# Crashed Aircraft of WW2



## Marcel (Oct 28, 2014)

There are aircraft wrecks from WW2 everywhere here in the Netherlands. Many have been found, but an estimated number of 1000 wrecks are still somewhere burried u der the soil. Occasionally some pop up.

Last week I was driving with my wife over the dyke of the river Lek when I suddenly saw a Merlin engine on the side of the road. It's been left there as a memorial of a Halifax that crashed in the river in 1943. 






Today I found out that there is a possible crash site on the land of the company I work for. It's supposed to be a "small aircraft, possibly a fighter". Nationality is not known. Research with groundradar indicated an area of 15x15 meters with possible wreckage at 4 meter below ground. Now we'll have to persuade our employer to permit digging on the spot. Pretty exiting. 

On saturday I am planning to visit an excavation site of a Lancaster, near by. It was shot and hit by a nightfighter over Tiel and crashed at Werkendam, on the other side of the river from me. Last week the found the last missing crewmember, the tailgunner, still strapped in his place. Needless to say he will finally get a proper burial. I'll try to give a full report of my visit next week.

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## Thorlifter (Oct 28, 2014)

I'm looking forward to what you can find out next week.


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## Airframes (Oct 28, 2014)

Great stuff Marcel. Looking forward to further up-dates.


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Oct 28, 2014)

Great thread Marcel! Looking forward to what you find out to!


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## Gnomey (Oct 28, 2014)

Good stuff Marcel! Looking forward to further updates.


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## Capt. Vick (Oct 28, 2014)

Be careful Marcel.


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## Wayne Little (Oct 29, 2014)

Bring it on!


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## Marcel (Oct 29, 2014)

Shifting through my photo's, I found this one, a Bristal Pegasus engine from a Handley Page Hampden bomber, which was found in the Waddenzee. It's on display in the vlillage square on the little island of Vlieland. And yes, that's me looking smug next to it.

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## Gnomey (Oct 30, 2014)

Cool shot!


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## GrauGeist (Nov 1, 2014)

Regarding the crash site at your work, any idea what the nationality of the aircraft might be:
German - Allied?

I know at my work (well, where I used to work before the wreck), our shop was built over the southern edge of a runway of a former airstrip...but no artifacts or anything cool laying around.


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## Marcel (Nov 1, 2014)

GrauGeist said:


> Regarding the crash site at your work, any idea what the nationality of the aircraft might be:
> German - Allied?
> 
> I know at my work (well, where I used to work before the wreck), our shop was built over the southern edge of a runway of a former airstrip...but no artifacts or anything cool laying around.



No, it's unknown. Not much is known, apart from the fact that it must have been a rather small aircraft. It stayed visible for some time, the tail section sticking out. This tail is supposedly taken by an old-iron trader and stored in his shop. There are reports that it was still there after the war. In Januari this year, the Airforce got permission to scan the ground with groundradar. They found a spot, 15 by 15 meters, almost exactly where they expected it. Also small metal fragments were found in the soil, which could be from the aircraft.

I requested more info from the guys who are investigating it. I would like to help them to get permission from my company to do research at the spot. We formed a group of 3 enthousiasts, willing to promote this within the company.


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## Marcel (Nov 1, 2014)

Okay, I visited the excavation of the Lancaster near Werkendam. It's about 10 km east of the City of Dordrecht.

First a short background:
On the night of 06-21-1944 to 06-22-1944, Lancaster mk.3 LM508 (SR-P) of 101 squadron joins an operation to the synthetic oli factory of Wesseling. On the way there, one of the engines is hit by FLAK, but they still press on and bomb Wesseling. On the way back, over Tiel, The Netherlands, they are attacked by a nightfighter, flown by lt Hans Schaeffer.. Missing one engine, the heavy lancaster is a sitting duck and the fuel tank is hit. The tailgunner sgt. John Keogh is also hit fatally in his turret and bomb-aimer sgt. Thomas Duff is heavily wounded. The crew decide to bail out. Duff dies later of his wounds. He is buried in the churchyard in the village. Keogh stays in the aircraft and was never recovered. The pilot, Pilot Officer Hingley breaks his back when landing against a concrete bridge. All remaining crew are captured. The bomber crashes south of Werkendam. Burning parts fall on a farmhouse, which catches fire. Luckily the whol family escapes unscaled. 
The Lancaster is been excavated because it is in a spot where a buildingsite is planned.

I will continue later with pictures of found debris. but first of all, sgt John Keogh was found last week, still strapped in his tail turret. According one of the excavators, it was a 100% score, meaning that the found all of the body. He's been taken toe Soesterberg, where he will be properly identified and than properly buried with honour. May he rest in peace


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## Marcel (Nov 1, 2014)

Okay, some pictures.
First the place where the lanc was found. The metal 'dams' are for keeping out the groundwater. It is on the edge of the Biesbosch, a very wet area, between several large rivers. The aircraft was pointed towards the fence you see here. This means it must have made a turn as it was facing east, pointing in the direction it had come from. The depth was about 6 meters (18 ft), but at places debris was found only 40 cm (3.3 ft) deep. They have been filling the hole again, so it is not so deep anymore.





Where the little flag is, in the middle of the photo, is the place where John Keogh was found. He was still surrounded by a lot of live ammunition. Apparently he hadn't fired his gun much. The ammo has been taken to be destroyed.





The found containers full of debris, mainly plating. I tried to take a photo of it.


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## fubar57 (Nov 1, 2014)




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## Marcel (Nov 1, 2014)

Frame number of this lanc:





Tire of the tail-wheel:





Dinghy, the sign says: "extendible mast for lifeboat:





Fire extinguishers and oxygen tanks, in the front, an escape axe. Somewhere in the middle is a first aid kit. Also portable tanks can be seen.





The toilet. Does anyone know where this was located in the aircraft?


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## GrauGeist (Nov 1, 2014)

Marcel, to the best of my knowledge, the Elsan sat in the after-section of the Lancaster, near the tail-gunner's position. Perhaps one of the guys here who is better versed with the Lanc can give better details.

I also seem to recall hearing somewhere, that the bomber crew would sometimes jettison the contents of the Elsan along with their bombload when they were over their target.


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## fubar57 (Nov 1, 2014)

I believe you're right Dave. I've got a book showing it located in the middle of the aisle, right in front of the tailplane spar.

Geo


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## Marcel (Nov 2, 2014)

Should have posted this thread in the aviation section as it all fits in there. Ah well....

Want to finish the part about the lancaster excavation near my house.
Pictures of the engines.


























Supercharger:





Parachute of sgt Keogh. Sadly not used.


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## Gnomey (Nov 2, 2014)

Interesting stuff Marcel!


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## Marcel (Nov 8, 2014)

Talked to the guy who found out about the aircraft at my work. He's willing to share the data he has. We're planning on writing an article in the company's magazine. We would like them to authorise a small excavation, so we could identify the aircraft. The area which gives a good signal is 15 by 6 meters. It's possible to make a narrow hole at a specific spot to retrieve some material, hopefully with some serial numbers on it. At least we could identify what aircraft it is. Up until now, no records have been found about a lost single engined aircraft at that spot in that timeframe. Any suggestions are welcome. When I know more, I'll start a thread about it in the aviations section.


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## stona (Nov 8, 2014)

Here's the position of the Elsan, much as described by the gentlemen above.







Only ever used as a last resort 

Cheers

Steve


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## Marcel (Nov 8, 2014)

Thanks, I found it on my own drawings as well  It was described that while over the target, the content of the Elsan was sometimes added to the released bomb load. Quite effective I think


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## bobbysocks (Nov 11, 2014)

lol...i have one of those extendable masts for a dingy! of all the things my dad brought home i could never figure out why he wanted that. i use it for various things at my summer camp...still works fine.


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## Marcel (Dec 9, 2014)

Looks like my company is not interested to publish an article. 
They say they don't want to have archeologists to dig for it as it will damage the structure off the soil (we're a vegetable seed company). Thus they also don't want to give any attention to it in the company magazine as they want to keep it secret. 
I told them that as it had been on the newspaper, there 'secret' was already in the open and that ignoring the fact would not make it go away. This in more friendlier words of course.


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## Capt. Vick (Dec 9, 2014)

That sucks


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## GrauGeist (Dec 9, 2014)

Unfortunately, not everybody shares our passion for aircraft history...


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## Airframes (Dec 9, 2014)

A typical capitalist-type reaction. As for damaging the soil, the oils, metals, salts and other nasty materials of the wreck are probably doing more damage to the soil, as they degrade and leech into the sub-soil.

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## Marcel (Dec 9, 2014)

Yup, that's what I thought. Unfortunately I cannot say that. If I want to get though, I'll have to use all my diplomatic skills.

But it's stupid that they want to keep it quiet as it has already been in the newspaper and the local government is planning on putting an info-sign at the location. Keeping it silent will not take the problem away.


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## herman1rg (Dec 9, 2014)

I agree with Terry


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## DBII (Dec 9, 2014)

Good thread.

DBII


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## GrauGeist (Dec 9, 2014)

Perhaps not so much of a "capitalist" thing as it is the fear of losing control of the area to be excavated, especially if something significant were found?

If they don't permit any digging, then things remain "status quo" and perhaps hope that by ignoring what may be under there will make it go away.


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## bobbysocks (Dec 9, 2014)

secretly solicit someone outside of the company to start a petition and make some noise to the newspapers that this site should be a monument....


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## Gnomey (Dec 9, 2014)

That sucks Marcel.


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## Marcel (Dec 11, 2014)

You know, I didn't ask them to allow the excavation, all I wanted is write an article about this young, unknown airman that died on our soil. I think it is a shame that they don't want to cooperate.

They found a new excuse for me. On my last email they answered that "this subject is not specific for the company and the magazine is meant for the communication in the company. We have plenty more better stories to tell which would interest people more than this and there is at the moment no room to place the article."


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## GrauGeist (Dec 11, 2014)

This part of the statement: _"...We have plenty more better stories to tell which would interest people more than this..."_ is really effed up.


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## Marcel (Dec 11, 2014)

Yup, didn't want to loose my temper, so didn't answer back, yet.


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