# Bf 109- Bf? or Me?



## MichaelHenley (Jan 7, 2006)

Hi guys!
Just a question from me:
I have a small diecast model of a Bf 109. On the base of the stand it came with it says Me-109.

What is the difference there for? Was there ever a variant, or is it a typo? And what does "Bf" Stand for?

In other news, I've been to europe, I went to the IWM Duxford and RAF Museum at Hendon- both of those were fantastic! Dad was thrilled at Duxford to be able to see an SR-71.
One of my favourite bombs on display was the "Airfield Denial" one they used in the gulf war...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 7, 2006)

this's been over several times..........


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## loomaluftwaffe (Jan 7, 2006)

Bf stands for Bayerische Flugzeugwerke it still said Bf even after Meserschmitt bought that company. Later it was changed to Messerschmitt Flugzeugwerke. oh and there have been topics like this before...


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 7, 2006)

All Messerschmitts prior to the Bf-162 (Bf-109, Bf-110) have the correct designation of Bf, all those afterwards (Me-210, Me-163, Me-262) are designated Me.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2006)

loomaluftwaffe said:


> Bf stands for Bayerische Flugzeugwerke it still said Bf even after Meserschmitt bought that company. Later it was changed to Messerschmitt Flugzeugwerke. oh and there have been topics like this before...



We have gone all over this before. Messerschmitt did not buy the Company. Willie Messerschmitt joined the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke which brought all the Bavarian companies together. Originally all aircraft that were designed recieved the prefix based off of there company hense Bf and not Me. Later and this happened between the Bf-162 and the Me-163 the prefix's came from the chief designer of the company hense Me-262, however the Bf-109 retained the Bf prefix even after this happened.

Go check out the Bf-109 thread that I have started because a lot of people have asked a lot of Bf-109 questions and I wish to consolidate them.


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## MichaelHenley (Jan 8, 2006)

oops! sorry guys


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2006)

Nothing to be sorry about, you did not know.


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## Lunatic (Jan 9, 2006)

I'm pretty sure that Me109 is also proper for later model 109's, as that is the factory production designation.

Emmanual Gustin once presented info on this in reponse to my comment that Me109 was incorrect.

=S=

Lunatic


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 9, 2006)

Me-109 is pretty much acceptable and given and both are correct, however if you actually look at RLM documents and Messerschmitt Documents it is Bf-109. The 109 was the only one that officially kept the designation.


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## schwarzpanzer (Jan 10, 2006)

> Bf 109 was the official Reichsluftfahrtministerium designation, since the design was sent in by the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke company. Because the company was renamed to Messerschmitt, some late-war aircraft actually carried the Me 109 designation stamped onto their aircraft type plates. Me 109 was the name used officially by the Luftwaffe propaganda publications as well as by the Messerschmitt company and the Luftwaffe personnel, who pronounced it 'may hundred-nine'. ME 109 (pronounced 'emm ee one-oh-nine') was the contemporary English interpretation of the designation. However, in both wartime and contemporary literature, both the "Bf" and "Me" prefixes are used, and both are considered valid and accurate.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me109

I don't suppose it matters what you use, if both are correct what's the problem.

Also the Me163 can be called the Lippisch 163!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 11, 2006)

Yes as I said in my post both are correct and valid.


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## -JJH- (Jan 11, 2006)

IIRC the Bf designation was usually used on aircraft that was originally designed prior to 1938. After 1938 this was changed to Me. So, originally 109 was designed earlier and thus received the Bf 109 designation. 

Though, this really does not matter what the aircraft is called in what paper, since *officially* in RLM papers the 109 was ALWAYS 8-109, not Bf 109 or Me 109 or mE/109 or even bF-/%#109  . Number 8 was for aircraft (number 9 was for engines, I believe) and 109 was simply the batch number assigned to the aircraft 

-JJ-


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 12, 2006)

-JJH- said:


> IIRC the Bf designation was usually used on aircraft that was originally designed prior to 1938. After 1938 this was changed to Me. So, originally 109 was designed earlier and thus received the Bf 109 designation.
> 
> Though, this really does not matter what the aircraft is called in what paper, since *officially* in RLM papers the 109 was ALWAYS 8-109, not Bf 109 or Me 109 or mE/109 or even bF-/%#109  . Number 8 was for aircraft (number 9 was for engines, I believe) and 109 was simply the batch number assigned to the aircraft
> 
> -JJ-



The date 1938 has nothing to do with the change. As of 1939 there still was not Me designation in use it was still Bf. The change came between the Bf-162 and the Me-163.

As for the numerical designation you are correct.

Aircraft bore the number 8 or 10 such as 8-109. Gliders used the numericals 108 such as the DFS 108-30. Engines were 9 such as 9-100 series being BMW engines or 9-600 serieis being Daimler Benz. BMW later was changed to the 800 series. Engine accessories also used the 9 prefix such as 9-5000 series being manifolds and air ducts. Proppellors and spare parts used the designation 109 such as 109-007 is Daimler Benz (ZTL 5000) This also later changed.


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## -JJH- (Jan 12, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The date 1938 has nothing to do with the change. As of 1939 there still was not Me designation in use it was still Bf. The change came between the Bf-162 and the Me-163.



Really?...Have you ever thought why the change came between Bf 162 and the Me 163?

Check out the design dates: Bf 162 was originally designed prior to summer 1938, some prototypes were manufactured in 1937 or early 1938 (cannot remember more accurately). On the other hand Me 163 was originally designed by Lippisch, BUT the head designer (and the team??) went to the Messerschmitt and completed their project somewhere in 1939, thus Me 163 was born.

So, why the number 162 has different manufacturer designation than 163? 

162 was the last prototype that was designed prior to 1938 and 163 was the first that was designed (and completed) after 1938. we have to assume that something happened during 1938. Well, surprise, Willy Messerschmitt acquired the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke in summer 1938 and named it Messerschmitt!!  

I'd stick with my previous statement, that the year 1938 has something to do with this...

-JJ-


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 12, 2006)

No the actuall date has nothing to do with it. It could have happened in 1944 for all I care, the date has nothing to do with it. The RLM did not go: "Okay its 1938, lets change the system!"

As for the different manufacturer of the 162. The Bf-162 was the Jaguar and that was highly unsuccessful and it the program was cancled. Later they Heinkel Volks Jaeger program was started up and it recieved the number 162. The Bf-162 program was actually designed in response to a 1935 program for a Schnellbomber. Messerschmitt took a Bf-110 and put a glazed nose on it for a bombadier and the prototype flew in 1937.


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## -JJH- (Jan 12, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> No the actuall date has nothing to do with it. It could have happened in 1944 for all I care, the date has nothing to do with it.



Now you just argue that it has nothing to do with the date. Or it has nothing to do with the fact that the factory changed it's name. On what grounds? 




> The RLM did not go: "Okay its 1938, lets change the system!"



Hmm, where it was said that it was RLM that changed the system?

The naming system in germany was standardized all along and called for two letters that designated the manufacturer. Though RLM used only number to denote aircraft, as we agreed previously. If the name of the manufacturer was changed, this obviously affected the designation.

I still argue that after Willy Messerschmitt acquired Bayerische Flugzeugwerke (designated Bf then) in summer 1938, and changed the factory name to Messerschmitt A.G, the designation was changed to Me. And all the prototypes completed after the name change, received Me designation. 




> As for the different manufacturer of the 162.



I never said that 162 had different manufacturer, I said that 162 had different manufacturer DESIGNATION. Of course, I meant Bf 162 all the time, when I was talking about 162 and 163.



> The Bf-162 program was actually designed in response to a 1935 program for a Schnellbomber. Messerschmitt took a Bf-110 and put a glazed nose on it for a bombadier and the prototype flew in 1937.



There you go...Bf 162 was designed before Willy Messerschmitt acquired the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke, hence the designation Bf 162. After the cancellation of Bf 162, the number 162 was assigned for security purposes to Heinkel project and it became the well-known He 162 Volksjäger (I remember reading from somewhere that this aircraft was originally supposed to be He 500, before it was assigned the number 162). Anyway, in my understanding, this Bf 162 project was the last one completed in Bayerische Flugzeugwerke, before the name of the factory was changed.

Once more, take for example the Me 163 Komet, that I used as an example previously...the initial prototype was completed early 1939 and got the designation Me, not Bf. The previous project was Bf 162, that was completed (as you stated) in 1937 and got the designation Bf. 

In my opinion, this is quite simple: after changing name from Bayerische Flugzeugwerke to Messerschmitt A.G, the manufacturer designation was changed from Bf to Me. And this happened in the summer of 1938, because Willy Messerschmitt took over the factory and as the top boss, wanted to change the name.

-JJ-


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 12, 2006)

Um what makes you think that Messerschmitt aquired Bayerische Flugzeugwerk in 1938? It was messerschmitt that designed the Bf-109 in 1935. You are contradicting yourself. Keep telling yourself what you have to, so that you can sleep at night.


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## -JJH- (Jan 12, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Um what makes you think that Messerschmitt acquired Bayerische Flugzeugwerk in 1938? It was messerschmitt that designed the Bf-109 in 1935. You are contradicting yourself. Keep telling yourself what you have to, so that you can sleep at night.



Well, gee, I don't know...how about common knowledge? 

In 1926/27 Willy Messerschmitt joined Bayerische Flugzeugwerke as chief designer/engineer. That's no secret. NOTE, he joined, he did not buy the company, so he was just an employee...thus the name of the company still was Bayerische Flugzeugwerke.

By 1938, the last name of the designer (Willy Messerschmitt) was more known than the company's name 'Bayerische Flugzeugwerke'. Because of this, the chief designer (Willy Messerschmitt) became general director of the company. So one can say that he 'acquired' the company. In addition, the name of the company was changed at that time to....SURPRISE...Messerschmitt AG. prior to 1938, there was no company called Messerschmitt.

About Bf 109...yes, you are right that Messerschmitt designed the aircraft. BUT I never denied that. PLEASE NOTE: it was Willy Messerschmitt who designed Bf 109 but at that time (in 1935) he was still an employee of Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AND the aircraft itself was manufactured by Bayerische Flugzeugwerke.

Look, this is all common knowledge and there are probably 1000 books and 100000 websites, that you can browse through and see that all these changes took place in summer of 1938 and how the designations were altered 

-JJ-


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## loomaluftwaffe (Jan 13, 2006)

sorry all the info i can get here in this country and at my age is wikipedia stuff and books that all say the same things, i even had a book that says nothing good about the 109,
 
thats why i look through this forum, but havent done so thoroughly


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2006)

-JJH- said:


> Look, this is all common knowledge and there are probably 1000 books and 100000 websites, that you can browse through and see that all these changes took place in summer of 1938 and how the designations were altered
> 
> -JJ-



So basically you are saying that I am full of shit huh? Alright I got you.


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