# Hartmann's Bf 109s



## Njaco (Feb 15, 2010)

Erich Hartmann's various Bf 109s pulled from the web, books and...... There really aren't that many pics of his planes. I've gone through all my books and most of what is there is sparse. Kinda makes me question some of the profiles.


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## Njaco (Feb 15, 2010)

and some profiles.....


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## vikingBerserker (Feb 15, 2010)

Great info Chris.


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## beaupower32 (Feb 15, 2010)

Kind of a funny one here for yall, out of my own personal collection. Source unknown!


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## Wayne Little (Feb 16, 2010)

Cool!! 

some good pics....the 8th one down in your selection is a new one to me Chris, looks like Hartmanns G-4/R6 "White 2" KJ+GU W.Nr 14997, got some shots of this one including a model! will add them soon!


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## lesofprimus (Feb 16, 2010)

Like the signed pic of Hartmann and Merten.... Some of those profiles Ive never seen before.... Red 1??? WTF is that???? The very black White 1??? Never seen such a thing.....


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## Njaco (Feb 16, 2010)

Thats what I said...Those profiles are very suspect!


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## Lucky13 (Feb 16, 2010)

How about this one.....


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## Njaco (Feb 16, 2010)

Like I said - "Yellow One" from November 1944 is obviously "White One". Go figure.


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## imalko (Feb 16, 2010)

I believe this wasn't posted here yet...
(Source: Classic Publications Jagdwaffe - War In Russia)


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## beaupower32 (Feb 16, 2010)

Here is a picture of Hartmanns plane with the black tulip. Sorry for the big copy right on the picture.


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## Wayne Little (Feb 24, 2010)

found those pics of white 2 Chris, will scan them up soon!


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## brandle (Feb 24, 2010)

This could not have come at a better time, I have Academy 1:72 Hartmann BF109 on the prep bench, thanks all for the info.


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## Wayne Little (Feb 25, 2010)

Here ya go Chris, those White 2 Pics...these were taken after the aircraft crash landed behind enemy lines by another pilot while Hartmann was on leave.

Source: Flugzeug Archive Band 6


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## Njaco (Feb 25, 2010)

Great pics!!!!


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## Wayne Little (Feb 25, 2010)

No worries Chris, you might like this then....built quite a while back...


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## Njaco (Feb 26, 2010)

You forgot the bent propellors!!  Great looking model!!


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## Wayne Little (Feb 27, 2010)

Njaco said:


> You forgot the bent propellors!!  Great looking model!!



....Hartmann hadn't gone on leave yet!


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## lesofprimus (Feb 27, 2010)

Great stuff Wayne, the kit still looks sharp as hell... Great pics as well...


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## Wayne Little (Feb 28, 2010)

Thanks mate!


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## Njaco (Jun 17, 2010)

found a few more......


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## FalkeEins (Jun 18, 2010)

Wayne Little said:


> Cool!!
> 
> some good pics....the 8th one down in your selection is a new one to me Chris, looks like Hartmanns G-4/R6 "White 2" KJ+GU W.Nr 14997, got some shots of this one including a model! will add them soon!





- great model Wayne ! The pic you refer to was published by Erik Mombeeck in an 'Avions' magazine article. He also published this very nice shot from late 44 with 7./JG52. There's another great shot from this 'sequence' in Peter Düttmann's bio " Wo wir sind ist immer oben" - I've put that one on my blog


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## Wayne Little (Jun 18, 2010)

Thanks Neil!


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## Njaco (Aug 31, 2011)

two more....


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## Ratsel (Aug 31, 2011)

Erich Hartmann's Bf 109K-4


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## Wotan (Aug 31, 2011)

Ratsel said:


> Erich Hartmann's Bf 109K-4



fake


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## Ratsel (Aug 31, 2011)

Wotan said:


> fake


Profile #124 in the book _Luftwaffe Fighter Aircraft in Profile Vol.1 by Claes Sundin Christer Bergstrom_.


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## Maximowitz (Aug 31, 2011)

There is no photographic proof Hartmann ever flew a K-4 - so far.


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## Gnomey (Aug 31, 2011)

Nice stuff!


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## Njaco (Aug 31, 2011)

gotta agree with Max. No K-4 that I have read or found.


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## Ratsel (Aug 31, 2011)

Njaco said:


> gotta agree with Max. No K-4 that I have read or found.



found this:

"_Note: There are no pictures of Hartmann's last 'Karaya' known. According to his own findings, he flew the K-4 version, as well as further some of his subordinates in this group. Therefore, one can conclude that Hartmann could have flown his last mission in a few hours before the ceasefire really a Bf 109K-4. Therefore we have chosen for this aircraft._."

not sure if it makes any difference.


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## Njaco (Aug 31, 2011)

I have a sneaky feeling it was a Gustav with a wooden tail.


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## stona (Sep 1, 2011)

Ratsel said:


> found this:
> 
> "_Note: There are no pictures of Hartmann's last 'Karaya' known. According to his own findings, he flew the K-4 version, as well as further some of his subordinates in this group. Therefore, one can conclude that Hartmann could have flown his last mission in a few hours before the ceasefire really a Bf 109K-4. Therefore we have chosen for this aircraft._."
> 
> not sure if it makes any difference.



I'm confused,whose own findings? Hartmann's. The only mention of a K type (not specifically a K IIRC) is in 'The Blonde Knight of Germany' written without access to his Flugbuch or the unit KTBs for the period

His last known aircraft was a G-10. This K nonsense started years back with a composite profile by Karl Ries in,I think,the old "Luftwaffe camouflage and markings" series. 

Steve


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## Wotan (Sep 1, 2011)

approximate data:

Bf109D-1 From flight school
Bf109G-4 /R6 Wnr 14997. weisse 2+~ KJ+GU. (later Uffz. Herbert Meissler)
Bf109G-6 W.Nr- unknown. schwarze 10 
Bf109G-6 W.Nr- unknown. weisse 20 
Bf109G-6 W.Nr. 20499. gelbe1+~ 
Bf109G-6 W.Nr. 166221. gelbe1+~ 
Bf109G-14 W.Nr- unknown (51xxxx.?) weisse 1+- (later Uffz Anton Kellmayer 7 Staffel)
Bf109G-14 W.Nr- unknown.(492xxx ?) <<+ (I./JG53) (ex7, later 2)
Bf109G-10 W.Nr. - unknown (15xxxx.?) <<+- 
Bf109G-10 (Bf-109G-14 AS or Bf-109G-6AS???? ) W.Nr and marking unknown


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## Maximowitz (Sep 1, 2011)

stona said:


> His last known aircraft was a G-10. This K nonsense started years back with a composite profile by Karl Ries in,I think,the old "Luftwaffe camouflage and markings" series.



It's sold a few model kits...


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## Ratsel (Sep 1, 2011)

stona said:


> This K nonsense started years back with a composite profile by Karl Ries in,I think,the old "Luftwaffe camouflage and markings" series.
> 
> Steve


its not really non-sense. theres a well known Bf 109K-4 'Tulip nose' that flew with JG 52 (well flew with JG 50 but ended its service with JG 52). I think thats where the confusion started. also the pic with Hartmann in front of his G-10 (last pic in post #1) after his 350th aerial victory is a Erla-Leipzig built G-10 in the 490 XXX-492 XXX batch.


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## Maximowitz (Sep 1, 2011)

I like the profiles with the full 365 kills painted on the tail....


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## stona (Sep 1, 2011)

Maximowitz said:


> I like the profiles with the full 365 kills painted on the tail....



That's based on the one I referred to. I'm sure his ground crew would have wasted time on all that lovely art work so that they could blow it up a few days later!
You are absolutely right about the model kits its sold.

Ratsel Stab JG 52 had K-4s.

Cheers
Steve


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## Ratsel (Sep 1, 2011)

stona said:


> Ratsel Stab JG 52 had K-4s.
> 
> Cheers
> Steve


Yep. Three of them at the very least. III./JG 52 also used a few K-4's.


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## Flavio (Sep 2, 2011)

Wotan said:


> approximate data:
> 
> Bf109D-1 From flight school
> Bf109G-4 /R6 Wnr 14997. weisse 2+~ KJ+GU. (later Uffz. Herbert Meissler)
> ...



We can add the new discovered Bf 109G-6 "yellow 1 with small red 2 inside" flown on 4 june 1944 (source "Wing of the Black cross" nr.7) .

Please Wotan were did you find the information regarding Bf109G-6s "schwarze 10" and "weisse 20" flown by Hartmann? Can you add more info about these two planes?
Thank you
Flavio


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## Ratsel (Sep 3, 2011)

' _Bf 109G-6 "yellow 1 with small red 2 inside _'

The small red '2' inside the yellow '1' (along with the Heart his girlfriends name) suggests that it _could_ have been his backup a/c.


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## Wayne Little (Sep 3, 2011)

Ratsel said:


> ' _Bf 109G-6 "yellow 1 with small red 2 inside _'
> 
> The small red '2' inside the yellow '1' (along with the Heart his girlfriends name) suggests that it _could_ have been his backup a/c.



A most likely scenario!


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## Wotan (Sep 4, 2011)

Flavio said:


> We can add the new discovered Bf 109G-6 "yellow 1 with small red 2 inside" flown on 4 june 1944 (source "Wing of the Black cross" nr.7) .
> 
> Please Wotan were did you find the information regarding Bf109G-6s "schwarze 10" and "weisse 20" flown by Hartmann? Can you add more info about these two planes?
> Thank you
> Flavio



These photos known and they are from the book of Ursula Hartmann
Amazon.com: German Fighter Ace Erich Hartmann: The Life Story of the Worlds Highest Scoring Ace (9780887403965): Manfred JÃ¤ger, Ursula Hartmann: Books
But personally, I doubt. For number "20" is too little space in front of the cross. Photo taken 2 days before Hartmann shot down and he was taken prisoner.


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## Wayne Little (Sep 5, 2011)

You're right...not enough room for 2 digits from what is visible... typo maybe? a 2 instead of 20 the 0 added in error?


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## Wotan (Sep 8, 2011)

Info on Hartmann's Bf109G-10 photos 
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=13864&pid=75400&st=0 entry75400


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## Wayne Little (Sep 9, 2011)

Excellent new photo's especially confirming the tulip!


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## Crimea_River (Sep 9, 2011)

I wonder if the "low vis" markings are rather just unfinished?


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## Flavio (Sep 9, 2011)

Crimea_River said:


> I wonder if the "low vis" markings are rather just unfinished?



As I wrote on LEMB board my photos are very bad with colours very different from the originals; however even if the original photos are very small (approx 9x6 cm) they are very detailed and I remember the white border on the tulips.
I am in contact with the seller in the hope of being able to buy only these two photos and not the whole album (too expensive), hoping he will accept my offer.
Flavio


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## Crimea_River (Sep 9, 2011)

Good luck with that. What's he asking for the album?


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## Wayne Little (Sep 10, 2011)

Yes...do tell!


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## al49 (Sep 10, 2011)

Hi,
I searched this booklet





there are several pictures on Bubi Hartmann, most already shown in this thread, except this one:






that was taken on August 24, 1944 when he landed after achieving his 301th kill.

Still on the same booklet these profiles on K4





and this nice post-war photo 






Cheers
Alberto


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## stona (Sep 12, 2011)

Interesting idea that the Hartmann photo is a fake. That image,or a version of it, has been around for a while and noone has called it before. I doubt it but you never know. No other photos from that 'shoot' have ever surfaced as far as I know.
Steve


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## Njaco (Sep 13, 2011)

Nice Alberto. I don't think the "Schwarz 4 - Red Tulip" was Hartman's although it looks like the same JG. I remember seeing this in a book of mine, will have to search through to see who it belonged to.


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## Ratsel (Sep 13, 2011)

Njaco said:


> Nice Alberto. I don't think the "Schwarz 4 - Red Tulip" was Hartman's although it looks like the same JG. I remember seeing this in a book of mine, will have to search through to see who it belonged to.


That machine was with JG 50 I believe. It surrendered at Deutsch Brod along with JG 52 machines and a few other JG units. I can compile a list of which units if need be.


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## Njaco (Sep 13, 2011)

You may be right. Hermann Graf?


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## Ratsel (Sep 13, 2011)

Maybe. It could possibly be Stab/JG 50 ' Green +4 ' instead of ' Black + 4 '


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## Wotan (Sep 14, 2011)

Ratsel said:


> That machine was with JG 50 I believe. It surrendered at Deutsch Brod along with JG 52 machines and a few other JG units. I can compile a list of which units if need be.


JG50 Disbanded in late 10.*43*, absorbed by I./JG301.
Jagdgeschwader 50





Njaco said:


> You may be right. Hermann Graf?





> Bf 109K-4, W.Nr. 332 529 "Black 4" of Stab/JG 52 with very colourful markings. The JG 52 commander Hermann Graf, was probably their originator as both the position as well as style of the markings accords with the style used by JG 50. Graf commanded the latter unit in autumn 1943 and the unit's aircraft used a small white-outlined digit aft of the fuselage cross. In addition to that Grafs aircraft had a tulip emblem on the engine cowling. Colour profile available in "Messerschmitt Bf 109K camouflage marking", JaPo 2000.


 (С) Ales Janda, Tomas Poruba "Messerschmitt Bf 109s of JG 52 in Deutsch Brod"
JaPo publishing - Products – Forthcoming titles


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## Njaco (Sep 14, 2011)

Thanks Wotan! I haven't lost my memory after all!!!


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## Ratsel (Sep 14, 2011)

Wotan said:


> JG50 Disbanded in late 10.*43*, absorbed by I./JG301.
> Jagdgeschwader 50
> 
> 
> ...



I have that book, its very informative. My mistake about JG 50, was in a hurry. JG 301 would be correct. Regardless, the red tulip K-4 wasn't part of JG 52. The were many JG units that surrendered at Deutsch Brod


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## Njaco (Sep 14, 2011)

No, I think the red tulip was more Graf's plane emblem than a JG emblem - like Hartmann's black tulip.....

Think I may start a Graf thread!


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## Ratsel (Sep 14, 2011)

He was appointed Kommodore in Oct/44 so the markings on his machine would reflect it, no? Also, why the 'Schwarz 4' if it was Graf's machine?


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## Wotan (Sep 14, 2011)

In 1945, In JG301 wasn't К-4


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## Ratsel (Sep 14, 2011)

Wotan said:


> In 1945, In JG301 wasn't К-4


Ok then, thanks.


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## Wotan (Sep 14, 2011)

Ratsel said:


> Also, why the 'Schwarz 4' if it was Graf's machine?




Maybe because he started to fight in war on the "4"


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## Ratsel (Sep 14, 2011)

wasn't he commander at this time? also found this:

_"The Tulip K-4 was assigned to 10./JG 52, as "black 4" and later re-assigned to Stab Staffel, where Hptm. Adolf Borchers picked it as his personal machine"._

So I thank you guys for kick starting my Brain and trying to get some info on it. If in fact it is the correct information, so far looks like it is.


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## Wotan (Sep 15, 2011)

three pages from "Das II. Gruppe des Jagdgeschwaders 52"


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## Wayne Little (Sep 15, 2011)

Excellent!  a shot or two their i havent seen before....


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## Wotan (Sep 15, 2011)

more photo ex-Hartmann's Bf109


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## Crimea_River (Sep 15, 2011)

That's the one I was thinking of a while ago with the tulip in flight. Knew I saw it somewhere.


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## Njaco (Sep 15, 2011)

Absolutely fantastic pics!!!!


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## Wayne Little (Sep 16, 2011)

Thanks for those extra pages Vlad, again some shots i have not seen before including some detail not previously noted!


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## Ratsel (Sep 17, 2011)

Yes, some awesome pics I never seen before. 






I took the liberty to enlarge clean up a bit one of them.. Hope nobody minds. This would be his tall tail G-14? Correct?


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## Wayne Little (Sep 18, 2011)

Ratsel said:


> Yes, some awesome pics I never seen before.
> 
> View attachment 178627
> 
> ...



No, his G-6 White 1 as indicated in the captions.


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## Ratsel (Sep 18, 2011)

Oh I see. Was just asking becouse I didn't see a unit badge on the cowl. I thought his G-6 had one but the G-14 didn't. thanks for the information!


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## Njaco (Feb 15, 2012)

Afew more - possibly some that have been seen before or posted already.


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## Gnomey (Feb 16, 2012)

Good stuff Chris!


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## Njaco (Jul 29, 2012)

Some more...sources unknown...


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## Wayne Little (Jul 30, 2012)

Scratch that profile with the Black W and 100 wreath, it is Gordon Gollobs 109F.


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## Njaco (Jul 30, 2012)

I thought was suspect.


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## Njaco (Jan 1, 2013)

Found this over on Falkeins website....


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## Wayne Little (Jan 2, 2013)

His last G-10 aircraft, great pic, wish it extended to include the tail...


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## Njaco (Jan 20, 2014)

another in the series of the "White 2" that Wayne had posted...

.


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## Wayne Little (Jan 21, 2014)

not sure i've seen that one? Good one Chris!

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


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## Torch (Jan 29, 2014)

great post and pics,thanks.still like the "black" on the first page


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## Njaco (Feb 1, 2016)

I'm not sure if I posted these - just clearing my PC.....


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## Wurger (Feb 1, 2016)




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## Wayne Little (Feb 2, 2016)

One is Barkhorn and his g-6


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## Njaco (Feb 2, 2016)

Which one, Wayne? I may have put it in the wrong folder and that is why its here. I just cleaned out stuff. My bad!


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## Wayne Little (Feb 3, 2016)

Njaco said:


> Which one, Wayne? I may have put it in the wrong folder and that is why its here. I just cleaned out stuff. My bad!



Third one down, left column, Double Chevron with the small White 5, Barhorn is one standing in the middle.


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