# closterman fact or fiction ?



## rochie (Feb 7, 2008)

i've read the big show and enjoyed it but after going through some old threads i noticed a lot of negative comments about pierre closterman.
did he really make up a lot of his war record ?
if so what should his what is his real story anyone know ???
and did other pilots do this sort of thing, i've read that the luftwaffe was very strict in getting verification from other sorces for its pilots "claims".
what was it like on the allies side


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## Torch (Feb 7, 2008)

Good question, I read the Big Show also and I've gotten the same vibes as you...


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## Arsenal VG-33 (Feb 8, 2008)

I see no reason to doubt Clostermann's claims. His book, as with books written by other aces, will always have a measure of dramatization in it, sometime large measures of it. That doesn't make their stories less true somehow. I happen to have my two copies of his book right next to me, "The Big Show" ("Le Grand Cirque") in French and in English. While there may be discrepencies within the actual translation of some words/phrases/terminology, I feel Clostermann pretty much has an solid record. Keep in mind that he didn't always get along very well with his wingman. 

The only thing I can take from Clostermann that wasn't good, is that he often tended to ignore his wingman's safety and throw himself into a digfight alone. However, he wouldn't have been made the only foreign squadron commander within the RAF if he was a compulsive liar. The only reason his claims became the topic of dispute is because during the Falkland War, he made the observation that Argentine pilots were brave pilots as well. Naturally, this didn't fly well in the UK, and he was for a long time the object of derision because of it.

On another note, the last thread on this forum about Pierre Clostermann descended into something of a free-for-all, French-bashing fest. Is this where the "negative vibes" come from? I also find it interesting that aces of the US/Uk/Ger are for some reason above scrutiny. For the record, other forums I've visited have mentioned that only very recently, some historians have called into question the "kills" claimed by Molders, Galland, and Marseilles. Should we look less upon them if it turns out they inflated their claims? I don't think so.


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## rochie (Feb 10, 2008)

i also cant believe clostermann would have gained such a high rank within the R.A.F if he made so many false claims on his after action reports.
and it was because i noticed so many negative comments about pierre clostermann's record that i posed the question


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## Marcel (Feb 10, 2008)

Arsenal VG-33 said:


> However, he wouldn't have been made the only foreign squadron commander within the RAF if he was a compulsive liar.


Correction, he wasn't the only one, Bob van der Stock was for instance a dutch squadron commander.


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## JoeB (Feb 10, 2008)

Arsenal VG-33 said:


> On another note, the last thread on this forum about Pierre Clostermann descended into something of a free-for-all, French-bashing fest. Is this where the "negative vibes" come from? I also find it interesting that aces of the US/Uk/Ger are for some reason above scrutiny. For the record, other forums I've visited have mentioned that only very recently, some historians have called into question the "kills" claimed by Molders, Galland, and Marseilles. Should we look less upon them if it turns out they inflated their claims? I don't think so.


It's virtually a given that WWII pilots actually shot down fewer a/c than they were credited with, because almost all air arms in general did at all times. As has been discussed, there are example of German units in certain periods with almost 100% accurate claims, but it wasn't the rule even for the Luftwaffe, and in some units and periods they were very far from it in fact, and the typical range for all WWII air arms was 25-50% (or higher or lower, I'm *roughly* generalizing).

But, the ratio's between credited victories and actual losses inflicted on the enemy varied a lot between air arms and between periods and theaters for a given air arm, so would presumably vary more still among individuals. And it's often hard to assess individual victories of WWII pilots. Usually there are A credits on the ace being examined's side, of which B are credits to the ace himself and C losses on the other side. A and C include all combats which can't be absolutely distinguished from one another, sometimes a lot of combats with A and C both big numbers. But C is almost always less than A, often a lot less. Some investigators will class all the ace's credits as 'verified' if B is less than C, IOW if the ace alone was credited with fewer planes than the other side lost in total; sometimes even over a whole front on a whole day, which is misleading to the point of nonsense IMO. The fair way would be some kind of prorating, the ace's verified victories would be B*(C/A).

I haven't actually read Clostermann's book. My main problem with it is the broad conclusions some people seem to draw about big picture issues based on Clostermann's small picture first hand accounts. Clostermann flew in a period and theater and air arm, w/ RAF '43-45 North Europe, where official credit accuracy relative to actual German losses was generally pretty good. But again it's often hard to determine that for an indivdual, and even if the credited victories don't check out, it doesn't by any means prove the pilot 'inflated' them, as in on purpose, though surely there were some who did. Also someone might describe kills in a book they weren't officially credited with, but official credit doesn't mean an enemy plane was always really shot down, nor does lack of official credit rule it out.

Marseilles' credits AFAIK correlate reasonably with Allied losses, and aren't so difficult to check because of relatively small scale of many of the combats. For example when he was credited with 17 victories in one day the best estimate AFAIK was somewhat less but not alot less (again would depend whether you credited him with every Allied loss; on a prorated basis it was a few to several less than 17 IIRC). On another forum somebody said that day's claims were grossly exaggerated, but eventually retreated to 'oh that's just what I heard'. You are right, there was many agenda driven analyses of WWII air combat that appear on the web, alongside objective ones, but again the methodology issues make it challenging to conduct and hard to compare analysis of individual pilots scores even without agendas. Better IMO to start with average accuracy of credits for whole air arms in various theaters and periods.

Joe


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## Skywalker (Feb 6, 2009)

Whatever Pierre Closterman's number of confirmed kills, his book is one of the most poetic records in all of air combat. I wept along with Closterman when he landed his Hawker Tempest, Le Grand Charles, for the final time and "laid him down on the grass, like a cut flower."

And I shared his grief when one of his comrades died in his arms, after Closterman had hauled what was left of him out of the burning wreckage of a Tempest which had cartwheeeled during a wheels-up crashlanding attempt; and later felt Pierre's own anxiety when he had to attempt a wheels-up landing of his own the very next day.

I found my first copy of "The Big Show" abandoned in a desk at school in my 8th grade math class, and was entranced by it, and read re-read it until it had to be taped together, a not uncommon fate for many of my military history sci-fi books in those days. 

Later in college, my best friend was perusing my bookshelves and saw its garish red yellow cover with Closterman's Tempest celebrating a victory over a burning FW-190, and he said, "Hey! I read that book years ago in Jr. High. I remember losing it in Mr. Gadd's math class." So I ended up getting him a new Bantam War Books edition to replace it, and another one for me to re-read to spare the old beat-up edition I'd read to pieces.

Skywalker


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## Watanbe (Feb 7, 2009)

Skywalker said:


> Whatever Pierre Closterman's number of confirmed kills, his book is one of the most poetic records in all of air combat. I wept along with Closterman when he landed his Hawker Tempest, Le Grand Charles, for the final time and "laid him down on the grass, like a cut flower."
> 
> And I shared his grief when one of his comrades died in his arms, after Closterman had hauled what was left of him out of the burning wreckage of a Tempest which had cartwheeeled during a wheels-up crashlanding attempt; and later felt Pierre's own anxiety when he had to attempt a wheels-up landing of his own the very next day.
> 
> ...



Thats awesome man! Haven't read it but will definately! I must admit I don't know much at all about Closteman but what I have heard is mainly negative, but I wont judge until I know more! I do know however that I love Hawker Tempest's


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## lesofprimus (Feb 7, 2009)

I put Clostermann's validity in the same catagory as Walther Dahls'... Alot of bullsh!t mixed in with some very skilled and brave facts...

Read the book, 3-4 times, and its a great book, agree with all the views above... However, he lies... 

I remember talking to Adolf Galland as a kid, and seein him snort when asked about Clostermann... If his fellow Ace/Experten, including my Grandfather, have a less than favorable opinion of him, thats good enough for me...


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## Amsel (Feb 7, 2009)

You talked with Galland! How was he to talk to? That would be something else.


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## lesofprimus (Feb 7, 2009)

I talked to many Vets in my time... So has Erich and Bill and Neil and Chris and Chris and David and...................................

Galland was a great guy, always smilin... My Grandfather really liked him....


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## Timppa (Feb 7, 2009)

clostermann
(28 February 1921–22 March 2006)

"Dear Neil I was a little annoyed by Adam Holden's letter, which you published in SAM Vol 22/3 May 2000. On principle I never usually answer letters of this sort, but in view of my Tempest friends from No 3 Squadron, I feel I owe them an answer. First the Falklands War. . I never wrote to an Argentinean newspaper, but sent a letter to a group of Argentinean pilots who were pupils of my son, (then an Armée de l'Air Mirage pilot), at the Mirage Academy in Dijon. I knew them and they even came to my house when they were on leave. When I read the insults printed in the UK tabloid newspaper, the 'SUN', (greasers, tango dancers etc.), I wanted to tell these 'underdogs' that some people admired their courage. It is an admitted fact today by all - (including the US Air Force and the RAF) - that "the courage of your enemy honours you", and it should not be forgotten. Also, being an MP, with political responsibilities I am entitled to my opinions. They had nothing to do with my long-standing friendship and love for the RAF. 

Secondly, I was never married to an 'Argentinean beauty'. I have been married for 53 years to a French girl. 

As to my claims, they never changed. They were painted on my Tempest, (see accompanying photo), (The photograph that Pierre sent with his letter, with him in the cockpit of 'Le Grand CharIes'~, NV724, JF.E of 3 Sqn., circa July 1945, showing the twenty-three black crosses representing his accredited confirmed 'kills', and the nine white outline only crosses for 'probables' and 'ground kills'.) and are substantiated by the following citations and letters. My two DFC citations, by Air Marshal Slessor and AOC 83 Group Sir Harry Broadhurst, are enough for me. 

"DFC 26/8/44 This officer has displayed outstanding courage and devotion to duty throughout his operational career in the course of which he has destroyed at least 11 enemy aircraft and damaged other military objectives". "Bar 28/5/45 since being awarded the DFC this officer has participated in 70 new operational missions during which he has destroyed a further 12 enemy aircraft. Throughout, Lieutenant Clostermann has displayed outstanding courage and ability, and has proved to be a source of inspiration to all". 23 black crosses and 23 confirmed by my DFC citations. I never personally asked for anything else. 

There were I suppose two problems; ONE, I have been in so many Squadrons; Nos 341, 602, 486, 274, 56, and 3, that the forms 540 and 541 'Logs of Claims' were quite spread out. TWO, the French Air Force - as well as the US 8th Fighter Command, considered aircraft 'probables' and destroyed 'on the ground' as victories. This may explain some of the ridiculously inflated claims we found in the press, about me and many American pilots. Not my fault. I tried to rectify often, but to no avail! Finally, the statement about the the DSO. I am a Chevalier of the Legion d'Honneur, which, as a French national, takes precedence over my DFC, and therefore is worn 'in front' of it. It is red with a blue tinge - as is the DSO. 


Pierre Clostermann
Montesquiei des Albères
France"


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## Juha (Feb 7, 2009)

Hello Rochie
first, remember there was Flight Lt P. Clostermann, highly regarded and effective leader and fighter pilot and then there was P. Clostermann , good and very successful aviation writer. Nobody has accused Flight Lt Clostermann of lying. What I remember from the material I have read on 122 Wing, Clostermann did very well and was one of the top pilots of the Wing.

On Clostermann’s books, I read 3 of them some 40 years ago, liked them but IIRC I thought even then that they were a bit too “colourful” to my taste. I liked more on J. Johnson’s “Väistä sininen parvi”, the Finnish translation of “Wing Leader” but that of course is question of taste. IMHO Clostermann’s The Grand Show is better read as a docunovel. He seems to have used a writer’s licence sometimes to put a bit more colour to some of his schemes. But a good read. My favorite aviator's memories is "Kapteeni Lipfertin sotapäiväkirja". Its English translation is "TheWar Diary of Captain Helmut Lipfert" or something like that, plus a couple of Finnish aces memories, those of Juutilainen and Luukkanen, both are translated to English.

Juha


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## antoni (Feb 7, 2009)

Timppa said:


> clostermann
> (28 February 1921–22 March 2006)
> 
> "Dear Neil I was a little annoyed by Adam Holden's letter, which you published in SAM Vol 22/3 May 2000. On principle I never usually answer letters of this sort, but in view of my Tempest friends from No 3 Squadron, I feel I owe them an answer. First the Falklands War. . I never wrote to an Argentinean newspaper, but sent a letter to a group of Argentinean pilots who were pupils of my son, (then an Armée de l'Air Mirage pilot), at the Mirage Academy in Dijon. I knew them and they even came to my house when they were on leave. When I read the insults printed in the UK tabloid newspaper, the 'SUN', (greasers, tango dancers etc.), I wanted to tell these 'underdogs' that some people admired their courage. It is an admitted fact today by all - (including the US Air Force and the RAF) - that "the courage of your enemy honours you", and it should not be forgotten. Also, being an MP, with political responsibilities I am entitled to my opinions. They had nothing to do with my long-standing friendship and love for the RAF.
> ...



In May 2000 the following letter was published in Scale Aircraft Modelling.

Dear Neil,
Whilst I enjoyed your article on converting Ocidental's Spitfire IX kit using the new RonsResin re-shaped nose and propeller etc (SAM VoI22j1), the supplementary information you included on French 'ace' Pierre Clostermann is, I am afraid, totally inaccurate! Firstly, the English translation of his book, 'Le Grande Cirque', is called 'The Big Show' not 'The Big Circus', more importantly, its author would be most surprised to learn that he died in a motoring accident in the 1950s1 In fact, as recently as June 1996, Clostermann was living in St Genis des Fontaines, Montesquieu, France. Only two years previously, he had added further controversy to his reputation when he was seen (by no less a personage than AVM 'Johnnie' Johnson) wearing the ribbon of the DSO at the DDay commerative (sic).) ceremonies at Bayeux, in northern France, despite the fact that he'd never been awarded the medal! And at the start of the Falklands Campaign in 1981, he wrote, in an Argentinian (sic) newspaper, something of a eulogy to the prowess of the nation's fighter pilots, much to the  of his old RAF comrades, who reasoned that his marriage to an Argentinian (sic) beauty had perhaps coloured his thinking!

Historians continue to scrutinize Clostermann's air combat claims, and recent research suggests a total of 11 destroyed; 3 probables; 9 damaged. He seems to have had an unfortunate penchant for claiming aircraft downed by others in his unit if he was merely present at the time, and did not actually fire his guns! His greatly exaggerated claims have brought him no respect from the cogniscenti (sic); none of his Free French comrades support his claims, even though they are less openly critical of him than his non-Gallic counterparts. Of course none of this detracts from Clostermann's obvious bravery and competence as a fighter pilot of course, and I too was a huge fan of his book. Incidentally, I learned much of the foregoing when in correspondence with other well known WW2 fighter pilots as part of the research I was undertaking for a book on the subject, and it was sobering to learn that much of what's written in its pages may probably be not wholly true.

Adam G. Holden

The next month the editor had the embarrassment of having to publish Clostermann's reply.


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## drgondog (Feb 7, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> I talked to many Vets in my time... So has Erich and Bill and Neil and Chris and Chris and David and...................................
> 
> Galland was a great guy, always smilin... My Grandfather really liked him....



Galland was a typical fighter pilot, as Rall and Olds, etc. twinkle in the eyes, loved the ladies, great sense of humor, supremely confident.. it is a rare community.

Yeager and Olds and Sublett and about 20 othe American Fighter Aces went to Russia in the late 90's to meet with a bunch of WWII and Korean War aces - said the same thing about their Russian counterparts.


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## drgondog (Feb 7, 2009)

Timppa said:


> clostermann
> (28 February 1921–22 March 2006)
> 
> "Dear Neil I was a little annoyed by Adam Holden's letter, which you published in SAM Vol 22/3 May 2000. On principle I never usually answer letters of this sort, but in view of my Tempest friends from No 3 Squadron, I feel I owe them an answer. First the Falklands War. . I never wrote to an Argentinean newspaper, but sent a letter to a group of Argentinean pilots who were pupils of my son, (then an Armée de l'Air Mirage pilot), at the Mirage Academy in Dijon. I knew them and they even came to my house when they were on leave. When I read the insults printed in the UK tabloid newspaper, the 'SUN', (greasers, tango dancers etc.), I wanted to tell these 'underdogs' that some people admired their courage. It is an admitted fact today by all - (including the US Air Force and the RAF) - that "the courage of your enemy honours you", and it should not be forgotten. Also, being an MP, with political responsibilities I am entitled to my opinions. They had nothing to do with my long-standing friendship and love for the RAF.
> ...



Closterman was wrong about 'probables' being credited as victories - at least fo 8th AF - the 8th DID credit ground scores but those were later revoked by the USAF as other commands did not do the same.


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## Arsenal VG-33 (Feb 7, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> *However, he lies... *



Please show your evidence. 



lesofprimus said:


> I remember talking to Adolf Galland as a kid, and seein him snort when asked about Clostermann... If his fellow Ace/Experten, including my Grandfather, have a less than favorable opinion of him, thats good enough for me...



Do you have any proof of this other than a man's "snort"? 

Of course, if Clostermann were German or American, I suppose his record would then be beyond reproach. What a crock....


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## drgondog (Feb 7, 2009)

Arsenal VG-33 said:


> Of course, if Clostermann were German or American, I suppose his record would then be beyond reproach. What a crock....



Reputations among the fighter pilot community are fragile. The fighter pilot community is brutal on 'claimers' - of any nationality, and particularly harsh on those that left their wingmen to fend for themselves while pursuing scores..

I have no idea whatsoever whether Closterman was in that category.. Gabby Gabreski caused more than a few heads to shake for losing wingmen in Korea, as an example. To my knowledge he was not French.


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## Arsenal VG-33 (Feb 7, 2009)

drgondog said:


> Galland was a typical fighter pilot, as Rall and Olds, etc. twinkle in the eyes, loved the ladies, great sense of humor, supremely confident.. it is a rare community.
> 
> Yeager and Olds and Sublett and about 20 othe American Fighter Aces went to Russia in the late 90's to meet with a bunch of WWII and Korean War aces - said the same thing about their Russian counterparts.



Precisely! This is what I presonally believe to be the case. All of these pilots are arrogant and braggarts to a certain degree, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they were all liars to a certain extent, in fact I'm convinced it is the case. Yet P. Clostermann somehow becomes everyone's puching bag. It doesn't make any sense at all.


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## drgondog (Feb 7, 2009)

Arsenal VG-33 said:


> Precisely! This is what I presonally believe to be the case. All of these pilots are arrogant and braggarts to a certain degree, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they were all liars to a certain extent, in fact I'm convinced it is the case. Yet P. Clostermann somehow becomes everyone's puching bag. It doesn't make any sense at all.



No, they are not arrogant or braggarts. Most are self deprecating modest individuals. There is a difference between confidence and 'bragging'

As to 'all being liars'? where in the world would you draw an opinion like that?

Officers caught lying, screwing other guys wives, or cheating, were bounced out of the service (at least in US service) faster than you wrote that pathetic post. The US military takes "I will not lie, cheat or steal - or tolerate those who do' VERY SERIOUSLY.


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## Arsenal VG-33 (Feb 7, 2009)

drgondog said:


> Reputations among the fighter pilot community are fragile. The fighter pilot community is brutal on 'claimers' - of any nationality, and particularly harsh on those that left their wingmen to fend for themselves while pursuing scores..



Agreed, and very well put.



drgondog said:


> I have no idea whatsoever whether Closterman was in that category.. Gabby Gabreski caused more than a few heads to shake for losing wingmen in Korea, as an example. To my knowledge he was not French.



I had no idea about Gabreski losing his wignman. But even if he was reprimanded for it, he never recieved the same scrutiny and derision that Clostermann did. Even Boyington, inspite of his heavy boozing and condescening behaviour towards others, is still well liked and admired. Are his claims questioned? Its a double standard.


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## drgondog (Feb 7, 2009)

Arsenal VG-33 said:


> Agreed, and very well put.
> 
> 
> 
> I had no idea about Gabreski losing his wignman. But even if he was reprimanded for it, he never recieved the same scrutiny and derision that Clostermann did. Even Boyington, inspite of his heavy boozing and condescening behaviour towards others, is still well liked and admired. Are his claims questioned? Its a double standard.



Hell yes Boyington's claims were questioned - particularly his AVG claims while in China. As to being well liked and admired - maybe about as much as Yeager.. meaning 50/50 because of personality.

No, Gabreski was not reprimanded as far as I know. Stuff happens in air combat - but when you lose one, your peers have a tendency to ask 'how did that happen?".. implication 'was the score more important than you breaking off the chase to save your wingman.'

Gabreski was a brave, skilled and aggressive fighter pilot that also was a self deprecating and modest guy.. but came under some negative comments from his peer group.


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## Arsenal VG-33 (Feb 7, 2009)

drgondog said:


> Officers caught lying, screwing other guys wives, or cheating, were bounced out of the service (at least in US service) faster than you wrote that pathetic post. The US military takes "I will not lie, cheat or steal - or tolerate those who do' VERY SERIOUSLY.




Perhaps the US military of today has toughter standards than that of 65+ years ago? Are you saying there were no exceptions, whatsoever? What I said was a generalization, don't take it so literally.


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## Arsenal VG-33 (Feb 7, 2009)

drgondog said:


> Hell yes Boyington's claims were questioned - particularly his AVG claims while in China. As to being well liked and admired - maybe about as much as Yeager.. meaning 50/50 because of personality.



Interesting you should say that, because I've always greatly admired Yeager. But then I think you've touched on the crux of the problem - in the end it's all a matter of personal perception as to whether or not we take those men's claims seriously or not, in which case it's all conjecture and a matter of one's own personal opinion. A little "ace-worship" on top clouds any objectivity left.


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## drgondog (Feb 7, 2009)

Arsenal VG-33 said:


> Perhaps the US military of today has toughter standards than that of 65+ years ago? Are you saying there were no exceptions, whatsoever? What I said was a generalization, don't take it so literally.



I could be persuaded that exceptions were made but offhand could not cite an example. As an example Don Blakeslee sent one of the top 8th AF aces, Gentile, home when Gentile buzzed Debden and cracked up his Mustang. I know of one pilot (shall remain nameless) who was sent home and bounced from USAF by my father when he was discovered committing adultery with a fellow officer's wife in Japan during Korean War. 

I do not know of any 'claimers' dismissed or reprimanded - just held in contempt by his peers. USAAF, USN and LW certainly had several examples of fellow officer treatment/cold shoulder when 'enough is enough' of claims with no evidence.

I am not saying Closterman fits either profile - I simply don't know or have an opinion.

Summary -

Lying was NOT tolerated. Period. Court Martial offense

Adultery was NOT tolerated - during WWII or afterward. Court Martial and Dismissal.

Midnight requisitioning for critical items from another unit or service WAS tolerated most of the time.


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## Njaco (Feb 10, 2009)

Arsenal,you may be referring to other forums but I can tell you that here there is no difference about which country an ace is from. I have read threads that questioned Hartmann's scores, Marseilles scores and don't even bring up Yeager! There have been a few choice words for him and others. Maybe you've only come across threads about Clostermann or one or two about others but most threads are duplicates - check the archive for old threads from '05, '06, etc. and you will see what I mean.

Nobody has a silver spoon here - they all get whupped on!


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## Marcel (Feb 11, 2009)

But Closterman usually gets the worst. I think this is the 3rd or 4th thread about this.


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## Njaco (Feb 11, 2009)

That could be. I've seen some pretty good rippin' on Yeager.


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## FalkeEins (Feb 11, 2009)

... I have Chris Ehrengardt's book on French fighter pilots ('Pilotes de chasse français 39-45') open in front of me. Ehrengardt deals only in 'officially' confirmed victories. He slaughters Clostermann. I could quote from it quite easily, but Clostermann took legal action against the publisher had the book banned in France


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## Amsel (Feb 11, 2009)

Just to play the devils advocate here; many aces had many more kills then their actual confirmed tally. I know in the LW the standards for counting a kill were tough and many pilots followed down kills and plotted the crash site just to have the kill not counted due to no officers being present to confirm. Is it possible to have a third more actual kills then confirmed?


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## Timppa (Feb 11, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> ... However, he lies...



From an earlier thread..


lesofprimus said:


> Clostermann was an as*hole and a fraud, fu*k him....



You are supposed to be a moderator ?


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 11, 2009)

Timppa said:


> You are supposed to be a moderator ?



*And on thie site moderators have, and will continue to voice their opinions.*


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## Maximowitz (Feb 12, 2009)

FLYBOYJ said:


> *And on thie site moderators have, and will continue to voice their opinions.*




He's also dead therefore not in a position to sue anyone for defamation of character.


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## FalkeEins (Feb 12, 2009)

..problem is he has done in the past -he put Ehrengardt out of business - ..and I wouldn't mind betting that his family monitor threads like this one..


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## Maximowitz (Feb 12, 2009)

FalkeEins said:


> ..problem is he has done in the past -he put Ehrengardt out of business - ..and I wouldn't mind betting that his family monitor threads like this one..




Good point Neil. Neither would I come to think of it... I know of a couple of forums that have got into a lot of trouble from that sort of thing..


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## lesofprimus (Feb 12, 2009)

And as for me and my opinion, its just that... Arsenal and Timppa, u can both blow me....


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## Arsenal VG-33 (Feb 12, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> And as for me and my opinion, its just that... Arsenal and Timppa, u can both blow me....



Sorry Les, but my door doesn't swing that way, but if you're happy then thats great. Moving on....

Reactions: Like Like:
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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 12, 2009)

Maximowitz said:


> He's also dead therefore not in a position to sue anyone for defamation of character.



And even if alive he's a "public person" and can and will receive positive and negative opinions with no way to counter, at least the laws in country where this forum is operated from!


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 12, 2009)

FalkeEins said:


> ..problem is he has done in the past -he put Ehrengardt out of business - ..and I wouldn't mind betting that his family monitor threads like this one..



See my last post - personally I could care less.


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## Thunder (Mar 13, 2009)

I personaly think that the main problem for Closterman is to be French, as simpe l as that, had he been Polish he wouldn't be looking so controversial today for several reasons.

Just to remind you guys that the translation from french to english gives a totaly different colour to the book (i realy prefer the original version).

To finish i have to cast doubts about the claims of him being a liar, he told the story as it was even so he expressed himslef his own way.

Weither some people doesn't like him is another story altogether and doesn't take away his personal achievement.

Galland was a Nazi, my family a victim of Nazism, i still can reconise a great pilot when i see one and read his book too.

Regards.


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## lesofprimus (Mar 13, 2009)

And I still think he made up events and claimed kills that either didnt happen or was credited with some of his squadron mates victories....

And as for that crap about him bein French, who gives a sh!t about what his nationality was, he's a liar....


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## Njaco (Mar 13, 2009)

> Galland was a Nazi, my family a victim of Nazism, i still can reconise a great pilot when i see one and read his book too.



I don't want to disparge your family and what happened but as far as I know, Galland wasn't a Nazi. He was a German pilot/ soldier fighting for his country that was under a Nazi government.


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## Thunder (Mar 29, 2009)

"lesofprimus 
And I still think he made up events and claimed kills that either didnt happen or was credited with some of his squadron mates victories"....

Sure... 

So your specialist opinion is valid and that of other (real) withenesses is not...

Whatever your problem is, i will stick to the writings of those who were there and for your info, Clostermann and Galland were once friends, might well explain the snoring...


"lesofprimus 
And as for that crap about him bein French, who gives a sh!t about what his nationality was, he's a liar"....

Say you, who resort to quoting the reaction of A Galland as an "evidence", at least i remember which side Clostermann fought for...

Not being able to read french is what the problem is from our PoV, even in modern warfare today, when in theater of Operation US reporters canot spell the name of our assets it leads to false records even in NATO official files...

So in 1943 i guess the records weren't that accurate either.


"Njaco 
I don't want to disparge your family and what happened but as far as I know, Galland wasn't a Nazi. He was a German pilot/ soldier fighting for his country that was under a Nazi government".

Being a Nazi mean being a member of the Nazional Zocialist party, which Adolf Galland was even before the invasion of France, it doesn't make a criminal of him.

But what more does one have to do to be a Nazi then?

The Hawker Tempest Page

You guys will be pleased to know that despite of all your loving attention, Clostermann is recorded as the TOP Tempest scorer.

He never claimed 33 victories either but 23 confirmed and 10 probable, dont forget that he was French, fighting for the FFL and that as such responded to the French gouvernement and homologation rules too.


Aerial victories of Pierre Clostermann were confirmed by the British military authorities. However, the UK registration system, among other things based on an analysis of combat films, was known for its rigor, unlike the U.S. system which relied heavily on statements by the pilot alone. For 23 victories certified by the RAF, the French authorities said the aircraft destroyed on the ground and "probable" according to the rules in force in France. In these conditions, without calling into question the systems of French and British approval, the figure of 33 wins is the only approved that can be formally incorporated..
Accueil
attachment:/9/victoires.html

Reason are explained in this website and also painted on the side of the "Grand Charles".

I think i will leave the matter as it is. Regards, Thunder.


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## Erich (Mar 29, 2009)

Bonjour Thunder

you may find this of interest as Pierre thought his wingman was shot down and his own Tempest shot to pieces the last week of the war in the ETO- May of 45 by ground based 2cm weapons when in fact he and his wingman were chased by 2 Me 262's of 10./NJG 11 and holed by 3cm Minengeschoss, Pierre is quite lucky he even made it to crash land his a/c

E ~


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## Thunder (Mar 29, 2009)

Erich

One of the records is wrong, it doesn't make the pilots liars...

This is the point i am making, i do not think that these guys need to lie appart if even in some case to get where they want to be flying, who realy care?

He admit himself to have been shot down (at least) two times and to his own words he wasn't flying his (usual) aircraft and wasn't "modest" in one occasion.

12th May 43 and 21rst April 45.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDGzT-0zSZA_

He said he was brought back in 35 sec to absolute modesty and total panic by a solo German pilot (vs 8 fighters) who demonstrated a 1-2-3 in a matter of seconds.

This guy doesn't need to lie, he can admit he was afraid and have been stupid in some occasions, btw he saw the German aircraft once he crash-landed, thought he was about to be straffed but didn't mention ME 262(s).


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## Erich (Mar 29, 2009)

I am not making any point of any direction Thunder who is right or wrong just wanted you to take note of a correction in one of Pierre's books to place the truth and not incorrect data. am co-authoring a book on the above mentioned Me 262 unit in the future. we have interviewed both jet pilots for this late-war account for our book.

Erich


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## Thunder (Mar 29, 2009)

Erich

Perhaps the comments of Clostermann are not describing the same incident. 

I do not think your pilots shot the same guys, if they had been shot by ME 262 he would have known because he mentioned the German pilot in several occasions is this video.

First he saw the German aircraft passing over him because his engine shut-of and that of the German aircraft was still on, then he saw it again after crash landing....

I am neither trying to be confrontational nor implying you do or take side...


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## Erich (Mar 29, 2009)

the incident occurred during the last week of the war Thunder, Pierre and his wingman never saw the jets as they zoomed from above and down on their tails, they were chasing Spitfires and Tempest shooting up civilian traffic in northern Germany, the night fighter unit was ordered to follow and shoot down any Allied A/c doing this type of operation with Pierre and his squadron doing the same. the two jets saw the Tempests from a distance and performed a perfect bounce and the wingman of Pierre was vaporized and Pierre almost died the same way. in one of his volumes he expresses the idea that defense was quick to act and he assumed incorrectly that it was ground based 2cm Flak. My co-author and I sent Pierre's biographer all the information which matched perfectly with most of the squadron that Pierre's account of the action except how he was almost downed. Pierre and his wingman never knew what hit them the attack was so sudden and swift, the two jet pilots banked off but had been watched by another spitfire squadron which then chased the jets as they were running of fuel, one jet escaped and our friend with a badly shot up 262 crash-landed the aircraft and jumped clear of the burning wreckage


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## Thunder (Mar 29, 2009)

Nice recit infortunatly i'm curious to know how you come up with this when there is no record of Clostermann being shot between April and 8th May 1945...

He himself says clearly he was shot twice in aerial combat and give the dates he was wounded by flack but in Marsh 45...

You guys got your wires crossed big time.


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## Erich (Mar 29, 2009)

sorry you are incorrect, we had long chatted with his personal biographer about the mission in May which Pierre when alive agreed to the findings. Pierre crashlanded with damage he does not account for being shot down only his wingman. He made it very clear his a/c was hit by 2cm rounds from Flak, so he thought


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## Njaco (Mar 29, 2009)

What was Galland's Nazi party number?


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## lesofprimus (Mar 29, 2009)

I guess Pierre is never wrong Erich and any data aquired to prove him wrong is incorrect....

Atleast to our frog-squeezing noob it is......


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## Erich (Mar 29, 2009)

Les we may be talking of two seperate incidents. mine is extremely well documented from Clostermann's own mouth through his bio man. and placed in one of Pierre's volumes not sure which one as I do not own any of his personal works. his own 2 works that I know of have been re-hashed and re-written with the same mis-interpretations of actual events but some have been truly erased from the work(s) to be replaced by other stories. No matter to me what I have is an eye opener and yes I can see our friends denial of the true events as they have never been truly written down. we have pages of this single operation as told by the 2 German pilots and it correlates perfectly with the event of the two Tempests on that terrible days outing


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## Thunder (Mar 29, 2009)

Denial, LOL... 

So correct me if i'm wrong (Not that you're stoping yourself).

Your sources are always right, honnest, bits doesn't get erased or mystaking but those of other aren't so accurate isn't it?

Give us a break and come back when your sources doesn't countredict official records.

For your info RAF always record a crash landing due to adverse fire as being shot.

You give loads of recits and little evidences so much for your guys credibility, i don't think you have the exclusivity of honnesty...

Nice to see natural alliances forms the way they are though...

"Pierre crashlanded with damage he does not account for being shot down only his wingman". 

WRONG.

Every Tempest pilot feared belly landing with it, this would not go un-noticed.

"He made it very clear his a/c was hit by 2cm rounds from Flak, so he thought"

NO mention of being Clostermann HIT by ANY adverse fire more precisely, when it happens it is recorded as such expecially if it leads to a crash landing; conclusions, i dont think you have been talking with Clostermann nor any of his pals.

Germany didnt have 20mm caliber flak BTW...

Something else, RAF fighters on straffing mission vs civilian road traffic. 

WOW!

I didn't know bomber command took over Spitfire and Tempest Squadrons.

Erich; Your story is good Sci-Fi. Denke.

"Njaco 
What was Galland's Nazi party number?"

You want his birth certificate too i presume?


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## pbfoot (Mar 29, 2009)

Thunder said:


> Denial, LOL...
> 
> So correct me if i'm wrong.
> 
> ...


I think Erich has proved his bona fide but you haven't I think your out of your league .


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## lesofprimus (Mar 29, 2009)

And with that dipsh!t post, ur gone... Not asingle Frenchman can come here and deal with the dressing down of their countrymen.... Every one of u are the same.......


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## GrauGeist (Mar 29, 2009)

Au revoir sac de douche...

Here's a summary of Closterman's *illustrious* career...



> 293 offensive missions
> 97 attack missions against ground targets
> 42 defensive/protection missions
> 
> ...



Now I see ol' Closterman ended up with quite the impressive (especially-when-told-to-your-drinking-buddies) talley, but if I'm not mistaken, our recently departed "friend" insists that Closterman didn't do ground attack?

Oh well...I wonder if that clown even knew that Closterman was born a Brazilian...


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## Erich (Mar 29, 2009)

think a serious prblem of mis-interpreting my statements.

Germany did not have 2cm Flak my gosh you poor non studied sod !

no matter you're not worth repeating delicate and unknown info to, I knew this was going to happen, why some have made Clostermann a god is beyond me.

did I say anything about bomber command ? I hae the 2nd TAF source info besides.........really think the guy did not have a grasp of what happened the last months, the US strafed civilians as well sorry but it is true my familie in the Pflaz felt the brunt of that during op Thunderclap


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## Becca (Mar 30, 2009)

When will they learn..does no one teach their children manners, anymore?? Gonna have to get Les a new meatball stamp.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 30, 2009)

The sad thing is that I do not think that anyone here said the Closterman was a bad pilot. He was a great pilot and a great ace as well.

People are only disputing his claims. This happens quite a bit for aces from all countries. Everyone over claimed...


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 30, 2009)

Its funny though - no problem disputing Hartman's claims!


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## Marcel (Mar 30, 2009)

Hmm, yeah, lets not forget this guy was from France, Closterman probably was one of his hero's. It's always difficult if someone attacks your hero. Sadly he couldn't step back and swallow the facts


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## Airframes (Mar 30, 2009)

I'm afraid any sympathy for the chap's weak arguments went out of the window when I read his statement that Germany did not have 20mm Flak! The Flak Gw.38 and it's 'descendants' was/were, as most know,THE most common anti-aircraft weapon of the German armed forces, being vehicle mounted, ground deployed, on trains, ships, boats - basically, everywhere, in single, double and quad barrelled versions. Ah, well!


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## BombTaxi (Mar 30, 2009)

Am I right in understanding, from that argument, that Clostermann himself came to agree that he was attacked by jets, not flak? The poor chap (Thunder, I mean) obviously couldn't admit what Clostermann did - that he was wrong!!!


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## HoHun (Mar 30, 2009)

Hi Adler,

>The sad thing is that I do not think that anyone here said the Closterman was a bad pilot. He was a great pilot and a great ace as well.

>People are only disputing his claims. This happens quite a bit for aces from all countries. Everyone over claimed...

Inspired by the Clostermann discussions here, I just re-read "Le Grand Cirque" in the German translation by Jaime Lauer, and I wonder if he somehow invited others to look at his claims very closely by describing the pre-invasion discussion of the surviving strength of the Luftwaffe, including the British insistence to reduce both American bomber and American fighter claims by a certain factor.

"Finally, an agreement is reached to use as base figure one third of the American estimate for [kills by] bombers, and one half of the [kills by] fighters." (p. 81 of "Die große Arena")

I think today there is no doubt that the USAAF bomber gunners heavily overclaimed, but I also believe that the suggestion that USAAF overclaimed (and over-confirmed) by a factor of two while the RAF did not would likely cause a lively debate here, to say the least. (Not that Clostermann specifically states that, but the way I read it, it seems to be implied. He certainly points out that the exaggerated kill figures were willingly accepted by the USAAF to justify the heavy losses their bombers were taking.)

If there is really more attention devoted to the accuracy of Clostermann's claims than to that of other fighter pilots, I think it might be some people's psychological reaction to his own discussion of the topic of the accuracy of claims.

Just an observation ... I might be wrong entirely.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


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## BombTaxi (Mar 30, 2009)

Interesting point Henning. I think the USAAF overclaiming was also a result of the sheer number of gunners firing at each fighter destroyed. Even the best intelligence officers would probably have been confused by literally scores of accounts for each German fighter shot down


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 30, 2009)

I believe that at one point the RAF told the AAF that they were overclaiming bomber kills by a factor of 6.

As far as Closterman - I think it was more his attitude and the way he's come across to people that has brought on a lot of this.


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## BombTaxi (Mar 30, 2009)

The RAF overclaimed horrendously during the BoB, as did the LW. Both sides sometimes claimed to have shot down more aircraft than were destroyed - but I think this was deliberate bodycount propaganda rather than serious claims about machines destroyed.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 30, 2009)

BombTaxi said:


> Interesting point Henning. I think the USAAF overclaiming was also a result of the sheer number of gunners firing at each fighter destroyed. Even the best intelligence officers would probably have been confused by literally scores of accounts for each German fighter shot down



I agree. There could easily be 2 to 4 gunners claiming the same aircraft.


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## HoHun (Mar 30, 2009)

Hi Flyboyj,

>I believe that at one point the RAF told the AAF that they were overclaiming bomber kills by a factor of 6.

Hm, I think there was actually a certain point in the war when the (confirmed) USAAF bomber gunner claims dropped steeply by a factor like that to a much lower (and more realistical) level. I think I have seen this in the US Strategic Bombing Survey statistics, so it seems the USAAF did address the problem quite decisevely. One interpretation is that it indicates that the overconfirming had not been intentional.

>As far as Closterman - I think it was more his attitude and the way he's come across to people that has brought on a lot of this.

Do you think that some of this might be a result of his French literary style, which is almost the opposite of the British low key, ironic, stereotypical "I was lucky to walk away after pranging my kite, but poor Mac had gone for a Burton" style?

I have also read "The Mouchotte Diaries", and they seem to have some similarities to Clostermann's style, at least that's what I thought. Mouchotte was the Free French fighter leader who saw Clostermann's potential, and who drowned in the channel after becoming separated from everyone, including his wingman Clostermann. From what I read on the internet, this left Clostermann with a deep feeling of guilt and the desire to prove that Mouchotte's death was not his fault. There is some similarity to the story of Bader going down after his wingman "Cocky" Dundas had lost him, except that Bader survived ...

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


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## HoHun (Mar 30, 2009)

Hi Adler,

>I agree. There could easily be 2 to 4 gunners claiming the same aircraft.

Absolutely, but I think this is the obvious part (today).

I suspect it was Clostermann's statement that the US fighter claims were inflated (implied: more than those of the RAF) too that made him some enemies and caused his claims to be checked with more than routine scrutiny.

(I think we all know that overclaiming is inherent and almost inevitable in air combat, but from what I've read, it took the aviation historians quite a while to figure that out. Not that you read much about historians' errors of the past ... hmmm! 

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 30, 2009)

HoHun said:


> Hm, I think there was actually a certain point in the war when the (confirmed) USAAF bomber gunner claims dropped steeply by a factor like that to a much lower (and more realistical) level. I think I have seen this in the US Strategic Bombing Survey statistics, so it seems the USAAF did address the problem quite decisevely. One interpretation is that it indicates that the overconfirming had not been intentional.


Agree




HoHun said:


> Do you think that some of this might be a result of his French literary style, which is almost the opposite of the British low key, ironic, stereotypical "I was lucky to walk away after pranging my kite, but poor Mac had gone for a Burton" style?


Also agree.


HoHun said:


> I have also read "The Mouchotte Diaries", and they seem to have some similarities to Clostermann's style, at least that's what I thought. Mouchotte was the Free French fighter leader who saw Clostermann's potential, and who drowned in the channel after becoming separated from everyone, including his wingman Clostermann. From what I read on the internet, this left Clostermann with a deep feeling of guilt and the desire to prove that Mouchotte's death was not his fault. There is some similarity to the story of Bader going down after his wingman "Cocky" Dundas had lost him, except that Bader survived ...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Henning (HoHun)



Interesting enough!

In some ways I think Closterman became the "Rene FoncK" of WW2.


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## rochie (Mar 30, 2009)

i've just read Al deere's book and he tells of Martell bollocking sgt clostermann for not staying with him to cover his six in the middle of a scrap !
so maybe he did feel a little guilty about Mouchette !!!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 30, 2009)

HoHun said:


> Hi Adler,
> 
> >I agree. There could easily be 2 to 4 gunners claiming the same aircraft.
> 
> ...



I can agree with that. It certainly is a possibility.


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