# USA/Japanese Pacific color pixs.



## Tieleader (Nov 15, 2018)

Hey guys.
Many years ago when I painted the nose art on the Collings Foundation A-26C the first time (I'll post those another time)
,whilst the bird was down for an annual inspection,I meet
an A-20 pilot (sorry don't remember his name) who was part of the team. We got to talking of course and he told me had a few pictures of his time in the Pacific. He was gracious enough to make copies of these for me. He said these were taken at Ie Shima island in 1945. The G4M Bettys were carried some officers that where transferred to the C-54 that took off shortly later. Don't know why. The rest of the birds were various ones around the base. Never seen any of these before so I have no reason to doubt him. Anyone care to clarify on these?
In any event enjoy!

Reactions: Like Like:
4 | Winner Winner:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Wurger (Nov 15, 2018)




----------



## Gnomey (Nov 16, 2018)

Good stuff!


----------



## GrauGeist (Nov 16, 2018)

Nice collection!

The 7th pic in, is an SB-17G complete with a lifeboat.


----------



## Tieleader (Nov 16, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> Nice collection!
> 
> The 7th pic in, is an SB-17G complete with a lifeboat.


Thank the pilot who gave me them. I just hoarded them for years...


----------



## Shinpachi (Nov 16, 2018)

I remember a Betty pilot's testimony - No.1 Betty suffered flap trouble to land on Ie-shima, so he had to try it again after No.2 landed.
Thanks for sharing, Tieleader. 
Fantastic pics


----------



## Tieleader (Nov 16, 2018)

Shinpachi said:


> I remember a Betty pilot's testimony - No.1 Betty suffered flap trouble to land on Ie-shima, so he had to try it again after No.2 landed.
> Thanks for sharing, Tieleader.
> Fantastic pics


Wow! Amazing to think that somehow the story could be filled in. Looking again you can clearly see the flaps are not down in #2 pix. Do you have any other details? The A-20 pilot I got these from had little remembrance about the events other that what I posted. I would love to hear another else you can share. Also as I told Dave, thank the pilot I just passed them on.


----------



## GrauGeist (Nov 16, 2018)

Another fun fact that these color photos bear out (and Shinpachi and I have discussed this in other threads) is that the surrender crosses are supposed to be green!
The crosses on these G4Ms are deliberately black and look much like Balkan Crosses...

Reactions: Agree Agree:
2 | Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Tieleader (Nov 16, 2018)

Give me few minutes I'll try to get some better resolutions.


----------



## Tieleader (Nov 16, 2018)

This is the best I can do. I hate it when the machine is smarter that me.
Maybe somebody more tech savy than me can improve on these.
Definitely look black as well in the originals as well, else a VERY dark green.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## GrauGeist (Nov 16, 2018)

Tieleader said:


> Give me few minutes I'll try to get some better resolutions.


The resolution of the photos are great, no problem.

But the bulk of the IJN and IJA aircraft painted in surrender markings were captured in black and white photographs, and the debate raged for years that the crosses were green paint until color photos started surfacing. And in many color photos, the crosses were indeed black instead of green, as the surrender terms dictated.

Shinpachi-san and I were in agreement that the black (instead of green) were not by accident.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
1 | Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Tieleader (Nov 16, 2018)

Why black? Just whatever paint was available?


----------



## GrauGeist (Nov 16, 2018)

Tieleader said:


> Why black? Just whatever paint was available?


Think of it as the last great act of defiance by the Imperial military.

The U.S. just got finished fighting an enemy that bore black crosses and here's the Japanese with black crosses on their aircraft in defiance of the order to have green crosses on their aircraft.

They had plenty of green paint, so it shouldn't have been a problem to make the crosses green

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Tieleader (Nov 16, 2018)

Nothing like a final FU to your enemy!

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## GrauGeist (Nov 16, 2018)

Tieleader said:


> Nothing like a final FU to your enemy!


Yep!


----------



## Tieleader (Nov 17, 2018)

I suppose putting a swastika on the tail would have been pushing the matter...


----------



## GrauGeist (Nov 17, 2018)

Ohh...yeah...

That probably would have been a bit overboard...


----------



## Tieleader (Nov 17, 2018)

Used this opportunity to replace the original grainy pixs with the "scanner is smarter than ignorant monkey" pixs.


----------



## Shinpachi (Nov 17, 2018)

We should remember that, as of August 19 1945 in Ie-shima, both countries were still under the state of war.
IJN personnels like 302Ku in Atsugi airbase showed strong resistance, in the form of uprising, to the government's decision for surrender.

The 2 Bettys flown to the Ie-shima were the oldest model of G4M1 becuase naval officials thought it was too early to show the enemy their latest models when the war was not formally over yet. They would not have hesitated to call such black cross as green cross with excuse that Japanese used to call the beautiful black hairs like "Green black hairs". Green originally meant "vivid", not the term for color.

The flap trouble of No.1 was caused by the aged electric circuits. Pilot was unable to fix it but warned on radio "Land immediately or you will be shot down" by the US Forces on the ground. As the brake condition was also not good, he was about to ram a US plane parked beside the runway like Kamikaze.

The point to understand the Ie-shima situation would be that the war was not over until September 2, 1945.

Reactions: Bacon Bacon:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## Shinpachi (Nov 17, 2018)

A local historian shows a Betty model at the Samejima beach near Tokyo.
He says the No.1 Betty ditched here because of fuel shortage on her way back to Tokyo in the midnight of August 20, 1945. 
Crews were rescued.





Source: 緑十字機 (岡部英一) (@sera777) | Twitter

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## GrauGeist (Nov 17, 2018)

Shinpachi, have divers ever located the #1 G4M or do they just have a general dea where it ditched at?


----------



## Tieleader (Nov 17, 2018)

Shinpachi said:


> We should remember that, as of August 19 1945 in Ie-shima, both countries were still under the state of war.
> IJN personnels like 302Ku in Atsugi airbase showed strong resistance, in the form of uprising, to the government's decision for surrender.
> 
> The 2 Bettys flown to the Ie-shima were the oldest model of G4M1 becuase naval officials thought it was too early to show the enemy their latest models when the war was not formally over yet. They would not have hesitated to call such black cross as green cross with excuse that Japanese used to call the beautiful black hairs like "Green black hairs". Green originally meant "vivid", not the term for color.
> ...


Thanks for all the intell ! I knew somebody out there would be able to fill in the blanks. Do you think his intention was to purposely ram an American plane because of the brakes or accidentally because of them?


----------



## Tieleader (Nov 17, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> Shinpachi, have divers ever located the #1 G4M or do they just have a general dea where it ditched at?


Like to know that myself.


----------



## Shinpachi (Nov 17, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> Shinpachi, have divers ever located the #1 G4M or do they just have a general dea where it ditched at?



Good point, Dave as always 
By the year of 2011, a part of fuel tank and a piece of elevator parts were recovered but the rest are unknown yet. 
Local people say several typhoons had brought them away.






Source: 地震動の擦痕





Tieleader said:


> Thanks for all the intell ! I knew somebody out there would be able to fill in the blanks. Do you think his intention was to purposely ram an American plane because of the brakes or accidentally because of them?



His intention was to carry 4x250kg bombs to drop there but, instead, he was given a pistol in Tokyo before departure.
He understood it for suicide in case of being captured there.
I don't think he wanted to be a Kamikaze when he was hard to stop his Betty.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Informative Informative:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## Tieleader (Nov 17, 2018)

Thanks!

Reactions: Friendly Friendly:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Capt. Vick (Nov 17, 2018)

I thought it would be bigger


----------



## fubar57 (Nov 21, 2018)

Great stuff here


----------



## special ed (Nov 22, 2018)

I have always read the Japanese surrender delegation arrived in two Bettys and transferred to the C-54 to be taken to the ceremony. Allegedly, the only way any Japanese airplane was to be allowed in the air was with white overall and green crosses. So much for the green color.


----------



## augerin (Nov 22, 2018)

This should explain....

Green Cross to Bear > Vintage Wings of Canada

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Tieleader (Nov 22, 2018)

Wonder what the odds are the the "dumbo" b-17 I posted is the same pictured in flight in the above article. That would very cool.


----------



## Capt. Vick (Nov 22, 2018)

I would say pretty good, no?


----------



## Shinpachi (Nov 23, 2018)

augerin said:


> This should explain....
> 
> Green Cross to Bear > Vintage Wings of Canada
> 
> ...



Kim Jong-un is doing same for the denuclearization.
Sophistry is a joke in Asia at least and no one listens to it seriously.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## mokyme (Nov 27, 2018)

Guys,

Seriously, do you think that all the GI's who sent letters home, the Life magazine correspondents' description and 345th BG personnel who escorted the Bettys to Ieshima describing 'green crosses' were color blind? Or is it a fable like the "Emperor's New Clothes" where everyone was saying look at those beautiful green crosses when in reality they were black!

Sorry to rock your boat but there is no doubt that the crosses were a dark black green probably IJN dark green camouflage paint with possibly some black added due to shortage of paint. However, the overall "tint" was green and a scan of the Betty that left Ieshima very late in the day of the 19th August 1945 looks black but I believe this is due to the inherent inaccuracies of the dyes used in Kodachrome processing and perhaps also because the Kodak Wratten filter was not used to correct for the very late afternoon sunlight (note that white appears yellow). The fact that it looks black in the photos does not mean it was black.






The close-up 2nd photo shows what it would look like when corrected with a Wratten filter.






BTW the above pics are the Betty that ditched off the coast of Japan due to insufficient fuel. This was due to the US Air Force personnel tasked with refuelling not completely filling the outer wing tanks of the Betty which need topping up after the initial fill. Of course, whether this was by design, or an error on their part, is open to question.

Darryl

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Useful Useful:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Shinpachi (Nov 27, 2018)

Japanese call this signal color "Ao (blue)", never "Midori (green)".
Here is another chance to enjoy colors to laugh.





Source: 青リンゴはgreen apple、青信号はgreen light。ではアオガエルは?

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Capt. Vick (Nov 28, 2018)

I have heard that the ancient greeks did not have a name for the color blue, calling the sea red instead to quote one example...

Reactions: Bacon Bacon:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Shinpachi (Nov 28, 2018)

Good point, Jim.
Japanese "Ao" indicated both green and blue until they began to learn English.
If they had intened a good joke, answer would have been like this -

Reactions: Agree Agree:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## GrauGeist (Nov 28, 2018)

The Ancient Greeks did have names for the primary colors:
erythros: red
cirrhos: orange
xanthos: yellow
chlōros: green
cyanos: blue
ioīdēs: violet
porphyrūs: purple
melās: black
leucos: white
chrȳsos: gold
argyros: silver

It's been ages since I've been in my books, so I may be a bit rusty with the spelling, but it's close enough to give an idea of the names.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
3 | Like List reactions


----------



## Capt. Vick (Nov 28, 2018)

Depends on how ancient you consider ancient...

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-the-ancient-Greeks-did-not-have-name-for-color-blue

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## GrauGeist (Nov 28, 2018)

Capt. Vick said:


> Depends on how ancient you consider ancient...
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-the-ancient-Greeks-did-not-have-name-for-color-blue


That's a good debate, the preponerance of the evidence goes to Cyonos (κυάνεος) which is still used today, though reprenting a different shade (Cyan).
As is covered in the linked debate, the Greeks used a form of object association "the color of fire" or "shades of the soil" when writing or having conversation, etc. 
So the experts are correct in answering that question, that the Greeks did not have a word for blue.
However, the other experts on the other side of the fence are also correct, in that the Greeks had naming conventions for such things as pigments and dyes and Cyanos was one such name used.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
1 | Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## GrauGeist (Nov 29, 2018)

mokyme said:


> Guys,
> 
> Seriously, do you think that all the GI's who sent letters home, the Life magazine correspondents' description and 345th BG personnel who escorted the Bettys to Ieshima describing 'green crosses' were color blind? Or is it a fable like the "Emperor's New Clothes" where everyone was saying look at those beautiful green crosses when in reality they were black!
> 
> ...


Go back and look at the photos taken during the arrival of the G4Ms - there's plenty of green around to use as a base - such as foilage and U.S. equipment.
Those crosses were black. Period.

The Imperial Japanese had access to green paint as military issue. NONE of which was "almost black", as their green paint was designed more as natural camouflage shades.
Those crosses were painted black. Period.
The Imperial Japanese were a proud and defiant people - the thought of surrendering to an enemy was distasteful and shameful.

There are some surrender crosses that appeared on a few Japanese aircraft later that were blue on a white field, but the majority of the crosses painted over the Hinomaru on a wide range of aircraft types were black.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Agree Agree:
1 | Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Shinpachi (Nov 29, 2018)

Not a few modern people still try to see it green.
Interesting.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## mokyme (Nov 29, 2018)

GreyGhost,

So you are saying the thousands of GIs, and other service personnel on Ieshima are color blind? There are many published eye witness testimonies, many black & white photos sent home with handwritten notes on back describing "Betty bombers painted white with green crosses".







Remember that as of the 19th August 1945 the Surrender terms specifying that Japanese aircraft be painted white with green crosses had not been ratified or told to all Japanese Air Force personnel. This requirement was only known to high ranking Japanese HQ officials and communicated to the unit supplying the Betty transports to ensure the surrender delegation's safety. The eye witnesses weren't just parroting what they had heard about the painting of Japanese aircraft after the surrender.

As the owner of the Jeffrey Ethell Collection, with nearly 30 color photos taken of the Bettys at Ieshima, I can say there are only 2 or 3 showing a pale olive green vegetation next to the glaring white coral strips. Go to Flickr.com and search with term - _G4M surrender JEC_, As I said previously, because the Kodachrome dyes were incapable of rendering that dark green hue with a green tint, means the crosses always appear black.






I rest my case.

Darryl


----------



## Shinpachi (Nov 29, 2018)

Hoping it was dark green too, I remember one of my friends who studied military paints at Mitsubishi once pointed out the filter effects.
Are we seeing the same colors through our own eyes?





Source: GB Lifesciences

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## special ed (Nov 29, 2018)

I question Darryl's idea that Kodachrome cannot get the green hue correct. As a retired Kodak employee with 40 years and an aircraft photo collection of my own, the green would not photograph off color without some other color shift. I have slides old enough that they were ASA 8 and do not show a color specific shift. The ones that show slight fading do so evenly through the spectrum. Kodachrome has always shown full color saturation as opposed to Ektachrome's slightly less so. It is possible some paint will reflect less light but to assume all the green paint used across Japan is from the same batch is impossible. I suspect some green was made by mixing black and that may photograph closer to black. If the slides in the Ethell are original, the color can be considered accurate, but if duplicates are made, some color shifts will occur.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## GrauGeist (Nov 29, 2018)

mokyme said:


> GreyGhost,
> 
> So you are saying the thousands of GIs, and other service personnel on Ieshima are color blind? There are many published eye witness testimonies, many black & white photos sent home with handwritten notes on back describing "Betty bombers painted white with green crosses".
> 
> ...


Your attached photo proves nothing, rest your case all you want.

During the Battle of Britain, RAF pilots were shooting down Heinkel He113 fighters - people's observations are not alway spot-on.

With the broad range of green colors the IJN and IJA had at their disposal, why would they not use any of them?

And Kodachrome dyes were most certainly capable of color range definition in the RGB spectrum.

Oh...and lo and behold, the *blue* cross on this KI-46 shows up fine against the greens (not blacks) in this color photo.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
1 | Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Tieleader (Nov 29, 2018)

mokyme said:


> GreyGhost,
> 
> So you are saying the thousands of GIs, and other service personnel on Ieshima are color blind? There are many published eye witness testimonies, many black & white photos sent home with handwritten notes on back describing "Betty bombers painted white with green crosses".
> 
> ...





mokyme said:


> As the owner of the Jeffrey Ethell Collection, with nearly 30 color photos taken of the Bettys at Ieshima


Perhaps you could show some more of these to support your point?


mokyme said:


> I can say there are only 2 or 3 showing a pale olive green vegetation next to the glaring white coral strips


Not a real photographer by any stretch of the imagination, but wouldn't the bright light only amplify the green color as compared against a known constant such as the black shadows of the interior wheelwells by way of comparison? By way of my poor example, in my original post img133.jpg, the dark blue of the US insignia on the C-54 in the background and the crosses on the Bettys which are darker.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## mokyme (Nov 29, 2018)

Special Ed,

Thanks for your discussion about the Kodachrome process having the ability to render all hues across the color spectrum. That might be correct but the problem here is there is only one original Kodachrome slide of the Betty at ieshima in the Jeff Ethell Collection (the other 20 odd are dupes). That is the one I posted originally.






That slide was drum scanned at 4800 dpi to give a 6000 pixel wide scan at 72 dpi. While it was professionally scanned with the software available to the technician I doubt the scanner was calibrated to a Kodak IT8 target that corrects for Kodachrome slide film. You will notice a slight reddish tint to the scan that can't be easily corrected in Photoshop.

Of course, the real problem with this image is it was taken very late in the day without the correct Kodak filter. Had the photographer used the Wratten 82C blue filter to remove reddish cast in early morning or late afternoon sunlight we would see an entirely different color on the "black crosses". The red is over saturated which affects the green to some extent.

Normally as Kodachromes age the green & blue dyes become more pronounced and what is often seen in WWII color images is desaturated reds. But that appears to have not happened in this case.

Unfortuantely I sold that original Kodachrome slide for $800 so am not in a position to rescan with a scanner corrected with the Kodak Kodachrome IT8 target.

Color perception is probably the "blackest" of the Dark Arts, if you will pardon the pun. You cannot rely on any film process to give an accurate rendition of all hues across the spectrum. I agree with Special Ed that greens are not desaturated or under represented but respectfully point out that we are dealing with a very dark green on a white contrasty background which suppresses the green hue considerably in my opinion. Perhaps one day a color image will surface that shows the cross in closeup without too much of the white contrasty background.

Finally, the fact that IJNAF and IJAAF had a range of green paints available does not count for much. These are IJN Air Force transports and the main camouflage color available at the time was IJN Dark Green. The transports started from Kisarazu airfield, a Naval Air Station near Tokyo. The only green they would have had was IJN Dark Green. Besides that the exact hue or shade of green was not specified in the surrender terms. You are right it could have been light, mid or dark green or even blue-green as some photos show. But on the 19th August 1945 at Ieshima it was dark green.

The Jeffrey Ethell Collection is hosted at Flickr.com. Enter in the Search box at top the search string: G4M surrender JEC

Darryl

Reactions: Informative Informative:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## Shinpachi (Nov 30, 2018)

This is introduced as an antique first aid box found in the US.








Source: 【FIRST AID】ファーストエイド・木製・アンティーク・救急箱/木箱　USA

Latest one.




Source: マーキュリー エマージェンシーボックス ホワイト MERCURY 救急箱 ブリキ 薬箱 薬ケース 収納ボックス 小物入れ｜Wowma!（ワウマ）

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## mokyme (Nov 30, 2018)

Shinpachi,

What is really interesting is that neither of the usual two colorrs, red and green, has been used for the crosses on these old First Aid boxes. Post war they were usually red but use of the red cross is banned worldwide by Red Cross society. Typically, closer to modern age, the color was green.

Do you think that Japanese had a preference for black crosses and perhaps this spilled over when they had to paint the crosses on the surrender Bettys?

Nothing would surprise me. 

Darryl

Reactions: Informative Informative:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## Shinpachi (Nov 30, 2018)

mokyme said:


> Do you think that Japanese had a preference for black crosse and perhaps this spilled over when they had to paint the crosses on the surrender Bettys?
> Nothing would surprise me.
> Darryl



Absolutely Yes.
As Japanese respected Germans, those 'black' closses would be a message to Germans like "We fought well".
This is my natural impression as a Japanese to see them.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
1 | Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## special ed (Nov 30, 2018)

There were many official photographers waiting for the two aircraft to land and I suspect some were using movie cameras. As by 1945 Kodachrome movie film was increasingly available, perhaps those historians among us with contacts at the Library of Congress could do research into long unseen color movies of the surrender. I have seen color movies of the ceremony on the Missouri, so I suspect there are others considered less important by the documentary producers.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## special ed (Nov 30, 2018)

Although not exactly in keeping with this thread, this does involve Japan and paint. My buddy's father told of an incident when he was a very young GI in Japan. He was a PFC on board a ship to Japan when the war was ended. His duty in Japan was mostly boring guard duty. The GIs were instructed not to insult the Japanese, or take revenge, or assault them under threat of severe military punishment. On one occasion he was assigned to guard the cargo in an LST which was lumber, mostly 2x4s, and 5 gallon buckets of olive drab paint. His shift was 24 hours and was to stay on board and was allowed to sleep there as a cot was provided. He was issued an M-1 carbine and one 15 round clip of ammunition. He couldn't remember if at this time he had been promoted to corporal. Late in the night, he was lying on the cot reading by a small light, when he heard noises. Investigation revealed three Japanese men removing two buckets of paint each trip down the gangway to the dock. The Japanese were critically short of building supplies. My friend's dad knew he was in a serious situation as he didn't speak Japanese and couldn't shoot them for fear of court marshall. It came to him that these were older men and most had been in the army so he knew they would recognize the sound of a round being chambered. He chambered a round which echoed through the ship. The men froze, then returned all the paint up the gangway into the ship and left. Problem solved.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## Shinpachi (Nov 30, 2018)

Good story Ed 
Penicillin was the most popular item for the burglars as sold ten times more expensive than the market price.


----------



## Gnomey (Dec 4, 2018)

Good shots!


----------



## Shinpachi (Dec 5, 2018)

augerin said:


> This should explain....
> 
> Green Cross to Bear > Vintage Wings of Canada
> 
> ...



The article tells "_The party will employ an unarmed airplane, type Zero, model 22, L2, D3. _"
Such a plane would have been shot down by friendly fire immediately as looked the DC-3.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Agree Agree:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## fubar57 (Dec 7, 2018)

This is from ~318thFighterGroup.IeShima.html Not saying right or wrong just making an addition...

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Informative Informative:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## Shinpachi (Dec 8, 2018)

It seems that mutual irony didn't work well each other.


----------



## Tieleader (Dec 8, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> This is from ~318thFighterGroup.IeShima.html Not saying right or wrong just making an addition...
> 
> View attachment 520798​


Nice. Haven't seen that photo before.


----------



## fubar57 (Dec 10, 2018)

This is the cover of Ventura Publications "Classic Warbirds number 7", printed 2007...




​In it there is a 10 page article called "Pacific Surrender Schemes" and the opening paragraph is as follows...




​Admittedly, the cover is colourized. Here is the actual photo from the book, note the fuselage cross is lighter than the hinomaru

Reactions: Informative Informative:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## Shinpachi (Dec 10, 2018)

A good pic, Geo.
Generally the white paint stock was not so much as other colors like green, brown and black as fewer chances to use.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Tieleader (Dec 10, 2018)

Found one more photo buried in a corner. Not the greatest shot, still it completes the set I have. Maybe some eagle eyed person can spot something new!





Still looks black to me...

Reactions: Agree Agree:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## Shinpachi (Dec 11, 2018)

I have checked Imperial GHQ's communication records exchanged between Tokyo and Manila.

Manila told "The party will employ an unarmed airplane, type Zero, model 22, L2, D3. "
This was sent by Morse code and read by Japanese like this "The party will employ an unarmed airplane, Zero model 22, Love2, Dog3."

Tokyo answered "We have no idea which airplane you are requesting for the party."
Manila answered "It is like DC-3 or Mitsubishi MC-20 but you may use other model. Advise us which one before departure."

Tokyo understood the green cross as green one in the message.
No problem on procedure.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## Gastounet (Dec 11, 2018)

On the C54 behind the Betty, the blue circle around the white star looks black to me. 
Can this happen when the pictures are more than 70 years old?

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Tieleader (Dec 11, 2018)

Shinpachi said:


> I have checked Imperial GHQ's communication records exchanged between Tokyo and Manila.
> 
> Manila told "The party will employ an unarmed airplane, type Zero, model 22, L2, D3. "
> This was sent by Morse code and read by Japanese like this "The party will employ an unarmed airplane, Zero model 22, Love2, Dog3."
> ...


Do you have transcripts as to the actual wording on the paint schemes?


----------



## Shinpachi (Dec 11, 2018)

Tieleader said:


> Do you have transcript as to the actual wording on the paint schemes?



Yes, here it is.

Message from Manila dated August 16.
Translated into Japanese and reported on August 17, 1945.
Source: JACAR https://www.jacar.go.jp/english/index.html
Reference code: C14061074800
Page: 18

"右飛行機全体ハ白色ニ塗ラレ飛行機ノ胴側(両側)並ニ各翼ノ上下部ニ五百「ヤード」ヨリ容易ニ認識セラル緑色（グリーン）ノ十字「クロースズ」(複数)ヲ附スルモノトス"

Retranslation into English
"The airplane mentioned in the right shall be painted in white overall and bear crosses in color of green which can be recognized easily from 500 yards on the fuselage(both sides) and the upper/under of each wing."

Reactions: Like Like:
4 | Like List reactions


----------



## Tieleader (Dec 11, 2018)

Shinpachi said:


> Yes, here it is.
> 
> Message from Manila dated August 16.
> Translated into Japanese and reported on August 17, 1945.
> ...


Interesting. I dug around a little bit and came up with a few more things.




NH 81961 Surrender of Japan, 1945
also...
*EXCHANGE OF MESSAGES BETWEEN GENERAL MACARTHUR AND JAPANESE GENERAL HEADQUARTERS ON MANILA MEETING* 
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1945/450815b.html
"
Type and markings of airplanes.

(1) Planes from Manchuria and China are low-winged monoplane, twin engined, middle-size transport of Mitsubishi MC-22 type;

(2) Plane from the south is middle-winged monoplane, twin-engined, middle-sized bomber with cigar-shaped fuselage resembling that of B-26.

(3) Markings are sun-flag with red streamer of four meters length."

any idea what #3 refers to?

and one modeler's take on the planes. No idea how he arrived at the colors.
Mitsubishi G4M1 Betty Bomber "Bataan 2" - Model Aces

the final fate of the two birds.
R. Lee Ermeys MAIL CALL Forum • View topic - Surrender Flight [ Guest ]
World War II Ends in the Pacific
the second describes a fuel tank leak.

Be interested in what you think.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## GrauGeist (Dec 12, 2018)

Ok, I grabbed the photo from post #61 and ran it through my photograph editor.

The color balance, according to the histogram, was was high in the red and blue range with the green range being about average.
The blue in the US roundel is dark, but close to correct, the khaki uniforms look right. You can see just a bit of the Hinomaru's red showing through the white paint and the Japanese officer's uniforms are showing the dark green issue.

Also, in running the "eye dropper" over the black crosses, it was virtually consistent with a black range with literally no hint at a green majority. If anything, the crosses had a higher red content, but this was due to the photo's red and blue content.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
1 | Winner Winner:
1 | Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Shinpachi (Dec 12, 2018)

Tieleader said:


> (3) Markings are sun-flag with red streamer of four meters length."
> 
> any idea what #3 refers to?



I understand like this

Reactions: Like Like:
3 | Like List reactions


----------



## Tieleader (Dec 12, 2018)

Interesting take. Don't see any of the streamers in the photos whilst being escorted by the B-25s and P-38s. Wonder if they were dropped after the escort picked them up?


----------



## Shinpachi (Dec 12, 2018)

Tieleader said:


> Type and markings of airplanes.
> (1) Planes from Manchuria and China are low-winged monoplane, twin engined, middle-size transport of Mitsubishi MC-22 type;
> (2) Plane from the south is middle-winged monoplane, twin-engined, middle-sized bomber with cigar-shaped fuselage resembling that of B-26.
> (3) Markings are sun-flag with red streamer of four meters length."



These were noticed by the Japanese side to Gen. MacArthur in Manila.
Had nothing to do with the Ie shima mission.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Shinpachi (Dec 12, 2018)

I should have added this fact much earlier -
What the Japanese side was afraid most was the friendly fire as the war was not over yet.
In this sense, "black" would have been safer than green for the crosses as the Japanese thought the Germans were still friends.

Reactions: Bacon Bacon:
1 | Agree Agree:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Tieleader (Dec 12, 2018)

Shinpachi said:


> I should have added this fact much earlier -
> What the Japanese side was afraid most was the friendly fire as the war was not over yet.
> In this sense, "black" would have been safer than green for the crosses as the Japanese thought the Germans were still friends.


Thanks for the info!

Reactions: Friendly Friendly:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## fubar57 (Dec 13, 2018)

Something may or may not be in here. Against camp policy to download so I'll just post the link and you can download the PDF. 245 pages entitled, "Surrender and Occupation of Japan and Korea" dated 1946...https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a438971.pdf

Reactions: Winner Winner:
1 | Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## fubar57 (Dec 14, 2018)

Eye witness account https://ehistory.osu.edu/sites/ehis...l/Harold-Montgomery-Photo-Album-rev072817.pdf

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## fubar57 (Dec 14, 2018)

Last one before work, communique from MacArthur include. http://www.veteransresources.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Mil-Hist-WWII-Green-Cross-Flights.pdf

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## special ed (Dec 14, 2018)

I just went back through the thread photos because in the early ones I thought I had seen an African American with a camera around the Japanese delegation. and thought it unusual. With fubar's link to the Harold Montgomery data, I thought I could spot him. With black and white film and sun tans, they all look the same. Mr. Montgomery shot the same aircraft in the area, specifically the P-61 and the B-17 dumbo, although mistaking the type. He was after all a file clerk in an engineering unit, not an aviation buff.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Gnomey (Dec 14, 2018)

Good stuff guys!


----------



## Tieleader (Dec 17, 2018)

So I asked a professional photographer I know his opinion on the green/black cross theory. After looking at the pix he sent me this:
I may have finally found an answer. I tripped across this link during lunch today … http://worldwartwo.filminspector.com/

Part of what I have been looking for is the exact shade of green that was required – a sort of World War II equivalent of today’s Pantone color numbers. I have, for instance, a half-dozen specified colors of green documented for PT boats used in the South Pacific. In this instance, given the circumstances and the timing in those days immediately following August 14th, that is likely a fool’s errand. Since the other colors in the photographs appear to be within a range of normalcy, this may be as close as we ever get.

If the green paint used was sufficiently dark, it may have registered on the film of the day as black.
So the debate goes on...

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## fubar57 (Dec 17, 2018)

I just look at the communique from MacArthur and wonder who would have the balls to go against his order...


----------



## Shinpachi (Dec 17, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> I just look at the communique from MacArthur and wonder who would have the balls to go against his order...
> 
> View attachment 522292​



That was "Gunrei-bu (軍令部 = The Naval General Staff Office )".

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## fubar57 (Feb 13, 2019)

Great site with many photos I haven't seen before including eye witnesses...Fwd: Photos of Japanese Surrender Planes in WWII - The Phoenix Pilot Group (Scottsdale, AZ) | Meetup

From a letter by Army combat engineer Leigh Robertson





​

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Wurger (Feb 13, 2019)




----------

