# Germans demand apology for allied bombing raids



## cheddar cheese (Oct 29, 2004)

I just recieived a pice of news that Germany demand the the Queen to make an apology for the bombing raids during WW2. Here is the article:



> Germans Demand Queen Apologise for WWII
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its ridiculous. There was also a poll on the site saying whether the queen should apologise, and 94% say no she shouldnt.

You can vote here:

http://channels.aolsvc.co.uk/news/article.adp?id=20041029060009990002


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## Maestro (Oct 29, 2004)

I'll repeat myself, but...

Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot. Over.

Who the hell do they think they are ? Germans demanding apology for Allied bombings ? Why not demanding Jews to apologize for resisting to their execution ? Or why not demanding apology for executing their remaning leaders at Nuremberg ?

Do they realize they are acting like freaking idiots ? I read in a newspaper (a while back) that Nazism was geting stronger in Germany since 1980. Looks like it's true.

I hope the Queen won't apologize.


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## evangilder (Oct 29, 2004)

The Queen should tell them to piss off. I lived three years in the UK adn developed quite a fondness for the Brits. They have NO reason to apologize for that. They were helpiing to end something that the Germans started!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 30, 2004)

i'm sorry but i'm part german and even i think that's rediculus, what would they say if the jews made them apologise?? why should we apologise to them, what did we do that they didn't??


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## evangilder (Oct 30, 2004)

The worst part is that they are demanding an apology from the Queen, but not the US President. Both the RAF and the USAAF pounded Dresden, RAF at night, AAF in the day. I guess they probably realize if they asked Bush for an apology, he would probably tell them to kiss his Texas ass. 8)


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 30, 2004)

Or start a war 

The fact remains though that they are idiots.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 30, 2004)

i really hope the queen doesn't apologise, the germans haven't apologised for bombing our cities, do we demand an apology for every commonwealth person killed in the war?? no, because that would be rediculus....................


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 30, 2004)

Exactly. And why do they want an apology from the Queen? She had nothing to do with World War 2


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## Maestro (Oct 30, 2004)

I think everyone on this site know how much I like UK. But I must say that if ever the Queen apologize, all the love and respect I have for UK will be "flushed away".

But, hey, think about it : who forced the Allies to do that ? Didn't Hitler said : "If the Allies wants to take Berlin, we'll let them take only ruins." ?

Now some statistics :

WW I casualities : 8,000,000 deads (total)
WW II casualities : 40,000,000 deads (total) (20,000,000 Russians (2,000,000 only during the Stalingrad battle) - 6,000,000 Jews - 5,000,000 Allies.)

And Germany wants _UK_ to _apologize_ ?????

Am I the only one to be pissed off ?


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 30, 2004)

No, im damn pissed off too.

And if for some stupid reason the Queen apologises, then I will be ashamed to be British.


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## lesofprimus (Oct 30, 2004)

You have a better chance of seeing Usama Bin Laden pop his head outta the Queens ass than see her apologize to the Germans....


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## kiwimac (Oct 30, 2004)

Well,

I'm sure there's more to the story than we can see here, lets just cool down a little and wait and see?

Kiwimac


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 31, 2004)

Cool down? There isnt much to be cool about here...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Oct 31, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> i'm sorry but i'm part german and even i think that's rediculus, what would they say if the jews made them apologise?? why should we apologise to them, what did we do that they didn't??




The Germans did apologise.


For both WW2 AND the Holocaust...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Oct 31, 2004)

Oh yeah, wasn't Dresden mainly a US effort?


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 31, 2004)

I thought it was more to do with the RAF

And if the Germans apologised of their own admission, why suddenly shift the blame?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 31, 2004)

yes dresden was mainly us but the yanks were there to..............


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## HealzDevo (Nov 1, 2004)

The fact remains that the Germans started that phase, because they were pounding enemy cities such as Paris and the cities of Warsaw and that to crush them quickly, long before the battle of Britain began. Their whole system of Blitzkrieg is based on the fact of Shock, Awe and massive might in the form of Stukas, Panzers, Bombers and troops all moving fast and acting as a unit to quickly overwhelm all obstacles in their past, including enemy cities. Blitzkrieg works by inflicting massive casualities and keeping the enemy guessing where and when the next strike will come and against what. Therefore, the war against London was something that the Germans had already done to many of the European countries. It seems however, that we are looking at some Germans that are looking at history through rose-coloured glasses (reference to Nazi flag colour intended) and seeing things as if they had done absolutely nothing to provoke Britain when they full well should know that the invasion of Poland was the final straw as far as Britain was concerned in dealing with a fiend with an insatiable lust for territory and power. Therefore, Germany really brought WW2 on herself, although the Allies do bare maybe a bit of responsibility for what happened, largely what happened was as a result of the actions of the Germans in attempting to destroy Britain and those that opposed them. Don't forget that Germany had military plans for Operation Sealion- The Invasion of the British Isles, which were only called off after it was found out that the RAF had absorbed remarkable damage and recovered to retake the skies over Britain.


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## HealzDevo (Nov 1, 2004)

Because of the ability of the RAF to recover, only the first phase of Operation Sealion was ever carried out. Does anyone, really believe that the Germans would have acted in a very civilized manner once they got their boots on the ground? Not really, as there seems to be reports about German atrocities during the war. Also don't forget that in numerous countries that they invaded, they stirred up resistence moments that were reliant on Britain staying Free as a symbol of hope to them. If Britain had really fallen, it might have been the end for a lot of resistence movements as a Free Britain gave them something worth fighting for, and hope that someday the struggle would be vindicated and that they would be able to one day salute their countries flag in a country free from German control. France and a lot of these other places would probably be opposed to the British appoligizing to Germany for the bombings. This is my interpretations of those dark days of WW2 when it seemed that the whole of Europe might fall to the Germans.


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## HealzDevo (Nov 1, 2004)

That's significant, we are talking about one of the only human regimes that only purely produced darkness, fear and mistrust. It was the French Revolution on a larger scale. If the bombings had not been done then it is possible that Germany could have located all its strategic military resources within cities until ready and then used these to blast Britain off the face of the earth. The reality is that the Germans were trying to blast Britain at the beginning. The Allies, managed to turn the tables and blast the Germans. The bombing of the cities may have been necessary, even though critics doubt this. Hitler was using propaganda on his people, the only way to get through to the German people the reality of what was going on at that time was to bomb Dresden and other German cities. If this hadn't been done the results could have been disastrous. As it is there was a large potential for WW2 to go wrong for the Allies. The last thing they needed was a massively re-equiped German Armed Forces to overrun Britain. The bombing of those cities distracted Hitler from this and made sure that production was channelled into producing Fighters and Flak guns to shoot down the number of Allied bombers crossing the channel, or coming from other bases. The resistance movements were acting as spotters for the Allied Bomber Force. They told of the German City targets that were worth striking and the amount of damage that was done. Whatever damage was done by the Allies in Dresden they had already had that damage meated out to them by the Germans. Therefore, the bombing of cities like Dresden may have stopped an Iraq Gulf War with primative weapons where the rules of engagement may have favoured Hitler.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 1, 2004)

Could you have not put all that into one post?


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## HealzDevo (Nov 3, 2004)

I just preferred to do it that way as I was thinking in between times, + Broadband in Australia is a tad slow sometimes as it would take a day and a bit to download 700mb. Anyway, in summary a Free Britain was important and therefore the Germans were moving to attempt to crush the light of Britain. It is probably safe as I said to assume that Free Britain was a source of inspiration to the Resistence groups in occupied countries during those long hard years. The Germans would have engaged in wholesale slaughter and mayhem. No bombing campaign on the cities may have left Hitler to rebuild his armies and come back a thousand times as strong as he was. The potential was there as plans, equipment and men were already being drawn up against Britain just before the attack on the Russians. Britain had to make sure that Germany didn't have the resources to continue to fight an equal battle, and one of these things was cracking the moral of the German people. By late 1944 early 1945 because of the attacks on German by the Allied Bombers the Germans could see that they had no real chance of winning. The German people wanted to try to hold out to surrender to either the Americans or the British, although finally Russian troops entered the city and acted just as viciously as some of the German Forces had during the war. There is only one real thing that the Americans and the British should really apologize for, and that is leaving Berlin to be taken by the Soviets instead of taking it themselves.


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## MichaelHenley (Nov 3, 2004)

So... In a nutshell, are you for or against the queen apologising? (So much text and so many posts attracts a bit of attention in my computer Studies class, thats all.)


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 4, 2004)

Oh MH, you wouldnt be...SNEAKING ON HERE DURING SCHOL would you? 

Well Im against. With a passion.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 5, 2004)

me too..................


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 6, 2004)

I mean I used to do that in year 9, but with the dawn of year 10 things are much more serious


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 6, 2004)




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## lesofprimus (Nov 6, 2004)

We didnt have computers in High School when i was growin up....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 6, 2004)

all them years ago, would you give anything to be young again??


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## lesofprimus (Nov 6, 2004)

I could definatly go back to age 16 again.... I'd end up RULING THE ENTIRE EASTERN COAST OF AMERICA.....


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 7, 2004)

Ironic really, When you're young you wanna be old, when you're old you wanna be young.


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## MichaelHenley (Nov 7, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> Oh MH, you wouldnt be...SNEAKING ON HERE DURING SCHOL would you?



Sock Horror!   Mwahahaha!


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 8, 2004)

Oh god not the socks again, they told me they'd leave me alone once i gave them the money!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 8, 2004)

stupid thing is, we're told to enjoy life when we're young, but how can we?? we spend most of our young lifes in scholl worrying about exams...................


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 8, 2004)

I think by young they mean pre-secondary school.


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## MichaelHenley (Nov 9, 2004)

> in scholl


I also think that Lanc is german!


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## GermansRGeniuses (Nov 9, 2004)

Nah, school is schule, _auf Deutsch_.

8)


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## MichaelHenley (Nov 9, 2004)

Aah... Maybe just an Englishman uneducated in german. (Similar to me... Except of course the nationality)


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 10, 2004)

Nein
Danke
Scheisse
Gutentagen
Schnell
Herr
Oberst
Uber
Auf
Wiedersehen

Wow, 10 words in me vocab!!!!!


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## GermansRGeniuses (Nov 10, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> Nein
> Danke
> Scheisse
> Gutentagen
> ...



Danke-ok
Scheisse-ok
Gutentagen-X "Guten Tag"
Schnell-ok
Herr-ok
Oberst-ok
Uber-ok, but has the accents over it
Auf-ok
Wiedersehen-X, Always used with Auf, as far as I know...


Here're some more: Luft-Sky
Flug-Flight
Car-Auto
Flugzeug-Aircraft
Ja-yes

There ya go...

Oh, yeah, Waffen-Weapons


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## Maestro (Nov 11, 2004)

You forgot :

Schultz-Staffel (SS) : (No translation needed.)
Kriegs Marine : (War) Navy
Blitz-Krieg : (Hard to translate in English) Attaque-Éclair
Luftwaffe : Air Force
Gestapo : (No translation needed.)
Juden : Jew
Senfgas : Mustard Gas
Gaszimmer : Gas Chamber


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 11, 2004)

Blitz-Krieg - Lightning war 

thanks  now I can make people look like tiny insignificant specs


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 11, 2004)

I'm only the Newb here, so I'll be brief.

Should the Queen apologize to Germany? *No goddamn way!!*
The world is too effin' touchy feely these days as it is, with all of this "politically correct" bull! Everyone here knows it's bull, and I can just imagine what the British public must think of it!
Christ, whats next?


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

And god knows why they want us to apologise, it's the friggin nazi's fault.


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## Medvedya (Nov 12, 2004)

Maestro said:


> You forgot :
> 
> Schultz-Staffel (SS) : (No translation needed.)
> Kriegs Marine : (War) Navy
> ...



Gestapo is a shorted version of Geheim Stats Polizei 

Like Zyklon-B, which is shorthand for Cyanide, Chlorine, and Nitrogen - thats what they used in the camps, not mustard gas. Hydrocyanic acid, very nasty stuff.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

Chlorine is weak....they should have used Fluorine


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## Medvedya (Nov 12, 2004)

Maybe, just don't make an experiment with your idea - Darwin Awards approaching!


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

Thats a great concept...You read the one about the Texan guy who tried to extract to explosives from a grenade for fireworks...

...using a chainsaw?


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## Medvedya (Nov 12, 2004)

As you do.  


How long did it take to shovel all the bits of him into a black bin liner?


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

No idea, I think finding the bits would have been harder though


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## Medvedya (Nov 12, 2004)

Scattered over a 100 metre radius in all directions I'm guessing?


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

Either that or the pieces were so small they dissolved into the air


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## Medvedya (Nov 12, 2004)

Boy, that's dead. Folk don't come much deader than that.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)




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## Medvedya (Nov 12, 2004)

Having said that, I know of a guy with access to an industrial centrifuge, who was thinking of putting a mouse in it, and ramping it up to 2 million R.P.M, which, he confidently predicted, would tear the creature apart down to its molecular atoms leaving some fur and a puddle of plasma.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)




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## Medvedya (Nov 12, 2004)

He didn't do it.

A: It seemed a bit cruel in the cold light of day.
B: It would make a real mess, which he would then have to clean.

But, as a concept, quite interesting......


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

Indeed  

Take a look at this story on the darwin awards website I just found:



> Loving your shotgun
> 
> 2004 Reader Submission
> Pending Acceptance
> ...


www.darwinawards.com


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## Medvedya (Nov 12, 2004)

Oh - not nice. Stories like that....

Have you heard about the guy in Scotland who tried to wack off using a honeydew melon? 

He decided, to give it that 'full real' sensation, to warm it up in the microwave first, before carving out a hole to fit the wee fella into. 

Except he overlooked one thing. The melon cooked from the inside out, so the middle was roasting hot.  

You could hear the scream as far away as Kirkwall it was said, and he had a humiliating, not to mention uncomfortable two week stay in hospital for 2nd degree burns.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

Heres a better one:



> The Post Office Raid (Not)
> 
> 2004 Reader Submission
> Pending Acceptance
> ...



www.darwinawards.com


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

Medvedya said:


> Oh - not nice. Stories like that....
> 
> Have you heard about the guy in Scotland who tried to wack off using a honeydew melon?
> 
> ...



Heard that before, damn funny


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## Medvedya (Nov 12, 2004)

What a trio of muppets!


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

Sounds like the sort of robbery id try and commit


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 12, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> Man jailed after shooting his testicles Tue 13 July, 2004 19:28
> 
> LONDON (Reuters) - A British man who accidentally shot himself in the testicles after drinking 15 pints of beer has been jailed for five years for possessing an illegal firearm, a court spokesman says.



   Oh Puh-leez, that has _got_ to be punishment enough!


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

Extremely valid point  

Well at least the other prisoners wont have to worry about picking up the soap in front of him


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## Medvedya (Nov 12, 2004)

Hey Gringo! Now we going to play the game of Mummies and Daddies! As it's your first day here, you can choose - Mummy or Daddy?


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)




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## Medvedya (Nov 12, 2004)

I'm guessing that you know the rest!


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

Dont assume too quickly


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 12, 2004)

Medvedya said:


> I'm guessing that you know the rest!



Ooooooooo! Tell me! Tell me!


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## Medvedya (Nov 12, 2004)

Ask Space


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

What makes you think he's gonna know?


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## Medvedya (Nov 12, 2004)

Just a hunch.....


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

Bah, makes sense 

May god help us all if he does decide to explain....


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## Medvedya (Nov 12, 2004)

Oh, he probably will.....


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

Oh well, it'll be interesting to hear his theory on the concept of sex


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## GermansRGeniuses (Nov 12, 2004)

"The man puts his hoo-hoo-dilly in the woman's cha-cha!"


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 12, 2004)

You sure?


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## HealzDevo (Nov 12, 2004)

I'm sorry. I'll state this plainly for those of you that couldn't follow my well-reasoned arguments as stated out there. I am against Britain apologizing and as said I was considering that there was a danger that Germany could continue as a threat. Germany was already re-equipping and holding its own against the Soviets until Winter. It can be said that the bombing raids may have been the reason for the lack of winter cloths and that reaching the German Troops in the Soviet campaign perhaps. Therefore, maybe indirectly the bombing raids did do a great deal of good. I am saying that the only thing the Americans and the British did wrong during the European WW2 was letting the Soviets take Berlin, when they should have done it themselves. Therefore the bombing raids weren't wrong.


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## Medvedya (Nov 12, 2004)

But nobody disagreed on this issue.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 12, 2004)

Darwin Awards are for stories about people removing themselves from the Gene Pool.... Like blowing off ur Balls with a shotgun....


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## GermansRGeniuses (Nov 12, 2004)

What the hell are the Darwin Awards?!


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## lesofprimus (Nov 12, 2004)

See my above post.....


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## Maestro (Nov 12, 2004)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> What the hell are the Darwin Awards?!



You surely know Charles Darwin ? He is the "creator" of several theories like the one saying that Human descent from monkeys.

An other of his theories was the "Natural Selection". In short, that theory was saying that the worst "units" of a race couldn't survive by themselves, so that way, the best lived and the race was getting better from generations to generations.

The Darwin Awards are for the ones who killed themselves by doing stupid acts.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Nov 13, 2004)

I knew who he was, just not what the awards were...


*EDIT*~Actually, for a while, his autobiography was staring me in the face from our class library...


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## Medvedya (Nov 13, 2004)

http://www.darwinawards.com/

This is one of my favourites.....

The Arizona Highway Patrol were mystified when they came upon a pile of smoldering wreckage embedded in the side of a cliff rising above the road at the apex of a curve. The metal debris resembled the site of an airplane crash, but it turned out to be the vaporized remains of an automobile. The make of the vehicle was unidentifiable at the scene. 

The folks in the lab finally figured out what it was, and pieced together the events that led up to its demise. 

It seems that a former Air Force sergeant had somehow got hold of a JATO (Jet Assisted Take-Off) unit. JATO units are solid fuel rockets used to give heavy military transport airplanes an extra push for take-off from short airfields. 

Dried desert lakebeds are the location of choice for breaking the world ground vehicle speed record. The sergeant took the JATO unit into the Arizona desert and found a long, straight stretch of road. He attached the JATO unit to his car, jumped in, accelerated to a high speed, and fired off the rocket. 

The facts, as best as could be determined, are as follows: 

The operator was driving a 1967 Chevy Impala. He ignited the JATO unit approximately 3.9 miles from the crash site. This was established by the location of a prominently scorched and melted strip of asphalt. The vehicle quickly reached a speed of between 250 and 300 mph and continued at that speed, under full power, for an additional 20-25 seconds. The soon-to-be pilot experienced G-forces usually reserved for dog-fighting F-14 jocks under full afterburners. 

The Chevy remained on the straight highway for approximately 2.6 miles (15-20 seconds) before the driver applied the brakes, completely melting them, blowing the tires, and leaving thick rubber marks on the road surface. The vehicle then became airborne for an additional 1.3 miles, impacted the cliff face at a height of 125 feet, and left a blackened crater 3 feet deep in the rock. 

Most of the driver's remains were not recovered; however, small fragments of bone, teeth, and hair were extracted from the crater, and fingernail and bone shards were removed from a piece of debris believed to be a portion of the steering wheel. 

Ironically a still-legible bumper sticker was found, reading 
"How do you like my driving? Dial 1-800-EAT-SHIT."


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 15, 2004)

I think he ate more than shit! 

Do you think he _realized_ how stupid that was, before he hit?


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 15, 2004)

_That's_ the kinda way I wanna die


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 15, 2004)

What, fast and stupid?


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 16, 2004)

Yup  But the stupid part goes without saying


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## rebel8303 (Nov 21, 2004)

I really think that the post is out of subject and I'd like to say my opinion.
First of all I agree that the Queen should not apologize for anything.

But..
We can not ease our selves by saying (as I read somewhere in the topic that the Germans could move forces in their cities from where they would eliminate England etc etc.
Moreover we must see what have led Germany to conduct both world wars.
As far world war 2 is concerned it is obvious that Germany had been knocked out of anything that had to do with progress in any domain.
Anyway, the Germans provoked great damage and they cannot demand apologies from anyone
but there are other countries that provoked much damage as well but have the advantage not to have faced the defeat yet so to face punishment as well.
Both England and US have commited many war crimes but noone will say anything against them. After all they won ww2, only to start the cold war and steal the victory of the Russian hands...

Isn't bombing Afganistan and Irak a crime??
But US is a great nation yet...

But there will be a time that it will fall too as every superpower from the begining of time does. Ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, Roman Empire Byzantine Empire, later the European powers that rised only to fall again, the soviet union, the US...
If there is a rise then they 'll be a fall
Just like flying an airplane


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## GermansRGeniuses (Nov 21, 2004)

lesofprimus said:


> See my above post.....




What I meant, was "what do you do to win or compete?".


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## HealzDevo (Nov 21, 2004)

The Cold War was not really Britain and America's fault. It was forced on the US and Britain by the Soviets. The Soviets started the actions that led to tension. I really think Rebel you might want to do a bit of study into the actions of the Soviet Union just after WW2 to understand. The British and Americans were only reacting to a situation in which they had another nation with a fanatic in control, Joseph Stalin. At that time, don't forget that they had fought against Hitler and now it seemed that Hitler might be replaced by an even more dangerous foe, the Soviet Union. Germany was always crippled by manpower problems, however the Soviet Union doesn't have that real problem and as well, Soviet Industry was really gearing up and reaping the benefits of captured German technology. Most of the post-war Migs including the famous Mig-15 were based on this technology. The USSR was yelling out threatening slogans and invading other countries. It was only by the narrowist margins that the Soviet Union through its own actions didn't bring the thing into being a hot war. After all as late as the 1950s-1960s, the Soviet Union was still making threatening gestures such as pointing nuclear missiles at the US from Cuba. For the US and Britain, the Soviet Union was holding an assault rifle firmly aimed loaded at them. What would have been said if they hadn't acted? The Soviet Union would have grown bolder and bolder through their inaction. Hitler grew powerful through appeasement. The Soviet Union was already potentially powerful and therefore the US and Britain had to make the steps that potentially stopped the USSR growing. It is because of these steps perhaps that the USSR was potentially structurally weakened until it collapsed in 1991. The USSR couldn't beat Britain and America. It really wanted to though, because it saw Democracy as a threat. Communism is an attempt at mind-control and therefore it fails where the people are educated unless there is no other models of government that people can view. This is what the Soviet Union was trying to do, get rid of the competing forms of government. Had it of succeeded, I don't think Rebel would be typing in this forum in Germany today. Computers and the Internet and everything would have been highly regulated and controlled. There would be brutal prisons, where you would be taken if you even dared to look at one of the authorities in a way they didn't like. Communism rules by fear and censorship. As such it was weakened when it was realised that there was no way it would get any further with its present policies. Therefore Rebel, you are perhaps not considering the full situation in the context of history and what had just happened. This is the only way we can make balanced judgements on history when we are looking back. To view them in context of what had just preceded the event, the percieved dangers of action or non-action in the minds of those parties, the actions of both parties in this case. Therefore your judgement shows a little bit of naivety in the fact that both times the US and Britain were dragged into the conflict by the actions of a party that was viciously inconsiderate of human life. I was just saying that it could be a possibility that Germany would do that if it realised it had no chance of keeping its regular facilities unbombed. Also nothing brings home the reality of defeat so well as a bombing raid. Germany was already gearing up for 1946 at the time and therefore was intent on dragging out the conflict as long as possible. Anyway, I think you fail to understand things fully, Hitler and Gobbels were quite skilled in propoganda and thus the city bombing really did weaken their grip on power. It was showing the cracks that had appeared in the Nazi Machine opening into full-blown leaks. Also it forced the Germans to concentrate production on fighters and anti-aircraft guns so that there was a shortage of equipment for the Russian campagin for the Germans. Therefore the bombing raids were one of the reasons, I think Germany was eventually defeated, as German production was occuppied with things other than equipping her front-line troops. As far as your assumption that Germany was knocked out of anything that resembled progress, this is fantasy to think that Germany still wasn't dangereous. Germany still had a lot of her factories, and therefore it could still manufacture the equipment it needed to menace the Allied Bombers, the fact that production was still going on at all was a menance that couldn't be ignored. The enemy had to be weakened one way or another and that was the only real weakness that could be seen. Sometimes it is better to achieve a victory over a rival that plays unfairly like Hitler did, or the Soviet Union, than to lose fairly and be submitted to the horror of one of these regimes. I don't know what part of Germany you are from Rebel, but I suggest you might need to get out and start talking to the survivors of camps such as Aushwitz (Not sure how to spell it), to some survivors if you can find any of Stalin's labour camps to understand what these people had in mind. These people weren't interested in fair play and therefore to beat these ones sometimes unfortantly the rules have to be set aside for the good of all humanity.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 22, 2004)

I dont really think that news is true. I have lived in Germany most of my life and have never heard of something that outragious. The Germans understand that Nazi Germany was a dark time in there history and would rather move on and not drag it out in modern day grudges. I think it is just hard to believe what you read on the internet or the news.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 22, 2004)

Oh and rebel8303 I dont really think you can say that bombing Iraq was wrong. Take it from someone who is here in Iraq at the time. You do not know what was going on over here, all you see is what is in the news. Saddam needed to go. I have seen first hand the attrocities that he has commited, seen the mass graves and how the money was used only to build a military. Go to Baghdad and you can see this grand palace that looks like it could have been built for Koenig Ludwig II and all around houses made out of cardboard and children playing in there own feces in the streets. The man had to go. Take this from a German serving in the United States Army and serving proudly.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 22, 2004)

And I dont see the great nations of today like the US, Britain, and yes even modern Germany falling. And again I have to say this for the US again when there is a huge earthquake in China who is the first to offer help the US, the earthquake in Iran even with the relationship problems between the US and Iran did the US offer help? Yes. If there is any nation that is in need of help the US always offers help. But when the US in need of help they all turn there back, and the US always comes out on top again. I think the British for there support of the US, you are great people and I hope the friendship lasts forever. As for the friendship between the Germans and the US, I hope it can be repaired It has been a great friendship over the last 30 years and should not go away.


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## HealzDevo (Nov 22, 2004)

Don't forget when talking about Britain and the US to talk about Australia and the US as well. We have contributed to a lot of the actions of the US. In Afganistan and Iraq we deployed our highly trained SAS soldiers to help as well as other soldiers. Australia's SAS were singled out for praise by the US Commanders for their service in Afganistan. Therefore we are one of those natures that stands with the US, although and no offense to any Asian neighbours, but with our borders it is in our interests to maintain those relations. The peace protestors must have been hoping for a repeat of 1991. Luckily they didn't get what they wanted... Sadam had shown a potential will to actively support Terrorists, he may even have been actively supporting certain terrorist cells within his country. We don't know as a lot of records have disappeared, although even in peace I think this would have happened. Those records may have been potentially embarrassing to Sadam. Afganistan was the Taliban who seemed to be showing support and tolerating bases of Ossauma Bin Ladin's (Not sure how you spell Osauma) group on their soil. In addition the Taliban were also engaged in the state sponsored group of poppies from which the drug opium comes!!! These two groups showed great problems for the world. Opium is an addictive drug and potentially can kill the user. It is more potent than tobbaco or alcohol at killing. Iraq was sending out a very confusing message, as a lot of evidence seemed to point to Iraq having these weapons. Even still there is doubt on how much had originally survived the first Gulf War. It could be that Sadam had secretly started up his weapons program again. He had the technology imported. All he needed was the raw material from a source that would remain quiet... They did find some things that seem to point to weapons of mass destruction being had by Iraq, but where the main cache or caches are still remains a mystery. There are tantalising accounts though from certain ones which were involved in Iraq's weapons program that it was just dormant and not entirely shut-down... No Sadam was waiting for the world to lose interest again just as they did the last time so he could get on with this process. They believe they found what may be a moving lab in the back of a truck. Sadam was playing a game of deceit on the world, and sooner or later, he may not have needed that deceit, because he would have had the real weapons in his possession. There are differences between the way the US used nuclear weapons to end WW2 with the Japanese; and the way Iraq could potentially use nuclear weapons if it got them. The decision to use nuclear weapons by the US in WW2 was a long-decision process, it wasn't a snap decision I don't think. There would have been a long process of going through and assessing the potential casualities from such a decision. Ultimately however, the US came to the decision that this was a lesser evil than Japan potentially building up again and again behind those walls of theirs. Iraq however, has in the past targeted the Kurds with biological weapons, admittedly the CIA gave them to him, but if this man used biological weapons against his own people, do you think he would debate too long before potentially using Nuclear Missiles from his nuclear bunker against Western targets? Probably not. This is a man who supports a Jihad against Western targets, where there are no zones, no rules of engagement, and no uniforms. All we can hope to do is ruin the lines of supply to these organisations and hope that would slow them down enough to acheive a victory.


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## MichaelHenley (Nov 23, 2004)

Aah! Attack of the BIIG Posts!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2004)

Very well said HealzDevo. And yes you are correct I did forget to mention other nations such as Australia. Please forgive me. I dont think many people realize how bad the situation in Iraq was.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 23, 2004)

MichaelHenley said:


> Aah! Attack of the BIIG Posts!



And here comes the migraine


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## germanace (Nov 23, 2004)

going back to stupid stuff read this

A man who was trying to shoot seven puppies was shot himself when one of the dogs made the .38-caliber revolver discharge, deputies said. Jerry Allen Bradford, 37, of Pensacola, was charged with felony animal cruelty, the Escambia County Sheriff's Office said Wednesday. Bradford was being treated at an undisclosed hospital for the gunshot wound to his wrist, said sheriff's Sgt. Ted Roy. Bradford said he decided to shoot the 3-month-old puppies in the head because he couldn't find another home for the shepherd-mix dogs, according to the sheriff's office. On Monday, he was holding two puppies, one in his arms and another in his left hand, when the dog in his hand wiggled and put its paw on the trigger, making the gun discharge, the sheriff's report said. The revolver and a rifle were seized from the home, deputies said. Deputies found three of the puppies in a shallow grave outside Bradford's home, Roy said. The other four appeared to be in good health and were taken by Escambia County Animal Control, which planned to make them available for adoption. "That should never have to happen," said Bruce Rova, director of the Escambia County Animal Shelter. "There are so many options people have. We'll try to find them a new home." 
On a side note: I heard this report on the radio, on the way home from work this morning. It stated that, the people at the shelter had dubbed the puppy that hit the trigger, as "Quick Paw McGraw" :=)


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## rebel8303 (Nov 23, 2004)

I didn't speak of cold war neether of what have many nations offered in the world. I think you all misunderstood me. I spoke of war penalties. I said that such penalties are "offered" only to the defeated sides. I mean that there is not always the good guy that wins a war.
Moreover I believe that every war is bad for any reason. I believe that there always exist an optional solution. (e.g. removing Saddam from Iraq )
I apologize if I sounded offensive in my last post.
DerAdlerIstGelandet I did not say that dictarship is a good thing.
HealzDevo I understand and have read about coldwar very well
No offense taken
(I'm not from Germany I just have chosen this flag because I love bf-109 and Fw-190 so forgive me)


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## lesofprimus (Nov 23, 2004)

And I think you're an absoulute Moron, not to mention a Collossal S c u m b a g....

Who in Jesus F u c k do u think u are to come here to this peaceful little place, with your Whiney Ass, Pacifistic, 13 Year Old views, and spout off your political opinions..... Talk about Aircraft of WWII if u wanna contribute something..... Not this crap.... I almost vomited while reading ur twisted and unfocused dribblings.....

Freakin Hippies.... I hate the whole lot of em.... This Idiots probably gay too.......


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## Maestro (Nov 23, 2004)

rebel8303 said:


> I believe that there always exist an optional solution. (e.g. removing Saddam from Iraq )



Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot ?

Do you really think that, you freak ? An optional solution to remove a _dictator_ from the country he is ruling ? There is A LONE way to remove a dictator : TO KILL HIM !

Do you really think that you could make Saddam leave Iraq by singing "Give Peace A Chance" ? God damn ! This guy tortured AND murdered thousands of civilans that he _suspected_ of treachery ! Do you really think that he would have left ? In this case, I'll have to agree with Les and say that you're a freaking moron.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 23, 2004)

Maestro said:


> There is A LONE way to remove a dictator : TO KILL HIM !



Bingo!  



Maestro said:


> Do you really think that you could make Saddam leave Iraq by singing "Give Peace A Chance" ? God damn !


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 24, 2004)

And I agree with what less and all of you said and that is the main reason that I believe being here in Iraq right now is not a waste of time. When I see the children finally getting things they deserve it puts a smile on my face and I know that it is good.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 24, 2004)

Now now children play nicely. I accept ho you feel on the subject (i feel the same) but it isnt necessary to shout abuse at someone for expressing their opinions - everyones entitled to one.


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## Hot Space (Nov 24, 2004)

Am I missing all the fun here  

Hot Space


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## HealzDevo (Nov 24, 2004)

The fact is Rebel I doubt in some cases there is an optional solution. Sadam would never go if the International community just told him to go. He has thumbed his nose at the International community before. It is sentiments such as that that allowed Hitler to grow strong. May you learn more before you express such pacifist sentiments. Sadam had to be gone before he did even more harm to his people. The longer he was in power the longer and deeper he hurt his people. The question is how long it will take Iraq to recover from his rule. With him still in power however there would be no chance of the country ever recovering. Oh, it will recover for the rich, but the real test of a regieme is how it treats those poor people and how many of them there are. Only a very small percentage of the population is getting a lot of the wealth. The food and money shipments that were meant to aid the people of Iraq were getting diverted. Sadam has total control and while a dictator has total control there is no other solution but to get rid of that dictator in the best way possible. In this case Sadam is merely in prision. He wasn't shot. This means that he has a long time to think about the crimes he has committed. These acts of Sadam's were sanctioned by the country. The country's police and military were involved. With the scope and scale of what has been uncovered, it would be naive to think that Sadam was just an innocent victim of some renegade police or military officers. This was widespread corruption of human rights!! Most people agree that Iraq is better off without Sadam. I just have difficulty accepting that with what you read that you doubt these steps were necessary. Evil flourishs where there is no one ready to step forward and tackle it. Once tackled and beaten in its own way it finds it hard to survive. This is what has happened. The US genuinely believes in other nations exercising truth and honesty, and respect in their dealings with other nations, and their citizens. Both Sadam's Iraq and the Soviet Union didn't exercise this and therefore that in addition to their actions is why they fell foul of the US. Don't forget Sadam appeared on TV soon after September 11 praising the highjackers!!! He was pleased that such an occurance happened!!! He and his potential hidden guerilla warfare fighters were happy it happened!!! I am assuming that Sadam expected to fall and therefore set up the guerilla fighters during the period at the start to harrass the US and destroy them with sneaky methods.


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## MichaelHenley (Nov 24, 2004)

I think that we ALL need to calm down here. Just because someone has Ideas different to the majorities is no reason to start swearing at them!


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## rebel8303 (Nov 24, 2004)

Damn I talked about an optional solution than war.
I'm not opposite to an assasination.


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## Medvedya (Nov 24, 2004)

If it had been possible, it would have been done.


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## rebel8303 (Nov 24, 2004)

Well in this case you're right


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## Medvedya (Nov 24, 2004)

Urm, that's the case in almost all conflict scenarios. 
Countries don't go to war for no reason - its expensive, ties up your resources, 
and if things go badly - for whatever reason, it will almost certantly finish a leaders political career. 
However, if there's no other way, a responsible leader won't shrink from it. 

It doesn't matter that no WMD's have been found - there were some ominious things going on, and you don't take chances with WMD's. Ever.
What Gulf War 2 has achived is a message to other pariah nations. Look how quickly Lybia have wanted to renew diplomatic ties again. 
And as for Iran and North Korea - well, they know what will happen if they don't take steps to placate the west. 

It's up to those leaders to decide if they want their statues pulled down. But one thing is clear, those regimes are living on borrowed time, one way on another. 
Which will be a good thing.


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## kiwimac (Nov 24, 2004)

Les Maestro,

Please deal in a civil manner with others. Rebel is certainly entitled to his opinion EVEN IF IT DISAGREES with yours. And leave the bigoted comments about Gays out of it too.

Let me be clear, anymore of this and I will lock this thread and issue warnings. got it?

Kiwimac


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## Anonymous (Nov 25, 2004)

evangilder said:


> The worst part is that they are demanding an apology from the Queen, but not the US President. Both the RAF and the USAAF pounded Dresden, RAF at night, AAF in the day. I guess they probably realize if they asked Bush for an apology, he would probably tell them to kiss his Texas ass. 8)



US daylight raids targeted industry. British night raids targeted the city in general, mostly with incendiaries. So the request being directed to the Brits but not to the USA makes sense.

Even so, it's a bunch of crap. The German's fire bombed London and almost every British city they could reach. They have no grounds to complain. The Japanese have a more legitimate argument about the US firebombing of their major cities.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Hot Space (Nov 25, 2004)

Yep, I agree. Look at what the Germans did to Coventry in November 1940. Almost wiped it off the map.

Hot Space


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## kiwimac (Nov 25, 2004)

Hey, HS, nice pic of Debbie Harry.

Kiwimac


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## Hot Space (Nov 25, 2004)

Thanks, m8 8) I've got about a 1,000 or so stored on Photobucket   

Hot Space


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## rebel8303 (Nov 25, 2004)

RG_Lunatic is right after all the Germans started the war


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 25, 2004)

I too do not believe that the Germans should demand an apology but also again I dont really think that they asked for one. All I am saying is dont believe everything you read.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 25, 2004)

kiwimac said:


> Les Maestro,
> 
> Please deal in a civil manner with others. Rebel is certainly entitled to his opinion EVEN IF IT DISAGREES with yours. And leave the bigoted comments about Gays out of it too.
> 
> ...



Dont think locking the thread is fair on others, issuing warnings will be enough 8)


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## Hot Space (Nov 25, 2004)

I know I'm a bit daft fellas, but no more of ze swear words here, please 8)

As far as it goes, it's nice to see such a heated conversation - I'm all for it 8) 

Hot Space


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## HealzDevo (Nov 25, 2004)

Please also remember that the Germans were given repeated warnings, as were the Russians on their actions. These parties chose to ignore those warnings. So for that matter did Sadam, one Gulf War and crippling sanctions to his country did nothing to encourage respect within him for the International Community. If anything they made him more bitter. Ultimately it would have good to have seen him removed in 1991, but as they say better late than never. He was using the International Community against itself, and manipulating it. It seems France is fully within the power of Sadam. Wonder whether the US and Britain should be investigating the French as they were the most vehmently opposed to the Iraq War this time. Maybe they have something to hide... A dirty secret perhaps...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 26, 2004)

I can tell you one thing. Most of the crates here on the old abandoned Iraqi Airfield where I am serving right now are written in French and have Paris written all over them. These crates contained Missles and other weapons. Weapons were strictly forbiden to be sold to Iraq under the UN sanctions but somehow they ended up in Iraq. I wonder how that is? I think the French were so much against the war because they did not want there arms dealing to be found out.


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## Anonymous (Nov 26, 2004)

My guess is that some German group, not the government, is asking for the apology. But they don't derserve it because of Germany's conduct during the war. Had Germany never fire bombed London or other British cities, never razed Polish and Russian cities and towns, never committed atrocities agains the Jews and other ethnic minorities, and in general conducted the war in a civilized manner, then they might have a leg to stand on. Since they didn't they don't.

As for Iraq, well there are a lot of issues here. I think we in the USA should be very upset about Bush's having taken us to war on the basis of the existance of WMD's when in fact there weren't any. But this does not mean we should not have sought regime change, just that the President should not decieve us about why he is doing something.

There is a lot of hippocracy in the whole war in Iraq and against Saddam. We supported him when he was using WMD's against the Iranians and we looked the other way when he used them against the Kurds. We gave him much of that technology because we didn't like Iran.

We didn't take down Saddam and try to occupy Iraq in the first gulf war for the reasons stated by Pres. Bush Sr. in a 1998 Time magazine interview:



> While we hoped that popular revolt or coup would topple Saddam, neither the U.S. nor the countries of the region wished to see the breakup of the Iraqi state. We were concerned about the long-term balance of power at the head of the Gulf. Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome. - Pres. Bush Sr.



In his book, "A World Transformed", he says pretty much the same thing, and points out that there was "no viable exit strategy".

As I see it, the problem with the war in Iraq is it assumes the Moslim's will want and support a Western style democracy. However this is in conflict with the teachings of Islam, which support either a relgious theocracy (ala Iran) or a religiously based tribal monarchy (ala Saudi Arabia). Islamic law is so constrictive it leaves little room for what we call "freedom".

For these reasons, I believe in the end, Iraq will degenerate into a civil war, if it has not already (that's an issue for debate). The country is too divided on to many basic issues, and there is too much wealth at stake.

The big problem is that if Iraq does degenerate into civil war, it is likely to spread to the other west friendly Arabian and Islamic states. It would not surprise me to see such a civil war touch off civil wars in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, possibly Jordan and other middle eastern contries, and maybe even re-ignite the war in Afghanistan. And a the same time, there is an effective civil war going on in Chechnya, the Ukrain is on the brink, and Russia has undergone a coup from the top with Putin reverting that country into a dictatorship. Civil war in these other places may lead to civil war in Russia.

This is a dangerous time.

=S=

Lunatic


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 26, 2004)

Well as for no WMD's have you watched the news. In Falludja they have found anthrax. Sadam did have WMD's, please trust me on this I have seen eneogh things over here that prove to me that he does however he had plenty of time to get it out to other countries like Syria. The border is so porus that you can not contain it all. Trust me he had the WMD's. As for Bush I think his greatest fault in this war is the fact that he has no exit strategy. We will be here for many years to come and in the 1 and half I have left in the army I expect to return to Iraq atleast one more time. As for the country breaking out in civil war it basically already has and I only see it getting worse. The area that I am in is predominatly sunni and they do not except the Sheites and they are constantly fighting and then north past the mountains near Turkey you have the Kurds who have there own official army and they want to reclaim Kurdistan. It is very volotile here right now at the moment and there is no end in site. Do I feel it was unjust? No I believe in what we are doing here.


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## Anonymous (Nov 26, 2004)

Getting back to the topic...

Here's a site that whines about the "terror bombing" used against Germany in WWII.

http://www.ety.com/HRP/rev/terrorbombing.htm

=S=

Lunatic


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## Anonymous (Nov 26, 2004)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Well as for no WMD's have you watched the news. In Falludja they have found anthrax. Sadam did have WMD's, please trust me on this I have seen eneogh things over here that prove to me that he does however he had plenty of time to get it out to other countries like Syria. The border is so porus that you can not contain it all. Trust me he had the WMD's. As for Bush I think his greatest fault in this war is the fact that he has no exit strategy. We will be here for many years to come and in the 1 and half I have left in the army I expect to return to Iraq atleast one more time. As for the country breaking out in civil war it basically already has and I only see it getting worse. The area that I am in is predominatly sunni and they do not except the Sheites and they are constantly fighting and then north past the mountains near Turkey you have the Kurds who have there own official army and they want to reclaim Kurdistan. It is very volotile here right now at the moment and there is no end in site. Do I feel it was unjust? No I believe in what we are doing here.



But Pres. Bush claimed there were 1000's of tons of chemical and bio weapons. This has pretty much been proven false.

It's not a matter of just or unjust really. The issue is what will the consquences be? If it does turn to civil war in Iraq that spreads to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and perhaps other countries as well, the cost will have been tremendous and nothing positive will have been accomplished.
Pres. Bush is playing a very dangerous game, and I fear he does not appreciate the mentality of the Moslims and the Islamic faith.

=S=

Lunatic


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 26, 2004)

I too am not really a Bush fan, hell I voted for Kerry, however I dont expect you to fully understand it unless you have experienced Iraq for yourself. And as for the 1000's of tons, please just trust me they were here. I have been to former chemical weapons factories here and seen what was going on for myself. As for the muslims I do not wish to offend anyone because I believe a man is made up what is in side of him and not what religion, race, or nationality the man is. However I do have to say something about the muslim and islamic faith, they demand that when you come to there country you have to be like them and you can practice your faith or way (now I know that is not all muslim or islamic countries) but when they come to other peoples countries they expect them to go out of there way to allow them to practice there ways. In some of these middle eastern countries you can not even think of building a christian church however when they tried to build a mosque in my mothers town in Germany and the city counsel denied them the building permit they screamed descrimination and nazi and threatened to protest violently. Ofcourse in the end the mosque was built and now at certain times of the day over loud speaker you hear muslim prayer blasting through the town. I think this is wrong and I am not saying that it is the peoples fault but as for the governments of these nations they too do not respect or appreciate our ways. I hope I did not offend anyone by this statement I was just making some observations.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 26, 2004)

Well you didn't offend me, because I happen to agree with you 100 percent.
Facts are facts. It's as simple as that.


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## kiwimac (Nov 26, 2004)

DerAdler,

Strange then that both the Un US weapons inspectors have said that Hussein had no WMD. Fact is, the US should never have gone into Iraq.

Kiwimac


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 27, 2004)

well it's good that the iraq is free from sadam...............


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## Anonymous (Nov 27, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> well it's good that the iraq is free from sadam...............



Agreed. The shame is that he was not removed back in the early-mid 80's.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

Also agreed.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 27, 2004)

I am sorry that you feel that way Kiwi but you know what you are entitled to that opinion because you are free and you have felt freedom your whole life. The Iraqis have never felt that freedom and now they can. There are now comedy stations on TV here in Iraq that they were never allowed to have, they can now go to any schools that they want, they can now sell what they want. The can now be free and when I see the children smile and I see these things, it makes me feel good and we did the right thing by coming here. And as for the WMD everyone knows that he had them and if you truely believe that he didn't then you are blind my friend. When you go and visit the ruins of the Kurdish village that he gassed and killed over 10,000 people then you would see that he was ruthless and would use gas again on other people if he could, he did not care about human life.


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## Anonymous (Nov 27, 2004)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I am sorry that you feel that way Kiwi but you know what you are entitled to that opinion because you are free and you have felt freedom your whole life. The Iraqis have never felt that freedom and now they can. There are now comedy stations on TV here in Iraq that they were never allowed to have, they can now go to any schools that they want, they can now sell what they want. The can now be free and when I see the children smile and I see these things, it makes me feel good and we did the right thing by coming here. And as for the WMD everyone knows that he had them and if you truely believe that he didn't then you are blind my friend. When you go and visit the ruins of the Kurdish village that he gassed and killed over 10,000 people then you would see that he was ruthless and would use gas again on other people if he could, he did not care about human life.



Chemical weapons have a shelf life, typically less than 10 years. None of what Saddam used on the Kurds was still viable in 2002.

I've worked side by side with Palastinian, Iranian, and Pakistani expat engineers. Probably the most enlightened of Moslims, and still my conclusion is that Islam and democracy are really oil and water. The Koran tells them how to rule, our idea of democracy is just not compatable. If we can establish democracy and freedom in Iraq it will take a full generation for it to take root. But I think this unlikely, I expect civil war within a year.

=S=

Lunatic


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 27, 2004)

I never said that the weapons he used on the Kurds were the same weapons he had today. All I said was that the man would have to heart ache about using them again on anyone. He had no heart or consious and he is going to burn in hell or werever they go to in there religion. I do agree on the civil war though, I expect that to happen it is a powder keg right now waiting to explode.


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## Anonymous (Nov 29, 2004)

OK GUYS,IF ANYONE IS THERE - im cute corporal(a chick that loves wwII stuff).now, i dont know too much about the details of all this, but i still form my basic opinion - the german soldiers were just carrying out orders - same as the english - we would demand apologies because they are germans bombing us - just as they do - there!matter simplified in two minutes!looking for youngish guys to talk to from this site (40 and under) about the second world war and various things related entirely to it.IM CUTE BUT I HAVE BRAINS SO TREAT ME WITH RESPECT - I ONLY WANT TO LEARN MORE!


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## Anonymous (Nov 29, 2004)

ps:CUTE CORPORAL WILL SOON BE PROPERLY LOGGED IN WITH EMAIL ADDRESS AT LARGE.


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## Anonymous (Nov 29, 2004)

cute corporal is officially logged on - hellllooooo boys!i want to find out about WWII (of course)especially uniform (german ss) and guns.do feel free to email and ill be back the same time later(or a different time)but anyway nice chatting and on second thoughts we should tell the germans to piss off with their apology request because WE won the fucking war!


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## Hot Space (Nov 29, 2004)

Hello CUTE CORPORAL and welcome to the Site 8) Anything you want to know we're the folk's to ask  

Hot Space


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 29, 2004)

Speak for yourself 

Welcome, Cute Coporal 8) Oh no, now there are TWO CC's on the site


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2004)

alrighty then


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## Anonymous (Nov 29, 2004)

Anonymous said:


> OK GUYS,IF ANYONE IS THERE - im cute corporal(a chick that loves wwII stuff).now, i dont know too much about the details of all this, but i still form my basic opinion - the german soldiers were just carrying out orders - same as the english - we would demand apologies because they are germans bombing us - just as they do - there!matter simplified in two minutes!looking for youngish guys to talk to from this site (40 and under) about the second world war and various things related entirely to it.IM CUTE BUT I HAVE BRAINS SO TREAT ME WITH RESPECT - I ONLY WANT TO LEARN MORE!



The "just carrying out orders" excuse does not wash. Soldiers have an obligation not to carry out illegal and immoral orders. Also, it is very clear the German people knew who and what Hitler was. They followed him anyway. They "looked the other way" when he robbed and murdered in the mid-late 30's. As long as they got their share of the booty they were all to happy to excuse Hitler's behavior and support him.

There are lessons here we in the USA seem to have forgotton. I hope the price we pay is not so high.

=S=

Lunatic


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 29, 2004)

Actually many people were scared of what he'd do to them if they refused so they just carried orders out for their own safety.
What you just typed fits the SS and Gestapo more.


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## Anonymous (Nov 29, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> Actually many people were scared of what he'd do to them if they refused so they just carried orders out for their own safety.
> What you just typed fits the SS and Gestapo more.



That was by the time the war started. In 1935-1939 the German people sat by and watched the Natzi's do evil things and did nothing.

It'd be like if we had a depression in the USA now, deciding to intern all the asians and hispanics and steal their property and re-distribute it to the whites. That is the kind of platform Hitler ran on.

It is not uncommon to hear German's (of the WW2 generation) say "we did not know", but this is pure BS. One only has to see film of any German city in 1937/38 to see the Jewish children litering the streets with no where to live because their parents had been interned, to realise they had to know. The German adults would step over them and refer to them as "gutter rats" as the proceeded to enter their new homes which used to be occupied by Jews.

Hitler was no more than a mafioso. The German people have to bear the responsibility for letting him rise to power.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 29, 2004)

Anonymous said:


> OK GUYS,IF ANYONE IS THERE - im cute corporal(a chick that loves wwII stuff).



 Uh-oh!
Someone hide the 'Lurrvley Ladies' thread! 

Welcome, Cute Corporal!


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 29, 2004)

8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 30, 2004)

Okay Lunatic I hate to say this but you really are talking a bunch of BS now. For the first thing I agree about the moral obligations of soldiers. There is no excuse for that. But I will tell you one thing right now and that is that a lot of Germans did not know what was going on. My Grandfather was one of them and you know I how tell because it was in his diary. My Grandfather was respected man and he never lied about anything. If you are calling my Grandfather a lier then you are lucky we are not talking face to face. As for the Germans not saying anything unless they got there "booty" as you called it, you are full of it. The German people never got anything, they never recieved anything. The Germans were just as scared of Hitler as anyone else. My Grandmother was a member of the German Red Cross and she has a steel plate in her head from being hit over the head by a SS soldier because she tried to feed the Untermenschen as they were called. So take your holier then thou attitude and your German bashing some where else. There I finally got it out of me, I am tired of hearing it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 30, 2004)

Hitler and his evil henchmen kept everything for themselves the Germans never saw any of this so called "booty" as mister genius RG_Lunatic likes to call it.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 30, 2004)

Yup, its all very well talking in hinesight Lunatic, but the way Hitler made it to power was very cleverly, the Germans didnt know what he was doing! You cant blame them!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 30, 2004)

Sure he can, Lunatic knows everything! But what he does not care to talk about is the problems in his own back yard and I think he doesn't even realize how bad they are because he thinks he lives in a perfect world.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 30, 2004)




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## Anonymous (Nov 30, 2004)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Okay Lunatic I hate to say this but you really are talking a bunch of BS now. For the first thing I agree about the moral obligations of soldiers. There is no excuse for that. But I will tell you one thing right now and that is that a lot of Germans did not know what was going on. My Grandfather was one of them and you know I how tell because it was in his diary. My Grandfather was respected man and he never lied about anything. If you are calling my Grandfather a lier then you are lucky we are not talking face to face. As for the Germans not saying anything unless they got there "booty" as you called it, you are full of it. The German people never got anything, they never recieved anything. The Germans were just as scared of Hitler as anyone else. My Grandmother was a member of the German Red Cross and she has a steel plate in her head from being hit over the head by a SS soldier because she tried to feed the Untermenschen as they were called. So take your holier then thou attitude and your German bashing some where else. There I finally got it out of me, I am tired of hearing it.



It depends where they lived. Rural Germans indeed had little idea what was going on. But the German's in most cities knew damn well. You have only to watch films of Berlin, Munich, or any other major city taken in 1937 to see. It was well documented.

When the Jews and other undesribles were displaced, this opened up opportunities for the "true" Germans, so they clearly did benefit. Most German's supported Hitler's rise to power, you are making it sound like he was not a popular leader. His rise to power was largely based on telling the "true" German's that they were superior and that the Jew's had conspired against them during and after WWI, denying them their rightful place in the world.

Hitler's Germany was paid for with booty for the German people. This is an undeniable fact. Why did Germany go to war in 1939, contrary to "the plan" which was to go to war in 1942? Why did Hjalmar Schacht fall out of power?

The answer is that Schacht wanted to follow the plan, and wait until 1942 to goto war, but this required backing off the munitions buildup which would doom the German economy to hyper-inflation by summer '40. Hitler chose to take the country to war two years early rather than back off such production, because backing off would have meant the standard of living of the average German would stop rising and maybe fall a little, something he feared would weaken the Nazi party's hold on the German public. The choice was back off on arms production and government buying in general in 1938 or goto war no later than very early 1940. Hitler chose war.

That fact is the standard of living for the average German rose from the moment Hitler came to power. Initially this was done by ingoring the terms of the treaty of Versailles, stopping the payment of reperations debt, and ramping up various industries through government purchasing. When this began to flatten out, the continued growth of the standard of living was perpetuated by stealing property, businesses, and jobs of the Jews (and other minorities), which bought them another 2-3 years. Finally, when nothing else could continue the improvements of the standard of living, Hitler took the country to war. 

The fact that the average German was benefiting from Nazi policies is proven by the fact that standard of living of the average German was still on the rise until 1944! A big reason why Germany lost WWII was because they failed to enter a "war economy" until mid-44 (defined as 90% of the economy devoted to the war effort). In 1943 only about 60% of the German economy was devoted to the war effort, where by the end of 1942 90% of the US economy was so focused.

Sure the hard core Nazi's were benefiting the most, but their power was based upon bribing the average German to look the other way and allow the Nazi's to do whatever they wished as long as they got their share. That's just the facts. So when you say, "The German people never got anything, they never recieved anything.", that's just not true.

And when you say, "The Germans were just as scared of Hitler as anyone else.", that's not true either, the average German loved Hitler. Fear of the Gestapo and the SS did not reach the average German until the the war started going hopelessly badly for Germany in about mid-44.

Now, all that being said, I certainly do not hate the German people for this, it's in the past. But it is simply not true that the average German had no idea what was going on. In the beginning they simply chose not to acknowlege what was happening, for selfish reasons. Later, you are right, it was too late for them to do anything about it even if they wanted to (but that was pretty much after 1938).

Finally, remember that we in the USA have our own shame to live down in how we treated native Americans, especially in the late 19th century. Again it was the same thing, as long as the "people" were benefiting, they didn't want to know the details.

Do you realize that most Germans (at least in the 80's) have no idea there was a holocaust in which over 6 million Jews were exterminated?

Do you realize that even today, the Japanese generally believe that "Japan was a not very agressive nation in WWII that was conquered by the USA"?

Denying history or choosing not to know simply makes it more likely to happen again.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Anonymous (Nov 30, 2004)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Sure he can, Lunatic knows everything! But what he does not care to talk about is the problems in his own back yard and I think he doesn't even realize how bad they are because he thinks he lives in a perfect world.



That is hardly true. I'm very concerned about the direction this country is taking. We are one or two 911's away from fascism, maybe less. The Patriot act is the biggest affront to American democracy in our history. But that is another topic.

I know a lot about WWII because I've studied it in great depth. One of my fields of study in college was economics, in particular the economics of war, and most specifically the economics of WWII.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Anonymous (Nov 30, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> Yup, its all very well talking in hinesight Lunatic, but the way Hitler made it to power was very cleverly, the Germans didnt know what he was doing! You cant blame them!



Are you saying they could not look out their windows and see their Jewish neighbors being forced to leave their homes with only what they could carry? That they did not see Jewish children in the streets after their parents had been interned? That they did not see the trains passing by packed with Jews like cattle? That they could not smell the stench of the camps and later the deathmills? That they did not turn in Jews to the authorities simply for being Jews?

Cheddar, they did know. They just chose not to see, but they knew full well what was happening.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 30, 2004)

Yeah but he didnt do that until he was chancellor and until President Hindenberg died, otherwise the laws would never have been passed. By the time he was in power it was way too late for the Germans to do anything, the reason they didnt try is cos they were scared, they did what they were told or they faced the consequences...


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 30, 2004)

And I meant they didnt know what he was going to do when he got into power, Germany was in the slumps in he 30's, he seemed to offer them a way out but didnt tell them how he was gonna get em out...

And the Big death camps like Auschwitz didnt come about until 1942. Up until then the killings were less brutal than that. For about 4 years they were just treated like shit, then they started being killed every now and then, then Kristallnacht was where it all kicked off (1938 I think, youll have to check the date). Then they were put into slave camps were the Nazis figured they would be worked to death, befor the "Final solution" in 1942.


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## Anonymous (Nov 30, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> Yeah but he didnt do that until he was chancellor and until President Hindenberg died, otherwise the laws would never have been passed. By the time he was in power it was way too late for the Germans to do anything, the reason they didnt try is cos they were scared, they did what they were told or they faced the consequences...



Cheddar you need to do some study on this. Hitler was a very popular leader. Most of the German people followed him very willingly. When Hitler assumed power in 1934 the Nazi party represented a tiny fraction of the German people. Most of the people supported them, or they'd never have been able to act the way they did.

The fact is the bulk of the people were not willing to do the dirty work, but they certainly supported it. The general populous did not become "scared" of Hitler's goons until well into WWII.


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## Anonymous (Nov 30, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> And I meant they didnt know what he was going to do when he got into power, Germany was in the slumps in he 30's, he seemed to offer them a way out but didnt tell them how he was gonna get em out...



I disagree. It was very clear in 1936 and 1937 that Hitler was at the very least going to steal all Jewish properties and deport them. The German people were generally supportive of this, and they really just didn't care and didn't want to know what was being done with them.

Again, look at the film evidence of German cities in 1937, which were filled with Jewish children who's parents had been rounded up. The German people's complaint was not "what happened to the parents", it was "I cannot walk down the street w/o having to step over jewish urchins".


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 30, 2004)

NO.

The only reason they supported him is because Germany was going through a time of great depression (much like the rest of the world). He appeard to offer them a way out - they support him. When they get wind of what he was really up to, they start disliking him - however it was too late to do anyhing about it, anyone who opposed them would face the Gestapo. I think you're getting confused with what the German people THOUGHT and what they APPEARED TO THINK. Most of the German population knew very well what was going on by about 1936/37.


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## Anonymous (Nov 30, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> NO.
> 
> The only reason they supported him is because Germany was going through a time of great depression (much like the rest of the world). He appeard to offer them a way out - they support him. When they get wind of what he was really up to, they start disliking him - however it was too late to do anyhing about it, anyone who opposed them would face the Gestapo. I think you're getting confused with what the German people THOUGHT and what they APPEARED TO THINK. Most of the German population knew very well what was going on by about 1936/37.



Again, Hitler was a very popular leader, right up to and through the first 3-4 years of WWII. Most of the German people simply loved him. Most still believed in and supported him right until 1945.

Why do you think they didn't? Because, after the war was over they say they didn't like him but couldn't do anything about it? The historic evidence is quite to the contrary.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 30, 2004)

I agree, Hitler was very popular.
The ultimate consequences of world war and attempted genocide were, _to say the very least_, unfortunate. But to the German citizenry of the 1930's, he was something of a hero. He restored German pride by putting the people back to work, thus restoring the economy and a sense of national purpose.
Although his rearmament policies were in blatant violation of the Treaty of Versailles, this hardly mattered to the population of a broken, humiliated Germany. He rebuilt a powerful armed forces and strongly promoted nationalism.
Remember also that the political views promoted by the National Socialist Party were, throughout the 1920's and 30's, not unpopular throughout much of Europe. Germany was, following it's defeat in the Great War, ripe for the seeds of National Socialism.

Whether or not the German people remained as committed after the early 1940's perhaps remains for some debate, but to the population of the 1930's he was indeed welcomed in Germany.


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## HealzDevo (Nov 30, 2004)

I think you are being a little unfair on the population of Germany. They had a master pyschologist for a leader, who knew exactly how to manipulate people. By 1935-1939, Hitler had already gathered too much power. He had started gathering his power in 1925 for Goodness Sake. People may not have been entirely aware of what Hitler was up to, because of his ability to brainwash people with his speach. Someone was saying that Hitler could talk a women to an orgaism for goodness sakes. If he can do that, how much easier to sway people's emotions in an uncertain time. It would be interesting to know how many Germans were killed during the period from 1935-1939 and throughout WW2 for opposing Hitler. I'm sure there would have been quite a few secret trials of these people. We don't have the complete records of this period however due to burning of records as the Soviets moved in on Berlin. Therefore this period of history is an unanswered question as to how many died in the early part of Hitler's regime. As for later on during WW2, there was encouragement of children joining the Hitler Youth Brigade and informing on their parents!!! Does this sound like the sort of environment that people would speak openly in? I don't think so. Also you have to remember that there were various attempts on Hitler's life by German people. Unfortunately he survived those attempts, but it shows just how worried some of the German population were about his leadership. I refer to the Bomb at the headquarters plot which involved Rommel, the Desert Fox. He ended up being killed by the Gestapo.


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## Anonymous (Nov 30, 2004)

If we accept that then we basically are saying that the people are not reponsible for the actions of those who they put in power. That is a dangerous philosopy, and I hope we in the USA don't have to learn that lesson the hard way.

My point is the German people knew what Hitler was about from the start. He was preaching hatred and prejidice from the beginning. He was talking about "the chosen people" and "Germanic destiny". Yes the people of Germany wanted to have their pride restored, but you don't do that by putting a criminal in charge, and if you do you have to bear the responsiblity for the results. At the very least, you have to live with the shame of it.


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## Maestro (Dec 1, 2004)

You're right on that point, Lunatic. Germany knew what Hitler was on about. I saw a movie (divided in 2 x 2 hours parts) about his life. When he first enlisted in the German National Party (later renamed Nazi Party when he became its leader), he suggested to the party's leader to include the "Extermination of the Jews" into the party's politic.

When he became the leader of the Nazi Party, he created the SA unit (who then became the SS) who were in charge of propaganda and striking Jewish schools, shops, factories...

How did he got elected ? He burned the Reichtag and accused the Communists of doing it.

The weirdest thig about his life was that his OWN mother was Jewess.


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## HealzDevo (Dec 1, 2004)

Did they? Do you really think the German people had a full picture of what was going on? I am not excusing the people entirely, but they probably thought Hitler was just exporting the Jews elsewhere. Most people in Germany even up until after 1945 would have scoffed and told you not to be ridiculous if you had told them about the concentration camps. Even today there are those people that are misguidely believing that there was no holocaust of the Jews in Europe. This belief may be based on the public statements Hitler made where he never referred to what happened to the Jews and such after they were rounded up. What I am saying is that if you listen to a lot of Hitler's speeches they are full of difficult to understand retorical statements. To the ordinary people what would have stood out of those speeches would be his passion. Also, with Communist actions of the period in various countries and even up until 1991, the German people couldn't really be blamed for believing the idea that it was the Communists. The Communists did a lot of bombing and plotting in various places to take over the governments. They plotted with Germany to take over half of Poland and then got the other half in 1945-1946. Just look at the actions of the Afganistan war by the Soviet Union and you will see why it wasn't unreasonable to blame the Communists for it. Hitler knew what the Communists were doing elsewhere and so he took advantage of that. It's easy to look back and say that that bombing wasn't done by the Communists but at that time people were going on the facts such as they were at that time. The German people couldn't do anything once he was in power and they realised their mistake, they were trapped. Don't you think they tried to get rid of him? Afterall there were bombs planted by conspirators and the like, but he seemed to be unable to be killed. Its easy to look back with the benefit of hindsight and say that a certain leader should never had been elected, but those German people had to vote based on the information they had at that time which is considerably less than we have today about Hitler and his plans. That is the scary part, that there was a real lack of information which led to him getting elected. The results have been talked about on this forum. There were attempted poisons, sniping at him, and even an attempted bomb at his headquarters but he survived.


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## Anonymous (Dec 1, 2004)

HealzDevo said:


> Did they? Do you really think the German people had a full picture of what was going on? I am not excusing the people entirely, but they probably thought Hitler was just exporting the Jews elsewhere.



As if robbing them of their property and deporting them were okay?



HealzDevo said:


> Most people in Germany even up until after 1945 would have scoffed and told you not to be ridiculous if you had told them about the concentration camps.



Yes, and these people often lived within visual distance of a camp. They could smell the stench from the camp when the wind blew toward them. They could see trains full of Jews going in, but only empty trains comming out. The only reason they "didn't know" was because they didn't want to know. But really, they knew and just didn't care.



HealzDevo said:


> Even today there are those people that are misguidely believing that there was no holocaust of the Jews in Europe.



Yes. It is easier for them to deny it than to admit it.



HealzDevo said:


> The German people couldn't do anything once he was in power and they realised their mistake, they were trapped. Don't you think they tried to get rid of him?



No, the people believed in Hitler and supported him until the very last month or so of WWII.



HealzDevo said:


> Afterall there were bombs planted by conspirators and the like, but he seemed to be unable to be killed.



These attempts on Hitler's life were carried out by the military, not the citizenry. It was not a mass effort, it was a conspiracy by a few who really knew the state of Germany and Hitler's mental status.



HealzDevo said:


> Its easy to look back with the benefit of hindsight and say that a certain leader should never had been elected, but those German people had to vote based on the information they had at that time which is considerably less than we have today about Hitler and his plans. That is the scary part, that there was a real lack of information which led to him getting elected. The results have been talked about on this forum. There were attempted poisons, sniping at him, and even an attempted bomb at his headquarters but he survived.



For all of that, it was always apparent that Hitler's intent was to rob and/or kill the Jews, gypsies, and other "impure" races. It was abundantly clear that Hitler believed in using violence against his opposition at virtually every level. And only a fool could not see that Hitler was intent on taking Germany to war (but admittedly there were a lot of fools). He made promises that the German people wanted to hear, and they didn't ask or want the details on how these promises would be fulfilled. But they knew it was going to be done by taking from others and giving to them.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Crazy (Dec 1, 2004)

> As if robbing them of their property and deporting them were okay?



We're talking about an entire populace. They may have known, but what could they do about it? No average German just trying to eek a living is going to try to change government policy, and it would be even more impossible to get the protest organized enough to change anything. They didn't have a means to change anything, and it's pretty hard to say whether they would have or not.



> Yes, and these people often lived within visual distance of a camp. They could smell the stench from the camp when the wind blew toward them. They could see trains full of Jews going in, but only empty trains comming out. The only reason they "didn't know" was because they didn't want to know. But really, they knew and just didn't care.



Once again, we're talking about an entire populace. They ALL lived near concentration camps? They camps were spread throughout all of Germany's new lands, not just in the original country itself. So, let's say there are 9 camps in original Germany. One, they weren't built in the middle of Berlin. They were fairly secluded. I'm willing to bet that no more than 4,000, 5,000 at most, people lived and worked near camps. That's not a large number.



> Yes. It is easier for them to deny it than to admit it.



I know several Germans, and none are so deluded as this. Radicals don't indicate the mindset of the whole. Most Germans would rather forget the dark history, but not deny it.



> No, the people believed in Hitler and supported him until the very last month or so of WWII.



Perhaps this is because they truly didn't know what horrors Hitler was commiting. Until the camps were discovered and publicized. I'm willing to bet that after people accepted the truth of the camps, they lost faith in Hitler. Or at least most would have.




> He made promises that the German people wanted to hear, and they didn't ask or want the details on how these promises would be fulfilled. But they knew it was going to be done by taking from others and giving to them.



While this is somewhat true, why are the Germans exclusively guilty of that? Most nations in WW2, at one point or another, told their people what they wanted to hear. And you don't tell everyone your plan if you intend to go to war, period. It's not aa diabolical scheme. It's just good security.


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## Anonymous (Dec 2, 2004)

I'll try to address the whole of your statements in a later post.

However, right now I'll just point out that DACHAU is less than 10 miles from Munich, and the Sachsenhausen camp was very near Berlin, hardly the remote location you suggest. The following map shows the major concentration camps, but their were hundreds of such camps all about Germany. You cannot keep something on that kind of scale much of a secret!






http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/holocamp.html <--- excellent site on the holocaust

Take a look for yourself, many of these camps were so close to major cities there is no way you can argue they were well hidden or remote from the German people.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Crazy (Dec 2, 2004)

I'd like to point out that most of the camps were concentration, not extermanation, not even concentration/extermination. Which meant that for the most part, mass genocide occured in camps like Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno, and Belzec, all of which were outside of original German territory, in former Poland.

The Germans knew that Jews and other minorities were being placed into special camps. But most of the killing was being done away from prying eyes, mostly outside of Germany


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## Anonymous (Dec 2, 2004)

Crazy said:


> I'd like to point out that most of the camps were concentration, not extermanation, not even concentration/extermination. Which meant that for the most part, mass genocide occured in camps like Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno, and Belzec, all of which were outside of original German territory, in former Poland.
> 
> The Germans knew that Jews and other minorities were being placed into special camps. But most of the killing was being done away from prying eyes, mostly outside of Germany



Death rates in concentration camps were increadibly high. So high that disposal of the bodies was a serious problem and this is what motivated the creation of the "extermination camps". Colera, Typhis, and other chronic deseases along with malnutrition and sever beatings were just as deadly as gas, it just took longer. Mass shootings were also common. Concentration camps were death camps.

=S=

Lunatic


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 2, 2004)

Do you understand that the point of a death camp is to exterminate, and that a concentration camp holds and kills, but its real purpose is to act as a sort of prison and work camp...


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## HealzDevo (Dec 2, 2004)

Exactly, I am saying that it is impossible for the average population to know of the existence of the extermination camps. Rommel, probably just thought the Jews were being taken to Concentration camps to be looked after and work to support the German Cause. That is why I think he was shocked when he found out the true nature of some of the camps that weren't in Germany. If a top-ranking member of the military of Germany can be shocked by finding out this information as he didn't know it, do you think the German people would be shocked? I think so. A lot of the problem was that in some case, the Jews created a lot of resentment as Jews were seen as money lenders. People who borrowed money may have taken the opportunistic view of dobbing in that person as a Jew so that they didn't have to pay back the money. Even among the figures of Jews slaughtered, it is difficult to know how many genuine Jews were killed, all we know is the total figure for Jews killed.


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## HealzDevo (Dec 2, 2004)

Jews seemed to be a race that had got off very lightly to the German people as they may have seen Jewish people in the banking and finance industries that seemed to be weathering the storm better than they were. Don't forget Germany was a major manufacturing giant at the time. Also the fact that homosexuals and gypsies were included, it has to be considered that it was only fairly recently that homosexuality was no longer a crime between consenting adults in most countries. Gypsies are considered under vagrants and others and were often jailed and worse by most countries. Britain in its old criminal code which Australia inherited had a clause about vagrants and tramps. Try looking up the US act and I'm sure you'll find a similar clause in there. Therefore Hitler's actions in relation to homosexuality and gypsies were not really that different from the way other countries treated the issue. After all what power did they use to arrest the Hippies of the 1960s and move them on?


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## Anonymous (Dec 3, 2004)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> Do you understand that the point of a death camp is to exterminate, and that a concentration camp holds and kills, but its real purpose is to act as a sort of prison and work camp...



Hmmm... do you understand that the concentration camps were death camps? Prisoners were barely fed, and what food and water they did get was foul. They had almost no medicine. When they got sick they were usually either shot or beaten to death. That the death rates were so high that the Nazi's had a serious problem disposing of the bodies without creating a disease threat to the rest of the German public? That the body disposal problem was what motivated the "final solution" of the extermination camps?

Dachau is listed as a "concentration camp". You say that this means it was primarily a prison. Hmmm...





Dachau - The "Small" Cremetorium ovens built in 1940.





Dachau - Small Cremetorium exterior





Dachau - Large Cremetorium, built in 1942 because the small Crematorium was insufficent to handle the volume of dead.



> The next room was about the worst, I believe. Here were four, large, furnaces, the crematorium. As many as three bodies were crammed into each furnace at a time and burned, about 165 a day, we were told. Some of the victims were hanged on the rafters just a few feet from the furnaces, then burned. But deaths too greatly out-numbered the furnace capacity so bodies were piled like sacks of flour in the next room, hundreds of them.
> http://mariposa.yosemite.net/mudnguts/page110.htm



How many prisons have six furnace crematoriums? And don't think that this was only a late-in-the war phenomna, the first crematorium (two furnaces) was built in 1940 and the larger unit (four furnaces) in 1942.

The fact is the concentration camps were death camps. The only difference between them and the "extermination camps" was the degree to which they were prepared to deal with the bodies and the method of extermination.

-------

If you really believe the German people did not know what was going on, you need to see Claude Lanzmann's documentary, "Shoah". You can purchase it relatively cheap on Ebay:

http://search.ebay.com/Shoah_W0QQfromZR40QQsojsZ1

(if this link does not work, goto Ebay.com and search on "Shoah")

In this 9.5 hour documentary, you will see that the German people of the time almost always claimed they had no idea about what was going on, but after lengthy and subtle questioning virutally always admitted they in fact did know, and that the chose not to do anthing, or that they supported it. I know you won't believe me, so watch it for yourself and I'm sure you will be convinced that the post-war claims not to have known what was happening by the German bystanders were/are nothing more than self-deception. You will see that the undeniable truth is almost all of them knew what was going on. Anyone who claims to believe otherwise is just participating, knowingly or unknowingly, in deception.

There were somewhere around a hundred concentration camps of one form or another setup by the Nazi's in WWII. There is no way such a thing could have been kept secret. 

=S=

Lunatic


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## rebel8303 (Dec 3, 2004)

Ok I think that most Germans did not actually were aware of what was going on.
I also think that those who were aware of this could not do absolutuly nothing.
It is a fact that even Wermacht didn´t like the idea of waffen SS.
But they did not react. Well it was too late to react.
Well we must consider the fact that after te WWI defeat Germans economy had crambled. Well it was too easy for Hitler to blame Jews for this. Many Germans might truly believe that blaming Jews would be a sollution to this problem. Well propaganda help for this a lot.

But I don´t think Lunatic that Germans could know a lot about death camps. 
I saw a movie were a german scientist was a asked to develop a chemical to clean rooms easier but they were using that as gas to kill Jews. Well I don´t know about that - it was a movie hehe...


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## Anonymous (Dec 3, 2004)

If you really think that you need to watch the movie *Shoah*, because you are very wrong. There were undoubtedly a few German's who didn't know what was going on, but they were the very small minority.

It's easy to say "I didn't know", even if they did. It's just one more act of cowardice and denial.


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## Medvedya (Dec 3, 2004)

An easy comment to make in a democratic country.


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## Anonymous (Dec 3, 2004)

Medvedya said:


> An easy comment to make in a democratic country.



Germany was a democratic country. They decided to vote away their democracy.


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## Medvedya (Dec 3, 2004)

Doesn't matter - the point is, if you're standing in a Bier-Haus and every man-jack in there is bawling out 'Tomorrow Belongs to Me' are you suddenly going to stand up on a table and heckle them? I doubt it. 

Apart from anything else, if your country is going down the toilet, and somebody is offering stability and prosperity for all, wouldn't you be up for that? You're forgetting the importance of hindsight.


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## Anonymous (Dec 3, 2004)

Medvedya said:


> Doesn't matter - the point is, if you're standing in a Bier-Haus and every man-jack in there is bawling out 'Tomorrow Belongs to Me' are you suddenly going to stand up on a table and heckle them? I doubt it.
> 
> Apart from anything else, if your country is going down the toilet, and somebody is offering stability and prosperity for all, wouldn't you be up for that? You're forgetting the importance of hindsight.



No I am not. Which is why I do not think it would have been approprate to punish the German people for having allowed and supported the Nazi terror.

My single point is that the truth should be remembered for what it is, not covered up in denials and deceptions. It is important for us to realize that people are people and that you have to stand up against things you know are evil immeadiately when you see them, or all to quickly it can be too late.


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## Medvedya (Dec 3, 2004)

But that's exactly it, who in Germany could have imagined a place like Auschwitz being built at the time the Enabling Act was being passed?


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## Anonymous (Dec 3, 2004)

Medvedya said:


> But that's exactly it, who in Germany could have imagined a place like Auschwitz being built at the time the Enabling Act was being passed?



Camps were built and the future was apparent as early as 1933.

People have to be responsible for the evil acts of those they support. The German people supported Hitler. He was a very popular leader right till the last year of WWII. The people knew what he was doing and they chose not to care. The fact that it occured incrementally over a period of about 10 years does not justify their continuing to support him.

Look, there is no way around it. Either people are responsible or they are not. What bothers me is that neither the Germans nor the Japanese people seem willing to accept that their parents/granparents were responsible for their countries actions in WWII. They should be accepting it and resloving themselves never to let it happen again, instead of denying it and making a repeat of history much more likely.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Medvedya (Dec 3, 2004)

But I don't think there is any denial. Look at all the German people who post here. None of them have come up with any 'Denial' theories - if anything, you can visit plenty of British and American Neo-Nazi websites who will come up with those. 

I think that to recognise the bravery and skill of ordinary German soldiers, sailors, and airmen is a world away from either playing down, or championing the atrocities the Nazi's committed.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 3, 2004)

You will certainly meet individuals in denial, and there are of course the Neo-Nazi groups, growing even in Germany itself, but I don't believe for a second that the nation on the whole is denying anything.

Quite the contrary.

I've had the opportunity to meet with _several_ Germans, civilian and military, both young and of the WWII generation, in Germany and elsewhere, and on the whole there's been nothing resembling a lack of regret for the horrors perpetrated by the Nazis.
Should the beliefs of some right-wing radicals be a reflection of the entire culture? Of course not.

The German youth of today _are_ in fact taught about the horrors of the holocaust, and young recruits of the Bundeswehr/Bundesmarine/Luftwaffe are educated further during their basic training. They are not allowed to forget.

I'm of the belief that this must continue, in the Allied nations as well as the former Axis. Already signs of complacency are becoming apparent at Remembrance (or Memorial) ceremonies for our own veterans. It's a disturbing trend!


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## Anonymous (Dec 4, 2004)

Well, if you look at the survey results of young German's it is apparent that only a small % are very aware of what happened in WWII, especially with respect to the Holocaust. If you look at post-war surveys and those taken in the 60's and 70's, it is pretty clear that most Germans deny they knew what was going on during the war w.r.t. the holocaust. There are pleanty of exceptions, but it's genrally a taboo subject in general conversation and those who don't want to know are easily able to avoid the knowlege.

With the Japanese it's far worse. As I pointed out earlier, when surveyed young Japanese adults believe "Japan was a not very agressive country before WWII that the USA conquered". Japanese denials concering the rape of Nanking, the treatment of POW's, and the atrocities of Unit 731 abound.

Anyway, this has gotten far off the topic and far off the point I was originally trying to make. I'm not trying to be disrepectful to anyone, I'm just saying that it is important that history be remembered for what it really was. This goes for the USA as well, we have pleanty of things in our history that are shameful, such as the butchering of the Native Americans and the breaking of treaty after treaty with them, the slavery issue, McCarthyism, etc.... It's important that all these things be remembered.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 4, 2004)

Oh, I most definitely agree that history should be remembered factually!
Not always the case I'm afraid, which is why realistic education is so very important. With our ever worsening infatuation with 'political correctness', many facts are in very real danger of going by the wayside, in favour of spared feelings and good relations!

Yes, Germans and Japanese should be made to at least remember the atrocities of their forefathers in WWII. Not to rub their noses in anything, but to ensure that these terrible deeds are never forgotten, in the hopes that they are never repeated.

I will reiterate , however, that it is no less important that the youth of the Allied nations be equally well educated on the facts!

At least _some_ must be made to understand and remember!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 4, 2004)

i think it's ing that most people don't have a clue about WWII...........


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## Hot Space (Dec 4, 2004)

What's WWII?

Hot Space


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## Medvedya (Dec 4, 2004)

The sequel... Got a lot more action and carnage than in the original.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 4, 2004)

And the third instalment will surely blow us all away!


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## Hot Space (Dec 4, 2004)

Wasn't that the one where Harrison Ford played the Spanish Goalkeeper?

Hot Space


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## Medvedya (Dec 4, 2004)

Nah, there was a lot of talk a while back of making it into a trilogy, but it was decided that it would be too expensive.


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## Hot Space (Dec 4, 2004)

I guess he's back to chewing backer then  

Hot Space


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

Nonskimmer said:


> And the third instalment will surely blow us all away!



 

I hear its going to have a Russian dictator - dorry I mean director


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## rebel8303 (Dec 5, 2004)

The Germans surely know about what happened in WWII. If they didn't why then someone could visit a death camp today? My parents did. It is very difficult to hide it from them anymore. 
I also think that this is German history now and it would be a shame if they hide such things in german schools.

WWIII is not gonna be as funny as you think guys! Most of the times in a trilogy the third part sucks.


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## Anonymous (Dec 5, 2004)

rebel8303 said:


> The Germans surely know about what happened in WWII. If they didn't why then someone could visit a death camp today? My parents did. It is very difficult to hide it from them anymore.
> I also think that this is German history now and it would be a shame if they hide such things in german schools.



All I can tell you is that most German's whome I've spoken with, who are post-WWII generation, know little of the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime. And further, surveys of 1st year college students indicate almost a complete lack of such knowlege.

Just because the camps are there does not mean they are visited by most Germans. It should be manditory at about the 11th grade (16 years old) that every German student visit a concentration camp memorial sight.

=S=

Lunatic


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

> WWIII is not gonna be as funny as you think guys! Most of the times in a trilogy the third part sucks.



Thats what they said about the 2nd one, but no it was incredible: Bigger, badder, longer and uncut!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 5, 2004)




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## Nonskimmer (Dec 5, 2004)

RG_Lunatic said:


> All I can tell you is that most German's whome I've spoken with, who are post-WWII generation, know little of the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime.



Our experiences with German citizens obviously differ. I'd hate to think that German schools have stopped the practice of educating the young on this subject, but in light of the politically correct age we've entered I suppose I really shouldn't be too surprised if they did.



RG_Lunatic said:


> Just because the camps are there does not mean they are visited by most Germans.



Perhaps you're right, I don't really know. They _are_ a mandatory part of German military training, but their existence and original purpose should be made clear to everyone.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 5, 2004)

You can not argue with RG_Lunatic. He is always right. Yeah right he just thinks he is always right. As for the German people RG what could they have done? Tell me. They could not stop Hitler from coming to power and at the time he came to power they would not have wanted to he made them feel like they were part of a greater power. As for the concentration camps again I say most Germans did not know about them. They did not know they were being killed. But ofcourse RG I know that I am wrong because you say that I am and because of the fact that I am also a German citizen I am denying the past of my country. That is whay you said in other threads that the German people do. And I know that us Germans and the rest of the world owe you everything. Maybe I should just give up my German citizenship because they way you sound in a lot of these threads it is a shame. Anyways I give up trying to reason with you because you only want to be heard.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 5, 2004)

There's hardly a nation on this earth that doesn't have some horrible element to their past.


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## Medvedya (Dec 5, 2004)

Well, your country hasn't done anything nasty - as far as I know...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 5, 2004)

Med, surely you are forgetting the great Canadian massacre of 1563...


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## Medvedya (Dec 5, 2004)

Was that when the town of St. Phillip Terrance was put to the sword by an angry mob?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 5, 2004)

Every nation has had its dark period in its time, but the thing that counts is when a nation transforms itself into a nation that respects other nations and other people and does something for the world. You can not condemn a nation for its past. No one looks down on the US for the slavery or the taking of indian lands and massacreing them, no one looks down on England for they ways they handeld there problems with Scottland and Ireland. And both of them are great nations.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 5, 2004)

Medvedya said:


> Well, your country hasn't done anything nasty - as far as I know...



Everyone knows we're perfect! 

Not hardly we ain't!
The early history of Canada is not very much unlike that of the United States. The displacement and even slaughter of entire native communities occured just as often. We too had slavery, but it was abolished a little earlier than in the U.S.

Perhaps the biggest difference was the fact that we remained under British rule for alot longer.

Racism in Canada is just as prevalent as elsewhere, and our internment of ethnic Japanese during WWII was no different than in the U.S. Even second and third generation Canadians, who happened to be of Japanese descent.

I wish many more people in this country would accept these and many other things, but you'd be amazed at the number of people who don't. Only then can we look at ourselves realistically!



Oh, and Terrance and Phillip escaped the mob.
Didn't you hear? Farting saved Canada!


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 5, 2004)

Medvedya said:


> Was that when the town of St. Phillip Terrance was put to the sword by an angry mob?




I think so, my sources are fuzzy...


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## Anonymous (Dec 5, 2004)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> You can not argue with RG_Lunatic. He is always right. Yeah right he just thinks he is always right. As for the German people RG what could they have done? Tell me. They could not stop Hitler from coming to power and at the time he came to power they would not have wanted to he made them feel like they were part of a greater power. As for the concentration camps again I say most Germans did not know about them. They did not know they were being killed. But ofcourse RG I know that I am wrong because you say that I am and because of the fact that I am also a German citizen I am denying the past of my country. That is whay you said in other threads that the German people do. And I know that us Germans and the rest of the world owe you everything. Maybe I should just give up my German citizenship because they way you sound in a lot of these threads it is a shame. Anyways I give up trying to reason with you because you only want to be heard.



Watch the Shoah documentary, then reply m8. Until you do, you're argument about the German people's innocence in this matter is based upon denial and self-deception. Just watch the documentary please. You can order it for about $10-30 or so on ebay. Watch the interviews and you will see for yourself.

You are taking this too personally m8. Yes it is something to be ashamed of, but only for the actions of an eariler generation. Almost every nation, including the USA, has such issues in its past which it should feel shame over. That is not a reason not to know about that history, or justification to deny it happened.

I feel that every American student should be taught about the slavery period of our history, and about the post-slavery civil rights abuses of black Americans. They should be taught about the deplorable treatment of the American indians, especially the butchering of women and children and the violations of treaty after treaty that occured. They should be taught about the abuses of hispanic Americans in the SW, both during the depression and after WWII. They should be taught about the slaughter during the Spanish American war, which appears to have been contrived, and about the killing of at least 40,000 Filapinos in taking that posession from the Spanish. These are shameful aspects of our history but every American should understand the truth of what did happen.

As for "owing the USA". Yes, I think the Germans and the French both owe the USA for its generosity to both nations in the post WWII period. I'm not saying they should repay the debts which were willingly forgiven (billions of 1950's $), but they should not stand against us in our war on terror, especially not over financial deals involving fraudulent use of the Oil for Food program. That's just my personal feeling on the issue, why does my personal feeling upset you so much?

=S=

Lunatic


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## Medvedya (Dec 5, 2004)

Look, this is going around in circles. What I’ve learnt, by speaking to a few people who were around at the time, is that the Holocaust didn't immediately start off with Crystalnacht and the Wannsee Conference, things like that don't. It was an insidious creep towards such things, and when you're there on the spot, it’s not something which is apparent. Granted, people _did_ know that something was going on, but usually by something as mundane as the tailor disappearing. 

Besides, in times like those, asking too many questions can get a person killed. Far better to accept the nebulous explanation that the tailor has 'gone to the East.' After all, what else could someone accept? Why would someone even want to start chipping away at things which didn't concern them? How can you blame people for simply wanting to get on with their lives as best as they can? Both before and after the war, when the whole ghastliness of it all came to light.

Granted, you know a lot about history, but your ability to empathise with people leaves a lot to be desired. I and most others here can see Adler’s annoyance in some of the things you write. He knows about the Holocaust, he agrees that it was a terrible thing, what more do you want him to do? He wasn’t even born then! He’s stuck out in a total armpit of a country, trying very hard not to get his head shot off, and he just wants to write posts in his spare time on historic weapons, equipment, and aircraft with a bit of non-contentious history thrown in. Instead, he has to justify himself and his nation today to some random guy nice and safe at home about something that was over 60 years ago. 

I hate getting gnarly like this, it’s not me at all, but this is getting really over the top.


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## rebel8303 (Dec 5, 2004)

CC I don't think that you were there t say this!
Anyway as a observer yes you're right! It was bigger, worse longer and more exciting than the first one.
I still can't believe that I'm talking like this about a war...


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## Anonymous (Dec 6, 2004)

Medvedya said:


> Look, this is going around in circles. What I’ve learnt, by speaking to a few people who were around at the time, is that the Holocaust didn't immediately start off with Crystalnacht and the Wannsee Conference, things like that don't. It was an insidious creep towards such things, and when you're there on the spot, it’s not something which is apparent. Granted, people _did_ know that something was going on, but usually by something as mundane as the tailor disappearing.
> 
> Besides, in times like those, asking too many questions can get a person killed. Far better to accept the nebulous explanation that the tailor has 'gone to the East.' After all, what else could someone accept? Why would someone even want to start chipping away at things which didn't concern them? How can you blame people for simply wanting to get on with their lives as best as they can? Both before and after the war, when the whole ghastliness of it all came to light.
> 
> ...



No, I was not there at the time. But I have relatives who were. On the Jewish side of my family, I can document at least 30 adults (and there were certainly more) who were killed, and only one survivor, and at least as many children were lost (we don't know much about them). On the non-Jewish side, I have spoken to half a dozen who stood by and did nothing, and know of at least 3 who actively participated in the horror. Also, the American and British (Tovey) sides of my family paid heavily in both WWI and WWII. All because the German's thought they were better than everyone else. All because of German pride.

Adler seems to think he's the only one who has any German blood in his viens. But the fact is he only apparently has one side of this conflict flowing, and he is standing up for them when they do not deserve to be stood up for.

You make it sound like the apprehension of the Jews was a subtle thing. It was not, it was done in broad daylight and it started very early on. There were pleanty of opportunities for the German public, especially the church, to stand up and protest what was happening. But they chose not to because what was happening was bad for the Jews, but it was good for them. Sure as things progressed it got harder and harder to stand up against it - but that is the way these things always work. The price of not having stood up early is that it is harder to stand up later. The price of not standing up at all is you must live with shame, and your descendants must live with it.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Anonymous (Dec 6, 2004)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Every nation has had its dark period in its time, but the thing that counts is when a nation transforms itself into a nation that respects other nations and other people and does something for the world. You can not condemn a nation for its past. No one looks down on the US for the slavery or the taking of indian lands and massacreing them, no one looks down on England for they ways they handeld there problems with Scottland and Ireland. And both of them are great nations.



I agree. The only place where we differ is that I think it is important to remember these things for what they were. It is important to remember the bad as well as the good. When we forget the bad, we tend to repeat it.

=S=

Lunatic


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## cute corporal (Dec 6, 2004)

basically, despite having differing opinions, i think we all would come to the same conclusions - that we should all just respect eachother and the grass is never greener on the other side.
all religions carry the same message of 'do not harm unto others' and if most of the people that are in all the armies around the world are religious and the leaders, etc, then they should either obey this call from their gods goddesses or shame themselves and renounce their religion and leave the army/position in the world to become civvies that you wouldnt cross the road to spit on, as most of us in the world are now treated. there is just no respect anymore.the germans and english, despite the fact that they were bitter enemies to the death, respected eachothers courage because they knew that like them, they were carrying out orders. war veterans were respected, not sworn at by snotty-nosed teenagers on street corners, because of what they did for our country and although i understand and sympathise with BOTH sides, we would be MUCH MUCH worse off if Hitler had taken over. WE NEED RESPECT - and not just us - every country in the world. how will we become higher, more intelligent beings if we cannot master this most basic thing amongst ourselves?war shows us all up for what we really are and it exposes everyones true character - we should learn from this. feel free to post private messages to me.


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## Anonymous (Dec 6, 2004)

Unfortunately, I don't believe the Koran (Q'ran, or however you think it should be spelled in English) is in fact a religion that preaches peace. Parts of it do, but parts of it clearly do not. That is the problem we are facing in fighting islamo-fascism, it is just too easy for them to focus on the parts that either blatently or implicity advocate "death to the infidel".

Please keep in mind that most translations of the Koran have been westernized and the parts that advocate violence against non-believers have been tamed down tremendously.

=S=

Lunatic


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## cute corporal (Dec 6, 2004)

at last i meet someone - good morn rg lunatic - nice to meet you,charmed im sure.
i wasnt asking for pedanticism - its just an idea so dont split hairs!
please post back.
x


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 6, 2004)

"Adler seems to think he's the only one who has any German blood in his viens. But the fact is he only apparently has one side of this conflict flowing, and he is standing up for them when they do not deserve to be stood up for."

Okay first of all, I am not standing up for the Nazis. I am standing up for the German people. Some one has to because you think to seem they are all Nazi's. I am not trying to downplay any role that any German made in WW2 and I am certainly not denying anything. I have personally visited the concentration camps of Dachau and Auschwitz. They are a very horrowing experience and they show the atrocities that were made. So I am deffinatly not denying history. As for you family in World War 2 that lost there lives in concentration camps I am deeply sorry for that, there is no excuse for what happened to them, but do I blame the German people for that? No. I blame Hitler and his hatred. I too lost many family members in World War 2 that were German and they too were good people who fought for there country like anyone else would have done. As for Germany not standing with the US on the War against terror, get your facts straight. German soldiers are in Afganistan, Djibouti, and Somalia. They did not agree with Iraq but hello news flash. The War in Iraq is not part of the war on terror. It was even being planned in February of 2000 and earlier. Long before Sept. 11th. So please get your facts straight. And as was just said this discussion can go on and on forever and I dont care to argue with you anymore because you will never see my point of view. I understand your point of view and happen not to agree with it in my opinion and that is my right as a free person. If you dont like that TOUGH!


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 6, 2004)

Nonskimmer said:


> There's hardly a nation on this earth that doesn't have some horrible element to their past.



Switzerland! 

Actually, the fact theyre there at all is horrible in itself


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## Maestro (Dec 6, 2004)

"The best place in the world would be where the clocks are Swiss, the cooks are French, the cars are British and the girls are Swedish.

The worst place in the world would be where the clock are Swedish, the cooks are British, the cars are Swiss and the girls are French."

Just remembered that I read that somewhere a while back.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 6, 2004)

Swedish girls are horrid, Most British Cars are horrid...

I think I prefer the 2nd option...


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## Medvedya (Dec 6, 2004)

Swedish girls are horrid? I've always found them rather nice (to me) myself.....


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 6, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> Nonskimmer said:
> 
> 
> > There's hardly a nation on this earth that doesn't have some horrible element to their past.
> ...



Sorry m8, but are you actually serious? 
I'm a bit slow at times.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 6, 2004)

I dont like blondes...


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 6, 2004)

I was making a bit of a joke...


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 6, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> I dont like blondes...


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## Medvedya (Dec 6, 2004)

The 'Swedish blonde' is the biggest cliche ever. I don't think I've even _met_ a Swedish girl who looks the way they're portrayed in porno flicks. 

The ones I've known were all completely bats though, which makes them quite endearing in my view.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 6, 2004)

Agreed!!


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## Medvedya (Dec 6, 2004)

I blame the nuttyness on the long dark winters there......


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 6, 2004)

I can somewhat relate to that.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 6, 2004)

Nonskimmer said:


> cheddar cheese said:
> 
> 
> > I dont like blondes...



I dont like the colour or their personalities...


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## Medvedya (Dec 6, 2004)

Steady now, my mum and my sister are blonde!


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 6, 2004)

Medvedya said:


> Steady now, my mum and my sister are blonde!



CC is having a relapse of foot-in-mouth disease.  
I suffer with it also.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 6, 2004)

Im not against blondes, my girlfriends sister is blonde and she can be a hell of a laugh 

But im a Brunette/Redhead man 8)


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 6, 2004)

Oh yeah, not forgetting Purpleheads, of which my girlfriend is one


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 6, 2004)

How retarded... Purple hair... 


Anyway, I like brunettes best! 8)


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## HealzDevo (Dec 6, 2004)

I really do think though in my mind that the bombing of the cities of Germany did save Britain from some of the horrors that Germany had prepared for it. Germany was working on a Fighter, Bomber and a Fighter-Bomber version which was almost operational at the end of the war. Had it indeed become totally operational, it would have tipped the balance of power Germany's way as far as airpower goes. How do you defend against something, that is difficult to see on your radar screens? The bombers relied on radar to give them the information on attacking fighters. A plane like the Horton Ho-229 would break down that defence and be able to swat Allied bombers and fighters from the air easily. The only thing that may have prevented this horror was the need to concentrate production on the Me-109, Me-110 varients and Flak guns to protect the cities. This is a worst case scenario of what seems the most likely thing that could have happened to the Allies. So what little production the Germans had left had to be divided between equipment for fighting Russia and equipment for protecting German Cities. My argument all along is that the bombing of German cities may have saved a lot of Allied lives, and potentially been a factor in the winning of the 2nd World War in Europe.


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## Anonymous (Dec 6, 2004)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> "Adler seems to think he's the only one who has any German blood in his viens. But the fact is he only apparently has one side of this conflict flowing, and he is standing up for them when they do not deserve to be stood up for."
> 
> Okay first of all, I am not standing up for the Nazis. I am standing up for the German people. Some one has to because you think to seem they are all Nazi's. I am not trying to downplay any role that any German made in WW2 and I am certainly not denying anything. I have personally visited the concentration camps of Dachau and Auschwitz. They are a very horrowing experience and they show the atrocities that were made. So I am deffinatly not denying history. As for you family in World War 2 that lost there lives in concentration camps I am deeply sorry for that, there is no excuse for what happened to them, but do I blame the German people for that? No. I blame Hitler and his hatred. I too lost many family members in World War 2 that were German and they too were good people who fought for there country like anyone else would have done. As for Germany not standing with the US on the War against terror, get your facts straight. German soldiers are in Afganistan, Djibouti, and Somalia. They did not agree with Iraq but hello news flash. The War in Iraq is not part of the war on terror. It was even being planned in February of 2000 and earlier. Long before Sept. 11th. So please get your facts straight. And as was just said this discussion can go on and on forever and I dont care to argue with you anymore because you will never see my point of view. I understand your point of view and happen not to agree with it in my opinion and that is my right as a free person. If you dont like that TOUGH!



I'm not saying they should have agreed with US about Iraq, I'm saying they should not have stood against us in the UN. I understand your position, but I really think that Germany and Frances positions are based upon specific individuals who stood to loose if Iraq was invaded. Right or wrong (and I don't support it either), it was clear the USA was going to invade Iraq, and given that fact Germany and especially France should not have stood in the way of having this be done under the UN banner. The price of this action is high - the UN is now a defunct entity. When the USA pulls part or all of its funding of the UN, which I expect to happen within this Administration, it's finished.

Again, I have (former) German relatives on both sides. I have sat in another room (as a child) listening to them talk with one another and seen the truth of the matter. I don't think any German can claim any level of honor for their participation in WWII, unless they tried to stop the Nazi's.

I do see your point of view. I just disagree with it is all. Until you watch the documentary "Shoah" I simply cannot respect it because you are refusing to learn the truth of the matter.

=S=

Lunatic


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 7, 2004)

As for the Swedish girls, they are awesome. But the blond thing is a misconception. I dated a swedish girl once and when I first met her I thought she was from Mexico and not from Sweden. But Swedish chicks are still awesome. Now I have to finish reading the posts so that I can answer to those too.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 7, 2004)

Brunettes are the best, dark haird women rule!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 7, 2004)

You are dead wrong RG_Lunatic. A soldier is a soldier no matter what side he fights on. German soldiers fought for there country and many of them did not fight for Hitler. They fought for Germany which any self respecting citizen would do. My Grandfather was a very honorable man, was until the day he died and he was a Major in the Wehrmacht, so are you saying he has no honor because he recieve notification that he had to join the Wehrmacht because they were in short supply of doctors and he answered his countries call and put on a uniform? I do not expect you to understand this because you have never experienced it. I wear a uniform and it has an American flag on my right shoulder. I carry out orders and do my duty for the United States America and that is nothing different than what most German soldiers did in WW2. And most of them had and still do today have honor. It is easy for a civilian to talk about soldiers like that, I do not expect you to understand. I fought Iraqi soldiers and I do I hate them and think they are dishonorable no they were fighting for there country. God bless all soldiers and may they keep there honor!


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 7, 2004)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> How retarded... Purple hair...
> 
> 
> Anyway, I like brunettes best! 8)



Purple hair looks great.


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## Medvedya (Dec 7, 2004)

Depends on the shade of purple, and the complexion of the girl....


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 7, 2004)

Fairly pale skin, dark purple...


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## Medvedya (Dec 7, 2004)

Yeah, that works - your maud wouldn't happen to look like that by any chance?


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 7, 2004)

Yup  I wish I had straight, chin length hair, sort of hanging over one side of my face, and I wish it was dark blue...


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## Medvedya (Dec 7, 2004)

You'd look like something out of the Human League!


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 7, 2004)

Its what im getting at


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 7, 2004)

I have but one question: 

Why?


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 7, 2004)

Cos someone on my bus looks like that and he looks right cool...


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 7, 2004)

How about a buzz cut?


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 7, 2004)

A what?


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 7, 2004)

Only shorter!


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 7, 2004)

Is being ginger required?

No way, I like my hair long...


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## Anonymous (Dec 7, 2004)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> You are dead wrong RG_Lunatic. A soldier is a soldier no matter what side he fights on. German soldiers fought for there country and many of them did not fight for Hitler. They fought for Germany which any self respecting citizen would do. My Grandfather was a very honorable man, was until the day he died and he was a Major in the Wehrmacht, so are you saying he has no honor because he recieve notification that he had to join the Wehrmacht because they were in short supply of doctors and he answered his countries call and put on a uniform? I do not expect you to understand this because you have never experienced it. I wear a uniform and it has an American flag on my right shoulder. I carry out orders and do my duty for the United States America and that is nothing different than what most German soldiers did in WW2. And most of them had and still do today have honor. It is easy for a civilian to talk about soldiers like that, I do not expect you to understand. I fought Iraqi soldiers and I do I hate them and think they are dishonorable no they were fighting for there country. God bless all soldiers and may they keep there honor!



Okay, I will accept that some German soldiers had honor. But so many German soldiers followed illegal orders, especially on the E. front, it is hard to accord honor to those who did deserve it.

I will post some diaries of Wehrmacht soldiers for you to read.

=S=

Lunatic


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 8, 2004)

but even if they didn't want to carry out an order, they bloddy well had to, they didn't have that choise, you can't blame them for that..............


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## MichaelHenley (Dec 8, 2004)

On the topic of blondes from a while ago...


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 8, 2004)

Ok, you have GOT to be kidding!


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## redcoat (Dec 8, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> but even if they didn't want to carry out an order, they bloddy well had to, they didn't have that choise, you can't blame them for that..............


It depends on the order.
A small number of Heer did object and refuse to follow what in their eyes were illegal orders. While a number were transfered to other units, their is actually little evidence that any drastic measures were taken against them.
It appears that the Nazi high command was keen to keep its illegal activities as low key as possible, so rather than force units to obey these orders, if any did object, they would find other units to do it instead


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## HealzDevo (Dec 10, 2004)

Agreed, but then I suppose maybe the French leader is worried that he could be tried for his actions. Because he has been trying to hold the whole EU to his will, so it seems... France really needs to get kicked again by the Germans and this time France should become permenantly part of Germany. That is the only way a better French race will ever develop...


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 12, 2004)




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## redcoat (Dec 12, 2004)

HealzDevo said:


> Agreed, but then I suppose maybe the French leader is worried that he could be tried for his actions. Because he has been trying to hold the whole EU to his will, so it seems... France really needs to get kicked again by the Germans and this time France should become permenantly part of Germany. That is the only way a better French race will ever develop...


And here's us thinking we had dealt with the silly people who thought like this in 45


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## HealzDevo (Dec 22, 2004)

No, this is a real thing that the French really need someone to do something about them. They have a real problem which needs to be sorted out. The arrogance of French leaders needs to be permanently shaken out of them. Look at the French president and you will see what I mean.


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## plan_D (Dec 22, 2004)

Forget about Germany taking it, England should take it. Henry V did it, and Henry VI was King of England and France. Shame on them for not holding it, not even holding Normandy and Brittany...


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## Medvedya (Dec 22, 2004)

Urrm, we already are! Go down to the Dordogne, and you'll find more Brit Ex-pat's than Frenchies!


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 22, 2004)

HealzDevo said:


> No, this is a real thing that the French really need someone to do something about them. They have a real problem which needs to be sorted out. The arrogance of French leaders needs to be permanently shaken out of them. Look at the French president and you will see what I mean.



It ain't only the leaders.


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## plan_D (Dec 22, 2004)

Not exactly all of France though, is it? As well put by the team on Top Gear 'France is only a country you drive to, to get to Italy. That's all it's there for'. It's a nice country actually, shame about it being full of the French.


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## Medvedya (Dec 22, 2004)

Oh, they're not that bad really, nicer than the Spanish anyway - grumpy! Odd really, because the Portuguese are the total opposite. Really friendly!


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## plan_D (Dec 22, 2004)

Spanish aren't really bad. I suppose you'd be grumpy too if your country was invaded by loud-mouthed lager louts all year round. 

The Portugese are Englands only Ally in Britain, throughout history Portugal is the only country in Europe that Britain hasn't faced on the battlefield. Naturally, British and Portugese normally get on well...they are decent people...and the country doesn't think it's the daddy...like France does.


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## Medvedya (Dec 22, 2004)

I guess it's the trade as well - Port and Madeira wine and Harveys Bristol Cream all go back to the 18th Century when Bristol and Oporto were major trading ports.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 22, 2004)

And here I thought it was just me! I thought perhaps I'd been unfortunate enough to only have met the nastier, arrogant side of French society (which seemed to be just about everyone I'd met!).
Honestly, of all the countries I've visited France is one of those that I'd least like to return to. Some beautiful architecture and countryside, but well...


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## Anonymous (Dec 22, 2004)

To me the French more than any other country exemplify a lack of gratitude towards their benifactors.

I've posted before why I don't like the French. As far as I'm concerned they can kiss my ...

=S=

Lunatic


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## plan_D (Dec 22, 2004)

I just don't let them near me...let's face it, they smell.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 22, 2004)

i don't think i've ever met a true french man............


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## plan_D (Dec 22, 2004)

You have a point, I don't think anyone has. A man would have some guts...I think it's Frenchmice and French women.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 22, 2004)




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## Nonskimmer (Dec 22, 2004)

Are French soldiers issued white flags with their field kit?


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## plan_D (Dec 22, 2004)

I believe so. And I think the lucky regiments got a few super-cars to speed off in the opposite direction..."It's okay, the British are here to save us" <cheesy French accent>


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## evangilder (Dec 22, 2004)

"Zat ees okay, zee British weel save ous"

Froggy wassocks


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## plan_D (Dec 22, 2004)

He does it better than me.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 23, 2004)

IF the French run away so much, why does Monty Python and the Holy Grail portray them otherwise?


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## evangilder (Dec 23, 2004)

Merci, plan_d. I think Holy Grail portrays them well, as the smug, annoying people that they can be. That's a hilarios scene too. That's one of my favorite comedies.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 23, 2004)

Mine too.


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## plan_D (Dec 23, 2004)

Same here.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 23, 2004)

I still haven't finished Life of Brian...


It gets BORING!


The Holy Grail kicks ass, though...


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 23, 2004)

Life of Brian isnt so good...

Have you seen the Meaning of Life yet? That is a brilliant film 8)


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 23, 2004)

Nope, I have LoB, and rented Holy Grail, those are the only two I've seen...


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## plan_D (Dec 23, 2004)

I have the Holy Grail, Meaning of Life, Now for something completely different and Life of Brian on DVD.


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## Anonymous (Dec 23, 2004)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> I still haven't finished Life of Brian...
> 
> 
> It gets BORING!
> ...



Give it another try. Just when it starts to get "boring" give it a few more mins and the aliens pop in. It really is much more subtle than most of the other MP films, but it's probably the best in many respects for that reason. Every time I see it something else in it cracks me up.

=S=

Lunatic


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## lesofprimus (Dec 23, 2004)

Jabberwocky was another good one as well... Life of Brian was funny as hell.. Blasphemy at its highest art form.... The Meaning of Life was pure genius..... "It was the Salmon Mousse...." Priceless....

"How are u feeling today Sir?"
"Better......."
"Oh my thats gre......"
"Better get me a bucket, Im gonna throw up.."

That scene was insane......


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## Anonymous (Dec 23, 2004)

lesofprimus said:


> Jabberwocky was another good one as well... Life of Brian was funny as hell.. Blasphemy at its highest art form.... The Meaning of Life was pure genius..... "It was the Salmon Mousse...." Priceless....
> 
> "How are u feeling today Sir?"
> "Better......."
> ...



Actually I didn't think Life of Brian was really all that Blasphemous. It was on the surface of course, but below that it was really about how people miss the point and twist things to their own ends.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 23, 2004)

In LoB, I saw the aliens...


I got up to the part where the main guy is naked; ing.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 23, 2004)

The way they mocked Religion and Christ and the Jews was just far beyond anything else comedy-wise up till then... They definatly set the bar.....


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## Anonymous (Dec 23, 2004)

lesofprimus said:


> The way they mocked Religion and Christ and the Jews was just far beyond anything else comedy-wise up till then... They definatly set the bar.....



Yes, but if you really watch the movie, it is done in a respectful way. It merely points out the hippocracy between what each group says and what it does.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 23, 2004)

"Is this the Judean Peoples Front?"

"Fuck off, this is the Peoples front of Judea!"


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## lesofprimus (Dec 23, 2004)

LOL......


> Yes, but if you really watch the movie, it is done in a respectful way.


Respectful mockery of Christ and Religion...... Dude, the crap was just plain ass funny..... And that scene where he gets naked is funny as hell, goin to the window and streching, and theres 10,000 people down below him, worshiping him.... Hilarious..... 

U just gotta look past the dick shot...


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 24, 2004)

That was sick...scarred for life


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## lesofprimus (Dec 24, 2004)

Seeing a grown man naked is sick and scarring???? Do u vomit when u see urself in the mirror with no clothes on???

Jeez, its just a dick... I hope u have one as well... Most of them are the same....


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 24, 2004)

No but its totally unecassary...

Would you prefer it if I said "That bit where you see his cock is brilliant!"?


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## lesofprimus (Dec 24, 2004)

UMMMMMM... No......


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 24, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> Would you prefer it if I said "That bit where you see his cock is brilliant!"?



   
You're reeeaally starting to worry me, CC!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 24, 2004)

na we get it all the time at school...............


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## Anonymous (Dec 24, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> No but its totally unecassary...
> 
> Would you prefer it if I said "That bit where you see his cock is brilliant!"?



No it was totally necessary. You need to watch it again and open your mind a bit to get the point of that scene. It's hillarous.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 28, 2004)

I would have done that a long time ago if I was actually in my mind in the first place...


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## HealzDevo (Jan 13, 2005)

Good point, really good point. The French really did have a chance but they blew it by retreating. If they had of stood their ground and used what equipment they had to the full advantage, with British help, the Blitz would maybe never have happened, as it was only from French coastal fighter fields that the Luftwaffe fighters could cross the channel. That was why I think France was considered a target, that and the fact of its history with Germany. I still stand by my points that a Free Britain was an embarressment to Germany as it gave hope to the resistance movements in occupied countries that the Germans were not an infalliable war machine, that rolled on like a giant steam-roller, as up until that time Hitler had gone from victory to victory. The Battle Of Britain was Hitler's first (at least major) defeat during WW2.


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## trackend (Apr 5, 2005)

I don't know if any of you guys in the UK watch the history channel but yesterday Max Hasting in a discussion regarding the bombing of Dresden said that the Russians requested it be bombed as well as Leipzig have any of you read anything about this as I cant find anything about this request.


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## delcyros (Apr 5, 2005)

This source would interest me very much. Can You maybe reference this? Even General Zhukov was against this bombing, because he needed Dresden and it´s central railway system to further deploy troops deep within Germany. 
However, Dresden was one of the reasons why the soviets were that widely accepted as an occupational force in the soviet occupational zone directly after VE-day. Many thought that the red army has to fight all the war with Nazi Germany while the UK and US dropped bombs from the air, only (the soviets never carried out a strategic bombing campaign). While this is incorrect, it declares why the soviets have been accepted that soon by germans.


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## plan_D (Apr 5, 2005)

I haven't heard of that, even in Max Hastings book "Armageddon" it doesn't mention the Soviets requesting the bombings. Although, I might have just forgotten since I read "Burma" then "Armageddon" then "Monte Cassino" then "Hitlers Samurai" all in quick succesion.


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## Anonymous (Apr 6, 2005)

delcyros said:


> This source would interest me very much. Can You maybe reference this? Even General Zhukov was against this bombing, because he needed Dresden and it´s central railway system to further deploy troops deep within Germany.
> However, Dresden was one of the reasons why the soviets were that widely accepted as an occupational force in the soviet occupational zone directly after VE-day. Many thought that the red army has to fight all the war with Nazi Germany while the UK and US dropped bombs from the air, only (the soviets never carried out a strategic bombing campaign). While this is incorrect, it declares why the soviets have been accepted that soon by germans.



I really doubt that is the reason. The Germans were just afriad of the Russians. After the "three days" that Stalin gave his troops after VE day, the German people certianly hated the Russians even more than they did before.

=S=

Lunatic


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## trackend (Apr 6, 2005)

I found this link see what you fellas make of it as far as I can tell it seems to point to a general request by the Russians to attack communications not specific targets. https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm


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## delcyros (Apr 6, 2005)

The analysis is interesting, but it is an interpretation which doesn´t proof anything. There are also some mistakes about the industries in Dresden (Zeiss Ikon for example), but they may come from wrong intellegences. In fact the soviets did not asked for the bombing of Dresden. The analysis also doesn´t reflect other purposes of "communication" (which is an extremely general term) targets: The destruction of advanced german technology in the later soviet occupational zone. The Berlin bombing of 15 th of march had the aim to destroy the Auer Werke of Oranienburg (which was responsible for production of Uranium and Thorium). Even in Speers notices you find on 3rd of april 1945:"...even while the enemy believes to win the war in within weeks, there has been a significant change in bombing strategy. (...) The latest bombings of electrical industries in Berlin, the tooling industries in Saxonia or the optical industries in Thuringia have been highly systematic, this is interesting because the products of these industries will not come into effect prior to months later (when the allies believe to have already won the war...). Or are there other reasons behind the bombings, which are not related with request by war?" The Chief of the british air forces, Charles Porter, understood that the heavy bombers are not suited for military target bombings (the official reason was -as to be seen in the analysis- military aid for the advancing red army) and he suggested to bomb the oil industries and storages once more. Churchill himself told him that these bombings are not to prevent troop relocations but to destroy cities in eastern Germany. 
And while it is incorrect that Dresden was the main reason why the soviets have been accepted that soon, it remains fact that this was part of political "education" (call it propaganda) in school in eastern Germany. It is also very interesting that the germans fought so furiuos against the advancing red army even as late as april ´45, while they refused any substantial defense on the western front. Even with this in mind they abolutely lay down arms on 8th of may, no further pocket defense or anything else.
(..and yes, the soviets have been hated by people, as the germans have been hated by soviets...)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 10, 2005)

RG_Lunatic said:


> delcyros said:
> 
> 
> > This source would interest me very much. Can You maybe reference this? Even General Zhukov was against this bombing, because he needed Dresden and it´s central railway system to further deploy troops deep within Germany.
> ...



This you are absolutely correct. My wifes Grandmother still has a deep seated hatred built in here because of the raping she endured over and over again and she was still a little girl. The Germans did not accept the Russians anymore than the Russians excepted the Germans. By the time the war was over both sides hated each other and it not without wonder considering the attrocities committed by both sides toward each other.


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## Anonymous (Apr 10, 2005)

I have to wonder how many of the E. German children born in Jan/Feb 1946 actually had Russian fathers? And I wonder how these children were treated.

=S=

Lunatic


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## delcyros (Apr 11, 2005)

Can tell you:
There have been rates of suicides in Berlin at mid 1945 (females of age 13-40) of about 12 % in four months(!). (can dig out the source if needed)
An uncle of my girlfriend is a child of that raping. He was treated badly by his parents (..not his sisters) in the 50´s and 60´s. In the 70´s he tried to flee the GDR (..and was captured just in the moment he dived into the river Spree, which divided Berlin..) and after 10 years of prisonship he managed to exit officially the GDR. Later he made an academic degree in chemics and biology, where he still works. I like him, he has quite some interesting storys to tell.


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## Anonymous (Apr 11, 2005)

Well, it just goes to show that if you are going to execute a brutal moral-less war of agression, you better win.

And if you are going to loose, you better make sure it is the Americans who you loose to.

I cannot understand why, in about Feb. 1945 or even earlier, the Germans didn't throw everything they had against the Soviets and allow the USA and Britain to occupy all of Germany to keep the Soviets out. Sheer madness to allow the Soviets to take half their country!

Had the German's spent the forces they used at the Battle of the Bulge against the Soviets, the post-war map would have been totally different.

=S=

Lunatic


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 11, 2005)

Good point. I personally think that Hitler had given up on Germany and wanted it all or nothing and was prepared to let Germany be completely destroyed by the Russians if need be.


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## Anonymous (Apr 11, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Good point. I personally think that Hitler had given up on Germany and wanted it all or nothing and was prepared to let Germany be completely destroyed by the Russians if need be.



Well, I really don't think this was the case. Hitler could have authorized the use of nerve gas against the Russians, but choose not to. He did not want to be remembered for having made the Fatherland uninhabitable.

I suspect that Hitler somehow thought they were going to manage a comeback right into May 1945.

=S=

Lunatic


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## delcyros (Apr 12, 2005)

Actually, beside of the Battle of the Bulge, they throw nearly all they had against soviet forces (including suicide attacks against the river Oder bridgeheads). The last offensive battle was in hungary at march 1945. In april they fought a major battle in front of the gates of Berlin (at the heights of Seelow, approx. 20.000 german and between 50.000 and 80.000 soviet soldiers died) and later a battle at Halbe/Teupitz. All against soviet forces. Germany simply lacked in fuel to field most weapons (most piston driven planes to be silenced in march) properly. I cannot see any substantial defefense later than march 1945 against the western forces. And I think, you are right, Hitler and other Nazi leaders believed in a cease fire on the west (esspecially after Roosevelts death). And they relied on their "secret weapons", it shows their stupidness...


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## Anonymous (Apr 12, 2005)

By March it was too late. If the German's had made their stand against the Russians in Dec. 1944 - early Feb. 1945 while simultaneously opening the gates to the US/Brit forces, the map would have been very different. By April, nothing was going to stop Stalin from claiming his prize, even if that meant war with the W. Allies.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Maestro (Apr 12, 2005)

Personnally, I think that Hitler thought that he could still push back both Western Allies and the Soviets untill a few weeks before the end of the war.

I read somewhere that Hitler did say (just before the fall of Berlin) :

"If the Allies wants to take Berlin, let's make them take only cinders."

It prooves the madness of that... bloke.


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## delcyros (Apr 13, 2005)

Probably he did, but it is really far away from reality...
The only way I see to change the outcome a bit (in terms of post war map) would be to assasinate Hitler (it was tried for 37 times from 1932 to 1945, the closest beeing the 1944 attack of Stauffenberg) in late 1944. Even if this cannot prevent unconditional surrender, war on the east would have been much more effective and gates to Berlin would have been open for US and UK forces (..and Rommel wouldn´t have been forced to suicide..).


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 14, 2005)

I really dont think he did believe that. He did say in a speach to the German people that they had failed and that there was no hope for the german people now. I truely think if he could not have it all, no one else would and he wanted the destruction of it.


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## Anonymous (Apr 14, 2005)

Then why didn't Hitler authorize the use of nerve-gas? It would surely have stopped the Soviet and W. Allied advance.


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## delcyros (Apr 14, 2005)

That is a good question. Nerve gases and biological weapons (remember Botulinum) have been avaiable in really large numbers. As far as I know, it wasn´t even considered a solution. But maybe Hitler himself gives an explenation for this. During ww1 he was poisened by nerve gases and retired the army heavily injured. This was a key memory for him, could it be that he refused the use of nerve gases because of personal reasons?


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## Anonymous (Apr 15, 2005)

Hitler's command staff wanted to use nerve gas, particularly against the Russians. Hitler refused, because he believed this would make the land uninhabitable for an extended period (I'm not sure if this is true, how persistant were the German nerve gases?), and did not want to be remembered for having utterly destroyed the Fatherland.

=S=

Lunatic


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 15, 2005)

I was going to say a combinataion of both. Hitler wanted the eastern Lands to be used as living space for the Germans and also because he was gassed in WW1.


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## Pisis (Apr 6, 2006)

Which Germans exactly wanted the Quenn to apologize? If it's some tabloid, who give a fuck?

Again I must put in remembrance that during the war, there is different rules.

Howgh!


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## Wurger (Apr 6, 2006)

The silly people start war and the stupid people wage war and they seldom take the practitioners' advice !!!
Maybe they.


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## syscom3 (Apr 6, 2006)

The Germans didnt want to use chemical weapons as it would have been used back on them.

The horrors of gas warfare in WW1 was deeply ingrained into the collective memory of all the combatants.


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## Twitch (Apr 6, 2006)

Then we must consider the Tokyo napalm raids that killed many more civilians than were killed in Dresden. Is that too something "illegal?"

If someone desires to view events of the war through the distortion of the concept that civilians are somehow magically immune to injury in some fantasy rules of war that never existed save for some peoples' minds, they have failed to immerse themselves in history.

The German war industry began dispersing early on when Allied air attacks began gutting normal factory complexes. It's real easy to target a huge facility that builds Messerschmitts in ONE location. Break that manufacturing system into several parts and place them in clandestined locales that actually increased production after dispersion, and you might as well bomb hell out of everything just to make sure you got the intended target.

This may not apply to Dresden but you get the idea. As we bombed the easily targetable war materiel facilities the Germans dispersed them and production increased!

On March 9, 1945 Lemay began the concerted fire bombing of Japanese cities. Why? Because Jap civvies were makeing war products in their dispersed facilities in Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka, and Kobe. These raids were effective in that before the next round of napalm attacks leaflets wee dropped waring of the fact and 8.5 million fled to the country to escape frying. With them in out of the urban areas war production nose dived.

And even with that they didn't surrender but prepared a hellatious defensive network of Kyushu and Hokkaido that was to be "last man" mentality.

The Dresden raid was done to please the Russians since they continually complained that they were suffering higher casualties relative to the Allies. Their revengful tactics had a name. It was called "terrorisation." GB was pressured by the Russians to wreak havoc amongst the German civilians.

The initial concept plan for Dresden was not instigated by Harris himself at all. It came from higher up. Can't you picture Churchill being lobbied by Stalin to step up to the plate and "go Russian" on those Nazis?

General Antonov made three specific requests for Allied assistance to the Russians: 

a. To speed up the advance of the Allied troops on the Western Front, for which the present situation is very favorable: (1) To defeat the Germans on the Eastern Front. (2) To defeat the German groupings which have advanced into the Ardennes. (3) The weakening of the German forces in the West in connection with the shifting of their reserves to the East (It is desirable to begin the advance during the first half of February).
b. By air action on communications hinder the enemy from carrying out the shifting of his troops to the East from the Western Front, from Norway, and from Italy (In particular, to paralyze the junctions of Berlin and Leipzig).
c. Not permit the enemy to remove his forces from Italy


The Viet Cong used our dislike for seeing innocent civilians injured in Vietnam. I saw daily how they exploited and used them as chattel to sucker us into fights. They had absolutely no conscience about ending their lives so they could get a response from us. This was not isolated but was done on an ongoing, daily basis. 

Non-combatants have always been in harm's way in warfare. They've been exploited by either side as they saw fit to gain advantages over their enemy. I say non-combatants and not innocents because many of the adults were engaged in war materiel production. They were contributing to the war effort.

This delusion that in January 1945 the war was all but over is hogwash. Hitler had just pulled off the Ardennes Offensive and we still hadn't landed on Iwo Jima or Okinawa that produced the most horriffic blood letting yet. The kamikazes were doing their thing in the Pacific and more German jets were hammering Allied bombers. 

We only know that the war was almost over in a relative sense because we're sitting on our butts 60 here years later. No one knew how long the carnage would go on back then. This is why it is flawed to second guess "what they shoulda done was...."

We never knew then whether our enemies would use bio-chemical warfare as a last ditch effort. It's so easy to look back 60 years and conclude that wasn't a factor worth considering. Believe me it was considered by fighting men in early 1945.

I don't see anyone justifying the Nazi depoyment of V-1 and V-2 rockets that were made ONLY to kill civilians. I don't see anyone imagining that the Germans wouldn't have unleashed vicious bombing attacks on civilians had they possessed a substantial force of heavy bombers either. So why does it makes sense in the turmoil of times and fog of war that this one event was more evil than any other? The Brits were in their 6TH YEAR of eating Nazi crap and they were damned tired of it! Does anyone really believe that some bleating voice of tempering military actions would have been listened to then?

Dresden was the 7th largest Geman city with primary importance as a communications center. It was, in February 1945, known to contain at least 110 factories and industrial enterprises that were legitimate military targets, and were reported to have employed 50,000 workers in arms plants alone. Among these were dispersed aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabric Goye and Company); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); the great Zeiss Ikon A.G., Germany’s most important optical goods manufactory; and, among others, factories engaged in the production of electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch and Sterzel A.G.), gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke), and electric gauges (Gebruder Bassler). Specific military installations in Dresden in February 1945 included barracks and hutted camps and at least one munitions storage depot.

The Berlin-Leipzig-Dresden railway complex was a major transportation crossroads logistically involved in the movement of German troops.

Here's the cities by population with the total bomb tonnage expended for the entire war:
Berlin- 4,339,000 67,607.6 tons, Hamberg- 1,129,000 38,687.6 tons,
Munich- 841,000 27,110.9 tons, Cologne 772,000 44,923.2 tons, Leipzig- 707,000 11,616.4 tons, Essen- 667,000 37,938.0 tons, Dresden- 642,000 7,100.5 tons.


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## Soren (Apr 6, 2006)

Please don't condemn a whole country for what a single newspaper has said, cause as we all know newspapers are usually full of it.

I am sure that 99% of the German people don't feel the same way as that newspaper !

And btw, if anyone hates the Nazi's, its the Germans.


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## MacArther (Apr 19, 2006)

Ok, Germany realllllyyyy needs to think about the situation. Why should Britain (or any of the Allies) appoligise for using tactics against Germany that the Germans had used to conquer the nearby countries early in the war? 

Oh, if you check the posting times for most of my posts, you'll find its during the school day (that is, if you go by Arizonan time, which excludes daylight savings). Then again, I'm a Senior, so there is not too much for me to worry about.


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## Erich (Apr 25, 2006)

it was already proven through German documentation of the time and is still not beleived today that the facilites described within Dresden as military targets had already been moved out earlier, there was nothing there but buildings. German hi-command could read the writing on the wall and knew with the influx of the Baltic provinces unloading civilians by the millions through drsden that the Soviets were hot on their heels. It of course was a perfect revengefull raid by RAF/US forces one of several done during the ill fated week.

Sadly my own famile felt the purge all because of some ignorant stupid gift-zweg name Adolf and his high hand futuristic sedated plans for a one Reich.

Germany deserved what she brought on herself, my relatives if they read this would not quite agree although they new der führer was not the bright hope as they were led to believe in the early 1930's.


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## ozumn (May 4, 2006)

The bombings was just pure murder, and the bombing on Dredsen was just bad very bad, atleast the yanks had some guts doing day raids.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 4, 2006)

MacArther said:


> Ok, Germany realllllyyyy needs to think about the situation. Why should Britain (or any of the Allies) appoligise for using tactics against Germany that the Germans had used to conquer the nearby countries early in the war?
> 
> Oh, if you check the posting times for most of my posts, you'll find its during the school day (that is, if you go by Arizonan time, which excludes daylight savings). Then again, I'm a Senior, so there is not too much for me to worry about.



Alright as someone who lives in Germany and was born and raised here I have to tell you this. The German government is not demanding an apology from anyone. This newspaper does not speak for the German people. Does your local newspaper speak for the whole of the United States? Did not think so.

2nd do not condemn the modern the German people they are no more responsible for what happened in WW2 then you are for the crimes of slavery before and during the Civil War.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 4, 2006)

ozumn said:


> The bombings was just pure murder, and the bombing on Dredsen was just bad very bad, atleast the yanks had some guts doing day raids.



That is obsured as well. The Germans fire bombed British cities so what makes it so much worse that the British did it.


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## MacArther (May 4, 2006)

Ehehehe, sorry Der. I guess I missed the part about it being from a newspaper and not from the actual government.


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## syscom3 (May 4, 2006)

Considering that Germany initiated hostilities and commited some of the worst atrocities known in western civilization, they have no moral claim to demand apologies.

The wars been over for 61 years now. No apologies are needed.


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## elmilitaro (May 4, 2006)

I agree.


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## Hop (May 4, 2006)

> The bombings was just pure murder, and the bombing on Dredsen was just bad very bad,



As already pointed out, this "pure murder" was a tactic of war developed by the Germans. As Harris put it:

"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a dozen other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind."

Britain and France were eager at the start of the war to refrain from Bombing. They held back when Germany bombed Polish cities. They held back when Germany bombed Norwegian cities. Only when Germany bombed western European cities did they begin to bomb Germany at all, and then they restricted it to military targets. Not until after about 20,000 Britions had been killed in terror raids on British cities did Britain begin to do the same to Germany.

I've little sympathy for those who began a particular way of war, and then cry foul when their enemies take it up with more success.



> at least the yanks had some guts doing day raids.



About 55,000 RAF Bomber Command crewmen died on operations. That's about 45% of all Bomber Command aircrew. A crewman had more chance of being killed that surviving without injury.

In total, 45% were killed, 8% taken prisoner, 7% wounded and 40% survived unharmed. And every one volunteered for aircrew duty.

They were certainly not lacking in guts.


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## syscom3 (May 4, 2006)

Funny how the Germans that complain about Dresden conveniently ignore that only 50 miles away, the SS were force marching jews that had survived Auschweitz to other prison camps. And those SS guards had no qualms about killing on the spot anyone who fell behind.

Like I said, the wars over. The people who were in positions of power have all succombed to time. I hold nothing against the Germans for what happened, and I expect they keep their mouths shut over whatever happened to them.


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## lesofprimus (May 4, 2006)

Amen to that....


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## Gnomey (May 5, 2006)

Yep. Very true syscom and Hop, the Germans were just receiving the same treatment that they had given to London, Rotterdam etc, just on a larger scale. As Goering said at the start of the war that no enemy planes would fly over Berlin/the Reich or you can call me broom. British planes had overflown the Riech before the end of 1939...


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## ozumn (May 5, 2006)

what cmon the raid on Dredsden had nothing to do how the war was going, the war was going to en realy soon everyone knew that, and i think its funny well not fun but there where some bomber crew captured and killed by german civ, them civ got executed after the war, wtf.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 5, 2006)

ozumn said:


> what cmon the raid on Dredsden had nothing to do how the war was going, the war was going to en realy soon everyone knew that, and i think its funny well not fun but there where some bomber crew captured and killed by german civ, them civ got executed after the war, wtf.


 And bombing London during the Blitz and lobbing V2s on civilian targets had nothing to do with the military outcome of the war either. There's an old saying "Payback's a b*tch." I'm sure there was at least one participant in the raid whose family was killed during the Blitz - I'm sure that guy had no remorse seeing Dresden burning to the ground......

BTW a Chinese woman who survived the Japanese "Rape of Nanking" was interviewed during the 50th anniversary of the atomic bombings, said she wished the US would of firebombed more of Japan and dropped a few more atomic bombs.....


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## evangilder (May 5, 2006)

You think it's funny that a combatant is killed by an angry mob? Do you think that this act should go unpunished? A downed enemy airman is a POW and protected by the Geneva Convention. Civilians killing bomber crewmen are committing murder, plain and simple.


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## plan_D (May 5, 2006)

The Luftwaffe recognised this, and most Luftwaffe servicemen would take every oppurtunity to protect Allied airmen that fell into their hands. Hubert Zemke was saved by his escort who threatened the angry mob with his pistol as they attempted to get at Zemke. 

Once in the hands of the enemy, you are a PoW. Not a prisoner for crimes committed, but for simply doing your job on the "wrong" side of the war. Killing these people was murder, and murderers should be punished to the full extent of the law.


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## Udet (May 5, 2006)

Prince Plan_D of SouthYorkshire is correct when saying many Luftwaffe personnel tried to protect downed enemy airmen falling into their hands.

Not all of them though; there were many German pilots angry at seeing USAAF fighters shooting German pilots hanging in their parachutes. Many times the americans also tried to straf them once they had hit the ground. 

Apparently, a large number of German pilots from the latest generation (1944) sought revenge when reaching service during that bloody year. There were many times when USAAF fighter pilots got gunned down by German fighter pilots as well.

Not a coincidence when I hear USAAF vets telling me that the German pilots of the latest phase of the war were "utterly agressive bastards".

Please note that I am not trying to open a debate as to whether shooting at parachuting pilots is legal or not. I am just bringing on opinions that showed there were German pilots who were furious because of that, and simply resorted to kill americans whenever they could.

In fact the Germans were countless times better at treating USA and UK PoW´s than the guys of both nations were at treating the German ones when the war ended.


I have had the chance of knowing of a Hungarian veteran of the war that still referrs to the USAAF pilots as "criminals" for he himself witnessed Mustangs straffing columns of civilians fleeing from the advancing red army.

Whenever any of those pilots gunning helpless and shocked civilians got shot down near the spot, perhaps by a German or Hungatian pilot, some of them met real painful and terrible deaths.


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## syscom3 (May 5, 2006)

Udet, the german people were lucky they got off so lightly. If justice was truely served, Germany would have been systematically dismembered with anything of commercial or industrial value removed and sent as reperations to the tens of millions of victims.

Good thing mercy was shown to them.

And Ozum, the war continued for 2 1/2 months longer, with tens of thousands of additional dead. The Nazi's had every opportunity to begin surrender negotiations and if they thought they could still fight to the end, well tough luck.

Germany and Japan sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 5, 2006)

ozumn said:


> The bombings was just pure murder, and the bombing on Dredsen was just bad very bad, atleast the yanks had some guts doing day raids.



adler's right that's absurd, Dresden was a perfectly legitimate military target, we were at war what did you really respect, the germans bombed us by night too! and how is dropping a bomb by night any different to doing it by day?


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## Udet (May 5, 2006)

deleted.


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## lesofprimus (May 5, 2006)

> Germany and Japan sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.


Bottom line, this is the purest truth....


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## evangilder (May 6, 2006)

yup


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 6, 2006)

I think I am going to have to stay out of this conversation here because there are just people here that have no fricking clue what they are talking about. 

Les, syscom I agree with you that Germany reaped the benifits of the Marschal plan and I agree that Germany has no right to complain.

Now for the part that I dont agree about and this is for those that are talking about Germans demanding apologies. If you really think that the German people/government is demanding apologies then you have no clue. Not very many do, the Germans know what they did in WW2 and are trying to move on with there lives. The German people of today had nothing to do with what happened in WW2. Yes there are some that hold on to the past and complain about Dresden but you know what, there are people in every country that complain about the past; The African Americans in the United States for example. Should these things be forgoten? Ofcourse not however what I am trying to say is for those that make just subtle comments about this, learn your damn facts first.

There now I will leave this particaluler conversation alone.


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## syscom3 (May 6, 2006)

Well said DerAdler. Its probably a bunch of leftist rabble rousers who are bloviating about it.

By the way, is "particaluler" a German word? heheheheheh


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## Soren (May 6, 2006)

Yep, well said Adler. 

Don't ever completely trust what is said in the newspaper !


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 7, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> By the way, is "particaluler" a German word? heheheheheh


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## wmaxt (May 8, 2006)

I think Adler is right about this, the average German knows about both the causes of the war and the aftermath and is just moving on. 

The part I have some problems with is that the Japanese have cleaned up their teachings about the part they played and the things they did in WWII, and if the reports I've heard are correct, are teaching that they were the victims.

In my mind WWII happened, its over but we should never exploit, repeat or forget not only what happened but why it happened.

wmaxt


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## Hunter368 (May 8, 2006)

wmaxt said:


> I think Adler is right about this, the average German knows about both the causes of the war and the aftermath and is just moving on.
> 
> The part I have some problems with is that the Japanese have cleaned up their teachings about the part they played and the things they did in WWII, and if the reports I've heard are correct, are teaching that they were the victims.
> 
> ...



Not sure if that is true or not about the Japanese, I would like to know more details if anyone can provide them.I would not be surprised if it was true. The one comment I would add to this:

Few people can or will admit when they are wrong, never mind a nation heavily based on an old honor code that does not forgive failure or dishonor.

Japanese culture (in WW2 era) was very different to Europe's or North America's. It is hard for us to understand their way of thinking (ie suicide, Kamikaze, very very strict command structure). Bushido "Way of the Warrior" is a very strange code for a European or North American to follow or relate to. It is interesting to study.


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## Erich (May 8, 2006)

well gang I think this thread has run amuck and is now going nowhere ......

truth be told, Germany and Japan deserved what they received in their turn. I admit it freely knowing perfectly well that I had relatives die during the war and relatives strafed during the Chemnitz/Dresden operations in Feb. 45 Germany wants to forget all of this horror except for a memorial or two, let's leave this be


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 9, 2006)

I agree Erich.


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## elmilitaro (May 9, 2006)

Amen.


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