# Yankee Iron.....or V8's if you like.



## Lucky13 (Jan 15, 2011)

Being a huge american car fan (up to the 60's or '70, '71 anyway) or most old car and bikes, I was wondering who of the Big 3 built the better engines? Never mind the hp (Mopar will always have the Hemi), was there any of them that could take more of a beating than the others, that made working with them, maybe not a dream, but not as much as a hassle while working under the hood (bonnet)? What about the rear axle, which were stronger?

Remember reading an article once, by some guy who used to work for Chrysler and the streetraces at the lights that they used to have in Detroit back in the day, in the '50's and '60's.....must have been fun!


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jan 15, 2011)

Jan, as far as the rear axles are concerned the Dana 60 is probably the most bullet proof of the bunch with the Ford 9" coming in a close second. As far as the engines, a stock Hemi with two four barrel carbs felt like a 318 two barrel off the line until you got it to about 4,000 rpms, once it got to 4grand though you had better have your $h!t together cause it was going to start hunting a ditch in short order. A 440 Six Pak could out run a Hemi in the quarter mile hands down. Both being factory stock. Probably the most brutish package ever released from Detroit was the 1970 Chevrolet Chevelle Super Sport with the LS-6 454 cubic inch motor. These cars were rated (underrated) at 460 horsepower. That's all I can come up with for now. Wish I could remember the torque of the LS motor.


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## GrauGeist (Jan 15, 2011)

Tough question...they all had thier merits and thier shortcomings. By the way, don't forget that AMC built some street contenders.

Chevy's big block and small block engines were easy to work on and very interchangable. The downside was trying to do distributor work or R&R the starter, especially if just the solonoid needed replacing. Any V-8 between 1956 and 1973 would be a keeper, regardless of cubic inch...

Ford's engines were good overall, especially any Cleveland block. The Windsor blocks were good to a degree and buildable, but the Midland blocks were heavy pigs and prone to dumping thier cranks because of crappy castings.

AMC had three very good engines, the 401 , the 390 and the 304. Downside was that alot of thier parts were from other auto manufacturers that varied by year (pain in the a$$ when trying to get parts for 'em)...

Chrystler did have some good engines, but they also had some real dogs. I think that the 340 was actually thier best all around performer, easy to work on, easy to get parts for and real dependable both stock or built up.

As far as rear ends go, a narrowed 9 inch is the way to go for a decent street rod...if you're going to get medieval, then consider a Dana since they're virtually indestructable.


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## michaelmaltby (Jan 15, 2011)

"... don't forget that AMC built some street contenders."

I'm not interested in street contenders, but I'm on my 3rd 4L - 200 hp inline AMC 6 with iron block and hydraulic lifters - half a mil Kms on each of the first 2 Jeeps, @ 253K on the third (driving now - Red Jeep Cherokee sport).


American iron is the best iron - it was built to be re-built, not trashed like today's multi-valve aluminum timing-belt driven sewing machines.

Fuel economy isn't everything. 

MM


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## Lucky13 (Jan 16, 2011)

Cheers fellas...


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## bobbysocks (Jan 16, 2011)

chrysler had some interesting engines. the hemi of course but also the 429 semi hemi which was a wedge head. they put that in stock furys. the 383 even with a 2bl carb had some balls.

fords cobra and boss engines were pretty big. the boss was a PITA to change plugs on if i remember right. you either had to jack up the engine or drill holes in the wheel wells.

still love a 327 chevy. its my all time fav. that with its little sister the 283was a mainstay for a long time. great overall engines and could be hi-poed a ton of different ways.


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## Lucky13 (Jan 16, 2011)

The 426 with crossram intakes looks wild! 429 semi hemi??


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## pbfoot (Jan 16, 2011)

without a doubt the 265.283,327 350 series from GM the best Mopar was the slant 6


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## GrauGeist (Jan 16, 2011)

Personally, the most brute force, bone-stock V-8 I ever owned was an L-31 409 (from a '63 Impala SS). That "W" head config topped with Offenhauser finned valve covers and a six-pack intake (topped with Niccson Engineering clamshells) made for one good looking engine (and kickass performer)!

The most fun I've ever had with an engine was my L-6 racing engine project based on a 1962 194 C.I.D. straight six.


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## mikewint (Jan 16, 2011)

Lucky, way back in the day, 1961, I bought a mercury marauder with a 390 V8. we removed the engine bored the cylinder .030 over bore, stroked the crank, shaved the heads, used a copper head gasket, a 3/4 race Isky cam plus oversized valve springs. Initially I had 3 - 2bbls but balancing was always a problem. Went to Holley's 6bbl carburetor, but finally settled on dual quads. A 4-speed trans with Hurst shifter and a 454 posi rear end. Used to easily run 11s quarters at the US 30 drag strip. Would only burn Sunoco 260 fuel at $0.39 per gallon without knocking and could not be started while hot. Mileage was usually 4 - 5mi per gallon. Ate hemis and 409s for breakfast


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jan 16, 2011)

Lucky13 said:


> The 426 with crossram intakes looks wild! 429 semi hemi??



The 429 semi hemi was a Ford motor referred to as the Boss 429.


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## Lucky13 (Jan 16, 2011)

Aaron Brooks Wolters said:


> The 429 semi hemi was a Ford motor referred to as the Boss 429.



Aaaahh......ok. Cheers Aaron!


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## bobbysocks (Jan 16, 2011)

Aaron Brooks Wolters said:


> The 429 semi hemi was a Ford motor referred to as the Boss 429.



 you are right. dont know why i remembered it being a mopar. been out of it way too long i guess.


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jan 16, 2011)

No problem. I get crossed up in the aircraft so I know how it can be.


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## Lucky13 (Jan 16, 2011)

Have to admit, unwillingly though......that I do like the GM 348 and 409!


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## javlin (Jan 16, 2011)

I like the Ford 351W over the Cleveland myself and also the Chevrolets.The Cleveland has 2.5" mains while the Windsor has 3" mains plus the Clevelands valve guide setup sucks after some running turns into a shifting pattern.In the years I worked in a machine shop I seen a few Pooprolets(shop name) sh*t all over themselves with the #1 rod out the side of the block.This occurred I believe just that it was the furthest away from the oil pump but you have the same on any engine.The other thing with chevs is that the the two center exhaust ports are in the center of the head next to each other alot of heat if it's going to crack it is here seen that a bit.I could almost bet my last dollar if a customer brought me an intergrated 6cyl head or a Chevette head 90% of the time it was cracked for that very reason.The Ford guys I think screwed up in the early 80's when they came out with the hollow 302 cranks we saw a couple of those come in broke slap in two.I do appreciate the way Chevrolet internally balanced there engines as opposed to Fords being balanced by a matching harmonic balancer and flywheel.Finally Chevy is cheap to build for sure but I build a Windsor since the block and crank is similiar to Nascar.The crank on a Windsor when you p/u is almost as heavy as a 429 crank(i have built both) and torque is weight in moition and to get big block torque almost out of a small block w/hp and revs is a big plus in my book.To much info I guess,I digress.


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jan 16, 2011)

Excellent explanations Javlin!! I did not realize there was that much difference between the Windsor and Cleveland blocks as far as journal size.


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## Lucky13 (Jan 16, 2011)

Agree....cheers Javlin!

Got to love those old flatheads as well, can make them look soooo saweet!


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## GrauGeist (Jan 16, 2011)

Yep Aaron, he's right-on with that. A 429 Windsor is an overlooked powerhouse...not sure why everyone gives a Cleveland block so much prestige...

Probably the same reason people think 454 as a beast but completely overlook the wicked 455.


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jan 16, 2011)

Jan, have you ever seen a Flatty look like this? And look, it's got the 3 twos on it to.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


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## bobbysocks (Jan 16, 2011)

chevy 350s seemed to all have that one ticking lifter...after x amount of miles. never did anything but was annoying. even STP wouldnt do much to quiet it.


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jan 16, 2011)

Bobby, if I'm not mistaken it wasn't the lifter but the rocker arm.


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## javlin (Jan 16, 2011)

What engine is that Aaron?I would venture to guess a Ford by the way the exhaust is set and dist.location and my first guess was a 312 but the head shape looks alittle off from what I remember.


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## GrauGeist (Jan 16, 2011)

Are those Strombergs on top of that blower??


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jan 16, 2011)

Guys, THAT is a Lincoln Flat head with a set of Ardun heads and a think a Mooneyham blower. Ain't she purty? And yes Dave, they are.


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jan 16, 2011)

GrauGeist said:


> Yep Aaron, he's right-on with that. A 429 Windsor is an overlooked powerhouse...not sure why everyone gives a Cleveland block so much prestige...
> 
> Probably the same reason people think 454 as a beast but completely overlook the wicked 455.



I though the 429 and the 460 were the only two in that family of motors, I have not ever known what the code was for them like the FE engine family which was the 390, 406, 427,428, and I think the 361. The Windsors were the 289, 302, and the 351. The only Cleveland I know of was the other 351. There may have been one or two other but I have not ever been knowledgeable of them.
As far as the 454 (Chevrolet) and the 455s (Buick, Oldsmobile, and Pontiac) all being different from one another. The 455s were excellent motors but it was far cheaper to build the big block Chevy than it was to build any of the other three.


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## Lucky13 (Jan 17, 2011)

What a gem! But, too much chrome and shiny stuff on it!  Whould have liked some colour on the engine block etc....otherwise a real beauty! 8)


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## Lucky13 (Jan 17, 2011)

8)


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## javlin (Jan 17, 2011)

The 351W was really all buy itself.The block deck is 1" taller than the 289 or 302 and is 1" wider as well.The 351c came about 68-69(?) into mid 70's some with the 4bbl heads that really did not start working till 4000 rpm probably.There was two other engines in that same lineup as the Cleveland and they were the 351M-400M(mid70's) used alot in trucks.The 429-460 are the same block and you forgot one in the Fe line there Aaron the 391.The 361391 were generally used for industrial truck applications(dump trucks) and the "1" for no other reason (I'm guessing) was to denote the sodium filled valves.

I wanted to add that in you lined up the blocks on the floor bare 289,351 and the 429 they all look very similiar just getting bigger.I would say the block itself was a good design now the heads for each is another story when you get to the 429/460.


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## woody (Jan 17, 2011)

Lets not forget about the buick 455 GS stage III 463hp. 510lb-ft.


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## bobbysocks (Jan 17, 2011)

nor the 389 with a tri power set up. dont really remember how great was but i remember selling a lot of high performance stuff for them. back in 60s and early 70s there was so much great stuff. and i had a whole section of nithing but Mr. Gasket, crane cams, accell dual point gold ignition, chrome and aluminum valve...timing gear covers...oil pans....etc. about the mid 70s when the big gas crunch came it seems where i lived interest dwindled severly in souping up cars. trail bikes and snow mobiles were hitting the market strong. i ended up stocking a limited supply and would do more things by order. the local speed shop folded up. i do miss those days...


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## Lucky13 (Jan 17, 2011)

One bL**dy pic won't show in #28!


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jan 17, 2011)

I see four shots Jan. How many are there? Oh, let me guess, you can't see the last one?


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jan 17, 2011)

javlin said:


> The 351W was really all buy itself.The block deck is 1" taller than the 289 or 302 and is 1" wider as well.The 351c came about 68-69(?) into mid 70's some with the 4bbl heads that really did not start working till 4000 rpm probably.There was two other engines in that same lineup as the Cleveland and they were the 351M-400M(mid70's) used alot in trucks.The 429-460 are the same block and you forgot one in the Fe line there Aaron the 391.The 361391 were generally used for industrial truck applications(dump trucks) and the "1" for no other reason (I'm guessing) was to denote the sodium filled valves.
> 
> I wanted to add that in you lined up the blocks on the floor bare 289,351 and the 429 they all look very similiar just getting bigger.I would say the block itself was a good design now the heads for each is another story when you get to the 429/460.





So does this mean then that the 429/460 were actually larger Windsor units? I have always been curious because I have never heard anyone say what (family) this block was actually in or if it was in one of it's own.


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## javlin (Jan 18, 2011)

Aaron Brooks Wolters said:


> So does this mean then that the 429/460 were actually larger Windsor units? I have always been curious because I have never heard anyone say what (family) this block was actually in or if it was in one of it's own.



I will have to ask one of my cohorts in crime on that I do not think so Aaron for some reason the Windsor title came from the factory or city?I seen today and I really never paided much attention to 4.6L Windsor for an 02 Expedition.The head on a Windsor was much like the 289/302 head just a different shaped chamber and alittle bigger valves both intake and exhaust on the 4BBl heads on the 69 300hp 11:1 configuration.Thats the engine I built with with a .560/.308 cam Offie Manifold,750cfm tricked Holley,close ratio racing top loader 4/sp and a 9" posi/limited slip w/456 gears.That motor was a haus!The first time I popped the clutch after 50miles of break in it seemed all she wanted to do was go from 1st to 4th .I loved that car 70 GT Torino fastback.

The 429/460 heads were more in away kinda like the Cleveland head but not.Cheers


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## javlin (Jan 18, 2011)

I think this will answer some questions...........

The Windsor is a 90-degree small-block V8 engine from Ford Motor Company. It was introduced in 1962, replacing the previous Ford Y-block engine. Though not all of the engines in this family were produced at the Windsor, Ontario engine plant (all Ford small blocks came from Cleveland, Ohio until 1966), the name stuck. The mid-sized 335 "Cleveland" V8, introduced in 1970, was to replace the larger Windsors, but this design ended up outliving its replacement. In 1991, the Windsor engine began to be phased out and replaced with Ford's new 4.6 L Modular V8 engine. In 1996, Ford replaced the 5.0 L (302 cu in) pushrod Windsor V8 with the Modular 4.6 L in the Mustang. Its use in production vehicles continued until 1997 in the F-150 and until 2001 in the Explorer. From the mid-70s through the 90s, the Windsor engine was marinized and used in many inboard boats. As of 2008, the Windsor engines including the 5.8 L (351 cu in) and 5.0 L (cu in. 302) are still being manufactured; they are available as complete crate motors from Ford Racing and Performance Parts

Ford Windsor engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

now this talks about some tech stuff w/video

The 351 Windsor is a 351 cu V8 engine. During its beginnings in 1969, the engine featured a 1.3 inches taller deck height thus increasing the stroke to be 3.5 inches. Some of the other features which make this engine unique include a tall deck block, larger main bearing caps, thicker and longer connecting rods and a firing order that is unique.  

Many newbies tend to confuse the 351 Windsor with the 351 Cleveland. Yet, the 351 Cleveland is completely different because it has a bore and stroke of 4.0 x 3.5, is light in weight and has a limited horsepower range. Plus, the main thing is that the 351 Windsor belongs to the 90 degree family whereas the 351 Cleveland doesn’t. 

If you’re interested in just getting your hands on a 351 Windsor engine, then you’ll like to know that Carroll Shelby’s engine company has introduced a new aluminum Ford 351 Windsor engine for kit car builders in February 2009. It is so light and can be bored and stroked to 427 cubes. Shelby sure is proud of this engine, especially with it being very much lighter than the previous Ford cast iron 351 Windsor

351 Windsor Engine + Shelby Cobra = WOW (Video) - Magazine - Connecting Kit Car Enthusiasts Worldwide | KitCarConnection.com


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jan 20, 2011)

Very interesting info Javlin, thank you sir.


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## icepac (Jan 21, 2011)

FE ford was also available in 410 for use in mercury cars.

The engine I find really interesting are the MEL (mercury, edsel, lincoln) series that culminated in a 462 found in those slab sided lincoln continentals with suicide doors.

Many of the best performing engines have very little reputation like the "ram air 400" trim pontiac 400 which propelled pontiacs substantially faster than any 455 did.

The 455 olds from the toronado was a moster engine rated near 390hp and 500ft pounds of torque.....just use the torque and resist the temptation to rev it and it will last forever.

Seems the toronado engine posted bigger numbers than the non-toronado trim engines for some reason. Olds did some pretty radical stuff you wouldn't expect from them.






Favorite big chrysler is the 413 max wedge with crossram manifolds but the champion overachiever mopar engine is definately the 340.






Best place to start with amc is a 401 since they came with steel cranks (most anyway) and can be found in some relatively recent international vehicles.....I really want to put a 401 into one of these......a 1979 to 1983 amc spirit compact but then again, I did some performance work on the 4.0 and I think I can get 700hp from one.






Chevy was not to be left out with it's flavor of overachieving small block with cross ram in the DZ code 1969 z28.






old engines are cool but the engines I currently work on are light years ahead in that I can see the entire valve from 6 inches away when looking down the lower intake manifold on the new lexus engines or this monster I'm currently working on which should be putting down 2500hp..........on the street.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMuPknhk67I_

I seem to be going the opposite direction on my personal cars as I just arranged to have a nissan straight six diesel shipped over that will be turbocharged and dropped into my infiniti m30 which should net 250 ft pounds of torque and near 40mpg on the highway since I currently drive nearly 80 miles per day to and from work.


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jan 23, 2011)

I have seen a Gremlin with a factory installed 401 and a four speed. Talk about a hand full. The car was documented so I'm pretty sure it was legit.


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## Messy1 (Jan 27, 2011)

Might have been a Gremlin X A.B.W. Not sure if they ever installed a 401 in that from factory, but they might have. AMC was capable of doing some cool cars, Rebel Machine, SC Rambler, Hornet SC (IIRC), and of coarse the AMX's and Javelins. My dad has owned 2 390 AMX's, both with the GO Package option. I have owned a Matador, maybe 76 or so. Also have a 401 sitting in a shed at the family farm awaiting a future project. 
I am a die hard Mopar and AMC fan. The 440 with the 3 carb setup was a bargain back in the day, about half the price of the Hemi, and it took a perfectly tuned Hemi to beat it. For Mopar reliability, there is no beating the Slant 6 family of engines. I've always been impressed with Ford's 300 straight 6 for reliability. Chevy's SB of course have been proven very reliable.


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## Messy1 (Jan 27, 2011)

For a relatively unknown powerhouse, Studebaker made a series of supercharged 304 engines that were powerful, high performing little buggers for the early 60's.


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jan 27, 2011)

The guy who owns the car was the radio DJ that always did the skit with the 55 gallon drum of Whoop A$$. I can't remember his name. A friend of mine was restoring the car.


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## javlin (Jan 27, 2011)

Messy1 said:


> I've always been impressed with Ford's 300 straight 6 for reliability. Chevy's SB of course have been proven very reliable.



We use to back in the day take a 300 Ford bore it .120" and drop 390 piston in it took it out to a 312.It would depend on the track size(dirt) but these engines allthough short lived could keep up with a V-8.As I mentioned before torque is weight in motion and these engines pulled hard coming out of a corner then the V-8 might be catching up at the next corner but you pull it coming out,cheap motor.Cheers


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## javlin (Jan 27, 2011)

IcePac I remember even back in the 80's the old 340 Dodge was a needle in a haystack every guy hoped he had one.I think they only came out in 11:1 compression with there own set of heads.I hear you on the new stuff but even though I am in the field I leave the new stuff to the younger guys to fill.it just seems alot of the performance is a programmer or a chip.I was impressed with a fella who built his own computer and a program he wrote for it I think in a Mazda of some sorts with a turbo.Cheers

Oh yea was the video of the turbo for a FordGt that has got to be the hottest car to me.


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## Messy1 (Jan 28, 2011)

340 was a very good motor, large bore and short stroke. Only reason it was killed off was that it had a hard time meeting the tightening emission standards. It's replacement the 360 is and was no slouch either, 6 1/8" rod length, 3.58 stroke. With a 4" crank you can get 410 cubes out of a 360, big block cubes without the weight penalty.


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## icepac (Jan 28, 2011)

And 2 door dodge aspens and magnums are now fetching pretty high prices.

Who would have thought?


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## Njaco (Jan 28, 2011)

Ok, so we have the 351 Windsor and the 351 Cleveland but I remember working on Ford trucks in the 70s and 80s that had 351 Modifieds. 

Whats the difference?


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## Messy1 (Jan 28, 2011)

The 351M/400 was basically a stroked out 351C. Increased stroke, deck height, and main journal size.


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## icepac (Jan 29, 2011)

Those 351 and 400m engines were bizarre.

The throttle was just a volume control for the engine and not much else.


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jan 29, 2011)

Yeah, but it didn't take a lot to make them run like a raped ape.


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## Njaco (Jan 29, 2011)

icepac said:


> Those 351 and 400m engines were bizarre.
> 
> The throttle was just a volume control for the engine and not much else.



Amen brother!


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## dirkpitt289 (Oct 20, 2012)

To the original question of engines like you said hard to beat a Hemi but I was into FORDs Boss motors , the 302, 351 and my favorite the 429 which was in the KarKraft Mustangs and the Cougar Eliminators. They also found their way into some Comet's and Maverick's (Fast Eddie). Hell the motor probably weighed as much as the entire car.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 20, 2012)

'69 Boss 302..





'69 Boss 429..

Question is, would getr either in '69 or go with Shelby's Cobra?

The 426 Hemi gave new meaning to the term “big block” as it was the heaviest engine produced at the time or even since as far as gasoline engines are concerned. The lightest engine was the Ford 427 which tipped the scales at around 650 pounds. The Chevrolet big block rang up about 685 as a 396 engine. And the 426 Hemi was overkill at an amazing 843 pounds. It was called the “elephant” motor not just because of its weight but its size. Seems like it was the heaviest, but, was it also the biggest in size?


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## bobbysocks (Oct 29, 2012)

reminds me of the chase scene in Bullitt....loved that flick.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4mLNnxZM38_


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## Lucky13 (Nov 4, 2012)

Maybe a bit much on the chrome but, still V8 porn! 8)


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Nov 4, 2012)

I may be mistaken Jan but I do believe that is a Ardun headed Flat head Ford. They used these aftermarket heads to get more power out of the Flatty.


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## Lucky13 (Nov 4, 2012)

That it is indeed young man...


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## GrauGeist (Nov 4, 2012)

Also, Edelbrock and Offenhauser both made excellent heads for the 49A...

But your best bet was to scrounge up a Mercury block and go from there, since the Mercs had larger cubes (hard to tell the 49 - 54 blocks apart visually, except the mercs had a larger crank counterweight) 

*edit* lmao...Aaron, look at that block again...it's not a flathead 

Flathead Ford/Mercs had waterpumps at the lead of each head...that's a Mopar Hemi


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## Lucky13 (Nov 5, 2012)

_Say what now!?_

Is that a Mopar Hemi _with Ardun valve covers!?_ 

What is it the pre tell, '331, '354, '392?


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## Lucky13 (Nov 18, 2012)

Would look good in any proper rod! 8)


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## Lucky13 (Nov 18, 2012)

So pretty! 8)

















Would have looked even better with 8 of these! 8)


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## bromhead (Dec 19, 2012)

She is upgraded all the way around ,,,Orig,,292,,,quality build,,new big Holly,heads,,pertronix,,port,polish,,be cool alumn,,vintage headers,,Borg warner t10 ,,,and the car is fun too


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## Lucky13 (Aug 19, 2013)

Eye candy....


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## Readie (Aug 19, 2013)

Indeed Jan. I would have thought that the exhaust manifolds on the red motor earlier in this thread could have been better designed. Hardly 'free flow'. Plus a **** off turbo would love all that exhaust gas too


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## Lucky13 (Aug 11, 2014)

The Early Hemi Guide of Death - Hot Rod Magazine


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## Messy1 (Aug 18, 2014)

For modern engines, Chevy's LS series are very impressive. So is Ford's coyote engines. We see big horsepower numbers just by tuning, but add a turbo or supercharger and 700-900hp is easily achievable.


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Aug 19, 2014)

javlin said:


> What engine is that Aaron?I would venture to guess a Ford by the way the exhaust is set and dist.location and my first guess was a 312 but the head shape looks alittle off from what I remember.



It is a Lincoln Flathead with a set of Ardun heads and a blower. Sorry I am so late with this.


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