# Canadian Air Frce against U.S. Air Force



## Jank (Nov 21, 2005)

Was having a discussion with a chap who just got out of the Canadian Air Corp who was satying that in mock figher engagements, Canadian fighter pilots usually win against U.S. pilots.

Is that really true?


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 21, 2005)

I for one wouldn't know, but it's become my understanding that an awful lot of US Airforce fighter pilots these days are reservists. I guess I should be asking if _that's_ true. If so, it could explain a thing or two about that. 
Canadian pilots _are_ good though, you can bet on it.

To my knowledge though (and I could be wrong), Canadian fighter pilots haven't actually been in real air to air combat in quite some time, although they have conducted actual air to ground sorties.


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## pbfoot (Nov 21, 2005)

I'm gonna listen awhile


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 21, 2005)

Well give us the inside scoop, Air Force boy.


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## pbfoot (Nov 21, 2005)

i'll wait it might surprise you


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 21, 2005)

In a good way or a bad way? I hate nasty surprises, they always cause me to drink. 

No wait, maybe that ain't so bad.


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## 102first_hussars (Nov 21, 2005)

> To my knowledge though (and I could be wrong), Canadian fighter pilots haven't actually been in real air to air combat




Not since Korea, unless you count those two snowbirds colliding.

The Canadian Airforce along with the Navy take after Britains moder day tactics so yeah theyre really well trained, I think its safe to say that we are of envy for our Discipline, Profesionalism and all around skill, but in return we are envious of the fact that everyone else has better toys than we do.


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## pbfoot (Nov 21, 2005)

102 please share your knowledge


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 21, 2005)

I knew guys who flew exchange - American in Canada and visa versa - it's a tough call. I have found the CAF very professional and they seem to take care of the little they have.

I think it's going to depend on equipment, the sceniro and tactics, but the Canadians will always be fighting grossly outnumbered.....


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## 102first_hussars (Nov 21, 2005)

"fighting grossly outnumbered....."

You have just hit the Bullseye on that one man, I was just brushing up on my History earlier toaday, Reading about such battles as, Hong Kong and Kowloon, Korea 38th paralell(my regiment got an American award for that one), Newfoundlanders at Beaumont Hamel, Battle of Caan and many others. all through our history of war weve been outnumbered.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 21, 2005)

The outnumbered thing is a bit of a no brainer at this point. 

Wait a minute, what the hell am I laughing at?


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## 102first_hussars (Nov 21, 2005)

Your from Nova Scotia, youre probably laughing cuz your mom fell down the stairs


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## pbfoot (Nov 21, 2005)

102first_hussars said:


> "fighting grossly outnumbered....."
> 
> You have just hit the Bullseye on that one man, I was just brushing up on my History earlier toaday, Reading about such battles as, Hong Kong and Kowloon, Korea 38th paralell(my regiment got an American award for that one), Newfoundlanders at Beaumont Hamel, Battle of Caan and many others. all through our history of war weve been outnumbered.


what citation did the loyal edmonton guys get from US


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 21, 2005)

102first_hussars said:


> Your from Nova Scotia, youre probably laughing cuz your mom fell down the stairs


Huh? Seriously, I don't get it. Oh wait right, that was a joke or something.


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## 102first_hussars (Nov 22, 2005)

pbfoot said:


> 102first_hussars said:
> 
> 
> > "fighting grossly outnumbered....."
> ...



Well the Loyal Eddies is a part of the PPCLI, they got an American Citation.


Anyway FBJ put it quite well, however these days training though a big part is useless if the enemy has more and better tools than you do, if a group of Cf-18s fought head on with a group of American F15's The Canadians would pounce maybe taking down 1 or 2 planes depending how fast the f-15's respond to evade, then once the F-15's manage to pull themselves together and get into the fight we might be looking at an even ratio, However If we ever did meet head on it probably be against F-22's in which we would had our asses kicked, thats my imagination, Pb foot is or was in the Canadian Air Force maybe he can give you a nicer picture then I did.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 22, 2005)

pbfoot said:


> what citation did the loyal edmonton guys get from US


The 2nd Battalion of the PPCLI was awarded the US Presidential Unit Citation for action during the Battle of Kapyong, during the Korean War.
The 3rd Battalion of the Royal Australian Regiment was awarded it too, for action in the same battle. The only two Commonwealth battalions to be so awarded by the Americans. I didn't know the honour carried over to the Loyal Edmonton Regiment though.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 22, 2005)

102first_hussars said:


> pbfoot said:
> 
> 
> > 102first_hussars said:
> ...



I think the CF-18 will have a disadvantage in radar systems. If you bring the F-22 into the mix, there is no hope. Here is some info on the F-22....

"Simulations conducted by British Aerospace and the British Defense Research Agency compared the effectiveness of the F-15C, Rafale, EF-2000, and F-22 against the Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The Rafale achieved a 1:1 kill ratio (1 Su-35 destroyed for each Rafale lost). The EF-2000 kill ratio was 4.5:1 while the F-22 achieved a ratio of 10:1. In stark contrast was the F-15C, losing 1.3 Eagles for each Su-35 destroyed."


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 22, 2005)

it'd be interesting to see a Eurofighter up against a F-22.......


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## syscom3 (Nov 22, 2005)

I wouldnt have been surprised that the F15 wasnt doing to well against modern fighters.

Remember, the F15 is an early 70's airframe design. Its over 30 years old.

To put it in historical perspective, the number of years from when WW2 ended to when the F15 first took flight, is the same number of years from today till when the Eagle first flew.

Time has moved forward and aircraft like the F15 and F14 are approaching the end of their usefull lifetimes.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 22, 2005)

also, is in not still the RCAF not just the CAF??


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 22, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> also, is in not still the RCAF not just the CAF??


The RCAF ceased to exist as such in early 1968, along with the RCN and the old Canadian Army, when the services unified into the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF). The idea was to create a single combined force under a single, unified command, but they quickly found that it didn't work that way (Duuhhh!  ). In the early 70's the separate commands were set up again, but the name Canadian Armed Forces (or simply Canadian Forces today) remained, as well as the more or less joint, interacting force concept. It's mostly apparent at the top levels though. We still refer to the individual commands as the Army, Navy, and Air Force too.


Confused yet?


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## pbfoot (Nov 22, 2005)

if you care to believe the rt word for the caf was canforce short for canadian forces but it sounded to belligerent so they changed to canadian military


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 22, 2005)

Well I always figured that was why "Armed" was finally dropped from the name. It made us sound too much like a military. Imagine.


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## 102first_hussars (Nov 22, 2005)

"Nonskimmer" wrote


> I didn't know the honour carried over to the Loyal Edmonton Regiment though.




Its not like the eddies themselves were awarded as well, The Loyal Eddies are an Auxilary attached to the PPCLI. after Chretien disbanded the Airbourne alot of other changes were made, alot of Alberta regiments were reasighned as a part of the PPCLI, its like an army of its own its got 3 Battalions worth of divisions, own artillery and support groups, along with intelligience. so while Im only an AUX Im wear the PPCLI badge as my Battalion mark and a my division mark will say auxilery 
Loyal Edmonton Regiment.

So when I say that my group was awarded I always forget that The Eddies werent apart of the PPCLI until later on, we just see ourselves as PPCLI's thats all.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 22, 2005)

Ok, that makes sense. So the entire regiment, including auxiliaries, wears the citation and not just the 2nd battalion. I didn't know that.


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## pbfoot (Nov 22, 2005)

neither does 2 ppcli
back to the theme what do these american aces all have in common
gentile blakeslee beeson and hofer they were all trained by rcaf as was slick goodson who was bumped by yeager on x1 program though i have not stated i think who are better pilots why not throw the raf germans and others in just for interest


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 22, 2005)

For many years our training was second to none, and we could realistically make the claim that our overall skill level was too. I mean some of our equipment was old, and we didn't have a lot, but our levels of skill and professionalism _rocked_. 
But that began to slide a bit around the mid nineties, starting with the infamous Forces Reduction Plan in '94. Remember that? We lost so many old hands and expertise with that, that we still haven't filled all the holes yet. Have you guys _seen_ some of the new people coming in these days? Even discipline ain't what it used to be. We're still a well trained and professional force (what's left), but admittedly our standard has dropped from what it used to be. At least where the Navy and Air Force are concerned. It's a combination of the endless budget cuts and political correctness. We have a term for that: The Liberal Party of Canada. 

Seriously though, we're smaller than we've ever been, the overall level of training isn't as high as it was, the support just isn't there, and operations sometimes suffer as a result. We never ever had a huge military, but we could always seem to do more with less. That isn't necessarily true anymore. We can't even fulfill our NATO or overseas commitments properly. Neither the Air Force or the Navy have any sort of heavy transport capability at the moment, and we have to either hitch a ride with American heavy transports or hire Ukrainian An-225's to get us where we're going in the world. We have less and less each year it seems, and if you ain't got the gear or the logistical support, you ain't doing squat. It wouldn't matter _how_ professional your people are.

Boys, we're a sad joke. It sucks, but it's the simple truth.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 22, 2005)

I think what you're going to find is the basic skill level and tactics of both CAF and USAF pilots are going to be very close as there are still massive exchange programs. I see Canadian Officers all the time strutting around Peterson AFB....

As far as WW2, the RCAF did do a lot of training of our early aces and provided good combat indocrination, but there were huge primary fligt trining programs here where RAF cadets were brought stateside for training.

http://www.qnet.com/~carcomm/wreck19.htm

But don't take too much credit for the likes of Gentile, Blakeslee, Beeson, and Hofer - they were great pilots but you also had Bong, McGuire, McCambell, MacDonald and Boyington - they were very far from Canada!!!


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 22, 2005)

FLYBOYJ said:


> I see Canadian Officers all the time strutting around Peterson AFB....


Not all pilots, are they? Just curious. Probably some navigators or flight engineers in there, eh?


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 22, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> FLYBOYJ said:
> 
> 
> > I see Canadian Officers all the time strutting around Peterson AFB....
> ...



Many are/ were pilots. I'm guessing they split their time between there and Cheyenne Mountain...


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 22, 2005)

Ah. Thanks.


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## pbfoot (Nov 22, 2005)

I think canada more than any other nation was opened by aviation (bush pilots) it has played a huge role in the development and opening up of canada and I still think plays a role s in the canadian aviation pysche. men like grant McConachie ....wop may(not the ace but the bush pilot) . bishop barker collishaw I'm not saying better but different


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 22, 2005)

You're right. Even now a good deal of the north is inaccessible by any other means but aircraft. Some beautiful country too, I might add. 
A lot of open scrub (_way_ up north), but some great country as well.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 23, 2005)

pbfoot said:


> I think canada more than any other nation was opened by aviation (bush pilots) it has played a huge role in the development and opening up of canada and I still think plays a role s in the canadian aviation pysche. men like grant McConachie ....wop may(not the ace but the bush pilot) . bishop barker collishaw I'm not saying better but different



Actually Wop May (the ace) was a great bush pilot...

http://www.wopmay.com/adventures/adventures.htm

I agree and I say that being a Bush pilot was an is a hell of a lot more challenging than any combat one might ever undertake. Going into combat you generally know what you're up against, flying into some uncharted mountainous territory (especially after WW1) with little or no navigation equipment and doing most of the flying by the seat of your pants is just plain suicidal, but these brave folks accomplished this and opened up the Canadian frontier. Take any ace of any war and have them examine the challenges faced by bush pilots and I'm sure they will walk away telling you these guys are the best pilots who ever lived!!!


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## 102first_hussars (Nov 23, 2005)

"a Bush pilot was an is a hell of a lot more challenging than any combat one might ever undertake"

Yeah back in those days you were more likely to get killed learning how to fly than in actual combat.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 23, 2005)

102first_hussars said:


> Yeah back in those days you were more likely to get killed learning how to fly than in actual combat.



Yep! I think during WW1 half of all Sopwith Camel losses were due to training accidents!


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## pbfoot (Nov 23, 2005)

I think the RCAf benifited from having all these bush pilots used in BCATP
as instructors not to take away from the air mail guys and barnstormers in US and for a long while I think it influenced the mindset of aircrew


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 23, 2005)

pbfoot said:


> I think the RCAf benifited from having all these bush pilots used in BCATP
> as instructors not to take away from the air mail guys and barnstormers in US and for a long while I think it influenced the mindset of aircrew



Agree!


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## pbfoot (Nov 23, 2005)

and i feel up until about mid 70's the RCAF was the scourge of the northern european airspace if you had a furball with the canadians and won it was a feather in your squadrons cap but with the f 16 ,15 and us in our 104 the gig was up I not aware how many hours the aircrew get a year but probably less then our counterparts so i feel we've probably dropped down a bunch but we do still have something a lot of airforces lack and that is incredably large air combat areas that are over land and that can't hurt


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> Ok, that makes sense. So the entire regiment, including auxiliaries, wears the citation and not just the 2nd battalion. I didn't know that.



That is pretty much the same for our unit. Our Regiment was not even formed until 1963 (I believe it was 1963, it may have been 1967). We have since then been assigned to the 1st Infantry Division and because we are assigned to them we wear a Unit Citation on our uniform that the 1st Infantry Division recieved for the D-Day landings. Our unit was not even around back then, hell they did not have Helicopter Regiments in 1944!


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## pbfoot (Nov 25, 2005)

I think the unit citation belongs to 2 ppcli the loyal edmonton regiment is considered 4 ppcli according to my research and the loyals are probably just a lodger unit of the 2ppcli meaning using there admin and supply guys etc


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 25, 2005)

So even though the Eddies are a reserve regiment, albeit attached to the PPCLI, they're actually considered 4 PPCLI? 
Boy, I'll just bet the regulars are happy about _that_.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 26, 2005)

LOL


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