# Spitfire and P-38 (?) Captured, based at which German airfield?



## B-17engineer (Aug 20, 2010)

Hi guys, reading my book

JG 301/302 Wilde Sau I saw this picture. Its a Spitfire and what appears to be a P-38 in the background, the caption or tezt doesn't state where they are. Does anyone have info?


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## Airframes (Aug 21, 2010)

Looks like they are both part of 'Zirkus Rosarius' H. The unit travelled around, demonstrating captured aircraft to the JGs and KGs, and doing comparison flights etc. So, the pic could be anywhere - unless someone has the same pics in another publication, with a caption stating exactly where.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 21, 2010)

I believe a lot of captured aircraft ended up in Echterdingen near Stuttgart. I am not sure of this however.


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## B-17engineer (Aug 21, 2010)

I'm wondering since the book is about JG 301/302 if they were displaying them at one of their airfields at the time? 

Thanks for the input guys


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## Airframes (Aug 21, 2010)

I think Chris is right, Echterdingen was, I believe, their main base, and a testing / research centre, from where they toured. Very possibly could be taken at one of the JG 301 / 302 airfields though. The problem with some of these pics is that they are 'stock' shots, used just to illustrate the aircraft concerned, and the location might not be known.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 21, 2010)

The aircraft actually belong to KG 200. I have the same pictures in my KG 200 book. 

I am pretty sure that Echterdingen was at least one of the main bases for these aircraft. My father used to fly Hueys out of Echterdingen back in the 90s.


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## Airframes (Aug 21, 2010)

Heck, I forgot I have the KG200 book, by P.W. Stahl. The answer might be in there somewhere, but it's so many years since I looked at it I'd have to read through it again.


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## B-17engineer (Aug 21, 2010)

Thanks guys! I was thinking, oh a spitfire captured that's prety normal and I saw the P38 and thought it was pretty cool.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 22, 2010)

Airframes said:


> Heck, I forgot I have the KG200 book, by P.W. Stahl. The answer might be in there somewhere, but it's so many years since I looked at it I'd have to read through it again.




I have the same book. I will give it a look too.


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## antoni (Aug 23, 2010)

There was more than one.


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## Snautzer01 (Aug 23, 2010)

Supermarine Spitfire PR.XI coded T9+BB


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 23, 2010)

I'd like to know where the author of the book where the 3rd photo from the top is shown (The machine here was probably delivered by a defector in northern Italy) can make that kind of assumption.


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## B-17engineer (Aug 23, 2010)

I did some research and it says that was taken at Stendal...


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## Airframes (Aug 23, 2010)

Joe, when I saw that caption, my immediate reaction was 'How can you state that?!' 
Maybe if there is some vague shred of a hint of defection, the caption should have read possibly, not probably, but it strikes me as highly unlikely anyway.


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## B-17engineer (Aug 23, 2010)

I know there was a P-38 delievered by an American Nazi Sympathizer. He was enlisted in the USAAF and flew a P-38 back to Italy...


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 23, 2010)

Airframes said:


> Joe, when I saw that caption, my immediate reaction was 'How can you state that?!'
> Maybe if there is some vague shred of a hint of defection, the caption should have read possibly, not probably, but it strikes me as highly unlikely anyway.



Agree;

I think we would all have known many years ago about any US pilot defecting with an intact aircraft!


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## B-17engineer (Aug 23, 2010)

Joe, I don't know how accurate this is but


"When it was a German piloted Allied aircraft trying to sneak in to shoot other planes down with kinetic energy (KE) bullets and small high explosive cannon shells that didn't produce the right radio response it was immediately shot down or forced away. The classic example of this False Flag Cat vs. Mouse game was the dual between an American YB-40 (B-17 gunship) bomber pilot versus an Italian pilot in a captured P-38 fighter. And YES, we had American Nazi traitors like USAAF LT. Martin Monti who stole a P-38."


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 23, 2010)

B-17engineer said:


> Joe, I don't know how accurate this is but
> 
> 
> "When it was a German piloted Allied aircraft trying to sneak in to shoot other planes down with kinetic energy (KE) bullets and small high explosive cannon shells that didn't produce the right radio response it was immediately shot down or forced away. The classic example of this False Flag Cat vs. Mouse game was the dual between an American YB-40 (B-17 gunship) bomber pilot versus an Italian pilot in a captured P-38 fighter. And YES, we had American Nazi traitors like USAAF LT. Martin Monti who stole a P-38."



FALSE!

That story was fabricated by Martin Cadin in the book "The Forked Tailed Devil." YB-40s were NEVER used anywhere close to Italy and their combat career is well documented.


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## B-17engineer (Aug 23, 2010)

Thanks for that bit of info, did he fabricate it on purpose or was he given bad information?


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 23, 2010)

B-17engineer said:


> Thanks for that bit of info, did he fabricate it on purpose or was he given bad information?



Cadin was a very entertaining writer. He might have taken a myth and just expanded it to sell his book never realizing how computers can now link information together in seconds where in his day it would take weeks or even months to research. Many people took stuff like this at face value 30 and 40 years ago.


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## B-17engineer (Aug 23, 2010)

Ahh interesting, appreciate it Joe!


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## antoni (Aug 26, 2010)

FLYBOYJ said:


> I'd like to know where the author of the book where the 3rd photo from the top is shown (The machine here was probably delivered by a defector in northern Italy) can make that kind of assumption.



The only assumption here is that if something offends your sensibilities it cannot be true. The author's judgment does not suffer from that impediment. 

The third photograph is thought to be the F-6e s/n 44-23725, delivered by the defector, or deserter if you prefer, Lt. Martin J. Monti of the USAAF to a German air base near Milan on 13th October 1944. The aircraft was first assigned to the Verschuchsverband which was the trials and research unit of the Luftwaffe high command, receiving German national insignia, yellow undersides, and the code T9+MK. Forth photograph. Next it went to Zirkus Rosarius which flew captured Allied aircraft to German bases so that they could be studied by pilots.At the end of the war it was discovered by advancing American troops at Schoengau, Austria. Fifth photograph. It was probably destroyed soon afterwards. 

Mont was repatriated and court-martialled for stealing the F-5. Monti claimed that he had bailed out of the Lightning and had not delivered it to the Germans. Monti remained in the new USAF and was released in 1948 with the rank of sergeant. Upon his separation from the service, he was arrested by the FBI for treason, and put on trial. The FBI claimed they had found new information that Monti was aiding the Nazis with radio propaganda broadcasts. He was sentenced to of 28 years in a federal prison and was released in 1977. Some say this an overly-harsh sentence but William Joyce was hanged for not much more.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 26, 2010)

antoni said:


> The only assumption here is that if something offends your sensibilities it cannot be true. The author's judgment does not suffer from that impediment.


Antoni, I don't appreciate that tone and if I'll tell you right now you're on a short leash. One more [email protected] crack like that and you'll be launched into cyberspace.


antoni said:


> The third photograph is thought to be the F-6e s/n 44-23725, delivered by the defector, or deserter if you prefer, Lt. Martin J. Monti of the USAAF to a German air base near Milan on 13th October 1944. The aircraft was first assigned to the Verschuchsverband which was the trials and research unit of the Luftwaffe high command, receiving German national insignia, yellow undersides, and the code T9+MK. Forth photograph. Next it went to Zirkus Rosarius which flew captured Allied aircraft to German bases so that they could be studied by pilots.At the end of the war it was discovered by advancing American troops at Schoengau, Austria. Fifth photograph. It was probably destroyed soon afterwards.
> 
> Mont was repatriated and court-martialled for stealing the F-5. Monti claimed that he had bailed out of the Lightning and had not delivered it to the Germans. Monti remained in the new USAF and was released in 1948 with the rank of sergeant. Upon his separation from the service, he was arrested by the FBI for treason, and put on trial. The FBI claimed they had found new information that Monti was aiding the Nazis with radio propaganda broadcasts. He was sentenced to of 28 years in a federal prison and was released in 1977. Some say this an overly-harsh sentence but William Joyce was hanged for not much more.



And I'll stand corrected about this fact. Had the photo caption said some thing about this it would have been believable at first glance. The story about this guy and the YB-40 is pure fiction.


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