# Flight 19 A/C



## Ken Martin (Jun 28, 2017)

Hi I'm new here and I first read about flight 19 in elementary school and I still read about to now. But one thing has crossed my mind, even if the planes are found, positively identified and brought up, could they be restored to airworthiness?


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## Crimea_River (Jun 28, 2017)

Welcome aboard.

"Restored" is a bit of a tricky term in that a true restoration would mean bringing an aircraft to its original condition. In most cases, such a restoration would not pass today's standards for issuing certificates of airworthiness. Many of today's flying warbirds are therefore built of new and better materials where the original materials have corroded or have become damaged beyond repair.

Realistically, the creation of a flyable Avenger from the wrecks of Flight 19 would involve a complete rebuild around one of the aircrafts' data plate and LOTS of money.


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## Ken Martin (Jun 29, 2017)

So could all five be flyable again or would they be put in a museum?


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## XBe02Drvr (Jun 29, 2017)

Ken Martin said:


> So could all five be flyable again or would they be put in a museum?





Crimea_River said:


> Realistically, the creation of a flyable Avenger from the wrecks of Flight 19 would involve a complete rebuild around one of the aircrafts' data plate and LOTS of money.


 X 5! = LOTS & LOTS & LOTS & LOTS & LOTS of money!!!!!


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## Ken Martin (Jun 29, 2017)

For a brief estimate or a guesstimate, how much?


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## XBe02Drvr (Jun 29, 2017)

Five times more than you'll ever have in your piggy bank!
Ask GregP, he's in the business.


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## Crimea_River (Jun 29, 2017)

Forgetting the cost of finding and raising them, I'd estimate $20MM for 5.


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## Ken Martin (Jun 29, 2017)

After salvage how long would rebuilding and reprinting the planes take depending on the condition of the planes?


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## Crimea_River (Jun 29, 2017)

How long is a rope?


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## Shortround6 (Jun 29, 2017)

What the guys are trying to say is all that would be usable from the wrecks would be the data plate 





Everything else would have to built new. How long depends on how many workers you have, 20 or 200 and your facilities.


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## Crimea_River (Jun 29, 2017)

Another variable is worker density. Let's suppose that it would take 50,000 manhours to build one aircraft. That would equate to 25 guys working on the plane full time for a year. It also equates to 10,000 guys working for 5 hours. Which is correct? It boils down to how many work fronts you can create and put people to work on efficiently and the answer to that is beyond my knowledge.


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## Ken Martin (Jun 29, 2017)

If the restoration/rebuild is successful for all five, and the planes can fly again, what air museum would accept them? Any candidates?


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## MiTasol (Jul 2, 2017)

Crimea_River said:


> Another variable is worker density. Let's suppose that it would take 50,000 manhours to build one aircraft. That would equate to 25 guys working on the plane full time for a year. It also equates to 10,000 guys working for 5 hours. Which is correct? It boils down to how many work fronts you can create and put people to work on efficiently and the answer to that is beyond my knowledge.



Ah yes

The old if one man makes one women pregnant and produces one child in nine months then nine men will cause the woman to produce a child in one month fallacy.

As you say - _it depends on the work fronts_ to a certain extent but also the number of each tool available do no-one is waiting for a tool, the volume of the work area so that they are not getting in each others way, how many are required for coordination to ensure only the correct quantity of each part is made and no parts are not made, that part X is not fitted before part A because often part A can only be fitted before part X, etc etc

Your conclusion though, _the answer to that is beyond my knowledge, _is perfectly correct for anyone I have ever met.


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## Crimea_River (Jul 2, 2017)

Not just tools, but also materials. Lack of materials can be one of the biggest factors for reduced efficiency.


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## Gnomey (Jul 7, 2017)

Shortround6 said:


> What the guys are trying to say is all that would be usable from the wrecks would be the data plate
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Basically sums it up. You're going to need very deep pockets...


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## Ken Martin (Jul 8, 2017)

Would the planes be at a diveable depth or would an ROV have to be sent down?


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## Tkdog (Jul 17, 2017)

Knowing that would take knowing where they are.


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## Ken Martin (Jul 24, 2017)

Even after 72 years underwater and if the planes are brought up with intact engines and propellers, could the engines be restarted or would they have to be replaced?


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## fubar57 (Jul 25, 2017)

I think the salt water would ruin the engines....along with 99% of the rest of the aircraft


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## MiTasol (Jul 25, 2017)

Magnesium parts such as used in instruments and many airframe parts such as pedals and levers can dissolve rapidly depending on the natural chemicals in the water and the water temperature. A crashed Cessna I was involved with post salvage in the 70s was only in the water for a couple of weeks in a actively volcanic area near the equator yet all the magnesium parts were substantially dissolved through chemical reactions with the water and/or dissimilar metal corrosion. They acted like the sacrificial anode used on small boats but much faster.


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## Ken Martin (Jul 25, 2017)

What about the turrets and the propellers? Could those be rebuilt or would they have to be replaced along with the engines?


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## Robert Porter (Jul 25, 2017)

The answer to all of the above is "it depends", it depends on where they are, how deep, did they break up on impact with the water, what is the temperature of the water, on and on and on. So really no one knows. I am unaware of ANY aircraft salvaged from ocean water after 70 years that was in any way or shape restorable with the original equipment and fittings. Generally a lot of rebuilding and replacing is done. By the time the aircraft is restored to even static display the majority of what you see is not what was recovered. To restore to flight after that long underwater would be I think impossible. You might possibly salvage a data plate or two but it would be mostly a new aircraft.

Some aircraft have been salvaged from cold freshwater to static display with a lot of the original components etc, but salt water is very corrosive and depending on marine growth and temperature in the area can literally dissolve an engine block over time.


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## Ken Martin (Jul 25, 2017)

So the planes would not fly again?


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## Crimea_River (Jul 25, 2017)

Really?


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## Shortround6 (Jul 25, 2017)

Ken Martin said:


> So the planes would not fly again?



What part of Post #10 didn't you get?

After 70 years in tropical waters the engines would be one large lump of corroded together metal the large parts of the airframe would have corroded away with any remaining parts so reduced in thickness or riddled with holes as to be worthless as a part for an airworthy plane.

try googling "Underwater airplane wreck"


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## XBe02Drvr (Jul 26, 2017)

In the Florida keys in 1972 a Cherokee from our flying club ditched in shallow water after an engine failure. No damage,no injuries, just wash and rinse to get the salt out, should be good to go, right? Nope! It was Friday afternoon and the feds up in Miami told us to put a guard on it 24/7, don't let anyone touch it, they'd be down sometime next week to take a look at it.
Long story short, after one weekend in the water it was a total write-off. Instruments shot, engine shot, airframe structure corroded everywhere chafing or fastener holes had penetrated the cladding.
Cheers,
Wes


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## swampyankee (Jul 26, 2017)

Try this demo: The real reactivity of aluminium- Learn Chemistry to see what salt does. Sea water is complex, with many types of salts dissolved. Chloride ions attack the oxide coating.


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## stona (Jul 26, 2017)

See electrochemical series. The light metals used in aircraft construction are near the top. I'm not going to give a chemistry lesson here, but a gold plated aircraft would last a lot longer 
Cheers
Steve


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