# Ditching



## billrunnels (Jan 7, 2018)

While at Crew Assembly training at Gulfport, MS, we had two training sessions on ditching. To make the experience as real as possible, they mounted the body of a B-17, with cropped wings, on some type of unit that would allow the aircraft to start sinking, at the start of the drill, and placed it in a rather large pond. This was a bathing suit drill. All but the pilot and copilot would set in two rows on the floor, backs to the forward bulkhead, of the radio room. My assignment was to release the overhead hatch, exit the aircraft and secure the life rafts. The pilots got out through their side windows. The radio operator brought certain radio equipment. The drills were timed. We were able to exit and be in the life rafts free of the aircraft in a matter of seconds. Thank goodness we never had to ditch in real time but we were prepared should the need arise.

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## Crimea_River (Jan 7, 2018)

Interesting. How cold was the water?


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## billrunnels (Jan 7, 2018)

Crimea_River said:


> Interesting. How cold was the water?


Mississippi in late November, a little cool However, if we did everything as it should be done we didn't get to wet.

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## Crimea_River (Jan 7, 2018)

Well, that's better preparation for the Channel or North Sea than Ft. Lauderdale then.

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## pbehn (Jan 7, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> While at Crew Assembly training at Gulfport, MS, we had two training sessions on ditching. To make the experience as real as possible, they mounted the body of a B-17, with cropped wings, on some type of unit that would allow the aircraft to start sinking, at the start of the drill, and placed it in a rather large pond. This was a bathing suit drill. All but the pilot and copilot would sat in two rows on the floor, backs to the forward bulkhead, of the radio room. My assignment was to release the overhead hatch, exit the aircraft and secure the life rafts. The pilots got out through their side windows. The radio operator brought certain radio equipment. The drills were timed. We were able to exit and be in the life rafts free of the aircraft in a matter of seconds. Thank goodness we never had to ditch in real time but we were prepared should the need arise.


Bill, great post, you got in on the ground floor of many aviation safety measures. To work off shore in the UK everyone has to undergo a BOSIET course (Basic offshore safety induction and emergency training) which includes a simulated helicopter immersion, very similar to what you describe.

bosiet - Bing video

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## mikewint (Jan 7, 2018)

Sans hitting the water at 120mph or so


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## Airframes (Jan 11, 2018)

The thought of having to ditch anywhere is bad enough, but those who had to do it in the Channel or the North Sea, and survived, must have had a lot of luck on their side.
One crew of a He-111, shot down off the north east coast of England in August 1940, were extremely lucky. They survived the ditching and around 24 hours in their dinghy, and were eventually rescued by a Luftwaffe float plane, only to be downed by a Hudson, and spend another long time clinging to the sinking float plane, before eventual rescue, some 48+ hours after the initial ditching in the North Sea !
Having been swimming in the North Sea in summer, I can verify that, even at the beach, the water is bl**dy cold !

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## billrunnels (Jan 11, 2018)

Airframes said:


> The thought of having to ditch anywhere is bad enough, but those who had to do it in the Channel or the North Sea, and survived, must have had a lot of luck on their side.
> One crew of a He-111, shot down off the north east coast of England in August 1940, were extremely lucky. They survived the ditching and around 24 hours in their dinghy, and were eventually rescued by a Luftwaffe float plane, only to be downed by a Hudson, and spend another long time clinging to the sinking float plane, before eventual rescue, some 48+ hours after the initial ditching in the North Sea !
> Having been swimming in the North Sea in summer, I can verify that, even at the beach, the water is bl**dy cold ![/QUO
> I can't imagine the discomfort that crew experienced. Lucky to be alive.

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## pbehn (Jan 11, 2018)

If you go to the coast in North East England people surf on boards almost all year round but even in summer they wear wet suits. In good conditions most fit people are lucky to survive more than 4 hours in the water in summer.


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## billrunnels (Jan 11, 2018)

pbehn said:


> If you go to the coast in North East England people surf on boards almost all year round but even in summer they wear wet suits. In good conditions most fit people are lucky to survive more than 4 hours in the water in summer.


The water is to cold for me


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## billrunnels (Jan 11, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> The water is to cold for me



Talking about the North Sea brings to mind the German Sub Pens in the Bergen area. They sure were fortified and remained in place until the end of the war.


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## pbehn (Jan 11, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> The water is to cold for me


Bill, I was a strong swimmer in my youth, one time I went swimming in the sea at a local place called Saltburn, after about ten minutes I sensed that I was losing feeling in my legs, started to swim back to the shore line (about 30 yards) by the time I got there my legs were completely dead. I was a young and skinny kid, that is what happens in minutes, how some people survive in those waters I find hard to understand but there are some ( a small brave few) who go in the sea every day and generally live long healthy lives. They say it is good for the circulation but it didn't feel like that to me at the time.

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## mikewint (Jan 11, 2018)



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## pbehn (Jan 11, 2018)

mikewint said:


> View attachment 478888


Is that in water or still air Mike? I presume it is for a fit adult?


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## javlin (Jan 11, 2018)

Bill that sounds like you guys were in the Back Bay goes from Ocean Springs W to Gulfport there's a peninsula between the Bay and the GOM 15-20 miles long I can think of another reason that November would be good month back there Gators

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## billrunnels (Jan 11, 2018)

javlin said:


> Bill that sounds like you guys were in the Back Bay goes from Ocean Springs W to Gulfport there's a peninsula between the Bay and the GOM 15-20 miles long I can think of another reason that November would be good month back there Gators


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## billrunnels (Jan 11, 2018)

pbehn said:


> Bill, I was a strong swimmer in my youth, one time I went swimming in the sea at a local place called Saltburn, after about ten minutes I sensed that I was losing feeling in my legs, started to swim back to the shore line (about 30 yards) by the time I got there my legs were completely dead. I was a young and skinny kid, that is what happens in minutes, how some people survive in those waters I find hard to understand but there are some ( a small brave few) who go in the sea every day and generally live long healthy lives. They say it is good for the circulation but it didn't feel like that to me at the time.


The only swimming I did while in the UK was in the Bedford YMCA swimming pool

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## mikewint (Jan 12, 2018)

pbehn said:


> s that in water or still air Mike? I presume it is for a fit adult?



Should have done a better job with labels. That is full body water immersion as air is a very poor conductor of heat. Moving air will do a better job carrying heat energy away but even so nothing like water. Wind chill is a measure of how much colder if FEELS to human skin so an air temperature of 30F FEELS like 25F in a 5mph wind. Upping that to 20mph feels like 17F. 
Roughly water conducts heat 25 times faster than air
*Stage Core Temperature Signs & Symptoms 
Mild Hypothermia *99º - 97ºF Normal, shivering can begin
97º - 95ºF Cold sensation, goose bumps, unable to perform complex tasks with hands, shiver can be mild to severe, hands numb
*Moderate Hypothermia *95º - 93ºF Shivering, intense, muscle incoordination becomes apparent, movements slow and labored, stumbling pace, mild confusion, may appear alert. Use sobriety test, if unable to walk a 30 foot straight line, the person is hypothermic.
93º - 90ºF Violent shivering persists, difficulty speaking, sluggish thinking, amnesia starts to appear, gross muscle movements sluggish, unable to use hands, stumbles frequently, difficulty speaking, signs of depression, withdrawn.
*Severe Hypothermia *90º - 86ºF Shivering stops, exposed skin blue of puffy, muscle coordination very poor, inability to walk, confusion, incoherent/irrational behavior, but may be able to maintain posture and appearance of awareness

86º - 82ºF Muscle rigidity, semiconscious, stupor, loss of awareness of others, pulse and respiration rate decrease, possible heart fibrillation
82º - 78ºF Unconscious, heart beat and respiration erratic, pulse may not be palpable

78º - 75ºF Pulmonary edema, cardiac and respiratory failure,death. Death may occur before this temperature is reached.

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## Gnomey (Jan 12, 2018)

Great stuff Bill! Just as well it was never needed.


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## Tim Moore (Feb 24, 2018)

As a Cardiovascular surgeon, we use hypothermia routinely in our complex cases. Cooling the patient reduces the metabolic rate and demands for oxygen. We use moderate hypothermia, 25-30 degrees Celsius, to protect the heart during long and difficult cases. We use deep hypothermia, 13-16 degrees Celsius, when we have to completely shut off the heart-lung machine for a while to reconstruct the aorta at the point where it gives off the branches to the brain. At those temperatures, we can cease all circulation to the body and brain for about 30-45 minutes to get the work done. Much of the early work done on hypothermia in heart surgery was based on the cruel Nazi experiments done on cold water immersion on prisoners to predict Luftwaffe pilot survival in the North Sea.

Rarely, we can use the heart lung machine to warm someone up who has been brought in with severe hypothermia, not a common occurence here in Florida.

Only survival data I can find on WWII ditching was 38% survival for B-17 ditching and 27% survival for B-24’s. A total of 4,361 8th AF crew ditched during the war, 1,538 survived, for an overall 35% chance of survival.

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## billrunnels (Feb 24, 2018)

Tim Moore said:


> As a Cardiovascular surgeon, we use hypothermia routinely in our complex cases. Cooling the patient reduces the metabolic rate and demands for oxygen. We use moderate hypothermia, 25-30 degrees Celsius, to protect the heart during long and difficult cases. We use deep hypothermia, 13-16 degrees Celsius, when we have to completely shut off the heart-lung machine for a while to reconstruct the aorta at the point where it gives off the branches to the brain. At those temperatures, we can cease all circulation to the body and brain for about 30-45 minutes to get the work done. Much of the early work done on hypothermia in heart surgery was based on the cruel Nazi experiments done on cold water immersion on prisoners to predict Luftwaffe pilot survival in the North Sea.
> 
> Rarely, we can use the heart lung machine to warm someone up who has been brought in with severe hypothermia, not a common occurence here in Florida.
> 
> Only survival data I can find on WWII ditching was 38% survival for B-17 ditching and 27% survival for B-24’s. A total of 4,361 8th AF crew ditched during the war, 1,538 survived, for an overall 35% chance of survival.


Thanks for the informative information. Regarding the B-17 verses B-24 survival percentages, the larger B-17 wing enabled a longer float time and probably survived the impact better than the Davis Wing on the B-24.


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## mikewint (Feb 24, 2018)

Tim Moore said:


> As a Cardiovascular surgeon


CHOOL!!! How'd you like to rebuild a old and stiff (stenosis) aortic valve. Discount naturally


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## Tim Moore (Feb 24, 2018)

mikewint said:


> CHOOL!!! How'd you like to rebuild a old and stiff (stenosis) aortic valve. Discount naturally


Sorry, no rebuild. Have to replace it.


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## pbehn (Feb 24, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> Thanks for the informative information. Regarding the B-17 verses B-24 survival percentages, the larger B-17 wing enabled a longer float time and probably survived the impact better than the Davis Wing on the B-24.


But with respect Bill, the B 24 was used extensively on maritime missions ASW and ditching in the mid Atlantic was a different proposition to the North Sea, the statistics are very limited.


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## billrunnels (Feb 24, 2018)

pbehn said:


> But with respect Bill, the B 24 was used extensively on maritime missions ASW and ditching in the mid Atlantic was a different proposition to the North Sea, the statistics are very limited.


I base my opinion on two factors. The B-24 Davis Wing was long, narrow and attached to the frame of the aircraft. The B-17 wing was wide and extended through the frame of the aircraft.

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## pbehn (Feb 24, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> I base my opinion on two factors. The B-24 Davis Wing was long, narrow and attached to the frame of the aircraft. The B-17 wing was wide and extended through the frame of the aircraft.


I would say being low winged would be an advantage when ditching compared to a B 24, I was just saying that the planes had different roles and theatres in some respects so the bare statistics may not tell the whole story.

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