# F2H Banshee vs F9F Panther



## Conslaw (Oct 15, 2019)

The F2H Banshee and the F9F Panther were among the US Navy's first jet fighters. They fought concurrently in the Korean War, but neither saw much service in the air-to-air fighter role, because as first generation straight-winged jets, they gave up too much performance to the Mig-15. Nevertheless, each served well. Which is your favorite, and why?


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## swampyankee (Oct 15, 2019)

The Panther, even though the Banshee had a cooler nickname. 

I don't think there were enough real differences between them to really matter.

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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 15, 2019)

As far as the F9F's air-to-air role, this is from wiki;

_The Grumman Panther was the primary US Navy and USMC jet fighter and ground-attack aircraft in the Korean War. The Panther was the most widely used U.S. Navy jet fighter of the Korean War, flying 78,000 sorties and scoring the first air-to-air kill by the U.S. Navy in the war, the downing of a North Korean Yakovlev Yak-9 fighter. F9F-2s, F9F-3s and F9F-5s, as rugged attack aircraft, were able to sustain operations, even in the face of intense anti-aircraft fire. The pilots also appreciated the air conditioned cockpit, which was a welcome change from the humid environment of piston-powered aircraft._

_Despite their relative slow speed, Panthers also managed to shoot down two Yak-9s and seven Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15s for the loss of two F9Fs. On 3 July 1950, Lieutenant, junior grade Leonard H. Plog of U.S. Navy's VF-51 flying an F9F-3 scored the first U.S. Navy air victory of the war by shooting down a Yak-9._

_The first MiG-15 was downed on 9 November 1950 by Lieutenant Commander William (Bill) Amen of VF-111 "Sundowners" flying an F9F-2B. Two more MiG-15s were downed on 18 November 1950._

_On 18 November 1952, Lt. Royce Williams of VF-781, flying off USS Oriskany destroyed four MiGs in a single, 35-minute combat. This unique feat has remained little-known, due to the involvement of National Security Agency (NSA) – the existence of which was then top secret – in planning the mission. Following intelligence provided by the NSA, the MiGs had been intercepted during a series of air strikes against the North Korean port of Hoeryong. After losing contact with his wingman, Williams found himself alone in a dogfight with six MiG-15s; when he was able to land on Oriskany, his Panther was found to have sustained 263 hits by cannon shells or fragments, and to be beyond repair. Williams' victories were even more notable in that all four MiGs were flown by Soviet Naval Aviation pilots: Russian sources confirmed Williams' claims, 40 years later, stating that the pilots lost were Captains Belyakov and Vandalov, and Lieutenants Pakhomkin and Tarshinov._

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## Dimlee (Oct 17, 2019)

Soviet losses in Korea... A lot of controversial information there.

Probably the most complete (does not mean the most correct) work was done by Igor Seidov:
Amazon.com: 9785699191604: Books
Seidov cooperated later with Stuart Britton with new English language edition (I have it but still try to find time to go through this massive book and to compare with an earlier version).
https://amzn.to/2VOpClU

According to the earlier book of Seidov:
Lt. Tarshinov KIA 18th November *1950* (not 1952)
Cpt.Belyakov, Cpt. Vandalov and Lt. Pakhomkin were not mentioned at all
And no loss records on 18th November 1952.

But Seidov could miss something in archives, of course.
Online database of KIA personnel of the Russian Empire, USSR and RF and filled in by data from various sources, including family memoirs (how reliable?), tells the following:
Lt. Tarshinov of 139th IAP - KIA 18th November 1950
Cpt. Belyakov of 781th IAP - KIA 18th November 1952, air combat over Peter the Great Gulf
Sen.Lt. Vandaev (not Cpt. Vandalov) of 781th IAP - KIA 18th November 1952, air combat over the Sea of Japan
Sen.Lt. Pakhomkin of 781th IAP - KIA18th November 1952.

Official history of 781th IAP says that this IAP was based in USSR near Nakhodka in 1952 and relocated to China only in February 1953. So the combat was definitely somewhere over the Sea of Japan. I can't imagine that F9F tried to intercept MiG-15s. Probably MiGs were launched from their Nakhodka base to patrol approaches to Vladivostok and then were vectored to intercept US aircraft.

Another important note. "Russian sources" were hardly able to confirm anything 40 years after the Korean War. Archives materials related to Soviet participation in that war were not open yet.

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## rob23 (Oct 18, 2019)

FLYBOYJ said:


> As far as the F9F's air-to-air role, this is from wiki;
> 
> _The Grumman Panther was the primary US Navy and USMC jet fighter and ground-attack aircraft in the Korean War. The Panther was the most widely used U.S. Navy jet fighter of the Korean War, flying 78,000 sorties and scoring the first air-to-air kill by the U.S. Navy in the war, the downing of a North Korean Yakovlev Yak-9 fighter. F9F-2s, F9F-3s and F9F-5s, as rugged attack aircraft, were able to sustain operations, even in the face of intense anti-aircraft fire. The pilots also appreciated the air conditioned cockpit, which was a welcome change from the humid environment of piston-powered aircraft._
> 
> ...


That is amazing that a Panther could do that kind of flying against MiG 15's. LT Williams must have been a hell of an aviator.

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