# Mystery object



## Kingscoy (Aug 4, 2018)

Hi guys,
Not sure where to post this one...it could be related to a RAF crash. But I want you to look at this object as objetively as possible.

As some of you know I've been researching the story and crash of Spitfire PR IB N3069 for over 28 years now. I found this birdie yesterday in the immediate area of the crash site of Spitfire PR IB N3069.
It is 6.5cm wide and 8 grams heavy. Material is non magnetic. No stamps or hallmarks.
Pilot was known to have several privately purchased items...for example he had an ID bracelet.
I'm totally baffled by this find and not sure what to make or think of it. Clearly extremely similar to an RAF albatros or the pathfinder badge...but...there were no other RAF crashes in the area within 10 miles radius during the war.
Anything you guys might think is welcome.
Cheers Sander


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## buffnut453 (Aug 4, 2018)

It's similar in size to the shoulder badge worn by enlisted airmen. However, most pics I've seen of those appear to be fabric and not metal. 

I'm wondering if it belonged to a member of the recovery crew sent out to the crash site? Perhaps belonging to a WO rather than a lower-ranked airman? 

Great find, though!!!


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## Kingscoy (Aug 4, 2018)

Thx for the reply and much appreciated. But this a/c came down in Holland. 22nd of March 1940 and was recovered by Dutch military units. I'm thinking perhaps privately purchased but also have to consider it just being modern and lost by someone...how bizar too that may be.

It has definetly some quality to it. If it would be modern one would expect some cheap aloy and poor quality...


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## Airframes (Aug 4, 2018)

The quality, and appearance, suggest it's not a modern (post 1960's) item, and it might be a metal forage cap badge (possibly, although not certain, silver).
The two 'studs' on the rear are where the pin, holding the badge to the cap, would have been mounted, which would have been 'softer' steel or brass.
If it is a cap badge, then it's 'other ranks' or NCO, as Officer's badges were gilt (gold coloured), and both types would have a separate, King's crown, mounted above the Eagle (or Albatross, commonly called a 'shite hawk' in RAF slang !).


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## Kingscoy (Aug 4, 2018)

Thx for your thoughts Terry....and certainly interesting that you think it is not modern.


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## MiTasol (Aug 5, 2018)

Airframes said:


> The quality, and appearance, suggest it's not a modern (post 1960's) item, and it might be a metal forage cap badge (possibly, although not certain, silver).
> The two 'studs' on the rear are where the pin, holding the badge to the cap, would have been mounted, which would have been 'softer' steel or brass.
> If it is a cap badge, then it's 'other ranks' or NCO, as Officer's badges were gilt (gold coloured), and both types would have a separate, King's crown, mounted above the Eagle (or Albatross, commonly called a 'shite hawk' in RAF slang !).



Hi Airframes
You have obviously spent some time studying such items so could you put an approximate first made date range on this American pilots wings. The vendor said 1940 but to me the studs look more modern - and the condition looks pretty good for something supposedly buried in acidic soil for over 60 years do I said no thanks.


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## Bernhart (Aug 5, 2018)

googled eagle cap badges and there is a RAF pathfinders badge that is very similar


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## Milosh (Aug 5, 2018)

WW2 British RAF Officer's Cap Badge


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## Milosh (Aug 5, 2018)

RCAF had a similar,


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## Kingscoy (Aug 5, 2018)

Thanks guys for the input. Being so similar to all the birds above and the fact that "my" Spit is the only allied a/c which crashed in that vicinity...RAF/RCAF and US...my real question I guess is, if it is a modern piece or not. Beacuse if it isn't modern it would imply that it is related to the pilot of this Spitfire.
Link to the story;

Spitfire PR IB N3069 near Herwen.


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## ODonovan (Aug 9, 2018)

MiTasol said:


> Hi Airframes
> You have obviously spent some time studying such items so could you put an approximate first made date range on this American pilots wings. The vendor said 1940 but to me the studs look more modern - and the condition looks pretty good for something supposedly buried in acidic soil for over 60 years do I said no thanks.
> 
> View attachment 504422
> View attachment 504423



I generally use these pages as references. Aviation Wings and Badges of the World Wars and 1919-1941 vintage pilot wings - WING BADGES

As far as I can tell, early wings all the way through the WWII era tend to be more upswept and/or pointy on the outward ends of the wings. Also, clutch back was not government issue, until MUCH later (1950s?). Almost all wings had straight pins across the back, especially pre-war. It's POSSIBLE someone bought them from a private jeweler or uniform supplier, however. Some of them, especially more finely made ones from major jewelry manufacturers, could have had clutch backs, although probably not as early as 1940. Officers had to purchase their own dress uniforms, so many companies produced and sold them.

This looks to be a cheap casting. The pin isn't stamped with a maker's mark or as "Sterling" silver. There's that lump on the inside right of the shield back. And the shapes of the feathers show through, unevenly, on the backs of the wings. That's likely due to them being made thinner than normal, to save metal. I would say very poor cheap reproduction. HOWEVER, I am far from an expert. As officers DID have to spend their own money, these could have been purchased in any number of places by some guy just needing wings and not wanting to spend much money. Are they from 1940, however, almost certainly not.

EDIT: I believe I have found the original pattern from which these were made. They look to be a re-casting (make a mold of an original, then cast imitations from that mold) of these wings.










As you can see, the originals have the maker's mark LGB and are marked as sterling silver. They are also a pin-back rather than clutch.

-Irish


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## MiTasol (Aug 9, 2018)

ODonovan said:


> I generally use these pages as references. Aviation Wings and Badges of the World Wars and 1919-1941 vintage pilot wings - WING BADGES -Irish



Many thanks for both the link and confirming my guess that they were as honest as a politician/lawyer/insurance salesperson


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## special ed (Aug 10, 2018)

May I suggest the wings found at the crash site be taken to a reputable jeweler who can give an approximate age and metal content. Most likely at no charge.


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## Kingscoy (Aug 10, 2018)

Will do so this weekend


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## D3801 (Apr 5, 2020)

Could the pilot have been a Norwegian. They wore RAF uniform with adapted wartime Norwegian badges ? Northweald UK, was a Norwegian Spitfire base


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## Kingscoy (Apr 7, 2020)

D3801 said:


> Could the pilot have been a Norwegian. They wore RAF uniform with adapted wartime Norwegian badges ? Northweald UK, was a Norwegian Spitfire base


No, sorry...100% sure not Norwegian. But thx for the reply...much appreciated.


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## ThomasP (Apr 7, 2020)

Hey Kingscoy,

I may be misremembering, but I am pretty sure that I have seen that pattern of eagle, used in WWI (RFC?). It was along time ago that I saw a similar pattern (30+ years?) but it had been handed down from a grandfather who flew in WWI to a friend of mine who was a pilot in the modern RAF. Apologies if this starts a wild goose chase (wild goose search?).

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## D3801 (Apr 7, 2020)

RNAS wore that pattern in gold, on the khaki uniform overseas, above the left breast pocket. However, there are almost no sharp focus images, showing the precise design. Most of the RNAS wings are wrongly labelled as 'Sweetheart brooches' There were several types worn, including the bijoux fix French costume ones.

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## Kingscoy (Apr 8, 2020)

Thank you both for your thoughts...much appreciated. The bottom line question is/ was...is it WW2 or modern? The pilot of this Spitfire is the only RAF pilot lost in this area during the war. So finding this item at the crash site was to say the least, very exciting. But the sceptic in me, and because it "looks" RAF but isn't, says not to jump to conclusions. However, I have found out that back was filled with pewter probably to attach the studs. If it was just a modern thing why bother...
So I'm, say 85% convinced, that it belonged to my Spitfire pilot...and was probably attached to something like a sigaret case which is know he owned. Gift on his wedding day from his fellow pilots.

22 March this year should have seen a permanent memorial being unveiled honouring him. But the COVID-19 outbreak did cancel that. Hopefully I will be able to do the official and public unveiling now on 4 October.

The complete story and memorial project on a special Facebook page: Spitfire PR IB N3069 - Remembering F/O Mervyn Wheatley

Cheers Sander

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## yeoldbarn (Jul 28, 2020)

Kingscoy said:


> Thank you both for your thoughts...much appreciated. The bottom line question is/ was...is it WW2 or modern? The pilot of this Spitfire is the only RAF pilot lost in this area during the war. So finding this item at the crash site was to say the least, very exciting. But the sceptic in me, and because it "looks" RAF but isn't, says not to jump to conclusions. However, I have found out that back was filled with pewter probably to attach the studs. If it was just a modern thing why bother...
> So I'm, say 85% convinced, that it belonged to my Spitfire pilot...and was probably attached to something like a sigaret case which is know he owned. Gift on his wedding day from his fellow pilots.
> 
> 22 March this year should have seen a permanent memorial being unveiled honouring him. But the COVID-19 outbreak did cancel that. Hopefully I will be able to do the official and public unveiling now on 4 October.
> ...



Looks like an RAF side cap albatross badge.

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## Kingscoy (Jul 31, 2020)

yeoldbarn said:


> Looks like an RAF side cap albatross badge.


It sure does...but the dimensions of it don't match up with a side cap example. Thank you for your thoughts though...always appreciated!


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