# Most successful country post WW2



## michaelmaltby (Mar 18, 2010)

I have a great fondness for Finland. They are an example to the world of how deal with adversity - make lemonaide when handed lemons.

Consider their record. In 1917 when the Revolution broke out they almost went communist. They suffered economically in the '30s. Were invaded by the Soviets and eventually had to yield. Re-engaged again in 1941 with Germany against Russia. Negotiated a peace treaty unilaterally for which they had to (1) defeat their former ally- Germany, (2) give up territory, and (3) pay huge, huge reparations $$$. They turned *that *anchor around their feet into an incentive - building good stuff for the Soviets to pay off their "debts" and creating new industries and global markets.

To-day, Finland leads the world in wireless communications technology, is respected internationally, pays no "guilt-geld" for having being associated with the Nazis, and, I'm told, every Finn knows how to tango like a Latino .

Can anyone think of a more successful comeback for a country on the losing side of WW2?

MM


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## syscom3 (Mar 18, 2010)

The USA.

Completely dominated the worlds economy up to the 1980's.

Still the most completely dominate military power.

Still elite in technological and scientific prowess.


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## timshatz (Mar 18, 2010)

Think Germany did very well. So did Japan. Both rebounded astoundingly. 

Italy, Hungary, Romania....not so much.


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## imalko (Mar 18, 2010)

syscom3 said:


> The USA...


 
That may be so, but question was about countries on loosing side in WW2. 

Never gave it a much thought about this. What MM wrote about Finland is quite true. My first thought would be Japan though. Germany? Did OK I guess, but up to the 1989 only the west part of it.


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## Messy1 (Mar 18, 2010)

I'd be confident that Germany has made one hell of a comeback since WW2. Especially since it was divided in half for 50 years. Japan I would say may have done the best since WW2.


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## Waynos (Mar 18, 2010)

I'd say Japan too, they virtually took over the worlds motor and electronics industries.

I wouldn't include the USA even if the question did include any participant. The war did not break the USA like it did other countries. 

Its landmass and civilian population was almost completely unscathed and as armourer to the allies, with an unmolested industry, the war made the USA the powerhouse it has been ever since. The one nation for which WW2 was a profitable excercise.

The nation that came out of WW2 the worse off was almost certainly a choice between the USSR and the UK, ironically both on the winning side.


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## ToughOmbre (Mar 18, 2010)

Losing side most successful .....

Hard to argue for countries other than Japan and Germany with the devastation they had to come back from.

TO


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 18, 2010)

Since this is about the losing side and not the allied side...

I will have to go with Germany. Why? Lets see. Germany has come out of the ashes of WW2 as:

1. 4th largest economy in the world.
2. Europe's largest economy.
3. Continues to be one of the worlds leaders in technology, science and electronics.
4. Overcame being split into two nations and reunited (of which one of them was a communist puppet state).
5. The worlds 2nd largest exporter.

I think it is pretty hard to go against Germany with those stats (except for Japan of course).


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## pbfoot (Mar 18, 2010)

ToughOmbre said:


> Losing side most successful .....
> 
> Hard to argue for countries other than Japan and Germany with the devastation they had to come back from.
> 
> TO


I think the bevastation worked to their advantage as they were forced to retool new factories , tools etc meanwhile in North America the retooling was far later80's 90's letting us fall behind for a bit


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## tomo pauk (Mar 18, 2010)

Think that Italy fared pretty well after WW2 - the economy is bigger then of UK for a decade or two now. Despite the mayhem they had about governments and mafia...


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## syscom3 (Mar 18, 2010)

For the losers, Japan.

The devestation they received was in many spects worse than Germany. 

While it comes to consumer devices and production methods, Japan is the leader.


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## ToughOmbre (Mar 18, 2010)

pbfoot said:


> I think the bevastation worked to their advantage as they were forced to retool new factories , tools etc meanwhile in North America the retooling was far later80's 90's letting us fall behind for a bit



Good point pb, I agree.

TO


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## stasoid (Mar 18, 2010)

USA benefited the most. Politically, militarily, economicaly.
Japan, Germany, USSR.
Then smaller eastern earopean countries like Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, some of which almost doubled their territories due to pre- post- WW2 events, and eventually gained independence.

Finland? I dont see how Finland was affected by WW2. The country would evolve into what it is now with or without WW2. IMHO.


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## davebender (Mar 18, 2010)

The nation was falling apart by 1900 and central Government collapsed completely during 1911. 

From 1915 to 1945 they endured Japanese invasion and partial occupation. They also had a three way civil war between the KMT, communists and Japanese supported government in Beijing. Plus a bunch of regional warlords that no one outside China has heard of.

During 1945 to 1949 they had another civil war, this time between the KMT and Soviet backed communist government of Mao Zedong.

1950 to 1953 they fought the U.S. and South Korea, supposedly suffering a million casualties in that conflict.

During the late 1950s they fought a series of engagement s against Taiwan.

During 1962 China fought a major war with India. Plus several border skirmishes since then.

During the 1960s and 1970s China had several border fights with the Soviet Union.

During 1979 China fought a relatively large border war with Vietnam.

Around 1990 the Chinese economy began growing about 10% per year and it's still growing at a very healthy pace. Today they are the third largest economy in the world (after the USA and Japan). With another 10 years growth at this pace they are likely to become the second largest.

Not too shabby for a nation that was essentially a basket case for the first half of the 20th century.


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 18, 2010)

"... I don't see how Finland was affected by WW2. The country would evolve into what it is now with or without WW2. IMHO." With all respect, Stasoid, you wouldn't . Russia INVADED them post M-R pact. The Finns humiliated the Soviets BUT in the end the Soviets proved irresistible and the Finns Sue for peace in 1940. After Brarbarossa the Finns and the Germans became "friends". The 2nd WW is " the War of Continuation" - to Finns 

Finland is the canary in the goal-mine - only the canary has teeth "

Japan was culturally re-structured by General Doug. 

USA wasn't on the *loosing* side and was successful BEFORE WW2 

Germany - looks good - but the problem is that GERMANS WON'T FIGHT any more. Is that PROGRESS  You know it isn't.

Canada - unmentioned - has proven to be a serious contender - but has absorbed huge amounts of immigration - which in itself requires rethinking the country.

But Finland  - success against adversity and no ATTITUDE  (And they _GET_ hockey)

MM


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## stasoid (Mar 18, 2010)

michaelmaltby said:


> Finland is the canary in the goal-mine - only the canary has teeth "MM



Sorry michaelmaltby, I'm not sure I got what you're saying. Can you elaborate on Finland's gains?
Its political system hasnt been changed, neutral status maintained, technological breakthoughs somewhere in 80's (40 years after the war), no territorial gains... what else? High living standards? ... can partially be explained by counry's being untouched by the war (a border conflict with the soviets in 1940 too small in scale of the WW2).
Finland and the Soviet Union were good neighbors throughout the Cold War, if that's a result of the previouse confrontation and hostilities resolved towards the end of the war, that can be counted as a benefit for both sides. Friendly relations with your immediate neighbor are very important, we all know that.
What else do we know about Finland? Excuse my ignorance here.


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 19, 2010)

Finland lost quite a bit of territory to the Soviets (Karelian Peninsula). The country wasn't "untouched" it was quite heavily bombed in the '39-'40 Winter war. Finland and the USSR were good neighbors  - if you consider paying your neighbor millions and millions $$$$ in compensation for a 2-part war in which your neighbor invaded you in the first place. 

Finland is/was the "canary" because they were an early target for Soviet aggression - and demonstrated the difficulty of being a close neighbor of the Bear  - but - thanks to geography (and spirit) they successfully fought back to the point that the Soviets respected them.

They became expect I believe in making ice breakers for the Soviets, pulp and paper machines (Valmet engineering) not just cell phones 

Lemons into lemon aid.

MM


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## Glider (Mar 19, 2010)

Reminds me of a bad Irish Joke.

Patrick - Were in trouble Paddy the country is bust and everyone is out of work, what shall we do?

Paddy - Easy declare war on America

Patrick - America are you mad!!

Paddy - No we declare war, lose, get the aid and be the next Japan

Patrick - But Paddy, WHAT IF WE WIN


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## parsifal (Mar 19, 2010)

The nations most affected by the war were territories that were not even nations in 1945, or were so backward as to be not even in the 20th century. The success stories here are the leading ex-third world countries, like malaysia (emerged not even as a nation, plunged into civil war, then recovered, now the 12th ranking trading nation of the world....or Indonesia...a dark horse that has not yet reached its potential. then there is of course China and japan, and lurking in the shadows is india...all the economic and intellectual powerhouses of the future.

brush up on your chinese or Indian language skills guys, we are going to need it in the next 50 years or so


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## Messy1 (Mar 19, 2010)

Good post Parsifal. I did not think about the nations you listed.


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 19, 2010)

Yes - very good. And if you want to think about remarkable - think Cambodia post Pol Pot (Killing Fields).

MM


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 19, 2010)

michaelmaltby said:


> Germany - looks good - but the problem is that GERMANS WON'T FIGHT any more. Is that PROGRESS  You know it isn't.





How is it not? 

The German people are finally tired of blood shed, what is wrong with that and why is that bad?

In a 30 year time period approx. 10,933,597 Germans were killed (both military and civilian). Not a single family even today was not effected by the wars. Is it not hard to understand that they do not want war anymore?


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## machine shop tom (Mar 19, 2010)

Let's not forget the Marshall Plan that laid the groundwork for (West) Germany's turnaround and MacArthur's hand in Japan's comeback as well.

tom


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## imalko (Mar 19, 2010)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The German people are finally tired of blood shed, what is wrong with that and why is that bad?
> 
> In a 30 year time period approx. 10,933,597 Germans were killed (both military and civilian). Not a single family even today was not effected by the wars. Is it not hard to understand that they do not want war anymore?


 
Hm, that didn't stop them to take part in NATO bombing of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in 1999. I might be mistaken, but doesn't German constitution say that Germany should never again engage in armed conflict (except a defensive one I presume) against another country.

(Not trying to start political discussion here, just making an observation based on quoted post.)


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 19, 2010)

".... The German people are finally tired of blood shed, what is wrong with that and why is that bad."

Like sex - abstinence is as bad as over-indulgence. Two bad wars for the Germans - bad because they were the losing side and paid horribly. But surely there are matters worth fighting for - and there are matters that if they are allowed to go unchecked - threaten western democracy as we know it. Germany has prospered since WW - that doesn't mean it should denounce fighting for western democracy. 9-11 was a direct challenge to capitalism and western free-market, liberal democracy. 

I would like to see Germans fighting along side Germany's NATO allies - US, Canada, Australia, GB, Estonia, Poland, Romania, France ( don't want to miss anyone ) -- not sitting on the sidelines in non-combatant roles.

When a society has all instincts for fighting whipped out of it - it loses the capacity to fight for what is right.

Because Germany made 2 bad choices doesn't mean that Germany shouldn't step up and fight, IMHO.

MM


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 20, 2010)

imalko said:


> Hm, that didn't stop them to take part in NATO bombing of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in 1999. I might be mistaken, but doesn't German constitution say that Germany should never again engage in armed conflict (except a defensive one I presume) against another country.



(Not trying to start political discussion here, just making an observation based on quoted post.)[/QUOTE]

German aircraft did not drop any bombs. They flew recon missions. If your people had not been killing each other then there would have been no NATO bombing. That is a whole different topic though, and if you wish to discuss that start a different thread for it.

As to the other part. yes the German constitution allows for defensive operations and no offensive operations.



michaelmaltby said:


> ".... The German people are finally tired of blood shed, what is wrong with that and why is that bad."
> 
> Like sex - abstinence is as bad as over-indulgence. Two bad wars for the Germans - bad because they were the losing side and paid horribly. But surely there are matters worth fighting for - and there are matters that if they are allowed to go unchecked - threaten western democracy as we know it. Germany has prospered since WW - that doesn't mean it should denounce fighting for western democracy. 9-11 was a direct challenge to capitalism and western free-market, liberal democracy.
> 
> ...



You obviously have no clue about the German people. I suggest you come over here and talk to people and then you might understand. This is getting way off topic now though. Honestly I too would love to see them take a more offensive role, but actually living among the people here, I can understand why they do not want conflict anymore. When every person on my block here lost someone in the fighting of WW2 (yes every house hold on this block), I can certainly understand it. If they do not wish this, that is their choice and it is ignorant to wish something else upon them. This country does not want to see their loved ones die anymore, nothing wrong with that. Only people not effected in such a large way, would wish such things.

Like I said though, this is bordering off topic, lets not let it get that way.


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## Willszenith (Mar 20, 2010)

michaelmaltby said:


> ".... The German people are finally tired of blood shed, what is wrong with that and why is that bad."
> 
> Like sex - abstinence is as bad as over-indulgence. Two bad wars for the Germans - bad because they were the losing side and paid horribly. But surely there are matters worth fighting for - and there are matters that if they are allowed to go unchecked - threaten western democracy as we know it. Germany has prospered since WW - that doesn't mean it should denounce fighting for western democracy. 9-11 was a direct challenge to capitalism and western free-market, liberal democracy.
> 
> ...




wow genralise much? having been stationed in germany, and now currently working with german pilots there is now way they would back down from a fight. So many coldwar joint RAF/luftwaffe/Usaaf sorties flown, devised , revised and still continue in a nato role, that the germans are not only capable but easily some of the best in the world.

Finland? finland fought a defensive war, and fought admirably but thats it , they refused to get sucked into the rest of the conflict, they defended their territories and thats all, they didnt liberate nor were aggresors they just looked after themselves and their intrests.

Nokia market growth is slowing , the south koreans build better phones now...


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## Willszenith (Mar 20, 2010)

oh and the swiss are the real winners... all those nazi funds...


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## conkerking (Mar 20, 2010)

syscom3 said:


> The USA.
> 
> Completely dominated the worlds economy up to the 1980's.
> 
> ...



Success = domination?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 20, 2010)

Willszenith said:


> oh and the swiss are the real winners... all those nazi funds...



Except they were not a combatant. This was supposed to be about the losing side.


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 20, 2010)

Wow - me - step in it or what - .

"You obviously have no clue about the German people." You're right - CrewChief - only those who have immigrated to Canada - and many of *those* Germans-now-Canadians I know very well indeed.  Much respect and affection for them - but like Brits that have immigrated here one observes the latent effects of Europe on their thinking and values. 

"... wow genralise much? having been stationed in germany, and now currently working with german pilots there is now way they would back down from a fight. So many coldwar joint RAF/luftwaffe/Usaaf sorties flown, devised , revised and still continue in a nato role, that the germans are not only capable but easily some of the best in the world.

Finland? finland fought a defensive war, and fought admirably but thats it.

*Willszenith* - Without generalization humankind would not have language - we'd still be sniffing and touching to understand unique specifics. (Watch a three-month old to understand life before generalizations )

I don't recall saying anything about Germans not being courageous warriors. Please don't put insinuations in my mouth 
Glad that YOU have had the opportunity to observe joint LW air ops.

Regarding Finland - please support your claim with proof that Finnish forces *didn'*t advance into the Leningrad front with their German allies in the Continuation War. And post Peace Treaty - that Finnish forces* didn't* tackle their former German allies in the far north - Norway (?) - on orders - as part of the peace terms with the Soviets. 

I agree with any and all who state that a government *should* have the right to legislate that their "forces" be only used for "defense" or "peacekeeping". That is the story of Canada's Armed Forces from post Korea to Bosnia. While that position is admirable I suggest it leads to a loss of political will - over time. Accommodation is a wonderful social philosophy that makes countries like Canada possible. But at a certain point in time - the load tips, the balance shifts - 9-11 was one of those moments. Pearl Harbor was clear-cut, open and shut. But the political climate was different. People didn't walk around on December 10, 1941 saying things like "America deserved this", or "the Jews all stayed home", and the crowds weren't dancing in the streets in California's Nippon Village. 

9-11 was war. The plotters used a generous German social program (among other countries' as well) to plot and plan. Why Germans would* not *recognize that with time - German society and values are a much at risk as America's - and especially when their neighbor the U.K. has become a hydroponic flower bed for *home grown* terrorists - is beyond me.

So I have suggested that Germany is not pulling its share of the weight in Af'stan. I stand by that. Germany we need you. Step up, please.

And the same for Japanese society. It's time to dig up the bodies, re-bury them at return to living in the real world.
Democracy - which has served both Germany and Japan very well since 1945 - is at a cross roads. Nuclear Iran. Crazy North Korea. Influence-hungry Saudi Arabia. And the legitimate State of Israel are NOT going to just disappear any more that Hitler or Stalin did.

Proud Canadian

MM


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## parsifal (Mar 20, 2010)

I would agree that germany and japan staged the most remarkable recovery, but I am doubtful that these nations benefitted the most out of the war 9I am ignoring the most successful axis nation).

Germany prewar was about the third or fourth ranked nation in the world stage. As a result of her defeat she fell almost to oblivion, but with the help of marshall aid managed to regain her position of third or fourth most powerful nation in the world. in other words she recovered from the war, but in terms of worlld position, did not benefit from it.

The Japanese started 6th or 7th on the world stage, and has probably one or two spaces ....a slight improvement. In terms of standards of living both nations have done extremely well. Both nations have rejected militarism, but in Germany's case worrying racial trends rremain with regard to fringe minorities like the neo- nazis and the like...

Nations like Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc have done well with post war migration and the cementing of their position in the world stage as raw materials provideres, and stable democracies. Finland is in a similar category to this, but its hard to argue they are the countries that did best out of the war.

As I sais, i think that some of the third world countries have done remarkably well out of the war...countries like india and china started from so far behind....now look at them....


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 20, 2010)

Parsifal - as always I agree with your analysis. If you return to my original premise - I spoke of turning lemons into lemonade .
The Finns are my personal choice because they took real adversity and dealt with it - and moved on. Countries that "blame" their history on others' actions don't advance - just like people - they don't mature. Accountability is what we have a right to expect from people and governments alike. 

MM


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 20, 2010)

michaelmaltby said:


> So I have suggested that Germany is not pulling its share of the weight in Af'stan. I stand by that. Germany we need you. Step up, please.



I think they are doing a fine job within the confines of the constitution.


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 20, 2010)

Spoken as a German or as an American - their constitution or yours? 

Just curious.

MM


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 20, 2010)

michaelmaltby said:


> Spoken as a German or as an American - their constitution or yours?
> 
> Just curious.
> 
> MM



I spoke it as an *American* who believes that a country has to decide for themselves on whether they want to fight or not, and *NO* country or any person can say otherwise. They have chosen to have a constitution that prevents offensive operations, that is their choice, and they are doing a good job within their constitution. We also have no right to demand they change it either. That is what makes them a sovereign nation. If they were to choose to change it, fine, I would stand by them for it. 

As stated before I personally would like to see them change it and be more offensive, but I can completely understand why they do not wish to be an offensive and fighting nation. I have lived among the people for many many years and understand them. One can not base a true opinion off only speaking with Germans that have immigrated. I have spoken with a few Canadians who I served in the US Army with, I will not base my opinion off of Canadians based off the few that I served with.

The country has decided for themselves that they have caused and seen enough blood shed. Come over here and drive into any little town and you will such things as below. These pictures were taken in the town that I live in at the moment. It has a population of about 3000, count the names on this monument. Every town has one of these.


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 20, 2010)

"... These pictures were taken in the town that I live in at the moment. It has a population of about 3000, count the names on this monument. Every town has one of these."

Well then - by that logic - Americans should have come to their senses and *denounced war* after the Civil War - based on the frequency of monuments and cenotaphs in small town America. In hindsight - would that have better served western civilization and humanity? I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN POSITIVE. 

Photo is Streetsville, Canada



MM


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## Maximowitz (Mar 20, 2010)

michaelmaltby said:


> "... These pictures were taken in the town that I live in at the moment. It has a population of about 3000, count the names on this monument. Every town has one of these."
> 
> Well then - by that logic - Americans should have come to their senses and *denounced war* after the Civil War - based on the frequency of monuments and cenotaphs in small town America. In hindsight - would that have better served western civilization and humanity? I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN POSITIVE.
> 
> ...



There are war memorials in every country. Every one of them stands as testimony to human stupidity and lives lost for nothing. When humanity finally grows up and takes responsibility for its own existence there will be no need for them.



I'm not holding my breath.


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 20, 2010)

"... Every one of them stands as testimony to human stupidity and lives lost for nothing."

Really Max - is that how you really feel - sitting at your computer reacting freely and honestly to this thread? Your freedom is worth "nothing"? In China - people are looking over their shoulders on the Internet.

Proud Canadian
MM


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 20, 2010)

michaelmaltby said:


> "... These pictures were taken in the town that I live in at the moment. It has a population of about 3000, count the names on this monument. Every town has one of these."
> 
> Well then - by that logic - Americans should have come to their senses and *denounced war* after the Civil War - based on the frequency of monuments and cenotaphs in small town America. In hindsight - would that have better served western civilization and humanity? I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN POSITIVE.
> 
> ...



You are completely ignoring my point. My point being that the people have chosen to rebuild their country in this way because of these things. It is not a "by that logic" kind of thing...

You can not expect every nation and people to be the same. They are tired of having been a part of the 2 worst wars that have ever taken place. Families do not want to bury more of their loved ones, they have buried enough of them in such a short time period. I think that if our nations the United States and Canada were to experience what Germany has on our own soils (no neither of our countries have experience total war of this magnitude on our own soils), we might think differently as well. Since we have not, we can not judge them...



michaelmaltby said:


> "... Every one of them stands as testimony to human stupidity and lives lost for nothing."
> 
> Really Max - is that how you really feel - sitting at your computer reacting freely and honestly to this thread? Your freedom is worth "nothing"? In China - people are looking over their shoulders on the Internet.
> 
> ...



Actually he is partially correct. We as a human race are stupid and war is terrible and stupid. I don't know any soldier that has been in a combat environment (myself included) that wishes to see it again. I however would not say that any of these monuments are for soldiers that died for nothing. Especially those that fought to rid the world of tyranny.

Any nation that chooses peace over war is doing the correct thing. Now don't go and take what I said of context (I am sure you are going to do so right here). I am not saying that we should not fight for what we believe in, and wars are inevitable. I am also not saying that we as should stand aside and never fight for what is right and for the good of the civilized world. I am not a hippie waving a peace sign or anything. I have no regrets about my military service, I support the military 100% in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I just think that the world would be a much better place if we all (the whole world) got our heads out of our asses and did not try and kill each other all the damn time.


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 20, 2010)

"(I am sure you are going to do so right here)." That's mean.  

Your point is taken: " the world would be a much better place if we all (the whole world) got our heads out of our asses and did not try and kill each other all the damn time."

What's not to like about that. 

MM


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 21, 2010)

I wish Juha was posting these days - he'd have much to add on Finnland, I'm sure. Where is Juha? 

MM


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