# Honour in War ??



## Hunter368 (Dec 22, 2005)

Is there any such thing as Honour in War or is just kill or be killed last man standing. Is honour in war a silly concept even ? Can two enemies fight honourably or no way. 

ie In WW2 USA pilots were encoraged (not sure if it was a rule or not) to shoot pilots that parachuted out of jet planes. While every nation did shoot pilots in the parachutes on ocassion I think that USA was the only nation to encourage it. Anyone help clear this up as a side note.

In "The First and the Last" Galland says he was approached by Goering to see if his fighter pilots would think of that, Galland said he would never do it or tell his pilots to do it. Is that silly or honorable?

After reading many books on German Aces a few of them tell stories about how they let go or even escorted enemy planes that were shot up back to their lines, instead of shooting them down. Is that silly or honorable?

I would really like to hear from everyone on this one but I would really like to hear from any guys that are actually vets (plz let us know that you are a vet if you are) of any conflict on this.

Thanks Mark


----------



## Hunter368 (Dec 22, 2005)

No comments ?


----------



## plan_D (Dec 22, 2005)

You're a tit. 

The code of honour has been 'written' in the minds of warriors for centuries. What defines honour in combat and honour in society is completely different. Basing combat off what you encounter day in and day out is 'silly'. 

Honour in war is pulling a little humanity and respect out of something that is everything but honourable, and respectful. 

Letting a man float to the ground - honourable. 

Escorting a crippled plane back to it's own lines after an impressive 'show' - honourable.

But this would have to be the point of view of the man, or men, in combat. There are no real rules of conflict, despite the fact there's attempts to impose some. However, rules, guidelines and 'laws' are written into that nations culture ... 

Honour in war is a culture thing. 

And the U.S didn't encourage shooting people in parachutes. That's just arse, and you know it.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Dec 22, 2005)

Ask about Japanese shooting US pilots out of their chutes!


----------



## Nonskimmer (Dec 22, 2005)

Hunter368 said:


> In WW2 USA pilots were encoraged (not sure if it was a rule or not) to shoot pilots that parachuted out of jet planes. While every nation did shoot pilots in the parachutes on ocassion I think that USA was the only nation to encourage it.


What are you basing that on? Did you read it in a book or see it online somewhere? TV maybe?
Are you talking about an official directive to shoot German pilots in their chutes?


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Dec 22, 2005)

I actually saw a documentary recently where a US pilot was talking about shooting German pilots while parachuting - there were doing this in retribution for the same action by the Germans - If I remember their command told them to knock it off....

I think the interviewee was Bud Anderson?!

If this did happen I think it was far and few in the western front, now if we were talking the Russian front, I won't be surprised.

I would tend to believe the Japanese were probably the over-all parachute aces of WW2....


----------



## evangilder (Dec 23, 2005)

Where the hell did you hear that the US "encouraged" pilots to shoot guys in their parachutes? That is a load of claptrap. I am sure there were pilots that did, but it was not the official policy.

As far as honor in war, I think that sounds too much like a college course taught by some academic beard stroker. 

Having seen a few firefights in my life, I can tell you that I saw some guys do some crazy brave things. I saw people do stupid things, suicidal things and just plain bad things. How you guage things as honorable, stupid, brave or cowardly is really a judgement call. But no one who wasn't there can make that determination.

Having said that, you want honorable? Look at ANY US medic. There isn't a medic that I have met that wasn't a first class, number one fucking HERO.


----------



## Jabberwocky (Dec 23, 2005)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Ask about Japanese shooting US pilots out of their chutes!



As Japanese saliors about US pilots straffing troops swiming away from sinking troop carriers.

Bad things happened by all sides during the war. Let he who has commited no sin cast the first stone. 

Generally speaking, the Western Allies held up certain notions of humanity and equality better than their Axis or Soviet counterparts, but even they have their own shameful moments.


----------



## lesofprimus (Dec 23, 2005)

In the book that erich and I are reading, VOL.I JG 300, there are numerous instances where German pilots were strafed while in their chutes, and the different interviewees thought it a cowardly and dastardly act...

On the plus side, not many seem to actually get hit, which leads me to possibly believe that the Americans were firing their guns to get film footage and confirm the kill....

But I agree with everyone... It happened everywhere, and all parties were guilty... However I will state that strafing swimming troops on the way to the beach where ur brothers are fighting for their lives makes perfect sense...


----------



## Hunter368 (Dec 23, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> Hunter368 said:
> 
> 
> > In WW2 USA pilots were encoraged (not sure if it was a rule or not) to shoot pilots that parachuted out of jet planes. While every nation did shoot pilots in the parachutes on ocassion I think that USA was the only nation to encourage it.
> ...



I have read it and heard on TV many times.... I am surprised you guys have not, but I am not trying to start anything by saying that, I have heard it so many times I thought it was common knowledge. I will have to reseach it and I will quote those books. No problem I will find it for you guys and let you know then.


----------



## Hunter368 (Dec 23, 2005)

evangilder said:


> Where the hell did you hear that the US "encouraged" pilots to shoot guys in their parachutes? That is a load of claptrap. I am sure there were pilots that did, but it was not the official policy.
> 
> As far as honor in war, I think that sounds too much like a college course taught by some academic beard stroker.
> 
> ...




Evan, like I said in my other post I will find the sources of that, I thought it was common knowledge I have seen it so much, I meant no insult. Yes I agree medics have a crazy tuff job. They are heros in a often thankless job.


----------



## Pisis (Dec 23, 2005)

"ie In WW2 USA pilots were encoraged (not sure if it was a rule or not) to shoot pilots that parachuted out of jet planes."

that's fucking bullshit! if someone did so, it was his own initiative....... it happened of course but it couldn't be a law........


----------



## Hunter368 (Dec 23, 2005)

Pisis said:


> "ie In WW2 USA pilots were encoraged (not sure if it was a rule or not) to shoot pilots that parachuted out of jet planes."
> 
> that's f*cking bullshit! if someone did so, it was his own initiative....... it happened of course but it couldn't be a law........



Like I said I will try and find a few sources for you guys, I will get back to you. If it is wrong that is fine, I just have read several times. Maybe the guys writing it were wrong.


----------



## Pisis (Dec 23, 2005)

maybe.......


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Dec 23, 2005)

Jabberwocky said:


> FLYBOYJ said:
> 
> 
> > Ask about Japanese shooting US pilots out of their chutes!
> ...



Shooting pilots from their chutes is one thing, strafing troops, especially troops that fought ferociously and won't surrender is another..

But I agree with the 2dn statement 100%


----------



## Hunter368 (Dec 23, 2005)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Jabberwocky said:
> 
> 
> > FLYBOYJ said:
> ...



I agree fb 100% I have read alot on German pilots from WW2 (more than anyother nations pilots), the comment about USA pilots shooting German jet pilots might just of been their thoughts only. I will try and find it.


----------



## Pisis (Dec 23, 2005)

One Czechoslovak pilot told me that Germans did the same thing to RAF pilots........


----------



## Erich (Dec 23, 2005)

sorry to dispel your thoughts gents but it was an unwritten order that went around the section commanders ordered their Mustang pilots to drill any bomber killers, this included Bf 110G-2 crews in the fall winter of 43/44 till wars end. the sturm FW boyz literall went down to ground elvel and then flipped up and over to bail out below 500 ft hoping they would not crahs into trees, the ground or houses, the jete boyz received no better treatments at the hands of the US prop jobs. The cine films of too many Mustangs proves my statement to the full........... the 357th was notorious and Bud has described the instance in only very very brief details. hard to suck up I know but. When asked of at least 5 US Mustang pilots they siad basically nothing and tired to change the subject. Was it done........."yes" was the reply. Les mentions the JG 300 volume 1 that unit diary just goes to mid september, and I can assure you the unit got pasted later in the winter through till wars end when fighting both the Russians and the US fighters

v/r E life is fickle ............ Roger Wilco !


----------



## Hunter368 (Dec 23, 2005)

Oh there is no doubt that all nations did it sometimes. I don't know if I have not read a book about someone doing it. Just are those only isolated incidents or not. Thats what I am asking if anyone has information on it or not that would be great. The only thing am I asking has anyone heard of USA pilots being encouraged to do it vs German jet pilots or not. Thats all I was asking. I sent Eric a PM to see if he has heard of that, waiting to hear from him.


----------



## Hunter368 (Dec 23, 2005)

Erich said:


> sorry to dispel your thoughts gents but it was an unwritten order that went around the section commanders ordered their Mustang pilots to drill any bomber killers, this included Bf 110G-2 crews in the fall winter of 43/44 till wars end. the sturm FW boyz literall went down to ground elvel and then flipped up and over to bail out below 500 ft hoping they would not crahs into trees, the ground or houses, the jete boyz received no better treatments at the hands of the US prop jobs. The cine films of too many Mustangs proves my statement to the full........... the 357th was notorious and Bud has described the instance in only very very brief details. hard to suck up I know but. When asked of at least 5 US Mustang pilots they siad basically nothing and tired to change the subject. Was it done........."yes" was the reply. Les mentions the JG 300 volume 1 that unit diary just goes to mid september, and I can assure you the unit got pasted later in the winter through till wars end when fighting both the Russians and the US fighters
> 
> v/r E life is fickle ............ Roger Wilco !



Thanks Eric I thought that was true. I have read about it many times. Yes German pilots were scared to bale out at high attitudes b/c they knew they would be shot floating down. I have also read how they would try and stay in their ship until very low and then jump. Many died tried to get to that lower attitude.


----------



## Pisis (Dec 23, 2005)

that's some new stuff to me.....


----------



## Erich (Dec 23, 2005)

Pisis, actually it is quite old news only released the last 10 years or so, as the vets are talking not just of their own personal prowess in the air but the deep down dirt which is typical war. you probably cannot even count the numbers of shootdowns of Luftwaffe pilots and it isn;t just the trivial unknowns that did this. As I said the 357thfg is high on the list and the jugs of the 56th. The Bf 110G crews since their Br 21cm were witnessed by Jug p[ilots causing such canrage whwen they did carnage amongst the B-17 formations, the Jug chaps went after the Bf 110's with a vengence/hate. when the 110's belly landed the a/c and crews were blown away if at all possible, same case with Me 262 crews from JG 7, the R4M's did such lethal damge the Mustang pilots of course witnessing this were pissed off, the idea you eliminate one experienced jet crewman then that is one less jet to have to contend with.......

as I have said too many times, war sucks, for all sides


----------



## Gnomey (Dec 23, 2005)

> as I have said too many times, war sucks, for all sides


Exactly, and things happen in war that would not happen in peacetime. "War is Hell" and you have to live with that. There is honour in war but there is only so far that it can go as shown by the examples Erich has shown above.


----------



## Pisis (Dec 23, 2005)

Erich,

i can believe it. The same thing boosted the Czechoslovak and Poles because they witnessed what Germans did to their nations...... But all the airmen I had the honour to meet told me they were attacking primary the machines......... They also said "killing the Huns" but whenever they were in their aircraft. I think murdering defenseless figure hanging on the silk is sick..........


----------



## Erich (Dec 23, 2005)

very true there seemed to be still some type of honour code with the Luftwaffe though many would disagree. they of course did spread the terror with the Ju 87's 39-42 and all were susceptible whether military or civilian alike, /// what goes around comes around and the German populace felt it from 43 till wars end .........


----------



## Pisis (Dec 23, 2005)

.......and after the war.....


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 26, 2005)

Well here is my take on it. All sides did it. There were Luftwaffe pilots who shot down parachuters, there were US pilots that shot down parachuters, there were British pilots that shot down parachuters. I believe FBJ is on the money though when he says that the Japs were the aces of parachute kills.

The point though is that War is Hell and who cares if some of these pilots did these things. Overall most pilots were of an honorable breed.

Hunter yes there is Honor in war. I have been in the military now for almost 6 years and been on 2 deployments; one to Kosovo and one on a combat tour to Iraq. In those 6 years including the year in Iraq and 10 months in Kosovo I have seen many many honorable things. And these honorable things came from US Military personel. In Iraq I saw things that were so heroic and honorable that it brought me to to tears.


----------



## Hunter368 (Dec 27, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Well here is my take on it. All sides did it. There were Luftwaffe pilots who shot down parachuters, there were US pilots that shot down parachuters, there were British pilots that shot down parachuters. I believe FBJ is on the money though when he says that the Japs were the aces of parachute kills.
> 
> The point though is that War is Hell and who cares if some of these pilots did these things. Overall most pilots were of an honorable breed.
> 
> Hunter yes there is Honor in war. I have been in the military now for almost 6 years and been on 2 deployments; one to Kosovo and one on a combat tour to Iraq. In those 6 years including the year in Iraq and 10 months in Kosovo I have seen many many honorable things. And these honorable things came from US Military personel. In Iraq I saw things that were so heroic and honorable that it brought me to to tears.



Thank you for your very insightful opinion Chris.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 28, 2005)

Thankyou


----------

