# Four Messerschmitt Bf 109Gs FOR SALE.



## Snautzer01 (Jul 9, 2014)

On Torch: Four Messerschmitt Bf 109Gs FOR SALE. - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Link to sale : http://www.platinumfighters.com/#!ha-1112-m1l/c12zi


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## GregP (Jul 9, 2014)

There is an entire hangfar full of Messerschmitts in Texas that is waiting for the price to go out of sight, and then it will be auctioned.

These Hispanos aren't all that valuable ... they may go for $250K or less, but not much more. There has been one for sale for YEARS for $350k with no interest.

When the real deal shows up, it might be different .. except there IS one real Bf 109E for sale up in Niagra Falls, Canada. No takers. Makes me wonder ...


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## m37b1 (Jul 9, 2014)

What would it take to convert one back to the original inverted DB config?


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## GregP (Jul 9, 2014)

All it takes is an engine mount, a Daimler-Benz, a propeller, a cowling, and a spinner. The DB-powered Bf 109 flying in Germany is, in fact, a converted Hispano.

I believe the scarce item is the Daimler-Benz engine, not the Hispano airframes.

If Daimler-Benz would make a run of DB 605's, I'd bet they could sell all they made easily ... assuming the price wasn't completely out of the ballpark. Considering the price of a Mercedes, that might be asking a lot.

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## gumbyk (Jul 9, 2014)

GregP said:


> All it takes is an engine mount, a Daimler-Benz, a propeller, a cowling, and a spinner. The DB-powered Bf 109 flying in Germany is, in fact, a converted Hispano.



Piece of cake, then! 

I guess the price depends on what work is required to bring them back to airworthy. (Let's not start _that_ debate again!) If, as the ad states, they were flying when placed into storage, then they are worth quite a bit more than something that needs significant work to bring back to life.


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## GregP (Jul 9, 2014)

As a guy who has been and is currently working on an Hispano Ha.1112, I can tell you that any plane stored for many years without flying will take a large amount of work to make airworthy again. Parts are quite scarce and there is no guarantee an engine neglected for 20+ years is even overhaulable. It PROBABLY is unless they let water get into the inside, in which case it is probably not.

It is definitely something that can be done, but it isn't for those without deep pockets or at minimum have sheet metal fabrication and machine tools available. If anyone is interested, I can post some pics of our Ha.1112 in a few days. It's not something for the casual weekend tinkerer to tackle.

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## gumbyk (Jul 9, 2014)

I've been involved in enough restorations to know exactly what you mean. But there is still a world of difference in the work involved with returning an aircraft that has been properly stored, and one that has been damaged and pushed into the back of a hangar.


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## GregP (Jul 9, 2014)

You said it better than I did, and you are spot on correct.


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 9, 2014)

I think I would prefer the Fw 190 and save a few $$.


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## gumbyk (Jul 9, 2014)

vikingBerserker said:


> I think I would prefer the Fw 190 and save a few $$.



That is a static restoration.

Those 109's are 90% of the way to flying. Unfortunately, the last 10% of the work takes 90% of the time and money...


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## GregP (Jul 9, 2014)

Hence the old saying about building a kit aircraft, "When you are 90% finished, there's only 50% more work to do."


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## cimmex (Jul 10, 2014)

How to build a Fw190…
(Hope this works) 
 
cimmex


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## GregP (Jul 10, 2014)

Pretty good, Cimmex! Thanks.


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## Snautzer01 (Jul 10, 2014)

@GregP i would love to see any pic of the restoration!! 

These are the HA-1112 credited to the collection. 

HA-1112-M1L c/n unkn C.4K-111, ex-471 Sq "471-15", movie: Battle of Britain, Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring, Texas.
HA-1112-M1L c/n 166 C.4K-106 (N90607), movie: Battle of Britain "Yellow 8", Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring Texas.
HA-1112-M1L c/n 187 C.4K-99 (N90604), ex-7 Sq "7-77", movie: Battle of Britain "Yellow 5", Yellow 5 , Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring Texas.
HA-1112-M1L c/n 190 C.4K-126 (N90603), movie: Battle of Britain "Red 9", Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring, Texas.
HA-1112-M1L c/n 220 C.4K-152 (N4109G), movie: Battle of Britain "White 5", Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring, Texas.
HA-1112-M1L c/n 223 C.4K-154, movie: Battle of Britain, Edwards Collection, Wilson Edwards, Big Spring, Texas.


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## GregP (Jul 10, 2014)

I'll get some pics in the next few days.


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## Elmas (Jul 10, 2014)

gumbyk said:


> I've been involved in enough restorations to know exactly what you mean. But there is still a world of difference in the work involved with returning an aircraft that has been properly stored, and one that has been damaged and pushed into the back of a hangar.



Seeing the photos and the dust on that poor planes I have a propensity for the latter.....


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## GregP (Jul 10, 2014)

I just went and looked at the photos. Yep, they're going to be interesting to get flying again. The Ha-1112 has a couple of fuel bladders in the outer wing panels that we (Planes of Fame) removed and I can see the rust on the steel wing attach points. My bet is all new fuel bladders, I'd bet they have to replace the bearings in the stabilator trim and flap wheels and do some general repairs. The engines are probably Merlin 224's or 228's that will need a thorough overhaul along with the props. Ours used to belong to Bubba Beal and we'll use a Merlin 224.

There is also some wood to look at. The slats have wood backing and the radiator housing has wood in it, too. It's not a lot, but the radiator part is tough when it comes to access. Some of the cowling is fiberglass and might need some fiberglass attention.

At the museum, we took advantage of the opportunity to move the hydraulic pump from the engine compartment to behind the pilot's seat. That way the chance of fire from hydraulic oil near the engine is eliminated. We are currently in the process of making a new instrument panel.

Metric parts for these birds are scarce and you can wind up with a hybrid of mixed hardware. We had a beast of time finding landing gear uplocks when the originals came up missing. If we HAD some, we could have made some, but making them from the drawings that are available would be tough. New landing gear attach brackets and a new engine mount were found easily, though I have no idea if the source we used has any more of them.

One hint for potential buyer is that the wing attach bolts are hand fitted and tapered, so each bolt has to go back into the tapered hole it was fitted to, they aren't interchangeable. So you'll either have to re-fit them by hand or get the originals, and I mean ALL of them.

Nothing will help the fact that this airframe doesn't like to be operated from pavement, though. It's a grass-loving fool and you'll thank yourself if you can operate it from grass, at least for some of it's life. But, if you attend airshows with your new Hispano, sooner or later you'll have to deal with it's pavement manners. If you're going to look at one seriously, read the logbook and check out the number of groundloops it has had repaired. Most will have had at least a couple of them. It usually folds one gear into the well and the other past the stop and under the plane. The wing root area will plainly show the repairs if the wings are off the bird.

As I said earlier, I'll get some pics in the next few days.


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## stona (Jul 10, 2014)

Elmas said:


> Seeing the photos and the dust on that poor planes I have a propensity for the latter.....



These aircraft are near pristine compared with some of the restorations undertaken on recovered WW2 aircraft. Yes, it will be an expensive business for a prospective new owner, but as someone said above, at least 90% of the work won't need doing.

Fancy making this:







Into this?






Those Connie Edwards warbirds are new by comparison.

Cheers

Steve


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## GregP (Jul 10, 2014)

Great before and after there, Steve!

Was that for fun, or did taht wing actually go into that Spirfire? Just curious. If it did wind up there, that is even more amazing.


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## stona (Jul 10, 2014)

The remains were dragged out of the sea off the French coast. There was more of it than in the first photograph, but it was all in a similarly sorry state. It really did form the basis of the restoration and I know an attempt was made to use as much of the original as possible in the restoration, but at the end of the day this was a 'Frame ?' (can't remember which frame a Spitfire data plate is attached to) restoration. There is very little of the original P9374 airframe flying today. I'm not sure anyone has confessed how much the restoration cost but I'll bet it was millions of pounds.
Cheers
Steve


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## Elmas (Jul 10, 2014)

By a technical point of view nothing (almost) is impossible....
It just depends from the thickness of the owner's wallet.....

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## stona (Jul 10, 2014)

I just found this, which saves me a lot of typing.

Spitfire back in the air after 71 years - Telegraph

Steve


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## grampi (Jul 10, 2014)

I wouldn't give two wooden nickels for the Spanish built versions...now the German built ones, that's a different story...


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## gumbyk (Jul 10, 2014)

stona said:


> These aircraft are near pristine compared with some of the restorations undertaken on recovered WW2 aircraft. Yes, it will be an expensive business for a prospective new owner, but as someone said above, at least 90% of the work won't need doing.



Unfortunately, even though these are easy restorations in comparison to some I've seen (we've got a P-40 project here in worse condition than the Spitfire pic) there is still a lot of work to go in to bringing them back to airworthiness.

Greg has just listed a number of issues, and that list is going to get longer. The main problem with something like this is that someone buys it, and doesn't realise that there is still a full strip and rebuild basically needed.


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## stona (Jul 10, 2014)

gumbyk said:


> The main problem with something like this is that someone buys it, and doesn't realise that there is still a full strip and rebuild basically needed.



Then they'd be mad to buy one without either the expertise or taking advice from someone with that expertise. The sort of person who can afford something like this is unlikely to be stupid.
Cheers
Steve


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## gumbyk (Jul 10, 2014)

stona said:


> Then they'd be mad to buy one without either the expertise or taking advice from someone with that expertise. The sort of person who can afford something like this is unlikely to be stupid.
> Cheers
> Steve



Really?


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## nuuumannn (Jul 10, 2014)

> but at the end of the day this was a 'Frame ?' (can't remember which frame a Spitfire data plate is attached to) restoration. There is very little of the original P9374 airframe flying today.



Frame Five. The firewall is Frame 5 and the tailplane attachment frame at the far end is Frame 19. Yep, you got that right. The aircraft would have been built from scratch using original Spitfire parts as templates. The dataplate is probably the only original component from the wreck left on it. Aircraft Restorations have built enough Spitfires to build them from scratch without using templates from that original wreck, but it helps if a wee bit of provenance, such as the data plate from the original wreck survives. This is essentially the basis of a frame five restoration; it doesn't matter what bits you have or how much is actually from the original wreckage, but as long as the dataplate survives and says its a mark whatever, then it's original!

Despite the externally complete condition of those Buchons, anyone seriously contemplating restoring them would carry out a thorough strip down and rebuild, no question about it. Because there is substantial remains doesn't make the job any easier or less maintenance intensive than, say 'rebuilding' that Spit.


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## GregP (Jul 10, 2014)

I've spoken with a number of wealthy collectors, some with 30+ WWII aircraft. All but one said the first plane that was a total rebuild was WAY more expensive than he had at first figured, but the rest were in line with what he expected after having gone through the first one. One of them has a German-built Bf 109E on display at the Planes of Fame that was recovered from the botton of a Russian lake. He is deciding whether or not to restore this one or use it as template to build one from scratch. We don't know the answer yet. He may elect to just leave it static in the end ... it's all up to the owner. Right now it looks just like it did when it first dried out after being lifted from the lake except we have some tie-down straps holding the landing gear down and locked.

The real answer on expense depends largely on the goals of the restoration attempted. If you want to have a good-looking reliable flying aircraft, it is one thing. If you want every piece to be as it came from the factory, including adding period-correct cotton insulation over modern wires, putting on factory-correct wire lables, and having a complete WWII functioning instument panel, it is another thing entirely.

Paul Allen's collection is so authentic I believe they are in better shape than when they rolled off the assembly line. I'd bet HE knows what they cost to restore since his museum doesn't do restoration, he let's the experts do the restoration and he then shows it, flies it when he wants to allow it, and then they maintain the aircraft in that just-restored condition. They are real gems, but I don't know of any other warbirds in the U.S.A. quite so period-authentic and I don't know any other owners who WANT them quite so period authentic. Most peoploe who spring for a modern update aren't dead set on having it look like WWII hardware.

I've seen a really nice 2-seat Hawker Hunter with a complete modern all-glass cockpit. It was impressive but a former Hunter pilot who hasn't flown a Hunter since his service days might not even be able to start the engine much less operate the displays.


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## nuuumannn (Jul 10, 2014)

> The real answer on expense depends largely on the goals of the restoration attempted. If you want to have a good-looking reliable flying aircraft, it is one thing. If you want every piece to be as it came from the factory, including adding period-correct cotton insulation over modern wires, putting on factory-correct wire lables, and having a complete WWII functioning instument panel, it is another thing entirely.



Pretty much, Greg. Owners can make the darndest requests! The Buchons would be an interesting one because of the posibilities available. Since they are based on a Bf 109, do you restore them as a Buchon, but in Luftwaffe colours, or do you go the whole hog and convert to a German powerplant? Or do you go authentic and restore back to thecondition they were in in the Spanish Air Force? I don't think any flying Buchons are in this condition, most owners choose the Luftwaffe markings option. These aircraft, however have another provenance to consider. Their Battle of Britain period is now a part of history and warbird folklore, which makes it an historical option, so you can put them into their Battle of Britain configuration as they were modified for the film. One of the Buchons flying in the UK, that Aircraft restorations rebuilt if I can recall, has been restored as it was during the making of the movie and it look pretty neat. Not genuine Luftwaffe colours, but certainly historic and representative of the provenance of the aircraft.


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## GregP (Jul 10, 2014)

Well said and an interesting option.

As for staying with the "movie scheme," we still operate our Vultee that was converted into a fake Aichi "Val" for the movie "Tora, Tora, Tora" in the movie configuration. It sill draws fans on "Japanese day" when we fly it, many times with the real Zero.


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## stona (Jul 11, 2014)

nuuumannn said:


> Frame Five. Despite the externally complete condition of those Buchons, anyone seriously contemplating restoring them would carry out a thorough strip down and rebuild, no question about it. Because there is substantial remains doesn't make the job any easier or less maintenance intensive than, say 'rebuilding' that Spit.



Thanks, a frame 5 restoration then.

What someone returning those Buchons to flying condition would not have to do is fabricate 99% of the aeroplane. I agree of course that it would have to be stripped and rebuilt, but, for the most part, not re-manufactured.

Bolting a Daimler-Benz engine on the front would be a vast improvement for me. I never liked the look of the Buchon with an upside down engine. Whenever I watch the BoB film it grates with me more than the wobbly R/C Ju 87s 

Cheers

Steve


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## Elmas (Jul 11, 2014)

As it was said at the end of XIX century, when rich people was watching from the terrace of the Yacht Club their own boats racing in the Solent with professional crews:







_“If you ask how much a boat will cost you, you simply can’t afford her....”_


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