# The best SOF of WW2



## Soren (Dec 28, 2007)

So considering expertize, gear, training success vs circumstances which Special Operations Force was the best of WW2 in your opinion ?

1. The Brandenburgers
2. The Commandos
3. The Rangers
4. The Kaukopartios
5. The SS JagdVerbände
6. The Z Special Units
7. The Gurkha's


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 28, 2007)

I am not sure which one is the best because well I am sure each one had its advantages and disadvantages and each one had a particular thing it was "specialized" in.

Frankly I dont know eneogh about the different "Special Forces" to vote on which one is best.

I do however think that the SAS should be included in the group since they were formed in August of 1941 since they were somewhat seperate from the Commandos.

Technically there was also the Special Boat Service and the Long Range Desert Group.

The US had the Army Rangers.

Tehnically also the OSS was a SOF group since they armed and trained resistance groups which is a role of modern SOF groups.


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## Soren (Dec 28, 2007)

Roger that Adler, but some of the above SO units specialized themselves at both land, sea air operations, the Brandenburgers did and the Commandos did as-well. 

Technically the Elite FallschirmJägers the GebirgsJägers were also SO units, highly trained specialized in their field, having to undergo considerably harder training than the already rigerous training of the enlisted Wehrmacht soldiers, whose training was already 3 times as long as the average US British soldier. However to keep the list short I didn't include these, but also because I'd have to add the equally specialized OSS, SAS, SBS etc etc.. Ofcourse the same can be said about the Rangers, Gurkhas Z special units.

Come to think about, if you can, you may add all these Adler - I did make it possible to choose more than one.


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## drgondog (Dec 29, 2007)

Soren said:


> Roger that Adler, but some of the above SO units specialized themselves at both land, sea air operations, the Brandenburgers did and the Commandos did as-well.
> 
> Technically the Elite FallschirmJägers the GebirgsJägers were also SO units, highly trained specialized in their field, having to undergo considerably harder training than the already rigerous training of the enlisted Wehrmacht soldiers, whose training was already 3 times as long as the average US British soldier. However to keep the list short I didn't include these, but also because I'd have to add the equally specialized OSS, SAS, SBS etc etc.. Ofcourse the same can be said about the Rangers, Gurkhas Z special units.
> 
> Come to think about, if you can, you may add all these Adler - I did make it possible to choose more than one.



The First Special Service Force is notably absent from your list - and may have as much quality as any of them, although the deployment was more aligned to Rangers... and Mark Clark misused them almost criminally -.

Having said that - the Anzio beach head would been rolled up had it not been for the defense that the equivalent of two battalions of 504/1SSF put up at Mussolini Canal.

Far too many 'special' units ranging from Commando to Rangers to Airborne to 1SSF were wasted by Generals like Clark and Montgomery.. 

Skorzeny may have been the most daring of the leaders, although nobody could lay claim to having more courage than Frederick as a leader of any of the above orgs.

Merrill's Marauders, Raiders, etc, etc.

How do you judge 'best' ???


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## Njaco (Dec 29, 2007)

Not knowing very many of the units I've always admired the Gurhkas.


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## comiso90 (Dec 29, 2007)

anything otto skorzeny took part in..

Otto Skorzeny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.

.


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## Divplaksnis (Dec 29, 2007)

I say SS JagdVerbände because i like them


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## renrich (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't believe the Gurkhas were a "special Force" unit specifically. They were mainly just units in the Indian Army. John Masters commanded a regiment of Gurkhas and they were part of Wingate's Chindits. My father in law served in the CBI and he said the Gurkhas were noted for being outstanding soldiers. Masters' book "The Road Past Mandalay" is well worth a read for details about Gurkhas, the Indian Army and the Chindits. I probably have the numbers garbled a little but my recollection is that after the Chindits had been operating behind the lines in Burma for about 6 weeks, their brigade commander had been flown out and Masters, his adjutant was commanding. He had about 1400 men left, most suffering from disease and light wounds. A medical team was flown in and every man was given a physical with the result that around a dozen were found "fit for duty" They all were evacuated.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 29, 2007)

Im with Bill here. I dont know how to judge the best. They were all equally good and they all had there advantages and disadvantages over each other.


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## renrich (Dec 29, 2007)

Another story from the CBI. My aforementioned father in law was a high up medical officer in the US Army and said that when Merrills Marauders were pulled out from the mission they were on, they were billeted in a rest camp somewhere in India. Unfortunately the rest camp was infected and infested with mite typhus so the ones who were not already sick got sick.


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## ccheese (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't know diddly about Special Forces. I don't know if the Turks had a
special force unit, but they are undoubtly the fiercest bunch of bas!ards
I've ever seen in the field ! I saw them in Nam and their "methods" border
on atrocities. I've seen them throw away a fully automatic weapon to go
after a man with a knife ! Just for the sheer pleasure of it...

Charles


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## Lucky13 (Dec 29, 2007)

I don't know a diddly-squat about this, but, didn't Carlson's Raiders go out on one of the longest patrols during the pacific war? What was it, 30 days on Guadalcanal? But they were marines weren't they?

Also, whenever I thought of special operations (as a kid I have to add) the british commandos always popped up first...


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## glennasher (Dec 29, 2007)

IIRC, the SAS came out of the Long Range Desert Group, so I'm not sure that the accolades accorded for the SAS shouldn't be awarded to LRDG, at least during the early part of the war. That still leaves too many choices though, there were a heckuva lot of specialized units during that time period. I'm not even sure that 617 Squadron shouldn't be considered, at least for the Dams Raid. Too many choices..........


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## Soren (Dec 29, 2007)

Hmmm.. Ok, let me make a hypothetical mission here;

What SOF would you choose if your mission was for them to be dropped deeply inside the jungle of Congo (Africa), locate, secure and retrieve a vital treasure before another country's SOF gets there ?

For this you'll need to consider weapons, gear training, AND, ofcourse, the method for reaching the target location first.

Hehe, this will be fun, reminds me of an Indiana Jones adventure 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 30, 2007)

glennasher said:


> IIRC, the SAS came out of the Long Range Desert Group, so I'm not sure that the accolades accorded for the SAS shouldn't be awarded to LRDG, at least during the early part of the war. That still leaves too many choices though, there were a heckuva lot of specialized units during that time period. I'm not even sure that 617 Squadron shouldn't be considered, at least for the Dams Raid. Too many choices..........



If I understand the history of the SAS correctly it did not come out of the LRDG. It was formed as a completely seperate group but they worked in conjunction with the LRDG.

The SAS even called the LRDG the *Libyan Desert Taxi Service*.


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## Soren (Dec 30, 2007)

Lets stick to actual troops guys, not aviators.

Now consider my little hypothetical Indy adventure


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 30, 2007)

I dont have an answer for you. Like I said I dont know eneogh about WW2 Spec Ops to decide on that.


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## Soren (Dec 30, 2007)

Well then concentrate on things other than training. I could for example ask, what would you want to have with you if you were in charge ?


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## AVRoe (Dec 30, 2007)

In July 1941 a member of 8 commando, Layforce was injured and on crutches after a parachute jump; 24 year old Captain David Stirling believed in the idea of the Special Services and set about devising a plan that could continue the work of these units but with fewer men and a smaller drain on other resources. Knowing the hostility that existed towards such forces within the officer class Stirling stormed in to the British General Headquarters in the Middle East to gain the Commander in Chief's (General Claude Auchinleck) personal permission to form a Special Service.

Against the advice of many of his senior staff Auchinleck gave Stirling permission to recruit four officers and sixty men into a new unit called the 'L detachment to the Special Air Service Brigade,' a name that was given to convince the Germans that the unit was attached to a much bigger airborne commando brigade, despite no such unit existing (the idea of airborne commandos was also in its infancy). Most of the recruits (all volunteers) came from Stirlings previous unit No 8 Army Commando, Layforce now disbanded.
Jock Lewis and Paddy Mayne were two of the first officers and are now legends of the SAS. Bob Bennett and Johnny Cooper were two of the first non commissioned soldiers to join the regiment.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 30, 2007)

Someone needs to mention The Jedburghs, who did some unreal things in occupied France before/during and after D-Day....


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## plan_D (Dec 31, 2007)

I believe this discussion has been had but it would be good to bring it back to life. 

The Ghurkas are not special forces in any shape or form. The Ghurka regiments are simply British Army regiments with recruits from Nepal, they are no more special troops than the Welsh Guards. The Ghurka's reputation and ability to fight is undisputed both my father and grandfather have met Ghurkas in the combat zone. My father was in the Falklands, admittedly the Ghurkas did have a back seat in that but he did get to hear how afraid the Argentinian troops were of them.
My grandad on the other hand had a knife held to his throat by a Ghurka that appeared from, apparently, nowhere in the jungle. My Grandad was in the second Chindit expedition, something I will always be proud of announcing. The Chindits were not special men, nor special soldiers, they were regular army grunts. Their success came from their morale and firm belief that they could fight the Japanese on the Japanese terms, and they did. 

If this is a Special Forces discussion, I'm sorry, but I have to say the Chindits and Ghurkas cannot be included. 

The SAS would be top of my list for best special forces, they achieved so much in the desert, Italy and NW Europe. They were not formed out of the LRDG but were, as Adler said, inserted by the LRDG during their time in the desert. The LRDG were simply a recon unit with expertise in desert navigation, brilliant minds and certainly special but they weren't the SAS. 

The Royal Marines (Commandos) will always cause confusion because they were a regular unit and a special unit... difficult question. But I'm going to say that all the top special units would be British , sorry , but I think Britain made special forces a reality in World War II.


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## Soren (Dec 31, 2007)

What about the BrandenBurgers ? I'd say they were atleast on the same level.


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## Soren (Dec 31, 2007)

The Brandenburgers on Leros:


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## plan_D (Dec 31, 2007)

The Brandenburgers achieved some remarkable feats but the problem I have is that they constantly wore enemy uniforms and the certain platoons were designated to operate in their own ethnic area. The Brandenburgers seem to be the masters of trickery [and if caught should have all been shot as spies, as many were] but in military terms the SAS were superior, yes disguised in some actions but the vast majority of the time the SAS were proudly wearing the British uniform miles behind enemy lines. They were so good at their job, disguises weren't needed. 

As for your scenario, it has to be the LRDG - they'd map out the way to the Congo before anyone else was anywhere near. Unless they were all dumped in the jungle, then it'd be the SAS.


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## renrich (Dec 31, 2007)

The US Army Rangers have their origins in Roger's Rangers which go back to the French and Indian War in the 1750s. Somewhere I have a copy of the rules that Roger's promulgated for his Rangers while on the march. Many of those rules still make sense today and are part of the training of SOFs today.


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## drgondog (Dec 31, 2007)

plan_D said:


> The Brandenburgers achieved some remarkable feats but the problem I have is that they constantly wore enemy uniforms and the certain platoons were designated to operate in their own ethnic area. The Brandenburgers seem to be the masters of trickery [and if caught should have all been shot as spies, as many were] but in military terms the SAS were superior, yes disguised in some actions but the vast majority of the time the SAS were proudly wearing the British uniform miles behind enemy lines. They were so good at their job, disguises weren't needed.
> 
> As for your scenario, it has to be the LRDG - they'd map out the way to the Congo before anyone else was anywhere near. Unless they were all dumped in the jungle, then it'd be the SAS.



Based on the current (multiple) ops profiles for Special Ops I would have to go with SAS in WWII (and Burma post war) also.

From the US perspective, the Rangers, Raiders, Airborne and 1SSF (joint US/Canada) were all specialized heavily trained soldiers and used more as shock troops than 'sneak and peak' warriors. Marine Raiders performed the role in the Tulagi and SW Pacific but not pervasive enough to be considered with Brandenburger or SAS

the WWII Jedburgh would be closest of the above to a US Special Ops group in context of current Special Forces wrt training and leading 'indigs' as a force multiplier but they were single theatre and somewhat limited in ops profile.

If you want shock and awe, you have to consider 1SSF taking Monte Difensa, cleaning up one mountain top after another and then creating havoc in front of Mussolini Canal at Anzio - they would get my vote for a troop of that small size.


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## Soren (Dec 31, 2007)

Plan_D,

The Brandenburgers far from wore enemy uniforms constantly, infact they wore FallschirmJäger uniforms mostly. They did do allot of covert operations wearing enemy uniforms, thats true, but they certainly didn't wear them constantly.

The Brandenburgers also took part in the daring rescue of Mussolini.

Another picture of the Brandenburgers at Leros:


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## Soren (Dec 31, 2007)

Some more pictures of the Brandenburgers:


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 31, 2007)

Ive seen quite a bit of Brandenburgers in there Wehrmacht uniforms as well.


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## AL Schlageter (Jan 1, 2008)

The Devil's Brigade (1st Special Service Force) were no slouches. They had the Germans wetting their pants at Anzio.

"The black devils (Die schwarze Teufeln) are all around us every time we come into the line."

" The First Special Service Force arrived at the beachhead on February 1. A few reinforcements left it with a combat strength of 1,233, all ranks. Only one of its regiments was intact, the other two were at half-strength. The Force promptly took over one-quarter of Anzio's thirty-mile-long front, and in a week forced the Germans to withdraw more than a mile from the Mussolini Canal, which was situated at the right flank of the bridgehead."

"It was also at Anzio that the 1st SSF used their trademark stickers; during night patrols soldiers would carry stickers depicting the unit patch and a slogan written in German: "Das dicke Ende kommt noch," said to translate to "The Worst is yet to Come", placing these stickers on German corpses and fortifications."

Battles of the First Special Service Force :
Aleutians Campaign, 1943 :

Kiska Little Kiska - August 15-August 19, 1943
Segula Island - August 17, 1943
Italian (Naples-Foggia-Rome) Campaign 1943-1944 :

Monte la Difensa - December 3-December 6, 1943
Monte la Remetanea - December 6-December 9, 1943
Monte Sammucro - December 25 (Christmas Day), 1943
Radicosa - January 4, 1944
Monte Majo - January 6, 1944
Monte Vischiataro - January 8, 1944
Anzio - February 2-May 10, 1944
Monte Arrestino - May 25, 1944
Rocca Massima - May 27, 1944
Colle Ferro - June 2, 1944
Rome - June 4, 1944
Southern France, (Alpes-Maritimes) Campaign, 1944 :

Iles d'Hyères - August 14-August 17, 1944
Grasse - August 27, 1944
Villeneuve-Loubet - August 30, 1944
Vence - September 1, 1944
Drap - September 3, 1944
L'Escarène - September 5, 1944
La Turbie - September 6, 1944
Menton - September 7, 1944
Rhineland Campaign, 1944 :

Franco-Italian border - September 7 - November 30, 1944


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## drgondog (Jan 1, 2008)

AL Schlageter said:


> The Devil's Brigade (1st Special Service Force) were no slouches. They had the Germans wetting their pants at Anzio.
> 
> "The black devils (Die schwarze Teufeln) are all around us every time we come into the line."
> 
> ...



I have a hard time defining them as SOF, I have an even harder time conceiving of a SOF mission that I would not trust them to accomplish. That is the reason I categorized them more as shock troops in the above post - but their conception Was all about small, fast, mobile troops operating behind enemy lines in Norway destroying the Hydroelectric network..

What Frederick did in Greece as 'an advisor' post WWII really did define the future for Special Forces - but he was hounded out of the Army by the post war 'Legs'... what a man, what a soldier.

RIP General Frederick


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## Soren (Jan 1, 2008)

I still say the Brandenburgers and the Commandos, plus maybe the SAS.

The Brandenburgers had the best equipment available to any unit, they were the best trained soldiers in the German army and probably in the entire world being both frogmen, paratroopers, ski mountain troops and covert spies. They were also well instructed in the use of enemy weapons vehicles.





(Notice the FG-42's and the recoilless cannon)


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## drgondog (Jan 1, 2008)

Soren said:


> I still say the Brandenburgers and the Commandos, plus maybe the SAS.
> 
> The Brandenburgers had the best equipment available to any unit, they were the best trained soldiers in the German army and probably in the entire world being both frogmen, paratroopers, ski mountain troops and covert spies. They were also well instructed in the use of enemy weapons vehicles.
> 
> ...



I have no problem with your choice and I admire Skorzeny as I said earlier. I just have a problem identifying most of the above as Special Ops in today's context.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 1, 2008)

For me and my knowledge, I go with the Brandenburgers and SAS as the best, deciding which is tops is too detailed in the differing mission profiles/effectiveness..... I would follow up the Top choices with the 1st SSF... I, like Bill, admire the hell outta General Frederick as well....

I liked what the OSS and the Jeds did alot as well, but as Bill said, too small scale, not large enough employment.... Dangerous as all hell.... Big balls on those guys.....


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## drgondog (Jan 1, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> For me and my knowledge, I go with the Brandenburgers and SAS as the best, deciding which is tops is too detailed in the differing mission profiles/effectiveness..... I would follow up the Top choices with the 1st SSF... I, like Bill, admire the hell outta General Frederick as well....
> 
> I liked what the OSS and the Jeds did alot as well, but as Bill said, too small scale, not large enough employment.... Dangerous as all hell.... Big balls on those guys.....



Big Brass ones on all of them - present company included. tip of the hat to you, Dan.

Frederick and 1SSF was well and truly taught at Bragg. One of my uncles (Dr. Joe Hilsman) was a Thompson carrying MD in 5th Rangers and while he kissed zero asses he tipped his hat to 1SSF - a lot of Rangers and a few Airborne were in the replacement pool for 1SSF as they wouldn't accept regular 'legs'.


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## Soren (Jan 1, 2008)

Bill, 

What do you mean with "most of the above" ? (Not that I necessarily disagree)

Les,

I fully agree. The Commandos (As Bill points out) weren't spec ops soldiers as we know them. The SAS and Brandenburgers is another matter.

________________________

As for the Devil's Brigade, I agree, they were making some German troops nervous - seeing messages on fellow soldier's slit throat that you're next is a very sobering experience - haves you know that who'ever did that isn't afraid to get up close and ugly! Scary...


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## AL Schlageter (Jan 1, 2008)

Bill, you do know that the 1SSF was composed of both Americans and Canadians. His 2cd OC was a Canadian.



> My personal favorite outfit of WWII with Robert Tyron Frederick at the top of my list of American Regimental CO's in any war (with all due respect to Chesty Puller)



While doing a net search for more information came across this, SEALS - Awards - Special Forces - Roll Of Honour


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## drgondog (Jan 1, 2008)

AL Schlageter said:


> Bill, you do know that the 1SSF was composed of both Americans and Canadians. His 2cd OC was a Canadian.
> 
> Al - I did.
> 
> ...



I knew two guys who went all the way with 1 SSF and then on to Greece with Frederick. They said the Canadians they fought with were the bravest soldiers they knew.

One of them served with Arron Bank during Korean War when 10th was formed in Europe. He gave me his Fairbairn when he passed away - and I gave it to my oldest son when he went to FMF

Aaron Bank is another Spec War 'god' and well deserved respect as father of 'special forces' (US Army version, Dan) 

I had a huge struggle 'disregarding Jedburgs' as best because theu were closest to progenitors of Special Forces doctrine today - but still limited in scope of ops and size as the Ops wing of OSS..

Regards

Bill


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## lesofprimus (Jan 1, 2008)

I agree Bill, the Jedburghs book that I read was really enlightening.... I was impressed, and that aint done lightly....

I am familiar with Aaron Bank and his story.. Hell of a guy....


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## drgondog (Jan 1, 2008)

Soren said:


> Bill,
> 
> What do you mean with "most of the above" ? (Not that I necessarily disagree)
> 
> ...



On the selection, I dropped the Commando/Ranger immediately for the reasons I mentioned, then the Ghurka's for reasons mentioned above - not really Spec Ops from context of Force Multipliers like say, US Special Forces working with native guerilla's in small self contained units. 

OSS per se didn't seem to fit but Jedburgs as Ops arm does fit. Special Boat Service seemed similar to UDT and limited in primary mission to water born ops?

I don't know anything about several other of the candidates but do think several of your choices were good ones to debate - especially SAS and Brandenburgers - for WWII. These guys are the progenitors that a lot of smart people like Aaron Banks and others studied.

So, that was my thinkin' as you posed the questions.

Spec War to me involves specially selected and trained men (not denigrating females but not today, thank you, for 20 mile humps with 70 pounds of gear at night) with multi disciplines to remain self contained and largely self sustaining.. multi lingual with intelligence gathering and dissemination skills, ploitical savvy, one hell of an ability to fight (and sneak in or out anywhere, any time) as a team in as many terrains as one sees a threat scenario emerging in which that small team could accomplish the mission.

Rangers, Commando's, 1 SSF fit the role of 'divisons in drag' that are mobile and tough and extremely resourceful but operate in Company to Battalion size force. People will generally 'know they are there' and where to find them and better bring a big lunch.

SAS, Force Recon. LRRPs, Special Forces, Seals take on specialized training and operate in small concealed units or well behind enemy lines. 

They are frequently discovered screwing around in their (other guys) back yard doing bad things, like blowing up sh--, training native malcontents to blow up sh-- and generally make huge pests of themselves requiring a LOT of attention to try to contain them from blowing up more sh__.

It is those kind of guys (I didn't forget Spetznaz or Delta, or those sweet counterparts in Germany or NK or SK or Turkey, they are ugly fellows also)

Regards,

Bill


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## plan_D (Jan 2, 2008)

The Ghurkas had the same habit of slitting the throat of two men in a foxhole and leaving a third. Many Germans thought Ghurkas were cannibals ! But they weren't special forces, in any respect. 

I think the stories of the SAS speak for themselves. Driving across the desert in a load of beefed up Chevies and smashing the crap out of airfields miles behind enemy lines is classic Spec Ops...takes the gold.


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## Soren (Jan 2, 2008)

Because of their many specializations being frogmen, paratroopers, ski mountain troopers, scouts covert spies the Brandenburgers take the prize IMHO. The SAS were impressive as-well, however they lack the same amount of specializations.


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## Aussie1001 (Jan 2, 2008)

mmmm perhaps but i do agree with Plan D however they were in Land Rovers not chevvies.


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## plan_D (Jan 2, 2008)

They used Chevies as well, my friend.








And the SAS were used as spies, they did many parachute drops, fought in mountainous terrain, and in snowy conditions ...I'm not hundred percent about being frogmen but I could find something. The SAS fought in all the same conditions as the Brandenburgers.


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## Heinz (Jan 2, 2008)

And Jeeps but not Land Rovers.

My grandfather came into contact with those guys a lot while serving with the 8th.


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## plan_D (Jan 2, 2008)

They did use Land Rovers, as well. I cannot find any decent pictures (from the era) but the famous Pink Panther was normally a Land Rover. The British Army has used a variant of the Land Rover since World War II , the WIMIK Land Rover - now nicknamed "Snatch" from Northern Ireland.


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## Soren (Jan 2, 2008)

One of the Brandenburger's favorite weapons being fired:

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwmUzz5Tl2A_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NakILDmzuA_


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## Aussie1001 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ok sorry Pd


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## Soren (Jan 2, 2008)

> And the SAS were used as spies, they did many parachute drops, fought in mountainous terrain, and in snowy conditions ...I'm not hundred percent about being frogmen but I could find something. The SAS fought in all the same conditions as the Brandenburgers.



But they weren't specialists in all these areas, unlike the Brandenburgers who were expertly trained by the FallschirmsJäger, GebirgsJäger, KM, Wehrmacht even the LW. 

I admire the SAS for their achievements in the desert, they were also spec ops IMO, it is just my opinion that since the Brandenburgers were abit more specialized at different tasks that they narrowly take the prize.


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## plan_D (Jan 2, 2008)

I do have to say the FG-42 was a remarkable weapon; it was developed solely for the Fallschirm and was never produced in large numbers - fortunately ! 

It's no problem, Aussie, no one knows everything.


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## Wildcat (Jan 2, 2008)

Lets not forget the Z special unit, most of their exploits are relatively unknown however operation Jaywick is one of the great raids of WWII. No mean feat sailing an old fishing boat to Singapore and back (from Australia) and then canoeing into Singapore Harbour and sinking several Japanese ships with limpet mines. All without a single loss!
On the topic of commandos, mention must also go to the Australian Commandos who fought behind enemy lines in the Pacific. Probably the best example being the 2/2 Independent Companys' almost year long guerilla campaign on Japanese held Timor.


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## Soren (Jan 2, 2008)

Roger that Wildcat, the Z special unit were tough lads.


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## Aussie1001 (Jan 2, 2008)

bloody oath mate....
but what about damage which caused the most of it.....
the SOE and the french resistace caused havoc in france and the SAS in Africa but what about all the others.....


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## plan_D (Jan 2, 2008)

Remember that the SAS did not only operate in the desert. It seems a lot of people are concentrating on that region, when they operated in all of Europe after their formation. I don't know of any CBI or PTO operations though, I think their jungle debut came in the 1950s.


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## Soren (Jan 2, 2008)

plan_D said:


> I do have to say the FG-42 was a remarkable weapon; it was developed solely for the Fallschirm and was never produced in large numbers - fortunately !



Besides the StG.44 the FG-42 was probably the best most advanced smallarm developed during WW2. It was highly accurate, reliable, excellently designed crafted to make it a stable and accurate shooting platform for the user in all firing positions, and it packed a truly mean punch! Thank goodness for the muzzle brake or that weapon would've skyrocketed in full auto. 

For improved accuracy the FG-42 also featured a smart system which in semi auto mode operated from a closed bolt, greatly improving accuracy, and in full auto mode from an open bolt, greatly improving the cooling and prevent "cook off".

The FG-42 special features:
A Bipod (Standard)
A Bayonet (Stanard)
A 4x ZF scope (Optional)
A 30 round mag (Optional)

The FG-42 litterally was the Swiss-army-knife of smallarms.


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## plan_D (Jan 2, 2008)

A wee bit heavy though.


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## Soren (Jan 2, 2008)

At 4.8 kg ? Thats pretty much the same as a bolt action rifle, thats very light Plan_D, esp. for a weapon with its capabilities.

Its a pretty small weapon, version 3 (~8,000 examples manufactured):










The slightly lighter Version 1 (~2,000 examples manufactured):


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## lesofprimus (Jan 2, 2008)

Ive fired one of those beautiful FG-42's a bunch of years ago, and it truly is one of the great weapons from the last 70 years or so... The weight is totally acceptable for the firepower available.... Very accurate...

Its too hard for me to distinguish which was tops, the Brandenburgers or the SAS, both Soren and Pd give great arguments... Also hats off to Wildcat for reminding us of the Pacific side...


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## Soren (Jan 2, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> Ive fired one of those beautiful FG-42's a bunch of years ago, and it truly is one of the great weapons from the last 70 years or so... The weight is totally acceptable for the firepower available.... Very accurate...



Awesome! I bet that was one sweet experience. Which version was it ?


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## bigZ (Jan 2, 2008)

I dont have enough knowledge of SOF to vote. But didn't the SAS manage to destroy more aircraft than the RAF in the desert campaign? 

Wasn't the operation after Jaywick a total failure for the Z special unit(can't remmember the details)?


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## lesofprimus (Jan 2, 2008)

Pretty sure it was Version 3 Soren... I watched the clips u posted, and it fires every bit like those vids.... U need the tripod for sustained autofire....


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## Soren (Jan 3, 2008)

Roger that Les. Was it nice and comfortable to wield for you ? I've heard its one the few smallarms that just fits like a glove.


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## plan_D (Jan 3, 2008)

I've heard that it was considered heavy for an airborne weapon, but thinking about that the British airborne had the Bren Gun at 10 kg - so wherever I heard that is crap. Was the FG-42 produced in small numbers because of the introduction of the StG.44 ? [Frankly, a better weapon for development].


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## lesofprimus (Jan 3, 2008)

The fit was right on Soren, very comfortable.... The armorer that pulled it out treated it as if it was his newborn child....


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## Soren (Jan 3, 2008)

If I owned one I'd treat it the same way ! One valuable piece of equipment there!

Was there a scope on it ?


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## Crumpp (Jan 3, 2008)

Hands down on the Allied side, it was the OSS/SOE. While the others allied SOF forces had some spectacular successes, they were all just tools in the tool bag for the OSS/SOE which maintained the strategic focus.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 3, 2008)

No scope Soren, but if I remember correctly, the armorer said that there used to be one but it broke...


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## Soren (Jan 4, 2008)

Roger that Les. Wish it was me who owned one


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## lesofprimus (Jan 4, 2008)

I totally agree, but I would assume that the private stock for the FG-42 is quite limited...


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