# Favorite Ace



## Thumpalumpacus (Apr 1, 2021)

I was curious about the favorite aces of folks and thought it'd be cool to spark some good discussion about it. I couldn't really find what seemed an appropriate forum for that topic, so I put it here. Obviously the last century spawned thousands of aces, so putting up a formal poll seems to me a little ludicrous.

But I'm just curious on views about this. I have my own few, my avatar being one, for different reasons, and I'll put up more on that as we go along. Whose story, or flying, grabs you? 

Staff, if there's a better sub-forum for this thread, my apologies, and move as you see fit.

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## SaparotRob (Apr 8, 2021)

Colonel Francis Gabreski. Mostly for non-aviation reasons. He had been president of the Long Island Rail Road, my beloved former employer. I worked with his daughter, a former U.S. Navy petty officer and an excellent block operator (my “craft”). She gave me a great poster autographed by the Colonel. Plus I took a couple of glider flights from Gabreski Airport.

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## SaparotRob (Apr 9, 2021)

I just noticed your new avatar. Go Grumman!!

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## SaparotRob (Apr 9, 2021)

I’m more of a Boeing booster but Grumman is the local favorite son.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Apr 9, 2021)

I chose it because of its Texas attitude and colors. It's more interesting to me than my old SAC unit's patch with its Latin proverbin' and all.


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## Thumpalumpacus (Apr 9, 2021)

Also -- I share you admiration for Gabby. Flying aggressively, taking the time to teach the younger pilots, all that. I've got a copy of _Jane's WWII Fighters_ that features interviews with several aces interviewed, and I always liked Gabby's demeanor. Seems like a guy who'd rather sit down and have a beer with you, but could be cutthroat when needed.

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## Guchi (Apr 21, 2022)

Me, I like ‘bubi’ Hartmann.
Just for his boyish charm and not taking himself seriously.

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## soulezoo (Apr 25, 2022)

I guess wrong war, but I always admired Rickenbacker amongst all others.... Soft spot for Robin Olds as well.

But since Bud Anderson still lives close by, I'll choose ol' Bud. Helluva nice guy but I don't like his taste in Bourbon.

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## Jager52 (Apr 26, 2022)

Adolf Galland gets my vote. Respected by all on both sides. A gentleman and good aviator.

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## DarrenW (May 2, 2022)

If I had to choose just one it would be Captain David McCampbell of the US Navy.

Some interesting facts concerning his military career:

1) Leading US Navy ace with 34 victories.

2) Highest scoring American pilot to survive the war.

3) Most successful American pilot during a single mission (9 Japanese fighters on October 24, 1944). Also scored 7 victories on June 19, 1944 during the "Great Marianas Turkey Shoot". This made him the only US pilot to make "ace in a day" twice. For these two actions he would be awarded the Medal Of Honor (MOH) by President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

4) Carrier Air Group 15 Commander during both the Battle of the Philippines Sea and Leyte Gulf. Air Group 15 destroyed more enemy planes (315 airborne and 348 on the ground) and sank more enemy shipping than any other Air Group in the PTO.

5) Scored all of his 34 aerial victories while flying F6F-3/5 aircraft.

6) Served 31 years in the US Navy.

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## Thumpalumpacus (May 2, 2022)

DarrenW said:


> 3) Most successful American pilot during a single mission (9 Japanese fighters on October 24, 1944). Also scored 7 victories on June 19, 1944 during the "Great Marianas Turkey Shoot". This made him the only US pilot to make "ace in a day" twice. For these two actions he would be awarded the Medal Of Honor (MOH) by President Franklin D. Roosevelt.



I doubt it's true, but I've read that on his mission on 24 Oct, he shot down those nine aircraft in the time it took to smoke a cigarette. Most likely apocryphal, but it's cute to think of.


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## Snautzer01 (May 3, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> the time it took to smoke a cigarett


Well....

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## rob23 (May 5, 2022)

Holy crap..... Just one? Impossible. I have many, Albert Ball, Werner Voss, Stanford Tuck, Hans-Joachim Marseilles, James Howard, Marion Carl, Alex Vraciu........

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## Thumpalumpacus (May 5, 2022)

rob23 said:


> Holy crap..... Just one? Impossible. I have many, Albert Ball, Werner Voss, *Stanford Tuck*, Hans-Joachim Marseilles, *James Howard*, Marion Carl, Alex Vraciu........



Being unfamiliar with the emboldened pilots mentioned, I went to look them up. Holy cow, here's one fearless sonofabitch::

_On January 11, 1944, Howard flew his P-51 unaccompanied into some 30 Luftwaffe fighters that were attacking a formation of American B-17 Flying Fortress bombers over Oschersleben, Germany.[3]​[6]​ For more than a half-hour, Howard defended the heavy bombers of the 401st Bomb Group against the swarm of Luftwaffe fighters, repeatedly attacking the enemy and shooting down as many as six.[6]​ Even after Howard's P-51 ran out of ammunition, he continued to dive on enemy airplanes.[6]​ The leader of the bomber formation later reported, "For sheer determination and guts, it was the greatest exhibition I've ever seen. It was a case of one lone American against what seemed to be the entire Luftwaffe. He was all over the wing, across and around it. They can't give that boy a big enough award."[5]​_[/i]









James H. Howard - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





... and:

_Flight Lieutenant Roland Robert Stanford TUCK, D.F.C. (37306).
Since 11 June 1940, this officer has destroyed six enemy aircraft, and probably destroyed or damaged six more. One day in August, 1940, he attacked three Junkers 88's, destroyed two and damaged the third. Later in the month he intercepted two Ju 88's at 15,000 feet, and in a head-on attack, destroyed one. In a similar attack on the second, a cannon shell blew away his oil and glycol tank and a piece of his propeller, but he reached the coast and landed by parachute. In September, 1940, he shot down one Messerschmitt 110 and probably a Messerschmitt 109, and one week later destroyed a Bf 109 over the sea. Flight Lieutenant Tuck has displayed gallant and determined leadership.[14]_









Robert Stanford Tuck - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org






Thanks so much, 
R
 rob23
.

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## rob23 (May 5, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Being unfamiliar with the emboldened pilots mentioned, I went to look them up. Holy cow, here's one fearless sonofabitch::
> 
> _On January 11, 1944, Howard flew his P-51 unaccompanied into some 30 Luftwaffe fighters that were attacking a formation of American B-17 Flying Fortress bombers over Oschersleben, Germany.[3]​[6]​ For more than a half-hour, Howard defended the heavy bombers of the 401st Bomb Group against the swarm of Luftwaffe fighters, repeatedly attacking the enemy and shooting down as many as six.[6]​ Even after Howard's P-51 ran out of ammunition, he continued to dive on enemy airplanes.[6]​ The leader of the bomber formation later reported, "For sheer determination and guts, it was the greatest exhibition I've ever seen. It was a case of one lone American against what seemed to be the entire Luftwaffe. He was all over the wing, across and around it. They can't give that boy a big enough award."[5]​_[/i]
> 
> ...


Hey, no problem, and thanks! Jim Howard is so interesting; he was a naval aviator then went to the AVG, the Flying Tigers and scored against the Japanese. After the AVG broke up he took a commission in the AAF and flew the Mustang and was the one and only European theater fighter pilot to receive the MOH. He retired as a USAF general. Hell of a pilot, interesting guy.

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## Thumpalumpacus (May 5, 2022)

rob23 said:


> Hey, no problem, and thanks! Jim Howard is so interesting; he was a naval aviator then went to the AVG, the Flying Tigers and scored against the Japanese. After the AVG broke up he took a commission in the AAF and flew the Mustang and was the one and only European theater fighter pilot to receive the MOH. He retired as a USAF general. Hell of a pilot, interesting guy.



Another point I found interesting, which I didn't mention above in the interest of brevity, is that he's the only American fighter pilot to make ace in two theaters in WWII, at least according to the Wiki article I linked.

Again, this is why I love this forum -- I learn so much about a topic which obviously interests us all. Good stuff!

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## special ed (May 5, 2022)

In one of the books where he is mentioned, he was asked why he attacked 30+ fighters. His answer was, "I seen my duty and I done it." I learned from some old timers (vets) that was a kind of slang term used for many/various situations.

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## eagledad (May 5, 2022)

Gentlemen

John Landers made ace in the Southwest Pacific with 6 victories with the P-40 and then scored 8.5 victories in the ETO, (4 in P-38's and 4.5 in P-51's I believe) to also be an ace in multiple theaters. 

Source: USAF study 85, page 110

FYI

Eagledad

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## Thumpalumpacus (May 5, 2022)

eagledad said:


> Gentlemen
> 
> John Landers made ace in the Southwest Pacific with 6 victories with the P-40 and then scored 8.5 victories in the ETO, (4 in P-38's and 4.5 in P-51's I believe) to also be an ace in multiple theaters.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the correction and additional info.

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## eagledad (May 5, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Thanks for the correction and additional info.


Two of my favorite aces are James Morris and Lawrence "Scrappy" Blumer. Although Blumer only had 6 total victories and flew with the 9th AF, 367th FG. 5 FW-190's fell to his guns in a low-level fight on Aug 25, 1944. James Morris, of the 20th FG, 8th AF, only scored 7.33 victories. 6.33 of his total came in the period of February 1944, including 4 on the 8th, 2 FW-190's and 2 Me-109's. Both men flew P-38J's, both scored their multiple victories at altitudes below 15,000 feet.

Morris's combat reports can be found here:

http://www.20thfightergroup.com/uploads/2/5/6/1/25611749/morris_encounter_reports.pdf 

Blumer's report for 8/25/44 is attached.

PS Morris was lost (POW) in July 44 when is P-38 was knocked down by a tail gunner of a Me-410.

I picked these aces because IMHO, they showed what a well flown P-38 could do (with a little luck) in a theater where it was considered by some as a failure. 

Eagledad

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## Thumpalumpacus (May 5, 2022)

Ace in a day against five -190s in a P-38! That's scrappy.


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## buffnut453 (May 5, 2022)

One of my favourite aces is Alfred Wattle Benjamin Clare who first saw combat at the ripe old age of 31 in December 1941. 

Alf, known to all and sundry as "Sinbad", was a pre-war omnibus driver in Maitland, New South Wales. He enlisted in the RAAF and, straight out of training, was posted to 453 Sqn in Singapore to fly Buffalos. He got 5 kills flying against the Japanese over Malaya and Singapore from 8 Dec 1941 to 15 Feb 1942. He was evacuated back to Australia, was commissioned, and later flew Boomerangs on operations in New Guinea. 

I have a letter from Bill Collyer, another 453 Sqn Buffalo pilot, who mentioned Alf's achievement becoming an ace on the Buffalo. He said "It was a mighty effort, but then Alf was a mighty bloke." Surely there can be no greater compliment from one Aussie to another!

Here are a couple of my favourite photos of Alf, in his Boomerang "Sinbad II":













And here's Alf after commissioning (he's a Flt Lt in the pic) later in the war:

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## ARTESH (May 20, 2022)

A very hard, but interesting question!!!

Would like to know what other members think of this topic!

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## Thumpalumpacus (May 20, 2022)

ARTESH said:


> A very hard, but interesting question!!!
> 
> Would like to know what other members think of this topic!



Amen! There's so many here who know so much about these guys that I'd love to hear. I'd also love to hear 

 drgondog
tell us more about his father -- and any other members who have fighter pilots in the family, even if they're not aces.

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## drgondog (May 20, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Amen! There's so many here who know so much about these guys that I'd love to hear. I'd also love to hear
> 
> drgondog
> tell us more about his father -- and any other members who have fighter pilots in the family, even if they're not aces.


Ahh my father. Oldest of four boys, worked at rail yard in home town Greeneville TX school to help pay bills during Depression, worked early mornings before school during football season. Started as QB as a Freshman, was All-State Texas QB three times (first and only 3 time All State in Texas, including Davy O'Brien.). Won one State HS championship, Runner up next year losing 7-6 playing with separated shoulder and other team knew he couldn't pass.

Went to Vanderbilt, was Colliers Honorable Mention ALL American QB, Joined AAF after graduation. Aviation Cadet July through November 1940. Graduated in Class 41-A. Retained as Instructor and served Durance Vile in ATC until he escaped into B-26 assignment, Completed Advanced Training in B-26 and escaped again into Fighters, claiming too short to reach rudder pedals. Completed ATS in P-40K at Sarasota in April, 1944. Shipped to ETO as replacement (Cpt) and grabbed out of replacement pool by Ace and 354FS CO LtC Claiborne Kinnard at 355th FG. Reported to 355th on June 1. Flew first mission at 0230 June 6, shot his first airplane down (Ju 87) late that afternoon. Began combat ops as #4, then few Kinnard's wing, then became flight leader after June 20th when he got two 109s 'plus' a thrird when he hit another diving on him in a head on pass off 30 degree deflection... and it went straight in. He withdrew his claim when his flight leader claimed that the same 109 chasing him lost control and dove into the ground. He received his first DFC by shooting them off the tails of two of his flight in trouble. He became 354FS Ops Officer when Kinnard moved to 355HQ as Deputy Gp CO. He became 354FS CO on July 28 - eight weeks after first day of Combat. He became Ace one week later. Was shot down by flak and rescued by #3 Deacon Priest in first ETO piggy back rescue on August 18, 1944. Promoted to Major the next week. Shot down two more 109s on September 11 plus a damaged. Led the Fighter Escort for last Shuttle Mission September 18th to Warsaw Poland and then Kiev, then Foggia and back to Steeple Morden on the 22nd. Promoted to Deputy Group CO and LtC in October. Finished his first Tour with a belly landing of a rail flak crapped out Mustang with over 200 holes in it.

Second Tour not as exciting, but led the 354th FS on its highest one day bag of 39 Destroyed at Husum on April 13 and got 4-2 on the ground to close out WWII with 7 air, 4 ground - Silver Star, 4 DFC, 13 AM, Croix De Guerre and Polish Medal of Valor. Post VE Day Group CO of 355th at Gablingen GY.

Over the years my favorite fighter pilots (aces) were my father, Olds, Kinnard, Hovde, Hill, Priest and Ralph Parr. I have had several encounters with Rall, Galland and Krupinski - one with Hartman. I was impressed with all, but Very impressed with Rall.

I never gave the remotest thought to playing QB in HS or college - but he never put any pressure on me to play anything so I was content with being pretty good running back and corner. I did eventually clean his clock at golf and wing/competitive shooting, although he was a pretty good shot and golfer. I miss him.

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## Thumpalumpacus (May 20, 2022)

A good cornerback is worth his weight in gold.

Your dad has one hell of a story -- thanks for sharing it.

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## Timppa (Sep 10, 2022)

Kyösti (Kössi) Karhila








Kyösti Karhila - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org

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## GrauGeist (Sep 10, 2022)

There's quite a few Aces I like, but a couple stand out.

One of which, is Bill Overstreet, who was quite an accomplished pilot (and character) and he had whitewall tires and red wheels on his P-51, too!














Interview with Captain William B. "Bill" Overstreet, 363rd FS - Bud Anderson: To Fly and Fight


Training; Hamilton Field; Assigned to 357th FG I was born in Clifton Forge, Virginia, on April 10, 1921. On December 7, 1941, I was working as a statistical engineer for...




toflyandfight.com





Another, would be Gerhard Thyben, an Fw190 pilot, who on the last day of the war, shot down a Soviet fighter as he was flying to the west to surrender - with his crew chief in the baggage compartment!

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## drgondog (Sep 10, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> There's quite a few Aces I like, but a couple stand out.
> 
> One of which, is Bill Overstreet, who was quite an accomplished pilot (and character) and he had whitewall tires and red wheels on his P-51, too!
> 
> ...


Hi Dave - Bill Overstreet was credited with 2.25 air and 2 ground. He caught quite a bit of trash from other 357 pilots for his claim of chasing and destroying 109 under the Eiffel Tower as the 357FG (or him) was nowhere near Paris that day of his claim.


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## GrauGeist (Sep 10, 2022)

drgondog said:


> Hi Dave - Bill Overstreet was credited with 2.25 air and 2 ground. He caught quite a bit of trash from other 357 pilots for his claim of chasing and destroying 109 under the Eiffel Tower as the 357FG (or him) was nowhere near Paris that day of his claim.


I know the Eiffel Tower story was questionable, but his exploits, including a near-death experience in a P-39 is quite a read.

And you gotta love those whitewall tires!

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## drgondog (Sep 10, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Another point I found interesting, which I didn't mention above in the interest of brevity, is that he's the only American fighter pilot to make ace in two theaters in WWII, at least according to the Wiki article I linked.
> 
> Again, this is why I love this forum -- I learn so much about a topic which obviously interests us all. Good stuff!


Howard was Paid for 1.33 air and 4 ground AVG, then had six air with 354h FG in ETO.

Off the top John Landers had 6 in P-40 SWP, 4 in P-38 and 4.5 in P-51D in ETO.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Sep 10, 2022)

drgondog said:


> Howard was Paid for 1.33 air and 4 ground AVG, then had six air with 354h FG in ETO.
> 
> Off the top John Landers had 6 in P-40 SWP, 4 in P-38 and 4.5 in P-51D in ETO.



I always appreciate corrections, especially when the sources are so good.


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## drgondog (Sep 10, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> I always appreciate corrections, especially when the sources are so good.


Thump - not correcting You, only Wiki.

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## GrauGeist (Sep 10, 2022)

How about Lt. Curdes?

Didn't make ace in both theaters, but had an interesting talley...

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## Mainly28s (Sep 10, 2022)

I'd have to go with Hans-Joachim Marseille. 158 kills, all but 7 against the Western Allies in North Africa, including 17 in three sorties. Equally honoured and respected by everyone, and very much a non-Nazi to boot.


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## Admiral Beez (Sep 14, 2022)

Canada's top ace of the war, Richard Audet. Not too many aces were KIA by trains.


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