# Russia intervenes in Syria



## tomo pauk (Sep 30, 2015)

Russian AF has conducted air strikes in Syria:

Russia conducts airstrike in Syria - CNNPolitics.com


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## GrauGeist (Sep 30, 2015)

Well...this could get interesting...


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## Torch (Sep 30, 2015)

Well with out getting into politics, can't blame this one on Bush..


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## bobbysocks (Sep 30, 2015)

what do you bet?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 30, 2015)

Well it is not like we don't do the same in other countries...

Just saying...

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## Lucky13 (Sep 30, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> Well...this could get interesting...



Indeed...



Torch said:


> Well with out getting into politics, can't blame this one on Bush..



Wait and see....  



bobbysocks said:


> what do you bet?



I put a £10 on, that they'll try....

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## GrauGeist (Sep 30, 2015)

From what I've read so far, the air srikes are not against ISIS, but have been targeting the U.S. backed rebels that are fighting Assad's regime.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 30, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> From what I've read so far, the air srikes are not against ISIS, but have been targeting the U.S. backed rebels that are fighting Assad's regime.



Not a surprise either...


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## Capt. Vick (Sep 30, 2015)

Welcome to the quagmire. Come on in, the water's fine!


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## buffnut453 (Sep 30, 2015)

How long before Space-X or Mr Branson start commercial space flight services to the nearest earth-like planet? I want to be on the first shuttle out of here!


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## Wayne Little (Oct 1, 2015)

Capt. Vick said:


> Welcome to the quagmire. Come on in, the water's fine!



Yep!


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## Lucky13 (Oct 1, 2015)

Are they going to 'liberate' Syria?


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## at6 (Oct 2, 2015)

Like Crimea, it will become part of the Russian Federation.


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## Torch (Oct 2, 2015)

I wonder what happens when a Russian bomb kills one of our "advisers"........


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## GrauGeist (Oct 2, 2015)

Torch said:


> I wonder what happens when a Russian bomb kills one of our "advisers"........


The current president will apologize to Putin for the advisor getting in the way of the bomb...

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## Wurger (Oct 2, 2015)

And it will be the Polish fault of course.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 2, 2015)

.....and the Swedes, obviously!


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 2, 2015)

I blame Obama Care...............

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## pbehn (Oct 2, 2015)

I read this today it explains everything clearly



"We are supporting Free Syrian Army and its allies. They support and fight with Southern Front,Syria Revolutionaries Front,Jarabulus Brigade,Al-Qassas Army,Jihad in the Path of Allah Brigade,Liwa Thuwwar al-Raqqa,Dawn of Freedom Brigades,Northern Sun Battalion,Knights of Justice Brigade,Thuwar al-Sham Battalions,Homs/Hama Liberation Movement,
Shields of the Revolution Council,Falcons of al-Ghab,Jabhat Ansar al-Islam,Falcons of Mount Zawiya Brigade,al-Rahman Legion,Farouq Brigades,Islamic Front,Ahrar ash-Sham,Jaysh al-Islam,Al-Tawhid Brigade,Army of Mujahedeen,Abu Amara Battalions,Mustafa Martyrs Brigade

So hope that is clear now. Yes they support Isis also but they are officially our enemy to clear up any misunderstanding. "


Personally I think there are some really cool names for sports teams there/


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## Torch (Oct 2, 2015)

Actually per a Russian ambassador it was Polands fault they were invaded in WW2, we can also blame Poland on this ISIS thing also..


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## GrauGeist (Oct 2, 2015)

Of course WWII was Poland's fault...if Poland wasn't there, then it would have never been invaded, right?

Dang those Polish troublemakers!


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## Wurger (Oct 2, 2015)

Of course .. Poles aren't responsible for hailstorm and whooping cough only.


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## rochie (Oct 2, 2015)

We call whooping cough, Polish flu, where i come from !


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## Lucky13 (Oct 2, 2015)

I bet that Donald Trump has a finger involved in their somewhere...


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## Lucky13 (Oct 2, 2015)

Wurger said:


> Of course .. Poles aren't responsible for hailstorm and whooping cough only.



True, we have those two of the North and South too!

Is this where I get me coat?


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## Wurger (Oct 2, 2015)




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## The Basket (Oct 6, 2015)

We have all the recipe for bad medicine.
Turkish F-16s getting locked up by some mysterious radar and fighters all over Syria bombing who knows.
This won't end well.
Putin does like to push the envelope and because he can hide behind his nuclear arsenal he knows he has a blank cheque to do whatever he wants in Syria or Ukraine or Crimea or wherever.


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 7, 2015)

I think of all the NATO countries, Turkey is the one you don't want to push the envelope with.

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## michaelmaltby (Oct 7, 2015)

Agreed .... and Turkey _should_ be, aggressively in this fight. No love lost on Russia in Turkish hearts. 

Russian Su-34 in Syria


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## herman1rg (Oct 7, 2015)

Today

Russian missiles 'hit IS in Syria from Caspian Sea' - BBC News


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## GrauGeist (Oct 7, 2015)

It still baffles me how anyone can think that a few airstrikes here and there is going to stop ISIS...

*if* people were truly interested in stopping that hoarde of murderous douchebags, they would initiate a full-blown ground offensive by all nations...not just a cobbled-together UN approved expeditionary force, and scour the earth of their very existence.

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## bobbysocks (Oct 7, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> It still baffles me how anyone can think that a few airstrikes here and there is going to stop ISIS...



think it is called wishful thinking...or is it naivety....or head in the sand ( kept it clean )...all things taught in politician school.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 7, 2015)

Well, ISIS has up to 200,000 well armed, and most cases, well trained men.

They have a broad assortment of vehicles, from heavy automatic cannon mounted on Toyota trucks, to full-blown AFVs. They have proven that they have the ability to move rapidly and overwhelm defenses in many cases, yet for all of their abilities, they lack air power.

This is a ground force that could be engaged at ground level and once drawn out, cut to shreds by supporting air elements. 

Poking at them with air assets alone is just playing a bigass game of "whack-a-mole".

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## michaelmaltby (Oct 10, 2015)

Here we go ....

Russian 'jet SHOT DOWN by Turkish forces after it flew into their airspace' | World | News | Daily Express


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## GrauGeist (Oct 10, 2015)

Boy...sure didn't see that coming....


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## fastmongrel (Oct 10, 2015)

Instead of making very expensive holes in the desert why arent the West and the former Communist countries trying to stop the flow of money that IS use to buy guns, ammo and pay the wages. Want to know why so many ex anti Assad fighters now fight for IS because they pay well.

Follow the money and shut down the flow and IS withers to core of crazies.


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## at6 (Oct 10, 2015)

Considering how "strict" ISIS is, no wonder people flee. If you don't pray enough, beheading, get caught smoking and they cut two fingers off. What do they cut off if they're caught masturbating?

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## Lucky13 (Oct 10, 2015)

We need someone to put forward the conspiracy theory, about how the west is financially supporting these groups, so that they can test new weapons...anyone up for it?


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## GrauGeist (Oct 10, 2015)

Lucky13 said:


> We need someone to put forward the conspiracy theory, about how the west is financially supporting these groups, so that they can test new weapons...anyone up for it?


Where have you been? 

There's tons of conspiracy stories floating around...

ISIS is actually the Israeli mossad, ISIS is actually the CIA, ISIS is both the CIA and Mossad, ISIS is not real, but a media trick to make people think there's trouble in the middle east.

ISIS is funded by the U.S., ISIS is funded by the "Zionists", ISIS is funded by the world bank, ISIS is funded by the Rothschilds, Illuminati, Masons, etc. etc. etc. 

And this is just a quick overview...


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## Lucky13 (Oct 10, 2015)

Bacon bomb them!

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## GrauGeist (Oct 10, 2015)

Or perhaps conduct airstrikes against ISIS with the Nazi UFOs from the secret Nazi base in the Antarctic


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## Lucky13 (Oct 10, 2015)

Send them our politicians....!


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 10, 2015)

How about Russia went in hoping to drive the price of oil up.

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## at6 (Oct 10, 2015)

vikingBerserker said:


> How about Russia went in hoping to drive the price of oil up.


That explanation makes sense.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 10, 2015)

vikingBerserker said:


> How about Russia went in hoping to drive the price of oil up.


That particular region doesn't have a significant oil export capacity and Putin already has Europe by the short hairs with his oil and natural gas exports BUT, it would most certainly be in Putin's best interests to stir up the hornet's nest to take the heat off his "leibensraum" goals in the Ukraine and other places.

Remember when Clinton was feeling the heat during the whitewater investigations and his womanizing shenanigans, he'd fling a few cruise missiles here and there to draw attention away from that circus.


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 11, 2015)

My friend in Tripoli, Lebanon reported this AM that the shoot-down story is _not_ confirmed .... I'll be hung from a lamp-post for panic mongering ..


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## Lucky13 (Oct 11, 2015)

michaelmaltby said:


> My friend in Tripoli, Lebanon reported this AM that the shoot-down story is _not_ confirmed .... I'll be hung from a lamp-post for panic mongering ..



....and no bacon for a _month!_


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## GrauGeist (Oct 11, 2015)

michaelmaltby said:


> My friend in Tripoli, Lebanon reported this AM that the shoot-down story is _not_ confirmed .... I'll be hung from a lamp-post for panic mongering ..


However, the Russians have not said anything and this silence says quite a bit. The Kremlin is always quick to deny any shenanigans, even when they are caught red-handed.

And I find it interesting that the Turks, NATO and the U.S. have been very quiet about this...

Also, after the last "accidental" Russian overflight of Turkish airspace, the Turks said that no further intrusions will be tolerated and any aircraft entering their airspace will be downed. This was about 6 days ago and here's a good report on what was going on at the time:
NATO Denounces Russia for Violating Turkish Airspace - ABC News


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## GrauGeist (Oct 12, 2015)

And now...there's this...

British Royal Air Force Given Approval To Shoot At Hostile Russian Jets | American Military News


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## parsifal (Oct 13, 2015)

Rag tag guerrilla army isil is not. ever noticed how they get about in the latest suvs, all the same, clean and tidy 9for a war zone) dressed the same, new looking weapons. These guys are well appointed, well trained, well motivated, and at the moment, unstoppable. And there are lots of people in there hurling bombs at each others lackeys but not at the real problem.


im just waiting for some sort of retaliation on Israel. after all, after a while its always Israels fault didn't you know.

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## GrauGeist (Oct 13, 2015)

parsifal said:


> ...its always Israels fault didn't you know.


Nope...we've already determined who's fault it is...



Wurger said:


> And it will be the Polish fault of course.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 13, 2015)

Yip.....and Bush and Clinton and Reagan and maybe even Lincoln!


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 14, 2015)

*Flashback - flash forward ...
*
A timely lesson from the Mideast past - The Globe and Mail

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## parsifal (Oct 14, 2015)

That article Michael says volumes about how the Israelis can be expected to act. but there is a problem. in the 1960s and 70's US support for the Israelis was unequivocal and the Europeans and their left wing limp d*ck leanings not nearly so strong as they are now. nowadays its not fashionable to back your friends regardless....we have to consider the other side, make sure that the Arab POV is considered. To me that's utter bulls*it, we need to stop thinking with our d*cks and act decisively and in a united way. bomb the arabs back to the stone age is my opinion, and then apply the screws to the russians. We have enough of the aces, but are just too stupid to realize.

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## vikingBerserker (Oct 15, 2015)

I wonder how the Mideast would have shaped up if the "Israelis" had moved to Madagascar instead.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 15, 2015)

......or Macclesfield!


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## Capt. Vick (Oct 15, 2015)

Lucky13 said:


> Bacon bomb them!



I'm sorry, but I just can't see wasting something so delicious on them. Especially when I hear there might be a shortage. Perish the thought!


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## Lucky13 (Oct 15, 2015)

This would be the fake bacon of course....


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## GrauGeist (Oct 15, 2015)

Lucky13 said:


> This would be the fake bacon of course....


using fake bacon would have the same effect as an ornamental (plastic) garlic clove on Dracula...


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 15, 2015)

or alcohol free beer, what's the point??????


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## Lucky13 (Oct 15, 2015)

Just the insult!


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## at6 (Oct 15, 2015)

Just send nude pics of Joseph Stalin in a blonde wig. Oh wait!That's Putin's girlfriend.


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 16, 2015)

It's just been reported that Turkey either shot down a drone or another aircraft at its border with Syria.


Turkey says it shot down aircraft near border with Syria - CNN.com


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## bobbysocks (Oct 18, 2015)

one thing that ISIS/ISIL is NOT is a rag tag group. they are very well organized. they have an extremely good intel section, top notch recruiting program, and unrivaled PR group in arab countries. they are very well equipped ( which makes you think who is giving them the stuff...2 guesses one begins with R and the other C ) and employ good battle field tactics. they are not going to get disillusioned and quit nor are they going to be diplomatically reasoned with. sooner or later there will have to be a face to face confrontation on the ground.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 18, 2015)

Another key point with ISIS that no one is addressing, is the fact the they control quite a few oil fields and refining units in the area AND are transporting selling that oil openly...

That in itself is a huge amount of income for them and not a single word is said about it by any of the "policing" nations.


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## parsifal (Oct 18, 2015)

> they are very well equipped ( which makes you think who is giving them the stuff...2 guesses one begins with R and the other C )



I agree with every other point in your post, but this one leaves me scratching my head. Why would the Russians back these people when they are so strongly supporting Assad? China maybe, iran probably not, North Korea possibly, but Russia doesn't make a lot of sense....


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## Wildcat (Oct 19, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> Another key point with ISIS that no one is addressing, is the fact the they control quite a few oil fields and refining units in the area AND are transporting selling that oil openly...
> 
> That in itself is a huge amount of income for them and not a single word is said about it by any of the "policing" nations.



I saw strike footage the other day of an oil plant being destroyed, so I guess someone is going after them.


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## bobbysocks (Oct 19, 2015)

parsifal said:


> I agree with every other point in your post, but this one leaves me scratching my head. Why would the Russians back these people when they are so strongly supporting Assad? China maybe, iran probably not, North Korea possibly, but Russia doesn't make a lot of sense....



we will see. I haven't looked at this in awhile. last I saw the Russian "attacks on IS" were in areas that there was no IS presence and actually against coalition backed rebels. so they were at that point actually leaving IS alone...


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## GrauGeist (Oct 19, 2015)

Wildcat said:


> I saw strike footage the other day of an oil plant being destroyed, so I guess someone is going after them.


lol...my guess would be Putin...the fewer outside sources, the better for his oil exports


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## parsifal (Oct 19, 2015)

bobbysocks said:


> we will see. I haven't looked at this in awhile. last I saw the Russian "attacks on IS" were in areas that there was no IS presence and actually against coalition backed rebels. so they were at that point actually leaving IS alone...



Maybe, I agree. But from a military standpoint, it makes sense to defeat the weaker opponent first. I think that the Russians are counting on its "allies" (thats us) will take steps to at least contain IS. Whilst this is happening they will deal with the moderate opposition groups that we place so much faith in. Once those groups are neutralised, Assad is in better shape to regroup his country and take on the greater more serious IS threat. If the kurds and the Assad loyalists can get their cr*p together, the Soviets will restore their client to being in control of their country.

Its a better strategy than the unrealistic goals we have set. Once again the Russians are out manouvering us and leaving us fuming. If the Assadists are restored, Putin knows he can open or shut the refugees getting into Europe, which gives him enormous leverage there as well. He's a smart, ruthless cookie, and we are acting like a bunch of dumba**es....... 

At least thats the way it looks.

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## at6 (Oct 20, 2015)

Part of the reason for IS being so successful is the way they wage war. With well trained and well equipped fighters, they also don't worry about "collateral damage" unless it happens to be their wives and children. When you see the video showing that their families are armed to the teeth, it proves that there is no such thing as an IS civilian. There is only one way to wage war and none of our "leadership" has the courage to actually conduct the kind needed to eliminate them. What we've seen in Syria and Iraq prior to the Russian intervention only gave credence to Assad's claim to fight terrorism. As far as refugees and asylum, grant it to Christians and those facing genocide by Islam and send all Muslims back to Turkey or where ever they migrated from.

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## GrauGeist (Oct 23, 2015)

And now:

New Canadian Prime Minister To Retreat Against ISIS, Recall Fighter Jets | American Military News

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## at6 (Oct 23, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> And now:
> 
> New Canadian Prime Minister To Retreat Against ISIS, Recall Fighter Jets | American Military News


 A white Obama.

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## bobbysocks (Oct 25, 2015)

parsifal said:


> Maybe, I agree. But from a military standpoint, it makes sense to defeat the weaker opponent first. I think that the Russians are counting on its "allies" (thats us) will take steps to at least contain IS. Whilst this is happening they will deal with the moderate opposition groups that we place so much faith in. Once those groups are neutralised, Assad is in better shape to regroup his country and take on the greater more serious IS threat. If the kurds and the Assad loyalists can get their cr*p together, the Soviets will restore their client to being in control of their country.
> 
> Its a better strategy than the unrealistic goals we have set. Once again the Russians are out manouvering us and leaving us fuming. If the Assadists are restored, Putin knows he can open or shut the refugees getting into Europe, which gives him enormous leverage there as well. He's a smart, ruthless cookie, and we are acting like a bunch of dumba**es.......
> 
> At least thats the way it looks.



now there ya go! yeah..i can see that. why get your nose possibly bloodied when you can get someone to get theirs done and not you?? putin is smart....he would never have reached that level in the intel community on politics alone. what he really has going for him, as an added bonus, is the other heads of state haven't the foggiest idea of how to deal with things that don't go according to their script. its like a tree hugger trying to fix a chainsaw...

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## GrauGeist (Oct 25, 2015)

bobbysocks said:


> ...its like a tree hugger trying to fix a chainsaw...


LMAO!!

You have won the internet today!


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## Wildcat (Oct 26, 2015)

.....meanwhile, ISIS have beefed up their AA defences.
https://www.funker530.com/floating-condom-bombs-isis-anti-air-strategy/

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## Lucky13 (Oct 26, 2015)

Where's the A-10 when you need it?


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## bobbysocks (Oct 26, 2015)

wisely taken out of service by the smartest minds in the military...


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## GrauGeist (Oct 26, 2015)

Lucky13 said:


> Where's the A-10 when you need it?


There are 12 A-10s of the 75th FS flying missions against ISIS in Syria and adjoining areas from Incirlik, Turkey while another 12 A-10s of the 74th FS are held in reserve, currently stationed in Estonia (anti-Putin security for the Baltic region).



bobbysocks said:


> wisely taken out of service by the smartest minds in the military...


Nope...the senate house committee has approved funding for the 2016 Defense Appropriations bill that allows the A-10 to continue in service for the 2016 fiscal year and that funding has a caveat that prohibits the USAF from placing the A-10 on backup/retirement status.


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## bobbysocks (Oct 26, 2015)

glad someone is smart enough to see the value in keeping it.


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## at6 (Oct 27, 2015)

It needs to put back into production since there is nothing out there to replace it. I'd say it has to be the best ground attack aircraft ever produced.


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## bobbysocks (Oct 27, 2015)

I'm thinking the rationale is that a good attack helo can do the same task....eeeehhh


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## GrauGeist (Oct 27, 2015)

at6 said:


> It needs to put back into production since there is nothing out there to replace it. I'd say it has to be the best ground attack aircraft ever produced.


no need, really...we have enough in service and reserve to scour the earth clean several times over...



bobbysocks said:


> I'm thinking the rationale is that a good attack helo can do the same task....eeeehhh


While the U.S. has impressive combat helos at the moment, there is nothing in the inventory that has the punch and armored attributes of an A-10.
Now if they made a western version of the Mi-24/Mi-35...that would be a serious contender.


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## parsifal (Oct 27, 2015)

Qualitatively its a lay down mezzaire that the a-10 is the best in its class, but its main opposition, the Su25 is 1/4 the cost. The attached assessment comes down in favour of the hog, but doesn't consider unit cost. Is the A-10 worth the price tag? 

https://defencesummits.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/su-25vsa-10_1.jpg


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 27, 2015)

A-10 ... twice the cost ... twice the payload ... and better loiter time. When it comes to $$$$ you have you compare what you're getting for your $$$$


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## bobbysocks (Oct 27, 2015)

its more like can you afford to be without it?


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## GrauGeist (Oct 27, 2015)

Also consider the GAU-8's max. store of 1,350 rounds to the GSh-30's max. store of 250 rounds


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 29, 2015)

Sukhoi on the job ....


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## parsifal (Oct 29, 2015)

Kasparov overnight, in self imposed exile in New York, former chess champion turned political commentator and anti-Putin critic has come out over night to say Putin is the most dangerous man on earth right now


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 30, 2015)

...

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## Wayne Little (Oct 30, 2015)

The A-10 is an Awesome machine....keep on Flying!


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## at6 (Nov 1, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> And now:
> 
> New Canadian Prime Minister To Retreat Against ISIS, Recall Fighter Jets | American Military News


It would seem that our northern neighbors bought a steer when when they really needed a bull.


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 1, 2015)

Here's PRAVA take on him:

Canada's new PM: Obama lite - English pravda.ru


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## at6 (Nov 2, 2015)

michaelmaltby said:


> Here's PRAVA take on him:
> 
> Canada's new PM: Obama lite - English pravda.ru


For the most part they got it right. My sympathies to your people.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 2, 2015)

I would take any "media" articles from Russia with a grain of salt however.

Pravda, RT and the rest all have a huge problem with accurate reporting and in many cases, reminds me of TASS or Soviet Times "articles" back in the day.


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## bobbysocks (Nov 2, 2015)

and such was one of the reasons for Radio Free Europe....


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## GrauGeist (Nov 2, 2015)

bobbysocks said:


> and such was one of the reasons for Radio Free Europe....


However, the totalitarian regimes labeled Radio Free Europe as a "propaganda tool" of the capitalist regimes, spreading lies and trying to undermine the socialist way of life.

Think of the socialist "propaganda" accusations as you would one of these .ORG misinformation memes that people constantly post on social media...like for example, this recent "hack" by anonymous that exposes (according to anonymous) "all the republican politicians" that are members of the KKK...while omitting the large membership of democrat members (and independent, libertarian, etc) and the people are buying it lock, stock and barrel. 

Dr. Goebbels would be absolutely thrilled with today's social media.

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## bobbysocks (Nov 2, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> However, the totalitarian regimes labeled Radio Free Europe as a "propaganda tool" of the capitalist regimes, spreading lies and trying to undermine the socialist way of life.
> 
> *certainly they did...and I am sure the west did a little spreading of propaganda too....and just maybe stretched the truth a tiny bit*
> 
> ...



there are the 21st century Goebbels at work....


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 19, 2015)

*Destruction of ISIL oil assets* .... Syrian oil trucked to Iraqi refineries


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgYbiCGYy2c_


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 19, 2015)

Man, to have a target like that while flying a squad of A-10s...............

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## GrauGeist (Nov 19, 2015)

Something that I've noticed with the Russian offensive, is that they're using WP and free-fall bombing in target areas unlike the NATO forces, who have been using guided munitions.

My concern is the density of civilians in these areas, while at risk by guided munitions, are certainly between a rock and a hard place with the Russian's method.


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## javlin (Nov 19, 2015)

michaelmaltby said:


> Here's PRAVA take on him:
> 
> Canada's new PM: Obama lite - English pravda.ru



O'bama lite??  he is wasting no time...

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## at6 (Nov 19, 2015)

I saw a report about ISIS in Afghanistan, where they have taken over one region and are training children from the age of three or four to use pistols and rifles to kill the "enemy" with out hesitation. Makes me wonder if there is anything such as a civilian in their territory. I might have to agree with the Russian way of dealing with ISIS.


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## javlin (Nov 19, 2015)

I hear you AT we really have not had a war without civilian involvement/causalities since WWI I would venture to guess?WWIII may of already started with more and more players and alliances and we do not even realize it yet..


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## GrauGeist (Nov 20, 2015)

at6 said:


> I saw a report about ISIS in Afghanistan, where they have taken over one region and are training children from the age of three or four to use pistols and rifles to kill the "enemy" with out hesitation. Makes me wonder if there is anything such as a civilian in their territory. I might have to agree with the Russian way of dealing with ISIS.


Shades of Vietnam...



javlin said:


> I hear you AT we really have not had a war without civilian involvement/causalities since WWI I would venture to guess?WWIII may of already started with more and more players and alliances and we do not even realize it yet..


There really has been no war in history that hasn't seen civilians caught in the crossfire.

Sadly, in this modern age, it has become acceptable to hide as a civilian and conduct a guerrilla war. This also leads to an increased "civilian" body count when these fighters are killed, because the media doesn't differentiate between civilian dead and "civilian" combatants.


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## Thorlifter (Nov 20, 2015)

I don't think the Russians have ever been overly concerned about collateral damage


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## at6 (Nov 20, 2015)

Since technically IS fighters aren't actually military and indistinguishable from anyone else, they might be considered " collateral damage" when they are killed.


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 21, 2015)

Much nonsense here but interesting NTL ... 

Russia’s Propeller-Driven ‘Bear’ Bomber Still Has Claws | War Is Boring

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## Lucky13 (Nov 21, 2015)

vikingBerserker said:


> Man, to have a target like that while flying a squad of A-10s...............



.....now, now....don't get too excited!  (I'd _love_ to be the pilot in one of them though)


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## fastmongrel (Nov 21, 2015)

With a target neatly lined up like that a Polikarpov Po2 armed with a machine gun firing incendiary would do the job.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 21, 2015)

fastmongrel said:


> With a target neatly lined up like that a Polikarpov Po2 armed with a machine gun firing incendiary would do the job.


Or imagine a strafing duo of P-47s with HVARs on the hardpoints for extra excitement


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## parsifal (Nov 21, 2015)

michaelmaltby said:


> Much nonsense here but interesting NTL ...
> 
> Russia’s Propeller-Driven ‘Bear’ Bomber Still Has Claws | War Is Boring



why much nonsense?


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## parsifal (Nov 21, 2015)

There are two problems when fighting an enemy like ISIL. The first is target identification. They have this nasty habit of embedding themselves amongst the civilian poulation. Every time you hit a legit target, you are likely also to hit a non-military target. Hitting civilans for us is now a war crime, but not for them. Our ROEs dont allow us to do anything other than exercise all the care we can to not hit non-military targets.

Collateral damage is not just an unfortunate side effect that if we had the nuts to do it, we should. we absolutely should not. Every time we hit a nonj-legit target, we upset someone, and just increase the hatred for us, and the pacifists in our own country get stronger.

This is the new dynamic of modern warfare. Weve got the firepower, thats the easy bit. We need the accuracy to go with it. thats the hard bit, None of those old antiques, including the A-10, or the Tu-95, can deliver the whole equation, and thats exactly what we need right now


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## GrauGeist (Nov 21, 2015)

parsifal said:


> why much nonsense?


That article is pumping the Tu-95 up to be some awesome piece of hardware, but anything the Bear can do, the B-52 can do better - faster, higher, farther, bigger warload and it's older than the Tu-95, too.


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## at6 (Nov 22, 2015)

ISIL uses dumb bombs. Theirs have two legs.

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## bobbysocks (Nov 22, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> That article is pumping the Tu-95 up to be some awesome piece of hardware, but anything the Bear can do, the B-52 can do better - faster, higher, farther, bigger warload and it's older than the Tu-95, too.



that is true.... IS is an enemy that lacks an adequate and accurate SAM system or AA so even old ww2 aircraft would be effective tools fighting them. I think the WP bombs the Russians are using or a cluster bomb would be effective against those rows of truck than a laser guided missile.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 22, 2015)

The photos and videos I have seen, where WP has been used, is on/around structures

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## michaelmaltby (Nov 22, 2015)

"...why much nonsense?"

The article discusses the Bear without admitting that it's a _jet_ ... a turboprop albeit ... but nontheless , a jet. And are turboprops really_ that _different in maintenance-needs than turboprops ..? I would think that Bears would be more demanding - maintenance wise - than B-52s. Those counter-rotating props must set up some nasty harmonics for the airframe to absorb?


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## GrauGeist (Nov 22, 2015)

michaelmaltby said:


> ...Those counter-rotating props must set up some nasty harmonics for the airframe to absorb?


They also made it sound like the Bear was unique both in it's sonic prop-tips (many others, like the Skyraider dit it) and in overall sound output (B-36 was also a champ in high noise level)


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## parsifal (Nov 23, 2015)

Its unique, but only from the Russian point of view. These old fossils did a lot of good work for the Russians back in the 60s and 70s. 

They carried an impressive array of stand off weaponary back then, albeit, it was difficult to hit the side of a barn door with the missiles they carried. They were trained to attack in groups of about 15 a/c, launching more or less simultaneously. they usually carried 2 AS-4 Kitchen missiles, which was nuclear capable, sort of accurate and a stand off range of several hundred kilometres. They were assigned the task of taking out the US carriers during any serious confrontation. 

This is a reasonable summary of Russian cruise missile rocketry. I don't think its anything to be dismissed lightly. 

Soviet/Russian Cruise Missiles

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## GrauGeist (Nov 23, 2015)

That was the Soviet mindset, as they knew the U.S. defense system was accurate and effective, so they gambled on a "bum rush" in the chance that one or more missiles may get through.


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## Lucky13 (Nov 23, 2015)

Interesting read!


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## Marcel (Nov 24, 2015)

Now it gets worse, Turkey shot down a Russian aircraft... Someone should tell the Turks they have to decide which side they are on.


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## fastmongrel (Nov 24, 2015)

Marcel said:


> Now it gets worse, Turkey shot down a Russian aircraft... Someone should tell the Turks they have to decide which side they are on.



They are against the Kurds and are quite happy to see IS killing them.

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## GrauGeist (Nov 24, 2015)

Marcel said:


> Now it gets worse, Turkey shot down a Russian aircraft... Someone should tell the Turks they have to decide which side they are on.


Turkey has warned the Russians several times that overflight of their airpace will not be tolerated.

The last time the Russians did it, Turkey warned that they will down the next Russian plane.


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## stona (Nov 24, 2015)

The Russians have been bombing groups which are supported by Turkey and are fighting the Assad regime, supported by Russia, in that region. That's why the Russian jet was shot down, and that's why it looks like the crew were subsequently killed, by said groups.
Whether or not the Russian jet was indeed in Turkish air space is yet to be confirmed.
Steve


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## Marcel (Nov 24, 2015)

This may all be true, but if you've got a barrel of gunpowder, the last thing you want to do is throwing in a burning fuse. Whether the Russians were in Turkish airspace can be discussed, but it has been dangerously close to the border as the aircraft landed in Syrian territory, only 4 km from the Turkish border. It is stupid of the Russians to provoke the Turks and just as stupid of the Turks to be provoked. The Turks and the Russians are playing a game in which only everybody will loose. I just hope that we as NATO will not be called for help in this stupidity. While everybody is screaming that IsIs should be bombed and destroyed, they still haven't decided if IsIs is really the enemy or that they should try to get their own in this conflict. The killing of the pilots is another stupid deed. Nobody gains anything and will only make the situation worse.

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## GrauGeist (Nov 24, 2015)

I agree, Marcel...the Russians have been harassing U.S. aircraft in that region and the U.S. ignores them.

The Turks, on the otherhand are known to be reactionary and it doesn't take much provocation to get them to jump.


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## stona (Nov 24, 2015)

The NATO line, unsurprisingly, is that the Russian jet was in Turkish/NATO air space. To paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davies' response to a question in a famous trial/scandal here, many years ago, 'they would say that wouldn't they.'
Not everyone is batting for the same team here. The Russians were bombing a group supported by the Turks who are just as keen to get rid of Assad as the Russians are to maintain his regime. The russians are not just bombing Daesh, they are bombing anyone opposed to Assad, including groups supported by 'the west'.
The Russian and some western air forces are bombing Syria, but they have quite different objectives.
Cheers
Steve


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## parsifal (Nov 24, 2015)

It would be easier if a caliphate was established, then nuke the place out of history. I think we should dust off the old massive retaliation responses of the cold war. step on my toes, ill blow your head off. 

Turkey is testing this, i hope we support them as we should instead of trying to introduce some form of moral code to what might happen or not happen. thats what starts real wars and gets people killed.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 24, 2015)

Details on the downing:

Turkey releases graphic showing 'flight path' of Russian jet it downed over Syria | Middle East | News | The Independent

http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/24/ruaf-su-24-shot-down-by-turkey/


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## davparlr (Nov 24, 2015)

Boy, this sounds like the beginning of a Tom Clancy novel. Turks shoot down Russian plane (done), Russia deploys missile cruiser Moskva to Syria (done), Moskva downs Turkish F-16 over Turkey with a S-300PMU Favorite ship-to-air missile (not yet), NATO activated, Turkey sinks Moskva with barrage of Popeye air-to-surface missiles from F4E-2020 Terminator aircraft, Russia mobilizes forces and moves into Georgia, all hell breaks loose ......

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## buffnut453 (Nov 24, 2015)

Hope you haven't been reading an early draft of the script...your line of thought sounds way too plausible, and hence scary.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 24, 2015)

davparlr said:


> Boy, this sounds like the beginning of a Tom Clancy novel. Turks shoot down Russian plane (done), Russia deploys missile cruiser Moskva to Syria (done), Moskva downs Turkish F-16 over Turkey with a S-300PMU Favorite ship-to-air missile (not yet), NATO activated, Turkey sinks Moskva with barrage of Popeye air-to-surface missiles from F4E-2020 Terminator aircraft, Russia mobilizes forces and moves into Georgia, all hell breaks loose ......


You forgot the build up of Russian forces along the Ukranian border as well as forces along the Baltic frontier...

I honestly wouldn't put it past Putin to sacrifice a Su-34 in order to get the ball rolling. He knows full well that hazing U.S. aircraft over Syria wouldn't get anything but warnings and finger waving, but the Turks are predictable and easy to provoke.

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## davparlr (Nov 24, 2015)

Putin needs to divert the Russian people's attention from the economy. 40 dollars a barrel for oil must be suffocating the Russian economy. Think of Argentina and Admiral Jorge Anaya.

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## javlin (Nov 24, 2015)

Article IV today and I do not think Article V is in the works as of yet but if we have a couple of more dominoes fall it could happen.Soviets claim surface to air strike coming from Syria from troops supported by Turkey who claim responsibility.The SU24 was not over much of Turkey's airspace even according to their own reports at most 10-15seconds if just cruising.The Soviets have hit alot of oil trucks from ISIS (500+) which is cheap oil for Turkey in this region run by Turkmen in Syria who reportedly requested surface to air missiles of late because of Russia's harassment.The characters involved in this is getting complicated as to who wants what and for what those reasons might be.Then we have China flexing it's muscles in the Pacific who now claim the Spratley Islands http://ww2aircraft.net/forum/modern/spratley-islands-38916.html


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## Marcel (Nov 24, 2015)

parsifal said:


> It would be easier if a caliphate was established, then nuke the place out of history. I think we should dust off the old massive retaliation responses of the cold war. step on my toes, ill blow your head off.
> 
> Turkey is testing this, i hope we support them as we should instead of trying to introduce some form of moral code to what might happen or not happen. thats what starts real wars and gets people killed.


No Parsifal, wars don't start by moral code, war starts by aggression and stupidity.


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## parsifal (Nov 25, 2015)

Of course there needs to be a degree of rational measured response to the problems in front of us. But it seems to me that our ideas on limited war, controlled responses and other diplomatic niceties are being ignored by our opponents. We set parameters, measured, known responses to a given situation. Our opponents have simply ignored those parameters and applied a code of conduct totally foreign to what we understand as rational behaviour. The only way you can meet that is to fight the fight these people don't think we will or can, expand the parameters of the limited war to a point where the pain we inflict exceeds or is above the pain that can be inflicted on us.

The wars of the 20th century were not fought for a wide variety of reasons. Winning wars did not involve consideration of the moral aspects of a war. a war is an inherently ammoral exercise.


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## stona (Nov 25, 2015)

The Turks themselves say that the Russian jets, though they also claim that they were of 'unknown nationality' at the time, 'violated Turkish national airspace to a depth of 1.36 miles and 1.15 miles in length for 17 seconds from 9:24:05 local time'. They also claim that ten warnings were issued in the previous five minutes as the aircraft approached.

The Russians say that their radar at the Hmeymim air base shows that it was the Turkish aircraft that entered Syrian air space to shoot down their aircraft, but then they would say that wouldn't they.

Cheers

Steve


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## Marcel (Nov 25, 2015)

parsifal said:


> But it seems to me that our ideas on limited war, controlled responses and other diplomatic niceties are being ignored by our opponents.


I think everything depends on what you define as 'our opponents'. If Russia is amongst those, then it is relevant to this incident. If isis is our opponent then this incident between Turkey and Russia is contraproductive and dangerous. So the reaction should be one that takes into account what our goal is. Do we want to fight Russia or do we want to wipe isis from the earth. It is clear that both Russia and Turkey have not made up their mind yet what they want. If our goal is to wipe isis from the earth then taking sides here is deviating us from our goal.


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## stona (Nov 25, 2015)

Marcel said:


> do we want to wipe isis from the earth.



Never going to happen. You can kill people but you can't kill an idea.

Steve

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## Elmas (Nov 25, 2015)

A friend of mine sent me a document about the situation...


Hi All,
A highly restricted briefing document on Syria …

President Assad ( who is bad ) is a nasty guy who got so nasty his people rebelled and the Rebels (who are good) started winning (Hurrah!).
But then some of the rebels turned a bit nasty and are now called Islamic State (who are definitely bad!) and some continued to support democracy (who are still good.)
So the Americans ( who are good ) started bombing Islamic State ( who are bad ) and giving arms to the Syrian Rebels (who are good) so they could fight Assad ( who is still bad ) which was good.
By the way, there is a breakaway state in the north run by the Kurds who want to fight IS (which is a good thing) but the Turkish authorities think they are bad, so we have to say they are bad whilst secretly thinking they're good and giving them guns to fight IS (which is good) but that is another matter.
Getting back to Syria.
So President Putin ( who is bad, cos he invaded Crimea and the Ukraine and killed lots of folks including that nice Russian man in London with polonium poisoned sushi ) has decided to back Assad (who is still bad) by attacking IS (who are also bad) which is sort of a good thing?
But Putin ( still bad ) thinks the Syrian Rebels ( who are good ) are also bad, and so he bombs them too, much to the annoyance of the Americans ( who are good ) who are busy backing and arming the rebels ( who are also good).
Now Iran (who used to be bad, but now they have agreed not to build any nuclear weapons and bomb Israel are now good ) are going to provide ground troops to support Assad ( still bad ) as are the Russians (bad) who now have ground troops and aircraft in Syria.
So a Coalition of Assad (still bad) Putin (extra bad) and the Iranians (good, but in a bad sort of way) are going to attack IS (who are bad) which is a good thing, but also the Syrian Rebels (who are good) which is bad.
Now the British (obviously good, except that nice Mr Corbyn in the corduroy jacket, who is probably bad) and the Americans (also good) cannot attack Assad (still bad) for fear of upsetting Putin (bad) and Iran (good / bad) and now they have to accept that Assad might not be that bad after all compared to IS (who are super bad).
So Assad (bad) is now probably good, being better than IS (but lets face it, drinking your own wee is better than IS so no real choice there) and since Putin and Iran are also fighting IS that may now make them Good. America (still Good) will find it hard to arm a group of rebels being attacked by the Russians for fear of upsetting Mr Putin (now good) and that nice mad Ayatollah in Iran (also Good), so they may be forced to say that the Rebels are now Bad, or at the very least abandon them to their fate. This will lead most of them to flee to Turkey and on to Europe or join IS (still the only constantly bad group).
To Sunni Muslims, an attack by Shia Muslims (Assad and Iran backed by Russians will be seen as something of a Holy War, and the ranks of IS will now be seen by the Sunnis as the only Jihadis fighting in the Holy War and hence many Muslims will now see IS as Good - Doh!)
Sunni Muslims will also see the lack of action by Britain and America in support of their Sunni rebel brothers as something of a betrayal (mmm…might have a point…) and hence we will be seen as Bad.
So now we have America (now bad) and Britain (also bad) providing limited support to Sunni Rebels (bad) many of whom are looking to IS (Good / bad) for support against Assad (now good) who, along with Iran (also Good) and Putin (also, now, unbelievably, Good) are attempting to retake the country Assad used to run before all this started?
I hope that clears all this up for you.
Regards,

Paul

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## rochie (Nov 25, 2015)

That is great, as Homer would say "its funny cos its true" !


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## pbehn (Nov 25, 2015)

Elmas said:


> I hope that clears all this up for you.
> Regards,
> 
> Paul


The west always has a good guy and a bad guy, it comes from watching too many movies, the result is what you posted.


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## stona (Nov 25, 2015)

Very good!
But let's not forget why the whole sorry mess got started in the first place! You organise or fund the removal, or attempted removal of a 'bad' guy (Saddam, Gadaffi, Assad being the most recent) and you get something even worse. What you don't get is the democracy we keep promising to people who don't want it in the first place 

Did someone mention Iran. One name, Mossadegh, all he wanted was his own oil and look what's happened since 'we' removed him from power. There's nothing new under the sun.

Steve

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## pbehn (Nov 25, 2015)

stona said:


> Very good!
> But let's not forget why the whole sorry mess got started in the first place! You organise or fund the removal, or attempted removal of a 'bad' guy (Saddam, Gadaffi, Assad being the most recent) and you get something even worse. What you don't get is the democracy we keep promising to people who don't want it in the first place
> 
> Did someone mention Iran. One name, Mossadegh, all he wanted was his own oil and look what's happened since 'we' removed him from power. There's nothing new under the sun.
> ...



Who ever we help in the Islamic world becomes their new "bad guy" since they are being helped by infidel crusaders. We have so far deposed 3 basically secular rulers and replaced them with a bunch of fanatics. We support the house of Saud which is no different to any other Muslim "government" apart from it buys our Jets.


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 25, 2015)

vikingBerserker said:


> I think of all the NATO countries, Turkey is the one you don't want to push the envelope with.



Well, Putin pushed the envelope. The sad thought to me is this might really have been an accident on the part of the Soviet pilots flying into Turkish airspace, but the Russians and Syrians with prior aircraft and drones intentionally violating Turkish airspace over time set the tone.


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## stona (Nov 25, 2015)

pbehn said:


> We have so far deposed 3 basically secular rulers



But they were bad guys weren't they? It did turn out that the chief baddie didn't have any WMDs and probably wasn't quite so bad after all. None of them seem sooooo bad when something far worse inhabits the vacuum created by their removal.

I'm not sure that the best way to deal with a wasp nest is to hit it with a stick!

Cheers

Steve


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## pbehn (Nov 25, 2015)

stona said:


> I'm not sure that the best way to deal with a wasp nest is to hit it with a stick!


Ah but there are two types of wasp in the nest you must hit the ones that go buzz buzz with a stick and give the ones that go buzz buzz buzz some jam. The pesky Ruskies are giving jam to the buzz buzz wasps, just how stupid can they be?


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## GrauGeist (Nov 25, 2015)

stona said:


> But they were bad guys weren't they? It did turn out that the chief baddie didn't have any WMDs and probably wasn't quite so bad after all. None of them seem sooooo bad when something far worse inhabits the vacuum created by their removal.
> 
> I'm not sure that the best way to deal with a wasp nest is to hit it with a stick!
> 
> ...


That's actually not quite true.

The masses were expecting to find silos of nukes and other media-promoted weapons, but the actual WMDs that were known to exists were, indeed found.

Aside from the intercepted yellowcake that Hussein was secretly purchasing from Nigeria, the Dutch Army found a cashe of Sarin-B laden artillery shells in northern Iraq, nearly every Iraqi army base had stockpiles of 55 gallon drums filled with insecticide, the U.S. Army discovered a massive cache of sulfur-mustard laden artillery shells as well as 2,400 rockets, containing nerve agents found cached in another location.

This doesn't include the large number of various chemical or nerve agent equipped munitions buried throughout the area surrounding the Al Muthanna Chemical Weapon lab and manufacturing complex.

So the truth is, yes, there were WMDs...the downside to this is, not all were ever found and they have been turning up on the black market. Which is very disturbing.


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## stona (Nov 25, 2015)

These weapons are not really the point. That Iraq had these agents was a well established fact, it's what the Iraqis were doing with them. We were all led to believe they were ready to be deployed at 30 minutes notice which was not true.
A substantial part of their stockpile had been dismantled/destroyed with admittedly not always complete cooperation from the Iraqis after the first Gulf war. It was due to this and the various reports of the UN's own weapons inspectors that the US FAILED to get a security council resolution authourising the use of force prior to the second war. That's why the British people were thoroughly misled by their government about why exactly we were joining the US in a war in Iraq.
Having failed to remove Saddam the first time the US and her allies (excluding of course the French this time) were determined to do it second time around and would use any pretext to do so. The problem was that there was no plan for what happened next.

Having had a plan for the RAF to join in the bombing rejected by our parliament the government is working frantically to use the atrocity committed in Paris as a stick to beat recalcitrant MPs into line and force a second vote. We'll probably join in hitting the wasp nest with a stick soon.

Cheers

Steve

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## michaelmaltby (Nov 25, 2015)

My Lebanese friend in Tripoli sent me _this_ ..... the local view of the situation around the shoot-down. Jeeezus.

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## parsifal (Nov 26, 2015)

I can see that we are starting to believe our own propaganda. The western interventions in the Middle East were never intended or about bringing democracy to the region. This is an intense and bitter struggle about control, and we are no better or worse than any of the other players. It is an extension and variation of the cold war, with some of the old players, as well as some new ones, and a whole lot of proxies to do our bidding generally in the name of an ism of one sort or another.

Big players in this are Iran, the Saudis, the US. Slightly less significant are the Russians and the Turks. Also lurking around looking for whatever scraps they can steal are the Europeans, chiefly Germany and France, and the Chinese at about the same bottom feeding level. These latter are consipicuous by their absence. They aree generally hanging back, waiting for an implosion so they can move in and clean up so to speak. There is a lot at stake here, and no one is being honest, and no one has clean hands in this. Except maybe Israel, but watch, they will surely be blamed sooner or later


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## stona (Nov 26, 2015)

It's been going on since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire 

Steve

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## michaelmaltby (Nov 27, 2015)

Speaking of which ....

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