# Graf Zeppelin may have been found



## Smokey (Jul 26, 2006)

SimHQ Forums: OT: wreck of Graf Zeppelin located?

Two weeks ago, on the 12th of July 2006, a ship belonging to Petrobaltic (a Polish oil company) found a 265 m. long wreck close to the port of Łeba which may be the Graf Zeppelin



> As the end of World War II neared, the roughly completed carrier was scuttled in shallow water at Stettin (now Szczecin) on 25 April 1945, just before the Red Army captured the city. After Germany's surrender, though, its history and fate is unclear. According to the terms of the Allied Tripartite Commission, a "Category C" ship (damaged or scuttled) should have been destroyed or sunk in deep water by 15 August 1946. Instead, the Russians decided to repair the damaged ship. It was refloated in March, 1946. The last known photo of the carrier shows it leaving Swinemuende (now Swinoujscie on 7 April 1947 (see picture). The photo appears to show the carrier deck loaded with various containers, boxes and construction elements, hence the supposition that it was probably used to carry looted factory equipment from Poland and Germany to the Soviet Union.
> 
> For many years no other information about the ship's fate was available. There was some speculation that it was very unlikely that the hull made it to Leningrad, as it was argued that the arrival of such a large and unusual vessel would have been noticed by Western intelligence services. This assumption seemed to imply that the hull was lost at sea during transfer between Swinemuende and Leningrad. One account concluded that it struck a mine north of Rügen on 15 August 1947, but Rügen, west of Swinemuende, is not on the sailing route to Leningrad. Further north, in the Gulf of Finland, a heavily-mined area difficult for Western observers to monitor, seemed more likely.
> 
> After the opening of the Soviet archives, new light was shed on the mystery. It appears that the carrier was towed to Leningrad. There, after unloading, it was designated as "PO-101" (Floating Base Number 101). The Russians hoped that the carrier could be repaired in Leningrad's shipyards (those in Szczecin were destroyed). When this proved impractical, the ship was towed out to sea, back to the Swinemuende area. There, on 16 August 1947, it was used as a practice target for Soviet ships and aircraft. Allegedly, the Soviets installed aerial bombs on the flight deck, in hangars and even inside the funnels (to simulate a load of combat munitions), and then dropped bombs from aircraft, fired shells, and shot torpedoes into it. This assault would both comply with the Tripartite mandate (albeit late) and provide the Soviets with experience in sinking an aircraft carrier. By this point, the Cold War had well begun, and the Soviets were well aware of the large numbers and central importance of aircraft carriers in the US Navy, which in the event of an actual war between the Soviet Union and America would be targets of high strategic importance. Hence, experience in sinking carriers by aircraft was much more valuable in 1947 than before 1945. After being hit by 24 bombs and projectiles, the ship did not sink and had to be finished off by torpedoes. The exact position of the wreck was unknown for decades. On 12 July 2006 a ship belonging to Petrobaltic (a Polish oil company) found a 265 m. long wreck close to the port of Łeba which probably is the Graf Zeppelin. [1]



From

German aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MaritimeQuest - Graf Zeppelin


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 27, 2006)

Awesome that would be great if they found it!


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## Smokey (Jul 27, 2006)

A guy claims that



> Btw, the Navy confirmed - it is the wreck of Graf Zeppelin



SimHQ Forums: OT: wreck of Graf Zeppelin located?


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## v2 (Jul 27, 2006)

Graf Zeppelin in the sonar pics...


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## Hunter368 (Jul 27, 2006)

Very cool


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## Gnomey (Jul 27, 2006)

Yep, the sonar looks about right as well so it could well be her I guess we will find out soon enough.


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## v2 (Jul 28, 2006)

Graf Zeppelin- model


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## mosquitoman (Jul 28, 2006)

Nice! what scale is it?


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## loomaluftwaffe (Jul 28, 2006)

nice, it is good to see 109s and Stukas flying off the carriers for a change


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## Henk (Jul 30, 2006)

Cool I would love some pictures of the wreck.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 30, 2006)

Yeah I hope they post some of the wreck soon.

It would be really neat if they would raise it and turn it into a museum over here in Germany.


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## Henk (Jul 31, 2006)

Yes that would be great.


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## HealzDevo (Oct 30, 2006)

I think give it a version of the Horton 229 flying off the decks as a naval fighter and we could see an interesting result. Regardless it is fascinating. There is a little bit of a question- if the wreck is WW2 and not Graf Zeppelin then who or what is it? It certainly does seem the right size, and shape. From memory Graf Zeppelin was a battleship being converted into an aircraft carrier. Therefore we can't actually be totally sure how she would have performed in any weather.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 31, 2006)

It has been confirmed as the wreck of the GZ. I cant wait till someone goes down there though and takes some pics of it. She was a beautiful ship and I would love too see what she looks like now.


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## Henk (Oct 31, 2006)

Great news, can also not wait to see some pics of the wreck.


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## R-2800 (Nov 1, 2006)

wow really cool that they have found her


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## Henk (Nov 2, 2006)

Now they must take some pics of her and it would be complete.


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## HealzDevo (Nov 5, 2006)

It would also be interesting to know how much of her was ever completed. I wonder just how much of the equipment necessary for an aircraft carrier she had when she sank? Also what was her hull like? The records I think are educated guesses.


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## Henk (Nov 6, 2006)

She was almost completed and had her engines fitted but still needed a lot of stuff to make her a fully operational aircraft carrier. The Russians maybe took what they wanted from her so we will never know in what state the was in at the time they sank her.


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## HealzDevo (Dec 12, 2006)

Yes, sadly, we never will know just how close WW2 Germany had come to having a functional aircraft carrier...


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## Hunter368 (Dec 12, 2006)

HealzDevo said:


> Yes, sadly, we never will know just how close WW2 Germany had come to having a functional aircraft carrier...




Does it matter she would of been bombed / torpedoed into a million pieces.


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## HealzDevo (Dec 15, 2006)

I agree she would have been a big target but still in a flotilla she could have been useful having fighters and also the destroyer and cruiser screen able to throw up a lot of flack to make things difficult for those that were going to bomb her. Also to torpedo something you first have to find it, and estimate speed, range etc. Some sort of dazzle paint would make it very difficult to torpedo...


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## ChrisMAg2 (Dec 15, 2006)

HealzDevo said:


> I agree she would have been a big target but still in a flotilla she could have been useful having fighters and also the destroyer and cruiser screen able to throw up a lot of flack to make things difficult for those that were going to bomb her. Also to torpedo something you first have to find it, and estimate speed, range etc. Some sort of dazzle paint would make it very difficult to torpedo...


The RAF always knew where GZ was (atleast from 1943 on). It was constantely monitored, only never bombed, as GZ never was a real threat. Intelligence always stated GZ "non-operational".
And nothing of that size can be consealed from aerial spotting just by applying what ever kind of a paintjob. But it can be made unobvious, if well integrated in the surrounding. There are examples in the PTO for that. The Germans were aware of this and therefore only made little attempts to camo GZ. They relied strongly on the strong AA-armament, which was installed. But that was never a danger for a i.e. PR Mosquito.
Also -as it was always mainly inside ports- it was always secured wtith anti-torpedo nettings. Torpedos were never an option anyway. If ever GZ would have become operational, the RAF would propabely gone for "Tallboys" like on "Tirpitz".


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## Henk (Dec 16, 2006)

Well I think if she were completed before the war she cold have done something, but as we all know the Kriegsmarine were not ready for the war when it started. It did not have enough to take on the RN. I am just waiting for a expedition on the GZ and the pictures taken there will show us the state she is in and give us some idea of how far she was from completion.


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## ChrisMAg2 (Dec 16, 2006)

Henk said:


> ...I am just waiting for a expedition on the GZ and the pictures taken there will show us the state she is in and give us some idea of how far she was from completion.


Very doubtful! As said earlier, she was stripped of almost everything -that could be used elswhere- before she was sunk! Also there is quite some damage from the bombing and shelling...


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## Henk (Dec 16, 2006)

Yes, but I do not mean her equipment, her structure, like the bridge area and her deck.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 16, 2006)

Henk said:


> Well I think if she were completed before the war she cold have done something



Not really, she would have been hunted like the Graf Spee and the Bismark.


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## HealzDevo (Dec 16, 2006)

I wasn't saying the paint-job would have concealed the Graf Zeppelin, I was suggesting that such a scheme would have made it harder to successfully torpedo or bomb by providing a false image of which way the ship was going, once it became operational... So far as I know the system was successful in WW1 and WW2, in making torpedo attacks difficult. Note I am not saying impossible... This is not entirely a camo job, this is more about making it difficult to attack when under way...


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## Henk (Dec 16, 2006)

Well Adler if the Kriegsmarine were ready for the war I think it could have taken the Atlantic from the RN, but the US could have put a stop to that.........


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## Smokey (Dec 16, 2006)

Apparently Doenitz asked Hitler to build 300 U boats which he calculated could starve the UK into surrender, but Hitler refused and instead built U boats and battleships


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## Henk (Dec 16, 2006)

Well the German Navy were far from raedy for the war. Most of the U-boats were coastel boats and the heavy guns the navy had were way to less to have a impact or make any of a impact on the RN, but if the BoB were a success it would have been lights out for the UK.


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## HealzDevo (Dec 16, 2006)

Yes, exactly, Hitler would have needed to extinguish the UK as the UK was sending in agents and saboteurs to destroy railways and cause chaos and thus the Resistance would have been more easily broken with the UK in Germany's grasp. It would also have dented morale for the Resistance as there would be a lot of difficulty in getting supplies to the Resistance as the US which is assumed to be the last of the major Allies is too far away to be effective. It also makes it that much harder for the US to mount an invasion of Occupied Europe as there is no convenient friendly base from which to launch troops. Thus they would have to come all the way from the US which is a long way to launch an invasion into a place where the weather can be very uncertain... Australia is too far away as well and probably spending the bulk of its time and money on fighting off Japan... Also I don't think the US can sustain two major wars at once, as it was supported the whole way through by the Allies. There are stories that I have heard that say that the Australians would break through on their side, and then they would say that they better go and help the Americans and send some troops to help them break through. Therefore with Britain crushed, it could be supposed that Hitler would have gained time to work out how to invade America should his heart desire it. Don't forget that an Allied invasion with the US and what troops Australia could spare would be operating at long range, thus it would be a logistical nightmare keeping the invasion supplied adequately at those ranges as the U-Boats would be strangling the supply routes to Europe in places such as near Britain and France and all the way along the European Coast...


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## Henk (Dec 17, 2006)

Think if taht would have happend I think the US will fly in and ship in there troops into Africa to be able to take it from the Germans and thus invade from the bottom, but the RN would have destroyed there navy and leave the Germans with nothing.


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## kiwimac (Dec 17, 2006)

Hopefully they'll raise her and perhaps restore her for a museum piece.

kiwimac


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 17, 2006)

> I agree she would have been a big target but still in a flotilla she could have been useful having fighters and also the destroyer and cruiser screen able to throw up a lot of flack to make things difficult for those that were going to bomb her. Also to torpedo something you first have to find it, and estimate speed, range etc. Some sort of dazzle paint would make it very difficult to torpedo...



she would be no harder a target than any battleship, yes the fighters would give extra cover but our carriers far outnumbered this one, even if she made it to the atlantic which is difficult enough we would've hunted her down like we did the Bismarck, you don't get much past the world's greatest naval nation, especially not the new boys.........


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## Henk (Dec 17, 2006)

True.


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## HealzDevo (Dec 17, 2006)

Perhaps. It is a debatable point what would have happened since it never became operational...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 18, 2006)

Henk said:


> Well Adler if the Kriegsmarine were ready for the war I think it could have taken the Atlantic from the RN, but the US could have put a stop to that.........



The Graf Zeppelin? How the hell was the Graf Zeppelin going to take the Atlantic away from the RN? One aircraft carrier and a few Battleships against the Royal Navy?

Seriously...


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## johnbr (Dec 18, 2006)

For a whale they where working on her sister but they cut her up when she was about 70 present done.


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## Henk (Dec 19, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The Graf Zeppelin? How the hell was the Graf Zeppelin going to take the Atlantic away from the RN? One aircraft carrier and a few Battleships against the Royal Navy?
> 
> Seriously...



No mate I meant if the whole Kriegsmarine were ready for a war against the RN they could have taken the Atlantic, not only the Graf Zeppelin.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 19, 2006)

they couldn't, at the start of the war what was the whole Kriegsmarine? in terms of capital ships? and how do you get the KM out into the atlantic? massive ship movements even over a period of several months don't go un-noticed.........


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## Henk (Dec 19, 2006)

Lanc, please read again. I said a what if. If Germany prepaired her navy better before declairing war like expanding the navy more and have a navy that will be able to take on the RN THEN and only THEN they could have given the RN a beating.


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## Hop (Dec 20, 2006)

That assumes the British watch the Germans build a dozen or more battleships, hundreds of cruisers and destroyers, and a few carriers, and do nothing. No expansion of the Royal Navy.

In the real world, if the Germans had begun expanding their navy dramatically, the British would have done the same, and there would only be 1 winner in that arms race. The British had far more shipyard capacity and were starting from a much larger base.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 20, 2006)

Sorry Henk but Lanc and Hop are right on this. There cant even really be a what if scenerio because there was no way it was going to happen unless the Brits were blind and that was not going to happen.


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## Henk (Dec 24, 2006)

Yes, ok I see what you mean.


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## HealzDevo (Dec 28, 2006)

Actually, sorry but they were blind, DerAdlerIstGelandet. One word for you- Chamberlain- If was still in power, Germany could have expanded all it wanted, as Chamberlain would just call for calm and hold up worthless peace accords with Germany. At least from a British perspective. Also you have to remember that historically nothing was really done until Germany invaded Poland, which ruined Chamberlain and gave us Winston Churchill who had always been suspicious of Germany's motives.


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## Hop (Dec 28, 2006)

> One word for you- Chamberlain- If was still in power, Germany could have expanded all it wanted, as Chamberlain would just call for calm and hold up worthless peace accords with Germany.



Chamberlain actually increased British military spending hugely to counter the German military build up. He migh have genuinely believed he had secured peace, but he certainly didn't stop preparing for war.

British military expenditure, millions of pounds:

1936 - 186
1937 - 262
1938 - 400



> Also you have to remember that historically nothing was really done until Germany invaded Poland, which ruined Chamberlain and gave us Winston Churchill who had always been suspicious of Germany's motives.



Chamberlain didn't take concrete steps against Germany until after Hitler annexed the rump of Czechoslovakia. As he said, there was some justification for Germany's moves up to that point (Hitler had only absorbed territory that was ethnically German, and had had popular support for doing so). 

When Germany annexed the non-German parts of Czechoslovakia, in violation of the Munich agreement, Chamberlain made overtures to Poland to guarantee the Polish border against Germany. That was effectively drawing a line in the sand against further German expansion.

Don't forget it was Chamberlain who offered guarantees to Poland, and Chamberlain who declared war in support of those guarantees.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 28, 2006)

I seriously doubt Chamberlain would have just let Germany build her Navy to superior numbers than the British Navy without doing anything at all.
The Brits had far more capacity to build ships than the Germans did. Chamberlain would have increased ship building and the Germany Navy still would not have had a chance. Therefore no he was not blind.


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## HealzDevo (Dec 29, 2006)

Ok, I had just always thought that Chamberlain had done nothing. Still he wasn't exactly all that assertive at any time really towards Germany, I think. By the time he did something, Poland, it was already too late...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 30, 2006)

Go to the Manifest Destiny thread HealzDevo and you will see that they could not do anything before Poland...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 30, 2006)

just remember one of his reasons for appeasing Hitler was to buy us time to build up our armed forces! he wasn't stupid he knew what we needed and eventually he declared war, he was no chicken either!

and RE the navy, regardless of who was in power, the RN was vital to Britain, we still had a huge empire to protect and it was still the navy's job to protect it, the navy for Germany was something of a novelty as their main force rested in their army, for us the Navy was the strongest of all our forces because it had to be, just as before WWI we would never let Germany get ahead of us, we knew that if we did we were done for, it was our naval supremacy that starved Germany in WWI and it was our Navy that was vital for protecting supplies from America at the start of WWII, it's something that non-Brits struggle to comprihend at times i think but in this time period, regardless of political situation, we could NEVER let annother European power becomne stronger than us on the seas, we couldn't afford to..........


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