# Messerschmidt 109--Raf AE479 Pics



## samjkramer (Apr 22, 2010)

Hey all...
Newbie to the board but I thought I might get some help here so I wanted to shoot out a quick post. I work at a local non-profit in online sales and recently someone donated a metal box containing a few hundred negatives. I'm big into genealogy so naturally, I wanted to find the soldier's family and return them but after digging without a name it looks to be impossible...

We've been selling off bits and pieces of the collection but I've held a certain grouping back because it seemed incredible to me. I'd like to post the pics and get your thoughts.

I know that there is a Messerschmidt 109 pictured and it looks as if this soldier (he was a Petty Officer, 1st Class Aircrew Gunner and Aviation Ordnanceman, BTW) was photographing the filming of a propaganda film for the Allies. Any thoughts on the other planes or the Messerschmidt would be fantastic. I just can't bring myself to sell at least this little bit...


























The tail on the above photo looks to read X7718.






















Any help on identifying the planes and what might be going on in the photos of the Messerschmidt would be great. Thanks in advance!


----------



## bobbysocks (Apr 22, 2010)

nice pics...welcome to the forum samjkramer


----------



## al49 (Apr 22, 2010)

samjkramer said:


> Hey all...
> ...
> Any thoughts on the other planes or the Messerschmidt would be fantastic. I just can't bring myself to sell at least this little bit...
> ...
> Any help on identifying the planes and what might be going on in the photos of the Messerschmidt would be great. Thanks in advance!



Hi,
I'm not an expert but the Messerschmitt photo tells me an interesting story.
As far as I know, most of the BF 109 captured by the British were late models found more-less wrecked on European airfields after D-Day.
But the one in the picture seems to be a BF 109-E (Emily) whose production ended in early 1941 to be replaced by the better -F (Friedrich)
It could be an aeroplane which force landed in UK during the Battle of Britain.
For sure there will be real experts that will tell you everything on the other aeroplanes.
By the way, do you have any other photos of German/Italian aircraft in the collection?
Cheers
Alberto


----------



## imalko (Apr 22, 2010)

> Any help on identifying the planes and what might be going on in the photos of the Messerschmidt would be great. Thanks in advance!



Great set of pictures. I wouldn't sell them either. The planes are (from the bottom picture upwards):

- Bell P-39 Airacobra (C-47 Dakota in the background)
- Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress (early version)
- Chance Vought F4U Corsair (in the foreground of the picture)
- Lockheed Hudson 
- Bristol Type 156 Beaufighter
- for group of high-wing planes shown on this picture I'm not sure which precise types are these
- Grumman TBF Avenger 
- Curtiss P-40
- Messerschmitt Bf 109E (E-4 subtype by the looks of the canopy frames) with a p-40 in the back

Hope this helps. I'm not familiar with the story behind this captured Bf 109 though.

And welcome to the forum samjkramer.


----------



## Airframes (Apr 22, 2010)

The Messerschmitt (not _schmidt_) is a Bf109E1 from JG 54 (formerly JG21) which was captured by the French in 1940, and subsequently flown to the R.A.E. at Farnborough, UK, where it underwent extensive testing and evaluation. It was allocated the British serial number AE479, and given R.A.F roundels, although when first captured it had the French tricolor tail markings painted on the rudder. It was eventually sent to the USA, where the photo was presumably taken.
The other aircraft in the photos are:- Curtiss P40, Grumman Avenger, in the line-up what appear to be a Stinson Reliant, Piper Cub/Grasshopper and a Fairchild Argus (possibly).
The all-black twin-engined aircraft is a Bristol Beaufighter (night fighter), followed by a Lockheed Lodestar, Vought Corsair with a T6 Texan behind, an early Boeing B17C, and finally, a Bell P39 Airacobra, with either a Douglas DC2 or DC3/C47 (Dakota) in the background.
Hope this helps.


----------



## pbfoot (Apr 22, 2010)

The B17 seems to be a different periods with the snow on the ground , the Lockheed has Canadian civil markings and is more then likely Trans Canada Airlines the forerunner of Air Canada


----------



## beaupower32 (Apr 22, 2010)

Its intresting that the 109 still has the swastica still applied. Any reason why, as I figured it would be painted out along with the rest of the markings.


----------



## Airframes (Apr 22, 2010)

I hadn't spotted that! Far as I remember, it was painted out, along with the Balkenkreuz , and French markings applied. The Staffel number,'1', and the Gruppe badge, were left originally, but painted out whilst the aircraft was at Farnborough. The French markings in turn were overpainted with RAF roundels, and the RAF fin flash, the French tricolor stripes on the rudder being overpainted. The swastika shown in the pic appears to be 'solid' black, which was incorrect for the period, so perhaps it was re-applied in the U.S., maybe for that photo-shoot/filming?


----------



## imalko (Apr 23, 2010)

Also in the last picture where Airacobra is shown a part of the Bf 109 wing can be seen with swastika painted over the roundel...


----------



## A4K (Apr 23, 2010)

I think it has been re-applied, as was the US habit of the time - even the Ho IX received Hakenkreuz that were never applied originally. 
Also say this as the size and style (as Terry said) is wrong, and I can't see them carefully painting the white around it, myself...

Welcome Sam, and if you're interested in others photos and colour plans of that '109, drop us your address in a PM.

Evan


----------



## Snautzer01 (Apr 23, 2010)

The Messerschmitt Bf-109*E-3*, W.nr.1304, flown by Fw Karl Hier of 1./JG76 landed near Woerth, Bas-Rhin, some 12 miles on the French side of the border and was captured by the French on 22 Nov 1939. It was first flown in French colours but retained its I/JG76 insignia, constructor's number and white figure 1.

The aircraft was handed over to the RAF at Amiens on 2 May 1940 and the following day Brown flew this aircraft to the A AEE at Boscombe Down. On 14 May 1940 the plane was flown to the RAE and given the serial AE479.
On 7 April 1942 the plane was shipped to the USA.


----------



## Airframes (Apr 23, 2010)

Thanks Snautzer! That's clarified a few things. I replied having only briefly looked at some conflicting information, and have since found the books I _should_ have refered to! You are, of course, quite right. Captions to some photos in the source I used had been transposed, and the aircraft in question was accompanied by an illuastration of the E1 of JG21 (later JG54), which has the unit badge visible on the starboard side, and was 'White 1', captured by the French also.
The aircraft pictured is often confused with the E3 of JG51, W.Nr 4101, which force-landed at Manston, and was given the RAF serial DG200, and normally pictured without the opening section of the canopy, which was removed to accommodate the British pilot testing it!!
Great pic BTW, haven't seen that one before, thanks.


----------



## samjkramer (Apr 23, 2010)

MAN! Thanks so much fellas!

I wish I could figure out exactly WHY this Messerschmitt was at this particular airfield. There has to be something big going on -- there are men in full dress, cameras, movies being made, so many different aircraft. I guess it'll remain a mystery...

The P39 (or 40?) in the last picture I posted has a little background I've dug up. The serial on that plane is 41-7249 and there's a record showing that at one point it was assigned to 306th Fighter Squadron, 338th Fighter Group and piloted by Henderson O. Rose when it landed short of the field at Dale Mabry in FL.

That pilot, Henderson Rose, was later a 2nd Lieutenant with the 347th Fighter Squadron, 350th Firghter Group and was KIA in North Africa on 20 Aug 1945. He's buried at the Tunis Permanent Cemetery in Tunisia...

Little details like that make this pictures just so awesome to me. I don't know how anyone could basically throw away such a great part of their family history...

Again, thanks for all the help and if anyone has anymore thoughts, toss 'em out there!


----------



## al49 (Apr 23, 2010)

samjkramer said:


> MAN! Thanks so much fellas!
> ...
> 
> That pilot, Henderson Rose, was later a 2nd Lieutenant with the 347th Fighter Squadron, 350th Firghter Group and was KIA in North Africa on 20 Aug 1945. He's buried at the Tunis Permanent Cemetery in Tunisia...
> ...



Hi,
just a quick comment, are you sure that guy was KIA on 20 Aug 1945? It should be 20 Aug *1943* because the war in North Africa was over in 1945!
Cheers
Alberto


----------



## Airframes (Apr 23, 2010)

Some of the aircraft, and their markings, seem vaguley familiar somehow. I wonder if these were collected for a movie, maybe 'Ferry Pilot', or 'A Yank in the RAF' or similar? Of course, it could be something to do with an evaluation and test centre.


----------



## res6kgcr (Apr 23, 2010)

Hi samjkramer

Most of the photos are taken at LaGuardia, airport NYC, the private civilian aircraft probably are also at LaGuardia by look of all that concrete. 

I don’t know where the navy aircraft are but by the red and white water tower in the background they are at some U.S. training field.

The B-17C is 40-2046 used for gun turret test at Wright field (note the turrets), and is listed as to Eglin Air Proving Ground May 1942 for testing 2 20-mm cannon in nose, and to RFC Oct 4, 1945.

The Beaufighter X7718 is listed as received at Wright field 17 May 1942, then listed scraped at AAF School Applied Tactics, Orlando, Florida by 1 April 1944.

It looks to me that the photos with the solders with the rifles are part of some AAF demonstration in the spring or summer of 1942. And it looks like that it was film for a newsreel which I would love to see.

Best to you all

Tom Michel


----------



## Airframes (Apr 23, 2010)

Great info, and first post, Tom!!


----------



## samjkramer (Apr 23, 2010)

al49 said:


> Hi,
> just a quick comment, are you sure that guy was KIA on 20 Aug 1945? It should be 20 Aug *1943* because the war in North Africa was over in 1945!
> Cheers
> Alberto



You're right Al, got my dates transcribed wrong! Anyone know of anyway to find out exactly what happened to him, short of requesting records? It's a tangent that really doesn't relate to the photos at all but I'm still curious.


----------



## samjkramer (Apr 23, 2010)

Tom, THANKS!

Might there be a newsreel repository somewhere? I've got a trip scheduled to NARA in St Louis late this summer -- perhaps they could help. I too would LOVE to see that...


----------



## al49 (Apr 23, 2010)

samjkramer said:


> You're right Al, got my dates transcribed wrong! Anyone know of anyway to find out exactly what happened to him, short of requesting records? It's a tangent that really doesn't relate to the photos at all but I'm still curious.


If the guy has been hit by a German or Italian aircraft it should be possible to find the who was, I will let you know if i find something.
Alberto


----------



## samjkramer (Apr 23, 2010)

Thanks a million Alberto!

Honestly, my interest in all these photographs really lies in the genealogy aspect of it but being a WWII history sponge, I'm interested in that aspect too.

Let me know what you find, I'm stoked!


----------



## al49 (Apr 24, 2010)

samjkramer said:


> Thanks a million Alberto!
> 
> Honestly, my interest in all these photographs really lies in the genealogy aspect of it but being a WWII history sponge, I'm interested in that aspect too.
> 
> Let me know what you find, I'm stoked!



Hi
I posted the photo of P39 and the info available on pilot Henderson Rose and one best Italian WW2 aviation expert, Ferdinando D'Amico, posted back this brief text





So, not an hit from an Axis pilot but a training accident but still KIA.
In his comment Ferdinando explains that the article appeared on the magazine "De-nuss-ance"..., official (?) magazine of "Screaming Red Ass".
Still according to Ferdinando, 47th FS, 350th FG remained on Taher field (Algeria) until November 1943 then moved to Ghisonaccia in Corsica. During that period its P-39 and two P-38 operated to chase Axis aeroplanes active against Allies naval traffic between Africa and Sicily. 
Cheers
Alberto


----------



## res6kgcr (Apr 24, 2010)

Hi All,

Found a color picture of 41-25026 ship 41 probably of the 59th PS/33rd PG which was a I Interceptor Command unit operating out of G.L. Martin Aprt, Md., and then Philadelphia, Pa. for most of 1942. The 33rd FG was then part of the North African invasion in November 1942. 

It looks to me like the same pilot, at least he looks to be dress the same.






And for some nice pre-war color photos, taken by the late W.C. Wall Sr., of the coming and goings from the observation deck at La Guardia.











Best to you all,

Tom Michel


----------



## Catch22 (Apr 24, 2010)

All of those photos (save the B-17, that's sure an early model, and there's snow on the ground so it could have been taken at any time) are late war, possibly even shortly after the war. Though it's somewhat hard to tell due to the colouration of the photos, both the F4U and the Avenger are painted overall dark sea blue, and that scheme didn't come into effect until near the end of the war (and Avengers tended to still be painted in the tri-colour scheme later than the other planes). It's interesting because that F4U is an F4U-1A, as shown by the lack of underwing rocket rails and underbelly pylons for droptanks/munitions. It's also interesting that it's painted in overall dark sea blue, as only the last -1As were painted like that. It could also possibly be an older one that saw service in the Pacific and was refurbished in the States for training.

Very cool photos, thanks for sharing them!


----------



## Catch22 (Apr 24, 2010)

All of those photos (save the B-17, that's sure an early model, and there's snow on the ground so it could have been taken at any time) are late war, possibly even shortly after the war (before '48 I believe as the US roundels don't have the red bars in them yet). Though it's somewhat hard to tell due to the colouration of the photos, both the F4U and the Avenger are painted overall dark sea blue, and that scheme didn't come into effect until near the end of the war (and Avengers tended to still be painted in the tri-colour scheme later than the other planes). It's interesting because that F4U is an F4U-1A, as shown by the lack of underwing rocket rails and underbelly pylons for droptanks/munitions. It's also interesting that it's painted in overall dark sea blue, as only the last -1As were painted like that. It could also possibly be an older one that saw service in the Pacific and was refurbished in the States for training.

Very cool photos, thanks for sharing them!


----------



## antoni (Apr 24, 2010)

During combat on 22nd November 1939 between French pilots of GC III/7 and Germans from I/JG 76 one of the German pilots became lost and landed by mistake at the French airfield Strasbourg-Woerth in Alsace (photo 1). The Bf 109 E-3 of 1./JG 76 White 1 wknr 1304 was piloted by Karl Heir who became a POW. The aircraft was taken to the research facility Armee de l’Air Centra d’Essaisd du Materie Aerien at Orlean-Bricy. There they made comparative tests with the Dewoitine D.520, Bloch MB 152 and Spitfire Mk I obtained from the British. German markings were painted over and French markings applied. Tactical number and I/JG 76 emblem remained. A camera was installed under wing for filming combat simulations (photos 2 3).

On 2nd May 1940 the French lent the aircraft to the British. It was flown from Chartes to Tangmere by F/O Hilly Brown of 1 Squadron, then to Boscombe Down and the hands of the RAE. French roundels were replaced by British A1 style roundels and the stripes on the rudder reversed. Undersides were painted yellow except for the control surfaces, ailerons, flaps and elevators, which were lest n the original light blue. The number 1 and emblem were retained (photos 4,5 6). It was given the serial number AE479 and used for comparative tests with the Hurricane Mk I and Spitfire Mk I by the A&AEE in May and June 1940. 

Between May and July 194o and July 1941 it made 78 flights totalling 49 hours operating from Farnborough and Northolt. It stayed with the RAE until 254th July 1941 W/C I.R. Campbell-Odre flew it from Farnborough to Duxford to deliver it to the Air Fighting Development Unit. It returned to Farnborough on the 20th November. As a result of a crash the tail of wknr 1480 (Franz von Werra’s aircraft) was used for repairs. After repairs it was handed to 1426 (Enemy Aircraft ) Flight on 11th December 1941. 

In January 1942 it was dismantled and crated for transit to the USA. It left on 7th April 1942 on the freighter S.S. Dramesford. After arrival (May 1942 to Wright Field Dayton Ohio) it was damaged and never flew again.


----------



## antoni (Apr 24, 2010)

From the beginning of 1941 the aircraft appears in the standard RAF scheme of Dark Earth/Dark Green with under surfaces completely Yellow. The stripes on the rudder over painted and replaces with a fin flash. There was a yellow gas patch on the upper surface of the port wing. Some parts still retained the original German paint, spinner, inspection panels etc. In the later photographs the are some differences with the original 1304 which has led some to speculate that it is another aircraft. One possibility is that the fuselage up to the fuselage main spar was replaced (not with von Werra’s) and only the engine and wings left of 1304. There is an unidentified wk nr on the port side of the fin just above the stabilizer’s root.


----------



## antoni (Apr 24, 2010)

The last photo.


----------



## al49 (Apr 24, 2010)

Very interesting, thanks for letting us know this story.
Alberto


----------



## samjkramer (Apr 25, 2010)

Spectacular! Thanks SOOOOOOOO much for the help guys!

I've got quite a few more pictures sitting at work so I'll try and take some time to get them scanned in. I'd still love to find out who this guy was and what happened to him but that looks like a lost cause...

Again, thanks so much folks .


----------



## al49 (Apr 25, 2010)

samjkramer said:


> Spectacular! Thanks SOOOOOOOO much for the help guys!
> 
> ...
> I'd still love to find out who this guy was and what happened to him but that looks like a lost cause...
> ...



Are you speaking about Henderson Rose? I posted some info yesterday, probably you miss them.
Cheers
Alberto


----------



## macharvard (Apr 30, 2010)

Catch 22, regarding the date of the F4U and Avenger photos, I can shed a tiny bit of light. The aircraft beside the F4U is an AT-6F/SNJ-6, the contract for which was let in February 1944. Given that, this photo is unlikely to have been taken much before the summer of 1944.

cheers
Doug


----------



## Catch22 (May 1, 2010)

Hi Doug,

Thanks for the confirmation, and that would make sense. I must say I'm not really up on my training planes, more naval aircraft!


----------



## hawkeye2an (Jun 14, 2010)

While you all were salivating over the Emil, P-39 etc. I found the 4th photo most interesting as I am fascinated with the fact that almost ALL American civilian aircraft of this type were impressed (read: drafted) during the early part of the War. I imagine the same was the case in the UK. Can anybody shed some light on this?

By the way, from the left the aircraft are:
Stinson Reliant SR-9
Cessna Skymaster C-37
Fairchild 24 (civilian Argus)
Stinson 10 
Grumman Goose
the rest are too far away to tell, but are more of the same.


----------



## hawkeye2an (Jun 14, 2010)

Found this relating to several of the pics.

Excerpted from: 
World War II Glider Pilots 
edited by Turner Publishing

The Bureau’s (US Army recruiting) publicity campaign coincided with the beginning of a combined war bond sales and military recruitment drive. The US Treasury Department and The Army Air Corp had planned the drive together. It was to begin in Washington, DC and then go on tour of the country. A military road show called the Air Cavalcade was to be the main attraction of the drive. The Cavalcade boasted the newest American fighters and bombers, a borrowed British Spitfire and a German Messerscmitt 109 fighter that had been captured in North Africa. The new P-39 and P-40 fighters were thought to be the stars of the show. 
At the last minute, the Air Corps decided to add a glider to the road show to capitalize on the national attention the show would draw. The Air Corps scrambled to find a plane to use and came up with a small 2 place Laister-Kaufman, a civilian sailplane. Staff Sergeant William T, Sampson II, a training student at the Elmira Flying School was suddenly pulled from training to fly in the show. 
Thanks to advanced publicity, 50,000 people crowded the observation stands at Washington’s National Airport to watch the Air Cavalcade arrive on June 28, 1942. First the big, powerful warplanes landed and taxied to parking positions along the end of the runway. Then there appeared in the empty sky an Army L-1A pulling the tiny glider piloted by Sergeant Sampson. Sampson cut loose from the L-1A and began a silent, graceful series of turns and banks in it’s descent. Sampson executed a skillful and perfect landing right beside the other planes, much to the delight of the enthusiastic crowd. The spectators made a beeline to Sampson’s glider ignoring the other planes. The Air Corps could not have asked for a better reception of it’s glider program. And it was a reception that was repeated throughout the country during the Cavalcade’s two-month tour.


----------



## seagull61785 (Jul 1, 2010)

hawkeye2an said:


> Found this relating to several of the pics.
> 
> Excerpted from:
> World War II Glider Pilots
> ...



The Cavalcade of the Air featured 4 fighter planes of the 1940's. The bf 109 in your first pic, a P40, a P39 and a Spitfire. I believe there is a small part of rhe Spitfire wing visible in the first photo of the 109 at the left edge. This Spitfire was a Mk Vc coded AA963, and was one of the very first to feature the 'universal' wing armament with the 4 x 20mm Hispano cannon option and no Browning machine guns. AA963 was quite a unique and special Spitfire as it was a presentation model bought by donations from the people of the London suburb of Southgate, who suffered badly in the 1940/41 Blitz. I have been trying to track down what became of AA963 for over 30 years. After the Cavalcade duties were complete she returned to Wright Field for further evaluation and was last tracked down at Lincoln AFB Nebraska in 1943 where she was being used as a non-flying instructional airframe. After Lincoln AFB the trail went dead. Has anyone any clues please? Also I have only a few details of exactly where the Cavalcade travelled during those 2 months in 1942. I have better photos also of the Beaufighter and more of the Spitfire in my collection if anyone is interested. Happy to receive any questions or inquiries about this aircraft too.

Barry (ex warbird pilot) born in Southgate, London, now a resident of Auckland New Zealand.


----------

