# Greatest Fighter Pilot Revisited... New Poll Listings....



## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

Ok... More indepth Poll choices....


----------



## Yeomanz (Jan 8, 2005)

Hans joachim definately 8)


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 8, 2005)

Wow, I agree with you for once... 



I CAN FINALLY VOTE, and did!

Jochi was the best, by far. 8)


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

This is gonna be an interesting Poll.....

BTW, that is as many pilots as i could list.. It wont allow any more options..... I had to remove some choices I originally put up there.... All of them were sub par to whats left up there...


----------



## Adolf Galland (Jan 8, 2005)

noooooo wut about galland?


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

H e was up there, but I removed him in favor of Heinz Bar....


----------



## Lightning Guy (Jan 8, 2005)

I've gotta go with Marseille. Had he survived, I feel certain he would have been the top scorer of the war and his competition was far tougher that fan contemporary pilots were facing on the Eastern Front.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 9, 2005)

i'll proberly go for johnson..........


----------



## Yeomanz (Jan 9, 2005)

Lightning Guy said:


> I've gotta go with Marseille. Had he survived, I feel certain he would have been the top scorer of the war and his competition was far tougher that fan contemporary pilots were facing on the Eastern Front.



shame about his unfortunate engine problem with his G-2


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 9, 2005)

Tom McGuire...

I dont think Pipsy will be too happy that Priller isnt up there


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 9, 2005)

Priller was up there, but unfortunatly he had to come off to get the poll listed... Thats the MAX # of options available....

15......

It was hard enough just trying to put the best names up there... A top 15???? HA!!!! U try it...... Hehe....


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 9, 2005)

"Pipsy" now is it.........


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 9, 2005)

LMAO..... Pipsy sounds so gay......

Like its an abbreviation for Pippy Longstockings or something......

UUUUGGggggghhhhhhh.....


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 9, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> Priller was up there, but unfortunatly he had to come off to get the poll listed... Thats the MAX # of options available....
> 
> 15......
> 
> It was hard enough just trying to put the best names up there... A top 15???? HA!!!! U try it...... Hehe....



I havent even heard of 3 of those people up there


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 9, 2005)

Which 3?? I would love to inform u on them.......


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 9, 2005)

Tetsuzo Iwamoto, Marmaduke Pattle and the one with Sailor in his name...


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 9, 2005)

PO3c Tetsuzo IWAMOTO (80+/14), 
12th Kokutai, 2nd Hikotai, 1938. 

Iwamoto joined the 12th Ku in China in February 1938 and became the top Navy ace during the China Incident with 14 kills. He was assigned to the Zuikaku AG as a shotaicho in 1941 and participated in the Pearl Harbor attack ("EII-102") flying combat air patrol over the fleet, on operations in the Indian Ocean and in the Battle of Coral Sea. In August 1942 he was transferred as instructor to Oppama Kokutai. 

In March 1943 he was posted to 281 Kokutai on Paramushir Island in Northern Japan. His next assignments were with 204 Ku and 253 Ku at Rabaul. In February 1944 he withdrew to Truk and fought in air defense operations at this base. He later flew with 252 Ku and 203 Ku in the Philippines, Taiwan and over Okinawa.

He survived the war. By his own account he claimed some 202 victories, 142 over Rabaul alone! After surviving 8 years of war he succumbed to blood poisoning at the age of 38. 

Popular Confirmed Victories are around 80....

"I lowered my altitude to go below the cloud level, then climbed up from outside the cloud to confirm. Sure enough, there were eight box-kite like P-38s flying in a single column. We go into combat at the same altitude.

At the altitude of 4000 meteres (13,000ft), the Zero model 21 could pursue the P-38 with ease. The twin engine fighter also provided a big target.

I shot down one P-38 on my first pass, and our flight eventually shot down six of them , but the remaining two fled into the clouds, and we could not catch them."

Tetsuzo Iwamoto, describing combat on Nov 20, '43 over Rabaul.
Zerosen Gekitsui-o ,Tetsuzo Iwamoto ISBN4-7698-2050


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 9, 2005)

Marmaduke Pattle, the son of English parents, was born in Butterworth, South Africa, on 3rd July, 1914. After leaving school he joined the South African Air Force (SAAF) as a cadet. 

In 1936 Pattle moved to England where he joined the Royal Air Force. A member of 80 Squadron he was sent to Egypt two years later to take command of B Flight. 

Flight Commander Pattle first saw action in the Second World War on 4th August 1940 over Libya when he shot down two Italian aircraft. He was also downed and it took him two days to walk back to the Egyptian border. Over the next few months Pattle obtained twenty victories during the Desert War. 

In November 1940 Pattle was sent to Greece where he took command of 33 Squadron. On 6th April, 1941, the German Army invaded Greece. Pattle and his pilots now had the problem of dealing with the Luftwaffe. 

On Sunday 20th April, Pattle led his men against a large formation of Messerschmitt 110 over Eleusis Bay, near Athens. Heavily outnumbered, Pattle was killed while going to the aid of a colleague in difficulties. By the time of his death Marmaduke Pattle had fifty victories making him the RAF's top-scoring pilots of the war.

Squadron Leader Marmaduke "Pat" Pattle was the highest scoring pilot of the RAF and Commonwealth Air Forces during World War 2, with 51 "Kills". Pattle claimed all of his victories in North Africa and Greece, he was the top scoring pilot in both the Gladiator and Hurricane. A gifted flyer and natural marksman he took infinite pains to improve his talents, doing exercises to improve his distance vision and sharpen his reflexes. His first 15 victories were in the antiquated Gloucester Gladiator, 9 more victories followed in a Hurricane. Then over 39 days he shot down no less than 26 enemy aircraft. He scored his victories in less than nine months of active warfare. This gives some idea of the almost incredible ability of this great fighter pilot, of whom his friends said: "He flies like a bird". 

Marmaduke "Pat" Pattle was born in Butterworth, Cape Province, South Africa, on 3 July 1914, the son of English parents who had emigrated to the Union. He attended Keetman’s Hoop Secondary School, South West Africa, and Victoria Boy’s High School, Grahamstown. He joined the SAAF as a cadet on leaving school, but in 1936 transferred to the RAF, completing his training in the UK in 1937 and joining 80 Squadron, which had just re-equipped with Gladiator biplanes. In April 1938 he accompanied the unit to Egypt, where by 1939 he had become a flight commander. In August 1940 the unit moved up to the Libyan border, where he first saw action. 

On 4th August, 1940, in his first action, fighting against 27 Italian aircraft, with only three other Gladiators, he shot down two(one Fiat CR42, one Breda Ba 65) but was himself shot down, and walked back to the Egyptian border to be picked up by the British Army. He and Peter Wykeham-Barnes were the first members of the "Late Arrivals Club", which was founded much later in Cairo. The members of this Club used to receive a badge depicting winged flying boots and a certificate saying 'This airman when obliged to abandon his aircraft on the ground or in the air as the result of unfriendly action by the enemy, succeeded in returning to his Squadron on foot or by other means long after his estimated time of arrival. It's never too late to come back". Pat, on that occasion, was over 48 hours late. 

On the 8th August, 1940, the Squadron shot down nine confirmed and six damaged(Pat getting two Fiat CR 42s) for the loss of two Gladiators. On 15th September, as Sailor Malan was leading his Squadron in the Battle of Britain over South-East England, so Pat Pattle led "B" Flight against the Italians over Libya and damaged a Savoia SM 79. No.80 Squadron was by then at Sidi Haneish and "B" Flight was detached to Bir Kenayis in October, getting Mk 2 Gladiators by November, and moving to Abu Suweir en route to Greece on 9th November 1940, arriving at Eleusis, 15 miles from Athens on the 18th. They made their first Greek sortie from Trikkala on 19th, shooting down nine confirmed and two possibles, of which Pat got two CR 42s. 

Torrential rain kept them grounded until 25th November but thereafter they continued to shoot down Italians almost at will, and Pat took command of the Squadron at Yiannina, the CO being still at Trikkala. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross and with his score at 11 confirmed, plus a share in two, held the Middle East record at that time. The official citation read: "In all his engagements he has been absolutely fearless and undeterred by superior numbers of the emeny.'' Pat flew Hurricanes from Paramythia from mid-February 1941, and on the 28th, during a wide-ranging series of engagements over the front, he claimed four victories during the day, followed by three more on 4 March over Albania. 

When a Bar to his DFC was gazetted early in March, Pattle was already credited with 23 victories. At that point he was promoted and given command of 33 Squadron, which had also now reached Greece. On 6 April 1941 the Germans invaded Greece and during the rest of the month the RAF fighters were engaged in increasingly chaotic conditions, as the Greek and British forces were forced into retreat. His initial claims against the Luftwaffe were documented, but increasingly, loss of records for the month has forced reliance upon diaries and memoirs - particularly the diary maintained by his fitter, W.J. Ringrose. Whilst many of the April claims did not receive official confirmation or recognition, it does appear that by 20th his score had reached at least 50, making him the RAF's top-scoring pilot of the war. 

On Sunday, 20th April 1941, Hitler's birthday, he still had a high temperature and was undoubtedly a very sick man. Despite this, he insisted on taking off to follow the remnants of Nos. 80 and 33 Squadrons to meet more than 100 enemy aircraft. With 15 other Hurricanes, which were the only fighters left in Greece, he swept into battle and was about 1,000 feet above a defensive circle of Bf 110s when he saw a single Hurricane climbing towards them, and then a single Bf 110 peel off from the circle to dive at the Hurricane. Pat swooped through the Bf 110s to protect the lone Hurricane's tail. He must have known that the 110s would follow him, but he pulled up under the first 110 which was firing into the Hurricane and shot it down in flames, thereby saving the life of Timber Woods(who after shooting down two 110s was himself shot down and killed later in the day). Pat pulled his Hurricane up and round and dived into a space between the 110s, shooting down another 110 in flames as he did so. He was last seen diving in flames, slumped forward across his instrument panel, and his aircraft fell into Eleusis bay. 

Pat Pattle was the most successful fighter pilot of the RAF and Commonwealth Air Forces in the 1939-45 war; that he has never been officially acknowledged as such is due to the fact that the British Ministry of Defence is not in a position to confirm his victories. His last official score was 23 in the citation for his Bar to the DFC in March 1941. All official records of the last few weeks in Greece were destroyed. The operations record book of No.33 Squadron RAF, written from memory and intelligence summaries, confirms that he destroyed many more enemy aircraft during those few weeks in which he commanded that Squadron(which command, and even his posting to the Squadron, are not recorded officially). 

There is no doubt that he was the highest scoring pilot of the RAF and Commonwealth Air Forces; he would have cared nothing for this. That he died, trying to save his friend, would have been enough for Tom Pattle, one of South Africa's greatest air heroes and leaders, and one of the most modest and charming of men.


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 9, 2005)

Adolph Gysbert Malan was born on October 3rd 1910 in Wellington, South Africa. By the age of 14 he was a sea cadet on the training ship General Botha and then joined the Union Castle Steamship Line in 1927

In 1935, Malan had been accepted by the RAF on a short service commission and started flight training in early 1936. In December of that same year he was posted to 74 Squadron at Hornchurch and became a Flight Commander one year later

After the outbreak of war, Malan went into action with 74 Squadron, with their newly equipped Spitfires, over the beaches of Dunkirk. On May 21 1940 he scored his first victories just off the coast at Dunkirk destroying a Ju88, a He111 and damaged another Ju88. On May 22nd he shared the destruction of a Ju88, on the 24th he shared a Do17 and destroyed a He111. On May 27th during his last combat over Dunkirk he shot down a Bf109, shared a Do17 and damaged two more

For his action Malan was awarded the DFC on June 11th 1940 and a week later during a night operation on June18th, he shot down two He111’s

As the first phase of the Battle of Britain got underway, Malan shared the destruction of a He111 on July 12th, scored a probable victory on a Bf109 on July 19th, damaged a Bf109 on July 25th and shot down a Bf109 and damaged a second on July 28th

It was during this early period of the battle that Malan, famously, disregarded the “textbook” formations and tactics of aerial combat. He firstly ordered that the machine guns on his Spitfire be re-aligned to a shooting distance of 250 yards, instead of the recommended 400 yards. He abandoned the “3 aircraft Vic” formation for a more unconventional four aircraft in-line attack. Within his squadron, Malan issued his unofficial “Ten Commandments” of aerial fighting

Although Malan did not conform to the official “system”, he carried much respect from higher authority right up to and including Winston Churchill. He regularly discussed battle tactics with Air Vice Marshall Keith Park (AOC of 11 Group) and although he did not fully believe in Bader’s “Big Wing” theory, Malan did urge Park to allow the formation of these squadrons to be assembled by 12 Group north of London

During August he was given command of 74 Squadron on the 8th, shot down two Bf109’s, damaged a third on the 11th and shot down two Do17’s on the 13th. His victories continued into the conflict when he shot down a Ju88 and damaged another on September 11th, claimed a probable Bf109 on October 17th and destroyed a Bf109 on October 22nd

On November 23rd he shot down a Bf109, then destroyed a Bf109 and shared another on November 27th. Malan shot down another Bf109 on December 2nd a few weeks before he was awarded the DSO on Christmas Eve

Malan scored his last victories for 74 Squadron in February 1941 when he shot down a Bf109 on the 2nd and shared a Do17 on the 5th. He was then posted to lead the Biggin Hill Wing on March 10th where he remained until August. During this period at Biggin Hill, Malan shot down twelve Bf109’s, probably another Bf109, shared two more Bf109’s and damaged nine more. On July 22nd he was awarded a Bar to his DSO

In August he was posted to 58 OTU in Grangemouth as Chief Flight Instructor before travelling to the USA, two months later, with several other pilots to meet and lecture with the US Army Air Corps. By the end of 1941, Malan was back in the UK commanding the CGS (Central Gunnery School) where he remained until early 1943

January 1st 1943, Malan was posted back to Biggin Hill as the Station Commander and although he flew on several operations he scored no more victories. After taking sick leave, he was given the command of 19 Fighter Wing 2nd TAF (Tactical Air Force) on November 1st 1943

In March 1944 he took command of 145 Wing, which consisted of 329, 340, 341 Squadrons (French). On D-Day, Malan led a Section of 340 Squadron as escorts to Horsa gliders being towed. A few months later, in July, he was posted as CO (Commanding Officer) of the Advanced Gunnery School. He then moved to the RAF Staff College in 1945 to undertake a course

Deciding not to stay in the RAF, Malan was released in 1946 with the rank of Group Captain and along with his British awards, he was decorated with the Croix de Guerre (Belgian), Croix de Guerre (French) and the Czech Military Cross. He moved back to South Africa with his family

Adolph “Sailor” Malan died on September 17th 1963 in South Africa, a few weeks before his 53rd birthday


----------



## The Jagdflieger Pips (Jan 9, 2005)

I'm Pipsy.  Because.. Pips would just kill me for taking his name. And besides, I'm not a guy, so I can have a strange name like that. 

Galland and Pips should be up there..  Not that my opinion'll do anything.

And I don't know enough about Galland to defend his position or whatever.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 9, 2005)

I agree...the Fact that Priller shot down more Spitfires than anyone should earn him a place on the list alone...


----------



## The Jagdflieger Pips (Jan 9, 2005)

_And_ Leading Jagdgeschwader 26. 

And I have a story.. 

101 victory ace, Josef "Pips" Priller, relates a perfect attack in 1941. "I saw a lone Spitfire in a north-westerly direction over land (France) at 6,000 meters. I flew after it, approaching to twenty meters without being observed. Then I opened fire with all my weapons from behind and beneath it. The bottom of the fuselage started smoking; pieces then broke off the fuselage and wings. The plane pulled up, stalled, and fell away to the left. I saw the Spitfire hit the water. The pilot had not bailed out." 

 One of 68 Spitfires...


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 9, 2005)

Well, for me to add him I have to remove someone from the list...

Who do u suggest???


----------



## Erich (Jan 9, 2005)

what no night fighter pilots ?? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 9, 2005)

I had Schnaufer on there..... But I had to eliminate about 10 guys off th e poll I made.. It only allows 15 options..... So i had to round it off a bit... A bunch of Luftwaffe guys got removed.....


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 9, 2005)

keep johnson on, he's the only brit up there


----------



## Erich (Jan 9, 2005)

ok then day fighter boyz it is. Heinz Bär it is without any doubt. the man flew all different a/c types with several different JG unit's from early on in the war through the hell of the Reichsverteidigung winding up flying rocket assisted Me 262's in EJG 2. Marseille didn't and Hartmann had easy pickings on the Ost front.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 9, 2005)

i can't believe no one's voted for johnson yet............


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 9, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> Well, for me to add him I have to remove someone from the list...
> 
> Who do u suggest???




Iwamoto, I don't think many have heard of him - at least I haven't!


*EDIT*~Well, him or McCampbell...


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 9, 2005)

Remove someone with no votes yet...

Just realised Nowotny isnt there either...tut tut tut...


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jan 9, 2005)

Iwamoto was credited with I think 80 victories, give or take.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 9, 2005)

Perhaps we should terminate this poll and create one everyones happy with in the off-topic section or something...


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jan 9, 2005)

I was merely stating that I've heard of Iwamoto, not that I'm unhappy with the poll.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 9, 2005)

I know but there seems to be a few complaints...see what les has to say...


----------



## The Jagdflieger Pips (Jan 9, 2005)

I'm not really complaining, nor want to be a problem.. :\ Just trying to back up my opinion.. 

*shrug* I would do the same for Galland, but I don't know enough about him, like I said. :\

I'll just go with Marseille.


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 9, 2005)

WE can redo the poll.. lock and remake a new one... I will eliminate the name that have no votes, and probably wont get any..

I tried to make is varied... Guess that wont work.. 
Im going to add Priller, Nowotny, Galland, Schnaufer

Any others I should add on there that I may have missed.....

Theres 8 guys with votes... Add in the 4 more I listed above.... Thats 12....

Who do u want me to add for the other 3?????

Erich, any other Nightfighters that might fit the bill other than Schnaufer????

WHO ARE THE OTHER 3 GUYS??????


----------



## Erich (Jan 9, 2005)

Les, the highest scoring German nf pilots would be Helmut Lent with over 110.

Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein with 83.

my personal thoughts would be for a nf chap freind Heinz Rökker with 64 kills and still living. what a super guy

or maybe Paul Zorner with 59, still living


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 9, 2005)

Erich, unless Im mistaken, Heinz Schnaufer was the leading NF Ace with 121 Kills, including 114 bombers....

Ill remake this thread with the following names.... Chime in if u can think of a change.....

1) James Johnson 38 Kills
2) Sailor Malan 32 Kills
3) Dick Bong 40 Kills
4) Thomas McGuire 38 Kills
5) Ivan Kozhedub 62 Kills

6) Hiroyoshi Nishizawa 87 Kills
7) Erich Hartmann 352 Kills 6 X P-51's
8) Erich Rudorffer 224 Kills 40 X Spits, 58 X IL2's (86 Kills West, 138 Kills East)
9) Heinz Bar 221 Kills 10 X P-51's, 10 X P-47's (125 kills West, 96 Kills East)
10) Heinz Schnaufer 121 NF Kills 114 X Bombers
11) Pips Priller 101 Kills 69 X Spits
12) Adolf Galland 103 Kills 50 X Spits
13) Walter Nowotny 259 Kills
14) Heinrich Bartels 99 Kills 14 X P-38's, 11 X P-51's, 9 X P-47's
15) Hans Marseille 158 Kills

Other Choices....
Helmut Wick 56 Kills 42 Kills BoB (Leading Ace) 24 X Spits
Gerhard Barkhorn 301 Kills
Werner Molders 101 Kills
Anton Hackl 192 Kills 34 X Bombers
Otto Kittel 267 Kills 94 X IL2's
Gunther Rall 275 Kills
Egon Mayer 102 Kills 12 X P-47's
Eino Juutilainen 94 Kills (Finnish)
Prince Constantine Cantacuzene 60 kills (Romanian)
Pierre Closterman 33 Kills
Greg Boyington 28 Kills
George "Buzz" Beurling 32 kills (Added NonSkim)

Any other Choices????
Speak up now.......


----------



## Lightning Guy (Jan 10, 2005)

Marseille never flew those updated fighter because he never had the chance. His marksmanship was exceptional and IMO that places him above everyone else in the list.

C.C. a Brit who hasn't heard of Marmaduke Pattle or Sailor Malan? Oh that is rich! Malan only wrote the Ten Rules of air combat which was the basis of British tactics for the majority of the war.


----------



## Medvedya (Jan 10, 2005)

Just a bit of random trivia - Roald Dahl flew in the same squadron as Pat Pattle and was in the same dogfight in which Pattle finally got shot down.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 10, 2005)

Interesting! 8) Hehe, LG I dont know hardly a thing about British aces...

Thats a point, what about Douglas Bader?


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 10, 2005)

Thats really sad CC, but then, if ur forte is only planes........

I dont know how anyone could be interested in WWII aircraft but NOT the men (and women) that piloted them.....

Still havent got any word as to remaking this poll..... Anyone have another name to reinsert before I remake????


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 10, 2005)

Don't do it yet, wait a while until a good amount of people vote in my poll...


That way we can see which country should have the most choices, as well as potential choices and tentative lists...


----------

