# Was the P-61 Black Widow a good night fighter?



## carman1877 (Nov 13, 2009)

Do you think that the P-61 Black Widow was a good night fighter, because I am not sure and what like to see what other people think.? Also does anyone have any interior pictures, diagrams, or cutaways? 

Thanks


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## renrich (Nov 13, 2009)

I think it was a excellent night fighter. If you can lay hands on Dean, "America's Hundred Thousand" there is a complete section on the P61 with lots of info.


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## tomo pauk (Nov 13, 2009)

Agree, it was a right tool for the job.

You might try to find the "In action" and/or "Walkaround" series of books (Squadron Signal publishing) that cover it.


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## Messy1 (Nov 13, 2009)

Here are some pics I have gathered. I thought I had a cutaway diagram of the Widow. My personal favorite fro WW2.


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## Messy1 (Nov 13, 2009)

A few more.


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## beaupower32 (Nov 13, 2009)

During World War I, military aircraft conducted operations primarily in daylight hours, aside from night bombing raids by the Germans and later the British and French. Early in World War II, the Luftwaffe and Royal Air Force were finding it so costly to bomb enemy targets during the day that by late 1940 they were flying the majority of their bombing missions at night. To counter this, defenders on both sides perfected airborne intercept radar that made night fighting more practical and removed the safety blanket that darkness had provided. Both Germany and Britain pioneered the development of radar and night fighting tactics.

When the United States entered the war in December 1941, the wheels were already in motion for production of a specialized American all-weather night fighter. Northrop won the contract for what would become the P-61 Black Widow, the first aircraft designed from the ground up for the task. It would carve out a widely feared reputation with both Japanese and Luftwaffe aircrews that flew night missions. The Widow’s lethal bite could rival anything the enemy had to offer. It bristled with four forward-firing 20mm cannons in the belly and a dorsal turret that held four .50-caliber machine guns (some of the early models were produced with no dorsal turret because mass production of the Boeing B-29 Super*fortress was using up most of the turret production).

Even back in the early 1940s, a sophisticated aircraft like the P-61 could not be designed, tested and made operational in a few months. The first P-61s did not reach the forward areas in the Pacific until late June 1944. As a result, the Black Widow’s amazing record was compiled in just over a year.

The 6th Night Fighter Squadron was the first to receive the new aircraft. The squadron had already seen combat in the Pacific, flying the Douglas P-70, a night fighter developed from the A-20 Havoc. In early March 1944, the 6th was pulled back to Hawaii to prepare for delivery of the new night fighter, which began arriving in early May. A short time later, the squadron was checked out, and its pilots began their long flight to Saipan. They island-hopped from John Rogers Field in Hawaii to Palmyra Island, to Canton Island and on to Tarawa. From there they hit Kwajalein, Eniwetok and finally Saipan. Because Saipan was constantly raided at night by Japanese bombers, there was very little time for the 6th to get adjusted. Its crews were almost immediately thrown into demanding night patrols.

Two P-61 aircrews in the Pacific ended their tour with four confirmed kills, and one crew made ace. One of the four-victory crews, Lieutenant Dale Haberman and his radio operator (R/O) Lieutenant Ray Mooney, flew an early model P-61A named Moonhappy with the 6th NFS. On the night of June 30, 1944, just days after the 6th had gone operational on Saipan, they encountered a Mitsubishi G4M2 “Betty” bomber escorted by a Japanese fighter, most likely a Mitsubishi A6M5 Zero. What made this confrontation especially dramatic was the fact that the intercom exchanges between Haberman and Mooney were transmitted back to base during the harrowing duel, and the unfolding action drew a crowd of listeners.

In the middle of an uneventful patrol, the silence was suddenly broken when control radioed that it had detected an intruder coming straight toward Lieuten*ant Haberman’s P-61. Of course the enemy pilot had no idea of the trap awaiting him as the Black Widow began setting up for the kill. Staying below the ap*proaching Betty’s flight path until it passed over them, Haberman went to full power and did a gut-wrenching 180 in order to get in behind the enemy bomber, which was headed straight for Saipan and its airfields.

As they closed on the radar image, Lieutenant Mooney told Haberman to throttle back slightly because the single target had suddenly become two—one of which was a Japanese fighter tucked in close to the bomber. The enemy planes climbed to 17,000 feet, still unaware of the night fighter closing from their 6 o’clock position. As the gap narrowed to about 700 feet, Mooney told Haberman to start firing, and before he could finish his sentence the four 20mms opened up with a deafening roar as the P-61 continued to close. The cannon rounds walked all over the hapless Betty’s fuselage, and it immediately burst into flames, dropped its nose sharply and plummeted straight down to the water.

Haberman and Mooney had scored the first P-61 victory in the Pacific theater. The fight was far from over, however, as the lone Japanese fighter had moved far out to the side and eased in behind Moonhappy. Although the night fighters did not use tracer rounds for good reason, the enemy fighter pilot had probably been in a position to see the fire coming from the 20mm barrels as Haberman flamed the Betty. From there, he moved in on the P-61’s rear.

It didn’t take long for Mooney to realize where the second enemy plane had gone. He yelled: “Look out Hap! There’s a Jap fighter on our tail!” Listeners back at squadron ops were held spellbound by the silence that followed. In the interval the enemy fighter fired a burst that missed wide. Once he had been alerted to the danger, Haberman dropped his port wing with the nose of the P-61 pointed down at a steep angle, heading for the deck at full throttle. As he plummeted he kicked the rudders, taking evasive action to make sure the bogey was not still on his tail.

At about 1,200 feet above the water, Haberman leveled off, still maintaining maximum airspeed. Then he made a quick turn, hoping to go back and get a radar lock on the enemy plane, but nothing showed up. The fighter had disappeared into the night. It was an unusual incident: The Betty had probably been serving as the fighter’s eyes and ears, and that’s why he had been tucked in so close, making only one blip on the radar screen.

On Christmas night 1944, the Japanese intensified their nocturnal attacks against Saipan. The squadron intercepted many of the raiders and shot down several. Lieutenant Robert L. Ferguson, a pilot in the 6th, was flying in his assigned P-61A-5 named The Virgin Widow. He vividly recalled that mission, during which his Black Widow made a spectacular kill: “We scrambled at 2200 hours and it didn’t take long to get airborne because our equipment—oxygen masks, helmets and parachutes—was already in the cockpit, and when we were dropped off on the flight line, the crew chief was ready to strap us in and by 2204 hours we were airborne. Control directed us close enough to get a radar contact at seven miles. We were drawn lower and lower and finally, at 1,500 feet, I figured we were tracking a surface craft and didn’t want to fly into the water. This type of intercept happened many times and we had to check every one out because sometimes the Japanese bombers came in right above the water.”

With enemy activity unusually high, it didn’t take long for control to radio another contact to the P-61 crewmen. They were told to steer 180 degrees, with the bogey 45 miles out flying at 10,000 feet. Within minutes, the intruder’s altitude increased and control told them to move up to 15,000 feet. By this time the R/O had a contact at five miles, with the target slightly above them. The overtake speed was 40 mph. When the range decreased to 2,500 feet, Lieutenant Ferguson put down flaps and reduced speed by at least 50 mph in order to ease in from behind on the bogey’s blind spot. With*out warning, however, the target began to accelerate.

“My closure was lost when he started pulling away,” Ferguson said, “so I pulled the flaps and this gave me a boost that settled us in behind at about 1,200 feet, where I was able to get a visual. I continued closing down to 300 feet, where I positively identified it as a Mitsubishi Betty bomber, which was very fast [280 mph] with a long range of over 2,500 miles. I moved in directly behind and level with him before firing a short burst into his port engine and the forward part of its fuselage. Seconds later, I observed a small explosion in the fuselage, which quickly turned into a red glow as the fire spread just behind the wing root and the Betty’s airspeed dropped abruptly, causing me to make a sharp turn to port while throttling back to avoid an overshoot. We eased up alongside the stricken bomber, gradually easing back to try and get behind him for another 20mm burst. I put a few rounds into it and the nose dropped and by now the entire aircraft was engulfed in flames. It went straight into the ocean and exploded on impact.”


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## beaupower32 (Nov 13, 2009)

Lieutenant Ferguson was given another vector that proved to be a surface craft, so he returned to Saipan and landed at 0240. The crew chief confirmed that they had expended a total of 100 20mm rounds with all four guns firing. The Virgin Widow was a virgin no more, and the next day Sergeant Miozzi, Ferguson’s crew chief and the squadron artist, painted a wedding ring on the widow’s left hand.

The top scorer that Christmas night was Moon*happy. Lieutenant Haberman took off on his patrol at 2000. During the next two hours and 20 minutes, he and his crew would be credited with a double kill—two Betty bombers. On direction from their controller (Coral Base), they set up a figure-eight orbit north of Saipan at an altitude of 15,000 feet. The patrol started out uneventfully, with no bogeys showing up on control’s radar. Then Coral Base called to say they were getting a lot of snow on their screen and some blips that indicated several intruders headed toward the island. Haberman was vectored toward the one closest to him, and at five miles Lieutenant Mooney picked it up on his scope. This one proved to be a little different, as it appeared to be orbiting.

Finally, after a few minutes, the bogey straightened out and headed north. Moonhappy gave chase and quickly narrowed the gap. The intruder proved to be far below them, so Haberman cut back on power and dropped down to 9,000 feet, putting Moonhappy in position to close from the rear at the same altitude. The gunner, Private Patrick Farrelly, got a visual from about 2,000 feet, and after a few seconds the Americans were close enough to see they had intercepted a Betty that wasn’t aware of their presence. Beginning at 1,500 feet, the Black Widow fired short bursts as it closed to 700 feet. Some of the rounds hit the target, causing the enemy pilot to make some drastic maneuvers in an effort to shake the night fighter. Haberman stayed focused and hung onto the Betty’s tail, continuing to pump shorts bursts into its wing root and fuselage.

Haberman recalled what happened at this stage of the pursuit: “As the enemy bomber made violent turns to try and get away from my guns, I stayed in close and continued to pepper him all over. At that point, the Betty’s pilot put it into a slight dive and evidently had it at full throttle because we were hitting speeds of 320 mph or better. Then he rolled to port in an imbalance of split-S and nosed straight down with flames coming out of his right wing and right engine. For a few moments, we lost visual on the target at about 6,000 feet as it went through some thin clouds completely out of control. It was counted as a kill because there is no way that the aircraft could have pulled out and it probably fell into the water in scattered pieces. But we didn’t have much of a chance to catch our breath.”

Just moments later, Lieutenant Mooney had another blip on his airborne interception (AI) scope. The second bogey was only two miles away, so its pilot had probably seen the fireball of Haberman’s first kill. It is a wonder that any of the Japanese bombers remained in the area if they were in radio contact with each other, since the 6th’s aircraft made several kills within a short period of time.

Moonhappy closed very fast with the second intruder, which was down low, at about 4,500 feet. The moon was well positioned, so the crewmen were able to make a visual identification 2,500 feet from the target. When they had closed to within 700 feet, Haber*man opened up with everything he had. The rounds from all eight guns bracketed the bomber, and it exploded violently. There was no time to react before Moonhappy waded into the scattered debris. Fortunately for the crew, the only damage done to the P-61 was to the left cowling. This time the Americans were able to track the flaming wreckage all the way down to the water. At this point they were 160 miles from Saipan, but they had no trouble making it safely back to base. They had burned 550 gallons of fuel on the mission and fired 327 20mm rounds and 525 rounds of .50-caliber. It had been one of the 6th Squadron’s most re*warding patrols of the war.

The 548th Night Fighter Squadron did not receive its Black Widows until September 1944. The unit’s first foray into the forward areas was on Saipan, and from there it flew out of Iwo Jima and Ie Shima before war’s end. The 548th’s aircraft had some of the most elaborate nose art of any night fighter unit. Although the squadron’s combat tour didn’t last long, it was credited with five victories. One of its crews, pilot Captain James W. Bradford and R/O Lieutenant Lawrence Lunt, chalked up a kill in Midnite Madness on June 24, 1945.

Captain Bradford recalled that mission: “We were airborne at 1835 hours, which put us up at dusk. It had been an uneventful patrol and it looked like there would be no action when we got a call from control at 2120 hours. They had just picked up a possible bogey coming into our area at 20,000 feet and 30 miles southwest of Point Charley. I immediately started a climb up to 23,000 feet as we headed in that direction. Lieutenant Lunt picked up the AI contact at a distance of eight miles and five degrees above, and he would control the intercept until we were close enough to get a positive visual identification. On this mission we had our gunner, Master Sgt. Reno Sukow, with us, which gave us another set of eyes. Our external tanks were almost dry, so we dropped them to give us more speed and maneuverability. Our ground control gave us a vector that would get to the intruder in the shortest period of time.

“The closure was fast and the bogey maintained a steady airspeed with no evasive action, so he was clueless as to what was coming up from the rear. Sergeant Sukow was perched up in the gunner’s compartment with night binoculars, and this allowed him to get a visual at 7,000 feet out. He talked me in as we closed, and at 2,000 feet I was able to see the enemy aircraft and it was a Betty bomber. From that point on, he was easy to track because we had a full moon and I was careful to close behind and below so we were in their blind spot. I eased into position to fire a short burst at about 700 feet and it didn’t seem to have any effect on the enemy bomber. A long second burst converged on his port engine and it immediately burst into flames, which quickly spread to the fuselage. In that glow, we saw the large rising sun painted on the side.”

Bradford fired a third burst that amplified the flames already starting to engulf the fuselage. The Betty then turned into a slight glide to port, still closely followed by the Black Widow. At first the enemy pilot seemed to have good control of his aircraft even though fire was consuming it, but then the nose dropped and he lost about 5,000 feet in altitude. Suddenly the Betty exploded in a huge fireball. Large pieces of the aircraft fell straight down into the ocean, where it continued to burn until the water extinguished it. Midnite Madness lingered briefly at 1,500 feet until Lieutenant Lunt picked up some returns on his scope, which turned out to be “window” (chaff) that had been dispersed by the doomed bomber. In the final report on this kill, it was noted that the mission had consumed 660 gallons of gasoline and 600 rounds of 20mm.

Lady in the Dark, another P-61 from the 548th NFS, was one of the most photographed Black Widows in the Pacific theater. Captain Lee Kendall was Lady in the Dark’s assigned pilot. What this Black Widow did at war’s end bordered on unbelievable: It scored the final two kills of WWII—one on the last night and one almost 24 hours after hostilities had officially ended—without firing a shot!


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## beaupower32 (Nov 13, 2009)

On the night of August 14, 1945, Lady was flown by another crew and in a low-altitude pursuit when the enemy fighter hit the water and exploded without a single round being fired. The war ended at 2400 that night, but there remained the possibility of night kamikaze attacks against American airfields. Therefore, the P-61s remained on alert.

The following evening, Captain Kendall took off at 1910 for a routine patrol. Less than an hour later the controller said he had a possible bogey coming toward the P-61 at an altitude of 4,500 feet. Contact was made quickly, and Kendall’s radar observer picked up window several times, which meant the intruder was using defensive tactics as he got closer to Ie Shima. As the Black Widow closed, the intruder made some hard turns in an effort to shake any pursuit.

Kendall recalled the chase: “Getting close enough for a positive identification proved to be difficult. He was taking violent evasive action and dropping window, which was bundles of tinsel-like strips of aluminum foil designed to confuse our radar. This guy knew we were behind him but I have no idea how he knew. My R/O, Lieutenant Scheerer, was talking me in closer to about 800 feet when all of a sudden the left side pilot’s window pop*ped open and the rush of air drowned out the communications with him. Down this low at such a high speed and not being able to understand my observer was very unhealthy.

“I had to back off, secure the window and then get back in touch with him. In the meantime, I lost contact with the bogey, but quickly picked him up again and was able to close on his tail again despite his defensive moves. I had one eye on my target and one eye on my altimeter. Suddenly, the window popped open again and once again I closed it, and as I picked him up for a third time the same thing happened again! Regardless, I went after him for a fourth time and control gave me permission to shoot him down even though we didn’t have a positive identification.”

Kendall locked on again, and a few seconds later the bogey completely disappeared off the scope and no more window was detected. According to witnesses on the ground, the intruder crashed and the debris was scattered over a wide area. It had been a Nakajima Ki.44 “Tojo” fighter that probably was up to no good. Lady in the Dark had prevented him from carrying out his mission, assuming he had one. This was not listed as an official kill because the war had already ended. But the fact remains that a Black Widow had made the final two kills of World War II without firing its guns.

Warren Thompson has been collecting material for 40 years on all aspects of military aviation from 1937 to the present. He spent more than 10 years researching and contacting WWII night fighter pilots, resulting in numerous articles and two books, P-61 Black Widow Units in World War II and P-61 Black Widow, which he recommends for further reading.


Taken from HistoryNet – From the World’s Largest History Magazine Publisher It is a great story


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## carman1877 (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks for the information, should it be considered teh BEST night fighter of World War II? I belive that the only two that could compare would be the Beaufighter, mostly RAAF with 4 20mms, and 4 .50s. And the German me 262.


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## renrich (Nov 13, 2009)

I don't believe the ME 262 was used as a night fighter. The P61 had a lot more performance than the Beaufighter.


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## beaupower32 (Nov 13, 2009)

Probably the Bf-110G-4 would be a better canidate than the Me-262.


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## tomo pauk (Nov 13, 2009)

Here is one of polls about night fighters:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/polls/best-allied-nightfighter-p-61-mosquito-hellcat-5677.html


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## Messy1 (Nov 13, 2009)

I think had the war gone on longer, you would have seen the kill numbers for the Black Widow grow a little, but by the time it entered service, targets were few and far between. Had it been available earlier in the war, it would have made a bigger contribution and easily could be called the best IMO. I think if you are defining the "best" as the most advanced and innovative, then yes. But if by the "best" you mean the most kills or biggest contribution, than no. The Widow did not have a long enough deployment time to make a mark to rival the other night fighters. But, maybe just the appearance of the P-61 in the skies was enough of a threat to keep many of it's would be targets grounded instead of flying at night, thus hurting it's kills scores as well.


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## riacrato (Nov 13, 2009)

Some Me 262s were used as nightfighters, but wilde sau type mostly, so no AI control.

P-61 is okay but not very impressive imo when you consider the time it entered service and the fact that it was a purpose built nightfighter. Mosquito was imo way superior and the airframe was multi-purpose.


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## beaupower32 (Nov 13, 2009)

Messy1 said:


> I think had the war gone on longer, you would have seen the kill numbers for the Black Widow grow a little, but by the time it entered service, targets were few and far between. Had it been available earlier in the war, it would have made a bigger contribution and easily could be called the best IMO. I think if you are defining the "best" as the most advanced and innovative, then yes. But if by the "best" you mean the most kills or biggest contribution, than no. The Widow did not have a long enough deployment time to make a mark to rival the other night fighters. But, maybe just the appearance of the P-61 in the skies was enough of a threat to keep many of it's would be targets grounded instead of flying at night, thus hurting it's kills scores as well.




I agree with everything here Messy1, good post.


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## davebender (Nov 13, 2009)

> P-61 is okay but not very impressive imo when you consider the time it entered service


I agree. The U.S. Navy F7F had far superior performance. Why didn't the U.S. Army Air Corps purchase a night fighter variant of the F7F rather then the historical P-61?


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## Erich (Nov 13, 2009)

since I am writing about the anti-mossie units over Germany will say this the me 262 twin seater did have radar and none of the units 262's flew wilde sau missions, that is not the correct term for their operations.

The P-61 was one of the best NF ground attack fighters in combat, as a NF it was hoped it could and would do better but it lacked.


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## Shortround6 (Nov 13, 2009)

davebender said:


> I agree. The U.S. Navy F7F had far superior performance. Why didn't the U.S. Army Air Corps purchase a night fighter variant of the F7F rather then the historical P-61?



Maybe because there was a slight difference in timing between the two planes?

Not only were the intital contracts signed about 6 monthe apart but the first flight of the prototype P-61 was in May of 1942 while the first F7F didn't fly until Nov of 1943 18 months later. First P-61 squadron is on it's way to England 3 months after the F7F first flies.

For actual use in WW II the F7F was "vaporware".


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## Milosh (Nov 13, 2009)

Erich said:


> since I am writing about the anti-mossie units over Germany will say this the me 262 twin seater did have radar and none of the units 262's flew wilde sau missions, that is not the correct term for their operations..



How many radar equipped Me262s were there?


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## carman1877 (Nov 13, 2009)

The P-61 was superior is armament and firepower. having 4 hispano 20mm cannons, and 4 M2 .50 machiens gun is very good for night fighting. Since th turret could go up to 90 degrees(vertical) it could be used like the German vertically mounted cannons, for attacking the belly of a bomber. It also carried 6,400lbs. of bombs, whitch I verified and that is correct. However they used only carried HVAR rockets and fuel unless on a ground attack mission. When some night fighting units using a modified A-20 got the Widow they thought that it was far superior than the other planes they had flown. It also was one of the night fighters that was actually was supposed to be a night fighter from drawing board to be used in action. It also had two types of radar. One was standard search and the other was tail warning to tell the crew when they were generally in danger. The only main flaw that was pointed out by the Britsh, I think, is that they thought it had too many windows, whitch could compromise crew safety I quess. This is why the British stayed with the Mosquito. Unlike the german and british fighters that had more guns, the Widow has .50 cal not 7.62mm whitch means that every hits counts more.

I quess that I would have to give it to the Widow in case of electronics, and firepower.


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## riacrato (Nov 14, 2009)

IIRC the turret wasn't fitted to a lot of the P-61s operating in Europe. And If you compare it to a Ju 88 G, which is the only fair comparison to a German night fighter, you will see that its armament was comparable. And even without any turret I'm tempted to take a Mosquito over both of them.


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## Hop (Nov 14, 2009)

The P-61 wasn't really fast enough when it entered service in 1944. At the same time as the Widow went operational the Mosquito NF 30 was capable of over 400 mph. 



> I quess that I would have to give it to the Widow in case of electronics, and firepower.



Contemporary Mosquito night fighters had the same radar and the same 4 20mm armament.


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## davebender (Nov 14, 2009)

The U.S. Army Air Corps operated some Mosquito night fighters during WWII. An aircraft arguably superior to the P-61. So why not stick with the Mosquito until the F7F enters service?


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## tomo pauk (Nov 14, 2009)

Only thing P-61 lacked was timing. One year earlier into fray, or at least six moths, it would make a mess out of axis planes over Germany and Pacific. In the last war year there was no more glory to grab for a new night fighter (unless Germans produced something that could destroy Mossies in droves).


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## davebender (Nov 14, 2009)

What does that arguement prove? The same thing could be said for a lot of WWII era weapons. For instance if the Do-217 bomber and Fw-190A fighter appear a year early the Battle of Britain looks a lot different.


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## tomo pauk (Nov 14, 2009)

Hmmm, lets see:
R-2800 was around in 1941.
The AI radar equipped RAF planes were flying in 1941 in numbers.
Both were reliable for military use.

Luftwaffe needed the BMW-801 to have 190 and 217.
801 was reliable in 1942.

My conclusion:
While P-61 was very much feasible at least in 1943, the planes you mentioned would be falling as bricks from the sky, without RAF's intervention, in 1940.


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## Njaco (Nov 14, 2009)

I'm away at work at the moment and not with my resources but....

I believe it was the Me-262B that was the night-fighter version and mostly flown by Kurt Welter.


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## Erich (Nov 14, 2009)

Welter's unit had their twin seaters operating separate from the Me 262A-1's that were the standard for the staffel. Same area but different concrete and grass fields, more in my book and yes this was the type that was suppose to combat the Mossie ......... good luck !

I would say overall the Ju 88G-6 was superior to the P-61 A and B. the 9th AF removed all upper turrets from their Widows, didn't need them, radar ops position was moved right behind the pilot


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## Messy1 (Nov 14, 2009)

The P-61 was purpose designed to carry the most advanced radar of the day, which was a big, bulky unit. I do not see the high top speed being as big of a factor as in a day fighter. The role of a night fighter has different requirements than that of a day fighter. The P-61 was designed to sneak up on it's opponents and blow them out of the sky. All the speed in the world will not help you if you cannot find the enemy in the first place. The P-61 had a 1600 mile range with the use of 4 drop tanks so it could hang and loiter around waiting for targets of opportunity. I do believe had it been available earlier in the war, it would have proven it's value and become the dominant Allied night fighter.


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## davebender (Nov 14, 2009)

> All the speed in the world will not help you if you cannot find the enemy in the first place.


Did the P-61 have AI radar superior to the Ju-88G and Mosquito?


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## Messy1 (Nov 14, 2009)

davebender said:


> Did the P-61 have AI radar superior to the Ju-88G and Mosquito?



Off of Wiki. Mosquitos used two different styles of radar. The AI Mk IV was standard, and some were upgraded to a AI Mk VIII radar. The Black Widow used a SCR-720 radar. I am not the guy to ask which one was superior, my thinking is the Black Widows was the most advanced at the time in a plane. I may be wrong. I am sure someone on here will tell us for sure which one was best, including the JU-88's radar system.


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## Erich (Nov 14, 2009)

the performance ration between the Ju and the Widow......well ah have interviewed those that have flown those crates from both sides. that is a decison that is left for the preference of those crews in their minds as they did not fly each others units to even make a fair comparison. the Mossie XXX was the supreme Allied craft for nocturnal excursions.

have mentioned this in the past I was a member of the US NF association before it's disbandonment so was able to have copies of the 9th ETO units official microfische. with that I composed back in the early 80's ? some pretty heavy hitting data fo the NF war in general and my personal studies. What I did find though AI was the norm for the Widow that the 422nd and 425nfs squadrons and elts just say in equal if not more crates than a regular LW NF staffel had an incredibly high percentage of AI breakdowns while on ops. does this mean just faulty electronics or ground techs not knowing the AI's in and outs.............. that cannot be determined, what I also found was the crews of the Widows ID was not in part that great and many Allied NF's were chased with the results of 0 engagements, thank GOD. the AI for the Widow according to the data picked up loads of ground interference.

in my opinion the alte war SN-2 of the LW was nothing but crap. it was plugged by Window with ease, only in march of 45 when they introduced their own version of AI were they then on par with the Allies. their Naxos was a standard never blocked by Allied intel during 1945, but not all Ju's were fitted. It is still a wonder to me that with all the bombing of the Reich that the LW NF force was still to acquire new gadgets to work with right till wars end.

lets remember about loiter time, the Allies needed a long range crate unti making bases on the continent, the LW on the other hand defending it's own airpsace needed none of the extra afuels as it had bases enough to refill if at all possible, the drawback of corse was the 262 NF even with twin nose drop tanks it was not enough to hang with BC bombers for a lengthy period for attack. but too the tactics for Welters band was different than the overal LW NF force.


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## drgondog (Nov 14, 2009)

davebender said:


> I agree. The U.S. Navy F7F had far superior performance. Why didn't the U.S. Army Air Corps purchase a night fighter variant of the F7F rather then the historical P-61?



The F7F was first deployed to USMC in summer 1945 due to the issues during carrier trials - a year later than the P-61.


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## davebender (Nov 14, 2009)

> first deployed to USMC in summer 1945 due to the issues during carrier trials


Yes but when did those carrier trials start? That's the beginning point for F7F operational service.


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## Hop (Nov 14, 2009)

> Off of Wiki. Mosquitos used two different styles of radar. The AI Mk IV was standard, and some were upgraded to a AI Mk VIII radar. The Black Widow used a SCR-720 radar. I am not the guy to ask which one was superior, my thinking is the Black Widows was the most advanced at the time in a plane.



From 1943 onwards the AI Mk X supplanted AI Mk VIII in the Mosquito. The Mk X was a British version of the SCR-720. So no difference in the radar fits at all.


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## Njaco (Nov 14, 2009)

Erich said:


> the performance ration between the Ju and the Widow......well ah have interviewed those that have flown those crates from both sides. that is a decison that is left for the preference of those crews in their minds as they did not fly each others units to even make a fair comparison. the Mossie XXX was the supreme Allied craft for nocturnal excursions.
> 
> have mentioned this in the past I was a member of the US NF association before it's disbandonment so was able to have copies of the 9th ETO units official microfische. with that I composed back in the early 80's ? some pretty heavy hitting data fo the NF war in general and my personal studies. What I did find though AI was the norm for the Widow that the 422nd and 425nfs squadrons and elts just say in equal if not more crates than a regular LW NF staffel had an incredibly high percentage of AI breakdowns while on ops. does this mean just faulty electronics or ground techs not knowing the AI's in and outs.............. that cannot be determined, what I also found was the crews of the Widows ID was not in part that great and many Allied NF's were chased with the results of 0 engagements, thank GOD. the AI for the Widow according to the data picked up loads of ground interference.
> 
> ...



Erich would the Brits or US use the same equipment to defend against Intruder missions?


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## Messy1 (Nov 14, 2009)

Thanks Hop! I stand corrected. Not the first time, and with the knowledge on this fourm, I am certain it won't be the last!


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## drgondog (Nov 14, 2009)

davebender said:


> Yes but when did those carrier trials start? That's the beginning point for F7F operational service.



Not for a practical night fighter. 

The marines first started training ops ~ April 1944 in the -1 (single seat ground based fighter while USN was having problems in carrier qual with single engine landing issues and tail hook), but the first deployment of the night fighter version with two seat/radar operator was the -2 and -2N which deployed to Guam in July 1945.


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## Erich (Nov 14, 2009)

Njaco

that is a yes at first until the US did in town development, still too many probs and a host of associations with it, ghost like imagery, views of Me 262's and Me 163 fighters at night in early December 44 when in reality Welter was just trying to form up way to the north by Berlin where the 9th Af was not operating. weather even dictated some probs, two Bostons were shot down by mistake by 9th AF Widows due to faulty ID.

V-2's were also claim seen in the distance taking off for who knows where.

for the goodness of the A/C this thing could carry some of the first downloads of Naphalm in the area of the Moselle which of course must of been a rather shock to German ground forces/M-T and in the railroad crossings


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## Shortround6 (Nov 14, 2009)

davebender said:


> Yes but when did those carrier trials start? That's the beginning point for F7F operational service.



The First flight of a F7F prototype was in Nov/Dec of 1943. The First P-61 Squadron Embarked on ship for transfer to England (after training) in Feb of 1944. Considering that the first flight of a P-61 was about 21 months earlier I think we can see that the F7F was vaporware for combat in Europe. 
THe Intial orders for Prototypes were placed back in 1941. 
THe F7F simply wasn't as far along in development as the P-61 when the Army ordered the P-61 and production orders for hundreds of both aircraft were signed before the Protoypes even flew.


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## drgondog (Nov 14, 2009)

Shortround6 said:


> The First flight of a F7F prototype was in Nov/Dec of 1943. The First P-61 Squadron Embarked on ship for transfer to England (after training) in Feb of 1944. Considering that the first flight of a P-61 was about 21 months earlier I think we can see that the F7F was vaporware for combat in Europe.
> THe Intial orders for Prototypes were placed back in 1941.
> THe F7F simply wasn't as far along in development as the P-61 when the Army ordered the P-61 and production orders for hundreds of both aircraft were signed before the Protoypes even flew.



Not to mention that 'gentlemen simply didn't purchase Navy a/c" as the saying went for the USAAF..


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## davebender (Nov 14, 2009)

These same "gentlemen" did purchase Canadian made Mosquito aircraft. Perhaps they could find it in their heart to purchase superior American made F7F aircraft that were originally designed to a USN specification.

Mosquito Aircraft Production at Downsview


> The first USAAF F.8 Mosquito was delivered to Wright Field, Ohio, on June 1. This was serial number 334928, formerly KB 317, a B. Mark VII model.
> 1943
> Downsview, Ontario,



http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=3365


> Although best known for their service with the Royal Air Force, Mosquitoes were also flew in several U.S. Army Air Force units as photographic and weather reconnaissance aircraft and as a night fighter. During the war, the USAAF acquired 40 Canadian Mossies and flew them under the American F-8 (photo reconnaissance) designation. In addition, the British turned over more than 100 Mosquitoes to the USAAF under Reverse Lend-Lease. These aircraft retained their British designations.


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## mhuxt (Nov 14, 2009)

Messy1 said:


> by the time it entered service, targets were few and far between.



Not sure I buy that. Around half of the total claims by Mossies were made after the Allied invasion of Europe.


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## Erich (Nov 14, 2009)

just to add what Mark mentions : German LW Night fighter losses were more in December 1944 than any other month of the war. of course thi is just not P-61's but in most cases falling to BC Mossies, Allied Anti-aircraft placements and crashes of all sorts.


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## Shortround6 (Nov 14, 2009)

davebender said:


> These same "gentlemen" did purchase Canadian made Mosquito aircraft. Perhaps they could find it in their heart to purchase superior American made F7F aircraft that were originally designed to a USN specification.]



Doesn't matter what was in Their hearts as long as in their heads they knew the F7F wouldn't be ready in time. 
Unless you can figure out a way to speed up development (drawing board to prototype flying) by over a year the F7F was not a competiter for the P-61.


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## Graeme (Nov 14, 2009)

P-61 vs B-29. The last air-to-air "kill" of WW2?


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## carman1877 (Nov 15, 2009)

After reading several articles and visiting several sites I have come to the conclusion that maybe the Me 262B night fighter could be better than the P-61. It was faster, had more firepower(4 30mm cannons), and an impressive bombload. It could carry (2) 551lbs. bombs under the nose, and (24) R4m fin folding rockets under the wings in wooden racks. The Me-262B night fighter was a tandem seat aircraft designed to train pilots how to fly a jet.


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## Erich (Nov 15, 2009)

Carman

a little correct note for you: the B model of the Me 262 did not carry or was to carry bombs or R4M rockets, only the A-1a and the A-2 for bombs............the B model was designed as a trainer for single seat pilots as well as useage as a NF in Welters small unit later if war had gone one to be widespread throughout the Nachtjagd. The future use of the B model in the B-2 and later models only test board pieces was to removed the under the nose twin fuel tanks and design much larger fuel cells internally, one on either side of the cockpit wit the cockpit canopy to be more streamlined. it was then the intention of Welter and others wishing for the jet under the belts to contact BC bombers on much a wider scale and be able to fly with more productive jet engines the whole of the Reich or at least what was left of it.

the B-1a/U1 even in it's role during 1945 could not compete with the Widow with fuel range the jet was just way too limited even with the twin nose outboard fuel tanks I described.


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## davebender (Nov 15, 2009)

That's like comparing the P-51 with a Me-109 or Spitfire. Long range bomber escort vs short range interceptor. 

The Me-262 was king of the sky over Germany where it was designed to operate. However I wonder how good the AI radar was as it had to be squeezed into such a small aircraft.


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## Erich (Nov 15, 2009)

king ? nah don't think it was, useful as a speed demon could not turn on a dime, too short range fuel load

in talking of it's ops at night not much is still known too many myths about Welter and the unit, the facts are construed all over the place. it could of been the higest scoring NF staffel or gruppe had it been enlarged during the war, but still as a nf too experimental, too many bugs and other props and jet jobs were being considered.

the FuG 218 equipped in the twin seater was to be removed for the FuG 240A Berlin AI that was issued in the last months for the Ju 88G-6, the antlers of the Neptun on the jet were already knocking off fuel and speed efficinentcy, the more the streamlined the better as I stated about the upcoming and hopeful B-2 jet.


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## Milosh (Nov 15, 2009)

davebender said:


> The Me-262 was king of the sky over Germany where it was designed to operate. However I wonder how good the AI radar was as it had to be squeezed into such a small aircraft.



The FuG 218 was used in the Ju88. The FuG218 in the 262 was planed to be replaced by the FuG224. Guess there was that much trouble installing AI radar in the 262.

edit. I see Erich posted as I was typing up my reply.


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## davebender (Nov 15, 2009)

I doubt that loss of speed was an issue for the Me-262. You could lose 100 mph and still be the fastest object in the night sky.

Fuel consumption is a much more serious matter. Do we have endurance data for the Me-262 night fighter?


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## Erich (Nov 15, 2009)

FuG 224 was not the replacement but a smaller Berlin AI or something in the AI form. Neptun already proven it could be jammed but the twin seaters like the single seaters were on a different mission and that was to seek/destroy LSNF mossie and Mossie intruders. AI was also not considered meaning just to remove the radar sets altogether and even the radar ops position and replace with another internal fuel cell.

and yes speed for the twin seater meant everything, extra internal gear, radr operator and his extra seating, the equipment to go along with him, the radar internal or outter aerials, extra fuel twin tanks external, it all mattered and stressed the thing walled crate to maximum's. a series of things Welter was concerned about and he knew the frontw as against the BC heavy bomber and not the illusive Mossie. the consideration also of the Ar 234B-BN project really interested Welter and he followed it closely during 1945 

I will not post any 262 nf data as it is for my volume but simple to say there are many conflicting reports on the twin seater performance issues as it only flew a handful of times in the air

but hey guys we are getting way OT


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## Watanbe (Nov 15, 2009)

If it's fast, has powerful armament, decent range and a good radar set, chances are it will be a successful NF. The Mossie XXX, JU-88 G6 and the P61 had these attributes. 

Question for Erich, the radar in the JU-88 was inferior to the US and British equivalents, do you think the JU-88 would have achieved the results it did if there wasn't such a vast amount of targets for it. The answer seems obvious, but what I mean is consider that it had to search and chase its targets more than it did?


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## Erich (Nov 15, 2009)

you must remember that in 45 the FuG 220 series and the Fug 218 Neptun were jammed, yes plenty of targets but how did they find their prey. Flensburg was plugged in 44 but still worn by Ju 88G-6 craft, the only thing going for the LW NF's was if equipped with FuG 350Z Naxos. Otherwse good luck if they could see targets blazing and some sort of action then it was fit to fly in that direction knowing full well that you could be targeted by Mossie intruders


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## Milosh (Nov 16, 2009)

Erich said:


> FuG 224 was not the replacement but a smaller Berlin AI or something in the AI form.



Oops,my fat fingers.


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## Marshall_Stack (Nov 16, 2009)

As far as using the F7F instead of the P-61, I think that the P-61C with the uprated engines and use of turbochargers and air brake would have at least made it as good as the F7F. The P-61C would at least have a height advantage.

Attached is the manual for the P-61


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## drgondog (Nov 16, 2009)

Marshall_Stack said:


> As far as using the F7F instead of the P-61, I think that the P-61C with the uprated engines and use of turbochargers and air brake would have at least made it as good as the F7F. The P-61C would at least have a height advantage.
> 
> Attached is the manual for the P-61



The P-61C and F7F-2N were about the same top speed but the P-61C was less manueverable and had a slower rate of climb. They both had similar ceilings. 

I believe the neither deficiency of the P-61C would have been a factor in 1945 and the simple fact is that neither actually engaged and shot down anything in WWII, whereas the P-61B did a nice job in the PTO.


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## carman1877 (Nov 16, 2009)

Erich said:


> Carman
> 
> the B-1a/U1 even in it's role during 1945 could not compete with the Widow with fuel range the jet was just way too limited even with the twin nose outboard fuel tanks I described.



You are right about the small numbers, but the Me-262B did not need long range becuase it was to defend the area around bases, and they never left germany to my knowledge. But they were advanced for their time.


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## Erich (Nov 16, 2009)

actually the idea behind twin nose tanks was to carry the war to BC command in other words give the 262 twin seater more time aloft, the single seater was just too limited. again the twin seater wa to engage BC bombers not mossies like the single seat 262A-1a. the B was not defending it's bases, actually base in the literal sense. Like I said I am working on a volumes about Welter and his band of interesting folk


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## carman1877 (Nov 16, 2009)

Thanks Erich, Its hard to tell what information is right on the web, becuase i read that German high command wanted a new night fighter to take does Mosquitos only, but it could be wrong. Are you sure that the b-1a-u1 could not carry bombs because I thought that I saw a pictture of Red 10 carrying two bombs instead of drop tanks(they had fins unlike the drop tanks).


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## Erich (Nov 16, 2009)

By the way red 10 never flew any operations and what you saw under the nose were the twin external fuel tanks. also that is not Welters mount as Kurt never flew a twin seater


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## carman1877 (Nov 16, 2009)

Was the radar and the homing equipment on the Me-262 good and reliable? i read that they could track RAF bombers based on the bombers radar.


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## Butters (Nov 17, 2009)

It seems to me that the P-61 was basically a very good design, but one that had been unnecessarily handicapped by a severe case of 'committee-itus'...

The extra weight and drag penalty imposed by the essentially redundant quad.50 top turret and the cavernous fuselage design does not seem to be justified in regards to enhancing the a/c's operational efficiency. A two-man crew tandemly seated under a bubble canopy (ala the F-15 Reporter variant) would have made for a faster, better climbing, and OA more efficient offensive NF, IMO.

Erich's comments regarding the Me 262 NF variants are very interesting. From what I've read of WWII NF operations, it seems that while a a slow and stealthy approach to the target a/c was the preferred method of attack, it was also quite common for targets to appear quite suddenly, thus requiring that the attacking a/c reduce its speed as rapidly as possible so as to manouever into a viable firing position, or at least avoid overshooting and alerting the target a/c to its presence.

With this in mind, was the poor response to rapid throttle changes of the early jet engines, and the very clean aerodynamics (Even with the draggy 'antler horn' radar antennae, I'm presuming that the 262 was still significantly 'cleaner' than equivalently equipped prop NF's) considered to be a significant problem? And was there any effort by the designers to develop an equivalent to the 'speed brakes' of early post-war jets?

JL


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## Erich (Nov 17, 2009)

the P-61 config in the ETO was different than the PTO crates in that the radar op sat right behind slightly above the pilot besides not having the upper turreted .50's thus a much cleaner affair.

yes there was as pointed out but probably overlooked the future of the 262 was to be more streamlined and having a heavier though more streamlined fuselage body the sides slightly bulged because of internal fuel loads instead of carrying external fuel tanks in any form. the Arado 234 was seriously considered having the pilot to radar op very similar to the Mossie NF's, crew sitting side by side, armored nose and the gun packages all in the lower fuselage like the tried and tru Ju 88G-6. as also a special form of telegraph read output was being issued into the B twin seater already proven in the Ju 88G-6 and non jammed though this was a definate last two months war feature 

have not heard about the issuance of any type of braking instruments nor any intention of creating and applying them. Personally I feel the only real use of the jet at night was in part it's success on the Mossie


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## Milosh (Nov 17, 2009)

A speed brake was tested on the Mosquito.


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