# Martlet MkIII vs. Me109E



## Amsel (May 20, 2009)

How good of a matchup was this in your opinion?

EDIT: The MkI and II can be compared as well.


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## Vincenzo (May 20, 2009)

saw the first combat of Martlet in december 1940 imho it's more comparable with 109F


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## Vassili Zaitzev (May 20, 2009)

I think it's a good matchup. I'll have to look about the characteristics of the 109 E. The Martlett is the American F4F right?

Hang on, I think I started a thread on the F4F vs 109 a few years back. Let me see if I can find it. 

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/f4f-wildcat-vs-me-109-a-3447.html

Found it, the martlett might be mentioned in here, hope this helps.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 20, 2009)

Yeah the Martlett was just foreign ordered Wildcats. I think I would have to go with the 109 on this. I think the F4F would be a bit more rugged, but I believe the 109 would have the edge in maneuverability and climb.

Overall though I think that the 109E and the Wildcat are a pretty close matchup.


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## HoHun (May 20, 2009)

Hi Amsel,

>Martlett MkIII vs. Me109E

Hm, there are only two "t's" in "Martlet", I believe

>How good of a matchup was this in your opinion?

Very good, but only if you're in the Me 109.

Here is a quick comparison of a F4F-3 to a Me 109E with a DB 601A-1 with new-type supercharger for 4.5 km full throttle height, probably the most typical engine during the Battle of Britain.

A Me 109E with DB 601N obviously would be even more capable, of course.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


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## Doughboy (May 20, 2009)

I think it would be a good matchup.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (May 22, 2009)

I think, the 109 would win against the F4F. The Wildcat was tough, but it wasn't the best dogfighter, or really fast.

Though looking at the turn rates, the F4F wasn't half bad.


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## Cromwell (May 27, 2009)

I see the Martlet as more of a hack-fighter-bomber-recce type of plane. Good for launching off heaving ships on grey wet days at sea. Tough construction with a useful 6 gun pack of Fifty Cals.

The Me109 was more of a 'Blade' in my opinion - cutting through enemy formations.

In Das Boot I think that they were attacked by a Martlet (Wildcat) at one point and the commander says 'the British have stopped making mistakes' or something along those lines. I believe that this action took place in the Med.

Look here also :-

wikipedia.ketsujin.com/index.php/Grumman_Martlet_Mk_I


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## comiso90 (May 27, 2009)

I try to avoid comparing "navalized" aircraft with land based aircraft..

The fight would be closer if the Martlet was 400 lbs lighter...


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## FLYBOYJ (May 27, 2009)

This is a similar discussion as comparing the Bf 109 with the P-40. For the most part the Martlet is outclassed but if flown in situations where its stregths can be exploited, it could take on the -109.


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## Cromwell (May 27, 2009)

To be honest I might not have been fair about a couple of things :-

Firstly, I have a feeling that the Brit Wildcat aka 'Martlet' had FOUR guns not six - anyone care to comment ? (in the USA I think they fitted 4 or 6)

Also, it seems that the Martlet was quite a Nippy Little Critter when it comes to Turning and general Maneuverability.

The Cockpit of the Martlet was roomier than the Me109 with better visibility I believe. The Me109 was remarkably cramped especially if you consider the size of the average German citizen ! 

The controls of the Martlet were well harmonized, and it was a 'delight' to fly apparently.

Comments welcome - or is that Welkommen !


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## FLYBOYJ (May 27, 2009)

Cromwell said:


> Firstly, I have a feeling that the Brit Wildcat aka 'Martlet' had FOUR guns not six - anyone care to comment ? (in the USA I think they fitted 4 or 6)




Versions 
Mk I British version of the F4F-3; Four 05in machine guns 
Mk II British version of F4F-4 with folding wings, armour, self-sealing fuel tanks and six 0.5in machine 
guns 
Mk III 
Mk IV 
Mk V General Electric built FM-1 with R-1830-86 engine, four 0.5in machine guns with provision for 
underwing stores or: FM-2 with 1,350hp Wright R-1820-56 Cyclone, with taller vertical tail 
surfaces and on some aircraft provision for six 5-inch rockets under the wings


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## Cromwell (May 27, 2009)

Thanks Fly-boy ! Keep em coming.

I often feel that the Wildcat has had a' bad-rap' as you might say. It really was a plane for its time and no slouch either really from what I can read about it.

Lets face it - what did we have at this time - the Fulmar and the Swordfish (although even these did get results I must say).

This is a good source

The Grumman F4F Wildcat


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## Cromwell (May 27, 2009)

One Issue we are not addressing here :

Es becoming Fs and Gs

The Me109E would have been pretty much replaced or being replaced by the Me109F G after late 40/41 - which is when the Martlet was really getting in to service with the RN

So..... I am guessing the F version would have been faster, with large cal Cannon for knocking down bombers, but maybe not so good in a Turning / Dogfight situation ?

More comments please. Many thanks


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## Marcel (May 28, 2009)

FLYBOYJ said:


> This is a similar discussion as comparing the Bf 109 with the P-40. For the most part the Martlet is outclassed but if flown in situations where its stregths can be exploited, it could take on the -109.



This is true for most a/c of that era. If you have the energy and maybe the surprise factor on your side, almost any a/c can shoot down a much better performing opponent.



Cromwell said:


> One Issue we are not addressing here :
> 
> Es becoming Fs and Gs
> 
> ...



Well, the F was indeed faster. I believe it handled even better than the Emil, but it wasn't heavily armed. The E versions generally had 2 20mm canons, while the F usually had 1 cannon of 15 mm or 20 mm (depending on the sub version).
For the G version, your statement is correct, heavier, faster and better armed than the E, but probably less manoeuvrable.


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## Catch22 (May 28, 2009)

The Wildcat was one of those planes that was MADE by the pilot and the tactics they employed. While all planes are reliant on pilot skill to a large degree, there are many planes that had the capability to make mediocre pilots into really good ones, and the Bf 109 was one of those planes. The opposite is true of the Wildcat/Martlet. Really good pilots made it into a good plane, the plane just wasn't good enough itself to compete without somebody good in the cockpit.


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## renrich (May 28, 2009)

For what it is worth: Eric Brown-Wildcat versus 109F(doesn't specify which Wildcat) 'The Wildcat though faster and more maneuverable than the Sea Hurricane, was still some 60 mph slower than the German fighter. The lower the altitude the less the odds favored the 109F. The Wildcat also had a heavier punch to deliver.
Verdict; As a dogfighter the Wildcat was superior to the 109F but the initiative always lay with the German because of superior performance. At low altitudes the 109F had the edge over the Wildcat, but not by much."


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## merlin (Jun 12, 2009)

Although not easy, it is possible that the British could have placed their own order for the 'Wildcat' before the French Greek orders. Hence, they would be prepared for the aircraft's arrival, rather than the - what do we do with these - on takening over the French order..
If, these are carrier capable aircraft - then prior to going to the carriers with the FAA, they would be based ashore - e.g. Plymouth and Yeovil. Hence, quite possible to be involved with the Battle of Britain!!
If not, then with the RAF, could be mistaken by the Lw for the P-36!


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## renrich (Jun 12, 2009)

merlin, I have often thought about what you are speculating about. If the British had had a few squadrons of F4F3s, depending on the additions and modifications, (protected tanks, armor, etc.), and the pilots to man them, they could have been a potent addition to British air power during the BOB. If the pilots wasted in the Defiants had been trained in F4Fs they would probably have obtained good results. The early Wildcats, depending on added weight, had very sprightly performance, overall superior to the Hurricane.


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