# There are any Bf 109 K-4 in museums?



## Jenisch (Apr 3, 2012)

Hello, 

Think I already read somewhere that there's no know preserved aiframe of such Bf 109 variant. Anyone can confirm or refute this?

Thanks since now for the answers.


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## GregP (Apr 4, 2012)

There are no Me 109K's anywhere in museums at this time, and none being held for restoration to any public knowledge.

There may well be one or more in private hands. If so, the existence is not known at this time.


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## A4K (Apr 4, 2012)

Wonder what happened to the Bf 109K-6 tested in the US after the war? (Though I can guess...'daddy, where is that bulldozer going?')


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## stona (Apr 4, 2012)

They tested a Bf109K of any type in the USA after the war?
That's news to me.
Only one K-6 is known to have existed,tested at Rechlin in late 1944 and that certainly didn't end up in the US. The K-6 doesn't seem to have entered production before the end of the war.
Cheers
Steve


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## A4K (Apr 4, 2012)

From 'Die Grossen Luftschlachten des Zweiten Weltkriegs' (The Great Air Battles of the Second World War):

The caption reads: 'This Bf 109K-6, tested after the war in the USA, was a bomber destroyer'. As the photo is in the section showing full development of the Bf 109 design, the designation should be correct. Note the B-29 fuselage (sans wings) in the background.


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## Milosh (Apr 4, 2012)

That photo is of a G-10.
New Page 2


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## stona (Apr 4, 2012)

Milosh said:


> That photo is of a G-10.



Indeed,and sporting a hideous non-original camouflage.

At the end of the war there was not much interest in the Bf109 which was after all an old airframe with a well known engine. Only three made it post war to The US and were initially assigned "FE" (Foreign Evaluation) numbers. Two of them also went on to receive a "T2" number which indicated the Air Intelligence organisation in the standard USAAF/USAF organisation chart.

FE-122 Bf109G-10 (WNr.611943) Later T2-122 Went to Planes of Fame
FE-123 Bf109G-10 (Unknown) Later T2-123 Patterson AFB in 1950s,fate unknown. Probably scrapped.
FE-124 Bf109G-14 (Unknown) ................. Went to USAF museum.

Earlier a couple of F-4s and a G-6 were assessed,one I think came from the Russians. These were given "EB" numbers. "EB" cunningly stood for "Engineering Branch". Before the US entered the war the British sent some aircraft for assessment and analysis. Vultee did an excellent report on the Bf110 for example.

The British selected some aircraft from the areas they controlled and assigned them "USA" numbers for allocation to US Air Technical Intelligence. Tellingly not one Bf109 is included in the total. 
Confusingly some of these went to Watson's Whizzers and were assigned three digit numbers by them.For example, "USA 6" an Arado234B captured by the British in Denmark became Watson's Whizzer "303" and then "USN 121446". It's not surprising people get confused today! Others later received "FE" numbers.

Cheers
Steve


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## Siegfried (Apr 4, 2012)

A4K said:


> From 'Die Grossen Luftschlachten des Zweiten Weltkriegs' (The Great Air Battles of the Second World War):
> 
> The caption reads: 'This Bf 109K-6, tested after the war in the USA, was a bomber destroyer'. As the photo is in the section showing full development of the Bf 109 design, the designation should be correct. Note the B-29 fuselage (sans wings) in the background.
> 
> ...


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## T Bolt (Apr 4, 2012)

I wonder if that's this G-10 currently in the Air Force Museum?


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## stona (Apr 4, 2012)

The aircraft pictred is FE-123 which was probably scrapped.
FE-124 went to the USAFM and was exhibited with the fictitious werknummer 610824. I notice that The museum,who presumably know their stuff have it as a G-10 so who knows.

Noone (Prien,Rodeicke,Schmoll etc) has found any evidence that the K-6 went into production. No werknummer block has been found. The intention was to build the K-4 and K-6 in a 2:1 ratio. I'm not saying that none (apart from the one at Rechlin) were ever built,I'm just saying noone has found any!
Cheers
Steve


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## Jenisch (Apr 4, 2012)

Talking about the Bf 109 final development, I'm wondering why the Germans had three piston fighter aircraft being developed by the war's end. Bf 109 development, Fw 190 development and the Dornier 335. Ok, the Allies also had many aircraft, but what exactly were the LW plans, shut down the production of the Bf 109 when?


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## Siegfried (Apr 4, 2012)

Jenisch said:


> Talking about the Bf 109 final development, I'm wondering why the Germans had three piston fighter aircraft being developed by the war's end. Bf 109 development, Fw 190 development and the Dornier 335. Ok, the Allies also had many aircraft, but what exactly were the LW plans, shut down the production of the Bf 109 when?



Me 109 production was supposedly being shutdown after the Me 262 was up and running leaving just the Ta 152 and FW 190 but the Me 109 aircraft just kept hanging in there. The last version was likely to have been the Me 109K-14, essentially a K-4 with a DB605L engine (this had a two stage supercharger), a 4 bladed propellor and an oval engine intake to handle the higher flow rates of air. Me 109K4 likely would have received thin and perhaps scimitar propellors for greater speed at some point perhaps with perfection of the spring tabs servo tab ailerons to improved high speed roll rate.

Do 335 was a much more massive aircraft; a kind of insurance against jet failure while also capable of great range and speed. It also featured a bomb bay and could carry a second crew member for navigation and radar opperation. The Version with the DB605LA was likely good for around 490mph. It also was much more heavily armed than even the Me 262. By this stage of the war bomb aiming was either by radio navigation in most instances if that wass not possible via ntoss bombing sights like the TSA-2D

The lack of nose for mounting a centrimetric radar was overcome via the use of dielectric rod radiators radiating through the wing leading edges.


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## A4K (Apr 5, 2012)

Good stuff guys, bad mistake on the part of the book.

Seeing that port side view, she's definitely a G-10. The position of the fuel filler hatch confirms she's not a K-series aircraft, also the lack of undercarriage doors. 
The only other external difference AFAIK is the position of the fuselage access hatch, which isn't visible in this heavy paint job.


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## stona (Apr 5, 2012)

Siegfried is correct but it is difficult to be exact. The production plans changed frequently,almost every time there was a production meeting. At one time it was planned to build more than 12,000 K-4s with production continuing until March 1946.
In November 1944 the planned production of the K series at Mtt.Reg. stood at 3,598 aircraft to be delivered by July 1945. Erla was also to produce a further 2,894 K-4/R6s (all weather version) by April 1945. 2,820 of this version were also supposed to be built at WNF between May 1945 and March 1946. KOB were to produce 1,000 K-4s by June 1945 and 2,700 K-4/R6s by March 1946.
These late war production plans are pure fantasy. The reality was that a grand total of less than 1,800 Bf109Ks were built by the end of the war. With the exception of a handful at Erla (I only know of pictures of two) they were all built by Messerschmitt at Regensburg.
Cheers
Steve


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## stona (Apr 5, 2012)

A4K said:


> Good stuff guys, bad mistake on the part of the book.
> 
> Seeing that port side view, she's definitely a G-10. The position of the fuel filler hatch confirms she's not a K-series aircraft, also the lack of undercarriage doors.
> The only other external difference AFAIK is the position of the fuselage access hatch, which isn't visible in this heavy paint job.



DF loop moved back between frames 3 and 4. (An easy one.)
round metal plate above the footrest behind the wing root was deleted on the K-4. (It's obvious in a decent port side view.)
Different aileron trim tabs (hard to see admittedly!)

Probably something else i've forgotten 

Don't go by the lack of U/C doors which were often removed by units.

Cheers
Steve


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## A4K (Apr 5, 2012)

Yeah, you're right Steve, thanks! Just checked my profiles - idiot me forgot those points! 

Good heads up on the removal of the undercarriage doors too - hadn't taken that into consideration.

Cheers! 
Evan


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## stona (Apr 5, 2012)

A4K said:


> Yeah, you're right Steve, thanks! Just checked my profiles - idiot me forgot those points!
> 
> Good heads up on the removal of the undercarriage doors too - hadn't taken that into consideration.
> 
> ...



The radio access panel and DF loop are usually the most visible. The G-10 and K are in all other respects very similar. I don't know when the book with the mis-captioned photo was published but such mis-identifications were more frequent in the past.
Cheers
Steve


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## Milosh (Apr 5, 2012)

Way back in 1957 in Green's 'Famous Fighters of WW2' there is the photo with the caption '_Last of the line, the Bf109K-6_'. Very same with its FE number in the book. At some time, someone _photoshoped_ the photo posted here.


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## stona (Apr 5, 2012)

I'm not with you Milosh. Which image is photoshopped? 
The image on your link above (the Eger image) is well known and clearly shows a G-10,ex FE123 now renumbered TE123. Nothing odd there. It is not photoshopped in the link. I'm afraid Green simply misidentified it,not just as a K-6 but as any K at all. It seems that his error was repeated in subsequent publications,again,not unusual.
The FE/TE number has been edited out in the image from 'Die Grossen Luftschlachten des Zweiten Weltkriegs',probably to give the impression that the photo was taken in Germany during the war,though I'm not sure how you'd explain that dreadful fake camouflage or out of period national markings! I assume this is the "photoshopped" image you mean.
Cheers
Steve


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## Milosh (Apr 5, 2012)

Steve, the image in post #5 has been altered (photoshopped) from what is in the Green book.


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## stona (Apr 5, 2012)

Milosh said:


> Steve, the image in post #5 has been altered (photoshopped) from what is in the Green book.



Thanks. Yes,the FE/TE number has been removed at the very least.
Cheers
Steve


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## A4K (Apr 6, 2012)

Yep, retouched (ie, airbrushed out) I'd say. Wonder why? (That book was published in 1998, btw.)

Here's what I have on the Bf 109K-4. Let me know if ya's need close ups of anything. 
Pics 1-2: Messerschmitt Bf.109, by V. Romanov (M-Hobby publication)
Pics 3-8: German Aircraft Interiors 1935-1945, by Kenneth A. Merrick (Monogram publications)


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## razor1uk (Apr 7, 2012)

Mmmm, a nympho-of-info-maniacs wealth of info pics - 
So to sum up, an F - G model that was returned to be rebuilt/recycled as needed, was if refurbished to K equivelent standard became a G10/G14 depending on pre-existing kit and required the fitment upgrades. 
K's were made as such 'brand new' (with more new than the amount of recycled/re-checked parts) in the factories. 
And not that many were in reality were made, the production of them was only just being sorted out initiated (so it seems), and so, even less of those actually reached units due to the logistical nightmares within Germany


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## Denniss (Apr 7, 2012)

You couldn't turn an F into a G or K. All K were new-built as well as all G-10 and G-14. You could refurbish an older G-series airframe and upgrade it with all the latest stuff to become equivalent to a G-10 or G-14 (depending on engine).
There's still an old myth claiming most/all G-10 were refurbished older airframes, stemming from the initial G-10 production series using airframes diverted from G-14 production.


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## davebender (Apr 7, 2012)

> At the end of the war there was not much interest in the Bf109 which was after all an old airframe with a well known engine.


There must have been some interest in the DB605D engine which entered service during October 1944.


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## stona (Apr 8, 2012)

The allies were far more interested in the jet and rocket and electronic technology. Just look at a list of " the aicraft on HMS Reaper. They had some piston engined stuff like the Do335s. I guess they didn't think they had much to learn from German piston engines.
Such was the lack of interest from the British that of all the 233 Air Ministry numbers assigned to foreign aircraft only one was assigned to a Bf109. This was a G-14 ( W.Nr.413601 ) and it doesn't seem to have made it to Britain. Compare that with 23 Me163s
Cheers
Steve


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## Jenisch (Apr 8, 2012)

The Allies also had captured many 109s. Their engineers were probably aware it's development potential was not great.


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## stona (Apr 9, 2012)

Denniss said:


> You couldn't turn an F into a G or K. All K were new-built as well as all G-10 and G-14. You could refurbish an older G-series airframe and upgrade it with all the latest stuff to become equivalent to a G-10 or G-14 (depending on engine).
> There's still an old myth claiming most/all G-10 were refurbished older airframes, stemming from the initial G-10 production series using airframes diverted from G-14 production.



Exactly. That myth won't die! Another reflection of the power of the internet.
Steve


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## stona (Apr 9, 2012)

Jenisch said:


> The Allies also had captured many 109s. Their engineers were probably aware it's development potential was not great.



Exactly....again.
It was a mid 1930s design,long in tooth and going nowhere. The British were already bolting massively powerful engines onto their old Spitfire and had nothing much to learn from a similar German development.
Steve


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## Arsenal45 (Dec 18, 2012)

Hello all!

Please check our website! We are working on a project to rebuild a latewar Bf109 K4 from original parts and newmade components. It is the serial number 334253 that took place in the famous "Sonderkommando Elbe"..

Arsenal 45












Lots of parts are here, yet. But we very enjoy any part-offers to get the aircraft complete one day.

Thanks,

Gregor


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