# P-38 Mods



## Lightning Guy (Jan 22, 2005)

Here are some pictures of some of the ground attack modifications made to the P-38.


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## plan_D (Jan 22, 2005)

Nice pictures. I see you have finally got the scanner.


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 23, 2005)

The pic of the P-38 with bombs is the only one like it I have ever seen. It was supposed to have been a fairly common mod in the ETO and MTO.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 23, 2005)

Nice pictures LG! 8) I have seen that picture of the bomb arrangement several times before. The cockpit of the 75mm cannon Ground Attack one looks a bit like that of the Messerschmitt Me-410.


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## DaveB.inVa (Jan 27, 2005)

Did they ever get around to building a 75mm cannon equipped P-38?

I noticed the nosewheel lays on its side too. The Me-262 version with the 50mm cannon had to do that as well.


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 27, 2005)

It was never built. As a matter of fact, Kelly Johnson wasn't even aware that the design had even been attempted until he was informed of it by author Warren Bodie.


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## Rafe35 (Feb 3, 2005)

So? Uknown model for P-38? Was wondering that first picture look like P-38L?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 3, 2005)

wow rafe where have you been all this time??


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 4, 2005)

Yeah welcome back mate! 8) Everyone is making a comeback! 

That certainly appears to be an L yes Rafe, the chin radiators seem to give it away as the appear to be slightly narrower on the J and less prominent on earlier models...


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## Rafe35 (Feb 5, 2005)

Hi guys! It's been a while! 

Thanks for the answer, Cheddar Cheese 

BTW, You guys sigs are awesome.


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 6, 2005)

Thanks, good to have you back 8) Where have you been?


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## Rafe35 (Feb 7, 2005)

Well, Where the heck I been? lol

I have been doing alot things (Like Sugery, College, Life) that kept me off the internet for little while and right now, I'm so back because I have alot good free time around here. So, It's good to be back, CC.  Thanks for asking.


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## Grampa (Feb 7, 2005)

I have heard that someone hade a idea of suggest a modification to the P-38 by replace those 2 Allisons-engins whit Rolls-Royce instead. Like similare whit the P-51 Mustag whitc created a greate succesfull plane. But the idea of Rolls-Royce powered P-38 did never build, I wonder why they newer tested that idea and I also wonder what performance it could have.


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## Nonskimmer (Feb 7, 2005)

Rafe35 said:


> I have been doing alot things (Like Sugery, College, Life) that kept me off the internet for little while...



You have a life? What's that like, anyway?


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## plan_D (Feb 7, 2005)

They did test the P-38 with Merlins, I think, but found the performance to not be greatly enhanced.


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## evangilder (Feb 7, 2005)

No, the P-38 was not tested with Merlins. It was too much of a modification to do so.


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## plan_D (Feb 7, 2005)

Okay, maybe they reckoned it wouldn't do much..


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 7, 2005)

Nah it wouldnt have done....the Allisons done the job well enough.


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## Grampa (Feb 7, 2005)

One way to find how the Merlin-powered P-38 could theoretical have performed is to look at the P-51 Mustang. The P-51 in early version had the Allison-engine and later it then convert whit the Merlin-engine, could someone tell what difference had those 2 version of Mustang have for performance. Would that help us give a hint of how Merlin-engined P-38 would be?


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## plan_D (Feb 7, 2005)

No because (don't quote me on this) I think the Allisons in the P-38 were super-charged, those on the P-51 were not. The Merlin was super-charged, two stage, I believe..that's why it was better.


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## DaveB.inVa (Feb 18, 2005)

The difference is in the induction sytem. Just because the P-51 had such a huge jump in performance was NOT because a Merlin simply was stuffed in there in place of an Allison.

Heres something I wrote a while back, its a bit long but it does explain the P-51 Allison/Merlin performance gap!!

"A lot has been written about the Merlin and the Allison, namely that the Merlin was a much more powerful engine. When in fact it was not! The Allison and the Merlin were both closely matched in displacement and at sea level and up to about 10000' they both had very similar power levels!!

Up higher than 10000' you MUST consider the induction system. Most Allison's like the ones in the P-39, P-40 and early P-51's had just a single stage supercharger. Most Merlin's like used in later P-51's, Spitfires and Lancasters had a two speed two stage supercharger. This makes a world of difference!!!

Once the Merlin got above a certain altitude the supercharger on the Merlin would shift into high blower. This greatly increases power at altitude... not because its a Merlin... but because you have more air!

The P-38 was an exception to the Allison's mentioned above. The reason was because it has a turbocharger feeding the Allison in addition to its own engine mounted single stage supercharger. This is a more flexible system than the two speed two stage setup could be. You can regulate the amount of turbo boost much more easily than you can with a two speed two stage supercharger. Using a turbo also provides a seamless level of power from sealevel all the way up to rated altitude.

This was not so with the two speed two stage supercharger used with the Merlin. As the aircraft got to a certain altitude the low blower speed would begin to lose power. Sometime at a little higher altitiude the supercharger would shift into high blower. This was a fairly violent operation, but because it did increase the speed of the blower you will make more power because your now getting more air.

Later Allisons used a two speed two stage supercharger and these could definatley run with a two speed two stage Merlin at high altitudes!

You also have to compare apples to apples here. There were different versions of each engine. For instance most Allisons had a single stage supercharger that in the case of the P-38 was supplemented by a turbocharger. While the P-51 and most Merlins used a two speed two stage supercharger.

However there were single stage Merlins out there too for instance the P-40F had a single stage two speed Merlin producing 1300hp takeoff while the Allison engined P-40K produced at the exact same time made 1325hp takeoff.

Thats the closest comparison between the two I know of. The induction was similar and for takeoff both were making close to the same numbers.

There were later versions of the Allison equipped with two speed two stage superchargers that made 1700hp at altitude, these were used in later versions of the P-82 Twin Mustang as well as the XP-51J . In contrast the Merlins with a two speed two stage supercharger used in the P-51B/C produced 1450hp and the P-51D made 1695hp at altitude.

The Germans used a different system than the Allies that was slightly superior to the two speed two stage supercharger but not as great as using a turbocharger. On DB 601s and 605s they used a single stage vairable speed supercharger. Speed was varied by a viscous coupling. So at low altitudes they could have a high slip and as altitude increased slip would be reduced to produce higher supercharger speeds for more power. This was a seamless operation for them as well!

So Ill say it again. It was NOT the Merlin in its self that was so great. It WAS the two speed two stage supercharger that made the Merlin so great.

This is a fact, if you can give ANY engine the amount of air it requires to make its rated power and can cool it effectively you can make its rated power at any realistic altitude!

The reason the Allison wasnt able to make its rated power at 30000' was because it couldnt get enough air. The Merlin could get enough air!

If the Allison could get the same amount of air as the Merlin at 30000' then Im sure today that the Merlin would seem much less mystical... it would just be another engine."


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## P51ace 16 (Feb 18, 2005)

Yes I Agree Im only thirteen but the merlin was good at all altitudes but the allison was rocknrollen at low altitudes therfre not very good for escorts but good in low altitude dogfights.


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## DaveB.inVa (Feb 18, 2005)

I don't think you read my post closely enough.


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## P51ace 16 (Feb 18, 2005)

Dude I agree Those Bomber pilots and crews had some balls but sitting by yourself in a cockpit thinking how am I going to protect these guys.
Plus there is the fact that these bomber pilots have almost no gunnery (those machine guns have almost no effect due to theirlimited range of motion)  so it is in his hands


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## P51ace 16 (Feb 18, 2005)

Dude I agree Those Bomber pilots and crews had some balls but sitting by yourself in a cockpit thinking how am I going to protect these guys.
Plus there is the fact that these bomber pilots have almost no gunnery (those machine guns have almost no effect due to theirlimited range of motion)  so it is in his hands


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 19, 2005)

dude if the engine can't even get enough air that's not a good engine............


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## P51ace 16 (Feb 19, 2005)

Look with the allison would make it a good tank buster and strafe component


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## mosquitoman (Feb 19, 2005)

The Allison is inline, not as tough as a radial engine which is needed for protection against flak at those low levels


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## P51ace 16 (Feb 19, 2005)

Yeah it didnt have the horse power but that radial was prone to Breakage
The inline was easier to fix.


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## P51ace 16 (Feb 19, 2005)




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## cheddar cheese (Feb 19, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> dude if the engine can't even get enough air that's not a good engine............



All a supercharger does is force air into the engine quicker, its not a case of how much is is going in, just how fast its going in


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## DaveB.inVa (Feb 19, 2005)

What I was trying to get at was that the Merlin was getting more air because of the two speed two stage supercharger. Give the Allison a two speed two stage supercharger and the performance gap changes radically!

Its not about the engine its self its about getting it air.


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