# The Greatest Fighter Pilot in WW II???



## lesofprimus (Jul 30, 2004)

There are many many names that can be included here...

What is the criteria for this list??? 

Kills??? Ability??? Reputation??? Tactical Pioneers??? Calibre of Enemy???

Ivan Kozhedub
Alexandr Pokryshkin
David McCampbell 
Richard Bong
Francis Gabreski
Thomas McGuire
Greg Boyington
James Johnson
Brendan Finucane
Marmaduke Pattle 
Adolph Malan
Tetsuzo Iwamoto
Hiroyoshi Nishizawa
Shoichi Sugita 
Eino Juutilainen
Hans Wind
Prince Constantine Cantacuzine
Erich Hartmann
Gerhard Barkhorn
Guenther Rall
Otto Kittel 

Those are just some of the names i can think of... There may be others u guys have in mind...

The 4 that stand out for me are Ivan Kozhedub, Prince Constantine Cantacuzine, Erich Hartmann, and Richard Bong...

The Best??? Probably Kozhedub... Tough call...


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## lesofprimus (Jul 30, 2004)

Russian Ace of WW11, Ivan Kozhedub (62 Confirmed Kills )was the leading Soviet and Allied Ace of WWII. Flying mainly the Lavochkin La-7 fighter aircraft, he carried out 330 sorries, was involved in 120 aerial combats and was credited with 62 confirmed victories. Earning the nickname "Ivan the Terrible", he was the only Soviet pilot to shoot down a Messerschmitt Me-262 jet fighter. Ivan was one of only two Soviet fighter pilots to be awarded the Gold Star(Hero of the Soviet Union) three times during World War II...

It is particularly noteworthy that he required only 27 encounters to pile up his kills during the course of 146 sorties, 90 of which were escorts, 39 ground force cover, 9 armed reconnaissance and 8 scrambles...

On September 22 he took off with Lejtenant Sharapov on a patrol and engaged two gaggles of Fw 190 fighter-bombers comprising of 4-8 aircraft each and shot down two of them in quick succession opening fire at 150 meters. He added another of these on January 16, 1945 while victory number 50 came on February 10...

On this day Kozhedub was carrying out a free hunt with Major Titarenko as his number two in the vicinity of the Oder River, two German fighters being seen, and Kozhedub shot down one of these. The enemy pilot made a forced landing in his crippled aircraft in a pasture and became a prisoner. It was discovered that he was an ace with eight victories but his identity has unfortunately not been established. Two days later he was off on another free hunt with Lejtenant Gromakovskij flying wing to him and while sweeping over the Konitz area they spotted 18 Fw 190s fighter bombers flying at 400 meters. They immediately swept down and Kozhedub opened fire on "tail end Charlie," seeing hits exploding all over him and pieces flying off in all directions whereupon he spun into the ground in a solid sheet of flame. He then destroyed two more in quick succession which crashed 10-12 km southwest of Konitz. Gromakovskij shot another off Kozhedub's tail for his second kill of the day...

Kozhedub is believed to have shot down one of the first Messerschmitt Me-262 jets to be encountered on Eastern Front during February but the date for this remains dubious. The date given by Kozhedub himself is the 19th while others are suggesting the 15th or 24th of February....


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## plan_D (Jul 30, 2004)

I'm going to go with Erich Hartmann, for kills alone.

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## toffi (Jul 30, 2004)

That's my vote as well. 352 and you don't have to say any more.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 30, 2004)

but as was said, you might not look for kills when looking for a great pilot................


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## plan_D (Jul 30, 2004)

But I am, over 300 is amazing. Just to have the mental durability to go through that alone is enough for me to call him the best pilot.


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## toffi (Jul 30, 2004)

Does a "not-great" pilot could score more than 300?


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## plan_D (Jul 30, 2004)

He was a crap pilot, he just scored 350+ by complete luck.


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## toffi (Jul 30, 2004)

And survived the war with luck only? Quite unbelievable, isn't it?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 30, 2004)

did i say that 300+ kills doesn't make you a good pilot??


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## plan_D (Jul 30, 2004)

You nearly did.


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 30, 2004)

No one has mentioned the best. Hans-Joachim Marseille, the Star of Africa. 158 kills - all against the Western Allies (considerably tougher than the Russian opponents Hartmann faced) and the highest of any pilot against the Western Allies. 154 of those kills were against fighter aircraft. At the time of his death, Erich Hartmann had exactly 0 kills. How many would this guy have ended up with if his 'chute had openned?


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## toffi (Jul 30, 2004)

Marseille was a very good pilot. He took all these Tomahawks, Hurricanes Spitfires out of these so easily!


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## lesofprimus (Jul 30, 2004)

LG that was some great info that I was not aware of, and that does not happen very often.. Very good post my man...


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 30, 2004)

Here's some more interesting facts about Marseille.
He once scored 17 victories in one day (3 missions scoring 4, 8, and 5 kills). One time he managed to shot down 6 fighters in a mere 7 minutes. Perhaps most impressive, on one mission his cannon jammed on the opening burst. He went on to down 5 fighters with just the two machine guns (he was flying a 109F meaning two 7.92mm weapons). Upon returning to base, his armorers found must of the ammo unused. This guy could shoot!


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## lesofprimus (Jul 31, 2004)

Nice info dude...


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## toffi (Jul 31, 2004)

Marseille was able to shot down these Tomahawks with his machine guns only, because they have set up a "defensive-ring". RAF pilots thought that their opponents won't attack (if you get behind someone's tail, the next guy in the ring will be behing your tail as well). But Marseille was smarter than British expected. He attacked only from below and shoot straight into the bellys of circling Tomahawks till his ammo ended.


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## kiwimac (Jul 31, 2004)

Hartmann shot down a Russian Plane and on returning to base found 1 Cannon-shell gone. Hell of a pilot, hell of an ace. He shot down Spits and Mustangs as well as the Russian-built machines and all from a Me 109 G.

Kiwimac


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## lesofprimus (Jul 31, 2004)

I found this inteview with Kozehdub... Here are some parts of it that make interesting readin... Kinda long, but worth the read...

AH: Your first week of combat was over the Kharkov sector, during the last great Soviet defeat prior to the decisive battle of Kursk. Allegedly, you yourself were badly shot-up during your first combat by German fighters. What was the state of morale among you and your comrades at this time? 

Kozhedub: In my first combat, I did not get a single scratch, but my plane was badly damaged. My commander said, with good reason, "Make haste only when catching fleas." I did not heed his advice. It seemed to me I could down at least two or three enemy planes at one go. Carried away by the attack, I did not notice an umbrella of Messerschmitt Bf-110s approaching me from behind. Of course, that was a bitter experience and a serious lesson for me. 

Despite general failures, our morale was quite high. Many, like myself, had their families in Nazi-occupied territory. We were all thirsting for revenge. 

AH: What was your impression of the skill and courage of your Luftwaffe opponents at this time--and later? Did you perceive any changes in their skill and élan between 1943 and 1945? 

Kozhedub: The sinister colors of the German Messerschmitt Bf-109s and Focke-Wulf Fw-190s with the drawings of cats, aces, arrows and skulls on their sides, were designed to scare Soviet pilots witless. But I didnt pay much attention to them, trying to guess as soon as possible the plans and methods of my enemy, and find weak spots in his tactics. However, I always respected the courage of the German aces. It would have been stupid to underrate the enemy, especially at the start of the war. 

After August 1943, the supremacy in the air finally went over to the Soviet pilots and, by the end of the war, we were locking horns with hastily trained youths more and more often. The onetime conceit of invincibility claimed by Göring's aces had gone up in smoke. 

AH: How did Soviet and German aircraft compare throughout the war? What type of enemy aircraft did you have a particular respect for? 

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down. 

AH: Describe a typical "day's work" for a Soviet fighter pilot. How many sorties did you normally fly per day? 

Kozhedub: The phrase "day's work" does not fit in here, for we had to fly all day long. I myself was surprised at the potential endurance of the human body in an emergency. Three to four sorties a day during an offensive was quite routine. True, one sortie would be very different from the next. 

AH: Your first success was over Kursk on July 6, 1943. What were the circumstances of that victory'? 

Kozhedub: We were ordered to attack a group of Junkers Ju-87 dive bombers. I chose a "victim" and came in quite close to it. The main thing was to fire in time. Everything happened in a twinkling. It was only on the ground, among my friends, that I recalled the details of this battle. Caution is all-important and you have to turn your head 360 degrees all the time. The victory belonged to those who knew their planes and weapons inside out and had the initiative. On July 7, I downed a second plane and, on July 8, I destroyed another two Bf-109 fighters. 

AH: The Battle of Kursk involved thousands of aircraft in a mammoth struggle for tactical control over the battlefield. What role did you and your comrades play toward the Soviet victory? 

Kozhedub: In actual fact, I had my true baptism of fire near Kursk. We escorted bombers, fought enemy fighters and neutralized air defense batteries. The battle for Kursk was a landmark in the development of the forms and methods for operational and tactical use of Soviet aviation in the war years. In its first defensive stage, our airmen flew 70,219 sorties. Tactical aviation accounted for 76 percent of the total, long-range aviation for 18 percent, and air defense fighters for six percent. During that period, they destroyed 1,500 enemy planes. Our losses were 1,000 aircraft. During the counteroffensive, our flyers made 90,000 sorties, about 50 percent of which were designed to support attacking troops, and 31 percent to achieve supremacy in the air. The enemy lost up to 2,200 planes in that time. 

AH: On May 2, 1944, you received an La-5FN specially dedicated "In the name of Hero of the Soviet Union Lt.Col. N. Koniyev." You allegedly scored eight victories in seven days flying this aircraft. How much of an improvement over the La-5 was that La-5FN? 

Kozhedub: It was, practically speaking, a simplified version of the La-5 developed in the same year, 1942. It had a boosted engine with direct fuel injection But it was important to me for different reasons. Vasily Koniyev, a beekeeper from the Bolshevik collective farm (Budarin district, Stalingrad region), bought it with his own money and asked that it be named after the nephew of the famous Marshal Vasily Konev, killed at the beginning of the war. Indeed, this plane was a lucky one for me. Out of the eight Nazi aircraft I destroyed while flying it, five were the much-vaunted Fw-190s. 

AH: How did the La-7 compare with its La-5-series predecessors? 

Kozhedub: The La-7 had top-notch flying characteristics. It was a very obedient plane, which attained a high speed by the standards of those days. I must say that the La-7, the La-9 and Yak-3 were perfect planes. Their characteristics virtually reached the ceiling for piston-engine planes. 

AH: For a wooden airplane, La-7 No. 27 must have been a sturdy and reliable airplane to serve you faithfully over 10 months of combat. What was the key to the robustness of these aircraft? 

Kozhedub: The Lavochkins were simple, reliable aircraft. I met with their designer, Semyon Lavochkin, and visited plants where they were built. He always listened attentively to all remarks. The margin of safety was so great that, while pursuing the enemy, I exceeded the estimated loads without thinking twice. I was certain that the plane wouldn't let me down. I reached speeds of 700 kilometers per hour (434 mph) and even more on it. The La-7 was an upgraded version of the quite good La-5FN, which had the M-82FN engine. Lavochkin modified the design of the airfoil, changed the locations of the aircooling intakes, and upgraded the design of the central part of the wings. 

AH: What were the circumstances of your success over the Me-262? 

Kozhedub: On February 19, 1945, 1 was on a lone-wolf operation together with Dmitry Titorenko to the north of Frankfurt. I noticed a plane at an altitude of 350 meters (2,170 feet). It was flying along the Oder at a speed that was marginal for my plane. I made a quick about-face and started pursuing it at full throttle, coming down so as to approach it from under the "belly." My wingman opened fire, and the Me-262 (which was a jet, as I had already realized) began turning left, over to my side, losing speed in the process. That was the end of it. I would never have overtaken it if it had flown in a straight line. The main thing was to attack enemy planes during turns, ascents or descents, and not to lose precious seconds. 

AH: What of your last combat, with Lieutenant Titorenko on April 19, 1945? 

Kozhedub: On the evening of April 17, we went on a lone-wolf operation over the suburbs of Berlin. All of a sudden we saw a group of 40 Fw-190s with bomb loads, flying at an altitude of 3,500 meters in our direction. We climbed to the left and flew behind them under the cover of clouds. The odds were obviously not in our favor, but we still decided to attack since the enemy aircraft were heading for our troops. At maximum speed, we approached the tail of the formation, out of the sun. I opened fire almost point-blank at the wingman of the last pair of aircraft. The first Fw-190 fell into the suburbs of the city. Several planes turned to the west, while others continued their flight. 

We decided to drive a wedge into the combat formation and break it up. Making a steep dive, we swept past enemy planes. As often happened in such cases, the Nazis thought that there were a lot of us. Confused, they started jettisoning bombs. Then they formed a defensive circle--each fighter covering the tail of the one in front of him--and began to attack us. Titorenko skillfully downed the plane that followed me. At that point, we saw our fighters and we turned for home. But suddenly, we saw yet another Fw-190 with a bomb. Apparently, the pilot had received a warning, for he made a quick dive and jettisoned his bomb over the suburbs of Berlin. But I still reached him on the recovery from his dive. The plane literally burst in the air. We made a good landing but our fuel tanks were completely empty. After that battle, I brought my personal score of downed Nazi planes to a total of 62. 

AH: In retrospect, which did you consider the better Soviet fighter design--the La-5 series or the Yak9 series? 

Kozhedub: I always preferred the La-5s and always considered them the best ones. When I was a bit younger, I often went to Monino, about 25 miles northeast of Moscow, where my La-7 is on display at the National Air Museum. I would sit in its cabin, and life would seem more cheerful. For me, it is the time machine that takes me back to my youth, to the formidable '40s. 

AH: What do you consider to have been the best fighter airplane--regardless of nationality--of World War II? 

Kozhedub: The La-7. I hope you understand why.

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## lesofprimus (Jul 31, 2004)

Date Type 
6 July 1943 1 Ju 87 
7 July 1943 1 Ju 87 
9 July 1943 2 Bf 109 (in 2 sorties) 
9 Aug 1943 1 Bf 109 
14 Aug 1943 2 Bf 109 
16 Aug 1943 1 Ju 87 
22 Aug 1943 1 Fw 190 
9 Sept 1943 1 Bf 109 
30 Sept 1943 1 Ju 87 
1 Oct 1943 2 Ju 87 
2 Oct 1943 3 Ju 87 
4 Oct 1943 1 Bf 109 
5 Oct 1943 2 Bf 109 (in 2 sorties) 
6 Oct 1943 1 Bf 109 
10 Oct 1943 1 Bf 109 
12 Oct 1943 2 Ju 87, 1 Bf 109 
29 Oct 1943 1 He 111, 1 Ju 87 
16 Jan 1944 1 Bf 109 
30 Jan 1944 1 Ju 87, 1 Bf 109 
14 March 1944 1 Ju 87 
21 March 1944 1 Ju 87 
11 April 1944 1 Bf 109 
19 April 1944 1 He 111 
28 April 1944 1 Ju 87 
29 April 1944 2 Hs 129 
3 May 1944 1 Ju 87 
31 May 1944 1 Fw 190 
1 June 1944 1 Ju 87 
2 June 1944 1 Hs 129 
3 June 1944 3 Fw 190 (in 2 sorties) 
7 June 1944 1 Bf 109 
22 Sept 1944 2 Fw 190 
25 Sept 1944 1 Fw 190 
16 Jan 1945 1 Fw 190 
10 Feb 1945 1 Fw 190 
12 Feb 1945 3 Fw 190 
19 Feb 1945 1 Me 262 
11 March 1945 1 Fw 190 
18 March 1945 2 Fw 190 
22 March 1945 2 Fw 190 
23 March 1945 1 Fw 190 
17 April 1945 2 Fw 190 

Apart from these 62 victories, Ivan Kozhedub also was forced to shoot down two U.S. P-51 Mustangs that mistakenly attacked his La-7 on one occasion. Both these P-51 losses have been verified by USAAF sources.


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## lesofprimus (Jul 31, 2004)

This is Kozhedubs La-5 FN, the one talked about in the interview...






A pic of him with said aircraft...


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## lesofprimus (Jul 31, 2004)

Here is Kozhedubs La-7, which he flew from April 1945 till the end of hostilities...




And another here that i added to library...


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## lesofprimus (Jul 31, 2004)

Here's some interesting dialogue about Hartmann...

III./JG 52's commander, Major Hubertus von Bonin, placed Hartmann under Oberfeldwebel Grislawski's wings. The miner's son Alfred Grislawski found a particular pleasure in teaching this newcomer the name of the game. He made a few mock combats with Hartmann. This relieved Hartmann of some of his ambitious ideas, but Grislawski had to admit that although Hartmann had much to learn regarding combat tactics, he actually was a quite talented pilot. 
The trouble started when they started flying combat missions together. Grislawski immediately noted that the newcomer was one of those who thought they were going to "shoot together a Knight's Cross" in no time. Hartmann barely had started to leave his place behind Grislawski's aircraft to direct his Bf 109 against an I-16, when his earphones seemed to explode: "You bloody idiot! What the hell do you think you're doing? I'm your leader! Get back in place or I'll shoot you down!" Grislawski kept cursing over the R/T all the way back to base, and when they had landed, the Oberfeldwebel gave the Leutnant a dressing down that he would never forget. Then, in front of the sweating Hartmann, Grislawski turned to his friend "Paule" Rossmann and said: "Oh man, this is too much! What a baby they have sent us! Just look at his face - like a cute little boy!" From then on, Grislawski never addressed Hartmann as anything but Bubi, "little boy".
Hartmann proved to be extremely individualistic, and von Bonin definitely knew what he was doing when he assigned a vigorous and harsh worker's son like Alfred Grislawski as his teacher. The men at Soldatskaya used to gather around the radio equipment and listen to the R/T communication with amusement when Grislawski and Hartmann were out on combat missions. 
"Are you so anxious to die, Bubi?" 
"I'm sorry, sir!" 
"Don't you 'sir' me, look after your tail instead!" 
"I'll nail you for this, Bubi!" 
"I'm sorry!" 
"Your mother will be sorry!" 

From the book "Graf Grislawski: A Pair of Aces" by Christer Bergström

Alittle more info...

In August '43 the Russians were attacking in the area and Dieter Hrabak gave the orders to support Hans Rudel and his Stukas in a counter attack. Then things changed. The Russians began bombing German ground positions in support of their offensive and Hartmann and his flight of 8 fighters was sent to attack them. About 40 Yaks and Laggs were supporting another 40 or so Sturmoviks that were busy striking ground targets. Hartmann shot down 2 before his plane was hit by "something" and he was forced to make an emergency landing. As Soviet ground troops approached the plane, Hartmann faked that he was injured. The Soviet soldiers took him to their HQ and his acting won over the doctor there as well. They put him on a stretcher and packed him into the back of a captured German truck. Waiting for the opportune moment Hartmann jumped the single gaurd just as Stukas began an attack. He jumped out the back and ran like hell. He found a large field of giant sunflowers and tried to lose the pursuing soldiers who were all the while firing wildly in his direction. He made it to a small village occupied by Russians and decided to to go back where he had been and wait for nightfall.

Hartman's 109...


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## lesofprimus (Jul 31, 2004)

As a side note....

Hartmann scored his 352 kills in 1456 missions...
Barkhorn scored his 301 kills in 1104 missions...
Rall scored his 275 kills in 621 missions...
Kittle scored his 267 kills in 563 missions...
Nowotney scored 250 kills in 442 missions...

Erich Rudorffer had 13 kills in 17 minutes....
Hans-Joachim Marseille had 17 kills in 1 day...
Kurt Welter, Highest Scoring JET Ace w/ 26 Kills (+4 prob kills)
Total of 63 Kills (in 93 missions, 56 of them night sorties)


And of course, something special for Lancaster Kicks Ass...
Heinz -Wolfgang Schnaufer, 121 kills, top German Night Fighter, claimed 9 Lancasters on 21 Feb 1945


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## lesofprimus (Jul 31, 2004)

Some more info on Rudorffer...

On August 24, 1943 he shot down 5 Russian aircraft on the first mission of the day and followed that up with three more victories on the second mission. He scored seven victories in seven minutes on October 11, but his finest achievement occurred on November 6 when in the course of 17 minutes, thirteen Russian aircraft fell to his guns! Only Emil 'Bully' Lang, another Grunherzflieger, and Hans-Joachim Marseille rival Rudorffer's mastery at multiple scoring.

Rudorffer became known to Russian pilots as the 'fighter of Libau'. Returning from a sortie on October 28, 1944 and about to land, he spotted a huge formation of Il-2 'Sturmoviks'. He quickly aborted the landing and moved to engage the armada. In less than ten minutes, nine of the heavily armored Russian planes were shot down causing the rest to flee in panic. In anti-climatic fashion, he shot down a further two Russians in an afternoon sortie...

In all, Erich Rudorffer scored a total of 222 victories, placing him 7th on the all time list. This score did not come without a cost: Rudorffer flew over 1,000 missions, never took leave, was shot down 16 times, and 'hit the silk' 9 times! Of note are the 58 Il-2 Sturmoviks included in his 136 Eastern Front victories (all while flying the Fw 190) and the 10 4-engine bombers shot down in Defense of the Reich missions.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 1, 2004)

that's a very impressive list and interview, he made downing that 262 so easy...............


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## lesofprimus (Aug 1, 2004)

Hey Lanc, did u miss my Lancaster comment up above there???


> And of course, something special for Lancaster Kicks Ass...
> Heinz -Wolfgang Schnaufer, 121 kills, top German Night Fighter, claimed 9 Lancasters on 21 Feb 1945...


Thought u might enjoy that... (wink)


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## Lightning Guy (Aug 1, 2004)

Schnaufer was something special no doubt. Flying at night was the most difficult of all environments during WWII and he scored more kills than any Allied day pilot and all but the most elite Axis pilots.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 2, 2004)

There were some extremely extroidinary indiviuals during WWII...

And I love learning about them...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 2, 2004)

to be honest (while i have a huge respect for the men that flew them) i profer to learn about the planes.................


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## The Jagdflieger Pips (Aug 2, 2004)

I'm going to say Erich Hartmann. He had an amazing amount of kills.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 2, 2004)

many against inexperienced pilots, makes you wander though, where did he put all the roundells and stars for each of the planes he shot down .............................


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## lesofprimus (Aug 2, 2004)

Alot of repainting on that rudder of his for sure...

And speakin of which, I cannot find a pic of Hartmanns tail with kills on it...

Anyone got one???


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## The Jagdflieger Pips (Aug 2, 2004)

lesofprimus said:


> Alot of repainting on that rudder of his for sure...
> 
> And speakin of which, I cannot find a pic of Hartmanns tail with kills on it...
> 
> Anyone got one???



I have an illustration in a book of the tail of his Me-109 F-4, I might be able to scan it if you're interested. It's only the tail, and he looks to have had only 107 victores. Small picture, too.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 2, 2004)

Not lookin for an illustration, a regular pic... I dont even recall seeing one...


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## The Jagdflieger Pips (Aug 2, 2004)

I actually thought I'd seen an actual one somewhere. Or that might have been a different pilot.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 2, 2004)

I find it hard to believe that such a pic isnt readily shown on the internet, or in books... What an accomplishment, even against crap ass Russian pilots... (most of em)...


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## The Jagdflieger Pips (Aug 2, 2004)

lesofprimus said:


> I find it hard to believe that such a pic isnt readily shown on the internet, or in books... What an accomplishment, even against crap ass Russian pilots... (most of em)...



Agreed.


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## plan_D (Aug 2, 2004)

Well there's another good old agreement... 

...maybe everyone was jealous of him, so they didn't take any pictures to increase his ego.  Even if he was a great propaganda instrument.


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## Lightning Guy (Aug 2, 2004)

The kill totals for the Luftwaffe ran so high that they had to do something to get them all in. Often, when a special number like 100 had been reached, the tail would be painted over the total at the time (say 100) would be painted with decortations (like a wreath) at the top of the tail, and then single kills signs would be added from there.


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## Erich (Aug 2, 2004)

hmmmmmmmmm did you know that Hartmann could not of scored his 352 without the watchful eye of his youthful wingman who himself scored over 100 victories ? Marseilles kills of 17 in a day are not certain neither are the 222 of Erich Rudorffer. I do wonder how the star of Afrika and the blonde knoight would of faired in combat with US heavy bombers and the scores of P-51's, and yes I know about hartmann's claims agasint p-51's of the 15th AF..... it is rather amazing though to think of over 11,000 kills alone scored by JG 52 that Rall, Barkhorn, and Hartmann were part of during their long careers.....

best pilot either goes to the German night fighter aces or the day fighter boyz agasint 4 enigne bombers/escorts, without a doubt the toughest flying during the whole war.

E ▼


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## lesofprimus (Aug 3, 2004)

Yea LG, I have seen some pics and some illustrations showing the tail markers... But I have never seen Hartmanns....

Erich, do u happen to have a pic laying around somewhere???

And yes, a wingman is a very important part of the game... Hartmann never lost a wingman to enemy fighter action either...


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## kiwimac (Aug 3, 2004)

Here is an early pciture of Hartmann + his Me109 with 100+ kills







http://www.adlertag.de/asse/hartmann.htm



All I can find so far.

Kiwimac


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## kiwimac (Aug 3, 2004)

Here is an early pciture of Hartmann + his Me109 with 100+ kills






http://www.adlertag.de/asse/hartmann.htm



All I can find so far.

Kiwimac


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 3, 2004)

he looks like he belongs in a barbor shop.................


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## Erich (Aug 3, 2004)

great pic Kiwimac. I've got one pic of Hartmann's wingman so I will try and find it. think he is sitting upright out of the cockpit with a profile of his face looking into the wind.............I'll do a little bio on him once I find his pic.

E


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## The Jagdflieger Pips (Aug 3, 2004)

I have a model of his plane when he had that painted on. =3 Great picture.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 3, 2004)

Great Pic Kiwi... Now if we can find one with the 300 in wreath we'd be n Bidness...

What would u can those markings... Im having trouble findin somethin on search...

Kill markings???


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## Erich (Aug 3, 2004)

they would be called victory markings on the rudder. in fact there is an old book OOP on German rudder markings... produced by Schiffer pubs on the east coast of the good ol USof A


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## lesofprimus (Aug 3, 2004)

Heres a statue of Marseille and his rudder...


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## lesofprimus (Aug 3, 2004)

Heres one at 50...


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## lesofprimus (Aug 3, 2004)

Hers a good shot for U Brits...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Aug 3, 2004)

lesofprimus said:


> Here is Kozhedubs La-7, which he flew from April 1945 till the end of hostilities...
> 
> 
> 
> ...






That's no La-7... (In the top profile)


That there is an La-5 (F? Fn?)! You can tell because the cockpit on the La-7 fairs straight into the rear fuselage, unlike in the La-5's, where it was humped...


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## lesofprimus (Aug 3, 2004)

that was the file name i downloaded...

I agree it is a -5 not a -7...


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## lesofprimus (Aug 3, 2004)

And for the record, I think that, while 352 kills is unreal, Hartmanns opposition was so sub par, and his luck so very high, that its not a great way to detemine this...

Kozhedub had to fly against some serious opposition... In an inferior aircraft...

If any German pilot should get it, it would have to be in the WTO... The competition was so much more balanced...

Who were the leading WTO Germans???


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## lesofprimus (Aug 3, 2004)

GERMANY
* means dead

Erich Hartmann 352
Gerhard Barkhorn 301
Guenther Rall 275
* Otto Kittel 267 
Theodore Weissenberger 252
Wilhelm Batz 237 
Erich Rudorffer 222 
Heinrich Bar 221
* Heinrich Ehrler 220
Hermann Graf 212
Johannes Weise 208
* Hans Philip 206 
Walter Schuck 206
Anton Hafner 204 
Helmut Lipfert 203
Walter Krupinski 197 
Anton Hackl 192 
* Maximilian Stotz 189
Joachim Brendel 189
* Joachim Kirschner 188 
Kurt Hans Friedrich Brandle 180 
Guenther Josten 178 
Johannes Steinhoff 178-176
*Albin Wolf 176
Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert 174 
Gunther Schack 174
*Emil Lang 173 
*Heinz Johnny Schmidt 173
*Horst Adameit 166
*Wolf-Dietrich Wilke 162
*Hans-Joachim Marseille 158
*Heinrich Sturm 158
Gerhard Thyben 157
*Hans Beiswenger 152
Peter Duettmann 152
Gordon Gollob 150


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## lesofprimus (Aug 3, 2004)

And what about ratio of Fighter kills to bomber kills???


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## Lightning Guy (Aug 4, 2004)

Well, shooting down a Battle or Blenhim wasn't that hard. But knocking a B-17 or B-24 out of a combat box was a very risky proposition.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 4, 2004)

I agree...


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## Erich (Aug 4, 2004)

before I konk off for a Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz and an early start to work, what are U guys/gals interested in concerning bomber kills by Luftwaffe fighters ? names and numbers of victories or ? this is a subject I am well acquainted with for the last 35 + years

E ~


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## lesofprimus (Aug 4, 2004)

Erich...

Victories would be great...

Heres a question 4 ya... More skill as an ace to shoot down a bomber or fighter??? Which means more to the question "Greatest Fighter Pilot"???


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## Lightning Guy (Aug 4, 2004)

That would depend on several things including the skill of the pilot/crew, type of fighter/bomber, and the general situation.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 4, 2004)

Historically... The leading Aces... Some had 200 kils, but only 32 fighters... SOme had 180, iwth only 20 bombers...

WHos the better fighter pilot???

Historically...


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## lesofprimus (Aug 4, 2004)

Only 8 men shot down over 100 aircraft in the WTO...

List 
Rank / First Name / Last Name / West / East / Total 

*1 
Hptm. Hans-Joachim "Jochen" Marseille 158 0 158 *
*
2 
Obstlt. Heinz "Pritzel" Bär 125 96 221 
**3 
Obstlt. Kurt Bühligen 112 0 112 

4 
GenLt. Adolf "Dolfo" Galland 104 0 104 

5 
Maj. Joachim Müncheberg 102 33 135 

6 
Maj. Werner Schroer 102 12 114 

7 
Obstlt. Egon Mayer 102 0 102 
 
8 
Obst. Josef "Pips" Priller 101 0 101 
*9 
Obst. Gustav Rödel 96 (97) 2 (1) 98 

10 
Hptm. Josef "Sepp" Wurmheller 93 9 102 

11 
Maj. Siegfried "Wurm" Schnell 90 3 93 

12 
Maj. Erich Rudorffer 86 138 224

13 
Obst. Walter Oesau 73 44 117 

14 
Hptm. Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert 71 103 174 

15 
Hptm. Siegfried Lemke 70 0 70 

16 
Oblt. Adolf "Addi" Glunz 69 3 72 

17 
Maj. Werner "Vati" Mölders 68 33 101 

18 
Maj. Georg-Peter Eder 68 10 78 

19 
Maj. Hans "Assi" Hahn 66 42 108 

20 
Maj. Anton "Toni" Hackl 61 131 192 

21 
Maj. Gerhard Homuth 61 2 63 

22 
Oblt. Herbert Rollwage 60+ 11 85~ 

23 
Maj. Gerhard Michalski 59 14 73 

24 
Lt. Hans-Arnold "Fiffi" Stahlschmidt 59 0 59 

25 
Maj. Klaus Mietusch 57 15 72 

26 
Obst. Herbert Ihlefeld 56 67 123 

27 
Oblt. Günther Seeger 56 0 56 

28 
Maj. Helmut Wick 56 0 56 

29 
Oblt. Karl-Heinz Bendert 55 0 55 

30 
Maj. Wilhelm-Ferdinand "Wutz" Galland 54 (55) 0 54 (55)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 4, 2004)

where do you get all these lists??


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## lesofprimus (Aug 4, 2004)

Mainly from my notebook, which i have been adding to since i was 12 or 13... 3 inches thick now...
Some from miscellaneous web sites with references...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 4, 2004)

wow, and how old are you now??


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## lesofprimus (Aug 4, 2004)

38...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 4, 2004)

i take it you haven't had the same notebook for the whole time??


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## lesofprimus (Aug 4, 2004)

No.. Right now its all combined and seperated into sections in a large looseleaf binder....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 4, 2004)

sounds heavy............


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## lesofprimus (Aug 4, 2004)

yes it is as a matter of fact... I also do drawings of aircraft as well.. Pretty decent... Ill try and scan one....


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## lesofprimus (Aug 4, 2004)

Heres one....


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## lesofprimus (Aug 4, 2004)

One more.. I have more if u want.... Lemme know ill put more up...


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## Lightning Guy (Aug 4, 2004)

I prefer to do sketches of my own designs for WWII bombers and fighters.


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## plan_D (Aug 5, 2004)

Those are some good drawings, Les.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 5, 2004)

Thank You...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 5, 2004)

wow, they're good, i've done a pretty good lancaster and meteor on A3 size, i have no drive to colour them though.........................


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## plan_D (Aug 5, 2004)

I suck at drawing, so I never try except when I did a MiG-21.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 5, 2004)

Ok Heres some more I scanned in...
Obviously the whole pic dont fit on my scanner so.....


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## Lightning Guy (Aug 6, 2004)

I like the drawing of the P-38.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 6, 2004)

I bet u do...... ty...


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## plan_D (Aug 6, 2004)

You've got lots of talent, those are very good. I like the Phantom one. 8)


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## lesofprimus (Aug 6, 2004)

Figures outta all the ones i post u pick a jet......


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## plan_D (Aug 6, 2004)

Excuse me, I liked them all very much. I just like the F-4 in general anyway. And if anyone can tell me how you can tell a British Phantom from an American one while in flight...then..erm...well can anyone tell me? 

Draw a F.6 Lightning.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 6, 2004)

i would look at them but i'd be sitting here on a dial-up waiting forever for them to lad, but i'm sure they're very good.....................



> And if anyone can tell me how you can tell a British Phantom from an American one while in flight



a british one will have british marking, an american one will have american markings......................


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## plan_D (Aug 6, 2004)

At 5000ft up, I doubt you'll see the markings.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 6, 2004)

you never mentioned the height, so my point is still a valid one................


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## plan_D (Aug 6, 2004)

OK. If you are stood on a runway in the ex-RAF Finningley airbase and two Phantoms fly over at 5000ft straight above you. They have no markings on it. And you watch them fly over, how can you tell which is British and which is American? 


Bumhole...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 6, 2004)

> Bumhole...



sounds like somewhere homeless people live....................


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## plan_D (Aug 6, 2004)

You live there then... 


...oh, cheap shot.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 6, 2004)

very very cheap...........................


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## toffi (Aug 6, 2004)

>>>this one's mine, i used to sign my pics "icefish"


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## lesofprimus (Aug 6, 2004)

planD.. I was jokin man.... Ur siggy is a jet.....

Gotta lighten up bud.... The world is a humorous place....


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## I./JG53_lud13 (Aug 6, 2004)

Hi all....

Great topic i must admit
First of all I woted for Harrtmann of course.

He start to fly operationaly in 7./JG52 on 10 October 1942. That means more than half WWII alredy gone and war become much much worse on Eastern front too. So stories off easy times in Russia for Harrtmann are very hard to be......His first kill came on his 19th sortie ,an IL-2 that also downed the Harrtmann himself by debrises.....His kill No5 came on his 68 sortie a Po-2. So You can see he was not some superhero pilot ..he was a great tactician befor all. 
He had made his own combat rules. See..Decide..Attack or Coffie break. 
"First see your enemy , than look at tactical situation its not nesecery too attack as soon as u see enemy. Look how many of htem are, how they fly, look for stragleers etc. Than if u decide it safe to attack do it fast and as close as possible. When u think is close go even closer. 150m..100m..50..fire. Go up and look situation again etc. In his own words " I am sure that 70% of my victims even didnt know i was there before it was too late for them."
As for the wingman he sad that if u score i kill in a dogfight and come back home without your wingman u have lost the battle. Hartmann did loose only one wingman Gunther Capito ( who was by the way transerd from bomber unit )but was lucky to survive when he go ito standard bomber turn in a middle off dogfight with Aircobras.
And YES..he did shoot down 7 P-51s (by the way only sheer numbers of 30-40 to1, gave the edge Mustangs over Bf 109G/K with MW50....the pilots have the order not to tackle the escorts..what a stupid order by the way ) and a great number of Westrn made aircraft . Graet majority of his victories was fighters LA-5 being one of the most involved. If u want I can scan his list of victories. Up to 150 kills is complet after that only fragments. I hear from many people that German scoreboards are pure Nazi propaganda...Take Harrtmann for example : 352 kills ok Lets say he overclaimed 20% in good fate..dameged, trailed smoke etc..Ok even 30% is way ahead of any allied pilot . But remeber there was no rest for German fighter pilots. Allied pilots fly 50 to 100 missions and thats it (not in battle of Britain and voluntiers ) and home he go. But for Russians and Germans not. Fly until u get kill, woundied or right to the end of the war.
So imagine German fighter pilot in 1944/45 who downed his first wictim over Spain or Poland now with more than 1000 combat missions flying the same aircraft as than ( I mean Bf 109, or Fw190 )...Yes he is sure tired from war and flying but imagine his expiriance. They died too!! Some where shoot even more than 10 times, so you must include and luck in their sucsess. 

I am not saying the Germans where better pilots than Russian, Americans or Brits..they too had great pilots.


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## I./JG53_lud13 (Aug 6, 2004)

Loool
I used Harrtmann instead of Hartmann...SHAME ON ME


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## lesofprimus (Aug 6, 2004)

I truley belive that there were better fighter pilots than Hartmann... If he flew in the WTO, his score wouldnt be what it is, and he woulda been shot down many more times than he did...

But he is definatly Top 3... Who the other 2 are up to argument...


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## Lightning Guy (Aug 6, 2004)

Marseille as #1. Perhaps Molders as #2. 

I believe the order to not tangle with the Allied escorts was a viable one. First of all, P-38s, -47s, -51s were not blasting German industry into little bitty bits; B-17s and B-24s were. Therefore it was more important to stop the bombers than the fighters. Also, the Luftwaffe was taking considerable losses by engaging Allied fighters. But I do believe the Germans did employ 190s and 109s to escort the more heavily armed bomber-destroyers, didn't they?


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## plan_D (Aug 7, 2004)

Les, my sig isn't any old jet. It's the Lightning... 

So no one knows how to tell the difference between the Phantoms, it's the exhaust fumes. The American engines were really dirty while the Rolls-Royce Spey Engines were clean. The American Phantoms leave a trail of black behind them.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 7, 2004)

> Les, my sig isn't any old jet. It's the Lightning...



he's not british, he wouldn't understand how sackred the lightning is..................


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## plan_D (Aug 7, 2004)

Well he should, it was the only thing in Western Worlds arsenal until the Phantom that could reach the altitude of the Soviet bombers.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 7, 2004)

and it's arguably the greatest interceptor of all time....................


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## plan_D (Aug 7, 2004)

Well it definately was the best interceptor of its day, it's day being 30 years from first flight to being out-dated.


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## Lightning Guy (Aug 7, 2004)

Given the emphasis being placed on multi-mission capability today, it is unlikely that any more pure interceptors will be built.


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## plan_D (Aug 8, 2004)

Mulit-role, jack of all trades;master of none. Although the Eagle airframe does it well. That's probably the best interceptor these days, but you don't really need aircraft for it anymore.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 8, 2004)

well remember the lightnig was around in a time when the goverment was gonna ditch aircraft alltogether and use only missiles (a really stupid idea) showing how important the aircraft was.......................


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## plan_D (Aug 8, 2004)

In 1947 missiles weren't exactly the standard of today though. Aircraft will always be needed, but since most of todays wars are on inferior nations then aircraft for interceptor duties are falling down the priority chain.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 8, 2004)

well as someone said, today they want multi-role aircraft, not specailist ones..........................


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## plan_D (Aug 8, 2004)

Multi-role aircraft are stupid though. Multi-role airframes are alright, like the Eagle airframe.


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## Lightning Guy (Aug 9, 2004)

Aircraft today have to be mulit-role capable as no air force (even the US) can afford to buy specific combat aircraft to fulfill one particular combat mission.


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## plan_D (Aug 9, 2004)

Even the U.S? B-52 - Bomber. A-10 - Ground Attack. F-15E - Fighter. B-2 - Bomber...see where I'm going with this? The U.S has specific aircraft because aircraft with one task is better at that task than a multirole aircraft. The Eagle airframe is multirole because you've got the Eagle and Strike Eagle on the same airframe.


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## toffi (Aug 9, 2004)

All these mentioned by plan_D joined USAF many years ago. Right now there is a tendency to put every possible task into one aircraft.


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## plan_D (Aug 9, 2004)

The B-2 and F-15 were both in the days of the multi-role thinking. They both prove that multi-role aircraft are inferior in specific tasks. If these planes were not capable, or even superior, then why would they keep them around. 

No one aircraft alone can be the master of all trades. The B-2 is a better bomber than the F/A-18. The A-10 is a better ground attack aircraft than the F-22. The B-52 can only be matched in carpet bombing by the B-2, another bomber. The F-15E surpasses all but the F/A-22 in the fighter role. 

Multi-Role aircraft are a jack of all trades, a master of none.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 9, 2004)

but it's cheaper to but one aircraft that is alright-ish at all tasks than 3 or 4 that do different roles really well...................


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## Lightning Guy (Aug 9, 2004)

How about the JSF? F/A-18? F/A-22 has been mentioned. Virtually every aircraft CURRENTLY under development is being designed to fill more than one role.


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## plan_D (Aug 10, 2004)

Obviously you don't understand a single thing I have said. I NEVER said that aircraft under current development were not multi-role, I stated that the multi-role aircraft is inferior in one task to an aircraft that is designed for that task.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 10, 2004)

which is what i said, or were you having a go at LG??


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## plan_D (Aug 10, 2004)

LG.


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## Lightning Guy (Aug 10, 2004)

I would agree with that but the simple fact is that nation's can no longer afford to develop mission-specific aircraft.


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## plan_D (Aug 11, 2004)

No one denied that fact.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 11, 2004)

we just said that nowadays air forces look for many different roles, just look at the tornado....................


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## plan_D (Aug 11, 2004)

And no one ever denied that. So why is it being dragged on!?! I'd rather not look at the Tornado, it's crap.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 11, 2004)

i like it......................


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## plan_D (Aug 11, 2004)

It's crap. What kind of aircraft needs re-heat to get off the ground!?! I'll tell you, the Tornado.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 11, 2004)

that's the italian part of the design.....................


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## plan_D (Aug 11, 2004)

I see you've noticed the failings in the Tornado then. 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 11, 2004)

yes, part of it was designed by the italians.....................


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## plan_D (Aug 11, 2004)

I know, but that's not the only reason it's crap. I have to say most of the reason though.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 11, 2004)

i don't actually think the engines are italain though.....................


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## plan_D (Aug 11, 2004)

Turbo-Union Mk.101 in RAF GR.1. Italy only had 15% of the production.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 11, 2004)

and suprise suprise, they're the parts that don't work ...................


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## plan_D (Aug 11, 2004)

There's no lacking parts exactly, the parts just don't go together. The way it is fitted, must be wrong. But this is on the originals, I hope at least on these newest versions they've sorted out most of the problems. 

The fact that RAF pilots are not allowed by regulation to take off dry because it is unsafe could be anything. It's too heavy, it's engines can't take the weight. But the thing is it is a fast aircraft...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Aug 11, 2004)

Actually, the AMX is quite good and it was a cooperative venture between Italy and Brasil.


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## plan_D (Aug 12, 2004)

...why do I find that hard to believe? The Tornado is still crap.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Aug 12, 2004)

Well, look at it as a modern '262 in the take-off department, its engines simply don't have enough power...


It is quite fast, however, and looks very nice.


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## plan_D (Aug 12, 2004)

Is this the Tornado, or the other thing?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 12, 2004)

i still like the tornado......................


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## plan_D (Aug 12, 2004)

Good for you.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 13, 2004)

indeed.......................


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## lesofprimus (Aug 14, 2004)

Back to the Poll... Hartmann is runnin away with this poll.....

Anyone else better than Hartmann??? Theres been several other names thrown in, besides the poll guys...

Hans-Joachim Marseille... Heinrich Bartels... Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer... Gerhard Barkhorn... Adolf Galland... Heinz "Pritzel" Bär... Werner "Vati" Mölders... Hiroyoshi Nishizawa... Tetsuzo Iwamoto... David McCampbell... Francis Gabreski... Thomas McGuire...

Sure there more to add to the choices... It really is a hard decision to make... Any other names to throw in???


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## GermansRGeniuses (Aug 14, 2004)

Ehm...


Baron Manfred Von Richtofen?


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## lesofprimus (Aug 14, 2004)

Ahem....

WW II Fighter Ace......


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## GermansRGeniuses (Aug 14, 2004)

Hmm....


I go with Marsielle.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 14, 2004)

I think ull find that to be the popular answer...

I still feel Kozhedub was the best... The quality of his opposistion, being the leading Allied Ace, and the state of Russias situation, makes him stand out like a sore thumb for me...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Aug 14, 2004)

Well, Franz Stigler then...


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## lesofprimus (Aug 14, 2004)

Oberleutnant Franz Stigler flew just over 500 combat missions, was shot down 17 times, captured once briefly and had 28 confirmed victories to his credit, including 11 four-engine bombers, plus over 30 other “probables”... 

He didnt even recieve the Knights Cross...

Kinda wierd ud throw his name into the mix...


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## Gemhorse (Sep 13, 2004)

I think it all depends on your definition, 'Greatest Fighter Pilot'....Sure a Fighter Pilot's job is to down enemy aircraft and attack selected targets, but the scoreboard aspect isn't necessarily the grounds for 'Greatness'....When you look at someone like Galland, who had a reasonable score, he struck me as a great German Fighter Pilot because of his leadership....He was ostracized by High Command because, as we all know, they were all kissing-ass to the 'Higher Command', to carry-out their impossible orders, and Galland stood up to them on behalf of his pilots....Of the books I've read of Fighter Pilots, it was the WAY they lead that garners 'Greatness', and memories held by those that served under them, that is really important. - Imagine if you will, being a young pilot fresh outa training assigned to a Squadron, lead by a 'Great Fighter Pilot', and a few sorties into it, and these great ones are off clocking-up their score, leaving you to tag along....The training in those days were hurried, and a complaint in the RAF was a lack of Gunnery Practice in those days...In my mind, and reading, it was those Leaders who took the extra time to upskill Squadron newcomers, that were GREAT. - Afterall, this is what Air Combat is about, and leaving young pilots to fend for themselves or just play wingman is bordering on negligent homicide, without full, up-to-date additional on-the-job training....With Leadership comes responsibility....alot of the Top Scorers were 'loners', if you want to read about them.....


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## Lightning Guy (Sep 13, 2004)

Well consider the quality of Marseille's opposition. All of his kills were scored against the Western Allies and 154 of his 158 vitocries were over fighters.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Sep 13, 2004)

Les, read this: http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/pilots/stigler/stigler.htm


That's why.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 13, 2004)

Marseille definatly ranks as one of the best...

What about Werner Molders??? On Oct 22nd, 1940, he downed three RAF Hurricanes to become the first Luftwaffe pilot to reach a score of 50... By the end of the BoB he had a total of 54 Kills...
He was the first pilot to beat Richthofens WW I record score of 80 kills on June 30th, 1941, when he shot down 5 SB-2 bombers to score his 78th to 82nd victories... On July 15th, he became the first pilot in aviation history to record 100 Kills.... He was immediately forbidden to fly combat missions on the orders of Göring... He personally instructed many pilots on how to achieve success, and helped develop the forward air controller concept...

He flew a total of some 330 missions during the Second World War, 100 of these on the Eastern Front, during which he shot down a total of 101 aircraft, 33 of these in the East... He also was the top scorer of the Legion Condor in Spain with 14 victories achieved in some 100 missions, and helped develop many of the modern fighter tactics still in use today...
(He was shot down quite a few times tho, removing him from my top 3 list)...

This guy kinda fits Gemhorses criteria...

But I still think either Kozhedub, Nishizawa or Marseille are the Top 3....


----------



## lesofprimus (Sep 13, 2004)

Well, I read all 7 pages.. That was a great read thank you... He sounds like a great guy...

But it still doesnt prove anyting to me about him being the greatest of all time... He let a wounded -17 fly home... Something he would have been court martialed for, or even shot... 

Pity is NOT a virtue that should be nutured or promoted to fighter pilots....


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## GermansRGeniuses (Sep 13, 2004)

Still, while not THE best pilot, he was a great pilot.

Those kills were against Western allies, not the Soviets...


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## lesofprimus (Sep 13, 2004)

Being able to fly just about any plane in the German Luftwaffe DEFINATLY labels him as a great pilot....


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 14, 2004)

but they didn't have a huge variety of different types..................


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## lesofprimus (Sep 14, 2004)

Did u read that interview??? This guy musta flown 100 different aircraft, if not more, including alot of captured aircraft....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 14, 2004)

damn, i didn't read the interview..............


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## Gemhorse (Sep 14, 2004)

Yeah, thanks les, that's the sorta guy I mean....another comes to mind...[can't find the book, the missus has moved them] but Johannes Steinhoff was Commander of JG77, ended-up flying Me-262's with Galland, took over from him for awhile when he was wounded, but survived the War with a reasonable score....I suppose it's important too that they did survive, 'greatest' applies more when they can live to write and talk about it, as Erich can probably testify to, with researching and writing a book on these topics....I'm trying a similar thing, [although abit late really, they're all so old now, these chaps], but with Aviation Art, creating paintings of historic events from their experiences....


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## Lightning Guy (Sep 14, 2004)

I think surviving can be overplayed in a discussion of the greatest pilot. A lot of great pilots were killed in accidents, by ground-fire, or by other things that can best be attributed to chance. Marseille was killed when he was knocked unconsious while attemping to bail out of his fighter. I hardly think this freak accident degrades his status as a pilot.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 14, 2004)

I agree with u there LG...

Another example is an experienced pilot flying a -262, gets shot down while trying to land that beast, by a green rook with 19 combat missions and 2 kills....


----------



## Gemhorse (Sep 15, 2004)

Hmmm, yeah, fair comment guys...but then there were pilots like Capt. Eric Brown who was a Fleet Air Arm pilot who had a small score, but his contribution was huge in flight-testing ALL types of aircraft, of all nations...


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## Lightning Guy (Sep 15, 2004)

Dan Roberts (one of the leading aces in the Pacific at the time of his death) was killed when his wingman was too slow reacting to a turn Roberts was attempting to stay with a target. The two aircraft collided and both were killed. I guess you could argue that Roberts died because he was TOO good.


----------



## lesofprimus (Sep 15, 2004)

Or his wingman was a meatball moron....

One ting to point out on this topic, is that when interviewed, just about every Japanese ace commented on how Hiroyoshi Nishizawa could fly his aircraft...
Many were stunned at his abilities and skill.... 
He would put on aerial acrobatics shows that would boggle the minds of some of the Greatest pilots Japan had... 

Pilots such as Saburo Sakai, Tetsuzo Iwamoto, Satoshi Anabuki, and Shoichi Sugita all claimed that Nishizawa was the greatest pilot the have ever seen.... That definatly means something....


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## Lightning Guy (Sep 15, 2004)

Plenty of American aces said the same type of things about McGuire. They claim he could do things with a P-38 that were virtually impossible.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 15, 2004)

i would have been more impressed whaching a zero...................


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## lesofprimus (Sep 15, 2004)

McGuire was a glory hound..... And if I'm not mistaken, when he died with his wingman, he was engaged in combat with none other than Shoigi Sugita himself... Ill check on that one....

McGuire's hope of forty victories was never realized.... Attacking a Zeke at tree-top altitude over Negros Island on 7 Jan 1945, he entered a high speed stall and crashed into the jungle....

Of all the World War II aces, Thomas B. McGuire, Jr. stands out of the crowd for one reason: he openly lusted for the fame that would come with being a leading ace, and thereby the best pilot.... In the American and British air forces, there is a tradition of modesty regarding this goal.... 

No one will ever accuse a man like Chuck Yeager of lack of ego, but it is kept in public check behind an "aw shucks, I was just doin' the job" attitude.... McGuire's lust for fame and glory would make him America's Number Two ace of all time, with 38 victories behind the 40 of his great rival, Richard I. Bong, but it would also insure he could never become Number One.... Perhaps this is the poetic justice of the universe at work...

McGuire made up for that as soon as he could climb into "Pudgy V." By 13 Dec 1944, his score was 31.... That was the week Bong scored his 40th and was removed from operations by General Kenney to go home to the U.S.A. and be awarded the Medal of Honor... On Christmas Day, McGuire scored victories 37 and 38 - putting him only two behind Bong - and was grounded by General Kenney until Bong could get home and receive his hero's welcome... Military Politics at its finest...

Allowed back in the air on Jan 7, 1945, McGuire was out for blood... Leading a flight of 4, he spotted a lone "Zero" low over the jungle of Negros Island... He had always preached never to get low, slow and heavy with the P-38, but this time he didn't let go his drop tanks... He saw the "Zero" as an easy kill, and with it and one more he would tie Bong... He made the fatal decision to keep his tanks, make the bounce, and continue the hunt... Not the smartest thing to do....

Unfortunately for McGuire, the pilot he attacked was NAP 1/c Soichi Sugita, at that time the top-scoring surviving IJN ace with 80-odd kills scored over Rabaul, a master at the controls of a "Zero"... In the ensuing fight, Sugita managed to shoot down one of McGuire's wingmen, and severely damage the other two. He then went after McGuire... Low over the jungle, heavy with fuel, McGuire stalled out trying to get away from Sugita and crashed to his death, a pointed example of the dark side of the lust for fame and glory.... 

The USAAF couldn't admit the truth about the real nature of their Number Two ace.... The official account of McGuire's demise has his flight attacked by a lone Zero, which shot down his junior wingman and damaged the other two, who only escaped with their lives when McGuire came to their rescue and tangled with the "Zero", only to stall over the jungle and crash.... For this selfless act, "above and beyond the call of duty," McGuire was awarded a posthumous Medal of Honor.... McGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey is named in his honor....

More Military Politics at its very best.....

Sugita was killed on 15 April 1945 by LCdr Robert "Doc" Weatherup of VF-46. Capt Genda ordered a scramble when enemy aircrafts were approaching Kanoya. However, they arrived sooner than expected, and he gave orders for the standby pilots to abord takeoff. However, Sugita and his wingman, Toyomi Miyazawa either ignored the abort order or didn't get it. Both jumped into their aircraft as Hellcats became strafing and rocket bombing the airfield. Sugita managed to take off, reached about 400 feet, and Weatherup circled and got on his tail. The George was hit and Sugita nosed over and exploded. Then Weatherup took care of Miyazawa.


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## Lightning Guy (Sep 16, 2004)

Not exactly true. McGuire was not attempting to avoid Sugita but was attempting to pull enough lead to shoot Sugita off of another P-38's tail when he went in. Interestingly, despite the incredibly low altitude, McGuire had managed to right his Lightning and was initiating a pull out when he ran out of room. I do not deny the man was an egomaniac, but he knew how to fly.


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## MichaelHenley (Sep 17, 2004)

Bong's the only one I know, so I voted for him. I've made his P-38J too.


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## Lightning Guy (Sep 17, 2004)

Bong was a great pilot, but probably not the greatest (though I consider him my favorite). Interestingly, Col. Charles MacDonald, commander of the 475th FG (who had flown with both Bong and McGuire) said that Col. Neal Kirby was the best pilot he ran into during the war.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 17, 2004)

Seeing how many believe the P-51D was the best plane and in order to supply as much info as I can, here is a listing of P-51 Aces and their totals.... Shown are victories ONLY in the Mustang...

23.83 George Preddy Jr.
21 John Voll
21 John Meyer
18.5 Glenn Eagleston
18.5 Leonard Carson
17.5 John England
17 Ray Wetmore
17 James Varnell Jr
16.5 Don Gentile
16.25 Clarence Anderson Jr
15.5 Richard Peterson
15.5 Don Beerbower
15.5 Samuel Brown
15 Bruce Carr
15 Jack Bradley
14.5 William Whisner
14 John Herbst
14 Edward McComas
14 Wallace Emmer
13.83 John Godfrey
13.83 Donald Bochkay
13 Ralph Hofer
13 Robert Stephens
13 James Brooks
13 Robert Curtis
13 Harry Parker
13 Clyde East

I think that there was some special circumstances concerning opinions of pilots....
A P-51 Pilot will undoubtably say that another P-51 pilot was the best pilot, just like a P-38 pilot would say that another P-38 pilot was the best...


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## Lightning Guy (Sep 17, 2004)

MacDonald (a P-38 pilot) said Kirby (a P-47 pilot) was the best.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 17, 2004)

Hmmmm.... Interesting....


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## 1539ram (Sep 28, 2004)

i just spent a half hour typing what i feel on this subject only to apparently have it lost after spending time logging in to this site and i am not going to do it all over again ... anyone interested in franz stigler can contact me at [email protected] ... thanks, ron


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## evangilder (Sep 28, 2004)

I heard that Bong flew like the plane was an extension of himself, but he flew very conservatively. He knew the limits of the airplane and rarely, if ever flew beyond them. McGuire was the antithesis of Bong. Bong was a quiet thinker. McGuire was a risk taker and pretty vocal. Kind of like a camparison of Captain Kirk and Captain Picard (Sorry, Star Trek reference).


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## plan_D (Sep 28, 2004)

Too right you apologise for the Star Trek reference. You should have used Erwin Rommel and Montgomery as a reference. Rommel being the risk taker.


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## johnny (Sep 28, 2004)

Surely any pilot is only called an Ace because of his kills.I dont know of any pilot who got medals for being a good pilot an not an ace.


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## Lightning Guy (Sep 28, 2004)

Try every bomber pilot ever decorated.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 28, 2004)

Bong routinely flew his aircraft beyond the stress limits of his aircraft... Several of his wingmen had to get replacement planes because the rivets were stretched and poppin out...

McGuire was a cocky sumbizitch... He was so full of himself, that when Charles Lindbergh was rooming in his tent, he used to order him around and make him fetch things for him... When he made Captain, he wouldnt allow anyone to call him Mac anymore, just Captain McGuire.... No one liked him personally, and the feeling was probably mutual....


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## Lightning Guy (Sep 28, 2004)

That is partially true. As an individual, McGuire was not well liked. As a pilot he was admired and as a commander he was deeply appreciated.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Sep 28, 2004)

Hey D, didja know Rommel's son is still alive?


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## Gemhorse (Sep 28, 2004)

Yeah, I've read that bit about McGuire and Lindbergh somewhere.....Speaking of P-51 pilots, what about Don Blakeslee, I read about him and I recall Bud Anderson had high praise for him too.....
- And yeah, Rommel's son is Manfred.....


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## plan_D (Sep 28, 2004)

No I didn't. I doubt Manfred Rommel has the ability of his father, armour and infantry tactics isn't genetic.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 29, 2004)

> As a pilot he was admired and as a commander he was deeply appreciated.


This is absolutly correct....


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## GermansRGeniuses (Sep 29, 2004)

I doubt it too, D...

Just a fact to be stated, saw him on the History Channel today, earlier...


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## plan_D (Sep 29, 2004)

I bet that was a good conversation starter, or chat up line. "HEy, hi, I'm Rommels son"


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## GermansRGeniuses (Sep 29, 2004)

plan_D said:


> I bet that was a good conversation starter, or chat up line. "HEy, hi, I'm Rommels son"



Or he could be really cheesy and say something on the lines of "Hey, my dad was a general in the army, but what I want to command is YOU!"


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## plan_D (Sep 29, 2004)

Hah! Brilliant. The main problem with that is, it'd work in Britain!!


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## Gemhorse (Sep 29, 2004)

I have Rommel's book and after Hitler's goons offered him suicide or a trial for treason, as he was wrongfully accused of being in on the 'Valkyrie' plot attempt to kill Adolf, he chose to shoot himself, and Hitler gave him a Hero's funeral, which Rommel's wife Magda and son Manfred HAD to attend... [and pretend] that it was all kosher....Shame on Hitler, because Rommel may have made the Allies D-Day invasion real hard work, but they arrested him right before the Invasion.......


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## Lightning Guy (Sep 29, 2004)

I believe Rommel's suicide was via cynide and not a gunshot.


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## plan_D (Sep 29, 2004)

No they didn't. Rommel was present, and in charge during the invasion. Not on the 6th June because he was visiting his wife, as it was her 50th Birthday. 

Rommel was completely wrong during the invasion anyway. He placed the armoured divisions right behind the Atlantic Wall. He should have used them as Motorised Reserve, then they would have reached any trouble spots much quicker. Guderian advised him to do this, but Rommel refused. 
Rommel was a risk taker, and luckily for him his opponents in the desert were cautious. If they had been a bit more aggressive he would have been defeated many a time.


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## Lightning Guy (Sep 29, 2004)

They weren't able to deploy the Panzers behind the Atlantic wall and they could only be moved on Hitler's expressed orders. Rommel knew full well the capabilities of Allied airpower and knew that the required movements of a reserve Panzer force would expose them to countless attack sorties and considerable losses before they even engaged the Allies. His reasoning was that it was better to have some tanks in the right place then all the tanks in the wrong place. I believe he was right.


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## plan_D (Sep 29, 2004)

Wrong, the Panzers were ordered by the Atlantic Wall at Calais on Rommels orders. There was always the option before the invasion to move them back as a mobile reserve. He did not. Guderian tried his hardest to change Rommels mind but he wasn't having it. The flaw was Rommels and Rommels alone. 

You believe he was right yet they failed. Rommel was too afraid of Allied Airpower and was never willing after 1943 to commit acts of brilliance that some would say he did in the desert. I'd advise you to read Panzer Battles by Maj. Gen. von Mellenthin. He was Chief of Staff to Rommel in the desert and reports of his actions during the Normany campaign. 

Now the greatest generals of the Germany army were Guderian, Manstein and Balck.


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## Gemhorse (Sep 29, 2004)

Aye, but he was still one of the most honourable soldiers to serve Germany, and he hated the Nazis.....


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## plan_D (Sep 29, 2004)

That is very true "The Last Knight" as a title serves him well. He was an excellent General and adapted to armoured conflict well, the fear let him down after 1943. 

His victories in the desert were quite lucky, and many a time a crisis occured but he was always cool and calm. Excellent perks of a General.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 29, 2004)

You are wrong about the panzers dude....
 
The only high-command officer who responded correctly to the crisis at hand was Field Marshal Rundstedt, the old man who was there for window dressing and who was so scorned by Hitler and OKW. Two hours before the seaborne landings began, he ordered the two reserve panzer divisions available for counterattack in Normandy, the 12th SS Panzer and Panzer Lehr, to move immediately toward Caen. He did so on the basis of an intuitive judgment that the airborne landings were on such a large scale that they could not be a mere deception maneuver (as some of his staff argued) and would have to be reinforced from the sea. The only place such landings could come in lower Normandy were on the Calvados and Cotentin coasts. He wanted armor there to meet the attack. 

Rundstedt's reasoning was sound, his action decisive, his orders clear. But the panzer divisions were not under his command. They were in OKW reserve. To save precious time, Rundstedt had first ordered them to move out, then requested OKW approval. OKW did not approve. At 0730 Jodi informed Rundstedt that the two divisions could not be committed until Hitler gave the order, and Hitler was still sleeping. Rundstedt had to countermand the move-out order. Hitler slept until noon. 

The two panzer divisions spent the morning waiting. There was a heavy overcast; they could have moved out free from serious interference from Allied aircraft. It was 1600 when Hitler at last gave his approval. By then the clouds had broken up and Allied fighters and bombers ranged the skies over Normandy, smashing anything that moved. The panzers had to crawl into roadside woods and wait under cover for darkness before continuing their march to the sound of the guns.

Put that in ur pipe and smoke it....


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## plan_D (Sep 29, 2004)

You are wrong. Field Marshal von Runstedt was the overall commander in the West. Field Marshal Rommel was the commander of the Atlantic wall, assigned to Runstedt. Rommel requested to Runstedt his ideas of keeping the Panzer divisions behind the wall, which Rundstedt approved. Both can be blamed for the fatal flaw. 

What happened on the 6th June is not what is in question. The time before the 6th June is. The Panzer divisions were already in the wrong place by 6th June and any counter-attack would have been slow in materilising. 

Col. Gen. Guderian chief of the OKH requested to both Commander of the West (von Runstedt) and Rommel to rethink their plan. They refused under the basis that Allied airpower would prevent any movement. Their fear prevented any kind of movement. 
Had all the Panzer divisions been in mobile reserve some 20-50 miles behind the lines scattered along France and counter-attack would have been instant. 

Rommel also left Panzer divisions in the South and South West of France expecting an attack on the Med coast. These would have been more useful up north. 

Again, I advise you and LG to read Panzer Battles and Panzer Leader.


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## plan_D (Sep 29, 2004)

You think you're so smart, obviously. Two Panzer divisions left waiting, do you know how many were in the West when D-Day occured? 

There were 10 Panzer and Panzergrenider Divisions:

1st SS-Panzer
2nd-Panzer
116th-Panzer
12th SS-Panzer
21st-Panzer
Panzer-Lehr
17th SS-Panzergrenider
11th Panzer
2nd SS-Panzer
9th-Panzer

11th and 21st Panzer both elite-veteran units from the East. 
And that's not including the 48 infantry divisions plus IX and X SS-Panzer divisions that were being brought in from the East. 

Where were the 8 other Panzer divisions, I'll tell you. In the South of France and stuck behind the wall at Calais. Both removing the Panzers greatest strenght, mobility, by a fear of enemy airpower. If Guderian had been allowed to have his way, the Allies would have never made it off the beaches.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 29, 2004)

I'd rather read books on Aircraft and Aces of WW II than about armour... If i want info on tanks, i read on the internet... 

The section I quoted above is from book... So I'm not wrong.... I think we may be talking about 2 different things.. LG and I are referring to the actions during the landings at Normandy, not before...

I agree with u tho, if the Panzers were set out along the obvious threat axis of a beach assault, and ordered to attack, it might have made somewhat of a difference...


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## plan_D (Sep 29, 2004)

I was talking about the actions before 6th June. It was Rommels idea to 'hide' the Panzers behind the wall. Those two divisions left waiting, is true (obviously) but it does not count for the complete lack of counter-offensive which could have been done by 10 Panzer divisions. 

Rommel was wrong but not everyone can be right all the time. Even Guderian made mistakes when commanding 2nd Panzer Army in Russia. He had a chance to admit his mistakes, unfortunately Rommel did not.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 29, 2004)

OK glad we cleard that up before we got too far.....

10 divisions would have been alot, and I mean ALOT of trouble for the Allies in Normandy... Could the Allies have broken through with Shermans and Airpower???

We'll never know....


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## plan_D (Sep 29, 2004)

Not only were there 10 Panzer Divisions, but 48 Infantry Divisions too. On top of that the 11th and 21st Panzer Divisions were the elite of the Wehrmacht. On top of that the IX and X SS-Panzer Divisions were on their way. 

Unfortunately (for Germany) the Commander in Chief of the West (von Rundstedt) and Rommel were both too afraid of the Allied aircraft. I don't think the Allies could not have broken through if the counter-offensive was straight away with the 10 Panzer Divisions. All the new equipment was going to these divisions too.


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## kiwimac (Sep 29, 2004)

I wonder how we got from the "Greatest Fighter pilot of WW2" to Rommel and tanks at the D-Day invasion. Perhaps this thread would be better split off? Or has it finished?

Kiwimac


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 29, 2004)

i think it's just split into atleast 2 conversations..........


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## kiwimac (Sep 29, 2004)

Kiwimac


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## cheddar cheese (Sep 30, 2004)

Thats the thing, as soon as the thread gets split off both topics die 

I havent actually voted in this poll yet, so ill go with Richard Bong. 8)


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## lesofprimus (Oct 1, 2004)

Can i ask u a question??? 

Who do u think flew against tougher opposistion...
Kozhedub vs. German Aces, or Bong vs. Japanese Studen... I mean Aces...

Which aircraft vs aircraft comparison is a greater disadvantage...
La-5 vs Bf-109G, or P-38J vs Ki 43 I Hayabusa (Oscar)...

One guy had 62 victories and flew to wars end, the other was sent home after 40...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 1, 2004)

wow that post made no sence to me...............


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 1, 2004)

Made sense to me cos it was directed at me 8) I voted based on my favourite


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## lesofprimus (Oct 1, 2004)

Didnt answer a single question.....


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 2, 2004)

I answered my question as a generic answer; I know youre trying to prove a point.


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## lesofprimus (Oct 2, 2004)

I was trying to open a good topic for debate and discussion... Which Ace fought through the most adversity to be one of the Best alltime???


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## lesofprimus (Oct 24, 2004)

> Who do u think flew against tougher opposistion...
> Kozhedub vs. German Aces, or Bong vs. Japanese Studen... I mean Aces...
> 
> Which aircraft vs aircraft comparison is a greater disadvantage...
> ...



The question is basically who had a harder time reaching his final Victory Total, Kozhedub or Bong???? 

Bong flew a superior P-38 to Kozhedubs wooden La-5... Bong flew against less-competent pilots than Kozhedub... Bong flew against inferior aircraft, while the -109's Kozhedub flew against were better than his La-5...

The point is, it took more talent for Kozhedub to reach 62 kills than it did for Bong to reach 40.....


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 24, 2004)

Yeah I kinda know that...but I voted based on my favourite, i never said Bong was better than Kozhedub, did I. What was the point in reviving this?


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## lesofprimus (Oct 24, 2004)

Lanc was confused on what point i was trying to make, and no one really replied to this....

And besides the topic is Best Fighter pilot, not Favorite...


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 24, 2004)

Oh well 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 24, 2004)

you would say that....................


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 24, 2004)

Yeah, cos I do things my way and no-one elses, unless I really have to that is.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 25, 2004)

i'm sure there are some things you do the same as everyone else, otherwise it could get messey when you go to the toilet...................


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 25, 2004)

Thats the thing, I dont use toilets, I like to be "at one with nature"


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## SASBILL (Oct 30, 2004)

@ PLAN D

Hello Gentlemen,

this might clarify some things!

Rundstedt was recalled to active duty in March 1942 as Commander in Chief West once more. Hitler's "divide and rule" policy, however, meant that Rundstedt, to his frustration, had direct authority only for defending the coast of occupied western Europe against invasion. A further problem was the low quality of troops assigned to him, with better formations being constantly moved to combat crises in other theatres. Matters improved when Hitler issued his Directive No. 51 in November 1943 and gave greater priority to the defence of the West. Even so, Rundstedt was suspicious of Erwin Rommel's appointment as commander in chief of Army Group B, since he did not consider him suited to such a high command. The main point of issue between the two was the location of the panzer reserves, but, in fact, the argument was more between Rommel and Leo Geyr Von Schweppenburg, who commanded them under the umbrella of Panzer
Group West. Although Rundstedt 's compromise solution of allotting some armour to Rommel to deploy close to the coast satisfied neither Rommel nor Geyr, Rundstedt and Rommel did make good their differences before the invasion took place. 

Rundstedt kept an open mind regarding where the invasion would take place, believing that it could come anywhere between Boulogne and Normandy. Like the other German commanders, he thought that it would be mounted in May and was taken by surprise when OVERLORD began, having been about to set out from his headquarters in Paris on an inspection of the south-western part of the Cotentin Peninsula. He was content to give Rommel a free hand over the conduct of operations and devoted much of D-day to persuading Armed Forces High Command (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht3/4OKW) to release Panzer Group West to him. He was not prepared, however, to allow Rommel to use the two panzer divisions positioned north of the Seine, for fear that the main invasion was still to come. It soon became clear to both Rundstedt and Rommel that, having failed to prevent the Allies from establishing a beachhead, it was imperative to withdraw from Normandy to a more defendable line. They argued this to Hitler at Margival, near Soissons, on 17 June, but Hitler refused to listen. Rundstedt continued to pressure OKW over withdrawing his forces, so much so that on 3 July he was replaced by the more pliable Field Marshal Hans Günther von Kluge.


I know all this because i am a warrior tank commander in the british army and the tactics we use today we have taken from the germans during WW2 as they were the leading taticians in that time.

Questions, problems, quiries?


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## lesofprimus (Oct 30, 2004)

And this has to do with the Greatest Fighter Ace How?????

And what is a "Warrior" tank?? Ive never heard of one before... Did the Brits invent a new "super" tank???


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 31, 2004)

i believa we have a armed recon. vehicle called the warrier, the same type of thing as the scorpion and it's family....................


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 8, 2004)

There are many pilots from World War 2 that you can call the greatest. But when you take into account that young pilot had very little training and was flying for a lost cause, Eric Hartman is by far the greatest.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 8, 2004)

I dont think you can qualify the case for greatest pilot on statistics. There could have been several pilots that would have been phenomenal, but were lost on one of their first sorties due to a trivial matter such as plane failure.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 8, 2004)

i think everyone that flew was pretty great, it took allot of guts..............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 8, 2004)

Yup, and in some cases it literally took a lot of guts...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 8, 2004)

That is very true. All the pilots of World War 2 were great pilots in one way or another. Especially because they would dare to get into the cockpit.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 8, 2004)

The other things u have to take into account when cosidering the best is:

Quality of opposition
Quality of ur aircraft
Comparisons between the 2

There were many great German pilots, and many great American and British pilots.....

But Russian pilots had the whole deck stacked against them.... The 2nd leading Soviet Ace flew a damn Aircobra for christsakes.... Against -190's and -109's.... Thats insane, and proves that having 300 kills over some poor, uneducated Russian farm boys flying crap planes who havent even started shaving is not all that impressive... 

Get 300 kills in Europe and Ill be impressed to no end....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 9, 2004)

i'd be happy with 5


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 9, 2004)

Dude id be happy with just surviving...kills are just a bonus


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 10, 2004)

Very true to all of you.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 10, 2004)

yeah but you gotta aim high CC................


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 10, 2004)

No, if you aim low you have more to succeed in, therefore you feel happier because you have far surpassed your target. If you aim high, you have a lot to live up to and even if you acheive that goal you have few targets to set yourself


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## lesofprimus (Nov 12, 2004)

That sounds like the Life Mantra of a Homeless Ditch Digger who wears Boots 2 sizes too small.....


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

Nope my size 12's fit me fine...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 13, 2004)

and i'd love to be a ditch digger, i love plant machines..............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

Yeah...and there isnt anything bad about being homeless, i believe there is a whole race who live like this...I like to call them Brummies


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 13, 2004)

ah brummies, that brings back memories of our old friend sagaris, will he be coming back anytime CC??


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## lesofprimus (Nov 13, 2004)

> and there isnt anything bad about being homeless


U must be outta ur damn mind boy...... U try being a homeless bum and see if u find anything Bad about it..... Im sure the list will top ur favorite 5 planes list....

And as a ditch digger, ud be usin a hand-held shovel to dig them ditches....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 13, 2004)

that wudn't be a problem, i've spent entire days digging before............


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## lesofprimus (Nov 13, 2004)

Not something u wanna do for a living dude.....


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

Why not? You build nice strong biceps after a while, so you can punch the guards and leg it...

And im sorry lanc, Sagaris will not be coming back. I tried to wish myself a happy birthday with him but I forgot the password


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## lesofprimus (Nov 13, 2004)

You dont make any money at ditch digging.... And ur back goes bad after 3 years.....

Jerking off gives u really strong forearms... U gonna do that for a living????


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

Nah, It'll give me rheumatism in the wrist


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 13, 2004)

or repetitive strain injury in your case..............


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## lesofprimus (Nov 13, 2004)

Yea strain on the eyes cause hes usin a magnifiying glass to see what goin on down there....


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

Where as you need a complex mirror arrangement to see past yo' fat american belly


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## lesofprimus (Nov 13, 2004)

Hehe, if I was fat that woulda been alot funnier... On the other hand, it is commonly known worldwide that the British population she smallest average penis size next to Orientals....


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## GermansRGeniuses (Nov 13, 2004)

Where the hell do they get these lists?


"Right then, chaps, pull out your twig and berries - we need to measure them!"


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## lesofprimus (Nov 13, 2004)

Lets see..... 

In America, they get them from polling street hookers in Times Square, New York City.....

In Japan, they polled Tokyo giesha girls....

In Brasil, they polled the thong wearin hotties of Rio.....

In Germany, they polled several thousand big breasted, beer stein carrying blondies....

In Britian, they went and polled all the Local and Territorial Sheep Herders and Wool Shearers.....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 14, 2004)

if that wasn't so funny i may have taken offence at that


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## lesofprimus (Nov 14, 2004)

Hehe....


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 14, 2004)

lesofprimus said:


> Hehe, if I was fat that woulda been alot funnier... On the other hand, it is commonly known worldwide that the British population she smallest average penis size next to Orientals....



I choose not to be part of the British population, they might send on my personal details to third parties...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 17, 2004)

i don't really think you have that choice CC...........


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 17, 2004)

I do, I officially declare myself not a British citizen


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 19, 2004)

what nationallity are you then??


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 19, 2004)

Um, lets see....Italian!


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 19, 2004)

Bonjourno!


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 19, 2004)

I wish i knew more Italian other than that and ciao


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 20, 2004)




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## cheddar cheese (Nov 20, 2004)

Oh, and Italiano! 

Its like the German vocab all over again


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 20, 2004)

exept with even less vocabulary..............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 20, 2004)

yeah


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 20, 2004)

I happen to speak English and German but I guess that happens when you are a citizen of both countries.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Nov 21, 2004)

Isn't there a law that forbids dual nationality in Germany?


I read if you, for example, were American and married a German woman, you would have to renounce one of your citizenships or go on not being considered a German citizen...


True or no?


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 21, 2004)

I think it used to be like that during WW2 but if that law still applies now I think its a wee bit stupid.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 21, 2004)

It doesn't apply anymore. A colleague of my wife has dual Canadian/German citizenship.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 21, 2004)

Just as I thought....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

It used to apply when I turned 18 I had to renounce my german citizenship or be drafted into the German army. At that time in my life I had hair down to the small of my back and a big gotee and all I cared about was going to Metallica concerts and heavy metal so I had no desire to join the army so I renounced it. But when I ran out of college money I figured join the US Army and get some so I did. Then they recently just changed the law again and I was able to get my citizenship back so I am both American and German again. My wife is German also and I was worried that my American citizenship would make it harder for me to do that but it was no problem at all.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

Cool....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

Its funny how people change over time as they grow up and get older.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

HA.... My back feels like the back of a 65 year old..... My knee always hurts.... I have to take Meds everyday.....

And I still act like a 22 year old......

Getting Old SUCKS ASS!!!!!!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

I agree I believe I will always be 18 till I die.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

Unfortunatly, My Wife thinks that being immature is a curse and that I should grow up.....

NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH.... NAH........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

My wife is the same, she does not understand. I keep trying to explain to her that you only live once and you need to take risks and be spontanious and adventurous. Still I cant wait to get out of the army so I can spend more time with her.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

Typical Womans Mentality.... They all want us to be Mr. Serious and grownup.....

I just wanna play with toys......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

Exactly I just want sex, drugs and rock and roll. Okay I can live with out the drugs, I dont like them but I still like the saying.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 21, 2004)

My girlfriend has never told me to grow up, shes even more mental than am


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

And ur 14 years old dude... Wait till u get in ur 30's.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

I remember when I was 14 and just getting to hold a girls hand made my heart jump. I remember making out with her in the movie theatre and I thought I was god. Wait to you get married and then she thinks she is boss, and to keep things going for you you have to let her think she is. No actually in defense of my wife, she is great I could not have found a better woman to spend my life with., she supports me so much. I think that any women that will deal with a military man and all of his deployments and going to foriegn countries to fight and die is the greates woman on the planet.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

I agree about the military spouse bit... All too true.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

So why did you decide to get out of the service?


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

I had enough of all the time away from home... My son was 8 years old and needed his Dad around.... And I was sick and tired of bein shot at.... Haiti was the straw that broke MY camels back....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

Yeah I know exactly how you feel. I have only served sind 2000 but this deployment to Iraq has done it in for me. I was in Kosovo for 10 months then came home for 3 weeks and went to the field, then went to PLDC school for a month, then back to the field and then one month later went to Iraq. After seing my wife for only 2 months over the last 2 and half years I decided I am done as soon as I get out of Iraq, well atleast a year after I get back I will be done.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

I took an extended Med Cruise that lasted 7 1/2 months, which included Somolia operations, and when we finally came home, it was for 2 days before I was sent into Haiti for another 4 months.... It was horrible... See my wife and kid for 2 days in a year??? Comeon... How much can a husband and father take????


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

I know how you feel my friend, I know.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

And I feel for u being in that godforsaken place dude.... Ever since I was over in the Gulf, I cant stand having sand on me.... I used to love the beach.. Now I'll go, but I wont lay in the sand like i used to...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

Yeah my wife wants to go and do some vacation on the beach when I get back but I would rather go to the mountains where I can see some trees and water.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

Amen....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

So what was it that made you want to be a SEAL


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

My Dad was a Special Forces Officer..... Kinda was in my blood.... The Navy let me pick my rating (Electronics Tech)......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

Thats cool, was pretty much the same for me, my father flew helicopthers and since then I knew I wanted to fly.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

So as a Crew Chief, u operate one of those mini guns????


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

No the mini guns are only used by the 160th Nightstalkers special ops aviation group. All I get to play with is a M-60D machine gun. Just like the old ground 60 but it is modified for use from an aircraft with a butterfly grip and a circular sight, both similar to the ones used by gunners on bombers in WW2. I wish they would give me a minigun I could tear some **** up with that.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

Hehe... Usin a -60 is still a shiitload of fun tho....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

Yeah it can be, I am just glad that I have not used it as much as I thought I would have to, If I have to use it then I am probably in a world of shit.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

Truth be told, no combat is better than some combat....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

I definatly agree with you there, if I can make it my last few months here without seeing any I will not complain.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

Have u seen any since u been over there?????


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

Yeah some not as much as other units (knock on wood). Pretty much as a utility aircraft we try to stay clear and haul balls when the shit hits the fan. The Apache guys though see it day in and day out.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

Ive seen Apaches take care of some buissness for us in the past.... To this day, everytime I hear those turbines I get a chill....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

We call them the sound of freedom on our own birds


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

Great Slogan..... We called them Death Birds....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

thats what they bring


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## GermansRGeniuses (Nov 21, 2004)

Kinda like Harriers, A.K.A "La Muerte Negra" (The Black Death) in the Falklands, due to their overall darkgrey camoflage.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 21, 2004)

I think the killer there in the Falklands was the Super Etendard (correct me if I am wrong). Wasn't one of those that almost took out a British Carrier?


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## GermansRGeniuses (Nov 21, 2004)

I have no idea, I just know that the Sea Harriers were EXTREMELY successful against the Argentinians.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2004)

Harriers make great dogfighters, using their nozzles to change their flight path in a way that no other fighter can counter.... 

Ive read some after action reports from these guys and they can basically engage and disengage at will....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 22, 2004)

It is definatly a great aircraft, Ive heard they are designing a harrier now that can fly supersonic speeds unlike the harriers now.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 22, 2004)

it was a widely used and greatly feared manover the harrier pilots used in the falklands, if they got a "bogie" on their tail, simply turn the nozzels so you can go instantly from wing-born forward flight to jet born flight, then when the "bogie's" flown past you, simply go back to forward flight and you should be on his tale, FA.IIs shot down 24 aircraft over the falklands....................


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 22, 2004)

I definatly think it is a great aircraft. Sometimes I watch the Marines do gun runs with it over here.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 22, 2004)

Unfortunatly is rather a bastard to fly and keep control of.... Talk about situational awareness.... So many controls...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 22, 2004)

One of our blackhawk pilots here used to be a harrier guy in the marines and he really enjoyed, wonder why he switched? Will deffinatly have to ask him.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 22, 2004)

Maybe less stress????? Flying a Helo is alot less of a burden than dealin with a Harrier.....


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 22, 2004)

Thats saying something as well, cos from what ive heard Helis aint no piece of cake to fly either...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 22, 2004)

I bet.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 22, 2004)

There not as easy as a regular fixed wing aircraft. The hardest part is the hovering thing.


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## Anonymous (Nov 23, 2004)

lesofprimus said:


> Apart from these 62 victories, Ivan Kozhedub also was forced to shoot down two U.S. P-51 Mustangs that mistakenly attacked his La-7 on one occasion. Both these P-51 losses have been verified by USAAF sources.



So he claims. It's just as likely he bounced them thinking they were 109's, killed them before they knew they were under attack, and then they had to come up with a cover story to explain it. I've heard that at least one of those planes is confirmed not to have fired any shots.

=S=

Lunatic


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 23, 2004)

Does shooting down a friendly count as a minus kill?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2004)

I dont think it counts at all except maybe for shame.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 23, 2004)

Are there any accounts of bomber formations accidentally taking out a friendly whilst firing at enemy planes? I get the impression this could have happened quite a lot.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2004)

Yes that has happened as far as I know. I have read books that talk about the 8th Airforce and they have talked about it.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 23, 2004)

> The hardest part is the hovering thing.



it's laughably simple to put a harrier into hover, there's a rather large lever next to the throttle, simply give yourself a bit more throttle (at the temperatures encountered in the falklands they sometimes needed full throtle just to hover), and to hover simply push one lever and it'll move all the nozzels together.............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2004)

I was saying it was hard to hover a helicopter. Flying a Blackhawk is really easy getting it to stay in one place is rather hard, the tail wants to dip and go left.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 23, 2004)

sorry my mistake...............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2004)

Some aircraft like the Apache have hover hold so the pilot does not even have to hove thing bird.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 23, 2004)

yes i've found that feature very usefull when using the apache on a helicopter gunship simulator game i have...............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2004)

If I may ask what is your aviation experience you have a vast knowledge of aircraft and I was just wondering if any of it comes from actual experience.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 23, 2004)

i'm 14, i've never even been in a real plane..................


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2004)

Oh okay. Ive been around planes my whole life. Fly in them for the military and also for fun. Well it is great that someone your age has the knowlegde that u do.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 23, 2004)

shame none of me school mate agree.....................


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2004)

When I was your age instead of going to the pool on weekends I went to work with my dad so that I could sit in the helicopters and pretend I was flying. Dont let peers get you down, they just dont know what its like to dream of flying through the sky like an eagle and feeling so free. There is no feeling better except maybe good sex.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 23, 2004)

Even thouhg I also like planes being only 15 I do think its a bit weird...but Im still more of a car fanatic than a plane fanatic and I hide my "knowledge" well (mainly cos I dont have any  ) 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 24, 2004)

thats cool


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 24, 2004)

and funny, because it's true............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 24, 2004)

Well its a great place to learn as long as everyone gets along and no one tries to be an asshole.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 24, 2004)

i'm looking at you night_hawk (very few of you will know who i mean)...........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 24, 2004)

I take he was an ass.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 24, 2004)

absolutly...............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 24, 2004)

I wont ask.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 24, 2004)

proberly for the best.............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 24, 2004)

Excuse me, who is night_hawk? There was a Nighthawk, and he wasnt really an asshole, and he still posts, though he hasnt done in about a week.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 25, 2004)

Dont ask me ask Lanc.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 25, 2004)

I was asking him


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 25, 2004)

Whoops it isnt Nighthawk either...its NightHawk


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 26, 2004)

My Flight Company's name is the Knighthawks, spelled a little bit differently with a different meaning but cool anyway.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 26, 2004)

sorry i just realised it was sudden_strike...............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 26, 2004)

what?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 26, 2004)

the asshole poster, it wasn't nighthawk, it was sudden_strike..............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

Ah  God knows how one person can cause such a stir in just 8 posts...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 26, 2004)

Its fun aint it?


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

It was


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 27, 2004)

and it was 9 posts, 9 of the most offensive and abbusive posts in the history of the site................


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

It was actually 8...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 27, 2004)

so it was, was the other one deleted??


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

Nope, its a common misconception that it was 9, it always was just 8...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 27, 2004)

it was so 9..............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

No it wasnt...lets see some evidence backing up your statement 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 27, 2004)

i can't, you deleted one of his posts...........


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

I didnt, what makes you say that? He/She/It only ever made 8 posts, not 9, not 7, not 10, but 8.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 27, 2004)

unless of corse he comes back and makes one post in which case i'll be right...........


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

I doubt that 

When I get time I shall PM him/her/it 8)


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## Udet (Nov 27, 2004)

There were thousands of excellent pilots during WWII.

Public domain: the Germans made many of the most impressive pilots in the history of military aviation.

All the air forces involved: RAF, USAAF, Luftwaffe, VVS, etc. spawned excellent pilots.

Colonel Ivan Kozhedub was one of the greatest pilots and top allied scorer of the war.

However, we must understand his style of telling his story of the war.

It´s been a while since I first read the interview with Ivan Kozhedub. I digress: he was indeed an excellent pilot, a top fighter pilot.

Notwithstanding everything, there would be hundreds of German pilots who would argue Kozhedub´s statement the Yak-3, the La-5 and the La-7 were "absolutely superior" to both the Fw-190s and the Bf109s.

Since he was an excellent pilot, he surely knew the La-7 had its limits: at some things was excellent, and was not so efficient at performing others.
But that is the soviet fashion of putting things.

The records of Hartmann, Barkhorn, Rall and Willi Batz can certainly put into serious doubt many of Kozhedub´s comments.

Top Finnish ace, *Ilmari Juutilainen *(94 kills), just like his German fellow aces, would have solid grounds to argue Mr. Kozhedub´s view on the "undisputed" superiority of some soviet planes over the Bf109s and Fw190´s.

During the great summer offensive of 1944 (summer) Ilmari shot down nearly half Kozhedub´s total bag *flying a Bf109 G2*. 

I have read the battle record of Ilmari, an amazing pilot, and the soviet aces would be paralized to discover how in very low altitude dogfights the Finnish guy totally outmaneuvered the La5´s flying his Bf109G-2.

So?

I have said it here in other threads: those soviet fighters (late Yaks and La´s) were indeed excellent planes, equal to any other fighter of any of the combatant nations; however, we can see Kozhedub falling into the typical victor behavior, just like the guys of the USAAF saying the P-51 "wholly outclassed the Bf109".

Kozhedub goes way overboard when affirming the late Lavochkins were "perfect": there was no perfect plane during the war.

Many of his assessments are even untrue: during the Battle of Kursk the VVS did not, at all, changed forever their way for conducting airwarfare during the war.

In fact, the VVS, throughout 1943 (the year of Kursk battle) achieved very little, just to avoid saying nothing.

The Kuban bridgehead (1943), until evacuated by the Germans virtually by the end of that year, saw massive air battles between Germans and Soviets, and the VVS turned out to be uncapable of gaining air superiority in the area.

Yes, there were soviet pilots scoring victories over there, but as a whole the VVS weapon was not a very efficient one.

Kuban in 1943, saw some of the last massive Stuka formations diving- screaming on soviet positions. April 1943 (hardly 2 months before Kursk) a 450 Stuka strong formation launched a massive attack, losing only 7 Stukas, most of them to AA. (A casualty rate for a mission FAR smaller than anything suffered by the B17 boxes in the west at the hands of the Luftwaffe).

I mentioned the Kuban bridgehead just to illustrate how Kozhedub´s view is somewhat distant from reality.

In 1944, the VVS indeed gained air superiority in the east due more to the simple and recorded reason the Luftwaffe started to move many of its fighter units west, to face the allied heavy bomber menace.

The soviets, as members of the victors club, want the whole cake, you name it: "we gained air superiority all by our excellent pilots and superior fighters", "the Lend-Lease was just a tiny help which included lots of crap we did not like" and the like.

Finally, Kozhedub´s statement on the top professionalism, quality and peformance of the VVS in the late months of the war can easily be shattered when one knows the number of soviet aircraft lost ONLY in 1945, that is, from January 1st to May 8th: 11,000 planes (+/-). *(Eleven thousand).*

See the losses of RAF and USAAF aircraft for the same period time and you will have a better understanding of what I am attempting to land here.

Hoever, I must finish my remarks on Kozhedub´s interview with the same words he finished his interview: "you must understand why" (the soviet propaganda fashion of depicting things).

Cheers!


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

> During the great summer offensive of 1944 (summer) Ilmari shot down nearly half Kozhedub´s total bag flying a Bf109 G2.



Doesnt surprise me at all, the 109G was a fine plane. 

Another point, the Russian planes were INFERIOR to the German planes.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 27, 2004)

alright I am lost


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 28, 2004)

a quick visit to www.barbi.com chould get you back on track (btw i've never been on that site, i don't even know if it works)...............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 28, 2004)

It doesnt exist, and if it was supposed to be www.barbie.com, what the hell does it have to do with anything?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 28, 2004)

Still lost.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 28, 2004)

What you lost on?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 28, 2004)

The whole discussion right now. LOL


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 28, 2004)

Well basically Udet is saying that Russian planes were superior to 109G's, and I am disagreeing with him. The lancs comment means nothing, he was just spamming


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 28, 2004)

Yeah Lancs comment is where I got lost. As for Russian planes being superior. I dont think they were superior to any of the major powers in the War. The Me-109 with a decent pilot would fly circles around a Russian fighter and the aircraft of the US and England were exactly the same would put Russian aircraft to shame. The Russians had some good aircraft but they were still outclassed.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 28, 2004)

Yup. I think the skills of the russian pilots (Kozhedub, Pokryshin et al) somewhat blur the vision of just how inferior their planes were.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 28, 2004)

There were some very skilled Russians and they flew with extreme bravery and heart for there homeland and that says somthing in its self.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 29, 2004)

the russians had some of the best pilots of the war..............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 29, 2004)

I definately agree there. If they had better planes I reckon they would have been able to challenge the great Erich Hartmann's kill total.


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## Udet (Nov 29, 2004)

Hello over there Cheddar:

I guess you must read again what I posted here: I did NEVER say the late soviet fighters were superior to the Bf109G´s. )

What I did say was the late soviet fighter models (Yaks and Las) were in equal terms to any other fighter, friend and foe. Very good at some things and not so good at others.

The Bf109G´s, as pure fighters, are not only fine as you say, they made some of the very best flying machines of the war.

My sole intention in this thread was to illustrate the Ivan Kozhedub´s interview posted here, is 100% soaked with the Stalinist soviet propaganda style of depicting the "great patrotic war".

Really, I suggest you read further on the air battles over the Kuban bridgehead throughout 1943. JG/52 was one of the German units involved there.

The Kuban region, is located in the northwestern corner of the Caucasus. After the German defeat in Stalingrad (1942-early 1943) and the retreat from the Caucasus through the Rostov area, the German forces left on purpose an isolated bridgehead in that area.

There, virtually the whole year of 1943 saw raging battles between soviets and Germans. The soviet air force proved totally uncapable of gaining and establishing air superiority over the Luftwaffe. Many selected VVS fighter units were sent there and they failed, losing in the process big numbers of planes and even several of their aces (i.e. Vadim Fadeyev, who got shot down and killed by a Bf109). Yes, the Germans had their losses as well but they kept the upper hand.

The Kuban example was brought up to argue Kozhedub´s view after Kursk, the VVS emerged as a "superior force", equipped with "perfect planes and top quality fighters", making it such an accurate tool of war which would eventually devour the Luftwaffe.

That is totally misleading. The VVS, through out the war, performed in a mediocre manner. The bulk of its pilots were hastily trained.

The hammer delivered by the Luftwaffe in 1941 was so brutally smashing, the VVS never ever really had the time nor the interest in becoming a proffesional branch of the armed forces.

This was explained to me by retired USSAF pilots of WWII: the defeats the Luftwaffe inflicted to the VVS in 1941 was so total and complete in the westermost areas of the Soviet Union, no country´s air force at all, much less that of Soviet Union of the 1940´s, can recover in the fashion it has been depicted.

1942 continued to see an outcome very similar to that of 1941, the Luftwaffe always keeping the upper hand.

Do not get me wrong, the Luftwaffe victories were never easy: but they were total and complete in 1941. There were several superb fighter pilots in the soviet union during WWII, but they happened to be only a minority.

Bravery is not an issue here; all the airmen of the war, of all the combatant nations were brave, and their fears, joys and sacrifices are well to be respected.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 29, 2004)

Ah I apologise, I though thats what you were implying.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 30, 2004)

The late war Yaks and Il's were getting much better but I still dont think they were on par with the later Me-109s, Spitfires, Fw-190's (any Fw-190 for a matter of fact) or the P-51's. They were catching up but not quite there.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 30, 2004)

I agree. But at least they werent so bad that they just got crushed.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 30, 2004)

I agree there aircraft were not flops or anything I just think they were not quite at the levels of US, Englisch, Jap or German aircraft.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 30, 2004)

that's a nice pic of the 109 you got there................


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 30, 2004)

I saw a very unusual 109 pic earlier, I'll look for it again later and post it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 1, 2004)

Who do you think the best Allied ace was?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 1, 2004)

CC'll say dick bong..................


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 1, 2004)

No, Tom McGuire actually...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 3, 2004)

well i wouldn't say he's the best but my vote goes to Tom McLean...........


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 3, 2004)

Who?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 5, 2004)

Yeah I am not sure who he is. From the allies I liked Pappy Boyingon, I know he did not get as many kills as most aces but I just like him plus they made him look really cool in the show Ba Ba Blacksheep (I think that is what it was called). No really that is not why I him, but for some reason he is my favorite, he probably was not the best though.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

I just found out that Tom McLean was the rear gunner on a lanc who got 5 kills...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 5, 2004)

Thats interesting I did not even know that gunners on bombers could qualify as aces.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

Im not so sure as they can


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 5, 2004)

Well I think they should be allowed. I would think it is much more difficult to shoot down an aircraft from a bomber than from a highly maneuverable fighter plane. I think they should be counted.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

I think just the opposite as it happens.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 6, 2004)

Probably


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## Cheap Labour (Dec 6, 2004)

The fact that Hans-Joachim Marseille isn't included in your list in an embarrassing shame. Did you know the guy would average 15 bullets per kill?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 6, 2004)

what about jonnie johnson?? 515 missions, only once did his plane get "holed"


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 6, 2004)

thats quite impressive.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 6, 2004)

of course it would have been unfortunate if one of those few bullets had gove through his head


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 6, 2004)

It was a fate they all dared to chance


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 6, 2004)

and he got away with it most of the time..........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 6, 2004)

Yeah I think Eric Hartmann even got shot down like 5 times.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 6, 2004)

and interestingly as ALL 38 of jonnie's kills were against single engined fighters he's above hartmann in the rankings.....................


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 6, 2004)

I can believe that, hartmann got all of his against aircraft and pilots that were not even the same level so it was easier for him. but none the less he was great.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 6, 2004)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Yeah I think Eric Hartmann even got shot down like 5 times.



He never got hit by an enemy plane, but he did have to bail out on a couple of occasions.


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## Udet (Dec 6, 2004)

Hello guys:

Hartmann never ever got shot down in a dogfight with soviet fighters; never lost one single wingman, ever.

He crashed a few times during his first months of service, cant recall the exact number of times, and had to belly land once after receiving damage from soviet bombers.


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## Cheap Labour (Dec 6, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> what about jonnie johnson?? 515 missions, only once did his plane get "holed"



Not to dishonour the guy, but combat records like that make me doubt the veracity of his flying. Sounds like the "in and out real quick, gents, no one get killed" kind of strategy. It has a bit of merrit - it keeps his pilots alive.

On the other hand, it doesn't do it's job, which is killing the enemy. Sounds to me like if that was the case, then Johnnie was stuck in battle of Britian mode, poor fellah.


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## Cheap Labour (Dec 6, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah I think Eric Hartmann even got shot down like 5 times.
> ...



Yeah, he was forced down numerous times from his 109 being damaged by the debris of exploding/shedding enemy A/C. 

After the first two or three times that happened I'd definately invest in an armoured prop. 

And possibly some armoured undies too.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 7, 2004)

As for Johnie Johnson, I dont think there is nothing wrong with the in and out aproach. Like you said it keep pilots alive and yes it does get the job done.


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## Karaya_1 (Dec 7, 2004)

Hi there, my Number One is Erich Hartmann (no wonder when looking at my nickname..). I just found a scoring list on the net and there is Marmaduke Pattle (South Africa) with 51 kills....so he ist the number one ace of the western allies..... (http://www.1000pictures.com/aircraft/aces.htm).
There is always the story of easy victories in the east....but these things were always told by people from the western allies, who never fought against the russians......they are just jealous, because after the war, they didn't believed the german kill records, but they have been documented very exactly and so they had to apologize.... in fact, some of their kills were not confirmed by the strict Luftwaffe rules, so many german pilots have 10 - 50 more kills than official... in the first days of the war against Russia, the kills were easy, ok, many experienced pilots had been killed by Stalin and there were a lot of amateur pilots in obsolete planes...but when EH entered the fight in 1943, things had changed.....sometimes, german pilots had to fight enemy fighters at a 1:20 or even 1:40 ratio....one ace against 20 novices, that's not easy....when you talk to german aces flying against russian pilots, no one speaks of easy kills....I've got Kozhedub's memoir from the 1950's ("Ich greife an !" "I'm attacking !"), there he describes the dogfights against the Luftwaffe and he speaks about many experienced pilots flying for the red airforce.....they were trained very well far away from the fighting area (not like in Germany, where many training pilots were shot down by marauding allied fighters) and their planes are often equal to the german fighters....I'm always a little bit amused, when I hear people born 40 years after the war talking about the quality of planes they never even had touched....so I believe in the evaluations of the people, who actually FLEW this birds....    And a word to the rudder markings....when you look at the profiles of Hartmann's 109 from 1944/45, there are no kill markings....you won't show the enemy, that you are a ace......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 7, 2004)

Hallo Karaya_1, wie geht es dir? Ich bin aus Stuttgart aber wohne ich Ansbach jetzt. Keine sorge Hartman is auch meine lieblings pilot. Okay back to english though so everyone can read. Yes I agree with you that Hartmann was the best. I do not wish to take away from alled aces though there were many great English and US pilots too. The thing that I think is so grand and marvelous is the Luftwaffe pilots who still took to the skies in the closing days of war even though the war was basically lost, it was true show of bravery and love of you country. Oh man I am going to be in trouble for posting this, RG_Lunatic will not like it at all and tell me I am false for saying this. Whatever. Wilkommen Karaya_1.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 7, 2004)

Cheap Labour said:


> cheddar cheese said:
> 
> 
> > DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
> ...





Or even a cowcatcher type device


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 7, 2004)

> Not to dishonour the guy, but combat records like that make me doubt the veracity of his flying. Sounds like the "in and out real quick, gents, no one get killed" kind of strategy. It has a bit of merrit - it keeps his pilots alive.
> 
> On the other hand, it doesn't do it's job, which is killing the enemy. Sounds to me like if that was the case, then Johnnie was stuck in battle of Britian mode, poor fellah.



it obviously worked if he got 38 kills over single engined fighters............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 7, 2004)

But it could have ben more...


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## Udet (Dec 7, 2004)

Karaya hello!

Well, I do think your comments require further scrutiny.

Kozhedub himself made a superb pilot, but you have to understand his style of depicting the great patriotic war.

Kozhedub was made a hero. He was so highly praised, once the war ended, I ve been told by trustable people, he used to see himself above humans, like half human/half god.

As a "Hero of the Soviet Union" with all the overdose of overpatriostism such titles contained, he enjoyed privileges 98% of the soviet population could not even dream of.

When he affirms far away from the fronts, "in the depths" of the USSR, there were thousands of soviet new fighters receiving superb training programs, I do not think he is telling the truth, or at least, the whole truth.

Indeed, there were several excellent soviet pilots. General Novikov indeed tried to improve the overall situation of the VVS after the initial hammer delivered by the Luftwaffe: but in the skies the situation did not improve that much.

If you can get to numbers, research further, and you will realize soviert losses of combat planes not only did not drop after 1941, they INCREASED.

The soviet union hastily trained the bulk of its pilots throughout the entire war. And from my talks with veterans they admit it; in a very naive manner if you will, but they admit it.

Soviet losses during 1945 alone, I repeat, during 1945 alone made (+/-) 11,000 combat planes.

Does the number tell you anything Karaya?

The Luftwaffe did not have too much planes, much less enough fuel to engange the VVS from January 1st to May 8th 1945.

I digress: while there were some improvements in the VVS, the overall operational quality remained mediocre. 

The casualty rate due to accidents was frightful for the soviets.

As the conflict saw itself protracted, Stalin political goals only grew stronger, and nothing, absolutely nothing could stop him from reaching out to such goals.

The lives of soviet army and air force men? He couldn´t care less. "Send´em on. That is my order."


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## wmaxt (Dec 7, 2004)

toffi said:


> That's my vote as well. 352 and you don't have to say any more.



The problem we get into comparing kills is that there are different rules used in awarding them, The Germans awarded up to 4 killes for 1 heavy bomber. The Americans awarded aircraft destroyed on the ground as kills in Europe and in the air only in the Pacific. Also how many times did a particular pilot get shot down in persuite of his kills and how should that affect his score?


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## Karaya_1 (Dec 8, 2004)

wmaxt said:


> The Germans awarded up to 4 killes for 1 heavy bomber.



If I understand that correct, you mean that if a German pilot shoots down 1 4-engined bomber, he ist credited with 4 kills ? If you mean that, then it is absolut nonsense !!!! No Airforce had such strict rules and checks before getting a kill confirmed, than the Luftwaffe ! There is only one other possibility : if you damage a bomber and he has to leave the formation, then you are credited with a "Herausschuss HSS ("Shooting-out" (of the formation), it is difficult to translate), but it is not officially counted as a kill (so you might have five kills and six HSS). 
If you mean something different, please explain it to me !


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## Karaya_1 (Dec 8, 2004)

Oh, and by the way : Hallo DerAdlerIstGelandet !


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 8, 2004)

There were many great aces of WW2 but it is still hard to top Erich Hartmann he was a young and telented pilot.

Oh und Karaya wie ist es in Deutschland jetzt grad? Trink eine Gleuhwein fuer mich bitte!


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## Karaya_1 (Dec 8, 2004)

Wir haben hier +3° C in München, kein Regen, kein Schnee.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 8, 2004)

Das ist scheisse. Wuerde gern schnee sehen, aber bald komme ich wieder zuhause dann hoffentlich gibt es schnee.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 8, 2004)

what's that you're saying about my mum


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 8, 2004)

NEIN!


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## Karaya_1 (Dec 8, 2004)

???????????????


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 8, 2004)

What did I just say Nein to?


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## Karaya_1 (Dec 9, 2004)

How should I know ?


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 9, 2004)

Well, you are German


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 9, 2004)

Yeah you lost me up there.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 9, 2004)

Im lost too  We're all lost


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## Medvedya (Dec 9, 2004)

It's snow joking matter......


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 9, 2004)

Not this christmas it isnt


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## Karaya_1 (Dec 10, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> Well, you are German



OK. I'm German, but it's a rumor that we know everything........but I like spreading that rumor...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 10, 2004)

I only wish I knew everything.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 10, 2004)

Your wish is My command.....

PoooffttttttttZZZZZZZat......

There, ur wish has been granted......

Now can I ask u a question????? 

WHERE THE FRUCK IS BIN LADEN HIDING AT???????


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## evangilder (Dec 10, 2004)

ROFL! And where the heck are my keys?!


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## Karaya_1 (Dec 11, 2004)

I don't know, where BL is, but this is the thing he saw in his rear view mirror yesterday....


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 11, 2004)

But he didn't, that's the problem!


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## evangilder (Dec 11, 2004)

Of course he didn't. They don't have rear view mirrors on camels or burros! I think sonner or later he'll be worm dirt. I don't think he will be taken alive. I think I almost prefer him at room temperature rather than doing the perp walk.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 11, 2004)

I dont know but I sure has wish I knew where that bastard was I would love to have him in my sights of my 60D and take that POS out.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 11, 2004)

This is what I'd like to see on Al-Jazeera sometime soon.... Put Usama in the Front seat and Im a happy camper....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 11, 2004)

Hell yeah that would make my day.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 11, 2004)

The kids here are lucky i dont post the rest of the pics i have from this scenario.... His brain is sittin on the seat..... For those u have seen such things, the pics arent so bad.... But virgin eyes cant handle it.. LOL


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## evangilder (Dec 11, 2004)

I guess when you have seen things up close and personal, you get cold to it. I took one look and wondered what the caliber of weapon that hit the perp was. Looks messy like a .50 cal, but the windshield holes don't look big enough for .50. It's been awhile, so my ballistic expertise is rusty. Plus I was just a comm guy in the AF, but I was working on "have-quick" radios in the early 80s, when there were only a few of us that knew them. Hence, we got to fly everywhere they needed have quicks. I can tell you, they weren't in nice, fun places. Because of that, I got to know way more about the world than I cared to. But you know. 

I don't regret it, and am glad that there are guys today like Adler to carry on the torch. Dan and I raise a toast to you.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 11, 2004)

Cheers.....

The car was stopped by a SAW gunner and M-16's....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 11, 2004)

Yeah we have some pics that were taken on one of our air assaults over here in Iraq and they are just out right plain nasty. I wont post them but the damage was done by our M-60D's that we use as door guns on our Blackhawks and when I saw the bodies I will admit it I almost threw up. War is deffinatly nasty. We picked up a soldier a couple of months ago who was hit by a road side bomb, he was alive and going to make a full recovery but his arm looked like it had gone through a meat grinder. These things I will never forget.


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## evangilder (Dec 11, 2004)

Ah, the SAW, now there is an effective killing machine! Lead rain.


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## Darkstalker (Dec 11, 2004)

I agree with lesofprimus
There are many other pilots that should be here like Galland, Marseille or Nowotny


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 11, 2004)

Well ofcourse there are others. Galland, Marseille, and Nowotny were great and there were many others that were just as great or better but you cant list every great ace there are too many.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 11, 2004)

The Poll was not done accuratly.. There should have been more pilots listed...

I think that either Kozhedub or Marseille was the best..... Their competition makes them rank higher than Hartmann in my world...


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 12, 2004)

I say either Pokryshin or McGuire.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 12, 2004)

I would say either Erich Hartmann oder Marsielle but Hartmann is still my fav of all times.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 12, 2004)

i'm a little supprised no-one's mentioned jonnie johnson??


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## lesofprimus (Dec 12, 2004)

Im not.. While a great pilot in his own right, he was nowhere near the Greatest of All Time...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 12, 2004)

worth a mention though, all of his 38 kills were against single engined fighters, making him the highest scoring ace of WWII, and in 515 sorties, he was holed only once...............


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## lesofprimus (Dec 12, 2004)

> making him the highest scoring ace of WWII



Ummmmmm I think u made a mistake there.....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 12, 2004)

if you make a list of the aces with their kills broken down to plane types, he has the highest number of single engined fighter kills with 100% of hill kills coming from single engined planes, that's how it was done on one show, i know he doesn't have the highest number of kills, not by a long shot, but he has the kills where it counts............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 12, 2004)

Yeah but others like Hartmann, Marsielle, Barr and even other allied aces had shot down more single engine aircraft. I dont think you can go by percentage. A kill is a kill.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 12, 2004)

> Yeah but others like Hartmann, Marsielle, Barr and even other allied aces had shot down more single engine aircraft



not according to the stats, anywho, i've got some logs to shift and some new British Mk.4 assult boots to try out, see you soon......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 12, 2004)

Yeap talk to you later.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 12, 2004)

So ur saying that Erich Hartmann scrored less than 38 Fighter Kills???

Marseille had more that 38 fighters destroyed.... So did Kozhedub....

Gerhard Barkhorn shot down over 40 Fighters from 5/16/42 - 7/22/42....

Dont know where u got that info... Unless ur referring to the fact that 100% of his kills were fighters...


> all of his 38 kills were against single engined fighters, making him the highest scoring ace of WWII.



That is not a requirement when it comes to highest scoring ace... U know better than that Lanc... Did u just wake up or something??? Not thinking level???


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 12, 2004)

I did not say that. I am argueing is post too.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 12, 2004)

I know look at the times on our posts....


> not according to the stats


Ummmm... I got the stats from Luftwaffe.cz on Barkhorn...... In 2 months he shot down more fighters that Johnsons whole career.....

Where did u get ur stats?????


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 12, 2004)

there not so much stats but several stories/mentions of him say that as all his 38 kills were against single engined fighters he was the highest scoring ace of the war............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 12, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> > Yeah but others like Hartmann, Marsielle, Barr and even other allied aces had shot down more single engine aircraft
> 
> 
> 
> not according to the stats, anywho, i've got some logs to shift and some new British Mk.4 assult boots to try out, see you soon......



Just cos 100% kills were on single engined aircraft, it doesnt mean he shot the most single engined planes down. If some guy only got one kill, and it was a single engined plane, that also makes him have 100% of his kills on a single engined plane. Does that make him the best pilot in that area? No. The highest ratio of shooting down single engined planes maybe, but not highest number.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 12, 2004)

i said i realise he wasn't the highest scoring..................


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 12, 2004)

No you didnt...

Josef Priller (Pips' fave!) was also pretty good. Higest Spit killer of the war, shot down 68 (I think it was 68)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 12, 2004)

> i know he doesn't have the highest number of kills, not by a long shot



yes i did..............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 12, 2004)

I dont mean that, I mean you said he had the highest number of single engine fighter kills.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 12, 2004)

every source i've read about him says he did have.............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 12, 2004)

But he didnt. Josef Priller shot down about 68 Spitfires, which is more than 38.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 12, 2004)

yeah but none of the sources mentioned that


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 12, 2004)

8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 12, 2004)

don't use that tone of smiley with me.............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 12, 2004)

But Im revelling in the feeling of having proved you wrong


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 12, 2004)

Hartmann for example you know he shot down more than 38 fighters. I am going to do a search for that and find out.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 12, 2004)

Talking to Pips has made me like Pips more 

Heres a screenshot for IL2 FB I done for her earlier...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 12, 2004)

While searching for more stats on Hartmann I have found some other interesting websites, here is the top Luftwaffe aces:

Top German Aces Kills Comments Medal Unit East West Plane 
Erich Hartmann 352 First kill Nov. 1942 KCOSD JG 52 352 - Bf 109 
Gerhard Barkhorn 301 120 sorties w/o a kill KCOS JG 52, 6, JV 44 301 - Bf 109 
Günther Rall 275 two long injury layoffs KCOS JG 52, 11, 300 272 3 Bf 109 
Otto Kittel 267 583 sorties, KIA Feb '45 KCOS JG 54 267 - Fw 190 
Walter Nowotny 258 Austrian, KIA Nov '44 KCOSD JG 54, Kdo. Nov. 255 3 Fw 190 
Wilhelm Batz 237 - KCOS JG 52 232 5 Bf 109 
Erich Rudorffer 222 1000+ sorties, downed 
16 times, 12 Me 262 kills KCOS JG 2, 54, 7 136 86 Fw 190 
Heinz Bär 220 16 in Me 262, downed 18 times KCOS various 96 124 various 
Hermann Graf 211 830+ sorties KCOSD various 201 10 Fw 190 
Heinrich Ehler 209 - KCO JG, 5, 7 209 - Bf 109 
Theodore Weissenburger 208 500+ sorties,
8 kills with Me 262 KCO JG 77, 5, 7 175 33 Bf 109 
Hans Philipp 206 shot down by Robert S. Johnson KCOS JG 76, 54, 1 177 29 Fw 190 
Walter Schuck 206 - KCO JG 5, 7 198 8 Bf 109 
Anton Hafner 204 - KCO JG 51 184 20 - 
Helmut Lipfert 203 - KCO JG 52, 53 199 4 Bf 109 
Walter Krupinksi 197 - KCO JG 52 177 20 Bf 109 
Anton Hackl 192 - KCOS JG 77 130 62 Bf 109 
Joachim Brendel 189 - KCO JG 51 189 - Fw 190 
Max Stotz 189 - KCO JG 54 173 16 Fw 190 
Joachim Kirschner 188 - KCO JG 3 167 21 Bf 109 
Kurt Brändle 180 - KCO JG 53, 3 160 20 Bf 109 
Gunther Josten 178 - KCO JG 51 178 - - 
Johannes "Macky" Steinhoff 176 - KCOS JG 52 148 28 Bf 109 
Günther Schack 174 - KCO JG 51 174 - - 
Heinz Schmidt 173 - KCO JG 52 173 - Bf 109 
Emil "Bully" Lang 173 18 in one day KCO JG 54 148 25 Fw 190 
Adolph Galland 104 - KCOSD JG.26, JG.27, JV.44 - 104 Bf 109, Me 262 
Knights Cross (KC) with Oak Leaves (O), Swords (S), and Diamonds (D)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 12, 2004)

The highest scoring ace of all time was the great German Luftwaffe experte Erich Hartmann with 352 aerial kills. Flying Bf 109s (Me-109s) against the overmatched Soviet MiGs and Yaks for almost three years, he accumulated his unrivalled score. Hartmann claimed, that of all his accomplishments, he was proudest of the fact that he never lost a wingman. He is also reputed to have said. "Get close .. when he fills the entire windscreen ... then you can't possibly miss." 

Hartmann was born in 1922, in Weissach, Wurttemberg. At age 19 (1941), he joined the Luftwaffe and was posted to Jagdgeschwader 52 (JG 52) on the Eastern Front in October, 1942. He scored his first kill in November, and only achieved his second three months later. In the first half of 1943, he worked out some of the tactics which would prove so successful later on. If he was attacked from behind, he would send his wingman down low and out in front. Then he would get behind the enemy and fire a short, quick accurate burst, waiting "until the enemy aircraft filled the windscreen." He would normally content himself with one victory; he was willing to wait for another day. His natural talents began to tell: excellent eyesight, lightning reflexes, an aggressive spirit, and an ability to stay cool while in combat.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 12, 2004)

An outstanding pilot, he was appointed Squadron Commander of Fighter Group 53 in 1944. Flying an ME 109, he achieved 352 kills during the Second World War. In 30 months of fighting he flew 1,425 combat missions and was shot down sixteen times but was never wounded. Apart from six American planes shot down over the Romanian oilfields - including five Mustangs in one day - all his kills were Soviet aircraft. He was decorated with the Germany's absolutely highest military honour - the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds.

I am having a hard timing finding a summary of his kills. Will have to post that later when I find it.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 12, 2004)

Nice 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 12, 2004)

I believe someone in here also posted something about how they read that Luftwaffe pilots were awarded 4 kills for killing a bomber or something like that. As I had said before that was false. They were awarded one kill for one kill, however they were awarded points that would go for recieving awards such as the knights cross. Here was I read at the website that I think they got that from and misinterpreted:

The major difference between the German and Western Allies' method of scoring victories was that the Germans were not allowed to share a victory. Their cardinal rule was: "One pilot-one kill." In contrast Allied pilots were allowed to share victories. If two pilots fired at an enemy and it went down, each Allied pilot received one-half of the kill. Carried to absurdity, it is conceivable that an Allied pilot could become an ace with ten or more half-victories, never scoring any victories of his own! The Luftwaffe system of awarding victories was impartial, inflexible, and far less prone to error than the American or British method. That is not to say that errors were not made, history shows that both sides during the "Battle of Britain" tended to overclaim victories on a scale of 2:1.

The German's recorded victories in one of three categories: Abschuss (Destroyed), Herausschuss (Seperation), and endgueltige Vernichtung (Final Destruction.) These three categories were used for assessing "points" towards awards. Only an enemy aircraft in an Abschuss was counted towards the pilot's overall victory tally. A pilot that brought down and enemy plane with a Endgueltige Vernichtung or Final Destruction of a damaged aircraft was not awarded credit for the "kill", however he did earn "points" for the aircraft's destruction.



Luftwaffe Points Scoring System Aircraft-type:
Abschuss
(Destroyed)
Herausschuss
(Seperation)
Endgueltige Vernichtung
(Final Destruction)


Single-engined fighter
1
0
0

Twin-engined bomber
2
1
1/2

Four-engined bomber
3
2
1



The system recognized the fact that achieving a Herausschuss, that is, damaging a bomber enough to force it from its combat box, or "pulk" (as the Germans called it), was a more difficult task than the final destruction of a damaged straggler. The emphasis of the German fighter arm, the Jagdwaffe, was that of intercepting the Allied bombers. Dogfighting with Allied fighters was to be avoided if possible in favor of attacking the bomber stream when one was present. Decorations were awarded after the following point totals had been reached:



German Awards System Iron Cross Second Class
1

Iron Cross First Class
3

Honor Cup
10

German Cross
20

Knight's Cross
40



The point system existed for the purpose of award qualification only. "Victory claims" and "points" were two distinct statistics. The requirements for the verification of victory claims remained unchanged; only the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM) could confirm a claim, and this proceedure could take more than a year. The practice of claiming "Herausschuss" (seperations) died out in 1944 and many "seperation" claims were eventually awarded as "victories"; occassionally claims by other pilots were allowed for the "final destruction" of the same aircraft. This system led to a claims duplication by a factor of as much as two.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 12, 2004)

This is how they determined if a kill was valid, and again it is like everything Germans do, it has to be a long drawn out process. (I admit it is a downfall of our people):

As noted on the Luftwaffe Scoring and Awards System page, "victory claims" and "points" were two seperate issues. Whenever an Abschuss (Destruction) of an enemy aircraft was claimed a strict proceedure was followed before the claim was allowed. 

Following the policy of "one pilot-one kill", the investigating authorities would determine if the claiming pilot was solely responsible for the destruction of the enemy plane. Every Abschuss had to be observed by a witness: either a ground observer or the encounter, the pilot's wingman, or a Staffelmate. Witnesses were necessary unless the victor's aircraft had been fitted with a gun-camera and the destruction of the plane or the vanquished pilot's bailout had been recorded on film, if the wreckage of the downed pilot or other crew crew member had been captured by German forces. In effect: No witness or tangible evidence - no victory.

Every Abschuss had to be confirmed by the Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe or Commander in Chief of the Air Force. Jagdwaffe pilots were at all times required to note their geographical position as well as the type and number of the aircraft in enemy formations engaged. Naturally, the victor was required to log the exact time of a kill, while he maneuvered for a tactical advantage over the remaining enemy aircraft! In addition, he had to observe other actions in the air in order to be able to witness victories by his Staffelmates. Upon landing, the claimant prepared his Abschuss report for review by the immediate supervisory officer, who either endorsed or rejected the claim. If endorsed, the pilot's report to the Geschwaderstab, or Wing Staff, which, in turn, filed its report and sent both to the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM), or Air Ministry. After checking all the papers that were submitted, the official confirmation was prepared and sent to the unit. This very long bureaucratic proceedure sometimes took as long as a year! During 1944, another authority was created: the Abschusskommission, which received all reports on crashed aircraft remains found by search units. This commission checked conflicting claims between antiaircraft batteries and fighter pilots, and awarded credit for the victory to one claimant or the other. This system ensured that no more credits would be awarded than wrecks found.

The German system of confirming aerial victories was very effective in keeping human errors and weknesses within limits. Despite this, the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe, or Luftwaffe High Command, considered the large victory totals during the early days of the Russian campaign as incredulous. On many occasions, they accused the Jagdgeschwader Kommodores of exaggerating the victory scores. In effect Goering was calling the frontline pilots liars. This was one of the grievances that brought about the Mutiny of the Fighters, or the Kommodores' Revolt Conference, in Berlin during January, 1945.

When a German fighter pilot scored a victory, he would call "Horrido" on the radio. This distinctive announcement of victory alerted his fellow pilots to watch for a crash or a flamer, as well as notify ground stations, which helped to confirm many victories.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 12, 2004)

Well I think I will give up on finding the number of single engine fighters shot down by Erich Hartmann tonight. Maybe I can find it tomorrow.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 12, 2004)

Nope just found it go to http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/hartm/hartm1.htm
and you can read it there.
It says that "Erich Hartmann survived the war with 352 confirmed victories, a higher total than any other fighter pilot in history. These victories were attained on 1,404 combat sorties, resulting in 825 aerial combats. Of his 352 victories, 260 were achieved against fighters - and seven against U.S. Fifteenth Air Force Mustangs."


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 12, 2004)

Alright now I can go to bed now that I found it!


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 12, 2004)




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## lesofprimus (Dec 12, 2004)

Great post DerAdler...


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## Karaya_1 (Dec 13, 2004)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> He was decorated with the Germany's absolutely highest military honour - the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds.



Hi,
here I must correct you : the highest German Decoration was the KC with GOLDEN Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds. It was awarded only once : to the highest decorated soldier of WW II : Oberst Hans-Ulrich Rudel, the Stuka-Ace ! 2530 sorties (all time world record), 519 tanks destroyed, 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 70 landing ships, 800+ motorized vessels, 150+ Flak- and Pak-Batteries, innumerable bridges, bunkers etc., 9 Air Victories (yes, with a Ju 87, maybe that makes him the greatest "fighter pilot"). He was shot down 30 times, wounded 5 times and he flew his last sorties six weeks after he had his right lower leg amputated....he also rescued 6 other Stuka crews by landing near their downed planes and taking them back home in his Stuka....on one occasion, he couldn't take off with his plane again, so he had to roll home on a road many kilometers.....so he also holds the record for rolling the longest distance with a plane....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 13, 2004)

Yes Rudel was great.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 13, 2004)

Rudel was a superb pilot.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 13, 2004)

yeap


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 13, 2004)

Does anyone know what the planes he shot down in the air are?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 13, 2004)

nope not sure but I could do another search for it like I did for Hartmann


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 13, 2004)

Would you? That'd be great


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 13, 2004)

Okay during my search which is not over I have found that he had 9 kills. 7 of them were fighters (still trying to find out which kind) and 2 of them were ground attack aircraft and they were Il-2 Sturmoviks.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 13, 2004)

Ah...fitting 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 13, 2004)

Okay got it according to website Achtung Panzer it they were 7 Lavochkin La-3's.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 13, 2004)

Ah cool 8) Thanks


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 13, 2004)

I like looking up things like that, I try to search and read books on subjects of aviation whenever I have time.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 13, 2004)

Cool 8)


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## Udet (Dec 13, 2004)

Why do I get the feeling the allies indeed envy the German aces of WWII?

Have you detected the allied effort (mainly of the USA and former USSR) to minimize the deeds of such great air warriors?


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## remoraptor (Dec 13, 2004)

The bottom line for me is Erich Hartmann took out seven USAAF Mustangs. 

Some folks say that the quality of Soviet aircraft and pilots was a main factor for the high scores achieved by the Luftwaffe aces in the East. This might have been true in the early part of the war in Russia but by the time Hartmann started making his reputation the Russians already had first-rate fighters and were receiving lend-lease material from the British and the USA. 

If the quality of the opposition was a factor for the Germans' high scores then it would also be true for the Allies'. This is especially true for the RAF and USAAF pilots in the closing stages of the European war were many German pilots were hastily trained to fill the vacuum of accumulated casualties; and in the later part of the Pacific War were the Japanese finally decided to make use of their half-trained pilots as kamikaze so that at least they could do some damage before they were lost.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 13, 2004)

> the Russians already had first-rate fighters and were receiving lend-lease material from the British and the USA.


Are u actually calling a P-39 Aircobra a first-rate fighter???

Erich Hartmann shot down many, MANY inferior aircraft... And most of them were 17 and 18 year olds with 2 hours of cockpit time....

While his # of kills are amazing, as well as the rest of his squadron, his quality of opposition just does not stack up for me.... If he flew in the West, he woulda been swimmin in the Channel, or runnin through the Hedgerows.... British and American opposition was ALOT stiffer than the weak-ass Russians....


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 13, 2004)

lesofprimus said:


> British and American opposition was ALOT stiffer than the weak-ass Russians....



Canadian! Don't forget Canadian!  

Yeah, yeah I know. "British, Canadian, Australian: what's the difference?"
God, didn't my grandfather hate that! I thought he was gonna snap, just tellin' me about it! 
'Course, nine times out of ten they were lumped in with the Brits anyway and about the only difference in the uniform was the word 'CANADA' across the shoulder, but I weren't about to get into it with him!


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## remoraptor (Dec 14, 2004)

I don't think the russians were "weak assed". They had guys who were as good or even better than German and Allied pilots alike. Hell they had women pilots for aces too. And what about that guy who strangled his German opponent to death after shooting him down and hunting him on foot? 

Also, I would rate Saburo Sakai within the top ten. Its not easy for a pilot to fly home wounded blind and to shoot down a B-29 with only one eye among other things.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 14, 2004)

> They had guys who were as good or even better than German and Allied pilots alike.


Men like Kozhedub (62 Kills) and Pokryshkin (59) and Gulayev (57) and Rechkalov (56) and Yevstigneyev (53).....

The talent and skill these fellows posessed was for but a select few..... The Germans in the Air and on the Ground were devastating to the Soviet Airforce... Bodies were hastily trained and thrust into combat.... Training was to the point and abrupt...

Many young boys died in Pe-2's and Yak-3's and P-39's.... A whole city of 30,000.... Gone....


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## Karaya_1 (Dec 14, 2004)

If it was so easy for Hartmann to reach over 300 kills from 1943 to 1945 over "weak and unexperienced" Russian pilots and planes (an allied rumor !), why is there no allied pilot, who reached 100 (or at least 50) kills over weak and unexperienced German pilots and planes from 1944 to 1945 ????? And don't tell the old story of going home after 25 missions, they stayed much longer in Europe !!!


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 14, 2004)

Yep. Russian training was shit, for the most part. That's no testament to the heart of a lot of the young pilots, but they were poorly prepared for combat. Pure and simple.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 14, 2004)

No I really dont think they did try and do that. Maybe at first during the few years after the war. But all aviators have a bond that gives them mutual respect for each other. And the times have changed. For the most part soldiers from either sides do not have any hatred for each other. Again I said for the most part. Soldiers no matter what you do, infantry, pilot, artillery, anything understand that you do what you do for country because it was a soldier does. Even if the soldier does not believe in the polotics of things. Anyhow I do not see much of this.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 14, 2004)

Yes but at the same time most German pilots later in the war did not recieve much better training than the Russians. Hartmann for example was a terrible pilot at first, his fellow aviators did not want him as a wingman. It took him over 40 sorties to start showing the brilliance that made him a good pilot. Here is a brief history of Hartmann and how he began his rise to the top:

Erich Hartmann arrived as a Leutnant to 7./JG 52 in the Caucasus on 10 October 1942.Ofw. Alfred Grislawski, the veteran who was assigned to teach the novice Leutnant the realities of the air war, found Hartmann to be a talented by highly individualistic pilot. Hartmann was intended to achieve a large number of victories, and he displayed a most unhealthy contempt toward his Soviet adversaries. Grislawski, who knew better after serving on the Eastern Front for more than one year, told Hartmann straight forward that unless he changed attitude, he would be a corpse in a matter of weeks.

Erich Hartmann's first acquaintance with the Soviet airmen also told him not to underestimate them; his Bf 109 was shot up, and he was lucky to survive a belly-landing. It took the veterans of 7./JG 52--most notably Alfred Grislawski and Edmund Rossmann much hard work to teach the young Hartmann the name of the game. It was during this time that Grislawski invented the nick-name for Hartmann - "Bubi", "Little Boy." 

Hartmann achieved his first aerial victory against an Il-2 of Soviet 7 GShAP on 5 November 1942, but he got himself shot down on that occasion. When he returned to base, he was punished with three days of ground service work for violating the rules as a wingman. During the following weeks, Hartmann was involved in a large number of air combats. Over and over again, he thought he had the Soviet planes in his gunsight and opened fire--only to see his tracer bullets pass by in empty sky. It was not until on his 41st combat sortie, on 27 January 1943, that Hartmann managed to down a second Soviet aircraft - reported as a "MiG-1", in reality probably a misidentification for a Yak-1 or Yak-7. Grislawski repeatedly told Hartmann to approach the enemy aircraft much closer before opening fire, but this tactic took much nerves, and that was something "Bubi" Hartmann had to learn the hard way.

In March 1943, when Oblt. Walter "Graf Punski" Krupinski arrived to assume command of 7./JG 52, things got even worse to "Bubi" Hartmann. Krupinski was a totally "wild man" in the sky, and he picked Hartmann as his wingman - because all the NCO veterans refused to serve as his wingman. Krupinski never avoided any air combat, and on repeated occasions, he led Hartmann against Soviet aircraft formations from a terribly disadvantageous position. The story behind Krupinski was that he had served under Hptm. Johannes Steinhoff's harsh command in 1941, and Steinhoff had threatened to shift Krupinski to a reconnaissance unit if he didn't shape up as a fighter pilot. Krupinski was a notoriously bad gunner, and he made up for that by attacking the enemy on every possible occasion. It was sheer luck that he managed to survive the war. Flying together with Krupinski meant air combat on almost every mission, and slowly Hartmann's victory tally began to rise. But both Hartmann and Krupinski got themselves shot down several times. This was during the air battle over Kuban - the northwestern corner of the Caucasus where the Germans had been squeezed by the Red Army during the winter of 1942/1943 - and the Soviet aviation opposed to JG 52 in this sector counted some of the best Soviet aces at that time. Notable are Aleksandr Pokryshkin, Grigoriy Rechkalov, and the Glinka brothers. JG 52's Helmut Lipfert later wrote the following words about the air battle over Kuban:

"Things did not go well. (.) There were few contacts with the enemy but many losses. And it was not just the beginners and young pilots who failed to return, but some of the old hands as well." 

On 25 May 1943, when Hartmann was downed for the fifth time - this time when he was rammed by or collided with a LaGG-3 - he suffered a nervous breakdown, and was sent back to Germany to rest. Back home his father told him that he was convinced that Germany had no chance to win the war. Hartmann returned to the Eastern Front in June 1943 determined to prove that his father was wrong.

It was now that Hartmann's rise to success started. He had learned the lessons that he had been taught by Grislawski and Rossmann, and after 180 combat missions was able to master the Bf 109 magnificently. The Soviet novice pilots, who still suffered from shortened training schemes, stood no chance at all against Erich Hartmann. This was proved on the first day of the German Panzer attack at Kursk, on 5 July 1943. Erich Hartmann participated in four missions, and returned from each with a victory. Two days later, he bagged seven in four different engagements. On the last day of July, Hartmann's victory tally had reached 41.

The next three weeks, Erich Hartmann's name would become famous throughout and beyond JG 52. Between 1 and 20 August 1943, he carried out 54 combat sorties and shot down 49 Soviet aircraft. This remarkable victory row ended on August 20, when he was downed himself twice. On the second occasion, he went down in Soviet-held territory, and was captured, but managed to escape and made it back to his own lines. 

On 2 September 1943, he was appointed Staffelkapitän of the famous 9. Karayastaffel/JG 52. Engaging a formation of La-5s and Airacobras on 20 September 1943, Hartmann achieved his 100th and 101st victories. But by that time, no less than fifty other German fighter pilots had already reached that total, and it was no longer even sufficient to be awarded with the Knight's Cross. 

Erich Hartmann continued to shoot down Soviet aircraft--mainly La-5 and Airacobra fighters--at an amazing pace. He claimed three victories on 25 September, three on the 26th, two next day, a La-5 on 28 September, two fighters on the 29th, and three on the last day of September 1943. By that time his victory total stood at 115, achieved on 333 combat sorties.

The sudden steep rise in "Bubi" Hartmann's success rate created suspicion among several other fighter pilots. One of them was Lt. Fritz Obleser, a twenty-year-old Austrian who had joined JG 52 a couple of months after Hartmann. Obleser also had achieved a large number of victories, and he found it hard to believe that another relative newcomer could rise to such level in such a short space of time. So Obleser asked the Gruppenkommandeur if he was allowed to fly a mission with Hartmann, and he received permission to do so. Hartmann and Obleser took off from Novo-Zaporozhye at 1200 hours on 1 October 1943. As they returned fifty-five minutes later, Obleser admitted that his earlier suspicions toward Hartmann had been unfounded; he had personally witnessed how Hartmann had blown two La-5s out of the sky in a matter of minutes.

On 29 October 1943, Hartmann achieved his 148th confirmed victory against an Airacobra. Now he was finally awarded with the Knight's Cross, and was also given one month's badly needed home leave. After his return to his unit, Hartmann scored his 150th kill on 13 December 1943.

On 6 January 1944, Soviet armored forces with powerful air support attempted to break through the German lines to seize the forward airbase Malaya-Viska, where III./JG 52 was based. The Soviets managed to destroy nine Bf 109s, but failed to complete their task. While Stukas and ground-attack aircraft attacked the Soviet ground troops, the Bf 109 pilots fought against the Soviet air support. Fourteen Soviet planes were shot down in three days, including three Airacobras by Hartmann on 8 January-his victories Nos. 163 - 165.

On 26 February 1944, Erich Hartmann engaged Soviet fighter formations in three separate missions and claimed ten Airacobras shot down-including his 200th total victory at 1440 hrs, his 201st at 1445 hrs, and his 202d at 1450 hrs. Erich Hartmann's importance is displayed by the fact that 40 of the 76 Soviet aircraft that were claimed by III./JG 52 between 8 January and 28 February 1944 were shot down by him alone. For this, he was awarded with the Oak Leaves on 2 March 1944. 

But while Hartmann met Hitler in East Prussia to receive his award, the pilots of JG 52 felt the increasing pressure from a steadily improved Soviet Air Force. III. Gruppe alone registered 24 losses through March 1944, and on 1 April 1944, the famous commander of II./JG 52, 250-victory ace Hauptmann Gerhard Barkhorn, was shot down by a Soviet fighter. Returning to his unit, Hartmann experienced the disheartening defeat in the Crimea, culminating with the humiliating evacuation of Sevastopol in early May 1944. However, despite mounting difficulties, Erich Hartmann was able to achieve a total of 172 victories in 1944 alone - including Nos. 250 on 4 June and Nos. 291 - 301 on 24 August.

The question may be risen whether these enormous claims are to be taken seriously. It is extremely difficult to check every single claim made by Erich Hartmann against Soviet loss statistics. But it is a fact that the German fighters claimed a total of 8,501 Soviet aircraft shot down in 1944, while Soviet loss statistics show that 10,400 Soviet aircraft were lost in combat during the same year. 

Erich Hartmann survived the war with 352 confirmed victories, a higher total than any other fighter pilot in history. These victories were attained on 1,404 combat sorties, resulting in 825 aerial combats. Of his 352 victories, 260 were achieved against fighters - and seven against U.S. Fifteenth Air Force Mustangs.

After the war, Erich Hartmann spent ten years in Soviet captivity. He then served in the Bundesluftwaffe for some time. He passed away on 19 September 1993.


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## remoraptor (Dec 14, 2004)

It's quite sad to find out that these WW2 generation of aces are quietly passing away. They're quite a contrast to the peacetime heroes that we have today: football, basketball, politicians... But I think people won't completely forget about them. 
Do any of you guys know of any websites providing info on what these aces did after the war and retirement?


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## lesofprimus (Dec 14, 2004)

Just about every bio and website has the follow-on info..... Do a search for the pilot and youll find them....


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## Lightning Guy (Dec 14, 2004)

There were several reasons the Allied pilots didn't score as high. They didn't fly as many missions. They didn't see as many targets. And there were alot of Allied planes trying to shoot down a few Germans. Pretty hard to break the century mark given those facts.


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## evangilder (Dec 15, 2004)

Remo, one place that I have looked at some of them is 
http://www.acepilots.com

They have some good stuff there.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 15, 2004)

There are many websites, just do a search for the names or just for WW2 aces in general and you should be able to find them.


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## Udet (Dec 15, 2004)

Lightning Guy, HELLO!!!

With all due respect, it comes into my mind to say your comments are not accurate.

You say allied pilots did not score as high as so many Luftwaffe pilots did because they did not fly that many missions.

This is incorrect.

You will see, and I have plentiful and fluent evidence the allies (especially the USA and former USSR) have lied big time when narrating world war two.

That includes a campaign to minimize and even ridiculize the German war effort.

The Luftwaffe experten have not walked away unscathed from the allied defaming campaign.

"German pilots shot down so many planes because they had no limit in the number of missions to be flown. They flew either until the war would end or until getting killed."

That is one the main assets the allies utilize to minimize the German aces.

While such assertion by itself, all isolated, is correct it can certainly lead to incorrect conclusions. Yes, they had no limit in number of missions to be flown, while the USAAF crews had rotation system: fly a determined number of missions and (obviously) if you survive you go home and let the new meat see action.

What was the fundamental downfall of the Bf109? Its very short range.

What was the fundamental (strategic) advantage of the P-51? Its extremely long range.

The Bf109G-6, one of the most produced version of the G series, had a maximun range of about 550 km -with internal fuel load only-. That meant it could stay in the air for about 1 1/2 hour. In many cases the 109´s were fitted with a 300 lts drop tank which increased their range for nearly 50%, that is for nearly 1000 km.

The P-51 equipped with 2 drop tanks had a range reaching some 2,700 kilometers, with a flying endurance of nearl 8 1/2 hours!

So a pilot of the USAAF flying some 150 missions could have been in the air for about 1,200 hours. While a Bf109 G pilot, say, flying 700 missions could have been in the air for abut 1,050 hours.

With this I am trying to say there were many many USAAF pilots who indeed were in the air on combat mission more time than many many German pilots who flew far more missions.

Number of missions flown tells something, but not everything on a fighter pilot record.

Hours effectively flown in missions is a far more illustrative game.

I am aware the accurate number of hours any given pilot spent in the air is impossible to determine (there are cases when the exact number of missions flown for some pilots is unknown!); some missions could last less time than others, and there could be times when the pilot did not resort to use the full endurance of his plane during some missions.

Still, we can come close to telling how many hours a man spent in the air.

There are thousands of USAAF pilots who spent in the air more time than Pips Priller, Waldemar Radener and Willi Batz, just to mention three of them, and shot down many many times less enemy planes.

So as you might see, most arguments deployed by the USA to minimize the Luftwaffe pilots are easy to shatter.

Cheers!


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## Udet (Dec 15, 2004)

I forgot to add:

The things I did comment in the last post, implied that one sole mission flown by a P-51 pilot could equal in many cases 4 or 5 missions flown by a German pilot when flying one sole mission.


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## evangilder (Dec 15, 2004)

I don't think anyone here is trying to minimize the Luftwaffe pilots. But remember that the missions of the fighters on the allied side versus the German side was slightly different, especially later in the war. For the allies, the were on the offense, and in some cases, never saw an enemy fighter. For the Germans, it was defense, and they were going after the aircraft that were entering their airspace. A luftwaffe fighter group going after a large formation of bombers and their fighter escorts had a much larger target base as well. 

There are definitely differences in the way that it was fought and to qualify or quantify kill totals is not an exact science.


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## Udet (Dec 15, 2004)

I did not mean the guys in this forum are trying to minimize the Luftwaffe.

I was rather referring to USA historians and veterans of the war.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 15, 2004)

Evan brings up some good points... Besides the BoB, Germany was mainly attempting to stop the bombing of their country..... More targets of opportunity.... Except on excorting duties, Allied pilots didnt fly their max ranges or stay aloft for their entire avilable flight hours....

Ive never seen where historians were trying to undermine the Luftwaffes airwar efforts.....


> Hours effectively flown in missions is a far more illustrative game.


I see what ur trying to say, but if your assigned sector doesnt have any enemy flight activity, u could stay aloft for 6 hours and see nothing but white puffy clouds....

The Germans rarely had to look for enemy air action.. The Allies granted them that request.....


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## Udet (Dec 15, 2004)

Sorry but your statements do not make any substantial change to the fact P-51 pilots completing their combat mission period in Europe flew more time than most German pilots who flew far more combat missions.

It would not surprise me at all, there were USAAF fighter pilots who spent in the air even more time than German aces known for their massive number of missions flown, such as Gerhard Barkhorn who achieved some 1,100 missions, all in Bf109s.

I digress: that is one of the main assets of allied historians and veterans to explain why German aces scored as high as they did. And as you can see, such argument when put into broad perspective -and not isolated as them USAers do- lacks both head and feet.

Mind you Primis: the Luftwaffe of course looked forward to see action against the large formations of the USAAF. I would not call it a concession granted by the USAAF. During 1944, before the first airfields were established on the continent, thousands of P-51s flew the whole bombing run England-Central Germany-England, and indeed saw plenty of action against German interceptors, and many of them got killed in action. Many times such missions enabled huge swarms of Mustangs for free hunting missions over Germany.


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## Stallion_51 (Dec 15, 2004)

Great discussion going on. It appears our boys didn't come close to Hartmann but that guy was out of this world...kind of the Sean D. Tucker of dogfighters.

How about Preddy and Landers? Landers was an ace in both the Pacific and European theatres. (Yes, there's a little bias here.)


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## lesofprimus (Dec 15, 2004)

And the Germans were sitting at the aerodromes..... Kinda pointless to send up 25 fighters to engage a swarm of Mustangs... 

In 1944, the Luftwaffe was fighting a losing battle... Most of the higher ups, including Galland knew this....

Hartmann scored as much as he did because the Soviets had inferior aircraft, inferior pilots and inferior training.... And he was a great pilot..... Flying a great machine.... There was a never ending supply of aircraft for hime to shoot down....

My Grandfather did a whole tour with VMF-122 and never had an enemy Jap plane in his sights... Many Allied pilots did the same...... They were just not in the right place for enemy action....

Being stationed on the Eastern Front definatly gave u the opportunity to see some action, let alone the opportunity to die...


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 15, 2004)

And there _is_ a lot of validity to the fact that allied pilots generally flew for a set tour of combat, where as the Luftwaffe boys and the Japanese were usually in it for the duration.
Some folks try to discount this when comparing kill tallies relative to one's skill, or what have you, but think about it. Of course it had an impact!
How many more of the enemy would the Richard Bongs of the USAAF have shot down if they never left the combat zone, and/or if America had been in the war from the start?


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## Udet (Dec 15, 2004)

Hello over there beauties:

Primus:

On what grounds do you base your argument that by 1944 the Luftwaffe was fighting a lost battle?

At the very beginning of 1944, that is, January, the air battle over Europe was still far from being decided. 1943 helped the allies discovering the Luftwaffe was a very fearsome enemy to tangle with.

1944 can certainly be considered the decisive year of the allied victory in the air, but it took so many months of very bloody battles, where both the USAAF and RAF took frightful losses.

So it is not correct to say, in my view, that by 1944 the Luftwaffe was fighting an already lost battle. It would be more appropriate to say, that by late 1944 the battle was lost.

On January 11th, 1944, the USAAF lost about 80-90 heavy bombers. That means on one single day the 8th AF saw some 800-900 men not returning for dinner; while for the Luftwaffe fighter force the number of KIA pilots was about 35-40.
So nearly 900 men (from heavy bombers only) on one day in exchange for some 35-40 pilots killed, seems like more than a feasible exhange ratio for the first days of 1944.

For the RAF things did not fare significantly better at all in early 1944. There was a night of February where the NJG´s destroyed more than 70 RAF heavy bombers as well.

However, here we will have to sing the same song: in the long term Germany could not afford its casualty rates while the RAF and especially the USAAF had not that much problem in bringing on the new crews; still that should not get you confused in saying the casualties of both the RAF and the USAAF were "moderate".


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## lesofprimus (Dec 15, 2004)

I said:


> In 1944, the Luftwaffe was fighting a losing battle


U said:


> that by 1944 the Luftwaffe was fighting an already lost battle


U said:


> that by late 1944 the battle was lost.



I never said fighting a lost battle.... I said they were fighting a losing battle..... I am basing that argument on what the people on the German side of the War had to say about it..... Galland stated this... Nowotney said this... Even Goering admitted it to Hitler in 1944......


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## remoraptor (Dec 16, 2004)

There was this encounter early on in Saburo Sakai's career in China were he and his buddies ganged up on an obsolete Chinese plane and he remarked how skillful their prey was in outmaneuvering them considering that they had him boxed up at low altitude with their highly modern zeros. You could actually detect a tone of shame in their performance in his narration of the encounter. Later on, Sakai would perform the same kind of skill on a bunch of Hellcats in Iwo Jima, outmaneuvering and outwitting them in every turn till they gave up. 
What I'm trying to point out is that if the axis aces had one advantage over their Allied counterparts it was time. Time to mature, to train, gain actual combat experience, refine procedures, and establish esprit de corps before WW2 actually started. Take the Battle of Britain for example, the Brits stood toe to toe with the Germans, never lacking in courage and skill. But what the Germans had was tactical maturity, knowing how to bait the enemy, employing the finger-four, etc. The Brits actually had to adopt German tactics in the middle of the battle. 
This kind of advantage carried on for a core group (a shrinking core group) of veteran Axis pilots through the War. You can actually compare this situation with the USAAF pilots in the Korean War: What they had acquired in WW2 carried through the next conflict and enabled them to consistently outfight their Communist counterparts. After his release as a POW, working closely with the USAAF, Erich Hartmann himself remarked how the modern USAAF had the same kind of attitude and esprit de corps the Jagdwaffe had during WW2.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 16, 2004)

Good points....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 16, 2004)

I have to agree with most of comments made. I too believe that the reason the Luftwaffe pilots achieved so many more kills was the fact that they were on the defensive most of the time, which gave them so many more targets to shootdown. However also not to take away from Allied pilots there were many of them far to many to actually mention that were great pilots just as good as the Luftwaffe great pilots, but the Luftwaffe had a great number of Pilots that were just superb and very talented. Also though the argument that Luftwaffe pilots achieved so many more victories than allied pilots because they had been fighting for a longer time than the allied pilots is also inacurate, look at Moulders he scored his 100th victory on July 15, 1941, long before the US even entered the war. Erich Hartmann achieved most of his kills in 1944 after only a year of combat flying.

Top Ace of World War II - Major Erich Hartmann; 352 victories

Top Night Fighter Ace of World War II - Major Heinz Schnaufer; 121 victories

Top German Ace of the Spanish Civil War (1937-1939) - Lt. Werner Moelders; 14 victories

First German Ace of World War II - Major Hannes Gentzen

First Ace to exceed Baron Manfred von Richthofen score of 80 - Capt. Werner Moelders

First to score 100 victories - Major Werner Moelders; July 15, 1941

First to score 150 victories - Major Gordon Gollob; August 29, 1942

First to score 200 victories - Capt. Hermann Graf; October 2, 1942

First to score 250 victories - Major Walter Notowny; October 14, 1943

First to score 300 victories - Capt. Erich Hartmann; August 24 1944

First to score 350 victories - Major Erich Hartmann; April 4, 1945

Most kills scored in a single day - Major Emil Lang; 18 victories

Most kills in a single mission (sortie) - Major Erich Rudorffer; Nov. 13, 1943, 13 victories

Most kills socred on the Western Front - Capt. Hans-Joachim Marseilles; 158 victories

Most kills scored on the Russian Front - Major Erich Hartmann; 352 victories

Best kill average per sorti flown (day fighters) - Lt. Guenther Scheel, 70 missions/71 victories

Top fighter ace for number of four engine aircraft shot down (day fighters) - Lt. Herbert Rollwage; 102 victories (44 of the four-motor bombers)

Top four-engine killer (night fighters) - Major Heinz Schnaufer; 121 victories (mostly four-engine bombers)

Top Jet Ace of World War II (Me-262) - Major Heinz Baer; 16 victories.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 16, 2004)

Here is a list of the aces from WW2. I am not sure if it is complete but its a good list to start. Actually I know it is not complete because they did not list all of the aces with as little as 5 kills or more.

a + sign near an ace's name marks 'Killed In Action'

Belgian aces
Name Kills 

Yvan Georges du Monceau de Bergandel 8 
Charles Detal+ 7 
Jean Offenberg+ 7 
Victor Ortmanns 7 
Jacques Philipart+ 7 
Remy Van Lallemant 6 
Daniel Le Roy du Vivier 6 
Andre Plisnier 6 
Lucien Boussa 5 

Bulgarian aces
Name Kills 

Cudomir Toplodolski 8 
Marin Cvetkov+ 8 
Stojan Stojanov 6 

Chinese aces
Name Kills 

Li Kwei-Tan 12 
Liu Tsui-Kan 11 
Lo Chu 11 
Chen Jui-tien 6 
Chow Ting-fong 6 
Huang Shing-Yui 6 
Kwang Hsin-Jui 6 
Liu Chung-Wu 6 
Chu Chin-hsun 5 
Hwang Pei-yang 5 

Croatian aces
Name Kills 

Mato Dukovac 40 
Cvitan Galic+ 38 
Dragutin Ivanic 18 
Ivan Jergovic 16 
Ljudevit Bencetic 16 
Stjepan Boskic 13 
Franjo Dzal 13 
Zlatko Stipcic+ 12 
Josip Hellebrant 12 

Czech aces
Name Kills 

Karel Kuttelwascher 18 
Josef Frantisek+ 17 
Otto Smik+ 10 
Miloslav Mansfeld 9 
Alois Vasatko+ 7 
Frantisek Peøina 7 
Leopold srom 6 
Otmar Kuèera 6 
Stanislav Fejfar+ 6 
Josef Stehlík 5 
Josef Dygrýn-Ligotick+ 5 
Ladislav Bobek 5 
Bohumil Furst 5 
Jiøí Kuèera 5 

Danish aces
Name Kills 

Kaj Birksted 11 

Finnish aces
Name Kills 

Eino Juutilainen 94 
Hans Wind 78 
Eino Luukkanen 56 
Urho Lehtovaara 44 
Oiva Tuominen 44 
Risto Puhakka 42 
Olavi Puro 36 
Nils Katajainen 35 
Lauri Nissinen+ 32 
Kyosti Karhila 32 

French aces
Name Kills 

Pierre Closterman 33 
Marcel Albert 23 
Jean Demozay-Morlaix+ 19 
Pierre Le Gloan+ 18 
Louis Delfino 16 
Edmond Marin la Meslee+ 16 
Jacques Andre 16 
Roland De La Poype 16 
Albert Littolff+ 15 
Michel Dorance 14 

German aces
Note: **** marks an ace awarded the Knights Cross with oak leaves swords and diamonds medal (click to read the essay). Only 27 men of all german military branches and ranks were awarded this very high medal during the entire war.


Name Kills 

Erich Hartmann **** (click to read his biography) 352 
Gerhard Barkhorn 301 
Gunther Rall 275 
Otto Kittel+ 267 
Walter Nowotny+ **** 258 
Wilhlem Batz 237 
Erich Rudorffer 224 
Heinz Bar 221 
Hermann Graf **** 212 
Heinrich Ehrler+ 208 
Theodor Weissenberger 208 
Hans Philipp+ 206 
Walter Schuck 206 
Anton Hafner 204 
Helmut Lipfert 203 
Walter Krupinski 197 
Anton Hackl 192 
Joachim Brendel 189 
Max Stotz+ 189 
Joachim Kirschner+ 188 
Kurt Brandle 180 
Gunther Josten 178 
Johannes Steinhoff 178 
Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert 174 
Gunther Schack 174 
Emil Lang+ 173 
Heinz Schmidt+ 173 
Horst Ademeit+ 166 
Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke+ 162 
Hans Joachim Marseille+ **** (click to read his biography) 158 
Heinrich Sturm+ 158 
Gerhard Thyben 157 
Hans Beisswenger+ 152 
Peter Duttmann 152 
Gordon Gollob **** 150 
Fritz Tegtmeier 146 
Albin Wolf+ 144 
Kurt Tanzer 143 
Friedrich-Karl Muller+ 140 
Karl Gratz 138 
Heinrich Setz+ 138 
Rudolf Trenkel 138 
Walter Wolfrum 137 
Horst-Gunther von Fassong+ 136 
Otto Fonnekold+ 136 
Karl-Heinz Weber+ 136 
Joachim Muencheberg+ 135 
Hans Waldmann+ 134 
Alfred Grislawski 133 
Franz Schall+ 133 
Johannes Wiese 133 
Adolf Borchers 132 
Adolf Dickfeld 132 
Erwin Clausen+ 132 
Wilhelm Lemke+ 131 
Gerhard Hoffmann+ 130 
Franz Eisenach 129 
Walther Dahl 129 
Heinrich Sterr+ 129 
Franz Dorr 128 
Rudolf Rademacher 126 
Josef Zwernemann+ 126 
Dietrich Hrabak 125 
Wolf Ettel+ 124 
Herbert Ihlefeld 123 
Wolfgang Tonne+ 122 
Heinz Marquardt 121 
Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer **** 121 
Robert Weiss+ 121 
Erich Leie+ 121 
Friedrich Obleser 120 
Franz-Josef Beerenbrock 117 
Hans-Joachim Birkner+ 117 
Jakob Norz+ 117 
Walter Oesau+ 117 
Heinz Wernicke+ 117 
August Lambert+ 116 
Wilhelm Crinius 114 
Werner Schroer 114 
Hans Dammers+ 113 
Berthold Korts+ 113 
Helmut Lent+ **** 113 
Kurt Buhligen 112 
Kurt Ubben+ 110 
Franz Woidich 110 
Reinhard Seiler 109 
Emil Bitsch+ 108 
Hans Hahn 108 
Bernhard Vechtel 108 
Viktor Bauer 106 
Werner Lucas+ 106 
Gunther Lutzow+ 105 
Eberhard von Boremski 104 
Heinz Sachsenberg 104 
Adolf Galland **** 103 
Hartmann Grasser 103 
Siegfried Freytag 102 
Friedrich Geisshardt+ 102 
Egon Mayer+ 102 
Max-Hellmuth Ostermann+ 102 
Josef Wurmheller+ 102 
Rudolf Miethig+ 101 
Werner Molders+ **** 101 
Josef Priller 101 
Ulrich Wernitz 101 

Hungarian aces
Name Kills 

Dezsõ Szentgyorgyi 34 
Gyorgy Debrõdy 26 
Lajos Toth 26 
Laszlo Molnar+ 23 
Miklos Kenyeres 18 
Ferenc Malnassy+ 14 
Laszlo Pottyondy 13 
Istvan Fabian 13 
Kalman Nanasi+ 12 
Jozsef Malik 11 

Italian aces
Name Kills 

Adriano Visconti+ 26 
Teresio Martinoli+ 23 
Franco Lucchini+ 21 
Leonardo Ferrulli+ 21 
Mario Visentini+ 20 
Franco Bisleri 19 
Luigi Gorrini 19 
Furio Lauri 18 
Ugo Drago 16 
Germano La Ferla 13 

Japanese aces
Name Kills 

Hiroyoshi Nishizawa+ 87 
Tetsuzo Iwamoto 80 
Shoychi Sugita+ 70 
Saburo Sakai 64 
Hiromishi Shinohara+ 58 
Takeo Okumura+ 54 
Satoshi Anabuki 51 
Isamu Sasaki 38 
Micuyoshi Tarui+ 38 
Toshiyo Ota+ 34 
Kazuo Sugino 32 
Yashiki Kuroe 30 
Shizuko Ishi+ 29 
Kaneyoshi Muto+ 28 
Chiyoshi Saito 28 
Kenji Shimada+ 28 
Sadaaki Akamatsu 27 
Isamu Hosono+ 27 
Yunishi Sasai+ 27 
Rikia Shibata+ 27 
Goychi Sumino+ 27 
Moricugu Kanai 26 
Hidenori Macunaga 26 
Shogo Saito+ 26 
Goro Furugori+ 25 

Norwegian aces
Name Kills 

Svein Heglund 15 
Helmer Grundt-Spang 11 
Werner Christie 10 
Marius Eriksen 9 
Martin Gran 9 
Nils Jorstad 7 
Frederick Fearnley+ 7 
Rolf Arne Berg 6 
Helge Mehre 6 
Arne Austeen 6 

Polish aces
Name Kills 

Stanislaw Skalski 22 
Witold Urbanowicz 18 
Eugeniusz Horbaczewski+ 16 
Boleslaw Gladych 14 
Jan Zumbach 12 
Marian Pisarek+ 11 

Romanian aces
Name Kills 

Prince Constantine Cantacuzene 60 
Alexander Serbanescu+ 53 
Ion Milu 18 
Florian Budu 16 
Ion Di Cezare 5 

Slovak aces
Name Kills 

Jan Režòak 32 
Izidor Kovarik+ 29 
Jan Gerthoffer 27 
stefan Martis 19 
Frantisek Cyprich 18 
Rudolf Božík 17 
stefan Ocvirk 10 
Jozef stauder 10 
Anton Matusek 10 
Vladimír Krisko 9 

Soviet aces
Name Kills 

Ivan Kozhedub 62 
Alexandr Pokryshkin 59 
Nikolay Gulaev 57 
Grigoriy Rechkalov 56 
Kirill Yevstigneev 53 
Dmitriy Glinka 50 
Arseniy Vorozheykin 46 
Nikolay Skomorokhov 46 
Alexandr Koldunov 46 
Nikolay Krasnov 44 
Georgiy Kostylyov 43 
Sergey Morgunov 43 
Vitaliy Popkov 41 

Spanish aces
Name Kills 

Gonzalo Hevia Alvarez de Quiñones 12 
Mariano Cuadra Medina 10 
Jose Ramon Gavilan Ponce de Leon 9 
Fernando Sanchez Arjona y Courtoy 9 
Angel Salaz Larrazabal 7 
Vicente Aldecoa Lecanda 7 
Damaso Arango Lopez 7 
Luis Azqueta Brunet 6 
Manuel Sanchez-Tabernero de Prada 6 
Lorenzo Lucas Fernandez Peña 6 

British and Commonwealth aces
Name Kills 

Marmaduke Pattle+ (South Africa) 51 
James Johnson 38 
Brendan Finucane+ 32 
Adolphus Malan (South Africa) 32 
George Beurling (Canada) 31 
William Vale 31 
Clive Caldwell (Australia) 29 
John Braham 29 
Robert Tuck 29 
James Lacey 28 
Neville Duke 28 
Collin Gray (New Zealand) 28 
Eric Lock+ 26 
Billy Drake 25 
Geoffrey Allard+ 24 
Jacobus LeRoux+ (South Africa) 23 
Douglas Bader 23 
Donald Kingaby 23 
Robert Boy 23 
Michael Crossley 22 
Vincent Woodward (Canada) 22 
William Crawford-Compton (New Zealand) 22 
Alan Deere (New Zealand) 22 
Raymond Hesselyn (New Zealand) 22 
Evan Mackie (New Zealand) 22 

American aces
Name Kills 

Richard Bong 40 
Thomas McGuire+ 38 
David McCampbell 34 
Gregory Boyington 28 
Francis Gabreski 28 
Robert Johnson 28 
Charles MacDonald 27 
Joseph Foss 26 
George Preddy+ 26 
Robert Hanson+ 25 
Lance Wade+ 25 
Cecil Harris 24 
John Meyer 24 
Eugene Valencia 23 
Raymond Wetmore 23 
David Schilling 23 
Gerald Johnson+ 22 
Noel Kearby+ 22 
Jay Robbins 22 
Dominic Gentile 22 
Fred Joseph Christensen 22 
Keneth Walsh 21 
John Voll 21 
Donald Aldrich 20 
Thomas Lynch+ 20


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 16, 2004)

I personally think that Hartmann could have scored the same number of kills on the West Front. He was a superb pilot. He started off slow but was superb pilot who had great talent. His own fellow Luftwaffe pilots did not even believe the number of kills he was getting until they saw it themselves. He was very talented and eager to fight. Hitler offered to have him exchanged the Luftwaffe Experten squadron flying Me-262's, but that would have meant months of not flying on the front and he told Hitler he would rather return to his only squadron and fight. Hitler responded with "Then go fly, but dont let anything happen to you, the German people need you." Even with the Russians having inferior aircraft it is still hard to discredit his abilities, he was just a great pilot, probably the best we will ever know of.
'


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 16, 2004)

An interesting fact about Adriano Visconti is that 18 of his 26 were in the utterly hopeless Macchi MC.200 Saetta (the rest were in a far more capable Bf-109G-10)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 16, 2004)

That just shows the fact that a talented pilot can still do damage even in the most unlikely aircraft.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 16, 2004)

Yup, and then the Russians shot him down, captured him, and as he was on the way to a PoW camp got shot in the back...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 16, 2004)

He might have been better off shot in the back, I hate to say it but the Russian POW camps were not very nice, not that the German ones were either. Both were hell and not a place I would liked to have been.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 16, 2004)

Agreed. I think it was fairly early in the war he got taken out, he could have gone on to more with the Bf-109.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 16, 2004)

Yes it was a better aircraft.


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## Udet (Dec 16, 2004)

Raptor made very good points.

However, no one has commented further at all on what I said regarding the extremely long range of the P-51 vs the very short range of the Bf109, an issue the vast majority of USAAF historians and veterans appear to ignore when attempting to give a "rational" explanation to the very high scores of so many German aces.



DerAdler, all that info you posted here is very interesting!

Over and around Stalingrad in 1942 (September), Herman Graf destroyed the total bag of top allied ace Ivan Kozhedub with 62 soviet planes shot down! In one month only.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 16, 2004)

The German pilots were also experiencing what the British Pilots were experiencing in the BoB. The would launch on a mission to shoot down Allied Bombers land refuel and be on standy. German pilots could make several engagments a day. The Germans limited range of there aircraft did not really effect them in the latter parts of the war because they were on the defensive. The Allied aircraft needed to have the long range to strike deep into Germany. I dont think the range had much of an effect on the kills that the allied aircraft had.


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## Udet (Dec 16, 2004)

DerAdler:

I am fully aware of what you just said.

Of course during 1944 the Luftwaffe fighter force was on the defensive. I know it very well.  

My point is: the historians and veterans of the USAAF use the "unlimited" number of missions of the German pilots, as one of their main arguments to minimize and to explain their amazing scores!

If a Luftwaffe pilot was able to fly several missions on a single day because they were flying over their own territory defending the German cities and industries, how does that take away any substance to the fact the long range P-51´s would fly just ONE very long range mission on the same day, staying in the air MORE time than the German pilot?

The P-51s when escorting the boxes of heavy bombers were not flying right alongside the bombers, like a sheperd watching after his sheep.

Many many times the escorts were allowed a big freedom of action and there were also many mistakes; there were many times in 1944 -the P-51 long range escort era- where the venerable P-51s were not there to defend their bombers. Need examples of this? The Kassel bombing raid in Sept 27, 1944, when a 38 heavy bomber formation got massacred by the Sturmböck Fw190s. Of 380 USAAF men comprising such formation, 340 did not return.

As 1944 passed by, the long range escort P-51s gained more and more autonomy and devoted a good deal of their time (during one sole mission lasting about 8 1/2 hours) to search for enemy targets.

However, I will put into serious doubt most Luftwaffe pilots flew several missions on a single day in 1944 to intercept USAAF formations; the fuel crisis was just about to become a nightmare on that year.

The days when Luftwaffe pilots flew multiple missions on a single day were then in the past.

Please do not me wrong here: I am convinced the P-51 made one of the greatest planes of the war; not the best of the war, but one among several others.

Its verry long range was precisely the "Plus" strategic value the USAAF needed if they wanted to continue their bombing missions deep into Germany.

Still, and I digress, the arguments of the allies to make it appear Hartmann, Barkhorrn, Rall, Batz, Kittel, Priller, Marseille and company shot down as many enemies as it is known was the consequence of their very high number of missions flown is incorrect and misleading.


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## wmaxt (Dec 16, 2004)

One thing that's not usualy mentioned is that the Allies would not only pull their experianced pilots out of combatbut would then train the new pilots with the tactics ect. of the war zone - in the case of the P-51 replacements this was usualy 50+ hours (except in the war zone transitions where this training was considered useless as the pilots were already experianced. P-38 replacements are reported to have much less training in the ETO though the PTO worked harder on these issues. 

The Axis often sent pilots into battle barely able to fly - one of the reasons that the bf-109 is said (tounge in cheek) to have killed more Germans trying to land than Allied aircraft.


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## Udet (Dec 16, 2004)

"The Axis often sent pilots into battle barely able to fly".

That is one more of the many myths created by the Allied propaganda.
First things first: Germany was not Japan.

Germany lacked fuel to sent its fighter units against the USAAF from the final weeks of 1944 until the very end of the war. The exceptions were perhaps the Ardennes offensive and Bodenplatte.

Perhaps the Japanese indeed sent guys who could hardyl fly, with the sole mission in mind of smashing themselves against US navy targets.

The Allies, in this case the USA, wants to make it seem that in the final days, both scenarios -Pacific and Europe- were nearly identical; that is totally unaccurate and has very little to do with what actually happened.

That in the last year and a half of the war the training programs of new German pilots got shortened is true, but to say the Luftwaffe sent guys who "could hardly fly" to achieve virtually nothing and just to get killed in mass is not true.

October 1944 saw the Luftwaffe fighter force shooting down some 400-450 enemy planes (RAF USAAF, fighter and bombers)

On november 26th, 1944, German pilots destroyed in combat about 100-110 USAAF planes (fighters and bombers).

On December 17th, 1944, German fighters destroyed about 85 USAAF planes.

On december 23rd, 1944, the Luftwaffe shot down about 100 USAAF planes, both bombers and fighters. 

By then fuel was already lacking, and getting it was a drama, and a good amount of it, was being stockpiled for Bodenplatte. So shooting down 100 USAAF planes in the last week of 1944 speaks of an air force certainly not comprised by pilots who can hardly fly.

If possible try to get any comparative numbers of the Pacific theather of operations: you will see that by Nov/Dec 1944 losses at the hands of Japanese fighters were very low.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 17, 2004)

That is true. Toward the end of the war more and more Luftwaffe pilots had less and less training. Atleast combat training that is. That is why I find it hard to discredit pilots such as Hartmann and the other aces. Hartmann was just as inexperienced and was not a very good combat pilot at first. He was shot down on several occasions before getting his first combat kill. He was just downright a fighter pilot genius. His tactics sometimes got himself downed by the fragments of the enemy fighter he shot down however he was the finest fighter pilot ever to fly over the skies of Europe and Russia. I personally believe that the great aces of the Luftwaffe owe there large number of kills to the fact that they were just very talented pilots. Also a bit probably belongs to luck. Again not to take anything away from the Allied pilots, there were many great ones. One thing that discredits the theorie of the limited number of missions the allied pilots were allowed to fly is the fact that some Luftwaffe pilots would get just as many killls in one day as an allied pilot doing his 25 missions or whatever the ammount was that they had to fly.


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## Der Mensch (Dec 19, 2004)

I say the best pilot was either Erich Hartmann, or Hans-Ulrich Rudel


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 19, 2004)

I can agree with Erich Hartmann he is my favorite too Hans Ulrich Rudel was not a Fighter Pilot. He flew Stuka dive bombers. Dont take me wrong I think he was the best tank buster of the war, and the most decorated German soldier. Yes he did manage to shoot down 11 aircraft (some say only 9). Some reports I have read say he shot them down in a Fw-190 which if that is true then I would agree and label him a fighter ace but I am not sure on that. Please dont take me wrong, Rudel was a remarkable pilot. If you want to talk about fighter aces though then you have to name Erich Hartmann, Heinz Bar, Marsielle just to name a few.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 19, 2004)

Well actually either way even with 9 or 11 kills no matter what he flew that still makes him an ace.


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## Lightning Guy (Dec 19, 2004)

According to his own autobiography, most (if not all) of Rudel's kills were scored in a Stuka.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 19, 2004)

I think it was 9 out of 11 were scored in the Stuka.....


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 20, 2004)

That would sound like the most logical explanation...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 20, 2004)

That is what I always thought anyhow that he shot them down in a Stuka. I have read some reports too that say it was a Fw-190 but most and as you said in his own autobiography it was a Stuka so that is what I believe myself.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 20, 2004)

he should know..............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 20, 2004)

Unless he has memory loss...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 20, 2004)

True true. I was just stating what other reports have said.


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## Lightning Guy (Dec 20, 2004)

If I remember right, he scored at least one of his kills using the 37mm guns. I imagine a shell designed to knock out a T-34 would absolutely tear through a wooden Yak or LaGG.


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## Erich (Dec 20, 2004)

Udet your information for the dates of Luftwaffe kills is incorrect. 

for 26 November alone JG 301 claimed some 56 a/c and in reality knocked down 26. My cousin flying in 5./JG 301 was killed this day south of Misburg.

Hartmann and Rudel were in no way the greatest pilots. Rudel scored only two kills and that by his rear gunner while flying the Ju 87D and G. the rest were in the Fw 190F variant.

greetings


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## R Pope (Dec 20, 2004)

It might be argued that one of the guys who shot Hartmann down was better? He was downed nine times.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 20, 2004)

Supposedly not by enemy action though. A lot of technical mishaps and such. Or so history goes, anyway.


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## Lightning Guy (Dec 20, 2004)

I was under the impression that he was always brought down by ground fire and never by an enemy pilot.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 20, 2004)

I would vote for, "Jochi," but he isn't up there for some reason...

Well, him or Saburo Sakai - he did amazing things in the Zero!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 21, 2004)

Hartmann was brought down on several occasions by himself. He would get so close to the enemy aircraft that it filled his gun sight and then after he destroyed the plane all he could do was fly through the wreckage. I still think he was the greatest fighter pilot of WW2.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 21, 2004)

I say McGuire


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 21, 2004)

He his a good choice.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 21, 2004)

He was IMO better than Bong.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 21, 2004)

I dont really know eneogh about hem other than that they were both good aces.


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## R Pope (Dec 21, 2004)

I vote for "Buzz" Beurling. "Only in Canada? Pity!"


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 21, 2004)

Dont know too much about him either. I unfortunatly know mostly about the Luftwaffe aces.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 21, 2004)

I only know about the ones I wanna know about.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 21, 2004)

Good reasoning I guess. I would love to learn as much about all of them because they are all so interesting I think.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 21, 2004)

R Pope said:


> I vote for "Buzz" Beurling. "Only in Canada? Pity!"



 Good show! I agree with you!(go figure, eh? :-" )
I always think it's so funny (and typical  ) that he was originally turned down by the RCAF, which is why he joined the RAF in the first place.
It wasn't until the RAF had had enough of his insubordination, and given him the boot, that the RCAF quickly snatched him up!  
By then, he already had something like 30 kills. I believe only his last two were with the RCAF. The man was a bit nuts!


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 21, 2004)

That top one is a very good picture! 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 21, 2004)

Well from what I have read on the guy he certainly was a screwball as they called him. Its a bit long but I hope it makes an interesting post and reading:

George Beurling was born in Verdun, Quebec in 1921. His parents had high hopes for George, wanting him to go to University and study medicine. 

Mostly George wanted only to fly,


"Ever since I can remember, airplanes and to get up in them into the free sky had been the beginning and end of my thoughts and ambitions".
This was borne out in his school marks, which were barely above passing. He had taken his first flight by age 9, and hung around LaSalle Road airport outside of Verdun every chance he got. He often made the chances, skipping school to watch airplanes and do odd jobs for the mechanics. When he was sent to his room he spent hours building model airplanes. He sold these creations and used the money to buy flying lessons. The only books he was interested in were about flying, especially tales about the WWI aces. He studied the tactics and aerial battles of WWI, discussing them and arguing with anyone who had the time. Other kids bullied him because of his obsession with flying, and when he was chased home one day his father bought boxing gloves and taught to fight. He also said, "George I don't want you to look for a fight, but I don't want you to run away." 
His home life made a distinct impression on him and his personality. His father was a devout Presbyterian church goer, but something early in his adult life made him switch allegience to a stern Evangelical sect called the Exclusive Brethren. They had absolute faith in the Bible. For the Beurlings there were daily bible studies, frequent reading of the Scriptures and weekly attendance at church. The Brethren were dead set against pleasures of the flesh, or for that matter, most other pleasures. It took years before they got a radio, and tobacco and alcohol were shunned. To that end, George never did take up drinking, smoking or swearing. 

Still, George managed to have fun in and around Verdun and on his relative's farm. He was athletic and became a good swimmer, although he didn't participate in team sports. 

One day at the Verdun airport, one of the pilots offered to take him up for a spin in an airplane if he got his parent's permission. He rushed home and asked them. His mother jokingly said, "Sure George, you can go to the moon." He got his first flight and was totally hooked on flying. He first took the controls of an airplane when he was 12, and soloed in the winter of 1938. He saved up enough money to afford a weekly lesson, but it was too slow for him. He quit school in grade 9 and left home, taking a train to Gravenhurst, Ontario. There he got a job hauling air freight into the bush for mining companies. It was dull work, but he got many hours of flying time logged and was responsible for navigating as co-pilot, building up a great store of practical experience in "seat-of-the-pants" flying. After getting his pilots license he headed west to Vancouver hoping to get a commercial license. Then he planned to join the Chinese airforce flying against the Japanese invading Manchuria. 

Beurling tried everything that came along his way that had anything to do with flying. In Edmonton he joined a flying competition that included several RCAF pilots. He won the event. He was anything but humble on receiving the prize. He told the crowd that if the pilots from the RCAF was the best Canada could do, then they were in trouble. Several years later when he was rejected by the RCAF, he attributed the rejection to his comments in Edmonton, and carried a chip on his shoulder for the rest of his life. 

Beurling often claimed that the WWI German ace, Ernst Udet, taught him how aerial combat maneouvers. However, it simply wasn't true. In the mid-thirties Udet was in California flying as a stunt pilot in Holleywood, but he had left for Germany and the newly founded Luftwaffe by the time Beurling was flying. 

While trying to get to China George snuck into the U.S.A. on a tramp steamer and was caught. He was thrown into jail for two months and then released. By then WWII was on and George went into the first RCAF recruiting post and presented himself for duty, but his poor academic record got him booted out of the recruiting station. He took this to be a personal slight because he had made remarks against RCAF pilots in Edmonton. However, the RCAF at the time were very small, under equipped in aircraft and at the time were accepting only pilots with good educations. These men founded the core of the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan, teaching others to fly for combat.

As the Russians and Fins were in battle against each other he decided to head to Europe and join the Finnish airforce fighting against the Russians. The Finnish embassy in Montreal insisted on his parents permission as he was still only 18. His parents refused to give it. 

Determined to get into the fighting he signed onto a munitions ship, the Valparaiso going to England, a sign of real despiration. The trip over was very hazardous as the German U-Boats were highly active in the north Atlantic, sinking ships at will. Once in Glasgow he went to the RAF recruiting office. They were impressed with his flying abilities, but told him that they would need a birth certificate before they would sign him. Unfortunately, George hadn't brought his birth certificate along. Off back across the Atlantic he went for the document, surviving a direct torpedo hit on his ship. And then back again to England. This time the English signed him immediately. 

The Channel Front
Beurling was sent to a large training school in the north of England for a short time, as he was already a licensed pilot. The next stage of training a fighter pilot was to an Operational Training School (OTS) flying Supermarine Spitfires. He studied under the ace Ginger Lacy, who was eventually renowned for shooting down 30 Germans, including the Heinkel 111 bomber that had hit Buckingham Palace. 

Beurling got his first taste of warfare while on leave to London. During an air raid he was astounded by seeing a little girl playing with a doll while bombs fell nearby and shrapnel screamed through the air. Rushing to her, he saw her arm had been blown off, and she was in shock. He scooped her up and carried her to an aid station. Another girl was pinned in a basement room while water from a ruptured main filled it. A doctor hurriedly amputated her leg and carried her to safety. These incidents hardened the naive Beurling. Up to then he had thought that the war was a great adventure for those who could fly. 

In the final stages of fighter training he astounded instructors with his air-to-air gunnery, consistently scoring direct hits on the droge targets. Ginger Lacy offered him a commission on the spot, but perhaps distrusting officers, or more likely due a lack of self confidence, he turned it down. He announced that he preferred to live with the Sargeant Pilots. Once posted to 403 Sqdn, RCAF he was again offered a commission, and he again turned it down. 

He apparently felt that he had more in common with the NCOs and enlisted men on the base than with the officers. He was quite popular with the fitters and riggers that looked after his aircraft, as he took an interest in the aircraft and their work. He would take them up in the squadron hack, a Miles Magister, for aerobatic displays. He also occasionally joined them in pubs, although he drank only soft drinks, and their quarters for bull sessions afterwards.

His fitter, George Demare, tells of an incident when he flew with Beurling.


My excitement began with a routine takeoff followed by our buzzing of a rugby game in progress. Down over the goal posts we flew, causing the startled players to hug the ground, then up over the other goal posts and away. Next we swooped down over a herd of cattle, then over a potato field so low we had to climb to clear the hedge at the far end. More excitement was provided by flying between two trees with inches to spare. Following those low-level escapades, it was up into the skies with a spiral climb, then a variety of loops, turns, stalls, and spins. For the grand finale Beurling took us into a power dive - straight down at a horrendous speed. Alas! the ground was so near I abandoned all hope. Then less than 100 feet from the ground Beurling executed a vertical hairpin turn and we were skybound again. After a few more aerial manoeuvres we came in for a smooth landing. When I emerged smiling, Beurling patted my shoulder and said "Good flying!"

These activities gained him his first nickname "Buzz". 
His commanding officer placed him in the Tail-End-Charlie position. At this time the British were still flying in a flight of 4 aircraft, with three flying in a V, and with one aircraft flying behind and slightly above the others. This pilot was to weave back and forth inside the V watching for the enemy behind them. It was nearly impossible to maintain this position, while weaving and looking out for enemy aircraft. The Tail-End-Charlie frequently did not make it back to base as the Germans attacked him first. It was a seriously flawed tactic that the English eventually abandoned, but it cost many pilots their lives. The Germans used a loose finger-four formation, with two planes flying as a pair. They could see behind each other and attack targets as well. One day in March, 1942 on a sweep over northern France in Spitfire Vs, George recalled: "we were in the air, our tails in the sun, vulnerable to attack, when I reported Huns." However, nothing was visible. He was told to maintain radio silence! "Five minutes later we got bounced and I got shot." Disregarding instructions he pulled out of formation with three Focke-Wulf 190s on his tail. His engine hood was shot away, a shell splinter grazed his ribs and he figured himself for dead meat, when he got an idea. He dropped his landing gear and flaps, slowing instantly, and the Germans overshot him. Now being in a poor position they sped away to their base. On returning to base he lit into his commanding officer in front of everyone. While justified, it showed poor discipline on his part. Shortly after he was transferred to 41 Squadron, RAF. 

He had more problems with his new commanding officer, but he downed his first German. At 24,000 ft over Calais, five FW-190s attacked him while in the Tail-End-Charley position. Cannon shells slammed into his wings knocking out his own cannons. Again, cunning saved his hide. He pulled straight up into the sun, the FW-190s followed and shot past him, as they had more speed, having just pulled out of a dive. As they climbed past him, he lined up on the middle plane and fired his four 0.303 Browning machine guns. A German aircraft exploded, tearing off the wings and splitting the fusilage. Back on the ground he was chewed out for breaking formation! Beurling responded


"Six of us broke formation, five Jerries and I".
Yet again, two days later, over Calais he was in the Tail-End-Charlie position when he spotted a flight of 190s below them and heading their way. The rest of the flight ignored his warnings, as usual. This time he didn't wait to be on the receiving end of the German's cannons. He peeled out of formation and dove on the Germans, scoring a perfect deflection shot on the lead plane. It fell away smoking and crashed into the sea. Once again he was reprimanded for disobeying orders by leaving formation. Disgusted with the crass stupidity of his commanding officers, he offered to take the place of a married pilot who didn't relish being posted to Malta, and was promptly granted permission to leave. 

Malta


HMS Eagle Flying Off Spitfires
Getting to Malta was problematic, as the Germans and Italians were trying to cut it off and pound it to pieces. Any ship getting within range of Axis bombers flying from Sicily were in grave danger and German U-boats prowled the waters. The 16 new Spitfire Mk Vs and their pilots destined for Malta were shipped in the aircraft carrier HMS Eagle. When they were within flying range of Malta (600 miles) the pilots were given instructions on the heading and approximate distance to the island and flew off the deck of the Eagle. This was difficult to do as the Spitfire was never designed for this. The technicians onboard Eagle put wedges in the flaps to hold them at 50% (Spitfires had only 2 flap settings, full up and full down), then the pilots had to rev their engines to the max while standing on their brakes. The deck officer waited until the Eagle rose on a wave and signalled them off. Once off the deck the Spitfire would drop close to the ocean before flying. Once altitude was gained, the pilots dropped flaps all the way, the wedges fell out and then retracted their flaps. The Germans did their best to confuse the new pilots by giving false instructions in English, but most pilots were not fooled by this ruse. Beurling had just landed in his brand new Spitfire, when the cockpit hood was whipped back, the groundcrew pulled him out and another pilot climbed into the cockpit. As soon as it was refueled and armed it roared off to confront an inbound flight of Axis fighters and bombers. He had landed in the middle of an air raid. Many Spitfires were destroyed on the ground before they had a chance to get into the fight. 

His commanding officer of 249 Squadron RAF on Malta was S/L Stanley Grant, with FL Laddie Lucas his flight commander. He proved to be a good judge of character. He said of George, 

"Beurling was untidy, with a shock of fair, touseled hair above penetrating blue eyes. He smiled a lot and the smile came straight out of those striking eyes. His sallow complexion was in keeping with his part Scandinavian ancestry. He was high strung, brash and outspoken. He was a rebel, yes; but I suspected that his rebelliousness came from some mistaken feeling of inferiority. I judged that what Beurling needed most was not to be smacked down but to be encouraged. His ego mattered very much to him, and from what he told me of his treatment in England, a deliberate attempt had been made to assassinate it. I made him a promise that I would give him my trust and that if he abused it he would be on the next aircraft out of Malta. When I said all this those startling blue eyes peered incredulously at me as if to say that, after all his past experience of human relations, he didn't believe it. He was soon to find out that a basis for confidence and mutual trust did exist. He never once let me down."
He arrived at the height of the siege of Malta by the German Luftwaffe and Italian Regia Aeronautica. They were pounding the island night and day to blast it into submission. Malta was the perfect location to stage interception raids on Axis ships trying to reinforce General Rommel in North Africa. Their main airbase, Takali Field, was a shambles. There was a small shack for an ops room, the revetments for aircraft were made of broken rock and sandbags, and slit trenches abounded. It was blinding white and hot as hades in the day. Every morning the operational pilots would have to go out and sit in their aircraft on 1 minute notice. As the sun rose higher the all metal fighters heated up like ovens, with a scantily clad pilot sweating in it. 




A German photo of Takali Airfield 

"On the 12th I got my first real feel of Malta action when Raoul Daddo-Langlois - "Daddy Longlegs" - and Berkeley-Hill, Jack Rae and I were sent up to intercept 15 Me 109s. The enemy planes split us and Berkeley-Hill and I found ourselves alone. About four Jerries jumped B-H, and I pulled up sharply under one and blew his tail off. He went down vertically. Nobody saw him hit the deck, but Berkeley-Hill had seen my burst hit so I was credited with a damaged."

"In those moments of combat I proved to myself that I had the stuff to match flying and shooting with the gentlemen from Sicily. That's what I wanted to find out. As we walked away from our Spits, Daddy Longlegs grinned and said: "Good show, Beurling!" I felt swell."

During the following lull in fighting Beurling made copious notes in a black book that he carried with him. In it, he made detailed calculations on the angles, speeds and shots that he had made and missed so he could work out how to hit the target the next time. He developed a set of equations that he committed to memory that allowed him to perfect the art of the deflection shot. Deflection shooting was difficult at that time as the Spitfire V had only a ring and bead for an aiming device. Learning how to lead a plane so your shells hit the same space as the aircraft did at the same time was tricky to learn. Many never did, but he mastered it.

On July 6 he got to put into practice what he had learned when 8 Spits were sent to intercept 3 Italian Cant bombers heading for Malta. They were escorted by no less than 30 Macchi 200 fighters. Beurling led the assault diving straight through the Macchi formations and pulling up to fire on a big, Cant bomber. His first burst hit the pilot blowing off his head, the second took out an engine. Despite the damage, it made it back to base in Sicily flown by the bomber aimer/observer. Beurling turned quickly and fired directly into an Italian fighter, knocking it down in flames. He lined up another Italian fighter but it dove sharply to get away. Beurling followed all the way from 20,000 feet to 5,000. The Italian had no choice but to pull up and George caught him square in his sights. The Macchi blew up. Later the same day he led an attack on 2 Junkers Ju-88s escorted by 20 Bf-109s. A wild dogfight broke out and 2 German fighter pilots headed right for Beurling. He circled tightly and caught a 109 with a long burst from 800 yards and at a nearly impossible angle. He hit the fuel tanks and it went down in flames. In one day he increased his kill to 5 and became an ace. Back at base the other pilots snubbed him by not throwing an acknowledgement party of his ace status. He was only interested in attacking Germans. He admitted that he was a loner, but Lucas explained to him in simple, direct language that if he didn't fly as a team, he would be posted into the desert at some even more God-awful post than Malta. George flew with his wingman as well as he was able, however, over Malta most dogfights ended up being a single Spitfire against many enemy aircraft. 

It was on Malta that he received his second nickname, "Screwball". Lucas recounts,

"His desire to exterminate was first made manifest in a curious way.

One morning, we were on readiness at Takali, sitting in our dispersal hut in the southeast corner of the airfield. The remains of a slice of bully-beef which had been left over from breakfast lay on the floor. Flies by the dozen were settling on it ..."

Beurling pulled up a chair. He sat there, bent over this moving mass of activity, his eyes riveted on it, preparing for the kill. Every few minutes he would slowly lift his foot, taking particular care not to frighten the multitude, pause and - thump! Down would go his flying boot to crush another hundred or so flies to death. Those bright eyes sparkled with delight at the extent of the destruction. Each time he stamped his foot to swell the total destroyed, a satisfied transatlantic voice would be heard to mutter "the goddam screwballs!"

So George Beurling became "Screwball" to 249, to Malta and to the world. It was an endearing appellation. It suited him exactly. What's more he like it. It helped his ego. It made him feel he was now regarded as an established member of the team. He felt the gaze beginning to be focused on him. At last he was a figure in his own right....




George took to hunting the ubiquitous lizards around Takali airfield with his .38 pistol. He would go out alone and stand motionless waiting for a lizard to get within a prescribed range where he estimated they were roughly the size of a German fighter at 250 yards. This was his preferred range for firing. He often hit the lizards with a single bullet. He was completely focussed on being the best fighter pilot that he could be. 

Malta was a hectic station, with frequent, large scale raids by Germans and Italians. But the AA gunners on Malta quickly became the most proficient in the world with the constant practice they had. Many Axis aircraft were knocked down by the islands ground defences, as well as the Spitfires. By July 11 he had shot down two Bf-109s, three Macchi 202s, had a probable kill on a 109 and damaged a Junkers 88 bomber. 

His markmanship had become a legend. He once reported he had fired 5 cannon shells into the cockpit of an enemy plane. Allied soldiers found the plane with 5 cannon holes in the cockpit. A fellow Spitfire pilot said of Beurling, 

"He was so successful for many reasons, but the two most important were his eyesight and his knack for deflection shooting. He used to report sighting of aircraft many seconds before others saw them, and he knew whether he hit them in the front, centre or rear of their airplane and he usually used minimum ammunition."
Lucas stated, 
"He had an instinctive feel for an aircraft. He quickly got to know its characteristics and extremes - and the importance of doing so. He wasn't a wild pilot who went in for all sorts of hair-raising manoeuvres, throwing his aircraft all over the sky. Not at all. George Beurling was one of the most accurate pilots I ever saw. A pair of sensitive hands gave his flying a smoothness unusual in a wartime fighter pilot ... This acute sensitivity told him that a Spitfire was only a fine gun platform if it was flown precisely. He therefore set out to make himself the master of the airplane. He never let it fly him."
He never shot haphazardly at an aircraft that was too far away. He liked to fire from about 250 yards with several short, hard bursts. That was usually enough. 




"Fox in the Henhouse" original painting by Rich Thistle.
On July 14 he ended up on the receiving end of some German lead. Three Bf-109s and 2 Italian Reggiane 2001 fighter/bombers jumped him. He turned towards the Italians figuring they could do less damage to him, as they were not equipped with cannons, but his aircraft was shot up pretty bad. Back at base he counted 23 holes in his aircraft. He got even a while later downing his first Reggiane and damaging a Ju-88. 

Beurling waxed hot and cold on his Italian opponents. In a 1943 interview he referred to the Italians as "ice-cream merchants", saying 

"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick it even if things are going against them, whereas the Jerries will run."
On July 27 Beurling dealt the Italians a hard blow by killing their leading ace, Captain Furio Niclot and shooting down his wingman, Serg. Magg. Faliero Gelli. Together they had knocked down 8 Spitfires over Malta. Gelli never saw him coming, he hit the wingman's radiator and engine sending him down to crash on an island. He was captured and made a prisoner and thus survived the war. Niclot was killed outright seconds later. Beurling was lining up on a third Macchi when two Bf-109s came up after him. He peeled off and attacked the Germans, hitting the leader in the fuel tanks and sending him down in flames. He was on a roll. He landed, refueled and went back up to attack four Bf-109s. He shot down one in flames and received credit for a damaged plane that limped out of the fight smoking badly. For his amazing day's work he received the Distinguished Flying Medal. 


Beurling after Gelli. Original painting by 

Near the end of July he shot down another Bf-109, and his superior officers finally had to promote him to an officer and ordered him to accept. The press were anxious to interview him, and it wouldn't do to have the top fighter pilot in Malta be a Sergeant Pilot. So he became a Pilot Officer, much to his . 

He, and many of the surviving pilots, were exhausted by the physical demands of fighter combat, stress, heat, poor nutrition and a form of dysentery they called "the Dog". Beurling had lost 50 lbs since arriving in Malta, the Germans and Italians were close to shutting down the island by cutting off it's food supplies. He was bed ridden for a week, but managed to drag himself into the air to battle the Messerschmitts that circled Malta. Several flights of Bf-109s jumped him. He managed a short burst that brought down a German, but his comrades shot Beurling's plane to pieces. He crash landed in a field because his parachute was too loose for him to jump out. By the end of August he collected a shared victory over a Ju-88 that had been separated from it's fighter escort. 



Valleta Harbour
He was again bed-ridden for several weeks due to continued weakness from the poor quality food. In the middle of September he took a plane up but got it badly shot up by a German. He took revenge a few days later when he attacked 18 German fighters. One blew up when he hit the oxygen bottles, another fell away smoking and a third went down in flames. Then came October. The Axis powers pulled out all of the stops to crush Malta. It was a vicious battle, half of Beurling's squad was shot down in one week. His only close friend, a fellow Quebecer, was killed. After that he had no more friends, it was easier that way. 

The air war over Malta became a real grudge match. Pilots on both sides were shot in the air while they hung from their parachuts, or while they floated in the water. Several Italians who landed on Malta were tortured and killed before the British troops could capture them. Little sympathy was shown by either side towards their opponents. 

By the 14th of October Beurling had shot down 5 more German planes, three in one day. He should have been awarded the VC for that effort. Three flights of Spitfires scrambled to intercept 95 Axis planes. Beurling spotted them first, but his radio died and he couldn't contact the others. He piled into the Axis formations, damaging a Junkers 88, and downing 2 Bf-109s. Going home he came across a damaged Ju-88 and shot it down. Actually the huge enemy formations worked in his favour, as the large number of German and Italian fighters couldn't attack him all at once. They either got in each other's way or no one attacked him. Like Bishop he adopted the fast sneak attack and a quick withdrawal method. He could usually count on damaging or downing the first aircraft he attacked, and he got out with the resulting confusion. Then he could circle and pick off stragglers or wait for a favourable chance to attack again. 

His last fight over Malta was, as usual, spectacular. He led 8 Spitfires in an attack on 8 Ju-88 bombers and 50 fighters. He cut out a bomber and shot it down, but the rear gunner hit him in a finger and forearm. He attacked and damaged a 109 in front of him, but two behind him shredded his tail and wings with cannon fire. He dove fast for the water, losing the Germans. Coming out of the dive he spotted a 109 below him and shot it down. But that attracted attention from more Germans. 

"I'd been so intent on the guy in my sights and on Willie's tail that I'd forgotten I had a tail of my own."

"Just as I shot Willie's pal down, a Messerschmitt nailed me from behind, right in the belly of the Spit. A chunk of shell smashed into my right heel. Another went between my left arm and body, nicking me in the elbow and ribs. Shrapnel spattered into my left leg. The controls were blasted. The throttle was jammed wide open and there I was in a full-power spin, on my way down from around 18,000 feet. I threw the hood away and tried to get out, but the spin was forcing me back into the seat. "That is it," I said to myself. "This is what it's like when you're going to die."

I didn't panic. If anything, I was resigned to it. What the hell, this was the way I'd always wanted to go. Then I snapped out of it and began to struggle again.

The engine was streaming flame but I managed to wriggle out of the cockpit and onto the port wing from which I could bail into the inside of the spin. I was down to 2,000 feet. At about 1,000 I managed to slip off. Before I dared pull the ripcord I must have been around 500. The chute opened with a crack like a cannon shell and I found myself floating gently down, the damnedest experience in contrasts I'll ever have.

I caught my breath, pulled off a glove and dropped it to get some idea of the distance between me and the sea. A breeze caught it and the glove went up past my face. I laughed like a fool, then tugged off my flying boots and dropped them. Just as I did I hit the water.

He was rescued shortly after by a launch from shore. When they got there he was floating in blood-stained water babbling about the bible that his mother had given him. The rescue squad searched his pockets and found it. He was patched up as well as they could on Malta and spent some time in hospital before being sent back to Britain.

The flight back was in a Liberator bomber converted to a transport. The nineteen passengers rode in the bomb bay and fusilage without seats. George flew along with fellow Canadian ace "Billy the Kid" Williams and fighter pilot A.H. Donaldson. The aircraft ran into a ferocious thunder storm near Gibralter. Low on gas there was no alternate landing strip so, with poor visibility the pilot forced the bomber down. He couldn't control the plane well enough on descent into Gibralter and missed two thirds of the runway. The aircraft touched down too late and the pilot tried to pull back up. With the engines at full throttle but not generating enough power yet they crashed into the water. Beurling said afterwards that he could tell from the way the plane behaved that it was going to stall so he opened the emergency door and jumped just as the plane hit the water. He managed to swim the 160 yds to shore, despite a heavy cast on his foot. Only Donaldson, Beurling and another passenger survived. Beurling was hospitalized with shock and an infection in his wounded heel. 




The newsprint media flocked to his bedside in England and printed everything he said. One reported wrote "here was a youth with hidden courage". 

Rest in Canada
He was sent back to rest in Canada and Prime Minister Mackenzie King milked his presence with a "photo-op" and nearly messed everything up by being late. Beurling was worn out after a 21 hour flight across the Atlantic. 


The next day he was given a hero's welcome parade through Verdun and Montreal. People lined the parade route despite a cold, slashing rain. Nearly 10,000 people packed the Verdun arena to see their hometown hero. The CBC sent an announcer to broadcast the whole spectacle to the rest of Canada. Being big about it, AC deNiverville, the senior officer for the RCAF No. 3 Training Command admitted that they made a mistake in not taking Beurling when he applied.

"This is one of the mistakes that the RCAF has made, and let us hope we will not make many more like that. We owe, the Royal Air Force a debt for being wiser than we were and readily accepting him."
It was then George's turn on the podium. He spoke for just over four minutes. Opening with 

"This is no place for me, I'm a fighter pilot, not a speech maker."
He continued, apologising for not always looking excited to be in Victory Loan Drives, but he was exhausted, bewildered and excited. He had gone in a few weeks from desperate, kill-or-be-killed battle to an overwhelming, adoring public. He was undoubtedly suffering from battle fatigue. 


The persona that George put forward for the public and the press was that of a hard-hearted, professional killer. He made statements like this on dog-fighting:


"I wonder if he is going to blow or fry. There is no time for any other kind of thought. There is always someone on your tail and you have to be pretty sharp. There is no time to loiter around. You have to be hard-hearted too. You must blaze away whenever you are in a position to get his oxygen bottles or gas tanks."
He gave a press interview that has been retained in the National Archives of Canada. In it he described a horrifying scene that, according to his brother David, haunted him in nightmares for years. In it he is attacking an Italian fighter aircraft.

From Brian Nolan's book Hero, he quotes:


"I came right up underneath his tail. I was going faster than he was; about fifty yards behind. I was tending to overshoot. I weaved off to the right, and he looked out to his left. I weaved to the left and he looked out to his right. So, he still didn't know I was there. About this time I closed up to about thirty yards, and I was on his portside coming in at about a fifteen-degree angle. Well, twenty-five to thirty yards in the air looks as if you're right on top of him because there is no background, no perspective there and it looks pretty close. I could see all the details in his face because he turned and looked at me just as I had a bead on him. One of my can shells caught him in the face and blew his head right off. The body slumped and the slipstream caught the neck, the stub of the neck, and the blood streamed down the side of the cockpit. It was a great sight anyway. The red blood down the white fusilage. I must say it gives you a feeling of satisfaction when you actually blow their brains out."

He was undernourished after the starvation diet on Malta, and his wound in his heel festered. He was secretly admitted to the Royal Victoria Hospital for several weeks. He was allowed out only for his twenty-second birthday so he could enjoy his mother's chocolate cake. 

Following a full physical recuperation, although one foot was permanently shorter than the other, he was sent to help sell war bonds all across Canada. He made appearances at flight training schools, army camps and factories. He promoted Victory Bonds and enlistment. But he was a poor public speaker and he resented the boring work. When asked by a reporter about it he snapped "if I were ever asked to do that again I'd tell them to go to hell or else ask for a commission on the bonds I sold". In March, 1943 he was near the end of the bond drive in Vancouver. It was there he met Diana Whittall, the daughter of a respected Vancouver family. They dated, and went out swimming while he was there. They would marry 14 months later. 


By the spring of 1943 he was fit for duty. He griped that the RCAF was pressuring the RAF into transferring him, however, it turned out that he applied for the transfer with a letter to AC deNiverville.

The European Front
After a short stint at sales, he was sent back to England and made a gunnery instructor at a training base. Unfortunately, he had no patience to teach others what he was so good at and desperately wanted back into action. He continually requested the RAF post him to an operational squadron, but they turned him down. The RAF finally transferred him to the RCAF in September, 1943. Monty Berger, an Intelligence Officer in 403 RCAF Squadron, convinced his superiors that Beurling was personable and willing to help. So Beurling was posted to 403 Squadron again flying from Kenley in Kent, headed by the Canadian S/L Hugh Godefroy. The famous English ace Johnny Johnson was WingCo Flying of 127 Airfield at Biggin Hill.

Hugh Godefroy, in his wartime biography "Lucky Thirteen" writes about many of the famous pilots he led, Beurling included. Of him he wrote:

"Beurling was a tallish slim fellow with a dishevelled crop of blond hair, sharp features and deep creases down each cheek. He was given to chewing gum slowly and deliberately with his mouth open. He had large ice-blue eyes that rarely blinked. With George there was no place for preambles. I went straight to the point. I outlined the conditions under which I would accept him into my Squadron. He listened in silence, his face an expressionless mask. Johnny (W/C Johnny Johnson) then pointed out that we needed experienced leaders with his capability and that he wanted him to take charge of the Ground Gunner Programme. There was a long pause while we both waited. Finally he said:

'Yep, I'll do it!'

'Okay,' I said, 'go on down to the Dispersal hut and meet your squadron mates and familiarize yourself with the Spitfire IX. You'll find it a lot different from the V's that you flew before.'

Without a change of expression he turned on his heels and strode out.

'Friendly chap, isn't he?' Johnny chuckled.

Beurling continued to be a mixed up guy. He seemed to specialize in showing off in bizarre ways, typical of insecure people. He was forever stunting in the squadron Tiger Moth, and buzzing the airfield or buildings at low level. 


One time W/C Godefroy wrote: 
"A wood duck had taken up residence in the pond and become tame enough to be hand-fed. Buck (Bob Buckham) never left the dining table without taking him some scraps. "Buzz" Beurling strolled out of the dining-room and stood for a moment in front of us on the top step surveying the scene. To our utter amazement, he pulled his Webley revolver from his holster, took aim at the duck and proceeded to shoot feathers out of its tail. Before he could fire the third shot, Buckham was beside him and with a lightning chop knocked the revolver from his hand. With his eyes burning like two coals of fire, he said very slowly,

"Beurling, if you ever shoot at that duck again, I'll kill you with my bare hands!"

Beurling just looked at him with those cold blue eyes, then slowly his face broke into a grin as he said:

"Okay, Buck, I wasn't going to hurt it."


As Squadron IO Monty Berger frequently debriefed Beurling after flights. He recounts one such incident in "Invasions without Tears".

The Squadron had returned one day from a mission and, during debriefing, reported all had been quiet.

"I shot down an FW-190", Beurling announced, almost in passing. This astounded everyone, but most of all Hugh Godefroy, who became visibly annoyed.

"How could you have shot down a FW, Buzz? You were flying Number Four!"

"I saw a little dot in my mirror at twelve o'clock," Beurling replied calmly. "I knew that if I said anything on the R/T the chances of our whole section turning around quickly enough weren't very good. That spot would have disappeared. So I peeled off, climbed and got behind him. I was to his left and behind, and I could see my shots going into the rear of his cockpit. The FW went down in flames."



Notwithstanding such tales of Beurling's "super vision", his account of shooting down an enemy aircraft without anyone else realizing it seemed farfetched. More importantly, without an eyewitness the only possible evidence that could be used to support his claim would be if the movie camera in his Spitfire, which operated when the machine guns were fired, had recorded the event.

"By golly", said Monty afterwards, "the film clearly showed the aircraft being shot down. He had spotted this dot, peeled off, got behind it and got back into position without anybody knowing what had happened."


Godefroy was already chafing as a result of Beurling's lone-wolf behaviour. It clearly contradicted a basic tenet that every other pilot in the squadron had come to understand, and respect as essential. Johnnie Johnson had made a point of laying it out for Beurling the day he arrived at Kenley. "There is one rule," he said firmly,"and it is not to be broken. We always fight as a team."

The rule existed wherever Beurling went, but he didn't always follow it. Craving action in the air, and denied as much largely because of circumstances or foul weather, he seemed to distance himself from his fellow pilots, while making it difficult for Godefroy to maintain his authority.

With continued heavy flying by the Wing and it's three Canadian Squadrons there were a lot of officers rotated out of the line for a rest. Johnson went to Fighter Command and Godefroy became WingCo Flying of 127 Airfield.


"As Gunnery Officer of my Wing, Buzz Beurling was doing a fine job, and, without consulting him I put him in command of a flight (as a Flight Lieutenant). As soon as the signal came through confirming his promotion, he stomped into my office and said:

'What are you trying to do? I'm not interested in Administration.'

I was flabbergasted.

'Administration? As a Flight Commander, you don't have to do any administration; all I want you to do is lead your men and lead them well. I told you when you first came here that we needed men with experience. Now you've done a good job as Gunnery Officer, and if you do just as good a job leading your Flight, you'll probably be the next man to be put in command of a squadron. Now get on with it; you'll find that all the administration is done for you.'

For a long while he stood staring at me in glum silence. At last he said, 

'Okay, I'll try it!'

With his hands in his pockets, he slowly wandered out.

Monty Berger had heard the conversation and, with his face a mask of disbelief, said:

'My God, he's a hard fellow to understand; you'd think you were giving him seven days Confined to Barracks.'

Unknown to me, by this act I had lost Beurling's cooperation. The Wing Tiger Moth, which we used for running errands from one airdrome to another, was established for maintainence in his Flight. In bad weather he began taking up various members of his ground crew showing them how well he could perform aerobatics. The new inexperienced pilots in our outfit were fascinated by him. They practiced furiously on the ground shooting device trying to match his quality of accuracy. Every day that the weather was bad, I would see him from my office window, in the Tiger Moth doing precision aerobatics over the airdrome, below eight hundred feet. After the third or fourth time, I took him aside in the bar and said:

'Beurling, I don't mind your practising in the Tiger Moth, but you know as well as I do that aerobatics below a thousand feet over the airdome is a Court Martial Offense. If you want to do aerobatics, get away from here where the rest of the pilots and I can't see you. If I let you do it, some of these young pilots will see no reason why they can't do it too, and probably kill themselves. Can't you see that?'

He just looked at me with a wry smile, then, without saying a word, shuffled off.


It turned out that the continental air battles were a piece of cake compared to Malta, with flights of 50 or more Spitfires flying over German territory at once. Bored with massive fighter sweeps, he began to break formation and go off alone, leaving his wingman exposed. He soon got into trouble with his commanding officers for this irresponsible behaviour. But he still shot down aircraft. In September and December he downed two FW-190s, raising his total to 31.


Godefroy illustrates this tendency well.


"It was a great relief when the weather broke and we were able to resume offensive operations. With broken cloud over France, the weather was unsuitable for bomber missions, so I took the Wing on a fighter sweep ... Between towering cumulus clouds, SL Hunter vectored me onto a large formation of 190's, and I dived to the attack. Beurling was leading the Section on my port side, and when I was about a thousand yards from the formation, I saw Buzz out of the corner of my eye roll right over on his back and then go straight down. Instructing the rest of the Squadron to get into them, I pulled up to see what was going on. While watching Danny Brown knock one down, I heard Beurling's unmistakable voice on the R/T:

'I've had it!'

I called him and asked what the trouble was. There was no answer. I reformed the Wing and with nothing more about, took them all back to Kenley. Half an hour after the Wing landed, a lone Spitfire came into the circuit. It was Beurling. He did a vey cautious turn around the field, put his flaps down and came in and landed. The whites of his eyes were nothing but two pools of blood. Beurling had seen a single 190, thousands of feet below. Instead of attacking the ones in front of us, he had decided to get the one underneath. He had dived straight down from 20,000 feet and not realizing how the Spitfire IX would build up speed, he had got going so fast that his elevators had frozen up. Just after he had said, "I've had it", he had turned back the elevator trim and his aircraft had pulled itself out, blacking him out completely. Massive subconjunctival haemorrhages had resulted from the excessive G. His aircraft was a complete write-off, with all the rivets on the underside pulled from their mountings.

S/L Cam MacArthur grounded Beurling from operations. With the continuation of poor weather, Beurling resumed his aerobatics in the Tiger Moth. Once again he put on a show over the airfield. With considerable annoyance, I warned him that if he didn't stop, I'd have no alternative but to press charges.


George Demare was, once again, his rigger and had a different view of the famous pilot. He took to regaling the fitters and riggers with his stories of combat over Malta. They, at least, still looked up to him, even when he did do serious damage to the aircraft.

Later that summer Beurling pushed his insolence too far. As W/C Godefroy recounts:


"I was sitting in my office on the field on another dreary day with the ceiling overcase at eight hundred feet, catchin up on paper work. Hearing the sound of an engine, I looked out through the window and saw the Tiger Moth just about air-borne. With its wingtip just off the grass, it turned towards me, flew straight at my window and zoomed over the rooftop. In a minute or two I saw it again doing aerobatics. I picked up the phone and called Dispersal.

"The Wing Commander here; who's flying the Tiger Moth?"

"Beurling, sir."

"As soon as he gets down, tell him to report to my office."

I was seething. Beurling had purposedly disobeyed me. I had just posted a general order forbidding low aerobatics in the Tiger Moth. An hour later, when I had cooled down, Beurling slumped into the office with a sly grin on his face. He stood in front of me with his arms folded.

"Buzz, why did you purposely disobey my orders?"

"The Tiger Moth's in my Flight; I'm going to fly it when and how I want to. You can't tell me what to do."

"All right, Beurling. You've had fair warning. Go back to your quarters. You're under open arrest."

Throwing his head back to get the hair out of his eyes, with a wide grin on his face, he sauntered out.

Within an hour of sending the signal for Court Martial, I got a phone call from RCAF Headquarters. It was Air Marshal Breadner, the RCAF's Commander-in-Chief.

"Godefroy, what's this I hear about you putting Beurling up for Court Martial."

"That's right, Sir!"

"We can't do that. Mackenzie King did everything but crown him before he was sent back over here."

"As long as I'm Wing Commander Flying of 127 Airfield and he's on this Station, I will proceed with Court Martial. I couldn't care less if you decide to override me, but I will not allow him to fly again in this Wing, and he will be replaced as Flight Commander."

"I don't blame you, Godefroy. Tell him to pack his bags and report to RCAF headquarters."


George Beurling went to W/C Buck McNair's 126 Air Field as he was desperately short of experienced fliers. This fact shows how desperate McNair was, as he had previously rejected Beurling for his lone-wolf tactics in Malta. To Beurling's misfortune, McNair was even less tolerant of his antics than was Godefroy. To him the kernal of successful air combat over Europe was team work, and Beurling had shown that he was not a team player.

Two months passed in 412 Squadron before Beurling shot down another aircraft. It was a FW-190, his 32nd and last.

McNair had been badly wounded when he was shot down in flames into the Channel. With only minimal time to recover and with his sight in one eye damaged, he became difficult to get along with. McNair had forbidden Beurling to fly the Tiger Moth, so he had taken his frustration out racing station transport around the tarmac. Finally in a fit of anger and frustration, Buck told him that if he didn't pack up and get off the Station within the hour he would beat him up.

The entire RCAF HQ finally tired of his insolence and they grounded him. They were trying to develop a system based on teamwork and were discouraging the lone-wolf tactics of WWI. Most pilots were not as good as Beurling and could not survive on their own for long in battles against the Germans. W/C Johnny Johnson had discussed the merits of the long range American P-51 Mustang II fighter with him, noting that it could fly to Berlin and back from England. Beurling simply responded "Can it now." and got a far-away look in his eyes. Johnston figured that in a P-51 Beurling would have roamed all over Europe looking for fights and would "either finally get himself killed, or down more aircraft than any of us". He never got to try a Mustang. He was granted an honourable discharge from the RCAF and sent home. He applied to the USAAF but they rejected him too.

After the War
George Beurling was lost without the excitement of combat and the recognition it gave him. Commercial airlines turned him down for fear he would wreck a plane or drive off customers. He was reduced to begging on Montreal street corners. In 1944, his short marriage came to an end.

W/C Hugh Godefroy had one more encounter with Buzz.


"In December, 1947 I was in the Laurentians above Montreal skiing. At the end of a day we went into Grey Rock's Inn for a hot drink. I saw a familiar face: George Beurling.

He seemed glad to see me and came straight over and inquired about my activities since last we'd met. He told me he was going to the Middle East on the invitation of the Israelis. They had P-51's, and he would be doing dive bombing and strafing against no fighter opposition. He invited me to come. I would get $1,000 for crossing the Atlantic, and after eight weeks' flying, I could come home with a net of $8,000. As I thought about it, he watched me with those ice-blue eyes of his. Finally, with a slight smile, he said"

"There's only one hitch, Hughie. This time you'll be flying behind me."


Reports on what happened are varied. George Beurling ended up at Urbe Airport in Rome on his way to Israel. Their transportation was a Norduuyn Norseman, an aircraft known to be tricky on takeoff if the pilot was not familiar with it. On May 21, 1948, the front page of the Montreal Gazette reported that George Beurling and his friend, an American fighter pilot, Moshe Cohen, were dead. His engine cut on take-off, and in a desperate attempt to get his Norseman back on to the field he spun in. Sabotage was suspected but never proven. 
Monty Berger, now a reporter in Montreal, wrote a moving tribute to the fallen ace. He was given a grand funeral in Rome and buried in Verano Cemetary (the Protestant cemetary) in Rome. Rome's Chief Rabbi and many Jews paid him their respects for losing his life while trying to defend their homeland. He lay in Verano Cemetary for two years before being relocated to Mount Carmel Cemetary as an Israeli hero. 



With 32 confirmed planes shot down, George Beurling was one of the top Allied aces of WWII. He was not a conventional kind of guy, some could say paradoxical. Many fighter pilots were highly unconventional on the ground, and did a lot of foolish things in relieving the tension of battle, but Beurling seemed to do things with a calculation to annoy senior officers. Almost to show them that he was the best fighter pilot around, and that is all that counted. He flew with a bible his mother had given him, yet he had an un-Christian attitude in killing opponents. He craved attention and fame, caring only for his standing as an ace, not for promotions or leadership. He couldn't stand taking responsibility for others. His love for attention was shallow, he couldn't form stable relationships with men or women. Many opposing words can be used to describe him. Rebel, irresponsible, ace, blood-thirsty, lone wolf, unfriendly, opinionated, rude. But he gave his all to a war that did not really concern him. He excelled at flying a heavily armed warplane at great speeds with precision and great effect. Despite his many shortcomings, the Allies got a bargain when they hired George Beurling. Perhaps the RCAF should have given him that P-51 to fly by himself


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 21, 2004)

The thing was, the man thoroughly _enjoyed_ killing!
And it's not uncommon for fighter pilots to display arrogance, but come on!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 21, 2004)

Oh trust me I know the arrogance. All of my pilots are the same way and us crew chiefs have our own arrogance but at the same time it is sort of a given. I think military pilots should be allowed to have some what of an arrogant side for what they do.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 21, 2004)

I suppose so, but Beurling was a little off the deep end!
Still, he was a great pilot.



And he was Canadian!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 21, 2004)

Yeah one can go to far. So you are from Canada. A buddy of mine is from Ontario he was also a crew chief in my flight company but he just left us 2 weeks ago to go to flight school and become a pilot. He was already a bit arrogant lets see if he carries on with Beurling's way.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 21, 2004)

Well, best of luck to him!  I hope he doesn't become a psychopath like Beurling!

Then again, he _is_ from Ontario.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 21, 2004)

I dont know 3 days before he left he was in a Blackhawk accident with a ground vehical because they were screwing off.


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## Cheap Labour (Dec 21, 2004)

Anyone ever read Derek Robinson's book Piece of Cake? This guy sort of reminds me of Flash Gordon and a bit of Moggie Cattermole.


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## Lightning Guy (Dec 21, 2004)

Marseille was the best. McGuire might have been the best P-38 pilot, maybe even the best American pilot. Interestingly though, Charles MacDonald (McGuire's CO) thought Neal Kerby was the best pilot he knew during the war.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 22, 2004)

I do like Marseille, I think he would be my 3rd fav after Erich Hartmann, and Heinz Bar.

"As long as I look into muzzles, nothing can happen to me. Only if he pulls lead am I in danger" 

Hans-Joachim Marseille. LG2, JG52, JG27. Total combat sorties: 382. Total victories: 158. (7 Battle of Britain, 151 North Africa. 101 P-40s, 30 Hurricanes, 16 Spitfires, 4 two-engine bombers) Killed on active service on September 30th 1942.

A group of Bedouin instinctively raised their heads toward the low buzzing sound of high flying airplanes, which had already become familiar sight for them. Their quiet, leisurely conversation stopped. Wrapped in thawbs, their postures became still, as they followed little dark specs on the background of a blue sky. One of those points was trailing a string of white smoke. A few moments later, it turned upside down - slowly directing its nose toward the earth. At almost the same instant a tiny black dot separated itself from the spec, going its own way but in the similar direction. They knew, that up there, it was a man falling down. But expected white umbrella of parachute did not appear. The black dot continued its trip toward the line of the horizon, where it retired. Arabs resumed their conversation, commenting on what they just seen. They decided, however, that it was too far to go and look for the body to rob it of its valuables. Especially since two of planes lowered their flight and started to circle around the place where the body met its destination. The Bedouin knew that soon someone would come to look for the corpse. What they didn't know was, that it was the "Eagle of Africa" that had fallen. The man, who was one of the very best that had ever flown up there. His name was Hans-Joachim Marseille. 

* * * 

Born of French Huguenot ancestry on December 13th 1919, in Berlin-Charlottensburg, (which explains non-German family name) Marseille was destined for military carrier. At the time of his childhood everything in Germany was military oriented. His father was an officer. Some sources indicate that his was a pilot in W.W.I, although this is unlikely. It is known that he was killed at Stalingrad while being an infantry general. It is also unlikely that Hans-Joachim was raised in home set upon strict military discipline or army tradition. His parents divorced early in his early teens with his mother remarrying a policeman. A doting woman, she often failed to discipline her son for mischief or bad behavior. As he became an adult, Germany was gearing up for war. While efforts to train pilots were being stepped up a young Marseille joint one of old Deutsche Lufthansa flying schools - which at that time was openly training military pilots under patronage of RLM (Reichsluftministerium). On November 7th 1939 he joined Luftwaffe.

His early efforts in the war were undistinguished. Although he shot down 7 aircraft during Battle of Britain, he himself fell victim to enemy fighters on four occasions. Johannes Steinhoff had him transferred out of 4/JG52 for insubordination. Johannes "Macky" Steinhoff (176 victories) remembered: "Marseille was remarkably handsome. He was gifted pilot and fighter, but he was unreliable. He had girlfriends everywhere, who took up so much of his time that he was often too tired to be allowed to fly. His often irresponsible understanding of duty was the primary reason I sent him packing. But he had irresistible charm"

Marseille "landed" in I/JG27 where his new Kommandeur, Edu Neumann show some forbearance recognizing in him great potential. It was noticed that he possessed superb acrobatic flying skills, excellent eyesight and an acute sense of tactics. Marseille on the ground often displayed boyish behavior. He was a great joker - always ready for mischief. He wore his hair long and listen to jazz and swing music. He also carried a reputation as a "playboy" which isolated him a little bit from other pilots. In retrospect, he was unorthodox in the fullest sense. 

At the very beginning of his flying in Africa, Marseille got shot down by a Hurricane flown by a Free French pilot. It made for him a very unimpressive start. He settled in quickly, however, getting used to the very different flying conditions, as compared to those in Europe. Marseille practice dummy attacks on his cammaraten, seeking ways to shoot quickly and accurately. He insisted on perfecting a deflection shot from any given angle, using different speeds. Standard Jagdwaffe procedure was to apply full throttle all the time. Here Marseille's unorthodox character showed up again. Often he would throttle down to get to an attacking position. During combat he also lowed his flaps, in order to decrease radius of a turn. Eventually, he improved in the game of air combat, developing an instinctive taste for it. Marseille always had to be on the top. He was a very ambitious warrior who wanted to shoot down a lot of aircraft. Flamboyant flyer, he also had a great need for being accepted and appreciated. 

With tactics soon perfected, his score rose dramatically. On February 22, 1942 he reached 50 (43 in forty weeks); 75 on June 5 (25 in fifteen weeks); and 101 on June 18 (26 in thirteen days), clearly becoming very effective "killing machine" in its highest gear. On June 15 he shot down 4 aircraft in three minutes. Two days later he score 6 in only ten minutes. It seemed, that he was always able to put himself in an advantageous position when engaging enemy aircraft. Thanks to his eyesight and hunter instinct he was able to see his opponents first. The esteem and admiration of his colleagues began to rise quickly too. Many tried to copy his routines but was not able to duplicate them. Friedrich Körner (36 victories) commented: "Yeah, everybody knew nobody could cope with him. Nobody could do the same. Some of the pilots tried it, like Stahlschmidt, myself, and Rödel. He was an artist." (from interview with Koerner conducted by Rob Tate in 1994)

At this time, DAF (Desert Air Force) fighters, and especially fighter-bombers, when caught in disadvantageous situation, used to formed the Lufbery Circle. That seemed to work on Marseille as a waving red cloth in front of a bull. At the expense of several of his own aircraft, he developed a tactic that enabled him to enter and defeat this defensive formation.

"... Marseille's approach to the problem was typically unorthodox: a short dive to gain speed, then up and under from outside the circle, using the blind spot under the adversary's wing; close to 150 feet, a brief burst of fire, then up and away, using the accumulated speed of the dive to soar high above the circle; down again once more on the outside but this time coming from above at a moderate deflection angle of perhaps 30 degrees; ease the stick back, then, as the target disappears beneath the nose, a brief burst of fire, then up and outward once more, or down and outward, ready for another climbing attack..." Mike Spick. Luftwaffe Fighter Aces. page 123

Hardly the brainchild of a genius, the tactic proved so successful because of Marseille's ability to execute it. It required extremely precise timing and distance-judgment. A very accurate aiming was a must. Farther more, only a pilot who mastered his aircraft completely, could do it. Using this tactics Jochen scored very well. It is well known fact that his tidy-minded armourers kept account of rounds expended for each sortie. That was used to calculate the amount of ammunition which Marseille needed for each kill. Combat reports analyzed in Berlin showed that, at the peak of his abilities, Marseille needed 15(!) shells and bullets to make him shout Horrido! This farther contributed to his staggering achievements. 

On September 1st 1942 (ironically, a 3rd anniversary of outbreak of the war) Marseille down 17 allies planes in three sorties. His first encounter that day was with a P-40 which had attack Stukas. It went down in flames rather quickly. Then six Spitfires acting as escort to Kittyhawks dropped down on Bf-109s. Marseille lowered his flaps and throttling back almost staling his aircraft, causing Spitfires to shoot past him. The last got a full course meal from of Jochen's 20-mm canons and machine guns. The British fighter literally disintegrated in mid air. In the short skirmish which then transpired, another Spit was victimized by Marseille, as well as a second P-40 trying to escape on deck. 

Times of victories: 08:28; 08:30; 08:33; 08:39.

On his second flight that morning, Jochen flew top cover for Ju-87s. They ran into big party of DAF fighters and bombers. Marseille with his wingman intercepted eight P-40s on their dive for Stukas, and allies planes formed the circle soon after this. He shot down two of his opponents immediately and the circle broke up. As they scattered, Jochen knocked down three more. He took his sixth after short chase, with a very long deflection shot. Throughout all this, his wingman flew close cover. They both climbed up again only to spot another flight of unsuspecting Kittyhawks. Marseille approached alone and shot down his seventh. After turning home he came upon yet another P-40 trailing white smoke. It became his eighth in this flight and probably was his easiest victim. 

Times of victories: 10:55; 10:56; 10:58; 10:59; 11:01; 11:02; 11:03; 11:05.

Eight aircraft in ten minutes! Back in the base, as soon as he opened the canopy of his 109, he learned that Feldmarschall Kesselring was visiting his unit. Upon reporting to Operations HQ tent, Marseille declared 12 enemy aircraft shot down. Kesselring inquired of him the number he shot himself, and Jochen replied accordingly: "Twelve, Sir". His supreme commander did not say a word. Later, he admitted to being astonished. That was a very busy day for all pilots of the JG-27. After a meal and a short rest, Marseille departed as an escort to Ju-88s which were seeking to bomb British troops concentrations. The battle of Alam el Halfa was at its highest point. Fifteen P-40s attacked Junkers, which in turn were attacked by Marseille's pilots. A series of dogfights erupted which gradually brought fighting aircraft from 5,000 feet to almost ground level. In this aerial fracas the "Eagle of Africa" shot down another five P-40s.

Times of victories: 18:46; 18:47; 18:48; 18:49; 18:53. 

That brought his daily tally to seventeen. That was a great deal of scrap production for one man! Understandably, there was a lot of celebrating with shnaps and egg flips that evening, in a tent set up as a cocktail bar by Marseille himself. The only problem was the fact that the German pilots did not stop enemy bombers, which inflicted heavy loses on Afrika Korps. 

Apparently, there is still a lot debating whether it really happened. Shooting seventeen aircraft in one day is certainly possible. Emil "Bully" Lang claimed eighteen victories in one day. They were achieved however on Russian front where opposition was much less potent, especially when mounted by lousy, poorly flown and maintained P-39s. Luftwaffe procedures were very strict when it came to confirmation of victories. To register one, pilot had to fill comprehensive victory report which was followed by combat report. To this, Gruppenkommandeur endorsement had to be attached. Then a report from Unteroffizier from air intelligence regiment was added. A report from a witness (or preferably two) completed the claim. There wasn't much room to overclaim, and the Luftwaffe was difficult to fool. It is worth noticing that in October 1941 long range nightfighting was abandoned, even though it resulted in many successful sorties over Britain. This happened mostly because it was impossible to confirm victories claimed by German Nachtjagd. Marseille's seventeen aircraft downed on September 1st was confirmed in Berlin.

Two days later heavy fighting continued. DAF's Kittyhawks MkIIs of the 260 squadron were trounced by Marseille's unit. A wild melee resulted with planes swarming around each other. Hans-Arnold "Fifi" Stahlschmidt (59 victories) wrote: "Today I have experienced my hardest combat. But at the same it has been my most wonderful experience of comradeship in the air. We had combat in the morning, at first with forty Hurricanes and Curtis's, later some twenty Spitfires appeared from above. We were eight Messerschmitts in the midst of an incredible whirling mass of enemy fighters. I flew my 109 for my life, but although the superior strength of the enemy was overwhelming, not one of us shirked our duty, all turning like madmen. I worked with every gramme of my energy, and by the time we finished I was foaming at my mouth being utterly exhausted. Again and again we had enemy fighters on our tails. I was forced to dive three or four times, but every time I did pull up and rushed into turmoil. Once I seemed to have no escape; I had flown my 109 to the limit of its performance, but a Spitfire was still behind me. At last moment Marseille shot it down, fifty meters from my aircraft. I dived and pulled up. Seconds later I saw a Spitfire behind Marseille. I took very careful aim at the enemy, and Spit went down burning. At the end of that combat only me and Marseille were left at the scene. Each of us has three victories. At home we climbed out of our planes and were thoroughly exhausted. Marseille had bullet holes in his 109, and I had eleven hits in mine. We embraced each other, and stand like this. We were unable to speak. It was unforgettable moment." 

But war was taking its toll. The strain of constant fighting was showing heavily on pilots faces. There was a lack of supplies and the ever-present threat of British commando. Marseille had even more to bear. Thanks to his presence the morale of I/JG-27 was high. He was an idol and much was expected from him every day. Especially when gruppe lost Steinhausen on September 6th, and Stahlschmit next day. By that time Jochen was a famous experten. He became the youngest Captain in Luftwaffe and the fourth man to whom the Germany's highest military award: "The Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds" was granted. Marseille was on a steady course to becoming one of the first 200-victories pilots when death struck. His last sortie on September 30 1942 was uneventful. At 10:47 they took off to escort Stuka dive bombers. The mission was completed and they were directed toward spotted enemy aircraft. Marseille's party failed to make contact and set a course for home. At 11:35 he indicated having smoke in the cockpit. His fellow pilots urged him stay in his 109 for a little bit longer, in order to reach German held territory. Once there, at 11:39 Marseille made his last radio transmission: "I have to get out. I can't stay here any more". At 10000 feet he inverted his faithful Messerschmitt and bailed out to his death. His body landed face down, 7 km south of Sidi.

* * *

Although the heat didn't encourage any activity, something told Mathias to wash Jochen clothes. Jochen liked to change into a fresh uniform after the flight. He always liked to look presentable. Mathias opted to use gasoline this time. They wash would dry in just few minutes. Usually, this was done by scrubbing uniforms with sand to rid it of salt, oil and grime. Everything was in short supply. Being a personal batman for Hans-Joachim Marseille, the most famous Luftwaffe pilot, had its advantages. For instance he was given a little of aircraft fuel for washing. Mathias liked being Jochens servant and he liked Jochen himself. They were friends. Mathias had barely started his chore, when the sound of approaching aircraft signaled to ground personnel to change torpidness for activness. Mathias put the lid on the soaking uniforms and started to walk towards the landing aircraft. He was looking for familiar plane which supposed to have number 14 painted in visible yellow on fuselage. It was supposed to land last. He noticed that three planes were missing, and last one to touch down had different number on it. Unalarmed, he turned toward Rudi who had already jumped on the ground from wing of his 109. He saw Mathias coming and cut short his conversation with his mechanic. His face was somber when he looked at Mathias and slowly shook his head. And Mathias understood immediately. He kept looking straight into Rudi's face for few more seconds, slowly turned and walked away. He noticed a strange sensation. No anger, sorrow, grief, nor resignation. He was calm yet something gripped his throat. Muscles on his neck tightened and he found it hard to swallow. He walked for few minutes without noticing others who were staring at him. He came to Jochen's colorful Volks called "Otto" and sat behind steering wheel. For a moment he looked like he wanted to go somewhere, but climbed out and approached the soaking uniforms. He looked at the canvas bag with initial H-J.M laying right beside it. He reached into his breast pocket for matches. Slowly but without any hesitation he struck a match and threw it on the laundry. Flames that burst out added to the already scourging heat. At that moment last rotte was flying in. Mathias intuitively lifted his head, following them. The lump in his throat got bigger.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 22, 2004)

I also rather like Josef Priller too.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 22, 2004)

it was only a matter of time before we found your little secret, i'm glad you've decided to be open about it now.........


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 22, 2004)

What are you on about?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 22, 2004)

you'll see.............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 22, 2004)

What?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 22, 2004)

i'll tell you when you're younger..............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 22, 2004)

If you mean at a younger mental age then im already as young as is physically possible


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 22, 2004)

i know, that's the best part


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 22, 2004)

Just tell me


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

I am lost again.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 23, 2004)

Dont worry, we all are


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

Just glad I am not the only one. Well incase I dont get a chance to get online tomorrow and the next day I want to wish you all a Merry Christmas. Have some eggnog spiked with rum for me.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 23, 2004)

Its the lancs fault. I said "I rather like Josef Priller too" and he statred saying completly pointless stuff. Oh well


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

Ah I see.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 23, 2004)

Shot down the most Spitfires of anyone else 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

Josef “Pips” Priller was born on 27 July 1915 at Ingolstadt in Bayern. In 1935, Fahnenjunker Priller was serving in Infanterieregiment 19. Oberfähnrich Priller transferred to the Luftwaffe and began his flying training at Salzwedel in October 1936. On 1 April 1937, Leutnant Priller was posted to I./JG 135. In November 1938 the unit was redesignated I./JG 233 and again on 1 May 1939 to I./JG 51. In July 1939, he was serving with I./JG 71 which was to be redesignated II./JG 51 in October 1939. On 1 October 1939, Priller was appointed Staffelkapitän of 6./JG 51. He gained his first victories on 28 May 1940 over Dunkirk in aerial combat with RAF fighters. He claimed six victories during the French campaign, including his 6th on 25 June, when he shot down a RAF Spitfire fighter near Desvres. By the end of August his victory total stood at 15. On 17 October, Oberleutnant Priller claimed his 20th victory resulting in the award of the Ritterkreuz on 19 October. He claimed at least fourteen victories in the Battle of Britain. On 20 November 1940, Priller was transferred as Staffelkapitän to 1./JG 26, succeeding Oberleutnant Eberhard Henrici (7 victories) who had been lost in aerial combat over the Channel three days previously. Despite much combat with the British, Priller was unable to add to his score before the end of the year. That winter, JG 26 was withdrawn from the Channel front back to Germany for a rest. On his return to the Channel Priller enjoyed a remarkable run of victories between 16 June and 11 July 1941 shooting down 19 RAF aircraft, including 17 Spitfire fighters, to bring his victory total to 39. On 14 July, Priller shot down his 40th victim. He was awarded the Eichenlaub (Nr 28) on 19 October for 41 victories. Hauptmann Priller became Gruppenkommandeur of III./JG 26 on 6 December 1941. By the end of 1941 Priller’s score stood at 58. He recorded his 60th victory on 27 March 1942 and his 70th victory on 5 May. 



Gruppenkommandeur of III./JG 26 Hptm. Josef Priller (right) explaining a dogfight to his wingmann Lt. Johann Aistleitner. On the rudder of Priller`s Fw 190 A-2 (W.Nr. 5310) "<< + I" are seventy-three victory bars. June, 1942. 

By the end of 1942 Priller had 81 confirmed victories to his tally. On 11 January 1943, Priller became Kommodore of JG 26, replacing Major Gerhard Schöpfel (45 victories, RK) who was taking up a staff role. He was awarded the Schwertern (Nr 73) on 2 July 1944. Oberstleutnant Priller brought up his 100th victory on 18 July 1944 when he brought down a USAAF B-24 four-engine bomber. On 1 January 1945, Priller led JG 26 and III./JG 54 in the attack on the Allied airfields, codenamed Operation Bodenplatte, at Brussels-Evére and Brussels-Grimbergen. On 28 January, Priller was appointed Inspekteur der Jagdflieger Ost, a position that required he cease operational flying and which he held until the end of the war. Post-war “Pips” Priller managed the family brewery business. He died on 20 May 1961 at Böbing in Oberbayern following a heart attack. 
Josef “Pips” Priller flew 1,307 combat missions to achieve 101 victories. All his victories were recorded over the Western Front and include 11 four-engine bombers. He was the most succesful pilot in battles with Spitfires claiming at least 68 of them.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 23, 2004)

Josef Prillers Bf-109E





and Focke-Wulf FW-190A-8


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## plan_D (Dec 23, 2004)

Notice how if they shot down more Spitfires than anyone else, they are automatically famous. Just shows how good the Spitfire was..


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

He was no doubt a great pilot. One of my fav was Heinz Bar though. I always liked him.

Heinz Bär was born on 21 March 1913 in Sommerfeld near Lipsk. By 1935, he had been trained to fly Luftwaffe bombers and then was posted to transport duty, flying Ju 52/3m. In the beginning of 1939 Heinz completed fighter training and was posted to JG 51. On 25 September of that year, Bär opened his killboard, shooting down a French Curtiss H-75 A-2 of GC I/4. During the French campaign of 1940, he scored seven more kills: 3 French and 4 British planes. In the Battle of Britain, while ten enemy fighters fell prey to his guns, Bär's Bf 109 returned to base heavily damaged a few times. On 2 September 1940 he experienced 'swimming' in the Channel's cold water, having been shot down himself... 

1941 brought the relocation of JG 51 to the Eastern Front. Here Bär's score rose quickly. On 2 July 1941 he was promoted to Leutnant and awarded the Knight's Cross, having totalled 27 kills. When he reached 60 victories, on 14 August 1941, Bär was decorated with the Oak Leaves. On one day, 30 August 1941, Bär scored 6 Soviet planes. From the beginning of 1942 Bär took command of IV/JG 51, and in mid-February he was awarded by Swords, having achieved 90 kills. In the spring of 1942, Bär was to face significant new challenges - - the heavy air battles in the southern part of the Russo-German Front, the Kerch Peninsula area. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In these days, two of the Luftwaffe 's top aces arrived to command positions in JG 77 in the Crimea: Hauptmann Gordon Gollob, whose score stood at 86, was sent from the Test Centre at Rechlinto take over as Geschwaderkommodore , and Hauptmann Heinz Bär with 91 victories to his credit was sent from IV./JG 51 on the Moscow front to take charge of I./JG 77. Both were highly awarded - Bär with the Swords to the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves while Gollob carried the Oak Leaves. These two men were however had diametrically opposed personalities. "Pritzl" Bär, the notoriously undisciplined Lepiziger who simply refused to fly on combat missions whenever he didn't feel 'inspired' and the harsh Nazi follower MacGollob of old Prussian military style definitely would have clashed, had not Bär's I./JG 77 hastily been transferred to the Mediterranean area a few weeks later. However, during the last two weeks of May 1942, Bär and Gollob practically 'took over' the air over the Kerch - Taman area. 

On 16 May, Heinz Bär proved his skills by shooting down two LaGG-3s - his 92nd and 93rd victories. Next day, Gollob followed by destroying three R-5 light bombers. He there after attacked a Yak-1 piloted by Sergeant N. K. Chayka. He hit the Yakovlev, saw it go down and returned home, reporting it as his 93rd victory (claiming it as a LaGG-3). Not caring much about the war in general, Gollob started competing with his subordinate in the cynical manner that characterized many of the Luftwaffe fighter aces during World War II. The fate of his last victim didn't bother the ambitious Gollob the slightest. Having suffered severe wounds from the machine guns and automatic cannon in Gollob's Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, the young Sergeant Chayka struggled at the controls of his damaged Yakovlev fighter. He managed to bring it back to the Khersones airfield, but lost control of it during landing and crashed into another Yak-1. Both planes were destroyed and Chayka was killed. 

Having returned to base, Gollob learned that Bär meanwhile had bagged three MiG-3s. Hauptmann Gollob continued to strive for successes, picking easy targets during the following days. In contrast to the common fighter tactic of attacking from above, Gollob preferred to sneak up from ground-level, to be surethat no-one tried to attack him from the blind spot beneath. An anonymous pilot of JG 77 wrote the following account of Gollob's way of fighting: 

'Gollob flew from Kerch together with his wingman. They positioned themselves at a low altitude beneath a Russian formation. Then they started climbing in spirals, carefully maintaining their position beneath the enemy formation. Before the peacefully flying Russians had even suspected any mischief, the two planes at the bottom of their formation had been shot down and the two Germans were gone.' (Prien: JG 77, p. 1018.) 

On 18 May, another three obsolete R-5 bombers fell prey to Gollob's private ambitions, raising his kill score to 96. Yet again he was surpassed by Bär, who got involved in a combat with twelve Soviet fighters over the Tamanskaya Sound and shot down two LaGG-3s. The same day, Heinz Bär's I./JG 77 was visitedby his personal friend, Jagfliegergeneral Adolf Galland . A detail in this context is that a deep animosity eventually would develop between Galland and Gollob. Having sacked Gollob from his post as fighter plane expert due to lacking competence in 1944, Galland as Jagdfliegergeneral soon found himself targeted by Gollob's plotting (in house arrest early in 1945, Galland was informed that Gollob collected material against him regarding his private use of Luftwaffe cars, his gambling and his notorious womanizing). 

On 19 May, Gollob and Bär both were in action. The former managed to bring down three R-5s again, but the magical '100th victory' slipped away. Meanwhile, Heinz Bär shot five Ishak fighters from the sky, for which he was mentioned in the OKW bulletin on the following day: 

' Hauptmann Bär, the Gruppenkommandeur in a Jagdgeschwader, achieved his 99th to 103rd aerial victories yesterday. The total victory tally of Jagdgeschwader 77 has increased to 2,011.' 

Next day, Gollob lurked along the Caucasus coast and managed to bring down a DB-3 bomber - being the tenth German fighter pilot to surpass the 100th victory score - followed by an unhappy LaGG-3." 

This text is an excerpt from the manuscript of a book "Black Cross/Red Star; German and Russian Fighter Pilots in Combat 1941-1945" dealing with the air war on the Eastern Front 1941-1945, which Christer Bergström is working on at the present. This book will give the most thorough-going account so far presented of aerial combat between the Luftwaffe and the Soviet Air Force during World War II. By carefully comparing German and Russian sources, Christer Bergström has arrived at many astonishing and hitherto unknown facts. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Soon after this exciting point in the irrivalry, in June of 1942, Bär's JG 77 was moved to MTO area. While leading I./JG 77, 'Pritzl' downed several British fighters over Malta . On 13 October 1942 his victims were three "Spitfires" (two of 185 Sgn and one of 1435 Sqn RAF). Another "Spitfire" was shot down four days later (17 October 1942) near La Valetta. Then Heinz Bär took part in combat missions in the hot African sky. In Tunisia, he scored his next 61 Allied aircraft victories (Nos 118-179). But the density of air activity from the start of the war combined with the hard battle conditions in Africa to seriously undermine Bär's fighting spirit, and exhaust him both physically and mentally. In effect, this famous ace was removed from command and sent back to Germany for 'rehabilitation'. 

The spring of 1944 saw Major Heinz Bär back in active duty as commander of the II./JG 1 in defense of the Reich. His first victory after so long a break, Bär's 200th, was scored flying FW 190A-7 'red 23' on 22 April 1944. A week later, on 29 April 1944, he took off with another personal FW 190 A-7, WNr 431007 'red 13' (see profile bottom). On this morning 28 fighters from his II./JG 1 were vectored against a USAAF bombers. "Pritzl" shot down a P-47 "Thunderbolt", for victory No. 201, and a few minutes later flamed a B-24 "Liberator" for No. 202. In 1944, he downed three Allied planes more, achieving 205 kills. 

In the beginning of 1945 Heinz Bär was moved to command the jet fighter school III./EJG 2 ( Lechfeld Schule ). In March of 1945 this school was reformed to an operational unit equipped with Me 262s. On 19 March 1945 'Pritzl' scored his first 'jet' victory - a P-51 "Mustang". In the hands of an expert the Me 262 proved it self a most deadly weapon: on 21 March "Pritzl" claimed a B-24, and three days later his victims were another B-24 and a P-51 (Nos 208-209). Until 23 April 1944, when Bär arrived at Galland's JV 44 he was credited with 13 'jet' victories. With the "jet experten" of JV 44, Bär downed two P-47s on 27 April. The final victory of "Pritzl" Bär in WW II was a P-47, downed over Bad Aibiling on 29 April 1945. 

With total of 221 victories Heinz Bär is ranked 8th among the Luftwaffe's top guns and with 16 Me 262 kills, he's the 3rd ranking 'jet' fighter ace of WW II. 

It's interesting to note that Bär was very fortunate - while achieving those victories, he was shot down 18 times himself! Bär's good fortune in the air left him on 28 April 1957, when he was killed in light plane accident in Braunschweig, Germany.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

Shooting down a Spitfire was a lot harder than shooting down a lot of the Russian aircraft but I think shooting down more than 100 aircraft made them really famous.


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## plan_D (Dec 23, 2004)

Of course, the Spitfire was just plain amazing. I'm still more impressed by those Finnish pilots who down Spitfires in a Buffalo but then the Spitfires did have Soviet Pilots.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

The Spitfire was a great aircraft non the less, one of the best infact. However I think that just like the Me-109 it was exceeding its capabilities by the end of the war and was outclassed by newer and better fighters.


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## plan_D (Dec 23, 2004)

Except the fact that the Spitfire Mk. XIV was the best dogfighter of the war.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 23, 2004)

The late war Spits were stil competitive, whereas the 109 was starting to get outclassed (Possible exception of the K-4)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

I dont know if I would call it the best. One of the best yes but the P-51 was also a great dogfighter.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

The problem with the K-4 it had great performance but it was not very highly maneuverable at highspeeds. Its climb speed also lagged.


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## Erich (Dec 23, 2004)

Green 7 of JG 300 ............K-4


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

How do you know that it is Green 7, I can not see the numbers on the tail.


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## plan_D (Dec 23, 2004)

In a dogfight the Spit. Mk. XIV massacred the P-51.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

Maybe but I would not say it was the best dogfighter of the war.


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## plan_D (Dec 23, 2004)

Then you'd be arguing against most people in the world.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

Maybe


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 23, 2004)

there was absolutely no way the spit was "exceeding its capabilities by the end of the war " as can be proved by all the post war marks..........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

An airframe can only be improved so much. I am sorry but it is true. The airframe itself can only handle so much.


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## plan_D (Dec 23, 2004)

Seeing as the Spitfire served post-war and was, in most peoples minds, the best dogfighter of the war. It certainly had not out-done itself.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 23, 2004)

and there were many post war marks with ever bigger engines, they proberly could have developed it more if we hadn't entered the jet age...........


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## plan_D (Dec 23, 2004)

Turbo-prop...did they have any turbo-prop Spitfires?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 23, 2004)

doubt it................


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## plan_D (Dec 23, 2004)

They did it with the Mustang.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

Many aircraft served post war the P-51 also. I am not saying the P-51 was any better then the Spitfire. The Spitfire was a marvelous aircraft dont take me wrong. However the airframe of the aircraft can only be strenghened so much and take so much before you can not upgrade it anymore. I highly doubt there were any turboprop Spitfires postwar. I really dont think the airframe could have taken a turboprop without being shaken apart.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

Yes but to put the turboprob in the P-51 it had to basically be rebuilt and this was not until 1967. The P-51 proved to be so useful that in 1967 the Mustang was put into production once again, this time by Cavalier and Piper. The Cavalier Turbo-Mustang III and Piper Enforcer were developed as Counter-Insurgency (COIN) aircraft with duties including light attack, Forward Air Control and interdiction roles.


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## plan_D (Dec 23, 2004)

Yeah, I know about the Mustang turbos. Mean looking bugger, ain't it? The Spitfire was still a better dogfighter than any of the war Mustangs, and as most people argue was the best dogfighter of the war. 

The Mk. VIII Spits in Burma (1943) were obliterating Zeros like they were nothing special.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

I am not denying that the Spitfire was not a great dogfighter but I personally just dont think it was the best. As for the zeros they never had a chance against a Spitfire or any of the advanced fighters of the European Air War I would think atleast. The Zero was a good aircraft also but against a Spitfire, P-51, Fw-190 or the later Me-109's I dont think it really would have had a chance.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 23, 2004)

so what do you think was the best dogfighter??


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

Um lets see I would go with the the Ta-152 or the P-51. Sorry I like P-51 better then the Spitfire.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 23, 2004)

don't see why you'd go for the P-51, the spit was the better dogfighter..............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 23, 2004)

The TA-152 never really got the chance to prove itself as a dogfighter...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

I disagree. The Spitfire was deffinatly better than the earlier then P-51's however the P-51D was no less then equal to the Spitfire. It could turn just as well, its performance was just as good. The P-51D was an all around great fighter aircraft. So was the Spitfire dont take me wrong.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

The Ta-152 would have made an outstanding dogfighter. It had great performance. Its only weakness was at low alltitudes.

Strengths:

Firepower - Armed with one 30mm and two 20mm cannons close to the centerline, the Ta-152 has enough punch and ammo to down several heavy bombers in a single flight.

High Altitude Performance - With a top speed of 472 mph at 41,010 feet only the jet and rocket fighters are capable of going higher and faster.

Weaknesses:

Low Altitude Performance - Utilizing an engine optimized for high-altitudes, the Ta-152 can only manage 332 mph at sea level and thus can be caught by even early-war planes.

Roll Rate - The extended wings help handling at high-altitude, but at the cost of low-to-medium altitude roll rates.

Ground Attack - Without the ability to carry ordnance of any kind, the Ta-152 has only its guns to help with the ground war.

With it becoming increasingly obvious that high-altitudes were the domain of air combat in Europe, the Focke-Wulf and Messerschmitt companies were asked in late 1942 to submit proposals for a Hochleistungsjäger, of High-Performance Fighter. The plan was for a two-stage development with the first fighter being based on an existing model, using many common parts, and the second being built from the ground up.

Kurt Tank submitted two proposals (Ra-2 and Ra-3) for the first stage based on the Jumo-213 powered FW-190D and third (Ra-4D), which although it was based broadly on the 190, was to incorporate numerous structural and aerodynamic improvements. Although Messerschmitt submitted a design, the Me-155B, officials thought that Messerschmitt had too many projects in work already to devote sufficient time to the task.

The Ra-2 and Ra-3 prototypes were essentially the same as the FW-190D-9s, except that they used the Jumo-213E with a three-speed, two-stage turbo-supercharger and induction cooler for improved high-altitude performance. MW50 methanol injection was installed and hydraulics replaced electric components for the flaps and landing gear. The fuselage was lengthened to improve internal capacity and, to compensate for the change in cg, the fuselage was moved aft 16 inches. Each plane was armed with a single 30mm Mk 108 engine-mounted cannon and a pair of 20mm MG 151 cannon in the wing roots. In addition, the Ra-2 prototype was fitted with another pair of MG 151s in the cowl.

By this time in the war Kurt Tank’s reputation in the Luftwaffe was riding high and in his honor, and at his request, the plane was designated the Ta-152 instead of being included in the FW-190 lineage. Ra-2 was dubbed Ta-152B and Ra-3 became Ta-152H. Meanwhile, the Ra-4D model, or Ta-153 as it was now known, had begun development out of the FW-190C project. Of particular note was it’s wing, which although it offered only marginal aerodynamic improvements, was much simpler and easier to build and had a much greater internal capacity for fuel tanks. Because of these advantages it was decided that this wing would be transferred over to the Ta-152 project, with the H version having extended wing panels.

A Ta-152H production line was setup at Cottbus and the first two production prototypes were produced in June and July 1944. Joining them on the production line were the five remaining FW-190C prototypes, which were slated for conversion to the Ta-152H. Conversion and testing of these prototypes continued through November while twenty pre-production Ta-152H-0s were also built and delivered, these differing from the production H-1s only in having their wing tanks deleted.

The Ta-152H was armed with a single engine-mounted Mk 108 with 90 rounds and a pair of 20mm MG 151s with 175 rpg in the wing roots. Internal fuel capacity could be increased by mounting an ETC-503 rack on the fuselage, which could hold a 300 liter tank. The H-0 weighed in at 10,420 lbs. loaded while the H-1 with its internal tanks weighed 11,502 lbs.

More than 150 Ta-152H-1 fighters were produced at Cottbus between January 1945 and the facility being overrun by the Soviet army. While no Jagdgruppen had converted fully to the machine, several Jagdstaffeln operated the plane alongside their D-9s and the Stabsschwarm of JG 301 was known to use the plane to provide top cover for Me-262 bases. However, the majority were likely destroyed on the ground by strafing Allied fighters while waiting to be accepted by the Luftwaffe.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 23, 2004)

The P-51 was designed to attack from a higher altitude than the enemy aircraft, meaning it has the initail advantage. I hear that when attacking at the same level or lower than the enemy aircraft though, it was nothing special.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

Many of the aircraft were designed to operate the most efficiently at higher altitudes. Bombers flew at around 36,000ft in WW2 so the fighters would climb up there to have a go at the bombers so the escort fighters had to be that high or higher, so naturally you would want fighters to operate well at high altitudes. Most aircraft operate less efficiently at lower altitudes and that goes for all aircraft including the P-51 and the Spitfire.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 23, 2004)

many british planes were found to be pretty good below 20,000ft, primarily the tiffy..............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 23, 2004)

Only the B-29 really flew that high. The B-17 was capable of 35,000ft, but it flew at about 15-20,000 ft during its bombing runs over Germany. This is an easy feat for the German fighters to acheive. German bombers flew very low, so the need for allied high altitude planes was very low. I am not saying the P-51 was a poor dogfighter, it was very effective when diving in on the enemy from a high altitude, as this was what it was designed to do. However like I said when the situation was a little more even the Stang wasnt much to shout about.

Concerning the Ta-152, yes it did have the capabilities for a great dogfighter, but as only a handful saw limited service it cant really be called the best as it didnt fully prove itself.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

The Tiffy failed as a fighter though and was a great ground attack aircraft. Ground Attack aircraft have to be good at low alltitudes. And I am not saying that they were poor at low alltitudes. I am just saying less efficient at low alltitudes. They operate better at higher alltitudes and that is most aircraft no matter who built them.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

I personally myself believe the Ta-152 would have been a better dogfighter than a Spitfire.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 23, 2004)

Most of the Russian aircraft were efficient at lower altitudes.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 23, 2004)

i stand by what i said, the spit outclassed the 109 even at low level.............


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## lesofprimus (Dec 23, 2004)

The Fw-190D-9 was a superior dogfighter at its operational altitude compared to any Mark of the Spitfire..... This is a fact....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 23, 2004)

even the post war marks??


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

I will agree that the Spitfire would outfly a Me-109 but I agree with Less that a Fw-190 could outfly a Spit.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

Maybe not the post war Spits but again given time the Fw-190 would have evolved into a better aircraft also and I think the Fw-190 had more room for improvement with its more ruggy airframe.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 23, 2004)

Yes, DerAdler, I agree..... Post war is a differnt topic altogether....


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## wmaxt (Dec 23, 2004)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Um lets see I would go with the the Ta-152 or the P-51. Sorry I like P-51 better then the Spitfire.



The P-38 was at a minimum equal to the task. There are stories such as the Spitfire pilot in a Mk XIV that was going to mock fight a P-38 and explain how much better the Spit was. The P-38 got on it's tail and could not be shaken - even with a low angle split s from 1,000ft. The Spit pilot didn't bother to land. As to the German planes in Art Heidens words "There was nothing more beautiful than a P-38L following a German fighter down, No matter what he did a spin, snap-roll, dive, flop or flip the Doomed German just could not get away"


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

Well you picture there of Boyingtons Bastards brings up an interesting discussion, what do you all think of Boyington?

Stories of Pappy Boyington are legion, many founded in fact, including how he led the legendary Black Sheep squadron, and how he served in China as a member of the American Volunteer Group, the famed Flying Tigers. He spent a year and a half as a Japanese POW, was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, was recognized as the Marine Corps top ace (more on that below). Always hard-drinking and hard-living, Pappy's post-war life was as turbulent as his wartime experiences.

Born on Dec. 4, 1912, young Greg had a rough childhood - divorced parents, alcoholic step-father (who Greg believed to be his natural father until he entered the Marine Corps), and lots of moves. He grew up in St. Maries, Idaho, a small logging town. Greg got his first ride in an airplane when he was only six years old. The famous barnstormer, Clyde Pangborn, flew his Jenny into town, and Greg wangled a ride. What a thrill for a little kid! 

Greg's family moved to Tacoma, Washington in 1926. In high school, he took up a sport that he would practice for many years - wrestling. Especially when he had had a few too many (which was often), adult Boyington would challenge others to impromptu wrestling bouts, frequently with injurious results. He enrolled at the University of Washington in 1930, where he continued wrestling and participated in ROTC. He met his first wife, Helene there; they were married not long after his graduation in 1934. His first son, Gregory Clark Boyington, was born 10 months later. 

Marine Aviator
After a year with Boeing, Greg enlisted in the Marine Corps. On having to supply them with his birth certificate, he only learned of his natural father at that date. He began elimination training in June, 1935, where (in the small world of Marine aviation at that time) he met Richard Mangrum and Bob Galer, both future heroes at Guadalcanal. He passed, and received orders to begin flight training at Pensacola NAS in January, 1936 with class 88-C. Here he flew a floatplane version of the Consolidated NY-2. Like another great ace, Gabby Gabreski, Boyington had a tough time with flight training, and had to undergo a number of rechecks. 
Until he arrived in Pensacola, Boyington, had never touched alcohol. But here, with hard-partying fliers, and aware of his wife's "fooling around," he soon discovered his affinity for liquor. Early on, Boyington established his Marine Corps reputation: hard-drinking, brawling, well-liked, and always ready to wrestle at the drop of a hat. But he kept flying, all through 1936, slowly progressing toward earning his wings, flying more powerful planes like the Vought O2U and SU-1 scouting biplanes. At Pensacola, he also met his future nemesis, Joe Smoak, memorialized in Baa Baa Black Sheep as "Colonel Lard." He finally won his coveted wings in March, 1937, becoming Naval Aviator #5160. 

Before reporting for his assignment with VMF-1 at Quantico, Virginia, he took advantage of his 30-day to return home, and reconcile with his wife Helene, who became pregnant with their second child. In those days Marine aviators were required to be bachelors; Greg's family was a secret that he kept from the brass, but he brought them with him to Virginia, installing them quietly in nearby Fredericksburg. He flew F4B-4 biplanes during 1937, taking part in routine training, an air show dubbed the "All American Air Maneuvers," and a fleet exercise in Puerto Rico. 

In March of 1938, VMF-1 aviators excited took possession of the latest, hottest Grumman fighters, the F3F-2s, the last biplane fighters used by US air forces. Powered by Wright-Cyclone engines of 950 horsepower, the fat-bellied aircraft were fast and rugged. In July, he moved to Philadelphia, to attend the Marine Corps' Basic School for ten months. Apparently not motivated by the "ground-pounder" curriculum, Boyington here evidenced the weaknesses that would haunt him: excessive drinking, borrowing money (and not repaying it), fighting, and poor official performance. 

His irresponsibility, his debts, and his difficulties with the Corps continued to mount throughout 1939 and 1940, when he flew with VMF-2, stationed at San Diego. One memorable, drunken night, he tried to swim across San Diego Bay, and wound up naked and exhausted in the Navy's Shore Patrol office. Despite his problems on the ground, it was during these days of 1940, flying with VMF-2, that Boyington first began to be noticed as a top-notch pilot. Whatever his other issues, he could out-dogfight almost anyone. Back at Pensacola in January, 1941, his problems mounted - he decked a superior officer in a fight over a girl (not his wife), and his creditors sought official help from the Marine Corps. Greg's career was a hopeless mess by late 1941. 

Flying Tiger
Rescue came from, of all places, China. Anxious to help the Chinese in their war against Japan, the U.S. government arranged to supply fighter planes and pilots to China, under the cover of the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company (CAMCO). CAMCO recruiters visited US military aviation bases looking for volunteers. As Bruce Gamble described it in Black Sheep One: 

The pilots were volunteers only in the sense that they willingly quit their peacetime job with the military; otherwise they were handsomely paid through CAMCO. Pilots earned $600 a month, flight leaders $675, plus a fat bonus for each Japanese plane destroyed. This was double or even triple the current military salary for pilots. ... In March, CAMCO representatives began recruiting military pilots for what would become the American Volunteer Group (AVG). ... One recruiter set up an interview room in San Diego's San Carlos Hotel, a popular watering hole for pilots. On the night of August 4, Greg Boyington found himself in the hotel bar simply "looking for an answer." Payday had been just a few days earlier, but already he was broke. His wife and children were gone, he was deeply in debt, and many of his superiors were breathing down his neck. 
The money looked very good to Boyington. Assured that the program had government approval and that his spot in the Corps was safe, he signed on the spot, and promptly resigned from the Marine Corps. While the AVG deal for pilots normally did contemplate a return to active U.S. military service, in Greg's case, his superiors took a different view. They were happy to be rid of him, and noted in his file that he should not be reappointed. 
He shipped out of San Francisco on September 24, 1941, in the Boschfontein, of the Dutch Java Line. After docking at Rangoon, the AVG fliers arrived at their base at Toungoo on November 13. He flew several missions during the defense of Burma. After Burma fell, he returned to Kunming, and flew from there until the Flying Tigers were incorporated into the USAAF. His autobiography includes many war stories from his experiences with the Flying Tigers, including: 
Buy 'American Volunteer Group
Colours and Markings
(Osprey Aircraft . Aces)'
at Amazon.com 

the voyage across the Pacific, the AVG fliers' cover story of ministers 
the Sultan of Johore's palace and wives 
arrival in Rangoon, Claire Chennault and Harvey Greenlaw 
Kunming and the three AVG squadrons 
first combat in February 1942, back in Burma 
Jim Adams and Bill Tweedy, the two older colonials, living a life of ease, and entertaining the American pilots 
a mechanic offering General Stilwell a can of tomatoes, "Hey bub, you want some of these?" 
the Allied retreat from Rangoon in March 1942 and the Flying Tigers' return to Kunming 
his botched escort of Chiang Kai Chek 
He clashed with the leader of the Flying Tigers, the strong-willed Claire Chennault. He quit the AVG in April 1942; Chennault gave him a dishonorable discharge, and Greg went back to the U.S. 

Boyington's Flying Tiger Record
Boyington claimed to have shot down six Japanese fighters, which would have made him one of the first American aces of the war. He maintained until his death in 1988 that he did, in fact, have six kills, and the Marine Corps officially credits him with those kills. From AVG records, which were loosely kept, he was credited (paid) for 2 aerial kills. Why the discrepancy between 2 and 6? I think Bruce Gamble, in Black Sheep One got it right. Gamble notes that in a raid on Chiang Mai, Boyington was one of four pilots who were credited with destroying 15 planes on the ground. As the AVG paid for destroyed Japanes planes, on the ground or in the air, Boyington lobbied for his share of the Chiang Mai planes - 3.75, to be precise. Later, while at Guadalcanal, he characterized his Flying Tiger record as including "six kills." For Greg Boyington, to add 3.75 ground claims to 2 aerial kills, round it off to six kills, and establish himself as one of the first American aces, was a "little white lie" indeed. But once his AVG number of six kills found its way into print, and his USMC victories started piling up, there was no going back. Dan Ford's Flying Tigers web site also has a detailed discussion of Pappy Boyington's claims with the AVG. 

(As my site only includes the aces' service with United States' armed forces, Pappy's USMC total is shown as 22, whether he shot down 2, 6, or none while a Flying Tiger for the Chinese government. I have received numerous e-mails on this topic, and while I concur with Bruce Gamble's analysis, both Gamble and I consider Pappy Boyington to be a great American hero, albeit a flawed one, as Pappy himself was quick to admit. - SS) 

While with the Flying Tigers, Greg also made the acquaintance of Olga Greenlaw, the XO's beautiful wife, who, in her own words "knew how to get along with a man if I like him." Apparently she and Boyington "got along." She wrote her own book, The Lady and the Tigers, in 1943. 

He returned to the States in the spring of 1942, and took up with Lucy Malcolmson; his first marriage having fallen apart. With some finagling, undoubtedly helped by the wartime demand for experienced fighter pilots, he was reappointed to the Marines in November, with the rank of Major. In January, 1943, he embarked on the Lurline, bound for New Caledonia, where he would spend a few months on the staff of Marine Air Group (MAG)-11. Here, he got his first close look at a Corsair, flown by his friend Pat Weiland. 
Boyington finally secured assignment to VMF-122 as Executive Officer for a combat tour; as usual, he clashed with his superior, this time Major Elmer Brackett. In the event, Brackett was shortly removed, and Boyington took over, but did not see much action. It was at this time, early 1943, when as the new CO of VMF-122, his claim of six kills with the AVG first made it into print. 

Smoak relieved him of his command of VMF-122 in late May, followed by a broken leg and time in the hospital. 

In the summer of 1943, as Boyington convalesced, the US naval air forces needed more Corsairs in the fight. Oddly, the key pieces - trained pilots and operational aircraft - were present in the South Pacific, but many of them were dispersed. Who got the idea remains unclear (characteristically Boyington claimed credit), but he was given the assignment to pull together an ad hoc squadron from available men and planes. Originally, they formed the rear echelon of VMF-124. 

In August of 1943, these 26 pilots, who would become the famous "Black Sheep" included: 

8 pilots had flown with Greg in VMF-122: Stan Bailey, Hank Bourgeois, Robert Ewing, Paul "Moon" Mullen, John Begert, Sandy Sims, Bill Case, and Virgil Ray. All but Lt. Ray had already downed at least one Japanese plane. 
Allan McCartney - 4 kills with a couple Marine squadrons 
Bob McClurg - originally with VMF-124 
Chris Magee, Bill Heier, Don Moore - all had flown with the RCAF 
John Bolt, Ed Olander, Rollie Rinabarger, George Ashmun - former 'plowback' instructors in the States 
8 First Lieutenants with no Corsair experience - Bob Bragdon, Tom Emrich, Don Fisher, Denmark Groover, Walter "Red" Harris, Ed Harper, Jim Hill, and Burney Tucker 
2nd Lt. Bruce Matheson 
In a complex, and common, wartime shuffling of designations, Boyington's team was redesignated VMF-214, while the exhausted pilots of the original VMF-214 (nicknamed the Swashbucklers) were sent home. Again, Bruce Gamble, the authoritative historian of these events, provides detailed answers in his book The Black Sheep ... Marine Fighting Squadron 214 ..., which fully chronicles both squadrons that used the number 214. 

Under Boyington as CO and Major Stan Bailey as Exec, they trained hard at Turtle Bay on Espritu Santo, especially the pilots who were new to the Corsair. Two other noted officers rounded out the squadron: Frank Walton, a former Los Angeles cop, became the Air Combat Intelligence Officer (ACIO), and Jim Reames the squadron doctor. (Walton would later author Once They Were Eagles ....) While leading this group of young pilots, most in their early 20's, Boyington - at the advanced age of 30! - picked up the nickname 'Gramps'. (The Black Sheep don't remember calling him 'Pappy'; that was a nickname that the press picked up after he was shot down.) 

In early September, 1943, the new VMF-214 moved up to their new forward base in the Russells, staging through Guadalcanal's famed Henderson Field. 

Black Sheep Aces Kills 
Pappy Boyington 22.0* 
Jack Bolt 6.0 
Bill Case 8.0 
Don Fisher 6.0 
Chris Magee 9.0 
Hank McCartney 5.0 
Bob McClurg 7.0 
Paul Mullen 6.5 
Ed Olander 5.0 

The "Black Sheep" fought their way to fame in just 84 days, piling up a record 197 planes destroyed or damaged, troop transports and supply ships sunk, and ground installations destroyed in addition to numerous other victories. They flew their first combat mission on September 14, 1943, escorting Dauntless dive bombers to Ballale, a small island west of Bougainville where the Japanese had a heavily fortified airstrip. They encountered heavy opposition from the enemy Zeros. Two days later, in a similar raid, 'Pappy’ claimed five kills, his best single day total. In October VMF-214 moved up from their orginal base in the Russells to a more advanced location at Munda. From here they were closer to the next big objective -- the Jap bases on Bougainville. On one mission over Bougainville, according to Boyington’s autobiography, the Japanese radioed him in English, asking him to report his position and so forth. Pappy played along, but stayed 5000 feet higher than he had told them, and when the Zeros came along, the Black Sheep blew twelve of them away. (The absolute veracity of Boyington’s autobiography is not certain, but that’s how he told the story.) One night with a quarter moon, he went up to try to deal with "Washing Machine Charlie," but without results. 

During the period from September 1943 to early January 1944, Boyington destroyed 22 Japanese aircraft. By late December, it was clear that he was closing in on Eddie Rickenbacker’s record of 26 victories (including his questionable 6 with the AVG), and the strain was starting to tell. On Jan. 3, 1944, Boyington was shot down in a large dogfight in which he claimed three enemy aircraft, and was captured. 

The following is an excerpt from Boyington's Baa Baa Black Sheep describing his final combat mission.

It was before dawn on January 3, 1944, on Bougainville. I was having baked beans for breakfast at the edge of the airstrip the Seabees had built, after the Marines had taken a small chunk of land on the beach. As I ate the beans, I glanced over at row after row of white crosses, too far away and too dark to read the names. But I didn't have to, I knew that each cross marked the final resting place of some Marine who had gone as far as he was able in this mortal world of ours. 
Before taking off everything seemed to be wrong that morning. My plane wasn't ready and I had to switch to another. At last minute the ground crew got my original plane in order and I scampered back into that. I was to lead a fighter sweep over Rabaul, meaning two hundred miles over enemy waters and territory again. We coasted over at about twenty thousand feet to Rabaul. A few hazy cloud banks were hanging around-not much different from a lot of other days. The fellow flying my wing was Captain George Ashmun, New York City. He had told me before the mission: "You go ahead and shoot all you want, Gramps. All I'll do is keep them off your tail." 

This boy was another who wanted me to beat that record, and was offering to stick his neck way out in the bargain. I spotted a few planes coming through the loosely scattered clouds and signaled to the pilots in back of me: "Go down and get to work." George and I dove first. I poured a long burst into the first enemy plane that approached, and a fraction of a second later saw the Nip pilot catapult out and the plane itself break out into fire. George screamed out over the radio: "Gramps, you got a flamer!" 

Then he and I went down lower into the fight after the rest of the enemy planes. We figured that the whole pack of our planes was going to follow us down, but the clouds must have obscured their view. Anyway, George and I were not paying too much attention, just figuring that the rest of the boys would be with us in a few seconds, as was usually the case. Finding approximately ten enemy planes, George and I commenced firing. What we saw coming from above we thought were our own planes-but they were not. We were being jumped by about twenty planes. George and I scissored in the conventional Thach weave way, protecting each others blank spots, the rear ends of our fighters. In doing this I saw George shoot a burst into a plane and it turned away from us plunging downward, all on fire. A second later I did the same thing to another plane. But it was then that I saw George's plane start to throw smoke, and down he went in a half glide. I sensed something was horribly wrong with him. I screamed at him: "For God's sake, George, dive!" 

Our planes could dive away from practically anything the Nips had out there at the time, except perhaps a Tony. But apparently George had never heard me or could do nothing about it if he had. He just kept going down in a half glide. Time and time again I screamed at him: "For God's sake, George, dive strait down!" But he didn't even flutter an aileron in answer to me. 

I climbed in behind the Nip planes that were plugging at him on the way down to the water. There were so many of them I wasn't even bothering to use my electric gun sight consciously, but continued to seesaw back and forth on my rudder pedals, trying to spray them all in general, trying to get them off George to give him a chance to bail out or dive - or do something at least. But the same thing that was happening to him was now happening to me. I could feel the impact of enemy fire against my armor plate, behind my back, like hail on a tin roof. I could see the enemy shots progressing along my wing tips, making patterns. 

George's plane burst into flames and a moment later crashed into the water. At that point there was nothing left for me to do. I had done everything I could. I decided to get the hell away from the Nips. I threw everything in the cockpit all the way forward - this means full speed ahead - and nosed my plane over to pick up extra speed until I was forced by water to level off. I had gone practically a half a mile at a speed of about four hundred knots, when all of a sudden my main gas tank went up in flames in front of my very eyes. The sensation was much the same as opening the door of a furnace and sticking one's head into the thing. 

Though I was about a hundred feet off the water, I didn't have a chance of trying to gain altitude. I was fully aware that if I tried to gain altitude for a bail-out I would be fried in a few more seconds. 

Prisoner of War
He landed in the water, badly injured. After being strafed by the Jap fighters, he struggled onto his raft until captured by a Jap submarine several hours later. They took him first to Rabaul, where he was brutally interogated. Even the general commanding Japanese forces at Rabaul interviewed him. Pappy related in Baa Baa Black Sheep, that the general asked him who had started the war. After Pappy replied that of course the Japanese had started the war by attacking Pearl Harbor, the general then told him this short fable: 
"Once upon there was a little of old lady and she traded with five merchants. She always paid her bills, and got along fine. Finally the five merchants got together, and they jacked up their prices so high the little old lady couldn't afford to live any longer. That's the end of the story." The general left the room, leaving Boyington to ponder that there had to be two sides to everything. 
After about six weeks, the Japanese flew him to Truk. As he landed there, he experienced one of the early carrier strikes against Truk in February, 1944. Along with six other captured Americans, he was confined in a small, but sturdy wooden cell - which might have been designed for one inmate. The only opening was a six-inch hole in the floor, for relieving themselves. With six men in a tiny cell, this was unpleasant enough. But when the Japs actually overfed them with rice balls and pickles, diarrhea resulted, and then the situation became really messy. 

He eventually moved to a prison camp at Ofuna, outside of Yokohama. His autobiography relates the frequent beatings, interrogations, and near starvation that he endured for the next 18 months. The guards, whose only qualification seemed to be passing "a minus-one-hundred I.Q. test," beat the prisoners severely, for any infraction, real or imagined. 

He lost about 80 pounds, and described how he once entirely consumed a "soup bone the size of my fist" in just two days, a feat which previously he would not have believed a dog could achieve. During the middle period of his captivity, he had the good fortune to be assigned kitchen duty, Here, a Japanese grandmother who worked in the kitchen befriended him and helped him filch food. Before long, he returned to his pre-captivity weight. He even got drunk on New Year's Eve, begging a little sake from each of the officers. From Camp Ofuna, he witnessed the first B-29 raids, striking the nearby naval base at Yokohama. 

When he was repatriated, he found he had been awarded the Medal of Honor and the Navy Cross. He also added to his claims for aerial victories after his return. Several other pilots had seen him down one Zero, which raised his total to 20 with the Black Sheep, and 26 if his claims for 6 with the Flying Tigers were included. 26 was Eddie Rickenbacker's WWI record, and also the number shot down by Joe Foss, the top-scoring Marine pilot of all time. Back in the States, in September of 1945, he claimed to have shot down two more planes in that final battle. Frank Walton, the ACIO, prepared the combat report, and Boyington signed it. As Bruce Gamble put it in Black Sheep One, "With a stroke of his own pen, Boyington was credited with twenty-eight victories, making him the high scoring ace in the Marine Corps." At the time, Boyington was being feted in a national War Bond Tour, patriotic feelings were running high, and he was a national hero. No one challenged the two additional claims. In all, Gamble makes a convincing case that Boyington's claims should be 22: 20 with the USMC and 2 with the AVG. 

Postwar Hero?
Pappy lived until 1988, but it was a hard life, marked by financial instability, divorces and marriages, and battles with alcoholism. (I must say that, whatever his problems, Pappy never seemed to lack for attractive female companionship.) Things started downhill on his War Bond tour, when he was frequently drunk, and on one infamous occasion embarrassed himself, the Corps, and the audience with a rambling drunken speech. After a brief attempt at collaboration, had a falling out with Frank Walton. His tangled affair with Lucy Malcolmson (still married to Stewart Malcolmson) broke up, quite publicly, when he took up with Frances Baker, who became his second wife. Now a PR liability, the Marine Corps placed Boyington on the retired list in 1947, allegedly for medical reasons. 
He moved from job to job, never able to stay with any one thing. He frequently refereed at wrestling matches. After a continued decline into alcoholism, he went on the wagon in 1956, and even joined AA. Things picked up for him in 1958 with the success of his memoirs, Baa Baa Black Sheep. He met Dee Tatum the next year, soon divorced Frances, and married Dee (his third). The 1960's were a real low period for Pappy, including estrangement from his own children. 

Of course, Pappy's greatest fame came in the mid Seventies, when the television show "Baa Baa Black Sheep" appeared. Based very loosely on Boyington's memoirs, the show had a three-year run, and achieved a consistent popularity in re-runs. Pappy was a consultant to the show, and got on well with its star, Robert Conrad. But the show's description of the Black Sheep pilots as a bunch of misfits and drunks, which Pappy happily went along with, destroyed Pappy's friendship with many of his squadron veterans, especially Frank Walton. The show made Pappy a real celebrity, and along with his fourth (!) wife Jo, he made a good career out of being an entertainer - appearing at air shows, on TV programs, etc. 

After a long battle with cancer, Pappy died in 1988.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

I also agree there were many aircraft that were equal if not better than a Spit at dogfighting.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 23, 2004)

> I also agree there were many aircraft that were equal if not better than a Spit at dogfighting.


HMMMmmmm.... Many u say???? If u take the Best dogfighting Mk of the Spit, ud find that # alot lower than many......

Some say the Mk IX was the better dogfighting Spitfire... Some say the Mk XIV was better..... Either way I think the Fw-190D-9 was better than both....

Would u care to mention which planes u feel make up the MANY that u feel were better???


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## wmaxt (Dec 23, 2004)

Another story I heard was once when he was basicly traped by 5 Zero's and a small cloud called for help with the following statement "Come on down and join me.. I got 5 Zero's cornered here".


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

I would say that the Fw-190D, Ta-152, P-51D, P-38L, Me-309 (if it had reached combat service) were atleast equal to the Spitfire. The later Mosquitos also handled really well and just maybe at low alltitudes could dogfight just as well as a Spit. Again I am not trying to dog the Spit, I am just saying that there were aircraft that were atleast equal or better.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 23, 2004)

I dont think I would say the P-51D was BETTER than the Spitfire Mk IX... With a pilot that knew how to fly it, i would say it was a close equal....

I agree with u on the -190D, -152H, and possibly the -38L....


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## plan_D (Dec 23, 2004)

The Spitfire was quite clearly better than the Mustang in a dogfight, and yes the P-51D. In a dogfight it would walk all over it. The only one that I see would match the Spitfire would be the 190D-9 and even then the Spit Mk. XIV had many advantages over it...still couldn't out roll the little bugger.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

That is all I said that the P-51D was atleast an equal. Again I am not saying that the Spitfire was not a great dogfighter. I just think that there were aircraft that were just as good and in my personal opinion it was not the best. I like the Ta-152 and the P-51D for dogfighting.


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## plan_D (Dec 23, 2004)

You might like the P-51D but it doesn't make it even an equal dogfighter with the Spit.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 23, 2004)

> Again I am not saying that the Spitfire was not a great dogfighter.


I think we all understand this now DerAdler hehe......



> I like the Ta-152 and the P-51D for dogfighting.


I certainly hope ur not saying the P-51D was a better dogfighter than the -190D9......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

The P-51D is not my fav aircraft I am just saying that in my personal opinion I think it was an equal to the Spit.


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## plan_D (Dec 23, 2004)

Really though opinion doesn't come into this. In a dogfight the Spit wins hands down. We're not talking aircraft ability here 'cos we all know the Mustang had much better range...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

No I think the 190D was a great dogfighter but I still stick to my guns about the Ta-152. She was a superb aircraft and I think would have put some brown stains in the underwear of the Spit flyers had it come out a bit earlier.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

Okay you may win on the P-51D however like I said I am sticking to my guns on the 190D and the Ta-152.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 23, 2004)

> yes the P-51D. In a dogfight it would walk all over it.


That Im not too sure about buddy... I think that if both pilots were experienced Aces, the combat would be closer than u are implying.... Probably pretty even win %.... The -51D was a hell of a plane planD..... So was the Mk XIV....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

As you all say the Spit XIV may have been a better dogfighter than the P-51D but it was not a walk in the park to beat even for the Spit. I agree with you on that Les. I will concede defeat thought that the Spit was better than the P-51D in dogfighting but not the Fw-190D or Ta-152.


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## plan_D (Dec 23, 2004)

I'm not saying the P-51 was a poor plane but it is a fact that the Spit. Mk. XIV was a better dogfighter. The Ta-152 and -190D-9 were both brilliant aircraft but the Mk. XIV could still safely tangle with them and more than likely come out on top.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2004)

Any how I need to go to sleep I have a really long day tomorrow. If I dont get to come online tomorrow or the next day and I am sure you all wont since its Christmas, I would like to wish you all a Merry Christmas and enjoy the hollidays.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 23, 2004)

Hoe Hoe Hoe....


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## plan_D (Dec 23, 2004)

How that reminds me of the Santa sexual harassment court-case...

"Is it true that not once, but three times you called my cilent a ho!?!"


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 23, 2004)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Any how I need to go to sleep I have a really long day tomorrow. If I dont get to come online tomorrow or the next day and I am sure you all wont since its Christmas, I would like to wish you all a Merry Christmas and enjoy the hollidays.



Merry Christmas to you too 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 24, 2004)

As I am sitting here in my tent over in Tikrit, Iraq I just opened a Christmas card from a little girl back in the states and in the card there was a story. I know this has nothing to do with WW2 aviation but I wish to post this story in honor of all the soldiers no matter what country they come from who are away from there families during this holiday season.

A Soldiers Christmas Story

Twas the night before Christmas, He lived all alone, in a one bedroom house, made of plaster and stone. I had come down the chimney with presents to give, and too see who in this house did live. I looked all about a strange sight did I see, no tinsel, no presents, not even a tree. No stocking by the mantel, just boots filled with sand, on a wall hung pictures of far distant lands. With medals and badges, awards of all kinds, a sober thought came through my mind. For this house was different, it was dark and dreary, I found the home of a soldier, once I could see clearly. The soldier lay sleeping, silent, alone curled up on the floor in this one bedroom home.

The face was so gentle, the room in disorder, not how I pictured a United States soldier. Was this the soldier of whom I had just read? Curled up on a poncho, the floor for a bed? I realized the families that I saw this night owed there lives to these soldiers willing to fight. Soon round the world, the children would play, and grownups would celebrate a bright Christmas day. The all enjoyed freedom each month of the year, because of these soldiers, like the one laying here. I couldn't help wonder how many lay alone, on a cold Christmas eve in a land far from home. The very thought brought a tear to my eye, I dropped to my knees and started to cry. The soldier awakend and I heard a rough voice, :Santa don't cry, this life is my choice; I fight for freedom, I do not ask for more, my life is my God, my Country, My Corps." The soldier rolled over and drifted to sleep, I couldn't control it, I continued to weep. I kept watch for hours, so silent, so still, and we both shiverd from the cold nights chill. I didn't want to leave on that cold, dark, night, this guardian of honor so willing to fight. Then the soldier rolled over, with a voice soft and pure, whispered, "Carry on Santa, its Christmas day, all is secure." One look at my watch, and I knew he was right. "Merry Christmas my friend, and to all a good night."


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 24, 2004)

awww that's so touching...................


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 24, 2004)

I will never forget this Christmas, sitting in out tents with the Christmas music playing and the sounds of mortors falling in the background.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 24, 2004)

i love christmas music...............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 24, 2004)

Yeah it is always great at Christmas time.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 24, 2004)

well you don't really hear it any other time of the year


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 24, 2004)

that is true


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 24, 2004)

mind you they start playing it in shops in October..................


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 24, 2004)

Yeah I always thought that was funny in the malls and stuff the christmas decos go up so early


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## Lightning Guy (Dec 24, 2004)

Especially here in the States were they manage to just completely skip over Thanksgiving. In a few more years they will start putting UP Christmas lights at New Years.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 25, 2004)

lol, perhaps they'll just not bother taking them down................


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 25, 2004)

That sound about right!


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## plan_D (Dec 25, 2004)

I just didn't bother putting them up...


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## Lightning Guy (Dec 25, 2004)

We gave up on decorating the house with lights years ago. It's just such a fuss! We do well to get a decent-looking tree up.


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## plan_D (Dec 25, 2004)

We just don't put anything up, no tree, no lights and no annoying tinsel.


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## Erich (Dec 25, 2004)

our place looks like a gingerbread house right now even with lights in the backyard trees. All the neighbors luv it ! this is the reason why we really do it, to share the joy of the season...........I make the time to do this for others.

E


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## plan_D (Dec 25, 2004)

Well, I'm like the modern scrooge and generally my family cares little about celebrating the birth of catalogue shopping.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 26, 2004)

Thats funny.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 26, 2004)

i like to make an effort, i like the christmas feeling..............


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 26, 2004)

Lightning Guy said:


> We gave up on decorating the house with lights years ago. It's just such a fuss! We do well to get a decent-looking tree up.



I hear that!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 26, 2004)

Yeah I always enjoyed the Christmas time though. I enjoy decorating the house with my wife and going to the Weinachts Maerkte here in Germany, especially when it is a white christmas.


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## Lightning Guy (Dec 27, 2004)

I live in the Southern US. The closest thing I've ever had to a White Christmas was one year when we had a morning frost. We are more likely to get snow in March than in December.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 27, 2004)

that sucks


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 27, 2004)

Actually, I wish that were me! I just finished digging out after the latest dump of the white stuff, and more is expected later today.
Did I ever mention how much I *hate* snow?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 27, 2004)

I love it, cant wait to see it again.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 27, 2004)

we always get crap weather but not much snow.......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 27, 2004)

Where I live in Germany it is the same we get maybe one good snow a year and then it just teases.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 27, 2004)

one good snow a year, boy you're lucky, we get half a snow a decade.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 27, 2004)

that sucks


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 27, 2004)

yeah and it never hangs around...............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 27, 2004)

yeah for the most part it does not here either


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## plan_D (Dec 27, 2004)

We don't get any weather extremes here. It's just grey, dull and often drizzle.


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## JCS (Dec 27, 2004)

We only got about 2 inches of snow so far this year, usually by this time we have about a foot. 

I usually like snow but im hoping it warms up and the snow melts so I can go try out the new bike I got for christmas:

http://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/030.000.000/030.000.000.asp?model=10879


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 27, 2004)

I just want to see some snow, the desert is cold as hell right now but no snow. (anyone suprised)


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 27, 2004)

Boy, Santa is travelling in style this year! And he's lost weight! 

Nice pic, Adler!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 27, 2004)

Yeah I hope I spread some joy flying the chaplain around to all the small fire bases out in the hotspots, it would make it atleast worth while if it did.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 28, 2004)

I see the lanc failed to mention we had a nice White Christmas here...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 28, 2004)

wish i could have had one


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 28, 2004)

no we didn't, we had some snow at night when it was to dark to do anything in it.....................


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 28, 2004)

that sucks


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 28, 2004)

yeah although i got my sister with a huge snow ball, which was nice.................


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 28, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> yeah although i got my sister with a huge snow ball, which was nice.................


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 28, 2004)

but alas, t'was late and there was no time for more.............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 28, 2004)

yeah thats always fun


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 28, 2004)

oh well maybe i will get some snow soon when i get back home


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## (G/C) Lionel Mandrake (Dec 29, 2004)

Photo-Recon pilots were just as able, if not better.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 29, 2004)

They were definitely a class unto themselves. They had to be infinitely more patient than a typical fighter pilot, with the steadiness of a bomber jock.
Brave guys, if you ask me!


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## (G/C) Lionel Mandrake (Dec 29, 2004)

Read up about a pilot called Adrian Warburton...Guts personified.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 30, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> no we didn't, we had some snow at night when it was to dark to do anything in it.....................



Yeah we did, It was snowing from about 11am to about midnight here.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 30, 2004)

well that's because you're on the moor, it was snowing all day there............


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## Lightning Guy (Dec 30, 2004)

The problem with examining PR pilots is that there is relatively little information on them. Also, how do you compare them? Granted merely comparing kills is an imperfect method of comparing fighter pilots but at least it does allow for some form of comparision.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 3, 2005)

Well we could compare who reconed the most significant thing in the war! No I just kidding. You are correct Lightning guy, atleast with fighter pilots you can compare who had the most kills or something. It is very hard to find info on PR pilots.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 3, 2005)

Who took the most photos?


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## Gnomey (Jan 3, 2005)

Erich Hartman. Never shot down and never lost a wingman in around 1456 missions. The ace of aces?


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 4, 2005)

You could make a case for Harman. But he seems like too obvious a pick. You also have to remember that it was a long time before he scored any kills.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 4, 2005)

"Time learning is time well spent!"


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 4, 2005)

Hartmann did get himself brought down several times by being hit by the debri from the enemy aircraft. Not that that makes him a bad fighter pilot. Erich is for me the best ever. He was so young but yet so eager to fly and fight. When he started no one expected him to last very long but he proved them wrong and wrong again. Yes it took him a long time to start getting kills but once they started coming no one cought up to him. He is the ace of aces. My second favorite is Heinz Bar, who was also one of the leading Me-262 aces of the war.



> Heinz Bär was born on 21 March 1913 in Sommerfeld near Lipsk. By 1935, he had been trained to fly Luftwaffe bombers and then was posted to transport duty, flying Ju 52/3m. In the beginning of 1939 Heinz completed fighter training and was posted to JG 51. On 25 September of that year, Bär opened his killboard, shooting down a French Curtiss H-75 A-2 of GC I/4. During the French campaign of 1940, he scored seven more kills: 3 French and 4 British planes. In the Battle of Britain, while ten enemy fighters fell prey to his guns, Bär's Bf 109 returned to base heavily damaged a few times. On 2 September 1940 he experienced 'swimming' in the Channel's cold water, having been shot down himself...
> 
> 1941 brought the relocation of JG 51 to the Eastern Front. Here Bär's score rose quickly. On 2 July 1941 he was promoted to Leutnant and awarded the Knight's Cross, having totalled 27 kills. When he reached 60 victories, on 14 August 1941, Bär was decorated with the Oak Leaves. On one day, 30 August 1941, Bär scored 6 Soviet planes. From the beginning of 1942 Bär took command of IV/JG 51, and in mid-February he was awarded by Swords, having achieved 90 kills. In the spring of 1942, Bär was to face significant new challenges - - the heavy air battles in the southern part of the Russo-German Front, the Kerch Peninsula area.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...



I have always been interested in this man and pilot and enjoy learning about his Luftwaffe career.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 4, 2005)

Bar was an excellent pilot..... He was one of the few Luftwaffe pilots that scored crazy kills IN BOTH THEATRES.......

Ill list the name then WEST Kills then EAST Kills...

Name
WEST/EAST

Obstlt Heinz "Pritzel" Bär 
125/96 

Maj Erich Rudorffer
86/138

Maj Anton "Toni" Hackl 
61/131 

Hptm Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert 
71/103 

Maj Joachim Müncheberg
102/33 

Maj Friedrich-Karl "Tutti" Müller
53/87

Obst Walter Oesau
73/44 

Maj Werner "Vati" Mölders
68/33 

Obst Herbert Ihlefeld 
56/67 

Maj Hans "Assi" Hahn
66/42 

Ofw Heinrich Bartels
50/49 

Maj Theodor Weissenberger
33/175

Maj Hans Philipp
28/178

Obst Johannes Steinhoff
28/148

Hptm Emil Lang
29/144

Obst Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke
25/137


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 4, 2005)

An excellent pilot he was. I was always intrigued by him and would have loved to have actually had a chance to meet him had he not died way before I was born.

Yes another great one on the east and west front as you posted was Erich Rudorffer.



> Over 1,000 missions. 222 aerial victories. Shot down 16 times, including 9 bailouts.
> He flew the Bf.109 in the Battle of Britain in late 1940.
> 
> He went to Tunisia in late 1942 when the Luftwaffe sought to check the American advances in North Africa. In February, 1943, he was flying the Fw.190 with J.G. 2 against the Americans. On the 9th, while based at Kairouan, his unit got word of an attack by dozens of USAAF bombers and fighters. They attacked the B-17s, as the P-40s, P-38s, Spitfires and Hurricanes came to defend them. In the ensuing dogfight, the P-40s went into a defensive Lufbery. But Rudorffer repeatedly penetrated it, and shot down six of the Curtiss fighters in a few minutes. As the dogfight broke up, he spotted some P-38s below, and destroyed two of them. Eight in one day! One of his best days ever.
> ...


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 4, 2005)

Moelders certainly would have been in the running for ace of aces if he had not died so early in the war.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 5, 2005)

I agree Moelders was an excellent pilot.



> Werner "Vati" Mölders was born on 18 March 1913, at Gelsenkirchen in the Ruhrgebiet. He joined the army in 1931 and served as an officer cadet in the Infantry. In 1934, with the rebirth of the Luftwaffe as a result of Hitler coming to power, Mölders requested a transfer to become a pilot. At his first attempt to join the Luftwaffe, he was declared unfit for flying. He tried again and was accepted for flying training. He was badly afflicted by air sickness but overcame the problem through sheer willpower. On 1 July 1935, Leutnant Mölders was posted to Fliegergruppe Schwerin (later to be redesignated I./StG 162). He was appointed Staffelkapitän of 1./JG 334 (later to be redesignated 1./JG 53) on 15 March 1936. On 1 April 1936, he was transferred to the Schulstaffel of JG 134 to undertake instructing duties. For two years he was an instructor at Wiesbaden. He volunteered for the Condor Legion and arrived by sea in Cadiz on 14 April that year. He took over from Adolf Galland at the head of 3.J/88. During the Spanish conflict he showed considerable qualities not only as a pilot and marksman but also, and especially, as a tactician and organiser. Together with other airmen, in Spain he developed the technique known as the "finger four", or fan, which improved a flight's all-round vision and encouraged the pilots' initiative. Between 15 July and 3 November 1938, he shot down fourteen aircraft: eleven I-16 "Mosca", two Polikarpov I-15 "Chato" and one SB-2 "Katyuska", as well as one unconfirmed I-16 victory, most of these at the controls of the Bf 109 C-1 coded 6-79 "Luchs". He was awarded the Spanienkreuz in Gold mit Schwertern und Brillanten in recognition of his achievements. At the end of the year he returned to Germany as the highest scoring German pilot of the Spanish conflict, with a glowing reputation and a maturity beyond his years and rank. At the beginning of World War II, Mölders was Staffelkapitän of 1./JG 53 "Pik As", based at Wiesbaden-Erbenheim. He became known by those under his command as "Vati" (Daddy) Mölders. He shot down his first aircraft of the Second World War on 21 September 1939, a French Curtiss 75 A fighter. On 1 November he went on to command III./JG 53, also based at Wiesbaden-Erbenheim. On 27 May 1940, after his 20th victory, a French Curtiss 75 A SW of Amiens, he was promoted to Hauptmann and decorated with the Knight's Cross. He was shot down in combat on 5 June 1940, by French ace Sous Lieutenant René Pommier Layragues (6 victories) flying a D.520 of GC II/7 after having scored 25 victories during 128 missions and was taken prisoner. He was liberated two weeks later upon the armistice with France. He returned to Germany to be promoted to Major and given command of JG 51 as Kommodore. On 28 July 1940, during his first flight with his new unit, he succeeded in downing a Spitfire, but his aircraft was then hit by the enemy aircraft. Severely wounded in the legs, Mölders just managed to make an emergency landing at the airfield at Wissant in France. It was not until a month later that he was able to return to combat, most likely flying the Bf 109 E-4 W.Nr. 2404 (photographed on 31 August with 32 victory bars), as well as W.Nr. 3737, (shot down over England while being flown by Hptm Asmus on 25 October, with no stab markings according to the crash report, but 49 victory bars). He quickly brought his score up by downing 28 British fighters during the remainder of the Battle of Britain, including his 40th, a Spitfire over Dungeness, on 20 September, for which he was awarded the Oak Leaves (No. 2) the next day. On 22 October he downed three RAF Hurricanes to become the first Luftwaffe pilot to reach a score of 50 aerial victories. By the end of the Battle of Britain he had a total of 54 victories, and he would add one more before the end of the year.
> He continued flying and fighting over the Channel Front until early May, by which time he had brought down an additional 13 British aircraft. On 22 June 1941, the first day of Operation Barbarossa on the Eastern Front, he shot down four Russian aircraft, one I-153 and three SB-2 bombers, his 69th through 72nd victories, and was awarded the Schwertern (No. 2). He was the first pilot to surpass von Richthofen's WW I record score of 80 on 30 June, when he shot down 5 SB-2 bombers to score his 78th to 82nd victories on a day that JG 51 claimed 110 SB-2 and DB-3 bombers. He shot down a further four enemy aircraft on 5 July for his 83rd to 86th victories. On 15 July he became the first pilot in history to record 100 victories and was immediately awarded the Brillanten (No. 1), the first German soldier to be so recognized. He was immediately forbidden to fly combat on the personal orders of Göring. At only 28 years of age, he was promoted to Oberst and appointed Inspector General of Fighters on 7 August. Even though ordered to cease flying combat missions, he continued to do so and achieved several unconfirmed victories over the Crimea. He personally instructed many pilots on how to achieve success, and helped develop the forward air controller concept. On 22 November 1941, he was flying as a passenger in a He 111 from the Crimea to Germany to attend the funeral of Ernst Udet. Landing during a thunderstorm at Breslau the aircraft crashed and Mölders and the pilot were killed. In his memory, on 20 December 1941, JG 51 was bestowed the honor name "Mölders".
> He flew a total of some 330 missions during the Second World War, 100 of these on the Eastern Front, during which he shot down a total of 101 aircraft, 33 of these in the East. He also was the top scorer of the Legion Condor in Spain with 14 victories achieved in some 100 missions, and helped develop many of the modern fighter tactics still in use today.
> Victories : 115
> ...


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## plan_D (Jan 5, 2005)

His death is made even worse that he didn't die in combat. The best possible way for a warrior, such as they considered themselves, to die was in combat not some crash as a passenger in a storm.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 5, 2005)

I agree. That is the same for all soldiers no matter what they do. I know I would rather die in combat than if my Blackhawk were to just crash from mechanical failure or somthing. Not that I want to die.


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## plan_D (Jan 5, 2005)

Those Blackhawks are brilliant Helis, they'll get you home under a lot of shit. You know that.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 5, 2005)

Yes they will. Anyways the pilot ethos has always intrigued me. They are all brave and command respect no matter which side they fought on. Not every person can climb into the cramped cockpit of a fighter plane and fly into the skies knowing that you may not come back alive. They are all truely great men.


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 6, 2005)

There are a number of top American aces who died, not from enemy action, but from flying accidents. Richard Bong, Thomas McGuire, Gerald R. Johnson, Danny Roberts, are just a few of these. Danny Roberts was especially tragic in my opinion. He was making a shard turn to stay on the tail of a Japanese fighter but his wingman was too slow reacting. The two fighters collided and both pilots were lost.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

Didnt Bong crash after the war though, test flying a P-80?


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 6, 2005)

Yeah.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

I knew it... 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

Man that sucks that has to be a really horrid way to die by flying into your wingman.


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## evangilder (Jan 6, 2005)

I read an interview with a guy who was the last one to see Dick Bong alive. He saw him flying over the road, steering the plane away from buildings to keep anyone on the ground from being killed. A hero to the end.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 6, 2005)

Yes he was.....

McGuire wasnt a flying accident.. He got into low level combat, didnt drop his tanks, and crashed into the ground.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

Well as for Dick Bong and all the other pilots who have done something like that, it takes a great man to do that and save so many lives even though you know your life is going to end. They are all heros. I have read many accounts of pilots who have done that mostly private pilots.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> Yes he was.....
> 
> McGuire wasnt a flying accident.. He got into low level combat, didnt drop his tanks, and crashed into the ground.....



Thats called a flying accident, he wasnt shot down...


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## evangilder (Jan 6, 2005)

That's true too, Adler!


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## lesofprimus (Jan 6, 2005)

No it was not an accident, it was a crash during combat maneouvering.... An accident is an accident...

Accident:
"Capt Right was decending when he accidently hit the wrong control and inverted his plane and crashed into the ground."

Combat Related Fataltity:
"Capt Wrong banked to the left at 50 feet while pursuing a Japanese Zero and clipped his wingtip into the ground, cartwheeling into a fire-balling mess..."


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> No it was not an accident, it was a crash during combat maneouvering.... An accident is an accident...
> 
> Combat Related Fataltity:
> "Capt Wrong banked to the left at 50 feet while pursuing a Japanese Zero and clipped his wingtip into the ground, cartwheeling into a fire-balling mess..."



Nope sorry man that is still an accident. An accident is something that did not happen on purpose. The guys who burned in a Blackhawk over hear a couple of months ago were on a combat mission when they turned to sharply and lost power and could not gain it back and hit the ground. That is an accident. So if he did not drop his tanks and hit the ground that would be an accident also. I do understand what you are saying but if he was not shot down then it would be an aircraft accident or some people would say an aircraft mishap.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

He wasnt supposed to crash, therefore = accident. An accident during combat manoevering.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 6, 2005)

Mince words if u like, but when u say Flying Accident, I dont think about combat crashes, I think of accidents.... Whatever...... Who cares..... McGuires still dead cause of his stupidity, not an accident....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

I guess you can put it that way.


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## plan_D (Jan 7, 2005)

Or a combat accident.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 7, 2005)

Actually I think combat accident is the best way of putting it 8)


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## plan_D (Jan 7, 2005)

Yes. The plane wasn't lost to enemy action but was lost by accident while tangling with the enemy in combat. Combat accident.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 7, 2005)

i wouldn't put it like that...........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 7, 2005)

plan_D said:


> Or a combat accident.



Yeah that is the best way to put I think.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 7, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> i wouldn't put it like that...........



How would you put it?


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 8, 2005)

However you put it, McGuire was still listed as a KIA.

Interestingly, his fateful mission occurred 60 years ago today. 

Personally, I cannot help but feel that McGuire would have survived the war if he hadn't been so obsessed with surpassing Bong's record.


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## evangilder (Jan 8, 2005)

You're probably right. Sad that his ego got him killed.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

Actually I believe it was his lack of situational awareness that allowed him to cartwheel into the jungle swamp.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

There were a lot of Rivalry between pilots one that stands out to me was the one between Heinz Bar and Gordon Gollob:



> 1941 brought the relocation of JG 51 to the Eastern Front. Here Bär's score rose quickly. On 2 July 1941 he was promoted to Leutnant and awarded the Knight's Cross, having totalled 27 kills. When he reached 60 victories, on 14 August 1941, Bär was decorated with the Oak Leaves. On one day, 30 August 1941, Bär scored 6 Soviet planes. From the beginning of 1942 Bär took command of IV/JG 51, and in mid-February he was awarded by Swords, having achieved 90 kills. In the spring of 1942, Bär was to face significant new challenges - - the heavy air battles in the southern part of the Russo-German Front, the Kerch Peninsula area.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "In these days, two of the Luftwaffe 's top aces arrived to command positions in JG 77 in the Crimea: Hauptmann Gordon Gollob, whose score stood at 86, was sent from the Test Centre at Rechlinto take over as Geschwaderkommodore , and Hauptmann Heinz Bär with 91 victories to his credit was sent from IV./JG 51 on the Moscow front to take charge of I./JG 77. Both were highly awarded - Bär with the Swords to the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves while Gollob carried the Oak Leaves. These two men were however had diametrically opposed personalities. "Pritzl" Bär, the notoriously undisciplined Lepiziger who simply refused to fly on combat missions whenever he didn't feel 'inspired' and the harsh Nazi follower MacGollob of old Prussian military style definitely would have clashed, had not Bär's I./JG 77 hastily been transferred to the Mediterranean area a few weeks later. However, during the last two weeks of May 1942, Bär and Gollob practically 'took over' the air over the Kerch - Taman area.
> 
> ...


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 8, 2005)

Lightning Guy said:


> However you put it, McGuire was still listed as a KIA.
> 
> Interestingly, his fateful mission occurred 60 years ago today.
> 
> Personally, I cannot help but feel that McGuire would have survived the war if he hadn't been so obsessed with surpassing Bong's record.



Wow, interesting 8) 

Yes, I agree. However I think he has become more well known than Bong. Or maybe thats just me.


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 8, 2005)

Well, the more I am reading about McGuire, the less I like him as a person. Many of his squadron mates found him brash and annoying. He was supremely confident (which isn't bad for a fighter pilot) but in his case it blossomed into regular bragging. He would often chew out pilots who destroyed a plane he was attacking. Reportedly, he even got on Bong's nerves who was supposed to be remarkedly calm. That being said, McGuire was a pilot of phenomenal skill. Unfortunately, his skill couldn't keep up with his ego. If I were to guess, I would say the best fighter pilot of the war had equal parts ego and skill.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

I agree.... Ive read alot concerning McGuire, and the sentiments are all the same.. He was a Prick, plain and simple... Disliked by just about everyone.... He practically made Charles Lindbergh his house boy.....


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 8, 2005)

Still, he should be considered a hero who gave his all in the service of his country. I might not like him, but I certainly respect him for what he did.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

I agree.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

Any pilot who steps into the cockpit day in and day out for there country says something. They should be respected and honored. It is a risky and dangerous business. Not only do you have to contend with enemy fighters but with mechanical failure, the weather, and just making a mistake. It is not like driving a car, one slight mistake will get you killed. I think an ego should be allowed to an extent among pilots but yes sometimes it can go to far and you are disliked by everyone. Anyway my hats off to him just for what he was and what he did.


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 8, 2005)

And lets not forget the navigational difficulties facing the pilots of single-seat fighters with 1940s technology.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 8, 2005)

McGuire may have been an asshole, but he was an extremely skilled (or lucky) asshole who put his neck on the line like everyone else! My hat's off to him, too!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 9, 2005)

Amen


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 10, 2005)

No disagreement here. Personally, I would have liked the chance to fly with him. The men of the 475th all agreed that he was a most effective pilot and combat leader. It was only when they had landed that the serious problems arose . . .


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 10, 2005)

Yeah it is always that way, I have flown with people on missions where in the cockpit they are just fine and everything is good but as soon as the mission is over and we are all at the local pub having a few beers they become such arrogant assholes that you just want to push them in front of a car.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 10, 2005)

I think we all know a few like that.... Some of the guys I worked with in the SEALs were idiots in civilian clothes, but come down to it, I could trust my life to them, so it all worked out in the end....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 10, 2005)

trust is the only thing you have


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 10, 2005)

Nothing as intense as the SEALS naturally, but I work with guys like that every day, too.
I wouldn't trust them with my wallet or my wife, but I'd trust them with my life!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 10, 2005)

I agree, I know several like that now.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 10, 2005)

Sometimes the Military brings out the best in people....


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## evangilder (Jan 10, 2005)

True, the best and the worst for others! I know what you mean about counting on them when the fit hits the shan, but not with your wallet. Funny, but true. How many guys have you lent money to, knowing you'd never get it back?


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 10, 2005)

Only one, and he paid me back in booze so it wasn't a total loss.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 10, 2005)

Yeah just one but he was there when it really mattered. But then later he stole my TV and got sent some place else so I never got it back. Funny huh.


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## evangilder (Jan 10, 2005)

Yup, I lost track of money/items lost. Oh well. I wasn't going to quibble too much about $50 or so. It sucks to lose it, but I usually got it back some other way as a favor or drinks (like you).


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 10, 2005)

Yeah I felt the same pretty much.


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## Erich (Jan 30, 2005)

well none of the pilots now afer I set my mind to doing more study over the last week. German RK mit Swords winner Anton "Toni" Hackl from JG 11 fame. Last Kommodore of the unit scoring some 17 kills in the Ost during 1945 and the defence of Berlin. an incredible pilot flying many sorts of German single engine a/c including the Dora with JG 26 in the laste fall winter of 44/45 then to JG 300 breifly and then back to JG 11.

He has one of the most interesting looking Fw 190A-8's in JG 11 during the Reichsvertidigung in the spring of 44 with white tail, victory markings and his personal emblem on the side of the fuselage. In fact all of the Stab I./JG 11 are interesting . shot down 8 times during the war, over 1000 missions

E


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 30, 2005)

My favorite as I have stated before always has been Erich Hartmann but I think the ones that I enjoy reading the most about are Heinz Baer, Marseille, Nowotny and Galland.


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## P51ace 16 (Feb 20, 2005)

Richard Ira Bong is and always be the best P38 pilot


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 20, 2005)

McGuire was better than Bong


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## P51ace 16 (Feb 21, 2005)

Whateva


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 7, 2005)

I agree I like McGuire better. Though I dont keep up with US fighter pilots too much.


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## DJ_Dalton (Mar 7, 2005)

Lightning Guy said:


> There are a number of top American aces who died, not from enemy action, but from flying accidents. Richard Bong, Thomas McGuire, Gerald R. Johnson, Danny Roberts, are just a few of these. Danny Roberts was especially tragic in my opinion. He was making a shard turn to stay on the tail of a Japanese fighter but his wingman was too slow reacting. The two fighters collided and both pilots were lost.



The Thomas McGuire story is certainly not what it seems. They actually gave him a Medal of Honor for the poor decision making that resulted in the deaths of himself and one of those under his command. He almost got the whole flight (4) killed. The two survivors took battle damage. The sortie was apparently not officially authorized. It was a sortie to allow McGuire to pick the kills rather than have the flight destroy the enemy as efficiently and as safely as possible. You see, McGuire was only 2 kills from Richard Bong and he was already overdue to rotate State Side. The sortie was a "Glory Sortie" set up by McGuire, for McGuire. 

Additionally, it was a sortie in poor visibility conditions and McGuires uncontroverted orders to "Hold the Drop Tanks" should have disqualified him from the Medal of Honor. Usually, you need to save the lives of your comrades to earn that medal, but sometimes the truth and morale aren't necessarily compatible. This is a fact in the U.S. Military, or any military for that matter. The U.S. Military doesn't have dibbs on lying. At least not in the WWII era. 

But, I digress. Theres only one from McGuire's final sortie alive now. If anyone is really interested in how and why brave men die following are a couple links I'd recommend reading. Iraq should be proof enough that you can't trust the Pentagon.

What Really Happened to Tom McGuire?:  [url]http://www.aerothentic.com/history/articles/McGuire.htm
[/url]

Captain Weavers "Combat" Report:  [url]http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/afp/tmcr.htm [/url]


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 8, 2005)

Yes mistakes kill people and that is true. But please tell me what the Pentagon has to do with this, as an Iraq veteran I would like to know what it has to do with WW2 fighter aces. I agree that poloticians can not be trusted but I dont see the relevance.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 8, 2005)

it was an accident that started the great war, the group that assinated Frenz Ferdinand (the black hand), wouldn't have suceeded if the driver of the car he was in hadn't taken a wrong turn by accident, no assination, no WWI, no WWI no WWII............

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## kiwimac (Mar 8, 2005)

This thread closed, New one opened. New one is NOT a poll thread.

Kiwimac

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## kiwimac (Mar 8, 2005)

This thread is locked. Continued in new Thread as a non-polling thread.

Kiwimac


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