# Which WWII Axis nation produced most dangerous pilots?



## Chiron (May 10, 2005)

I heard someone said that US pilots, who participate in both European and Pacific theatures, believed Japanese were the most fearsome opponents in comparison with their German counterparts.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 10, 2005)

well yes the japaneese earnt themselfs a fearsome reputation, they we not just fighting for thier homeland, they had centuries of traditions to uphold..........


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2005)

Possibly...

I know that the Japanese were not as disciplined in the air as the Germans were. They tended to fight individually and lacked tactical teamwork. Comments?!?


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## plan_D (May 10, 2005)

The way of the warrior. 

The Germans had a certain warrior code to uphold too. Prussian military history was rich with victory, the Great War was the first loss they'd suffered in over 100 years. I'm sure the Luftwaffe had a certain standard to live up to. I certainly know that German General Staff Officers did. 

All that is null and void anyway, we all know the Romanian pilots were the most dangerous Axis pilots.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2005)

plan_D said:


> All that is null and void anyway, we all know the Romanian pilots were the most dangerous Axis pilots.



Dangerous or crazy


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## cheddar cheese (May 10, 2005)

The Finns... 8)


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## plan_D (May 10, 2005)

He has a good point. The Finnish were remarkable pilots (and army for that matter). Their lack of effective equipment really made them much less dangerous than they should have been.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2005)

plan_D said:


> He has a good point. The Finnish were remarkable pilots (and army for that matter). Their lack of effective equipment really made them much less dangerous than they should have been.



Yep - would have to agree - just think "Brewster Buffaloes?!?" and look what they did with them!!!


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## cheddar cheese (May 10, 2005)

Oh my god people agreed with me...


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> Oh my god people agreed with me...



It's you're luck day! Go buy a Lotto ticket!


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## plan_D (May 10, 2005)

They shot down seven Mk.V Spitfires with those Buffaloes! Admittedly, VVS pilots weren't the best the in world...


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2005)

plan_D said:


> They shot down seven Mk.V Spitfires with those Buffaloes! Admittedly, VVS pilots weren't the best the in world...



I said it before, too bad the Finns didn't give combat training to the Marines stationed at Midway


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## cheddar cheese (May 10, 2005)

Other that the B-239, what else did the Finns use?


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## plan_D (May 10, 2005)

Those French things...I can't remember but they look like a squashed squared Hurricane...   

They also used Blenheims. And some Bi-plane...maybe the Gladiator but I can't quite remember...


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## plan_D (May 10, 2005)

http://hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/faf/ww2air.html



> The most important fighters available during the Continuation War (1941-1944) were Brewster B-239 ("Buffalo"), Messerschmitt Bf 109G, Morane-Saulnier MS 406, Curtiss 75A (P-36) and Fiat G.50.



http://www.geocities.com/acrawford0/Finn.html

That's an awesome site on the FAF. And they did use Gladiators!



> Four units operated the Gladiator during its service with the Finns, these were;
> 
> LeLv.12 Flew 67 sorties without loss.
> 
> ...


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## cheddar cheese (May 10, 2005)

Dewoitine D.520?  Didnt they use Mk.I Hurricanes too?


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## plan_D (May 10, 2005)

No, they never came anywhere near a Hurricane Mk.I. The only Hurricanes they came near were Hurricane Mk. IIBs and IICs and that was only to shoot them down 'cos they were Soviet.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 10, 2005)

but the fins used allot of stuff, including -109Gs i believe.......


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## cheddar cheese (May 10, 2005)

Everyone used 109G's  Heck, even the Italians did.


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## plan_D (May 10, 2005)

I see none of you can read. Scroll up a bit, I've given you two sites and a list of the most important fighter types in the FAF. The list clearly states Bf-109G.


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## cheddar cheese (May 10, 2005)

Whoops, I missed that. Now im angry with myself, because I failed to remember their use of G.50's


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## plan_D (May 10, 2005)

See those Gladiator sorties? What a joke. 2,000 - 1 Victory - 10 losses for TleLv.16. That actually might be a ground attack unit, this is my guess because it's different from the others.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2005)

I heard stories about the Russians pilots, shooting down a German, landing their aircraft close to their victim, then attempting to kill em' while on the ground!


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## cheddar cheese (May 10, 2005)

Russians also used their I-16's on occasions to just ram straight through the enemy


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2005)

Theres a photo I've seen of a HE 111 shot down by the Russians at the start of the German invasion. The thing looks like it has 1000 holes in it. 

At times I think the Ruskies could of been the most dangerous - a little anger management problem maybe?  Maybe for good reason!


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## plan_D (May 11, 2005)

They needed anger management but they were just poo pilots. They got slaughtered, let's face it.


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## mosquitoman (May 11, 2005)

Apart from the odd 1 or 2 that didn't- like Kodhezub and Poryshkin (are they spelt right?)


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## plan_D (May 11, 2005)

Yes, there were around 3 that had talent but poor training let the VVS down. As well as letting their pilots fly drunk.


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## mosquitoman (May 11, 2005)

They flew drunk!?


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## plan_D (May 11, 2005)

I have heard stories of a few flying drunk, yes. Vodka provides courage, or so they thought. They also gave alcohol to their ground troops but in some circumstances so did the Germans.


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## mosquitoman (May 11, 2005)

Along the same lines as the tot of rum in the Royal Navy then


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## plan_D (May 11, 2005)

Nah, that was just because the Royal Navy are a bunch of pissheads.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 11, 2005)

plan_D said:


> Yes, there were around 3 that had talent but poor training let the VVS down. As well as letting their pilots fly drunk.



Although a lot later, read Victor Belinko's book "Mig Pilot." He's the guy that defected with a Mig-25 to Japan in 1976. He tells of a time when he's getting ready for a training mission and his crew chief fell backbard on the borading ladder while he was being strapped into this aircraft. The guy drank some straight alcohol used to perge brake lines during aircraft maintenace.  

Belinko stated that at any given time, half the Soviet AF ground personnel were stoned drunk!


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## cheddar cheese (May 11, 2005)

mosquitoman said:


> Apart from the odd 1 or 2 that didn't- like Kodhezub and Poryshkin (are they spelt right?)



Kozhedub and Pokryshkin.

Sorry, couldnt resist


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 11, 2005)

on a very good spitfire documentary i saw recently, they were talking about the oxygen systems, and stated that "it of course didn't take long for the ground crews to realise that a few breaths of oxygen were an instant cure for a hangover", not that RAF ground crew ever got drunk...........


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## cheddar cheese (May 11, 2005)

Youve been waiting for the opportunity to post that


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 11, 2005)

but there could be no better opertunity to post it could there, and if there was who knows how long i'd be waiting for it...........


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## cheddar cheese (May 11, 2005)

...Or how long it would be before I said it


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 11, 2005)

well i couldn't let you take credit for it could i............


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## FLYBOYJ (May 11, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> few breaths of oxygen were an instant cure for a hangover"



Yep - I could confirm, it still is!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 11, 2005)

so it really does work?? and is it perminant??


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## FLYBOYJ (May 11, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> so it really does work?? and is it perminant??



For me If I stayed hydrated I was "OK."

STORY-TIME (4 years ago when I worked for BAE Flight Systems): After a night of consumption, karaoke, and carousing, I came into work feeling a little ragged, to put it mildly. At about 10 a.m. one of my bosses from flight ops asks me to go on a T-33 FCF. Not wanting to pass up a chance to fly, I accepted. As I was putting on my flight suit it felt like I was going to puke out sand paper. I started drink some water and then took a water bottle out to the aircraft. I have an older HGU-26 helmet with a MBU-5 oxygen mask, so I like to really test my equipment during the preflight. One of the egress guys was helping me into the rear seat of the aircraft, and hooked up my O2 mask for a test. He then looked at me and said "Breath deep, it cures hangovers." I don't know if this guy knew I was plastered the night before of if he could smell the alcohol remnants on me, but after 2 shots I was fine. An hour later I was back on the ground after some "yanks and banks and some stalls and falls" and felt fine the rest of the day! 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 11, 2005)

wow, i'll remember that........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 11, 2005)

Well I would have to say the Japanese pilots. Anyone who is willing to slam there plane into a steel deck of a ship has more balls than me!


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## FLYBOYJ (May 11, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Well I would have to say the Japanese pilots. Anyone who is willing to slam there plane into a steel deck of a ship has more balls than me!



Based on that mission I would have to agree, but is the pilot dangerous or stupid (or both)?!?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 12, 2005)

I would have to say both and very brave to go along with it.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 12, 2005)

pilot's that are willing to ram into ships, or even planes in some cases, to save their homeland are far from stupid, they are brave and noble men worthy of our respect.........


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## plan_D (May 12, 2005)

I'd say fanatical and brainwashed but okay.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 12, 2005)

I agree, brainwashed but very brave.


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## mosquitoman (May 12, 2005)

All nation's forces talk about fighting to the last ullet, but the Japanese were the only ones to actually do it. That's why they deserve respect


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## FLYBOYJ (May 12, 2005)

I don't know folks, to make the ultimate sacrifice in that matter, I guess could be perceived as very brave, but knowing now that their sacrifice was in vain?!?

I think suicide tactics in warfare are useless, now matter how brave perceived!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 12, 2005)

yes they are useless, but at least they do not have to face te shame of surrendering........


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## Chiron (May 12, 2005)

Bushido in war actually became very dangerous to civilizans in large. Japanese armies were infamous for killing and playing thier captured enemies as well as civilians. For example, the Rape of Naking, thousands of women were raped in horrific ways (such as scenes of raping pregnant women and decapitated the women and cooked the infants). Even the Nazi representative was horrifyed by what he saw, and actually set up a camp in Naking to help Chinese civilians. 

In comparsion to German army, I found Japanese armies were fighing in more like medieval like of war; even worsened than their counterparts Chinese, who were lack of equipemnts but not in fighting. 

But again, in war, most of men go wild, few remains conscious.


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## plan_D (May 12, 2005)

Personally, I don't find the blind fanatical attitude of the Japanese soldier worthy of my respect. Their prowess on the field of battle does but their willingness of commiting suicide and their shameful treatment of those that surrendered is ing, even by war standards.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 12, 2005)

plan_D said:


> their shameful treatment of those that surrendered is ing, even by war standards.



Great statement! My wife's grandfather surrendered at Baatan. He was pulled off the death march when it was discovered he was an intel officer. He wrote a book about the whole ordeal


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## Chiron (May 12, 2005)

Regarding of Japanese warrior code in war, how do you compare this with chivalry in Europe?

I found it interesting that both Europeans and Japan have similar warrior code of honor (correct me if i am wrong on this).

Also, how about German soldiers? Other than their attitude toward poor Jewish people, how Germans treat their POW, women, and civilians?


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## FLYBOYJ (May 12, 2005)

I just saw a special about Japanese POW camps, if you were captured by the Germans, there was someting like a 4 in 100 chance you would die in captivity. If you were captured by the Japanese, that rose to 35 in 100!


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## plan_D (May 13, 2005)

European Chivilary is hardly comparable to the Japanese Warrior Code; Bushido. Chivilary in the Middle Ages was used to bring two comparable warriors on the battle face-to-face, their social standing would have to be equal. By World War II it provided a face of gentlemanship, they were your enemies but they were doing their duty. When the battle is over, the best man won that is all. Those that surrendered were not treated harshly by those that still held the values of Chivilary. There was no disgrace in surrendering in the face of a superior enemy. 

Bushido always instilled in the mind to fight to your last breath. By retreating or surrendering, you disgrace your Commander, your Shogun or your Emperor. Disgraceful defeat would mean suicide. This was still the same in World War II. 

World War II was Total War. The Allies and Axis all shot men who had surrendered on the battlefield. There were many reasons for that, most of the time for the Axis or Allies on the Western Front it was because they didn't have time to send them to the back or couldn't send them to the back. 
On the Eastern Front it was harsh hell and both Soviets and Germans were as bad as one another. I, personally, think that the Soviets were just as bad as the Japanese. The *only* reason people survived incampment in the Soviet Union was because the Soviets realised they were running short of slave workers. 
In the CBI and PTO though, the Japanese acted like savage animals to those they captured. When a man surrenders and you accept his surrender, he is off the battlefield and no longer a combatant. And should be treat like a non-combatant but the Japanese did just as bad to civilians as they did to soldiers. Look at what they did in China.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 13, 2005)

plan_D said:


> When a man surrenders and you accept his surrender, he is off the battlefield and no longer a combatant. And should be treat like a non-combatant but the Japanese did just as bad to civilians as they did to soldiers. Look at what they did in China.



Not trying to push the familiy business, try to get a copy of my wife's grandfather's book "Surviving the Day." My mother in law was always on my case to read it, when I finally did, I couldn't put it down. It describes exactly what you're saying.


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## evangilder (May 13, 2005)

Another interesting one is "Flyboys". It describes what happened to the pilots that were shot down while bombing Chichi-Jima. Horrific.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 13, 2005)

evangilder said:


> Another interesting one is "Flyboys". It describes what happened to the pilots that were shot down while bombing Chichi-Jima. Horrific.



Yep, another good one too!


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## plan_D (May 13, 2005)

It all worked against the Japanese though because stories coming back to the line made the troops fight harder and were more willing to die then surrender. 

The same applies to the Germans defending East Prussia and Eastern Germany. The horrific tales of Soviet mutilation, torture and rape made the German troops fight to their last breath because it was pointless surrendering, you were going to die a horrific death anyway. May as well take as many of them with you.


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## Chiron (May 13, 2005)

"I, personally, think that the Soviets were just as bad as the Japanese"

What kind of atrocity did Soviets do in WWII? I always thought Imperial Japanese troops and Nazis were only ones who done that.......


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## Soren (May 13, 2005)

Chiron said:


> "I, personally, think that the Soviets were just as bad as the Japanese"
> 
> What kind of atrocity did Soviets do in WWII? I always thought Imperial Japanese troops and Nazis were only ones who done that.......



Actually the Soviets commited alot more and bigger atrocities than any other nation of WWII.


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## DAVIDICUS (May 13, 2005)

For those of us who may be historically challenged, can you give some examples of Soviet atrocities that rose to the level of the evil perpetrated by the Nazis and Empire?


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## Chiron (May 14, 2005)

Man, its really hard for me to believe Soviets actualy commited atrocities, afterall they sacrificed so many people in defeating Nazi Germany. I guess its 
kind like hearing stories about good guy is in fact a bad guy.


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## evangilder (May 14, 2005)

If you look at the three days after the end of the war with Germany what the Soviet troops did to the German civilians, it is horrendous. I don't have alot of info on it, but I think Erich and Adler have both mentioned it in other postings. 

Here is just one example, there are many stories like this:
_Just inside the east Prussian border with Soviet occupied Lithuania, the town of Nemmersdorf was the first to fall (temporarily) into the hands of the victorious Red Army. Overrun by General Gatlitsky's 11th Guards Army, his soldiers, crazy with bloodlust, set about raping, looting and killing with such ferocity that eventually discipline had to be restored to force the soldiers back to fighting the war. From buildings, Russian signs were hung which read 'Soldiers! Majdanek does not forgive. Take revenge without mercy!'. When the Soviet 4th Army took over the town five days later, hardly a single inhabitant remained alive. Women were found nailed to barn doors after being stripped naked and gang raped, their bodies then used for target practice. Many women, and girls as young as eight years old, were raped so often and brutally that they died from this abuse alone. Children were shot indiscriminately and all those trying to flee were crushed to death under the treads of the Soviet tanks. Forty French prisoners-of-war were shot on the spot as spies after welcoming the Red Army as liberators. Seventy one women and one man were found in houses, all dead. All the women, including girls aged from eight to twelve, had been raped.

In other East Prussian villages within the triangle Gumbinnen-Goldap-Ebenrode, the same scenes were witnessed, old men and boys being castrated and their eyes gouged out before being killed or burned alive. In nearby Metgethen, a suburb of Königsberg, recaptured by the German 5th Panzer Division, around 60 women were found in a demented state in a large villa. They had been raped on average 60 to 70 times a day. In nearly every home, the bodies of women and children were found raped and murdered. The bodies of two young women were found, their legs had been tied one limb each between two trucks, and then torn apart when the trucks were driven away in opposite directions. At Metgethen railway station, a refugee train from Konigsberg, consisting of seven passenger coaches, was found and in each compartment seven to nine bestially mutilated bodies were discovered. Alexander Solzhenitsyn, an ex captain in the Soviet Army, recalls, "All of us knew very well that if girls were German they could be raped and then shot. This was almost a combat distinction" (Details of these, and other atrocities, are contained in the Eastern Documentation Section of the German Federal Archives in Berlin)

The orgy of rape by Soviet troops was far greater than at first believed. Even women and young girls, newly liberated from concentration camps in Poland and in Germany, were brutally violated._


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## DAVIDICUS (May 14, 2005)

Very sad, very disturbing. I think war really is Hell, don't you think?


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## evangilder (May 14, 2005)

Indeed. But massacres and atrocities like that on a grand scale are leadership driven. Once a few try it and it goes unpunished or unanswered for, it is an encouragement for others. It was a dark time in the history of the Soviet Union.


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## Chiron (May 14, 2005)

that was almost like Rape of Naking in China.

Rape of Naking:

"In December of 1937, the Japanese Imperial Army marched into China's capital city of Nanking and proceeded to murder 300,000 out of 600,000 civilians and soldiers in the city. The six weeks of carnage would become known as the Rape of Nanking and represented the single worst atrocity during the World War II era in either the European or Pacific theaters of war."

"After the destruction of the POWs, the soldiers turned their attention to the women of Nanking and an outright animalistic hunt ensued. Old women over the age of 70 as well as little girls under the age of 8 were dragged off to be sexually abused. More than 20,000 females (with some estimates as high as 80,000) were gang-raped by Japanese soldiers, then stabbed to death with bayonets or shot so they could never bear witness.

"Pregnant women were not spared. In several instances, they were raped, then had their bellies slit open and the fetuses torn out. Sometimes, after storming into a house and encountering a whole family, the Japanese forced Chinese men to rape their own daughters, sons to rape their mothers, and brothers their sisters, while the rest of the family was made to watch."

Some Japanese soldiers even cannibalized the small infants and new born babies. They considered fetus as delicacy as sushi. 



What is unique about Japanese atrocities that even today, many Japanese prominent officials deny such event. Germany, in comparison, done much job in helping heal the wound of Jewish as well as Europeans in post war era.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 14, 2005)

Chiron said:


> that was almost like Rape of Naking in China.
> 
> Rape of Naking:
> 
> ...



Not to bang a political drum here folks and bring up old discussions but it appalls me when knowing this happened, people are quick for criticizing the US for dropping the atomic bomb! It could be said that 2 wrongs don't make a right and "Revenge is mine says the lord," but my feeling is "payback is a bitch."


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## evangilder (May 14, 2005)

I hear ya, FBJ. It was insane what happened in Nanking. May it never be forgotten, nor repeated.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 14, 2005)

Chiron said:


> What is unique about Japanese atrocities that even today, many Japanese prominent officials deny such event. Germany, in comparison, done much job in helping heal the wound of Jewish as well as Europeans in post war era.



Chiron, you're on the money!  



evangilder said:


> I hear ya, FBJ. It was insane what happened in Nanking. May it never be forgotten, nor repeated.



You Bet


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## Chiron (May 14, 2005)

Here is an article on Naking:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/223038.stm

About the US atomic bombs, it becomes complex when one understand the atrociteis done by Japanese imperial armies and the Japanese government's attitude toward their past. Some would argue that Japanese civilians didnt deserve to be punish for their crime, and one atomic bomb is enough. Others would go as far as to claim that Chinese people have no right to protest against Japan on the issue of war crimes, since China invaded Tibet and killed their own citizens during the Communist revolution and later Cultural Revolution.

I would argue that it is not just to say that modern Jewish people have no right to get compensate from Germany for Holocaust based solely on the fact that they too have acted inhumanly toward Palestinians in Israel. Similarly, Chinese, Koreans, and Western POW too deserve an apology from Japan without any political discrimination and rhetoric. 

For the atomic bombs issue, one should also look at a much broad scope. Americans knew the historical importance of the ancient capitals such as Kyoto, and avoided to bomb the cities. And I think thats one side of American politicans who acted consciously without personal hatred toward their enemies.

On the other side, I doubt there wasnt a racial factor contributing to the final decision of droping the 2nd bomb. And revnege may also contributed to that outcome as Japan was responsible for the declaration of hostility to the world peace.


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## Soren (May 14, 2005)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Possibly...
> 
> I know that the Japanese were not as disciplined in the air as the Germans were. They tended to fight individually and lacked tactical teamwork. Comments?!?



Yes; Right on !


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## FLYBOYJ (May 14, 2005)

Chiron said:


> And revnege may also contributed to that outcome as Japan was responsible for the declaration of hostility to the world peace.



I call it "payback with interest."


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## wmaxt (May 14, 2005)

Soren said:


> FLYBOYJ said:
> 
> 
> > Possibly...
> ...



As a group (the Japanese did not use formations much) the lack of arial discipline was their undoing. The arial dsiscipline of the Allies allowed lesser planes like the F4F and P-40s beat them consistently.

The Atomic bombs were dropped for several reasons:

1. The Invasion of Japan would be terribly expensive with regaurds to casulties and the length of the war. As much as 2 years of bloody battles were projected if the Invasion were to happen.
2. Time wise the invasion of Japan would allow Russia into the fray - NOT desired for the above reasons (the brutal occupation of captured lands).
3. Two bombs were dropped to Show the Japanese and the Russians that the first was not a fluke.
4. To show the Russians that the war and associated conquests was OVER.

From what I've seen the Russians were at least Half of the reason for the use of the Atomic bombs.

wmaxt


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## Soren (May 14, 2005)

wmaxt said:


> As a group (the Japanese did not use formations much) the lack of arial discipline was their undoing. The arial dsiscipline of the Allies allowed lesser planes like the F4F and P-40s beat them consistently.
> 
> wmaxt



Exactly wmaxt. 

Also the fact that the Japanese airforce was outnumbered by the U.S. airforce didnt make their undoing any better !


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## FLYBOYJ (May 15, 2005)

You Guys Rock!


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## plan_D (May 15, 2005)

It is hard to believe people haven't heard of the ing Soviet acts late in the war. From the words of an East Prussian talking about her plight in 1944 "...it was our holocaust but no one cared."

Russia, to this day, refuse to apologise for it's acts in Germany and East Europe.


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## Chiron (May 15, 2005)

"Russia, to this day, refuse to apologise for it's acts in Germany and East Europe."

I can understand how Russians feel about this, and I can feel it is really hard for them, who lost over 20 millions people in that war, to be blamed for their undoing at same time.  

I dont have any data or resources to back up my theory for this. But, I have found that there is a similarity between Russians and Japanese military system. 

They were both treated inhumanly by their superior, and the wartime propaganda about how their enemies were like contributed greatly to their reaction in battlefield. Chinese were seen as "pigs" by Japanese, who believed themselves as the children of gods. Once your oppoents become demonized, then there is no reason for you to treat them equally as human being. 

Russians were also treated badly by their officiers and retreat can only ended up being killed by your country men. Moreover, rumors as well as propaganda about the German cruelty toward the captured men and women intensified their hatred to the enemies. 

Once Chinese or German captial fell, Najing and Berlin, years of accumulation of brutality and madness exploded instantly, and victorious ones sought revenge on their powerless enemies in hoping to comfort their lost souls.


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## Chiron (May 16, 2005)

By the way, a week ago, Tony Blair of Great Britain has warned Germany not to develop a victim cutlure.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050509/325/fiejb.html


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## delcyros (May 16, 2005)

That schouldn´t be given by politics. There are even german (and of course japanese...)victims of ww2. No doubt. Wars are between nations but it´s almost everytimes the man and woman, who are the victims. However, the quality of crimes allowed by the german people (resp. their nazi government)and done by them is uncomparable to anything else in history and will never be forgetten. It is part of our cultural memory. And is treated in that way, also. There is no way to compare the crimes, this should let to a misleading way, this is a task to be made by a historical view.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 17, 2005)

I think the world as a whole was a victom of Hitlers views and what he did. The German people however do not wish to remove it from our history, it happened and it can not be forgoten. I was watching a good report on TV during the opening of the Holocaust monument in Berlin and they interviewed several teen agers and they all said, Germany is to blame for wat happened and it can not be forgoten. They also did say though that they (there generation) should not be to blame for it. I agree with them on this.



plan_D said:


> It is hard to believe people haven't heard of the ing Soviet acts late in the war. From the words of an East Prussian talking about her plight in 1944 "...it was our holocaust but no one cared."
> 
> Russia, to this day, refuse to apologise for it's acts in Germany and East Europe.



My wifes grandmother was a victom of this. She was raped several times by Russian soldiers. She hates them still today and I can not blame her. She was only a little girl at the time.


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## plan_D (May 17, 2005)

The Soviets were just as bad, sometimes worse than the Nazis. The only reason this isn't widely accepted is because even with post-war tensions, the Soviets helped us beat the Nazis. We have to show some gratitude. 

In reality it needed a harsher regime to defeat the Nazi regime. The Soviet Union slaughtered more than the Nazi one did.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 17, 2005)

I dont think the world will ever see something again like the way the Russians and the Germans treated one another. It is just sick. Both sides.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 18, 2005)

well we must hope it never happens, and only by learning about it can we prevent it again........


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## cheddar cheese (May 18, 2005)

Although I think inevitably it is bound to happen at some time in the future. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but it will happen.


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## lesofprimus (May 18, 2005)

Rememer the Iran/Iraq War??? All those innocent civialians being gassed to death???? How about Angola???

THAT was bad by modern statistics..... And compared to WWII it was nothing....

Makes u truely realize how far the human race has come..... And we still have a hell of a long way to go....


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## wmaxt (May 18, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> Rememer the Iran/Iraq War??? All those innocent civialians being gassed to death???? How about Angola???
> 
> THAT was bad by modern statistics..... And compared to WWII it was nothing....
> 
> Makes u truely realize how far the human race has come..... And we still have a hell of a long way to go....



You Said it!


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## Chocks away! (May 19, 2005)

plan_D said:


> The way of the warrior.
> 
> The Germans had a certain warrior code to uphold too. Prussian military history was rich with victory, the Great War was the first loss they'd suffered in over 100 years. I'm sure the Luftwaffe had a certain standard to live up to. I certainly know that German General Staff Officers did.
> 
> All that is null and void anyway, we all know the Romanian pilots were the most dangerous Axis pilots.


 Are you being sarcastic? But they had several high scoring aces! 8)


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## Chocks away! (May 19, 2005)

Concerning your current discussion, i always say you need to have a good knowlege of history to be a complete person. The other day i was talking to a girl that didn't know about the holocaust! Or that soaps were made from the dead! I mean some people have no idea how much cruelty the human race is capable of.


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## plan_D (May 19, 2005)

I was sarcastic about the last line, yes. 

Is it me, or did you just say that soap is made from the dead? You're talking about the fat off dead animals, right?


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## FLYBOYJ (May 19, 2005)

plan_D said:


> I was sarcastic about the last line, yes.
> 
> Is it me, or did you just say that soap is made from the dead? You're talking about the fat off dead animals, right?



I think he meant dead as in dead concentration camp victims


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## plan_D (May 19, 2005)

I see. Alright, I missed the _were_.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 19, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> Rememer the Iran/Iraq War??? All those innocent civialians being gassed to death???? How about Angola???
> 
> THAT was bad by modern statistics..... And compared to WWII it was nothing....
> 
> Makes u truely realize how far the human race has come..... And we still have a hell of a long way to go....



Very true. I actually forgot about the Balkans...Bosnia, Kosovo, Croatia, Albania and Serbia. Seeing all those mass graves actually turned my stomach. The wars there were actually the bloodiest the world has ever seen since WW2.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 19, 2005)

'namm was no fairy tale either.........


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## cheddar cheese (May 19, 2005)

No war is a fairy tale.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 19, 2005)

Sure it is we just go in there and hold hands with the enemy and skip and sing songs!


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## plan_D (May 19, 2005)

He's right, what you see on the news is a big lie. 

World War 2, the Germans invading, it's all a lie. Poland invited them, they had a party, punch was served!

But don't go telling that to war veterans, they're really stuck in the lie.


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## cheddar cheese (May 20, 2005)

And in Vietnam the VC's were just playing hide and seek with the Yanks  It all makes sense now!


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## FLYBOYJ (May 20, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> And in Vietnam the VC's were just playing hide and seek with the Yanks  It all makes sense now!



Yep - the few times the NVA came out and fought in a major battle, they had their asses handed to them.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 20, 2005)

yes and how many big battles were there?? and how much of it was jungle fighting where america got their arse's kicked??


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## plan_D (May 20, 2005)

That was a bit harsh, don't you think, lanc?

Vietnam was lost by the U.S due to politics more than anything. War weariness brought that war to an end, although I am in the understanding that the U.S likes to make out the Vietcong were unbeatable. 

The Tet Offensive was a crushing defeat for the Vietcong, it just caused much heartache in the U.S due to bias media coverage who were against the war.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 20, 2005)

i didn't think it was harsh at all, it was no more harsh than FB's comment............


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## FLYBOYJ (May 20, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> yes and how many big battles were there?? and how much of it was jungle fighting where america got their arse's kicked??



To educate you my young friend the NVA attempted twice to remove US forces from the South by force. The first time was in 1968 known as the TET offensive which ended in a military disaster for the NVA but scored a huge political victory for North Viet Nam. The second was the 1972 spring offensive where the NVA even attempted to roll tanks into SVN, and once again they got slaughtered. Nixion at the same time bombed Hanoi into oblivion. 

Viet Nam was a rough go but don't be swayed by all those movies that continually show US forces getting hammered from the enigmatic Viet Cong. Although "Charlie" was a tough foe, and there were many tough large scale firefights, the US Army and Marines took care of business despite their losses, poor morale, and poor leadership from those idiots in charge of running the whole debacle. Although the whole action in my opinion was wrong, there are many who believe (and want the world to believe) that the US Military performed poorly there when in fact it was the other way around. My brother was there for 2 tours and although he doesn't talk much about it, he's a great source to seperate the fact from the BS


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## FLYBOYJ (May 20, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> i didn't think it was harsh at all, it was no more harsh than FB's comment............



My comment wasn't harsh Lanc, just the truth!


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## plan_D (May 20, 2005)

The U.S did have an extremely hard time though. It wasn't a walk in the park for the U.S nor was it all Hollywood makes it out to be. I'd safely say it *was* a U.S disaster. 

The 1972 Offensive was actually pretty impressive from the Vietcong point of view. I'm impressed with their use of armour anyway, it was quite effective. Tactically sound too but against an obviously firepower superior enemy. 

The bombing of Hanoi, the most vicious bombing campaign known to man. 11 days non-stop B-52s smashed that place to pieces, with a loss of 15 B-52s.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 20, 2005)

plan_D said:


> The U.S did have an extremely hard time though. It wasn't a walk in the park for the U.S nor was it all Hollywood makes it out to be. I'd safely say it *was* a U.S disaster.
> 
> The 1972 Offensive was actually pretty impressive from the Vietcong point of view. I'm impressed with their use of armour anyway, it was quite effective. Tactically sound too but against an obviously firepower superior enemy.
> 
> The bombing of Hanoi, the most vicious bombing campaign known to man. 11 days non-stop B-52s smashed that place to pieces, with a loss of 15 B-52s.



Thanks D - I get a little steamed when it comes to Viet Nam, and Lanc, if you think i was a bit harsh, my apologies


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 20, 2005)

well you cannot deny that you struggled to come with the guerilla tactics of troops that really knew the terain.......


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## FLYBOYJ (May 20, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> well you cannot deny that you struggled to come with the guerilla tactics of troops that really knew the terain.......



Oh Absolutely! But once "in country" many of the US soldiers learned how to deal with these disadvantages and learned a lot of dirty tricks themselves. My brother had a friend who was there a year before he was. This guy learned to move through the jungle better than the Viet Cong and was often the guy sent "over the wire" to suppress a sniper or any other problem their firebase was experiencing. My brother told me he owed his life to this fellow who taught my brother not only to fight, but to survive.

By the time the fighting ended for the US soldier in 1973 "Charlie" was figured out but not suppressed. As my brother put it, it was like trying to exterminate roaches in a dirty kitchen.


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## plan_D (May 20, 2005)

The British forces in Burma took a while to work out how to fight in the jungle, with a year of thought they turned out to be better than the Japanese. The British carried their memories into Indonesia with them. 

It seemed, with the U.S, that they had forgotten their pacific actions during World War 2. _Platoon_ is a good movie to watch if you want to see how it was like for those learning and those that had learnt how to fight in the jungle during Vietnam.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 20, 2005)

plan_D said:


> The British forces in Burma took a while to work out how to fight in the jungle, with a year of thought they turned out to be better than the Japanese. The British carried their memories into Indonesia with them.
> 
> It seemed, with the U.S, that they had forgotten their pacific actions during World War 2. _Platoon_ is a good movie to watch if you want to see how it was like for those learning and those that had learnt how to fight in the jungle during Vietnam.



Very correct D! My brother said he lost 2 Lieutenants (West Point Grads) who wouldn't listen to the guys that were in country for awhile.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 21, 2005)

yes we watched part of platoon in history.......


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## FLYBOYJ (May 21, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> yes we watched part of platoon in history.......



Although a good film, don't believe everything in it. My brother told me at times it was very boring and lonely, that's why many soldiers took to drugs


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 22, 2005)

i don't take everying in it as gospel, but i've seen allot of backround information and class works that backs up most of the true stuff in the film..........


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## cheddar cheese (May 22, 2005)

Apparently the director of it was himself a Vietnam veteran, and all the actors were required to go through the training he did. He didnt allow them to wash either, and when they got tired and wanted to go home, thats when he decided it was time to start filming! 8)


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## plan_D (May 22, 2005)

Yes, Oliver Stone was a real Vietnam veteran. He filmed it out in Indonesia and made them dig the trenches, march and do exercises.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 22, 2005)

The problem with Vietnam was the Polotics. The US Army did in most cases have a military advantage over the NVG. Yes they were fighting an up until now relativly new kind of guerilla warfare but overall the US military crushed the North Vietmanese. 
What killed the US was the polotics. A company of men being told to take Hill 324 and then after they took it by killing 34 VC and losing 4 of there own men in combat they are ordered to leave the hill. VC comes back and takes it all back, and what do we have: "And Next: The Taking of Hill 324 Part II!" Other factors not being allowed to bomb Hanoi or other targets until the Operation Linebackers. The whole war was a poloticians wet dream and it cost the war for the soldiers.
Now with all that said, I am not trying to make it out to be a cake walk for the US soldiers. They fought many hard battles and lost many too.


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## plan_D (May 26, 2005)

On the first page of this thread CC asked if the FAF used the Hurricane. I never thought they did but I've seen a few profiles of Hurricanes with Finnish markings. 

However the only information I've been able to find is about the FAF capturing a Hurricane IIA. Does anyone have informations on the units that used the Hurricanes delivered from Britain, if they did have any.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 26, 2005)

Here is some info on the 12 Hurricanes the Finnish bought from England in 1940.



> Finnish government purchased 12 Hurricane fighters from Britain in early 1940. The Finnish aircraft were from the first Gloster Hurricane series of 500 aircraft. They had the Merlin III engine and a Hamilton or a Rotol propeller. On the 29th of January 1940 the Finnish pilots selected to fly the fighters to Finland met at Finnish Air Force HQ in Helsinki. The detachment leader was Lt. Jussi Räty, for which the det was to be called "Detachment Räty". The other pilots were ensigns Aarne Alitalo, Heikki Kaukovaara, Eino Mesinen, Erkki Mustonen, Paavo Myllylä, Aarne Nissinen and Tapio Taskinen, sergeants Paavo Aikala and Uuno Karhumäki, also Sgt. Martti Laitinen and Pekka Vassinen.
> 
> Lt. Räty was assigned from LeLv 26 (Air Squadron 26), which was in the process of converting to the new Gloster Gladiators. The other pilots came from the replacement regiment at Parola.
> 
> ...


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## cheddar cheese (May 26, 2005)

Knew I was right. 8)


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## FLYBOYJ (May 26, 2005)

Finns - All the way!


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## cheddar cheese (May 26, 2005)

I love the Finns 8)


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## FLYBOYJ (May 26, 2005)

Especially Anna Strömberg - Miss Finland, Oops, wrong post!

Reactions: Bacon Bacon:
1 | Like List reactions


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 26, 2005)

it's ok it can still be salvaged, watch.......

hey, that's a mighty fine picture of a WWII Finnish pilot you've got yourself there..........


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## cheddar cheese (May 26, 2005)

Much better...






8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 26, 2005)

i have a sudden urge to laugh.........


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## cheddar cheese (May 26, 2005)

But look at all the B-29's I wasted with one... (You can just see the B-239..lol)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 26, 2005)

well now you're proved it was a great plane capable of downging tons of B-29s, well done


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## cheddar cheese (May 26, 2005)

Go me!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 26, 2005)

What game are you guys playing, and how do you save the screen shot like that?


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## cheddar cheese (May 26, 2005)

Il2 FB/AEP/PF. Just press print screen whilst playing


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 26, 2005)

Ah neat did not know you could do that.


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## mosquitoman (May 26, 2005)

I didn't think it would have the armament needed to take one of those monsters down


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## cheddar cheese (May 26, 2005)

It doesnt - I was bored, so for that run I switched Realistic Gunnery "Off", making the rounds 3 times more explosive  One short burst and theyre down!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 27, 2005)

Thats one way to do it.


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## Monkeysee1 (Aug 11, 2005)

The Polish fighters who flew with the Allies in England were the most dangerous.


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## Smokey (Aug 12, 2005)

Dangerous pilots are found everywhere , however those who have been raised to be religious extremists (many in Japanese air force) or Nazi extremists (many in Luftwaffe) would result in a greater number of dangerous pilots in those air forces.
Combine a good extremist pilot with a good aircraft and


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## cheddar cheese (Aug 12, 2005)

Monkeysee1 said:


> The Polish fighters who flew with the Allies in England were the most dangerous.



You're right, they were vicious! But Poland isnt an axis nation


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 12, 2005)

Id personally go with the German pilots for the Axis. I think the kills speak for themselves.


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## cheddar cheese (Aug 12, 2005)

I go with the Finns.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 12, 2005)

The Finns definatly did a lot with what they had. Just look at the way they fought the Russians.


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## Monkeysee1 (Aug 13, 2005)

Oops... Yeah, Poles weren't Axis, I forgot this thread was Axis only. Sorry. I heard someone say that extremist religious people would make the most dangerous pilots. Well then that depends on what you mean by dangerous? If you consider suicidal dangerous then I think it would go to the Japanese.
But if you mean dangerous as in skilled/ trained killers then I think you have to go with the Germans (axis and allied) up to about 1942 they had a better trained force overall.
So what is dangerous? Is it suicidal or skilled? I think you should qualify what is meant be dangerous before you can answer this question.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 13, 2005)

I would have to say the Germans as well.... 

I really dont consider the pilots of WWII to be "Killers".... Most guys werent trying to kill the pilot, just the aircraft... There were quite a few men who flew that still upheld a code conduct....

Remember I said most.......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 13, 2005)

Im with Les on this one.


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## Gnomey (Aug 13, 2005)

Germans definitely - the numbers of 'kills' says it all


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 13, 2005)

That is what I said.


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## Monkeysee1 (Aug 20, 2005)

By the way... breathing pure oxy for a hangover works great. Have done it several times. The problem is, as soon as your off your hangover comes back in force....


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## mosquitoman (Aug 21, 2005)

Could have done with that yesterday morning


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 21, 2005)

yeah i've posted that on here before, apparently if you keep hydrated (with water guys...) it's ok...........


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## Nonskimmer (Aug 21, 2005)

Yeah, but that wastes valuable beer room.


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## plan_D (Aug 21, 2005)

Not if you go into a rock club and mosh all night long. Water with your beer keeps you hydrated while you sweat your life away, it's just a constant cycle - the water goes down the throat and sweats through the skin. Meanwhile, the beer stays in your stomach.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 30, 2005)

I agree when I go to a good rock club and head bang and mosh all night I actually dont even feel the alcohol because I am sweating it out so much.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Jun 7, 2007)

Didn't some US pilots think the Japanese indulged in too many acrobatics?


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## mkloby (Jun 7, 2007)

I never heard that. Aerobatic maneuvers form a good base for ACM, and all US aviators fly fundamental aerobatics. For example, an Immelman is an extremely quick maneuver to reverse your heading 180* while climbing vertically... while a Split-S does the same while descending.


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## Trautloft (Jul 27, 2007)

hi. let me mention one thing. i red many comments about bushido and 'fanatic,crazy,brainwashed,stupid'.
Calling japanese pilots such names,who sacrificed themself without thinkin about a second,is a bit wrong. it sounds a bit odd, but im very interested in bushido since i do japanese martial arts like jiu-jitsu and i did my researches about that.
Centuries of isolation,an extremely high standard of culture involving discipline. Yes,we can compare the japanese pilots of ww2 to modern samurais. no retreat,no questions,only honour to die for the emperor (hirohito at that time) and the imperium. i wouldnt call it brainwashed.it was their faith,their destiny,their religion. the sinto religion, and the way of the warrior,bushido been the basics of their mind. in our culture we called em crazy,kamikaze, baka, suicidal. but since we cannot compare the western and japanese culture that easy, i would tend to consider the past of japan carefully.

to the topic:' most dangerous'..hmm..dangerous is different of fearsome or cruel. so the germans and finns been the most accurate,high-scoring, well trained opponents for the allies in my opinion.


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## The Basket (Jul 27, 2007)

Well I aint got nothing against the Japanese. Hell, I even buy their motorbikes.

But as far as world war II goes, screw 'em. What they did was beyond warfare...beyond evil. If you think you can excuse behaviour by saying that we don't understand them then I don't want to.

Martial arts is about self defence, not the beheading of British POWs with a sword. I do tae kwan do and that's Korean. haha.

I was once in the military and duty didn't include rape or murder.

Why do you think the Jerries surrendered to the Brits and Yanks in droves? even risked their lives to escape the Russkies. Why did commonwealth troops fight on against the Japs rather than surrender?

Whatever happened in WW2, the British, Americans and Commenwealth troops and nations kept their humanity in a dirty business. Very few Russians, Germans or Japs could say the same.


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## Marcel (Jul 27, 2007)

The Basket said:


> Whatever happened in WW2, the British, Americans and Commenwealth troops and nations kept their humanity in a dirty business. Very few Russians, Germans or Japs could say the same.



Hmmm many allied soldiers did nasty things as well, heat of the battle that sort of things. In a war, emotions get you... I think that most of the Wehrmacht soldiers were decent people, only fighting on the wrong site from my point of view, but not more evil then allied soldiers. The nazi's... well that's a different story....


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## Hunter368 (Jul 27, 2007)

Marcel said:


> Hmmm many allied soldiers did nasty things as well, heat of the battle that sort of things. In a war, emotions get you... I think that most of the Wehrmacht soldiers were decent people, only fighting on the wrong site from my point of view, but not more evil then allied soldiers. The nazi's... well that's a different story....



100% agree, most German soldiers never even knew what was going on in their homeland behind those gates in those camps.


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## Trautloft (Jul 27, 2007)

well,i dont wanna discuss allied warcrimes here. sure,not to compare,but they werent new-born sheeps either.like who invented the conc.camps? the british .the a-bombs only to demonstrate it to the soviets.the secret of pearl harbour.
the knowledge about the death camps,but not bombing the railways.everything ,including children and women,hunting-strafing them for fun,but not these railways.

about rape and murder,the victors did it ,all the time.but the victorious never gets punished.offtopic,sorry. it was a dirty war,and there are brave men who fought like knights on both sides,and also murders and ill minded.


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## Hunter368 (Jul 27, 2007)

Lets keep this on subject before this turns into a huge can of worms. Lets get back to talking about pilots. (old thread or not)


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## Trautloft (Jul 27, 2007)

agreed.
id like to hear your opinions.much depend of the aircraft flown.
a I-16 Rata with a skilled pilot could be indeed dangerous, and a la-7 flown by a noobie,not.


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## Konigstiger205 (Jul 27, 2007)

True...a skilled pilot can do a lot more damage with a inferior aircraft than a noob with a more lets say "modern aircraft".And to be honest my country had its share of rather dangerous pilots.And we used I.A.R. 80 and 81 and those weren't so great.Anyway the Finns were definitely dangerous pilots.But in the end a dangerous pilot doesn't have to ram his plane into the enemy but rather to know his plane and to make the best of it.


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## Trautloft (Jul 27, 2007)

i heard the IAR 80 ,compared to Bf-109E (or F,im not sure),flown by a german major, was only slightly inferior in some aspects to the Messer. The I.A.Rs shot down a high number of soviet a/c,and later even 4engined usaaf bombers,even lightnings.
Its based on polish PZL planes,which i particulary like id like to see a test involving the Fiat CR.42, The Gladiator ,the I-153 and the PZL.P.11.
i know the perfomances,armament etc. but how was the handling?


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## Watanbe (Jul 28, 2007)

I dont think you can say the Japanese were more dangerous because they were suicidal or fanatical. Think of it this way, say your in a club or pub and a guy tries to fight you.

Would your rather fight the guy who is crazy angry and brash, or would you rather fight the calm, cool, calculated and skilled fighter who is analysing tactics and thinking about the fight. 

Of course a bit of both is preferrable and I think that the Germans had that.


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## Konigstiger205 (Jul 28, 2007)

The IAR-80

Wingspan 10.52 m
Length 8.9 m
Height 3.6 m
Weight (empty) 2045 kg
Weight (loaded) 2483 kg
Maximum speed at 5000 m 485 km/h
Climbs to 5000 m 5 min. 27 sec.
Maximum operational ceiling 10500 m
Range 760 km
Engine IAR 14K IVc32 1000A 1000 HP
Machine-guns 4x7.92 mm
Serial numbers 1-50


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## SoD Stitch (Aug 4, 2007)

Gotta got with the Germans; between their martial upbringing (for the most part), their technical expertise, and their experience, they'd be hard to beat in a 1 v 1 situation. Made a lot of technical innovations, too, like the _Rotte_ and _Schwarm_ tactics of four aircraft providing mutual support for each other. By the end of the War, most of the air forces of the world had adopted German flying tactics (though not, obviously, their strategy).


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## Soren (Aug 4, 2007)

Germany did, and you'll only have to look at the scores to find that out.

The experienced IJN pilots were some very tough skilled pilots as-well though.


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## Brain32 (Aug 7, 2007)

Don't forget Croats. Very few pilots and many of them aces


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 7, 2007)

Surely good pilots but I would not say they were the best. Honorable Mention maybe.

My votes would go for:

1. Germany
2. Finnland
3. Japan
4. Italy
5. Romania


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## Marcel (Aug 7, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Surely good pilots but I would not say they were the best. Honorable Mention maybe.
> 
> My votes would go for:
> 
> ...



Not to challenge you, but just from genuine interest: Why Italy on 4?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 7, 2007)

There were many very good Italian pilots but I dont think the Italian Airforce was able to really prove itself nor were her pilots.


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## Trautloft (Aug 7, 2007)

mine is
1.germany
2.finland
3. japan
4. hungary
5. bulgaria (from the view of an allied pilot...how is it if sum1's ramming your bomber?


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## Brain32 (Aug 7, 2007)

> Surely good pilots but I would not say they were the best. Honorable Mention maybe.


Yes I can't say my guys were the best, but they definitely deserve the mention, we had almost as much aces as Italy did and our top scoring aces made more aerial victories then their did. And all that with one fact in mind - there was only ONE Croatian squadron, the 15.Jg52
Considering the numbers involved and achievements made, I decided to atleast mention them


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## ToughOmbre (Aug 7, 2007)

My two bits...

Early in the war, Germany, Japan.

Later on, none were dangerous, except for the survivors, Hartmann, Galland, Rall, Sakai etc.

The rotation of American combat veterans back to train new pilots gave the US an overwhelming advantage later in the war. The great/dangerous German and Japanese pilots flew till they were killed. The lack of aviation gas alone limited new pilot training.


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## SoD Stitch (Aug 8, 2007)

ToughOmbre said:


> My two bits...
> 
> Early in the war, Germany, Japan.
> 
> Later on, none were dangerous, except for the survivors, Hartmann, Galland, Rall, Sakai etc.



By the end of the War, particularly on the Axis side, what you ended up with were pilots that were either really good, or really new; as mentioned above, five years of constant war weeded out the pilots that either couldn't or wouldn't learn (they got killed, basically), and what was left were only the best (Hartmann, Barkhorn, Rall, Nowotny, Steinhoff, etc.), who had learned their lessons well, or the other 90% of the German pilots, who were brand-new and almost worthless, except as cannon fodder for the ever-increasing numbers of Allied fighters.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 8, 2007)

ToughOmbre said:


> My two bits...
> 
> Early in the war, Germany, Japan.
> 
> ...



You are very mistaken my friend. There were plenty of good German pilots left even until the war was over. 

I am sure that if you ask any allied pilot flying in 1944 and 1945 they will tell you than any opponant was very dangerous.


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## ToughOmbre (Aug 8, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> You are very mistaken my friend. There were plenty of good German pilots left even until the war was over.
> 
> I am sure that if you ask any allied pilot flying in 1944 and 1945 they will tell you than any opponant was very dangerous.



I probably should have made myself clearer. What I meant was that early in the war *ALL* of the German and Japanese pilots were well trained, excellent, dangerous. As the war progressed the newer Axis pilots did not get the same level of training/hours that the veteran pilots received. I agree that there were many good pilots left, many more than I named in my post, at the end of the war (German, not so much Japanese). But there was also a higher percentage of under-trained replacements that did not last long when they went up against the well-trained American replacements.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 8, 2007)

Yes in that respect you are correct.


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## ToughOmbre (Aug 9, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Yes in that respect you are correct.



And here's a tribute to my two favorite fighter pilots, hanging on my living room wall (much to the chagrin of my wife). _*Brillanten am Himmel (Diamonds in the Sky)*_ by Heinz Krebs with the original sigs of Hartmann and Galland.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 9, 2007)

That is very nice. I would love to have that as well.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Aug 11, 2007)

Was that a specific mission the artist drew of the two Aces?


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## ToughOmbre (Aug 11, 2007)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> Was that a specific mission the artist drew of the two Aces?



Not a specific mission, but a great representation of two of only 27 men (ten pilots) to be awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds (Oberst Hans-Ulrich Rudel was the only recipient of the *Golden* Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds).

Best part is having Hartmann's and Galland's original signitures. 

TO


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Aug 11, 2007)

Pretty cool.


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## TenGunTerror (Jun 30, 2009)

The Indian foot soldiers defending Kong Kong were absolutely terrifying more than any other soldier...if only they had planes... Otherwise it would be the Russians! They were absolutely fearless and would ram opponents with the propellor when the ammo ran dry. Plus they were defending the dreaded Motherland.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 1, 2009)

TenGunTerror said:


> The Indian foot soldiers defending Kong Kong were absolutely terrifying more than any other soldier...if only they had planes... Otherwise it would be the Russians! They were absolutely fearless and would ram opponents with the propellor when the ammo ran dry. Plus they were defending the dreaded Motherland.



The Russians were not Axis pilots...

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## diddyriddick (Jul 1, 2009)

I'm gonna go out on a limb here. Anybody willing to crash their plane into their enemy is the most dangerous pilot, IMHO. Kamikaze.


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 1, 2009)

Yea I have to agree with you on this one.


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## Soren (Jul 1, 2009)

Hmm... problem is that a Kamikaze pilot isn't necessarily a skilled pilot. 

Skilled pilots who operate their a/c well are the most dangerous to their foes, pure and simple. You can't win a war with Kamikazes.


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## TenGunTerror (Jul 1, 2009)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The Russians were not Axis pilots...


I feel really dumb not reading the title correctly, my bad


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 2, 2009)

Its alright, easy mistake...


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## David Fred (Jul 12, 2018)

Chiron said:


> I heard someone said that US pilots, who participate in both European and Pacific theatures, believed Japanese were the most fearsome opponents in comparison with their German counterparts.



I’d have to say the Soviets. Early in the war, with obsolete aircraft, they fought on, and frewuenyl rammed opponents


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## XBe02Drvr (Jul 14, 2018)

David Fred said:


> I’d have to say the Soviets. Early in the war, with obsolete aircraft, they fought on, and frewuenyl rammed opponents


Yes, but were they AXIS pilots?? I suppose you could claim they were briefly, when they co-operated with Hitler in deconstructing Poland.
Cheers,
Wes


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## MIflyer (Jul 14, 2018)

A famous US WWII fighter leader was fond of saying, "A second Lieutenant with a map is the most dangerous thing in the world."

So the answer would be: all countries that handed maps to Second Lt's.

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## swampyankee (Jul 14, 2018)

Soren said:


> Hmm... problem is that a Kamikaze pilot isn't necessarily a skilled pilot.
> 
> Skilled pilots who operate their a/c well are the most dangerous to their foes, pure and simple. You can't win a war with Kamikazes.



Even some of the aces weren't great pilots, but great tacticians and great shots.

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## GregP (Jul 14, 2018)

It wasn't lack of fuel alone that prevented training. There was also lack of aircraft, lack of propellers, and most important, lack of instructors, who were put into cockpits to fight. A few escaped combat, particularly the pilots who flew for the factories, but many were conscripted to fight as attrition took its toll.

Much the same in Japan, who always had fewer aircraft than anyone else. They lost much of their cadre of well-trained pilots (but not all, by any means) by late 1943, and soldiered on with whatever they could train and throw out there.

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## drgondog (Jul 14, 2018)

LW pilots were in constant engagement from 1939 through mid 1945 against the most dangerous pilots of at least 10 different nations, often outnumbered, yet carved out great numbers of Allied crews during day and night - average skill levels dropped through attrition, but many Experten survived the war.

The Japanese and Finns and Italians had some great pilots but Collectively they were no match for LW.

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## swampyankee (Jul 14, 2018)

Hunter368 said:


> 100% agree, most German soldiers never even knew what was going on in their homeland behind those gates in those camps.




I'm not sure that's true; German troops were notorious for reprisals against any kind of resistance, like killing everybody in a village suspected of harboring resistance fighters, although that's a bit of a different story. German Army personnel on occupation duty would certainly know about rounding up Jews, Rom, and others and the associated pillaging. Japanese troops in China may well have been worse.

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## David Fred (Jul 14, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Yes, but were they AXIS pilots?? I suppose you could claim they were briefly, when they co-operated with Hitler in deconstructing Poland.
> Cheers,
> Wes


 You’re right. I’m brain dead. But given the total lack of cooperation in ANY meaningful way between Japan and Germany, was there even such a thing as an “Axis” pilot, or Japanese and German pilots, who just happened to have common enemies, but never common battles?


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## XBe02Drvr (Jul 14, 2018)

David Fred said:


> You’re right. I’m brain dead. But given the total lack of cooperation in ANY meaningful way between Japan and Germany, was there even such a thing as an “Axis” pilot, or Japanese and German pilots, who just happened to have common enemies, but never common battles?


AXIS was their call, not mine or yours. Anyone who declares himself a Communist, a Nazi, a Samurai, a Jihadist, a white supremacist, or whatever, AND declares himself my enemy, I'm willing to take at face value, shoot first and ask questions later! Does it matter whether he deserves the title he claimed when you're leaking blood all over the tarmac and your vision's going dark?
Cheers,
Wes

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