# Gunman kills 21 on Virginia Tech campus



## Lucky13 (Apr 16, 2007)

By SUE LINDSEY, Associated Press Writer 
8 minutes ago



BLACKSBURG, Va. - A gunman opened fire in a dorm and classroom at Virginia Tech on Monday, killing 21 people in the deadliest campus shooting rampage in U.S. history. The gunman was killed, bringing to death toll to 22, but it was unclear if he was shot by police or took his own life. 

"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," said Virginia Tech president Charles Steger. "The university is shocked and indeed horrified."

The name of the gunman was not immediately released, and investigators offered no motive for the attack. It was not immediately known if the gunman was a student.

FBI spokesman Richard Kolko in Washington said there was no immediate evidence to suggest it was a terrorist attack, "but all avenues will be explored."

The bloodbath took place at opposite sides of the 2,600-acre campus, beginning at about 7:15 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston, a coed dormitory that houses 895 people, and continuing about two hours later at Norris Hall, an engineering building, authorities said.

Police said they were still investigating the shooting at the dorm — and the campus was under lockdown, with students to stay indoors and away from the windows — when authorities got word of gunfire at the classroom building.

Some of the dead were students. One student was killed in the dorm, and the others were killed in the classroom, Virginia Tech Police Chief W.R. Flinchum.

Up until Monday, the deadliest campus shooting in U.S. history was a rampage that took place in 1966 at the University of Texas at Austin, where Charles Whitman climbed the clock tower and opened fire with a rifle from the 28th-floor observation deck. He killed 16 people before he was shot to death by police. In the Columbine High bloodbath near Littleton, Colo., in 1999, two teenagers killed 12 fellow students and a teacher before taking their own lives.

The deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history was in Killen, Texas, in 1991, when George Hennard drove his pickup into a Luby's Cafeteria and shot 23 people to death, then himself.

Founded in 1872, Virginia Tech is nestled in the Blue Ridge Mountains of southwestern Virginia, about 160 miles west of Richmond. With more than 25,000 full-time students, it has the state's largest full-time student population. The school is best known for its engineering school and its powerhouse football team.

The rampage took place on a brisk spring day, with snow flurries swirling around the campus, which is is centered around the Drill Field, a grassy field where military cadets — who now represent a fraction of the student body — once practiced. The dorm and the classroom building are on opposites sides of the Drill Field.

A gasp could be heard at a campus news conference when the police chief said at least 20 people had been killed. Previously, only one person was thought to have been killed.

Investigators from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives began marking and recovering the large number of shell casings and will trace the weapon used, according to an ATF official who spoke on condition of anonymity because local authorities are leading the investigation.

A White House spokesman said President Bush was horrified by the rampage and offered his prayers to the victims and the people of Virginia.

"The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed," spokeswoman Dana Perino said

After the shootings, all entrances to the campus were closed, and classes were canceled through Tuesday. The university set up a meeting place for families to reunite with their children at the Inn at Virginia Tech. It also made counselors available and planned a convocation for Tuesday at the basketball arena.

After the shootings, students were told to stay inside away from the windows.

"There's just a lot of commotion. It's hard to tell exactly what's going on," said Jason Anthony Smith, 19, who lives in the dorm where shooting took place. 

Aimee Kanode, a freshman from Martinsville, said the shooting happened on the fourth floor of West Ambler Johnston dormitory, one floor above her room. Kanode's resident assistant knocked on her door about 8 a.m. to notify students to stay put. 

"They had us under lockdown," Kanode said. "They temporarily lifted the lockdown, the gunman shot again." 

"We're all locked in our dorms surfing the Internet trying to figure out what's going on," Kanode said. 

Madison Van Duyne, a student who was interviewed by telephone on CNN, said: "We are all in lockdown. Most of the students are sitting on the floors away from the windows just trying to be as safe as possible." 

Police said there had been bomb threats on campus over the past two weeks by authorities but said they have not determined a link to the shootings. 

It was second time in less than a year that the campus was closed because of a shooting. 

Last August, the opening day of classes was canceled and the campus closed when an escaped jail inmate allegedly killed a hospital guard off campus and fled to the Tech area. A sheriff's deputy involved in the manhunt was killed on a trail just off campus. The accused gunman, William Morva, faces capital murder charges. 

___ 

Associated Press writer Matt Apuzzo in Washington contributed to this story.


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## lesofprimus (Apr 16, 2007)

Jesus Christ...


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## Matt308 (Apr 16, 2007)

Here come the anti-gunners...

Hold on to your nuts.


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## mkloby (Apr 17, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> Here come the anti-gunners...
> 
> Hold on to your nuts.



Because criminals can't possibly procure a firearm through illicit means


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## Screaming Eagle (Apr 17, 2007)

I was watching CNN again today, the death toll reached 33. Not a good thing.


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## FalkeEins (Apr 17, 2007)

mkloby said:


> Because criminals can't possibly procure a firearm through illicit means



..these people are usually disaffected psycotic former students with a grudge...and of course gun control would make it a bit harder than being able to buy an assault rifle over the counter no questions asked..

..mind boggling ...elsewhere in the free world we just sit here and wonder at the stupidity of it all...


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 17, 2007)

FalkeEins said:


> and of course gun control would make it a bit harder than being able to buy an assault rifle over the counter no questions asked....


*WRONG!!!!!!*

One thing Europeans (And other folks) don't understand is that most of the gun violence committed in the US is done so with *illegally purchased or acquired guns. * Assault rifles are not the choice weapon of a criminal in this country as many of them are are bulky and hard to conceal and many of them cannot be bought over the counter in this country as many of them are banned, some by individual states, another myth bought by then rest of the world when US gun laws are scrutinized. 

*The massacre committed yesterday was done with handguns. Whether this nut purchased these guns legally is another story.*

BTW Virginia Tech had regulations about firearms on campus - Students and faculty members are forbidden to bring firearms in the dorms and in the classrooms - that regulation was a big help yesterday. 

The highest gun crime rate in the US is in Washington DC, where the most restrictive gun laws in the nation are. The lowest is in Arizona, with the most permissive gun laws. A direct correlation, maybe, maybe not. In the 1800s most males went armed, and many females. There were still murders, some multiple. The abundance of, or lack of, armed individuals is not a deterrent to one obsessed with this type of action.

For several years screwdrivers have been used for violent attacks more often than knives. Should we restrict or outlaw them? What about base ball bats? There were murders long before firearms, it goes with our species. 

My point is, no amount of laws would have prevented this. One that is intent on murder or any other crime is not deterred by laws. Laws are on the books to keep honest people honest and to punish after the fact. Hindsight is always 20/20. From what I have seen the police reacted with reason as did the University Administration. Some events just can not be altered or controlled. I am sure the lawyers will prey on the victims families and point to scapegoats other than the actual criminal.


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## Matt308 (Apr 17, 2007)

FalkeEins said:


> ..these people are usually disaffected psycotic former students with a grudge...and of course gun control would make it a bit harder than being able to buy an assault rifle over the counter no questions asked..
> 
> ..mind boggling ...elsewhere in the free world we just sit here and wonder at the stupidity of it all...



No questions asked? You obviously are not familiar with US gun laws.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 17, 2007)

Especially since you can not legally buy any gun "over" the counter. I agree Matt someone needs to learn more about the laws before placing judgement.


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## Matt308 (Apr 17, 2007)

Same with the gunshow hysteria. As anyone will tell you that has ACTUALLY BEEN to a gunshow, the show sponsors require you to either be a member (have a prior background check), a current concealed carry permit, or they relagate you to LOOKING ONLY.

I wish these people would just come out and say it. They want to take away everyone's guns. It's not about a modicum of laws. They want them all. So be a man and put your agenda on the table.


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## pbfoot (Apr 17, 2007)

I really don't know why the NRA types go hysterical every time there is a VT type thing with worry about gun laws . I've got more chance of being Paris Hiltons love toy then proper gun controls in the US 
that problem is spilling over to my country and most firearms used in killings in Canada find there way over the border and most were purchased legally in the US but were stolen from the owners (poorly stored) or sold by the same to low lifes . Whomever had the gun stolen from them should be just as culpable as the user if you you knew who owned them


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## Erich (Apr 17, 2007)

well here in southern Oregon visiting many many gun shows and watching the shifty eye'd kooks in the process....remember gents I live in the Platonic sphere, home of possibly the largest contingent of idiot survivalists on this very planet

as of late a guy off the street can eye-ball a wish and have his credit and background checked in a matter of minutes via computer up to Salem (capitol) and back again wheather to sell or nor. many guns shows for this very reason are opening up on Fridays instead of just the weekends

yes we still have round-ups and wagon trains and Indians doing the whoop ass


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 17, 2007)

pbfoot said:


> I really don't know why the NRA types go hysterical every time there is a VT type thing with worry about gun laws . I've got more chance of being Paris Hiltons love toy then proper gun controls in the US
> that problem is spilling over to my country and most firearms used in killings in Canada find there way over the border and most were purchased legally in the US but were stolen from the owners (poorly stored) or sold by the same to low lifes . Whomever had the gun stolen from them should be just as culpable as the user if you you knew who owned them


If stolen guns are making there way into Canada from the US then there's a problem at the border. You know as well as I you could smuggle a pink elephant into Canada and no one will notice, especially at the falls or Fort Erie...

As far as owners being responsible for their guns being ripped off - do you have facts to back that up? I knew a gun store owner who had his fortified shop broken into - the thieves spent 2 days drilling a hole in a 2 foot concrete wall through a vacated shop next to his (they did this at night). All his guns were in safes and these thieves still managed to rip the guy off. No way should he be held responsible.

NRA folks go nuts after this because the first thing liberal US politicians and news people do is target ALL legal gun owners. If that fear wasn't raised law abiding gun owners in the US would of had their LEGAL firearms confiscated years ago...

BTW I'll repeat - the toughest gun laws in the US are in Washington DC which has the highest crime rate in the US. The most lenient gun laws are found in Arizona - lowest crime rate in the US.


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## FalkeEins (Apr 17, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> I wish these people would just come out and say it. They want to take away everyone's guns. It's not about a modicum of laws. They want them all. So be a man and put your agenda on the table.



.. well I don't think legislators in the US can just sit back and do nothing after this one can they ...guns are designed to kill people, whoever owns them ..freely available they will get into the wrong hands....no good then throwing up your hands in horror every time one of these periodic massacres occurs. We've sat and watched a procession of US commentators on the TV today and if I knew nothing about US guns laws before I do now. No questions asked..? got that wrong - in Virginia, its one question (criminal record) when purchasing a hand-gun..(well, two if you count age...)

yeah we understand that owning a gun in the US is part of that 'we don't need no government in our face, wild frontier' mentality, that the constitution enshrines this 'right' and that no-one could modify that very easily.. 

what opened my eyes today was the American on Sky who explained that he'd moved to Birmingham - the UK's third largest city, not a terribly nice place - to bring up his family in a less violent environment, to escape a culture of violence and gun crime in the US - of all the places he could have gone...


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## pbfoot (Apr 17, 2007)

Then where do the illegal guns come from if not from a source that purchased them legally . Gun control will never occur in the states and for the NRA types to go into damage control is a waste of your dues money


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 17, 2007)

FalkeEins said:


> .. well I don't think legislators in the US can just sit back and do nothing after this one can they ...guns are designed to kill people,


 Wrong again my friend, I hate to be cliche People Kill People, a gun is just an instrument, the same way a knife, screwdriver or shank of spaghetti could be if used if executed correctly


FalkeEins said:


> ..
> whoever owns them ..freely available they will get into the wrong hands


 I've owned guns for 20 years - the only hands my guns have gotten into is mine and those who I allow to handle them, it's that simple. Guns will be stolen, that's a given, but at the same time if all firearms are removed from any general population they will still be acquired, I could point to the UK and many other European countries who have totally banned firearms and yet every year there are people murdered despite any ban, it doesn't work....


FalkeEins said:


> ..
> ....no good then throwing up your hands in horror every time one of these periodic massacres occurs. We've sat and watched a procession of US commentators on the TV today and if I knew nothing about US guns laws before I do now.


 And do you think a news commentator really knows US gun laws? Not only are there are federal laws but each state, District of Columbia and US territory has different gun laws, some with more restrictions, some with little restrictions. Your education on US gun laws amounted to the same amount British cultural exchange I would have recieved if I read the Sun every day for a week.


FalkeEins said:


> ..
> No questions asked..? got that wrong - in Virginia, its one question (criminal record) when purchasing a hand-gun..(well, two if you count age...)


And it works most of the time - if this guy was denied a firearm he could of gotten one illegal anyway, the same way any criminal in any part of the world would do, even in your country...

The man was crazy and was determined to kill and would of did so anyway with or without a gun....


FalkeEins said:


> ..
> yeah we understand that owning a gun in the US is part of that 'we don't need no government in our face, wild frontier' mentality, that the constitution enshrines this 'right' and that no-one could modify that very easily..


 That's right and there are many of us proud of it and by the way look at a map, we still have a wild frontier that requires people to own and use firearms....


FalkeEins said:


> ..
> what opened my eyes today was the American on Sky who explained that he'd moved to Birmingham - the UK's third largest city, not a terribly nice place - to bring up his family in a less violent environment, to escape a culture of violence and gun crime in the US - of all the places he could have gone...


Here ya go, Birmingham has had it's share of gun crimes by your standards...

BBC - Birmingham Have Your Say - Gun Crimes

I think this fellow you cite made a bad choice...

But yet over all if you want to talk comparison crime, lets say burglary, the UK has a higher rate than the US....







Bottom line, unless you ever been to the US and fully understand our criminal system, gun laws and constitution, you have no place to comment, it would be like me bitching about the change of guard at Buckingham....


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 17, 2007)

pbfoot said:


> Then where do the illegal guns come from if not from a source that purchased them legally .


 Go to San Diego (National City to be specific) one weekend. There's tons of illegal stuff crossing our southern borders every day and many of them are illegal firearms making their way from Central and South America. There is also a huge black market that will import guns circumventing any type of regulatory system set up by the BTAF. And of course those guns that are stolen from law abiding citizens, armories and even police station.


pbfoot said:


> Gun control will never occur in the states and for the NRA types to go into damage control is a waste of your dues money


No, it allows law abiding citizens to keep their guns, so we don't wind up like other parts of the world who instituted gun confiscation and who are now paying the price!!!!

Although this is dated, not much has changed in 6 years....

*"Britain, Australia top U.S. in violent crime 
Rates Down Under increase despite strict gun-control measures 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Jon Dougherty 
© 2001 WorldNetDaily.com 

Law enforcement and anti-crime activists regularly claim that the United States tops the charts in most crime-rate categories, but a new international study says that America's former master -- Great Britain -- has much higher levels of crime. 

The International Crime Victims Survey, conducted by Leiden University in Holland, found that England and Wales ranked second overall in violent crime among industrialized nations. 

Twenty-six percent of English citizens -- roughly one-quarter of the population -- have been victimized by violent crime. Australia led the list with more than 30 percent of its population victimized. 

The United States didn't even make the "top 10" list of industrialized nations whose citizens were victimized by crime. 

Jack Straw, the British home secretary, admitted that "levels of victimization are higher than in most comparable countries for most categories of crime." 

Highlights of the study indicated that: 

The percentage of the population that suffered "contact crime" in England and Wales was 3.6 percent, compared with 1.9 percent in the United States and 0.4 percent in Japan. 
Burglary rates in England and Wales were also among the highest recorded. Australia (3.9 percent) and Denmark (3.1 per cent) had higher rates of burglary with entry than England and Wales (2.8 percent). In the U.S., the rate was 2.6 percent, according to 1995 figures; 
"After Australia and England and Wales, the highest prevalence of crime was in Holland (25 percent), Sweden (25 percent) and Canada (24 percent). The United States, despite its high murder rate, was among the middle ranking countries with a 21 percent victimization rate," the London Telegraph said. 
England and Wales also led in automobile thefts. More than 2.5 percent of the population had been victimized by car theft, followed by 2.1 percent in Australia and 1.9 percent in France. Again, the U.S. was not listed among the "top 10" nations. 
The study found that Australia led in burglary rates, with nearly 4 percent of the population having been victimized by a burglary. Denmark was second with 3.1 percent; the U.S. was listed eighth at about 1.8 percent. 
Interestingly, the study found that one of the lowest victimization rates -- just 15 percent overall -- occurred in Northern Ireland, home of the Irish Republican Army and scene of years of terrorist violence. 
Analysts in the U.S. were quick to point out that all of the other industrialized nations included in the survey had stringent gun-control laws, but were overall much more violent than the U.S. 

Indeed, information on Handgun Control's Center to Prevent Handgun Violence website actually praises Australia and attempts to portray Australia as a much safer country following strict gun-control measures passed by lawmakers in 1996. 

"The next time a credulous friend or acquaintance tells you that Australia actually suffered more crime when they got tougher on guns ... offer him a Foster's, and tell him the facts," the CPHV site says. 

"In 1998, the rate at which firearms were used in murder, attempted murder, assault, sexual assault and armed robbery went down. In that year, the last for which statistics are available, the number of murders involving a firearm declined to its lowest point in four years," says CPHV. 

However, the International Crime Victims Survey notes that overall crime victimization Down Under rose from 27.8 percent of the population in 1988, to 28.6 percent in 1991 to over 30 percent in 1999. 

Advocates of less gun control in the U.S. say the drop in gun murder rates was more than offset by the overall victimization increase. Also, they note that Australia leads the ICVS report in three of four categories -- burglary (3.9 percent of the population), violent crime (4.1 percent) and overall victimization (about 31 percent). 

Australia is second to England in auto theft (2.1 percent). 

In March 2000, WorldNetDaily reported that since Australia's widespread gun ban, violent crime had increased in the country. 

WND reported that, although lawmakers responsible for passing the ban promised a safer country, the nation's crime statistics tell a different story: 

Countrywide, homicides are up 3.2 percent. 
Assaults are up 8.6 percent. 
Amazingly, armed robberies have climbed nearly 45 percent. 
In the Australian state of Victoria, gun homicides have climbed 300 percent. 
In the 25 years before the gun bans, crime in Australia had been dropping steadily. 
There has been a reported "dramatic increase" in home burglaries and assaults on the elderly."*


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## pbfoot (Apr 17, 2007)

Illegal guns don't seem to be a problem in this case though since he purchased both legally.
Guns are part of American culture from the Minute Men to the settling of the west when weapons were necessary and nothing will ever infringe on that, if guns were registered or controlled in the US it would be akin to civil war. I just don't like the overflow coming here with the gangs.


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 17, 2007)

pbfoot said:


> I just don't like the overflow coming here with the gangs.


That's a problem Canadians have to tackle, the same way we have to deal with it here. US gang-bangers will not fester in Canada unless there is support for them by people already established as Canadian citizens or landed immigrants and I would guess the latter is far and few. You have a problem with "wanna bees" and they are being fueled by @ssholes from here. There's an advantage however, you control your border and can keep a lot of the crap out.


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## FalkeEins (Apr 18, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> *"Britain, Australia top U.S. in violent crime
> Rates Down Under increase despite strict gun-control measures
> *


_


..yes we have terrible problems here but..do we really have to point out that 1% of 50 million doesn't begin to equate with 0.75% of 240 million...I can do the quote thing too ..

.."Once again, Congress is staring down the barrel of the mighty National Rifle Association, and reasonable gun control laws may become the first of many casualties. Considering that nearly 10,000 Americans are killed in handgun crimes each year - about 25 handgun murders day after day - the last thing we need is exactly what the N.R.A. wants: looser handgun laws.." (New York Times)

..so you see Virginia Tech occurs every day in your country ..only you don't see it like that ...

..I'm surprised you haven't pointed out that had one of the students or the professors had a hand gun on them too, then they could have shot the guy before the carnage .._


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 18, 2007)

FalkeEins said:


> ..yes we have terrible problems here but..do we really have to point out that 1% of 50 million doesn't begin to equate with 0.75% of 240 million...I can do the quote thing too ..
> 
> .."Once again, Congress is staring down the barrel of the mighty National Rifle Association, and reasonable gun control laws may become the first of many casualties. Considering that nearly 10,000 Americans are killed in handgun crimes each year - about 25 handgun murders day after day - the last thing we need is exactly what the N.R.A. wants: looser handgun laws.." (New York Times)
> 
> ..so you see Virginia Tech occurs every day in your country ..only you don't see it like that ...


Because if you knew what you were talking about you would find that most of the murders take place in areas that have some of the most restrictive gun laws in America (Washington DC, NYC, Detroit, Miami, etc.) Again you don't understand that those committing gun crimes in the US don't acquire their weapons legally. Many committing thoses crimes are conviced criminals and aren't supposed to own firearms but yet they get them, that's the problem.


FalkeEins said:


> ..
> ..I'm surprised you haven't pointed out that had one of the students or the professors had a hand gun on them too, then they could have shot the guy before the carnage ..


They could of but they didn't because VT had a standing policy - NO HANDGUNS ON CAMPUS - it really helped on Monday


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## Lucky13 (Apr 18, 2007)

By ADAM GELLER, AP National Writer 
1 minute ago



BLACKSBURG, Va. - Virginia Tech students still on edge after the deadliest shooting in U.S. history got another scare Wednesday morning as police in SWAT gear with weapons drawn swarmed Burruss Hall, which houses the president's office. 

The threat of suspicious activity turned out to be unfounded, said Virginia State Police spokeswoman Corinne Geller said, and the building was reopened. But students were rattled.

"They were just screaming, 'Get off the sidewalks,'" said Terryn Wingler-Petty, a junior from Wisconsin. "They seemed very confused about what was going on. They were just trying to get people organized."

One officer was seen escorting a crying young woman out, telling her, "It's OK. It's OK."

Roommates and professors began opening up Wednesday about the gunman who had killed 32 people and himself in two university buildings on Monday. Roommates said Cho Seung-Hui rarely spoke or made eye contact with them and that his bizarre behavior became even less predictable in recent weeks.

Cho started waking up as early as 5:30 a.m. instead of his usual 7 a.m., his roommate, Joseph Aust, told ABC's "Good Morning America."

"I tried to make conversation with him earlier in the year when he moved in," Aust said. "He would just give one-word answers and stay quiet. He pretty much never looked me in the eye."

Aust was among many students and professors who described the killer in the worst shooting massacre in modern U.S. history as a sullen loner, and authorities said he left a rambling note raging against women and rich kids.

News reports said that Cho, a 23-year-old senior majoring in English, may have been taking medication for depression and that he was becoming increasingly violent and erratic.

Professors and classmates were alarmed by his class writings — pages filled with twisted, violence-drenched writing.

"It was not bad poetry. It was intimidating," poet Nikki Giovanni, one of his professors, told CNN Wednesday. "At first I thought, OK, he's trying to see what the parameters are. Kids curse and talk about a lot of different things. He stayed in that spot. I said, 'You can't do that.' He said, 'Yes, I can.' I said, 'No, not in my class.'"

Giovanni said her students were so unnerved by Cho's behavior that she had security check on her room and eventually had him taken out of her class. Some students had stopped coming to class, saying Cho was taking photos of them with his cell phone, she said.

In screenplays Cho wrote for a class last fall, characters throw hammers and attack with chainsaws, said a student who attended Virginia Tech last fall. In another, Cho concocted a tale of students who fantasize about stalking and killing a teacher who sexually molested them.

"When we read Cho's plays, it was like something out of a nightmare," former classmate Ian MacFarlane, now an AOL employee, wrote in a blog posted on an AOL Web site.

"The plays had really twisted, macabre violence that used weapons I wouldn't have even thought of."

He said he and other students "were talking to each other with serious worry about whether he could be a school shooter."

Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university's English department, said Cho's writing was so disturbing that he had been referred to the university's counseling service.

Despite the many warning signs that came to light in the bloody aftermath, police and university officials offered no clues as to exactly what set Cho off. 

"He was a loner, and we're having difficulty finding information about him," school spokesman Larry Hincker said. 

"We always joked we were just waiting for him to do something, waiting to hear about something he did," said another classmate, Stephanie Derry. "But when I got the call it was Cho who had done this, I started crying, bawling." 

With classes canceled for the rest of the week, many students left town, lugging pillows, sleeping bags and backpacks down the sidewalks. 

On Tuesday night, thousands of Virginia Tech students, faculty and area residents poured into the center of campus to grieve together. Volunteers passed out thousands of candles in paper cups, donated from around the country. Then, as the flames flickered, speakers urged them to find solace in one another. 

As silence spread across the grassy bowl of the drill field, a pair of trumpets began to play taps. A few in the crowd began to sing Amazing Grace. 

Afterward, students, some weeping, others holding each other for support, gathered around makeshift memorials, filling banners and plywood boards with messages belying their pain. 

"I think this is something that will take a while. It still hasn't hit a lot of people yet," said Amber McGee, a freshman from Wytheville, Va. 

Cho — who arrived in the United States as boy from South Korea in 1992 and was raised in suburban Washington, D.C., where his parents worked at a dry cleaners — left a note that was found after the bloodbath. 

A law enforcement official who read Cho's note described it Tuesday as a typed, eight-page rant against rich kids and religion. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media. 

"You caused me to do this," the official quoted the note as saying. 

Cho indicated in his letter that the end was near and that there was a deed to be done, the official said. He also expressed disappointment in his own religion, and made several references to Christianity, the official said. 

The official said the letter was either found in Cho's dorm room or in his backpack. The backpack was found in the hallway of the classroom building where the shootings happened, and contained several rounds of ammunition, the official said. 

Monday's rampage consisted of two attacks, more than two hours apart — first at a dormitory, where two people were killed, then inside a classroom building, where 31 people, including Cho, died. Two handguns — a 9 mm and a .22-caliber — were found in the classroom building. 

According to court papers, police found a "bomb threat" note — directed at engineering school buildings — near the victims in the classroom building. In the past three weeks, Virginia Tech was hit with two other bomb threats. Investigators have not connected those earlier threats to Cho. 

Cho graduated from Westfield High School in Chantilly, Va., in 2003. His family lived in an off-white, two-story townhouse in Centreville, Va. 

At least one of those killed in the rampage, Reema Samaha, graduated from Westfield High in 2006. But there was no immediate word from authorities on whether Cho knew the young woman and singled her out. 

"He was very quiet, always by himself," neighbor Abdul Shash said. Shash said Cho spent a lot of his free time playing basketball and would not respond if someone greeted him. 

Some classmates said that on the first day of a British literature class last year, the 30 or so students went around and introduced themselves. When it was Cho's turn, he didn't speak. 

On the sign-in sheet where everyone else had written their names, Cho had written a question mark. "Is your name, `Question mark?'" classmate Julie Poole recalled the professor asking. The young man offered little response. 

Cho spent much of that class sitting in the back of the room, wearing a hat and seldom participating. In a small department, Cho distinguished himself for being anonymous. "He didn't reach out to anyone. He never talked," Poole said. 

"We just really knew him as the question mark kid," Poole said. 

One law enforcement official said Cho's backpack contained a receipt for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol. Cho held a green card, meaning he was a legal, permanent resident. That meant he was eligible to buy a handgun unless he had been convicted of a felony. 

Roanoke Firearms owner John Markell said his shop sold the Glock and a box of practice ammo to Cho 36 days ago for $571. 

"He was a nice, clean-cut college kid. We won't sell a gun if we have any idea at all that a purchase is suspicious," Markell said. 

Investigators stopped short of saying Cho carried out both attacks. But State Police ballistics tests showed one gun was used in both. 

And two law enforcement officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced, said Cho's fingerprints were on both guns. Their serial numbers had been filed off. 

Gov. Tim Kaine said he will appoint a panel at the university's request to review authorities' handling of the disaster. Parents and students bitterly complained that the university should have locked down the campus immediately after the first burst of gunfire and did not do enough to warn people. 

Kaine warned against making snap judgments and said he had "nothing but loathing" for those who take the tragedy and "make it their political hobby horse to ride." 

"I'm satisfied that the university did everything they felt they needed to do with the heat on the table," Kaine told CBS' "The Early Show" on Wednesday. "Nobody has this in the playbook, there's no manual on this."


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## Matt308 (Apr 18, 2007)

pbfoot said:


> I really don't know why the NRA types go hysterical every time there is a VT type thing with worry about gun laws . I've got more chance of being Paris Hiltons love toy then proper gun controls in the US
> that problem is spilling over to my country and most firearms used in killings in Canada find there way over the border and most were purchased legally in the US but were stolen from the owners (poorly stored) or sold by the same to low lifes . Whomever had the gun stolen from them should be just as culpable as the user if you you knew who owned them



WTF? And in Canada I suppose you would want to try the person who loans his car to a licensed citizen that happens to get into a wreck? That's not rational logic. That's random neuron firing.


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## Matt308 (Apr 18, 2007)

FalkeEins said:


> .. well I don't think legislators in the US can just sit back and do nothing after this one can they ...guns are designed to kill people, whoever owns them ..freely available they will get into the wrong hands....no good then throwing up your hands in horror every time one of these periodic massacres occurs. We've sat and watched a procession of US commentators on the TV today and if I knew nothing about US guns laws before I do now. No questions asked..? got that wrong - in Virginia, its one question (criminal record) when purchasing a hand-gun..(well, two if you count age...)



I only post this Mr. FalkeEins because I so despise ignorance...

_____________________________________________________

Federal law generally requires that licensed firearms dealers conduct a background check on all prospective firearms purchasers to ensure that such persons are not prohibited from buying or possessing a firearm. This background check requirement and the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (“NICS”) were enacted through the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, pursuant to Public Law 103-159, and codified at 18 U.S.C. § 921 et seq. Federal law defines a number of classes of prohibited purchasers (including felons, fugitives, persons adjudicated as “mental defectives” or those committed to mental institutions), and leaves to the states the power to determine additional classes. (For a complete list of federally prohibited purchasers, click here.) 

Under the Brady Act, states have the option of serving as a “state point of contact” and conducting their own background checks using NICS and state informational records and databases, or having the checks performed by the FBI using only NICS. Federal law does not require that private sellers (persons other than firearms dealers) conduct background checks on prospective purchasers.

In Virginia, all firearms transfers by licensed dealers are processed directly through the Department of State Police ("DSP") which enforces the federal purchaser prohibitions referenced above. Bureau of Justice Statistics Survey of State Procedures Related to Firearm Sales, Midyear 2004 (August 2005) and Virginia Code Annotated § 18.2-308.2:2. The DSP is also authorized to provide mental health information maintained in the Central Criminal Records Exchange, pursuant to the requirements of sections 37.2-814, 37.2-819 and 37.2-1014, to the FBI for use in the NICS Index. See 2001 Va. Op. Att'y Gen. 62, 2002 Va. AG LEXIS 72. In addition, Virginia has adopted other classes of prohibited persons, and incorporated some of the federal prohibitions as state offenses. Virginia prohibits the:

Knowing and intentional possession or transportation of any firearm by a person acquitted by reason of insanity and "committed to the custody of the Commissioner of Mental Health, Mental Retardation and Substance Abuse Services" on a charge of: 1) treason; 2) any felony; or 3) certain misdemeanors (see Va. Code Ann. § 18.2-308.1:1);

Purchase, possession or transportation of any firearm by any person adjudicated "legally incompetent," "mentally incapacitated," or "incapacitated," whose competency or capacity has not been restored (see § 18.2-308.1:2);

Purchase, possession or transportation of a firearm by a person who has been involuntarily committed, during the period of commitment (see § 18.2-308.1:3);

Purchase or transportation of any firearm by any person subject to a protective order, or certain other court orders, while the order is in effect (see § 18.2-308.1:4);

Purchase or transportation of a handgun, for at least five years, by any person who, within a 36-month period, has been convicted of two or more misdemeanor drug offenses under sections 18.2-250 or 18.2-250.1 (see § 18.2-308.1:5);

Knowing and intentional possession or transportation of a firearm by any person: 1) convicted of a felony; or 2) who is under the age of 29 and was found guilty as a juvenile (14 years of age or older) of a delinquent act which would be a felony if committed by an adult (see § 18.2-308.2(A)); or

Knowing and intentional possession or transportation of a firearm by any person who is not a citizen of the U.S. or who is not lawfully present in the United States (see § 18.2-308.2:01).

Firearms dealers shall require a prospective purchaser to present one piece of government issued photo-identification, and a separate documentation of residence, before seeking a background check. Section 18.2-308.2:2(B)(1). 
______________________________________________________________

Therefore, Mr. FalkeEins, your post is has been corrected. Only now can you correctly claim that you are no longer collossally ignorant of another country's gun laws. I would caution you that getting your gun law facts from an anti-gun establishment (ie the press) does not speak kindly to your supposed "unbiased" position in this matter. 

You see, there is a different mentality about inalienable rights granted by God and recognized in our constitution and bill of rights, than those in other countries. Most of us are unwilling to sacrafice those inalienable rights in an emotional reaction to a tragic occurrence. We like to think that these same rights are what separates the US from most other citizens of God's green earth. And I personally intend to see it remain that way.


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## Matt308 (Apr 18, 2007)

News sources are now saying that the perp had a history of mental illness. Surprise.


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## pbfoot (Apr 18, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> WTF? And in Canada I suppose you would want to try the person who loans his car to a licensed citizen that happens to get into a wreck? That's not rational logic. That's random neuron firing.


why do you often lend your weapons.


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## Matt308 (Apr 18, 2007)

Thankyou for making my point.


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## FalkeEins (Apr 18, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> We like to think that these same rights are what separates the US from most other citizens of God's green earth. And I personally intend to see it remain that way.



..

.. I've no idea what point you're trying to make...but there is a culture difference sure ...what would you put that down to ..? the fact that you live in a society where violence is the norm..?


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## Matt308 (Apr 18, 2007)

.


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## Matt308 (Apr 18, 2007)

Apparently he's been planning this for quite some time. And he exhibited a string of very common, disturbing and tell-tale signs of a truly demented person with a propensity for violence. So much was overlooked that could have prevented this.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 18, 2007)

By MATT APUZZO, AP National Writer 
9 minutes ago



BLACKSBURG, Va. - Between his first and second bursts of gunfire, the Virginia Tech gunman mailed a package to NBC News containing pictures of him brandishing weapons and video of him delivering a diatribe about getting even with rich people. 

"This may be a very new, critical component of this investigation. We're in the process right now of attempting to analyze and evaluate its worth," said Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of Virginia State Police. He gave no details on the material, which NBC said it received in Wednesday morning's mail.

NBC said that a time stamp on the package indicated the material was mailed in the two-hour window between the first burst of gunfire in a high-rise dormitory and the second fusillade, at a classroom building. Thirty-three people died in the rampage, including the gunman, 23-year-old student Cho Seung-Hui, who committed suicide.

The package included a manifesto that "rants against rich people and warns that he wants to get even," according to a law enforcement official who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak about the case.

MSNBC said the package included a CD-ROM on which Cho read his manifesto.

Late Wednesday, MSNBC showed a photo from the package of Cho glaring at the camera, his arms outstretched with a gun in each hand. He wears a khaki-colored military-style vest, fingerless gloves and a backwards, black baseball cap. "NBC Nightly News" planned to show some of the material Wednesday night.

NBC News President Steve Capus said the network promptly turned the material over to the FBI in New York.

The material is "hard-to-follow ... disturbing, very disturbing very angry, profanity-laced," he said on the MSNBC Web site. Among the materials are digital video files showing Cho talking directly to the camera about his hatred of the wealthy, Capus said.

It does not include any images of the shootings, but contains "vague references," including "things like, `This didn't have to happen,'" Capus said.

The package bore a Postal Service stamp showing that it had been received at a Virginia post office at 9:01 a.m. Monday, about an hour and 45 minutes after Cho first opened fire, according to MSNBC.

If the package was indeed mailed between the first attack and the second, that would help explain where Cho was and what he did during that two-hour window.

Earlier in the day Wednesday, authorities disclosed that more than a year before the massacre, Cho was accused of stalking two women and was taken to a psychiatric hospital on a magistrate's orders because of fears he might be suicidal. He was later released with orders to undergo outpatient treatment.

The disclosure added to the rapidly growing list of warning signs that appeared well before the student opened fire. Among other things, Cho's twisted, violence-filled writings and sullen, vacant-eyed demeanor had disturbed professors and students so much that he was removed from one English class and was repeatedly urged to get counseling.

In November and December 2005, two women complained to campus police that they had received calls and computer messages from Cho, but they considered the messages "annoying," not threatening, and neither pressed charges, Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said.

Neither woman was among the victims in the massacre, police said.

Around the same time, one of Cho's professors informally shared some concerns about the young man's writings, but no official report was filed, Flinchum said.

After the second stalking complaint, the university obtained a temporary detention order and took Cho away because an acquaintance reported he might be suicidal, authorities said. Police did not identify the acquaintance.

On Dec. 13, 2005, a magistrate ordered Cho to undergo an evaluation at Carilion St. Albans, a private psychiatric hospital. The magistrate signed the order after an initial evaluation found probable cause that Cho was a danger to himself or others as a result of mental illness. 

The next day, according to court records, doctors at Carilion conducted further examination and a special justice, Paul M. Barnett, approved outpatient treatment. 

A medical examination conducted Dec. 14 found that that Cho's "affect is flat. ... He denies suicidal ideations. He does not acknowledge symptoms of a thought disorder. His insight and judgment are normal." 

The court papers indicate that Barnett checked a box that said Cho "presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness." Barnett did not check the box that would indicate a danger to others. 

It is unclear how long Cho stayed at Carilion, though court papers indicate he was free to leave as of Dec. 14. Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker said Cho had been continually enrolled at Tech and never took a leave of absence. 

A spokesman for Carilion St. Albans would not comment. 

Though the stalking incidents did not result in criminal charges, police referred Cho to the university's disciplinary system, Flinchum said. But Ed Spencer, assistant vice president of student affairs, would not comment on any disciplinary proceedings, saying federal law protects students' medical privacy even after death. 

Some parents complained that the university failed to lock down the campus and spread a warning after the first round of shootings. Still, two days after the shooting spree, many students resisted pointing fingers. 

"Who would've woken up in the morning and said, `Maybe this student who's just troubled is really going to do something this horrific?'" said Elizabeth Hart, a communications major and a spokeswoman for the student government. 

Lucinda Roy, professor of English at Virginia Tech, said that she, too, relayed her concerns to campus police and various other college units after Cho displayed antisocial behavior in her class and handed in disturbing writing assignments. 

But she said authorities "hit a wall" in terms of what they could do "with a student on campus unless he'd made a very overt threat to himself or others." Cho resisted her repeated suggestion that he undergo counseling, Roy said. 

One of the first Virginia Tech officials to recognize Cho's problems was award-winning poet Nikki Giovanni, who kicked him out of her introduction to creative writing class in late 2005. 

Students in Giovanni's class had told their professor that Cho was taking photographs of their legs and knees under the desks with his cell phone. Female students refused to come to class. She said she considered him "mean" and "a bully." 

Questions lingered over whether campus police should have issued an immediate campus-wide warning of a killer on the loose and locked down the campus after the first burst of gunfire. 

Police said that after the first shooting, in which two students were killed, they believed that it was a domestic dispute, and that the gunman had fled the campus. Police went looking for a young man, Karl David Thornhill, who had once shot guns at a firing range with the roommate of one of the victims. But police said Thornhill is no longer under suspicion. 

___


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 18, 2007)

FalkeEins said:


> ..
> 
> .. I've no idea what point you're trying to make...but there is a culture difference sure ...what would you put that down to ..? the fact that you live in a society where violence is the norm..?


Not at all - the statistics show that the UK could be just as violent as the US, our difference is we have more gun violence which is a given because we're allowed to possess firearms. But it's already been shown countries with stick gun laws will see gun violence as well.

Just remember what this guy did....

Hitler Gun Control


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## 102first_hussars (Apr 18, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Not at all - the statistics show that the UK could be just as violent as the US, our difference is we have more gun violence which is a given because we're allowed to possess firearms. But it's already been shown countries with stick gun laws will see gun violence as well.





I live in the murder capital of Canada, and the majority of murders are commited by stabbings


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 18, 2007)

BINGO!


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## Matt308 (Apr 18, 2007)

FBJ, I'm gonna have to dig up the Un stats that I posted about 9months ago that showed the number of knifings in the UK and how they have gone up drastically since the Dunblane incident and it's subsequent ban. Now where did I put that...


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## Maestro (Apr 18, 2007)

102first_hussars said:


> I live in the murder capital of Canada, and the majority of murders are commited by stabbings



That's why I always bear a MEB (Monadnock Expandable Baton) when I work in night clubs.


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## Matt308 (Apr 18, 2007)




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## 102first_hussars (Apr 19, 2007)

well most bouncers do, have them, and stab proof vests. some times bear mace too


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## FalkeEins (Apr 19, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> News sources are now saying that the perp had a history of mental illness. Surprise.



..what ..?! ..I'd have thought that was a given...

fact is, although I 'know nothing' I accurately profiled him way back at the start of this thread before anyone knew anything about him..

only in America could someone like that get hold of powerful hand guns.. and blast 32 people into oblivion in one hit...still lets keep things in perspective..its not like its central Baghdad yet is it..

yes we're going the same way in the UK - but then we import all your crap eventually..


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## Lucky13 (Apr 19, 2007)

Same as here in Glasgow, much more stabbings than shootings. Well, as they say those who knows, if you survive in Glasgow, you survive ANYWHERE.....
How many of you have heard of the Glasgow Smile???

A *Glasgow smile* (or *Chelsea grin*) is a nickname for the practice of cutting a victim's face from the edges of the mouth to the ears: the cut - or its scars - form an "extension" of what looks like a smile. Sometimes to further hurt or even kill the victim, he or she would then be stabbed or kicked, most notably in the stomach (or in case of kicking, the groin), so that the the face would be ripped apart when the victim screams. The practice originated in the Scottish city of Glasgow, which gave it its name. It also became popular in Chelsea, London (where it is known as a "Chelsea grin") and other areas of Britain, for gangs hoping to leave a message to rival gang members.


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## amrit (Apr 19, 2007)

Lucky13, you've brought back some memories. I remember the first time I was getting ready to visit Glasgow as a kid (early 80s) - my friends scarred me sh*tless with stories of the gangs and hooligans attacking people on the streets with razors. Happily, the closest I came to a gang was a group of Brownies who "stormed" my friend's dad's shop to buy chocolate  

Do you remember the Millwall brick - a broadsheet newspaper folded very small, the corners of which could be used like a knuckle-duster (during the period when football fans were not allowed to take any objects into matches)?


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## YakFlyer (Apr 19, 2007)

Maestro said:


> That's why I always bear a MEB (Monadnock Expandable Baton) when I work in night clubs.



Where can I get me one of those.


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 19, 2007)

FalkeEins said:


> only in America could someone like that get hold of powerful hand guns.. and blast 32 people into oblivion in one hit...still lets keep things in perspective..its not like its central Baghdad yet is it..


No and that incident is not representative of the norm here, even in the most crime ridden cities, yet the media blows it up and folks like you buy it hook line and sinker...


FalkeEins said:


> yes we're going the same way in the UK - but then we import all your crap eventually..


What crap? Music? Culture? That was the most ignorant statement made yet.

Bottom line, we have unprecedented freedoms here that has made this country the melting pot of the world. It unfortunate that things like this have happened but its the price paid for those freedoms. We have shown that yours and other countries in Europe can be just as if not more violent. If you really knew anything about this country you would find that Monday's even is a rare occurrence, not to deny that things like this haven't happened before (I live 15 minutes from Columbine HS). Again, I suggest you look within because as Americans have been criticized as a whole to know little of the outside world, you have demonstrated the same from your side of the pond, just ten fold...


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## Lucky13 (Apr 19, 2007)

I think that we can agree on though fellas, that those who's against the gun laws will breath fresh morning air....


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 19, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> I think that we can agree on though fellas, that those who's against the gun laws will breath fresh morning air....


Agree - The gun lobby here won't allow this to be politicized. The whole gun violence and "assault weapon" issue was never an issue until a left wing California Assemblyman made it his crusade as a tool to ensure he would remain in office. In the end the state established term limits and this freeloader had to leave office...

_"Campaign Laws Aim to Stifle Pro-Gun Activist 
by Larry Pratt 

Russ Howard, a former NRA director, was one of the principal architects of ending the political career of rabidly anti-gun State Senator David Roberti of California. Howard now faces an $808,000 fine. 

Roberti and Assemblyman Mike Roos were the chief sponsors of the legislation that banned semi-automatic firearms. They pushed it in the name of fighting crime, even though then Attorney General Van de Kamp had found that the targeted weapons were involved in less than one percent of the state's homicides. 

Howard was a volunteer with Citizens Against Corruption (CAC) in 1990 when the group spearheaded a campaign against Roos. While Roos was re-elected, his amazingly small margin prompted his resignation a few months later after CAC announced preparations for a recall campaign. 

CAC employed a re-mail technique to leverage the relatively scarce grassroots dollars they had raised to use against Roos. They made voter names in Roos' district available to volunteers, with a letter explaining why Roos should be voted out of office. The volunteers mailed the letters in their own envelopes into Roos' district. 

CAC volunteers bore all the expenses themselves. These donations were independent expenditures that were way less than what would be required to be reported to the state's speech police, the Fair Political Practices Commission (FPPC). Later the Commission would include non-reporting of unknowable independent volunteer expenses as part of the unconstitutionally draconian fine (the Eighth Amendment bars excessive fines). 

In 1992, Howard became executive director of Citizens Against Corruption. Because redistricting had unfavorably shifted David Roberti's old Hollywood district, he ran that year in a special election for a Senate seat that was vacated when one of his cronies went to prison for extortion. It was a safe Democratic district, but the hope was to force him to spend enough in the primary to wound him. CAC's efforts indeed resulted in Roberti spending $2,500,000 on the primary and the runoff. 

Roberti raised so much money that other campaigns around the state were harmed because money they might have raised went to Roberti instead. Partly because Democrats worried that he might do it again, he later had to step down as President of the Senate. 

Immediately after Roberti limped into the runoff primary victory circle, CAC began planning a recall campaign on him. The April 1994 legislative recall was the first to qualify for the ballot since 1914. Roberti had about maxed out his political credit card with Democrat donors. And what made them even less inclined to extend him more political financing was the fact that he was to be term-limited out at the end of 1994. 

Moreover, Roberti had announced his candidacy for the State Treasurer's office. That primary was scheduled for June 1994, just a few weeks after the recall. This jacked his need for campaign funds much higher, even while his credit limit with fellow-Democrats was being exhausted. 

Roberti survived the recall, but only by a small margin. The primary election for Treasurer was just a few weeks away, and Roberti lost. He blamed the "gun lobby" for ending his career by exhausting his resources. 

But Howard learned that fighting people like Roberti was a contact sport. During the petition campaign to force the recall election, the firm getting signed petitions for Citizens Against Corruption explained that Roberti had made them too good an offer. 

Moreover, the recall Chairman, Bill Dominguez, was personally victimized. His firearms collection was stolen from his house. Even though Dominguez never reported the theft to the press, Roberti's campaign began gloating within hours that an "arsenal" had been stolen. 

Howard received death threats. CAC Chairman Richard Carone and his wife received lewd and threatening calls. Donors complained of harassment. CAC headquarters was burglarized, and Roberti claimed to have a "mole" in the campaign. It appeared that part of CAC's mailing list had been stolen and that political hate mail was being sent to members. 

In view of Roberti's great power, his dirty colleagues and the very real threats being made, Howard chose to withhold the full identities of CAC's donors, although the donation amounts were reported. This decision was consistent with Supreme Court rulings that have held that disclosure must be waived in such conditions. 

The Fair Political Practices Commission did not see it that way. It held that donor identities should have been reported along with all the volunteers who re-mailed anti-Roberti letters. Contrary to the law that prohibits stacking by one party, two of the five Commission seats were vacant during the time in question, enabling Roberti's pals to do their evil deeds in darkness. 

Now Howard is in court. The FPPC wants to make the $808,000 fine a court judgment. The trial judge is none other than Lloyd Connelly, a former anti-gun assemblyman and political ally of Mike Roos and David Roberti. Connelly has admitted that Roos donated $5,000 to one of his campaigns, and that Roberti paid $12,000 to Connelly's law firm. 

But, Judge Connelly says that there is no conflict here, and that is why he said nothing of it until he was confronted with it. And of course, he is not willing to recuse himself. 

The anti-gun extremists in California are trying to do to Howard what he did to Roberti. But whereas Howard worked through the electoral process with money voluntarily given for the cause, Roberti, Roos and Connelly are using tax money to conduct a vendetta through the machinery of government. 

Please step up to the plate. Don't let Russ Howard be hung out to dry. He desperately needs funds to pay his legal bills." _

And because of @ssholes like this the gun lobby only got stronger....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 19, 2007)

FalkeEins said:


> ..
> 
> .. I've no idea what point you're trying to make...but there is a culture difference sure ...what would you put that down to ..? the fact that you live in a society where violence is the norm..?



Excuse me? Have you ever actually lived in the United States because Violence is not the norm. You people just happen to only see that stuff and then you generalize and make assumptions that you can not back up about the United States.

I have news for you the violence is no more or less than in any other country in the world. The only reason it is more noticable is because the population is bigger. You have the same problems in the UK so please dont stereotype, that is just wrong.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 19, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> FBJ, I'm gonna have to dig up the Un stats that I posted about 9months ago that showed the number of knifings in the UK and how they have gone up drastically since the Dunblane incident and it's subsequent ban. Now where did I put that...



Then you have the Muslims in the UK blowing up bombs in the Subways and everything. Wait a minute aren't bombs illegal in the UK? How the hell do they do it then?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 19, 2007)

FalkeEins said:


> only in America could someone like that get hold of powerful hand guns.. and blast 32 people into oblivion in one hit...still lets keep things in perspective..its not like its central Baghdad yet is it..
> 
> yes we're going the same way in the UK - but then we import all your crap eventually..


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## Lucky13 (Apr 19, 2007)

As in ANY other country may it be US, Germany, UK OR Sweden which I'm from, you'll always have a few nuckleheads that'll ruin everybody else, who's lawobiding (spelling?) and some of them only have these guns because of these other few.....


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## pbfoot (Apr 19, 2007)

What can be said from my point as an outsider mind you only 2km away is that the vetting process wherebt this chump obtained his weapon is seriously flawed . He was an alien and nuts either one should have prevented his aquisition of a fire arm. But I feel your stats as to killings by weapons may be a bit skewed for example in Toronto a city of approx 4 million there were 72 murders of which 52 were by guns in comparison to Chicago with 452 can anyone explain the difference. The fact that in 2004 firearms were used to murder 58 people in Austrailia, 184 in Canada , and 73 in the Uk but in the US it was 11344 of which only 143 were justifiable. I'm not slamming your choice in the US but I'll wager that there are 32 some new anti gun converts that no longer have a say


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## Lucky13 (Apr 19, 2007)

By MATT APUZZO, Associated Press Writer 
9 minutes ago



BLACKSBURG, Va. - The disturbing video of an armed Cho Seung-Hui delivering a snarling tirade about rich "brats" and their "hedonistic needs" had some marginal value to the official investigation, but it didn't add much that police didn't already know, State Police said Thursday. 

The self-made video and photos of Cho pointing guns as if he were imitating a movie poster were mailed to NBC on the morning of the Virginia Tech massacre. A Postal Service time stamp reads 9:01 a.m. — between the two attacks that left 33 people dead.

On Thursday, university officials announced that Cho's victims would be awarded their degrees posthumously during commencement.

Cho, 23, speaks in a harsh monotone in most of the videotaped rants, but it isn't clear to whom he is speaking. Some of his photos resemble scenes from a South Korean movie in Chan-wook Park's "Vengeance Trilogy."

"You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today," Cho says in one, with a snarl on his lips. "But you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off."

In another, he appears more melancholy, saying: "This is it. This is where it all ends. What a life it was. Some life."

NBC said the package contained a rambling and often incoherent 23-page written statement, 28 video clips and 43 photos. It was given to State Police but contained little that they didn't already know, Col. Steve Flaherty said.

On NBC's "Today" show Thursday, host Meredith Vieira said the decision to air the information "was not taken lightly." Some victims' relatives canceled their plans to speak with NBC because they were upset over the airing of the images, she said.

"I saw his picture on TV, and when I did I just got chills," said Kristy Venning, a junior from Franklin County, Va. "There's really no words. It shows he put so much thought into this and I think it's sick."

The package helped explain one mystery: where the gunman was and what he did during that two-hour window between the first burst of gunfire, at a high-rise dorm, and the second attack, at a classroom building.

"Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats," says Cho, a South Korean immigrant whose parents work at a dry cleaners in suburban Washington. "Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust funds wasn't enough. Your vodka and cognac wasn't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough. Those weren't enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything."

There has been some speculation, especially among online forums, that Cho may have been inspired by the South Korean movie "Oldboy." One of the killer's mailed photos shows him brandishing a hammer — the signature weapon of the protagonist — and in a pose similar to one from the film.

The film won the Gran Prix prize at the Cannes Film Festival in 2004. It was the second of Park's "Vengeance Trilogy" and is about a man unjustly imprisoned for 15 years. After escaping, he goes on a rampage against his captor.

The connection was spotted by Professor Paul Harris of Virginia Tech, who alerted the authorities, according to London's Evening Standard.

It has become commonplace for movies or music to be linked to especially violent killers. One blogger for the Huffington Post, filmmaker Bob Cesca, dismissed the connection as "the most ridiculous hypothesis yet."

Authorities on Thursday disclosed that more than a year before the massacre, Cho had been accused of sending unwanted messages to two women and was taken to a psychiatric hospital on a magistrate's orders and was pronounced a danger to himself. But he was released with orders to undergo outpatient treatment.

The disclosure added to the rapidly growing list of warning signs that appeared well before the student opened fire. Among other things, Cho's twisted, violence-filled writings and sullen, vacant-eyed demeanor had disturbed professors and students so much that he was removed from one English class and was repeatedly urged to get counseling.

Some of the pictures in the video package show him smiling; others show him frowning and snarling. Some depict him brandishing two weapons at a time, one in each hand. He wears a khaki-colored military-style vest, fingerless gloves, a black T-shirt, a backpack and a backward, black baseball cap. Another photo shows him swinging a hammer two-fisted. Another shows an angry-looking Cho holding a gun to his temple. 

He refers to "martyrs like Eric and Dylan" — a reference to the teenage killers in the Columbine High School massacre. 

NBC News President Steve Capus said the package was sent by overnight delivery but apparently had the wrong ZIP code and wasn't opened until Wednesday, NBC said. 

An alert postal employee brought the package to NBC's attention after noticing the Blacksburg return address and a name similar to the words reportedly found scrawled in red ink on Cho's arm after the bloodbath, "Ismail Ax," NBC said. 

Capus said that the network notified the FBI around noon, but held off reporting on it at the FBI's request, so that the bureau could look at it first. NBC finally broke the story just before police announced the development at 4:30 p.m. 

It was clear Cho videotaped himself, Capus said, because he could be seen leaning in to shut off the camera. 

State Police Spokeswoman Corinne Geller cautioned that, while the package was mailed between the two shootings, police have not inspected the footage and have yet to establish exactly when the images were made. 

Cho repeatedly suggests he was picked on or otherwise hurt. 

"You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience," he says, apparently reading from his manifesto. "You thought it was one pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people." 

A law enforcement official said Cho's letter also refers in the same sentence to President Bush and John Mark Karr, who falsely confessed last year to having killed child beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the person was not authorized to speak to the media. 

Earlier Wednesday, authorities disclosed that in November and December 2005, two women complained to campus police that they had received calls and computer messages from Cho. But the women considered the messages "annoying," not threatening, and neither pressed charges, Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said. 

Neither woman was among the victims in the massacre, police said. 

After the second complaint about Cho's behavior, the university obtained a temporary detention order and took Cho away because an acquaintance reported he might be suicidal, authorities said. Police did not identify the acquaintance.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 19, 2007)

On Dec. 13, 2005, a magistrate ordered Cho to undergo an evaluation at Carilion St. Albans, a private psychiatric hospital. The magistrate signed the order after an initial evaluation found probable cause that Cho was a danger to himself or others as a result of mental illness. 

The next day, according to court records, doctors at Carilion conducted further examination and a special justice, Paul M. Barnett, approved outpatient treatment. 

A medical examination conducted Dec. 14 reported that that Cho's "affect is flat. ... He denies suicidal ideations. He does not acknowledge symptoms of a thought disorder. His insight and judgment are normal." 

The court papers indicate that Barnett checked a box that said Cho "presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness." Barnett did not check the box that would indicate a danger to others. 

It is unclear how long Cho stayed at Carilion, though court papers indicate he was free to leave as of Dec. 14. Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker said Cho had been continually enrolled at Tech and never took a leave of absence. 

A spokesman for Carilion St. Albans would not comment. 

Though the incidents with the two women did not result in criminal charges, police referred Cho to the university's disciplinary system, Flinchum said. But Ed Spencer, assistant vice president of student affairs, would not comment on any disciplinary proceedings, saying federal law protects students' medical privacy even after death. 

Some students refused to second-guess the university. 

"Who would've woken up in the morning and said, `Maybe this student who's just troubled is really going to do something this horrific?'" said Elizabeth Hart, a communications major and a spokeswoman for the student government. 

One of the first Virginia Tech officials to recognize Cho's problems was award-winning poet Nikki Giovanni, who kicked him out of her introduction to creative writing class in late 2005. 

Students in Giovanni's class had told their professor that Cho was taking photographs of their legs and knees under the desks with his cell phone. Female students refused to come to class. She said she considered him "mean" and "a bully." 

Lucinda Roy, professor of English at Virginia Tech, said that she, too, relayed her concerns to campus police and various other college units after Cho displayed antisocial behavior in her class and handed in disturbing writing assignments. 

But she said authorities "hit a wall" in terms of what they could do "with a student on campus unless he'd made a very overt threat to himself or others." Cho resisted her repeated suggestion that he undergo counseling, Roy said. 

Questions lingered over whether campus police should have issued an immediate campus-wide warning of a killer on the loose and locked down the campus after the first burst of gunfire. 

Police said that after the first shooting, in which two students were killed, they believed that it was a domestic dispute, and that the gunman had fled the campus. That man is no longer a suspect. 

A dormitory neighbor of the first two victims, Ryan Clark, 22, and Emily Hilscher, 19, described on ABC's "Good Morning America" what she saw that morning in Ambler Johnson Hall. 

"I heard a really loud female voice scream. I opened my door and that's when I saw the blood and the footprints, the sneaker-prints, leading in a trail from her room," Molly Donahue said. 

That's when she saw Clark, a resident assistant in the dorm, on the floor against a door, she said. A friend later told her he was dead. Donahue she said has since tried to return to the dorm but felt physically ill and is still terrified. 

"I got to the point where I can't be alone," she said.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 19, 2007)

*Murders with firearms by country* 

Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom) 
#1 South Africa: 31,918 
#2 Colombia: 21,898 
#3 Thailand: 20,032 
#4 United States: 8,259 
#5 Mexico: 3,589 
#6 Zimbabwe: 598 
#7 Germany: 384 
#8 Belarus: 331 
#9 Czech Republic: 213 
#10 Ukraine: 173 
#11 Poland: 166 
#12 Canada: 165 
#13 Costa Rica: 126 
#14 Slovakia: 117 
#15 Spain: 97 
#16 Uruguay: 84 
#17 Portugal: 84 
#18 Lithuania: 83 
#19 Bulgaria: 63 
#20 United Kingdom: 62 
#21 Australia: 59 
#22 Hungary: 44 
#23 Switzerland: 40 
#24 Latvia: 30 
#25 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 26 
#26 Estonia: 21 
#27 Moldova: 20 
#28 Azerbaijan: 18 
#29 Denmark: 14 
#30 Ireland: 12 
#31 Slovenia: 12 
#32 New Zealand: 7

*Murders by country *

Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom) 
#1 India: 37,170 
#2 Russia: 28,904 
#3 Colombia: 26,539 
#4 South Africa: 21,995 
#5 Mexico: 13,829 
#6 United States: 12,658 
#7 Venezuela: 8,022 
#8 Thailand: 5,140 
#9 Ukraine: 4,418 
#10 Indonesia: 2,204 
#11 Poland: 2,170 
#12 France: 1,051 
#13 Belarus: 1,013 
#14 Germany: 960 
#15 Korea, South: 955 
#16 Zimbabwe: 912 
#17 Jamaica: 887 
#18 United Kingdom: 850 
#19 Zambia: 797 
#20 Italy: 746 
#21 Yemen: 697 
#22 Japan: 637 
#23 Romania: 560 
#24 Malaysia: 551 
#25 Spain: 494 
#26 Canada: 489 
#27 Papua New Guinea: 465 
#28 Kyrgyzstan: 413 
#29 Lithuania: 370 
#30 Moldova: 348 
#31 Bulgaria: 332 
#32 Australia: 302 
#33 Portugal: 247 
#34 Costa Rica: 245 
#35 Georgia: 239 
#36 Latvia: 238 
#37 Chile: 235 
#38 Azerbaijan: 226 
#39 Hungary: 205 
#40 Netherlands: 183 
#41 Czech Republic: 174 
#42 Uruguay: 154 
#43 Finland: 148 
#44 Estonia: 143 
#45 Slovakia: 143 
#46 Armenia: 127 
#47 Tunisia: 113 
#48 Saudi Arabia: 105 
#49 Greece: 81 
#50 Switzerland: 69 
#51 Denmark: 58 
#53 Norway: 49 
#54 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 47 
#55 New Zealand: 45 
#56 Ireland: 38 
#57 Hong Kong: 38 
#58 Slovenia: 36 
#59 Mauritius: 26 
#60 Seychelles: 6 
#61 Iceland: 5 
#62 Dominica: 2 
#63 Qatar: 1 

NationMaster - Crime Statistics


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## Matt308 (Apr 19, 2007)

FalkeEins said:


> ..what ..?! ..I'd have thought that was a given...
> 
> fact is, although I 'know nothing' I accurately profiled him way back at the start of this thread before anyone knew anything about him..
> 
> ...



We have got to talk to Horse. He must be advertising on mentalmidget.com. Kids.


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## Matt308 (Apr 19, 2007)

And here is a more telling statistic from the same nationmaster site.
________________________________________

#1 South Africa: 12.0752 per 1,000 people 
#2 Montserrat: 10.2773 per 1,000 people 
#3 Mauritius: 8.76036 per 1,000 people 
#4 Seychelles: 8.62196 per 1,000 people 
#5 Zimbabwe: 7.6525 per 1,000 people 
#6 United States: 7.56923 per 1,000 people 
#7 New Zealand: 7.47881 per 1,000 people 
#8 United Kingdom: 7.45959 per 1,000 people 
#9 Canada: 7.11834 per 1,000 people 
#10 Australia: 7.02459 per 1,000 people 
#11 Finland: 5.32644 per 1,000 people 
#12 Iceland: 4.66406 per 1,000 people 
#13 Tunisia: 4.02561 per 1,000 people 
#14 Jamaica: 3.95943 per 1,000 people 
#15 Portugal: 3.59445 per 1,000 people 
#16 Chile: 3.32476 per 1,000 people 
#17 Norway: 3.2064 per 1,000 people 
#18 Netherlands: 2.68964 per 1,000 people 
#19 Ireland:


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## Matt308 (Apr 19, 2007)

And if this wasn't so tragic, tell me that this could have been Napolean Dynamite impersonating the killer's voice.

Yahoo!


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## Torch (Apr 19, 2007)

Everybody is blaming the guns, How about society's failure to recognize a problem with a human being, 4 freaking years in college without a friend? Never spoke to anyone, yeah someone raised a small flag but I'm sure the shooter had more rights than the defenseless kids he killed..


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 19, 2007)

pbfoot said:


> for example in Toronto a city of approx 4 million there were 72 murders of which 52 were by guns in comparison to Chicago with 452 can anyone explain the difference.


After living in both countries I will admit, we have more @ssholes. Overall there are a better class of citizen when comparing large Canadian cities with the US, Canadians have a different mentality about things, not to say there isn't a substantial share of scumbuckets in Canada as well...

But those who abide by the law shouldn’t be punished by criminals....


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## Matt308 (Apr 19, 2007)

Not only that Torch, but he did a stint in 2005 in a mental institution. And within the last month or so was checked in again. He was already flagged by the VirginiaTech administration for a need for couseling regarding his violent musings. This was a ticking timebomb that our society is ill equipped to deal with. When the laws were changed back in the 60s to allow the release into society all the mental misfits in this country, we really did a disservice to ourselves. We now have crime and homeless problems that are costing us not only money, but lives. He should have been locked up for his...AND OUR protection long ago.

Just think about this. If only 1/10th of 1% of the US population had some form of mental disorder that resulted in violent tendencies, that's 300,000 wackjobs running around in our society. That's that basis for Shawn of the Dead.


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 19, 2007)

Torch said:


> Everybody is blaming the guns, How about society's failure to recognize a problem with a human being, 4 freaking years in college without a friend? Never spoke to anyone, yeah someone raised a small flag but I'm sure the shooter had more rights than the defenseless kids he killed..


*BINGO!!!!*


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## mkloby (Apr 19, 2007)

FalkeEins said:


> ..these people are usually disaffected psycotic former students with a grudge...and of course gun control would make it a bit harder than being able to buy an assault rifle over the counter no questions asked..
> 
> ..mind boggling ...elsewhere in the free world we just sit here and wonder at the stupidity of it all...



Belated - but define assault rifle for me please. Next, tell me how an armalite is different from another semi-auto rifle or carbine? Assault weapons are a catch phrase from gun control nuts that actually have no real meaning. In NJ an M1 is banned as an "assault weapon!" (or was when I left)

You also seem proud of yourself that you stated that basically he had some bolts loose and a grudge, but my 3 month old son that can't talk could have told you that. I gather nothing else from your postings that you do not understand the US gun control laws (federal, state, nor local) and how they work or effect the citizenry. As Flyboyj pointed out, the majority of crimes are done w/ illegally procured firearms. NJ has some very strict gun control laws - it isn't helping there, is it? Instead, what you have is a society where the criminals are armed to the teeth, law abiding citizens are disarmed, and the police in many areas are overburdened.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 19, 2007)

Can't ANY KIND of weapon be a assault weapon??


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 19, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> Can't ANY KIND of weapon be a assault weapon??


Yep - and it depends on the politicians. The "Assault Weapon" phrase came from California assemblyman Roberti when he did a little homework and read about assault rifles. Trying to sound like he knew what he was talking about he came up with the term "Assault Weapon."


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 19, 2007)

Just figured I would add a poll to see what others opinions on the matter are. Please vote.


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 19, 2007)

Wilco...


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## Matt308 (Apr 19, 2007)

And thus spawned the Clinton Assault Weapons Ban. A laundry list of weapons both by features and by name. Mags limited to 10rds, no bayonet lug, and a list of other feature deemed evil in certain combinations. But the bayonet lug ban had to be the most emotional tripe ever put to law. Made the gun grabbers feel better though!


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## Matt308 (Apr 19, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Just figured I would add a poll to see what others opinions on the matter are. Please vote.




Did you want the WMD poll in the VTech thread, Adler?


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 19, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> And thus spawned the Clinton Assault Weapons Ban. A laundry list of weapons both by features and by name. Mags limited to 10rds, no bayonet lug, and a list of other feature deemed evil in certain combinations. But the bayonet lug ban had to be the most emotional tripe ever put to law. Made the gun grabbers feel better though!


I own an SKS - yep, I had to remove the bayonet (which I would use as a "Cy-pod" when I went shooting). Like I'm really going to go and "bayonet" someone  . I'd like to see if there are any recoreded murders in the US for anyone gettig bayoneted by an SKS. The stupidasses that made the ban didn't realize that an SKS could shoot with the same lethally as an AK-47; it was just a bit longer.


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## Matt308 (Apr 19, 2007)

Do you own the Yugo Model 59 with the evil grenade launcher or have one of the old Russian or Chinese versions? I have the Russian version in pristine shape. Built like a tank.


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## pbfoot (Apr 19, 2007)

Flyboy assholes are equally distributed amongst the world we have a our fair share.In fact we have a whole political party just for them However the vetting process to purchase the weapon was bogus... an alien and a certified nut was able to purchase a weapon no questions asked . The check was cursory and he didn't show up on the computer and the dealer said "he had VA ID and a credit card " if the guy from Deliverance is the first check I would be worried 
I believe a lot of folks in the US would state any further checks would be violating their rights. Well the alien certainly violated 32 peoples rights and if preventing such a mishap would save those kids lives "check me out I've nothing to fear". 
plain and simple not everyone is qualified or stable enough for a weapon and checks should be in place just like the ones we have for the purchase of explosives


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 19, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> Did you want the WMD poll in the VTech thread, Adler?



OOOps thanks for pointing that out. I had both up at the same time. I am going to remove this one and put it in the other thread.


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## Matt308 (Apr 19, 2007)

pbfoot said:


> Flyboy assholes are equally distributed amongst the world we have a our fair share.In fact we have a whole political party just for them However the vetting process to purchase the weapon was bogus... an alien and a certified nut was able to purchase a weapon no questions asked . The check was cursory and he didn't show up on the computer and the dealer said "he had VA ID and a credit card " if the guy from Deliverance is the first check I would be worried
> I believe a lot of folks in the US would state any further checks would be violating their rights. Well the alien certainly violated 32 peoples rights and if preventing such a mishap would save those kids lives "check me out I've nothing to fear".
> plain and simple not everyone is qualified or stable enough for a weapon and checks should be in place just like the ones we have for the purchase of explosives



But Pb the laws are already on the books. He was not supposed to be able to purchase a handgun. EVER! We shouldn't be grabbing guns, but wondering why his mental facility commitment was not caught in the background check. You don't ban cars because the DMV gave an illegal a drivers license.


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 19, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> Do you own the Yugo Model 59 with the evil grenade launcher or have one of the old Russian or Chinese versions? I have the Russian version in pristine shape. Built like a tank.


Mine is Chinese. Once I got all the cosmoline out it never misfired.



pbfoot said:


> Flyboy assholes are equally distributed amongst the world we have a our fair share.In fact we have a whole political party just for them However the vetting process to purchase the weapon was bogus... an alien and a certified nut was able to purchase a weapon no questions asked . The check was cursory and he didn't show up on the computer and the dealer said "he had VA ID and a credit card " if the guy from Deliverance is the first check I would be worried
> I believe a lot of folks in the US would state any further checks would be violating their rights. Well the alien certainly violated 32 peoples rights and if preventing such a mishap would save those kids lives "check me out I've nothing to fear".
> plain and simple not everyone is qualified or stable enough for a weapon and checks should be in place just like the ones we have for the purchase of explosives


The guy should not of been out in public to begin with...

*"Authorities on Wednesday disclosed that more than a year before the massacre, Cho had been accused of sending unwanted messages to two women and was taken to a psychiatric hospital on a magistrate's orders and was pronounced a danger to himself. But he was released with orders to undergo outpatient treatment." *

That's where the whole mess started, not at the background check, which by the way never existed until the anti-gun lobby got it written into Federal law.


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## pbfoot (Apr 19, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> But Pb the laws are already on the books. He was not supposed to be able to purchase a handgun. EVER! We shouldn't be grabbing guns, but wondering why his mental facility commitment was not caught in the background check. You don't ban cars because the DMV gave an illegal a drivers license.


Thats exactly what I was saying the laws are already on the books but but appear to be cosmetic checks rather then real. If I remember correctly when these laws were enacted the complaint was that they were toothless but had been watered down during the legislative procedure to ensure that they would pass


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## Matt308 (Apr 19, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> That's where the whole mess started, not at the background check, which by the way never existed until the anti-gun lobby got it written into Federal law.



...with the pro-gun lobby support.


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## Matt308 (Apr 19, 2007)

pbfoot said:


> Thats exactly what I was saying the laws are already on the books but but appear to be cosmetic checks rather then real. If I remember correctly when these laws were enacted the complaint was that they were toothless but had been watered down during the legislative procedure to ensure that they would pass



There is some merit of truth that much wrangling went into the exact wording of the laws. What was of most concern was that the laws would be open ended and allow for abuse by witholding any closure to the check. The fact that the laws are not supported by the infrastructure is NOT a gun problem, but rather a problem with our ability to properly prioritize funding and dissemination of necessary information.

Ho was deemed mentally unstable, by authorities. He was in a "gun-free" zone. That's two laws he has broken before he ever even pulls the weapons out of his sack.


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## Matt308 (Apr 19, 2007)

Grandfather of the killer announced his son, the killer's father, came from Saudi Arabia prior to his marriage to killer's mother. True?


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## Matt308 (Apr 19, 2007)

And see? This is the kinda $hit that needs to be addressed right now. Take her kid(s) away and lock her up. FOR-E-V-E-R!!

________________________________________________
From Fox News...

CHURCH HILL, Tenn. — 

A mother of a kindergarten student was banned from a school after officials said she walked into a classroom, pointed a toy gun at students and pulled the trigger several times.

The incident happened Tuesday, a day after the shootings at Virginia Tech, and scared the teachers and students.

Church Hill police and Hawkins County school officials were scheduled to meet Thursday with the woman, whose name was not immediately released, and determine if charges should be filed. Officials have already banned the woman from Church Hill Elementary School for one year.

The woman and another small child went to her student's classroom to pay for an upcoming field trip, and the incident happened when the teacher turned around to log in the payment.

"The mom walked in toward the middle of the classroom, and the teacher heard this click, click, click, click — like four to six times," school principal Jean Heise said. "A teacher's assistant witnessed her take a gun and point it directly toward four to five kids. With everything that's happened the last couple of days, she (the assistant) was just in shock."

The woman then left with the small child and took the gun with her. The gun was metallic silver with western styling like a cap pistol.

Heise immediately called the police. Later, the woman apologized to the principal and said, "I didn't mean any harm."

Church Hill Police Chief Mark Johnson said the woman could be charged with aggravated assault, and he was eager to hear the woman's reasoning.

"Even before Virginia Tech you would think that the average adult in America today would know you don't bring any type of gun to school — toy or not. Second of all, you wouldn't go around pointing at kindergartners making shooting noises," he said.

Church Hill is about nine miles west of Kingsport, along the Virginia border.


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## mkloby (Apr 19, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> Can't ANY KIND of weapon be a assault weapon??



That was exactly my point. It's just meaningless demonizing terminology.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 19, 2007)

By MATT APUZZO, Associated Press Writer 
48 minutes ago



BLACKSBURG, Va. - Long before he boiled over, Virginia Tech gunman Cho Seung-Hui was pushed around and laughed at as a schoolboy in suburban Washington because of his shyness and the strange, mumbly way he talked, former classmates say. 

ADVERTISEMENT

Chris Davids, a Virginia Tech senior who graduated from Westfield High School in Chantilly, Va., with Cho in 2003, recalled that the South Korean immigrant almost never opened his mouth and would ignore attempts to strike up a conversation.

Once, in English class, the teacher had the students read aloud, and when it was Cho's turn, he just looked down in silence, Davids recalled. Finally, after the teacher threatened him with an F for participation, Cho started to read in a strange, deep voice that sounded "like he had something in his mouth," Davids said.

"As soon as he started reading, the whole class started laughing and pointing and saying, `Go back to China,'" Davids said.

Cho shot 32 people to death and committed suicide Monday in the deadliest one-man shooting rampage in modern U.S. history. The high school classmates' accounts add to the psychological portrait that is beginning to take shape, and could shed light on the video rant Cho mailed to NBC in the middle of his rampage at Virginia Tech.

In the often-incoherent video, the 23-year-old Cho portrays himself as persecuted and rants about rich kids.

"Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats," says Cho, who came to the U.S. at about age 8 in 1992 and whose parents work at a dry cleaners in suburban Washington. "Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust funds wasn't enough. Your vodka and cognac wasn't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough. Those weren't enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything."

In other developments Thursday:

Gov. Timothy Kaine announced the appointment of an independent panel to look into the tragedy and how authorities handled it. Police and university officials have been accused of missing warning signs in Cho's behavior and failing to safeguard the campus after the gunfire broke out. The panel will be led by former Virginia State Police superintendent Gerald Massengill and will also include former Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge.

• University officials said that all of Cho's student victims would be awarded degrees posthumously, and that other students terrorized by the shootings might be allowed to end the semester immediately without consequences.

Among the victims of the massacre were two other Westfield High graduates: Reema Samaha and Erin Peterson. Both young women graduated from the high school last year. Police said it is not clear whether Cho singled them out.

Stephanie Roberts, 22, a member of Cho's graduating class at Westfield High, said she never witnessed anyone picking on Cho in high school.

"I just remember he was a shy kid who didn't really want to talk to anybody," she said. "I guess a lot of people felt like maybe there was a language barrier."

But she said friends of hers who went to middle school with Cho told her they recalled him getting picked on there.

"There were just some people who were really mean to him and they would push him down and laugh at him," Roberts said. "He didn't speak English really well and they would really make fun of him."

Virginia Tech student Alison Heck said a suitemate of hers on campus — Christina Lilick — found a mysterious question mark scrawled on the dry erase board on her door. Lilick went to the same high school as Cho, according to Lilick's Facebook page. And Cho once scrawled a question mark on the sign-in sheet on the first day of a literature class, and other students came to know him as "the question mark kid."

"I don't know if she knew that it was him for sure," Heck said. "I do remember that that fall that she was being stalked and she had mentioned the question mark. And there was a question mark on her door."

Heck added: "She just let us know about it just in case there was a strange person walking around our suite." 

Lilick could not immediately be located for comment, via e-mail or telephone. 

Regan Wilder, 21, who attended Virginia Tech, high school and middle school with Cho, said she was in several classes with Cho in high school, including advanced-placement calculus and Spanish. She said he walked around with his head down, and almost never spoke. And when he did, it was "a real low mutter, like a whisper." 

As part of an exam in Spanish class, students had to answer questions in Spanish on tape, and other students were so curious to know what Cho sounded like that they waited eagerly for the teacher to play his recording, she said. She said that on the tape, he did not speak confidently but did seem to know Spanish. 

Wilder recalled high school teachers trying to get him to participate, but "he would only shrug his shoulders or he'd give like two-word responses, and I think it just got to the point where teachers just gave up because they realized he wasn't going to come out of the shell he was in, so they just kind of passed him over for the most part as time went on." 

She said she was sure Cho probably was picked on in middle school, but so was everyone else. And it didn't seem as if English was the problem for him, she said. If he didn't speak English well, there were several other Korean students he could have reached out to for friendship, but he didn't, she said. 

Wilder said Cho wasn't any friendlier in college, where "he always had that same damn blank stare, like glare, on his face. And I'd always try to make eye contact with him because I recognized the kid because I'd seen him for six years, but he'd always just look right past you like you weren't there." 

Eleven people hurt in the attack remained hospitalized, at least one in serious condition. 

Authorities on Wednesday disclosed that more than a year before the massacre, Cho had been accused of sending unwanted messages to two women and was taken to a psychiatric hospital on a magistrate's orders and was pronounced a danger to himself. But he was released with orders to undergo outpatient treatment. 

Also, Cho's twisted, violence-filled writings and menacing, uncommunicative demeanor had disturbed professors and students so much that he was removed from one English class and was repeatedly urged to get counseling. 

On Wednesday, NBC received a package containing a rambling and often incoherent 23-page written statement from Cho, 28 video clips and 43 photos — many of them showing Cho, in a military-style vest and backward baseball cap, brandishing handguns. A Postal Service time stamp reads 9:01 a.m. — between the two attacks on campus. 

The package helps explain one mystery: where the gunman was and what he did during that two-hour window between the first burst of gunfire, at a high-rise dorm, and the second attack, at a classroom building. 

"You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today," a snarling Cho says on video. "But you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off." 

Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of the Virginia State Police, said Thursday that the material contained little they did not already know. Flaherty said he was disappointed that NBC decided to broadcast parts of it. 

"I just hate that a lot of people not used to seeing that type of image had to see it," he said. 

"I saw his picture on TV, and when I did I just got chills," said Kristy Venning, a junior from Franklin County, Va. "There's really no words. It shows he put so much thought into this and I think it's sick." 

With a backlash developing against the media, Fox News said it would stop running the pictures, and other networks said they would severely limit their use. 

"It has value as breaking news," said ABC News spokesman Jeffrey Schneider, "but then becomes practically pornographic as it is just repeated ad nauseam." 

___


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## Matt308 (Apr 19, 2007)

Sensationalist attention whores. All of the press.


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## Maestro (Apr 19, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> Can't ANY KIND of weapon be a assault weapon??



Of course ! I could even use a baseball bat to assault somebody... And it's not considered as an assault weapon. It's not even considered as a weapon !



YakFlyer said:


> Where can I get me one of those.



Monadnock Lifetime Products

Or you can also search the internet for "Expandable Batons". But be careful, in some countries those weapons need a certification to be bought... Or they may even be considered illegal in your country.


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## pbfoot (Apr 19, 2007)

From experiance by a an friend if the cops ask you what the bat is doing in the car and you say sports your OK if you say protection your not


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## Maestro (Apr 19, 2007)

Yeah, but it's up to you to be bright enough to answer "sport".


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## Maharg (Apr 20, 2007)

From what I have seen in the media. This kid was a F...ing mental case, who purchaced handguns from the local gunshop because "The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms." Why?


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## 102first_hussars (Apr 20, 2007)

The right to bare arms had something to do with the fear of another british attack from back in the day, but it was never amended


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 20, 2007)

Maharg said:


> From what I have seen in the media. This kid was a F...ing mental case, who purchaced handguns from the local gunshop because "The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms." Why?



Rules should have barred weapon purchase By MATTHEW BARAKAT, Associated Press Writer 
1 hour, 19 minutes ago

McLEAN, Va. - A judge's ruling on Cho Seung-Hui's mental health should have barred him from purchasing the handguns he used in the Virginia Tech massacre, according to federal regulations. But it was unclear Thursday whether anybody had an obligation to inform federal authorities about Cho's mental status because of loopholes in the law that governs background checks. 

Cho purchased two handguns in February and March, and was subject to federal and state background checks both times. The checks turned up no problems, despite a judge's ruling in December 2005 that Cho "presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness."

"On the face of it, he should have been blocked under federal law," said Denis Henigan, legal director of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

The 23-year-old South Korean immigrant was evaluated by a psychiatric hospital after he was accused of stalking two women and photographing female students in class with his cell phone. His violence-filled writings were so disturbing that professors begged him to get counseling.

The language of the ruling by Special Justice Paul M. Barnett almost identically tracks federal regulations from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Those rules bar the sale of guns to individuals who have been "adjudicated mentally defective."

The definition outlined in the regulations is "a determination by a court ... or other lawful authority that a person as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness ... is a danger to himself or to others."

*Virginia State Police send information on prohibited buyers to the federal government. They maintain that the sale was legal under state law and would have been barred only if the justice had committed Cho to a psychiatric hospital. Barnett ordered outpatient treatment instead.*

The Virginia attorney general's office declined to discuss the application of gun laws to Cho's case. Barnett also declined to comment.

The state uses a slightly different standard than the federal government, barring sales to individuals who have been judged "mentally incapacitated."

George Burke, a spokesman for Democratic Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (news, bio, voting record) of New York, said millions of criminal and mental-health records are not accessible to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, mostly because state and local governments lack the money to submit the records.

McCarthy has sponsored legislation since 2002 that would close loopholes in the national background check system for gun purchases.

Initially states were required to provide all relevant information to federal authorities when the instant background checks were enacted, but a U.S. Supreme Court ruling relieved them of that obligation.

"The law is very confused about this," said Richard Bonnie, a professor of law and psychiatry at the University of Virginia who heads a state commission on mental-health reform. "The source of the confusion is the relation between federal and state law."

Also Thursday, the owner of an Internet gun store based in Green Bay, Wis., told The Associated Press that Cho used his Web site to purchase one of the weapons used in the shootings. Cho paid $268 for the gun.

Eric Thompson, who runs http://www.thegunsource.com, said the Walther .22-caliber handgun was then shipped to a Virginia pawnbroker so Cho could pick it up.

Thompson said he had no idea his business was involved until he was contacted Tuesday by ATF agents.

"I just feel absolutely terrible that this tragedy even happened in the first place," he said.

___


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## Matt308 (Apr 20, 2007)

Maharg said:


> From what I have seen in the media. This kid was a F...ing mental case, who purchaced handguns from the local gunshop because "The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms." Why?



I knew someone would hit on this. I think mentioned this on the first page of the thread.

So, Mahag, it's Bush's fault, is it?


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## Matt308 (Apr 20, 2007)

© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com 


Kennesaw, Ga., City Hall 

As the nation debates whether more guns or fewer can prevent tragedies like the Virginia Tech Massacre, a notable anniversary passed last month in a Georgia town that witnessed a dramatic plunge in crime and violence after mandating residents to own firearms. 

In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw – responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. – unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of "Wild West" showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting – as a victim, attacker or defender. 

The crime rate initially plummeted for several years after the passage of the ordinance, with the 2005 per capita crime rate actually significantly lower than it was in 1981, the year before passage of the law. 

Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available – for the year 2005 – show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189. 

(Story continues below) 


By comparison, the population of Morton Grove, the first city in Illinois to adopt a gun ban for anyone other than police officers, has actually dropped slightly and stands at 22,202, according to 2005 statistics. More significantly, perhaps, the city's crime rate increased by 15.7 percent immediately after the gun ban, even though the overall crime rate in Cook County rose only 3 percent. Today, by comparison, the township's crime rate stands at 2,268 per 100,000. 

This was not what some predicted. 

In a column titled "Gun Town USA," Art Buchwald suggested Kennesaw would soon become a place where routine disagreements between neighbors would be settled in shootouts. The Washington Post mocked Kennesaw as "the brave little city … soon to be pistol-packing capital of the world." Phil Donahue invited the mayor on his show. 

Reuters, the European news service, today revisited the Kennesaw controversy following the Virginia Tech Massacre. 

Police Lt. Craig Graydon said: "When the Kennesaw law was passed in 1982 there was a substantial drop in crime … and we have maintained a really low crime rate since then. We are sure it is one of the lowest (crime) towns in the metro area." Kennesaw is just north of Atlanta. 

The Reuters story went on to report: "Since the Virginia Tech shootings, some conservative U.S. talk show hosts have rejected attempts to link the massacre to the availability of guns, arguing that had students been allowed to carry weapons on campus someone might have been able to shoot the killer."


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## renrich (Apr 20, 2007)

The president doesn't say we have a right to bear arms. The Constitution of the United States of America says we have a right to bear arms! It probably would be wise for those who are not citizens of the USA to stay out of a debate about the right to keep and bear arms.


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## Matt308 (Apr 20, 2007)

Oh I don't know. I like those who have not, telling us we too should not be allowed to "bare arms". Deep down I find their musings entertaining. Sad. But entertaining.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 20, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> I knew someone would hit on this. I think mentioned this on the first page of the thread.
> 
> So, Mahag, it's Bush's fault, is it?



It was bound to happen. If a house that belongs to somebody living in Denmark goes up in flames it is automatically the fault of Bush.


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## renrich (Apr 20, 2007)

Right on youall! Read the new "American Rifleman" last night and the article about the 308 Marlin Express. Always liked lever rifles. Have a 1895 Browning in 30 06. What used to be the worlds record elk was killed by a 1895 Win in 30 40 Krag.


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## 102first_hussars (Apr 20, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> It was bound to happen. If a house that belongs to somebody living in Denmark goes up in flames it is automatically the fault of Bush.




Or American Capitalism exploiting 3rd world countries


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## Matt308 (Apr 20, 2007)

renrich said:


> Right on youall! Read the new "American Rifleman" last night and the article about the 308 Marlin Express. Always liked lever rifles. Have a 1895 Browning in 30 06. What used to be the worlds record elk was killed by a 1895 Win in 30 40 Krag.



1895 Browning in .30-06? Obviously a modern rifle. I too like lever actions. Only own one, though.


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## renrich (Apr 20, 2007)

Hmmmm, exploiting third world countries. Where do we go with this? Yes it is modern. Well 20 years old. It is a copy of the 1895 Win that was designed by John Browning, possibly the greatest gun designer of all time, born in Utah, the great American West, part of our heritage of taking care of ourself instead of waiting for someone else to do it for us and that includes our security. Wonder if some other English speaking(at least partly) countries around the world might not be speaking German or Russian today if it weren't for the USA?


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## Matt308 (Apr 20, 2007)

And he was a Canadian.


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## mkloby (Apr 20, 2007)

102first_hussars said:


> Or American Capitalism exploiting 3rd world countries



Is this the beginning of the surface of a socialist neo-colonialism argument???


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## Matt308 (Apr 20, 2007)

I think Hussars was being fascetious like the rest of us.


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## mkloby (Apr 20, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> I think Hussars was being fascetious like the rest of us.



Picking up sarcasm has never been one of my strongpoints... just like when I PM'd you and didn't pick up on yours...  

I'm not any better at it in face to face encounters either.


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## renrich (Apr 20, 2007)

mkloby, unfortunately I am, like you, not too perceptive about people and sarcastic remarks. I should have noticed the avatar but never having used them I am not as aware as I should be.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 20, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> 1895 Browning in .30-06? Obviously a modern rifle. I too like lever actions. Only own one, though.



I have a nice Winchester 30-30


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 20, 2007)

Yes Hussars was just making a joke. You have to take what he says with a grain of salt.


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## renrich (Apr 20, 2007)

Good advice Adler. The 1895 Browning I have is fun to shoot. I ruined it as far as a collector by putting a recoil pad and a receiver sight. It ejects out the top and holds 5 rounds(with one in the chamber) and when you shower down and then yank that big lever down and that big fat case flies out and over your shoulder and you are ready for another cap to pop well you can put a lot of lead in the air in a hurry. Bring on the bad guys. The 95 Win was a big favorite with the Texas Rangers about the turn of the century and there are a lot of photos taken of them with 95s in their hands and of course Teddy Roosevelt used a 95 in 405 Win to take a lot of game in Africa.


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## Matt308 (Apr 20, 2007)

mkloby said:


> Picking up sarcasm has never been one of my strongpoints... just like when I PM'd you and didn't pick up on yours...
> 
> I'm not any better at it in face to face encounters either.



A Marine Officer with inability to sense sarcasm. Never heard of such an animal.


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## 102first_hussars (Apr 20, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Yes Hussars was just making a joke. You have to take what he says with a grain of salt.



Kiss my @ss


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## Matt308 (Apr 20, 2007)

Hey, thats rocksalt dammit.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 20, 2007)

102first_hussars said:


> Kiss my @ss


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## mkloby (Apr 20, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> A Marine Officer with inability to sense sarcasm. Never heard of such an animal.



Being socially retarded doesn't prohibit you from being commissioned...


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## Matt308 (Apr 20, 2007)

I was actually stereotyping you as the typical hardass marine officer with no sense of humour. That would suit you well based upon your callous posts in this forum.


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## mkloby (Apr 20, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> I was actually stereotyping you as the typical hardass marine officer with no sense of humour. That would suit you well based upon your callous posts in this forum.



Callous??? Me???  What was that line from Cinderella Man... "My heart is for my family. My brains and my balls are for business."


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## Matt308 (Apr 21, 2007)




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