# Captured P-51 in combat?



## Njaco (Mar 6, 2007)

I recently found this sentence in a book ... "The Checkertale Clan:The 325 FG in North Africa and Italy" by E.R. McDowell and William Hess, pg 56;

"An unusual encounter took place on 24 August 1944 when the Group ran into a captured P-51 painted black over-all with yellow stripes around the wings. It was flying in a mixed gaggle of about 40 German aircraft...."

I've never heard this before except for stories of captured B-17s and 24s directing fighters onto bombers. And most captured stock was with KG 200, correct? Never heard of something like this being used to fight with a regular Gruppe or such!

Interesting unless this has already been discussed and I haven't found the thread yet.

Thanx


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## comiso90 (Mar 6, 2007)

interesting... How well would the P-51 run on German fuel?


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## Njaco (Mar 6, 2007)

Another point I didn't think about!


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## Russell Means (Mar 10, 2007)

LW flew captured allied fighter aircraft in combat. RCAF Spitfire pilot William Neal Chappel was shot down by a German Spitfire over Belgium in late 1944. This was witnessed by the rest of 403. He can confirm all the details. He lives in S Cal, I have his phone #.


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## JG57_Rall (Mar 10, 2007)

~S~ All,
The captured allied aircraft in WWII were used by KG200 in a number of roles.
Here is a good link to color profiles of some KG200 aircraft.

Caged Eagles: Captured Allied Aircraft Markings

This URL has a lot of good info on KG200 aircraft and procedures also.

KG200 Site - The Real KG200 - A Brief History

JG57 the Virtual CFS squad has quite a few KG200 flight models with a short history of the Wolf Hound captured B-17 bomber at this URL

http://bjrvt.supremeserver22.com/JG57KG200.html


Hope these URLs are usefull.

Rall


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 10, 2007)

A good book you can also read is:

KG 200 The Luftwaffes Most Secret Unit by Geoffrey J. Thomas and Barry Ketley.

very informative and covers the captured aircraft with tail numbers and pictures.


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## Njaco (Mar 10, 2007)

Thanks for the info. But did KG 200 ever fly daylight missions with other gruppen? This piece seems to indicate that this was a single captured P-51 flying with Fw 190s and Bf 109s. Unless he was mistaken and it was a Bf 109 in dark camo. I've got some profiles of Messer. from I believe JG 300 that are very dark and almost absent any identifiers.

It was just a very unusual sentence and got me wondering.

And KG 200 was for special ops, I believe. unless....

Were JGs used for cover on some KG 200 missions?

Questions, questions.....

Thanx


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## Erich (Mar 10, 2007)

the story is crock as captured machines were flight tested and sent to units in this case a captured Mustang to Luftwaffe JG's as evaluation craft only flown by piolts in the test unit Zirkus Rosarius. KG 200 did not have these, they used captured 4 engine jobs. KG = Kampfgeschwader = bomber wing

yes KG 200 flew special ops and I have a friend still living that flew 109's in the unit, name withheld at the time being on his request


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## Matt308 (Mar 10, 2007)




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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 11, 2007)

Can you elaborate on that Erich. Because according to the book KG 200 had the following allied fighters with pictures of them as well:

*Spitfire PR.XI* SN: MB945 Luftwaffe code: T9+BB
*Mosquito* Luftwaffe code: T9-XB
*P-38G* Luftwaffe code: T9+XB
*P-51B* Luftwaffe code: T9+CK
*Spitfire IX* Luftwaffe code: T9+EK
*P-47D-2-RA* SN: 42-22490 Luftwaffe code: T9+FK
*Typhoon* Luftwaffe code: T9+GK
*P-51C* Luftwaffe code: T9+HK
*Spitfire IX* Luftwaffe code: T9+KK
*P-47D-11-RE* SN: 42-75971 Luftwaffe code: T9+LK
*F-5E Lightning* SN: 44-23725 Luftwaffe code: T9+MK
*P-47D* Luftwaffe code: T9+PK
*P-51D* Luftwaffe code: T9+PK
*Typhoon* SN: 0549(?)
*Typhoon* SN: 0956(?)


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## Njaco (Mar 11, 2007)

I just checked those sites JG 57 listed and the Captured Eagles has a few single engine with a description. The P-51B was used by Hungarian fighters for training against Fw 190 but who knows.


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## Erich (Mar 11, 2007)

my understanding is that the T9 P-51's were not part of KG 200 at all. This was a special ops group not a testing evaluation group. Gag looks like I have to pull out resources again .........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 11, 2007)

From the understanding that I got from the book they were used on special operations missions by KG200. It has pictures of them and history of the aircraft. Who flew them and if they were lost and where. Also where they were recovered. 

Again I am not saying this info is 100 percent correct but it is the understanding that I have.


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## Njaco (Mar 11, 2007)

Sorry Erich, I guess I'll keep questions to something like ... whats the best three wing plane


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 11, 2007)

Dont let him kid you. Erich loves going through his old material and archives.


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## Njaco (Mar 11, 2007)




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## Aggie08 (Mar 12, 2007)

It seems like the most likely explanation is that is was a -109, being as the two looked similar and when one faces a gaggle of 40 German warplanes I imagine one does not take the time to examine any one plane for too long.


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## Njaco (Mar 12, 2007)

Thats what I was thinking. I've got some profiles of very dark Bf 109s from JG 300 which I believe (Erich might correct me on this) were in the Med area of Italy and Rum, etc. just a guess.


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## Single-Handed-Sailor (Mar 12, 2007)

I'd say that the report of a black P-51 as published in that "Checkertail Clan" book was probably a case of misidentification. That kind of wrong ID was pretty common from what I gather.

Erich is right when he says that the captured fighters were operated by Zirkus Rosarius. They were used for evaluation and mock combat against operational German fighters. I think the actual designation of the "Zirkus" was 2.Staffel Versuchsverband Oberkommando der Luftwaffe, or something like that. (Sorry if I have that wrong. My high-school German is way beyond rusty these days!)

It's my understanding that KG 200 engaged in mostly clandestine operations and long-range recce work, yes? Am I also correct in saying that they used Mistels late in the war, or no?


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## Njaco (Mar 13, 2007)

I agree, Sailor....misident.

I do believe KG 200 was flying Mistels against Oder and Ludendorf bridges late war.

I think they also used a Ar 234 for Operation Zeppelin ... a drop of agents in Moscow. I may be wrong but that seems alittle difficult. Maybe I'm forgetting the a/c type. All my research on another computer. Keeps most of the net bugs out.


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## JG57_Rall (Mar 13, 2007)

Hi Gents,
This is the page I found most of the color profiles for captured Allied aircraft color profiles. There is some info on the birds there too.
Captured Allied Aircraft
And the Structure of KG200 with a note about some of their aircraft is on this URL.
KG200 Orginization
This URL is Interesting too.
Luftwaffe Bomber Wing KG 200


Rall


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## HealzDevo (Mar 14, 2007)

Cool, thank-you keep them coming they look like really interesting links. Used to have one that had a Spitfire that had been captured but I can't remember it.


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## JG57_Rall (Mar 14, 2007)

HealzDevo said:


> Cool, thank-you keep them coming they look like really interesting links. Used to have one that had a Spitfire that had been captured but I can't remember it.



Your welcome HealzDevo,
Here is a picture and a couple more URL inks for you.







fleetairarmarchive

aircraftresourcecenter

And if you would like to see the pictures of our CFS1 captured flight models, check this link.

JG57/KG200

Rall


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## Njaco (Mar 14, 2007)

Nice pic JG 57!

this should probably be in another section of this forum but have you ever tried CFS2?


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## JG57_Rall (Mar 14, 2007)

Njaco said:


> Nice pic JG 57!
> 
> this should probably be in another section of this forum but have you ever tried CFS2?



My participation in this thread was in responce to the threads relating to KG200 and captured aircraft. I thought I was just taking part in the thread not starting the topic.

Yes I tried CFS2 and found it to arcade like. I prefer CFS1 It seems more of a simulation then a game to me. Besides we have done lots of work on CFS1 aircraft and scenerys in CFS1.

Rall


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## Erich (Mar 14, 2007)

no JG 300 was never in the Med, JG 301 was for a short term with Bf 109G's.

the 325th fg must have mis-identified. Understand that KG 200 was and still remains a stealth outfit and it was against regulations even under a prison term to take ANY photos of the a/c flown by the unit. Were there single engine fighters flown like Bf 109G's / ......yes but not under the pretenses said in the thread. Also according to the book refernces/net about the unit there is still so much more that was done by this KG 200 that no-one will ever know and for good reason


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## Njaco (Mar 14, 2007)

JG 57 That was me...not you...no harm...I was commenting that my reply probably should be elsewhere  

Thanks Erich!

I thought as much about KG 200.

last night going through some old books of mine I found a pic of a crashed P-51 in German markings with the ststement that they were used to trail bomber formations giving spedd, direction, etc. to following fighters.

Could be this is what the FG encountered.

Incidently this was Aero series No. 15 "P-51" by Ed Maloney 1967


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## JG57_Rall (Mar 14, 2007)

Njaco said:


> JG 57 That was me...not you...no harm...I was commenting that my reply probably should be elsewhere



No problem, I did`nt think I had stepped out of topic. 

Rall


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## HealzDevo (Mar 18, 2007)

Thanks, yes I think that could be at least one of the pictures. It does look familiar...


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## racerguy00 (Feb 21, 2009)

I caught the tail end of a Dogfight episode on TV the other day where a Tuskeegee airman broke off an engagement with a captured P-51 due to low fuel after shooting down an ME-262. Anyone know where that happened?


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## alejandro_ (Aug 3, 2010)

According to M.V Lowe book on the P-51 (Crowood series), a P-51C named Evalina was captured in Burma in late 1943. The Mustang, belongin to 56 FG, landed intact at Suchon airfield in China. It was then delivered to Japan (Fussa test centre) by Maj Yasuhiko Kuroe, from 64th Sentai. It was later moved to Akeno and used in mock dogfights against then current Japanese models.

- The P-51 systems and equipment were found to be considerably better than those equipping Japanese aircraft.
- Armour protection for the pilot was particularly better, and was of great interest to the Japanese pilots.
- Ground crews were very impressed by the lack of major oil leaks, and pilots liked its behaviour.
- The range caused concern because it meant that escorts could be provided if the US captured Pacific islands on the approach to Japan.

Is there any more detail on this evaluation?


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## Erich (Aug 3, 2010)

sorry but the Stang could not be from the 56thfg as the 56th flew Jugs in the ETO


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## alejandro_ (Aug 3, 2010)

Typo, it was 51 FG.


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## beaupower32 (Aug 4, 2010)

Prior to January 1945, the Japanese obviously had some knowledge of the Mustang's performance as both IJN and IJAAF pilots fought against that aircraft on a regular basis. In addition, it seems safe to assume that the Japanese were able to study at least some wrecks and other Mustang-related material.

On January 16, 1945, an event occured that gave the Japanese military a chance to become much more familiar with the P-51 Mustang. On that day, 1.Lt. Oliver E. Strawbridge of the 26th FS, 51st FG, was hit by enemy gunfire and had to land at the japanese-held Suchin airfield in China. While some sources indicate he made a wheels-up landing, others claim he landed his airplane normally.

In any case his aircraft, a P-51C-11-NT nicknamed "Evalina", was rapidly seized by Japanese troops. It was repaired and given Hinomaru roundels and was then flown to the Fussa evaluation center (now Yokota airbase) in mainland Japan. There, it was test-flown by Japanese test pilots, who seem to have considered it a superb aircraft. 

In the end, lack of spare parts finally grounded the plane. One ace was tasked to go shoot down another P-51 so they could aquire parts. The ace (name eludes me at the moment) did manage to shoot down a Mustang, but the plane landed in the Ocean, making it unsalvagable. The fate of the P-51C is unknown, though some spectulate that the plane was bulldozed into a lake, but the remains have never been found. 









Two pictures of 1Lt. Strawbridge and "Evalina" before his January 16, 1945 mission. (Photos: USAF). 





This is how "Evalina" probably looked like after passing into Japanese hands. The details of the markings after the cockpit area is unknown. Only the serial number and tactical number are known. © Gaëtan Marie


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## Bernhart (Aug 5, 2010)

what happened to strawbridge?, captured? escaped?


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## sb87 (Aug 21, 2010)

Bernhart said:


> what happened to strawbridge?, captured? escaped?


Hello,

I'm Lt. Oliver E. Stawbridge's grandaughter, although I never knew him. My grandfather was not the one flying his P51 that day. Apparently some other pilot flew his plane that day and ended up landing in a rice field after being shot down. I don't know what happened to that pilot, but my grandfather lived until 1987, I think. Evalina was his girlfriend's name at the time, I think, but he never ended up marrying her. My Grandma's name was Ruth Anne. Anyway, I just thought I'd share that bit of info with you since I saw this site when I googled my grandfather's name.

~Sara


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## Smoke (Aug 22, 2010)

sb87 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm Lt. Oliver E. Stawbridge's grandaughter, although I never knew him. My grandfather was not the one flying his P51 that day. Apparently some other pilot flew his plane that day and ended up landing in a rice field after being shot down. I don't know what happened to that pilot, but my grandfather lived until 1987, I think. Evalina was his girlfriend's name at the time, I think, but he never ended up marrying her. My Grandma's name was Ruth Anne. Anyway, I just thought I'd share that bit of info with you since I saw this site when I googled my grandfather's name.
> 
> ~Sara



Thanks for sharing the information!

It's amazing what you can come across online isn't it? I've been able to find out a lot about my Great-Uncle (a Marine fighter pilot who I never got to meet) through the internet.

Anyway, if you'd like some help or tips with you're research, just send me a message, I'd be glad to help out in any way I can.


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## Njaco (Aug 22, 2010)

Welcome to the forum Sara and a heartfelt thanks for the info!


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## Airframes (Aug 22, 2010)

Great stuff Sara, and thanks for sharing.


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## alejandro_ (Aug 24, 2010)

Thanks Sara for the insight and welcome. 

Several P-51 were captured by the Luftwaffe. A P-51B landed intact* at Cambrai in June 1944 according to Luftwaffe test pilot Hans-Werner Lerche. Pilot was Lt. Thomas Fraser from 4 FG.






Luftwaffe test results with other tests performed:






Anyone knows what happened to this pilot and why did he land at Cambrai?

* some sources say the aircraft was damaged, but the test data are very good. I doubt that performance would be achievable with a heavily damaged frame.


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## bobbysocks (Aug 24, 2010)

i read a story where a group of 51s were straffing an areodrome. one of the either picked up a round or chunk of flak in his cooling system. it was bad enough he was going to have to either belly in a field or try for a landing on the strip they were straffing. he landed on the strip...and after breaking his gunsite got out ran like hell away from his ship with his hands up....because he knew someone in his flight was going to shoot up his plane so it didnt fall into enemy hands. when you are forced down and have the choice of landing on a clean strip knowing you can walk away from it or belly in and take the gamble that it may do you in....and know your part in the war is over ( unless you can steal a 190 like one guy did..haha) ...well, what would you do? so that could explain some of the captured planes. others were bellied in and put together from parts of ones that did the same.
also i do remember my father talking about passing a flight of 3 109s being lead by a 51. he went for the chace but by the time he was able to turn they were long gone.


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## drgondog (Aug 25, 2010)

alejandro_ said:


> Thanks Sara for the insight and welcome.
> 
> Several P-51 were captured by the Luftwaffe. A P-51B landed intact* at Cambrai in June 1944 according to Luftwaffe test pilot Hans-Werner Lerche. Pilot was Lt. Thomas Fraser from 4 FG.
> 
> ...



These aren't Luftwaffe tests,, I assume you plotted Lerche's published results against the Spitfire Performance charts?


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## alejandro_ (Aug 25, 2010)

> These aren't Luftwaffe tests,, I assume you plotted Lerche's published results against the Spitfire Performance charts?



Yes, the other are allied tests.


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## alejandro_ (Aug 31, 2010)

> I'm Lt. Oliver E. Stawbridge's grandaughter, although I never knew him. My grandfather was not the one flying his P51 that day. Apparently some other pilot flew his plane that day and ended up landing in a rice field after being shot down. I don't know what happened to that pilot, but my grandfather lived until 1987, I think. Evalina was his girlfriend's name at the time, I think, but he never ended up marrying her. My Grandma's name was Ruth Anne. Anyway, I just thought I'd share that bit of info with you since I saw this site when I googled my grandfather's name.



Pilot flying the aircraft that day was Second Lt Sam McMillan. He now lives in Connecticum (info from 2008). The source of the information is an article of Henry Sakaida in Flight Journal. It seems that one of Sara's relatives contributed to this article with some photos, as they are credited to Susan Strawbridge Bryant.


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## Bernhart (Aug 31, 2010)

good to hear he survived the war


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## Njaco (Aug 31, 2010)

Found this profile on the net a few weeks ago.....


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## bobbysocks (Oct 17, 2010)

found this account tonight as i was looking for something else... from bud anderson' site about the 357th in the arhem/market garden affair.

from tom gates' encounter report:

We saw five 109s flying close formation with a flight of P-51s bouncing them. One 109 split-essed out and went to the deck in aileron turns. The others turned into the bounce.

"I took after the one on the deck and let him have a burst from about 1,000 yards but no strikes seen. When he came to an airdrome he made a turn. I closed enough to see American markings on the upper surfaces of both wings and it was a P-51 painted the same as the 109s. There were no group markings on the nose. When I saw it was a P-51, to avoid light flak from the field I widened the turn and the P-51 leveled out and headed SE at full throttle. There is no doubt that it was flown by a German pilot."


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## krieghund (Oct 19, 2010)

I'm sure we have heard of the captured P-38 used by an Italian pilot to shot down crippled USAAF bombers,

Or so the story goes;

A YB-40 was involved in an interesting encounter. It bagged an Italian ace, Guido Rossi. In 1943 a P-38 ran out of fuel and ditched outside Sardinia. The pilot was overwhelmed by locals before he could use his pistol to ignite the tanks and burn the craft. Rossi had the clever idea of using the captured P-38 to kill wounded B-17's returning from bombing missions as stragglers. He bagged several bombers this way. One B-17 Pilot, Lt. Harold Fisher survived an attack, and had trouble convincing others that he was shot down by a 'friendly'.

Fisher was persistent and obtained command of a prototype YB-40 gunship, and flew several missions lagging behind the rest of the bombers trying to lure out the 'Phantom' P-38. As intelligence was gathered in Italy, they discovered Rossi and his captured '38 did indeed exist and had a wife in Constantine. Allies occupied this city, so when the nose art was applied to the YB-40, the artist used a photo of Rossi's wife, and named the gunship after her, 'Gina'.

Fisher flew a mission on August 31st that year, and was actually damaged in the bombing raid, so with two engines out, the YB-40 was even slower, and flew back completely solo. Sure enough, a P-38 approached, one engine feathered, and asked to join up for the trip back in very good english. Fisher almost fell for the same trap again. With the extra firepower of the friendly P-38 along, everything was being unloaded, guns, ammo, armor plate, anything to keep the YB-40 in the air. At this point Rossi came over the radio with an innocent question. "Gina, nice name. Your girl?" Fisher froze and ordered his men to keep their guns, and started baiting Rossi with details of his 'relationship' with Gina of Constantine.

Rossi became enraged, fired up the 'dead' engine, and circled around, intending to fire right through the nose, cockpit and the entire length of the YB-40. The '40 had an innovation that was later added to all B-17's, a chin turret. As Rossi came in, he faced down a total of 8 forward firing .50's. As the P-38 came apart Rossi even tried to ram the YB-40, but could not maintain flight. He ditched and was picked up by Allied pilot rescue and remained a prisoner for the remainder of the war.

Lt. Harold Fisher received the Distinguished Flying Cross for the encounter, and Major Fisher was killed during a crash in the Berlin Airlift. Former Lt. Guido Rossi attended his funeral out of respect.

I heard this from a Buff pilot a while ago.


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