# VT gets hit by a loon



## Erich (Apr 16, 2007)

some of you if you are close to a TV in the States may have heard that a gunman -dead- shot at least 25 students dead-29 ?, at least 25 in the hospital and at least 4 in critical. Virginia Techs largest dorm was hit first then the gunman proceeded to the science/lab building and started shooting and then moved on the lat I heard .......

someone I know will of course add with something more current, but even with the media giving glimpses of strange things in the mid-east you know there is going to be much coverage some warped even in covering this tragedy today.

another evil eyeful


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## Gnomey (Apr 16, 2007)

BBC NEWS | Americas | Deadly shooting at US university

 Terrible.


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## v2 (Apr 16, 2007)




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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 16, 2007)

Yeap been following it now for the last few hours.

Right now one channel is saying 22 killed and 29 wounded and another is saying 29 dead and 32 wounded.

Not sure which is accurate.


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## Erich (Apr 16, 2007)

I've heard 32 dead now the lat 10 minutes, it's all confusing as the media coverage is trying to phone interview students who of course only can give their own personal bio of the situ as they saw it......sound like real life don't it ?

it will be a day or 2 before what is know that is gonna be given to the public. also heard the asian that was popped/gunman may not have been alone


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 16, 2007)

I dont think he was alone either. The shootings took place in 2 different locations. Granted they were a few hours apart but still, seems a bit fishy to me.
I pray for the families.


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## Thorlifter (Apr 16, 2007)

There will be a lot of families getting very sad phone calls today.


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## Erich (Apr 16, 2007)

without a doubt. Remember Columbine ? 3 loose cannons of little boys trying to big thugs and were allowed to work on their techniques for too long. that insanity also came this month on the 19th along with the Waco Texas craziness

back to Columbine, my wife and I had quite an interesting weekend 5 months after that tragedy with dad and speaker Darryl Scott who lost a daughter. There is still so much about that Columbine affair that is still hush hush and the families have never been allowed all the true story.

now this thing the same month and 8 years later some clown comes in on a huge campass and the VT author. alert the kids through e-mail that there has been a shooting and another possibilty of one, and instead of immediately closing up class and telling kids to stay put the poor students sit in class while this moron comes room to room and sprays people............... then and only then does VT authorities tell kids to stay in their rooms and away from their windows as there is a shooter about.

Granted there is so much and it is too early too tell all of the events but I wonder again about people in charge if they have a sense of brain power


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## timshatz (Apr 16, 2007)

From what I've heard, the first shooting was at 7:15 am in the dorms. Then there was another blizzard of shootings across campus two hours later. All pretty confused but evidently it was some dude with a 9mm and .22. Seems like he did an enormous amount of damage with two pistols. 32 dead?

This thing is really odd. Early reports just don't add up. Bu then again, they never do.

Also very sad.


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 16, 2007)

Erich said:


> Remember Columbine ?


I live about 15 minutes from where it happened, my sister in laws are about 5 minutes from the school. I get a cold chill every time I even drive close to the place...


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## lesofprimus (Apr 16, 2007)

Too many people dead for one shooter.... Gotta be an accomplice somewhere...

Either that or the bastard was walkin around with a sh!tload of ammo..


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## comiso90 (Apr 16, 2007)

there is cell phone video footage posted on the BBC site. Several shots in rapid succession were heard. 

The A** hole was on a mission


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## Matt308 (Apr 16, 2007)

Anyone hear that he was looking for his girlfriend (or at least a girl) prior to shooting? Sick MFer. But keep in perspective that you are more likely to be struck my lightening than killed in a school shooting.

Want to do some good in this post tragedy environment? Send some money to the NRA/ILA. The Chucky Schumers and Nancy Pelosis are going to come out of the woodwork demanding your guns. Wait for it.

I will pray for those innocent people and their families. May some good come from this evil.


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## Erich (Apr 16, 2007)

Matt I hear ya about Hillary/Pelosi and their pussie ideas about grabbing "our" guns. C'mon and get it cause I'll cut your guts out ..........

ok that was fun, now to some other stuff. Virgina police have another suspect in custody possibly the 1st shooter, evidently knew one of the two young folk murdered.

man I hate to say this but no school anywhere for students is safe, I keep waiting to hear about something here, and no I am not demented. There are still many unknowns on this thing ...........


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## Matt308 (Apr 16, 2007)

But keep remembering. This is not the norm. What is interesting is the number of recent shootings where the location was a "gun free zone". Gun laws. They work perfectly for those who are law abiding citizens. Wonder how this might have turned out if others on campus were allowed to carry concealed?


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## Screaming Eagle (Apr 17, 2007)

unfortunately, this may not be the last school shooting that takes place


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## Wildcat (Apr 17, 2007)

Very tragic indeed.


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## Heinz (Apr 17, 2007)

Extremely distressing for all involved..........

tragic


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 17, 2007)

We have 2 threads on this running so I brought this over from ther other thread...



FalkeEins said:


> and of course gun control would make it a bit harder than being able to buy an assault rifle over the counter no questions asked....


*WRONG!!!!!!*

One thing Europeans (And other folks) don't understand is that most of the gun violence committed in the US is done so with *illegally purchased or acquired guns. * Assault rifles are not the choice weapon of a criminal in this country as many of them are are bulky and hard to conceal and many of them cannot be bought over the counter in this country as many of them are banned, some by individual states, another myth bought by then rest of the world when US gun laws are scrutinized. 

*The massacre committed yesterday was done with handguns. Whether this nut purchased these guns legally is another story.*

BTW Virginia Tech had regulations about firearms on campus - Students and faculty members are forbidden to bring firearms in the dorms and in the classrooms - that regulation was a big help yesterday. 

The highest gun crime rate in the US is in Washington DC, where the most restrictive gun laws in the nation are. The lowest is in Arizona, with the most permissive gun laws. A direct correlation, maybe, maybe not. In the 1800s most males went armed, and many females. There were still murders, some multiple. The abundance of, or lack of, armed individuals is not a deterrent to one obsessed with this type of action.

For several years screwdrivers have been used for violent attacks more often than knives. Should we restrict or outlaw them? What about base ball bats? There were murders long before firearms, it goes with our species. 

My point is, no amount of laws would have prevented this. One that is intent on murder or any other crime is not deterred by laws. Laws are on the books to keep honest people honest and to punish after the fact. Hindsight is always 20/20. From what I have seen the police reacted with reason as did the University Administration. Some events just can not be altered or controlled. I am sure the lawyers will prey on the victims families and point to scapegoats other than the actual criminal.


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## Matt308 (Apr 17, 2007)

Well said FBJ. Statistics have shown that concealed carry law states have seen their violent crimes go down. As a result, there has been a literal run on states enacting "shall issue" concealed carry gun laws. And now they are saying that this guy was a foreign national. There is another gun law broken.


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## timshatz (Apr 17, 2007)

Here's a link to the a Cell Phone Video on the Campus. Nothing graphic, but unsettling to say the least.

Break.com - Funny Pics, Hot Chicks, Cool Flicks

I don't think the people moving in the vid are the shooter. They seem somewhat oblivious to it all.


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## Matt308 (Apr 17, 2007)

I actually heard our local news caster make this statement.

"School shootings have become a fact of life for most students..."

Liberal, mindless sensationalists. I hate them all.


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## Gnomey (Apr 17, 2007)

Just read whilst browsing that the Westboro' nutjobs are going to protest at the funeral as well...


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## Erich (Apr 17, 2007)

that small cult will protest anything and everything..........fools


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## Gnomey (Apr 17, 2007)

WBC to Preach at Funerals of Virginia Tech Dead

WBC will preach at the funerals of the Virginia Tech students killed on campus during a shooting rampage April 16, 2007. You describe this as monumental horror, but you know nothing of horror -- yet. Your bloody tyrant Bush says he is 'horrified' by it all. You know nothing of horror -- yet. Your true horror is coming. "They shall also gird themselves with sackloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads" (Eze. 7:18 ). 

Why did this happen, you ask? It's simple. Your military chose to shoot at the servants of God today, and all they got for their effort was terror. Then, the LORD your God sent a crazed madman to shoot at your children. Was God asleep while this took place? Was He on vacation? Of course not. He willed this to happen to punish you for assailing His servants.

God Hates America -- Westboro Baptist Church Commentary on the USA


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## Matt308 (Apr 17, 2007)

[heavy sigh...] Free speech and all.


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## Erich (Apr 17, 2007)

I am sickened as a evangelical to see this cult cry on the name of the FATHER. all I can say is this deceiving groups name and their component will be obliterated........... God's wrath is going to come down hard on them

if they were such a loving "Christian" outfit why aren't they giving up their personal time to see the poor families to console and pray with ? ............. 

BECAUsE THEY ARE NOT CHRISTIAN THAT IS WHY ! end of story


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 17, 2007)

I think that Free Speech should be taken away from some like these ****s.


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## Erich (Apr 17, 2007)

sadly these clowns have small children, I would say take them out to Iraq or any spot in the desert and let them wander naked and no water but give the children up to folk that have their heads screwed on right


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 17, 2007)

I just read there FAQ on there website they really are a bunch of shitbags. Nothing more than that. I thought about sending them an email but then realized they are not worth the time of my life.


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## Erich (Apr 17, 2007)

nor do you want to get spammed the rest of your life with "their version" of Christianity


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## renrich (Apr 17, 2007)

Here we go again with all of the left all around the world saying we need more gun control. What do you want to bet that the dems use that as a campaign issue in the coming election. I see where McCain(bless him) has said this does not mean we need more restrictive gun laws. Heard a "criminal profiler" yesterday say that fifty years ago we did not have instances like this take place because there were not as many guns around. The commentator did not challenge her on this but fifty years ago we had not nearly as restrictive gun laws as we do today. So what good have these new gun laws done? A Browning Hi Power was much more available fifty years ago than it is today. Of course much of what you will hear from the media on this subject will either be inaccurate or just a flat out lie.


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## Gnomey (Apr 17, 2007)

BBC NEWS | Americas | Virginia shootings: The victims


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## Erich (Apr 17, 2007)

renrich it started yesterday with the gun law proposals, the foll had a 9mm and a semi0auto .22 with the numbering chisseled off as they were illegal and also being a national he could not legally possess hand arms. so in accordance with registered gun rules he broke at least 2 laws. what good is it to administer more when even these basics will not keep someone demented and troubled from having them, the whole notion that anyone would even re-invent the wheel on this issue is insane


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 17, 2007)

*Here ya go - from a country with really strict Gun Control laws!!!*

Mayor of Japanese city Nagasaki shot By George Nishiyama 
2 hours, 21 minutes ago

TOKYO (Reuters) - The mayor of the Japanese city of Nagasaki was shot and critically wounded on Tuesday, and police have arrested a member of a criminal syndicate as a suspect, officials said. 

Itcho Ito, 61, seeking re-election for a fourth term in Sunday's election, was shot by a man in front of his campaign office just before 8:00 p.m. (1100 GMT), a city official said.

Ito was taken to hospital by ambulance after being shot more than once in the back, Nagasaki police said, adding the mayor was undergoing an operation.

The police told a news conference they had arrested Tetsuya Shiroo, 59, a senior member of gang affiliated with Japan's largest crime syndicate, the Yamaguchi Gumi, on suspicion of attempted murder, and confiscated a revolver he had with him.

The motive for the shooting was unclear, but Shiroo was upset at the city's handling of a traffic accident four years ago in which Shiroo's car was damaged as it passed by a public works construction site, public broadcaster NHK said.

NHK reported that Ito's lungs and heart had stopped functioning, and other TV footage showed the mayor lying face down with his eyes closed as paramedics performed cardiopulmonary resuscitation.

"I hope that the truth be revealed through vigilant investigation by authorities," Kyodo news agency quoted Prime Minister Shinzo Abe as saying after news of the shooting.

*STRICT GUN CONTROL*
Japan has very strict gun control laws and firearms are mostly in the hands of "yakuza" gangsters or hunters.

NHK footage showed police subduing the suspect and putting him in a car. Later, investigators gathered evidence after the shooting while security guards took up posts at the scene.

"It looked as if the mayor was limp on a stretcher. A medic was giving him mouth-to-mouth resuscitation," Kyodo quoted a 22-year-old male university student as saying at the scene.

In 1990, then-mayor Hitoshi Motoshima was shot by a member of a right-wing group after making comments that Emperor Hirohito should be held liable for war responsibilities.

"Whatever the reason, violence cannot be tolerated," Motoshima told a TV program after Ito was shot.

"It's a disgrace for Nagasaki."

Nagasaki, on the southernmost main island of Kyushu, was the second city to suffer an atomic bombing by the United States on August 9, 1945.

Ito had previously been critical of U.S. nuclear arms policies and has been a strong advocate of Japan sticking to its decades-old ban on nuclear arms.

Last year, on the August 9 anniversary of the atomic bombing of the city, Ito criticized North Korea for their nuclear programs and had harsh words for the United States for failing to halt nuclear proliferation.

In October, 2002, lower house member Koki Ishii was stabbed to death by a member of a right-wing group in front of his house in Tokyo, the last known murder of a politician in the country.


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## Matt308 (Apr 17, 2007)

Killer says "You made me do it..."

Rot in Hell Ahole.

[Pics from Drudge]


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## Erich (Apr 17, 2007)

now the bitter question remains here in the states or anywhere else in the world, when will it happen again ? it's too easy and such a cheap shot for those who think they are real men


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## Matt308 (Apr 17, 2007)

Can't stop it, Erich. Like the muslim fundamentalist that mowed down those people with his car here in the states. But then again, that was Bush's fault ofcourse. So probably not a good example.


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## Erich (Apr 17, 2007)

exactamundo Matt ! remember we are home of the free alien, locals can go to hell you are not welcome


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## renrich (Apr 17, 2007)

Good post, flyboy, but you will never see much about that in the media. Many things wrong with gun controls. First, the Constitution of the US. Second, enforcement-remember prohibition, did not work, in fact it brought a new criminal element into being, aren't hard drugs illegal, how long would it take you if you were so inclined, to buy hard drugs? A lot of criminal activity today is based on the procurement and sale of hard drugs. Can you imagine the black market on firearms if the left gets their way on gun control?


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 17, 2007)

Yeah, really sad. Yesterday all they were saying was that the killer was an asian male. Now today they said he was from Korea. I was like which side? Oh, our Allied side. Well, I guess it was just personal. 

but it's interesting how killing effects you differantly. This guy kills 30 people in a grisly, senseless manner and we are shocked because it happened for no reason. 

But if there was a patriotic reason and defending your country, or some soldier managed to pop off 30 terrorists in one go a lot of people would be cheering, including me. And that's a good thing, because they are mass murderers themselves. 

Soldiers are trained to control themselves out of uniform, and are also trained to not target noncombatents. A soldier is also trained to never, never harm his fellow countrymen, for above all things his job is to protect them. 

But what about the enemy civillians? Isn't the obligation and affection to them much less as a soldier? 

Not trying to slam soldiers or military personnel, but in uniform, in a warzone, if a soldier was told to attack a university in Baghadad, NOT a university in the United States, would his training allow or help him to do it? Would his soldier mentality, trained to kill with nerves under control, give him more resolve? Would remorse play a factor? 

I'm not a soldier so I don't know. But I know soldiers are ideally taught to kill with out constraint to themselves, only to orders. 

And that soldiers under battle stress of ALL countries have been more likely than a civilian to kill ENEMY civilians en mass, and it has happened. 

I'm just reflecting on whats makes one kill. I flippantly put up a list of targets in a poll, including the option of "non target city" and "Everythings a target." Thats saying a lot. Basically if I was attacking one of those options in real life, I would probably kill close to 30 enemy civilians, maybe more. And perhaps if I was a soldier, I would actually do it. If video games are any indication, I like playing as a WWII soldier in a game like "Medal of Honor, and I kill more than 30 sims on there. 

I'm not trying to say I'm a soldier and I know that REAL combat is much more REAL. And that a soldier is trained for it, while I am not. I'm a civilian, and hampered by civilian thinking. 

Of course I don't put or think of Veterans and sick people like this Korean murderer the same. I abbhor him for his killings. For one they are senseless and cruel and done on his own fellow students. Even if he was an enemy Korean soldier that did this mass atrocity in war to us it would be better than the way he did it as a mindless, civilian freak. 

But I don't abbhor all killing, if is done in a military way. I like Richard Bong for killing possibly 40 Japanese in aircraft kills, and probably more on the ground during strafing runs. I know some people feel that our Bomber pilots in WWII are murderers for bombing German and Japanese cities, but I don't, even if an individual Bomber can kill more than 30 with it's bombs. Those crews were brave to do what they did and many of them died flying their missions. 

Those German civilians were living in an enemy zone, and they weren't our civilians. Many of them were working to help Hitlers war effort in the factories. 

I know that the Allied Navy and Ground troops in WWII also killed civilians, more often by mistake and not deliberate as the USAF or RAF Personnel did in the firebombings. 

It's grissly what went on in WWII, sure.

But at least I can still honor those veterans of WWII, or the soldiers fighting today, for the killing they did for us and the "Free World." 

Not like the  for that horrid kid that murdered 32 people in VA.


(Why did it give me d-i-s-g-u-s-t in a face?)


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## Erich (Apr 17, 2007)

~ ( ? ) ~ ok man whatever you were trying to say, because I for one am not following. There is no stinking comparison what this oriental ***** did compared to any soldier of the Allies over in the mid-east shooting insurgent scumbags to make a modern comparison


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 17, 2007)

I feel no regrets over our soldiers killing terrorists either. 

I was more wondering if the Us Military generals designated an enemy countries University a target if a US soldiers training would enable him to carry out the mission or not. 

Total War Mentality agains't an enemy country is what I'm talking about. 

We are not fighting our wars right now that way, but if orders were orders would the US Military obey them?

In WWII we did indoctrinate total war agains't the Japanese Cities to save the lives of our military men and of the Japanese, so "Total War" for us has happened before.


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## Erich (Apr 17, 2007)

question: does the university in said sentance create an obstacle/stalemate and a dangerous interference to the US troops with said enemy troops ? is it a legit target ? ... if it is a threat then yes, same as a Mosque though we seem to have this strange feel of a coniption that since it is religious and that we may offend knowing full well the mosque is full of dangerous foe fighting and lobbing rockets, we "have to" shy away from it. Will tell ya for a fact if it is was on our land and a church it would be flattened in a matter of minutes. Ridiculous but true


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 17, 2007)

Like you said, a mosque, university can be a legitimate target.

I wasn't thinking of an enemy university full of terrorists, since that would be a real target. More of university where the civilians inside are aiding the enemy, discussing ways to fight you, and also gathering. Attacking for that, and also maybe to disrupt the enemy workspace and hurt enemy morale could be the reasons. 

And it wouldn't have to be a bloody door to door fight either I guess, since with airstrikes and planes the US can level buildings very quickly, and completely. 

It would certainly be easier as well. 

I have to go do an errand for a while so I won't be on here. I'll answer any questions when I get back. 

I'm sorry if the words I said sound like I'm just slaming military war, since that wasn't my intention. 

This school killing just disturbs a bit, and my reasoning is probably a bit poor.


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## mkloby (Apr 17, 2007)

Amazing... simply amazing...


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## Matt308 (Apr 18, 2007)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> This school killing just disturbs a bit, and my reasoning is probably a bit poor.



I think that was the only thing you said that made any goddamn sense.


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## Erich (Apr 18, 2007)

the twirp was troubled and upon his OWN initiative he went prowling after women, made bomb threats and then created a suicidal environment for himself after he reaped carnage on innocents..........what a poor fool


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## Matt308 (Apr 18, 2007)

And the "gun owner" had been committed in 2005 for some mental disorder. This a series of tragedies that has culminated in too many innocent deaths.


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 18, 2007)

This guy was a time bomb and even if he didn't have access to a firearm he would of killed eventually....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 19, 2007)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> Soldiers are trained to control themselves out of uniform, and are also trained to not target noncombatents. A soldier is also trained to never, never harm his fellow countrymen, for above all things his job is to protect them.
> 
> But what about the enemy civillians? Isn't the obligation and affection to them much less as a soldier?
> 
> ...



No in todays military we are encouraged to think about our actions. Yes we are to allways obey orders but if the order is not morally just you have every right to object to it. You will have to answer for it, but if you are right in your morals you have nothing to fear for questioning that order.

The orders to kills civilians or attack civilian establishments just does not fly. 



Soundbreaker Welch said:


> And that soldiers under battle stress of ALL countries have been more likely than a civilian to kill ENEMY civilians en mass, and it has happened.



Yes it happens but as a whole the majority of Soldiers (atleast in our army) do not stand for this. I know I would have stopped my fellow soldiers from doing so, but then again I did not serve with anyone that would have allowed something like this to happen.


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## Matt308 (Apr 19, 2007)

And that's what separates us from the majority of the world. Hell, we conquer, leave and those defeated become world powers.


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## mkloby (Apr 19, 2007)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> Soldiers are trained to control themselves out of uniform, and are also trained to not target noncombatents. A soldier is also trained to never, never harm his fellow countrymen, for above all things his job is to protect them.
> 
> But what about the enemy civillians? Isn't the obligation and affection to them much less as a soldier?
> 
> ...



I think that's a little bit of a ridiculous post... As Adler said, if an officer gives an order to target civilians, you're OBLIGATED to object, and if not rescinded, to no follow it! I can't just order Marines to kill civilians. US servicemen are not "ideally taught to kill without constraint to themselves, only to orders." That's just false. I'm actually amazed that you could think that.


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## Matt308 (Apr 19, 2007)

mkloby said:


> I'm actually amazed that you could think that.



You are entirely too polite.


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## Glider (Apr 19, 2007)

Gun control doesn't have to be about banning them or stopping people from owning them does it?
Can I ask if you would be against a law that said that each gun had to have its unique gun markings (bullet traces) logged in a database so that weapons used illegally would be easily identified? Or would you be against the fitting of locks on most weapons so that the number of accidents could be reduced?

Banning wouldn't work even if the authorities wanted them to as there are so many in circulation, the genie once out of the bottle, wouldn't go back in no matter how they try.


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 19, 2007)

Glider said:


> Gun control doesn't have to be about banning them or stopping people from owning them does it?


 It doesn't but there are many here who would want it that way for political purposes.



Glider said:


> Can I ask if you would be against a law that said that each gun had to have its unique gun markings (bullet traces) logged in a database so that weapons used illegally would be easily identified? Or would you be against the fitting of locks on most weapons so that the number of accidents could be reduced?


Some States require locks - mine are except for one. As long as the data base cannot be used to consficate from law abiding citizens.


Glider said:


> Banning wouldn't work even if the authorities wanted them to as there are so many in circulation, the genie once out of the bottle, wouldn't go back in no matter how they try.


And in the US its been that way for 231 years.


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## Matt308 (Apr 19, 2007)

Glider said:


> Gun control doesn't have to be about banning them or stopping people from owning them does it?
> Can I ask if you would be against a law that said that each gun had to have its unique gun markings (bullet traces) logged in a database so that weapons used illegally would be easily identified? Or would you be against the fitting of locks on most weapons so that the number of accidents could be reduced?
> 
> Banning wouldn't work even if the authorities wanted them to as there are so many in circulation, the genie once out of the bottle, wouldn't go back in no matter how they try.



 Both of those are either state laws or voluntarily enacted. Next.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 22, 2007)

I think that was the only thing you said that made any goddamn sense.


Yeah, I suppose I sounded like a pacifist or something. Killing instinct in humans probably stems from the survival instinct, but manifests itself in many differant ways, some horrid and some just and some just plain self defence. Saying that just the natural human instinct to kill is the same thing, when it's not. It's governed by the codes and morals in your life.

You are right Adler, of course. If the Military rules you are fighting under are just and protecting the innocent, you have no fear in rejecting violence to non-combatants.

I don't think those in the armed forces are serial killers or gun criminals. I think the military has some of the toughest and sacrificial guys in this country, and that they are serving something outside themselves, their home and country.

I probably would have liked the average Nazi Wehrmacht soldier better than these school killers, regardless of the mad cause they were serving.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 22, 2007)

I still dont get what you were trying to compare the two for though. It made no sense to me.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 22, 2007)

Killing instinct. 

But humans aren't animals, I realize that and much more complex in our actions. 

We reason and can justly or unjustly ration out death to other men.


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## Matt308 (Apr 22, 2007)

Phew. SW, I'm really having a hard time with your logic flow. It's like you are speaking in incomplete sentences. Are you attempting to say that Man is an enigma because we impose morality and law to prevent/avoid killing, yet mete it out on a frequent basis?


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 22, 2007)

I guess that's how it ends up sounding huh? 

Well, humans are somewhat strange in that we kill each other more than most other species too, for many more reasons than animals can even think up in their simple minds.

A male lion has his hunting territory and will defend it from rivals, but once he has it he is pretty much content on it until he is driven off from old age by a younger lion. 

Often human rulers are not content with enough territory just to sustain them, they would like more than simply having enough "Kings Deer" in their woods. They want a history, they want a goverment, they don't like encroaching neighbors. They are more afraid than the lion of being thrown out of power in their old age, they are also more willing to do something about it than the lion. So if you are a King, you make sure those neighbors are subdued and that your son will rule after you. And if you are a good President of America, you want your country's Democracy to survive and that the next transition of power is a peaceful one. 

If a head Lion gets kicked out at least the other lions of his clan don't have to worry about a differant style of goverment or culture. It's more about if the new Top Lion will be nastier or nicer than the last one. Their own lives won't change much though. 

So humans of a country go to war more than just out of pure survival like a animal or caveman. 
They go to maintain their status, territory protection, and sometimes to advance their civilization. That's probably the bigger reason that more humans die, more than the hungry hunter defending his freshly shot deer from another hungry hunter and one ends up killing the other. 

No humans do have more rules about domestic killing and clan killing than animals do. You don't kill your fellow citizens, or your family, you must get along. Animals will kill their children and their fellow members and they don't suffer any punishment. 

But if it's a strange country or people, you will feel more right to fight and kill them for your beliefs, territory, position. Lions won't do this kind of organized warfare agains't each other. They may gang up on a rival gang of hyena's, but that's partly because of the differance of species. 

One kind of organized warfare that comes to mind in the animal kingdom is Ants. They will attack other ants, and in massive numbers. Their battles are bloody and violent and are based on domination. The ants deliberately left their own fertile anthill to destroy and conquer another anthill. The other anthill is a power thats dangerous to them, but at the same time not really bothering them at the moment into starvation. 

There is something almost human in that attitude, but the ant have a much more stupified kind of teamwork to kill other ants. 

Anyway, I would say humans can be both more noble and more cruel in their reasons for killing each other than most animals.

But I suppose it's obvious and I'm just wasting words.

One more thing. Animals never give so much power to a head animal so that he can abuse it like humans do. There has never been a lion called Hitler, a big cat that dominated all the other lions. No, his own pride would never stand for it, they would not even follow him on a big crusade. And I doubt there has even been a lion that had the bright idea to call himself "Head of the Master Race."

Nah, too much trouble, the head lion thinks. Eat a Buffalo, take a nap and relax in the shade. Best way to live for a big cat like him. 

So humans allow their leaders more power, and that's why they can organize more killing of enemies under one leader. And once they have a really powerful leader, they are also less willing to part with him, even if his rule brings suffering to themselves. So that could be one reason why Hitler had more ambition than even fictional Simba the Lion.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 22, 2007)

Ya I know, don't trus Wiki. But see about the Pavement Ant? They attack each other, their own species for territory. They have their own violent wars all the time, just like humans I guess, but with less logic. 

Ant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ant cooperation and competition

Meat eater ants feeding on honey - social ants cooperate and collectively gather food.Not all ants have the same kind of societies. The Australian bulldog ants are among the biggest and most primitive of ants. The individual hunts alone, using its large eyes instead of its chemical senses to find prey. Like all ants they are social, but their social behavior is poorly developed compared to more advanced species. The Australian bulldog ant, Myrmecia pilosula, has only a single pair of chromosomes and males have just one chromosome as they are haploid.

Some species of ants are known for attacking and taking over the colonies of other ant species. Others are less expansionist but nonetheless just as aggressive; they attack colonies to steal eggs or larvae, which they either eat or raise as workers/slaves. Some ants, such as the Amazon ants, are incapable of feeding themselves, but must rely on captured worker ants to care for them. In some cases ant colonies may have other species of ants or termites within the same nest.[22]

The pavement ant is famous for its urge to increase its territory. In early spring, colonies attempt to conquer new areas and often attack the nearest enemy colony. These result in huge sidewalk battles, sometimes leaving thousands of ants dead. Because of their aggressive nature, they often invade and colonize seemingly impenetrable areas.

Ants identify kin and nestmates through their scents, a hydrocarbon-laced secretion that coats their exoskeletons. If an ant is separated from its original colony, it will eventually lose the colony scent. Any ant that enters a colony with a different scent than that of the colony will be attacked.[23] (See also Kin selection)

Here is a website about the differant kinds of fighting ants. 
Ants Fighting - Ant Wars

Pavement Ant battle


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## Matt308 (Apr 23, 2007)

You are an interesting individual SW.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 23, 2007)

hmmm........

Thanks, I guess.

Maybe I need to pay more attention to that quote by Ronald Reagan.


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## mkloby (Apr 23, 2007)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> hmmm........
> 
> Thanks, I guess.
> 
> Maybe I need to pay more attention to that quote by Ronald Reagan.



You're damn right you do


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## Matt308 (Apr 23, 2007)

Words to live by. And if you have ever met one. You would know the wisdom therein. I personally have yet to meet a Marine that bucks the logic.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 24, 2007)

You guys are both Marines, right?


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## Matt308 (Apr 24, 2007)

Only mkloby. I reside under his shoe.


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## mkloby (Apr 24, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> Only mkloby. I reside under his shoe.



Speaking of shoes, I need to polish my boots.


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## Erich (Apr 24, 2007)

I think the thread has spent itself ......... there will be other horrible conflicts to discuss too soon-enough


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## Matt308 (Apr 24, 2007)

Erich said:


> I think the thread has spent itself .......



Not a chance, Erich. Pinch yourself. Your in America, remember? 

Okay kiddies, here is a prime example of a good idea, poorly executed.

___________________________________________________________
Professor Fired Over Va. Tech Discussion 

Apr 23 08:28 AM US/Eastern



BOSTON (AP) - An adjunct professor was fired after leading a classroom discussion about the Virginia Tech shootings in which *he pointed a marker at some students and said "pow."* 
The five-minute demonstration at Emmanuel College on Wednesday, two days after a student killed 32 people on the Virginia Tech campus, included a discussion of gun control, whether to respond to violence with violence, and the public's "celebration of victimhood," said the professor, Nicholas Winset. 

During the demonstration, Winset pretended to shoot some students. Then one student pretended to shoot Winset to illustrate his point that the gunman might have been stopped had another student or faculty member been armed. 

"A classroom is supposed to be a place for academic exploration," Winset, who taught financial accounting, told the Boston Herald. 

He said administrators had asked the faculty to engage students on the issue. But on Friday, he got a letter saying he was fired and ordering him to stay off campus. 

Winset, 37, argued that the Catholic liberal arts school was stifling free discussion by firing him, and he said the move would have a "chilling effect" on open debate. He posted an 18-minute video on the online site YouTube defending his action. 

The college issued a statement saying: "Emmanuel College has clear standards of classroom and campus conduct, and does not in any way condone the use of discriminatory or obscene language." 

Student Junny Lee, 19, told The Boston Globe that most students didn't appear to find Winset's demonstration offensive.


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