# The Soviet Occupation of Poland 17.09.1939



## v2 (Sep 17, 2008)

On September 17, 1939, at 2:15 a.m. the Polish Ambassador to the U.S.S.R., M. Waclaw Grzybowski, was summoned to the Soviet Foreign Office. On arriving at the Kremlin, he was received by M. Potemkin, who read him a Note to the effect that the Soviets regarded the Polish Government as disintegrated, and the Polish State as having in fact ceased to exist. All agreements concluded between the U.S.S.R. and Poland were in consequence declared to have ceased to operate. Poland bereft of leadership had become a suitable field for all manner of hazards and surprises constituting a threat to the U.S.S.R. Furthermore, the Soviet Government could not view with indifference the fate of the kindred Ukrainian and White Russian people living on Polish territory, and, in existing circumstances, left defenceless. 

Accordingly, the Soviet Government had ordered its troops to cross the Polish border and take under their protection the life and property of the population of Western Ukraine and Western White Russia. At the same time, the Soviet Government proposed to extricate the Polish people from the unfortunate war into which they were dragged by their unwise leaders, and enable them to live a peaceful life. 

There existed between Poland and the Soviet Republic a pact of non-aggression dated July 25,1932, which on May 5, 1934, was extended until December 31, 1945.

Notwithstanding the strong misgivings aroused in all quarters by the new pact concluded on August 23, 1939, between the Soviets and Germany, in the first days of the war between Poland and Germany a general impression prevailed of a certain good will on the part of the Soviets towards Poland. On August 27 Izvestia published an interview with Marshal Vorosilov who stated that the new understanding with Germany would not prevent Russia from supplying raw materials and even war materials to Poland.

Along the entire Russian border it had been noticed that the tone of Russian broadcasts was not at all unfriendly towards Poland, and on certain frontier stations - much to the amazement of those who were informed - special arrangements were being made in great haste in order to facilitate the transport of goods into Poland. At Molodeczno, it was rumoured, a large convoy of lorries had been rushed over the frontier by night in early September. The Polish Government certainly had difficulties in keeping in touch with its local representatives. Since September 5 it was constantly moving owing to German bombing. But complete tranquillity reigned in the Eastern Provinces of Poland. Mobilisation had taken place under normal conditions and perfectly smoothly; all public authorities were functioning without interruption.

In the light of events it is unnecessary to stress the evident bad faith of the Soviets. The perfidy of Moscow's diplomatic language was vividly reminiscent of many similar documents of the 18th century, when Russia, with Berlin as chief accomplice, undermined the old monarchic Commonwealth of Poland.

In any event, the entrance of the Russian troops was such a surprise, not only to the population but also to the civil and military authorities, that in many places it was thought that the Bolsheviks had entered Poland as allies against Nazi Germany. These doubts were, of course, very soon dispelled. In many places communist "fifth columns" made their appearance with accompanying incidents of violence and plunder. The more determined Polish commanders swerved eastwards, and a new phase of warfare began between the Carpathians and the Dzwina, which lasted another three weeks....

photos: Institute of National Remembrance


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## Wurger (Sep 17, 2008)




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## spit5 (Sep 17, 2008)

We remember 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UB1hlbDLuo_


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## Thorlifter (Sep 17, 2008)

A sad day in Polish history.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 17, 2008)

To the brave Polish soldiers who fought hard against both the Germans and the Russians.

A lot of people forget the treaty the Germans and the Russians signed about partitioning Poland. Russia was not the poor victom as many like to believe.


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## Lucky13 (Sep 20, 2008)

Poland...!


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## parsifal (Sep 30, 2008)

Britain and france have a share in this. When Stalin went looking for a collective security arrangement to contain German agrression, he was redused by Britain (mostly) and also france, mostly on the basis that the Communist system was more a threat than nazi aggression. Most assessments at the time thought that the french and English would win the war, if it started in late 1939 or 1940, the allies expected the French to be on the offensive, with 50-60 Brit Divs supporting the,m and italy providing materiel to the allies. Germany was considered to be committing national hari kari, if she went to war, which ultimately she did, but not in the frame of reference anticipated by the allies at the time. 

Effectively, the bombasity of the western allies forced the russians into the unholy alliance


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## Njaco (Sep 30, 2008)

to all the Polish fighters who, although their home soil was being trampled, continued to fight with bravery and bravado. From the RAF Nos. 300 squadrons of the BoB to the paratroopers of Market Garden.


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## stasoid (Oct 1, 2008)

By moving his troops to the Curzon Line in 1939, Stalin restored generally accepted, historical border established in 18th century between Russia and Poland.
Although several skirmishes between Soviet and Polish troops, through pure misunderstanding, took place in September 1939, there was no point for polish soldiers to fight and die for something that is not in fact your "home soil" but rather a colony.


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## JugBR (Oct 1, 2008)

totally agreed with herr adler, soviet union was so evil than germany. but the war was declared just against germany. f* hypocrisy or fear of big bear, you choose, but the fact is ussr was important to allies defeat germany later.

people dont know today but when the germans advanced over ukraine, lithuania, belarus, and also russia they was received like liberators by local population. the only country wich really fought directly against soviet comunism was germany.

but poland saw the horror of facism and comunism. 2 arrogant superpowers. thats the problem about ones decides the future of anothers. we learn history to remember and dont let it happen again anymore, but allways happens.


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## v2 (Oct 1, 2008)

The provinces of Volhynia (Wolyn), Polesie, Nowogrodek, and Wilno as well as Bialystok had been subjected to the Russian Empire for more than a century. But Lwow, Stanislawow and Tarnopol had seen the Russians only once, in 1914, and had never been under Russian rule: they had been annexed by Austria in the first partition of Poland in 1772.


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## parsifal (Oct 1, 2008)

Poland had been subjected to superpower whims for hundreds of years. i dont know Polish history, but I do kow that they got stuck between napoleon and the Russians in the 1800s.

Conflict between Poles and russians is centuries old, with one side then the other having the upper hand at various times.

What sets the last war apart from all the others is the sheer enormity of the crimes committed against the Poles. Something like 5 million Poles perished in that war, with attrocities from both the germans and the Russians. The Poles as a people deserved better than what they got out of the war....


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## stasoid (Oct 1, 2008)

v2 said:


> The provinces of Volhynia (Wolyn), Polesie, Nowogrodek, and Wilno as well as Bialystok had been subjected to the Russian Empire for more than a century. But Lwow, Stanislawow and Tarnopol had seen the Russians only once, in 1914, and had never been under Russian rule: they had been annexed by Austria in the first partition of Poland in 1772.




Lwow was originally a city of Kievan Rus back in 13th century inhabited by ethnic Ukrainians. Over the centuries of Polish rule its demographics changed but still, by 1939 Poles were an ethnic minority on those territories Stalin "occupied".


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## stasoid (Oct 1, 2008)

parsifal said:


> What sets the last war apart from all the others is the sheer enormity of the crimes committed against the Poles. Something like 5 million Poles perished in that war, with attrocities from both the germans and the Russians. The Poles as a people deserved better than what they got out of the war....



Most attrocities against Poles in the area were commited by ukrainian nationalists who fought against the Red Army and on many occasions collaborated with Nazies.

What's interesting is that Russia didnt gain anything from Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Not a single square mile. 
Lithuveniaand Belarus almost doubled their territories and Ukraine added 25% to its pre-war lands. Now, they condemn Russia for the Pact and years of "occupation" but not in a hurry to return those lands back to Poland.


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## Wurger (Oct 1, 2008)

stasoid said:


> Most attrocities against Poles in the area were commited by ukrainian nationalists who fought against the Red Army and on many occasions collaborated with Nazies.
> 
> What's interesting is that Russia didnt gain anything from Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Not a single square mile.
> Lithuveniaand Belarus almost doubled their territories and Ukraine added 25% to its pre-war lands. Now, they condemn Russia for the Pact and years of "occupation" but not in a hurry to return those lands back to Poland.



Where are you from Stasoid? Let me guess from Russia......judging by your posts.I think you should have gone to a nearest library to find out much more about the history of Poland, Lithuvenia, Belarus and Ukraina before you started posting here.The Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact don't mention at all.

I'll keep an eye on you mate.


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 1, 2008)

stasoid said:


> By moving his troops to the Curzon Line in 1939, Stalin restored generally accepted, historical border established in 18th century between Russia and Poland.
> Although several skirmishes between Soviet and Polish troops, through pure misunderstanding, took place in September 1939, there was no point for polish soldiers to fight and die for something that is not in fact your "home soil" but rather a colony.


Ya know, I just started reading this post and some of your other gems and you're throwing up some major commie bullsh!t here - I'm usually pretty open to people's opinions but you're on the border line of perpetuating some pretty bold statements that won't be tolerated by forum members who actually lost family members by the Soviet's hands. I suggest you tone down your rhetoric or your stay here will be short!!! I'm only going to tell you this ONCE!


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## v2 (Oct 1, 2008)

stasoid said:


> Lwow was originally a city of Kievan Rus back in 13th century inhabited by ethnic Ukrainians. Over the centuries of Polish rule its demographics changed but still, by 1939 Poles were an ethnic minority on those territories Stalin "occupied".



a few maps....

Historical Maps of Poland


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 2, 2008)

stasoid said:


> By moving his troops to the Curzon Line in 1939, Stalin restored generally accepted, historical border established in 18th century between Russia and Poland.
> Although several skirmishes between Soviet and Polish troops, through pure misunderstanding, took place in September 1939, there was no point for polish soldiers to fight and die for something that is not in fact your "home soil" but rather a colony.



Okay let me get this right. According to your history books, Russia just walked into Poland with a white flag. Did not fight the Polish, did not kill Polish civilians?

 

Let me guess they are still teaching this in the Soviet Union, oops, I mean Russia...

*To keep pretending that Russia was the innocent little bystander who did nothing wrong, is pretty naive and frankly very insulting to everyone.* 

_"The Soviet Union had ceased to recognise the Polish state at the start of the invasion. As a result, the two governments never officially declared war on each other. The Soviets therefore did not classify Polish military prisoners as prisoners of war but as rebels against the new legal government of Western Ukraine and Western Byelorussia. The Soviets killed tens of thousands of Polish prisoners of war. Some, like General Józef Olszyna-Wilczyński, who was captured, interrogated and shot on 22 September, were executed during the campaign itself. On 24 September, the Soviets killed forty-two staff and patients of a Polish military hospital in the village of Grabowiec, near Zamość. The Soviets also executed all the Polish officers they captured after the Battle of Szack, on 28 September 1939.[36] Over 20,000 Polish military personnel and civilians perished in the Katyn massacre. About 300 Poles were executed after the Battle of Grodno."_

Lets see the Katyn Massacre:

_"The Katyn massacre, also known as the Katyn Forest massacre (Polish: zbrodnia katyńska, 'Katyń crime'), was a mass execution of Polish military officers, policemen and civilian prisoners of war ordered by Soviet authorities on March 5, 1940. The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000, with the most commonly cited number of 21,768. The victims were murdered in the Katyn forest in Russia, the Kalinin (Tver) and Kharkiv prisons and elsewhere. About 8,000 were officers taken prisoner during the 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland, the rest being Poles arrested for allegedly being "intelligence agents, gendarmes, spies, saboteurs, landowners, factory owners, lawyers, priests, and officials." Since Poland's conscription system required every unexempted university graduate to become a reserve officer, the Soviets were able to round up much of the Polish intelligentsia, and the Jewish, Ukrainian, Georgian and Belarusian intelligentsia of Polish citizenship.

Originally, "Katyn massacre" referred to the massacre at Katyn Forest, near the villages of Katyn and Gnezdovo (ca. 19 km west of Smolensk, Russia), of Polish military officers in the Kozelsk prisoner-of-war camp. It now is applied to the simultaneous executions of POWs from geographically distant Starobelsk and Ostashkov camps, and the executions of political prisoners from West Belarus and West Ukraine, shot on Stalin's orders at Katyn Forest, at the NKVD (Narodny Komissariat Vnutrennikh Del, the Soviet secret police) headquarters in Smolensk, at a Smolensk slaughterhouse, and at prisons in Kalinin (Tver), Kharkiv, Moscow, and other Soviet cities."_

*According to the American professor Carroll Quigley, at least 100,000 out of 320,000 Polish prisoners of war captured by the Red Army in 1939, were exterminated.*


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## parsifal (Oct 2, 2008)

I agree that stasoids comments are outrageous, and appear to be politically motivated.

However, if you guys are actually interested in getting the history right, over political correctness, or straightening out a recalcitrant forum member, I would suggest that you analyze the actual turn of events.

The obvious mistreatment of the Poles vbat the hands of the Stalinist regime (rather than just saying the Soviets) needs to be considered against the backdrop of what was or had, happened in the Soviet Union up that time

The extermination of the Soviet officer Corps 1937-39. Thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of officers murdered, imprisoned or tortured, on the flimsiest of reasons.

The collectivisation program, which was in reality a means of getting state control over agriculture. The losses taken by the russian people in this pogrom were enormous, some estimate as many as one in ten Russians perished under that oppression. if that is correct, with a population of 200000000 the death toll would be approaching that of the whole of WWII.

All political or other opposition to Stalin was systematically and ruthlessly eliminated, as illustrated by the fate of trotsky. It would be very conservative to estimate the cost of this ongoing pogrom in the millions in the period 1920-45

The Soviet Union was responsible for the targetted extermination of at least a million Jews during the war. Soviet methods were cruder than German, and far less well documented. They simply marched the ukrainian Jews off to the work camps in Siberia, and worked them to death


If you go looking for any POWs of Russians captured in 1941, you will not find them. After the war, Stalin deemed all of them to have disobeyed his order of the day to stand and fight to the death. He had all of them shot, or otherwise eliminated. Given that ther were atleast 2000000 survivors from the nazi POW system, this is yet another attrocity committed by Stalin against his own people.

Russian people do not consider that they mistreated the poles, because they themselves had endured misery far worse themselves. it was the product of living under the control paranoid murderer


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## evangilder (Oct 2, 2008)

So because someone has been mistreated, that makes it okay to mistreat others? The problem with that premise is that there will never be an end to oppression and violence. You can excuse it as a "product of their environment" or whatever PC term you wish to use, but it is still inexcusable in my book.


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## Njaco (Oct 2, 2008)

> Russian people do not consider that they mistreated the poles, because they themselves had endured misery far worse themselves.



Me being killed by a bomb makes it more horrible than you being killed by a knife?

I'm sure V2 was trying to honor a day in POLISH history that was the start of suffering for many Poles and to side track to a debate over who killed who is ridiculus.

Its like me trying to throw into the mix the number of slaves killed in the US from 1700 to 1930 as a comparison.

Since I started the home soil comment - any person who is willing to fight for the piece of dirt he was born on has the right to call that "home soil" regardless of political correctness.

Again I  those countrymen of V2 and Wurger.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 2, 2008)

parsifal said:


> Russian people do not consider that they mistreated the poles, because they themselves had endured misery far worse themselves. it was the product of living under the control paranoid murderer



And that makes it right?


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## parsifal (Oct 2, 2008)

No, it most certainly does not make it right, and if you have ever followed my opinions on other similar sensitive subjects, you will know my opinions on human rights abuses. In fact I have taken stands that promote human rights which many of you find aborrent because you see it as encroaching on your "inalienable rights"

I dont think we have the slightest idea of the de-humanising effect of the totalitarian system on the individuals sense of right and wrong. It is still wrong if you are a soldier, and you obey an unlawful command. If your commander tells you to shoot an innocent civilian, and you do, you are just as guilty as the officer who told you...but understanding why that soldier might be induced to discount the significance of what he is doing, which goes way beyond the simple act of murdering an individual, is important, if you really want to try and stop such things happening in the future 

Before you crucify me, I am not supporting Stasoids position in any way shape or form. I find it totally abhorrent actually.


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## JugBR (Oct 2, 2008)

i think this kind of discussions should not be taken personally. the fact is soviet union invaded poland in 39 and nobody did anything to help the polaks. now, its just too late to do something. and lets remember ussr ran with the germans out of poland.

parsifal, i dont know too much about polak history, but i know poland was very important to contain the barbarian invasions into europe. poland had a great role in defending all europe against barbarians. v2 and wurger could say if im right or wrong and talk more about that.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 2, 2008)

parsifal said:


> Before you crucify me, I am not supporting Stasoids position in any way shape or form. I find it totally abhorrent actually.



No crucifying here, just trying to understand your position.


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## parsifal (Oct 2, 2008)

I'll try and put my point in another way. I think it is very easy to apply our standards and values to all situations, without taking into account the circumstances that the event takes place. 

In the case of Soviet methods, human life had been reduced to such cheap proportions under Stalin that nobody thought it unjust or unreasoable to take life for reasons we find totally unjustifiable. That doesnt make it right, nor does it justify it, it just explains it.

In the case of Stalinist russia, the value of human life had been reduced to about as low as it could go. There was even less rule of law in Russia than there was in Germany. given a choice between the two regimes, i think I would prefer to live under the Nazi system rather than the Soviet system (provided I wasnt Jewish). Its against that backdrop of poor regard and de-humanised condition that you have to understand why things were done like the Katyn massacre. To the Soviets it wasnt that abnormal, no big deal. To us its a crime that remains unpunished. 

The debasement of values we take for granted begins with the first bully in the schoolyard, it ends with whole populations being massacred. this is why I believe in the upholding of the law and justice for everyone. If you let even one crime slip without even allowing that to register in yur consciousness, we all suffer

And dont put me in the basket of hopeless liberal. I am a conservative voter, and a believer in law and order. Ive done my time at the coalface. Its just that I think about why things are, or why things turned out, and try to explain that outcome


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## v2 (Oct 2, 2008)

Thank you Njaco!

Parsifal: remember please that Russians started the war together with nazis...

THE SOVIET INVASION OF POLAND DURING WORLD WAR TWO


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## spit5 (Oct 2, 2008)

...


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## parsifal (Oct 2, 2008)

QUOTE=v2;405683]

Parsifal: remember please that Russians started the war together with nazis...

THE SOVIET INVASION OF POLAND DURING WORLD WAR TWO[/QUOTE]

Hi V-2

I am respectful and sympathetic to Polsih suffering and the injustices meted out on the Poles by both the Germans and the Russians during the war. I should not have to re-state that position beyond that....just because one person is insenstive to that situation doesnt mean that all of us, who want to seek the truthg, are tainted with the same brush.

Putting the injustices to one side for the time being, I believe its important to understand the history that led to these events.

I confess that my knowledge of Polish history is very poor, but (in 25 words or less) I believe to be roughly this....the Polish state originally emerged about 1028, quickly disintegrated, was re-unified in the 13th century. After a period of warefare and agression against the "heathen eastern tribes" became more an more closely aligned to modern Lithuania. There was a climactic war against the Teutonic Knights, and in the 14th and 15th centuries saw further exapansion that saw "Poland" extended all the way from the baltic to the black sea.

Poland in the later middle ages was remarkable because of it racial and religious tolerance. Many minorities settled there as a result, significnatly a large number of Jews settled in Poland because of that religious freedom. This of course was to have major ramifications in WWII. 

In the 17th and 18th centuries i believe the Polish power began to wane, as the powerful neighbours of Prussia and Russia began to influence Polish affairs. Poland allied herdelf closely to Napoleon, and in 1815, when the borders were redrawn, much of eastern Poland was lost to Russia. Poland herself became a Russian vassal state, as i recall. This situation remained until 1918, when the borders were re-drawn again at Versailles, and Polish independance granted. There was a reaction in Russia, leading to the war in 1920-21. Poland won this war, but the dissatisfaction of the Soviets at having lost so much territory was manifestly evident.....In 1939 the Soviets took the opportunity to gain back territory that it had lost in 1918 (plus additional territory), which they retained a substantial part of in 1945.

Is that more or less a thumnail understanding of Polish history for the las t 800 years???


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## JugBR (Oct 2, 2008)

v2 said:


> Thank you Njaco!
> 
> Parsifal: remember please that Russians started the war together with nazis...
> 
> THE SOVIET INVASION OF POLAND DURING WORLD WAR TWO



v2 i agree with you, but this war would start with or without ussr anyway. remember v2, russia suffered the largest military ofensive of history, they lost 20 - 25 milion citzens and germany also lost the war in russia too. that war wasnt easy for anyone in battlefield, "the eternal war of the poor man", isnt true ?

russians sufered with facism and also with stalin, but they choose the guy who speak russian.


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## Njaco (Oct 3, 2008)

So lets not honor individual states and their struggle in WW2 and just give a collective "ahhhh" and carry on, right?


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## JugBR (Oct 3, 2008)

lets never forget the horrors of this war, to this never happen again....

even if it allways happens again...


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## parsifal (Oct 3, 2008)

NJ war brings out the worst, and the best in people, sometimes the same person. However,, I get the impression from what you are saying that we should be accepting of this situation..."what can we do?', "Its all too hard" " We dont want to upset people"!!!

I disagree. Sometimes we cant do anything tangible, or real to reverse an injustice, but that doesnt mean we should allow it to pass. if there is injustice, we strengthen that injustice if we just "let it pass". We should not go quuietly in the night, we should stand and be counted. This is why it is still important to hunt down Nazis even if they are in their eighties, or even nineties, and seek justice for those who perished under their rule. 

The Soviets as a people are guilty of some pretty heinous war crimes, including the rape of Poland. Yet, if we are honest, 13 million Soviets died defeating a regime that was even more malevolent than they were. We could not have done it without them. This is why I am torn about the issue of Soviet war guilt

And, i think it was Churchill who summed it up precisely by restating the ancient chinese proverb...."the enemy of my enemy is my friend". This was a policy fully supported by FDR. It was on this basis that the aspiration of the free Polish movement were abandoned by the West. We had no choice. it was accede to the Russians, or risk losing the war. That doesnt make it any easier, nor does it right a wrong....it just puts it into perspective for us westerners

In every instance, the Poles were expected to compromise their interests for the sake of the Alliance. In 1943, for example, Churchill could only tell the Polish government in London that it was "probably true' that the eight thousand Polish officers discovered in a mass grave in Katyn Forest were murdered by the Russians in 1939: "The Bolsheviks can be very cruel.' In 1944, he remonstrated with Stalin for stopping just short of the gates of Warsaw while the Polish Home Army, badly overmatched, rose up against the Nazis. Little was done to aid the Warsaw Poles, who in any event were "liquidated' by Stalin upon the Nazis' departure. 

One can take a certain perverse satisfaction from the Poles' recognizing Stalin for what he was before anyone else (except perhaps Churchill), and from General Wladyslaw Anders's confiding to Churchill, "After having beaten the Germans, we shall beat the Muscovites.' On most occasions, Churchill remained the realist; well before free and open Polish elections proved chimerical, Churchill told one of his secretaries: "Make no mistake, all the Balkans, except Greece, are going to be Bolshevized; and there is nothing I can do to prevent it. There is nothing I can do for poor Poland either.' But the Yalta Conference, with its promise of sanity and order in a world of V-1 and V-2 rockets, firebombing, and Russian greed, beckoned mightily. Stalin knew what he wanted, and he ruthlessly pursued it. And the west did not have the will, or the strength, in my opinion, to stop him


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## v2 (Oct 3, 2008)

WWII first step- Pact Ribbentrop- Molotow:
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact: The Documents


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## Njaco (Oct 3, 2008)

> However,, I get the impression from what you are saying that we should be accepting of this situation..."what can we do?', "Its all too hard" " We dont want to upset people"!!!



No thats not it at all. The point I wanted to make - and I don't want to put words in V2's mouth - is that I believe he started this thread to honor and recognize an important date in his country's history and it seemed to take a downturn into "who did who" or who suffered more. I agree the Soviets suffered and at the same time committed crimes just as Germany just as many countries. But this seemed to me to be a thread about Poland's day during WW2 and not a pissing contest.

I agree with a lot of what you posted and I respect your view on things as you seem to have a clearer picture of events but the thread appeared to be losing focus.


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## stasoid (Oct 4, 2008)

_Originally Posted by stasoid 
By moving his troops to the Curzon Line in 1939, Stalin restored generally accepted, historical border established in 18th century between Russia and Poland.
Although several skirmishes between Soviet and Polish troops, through pure misunderstanding, took place in September 1939, there was no point for polish soldiers to fight and die for something that is not in fact your "home soil" but rather a colony._



FLYBOYJ said:


> Ya know, I just started reading this post and some of your other gems and you're throwing up some major commie bullsh!t here - I'm usually pretty open to people's opinions but you're on the border line of perpetuating some pretty bold statements that won't be tolerated by forum members who actually lost family members by the Soviet's hands. I suggest you tone down your rhetoric or your stay here will be short!!! I'm only going to tell you this ONCE!



It's not a commie BS, FLYBOY. George Curzon, who draw the Line, was not a commie, neither I am. 
It just happened to be Stalin who returned Poland's eastern border to where it is supposed to be and where it is now. It could've been anyone else, earlier or late all empires desintegrate and perish in history. 
Thanks *V2* for posting those maps of Poland from the middle ages. We can post more maps of Golden Horde, Ottoman, British, Austro-Hungarian etc empires and where all those countries are now.

See, the fact is that east of the Curzon Line, Poles were a ruling minority hated by local inhabitants. That's probably why the Red Army was initially greeted with flowers when they took over the lands of western Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania in 1939. Those people, most of them, unaware of Stalin's brutality and political repressions, paid a high price short after, but this is another story.

Have you ever heard of term "Polonization"? Ukrainians of Western Ukraine, for example, under Polish rule were treated as subhumans with no rights of governing or even teaching their language in schools. Ukrainian literature was banned. While being Orthodox Christians they were forcefully converted to Catolicism. Same was happening with Belarussians. Lithuanians feared losing their cultural identity ander Poles as well.

Now, I have a question to Parsifal. Your comment about Soviets prosecuting and killing a million of Jews??? 
Could you please be more specific of where, when and why? 
As far as I know 80% of Stalin's Politburo were Jewish. And Jews were always among bravest and smartes soldiers and officers in the Red Army treated equally as others.


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## JugBR (Oct 4, 2008)

ate least, theres a lot of information in this topic and i thing this is the best way to honor those ho lost their lifes fighting for poland.

v2, great links !


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## stasoid (Oct 4, 2008)

When the territories of Western Belarus, Western Ukraine and the Wilno region were incorporated into Poland after the Treaty of Riga, Poland rejected its international obligations to grant autonomy to eastern Galicia[10], which she had never intended to honor.[49] Linguistic assimilation was considered by National Democrats to be a major factor for "unifying the state." For example, Stanisław Grabski, Polish Minister for Religion and Public Education in 1923 and 1925–1926, wrote that "Poland may be preserved only as a state of Polish people. If it were a state of Poles, Jews, Germans, Rusyns, Belarusians, Lithuanians, Russians, it would lose its independence again"; and that "it is impossible to make a nation out of those who have no 'national self-identification,' who call themselves 'local' (tutejszy)."[citation needed]. Grabski also said that the aim of Polish policy should be "the transformation of the Commonwealth into Polish ethnic territory."[50][51] *Some officials denied the existence of the Ukrainian and Belarusian nations altogether*

*A law issued in 1924 banned usage of any language but Polish in governmental and municipal paperwork*. It the area of public education it was postulated that state schools could be only Polish language schools.[41] Local populations could have private local language schools, but only in territories "loyal to the Polish state"[citation needed]. Specifically with respect to the Eastern territories (known as Kresy Wschodnie, or "Eastern Borderlands") it was recognized that "schools can become an instrument of the cultural development in Eastern lands only if Polish teachers will work there"[citation needed]. It turned out to be infeasible for implementation and, in particular cases, bilingual schools ("utraquist schools", szkoły utrakwistyczne) were proposed, while in reality those schools were functionally the Polish language ones

The attitude of Ukrainians of that time is well shown in the statements by the reputable Ukrainian historian Mykhailo Hrushevsky, who noted negative influence of Polish policies on the Ukrainian culture: *"the four centuries of Polish rule had left particularly destructive effects (...) economic and cultural backwardness in Galicia was the main "legacy of historical Poland, which assiduously skimmed everything that could be considered the cream of the nation, leaving it in a state of oppression and helplessness".*

*The land reform designed to favour the Poles in mostly Ukrainian populated Volhynia*, the agricultural territory where the land question was especially severe, brought the alienation from the Polish state of even the Orthodox Volhynian population who tended to be much less radical than the Greek Catholic Calicians

After the Polish legislative election, 1930, Belarusian representation in the Polish parliament was reduced and since the early 1930s the Polish government started to introduce policies intended to Polonize the minorities. *In 1938 about 100 abandoned Orthodox churches were destroyed or converted to Roman Catholic in the eastern parts of Poland.[56] The use of Belarusian language was discouraged.* There wasn't a Belarusian school in the spring of 1939, and only 44 schools teaching Belarusian language existed in Poland at the beginning of World War 

Situation of Lithuanians also was getting worse. During the interwar period of the 20th century (1920-1939) Lithuanian-Polish relations were characterised by mutual enmity. Starting with the conflict over the city of Vilnius (Wilno), and the Polish-Lithuanian War shortly after the First World War, both governments - in the era nationalism was sweeping through Europe - treated their respective minorities harshly.[57] [58] [59] Beginning 1920, after the staged mutiny of Lucjan Żeligowski Lithuanian cultural activities in Polish controlled territories were limited; closure of newspapers and arrest of editors occurred.[60] One of them - Mykolas Biržiška was accused of state treason and sentenced to a death penalty, only direct intervention by the League of Nations saved him from this fate. He was one of 32 Lithuanian and Belarussian cultural activists formally expelled from Vilnius on September 20, 1922 and turned over to Lithuanian army.[60] In 1927, as tensions between Lithuania and Poland arose furthermore 48 Lithuanian schools were closed and another 11 Lithuanian activist were deported. [57] Following Piłsudski's death in 1935, Lithuanian minority in Poland again became an object of Polonisation policies, more intensive this time. 266 Lithuanian schools were closed since 1936 and almost all organizations were banned. Further Polonisation was ensued as the government encouraged settlement of Polish army veterans in disputed regions. [61] About 400 Lithuanian reading rooms and libraries were closed in Poland in 1936-1938


Polonization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 4, 2008)

V2 I am sorry that your thread got derailed by people wanting to take the attention away from the suffering of the Poles.

 To the Poles and the suffering they underwent by both the Germans and the Russians. Both Germany and Russia are guilty no matter how you want to look at it. 

There is no sugar coating it or churching it up.


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## parsifal (Oct 4, 2008)

Njaco said:


> No thats not it at all. The point I wanted to make - and I don't want to put words in V2's mouth - is that I believe he started this thread to honor and recognize an important date in his country's history and it seemed to take a downturn into "who did who" or who suffered more. I agree the Soviets suffered and at the same time committed crimes just as Germany just as many countries. But this seemed to me to be a thread about Poland's day during WW2 and not a pissing contest.
> 
> I agree with a lot of what you posted and I respect your view on things as you seem to have a clearer picture of events but the thread appeared to be losing focus.



Hi NJ

I apologize for misunderstanding you. i didnt think that you would say or imply what I first thought, so please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding

It seems from the subsequent posts that you are right, the purpose of this post has been derailed. i feel bad about that because i contributed to that derailment. I didnt intend for that to be the case, but it happened. I'm embarrassed actually. So, to V-2 I apologize as well for my part in this. You have to believe that my intentions were good but its just all gone to the dogs by the look of it....

My intent was to highlight Polish suffering, and the benefits we westerners won as a result of that sacrifice. I also wanted to point out my confusions concerning the russians, because even though they mistreated Poles, we westerners have an unpaid debt to the russians as well. Perhaps this was the wrong time and place for that sort of discussion


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## Njaco (Oct 4, 2008)

No worries, Parsifal, no offense. This stuff happens to threads all over and its a shame.

Stasoid, do you understand how Wiki works?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 4, 2008)

parsifal said:


> Hi NJ
> 
> I apologize for misunderstanding you. i didnt think that you would say or imply what I first thought, so please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding
> 
> ...



My comments about derailment were not intended toward you...


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## v2 (Oct 4, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> V2 I am sorry that your thread got derailed by people wanting to take the attention away from the suffering of the Poles.
> 
> To the Poles and the suffering they underwent by both the Germans and the Russians. Both Germany and Russia are guilty no matter how you want to look at it.
> 
> There is no sugar coating it or churching it up.




Thank you Chris. No problem for me, I think this thread make a problem for stasoid... 
We must remember only one thing: Hitler started war together with Stalin. Blitzkriegs in Poland, Belgium, Netherlands,French and BoB were possibly only with Stalin's helpful...


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## evangilder (Oct 4, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> To the Poles and the suffering they underwent by both the Germans and the Russians. Both Germany and Russia are guilty no matter how you want to look at it.
> 
> There is no sugar coating it or churching it up.



Well put, Chris. There is a heavy Polish population where I grew up. Solidarnosc shirts were everywhere and Lech Walesa was a hero to many. I had many friends whose families were from Poland. That is where I picked up Na Z Drowie.

If anyone notice where V2s location is, Cracow, and knows enough about Polish history, Auschwitz and Birkenau were just outside of Cracow. There were 3.3 million Jew in Poland before the war. 90% of them were killed by the Nazis in what was a near complete annihilation of Polish Jews. Hundreds of thousands of Poles who were not Jewish also perished under the Nazi boot.

The Soviet "liberation" of Poland toward the end of the war did not bring relief from repression, sadly.


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## Wurger (Oct 4, 2008)

I'm with V2 here.
In addition I have to mention that over six milions of Poles lost their lifes during WW2.They were civilian mostly.Those killed by Stalin's regime don't mention because it is very hard to estimate how many.

What is more, I have been to Oświęcim ( Auschwitz and Birkenau ) several times.I usually visited the concentration camp without watching the documantal film which was shown there in the museum cinema.Then I decided to watch it.Guys, nobody is able to stay there to the end of the movie....


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## Njaco (Oct 4, 2008)

I think Stasoid and Harvard are brothers.


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## Wurger (Oct 5, 2008)

I think it is possible.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Oct 5, 2008)

Maybe FDR was too liberal. Maybe that's why he chose Stalin as an ally. Winston Churchill? I thought he was a conservative but I guess he figured the Soviets could do as good a job destroying the Germans as the British and Americans ever could.


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## parsifal (Oct 5, 2008)

Make no mistake, the allied victory was in large measure won by the Soviets. Everybody had a role to play...US was the "arsenal Of Democrqacy, Britain and Commonwealth provided naval power, army strength in the Pacific, , support to the Americans, and the "moral leadership" by never surrendering. And the Soviets? They occupied and defeated the major part of the wehrmacht, occupying the attentions of over 80% of german units (in terms combat time) and the lions share of german casulaties were suffered at the hands of the red Army.

The importance of the Russians to the Allied victory should not be under-estimated. This is the huge conundrum for me. On the one hand they are our deliverers from an evil far worse than they, yet on the other they subjugated and badly mistreated nearly all those who fell under their power, but particulalry the Poles. 

war was won mostly by the Soviets, with the west acting in a support


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## JugBR (Oct 5, 2008)

very realistic words of parsifal.

is good to remember, 180 divisions of german army, was used against ussr, more than 3 milion men, isntead afrika korps used just 2 panzer divisions.

wasnt fdr or churchill who choosen moscow as allied. hitler choosen stalin to be british allied, when he broke the treaty between germany and ussr.


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## Wurger (Oct 5, 2008)

parsifal said:


> On the one hand they are our deliverers from an evil far worse than they,
> war was won mostly by the Soviets, with the west acting in a support



And do you really think that it excuses their crimes?
In my opinion it was the same evil but with another face.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 5, 2008)

Wurger said:


> In my opinion it was the same evil but with another face.



I agree 100%. The crimes were no less or different.


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## Njaco (Oct 5, 2008)

The wolf in sheep's clothing.


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## Wurger (Oct 5, 2008)

Exactly, and what makes the matter worse it is said the wolf of the same breed.


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## parsifal (Oct 6, 2008)

I agree that the Soviets are just as guilty as the germans, and that their crimes, in their effect, are just as bad, However, it is untrue to say that they are the same as the germans 


If it was as easy as being able to say "the Soviets are the same as the germans" it would be a "no brainer". But Soviet Policy was not the same as German Policy, and that makes the whole issue more difficult.
The germans had a basic theme in all of their eastern european policy. they wanted the current occupants of those territories dead, so as to make "living space " for germans. It was a crackpot theory, but it was the policy of the third reich nevertheless

Soviet policy toward the eastern european countries was different, and it changed as the war progressed. In 1939 Stalins initial position was to form a collective security pact aimed at containing the germans, but this was rejected by the Western European powers, particulalrly Britain. If it had been adopted, it would almost certainly have seen Soviet troops fighting alongside Poles against germans in poland in 1939, or better yet, no fighting at all.

However, it would be naive to suppose that Soviet intentions were all platonic. The soviet objective were the spread of communisim, by fair means or foul, and the domination of eastern europe for both economic and political advantage. postwar this was extended to provided a defence buffer between Germany and the Soviet Union. Whilst Soviet Policy was completely oblivious to the intersts of eastern europe it was not, in itseldf murderous in intent. Soviets might use murder as a means to and end, but unlike the germans it was not THE end of their policy


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## Wurger (Oct 7, 2008)

Dear Parsifal,

Fortunately you live far far away form the part of Europe you are trying to talk about.You evan cannot imagine what Russians did here in that time and later.In your opinion the Nazi Germans and Soviets are two different things.But the only difference is at places where they settled their concentration camps and methods they used for human extermination.
You are talking about the Nazi German's policy of "living space " and the Russian communisim.Do you really think that these two expression have a different meaning? If yes please, change your library and books you read usually about German-Polish-Russian's connections.
You have written "If it had been adopted, it would almost certainly have seen Soviet troops fighting alongside Poles against germans in poland in 1939".It is a joke of course.I like kidding but not this time.
How it could be possible at all? In 1919/1921 when the young Soviet country tried to offer the communisim to the Westen Europe, the first country which got in the way this was Poland whose statehood had just been re-established.One of the defeated Soviet's commanders was Joseph Stalin who was an unforgiving and vindictive man.So as long as Poland was independent country there was not any possiblity to make the Soviet communism wide-spread in the Europe and even all over the world.Therefore Stalin tried to do that via Spain.So don't tell us that Poles could fight against Germans going alangside Soviets in 1939.Poland always stood alone against Germans, Russians and others neighbours.


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## parsifal (Oct 7, 2008)

Hi Wurger

Having problems with my connection again, so i will have to put this reply together in pieces 9I keep losing my connection to the site)

I will give you the Link to the relavant Wiki article, which may help you understand whay I am sayiung what i did. I did not consult or use the article before making my last post on this thread

Molotovâ€“Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_Franco-British negotiations with the Soviet Union
In March 1939, Hitler's denunciation of the 1934 German–Polish Non-Aggression Pact was taken by the Soviets as a clear signal of Hitler's aggressive intentions. In April, Soviet foreign minister Litvinov outlined a French–British–Soviet alliance, with military commitments against Fascist powers, but Chamberlain's government procrastinated (partly because the Soviets demanded too much – impossible troop commitments, Soviet annexation of the Baltic states, complete reciprocity, and the right to send troops through Poland).

Chamberlain, however, had already on 24 March, along with France, guaranteed the sovereignty of Poland, and subsequently on 25 April signed a Common Defence Pact with Poland. Consequently, Stalin no longer feared that the West would leave the Soviet Union to fight Hitler alone; indeed, if Germany and the West went to war, as seemed likely, the USSR could afford to remain neutral and wait for them to destroy each other.

Negotiations between the Soviet Union, France and the United Kingdom for a military alliance against Germany stalled, mainly due to mutual suspicions. The Soviet Union sought guarantees for support against German aggression and recognition of the right of the Soviet Union to act against "a change of policy favorable to an aggressor" in the countries along the western Soviet border. Although none of the affected countries had formally asked for protection by the Soviet Union, it nevertheless announced "guarantees for the independence of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Romania, Turkey, and Greece", the so-called "cordon sanitaire" erected between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. The British and French feared that this would allow Soviet intervention in neighboring countries' internal affairs, even in the absence of an immediate external German threat.

However, with the Third Reich now demanding territorial concessions from Poland in the face of Polish opposition, the threat of war was increasing. Although telegrams were exchanged between the Western Powers and the Soviet Union as early as April 1939, the military missions sent by the Western Powers (on a slow transport vessel) did not arrive in Moscow until August 11, and were given no authority to conduct talks resulting in binding agreements or to sign treaties.

During the first phase of the negotiations begun in April 1939, the Anglo-French side was unwilling to create a formal military alliance as suggested by the USSR. However, the Western leaders soon gave up and suggested a military alliance in May. A couple of proposals were made by both sides. On June 2, 1939, the Soviet Union submitted its proposal, which suggested tripartite military action under three circumstances:

in case a European Power (i.e., Germany) attacked a contracting party; 
in case of German aggression against Belgium, Greece, Turkey, Romania, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, or Finland (all of whom the contracting parties had promised to defend); 
in case of the involvement of a participant in war due to rendering assistance to a European country which has pled for aid. 
This proposal was discussed for the next two months, until the Western allies eventually accepted it almost completely. Molotov suggested signing the (political) alliance treaty together with the military treaty, for which Western delegations were sent to Moscow. 

The military negotiations lasted from August 12 to August 17. On August 14, the question of Poland was raised by Voroshilov for the first time. The Polish government feared that the Soviet government sought to annex disputed territories, the Eastern Borderlands, received by Poland in 1920 after the Treaty of Riga ending the Polish–Soviet War. Therefore, the Polish government refused to allow the Soviet military to enter its territory and establish military bases[citation needed].

Three weeks into August the negotiations ground to a halt, with each side doubting the other's motives. It should also be noted that the Soviets had already had contacts with the Germans throughout the spring of 1939. The Soviet Union pursued secret talks with Nazi Germany, while conducting public ones with United Kingdom and France. From the beginning of the negotiations with France and Britain it was clear that Soviet position required agreeing to their occupation of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania . Finland was to be included in Soviet sphere of influence as well. The public nature of talks with France and Britain increased the pressure on Hitler by Stalin to heighten his price in reward for alliance with the Soviets ._


The article goes on to say that Stalin abandoned the collective security proposals because he could see that the allies were still following a policy of appeasement....I dont fully accept that because it seems to me that the real sticking point was the Soviet territorial demands in eastern europe and the issue of Poland. The Poles steadfastly refused to accept the right of passage for Soviet troops, and these reservations were reflected in the Western allied responses to Stalins proposals.

In my opinion, the Poles in 1939 were faced with some difficult choices. They either had to accept Soviet troops into Poland to fight alongside them against the germans (and yes, this was the case), or they accede to german demands. They did neither, and paid the price for that intransigence.

The Poles for me rpresent a gallant and proud ally that faced a situation that is extremely unenviable. I dont know if a collective security arrangement with Russia would have been better for Poland or not, but its hard to imagine the outcome being any worse than it actually turned out to be.

You mention that I should check my library, which is always a welcome suggestion. Do you have any English language suggestions that I should have a look at that repudiates the Soviet offers for collective security in 1939. I should very much like to have a look at them.

You also mention that I am far removed from the affairs of eastern europe. Very true, but in a sense this might be a benfit. i have no agenda, no pre-conveived biases to influence my reading of the situation

You also say that there is no difference between Nazism and Communism. I have to say that is not correct. The Nazis demonstrated, and had written what they intended to do in eastern europe. A small issue that prevented them from fully implementing that policy was that they lost the war. The Soviets won the war, occupied Poland (along with the rest of eastern europe) and proceeded to do what? It was not a policy of extermination...it was a policy of exploitation and domination, but it was not extermination, which is what i believe would have been the case if the germans had won. I am not saying that the Soviet methods were not cruel, or that the SWoviets were not above murder, or mass murder. They were. but the proof that they were not following genocidal policies is self evident. they didnt commit genocide in the post war occupation therefore (assuming that the Nazis were intending to commit genocide), they canot be considered the same as the Nazis


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## v2 (Oct 8, 2008)

Hi parsifal,

I found interesting book for you, best then wiki....
Amazon.com: Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar: Simon Sebag Montefiore: Books


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## parsifal (Oct 8, 2008)

Thanks

I will try and get a copy. i read one or two of the the reviews from the Link you provided. it seems to suggest that Stalin was at one turn a homicidal monster, full of paranoia, and in the next instant, a gentle friend and family man. This is in fact pretty close to my impression of him....a totally unpredictable maniac who could turn on someone, or an entire community for the slightest of reasons. It must have been torture living or working closely for him....the book should make intersting reading


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## Wurger (Oct 8, 2008)

Hi Parsifal,



parsifal said:


> In my opinion, the Poles in 1939 were faced with some difficult choices. They either had to accept Soviet troops into Poland to fight alongside them against the germans (and yes, this was the case), or they accede to german demands. They did neither, and paid the price for that intransigence.
> 
> The Poles for me rpresent a gallant and proud ally that faced a situation that is extremely unenviable. I dont know if a collective security arrangement with Russia would have been better for Poland or not, but its hard to imagine the outcome being any worse than it actually turned out to be.



After Polish-Soviet war in 1919-21 the bias against Soviets was so huge that there wasn't any possiblity to meet half way.So no wonder Polish government refused to accept the right of passage for Soviet troops.In their opinion it was Stalin's trap for taking-over the control over some Polish territory.And it could be the first step to bring communizm to the part of the Europe and then farther.To stop it the Polish Government couldn't agree with Stalin's idea.



parsifal said:


> You mention that I should check my library, which is always a welcome suggestion. Do you have any English language suggestions that I should have a look at that repudiates the Soviet offers for collective security in 1939. I should very much like to have a look at them.



Unfortunately this is a problem.There aren't many books translated into English where you can read about the matter.



parsifal said:


> You also mention that I am far removed from the affairs of eastern europe. Very true, but in a sense this might be a benfit. i have no agenda, no pre-conveived biases to influence my reading of the situation.



Yes it maybe a benefit for you.But many Western people still thinking that Poland is a part of Russia.Their opinions about my country and the Eastern Europe affairs are incorrect. 



parsifal said:


> You also say that there is no difference between Nazism and Communism. I have to say that is not correct. The Nazis demonstrated, and had written what they intended to do in eastern europe. A small issue that prevented them from fully implementing that policy was that they lost the war. The Soviets won the war, occupied Poland (along with the rest of eastern europe) and proceeded to do what? It was not a policy of extermination...it was a policy of exploitation and domination, but it was not extermination, which is what i believe would have been the case if the germans had won. I am not saying that the Soviet methods were not cruel, or that the SWoviets were not above murder, or mass murder. They were. but the proof that they were not following genocidal policies is self evident. they didnt commit genocide in the post war occupation therefore (assuming that the Nazis were intending to commit genocide), they canot be considered the same as the Nazis



I think you still don't understand .You have stated that the Nazis loudly showed and wrote their intention what they wanted to do in Eastern Europe.It is true.Therefore all people in all over the world knew about this.Poland has been fighting against Germany for ages.And we could expect what they wanted.But Stalin didn't show his true colours at all.That's way there aren't many who know the truth.You wrote it wasn't the extermination but exploitation and domination only.So how to call the mass displacement of all Poles ( and not only Poles) from the territory taken-over in 1939 using stock-cars without water, food etc..to places in Syberia or Kazakhstan where my countrymen died and suffered from starvation,ilnesses etc.. where they were beaten,tortured, put down and murderd of course not in the way like the Nazis did but slowly step by step.Yep.... you are right exploitation.... for the death.How many times do Poles have to prove to the Western people that the Nazism and Communism were the same?


my best


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## v2 (Oct 8, 2008)

Stalin's order for the KATYN FOREST MASSACRE


Top Secret 

5 March 1940 

USSR People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs 

Moscow 

To Comrade Stalin 

A large number of former officers of the Polish Army, employees of the Polish Police and intelligence services, members of Polish nationalist, counter-revolutionary parties, members of exposed counter-revolutionary resistance groups, escapees and others, all of them sworn enemies of Soviet authority full of hatred for the Soviet system, are currently being held in prisoner-of-war camps of the USSR NKVD and in prisons in the western provinces of Ukraine and Belarus. 

The military and police officers in the camps are attempting to continue their counter-revolutionary activities and are carrying out anti-Soviet agitation. Each of them is waiting only for his release in order to start actively struggling against Soviet authority. 

The organs of the NKVD in the western provinces of the Ukraine and Belarus have uncovered a number of counter-revolutionary rebel organisations. 

Former officers of the Polish Army and police as well as gendarmes have played an active role in all of these organisations. 

Amongst the detained escapees and violators of the state borders a considerable number of people have been identified as belonging to counter-revolutionary espionage and resistance organisations. 

14,736 former officers, government officials, landowners, police, gendarmes, prison guards, settlers in the border regions and intelligence officers [more than 97% are Poles] are being held in prisoner-of-war camps. This number includes soldiers and junior officers. 

Included are: 

generals, colonels and lieutenant colonels- 295
majors and captains- 2080
lieutenants, second lieutenants and ensigns- 6049
officers and juniors of the police, gendarmes, prison guards and intelligence officers- 1030
rank and file police officers, gendarmes, prison guards and intelligence personnel- 5138
government officials, land owners, priests, settlers in border regions- 144
18,632 detained people are being kept in the western region of the Ukraine and Belarus
[10,685 are Poles] 

They include: 

former officers- 1207
former intelligence officers of the police and gendarmerie 5141
spies and saboteurs- 347
former land owners, factory owners and government officials- 465
members of various counter-revolutionary and resistance organisations and other counter-revolutionary elements- 5345
escapees- 6127


In view of the fact that all are hardened and uncompromising enemies of Soviet authority, the USSR NKVD considers it necessary: 

[1] To instruct the USSR NKVD that it should try before special tribunals: 

[a] the cases of the 14,700 former Polish officers, government officials,land owners, police officers, intelligence officers, gendarmes, settlers in the border regions and prison guards being held in prisoner-of-war camps; 

* together with the cases of 11,000 members of various counter-revolutionary organisations of spies and saboteurs, former land owners, factory owners, former Polish officers, government officials, and escapees who have been arrested and are being held in the western provinces of the Ukraine and Belarus and apply to them the supreme penalty: shooting. 

[2] Examination of the cases is to be carried out without summoning those detained and without bringing charges, the statements concerning the conclusion of the investigation and the final verdict should be as follows: 

[a] for persons being held in prisoner-of-war camps, in the form of certificates issued by the NKVD of the USSR NKVD; 

 for arrested personnel in the form of certificates issued by the NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR and the NKVD of the Belarus SSR. 

[3] The cases should be examined and the verdict pronounced by a three person tribunal consisting of comrades Merkulov, Kobulov and Bashtakov. 

People's Commissar for the Internal Affairs of the USSR 

L Beria 

[Signed by: Stalin, Voroshilov, Molotov, Mikoyan, Kalinin and Kaganovich]*


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## Wurger (Oct 8, 2008)

And there are their true colours.


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## parsifal (Oct 8, 2008)

Guys

This order does not prove genocide, it proves a war crime, and state sponsored mass murder, but this is different to genocide. Not better, or less culpable, just different....

Compare that to the Nazi liquidation of the eastern european slavic populations, gypsies, and Jews. There was no trial (not that that makes a difference), you were simply hered into a cattle car, after having found to be racially impure, and disposed of in the most efficient manner that the state could devise. First on the list were the Jews, and Hitler had very nearly complewted that in Poland by wars end. However they had made a big start on the other "undesirable minorities by wars end as well. Thats the main reason why Poland suffered more than five million casulaties during the war. The Soviets were perhaps responsible for 300000 deaths, the germans were responsible for the rest...Not that the number makes the difference...just that the Soviets targtetted groups likley to resist their imperial designs on the region.

I dont believe that there are not ethnic Poles living in the eastern provinces today. I believe that they are still there, but because of Stalins policies, there was a frightful toll taken to remove potential agitators against Soviet rule.

To prove the point you need to uncover the proof. Specifically I would like to see evidence that no ethic Poles exist anymore in the east, and that written orders exist requiring the complete liquidation of that population. 

Accusing a country of genocide is a serious business. Simply saying that it happened and then asserting that as "the facts" and accusing others of not accepting "the facts" is not the way to convince people. Providing evidence of the genocide is what is needed. 

Now, this is where my own opinion rests at the oment. I believe that the Soviets committed heinous war crimes against the Polish army at katyn, and elsewhere. I believe that the Russians unlawfully and brutally displaced many Poles during after the war, to gain control of the eastern provinces of Poland. I believe that the russians used any means including murder, rape andtorture, as well as unlawful deterntion to achieve that objective. I dont believe that the Soviets are any better, or worse that the Nazis. The one thing I am not convinced about is that the Soviets are guilty of genocide in the case of Poland (elsewhere they are eg...in the ukraine against the jewish population there).

For the record, genocide is defined as follows:

_Term created after World War II to describe the systematic murder of an entire political, cultural, or religious group. ..._
The El Paso Holocaust Museum - Glossary of Terms

_Systematic, state-sponsored or encouraged killings of members of a specific, identifiable group._
ICONS Project | Research Library | Glossary of Scenario Terms

_killing or extermination of a whole race or nation_
History : History Vocabulary II

_(from the Greek genos ("race") and the suffix -cide, "to kill". The methodical destruction of an ethnic group. Term used for the first time in 1944 in reference to the Nazis' extermination of the Jews_.
Glossary | STRUTHOF


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## parsifal (Oct 8, 2008)

The general plan "Ost"

Formulated after the liquidation of the Polish state in 1939, this is an extract 9again from the ubiquitous wiki)

_Phases of the plan and its implementation
The final version of Generalplan Ost, essentially a grand plan for ethnic cleansing, was divided into two parts; the "Small Plan" (Kleine Planung), which covered actions which were to be taken during the war, and the "Big Plan" (Grosse Planung), which covered actions to be undertaken after the war was won (to be carried into effect gradually over a period of 25-30 years).

GPO envisaged differing percentages of the various conquered nations undergoing Germanisation (for example, 50% of Czechs, 35% of Ukrainians and 25% of Belarusians), extermination, expulsion and other fates, the net effect of which would be to ensure that the conquered territories would be Germanized. In ten years' time, the plan effectively called for the extermination, expulsion, Germanisation or enslavement of most or all East and West Slavs living behind the front lines in Europe. The "Small Plan" was to be put into practice as the Germans conquered the areas to the east of their pre-war borders. In this way the plan for Poland was drawn up at the end of November 1939 and probably is responsible for much of the WWII expulsion of Poles by Germany. After the war, under the "Big Plan", GPO foresaw the eventual expulsion of more than 50 million non-Germanized Slavs of the Eastern Europe through forced migration, as well as some of the Balts (especially almost all of Lithuanians) through "voluntary" migration, beyond the Ural Mountains and into Siberia. In their place, up to 8-10 million Germans would be settled in an extended "living space" (Lebensraum) of the 1000-Year Empire (Tausendjähriges Reich).

*In 1941 it was decided to destroy the Polish nation (believed by the Nazis to be Untermenschen, that is "sub-people"

completely and the German leadership decided that in 10 to 20 years the Polish state under German occupation was to be fully cleared of any ethnic Poles and settled by German colonists.* 

A majority of them, now deprived of their leaders and most of their intelligentsia (through human losses, destruction of culture, and the ban on education above the absolutely basic level), would have to be deported to regions in the East and scattered over as wide an area of Western Siberia as possible, according to the plan resulting in their assimilation by the local populations which would cause the Poles to vanish as a nation. 

*By 1952, only about 3-4 million non-Germanized Poles (all of them peasants) were supposed to be left residing in the former Poland. Those of them who would still not Germanize were to be forbidden to marry, the existing ban on any medical help to Poles in Germany would be extended, and eventually Poles would cease to exist.*


A widely varying policies were envisioned by the creators of GPO and/or employed by Germany in regards to the different Slavic territories and ethnic groups. For example, Einsetzgruppen deaths squads and concentration camps were employed to deal with the Polish elites already by August-September 1939 (Operation Tannenberg, followed by the A-B Aktion in 1940), while the Czech intelligentsia members were to be allowed to emigrate overseas. Parts of Poland were already annexed by Germany early in the war (leaving aside the occupied General Government and the areas perviously annexed by the Soviet Union), while the other territories were officially occupied by or allied to Germany (for example, the Slovak part of Czechoslovakia became a theoretically-independent German puppet state, while the ethnic-Czech part became a "protectorate"). It is unknown in what degree the plan was actually directly connected to the various German war crimes and crimes against humanity in the East, especially in the latter phases of the war (the time the Germans were withdrawing). In any case, majority of Germany's 12 million forced laborers were abducted in the Eastern Europe, mostly in the Soviet territories and Poland (both Slavs and local Jews).

Among charges listed in the indictment presented at the trial of Adolf Eichmann, the SS officer responsible for transportation part of the Final Solution, one was that he was responsible for the deportation of 500,000 Poles. Eichmann was convicted on this count, too, and the sentence assumed he had been motivated by his intention to destroy the intelligentsia class of Polish society.[5]_


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## stasoid (Oct 8, 2008)

Keep talking, Parsifal. Nobody listens anyway. 
This accusation of Russians trying to exterminate Poles is ridiculous even considering that fact that under "russian occupation" Poles had 25 times higher birth rate and population grows from what they have now. Not even mention free housing, healthcare and education.
Poles suffered from Stalin's attrocities no less no more then Russians, Ukrainians and other peoples of the Soviet Empire.


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 8, 2008)

stasoid said:


> Keep talking, Parsifal. Nobody listens anyway.


I'm listening and I warned you once - now put on your dunce cap and sit in the corner. If you behave yourself I'll give you a blue crayon and let you play once again after you learned your lesson.


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## parsifal (Oct 9, 2008)

Guys

I went away and looked once again and looked for this evidence of genocide by the Soviets. I dont profess to be any sort of expert in this field, so my sources are pretty lame (just the wiki articles mostly, but they seem pretty thorough in this case).

I have to apologise. I have changed my view having looked at this article. it appears that the Soviets were pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing, with an estimated 1.5 million Polish casualties in 1939-41 in the Soviet controlled zone of Poland. I confess i didnt realize the magnitude of the slaughter , nor did it occur to me that the Soviets were attempting to alter the demographics of these regions. it appears that the Belorussians and the ukrainians that also occupied these regions were seen as being more sympathetic to the "Sovietization" of the eastern provinces than the ethnic Poles. given that the Russians had viewed the treatment of the ethnic ukrainians and Belorussians in Poland in 1919 and 1920 as a form of abuse in itself (a topic I have not investigated as yet) it starts to make a crazy kind of sense....the russianswere exterminating the Poles to make their control over the regions and their claims of sovereignty more secure.

So please accept my apologies. I simply did not realize the magnitude of the crime, nor the intent behind it

Anyway here is the link for anyone who is interested

Occupation of Poland (1939â€“1945 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


Occupation of Poland (1939â€“1945 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Stasoid, you need to cool it, and not be so confrontational and dogmatic in your approaches. I dont agree with your position, and your "proofs" to support your position are poor. You also need to be a little more respectful toward the feeling for the other members here. Some of them have quite strong feelings, which is understandable. A little lighter footprint is called for on this issue, I would suggest.


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 9, 2008)

Thank you Parsifal....


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## Njaco (Oct 9, 2008)

Great post, Parsifal.


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 9, 2008)

I got a few things to say here....

I've had the opportunity to live and work around Polish ex-pats while living in Canada and while spending time in the suburbs outside of Buffalo NY. I've heard horrific stories from the fathers and grandfathers of those who lived through some of the atrocities mentioned here. I've also met a number of Russians who have immigrated to North America and it seems that some of these folks not only seem to downplay the treatment of the Poles, but also seem to look at them as second class human beings. I make this comment with regard to a troubled few as I know in any race or nationality there are good and bad.

There is absolutely no reason, except for personal prejudice or ignorance to downplay the suffering of the Polish people at the hands of the Soviet Union during WW2 and in the post war years.

My 2 cents - invest it wisely!


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## Njaco (Oct 9, 2008)

My 2 cents is - regardless of whether it was Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russian - 17 September 1939 was a monumental day in Polish history and that is what should be remembered and a moment to reflect on.


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## Wurger (Oct 14, 2008)

THX guys for these words.

Parsifal , I'm very glad you've got the proper information on the matter.


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