# Gladiators of World War II : Waffen SS



## Maestro (Oct 14, 2007)

Greetings ladies and gentlemen.

I just fount that on YouTube. They say they were only soldiers following orders... I can understand that comming from a Wermacht, Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine officer, but comming from a Waffen SS soldier ?!? No way ! That is bullsh*t. They are only trying to save their asses.

Part 1 : 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAVZVbYx00M_
Part 2 : 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80R5OgLsl00_
Part 3 : 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQDhcjcHMB0_
Part 4 : 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qc6CI-E3TU_
Part 5 : 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fXEyN7w2xQ_

Enjoy !


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## david johnson (Oct 15, 2007)

the ss were, and are, despicable.

dj


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 19, 2007)

I dont understand the adjetive "gladiators" applied to the SS, nice vids aniways.8)


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## Stukazoo (Apr 25, 2009)

This is an aircraft site but read some history before tarnishing the whole Waffen SS with the ubiquitous 'SS' brush. These soldiers were indeed Gladiators... just ask their opponents!


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## Maximowitz (Apr 25, 2009)

Stukazoo said:


> This is an aircraft site but read some history before tarnishing the whole Waffen SS with the ubiquitous 'SS' brush. These soldiers were indeed Gladiators... just ask their opponents!



I couldn't agree more, you need to do a lot more research to find out the truth...

... and Gladiators? Well, not a term I'd use, far too much hyperbole, but if there ever was a man fitting that description it would be:

Joachim Peiper


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 25, 2009)

I think a lot of people confuse the Waffen SS with the Algemeine SS.

Now having said that, most atrocities and war crimes committed by the Germans were committed by both forms of the SS.


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## Maximowitz (Apr 25, 2009)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I think a lot of people confuse the Waffen SS with the Algemeine SS.
> 
> Now having said that, most atrocities and war crimes committed by the Germans were committed by both forms of the SS.



Very true. An excellent book on a particular unit is "Das Reich" by Max Hastings, examining the circumstances of the Oradour-sur-Glane incident in detail.


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## Thorlifter (Apr 25, 2009)

Adler, wasn't the Allgemeine SS a more "generic" form of the Waffen SS, where the true "bad guys" were from the Waffen SS?

I put those words in quotes because I mean them in very general terms.


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## Maximowitz (Apr 25, 2009)

Thorlifter said:


> Adler, wasn't the Allgemeine SS a more "generic" form of the Waffen SS, where the true "bad guys" were from the Waffen SS?
> 
> I put those words in quotes because I mean them in very general terms.



Broadly speaking the other way around. The Waffen SS were the fighting units and the Allgemeine SS were anything from university professors, geopolitical and racial theorists to concentration camp administrators and guards. Sometimes the distinctions were blurred, for example the Totenkopfverbande which both supplied concentration camp personel to begin with but later became a military fighting unit as the 3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf.

It's a very difficult subject to be objective about, for every honourable SS man like Paul Hausser you have on the other hand despicable psychopaths like Oskar Dirlewanger. So, as ever, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.


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## Hesekiel (Apr 25, 2009)

There are a lot of differences between the "Allgemeine SS" and the Waffen SS".. And even differences in the Waffen SS too...
No excuse for warcrimes from EVERY unit or formation.. but "damning" the whole Waffen SS is wrong.. The real "Bastards" were the "Totenkopf-Verbände" This special unit was in duty in the KZ´s and other horrible Places.
In Fact the Waffen SS was a "Elite-Coprs".. I would like to compare it with the Marines or other units...
At the end of the war very much guys had no choice.. They were simply "drawn" into the SS units.. Even a lot aof Aircrews of the Kampfgeschwader. When the KG´s changed to KG(J) the The "supernumerary" crewmembers (Radio Op´s, Gunners, Observers) was transferred either to a Luftwaffen Felddivision or even the Waffen-SS....


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## Maximowitz (Apr 25, 2009)

....and you also have the fact that the Waffen SS became a kind of "French Foreign Legion" in that it recruited Dutch, French, Norwegian and Danish members amongst other nationalities. There was also a small British contingent recruited from POW's called the British Freikorp. A lot of these people were mostly politically motivated against Communism, not some ridiculous theory of racial purity or anti semitism.


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## evangilder (Apr 25, 2009)

I partly agree, Maximowitz. There were some of the Ukrainian SS units that were extremely brutal, as well as some of the other foreign units.


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## Maximowitz (Apr 25, 2009)

Quite so. You have the Kaminski Brigade in mind? The whole thing has more grey areas than my hair. I'm off back to my love of hopeless Luftwaffe twins, my next thread will be "Bf 110 vs Space Shuttle" or "Me 410 vs F22 Raptor."


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## Amsel (Apr 25, 2009)

The Waffen SS were soldiers. They fought at the front and were no more involved in war crimes then any other units at the front. There was proven to be warcrimes committed by both sides during WWII as would happen in any total war. The Allgemine SS were the despicable ones and were involved in some very sinister things. Some of the Waffen SS units who were involved and formed for anti-partisan missions, such as the 7./SS "Prinz Eugen" have a very bad record indeed as only fighting armed civilians would cause.


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## evangilder (Apr 25, 2009)

There were 38 divisions of SS, some units were barbarians, while other served like normal soldiers. But the barbarity of the worse units tarnish any image of the SS. Here is an example, from Wikipedia, but it is documented elsewhere:


> At the other end of Europe, the Waffen-SS was dealing with the Warsaw Uprising. Between August and October 1944, the Dirlewanger Brigade and the Waffen-Sturm-Brigade RONA as well as a number of smaller units were sent to Warsaw to put down the uprising. During the battle, the Dirlewanger behaved atrociously, *raping, looting and killing* citizens of Warsaw regardless of whether they belonged to the Polish resistance or not; Oskar Dirlewanger himself encouraged their excesses. The unit's behaviour was reportedly so bestial and indiscriminate that Himmler was forced to detail an attached battalion of SS military police for the sole purpose of ensuring the Dirlewanger convicts did not turn their aggressions against their own leaders or nearby German units. At the same time they were encouraged by Himmler to terrorize freely, take no prisoners, and generally indulge their perverse tendencies. Favoured tactics of the Dirlewanger men during the siege reportedly included the ubiquitous *gang rape of female Poles*, both women and children, *playing "bayonet catch" with live babies*, and *torturing captives to death by hacking off their arms, dousing them with gasoline, and setting them alight to run armless and flaming down the street.*[90][91] The Dirlewanger brigade committed almost non-stop atrocities during this period, in particular the four-day Wola massacre.


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## Maximowitz (Apr 25, 2009)

Amsel said:


> The Waffen SS were soldiers. They fought at the front and were no more involved in war crimes then any other units at the front. There was proven to be warcrimes committed by both sides during WWII as would happen in any total war. The Allgemine SS were the despicable ones and were involved in some very sinister things. Some of the Waffen SS units who were involved and formed for anti-partisan missions, such as the 7./SS "Prinz Eugen" have a very bad record indeed as only fighting armed civilians would cause.



I would be interested on you views concerning the 2nd SS Panzer Division "Das Reich" behaviour at Oradour-sur-Glane in that case. I've been there. It's not pretty.


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## Hesekiel (Apr 25, 2009)

Oradour was a absolutely horrible thing...
But you should note one thing...
This crime was taken by *one company* of the division. This has discredited the whole division..
I had named in my first post only the "Totenkopf-Verbände".. Yrs.. there were more units.. Dirlewanger, Handschar and a few more...


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## evangilder (Apr 25, 2009)

I was listing that one as one of the horrific examples of the SS. There are others that were bad as well.


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## Amsel (Apr 25, 2009)

Maximowitz said:


> I would be interested on you views concerning the 2nd SS Panzer Division "Das Reich" behaviour at Oradour-sur-Glane in that case. I've been there. It's not pretty.


Sure, no problem.
I cannot think of too many things more horrible then to take another persons life. Goverments have historically sanctioned killing of humans or homocide, since people formed goverments. The pain and havoc unleashed upon the world by humans goverments in WWII cannot be measured. The war crimes committed by Das Reich ( who were not following the rules of homocide) are repugnant. In the modern civilized world of homocide there are rules that cannot be broken. 

My heart goes out to the victims of all warcimes in France, the Balkans, Berlin, Russia, and Dresden.


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## Maestro (Apr 26, 2009)

Amsel said:


> My heart goes out to the victims of all warcimes in France, the Balkans, Berlin, Russia, and Dresden.



If you consider Dresden as a War Crime, then you must list London, Liverpool and every other English cities who suffered from the Blitz in 1940...

...As well as Poland and Holland.


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## Hesekiel (Apr 26, 2009)

You can call EVERY bombing of a civil city a war crime...
A fact is that it was well known that the city of Dresden was overfilled with escapees...........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 26, 2009)

Thorlifter said:


> Adler, wasn't the Allgemeine SS a more "generic" form of the Waffen SS, where the true "bad guys" were from the Waffen SS?
> 
> I put those words in quotes because I mean them in very general terms.



Actually it goes a lot more deeper than that.

The Algemeine SS were a non combat form of the SS and the Waffen SS were an elite fighting force.

There were many different branches of the SS. The worst of them were the SS-Totenkopfverbände which were the concentration camp guards.

That is the thing though, you can not lump the whole SS into one big clump. There literally were a dozen different branches of the SS.



Hesekiel said:


> A fact is that it was well known that the city of Dresden was overfilled with escapees...........



Does not change a thing. London, Amsterdam, Warsaw, etc. all were well known to have civilians living in them!


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## Hesekiel (Apr 26, 2009)

You are right.. look at the first part of my post that you have not quoted....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 26, 2009)

Hesekiel said:


> You are right.. look at the first part of my post that you have not quoted....



No, I chose not to quote it. You make it seem like Dresden was worse because there were refugees in the city. How are refugees worse than any other civilian?


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## Hesekiel (Apr 26, 2009)

What i mean is the mass of refugees.. This town was more than overfilled with them.. And that was a known circumstance.
So i would like to make a difference..


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 26, 2009)

Hesekiel said:


> What i mean is the mass of refugees.. This town was more than overfilled with them.. And that was a known circumstance.
> So i would like to make a difference..



There is no difference. A civilian population is a civilian population. 

Wieluń
Frampol
Rotterdam
London
Belfast
Birmingham
Bristol
Cardiff
Clydebank
Coventry
Greenock
Sheffield
Swansea
Liverpool
Hull
Manchester
Portsmouth
Plymouth
Nottingham
Southampton
Paris
Liege
Lille
Antwerp
Stalingrad
Leningrad

Just to name some of them...

Were all civilian populations. The Germans new that civilians lived there...


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## parsifal (Apr 26, 2009)

This is not going to be popular, but the blame for warcrimes does not rest with the SS. It is with the Nazi regime as a whole. It is true that warcrimes were committed by all nations, but the Germans stand out as the exception to the rule, even the Japanese.

Only the Germans issued illegal orders, contrary to the Hague conventions to shoot and murder Prisoners of War. That is an illegal order repeated by no other nation, not even the Japanese. The accusation of illegality cannot be levelled at the Japs, because they were no signatories to the Hague or Geneva conventions. The orders issued by Hitler were issued as secret orders, because it was known that they were not legal under international law.

So, in my view it is wrong to blame just one element of the German armed forces for the nations entire war guilt. And I have the findings of the Nuremberg trials and the peace treaties between germany to protect me when I state that. The nation of Germany was guilty of waging agrressive war, and state sponsored murder. We should forgive that....its more than sixty years, but we should never forget who, what and why.

I apologize if I offend the German members of this forum, but it is an issue I feel very strongly about. Who was responsible for the war and the guilt they carry for that.


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## Hesekiel (Apr 26, 2009)

You know.. i could also make a long list with names of cities..
I think we have there a different opinion...
You are right if you say civilian is civilian... BUT.. in my eyes there is a big difference if it is known that a city is so overfilled with people that there is now place for them in the buildings, shelters or bunkers... The streets of the town was full with refugees .. and THIS is the fact i mean...
Bombing civilian cities is a crime.. Bombing a civilian city that is overfilled with refugees and this circumstance is known is simply a act of mass-homicide...
That is my personal opinion....
And... don´t forget to name the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki....


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## Amsel (Apr 26, 2009)

I know there were other victims of war crime and continue to be up until this day. Times were very different back then in Germany during the war. I will reserve judgement on the Germans but not the crimes. That war was horrible and unecessary, and was made worse by the hare-brained racial policies of the goverment as well as it's excesses in taking human life. But I think the act of killing people illegally according to the laws of war comes down to a very slippery slope. Any one who orders it to be done is guilty of war crimes and should be killed. But what about shell shocked units? this seems to be a recurring theme throughout history of war. Civilian populations taking the brunt of the anger from weary or crazed troops.


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## evangilder (Apr 26, 2009)

Not just civilians, but POWs as well. I was reading some yesterday about the liberation of Dachau. Americans separated out the SS from the other Wehrmacht soldiers and gunned down many because they were SS. They had just come from discovering train loads of dead bodies on their way to Dachau. After seeing that, it appears the Americans weren't feeling too forgiving. Coupled with some of Patton's quotes, there was quite a bloodbath outside of Dachau. War is hell.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 26, 2009)

Hesekiel said:


> You know.. i could also make a long list with names of cities..
> I think we have there a different opinion...
> You are right if you say civilian is civilian... BUT.. in my eyes there is a big difference if it is known that a city is so overfilled with people that there is now place for them in the buildings, shelters or bunkers... The streets of the town was full with refugees .. and THIS is the fact i mean...
> Bombing civilian cities is a crime.. Bombing a civilian city that is overfilled with refugees and this circumstance is known is simply a act of mass-homicide...
> ...



NO there is no difference. I do not care how many civilians were there or not. The fact that you over and over again try to state otherwise is wrong!

Why do you try and church it up???


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## Hesekiel (Apr 26, 2009)

Well.. This is your opinion and i have my one.. think we should simply respect each others.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 26, 2009)

I do not understand your opinion. Sorry, it is so.

Whenever someone brings up German atrocities you quickly change the subject. We all know that atrocities were committed by all sides during the war. That does not change the fact that Germany committed the worst.

To say that Dresden is worse than London or Antwerp is terrible.

To always try and change the subject is terrible!

I am not anti German. I am half German, I have lived here for over 20 years, my mother is German, my wife is German. I believe it is time to forgive, but we can never forget. To try and church things up like that, is almost as bad as saying it never happened!

I mean lets bring up Frampol. It was completely destroyed by the Luftwaffe for one and one reason only. To test and see what would happen when you bomb a town! 

"The Bombing of Frampol happened during the German invasion of Poland in 1939. On 13 September, the town of Frampol (Poland), with a population of 4,000, was bombed by the German Luftwaffe as a practice run for future missions. Over 60%[1] to 90%[2] of town's infrastructure was destroyed; only two streets remained untouched, plus a few houses.[3] As Norman Davies writes in

"Europe at War 1939-1945: No Simple Victory‎":Frampol was chosen partly because it was completely defenceless, and partly because its baroque street plan presented a perfect geometric grid.[4] The city lacked any military facilities or military defenders."

Here is a pic of Frampol. Left is before the bombing and right is afterwards:







Now this discussion has gotten off topic enough. Basically I am saying that before you downplay something you might want look at the other side as well.


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## Hesekiel (Apr 26, 2009)

Oh oh...
I don´t change the subject anyway!
But i can´t understand your opinion...
I said it often enough... Bombing civilian cities is a crime..
And again i say if it is known that a city is such overfilled like Dresden it is mass homicide... I would say exactly the same if those things happened by germans....
Explain me please what you mean with "anytime i change the subject"..
I think i go my way straight!
I tell only my point of view.. not more and not less.. like you..


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 26, 2009)

Hesekiel said:


> And again i say if it is known that a city is such overfilled like Dresden it is mass homicide...



How are the lives of the people in Dresden any less than those living in Liverpool? Were the people in Frampol able to defend themselves? See my point? You basically are saying that the lives of others are less, because only Dresden was mass homicide?  



Hesekiel said:


> Explain me please what you mean with "anytime i change the subject"..
> I think i go my way straight!
> I tell only my point of view.. not more and not less.. like you..



You always do. This is a discussion about the Waffen SS and you quickly bring up about how Dresden was a crime! In threads that are about the Nazi Death Camps you quickly bring up the American Native Indians. Don't take me wrong, what happened to them was a tragedy as well, but if you want to discuss that then do so in a thread about that, don't change the subject of the existing thread, especially on such a sensitive subject.

Now again, we have taken this way off topic enough, lets get back to the topic at hand. Waffen SS...


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## Hesekiel (Apr 26, 2009)

Yes.. the thread have run off topic enough...
But i think i have to clear something, because i feel me personally attacked..
1. My post about dresden was a reaction of the posts from Amsel and Maestro
2. I NEVER doubted german war crimes !
The only thing i want to say is that every nation have done wrong things sometimes.. And i thing there is nothing wrong to do this.
There is absolutely no excuse for the things that are done in the 33/45 periode.. What i say is just my opinion and my point of view.. Believe me.. I´m a nearly 50 years old german and i know the horrible things happened well..
But i don´t have to feel "guilty" . And i think it is allowed to compare something...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 26, 2009)

I do not think anyone feels that you should feel guilty or sorry or have to apologize for what happened. You had nothing to do with, neither did most of the Germans or the Germans who were born after the war.

The only ones who should have to feel guilty or answer for these crimes are those that committed them.


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## Hesekiel (Apr 26, 2009)

So we are at least going in one essential point conform.. 

Let´s go back on topic......


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## parsifal (Apr 26, 2009)

_Oradour was a absolutely horrible thing...
But you should note one thing...
This crime was taken by one company of the division. This has discredited the whole division.._

This excuse would hold water if it were the only massacre the Division was involved in. How would you like to explain the massacres committed by members of the division engaged in reprisals against the towns of Montperzat-de-Quercy, St. Cere, Bagnac, Cardaillac, Lauze, caylus, Cadrieu, Frontenac, Figeac and Terrou, (amongst others), in which extensive looting, rapes, arson and murder of civilians occurred.

Would you care to explain to me how the Divisional standing orders, drafted by no less than Divisional HQ, bearing the signature of its CO, Lammerding, in which he formally outlined the repressive measures to be effected against civilians in areas in which resistance units were operating can be passed off as the activities of a "rogue element" of the division?????. On June 9, Das Reich divisional headquarters issued an Order of the Day, "The Position with Regard to Guerilla Bands and Tactics for Combatting Them". You should take the time to read this document some time, it more extensively and explicitly outlined the scope of reprisals the division was to take (at the minimum) for infractions against the established order, and included a whole range of illegal activities that brought immense and unnecessary suffering to thousands. These and other actions by the OKW Command and Lammerding set the background for subsequent mass reprisals against civilians in France and were consistent with Waffen SS activities by this and other units on the Eastern Front in preceding years." 


The activities of 2nd SS are not unusual or atypical of SS activities, in fact they represented the most "successful" implementation of standard SS policy. To try and pass it off as some sort of "one off" or something unusual is grotesque and offensive to the thousands of dead allied, Soviet French and other allied/occupied countries that suffered at the hands of SS attrocities. PLease do not try and pass that off as some sort of unusual behaviour. It was not.


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## Amsel (Apr 26, 2009)

The Waffen SS was a huge organization during the war, eventually growing into 38 divisions fielding over 950,000 men. It was a volunteer force and the training was quite tough. About 1 in 3 failed the course. The WSS mainly were indoctrinated in weapons, physical fitness and politics. Why would anyone volunteer for the tougher training? I think it is mostly because of the laid back organization of the WSS. Something similar to todays military where mutual respect is emphasized more then strict military discipline.


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## Amsel (Apr 26, 2009)

parsifal said:


> The activities of 2nd SS are not unusual or atypical of SS activities, in fact they represented the most "successful" implementation of standard SS policy. To try and pass it off as some sort of "one off" or something unusual is grotesque and offensive to the thousands of dead allied, Soviet French and other allied/occupied countries that suffered at the hands of SS attrocities. PLease do not try and pass that off as some sort of unusual behaviour. It was not.


 I have to disagree. Most claims of WSS brutality have been unproven and according to some Jewish organizations, the Allgemine SS's crimes are often mistakenly passed onto the WSS.


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## parsifal (Apr 26, 2009)

Amsel said:


> I have to disagree. Most claims of WSS brutality have been unproven and according to some Jewish organizations, the Allgemine SS's crimes are often mistakenly passed onto the WSS.



They are mostly unproven, because in many cases there were no survivors to their brutality. Thats why its sufficient to prove the illegality of the orders to establish evidence of the brutality.

Sorry, but the SS were not soldiers in my book. They were barbariansm because the evidence of misbehaviour is overwhelming.

Oh, and by the way, Jewish organizations of any repute do not differentiate between the two SS groups.


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## Amsel (Apr 26, 2009)

You don't have to apologize for feeling that way. It is perfectly natural to do so. I on the other hand have no problem with talking about the SS as it is perfectly legal to do so in my country and I find WWII a quite interesting subject. You could not talk about many of the famous engagements without mentioning the WSS.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 26, 2009)

parsifal said:


> Sorry, but the SS were not soldiers in my book. They were barbariansm because the evidence of misbehaviour is overwhelming.



I do not think that you can throw all into one pot. I agree that most atrocities were committed by the SS, however if you yourself did not partake in the crimes then that does not make you a barbarian.

I have 2 family members who served in the Waffen SS (which units, I am not sure. The one who is still alive, I will have to ask), as far as I know they themselves never took part in any crimes. They are not barbarians to me, and to call them that is very unfair in my opinion.


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## mkloby (Apr 26, 2009)

parsifal said:


> Oh, and by the way, Jewish organizations of any repute do not differentiate between the two SS groups.



That is a broad statement to make for such groups, don't you think? Have you had many close relationships with Jewish folks?


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## imalko (Apr 26, 2009)

To my knowlege Waffen SS were established as fighting units (as their name suggest) of the "larger SS". Correct me if I'm wrong but Allgemeine SS was including all branches of this complex organisation and these were Waffen SS, Totenkopfverbande, Geheime Statspolizei (Gestapo), Reichsiherheitshauptampt (RSHA), SD (Sicherheitsdienst) etc. As someone said all from university profesors to concentration camp guards. 

I wouldn't place Waffen SS to the same basket as lets say Totenkopfverbande. The Waffen SS were elite fighting units and they fought well participating in almost every major battle in later part of the war. I'm sure that crimes were comitted by some units or members of the Waffen SS since even within Waffen SS itself there were great differences between some units (for example Das Reich or LSAH on the one side and Skenderbeg or Handzar divisions on the other). However, this doesn't change the fact that these formations were primarily envisioned, formed and deployed in battle as fighting units.


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## imalko (Aug 21, 2009)

Was watching the movie "English patient" the other day and there was one scene when William Deffoe's character is being interrogated by high ranking SS officer. He is threatened that his fingers will be cut off if he doesn't cooperate. Few Wehrmacht soldiers present make remarks about Geneva convention but do not dare to oppose the SS officer, so Deffoe's character looses few of his fingers in the process. Entire scene takes place in North Africa in 1942 or 1943.

My question is the fallowing - were there any members of the Waffen SS or any other branch of SS in any form or number historically involved in North African campaign or was this just some artistic liberty made by the filmmakers? I myself have never heard or read about any SS involvement in North Africa.


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## B-17engineer (Aug 21, 2009)

parsifal said:


> Sorry, but the SS were not soldiers in my book. They were barbariansm because the evidence of misbehaviour is overwhelming.




I don't think it's fair to call ALL of them barbarians, or even any barbarians for that matter. The SS distinguished themselves in combat, in a few incidents they became notorious for there atrocities. Plus, the majority of members in the Waffen SS were soldiers NOT criminals. Were there criminals? Yes. 

I just don't think that is a fair generalization.


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## jamierd (Aug 21, 2009)

as far as i have been able in a short look at my small colection of SS books there is no mention of any SStroops having served in North Africa the closest i can see were Leibstandarte and Das Reich who were insrumental in the succes of the whirlwind Balkan campaign


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