# Dog fights on the History channel



## Erich (Jun 26, 2007)

well I am not for supporting this bogus outfit but I received an email from a good German friend and ex-pilot of the LW. His story covering the Rammkommando Elbe (false name actually) will be aired on Dogfights I believe on the History Channel July 13, 07 in the USA. Sorry not sure when the episode will be covered elsewhere in Europe or ....... ? In any case he has been assured that the History Channel writers are not going to add nor subtract from his story and service record during the war for this part. there may even be some coverage on the Sturmgruppen, happy thought indeed .... 

Erich


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## lesofprimus (Jun 26, 2007)

Ill be lookin foward to that episode...


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## Erich (Jun 26, 2007)

bud his name is Fritz Marktscheffel, formerly of NJG 101 and then into day fighter school and then..........well listen to his story, the man is a great guy in all respects


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## lesofprimus (Jun 26, 2007)

Excellent...


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 26, 2007)

Very cool - I do like that show even though sometimes the "experts" they bring on board are very lame. They just had an episode about Vietnam that featured Dan Cherry and Fred Omstead - two Mig killers. My father in law recently met both these guys and flew with them in L-39s.


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## timshatz (Jun 26, 2007)

Cool. Great graphics on that show. Good show. No idea about the accuracy of the stories, seemed ok, sometimes a little sensational. But that probably draws eyes to the show. 

Glad it made it to the second season.


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## Hunter368 (Jun 26, 2007)

I liked the shows they were cool.


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## timshatz (Jul 9, 2007)

Season Two for Dogfights starts this Friday. Here is the list of the shows as they were post on the History Channel Website:

Season TWO
JET ACES
Capt. James Jabara makes history in the skies over MiG Alley by downing two MiG-15s to become the first American jet ace. The episode also includes spectacular fights with Hoot Gibson and Ralph Parr.

THUNDERBOLT!
Episode features the legendary P-47 Thunderbolt and the courageous pilots who flew them - including Robert S. Johnson's fight where a German Fw190 unloads all of his ammo into the Thunderbolt but can't knock it down. The show also details fights with Thunderbolt Aces Donald Bryan and George Sutcliffe.

DELTA WIND WARRIORS
Israeli pilots, flying fighters designed with the innovative delta wing, duel with the best Arab pilots. Ran Ronen, in his delta wing Mirage, battles a Jordanian Hawker-Hunter fighter, chasing him down a canyon for eight minutes. He eventually shoots the enemy plane and the pilot ejects sideways into the canyon wall! Also, Israel's top ace, Giora Epstein, flies his Mirage against a Sukhoi-7 and bags his first kill. Later, Epstein goes head-to-head against the enemy's own delta wing fighter - the feared MiG-21.

GUN KILLS OF VIETNAM
In a war where most of the kills were with long-range missiles, the most exciting dogfights were decided with guns. A-1 Skyraiders down a MiG-17 with 20mm cannon. Phil Handley, flying mach1.2, downs a MiG-21 with his guns to record the first supersonic gun kill in history.

LAFAYETTE ESCADRILLE/AMERICA'S FIRST ACE
Raoul Lufberry, along with 38 other Americans, pioneer dogfighting tactics flying as mercenaries with the French Air Service. In the legendary Obendorff raid Lufberry scores his fifth kill to become America's first ace.

BLOOD OVER BAGHDAD
The planes have changed but the jeopardy remains the same. American fighter pilots pit F-15s against Iraqi MiG-25s and advanced MiG-29s. Included are fights with USAF pilots Steven Tate, Cesar Rodriguez, Craig Underhill, and Richard Tollini.

THE BLUE-NOSED BASTARDS
The 352nd fighter group flew P-51 Mustangs with a distinctive blue-nose paint scheme that gave them their name. They became one of the most decorated fighter squadrons in the European theater. Including Don Bryan's ace-in-a-day mission. Also, Alden Rigby and Sandy Moats down four German planes apiece in a legendary dogfight.

THE BLUE-NOSED BASTARDS
The 352nd fighter group flew P-51 Mustangs with a distinctive blue-nose paint scheme that gave them their name. They became one of the most decorated fighter squadrons in the European theater. Including Don Bryan's ace-in-a-day mission. Also, Alden Rigby and Sandy Moats down four German planes apiece in a legendary dogfight.

THE BLOODIEST DAY
May 10, 1972. The bloodiest day of air combat during the Vietnam war featured numerous twisting and turning dogfigts. Bob Lodge and Roger Locher pioneer electronic warfare and engage in one of the most exciting air battles of the war.

BATTLE OF THE FALKLANDS
The 1982 Argentine invasion of the Falkland Islands triggered war with the United Kingdom. Remarkable vertical take-off and landing Sea Harriers take on Mirages and A4s in some of the best dogfights of the modern age. The British establish air superiority but the Argentines sink several ships with wave-top level attacks in A4s.

DUEL OF THE ACES
Shorty Rankin is an American ace pilot in one of the most distinguished fighter groups in the history of air combatthe 56th FG. Gunther Rall is a top German ace, now transferring from the Eastern front to face the American threat in the west. They're on a collision course...and their fates will be decided in a historic dogfight on May 23, 1944.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 9, 2007)

Cool!


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## Erich (Jul 9, 2007)

interesting, don Bryan of the 352nd is more known for his P-51 exploits, a great guy, I put up his Ar 234 encounters somewhere on these forum(s). Ace Alden Rigby sure has some good stores to tell; another fine man.

that last one is somewhat of a crack up to me. Rall against 5 P-47 Jugheads yeah that is really a fair fight, and yet Rall only lost a thumb showing just what kind of a hot shot pilot he really was.

the episode that I speak of is the 2nd part of Kamikaze so I am told


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## Njaco (Jul 10, 2007)

Erich, I may be alittle fuzzy, but you said Rammkommando Elbe was a false name? Is the proper term Werewolf?


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## lesofprimus (Jul 10, 2007)

Kamikaze isnt even a listed Episode Erich...


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## pbfoot (Jul 10, 2007)

A lot of the dogfight slips are on youtube for you guys without access

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EadMxLadg18_


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## Lucky13 (Jul 11, 2007)

I enjoyed the show and I hope that it will evolve and go beyond the second season. Hopefully we'll see some about nightfighers, and special operations like Operation Chastise, Operation Jericho and the attacks on the Gestapo headquarters in Aarhus, Kopenhagen, Oslo and the Phillips factory....


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## Erich (Jul 11, 2007)

Les I saw a Kamikaze thing on the 13th of the month in the evening, the Elbe interviews along with J Crandalls is during the second of the two hour segment.


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## Hornet_Driver (Jul 13, 2007)

I watched the "Last of the Gunslingers" F-8 documentary and the air war over Hanoi during 1967. Man! Catch it, if you can.


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## mkloby (Jul 13, 2007)

Hornet_Driver said:


> I watched the "Last of the Gunslingers" F-8 documentary and the air war over Hanoi during 1967. Man! Catch it, if you can.



HD - how many squadrons of FA-18C's does the USN have? I thought they were replacing them all with the E/F.

How long ago did you go through flight school? I am just starting helos now, and got slated for the MV-22.


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## comiso90 (Jul 13, 2007)

I'm watching it now. They've added more "in the aircraft" human animations. I like it. Some great programming physics went into how the aircraft behave under stress.
I'm disappointed at the ramming and kamakazi theme. It's interesting but lacks the drama of a desperate knife fight by two capable combatants.
I look forward to subsequent episodes.

.


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## PearlJamNoCode (Jul 14, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> I'm watching it now. They've added more "in the aircraft" human animations. I like it. Some great programming physics went into how the aircraft behave under stress.
> I'm disappointed at the ramming and kamakazi theme. It's interesting but lacks the drama of a desperate knife fight by two capable combatants.
> I look forward to subsequent episodes.
> 
> .



Here's a synopsis of the episodes for the rest of the season... looks pretty awesome.

Dogfights (TV series) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Erich (Jul 14, 2007)

not sure why I stayed up to watch the Elbe thing, it was cut off way too short as the other LW units were not covered, Fritz was up 7 times and they cut him off more than once without allowing him to finish his statements in German. Crandall was up 2 times and got 15 seconds in. Graphics were interesting...

I gave the show a 3 out of 10 with 10 being best

hopeful the future sessions will be better - # 14 should be good one, Alden Rigby is a great guy and this actually made him an ace with the attack by JG 11 over the 352nd fg airfield at Asch, the 352nd fg slaughtered the German LW unit. geez they cannot even get Oskar's name spelt correctly was on a mission with a small part of his Sturmgruppe and one of his Kameraden was shot down by a spitfire, and in turn Oskar got in behind and vaporized the RAF fighter with his Minen rounds.

I have the stories already.......will be interesting to see if they get it right.

thanks for the link PJNC


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## lesofprimus (Jul 14, 2007)

Heres a link to the episode that had my Uncle Swedes excellent story of 3 vs 1 while flying in his SBD....

Part 1 : 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEnDjwXnj3Y_

Part 2: 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1NTUzj7cGw_


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## Njaco (Jul 15, 2007)

Les, I watched that and was amazed! He was your uncle!! My hats off to him. Kinda like taking a butterknife to a gunfight and still makin out on top. They had alittle about his gunner but did your uncle ever say he flew with him again? I'd probably stick to him like glue on any further missions.


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## lesofprimus (Jul 15, 2007)

He wasnt my actual Uncle, but an "Uncle" who was great family pals with my Grandfather.... I have since given my Liberty Head Silver Dollar collection that Uncle Swede gave me over the years of my childhood to my son...

As for his gunner, yes he flew with him on numerous occasions...

As a side note, Swedes entire body was one huge bruise after this combat.... Throwing those G's around gets tough on the body..


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## renrich (Jul 15, 2007)

Great stuff about Swede V. One thing that makes me crazy about TV is the mistakes. For instance, the Marine Top Gun instructor states that the Zero cannons outrange the SBDs guns. If I am not mistaken the SBD had 2 cowl mounted 50 cals. The low velocity Oerlikon cannons in the Zero were very short ranged and the twin 50s could reach out with their much flatter trajectories and touch the Zero before those cannon were effective. That was the reason why the Thach Weave was effective. The Zero did not like to go head to head with a Wildcat because the Wildcat could hit him before the Zero could hit back and of course the Zero was much more fragile. Anyway, nit picking but Swede was a hell of a pilot. Wonder what his gunner was thinking during the dogfight?


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## lesofprimus (Jul 15, 2007)

The gunner was trying to stay conscious throughout the battle...


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## Njaco (Jul 16, 2007)

> Wonder what his gunner was thinking during the dogfight?


"wow, this is better than Six Flags!" Really, he must've been scared as hell! I give Swede a big  for that action. To evade a far superior machine than yours is one thing, to shoot several down, AMAZING!


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## Stupid (Jul 16, 2007)

Wow I saw the episode yesterday and personally I thought it was awesome. Saw the SBD one on TV also and it was amazing as well. They've come a long way in effects since their first 2 hour episode.


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## AAA_leadsled (Jul 16, 2007)

At first I was a little disappointed at the title of the first episode when I looked into it, since kamikaze didn't seem like a "dogfight"!.

After watching it tho, I think they took the show to the next level in terms of explaining and they seemed to have alot of veterans who were there.

I am thankful that this show exists, I can't get enough of warbirds!

I imagine alot of their choices for shows has to do with finding veterans to help explain it all, after all the human element is what it is about!

I would like to see more european, eastern front action, or even the med.

I think its a good show and helps to get more people interested in this part of history which after all can't be a bad thing!


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## syscom3 (Jul 16, 2007)

I wonder why the German "sondekommando" -109 was only fitted with a single MG?


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## davparlr (Jul 16, 2007)

The article on the U.S.S. Laffey was especially meaningful to me. My childhood neighbor was in the 5 inch gun turret that was hit by the kamakazi. He was one of the survivors. I wish I was old enough to talk to him about it. It was an incredible story about an incredible ship.


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## Njaco (Jul 16, 2007)

According to "Last Flight of the Luftwaffe" by Adrian Weir, the Bf 109s were stripped to gain speed. Pg. 67 "_The total weight saving which could be gained by fully stripping a Bf 109 could have been as much as 440lb (200kg), endowing the converted fighters with a maximum 24 mph (39kph) additional airspeed at their operational altitude_."


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## AAA_leadsled (Jul 18, 2007)

Holy Crap! I just realized that the Laffey is sitting right here in Charleston, SC harbour, right next to the Yorktown!

I hadn't visited it in about 15 years, I didn't realize until davparlr's post that it was the same Laffy! (the ole brain don't work like it used to!)

Wow, guess I need to take a ride down there and visit the ole girl!


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## Njaco (Jul 19, 2007)

Get some pics and post'em. Love to see some.


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## AAA_leadsled (Jul 19, 2007)

It maybe a few weeks till I have time to get down there, but I'll have to do that!


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## ccheese (Jul 21, 2007)

The episode about the Rammkommando Elbe was on last night, (20th) on the
History Channel. It's the 2nd time it's been on that I know of.

Charles


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## comiso90 (Jul 24, 2007)

lesofprimus said:


> The gunner was trying to stay conscious throughout the battle...



I just took these with my phone aboard the USS Midway in beautiful San Diego....


Here's to u Swede!


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## Erich (Jul 24, 2007)

sys it depened on whether the kommando was made up of the lightened 109's or not. Jg 300 brought in their own equipment as well as two other units. sometimes there were 2 13mm left on not just one over the cowling.

interesting thoughts on the mission from friend F. Marktscheffel. I want to get his opinion further later on the episode once he has had chance to view it from Germany. he will probably be disappointed like he was when German TV tried to portray him and his fellow pilots


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## timshatz (Jul 25, 2007)

I would love to fly the SBD. It looks like an easy and good flyer. No bad habits kind of plane. Has the right details to it to. The early war aircraft (Zero, SBD, Spitfire, ect) had reputations as being easy flyers whereas the late war birds were brutes. 

The SBD looks like a fun ride.


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## ccheese (Jul 25, 2007)

Tim:
Never flew in the SBD, but did fly in the TBF in the radioman's hole under the
rear gunner. I've heard pilots say you had to fly the TBF all the time or
it tended to corkscrew to the left. Ditto with the TBM, but that didn't have
the radioman's hole.

Charles


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## timshatz (Jul 26, 2007)

ccheese said:


> Tim:
> Never flew in the SBD, but did fly in the TBF in the radioman's hole under the
> rear gunner. I've heard pilots say you had to fly the TBF all the time or
> it tended to corkscrew to the left. Ditto with the TBM, but that didn't have
> ...



Pulls to the left? You would figure it would torque right. Did they have rudder trim on those things? I imagine if you trimmed it out for level flight, it would be ok. I've flow aircraft without trim on all the surfaces and it can be a pain in the ass. Especially when you change the power settings. 

How was the flight? I've seen pics of that position and it looks somewhat roomy (for a single engined bomber). Is the view constricted?


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## ccheese (Jul 26, 2007)

Yea.... Seems I remember several pilots say "to the left". The TBF's I flew
in were in a Composite Squadron (VC-62). All the guns, armor and the old
radios were removed. We had a "GRC-something" for a radio, which did both
voice and CW. The view was fine...... aft only ! You could stand and talk
to the pilot, but couldn't see out the windshield. You could look out the
rear gunner's bubble if you stood up. The rear gunner position had been
removed. We did mock attacks on the ships for the NorVa Fleet Training
Center. We also did a lot a VIP transport with our PB-1W's (B-17) and our
PBJ-1's (B-25). I guess it had rudder trim, most aircraft do (or did).

Charles


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## Erich (Jul 27, 2007)

anyone been able to confirm the date of # 14 yet ?


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Aug 28, 2007)

I'm looking forward for the Alden Rigby one. Unfortunetly it won't be until December I bet!

Read his story last year, and I was wondering if he would be among the Blue Nose pilots on Dogfights.


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## drgondog (Aug 28, 2007)

timshatz said:


> Pulls to the left? You would figure it would torque right. Did they have rudder trim on those things? I imagine if you trimmed it out for level flight, it would be ok. I've flow aircraft without trim on all the surfaces and it can be a pain in the ass. Especially when you change the power settings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 28, 2007)

drgondog said:


> PS - there are many cases where the illustrators get the control inpust wrong in DogFights - check out the occsional right roll with left aileron 'up' and right aileron 'down'


Saw that - kind of funny.....


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## renrich (Aug 28, 2007)

I read the takeoff settings for the Corsair were 6 degrees right rudder and 6 degrees right aileron down.


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## Erich (Aug 28, 2007)

Soundbreaker Welch I interviewed Mr. Rigby last year and what a super guy giving up his time and answering all my questions. the December showing would be right on par as he became an ace on 1 January 45 over their airfield at Asch, Belgium against JG 11. what a disaster it was for the LW, the 352nd Blue nosers made mince of them and it was only 1 squadron up that took on the Geschwader. Also the US 9th AF 366th fg with the Jug pasted others.
Personally it was one of the worst scenarios the LW ever got itself in and many aces/leaders fell that date.......


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Aug 29, 2007)

Was it just bad timing or overeaching?


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## Erich (Aug 29, 2007)

both, a terrible hair-brained idea from higher up to give a devastating blow to the Allied air forces. weather was not good in some regions and for one unit JG 4 they even got lost due non familiarization .

what might have been ? anyones guess, even if over 1000 Allied a/c were smeared over the countryside they would of been made up in due time.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 4, 2007)

Thanks Eric.

I have noticed that no Spitfires or British planes have appeared yet on the show, and that the entire season is filled up already with other stories. 

Will there be a season three with Battle of Britain stuff, maybe?

Also, are there going to be any on the Eastern Front, Soviet vs. Axis? 

Eric Hartmann should appear.


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## pbfoot (Sep 4, 2007)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> Thanks Eric.
> 
> I have noticed that no Spitfires or British planes have appeared yet on the show, and that the entire season is filled up already with other stories.
> 
> ...


I think I can verify the Spits will be appearing whether in seadon 3 or 4 I can't say yet


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## timshatz (Sep 4, 2007)

So far it is mostly American aircraft and aces. Probably due to access to the information. Easier to do the stuff in the US than travel. But give it time, they're probably getting emails about it. 

Eagle Day would be a good one. Also Operation Clarion. And sooner or later they'll do Ploesti. If they can do Battleships, they can do Ploesti.


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## comiso90 (Sep 14, 2007)

I just saw the latest one about WW 1 combat. I have a new appreciation for the fokker tri-wing. The skidding 180 slip turns it could pull off were amazing. Voss was an outstanding pilot who got a bit too greedy.

I'm surprised those aircraft carried enough ammunition to fight for that long. The fight seemed to go on forever. The best pilots shot carefully!

.



.


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## timshatz (Sep 14, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> The skidding 180 slip turns it could pull off were amazing.
> .



I read about that air battle something like 30 years ago and the manuvers just blew my mind. I couldn't figure out how to make an airplane reverse direction using only rudder and not fall out of the sky. That tripe must've had amazing lift (had squatt for an engine, 110Hp LeRhone knockoff).

There was an article in Air and Space (going on memory again here) about the rudder on the Triplane. It was very similar to that of the Neiuport 17. Both of them were balanced without a fin. Flying them, you were almost constantly in a skid to one side or the other. It doubtless made them extremely manuverable but also very touchy.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Oct 16, 2007)

It sounds now like the show is going to be cancelled, and that the last seven shows after Nightfighters may not even air.


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## comiso90 (Oct 16, 2007)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> It sounds now like the show is going to be cancelled, and that the last seven shows after Nightfighters may not even air.



No freakin way! I knew it was too good to be true. Great show..

If it's canceled, u know they'll release the other episodes for DVD sale.


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## eddie_brunette (Oct 17, 2007)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> Thanks Eric.
> 
> I have noticed that no Spitfires or British planes have appeared yet on the show, and that the entire season is filled up already with other stories.
> 
> ...



Agreed. Nothing against the allies(in WW2), but most episodes cover their antics, nothing about the German Aces, with 100,200,300 kills plus. 
Still it is a fantasitc series, and even tried some of the pilots tactics on IL2.

The first series is on air in SA now, watched :"Death of the Japanese Navy" last night


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## eddie_brunette (Oct 17, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> No freakin way! I knew it was too good to be true. Great show..
> 
> If it's canceled, u know they'll release the other episodes for DVD sale.



I ordered two days ago 

Dogfights DVDs


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Oct 17, 2007)

Well, let's hope they still show it on the telly. But on the History Channel boards for Dogfights they sound pretty glum.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 17, 2007)

WTF!!! Why on earth do they cancell all the good shows and send the crappy ones for years and years....?


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## Bucksnort101 (Oct 17, 2007)

No doubt it is cheaper for them to produce Ice Road Truckers than Dogfights, I'm sure that's part of the equation. Ice Road Truckers, give me a break!!!


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## Matt308 (Oct 17, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> WTF!!! Why on earth do they cancell all the good shows and send the crappy ones for years and years....?



Short attention span of mindless TV watchers. Most are not watching to learn anything, they are looking for purely banal productions.


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## Erich (Oct 17, 2007)

the whole thing is one fat lady joke, a typical of the media TV stations. whatever sells, and WW 2 doesn't


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## enven (Oct 25, 2007)

History channel is straying from WW2 documentaries, both GROUND and AIR warfare...I grow somewhat displeased with this since I could care less about UFO theories and the bible...and lest I forget...ICE ROAD TRUCKERS.


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## mkloby (Oct 26, 2007)

enven said:


> History channel is straying from WW2 documentaries, both GROUND and AIR warfare...I grow somewhat displeased with this since I could care less about UFO theories and the bible...and lest I forget...ICE ROAD TRUCKERS.



I couldn't agree with you more - Ice Rd Truckers is the most uninteresting crap too - so a dude drives a truck over frozen sh*t!


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## enven (Oct 26, 2007)

Yeah; I pretty much scoff at the fact that these guys are actually spotlighted...

Maybe they should just make a reality show based off of pole climbers (in the snow) and sky-scraper/high-rise construction workers...Who get paid even less than them...and do crazy things.

I'd probably fall asleep there too...

(Don't get me wrong, driving on ice is crazy...but it isn't awing..)

Speaking of dogfights: I really enjoyed the episodes...Flying tigers, and the Bismarck episode...Really good explanation, and pretty accurate...

Wish they had more time in the show to get the ground perspective of both engagements...really cool to hear from multiple sources. (Thats TV for ya.)


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## Bucksnort101 (Oct 26, 2007)

Yep, Broadcast TV and Cable is essentially a total waste of time for me now. I'd rather sit in the yard and stare at a Tree to see how much it grows in an evening than waste time sitting on the couch wathcing some bunch of idiots trying to win the Big Prize on some worthless "Reality Show".


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## enven (Oct 26, 2007)

Just play Il2...


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## Bucksnort101 (Oct 26, 2007)

Not into Computer games too much either. Would rather be outside anyway. Some day I'll have enough acreage to build myself an outdoor archery range so I can shoot in the backyard to pass the free hours.


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## enven (Oct 26, 2007)

We're going on a tangent: 

Nonetheless, that is friggen awesome that you do archery: noseblaster - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

This guy has a really cool photo album!


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## Bucksnort101 (Oct 26, 2007)

Traditional Archery only for myself. Would like to see the History Channel do something on that again. 
I was eying up the Dogfights web-site a month or two ago and some of the upcoming shows looked promising. Hopefully they will put them out on a DVD like the first years episodes.


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## Erich (Oct 26, 2007)

the whole thing is bogus dead........


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Nov 20, 2007)

You mean it isn't dead?

On the no room for error episode, they actually say the P-51 was less manuverable than the FW 190-A!

The History Channel gets it right, much to the fans of German aircraft.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Nov 26, 2007)

Has anybody seen the next episode "P-51 Mustang?" I'm now worried whether they even did the CGI for the last episodes. Now, no Blue Nose Mustangs or Fw 190D's.


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## Lucky13 (Nov 26, 2007)

mkloby said:


> I couldn't agree with you more - Ice Rd Truckers is the most uninteresting crap too - so a dude drives a truck over frozen sh*t!



Sometimes I wonder if history is getting downgraded by Discovery and History Channel to the benefit crappy reality shows and other nonsense... Shape up guys for f**k sake!


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## kool kitty89 (Mar 15, 2008)

Its hard to tell if its been cancelled or if its due to the Writers' Strike...

Anyway here's the episode Erich was referring to:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/news/dog-fights-history-channel-8558.html[/url] ) there are interviews from German pilots on this episode: 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QyELSlHVAA_ 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMyYJx7I4i4_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK4y7M1EDYA_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6Vc3TJXASw_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icHRPZn7u_g_


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## Njaco (Mar 15, 2008)

Who needs cable when you have WW2.net and YouTube! Thanks Kool!


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## kool kitty89 (Mar 16, 2008)

I personally don't have cable myself, I discovered Dogfights last summer while at a Hotel while on vacation in Washinton D.C. last summer.  
In fact it was this trip with visits to the NASM which rekindeled my interest in this subject and led me to this site! (I've always been interesed in aviation as well as history, with both Grandfathers being involved with flying along with a couple close family friends being involved with it, but this really got me interested in the topic again)


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## Lucky13 (Mar 16, 2008)

I hope that they'll bring back the series again....it's great!


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## lesofprimus (Mar 16, 2008)

The ELBE episode was great, however the name is still in question.... I believe Erich has info on this that proves the "Detachment ELBE" moniker to be a farce...

I really enjoyed the LW inteviews and honesty about what they did and for what reasons.... I would assume that the tail gunner aboard the B-17 in the last segment was lost, but they didnt say...


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## Njaco (Mar 16, 2008)

I think he was Les. But the tail gunner in the B-24 survived, they said they all made it out.

I don't have cable (refuse to buy into a monopoly) so these are great when they're posted like this.


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## Lucky13 (Mar 16, 2008)

I'll be getting the dvd's later....


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Mar 20, 2008)

I'm hoping somebody on youtube will post Death of the Luftwaffe.

Anybody seen it?

I saw the nightfighters episode yesterday on youtube (finally) and it was pretty cool. P-61, that's a first for movies!

I'm hoping if they do a season three they could do one with Dick Bong and his P-38.


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## fly boy (Mar 21, 2008)

the rammkommando elbe is the wrong first part the name was zoderkommando elbe


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## SeaSkua (Mar 21, 2008)

Thats a GREAT series! Does ANYONE know how many DOGFIGHT shows there are?


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## Erich (Mar 21, 2008)

the term is : Sonderkommando

and yes I know one of the members of that ill-fated unit who may be writing up a book on the mission but has been trying hard to figure how to get a web-site up in Germany for years


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Mar 22, 2008)

> Thats a GREAT series! Does ANYONE know how many DOGFIGHT shows there are?




Dogfights (TV series) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is a list of the episodes.


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## Screaming Eagle (Mar 22, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> Its hard to tell if its been cancelled or if its due to the Writers' Strike...
> 
> Anyway here's the episode Erich was referring to:
> http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/news/dog-fights-history-channel-8558.html[/url] ) there are interviews from German pilots on this episode:
> ...




Hey that was on today! I have seen a couple of the episodes and I loved them. But ever since switching over to a new cable T.V plan I haven't been able to watch it anymore


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## joy17782 (Mar 22, 2008)

i have watched them all , and i think there great, i like the korean war show ,


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## Erich (Mar 23, 2008)

anyone see the recent one with author/artists Jerry Crandall and his interviews of the Sturmgruppen ? I missed that one sadly

E ~


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## joy17782 (Mar 23, 2008)

yeah i did and it was very good , also the guys were very proud of what they did , say what you want about germans but there a proud lot!!!!!


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## Adolf Galland Fighter ace (Mar 23, 2008)

Enjoyed the cg no idea how accurate they are other then the enemy seems to always be made to be less then there allied counterparts.

Perhaps some of you who have more experience will correct me but all in all I thought it better then the Simpson's, as an example.

And glad it went to a second season hope three will follow.


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## Lucky13 (Mar 24, 2008)

If History Channel know what's good for them, they will make more episodes, instead for that cr*pload of bullsh*t named ice road truckers and something about loggers.....what the f*ck does that have to do with history?


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## lesofprimus (Mar 24, 2008)

Heres a listing of Episodes....
*
Season TWO*
Ep1 KAMIKAZE
Imperial Japan, desperate to prop up their rapidly collapsing empire, sent poorly trained volunteer pilots in suicide attacks against American naval targets. This wasn't the only time pilots used the plane itself as a weapon. German, Russian, and even US ramming tactics will be explored.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3ct3ITiiYk_

Ep2 DEATH OF THE LUFTWAFFE
German ramming of American bombers by the Sonderkommando Elbe, on April 7, 1945. Note: This episode is sometimes combined with the previous one and shown as a single, two hour episode called "Kamikaze". 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QyELSlHVAA_

Ep3 JET VS. JET
In the skies over North Korea F86s slug it out with communist MiG-15s. American pilots are in pursuit of a previously unknown glory...the title of jet ace.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCCLkX_I8rU_

Ep4 THUNDERBOLT
The P-47 Thunderbolt, or Jug as it was known distinguished itself as one of the most lethal dogfighters of World War II- a classic warbird best remembered for its size, ruggedness, and reputation for protecting the pilot.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zitQJr36si0_

Ep5 GUN KILLS OF VIETNAM
The era of missiles had arrived. Electronic warfare was coming of age. But when technology fails pilots are forced to do combat the old-fashioned way-maneuver in close and blow the enemy out of the sky with guns.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njwtQAonthg_

Ep6 DESERT ACES
Pilots of the Israeli Air Force. The episode covers combat missions flown by Ran Ronen and by "ace of aces" Giora Epstein. Ronen used the French-built Mirage III to engage Hawker Hunters. Epstein flew a Mirage against Egyptian Sukhoi Su-7s in the Six-Day War, and piloted a Nesher against MiG-21s in the Yom Kippur War. 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ2M7ceCD14_

Ep7 THE FIRST DOGFIGHTERS
Some of the greatest fighter pilots of all time engaged in epic duels over the battered landscape of France and Belgium. Fokker triplanes, Spads, and SE5s go head to head in World War I's most famous dogfights.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TStRqIsIOh8_

Ep8 NO ROOM FOR ERROR
It's where a pilot can ill afford to make a mistake...but where dogfights are inexorably drawn. Down on the deck-at treetop level-the margin for error is zero.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeFix_i03ZI_

Ep9 NIGHT FIGHTERS
From Radar equipped Hellcats in the Pacific to modern stealth technology.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDH_qFOZHE8_

Ep10 THE BLOODIEST DAY
May 10, 1972. The bloodiest day of air combat during the Vietnam war featured numerous twisting and turning dogfigts. Bob Lodge and Roger Locher pioneer electronic warfare and engage in one of the most exciting air battles of the war.
_NO YOU TUBE FOUND_

Ep11 P-51 MUSTANG
In the European theater of world war II the P-51 Mustang proved itself to be the quintessential dogfighter and went on to become the most famous warbird in history.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlfOWZHEGNk_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jopyzbsaMf0_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdCm5z2RpI8_

Ep12 DOGFIGHTS OF DESERT STORM
The planes have changed but the jeopardy remains the same. American fighter pilots pit F-15s against Iraqi MiG-25s and advanced MiG-29s as part of Operation Desert Storm. 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZmnVqkKapI_

Ep13 TUSKEGEE AIRMEN
African-American pilots of the 332nd distinguished themselves as one of the most successful fighter groups of the war, despite the bigotry and prejudice they faced from their own countrymen.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O9uJjibBKo_

Ep14 MiG Killers of the Midway 
Recalling Vietnam War battles involving F-4 Phantoms from the USS Midway. This episode portrays dogfights fought by J.C. Smith, Henry "Bart" Bartholomay, Pat Arwood, Mike "Taco" Bell, Ronald "Mugs" McKeown, and John C. "Jack" Ensch. 
_NO YOU TUBE FOUND_

Ep15 SUPERSONIC
Stories of the development of jet aircraft and their subsequent introduction into combat. Includes stories of test pilots who were the first Germans and Americans to fly these aircraft and the great air battles that were fought through the years at Supersonic speed.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bxjCI5PKMg_

Ep16 DEATH OF THE LUFTWAFFE
The Luftwaffe's last great offensive was launched on January 1, 1945...called Operation Bodenplatte. Oscar Boesch was a German pilot who took part. Sandy Moats and Alden Rigby were American pilots whose airbase was swarmed by fighters. After this day, the Luftwaffe was shattered as an effective fighting force.
_NO YOU TUBE FOUND_

Ep17 Secret Weapons
Secret weapons of World War II, including Japanese kaiten suicide submarines, German Me 163 Komet rocket powered fighter planes, and the American remote controlled airplanes of Operation Aphrodite.
_NO YOU TUBE FOUND_
*
Season ONE*
Ep1 MIG ALLEY
Air Force fighter pilots risk their lives flying sleek F-86 Sabres above "Mig Alley" - the most dangerous piece of sky in the Korean War. The high-speed twists and turns of history's first jet dogfights pit American aces Robbie Risner and Ralph Parr in the battles of their lives against nimble Russian-built MIG-15 fighters.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBBz4Eo4Gak_

Ep2 AIR AMBUSH
Legendary fighter pilot, Colonel Robin Olds, sets an intricate trap for the North Vietnamese MiG-21's. His squadron, the Wolfpack, disguises its lethal F-4 Phantoms as vulnerable bombers. The MIGs scream in to challenge the Americans. The result is the most elaborate air sting of the war...CODE NAME...Operation Bolo.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9i9F8jmyrc_

Ep3 FLYING TIGERS
Two weeks after Pearl Harbor, a courageous, rag-tag band of American mercenaries dare to challenge the overwhelming might of the Japanese Air Force. The legendary "Flying Tigers" slash through the skies of China, and help vanquish the unstoppable Japanese. Follow leading Tiger aces Tex Hill and John Alison as their P-40 Tomahawks fight to the death against the agile Japanese I-97 Nate.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzuIn9UTGaU_

Ep4 GUADALCANAL
August 1942...the Solomon Islands. Heroic, die-hard American pilots of the tiny Cactus Air Force match skills and instincts against top Japanese aces as they battle in the skies above Guadalcanal. Legendary Marine Capt John Smith and Medal of Honor recipients Jeff De Blanc and Jim Swett pit their tough F-4F Wildcats against the relentless Japanese Zeros. At stake - the fate of the Pacific War.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNn0FxV3qVQ_

Ep5 HELL OVER HANOI
The skies over Vietnam. They fight in a supersonic world, where split second decisions determine if they live - or die. American F4 Phantom pilots Fred Olmsted and Dan Cherry take on the famed MiG-21 - the most feared threat in the sky. And one American, Steve Ritchie, becomes a dog fighting legend as an Air Force Ace. You're in the cockpit with some of the fiercest dogfighting ever seen in Vietnam!

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwz5Qdg-aak_

Ep6 THE ZERO KILLERS
1943...the skies over the Pacific. The infamous Japanese Zero is decimating American aircraft. No allied plane can match Japan's deadliest fighter plane manned by killed Imperial Navy veterans. The American Navy rushes to deploy a new fighter to take on the unstoppable Zero...the F6F Hellcat. The Zero has met its match. Now, you're in the cockpit with legendary dogfighters Robert Duncan, Hamilton McWhorter and Alex Vraciu...their epic dogfights blazing a new chapter in the annals of aerial warfare.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ob3lvqowHo_

Ep7 DEATH OF THE JAPANESE NAVY
1944...the Pacific. It is one of the most amazing, lopsided naval battles in history: A mighty Japanese fleet let by the Yamato, the biggest battleship in the world - versus Taffy 3, a small U.S. task unit of tin can destroyers and baby flat-tops...ships too weak to fight and too slow to run. David battles Goliath in a fight for survival - with the lives of thousands of American soldiers in the balance.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRzOiQH1p8c_ 

Ep8 THE LAST GUNFIGHTER
The U.S. Navy's top fighter, the F8 Crusader flown by skilled fighter jocks Paul Speer and Phil Wood, tackles the fierce North Vietnamese MiG over the killing skies of Vietnam. Re-live one of the longest, gut-wrenching dogfights on record as Lt. Commander Richard Schaffert - out of missles and with his guns jammed - takes on a lethal MiG-17 and the best enemy pilot he's ever faced. He's got one chance - the amazing capabilities of the F8 Crusader, "the last gunfighter".

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tFX78bLM-Y_

Ep9 Long Odds - Swede Vejtasa
Showcases survival stories of bomber pilots battling fighter aircraft. US Army Air Force B-17 Flying Fortress vs. Mitsubishi Zeroes Ki-46 Dinah; US Air Force F-105 Thunderchief vs. North Vietnamese Air Force MiG-17; US Navy SBD Dauntless vs. Mitsubishi Zero. 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEnDjwXnj3Y_

Ep10 Dogfights of the Middle East 
Israeli Air Force Mirage III vs. Egyptian Air Force MiG-17 MiG-19; defection of an Iraqi Air Force MiG-21; Israeli Air Force F-15 Eagle vs. Syrian Air Force MiG-21. 
_NO YOU TUBE FOUND_

Ep11 Hunt for the Bismarck
The HMS Hood is sunk, then British Royal Navy Swordfish planes attack the German battleship Bismarck. 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4Xn6Oy52hY_


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## lesofprimus (Mar 24, 2008)

*PILOT EPISODE*
US Air Service SPAD S.XIII piloted by Eddie Rickenbacker vs. German Fokker D.VII and LVG C.VI; US Army Air Force P-51 Mustang piloted by Bud Anderson vs. Luftwaffe Messerschmitt Me-109; US Air Force F-86 Sabre piloted by Frederick "Boots" Blesse vs. North Korean MiG-15; US Navy F-4 Phantom piloted by Duke Cunningham and Willy "Irish" Driscoll vs. North Vietnamese MiG-17. 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGiDu8BMEww_


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## kool kitty89 (Mar 26, 2008)

Here's the full version of "Zero Killer" albeit in the wrong AR... (as are quite a few)


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7XJGsbhCgc_


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## lesofprimus (Mar 26, 2008)

Thanks KK......

It took me a long ass time to get that above post all put together... U pricks better recognize and show the proper respect....


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## Njaco (Mar 26, 2008)

Sssshhhh, I'm still halfway down the list! Now I have to reboot Youtube!


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## Old Wizard (Mar 26, 2008)

In the March issue of Aviation History, James Jabara gets a black mark for shooting down a fellow pilot's F-86...a case of 'MIG Madness'.
This kind of thing happened often enough for it to be hushed up.


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## rochie (Mar 27, 2008)

i saw desert aces episode !
giora epstein what a pilot outnumbered 11-1 but stayed and fought cos he still had ammo and fuel never thought of going home till he was short of both


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Mar 28, 2008)

Desert Aces was really cool.


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## Wayne Little (Mar 28, 2008)

Yeah I thought so too, watched it Thursday night....

Top stuff putting up the full list Dan, thanks....


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## Erich (Mar 28, 2008)

ok guys I must be blind which one did J. Crandall speak on about on the Sturmgruppen .... ?

thanks


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## Wayne Little (Mar 28, 2008)

Found this Eric....doesn't directly answer your question though? but Jerry obviously was involved in a couple of episodes...

"Hi guys;
Just wanted to let you know that Jerry Crandall will appear in another upcoming episode of Dogfights. “Death of the Luftwaffe” which airs on March 7th. This is the episode that focuses on one battle amidst Operation Bodenplatte…the famous “Legend of Y-29.” According to the producer, he thinks this one’s shaping up to be one of their finest episodes (if not the finest). The animators put in a lot of extra effort, and it’s a unique format as it focuses on just one aerial battle for the whole episode—weaving together the experiences of multiple pilots.

The producer went on to tell us that he thinks this is a “can’t miss” episode for all Dogfights fans…especially since he thinks this will be one of the final episodes. 

Thought you guys would want to know. Cheers, Judy Crandall"


and this from July'07 also on Hyperscale by Judy..
"The producer contacted Jerry some time ago to go on the show to talk about late war Luftaffe, tactics, aircraft, pilots and so on. When they told Jerry the main thrust of this show is on the Elbe mission, Jerry wasn't too thrilled about talking about that and suggested they interview some Luftwaffe pilots who were involved in this mission. So Jerry called Dr. Fritz Marktscheffel to see if he would be interested in having a German-based camera crew from the History channel interview him. He had reservations about what questions they would ask him, so Jerry spoke with the producer about these reservations and the producer assured him it would not be political. They were only interested in the mission itself. So, after many emails back and forth he agreed to the interview, whew!

They interviewed Jerry for 4 hours on camera on the details leading up to this mission, including Wilde Sau, Sturmstaffel, Sturmgruppen, pilot personalities, aircraft and tactics. The producer is telling us that the bulk of Jerry's talk will be concentrated on later dogfight shows featuring some of Jerry's Luftwaffe pilot friends. "

So it would seem some has been used and some for the future? maybe , I have n't seen the Luftwaffe shows yet.


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## Erich (Mar 28, 2008)

well I missed the episode when Jerry talked of the Sturm pilots, I know Fritz M and he was not too thrilled with the History Chanel guys, though he has been ripped in Germany when he tried to get the news media right on what really happened in April of 45. Wayne I remember reading Judy's blurb on the vent, in fact I received it via email......


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## Wayne Little (Mar 29, 2008)

Ah, no worries Erich, I havent seen any of the Jerry Crandall interview stuff yet, so looking forward to it..


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## Wayne Little (Mar 29, 2008)

Ep.5 Gun kills of Vietnam on now!!


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## rochie (Mar 30, 2008)

saw gun kills of vietnam last night, great episode


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## Wayne Little (Apr 4, 2008)

Just watched 'Death of the Luftwaffe', taped it from Thursday night.

Eric, FYI...Jerry speaks for about 20 - 30 seconds about 10 minutes into the episode and thats it!


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## kool kitty89 (Apr 4, 2008)

There are a couple LW vets that speak though, not just the one.


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## Wayne Little (Apr 5, 2008)

kool kitty, I was referring to Jerry Crandall, rather than the LW vets...


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## olbrat (Apr 7, 2008)

I just saw the episode with bombers dogfighting last night...

I can only say that I would like to offer my thanks, gratitude and a big salute to all you military aviators and support people out there. Whatever you men and women have been paid, it ain't near enough!


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## smg (Apr 7, 2008)

yeappreatty good show i likethe one abot the flying tigers and nigth fithing


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## drgondog (Apr 7, 2008)

I particularly enjoyed watching the replay of Thorsness/Johnson fight to protect the Sandy attempts to locate Thorsness' wingman.

The 355th got two of the 12 Medal of Honor awards for USAF in VietNam but Thorsness and Deflethsen probably deserved the Medal as much for what they endured in the Hilton. They demonstrated why the 355th was top Mig killers in VN until 1972.. wasn't about agility - all about 'opportunity' and trying to survive.

The 355th dropped 202,000 Tons of iron on North Vietnam.. B-17's dropped 600,000 tons in all of their careers in all theatres..

Steve Daisley will get around to getting me the 105's for both of those missions but maybe not before the reunion this month - I will stick them in the Book Photos' forum when I get them


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## pbfoot (Apr 7, 2008)

I laughed with the Mossie with the RCAF roundel somebody messed up


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## stasoid (Apr 8, 2008)

Cool show!! Nicely done! 
But, felt a little bit bored after several episodes. Looks like a one-sided story or too much of propaganda: Americans fighting alone and always win... Is that accurate? Is that how it was?
I heard that over 75% of its aircrafts Luftwaffe lost on Eastern Front. Just curious if we ever see that part.


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## drgondog (Apr 8, 2008)

stasoid said:


> Cool show!! Nicely done!
> But, felt a little bit bored after several episodes. Looks like a one-sided story or too much of propaganda: Americans fighting alone and always win... Is that accurate? Is that how it was?
> I heard that over 75% of its aircrafts Luftwaffe lost on Eastern Front. Just curious if we ever see that part.



Highly doubtful that even 25% of Luftwaffe losses were on Eastern front. From early the mid 1943 the Luftwaffe started shifting Fighter units from Ost and LuftFlotte 2 to re-organize into Channel Front and Germany.

Just daylight fighter adjustments - by May 1943

In the east, JG 54 remained stable, keeping Stab., I.and II., losing III. and 10. and 11. Staffel.. JG3 lost Stab. and I. ... JG 52 lost I. ... - all lost to east or south and redeployed to West.

By May 1944 the`following units were pulled back from East and south to Austria and Germany

LuftFlotte Reich added

III./JG1, III.and IV./JG3, I. and II./G5, Stab. and III. and 10. Staffel/G11, II. and III. and IV./JG27, II./JG53, III./JG54, JG300, JG301, JG 302, JG 400

LuftFlotte 3 added

I./JG26, 

LuftFlotte's 1, 4 and 6. with most coverage to USSR

10./jg54, lost II.&III./JG3, lost 15.Staffel JG/52, lost I.JG26, lost IV. and 15. Staffel/JG51

The combined day fighter strength in May 1942 for all units opposed to VVS were LF1 (71), LF4 (132), LF5 (97) and Kdo Ost(179)

one year later, after transfers LF1 (77), LF4 (105), LF5 (115), LF6 (108)

In May 1944 the East had, after transfers again had LF1 (88), LF4 (139), LF5 (67).

The drop in Serviceable day fighters in the East was 405 to 290 and parts of LF4 were deployed in Austria to resiste both 8th and 15th attacks to SE Germany and Czechoslovakia, and parts of JG5 were deployed to resist 8th AF attcks in Norway, Denmark and northern bomber routes, so the actual strength against the VVS was less than 290 day fighters.

The gain for LF3 and LF Reich in that same period was

LF3 (215) and LF Reich (198) in May 1943 to May 1944 was LF3 (115) and LFR (439) = and increase from 413 to 554 Day fighters. 

This comparison between East and West is strictly to compare the shift in strength from Russia to try to stop the Allied strikes from England..

Elements of JG4, JG5, 53, 77 and KdoSud Ost were arrayed to resist RAF and USAAF strikes in Balkans and Southern Germany -

So of the serviceable day fighter strength of 1,063 s/e fighters a mximum of 28% was devoted to trying to stop VVS day attacks, the rest devoted to Allied day attacks.

The largest percentage of dedicated forces was t/e fighters both night and day - about 90% dedicated to fighting in the West.

All this from Dr Price's Luftwaffe Data book.

So, conclusions? Nowhere near 25% of LW losses occurred on Ost front and that would be generous.


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## kool kitty89 (Apr 8, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> I laughed with the Mossie with the RCAF roundel somebody messed up



What episode was that in?


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## pbfoot (Apr 8, 2008)

Supersonic was the episode , at the beginning .


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## lesofprimus (Apr 8, 2008)

Good info Bill... Have to agree with u.... Alot, and I mean ALOT of successful pilots on the Ost Front, when being re-assigned to the West, got smoked within the first mission or 2....

The West was the grinder for the Luftwaffe Sausage that the 8th devoured...


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## drgondog (Apr 8, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> Good info Bill... Have to agree with u.... Alot, and I mean ALOT of successful pilots on the Ost Front, when being re-assigned to the West, got smoked within the first mission or 2....
> 
> The West was the grinder for the Luftwaffe Sausage that the 8th devoured...



The giant 'polish' was central and eastern Germany in 1944 but a whole lot of hot dogs were consumed by RAF and 9th, 12th on the edges, and 15th from Ploesti to Vienna and points north - 

It is notable to me in a lot of the current unit bios, that the LW 'old hands' noted the RAF regained the aggressiveness it seemed to have lost on the Kanalfront through 42-mid 1943 - and increasingly took on JG26 and JG2 on sweeps along with 8th and then 9th AF T-Bolts through the war's end. It wasn't courage of skill but tactics and the 8th and 9th AF bombers were the 'bait' along with RAF day bombing with mediums.

A lot of bomber crews died and went POW to suck in the Luftwaffe.


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## kool kitty89 (Apr 8, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> Supersonic was the episode , at the beginning .



That one's not on youtube I think, just a clip.


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## kool kitty89 (Apr 8, 2008)

stasoid said:


> Cool show!! Nicely done!
> But, felt a little bit bored after several episodes. Looks like a one-sided story or too much of propaganda: Americans fighting alone and always win... Is that accurate? Is that how it was?
> I heard that over 75% of its aircrafts Luftwaffe lost on Eastern Front. Just curious if we ever see that part.



Less than half the episodes have been specifically about WWII events, and of those that are there are a couple from axis POV, and some from other allied POV as well. (LW's most dangerous mission, Hunt the Bismark, etc.)

If the series continues the'll probably add some more from other POV. Though a bit commonly done, I'd still like to se one on the BoB, and it would be interesting to have an episode discussing the few US pilots managing to score kills at Pearl Harbor. (George Welch scoring the highest iirc)


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## pbfoot (Apr 8, 2008)

stasoid said:


> Cool show!! Nicely done!
> But, felt a little bit bored after several episodes. Looks like a one-sided story or too much of propaganda: Americans fighting alone and always win... Is that accurate? Is that how it was?
> I heard that over 75% of its aircrafts Luftwaffe lost on Eastern Front. Just curious if we ever see that part.


But its an US show it would be no different if we had our own Canadian version it would focus on Canadians.


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## stasoid (Apr 8, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> But its an US show it would be no different if we had our own Canadian version it would focus on Canadians.



I understand it's a US show, but it's a documentary, not a Hollywood movie where Americans are fighting a bunch of idiots who cant fly and cant shoot.

As I said, I liked the show, but got a little bit bored as if I'm watching a hockey game Canada - Jamaica and Canada leads fifteen to nothing in the first period. I'm still enjoying the game but what's the point to watch if you already know the result.


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## kool kitty89 (Apr 9, 2008)

stasoid said:


> As I said, I liked the show, but got a little bit bored as if I'm watching a hockey game Canada - Jamaica and Canada leads fifteen to nothing in the first period. I'm still enjoying the game but what's the point to watch if you already know the result.



But won't that happen with any historical event that you know the outcome of?

But I'm not entirely sure what you mean otherwise, though the show is usually oriented from the US POV, it is a US show and thus tends to be oriented as such. (plus US pilots and other people for interview are much easier to acess in general in this case as well)

And it's hardly only enemy planes getting shot down either. (granted they do show a bit more of that though) 


Or maybe you just haven't watched the right episodes.


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## bf109 Emil (Apr 14, 2008)

It is a shame Japanese lack of war footage doesn't show more typical, turning dog-fights, common in earlier years, as opposed to majority of European theatre kills/victories resulting from being bounced, and run/climb as Pacific pilots did to avoid a turning fight with the nimble zero, then again why turn and risk being blindsided, when a dive zoom/climb does the same result, an allows a pilot to return to base or carrier, a favorite of Galland and jg26 pilots tactics...but whatever works..

bf109 Emil


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## drgondog (Apr 14, 2008)

bf109 Emil said:


> It is a shame Japanese lack of war footage doesn't show more typical, turning dog-fights, common in earlier years, as opposed to majority of European theatre kills/victories resulting from being bounced, and run/climb as Pacific pilots did to avoid a turning fight with the nimble zero, then again why turn and risk being blindsided, when a dive zoom/climb does the same result, an allows a pilot to return to base or carrier, a favorite of Galland and jg26 pilots tactics...but whatever works..
> 
> bf109 Emil



Given a choice you use your advantages against your opponent's weak points.

Survivors learned not to fight Japanes ships in the low speed/horizontal after watching friends in fireballs.

German pilots were used to diving to escape a Spitfire.. They have no descendents after using same tactic against Mustangs and Thunderbolts.

Gene pools continued with fast learners.

US fighters that fought on the deck low speed horizontal fights often became dead or POW when matched against a good pilot in a 190 or 109... or tried to out roll and reverse in fights against a 190 at medium speeds


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## JoeB (Apr 15, 2008)

bf109 Emil said:


> It is a shame Japanese lack of war footage doesn't show more typical, turning dog-fights, common in earlier years,


Link has portions of the Japanese wartime movie 'Kato Hayabusa Regiment' about the 64th Sentai. Later on in that clip there's footage of 'kills' v. P-40 and Buffalo, however staged ones using captured a/c with Japanese pilots: a Japanese 'Hollywood' view of what the combats were like, but that's kind of what "Dogfights" is, just a higher tech version.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwXj4zgKD0Q_

My problem with that show, which I confess I haven't watched much of, mainly heard about, is it doesn't AFAIK even *try* to present what happened in the given combats as seen from the other side, even when that info is easily available in some cases. I guess the ship 'dogfights' do include that but the aerial ones don't AFAIK. The pilot's view of what happened is legitimate as that, what he perceived, but that's often not what really happened, through no fault of his. But I don't get the idea of re-enacting it in hi-tech at this point in time, when the other side's account is reasonably knowable but the show's writers and producers just ignore it.

Example Swede Vejtasa's 3 victories over Zero's at Coral Sea. The match of that combat to Japanese records has been in print for 20+ years, by a first rate air combat historian John Lundstrom (in "The First Team"): it was Zuikaku's fighter squadron and they suffered no losses. Vejtasa is rightly honored for his effort and bravery in that combat, but just doesn't make sense IMHO to keep trumpetting the claim itself when apparently clear and detailed opposing records, in that case, don't support it, especially since some of his later victories in F4F *do* check out.

Joe


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## drgondog (Apr 15, 2008)

JoeB said:


> Link has portions of the Japanese wartime movie 'Kato Hayabusa Regiment' about the 64th Sentai. Later on in that clip there's footage of 'kills' v. P-40 and Buffalo, however staged ones using captured a/c with Japanese pilots: a Japanese 'Hollywood' view of what the combats were like, but that's kind of what "Dogfights" is, just a higher tech version.
> 
> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwXj4zgKD0Q_
> 
> ...




Joe - while I am inclined to agree in 99% of your comments I wonder if in Swede's case we decide his gunner is totally unreliable as a witness because the Zuikaku's records referenced above... then I would ask how the engagement was isloated to Zuikaku (and totally am clueless relative to all the facts available) - so I presume when Lundstrom published his facts there was zero possibility of 'gaps' in the facts?

You apparently have read it and are convinced that Lundstrom's presentation is "unimpeachable". How does he account for survival of Zuikaku's logs and records ?

I'm inclined to ask if all the records are available and how they were preserved following its sinking before coming back to ask the question of both Vejtasa and his gunner. I respect your scholarship and I personally know how difficult it is to do 'matching' -


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## pbfoot (Apr 15, 2008)

Even have a Hurri in that video , plus a roman candle in the first para jump


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## JoeB (Apr 15, 2008)

drgondog said:


> Joe - while I am inclined to agree in 99% of your comments I wonder if in Swede's case we decide his gunner is totally unreliable as a witness because the Zuikaku's records referenced above... then I would ask how the engagement was isloated to Zuikaku (and totally am clueless relative to all the facts available)
> 
> You apparently have read it and are convinced that Lundstrom's presentation is "unimpeachable". How does he account for survival of Zuikaku's logs and records ?


First almost anything like that depends what burden of proof you set out. If you had to prove in court 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that a victory credit was not supported by an actual enemy loss, it would usually be difficult to do that. But OTOH if records are ostensibly detailed and complete, seem to describe the same combat, mention losses for other combats in fair detail but don't mention that one, the simplest most likely explanation is honest mistake by claimant(s). 

In this case specifically Lundstrom is not infallible as of course nobody is. But based on his books, and what I've seen him a few times posting on other forums he's among the best air war historians IMO. That particular reference comes from "The First Team" pg 250: "The Japanese, however, lost no fighters in this combat". The apparent main source is Vol. 49 of the Japanese Official History ("Senshi Sosho"="war history series"), which has 109 pages on Coral Sea. He is able to identify the particular sub unit of the Zuikaku sdn, the 14th Shotai, which reported a combat with 'Curtiss bombers', encountered near the US carriers while escorting their torpedo planes on the May 8 strike (exactly the situation described from US side, the SBD's fulfilling the dubious role of anti-torpedo plane CAP, the torpedo planes swept right by and the SBD's found themselves fighting to survive v the Zero's). He ties in each other combat described in the Japanese source for both Zuikaku and Shokaku Zeroes which comprised the escort of that strike, with one described in US sources, and gives the name of each Japanese pilot involved in each phase. Only 1 Zero was lost on that May 8 strike escort. It was from that same 14th Shotai of 'Zui'; ditched on the way back pilot rescued, but Lundstrom ties it to a later combat with F4F's. Altogether at Coral Sea May 7/8th the Japanese fighter air combat losses were 3 Zero's and 2 Type 96's ('Claude'), with details given for each loss.

AFAIK it's typical for JNAF oriented volumes of Senshi Sosho for early war to be footnoted to specific action reports and other solid documentation, which did survive in many cases. That 100+ volume series was published from late '60's to early 80's in large part from a mass of records the US took at the end of the war, mainly didn't get around to translating, and returned to Japan in the mid 1950's. Shokaku and Zuikaku were not sunk until 1944. 

This is not the case always, somewhat off topic I've been reviewing Senshi Sosho Vol 34 (pretty slowly  ) to see if I can squeeze out a little more info on JAAF operations in the Philippines in 1941-42 besides what's referred to in English books which used that source. It's much less detailed, and the footnotes are mostly to recollections of participants. But those vague passages don't pretend to describe details they can't support with footnotes, and I don't think there are authors actually concluding the Japanese didn't lose planes in encounters that aren't even mentioned in the history, in those cases you just don't know. In a few other cases it's very detailed w/ footnotes to actual reports (number and type of bombs dropped in particular missions v Corregidor for example), and I wouldn't hesitate to say that's what happened in same detail, as far as the Japanese knew. I tend to trust that the detail in Lundstrom's conclusions was in line with the amount of detail in Vol 49 (and some other sources he mentions, like correspondance with the leading Japanese air historians etc, he's also writing a book now just about Coral Sea with deeper Japanese info, but I doubt his basic conclusions will change).

Joe


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## drgondog (Apr 16, 2008)

JoeB said:


> First almost anything like that depends what burden of proof you set out. If you had to prove in court 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that a victory credit was not supported by an actual enemy loss, it would usually be difficult to do that. But OTOH if records are ostensibly detailed and complete, seem to describe the same combat, mention losses for other combats in fair detail but don't mention that one, the simplest most likely explanation is honest mistake by claimant(s).
> 
> In this case specifically Lundstrom is not infallible as of course nobody is. But based on his books, and what I've seen him a few times posting on other forums he's among the best air war historians IMO. That particular reference comes from "The First Team" pg 250: "The Japanese, however, lost no fighters in this combat". The apparent main source is Vol. 49 of the Japanese Official History ("Senshi Sosho"="war history series"), which has 109 pages on Coral Sea. He is able to identify the particular sub unit of the Zuikaku sdn, the 14th Shotai, which reported a combat with 'Curtiss bombers', encountered near the US carriers while escorting their torpedo planes on the May 8 strike (exactly the situation described from US side, the SBD's fulfilling the dubious role of anti-torpedo plane CAP, the torpedo planes swept right by and the SBD's found themselves fighting to survive v the Zero's). He ties in each other combat described in the Japanese source for both Zuikaku and Shokaku Zeroes which comprised the escort of that strike, with one described in US sources, and gives the name of each Japanese pilot involved in each phase. Only 1 Zero was lost on that May 8 strike escort. It was from that same 14th Shotai of 'Zui'; ditched on the way back pilot rescued, but Lundstrom ties it to a later combat with F4F's. Altogether at Coral Sea May 7/8th the Japanese fighter air combat losses were 3 Zero's and 2 Type 96's ('Claude'), with details given for each loss.
> 
> ...



Joe - I appreciate the detailed feedback.. I have often wondered how much of the Japanese records survived. Candidly it has never occurred to me that the Japanese would falsify their records - I just wondered how records were retained when the ships sank and wonder how much we have of Hornet, Lex and York town for example now that I am thinking about it.


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## Ramirezzz (Apr 19, 2008)

drgondog said:


> Highly doubtful that even 25% of Luftwaffe losses were on Eastern front. From early the mid 1943 the Luftwaffe started shifting Fighter units from Ost and LuftFlotte 2 to re-organize into Channel Front and Germany.
> 
> 
> [...]
> ...


How so? 
until early 1944 the amount of the LW units both on East and West was roughly even, and so was ist in early 1945 as well. So, practically, that means the "uneven" period lasted less than a year. 
The only way to research the losses percentage of the LW on both fronts is a direct comparison of numbers of lost aicraft, but that seems roughly possible to do.


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## drgondog (Apr 21, 2008)

Ramirezzz said:


> How so?
> until early 1944 the amount of the LW units both on East and West was roughly even, and so was ist in early 1945 as well. So, practically, that means the "uneven" period lasted less than a year.
> 
> *Not so according to Price, and I was focusing on day fighter units only and only those devoted to stopping 8th AF in west. Didn't bother to focus on the LW units protecting Ploesti or anything to the South. Nor did we spend much time on the Order of Battle from January 1945 to the end of the war. Those records range from non existant to not very good.
> ...



I don't disagree with you but you need to come up with some facts and references to refute the ones I posted?


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## Udet (Apr 22, 2008)

drgondog said:


> I don't disagree with you but you need to come up with some facts and references to refute the ones I posted?



Bill, he will not come up with any for he has none. His sole mission here is to defend the Bolshevik view point [a very weak defence by the way].


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## drgondog (Apr 22, 2008)

Udet said:


> Bill, he will not come up with any for he has none. His sole mission here is to defend the Bolshevik view point [a very weak defence by the way].



Adrian - your avatar is, as always, intriguing.. Is she demonstrating high buoyancy, biological, flotation devices?

Does the Bolshevik view point admit the existance of such devices?


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## stasoid (Apr 23, 2008)

At the end of December, 1942, JG54 began to change their BF-109's on FW-190A-4, which was superior to BF-109 in most regards. But number of losses did not went down. Total change to FW-190 was only completed by May, 1943. 
On January 9, already known to us Lutenant Golubev, had been leading flight of 4 I-16 type 29 from the 4th GIAP. He attack in area of Ladoga Lake German fighter of unknown type and destroyed it. Second German fighter had been damaged by Golubev wingman, but he manage to excape to the clouds. He crashed later. 

JG54 lost two new FW-190's and two aces. To the home base it Gatchina did not return pilots from the staff "shtaffel" Alfred Detke(33 victories) and Joseph Brehtl(27 victories). It was his FW-190 was damaged by Golubev's wingman. Berhtl attempted to crash land on the fuselage and was killed on impact North-East of Mgi.” 



4 GIAP/VVS-KBF continued operating I-16s until 1943. This I-16 was brought down by a pilot of I./JG 54 in the same area where 4 GIAP/VVS-KBF operated. 

Comment: Not really 4 GIAP, but 4 GIAP/VVS-KBF. Vasiliy Golubev’s rank at that time was that of a Kapitan. *On January 9, 1943, JG 54 registered no losses.*

Black Cross/Red Star: Air War Over the Eastern Front by Christer Bergstrom

Summary of Axis and Soviet Aircraft production during the war 

----- Soviet German Italian Hungarian Romanian Japanese 
1941 15,735 11,776 3,503 5,088 
1942 25,436 15,556 2,818 6 8,861 
1943 34,845 25,527 967 267 1,000 16,693 
1944 40,246 39,807 - 773 28,180 
1945 20,052 7,544 - - 8,263 

Eastern Front (World War II) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Both the British and the American public have long been told that “we won the war” and D-Day, in particular, has been built up as the decisive moment. The American D-Day Museum has been adopted as the national tribute to the war and Steven Spielberg, the director of Saving Private Ryan and co-producer of Flags of Our Fathers, which is just about to open, seems to have made it a mission to perpetuate Churchill’s myth. 

After talking at Cambridge recently about the preponderance of the eastern front and the scale of the Red Army’s triumph, I was accosted by an angry young British historian. “Don’t you realise that we were pinning down 56 German divisions in France alone,” he said. “Without that the Red Army would have been heavily defeated.” What is less acknowledged is that without the Red Army pulverising 150 divisions, the allies would never have landed.


Proportions, however, are crucial. Since 75%-80% of all German losses were inflicted on the eastern front it follows that the efforts of the western allies accounted for only 20%-25%. Furthermore, since the British Army deployed no more than 28 divisions as compared with the American army’s 99, the British contribution to victory must have been in the region of 5%-6%. Britons who imagine that “we won the war” need to think again. 

How we didn't win the war . . . but the Russians did - Times Online

But what American has ever heard of Operation Bagration? June 1944 signifies Omaha Beach, not the crossing of the Dvina River. Yet the Soviet summer offensive was several times larger than Operation Overlord (the invasion of Normandy), both in the scale of forces engaged and the direct cost to the Germans. 

By the end of summer, the Red army had reached the gates of Warsaw as well as the Carpathian passes commanding the entrance to central Europe. Soviet tanks had caught Army Group Centre in steel pincers and destroyed it. The Germans would lose more than 300,000 men in Belorussia alone. Another huge German army had been encircled and would be annihilated along the Baltic coast. The road to Berlin had been opened

It is thus all the more important to recall that - despite Stalin, the NKVD and the massacre of a generation of Bolshevik leaders - the Red army still retained powerful elements of revolutionary fraternity. In its own eyes, and that of the slaves it freed from Hitler, it was the greatest liberation army in history. Moreover, the Red army of 1944 was still a Soviet army. The generals who led the breakthrough on the Dvina included a Jew (Chernyakovskii), an Armenian (Bagramyan), and a Pole (Rokossovskii). In contrast to the class-divided and racially segregated American and British forces, command in the Red army was an open, if ruthless, ladder of opportunity.

Comment: Saving Private Ivan | World news | The Guardian


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## Udet (Apr 23, 2008)

drgondog said:


> Adrian - your avatar is, as always, intriguing.. Is she demonstrating high buoyancy, biological, flotation devices?
> 
> Does the Bolshevik view point admit the existance of such devices?



Hahahaa...

Something like that...given the current context of things you have surely heard about global warming...i´ve been conducting extensive research and testing of alternative personal flotation devices (APFDs) which might help increasing survability of people living in islands and coastlines when the melting of the polar ice caps causes sea levels to rise in such way their cities and lands will be inundated. A chep accessible solution...8)


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## Lucky13 (Apr 24, 2008)

Doesn't logbooks etc. somtimes get damaged during attacks even if the ship itself get sunk, by fire or water? Has it never happened that a ship has lost OR damaged its paper work and have had to begin fro scratch?


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 28, 2008)

I just watched "Death of the Luftwaffe." It was great! So cool!


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## DauntlessDriver (Apr 28, 2008)

I must say, Dogfights is one of the few programs left that's cool to watch！ 

I have the entire first season on DVD... does anyone know if the second season is out yet?


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## rochie (Apr 28, 2008)

hey les thanks a bunch for the dogfights you tube list on pge 7, i've just spent most of my day trawling through it catching all the episodes i've missed.
much appreciated

karl


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 29, 2008)

You can download episodes from Amazon and Itunes for about $ 2.00. 


I was suprised, but it's true!


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## lesofprimus (Apr 29, 2008)

Karl, ur welcome man...


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## drgondog (Apr 30, 2008)

stasoid said:


> 4 GIAP/VVS-KBF continued operating I-16s until 1943. This I-16 was brought down by a pilot of I./JG 54 in the same area where 4 GIAP/VVS-KBF operated.
> 
> Summary of Axis and Soviet Aircraft production during the war
> 
> ...



I know I can always count on the Guardian and Pravda to have the objective facts and viewpoints. Thanks for the links to the irrefutable 'truth'.


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## renrich (Apr 30, 2008)

It does seem as if the North African campaign, the Invasion of Sicily, the Italian Campaign as well as the BOB, Murmansk convoys, Battle of the Atlantic, etc. are being ignored by our Soviet apologist. Of course there is also no mention of how the brave Soviet leaders were ready to declare war on Japan after the US and UK defeated the Japs. I am an American and actually lived during WW2 and I was always well aware of the Soviet contribution to the defeat of Hitler and am also aware of the invasion of Poland by the USSR after they were attacked by the Nazis. I am also experienced enough to take battlefield claims by the Soviets with a large dose of salt.


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## Njaco (Apr 30, 2008)

Those Poles were really liberated in Katyn Forest and nobody fessed up until 1989. Theres liberation for you.

Oh and what was Stalin's hissy-fit with Churchill and Roosevelt about a second front if the 'liberation' army was all powerful?

Granted, Hitler couldn't be defeated without USSR or any of the Allies for that matter, regardless of the percentage of the claim. But it wasn't a Russian lone gunman.

And don't misconstrue the stopping of the Wehrmacht at Moskow as a great Russian triumph. Without overstretched supply lines and change of objectives, the jack-boots would have been heard stomping all the way to the Pacific.


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## stasoid (May 1, 2008)

*Where are the stats for US Lend Lease aircraft?*

14.000 US Lend Lease aircrafts in addition to 140.000 produced in the USSR? It's 10%. Beter then nothing but it's still only 10%.

_Absent the Brits defeating the LW during the BoB - Germany launches against the USSR much earlier, with totally devastating results for USSR._

Defeating Luftwaffe? Wow!
Germany lost 1900 aircrafts out of 4000, Britain lost 1500 out of 1900. Who defeated whom? 
In 1940 and 1941 Germany produced 18.000 aircrafts.

_The really neat thing about the Overlord op is that all of Europe did not fall under the USSR boot and 'peaceful re-education'_

Another really "neat thing" is that hundreds, even thousands of nazi war criminals escaped justice. Instead of going to jail they were given american citizenship and later put on CIA and NASA's paycheck.

_Are you serious? you consider the USSR a "liberation army'? East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Rumania? Poland? Hungary???? YMBSM. All glorious People's Republics, god fearing, free voting?_

Well, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria were all nazi allies at that time. What did you expect Stalin to do? Soviets just lost 27 mln lives. Right, he created a buffer zone installing puppet goverments in Eastern Europe to protect his country from possible invasions from The West in future. He was an evil but a wise man in some respects.


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## stasoid (May 1, 2008)

renrich said:


> I was always well aware of the Soviet contribution to the defeat of Hitler and am also aware of the invasion of Poland by the USSR after they were attacked by the Nazis.



Invasion of Poland? Without a single shot fired? What's your defenition of invasion? Why didnt Poland fight back?
Answer is simple: those territories of western Ukraine and Belarus had never belonged to Poland. Poland stole them from Russian Empire thanks to revolutionary chaos in Russia in 1917-20, Stalin returned them back and now those lands are parts of Ukraine and Belarus as they used to be for 1000 years. Poland has never claimed them back.


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## stasoid (May 1, 2008)

Njaco said:


> And don't misconstrue the stopping of the Wehrmacht at Moskow as a great Russian triumph. Without overstretched supply lines and change of objectives, the jack-boots would have been heard stomping all the way to the Pacific.



Changing objectives when you're 20 miles away from The Red Square? LOL!

Soviet intelligence in Japan in Fall 1941 repeatedly reported that Japan had no immediate intention to attack USSR. And soon after the Pearl Harbor 20 russian divisions were withdrawn from the Far East and sent to the Eastern Front. Those 20 fresh, well equipped, siberian divisions played decisive role in defeating german armies in the outskirts of Moscow in December 1941, throwing them back 300km away. Nothing else.


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## marshall (May 1, 2008)

stasoid said:


> Invasion of Poland? Without a single shot fired? What's your defenition of invasion? Why didnt Poland fight back?
> Answer is simple: those territories of western Ukraine and Belarus had never belonged to Poland. Poland stole them from Russian Empire thanks to revolutionary chaos in Russia in 1917-20, Stalin returned them back and now those lands are parts of Ukraine and Belarus as they used to be for 1000 years. Poland has never claimed them back.



 Ignorance of some people is just shocking...


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (May 1, 2008)

I agree. 

The Poles didn't want the Russians there. They didn't want liberation. They didn't have a cruel dictator like Saddam Hussein controlling them, until Hitler showed up, and when Stalin took them over he wasn't a whole lot better. They were happy the Russians destroyed the control of Hitler over them, but they would have been much happier if the Russians had left them alone after WWII and didn't establish a Communist State in Poland.


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## stasoid (May 1, 2008)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> The Poles didn't want the Russians there. They didn't want liberation. They didn't have a cruel dictator like Saddam Hussein controlling them, until Hitler showed up, and when Stalin took them over he wasn't a whole lot better. They were happy the Russians destroyed the control of Hitler over them, but they would have been much happier if the Russians had left them alone after WWII and didn't establish a Communist State in Poland.



I dont think Stalin really wanted to establish a Communist State in Poland (extremely religious people, catholic country, close ties with UK, etc...), but in the Cold War reality he had no other choice. For centuries, invaders from the West had been coming through polish territory, on and on again, so Russia fought wars on its own soil with devastating results for its civilian population. last war claimed 27 million lives. So, maybe Stalin though: enough is enough and he did what he did, guaranteeing peace for his people for at least some time. Sounds cinical now, but those were brutal times and he was a brutal dictator.

If Pols didnt want someone to liberate them, they should have fought, like Serbs and other Yugoslavian peoples did, sacrificing almost 2 million lives.


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## drgondog (May 1, 2008)

stasoid said:


> I dont think Stalin really wanted to establish a Communist State in Poland (extremely religious people, catholic country, close ties with UK, etc...), but in the Cold War reality he had no other choice.
> 
> *He specifically agreed to permit free elections in Poland and return sovereignty and self government to the Poles. That was one of many agreements he 'broke'.
> 
> ...



You may recall the Poles uprising in Warsaw, while Uncle Joe held his position and encouraged the Germans to slaughter them.

He 'tolerated' Tito because he was a Communist, not because they 'sacrificed'.

Did you by chance notice any attempts by Austria and West Germany to flee 'en masse' to be part of the great People's Revolution? Or South Korea or Japan or Turkey? When the USSR disintegrated did you see Czechoslovakia or East Germany gleefully embracing a Communistic Government after the blissful years under the boot of the USSR. 

I am sure they remembered the good old days under Soviet control an candidly am mystified over them believing personal rights and freedoms had any place in this world. Might you enlighten us?


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## Udet (May 1, 2008)

People, please do not disturb this post-communist cockatoo that just entered the forum. His postings are fun.


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## drgondog (May 2, 2008)

Udet said:


> People, please do not disturb this post-communist cockatoo that just entered the forum. His postings are fun.



Adrian - as always you cut 'right to the chase'. Give my very best to your sister and invite her to join in the fun!

Bill


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## kool kitty89 (May 2, 2008)

This is the same guy that derailed the tank buster discussion in the same manner and same topic... 


But on topic I saw the PBS "Secrets of The Dead" Guadalcanal episode tonight. Very interesting.
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zitQJr36si0_


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## Screaming Eagle (May 2, 2008)

I just watched that thunderbolt series on youtube recently. Very interesting.


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## timshatz (May 2, 2008)

Anybody heard it there is going to be a season 3? Seems unlikely but...


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## Wayne Little (May 2, 2008)

Just watched the 'Night Fighters' episode....


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## kool kitty89 (May 2, 2008)

It's hard to tell if a new season was postponed by the writers' strike or it was canceled. (or both) The strike would explain the crappy programing (ice rod truckers among others), reality programs filling in w/out writers, at least I hope that's why. (otherwise their programming is really going to hell...)


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## timshatz (May 2, 2008)

"Ice Road Truckers" and "Ax Men", who gives a s---! That ain't history, it's reality TV. Put it on Discovery and give us Dogfights! Preferable something from the BOB or Russian front (just to mix it up a bit).


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## Njaco (May 2, 2008)

or pure dogfighting from North Africa. Hey how about the defense of Malta by a few obsolete bi-planes! This series could go on and on. And I hope it does.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (May 3, 2008)

They could a lot of good stuff on the Russian Front. 

Erich Hartmann, P-39's, Sturmoviks, Stalingrad, ect.


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## kool kitty89 (May 3, 2008)

Or commonwealth pilots in the Pacific.


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## rochie (May 5, 2008)

i saw the P-51 episode yesterday, it puzzled me though would a mustang really survive a 30mm hit from an Me 262 on the wing then still be able to fight like it was shown in this episode


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## drgondog (May 5, 2008)

rochie said:


> i saw the P-51 episode yesterday, it puzzled me though would a mustang really survive a 30mm hit from an Me 262 on the wing then still be able to fight like it was shown in this episode



If the 30mm hit outboard of the guns and missed the spars it should survive one hit.. inboard where the lift distribution and wing loading is higher - a different story

would sure be 'draggy' compared to other wing


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## Freebird (May 5, 2008)

Njaco said:


> or pure dogfighting from North Africa. Hey how about the defense of Malta by a few obsolete bi-planes! This series could go on and on. And I hope it does.




Yes and how did Marmaduke Pattle get so many kills in that Gladiator?


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## Njaco (May 5, 2008)

Agreed. How about showing how the Buffalo did so well in Finland.


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## kool kitty89 (May 5, 2008)

Or a whole overview of the Buffalo. (all things considdered it didn't do too bad in Sinapore either, with almost 1:1 air:air for the commonwealth and more for the Dutch)


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## JoeB (May 7, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> Or a whole overview of the Buffalo. (all things considdered it didn't do too bad in Sinapore either, with almost 1:1 air:air for the commonwealth and more for the Dutch)


I wouldn't expect the History Channel to properly research that, it's one of the whole problems with those kind of shows beyond oral history-type value (by which I mean 'here's how it seemed if you were really there' not 'here's how it *was* if you could look at both sides'), and entertainment.

The Buffalo did way worse than 1:1 v Japanese fighters based on what the Japanese really lost, Brit Dutch or USMC (latter just one combat, at Midway)and were not effective inflicting heavy losses on their escorted bombers either. Allied claims in the chaotic and difficult conditions of '41-42 Pacific were highly overstated. 

I don't know the real situation of Finnish Buffalo claims v real results, but the real results of the Buffalo v the Japanese were quite poor, that's no myth, and a show presenting 'success' based on an inflated claim of 1:1, at this point in time when it really pretty easy to check that and find it's not supportable, would be a farce. Though, it wouldn't shock me if they did, again it's entertainment/oral history and already a number of those episodes show pretty easily discountable claims as facts. I think some examples are covered above.

Joe


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## kool kitty89 (May 7, 2008)

I understand they're "claims" ad are somewhat inflated (and a lot of the kills wouldn't have been against fighters but:

Brewster Buffalo Mk I


> Many official British historical sources blame the loss of Malaya and Singapore largely on the Buffalo's poor performance. However, the picture is not entirely that of an unmitigated disaster, and many Buffalo-equipped units gave a good account of themselves before they were overwhelmed by superior Japanese numbers. Accurate figures on the combat losses of British Buffalos are difficult to come by. Approximately 60 to 70 Buffalos were lost in air combat, 40 were destroyed on the ground, twenty were lost in various non-combat related accidents, four were transferred to the Dutch, and six were evacuated to India. Commonwealth Buffalo squadrons claimed at least 80 kills, and some units may have achieved a 2-to-1 kill ratio.



Brewster 339 in Netherlands East Indies


> The Japanese advance was extremely rapid, and by mid-February 1942, the Japanese had taken all of the Dutch East Indies except Java. On February 26, 1942, the Japanese invasion of Java began, but by this time only a dozen Brewsters were still airworthy in all three surviving ML-KNIL Buffalo squadrons. They still fought on against impossible odds. Their last operational mission was flown on March 7, 1942. Java fell on March 8, and all Dutch forces in the Indies surrendered on March 9.
> 
> The Brewsters were completely outclassed by the Japanese fighters which opposed them. The Model 339C and D were inferior to the Japanese Zero in speed, maneuverability and in climb rate. During three months of combat, 30 Brewsters were lost in air combat, 15 were destroyed on the ground, and a number were lost in accidents. 17 pilots were killed in action. Against these losses, Dutch Brewsters claimed 55 enemy aircraft destroyed, a victory-to-loss ratio of almost two to one.


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## Njaco (May 7, 2008)

But these Dogfight shows aren't really about the individual planes but a situation in which someone overcame odds or such. I think a show on some of the actions of Buffalo pilots getting kills and how they did it in a supposedly inferior craft would be interesting.


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## Soren (May 7, 2008)

Does anyone have the episode of a -51 being hit by the 30mm guns of a Me-262 ? I'd like to see that. Normally a single hit would tear a wing or rear fuselage clean off. Most reasonable explanation would be that the a/c wasn't hit by a HE(M) projectile but an ordinar HE or AP round.

The effect of a 30mm HE(M) round fired from the MK108:


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## drgondog (May 7, 2008)

here are two shots of my father's various flak targets. The P-51B was hit by a 20mm, the P-51D by a 37/40mm.

A wing could be blown off by any of these - depending on a.) where it hit, and b.) how heavily the airframe/wing/tail was loaded stress wise when it was hit.

There excellent examples of B-17s and B-24s being hit by 88mm shells which burst inside the bomber aft of the wing and flew home.

So, you want to make a blanket statement about the 100% attrition of all aircraft hit by a 30mm from an Me 262? 

Proof, please?


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## Soren (May 7, 2008)

Someone seems unable to understand that not all rounds fired were of the HE(M)type. But hey I'm sure the P-51 was magically resistant to a hit which would sever a Spitfire's aft fuselage...


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## drgondog (May 7, 2008)

Soren said:


> Someone seems unable to understand that not all rounds fired were of the HE(M)type. But hey I'm sure the P-51 was magically resistant to a hit which would sever a Spitfire's aft fuselage...



And your proof that all ships hit anywhere by a 30mm HE(M) was destroyed? 

Would you state for the record that you believe a 30mm HE(M) was more destructive than an 88? If not, would you agree that not all 88mm direct hits were fatal to the damaged a/c? If then, could you further conclude that a 30mm HE(M) type might not destroy a Mustang or a Spit or a B-17 or B-24?

Have you ever failed to use 'absolutes' and unequivocal statements when there is a good chance someone will call your hand and ask for proof?

Proof? Soren. Facts. The elixer of debate. 

Nobody is debating the fact that a 30mm HE(M) round was very powerful, but your debate style doesn't carry much weight without proof. What is being debated now is your application of logic and facts behind your comment.


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## comiso90 (May 7, 2008)

Soren said:


> Someone seems unable to understand that not all rounds fired were of the HE(M)type. But hey I'm sure the P-51 was magically resistant to a hit which would sever a Spitfire's aft fuselage...



Isn't it fair to say that the effect of impact fuses would not be the same 100% of the time when you consider closing speeds of the aircraft, angle of impact, trajectory of shell, amount of kinetic energy at impact, stress exerted on aircraft at time of impact.... and a million other factors.

Some shells may explode the nano-second they make contact, others half way through the air frame, and still others on exit or not at all. Each instance would have a different destructive effect.

sometimes big hole, sometimes total destruction.

.


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## kool kitty89 (May 7, 2008)

Not saying it was not an AP or normal HE round (what was the ammo comp used on the 262?) but mine rounds were designed to hold the max amount of filler possible and thus used thin walled steel shells holding up to 85g HE!

Hoever the inherant properties of mine shells meant that they tended to not penetrate much (if at all) before detonating, thus they tended to cause mostly surface damage and the thin shell walls produced much less shrapnel than the thicker walls of a standard HE shell. However, while the surface damage limit may have been true for the 20 mm HE(M)/(XM) with 19-25g HE the 30mm carried 3-4x that amount of HE, so the size of the blast itsself would do a good deal of pennetration and the aircraft's strusture would become shrapnel. However there were also a fair amount of duds. (~25% iirc) But a dud would tend to bounce off (due to the soft nature of the shell, low density, and realatively low velocity), so that's not the case with this P-51.

In the Spitfire's case shown, it looks like the shell exploded inside the fuselage as well.



And somewhat off topic but another usual drawback of the mine shell is that it usually results in a very poor ballistic shape, but I found something interesting here:
Komet weapons: MK 108 cannon






The Type N mine shell, holding ~10% less filler but it's a tracer round as well, and the Ballitic shape apears very good (except for the flat tip for the fuze common to all HE shells) even with some boat tailing, and tracer rounds also tend to have better performance as the tracer gasses reduce the vacuum at the bullet's tail and therefore reduce drag)

Compare to a typical Mine shell:


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## Soren (May 7, 2008)

Comparing fighters and bombers is pure nonesense. A bomber is far more ruggedly built and features much larger fuselage and wing sections. A 30mm HE(M) certainly wouldn't tear the wing off a bomber, and I never even implied that it would. However against a fighter it's an entirely different story, as evidenced by the end result of that test against a Spitfire's aft fuselage. 

The only thing I have ever said is: Normally a hit by 30mm HE(M) projectile was enough to tear off the wing or rear fuselage of a fighter. A bomber is another story. 

But hey since the 88 was brought up, I'm sure a P-51 would take a direct hit from that as-well, heck if a bomber can take it so can a P-51!

________________

KK,

The aerodynamic shape of the MinenGeschoss was good enough for all usable distances, the very weight of the round ensuring good energy retention.


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## kool kitty89 (May 7, 2008)

But the N type HE tracer with 76 g HE looks pretty good, comparable to the shape of standard HE rounds. (and I think it's mostly the tracer limiting the capacity not the shape)

I know the 30mm round had enough weight to retain energy pretty well ( though the velocity was already low for the MK 108 ), I was just interested by the design of the N-type shell.


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## kool kitty89 (May 7, 2008)

And soren Bill was comparing a direct hit from an 88 mm to a fighter hit by a 30 mm.



> There excellent examples of B-17s and B-24s being hit by 88mm shells which burst inside the bomber aft of the wing and flew home.




And the bottom pic of the P-51's tail looks like it could have been a HE(M) if it had detonated near the tip of the fin, the top pic of the 'stang's tail with a hole through the middle does not. (in fact it almost looks small enough to be a 20mm HE(XM) shell hit)


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## kool kitty89 (May 7, 2008)

Njaco said:


> But these Dogfight shows aren't really about the individual planes but a situation in which someone overcame odds or such. I think a show on some of the actions of Buffalo pilots getting kills and how they did it in a supposedly inferior craft would be interesting.



That's what I had in min when I said "about the Buffalo."

Not the plane, but how it was used and what it accomplished.

The same thing could be done with the P-39, though I think the Buffalo is a better example with a more interesting history.


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## Soren (May 7, 2008)

The difference between 1x 30mm Mk103 round, 2x 30mm Mk108 rounds 2x 20mm MG151/20 rounds:






As one can see a 30mm HE(M) round packs allot more wallop than a 20mm round.

Damages caused by 20mm cannon shell:


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## Soren (May 7, 2008)

Here's what a direct hit from an 88 looks like on a B-17 bomber:


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## Soren (May 7, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> But the N type HE tracer with 76 g HE looks pretty good, comparable to the shape of standard HE rounds. (and I think it's mostly the tracer limiting the capacity not the shape)
> 
> I know the 30mm round had enough weight to retain energy pretty well ( though the velocity was already low for the MK 108 ), I was just interested by the design of the N-type shell.



Both shells will retain energy better than any rifle round, despite their flat nose, the high weight and therefore sectional density ensured energy retention was good. However the N type projectile obviously retains energy better than the regular MinenGeschoss, but in combat it would've proven nonessential.

As for the velocity of the MK108 round, well 505 m/s is enough to make sure that the target has zero chance of dodging - German Zertörers used to effectively lob shells at the bombers beyond the effective range of their defensive armament. 

The Mk108 only had one small downside and that was the relatively high deflection needed to hit an enemy in a tight turn.


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## kool kitty89 (May 7, 2008)

I know (the 20mm statement), and the numbers are nice too: 30mm HE(M) ~330 grams with 85 g filler. (76g HE for the type N tracer) compared to 151/20's 20mm HE(M) ~92g with ~18 g HE, or HE(XM) 104 g with 25 g filler.


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## kool kitty89 (May 7, 2008)

I think the Bomber's .50's could reach pretty far out (over 500 m, probably still effective out to 1000m) to a distance where hitting with the 108 would require an expert marksman, but usually gunners waited till they were in closer (in less they had a really good clear shot) as fireing at long range would deplete their limited ammo too fast.


And the deflection and trajectory problem is much more of a problem if trying to use a MK 108 in a dogfight, not impossible, but not easy either. (and probably not outside 300 m)


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## JoeB (May 7, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> I understand they're "claims" ad are somewhat inflated (and a lot of the kills wouldn't have been against fighters but:


Those are claims and are quite a lot inflated, so I don't really see the 'but' or why we'd quote such numbers when easily accessible references give the numbers from both sides.

I added up British/Dutch Buffalo combats in "Bloody Shambles" by Shores et al. as follows:
v. Type 97 Fighter (later 'Nate'): 6 combats, 12.5 Buffaloes downed for 1.33 Type 97's downed (claims are prorated v losses where more than one type on one side was claiming in a given combat)
v. Type 1 Fighter ('Oscar'): 8 combats, 18 Buffaloes, 4 Type 1's
v. Zero: 8 combats, 15.5 Buffaloes, 4 Zero's. This included the only two side documented successful combat for Allied Buffaloes: Jan 18 1942, combined formation of 243 and 488 Sdn Buffaloes jumped 22nd Air Flotilla Zeroes over Singapore and downed 2 for the loss of 1 Buffalo written off on landing.
Type 0 Observation Seaplanes (Pete) acting as fighters shot down 2 Buffaloes w/o loss in one combat.
Fighter-fighter exchange ratio 1:5.25 against the Buffalo.

The Brit/Dutch Buffaloes also downed 5 non-fighters confirmed in Japanese accounts.

This excludes combats where the Japanese side is not reported, but that's only 8 more Buffalo air combat losses to add to the 57 above.
[edited to a add a couple of incidents in vol 2 of Bloody Shambles]
US Buffaloes had one air combat, at Midway: VMF-221 lost 13 F2A's and 2 F4F's for probably 2 Zeroes and 2 Type 97 Carrier Attack Planes ('Kate').

The Buffalo's lack of success in Allied hands was due in part to factors besides the plane itself (but success and failure is virtually never just about the plane); but it was a failure, again in Allied hands.

Joe


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## kool kitty89 (May 8, 2008)

There were no bomber kills with the Dutch/Brit Buffalo?


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## JoeB (May 8, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> There were no bomber kills with the Dutch/Brit Buffalo?


As mentioned, there were 5 kills by Brit and Dutch Buffaloes against non-fighters which are confirmed in Japanese accounts: 2 Type 99 Twin Engine Light Bombers ('Lily'), 2 Type 99 Army Recon Planes ('Sonia'), and 1 Type 100 Hq. Recon Plane ('Dinah') (interesting that Buffaloes could catch a Dinah).

There were a few other claims of non-fighters in combats where the Japanese side isn't known, but not many. Also as mentioned, I've only counted combats for which both sides' accounts are known. I haven't counted Buffalo losses in any other combats, nor their claims in any other combats. It gives the fairest picture I think, and the claims v actual losses in the combats where both sides *are* known show that neither sides' claims were reliable in that theater and time. Moreover the combats where both sides are known are the majority.

In general there are relatively few cases where intercepting fighters actually took a heavy toll of escorted bombers while fighting at a highly unfavorable exchange ratio w/ escorting fighters. If you're going 1:5 against the enemy's fighters, you're unlikely to get anywhere much with his bombers when those enemy fighter are around, probably too busy trying to avoid being shot down. And downings of unescorted bombers, especially small and lightly armed ones like those above, don't really prove much.

Joe


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## smg (May 8, 2008)

Soren said:


> Here's what a direct hit from an 88 looks like on a B-17 bomber:



wow


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## buzzard (May 8, 2008)

Soren said:


> Here's what a direct hit from an 88 looks like on a B-17 bomber:



I know the '17 was a tough bird, but

How about the poor waist-gunner?

JL


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## drgondog (May 8, 2008)

Soren said:


> Comparing fighters and bombers is pure nonesense. A bomber is far more ruggedly built and features much larger fuselage and wing sections. A 30mm HE(M) certainly wouldn't tear the wing off a bomber, and I never even implied that it would.



You are aware that heavy bombers and transports were usually designed to 3g positive limit load and that fighters were designed for ~ 8g? No?

So you are right - no one in their right mind would suggest that a bomber is designed to take higher stresses than a fighter. 

While you are right about the greater size you are wrong about the design stress load capability.

If you will go back to the answer a gave to the original question - I suggested that the ability of a Mustang wing to take a heavy explosive projectile depended on several factors - not the least of which was whether the 30mm hit a heavily stressed (or 'loaded') section of the wing.

Soren, your snout moves into unfamiliar territory - again.. earlier it was aerodynamics and now it's structures. What else do you know nothing about that we can debate?


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## Soren (May 8, 2008)

LoL, get over yourself Bill! You're clueless on this subject and many others as you have so thuroughly demonstrated many times now. (Let me guess now Bill is going to pull up the suction debate, get ready to be sidetracked thread!)

And now Bill is trying suggest that I claimed bombers were designed for higher stress levels in terms of G forces!  This gets crazier by the post!

But hey, lets give Bill a chance to find that exact phrase where I according to him said: B-17's can make 12G turns, a P-51 can only take 8G, oh yes..

Bill apparently doesn't know that the weight an a/c's wings have to carry is multiplied by the amount of G's excerted on the a/c. 

So lets see 4,575 kg times 6.5 equals = 29,734 kg Wow! thats the weight of a B-17!!   Well 29,710 kg times 3 however results in = 89,130 kg ! Hmm... Nearly three times the weight! But hey since the P-51's wing can take up to 8 G's at a weight of 8,000 lbs I'm sure it can withstand the blast of an 88mm round just fine, nevermind that if a B-17 or B-24 was ever hit directly in the fuselage it usually split in two, cause those bombers were so weak anyhow  Heck this one only withstood a fighter tearing straight through it and then flew another 90min to home base where it landed safely after which it broke in two:












Pfff! Thats nothing! A -51 would've maybe just lost a panel or something and thats it, the pilot would probably barely have noticed it  

What Bill also obviously doesn't know (Yep, he obviously really doesn't) is that bombers were DESIGNED BUILT to carry huge loads and at the same time to withstand enemy attacks! The next thing he is clueless about is that when effectiveness against enemy machine gun cannon is a concern bigger is always better! 

But just like I predicted Bill is now trying to suggest that a P-51 can take a direct hit from an 88mm!! Well yes, sure Bill ofcourse it can, it's a P-51 so it can ofcourse take more punishment than a bomber!  I mean if it takes the massive power of a single rifle round to down a P-51 I'm sure a cannon shell would be useless 


Talk about sticking your nose into unknown territory!


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## rochie (May 8, 2008)

hey soren the P-51 30mm hit episode is here the actual hit is about 4 mins in have a look

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAN0tglzris_


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## kool kitty89 (May 8, 2008)

Cool that's new, any more on youtube that haven't been posted. (see a couple pages ago for wat les put up, and I added some)


Oh ther's some here:
YouTube - luke650529's Channel


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## kool kitty89 (May 8, 2008)

Soren you're right, I don't know where Bill was going with that, except weight for weight the P-51 was stronger, but even so strenght in terms of ability to withstand loads is different than the ability to withstand battle damage or heavy shock. 

Some uninformed people for example will assume that since the F4F could take a hell of a lot of damage while the Zero was very fragile (in terms of damage or shock resistance) would mean the Wildcat could take more G's, but in reality the Zero had a quite strong structure for its weight and for this type of loading. (it could probably pull more G's than the Wildcat, and the Ki 43 moreso, but the Zero's frame was not good with aerodynamic loads high speeds though reaching the structural limit well before compressibility at a little over 410 mph)


Though in this case the P-51 does have a fairly tough airframe in terms of construction. (quite a bit tougher than say a spitfire, engine vulnerability aside)


But that first pic of the P-51 Bill posted realy doesn't look like a 30mm hit (even for a normal HE round) but more like a 20mm mine shell hit.

The bottom pic with 1/2 the fin ripped off could have been a 30mm hit near the tip of the fin.

And a wingtip hit from a mine round (that detonated) may not have been a definite kill but it probably wouldn't have left the P-51 in fighting condition.



Again, Soren do you know the mix of ammo that the Me 262 carried?


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## drgondog (May 8, 2008)

Soren said:


> LoL, get over yourself Bill! You're clueless on this subject and many others as you have so thuroughly demonstrated many times now. (Let me guess now Bill is going to pull up the suction debate, get ready to be sidetracked thread!)
> 
> And now Bill is trying suggest that I claimed bombers were designed for higher stress levels in terms of G forces!  This gets crazier by the post!
> 
> ...



I have re-stated what I said.

Ball is in your court.

Your airframe structures design experience and your degree please? 

and explain again how a B-17 which is bomber, and by your definition (as everyone knows) is 'more ruggedly built with larger wingspan' than say an F-105, is more 'rugged'. 

Proceed with your proof Professor and please let everyone know what your academic and airframe industry work experience credentials are for this discussion?


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## drgondog (May 8, 2008)

PS - Soren, I would agree that the wing of the B-17 is stronger than the wing of the P-51 in terms of amount of force that can be applied before failure - but not stronger in context of sustained multiples of Gravity .. and not near as strong as an F-105 either in terms of relative strength or absolute strength.

And the point would be?


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## drgondog (May 8, 2008)

Soren said:


> But just like I predicted Bill is now trying to suggest that a P-51 can take a direct hit from an 88mm!! Well yes, sure Bill ofcourse it can, it's a P-51 so it can ofcourse take more punishment than a bomber!  I mean if it takes the massive power of a single rifle round to down a P-51 I'm sure a cannon shell would be useless
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is that statement anything like your rant?

It's bad enough when you make dumb claims - but compounded when you can't remember (or comprehend) what is written?


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## drgondog (May 8, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> Soren you're right, I don't know where Bill was going with that, except weight for weight the P-51 was stronger, but even so strenght in terms of ability to withstand loads is different than the ability to withstand battle damage or heavy shock.
> 
> *Bill simply said it was possible, depending on location (i.e away from spar, outboard of guns) and strees condition (ie manuever situation with associated loads) to survive a 30mm hit - no more - no less*
> 
> ...



The point of this debate is that Soren sez the wing or fuselage of a fighter would be blown away with only one hit - presumably every time. We disagree.
As usual.


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## Soren (May 8, 2008)

And you say I can't admit when I'm wrong! Lol!


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## Soren (May 8, 2008)

PS: 1.3 * 6.5 = 8.45 G's, the P-51's ultimate load limit at combat weight (9,700 lbs)


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## drgondog (May 8, 2008)

Soren said:


> PS: 1.3 * 6.5 = 8.45 G's, the P-51's ultimate load limit at combat weight (9,700 lbs)



Wrong - as Usual - 6.59 LIMIT LOADat 9700 pounds about what it would run over the channel outbound to Germany - the 51B and P-51D had an 8G LIMIT load at 8,000 pounds gross weight per NAA and P-51 Pilot Handbook. 12G ULTIMATE LOAD at 8,000 pounds per NAA and Gruenhagen pg 119. For the P-51H it was 11G at Ultimate Load.

When do you suppose you will ever know the ratios from Limit to Ultimate? Clue - it is 1.5 not 1.3.

Degree. Industry experience Soren? 

BTW - You never have produced one document supporting your claim that the ultimate Limit for Me 109 (of any variety) limit was "13G" - one of the never ending list of your claims matched by no facts... and of course you never provided the weight for that claim

Still dancing?

degree/work experience in aero and/or airframe structures..

Degree/work experience? Put up or shut up.


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## kool kitty89 (May 8, 2008)

Sorry, bill I missed the 20mm 37/40mm thing.

But one thing to note on the 37mm is that a normal HE 37 mm shell will carry quite a bit less than a 30mm mine shell. The US 37mm (similar in size to the german shells) shell used in the M4 cannon weighed about twice as much as a 30mm mine shell, but carried only 45-48g HE compared to 85 grams of the 30mm. (76g for the tracer)



And looking around, it seems only the mine shell was in common use with the MK 108. Soren any info?

The WWII Fighter Gun Debate: Ammunition


> 30 mm low-velocity (MK 108 )
> Minengeschoß 108 El o. Zerl.
> Only the Minengeschoß was fired by the MK 108, also in versions with day or night tracer. The ammunition was not interchangeable with that of the much more powerful MK 101 and MK 103, hence the addition 108. The letters El probably indicate the presence of Elektron, an incendiary compound, in the projectiles. Surprisingly, self-destruction fuses were not used, although German fighters were operating over the home country at this time in the war.



But obviously a wide range of ammo was designed and produced. (I's imagine the AP wouldn't be the best role for the MK 108 due to the low velocity)
Komet weapons: MK 108 cannon


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## kool kitty89 (May 8, 2008)

And guys please keep it civil, lets not mess up the thread again.

(that's what PM's are for)



But seeing the animation 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAN0tglzris_ (assuming it's accurate) the 30mm hit apears to be a glancing blow, appearing to be a dud. (which is fairly plausible seeing as some figures show that ~1/4 of them were duds iirc) And a 30mm mineround from a MK 108 wouldn't do much damage if it failed to detonate. (being soft and at a fairly low velocity by the time it ht the target, even initial velocity was only ~1.5 mach depending on alt)


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## drgondog (May 8, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> Sorry, bill I missed the 20mm 37/40mm thing.
> 
> *No biggie KK*
> 
> ...



Don't misunderstand this perspective I have.

1.) any 30mm was a devastaing air to air weapon
2.) Highly stressed fighter a/c inherently are tough, big bombers usually tougher
3.) one of anything below 30mm has a lower probability of a one hit kill unless it hits engine, pilot, fuel tank or main spar.
4.) a 30mm has a higher probability but not a 100% sure thing


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## Soren (May 9, 2008)

> Wrong - as Usual



You know what, you're a goddamn prick Bill! You've only proven me wrong twice, both times on VERY minor issues, but then being the prick that you are you not only use that as some sort of evidence in nearly all you're arguments no you also blow it out of proportions by claiming I'm always wrong! Well that's just as ridiculous as your claim that a P-51 is just as rugged as a bomber! 

1.3 or 1.5, when one is relying on memory such figures easily get mixed. 

So 1.5 * 6.5 = 9.75 G is the ultimate load. No protests from here.

Still looking forward to those pics of -51's taking direct hits from 88's and were still flying.. complete and utter bogus!

KK,

In operational service the Mk108 fired primarily HE(M) rounds, so the -51 hit on the wing was very lucky as if it was a HE(M) round it could've only been a glancing hit, which is most understandable seeing that the 262 attacked from straight behind the -51, and so the impact angle would've been close to 90 degrees when hitting the airfoil. At such an angle the MinenGeschoss wouldn't explode simply because the impact trigger didn't come into contact with the wing. Or it could've just been an AP round, who knows..

More on the HE(M);

The MinenGeschoss was designed to first penetrate the skin of an aircraft and then explode, causing maximum damage, but this also meant that at high impact angles, such as when hitting an airfoil directly from behind, it merely just glanced off. The N type seems to have been designed for not only penetrating the skin of an aircraft but also in such a way that if it came into contact with any liquid (say fuel, oil or hydraulic fluid) it would trigger the charge and the round would explode. Imagine that thing going off inside a fuel tank! The combined explosion could easily cut a bomber's wing.


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## kool kitty89 (May 9, 2008)

Guys stop!!! 

The snide comments don't help anyone on this thread, they're best left to PM's or not at all. (Soren you should probably edit out that last one before it causes more trouble)

It doesn't matter who started it, it's escalating so drop it and debate and present your argument in a civil manner. I you'd stop talking past eachother (or not reading the wole reply) you'd realize that you are agreing on many points.

I know I'm not a mod, and I don't have any authority, but please don't mess this up. (and I'd immagine the mods and amdmin are getting kind of fed up)



Bill never said the P-51 could take a direct hit from an 88. He compared a B-17 taking an 88 to a P-51 taking a 30 mm.

And look Bill's pretty much agreeing, a different times you guys keep focusing on separate arguments and missing stuff:


> Don't misunderstand this perspective I have.
> 
> 1.) any 30mm was a devastaing air to air weapon
> 2.) Highly stressed fighter a/c inherently are tough, big bombers usually tougher
> ...


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## kool kitty89 (May 9, 2008)

Also I'd immagine the N type shell's ballistics would be more important for the high velocity MK 103 as at those speeds the efficience difference between the rounds woud be more extreme, and generally a/c using the 103 needed the greater accuracy to get the long range advantage of that gun. In addition to the other advantages of the round. (Nightfighters carring the MK 103 apparantly exclusively used the type N shell with night tracer)


And thanks for the penetration properties of the round. (I think it was the 20mm mine round that was found to lack the desired penetration, though the HE(XM) probably improved that over the lighter HE(M) which also had 7g less HE)


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## kool kitty89 (May 9, 2008)

Njaco said:


> But these Dogfight shows aren't really about the individual planes but a situation in which someone overcame odds or such. I think a show on some of the actions of Buffalo pilots getting kills and how they did it in a supposedly inferior craft would be interesting.



I was inclined to agree with this and that was what I'd meant by overview.

And there are several episodes dedicated to the actions a single airfraft. 

-Thunderbolt
-Mustang
-Hellcat (Zero Killer)


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## drgondog (May 9, 2008)

education, experience..

even with those we make mistakes.

without these - mistakes are frequent and obvious.

education, experience - please?


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## kool kitty89 (May 9, 2008)

Bill why don't you just PM Soren about it? 


Let's get back on topic.


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## Soren (May 9, 2008)

Because Bill likes pissing matches KK.

However like I've said before, I don't enter into pissing matches as its downright childish ridiculous and most importantly proves nothing.


Moving on before this thread gets sidetracked anymore...

Now regarding HE(M) projectiles KK,

The energy retention wether it was fired from the 103 or 108 was still not an issue as the projectile was heavy enough to offset the less efficient form factor of the regular projectile at most combat ranges. However accuracy with the type N projectile would be better by virtue of its more efficient form factor.

As for the effective range of the bombers defensive armament, well it was a good deal shorter than that of a fighters armament as not only did you have to hit a much smaller target, you also had to hit a fast and moving target (Bombers normally fly relatively straight in their formations).


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## kool kitty89 (May 9, 2008)

And they had fairly limited ammo.

I understand the issue with the weight and sectional density Soren, I just meant it kind of wastes the use of a heavy high velocity MK 103 with the poorer shaped round. Not so much the effective range (which would be farther than one could accurately aim in many cases). The more important ting is the better shape, and thys energy retention, would keep a flatter trajectory which therfore allows simpler and more accurate aiming. It also means the rounds get to there targets faster.


And some rounds in the .50 cal range have excellent sectional density, the Russian 12.7 mm round weighing 52 grams. Which is still not very close to the 330 g 30mm mine shell, but is roughly equal to the standard British and German 20mm rounds (~130 g) and better than the 20mm mine shell or the Russian (and some of the Japanese) 20mm rounds and the German 15 mm round.


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## parsifal (May 9, 2008)

Guys, this might be an intersting academic argument, but the chances of a direct hit by ground fire of a B-17 was extremely low. We have all seen the mugshots of huge chunks of B-17s missing, and B-17s being cut in half, but the truth is this was an extremely rare event. thats why people took pictures of them, because they seldom saw such things. In 1944, the average ammunition expenditure to bring down any aircarft using HAA for the germans was a whopping 16000 shels per kill. The majority of those hits were not direct hits, but hits at a distance from the plane. They didnt call them flying fortresses for nothing. It could take a lot of punishment. 

I just dont see the point in arguing to the death (of this thread most likley) over an issue that is essentially peripheral anyway


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## kool kitty89 (May 9, 2008)

That's not what they were arguing about. They were arguing about the effects of the 30mm mine shell (HE(M)) on the P-51, then they went off on a tangent comparing the ruggednes of fighters vs bombers.

Now we seem to be getting somewhat on track again.


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## drgondog (May 10, 2008)

Oh, did I hurt your feelings Soren?

That wasn' my intention. 

Having said that, every time you try to pass youself as an knowledgeable practioner of either Aerodynamics or airframe structures I will thump your beak and remind you to stay away from 'absolutes'. 

You are free to describe me as a 'prick' - i expect that from you.

Stick to facts. or express opinions without contempt for opposing views of your 'infinite' wisdom. You know a lot about some subjects, but aero and structures are not part of your core competency?

Have a good day.

Experience, Education?


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## Kruska (May 10, 2008)

parsifal said:


> Guys, this might be an intersting academic argument, but the chances of a direct hit by ground fire of a B-17 was extremely low. We have all seen the mugshots of huge chunks of B-17s missing, and B-17s being cut in half, but the truth is this was an extremely rare event. thats why people took pictures of them, because they seldom saw such things.



Hello parsifal,

Maybe or certainly my English is not as good as yours, but there seems to be some irrationality in your forwarded statement.
I would state that “if” an 88 shell really managed to land a “direct” hit in its best velocity and angle (no deflection, delayed detonation or off angle) the respective target was a goner, no matter if, B-17 or P-51.

Therefore there would have been no chance to photograph a B-17 that received a so called direct hit, unless pictured in hundreds of parts somewhere on the ground. Means I would doubt that those “chunk sized –missing parts photos” were really direct hits. (Maybe just damn close or ripping through the target without actually detonating). 

So what does the term "direct hit" in English language actually define or describe, that is maybe the question to me.

Using German language I would call a 100% direct hit = Volltreffer = implements target destroyed, or direkter Treffer = direct hit – but does not automatically implement the total destruction of the target.
Sometimes it is just words; sometimes they can have very exact meanings

Regards
Kruska


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## kool kitty89 (May 10, 2008)

A hole roughly the diameter of the fusalage seems pretty close to a direct hit.


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## Kruska (May 10, 2008)

Yes, kool kitty89

It certainly is a direkter Treffer, so again it comes to the question, what word or expression defines the German word Volltreffer in English? or how do you distinguish in English between a direct hit and a hit that causes total destruction?

Sorry I really don’t want to make a language discussion out of this, but since different nationalities are presenting their posts on this forum, sometimes the “wrong” word or term can lead to misinterpretation and as such to heated discussions.

Regards
Kruska


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## Njaco (May 10, 2008)

> That's not what they were arguing about. They were arguing about the effects of the 30mm mine shell (HE(M)) on the P-51, then they went off on a tangent comparing the ruggednes of fighters vs bombers.



Its actually a thread about a TV show.


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## drgondog (May 10, 2008)

Kruska said:


> Yes, kool kitty89
> 
> It certainly is a direkter Treffer, so again it comes to the question, what word or expression defines the German word Volltreffer in English? or how do you distinguish in English between a direct hit and a hit that causes total destruction?
> 
> ...



For this particular 'heated debate' you would have to go back to Rochie's question "Could a Mustang survive a 30mm hit" (as shown in an episode of Dogfight - and theoretically true)

I simply said - "it depends, but possible" and then went on to explain my logic.

As to the B-17 (and other pics of both B-17 and B-24s hit in same general area by 88mm (or bigger - but not smaller at 22-26,000 feet?) I have a theory

Unlike many smaller aircraft designed today, there were more than 4 longerons that could serve as beam caps to take the bending (and torsion)loads created by that big ass tail of a B-17 (or B-24).. but the key ones for level flight conditions would be two remaining, intact, at approximately 4 and 6 o'clock plus the 10 and 2 o'clock longerons/caps plus enough skin attached to those longerons to maintain a shear panel/beam stiffener capability to prevent buckling.. otherwise you can't take out the torsion or compression loads... or be essentially intact from say 12 o'clock to 5 o'clock for the same reasons - and be lucky

It is obvious that both the B-17 and B-24 would be designed with a lot of structure capability at those locations given the cut outs for the Ball Turret and Waist guns.

Aircraft inherently designed for high G's (like a Mustang) usually have two (each) main beams top and bottom plus thicker skins - particularly if flush rivets are used

Some of the surviving ships have a locally buckled condition after landing when the final vertical loads (presumably) from the landing was just too much at the end.


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## Haztoys (May 10, 2008)

If any shell 30mm and or other wise does not hit "bone" (something of substance motor, fuel tank, tail, longrod) it keeps moving ...If you don't hit bone when you shot a person they can keep going..Just do to a round being big has nothing to do with it ... Ground small arms fire downed alot of planes...

And the said P-51 hit by the Me-262 30mm did not hit bone so it hit the wing and out the other side ..I'm sure it happend all the time..At that time in the war who knows what the Me-262 was spitting out the 30mm.. I'm sure the not all exsplosive around went off .. Some were I read a lot more around did not go off then people think...


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## drgondog (May 10, 2008)

Haztoys said:


> If any shell 30mm and or other wise does not hit "bone" (something of substance motor, fuel tank, tail, longrod) it keeps moving ...If you don't hit bone when you shot a person they can keep going..Just do to a round being big has nothing to do with it ... Ground small arms fire downed alot of planes...
> 
> And the said P-51 hit by the Me-262 30mm did not hit bone so it hit the wing and out the other side ..I'm sure it happend all the time..At that time in the war who knows what the Me-262 was spitting out the 30mm.. I'm sure the not all exsplosive around went off .. Some were I read a lot more around did not go off then people think...



a very good analogy


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## Kruska (May 10, 2008)

Haztoys said:


> If any shell 30mm and or other wise does not hit "bone" (something of substance motor, fuel tank, tail, longrod) it keeps moving ...If you don't hit bone when you shot a person they can keep going..Just do to a round being big has nothing to do with it ... Ground small arms fire downed alot of planes...
> 
> And the said P-51 hit by the Me-262 30mm did not hit bone so it hit the wing and out the other side ..I'm sure it happend all the time..At that time in the war who knows what the Me-262 was spitting out the 30mm.. I'm sure the not all exsplosive around went off .. Some were I read a lot more around did not go off then people think...



Full with logical reasons and explanation, nothing to be added on my part

Regards
Kruska


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## kool kitty89 (May 10, 2008)

Bill I don't think that was his question, he wanted to know if there was a term in english describing a hit that results in total distruction/a kill, opposed to a hit that directly impacts on a major portion of the aircrafts structure.

And personally I cant think of a decisive term for that, maybe critical hit, but that doesn't quite fit.


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## kool kitty89 (May 10, 2008)

And Haztoys I don't think it would be very likely for a round to go "through and through" they're (mine shell) designed to deonate just after prnnetrating the skin, and some (type N) have additional fuzing for contact with liquids.
Plus at that angle (assuming the depiction in the animation is correct) a shot hitting the wing at an angle to go straight through isn't likely.

However as I mentioned earlier, and Soren adressed, a glancing blow (somewhat analogous to a grazing bullet) could easily have accured at such an angle and thus hit without activating the fuze and simply bounce off.


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## drgondog (May 10, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> Bill I don't think that was his question, he wanted to know if there was a term in english describing a hit that results in total distruction/a kill, opposed to a hit that directly impacts on a major portion of the aircrafts structure.
> 
> And personally I cant think of a decisive term for that, maybe critical hit, but that doesn't quite fit.



I was reponding to his second comment - since I was a party to the 'heated debate'

I thought you answered his first question well - and it was obvious that the 88mm did in fact make a 'direct hit' fused properly and went off in the middle of the bomber. 

Beyond that it's all about expectations regarding what an 88mm Should do (or 30mm Mk108 He (M)) versus what it Did do.

The 88mm did hit a major portion of the airframe structure - 'bone' in the hunting vernacular but this prey Did run off, to die finally in a boneyard or live as a hanger queen in UK.

Try Obliteration to describe the 'hit' description he was looking for - as contrast with Direct Hit (but not fatal).. or Fatal.. or Mortal


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## drgondog (May 10, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> And Haztoys I don't think it would be very likely for a round to go "through and through" they're (mine shell) designed to deonate just after prnnetrating the skin, and some (type N) have additional fuzing for contact with liquids.
> Plus at that angle (assuming the depiction in the animation is correct) a shot hitting the wing at an angle to go straight through isn't likely.
> 
> *On the other hand hitting .040-.050 thick 2024-T4 isn't like hitting steel plate- it shouldn't glance off - otherwise how would they believe they got hit by a 30mm round?*
> ...



Or the fuze was defective, or some Russian slave labor stuffed it with cotton candy, or it burst short of wing causing surface damage but not fatal - who knows?


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## kool kitty89 (May 11, 2008)

> or some Russian slave labor stuffed it with cotton candy




Yes, all those are good, defective/dud ets or a hit that drtikes very close to parallel to the wing surface and doesn't activate the fuze and bounces off.

But I still don't think the scenario where the shell just punches through the wing is likely.


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## parsifal (May 11, 2008)

Hi Kruska

A direct hit in my opinion is where the shell contacts the aircraft, prior to detonation. the shell may or may not explode.

My point in that regard was perhaps a little unclear. The main point I was trying to make was that direct hits by German AA (heavy) was such a rare event as to be not worth worrying about. I was getting a little worried that the thread was likley to be closed unless we were able to cool things off a little


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## Haztoys (May 11, 2008)

drgondog said:


> Or the fuze was defective, or some Russian slave labor stuffed it with cotton candy, or it burst short of wing causing surface damage but not fatal - who knows?




This is what I was trying to say..I have a friend who did 40+ missons as nav of a B-24 and some time as a P-51 pilot.. He said there seam to be less explosive rounds at the start of the time he was nav then at the closeing of the war..He did not know why...He never was in combat in the P-51..

I'm sure at the time the Me-262 came out and the Germans loosing the war ..It was hard to keep up and keep quality ..And the stuff I've read doing work with slaves was almost a wast of time ...

Don't get all worked up guys and get this lock.. It was war time and any thing could of happened and did happen..

And if the said P-51 pilot the was hit by the 30mm made it back to base...He would know if it he had been hit or not...

There were planes that got hit with one or two small rounds in the right place and went down ...And other planes that got the Sh$!t kicked out of them with bigger rounds and made it home ...How your luck... Or lack of it..


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## Kruska (May 11, 2008)

parsifal said:


> Hi Kruska
> 
> A direct hit in my opinion is where the shell contacts the aircraft, prior to detonation. the shell may or may not explode.
> 
> My point in that regard was perhaps a little unclear. The main point I was trying to make was that direct hits by German AA (heavy) was such a rare event as to be not worth worrying about. I was getting a little worried that the thread was likley to be closed unless we were able to cool things off a little



Hello parsifal,

Don’t worry I am not taking this wrongly, it is just that if in German language you would say; despite a Volltreffer the B-17 made it still home, then this would be very hard to understand since a Volltreffer means “right in Target + detonation on point”, making it highly unlikely for anything to “fly” back that has received a Volltreffer by a 88.

However some pictures clearly indicate a Volltreffer on a B-17, and the bugger still managed to fly home. (Which I would not have thought so before) The 88 shell just as someone said before "didn't hit bone".

So it was my mistake assuming that a “direct hit” and a “Volltreffer” might have a different meaning.

Regards
Kruska


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## Soren (May 11, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> Yes, all those are good, defective/dud ets or a hit that drtikes very close to parallel to the wing surface and doesn't activate the fuze and bounces off.
> 
> But I still don't think the scenario where the shell just punches through the wing is likely.



Agreed.

The Mine shells were thin walled and fit with fuzes which just wouldn't allow them to go directly through both sides of a wing without exploding. What happened if it was the Minen Geschoss is that it simply bounced off and fell earthward, however the shells were fortunately selfdestructive and exploded after they had travelled a certain distance/time. (Wouldn't want such thinks exploding in peoples backyard) 

Now reading about what ammunition types were used operationally it seems that the Me-262's were equipped pretty much exclusively with Mine rounds, so I think we can be fairly certain this was the type which struck Candelaria's wing.

Now as for the effectiveness of the 30mm Mine shell, well it was established that it generally took 5 hits to destroy a bomber, which demonstrates the lethality of the round. Now that coupled with the illustrated effectiveness of the Mine shell, we know a fighter wouldn't survive a hit with detonation from such a round and then fly on, and to think it could not only fly on but also continue to shoot down another two a/c is absurd!

So conclusion must be that the round failed to detonate on impact and the -51 got away with a scare.


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## drgondog (May 11, 2008)

Soren said:


> Agreed.
> 
> The Mine shells were thin walled and fit with fuzes which just wouldn't allow them to go directly through both sides of a wing without exploding. What happened if it was the Minen Geschoss is that it simply bounced off and fell earthward, however the shells were fortunately selfdestructive and exploded after they had travelled a certain distance/time. (Wouldn't want such thinks exploding in peoples backyard)
> 
> ...



That is one conclusion

Education, Experience in Aero/Structures? or is this supposition and speculation?


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## kool kitty89 (May 11, 2008)

Even if a P-51 survived a hit from a 30mm mine shell detonation (wingtip, tail, blew a ~2 ft dia hole through wing or fusalage but held together) it would be in no shape to keep dogfighting, except maybe for a very good pilot.

And for refrence:


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## Kruska (May 12, 2008)

Hello kool kitty89,

And I don’t think that a “good” pilot would take the risk of getting himself entangled or pursue a dogfight with a damaged a/c. 

Regards
Kruska


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## Soren (May 12, 2008)

Exactly Kruska.


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## rochie (May 12, 2008)

kruska thats what i was thinking when i watched the P-51 episode.
maybe the pilot remembered the details in a different order of time from the real events and was realy hit after he shot down the 109's.
it must have been pretty stressfull and was 60 years ago


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## pbfoot (May 12, 2008)

Kruska said:


> Hello kool kitty89,
> 
> And I don’t think that a “good” pilot would take the risk of getting himself entangled or pursue a dogfight with a damaged a/c.
> 
> ...


Depends on the situation and how his dials are reading and how the birds flying, your there to protect the mission


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## kool kitty89 (May 12, 2008)

And the aggression of the pilot. Granted a "smart" pilot would probably get out, but a skilled "hothead" may not. (of course circumstances affect it too)


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## Haztoys (May 12, 2008)

Kruska said:


> Hello kool kitty89,
> 
> And I don’t think that a “good” pilot would take the risk of getting himself entangled or pursue a dogfight with a damaged a/c.
> 
> ...



Wow this is a shity statement ...He was a good pilot ...He got one Me-262 he ether downed it or got it smoking ...Ether way the one Me-262 broke off from the bombers and punted...Then he went off after the other Me-262...He was flying his plane not you and I... If it was hit by a 22 round or a 88 shell ...It did not do dick to his aircraft ...I'm sure the man could see were the 30mm hit on the wing ..You can see the wing on a P-51 from the pilots seat...It did not hurt his aircraft ...So he went back after the Me-262...Hats off to him ..It takes nuts to go after TWO Me-262's in a P-51 ...He did what he was trained to do and keep fighting for the bomber...A damaged plane ...Is well "damaged".. Smoke, leaks, something does not work right ...Time to punt and go home .. But this guy did not feel his plane was damaged... Just because is a German 30mm shell does not mean the plane is destroyed

He was having a lucky day on the 30mm round and the German boys were having a unlucky day ....And yes the 30mm "should" of downed the P-51..And if it had hit bone and explosive round would of gone off it could of taken the wing off the aircraft ...Thats why the Germans used them... But the round did not go off.. He looked over at the damage on his wing ..No leak no smoke all the stuff he could see still working ...And back in to the fight...

I fail to see how he was not a good pilot...???

I do not have a TV and did not see the whole Dogfight show on this.. And YouTube cut the show short... But I'm "thinking" he made it back to base..??

So was has plane damaged or...????????

We all know some planes got the crap shot out of them and made it home .. And one good or lucky round the plane went down...


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## Soren (May 12, 2008)

Hey easy there Haztoys! As I understand it Kruska merely pointed out that a good pilot wouldn't have continued to pick a fight if his aircraft had been damaged, implying Candelaria's a/c hadn't been damaged. He NEVER said that Candelaria continued to fight with a damaged a/c.


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## rochie (May 12, 2008)

saw the desert storm episode was ok but not as interesting as some of the others, i think it was because of kills made at distances of miles with missiles.
still gotta be a good pilot though but not as up close and personal as the pre aam days


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## Haztoys (May 12, 2008)

Soren said:


> Hey easy there Haztoys! As I understand it Kruska merely pointed out that a good pilot wouldn't have continued to pick a fight if his aircraft had been damaged, implying Candelaria's a/c hadn't been damaged. He NEVER said that Candelaria continued to fight with a damaged a/c.



Its all good not up set at all...Sorry if I seem to come off as I was... I'm really enjoying having Kruska around here..Him being German its good to have his point of view...

I would think a hole or three in your plane was not real damage ...All in a days work...I did read his post wrong as in Candelaria "did" have damage.. Sorry on that... 

With all the different people and countries on this forum ...I'm surprised we do not get thing crossed up more then you do ... Sorry


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## Haztoys (May 12, 2008)

So is Dogfights going to have some new stuff out soon ?..I've just ordered some of the back shows...It would be nice to have them do some other points of view..The older I get the more the pro American stand on shows like this get old...We know the American point of view ... Its the other countrys point of view no one knows...And as time goes by we loose the men and there storys...

Great shows ...


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## kool kitty89 (May 12, 2008)

Sorry, (my post could cave come off the wrong way also) I didn't mean to imply that Candelaria was a "hothead" either.

But then again there are situations like this: 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCCLkX_I8rU_


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## Kruska (May 17, 2008)

Hello Haztoys, Soren and kool kitty89,

Sorry I couldn’t get connected to the site for the last 5-6 days, (page was suddenly unknown).
Regarding Candelaria; It was just “my” opinion that a good pilot would not endanger himself knowingly, so maybe the term good caused some “excitement” in regards to everyone’s personal interpretation. 

I am sure that most pilots with kills (on all sides) were indeed hotheads and kind of reckless even towards themselves – but taking unnecessary/uncalculated risks (such as taking a damaged a/c into a fight) shows more of “blunt” skill to me then what I would expect of a seasoned and experienced pilot. 

Regards
Kruska


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## kool kitty89 (May 17, 2008)

I think the whole site's been down for the last 4-5 days.


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## Kruska (May 17, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> I think the whole site's been down for the last 4-5 days.



Hello kool kitty89,

yes looking at the last posts, I think the server was down for a couple of days.

Regards
Kruska


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## davparlr (May 17, 2008)

Wow! I haven't read this too much and I see there is much to absorb. It does seem to be much to do about nothing.

The 30 mm probably did not explode (dud?). I cannot concieve of a P-51 wing surviving a 30 mm blast and certainly not continuing to fight. The damage must have been minor.

The comment about not being a good pilot is highly inappropriate by someone who was not in that cockpit. If I remember correctly, he was defending a bomber strike. A wounded cat will still defend her kittens. There are many stories of soldiers continuing to fight with partial malfunctioning equipment to protect others. And he could have just been an egotistical fighter pilot who could beat anything. Not a rarity and not cause to be called "not good".


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## Kruska (May 17, 2008)

Hello davparlr,

come on this has nothing to do with running away. If it makes sense to someone to “sacrifice” himself, well then that is a personal decision, which might not be based on a rational decision.

What good would it do to engage in a fight, with maybe your wings dropping off before you can even fire a shot? Killing yourself for nothing, instead of getting back to base and take on the enemy some other time with an intact aircraft.

Off course every pilot will estimate and judge the damage on his a/c differently and this is where the answer lies, a good pilot will know if he continues or not, a “hero” or hothead will just go for it and get himself probably killed for nothing (besides a medal and his righteous feeling). 

Regards
Kruska


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## pbfoot (May 17, 2008)

Kruska said:


> Hello davparlr,
> 
> come on this has nothing to do with running away. If it makes sense to someone to “sacrifice” himself, well then that is a personal decision, which might not be based on a rational decision.
> 
> ...


Thats why they wear parachutes


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## Soren (May 17, 2008)

Candelaria's -51 was obviously not damaged at all, the 30mm shell just bouncing off the wing. If the 30mm HE(M) projectile had detonated upon hitting the wing it would've either ripped it clean off or caused so much damage that the a/c would've been unable to fly afterwards.

In short: Candelaria saw that his wing was undamaged, with no holes in it, and that the a/c still responded as it always had, and so he decided to go protect the bombers. Nothing hotheaded about that at all.


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## kool kitty89 (May 17, 2008)

But if you bail out over enemy teritory you'd almost definitely be captured.


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## Soren (May 17, 2008)

Yes, and that could have fatal consequences, esp. seeing that the Allies were bombing the civilian population to smithereens. I've heard of several Allied pilots being lynched by angry mobs before the German military could get to them. 

The German military ofcourse tried their absolute best to capture shot down Allied pilots, hoping they could get valuable information out of them, but unfortunately sometimes angry civilians got there first.


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## pbfoot (May 17, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> But if you bail out over enemy teritory you'd almost definitely be captured.


gotta mind like a steel trap there buddy.
Look at this way your a 20yr old kid driving a 2000hp hot rod , you are invincible you have no idea what hit you . the a/c is handling well there is no visible damage of consequence( only visually see about 20% of the aircraft ) all the gauges are ok its running smooth you got fuel and ammo . and your gonna run away cause you heard a bang from what you don't know


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## kool kitty89 (May 17, 2008)

I just meant limping home is the better option. Of course you have to realize there's a problem though.
Or at least limping back to friendly territiory before bailing.



But were're way off topic now, and I think the side discussion has been answered anyway.


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## Chocks away! (May 17, 2008)

I found this interesting:

In the Candelaria episode, he describes a Bf-109 that was painted yellow from nose to windscreen.

Now this wouldn't be strange in 1940-1941, but the action took place in April 1945. 

Could this marking be a means of identification for the younger pilots to be able to recognize their leader?


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## Freebird (May 18, 2008)

Erich said:


> well I am not for supporting this bogus outfit but I received an email from a good German friend and ex-pilot of the LW. His story covering the Rammkommando Elbe (false name actually) will be aired on Dogfights I believe on the History Channel July 13, 07 in the USA. Sorry not sure when the episode will be covered elsewhere in Europe or ....... ? In any case he has been assured that the History Channel writers are not going to add nor subtract from his story and service record during the war for this part. there may even be some coverage on the Sturmgruppen, happy thought indeed ....
> 
> I gave the show a 3 out of 10 with 10 being best
> 
> Erich



I agree it's annoying when they muck up the facts or dumb it down for the general public, but in any event it sure beats Oprah American idol and the other [email protected] that is on the tube these days....


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## Kruska (May 18, 2008)

Hello to all Candelarians, 

Sorry Guys, partially it is my mistake, I started on this thread after seeing the damaged P-51 on post 176 by drgondog. I mistakenly thought that the discussion was about this a/c. Still thinking about this picture and reflecting onto kool kitty89’s post 239 were he even mentions: “it would be in no shape to keep dogfighting” I forwarded my statement in regards to a “good” pilot.

And pbfoot, sorry to say: Parachutes are the last means to save a pilots live, and not to comfort/encourage him to undertake suicidal, heroic or blunt actions.
Does the CAF teach its pilots to perform flight maneuvers regardless of an a/c condition, but to rely firmly on Martin Baker and a Parachute?

So IMHO a pilot who would get himself into a dogfight with a P-51 as pictured on post 176 or its condition being as described on post 239, would be a “stupid” pilot 

As I said IMHO

Regards
Kruska


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## Lucky13 (May 18, 2008)

Watching the Kamikaze episode of Dogfights.....bl**dy h*ll  War is hell, and Kamikaze must be the 10 level of the same....

Year Date Ship 
*1944* 
Oct. 24 Sonoma (ATO-12) (ocean tug) 
Oct. 24 LCI(L)-1065 (landing craft, infantry (large)) 
Oct. 25 St. Lo (CVE-63) (escort carrier) 
Nov. 1 Abner Read (DD-526) (destroyer) 
Nov. 27 SC-744 (submarine chaser) 
Dec. 5 LSM-20 (landing ship, medium) 
Dec. 7 Mahan (DD-364) (destroyer) 
Dec. 7 LSM-318 (landing ship, medium) 
Dec. 7 Ward (APD-16) (high-speed transport) 
Dec. 10 William S. Ladd (Liberty cargo ship) 
Dec. 10 PT-323 (motor torpedo boat) 
Dec. 11 Reid (DD-369) (destroyer) 
Dec. 15 LST-472 (landing ship, tank) 
Dec. 15 LST-738 (landing ship, tank) 
Dec. 18 PT-300 (motor torpedo boat) 
Dec. 21 LST-460 (landing ship, tank) 
Dec. 21 LST-749 (landing ship, tank) 
Dec. 28 John Burke (Liberty cargo ship) 
Dec. 30 Porcupine (IX-126) (auxiliary tanker) 

*1945 *
Jan. 4 Ommaney Bay (CVE-79) (escort carrier) 
Jan. 5 Lewis L. Dyche (Liberty cargo ship) 
Jan. 6 Long (DMS-12) (high-speed minesweeper) 
Feb. 21 Bismark Sea (CVE-21) (escort carrier) 
Apr. 6 Bush (DD-529) (destroyer) 
Apr. 6 Colhoun (DD-801) (destroyer) 
Apr. 6 Emmons (DMS-22) (high-speed minesweeper) 
Apr. 6 Hobbs Victory (cargo ship) 
Apr. 6 Logan Victory (cargo ship) 
Apr. 7 LST-447 (landing ship, tank) 
Apr. 12 Mannert L. Abele (DD-733) (destroyer) 
Apr. 12 LCS(L)(3)-33 (landing craft, support (large) (Mk. III)) 
Apr. 16 Pringle (DD-477) (destroyer) 
Apr. 22 Swallow (AM-65) (minesweeper) 
Apr. 22 LCS(L)(3)-15 (landing craft, support (large) (Mk. III)) 
Apr. 27 Canada Victory (cargo ship) 
May 3 Little (DD-803) (destroyer) 
May 3 LSM(R)-195 (landing ship, medium (rocket)) 
May 4 Morrison (DD-560) (destroyer) 
May 4 Luce (DD-522) (destroyer) 
May 4 LSM(R)-190 (landing ship, medium (rocket)) 
May 4 LSM(R)-194 (landing ship, medium (rocket)) 
May 25 Bates (APD-47) (high-speed transport) 
May 25 LSM-135 (landing ship, medium) 
May 28 Drexler (DD-741) (destroyer) 
June 10 William D. Porter (DD-579) (destroyer) 
June 16 Twiggs (DD-591) (destroyer) 
June 21 LSM-59 (landing ship, medium) 
June 21 Barry (APD-29) (high-speed transport) 
July 29 Callaghan (DD-792) (destroyer)


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## drgondog (May 18, 2008)

Kruska said:


> Hello to all Candelarians,
> 
> Sorry Guys, partially it is my mistake, I started on this thread after seeing the damaged P-51 on post 176 by drgondog. I mistakenly thought that the discussion was about this a/c. Still thinking about this picture and reflecting onto kool kitty89’s post 239 were he even mentions: “it would be in no shape to keep dogfighting” I forwarded my statement in regards to a “good” pilot.
> 
> ...



Lol Kruska - the pilot for both of those a/c were my father and both instances were airfield flak - the first pretty obviously 20mm from high deflection. The second was at low altitude also while strafing near Munich - a long way from home. Still not sure what the round was but likely 37 or 40 mm. I don't recall mention of any 30mm flak.

He was not looking for an air battle on the second scenario as he also lost hydraulics, left main gear was damaged and tail wheel were gone. This a/c was his fourth and last Belly Landing at Steeple Morden - and yes that airplane was repaired and flew combat again.


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## drgondog (May 18, 2008)

Soren said:


> Yes, and that could have fatal consequences, esp. seeing that the Allies were bombing the civilian population to smithereens. I've heard of several Allied pilots being lynched by angry mobs before the German military could get to them.
> 
> The German military ofcourse tried their absolute best to capture shot down Allied pilots, hoping they could get valuable information out of them, but unfortunately sometimes angry civilians got there first.



Sometimes German military got there first. 

Lt Bill Cullerton, 357FS/355FG was shot down by flak near Ansbach in April, 1945. He was immediately captured and surrendered his .45. The German officer briefly commented to him "for you the war is over and shot him in the stomach and left him to die.

Thanks to a German Catholic Priest Bill Cullerton not only survived but is the last 355th ace still alive.


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## pbfoot (May 18, 2008)

And sometimes they ended up in concentration camps ...my Dads friend and his crew along with others USAAFRAF RCAF spent several months in one of those luxury spas


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## Kruska (May 18, 2008)

And German Airborne officers who were given the word of honor by British or Commonwealth officers found their wounded and left behind comrades slaughtered upon returning as victors during Crete. And US soldiers shoot Wehrmacht soldiers who had surrendered. And German soldiers torched civilians barricaded/looked into churches, and the Russians …………….

Where is this thread wandering to??? 

Regards
Kruska


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## Kruska (May 18, 2008)

drgondog said:


> Lol Kruska - the pilot for both of those a/c were my father and both instances were airfield flak - the first pretty obviously 20mm from high deflection. The second was at low altitude also while strafing near Munich - a long way from home. Still not sure what the round was but likely 37 or 40 mm. I don't recall mention of any 30mm flak.
> 
> He was not looking for an air battle on the second scenario as he also lost hydraulics, left main gear was damaged and tail wheel were gone. This a/c was his fourth and last Belly Landing at Steeple Morden - and yes that airplane was repaired and flew combat again.



Well your father was or is a smart pilot 

Regards
Kruska


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## Freebird (May 18, 2008)

Lucky13 said:


> Watching the Kamikaze episode of Dogfights.....bl**dy h*ll  War is hell, and Kamikaze must be the 10 level of the same....



Wasn't the carrier USS Intrepid also lost to kamikazes?


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## rochie (May 18, 2008)

saw kamikaze today as well  
uss laffey what a ship, what a crew


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## Soren (May 18, 2008)

Kruska said:


> And German Airborne officers who were given the word of honor by British or Commonwealth officers found their wounded and left behind comrades slaughtered upon returning as victors during Crete. And US soldiers shoot Wehrmacht soldiers who had surrendered. And German soldiers torched civilians barricaded/looked into churches, and the Russians …………….
> 
> Where is this thread wandering to???
> 
> ...




Well Kruska some people just love to pick a fight when'ever the opportunity arises. Just ignore it.

All sides commited war crimes during WW2, that's the reality.

The German military had special POW camps, so did the Americans, British, Soviets Japanese, and I'm sure none of them were anything close to luxury resorts. 

No side during the war was "evil" as many like us to believe (Some were unknowningly fighting for the wrong cause, but that's another story), the far majority of soldiers from each side just fought for their families and home, that's it.

Anyway the point is that the German military tried their best to get hold of shot down Allied pilots and vice versa, however sometimes angry mobs got there first (Quite a few captured German pilots were lynched or shot as-well).

All sides had their bad guys, however one must keep in mind that these represented the extreme minority, even in the Waffen SS. This is the very reason behind the forming of special shooting squads, these consisted of the few men cold blooded enough to carry out the cruel orders from men such as Himmler. These men weren't well liked by the rest of the army who litterally saw them as evil individuals.

But again thankfully 99% were just like us normal people; completely unlike those evil executioners who formed the dreaded shooting squads.

German soldiers treating the wounds of a captured Soviet soldier:


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## buzzard (May 18, 2008)

Freebird,

The Intrepid was damaged by 4 kamikazes (3 separate incidents) and had earlier been struck by an air-launched torpedo. She had a very eventful career, and the last time I saw her in NYC, she looked great  (I think she has been refurbished since I was aboard her)

JL


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## Haztoys (May 18, 2008)

rochie said:


> saw kamikaze today as well
> uss laffey what a ship, what a crew



 ...I never knew the kamikaze groups were so large ...50 planes  

And...

History is jacked around by the winners... So to say it was all one side is nuts ..Come on guys ...


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## davparlr (May 18, 2008)

Soren said:


> Well Kruska some people just love to pick a fight when'ever the opportunity arises. Just ignore it.
> 
> All sides commited war crimes during WW2, that's the reality.
> 
> ...



There is nothing civilized about warfare. It reduces people to basic emotions. It would be very hard for me to be chivalrous to a shot down pilot knowing he had probably just dropped bombs on my family or shot down a friend. This occured on all fronts. However, some atrocities are just caused by meanness at shown by the Bataan death march. War is hell and to try to make it into a civilized affair is often fool hardy.


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## davparlr (May 18, 2008)

Kruska said:


> Hello davparlr,
> 
> 
> Off course every pilot will estimate and judge the damage on his a/c differently and this is where the answer lies, a good pilot will know if he continues or not, a “hero” or hothead will just go for it and get himself probably killed for nothing (besides a medal and his righteous feeling).
> ...



Apparently, he made a "good" decision.


----------



## Soren (May 18, 2008)

davparlr said:


> There is nothing civilized about warfare. It reduces people to basic emotions. It would be very hard for me to be chivalrous to a shot down pilot knowing he had probably just dropped bombs on my family or shot down a friend. This occured on all fronts. However, some atrocities are just caused by meanness at shown by the Bataan death march. War is hell and to try to make it into a civilized affair is often fool hardy.



Agreed, that's what I was trying to say as-well.


----------



## drgondog (May 18, 2008)

Soren said:


> Agreed, that's what I was trying to say as-well.



Soren - you have thrown insults in my directions on so many threads.

You have posed as alternatively an expert in aero and structures and denigrated my own background.

Every time you post I will ask you to post the credentials as either an academic, or cite your experience in the airframe industry to match or exceed my own.

I have asked you on at least five different threads to cite the background you chose sufficient to curse me and insult my knowledge.

You have avoided each challenge and continue to slide on the subject.

Again, what are the academic credits you have achieved and what aerospace industry experience do you claim?

warm regards,

Bill


----------



## drgondog (May 18, 2008)

davparlr said:


> There is nothing civilized about warfare. It reduces people to basic emotions. It would be very hard for me to be chivalrous to a shot down pilot knowing he had probably just dropped bombs on my family or shot down a friend. This occured on all fronts. However, some atrocities are just caused by meanness at shown by the Bataan death march. War is hell and to try to make it into a civilized affair is often fool hardy.



Dave - that about sums it up for WWII vets - both sides..


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## davparlr (May 19, 2008)

drgondog said:


> Lol Kruska - the pilot for both of those a/c were my father and both instances were airfield flak - the first pretty obviously 20mm from high deflection. The second was at low altitude also while strafing near Munich - a long way from home. Still not sure what the round was but likely 37 or 40 mm. I don't recall mention of any 30mm flak.
> 
> He was not looking for an air battle on the second scenario as he also lost hydraulics, left main gear was damaged and tail wheel were gone. This a/c was his fourth and last Belly Landing at Steeple Morden - and yes that airplane was repaired and flew combat again.



What an honor to know someone, especially you dad, who participated in such history. My hat is off to all of you who have gone in harms way to fight for what you believe in, whether it is WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf, Afghanistan, or Iraq. I served my duty during the Vietnam era, but it was on a cargo plane. The biggest threat I faced was flying in a plane with me as pilot.


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## drgondog (May 19, 2008)

davparlr said:


> What an honor to know someone, especially you dad, who participated in such history. My hat is off to all of you who have gone in harms way to fight for what you believe in, whether it is WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf, Afghanistan, or Iraq. I served my duty during the Vietnam era, but it was on a cargo plane. The biggest threat I faced was flying in a plane with me as pilot.



Dave - I just returned from the 355th Reunion at Davis Monthan hosted by the 355th CO and all the pilots and airmen. It was the mother of all reunions.

When I have all the photos in hand, including many wives and daughters in the A-10 simulators beating up Taliban north of Kandahar I will start posting them. The latest 'gen' simulators are extremely impressive.

The reason I bring it it up is that for the first time the Red River Rats, including Colonels Thorsness and Billy Sparks and John Piowaty and so many F-105/RB-66/A-7 vets from Viet Nam, joined up with the WWII and Iraqi Freedom and current warriors serving in Afghanistan and Iraq... as well as the ground crews, officers and airmen who served in peace and wartime.

It was an incredible experience seeing the warriors (ALL that served both air and ground) of this great combat unit come together in one place.

Another unique aspect of the reunion is that the visiting RAF Wing of EuroFighters attended Friday Night Roll Call and Dinner so we had a great chance to 'talk shop' about their new bird versus F-22.

As to the Hog - I have a new favorite airplane. The firepower demo at Gila Range 3, where the strafing runs were about 100 yards from the tower was awesome. Pretty much should wear earplugs when that muzzle braked beast rips off 100 round bursts.

The entire unit is Sierra Hotel - 

That is my oblique way of thanking You for your service


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## HJERIA (May 22, 2008)

Hi there, I would appreciate If you can help me finding the Falkland Island Chapters
Thanx...

HJ


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## ju87 (May 25, 2008)

dogfights goes on dvd june 24 2008. I'm going to buy the second series as well.

ju87


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## Udet (Jun 9, 2008)

This will be a hell of an unconstructive posting, but what the hell...

Just watched a few minutes of these History Channel productions...holy cow...its better than Dumbo, Snow White, Bambi and Cinderella put together.

Yeah, exactly what i did expect from the History Channel: USAAF veterans with a huge smile on their faces lecturing the audience on how sportive and blithe, virtually free of danger, their missions over occuppied Europe were.

Luftwaffe pilots...easier to outwit, outmanouver and -of course- shoot down than attempting to take the milk bottle away from the mouth of a baby.

Some highlights: A P-47 got badly hit by a Bf 109, a wing catching fire, but the P-47 (in flames) manages to shoot down the Bf 109 that hit him (yeah sure)...another old USAAF guy (big smile on his face) describing how he saw a "poor" German pilot trapped in his cockpit -while still flying-, and not just that, he recalled the poor German by saying "his hands were trembling" -Luftwaffe boys were such a bunch p*ussies- and of course...the German pilot died.

So German fighters are extremely easy to shot down, while the props of the uberUSAAF just dont go down when badly hit...even in flames they can still shot down enemy planes. Reminds me of those stories of Bodenplatter, of P-51´s "shooting down" German planes while still runinng through the runway with the undercarriage still down!!!

Oh well, know i perhaps know where Rambo had its origins. 


Had i watched these programs 6 or 7 years ago, during my early/mid teens, i would have been big time seriously pissed off; now i only laugh.


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## drgondog (Jun 9, 2008)

Udet said:


> This will be a hell of an unconstructive posting, but what the hell...
> 
> Just watched a few minutes of these History Channel productions...holy cow...its better than Dumbo, Snow White, Bambi and Cinderella put together.
> 
> ...



Adrian - I would far rather talk about the bio-floatation devices on your avatars .. now THOSE are worth spending a little energy on!


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## kool kitty89 (Jun 9, 2008)

What episode(s) were you watching?

I've only seen ~3/4 of the episodes (those on youtube), but I've rarely seen anything close to that.
(plenty of inaccuracies, but mostly technical, or modeling the CGI scenario wrong)


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## Freebird (Jun 10, 2008)

Udet said:


> This will be a hell of an unconstructive posting, but what the hell...
> 
> Just watched a few minutes of these History Channel productions...holy cow...its better than Dumbo, Snow White, Bambi and Cinderella put together.
> 
> Had i watched these programs 6 or 7 years ago, during my early/mid teens, i would have been big time seriously pissed off; now i only laugh.




Not surprising that they are US biased, made in the USA....


It would be interesting if some German or French or Russian made "dogfight" type programs were available as well.


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## Grampa (Jun 10, 2008)

There should really be some journalistic review from other pilots who flew in other contries of WW2. Not only Brittan, German or Japanese, but Russian, Italian, French, Belgian, Finnland and more other. It whould be weary interesting for me tho hear a Japanese or german pilot from thers point of wiew of theres experience and how hey countermeasured the treat from allied forces or what untold stories from Russian pilots has to tell, all those pilots must have a mutch more of epic stories in aircombat than the American.


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## kool kitty89 (Jun 10, 2008)

The bias, and inaccuracies granted, I haven't seen the kind of things Adrian is describing specifically. Inless he's grossly exaggerating it sounds like they're being disrespectful to the other combatants, mocking them. (which I haven't seen on the episodes I've seen)
The closest I can remember seeing is a mustang pilot referring to the 109's as "easy meat" but even then he said something like "up until this fight we called the 109's easy meat" corrected by his dogfight being depicted, in which he's outperformed by a 109.


And there's at least one episode specifically on the German side, with sme German veterans interviewed. The "Luftwaffe's Deadliest Mission" episode -on the ramming attacks- 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QyELSlHVAA_

And in "the first dogfighters" (WWI) the first example is quoted from Udet's diary. 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TStRqIsIOh8_


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## kool kitty89 (Jun 10, 2008)

Here's the clip I was talking about: 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlfOWZHEGNk_

From: 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H282DVlZVQA_


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## Udet (Jun 10, 2008)

Kool Kitty:

The episode i was referring to -of the burning Jug that allegedly shot down the Bf 109 that set it on fire- is about Bodenplatte. Even if the word was not mentioned in the minutes i watched, the narrator mentions "January 1st, 1945, over Belgium", the dogfights occurring over a snow covered landscape. Such date and area should mean Bodenplatte.

And no, i am not grossly exaggerating anything...its pure allied superhighway living.

Aha! Isn´t it sexy, cute and pretty that when a Luftwaffe vet is finally presented in one of those episodes, the one they decided to bring forward is one that belonged to that thing known as Sonderkommando Elbe? If presented, a Luftwaffe veteran should sound pathetic and almost begging for mercy.

I am sure that theres still a number of Luftwaffe veterans with a mean battle record out there that of course will never be presented in the series. 


Bill...you know, you are the coolest guy on earth and i mean it... That was a formidable way to tell me and everybody else that my previous post sucked big time huh?  

I am definitely sending you the best damn looking bottle of red wine i can buy over here.8)


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## drgondog (Jun 10, 2008)

Udet said:


> Kool Kitty:
> 
> The episode i was referring to -of the burning Jug that allegedly shot down the Bf 109 that set it on fire- is about Bodenplatte. Even if the word was not mentioned in the minutes i watched, the narrator mentions "January 1st, 1945, over Belgium", the dogfights occurring over a snow covered landscape. Such date and area should mean Bodenplatte.
> 
> ...



Adrian - actually I wasn't telling you to go run off and play while the big boys suck on a scotch..

I agree a lot of the points. I have sat around in rooms listening to fighter pilots of all sides for nearly 60 years now (the previous three I wasn't listening}

All, to a man greatly respected the guy he was trying to kill (so that he may live), most thought, individually, that He was the best fighter pilot in the room but acknowledged his buddies and foes were 'pretty good' - and every one had at least one or two good stories about the time they nearly 'bought it'..from the 'other guy'

What they were all mostly saying is that "I fought a tough war against the best and brightest the other team had to throw at me, that many of my friends didn't get laid after the game, and I'm glad to be alive"

Through Art Fielder, Bud Fortier, Bill Lyons and several others engaged with not only Dog Fights but also Military Channel - they tried to donate my services as a pre-screen "consultant" to help cut out the crap - but didn't hear anything back from them..

On the other hand Chateau Lafitte Rothchild 57 would taste pretty good, Kid..

Grin


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## kool kitty89 (Jun 10, 2008)

That would be


> season 2 episode 16. _Death of the Luftwaffe _(3/7/08): The Luftwaffe's last great offensive, called Operation Bodenplatte, occurred on January 1, 1945. Bob Brulle, Sanford K. Moats, Alden Rigby, and Richard Creamer were American pilots of the 352d Fighter Group whose airbase, known as Y-29, was attacked by fighters. After this day, the Luftwaffe was shattered as an effective fighting force.




Haven't seen that one...


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## Soren (Jun 10, 2008)

freebird said:


> Not surprising that they are US biased, made in the USA....
> 
> 
> It would be interesting if some German or French or Russian made "dogfight" type programs were available as well.



Fully agreed freebird.


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## davparlr (Jun 15, 2008)

I believe this is the story told on Dogfights as related by Wikipedia. This should be easily verified.

Y-29
One notable failed attack was on the airstrip at Asch. The leader of the 487th squadron, 352nd Fighter Group, Lt. Colonel John Meyer, anticipated German activity and had a flight of twelve P-51s about to take off on a combat patrol when the attack began. They took off under fire, and with the help of eight P-47s of the 366th (already in the air), the 487th shot down 23 German fighters out of 61 attackers. Several pilots made 'Ace' status that day; two had four confirmed kills apiece. No P-51s were lost, two were damaged, and one P-51 was damaged on the ground. The 336th Fighter Group lost 3 P-47s shot down[17], two of the pilots were uninjured, the third, 2./Lt Brunetti, was killed by a Bf 109[5]

The unit was awarded the Distinguished Unit Citation, the only one awarded to a fighter group in Northern Europe.[18] The 366th was credited with eight kills, and anti-aircraft guns with seven more, though some double-counting is likely. Luftwaffe records indicate JG 11 lost 28 fighters. Four German pilots (two were wounded) made it back to German-held territory, while four were captured, the remaining twenty were killed[19]

Of the German pilots killed that day was Günther Specht, a 34 victory ace. Pilot Officer Dave Johnson had claimed he destroyed a Bf 109 over Y-29 and that the Messerschmitt had "belly landed" not far from the field. After being shot down himself, Johnson then drove over to the wreck. The Bf 109 was still intact, but the pilot was dead. Johnson claimed that the dead pilot's Identification Card named him as a Lieutenant Colonel (Oberst) Specht. The claim has been disproven by German records that indicate Specht flew Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Wknr. 205033, and that he was ranked as a Major. Johnson's actual victim that day was Oberleutnant August Engel[20].


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## KrazyKraut (Jun 17, 2008)

I just can't stand watching these, the dramatic music and the equally dramatic narrator just get on my nerves after about 5 minutes.

I hate "infotainment".


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## Soren (Jun 21, 2008)

> Luftwaffe records indicate JG 11 lost 28 fighters.



Where is this from ??


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## Kruska (Jun 21, 2008)

Hello Soren,

Did a little research, but the incident seems to be only described by the below source. Sofar I did not find any other besides Wiki..

The Wartime Memories Project - Y29 Asch

Missing In Action - JG 11

This list actually only accounts for 6 pilots from JG 11 killed on that day; however I wouldn’t know if this list is reliable or complete.

The Legend of Y-29 : Gathering of Eagles

gives a good account of Y29 and "nice" aircraft paintings.

Regards
Kruska


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## Soren (Jun 21, 2008)

That sounds a lot more reasonable. 23 German a/c shot down for no losses is pure fantasy.


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## drgondog (Jun 21, 2008)

Kruska said:


> Hello Soren,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kruska - that list is all about MIA, not KIA/WIA or POW or Evade.. for example, Rall was GruppenKomandeur of II/JG11 when he was shot down on 12 May by Joe Powers and WIA - but not on that list.

I have had a really tough time finding sources other than the usual group of Prien, etc with fairly good lists based on a lot of contacts - but LW records are virtually nil from Fall 1944 - forward... and almost non-existant on a/c damaged or written off, say after a belly landing.


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## Juha (Jun 21, 2008)

Soren
"23 German a/c shot down for no losses is pure fantasy."


JG 11 lost 26 KIA, MIA and PoW plus two a/c from which pilots survived unhurt. Source Manrho's and Pütz's Bodenplatte, most thorough and the best book on the subject.

Juha


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## drgondog (Jun 21, 2008)

Soren said:


> That sounds a lot more reasonable. 23 German a/c shot down for no losses is pure fantasy.



Fantasies can be strange.

There were more than one or two examples of that kind of lopsided battle between 8th FC and LW. The much discussed 26 November mission was a 26-0 day for the 355th engaging JG1, JG6 and JG301. Here are a few more that I picked out.

357Fg only lost 3 on the 54+ destroyed day on 14 January,1945 - the 20th bagged 20 for no losses on the same day and the 55th also bagged 20 for no losses (air) and one to flak.

the 354th FG was attacked on the deck on 23 March, 1945 and scored 20 for no losses

352nd bagged 23 for no losses on 1 January, 1945

364th bagged 25 for loss of 1 on 31 December, 1944

357th destroyed 31 for loss of 2 on 24 December, 1944

56th destroyed 36 for loss of 3 on 23 December, 1944

357th destroyed 22 for loss of 1 on December 5, 1944

339th destroyed 29 for loss of 2 on November 26, 1944

355th destroyed 26 for no losses on 26 Nov

361st destroyed 22 for no losses on 26 Nov

352nd destroyed 21 for no losses and 339th destroyed 20 for no losses - air, three to flak- on 21 Nov

352nd destroyed 42 for two losses on 2 November..On the same day the 20th scored 28-0 and the 55th did 18-1

Note - in non of these engagements did the attacking 8th AF fighters 'greatly' outnumber the LW...in most cases they were out numbered in the engagement area.

We also know the awards were probably overstated and the skill of the LW pilots had greatly diminished from the first six months of 1944

I've tried to cite just the days that approached or exceeded 20 awards in a day for a specific group.. but here are some earlier days running up to September, 1944.

4th 18-1 on 16 August, 1943

56FG 22-0 on November 26, 1943 and 18-0 on December 11, 1943 and 16-0 on Januray 20, 1944 and 27-3 on March 8

The 357th scored 19-0 on 6 March but half of those were Me 110's

The 56th scored 24-1 on 15 March 1944

The 355th scored 18-0 on 16 March, 1944

The 357th scored 27-2 on 11 April, 1944

The 4th scored 18-0 on 22 April, 1944

The 352nd scored 25-1 on 8 May, 1944

The 357th scored 23-3 on 27 May

The 357th scored 17-0 on 30 may

The 357th scored 22-0 on 29 June

The 56th scored 21-1 on July 4

The 55th scored 19-0 on July but 7 were Me 410s, and 25-1 on 11 September

The 357th scored 26-1 on 18 September the 25 for loss of 5 the next day - all on the deck

The 479th scored 28-0 on 26 September - then 13-0 the next day.


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## Juha (Jun 22, 2008)

A quick look in Manrho's et al book shows that JG 11 managed to shoot down one P-47 from 366 FG and one other was so badly damaged that it was forced to belly-land on Asch. One other P-47 and one P-51 were also substantially damaged but both managed to land on Asch
According to the book 2./Lt. Dofel J. Brunetti from 366 FS/358 FG was shot down during the combat with III/JG 53 and became PoW.
Juha


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## ponsford (Jun 22, 2008)

Soren said:


> 23 German a/c shot down for no losses is pure fantasy.



JG 11 losses during Bodenplatte from Prein and Rodeike - Jagdeschwader 1 und 11:


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## Kruska (Jun 22, 2008)

Well if I recall my uncle’s situation reports from mid 44 to the end of the war, I find these kill/loss claims by the USAAF quite reasonable.

According to his estimation only about 2-3 Luftwaffe pilots with a 3-4 year history were matched by about 50-70children just arriving from flying school or having served less then 2 month and 5-10 pilots with more then 1 year experience. Almost half of those accompanying missions went already missing on the first day. Sometimes losses were so high that even after 2-3 weeks more than 70% of the aircrafts and pilots were lost.

The squadrons remained without action for several weeks until new aircrafts and children arrived partially with their new machines. What worsened the situation according to him was the fact that those pilots who had managed to survive the past 4-8 month usually had engine troubles or reported sick, making way for these hothead kids wanting to save the fatherland and blindly believed in German superiority that had been taught to them in school for the previous 10 years and wasn’t corrected at the flight schools.

Regards
Kruska


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## Erich (Jun 22, 2008)

someone should look into the 14 Janaur 45 mission for the LW it was terrible 

the operation is being translated right now by a friend for a French magazine in the near future. it was a horror story and the losses were to be worse than ever for the LW after Bodenplatte. Kruska is so very right during late44 but definately 45 what were the future pilots of the LW Schulen going to do ? they had to get out in the a/c and practice manuevers and tactics but how could they possibly do this during daylight hours and so close to their airfields with being pickep up by Allied escorts dropping down on them..........well after the terrible bombing raids and the Fighters had gone back to escort returning bombers, but of course tis did not happen each and every time


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## Soren (Jun 22, 2008)

Well I thought we were refering to one action, not the totals for an entire day. There's no doubt that by late 44 to 45 most LW pilots were young untrained hotheads, standing little chance against the well trained experienced Allied pilots.

Like Erich pointed out, the new pilots barely got room to learn to fly without getting shot down in the process.


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## drgondog (Jun 22, 2008)

Soren said:


> Well I thought we were refering to one action, not the totals for an entire day. There's no doubt that by late 44 to 45 most LW pilots were young untrained hotheads, standing little chance against the well trained experienced Allied pilots.
> 
> Like Erich pointed out, the new pilots barely got room to learn to fly without getting shot down in the process.



You are right as is Kruska.. but for the award/losses I just threw up the 'loss' side of the 8th AF ledger is very accurate - the difference of course is when a US pilot went down in Germany, he truly was a 'loss' even if he escaped or became POW. But there were quite a few 10-15 score, 1-3 loss battles between 8th AF and LW from July, 1943 forward when the skills were still high in the LW.

The Awards are reductions from claims but seem to be substantiated in the 80-90% range, particularly when a bellied in 109 was counted as a kill - not knowing that it might be repaired and go on the LW books as Damaged.

Having said this Soren, all of the above tallies are one unit 8/9th AF against one or more (usually more than one) LW Gruppes in the same space on one mission.

I also remember one of the conversations with Galland at the Aces Tucson reunion some 30 years ago - and the topic was my relatively low time in the 51 and he exclaimed "I would have only dreamed of a student pilot with your experience in 1945" - which was a shock to me at the time.


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## ponsford (Jun 22, 2008)

Erich said:


> someone should look into the 14 Janaur 45 mission for the LW it was terrible



From Girbig:






357th FG claimed 56½ in their battle of January 14 1945 for the loss of 3 pilots and aircraft. JG 300 and 301 admitted 69 casualties stemming from this battle. Aircraft lost where pilots crash landed or bailed successfully without injury are, as usual, not listed. The 20th FG may have got some kills in this fight too.

Couple of interesting links:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/357-mission-summary-14jan45.pdf
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/357-unit-history-jan45.pdf


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## Soren (Jun 22, 2008)

The LW achieved quite a high Kill/loss ratio against the Allies in 43 though, despite the introduction of the P-51B. The reason for this was in part that the engagements were at that point mostly at medium alts and not at 25-28kft, but also because the German pilot training program had at that point not been drastically shortened as it would be in 44.


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## pbfoot (Jun 22, 2008)

Soren said:


> The LW achieved quite a high Kill/loss ratio against the Allies in 43 though, despite the introduction of the P-51B. The reason for this was in part that the engagements were at that point mostly at medium alts and not at 25-28kft, but also because the German pilot training program had at that point not been drastically shortened as it would be in 44.


Also because the LW picked and chose when to fight


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## drgondog (Jun 22, 2008)

Soren said:


> The LW achieved quite a high Kill/loss ratio against the Allies in 43 though, despite the introduction of the P-51B. The reason for this was in part that the engagements were at that point mostly at medium alts and not at 25-28kft, but also because the German pilot training program had at that point not been drastically shortened as it would be in 44.



Soren - the LW should have scored very well from mid to late 1943 - but in general did not - because of the orders imposed on rules of engagement with fighters.

The P-38's in general took the highest losses until the Normandy Campaign where the LW was able to catch 8th and 9th AF fighters (particularly P-47s) on the deck in CAS.

What did you have in mind re" quite highkill/loss ratios?


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## Erich (Jun 23, 2008)

in part to Bill's answer in 43 till wars end the LW in it's air capacity still did not have effective workings with it's own Flak ground defensive force, there was still too much competition and this occurred time and again over the larger German cities esepcially at night when the Lw night fighters had to fly through their own AA to attack the heavies


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## drgondog (Jun 23, 2008)

BTW Soren - there are numerous examples of superior ratios of victories to losses air to air over USAAF fighters ranging from North Afrika and MTO to ETO in the 1943 period.. I certainly not implying otherwise.

I did do some study on the subject and believe the highest number of fighter losses from one Group was 14 P-38's (one 9th AF, one 15th) and some of those were from flak.

And huge ratios of LW fighter to 8th AF/RAF bombers until summer of 1944.

The two worst days for USAAF 8th AF in 1942 and 1943

26 Sep 1942 4th FG, Spit V's, escort.

1-11 in which 4 shot down in air, 2 lost to flak and 5 running out of fuel.


13 Nov and 29 Nov, 55th FG, P-38's, escort

7-7 all air, and 2-6 all air

For 1944, the following represent the highest single day losses for 8th AF

11 Feb, 20th FG, P-38's, escort

2-8, 7 air one flak

6 June, 4th FG, Mustangs, caught on deck

0-7 all air.

18 August, 4th FG, Mustangs, caught on the deck

7-9 all air (Worst Mustang loss - air to air)

10 June, 78th FG, P-47s, caught on the deck

7-10 (worst air to air loss for P-47s) 

12 June, 353rd FG, P-47s, caught on the deck

14-8 all air (second worst loss - p-47s)

4 March, 363rd FG/9th AF, Mustangs

0-11 all weather over N.Sea (worst Mustang Loss in ETO)


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## Udet (Jun 23, 2008)

...


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## Erich (Jun 23, 2008)

Whoa Udet you've got the book and the authors all wrong. Ron is deceased and John knows quite abit about Allied/LW coverage; his next venture is with A. U. on completing the book covering JG 6.

lets face reality here, 01.01.45 was a death trap for the LW in ALL respects there was absolutely nothing good that came from it, no-one on this board or any other forum can argue to affirm that it helped the LW. The casualties for the LW were terrible as the authors admit, if anything the LW was not prepared at all for this mission the only guys that got it half right were the German crews operating Ju 88G-1 and G-6's and when they were shot down the Kommandeurs of the S/E in some cases got lost, and you are incorrect to assume that most LW records are lost, they are covered quite well in the Prien and privately published books on the units such as JG 4 and 26.................it was a disaster


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## Soren (Jun 24, 2008)

> Soren - the LW should have scored very well from mid to late 1943 - but in general did not - because of the orders imposed on rules of engagement with fighters.



Rules ? What rules ?


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## drgondog (Jun 24, 2008)

Soren said:


> Rules ? What rules ?



Avoid the fighters. 

Only JG2 and JG26 were within Fighter range of all of the 8th AF, 9th AF and RAF for inbound bombers. LuftFlotte Reich was built up at the outer ring of P-47 range and attacked the bombers with bot s/e t/e day fighters and t/e night fighters as the escorts turned back.

Goering expressly 'forbade' the LW to go after the fighters - effectively neutering an aggressive LW when the USAAF fighter pilots were new and inexperienced.

In my opinion it was a very stupid decision - many of the those same LW pilots that didn't get much initial combat experience as replacements versus USAAF or RAF fighters were later crucified when the Mustangs went all the way.


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## Erich (Jun 24, 2008)

Bill

do not forget JG's 1 and 11, the four were the upper crust of the Reich defense in 1943


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## Soren (Jun 24, 2008)

Bill,

You mean avoid the fighters and concentrate on the bombers I would presume ? This I am well aware of, and it hurt the LW esp. in the beginning of 44, while in the end it didn't matter as much as they had to go right after their attack because of fuel shortages.

However there was good merit to the decision as knocking down a bomber was a far more costly loss to the Allies than a fighter, and it also meant one less large load of bombs dropped on German cities production plants.


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## drgondog (Jun 24, 2008)

Erich said:


> Bill
> 
> do not forget JG's 1 and 11, the four were the upper crust of the Reich defense in 1943



I didn't forget them E - But I recall they were based inside Germany on the NW and W shoulder of Germany as part of Luftflotte Reich


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## drgondog (Jun 24, 2008)

Soren said:


> Bill,
> 
> You mean avoid the fighters and concentrate on the bombers I would presume ? This I am well aware of, and it hurt the LW esp. in the beginning of 44, while in the end it didn't matter as much as they had to go right after their attack because of fuel shortages.
> 
> However there was good merit to the decision as knocking down a bomber was a far more costly loss to the Allies than a fighter, and it also meant one less large load of bombs dropped on German cities production plants.



Bombers after January were important but also as 'bait'. The LW lost the initiative, then control by not being aggressive about control of the airspace. 

The outcome would not have been much different, but they lost control of the air sooner in my opinion.


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## Erich (Jun 24, 2008)

Bill 

yes but parts of JG 11 were based out of Denmark like at Husum, a member, really a friend of a friend of the family served in JG 11 and shot down 10 US heavies, he followed of all things a Fort on it's way back over the north Sea in July of 43 and was shot down


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## drgondog (Jun 25, 2008)

Erich said:


> Bill
> 
> yes but parts of JG 11 were based out of Denmark like at Husum, a member, really a friend of a friend of the family served in JG 11 and shot down 10 US heavies, he followed of all things a Fort on it's way back over the north Sea in July of 43 and was shot down



Erich - which units were still at Husum in April, 1945? Dad got all of his ground scores there on April 13, including a 190D that had just landed (not very sporting)..but he didn't shoot the pilot who was last seen diving into a ditch.

Hopefully he made it through the next couple of weeks.

Roger on the distinction, as Husum and Schleswig are definitey not Germany..


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## davparlr (Jun 25, 2008)

There is a new show on Sunday nights called "Showdown: Air Combat". It is similar but uses real aircraft to illustrate technical features and computer graphics. I suspect the real aircraft are from Chino. Next Sunday is F4F vs. Zero over Guadalcanal.

The techinical stuff is pretty interesting, sitting in the cockpit of the aircrafts, showing how the guns are cocked on the Zero, etc.


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## Erich (Jun 25, 2008)

Bill

I am going to have to dig for that, many of the LW gruppen were being stationed far north even into Denmark and surrendering even in Norway by wars end.

E ~


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## drgondog (Jun 25, 2008)

Erich said:


> Bill
> 
> I am going to have to dig for that, many of the LW gruppen were being stationed far north even into Denmark and surrendering even in Norway by wars end.
> 
> E ~



You have higher priorities.. when you stumble on it let me know but don't waste cycles 

BTW I got a complete list of the aircraft and pilots and units from Joerg on April 24 plus a German translation of the battle from one of the sources he uses.


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## pbfoot (Jun 25, 2008)

davparlr said:


> There is a new show on Sunday nights called "Showdown: Air Combat". It is similar but uses real aircraft to illustrate technical features and computer graphics. I suspect the real aircraft are from Chino. Next Sunday is F4F vs. Zero over Guadalcanal.
> 
> The techinical stuff is pretty interesting, sitting in the cockpit of the aircrafts, showing how the guns are cocked on the Zero, etc.


Does anyone know if it is done by a produced or filmed by Japanese . The show sure has a crappy selection of the top 10 aces 6 american


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## JugBR (Jun 26, 2008)

i would like to see some stuff from the russian front too, and some specifc programs about the luftwaffe aces. dogfights and HC are fine, but a bit nationalist sometimes...


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## Soren (Jun 26, 2008)

drgondog said:


> Bombers after January were important but also as 'bait'. The LW lost the initiative, then control by not being aggressive about control of the airspace.
> 
> The outcome would not have been much different, but they lost control of the air sooner in my opinion.



Hmmm.. perhaps, IMO it might actually have shortened it a little.

If German was to have any hope of winning or atleast stalling the entire war from June 44 it would require that Hitler allowed the Me-262's the role of fighter interceptors for which they were designed and built. Furthermore production of Me-262's should've been prioritized, as should work on jet engines. 

Hitler also wasted a huge amount of money on projects which were completely ridiculous, one of them being the MAUS. The money spend on this project alone could've, if directed towards the development of jet engines, meant Jumo 004D equipped Me-262's mid 44. If that had happened the Allied bombers couldn't feel safe from the very moment they took off from England.


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## JugBR (Jun 26, 2008)

Soren said:


> Hitler also wasted a huge amount of money on projects which were completely ridiculous



I believe that his most ridiculous project was the invasion of russia, the guy wanted to be greater than napoleon, eventually falling in the same hole !


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## Soren (Jun 26, 2008)

Invading Russia was by no means a ridiculous decision, however declaring war on the US before having even half completed his quests in the east was a VERY big mistake, and what undoubtedly cost him the war.


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## JugBR (Jun 26, 2008)

Soren said:


> Invading Russia was by no means a ridiculous decision, however declaring war on the US before having even half completed his quests in the east was a VERY big mistake, and what undoubtedly cost him the war.



i belive after invaded russia, declaring war against usa was redundant lollll

hitler put almost all of his chips on these front, i believe afrika korps should have only thwo divisions or something like that. the great effort was to reach moscow quick as possible. 

freaky hitler, was in paris but didnt learned nothing with napoleon. fall in the same old russian trick, the "wasted lands" tatics. isnt that true ?

the invasion of normandy opens a new front, liberates the western countries wich was a great deal, because otherwise they could be part of soviet conquests, like poland, the balkans and east germany. stalinism, gulags, repression, etc...

thanx god he declared war against usa lollll


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## Soren (Jun 26, 2008)

No JugBR, the Soviet Union would've fallen had the US not stepped in, there's no doubt about it. The western front took up much needed material and manpower.

As for the tactic you're talking about, it is called the 'scorched earth' tactic, and it did work to some extend but it wasn't this which hurt the Germans the most, that was the harsh winter they had to endure without winterclothes (Again a stupid decision by Hitler to withhold much needed winterclothes and send ammo instead), and the shortage of antifreeze which meant the fuel in their tanks froze up. Furthermore the deprivation of manpower material to the west was equally hurtful.


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## JugBR (Jun 26, 2008)

yes, in portuguese is called "terra devastada" so i translated it to english. 

how damaged was the luftwaffe and the wehrmarch after russia failure ?


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## Soren (Jun 26, 2008)

Failure ?

The Russian VVS was litterally being slaughtered in air right untill the end of WW2, the reason being that they were flying at low alt, in inferior a/c and against the most experienced German pilots in the LW. It wasn't the eastern front which proved esp. challenging for the LW (despite the bad weather ofcourse) it was the west during 1944 where they had to go up high to both fight off hundreds of bombers and then have to deal with escorting fighters as-well that they were having a really hard time.


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## JugBR (Jun 27, 2008)

yeah thats true soren, the score of the best german pilots always is something like 200 rusians + 20 american/english. the germans are the pilots with largest number of kills, mostly of those kills was russian planes ! 

but russians have a large number of german kills also, piloting migs and yaks, mostly airacobras. btw the airacobra is a true legend for the russians. 

should be the weather conditions of russian front also a barrier for the luftwaffe ?

if you dont mind to translate some brazilian portuguese thats a nice site about luftwaffe, i think you should like to see:

Ases


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## Haztoys (Jun 27, 2008)

Soren said:


> No JugBR, the Soviet Union would've fallen had the US not stepped in, there's no doubt about it. The western front took up much needed material and manpower.



I think your wrong on this ...They would of come back in time ..They would of moved east as they did ..Got all there ducks in a row..And came back...The German were way to spread out ..The Germans did not have anuff men or weapons and never should have tried to take the amount of land they tried to take ..One of the tactics of the Russians is to fall back into the next line of troops and get the enemy strung out ... They have so much land they can afford to loose it ...I two front war is a no no for a small country like Germany.. Countrys like the US and Russia can do it ..More man power and weapons ..To start a war with no natural resources and think you can raid the countrys you take over is a bad move ...It did not work with the Japanese or Germans..

Don't kid your self Soren ..The Russians drug them east until the Germans ran out of steam ...There's no way in hell the Germans would of beat the Russians .. Maybe the Germans would of won some land short time ...But not won the war agains the Russians ..After the Germans ez run of western Europe ..They were thinking that no one could stop them.. And why would they ..But were fools to think no one would ever stop them ..


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## Soren (Jun 27, 2008)

The only one kidding oneself here is you Hazytoys. You're totally disregarding the amount of men material assigned to fighting the western allies and ho far the Germans actually came even without it. The mere addition of winterclothes would've secured Stalingrad, preventing some 300,000 men dying of cold.

The USSR would've fallen had it not been for the huge amount of men material needed on the western front, there's no doubt about it. 

As noted had the German troops in Stalingrad merely had winterclothes then the city would've fallen, from which point on the German would have a strong foothold in the USSR from which to combat the remaining Soviet forces. And with the taking of Stalingrad the caucasus region was soon to follow, fueling the German army for the rest of the way through the USSR.

Stalin knew this, hence him being only a day away from negotiating truce terms with Hitler, being sure he would soon lose the city and the war with it.



> The Germans did not have anuff men or weapons and never should have tried to take the amount of land they tried to take



Because of the western front.


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## Haztoys (Jun 27, 2008)

Soren said:


> The only one kidding oneself here is you Hazytoys. You're totally disregarding the amount of men material assigned to fighting the western allies and ho far the Germans actually came even without it. The mere addition of winterclothes would've secured Stalingrad, preventing some 300,000 men dying of cold.
> 
> The USSR would've fallen had it not been for the huge amount of men material needed on the western front, there's no doubt about it.
> 
> ...



Its one thing to sucker punch someone ...And its something else for the other guy to see it coming.. So he can defend him self..

Mother Russia has all the tools to win a war .. She would of negotiated a truce then geared up and push the Germans back to Germany..Taking over a country never works out ..Don't kid your self ..In the end the Germans would of lost ..They did not have the man power to do what they did ..Winter cloth or not .. They could of won ether the west front or the east ..But not both.. 

Luck sucker punch ..Is how I see it.. They did that a time or three in Europe two.. Not putting the Germans fighting machine down at all..They were the best in the world at the time .. But Soren's your the one kiding your self thinking they had the man power to keep what the took..

As the US is finding out .. They may have won some land for a time .. The Russians did not need help..The help shorten the war sure.. The Germans would of lost in the end ..

And Sorens.. Why did the german higher ups not get the cloths to the troops ..Offten wondered about that..I know there ago was that this was going to take six months ..But at some point they could see that a change in plans needed to be done...???


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## JugBR (Jun 27, 2008)

besides that discussion, i believe both you guys should agree with me, that battles like kursk and staligrade was ones of the main battles of the war. and germany starts to fall in russia, berore the d-day.


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## Haztoys (Jun 27, 2008)

JugBR said:


> besides that discussion, i believe both you guys should agree with me, that battles like kursk and staligrade was ones of the main battles of the war. and germany starts to fall in russia, berore the d-day.



Yes they were ..Are that point the Russians were all geared up and ready to go...Not sitting on there back side thinking the Germans would not attack..I "think" Stalins pack with Germany was so he could have time to clean out his own house

And "I" feel if the Germans would of just whated untill the Allied attacked on D-Day ..And used all there troops at D-Day ..the Allies would of never gottin off the beach...And the Allies would of gave up and a truce would of come ...I think alot of people do not understand ..D-Day for the Allies realy did not go as planned.. The Germans had the Allies covered..Just not anuff cover to go around.. 

Then maybe the eastern front would of been a whole new game ...

Hows it go "Clean up one mess before you start another"


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## Soren (Jun 27, 2008)

Hazytoys I relly don't get your posts as you're basically saying two things at once.

What I'm saying is that hadn't it been for the western front depriving the Germans of much needed manpower material then they would've taken the USSR. 

What exactly is your position ?


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## Udet (Jun 28, 2008)

...


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## Haztoys (Jun 28, 2008)

Udet said:


> Soren his position is rather simple: the guy is one of those lifeforms chanting the same allied Disneylandic mantra suggesting that if had not been because of USA involvement in the ETO, the bolshevik army would have "steam-rolled" its way deep into Western Europe, reaching the Channel -one of the several allied "turn ons" here-. Does not surprise me that these wimps feel hot and mean to suggest the bolsheviks could have reached Lisbon. It makes one wonder that USA absent, could the reds have occupied the Azores and the Canarias?
> 
> These people live in a ridiculous land of fantasy. The fact they keep repeating the same crap over and over again will not turn their mantras into reality. They dream with the fact that either way, sooner or later, the reds win.
> 
> At some moment of the war, the bolshevik nation had one foot suspended over the abyss. No USA in the ETO, no bolshevik victory. Simple.



 .... ..What ever


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## parsifal (Jun 28, 2008)

Just a few observations

Pilot quality:

By late '44, the average German German Pilot was receiving something like less than 100 hours flying time, compared to the average of well over 350 in the US. Moreover the average flight experience in the ETO for the US was over 500 hours at the front. This is one of the main reasons for the very lopsided losses against the LW at this time. It was not so much about the numbers.....the numbers of fighters on each side at the beginning of 1944, and then at the end of 1944, was not that different. LW was still able to put up something like 1900 fighters in late 1944.However the overall kill ratios were heavily lopsided against the LW by late '44. They were just being shot out the sky by that stage. There is no other way of putting it.

Now, as to the role of the Russians, and that of the Americans or the British for that matter, they were all elements in the crucible of victory. Each part was needed to defeat Germany. Knock out one, an an element leading to victory is lost, with unknown consequences

There are several books that I know of that challenge the one-sidedness of the air war in the east. German losses at Kursk were not light, and operational rates always fairly low throughout the whole east front campaign from mid-43 onward. It went up and down, but from '43 on, the general trend was down. And Soviet tactics were such that killing lots of Germans was not necessary...basically swamp a section of a front, punch your hole in the German lone and pour through. 5000 a/c concentrated against a sector of the front, where you might encounter 200-300 defenders, those 200-300 are going to have virtually no effect. Overall the LW might boast 2-3000 a/c for the entire front, but of these, only half can fly, and because the Germans dont have the initiative any more, must be strung out over the entire east front


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## Haztoys (Jun 28, 2008)

Soren ...You really think that the Germans could of taken all of Russia as vast as it is..???..Even if they had the western front won.. ?..I can see France or Poland its not that big EZer to control the whole country...Lots of land east of Stalingrad for the Russian's to regroup...And come back at the Germans..

No...


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## Soren (Jun 28, 2008)

Parsifal,

You should ask Erich what really happened in the air over the eastern front. The VVS got their asses handed to them right till the end, the LW was mauling the VSS.


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## Soren (Jun 28, 2008)

Haztoys said:


> Soren ...You really think that the Germans could of taken all of Russia as vast as it is..???..Even if they had the western front won.. ?..I can see France or Poland its not that big EZer to control the whole country...Lots of land east of Stalingrad for the Russian's to regroup...And come back at the Germans..
> 
> No...



No I'm afraid I have to disagree.


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## JugBR (Jun 28, 2008)

Udet said:


> Soren his position is rather simple: the guy is one of those lifeforms chanting the same allied Disneylandic mantra suggesting that if had not been because of USA involvement in the ETO, the bolshevik army would have "steam-rolled" its way deep into Western Europe, reaching the Channel -one of the several allied "turn ons" here-. Does not surprise me that these wimps feel hot and mean to suggest the bolsheviks could have reached Lisbon. It makes one wonder that USA absent, could the reds have occupied the Azores and the Canarias?
> 
> These people live in a ridiculous land of fantasy. The fact they keep repeating the same crap over and over again will not turn their mantras into reality. They dream with the fact that either way, sooner or later, the reds win.
> 
> At some moment of the war, the bolshevik nation had one foot suspended over the abyss. No USA in the ETO, no bolshevik victory. Simple.



about 20 milion sovietic military and civilians died in the german invasion.

soviet union was the only country that was invaded by the wehrmarch and fight back until the wehrmarch get out from their territory.

the numbers of operation barbarossa:

107 infantry divisions 
19 panzer divisions, 
18 motorized divisions
one cavalry division 

3.350 tanks
7,200 artillery pieces
2,770 aircraft
3.000.000 soldiers

70% of total german strenght(205 divisions) was mobilized to this operation

775.000 casualties, 1/4 of the force, including deads woundeds and missing

speeches:



Adolf_Hitler said:


> The war against the Soviets could not be conducted
> so cavalier. This fight is of ideologies and racial differences
> and should be conducted with unprecedented brutality, merciless and unrelenting





Churchill said:


> Anyone who fights against Nazism will have our help





Antoine-Henri_Jomini said:


> Russia is a country which is easy to get into, but very difficult to get out of





Yossif_Stalin said:


> There´s no place for crying babies and caowards. Our army and our people´s cant fearing this fight


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## Haztoys (Jun 28, 2008)

Soren said:


> No I'm afraid I have to disagree.



Your feelings and opinions are noted..


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## parsifal (Jun 28, 2008)

Im sure that Erich will put his viewpoint forward quite soon.


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## Njaco (Jun 29, 2008)

One point I believe you're forgetting Soren is timing. If Hitler hadn't been trying to save Mussolini's butt in the spring of '41, Barbarossa would have been earlier and those divisions in Greece and quite possibly Africa would have been freed up. That being said, Moskow might have fallen and so may have Stalingrad but Stalin would have worked out counter measures, equipment would have been modernized from the obsolete stuff they were using and Germany eventually would have lost. The western front did have forces tied up but before D-day they were mostly RnR for eastern front troops.


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## JugBR (Jun 29, 2008)

Njaco said:


> One point I believe you're forgetting Soren is timing. If Hitler hadn't been trying to save Mussolini's butt in the spring of '41, Barbarossa would have been earlier and those divisions in Greece and quite possibly Africa would have been freed up. That being said, Moskow might have fallen and so may have Stalingrad but Stalin would have worked out counter measures, equipment would have been modernized from the obsolete stuff they were using and Germany eventually would have lost. The western front did have forces tied up but before D-day they were mostly RnR for eastern front troops.



barbarossa wasnt just about invade a country, but also exterminate one race and one ideology.

the diferences between the eastern and the western front are huge. maybe, following tho logic(???) of adolf hitler, would be more acceptable if they "hadn't been trying to save Mussolini's butt in the spring of '41", they give up at that moment from africa, then move all afrika korps to the eastern front. 

i believe such situation (rommel in russia) wouldnt change anything, moscow should never falls under german domination then hitler would lost a great bite of his army for nothing anyway. they killed 20 milion russians and 20 milion russians killed wasnt enought, so what would be enought ?

the battle of americans, was to eliminate a tyrant. the battle of the britons and the russians was for their own survival. when you fight for the survival of your people, your nation, every sacrifice is not enought.


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## parsifal (Jun 30, 2008)

Its hard to know what impact the western front had on the eastern front. re nearly 80 Divs left on garrison duty whilst Barbarossa was underway. But this is an over-simplistic way of looking at the issue. Quite apart from the threat posed by the British, an abandonment or lessening of the garrisons in the occupied territories would only have allowed the opportunities for armed insurrections there to increase....with partisans, uprisings, sabotage etc, all distinct possibilities. To say nothing of what the British, now completely unfettered by even the remote possibility of invasion. The possibility of direct British reinforcement of the eastern front cannot be ruled out. It was certainly something that was discussed. Churchill was against it, for obvious reasons, but it had been indicated that in the event of the Russian capital falling, the British would go in. In what strength, it is unclear. Stalin had demanded a force of over 30 divs, which was quite beyond anything the British could sustain, but a BEF style of commitment to the eastern front was not impossible 

Moreover, of those 80 divs, hardly any were fit for hard operations in the summer of 1941. Many of the divs lacked proper complements of artillery, or had been reduced to mere two battalion/two regiment divs, instead of the 3bn/3 regt configuration for a true front-line div. Much of the manpower being used was either under-trained, or overage, or both. Nearly all were short on transport (including horse transport). There were problems with nearly every formation left in the west....the Panzer unit in Norway for example had 50 Mk IIIs on strength, all of them nearly useless because they had faulty gearboxes, and gearbox transmissions were in such short supply, that not even the units already committed could be kept up to strength.

Now, many of the Infantry formations were hurriedly brought up to strength (by having their manpower profiles normalized, and hasty stripping out of reserves for equipment to bring TO&Es up to standard. They had also the benefit of an additional 4 months in which to train and prepare before being sent off the front. Even so, most of the formations sent to the east in the wake of the December emergencies were only ever satisfactory for defensive purposes, due to the shortcomings in their manpower, and/or equipment scales


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## Charly1 (Jun 30, 2008)

Hi Guys,
Ever notice that none of the control surfaces ever move in the dog fight graphics.


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## Njaco (Jun 30, 2008)

I agree with you Jug, that was the goal. And sorry for the rough "butt" language. 

Charly, I haven't seen that. The ones I have watched have that - at least most I've seen.


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## Erich (Jun 30, 2008)

the Ost front had a major impact on the Nazi mind in 1945, due to fact that 3/4's of the day time fighter force were moved by January 45 end to defend the eastern side into Berlin for the last battles, allowing the US/RAF to almost go literally untouched and smash the Reich to smitherines, this was the rule at least for the day ops.


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## drgondog (Jun 30, 2008)

Charly1 said:


> Hi Guys,
> Ever notice that none of the control surfaces ever move in the dog fight graphics.



I have seen them move - sometimes correctly sometimes wrong. IIRC the Bob Johnson fight had the 'high' wing with an up aileron


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## JugBR (Jun 30, 2008)

Njaco said:


> I agree with you Jug, that was the goal. And sorry for the rough "butt" language.
> 
> Charly, I haven't seen that. The ones I have watched have that - at least most I've seen.



its ok, but mussolini´s butt should was furrowed not rough...  

back to the dogfights, i have seem that episode about wwI and i cant believe the german triplane made that weird manouver "turn around by its own axis".

i also seem an episode of israeli air force, the guy talking about an egiptian mig 21 pilot who make an unbelievable manouver, like, stops in the air by vertical totally straight few meters from the dusty ground of desert.

should dogfights contains some "fisher stories" ?


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## Njaco (Jul 2, 2008)

IIRC the Dr I was very manuevarable and that is what made it so dangerous. Not many planes could do things like that.

One of those episodes also has a P-51 side-slipping to avoid a Bf 109 and getting off a snap shot.


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## Matt308 (Jul 3, 2008)

I saw that episode too, NJACO. And it wasn't a side slip, but rather an almost cobra-like maneuver. The pilot notes that the maneuver required full aft stick and right full rudder. While the graphics were certainly crude, it looked like the result was immediate loss of airspeed and spin induced. The maneuver was noted as being dangerous because of possibility of stall (and thus easy target during recovery). Looked more dangerous because you might exceed max wing loading. The maneuver looked physically impossible, but again I think that was poor graphics demonstrating the real phyics and 3-dimensional relationship between the P-51 and Bf-109.


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## Njaco (Jul 3, 2008)

Side-slip was just a quick reference.  You're right, I stood up from my chair and I think I actually cheered like at a football game. It was amazing even if the graphics were doozy.


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## whoever (Aug 9, 2008)

It might be inaccurate, but one thing to remember is by that time the Luftwaffe had lost almost all of its good pilots. They had planes left but no pilots. So they put some young guys with no training in the planes and sent them off to die as the luftwaffe last hurray.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 9, 2008)

whoever said:


> It might be inaccurate, but one thing to remember is by that time the Luftwaffe had lost almost all of its good pilots. They had planes left but no pilots. So they put some young guys with no training in the planes and sent them off to die as the luftwaffe last hurray.


Really? And where did you come up with that?


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## Matt308 (Aug 9, 2008)

I think I'm gonna wait for this second post. His first was not bad. Bold. But not bad.


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## Lucky13 (Aug 17, 2008)

Anyone seen the new Dogfight series (I think) about future of dogfights....starts here in the UK soon....


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## ONE_HELLCAT (Aug 18, 2008)

I think it's just one two hour episode. I saw the second half a while back and I wasn't impressed. Partly because they made the F-22 look too superior to other aircraft. I mean, it's a great plane, but I'm sure more than one would be shot down when attacked by I think two waves of Russian planes.


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## drgondog (Aug 18, 2008)

ONE_HELLCAT said:


> I think it's just one two hour episode. I saw the second half a while back and I wasn't impressed. Partly because they made the F-22 look too superior to other aircraft. I mean, it's a great plane, but I'm sure more than one would be shot down when attacked by I think two waves of Russian planes.



I had several long conversations with a RAF Wing CO of Eurofighters and F-22 pilots at Davis Monthan back in April. I was particularly interested in the RAF pilot observations.

His primary observation was that it was 'that good'. 

He felt he might have a chance if he could just get a visual on the F-22 but the experience in the joint exercises is that you 'were dead' long before a visual sighting was possible.

He also commented that the Euro was a better ACM a/c than the F-15 and 16 but the game today for the 'conventional' a/c is the bigger radar and the longer range missles - that the vision of the 60's is reality today.


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## eddie_brunette (Aug 18, 2008)

I wish they would do a series on the Luftwaffe aces/AXIS aces

edd


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## ONE_HELLCAT (Aug 18, 2008)

drgondog said:


> I had several long conversations with a RAF Wing CO of Eurofighters and F-22 pilots at Davis Monthan back in April. I was particularly interested in the RAF pilot observations.
> 
> His primary observation was that it was 'that good'.
> 
> ...


Heh, sounds exactly as I imagined. But in the show, didn't the Su-47 get in visual range of the F-22? it's been a while since I saw it.


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## timshatz (Aug 18, 2008)

Are they done with this show or are they going to do another season?


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## ONE_HELLCAT (Aug 18, 2008)

I think it's dead. But maybe competition from "Showdown: Air Combat" might bring it back.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Aug 18, 2008)

It's sounds pretty cool. This time the show will have REAL planes flying in it. 


About: Showdown: Air Combat: Military Channel

SHOWDOWN: AIR COMBAT has not been cancelled! We're just taking a little time to finish up the last couple of episodes. New SHOWDOWNS are on their way! 

The Military Channel takes you on an aerial journey with a world premiere series, SHOWDOWN: AIR COMBAT.

Tune in and see recreations of history’s most compelling dogfights with the restored aircraft from every era of aerial warfare flying against each other. 

U.S. Air Force Major Paul “Max” Moga of the Air Combat Command’s 1st Fighter Wing hosts the series and offers amazing insight into each aircraft’s strengths and weaknesses, its place in the evolutionary timeline of aircraft design innovation and the ground-breaking dogfighting tactics employed in each confrontation. 

From a chase plane, Major Moga provides play-by-play commentary of the fast-paced action as you fly alongside these historic warbirds. 

But the show is not just a celebration of the aircraft’s technical glory, Major Moga also introduces you to the extraordinary pilots who flew these planes on their original missions.


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## pbfoot (Aug 18, 2008)

There program guide indicates a 109 and 190 where are they getting these


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## ONE_HELLCAT (Aug 18, 2008)

Although they're real, they hardly dogfight with them. For the majority of the show they still use 3D models, which aren't as good as Dogfight's. Most of the planes are from Chino's Planes of Fame. Also I think the narrator's a little annoying. It's probably just me, but it sounds like he's bragging about being an F-22 pilot.

As for using 109s and 190s, I'm guessing rebuilds.


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## timshatz (Aug 19, 2008)

ONE_HELLCAT said:


> Also I think the narrator's a little annoying. It's probably just me, but it sounds like he's bragging about being an F-22 pilot.
> 
> .



Reminds me of a joke. "How can you tell if a guy is a fighter pilot"

"Don't worry, he'll tell ya'."


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## timshatz (Aug 19, 2008)

ONE_HELLCAT said:


> I think it's dead. But maybe competition from "Showdown: Air Combat" might bring it back.



Bummer. They got a new head over at the History channel. Some chick with a BC resume. Hard core lib. Gone from shows like dogfights to Ice Road Truckers and Ax Men. I guess it must be working for them. Lost me it doesn't seem to bother them that much.


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## Lucky13 (Aug 19, 2008)

timshatz said:


> Bummer. They got a new head over at the History channel. Some chick with a BC resume. Hard core lib. Gone from shows like dogfights to Ice Road Truckers and Ax Men. I guess it must be working for them. Lost me it doesn't seem to bother them that much.



Time for a wee email to History Channel, asking what the f*ck Ice Road Truckers and Ax Men have to do wit history????


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## timshatz (Aug 19, 2008)

Lucky13 said:


> Time for a wee email to History Channel, asking what the f*ck Ice Road Truckers and Ax Men have to do wit history????



I agree with ya'. Wish I had a stitch of confidence that it would work. Corporations don't care about anything but the bottom line and the stock price. If she can get eyes on the tube putting Ice Road Truckers on the lineup, she'll do it. 

Probably cheaper to produce anyway.


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## ONE_HELLCAT (Aug 19, 2008)

I doubt it's cheaper. In Ice Road Truckers you have to send a camera crew and all up north. In Dogfights, invite a few historians and pilots and the rest is done on computers.


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## Lucky13 (Aug 21, 2008)

Think that I'll send them an email to see what or more likely, IF I get a reply....


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## BIG BIRD (Aug 30, 2008)

I herd that the dogfights show will be cannceled after the secend season.


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## JugBR (Sep 1, 2008)

ONE_HELLCAT said:


> I doubt it's cheaper. *In Ice Road Truckers you have to send a camera crew and all up north.* In Dogfights, invite a few historians and pilots and the rest is done on computers.



man, i dont know if you guys like, but i think this show of the ice trukers is totally useless. worst shof of documentary channels ever ! 

about dogfights i just think these historians they call are not that good and the show dont tell the war stories of both sides. that episode about "the death of luftwaffe" was R I D I C U L O U S ! since that day i dont watch that show anymore. too much biased, as you guys like to say...

from HC i liked that documentary "battlefield" from 96 or 97... why dont they just reprise that ? was awsome !


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 1, 2008)

Aparently that is the worst episode in terms of baias, there have been a couple previous complaints about that particular one on here. However I can't speak specifically about it sisnce I haven't seen it. (I've seen all but a couple episodes and, while there is some bias shown in some circumsatances, on the whole most of the episodes are prette decent in this respect)


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## BIG BIRD (Sep 1, 2008)

I only wach the dogfights show because of the cool animation. There is just to much baias involved. Often times after I wach a episode I have to go pacing around fuming at the historical atrocitys they comit without any signes of remorse. They once stated that the p-61 was the only night fighter designed from the ground up. that is not true look at the hienkal he 219. They even say that a p-47 as supirior firepower to the fw 190 a-8 and that a p-38 can out turn a me 109. I think that these facts are blanch lies but I would like to know what the rest of the war bird comunity has tosay about these subjects.


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 2, 2008)

Some of those facts are debatable, it would depend on the circumstances. (iirc in the case of the P-38, the pilot had said the thing about the turning ability, this was with the early J model iirc)


I thought the P-61 thing was on a Discovery channel doccumentery, not the history channel.

In any case, probably the 2 mos capable nightfighters of the war were not designed as such, the Mossie and the Ju 88. (they were, however, both designed as fast bombers)


I tend to not put a lot of attention toward most of the technical/performance stuff they go into, the strenths/advantages that are listed (in the side-by-side comparison) are often incomplete, as are the explanations. (sometimes the historians/comentary/pilots get cut-off too early and part of the explanation is lost)


I ljust like haveing the stories told and the pilots interviews, The graphics are good sometimes, but they're also wrong sometimes too.


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## BIG BIRD (Sep 2, 2008)

I noticed that all the enemy aircraft always have the same paint schmes.


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 2, 2008)

How so? Do you mean all the LW aircraft? Or do you mean that for a given enemy (German, Japanese, N.Korean, N.Vietnamese, and those of the several episoded dealing in the middle east) all the a/c shown from that country have the same paint scheme?

Personally I haven't noticed either of these cases, the paint shemes may be a bit off, or completly wrong in some circumstances. They all seem to vary somewhat, at the very least between a/c types and between episodes.


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## Soren (Sep 2, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> Some of those facts are debatable, it would depend on the circumstances. (iirc in the case of the P-38, the pilot had said the thing about the turning ability, this was with the early J model iirc)



It doesn't matter which P-38 model it was cause no P-38 model could outturn any Bf-109 or Fw-190. The single seat fighters are simply vastly lighter compared to their available lift thrust.


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 3, 2008)

Even if we compare a Bf 109G-6 with a low/medium altitude rated engine to a P-38J at 25-30,000 ft?


Anyway, the P-38 was a single *seat* fighter, albeit not a single engined one.


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## Soren (Sep 3, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> Even if we compare a Bf 109G-6 with a low/medium altitude rated engine to a P-38J at 25-30,000 ft?



Well it depends on the difference in power to weight ratio then, and the P-38J better have a huge advantage in this area if it wants to fight in the horizontal with the Bf-109 at any altitude.



> Anyway, the P-38 was a single *seat* fighter, albeit not a single engined one.



Whoops! My mistake, I meant single engined fighters ofcourse


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 3, 2008)

For some reason that seems to be a fairly common mistake with the P-38 (and occasionally with other single-seat twins). In several articles on such a/c I see statements like "it could hold it's own with single seat fighters" or "a twin engine design that would have the performance of a single seat fighter."


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## BIG BIRD (Sep 3, 2008)

With the paint schemes it seams that they have a standard color for the enemy plane of one type or another and all of them have the same paint. I have seen the same paint skeem on fw 190 on almost all episodes and same thing with the mig 15, 19, 21. me 109 always have the same paint schemes when atacking bombers and only rarly have alterrations and I have never senn to me 262 painted diferently.




With the p-38 it couldent hold its own against a single engene fighter in a turning fight because its engenes produced to much drag during a turn and would cause spin outs if the piolt turned to tightly. With the push pull twin engen configuration[like the do 335] it has a centure even line of weight wich reduces drang and increuses role. You can emagine an egene on each wing would have the oppisite affect.


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## ONE_HELLCAT (Sep 5, 2008)

If I recall correctly, most allied aircraft on the show also all share the same paint scheme except sometimes the specific plane they're talking about, which makes sense to since that's the star. As for the Black Widow being the "only" one built from the ground up, they could just be talking about only allied aircraft. 

I'm not saying the show doesn't have a biased or is always accurate, just some of the things you described can be easily explained.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 6, 2008)

Its a fu*kin AMERICAN show, for American viewers... Americans, in general, wanna see a show about American fighters and pilots, and how Americans won the War...... Of course its gonna be biased....

As for the incorrect info, paint schemes etc etc, I dont pay that much attention to that, as the show is for entertainment, not educational lessons...

Compalin all u want to, when this show is cancelled, ur gonna bitch that its gone, so enjoy it and the re-runs while they last fellas...


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## JugBR (Sep 6, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> Its a fu*kin AMERICAN show, for American viewers... Americans, in general, wanna see a show about American fighters and pilots, and how Americans won the War...... Of course its gonna be biased....
> 
> As for the incorrect info, paint schemes etc etc, I dont pay that much attention to that, as the show is for entertainment, not educational lessons...
> 
> Compalin all u want to, when this show is cancelled, ur gonna bitch that its gone, so enjoy it and the re-runs while they last fellas...



thats why the show will be cancelled, because its a fo*kng american show, not a good one ! i really do prefer watch the "ancient technologies" for the 10000000th time that watch a show wheres people dont know the diference between flaps and ailerons. and im not pilot ! geeeeeezzzusss !

i wont gonna bitch thats gone, i dont watch that anymore since i realized its not good. and many people did the same, thats why the show will be canceled.

american choppers is an american show too, mithbusters are also a american show, dirty jobs...etc. but they are good, maybe because theyre from discovery ?


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## VALENGO (Sep 9, 2008)

The stories seems a little bit exaggerated for me, but it is an incredible tutorial about 3D modelling and texturing.


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## B-17engineer (Sep 9, 2008)

One episode was set in 1943 and they were talking about a P-51 being chased by 109's wasn't the P-51 introduced in '44 


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITRLk9b9AcY_

It says it at 2:00 min


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## drgondog (Sep 9, 2008)

B-17engineer said:


> One episode was set in 1943 and they were talking about a P-51 being chased by 109's wasn't the P-51 introduced in '44
> 
> 
> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITRLk9b9AcY_
> ...




Didn't watch it but the first Mustang I and P-51As were flying in 1942. The P-51B-1 first combat mission was 12/1/1943 with 354FG led by 4th FG CO Don Blakeslee out of Boxted.


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## Njaco (Sep 9, 2008)

> thats why the show will be cancelled, because its a fo*kng american show, not a good one ! i really do prefer watch the "ancient technologies" for the 10000000th time that watch a show wheres people dont know the diference between flaps and ailerons. and im not pilot ! geeeeeezzzusss !



and there we have why "Beverly Hillbillies" is still in reruns!


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## JugBR (Sep 9, 2008)

man HC is 30% interesting stuff, 70% ufos, big foots, biased docs...

when discovery will decides make a show about ww2 pilots, you guys will easily forget the lame dogfights of HC.


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 9, 2008)

One funny thing in the clip "P-38 vs Me 109" (Episode Title is Air Ambush) is that when they drop their tanks the P-38's pylons fall off along with the tanks. 


I personally won't forget the show though, if for no other reason than that I first saw it last summer while in vacation in Washington DC, after after visiting the NSAM that day. (that's when I started to get seriously interested in this stuff)


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## JugBR (Sep 9, 2008)

yes i understand, but my point is HC is not a serious channel anymore.


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 10, 2008)

Yeah, but at least there are some good pilot interviews in Dogfights along with (sometimes) decent depiction in CGI, and occasionally some good additions from the historians. (or "consultants") At least it has somthing to do with history. 

Certainly far from perfect, but they could do, and apparently are doing, much worse.


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## B-17engineer (Sep 10, 2008)

Alright thanks...


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 10, 2008)

Another thing I noticed wrong about those P-38's in "Air Ambush" is that the propellers are rotating the wrong way. (inward at the top of the disc instead of outward)


When I watched that episode I didn't think of any problem with a P-51 being there. Besides, that was part of the Olds's story, so it wouldn't have been an inaccuracy on the show's part. Also the thing abou the maneuverability of the P-38 vs 109 was also a quote from him, not a statement made by the historians.

However the P-38's are modeled as P-38J's (the prominant chin intakes clearly visible), but this is August of '43 and those would have to be brand new planes to be J models.


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## B-17engineer (Sep 10, 2008)

Yea the show can be a little inaccurate


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## Old Wizard (Sep 10, 2008)

B-17engineer said:


> Yea the show can be a little inaccurate



It's no worse than a lot of WWII movies that use wartime footage of equipment and aircraft that didn't exist in the time-frame of the movie's story. One of the common ones are scenes of a flight of F4Fs followed by ones of F6Fs which didn't exist at the time.


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## timshatz (Sep 11, 2008)

Rumor is that Dogfights has been dropped. Read on the HC boards that the decision is a year old. Had a ratings dip when they moved it from one night to another and that was pretty much that. 

A lot of people are pretty pissed at the HC because it shows so little history anymore. At least to read the boards. Too bad. Used to be a good channel.


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 11, 2008)

The writer's strike probably had something to do with it too. (as with several other shows that may not have been dropped otherwise)


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## Erich (Sep 11, 2008)

was able to see the Bodenplatte episode, aka Asch airfield scenario and to tell the truth it was the best one I have seen. Actually wish I had a copy of it ....


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## timshatz (Sep 12, 2008)

Erich said:


> was able to see the Bodenplatte episode, aka Asch airfield scenario and to tell the truth it was the best one I have seen. Actually wish I had a copy of it ....



If you have Tivo, or any DVR Recorder, you can set it to Record and it grabs them whenever they show. Usually, they are on once a month.


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## BIG BIRD (Sep 12, 2008)

I saw a history show on youtube.com talkining about the mig 15. They even went as fare to say the mig 15 was superior to the f-86. that show was from a long time ago. i think they called it heavy metal. The point is the current day histery channel would never have a show about a russian jet and they would even call inferior to the f-86 when in the past they called it superior.  

The current history channel is going to the dogs.


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 12, 2008)

Technology wise the F-86 was superior. (radar-ranging sight, fully boosted controls, truely trassonic -can safely break Mach 1.0-) But overall you'd have to go more into it than that to compare them, but generally speaking there about as even a match as there's been in arial warfare.

A pretty good comparison:
Sabre vs MiG


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## Soren (Sep 14, 2008)

Well the F-86 also benefitted more from German help, the Americans possessing some of Germany's top engineers. The Soviets had also captured German engineers scientists, but they're production couldn't manufacture the advanced German designs and so compromises had to be made. The Soviets always thought of quantity over quality.

The western production technology was better suited for the advanced technology captured in Germany.

The Sabre design did for example take advantage of many of the inventions on the Me-262, such as the full span slats vastly improving turn performance, stalling and landing characteristics, z variable incidence horizontal stabilizer etc etc. 

The MIG-15 featured wing fences to combat tip stalls, not the ideal solution but cheaper, quicker less complicated to manufacture.


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## JugBR (Sep 14, 2008)

both the sabre and the mig 15 design was very influentiated by me p.1101

Messerschmitt Me P.1101 Luft '46 Entry


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## Soren (Sep 15, 2008)

Yeah well the MIG-15 was abit more influenced by the Ta-183 design.


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## Lucky13 (Dec 8, 2008)

Anyone knows what's going on, with the gang that did "Dogfights"?

Is this the email [email protected] to those that did the series?


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## Lucky13 (Dec 8, 2008)

The Dogfights website is still up and running on History Channel....Dogfights - The History Channel


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## seesul (Feb 17, 2009)

How many episodes did they produce till now?


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## lesofprimus (Feb 17, 2009)

Looks like 8 parts the first season, 13 the second....


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## lesofprimus (Feb 17, 2009)

Season TWO
KAMIKAZE
Imperial Japan, desperate to prop up their rapidly collapsing empire, sent poorly trained volunteer pilots in suicide attacks against American naval targets. This wasn't the only time pilots used the plane itself as a weapon. German, Russian, and even US ramming tactics will be explored.

JET VS. JET
In the skies over North Korea F86s slug it out with communist MiG-15s. American pilots are in pursuit of a previously unknown glory...the title of jet ace.

THUNDERBOLT
The P-47 Thunderbolt, or Jug as it was known distinguished itself as one of the most lethal dogfighters of World War II- a classic warbird best remembered for its size, ruggedness, and reputation for protecting the pilot.

DOGFIGHTS OF THE HOLY LAND
The innovative, delta-winged MiG-21 arrives in the Middle East. Israel must acquire a fighter to counter the threat and soon settles on the French-built Mirage III. The Mirage and MiG-21 seemed destined for combat with each other...but only one will emerge as the preeminent delta-wing fighter of its day.

GUN KILLS OF VIETNAM
The era of missiles had arrived. Electronic warfare was coming of age. But when technology fails pilots are forced to do combat the old-fashioned way-maneuver in close and blow the enemy out of the sky with guns.

THE FIRST DOGFIGHTERS
Some of the greatest fighter pilots of all time engaged in epic duels over the battered landscape of France and Belgium. Fokker triplanes, Spads, and SE5s go head to head in World War I's most famous dogfights.

NO ROOM FOR ERROR
It's where a pilot can ill afford to make a mistake...but where dogfights are inexorably drawn. Down on the deck-at treetop level-the margin for error is zero.

NIGHT FIGHTERS
From Radar equipped Hellcats in the Pacific to modern stealth technology.

THE BLOODIEST DAY
May 10, 1972. The bloodiest day of air combat during the Vietnam war featured numerous twisting and turning dogfigts. Bob Lodge and Roger Locher pioneer electronic warfare and engage in one of the most exciting air battles of the war.

P-51 MUSTANG
In the European theater of world war II the P-51 Mustang proved itself to be the quintessential dogfighter and went on to become the most famous warbird in history.

DOGFIGHTS OF DESERT STORM
The planes have changed but the jeopardy remains the same. American fighter pilots pit F-15s against Iraqi MiG-25s and advanced MiG-29s as part of Operation Desert Storm. 

BATTLE FOR THE FALKLANDS
The 1982 Argentine invasion of the Falkland Islands triggered war with the United Kingdom. Remarkable vertical take-off and landing Sea Harriers take on Mirages and A4s in some of the best dogfights of the modern age. The British establish air superiority but the Argentines sink several ships with wave-top level attacks in A4s.

SUPERSONIC
Stories of the development of jet aircraft and their subsequent introduction into combat. Includes stories of test pilots who were the first Germans and Americans to fly these aircraft and the great air battles that were fought through the years at Supersonic speed.

DEATH OF THE LUFTWAFFE
The Luftwaffe's last great offensive was launched on January 1, 1945...called Operation Bodenplatte. Oscar Boesch was a German pilot who took part. Sandy Moats and Alden Rigby were American pilots whose airbase was swarmed by fighters. After this day, the Luftwaffe was shattered as an effective fighting force.

TUSKEGEE AIRMEN
African-American pilots of the 332nd distinguished themselves as one of the most successful fighter groups of the war, despite the bigotry and prejudice they faced from their own countrymen.

Season ONE
MIG ALLEY
Air Force fighter pilots risk their lives flying sleek F-86 Sabres above "Mig Alley" - the most dangerous piece of sky in the Korean War. The high-speed twists and turns of history's first jet dogfights pit American aces Robbie Risner and Ralph Parr in the battles of their lives against nimble Russian-built MIG-15 fighters.

AIR AMBUSH
Legendary fighter pilot, Colonel Robin Olds, sets an intricate trap for the North Vietnamese MiG-21's. His squadron, the Wolfpack, disguises its lethal F-4 Phantoms as vulnerable bombers. The MIGs scream in to challenge the Americans. The result is the most elaborate air sting of the war...CODE NAME...Operation Bolo.

FLYING TIGERS
Two weeks after Pearl Harbor, a courageous, rag-tag band of American mercenaries dare to challenge the overwhelming might of the Japanese Air Force. The legendary "Flying Tigers" slash through the skies of China, and help vanquish the unstoppable Japanese. Follow leading Tiger aces Tex Hill and John Alison as their P-40 Tomahawks fight to the death against the agile Japanese I-97 Nate.

GUADALCANAL
August 1942...the Solomon Islands. Heroic, die-hard American pilots of the tiny Cactus Air Force match skills and instincts against top Japanese aces as they battle in the skies above Guadalcanal. Legendary Marine Capt John Smith and Medal of Honor recipients Jeff De Blanc and Jim Swett pit their tough F-4F Wildcats against the relentless Japanese Zeros. At stake - the fate of the Pacific War.

HELL OVER HANOI
The skies over Vietnam. They fight in a supersonic world, where split second decisions determine if they live - or die. American F4 Phantom pilots Fred Olmsted and Dan Cherry take on the famed MiG-21 - the most feared threat in the sky. And one American, Steve Ritchie, becomes a dog fighting legend as an Air Force Ace. You're in the cockpit with some of the fiercest dogfighting ever seen in Vietnam!

THE ZERO KILLERS
1943...the skies over the Pacific. The infamous Japanese Zero is decimating American aircraft. No allied plane can match Japan's deadliest fighter plane manned by killed Imperial Navy veterans. The American Navy rushes to deploy a new fighter to take on the unstoppable Zero...the F6F Hellcat. The Zero has met its match. Now, you're in the cockpit with legendary dogfighters Robert Duncan, Hamilton McWhorter and Alex Vraciu...their epic dogfights blazing a new chapter in the annals of aerial warfare.

THE LAST GUNFIGHTER
The U.S. Navy's top fighter, the F8 Crusader flown by skilled fighter jocks Paul Speer and Phil Wood, tackles the fierce North Vietnamese MiG over the killing skies of Vietnam. Re-live one of the longest, gut-wrenching dogfights on record as Lt. Commander Richard Schaffert - out of missles and with his guns jammed - takes on a lethal MiG-17 and the best enemy pilot he's ever faced. He's got one chance - the amazing capabilities of the F8 Crusader, "the last gunfighter".

DEATH OF THE JAPANESE NAVY
1944...the Pacific. It is one of the most amazing, lopsided naval battles in history: A mighty Japanese fleet let by the Yamato, the biggest battleship in the world - versus Taffy 3, a small U.S. task unit of tin can destroyers and baby flat-tops...ships too weak to fight and too slow to run. David battles Goliath in a fight for survival - with the lives of thousands of American soldiers in the balance.


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## seesul (Feb 17, 2009)

THX Dan.Haven´t found the list of episodes from season 1. 'Swede' is in there?


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## lesofprimus (Feb 17, 2009)

I believe Swedes episode was part of the Zero Killers one.... Not 100% sure tho, its been awhile....


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## seesul (Feb 17, 2009)

He wasn´t there. Dogfights run on our TV actually and Zero Killer was a part showed last week. Swede wasn´t mentioned there.
Is there any chance to find out in which episode he was?


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## lesofprimus (Feb 17, 2009)

Possibly, the more I look at the list, I believe theres episodes not listed....


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## lesofprimus (Feb 17, 2009)

The episode that showed Swede was called "Long Odds"....


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEnDjwXnj3Y_


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1NTUzj7cGw_


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## seesul (Feb 17, 2009)

You re right! I know these links but haven´t realised it.
THX!


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## Lucky13 (Feb 17, 2009)

He was in the same one episode as with that B-17, right?


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## seesul (Feb 17, 2009)

I don´t know, haven´t seen that episode. Only a part of it with 'Svede' on youtube, mentioned by Dan...


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## FA_Crazy-Canuck (Mar 6, 2009)

Good day all. What ever happened to the Falklands episode? Never saw it aired. Did it make it to the DVD season 2 set?


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## Ernst (Nov 11, 2009)

I stopped with Dogfights on History Channel after Candelaria's manouver in P-51! Hehe...


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdCm5z2RpI8_


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 11, 2009)

Ernst said:


> I stopped with Dogfights on History Channel after Candelaria's manouver in P-51! Hehe...
> 
> 
> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdCm5z2RpI8_




So are you saying that the show sucks or Candelaria is full of sh!t?????


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## Ernst (Nov 11, 2009)

FLYBOYJ said:


> So are you saying that the show sucks or Candelaria is full of sh!t?????



Nothing about Candelaria, but i think if he is not kidding, the directors do not understand his comments or decided to make some "changes" (to give more action). I think that manouver, like it was showed in the show, its impossible!

I am not doubting any Candelaria markings in real life, but i think that things happened in another way. This TV shows usually changes what really happens, its like poetic license...


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 11, 2009)

Ernst said:


> Nothing about Candelaria, but i think if he is not kidding, the directors do not understand his comments or decided to make some "changes" (to give more action). *I think that manouver, like it was showed in the show, its impossible*!


I'm sure he's not kidding. 

As far as that maneuver, yes it can be done. Whether it was exactly depicted is another story.


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## Ernst (Nov 11, 2009)

FLYBOYJ said:


> I'm sure he's not kidding.
> 
> As far as that maneuver, yes it can be done. Whether it was exactly depicted is another story.



May he tried an intentional high speed stall waiting enemy to overshoot. But to hit a enemy that way is needed much luck. But much much much... luck! Planes lost much energy and speed in this kind of manouver, usually 109 pilot could overshoot and zoom away from p-51 weapons.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 11, 2009)

Ernst said:


> Planes lost much energy and speed in this kind of manouver


And you know this how? Do you fly?


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## Ernst (Nov 11, 2009)

FLYBOYJ said:


> And you know this how? Do you fly?



Yes. But i must admit that i never tried this kind of manouever. But based on aerodynamics i suppose that aircraft must lose speed! If not it is new to me! Sorry for my ignorance.Hehe...

And i am thinking you are taking my posts personal. Not do this! Never was my intention to derate any veteran, personaly i think they are people who deserves much respect.

It is just an opinion about that "manouver"!


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 11, 2009)

Ernst said:


> Yes. But i must admit that i never tried this kind of manouever. But based on aerodynamics i suppose that aircraft must lose speed! If not it is new to me! Sorry for my ignorance.Hehe...


No problem - if you have enough energy prior to the maneuver, technically it could be done although the aircraft will be stalled and as you said, an accelerated stall. Basically momentum (energy) is what is keeping you in the air. I've was subjected to such maneuvers on 2 or 3 occasions from what I could remember, it's pretty scary.

Going back to Candelaria - I do not believe there is any reason to doubt what he did, and I would say what he pulled off is more luck than skill.

As far as the producers of the show - I'm sure that did their best to simulate what was done, but let's face it, it is TV.


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## Guns'n'Props (Nov 14, 2009)

It was admittedly a 1 in a million shot. Credit to Candelaria for trusting his instinct and going for the maneuver...and pulling it off so effectively.


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## thor (Nov 19, 2009)

it sounded to me when he was explaining things that he was as surprised as anyone that he found himself with a guns solution, with the possible exception of the 109 pilot ...

it is my understanding that the pony did not like to do snap rolls and would tend to depart if done violently or carelessly ...

i think that is what he describes and boys being boys they will explore the limits of their toys. i am pretty sure i recall several of the p51 guys using these abrupt departures as last resort evasive maneuvers.

i also agree the graphic representation is very suspect, but i have no doubt he did what he said he did, he just probably had no idea what it looked like from the outside and the CGI team just didn't do a convincing job representing it.

there were other thinks about that episode that bothered me more, but like was mentioned it is TV, and pretty one sided t.v. at that. 

t


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## vinnye (Dec 28, 2009)

Hi, still pretty new here so will open my account by posting a link to some action on Youtube - I presume taken from the Zero Killers episode - which i am going to go back and watch. Actions like these started to take away the air of invincibility of the Zero!

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ob3lvqowHo_


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## baldpuki (Mar 10, 2010)

2nd post here so please bear with me. My dad was featured in one of the episodes and he said it was pretty accurate, at least as far as his exploits were concerned. Google Alden Rigby and you can see some cool stuff online. His episode was the Death of the Luftwaffe. You tube has it at: 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=booCDyCFxFg_ . Dad is 87 and healthier than I am and it is great to hear him "tell it like it was."


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## Njaco (Mar 11, 2010)

Thanks for the info Bald and welcome to the forum!


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## bobbysocks (Mar 14, 2010)

bald, get him to write down everything he can remember or get him talking and record as much as you can. that is a true legacy for you and your children. i didnt do that and kick myself. i do have a little bit from several talks he gave but for the most part now i am trying to piece together stories as i remember them.


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## baldpuki (Mar 15, 2010)

Way ahead of you bobbysocks. My dad has written his history and given it to me, my brothers and sister. Fortunately, we are fully aware what a treasure he is and take full advantage of his still razor sharp mind. We are very lucky. It's also much easier when there is a little fame involved. When dad was inducted into the Hill Air Force Hall of Fame, they taped it..."Dogfight"s is out there and there have been a lot of magazine articles and books about him, etc. I'm just happy both my parents are healthy and vibrant at 87, 86. Hope I inherited those genes!


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## bobbysocks (Mar 15, 2010)

baldpuki, another thing you might want to look into...or even initiate...the smithsonian is doing a thing on wwII vet intereviews as a video collection. a local air heritage group started it here and then they got vets from all services together and taped interviews with them. IT WAS AWESOME! some of these stories were never told and now were on tape for history's sake. they put it togther as a county thing and were asked to send it to DC. might be something happening in your area...or you might want to take the lead here and do it as a project yourself! another thing you want to do if ever given the chance is go to his fighter group reunion ( if they are going to have anymore ). 2001 was the last one for my dad's group (another instance where i should have recorded everything)...these guys are getting up there. i also had a chance to go to a couple airshows the last year of my dad's life and share that. we hit the gathering of mustangs in columbus and bumped into a couple guys from his group. i tried like hell to get him up in a 51...to dance once again with his first love...i would have paid whatever it took...but sad to say couldnt make it happen. i guess what i am saying is cherish the moments and dont put anything off...that in itself is a huge reward.


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## baldpuki (Mar 15, 2010)

My dad got to ride in a Mustang again just last year. Mom was in a B-17 right beside him and watched as he did a few barrel rolls (dual control Mustang) and had fun in general for about an hour. It was a thrill for both of them! Dad's group still gets together and they even have a regular magazine. I agree that anything we can do to preserve their legacy, we should. My brother is quite an historian and is even more into this than I am. I'll mention what you suggested and maybe between the 2 of us we can make something happen. I am just blessed that we have s much history and information that we do and that he is around to ask about stuff in "real time."


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## bobbysocks (Mar 16, 2010)

Thor wrote:
"it is my understanding that the pony did not like to do snap rolls and would tend to depart if done violently or carelessly ..."

I dont know about that one. snap rolls were one of my dad's favorite maneuvers...he wa s excited to out out of basic trainer and into something that had enough "guts" to do stuff like that. i never remember him complaining it ( 51s) didnt do them well.. maybe Bald could ask his dad???

Thor wrote:
"i think that is what he describes and boys being boys they will explore the limits of their toys. i am pretty sure i recall several of the p51 guys using these abrupt departures as last resort evasive maneuvers."

they put their machines through the paces...they had to know what it would and would not do. and each of them had their own tricks. during dogfights..by instinct, invention, the whisper in the ear from one's guardian angel, ... they would make these planes do things they never were intended or never thought they could do. but it was interesting ( and i got this from more than a few fighter pilots ) that most could not recall how they did it after the heat of battle. another fellow pilot who witnessed the maneuver would ask later how he did it. and the answer would be..."i dont know. i was trying everything to get him off my tail...or to get a shot." incredible times begat incredible actions....but that still isnt to say tv doesnt embellish a tad now and then.


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## peterpro (Jun 2, 2010)

Me and my father watched this series but we dropped it because always the us won and the lw,ijn and ija were going down in flames


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## Andrewc (Jul 28, 2010)

Dogfights Season 1 is now available in the UK and season 2 is due out later this year:

Dogfights - Season 1 [DVD]: Amazon.co.uk: DVD

Dogfights Season 2 [DVD]: Amazon.co.uk: DVD

Andrew


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## dennis420b (Jul 28, 2010)

peterpro said:


> Me and my father watched this series but we dropped it because always the us won and the lw,ijn and ija were going down in flames



I agree. A lot of the shows on the History or Military channel, portray the American's as invincible and superior to all that would oppose them. Take the "top ten" shows. No matter the category be it firearms, ships, fighters, bombers, the American's always have at least 5 of the ten designs. I had to stop watching them, as my wife got sick of me pausing the program to show her in books that what ever they were saying was untrue.


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## Trebor (Jul 28, 2010)

I'll be getting the entire series on DVD soon just for $30!


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## zoomar (Jul 29, 2010)

dennis420b said:


> I agree. A lot of the shows on the History or Military channel, portray the American's as invincible and superior to all that would oppose them. Take the "top ten" shows. No matter the category be it firearms, ships, fighters, bombers, the American's always have at least 5 of the ten designs. I had to stop watching them, as my wife got sick of me pausing the program to show her in books that what ever they were saying was untrue.



Me to. I've never though too highly of any of the so-called "military history" shows on the Military Channel, History Channel, or Discovery. The old "Wings of the Luftwaffe, etc..." documentaries were great, with their great original footage, excellent narration, and relatively rare but good interviews, but now, as you say, we tend to get glorified testosterone-filled advertisements for the modern US military and the US arms industry, excessive interviews with so called "experts" - often always the same people, those silly "best ten" shows with their simplistic narration an goofy graphics, or so called explorations of strategy and tactics that look more like reality TV with a bunch of old guys dressed up as Japanese admirales looking at a map table.

One silly thing I'd actually like to see on the Military Channel is a reality game show in which teams of contestents (maybe real pilots, so-called experts, celebrities, or computer gamers) would play against each other using high-end PC combat flight games like Il-2 Sturmovik or Rise of Flight, with the game footage edited for TV in much the same way the computer graphics are used in the Dogfights show. Actually, the graphics on games like Il-2 and Rise of Flight are just about as good as what's on Dogfights anyway. The show might feature actual historical situations as well as "fantasy" ones to examine combat tactics and illustrate the relative merits of aircraft types.


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## peterpro (May 30, 2011)

Oh,and an another reason why i dropped it is the that there is no episode about the RAF and it's aces in exile,night bomber and night fighter pilots.Also,no episode about the Luftwaffe's top guns(Erich Hartmann,Gerard Backhorn,Gunther Rall etc...).And what about the IJN!It had the best carrier-born air corps in the start of war!And last,but not least,the nation that suffered most during WWII the USSR.What about the VVS and its bloody 4-year strugle for air-superiority against the Luftwaffe????


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## renrich (May 30, 2011)

IMO, on the whole the History Channel and Dogfights is a bunch of BS. I saw the beginning of one the other night with Robin Olds and his P38 and it was so full of it I turned it off. I bet if Olds ever watched that episode, even he would be embarrased.


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## icepac (Jun 1, 2011)

Many WWII fighters were prohibited from doing snap rolls but that doesn't mean they were limited in other aspects of acm.............just the snap roll.


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