# The best biplane fighter of the war



## Samu (Mar 6, 2004)

I like a lot the biplanes, so what was the best fighter? I have ear about the Cr 42 and the Gladiator, but what do you think?


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 6, 2004)

i like biplanes a lot too, sadly i know very little about them


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## kiwimac (Mar 6, 2004)

The Gladiator and the CR 42 were the very best biplane fighters ever built. 
It is impossible to choose between them.

Kiwimac


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 7, 2004)

I'm gonna blow on my own trumpet here and say that i know a hell of alot about Gloster Gladiators as i've been studying them and their history for some time - i also know a fair bit about other biplanes and though i agree with Kiwi that the Gladiator was one of the best biplanes ever built (in my opinion the best) but i disagree that it is impossible to say if it was better than the Fiat Cr.42 - it was!!  

I'll tell you why:

The main advantage the Cr.42 had over the Gladiator was speed - but it was only in face 36mph faster than the Gladiator - although this is a substancial amount- its hardly groundbreaking is it? 


A)The Gladiator had better weapons than the Fiat with four .303 colt
browning machine guns next to the Fiats two 0.50in machine guns
B)It had a better range than the Fiat (Gladiator 440miles, Fiat 416miles) 
which was perfect for escort duties or patrols/raids over enemy lines
C) Although it is a point to be argued wether or not the Gladiator was 
More manouvorable than the Fiat it can be somewhat proved by these 
accounts by Gladiator pilots in combat reports: This is an account from 
two Gladiator pliots from the 94th Squadron that engaged two Cr.42s in 
Africa "I saw two Cr.42s quite close to me at 1,500ft, circling to gain 
height. I flew towards them and at the same time they both saw me 
and turned towards me. I closed with lthe leading one and after a few 
seconds manoeuvring I suceeded in turning inside it and fired two long 
bursts at the cockpit, which immediately became a mass of flames and 
the aircraft at once fell nose-first to the ground, blazing fiercely" The 
other Cr.42 had latched onto the other Gladiator "A Cr.42 fighter 
appeared and got on my tail. After a few minutes manoeuvring i was 
able to get a good attacking position and fired my guns. The enemy 
aircrafts engine stopped and pilot started to glide, i attacked again and 
as the enemy aircrafts wheels touched the ground it went over first on 
one wing, then the other" 

In this particular instance two Gladiator fighters were able to engage and overcome two fiat cr.42s without any difficulty and despite the fact that the italians had clearly spotted the Gladiators before combat ensued - of course this is partly down to pilot skill but i think it indicates undoubably that the Gladiator was more manoeuverable that its Italian counterpart 
D) The Gladiator was more widespread (due to foreign sales) it was purchased and used by the RAF in some of the following countries Norway, China (In fact the first victims of the Gladiator were the Japanese during their scuffles with the Chinese in 1937-38), Iraq, Ireland, Russia, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Greece, Africa to name a few -freezing wastelands to scorching deserts...the oeprational history of the Fiat was not that varied only being purchased in any real number from the Germans and the Swedish - they mainly operated from Europe and Africa. 
E) The Gladiators maximum ceiling was 33,200ft wereas the fiat was only capable of 32,265ft

I think it is safe to say from the evidence here that the Gladiator was a more fearsome aircraft than the Fiat Cr.42...if only by a small margin - but judge for yourself 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 7, 2004)

you argue a VERY good point for the Gladiator, but can i just put in a word for the fairey swordfish, whils not a fighter, and not that great, just thaught it was worth a mention for the role it played in the war...............


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## kiwimac (Mar 7, 2004)

The CR42 was a delight to fly and the most manouverable biplane fighter of WW2. That its armament let it down is not an indicator of its usefulness at all. Interestingly long after it had come off day fighter missions it was still being used by both the Regia Aeronautica AND the Luftwaffe in both ground-attack and nightfighter roles.







Indeed the RAF museum has this to say about the CR 42.



> The CR42 was a delightful machine to fly and was the best biplane in service in 1940. Although the days of the biplane fighter were numbered it continued to take part in air operations until the end of 1943 and was built in greater numbers than any other Italian Second World War fighter.
> 
> This immensely strong and very manoeuvrable fighter first saw combat in the brief two week campaign over Southern France. Light losses against the French gave the Italians a mistaken impression that their tactics and aircraft were highly effective.
> 
> ...



Source: http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/fiat-cr42-falco.htm






The CR42 was used by Italian, German, Swedish, Hungarian and Belgian airforces.

Kiwimac


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 7, 2004)

"National pride and political prestige, rather than military necessity, led the Italian Dictator Mussolini to send a force of bombers and fighters to take part in the air battles against Great Britain. Arriving at airfields on the Channel coast in October 1940 they proved something of an embarrassment to the Luftwaffe who had resisted the move for some time. Bad weather and obsolescent equipment meant that the venture was not a success"

I think thats the section you ought to look at  - the Gladiator was never destroyed in such places as africa to such a scale than the biplane fiat cr.42s did during the Battle of Britain

you also stated that its poor weaponry was not a statement of its usefulness at all - i couldn't disagree more strongly - if its weapons are poor, what chance does it have on inflicting much damage on anything? you could've built a plane faster than a spitfire during WW2 but if the pilot had to fire a pistol at the other aircraft i think you could safely call that a crappy fighter plane?   

The Italians had alot of misplaced faith in biplanes because of their sucess during the Spainish civil war 

I don't know the exact reason but the Italians didn't get rid of the Fiat til quite late in the war (their war anyway, they surrendered years before it finished) but it wasn't because it was such a great plane - just arrogance i think...i've read it said that the Italians even diverted funds from superior monplane fighters to build more Cr.42s.... their success rate wasn't that staggering..to be honest its part of the reason they fluffed up the war - their airforce was shite basically.

As for early victories over the french....call me a sceptic but the French were hardly amazingly skilled opponents were they? pretty useless actually - another reason the italians had such a false hope in them 
The Gladiator was purchased by more countires than the Fiat and used on more fronts as i've said before - its clearly a close match but i know the Gladiator comes out on top -my figures clarly show that \/


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## kiwimac (Mar 7, 2004)

There is no doubt that the CR42 was under-armed but it was an excellent fighting-machine.

Kiwimac


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## Crazy (Mar 7, 2004)

Slightly off-topic, but since this is a biplane thread.....

Who intends to buy Knights Over Europe when it comes out? It's supposed to be like Red Baron 3D on steroids 8) I've seen early screenshots




The Fighting Irish are signed up to beta test it, whenever that may be




And to stay somewhat on topic, I like the Cr.42 and the Gladiator pretty much equally, although the Gladiator was a better plane


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## jj1982 (Mar 7, 2004)

Well back to the earlier disscusions about the biplanes....  Perhaps the fact that the itais were hardly in a class of their own when it came to superior flying skills. Now dont get me wrong...i'm not saying that all italians couldn't fly planes, but although i must agree with bronzewhaler that the gladiator is utimalty a better machine....do you think thtat the out come could have been a bit different if the pilots were better trained??? If you for instance had a brit or god forgive me...a yank in a fiat....maybe the better class of pilot would be able to fly the plane better. Just some random thoughts that proabably make no sense to anyone but myself but hey!!!


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 7, 2004)

I agree with anyone who says the skill of the pilot is a factor but it is still the plane that does most of the hard work...Kiwi i don't doubt the Fiat Cr.42 was a damn fine plane and i would definately rate it the second best biplane fighter of all time - but i still beleive the Gladiator was better...a fine margin to be sure, but still better - in my opinion 8) 

Of course being British and a great fan of the plane anyway (A Gladiator squadron was based just down the road from where i lived during the Battle of Britain) I am heavily biased but i'm only going by the bare facts

\/


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 7, 2004)

well, the cr.42 was italian, its automatically better already....  but seriously bronzewhaler put across a vewry good point for the gladiator and he convinced me 8)


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## GermansRGeniuses (Mar 12, 2004)

i dont know much about it, but i like the He-51 because it looks nice, not because its german but other than that i have no details on its performance or armament (i have the info but im too lazy to look through my book)


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## Rell (Mar 12, 2004)

Oh come off it *Chedder* you said yourself you dont know that much about it so your bound to agree with *Bronze* hes the one that has typed the most stuff


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## Samu (Mar 12, 2004)

Oh, yes, the He 51 is a beautiful aircraft





This is the data of the aircraft as appear in http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/he51.html



> Type:
> A-1 Single Seat Fighter
> B-2 Reconnaissance seaplane
> C-1 Land ground attack
> ...



It was the first fighter to be ordered by the newly formed Luftwaffe in 1935.


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 12, 2004)

> Oh come off it Chedder you said yourself you dont know that much about it so your bound to agree with Bronze hes the one that has typed the most stuff



aha, wrong 8) if you look around the site you'll see that i agree with bronzewhaler on most occasions 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 12, 2004)

cos


> hes the one that has typed the most stuff


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 12, 2004)

actually, kiwimac posts the longest 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 13, 2004)

and we post the shortest..............................


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 14, 2004)

yup, do you think that has anything to do with the number of posts we have?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 14, 2004)

yes................


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 21, 2004)

really? cos i dont 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 21, 2004)

ah, i beg to differ...........................


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 22, 2004)

Samu said:


> Oh, yes, the He 51 is a beautiful aircraft
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 22, 2004)

one of the ugliest? more like THE ugliest!


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 22, 2004)

Yeah! THE ugliest...should've put that one on the top of my ugliest planes poll!


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 22, 2004)

yup


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 22, 2004)

Right up there with the Avro Lancaster...


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## jj1982 (Mar 22, 2004)

oops....i sense hostility in the air....come bronze....now your just trying to antagonise the lanc!


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## Crazy (Mar 22, 2004)

Aye, bronze, quit taunting the poor fellow. He's already taken a beating in the B-17/Lanc debate


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## jj1982 (Mar 22, 2004)

dont be cruel.....you know you've a good heart and some sympathy!


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 23, 2004)

Crazy said:


> Aye, bronze, quit taunting the poor fellow. He's already taken a beating in the B-17/Lanc debate



'Aye'?? who the hell says 'Aye'?   

anway i didn't mean anything, i was just teasing...besides whats with you moderators lately? its like being at bloody playschool - quit with the telling offs!


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 23, 2004)

jj1982 said:


> dont be cruel.....you know you've a good heart and some sympathy!




and thats very rich coming from the king of abuse!


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## Samu (Mar 23, 2004)

> are you kidding? i think its one of the uglisest biplanes i've ever seen!



Well, in Spain there are a phrase that says this: "Sobre gustos, no hay nada escrito"; that means something like: "About likes, there aren't nothing write" ...


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## BatGirl (Mar 23, 2004)

almost right, it means 'On tastes, there is nothing no written'

Knew those spanish lessions would come in useful one day


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## jj1982 (Mar 23, 2004)

Well how about this one......puta!


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## GermansRGeniuses (Mar 23, 2004)

that means bitch or whore 8) dont fook with me m8!

Reichsmarschall Batista


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 24, 2004)

Pack it in with the languages guys! this is an aircraft forum not a bloody spanish one! 
8)


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## BatGirl (Mar 24, 2004)

> Well how about this one......puta!



id check your spelling on that if I were you


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## jj1982 (Mar 24, 2004)

mi just say the bloody words.......not spelll them....however i think that you wil find that i have spelt it correctly!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 24, 2004)

bat girl, are you a girl? if you are wolcome, you're the first, SHE'S MINE


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 24, 2004)

BatGirl said:


> > Well how about this one......puta!
> 
> 
> 
> id check your spelling on that if I were you



As I said...his spanish is shite


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 24, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> bat girl, are you a girl? if you are wolcome, you're the first, SHE'S MINE



Ha! if Batgirl is indeed female she sounds a bit sofisticated for the likes of us Lanc...  

How many languages do you speak apart from English and bad english??  

and besides she isn't the first...Rell is a girl


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## BatGirl (Mar 24, 2004)

what happened there, posted the same one twice.

Yes you spanish is correct, puta does mean protitude although i notice thats the second time youve used that word on this forum, dont you know any more? 8)


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 24, 2004)

BatGirl said:


> what happened there, posted the same one twice.
> 
> Yes you spanish is correct, puta does mean protitude although i notice thats the second time youve used that word on this forum, dont you know any more? 8)



    

only swear words!!!!!


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## Rell (Mar 24, 2004)

Hey yes, I am a girl, in fact the first one I believe. Do I get a special award for that?


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## jj1982 (Mar 24, 2004)

thankyou batgirl.....I know a few spanish words, but maily swear words....that i cant spelll


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## BatGirl (Mar 24, 2004)

Name them then jj1982



> Hey yes, I am a girl, in fact the first one I believe. Do I get a special award for that?



So Rell if you get the award, I guess I get Lancaster then


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## jj1982 (Mar 24, 2004)

Well as i am unable to spell them i cant can i????? Is it a female thing???? the inability to read the screen and understand what is being written.....


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## BatGirl (Mar 24, 2004)

Well as i am unable to spell them i cant can i????? Is it a female thing???? the inability to read the screen and understand what is being written.....


> Ino its just a male thing not being able to spell or be understood even by someone as amazingly intelligent as a woman


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 24, 2004)

welcome batgirl, its about time we had a girl on the site to keep us savage beasts in their cage


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 24, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> welcome batgirl, its about time we had a girl on the site to keep us savage beasts in their cage




sorry to shoot you down matey but Rell has been on this site for a while now and shes a girl too


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 24, 2004)

lol, foo sorry  shes doing a good job then - helping put a stop to spam 8)


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 24, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> lol, foo sorry  shes doing a good job then - helping put a stop to spam 8)



Yeah she is - no-one minds a bit of it - but lately theres too much of it - i think its cos the threads stay on too long - people get bored with the subject and they start to prat about - i'm going to e-mail the moderators actually and suggest some measures to try and reduce it...some sort of warning scheme - like a red card scheme - someone gets warned about spam once (like a yellow card) if they do it again they get kicked off the site for a month and then if they want to come back they can but if they do it again its goodbye vienna for good


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 24, 2004)

sounds good to me 8) maybe not a mnth though, a couple of das seems more resonable


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 26, 2004)

Nah, days won't make any difference - you need MONTHS, YEARS FOREVER!! :redhotevil: :evilbat:


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 26, 2004)

> So Rell if you get the award, I guess I get Lancaster then



lanc, looks like youve got a fan....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 28, 2004)

yey, so batgirl, how old are you and where are you from?


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 28, 2004)

OOooh its like blind date! 8) 

I think I can safely say shes a bit too old for you Lanc...nice try though mate


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## jj1982 (Mar 28, 2004)

> Nah, days won't make any difference - you need MONTHS, YEARS FOREVER!!



Uh, Oh...does anyone else feel that perhaps that giving Bronze some sort of authority (Hes not used to it, bless him!) wasnt such a good idea....


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 29, 2004)

jj1982 said:


> > Nah, days won't make any difference - you need MONTHS, YEARS FOREVER!!
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, Oh...does anyone else feel that perhaps that giving Bronze some sort of authority (Hes not used to it, bless him!) wasnt such a good idea....



You jealous troublemaker?


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 29, 2004)

you are corrupt with the power bronze  youre like hitler, you started off on the site quietly, then when you got more known you started being more argumentative. then, you got JJ1982 to come and spam constantly so that rell could make a complaint, thus giving you the opportunity to become a moderator 8) you see, it all fits into place


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 30, 2004)

thats SIR Hitler to YOU 8)


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## kiwimac (Mar 31, 2004)

<AHEM>

IF ANYONE IS FUHRER HERE< TAKE A GUESS WHO THAT MIGHT BE!

FVS Kiwimac

<My last Spam for a wee while, I promise>


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 31, 2004)

Er....Rafe35? 8)


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 31, 2004)

I was reading up about the De Havilland Tiger Moth biplane... 

Widely considered by many to be the most famous and attractive training aircraft ever built.  

It flew for the first time in 1931 and was almost immediately ordered in large numbers mainly for use in the RAF. 
It was designed using the specs of its predessor the Gypsy Moth (a smaller, slower aircraft). By the end of WW2 the Brits had build 7,290 of them and used them throughout the Commenwealth (but mainly in Britain) 
It was used primarily as a Training aircraft during WW2 and provided most of the future aces of the Commenwealth with their first flying experience  
You can still see many Tiger Moths that exist today and are still flown by aviation enthusiasts...the general public can even have pleasure rides in them! 

but I came across an interesting chapter in the aircrafts history which isn't often mentioned  on the website for Hendon air museum (see link) 


If you think i'm making this bizarre story up then check the link at the bottom of this post  

Shortly after the disasterous evac from Dunkirk in 1940 the Brits were willing to listen to alomost ANY anti-invasion idea so they cooked up a few uses for the Tiger Moth including....

The 'paraslasher'; a scythe-like blade fitted to a Tiger Moth and intended to cut parachutist's canopies as they descended to earth. Flight tests proved the idea, but it was not officially adopted.

In August 1940, 350 Tiger Moths were fitted with light bomb racks. These aircraft were to undertake the bombing of enemy troops attempting a landing.

and my personal fav...

The Tiger Moth 'human crop sprayer' used a tank fitted in the front cockpit with powder dispensers located under the wings. The tank would be filled with 'Paris Green', an extremely poisonous insecticide. It was intended that low flying aircraft would dust the German troops as they waded ashore.    

it states at the end of the paragraph that its fortunate that none of these stratagies was actually used....yeah, lucky for the Germans!!! 

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/de-havilland-tiger-moth-ii.htm


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 31, 2004)

cool 8) i watched a programme once where they said that the tiger moth was a WW1 biplane


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 31, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> cool 8) i watched a programme once where they said that the tiger moth was a WW1 biplane



Well i don't know what programme that was but they be wrong!  

Perhaps they got it mixed up with the Gypsy Moth? (i don't even think that was a WW1 plane)


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## R Pope (Mar 31, 2004)

Best bipe? Gregor FDB-1, last Allied biplane design,outclimb, out-turn, outroll a Spit or a Hurricane, closed cockpit, retracting gear. And Canadian! Fifteen years later they built the Arrow! Go figure!


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## Crazy (Mar 31, 2004)

Looks pretty good 8)


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## kiwimac (Apr 1, 2004)

Re the Gregor



> Type: FDB-1
> 
> Country: Canada
> 
> ...



Kiwimac


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 1, 2004)

I have never heard of that particular plane...which makes me a bit sceptical about how good it was...if it was that much cop then why hasn't it been mentioned as one of the best biplanes in history? (a title which so rightly belongs to the Gloster Gladiator) and i have news for you matey...most biplanes could out-turn monoplanes...its what they did after out-turned them which made them so great (and almost useless later in the war  )


and by the way Kiwi - us guys in GBR need speed in Mph not kilometers!! 8)


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 1, 2004)

> a title which so rightly belongs to the Gloster Gladiator



i love the gladiator too...... but i think its the swordfish 

and it sounds stupid, but was there ever a jet biplane?


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## Gemhorse (Apr 1, 2004)

I've got to agree with Whaler's assessments here - The Gladiator was really the plane between biplanes and monoplanes , having a canopy , sensibly armed... The Gregor looks hot , yeah , but I've never heard of it until now, so it wasn't probably produced in any number... The Swordfish was unique to be used as it was in WWII , and anyone who flew in them in combat should've got an automatic gong - One chap got a posthumous VC for the 'Channel Dash' debacle that I know of , and probably the fact they were slow got those torpedos running right and made attacks by enemy fighters tricky - Seems their greatest adversary was enemy flak. - And I do like the Tiger Moth, grew-up with them droning around here, and locally there's a yellow one just like in your picture - There's quite a strong Club of them throughout N.Z. - We also have been restoring Polikarpov's down here , the 1-16 Rata's, and the 1-153 Bis which is a biplane. I don't know a great deal of their history, but the both fought valiantly against the German Invasion of Russia .- P.S.- Good to know there's a lady on the Site - Haven't met any before who were interested in aircraft , except my own one....Cheers !


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## kiwimac (Apr 2, 2004)

Whaler speed in MPH is 262.5 mph (a reasonable turn of speed for a biplane)

As for Jet biplanes

Look here






Source: http://hampage.hu/repules/e_szolnok.html

And from 1910


















> It was a double-wing, one-seat plane equipped with a reactive engine. The main characteristics were:
> 
> Span: 10.30 m
> Length: 12.50 m
> ...




Source: http://www.ctie.monash.edu/hargrave/bristol.html

Fascinating!

Kiwimac


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 2, 2004)

wow, cool!  8) cheers kiwi


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 2, 2004)

Gemhorse said:


> I do like the Tiger Moth, grew-up with them droning around here, and locally there's a yellow one just like in your picture - There's quite a strong Club of them throughout N.Z.



Wow, its great to know there are Tiger Moths world-wide that still fly - they're a lovely little plane and without a doubt one of my fav biplanes 

I hope to have a flight in one soon at Duxofrd airfield here in the UK - that would be an experience i won't forget...being in a tiny plane built during WW2, a thousand feet up and freezing cold!    

No really- i'm looking forward to it \/


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 3, 2004)

lucky sod  8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 3, 2004)

my favourite biplane is the Fairy Swordfish easily..........................


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 4, 2004)

no no, i like the cr.42


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## Gemhorse (Apr 4, 2004)

Come, come, now even the Germans had to take the spats off the wheels of their Ju87's - the Italians didn't realise that it would make 'em faster if they did it to their CR42's. Gladiators Swordfish , gallant biplanes...and the Tiger Moth WAS built by De Havilland ...


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 4, 2004)

They were all excellent biplanes, except the Ju87  (i think the only way to make it a crapper bomber was to make it a biplane! - how many biplane dive-bombers have you ever heard of that were any good? )

The Tigermoth obviously had the capability to do something in a combat role...but what exactl? apart from the strange ideas the Brits had for anti-invasion...


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## Samu (Apr 4, 2004)

A good biplane dive bomber? For example the Henschel Hs 123:



> The Hs 123 first experienced combat in the Spanish Civil war and helped define the role of the close air support aircraft for the Luftwaffe. The type proved to be exceptionally useful during the Polish campaign and even though production had ceased before WWII the Hs 123 soldiered on through 1944. The type proved so useful in it's role that it was deployed to the Balkans in 1941 where it proved readily adaptable to the harsh conditions found in that theatre. Although threatened with imminent replacement, no type was developed that could completely replace this aircraft and the type was used until there were none left.


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## kiwimac (Apr 4, 2004)

HS 123 was a good 'un

Kiwimac


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 4, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> my favourite biplane is the Fairy Swordfish easily..........................



no such thing as a "Fairy Swordfish" mate, unless you mean _*Fairey*_ Swordfish


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 4, 2004)

don't get pickey.............................


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 4, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> don't get pickey.............................



no such word as pickey mate, unless you mean *picky*


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 4, 2004)

that's the american spelling.....................


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 5, 2004)

no lanc, picky is the english spelling 8)


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 5, 2004)

Samu said:


> A good biplane dive bomber? For example the Henschel Hs 123:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## kiwimac (Apr 5, 2004)

The HS 123 was a 'bitza' and fulfilled a number of roles as did the Russian Polikarpov Biplanes. Mostly ground-attack.

Kiwimac


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 6, 2004)

You think the Gemans built the best biplane fighter of the war?

          

please! remember my heart condition! i can't laugh this hard for long before I keel over!


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 6, 2004)

ok, it may have been good, but the gladiator was clearly the best


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## kiwimac (Apr 6, 2004)

The HS 123 was not in the Gladiator's class but, having said that, it could hold its own. Nope it was a ground-attack biplane not a fighter.


kiwimac


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 7, 2004)

kiwimac said:


> The HS 123 was not in the Gladiator's class but, having said that, it could hold its own. Nope it was a ground-attack biplane not a fighter.
> 
> 
> kiwimac



So you agree that when in the 'fighter' role it didn't outclass the Gladiator?


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## kiwimac (Apr 7, 2004)

Yes Bronze I do. But if you look at my posts you'll see I never said otherwise. The HS 123 was a fine *ground attack biplane* that could hold its own with fighters generally.

Kiwimac


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 8, 2004)

> ground attack biplane


 
woudnt they develop lots of drag in a dive?


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## kiwimac (Apr 8, 2004)

Ground attack is not necessarily dive-bombing! 

Kiwimac


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 8, 2004)

kiwimac said:


> Yes Bronze I do. But if you look at my posts you'll see I never said otherwise. The HS 123 was a fine *ground attack biplane* that could hold its own with fighters generally.
> 
> Kiwimac



well you can hardly blame me for making that simple mistake...it IS the best biplane fighter thread after all


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 9, 2004)

a swordfish dont make too great of a fighter either, if you are wondering, read the lancs posts


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 9, 2004)

i can tell you didn't read them, i said it wasn't a fighter, i just said it was worthy of note.......................


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## kiwimac (Apr 9, 2004)

I understand both the Swordfish and Albacore were used a light bombers as wll.

Kiwimac


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 10, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> i can tell you didn't read them, i said it wasn't a fighter, i just said it was worthy of note.......................


 same with kiwi but bronze accuses him... it seems we have a racist to nzers! (j/k)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 10, 2004)

> I understand both the Swordfish and Albacore were used a light bombers as wll.



well, it was the swordfish more than the albacore, they were used as carrier born torpedo bombers, but towards the end of the war they were used on D-Day as well.......................


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 20, 2004)

surprisingly good for such an outdated plane too 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 20, 2004)

well i wouldn't say that, it was just that it had no effective opposition...............


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 1, 2004)

well it was hardly the most modern WW2 plane was it


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 1, 2004)

A note on the bi-plane dive-bomber bit, the very first dive-bombers were bi-planes.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 1, 2004)

i haven't got time to get the book, but i was reading about a jet dive bomer in which the pilot laid in the prone posistion..............


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 1, 2004)

the prone position?


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 1, 2004)

Yeah, it cut down on the G-forces a pilot would experience on pull-out from the dive. Here is a link with some pretty neat CG images of what it would have looked like. The Hs-132

http://www.luft46.com/mmart/mm132.html


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 2, 2004)

cool 8) looks kinda like a He-162 8)


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 2, 2004)

I had heard somewhere that a pilot was supposed to be able to handle a 12G pullout since the G-forces would be going through his chest, front to back, rather than up and down.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 2, 2004)

did you know that it theory short fat women are the best at withstanding G-Forces.......................


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 2, 2004)




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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 2, 2004)

in which case my mum could be the best fighter pilot the world's ever seen.............


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 2, 2004)

i wouldnt mind going in one of those machines they put fighter pilots in to test how they withstand G-Force 8)


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 2, 2004)

I've been in a low-powered centrifuge. It only pulled 3Gs but sustained it for a few minutes. It's a pretty weird feeling.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 3, 2004)

i wouldn't mind giving it a go, but C.C, u realise that as you're taller you, in theory, wouldn't be able to pull more G's than the rest of us..............


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 3, 2004)

ive experienced just over 1G under acceleration 8)


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jun 3, 2004)

I've done maybe 3g on Goliath at Six Flags. The ride has a part near the end which is a loop, but *SIDEWAYS!!!*
It's actually called a Helix. The first time I went on, I started to black out.
But it was fun, and the other two times I went on it, I was fine.


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 3, 2004)

Yeah but that's not a sustained 3Gs. The centrifuge I was in held 3Gs for around a minute. I've been on one roller coaster that pulled a momentary 4Gs.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 4, 2004)

1G isn't that great C.C., but admitidly it's proberly more tham i've been under..................


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 4, 2004)

yes but that 1G under acceleration, in a car, which is pretty good


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 4, 2004)

not if the car's falling off a cliff.....................


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 4, 2004)

it was on level ground though, and it was from a standstill.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 4, 2004)

i wonder if i could do that in a tractor, i'll try it tomorrow..............


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 4, 2004)

If you are sitting in a car in a garage you are experiencing 1G.


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 5, 2004)

im talking horizontal G, not vertical G


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## kiwimac (Jun 5, 2004)

Best I've done is about 1.5 g's

Kiwimac


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 5, 2004)

cool 8) nice siggy


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## Skufr (Jun 5, 2004)

The best WWII biplane fighter was probably either the Gloster Gladiator or the Polikarpov I-153. The latter was far superiour to the CR.42 and also had the edge on the Gladiator with its retractable landing gear and far better armament.


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 5, 2004)

i agree, they were both superb planes. but i would have to go with the gladiator


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 5, 2004)

The performance of both machines was very similar. That's why I was hoping someone might have information on the maneuverability of the two aircraft.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 8, 2004)

as biplanes they would both be very manouverable................


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 8, 2004)

indeed 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 8, 2004)

more cheap spam there, and here.............


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 8, 2004)

yeah, when i get to 3000 posts ill back off a bit


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## plan_D (Jun 9, 2004)

You're only 6 away C.C. The goal is so close you can spam it, in no time.


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 9, 2004)

ive made it now


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 9, 2004)

and i wanted to beat him to it


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 9, 2004)

you even tried begging so you would be the first


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 12, 2004)

but you get in a day what i get in a week, and i don't spam as much as you...............


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 12, 2004)

im not on the site all the time though, and my post rate isnt very quick, onme every 10 mins maybe, im usually talking to helen 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 13, 2004)

> im not on the site all the time though



that's because you post in every topic then no-one replys so you jesty leave...............


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## Stuka-99 (Jun 13, 2004)

What's all that got to do with biplanes????


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## kiwimac (Jun 13, 2004)

Stuka,

You'll get used to 'em. Just ignore 'em and post about biplanes.

Which do you think was the best of WW2?

Kiwimac


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 13, 2004)

sorry mate 8) dont worry about my spam, i get bored 

the best biplane was easily the gladiator 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 13, 2004)

but there was little to compare it too.................


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 13, 2004)

there were actually more biplanes than you think, lanc, a lot of them saw very little service or were pulled out of service very early in the war.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 14, 2004)

yes, beacuse they weren't as good as monoplanes, the RAF for example had many biplanes up untill '38 when most squadrens had hurries............


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 14, 2004)

Alot of the smaller countries in the war were still employing biplanes. And the Brits had the Gladiator, Germany had the Hs 123, Russia had the I-15 family, and I'm not sure but America may have still had a few F3Fs in service when the war started.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 15, 2004)

but they were quickly replaced..............


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 22, 2004)

I've been giving some more thought to this and think that the CR.42 Falco deserves a second look. From what I have seen, it was faster than either the Gladiator or the I-153 and may have been the best biplane fighter of the war. Ah, at last an Italian plane takes a title.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 22, 2004)

i think i'd give the Sm.79 a title.................


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## SKIBC (Jun 27, 2004)

swordfish wasnt a fighter but it was one of the only biplanes that had a role. torpedoing the Bizmark allowing the navy to zero in on it


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 27, 2004)

welcome to the site SKIBC, and you're right in saying that, i believe i've mentioned that before, the general feeling in thsi thread is that the title of best bi-plane fighter was the Glostor Gladiator..............................


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 27, 2004)

I'm not so sure of that anymore. The CR.42 was faster than the Gladiator and I prefer to armament of two 12.7mm weapons over 4 .303s.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 27, 2004)

it would apear then that they're the only two planes in the running....................


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 27, 2004)

Well, the I-153 used by the Soviet's would probably be in the running, but I consider it inferior to either the Gladiator or the CR.42.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 28, 2004)

to be honest my money's with the Gladiator..................


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## Dan (Jun 28, 2004)

i honestly can't say my thoughts but you might consider the british torpedo bomber "swordfish"


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 28, 2004)

Again, does anybody have any direct evidence on the maneuverability of any of these aircraft?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 29, 2004)

> i honestly can't say my thoughts but you might consider the british torpedo bomber "swordfish"



whilst the most sucessfull bi-plane of the war, it wasn't used as a fighter...........


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 29, 2004)

And certainly lacked the performance and armament to become one.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 30, 2004)

well if they did want to convert it for fighter use they would re-arm it..................


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 30, 2004)

Wouldn't have done anything for performance though.


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## koivis (Jul 1, 2004)

In armament, the I-152 was the best, being armed with 4 7,62 mm ShKAS-mgs (firing 1800rpm)  and later 2 20 mm ShVAK-cannons!


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 1, 2004)

But of the three aircraft we are considering as 'contenders' (I-15, Gladiator, CR.42), the I-15 family had the worst performance figures.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 1, 2004)

and i think the gladiator had the most impressive combat record..................


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## Crazy (Jul 1, 2004)

koivis said:


> In armament, the I-152 was the best, being armed with 4 7,62 mm ShKAS-mgs (firing 1800rpm)  and later 2 20 mm ShVAK-cannons!




Looks good too 8) 

From http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/scotts/allies/ussr/i152.htm


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 1, 2004)

It may well have, but that would probably have something to do with the quality of pilots flying it. The RAF was considerably superior to the RA and the VVS (at least the VVS at the time when I-15s were in service).


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