# Bandit to starboard!



## GrauGeist (May 25, 2009)

Came across a COOL shot of an attacking Me410 taken from a B-17G of the 388th BG.

Not sure of the date, but we can assume it was later in the war by the appearance of the '410. The details are really nice on this photo, you can see the band on the 410, as well as it's cannon.


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (May 25, 2009)

Looks like the wing on the Fort is sporting a large cannon hole just this side of the H also. Great find GG. Thanks for posting.


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## Wurger (May 25, 2009)

Yep I agree..THX for uploading.


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## Gnomey (May 25, 2009)

Yep, looks like a hole in the wing to me too. Nice shot, thanks for sharing.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 25, 2009)

Very cool pic. And yes it does look like the wing has taken some damage.


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## Micdrow (May 25, 2009)

Interesting as to the metal protrudes upward which means the shell hit the bottom of the wing and went though the top side.


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## Wayne Little (May 25, 2009)

great shot!


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## Cota1992 (May 25, 2009)

Now that is a wild picture!
Thanks for posting!


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## Thorlifter (May 25, 2009)

Seeing that cannon would give a guy the willie's for sure! Super image GG!


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## ccheese (May 25, 2009)

Wonder what the bottom ball, top gunner and the right waist gunner were doing while this was going on ??? They each
should have had clear shots at him.

Good pic !

Charles


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## GrauGeist (May 25, 2009)

ccheese said:


> Wonder what the bottom ball, top gunner and the right waist gunner were doing while this was going on ??? They each
> should have had clear shots at him.
> 
> Good pic !
> ...


My thoughts exactly!

Looks like the only guy that had a clear shot, was the one with the camera 
 
From the perspective of the wing in the foreground, the photo was taken from the Radio console skylight.


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## Airframes (May 25, 2009)

A caption to that pic in one book I saw, stated the the B17 had already been damaged by flak. That would probably account for the what appears to be damage to the wing. With that big gun on the '410, it would have made a heck of a bigger mess I think!


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## lesofprimus (May 25, 2009)

Agreed Terry, great pic tho....


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## Airframes (May 25, 2009)

Sure is!


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## evangilder (May 26, 2009)

Kudos to the photographer. That is a very clear shot for the time frame, espcially when you consider it was in an airplane with lots of vibration and cameras in those days didn't have any image stabilization. Incredible!


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## VALENGO (May 26, 2009)

Many years ago I have seem this picture in an issue of the old (british) Aeromodeller magazine dedicated to the Me410, and read that the picture was taken for the B17 radio operator Victor La Bruno.Few seconds before the B17´s wing was pierced for a shoot of the 410.


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## GrauGeist (May 27, 2009)

Thanks for the info, Valengo...I figured it was from the radio station's skylight, and I agree with Eric, it is a remarkable photo, especially under the circumstances!


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## Njaco (May 27, 2009)

It was also used for the softcover edition of "The Last Flight of the Luftwaffe' by Adrian Weir.


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## comiso90 (May 27, 2009)

evangilder said:


> Kudos to the photographer. That is a very clear shot for the time frame, espcially when you consider it was in an airplane with lots of vibration and cameras in those days didn't have any image stabilization. Incredible!




Yes! Vibration, buffeting, fear etc...

great job by the photog... this is a perfect example of "catching a moment".

I wonder what his shutter speed was... 

The 410 sure looks vulnerable presenting his belly like that... 
I'd like to know what the relative speed of the 410 was... cruising speed of a B17 - attack speed of a 410 = ?


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## phas3e (May 30, 2009)

pretty clear shot all right the guys just sitting there and not even moving...

Its a pretty classic shot been replicated in a number of books, must have been one in a million photos too with the rate that 410 would have been going, it hardly would have been strolling though a formation of B17s twirling a cane

Theres a good one of a 'Nick' that dived head on at a B29 and has missed ramming it by feet


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## GrauGeist (May 30, 2009)

comiso90 said:


> Yes! Vibration, buffeting, fear etc...
> 
> great job by the photog... this is a perfect example of "catching a moment".
> 
> ...


A level inbound attack by the 410 would have been death, so chances are he came in from above and committed slashing attacks while trying to exploit the "blind spots" on the B-17 and was most likely part of a team that hit in unison to keep the gunners off balance.

Their max speed was about 388 mph.


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## wheelsup_cavu (May 31, 2009)

phas3e said:


> pretty clear shot all right the guys just sitting there and not even moving...
> 
> Its a pretty classic shot been replicated in a number of books, must have been one in a million photos too with the rate that 410 would have been going, it hardly would have been strolling though a formation of B17s twirling a cane
> 
> Theres a good one of a 'Nick' that dived head on at a B29 and has missed ramming it by feet


I think this is the one.








Wheelsup


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## snafud1 (Jun 8, 2009)

Those are cool pics!


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## Njaco (Jun 14, 2009)

Heres another I just found.


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## GrauGeist (Jun 14, 2009)

Cool photo, NJ!

Man, that's the exact place a '17 driver does NOT want a Spit to be!


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## Airframes (Jun 14, 2009)

That's a quite oftenl used pic of the Spit and Dornier, normally said to be a propaganda shot with a captured Spit. The position of the wing roundels suggest it is a propaganda shot, and it could possibly have even been a montage.


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## Sweb (Jun 14, 2009)

You never know anything truthful about photos such as these. The 17 and 410 is an old picture with an original caption stating the 410 had just lobbed a round through the wing. I think I first saw it in an old Martin Caiden book some years back. For all we know this is the 410's wingman and the photographer just got his act together in time to catch him. But, more than likely is was a shot to capture the damaged wing and the 410 flew into the viewfinder unbeknownst to the photographer when the shutter opened. Crap happened fast up there. 

About gunners...misnomer from the pilot reunions I attended. One fellow said of his gunners they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from inside it. Still shots of air-to-air events distort the quickness of them with regard to human reaction times, shooting environment, stability of the aircraft and the experience of the gunners. It wasn't quite like an arcade up there.


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## GrauGeist (Jun 14, 2009)

Well, if that's a propeganda photo, then I have to assume that the Spit is a captured one.

If that's the case, then why would they change the positioning of the roundells, since it would have had them in the first place? And even still, if the aircraft had been over-painted with RLM colors Luftwaffe insignia, they should recall where the roundells were to start with...


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## Von Frag (Jun 15, 2009)

wheelsup_cavu said:


> I think this is the one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is it a flaw in the photo or is the tailgunner of the other 29 going to town on that Nick?


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## GrauGeist (Jun 15, 2009)

I don't think that at the angle the B-29 is, at the left of the picture, that he could get a shot off at the Nick, which is closer to the camera. The tail gunner of that B-29 is definately shooting at something, but it's down and away to the right, out of the pic. I lso noticed, when I first saw this photo, that the two B-29s are seriously out of formation.

And I bet those guys in the B-29 at the center of the photo needed to change thier shorts when they got back.


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## Sweb (Jun 15, 2009)

Illusion. The other plane is further away and his tail stinger is trained at a different angle. Guessing, he's probably shooting at another plane that has made its pass. Or, judging from it's course deviation, it's been hit and leaving formation. The trail of smoke could be from damage.


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## Von Frag (Jun 15, 2009)

Sweb said:


> Illusion. The other plane is further away and his tail stinger is trained at a different angle. Guessing, he's probably shooting at another plane that has made its pass. Or, judging from it's course deviation, it's been hit and leaving formation. The trail of smoke could be from damage.



The rear bombay door on the 29 in the foreground is open. Could be they just finished their bomb run and were making their egress turn.


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## GrauGeist (Jun 15, 2009)

Look at the angle of the B-29 on the left, and then look closely at the B-29 center...it looks as though the B-29 at center is going to pass right under the B-29 at the left...which also look to be slightly banked to port (left).

Something's really going wrong there.


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## Von Frag (Jun 16, 2009)

GrauGeist said:


> Look at the angle of the B-29 on the left, and then look closely at the B-29 center...it looks as though the B-29 at center is going to pass right under the B-29 at the left...which also look to be slightly banked to port (left).
> 
> Something's really going wrong there.



Absolutely agree with you there. Nothing seems to be coordinated due to the fighter attack and or damage. Was just wondering if the open bombay is a clue to where they were on the run. The second Superfort is all buttoned up. I know they tried to stay coordinated even on egress and wonder if the fighter attack is in the process of busting up the formation.


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## GrauGeist (Jun 16, 2009)

The bomber pilots were usually good at keeping the aircraft squared up, even when being attacked from all sides (with or without flak)...they just gritted thier teeth and drove on through...

Only reason they'd break formation would be extreme circumstances, like flak or fighter damage. In a head-on attack by an enemy fighter, they fought the instinct to evade because there's other bombers in thier direct vicinity.

It would be interesting to know the story behind this photo.


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 16, 2009)

Could have been texting...


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## Von Frag (Jun 16, 2009)

vikingBerserker said:


> Could have been texting...


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## Matt308 (Jun 17, 2009)

The japanese fighter has just made a high side run on the B-29 formation with ramming not out of the ordinary (typical of jap fighter tactics over the homeland during 1945). The upper B-29 has been damaged and is leaving the formation. Note the turrets aimed extremely high (upper) and those pointing low (lower).

I have this same pic in a book of mine.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Jun 17, 2009)

Thanks for the clarification Matt. 8)


Wheelsup


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## GrauGeist (Jun 17, 2009)

Ok, so there was something definately wrong then...thanks for the info, Matt.


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## VALENGO (Jun 26, 2009)

I was checking old papers and founded it!


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## GrauGeist (Jun 26, 2009)

VALENGO said:


> I was checking old papers and founded it!


Awesome, thanks for posting it!


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## Njaco (Jun 28, 2009)

Also found this, looks like the original photo. Check out all the other pics! awesome!

Dorm Updike and the 388th in WWII


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## Gnomey (Jun 28, 2009)

Thanks for sharing that Valengo. Good find Chris!


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## snafud1 (Jun 28, 2009)

Love the link Njaco.


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## 20317 (Jul 13, 2009)

damn close pass.

thanks for that, an ideal ww2 capture.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks for the link Njaco. 


Wheels


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## Pong (Jul 30, 2009)

Great link Njaco. Thanks for sharing.


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