# heinkel he 100 and focke wulf fw 187



## BERETTA 1 (May 16, 2006)

what if HE-100 with drop tanks, if it could use them, and the FW 187 were use in the battle of britain instead of messerschmitt bf 109 and bf 110. what would be the outcome?


----------



## loomaluftwaffe (May 17, 2006)

WELL, the war would have lasted shorter cause all the factories were already tooled up earlier for making bf110s and bf109s,there would be less fighters in the air to fight the spitfires cause the he100s would be grounded due to maintenance problems, and there will still be 109s flying up there, it cant really be helped

I dono about the Fw187


----------



## Twitch (May 17, 2006)

The was absolutely nothing wrong with the 109! All it needed was a a drop tank. The Me 110 flew 4 years before the Fw 187, in 1936 so the 187 could have never been in the BoB.


----------



## BERETTA 1 (May 17, 2006)

thank you for your replys and Twich sorry if i offended you.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 17, 2006)

Im with Twitch on this about the 109 being fine. At the time of the BoB, the 109 was the best fighter in the air.


----------



## BERETTA 1 (May 17, 2006)

sorry about misspelling your name and why would fw 187 not fly in the battle of britian because i thought it first flew in 1937?


----------



## Glider (May 17, 2006)

Personally I would rate the HE100 over the Me109. On that basis the RAF would have had a much harder time of things.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 18, 2006)

I agree with you. The He-100 probably could have developed into a better fighter but by the BoB.


----------



## Twitch (May 18, 2006)

No offense taken Beretta! The He 100 had the porential to be a decent fighter had things unfolded differently. With ongoing research and development it could have filled the role of Luftwaffe day fighter that the Bf 109 did, I agree.

The thing about the BoB is simply that NOBODY had drop tanks yet. As for "what if" let's say the 109 was fitted with them and were able to loiter over Britain much longer. Things would have been different. 109s with extended range would have been like the P-51 escorting the heavies all the way to Berlin and beyond. The 109 without extra fuel was like the P-47 escorting bombers part way and then they got smeared as soon as the P-47s departed. That's what happened when the 109s left the He 111 and Ju 88s due to the ever present low fuel situation.

The Fw 187 1st flew in 1940 by my data. But if, let's say, it would have been chosen for service it COULD have been involved in the BoB. It performance was not demonstrably superior to the 110 except in climb rate that I can see. Fire power was equal and the 110 was actually faster. But the unknown here is maneuverability. I wonder how nimble it was. It was certainly lighter than the Bf 110 so it may have done better against Hurricanes and Spitfires where the 110 didn't. 

Beretta- "what if" scenarios are cool for the most part. The reality of a historical forum like this is that without alternative possibilities to discuss there would be nothing to talk about but repeating the actual historical events as they happened. Hell we can read books for that!


----------



## BERETTA 1 (May 18, 2006)

thank you for your input


----------



## Bullockracing (May 19, 2006)

Well, the 187 and 100 were both beautiful aircraft to look at, that's for sure. In hindsight it's easy to see what would have developed into a better plane. The He 100 was not in the competition with the 109 for the same contract. If it had, and won, the BoB would still have been about the same. As stated before, the 187 was developed significantly after the 110, but would have done a better job (IMHO) in the 110's role, had it been developed to fill it.


----------



## Glider (May 20, 2006)

Small observation re the use of drop tanks in the BOB. As we all know no one used drop tanks in the BOB but the mystery is why the Germans didn't develop them in time for the BOB or even the Battle of France.
Why I say mystery, is because the Germans did use drop tanks in the Spanish Civil War on He 51 fighters, so the concept wasn't new to them and of course they had experience of the benefits.


----------



## Smokey (May 20, 2006)

The FW 187 with DB 601 engines was much faster than the bf 110 and alledgedly almost as maneuvrable as a BF 109! 
The He 100 reached about 390 mph with full combat load, still alot faster than the Bf 109. Some say it was just as maneuvrable as the 109, some that its maneuvrability was inferior to the 109.
Goering seems to have been biased towards Messerschmitt though.
Goering should have put more effort into the He 280 as well.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 20, 2006)

Glider said:


> Small observation re the use of drop tanks in the BOB. As we all know no one used drop tanks in the BOB but the mystery is why the Germans didn't develop them in time for the BOB or even the Battle of France.
> Why I say mystery, is because the Germans did use drop tanks in the Spanish Civil War on He 51 fighters, so the concept wasn't new to them and of course they had experience of the benefits.




Not sure on this, my guess though would be that they did not feel it was needed. Goering really thought that it would a quick won battle and most of the targets were in close range which later we all know was not the case, drop tanks would have been much of an advantage giving the 109s more time to cover the bombers.


----------



## Glider (May 20, 2006)

I sometimes wonder how much better the Germans would have been if they hadn't had Goering in charge and had a Dowding equivalent. 
Its a bit scary as they were pretty good with Goering in charge.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 20, 2006)

Would not have mattered because the rest of the Nazi goons in the the higher ups were just as bad at military commanding as they were as poloticians.


----------



## Glider (May 20, 2006)

I thank the stars that we didn't have to find out the hard way


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 20, 2006)

I could not agree more.


----------



## Bullockracing (May 20, 2006)

I would say that Goering did as much damage to the Luftwaffe as anyone, can anyone think of anyone worse?


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 20, 2006)

Nope, his ideas basically limited the capabilities of the Luftwaffe.


----------



## Bullockracing (May 20, 2006)

Maybe someone could start a thread on what Goering could have done with a historical timeline perspective on what decisions he made and their effects. I know this would open up all sorts of rants...


----------



## Twitch (May 22, 2006)

The choice of aircraft had nothing to do with Göring in a personal sense. The problem was within the RLM- Reichsluftfahrtministerium (Air Ministry). Erhard Milch and initially Ernst Udet before his death were the controling influences in it. 

The Bf in Bf 109 comes from the 1925 merger with WW I, 62-kill ace Ernst Udet’s Bayerische Flugzeugwerke. As of 1932 Messerschmitt was the sole owner thanks to a huge loan from the Air Ministry. Early Messerschmitt aircraft retained the Bf in their designations like the Bf 109 and 110. 

Udet was personal friend of Willy Meserschmitt but a long-standing mutual dislike between Messerschmitt and Milch stemmed from a 1928 incident. Göring liked Messerschmitt perhaps only because he disliked Milch more so and gave Messerschmitt favor.

The real tragic figure in all this was Ernst Heinkel who was virtually made a persona no grata because of his criticism of Htiler and the RLM. He was pals with Udet though. Why did they dislike him so? Because in 1939 he was extolling the virtues of the jet turbine and no one wanted to hear it from Hitler to Milch. Here is the very thing that we all discuss in "what if" scenarios- early jets and producing plenty of them, and Heinkel saw the future and wanted to push their development.

While Herman Göring led the Luftwaffe his intermediary was the RLM that took his want list and attempted to make it reality by interfacing with manufacturers. If a certain type of aircraft was desired Göring would put down the specifications and the Ministry would draw them up as technical requirements and pass them on to aircraft builders. Of course people from the higher echelons of the Luftwaffe contributed what they envisioned as needs too. If the manufacturers thought they could create the said aircraft they presented a proposal to the Ministry with as specific as possible performance data, based on their expertise. The “P” before most numbers stands simply for Projekt. When a project was accepted a company designation number was attached.

As the war unfolded the Air Ministry would put forth specification criteria for aircraft that they in their alleged expertise thought Germany should have.

In the latter stages of the war Albert Speer headed the ministry due to his ability to generally keep all German industry humming. Aircraft requirements were now concentrated on interceptor types. Sometimes balanced designs were compromised or deliberately overlooked for unknown reasons while some planes were built that had little value. Promising types were more often not considered. 

Such is the case if one tries to open the champagne bottle, fussing with the cork, at a minute to midnight on New Year’s Eve.


----------



## Neilster (Jul 12, 2006)

Twitch said:


> The was absolutely nothing wrong with the 109! All it needed was a a drop tank. The Me 110 flew 4 years before the Fw 187, in 1936 so the 187 could have never been in the BoB.



My info says Spring 1937. That's from several sources. My reading on this one is that this was a very worthy aircraft that would have been far superior to the Me 110 as a long range escort if built in that role and not as a destroyer. Apparently the pilots that flew them preferred them to Me 110s but that wasn't politically correct.

Also, I was under the impression that 109s had drop tanks towards the end of the BoB.

FW 187 and developed He 112 anyone? Alternative history I know.

Cheers, Neilster


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 12, 2006)

109s first used frop tanks as well in the Spanish Civil War. Ofcourse this was just for test purposes as the whole war was for the Luftwaffe.


----------



## V-1710 (Jul 13, 2006)

As for the He-100, wasn't one of the reasons it was not selected for production was the concern that it would have slowed He-111 production? Also, didn't the He-100 have issues with it's surface evaporation radiators? The He-100 was certainly a pretty airplane, though.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 13, 2006)

I think you are right, but given time they could have corrected the problem.


----------



## Twitch (Jul 13, 2006)

Huh? The Bf 110V1 flew on May 12, 1936. Tye V2 and V3 flew on October 24 and December 24 respectively. The V2 was sent to Reichlin for trials on January 14, 1937. That must be what you're thinking of Neilster


----------



## Neilster (Jul 14, 2006)

Twitch said:


> Huh? The Bf 110V1 flew on May 12, 1936. Tye V2 and V3 flew on October 24 and December 24 respectively. The V2 was sent to Reichlin for trials on January 14, 1937. That must be what you're thinking of Neilster



No. I know the difference between the FW 187 and the Bf 110.

This is from Focke-Wulf 187 archive file

_The first prototype made its first flight in late spring 1937 with Hans Sander as its pilot. 560km/h were expected with the 1000PS DB 600, but 523km/h were already reached with the 700 PS Jumo 210 in the unarmed V-1 prototype. While testing, several details changed: new props, twin wheels (as an experiment), and the rudders got a shortened profile.
Meanwhile, the guys in the RLM got crazy; they wanted this plane as a destroyer (one definition of a destroyer: two crew members, heavy armament, two engines). Of course, everybody can see that there is no place for defensive weapons, and on long range escort missions, the bombers navigate and the escorts only have to stay in relative position, but they wanted a second crew member. Although this reduced the range and the dogfight abilities.
So Focke-Wulf designed the third prototype Fw 187V-3 with two crew members, new engine covering, different fuselage structure and two 20mm MG FF. It flew first in spring 1938, and two similar planes followed. The first prototype was destroyed on 14.05.1938 (the pilot paul bauer flew too risky and stalled during a loop), but the program continued, and Focke-Wulf got two 1.000PS DB 600 engines for the sixth prototype (Fw 187V6), which reached a speed of 636km/h (60-120km/h more than the fighters of the Battle of Britain reached in 1940 with 1050 to 1330PS engines). Next, three Fw 187A-0 (based upon the third prototype) pre-serial planes were built and used since summer 1940 as a defense for the Focke-Wulf facilities at Bremen, later in the Winter inofficially at the 13. destroyer squadron in Norway. The pilots in Norway were enthusiastic about its potential and demanded quantity production, but instead they were ordered to give the planes back to Focke-Wulf because they were only in inofficial use. Some Fw187 were also used in the aerial shooting school in Vaerlose, Denmark._

Wikipedia puts the first flight as Spring 1937 as well. Then there's this...

_The first prototype Fw 187 V1 (D-AANA) was ready to fly in spring 1937, and was powered by two 680 hp Jumo 210Da engines. Even with these low powered engines the aircraft attained 326 mph (525 kmh) at 13,123 ft (4,000 m), a full 50 mph (80 kmh) faster than the latest Bf-109B-2 production single-seat fighters.

The aircraft was lost on May 14, 1938 during a low level high speed pass at the test facility in Bremen. The pilot was believed to have pulled up to sharply at the end of the pass, the aircraft stalled, and spun into the ground.

The second prototype Fw 187 V2 was flying by summer of 1937 and it was destined to be the last single seat version. Earnst Udet had replaced von Richtofen by this point in time, and while Udet was a visionary in some respects, he was a total conventionalist when it came to fighter planes. Two engined fighter planes were less maneuverable than single seat fighters so all further development of the Fw 187 was to be as a "Zerstorer" (destroyer) having two or three seats and heavy armaments for attack and defence. _

...from Focke-Wulf Fw 187 Falke "Falcon" and this...

_The twin-engined Focke-Wulf Fw 187 was a contemporary of the Messerschmitt Bf 110, however production was limited to a handful of prototypes. So far the story of this largely forgotten fighter has been shrouded in darkness. Developed by Professor Kurt Tank, the Fw 187 first flew in the summer of 1937._

...from Focke-Wulf Fw 187 by Dietmar Hermann and Peter Petrick - Schifferbooks.com

I don't have any of my books with me but I can check in them too.

Cheers, Neilster


----------



## Twitch (Jul 16, 2006)

The 110 and 187 are apple and oranges really to me. While the 110 first flew in 1936 it was it was accepted in Luftwaffe service in 1937 with quantity deliveries in spring 1938.

I was looking at the fact that the first 3 actual non-prototype Fw 187A-0s didn't fly till 1940. Now if we look at a "what if" where the RLM gods had favored the Fw 187 it is entitrely possible that the ship "coulda" been in service at the same time of the Bf 110.

It was the RLM that had the "ho-hum" attitude on the Fw 187. The 3 A-0s that the Luftwaffe were "loaned" were liked by pilots. My feeling is that there was only room for ONE aircraft for the role these planes were conceived and Willy Messerschmitt was the fair-haired boy of the RLM and since the 110 was over a year ahead in its maiden flight and had a huge jump on the 187 they gave Willy the nod.

Sometimes the politics of the 3rd Reich's bizarre relationships of personalities was as interesting as the planes!


----------

