# M.I.5/M.I.6/SAS



## Maestro (Nov 22, 2005)

Greetings ladies and gentlemen.

I'm lost with British Intelligence. Can someone help ? What's the difference between the M.I.5, the M.I.6 and the SAS ?

I know the M.I.5 is also called the "Home Office" and is in charge of intelligence (*M*ilitary *I*ntelligence bureau number *5*), but what's the difference with the M.I.6 (if ever it _really_ exist) ?

I read on an other thread that SAS also do Intelligence work. So what's the difference between those three Corps ?


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## 102first_hussars (Nov 22, 2005)

The SAS has nothing to do with those other guys, The SAS Special Air Service are elite airbourne comandos, whereas the others are intelligience
agency's.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 22, 2005)

Exactly. The SAS are like the Navy Seals or Special Forces of the United States and the GSG9 of Germany. Military Elite Special Operations Forces. MI6 is like the CIA from the United States.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 22, 2005)

As I understand it, MI5 is responsible for domestic security and counter-espionage while MI6 is the primary foreign intelligence service. 

Anyone?


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## lesofprimus (Nov 22, 2005)

That about sums it up, correctly...


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## Gnomey (Nov 22, 2005)

Yeah that is how it goes NS.


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## trackend (Nov 22, 2005)

After you mentioned the SAS I noticed at the top of the page a pop up online SAS course, I thought that must be why the Bravo two zero episode was such a cock up if The Regiment these days does its training online. 
Fortunately it's not the same SAS but a stats course


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 22, 2005)

i would also like to point out at this point that the SAS are the world's most elite fighting unit


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 22, 2005)

Other than the SBS, but thats another story


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## Maestro (Nov 22, 2005)

Oh... Thanks for the help.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 22, 2005)

> i would also like to point out at this point that the SAS are the world's most elite fighting unit





> Other than the SBS, but thats another story


I disagree.... I believe the Israeli Special Forces are probably the most elite, followed quite closely by the US Navy SEALs... The SAS, while extremely effective and highly trained, are not quite as elite as the first two...

Remember tho, the differences are quite miniscule... A normal everyday Joe like urselves would not be able to tell the difference.... Its all about the tempo at which certain services operate... 

The Israelis, obviously, operate at a tempo that no other special services unit operate at...

The thing with Special Warfare types is that the longer and harder they serve, the better and more elite they are....


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## 102first_hussars (Nov 22, 2005)

I agree on certain aspects of what your saying but you really cant compare them, SF from around the world are usually brought up for a mainly specific purpose, SEALs gotta be Stealthy, SAS have to be quick and unforgiving(Same goes for Delta Force), JTF-2 well they take alot after SAS but we add a Canadian ingredient to it, 

Isreal's army is specifacly designed for to handle its own problems with the PLO, so really how would those tactics play out on UN training in say Europe?, The point is they are different so its hard to compare.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 23, 2005)

I was forgetting about the Israeli's les, I remember you speaking of them a while back...


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## evangilder (Nov 23, 2005)

I would agree with Les. The Israelis don't mess around, they can't afford to.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2005)

Im with Les on this also. The Isrealis take shit from no one and there SF have lots of training and are constantly on there toes. They are the most elite in my opinion also.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 23, 2005)

102first_hussars said:


> JTF-2 well they take alot after SAS but we add a Canadian ingredient to it


I certainly wouldn't know for sure or anything, but I thought JTF 2 was slightly more focused towards counter-terrorism. More like the Delta Force or the SBS than the SAS, in terms of their more specialized training. I know the boys in JTF are no slouches, but I didn't think they had their fingers in as many pies so to speak as the SEALs or the SAS. Like I say though, I'd be the last to know much about JTF 2, beyond the "official" information.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2005)

I am in the same boat as you NS, but I seem to agree with you.


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## 102first_hussars (Nov 23, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> 102first_hussars said:
> 
> 
> > JTF-2 well they take alot after SAS but we add a Canadian ingredient to it
> ...




I wasnt thinking I meant to say that alot of our tradition takes after the old Canadian Airbourne.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 23, 2005)

How do you mean?


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## 102first_hussars (Nov 23, 2005)

The Biggest is that the primary means of deployment is by Parachuting (Bailing out) of either a Herc or a Griffon, the difference JTF-2 has between other special forces is we can operate in Platoons and still maintain a low profile and wth the Initiative, and you said we are mainly Anti-terrorist, not necessarly, we did target designations for the CF-18's in Kosovo, We also trained Himalayin Soldiers to fight communist rebels. 

Not my guys, but JTF-2 was also working on raiding the Native Reserve Kanasataki for their illegal smuggling of goods to the states.

We have to be capable of many roles as SF, since Canada has only one major branch.

I dont even think the Navy has one, the whole crew is qualified to do ship boardings etc, right?- oh you realise I have to kill you now, since Ive told you too much?


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## trackend (Nov 24, 2005)

Its very hard to qauntify which force is better because 99% of there work is unknown . My money would be on The Regiment but as they hate any publicity It can only be speculation. I have known one guy who was a member in the 80's but what info he imparted was very limited. The Iranian Embassy Siege, those silly books and TV programs etc, did the one thing they hate (bring them to the attention of the public).


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 24, 2005)

102first_hussars said:


> The Biggest is that the primary means of deployment is by Parachuting (Bailing out) of either a Herc or a Griffon, the difference JTF-2 has between other special forces is we can operate in Platoons and still maintain a low profile and wth the Initiative, and you said we are mainly Anti-terrorist, not necessarly, we did target designations for the CF-18's in Kosovo, We also trained Himalayin Soldiers to fight communist rebels.



Sounds to me your more like the Green Beret Special Forces. Do you think that JTF-2 is the only group that jumps out of planes when they deploy and has a low profile.

Lets see the SEALs either come in on a submarine or they HALO Jump (Yes that is jumping out of planes), and they are in small teams so that sounds like a really low profile to me.

The Green Berets lets see they jump out of Hercs pretty much on all of there deployments and in small teams also, so as to keep a low profile. Also they do the exact same things that JTF-2 does. They do anti terrorism, they do anti insurgency, they do spotting for Airforce Jets, and they train army's from other countries. They helped "advice" the South Vietmanese army in Vietnam, and they are currently training soldiers in Africa and South America.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 24, 2005)

102first_hussars said:


> I dont even think the Navy has one, the whole crew is qualified to do ship boardings etc, right?- oh you realise I have to kill you now, since Ive told you too much?


Well since about 99 per cent of what you've just said is available on the DND site, you'd have to kill everyone who ever browsed the JTF 2 section. 

Not everyone on a ship is trained for boardings. I myself was on the boarding parties of two ships. It is specialty training, but naval boarding parties are hardly Special Forces. Christ, I wouldn't last 30 seconds on the JTF course. I doubt I'd even last 30 seconds into the screening process. 

And JTF means Joint Task Force, i.e. tri-service in this case. They draw personnel from all three services, not just the Army. I personally know of a few Navy clearance divers who went for it, along with one or two others, and I believe (although I'm not entirely certain) that some of them made it in. I'd imagine the best Air Force types for the training selection would be SAR Techs, but I wouldn't know.


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## 102first_hussars (Nov 24, 2005)

Adler said


> Sounds to me your more like the Green Beret Special Forces. Do you think that JTF-2 is the only group that jumps out of planes when they deploy and has a low profile.



That wasnt the point, I was explaining how they follow closely with our old airbourne Regiment, thats all.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 24, 2005)

Sure, but the regiments still have jump companies even though the Airborne Regiment is no more. We still have paratroops, just no more Airborne Regiment. 

Thank you Mister Chrétien.


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## 102first_hussars (Nov 24, 2005)

Yes I know that. but we are the pathetically undermanned replacement for them, 


Your Welcome Toronto.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 24, 2005)

102first_hussars said:


> I dont even think the Navy has one, the whole crew is qualified to do ship boardings etc, right?- oh you realise I have to kill you now, since Ive told you too much?



What is your point. Every ship in the US Navy has ship boarding teams that not special forces units. My buddy is a commo guy in the US Navy on a Destroyer and he is on the boarding team and recieved training for it. It is not really that big of a deal to be ship boarding qualified.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 24, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> ...ship boarding teams...not special forces units.


Quite right. I believe I said that. :-"


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## lesofprimus (Nov 24, 2005)

Yes u did, and it is not a big deal to be boarding qualified.... Ive done many ship boardings, and the biggest thing to remember is to watch for crossfire, always watching ur FOF....


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 24, 2005)

Boarding party duty kinda sucks, actually. Especially when it's just one boarding after another...after another...after another...day in...day out...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 24, 2005)

Sorry NS I was not trying to repeat what you said, it was a late posting. A very late posting. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.


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## plan_D (Nov 26, 2005)

You can't compare the special forces of the world today for the sole reason that the best learn from each other. The British forces and US forces both give each other suggestions, I know of quite a few circumstances where the SAS have taught the Delta Force a few minor things to help them in the field. One thing was how to pack their medical kits. Simple but helpful. 

Plus, as les said, they're all highly trained. It then comes down to personal combat experience that makes the individual more elite as time goes on. The training never ends in the military, especially not in the special forces. 

And the SAS never had time to mess around - they've been on counter-insurgency duty since they were formed in 1942, well almost. Most of it being down in South-East Asia, or Northern Ireland, and now Iraq. Although they did some in the Mid-East in 1950s and 60s. As well as all that we never get to hear about. 

And NS put it, the MI5 are home intelligence, the MI6 are foreign intelligence...the SAS do intelligence work ...but that's combat intelligence.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 26, 2005)

I agree they are all highly trained and well put together units. I would go as far as saying though that the Israeli (not sure what they call themselves) Special Forces, the SAS, Navy Seals and GSG9 are the best of the best in the world.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 26, 2005)

don't forget the SBS, the SAS but with canoes..........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 26, 2005)

Never head much about them so I dont know.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 26, 2005)

that's how stealthy they are  they do stuff in water.......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 26, 2005)

SEALs.....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 26, 2005)

no, they don't actually drown


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## lesofprimus (Nov 26, 2005)

Hey now.....

The Israeli Special forces are divided into Sayerets, with Sayeret Matkal being the definitve unit, the SEALs and SAS operators of Israel so to speak...

From Wikipedia:
Sayeret Matkal (Hebrew: סיירת מטכ"ל - General Staff Reconnaissance unit) is the elite special forces unit of the Israeli Defence Force. It was established in 1957 as Unit 269 by veterans of the Paratroopers Brigade, Unit 101 and the IDF's Intelligence Branch (Aman). Its main roles are counter terror, deep reconnaissance and intelligence gathering. The unit is modelled on the British SAS, and organizationally reports to Aman. Its nickname in the IDF is simply "The Unit". The unit's motto is "Who dares - Wins" (same as the SAS motto).


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 26, 2005)

Cool thanks for the info.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 26, 2005)

ppfff, couldn't even come up with their own motto


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## Clave (Nov 26, 2005)

I doubt there is a huge difference between the skill of any of the Special Forces round the world, but the SAS were there originals and get kudos form me for that...


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 27, 2005)

When did they remove the "He" from the SAS motto? Wasn't it always "He Who Dares Wins"?

Adler, isn't GSG-9 only supposed to operate within the borders of Germany? That was supposedly the reason for the creation of the KSK in 1995. They're not bound by that rule, and can look after German interests abroad. The first batch of them were trained by the SAS if I'm not mistaken. I'm not really sure who trained the first JTF guys in 1993.


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## plan_D (Nov 27, 2005)

The SAS lads train a lot of people. They're Britain's mercenaries.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> When did they remove the "He" from the SAS motto? Wasn't it always "He Who Dares Wins"?



I think that was actually Derek Trotters motto.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 27, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> When did they remove the "He" from the SAS motto? Wasn't it always "He Who Dares Wins"?
> 
> Adler, isn't GSG-9 only supposed to operate within the borders of Germany? That was supposedly the reason for the creation of the KSK in 1995. They're not bound by that rule, and can look after German interests abroad. The first batch of them were trained by the SAS if I'm not mistaken. I'm not really sure who trained the first JTF guys in 1993.



I worked with GSG-9 in Kosovo back in 2002 to 2003. Here is also an interesting tidbit that a lot of people dont probably know but I also talked to some GSG-9 in Baghdad last year.......

Just need to add something though. For the most part you are correct. The GSG-9 are under the Federal Border Police. The reason they are strickly only to be allowed to be used in the borders (the reason they were in Kosovo and Iraq was to protect German diplomats) is because of the fact that until recently Germany was not allowed to leave its borders and it military was only for national defense. The KSK was formed as a real Commando Unit in that sense.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 27, 2005)

I see. Cool.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 27, 2005)

I however have very little information on the KSK. I do not know what there main areas are. I believe it to be anti terrorist.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 27, 2005)

GSG-9 sounds to be a lot like what I know of JTF-2. Counter-terrorism, hostage rescue, and I know they've guarded Canadian diplomats abroad from time to time. Beyond that, I don't really know squat. I believe Hussars when he says they do a bit more though because like he said, they're the only true special forces unit in the Canadian Forces. The Army's commandos would be the next closest thing that I'm aware of.

Counter-terrorist duties within Canada used to be handled mainly by a subunit of the RCMP called the SERT, but they were stood down in 1993 when JTF-2 was formed.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 27, 2005)

That sounds about right.


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## 102first_hussars (Nov 27, 2005)

Clave said:


> I doubt there is a huge difference between the skill of any of the Special Forces round the world, but the SAS were there originals and get kudos form me for that...



I could be mistaken but Im pretty sure the first official SF group was the Canadian-American "Devils Brigade".


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 27, 2005)

Actually, I think the SAS was first. It was formed in 1941 I believe, in North Africa, whereas the First Special Service Force (Devil's Brigade) was formed in June of 1942. Plus, the Devil's Brigade was only a temporary idea anyway, not that it has to do with anything. They disbanded in January of 1945.


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## Maestro (Nov 27, 2005)

I think NS is right. I heard somewhere that the first commando unit was created in Britain by Colonel Dodley Clark during WW II (sorry if I made any mistake in his name).


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## plan_D (Nov 27, 2005)

I could throw a spanner into the works and mentioned the LRDG (Long Range Desert Group) who were formed before the SAS, and were a special desert recon group. Do we consider these special forces?


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## trackend (Nov 28, 2005)

Definatley the LRDG was an elite force D also around was the Kampfschwimmers Flottiglia Mezzi d'Assalto. 
And as you say D (Special Boat Section)


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## plan_D (Nov 28, 2005)

I think to define "Special Forces" would help in which were the first. After all, élite bands of warriors causing havoc amongst the enemy goes back to the Ancient times when organised conflict began. 

The LRDG were an amazing group of people. To travel hundreds of miles over desert during freezing nights, and boiling days while avoiding German patrols and without getting lost is almost unbelievable. It kind of downgrades their contribution when everyone knows them as a taxi service for the SAS.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 28, 2005)

I will agree and throw them all in the mix. I believe the first "real" Spec Ops unit though on a large scale was the SAS.


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## trackend (Nov 28, 2005)

I would say the LRDG where the first of the British WW2 elite forces as they where involved in combat missions in Sept 1940 When David Sterling was still in number 8 commando a year before he started the SAS in Nov 1941 after this the SAS did used the LRDG's expertise to get them to their missions behind enemy lines however before the SAS came on the scene with the normal patrol compliment of 40 men toting ten Lewis guns and numerous other weapons including Boyes,Bren's etc they by no means where ever just a taxi firm ending up with 300 men in their ranks carrying out anti Oasis raids, this caused the Italian armies major problems and some believe slowed its progress considerably.


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## plan_D (Nov 29, 2005)

Of course but most people who know of them think all they did was drive the SAS back and forth. I've seen it on loads of documentaries. With that said though that would be a hard enough job as it is.


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## 102first_hussars (Nov 29, 2005)

Oh speaking of SAS, I just watched the Movie Bravo two zero, that was some pretty hardcore sh*t they went through, I had no Idea they ended up as P.O.Ws


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## plan_D (Nov 29, 2005)

Let's be honest here, hussars, you have no idea about a lot of things. That "movie" is irritating, read the book it's a much better account. I suppose it's just the fact that I cannot stand that Sean Bean.


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## evangilder (Nov 29, 2005)

People who call the LRDG a taxi service for the SAS do not know their history. One of the members at our musuem is the son-in-law of one of the original LRDG guys. Quite an unbelievable group of guys.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2005)

plan_D said:


> Let's be honest here, hussars, you have no idea about a lot of things. That "movie" is irritating, read the book it's a much better account. I suppose it's just the fact that I cannot stand that Sean Bean.



Agreed the book is much better!


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## trackend (Nov 29, 2005)

Trouble is its a book about a cock up.


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## 102first_hussars (Nov 29, 2005)

plan_D said:


> Let's be honest here, hussars, you have no idea about a lot of things.




Are you trying to start an argument with me or are you just joking? I can rarely tell.


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## plan_D (Nov 30, 2005)

I was just being honest, hussars. 

evan, they would have a point though. The LRDG were used quite often as a taxi service for the SAS, but obviously only because of their expertise in desert recon. Who else could provide that service? Even the LRDG joked about being the desert taxi service.


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## trackend (Nov 30, 2005)

I took this at the IWM, a salvaged Chevy LRDG truck


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## Gnomey (Nov 30, 2005)

Nice pics Lee.


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## evangilder (Nov 30, 2005)

I'd say that truck has seen better days!


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## trackend (Nov 30, 2005)

True Eric.
It still aint done too bad considering the 40 odd years its stood out in the weather, freezing nights and baking days. A credit to Chevy dont you think?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 2, 2005)

Nice pics, interesting stuff.


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