# Messerschmitt Me 264 and Heinkel He 277.



## Lucky13 (Apr 2, 2007)

How would the Allied have reacted if the Germans had managed to put sufficient numbers of the Messerschmitt Me 264 and Heinkel He 277 into action in mid 1943? Would the fighters that they had, P-38's and P-47's be good enough to take on these giants? Would it had sped up production of the P-51? Would it changed things around in that way that we'd have seen the B-29 over Europe in 1944? Maybe even the F-4U Corsair? I imagine this now that the 264 and 277 would be as good as the B-17 and B-24 in effiency and reliability....


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## Parmigiano (Apr 2, 2007)

I guess that every bomber, no matter how big, would have been destroyed by fighters, unless properly escorted (and LW had no long range escort fighters in inventory, the best was the Fw190 with drop tank)

True that Allied fighters of 1943 (except the unreliabe Typhoon) did not carried proper armament to tackle heavy bombers, but it would have been easy to fit some extra-cannon, rockets etc. like the Germans did.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 2, 2007)

Any idea how the LW would have tackled the escort problem? Did they have ANY projects or such on longdistance fighter escorts? Or.....?


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## HealzDevo (Apr 4, 2007)

It could even have brought the B-36 Peacemaker off the drawing board early to act as a retailation bomber. Ie. you drop your bombs on me and I'll drop three times as many on you from one or more planes.


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## Civettone (Apr 4, 2007)

Let me point out that the He 177/277 and the Me 264 are completely different type of bombers. That is: the Me 264 was designed for long range, the Heinkels for medium range. 
So the question is first, what do you want to use those bombers for? Bombing Britain or the US? 
If it's the US, then there is no way you can escort them. The Germans tried with the Me 328 parasite fighter but that would never have worked.
If it's Britain, then the Germans don't need long-range escort fighters. They could station them close enough to Britain.

Kris


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 4, 2007)

HealzDevo said:


> It could even have brought the B-36 Peacemaker off the drawing board early to act as a retailation bomber. Ie. you drop your bombs on me and I'll drop three times as many on you from one or more planes.



I really dont think it would have sped it up any. The B-29s were good eneogh for the job.


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## Aggie08 (Apr 4, 2007)

I agree with Adler on that one, the B-29s could have been stationed dang near anywhere and still have been able to hit Germany.

For bomber duty, I would imagine the P-47 and P-38 because of their heavy armament. P-51's perhaps to take on the escort force if there was one. Bombing in such a manner would not have been a wise move at all for the Germans. They couldn't put out nearly as many heavy bombers as we could to compete with the heavy losses associated with hardcore heavy bombing.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 4, 2007)

Since the Me 264 was a long range bomber to be. What kind of escorts did they have in mind to protect them? Did they have any in the inventory that would have been acceptable to develop any further or would a completely new design been the best way forward?


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## Njaco (Apr 4, 2007)

Having a bomber and what to bomb are the questions. Given that the Germans had the long-range bomber with escorts what would they have hit? I think they would have missed the mark given their track record. Outcome would probably be the same.


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## Civettone (Apr 4, 2007)

Lucky, I already answered your question. 

_If it's the US, then there is no way you can escort them. The Germans tried with the Me 328 parasite fighter but that would never have worked.
If it's Britain, then the Germans don't need long-range escort fighters. They could station them close enough to Britain._

So no, the Germans didn't have long-range escort fighter projects. 
Kris


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## HealzDevo (Apr 10, 2007)

Well it depended on how bad things got. The B-36 Peacemaker was almost ready to go in 1941 save for the fact that Britain didn't fall. In a large scale bombing scale I could imagine that the scale would be focused on increasing damage per mission. As it was the B-36 Peacemaker would probably have made an even bigger dent on German morale and industry during 1943-1945 if it was available.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 11, 2007)

Where do you come up with this stuff? The B-36 was not almost ready to go in 1941. The US did not even have an operation jet fighter in 1941, so how were they going to have a bomber with 4 jet engines along with the 6 Prop engines?

*The USAF requested a design of a very long range bomber on April 11, 1941!* That does not mean that it was almost ready in 1941. The designs had just begun in 1941...

You are not going to get a plane of those proportions flying in a few months from design to first flight. Come on Healz use some common sence here.

The XB-36 did not even fly until 8 Aug 1946...

The first prototype failed to meet the standards place in the requirement of 1941 and it was plagued with problems. The first prototype to meet the standards did not even fly until 4 Dec. 1947.

Do some research man...


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## phouse (Apr 13, 2007)

As I understand it, the ME-264 was intended to be ditched in the ocean after bombing the US and their crews picked up by submarine. So to beat a dead horse, no escort plans were constructed.

As a retort to Civettone, perhaps they didn't need long range escort fighters but the LW probably should've sent planes with more staying power than the ME-190s they were so fond of!

By mid-1943 where this hypothetical is set, the Luftwaffe was already starting to feel the talent drain of the high attrition rates is suffered from the Battle of France onwards and with many of their pilots lost in the first BoB not returning, experience was a real factor as well. Assuming the manpower needs were there as well, one would imagine the Allied response would probably be a refit or some interceptor response.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 13, 2007)

phouse said:


> LW probably should've sent planes with more staying power than the ME-190s they were so fond of!



Bf 109 or Fw 190 not Me-190. I am sure that was just a typo though. 

As a defensive aircraft the 109 was just fine.


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## Civettone (Apr 13, 2007)

phouse said:


> As I understand it, the ME-264 was intended to be ditched in the ocean after bombing the US and their crews picked up by submarine. So to beat a dead horse, no escort plans were constructed.


I thought that was the story of the Ju 290. The Me 264 had a range of 11,000 km so should have been able to get back to France.



> As a retort to Civettone, perhaps they didn't need long range escort fighters but the LW probably should've sent planes with more staying power than the ME-190s they were so fond of!


I was also thinking it was a typo - and it probably is - but then again, it would be a inventive way to name German fighters in one 'word' the Me 190 




> By mid-1943 where this hypothetical is set, the Luftwaffe was already starting to feel the talent drain of the high attrition rates is suffered from the Battle of France onwards and with many of their pilots lost in the first BoB not returning, experience was a real factor as well. Assuming the manpower needs were there as well, one would imagine the Allied response would probably be a refit or some interceptor response.


I don't think the BoB or France still played a part in 1943. The Luftwaffe pilots were more experienced in 1943 than they were in 1940. 
The training of new pilots was indeed a problem but this was not recognized by the German leaders, especially Jesschonnek (sp?) and Göring. 


Anyway, I think the Amerika project was a damn good idea. With a couple of long-range bomber squadrons to reach random points along the American Eastcoast, the Americans would have to build radar stations and facilities along an at least thousand mile stretch and station fighter squadrons and AA battereis there. All resources which wouldn't have gone to the front. Even if this would have stopped any German bombers, those weapons would still stay in place even without a single German bomber crossing the Ocean. 

Kris


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## phouse (Apr 13, 2007)

Oops, typo indeed! I meant ME-109. 

As far as the ME-264 was concerned, only the reconnaissance versions were able to fly such a long range. Bombers would have required in flight refueling, a possibility nixed by Gen. Jeschonnek.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 13, 2007)

The Amerika Bomber project could have possibly only succeeded at first. Maybe 1 or 2 missions since the US had the production capacity to put up lots of AA and lots of fighters on the US East Coast and also would have put a lot of radar up real quickly. 

It really only was a pipe dream.

For a good read on the Amerika Bomber project read this book:

*Luftwaffe Over America - The Secret Plans to Bomb the United States in World War II* by Manfred Griehl


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## Civettone (Apr 13, 2007)

I agree Adler but my point was that those weapons and resources would have to stay there! 

Kris


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## phouse (Apr 13, 2007)

Civettone said:


> Anyway, I think the Amerika project was a damn good idea. With a couple of long-range bomber squadrons to reach random points along the American Eastcoast, the Americans would have to build radar stations and facilities along an at least thousand mile stretch and station fighter squadrons and AA battereis there. All resources which wouldn't have gone to the front. Even if this would have stopped any German bombers, those weapons would still stay in place even without a single German bomber crossing the Ocean.
> 
> Kris


This is a good point but I wonder if it would have made a significant difference for the United States? 

I had a fantastic book that I'd love to cite on the long lasting impact the first BoB had on the Luftwaffe but I lent it to a friend. I need to get it back. To paraphrase and summarize, the author asserted that there was a substantial talent drain on the Luftwaffe because they lost so many top-rated fliers over England and the Channel. Some of this talent would have been cycled around to instruction by 1943. I am unclear maybe someone can clarify but what year was it that the Luftwaffe started pulling instructors from their flight academies and placing them in front line service? 1944?


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## Civettone (Apr 13, 2007)

> only the reconnaissance versions were able to fly such a long range


_The range would have been, with a 3000 kg (6614 lbs) bomb load, 11600 km (7208 miles)_



> This is a good point but I wonder if it would have made a significant difference for the United States?


What's significant?
Fact is that those guns and fighters would not have been used in Europe. Seen on an economical scale it's also obvious that the Americans would have to assign more resources to set up a defence than the Germans would if they were to field a couple dozens semi-operational bombers. 



> the author asserted that there was a substantial talent drain on the Luftwaffe because they lost so many top-rated fliers over England and the Channel. Some of this talent would have been cycled around to instruction by 1943.


 I don't think there's any debate about that. The Luftwaffe would have been stronger had they not lost those pilots. But you claimed the Luftwaffe was feeling those losses in 1943 which I think is exaggerated. 
Also, the training problems the Luftwaffe suffered had nothing to do with a lack of experienced pilots available. They didn't demand their aces to give up their frontline positions which they should have done. Having more aces wouldn't have remedied their lack of experienced instructors.

Kris


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## phouse (Apr 14, 2007)

Yes, I made the mistake of reading the text and not the specs. I was wrong Civettone. 

My consideration with respect to the United States and resources spent, my assumption is that the bombers will be escortless and with the radar stations the US would invariably build, they would know about the bombers in time to have interceptors waiting for them. This assumes nominal numbers on Germany's part though. I'm going to reveal my episteme here but I think history is a series of contingencies but only within certain parameters. I doubt Germany could have done more than scare the US!

Finally, a comment on the Luftwaffe entering 1943 and manpower. The Luftwaffe from the Battle of France forward sustained attrition rates that hovered around 20%. During the Battle of Britain, according to "Logistics and the Battle of Britain" by Peter Dye, the number of servicable 109s may have dropped as low as 40%! Of course, this addresses material craft and not my assertion regarding pilots.

Since my book is on loan and my searches in Google are dry, I'm going to attempt to quote some statistics that may not be entirely accurate. If I recall correctly, only 1 in 5 Luftwaffe squadrons were operating above 80%, while most of the rest hovered around 60%-79%. I'm commenting to keep this conversation alive; once I retrieve my book with its charts and tables, I'll correct myself for sake of accuracy. I still feel that Germany, given its near constant loss from 1940 onward and inability to supply pilots at a rate to keep up with that loss that they would not have been able to set aside any considerable number of pilots to launch any sort of considerable bombing attack. Just look at the train wreck of the second Battle of Britain!


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## machine shop tom (Apr 14, 2007)

As a point of interest, in early 1944, a Ju390 made a trip to a point some 12 miles from the US coast, north of NYC. I think that if any plane, Ju390, Me264 or whatever, had dropped bombs on the US mainland, there would have been a big re-deployment of forces to counter this threat. It wouldn't have to have been a terribly effective bombing to have been a rude wake-up call that the US wasn't untouchable. If you look at the resources used to keep the Tirpitz bottled up, it isn't hard to realize how much out-of-proportion the use of resources would have been to counter a perceived bomber threat.

tom


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## Civettone (Apr 14, 2007)

Phouse, you're absolutely right that Germany was not capable of launching a credible bombing offensive against the US. In fact, no bomber fleet would have been able to cross the ocean, attack targets and lose sustainable numbers, until the arrival of supersonic bombers. 

But like I said, it would have been a good investment for the Germans though of course it wouldn't have changed the outcome. But let it be clear that the bombing during Big Week had a much larger indirect effect than the actual destructions. Defence systems had to be enlarged and improved, shelters had to be build, further decentralization of production, construction of underground facilities, relocation to the east, ... which swallowed up large amounts of resources and manpower. 

Your comments on the Luftwaffe during and after the BoB are interesting though I wonder if they belong in this thread.


Tom, the Ju 390 story is well known on the internet. Unfortunately it's not supported by any flight data of the specific unit and probably never happened. Although a Ju 390 could be modified to fly to NY and back, it would probably not have been able to carry bombs. But especially the 12 miles from NY is a bit weird. Once you're that close you can just as well go the distance and try to get back with economical flying. 12 miles isn't enough to abort if your entire mission is over 5000 miles. 

Oh, and the Ju 290 didn't fly to Manchuria either.

Kris


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## plan_D (Apr 14, 2007)

Any long-range German bombers put into service in 1943 would have been used against the Russian industry, it would not have been wasted on mindless U.S attacks or suicidal daylight raids on Great Britain. 

Remember now, the Bf 109 did not have the effective range to escort bombers any further north than London so British industry was safe from escorted bombers; those that went up without escort would be met by Spitfire IXs for an uncomfortable ride, which did carry cannon. In the event, Hurricane IIC and IV would be made ready for interception duties with four 20mm. This is on top of the USAAF readily available for action in Great Britain. 

But that is all null and void, as I said, the Luftwaffe would use its bomber force against the Ural industry as it would finally be in range.


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## phouse (Apr 14, 2007)

Civettone said:


> But like I said, it would have been a good investment for the Germans though of course it wouldn't have changed the outcome. But let it be clear that the bombing during Big Week had a much larger indirect effect than the actual destructions. Defence systems had to be enlarged and improved, shelters had to be build, further decentralization of production, construction of underground facilities, relocation to the east, ... which swallowed up large amounts of resources and manpower.
> 
> Kris


Good point. I'll drop any further defense of my assertion regarding manpower in 1943 to keep this thread relatively on topic.


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## machine shop tom (Apr 14, 2007)

Civettone said:


> .........
> Tom, the Ju 390 story is well known on the internet. Unfortunately it's not supported by any flight data of the specific unit and probably never happened. Although a Ju 390 could be modified to fly to NY and back, it would probably not have been able to carry bombs. But especially the 12 miles from NY is a bit weird. Once you're that close you can just as well go the distance and try to get back with economical flying. 12 miles isn't enough to abort if your entire mission is over 5000 miles.
> 
> Oh, and the Ju 290 didn't fly to Manchuria either.
> ...



I'll have to debate you on this one, Kris. My source is the book "The Warplanes Of The Third Reich" by William Green. This book was copyrighted in 1970 and was meticulously researched for years before being published. It also predates the internet by decades.

From the book: "In January 1944, the Ju 390 V2 was delivered to Fernaufklarungs-Gruppe 5 at Mont de Marson, south of Bordeaux, for operational evaluation. The Ju 390 V2 carried sufficient fuel for an endurance of 32 hours, and after a few short-distance flights, the aircraft flew from Mont de Marsan to a point some 12 miles from the U.S. coast, north of New York, returning successfully to its base."

This feat is also mentioned in the book "The Encyclopedia Of Aircraft Of WWII", published in 2004. 

Of the Manchurian trip, Green's tome says: "........(In the spring of 1944) three aircraft were recalled to Germany where, within 48 hours at Finsterwalde, they had been completely stripped of armour and armament, fitted with two additional 550 Imp. gal. fuel tanks to increase the total fuel load to 5,235 Imp. gal. From Odessa and Mielec, the aircraft (Ju 290A-4s or A5s) were flown non-stop to Manchuria with special cargoes, refuelling and returning to Mielec with strategic materials that were in critical supply in Germany."

I see no reason to doubt these two resources, especially Green's.

tom


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## bigZ (Apr 15, 2007)

I cant see the introduction of a small number of 4 engine bombers significantly effect the war. It would only be a small force due to the lack of suitable materials. 

I also agree with Alder on how long it takes to introduce new aircraft designs. Their are exceptions such as the He 162. Just how many new types of aircraft did the Germans actually manage to introduce operationally during WWII not including upgrades to existing designs?

Even if they do bomb the US the effect on the course of the war will be slight. I also cant see them doing significate damage to factories in the Urals.

In reality the 4 main points that stopped Germany having a strategic 4 engine bombing force was the lack of materials/economy the death of General Wever and being a contintental power the priority to defend itself before it could bring a strategic bomber force into play.


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## Civettone (Apr 15, 2007)

plan_D said:


> Any long-range German bombers put into service in 1943 would have been used against the Russian industry


Plan_D, I have to disagree with you. Speer is very very clear on this: even as late as 1944 Speer tried to get the Luftwaffe to attack industrial targets in Russia. To be exact, it was the power central near Moscow. He was convinced this would have had an effect as he noticed what the American air raids did to 'his' industry. 
Yet he failed to get a fleet together as the army leaders kept using bombers for tactical missions. 

On the other hand, the Amerika project was very real and Hitler kept pushing for it. Even in 1945 Amerika bombers were being designed and built! 
Horten Ho XVIII - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> My source is the book "The Warplanes Of The Third Reich" by William Green.


I know, Tom. 
Green is the first to mention this story and many (lesser) publications and websites have simply copied the story. Yet I can assure you that no flight ever took place. Probably it was just one guy mentioning such a flight and this story getting a life of its own.
Too bad it didn't happen...

Kris


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## Civettone (Apr 15, 2007)

> I cant see the introduction of a small number of 4 engine bombers significantly effect the war.


Well, if they carry an atomic bomb, I can.
But like I said, bombing the US would not significantly effect the war. Yet it seems clear that it would have lead to less American fighters, guns and other resources fighting in Europe. 

It would only be a small force due to the lack of suitable materials. 



> I also agree with Alder on how long it takes to introduce new aircraft designs.


I do to but that doesn't seem to have been the question. The starting point of this thread is that Germany has these bombers ready for production. 



> In reality the 4 main points that stopped Germany having a strategic 4 engine bombing force was the lack of materials/economy


That's not true. The Germans built over a thousand 4 engined bombers. That's enough to have a strategic bombing force. 



> the death of General Wever


This is an outdated vision. In fact, in the days of Wever there were no bombers powerful enough to reach the Urals. What Wever had in mind, was unrealistic. 



> and being a contintental power the priority to defend itself before it could bring a strategic bomber force into play.


What do you base this on? How do you see Germany was prioritizing defence. I think it's clear that the Germans believed in strategic bombing: just see what they did in Guernica, Rotterdam, Warsaw, London, ... 
They made a deliberate choice to build multifunctional bombers instead of dedicated heavy bombers. 

Kris


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 15, 2007)

Civettone said:


> I agree Adler but my point was that those weapons and resources would have to stay there!
> 
> Kris



Does not matter. The US had the production capacity to build more and more than what they were doing. The weapons and resources that were used to defend the east coast would only have been a fraction.

Not much would have been required to shoot down the few bombers anyhow. It is not like they would have had fighter cover escorting them from Germany to the US....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 15, 2007)

Civettone said:


> [
> What's significant?
> Fact is that those guns and fighters would not have been used in Europe. Seen on an economical scale it's also obvious that the Americans would have to assign more resources to set up a defence than the Germans would if they were to field a couple dozens semi-operational bombers.



Again the US production capacity was so large it would not have mattered.


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## machine shop tom (Apr 15, 2007)

Civettone said:


> .......
> I know, Tom.
> Green is the first to mention this story and many (lesser) publications and websites have simply copied the story. Yet I can assure you that no flight ever took place. Probably it was just one guy mentioning such a flight and this story getting a life of its own.
> Too bad it didn't happen...
> ...



Which flight? The trans-Atlantic flight or the Manchurian trip?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree (why can't political and religious leaders do that?). I really can't prove that it they happen (although Green does mention the groups that the planes came from and approximate dates and such) and your proof that it didn't happen seems to satisfy you. Kinda like the Bigfoot thing, the proof is hard to pin down.

tom


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## bigZ (Apr 15, 2007)

Civettone said:


> Well, if they carry an atomic bomb, I can.
> But like I said, bombing the US would not significantly effect the war. Yet it seems clear that it would have lead to less American fighters, guns and other resources fighting in Europe.
> 
> I do to but that doesn't seem to have been the question. The starting point of this thread is that Germany has these bombers ready for production.
> ...



Yes you are quite right in stating this thread was about the 264 and the 277 being operational in 1943 although they would have stuggled to became operational by 45 if they hadn't of been cancelled. But I cant succesfully argue a point if you slap on another what if (German Atomic bomb?). Japan was already bombing the US during WWII how much resources where given to that? OK so they where only balloon bombs mostly blowing up trees on the West coast. 

I would be intrested to see a breakdown of the 1000 bombers constructed. 20,000 Spits where produced but it didn't mean Fighter Command could use them all in the BOB. 

Most of my other points regard the failure of the URAL Bomber and the hope the Luftwaffe could tack on a strategic bomber command in the 40's. Pre war Germany considered France an imediate threat. Its no use having a strategic bomber force if the enemy has overrun the country. This is not to say Germany did not realise the potential just the prioty. Yes 2 engined bomber can perform both strategic missions as long as the target is in range. 

Before the war the German economy was close to collapse, strategic materials had to be imported. During the war resources where freed up with the conquests(especially France). Fortunately they where wasted. An example would be 44 fighter production and the immense increase in output for the same amount of Ali used 2 years previously. Out of all the ocuppied counties only Czechovakia made any significant impact on Luftwaffe aircraft production. If the 264 went into production the 262 would have had to be dropped. 

PS anyone tell me how to reply directly to each individual point in a persons post?


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## Denniss (Apr 15, 2007)

AFAIR it's not even proven that the V2 was actually build or even finished/made ready for flight operations.

I remember seeing a comment somewhere the V2 was either not built or it was parked somewhere on an airfield without engines.


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## Civettone (Apr 16, 2007)

BigZ, I agree with what you say but I don't really see your point. What are you getting at?

Your comment on the German economy is flawed as a war economy cannot collapse on its own. The Germans managed to build a thousand He 177s, so they could also have built a thousand Me 264s. This would result in about a 100 operational bombers which is sufficient to speak of a bomber force.

I agree with Adler that it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the war but that's not really the point either as not a single thing the Germans could have done after 1941 could have changed the outcome. 




machine shop tom said:


> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree


Tom, I doubt if that's the way it goes. 
Green is the only one who mentioned this transatlantic flight. The records of the unit which was supposed to have flown this mission do not show this mission. The survivors of the unit do not remember any mission to NY. 
You are entitled to your opinion but sometimes there's no room for personal opinion when it comes to clear historical facts. 

Try browsing around on the internet for similar discussions. You'll see similar conclusions. (I hope )

Kris


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## davparlr (Apr 16, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Where do you come up with this stuff? The B-36 was not almost ready to go in 1941. The US did not even have an operation jet fighter in 1941, so how were they going to have a bomber with 4 jet engines along with the 6 Prop engines?
> 
> *The USAF requested a design of a very long range bomber on April 11, 1941!* That does not mean that it was almost ready in 1941. The designs had just begun in 1941...
> 
> ...



All correct except for the need for jets on the B-36. The first B-36s only had the six piston engines. The four jets were added in '49 to add dash speed.

Some B-36 comments, when all was well, the engineer stated "six turning, four burning".

Pilot to engineer, "shut down three!"
engineer to pilot, "which three?"

One of the men I used to work with flew on a B-36. Training missions typically flew out of Maine to Alaska over to Greenland and back to Maine. All at 230 kts!

Those bombers mentioned would not have expedited the B-36 or B-29. Bombers don't fight bombers. However, the fall of Great Britain would certainly have sped up the development of the B-36.

A strike on America would only be a gnat bite, as Alder has said. Impact to the American forces facing Germany would not have been noticable.

German war against Russia may have been impacted.


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## machine shop tom (Apr 16, 2007)

Civettone said:


> Tom, I doubt if that's the way it goes.
> Green is the only one who mentioned this transatlantic flight. The records of the unit which was supposed to have flown this mission do not show this mission. The survivors of the unit do not remember any mission to NY.
> You are entitled to your opinion but sometimes there's no room for personal opinion when it comes to clear historical facts.
> 
> ...



After spendiing a few hours researching this subject on-line, I would have to pretty much agree with you, Kris. At best, I would give it a 90% chance that it didn't happen. I'd have to leave a least a small chance that it did just because it can't be proven 100% that it didn't happen. But I don't think that it did.

Thank you for your patience.

tom


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## Civettone (Apr 16, 2007)

Not many people are willing to openly change their mind. Kudos to you. 

And for the record, I was very disappointed when people set me straight about the subject because I really wanted to believe it! 

Kris

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## wink104 (Sep 18, 2007)

Excellent discussion regarding the Me 264 V1. With all the what ifs going on I thought you may be interested in what finally happened to the project. On 18 July 1944, the 15th Air Force set out to destroy 70+ planes sighted at Memmingen under repair. 
They ran into bad weather, lost their escort and only half of the bombers reached the target zone, including the 483rd and 2nd bomb groups. Radio messages directed them to bomb alternative targets but these were unverified. 
On reaching the target, fierce opposition was engaged in the form of approx 200 Me 109's and FW 190's with heavy armor, nicknamed "Battering Rams". The 483rd lost 14 out of 26 planes, while the 2nd was spared, only losing one plane which managed to crash land in Switzerland. 
My Father, 1st Lt. William S. Winkler, and his crew were led to believe this was a "milk run" to draw the GAF away from troop movements on the front but it turned out to be a well defended developmental base. Post war intel revealed that the only operational Me 264 V1, as well as parts for the V2 and V3 were destroyed in the raid. 
That's war - luck, weather, life and death. The German war machine was crippled by allied daytime strategic bombing but at great cost. I'm sure glad my Dad had a horseshoe up his butt! 50 missions with no loss of crew or plane.
If I see any interest or activity on this thread, (which is a bit old by now,) I will gladly provide reference links.


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## drgondog (Sep 18, 2007)

plan_D said:


> Any long-range German bombers put into service in 1943 would have been used against the Russian industry, it would not have been wasted on mindless U.S attacks or suicidal daylight raids on Great Britain.
> 
> *Absolutely - to strike at US with the extra range/diminished payload - having to baiscally fly great circle route with bases in Iceland, Nova Scotia and Canade en route before actually getting to US - would risk a lot of valuable resources for little return - otherwise they are in range from UK/Scotland bases - not to mention placing Carrier Task Force further south.*
> 
> ...



Neither of those bombers would have been impervious to the 38, 47 or 51's even with existing basic armament - and would have suffered even worse losses than unescorted USAAF daylight raiders because of the huge 'hostile environment'. 

From an upgun perspective, if needed, the 51 wing was already stressed for four 20mm cannon before switching over to 50 caliber.

It would have been even tougher than B-29 ops over Pacific - equivalent to say, B-29s subject to fighter attacks from 500 miles outbound all the way to the target and back, instead of just the last 200 miles into and back from target..


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## Kurfürst (Sep 19, 2007)

plan_D said:


> Any long-range German bombers put into service in 1943 would have been used against the Russian industry, it would not have been wasted on mindless U.S attacks or suicidal daylight raids on Great Britain.
> 
> Remember now, the Bf 109 did not have the effective range to escort bombers any further north than London so British industry was safe from escorted bombers; those that went up without escort would be met by Spitfire IXs for an uncomfortable ride, which did carry cannon. In the event, Hurricane IIC and IV would be made ready for interception duties with four 20mm.



Just for the record, the variants Bf 109 from August 1940 onwards had plenty of reach to escort the Lutwaffe's bombers anywhere over Britiain's industrial centres. 

The droptank-less Emils had a range of 660 km, and that was enough to escort the bombers up to London in practical terms; when the E-7 appeared in August, capable of carrying a droptank, it extended that to 1300 km, ie. well past London. The 109F and later had a range of 1600 km and over with a single droptank. 

The F/G/K was actually they were capable of flying from Berlin to Eastern England _and back_, though that would be really pushing it and without any fighting or high consumption engine regimes, of course.

In a more realistic escort scenario, taking of from near Calais, Leeds or Manchester would within escort range for 109s and 190 by 1942, perhaps a bit further north, too.


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## Juha (Sep 19, 2007)

Are You sure, Kurfürst?
Why didn’t LW use that ability, for ex. once a while escorted daytime raid on Hull, fighters taking off from somewhere near Texel?
What is the longest bomber escort mission flown by 109Gs You are aware of?

TIA
Juha


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## Kurfürst (Sep 19, 2007)

I am 100% sure since I own detailed range tables for various Bf 109 types. Simply what you have in published sources for ie. the range of Bf 109G is the range are for maximum cruise speeds (at circa 600kph!), without the use of a droptank. That's pretty similiar to the range of the Bf 109E, but that is comparing apples and oranges since published 109E figures are for econo cruise speeds w/o droptanks.

As for longest mission, I have no idea. I've never seen any book stating distances or for that matter detail daily German sorties in such depth. Did you?

As for the Western Front, there were very few German bombers stationed there after May 1941, KG 40 boys mainly, but they were busy with anti-shipping operations. Simply to put, no bombers to be escorted in the West. Not sure about Eastern operations.


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## Juha (Sep 19, 2007)

Kurfürst
I know the Finnish actions, without droptank. I'm surprised that there are no info on LW escort missions, one gets easily some idea on USAAF or RAF escort missions and from those one can draw at least rough estimates on their escort capabilities. And ferry range is definetely different thing than combat range.

"Simply to put, no bombers to be escorted in the West"

Not so simple, for example KG 2 was in West, equipped with Do 217s which was after all designed as heavily armed day bomber. And there were other bomber units. So bombers were there. So question remains, why LW didn't utilise their fighters long range for escort missions, why they didn't try surprise day bombing attacks on fringe targets like Hull, which they considered important target for their night attacks?

Juha


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## Kurfürst (Sep 19, 2007)

I am not sure about what period we talk about KG 2... as for the Do 217, it was also used as a nightfighter, and it was used a lot as a anti-shipping bomber because of it's capability to lfit heavy warloads. 

As for daylight attacks, I presume the LW would not be so keen to basically restart the BoB, but only with a fraction of a fighter and bomber force. What, 100, maybe 200 bombers and 2-300 fighters in entire France at the time, maximum..?

Most bombers were on the East, where the LW and VVS was exchanging some very serious, though often neglected tonnage of bombs, but it's difficult to say anything based on those missions. My impression being that most of those were about hopping 100 km behind the front, bombing some supply depot or railway station, making but a fraction of use of the bombers range.. as the Urals would be in unreachable distances to _any_ bomber at the time, Axis or Allied.


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## Glider (Sep 20, 2007)

Its also fair to point out that the forces available for defending the UK were far stronger than in the BOB whilst the bombers (with the exception of the Do217) were very similar to those of the BOB being based on the He111 and the Ju88.
The Hurricane had was inferior to the 109E, had been replaced by the Spitfire which was a good match for the 109, plus of course the increased number of fighters available to the RAF resulted in a much stronger fighter defence.


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## Juha (Sep 20, 2007)

Kurfürst
one Gruppe of KG 2 began operations with Do 217Es in July 41, later that year stab and another Gruppe arrived. After that to mid 1944 there were IIRC at least Stab and two Gruppen ready in action in West. Later KG 2 got Do 217Ks and Ms. And as KG specified it was a bomber unit and yes it also flew anti-shipping operations. But LW had in West available a new day bomber from July 41 onwards.

At least KG 55 flew now and then night attacks against Soviet munitions factories.

Kurfürst and Glider 
I didn’t mean a new BoB but random attacks on specific targets near coast or at coast from unexpected directions. British may well have got wind of those plans through Ultra but German planning staff didn’t know that or even suspected that. If Bf 109Fs/Gs and FW 190As had the capability to escort bombers distances Kurfürst claimed that might have looked a good idea for LW planners to keep part of Spitfires away from South England and so away from attacking targets in Northern France. Even a couple of attacks say with a Gruppe of Do 217s and two-three Gruppen of fighters might well have been enough from that purpose.


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## Glider (Sep 20, 2007)

Its an idea certainly and they may have got away with it once but not twice.


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## Kurfürst (Sep 20, 2007)

I think the LW was rather busy supporting 3 million German troops instead of splitting it's forces to do harassing raids on the British. What would these raids achieve, anyway? The situation would be all the same. From the German POV, Britain was neutralized as a threat (=it could hope to land in France or bomb Germany in the daylight with success), at least for the time being.

And I don't make 'claims', the ranges of the Bf 109F/G/K and the FW 190A are clearly stated in their range tables. Those has been posted some time ago in this board. It might be interesting to calculate an 'escort' range, but it depends on the mission profile and engine regimes. 

Perhaps such 'standards' are available for say, Mustangs, to get a comparable data...?


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## Juha (Sep 20, 2007)

Quote: "_I think the LW was rather busy supporting 3 million German troops instead of splitting it's forces to do harassing raids on the British. What would these raids achieve, anyway? "_

Nobody was talking on splitting LW forces, KG 2 was in West all the time! Idea was what LW could do to split FC assests. And anyway KG 2 sent single Do 217s on daylight "cloud cover" harasing missions over England. I thing they were rather useless in military terms put probably flyed to keep British on their toes. Now a daylight attack on Gruppe strenght against for ex. Hull would probably rose a public outcry in GB and awoke demands to fighter protection to all areas under potential threat at scale capable to prevent accurate bombing. And of course it would have been excellent propaganda victory and a boost to German morale.

Juha


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## Glider (Sep 20, 2007)

Juha said:


> Quote: "_I think the LW was rather busy supporting 3 million German troops instead of splitting it's forces to do harassing raids on the British. What would these raids achieve, anyway? "_
> 
> Nobody was talking on splitting LW forces, KG 2 was in West all the time! Idea was what LW could do to split FC assests. And anyway KG 2 sent single Do 217s on daylight "cloud cover" harasing missions over England. I thing they were rather useless in military terms put probably flyed to keep British on their toes. Now a daylight attack on Gruppe strenght against for ex. Hull would probably rose a public outcry in GB and awoke demands to fighter protection to all areas under potential threat at scale capable to prevent accurate bombing. And of course it would have been excellent propaganda victory and a boost to German morale.
> 
> Juha



Its probably more likely to be a disaster with heavy losses and be a morale boost to the British public.


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## Juha (Sep 21, 2007)

Maybe, if FC would have got a fore warning by SIGINT but that was something that LW planning staffs were not counting on. In 1942 LW knew as RAF that best way to surprise attack was low level approach and last minute climb to bombing altitude. I’m not sure how well FC was prepared to defer well escorted bigger bomber formation outside South England, at least they were used to fight against single nuisance bombers or small unescorted bomber formations on anti-shipping missions.
Surprise or sneak attack is what I’m thinking of and a one how a LW planning staff would have seen the possibilities not the real life situation with Ultra and so on. Hitler/LW was hoping for some sort propaganda stunt IMHO that was the main reason behind for ex. Ju 86 high altitude bombing raids, military significance of those flights with one 250kg bombload wasn’t very big.


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## Kurfürst (Sep 21, 2007)

Propaganda stunts could be done much safer, and cheaper by Jabo raids, in fact that's what they did. Anyway, we're sailing to rather off topic waters.


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## Juha (Sep 21, 2007)

Yes, but sailing is fun. Anyway, You might not see it but I’m rather sure that Herr Hitler, whose thinking seemed to be rather revenge oriented, would have liked some more spectacular response than some small-scale fighter bomber attacks to for ex first USAAF heavy bomber attacks. And if successful its propaganda value would have been in different magnitude and it would have given Goebbels’ machine extra boost for weeks.
But my main point is that neither I nor You can remember any use of the long range escort capacity of German single-engine fighters that you claim they had. Not even over Mediterranean or over Barents Sea where unescorted LW torpedobombers were time to time badly mauled by fighter escorts of convoys.


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## Clay_Allison (Dec 28, 2008)

The P-38s and 40s were at their best at high altitude in any case and had very potent armament. At worst, had these planes failed to deliver the KO punch, it might have spurred the P-63 into production toting that 37mm cannon.


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## Kiwikid (May 21, 2009)

Civettone said:


> > Originally Posted by phouse View Post
> > As I understand it, the ME-264 was intended to be ditched in the ocean after bombing the US and their crews picked up by submarine. So to beat a dead horse, no escort plans were constructed.
> 
> 
> ...



Referring back to an old post the plan to attack New York and then ditch in the sea involved the use of a Staffel of FW200 Kondors and crews parachuting at sea near some U-boats. I rather suspect the Kreigsmarine were not the least interested.

The Me-264 was designed to the same specifications as the Ju-390 for an aircraft to shadow convoys and call in He-177 aircraft with anti ship glide bombs. When you closely study the RLM literature you begin to realise that the Amerika bomber and the specifications for an ultra long range patrol aircraft were related, but probably different 

The Me264 was rejected by RLM as a candidate for the Amerika bomber because it required a 2,400m runway at MTOW. It was intended to operate to USA from an airport near Le Havre. 

The Ju-390V1 (RC+DA) had a bomb aimer's gondola and was most likely the longe range maritime patrol variant. The Ju-390V2 (GH+UK) which lacked dorsal turret,s or a ventral gondola thus it was the transport version. 

The Ju-390V3 which never made it off the production hall at Dessau was intended to be the bomber version of the Ju-390. It was intended to carry three Kamikaze Me-328 parasite aircraft slung two under the outboard wings and one under the fuselage. The Ju-390 was too slow to survive over New York even against anti-aircraft fire, forgetting the problem of US fighters. That was why the Me-328 was considered.

Of real interest to me was an article from the New York Times which mentioned 



> RAF officers said today that the Germans had nearly completed preparations for bombing New York from a "_colossal air field_" near Oslo. "_Forty giant bombers with a 7,000 mile range were found on this base - the largest Luftwaffe field I have ever seen_," one officer said. "
> 
> They were a new type bomber developed by Heinkel. They were now being dismantled for study. German ground crews said the planes were held in readiness for a mission to New York.



Clearly the RAF officer quoted was wrong about their range, but recently on 2 April 2005 an He-177 pilot Peter Brill disclosed at a conference in Sabadell that he was selected for special training with other crews to perform a mission to New York in late 1943. The training comprised astro-navigation and night flying at an e-stelle which trained night fighter pilots. 

I also suspect personally that the forty Heinkels spoken of were early model He-177 converted at Prague Rusnye to He-277B5 standard. The first He-277V1 was converted from an He 177A-3/R2 airframe with four DB 603A engines (used by the long nosed Focke-Wulf Ta 152) The He 277V1 flew at Vienna-Schwechat in the closing months of 1943. These aircraft had a 6,000km range. 

The problem is that forty airframes exceeds the recorded production of He-277, however it would explain the disappearance of early He-177 airframes.


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## Juha (May 21, 2009)

Hello Kiwikid
The problems are, 
the number of He 177B-5s/He 277s produced seemed to be 4, prototypes He 177 V101-104 and
It seems that there was no He 177s/277s in Norway in May 45, see Luftwaffe in Norway, by clicking Tables 1 – 3 one can see number of LW planes in Norway in May 45.

Juha


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## Kiwikid (May 21, 2009)

As I said...



> The problem is that forty airframes exceeds the recorded production of He-277, however it would explain the disappearance of early He-177 airframes.



....however other sources talk of eight He-277 built. Stammkennzeichen records themselves are confusing since some He-177 construction numbers identify the same airframes as different versions indicating rebuilds of airframes. There were no records of He-277 in Czechoslovakia in April 1945 either, however at least one was destroyed at Cheb (Eger) on 11 April 1945 by 336th Fighter Group US 9th Air Force and three He-177A-5 were destroyed at Prague Rusnye. A number of He-177 not lost in action had to be evacuated somewhere.

http://www.fronta.cz/fotogalerie/cheb-letiste-kveten-1945

It becomes harder to dismiss the story out of hand now that an He-177 pilot has publicly stepped forward to confirm such a mission was planned.


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## Juha (May 22, 2009)

Hello Kiwikid
The info of only 4 He 177B-5s/He 277s is from the newest edition of Griehl’s Dressel’s He 177, 277, 274. And they wrote that they had unlimited access to the archives of Heinkel (the firm) and that they had also used extensively other archives. But it’s of course impossible to be 100% sure. 

Quote: “A number of He-177 not lost in action had to be evacuated somewhere.”

I don’t know if they were in strict sense evacuated but Allied forces found He 177s in many places many were partly wrecked/dismantled and probably many were “reduced to produce”. Also in Griehl’s Dressel’s book are photos on some of those wrecks incl. also at least 2 photos on a wreck at Prague Rusnye. 

But it seems that not a one was found in Norway.

IIRC when He 177 units were disbanded, 40 He 177s were ordered to kept ready for possible further operational use.

Juha


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## Kiwikid (May 22, 2009)

Juha,

I will not name him, but a person associated with Griehl and many authors writing works on advanced Luftwaffe projects told me last November that in order to gain access to controlled archives they have to consent to having their works vetted for German Foreign relations implications. The German government is still sensitive about the publishing of plans to attack USA and applies extraordinary pressure to Griehl and other authors not to publish everything. That means we are left with occasional uncontrolled utterances by veterans who suddenly make disclosures.







Peter Brill the He-177 pilot mentioned earlier, is reported saying the following in 2005 at the conference at Sabadell:



> Der Zeitzeuge AK sah vier He-177 in Sprottau stehen, als er Ende 1943 zur Luftwaffe eingezogen wurde und zum Jagdflieger ausgebildet werden sollte. Die unter Tarnnetzen verborgenen Maschinen hätten über einen riesigen Bombenschacht verfügt, in dem ein Auto Platz gehabt hätte. Nach Amerika im Einwegflug sollte auch die moderne He-277 B-5/R2 fliegen. Bis zum 3. By 3 Juli 1944 konnten noch neun Exemplare des von vier DB603 oder Jumo 222 (spätere Nachrüstung) angetriebenen Höhenfernbombers hergestellt werden. Bei einer Dienstgipfelhöhe von 15000 m konnte die > He-277 B-5 < 2500 kg Bomben über 6000 km (ohne Zusatztanks) transportieren und im Bahnneigungsflug problemlos 700 km/h erreichen



He said the aircraft which he was intended to fly to New York were last seen at Sprottau in late 1943. They were designated as AK-177 and had huge bomb bays big enough for a car. He called them the hidden Tarnnetz machines.

He also said said by July 1944 there were nine copies built of the He-277 B-5/R2 to fly one way to New York with DB603 engines later to be replaced by Jumo 222. These He-277 B-5 aircraft had extra fuel capacity built in for over 6000 kilometres with a 2,500kg load and a service ceiling of 15,000m. 

Steve Cranton's "The Wing of the Luftwaffe" (1972) cites from documents captured in Austria that




> Allied intelligence officers strongly believed that between 8 and 10 He 277 were produced



Hitler’s Last Weapons, Josef Garlinski, Magnum Books 1979 is another reference.
In addition there were also three H-277 prototypes. V-1 to V-3. 






*He-343 Jet bomber at Oslo 1945*

The Allies also discovered in Norway a really interesting jet bomber being developed in a secret project at Oslo called the Riesenbomber which associates it with Komplex Reise near Swidnica (Schweidnitz) where a jet aircraft called the V-7 project was under construction. This aircraft was the four engined He-343. An exampled was taken back to the United States for ultra secret flight testing. 

*RAF 38 Group*

Final comment on Oslo. I have located an 85 year former RAF fitter from 38 Group. He was at Gardermoen near Oslo in 1945, so I have emailed him to see if he can settle the question. I will post any reply that I get. Hopefully that will settle the question once and for all.


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## Kiwikid (May 23, 2009)

In relation to the construction of aircraft near Oslo does anybody know details about the Oslo aircraft factory bombed by 51 RAF Lancasters and 4 Mosquitos of No 5 Group, on 28 April 1944


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## Juha (May 23, 2009)

Hello Kiwikid
Ah, conspiracy theory, now your worst hurdle is, that there seems to have been no He 177s/277s among the planes at Gardemoen. And that is Norwegian info with no connection to BRD. You needed something more substantial than memories 60-65 years after the fact to overturn that. For ex. 38 Groups reports from 1945 etc. British made inventories of a/c found at captured air fields, I have seen one which gives info on planes found in Denmark, I might have seen one on those found in Southern Norway but I have not time to try to locate a possible copy of it from my piles.

BTW He 177 V101 – 103 = He 277 V1 – V3.

Juha


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## Juha (May 23, 2009)

Hello Kiwikid
A bit more
In the Norwegian page one source mentioned is S.A.I.B. Report No 1, it might well be a British inventory report on a/c found in Norway.

And
Quote: “The German government is still sensitive about the publishing of plans to attack USA and applies extraordinary pressure to Griehl and other authors not to publish everything.”

I have a bit difficult to follow the logic here. First of all the plans are known at least since summer 45, even the term Amerika bomber gives away the idea. I have seen at least 100 pages written on Amerika bomber projects, even if haven’t read all of them. So the plan has not been secret for at least 64 years. We also know other German plans to attack USA, why only this one, in fact a plan for a legal military operation, would be so hush-hush when it is already well known, I mean the plan to bomb USA eastern coast cities, when the gov of Germany had not made as effective measures to suppress info on really criminal acts of Nazi Germany?

Juha


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## krieghund (May 23, 2009)

Check out my previous posts regarding Special He177 aircraft in Norway

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/bombers-bomb-nyc-16062.html


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## Juha (May 24, 2009)

Krieghund and Kiwikid
if you are really interested on possibility of He 177s in Norway You might well ask info on the subject at
Aviation History Society Norway Forum • Index page

There seems to be not much trafic at the forum, but the people running the site had very good knowledge on LW in Norway, they have published excellent books on the subject.

Juha


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 24, 2009)

Juha said:


> o attack USA and applies extraordinary pressure to Griehl and other authors not to publish everything.”
> 
> I have a bit difficult to follow the logic here. First of all the plans are known at least since summer 45, even the term Amerika bomber gives away the idea. I have seen at least 100 pages written on Amerika bomber projects, even if haven’t read all of them. So the plan has not been secret for at least 64 years. We also know other German plans to attack USA, why only this one, in fact a plan for a legal military operation, would be so hush-hush when it is already well known, I mean the plan to bomb USA eastern coast cities, when the gov of Germany had not made as effective measures to suppress info on really criminal acts of Nazi Germany?
> 
> Juha



That is because the German government is not sensitive about the subject of bombing the United States. There are tons of publications on the matter. I have several books on the topic as well.


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## drgondog (May 24, 2009)

Kiwikid said:


> As I said...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Propellorhead (May 5, 2010)

Actually the Steinbock raids from January to April 1944 over Britain could have inflicted real rewards had they been sustained but cuts in high octane fuel supplies stymied these diving night raids.

The He 277 had sufficient service ceiling, 47,000 ft, that had the He-277 been used in level day raids over the UK in sufficient numbers they might too have had an appreciable impact. The focus on bombing New York made no sense unless they had the A-bomb.

Irrespective of the naysayers, it is pretty evident whether or not they managed to develop nuclear weapons it was certainly an intention behind plans to attack New York. 

Alex Baum, a former German speaking French inmate of Buchenwald, wheo went on to Penemunde and the central works, witnessed and heard Wherner von Braun discuss rockets as the "ultimate weapon" that would destroy the United States and everything else. He spoke in front of Baum about the Amerika rocket.

It was noted by Churchill's advisors during the war that it made no sense to spend so much on developing the V-2 only to deliver 980kg of high explosives.


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## bobbysocks (May 5, 2010)

prop...you do know this thread is a year old....dont you?


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## Propellorhead (Jul 9, 2010)

bobbysocks said:


> prop...you do know this thread is a year old....dont you?



Sorry Bobbysocks but the topic interests me. Surely it's preferable to opening a whole new topic.

The He-277 incidentally would not have needed escort fighters since no fighter in the Allied inventory could intercept the He-277 at it's 49,200ft service ceiling.

The ultra high altitude Spitfire XIV (H) was the best available and that topped out at about 44,600ft. Actual experience with the Spitfire type VB showed that a real problem with high altitude interception was that ice formed on ammunition belts jammed the guns even when engine heat was ducted into gun bays. 

The only prospect of stopping a raid by He-277 lay in getting them on the ground at their bases or in their climb to altitude over Germany.


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## Njaco (Jul 9, 2010)

Could a YB-17 been used to take out a high-flying 277? just curious.


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## Glider (Jul 10, 2010)

This is going to sound like a silly question but does anyone know if the He277 actually made it to approx 50,000ft. I say this as very little was known about flying at those altitudes and the difficulties that would be encountered. She may well had had a design altitude of that magnitude but that isn't the same as achieving it.

The RAF had been experimenting with high altitude flight from the late 1920's and their best WW2 fighters topped out at around 45,000 ft.
The RAF had a research aircraft that reached 54,000 ft in 1937 and the Italians were close behind reaching over 51,000 ft but I am not aware of any German aircraft or company that had this experience. Basically if the RAF with experience of high altitude flight struggled to exceed 45,000 ft why should the Luftwaffe with no experience in this specialised field, beat this with ease.

Germany had an excellent understanding of the physical stresses of high altitude flight largely due to the work of Theodore Benzinger who was a leader in aviation medicine during the 1930's iro high altitude flights but his work (I believe) was ground based using decompression chambers. What I am unsure about is the practical research into high level aircraft, test planes and aerodynamics. It is of course true to say that Germany had a good lead in high speed aerodynamics but this is a different speciality.

If anyone has any information into this it would be appreciated as it seams to me that to go from almost nothing to a production bomber capable of flying higher than any fighter is to put it mildly a tall order.


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## riacrato (Jul 10, 2010)

Just as with the Ju 86 there would've eventually been fighters to deal with the threat. And bombing from 50,000 ft means bombing london and hoping to hit something vital or to kill as many civilians as you can. It would've changed nothing in the bigger picture.


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## Propellorhead (Jul 21, 2016)

Lucky13 said:


> How would the Allied have reacted if the Germans had managed to put sufficient numbers of the Messerschmitt Me 264 and Heinkel He 277 into action in mid 1943? Would the fighters that they had, P-38's and P-47's be good enough to take on these giants?



Firstly Hitler did not issue a request for a heavy bomber to attack England until after an Allied raid on Munich outraged him. At a meeting between Hitler and various aircraft designers held at Obersalzberg in May 1943, Hitler demanded an offensive bomber able to strike over Britain day and night. Because Heinkel had discreetly continued to work on the He-177 A-4 which Goering opposed, he was the only designer ready and able to offer a solution in the short time which Hitler demanded. 

The aircraft proposed had to have exceptional high altitude performance, able to avoid Allied fighter interception. For development purposes this aircraft was known as the He177 A-8, however in August 1943, with Hitler's blessings RLM re-designated this type as the He-277. He-277 testing began at the end of 1943 and production was ready to proceed in April 1944.

Six pre-production aircraft had been constructed by then at Reichlin, through converting He-177 A-6/R1 & R2 prototypes. It is claimed sixteen airframes had been completed and Stammkenzeichen had been issued for 25 of the type. These six pre-production aircraft underwent flight tests at Zwolfaxing. An air raid on Schwechat on 23 April 1944 interrupted production followed by an even worse raid of 26 June. The Emergency Fighter Program finally killed production on 3 July.

Most of the performance data cited for the He-277 comes from a paper study in 1943 which envisaged using the BMW801 engine which was totally unsuited for the high altitude bombing role. Thus the data people rely upon to understand He-277 capabilities are misleading, especially in relation to altitude performance.

The initial production version would have had either DB603A, DB603AA or DB603S engines. Two pre-production prototypes were flown with the DB603G engine proving a ceiling of 49,210ft. 

The DB603G engine was cancelled during 1944 in favour of the DB603N which began appearing in 1945. The capabilities of the He-277 therefore would have been tied to engine development had the He-277 bomber gone into service.

With DB603G or DB603N engines the He-277 was intended to reach 50,000ft making it invulnerable to Allied fighters.

The DB603A engine permitted a service ceiling of 36,600ft superior to the B-29 Superfortress, but not sufficient to protect them from Spitfires which could reach 42,000ft.


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## Propellorhead (Jul 21, 2016)

phouse said:


> As I understand it, the ME-264 was intended to be ditched in the ocean after bombing the US and their crews picked up by submarine. So to beat a dead horse, no escort plans were constructed.



They would not have expended such valuable aircraft & crews like that, but it was discussed as an option. One option Milch proposed was to create an airfield in Greenland and stage He-177 flights through an airstrip created at Mestersvig. 

Four Ju-290 A-0 series aircraft were converted as tankers with an intention of escorting attack bombers outbound. Various long range tests over the Atlantic performed by a Ju-390 with a Ju-290 tanker proved this only extended the bomber's range by about 30%. 

Another solution was the development of a hybrid 53 tonne Heinkel bomber with the fuselage of a Greif mated to the wings of an Me-264. By late 1944 a project began to develop this bomber with a 12,500km range carrying a 3t bomb load.


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## Vahe Demirjian (Dec 10, 2019)

Propellorhead said:


> Firstly Hitler did not issue a request for a heavy bomber to attack England until after an Allied raid on Munich outraged him. At a meeting between Hitler and various aircraft designers held at Obersalzberg in May 1943, Hitler demanded an offensive bomber able to strike over Britain day and night. Because Heinkel had discreetly continued to work on the He-177 A-4 which Goering opposed, he was the only designer ready and able to offer a solution in the short time which Hitler demanded.
> 
> The aircraft proposed had to have exceptional high altitude performance, able to avoid Allied fighter interception. For development purposes this aircraft was known as the He177 A-8, however in August 1943, with Hitler's blessings RLM re-designated this type as the He-277. He-277 testing began at the end of 1943 and production was ready to proceed in April 1944.
> 
> ...


The assertion that He 177A-8 was a cover designation for He 277 has been debunked --- see the Heinkel He 277 article at Wikipedia. Also, the He 277 had a much bigger wingspan than the He 177B.


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