# Waiting to be found



## MONDARIZ (Feb 26, 2008)

Every year a few warbirds resurface after years of "storage". Some have been tucked away in the corner of obscure airports, others are found on farms, or hidden in forests/jungles.

I would like this thread to be a collection of such aircraft. Not the ones that have been found and restored, but those who are still waiting for a kind soul (with a lot of money) to restore them to glory.

It would be nice, if posters could include location and if possible also Google earth links. 

I think we could list rumours as well. If they are posted with links and seem credible (somewhat documented by articles). Most might have heard about the "forgotten Yak factory somewhere in Siberia", but who has links to it, or anything else, that might aid its credibility?


Every airport have a squadron of non-flying hulks and some are warbirds who deserves a better fate.

Like this TBM Avenger (Blaine Airfield MN USA):


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## A4K (Feb 26, 2008)

Great idea Mondariz!

I'm not in a position to be able to restore them myself (though it is a long time dream of mine), but I think a record should be kept for those who can.


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 26, 2008)

I'm in the same position (economical rather than technical, as im an aircraft mechanic)  

I have come across many pictures like the one above. Some might have been purchased with restoration intend, but have been abandoned along the way.

Maybe by showing the pictures, we can get someone started on a restoration project.

Right after the war alot of people bought alot of military equipment. Either for scrapping/recycling, or simply because they could and had designs on using them for something aviation related (like firefighting, or barnstorming).

Although i hope this thread will focus on current abandoned "projects", i simply HAVE to inculde this pic - just to show what you could find right after the war.

Note the Stuka in the background:


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## Njaco (Feb 26, 2008)

Looks like the bottom half of the engine is missing?

Mondariz, I don't have any pics but I've always wondered why if there is a known site why it isn't investigated. Shortly after the invasion of Norway a flight of Ju 52s had to land on a frozen lake (I believe near Tronheim) and sunk as the ice melted. Always wondered.

But many surplus were given to tech schools and I'm always hearing about something popping up in a warehouse.


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## Negative Creep (Feb 26, 2008)

After the war I'm suprised more entrepreneurs didn't buy up stocks of old planes and put them into storage. They'd be worth a fortune now


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 26, 2008)

I think people were pretty tired of the war in 1945. The idea of stockpiling aircraft might not have looked as appealing as we see it. Also, since the war production had eaten almost all resources, scrapping and reselling was better business.

There were private collectors too. Many private museums started their life at a cheap post-war sale, but most were sold to be scrapped (it was part of the deal, as states don't like to arm citizens too heavily).

I have a pdf (a bill of sale from 1946) with a list of HUNDREDS of aircraft, sold to a private company for $55.426,68

Including P-51, P-47, P-40, P-39, B-24, B-25, B-26 and PBY. 

Drop me a PM of you would like a copy.

I'm not sure why such sites are not investigated, but maybe there are a limited number of people who can fund the recovery/restoration. They do actually recover a few each year.

A sunken JU-52 seems like a perfect bird to investigate. Chances are its kinda intact (not crashed), so maybe you should find some more information. I'm in Denmark so its only a short drive away 

Regarding the Stuka: Thats what a Stuka looks like, here is another pic.


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## ToughOmbre (Feb 26, 2008)

Negative Creep said:


> After the war I'm suprised more entrepreneurs didn't buy up stocks of old planes and put them into storage. They'd be worth a fortune now



Paul Mantz, the famous Hollywood stunt pilot supposedly put in a bid of $55,000 for 475 surplus aircraft at Walnut Ridge, Arkansas...there were no other takers. According to Jeff Ethell's "Wings of War" book, Mantz flew as many of them away as he could, then scrapped the rest (probably ended up as pots and pans in our parent's kitchen cabinets). 

The postwar mindset to save the great machines of WW II just didn't exist. Too bad  

Picture below is Kingman, AZ circa late 1946.

TO


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## comiso90 (Feb 26, 2008)

This is a sad photo...

PT Boat burning November December 1945, Samar, Philippines. Too bad there arent more around.

I suppose keeping wooden boats around for 60 years would be a lot of work.



http://att.my.yahoo.com/


.


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## SoD Stitch (Feb 26, 2008)

Yeah, after the War the last thing on most people's mind was collecting surplus military aircraft; at that time (1945-50), there were literally thousands thousands of surplus WWII aircraft laying around all over the US (and, for that matter, Europe too). I don't think it ever occured to anybody (at first) to try preserve any of the hundreds hundreds of aircraft rotting on airfields across the US. Like the saying goes, you don't miss it until it's gone. The only thing most of the old warbirds were good for after the War was racing; warbird prices didn't really start to take off until the late '70's/early '80's. My family restored a couple of ex-Argentine T-6's back in the '80's, and sold both of them for more than $100,000 each.


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## ccheese (Feb 26, 2008)

ToughHombre said:


> Picture below is Kingman, AZ circa late 1946.



Isn't that a sight for sore eyes..... wall to wall B-17's, and only a handfull
around today.

Charles


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## Evil_Merlin (Feb 26, 2008)

There is a wonderful Lim-2 sitting outside the airport right outside my office window where I also fly out of a lot. Its been abandoned by its owner and is just begging to be restored.


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 26, 2008)

I have the Paul Mantz bill of sale (well a pdf copy of it) and he did really buy hundreds of aircraft for £55.000.


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 26, 2008)

Did a bit of Google and found a pricelist from Kingman Army Airfield 1946:

* BT-13 $450
* P-38 $1,250
* AT-6 $1,500
* A-26 $2,000
* P-51 $3,500
* B-25 $8,250
* B-17 $13,750
* B-24 $13,750
* B-32 $32,500

A quote from the site:
"Estimates of the number of excess surplus airplanes ran as high as 150,000. Consideration was given to storing a substantial number of these. By the summer of 1945, at least 30 sales-storage depots and 23 sales centers were in operation. In November 1945, it was estimated a total of 117,210 aircraft would be transferred as surplus.

Between 1945 and June 1947, the RFC, War Assets Corporation and the War Assets Administration (disposal function of the RFC was transferred to WAC on January 15, 1946, and to the WAA in March of 1946) processed approximately 61,600 WWII aircraft, of which 34,700 were sold for flyable purposes and 26,900, primarily combat types, were sold for scrapping.

It is estimated that approximately 10,000 warbirds were flown to Kingman in 1945 and 1946 for storage and sale. Some sources report the number to be over 11,000. It is reported that at least 100 of the 118 B-32 Heavy Bombers built were flown there, many straight from the assembly line.

Most of the transports and trainers could be used in the civilian fleet, and trainers were sold for $875 to $2,400. The fighters and bombers were of little peacetime use, although some were sold. "


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## Njaco (Feb 26, 2008)

A p-38 for $1250! OMG! I was born too late!


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 26, 2008)

Just remember they did this to German planes too.

In Denmark more than 1100 Luftwaffe aircraft were destroyed after the war. Some in RAF airshows.

Among the airshow "victims" were two Blohm Voss 138 seaplanes.


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## pbfoot (Feb 26, 2008)

The group I help out with is in the process of recovering an Avenger it should be in fair shape


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## Negative Creep (Feb 26, 2008)

Njaco said:


> A p-38 for $1250! OMG! I was born too late!





How much would $1250 equate to today?


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## kool kitty89 (Feb 26, 2008)

Probably ~$15,000-20,000 depending on how you make the comparison. Also direct conversions may not be valid as a (nice) new car in 1946 could easily be under $1,000. 
Imageollar value chart.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Njaco (Feb 26, 2008)

I took that into account, Negative. And if Kool Kitty is correct, its still a steal. Amazing!


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## Graeme (Feb 27, 2008)

We burnt our Mosquitoes and melted our Lincolns.


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 27, 2008)

It kinda bugs me, that people have to travel to far off places like Siberia, to retrive a WWII wreck, when many fine aircraft are rotting away in the states and europe.

I have been scolded for mentioning specific aircraft, where the owner see their "effort" as historic preservation. These aircraft are rotting away in gardens  

The truth is, that i have seen collections of WWII aircraft stored in what can only be termed a "museum" by the owner, to anyone else its a scrapyard.

And we are not just talking about a few T-6's, but truely rare warbirds (think Twin Mustang).

I know about people who have tried to buy some of these aircraft, only to find that the owner wont sell, as he is working on them. Leaving historic aircraft in a pile IS NOT PRESERVATION!

In the mean time, recovery work takes place in Sibiria, or even from the waters of the pacific.

Here is a Tempest (unrelated to my rant above, but still in need of TLC):
(Borrowed from another forum, sorry to Ian Wilkinson for using it without expressed permission)


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 27, 2008)

Here is another:


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## Screaming Eagle (Feb 27, 2008)

I totally agree! It just makes me sad the evntual fate of these airplanes.


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 27, 2008)

What really gets me, is that when those aircraft are finally sold (the owner dies), they are no better than those recovered from Sibiria and other places.

People can do what they want with their private property, restore it, let it rot, but its just a shame when the latter happens.

I knew a guy who had his house full of vintage motorcycles. None of them were whole, but he had quite a few rare bikes. When he died, the family sold the wole "collection" to a scrapyard, in order to clear the house for sale. I also knew people who were looking to buy some of the collection, but that never happened. I'm pretty sure that also happens with warbird relics.


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## A4K (Feb 27, 2008)

We have the same in NZ, they are still finding Mosquito, Hudson, and Oxford remains (to name a few) on private farms, the owners buying them for wheels and firewood (   ). when I was last in NZ ('96) I saw a decrepit Vampire freshly recovered from a farm - it's cockpit was stripped of anything movable, and full of chicken sh-t, as for the fueslage and wings, Phillip Treweek also photographed it, and you can see it on Kiwi Aircraft Images

There's also a very reclusive man (no names) who has a Mozzie, Oxford, and many other RNZAF aircraft in original service condition, ie, bought, locked up in a garage, and left to gather dust for his private viewing pleasure. He very rarely lets people see them, and even then begrudgingly. I think there are a few museums waiting for him to kick the bucket, but I don't know in whose hands they'll be when that happens.


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 27, 2008)

I have heard about NZ warbirds popping up on farms. I was happy to see the Oxford finally got some TLC. For a small country, they are doing great work for preservation.

There are (there must be) many around the world, just waiting their turn.

Here is one from China:


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 27, 2008)

Bird dogs in Thailand:


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 27, 2008)

I know I'm rambling on here, but I just know there are warbirds out there, just waiting......

The Afghan air force flew Avro Anson untill 1972, could be a few around somewhere. They also flew Hawker Hart, Hawker Hind and Junkers G 24.

I would be very surpriced if a few didn't show up soon.


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## A4K (Feb 27, 2008)

was that a Sturmovik, Mondariz?!


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 27, 2008)

I think its a Sturmovic, or a Chinese copy of one.


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## Krabat42 (Feb 27, 2008)

It's a Il-10, the late ww2 and korean war sturmovik:

Ilyushin Il-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## A4K (Feb 27, 2008)

Danke Krabat! Ich soll's gewüsst habe, dass Du, Graeme oder Thunderbolt es gekennt wurde!


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## A4K (Feb 27, 2008)

...gekAnnt...


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## Njaco (Feb 27, 2008)

That B-25 is here in the states, Ohio I think. The guy who took that pic had a thread here about it a few months ago.


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## DBII (Feb 27, 2008)

The people that have these birds wasting away in their "muesums" have no hope of ever restoring them. They either don't want anyone else to have them or they want to much money for them. 

DBII


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## Krabat42 (Feb 27, 2008)

> Danke Krabat! Ich soll's gewüsst habe, dass Du, Graeme oder Thunderbolt es gekennt wurde!



It's flyable in Il-2 Sturmovik 1946. Yesterday, p47thunderbolt crashed one into a tower, I was his gunner for this (very short) mission.


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## Bucksnort101 (Feb 27, 2008)

I've driven past that Avenger Hulk at the Blaine airport several times. There used to be a Museum named Polar Aviation up there as well, had an A-26 sitting behind the hanger that as the story goes flew in for an airshow, had engine troubles and was parked. Sat for many years. They also had a F-82 in the hanger that was being restored. Polar closed several years ago, never knew what happened to the dozen or so aircraft they had on hand?


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## Njaco (Feb 27, 2008)

I remember as a kid there was playground near me that had a Sabre jet from the Korean war to play on. A couple years ago I went back and it was gone. Nobody knew where it went. Shame.


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## Konigstiger205 (Feb 27, 2008)

Njaco said:


> I remember as a kid there was playground near me that had a Sabre jet from the Korean war to play on. A couple years ago I went back and it was gone. Nobody knew where it went. Shame.



Wish I had a warbird to play on when I was a kid...its a sad thing to see a warbird rotting in some guys garden...


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 27, 2008)

MONDARIZ said:


> Bird dogs in Thailand:



I'VE BEEN THERE!!!!

That's at the Thai Army Airbase at Lopari - about 60 miles north of Bangkok. I was there in 2001. A major on the base told me that they were still US property and "I could have them." The problem was getting them out of the country and getting State Department approval. They really weren't in bad shape and I know there were a few restorable airframes.


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 27, 2008)

There is quite a bit of money to be made on those.

You bring them and I'll fix them 8) 

Keep one each and sell the rest.


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 27, 2008)

MONDARIZ said:


> There is quite a bit of money to be made on those.
> 
> You bring them and I'll fix them 8)
> 
> Keep one each and sell the rest.



Hey - I spoke to people about trying to bring them back and said the same thing - a lot of talk, no action.

I'm an aircraft mechanic by trade - I could have one of those flying in no time - that's all I wanted out of the deal - one flyable aircraft.

Any idea where you found that photo? I was at that base for about a week surveying UH-1s for a contract my company was bidding on. There were also T-41s and Maules there as well.


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## Njaco (Feb 27, 2008)

Kingtiger, I'll trade you the warbirds for those panzers you have lying around!


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 27, 2008)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Hey - I spoke to people about trying to bring them back and said the same thing - a lot of talk, no action.
> 
> I'm an aircraft mechanic by trade - I could have one of those flying in no time - that's all I wanted out of the deal - one flyable aircraft.
> 
> Any idea where you found that photo? I was at that base for about a week surveying UH-1s for a contract my company was bidding on. There were also T-41s and Maules there as well.



I'm an aircraft mechanic too 8) 

Here is where i found the pics:

http://www.talkingproud.us/HistoryBirddog12.html

Been trying to get them on Google earth.

According to this site

‘TANGO SQUADRON’

They are on Saraburi Aero Park N14 26 29 E101 00 54

But i see none there.


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 27, 2008)

Yep - that's the place and great site! I have some very poor photos somewhere, I'll try to post them.


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## SoD Stitch (Feb 27, 2008)

Njaco said:


> That B-25 is here in the states, Ohio I think. The guy who took that pic had a thread here about it a few months ago.



Yeah, the B-25 is from the famous "Soplata Collection" in rural Ohio, outside of Cleveland.

Go here for the old thread:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-pictures/old-b-25-sitting-amish-country-ohio-10302.html

And here for a Smithsonian Air Space article on it:

The Soplata Airplane Sanctuary


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## Konigstiger205 (Feb 27, 2008)

Njaco said:


> Kingtiger, I'll trade you the warbirds for those panzers you have lying around!



Sure...how many do you want?...


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## kool kitty89 (Feb 27, 2008)

What about what happened with the Northrop YB-35's and YB-49's, amazing aircraft (albeit operational failures) and all scrapped (forcibly iirc) by the USAF.

Just sad, though at least Planes of Fame saved the N9M, and it's still flying!!!

But having a YB-35 or YB-49 would have be amazing to see... =(

An interesting note: The YB-49 and B-2, both built by Northrop, have the same wingspan, down to the exact inch, 172.0 ft (52.40 m).


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## SoD Stitch (Feb 27, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> What about what happened with the Northrop YB-35's and YB-49's, amazing aircraft (albeit operational failures) and all scrapped (forcibly iirc) by the USAF.
> 
> Just sad, though at least Planes of Fame saved the N9M, and it's still flying!!!
> 
> ...



I did not know that!

However, I'll bet there's a huge performance difference (well, that's a "no-brainer", isn't it?); I'm guessing the B-2 will easily carry twice the payload (if not more) at probably four times the distance . . . . . and it's stealthy! However, I'll bet they both fly at around the same speed (subsonic; ~500 mph).


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 28, 2008)

They just found a BT-13 in Costa Rica (although a wreck).

CANOE -- CNEWS - World: Missing WWII plane discovered in Costa Rica

This article is in Spanish, but there is a picture of the dig.

El Observador Aeronáutico


The planes are out there


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## A4K (Feb 28, 2008)

Njaco, where are those Panzers ?


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## Njaco (Feb 28, 2008)

from over in the WW2 General section....

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/panzer-graveyard-bulgaria-12026.html


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## Heinz (Feb 28, 2008)

Wow the pictures early on are amazing, all those planes.

I know a local aero museum needs help with restoration projects in particular a Catalina battle veteran. It was house boat! 

Australian National Aviation Museum - Catalina

The hull was ballasted with concrete which is currently being cleaned out gradually. Note the wheel house thats in the nose. 


I intend to joing this museum to lend a hand once I get a chance to zip down there.


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## A4K (Feb 28, 2008)

Thanks Nyaco! Does anyone know if they plan to restore them?


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 28, 2008)

A lot of work on that Cat, but great someone is doing it.

Pretty cool houseboat too. At least somebody looked after it a bit.

Will it fly again, or is it for static use?

I did minor structural work on a Cat once and would jump at the chance to help. Unfortunatly I'm in Denmark......

Good luck with it, i will make sure to browse the site now and again, to see the progress.

BTW I will post some more Kingman air field pics soon.


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 28, 2008)

This is Walnut ridge war asset storage.






Not sure where this it.


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## A4K (Feb 28, 2008)

I've only helped with one restoration, drilling out the rivets in the fuel tanks of a TBF-1c Avenger in NZ, but it would be great to be a part of a Cat restoration alright. She's a beautiful aircraft!


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## A4K (Feb 28, 2008)

Those are IMPRESSIVE Mondariz !!!! I guess not too many survived...


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 28, 2008)

Nearly all of them became pots and pans. There were aircraft flewn straight from the assembly line to the storage area, its a pain to think about it.

Some were sold to post-war airlines, or handed over to allied countries as air force help. Those airline/air force planes have mostly been tracked down and are either restored (museum or flying), or scrapped at a later date.

I posted earlier about Paul Mantz buying 475 mixed warbirds for $55.000.
As far as i know, he kept some as movie props and scrapped the rest.

The worst thing is, that some storage places (not just the states) only actually scrapped their planes in the late 60's and early 70's - just as the warbird scene really got started.

Right now I'm looking for info on an Indonesian site (used by USAF), where they only scrapped their planes in the 80's (maybe late 70's).

There are also still at least two B-29 hulks at China lake, but they are pretty messed up. I will try to find China lake pics from the 60's, back then they had loads of B-29's in fair condition.

Even with all the scrapped aircrafts, there are still enough for those who has the money to keep them flying. The world actually don't really need 170.000 more warbirds  

I hope that some are still out there, on farms, in forests, in barns. Hidden away and waiting their turn.


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 28, 2008)

China Lake 1968.


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 28, 2008)

Here is the info on Morotai:

"After the war, the island was one of the largest 5th Air Force boneyard in the Pacific. A smelting operation was established, and USAAF planes from all over the region were flown here to be scrapped. Despite scrapping the island was crammed full of aircraft and vehicles until 1988 when it was cleared in a final scrap drive. The scrap was taken to Krakatau Steel Mill in Java"

I will look for recent pics.


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## kool kitty89 (Feb 28, 2008)

The YP-49 and 35 were still amazing a/c though, considdering they were built with WWII technology. Hell, the program ended before the start of the Korean War!

Bombload and range for the YB 49 were decent with nearly 10,000 mi max and a 490+ mph top speed. The bombload may have been good but the craft couldn't carry the bulky first generation H-bombs due to their girth. (somhing only the B-36 could do at this time, though the B-52 could when it came on the scene)

And contrary to what many may think the stabillity of these a/c was not their main failing (the N9M and YB-35's actually having realitively few problems though the faster YB-49 had some) the lack of H-bomb capacity and the structural problems encountered in maneuvering at high speed with the YB-49 (causing the fatal acedents) were the biggest shortcomings. In fact fly-by-wire may not have been a necessity as many think, though she would have been a handfull to maneuver. And the YB-35 was simply too slow (though much faster than the B-36 w/out jet boost)


Almost complete YB-49's being lined up for destruction


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## Heinz (Feb 28, 2008)

MONDARIZ said:


> A lot of work on that Cat, but great someone is doing it.
> 
> Pretty cool houseboat too. At least somebody looked after it a bit.
> 
> ...




Static display is the plan from what I can tell. Unfortunately the museum really needs a government grant so the whole collection can be put inside. There was a hangar donated many years ago which houses a Wirraway and Beautfighter and parts of a Beaufort among other things. 

THe museum has also recently taken in an Avro Lincoln but that is a LONG way away from being started. 


cheers Heinz


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 29, 2008)

Heniz, why don't you go and help them?

I have recently joined a group like them and I'm waiting for the work to start. We should get hangar space in april (BIG ex Air Force hangars), so the planes can be moved from their storage and made ready for display.


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## Heinz (Feb 29, 2008)

Like I said I intend to. However right now Im just getting my own life set up but within the next 2 months I'll be putting my name down for help.


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## MONDARIZ (Feb 29, 2008)

Glad to hear it Heinz.

Next time im down under, I will stop by the Cat and see what been happening.


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## MONDARIZ (Mar 7, 2008)

Just came across this picture. Trying to find more info, but the pic is NOT THAT OLD.


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## Haztoys (Mar 7, 2008)

Thats the planes from BoB movie there in Texas..


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## A4K (Mar 7, 2008)

Well, they're Hispano Ha.112's (Bf 109G-5 airframes exported without motors to Spain, the original german designation being 'Bf 109J' -which is why that mark dosen't appear under Luftwaffe variants). So these are either stored in Spain somewhere, or someone's been buying them up and collecting them - I know CASA 111s (Spanish He 111s) have been auctioned in England in the past, so that's another possibility.


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## A4K (Mar 7, 2008)

Clashed with Haztoys- that solves that one then - where in Texas mate?


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## Haztoys (Mar 7, 2008)

A4K said:


> Clashed with Haztoys- that solves that one then - where in Texas mate?



Some were on here is info on it ...It is "said" that he was a pilot in the movie and got the plane from the movie theres other he has too...I could be wrong ...


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## MONDARIZ (Mar 7, 2008)

I knew what planes they were, the info i was looking for is WHY AND WHERE?

and I found it:

A Warbirds Resource Group Site :: View topic - What's in the middle of nowhere? (Big Spring, TX)

Thats just amazing!


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## wilbur1 (Mar 7, 2008)

HOLY CRAP !!!!! that guy has stuff that ive.....dont even know how to say it but oh my gosh i could spend days in just one of his hangers, a brand new mercedes in the crate wow


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## MONDARIZ (Mar 7, 2008)

Its just GREAT that there are crazy people like that out there.

If you read the WIX post, it says he once had 15 Mustangs and 13 Buchons.
He could have made a nice little war game for himself.

As I understand it, everything is for sale, but he wants to sell ALL, not a plane here and a plane there.

BTW he not only have a huge collection of Merlins, he has all the tools too, and parts, and......

Simply amazing


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## Njaco (Mar 7, 2008)

must be nice to have money.


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## timshatz (Mar 7, 2008)

That was a 601! He make on of those Buchons back into a 109E.


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## MONDARIZ (Mar 7, 2008)

Better to sell a few Buchons and buy a proper Me109 project.

As far as I know, the lack of proper engines have halted a few Me109 projects.


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## pbfoot (Mar 7, 2008)

MONDARIZ said:


> Better to sell a few Buchons and buy a proper Me109 project.
> 
> As far as I know, the lack of proper engines have halted a few Me109 projects.


from personal expieriance its tough to get 109 parts , many things are virtually unavailable


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## ghilt (Mar 8, 2008)

Most people recognise Kingman, AZ. ....The most aircraft at any disposal site was at Walnut Ridge, Arkansas....There were a lot of other sites across the States....Missouri, Kansas, Ohio, Fl....Ok...Stilwater, where Paul Mantz purchased at that time , the worlds second largest airforce....He did good there...made his money back, and then some, by draining all the fuel from the planes and reselling it...After picking out the ones he wanted, he sold the rest to salvage dealers...Altus, OK....where they found the Memphis Belle, and Art Laceys famous B-17...it's in Milwaulke, Or. the gas station bomber

The agriculture industry saved a lot of the smaller aircraft ...mostly the trainers..BT-13...PT-17 etc...The ag pilots bought them for their engines, cheaper than overhauling them..plus throw on a larger engine...better payload..more earning potential..

When I grew up in the early 60s, there wasn't a podunk airport around the mid-west that didn't have at least one old trainer lurking in the weeds..a bunch of us kids karted off an old Stearman fuselage, still on its gear to provide us years of being the P-51 ace, or the bomber crew...Wish I had it now!

The air tanker industry is what kept the big iron around...there wouldn't be near as many B-17s around if it weren't for them..and my bird wouldn't either!


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## ghilt (Mar 8, 2008)

Holy Cow! I didn't realise that there were 6 pages to this thread when I posted the previous.....Now I have read thru them!

I bought my PV-2 last year...this bird was the bastard of a group of 4 Harpoons auctioned off in 2005 in Wyoming...

I was called by Bill Duff, who had bought my PV at the auction. He bought it for one purpose..to make money...It was Jan. 07 when he told me that he was getting ready to sell this PV to a guy in California, that was going to cut the wings off, and turn her into a hotdog stand...I just couldn't see that happening to her, so I paid the price...

Now comes the reason why most of these larger aircraft are usually scrapped on the spot...It's a monumental task to move them without having a money tree....

I've cought a lot of flak about buying her...what are you going to do with it? Are you going to fly it? How are you going to afford to fly it? Why don't you give it up to somebody that can afford it? Why don't you donate it? How in the world are you going to move it?

Well, ya know, I get a little sick of some of these butt heads..(including my wife sometimes). No, I don't have a money tree...but I'll try my best to get her moved and restored to static condition...at my place...at my leasure...My best reply is that it seems to me that nobody wanted her, But I do. So now I climb off my soap box......

I am glad I bought her...call her "Harpoon Annie"......I realise that I am just the custodian of her..and will try my best to ensure that she long outlives me. Since stepping off the cliff, I have met the most incredible group of people in the last year, and for what it's worth, the whole ordeal the past year has been worth every penny!

Anyway, I have a grandson that thinks Papa's airplane is cool...and that too makes it worthwhile....My attitude is, that all comments, suggestions, and help is welcome...All are welcome to come visit Annie, spend a little quiet time sitting in her cockpit....well, maybe not that quiet...I'll be making the engine noise...


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## MONDARIZ (Mar 8, 2008)

Hi Ghilt,

Great work saving the PV-2, "Harpoon Annie" looks happy.

Although its a daunting task to care for an old aircraft (without the money three, or some organisation behind you), thats the way a lot of aircraft have been preserved through the years - by people who care.

Its a lot easier to see what you can do, now that you have her. Maybe you can't provide for a "return to flight" restoration, but that does not mean, that you can't keep it from deteriorating, and thats a big part of aircraft presevation.

There are books around, which are dealing with aircraft presevation on all levels. I'm not sure how much you know about it, but since you say, that you have met a lot of people, I'm sure you have got some pointers.

For long term ground storage, its best to get her of ground (on jacks), but that might not be very economical. There are also various treatments, that you can do to stop further deterioration. If you havn't yet, you should look into it soon.

Now that "Harpoon Annie" is safe, you can just wait for some change in life, that will enable you to see her taxi, and maybe one day she will fly.

I actually started this thread for just that reason. To discuss planes that needed to be found by people like you.

I would love to see more pictures and hear a bit more about her.

All the best

MONDARIZ


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## Marcel (Mar 9, 2008)

Ghilt, good work mate. If only I lived in the US I would like to see it.


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## pbfoot (Mar 9, 2008)

There a great number of wrecks to be found in the north of Canada and Alaska , in Goose bay there were about 200 crash sites within 80miles including such things as B17's 24's 36's here is a sight that shows some of them
Abandoned Plane Wrecks of the North


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## Pittanker (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi all I am new to this site, But I am in the process of building a JU-87 from scratch. I can tell you first hand that those birds do exist out there. I went to an avaiation school auction and found an L-17 Navion. It was in exact militray configuration, served with the USAF in Korea, NY and ended up at Westpoint. Price I paid $500 for the complete bird. Dont just hope!!!!! DO IT


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## MONDARIZ (Mar 10, 2008)

Building a JU-87 from scratch, thats a mighty project. Hope you have a few friends to help you.

I would say a ball-park figure is 150.000 man hours (thats about 17 years non-stop work).

Do you have any pictures of it?

I would love to see the project. I'm not big into replicas, but its great some people are. Like the Me-262 they are building now.


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## MONDARIZ (Mar 10, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> There a great number of wrecks to be found in the north of Canada and Alaska , in Goose bay there were about 200 crash sites within 80miles including such things as B17's 24's 36's here is a sight that shows some of them
> Abandoned Plane Wrecks of the North



Yes, thats a great site.

But if its C-47, C-54, or C-46 you are looking for, there are plenty sitting around airports. I have been using Google Earth to peek at airports around the world, and there are a surprising number of those birds still flying. Others are just waiting for the scrapper on the outskirts of airfields.

Try any central american airport.


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## Heinz (Mar 10, 2008)

Wow good luck with projects guys!


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## A4K (Mar 10, 2008)

Ghilt and Pittanker! All the best for your projects guys!
For anyone who tells you you're mad, you'll find two warbird nuts who'll be grateful for your work and patience, not to mention the future generations who will be able to see something so special, instead of just a rusting hulk.

Hat's off to ya's for your courage and dedication


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## Njaco (Mar 26, 2008)

Heres one for Charles. Just found this interesting site.

Side Scan Sonar Systems - Marine Sonic Technology, Ltd.


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## Messy1 (Mar 26, 2008)

The Soplata article is great! Wish more people had the foresight to save many more of these old birds!


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## A4K (Mar 27, 2008)

Great site Nyaco! what do you reckon the odds are of recovering thet Privateer?


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## timshatz (Mar 27, 2008)

Odds are not good on the Privateer. It's very odd but the US Navy still claims any aircraft that have crashed, ditched or otherwise been abandoned, as Navy Property. So, if you do pull one up, it is only a matter of time before somebody from the Dept of the Navy shows up and claims it as theirs. Has lead to some pretty nasty court cases.

The Air Force, on the other hand, has no claim on any of it's wrecks after the site has been sanatized for human remains and weapons.


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## MONDARIZ (Mar 27, 2008)

The US air force lost their records in a fire in 1961 and have accepted, that they have little possibility of claiming aircraft from before that year (they are technically abandoned because ownership can't be fully established). 

The US navy on the other hand, have all their records. AFIK the navy have no authority to "abandon" material that belong to the federal government. That means that even if an aircraft was "stricken" from the records during the war, its technically not abandoned by the navy, as they legally can't make that call.

Thus any aircraft that ever flew in the navy, is still considered navy property (even if it has been lost for 60 years, and the navy have made no attempt to find, or recover, it), and its something they have (and will again) taken to court - and won!

Navy Shipwrecks and Aircraft Losses

Legally they are also entitled to decline recovery, even if its normal maritime practice to salvage/recover vessles in distress (such as an aircraft under water). That means that if you ask for recovery permission, it will be declined, and if you simply just recover it (without asking), the navy will take possession of the aircraft.

I have no idea, why the navy insists on this, other that they technically can't give away federal property. The federal government don't even care anymore, but the navy does.

Here is a famouse case:

International Aircraft Recovery v. United States (11th Cir. 2000)


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## A4K (Mar 28, 2008)

I can't believe there are no remaining TBD-1's above sea-level! You'd think it would be in the Navy's interest to preserve it's history., I'm sure if it was a Royal Navy aircraft, it'd have been pulled up and restored years ago!


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## DOUGRD (Mar 28, 2008)

Has anyone ever documented all the aircraft sitting in the English Channel after the end of WW2? I have always wondered about this. How many times have you read about aircraft ditching or crashing in the Channel? I'll bet there's quite a few.


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## timshatz (Mar 28, 2008)

Probably hundreds of them dougrd, maybe even thousands. Think that it was a major theatre of war for 5 full years and you have every mark of every aircraft used in full front line operation out there. Spitfires, Hurricanes, Me-109s, Me-110s, FW-190s, to say nothing of the bombers, fighters, transports, miscellaneous, ect. US, UK, Axis, everybody who came with an air force left something in the channel. 

Hell, Glenn Miller is somewhere under that body of water.


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## DOUGRD (Mar 29, 2008)

timshatz said:


> Probably hundreds of them dougrd, maybe even thousands. Think that it was a major theatre of war for 5 full years and you have every mark of every aircraft used in full front line operation out there. Spitfires, Hurricanes, Me-109s, Me-110s, FW-190s, to say nothing of the bombers, fighters, transports, miscellaneous, ect. US, UK, Axis, everybody who came with an air force left something in the channel.
> Hell, Glenn Miller is somewhere under that body of water.



It's funny you mentioned Glenn Miller because when I first started working for "Webers Aero Repair" here in Alexandria, MN. 2 1/2 years ago I got in on the restoration of a Norseman which is the type aircraft Glenn Miller was flying to the continent in.


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## MONDARIZ (Mar 29, 2008)

The English Channel and north sea (along the Dutch, German, Danish, Norwegian and the English coast) still produce "new" wrecks every year.

The surge in recreational diving and the growing interest in aviation archeology (using side scan sonar and other equipment now in a affordable price range), has helped locating many missing wrecks.

Unfortunatly many have been mangled by fishing trawls, or simply deteriorated due to corrosion and strong currents. Saltwater is not a great media for storing aircraft.

It would be a great idea to collect those wrecks in a database, but many diving clubs (and wreck hunter teams) keep their finds pretty private, so it would be hard to get the information. Also, most saltwater wrecks are somewhat beyond restoration.

What I personally would find interesting, is a database of wrecks located in European freshwater lakes. There might not be as many as in the sea, but at least they could be in better condition. 

Around here (Denmark) we had a He-111 ditching in a big lake, staying afloat long enough for the crew to escape, then sinking. I don't know if anybody has tried to locate it (or even if the Germans recovered it, as they normally would - but there are suggestions that they didn't). I would love a weekend with a side scan sonar on that lake 

Anyway, a good place to find wreck information, is diving websites, or even just email your local diving club.

Should we try to post what we can find (with pictures)?


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## wilbur1 (Mar 29, 2008)

Great idea, someone posted a site here on another thread that was in the pto that had a ton of pics of japanese ships and stuff gotta remember where its at


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## MONDARIZ (Mar 30, 2008)

Here is a start on the Saltwater wreck collection.

B17- Bomber 


Douglas TBD-1 that the Navy refuse to be salvaged


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## Njaco (Mar 30, 2008)

and another 2 sites about wrecks in the ETO.

Getting a Plane Wreck JU-52 out of the water - AOL Video

Aircraft Crash Sites at Sea


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## MONDARIZ (Mar 30, 2008)

Seems to me, that they were lucky that JU-52 didn't break. Can't really trust structure after 60 years in saltwater.


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## Catch22 (Mar 30, 2008)

I don't have any pics of it, but at the Air Museum here they're restoring a Lockheed Ventura. We also have a Mossie (from 418 ), a Sabre, Vampire, DC-3, and a bunch of other planes.


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## pbfoot (Mar 30, 2008)

I know some guys that are doing a TBM Avenger from lake Erie it landed on the ice and fell through with little damage , fresh water no corrosion a little current and the Zebra mussels(thanks Europe) will fall off


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## MONDARIZ (Mar 31, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> I know some guys that are doing a TBM Avenger from lake Erie it landed on the ice and fell through with little damage , fresh water no corrosion a little current and the Zebra mussels(thanks Europe) will fall off



How are they getting along with the navy regarding the salvage (or is it a Canadian TBM)?

Please see if you can find a link, or something else, I would like to know more about that TBM.


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## albatross (Jan 29, 2010)

FLYBOYJ said:


> I'VE BEEN THERE!!!!
> 
> That's at the Thai Army Airbase at Lopari - about 60 miles north of Bangkok. I was there in 2001. A major on the base told me that they were still US property and "I could have them." The problem was getting them out of the country and getting State Department approval. They really weren't in bad shape and I know there were a few restorable airframes.



Hi - I'm new to this forum, but I have just seen your post about the O-1 bird dogs at Lopari/Saraburi Aeropark. I have tried to contact the owner to see about purchasing one of the planes myself to bring back to the UK. Were you successful in the end with trying to get hold of any? Seems a shame to leave them standing out there....not really respectful. 

Do you have the contact details for the owner?


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## herman1rg (Feb 8, 2013)

Any more to add?


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## glennasher (Feb 8, 2013)

I think they are still storing aircraft at Kingman AZ, although no warbirds. I saw scads of DHL and Flying Tiger Airway freight aircraft there about two years ago. Many more than a normal big city air hub would have parked around it, I presume the climate is good for static storage. I'm not too familiar with "modern jet freight aircraft" but I think most were DC-8s or 707s. 

Kingman just isn't big enough to justify an air hub.


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## Maxrobot1 (Feb 10, 2013)

I recall that Challenge publications magazine "Air Classics" ran a feature for several years in the late 70's asking readers to submit photos of warbirds sitting around old airports or whatever. I do recall the stir created when one reader sent in photos of a DeHavilland Mosquito in a tiny fenced-in lot in Mexico city!
I do think that this feature resulted in some saved warbirds.


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## daveT (Feb 11, 2013)

Back to the original statement. Aircraft sitting around waiting to be restored, NOT underwater, in a jungle or a otherwise inaccessible. 
War veteran C-53D siting in a yard in Petal Mississippi at the closed Hamilton Machine Museum.


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## daveT (Feb 11, 2013)

F9F-2 123517 Currently displayed in an auto junkyard at Quartzite, AZ


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## Njaco (Feb 11, 2013)

Thats just not right....................


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## daveT (Feb 12, 2013)

Njaco said:


> Thats just not right....................


Its alright that someone tried to save them from the scrapper...There is still hope for restoration.


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## mdb4360 (Sep 3, 2013)

So that's what happened to this old tanker...I helped take her apart back in 2005 for shipment to MN. The gentleman who took it does incredible work....hope he gets around to it someday.


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## vikingBerserker (Sep 3, 2013)

Very cool, and welcome aboard!


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