# B-17 attacked by Ki-43



## proton45 (Oct 8, 2009)

OK, here is a film clip I "snipped" out of a full length theatrical movie called "Tsubasa No Gaika". If your curious about the film details, look here; 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KunAkfNWqyc_

P.S. How long before this footage makes its way into the internet as "Real guncam footage" (lol)...


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## twoeagles (Oct 8, 2009)

It really looks like stock Army Air Corps/Boeing footage of the B-17 with the Ki-43 footage inserted onto it. The flight dynamics are all wrong for them to be flying in the same sky at the same time. Interesting, though.


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## Shinpachi (Oct 8, 2009)

Yes, the B-17 in the movie was captured on the Java island soon after the Pearl Harbor to be tested in mainland Japan. It was later used in the movie together with Ki-43s.


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## twoeagles (Oct 8, 2009)

Wow, Shinpachi, that's very interesting. I stand corrected! Still, I have a lot of air-to-air time, and there
are just elements in the film that don't add up for me! Any record on what happened to that old '17 after the filming?


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## JoeB (Oct 8, 2009)

Since the B-17 has the early type tail, it is presumably the one rebuilt from the wreck of B-17D 40-3095 captured at Clark a/f in the Philippines. Photo's also show it done up in natural metal that way. At least one B-17E was rebuilt from the wreck of 41-2471 captured on Java. I don't know of any source which tells what eventually happened to these a/c; neither was found in Japan at the end of the war, as some of the other captured a/c were.

Joe


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## Shinpachi (Oct 8, 2009)

Hi, twoeagles! I didn't know you are a real TOP GUN!
That is great

According to my quick research here, the B-17 in the movie was B-17D which had been captured at Bandon-karijaji(sorry if mistakenly spelled) of Java island. As JoeB(Hello!) points out, she was a plane rebuilt from the wreck. Another B-17E was also captured there. She was in brandnew condition as just being under assembling then.

This B-17E was later transferred to Singapore to be used for training pilots as a target.
She was finally transferred to Tachikawa base in Tokyo for study by way of Vietnam, China, Taiwan and Kyusyu(Japan).

The B-17D was mainly used for demonstration as one of the war trophies. As an example, she was displayed at Haneda airfield in July, 1942 together with other six kinds of captured allies aircrafts. She finally belonged to the army devision of flight experiments located in Tachikawa base too. 

They are thought disassembled to abandon finally there.

My data source is here.


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## proton45 (Oct 8, 2009)

wow, thanks for the information Shinpachi...you always have the missing details.


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## JoeB (Oct 8, 2009)

Shinpachi said:


> According to my quick research here, the B-17 in the movie was B-17D which had been captured at Bandon-karijaji(sorry if mistakenly spelled) of Java island. As JoeB(Hello!) points out, she was a plane rebuilt from the wreck. Another B-17E was also captured there. She was in brandnew condition as just being under assembling then.
> 
> 
> My data source is


I would quibble with the source on that point. B-17D serial no. 40-3095, tactical number 61/11B, belonged to the 14th Bomb Sdn, 19th Bomb Group, was heavily damaged in the initial JNAF bombing raid on Clark a/f in the Philippines, Dec 8 1941, and later returned to flying condition by the Japanese there. An interesting footnote was that this plane was the one assigned to Colin Kelly but he was, obviously, flying another (40-2045) when he earned the Medal of Honor Dec 10.

The B-17E, or at least the one which is certainly identified, was 41-2471 which belonged to the 9th BS/7th BG and was captured at Djogjakarta airfield on Java. Both "Fortress Against the Sun" by G. Salecker and the "Nihongun Hokakuki Hiroku" ('Japanese Army Captured A/c Secret Files') by K. Osuo and S. Nohara basically agree about those two planes. The latter book has photo's of each a/c when captured or in process of repair. By the time the 'D' had its vertical tail replaced, the tactical number 61/11B can be seen, and 1-2471 can be seen on the tail of an E captured in Java, also in badly damaged condition (41-2471 was badly damaged by Tainan Air Group Zeroes February 8, 1942, Saburo Sakai was one of the pilots, then further sabotaged before being abandoned when Java was evacuated).

Some other sources mention a second B-17D from the Philippines, perhaps built in part from 40-3069, but it was apparently eventually used as parts source for 40-3095, which was the only D sent back to Japan and almost surely the plane in the movie. Many sources also mention a second flyable B-17E, and a Japanese photo appears to show 2 B-17E's and the D in formation over Mt Fuji. But I know of no specific info on the second captured 'E'. From the book Nihongun Hokaku it seems the other may have been found at Bandung; it has separate photo's of a B-17E at advanced stage of repair at Bandung but doesn't (seem, to my limited Japanese) to clearly explain that two separate a/c were restored, and definitely not the other plane's serial no. 






Joe


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## Shinpachi (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks, JoeB, for your correction with the much more detailed information.
Thanks, proton45, for a nice thread!


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## sunny91 (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks for sharing,


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 9, 2009)

Great info fellas (and the pics)!


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## twoeagles (Oct 9, 2009)

There you go. This is what makes this such a great and valuable group!
My problem clearly, is I never attacked a B-17D!!! I watched the video several times and 
its historic value is something you cannot argue!


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## Shinpachi (Oct 10, 2009)

Hi, twoeagles!

As you pointed out, it was impossible for a ki-43 to shoot B-17D from this angle(image attached) as they were flying side by side.

Such special effects as the film scratching to show flying trace of bullet was made by Tsuburaya Eiji.
Please forgive him as he later made his historical series of movie "Godzilla" in the post war


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## proton45 (Oct 10, 2009)

twoeagles said:


> It really looks like stock Army Air Corps/Boeing footage of the B-17 with the Ki-43 footage inserted onto it. The flight dynamics are all wrong for them to be flying in the same sky at the same time. Interesting, though.




LOL (I'm laughing at myself), Until Shinpachi included his picture of the tracer fire, I didn't understand what you where talking about (about the flying angles)... I tried to explain that the "tracer fire" was a "special effect" and that the only real indication of "gunfire" was the "gunsmoke" seen at 3:50...

Shinpachi, thanks for the "tracer" explanation...Tsuburaya Eiji was a master of his craft.


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## Shinpachi (Oct 10, 2009)

You are welcome, proton45.
Real gunsmoke in the sky has given me a big inspiration for my future CG work.
I thank you very very much


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## Shinpachi (Oct 10, 2009)

Research on the captured B-17s continues -

Captured 5 allies aircrafts B-17, DC-5, P-37 and other 2(unknown at the moment) flew over the Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo for celebrating the grand festival on 18th October, 1942.
Data source


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## Shinpachi (Oct 10, 2009)

One each captured B-17, P-40 and P-51 remained in undamaged conditon when the allied forces arrived at old Tama airfield(present Yokota Base). They were burried in the north area of the airfield. This is a testimony by a former IJA officer.

Data source


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## Shinpachi (Oct 10, 2009)

B-17(?) at Yokota.


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## Matt308 (Oct 10, 2009)

The Godzilla special effects producer. That explains the fantastic effects for 1942. Rather spectacular for that age really.


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## Shinpachi (Oct 10, 2009)

OK, my research is almost at goal.

One of the captured B-17s was disassembled by Nakajima Aircraft during 1942-43 to develope new bomber "G8N Renzan ". 

Norden bomb sight mounted on the B-17D was removed by Tachikawa Aircraft to develope IJA Type 10 bomb sight.

There was a rumor that the captured B-17 was used for bombing on Iwo-jima or Saipan.

Please let me post if any further information in the future8)
Thanks.


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## Shinpachi (Oct 10, 2009)

Thanks, Matt308.
Thanks again, proton45.
This is early sunday morning here.
I'll fall asleep for sometime.....zzz


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## Matt308 (Oct 10, 2009)

Consider yourself lucky, Shinpachi. I've always wanted to live in the future.


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## proton45 (Oct 10, 2009)

Shinpachi said:


> Thanks, Matt308.
> Thanks again, proton45.
> This is early sunday morning here.
> I'll fall asleep for sometime.....zzz




My watch has two time zones "east coast USA" "Tokyo"...this is because of the amount of travel I was doing. I found myself thinking, "what are they doing in Japan right now?"...ah, eating breakfast. 8)


If anyone's curious Ii posted another small clip from the movie... it shows primary gliders,soarer, and other training procedures. 

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation-videos/film-clip-showing-basic-ija-pilot-training-21114.html


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## JoeB (Oct 10, 2009)

Shinpachi said:


> Captured 5 allies aircrafts B-17, DC-5


The photo in link says it shows B-17 and DC-5 but I think it's B-17D and DB-7B; note long engine nacelles characteristic of a DB-7/A-20, compared to short ones on a DC-5, see photo's below. 32 DB-7B/Boston III's from RAF stocks were diverted to the Dutch Naval Air Force (MLD) in the East Indies as stopgap pending the MLD's own order of DB-7C's. Only 6 DB-7B's were actually delivered to Java, at least one of which was made flyable by the Japanese and only one was brought back to Japan. Most of those not delivered to the Dutch ended up with the RAAF. None of the DB-7C's were ever delivered to the MLD, though many sources mistakenly call the captured a/c a DB-7C. It was DB-7B RAF serial no. AL904. There was also a captured ex-KLM DC-5, and it probably flew over Yasukuni the same day, since both a/c were diplayed together at Haneda field in July 1942, with other a/c including B-17D 40-3095, a Martin 166 (KNIL export B-10), a B-339D (KNIL Buffalo) and a P-40E captured in the Philippines; those were likely among the planes that flew in the October display as well.





captured DC-5





captured DB-7B

Joe


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## Shinpachi (Oct 11, 2009)

Thanks for your care, Matt308.
I also wish you good health and happiness from here.

It is midnight here, proton45!
My bicycle was broken - two spokes missing (I don't know when lost in 3 years), low air-pressured tires, loosened brakes...
I have spent half a day today to repair and adjust

Hi, JoeB!
You have known the right answers from the beginning
The site owner was also wondering if it was DC-5 but seems didn't know there had been DB-7B.
Many thanks


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