# The initial Syraqi offensive is a decisive success that overruns Khuzestan - Was it really?



## ARTESH (Nov 2, 2017)

Hi there guys...

hangin around in the cyber space,

i found this topic:



> Successful Baathist Syria-Iraq | Alternate Timelines



i just write answers to a single phrase of this topic ...



> The initial Syraqi offensive is a decisive success that overruns Khuzestan



I don't know how much do you know about Iran/Iraq War !!!

So, I start from Very First ...

1- Surprise attack of Iraqi Air Force, compeletly Failed due to low Training and Experience of its Pilots.

We only lost a plane that later was repaired.

The day After attack, we showed our merci with 192 planes attacked Iraqi "Valueable Targets".

2- They said We will capture "Khorramshahr" in 1 day, "Khuzistan" in 3 days and "Tehran" in 7 days.

But, they were stopped at so-called "DEJ" -Fortress - s for 3 days.

they were a series of 60 Cement fortress , each one has a garrison of 20, consisted of:

1 M-47 / 48 Medium Tank

1 106 mm Gun

1 M2 .50 cal HMG

1 60 mm Mortar

2 RPG-7 Teams

1 MG 3 A 1 LMG

The Fortresses were crewed by elements of "151st Inf. Bn." .

3- Iranian Gendarmerie Troops had fought with Iraqi forces, back in 1962, 1974 and 1978, each time they were defeated.

4- The Battle of Khoramshahr lasted 34 days !!!

Iranian Forces, Consisted of:

92 Arm. Div. --- 1st Marine Battalion --- Gendarmerie Troops --- Newly Formed "IRGC" volunteers --- "Army Officer College" volunteers --- 

Defended Town to last man, last bullet, last drop of their blood.

4- Iraqi forces could not capture "Abadan" , but sieged it, the siege was later broke during "Samen-ol-Aemmeh" Operation.

5- Iraqi forces were stopped at North-Western Front in 10th day of war.

6- they were stopped in Western front in 27th day of War.

7- they stopped at central Front in the 3rd month of war.

8- They never Captured "Ahvaz" - "Andimeshk" - "Masjed Soleiman" - "Susa" - "Shushtar" - "Ramhormoz" ...

9- in fact, they never "Overrun" Khuzestan Province.

10- they lost their Navy in 67th Day of War. (Op. Morvarid)

11- Single Handed, The Iranian Navy Gunboat "IRIS SHAMSHIR (EN: Sword) - P-227" Under Lt. Zarrabi, had shot down 11 Iraqi planes dung first 3 month of war.

So, was it a Great Victory for them?

Is it counted as an Victory?

Please feel free to comment.

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## michaelmaltby (Nov 2, 2017)

.... I would say that Iraq blundered into Iran and it was a huge miscalculation not unlike Hitler's blunder into Russia but the German were better trained and better disciplined than the Iraqis. 

"Victory?" I would ask about comparative casualties for this time line.
Great thread, please persist.

MM


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 3, 2017)

Wow, I would love to read up more on #11.

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## ARTESH (Nov 3, 2017)

vikingBerserker said:


> Wow, I would love to read up more on #11.



Your Answer from Nav-Ostovar Yekom Toopkhane Daryayee (CSM, Naval Artillery) Amini-Nasab, At-the-time Artillery Officer of the Gunboat P-227:



> Hi,
> 
> First of all, I should say After outbreak of war, 4 Gunboats, Including Shamshir, Kaman, Khadang & Gardouneh, were temporarery became Air defence vessels. adding 1 20 mm Oerliken, 2 M2 .50 cal and 1 DShK 12.7 mm and 2 MANPADs to their normal Artillery, and Crew were arose from 23 to 32 to operate newly added AA Weapons.
> 
> ...

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## parsifal (Nov 3, 2017)

to determine victory, you need to know two things....what were the objectives of each side and were they achieved? secondly if those objectives were achieved, what were the costs of victory?

In my view, the Iraqis were primarily aiming for the capture of khoramshar waterway, which they gained and lost several times. initially the Iraqis held a numerical advantage, (particularly in tanks and aircraft) . the Iranians however fought surprisingly well and western sources estimate losses in these early battles to favour the Iranians. For the next 8 years after 1980, a bloodbath ensued, with both sides at various times pushing forward, only to be pushed back at some later date. It was, from the western perspective a bloody stalemate.

The Iran–Iraq War is considered the deadliest conventional war ever fought between regular armies of developing countries since WWII, exceeding the human costs suffered in vietnam. and disregarding the genocides in Rwanda We simply don’t have a precise casualty list, however, Iraqi casualties are estimated at 105,000–200,000 killed, while about 400,000 had been wounded and some 70,000 taken prisoner. Thousands of civilians on both sides died in air raids and ballistic missile attacks. Many prisoners were simply executed without trial, but many went into custody. Prisoners taken by both countries began to be released in 1990, though some were not released until more than 10 years after the end of the conflict. Cities on both sides had also been considerably damaged. The condition of the two country’s military forces probably favoured Iran, and most analysts believe Iran had been bloodied to a greater extent. But in all honesty, both regimes had been severely hurt by this conflict.


According to Iranian government sources, the war cost Iran an estimated 200,000–220,000 killed, but western intelligence puts the casualty figures for Iran slightly higher at 262,000. This includes 123,220 combatants, 60,711 MIA (some desertions, some captured and euphamistically “disappeared”, others simply unnaccounted for). Iranian civilian casualties were estimated by western intelligence to be between 11,000–16,000. Combatants include 79,664 members of the Revolutionary Guards and additional 35,170 soldiers from the Iranian Regular army. Iranian PoWs comprise 42,875 people (but the iraqis executed more and didn’t admit to these captures). Iranian casualties, they were captured and kept in Iraqi detention centers from 2.5 to more than 15 years after the war was over. According to the Janbazan Affairs Organization, 398,587 Iranians sustained injuries that required prolonged medical and health care following primary treatment, including 52,195 (13%) injured due to the exposure to Iranian chemical weapons agents. From 1980 to 2012, 218,867 Iranians died due to war injuries. This includes 33,430 civilians, mostly women and children. More than 144,000 Iranian children were orphaned as a consequence of these deaths. There are some arabic sourcces that estimate put Iranian casualties up to 600,000, but these don’t seem credible.

Estimating losses is hard, because both Iraq and Iran manipulated loss figures to suit their purposes.

It is hard to accept the notion that either side “won”, given the enormous losses and virtually no gains or objectives reached and then held.

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## michaelmaltby (Nov 4, 2017)

There is precious little on the Iran-Iraq war but the best descriptions, especially the gas attacks WW1 style, that I have come upon are in Robert Fisk's book The Great War for Civilization: The Conquest of the Middle East.

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## parsifal (Nov 4, 2017)

I will have to look for it. meanwhile, we seem to have an eyewitness account right here.

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## michaelmaltby (Nov 4, 2017)

... indeed. 
I was in Iraq on business - film business - 4 months before the start of the war. Two days after the war started I got a call from the Iraqi Embassy in Ottawa telling me the funding I had requested for my project had been approved and I was to come to Baghdad to formally sign the paperwork. I think what they really wanted was westerners to document their venture ... I was well into another film project and was able to thank them but no thanks.
While I was there I toured a film set for a major historical drama about the Iraqis holding off a massive Persian Army ... strangely, the set was within close radius of an Iraqi AFB and I was able to watch MIGs and SUKOIs practicing low level landing approaches, but filming using the set as a soundstage would be very frustrating. I was impressed by the variable swing wing on the MIGs .... I'm guessing that Iranian gunboat got some of those boys.

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## michaelmaltby (Nov 5, 2017)

..... this is an interesting, unknown in the west, event

In 1986, the Iraqis Wrecked Their Own Attempt to Get an Iranian F-14

and this

Jalil Zandi - Wikipedia

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## Marcel (Nov 5, 2017)

The Iraq - Iran war was one of the major drama's in the world. I don't believe anybody won, only that everybody lost. A whole generation was lost there.

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## ARTESH (Nov 5, 2017)

Just Completed this PDF.

I hope You Enjoy.

http://cdn.persiangig.com/download/8yo1QRKbKi/F. Javid-Nia.pdf/dl

F. Javid-Nia

Viewing image 6ys27.pdf


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 5, 2017)

List of Iranian aerial victories during the Iran–Iraq war - Wikipedia

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## swampyankee (Nov 5, 2017)

I remember hearing that Iraq was court martialling pilots who had their aircraft damaged by ground file. I think the technical term for this sort of policy is "hideously stupid."

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## ARTESH (Nov 5, 2017)

swampyankee said:


> I remember hearing that Iraq was court martialling pilots who had their aircraft damaged by ground file. I think the technical term for this sort of policy is "hideously stupid."


I never heard that.

I don't think so.

But I know they Shot Several pilots doe to rejections for Chemical bombing of Iranian "Non-Military" Targets.

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## michaelmaltby (Nov 5, 2017)

four fifths of the Iranian air force had been trained in the US and when the Islamic Revolution descended they were all "suspect" ... many chose exile, some were jailed, some were executed ... and a few were resurrected when the air force needed them ... like Soviet aircraft designers under Stalin in WW1.

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## ARTESH (Nov 5, 2017)

michaelmaltby said:


> four fifths of the Iranian air force had been trained in the US and when the Islamic Revolution descended they were all "suspect" ... many chose exile, some were jailed, some were executed ... and a few were resurrected when the air force needed them ... like Soviet aircraft designers under Stalin in WW1.


Sadegh Khalkhali - Wikipedia


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## tyrodtom (Nov 5, 2017)

michaelmaltby said:


> List of Iranian aerial victories during the Iran–Iraq war - Wikipedia


 I notice on that list is a Mig 21 shot down by a Cobra helicopter with it's 20mm cannon.

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## michaelmaltby (Nov 6, 2017)

.... some shootin'


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