# The Battle of Romania



## Konigstiger205 (Aug 20, 2007)

During the summer of 1944 my country found itself with the Red Army right to our eastern border....there was little we could have done...our army was weakened by already 2 years of war and the Battle of Stalingrad really took its toll.
On august 23 1944 the government with the help of the king Michael I decided to took the power from Ion Antonescu and to declare war on Germany.It was the only choice to reduce the damage to our country by the soviets.
Despite the fact that we were allied with the Red Army, soviet troops continued to rape and pillage everything they could.The raping didn't stop even as they reach our capital city and women were taken and raped in the street as they marched trough the city.
Although our choice made on 23 august apparently shorted the war with a few months our contribution isn't that much remembered and the only reason we entered the war alongside Germany was to liberate parts of our country from the soviets. 
The end of the war brought the beginning of a dark period for my country which resulted with more than 50 years of communist regime. 
If you want more info check the next link Battle of Romania (1944) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## timshatz (Aug 20, 2007)

Romania was in a no win situation from the time Hitler/Stalin came to power. One or the other was going to come after them, both being expansionist.

Changing sides was probably making the best out of a terrible situation.


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## Konigstiger205 (Aug 20, 2007)

Unfortunately for our sorry asses that is true...our country always found itself in the middle of a conflict and alway in the path of a superpower.....from the romans until the russians.One may think that after almost 2000 years of conflicts my nation has hardened but its the other way around and these days Romania's army is a shadow of what it was once.The government even thinks of dissolving the army....sad but true...


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## Lucky13 (Aug 23, 2007)

Kinda wish that Romania will have 2000 years of peace Konig..... 
I know what you mean, we get less and less of the Army, Air Force
and navy around here in this country too.


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## Konigstiger205 (Aug 23, 2007)

Everyone wants peace but in these days no army is like throwing yourself to the lions....


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## Lucky13 (Aug 23, 2007)

Exactly Konig. You just sit and wait for someone to jump you when you least expect it.....


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## timshatz (Aug 23, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> Exactly Konig. You just sit and wait for someone to jump you when you least expect it.....



Not much you can do even if you do expect it. No military means you are only a target, unless you have a heavy duty friend next door.


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## Konigstiger205 (Sep 1, 2007)

My country was attacked by every country near us during more than 2000 years of existence but like I said...my country is lead by idiots...


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## Udet (Sep 3, 2007)

Konig, buna...

I agree with you the position of Romania during WW2 was not pleasant at all...huge oil reserves which attracted the interest of Hitler, and the big soviet bear sharing the border and also filing its own territorial claims.

As someone told me before, the most loyal ally the Germans had were the Hungarias who for some reason did not switch sides as the war progressed, but it is understandable when one knows of the position other Axis nations found themselves at a certain point of the war.

Cand, cand...si c*m e la viata pe acolo prin Romania din punct de devere fericire si economic? Din ce oras esti tu? Romania frumoasa!


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 4, 2007)

Pretty callous and even cruel of the Soviet officers to not try and control their soldiers violence in a Allied country like Romania.


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## Konigstiger205 (Sep 4, 2007)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> Pretty callous and even cruel of the Soviet officers to not try and control their soldiers violence in a Allied country like Romania.



Well the soviet soldiers never knew control ever since entered Europe and no country escaped their violence and to be honest there were no problems when we had the germans here....sure the soviets had reasons to hate us but we were dragged in that war...we had no other choice and the fact that we were on the allied side was recognized by the U.S.A. and Britain....


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 4, 2007)

Nicer Germans. Yup. 

How many men Romania did have even fighting the Soviets? I guess the Axis occupied them so I imagine it was mostly Germans in the field.


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## Konigstiger205 (Sep 4, 2007)

The Romanian contribution of troops was enormous. The total number of troops involved in the Romanian Third Army and the Romanian Fourth Army was second only to Nazi Germany itself. The number of Romanian troops sent to fight in Russia exceeded that of all of Germany's other allies combined. A Country Study by the U.S. Federal Research Division of the Library of Congress attributes this to "morbid competition with Hungary to curry Hitler's favor ... [in hope of]... regaining northern Transylvania."[1]

App 130.000 soldiers were taken POW's by the Red Army after 23 august 1944 after Romania was officially at war with Germany.
Before 23 august 1944:

Killed in action 
Total 
Army 70.406 
Air Force 972 
Navy 207 
Grand total 71.585 

Missing in action 
Total 
Army 307.476 
Air Force 838 
Navy 1.219 
Grand total 309.533 

The numbers speak for themselves...


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 8, 2007)

Romania really suffered for little benefit. Too bad.


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## Konigstiger205 (Sep 9, 2007)

Yeah and the land we fought for declared its independence after 1991....of course we did get Transilvania back from the Hungarians...


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## Trautloft (Nov 2, 2007)

Udet:
'As someone told me before, the most loyal ally the Germans had were the Hungarias who for some reason did not switch sides as the war progressed, but it is understandable when one knows of the position other Axis nations found themselves at a certain point of the war.'

i have to correct this,whoever told it to you.
Hungary,since centuries,suffered just like Romania,every nation tried to crush it or integrate it. the invasion of tatars,turks, and then the Habsburg regime, the k.u.k. monarchy days where it reached a kind of independence.
History weren't generous to my folk, and after ww1 the versailles treaty, did the most cruel amputation ,taking 2/3 of territory and half of the occupants, tossing millions of hungarians in minority. you can read it on news nowadays,the slovak's with their Benes-decrete law..i don't want to turn offtopic,i just hoped more from the European Union,defending the rights to anyone equally.
some facts you might not know: as i said,i disagree completely if i hear 'hungary was the most loyal ally'. my reasons:
Hungary was against the war. similar to Romania,there was no other choice left as trying to avoid hitler's anger and the faith of finland,or the baltic states,agressed by stalin.Romania had Antonescu,who was like a lil clone of hitler. a war criminal indeed. Hungary's leader,Horthy,was a ww1 hero, a great naval captain,respected by the allies and the axis in ww1.he never did,nor supported any war crimes, i know many historians,mostly soviet,or exiled wannabe-hungarians who hate their country somehow use every occasion to make the 44yrs of terrible communism after 45 look better.i dont care.fact is, hungary refused to attack poland, and hungary didn't even let the germans through hungary to marsh up-slovakia did instead- . Hungary stood neutral, but hitler put great pressure on Horthy. he wanted hungary to take part on the attack on yugoslavia.the prime minister,Teleki, commited even suicide to demonstrate .they all knew we have to choose between the complete destruction of hungary , or allie with hitler and try to keep out. hungary finally joined the attack with 1 army,but didnt took part in the fightings, they occupied former territories where almost 100% of the people been native hungarians to defend them from eventual atrocities from the yugoslavs.they did it later,tito's partisans killed 30000 women and children with sadistic brutality in 44-45,just like the soviets did in hungary itself.
hitler pressed hungary to take part in barbarossa aswell, the 2.hungarian army been completely destroyed at the Don in 42, as the nearby battalions of romanians and italian immadiately surrounded without fighting,letting the red juggernaut unleash its power concentrated. with german units they made a 'dead marsh' back ,for 200km's in minus 40degrees.200000 died or been captured,only a few returned from siberia.
hitler never trusted horthy,hungary attempted many times to contact the allies for a seperate peace, one of the sources been the Pope,but the Abwehr cracked the vatikan's encryption. an ignorant answer of the western allies been 'they might ask the soviets'. hungary couldnt quit the war or turn the sides like finland ,bulgaria,italy or romania did,for a simple reason.hitler occupied hungary,kidnapped horthy's son (the famous Skorzeny was the leader of Operation Eisenfaust) so he was blackmailed to retreat, and the crazy Szálasi came to might,leader of the nazi party in hungary. these murders were just like the insatzgruppen.the deportation of the jews,who found shelter in hungary until 44,started. hungary didnt took part in the holocaust until its occupation,whoever said it. as a proove of all i said, Horthy been obviously arrested from u.s soldiers after the war,but he been released in 45, 'not guilty',and spent his last years in potrugal in exile.there been numerous anti-jewish laws,but deportation and killing happened only during the puppet-regime of Szójay and later szálasi. as long horthy posessed his might,he stopped the starting deportation(from may15.44-9.july44) but after he been removed,the killings started. thats all,thanks for reading. you must not agree, but since im hungarian,i can seperate the brainwashed communist propaganda and facts. every country had its trash,i admit. but hungary's extreme negative reputation in his role in ww2 is nothin more as a balloon


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## Civettone (Nov 7, 2007)

When I think of the German allies (Rom, Hung, Ital) I think they had better fielded only half of their divisions but equiped them with the guns and mechanized transport of the other divisions. That way they could have achieved more with committing less men. This would also be more appreciated at the home front.

Interesting Story on Hungary, I didn't know they were looking for a way out.
Kris


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## Udet (Nov 12, 2007)

Trautloft, hello.

Very interesting comments there.

I certainly had heard Hungary was trying to find its way out of the mess of the war to no avail; but the fact remains, the Hungarian armed forces fought until the very end by the side of German troops. The siege of Budapest, which was as brutal as any other battle fought in the eastern front, is clear evidence of this.

The Italians negotiated an armistice under the table; Romania was knocked out of the war during the summer of 1944 and turned against the former German ally; the Fins too found their way out of the war.

With this i am in no way trying to imply the Hungarians were something like "members of the evil side". Not at all. That is not the mindset i have when discussing world war two.

Hungary, just like the rest of the "axis minors" found itself in an awkward position within the European geo-political order when the war commenced. German pressure from one direction, Soviet pressure from the other.

Given the context of things i understand no European nation of today finds it flattering to affirm "we were allies of the Reich"; i can understand that part, also i can deal with the fact present-day Hungarians, Romanians and Finnish want to distance themselves from anything that might imply or represent affinity with the policies and practices of Nazi Germany.

It is 100% true Germany applied pressure on Hungary to conform to the Reich´s policies. But tell me, what Power does not do the same thing in order to attain outlined plans and goals?

A personal opinion for sure, but for what the anecdote is worth: I once met a guy of Hungarian origin whose grandfather flew in the Hungarian Air Force during the war; he told me that his granpa felt proud to have fought the bolsheviks by the side of the Germans.


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## Civettone (Nov 14, 2007)

Good post, Udet!



Kris


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## Trautloft (Jan 2, 2008)

i agree,and im thankful for your opinions,guys.you are all well informed,and also objective.we discuss here ww2,its war machines,its commanders,and we appreciate the great planes,plans,persons and despise the crimes committed on both sides. my post been some kind of cry for help, usually ppl dont have a clue about the real facts,they just say something dumb. education isnt well prepared-anywhere- to face the extremely complex story of ww2 (thats why WE are here, to learn,to change our thoughts,thats why we are fascinated about it). just an example..most people,of foreign countries dont know anything about Hungary's and Horthy's role..if im talking german on public game servers with my friend,im called nazi and so on. thats just sad. thanks again Udet and Civ


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## Freebird (Jan 3, 2008)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> Romania really suffered for little benefit. Too bad.



Thats not the half of it. The supposed "benefit" to Rumania of captured Soviet territory (Moldova) also came at the cost of the NW part of Rumania (Transylvania) amputated by their so-called ally and given to Hungary


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## Konigstiger205 (Jan 3, 2008)

Those where terrible times...my country and others payed the price...and no offense Trautloft I know that Hungary was as eager as us to exit the war but if your country was so determined to involve so little why did it take Transylvania?I'm not pointing fingers...it won't matter anyway now...and don't consider Antonescu a war criminal...he was in fact the one who saved our country during those times...but like I said...it doesn't matter now...


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## Freebird (Jan 3, 2008)

Trautloft said:


> i agree,and im thankful for your opinions,guys.you are all well informed,and also objective.we discuss here ww2,its war machines,its commanders,and we appreciate the great planes,plans,persons and despise the crimes committed on both sides. my post been some kind of cry for help, usually ppl dont have a clue about the real facts,they just say something dumb. education isnt well prepared-anywhere- to face the extremely complex story of ww2 (thats why WE are here, to learn,to change our thoughts,thats why we are fascinated about it). just an example..most people,of foreign countries dont know anything about Hungary's and Horthy's role..*if im talking german on public game servers with my friend,im called nazi and so on. thats just sad*. thanks again Udet and Civ



Thats because there are lots of ignorant people on the web Trautloft...


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## Trautloft (Jan 3, 2008)

konigstiger,because transylvania always belonged to hungary,and because of the almost 2million hungarians living there.we must not discuss about trianon treaty now,but the ethnical isolations weren't fair. pure hungarian territories been split like most of transylvania, ,currently south slovakia, and the north of former yugoslavia.i wrote about it before,above. if u ask this,what about 1920,after romanian troops occupied almost half of hungary,taking even Budapest and placing their capitol there for a very short time? on the other side,the romanian occupation ended the communist terror or Kun 
Béla. anyway,its past, but you know very well the negative propaganda about hungarians before,under and after ceausescu. they werent allowed to practice their own language,culture,education, even as millions lived there.just like in slovakia. i hope it changed with EU. once again,i either point with fingers,and dont blame you.the difference between antonescu and horthy been, that antonescu was a nazi,and the Iron Guard is nothing better as the SS. he was the first eager allie to attack stalin (i know that before that,stalin gave Royal Romania a few hours to purge eastern moldavia,they took it back ,but later they carried on at attacks).antonescu didnt save your country in my opinion but King Mikael did as he set him under arrest and did the royal coup


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## Kurfürst (Jan 3, 2008)

Konigstiger205 said:


> ..of course we did get Transilvania back from the Hungarians...



I`d certainly argue about the 'back' part, hmm, how can someone get something back that was never his..? The ethnical composition of the region is far more complicated than just, and ironically, IMHO it was best settled in the 1940s treaties, a pretty fair overall solution, which however satisfied either sides... Anyway, this is not the thread to discuss such IMHO.

PS :_ Re Hungarian 'jumping out' attemps. The picture you are having in your avatar is depicting a Köngistiger was made in October 1944, the tank belonging to the sPz Abt. 503 in the Royal Palace in Budapest. The picture was taken in front of the old barracks (now the Museum and Archive of Military History) in the Castle District. The Germans knew about the (second, the first one was in March 1944) 'jump out' attempt via thereintelligenc and the heavy tanks, deployed on the scene a day earlier by railway, rolled up to the castle and after some small scale fighting suppressed the attempt and placed the local minor Nazi party in charge of the state._


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## Konigstiger205 (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks for the info about my avatar  as for the Transylvania matter I don't want to argue with you because it won't matter anyway...after all we all are here to discus WW2 not to argue like fools about it.


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