# What was the best Italian fighter



## Piaggio108 (Jun 28, 2004)

This is my attempt to include all major italian fighters in a poll, withount them all the poll doesn't mean much. I just copied them out of a book to keep from overlooking any.


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 28, 2004)

I voted for the MC. 205. I believe it was the fastest of all the Italian types to see service and carried a very respectable armament of 2 20mm and 2 12.7mm weapons.


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## Piaggio108 (Jun 28, 2004)

Lightning guy, your vote doesn't seem to have registered.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 28, 2004)

i don't thing C.C. would be very pleased with that poll....................


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jun 28, 2004)

I go with G.55! Two 12.7mm mgs and 3 20mm Hispano cannon.

Also, it was a Mustang killer. (But it was slower and obviously had less range) Better dogfighter and such.


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 28, 2004)

That's probably because I filled out my post but forgot to vote . . .


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## kiwimac (Jun 29, 2004)

Reggiane Re 2005

kiwimac


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## kiwimac (Jun 29, 2004)

> Engine
> One 1,475 hp Daimler-Benz DB 605A-1 V-12 inline liquid-cooled piston.
> 
> Dimensions:
> ...



Source: http://www.aldini.it/re2005/performances.htm

Kiwimac


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 29, 2004)

I've not seen speed figures that high for any fighter. That 70mph decrease at 4,000m followed by a sudden increase of 70mph makes me a little bit skeptical though.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 29, 2004)

any pictures of it.................


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## kiwimac (Jun 29, 2004)

Yup, its the plane in my sig

Kiwimac


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## kiwimac (Jun 29, 2004)

Please also note the following about the Reggiane RE 2005

From http://www.comandosupremo.com/Re2005.html



> The last model in the series was the excellent Re.2005 Sagittario (Archer). The wings were improved and enlarged, with new landing gear and heavy armament of 3 20mm cannon and 2 12.7mm machine guns. The first prototype was ready in December 1941, but lacked the engine for 4 months from Germany (the Daimler Benz inline). The first flight was on 5/9/42 , after the MC.205 and G.55 had both flown. The Re.2005 was fast and maneuverable and used the Fiat 1,475 hp inline license built version of the Daimler-Benz DB 605 engine. Maximum speed was 391 mph, a service ceiling of 40,000 ft and a range of 786 miles. However, only 29 were built.
> 
> The Re.2005's operational career began in May 1943 with the 362nd Squadriglia and used to defend Sicily and Italy against Allied bombers until 8/26/43. After the armistice, the Germans seized 13 and used them to defend the Romanian oil fields.
> 
> ...



Also note the following from http://www.aldini.it/re2005/history.htm







The blurb along with the picture says the following


> This picture reports the test flight made by Com.De Prato, who tested the Re 2005 at a speed of 980 kph, without any problem.



(for those outside the the Metric-using world, 980 km/h = 607 mph, probably in a dive)

Kiwimac


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## kiwimac (Jun 29, 2004)

Shots of the Cockpit








> Left side view of the cockpit.Throttle and engines controls.In italian airplanes the throttle control woked in a different manner from usual;to increase power you had to pull the control.



===============================








> Right side view of the cockpit.Electrical panel.



================================






Flight controls and Instruments.

Kiwimac


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jun 29, 2004)

KIWI!!!
THANK YOU!!!!!!
NOW WE CAN GET SOME BASTARDS TO TRY AND WORK ON THIS CRAZY MACHINE FOR IL-2!!!!
Their biggest problem is ALWAYS cockpit references! You have cured this!


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 29, 2004)

The pictures are great.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 30, 2004)

if a little green...........................


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 9, 2004)

Ah never discovered this poll before - probably because it was during my absence 

But like Kiwi, I have gone for the Re-2005  Nice Pictures too Kiwi 8)



> i don't thing C.C. would be very pleased with that poll....................



Why not? Its a Superb poll!


As a fotnote, I was tempted by the G.50 and MC.200, because the Italians managed to utilise these two planes extremely effectively at the start of the war, despite them being hopelessly outdated. I believe that Italy's top ace, Adriano Visconti, got 18 of his 26 kills in a Macchi MC.200.


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 26, 2005)

Im gonna shift this poll to the polls thread, get it going again, cos its MY kinda thing! 8)


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## mosquitoman (Feb 27, 2005)

I went for the Macchi 205 but what I want to know is who in their right mind could vote the Cr.42 the best italian fighter, it was a BIPLANE


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 27, 2005)

> Why not? Its a Superb poll!



because when i posted that there was only a few planes..........


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 27, 2005)

The post was never edited...I think youre thinking of my Italian planes poll, which sucked...

The Re-2005 was by far the best...


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## delcyros (Mar 3, 2005)

except in numbers deployed.... But technically I agree. It was the best.


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 3, 2005)

The Series 5 Italian fighters were incredibly good, but the Armistice shortly after deployment shortened thir careers somewhat


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## Concorde247 (Mar 26, 2005)

Reggiane Re.2005 definately. with the tried tested Daimler Benz DB605 engine plus decent armament that would be the one i'd like to fly.


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## MP-Willow (Apr 2, 2005)

CC, I would agree that the series 5 were the best! I was ooking for a new Pol to write too, this is nice. I would say that the MC 202 would be my pick. It served well and in the numbers that could be seen. The 205, 2005, and G.55 were all small numbers, but would have and did give the P-51 and P-47 fits. As for the DB 605 the Italians had egine problums, that never really helped and getting out of the war early. I wish the Alies would have used more Italan designs or just collected the engineers


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## Gnomey (Apr 2, 2005)

I agree that the 5 series fighters where technically the best and my pick goes to the Reggiane Re.2005


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## lightning38 (Apr 4, 2005)

I voted for the Reggiane Re 2005. It was very nimble and well-armed. Much better than the Macchi.


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## MP-Willow (Apr 5, 2005)

Ok, but these panese were produced late and in small numbers.What would be our opinion if the P-51 or F4U were produced in the same numbers? If the MC. 205 or the 2005 were produced in the same quantity and quality as the two US aircraft. 

But that is not a true part of this forum? So, I would still go for the 205. Fast and fun.


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## pbfoot (Apr 13, 2006)

cheddar cheese said:


> The post was never edited...I think youre thinking of my Italian planes poll, which sucked...
> 
> The Re-2005 was by far the best...


but unfortunately the Italians had no ability or resources to mass produce


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 14, 2006)

Nope, but it doesnt stop a plane from being capable...

I change my vote to SAI 403 now anyway.


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## Glider (Apr 14, 2006)

Fiat G55


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## RE2005 (Oct 9, 2006)

I voted for Re2005, but I think MC205 was an excellent
fighter as well.
Nick


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## Chocks away! (Dec 26, 2006)

The Germans seemed to think that the Fiat G55 was the best though. They even considerred replacing the Bf-109 with them but they turned out to be too expensive...


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## eagledad (Dec 26, 2006)

Hello!


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## eagledad (Dec 26, 2006)

I vote for the MC 205. The RE-2005 wasn't available in large numbers (for an Italian fighter). The 205 was at least mentioned in air to air combat, I don;t know about the 2005. BTW, doesn;t anyone question the RE-2005's speed at 2000m, 421?!?

Eagledad


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## contaxrts (Jun 6, 2007)

I'voted g-55 couse for germans it was better
It was only slowest than 205 but better in everything else
The speed of the reggiane was 678 km/h only for the use of an original db605 and not the fiat tifone that was rated 100 hp less.
Using the fiat engine it was only 25 km/h faster than g-55.
The g-55 was sturdier than reggiane (who had problems in hi g manouvres) and carrie 100 rounds for each 20 mm gun more than re.2005.
The g-55 impressed german engineers (including kurt tank, fw 190 designer and also a test pilot) for the total absence of vibration in vertical dive.
Ace Adolf Galland personally phone to Herman Goring to tell him that g-55 was the better assis fighter; better than 109g and fw 190.
In other words, maybe the g-55 maibe was not the better plane but sure it was the better weapon.
ciao

Piero
ps: sorry for my english


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 6, 2007)

He believed it was better than the Bf 109 but I dont believe he ever said itw as better than the Fw 190. Excuse me if I am wrong.


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## contaxrts (Jun 6, 2007)

in febbruary 1943 it was better than 109g and 190a


from: Fiat G.55 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In December 1942 a technical commission of the Regia Aeronautica was invited by Luftwaffe to test some German aircraft in Rechlin. The visit was part of a joint plan for the standardization of the Axis aircraft production. In the same time some Luftwaffe officers visited Guidonia where they were particularly interested in the performances promised by the Serie 5 plane. On December 9 these impressions were discussed in a Luftwaffe staff meeting and raised the interest of Goering himself. In February 1943 a German test commission was sent in Italy to evaluate the new Italian fighters. The commission was led by Oberst Petersen and was formed by Luftwaffe officers and pilots and by technical personnel, among them the Flugbaumeister Malz. The Germans carried with them also several aircraft included a Fw 190A and a Bf 109G for direct comparison tests in simulated dogfights.

The tests began February 20. The German commission was very impressed by the Italian aircraft, the G.55 in particular. In general, all the Serie 5 fighters were very good at low altitudes, but the G.55 was competitive with its German opponents also in term of speed and climb rate at high altitudes still maintaining superior handling characteristics. The definitive evaluation by the German commission was "excellent" for the G.55, "good" for the Re.2005 and "average" for the C.205. Oberst Petersen defined the G.55 "the best fighter in the Axis" and immediately telegraphed his impressions to Goering. After listening the recommendations of Petersen, Milch and Galland, a meeting held by Goering on February 22 voted to produce the G.55 in Germany


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 6, 2007)

I stand corrected.


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## pbfoot (Jun 6, 2007)

nice aircraft but they also found out it was man hour intensive to manufacture or not enough bang for the buck


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 6, 2007)

Yeap and that regards the 109 and 190 were superior.


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## contaxrts (Jun 7, 2007)

so you think 109g is better than spitfire mk VIII couse spit needs more man hours?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 7, 2007)

Did I say that at all in my post? 

Nope....

I do however think the Spit and the 109G were very close with each one having advantages and disadvantages over the other. Most people will agree with me on that.


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## Soren (Jun 7, 2007)

The Re-2005 hands down. Too bad it didn't see the ervice it deserved.


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## Marcel (Jun 7, 2007)

Don't know that much about Italian planes, but didn't have all the Reggiane planes have problems with the tail structure or was this solved in later models (like the 2005)? Just curious.


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## Soren (Jun 7, 2007)

It was solved in the Re.2005 which could be dived at around 900 km/h without any problems.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Jun 7, 2007)

The Spitfire might have been hard to build for the British, but I think the building a Hurricane was longer and harder, since it was made of metal and wood.


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## mosquitoman (Jun 7, 2007)

Spit took longer because of the wings if I remember correctly


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## Parmigiano (Jun 8, 2007)

Yes, Spit was a handful to build, but with the proper investments Vickers could achieve a good production rate.

I suspect than rather than the 'complications' of construction the problem of the G55 was that it was not conceived to be built in subassemblies by separate factories like the 190 and the 109. 
If the Germans still had the possibility to setup a big production plant, building the G55 in big numbers would have been possible at an acceptable cost.
Fact is that in 1943-44 such factories were out of the picture in the Reich, too vulnerable to bombing.


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## Soren (Jun 8, 2007)

Although certainly great fighters, building the G-55 or Re.2005 instead of the Bf-109 wouldn't have made any difference. The Bf-109 did alot better than most fighters could under the same circumstances - the Germans and Finnish clearly demonstrated this.

Fact is that the Bf-109 was the best fighter of WWII when handled by an experienced pilot. - The number of aces this a/c produced is simply astounding.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 17, 2007)

Maybe, but if more of the Allied Pilots had stayed in the service as long as the Germans had to, they wouldn't have ended up with higher scores than they did. But I admit, the Russians scores agains't the Germans never got as high, even though they also served longer than the British and Americans.


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## ToughOmbre (Sep 17, 2007)

Primo Carnera


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## The Basket (Sep 17, 2007)

Soren said:


> Fact is that the Bf-109 was the best fighter of WWII when handled by an experienced pilot. - The number of aces this a/c produced is simply astounding.



Dont buy that. The number of aces is not important because German pilots flew more missions. A British or American pilot would also have had high kill scores too over the Eastern front in same conditions.

The Bf 109 was the most important but not the best German fighter. IMHO the Fw 190 was better and the He 100 potentially would have been far superior. 

Best Italian fighter for me was the Macchi mc 202. The best available in numbers when needed.

The Spitfire came about due to the Schnieder trophy races in which the Italians were the main rivals. It follows that the Italians could have had thier own Spit in the same timeframe. 

Maybe I is thinking for another thread...the best Italian motorcycle marque! MV Agusta! The Italians can build the best when they put the effort in. Ducati in MotoGP is a good example.


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## Glider (Sep 18, 2007)

Soren said:


> Although certainly great fighters, building the G-55 or Re.2005 instead of the Bf-109 wouldn't have made any difference. The Bf-109 did alot better than most fighters could under the same circumstances - the Germans and Finnish clearly demonstrated this.
> 
> Fact is that the Bf-109 was the best fighter of WWII when handled by an experienced pilot. - The number of aces this a/c produced is simply astounding.



I believe that the Italian planes would have made a big difference had they been available over the 109. 
There were already well armed and able to take on the heavy bombers. As we all know the 109 had to be upgraded at a cost to its performance leaving it vulnerable to the escorting fighters.
The Italian aircraft ready equipped with the 3 x 20 would have maintained their performance and been a significant threat to the escorts.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 18, 2007)

The Basket said:


> Dont buy that. The number of aces is not important because German pilots flew more missions. A British or American pilot would also have had high kill scores too over the Eastern front in same conditions.



Not argueing with you here because I agree somewhat with you but there were plenty of Luftwaffe Aces on the Western Front who scored over 100 kills and several that scored over 200 and they flew only on the Western Front or in the Med or N. Africa.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 18, 2007)

Luftwaffe pilots might have been trained more to survive in a loner situation, perhaps?


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## Glider (Sep 18, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Not argueing with you here because I agree somewhat with you but there were plenty of Luftwaffe Aces on the Western Front who scored over 100 kills and several that scored over 200 and they flew only on the Western Front or in the Med or N. Africa.



I admit that I always believed that only a few scored 100+ against western airforces and none of the 200+ scores were only against the west.

Is there anywhere I can go for a breakdown so I can add it to my favourites
Its easy to find a list of aces but I haven't been able to find anything that breaks it down into area of conflict.
Thanking you in advance


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## Focus_in (Nov 14, 2007)

2005 for me too.

But as a personal favorite, the Saetta.
Just has a charm to it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 14, 2007)

Glider said:


> I admit that I always believed that only a few scored 100+ against western airforces and none of the 200+ scores were only against the west.
> 
> Is there anywhere I can go for a breakdown so I can add it to my favourites
> Its easy to find a list of aces but I haven't been able to find anything that breaks it down into area of conflict.
> Thanking you in advance



This is an excellent website here. Our very own Erich has even helped on it I believe.
Kacha`s Luftwaffe Page

I did however make a slight mistake now that I look back on the website. *There were no pilots that scored 200 or more only on the western front.*

I apologize for this mistake.

Heinz "Pritzel" Bär who scored a total of 221 kills in WW2 had 125 on the Western Front and 96 on the Eastern Front. He is the one that I was claiming 200+ kills on the Western Front.

There were a total of 8 pilots who shot down 100+ aircraft on the Western Front and they are (total kills is in parenthases)

1. Hans-Joachim "Jochen" Marseille - 158 (158)
2. Heinz "Pritzel" Bär - 125 (221)
3. Kurt Bühligen - 112 (112)
4. Adolf "Dolfo" Galland - 104 (104)
5. Joachim Müncheberg - 102 (135)
6. Werner Schroer - 102 (114)
7. Egon Mayer - 102 (102)
8. Josef "Pips" Priller - 101 (101)

In addition to that there were:

7 aces that scored between 70 and 99 kills on the Western Front.

22 aces that scored between 50 and 69 kills on the Western Front.

Either way still very impressive.


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## parsifal (May 18, 2008)

Ive read in various places that the italians were never prepred to compromise the performance of their fighters, in the name of firepower, to the same extent as the LW was. Me 109g I have read were severely degraded in performance and handling because of the very heavy armament carried. Whilst italian Fighters also increased their firepower, it was never to the same extremes as the LW. Is this true, or is yet another fabrication???

The RA did operate significant numbers of Me 109s from the beginning of 1943 onwards. They could no more redress the allied air superiority that had been won by the end of 1942 any more than the home grown aircraft


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## parsifal (May 18, 2008)

It is easy to fall for the old mistake of not realizing that there were many more targets in the air bearing allied insignia, than there were german. moreover, by 1943, nearly all german aircraft in the west were fighters, whereas, in 1943 at least, nearly all Allied aircraft over enemy territory were bombers. So, doesnt the fact that the Germans were shooting at unescorted bombers most of the time have something to do with these impressive kill rates?


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