# German guided bombs



## Erich (Mar 29, 2005)

Guys have we started a thread on this yet ? maybe some interesting debate will develop. heres a short article and some links to get us in the chatting mood...
Several new German weapons made their debuts during SHINGLE. The "Fritz X" guided missile had already been introduced during the Salerno campaign but it was now being used more extensively. This rokket was primarily an anti-ship weapon. In a sense, it was the precursor of today's cruise missile. It had fins so it was designed to glide rather than drop and was radio-controlled from the launching aircraft. Fritz had an armor-piercing warhead with 320 kilograms of amatol, which surrounded a set of central explosive tubes. It had a range of nearly four miles and a speed of 600 mph. But the radio-controlling feature which made it so effective turned out to be its Achilles heel. Its reliability depended on a radio beam, but this could be detected and jammed. The U.S. and British navies quickly equipped three destroyer escorts with jamming devices and the early-warning equipment was so efficient that it could detect the German bombers on the runway just outside of Rome before their takeoff. Then a desperate game of cat-and-mouse ensued, with the bomber pilot trying to keep his glider bomb on target while the destroyermen fought to stay on the beam to direct the bomb away from the target. They weren't always successful. On 23 January a bomb evaded the defenses and hit the British destroyer JANUS. She went down in 20 minutes with the loss of her captain and over 150 men." 

"The next day, as the fleet passed through the Straits of Bonafacio, which separate Corsica from Sardinia, it was attacked by 11 Do-217s Fritz-X glide bombs. The bombers concentrated their attacks on the large modern battleships ROMA and ITALIA. The ROMA was hit twice, bringing it dead in the water while fires raged below decks. Twenty minutes after the first hit, the fires reached the ROMA's magazines, the resulting explosion breaking the ship in half. It folded up and sank with most of her crew. The ITALIA was hit by a single Fritz-X, but although the battleship took on water, it managed to limp to Malta. " 

http://www.vectorsite.net/twbomb3.html 

"That same day, the Allies landed on the beach at Salerno to begin their movement into Italy. The Luftwaffe responded with a week of glide bomb attacks, badly damaging the battleship HMS WARSPITE, the cruisers HMS UGANDA and the USS SAVANNAH, and sinking or damaging several other lesser vessels. The WARSPITE was hit by three Fritz-X bombs, one of which penetrated six decks and blew a hole in the ship's bottom. The ship took on a good deal of water and was completely disabled, but fires didn't break out and casualties were only 9 dead and 14 wounded, blessedly light for so devastating an attack. The battleship was towed away and did not return to action until June 1944. " 


Conclusion. 

"A translation of a Luftwaffe report on the operational use of guided missiles by KG 100 listed a total of 65 operations with 487 aircraft (both Fritz X and Hs.293). A total of 500 rounds were carried, but a number were lost with their aircraft, or returned to base. At the target, 319 bombs were dropped, of which 215 correctly functioned, with a 49.3% hit rate. " 

"In all, 79 enemy naval units, including 40 warships and 39 merchant ships of a gross registered tonnage of 291,000 tons were either partially or totally put out of action, for the loss of 48 aircraft. " 

"The greatest proportion of lost operations was due to unfavourable conditions at the target, with technical failures much lower (only 7.5% due to trouble with the remote control system)." 

"Luftwaffe operations with the Hs.293 at the beginning of the campaign were successful due to two main factors. Firstly the crews were well trained and experienced. Secondly, the weapon was novel and the allies were not prepared with counter measures. With attrition of the longer term bomber crews the success rate fell. However, the effect of allied fighter superiority had a large effect on weapon accuracy. Daylight fighter superiority forced the bombers to fly at night making the effective identification of targets and accurate tracking of the weapons very difficult. In addition the presence of fighters must have made it difficult for the bombers to keep a steady course for the bomb aimers to keep the missiles in view all the way to the target. " 

"The Luftwaffe was also very lax in not testing the frequency band of the control signals of the missiles for jamming signals. Once launched, jammed missiles would appear to the operator to launch and fly towards the target but the reason for failing to impact accurately might not be apparant, and it seems from the report that the Luftwaffe had no idea that the control signals were not being received. " 

"The Luftwaffe was critical of the choice of target and the choice of operational conditions which made the weapon less effective. Developments were in hand to improve the motor of the Hs.293 giving it more power, making it faster to target, and improvements in control systems were appearing all the time - but arrived too late for the Hs.293 to make any further operational impact." 

http://www.walter-rockets.i12.com/missiles/hs293b.htm 

"The success of the Allies in jamming the Kehl-Strassburg system led to the "Hs-293B", which featured the "Dortmund-Duisburg" wire guidance system. The Hs-293B had a range of range of 30 kilometers (19 miles), with wire spooling out from both the bomb and the launch aircraft. 200 Hs-293Bs were rebuilt from Hs-293A production, and were used in limited numbers in the Mediterranean by bombers flying from northern Italy at the end of the war. 
Hitler had ordered that the glide bombs not be used against land targets, in fear that the Allies might be able to recover a dud and learn the secrets of the technology. With the Allies closing in, the order was lifted, and in April 1945, Hs-293Bs were used on attacks on bridges over the river Oder in hopes of slowing down the Soviet advance on Berlin."


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## Udet (Mar 31, 2005)

Very great info Erich.

Wait for RG to show up and tell the USA had "superior" missiles being designed and nearly ready to roll off production lines, but that the yanks "decided" not to use them for the war could be easily won with what they had already available.


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## hellmaker (Apr 1, 2005)

Interesting facts... The germans always were great minds... They probably had the most inventions during the war time period...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 2, 2005)

but they didn't have the ability to get most of them to work.........


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## Holedigger (Jul 4, 2007)

I am working on an illustration of the attack of the Roma with the Fritz-X. Have relly had a hard time with solid information. If anyone has more specific inf it would be greatly appreciated. Here goes what I have
Aircraft used: 11, 12 or 15 Do217s, possibly 217 E2
fromIII Gruppe, KG100, launched from Marsigilia
Second wave of AC scored hits, first wave missed.
Off west coast of Corsica heading to Malta when attacked.
3-Battleships, 3-Cruisers, 8-destroyers in Battle Group

Looking for unit AC Markings/paint schemes
Heigth attack took place from, how many AC in second wave
Italian Fleet sailing order of battle, how did they line them up?
How close to shore were they when Roma was fatally hit?

Thanks for any help or links


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## Holedigger (Jul 4, 2007)

As to the US, they had a few radio controled bomb drones used to fairly good effect in the South Pacific. Also a radar guided glide bomb, the Bat, not so effective as it tended to get lost in ground clutter. Worked OK if ship was out in the open away from anything that might distract the radar.


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## JoeB (Jul 4, 2007)

Holedigger said:


> As to the US, they had a few radio controled bomb drones used to fairly good effect in the South Pacific.


Was radio controlled but transmitted a TV picture to the controller (like current data-link TV guided weapons), unlike the German bombs where the operator manually commanded the bomb to his line of sight (like 1960's vintage anti-tank missiles except radio not wire command in most of the German bombs). So in fact the US did produce conceptually more advanced air-ground guided weapons, that saw actual combat, than the Germans did, but the Germans produced pretty advanced ones earlier.

Price in "History of Electronic Warfare Vol 1" quotes a first hand German source as saying about 1/2 of Hs.293's in his unit in France were eventually found to have been sabotaged in a sophisticated way: internal wires were nearly severed, not obviously cut, but would come apart under the vibration of flight. It was not determined, this source said, when and by whom this had been done. That's in contrast to the reliability numbers quoted above, but Price is generally a reliable author.

Another question re: the quotes above is whether the Germans realized the Allies were using ECM against the bombs. Again Price says they did not, at least until quite late. As stated counter-bomb ECM was only fitted to 2 US DE's (source above say 3 "US and British ships") until well into 1944. Price gives the example of the attack on convoy KMF26 off Algeria Nov 26, 1943. The two ECM equipped DE's, Davies and Jones, were present but still KG40's attack with radio bombs sank the transport Rohna, with one of the heaviest losses of life on an Allied ship during the war. OTOH KG40 lost 6 of 21 He-177's to Allied fighters and others were damaged and/or had to jettison their bombs. This loss of control of the air and therefore unsustainable % bomber losses was the main reason the radio bomb attacks ultimately failed in 43-early '44. Later on the Allies had a lot more jammers (and even more complete control of the air).

Joe


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## Snautzer01 (Jul 5, 2007)

Holedigger said:


> I am working on an illustration of the attack of the Roma with the Fritz-X. Have relly had a hard time with solid information. If anyone has more specific inf it would be greatly appreciated. Here goes what I have
> Aircraft used: 11, 12 or 15 Do217s, possibly 217 E2
> fromIII Gruppe, KG100, launched from Marsigilia
> Second wave of AC scored hits, first wave missed.
> ...



Story


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## Snautzer01 (Jul 5, 2007)

paintjob


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## HoHun (Jul 5, 2007)

Hi Joe,

>Was radio controlled but transmitted a TV picture to the controller (like current data-link TV guided weapons), unlike the German bombs where the operator manually commanded the bomb to his line of sight (like 1960's vintage anti-tank missiles except radio not wire command in most of the German bombs). 

According to Brian Johnson's "The Secret War" (published by the BBC in parallel to the TV programme of the same title), the Hs 293D was developed for TV control, featuring a small video camera in the nose which provided a 224-line video picture. The camera fit into a 17 x 17 x 40 cm^3 box and required 29 vacuum tubes - which apparently was a surprisingly low number.

I don't know if the TV-guided version of the Hs 293 ever saw operational use, though. Quite a number of these cameras seems to have survived WW2, and I have heard that after the war, the post-war TV stations in German happily used these "military" cameras for their broadcasts whenever they could find them. (It was difficult to get any equipment at all, and even more difficult to get "high technology" gear.)

Fascinating that the US had developed a TV-guided bomb, too - I had only been aware of the RAZON line before, which seemed considerably less sophisticated than their German counterparts. Do you have any details? I'd love to learn more!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


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## Holedigger (Jul 5, 2007)

IIRC the US versions with the TV remote fell into 3 groups.
1-Glide bombs similar to the German Fritz-X
2- Small twin engined RC AC fitted with a 500 Lb bomb
3-Old tired bombers, B-17s, B-24s Rigged out with RC gear and camera. It was in one of these that Joe Kennedy, Pres. JF Kennedy's brother was killed. Crew lifted off the AC, armed the bombload, then bailed out letting the chase plane take it to target.


Thanks Snautzer for the pics, what mag/book is the story one from?

Here is a cartoon rough out of the FritzX /Roma project I am starting on. Probably have the AC far too low, but I wanted to be able to see the ships in the image, I believe the normal attack altitude was 20,000 feet


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## filnorm (Jul 8, 2007)

Hs 323s may have been present at the airdrome in Cheb, Czechoslovakia, as well one of pilots of the 368th Fighter Group claimed a Do 217 carrying a missile under wings (he identified it as V-1).
Regards, Filip


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## Snautzer01 (Jul 10, 2007)

Holedigger said:


> Thanks Snautzer for the pics, what mag/book is the story one from?



Magazine is "Profile Publications - Dornier Do 217".

New pic i posted is from "Luftwaffe bomber aces - Greenhill Books London"


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## T4.H (Jul 10, 2007)

Snautzer: This is a flight pass of a HS 293!
For the Fritz you have to fly over the target.

HS293 D was TV guided. It did not get on duty till to the end of the war.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqXKnlnJqjc_


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## Snautzer01 (Jul 10, 2007)

quite right

this was supposed to be the pic


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## johnbr (Jul 10, 2007)

They also look at tv guided for the fritz x it was to be wire guided so the tv would go up the wire.


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## T4.H (Jul 13, 2007)

I fear, it wouldn' t work.

I don't think tat it is possible (or reliable) to guide a bomb, startet from a plane, by wire.
To guide a bomb or rocket by wire, you need a stable and not a moving platform.


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## proudflesh (Jun 27, 2012)

If any of you out there know, do me a favor and clue me in at: [email protected] 

thanks!


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## GrauGeist (Jun 27, 2012)

Looks like an L10 "gliding" Torpedo being released from He177A-5/V32


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## Capt. Vick (Jun 27, 2012)

A tiny bit off the subject, but does anyone have OPERATIONAL pictures of the few stripped-down Do 317's that were supposedly issued to an operational glide bomb/missile squadron when production was cancelled after a few prototypes?


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## davebender (Jun 27, 2012)

A bit off topic but....
Warnepieces: Guided missiles - World War One style. Germany's Torpedo Gliders
The German Naval Air Service had an extensive program for development of wire guided glide torpedoes during WWI. The program began during October 1914 and conducted 75 test flights by the summer of 1917. Anton Flettner (i.e. helicopter designer) was involved in this program while working for Zeppelin.


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## delcyros (Jul 1, 2012)

I was wondering how long it would take in this thread for someone to point on the ww1 vinatge wire guided bombs. These were to be dropped from larger platforms (Zeppelins, each carrying two and three respectively, put under navy command in 1918) than ww2 guided bombs but they were accepted for service in 1918.


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## davebender (Jul 1, 2012)

It's my understanding the last Zeppelin bomber was intended to carry the new wire guided weapons. That's why it was so big.

Zeppelin-Staaken E-4/20 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Erich (Jul 1, 2012)

much interest now in the Fritz and KG 100 due to the fact that the Romas remains have been found. the attacking force of III. gruppe were all 11 Do 217 K-2's

good reference and take your time reading ............. Warriors and Wizards


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## davebender (Jul 1, 2012)

How deep is the water in that area?


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## Milosh (Jul 1, 2012)

davebender said:


> How deep is the water in that area?



Wiki
The sunken vessel was found in June 2012 by the underwater robot 'Pluto Palla,' designed by Italian engineer Guido Gay. It was discovered about 30 kilometers off the northern coast of Sardinia at a depth of around 1000 meters (3,300 ft).


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## davebender (Jul 1, 2012)

I didn't realize the Med was that deep.


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## Milosh (Jul 1, 2012)

davebender said:


> I didn't realize the Med was that deep.



Average depth 1,500 m (4,900 ft)
Max depth 5,267 m (17,280 ft)


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## bobbysocks (Jul 2, 2012)

i saw this as a documentry or a segement in one not too long ago. from what i remember 2 italian ships were going to surrender and the LW went out to sink them using these wire guided missles. the claim was one of the missles went downthe stack of the one ship and the second took damage but got away. they showed how they guided the bomb to the target...will see if i can find the eposide/show.


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## davebender (Jul 2, 2012)

That's no more likely then a Japanese bomb going down the stack of U.S.S. Arizona but it seems to be a favorite statement of Allied press officers whenever a warship gets sunk by bombs.


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## Erich (Jul 2, 2012)

stories come in mythical proportions sometimes. most likely the Roma when hit by two different Fritz-X's and the Italia heavily damaged by a Fritz-X hit. III./KG 100 "Wiking" was incredibly successful on the September 9th ? 43 date but I do wonder why other Italien ships were not attacked a dn not damged in the operation of the twso waves of the gruppe of Do 217K-2's.

on the first page there is a scan of an Hew 177 dropping a Fritz X probably on the course of some 60 degree plus angle


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## davebender (Jul 2, 2012)

Maybe someone in the Luftwaffe had an attack of common sense.

Germany needed to defeat the Salerno invasion. That means sinking troop transports and Allied warships supporting the invasion with shore bombardment. The Luftwaffe didn't have many maritime attack aircraft and couldn't afford to waste them conducting attacks that contributed nothing to the German war effort.


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## bobbysocks (Jul 2, 2012)

lol...i am just repeating what the documentry said....i am sure they would not embellish the truth...cough! cough! i will dig for that video.... i cant remember..did it have a camera in the nose. from the images the bomber looked through a small eye piece while using a joystick to guide it.


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## Erich (Jul 2, 2012)

D ~ actually at least two flares were dropped as markers before the Fritz-X was dropped itself. as for few maritime craft yes almost nil on any LW fighter escorts, LW bomber units and recon had to fly solos and of course paid heavily in craft and lives. The Salerno like the Anzio operation was not fully contested with the LW and in fact it was more like spitting in the wind with few success either by conventional bombing or the newer deadly Fritz and Hs 293 missiles.

in reality the operation against the Italien fleet was not pursued in any depth the Italien fleet was in the bag easily enough had the LW craft been available and the attacks carried out with aggressiveness. you can easily imagine an almost Pearl Harbor like destructiveness happening there were no Allied escorts about and only Italien AA.


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## Shortround6 (Jul 2, 2012)

davebender said:


> Maybe someone in the Luftwaffe had an attack of common sense.
> 
> Germany needed to defeat the Salerno invasion. That means sinking troop transports and Allied warships supporting the invasion with shore bombardment. The Luftwaffe didn't have many maritime attack aircraft and couldn't afford to waste them conducting attacks that contributed nothing to the German war effort.



Italian Battleships ( and Cruisers) were future shore bombardment ships. 

According to Wiki (not the best source?) The German planes flew from the south of France. It is about 300 miles from the Strait of Bonifacio to Salerno. From one of the German bases it may have been a 1700-1800KM round trip to Salerno.


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## Erich (Jul 2, 2012)

shortrounds what units is wiki providing from the LW with the France statements ?

II./KG 100 was based at : Istres 

III./KG 100 was based at : Istres as well


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## Shortround6 (Jul 2, 2012)

Istres is 60KM north west of Marseille. That should be the south of France??


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## davebender (Jul 3, 2012)

The future doesn't matter during an enemy amphibious invasion. You need to destroy the immediate threat. Ideally that means sinking troop transports before they get a chance to unload. Each AP sunk = one infantry battalion destroyed. Sink enough and the invasion lacks the strength to overpower the defenders. That's the grim calculus of war.


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## Erich (Jul 3, 2012)

Shortrounds yes the mention repeatedly of KG 100's Dornier's flying in the are of Bay of Biscay so right on the monies .....

Dave the LW units taking part or lets say B. Jope in a secret meeting was told by the LW hierarchy to go after all Italien shipping just not the big boyz battleships, the fear as mentioned of the ships unscathed and then used as possible raiders/shore bombardments had the Lw general staff reeling where as you pointed out alal Lw units should of plummeted the areas of the landings at Salerno and Anzio and any other water to land assault gone in by the Allies. A huge missed opportunity.


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## davebender (Jul 3, 2012)

Here's a bigger missed opportunity.

At least four He-111 Kampfgeschwader supported the German offensive at Kursk. That aircraft is marginal for CAS but it's an excellent torpedo bomber. Retrain the crews for maritime attack and throw them en mass against the Allied invasion of Sicily. APs (assault transports) and LSTs (Landing Ship Tank) are the only acceptable targets. Aircrew will specifically refrain from attacking warships.


Evening. 9 July 1943. Operation Husky Command Center. Malta.
“Eisenhower reviewed his options, lighting one damp cigarette from another. Staff officers calculated that if the invasion were postponed, two to three weeks would be needed to remount it. No doubt by then the enemy would be alert, and perhaps was already: the fighter control room inside the bastion reported a German reconnaissance plane near the fleet at 4:30 pm and another at 7:30.”
Excerpt from “The Day of Battle” by Rick Atkinson.

About midnight. 10 July 1943. Gulf of Gela.
226 C-47s carrying U.S. 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment are fired upon by American troop transports and their naval escort. 23 aircraft are shot down before USN leaders regain control over AA gunners. As a result of this incident AA gunners are forbidden to shoot at aircraft until further notice.

About 0100. 10 July 1943. Gulf of Gela (Sicily).
Troop transports assigned to U.S. 7th Army anchor and begin to lower landing craft.

30 minutes later….
Four He-111 maritime attack Kampfgeschwader strike the anchored troop transports en mass using a combination of torpedoes and skip bombing. Thanks partly to confusion from firing on U.S. transport aircraft an hour earlier no AA guns open fire until the first assault transport blows up. U.S. 7th Army (Gen. Patton commanding) is destroyed before it can get ashore.


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## Juha (Jul 3, 2012)

DB
another piece of daydreaming, from where the He 111s would have coming, are you sure that USAAF heavy bombers would not have bombed those packed up a/fs where the Hes were based before the invasion?

Juha


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## davebender (Jul 3, 2012)

It worked at Taranto.
It worked at Pearl Harbor.
It worked at Bari.

With luck it could work during Operation Husky also.


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## Juha (Jul 3, 2012)

Hello Dave
a couple facts
LW and WM generally believed schwerpunkt 
what was the main front for Germany in 43?
what was the main offensive of WM in summer 43?
what was the main bomber used in effort to try to hinder Soviet built-up in Kursk Bulge before the Oper Zitadel?
And besides that, what was the bomber used in the only "sustained" strategic effort against Soviet armament industry by LW?

And you think that LW would have scrapped both of the 2 latter points for the possibility of having exceptional luck in timing of one massive torpedo attack in to them a secondary front? and after all LW had already a torpedo KG, namely KG 26, happened it attack just at the right moment? Some historical analyze, please.

Juha


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## davebender (Jul 3, 2012)

*CasablancaConference* 12 February 1943
The Avalon Project : CASABLANCA CONFERENCE 1943


> the only terms on which we shall deal with an Axis government or any Axis factions are the terms proclaimed at Casablanca: "Unconditional Surrender."


The "Unconditional Surrender" plank was inserted by President FDR. Perhaps the destruction of U.S. 7th Army at Sicily would convince American leadership they should consider negotiation. 

1943 Germany has nothing to lose. They cannot defeat a Soviet invasion of Central Europe as long as the Soviet Union receives virtually unlimited economic support from the USA.


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## Shortround6 (Jul 3, 2012)

davebender said:


> It worked at Taranto.
> It worked at Pearl Harbor.
> It worked at Bari.
> 
> With luck it could work during Operation Husky also.



With an incredible amount of luck. And with an incredible amount of foreknowledge. How many Months to retrain those bomber crews to be torpedo bombers? Start training before the Sicily invasion? to DEPEND on the Allied AA gunners not firing?


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## Milosh (Jul 3, 2012)

Allied ships shot down many of their own a/c and db thinks the Lw could have been lucky?


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## Juha (Jul 3, 2012)

Hello Dave
you are really daydreaming
firstly, the shooting down of allied cargo planes happened on the night 11/12 July, when the seaborne landing had happened very early on 10 July, so allied had had 2 days to disembark their troops from the troops transports!!!
secondly, according to Hooton's Eagle in Flames waters off the invasion beaches were too shallow for convetional torpedo attacks so LW torpedo bombers had to use circling torpedos, so all that special training and all the lost opportunies that followed from withdrawal of those 4 KGn for training were vain. Of course if the LW had done what you have suggested we would now have a thread "A Huge Missed Opportunity" on how, if Germans had used those 4 KGn reserved for massive torpedo attack would have been used to execute strategic offensive against Soviet armament industry and then to stop Soviet reinforcements for reaching the Kursk Bulge, the victorious panzers would have been able to rout Red Army and then to drive to Moscow 

Juha


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## Erich (Jul 3, 2012)

the LW should of been more wise in taking the 4 KG Geschwader and plastering the Italien fleet


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## davebender (Jul 4, 2012)

Then they will employ skip bombing. That appears to have been the Luftwaffe preferred maritime attack method anyway.

Frankly I don't understand why the Luftwaffe didn't do this during 1942. A relatively small number of maritime attack aircraft caused a great deal of trouble for PQ convoys heading to the White Sea. A couple full strength KG stationed in Northern Norway might completely closed the Northern convoy route to the Soviet Union.


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## Milosh (Jul 4, 2012)

davebender said:


> Then they will employ skip bombing. That appears to have been the Luftwaffe preferred maritime attack method anyway.
> 
> Frankly I don't understand why the Luftwaffe didn't do this during 1942. A relatively small number of maritime attack aircraft caused a great deal of trouble for PQ convoys heading to the White Sea. A couple full strength KG stationed in Northern Norway might completely closed the Northern convoy route to the Soviet Union.



New routes would have been used.

Wiki
The Arctic route was the shortest and most direct route for lend-lease aid to the USSR, though it was also the most dangerous. Some 3,964,000 tons of goods were shipped by the Arctic route; 7% was lost, while 93% arrived safely.[6] This constituted some 23% of the total aid to the USSR during the war.

Other routes used for the passage of goods were the Persian Corridor and the Pacific Route.

The Persian corridor was the longest route, and was not fully operational until mid 1942. Thereafter it saw the passage of 4,160,000 tons of goods, 27% of the total.[6]

The Pacific route opened in August 1941, but was affected by the start of hostilities between Japan and the US; after December 1941, only Soviet ships could be used, and, as Japan and the USSR observed a strict neutrality towards each other, only non-military goods could be transported.[7] Nevertheless, 8,244, 000 tons of goods went by this route, 50% of the total. [6]

..........................

Where were these 2 full strength KG to come from?


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## davebender (Jul 4, 2012)

Easier said then done.

The best routes are via the Baltic and Black Sea. Those are out.

The rail line to Vladivostok was single track. The Soviet Union poured considerable resources into this line but a single track several thousand miles in length cannot be further expanded. They would need to double the track, which takes years even with unlimited resources.

The Persian Gulf route required a huge effort. The Soviet Union and Britain had to jointly invade and occupy Iran. Then they had to upgrade port facilities, RR rolling stock, ferries across the Caspian Sea etc. Cargo throughput of this route cannot be easily expanded. Building new rail lines or doubling existing tracks requires that a bunch of tunnels and bridges be expanded.

And then there's Turkey.
Historically PM Churchill expended considerable resources in a fruitless effort to get Turkey as a military ally. If the White Sea convoy route is closed Britain and the USA may consider invasion. Opening the Dardanelles would make all other Lend-Lease routes to the Soviet Union unnecessary. But first you need to win Gallipoli II and you know Turkey would get German assistance.


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## Shortround6 (Jul 4, 2012)

Opening the Dardanelles would be almost useless. Even with Turkey as an ally with the Axis in Greece and Bulgaria the Aegean sea is going to be too contested to send supply convoys through. Once through in the black sea were do you go? What ports do the Russians have in the Black Sea that are not under German control or with in easy reach of German air power? 

It may be easier to build railroad track that port facilities. Docks, dredged harbors, Cranes, etc. 

More aircraft in Norway would not have closed the arctic route. Slowed it down perhaps. Take a look at a map. A convoy in the Black sea is like shooting fish in a barrel compared to finding and attacking a convoy in the Norwegian and Barents seas. 
The White sea is a choke point but is under cover of Land based air. More carrier coverage of the arctic convoys would have allowed them to continue. 

Please remember that for every "stunt" or redeployment of a few groups of planes the Allies can also redeploy a few hundred planes or or a few ships to counter it.


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## Milosh (Jul 4, 2012)

Arctic route - 23% of the total
Persian Gulf route - 27% of the total
Pacific route - 50% of the total 

Where would Germany get the forces from to aid Turkey? Certainly not from the Eastern Front nor the African Front.


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## Erich (Jul 4, 2012)

back to the thread topic gents where do guided bombs come into play here when mentioning of thousands of miles of travel to parts almost unknown and where needed S/E escorts will not be available and bomber KG's are at a premium plus in major jeopardy due to loss of fuel reserves and so far away from needed A/F's and simple watch by Allied land coverage


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## Juha (Jul 4, 2012)

davebender said:


> Then they will employ skip bombing. That appears to have been the Luftwaffe preferred maritime attack method anyway.
> 
> Frankly I don't understand why the Luftwaffe didn't do this during 1942. A relatively small number of maritime attack aircraft caused a great deal of trouble for PQ convoys heading to the White Sea. A couple full strength KG stationed in Northern Norway might completely closed the Northern convoy route to the Soviet Union.



If you look PQ 18 LW lost 24 torpedo bombers, KG-26 - 19 bombers (HE-111/Ju-88 ) Kustenfliegergruppen 406/506/906 - 5 x HE-115 plus 3 Ju 88A bombers, rather too high for LW to long run.

Juha


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## Erich (Jul 4, 2012)

and too bad for the LW Juha this remained consistent on the PQ raids, again no back up escorts and granted many torpedo craft were shot down by Allied ship AA


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## Juha (Jul 4, 2012)

Hello Erich
yes, AA killed most of the torpedobombers lost.

Juha


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## davebender (Jul 4, 2012)

24 ships out of 36 total. More then 142,000 tons in all.
.....Approximately half the damage was by German aircraft. German Navy got the rest.
.....430 tanks lost.
.....210 bomber aircraft lost.
.....3,350 motor vehicles lost.
.....100,000 tons of ammunition lost.

If the Luftwaffe lose 50 or 100 aircraft to accomplish such damage it is still a great victory for Germany. Put a Do-217 KG in Norway equipped with Hs-293 guided weapons and such convoy losses might become routine.


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## Juha (Jul 4, 2012)

Hello Dave
PQ 17 was a special case because most of the losses happened after the convoy was dispersed and escorts withdrawn, and LW had nothing to do with that decision, and many of the losses were sunk by U-boats. And after initial successes Hs 293 was not overly successful against convoys at Biscays IIRC.

Juha


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## Shortround6 (Jul 4, 2012)

PQ 17 was in June of 1942. First operational use (success?) of the Hs 293 was August 1943. 

How many more carriers did the Allies have in Aug/Sept of 1943 than in the summer of 1942? Even F4F wildcats would make short work of missile carrying bombers.


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## Milosh (Jul 5, 2012)

S6 only a few months later:

Wiki

_Convoy PQ18 departed Loch Ewe, Scotland on 2 September 1942 and arrived in Arkhangelsk on 21 September 1942.

The convoy consisted of forty merchant ships (11 British, 20 US, six Soviet and three Panamanian) and four Fleet auxiliaries; two oilers, a rescue ship and a CAM ship.

Close escort was provided by a force led by Cdr.AB Russell, in the destroyer Malcolm. The force comprised two other destroyers Achates and Amazon, two anti-aircraft "gunships", four Flower class corvettes, four A/S trawlers and three minesweepers. *The escort was supported by a Carrier group* (the escort carrier Avenger and her accompanying destroyers), and a "Fighting Destroyer Escort" of 16 Fleet destroyers commanded by Rear Adm. Robert Burnett in the cruiser Scylla. The escort was augmented by local escort forces from Britain to Iceland (Campbell and six other destroyers, and 5 trawlers) and from Murmansk (four Soviet destroyers and three minesweepers).

PQ 18 was seen as a success by the Allies. Thirteen ships had been lost (4 by a/c), but 28 had arrived safely, and the Arctic convoy route, which had been suspended since the loss of PQ 17, had been re-established. Furthermore, three U-boats had been destroyed, and 40 German aircraft had been shot down.

Whilst the Germans could be pleased with the losses inflicted, they had failed to stop the convoy getting through, and their own losses, particularly in trained pilots, were severe, denting the ability of the Luftwaffe to hinder future convoys. The German surface force had also been powerless to interfere, and it’s next venture, against JW 51B would be a debacle._

The Germans lost the equivalent of a Gruppe. Germany didn't have the resources to sustain these kinds of losses.

Convoy data base, Arnold Hague Convoy Database


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## Erich (Jul 5, 2012)

one of the probs we have discussed gents many times was the working capabilities of the KM and LW together only on a very few operations did this even exist at all between the U-Boot arm and the LW recon/Bomber force where they could work side by side and not just radio one another with foggy co-ordinates of supposed Allied ship lanes. there was just not enough long range LW units to engage over such a wide ocean space.


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## Shortround6 (Jul 5, 2012)

Milosh said:


> The Germans lost the equivalent of a Gruppe. Germany didn't have the resources to sustain these kinds of losses.
> 
> Convoy data base, Arnold Hague Convoy Database



Thank you. The British managed to add 5-6 Attacker class escort carriers by the summer of 1943. I Imagine that had Luftwaffe presence been stronger in the Northern Waters more carriers would have been assigned to escort the convoys. There was no real reason for the convoys in good weather (summer) to venture with range of land based fighters leaving the Luftwaffe bombers on their own.


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