# Malaysian Airlines B777 still missing



## nuuumannn (Mar 10, 2014)

BBC link to news story. Very unusual how a modern airliner can just vanish in this day and age.

BBC News - China urges Malaysia to intensify search for flight MH370

The Daily Mail reported that it collided with another aircraft a couple of years ago as news casters round the world are desperate for a story.

Missing Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 plane collided with another plane 2 years ago | Mail Online

Very sad for the families of the missing people aboard.


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## vikingBerserker (Mar 10, 2014)

It is amazing that such a large aircraft can go missing.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Mar 10, 2014)

It's amazing, but not impossible. I don't know off the top of my head the depth of the Gulf of Thailand is or the time window between loss of contact and SAR efforts undertaken. If she did go down over the water, it's plausible the wreckage sank or drifted far away from the search area. AF 447 was found in the middle of the Atlantic, so I believe it's a question of time before substantial evidence is found. 

This still sucks, and my heart goes out to the victims and the those they left behind.


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## Lucky13 (Mar 11, 2014)




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## Wayne Little (Mar 11, 2014)

In this day and age I tend to agree with you David....very strange...and very sad....


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## Torch (Mar 11, 2014)

Something out of a Bermuda triangle story,with all the satellites,radar, search vehicles etc not one clue yet...Unbelievable.Poor families


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## syscom3 (Mar 11, 2014)

I'd wait a few months before saying that the plane cannot be found. Its under water in the Gulf of Siam, and its only a matter of time before the blackboxes are heard.

The Gulf of Siam is also a lot shallower than the mid Atlantic where the Air France jet went down. Its only 260ft at its deepest, rather than 20,000 feet where AF came to rest. That makes it a lot easier to find.


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## bobbysocks (Mar 11, 2014)

it still amazes me about AF 447 that they didnt give out a mayday or even report a problem. granted in the midst of a crisis the pilot is more concerned with flying the plane...getting it under control but there were other crew on the flight deck and it took them several minutes to finally crash. to me it makes sense but yet it doesnt....if you arent familiar with the circumstances around 447 here's a tragic video. what is simular is there is no debris field ( not yet anyways )....its tragic and my thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lBUf4HbIa8_


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## razor1uk (Mar 11, 2014)

I think the circumstances suggest something to do with the airplane went wrong - little to wreckage would mean no explosion; otherwise debris would be spread far and wide mostly on the surface. ...horrendously hopefully it would seem to me that it dove in at speed, meaning any wreckage and debris is mostly all under water and the passengers and crew had little time to become as aware or reactive as I wouldn't wish to be if I was in such a situation myself. 

if it wasn't the (alleged) usual 'overworked' mid to near end of a part life Boeing tail/rudder control component failure, then perhaps the pressurisation/oxygen generation issue related.

Also the traffic controllers radar info you'd usually expect to be released are sketchy at best to non-existent; suggesting a partial news blackout/gag - the PRC and Boeing related influences have enough pull for that in my book of likely what ifs.

I hope all who suffered onboard knew nothing and that their families, friends and loved ones will be given the correct and actual reasons in as speedy and above board manner ASAP.

RIP all onboard.


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## Airframes (Mar 11, 2014)

I don't find it particularly strange or amazing - very sad, yes, and my heart goes out to those waiting to hear about their loved ones.
OK, it's wrong to speculate, but a sudden 'disappearance' like this, without any distress call or other communication, to me points to one of two things - onboard explosive terrorist action, or shot down.
A news photo yesterday showed what looked like an emergency exit hatch floating on the surface of the sea, so a possibility of catastrophic break up perhaps?


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## Vic Balshaw (Mar 11, 2014)

A very sad loss and sorrowful times for the families and friends of lost ones. But also a mystery, it is hard to think that mechanical failure would happen and we not hear something. Terrorism, a hostile act or some freak storm (it is rainy season up that way). Who knows, only time may tell and I just hope the Malaysian authorities and others push hard enough to find out.


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## Gnomey (Mar 11, 2014)

It's very sad that's for sure. I'm sure some evidence will be found like it was for AF-447 but it will just be a matter of time.


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## vikingBerserker (Mar 11, 2014)

They were talking today that the aircraft made a turn and flew for several hundred km after dropping off the radar. I can understand turning around in an emergency but for the crew to not radio a message strikes me as odd. 

Also curious about the two Iranians with stolen passports on board.


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## bobbysocks (Mar 12, 2014)

cnn had a pretty good article on this....


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAvN-QyPRtU_


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## razor1uk (Mar 12, 2014)

Just as likely as the two seconds vid above, is it going to be a Chinese 9/11 type fix up scenario, so they can claim some mear the crash sites islands for resources as their own in general revenge. ...Wasn't their a lot of Chinese killed in SE Asia in riots in Singapore not long ago?


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## syscom3 (Mar 12, 2014)

Flyboy needs to chime in on this. Aren't these "glass" cockpits designed that even if there were still a total electrical failure or computer crash; a few vital instruments will still operate because they are analog in design? And isn't the emergency communications system designed to be separate from the main radio system?


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## bobbysocks (Mar 12, 2014)

back around 2000 we had a couple aircraft divert to our airport due to crappy weather. after i got all the passengers off i rode along with the flight crew as they taxed the plane over to where we were going to park the plane until they got the green light to go. there wasnt anything in that cockpit that wasnt glass. the sensors or reading devices might have been mechanical ( like the pitot tubes, etc ) but they were displayed on a digital screen....and that was like i said 14 years ago or more.

and razor i dont trust the chinese either.....the bulk of the hacking of our financial systems, technical corporations, military, and intelligence agencies comes from universities ( or military installations) in china.


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## GrauGeist (Mar 12, 2014)

The Chinese just released an image taken by their satellites on Sunday of three objects floating in the vicinity of the last known radar contact/radio transmission. Over three days later they release this "finding" and there is now an oil platform worker who has just now decided to tell everyone he saw a "fireball" in the sky near where the aircraft was last known.

However, no wreckage, no fuel/oil slick and no signal from the black box (transmits for 30 days) has been confirmed found. Even Air France had debris floating in the vicinity and it broke up after it struck the water. Even if it was hit by an A2A or S2A missile, it would have left debris. Luggage, seat cushions, insulation, food water containers and body parts float.

Add to the mystery that several sources claim that several of the passenger's cellphones are still active (ringing when called) and the report of Malaysian AF radars tracking it moving to the west from it's last known location (heading towards the straits of Malacca).


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## razor1uk (Mar 13, 2014)

Perhaps a hijacking from the Quiger (spelling) Islamist natives or western China (old Shikang state) and the party are keeping the lid sealed..
Certainly the lack of usual info, enough typical debris yet found and some government or anothers offering concilation 'improve safety' like rhetoric implies... mexicans (sorry went top gear like then) *ahem* I mean Aliens did it if nothing else.


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## vikingBerserker (Mar 13, 2014)

This is just getting beyond being bizarre.


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## pbehn (Mar 13, 2014)

It must have been pretty catastrophic or people would have used their mobiles computers....all seems a bit strange...more than a bit strange....watch this space


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## Wurger (Mar 13, 2014)

If the passenger's cellphones are still active (ringing when called) why it is not able to track them ? If these work it means that have to be "in contact" with the nearest BTS. Unless these use satelites.


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## GrauGeist (Mar 13, 2014)

That's what I was wondering...if the cellphones are still active, then they should be able to get a fix on the phone's general location by way of the cellsites.

There's word this morning that a U.S. destroyer is moving into the Indian Ocean by way of the Straights of Malacca to search while the other U.S. destroyer remains in the vicinity searching with 11 other nations.

A couple of local officials were apparently upset that the U.S. destroyer is looking in that direction. My reaction to that is why would they be putting up such a complaint?

Hmmm....


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## syscom3 (Mar 13, 2014)

The ringing that people claim to be proof that they're still active, is just a local system generated tone sent back to the caller. It doesnt mean the other phone is ringing. Just that the cell system is sending a ring tone.

Don't confuse traditional land lines with high tech doohicky systems.


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## GrauGeist (Mar 13, 2014)

If my iPhone is on, it rings or if unanswered, it goes to voicemail. If I'm out of a service area, the phone's incoming call gets a message (I don't recall the message) after several rings and if it's powered off, it goes straight to voicemail.


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## gumbyk (Mar 13, 2014)

GrauGeist said:


> If my iPhone is on, it rings or if unanswered, it goes to voicemail. If I'm out of a service area, the phone's incoming call gets a message (I don't recall the message) after several rings and if it's powered off, it goes straight to voicemail.


That's in _your_ local system.
Roaming globally is different in different countries, just as the disconnected/ringing tones are.


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## GrauGeist (Mar 14, 2014)

Perhaps I should clarify here...

I am not suggesting that these cellphones are audibly ringing at the secret Nazi base in Antarctica.

I should have worded it a little better, but the intention was that cellphones ping-back to cellsites (when they are turned on, either active or asleep) and the cellprovider can track most modern phones to a certain area...not nessecarily pinpoint an exact location but at least have a general idea of where they may be (at their last known pingback/data packet tx/rx).

This may show if there was a deviation in their route or if all the phones ceased activity in a certain area, etc.


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## nuuumannn (Mar 14, 2014)

> Aren't these "glass" cockpits designed that even if there were still a total electrical failure or computer crash; a few vital instruments will still operate because they are analog in design?



Airliners do have conventional instruments that are analog for back up, (I think it's an FAA requirement) but it is extremely rare for glass cockpit instrumentation to fail. The EFIS (Electronic Flight Instrumentation System) works from the Air Data Computer, which receives data from the pitot static ports and the AoA vanes, of which modern airliners have more than one for redundancy. In case of failure of one of the ADCs, you can switch the instruments to read from the other; either Capt or F/O's side, designating one as a master and another as a slave, depending on which has failed. As for redundancies in comms, there are always more than one radio on board; even light aircraft are fitted with two VHF comm sets. Again, it's highly unlikely that both VHF radios are not going to work and even then, most airliners are also fitted with UHF sets, too. The fact that the transponder or ELT (Emergency Locator Transmitter) signals are not being picked up, or no longer transmitting suggests structural break-up.


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## Thorlifter (Mar 14, 2014)

IF the cell phones were actually still on, I'm sure the authorities long ago thought about triangulating the signal from the cell towers. With people saying the phones are still ringing is just offering the family members hope.
- If this airliner crashed or was destroyed over the ocean, it would most likely have been found by now so IMO, I don't think it did.
- If this airliner crashed in a mountain or thick forest region, it could take quite a while to find it since it will be hidden by the natural terrain.
- If this airliner was successfully landed at an air strip, it's being hidden by people who know how to disable all the signals from the black box and other devices.

Do you remember the Air France flight from 2009? While they found the wreckage in a few days, it took them 2 years to find the black boxes. Remember Steve Fossett's plane crash? It took them a month to find that wreckage. Yes, I know that was a small private plane and not a Boeing 777, but it's not always easy to locate the crash sites, especially in bad terrain.


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 14, 2014)

Can anyone clarify the claim that the RR Trent engines 'ping' out data by satellite, and had been operating for 4 hours as claimed. At a press conference yesterday the Malaysian spokesman claimed this was not true.


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## GrauGeist (Mar 15, 2014)

Here's the latest on flight MH370 by the Washington post...in the article, it addresses several points that we've been taking about 

Here?s how we know MH370 kept flying for hours


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## swampyankee (Mar 15, 2014)

The way I understand it, the engines send out performance-related data via the aircraft's satellite communication system. These data are not monitored in real-time, but are used for engine performance tracking, which is used to assist in scheduling inspections. 

Given that the black box recorders are so critical for accident reconstruction, and frequently quite difficult to find, I wonder if any serious thought is being given to requiring airliners to supplement the BBR with telemetry.


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## Gnomey (Mar 15, 2014)

Its just getting stranger the way I see it. Certainly seems that hijacking is top of the list but by whom and to where, you would of thought that somebody would of announced something if it was...


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## vikingBerserker (Mar 15, 2014)

They are now saying they think the pilot(s) now had something to do with it. Their homes were searched based on some new evidence.


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## swampyankee (Mar 15, 2014)

It seems very likely at least one of the pilots was involved: the airplane made some fairly complex maneuvers, which indicates at least some level of skill, and shutting down the communication systems was, according a 777-rated pilot who appeared on CNN, not obvious (he said he didn't know how to do it). The trouble is, what is the motivation for any kind of hijacking? Terrorists need publicity, like a dung beetle needs pooh, so if they hijacked the plane and killed everybody, they'd be bragging about it. Suicide? The Egyptair flight that went down due to a suicidal pilot did so quickly, without any maneuvering. North Korean sleeper agents? The guys running NK are crazy enough, and do have a history of killing people far from the Korean peninsula; Kim Jong-un certainly has the lack of moral fiber needed to try it, and he's certainly stupid enough, but I think that any NK sleeper agent smart enough to tie his own shoes would defect.


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## Ilyushin IL-2 Sturmovik (Mar 15, 2014)

Why have only a few navies and look in a few places but that idea with the satellites is quite intelligent. I don't know why they have not looked at a current map (not a map like now but of currents like the Gulf Stream) and see where that could had led to.


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## razor1uk (Mar 16, 2014)

Surely deactivating some of those systems would require more than a just a pilots skill? Perhaps a maintainer or some specialist with knowledge to got into the A/C electronics bay(s) locate the correct system modules/switches or have equipment to hack/rig the circuit boards without damaging the flight dynamics gubbins - assuming that I haven't been watching too many films, and there are actual cockpit switches for some of the deactivated things.

I'd thought that some of the tech of airliners are fairly classified, perhaps system layouts/designs would be generally unkown to the civil pilot.


To me tho', length of time to disclose some details in such a 'I/We don't know...' manner could mean a partial gag/blackout; that government(s) are under threat to keep a lid on things where possible to keep hostages alive.


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## The Basket (Mar 16, 2014)

Whole thing makes no sense.
must be very few airfields that can land a 777.
And the majority of those would notice a giant airliner landing unannounced. 

This is pure speculation and when there is no proof people just make it up


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## Wayne Little (Mar 16, 2014)

definitely makes no sense...


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 16, 2014)

"....must be very few airfields that can land a 777."

Remember this PLO 'masterpiece' ...?

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## The Basket (Mar 16, 2014)

Dawson Field did have a concrete runway and a hijacked 747 didnt land there due to size concerns.

I doubt the 777 has rough field capabilities. 

Where the aircraft is not exactly full of abandoned airfields and landing on the water is a poor choice but if this was planned then a landing zone was planned. Or why not simply crash the 777?


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## syscom3 (Mar 16, 2014)

swampyankee said:


> Terrorists need publicity



Sometimes, just doing the act and not garnering publicity accomplishes whatever goal they set for themselves.

Maybe this was just an old fashion hijacking for financial gain and not for a political statement.


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## swampyankee (Mar 16, 2014)

Then, too, there are full-blown psychotics who like to kill people for giggles. Usually they want kill to other people, not themselves.


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 16, 2014)

Political dissent fueled the pilot's mindset. Best explanation so far:

'Fanatical' missing Malaysia Airlines plane pilot pictured wearing political T-shirt | Mail Online


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## vikingBerserker (Mar 16, 2014)

Cripes......


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## pbehn (Mar 16, 2014)

silly season is declared

Could a four-year-old thriller unlock the mystery of flight MH370? ? Telegraph Blogs


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## gumbyk (Mar 16, 2014)

michaelmaltby said:


> Political dissent fueled the pilot's mindset. Best explanation so far:
> 
> 'Fanatical' missing Malaysia Airlines plane pilot pictured wearing political T-shirt | Mail Online



Fire and depressurisation is another possibility, albeit less fashionable...

Flying Lessons: Stepping Out of the Rush to Call Missing Airplane a Crime


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## GrauGeist (Mar 16, 2014)

I find it unlikely that it flew that far north, there's alot of military airspace in that direction and it would have shown up on their radar.


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## nuuumannn (Mar 17, 2014)

> The way I understand it, the engines send out performance-related data via the aircraft's satellite communication system. These data are not monitored in real-time, but are used for engine performance tracking, which is used to assist in scheduling inspections.



This is called ACARS, most big airliners have it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_Communications_Addressing_and_Reporting_System

As for cockpit voice recorders and so forth, these are still vital components and and might in future be capable of digital up link in real time, but data will most likely still be kept with the aircraft in hardware format. When you activate the anti collision beacon (red rotating light) on an airliner, the CVR kicks in automatically. On the ground, if you are advising people to keep back from the aircraft, say if you want to start up or do engine/APU runs, after a period of time it switches off.


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## bobbysocks (Mar 17, 2014)

it wouldnt be ther first time a member of the flight crew took a plane down intentionally. the absence of debris is what makes it extremely puzzling. either it is very well hidden or the plane was WAY off course and they are looking in completely the wrong area. or the dharma inititive was real.....


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## vikingBerserker (Mar 17, 2014)

I wonder if the 2 Iranians trying to defect had anything to do with it, such as some group not wanting them to defect.


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## nuuumannn (Mar 17, 2014)

I remember when the KAL 747 was shot down by the Soviets in 1987, there was never any wreckage or bodies recovered; the Soviets cleaned up the mess pretty comprehensively, going out in boats to pick up the debris. Wreckage from plane crashes moves great distances owning to the course of the water over time. When the Titanic sank, bodies and debris was washing up on the Canadian coast for months afterwards.


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## razor1uk (Mar 18, 2014)

The fact that so much is still unkown, even when some info aerial is collected in real time, still points to a serious **** up(s) between security, military, geopolitical radar coverage watching of those nations around Southern Asia.
It is possible it flew else where, and also the US's Missile Launch Detection System apparently has not detected any explosions in the South China Indian Seas/Oceans area.

The info coming at from all nations involved in the search is still very slow, so it is possible that really they don't know; as some of the countries around the coast of this area are least developed, most war torn or tecnologically restricted or they are political weight(s) reasonings behind keeping as much as possible behind a dam; either to suit their own ends, by terrorist request, to limit public reaction anger, and also the secret nature of some surveillance tecnologies that many countries might ave seen something with - let alone combing their individual recent data collections from those systems.

If it wasn't destroyed by some countries self defence missiles -because its transponders were off, and it didn't ditch in the water, then it must've landed somewhere, and the lack so far of a terrorist statement, could suggest a hostage for ransom/profit.


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## ozhawk40 (Mar 18, 2014)

Interesting theory!

Word is this is very plausible, but what do you think ?

Keith Ledgerwood ? Did Malaysian Airlines 370 disappear using SIA68/SQ68 (another 777)?


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## razor1uk (Mar 18, 2014)

I'd say this guy might have a point, it;'d explain the lack of usual info, the inabilities of all searching nations to gain knowledge, and how civilian radars traffic controllers could've been tricked.
...particularly the near end of article with Xingjian province, Kyrgyzstan, or Turkmenistan as possible destinations.

Shikang/Xingjian (Islamic) is a Chinese province; recently too, Chinese Xingjian have had armed confrontations, riots and islamist troubles. 
Russian controlled/co-opted dictatorial proxies of Kyrgyzstan, or Turkmenistan, absurdly out there I know, the Russians could be by proxy, getting ready to pressurise the Chinese to support them in there upcoming Western Border Plans, should the US try to bend China via existing business, economic and trade to sit on the fence or go against Putin in some way, as they have slowely in regards to Syria.


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## bobbysocks (Mar 18, 2014)

the engine "pings" are interesting. they are linked to satelittes and not connected to any other communication device. the engines ping when it is running. the location, direction, or alt cant be determined from this....it could have been at 30k or sitting on a runway. but that is a long time and can be a LOT of real estate to have to cover.

Shikang/Xingjian (Islamic extremists) iirc are responsible for a mass stabbing at a railway station where 29 people were killed and ~140 wounded. yep looked it up...

Who's Behind The Mass Stabbing In China? : Parallels : NPR

doesnt mean they are acters in this incident..but interesting just the same.


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## vikingBerserker (Mar 18, 2014)

I would think if it was a terrorist act somebody would have said something by now for the publicity.


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## bobbysocks (Mar 18, 2014)

oh boy the latest ( conspiracy ) theory was it was hijacked by an awacs aircraft....


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## razor1uk (Mar 18, 2014)

If thats true Bobbysocks, then the officials are grasping at more straws than we are, and smellier ones made of more poop too.


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## GrauGeist (Mar 18, 2014)

there's also a few "blogs" (do NOT get me started about those!) that are "reporting secret sources" informing them that the U.S. CIA has hijacked the flight and taken it to a "secret location"...

One of these alleged locations is a "secret interrogation" base at U-Tapao Thailand. This based was supposedly a location for secret B-52 mission during the Vietnam war and is still used by the CIA and NASA for secret missions (wait...what? NASA?) and is under the disguise as an international airport. According to their "secret sources", flight MH370 switched identities with a U.S. military cargo plane.

They go one to quote a "New York Times article" (no link or reference):


> One such place in Thailand is Utapao Air Base, 90 miles south of Bangkok. During the Vietnam War, Utapao was humming 24 hours a day as a base for B-52′s carrying out bombing raids over North Vietnam. Despite Thailand’s studied neutrality on the war in Iraq — one Thai foreign affairs official said during the war that the country had no position — Mr. Thaksin Shinawatra allowed Utapao to be used by American warplanes flying into combat in Iraq, as he had earlier, during the war in Afghanistan.
> 
> Utapao is also probably where Qaeda operatives have been interrogated, retired American intelligence officials said, explaining that the base had facilities for sophisticated interrogations.



They get a "first hand account by someone who wishes to be anonymous" regarding the activities there:


> “I live 2 miles from Utapao and have run into people in military green who act like they do not want to be seen. Twice in the nearby 7-11 they acted strange, refused to make eye contact and appeared unhappy to be recognized as Americans, they jumped into a VW Van with Bangkok plates and others and left quickly. Yes, something is going on there and has been for a while.
> 
> It’s difficult to describe this, but I left those encounters with the feeling something strange was happening.
> 
> No seriously, I don’t make stuff up like this; their behavior was really bizarre. When I run into the American Navy people here during the joint Thai/American exercises they usually are very friendly, outgoing and surprised to see an American in a Thai teachers uniform and want information on the best places to go and how to get there. I’ve even driven some of them to Pattaya over the past few years. But these guys were completely different. I probably should not have mentioned this at all, but the behavior was so strange It’s difficult to forget."



They go on for quite some time about the flight being escorted by E-3 AWACS to hide the flight and then drones and on and on and on...

The ONLY thing they did not mention, was the secret Nazi base in the Antarctic.

I was actually getting a good laugh out of the whole thing, but this morning, the page is gone.


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## waterman (Mar 18, 2014)

US involvement is interesting. Especially considering the documentary that is out on TWA Flight 800.

Filmmaker asserts new evidence on crash of TWA Flight 800 - CNN.com
The Missiles That Brought Down TWA Flight 800 Washington's Blog


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## bobbysocks (Mar 18, 2014)

and i dont believe that Elvis is dead either......

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## Airframes (Mar 18, 2014)

Well, he did a gig in a back-street pub down the road from me last Saturday..........


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## The Basket (Mar 18, 2014)

45,000 feet?
Wow. High. 
Probably fire in the cockpit.
Hit the ocean trans sonic speeds.
My best guess.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Mar 19, 2014)

This is an ignorant question, but does anyone know the pinging range for the CVR and FDR? I know they have a 30 day battery life, but I don't know the range.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 19, 2014)

waterman said:


> US involvement is interesting. Especially considering the documentary that is out on TWA Flight 800.
> 
> Filmmaker asserts new evidence on crash of TWA Flight 800 - CNN.com
> The Missiles That Brought Down TWA Flight 800 Washington's Blog




Yea, Pierre Salinger also said a Harpoon missile fired from a P-3 brought down flight 800. I worked on P-3s and this was utter nonsense bordering on stupidity. It's amazing how easily a conspiracy story shifts gears when one calls out the BS, at that point you see imbeciles grasp on to anything so their integrity could be sustained.

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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 19, 2014)

Vassili Zaitzev said:


> This is an ignorant question, but does anyone know the pinging range for the CVR and FDR? I know they have a 30 day battery life, but I don't know the range.



I believe 2 miles


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Mar 19, 2014)

FLYBOYJ said:


> I believe 2 miles



Thanks FBJ(Joe if you prefer). If it did go down in the Indian Ocean, the range of the FDR/CVR would be outpaced by the depth of the ocean.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 19, 2014)

Vassili Zaitzev said:


> Thanks FBJ(Joe if you prefer). If it did go down in the Indian Ocean, the range of the FDR/CVR would be outpaced by the depth of the ocean.



Yep! That's what's making this so much harder.


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## GrauGeist (Mar 19, 2014)

A new twist to the situation, they've found that the Pilot had recently erased files from his flight simulator.

It may simply mean he was just freeing up storage space or it could go a little deeper than that, but for the moment, they aren't sure.

Files deleted from Malaysian pilot?s simulator | New York Post


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## razor1uk (Mar 19, 2014)

If it managed to land somewhere, my guts (that often can be ripe, *ahem*) say islamist eastern mid africa; e.g. Somalia or Xinkiang, ..and boy have they been nasally complaining recently.

BBc R4 around 10am GMT said 'an aircraft was seen to fly low over the Maldives', no time, aero size/type or who by was given.

some of the relatives of the missing are starting to get violent through percieved inaction the possible web of inept(ness) (lack of)information.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Mar 19, 2014)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Yep! That's what's making this so much harder.



I still have confidence that something will be found, though it may take weeks, months, or years. Honestly, I can not believe the theory that is being pushed by the media, of a deliberate takeover or action by the pilots. I was reading this article about a different theory. 
A Startlingly Simple Theory About the Missing Malaysia Airlines Jet | Autopia | Wired.com

Make what you will of it. Commentators have already attacked it.


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## syscom3 (Mar 19, 2014)

razor1uk said:


> ...
> BBc R4 ....



What the heck is that?


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## razor1uk (Mar 19, 2014)

Well this with the Keith Ledgerwood theory, are so far amongst the best of the good possibilities if the Maldives low level doesn't check out. I quickly looked at the comments on that page, mostly seemed to be 'media hype' only sheeps ranters. Apparently the Daily Star reckons Courtney Love's solved it if it weren't a hostage or terrorist.

BBC R4 would be (BBC) Radio 4 Syscom3


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## GrauGeist (Mar 19, 2014)

Just read a good article on the subject by a pilot:

A Startlingly Simple Theory About the Missing Malaysia Airlines Jet | Autopia | Wired.com


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## razor1uk (Mar 19, 2014)

Thats the same as Vassily Zietzevs link above my previous post GG,


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## bobbysocks (Mar 19, 2014)

sounds feasable. but Joe didnt they start putting smoke/fire detectors in the wheel wells after one brought down that concord? the concord ran over some FOD ( foreign object damage) as it was rolling on the runway for take off that punctured the tire...which then overheated and caught fire. i thought they did or perhaps it was proposed and never enacted. i know they have smoke/fire detectors and even supression systems in the cargo holds because of the valu-jet flight that went down in the swamps due to a box of old oxy generators catching fire.


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## razor1uk (Mar 19, 2014)

Nothing to do wit Concorde, that was a bit of another airfrance plane that punctured the wing after the main wheels 'pinged' it through the skins AFIAK.


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## GrauGeist (Mar 19, 2014)

razor1uk said:


> Thats the same as Vassily Zietzevs link above my previous post GG,


Well dang...how did I miss that one?

No matter, though...the guy makes alot of sense. Probably the only one out there that has, so far...

And if I'm not mistaken, the debris that brought down the Concorde was allegedly from a Continental Airlines DC-10, which punctured the Concorde's tire, in turn hurling debris into and puncturing, the fuel tank.


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## bobbysocks (Mar 19, 2014)

yeah you are right...there was a fuel tank rupture.


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## syscom3 (Mar 19, 2014)

A smoldering fire would have been detected long before it became a conflagration. Plenty of time to shout a warning.

A quickly spreading fire would still be detected in enough time for a crewman to shout an SOS on the radio.

And why would the pilot turn around in an in fight emergency to go to Langkawi when Ho Chi Mihn City (and a couple other strips that could be used in an emergency) is closer? 

This scenario just doesnt pan out.


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 19, 2014)

"...Ongoing speculation of a hijacking and/or murder-suicide and that there was a flight engineer on board does not sway me in favor of foul play until I am presented with evidence of foul play...."

Let's see what the FBI can recover from the pilot's home-built, hard-drive erased, flight simulator. What did he practice ....?


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## vikingBerserker (Mar 19, 2014)

The things that makes me think it was not a sudden explosion was the gradual shut down of systems.


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## gumbyk (Mar 19, 2014)

vikingBerserker said:


> The things that makes me think it was not a sudden explosion was the gradual shut down of systems.



That's the same thing that has me thinking against the pilot shutting them all down. It doesn't take too long to manually shut down all the radios


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## The Basket (Mar 20, 2014)

Seems as though wreckage has been found off the coast off Australia. 
Which means it flew until ran out of fuel and crashed.
So that would point to crew and passengers unconscious but aircraft flying on its own.
Gets odder and odder.


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## vikingBerserker (Mar 20, 2014)

Well that has happened before. It is getting odder and odder.


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## N4521U (Mar 20, 2014)

Isn't an odder a water mammal?


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## razor1uk (Mar 20, 2014)

He was more likely to be a WW2 sim fan - the Il2 community has a quite a few persons from around that area - also he could have had some airline sims, to learn new routes and airports more than anything dodgy.

The undercarrage related smoldering electrical fire knocking things out as it burns the insulation oxidises the wiring to further shorts, seems to jump to the fore more so now...


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## Gnomey (Mar 20, 2014)

Yeah, it seems a logical explanation but I guess we still have to just wait and see...


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## parsifal (Mar 20, 2014)

might have found wreckage in the far south of the Indian Ocean. Ships and LR aircraft are trying to confirm at this moment


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## Shinpachi (Mar 21, 2014)

Even if it was wrong identification, looks great discovery and contribution for the future hope by Australia.
Well done!


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## Torch (Mar 21, 2014)

Tough mission for the pilots,8hr flight plus 2hr search window,hopefully weather does not play too much of a role in their mission and they get back home safe..


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## parsifal (Mar 21, 2014)

nothing found after two days. Does not look good


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## bobbysocks (Mar 23, 2014)

latest theory is the pilots took the plane to a taliban controlled area of pakistan. the purpose? paint it up in different colors..load it with explosives and pull off another 9/11 attack. isreal is beefing up air security and closely scrutinizing all commercial flights in and out of the country. not saying i believe it but it isnt as far fetched as it is possible.


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## The Basket (Mar 23, 2014)

That far fetched.
could do with a vampire in that story though.


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## fubar57 (Mar 23, 2014)

bobbysocks said:


> latest theory is the pilots took the plane to a taliban controlled area of pakistan. the purpose? paint it up in different colors..load it with explosives and pull off another 9/11 attack. isreal is beefing up air security and closely scrutinizing all commercial flights in and out of the country. not saying i believe it but it isnt as far fetched as it is possible.



Would the jet have the range as I thought that commercial flights were fueled according to their final destination.

Geo


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## tyrodtom (Mar 23, 2014)

fubar57 said:


> Would the jet have the range as I thought that commercial flights were fueled according to their final destination.
> 
> Geo


 They don't fuel them with exactly what they need, they have a little extra for weather diversions, and always there's some reserve.

The nearest Pakistan territory is no farther away than Beijing, but with all the problems between India and Pakistan, you wouldn't think any big aircraft could fly over that area undetected. 
Plus how many remote airfields could handle a 400,000 lbs. aircraft ?


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Mar 23, 2014)

Honestly, I can't believe the theories put forth by the major media outlets. I shouldn't be blind to possible theories, but I have seen nothing that would indicate a reason for the pilots to deliberately fly the plane as suggested by the radar.


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## bobbysocks (Mar 23, 2014)

actually pakistan supposedly has a lot of runways that can handle that size plane.....and flying over india could be cloaked or shadowed by another commercial flight. like i said it is an interesting theory and not out of the realm of possibility but i am not ready to start digging a fallout shelter yet....here's some sources on the subject.

Former USAF general says US govt knows missing Malaysian plane is in Pakistan |

Malaysia Hunts for Missing Jet in Pakistan Israel Preps for Attack-

Lt. Gen. McInerney: Flight 370 Could Have Landed in Pakistan | Fox News Insider


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 23, 2014)

You just don't take a plane the size of a 777 and re-paint it - even if you want to use it for a one way trip. There are weight and balance considerations and I doubt you'll find anyone dumb enough to try to fly the aircraft from a take off to attack a target on a suicide mission if the aircraft was re-painted with "brush and rollers." You'll need ground support equipment, tow bars, tugs, etc. Above 18,000 feet you're in class "A" airspace and unless you're on a flight plan you're going to become an immediate bogey. 911 was a better plan....


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## Marcel (Mar 24, 2014)

In the dutch news was that a Chinese plane possibly found wreckage in the south indian Ocean, aproximately where satelites earlier found floating objects. Also the pilot seems to have been practicing dificult landings on islands in that area on his flightsimultator at home.


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## bobbysocks (Mar 24, 2014)

according to cnn it has been determined it went down in the southern indian ocean....although no debris has been found or recoverd yet. ??

Flight 370 passenger's relative: 'All lives are lost' - CNN.com


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## bobbysocks (Mar 24, 2014)

FLYBOYJ said:


> You just don't take a plane the size of a 777 and re-paint it - even if you want to use it for a one way trip. There are weight and balance considerations and I doubt you'll find anyone dumb enough to try to fly the aircraft from a take off to attack a target on a suicide mission if the aircraft was re-painted with "brush and rollers." You'll need ground support equipment, tow bars, tugs, etc. Above 18,000 feet you're in class "A" airspace and unless you're on a flight plan you're going to become an immediate bogey. 911 was a better plan....



i trust your assessment but i also know when USAir became USAirways they come up with a new paint scheme ( basically the reverse of the united colors as wolf was trying to work that merge back then). the first ones ( 737s...DC8s..and F100s ) were sent to texas. they were scuffed and sprayed and came back looking really nice. but when it got close to the deadline they were painting them with rollers in the hangars....and it looked like it. far away it was presentable but close up not so good. the mechanic i talked with told me how much weight it added ( i have since deleted that infromation from my brain ). they went from the white with stripes to navy blue and gray....and i was told since the whole plane was painted the CG didnt change much but the load that could be added did by "X" number of pounds.


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## The Basket (Mar 24, 2014)

bobbysocks said:


> according to cnn it has been determined it went down in the southern indian ocean....although no debris l]



More evidence than the aircraft is in Pakistan


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## Marcel (Mar 24, 2014)

This provides more insights:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/inmarsat-missing-flight-mh370-tracked-162708166.html#3Ni3CU9


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## fubar57 (Mar 24, 2014)

From CBC minutes ago Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 'ended' in southern Indian Ocean, PM says - World - CBC News

Geo


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 24, 2014)

bobbysocks said:


> i trust your assessment but i also know when USAir became USAirways they come up with a new paint scheme ( basically the reverse of the united colors as wolf was trying to work that merge back then). the first ones ( 737s...DC8s..and F100s ) were sent to texas. they were scuffed and sprayed and came back looking really nice. but when it got close to the deadline they were painting them with rollers in the hangars....and it looked like it. far away it was presentable but close up not so good. the mechanic i talked with told me how much weight it added ( i have since deleted that infromation from my brain ). they went from the white with stripes to navy blue and gray....and *i was told since the whole plane was painted the CG didnt change much but the load that could be added did by "X" number of pounds.*



I question that - I worked DC-9s and B727s that were painted and depending what you were doing you would have some significant changes in CG when fully loaded. As you mentioned when you paint a large aircraft with rollers, it shows when you're up close to it.

I guess this is all hangar talk now as it seems portions of the aircraft are slowly being spotted.


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## The Basket (Mar 25, 2014)

I do find it awful that the Internet can be used to spread the most insane conspiracy theories without even the merest shread of proof.
Yes...even today...no wreckage has been id and so it is all speculation. 
How a modern airliner can fly so far off course is unusual to say the least.
Even using facts we have only add to a bizarre story.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Mar 25, 2014)

A dumb question, but where can I find information regarding the procedures of Malaysian airlines pilots? I've been speculating with some friends, but I don't want to fall into the trap of judging the possible actions by the wrong standards. I know little of the airlines safety record, policies, or how the pilots have been trained to react to emergencies. I know a little with US carriers, but not Malaysian.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 25, 2014)

The Basket said:


> I do find it awful that the Internet can be used to spread the most insane conspiracy theories without even the merest shread of proof.
> Yes...even today...*no wreckage has been id *and so it is all speculation.
> How a modern airliner can fly so far off course is unusual to say the least.
> Even using facts we have only add to a bizarre story.


_PERTH, Australia – The hunt for crashed Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 will resume later Tuesday after rolling seas, gale force winds and heavy rain forced the search to be suspended, authorities said.

Winds of up to 50 mph and a cloud ceiling as low as 200ft made conditions in the remote corner of the southern Indian Ocean too hazardous to allow planes and ships to search for possible debris. Weather in the zone where debris was spotted - some 1,500 miles southwest of the coast of Australia - is expected to improve, the Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) said in a statement_ MH370: Debris Search to Resume Later Tuesday - NBC News

Although this "debris" has yet to be identified to the missing aircraft, I'd bet dollars to donuts its from the wreck. I'm also confident the black boxes will be found.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 25, 2014)

Vassili Zaitzev said:


> A dumb question, but where can I find information regarding the procedures of Malaysian airlines pilots? I've been speculating with some friends, but I don't want to fall into the trap of judging the possible actions by the wrong standards. I know little of the airlines safety record, policies, or how the pilots have been trained to react to emergencies. I know a little with US carriers, but not Malaysian.



You're probably going to find that Malaysian airline pilots were trained to the same standards as any western nation. You could start here...

http://www.dca.gov.my/


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## GrauGeist (Mar 25, 2014)

FLYBOYJ said:


> ...Although this "debris" has yet to be identified to the missing aircraft, I'd bet dollars to donuts its from the wreck. *I'm also confident the black boxes will be found*.


They had a bit on the news this morning about the U.S. bringing in equipment that will aid in locating it. They said it should be onsite in about two weeks. The reaction to this news by some of the victim's relatives was anger because the U.S. should have done this sooner.

I feel bad for the crew and passengers of MH370, but it made me a little mad when I was hearing some of those people yelling and throwing water bottles at the reps because the U.S. wasn't there right away.


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## bobbysocks (Mar 25, 2014)

now the big question is why? and who? if it was close to land i can maybe see that they had some sort of trouble and were trying to work through it. being all the way out in the middle of the ocean looks like the pilot(s) had this planned or someone else did. since no one ( at least that we know of through open source information ) claimed responsibility looks more like a "lone wolf" action.


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## pbehn (Mar 25, 2014)

Hope they find the black boxes. I dunno about the images though, have they done a check on a random area of ocean, the sea is full of junk anything could look like something from a plane.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 25, 2014)

bobbysocks said:


> now the big question is why? and who? if it was close to land i can maybe see that they had some sort of trouble and were trying to work through it. being all the way out in the middle of the ocean looks like the pilot(s) had this planned or someone else did. since no one ( at least that we know of through open source information ) claimed responsibility looks more like a "lone wolf" action.



Dont rule out mechanical failure yet. The aircraft went from cruising altitude to 12K, something that would be done as emergency SOP.

http://news.yahoo.com/pilots-tried-save-mh370-193000845--politics.html

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## GregP (Mar 25, 2014)

The people who got mad at the USA for not being there sooner are so far off base it isn't funny. The ocean is a BIG place and the equipment is not cheap. Why send it to some point until you think that the plane may BE there? Who is going to pay for THAT? The victim's families? Yeah, right. Malayasia? They might when they have a clue about where the plane is, but nobody wants to pay to search the entire ocean area.

The USA is sitting on a lot of debt. Why should WE rush to search the oceans all by ourselves? Naturally, we aren't and many people and nations are doing what they can to find the plane, but the ocean is a BIG place as stated above.

I'm sure that once we KNOW something about the location, the search will move into the short strokes of finding it.

The Titanic sank in 1912 and wasn't found until 1985. This plane is MUCH smaller and, if you turn off the communications, isn't any better able to be located unless some lucky shot from a satellite happens to show it. If they were broadcasting a mayday, that would be different and it would already have been found.

But I have to believe that if the crew of a Boeing 777 wanted to communicate with anyone, they COULD.

This incident shows that it might be wise to put GPS information into the engine monitoring system for just such cases as this one, even if they insert it only every 5 minutes or so ... or whatever time they think will result in an acceptably short search.


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## gumbyk (Mar 25, 2014)

GregP said:


> The USA is sitting on a lot of debt. Why should WE rush to search the oceans all by ourselves? Naturally, we aren't and many people and nations are doing what they can to find the plane, but the ocean is a BIG place as stated above.



You're not. What the American media must have forgotten to state is that the Chinese are also sending equipment and ships to the region.


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## gumbyk (Mar 25, 2014)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Although this "debris" has yet to be identified to the missing aircraft, I'd bet dollars to donuts its from the wreck. I'm also confident the black boxes will be found.



I'm not too confident they will. There isn't much battery life left in the 'pingers', and they could be 4 miles under water.

I hope they get lucky and I'm proven wrong, though...


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## gumbyk (Mar 25, 2014)

Vassili Zaitzev said:


> A dumb question, but where can I find information regarding the procedures of Malaysian airlines pilots? I've been speculating with some friends, but I don't want to fall into the trap of judging the possible actions by the wrong standards. I know little of the airlines safety record, policies, or how the pilots have been trained to react to emergencies. I know a little with US carriers, but not Malaysian.



I doubt you'd find any specifics. That sort of stuff is usually proprietary information. The link FlyboyJ gave would be about the best place to start to get some idea.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Mar 25, 2014)

FLYBOYJ said:


> You're probably going to find that Malaysian airline pilots were trained to the same standards as any western nation. You could start here...
> 
> http://www.dca.gov.my/



Thanks.


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## bobbysocks (Mar 25, 2014)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Dont rule out mechanical failure yet. The aircraft went from cruising altitude to 12K, something that would be done as emergency SOP.
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/pilots-tried-save-mh370-193000845--politics.html




i dont rule anything out....the likely scenarios narrow in scope but with the absence of concrete information its going to be hard to determine exactly what transpired. the flight crew and passengers could have been incapatictated ( by accident or deliberate ) and the plane kept flying on like the payne stewart incident...or...or ..or...


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## The Basket (Mar 26, 2014)

If the transponders were turned off then unlikely accidental.
As aviation 'experts' we should be wary of making uneducated guesses and sticking to the facts.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 26, 2014)

The Basket said:


> If the transponders were turned off then unlikely accidental.
> As aviation 'experts' we should be wary of making uneducated guesses and sticking to the facts.



We don't know if the transponders were turned off or failed, it's just funny that everything went to hell right after their last RT.

Some of these guesses are far from uneducated. Their flight path and altitude decent is consistant with a crew dealing with an emergency - FACT. There is debris being spotted in an area that has a high probability of their LKP - FACT. The current criminal investigation has revealed nothing fishy about the crew - FACT. No terrorist organization has taken cred for this - FACT. And as I write this....

http://news.yahoo.com/satellite-spots-122-objects-malaysia-jet-search-113841013--finance.html


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 26, 2014)

".....revealed nothing fishy about the crew"

The Malaysian gov't has demonstrated incompetence from the outset of this tragedy .... and has a history of 'suppressing' the country's legitimate political opposition. FACT. The leader of the opposition was found guilty of buggery the morning of the flight. FACT. The pilot was in attendance at that trial, that morning, before his flight.

That is not _fishy_, but it's very sad. If the pilot sacrificed his aircraft and trusting passengers for political ends it is very, very troubling. If this is the case, the pilot, by his actions, has exposed the current Malaysian gov't to the scrutiny of the world.

No doubt, his very intention.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 26, 2014)

michaelmaltby said:


> ".....revealed nothing fishy about the crew"
> 
> The Malaysian gov't has demonstrated incompetence from the outset of this tragedy .... and has a history of 'suppressing' the country's legitimate political opposition. FACT. The leader of the opposition was found guilty of buggery the morning of the flight. FACT. The pilot was in attendance at that trial, that morning, before his flight.
> 
> ...



I doubt this 18,000 hour pilot would do this considering most of his passengers were Chinese, and he knew this. If he wanted to make a political statement, he could have done it right at take off with a spectacular crash for the whole world to see. I don't buy this at all!


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 26, 2014)

"... I don't buy this at all!"

Then we agree to disagree. Time will tell all.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 26, 2014)

And he also made a You Tube clip about making air conditioners more efficent. 


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm-ZmdwB7wk_


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## davparlr (Mar 26, 2014)

Just saw a picture on TV of a guy looking out the window of a P-3 as they were searching for the plane. The engine was visible and the prop was stopped and feathered. I would guess it is normal to shut down an engine (or two?) to increase endurance. Any P-3 experts out there?


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 26, 2014)

davparlr said:


> Just saw a picture on TV of a guy looking out the window of a P-3 as they were searching for the plane. The engine was visible and the prop was stopped and feathered. I would guess it is normal to shut down an engine (or two?) to increase endurance. Any P-3 experts out there?



SOP on P-3s. They'll cruise to the patrol area on 4 engines and patrol on 2 to save fuel.


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## pbehn (Mar 26, 2014)

There was something today about it being tracked at 43,000 feet ten another that it descended to 12,000 feet, I hope they get the recorders to solve it.


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## davparlr (Mar 26, 2014)

Here's pix of the TV. Sorry the tv is old raster. If it was digital the pix would be good.


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## The Basket (Mar 26, 2014)

FLYBOYJ said:


> We don't know if the transponders were turned off or failed, it's just funny that everything went to hell right after their last RT.
> 
> Some of these guesses are far from uneducated. Their flight path and altitude decent is consistant with a crew dealing with an emergency - FACT. There is debris being spotted in an area that has a high probability of their LKP - FACT. The current criminal investigation has revealed nothing fishy about the crew - FACT. No terrorist organization has taken cred for this - FACT. And as I write this....
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/satellite-spots-122-objects-malaysia-jet-search-113841013--finance.html



What facts? The info In the public domain? We only know what they tell us.


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## GrauGeist (Mar 26, 2014)

Perhaps they should search the secret Nazi base in Antarctica.

Word on the street is, that there's all sorts of missing stuff there...

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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 26, 2014)

The Basket said:


> What facts? The info In the public domain? We only know what they tell us.



Thats right - verifiable by two or three different news sources and the people actually looking for the wreckage (RAAF, USN).


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## gumbyk (Mar 26, 2014)

Even their vertical flight profile is doubtful. It all comes from primary radar, which is not designed to give altitude information, and gets more unreliable at greater distances, and with unfavourable atmospheric conditions.


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## vikingBerserker (Mar 26, 2014)

FLYBOYJ said:


> SOP on P-3s. They'll cruise to the patrol area on 4 engines and patrol on 2 to save fuel.



Never knew that, excellent info Joe!

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## GrauGeist (Mar 26, 2014)

If you look at the WP-3D hurricane hunters, they'll be seen with their inboards feathered on occasion.


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## The Basket (Mar 26, 2014)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Thats right - verifiable by two or three different news sources and the people actually looking for the wreckage (RAAF, USN).



Incorrect. No proof yet other than flotsam.
Remember this is a criminal case/ suicide/ political/ judicial/ embarrassing/ plenty of blame so first rule is to be very quiet and give nothing away


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 26, 2014)

The Basket said:


> Incorrect.* No proof yet other than flotsam.*Remember this is a criminal case/ suicide/ political/ judicial/ embarrassing/ plenty of blame so first rule is to be very quiet and give nothing away



I give you that but although we know there's tons of junk in the water this has been the biggest clue yet and will probably pan out due to its proximity to the calculated LKP. The news here says the pilot's computer checked out clean.


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## davparlr (Mar 26, 2014)

What ever happened to Global Air Traffic Management (GATM), a GPS navigation system the deletes the requirement for ground radar. If it was implemented we would have had better positioning data until it would have been shut down.

My recommendation and possible results of this would be implement GATM and install emergency GPS based beacon that would activate and broadcast position when power is removed from GATM system. This would have solved this problem and would also track any hijacked plane. I don't think it would be too expensive since most aircraft already have GPS and should be compatible with GATM. How much could a GPS based emergency beacon cost. Many cars have this capability. How expensive has it been to try to find this plane and I do think finding the plane is vitally important.


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## parsifal (Mar 26, 2014)

There are now 126 individual items identified by satellite and about 10 that have been sited by aircraft. Bo items are as yet recovered, however. The weather is terrible and closing in, making spotting from ships difficult, let alone recovery.

9 aircraft now involved in the search including those amazing P-8 Poseidon aircraft from the US. The chinese have also provided a number of IL-76 aircraft which are producing some pretty good results.

Time is starting to run out. 11 days before the black box runs out of battery. towed array sonar and echo location and listening gear is being fitted to a ship today and will move to the area in the next few days. They need to pinpoint the location most likley where the a/c crashed and that is not yet achieved. 

its a bad business, and odds are long


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## gumbyk (Mar 26, 2014)

Who is going to make this mandatory?

Can you imagine the outcry if someone tried to tell the US Government what to do?

At this level, _everything _is political, unfortunately.


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## davparlr (Mar 26, 2014)

gumbyk said:


> Who is going to make this mandatory?
> 
> Can you imagine the outcry if someone tried to tell the US Government what to do?
> 
> At this level, _everything _is political, unfortunately.



Actually, this is one area where there is a lot of international agreement. Already GATM has been approved. An added emergency beacon could also be relatively easy to approve. Once approved by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), countries could disagree but then they wouldn't be allowed to fly on commercial routes.


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## gumbyk (Mar 27, 2014)

A lot of 406 MHz ELT's come with GPS location information broadcasting already. 

The 406 MHz signal is picked up by satellites, and Search and Rescue action is initiated. ELT's have an independent power supply, and cannot be switched off. 

You'd think that something as simple as this would be mandatory? In many countries (including the USA) its not. Hence my scepticism about this. I definitely think its a good idea, but one that will have to fight its way through the politics of it all.


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## parsifal (Mar 27, 2014)

A Thai source today published photos showing an additional 100 or so pieces of debris about 200 Km west of where the French satellite found debris. The debris appears to be different, as much of it is a different colour and shape to those shown from the french source. The Thai satellite images are the clearest so far published.

Aircraft were recalled and grounded for about 9 hours last night aas the weather closed in and got really bad. Searches re-commenced from first light this morning. Main efforts are now being directed to trying to gather data for the estimated position of the black box, though the ships are still working on recovery of debris. The sonar equipped ship will be ready in a day or so.

Im beginning to have doubts that the flight recorder will be located. Time is short and the search area enormous. We may never know what caused this.....


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## GrauGeist (Mar 28, 2014)

I know the familes are in anguish over thier missing loved ones, but I don't think they understand nor appreciate what the search parties are going through, to find the downed aircraft.

Just watched a video taken aboard an Australian ship that's searching an area of the Indian Ocean. Perhaps if some of the angry relatives were to be aboard, they would have a little better understanding of why it's been so difficult...



_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrq0zWacnyY_


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## parsifal (Mar 28, 2014)

Thats very rough, and seeing debris in those conditions would be just about impossible


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## GrauGeist (Mar 28, 2014)

parsifal said:


> Thats very rough, and seeing debris in those conditions would be just about impossible


So would keeping your lunch down!

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## parsifal (Mar 29, 2014)

ive been in those sorts of conditions more than once or five times. You get used to it. Biggest issue is making sure everything is tied down and secure. Getting hit in the head with a piece of flying sextant or telescope can be very painful


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## Torch (Mar 29, 2014)

Yeesh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Alex . (Mar 29, 2014)

BBC News just reported this; 


> The search for ‪#‎MH370‬ has concluded for the day.
> Authorities say that a Chinese and an Australian ship "reported they have retrieved a number of objects from the ocean but so far no objects confirmed to be related to MH370 have been recovered".


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## The Basket (Mar 30, 2014)

I wonder if the aircraft will ever be found.


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## parsifal (Mar 30, 2014)

Its looking increasingly unlikley though the RAAF reported tagging and marking yet more debris. Conditions have eased, so recovery of some debris should be able to start soon.

The towed array still has not left port and will need 3 to days sailing time to get into position. Its needle in a hay stack stuff, becqause the ship needs a more precise position than is currently available. There is no signs yet that such pin pointing of the point of impact has been found, or might be found anytime soon. 

Water depth of the best guess position is at least 4km. Thats a lot of water depth.

It may well take years to find the black box, if ever. It took 70 years to find the Sydney, in half that water depth


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## Shinpachi (Mar 30, 2014)

What I am much impressed above all this time is the great contribution of Australia with cool analysis and indomitable efforts for search.

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## gumbyk (Apr 3, 2014)

davparlr said:


> Actually, this is one area where there is a lot of international agreement. Already GATM has been approved. An added emergency beacon could also be relatively easy to approve. Once approved by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), countries could disagree but then they wouldn't be allowed to fly on commercial routes.



Even the EU, with its supposed regional cohesiveness, is struggling with a regional Air Traffic Management System.
Air traffic management and geology - Learmount

Agreement on the principle, and agreement on the practical are very different things.


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## Marcel (Apr 7, 2014)

Any thoughts on the signals being picked up by the Australian vessel? Seemingly the signal was heared for 2.5 hours and later another 13 minutes, when it appeared to be 2 signals, which would be consistent with the 2 boxes on board. Would be a miracle if they have realy found it I think.


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## Gnomey (Apr 7, 2014)

It would indeed but it is certainly being given some credence. British ship joining the Australian one in the next few days to follow it up.


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## parsifal (Apr 8, 2014)

Its a promising development, but as Angus Houston has repeatedly stated, it aint over till the fat lady sings. The location of the Chinese and Australian ping signals is nearly 600km, and disturbingly, there still is no sign of any wreckage recovered. Houston is openly concerned about that.

We are not there yet, but if there is to be an early breakthrough in this search, we will know within the next 7-10 days.


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## Marcel (Apr 9, 2014)

They found the signal again for some time. They must be close, is it not? The range of such a device is not that big. If this really is MH370, the Australians have pulled off a miracle. Let's keep the fingers crossed.


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## parsifal (Apr 9, 2014)

yep, HMA Ocean Shield located signals consistent with flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder within two kilometres of each other yesterday. Depth was approximately 4.2 Km according to one source that i have contact with. Looks like the chinese report was bogus, but still too early to say for sure. Houston obviously thinks so, because he has decided to throw everything we have at the two Aussie Ping locations. 

I hope hes made the right call. Hes a brilliant officer and one of the most decent human beings i know. His impending retirement would be really soured if he makes the wrong choices.


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## gumbyk (Apr 10, 2014)

parsifal said:


> Looks like the chinese report was bogus, but still too early to say for sure. Houston obviously thinks so, because he has decided to throw everything we have at the two Aussie Ping locations.



Not necessarily. Sound does some weird things under water. Temperature inversion layers, density changes, and a whole load of other stuff can cause sounds to travel a long way, and appear to come from different directions.


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## parsifal (Apr 10, 2014)

yes thats true, but the separation is nearly 600 km....makes it hard to believe that cho sound locations could travel that far from the same source. 

new development. RAAF P3s apparently picked up another series of signals near to those detected by the ship borne locating device the other day.

The bad news is that the ocean floor at that location is heavy silt. The wreckage may already have sunk into the silt layer and no longer be visible. i wonder if this whole excercise can get any more difficult.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Apr 10, 2014)

Was is sonar or a metallic detection device used to locate Air France 447? I can't remember. How deep can they penetrate silt?


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## nuuumannn (Apr 11, 2014)

Here's what the pings are from: 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wshyX6Hw52I_

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## Elmas (Apr 12, 2014)

I can’t believe that with such a number of aircrafts, ships, satellites frantically searching, not a single piece of floating debris has been found.... and I think that a Boeing 777 cannot be transformed so easily in a submarine.....


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## GrauGeist (Apr 12, 2014)

Elmas said:


> I can’t believe that with such a number of aircrafts, ships, satellites frantically searching, not a single piece of floating debris has been found.... and I think that a Boeing 777 cannot be transformed so easily in a submarine.....


But remember, they were looking for a while in a completely different area.

Plus, the area where they are looking now has had rough seas and strong currents. If there were debris (luggage, seat cushions, bodies), it would have had time to get dispersed before they shifted their attention to the current area.


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## vikingBerserker (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm really surprised these aircraft don't have GPS Locators that cannot be turned off.


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## Gnomey (Apr 12, 2014)

Would make a lot of sense. Guess there will be a push for changes in the aftermath of this incident.


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## pbehn (Apr 12, 2014)

There is speculation that everyone was incapacitated by lack of oxygen. So why not make a transmitter that kicks off when the oxygen level is too low for a human to be conscious, irrespective of whether the crew and passengers have their emergency supply. Also, this is a commercial flight, why not have an alarm transmitted automatically when a plane deviates by more than a set percent from its planned flight path? Make black box recorders "ping" once everyu 5 seconds and have the battery last 2 months.


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## GrauGeist (Apr 12, 2014)

pbehn said:


> There is speculation that everyone was incapacitated by lack of oxygen. So *why not make a transmitter that kicks off when the oxygen level is too low *for a human to be conscious, irrespective of whether the crew and passengers have their emergency supply. Also, this is a commercial flight, *why not have an alarm transmitted automatically when a plane deviates* by more than a set percent from its planned flight path? *Make black box recorders "ping" once everyu 5 seconds and have the battery last 2 months.*


Because all of that makes sense...


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## Marcel (Apr 12, 2014)

Seems like the co-pilot tried to make a phonecall after the radio went dead. Unfortunately the airplane was out of reach before the connection could be made.


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## nuuumannn (Apr 13, 2014)

> So why not make a transmitter that kicks off when the oxygen level is too low for a human to be conscious, irrespective of whether the crew and passengers have their emergency supply. Also, this is a commercial flight, why not have an alarm transmitted automatically when a plane deviates by more than a set percent from its planned flight path? Make black box recorders "ping" once every 5 seconds and have the battery last 2 months.



Because where do you draw the line and your aeroplane is now so full of safety features that it is too heavy and is not able to carry anywhere near its useable load? With every incident and accident new procedures come into place, but accidents will still continue to happen and then what? Will we stop flying altogether because it's too risky? Also, with every new addition to an aircraft's equipment fit, a price rise in fares occurs, otherwise, how else is the airline going to pay for all this? Passengers grumble about airfares enough already and flights would become so expensive only the wealthy will be able to afford it. Common sense has to prevail somewhere along the line. 

The comment about the ping does make sense, but I bet no one envisaged this might happen when ULBs were first installed in aircraft. As for deviating from a flight path, airliners deviate from their alloted flight paths all the time; the flight path and way points are entered into the FMS (Flight Management System - an electronic device that has information installed about airfields, waypoints etc, it also records fuel useage and other pertinent information, which is transmitted to the Flight data Recorder from the FMS); there is no direct link between the FMS and the flight controls apart from the pilot and if this is a result of the pilots, then what can prevent a pilot going dulally again? In saying that, the likelyhood of circumstances exactly like this one occurring again is very slim, however.

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## Elmas (Apr 13, 2014)

GrauGeist said:


> But remember, they were looking for a while in a completely different area.
> 
> Plus, the area where they are looking now has had rough seas and strong currents. If there were debris (luggage, seat cushions, bodies), it would have had time to get dispersed before they shifted their attention to the current area.



Even if I'm perfectly aware that to find a wreckage around the "Roaring Forties" can be extremely difficult, certainly there must be a point were the debris is concentrated, and form a sort of stream for the currents. Probably U-2 or SR-71, with their possibility to take high resolution photos of thousands square miles, would have proved invaluable in this case. And, in any case, this fact has to be solved, the Civil Aviation in the world over cannot remain the same without explaining in detail how this accident happened, we are not in the Amelia Earhart times.
Of course if there is someone that knows all the things and don't want them to be discovered, thats is another matter of fact, I' starting to believe.......


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## parsifal (Apr 13, 2014)

Satellites were providing images of the southern Indian ocean for quite some time, but whilst threse helped a bit, they also caused a lot more problems. many of the images received proved to be false leads, or unverifiable leads. As angus Houston has repeatedly stated, whats needed is location of wreckage, and beyond that the location of the flight recorder and the cockpit voice recorders. None of that has been found, 


This is one of the most difficult searches in history. Lets not mess with that. And assuming that technology will deliver the result we are looking for is a false premise. Nature is as untamed now as it was 80 years ago. There is more chance that we will not find the remains of Maylasian Airlines flight MH370 than ther is that we will find it. Sometimes things happen like that.

The best leads so far, have arisen from mathemeatical analysis, analysis of some aircraft transponder reports, radar and the sheer hard work of the search crews. Everything humanly possible to find the aircraft wreckage is being done, but this still may not be enough.


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## GrauGeist (Apr 13, 2014)

Here in Northern California, we have large, rugged mountain ranges that can hide an aircraft. Several years ago, they stumbled across a B-25 wreck and crew that had been missing since WWII. It can take quite some time to locate and get to a downed aircraft. 

We'll keep hoping the Australians can home in on their finding and it proves successful.


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## Marcel (Jul 31, 2015)

Seems like new developments on this case on Reunion island.

According to the media, it becomes more likely that this is a slat coming from MH370. Let's hope it will give more insight into this mistery.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 31, 2015)

Marcel said:


> Seems like new developments on this case on Reunion island.
> 
> According to the media, it becomes more likely that this is a slat coming from MH370. Let's hope it will give more insight into this mistery.




Boring did a photo analysis, found a number and confirmed it is a flaperon from a 777.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 31, 2015)

All flight controls and major sub assemblies on modern airliners are serialized with a data plate riveted to the structure. Unless the data plate was torn off (very doubtful) authorities should have immediately known where that flaperon came from.


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## pbehn (Jul 31, 2015)

I have already read two pieces on this.

1 The slat has turned up EXACTLY where predicted by people studying ocean currents.
2 The slat was planted.

Now another round of conspiracy theories.

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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 31, 2015)

pbehn said:


> Now another round of conspiracy theories.

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## pbehn (Jul 31, 2015)

I know cats, and that cat KNOWS something.

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## Marcel (Jul 31, 2015)

pbehn said:


> I have already read two pieces on this.
> 
> 1 The slat has turned up EXACTLY where predicted by people studying ocean currents.
> 2 The slat was planted.
> ...


Expensive joke.


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## GrauGeist (Jul 31, 2015)

Marcel said:


> Expensive joke.


Sadly, here we are in the 21st century with science and technology at our disposal that our ancestors couldn't even begin to imagine. 

And yet, there are still countless numbers of people today who still wish to live in fear and suspicion, being no different than people were hundreds of years ago, who didn't understand things around them and resorted to superstition, fear and loathing through ignorance.

Modern man has absolutely no excuse to be this way and I have nothing but complete and utter contempt for conspiracists.

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## Gnomey (Jul 31, 2015)

Guess we are still in the waiting game to see what comes of it. I am surprised its been quiet on it so far though, relatively speaking...


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## pbehn (Jul 31, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> Modern man has absolutely no excuse to be this way and I have nothing but complete and utter contempt for conspiracists.



I dont mind theorist coming up with a new idiotic theory about Stonehenge or lay lines or if the Roman Empire was destroyed by lead poisoning but the thousands of relatives colleagues and friends of those on the Malaysian airlines flight want to know what happened. Idiot theories about them being spirited away to secret landing strips and held as prisoners is James Bond stuff and should be denied publication. Sadly in our 15 minutes of fame society any crackpot theory will find a crackpot publisher.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 31, 2015)

FLYBOYJ said:


> All flight controls and major sub assemblies on modern airliners are serialized with a data plate riveted to the structure. Unless the data plate was torn off (very doubtful) authorities should have immediately known where that flaperon came from.



Yeah Boeing found the tag and confirmed it.


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## GrauGeist (Jul 31, 2015)

pbehn said:


> I dont mind theorist coming up with a new idiotic theory about Stonehenge or lay lines or if the Roman Empire was destroyed by lead poisoning but the thousands of relatives colleagues and friends of those on the Malaysian airlines flight want to know what happened. Idiot theories about them being spirited away to secret landing strips and held as prisoners is James Bond stuff and should be denied publication. Sadly in our 15 minutes of fame society any crackpot theory will find a crackpot publisher.


Agreed.

And now, the same people who claim the passengers were abducted and the plane has been converted into a rogue ghost-ship, are saying that some "key portions" of the plane have been planted to make it "appear" that the plane crashed.

However, if by looking at the damage to the trailing edge of the flaperon, it was extended in a landing position, the water causing that particular damage. So even then, the conspiracy people are wrong, because if the plane dove or suffered an uncontrolled crash into the water, the flaperon would not have been extended.

We may never have an answer to what happened to those poor souls, but they deserve to be remembered with dignity, not the focus of some half-wit's quest for popularity and internet page ad hits.


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## parsifal (Aug 1, 2015)

could they get an idea if the plane disintegrated before hitting the water? Could it be determined the speed and angle the piece entered the water? I am doubtful we will ever know for sure, but there may be clues in that debris.

If there was some kind of structural failure in the a/c, sure would like to know.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 1, 2015)

parsifal said:


> could they get an idea if the plane disintegrated before hitting the water? Could it be determined the speed and angle the piece entered the water? I am doubtful we will ever know for sure, but there may be clues in that debris.
> 
> If there was some kind of structural failure in the a/c, sure would like to know.


If you look at the flaperon recovered, you'll see that it is structurally intact except for the trailing edge. In order for the damage on the trailing edge to happen like that, it had to be extended (they extend downward when deployed) and struck a surface, such as water, which would result in this type of damage.

Image from Los Angeles Times article: What a six-foot chunk of plane debris might bring to the MH370 mystery - LA Times


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## GrauGeist (Aug 1, 2015)

pbehn said:


> I know cats, and that cat KNOWS something.


By the way, I showed this comment to my cat, and this was her reaction...

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## pbehn (Aug 1, 2015)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Yeah Boeing found the tag and confirmed it.



I was a little disturbed when people were asking where it came from, as if airliners routinely landed with massive sections of their wings missing.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 1, 2015)

pbehn said:


> I was a little disturbed when people were asking where it came from, as if airliners routinely landed with massive sections of their wings missing.



Twice last year 747's lost a flap during final into Frankfurt, Germany.


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## Gnomey (Aug 2, 2015)

Doesn't happen so often with newer airliners at least, 747's are mostly pretty old .

Certainly taking their time over identifying the pieces but they have to get it right after all.


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## pbehn (Aug 2, 2015)

Gnomey said:


> Doesn't happen so often with newer airliners at least, 747's are mostly pretty old .
> 
> Certainly taking their time over identifying the pieces but they have to get it right after all.



Its a formal process, has to be in France as Reunion is a French territory, people from Boeing must be there, people from Malaysian airlines must be there, representatives of the relatives lots of aviation experts and marine biologists oceanographers........then all the parties must be officially advised etc etc etc

There are a lot of hotels booked in Toulouse.


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## stona (Aug 2, 2015)

It always worries me when so called experts make ill advised prognostications on very limited data. Both quoted in that article have only seen a handful of photographs of the part in question and, unsurprisingly, have come to virtually diametrically opposed conclusions. They'd do well to keep quiet until the proper analyses have been completed. It is this sort of speculation by people who should know better that fuels even less informed speculation that leads to some of the more ridiculous theories that develop.

I think that the damage to the trailing edge clearly demonstrates the use of an alien tractor beam, used in an attempt to capture the aeroplane intact and provide plentiful live samples for an extraterrestrial anal probing programme... see what I mean 

Cheers

Steve

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## pbehn (Aug 2, 2015)

Stona dont worry , the Daily Mail is on the case. They have an expert who can "pinpoint" the crash site by examining photos of the "barnacles" stuck to the wing.


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## bobbysocks (Aug 2, 2015)

if they can take time from trying to recapture batboy


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