# IR seeking missile vs. piston engine?



## Piper106 (Jan 28, 2009)

I was wondering if the sensors in shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles (like the US Stinger missile) is sensitive enough to pick up and home into the heat signiture from a high powered piston type aircraft engine?

My guess is that the amount of heat coming from the exhaust of a R-2600 / R-2800 / ASh-82 / Centaurus might be too small and too difuse for the IR sensors of most modern missiles. 

Anyone has any definitive data on this subject??

Piper106


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## Matt308 (Jan 29, 2009)

Definitive? You want definitive data on the efficacy of a classified military system?

How about a "yes" instead.


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## SoD Stitch (Jan 29, 2009)

I don't know about the Stinger, but I do know that the seeker head on an AIM-9M Sidewinder is sensitive enough to home in on the heat from skin friction on an aircraft, so I'm guessing it's sensitive enough to pick up the heat from the exhaust stacks, or maybe even a hot part of the cowling.


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## Glider (Jan 29, 2009)

Stingers were more than effective against the Pucara in the Falklands and the SA7 hit a number of helicopters in the desert so I don't see any reason to doubt their effectiveness against piston engines.

The very early missiles AIM 9B and Atoll were dissapointing in combat but I don't know if they would have been better or worse against a piston engine.


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## BombTaxi (Jan 31, 2009)

The Pucara is turboprop-powered though, so I would have thought that the exhaust would be hotter than that from a piston-engined a/c. On the other hand, from what Stitch has said, a current-model missile shouldn't have a problem.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 31, 2009)

Typical normal turbine EGT - between 400 and 650c.

Big recip EGT (ie. R2800) between 400 and 690c


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## BombTaxi (Jan 31, 2009)

I stand corrected then 8) Thanks!


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 31, 2009)

The key is whether the size of the IR source (a recip exhaust stack or a turbine exhaust, and on the PT-6 for example its not that big) will entice the missile - I think it would with no problem in either case.


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## Blaydon (Feb 5, 2009)

They tend to detect temperature differences so a 500 degree spot against a 10 degree background. Most modern IR missiles could pick up a car engine at a reasonable range and home on it.


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## SoD Stitch (Feb 5, 2009)

I used to have a friend who was an F-14 powerplant mechanic on the _Connie_, and he said the seeker head on the AIM-9M would actually track him as he walked in front of the a/c.


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## Blaydon (Feb 5, 2009)

Certainly there is a roumour that an AIM 9 was fired on the ground and tracked and hit a vehicle on the other side of the airfield certainly whilst under test the Guidance section gets confused if someone walks past the front.


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## Bill G. (Feb 5, 2009)

I can't find the reference, but I remember in Vietnam, a heat seeking Sidewinder missile was once used to destroy a truck. The crew was surprised that they could get a lock. They figured the truck must have had a leaking exhaust valve.

So I would have to say it is possible for a heat seeking missile to lock onto a piston engined airplane.

Bill G.


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## tomo pauk (Feb 5, 2009)

Bofors (or was it FFV?) has made the Stryx PGM for 120mm mortar; it used the IR signature of a tank to home on to. 

IMO any decent IR guided missile could be locked to a warm object, eg. piston engined plane.


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## timshatz (Feb 5, 2009)

Bill G. said:


> I can't find the reference, but I remember in Vietnam, a heat seeking Sidewinder missile was once used to destroy a truck. The crew was surprised that they could get a lock. They figured the truck must have had a leaking exhaust valve.
> 
> So I would have to say it is possible for a heat seeking missile to lock onto a piston engined airplane.
> 
> Bill G.



Read that one too. I think it may've Randy Cunningham who did it. Definitely an F4 anyway.


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## Valo300 (Feb 10, 2009)

Piper106 said:


> I was wondering if the sensors in shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles (like the US Stinger missile) is sensitive enough to pick up and home into the heat signiture from a high powered piston type aircraft engine?
> 
> My guess is that the amount of heat coming from the exhaust of a R-2600 / R-2800 / ASh-82 / Centaurus might be too small and too difuse for the IR sensors of most modern missiles.
> 
> ...


The latest all-aspect IIR AAM's don't need any engine heat at all to work, they track the IR image of the aircraft itself. Flares probably wouldn't work on them either.



timshatz said:


> Read that one too. I think it may've Randy Cunningham who did it. Definitely an F4 anyway.


Haha man that's one expensive kill!


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## Clay_Allison (Feb 16, 2009)

What about terrorist-owned Iglas?


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## Blaydon (Feb 17, 2009)

Seems to me the terrorists seem to get supplied with pretty up to date equipment but even older types will still home on an engine signature but may be more prone to decoys.


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