# PRAYER



## Brunner (Apr 1, 2005)

Please, forgive me posting the topic COMPLETELY unrelated to the site, but I had to do it.

I would like to ask all of you, even if you are not Roman Catholics to join us, the Catholics and Poles in the prayer for the soul of our beloved Pope John Paul II, who is about to abandon this world and to be welcomed by the Almghty God in heaven.


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## Medvedya (Apr 1, 2005)

Yes, it's a sad thing, but everyone knew it was coming.

I think people should celebrate his life and achivements in this world as well as mourn his passing.


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## Erich (Apr 1, 2005)

rest assured if Pope John Paul knew Jesus Christ as his saviour and Lord you have nothing to worry about. praying for his soul right now will not do anything to help him except to comfort your ownselves.

Remember gents he is just a man just like you an me


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## Brunner (Apr 1, 2005)

We should be happy, that he is about to reach eternity, I know that, but most people including myself can't prevent themselves from thinking:
"why does he abandon us? we will be orphans without our beloved father".
I met John Paul II several times during his pilgrimage visits to Poland and I can't imagine what will be when all is over.
Yes, people should celebrate his life and his achievements, as he have done to the world, not only to the Church, more than most politicians. As one Polish priest said today, the Pope wanted to create a single Human Family. And watching the news broadcasts from all of the world I have an impression that he managed to do that.


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## Medvedya (Apr 1, 2005)

I'm not R.C myself, but I thought seeing him at Easter was terribly sad. 

I can't help but think that he ought to have taken it more easy on the work. His schedules would have been punishing even for a much younger person in perfect health.


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## Brunner (Apr 1, 2005)

I've heard that even today in the morning he nominated 18 new bishops.


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## Erich (Apr 1, 2005)

you'll be an orphan without your father ? The only true Father is the Lord God himself. As I said any and all popes are just mere men like all of us. there position was elected by other men such as he from a collective.

If anything pray for the worlds leaders and the strife amongst all the nations and an end to terrorism


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 1, 2005)

He'll be with the creator soon. Forever at peace. [-o<


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## Medvedya (Apr 1, 2005)

From what I've read about him, he seriously liked the great outdoors and hill walking - in fact he wore D.M hiking boots under his robes! It's true!


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## Brunner (Apr 1, 2005)

yes, especially he loves mountains.


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## Erich (Apr 1, 2005)

ah a lover of mountains.....................good choice. Closer communique' with the Lord.

Been a Mountain guide since ? geez has it been that long.....ooooooooops I am letting some of my past show.


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## Medvedya (Apr 1, 2005)

Pope John Paul II walks along a mountain trail during a trip in the Italian Alps near Les Combes on August 1st, 2000. 

Not bad for a chap of his age! Told you the D.M boots thing was true!


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## Erich (Apr 1, 2005)

what no Camelbak ? seriously a great shot and wonderful country. thanks to the Heavenly Father.....


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## Brunner (Apr 1, 2005)

Medvedya said:


> Pope John Paul II walks along a mountain trail during a trip in the Italian Alps near Les Combes on August 1st, 2000.
> 
> Not bad for a chap of his age! Told you the D.M boots thing was true!



Of his age and of his poor health...

Erich, 

for me, for millions of Poles and for hundreds of millions of people around the world he IS NOT an ordinary man. For us John Paul II, the Holy Father is somehow truly a father, a spiritual leader, an example how to live, how to communicate with other people, other religions, other cultures and how to suffer with dignity.

It can seem funny but that's the way we feel


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## Erich (Apr 1, 2005)

your example and for all of us is Jesus Christ. No-one on this earth can replace Him although we try as we might as we are mortal sinners.

I know perfectly well how Catholics feel and I mean no disresepct to your faith and views but I am not in agreeance. You do not answer to the Popes remember that...........


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## Brunner (Apr 1, 2005)

Nobody is replacing Jesus Christ on the Earth. The Pope, after St Peter is Christ's regent here, among people.


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## Erich (Apr 1, 2005)

Brunner I am going to have to disagree again, we are all chosen friend, that's all part of our faith in Jesus Christ. We are all equal in Him.......

ok I am going to leave this alone......

cheers, and hopeful it has made a few of you think on the matter


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 2, 2005)

Dont worry Erich, I agree where you are coming from. Please dont take me wrong when I say this. I do not wish death upon anyone but I will not shead a tear. In fact as Erich said I will leave this one alone, I dont want to get into a reliegous argument.


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## trackend (Apr 5, 2005)

I respect your request and your beliefs Erich and I am very sorry you have lost your Pope. 
However my own opinion is that I prefer not to enter into any religious discussions regarding anybodies personnel beliefs.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 5, 2005)

I agree.


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## Erich (Apr 5, 2005)

sorry Track but he is and was not 'my' pope. I do not believe in man but in Jesus Christ alone. As you wish, no-one has to get on a religious debate here unless they want to. Just trying to understand the Roman Catholic way of thinking which to me sounds very unscriptural.

no problemo, I am leaving this alone.....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 5, 2005)

Erich's entitled to his opion just as much as you are guys, if this's the way he feels don't try and change him........


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 5, 2005)

Thing is though that Religion can be a very touchy subject. To be honest I think its best to leave it as some people are easily offended.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 5, 2005)

should this thread be locked??


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 5, 2005)

If everyone else thinks so.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 5, 2005)

hands up lads??


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## Medvedya (Apr 5, 2005)

Well, I'll be sad to do so, because on any other boards, this thread would have been locked before you could say 'incense'.

I take pride in this being a 'open forum' - meaning that the mods here tidy stuff up, and organise new things for you all to use, not chuck their weight around on some saddo power-trip. 

If all the major posters (you all know who you are guys) are in agreement on this though, then it'll be brought to a close.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 5, 2005)

but you have to considder that some of this stuff may offend people...........


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## Medvedya (Apr 5, 2005)

I know, that's why I'll lock it if everyone agrees.


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 5, 2005)

Personally I dont mind.


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 5, 2005)

Me either, but I will say this:

I may not be Roman Catholic or particularly religious, but I believe Pope John Paul II was an outstanding man with a big heart. I'm saddened by his passing.


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## Erich (Apr 5, 2005)

funny that ugly word 'offensive' is rearing it's head almost on every forum that I attend and even moderate. what the hey are we doing on some of the other aviation forum threads ? we do the same gents. the PC forums are so crap-ass insensitve that no one really knows what's in our hearts and if we meant such and such or not.

maybe we need the administrators to make it clear that no religious discussion take place ? what say thee on this ??

I apoligize publically here and now to Brunner if I have offended you in any way shape or form, but had questions I felt needed to be answered.....if possible.

and I'll be most interested whom will be able to fill John Paul's big shoes. It will be tough.....

v/r Erich


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## Brunner (Apr 5, 2005)

Erich said:


> funny that ugly word 'offensive' is rearing it's head almost on every forum that I attend and even moderate. what the hey are we doing on some of the other aviation forum threads ? we do the same gents. the PC forums are so crap-ass insensitve that no one really knows what's in our hearts and if we meant such and such or not.
> 
> maybe we need the administrators to make it clear that no religious discussion take place ? what say thee on this ??
> 
> ...




Erich, you didn't offend me, maybe U are right that this is not a place for religious discussions, so I'm sorry I started the topic...but it was stronger.


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## trackend (Apr 6, 2005)

Sorry Erich I should have said Brunner I shall definitely have to get some new glasses.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 6, 2005)

yes i don't think we should have religious discussions.......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 6, 2005)

I agree no religious discussions because I know some of the things I would write would offend people and that is the last thing I wish to do.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 6, 2005)

well then don't write them


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## Erich (Apr 6, 2005)

not sure if any of our esteemed members have been following the men that may be able to fill the Popes shoes but I find it interesting one gent a German who has been called the Panzercardinal as a nickname.......what is that all about ?

E ~


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 6, 2005)

Someones idea of a joke, eh? 
There are actually three Canadian cardinals officially in the running too, but none of them expect to be seriously considered.

Somehow I can't quite imagine a Canadian pope. 
"Bless ya my children. How's it goin', eh?"


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## evangilder (Apr 7, 2005)

"I bless you in the name of the father, eh, and the son, eh and the holy spirit, eh." Then he goes to have a Molson.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 7, 2005)

I say leave it open, but keep things calm in here if so.



Anyways, about the Pope...

a)It's said he's gone, and so am I.

b)Mehmet Ali Agca (I'm not saying why he's noted, that's why there's Google.  ) wants to attend Karol/John Paul II/the pope's (whatever floats your boat ) funeral!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 7, 2005)

what's a "molsen"??


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 7, 2005)

A poor excuse for beer.


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## evangilder (Apr 7, 2005)

It was the only Canadian beer that I could think of off the top of my head. It was either that or LaBatts Blue.


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 7, 2005)

Which also tastes like piss. 
Not that I've tasted piss.


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## evangilder (Apr 7, 2005)

I hear ya, if you did taste piss, it would probably taste like a LaBatts Blue! When I lived in Wisconsin, the stores liked to sell "Canadian Beers" for some reason. I put it in quotes because they all tasted the same...BAD. I guess that was one way to get them to drink the Milwaukee brewed beer!


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 7, 2005)

Mind you, not _all_ Canadian beer is horrible. Like I've said before, I'm just not a big lager fan.

I wonder what the pope would have liked, had he been a beer drinker. 
(Just to keep things semi-on topic.  )


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## evangilder (Apr 7, 2005)

Good question. Not to worry, I know Canada has good beer, they only sold the crappy ones where I lived.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 7, 2005)

Erich said:


> not sure if any of our esteemed members have been following the men that may be able to fill the Popes shoes but I find it interesting one gent a German who has been called the Panzercardinal as a nickname.......what is that all about ?
> 
> E ~



Here is what I could dig up on it.

Joseph Ratzinger
Age: 72 
The vice-dean of the College of Cardinals is German-born and was once archbishop of Munich. Known as "the Panzer Cardinal," the conservative Ratzinger is powerful in the Vatican but may be too close to the pope for the cardinals' taste. 

If the conclave is true to its conservative makeup, it could defy its liberal critics by choosing 77-year-old Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the prefect of the congregation of the doctrine of the faith. 

As John Paul II’s papacy continued longer than anyone expected, Ratzinger’s age is one of his biggest advantages. Some in the church believe that after quarter of a century with a single pontiff, a short and transitional papacy might prove a prudent choice. 

Even though church liberals consider him to be a hardline ideologue and have derogatively named him the “panzer cardinal” he is widely held to be the outstanding figure in the 21st-century church. The Pope chose him to lead the stations of the cross on Good Friday and was seen to have been a sign that he was telling the other cardinals: “This is the man I want to succeed me.” The choice of Ratzinger would be the most powerful restating of John Paul’s legacy and express the determination of the Catholic Church’s leadership to continue with his hardline style.


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## Erich (Apr 7, 2005)

thanks Adler for the run down on the German chap. Did you guys know he served in the Flak arm during the war ? army, navy, luftwaffe, hj ? not sure

E


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 7, 2005)

Not sure myself.


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## evangilder (Apr 7, 2005)

He must have been pretty young then. If he is 72, then he would have been born in 1933. I knew that had some young kids in home defence, but that young?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 7, 2005)

I think that was a type he is actually 77 now
I think he was born in 27 or 29. My wife does not like him, she thinks he is too conservative in his ideas about woman and employment and religion and she is Catholic her self.


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## evangilder (Apr 7, 2005)

Ah, okay, that makes sense then. Wow, a pope that was a Flak gunner. That would be an interesting story. But I suppose that should not be a huge surprise that someone of that age served during WWII. I bet he probably has some stories to tell.


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## Erich (Apr 7, 2005)

yes I would love to hear about his career during the war. and yes he is known for his hard line conservativeism. Curious what his views are on women ? ........... roles in society or at home or both ?


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 7, 2005)

An ex-flak gunner? Very, very interesting! As for the hard line conservatism, many Catholics would undoubtedly see that as a major step backwards, don't you think?

Wow! I'm actually participating in a religious discussion!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 8, 2005)




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## Brunner (Apr 8, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> As for the hard line conservatism, many Catholics would undoubtedly see that as a major step backwards, don't you think?



Well, John Paul II wasn't a liberal himself. He was also conservative towards social matters.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 10, 2005)

He was very conservative in ways such as women and employment, women and the church, Priests and families.

This is one reason why my wife does not like the German "Panzer" Kardinal. He is too conservative for her and she hopes as a Catholic that a more liberal Cardinal becomes the Pope and looks to make some reforms.


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## Udet (Apr 11, 2005)

Brunner:

I profoundly respect your, and everybody´s, religious beliefs and ideas.

That last thing I want to argue about is religion; too complex and delicate. Depending on those you might discuss it the issue can be an incendiary one.

I will not put into doubt John Paul II was a man of good faith and open to welcome all those who see and live religion in quite different manners.
Also that he sought peace always is apparently true.

Erich brought up Jesus here.

If I were Jesus, or any of those united in the Godhead, there is a thing i would do for sure: to erase humankind for good and to deeply regret the experiment of having created such creatures.

I can not stand the news, it makes my stomach feel sick to learn of the place I am living in, and I am not referring only to my current residence in Mexico but to the entire god damn planet.

A few months ago I visited San Francisco...jezz...has anyone told the people of San Francisco they are going down? When I say down, I mean DOWN...further down the spiral.

It will sound ridiculous and overgeneralizing, but it seemed like the city has become all about being a queer or a drug addict, or the combination of both.

Drugs, drugs and drugs. Queers, queers and queers. I did not saw anything other than those.

I am a very happy boy. Seasurfing, listening music, differential equations and meeting lots of women make my life an absolutely great one.

Hopefully when I make enough money I will move to a distant wonderful island. Just me and my dog. )


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 11, 2005)

8) I once dreamed of a distant and wonderful land...and I made it exactly as far as Halifax.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 14, 2005)

I dreamed of one also, then I woke up and was asking where did all the girls go?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 20, 2005)

Erich said:


> yes I would love to hear about his career during the war. and yes he is known for his hard line conservativeism. Curious what his views are on women ? ........... roles in society or at home or both ?



There was an artical about him in the paper today. It stated that in 1943 he was drafted as an assistant to a FLAK unit basically to do all there stupid work such as getting wine for the Captain or clean the guns and so forth. He was relieved of this and sent to the Eastern Front in 1944 and then in 1945 he ran away from his unit and was captured by the US Army and was released several weeks later where he returned to Tuebingen Germany to continue his religious studies. I wish I had kept the newspaper it even had a picture of him in his uniform.

December, 1932: Family moves to Traunstein after father came into conflict with local Nazi Party supporters in Tittmoning. 

1941: Enrolled against will in Hitler Youth. Let go shortly after because of his intention to study for the priesthood. 

1943: Drafted as helper for anti-aircraft unit, serves in battery defending BMW plant. 

Sept 10, 1944: Let go from flak service. Returns home to find draft notice for forced labour. 

Sept 20, 1944: Leaves home to dig anti-tank trenches. 

November, 20, 1944: Released from labour force, returns home. Gets army draft notice three weeks later. 

April-May, 1945: Deserts army, returns home. Captured by Americans as war ends. 

June 19, 1945: Released from US POW camp, catches ride home on milk truck.


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## Crippen (Apr 20, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> Which also tastes like piss.
> Not that I've tasted piss.


I nearly fell off mi chair laughing you burk. You really make me chuckle Skim. I am reading through all the religious stuff.... and then comes that, what are you like.

The Cripps view...... Med, CC and Mods galore.....I am Sooooooo proud of you, for not locking this one down.
Religion should be talked about and argued out, otherwise it will 'always' end up being a route to evil. Talking about it will 'ALWAYS' offend some poor sod some where, but 'all' views need to be heard or else no resolve or agreements (common ground) will ever be reached.
That coming from a girl who grew up going to church three times every Sunday. Now all I believe in is 'Me' .....I make it happen, or I bugger it up. Can't blame god, jesus or Les ( joke Les sorry). that is what folk need to accept.
Anyway... I voted for a woman Pope and she didn't get in, I blame vote rigging!!!!


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## Maestro (Apr 20, 2005)

My two cents.

First, I want to say that I'm an Atheist.

For me, the election of "German Shepherd" Ratzinger is only a proof that religion is always on the side of the f*ckers and all they want is to rule the world.

He was enlisted against his will in the Hitler Youth ? Heh ! Let me laugh ! If he didn't wanted to join them, he had two choices : resist (and risk his life) or fly away. If he truly believed in the "Roman Church", he would have chosen one of those two solutions and NOT join the f*ckers. Accepting the enlistment should have disqualified him from becoming Pope. If we trust all of Ex-German soldiers, none of them would have shot on the Allies, but we KNOW it was NOT the case.

An interresting fact is that Ratzinger is a collaborator of the integrist bunch called "Opus Dei". What is the "Opus Dei" ? Well, it's an integrist group within the "Roman Church". What's their goal ? Rule the world by "Catholisizing" the world. The Opus Dei is so strong in Europe and Latin America that the group owns several Universities in Spain, Italy and in Latin America as well as many other locations linked to education (like housings for students) in many countries of the world. It is so strong in Latin America that it is prooved that members of that group were friends with Pinochet (Chily) and it is suspected (sorry for our Brazillian members) that the Brazillian gouvernment IS ruled by the Opus Dei. (Note that you don't need to be a priest to be a made-man of that group.) For the Opus Dei members, all other religions than Catholicism should be erradicated... with the ones who beleives in them.

An other interresting fact : some experts says that the next Pope could be Marc Ouellette (from Québec). It is prooved that this guy IS a made-man of the Opus Dei.

Religion is a crutch and crutches are for weaks. Being not weak, I don't need a f*cker to tell me what I have to do.


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 20, 2005)

Ouellette was in the running _this_ time around too, wasn't he?


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## Maestro (Apr 20, 2005)

Yes, he was.


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## Erich (Apr 20, 2005)

religion is a crutch possibly but not firm faith, and Faith is for the warrior heart.........


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## evangilder (Apr 21, 2005)

Someone once said that there are no atheists in foxholes as well. Saying religion is a crutch is harsh and callous. I have stood in parts of the world where the only thing these people had was their faith. You have your right to be an atheist, but you don't have the right to say that people that follow religion are weak. If I were a religious person, I would take serious offense to that. I am a spiritual person and don't follow any organized religion, but I do believe in a supreme being. I also believe in being tolerant and respectful of the beliefs of others.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 21, 2005)

which is why it's a big iffy having religous disscussions like this........


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 21, 2005)

evangilder said:


> ...don't follow any organized religion, but I do believe in a supreme being. I also believe in being tolerant and respectful of the beliefs of others.


That basically sums it up for me too. It's the man-made institution of the church that I'm not really in to.


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## evangilder (Apr 21, 2005)

It's a very personal thing to each person and some are more sensitive about their faith than others. I have actually studied several different religions while trying to find something that matched the way I feel. I studied Buddhism and Zen, Jo-rei (sp?), Judaism and a few others. I was raised a Methodist, but converted to Judaism about 10 years ago. It fit for me. I have been reading a little on the Kabbala (Jewish Mysticism) while also currently studying Shamanism. So I guess I am a comparative religion person. But I am more spiritual than religious.

My last year or so in the military, I got to see some places where, as I said before, people only had their faith. They lived in shacks that would be substandard to westerners, went to bed hungry often and basicaly lived in poverty the likes of which we don't see in North America. But when it came to Sunday, they would put on their best clothes and go to their services. It gave them a sense of community and purpose but most importantly, hope. You would think these people would be miserable. Surprisingly, they weren't! Crime was very low too. 

It was a real eye opener to me. Faith is a very powerful thing.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 21, 2005)

Crippen said:


> Anyway... I voted for a woman Pope and she didn't get in, I blame vote rigging!!!!



How did you do that, you have to be a cardinal to vote on the pope and to become a pope and by the way only men can be cardinals.  



Maestro said:


> My two cents.
> 
> First, I want to say that I'm an Atheist.
> 
> ...



You can not prove that he did anything wrong. In that case he should be allowed to be pope. Not everyone who served in the German Army did bad things. My Grandfather did not, so is he evil? Neither is Ratzinger in my eyes then. Dont take me wrong I am not Catholic, nor as a German do I like him. As most Germans (yes I say most) do not like him because they want a reformed church and he is very old fashioned. But unless someone can prove he did something wrong then there is no reason why he could not be the pope.



Maestro said:


> An other interresting fact : some experts says that the next Pope could be Marc Ouellette (from Québec). It is prooved that this guy IS a made-man of the Opus Dei.



Sone experts they are. The next pope was already chosen so how then can think he will be the next one. The next one could be in 20 years for all we know.



Maestro said:


> Religion is a crutch and crutches are for weaks. Being not weak, I don't need a f*cker to tell me what I have to do.



Sorry buddy but I am not weak. I am a very strong minden, strong hearted person who does something with there life and does not need anyone either to help me out. But you know what I believe in god. Dont go to church but I believe in god, and I am not weak. *Besides since joining the army I have come to believe that I would rather believe in a god and find out there is not one then not believe in a god and find out there is.*


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## Crippen (Apr 21, 2005)

I sometimes put cardinal in my cider to make it look all red....does that count  
Hey Maestro I admire you convictions m8, Erich Brunner I admire your confirmation to your faith.

Now whos read the De Vinci Code.... bloody good read .... they are turning it into a film with Tom Hanks Audrey Tautou. And Ian McKellen ( as Teabing) directed by Ron Howard. Oh and Christopher Eccleston as Aringarosa ( Med one of mi gut feeling again, that you would like these.... or was it wind again.... ummm prob wind). Tiz A Detective story ....about the Holy grail.
Deception Point ...same written, is full of shit loads of NASA stuff, submarines and the odd F-14 and the like. Just well written the pair of um.


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## Maestro (Apr 21, 2005)

Okay, I think I need to point something out.

When I said : "Religion is a crutch and crutches are for weaks." I was referring mostly to the organization itself. I don't need a guy wearing a dress to tell me what I have to do. Beleive in god if you want. I don't and I don't care.

The lone faith I have is in myself. You learn that when you got a job with a minimum of risk that force you to work alone. When you work alone (as a security officer) in a bank (for example), you know that no one (human or angel) will come to help you if a bad guy breaks in and point is rifle on your head.

That's the same thing if you're doing a Private Investigator job, "tracking" an unfaithful husband. What do you do when he drops in front of you with a baseball bat wanting to swing your head away ? Once again, no one will come to help you. You're on your own.

And Cripps, I haven't read the "Da Vinci Code". But from what I heard of it , it sounds good.


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 21, 2005)

As I said, when it comes to the church as an institution I couldn't care less. In many ways, I feel the same way you do Maestro. I hardly feel that I need men in robes (and women, in several denominations of Christianity) preaching their particular interpretations to me, from a book that was written by men. Too many sects of the church seem all too eager to exploit the faithful for personal gain, in my opinion. Can it be possible to simply buy forgiveness with a large donation and several Hail Marys? I wonder.

However, I do like to believe in a higher being and an afterlife of some sort.


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## Maestro (Apr 22, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> However, I do like to believe in a higher being and an afterlife of some sort.



It's your right and I respect it.

But as I was saying, who needs a pedophile (there is facts to proove that most of Catholic priests are) in robe to tell him what he have to do ?  

All that wants religious institutions is to crush other religions, what ever it is, and rule the world. Christianity, Muslism, Buddism... All the same to me.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 22, 2005)

Crippen said:


> Now whos read the De Vinci Code.... bloody good read ....



Very good book, great eye opener!



Nonskimmer said:


> As I said, when it comes to the church as an institution I couldn't care less. In many ways, I feel the same way you do Maestro. I hardly feel that I need men in robes (and women, in several denominations of Christianity) preaching their particular interpretations to me, from a book that was written by men.



And this I agree with. I believe in god but I do not believe that you have to go to a church to believe in a god. In my opinion god is in you and all around you not in the walls inwhich you worship. I too do not need a book or some man in robe, especially catholic priests or southern baptists that think you can do nothing but read the "good book" and give money to the church. Personally I think the Vatican is nothing more than a Mafia, getting more and more rich. But I do believe in a god.


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## Medvedya (Apr 22, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> or southern baptists that think you can do nothing but read the "good book" and give money to the church.



And remember - all major credit and debit cards accepted. Simply dial 0800 - URDAMNED right now!


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## Maestro (Apr 22, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Personally I think the Vatican is nothing more than a Mafia, getting more and more rich. But I do believe in a god.



Heh... Well, one of my work comrade had a friend who was priest. The priest let all down when he came back from a trip in the Vatican. Apparently the Vatican use the Religion as a commerce.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 24, 2005)

That they do. The Vatican tries to control what the world learns and knows about religion and only wants the world to know what it wants them to know. Another good eye opening movie is Stigmata, it really gets you going. I truely believe people die because they find too much out and what not.


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## Maestro (Apr 24, 2005)

Yeah, just like the Mafia...

- If you get too much curious, I'll break your legs.

- If you tell something to someone, you'll make acquaintance with my buddy "Beretta" and his 15 little 9 mm friends.

- If you go see the police, you'll end deep into the river.

Hmmm... I think I watch too much movies...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 24, 2005)

Same here.


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## Concorde247 (Apr 24, 2005)

Im not a religious person. I dont believe in god or a supreme being. and I dont criticise anyone who does. what i dont like are the religious zealots (of whatever denomination) who believe that their religion is the one true faith, and try to force it on those who dont believe in the same way that they do, through violence or political/business methods.

Pope John Paul was a great humanitarian, who will be missed.


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## Crippen (Apr 24, 2005)

Well said hon.


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## Maestro (Apr 25, 2005)

Agreed.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 25, 2005)

Will agree to that.


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## Concorde247 (Apr 25, 2005)

Thanks folks, I'll get off my soapbox now!!


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## evangilder (Apr 25, 2005)

While I do applaud JPII for his championship for peace, I do find it rather disturbing about what happened here in the states with regards to the pedophile priests. The big problem is the Boston cardinal who was very involved in just moving them from parish to parish to keep the scandal from getting too big, was promoted and moved to Rome. They seemed to care more about the church image than the poor victims.


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## Maestro (Apr 25, 2005)

evangilder said:


> While I do applaud JPII for his championship for peace, I do find it rather disturbing about what happened here in the states with regards to the pedophile priests. The big problem is the Boston cardinal who was very involved in just moving them from parish to parish to keep the scandal from getting too big, was promoted and moved to Rome. They seemed to care more about the church image than the poor victims.



In fact, they DO care more about the church image than the victims. It's well known in the Province I live : 90% of priest are pedophiles. We got a lot of scandals about pedophile priest here.

I can remember of the priest Vadeboncoeur (he got the right name for the job, eh ?) who was caught here but, rather than facing justice, he was transfered in France where he got caught again with kids.

Interresting statistics : in the normal society, there is 10% of gays. But it is prooved that the percentage of gays is higher with priest than in the normal society. That explain a lot of things.

... Like the bunch of priests who were caught by the police in an orgy many years ago. I think it was in Germany or in Austria.


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 25, 2005)

Maestro said:


> It's well known in the Province I live : 90% of priest are pedophiles. We got a lot of scandals about pedophile priest here.


Here too. Unfortunately, it happens all over. It's unnatural to try to force people to abstain, whether it's to do God's work or anything else. Priests are only human like the rest of us. I'm in _no way_ defending paedophiles here, I'm simply saying that the sexual drive doesn't just walk out the door as soon as you've put on a priest's collar.


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## Maestro (Apr 25, 2005)

Of corse, no. What I beleive is that many pedophiles became priest to be clear of legal pursuits. Instead of being pursued, they'll be transfered from country to country and always have fresh meat.


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## mosquitoman (Apr 25, 2005)

I doubt that, it's probably just repression of all other outlets


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## trackend (Apr 26, 2005)

Hi guys I just thought I would let you know that I am reading all your posts in this thread with interest, however I shall still not post any of my own beliefs or ideas as I may offend. Nevertheless it is nice to read your own thoughts on the various subjects. Thankyou.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 26, 2005)

I am surprised we made it this long without offending anyone. I tend to offend a lot of people with my beliefs on the subject but as I see here most of us are in agreement here.


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## Erich (Apr 26, 2005)

how are we to learn....honestly if we do not offend ? isn't this a cop out gents ? We tried to do it when hippies like me came into observance and until my calling elsewhere on this world during chaotic times. Do believe we use the word 'offended' and 'politically correct' much too often when we do not want to here something that may just push one of our buttons.

The Catholic church and the Vatican has been a powerful source since the Holy Roman Empire really got going in Europe. Frankly I think if you read my postings in this thread you know my position. Must say that relgious discussions are the hardest to get going and most often the easiest to ignore as it makes one very uneasy. funny don't we do this on other threads such as the Bf 109 variant and the Best Fw 190 variant. We all come off as experts but frankly none of us served in WW 2 to fly these aluminum crates but yet we rant and rave with all our knowledge.

Personally I find this thread a bit on the refreshing side..........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 26, 2005)

I agree


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## trackend (Apr 26, 2005)

I am still not going to take the bait guys as I know I will do more than just offend probable because im not the most educated bloke around and I would put my views in a plain and down to earth fashion.


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 26, 2005)

That's usually the best way, in my experience. How else can you have a frank discussion? I know _I_ won't be offended. I'm not particularly religious to begin with.


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## Erich (Apr 26, 2005)

well if you do not mind me countering what you all say, and yes I have an open mind to what is out there.............been there done it back in the 60's guys/ladies

bring it on !! 8) 

again I would like to use this thread as a learning tool as the other threads on aviation.......


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## trackend (Apr 26, 2005)

OK I'll give you just a taster
Religion is created by men to cover their fear of oblivion there are many beliefs around the world some believe in one god some in many they cannot all be right therefore logic dictates they are all wrong.
every time science proves that something that has been written down and believed for century's is total twaddle the various scholars huddle around trying to find a way to explain why it actually meant in the various writings what the scientists have proven. (six days ,well god days are longer than normal ones)
As I was taught C of E more than any other religion I shall give another small example of a flawed belief. God is perfect and made everything, who is the Devil, he's a fallen angel. well if god made everything and he's perfect he made a bleeding great cock up when he made him didn't he.
As you may have gathered I am a devout atheist the only things I believe in is right and wrong, love and peace and the sure knowledge that after my few years on this ball of dirt I will cease to exist and so will all of you so make the most of it while you around its a one way ticket


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 26, 2005)

Now that wasn't so hard, was it?


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## trackend (Apr 26, 2005)

Balls Skim


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## Erich (Apr 26, 2005)

God also made freedom of choice in the cosmic world friend..........chew on that . God is one and all and all powerful, never foget that. Our lives are only but a grain of sand in time if we all think we are so great and making our own destiny..............Ha ~

As I treid to point out earlier and maybe it is not too clear then..........there is a monstrous difference between religion and faith 

♪ step inside I have been waiting for U ♪


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## trackend (Apr 26, 2005)

What is the cosmic world when its at home ? pal it sounds like you've been chewing something never mind me chewing on anything
there was somthing else wasnt there, sorry I forgot


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## Erich (Apr 26, 2005)

it's all around you man, you can't see it but you can feel it...........the reason why the evil one was allowed to reign on earth. The choice is there ? whom do you serve ?

yeah it sounds cruel but it is reality


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## trackend (Apr 26, 2005)

Far out, You're 40 years out of sinc Erich I had all this in me teens 
with all the Whacky Baccy and happenings, Lucy in the sky with diamonds
ect im off Its all your fault Skim


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## Erich (Apr 26, 2005)

Track how old do you think I am ?

we have an impasse as I thought. I believe, you believe in nothing, except self to get you through. Your response is just the same as many a lost friend back during my hippie days of 1964 onward, not a whole lot has changed except more awareness of an age old disease(s) 
Yeah free love for all and no responbilities, no wonder our world sucks....


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 26, 2005)

The long and short of what _I_ believe is this: Personally I believe in a god, but you can stuff your church ("your" to be taken in the generic sense.  ). That is simply my belief, and I fully respect the beliefs of others. I'll tolerate those beliefs just as long as mine are tolerated.

This friendly discussion not withstanding, I will _not_ tolerate anyone attempting to force their own beliefs down my throat. I can live just as happily beside an athiest or an evangelist, I honestly couldn't care less. But the instant someone comes a knockin' looking for a cash donation, to sell me a bible, or to win me over to a flock of somekind, _then_ we have a problem!

In short, if you leave me alone I'll leave you alone.


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## Maestro (Apr 26, 2005)

Trackend, I think we are on the same "line of thought". There was a lot or contradictions in the bible. Like when God created Earth. He created it in 6 days and had a rest on the 7th, right ? If I remember well, he created the animals (including fish) on the 3rd day but only created water on the 4th. Question : how in the hell did the fish survived ?

An other thing is that (always in the bible) God created man as an image of himself. But Charles Darwin (who is a model for me as well as Winston Churchill) prooved that each species evoluated and that man came in fact from apes.

A third thing is when Noe built his barge. Scientifics calculated that, in order to be able to carry two specimens of each species, he would have needed a boat 4 times the size of the Titanic (and all made of wood). That's a hell of a big ship !

An other weird thing in the bible is Adam and Eve. They had two childrens... two boys. Question : wich one beared the child for the next generation ?

Personnally, I don't beleive in any god. I think religions are the key of wars. 90% of all wars are based on religion.


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## Erich (Apr 26, 2005)

Non :

Church is a very broad term.. Body of Christ or state run ? You obviously have had your door knocked on by several of the known religious oddities just as everyone else

Yes the state run church has given Christ the shaft . Maybe maybe not but I think all have to accept what is right or wrong. Leaving all alone will just allow festering and sooner or later one will overcome the other. Just look at the world, look at the mideast. One nation against many.

Just ignoring or making the statement that all are accepted and that if no-one comes before me to test whatever I believe in is going to make it ALL go away just isn't going to happen..............


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 26, 2005)

Watch me.


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## Erich (Apr 26, 2005)

sad maestor but I will aceept your thoughts as well as Tracks.

Believe this or not but it is going to come down to faith as to what will happen to the end of this planet with water and land.....the end result will bew in the mid-east and the world will watch


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## trackend (Apr 27, 2005)

Well said Skim I take the balls remark back


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 27, 2005)

Well that's the main thing.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 27, 2005)

Well as I stated I believe in God but I dont believe in the church. I have faith but I am not religious.


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 29, 2005)

Im pretty much completely atheistic.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 29, 2005)

What is your reasons.


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 29, 2005)

Well I dont really want to say why im like that in case I cause offence.


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 29, 2005)

It hasn't bothered anyone yet. Go for it.


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 29, 2005)

Well I just dont see how its possible at all, going for any religion. I respect the beliefs of others but personally I just dont see how any of it can be possible. Science has proved pretty much all of it wrong. Im really truely sorry if anyone is offended by my views.


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 29, 2005)

Your views are your views, m8. Don't ever apologize for them.
It's good to be respectful of others, but don't apologize for what you believe. 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 30, 2005)

I agree and by the way CC what you said up there is true. Science has shown how many of these things could have happened. Sometimes I believe the bible is just a early history book. The people back then did not know how to explain things that happened. Like the great flood. They wanted to know why a large Tsunami came and flooded everything and they did not know why, so god had to be angry and flood the lands.

Dont ever apologize for your beliefs such as these, there is nothing wrong with believing them.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 30, 2005)

but at the same time, years ago science "proved" the sun and all the planets revolved around the earth, science isn't always right, years from now the theorys of today may be proved wrong.........


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 30, 2005)

That was just someones theory. Like people had theories the the earth was flat, No-one ever proved them, because if they did they'd be true.


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## mosquitoman (Apr 30, 2005)

Everything is a theory until it is proven by experiment.
Although I'm a scientist I'm also a Christian and most things from the bible can be proved either through going back to the original language of the writes or through science.


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## Maestro (Apr 30, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> That was just someones theory. Like people had theories the the earth was flat, No-one ever proved them, because if they did they'd be true.



Theories that killed a lot of poeples.

Was it Copernic or Gallilé who was executed by the Roman Church for saying that the Earth was round and that the Earth was orbiting around the sun and NOT the opposite ? Hundreds years laters, Magellan proved that they were right by going around the planet by the West.

Or like the thing the Roman Church was saying : "If you go too far on the ocean, you'll get to the Edge of the World and fall into the nowhere." However, around the year 1000, Vickings prooved that they were wrong by landing in New-Foundland 500 years before Colomb landed in America.

Why did the Vikings abandoned their "colony" on New-Foundland ? It remains unknow. Historians beleive that it was because it was too far away from Denmark. (Yeah, the Viking who landed here (Erik The Red) was Danish ! Hmmm... may be he's an ancestor of my great grand-father...  But I derive from the subject.  )


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## BombTaxi (Apr 30, 2005)

I dont have any particular religious belief, but I agree with Adler on the Bible being a piece of serious historical writing. Behind the genealogies and legends, there is a chronicle of the existence of some very old tribes of the Middle East, and a history of a social and political leader who was executed by the Romans. These are certainly histories worth studying, and in the case of the New Testament, appear to be factually valid. As a histoy and philosophy student (specialising in histriography and the philosophy of history), I find the Bible fascinatimg... I'll leave the theology to those who are better qualified though


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 1, 2005)

As do I.


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