# pics ID help bf109G-10 or G-14/AS



## phoenix7187 (Mar 15, 2008)

I have other pics for the croation mechine "black 4" but this one seems the best. 







This 109 "white 44" is the only pic I could find and it's no very helpfull. IF any of you have front view of this it might clear things up.






I have several questions for the bf109 nuts lurking about. 

1. is there any proof that G-14/AS were equipted with a extended tail wheels of the K-4's? IF no 44 is a G-10. this is my guess

2. I know that depending on point of manfacture and power plant installed a late G-14/AS and a early erla build G-10's may indeed be the same mechine and impossible to visually tell the two apart. this lead to question #3

3. does anyone for sure how to tell a non erla built D or DM powered G-10 from a late G-14/AS. Buldges under the cowling seem to be the same on both to me unless I'm missing something? 

From the Info I have both of these mechines are G-10's. But now a source I trust has now labled them both G-14/AS. In a nut shell I'm trying to double check myself, and at the same time try to learn a better way (if there is one) to tell these two apart. 
Thanks Stan


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## ccheese (Mar 15, 2008)

I donno... but you can bet your last peso, Erich or Wurger will have something
to add to this.... Good pic's, BTW.

Charles


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## Njaco (Mar 15, 2008)

Don't know if you've checked these but they have a few pics and info.

15./Jg 52 History

Bf-109

Yugoslav Partisan Air Force Aircraft


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## A4K (Mar 17, 2008)

I'll have a look through my books at home, mate, and will let you know what I come up with.

I'm pretty certain however that G-14/AS's had extended tailwheels too - a cutaway of one that I have springs to mind, which has this clearly visible.


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## Wurger (Mar 17, 2008)

Hi,
The Bf in the first pic is Bf109G14/AS of the 2 Jato, 1 Zarakoplovna Luka Zagreb.The pic was taken by airmen of 321BG(M) in 1945 at Falconara airfield Italy.On April the 16th 1945 two Bf109G14s flown by Sgt. Josip Cekovic and Vladimir Sandtner landed at the Jasi and Falconara airfields.The "black 4" ( Croatian number 2104) was flown by Sgt. V.Sendtner and landed at the second airfirld.The aircraft has all charakteristic features of late G14/AS version produced by Mtt: a long gear of a tail wheel, a big oil cooler Fo 897,the engine was DB 605AS- its slot of a "cold" engine starting is below the hole for a manual start engine crancle, small bulged fairings on wings and some others.According to my infos the Bf wore the factory applied RLM81/75/76 camo pattern that was touched up by the Croatians with the following coloures RLM70- cross area on the left fuselage side,RLM71- the band on rear part of fuselage,RLM04 quick ID elements ( rudder and the band on front part of fuselage),RLM65- previous German markings.Another source says that the camo pattern was RLM74/83 on upper surfaces,RLM76 lower ones,the fin - RLM81 with RLM83 spots with sharp edges,band on rear part of fuselage - probably RLM71 or 81,quick ID like above and the RLM04 on wingtips on undersides..
Later the Bf was used by 318 Polish Squadron with standard RAF markings and additional Polish.Some additional infos here : http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-pictures/polish-bf-109-a-669.html

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/at...11d1107477342-polish-bf-109-polish_bf_109.jpg

As far as the second pic is concerned I have to dig up dipper.Or Erich will add some infos on that subject.


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## Erich (Mar 17, 2008)

the Bf 109G-10 Weiße 44 is from NSGr 20


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## Wurger (Mar 17, 2008)

Are you surre Erich? Was that the Bf109G-10 Werk Nr. 930342 or it was Bf109G-10/AS Werk Nr.130342 ?


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## Erich (Mar 17, 2008)

Würger and all. I was sent the original negs to copy so I have several different G-10's then under RCAF supervision some years back for one of my book projects.


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## A4K (Mar 18, 2008)

Fantastic info there guys!


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## Wurger (Mar 18, 2008)

Erich said:


> Würger and all. I was sent the original negs to copy so I have several different G-10's then under RCAF supervision some years back for one of my book projects.




Hi,
You have got me wrong Erich I'm affraid.I've found a colour profile and a pic of two Weiße 44s.The profile caption says that it was Bf109G-10/AS from unidentified unit and tested in UK.Werk Nr.930342 and the pic description states G-10/As Werk Nr.130342.I think it is the same Bf and that there is a mistake in its caption.Therefore I've asked.


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## Erich (Mar 18, 2008)

there is a good chance that these grey-blue 109's were repainted after capture, tested and then junked.

there is no AS version of the G-10 as far as I am aware, have talked with many 109 experten on this issue, books state so and then not. In any case they are not G-14/AS from this night unit but G-10's. Surely there had to have been a mix, some of the a/c besides doing hazordous ground attack aat night also did some at day besides taking on P-47's in day light raids


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## A4K (Mar 18, 2008)

I think Erich might be right regarding the AS. I've read of G-6/AS and G-14/AS aircraft, but to my knowledge the G-10 was the standardized aircraft resulting from these modifications, hence no suffix needed.


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## Wurger (Mar 18, 2008)

I think Erich is right because we were discussing the problem earlier when Seesul needed ID of Bf109G.Looking at the white44 pic I couldn't see the double trim tabs on trailing edges of the elevators.As I remember G-10 had these.So, both captions below the profile and the pic of White44 I've found are incorrect.What is more the Werk numbers are also different ( 930342 and 130342) but I think it is a mistake.Can you see 930/130?
Erich has written the Bf was from NSGr 20 so I thought he knows it serial ( Werk Nr.)


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## Erich (Mar 18, 2008)

many times the Werke nummer was painted over on single engine nf's - Bf 109G's and K's. like I said I have other views of White 43 and 44 and 4 and others of night ground attack and the night fighter unit NJG 11 for one of my future book projects


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## Wurger (Mar 18, 2008)

Aha ....We have to wait for your new book, don't we?


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## A4K (Mar 18, 2008)

I don't see any Werk nummer on the tail in the picture of white 44 above, it looks as though they painted over them completely.
It does seem to have a late G-10 rudder too, looking at those trim tabs.

Do you guys have any other pictures of 44?

Black 4's rudder is of the earlier style -either G-14/AS or early G-10, I'd say.


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## phoenix7187 (Mar 18, 2008)

Thanks for the info erich and wurger. Yes you are right, there were some early G-10's built at the erla plant what were equipted with the ASM power plant but these mechines did not carry the AS prefix because they were never meant for production but just a side effect of lack of DM engine and late war mess. So there is no G-10/AS.
After I believe june of 44 all 109's were equipted with the MW50 boost system. There for unlike other AS or ASM power G-4/6 varaints you can not ID them by the 100 oct fuel stencil as all Late G-14's, G-10's and K-4's would have the same Fuel requirments (dur to both high compression engines and a requirment to operate MW50 system) 
So basically you can have a G-14 or G14/AS with a extended tail wheel and the G-10 type tail with no external trim tabs. You are both thinking the top one is a G-14/AS and the night fighter is a G-10.
I'm not at home right at this time, so I read over your post quickly, when I get back tonight I'll look at it more closely, Thanks again guy's.


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## Denniss (Mar 18, 2008)

All G-6/G-14s used standard 87 Oktan B4 fuel. The only exception was during the introduction of the MW50 injection system when they initially used 100 Oktan C3 fuel (maybe during the introduction of the 605AS engine as well). Those aircraft were often marked with red colored landing gear. C3 was used to prevent massive engine damage by predetonation if MW50 failed while using the high boost. But the system proved to work reliable so they everted back to the standard B4.

The G-10 initially used C3 with MW50 but later standardized on B4+MW50. It could be reconfigured for C3 without MW50.


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## A4K (Mar 19, 2008)

Wojtek mate, I owe you an apology! :

(From ’German aircraft interiors 1939-1945’ by Kenneth A. Merrick):

’...Another version of the G-10 was an interim model known as the Bf 109G-10/AS. This fighter, powered by the DB 605 AS engine, also appeared in November 1944 but was considered only a stop-gap variant until the production of DB 605D engines became more constant. Relatively few of the fighter, characterized by their slightly different cowlings and forward fueslage contours, were manufactured...’

(Photo of Bf 109G-10/AS W.Nr 150816 Black 4 of 6/ JG51 shows the bulge aft of the propeller (almost directly below the front exhaust) is non existant on G-10/AS aircraft, but very apparent on standard G-10’s)

Also mentioned:

’The Bf 109G-10 series employed several different rudders in combination with two different tail wheel legs.’ (Your white 44, and all three G-10/U-4’s exported to the US had: ) ’type 8-009.320 rudder assembly, characterized by fully adjustable Flettner trim tab located about mid way along trailing edge and supplemented by two additional tabs which were only adjustable on the ground’


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## seesul (Mar 19, 2008)

off topic, sorry guys, but I like to know the opinion of you guys that haven´t seen this thread yet, especially A4K and Deniss
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/willi-reschke-s-g-august-29th-1944-a-9055.html
What do you think and why? Add your answers to above mentioned thread please...

Many thanks


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## A4K (Mar 19, 2008)

Done, Roman! Left a comment on the thread. Evan


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## phoenix7187 (Mar 19, 2008)

Denniss said:


> All G-6/G-14s used standard 87 Oktan B4 fuel. The only exception was during the introduction of the MW50 injection system when they initially used 100 Oktan C3 fuel (maybe during the introduction of the 605AS engine as well). Those aircraft were often marked with red colored landing gear. C3 was used to prevent massive engine damage by predetonation if MW50 failed while using the high boost. But the system proved to work reliable so they everted back to the standard B4.
> 
> The G-10 initially used C3 with MW50 but later standardized on B4+MW50. It could be reconfigured for C3 without MW50.



Denniss I did not know that. I was under the impression that all AS, and D engines due to higher compression, increased supercharger pressure, and the use of the MW50 specified 100 oct fuel. You could and they did use 87 but at the cost of performance loss and you could not use the MW50. Engine output on the d (I think) was rated at 2000 hp with 100 but 1850 with 87. Or is this in error.

Thanks all for the help on the ID. you gave me alot of great info.


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## Wurger (Mar 20, 2008)

A4K said:


> Wojtek mate, I owe you an apology! :


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## Denniss (Mar 20, 2008)

phoenix7187 said:


> Denniss I did not know that. I was under the impression that all AS, and D engines due to higher compression, increased supercharger pressure, and the use of the MW50 specified 100 oct fuel. You could and they did use 87 but at the cost of performance loss and you could not use the MW50. Engine output on the d (I think) was rated at 2000 hp with 100 but 1850 with 87. Or is this in error.
> 
> Thanks all for the help on the ID. you gave me alot of great info.



605AS did not have higher boost, it was a modified 605A with a larger supercharger for higher rated altitude within the boost limits of the 605A. MW-50 was acting as replacement for an intercooler and it worked as anti-detonant to allow higher boost pressures with standard fuel. The 605D could be run with B4+MW50 or C3 without MW50 to achieve 1850, later 1800, PS. The higher boosted 605DC required high grade C3 fuel with MW50.


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## seesul (Mar 21, 2008)

Denniss said:


> 605AS did not have higher boost, it was a modified 605A with a larger supercharger for higher rated altitude within the boost limits of the 605A. MW-50 was acting as replacement for an intercooler and it worked as anti-detonant to allow higher boost pressures with standard fuel. The 605D could be run with B4+MW50 or C3 without MW50 to achieve 1850, later 1800, PS. The higher boosted 605DC required high grade C3 fuel with MW50.



Good info Dennis, thanks for that!


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