# 4 Canadians killed, 6 wounded in big battle with Taliban in Afghanistan



## 102first_hussars (Sep 3, 2006)

Canadian troops launched a ground assault on an insurgent position Sunday and met fierce resistance that killed four Canadians and injured six others in one of the deadliest battles since Ottawa sent soldiers to Afghanistan in 2002. 
The Canadians moved in with light armoured vehicles in the early morning after NATO forces had pounded enemy positions for more than 24 hours with helicopter gunships, artillery and bombs. 

Taliban insurgents put up a stiff fight, using small arms and rocket propelled grenades to hit back at the Canadians, who later returned to their own stronghold. 

Some soldiers expressed surprise at how stubbornly Taliban fighters had defended their ground, near a river valley that cuts a green ribbon through this desert area west of Kandahar city. Others noted NATO commanders had given everyone including the enemy a few days of advance notice before starting Operation Medusa in Panjwaii district. 

NATO officials maintained the operation was a success, taking out key Taliban command and control facilities. The alliance estimates it has killed 200 Taliban militants and captured 80, and says local residents reported that about 180 insurgents had fled the scene. 

It came at a cost to the Canadian Forces. 

"I am saddened to announce that four Canadian soldiers were killed during today's operations, and a number of others were wounded," Canadian Brig.-Gen. David Fraser said in a briefing. 

"All but one of the wounded is expected to resume their duties within the next few days." 

Two of the dead were identified as Warrant Officer Frank Robert Mellish and Warrant Officer Richard Francis Nolan, both of 1st Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment, based at CFB Petawawa. 

The names of the other two Canadians killed had not been released at the request of their families. 

Prime Minister Stephen Harper offered "heartfelt condolences" to the families and friends of those killed, as well as his wishes for "the speedy recovery of the six other soldiers who were injured." 

"We are proud of these soldiers' contribution to bring stability and hope to the people of Afghanistan," Harper said in a statement. 

Earlier Sunday, an official with NATO's International Security Assistance Force, or ISAF, said four NATO soldiers were killed in Panjwaii district and seven wounded. The official did not give their nationalities. 

"They were moving into a position," Fraser said, explaining how the Canadians were killed. "They came under insurgent attacks and during these attacks they succumbed to injuries from the insurgents." 

"Despite these losses, Operation Medusa will continue," Fraser said, referring to the sweeping operation in Panjwaii, a district that covers an area roughly between 20 and 40 kilometres west of Kandahar city. 

"ISAF is determined to remove the Taliban threat from this region," Fraser said. 

Fighting was continuing. U.S. jets and helicopters bombed and strafed suspected Taliban positions late into Sunday night. 

On the frontlines, soldiers felt shock waves from the bombardment as they waited anxiously to learn the identities of the dead Canadians. 

"Most likely they're our good buddies too," said Cpl. J.R. Smith from Mount Pearl, N.L. 


Several seemed anxious to get back into the battlefield. 

"They all know their job, they have a lot of pride in their job, that's why they're here, they know their country is behind them," said Master Cpl. Steve Vukic from Port-au-Choix, N.L. 

"We're all one big unit and we have a mission to do." 

Some soldiers said they did not expect the strength of the Taliban defence. 

"Truthfully, I was surprised by the resistance they put up," said Maj. Geoff Abthorpe, commander of Bravo Company of Task Force Kandahar and a member of the Royal Canadian Regiment. 

"We came at them with what I perceived to be a pretty heavy fist." 

The last time the Canadian Forces suffered as many deaths in one day was Aug. 3 when two roadside bombings and a hail of rocket-propelled grenades killed four Canadians and injured 10. Most of those casualties occurred near the village of Pashmul within Panjwaii district. 

Sunday's casualties will likely raise questions about NATO tactics. Planning for the assault was supposed to be secret until U.S. Col. Steve Williams laid down a public warning to the Taliban in Panjwaii last week that it was time to run or die. 

Canadians were also warning civilians in the area to leave, dropping leaflets and meeting with local elders. There were no reports of civilian casualties in the latest clashes, NATO said. 

Abthorpe said the warnings were a double-edged sword. 

"Of course any time you broadcast plans as openly as we did to an enemy force they will take the opportunity to do something with that time," Abthorpe said. 

"Time on the battlefield is one of the most valuable weapons we have. There's no denying it would have given the hardliners a chance to dig in that little bit more. But, if they did, that would have been a perfect opportunity for us to identify them through our intelligence assets and pinpoint them. Again, a double-edged sword." 

The marijuana and grape fields along the Arghandab River formed the only green strip for kilometres in a region dominated by desert sand as fine as talcum powder. Soldiers played horseshoes with spent cannon shells as officers prepared to adjust their tactics for another assault. 

"We can learn from what went on down there," said Abthorpe. "We can draw on that experience." 

Canada has about 2,200 troops involved in operations in southern Afghanistan. Most of the Canadian combat units are participating in Operation Medusa. 

Coalition troops have fought several battles to take and retake the Panjwaii area in recent months. Before Sunday's casualties, at least six Canadians died and 32 were wounded in dozens of bomb attacks and ambushes. 

In June, Canadian commanders declared they had taken the area in the so-called "Battle of Panjwaii." Within weeks, however, the Taliban were once again operating in the area and Canadians were attacked several times a week. 

With the latest deaths, 31 Canadian soldiers and one diplomat have been killed in Afghanistan since 2002. 

ISAF, the NATO force, is in Afghanistan to help the Afghan government exert control over a country where insurgents, warlords and drug kingpins hold influence over wide swaths of territory.


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## evangilder (Sep 4, 2006)




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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 4, 2006)




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## Gnomey (Sep 4, 2006)




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## Wildcat (Sep 4, 2006)




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## Gnomey (Sep 4, 2006)




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## Nonskimmer (Sep 4, 2006)

Can you believe that commie Jack Layton wants our government to open up talks with the Taliban? Will some things never change? 

Talks with the Taliban?! Jesus, wake the f*ck up Jack!


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## 102first_hussars (Sep 4, 2006)

Hell get in bed with everyone, just like the Liberals


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## Maestro (Sep 4, 2006)

Nonskimmer said:


> Can you believe that commie Jack Layton wants our government to open up talks with the Taliban? Will some things never change?
> 
> Talks with the Taliban?! Jesus, wake the f*ck up Jack!



You know, in hundreds of million of years there is one thing that never changed : @ssholes. So why are you so surprised ? Layton *is* an @sshole.


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 4, 2006)

Nonskimmer said:


> Can you believe that commie Jack Layton wants our government to open up talks with the Taliban?


Drop him off in the middle of Kandahar province and let him seek out the Taliban for talks - you could retrieve his body in the spring, with a little luck his head will still be attached!


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## 102first_hussars (Sep 5, 2006)

Maestro said:


> You know, in hundreds of million of years there is one thing that never changed : @ssholes. So why are you so surprised ? Layton *is* an @sshole.




Yes but if we can find the [email protected], we can draw up the final solution of the @sshole problem


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## Hunter368 (Sep 5, 2006)

They will be missed.


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## plan_D (Sep 5, 2006)

The Taliban are resourceful, and are becoming quite battle-hardened. NATO should really stop announcing it's intentions, or more deaths will come soon. It's a shame any soldiers have to die, but four is a small number and we're still inflicting heavy loss on the enemy. The numbers will start to rise if we continue to tell the enemy what we're doing though. 

Knowing where the enemy is dug-in doesn't achieve results if you can't destroy it before the troops get there. If the Taliban don't know what's coming and don't dig-in, catch them in the open when they start fleeing.


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## 102first_hussars (Sep 5, 2006)

"four is a small number and we're still inflicting heavy loss on the enemy. The numbers will start to rise if we continue to tell the enemy what we're doing though." 

Four is four too many,and this is becoming a routine,You think the Canadian military can afford to lose over 1000 men to the insurgents, like the americans have, no! we cant we dont have the manpower to afford that, and news hit again, the U.S military f*cked up again, 1 man has been killed and about 30 others wounded in yet another friendly fire incident, you can probably understand that i am f*cking livid right now.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 5, 2006)

102first_hussars said:


> the U.S military f*cked up again, 1 man has been killed and about 30 others wounded in yet another friendly fire incident, you can probably understand that i am f*cking livid right now.


I don't imagine the Afghanis are too hellish impressed with the Canadian troops who shot and killed that policeman either. Go figure.

CBC News: Canadian soldiers kill Afghan police officer


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## Hunter368 (Sep 5, 2006)

102first_hussars said:


> "four is a small number and we're still inflicting heavy loss on the enemy. The numbers will start to rise if we continue to tell the enemy what we're doing though."
> 
> Four is four too many,and this is becoming a routine,You think the Canadian military can afford to lose over 1000 men to the insurgents, like the americans have, no! we cant we dont have the manpower to afford that, and news hit again, the U.S military f*cked up again, 1 man has been killed and about 30 others wounded in yet another friendly fire incident, you can probably understand that i am f*cking livid right now.



Hussars,

I have family in the Military also, I feel for those families to. We are doing our part, the best of our ability, to fight terrorists. Whether its 1 Canadian or 1 UK or 1 US soldier its too many, one death is one death, they are all too many but they are the cost to fight terror.

US military is doing the best it can also, it also bears alot more weight in the global fight vs terror so I think we Canadians can cut them some slack. It was a accident thats all it was, they were doing their job the best they can.

Do you think we could do it any better??? Accidents happen, they are tragic but they still happen.

Don't focus your anger at the US military when it should be focused at terrorists. We are all in this fight together, some contribute more than others but we all fight side by side. USA has lost alot more people than we have. A USA death is no less than a Canadian death.

Where would the world be without USA aid in fighting terror?

Stay focused on the real enemy here.....terrorists.


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## 102first_hussars (Sep 5, 2006)

"US military is doing the best it can also, it also bears alot more weight in the global fight vs terror so I think we Canadians can cut them some slack. It was a accident thats all it was, they were doing their job the best they can."

I dont doubt that the U.S military is doing whatever it can to prevent such things, but im not going to just turn the other cheek when these things happen, im sorry, my grandfather was crippled by a P-51 tank-buster, his Sherman was bombed, he lossed his leg and the use of his right arm, you can say this was an accident, i will accept that, but if you look up accident in the dictionary, it will say, "a negative result due to human error" all accidents are preventable. 

And yes Nonskimmer, i see what your saying, the shooting of that Afgani Police Officer was horrrible, but im gonna hold my breath until there is more info, because it says that the guy was not in uniform and he didnt yeild to warning shots, and after a firefight with guys in a speeding van, thats a big no no.


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## Hunter368 (Sep 5, 2006)

102first_hussars said:


> "US military is doing the best it can also, it also bears alot more weight in the global fight vs terror so I think we Canadians can cut them some slack. It was a accident thats all it was, they were doing their job the best they can."
> 
> I dont doubt that the U.S military is doing whatever it can to prevent such things, but im not going to just turn the other cheek when these things happen, im sorry, my grandfather was crippled by a P-51 tank-buster, his Sherman was bombed, he lossed his leg and the use of his right arm, you can say this was an accident, i will accept that, but if you look up accident in the dictionary, it will say, "a negative result due to human error" all accidents are preventable.
> 
> And yes Nonskimmer, i see what your saying, the shooting of that Afgani Police Officer was horrrible, but im gonna hold my breath until there is more info, because it says that the guy was not in uniform and he didnt yeild to warning shots, and after a firefight with guys in a speeding van, thats a big no no.



Hussar's,

I deal every day in numbers, humans are not perfect, all accidents cannot prevented 100% of the time. They will happen as long as we have humans doing anything. Humans make errors. All we can do is "try to reduce" the numbers of accidents.


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## 102first_hussars (Sep 5, 2006)

Hunter368 said:


> Hussar's,
> 
> I deal every day in numbers, humans are not perfect, all accidents cannot prevented 100% of the time. They will happen as long as we have humans doing anything. Humans make errors. All we can do is "try to reduce" the numbers of accidents.




Actually you are wrong, you know what the numer 1 type of injury in Canada alone is? 

Its preventable injury, Accidents


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## Hunter368 (Sep 5, 2006)

102first_hussars said:


> Actually you are wrong, you know what the numer 1 type of injury in Canada alone is?
> 
> Its preventable injury, Accidents



No I am not wrong Hussar. Are you perfect? no

Am I perfect? no

None of us are. We are human.

Preventable means that is "possable" to prevent something. But thats with 20/20 hindsight, humans are not all knowing all seeing. When you place humans in stressful job while multitasking they will make mistakes. I deal with this everyday of my life. Thats is large part of what I do for a living. Mistakes happen, once thats excepted all you can do is learn from that mistake to see if it can prevented from happening again in the future.

I deal with work place injuries all the time, all we can do is our best to forsee and prevent accidents from happening. Being 100% mistake free means you are doing nothing or you are dreaming. Humans make mistakes, machines are not even mistake free b/c they are programmed and made by humans. 

Mistakes happen.

Here is the Webster meaning for "preventable" :To keep from happening or existing. To hold back: hinder: stop.

To me the key word pertaining to this talk is "hinder". We can do all we can to hinder or reduce accidents from happening. We will never....ever stop 100% accidents from happening as long as we are humans.


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 5, 2006)

102first_hussars said:


> "four is a small number and we're still inflicting heavy loss on the enemy. The numbers will start to rise if we continue to tell the enemy what we're doing though."
> 
> Four is four too many,and this is becoming a routine,You think the Canadian military can afford to lose over 1000 men to the insurgents, like the americans have, no! we cant we dont have the manpower to afford that, and news hit again, the U.S military f*cked up again, 1 man has been killed and about 30 others wounded in yet another friendly fire incident, you can probably understand that i am f*cking livid right now.


Hussars, I'm telling you straight up - you're being a *****ing @sshole and you're really pissing me off. You weren't there, you have no idea who called in the air strike from the ground and who was the FAC, American or Canadian. The US have had several friendly fire incidences where we bombed our own troops and yes its unfortunate, but its part of war and unless the FAC got his sh*t together he's going to kill his own troops and maybe himself. As time has gone on in this conflict US on US friendly fire incidences have become less and less as the learning curb flattened (It's an unfortunate way to learn, but that the facts) So until all the facts are uncovered and until it is found out who called the strike in on their position (my guess it was a Canadian FAC) I suggest you shut the f#ck up and pull your head out of your @ss.

BTW we haven't lost 1000 troops in Afghanistan!!!!


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## pbfoot (Sep 5, 2006)

The facts will speak for themselves did someone transpose a number in a situation like that it happens . I would think that SOP would be to readback the position ,did the Taliban fake the call .Lets wait to find out what happened and Hussars you should know this as CWO in JTF2 or Field Marshall or whatever rank you say you were in Cadets


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 5, 2006)

Thank you PB...


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 5, 2006)

Here a newsclip from the CBC - It isn't clear who called in the strike. Whether the pilots attacked the right coordinates, well the investigation will sort that out...

Friendly fire that killed Canadian was 'freak accident,' major says - Yahoo! Canada News

_"Maj. Geoff Abthorpe - who commands Bravo Company, part of Canada's 2,200-strong contribution to the NATO force in Afghanistan - called the incident "a freak accident."


The soldiers were "marshalling and getting into position" when they were hit, Abthorpe told the Canadian Press late Monday.


NATO said the aircraft had engaged friendly forces during a strafing run, using cannons.


"I'm not sure who brought them in and for what reason," said Abthorpe, a member of the Royal Canadian Regiment.


"It wasn't us, of course. We were getting prepped to go out but our first air mission wasn't scheduled until 30 minutes later."_


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## plan_D (Sep 6, 2006)

hussars, four deaths is four deaths too many. But you cannot expect no one to be injured or die in a warzone. Four deaths in a single battle where some two-hundred of the enemy was killed is a pretty good number. My condolences to the family, but this is a war and in war people die. The Coalition has maintained a kill to loss ratio far beyond anything recorded in the past. And as long as that is kept up, the losses are acceptable.


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## Hunter368 (Sep 6, 2006)

plan_D said:


> hussars, four deaths is four deaths too many. But you cannot expect no one to be injured or die in a warzone. Four deaths in a single battle where some two-hundred of the enemy was killed is a pretty good number. My condolences to the family, but this is a war and in war people die. The Coalition has maintained a kill to loss ratio far beyond anything recorded in the past. And as long as that is kept up, the losses are acceptable.



Agreed


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 8, 2006)

FBJ I am surprised you are letting this get to you. Hussars blames the US for anythign and everythign that goes wrong, any mistake, and any problems that his country has. He has done that from day one when he joined this forum.

I was starting to stay out of this thread for a while but I will put my two cents in now.

1. I wish to say these soldiers will surely be missed, any coalition loss is tragic no matter how it happens. 

2. Mistakes happen. Friendly fire happens. It has happened since day 1 of conflict. Hussars if you have actually spent 2 days in the Army you should know that. It is tragic but it happens in war.

3. The US does not go around dropping bombs on anything it wants to just to kill them, especially if they have a Maple Leaf on there flag.

4. I know all about fratricide. My unit had 2 Blackhawks shot down by USAF F-15s in the first Gulf War. Was it tragic, Yes. Am I mad at the USAF, NO.

5. Most of the time when fratricide happens it happens because multiple failures. I am pretty sure that not only did the USAF pilot drop his bombs on the wrong target but more than likely the Canadians or who ever called in the airstrike (maybe it was the Canadians maybe it was an artillery observer) more than likely gave the wrong coordinates.

Do you know how many times the USAF has recieved the exact coordinates for an airstrike that the caller is sitting in from the caller? More than you probably think Hussars.

Basically what I am saying Hussars is this:

LEARN THE FACTS BEFORE YOU PASS JUDGEMENT.


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 8, 2006)

Thanks Chris, you put the perfect perspective on this..

_Here's another statement about operations in the area...

"NATO spokesman Mark Laity said the force's soldiers flew in roughly 800 missions during the past month and used their weapons in about 450 of them — without killing any allies until now.

"It shows you how rare [friendly fire] is," Laity said."_


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## Hunter368 (Sep 8, 2006)

Well said Chris. I am proud to be a Canadian and proud to have the Americans as Allies.


Hussars remember who the enemy is here, its the terrorists not the Americans. **** happens, accidents happen. Just drop it (no pun intended).


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 8, 2006)

It might do people well to remember too that incidents like this happen in _any_ military, Canada's included. A young PPCLI trooper was accidentally shot and killed by one of his own buddies a fairly short time ago. The poor fella had only been in the theatre for about a week, and was killed by one of our very own. Accidental discharge of the weapon. It happens. It's a shItty, shItty thing, but it does happen on occasion. Where the US military is so large and so active, it's bound to happen a little more often perhaps, but it doesn't make the Americans incompetent fools. Unfortunately, a lot of people tend to react to this sort of thing almost as if it were done on purpose. We can't afford to lose focus and start to hate allies for every unfortunate occurrence. Men die in combat, and not always from direct enemy fire. You should hear my great-uncle's take on some of the events of WWII. Friendly fire was almost a way of life, it happened so often.


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## Hunter368 (Sep 8, 2006)

Agreed Wayne that is what I keep telling Hussar.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 9, 2006)

That was well put Wayne.


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## pbfoot (Sep 9, 2006)

What is the SOP on giving co-ordinates? is it required to have a read back ? In giving ATC clearances it was reqd to have a verbatim readback. I can imagine the pilot got a boatload of numbers in his head altimeter, fuel state, eng temp ,altitude speed, lost comm procedure etc it would be so easy to transpose a number and sometimes even if you punch in the incorrect number it when you reread it it seems correct. The fact being the unknowing tend to sensationalize it makes better news


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 10, 2006)

Yes it is required to be read back verbatum. We used to have call in coordinates from our helicoper from ground guys to the mortor teams sometimes downrange in Iraq so they could put down some fierey hell on some insurgents.


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## pbfoot (Sep 30, 2006)

this excellent piece of reporting should clarify or enhance the friendly fire incident ...... good article ...... Those boys were under a wee bit of pressure 8 guys outa forty stood role the next day
TheStar.com - The story of C Company


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