# Battle of Britain 2010 Group build....



## Lucky13 (Feb 27, 2009)

Right.....

Thought that I'd start this thread to learn more about Battle of Britain, that was fought in the skies over UK between 10 July 1940 and 31 October 1940. This is an air battle that I sadly don't know much about , but now I have over a year to learn before the GB starts....8) 
Am curious as to why Luftflotte 5 took part in the fighting all the way from Norway, especiallly II. Gruppe from JG77, flying Bf 109's!  
What was the idea with that, thinking that they couldn't have been able to get much time over UK for fighter vs fighter action....right?


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## Airframes (Feb 27, 2009)

Not sure about the fighter element from Norway or Denmark Jan, but the bombers sure 'had a go'.
The targets were, supposedly, the industrial key areas around Newcastle upon Tyne, Gateshead, Middlesborough and Sunderland,with some RAF airfields and other industrial towns also targeted. Raids were also directed fiurther north of course, around the naval bases on the Firth of Forth.
Many accounts of the Battle gloss over these raids, giving the impression, as the BoB movie did to an extent, that the Luftwaffe launched one big raid, unescorted, got decimated, and abandoned the plan. Whilst some, if not most of the daylight raids were badly hit by fighters, a considerable amount of damage was inflicted. A major, and important target on the banks of the River Tyne was the Vickers works, which was about two miles long, plus, near by, there were storage warehouses holding valuable supplies (eg sugar) and other industry, and this was attacked on a number of occassions, particularly when the raids swithched to night bombing.
I'm not aware of any Bf109's providing escort for the bombers to the north east, although I have heard of Bf110's being used, albeit in vague accounts.


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## rochie (Feb 27, 2009)

i'm sure i've read somewhere that the first luftwaffe aircraft to crashland on english soil happened in the north east not that far from where i live and there's a bridge in stockton that still bears the scars from shrapanel from a german bomb


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## fly boy (Feb 27, 2009)

i don't have anything but if i do i will make it and post it


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## 109ROAMING (Feb 28, 2009)

^


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## Heinz (Feb 28, 2009)

Well thats conclusive.

The lack of 109s to the North East was due to the lesser fighter threat yes?


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## Lucky13 (Feb 28, 2009)

Makes you wonder, it's, what....400-450 miles (640-720 Km) between Stavanger and the British east coast, couldn't have more fuel left than for 10-15 minutes of combat....if you flew with JG77.

Btw, didn't the '109F first see combat during BoB?


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## Airframes (Feb 28, 2009)

There was plenty of fighter activity in the north during the BoB. Not as much as 11 Group in the south of course, but enough Squadrons at Turnhouse, Acklington, Usworth, Digby etc, to repel any raids, or at least do serious damage. Apart from the 'active' Squadrons, there were those sent north for a 'rest' period, where the relative quiet would provide time for a 'breather'.
The distance to and from the north of England and Scotland, for units based in Norway and Denmark, wasn't really suited to operations by '109's. Bearing in mind the fuel used by throttle 'jockeying' to maintain station on the bombers, it would have been a very close run exerise. However, Scandinavian-based '110's were operational, and IIRC, the '110 'Dachelbuchs' were operational out of Aalborg, northern Denmark as well.
Although the early Bf109F was around, and I believe Molders used one, they weren't really in the 'official' Battle. I'd need to check, but I think they began operations over Britain, in limited numbers, in November 1940. At this time, there were still problems with the wing stresses, with some aircraft lost, with their pilots, due to failure of the wing at the root.


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## Lucky13 (Feb 28, 2009)

Just wondering about the II./JG77 old chap, since they're mentioned in a OOB in August 1940 for the Battle of Britain....


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## Njaco (Feb 28, 2009)

Jan, I believe Luftflotte 5 was involved because it was thought by Goering that all the Spits and Hurricanes were in the south, thereby leaving the north undefended. Bad mistake.

I was going to start a "This Day in the BoB" thread as soon as the "Europe" thread is done. Might start it sooner.


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## lesofprimus (Feb 28, 2009)

Im gonna have to think long and hard about this Build and what I want to do.... I may break precednence and build a Spitfire, but seeing how the Commonwealth Build may come before the BoB, I may do a Spit for that and a 109 for the BoB....

Either way, I want to see how Jan does with his stiped camo job on his E-3 before I get much further....


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## Lucky13 (Feb 28, 2009)

I can tell to you that Brother, that I'm gagging to start building it! But, I need an E-3 first... It's time as well, I think, to find other potential "13's" for this GB.  Who else was involved of the JG's?
Have already decided that I want to build a No. 74 Squadron Spitfire for this.


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## muller (Feb 28, 2009)

Jan, I'd highly recommend the book, 'Fighter: The True Story of the Battle of Britain' by Len Deighton, its nearly a day by day account of the battle. What was happening in the air, on the ground and behind the scenes, its a great read.


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## Airframes (Feb 28, 2009)

I can provide you with a list of all the JG's that participated in the BoB,their bases and transfers Jan, if you would like it, or like it posted.
II/JG77 had supported the invasion of Norway and Denmark in April 1940, and maintained a defensive role in that region until December, when they moved to north west France. They did not take an active part in the BoB.
No. 74 Sqn., RAF, took part in the first phase of the Battle, being based at Rochford, Kent between June 6 and June 25, when they moved to Hornchurch. The Squadron was withdrawn for rest, moving to Wittering, Cambs, on 14 August, then to Kirton-in-Lindsey on 21 August, and Coltishall on 9 September, moving south again in mid-October.


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## Njaco (Feb 28, 2009)

This will give you an idea where the Jagdgeschwaders were located.

Jagdwaffe by Eric Mombeek.


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## 520516MA (Mar 1, 2009)

oh my god , If haven't rader at that time .It was hard to say who will win the battle .


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## Lucky13 (Mar 1, 2009)

Great stuff Chris!


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## Njaco (Mar 1, 2009)

and that is just the fighter units. Don't forget the Kampfgeschwaders, Lehrgeschwaders and Zerstroergeschwaders!


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## Lucky13 (Mar 1, 2009)

...and Stukas...!

Edit:

Lehrgeschwader 2's IV.(St), 
Sturzkampfgeschwader 1's III. Gruppe,
Sturzkampfgeschwader 2's III. Gruppe, 
Sturzkampfgeschwader 51,
Sturzkampfgeschwader 3's I.


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## tango35 (Mar 1, 2009)

With the new Eduard Me 109 releases E-1,E-3,E-4, the classic re-releases from Revell (Spitfire ) and the new Ju 88 it will be an interestin GB.

greets

Thomas

ps: The Ju 88 is in my stash and the new Eduard is ordered


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## Njaco (Mar 1, 2009)

and lets not forget Epr. 210!

I'm not sure the Ju 88 was in the BoB unless in the very later stages and as an early Mk of the machine.


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## Lucky13 (Mar 1, 2009)

II./KG76 from Creil: Ju 88
III./KG4 from Amsterdam/Schiphol: Ju 88
I., II., III./LG1 from Orleans/Bricy and Chateaudun: Ju 88
Stabschwarme/KG40 from Brest-Guipavas: Ju 88
Kampfgruppe 806 from Nantes: Ju 88
Aufklärungsgruppe 121, 3. Staffel from North-West France: Ju 88
I., II., III.,/KG51 from Melun, Orly and Étampes: Ju 88
I., II.,/KG54 from Evreux and St. Andre-de-L’Eure: Ju 88
Aufklärungsgruppe 121, 3. Staffel from Villacoublay: Ju 88
Aufklärungsgruppe 123, 2. Staffel from Paris: Ju 88
Stabschwarme, I., II., III./KG30 Aalborg and Aalborg-West: Ju 88
Aufklärungsgruppe 120, 1. Staffel from Stavanger: Ju 88
Aufklärungsgruppe 121, 1. Staffel from Stavanger Ju 88
Aufklärungsgruppe Ob.d.L, 1. Staffel, Autonomous, no fixed location: Ju 88

By August 1940 A-1s and A-5s were reaching operational units, just as the battle was intensifying. The Battle of Britain proved very costly. Its faster speed did not prevent Ju 88 losses exceeding those of its Dornier Do 17 and Heinkel He 111 stablemates, despite being deployed in smaller numbers than either. Ju 88 losses over Britain in 1940 amounted to 313 machines between July-October 1940. Do 17 and He 111 losses for the same period amounted to 132 and 252 machines destroyed respectively. A series of field kits were made to make it less vulnerable, including the replacement of the rear machine gun by a twin barreled machine gun, and additional cockpit armour.

It was during the closing days of the Battle of Britain that the flagship Ju 88 A-4 went into service. Although slower yet than the A-1, nearly all of the troubles of the A-1 were gone, and finally the Ju 88 matured into a superb warplane. The A-4 actually saw additional improvements including more powerful engines, but, unlike other aircraft in the Luftwaffe, did not see a model code change. The Ju 88 C series also benefited from the A-4 changes, and when the Luftwaffe finally did decide on a new heavy fighter, the Ju 88 C was a powerful, refined aircraft.


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## Airframes (Mar 1, 2009)

Nice JG map Chris, although, of course, there were changes due to movements of some JG's, and some changing Luftflotte.
Yep, the JU88 certainly did some damage, even though they suffered heavy losses. A heavy raid on Portsmouth did cause us some problems, and at least one by '88's on the north east did massive damage. Somewhere, I've got some shots of '88's at low level over England during the BoB. No doubt, when the build comes around, I'll be posting a number of hopefully helpful bits and pieces, as this Batlle has long been one of my 'pets'.


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## Lucky13 (Mar 1, 2009)

SCRAMBLE...! *rings the bell!*


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## Njaco (Mar 1, 2009)

taka taka taka....

Terry, I've been wanting to do a "THis Day in..." for the BoB. I was gonna start on 10 July - need to contribute something after the Europe thread is done!


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## Airframes (Mar 1, 2009)

Looking forward to that Chris! If you need any pics in addition to what you've probably got, let me know, as I've a fair few, in a multitude of books, covering BoB subjects from both sides.


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## Njaco (Mar 1, 2009)

I have a few myself.

Heres another pic that has RAF and Luftwaffe.

from "Hitler's Luftwaffe" by Tony Wood / Bill Gunston


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## Lucky13 (Mar 2, 2009)

I like how it says "LUFTFLOTTE FIVE (from Norway and Sweden)".... Didn't know that we were occupied..!   
Btw, I take it that those numbers are squadron numbers, right?


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## Airframes (Mar 2, 2009)

Hmm. Not a bad disposition map Chris, but it must be tied to a certain date, for, as Jan pointed out, the RAF Squadron numbers are included. As you know, the various Squadrons were not neccessarily based permanently at a particular airfileld, rotating during various periods of the Battle although some did have a home base for an extended period. 
The map is also missing some key airfields but, to be fair, the authors might just have included those shown for clarity.
The fact that it shows LF5 operating from Sweden also brings into question its reliability!
If you think you can use them, I have some clear maps, both in colour, and black white line-drawing form, showing the correct dispositions, during various phases, and also some oblique 'aerial photo' style ones showing key engagements. The latter are particulary good, as they have various coloured 'tracks' of the flight paths of the Luftwaffe and RAF units involved, and the movement as each engagement progressed, showing the units, times etc.
Just shout when/if you want them mate!


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## Lucky13 (Mar 2, 2009)

Time to get busy then sport! 8)


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## Njaco (Mar 2, 2009)

Thanks Terry. I agree. I think its just a quick representation. Maybe I'll start that BoB thread and just call it "Day by Day". Maybe you can add stuff as well. Between the two of us, should get a decent overview.


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## Lucky13 (Mar 2, 2009)

So, these would be good to use for this GB then:

Ju 88A-1, 4 and 5. Would the -C version do as well?
He 111H-1, -5, -6 and -8?
Dornier Do 17Z.
Bf 109E-1, -3, -4, -7 and possible early F's.
Spitfire Mk I and II.
Hurricane MkI (Revised) and MkIIA.
Wellington Mk.III.
Bf 110C, D. 

Just checking for those that I can find in 1/48....


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## Airframes (Mar 2, 2009)

JU88A1 and A5 yes, doubtful about the A4 though, not C.
Dornier 17Z yes, and 17P, also, I think 215.
Hurricane Mk1 yes, MkIIA I don't think made it in time, I'd have to check.
Also JU87B, Gladiator, Beaufghter 1, Blenheim Mk1 and MkIV(F).
Don't know of 1/48th scale kits for Defiant, and I wouldn't include the Bf109F.
Also, believe it or not, Tiger Moth, jury rigged for bombing beaches if Germans landed! (Available from SMER) Also, for ASR, Walrus, also from SMER, and Lysander, from ?? Dang! Forgotten who!!


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## Lucky13 (Mar 2, 2009)

Thank you frightfully old boy...! According to Wiki (I know) it was during the closing days of the Battle of Britain that the flagship Ju 88 A-4 went into service....maybe some more digging will confirm yes or no on this one. 

Classic Airframes also have the Walrus in 1/48
Classic Airframes Boulton Paul Defiant TT Mk.I/TTMk.III 1/48
Special Hobby Blackburn Roc Mk.I. Similarly to the RAF 
Roden Gloster Gladiator Mk I and II and Sea Gladiator Mk.I 1/48
Classic Airframes Avro Anson Mk.1. 1/48
Classic Airframes Dornier Do 17P/Z 1/48 (And Revell/Monogram I think.)
Classic Airframe Bristol Blenheim Mk.I/IF/IV/IVF/V 1/48
Tamiya Beaufighter, just need some conversion to Mk I 1/48 
Classic Airframes Westland Whirlwind 1/48


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## Airframes (Mar 2, 2009)

The Tamiya nightfighter Beaufighter kit has the spinners, and it's dead easy to get the horizontal tailplane - horizontal.
I think Hobbycraft have reissued one of their Dornier 17's too.


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## rochie (Mar 2, 2009)

there's a whirlwind in 1/48 i got to get one of those, only seen them in 1/72 !


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## muller (Mar 2, 2009)

Don't forget the Italians.

Corpo Aereo Italiano participated in the battle. Fiat CR.42, Fiat BR.20M, Fiat G.50bis, Cant Z.1007bis, Caproni Ca.133. 

They got their asses kicked!

CR.42 in Belgium.


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## Lucky13 (Mar 3, 2009)

Cool M! Just noticed that R/M's Do 17 is an E!


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## FlyingPencil (Mar 23, 2009)

Airframes said:


> JU88A1 and A5 yes, doubtful about the A4 though, not C.
> Dornier 17Z yes, and 17P, also, I think 215.
> Hurricane Mk1 yes, MkIIA I don't think made it in time, I'd have to check.
> Also JU87B, Gladiator, Beaufghter 1, Blenheim Mk1 and MkIV(F).
> ...



Sound right!

"Hobby" made 1/48 Do-17z, but not produced in long time, but heard someone else (monogram) will start new production.

Do-215 was in service and did go to UK, but no 1/48 kit, but get a 1/48 kit Bf-110 for engines and so a little scratch work. 
Maybe mod kits out there?

By BoB, the 17z's had 6 MG's installed, a few could have had 8.
And all the KG's (2, 3 76, 77) where involved.

HF!
S!

Oh, yes. the Ju-88A-4 came in at the trailing edge of the BoB. the A-1/A-5 is it. GJ on that bit.


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## Airframes (Mar 24, 2009)

Model Hobbies in the UK have the Hobbycraft Dornier Do17Z, 1/48th scale, in stock. Any JU88A4 can be easily converted to an A5 and, with a bit more work, to the A1 version. All we need now is for Revell/Monogram to re-issue the He111 in 1/48th scale, and Airfix to do the same with their Ju87B.


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## Lucky13 (Mar 24, 2009)

What's the Airfix '87B like old scout?


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## Airframes (Mar 24, 2009)

By the standards of the day (early '80's) it was excellent Jan. I reckon it would still hold up well today, with very little 'extra' work out of the box. With any aftermarket bits, which, as you know, I try to avoid, I reckon it could be very good indeed.


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