# The thread formally known as the P-39 vs. ze Germans thread.



## CORSNING (Oct 11, 2018)

Senior Master Sergeant? I knew flying that Piper Cherokee in
1972 without a license was going to catch up with me some day.

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## Kevin J (Oct 11, 2018)

CORSNING said:


> Senior Master Sergeant? I knew flying that Piper Cherokee in
> 1972 without a license was going to catch up with me some day.


Hey, I'm airman and I've only flown a plane once, used to drive a car without a licence as a kid. Does that count? Observer in the ROC, close. Taxi driver in my retirement, close second, same as civil air line pilots.


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## CORSNING (Oct 11, 2018)

...............Let-er-rip Kevin!

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## CORSNING (Oct 11, 2018)

Kevin,
When I turned 14 I was driving a 1961 4-spd. Volkswagon.
When I turned 15 I was driving a 1964 3-spd on the tree
Valiant station wagon. When I went to drivers-ed at 15.5
I had to have them show me how to drive an automatic.

True story, Jeff

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## BiffF15 (Oct 11, 2018)

CORSNING said:


> Kevin,
> When I turned 14 I was driving a 1961 4-spd. Volkswagon.
> When I turned 15 I was driving a 1964 3-spd on the tree
> Valiant station wagon. When I went to drivers-ed at 15.5
> ...



Most now don’t know the first thing about a manual transmission, and if they do few of them know anything about a “three on the tree”!

My 11 year old sits in the middle and shifts my 2006 F150. It’s much easier than older cars as there is a spring that centers the shifter between 3rd and 4th. Ingenious it is!

Cheers,
Biff

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## Shortround6 (Oct 11, 2018)

Comedy is a Yank trying to drive a Nissan 12 passenger van in Australia with a *FIVE *on the tree (on the left side of the wheel) while trying to drive on the right side of the road. Lost count of how many times I tried to shift the turn signal stalk.

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## BiffF15 (Oct 11, 2018)

Shortround6 said:


> Comedy is a Yank trying to drive a Nissan 12 passenger van in Australia with a *FIVE *on the tree (on the left side of the wheel) while trying to drive on the right side of the road. Lost count of how many times I tried to shift the turn signal stalk.



I take it the pattern was the standard HH with first close to the wheel and down?


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## Shortround6 (Oct 11, 2018)

It's been 30 years so I forget the exact pattern but that sounds right. If you could concentrate things weren't to bad. It's the "automatic" stuff that confused/caught you, like the turn signal stalk being on the right hand side of the wheel (I may have shifted instead of signalling once or twice ) but the mirrors are the worst, looking left to see the rearview mirror for instance. Or where the side mirrors were. Yeah, they are on the side but the left one is a lot further away and the right one is a lot closer, different angles than when driving a left hand drive car. 
The Van had about a 2 liter engine so sticking it in 4th or 5th and cruising wasn't much of an option (or skipping gears) .

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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 11, 2018)

BiffF15 said:


> few of them know anything about a “three on the tree”


Where would we be without three on the tree?
My first car, a $100 used three banger SAAB, had it. If I'd waited around for four on the floor, I'd still be a pedestrian today.
Cheers,
Wes

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 11, 2018)

CORSNING said:


> Senior Master Sergeant? I knew flying that Piper Cherokee in
> 1972 without a license was going to catch up with me some day.



Good thing you really have to try and kill yourself in a Piper Cherokee...

Love flying those. I’d like to own one someday.

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## fubar57 (Oct 11, 2018)

I had a '55 Austin with 4 on the tree. I believe for reverse, you pulled the shifter knob out and put it into second. The signal light was a small arm located on the post between the front and back doors. You call someone over and have them lean toward you and make a left turn signal....the light would swing out and catch them in the head......once. And now.......back to the thread.................


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## pbehn (Oct 11, 2018)

The first time I drove an automatic was in Saudi Arabia, well Saudi Arabia doesn't really have any standardisation, the automatic part is easy enough, once you have found out where the hand/footbrake is hidden and how you put it on and off. For some real fun just hire a car from an European airport at night. Finding out where the key goes how you start it, put it in reverse and use the hand brake is a challenge when you cant read the manual. There are so many "features" for safety now they are a real challenge to get going.


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 11, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> I had a '55 Austin with 4 on the tree. I believe for reverse, you pulled the shifter knob out and put it into second.


Must have had the same Fichtel & Sachs transmission my later racing SAAB had. That's exactly how its shifter worked. It had a weak pinion shaft which my tweaked up engine and heavy clutch managed to break twice.
Cheers,
Wes


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## Shortround6 (Oct 11, 2018)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Regarding low power aero engines, the United States wasn't doing much better at the time with its Allison as compared to the Soviet Klimov and Mikulin designs. None were that high powered initially.
> Regarding radials, there are a lot more variation but I believe the general philosophy was way different and I don't believe I am knowledgeable to do more than speculate there.
> 
> Regarding low altitude versus high altitude supercharging, just keep in mind that the pre-war United States wasn't really doing any better. Along with a multi-stage supercharger that is needed for good altitude performance, there typically needs to be an intercooler and the two add a significant weight penalty and cost performance at lower altitudes. Neither is needed for aircraft that are basically used to support ground forces.
> ...









The M-105 was close to the Allison but not quite there. The Allison was probably more durable in the early versions and got a lot better quick (got the nitrided shot peened crankshaft about the time of Pearl Harbor). The better fuel the Americans had helped but overboost the Hispano derived engines may have just broken them fairly quick. The Americans benefited from a more developed/diversified manufacturing base. This could supply innovations in manufacturing/fabrication/inspection that the Russians could not. 
The 9 cylinder radials were by the start of WW II licence built/derived Wright Cyclones, the older licenced Jupiters/Gnome-LeRone having faded away. The 14 cylinder M-88 was licensed Gnome-LeRone 14K and even with modifications was going nowhere. No center bearing between the cylinder rows. The M-82 was the best bet. The AM-35/38 was large, heavy and restricted in RPM. 

As far as the supercharging goes. The Allison in the long nosed P-40 was good for 1040hp at 14,200ft ( 4300meter) which is better than any of the M-105 engines ever did. There is high altitude supercharging and there is high altitude supercharging. Very few people came close to what Hooker achieved with the even the single stage Merlins. The Russian tried for high altitude, they put experimental turbochargers on practically anything that flew bigger than the M-11 five cylinder radial. They didn't have the manufacturing base to turn the idea's into reality.


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## wuzak (Oct 11, 2018)

Shortround6 said:


> Comedy is a Yank trying to drive a Nissan 12 passenger van in Australia with a *FIVE *on the tree (on the left side of the wheel) while trying to drive on the *right side of the road*. Lost count of how many times I tried to shift the turn signal stalk.



I hope by that you meant right = correct, not right as in starboard.

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## Shortround6 (Oct 11, 2018)

you are correct. I had a bit of brain fade there, we were driving on the left side of the road=correct


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## Milosh (Oct 11, 2018)

Thy switching between auto and standard transmissions. Brother lent me his auto Vette and went into a corner and tried to downshift like it was an manual. Foot went to the brake thinking it was the clutch. An exciting few seconds, be sure.


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## fubar57 (Oct 11, 2018)

In the way back when, in my province, if you took your road test in an automatic, your drivers licence had a restriction on it..."Automatic Only"

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## BiffF15 (Oct 11, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> In the way back when, in my province, if you took your road test in an automatic, your drivers licence had a restriction on it..."Automatic Only"



Which province? My wife is from the Niagara peninsula.

Cheers,
Biff


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## fubar57 (Oct 11, 2018)

B.C., almost in the middle. Hoping to move south shortly, out of snow(what its doing at the moment) and back into the rain

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 11, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> In the way back when, in my province, if you took your road test in an automatic, your drivers licence had a restriction on it..."Automatic Only"



That is how it still is in Germany today. My German license does not have that restriction because I took my lessons and test in a manual. Most people over there still drive manuals anyhow.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 11, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> B.C., almost in the middle. Hoping to move south shortly, out of snow(what its doing at the moment) and back into the rain



You want rain? Come down here to coastal Louisiana. It rains everydamn day, and the temps are still in the 80’s.

As a matter of fact I will trade you. I miss the snow...


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## michael rauls (Oct 11, 2018)

CORSNING said:


> Kevin,
> When I turned 14 I was driving a 1961 4-spd. Volkswagon.
> When I turned 15 I was driving a 1964 3-spd on the tree
> Valiant station wagon. When I went to drivers-ed at 15.5
> ...


Ah the Valiant with the 3 on the tree. We had one of those on the family for like 35 years till my grandfather finally sold it. I'd wager that thing is still out there somewhere chugging along.


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## fliger747 (Oct 12, 2018)

Driving on the "wrong" side of the road for example in NZ, biggest obstacle was turn signals and wipers. Stay there long enough and reverse mirrored issue wipers and turn signals occurred. In aircraft with sticks vis wheels one has to not rely on mechanical stick and throttle responses. This also applies to flying from a left or right seat in a crew served aircraft, a different experience...

Somewhere along the way I managed to accumulate about 23,000 hours of flight time, some 10,000 of that as a 747 captain, but also a lot of Alaska bush flying. As a hobby I also have done the simulator flight dynamics for many aircraft large and small. A lot of which I was able to fly, some not. Simulator can indeed help one master a lot of flight control issues, particularly instrument flying. Having flown "jellypoppers" in FSX a lot I found that the skill actually did transfer well to real helicopters. I believe the gent who stole the Q400 from SEA probably had flight simmed it previously. Quite realistic aircraft are available with regards to procedures. My first time flying in a 747-400 was as a captain sitting in the left seat, of course after six weeks of intensive trading at Boeing. That said i had previously been a 747-200 driver, but the planes are quite different.

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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 12, 2018)

fliger747 said:


> In aircraft with sticks vis wheels one has to not rely on mechanical stick and throttle responses.


I found the trick is to not get too seat sedentary. Nearly half my flight time was in the right (or in the case of stick-and-rudder machines, the back), either as CFI or FO. Even when flying the line, I was still getting some stick time in ragwings and gliders whenever duty time allowed. Keeps the brain engaged.
Can't imagine flying long haul and getting only one landing a day, maybe. We used to do 8 -14.
A friend used to fly a 747 Newark-London back in the day, and he said he couldn't stay current without the simulator. Not enough approaches, landings, or IMC time. He also said there was no challenge in landing it, except in high crosswords.
BTW, welcome aboard the haha hotel! Lotta good eggs around here, even if we do get a bit cantankerous at times.
Cheers,
Wes


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 12, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Ah the Valiant with the 3 on the tree.


And the 6 on the slant!

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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 12, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> if you took your road test in an automatic, your drivers licence had a restriction on it..."Automatic Only"


Take your flight test in a Mixmaster, and your license says "Multi engine land, centerline thrust only".
Driver Ed teaches only in automatics these days, then the kids' first cars are old 4wd pickups or Jeeps, and they're instant road hazards. Everybody should be taught and tested ONLY on manual transmissions. Bar none. If they can't hack it, they don't belong on the road at all. When they lose it with their juggernaut machine, someone else is usually the victim.
Cheers,
Wes

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## Kevin J (Oct 12, 2018)

CORSNING said:


> Kevin,
> When I turned 14 I was driving a 1961 4-spd. Volkswagon.
> When I turned 15 I was driving a 1964 3-spd on the tree
> Valiant station wagon. When I went to drivers-ed at 15.5
> ...


Gear sticks are so much more fun.


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## michael rauls (Oct 12, 2018)

Kevin J said:


> Gear sticks are so much more fun.


Yes agree. The more gears the better. Thats why I love my rigs with a 13 speed. ( they kinda suck in heavy traffic though)

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## Kevin J (Oct 12, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Yes agree. The more gears the better. Thats why I love my rigs with a 13 speed. ( they kinda suck in heavy traffic though)


I do taxi at the moment, I prefer sports saloons for the work. Current one does 150 mph, but never tried it. 2 Litres with air con on full kills the acceleration above 70 mph, but you've still got plenty of it at lower speeds. You can jump gears too while accelerating.


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## Peter Gunn (Oct 12, 2018)

Gear banging is way more fun than automatics, that said, my caddies have the manual automatic shifter, push it to the side and you get to bang gears... sort of, still fun though.

First car was a 1969 Chevelle with a four speed and a rebuilt 350 (5.7L) V8. She was six years old at the time in Michigan so, yeah, some rust, metallic blue with black top and interior, Cragar mags and Positraction, spent all the money I made over the summer between Junior and Senior years in HS. My uncle helped me rebuild the engine and tranny, it may not have been the fastest car in town, but it didn't lose too many arguments at the stoplight.

Kinda wish I still had it, be worth a pretty penny nowadays.

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## wuzak (Oct 12, 2018)

fliger747 said:


> Driving on the "wrong" side of the road for example in NZ, biggest obstacle was turn signals and wipers. Stay there long enough and reverse mirrored issue wipers and turn signals occurred. In aircraft with sticks vis wheels one has to not rely on mechanical stick and throttle responses. This also applies to flying from a left or right seat in a crew served aircraft, a different experience...



Interestingly, some right hand drive cars sold in Australia and New Zealand used the exact same steering columns, with wiper and indicator controls, so the same thing could happen to local drivers when they got into unfamiliar vehicles.


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## fubar57 (Oct 12, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Yes agree. The more gears the better. Thats why I love my rigs with a 13 speed. ( they kinda suck in heavy traffic though)



First piece of heavy equipment I ran was an off-highway 1967 Pacific P-10 gravel truck, 24 speed: 6 on the main and 4 aux. Backing up in reverse and 4th was scary fast. Not mine......

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## michaelmaltby (Oct 12, 2018)

split-shift perfection ...


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## KiwiBiggles (Oct 12, 2018)

wuzak said:


> Interestingly, some right hand drive cars sold in Australia and New Zealand used the exact same steering columns, with wiper and indicator controls, so the same thing could happen to local drivers when they got into unfamiliar vehicles.


Pretty much European vs Asian cars. European usually have indicators on the left, wipers on the right; Japanese have wipers on the left, indicators on the right.


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## michael rauls (Oct 12, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> First piece of heavy equipment I ran was an off-highway 1967 Pacific P-10 gravel truck, 24 speed: 6 on the main and 4 aux. Backing up in reverse and 4th was scary fast. Not mine......
> 
> View attachment 512806​


That looks EXACTLY like a 10 wheel dump I used to drive at a block plant I hauled out of back when I had my own rig in the early 2000s. Only the color is different. I owned a cabover freightliner and a 40 foot flatbed and I was friends with the owner of the company. It was my main account and they let me park my rig there. When things got slow and there were no loads to haul I'd load there old dump truck up with a cat 966 frontloader they had( load it with the reject block that didn't come out right) and haul it about a quarter mile away to a dumpsite. Both the loader and that old dump truck were truly on there last legs.


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## CORSNING (Oct 12, 2018)

P-39 vs. German fighters. Yep, that WAS the topic. Yep, I'm pretty sure.

Uh, it wasn't my fault this time for off-topic... was it?

DAMMIT!

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## fubar57 (Oct 12, 2018)

This is far more interesting

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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 12, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Take your flight test in a Mixmaster, and your license says "Multi engine land, centerline thrust only".
> Driver Ed teaches only in automatics these days, then the kids' first cars are old 4wd pickups or Jeeps, and they're instant road hazards. Everybody should be taught and tested ONLY on manual transmissions. Bar none. If they can't hack it, they don't belong on the road at all. When they lose it with their juggernaut machine, someone else is usually the victim.
> Cheers,
> Wes



Hello XBe02Drvr,
I would have to disagree with you on this point.
If you are trying to reduce the number of people that are qualified to drive, then this is an option, but I don't see it as being a particularly useful approach to teaching or testing.
You gave a specific example of a kid learning on an automatic and then inheriting something with a manual transmission.
The problem as I see it is that when one is learning to drive, there are too many sensory inputs and there isn't the experience to sort them out or know where to look for potential problems. Adding a manual transmission to the mix would not help things.
When they know the basics of navigating in traffic and can do it without white knuckles, then it makes sense to add something new.

Both my kids learned on regular sedans provided by the High School Driver Ed program. Considering where they were when they started "Behind the wheel", I don't think anyone teaching driving these days could afford to replace all the transmissions they would have busted when learning. Even after the kids pass their driving test, they are still quite dangerous for a while.

My Daughter is probably more typical of the kids in our area. She learned to drive about two years ago and now drives one of the family's mini vans. Most of her friends have more interesting cars or little econo boxes. My Son passed his driving test a month or two ago and will be getting his license at the end of this year.

I believe that my own introduction to manual transmissions was a pretty good one.
About a year after I got my license, my Dad bought a German 2000cc Capri for $200 and used it to teach me how to drive a manual. He knew the area around his workplace pretty well and picked the streets with the worst hills for me to learn on. There were a few times there was smoke coming from underneath when I was mishandling the clutch, but eventually I learned. It was a great little car. Not much for power but it handled well. Unfortunately my Dad sold it while I was off at College.

- Ivan.


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## BiffF15 (Oct 12, 2018)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello XBe02Drvr,
> I would have to disagree with you on this point.
> If you are trying to reduce the number of people that are qualified to drive, then this is an option, but I don't see it as being a particularly useful approach to teaching or testing.
> You gave a specific example of a kid learning on an automatic and then inheriting something with a manual transmission.
> ...



Funny, my first car was a ‘76 Capri with the 2.8. The 2 liter engine was a great motor, lots of mods available and could be built quite strong.

Cheers,
Biff

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## Milosh (Oct 12, 2018)

I learned to drive on a motorcycle and still ride, a H-D FXST. Motorcycles are the best for learning defensive driving.

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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 12, 2018)

Ivan1GFP said:


> You gave a specific example of a kid learning on an automatic and then inheriting something with a manual transmission.


Ever had a student who insisted on being taught to fly in his dad's Comanche 250, Mooney M20, or Cessna 210? Back in the day before insurance became prohibitive, I've had that experience. You don't hop in and blast off into the ozone on a first lesson under those circumstances like you might in a Cherokee or a Cessna 150. In fact you don't even get into the air at all until they've demonstrated a thorough knowledge of all the controls and instruments in the cockpit and have mastered checklists, engine and propeller operation and ground handling, to include high speed taxiing and accelerate - stops. Sort of like military flight training.
Similarly, beginning drivers should learn clutching and shifting in a large empty parking lot or other no-threat environment and have that down to an automatic reflex before tackling traffic or driving at speed. Maneuvering courses using painted parking space markings and pylons are a good way to build confidence safely. This is how it was done before the teacher's unions started objecting to scheduling road lessons outside the school day when parking lots were available.
Cheers,
Wes


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 12, 2018)

BiffF15 said:


> Funny, my first car was a ‘76 Capri with the 2.8.


I had a '73, "the Sexy European" 2.6 that a previous owner had tweaked up a bit. I had to set the idle kind of high to keep the plugs from fouling, and he had cobbled the throttle linkage such that the second pair of barrels in the carb came on all at once, getting rubber and making you appreciate your headrest. A GTO, it went through Gas, Tires, and Oil in prodigiou$ quantitie$, and was downright treacherous in winter, but a blast the rest of the time.
My brothers called it "the Crapi".
Cheers,
Wes

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## BiffF15 (Oct 12, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> I had a '73, "the Sexy European" 2.6 that a previous owner had tweaked up a bit. I had to set the idle kind of high to keep the plugs from fouling, and he had cobbled the throttle linkage such that the second pair of barrels in the carb came on all at once, getting rubber and making you appreciate your headrest. A GTO, it went through Gas, Tires, and Oil in prodigious quantities, and was downright treacherous in winter, but a blast the rest of the time.
> Cheers,
> Wes



Two stage two barrel Holley / Weber!

Cheers,
Biff


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## tyrodtom (Oct 12, 2018)

I learned to drive in a 50 Ford, F1. Worn out synchros, didn't just have to learn how to handle a clutch, but double clutching on every shift up or down. Brakes weren't much either. It taught me to always plan ahead, and become more involved with the vehicle.

I taught both of my daughters to drive straight sticks, and I think they're better drivers because of it. It did mean I had to replace two clutches in one car, but after making the guilty party help me replace the 2nd clutch, her clutch handling skills showed remarkable improvement.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 12, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Similarly, beginning drivers should learn clutching and shifting in a large empty parking lot or other no-threat environment and have that down to an automatic reflex before tackling traffic or driving at speed. Maneuvering courses using painted parking space markings and pylons are a good way to build confidence safely. This is how it was done before the teacher's unions started objecting to scheduling road lessons outside the school day when parking lots were available.



Hello XBe02Drvr,
I guess the method of learning is really determined by what your goal is. 
Outside of an airfield, I don't see a way to get up to highway speeds in a manual shift car in a no-threat environment.
Those are a little hard to come by in the civilian world especially when you consider how many kids learn to drive.
My Daughter is a pretty good example of the current system.
She doesn't know how to drive a manual shift car though she is interested in learning.
She DOES however know enough to be able to navigate safely in the metro area and even back and forth to College which is a couple hours away.
I believe she has accomplished the goal of learning how to drive.
Is it a handicap that she doesn't know how to drive a manual shift car? Not if you consider that all she has at the moment is a mini van with an automatic transmission. In time she will learn just as I expect her to learn performance driving.
My Wife learned how to drive a manual shift car in a single weekend. By the end of the weekend, it still wasn't pleasant to ride in the car with her driving, but she was getting around without issues. (Her regular car was going in the shop and we had just bought the car with the manual transmission.)

Your 4 Barrel 2.6 Capri reminds me of trying to tune the old Holley carburetors. Vacuum or Manual secondaries.... Which is better? Playing with springs and Accelerator Pump cams. That was an awful long time ago for me.



BiffF15 said:


> Funny, my first car was a ‘76 Capri with the 2.8. The 2 liter engine was a great motor, lots of mods available and could be built quite strong.



Hello BiffF15,
I believe mine was also a 1976 Capri. For a sporty car, I believe the 2000cc engine was the better of the two but although my Dad was a mechanic, I don't think he was really trying to hotrod this car. (In his spare time, he was tuning muscle cars for people is what I was told a few years back. It would explain why when I was a kid so many folks came by with different cars.)
The Capri is one of the cars I really enjoyed.
I found a really good example in Sierra Vista, AZ a couple decades ago but just admired and didn't offer to buy it. It was much nicer looking than the one I had.
Another car I really enjoyed was a VW Golf I had as a rental in the Netherlands. It was just plain agile. In a week I got so used to the car that when I got back to my Mustang, I had problems with the clutch for the next month and I had been driving the Mustang for years.

- Ivan.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 12, 2018)

Why would you want to learn highway speeds in a no-threat environment?

Where did I learn? On the Autobahn in a manual 5 speed 5 series BMW.

I’m not a fan of the parents teaching kids how to drive thing. Maybe that explains why there are so many terrible drivers here.

I had to go through a strict classroom and practical course that took several months and included a specific number of hours in day driving, night driving, city driving, rural driving, rain driving, winter driving, autobahn driving, and various parking techniques.

The driving test lasted over an hour, and involved a hell of a lot more than driving around the block like they do here.

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## fubar57 (Oct 12, 2018)

......and this concludes our thread on why the P-39 far out-shone the Luftwaffe. Thank you....I'll be here all week...don't forget to tip your waitress

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 12, 2018)

This is a thread about the P-39 vs. ze Germans?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 12, 2018)

And on that note, all the off-topic but highly contagious postings are moved to this thread...


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## fubar57 (Oct 12, 2018)



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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 13, 2018)

Kevin J said:


> 2 Litres with air con on full kills the acceleration above 70 mph, but you've still got plenty of it at lower speeds.


Kind of remind you of a certain bassackward fighter plane we all love to hate?
Cheers,
Wes


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 13, 2018)

BiffF15 said:


> Two stage two barrel Holley / Weber!


This one had four separate barrels operating in pairs and didn't look like any of the factory options pictured in Chilton's or Haynes. Don't think it was OEM. It sat on a shallow riser/adapter on top of a manifold that looked like it was configured for a two barrel. Somebody's cob job.
Cheers,
Wes

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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 13, 2018)

tyrodtom said:


> I learned to drive in a 50 Ford, F1. Worn out synchros, didn't just have to learn how to handle a clutch, but double clutching on every shift up or down.


Didn't know Ford was doing F1 in '50! Thought that started mid '60s with Cosworth and Lotus. Love those Hewland crashboxes! Our over the road busses had Spicer crashboxes, but the city ones had Allison two-speed automatics.
Cheers,
Wes


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 13, 2018)

Ivan1GFP said:


> I don't see a way to get up to highway speeds in a manual shift car in a no-threat environment.


That's just it. You don't get up to highway speeds in the parking lot, and you don't leave the parking lot until clutch and shift are more or less second nature. Get the fumbling and the anxiety out of the way first, then tackle higher speeds and traffic. You can build confidence with slow speed pylon patterns of increasing complexity. Like taking a flight student out of a busy airbase to practice landing patterns at an outlying field. That's the way I learned and that's the way I taught. It works.
Cheers,
Wes

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## tyrodtom (Oct 13, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Didn't know Ford was doing F1 in '50! Thought that started mid '60s with Cosworth and Lotus. Love those Hewland crashboxes! Our over the road busses had Spicer crashboxes, but the city ones had Allison two-speed automatics.
> Cheers,
> Wes


In 1950, a Ford F1 was nothing but a common every day pickup truck . They started calling them F100s in 1953.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 13, 2018)

Trouble is nowadays finding the empty parking lot. When I (and some of my siblings) were learning we lived in a state with"Blue laws" and most stores were closed on sunday. It wasn't hard to find an totally empty parking lot one day a week without learning to drive after midnight. In the winter you could practice "snow" driving in the unplowed lots. Slides/ skids and what not. 
Nowadays the the lots are in use (at least somewhat) 7 days a week and from morning to well after dark. 
I used to love stick shifts. But after driving my wife in and out of Manhattan for a few years (and a few other high traffic density areas) Stick shifts may not be practical for some people, I was glad we had automatics when it could take you 2-3 hours to drive 60 miles on a multilane highway. 2 hours was a very good day.
If I lived in an area with snow and didn't have to face a long commute I might still prefer a stick shift as I felt I had more control in snow. Most of cars I had were rear wheel drive and you could down shift to slow down without loosing the steering. If the rear end fishtailed a bit it was easy to correct for. 

There were fewer cars on the road too, so learning by doing on public roads may have been easier.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 13, 2018)

I still don’t get the empty parking lot. My first driving lesson was with a manual and we spent maybe 10 minutes in a parking lot. Then it was out on the road.

But then again, that was with a real driving school (which is requiredby law). The instructor also had clutch and break pedals on his side.

I’ll say it again, I am not a fan of parents teaching their kids how to drive. Why? They are just passing on their bad habbits, and it is an endless circle of people that don’t know how to drive teaching people how to not drive. There is reason each generation of drivers is getting worse and worse...


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## CORSNING (Oct 13, 2018)

HOLY CRAP, we've been dissected!

Well, as long as we are here 1972. What a beautiful car.


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## CORSNING (Oct 13, 2018)

And then I bring you the Americanized 1982. Different
handling, but still beautiful.......and so is the car.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 13, 2018)

I took one of my younger sisters into a parking lot after she had 5 of her allotted *6* hours of road time in high school drivers ed. She was driving at 20-25mph in a 45mph zone that was a truck route and came to a complete stop before making the right hand turn into the parking lot. She was driving like she was scared of the car and what it might do if she gave it any but the most gentle of inputs. we spent about a 1/2 an hour just hitting the brake pedal at 20mph or under, hitting the gas for a few seconds and giving the wheel a god tug one way or the other in addition to so just general driving around. 
Parking lots have their places for certain things and some people learn faster than others. 
In a parking lot I learned that my TR-250 in snow (at least with me driving) once it got past about 20-30 degree skid would just keep fishtailing until it swapped ends. You could catch it while going backwards  and hardly leave an area wider than a lane of traffic. I had other cars you could hang out to 45 degrees or better and still get back without large fishtails. 
Not stuff you want to learn on city streets. 

I am not sure that learning to drive from a Math or History teacher is the best method either  
Especially one who's main goal is to stay alive while teaching.


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## CORSNING (Oct 13, 2018)

Ok, I looked closer at the heading. I have been blamed for this
whole thread. 
OK then, someone mentioned highway speeds in a parking lot,
I can do that.







Yep, that's my baby.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 13, 2018)

Shortround6 said:


> I took one of my younger sisters into a parking lot after she had 5 of her allotted *6* hours of road time in high school drivers ed. She was driving at 20-25mph in a 45mph zone that was a truck route and came to a complete stop before making the right hand turn into the parking lot. She was driving like she was scared of the car and what it might do if she gave it any but the most gentle of inputs. we spent about a 1/2 an hour just hitting the brake pedal at 20mph or under, hitting the gas for a few seconds and giving the wheel a god tug one way or the other in addition to so just general driving around.
> Parking lots have their places for certain things and some people learn faster than others.
> In a parking lot I learned that my TR-250 in snow (at least with me driving) once it got past about 20-30 degree skid would just keep fishtailing until it swapped ends. You could catch it while going backwards  and hardly leave an area wider than a lane of traffic. I had other cars you could hang out to 45 degrees or better and still get back without large fishtails.
> Not stuff you want to learn on city streets.
> ...



Drivers Ed in school is not a driving school. In fact it is no different than parents teaching their kids.

I am talking about requiring a real mandatory driving school, with certified teachers. How its done in other parts of the world. You start out with a classroom, 2 nights a week covering the laws, theory of driving, first aid/cpr certification. This concludes with a written exam. Then follows the practical instruction. This includes about 20 hours minimum of driving with a certified and trained driving instructor that includes city driving, parking techniques, good driving practices (You know using those pesky turn signals, and how to merge in lanes and use the zipper method [that other thing Americans hate to know how to use]), night driving, highway/interstate driving and inclement weather driving. This concludes with a practical exam that covers everything learned. The student driver is prepared for driving on the roads, unlike most kids these days.

I wrote a paper on this a while back. The United States has one of the worst accident rates and vehicular death rates in the western industrialized world. You all have seen how terrible drivers are getting. Something has to give...


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## Shortround6 (Oct 13, 2018)

I agree with you, the standard of instruction in this country is terrible. As a firefighter for 33 years I saw a number of accidents.
I have forgotten most of the fender benders were we just went back to station and left it to the cops. The ones that tend to stick are the ones where we pried the car apart for either rescue or recovery. Parental stupidity only stands out in few cases. Like buying 16-17 year olds Nissan 350 Z or some such. Somewhat predictable results. 
I know what you mean about merging too, It seems like some of the drivers think there is someone watching from above that will give them bonus points for the most cars passed while they are in the entrance ramp/merge lane 

Some of the driver's ed cars I drove in high school were lucky to give the instructor a brake pedal let alone anything else. Trying to learn to drive with 6 hours on the road total with 2-3 different cars (different makes/brands) in the Driver's ED fleet plus driving parents cars didn't help. 
Funny story (to me anyway) was driving down to Driver's ED with my father (me driving ) in our 6 year old Volkswagen beetle and then climbing into a Buick with _power everything,_ took some quick adjusting. Nearly put the instructor through the windshield at the first stop sign. At the next lesson he braced both arms against the dash and had me test the brakes before we had gone 100ft.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 13, 2018)

Kevin J said:


> I2 Litres with air con on full kills the acceleration above 70 mph, but you've still got plenty of it at lower speeds. You can jump gears too while accelerating.



Interesting.... If arranged properly, you can have a manifold pressure switch that cuts the compressor at WOT. The goofy thing is that at about 75 to 80 MPH, the AC compressor cuts on my Mustang and there is still plenty of power at those speeds. My old 1.6 Liter didn't have that but even without anything going on, it was wasn't very quick with only about 75 HP. It did teach how to anticipate things happening.



DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Why would you want to learn highway speeds in a no-threat environment?
> 
> I had to go through a strict classroom and practical course that took several months and included a specific number of hours in day driving, night driving, city driving, rural driving, rain driving, winter driving, autobahn driving, and various parking techniques.
> 
> The driving test lasted over an hour, and involved a hell of a lot more than driving around the block like they do here.



Highway speeds because it would teach gear handling for downshifting and passing and also for the hills if your little tuk-tuk doesn't have enough power to keep going up a hill as one of my rentals did not. (Fiat Cinquecento (sp?) on a British Motorway)

Your description of a proper driving course sounds an awful lot like the course my Son just went through. It is taught at the school, but only the classroom part is really part of regular High School Physical Education (!). The rest is something that we sign up for separately. He passed his driving test, but still must wait several months and accumulate more hours and especially night driving hours in order to get his license. The Rain Driving isn't something that is part of the course nor is Winter driving. Snow is really unpredictable around here and I believe technique really depends on the vehicle you have.

I believe the rather poor driving we have around here is mostly due to cell phone and texting and general distracted driving. That in combination with folks that are learning as adults because they are immigrants doesn't make for a great combination. Most of the really stupid "driving" that I have seen is appears to be because the driver is distracted by cell phone, kids in the back, argument with the spouse, whatever. That is a behaviour rather than education thing.

- Ivan.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 13, 2018)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Interesting.... If arranged properly, you can have a manifold pressure switch that cuts the compressor at WOT. The goofy thing is that at about 75 to 80 MPH, the AC compressor cuts on my Mustang and there is still plenty of power at those speeds. My old 1.6 Liter didn't have that but even without anything going on, it was wasn't very quick with only about 75 HP. It did teach how to anticipate things happening.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The driving course I have described is much more stringent and structured than drivers education in school. It actually prepares you for driving.

Cell phones certainly play a role, but even bigger of a role is not being taught and prepared in a structured setting that actually prepares you to handle a vehicle on the roads with other vehicles on the road as well.

There is a lack of basic skills, like when turning what direction should you use a narrow or wide turn. A systematic step by step process for parallel parking, how to actually merge lanes, how to properly use the zipper method, etc...


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## michael rauls (Oct 13, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The driving course I have described is much more stringent and structured than drivers education in school. It actually prepares you for driving.
> 
> Cell phones certainly play a role, but even bigger of a role is not being taught and prepared in a structured setting that actually prepares you to handle a vehicle on the roads with other vehicles on the road as well.
> 
> There is a lack of basic skills, like when turning what direction should you use a narrow or wide turn. A systematic step by step process for parallel parking, how to actually merge lanes, how to properly use the zipper method, etc...


As someone who spends 11 or 12 hours a day 5 days a week on the road in the cab of a large truck where I can see over traffic far ahead I can attest to the lack of basic driving skills possessed by a disturbingly large percentage of drivers.
At least here in southern California
You wouldn't believe the crazy stuff I see and not just once in a while.
Hey this may be a little off topic but does anyone know where I can find a thread on the p39 vs German fighters?

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## at6 (Oct 13, 2018)

Marcel said:


> We will probably change the post counts you need for each ranks, so you'll probably have a lower rank again next week.





DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Drivers Ed in school is not a driving school. In fact it is no different than parents teaching their kids.
> 
> I am talking about requiring a real mandatory driving school, with certified teachers. How its done in other parts of the world. You start out with a classroom, 2 nights a week covering the laws, theory of driving, first aid/cpr certification. This concludes with a written exam. Then follows the practical instruction. This includes about 20 hours minimum of driving with a certified and trained driving instructor that includes city driving, parking techniques, good driving practices (You know using those pesky turn signals, and how to merge in lanes and use the zipper method [that other thing Americans hate to know how to use]), night driving, highway/interstate driving and inclement weather driving. This concludes with a practical exam that covers everything learned. The student driver is prepared for driving on the roads, unlike most kids these days.
> 
> I wrote a paper on this a while back. The United States has one of the worst accident rates and vehicular death rates in the western industrialized world. You all have seen how terrible drivers are getting. Something has to give...


Hence the reason for driver less cars being promoted here.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 13, 2018)

I had a weird experience near the end of my firefighter career. I had in my younger days a licence for tractor trailer, but never really used it. It allowed me to drive the fire trucks without any special training or course. However in the years that followed they tightened up on the requirements for that commercial licence and I didn't bother to keep it current. The DMV also introduced some new classifications/categories like the "Q" endorsement for driving fire apparatus. At any rate at some point the when renewing my licence the DMV took away the commercial/tractor trailer licence but didn't substitute teh "Q " and with just a few years left to my career I would up having to through a fire truck driving course and test with a bunch of young (and not so young) volunteer firefighters. A few days of class room and pre-trip inspections (disconnect between DMV and fire depts, we "pre-trip" at the beginning of the shift, you don't run around checking lug nuts when the alarm goes off) and then the day of the driving test with the DMV inspector. The driving "test" consisted pre-trip checking the truck , backing the truck up about 100ft while staying in one traffic lane and stopping with rear bumper within 12 inches of of an imaginary line(but not over) between two traffic cones. Parallel parking into a spot marked out by traffic cones and doing a left hand 90 degree turn into an imaginary loading dock and stopping at the already mentioned 12in space. 
None of this anything to do with how fire trucks are actually operated. For several years before this our dept had a policy that if you were backing up FOR ANY REASON, you had at least one spotter guiding you visible in your rear view mirror/s. Getting caught backing up without a spotter, even to reposition it 5 ft for washing was subject to disciplinary action. 
After the parking test came the "over the road." I don't know if the inspector had been tipped off about me or not. By the time we made it past the 2nd stop sign he told me to turn around at the next and go back, I had passed as far as he was concerned. 

In 33 years we actually only practiced "emergency braking" one day. Lay out a few cones and piece of old hose and get the truck up to about 20mph and slam on the brakes when you pass a set of cones and try not to run over the hose (about to be thrown out anyway). On the other hand we had a few trucks that would not have stood up to much abuse in a long training session. I once "lost" the brakes on a 100ft aerial coming back form a false alarm. Hot summer day (almost 100 degrees) and back to back runs, coming back from the 2nd and (and driving normal for 2-3 miles through 25-35mph zones) the brakes just faded out going down hill on the main east=west street through the center of town when the light turned red at the bottom. the truck stopped about one block later. Luck was with us and nobody was in front of us. 
Drum brakes are crap

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## Tieleader (Oct 13, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Hey this may be a little off topic but does anyone know where I can find a thread on the p39 vs German fighters?


I was taught that it started here P-39 vs German fighters in school but the flat earthers /lunar landing hoaxers proved it was all a NASA cover up! 
Seriously, totally agree about the lack of training to today's drivers. Back when I learned to drive (a century ago) parking lots were to best spot to get over that initial gun-shy feeling of moving a big chunk of metal around without fear of whacking something (at least too hard). Then moving onto the road and the harder points. At least you didn't get dropped off on the deep the first time! I'm terrified that one of the dozen times I take my Trans Am out to a show, I'm going to get T-boned by a 17 year old who's steering with his knee and texting his autobiography to his girlfriend (thanks to Chris Titus!). PUT DOWN THE DAMNED CELL PHONES PEOPLE! Sorry, sore point with me...

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## Tieleader (Oct 13, 2018)

at6 said:


> Hence the reason for driver less cars being promoted here.


Like the one that did a "hit and run" a little back on the test course Sorry I'll wait wait for the 2.0 version. Wait, maybe not at all ...

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## Tieleader (Oct 13, 2018)

Shortround6 said:


> Drum brakes are crap


Agreed! Glad no one got hurt!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 13, 2018)

Back to the topic of young drivers using cell phones. That is actually another prime example of parents teaching their kids their bad habits.

Every day, I see some mother or father driving with a phone stuck to their ear with a kid in the back seat. Kids learn from their parents.

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## fubar57 (Oct 13, 2018)

Thppft!!!...brake tests....brakes just slow production down. 4 brake tests on a Cat 793; Park Brake: depress shifter release button, depress upshift button, put shifter into drive and bring RPM up to 1400, Manual Brake retarder(main braking system): pull handle all the way down, same RPM, Service Brake pedal(only to be used below 2mph): Pedal all the way to the floor, same RPM, Emergency(Oh sh!t) pedal(only to be used when all else fails): Pedal all the way to the floor, same RPM. If the truck moves at all during these tests the truck is down. I've had to use the E brake twice on Komatsu electrics


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 13, 2018)

Tieleader said:


> I was taught that it started here P-39 vs German fighters in school but the flat earthers /lunar landing hoaxers proved it was all a NASA cover up!
> Seriously, totally agree about the lack of training to today's drivers. Back when I learned to drive (a century ago) parking lots were to best spot to get over that initial gun-shy feeling of moving a big chunk of metal around without fear of whacking something (at least too hard). Then moving onto the road and the harder points. At least you didn't get dropped off on the deep the first time! I'm terrified that one of the dozen times I take my Trans Am out to a show, I'm going to get T-boned by a 17 year old who's steering with his knee and texting his autobiography to his girlfriend (thanks to Chris Titus!). PUT DOWN THE DAMNED CELL PHONES PEOPLE! Sorry, sore point with me...



I believe in starting off on the roads. With a structured real certified school it is possible. Like I said, my first lesson had only the first 10 minutes in a parking lot, then it was out onto the road.


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## Tieleader (Oct 13, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I believe in starting off on the roads. With a structured real certified school it is possible. Like I said, my first lesson had only the first 10 minutes in a parking lot, then it was out onto the road.


I'm not saying spend all day there, just long enough to get over that "OMG I'm going to hit somebody and kill them" feeling! or the "OMG I'm going to crash and explode!" feeling.. Long enough to realize that you now have responsibility to those around you. THEN throw them off into the deep end. I never had the proper private driving school experience and am proud to say I have never caused an accident. Been on the receiving end, sure. More time than I'd like. In hindsight, yes a more defined learning method would have been appreciated early on. Made up for the lack of learning by experience.


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## michael rauls (Oct 13, 2018)

Tieleader said:


> I'm not saying spend all day there, just long enough to get over that "OMG I'm going to hit somebody and kill them" feeling! or the "OMG I'm going to crash and explode!" feeling.. Long enough to realize that you now have responsibility to those around you. THEN throw them off into the deep end. I never had the proper private driving school experience and am proud to say I have never caused an accident. Been on the receiving end, sure. More time than I'd like. In hindsight, yes a more defined learning method would have been appreciated early on. Made up for the lack of learning by experience.


Taking the getting over the" OMG I'm going to crash and explode" feeling by starting in an empty parking lot in a slightly different direction. Learning to fly is something I've always wanted to do but never had the time or money. I've got the money now( thanks to a decades of savings and investment). Still don't have the time yet but retirement is about 12 short years away. Then, hopefully I will have both the time and money.
Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone here can tell me if you can learn the basics of how to fly on a good simulator.
I dont mean to be a competent pilot on a simulator but just so that when you take your first flight the muscle memory is already there so at least to some degree it's familiar and you know what to do instinctively instead of trying to think it through your first time out.
Thanks in advance for any responses.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 13, 2018)

And thats the thing. It probably worked great back then. Less technology in the cars. Less distraction from things like phones. Slower speeds. Less cars on the road.

Now a days, the less structured non formal training is not cutting it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 13, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Taking the getting over the" OMG I'm going to crash and explode" feeling by starting in an empty parking lot in a slightly different direction. Learning to fly is something I've always wanted to do but never had the time or money. I've got the money now( thanks to a decades of savings and investment). Still don't have the time yet but retirement is about 12 short years away. Then, hopefully I will have both the time and money.
> Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone here can tell me if you can learn the basics of how to fly on a good simulator.
> I dont mean to be a competent pilot on a simulator but just so that when you take your first flight the muscle memory is already there so at least to some degree it's familiar and you know what to do instinctively instead of trying to think it through your first time out.
> Thanks in advance for any responses.



Learning to fly is certainly different. Usually you have ground school first.

I went through several weeks of ground school before scheduling my first flight when I learned to fly. On that flight though, my instructer through me in the deep end. I had the controls from the beginning. Took the plane off myself. Of course the first flight was just basic familiarization. Left and right turns, descents and climbs. He had me fly it to the runway, but he landed it.

Of course this was in a very docile forgiving Piper Cherokee.


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## fubar57 (Oct 13, 2018)

_View: https://youtu.be/FXEoe8_CcbM_​

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## Glider (Oct 13, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Back to the topic of young drivers using cell phones. That is actually another prime example of parents teaching their kids their bad habits.
> 
> Every day, I see some mother or father driving with a phone stuck to their ear with a kid in the back seat. Kids learn from their parents.


Here in the UK it's an offence to use a cell phone which is in your hand, you are only allowed to use hands free phones. It helps a little but the biggest problem is that when you are talking on a cell phone, you are not concentrating. Age, experience, whatever makes no difference, you will be booked for it.


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## michael rauls (Oct 13, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Learning to fly is certainly different. Usually you have ground school first.
> 
> I went through several weeks of ground school before scheduling my first flight when I learned to fly. On that flight though, my instructer through me in the deep end. I had the controls from the beginning. Took the plane off myself. Of course the first flight was just basic familiarization. Left and right turns, descents and climbs. He had me fly it to the runway, but he landed it.
> 
> Of course this was in a very docile forgiving Piper Cherokee.


Thanks for the reply. I guess what I meant was that if one could get to the place on a simulator that you would have the muscle memory of what to do instinctively the first time out it would make things alot easier and perhaps safer.
I realize the feel of things would of course be much different due to the lack of the effects of inertia, wind speed changes, etc in a simulator.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 13, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The driving course I have described is much more stringent and structured than drivers education in school. It actually prepares you for driving.
> .....
> There is a lack of basic skills, like when turning what direction should you use a narrow or wide turn. A systematic step by step process for parallel parking, how to actually merge lanes, how to properly use the zipper method, etc...



Hello DerAdlerIstGelandet,
I am not trying to get into an argument about the quality of your driver training versus what the kids are getting around here.
I am just noting that most of the points you are raising have been addressed from what I can see. The quality is subject to debate because I believe there is really no substitute for experience and knowing where to spot problems before they happen. The program has changed A LOT since I went through it a few decades ago. It is a lot more rigorous and the my Son's instructor was the fellow who signed off on his driving test, so I presume he has some kind of certification from the local government.

I am not sure what you mean by narrow or wide turn. Fastest line through a corner? Kind of depends on the car.
Regarding parallel parking, some people get it and some people don't. I watch a lady who could not figure out how to move her car over a couple feet when she didn't line up properly in a parking space. Doesn't really mean she's dangerous on the road. It just means she isn't all that skilled.

We all have our opinions, but although I agree that being able to operate a car with a manual transmission is a useful skill and I enjoy manual shift cars, in the daily commute through rush hour traffic an automatic is a lot less fatiguing. It gets quite annoying when traffic is moving at about 2-3 MPH and you realise that the slowest you can go with the car in gear is about 7 MPH. 

- Ivan.


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## fubar57 (Oct 13, 2018)

How do the RCMP in Chilliwack , B.C catch cell phone users?....posing as line-men.





​


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## Kevin J (Oct 13, 2018)

Glider said:


> Here in the UK it's an offence to use a cell phone which is in your hand, you are only allowed to use hands free phones. It helps a little but the biggest problem is that when you are talking on a cell phone, you are not concentrating. Age, experience, whatever makes no difference, you will be booked for it.


Unless you're a taxi driver using a PDA which looks remarkably like a mobile phone with an app and satnav, in which case it is okay to break these laws.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 13, 2018)

Glider said:


> Here in the UK it's an offence to use a cell phone which is in your hand, you are only allowed to use hands free phones. It helps a little but the biggest problem is that when you are talking on a cell phone, you are not concentrating. Age, experience, whatever makes no difference, you will be booked for it.



It is here too. It is just not enforced. A close friend of mine is a cop. Drives around posting on facebook while driving.


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## Kevin J (Oct 13, 2018)

CORSNING said:


> Ok, I looked closer at the heading. I have been blamed for this
> whole thread.
> OK then, someone mentioned highway speeds in a parking lot,
> I can do that.
> ...


I'm sure the Cobra really was a car as it had car doors and flew very low, less than 10000 feet, to be effective. Jeez, you wouldn't even get over the Alps flying like that, you'd be better off driving one of those Peugeot or Mercedes diesels. The Cobra was okay for the Russians because there were no mountains between the Urals and the North Sea, although luckily they never got that far because we suckered them into taking Berlin while we advanced into East Germany and nabbed the Nazi's best scientists. Except the ones that escaped to Antarctica in flying saucers.

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## Glider (Oct 13, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> It is here too. It is just not enforced. A close friend of mine is a cop. Drives around posting on facebook while driving.


I work for a police force and they go to considerable lengths to try and enforce it. They have hired HGV cabs so they can check on HGV drivers, buses so they can look down on people in cars and even set up an ANPR set in an agricultural tractor as they are high up and can see a considerable distance ahead.
Some of the officers jokingly asked if they could put the stripes, lights and siren on the HGV cab, as that would have been a real sight hammering down the motorway, but it was declined.

Some of the things they have found beggar belief. One HGV driver was using a small gas stove on the passenger seat to cook his dinner, while he was driving.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 13, 2018)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello DerAdlerIstGelandet,
> I am not trying to get into an argument about the quality of your driver training versus what the kids are getting around here.
> I am just noting that most of the points you are raising have been addressed from what I can see. The quality is subject to debate because I believe there is really no substitute for experience and knowing where to spot problems before they happen. The program has changed A LOT since I went through it a few decades ago. It is a lot more rigorous and the my Son's instructor was the fellow who signed off on his driving test, so I presume he has some kind of certification from the local government.
> 
> ...



I disagree. That is ok. This is not an argument.

Drivers Ed may be more stringent now, but is nothing like a real structured regulated school. After 6 hours, you are back to driving with your parents who themselves went through drivers education in school.

By narrow or wide turn, I mean when to use a wide or narrow turn. How many times have you sat at red light at an intersection, and almost had some turning onto your street from the right almost clip your car because they took the turn to narrow? Happens to me several times a day because people are not taught the basics here.

Parallel parking? I disagree with you. There is a systematic step by step process using your rear window that is taught in driving schools in Germany for instance. It is actually a technique that spelled out. Makes it so easy you get it on the 1st try.

Same can be said for the zipper method. Every American I know here, calls people who actually use it correctly an asshole trying to get ahead of the slow traffic. In reality merging at the last possible point (known as the zipper method) is the most efficient method. People are taught here that it is not, that you merge as soon as you see traffic stopped ahead. In reality you are slowing it down even more, and this actually causes a higher number of accidents. There has actually been a lot of research done on this.


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 13, 2018)

Shortround6 said:


> I am not sure that learning to drive from a Math or History teacher is the best method either
> Especially one who's main goal is to stay alive while teaching.


In my state (VT), a Driver Ed teacher has to go through a rigorous training course and then is certified to teach Driver Ed ONLY. They can hold other certifications, but can't exercise them concurrently. If they're hired to teach D.E. that's all they can do. Students don't get near a car until they've had half a semester of classroom work, and then they're still in class for the rest of the semester. Only the sharpest get by with only six hours of driving; the rest get more.
Needless to say, D.E. is a bottleneck in the education system, and not all students can be accommodated. Since DMV requires evidence of formal training from license applicants, there's a lively market for driving academies, and well-to-do students are likely to lose out in the competition for public school D.E.
Cheers,
Wes


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## Shortround6 (Oct 13, 2018)

I am glad to hear that things are getting stricter. The old ways weren't very good.


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 13, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone here can tell me if you can learn the basics of how to fly on a good simulator.
> I dont mean to be a competent pilot on a simulator but just so that when you take your first flight the muscle memory is already there so at least to some degree it's familiar and you know what to do instinctively instead of trying to think it through your first time out.


Well, a computer flight sim can give you a perceptual and procedural memory, but not a valid muscle memory. The control feel and response rates as well as the visual and kinesthetic impacts are so different that subliminal responses acquired on the sim aren't going to translate exactly to the plane.
Now if you can learn to absorb the behaviors and responses of the sim conceptually in terms of what situation requires what action without focusing on feel and habitual response, the sim will serve you well. Keep your brain in the loop and your reflexes out and you'll do fine. When you first get in the plane expecting rapid initial progress, you'll be disappointed, but once you get over the initial hump you'll take on new steps in the process faster than most. Don't expect it to make a massive dollar reduction in the overall cost of flight training. I've had students who came self-taught on desktop sims and were convinced all they needed from me was a sign-off so they could go fly solo and teach themselves the rest. They were highly resistant to any input from me, and totally ignorant of what a danger they were to everyone around. I had to find creative ways to safely let them scare the crap out of themselves to get their attention. A touch of humility can be a great learning aid. It's you that's footing the bill.
Good luck and have fun!
Cheers,
Wes

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## special ed (Oct 13, 2018)

I had a 52 Fiat for a while. They were never imported to the US so this one must have been brought in by an officer, although why I don't know. It had four on the column with reverse back and down. First was a granny gear so normal use was 2nd for 1st. For any unfamiliar, Its the size of a m\Morris major. Those still confused, it is the size of modern mid sized cars. Those who rode with me were amazed at the speedometer which topped out at 140. I usually let them be amazed for a while before I explained about kilometers and that it was 86mph. The carb had a summer and winter setting which meant nothing in south Louisiana. It went out of service quite often and my father liked to tinker with it and seemed fascinatedwithit.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 13, 2018)

FIAT is an acronym for "Fix It Again Tony"

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## fubar57 (Oct 13, 2018)



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## michael rauls (Oct 14, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Well, a computer flight sim can give you a perceptual and procedural memory, but not a valid muscle memory. The control feel and response rates as well as the visual and kinesthetic impacts are so different that subliminal responses acquired on the sim aren't going to translate exactly to the plane.
> Now if you can learn to absorb the behaviors and responses of the sim conceptually in terms of what situation requires what action without focusing on feel and habitual response, the sim will serve you well. Keep your brain in the loop and your reflexes out and you'll do fine. When you first get in the plane expecting rapid initial progress, you'll be disappointed, but once you get over the initial hump you'll take on new steps in the process faster than most. Don't expect it to make a massive dollar reduction in the overall cost of flight training. I've had students who came self-taught on desktop sims and were convinced all they needed from me was a sign-off so they could go fly solo and teach themselves the rest. They were highly resistant to any input from me, and totally ignorant of what a danger they were to everyone around. I had to find creative ways to safely let them scare the crap out of themselves to get their attention. A touch of humility can be a great learning aid. It's you that's footing the bill.
> Good luck and have fun!
> Cheers,
> Wes


Thank you for your insight. Gives me a better idea what to and what not to expect.


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## Tieleader (Oct 14, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> _View: https://youtu.be/FXEoe8_CcbM_​



Saw THAT coming!


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 14, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Thank you for your insight. Gives me a better idea what to and what not to expect.


A lot depends on the chemistry between you and your insructor(s). Not everybody's teaching style meshes well with everybody's learning style. Don't waste money on an explosive concoction that could blow up the chemistry lab. Most important, have fun!:
Cheers,
Wes


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 14, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Well, a computer flight sim can give you a perceptual and procedural memory, but not a valid muscle memory. The control feel and response rates as well as the visual and kinesthetic impacts are so different that subliminal responses acquired on the sim aren't going to translate exactly to the plane.
> Now if you can learn to absorb the behaviors and responses of the sim conceptually in terms of what situation requires what action without focusing on feel and habitual response, the sim will serve you well. Keep your brain in the loop and your reflexes out and you'll do fine. When you first get in the plane expecting rapid initial progress, you'll be disappointed, but once you get over the initial hump you'll take on new steps in the process faster than most. Don't expect it to make a massive dollar reduction in the overall cost of flight training. I've had students who came self-taught on desktop sims and were convinced all they needed from me was a sign-off so they could go fly solo and teach themselves the rest. They were highly resistant to any input from me, and totally ignorant of what a danger they were to everyone around. I had to find creative ways to safely let them scare the crap out of themselves to get their attention. A touch of humility can be a great learning aid. It's you that's footing the bill.
> Good luck and have fun!
> Cheers,
> Wes



My instructor did not want me going near sims during initial training.


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## michael rauls (Oct 14, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> A lot depends on the chemistry between you and your insructor(s). Not everybody's teaching style meshes well with everybody's learning style. Don't waste money on an explosive concoction that could blow up the chemistry lab. Most important, have fun!:
> Cheers,
> Wes


Certainly sounds like good advice. Thank you!


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## michael rauls (Oct 14, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> My instructor did not want me going near sims during initial training.


That is certainly another perspective to consider.
What gave me the idea was there have been a couple guys in the news recently that having never flown before, only practicing in simulators were able to steel and successfuly fly in one case a rather large/ complex multi engine aircraft and fly them successfully( not that I plan on steeling aircraft or anything else for that matter) so it got me thinking that a good sim might prepare you for flying in the same way driving a car around in an empty parking lot kinda prepares you to drive on the street. That is you could learn the basic thought process to become automatic in a safe environment thereby, at least theoretically, avoiding actually doing those motions and procedures in response to sensory input for the first time in a less safe environment. Like one where it would be possible to end up as a heap of ruble at the end of the runway which would be embarrassing at the verry least.
To put it another way, its one thing to watch someone tell you when this happens do that, when that happens do this, no matter how many times there still is a brain wireing process that needs to take place when you actually do those things in response to sensory input.
Best example I can give for this kind of going through the motions in response to tactile and visual input is learning jiu jitsu( similar to wrestling but I would say more technical and less athleticism dependant) with a passive partner first(called a uke) before actually rolling with a fully resistant opponent. It really helps. It's one thing to watch the instructor say do this, do that and see him demonstrate. It's quite another to do the movements with an oponent even a passive one. Then when its time to actually roll your not trying to learn the muscle memory at the same time your getting clobbered by your oponent. The feel is of course different with a fully resistant opponent but you know at least the basic motions to go through instinctively already because you already have done them.
I thought the same learning process might work well with learning to fly but it's sounding like maybe not so much.
On a final note, aren't there better simulators than a desk top. Ones that you actually get into that would give you more realistic sensory input to learn with?
Thanks again.


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## special ed (Oct 14, 2018)

Our model club president, a retired auto mechanic, had never heard Fix it again Tony for Fiats, he says because he did not work on them. His name is Tony.


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## special ed (Oct 14, 2018)

In regards to sims and flight training, when in Civil Air Patrol (mid 1950s) some cadets received sponsors for flight training to solo. The instructor, after the first cadet was given a simulated engine failure and the cadet put the nose down instinctively, asked how he knew to do that. The kid said he built and flew models. After that the instructor added models to ground school.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 14, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> That is certainly another perspective to consider.
> What gave me the idea was there have been a couple guys in the news recently that having never flown before, only practicing in simulators were able to steel and successfuly fly in one case a rather large/ complex multi engine aircraft and fly them successfully( not that I plan on steeling aircraft or anything else for that matter) so it got me thinking that a good sim might prepare you for flying in the same way driving a car around in an empty parking lot kinda prepares you to drive on the street. That is you could learn the basic thought process to become automatic in a safe environment thereby, at least theoretically, avoiding actually doing those motions and procedures in response to sensory input for the first time in a less safe environment. Like one where it would be possible to end up as a heap of ruble at the end of the runway which would be embarrassing at the verry least.
> To put it another way, its one thing to watch someone tell you when this happens do that, when that happens do this, no matter how many times there still is a brain wireing process that needs to take place when you actually do those things in response to sensory input.
> Best example I can give for this kind of going through the motions in response to tactile and visual input is learning jiu jitsu( similar to wrestling but I would say more technical and less athleticism dependant) with a passive partner first(called a uke) before actually rolling with a fully resistant opponent. It really helps. It's one thing to watch the instructor say do this, do that and see him demonstrate. It's quite another to do the movements with an oponent even a passive one. Then when its time to actually roll your not trying to learn the muscle memory at the same time your getting clobbered by your oponent. The feel is of course different with a fully resistant opponent but you know at least the basic motions to go through instinctively already because you already have done them.
> ...



Honestly, despite these recent events, sims are good for teaching procedure like for instrument flying, but nothing beats the real thing.

My instructor told me that for the private license they don’t do much. He wanted me to fly the “couch” though, by visualizing in my head the steps for landing or performing stall maneuvers.

And yes there are full motion sims that are amazing. They are too expensive though for most flight schools offering private licenses. Also the FAA does not alloow simulator time to count for the private license.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 14, 2018)

special ed said:


> In regards to sims and flight training, when in Civil Air Patrol (mid 1950s) some cadets received sponsors for flight training to solo. The instructor, after the first cadet was given a simulated engine failure and the cadet put the nose down instinctively, asked how he knew to do that. The kid said he built and flew models. After that the instructor added models to ground school.



Most flight schools use models in ground instruction. It is great to visualize maneuvers before doing them in the plane.

I question the nose down maneuver though. In an engine out, you want to set the plane up for best glide angle so that you do not descend too quickly, and have time to fly the plane, access the situation and find a suitable landing area. You don’t want to increase you airspeed and descend more quickly. You do not want to get “behind” the plane. Doing so is a recipe for disaster and will get you killed.


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 14, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> My instructor did not want me going near sims during initial training.


I concur with your instructor. Wise attitude. But fact is, they will go play with their toy regardless of what you say. The give-away is their fixation on the instrument panel and their total obliviousness to external visual cues to the aircraft's flight condition, as well as zero traffic awareness.
Cheers,
Wes

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 14, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> I concur with your instructor. Wise attitude. But fact is, they will go play with their toy regardless of what you say. The give-away is their fixation on the instrument panel and their total obliviousness to external visual cues to the aircraft's flight condition, as well as zero traffic awareness.
> Cheers,
> Wes



I was going to buy a sim until he told me that. Still have not bought one today...


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 14, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I question the nose down maneuver though. In an engine out, you want to set the plane up for best glide angle so that you do not descend too quickly, and have time to fly the plane, access the situation and find a suitable landing area.


I don't question it at all. Any pilot, student or pro, experiences an OMIGOD moment when a totally unexpected engine failure occurs, especially if accompanied by special effects such as smoke, vibration, and oil on the windshield and loud bangs and pieces coming out of the engine compartment. The airplane's energy margin above stall disappears rapidly, especially in a climb. A pushover is a good immediate action while the pilot's sphincter unclutches, and the student needs to know and instinctively go to the proper sight picture for best glide. My favorite time to pull the engine was in a Vy climb.
Cheers,
Wes


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 14, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> I don't question it at all. Any pilot, student or pro, experiences an OMIGOD moment when a totally unexpected engine failure occurs, especially if accompanied by special effects such as smoke, vibration, and oil on the windshield and loud bangs and pieces coming out of the engine compartment. The airplane's energy margin above stall disappears rapidly, especially in a climb. A pushover is a good immediate action while the pilot's sphincter unclutches, and the student needs to know and instinctively go to the proper sight picture for best glide. My favorite time to pull the engine was in a Vy climb.
> Cheers,
> Wes



Yeah I guess I never really thought of it that way. We discussed the engine out maneuver in the classroom at length before hand, so going to best glide was like 2nd nature to me. Of course every situation is different, so I can see where you are coming from.

Engine fire though, yeah nose it over definately and try and get that fire out.


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 14, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Engine fire though, yeah nose it over definately and try and get that fire out.


Mixture idle cutoff, boost pump off, fuel selector off, steep slip to keep the flames out of your face. Pray like hell!
Cheers,
Wes

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 14, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Mixture idle cutoff, boost pump off, fuel selector off, steep slip to keep the flames out of your face. Pray like hell!
> Cheers,
> Wes



First time I found the steep slip a lil unnerving. Just seemed so weird. I kept thinking “when are you going to tell me the engine fire is out”? lol


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## michael rauls (Oct 14, 2018)

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the input.
Sounds like a sim might be good for familiaization with procedures and basic movements but leave the mind open for a lot more sensory input that will need to be managed and appropriately reacted to.
Maybe a good learning tool as long as one is aware of its limitations.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 14, 2018)

When I was in school, Driver's Ed was a full semester that started with bookwork, lectures and films, like "Red Asphalt".
We then had to apply for a Learner's Permit and then there was some basic behind the wheel time with both a manual transmission Chevrolet Chevette and an automatic transmission Ford Fairmont.
This was also coupled with a basic overview of an automobile's function and maintenance, like checking the oil, periodic inspection of the tires, how to change a tire and so on.

Another thing that was stressed, was "sweeping" the gauges and then checking the mirriors periodically, making sure there wasn't a vehicle in your blind-spot and how to look two cars ahead in traffic (the vehicle two cars ahead puts on the brakes, you do too) and how to maintain a two second buffer between you and the car ahead.

All common sense, but valuable skills for defensive driving which aren't taught these days. Matter of favt, California schools rarely offer Driver's Ed anymore and the Driving Schools have a student take an online course, a few hours behind the wheel and then they go to DMV for their license. They are whoefully underskilled when they hit the road, now.

And it shows.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 14, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Thanks guys. I really appreciate the input.
> Sounds like a sim might be good for familiaization with procedures and basic movements but leave the mind open for a lot more sensory input that will need to be managed and appropriately reacted to.
> Maybe a good learning tool as long as one is aware of its limitations.



Honestly, it will not help much with the PPL procedures. It’s with instruments were it comes into play.

As Xbe02Drvr (who was an instructor) pointed out those who use the PC sims will stare too much at the instruments when they should be outside flying the plane. A PPL pilot is under VFR rules, Instruments is under IFR. That is where a sim can help, and the reason the FAA allows a certain number of sim hours to count toward your instrument rating.

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## michael rauls (Oct 14, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> When I was in school, Driver's Ed was a full semester that started with bookwork, lectures and films, like "Red Asphalt".
> We then had to apply for a Learner's Permit and then there was some basic behind the wheel time with both a manual transmission Chevrolet Chevette and an automatic transmission Ford Fairmont.
> This was also coupled with a basic overview of an automobile's function and maintenance, like checking the oil, periodic inspection of the tires, how to change a tire and so on.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more with those last two sentences especially. Up In the cab of a large truck 11 hours a day you really get a birds eye view or the crazy @$%& people do. 
I won't bore everyone with a list of examples but, holly mackerel, it's truly stunning sometimes.


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## Tieleader (Oct 14, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Couldn't agree more with those last two sentences especially. Up In the cab of a large truck 11 hours a day you really get a birds eye view or the crazy @$%& people do.
> I won't bore everyone with a list of examples but, holly mackerel, it's truly stunning sometimes.


Maybe not the whole list ,but what was the BEST one so far?


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## michael rauls (Oct 14, 2018)

Tieleader said:


> Maybe not the whole list ,but what was the BEST one so far?


Well I've seen more than a few people reading a newspaper or book while scootin along at 60 mph in heavy traffic. Twice in about 30 years I saw women go buy me putting on make up and then just drive off the road immediately in front of me.( one of these drove up a steep embankment and ended up teetering over the edge just like tou see in the movies only the embankment wasnt all that high. Maybe 10 or 15 feet). I stopped my truck and climbed up the embankment and helped her out of her car( had to bend down a small tree first as she had plowed through a row of freshly planted trees on the way up and now she was pinned inside by one against her door)
Then you have the obligatory couple doing what couples do normally at home or maybe hotel room but instead doing it in a compact car zooming down the road at 60 or 70 mph. Seen that a few times.
There you have a few of the more choice examples I can think of off the top of my head.


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## special ed (Oct 14, 2018)

I mentioned in the 1950s I was a CAP cadet and I was also one of the cadets who was sponsored for flight lessons. One of the most valuable things I learned was to keep your head on a swivel constantly scanning which I still use today in parking lots. Mentally I'm in the landing pattern and the women in the shopping center are trying to kill me. One thing an instructor did way back then that made me lose confidence in him. was when he had me do engine outs over a closed strip. I knew you weren't supposed to let the wheels touch when Xs were painted on the concrete but he insisted on a roll out but the final incident was at the same session his last engine out was as we took off he chopped the throttle at about 100 feet and when I setup for straight ahead into the weeds He yelled No No took the stick did a near hammerhead 180 back to the strip. I didn't think I had enough hours yet for that so I waited for his partner after that.

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## Tieleader (Oct 15, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Well I've seen more than a few people reading a newspaper or book while scootin along at 60 mph in heavy traffic. Twice in about 30 years I saw women go buy me putting on make up and then just drive off the road immediately in front of me.( one of these drove up a steep embankment and ended up teetering over the edge just like tou see in the movies only the embankment wasnt all that high. Maybe 10 or 15 feet). I stopped my truck and climbed up the embankment and helped her out of her car( had to bend down a small tree first as she had plowed through a row of freshly planted trees on the way up and now she was pinned inside by one against her door)
> Then you have the obligatory couple doing what couples do normally at home or maybe hotel room but instead doing it in a compact car zooming down the road at 60 or 70 mph. Seen that a few times.
> There you have a few of the more choice examples I can think of off the top of my head.


Dang! The more I think about it the more I'm going to become a pedestrian. No wait, slower target...

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## fubar57 (Oct 15, 2018)

Probably better to stay in the house. I've seen a few videos where pedestrians were hit by vehicles they never saw coming


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## fubar57 (Oct 15, 2018)

Having said that.........


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## Peter Gunn (Oct 15, 2018)

Sent my son to son to Skip Barbers up at Road Atlanta, I've been through there a couple of times, invaluable, take the one day or send the kid to the one day teen driver course.

Want a real groin hardening experience, take one of the Racing School courses... It ain't an F-15 but it's as much fun as you can have with you pants on in a car.


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## michael rauls (Oct 15, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> Having said that.........
> 
> View attachment 513161​


Holly mackerel ! I'm really curious how that guy in the 4th picture ended up on the roof.
.


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## Tieleader (Oct 15, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Holly mackerel ! I'm really curious how that guy in the 4th picture ended up on the roof.
> .


Same here!


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## Tieleader (Oct 15, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> Having said that.........
> 
> View attachment 513161​


Jeez, Fubar, you're really making me paranoid. I'm starting to regret that my parents ever meet...

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## GrauGeist (Oct 15, 2018)

Here's another, Geo - a car hauling down 17th street in Santa Ana (California) managed to pull this off...


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## fubar57 (Oct 15, 2018)

Another "hold my beer and watch this" moment

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## Tieleader (Oct 15, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> Here's another, Geo - a car hauling down 17th street in Santa Ana (California) managed to pull this off...
> 
> View attachment 513167


Hey, lets test out out the new RATO I installed on my Honda!


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 15, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> First time I found the steep slip a lil unnerving. Just seemed so weird. I kept thinking “when are you going to tell me the engine fire is out”? lol


Another one of those gyrations that needs to be reduced from an "Omigod" to an "I can do this!"
I found it useful to minimize crabs and emphasize slips in crosswind landing practice. Removes the weirdness factor. In fact as an exercise, my students and I would practice one wheel touch and goes in a crosswind. Essentially this was flying the plane down the runway in a slip with the upwind wheel rolling down the centerline while maintaining a balance of power and crossed controls to keep that wheel rolling straight with no lateral skidding. Not an exercise I would recommend for a nugget CFI, and students and private pilots were forbidden to practice it solo, but it sure polished their skills and built their confidence. Definitely took away the weirdness factor where slips were concerned.
Cheers,
Wes

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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 15, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Maybe a good learning tool as long as one is aware of its limitations.


And you heard it here first. Having heard the drawbacks of the sim, you're in a position to intelligently minimize them. Choose a plane that's a likely flight school trainer and install it on your sim. Get hold of the OEM version of that plane's Pilot Operating Handbook (NOT the Microsoft version!!), a basic flight school Private Pilot syllabus, and an appropriate VFR chart for your area. My favorite back in the day was William Kershner's Private Pilot Handbook. Read everything in Kershner (or whatever you did get) right up to the Private checkride, then go back and read everything up to solo again.
Now get out your POH and read about the airplane. Learn its procedures and limitations, looking back at your private handbook and inserting your airplane's parameters into the maneuvers described.
Now it's time to think about the sim. Every time before firing up the sim, run yourself mentally through the preflight inspection procedure described in the plane's POH. Once you've completed the cockpit check, get out your checklists (You mean you didn't print out and laminate the checklists from the POH? Tsk,tsk!) Now go through the "Before Start" and "Engine Start" checklists, get your motor running, then run the "Before Taxi" checklist. Now on this first lesson, we're not going to fly, just taxi around and get used to ground handling. At some point we're going to run the "Before Takeoff" checklist, but not take off. This is all about familiarization. You're going to have to go through this whole process (except the "no takeoff" part) every time you go flying, so get used to it.
When you actually do get airborne in your sim try to fly by reference to the outside picture rather than the inside gages. Learn what visual attitudes and power settings give you what performance, then try to fly "eyes out" with only occasional glances at the gages to confirm that you're on speed and altitude. Remember, pitch controls speed and power controls altitude, and fun makes it all happen.
Cheers,
Wes

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## michael rauls (Oct 15, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> And you heard it here first. Having heard the drawbacks of the sim, you're in a position to intelligently minimize them. Choose a plane that's a likely flight school trainer and install it on your sim. Get hold of the OEM version of that plane's Pilot Operating Handbook (NOT the Microsoft version!!), a basic flight school Private Pilot syllabus, and an appropriate VFR chart for your area. My favorite back in the day was William Kershner's Private Pilot Handbook. Read everything in Kershner (or whatever you did get) right up to the Private checkride, then go back and read everything up to solo again.
> Now get out your POH and read about the airplane. Learn its procedures and limitations, looking back at your private handbook and inserting your airplane's parameters into the maneuvers described.
> Now it's time to think about the sim. Every time before firing up the sim, run yourself mentally through the preflight inspection procedure described in the plane's POH. Once you've completed the cockpit check, get out your checklists (You mean you didn't print out and laminate the checklists from the POH? Tsk,tsk!) Now go through the "Before Start" and "Engine Start" checklists, get your motor running, then run the "Before Taxi" checklist. Now on this first lesson, we're not going to fly, just taxi around and get used to ground handling. At some point we're going to run the "Before Takeoff" checklist, but not take off. This is all about familiarization. You're going to have to go through this whole process (except the "no takeoff" part) every time you go flying, so get used to it.
> When you actually do get airborne in your sim try to fly by reference to the outside picture rather than the inside gages. Learn what visual attitudes and power settings give you what performance, then try to fly "eyes out" with only occasional glances at the gages to confirm that you're on speed and altitude. Remember, pitch controls speed and power controls altitude, and fun makes it all happen.
> ...


Much thanks for that. I feel your post is so valuable im actually going to print it out and keep it for a roadmap so to speak.
Verry nice of you to take the time to help me out.__


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 15, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> And you heard it here first. Having heard the drawbacks of the sim, you're in a position to intelligently minimize them. Choose a plane that's a likely flight school trainer and install it on your sim. Get hold of the OEM version of that plane's Pilot Operating Handbook (NOT the Microsoft version!!), a basic flight school Private Pilot syllabus, and an appropriate VFR chart for your area. My favorite back in the day was William Kershner's Private Pilot Handbook. Read everything in Kershner (or whatever you did get) right up to the Private checkride, then go back and read everything up to solo again.
> Now get out your POH and read about the airplane. Learn its procedures and limitations, looking back at your private handbook and inserting your airplane's parameters into the maneuvers described.
> Now it's time to think about the sim. Every time before firing up the sim, run yourself mentally through the preflight inspection procedure described in the plane's POH. Once you've completed the cockpit check, get out your checklists (You mean you didn't print out and laminate the checklists from the POH? Tsk,tsk!) Now go through the "Before Start" and "Engine Start" checklists, get your motor running, then run the "Before Taxi" checklist. Now on this first lesson, we're not going to fly, just taxi around and get used to ground handling. At some point we're going to run the "Before Takeoff" checklist, but not take off. This is all about familiarization. You're going to have to go through this whole process (except the "no takeoff" part) every time you go flying, so get used to it.
> When you actually do get airborne in your sim try to fly by reference to the outside picture rather than the inside gages. Learn what visual attitudes and power settings give you what performance, then try to fly "eyes out" with only occasional glances at the gages to confirm that you're on speed and altitude. Remember, pitch controls speed and power controls altitude, and fun makes it all happen.
> ...



I was waiting for the _“Now its time to think about your sim. Turn it off...”_

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## michael rauls (Oct 15, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I was waiting for the _“Now its time to think about your sim. Turn it off...”_


Just a bit off topic( since when did that ever stop me) but my ratings bar has been absent all day. Just curious if its a problem with my particular phone or the site. Do you know if others are having the same issue right now?


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## fubar57 (Oct 15, 2018)




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## special ed (Oct 15, 2018)

Yes, "like" is the only choice.


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## fubar57 (Oct 15, 2018)

Sorry, misunderstood. I'm using a laptop with mouse. I hover the cursor over the brown like bar and they all show up


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## special ed (Oct 15, 2018)

That's the answer. Everything OK. Never mind.


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## michael rauls (Oct 15, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> View attachment 513194​


Ok, I got it. Didn't realize when you hit the like button the rattlings bar would pop up.
Guess I shoulda thought of trying that before asking.
Sometimes I don't see the forest for all the trees.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 15, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Ok, I got it. Didn't realize when you hit the like button the rattlings bar would pop up.
> Guess I shoulda thought of trying that before asking.
> Sometimes I don't see the forest for all the trees.


The ratings bar was there earlier today and then it disappeared and that mysterious brown "like" showed up.
The indicator bar below the avatar is still missing, however and the trophy points and such are in stacked rectangles instead of a row of neat boxes (as shows up in Geo's screenshot)...may have to point 

 horseUSA
to this conversation and get his thoughts.

I'll be able to compare it all when I'm on the computer in a little while.


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 15, 2018)

special ed said:


> One thing an instructor did way back then that made me lose confidence in him. was when he had me do engine outs over a closed strip. I knew you weren't supposed to let the wheels touch when Xs were painted on the concrete but he insisted on a roll out but the final incident was at the same session his last engine out was as we took off he chopped the throttle at about 100 feet and when I setup for straight ahead into the weeds He yelled No No took the stick did a near hammerhead 180 back to the strip.


I learned to fly on a runway with Xs on it. The Naval Air Station where I learned had a runway that they no longer maintained to tactical jet standards, so they painted gold Xs on it outlined in blue, and made it the Navy Flying Club runway. All was well and good until the night (couple of years after I left) when an S-2 belonging to a west coast squadron with a desk-driver senior Commander at the controls came out of a TACAN circle-to-land approach at night in a storm and touched down on the wrong runway. About 200 yards beyond the departure end was the "O" Club golf course, and the Commander parked his "stoof" in the caddy shack. Now you would think this would put an end to the old man's flight skins, but no, they found a way to pin it on the JG in the right seat, since he had done a tour as a "plowback" flight instructor at Pensacola, and theoretically should have been command pilot.

Ah, hammerheads to the runway! I used to deliberately do those when it became necessary to convince an obstinate student of the unwisdom of attempting them. When you get through 90° of turn and the ground is coming up fast it becomes pretty clear pretty quick that without power you aren't going to make it. Don't even think of trying this in a plane you have even the slightest doubt about. We had the contract for the local AFROTC flight program, and the embryo zoomies all thought they were junior Chuck Yeagers. I found that doing this demonstration just once generally lasted through about three years worth of cadets. Nobody else ever pushed me that far.
Cheers,
Wes

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## michael rauls (Oct 15, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> The ratings bar was there earlier today and then it disappeared and that mysterious brown "like" showed up.
> The indicator bar below the avatar is still missing, however and the trophy points and such are in stacked rectangles instead of a row of neat boxes (as shows up in Geo's screenshot)...may have to point @horseUSA to this conversation and get his thoughts.
> 
> I'll be able to compare it all when I'm on the computer in a little while.


Ok thanks. I guess I was just so used to seeing it in the old format when it went to the new one it just didn't occur to me to try tapping the like icon to see if that would bring up the ratings bar. I thought it must be a glitch with the new system.
Guess I kinda missed the obvious there.

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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 15, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I was waiting for the _“Now its time to think about your sim. Turn it off...”_


Hey, what do you expect from a former TD, huh?
The only thing "bad" about a sim, Microsoft to Link, desktop to full motion, is its misuse.
Cheers,
Wes


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## GrauGeist (Oct 15, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Ok thanks. I guess I was just so used to seeing it in the old format when it went to the new one it just didn't occur to me to try tapping the like icon to see if that would bring up the ratings bar. I thought it must be a glitch with the new system.
> Guess I kinda missed the obvious there.


The "expanding" ratings bar might take some getting used to, but I think it'll go a long way to preventing the accidental negatives from mobile users.


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 15, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> The "expanding" ratings bar might take some getting used to, but I think it'll go a long way to preventing the accidental negatives from mobile users.


Wouldn't it be a little less confusing if the button to bring up the ratings bar had more than one icon (thumbs up and down?) and the word "Ratings" on it?
Cheers,
Wes


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## GrauGeist (Oct 15, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Wouldn't it be a little less confusing if the button to bring up the ratings bar had more than one icon (thumbs up and down?) and the word "Ratings" on it?
> Cheers,
> Wes


That would make more sense, but hell, I didn't even know what was going on until I got on my computer and moused over it and the rating bar appeared, as the ipad doesn't allow mouseover events.

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## special ed (Oct 16, 2018)

The acft was an Aeronca Tri-traveler. That particular instructor was slightly built and I weighed less than 130 pounds. When he previously tried to demonstrate power on stalls, the bird wouldn't so he had to yank the stick over to simulate. You guys in this forum bring back great memories. Thanks.

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## special ed (Oct 16, 2018)

Sorry for the disjointed Replys. I just started investigating the items at the bottom for their possibilities. My lack of knowledge about the possibilities comes from my being a retired electronic tech. i.e. if you don't know what it does, don't mess with it.


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 16, 2018)

special ed said:


> if you don't know what it does, don't mess with it.


SPROING!


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## P-39 Expert (Oct 21, 2018)

P-39 was the best fighter in WWII.



That should get this thread back on track.


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## special ed (Oct 21, 2018)

We should have told the enemy and our allies


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 21, 2018)

P-39 Expert said:


> P-39 was the best fighter in WWII.


Sorry guy, all the combustibles in this concoction have been oxidized already. No more fireworks to be found here. This flight is off target cold, winchester. RTB.
Cheers,
Wes


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