# Torpedo Boats



## renrich (Jun 24, 2009)

I was reflecting on how the destroyer got it's name while posting in the best destroyer thread and thought as a follow on we could discuss which torpedo boat deployed by the different navies in WW2 was the all around best. Originally DDs were known as Torpedo Boat Destroyers, which with the development of torpedoes, gave heavy ship commanders nightmares. The torpedo boats in WW2 played many roles and their crews were often a villainous lot. Have at it!


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 24, 2009)

For me it would be a toss up between Germans S-Boats and the US Higgins. I'll go with the S-Boats.


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## Thorlifter (Jun 24, 2009)

I agree with VB and will go with the S-Boat. Bigger, more rugged, and better suited for duty in the open sea.


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## parsifal (Jun 24, 2009)

There are really two classes of torpedo boats. There are what the English refer to as MTBs, the American PT Boats, the italians call them MAS Boats, and the Germans S-Boats (or E-Boats). These are small, generally less than 120 tons in size, often with planing hulls and speeds in excess of 40 knots

Then ther are a larger class of "Torpedo Boat" generally under 600 T (to get around treaty limits). These were ocean going vessels and usually carried a small surface armment (or arounfd 4in calibre) some AA, ASW and torpedoes. Examples of this type of craft might include Hunt Class (UK), Ciclone (Italy) Mowe (Germany) Uragan (SU), and Matsu (Japan). 

The US never really fielded this type of craft, however a variqant of the "Torpedo Boat" concept can be found in the numerous Destroyer Escorts fielded by the combatants. These were generally slower craft, but longer ranged with greater emphasis paid to Anti-Submarine capability.

So for me, having considered their various roles I would consider the best in each ategory to be

"PT" Boats: German "S" Boats
Torpedo Boats: Japanese "Matsu" Class
Destroyer Escort: USN "Rudderow" Class


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## Stitch (Jun 25, 2009)

I have to go with the German S-boots, also; even some of the vets who served on US _Elco_-class PT boats _wish_ they'd had boats like the S-boots. They may have been bigger than the _Vosper_-class and _Elco_-class boats, but they were considerably faster _and_ more heavily armed.


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## renrich (Jun 26, 2009)

I have a friend who served in PT Boats in WW2. He served on a Huckins type boat and indicated that the Huckins was finished out better than the other types because Huckins was a yacht builder before the war. He was stationed at Midway but this was after June, 1942.


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## trackend (Jun 26, 2009)

My old man was RN in small craft and had a few mates on MTB's they hated having to go head to head with E-Boats as they were very much out gunned. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but off the top of my head I believe The US PT boats basic design (i think designated PT 8 or 9) came from a British designer Hubert or was it Herbert, Pain who designed and raced power boats. Of the various navies vessels i would pick the E Boat not that they had a much higher top speed but that they could do it in rougher seas so it gave them a huge advantage plus they had a pretty impressive array of weaponry for such a small boat
The hard chine of the PT and MTB hulls plained well but gave a much rougher ride in poor sea states.


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## delcyros (Jun 26, 2009)

Since my grandfather served on e-boats, my vote is biased.
Back to the larger torpedoboats, I would vote for the dutch buildt FTB 40 class. It´s larger and faster (35 kts!!!) than the german build FTB 39 class ships. I don´t rate the US DE´s that high, they are to slow (21 to 26 kts).


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## BombTaxi (Jun 26, 2009)

I don't think DEs can really be discussed in the same terms as the large TBs built by the Germans, The DE was, as the name implies, intended for a defensive role from the outset, with convoys and slower surface forces like CVEs, hence the low speed. The German TBs were, in effect, small destroyers, with speed and firepower to match. 

Thinking about it, the DEs seem to be a bit mis-named. To my mind, they are much more like large corvettes or frigates than small destroyers.


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## delcyros (Jun 26, 2009)

After ww2, all US DE´s were reclassified as frigates, so You really have a point with it...


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## Juha (Jun 26, 2009)

No oppinion on which was the best torpedo boat class but the best MTB were IMHO the later S-boats. Not that they were much better armed than later Vospers when those got 20mm cannon, typical gun armament for S-boat in Autumn 43 was 2*20mm and 2*MG34, it was neither much faster but a few experimental boats which achieved 45 knots they were 39-42knts boats.
But like Trackend noted they worked much better on rough sea than hard-chine Allied boats. And their powerful diesel engines made them less vulnerable. I liked especially those with armoured cabin a la S100.

Juha


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## Glider (Jun 26, 2009)

Generally speaking I think its fair to say that the best torpedo boat design was the S Boat, however they were not always the best equipped. Radar was rare on these vessels and was often second hand modified airborne interception radar taken off nightfighters as they became outdated.
From 1942 onwards they started to lose their advantage of firepower as the RN introduced the 6pd onto their MTB's and towards the end of the war the USN started to introduce a quad 20mm mounting nicknamed if I recall the lightning.

That said, overall the S Boat has the nod as they had a clear advantage in the first 2 -3 years of the war when the gap started to close. 

I would give the Fairmile D class known as the Dog Boats a close second. They were a fair bit slower than most but were good sea boats sometimes operating as far away as off the coast of Norway and were very heavily armed.


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## renrich (Jun 26, 2009)

The DEs( destroyer escorts) were designed as escorts and I don't believe they could be considered as torpedo boats or MTBs. They were much larger and many were armed with no torpedos. The USN MTBs were rated at 40 knots but I doubt seriously that they could reach those speeds except in a perfectly calm sea.


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## Glider (Jun 26, 2009)

I admit to getting confused and was thinking about Motor Torpedo Boats such as the S Class and PT boats as opposed to Torpedo Boats which tended to be used by the German, Italian and French navies.
Torpedo Boats were often lightly armed with guns normally 1 or 2 4in and a heavy torpedo load of around 6 x TT on a displacement of approx 650 tons and a max speed of 30+ knots.

Escorts such as the USN Destroyer Escorts, RN Hunt class and other sloops, Frigates etc were armed for defending convoys and had good A/S and AA capabilities at the expense of speed which tended to be in the 20-25 Kts band. They may or may not have a set of torpedo tube but RN ones that did ,didn't use them for torpedo's, they fired a particually large depth charge out of the tube.

Is the objective to discuss MTB's or Torpedo Boats?


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## Watanbe (Jun 29, 2009)

From what I have read and heard from Veterans the E-Boats were the most fearsome opponents. They were besides the U-Boats in the most part the most important vessels in the German Navy. They were to scared to use their capital ships in open combat and the RN kept close watch of them and held strict blockades. The E-Boats saw the most combat, were the fastest thing in the Atlantic and were able to escape danger, they were excellent vessels and weren't restricted to coastal work like many of the other Torpedo boats.


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## renrich (Aug 24, 2009)

I am just finishing a memoir by a fellow that served on MTBs in WW2 in 1944, 45 in the PTO. He commanded a PT Boat squadron, twelve boats in a squadron. They were the ELCO-Higgins type, 80 feet long, 60 tons, three 1500 HP Packards, carried 3000 gallons of gasoline and could make 40-50 MPH. With mufflers closed at ten knots they were very quiet. The crew was two officers and twelve EM and get this! The armament was one 37MM and two 20mms on the bow, the two twin mount 50BMGs amidships, a 40 MM on the stern, two depth charges and four 21 inch torpedoes. Wow, I never knew they carried that much armament. Wonder where they stowed all the ammo?


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## Glider (Aug 24, 2009)

The PT boats were at this stage normally used for shore bombardment and tackling barges imune to torpedo's hence the heavy guns. The 37mm normally came from the P39.


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## renrich (Aug 25, 2009)

Glider, you are exactly right as that type of action was what the author described. There was a photo of a 37 MM mounted on the bow of a PTB and it had a weird looking circular magazine perhaps two to three feet in diameter which the gunner peered through when sighting the gun. Kind of like a halo sitting on edge. That armament was massive for a boat that size. I am surprised that it was practical.


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## Glider (Aug 25, 2009)

These little boats could carry a quite a load. In 1944/5 it was quite common for a British MTB to carry a semi automatic 6pd derived from the one carried on the Mossie, a twin 20mm various mgs plus torpedo's and the larger Dog boats could carry 2 x 6pd, 4 x 20mm plus the torpedo's.
It has to be said that when carrying all these guns the torps were normally limited to two for obvious reasons. The daddy of them all were the British steam gunboats which ended the war with 1 x 3in, 2 x 6pd, 6 x 20mm and 2 x 21in TT.


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## Milosh (Aug 25, 2009)

Two books I recommend on Allied boats are:







Synopsis: This is the first in a series that covers all Allied MTB's, PT boats, motor gunboats, launches and submarine chasers used in World War II. Each vessel is described in full and accompanied by photographs, line illustrations and plans.






Synopsis: This second of three volumes covers 16 Vosper MTB designs, and the US 70-foot, 77-foot and 80-foot ELCO designs. US-built Vosper designs supplied under lease-lend are also covered, while weapons systems and machinery are dealt with in detail. 

No sign of the 3rd volume, yet.


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## Glider (Aug 25, 2009)

My Christmas list just keeps on getting bigger.


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## renrich (Aug 25, 2009)

Glider, the six pounder is equivalent to a 57 MM roughly, correct?


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## Shortround6 (Aug 25, 2009)

Yes. the 6pdr is a 57mm. Many were mounted on a power operated mounting and the magazine held 6 rounds with one in the chamber. I believe it could fire one round every 1 1/2 seconds.


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## parsifal (Aug 25, 2009)

It was the Molins gun, and was fitted to the Mosquito Mk XIII. 

This is a video first posted by Charles Bronson on another thread. The gun was an awesome adjunct to the rocket firing Mosquitoes, particulalry devastaing to German U-Boats. Coastal Command also sank approximately 1 million tons of German shipping, to which should be added approximately 250000 tons from the light forces, and another 800000 tons or so from mines dropped by Bomber Command into the baltic and off the coast of Norway.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ-a8U1QWUw_


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## renrich (Aug 26, 2009)

I remember that the six pounder was a deadly anti tank gun when first used in NA.


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## Glider (Aug 26, 2009)

renrich said:


> I remember that the six pounder was a deadly anti tank gun when first used in NA.



In the MTB's they only fired a 6pd HE shell which would do a lot of damage to a wooden fast patrol boat.


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## Erich (Aug 26, 2009)

ah if only the S-Boot arm would of been so fully equipped on even terms/Allies, this would then have been quite interesting plus without any air support for both sides to even up things a bit.....


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## Glider (Aug 26, 2009)

Erich said:


> ah if only the S-Boot arm would of been so fully equipped on even terms/Allies, this would then have been quite interesting plus without any air support for both sides to even up things a bit.....



As with the Allied forces the German S boats increased their weapons. There were plans to equip them with 6 x 30mm but I don't think this was implmented. The most that I have heard of was 1 x 37 or 40mm and 6 x 20mm, but the heaviest that I have seen was 1 x 20mm in the bow, 1 x 37mm amidships and a triple 20mm at the stern.

This is by no means definitive and if anyone has more information I would appreciate it.

One interesting point is that the Germans had an armoured bridge which would protect the key areas from MG's which were carried by allied boats. RN boats almost always seemed to carry twin vickers in the bridge wings whatever the official weapons.


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## Erich (Aug 26, 2009)

it could not handle a triple 20mm but was in fact a tri0le 15mm due to the special mounting involved, usal was the set up of a zwilling 2cm with or without shield and two mg 34's canted on each side to this was added either a 3.7 or 4cm bofors or a 2cm Flakvierling. up front the 2cm was usually discarded for more aerodynamics

future 700 plus boots were to have possibly up four 3cm cannon in place but due to the placement and experimentation of the "new" KM cannon they were not equipped as they would of not had the range capable of quick and effective action. there were at least 4 S-Booten with special experimental armored bridges apart from the regular S-36 class and later as standard S-100 Boots


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## Glider (Aug 26, 2009)

Erich said:


> it could not handle a triple 20mm but was in fact a tri0le 15mm due to the special mounting involved, usal was the set up of a zwilling 2cm with or without shield and two mg 34's canted on each side to this was added either a 3.7 or 4cm bofors or a 2cm Flakvierling. up front the 2cm was usually discarded for more aerodynamics
> 
> future 700 plus boots were to have possibly up four 3cm cannon in place but due to the placement and experimentation of the "new" KM cannon they were not equipped as they would of not had the range capable of quick and effective action. there were at least 4 S-Booten with special experimental armored bridges apart from the regular S-36 class and later as standard S-100 Boots



I admit that I thought that a triple 20mm mount was developed for boats in the Med where it was mounted instead of the zwilling 2cm and moved aft. Didn't realise that it was a triple 15mm, thanks for the information.

I also find it dificult to undestand why the bow 20mm was removed for aerodynamic reasons. The gun was just visible as the majority of the gun, crew and ammo was sunk into the foredeck. Topweight is probably as likely a reason for the removal, but even here the Germans normally removed two of the torpedo's.
I have seen pictures of S boats in 1944 with the bow 20mm but it didn't say when in 1944.


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## Lucky13 (Aug 28, 2009)

Couldn't you say that, pound for pound the PT Boats were the heaviest armed fighting ships of the WWII?


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## parsifal (Aug 28, 2009)

I dont think so. A PT Boat might have a torpedo broadside of 2 x 450mm torps, delivering a broadside of 800lbs of TNT to a distance of 3500 yds. Typically an MTB might weigh 100 tons, so thats 8 lbs of warhead per ton of displacement. If you multiple that number by the effective max range (in KMs) of the ordinance you will get some figure, that is a rough reflection of its firepower/Range capabilities per ton of warship. In the case of the MTBs its 28. 

By comparison (and just as a representative sample of its type), a Fubuki class destroyer, which has a displacement of 1750 tons, give or take, and a torpedo broadside of 9 x 24" torps, each with a warhead size of 1720 lb warhead. The torpedo broadside of the japanese Destroyer is 15480 lbs, or 8.84 lbs per ton of warship. However this basic firepower factor is affected by the range of the larger weapon....the range of this weaponary is far superior to the lighter torps carried by the PT boats......the effective range is 16000 yds. The firepower-range per ton of displacement score of the Japanese Destroyer is 141.5 (compared to the score of just 28 for the PT Boat). This means that the DD carries roughly 5 times the firepower per ton of warship to the Light PT Boat, when effective ranges are taken into consideration


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## Lucky13 (Aug 28, 2009)

Was thinking, torpedoes, .50's, 37mm and 40mm. Some of those had quite the arsenal! 8)


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## Milosh (Aug 28, 2009)

renrich said:


> I remember that the six pounder was a deadly anti tank gun when first used in NA.



It was a 6pdr that resulted in the capture of the first Tiger in NA. The 6pdr also disabled another Tiger in the same combat which was recovered by the Germans.


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## Milosh (Aug 28, 2009)

trackend said:


> My old man was RN in small craft and had a few mates on MTB's they hated having to go head to head with E-Boats as they were very much out gunned. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but off the top of my head I believe The US PT boats basic design (i think designated PT 8 or 9) came from a British designer Hubert or was it Herbert, Pain who designed and raced power boats. Of the various navies vessels i would pick the E Boat not that they had a much higher top speed but that they could do it in rougher seas so it gave them a huge advantage plus they had a pretty impressive array of weaponry for such a small boat
> The hard chine of the PT and MTB hulls plained well but gave a much rougher ride in poor sea states.



His name is Hubert Scott-Paine. The book _Fast Boats and Flying Boats_ is his biography. ISBN 7-85455-026-8 If there ever was an eccentric Englishman, S-P is one.

Another book for your Christmas list Glider.

S-P even raced the legendary Gar Wood.


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## Glider (Aug 28, 2009)

Lucky13 said:


> Couldn't you say that, pound for pound the PT Boats were the heaviest armed fighting ships of the WWII?



You could well be right as some carried up to 4 x 21in Torpedo's. They varied considerably the normal selections being one of the following.

4 x 21in Torpedo's e.g. German S Boats, some PT Boats
4 x 18in TT e.g. RN MTB's no 380-395 some others as well
2 x 21 torpedo's loads of types
2 x 18in torpdoes loads of types.


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## renrich (Aug 28, 2009)

According to the memoir I just read, the PTs weighed 60 tons and the author stated that the PTs were, pound for pound, the most heavily armed ships in the USN.


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## Erich (Aug 28, 2009)

Glider

as I mentioned the 2cm front line was removed and mentioned one reason the others are vast, one is also the Flottilles were increasing their dreaded mining duties, so no need for a stinger up front but increase the cannon output from the rear on the return outward from the mining lanes
as increased Allied/Soviet air presence was observed the front inline was rather useless in that mode with the cramped downward quarters of the gunner with free movement of the zwiling and 3.7 and 4c, and quad 2cm crews besides overall visibolity


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## parsifal (Aug 28, 2009)

QUOTE=Glider;550336]You could well be right as some carried up to 4 x 21in Torpedo's. They varied considerably the normal selections being one of the following.

4 x 21in Torpedo's e.g. German S Boats, some PT Boats
4 x 18in TT e.g. RN MTB's no 380-395 some others as well
2 x 21 torpedo's loads of types
2 x 18in torpdoes loads of types.[/QUOTE]


Hi Glider


All S-Boote types were fitted with with two torpedo tubes plus 2 torpedo reloads. the projected 700 series were designed to fire all four fish simultaneously, but weree never built. 

S Boats never carried 4 x 21 in torp tubes . They carried a maximum of two. However, from 1942 they were using a modified G-7e T-2 type toprpedo , which carried a 660 lb warhead, and had a nominal range of 5000m @ 30kts. The torpedo was relatively slow, but was electric (no wake). It was similar to the later war electrtric torps used by the Boats.

A worthwhile note on the German S Boats. The later ones were lightly armoured, and of course were fitted with Diesels. This gave them a reliable and powerful engine. S-Boats also had a low profile, and did not throw up a large telltale wake which was important.

There was massive differences in the British MTB/MGB armament. One of the best was the MTB 601 series, which represented the main types from 1942 to 1944. As an MTB they were fitted initially with 2 x 18, later this was modified to 2 x 21in or 4 x 18in. However the increase in torpedo broadside made these relatively slow boats even slower. Gun armament of the MTB was typically 2 x 6pounders, 2 to 3 x 20mm and 4 x 0.5in or 0.303in.

Italian MAS boats were much smaller and mor lightly armed, but were very fast. They had an excellent engine to work with in the Isotto Fraschini which yielded 2300hp. With two of these, their 30t MAS 551 could exceed 43 knots. These engines were also very reliable.

Whilst I do not believe that the MTB boat was more hevaily armed lb for lb than a destroyer, I think as a comparaison of lb for lb firepower between this general class of vessel, the prize would have to go to the MAS Boats. They only had a displacement of 28 tons, yet carried a significant proportion of the the firepower of their larger northern cousins. An S-Boat weighed 117 tons. A type 601 weighed 97 tons




As an MGB, they were originally fitted with 1 6 pounder, 1 x 2pounder 4 x 20mm and 4 MG. Later, in 1944, they were fitted with 2 x 21 in, so the demarcation between MGB and MTB became very blurred as the war dragged on. 

Gun armament was typically restricted to 1 x 20mm for the types up to the S-38 groups. The S100 Group, which were the main types from 1942, were nominally fitted with 1 x 40mm and 1 x 20mm. Howver ther was quite a bit of variation to this basic arrangement


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## comiso90 (Aug 28, 2009)

*S-Boat Restoration:*


.
S130,The Sole Survivor, WW2 E Boat For Restoration


.






wow... so big... cant compare it to a PT boat


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## Glider (Aug 28, 2009)

I hadn't thought about the lack of elevation for AA duties. 
The increased mining strikes me as odd, as the S boats were not designed for mine laying and whilst you could obviously replace torpedo's with mines to make a decent job of it you would need more aft deck space.
RN Minelayers reduced the guns to carry more mines and kept the front gun, which was often the main weapon. Its interesting how differently each navy approached the same task.

Thanks again


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## Glider (Aug 28, 2009)

parsifal said:


> QUOTE=Glider;550336]You could well be right as some carried up to 4 x 21in Torpedo's. They varied considerably the normal selections being one of the following.
> 
> 4 x 21in Torpedo's e.g. German S Boats, some PT Boats
> 4 x 18in TT e.g. RN MTB's no 380-395 some others as well
> ...




Hi Glider


All S-Boote types were fitted with with two torpedo tubes plus 2 torpedo reloads. the projected 700 series were designed to fire all four fish simultaneously, but weree never built. 

S Boats never carried 4 x 21 in torp tubes . They carried a maximum of two. However, from 1942 they were using a modified G-7e T-2 type toprpedo , which carried a 660 lb warhead, and had a nominal range of 5000m @ 30kts. The torpedo was relatively slow, but was electric (no wake). It was similar to the later war electrtric torps used by the Boats


> Thanks for this. You will note that for the first line I did say torpedo's not torpedo tubes. As you rightly say the original idea was for the S Boat to reload but in the cut and thrust of night battle it almost never happened and the reloads were often left behind. I didn't know about the modified torpedo and thanks for that.




There was massive differences in the British MTB/MGB armament. One of the best was the MTB 601 series, which represented the main types from 1942 to 1944. As an MTB they were fitted initially with 2 x 18, later this was modified to 2 x 21in or 4 x 18in. However the increase in torpedo broadside made these relatively slow boats even slower. Gun armament of the MTB was typically 2 x 6pounders, 2 to 3 x 20mm and 4 x 0.5in or 0.303in.


> I think we need to be clear about the two basic types of RN MTB/MGB for those who are fairly new to this topic. They fell into two classes
> a) The smaller faster MTB that weighed in at between 40-50 tons often called the Vosper. These had a top speed of about 40 knots give or take depending on the version and at wars end often carried a 6pd, 2 x 21in torpedo's and a twin 20mm plus the beloved twin vickers in the bridge wings.
> b) The much bigger Fairmille D class often called the Dog Boats or Type 601 which you mentioned. These were about 100 tons with a max speed of about 28 kts again give or take depending on type. As you mentioned these Battleships of the coastal forces carried 2 x 6pd, 2-4 20mm and MG's of various sizes and at the end of the war 4 x 18in TT.
> 
> On the Fairmile D there were all sorts of versions of weapons depending as much as what was available and preferences as to standard.



Italian MAS boats were much smaller and mor lightly armed, but were very fast. They had an excellent engine to work with in the Isotto Fraschini which yielded 2300hp. With two of these, their 30t MAS 551 could exceed 43 knots. These engines were also very reliable.

Whilst I do not believe that the MTB boat was more hevaily armed lb for lb than a destroyer, I think as a comparaison of lb for lb firepower between this general class of vessel, the prize would have to go to the MAS Boats. They only had a displacement of 28 tons, yet carried a significant proportion of the the firepower of their larger northern cousins. An S-Boat weighed 117 tons. A type 601 weighed 97 tons


> My vote would go to the 45 ton Vosper, its a nice balance of speed, guns, torpedo's and not forgetting they had radar something missing from German S Boats.


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## Glider (Aug 28, 2009)

I remembered this photo. She was HMS Gay Archer (yes, you did read that right) built post war around 1950 as an MTB and is being renovated but in most respects is very similar to a war time RN MTB.

Her weapons are not original when built she carried a 4.5in and a twin 20mm but is sometimes used for film work. You can see how tight deck space was even in this configuration.


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## Milosh (Aug 28, 2009)

Glider, do you have this book?






The 6pdr 7cwt Mk II gun on a Mk VII mount did not appear on the Fairmiles til 1944.


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## Glider (Aug 28, 2009)

Nope but I must cry for Mercy, the Christmas list will get me divorced!!

Seriously No I don't but have other books namely one Warships of WW2 which covers everything in the RN from the largest BB to the smallest requisitioned drifter and yacht. One of its best aspects is the photos which cover literally everything and give details of the weapons on each ship.
For the Coastal Forces they break the MTB's into the individual sub types and give the details for each in most cases as built and as they developed during the war.


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## parsifal (Aug 28, 2009)

Hi Glider

An interesting, and often overlooked nationality in this field are the Russians. The Russianss specialised in ultra-small MTBs, of which the most successful were their D3 and Komsolec Types. 

The D3 were considered large, by Soviet standards, at 35 tons. normal armament was 2 x 21 in torps, and either 4 x 0.5 in or 2-3 x 20mm shvak cannon. They had a very wide selection of machinery types, which also produced huge performace differences, ranging from 32 knots through to 53 knots (yes 53 knots)

The Komsolec design was ready in 1940, but really they were not produced until 1944. They were ultra small, at 15 tons, but they packed a considerable punch. 2 x 21 in torps, with either 4 x 0.5in MG or 2 x 20mm cannon. They were made of reinforced Aluminium, and possessed the fantastic max speed of 57 knots. 

The Soviets were also highly successful subtype in this general class were the armoured river gunboats, and in this field the Soviets reigned supreme. They produced two basic types, the Type 1124BKA type and the much larger MBK type. 

The MBK type was 150 tons, armed with 2 x 85mm guns, 1 x 37mm and 4 x 0.5 in HMGs, with a top speed of 28knots. They were armoured, turret faces to 2 inches, CT 1.5 to two inches, light plate to hull sides .

Over 300 were built during the war, and they allowe3d the Soviets to completely dominate the major rivers of the Eastern Front. This was a significant advantage in the major river crossings the Red Army wa obliged to undertake during the war.


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## Erich (Aug 29, 2009)

yes the S-Boote 700 series was indeed operational in 1945. S-Boot mine ops were chiefly in the Kanal-Denmark straits and on the coastal waters of England, also in the Baltic as the 8th S-Flottille and others based there moved continually almost every other week.


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## PJay (Sep 2, 2009)

Did some of the Soviet boats use tank turrets to mount their 85mm?


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## parsifal (Sep 2, 2009)

PJay said:


> Did some of the Soviet boats use tank turrets to mount their 85mm?



The river gunboats Type 1125BKA and the smaller MBK types were produced from 1935. The earlier types were fitted with a 3in (76mm) gun as used in the T-28 and T-35 tanks. Later the types converted to the Type 3in/41.2 guns and turrets as fitted to the T-34/76, and later with 85 mm and associated tank turrets. At the end of the production run, they were being fitted with 100mm guns in turets. 

But basically they were using tank guns and turrets as you say


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## PJay (Sep 4, 2009)

Made them look quite modern I thought.


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