# Ground crews....



## Lucky13 (Mar 12, 2007)

Before I introduce myself I thought that I make a wee poll here, just for fun.
I have noticed that there's alot of different polls about best fighter, best pilot etc. etc. But aren't we forgetting someone? What about all those ground crews that kept our beloved birds and heroes flying AND painted all that fantastic noseart? So, who do you think was the most skilled at solving the problems that they faced? Thinking of shortage of materials, missing tools, weather conditions etc....


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## Wildcat (Mar 12, 2007)

My vote goes to the RAAF and USAAF groundcrews in the PTO. These blokes had to overcome not only enemy action but the harsh conditions of the jungle which took there toll on not only the men but also the machines. This coupled with vast supply lines which stretched replacements and spares were all obstacles that had to be overcome to keep the a/c in the air.
I've read many instances where RAAF squadrons had to beg, borrow and steal American tools and equipment and even dumped a/c wrecks just to maintain their a/c. 75 sqn RAAF ground crew had to mount steel tubing to their P-40's as a crude gun sight because the reflector sites where U/S is one example.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Mar 12, 2007)

Hello Lucky13! Nice to see someone new from the Commonwealth. Good thing that it's not just Yanks here. 

I dunno yet what to vote for. I suppose the USA would be the on the spot one, because so many US pilots and aircrews praised them so highly. 

I don't know as much about ground crews from other countries.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 12, 2007)

Well my vote goes for the Luftwaffe. I believe the USAAF had the best airforce of WW2 but the reason I go with the Luftwaffe for ground crews is because it simply was amazing what they had to do to keep those aircraft in the air in the later parts of the war.

I completly agree though that the ground crews are well deserving of mention. I myself was a Blackhawk Crewchief in the US Army. Granted I did plenty of time flying missions on the Blackhawk but when we landed it was my job to maintain her and keep her in the air.

Without groundcrews that aircraft is not leaving the ground.


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## csrruss (Mar 12, 2007)

Well in the beging of the war i would say that German air force had the best ground crew ,but towards the end of the war the U.S did. But i am placing my vote with the Germans.


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## comiso90 (Mar 12, 2007)

I vote for USAAF, USN, USMC only because they were all listed together. If USAAF were listed alone, I would vote for the Germans.

The USMC operated in conditions as austere as any.
The USN had unique challenges

I think the 8th AF crews must have had a terrible time keeping those bombers in the air.

Split them up and the Luftwaffe has the edge. The Allies as a whole never experienced the constant harassment that the Jerry’s had to experience.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 12, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Without groundcrews that aircraft is not leaving the ground.



Without maintainers, pilots are nothing more than good-looking pedestrians with expensive sunglasses....8)


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Mar 12, 2007)

LOL!



> I go with the Luftwaffe for ground crews is because it simply was amazing what they had to do to keep those aircraft in the air in the later parts of the war.



I agree. Maybe I'll vote Lutwaffe too. 

The Allied ground crews in Britain had few worries from the Luftwaffe to deal with and lots of supplies to boot.


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## bigZ (Mar 13, 2007)

Went for Finland for managing to keep those allied made aircraft flying throughout the continuation war. Still using the Brewster uptill 48 and solved a problem plaguing the Wright Cyclone engine by inverting one of the piston rings in each cylinder, thus enhancing the engine reliability. 

Is the victory ratio of 26:1 for Finnish Buffallos the highest in WWII?


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## Emac44 (Mar 14, 2007)

No I have to go with the RAAF ground crews once again. In particular what Wild had said about not only RAAF but also our American Allies as well in the Pacific and Asian Theatre of War. Once saw film clips of I think it was RAAF 25 Squadron (City Of Brisbane) having dire problems with their aircraft. Trying to taxi though glutonous mud on the strip after heavy rainfalls and monsoon weather conditions and ground crews trying to keep the aircraft moving and not getting bogged down and working under tropical condtions to keep the aircraft airworthy. I suspect our American Allies had similar problems in the Pacific and Asian region. Vote goes for RAAF Ground crews with our American mates close second by a knats breathe


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 14, 2007)

Emac44 said:


> Trying to taxi though glutonous mud on the strip after heavy rainfalls and monsoon weather conditions and ground crews trying to keep the aircraft moving and not getting bogged down and working under tropical condtions to keep the aircraft airworthy.



You also just dscribed another place that however is not tropical and a lot colder....

..The East Front.


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## Erich (Mar 14, 2007)

a mixed bag. It is a wonder that the US 9th AF nfs ever got as many P-61's airborne that they did as they an no extra spares and materails were far from being on schedule delivered.

overall I would grad the Luftwaffe with an A + especially during the spring of 45 during the massive airfield strafing done by the 8th and 9th AF's pulverizing existing shown German a/c on the ground. Got to hand it to the "black" men for getting anything up and running and forming a/c from anything available as to parts. Jg 301 crews had a tuff time trying to service their Ta 152H's and Fw 190A'9's during the constant move sometimes every other week due to the onrush of the Soviets in the east side of the Reich. Kommando Welter also moved continually, pilots often going to already Soviet held zones to swipe a defunct but still flyable Me 262nf so it would not fall in to their hands and up again to ward off Mossie intruders and LSNF bombers...........the last days was against Spits on the northern frontier


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## pbfoot (Mar 14, 2007)

I would have been nationalistic but couldn't so i voted Italian. The Pacific and CBI were tough but can you imagine trying to do maintainence outside at 20 below . Your hands would've been numb dropping tools cuz you couldn't feel your hands even threading in a screw is tough . I've never had problems starting a motor because it was to hot outside so i have to say working anywhere the climate was that brutal would have been far worse then working in a "tropical spa"


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## Emac44 (Mar 14, 2007)

A winter war would be tough on all I agree however given the situation of Tropical Diseases Tropical spa it is not working in temperatures of 100 Farnhiet plus then getting eaten alive literally by every bug that flies walks and crawls and sweat trickling down your face when stripping an engine or airframe. I know some would say frost bite and cold snows have their disadvantages but do not take it for granted Ground Crews working in the Tropics had an idylic time of it in the heat and monsoons of the Pacific and Asian region


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## Gnomey (Mar 14, 2007)

For me it is between the US and the Aussies in the Pacific and the Luftwaffe for keeping their planes in the air to the end. It is a hard choice but I will go with the Luftwaffe.


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## pbfoot (Mar 14, 2007)

I don't mean to demean their efforts but until you tried going mechanical work in the cold with wind you just can't appreciate how hard it is . Imagine gas pouring on your hand in the cold . So cold you can't grip your tools you can't wear gloves because you can't feel what your doing with them on . 
And after you finish your task you try and thaw out the agony of your extremities thawing out is really very painful . I believe every one of those guys would have swapped for the southern climates at a drop of a hat.


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## Emac44 (Mar 14, 2007)

But then again have to look at the Ground crews working in the deserts of North Africa and Middle East. Imagine half way through stripping the engine from a P40 Kittyhawk for Desert Hussars RAF and a bloody sand storm broils up getting fine grit sand like talcum powder through the engine intakes and such. As FBJ said if it wasn't for all ground crews pilots are pedestrians with expensive sunglasses


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## bigZ (Mar 14, 2007)

Gets bloody cold in those North African deserts at night.


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## pbfoot (Mar 14, 2007)

Can you imagine the black flies in summer Russia 
I know I'd much prefer to work in the heat and humidity or just plain heat. I work outside and don't use gloves on cold days and at the end of the day when my fingers are cracked and bleeding from the cold I pine for a an average summer day of 30c day with humidity. But still no matter what theatre these guys of all forces performed miracles with limited resources


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## Emac44 (Mar 15, 2007)

pbfoot said:


> Can you imagine the black flies in summer Russia
> I know I'd much prefer to work in the heat and humidity or just plain heat. I work outside and don't use gloves on cold days and at the end of the day when my fingers are cracked and bleeding from the cold I pine for a an average summer day of 30c day with humidity. But still no matter what theatre these guys of all forces performed miracles with limited resources



That I agree with totally with most of what you said Pb. But you want flies. You are talking to an Aussie about bloody flies. When you get 40 million blow flies assigned to each person and the bloody things take it in shifts to get every where and on anything. In North Africa flies were a constant problem for every one. Men had to eat drink **** and piss under cover and under extremes of temperatures and yes it does get bloody cold at night in the desert. then such lovley things like scorpions and snakes. water in short supply and no beer either and that applied just as much for the Italians and Germans alike. Desert didn't favour any one nor did the tropics for Japs and Allies. but same can be said for the European theatre as well just some differences of course. And Pb 30 celius heat is fine but you don't want to be working in heat 40 celius plus trust me on that. I have seen steel railway tracks buckle in heat like that and you could literally fry an egg on those rails they become that heated. thinking of which it must have been hell in a tank during African campaign. Pb I kid you not I have worked in heat like that 40 celius plus and the sun beats down like a bastard. And you see heat radiating from the ground in heat shimmies and every time you move you become a ball of sweat. You have to wear a hat or shirts etc to keep sun of you and constantly drink fluids to avoid heat exhaustion. It can kill you just as quick as hypotherma can in the cold, Oh the Hell With it. My gratitude to all ground crew. Especially the ones who maintained my Dad's Lancaster. Their work helped get him and his mates home


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## Wildcat (Mar 15, 2007)

Now, I agree that ALL groundcrews from every theatre had it tough at some stage and had to overcome hardships specific to their environment, but I still stand by my original post, that the blokes in the Pacific and CBI theatre (and the RAAF/USAAF airmen in Northern Australian for that matter) still had a tougher time at it. If it wasn't the constant heat (anyone who's ever worked on something metalic in 40C+ heat will know what I'm on about) it was the unbearable humidity which affected wiring and electronics, monsoonal downpours that turned airfields into mud bowls, the malaria bearing mosquitoes that were your constant compainion at night, the risk of disease throught rough living, the deadly snakes, spiders and other jungle dwelling creatures that made life miserable. Then there was, of course, the enemy. If his aerial bombs and machine guns weren't enough, they had naval bombardments (especially the early stages of the PTO) the threat of being overrun and of course the fear of capture by a brutal enemy. Many allied groundcrews endured hell in Japanese PoW camps when places like Malaya, Singapore, Rabaul the Phillipines etc fell. Coupled with the lack of comforts and immense boredom whilst off duty ( very little to do in the jungle or on some pacific Island). I personally believe these factors alone make the tropics a much tougher environmet to service and maintain an operational airforce at a high servicability rate.


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## lesofprimus (Mar 15, 2007)

I voted Luftwaffe... All this Pacific crap is fine and dandy, my Grandfather was in it for 3 tours, so I know how bad it was, but those Black Men had the worst of all possibilites... Gotta give it to them for all the reasons listed above...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 15, 2007)

Emac44 said:


> A winter war would be tough on all I agree however given the situation of Tropical Diseases Tropical spa it is not working in temperatures of 100 Farnhiet plus then getting eaten alive literally by every bug that flies walks and crawls and sweat trickling down your face when stripping an engine or airframe. I know some would say frost bite and cold snows have their disadvantages but do not take it for granted Ground Crews working in the Tropics had an idylic time of it in the heat and monsoons of the Pacific and Asian region



Ever been to Russia in the Summer time?

The reason I go for the East Front is this:

Winter: Ice, Snow, -40 Temps, Mudd. They did not have the nice mechanics gloves that we have today. Try touching bare metal in -40 Temps.Then you have to move the aircraft around through the mud, get the maintenance vehicals up to the aircraft. Fuel Trucks. Aircraft may not like the cold either. Lots of Snow...

Spring: Mudd lots of Mudd! Night Time temps down around the 0 to 5 C Range. Still very cold to touch the metal with bare hands. Day time it warms up nice but the mudd thaws out. You have mud to the knees. You also have lots and lots of mosquitos eating you alive. Lots of Rain...

Summer: Mudd, High temps between 30 and 35 C (obviously not as warm as in the PTO but still pretty damn hot to slave in the sun all day), Lots of Bugs and mosquitos eating you alive.

You see the PTO was deffinatly treacherous, I am not taking it away from that and it was extreme as well. The East Front though in my opinion had Extremes on both ends. Cold and Hot. You had the bugs as well.

From my experience of working on aircraft in 120 F heat in the desert of Iraq and in the 0 F of Kosovo. I would much rather work on aircraft in the heat. You can strip down eneogh to keep somewhat cool in the heat but in the cold you have keep warm somehow.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 15, 2007)

Emac44 said:


> But then again have to look at the Ground crews working in the deserts of North Africa and Middle East. Imagine half way through stripping the engine from a P40 Kittyhawk for Desert Hussars RAF and a bloody sand storm broils up getting fine grit sand like talcum powder through the engine intakes and such. As FBJ said if it wasn't for all ground crews pilots are pedestrians with expensive sunglasses



Been there done that my friend. We had a really big red sand storm hit us in Iraq right after I landed one time and was doing a post flight on the aircraft. Had to run back inside the aircraft to keep from drowning in sand!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 15, 2007)

Emac44 said:


> And Pb 30 celius heat is fine but you don't want to be working in heat 40 celius plus trust me on that. I have seen steel railway tracks buckle in heat like that and you could literally fry an egg on those rails they become that heated. thinking of which it must have been hell in a tank during African campaign. Pb I kid you not I have worked in heat like that 40 celius plus and the sun beats down like a bastard. And you see heat radiating from the ground in heat shimmies and every time you move you become a ball of sweat. You have to wear a hat or shirts etc to keep sun of you and constantly drink fluids to avoid heat exhaustion. It can kill you just as quick as hypotherma can in the cold,



You just described my personal hell for 14 months when I was in Iraq!


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## plan_D (Mar 15, 2007)

I can't vote for a single air force because almost all ground crews were ingenius in all their given situations. 

I cannot believe that no one has mentioned the RAF ground crews. I suppose it is up to me to point out that in 1940 these lads kept heavily damaged fighters in air while being harassed and bombed by the Luftwaffe. Even throughout the war the RAF ground crews maintained their fighters and heavy bombers (with extensive damage) with the odd bombing from the Luftwaffe. 

At Crete the poor lads were left behind to defend the island alongside the ground pounders after the final four Hurricanes left for Malta. And on Malta the ground crews kept all the defending fighters, fighting fit even with spares shortages and constant bombardment. 

In North Africa, even with the constantly moving fronts between 1941 and 1943 the ground crews shifted in the party system to keep each squadron operating even while moving from base to base. This was under bombing and bombardment from German heavy guns (especially so in 1943 with Rommel's last offensive in Africa). 

All this mention of the RAAF in the PTO - well here's a thumbs up to the RAF lads in India and Burma. With the second Chindit operation ground crews were operating an airfield *behind* enemy lines. They kept eight Spitfires operating and maintained any C-47s that landed. And there's just as little to do in the Burmese jungle as there is any Pacific Island. 

Then in France and Germany the same movement system that was created in North Africa. Through rain, wind, snow and sleet these lads kept anything and everything flying. 

And if we include Fleet Air Arm lads we've got the carrier operations to be dealing with. 

Anything the US ground crews did, the RAF crews did too. 

The U.S ground crews in North Africa get praise for "Mongrel" though. 

_"When we flew overseas we carried what was referred to as the 'Flight Kit' consisting of a collection of spare parts guesstimated by the Group CO and his staff. These parts were scattered throughout the airplanes of the flight. This small supply was our only source of replacement parts for a long time. Although the RAF had some Liberator parts at a Depot in Palestine, few if any were available to us. The Army Air Force answer was to fly combat planes with combat crews overseas to be cannibalized (the planes, not the crews, although we got hungry enough to eat some plump bombardiers). I believe the 98th received five of these 'cannibals' while in Palestine, all going to Group HQ at Ramat David. Soon these planes were skeletons standing around the airport. One Warrant Officer, named Cook, got permission from the Group CO to build airplane out of the remaining parts. With the help of various mechanics, W.O. Cook soon had an airplane with variously colored wings and empennage, some original design in controls, gas lines made of ordinary water pipe, and an insignia consisting of a bitch with some offcolor pups. When I took over the Group at Fayid, Egypt, the Mongrel was listed in flying condition but seldom flew and was on no HQ list of airplanes. When we moved into the Western Desert and set up our tents at Gambut, I first flew the Mongrel and was agreeably surprised at her performance. Later when we in for pretracted operations at Benina Main, east of Benghazi, we began to fly the Mongrel to and from Cairo, ferrying crews on leave, laundry, supplies, mail and what have you. She usually carried over 30 men and unweighed poudage of freight."_ - Col. "Killer" Kane. 

From *The 9th Air Force in World War II* by Kenn C.Rust.


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## Emac44 (Mar 15, 2007)

Hey Adler I am not taking anything away from Ground crews in Europe or Russia. I can understand you worked in 40 plus degree heat for 14 months but remember I do that every year day in day out during our summers. So do understand ok. But take nothing away from ground crews in the Pacific and Asian regions and no Plan I didn't forget the RAF boys by any means or our Canadian mates or any other Commonwealth Ground Crews. it was hardships all round for ground crews Adler no matter where they served so I do understand. I might not have been to Russia but believe me mate I do know the heat and what it can do to some one. At the moment we are having droughts in certain parts of Australia. But in the tropic north they are having monsoons tropic cyclones and ****ing floods. And by the way Adler if you look at Wilds photos these men in those photos had difficulties as well which looks like an old Beaufort coming into land in a sea of mud. But bare in mind Adler those in the Pacific and Asian Theatre didn't see snow but rain constant rain that comes down like sheets and never lets up for days on end turning the airstrips into mud baths bad enough walking in that let alone taxing an aircraft as the same in Russia. We might not have snow Adler but we do have Typhoons and Cyclones that can wreck an airfield in a matter of minutes and turn aircraft to match wood or so much scrap metal. and as Plan so aptly said flying the Hump as it was called to bring in all supplies for the Air Forces because the enemy had cut the Burma Road wouldn't have been an ideal place to be in. Or being on an isolated island and the Jap Navy came by once per night and shelled your aerodrome not so idylisitc as one might think Adler. I am not taking anything away from the Europeans Campaigns and all ground crews had it tough but just because the sun shines in the Pacific or Asian regions doesn't make it all rosey and comfortable for Allied Ground Crews who had to work in those hell holes Adler. and Adler the reason I go for the PTO is because I live in the Pacific region and been brought up in it all my life. Father on the other hand served in North Africa and Middle East and also in Pacific before joining Bomber Command and going to England. So Adler I think I do have a handle on the situations described by you. and don't forget Adler a lot of these Aerodromes didn't come about in the jungles of the Pacific or Asian region because of pre war planning they had to be cut out of the scrub Yes with mechanical aid but also by hand. Most in particular the Burma Campaign and the other part where Chinese Civilians not only built a bloody other road but also turned around and built airfields by hand Adler. if by chance german or Axis Ground crews were caught by the enemy they may have had little chance of survival but remeber with the Japs you had **** all chance


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## Emac44 (Mar 15, 2007)

All this Pacific crap is fine and dandy, 

Pacifi Crap huh Les. Really les thought you would have at least seen it wasn't all crap


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## Emac44 (Mar 15, 2007)

All this Pacific crap is fine and dandy, 

Pacifi Crap huh Les. Really Les thought you would have at least seen it wasn't all crap[/QUOTE]


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## pbfoot (Mar 15, 2007)

Well maybe I can't appreciate constant 40c temperatures to the same extent but nor can you appreciate sub freezing temperatures . i lived in Winnipeg where Hunter is from and winter is about the same as Russia . Cold and flat nothing to stop the wind .The foam in my car seats froze it was like sitting on concrete. They used to put some gasoline in the crankcases of aircraft to keep the oil thinner so it wouldn't freeze. The modern ground crews have a work time of 15 minutes outside in such cold. Black flies or more popularly named "No see ems" because of their small size seem to eat hunks of flesh. The runway can be a sheet of ice and your aircraft becomes a 5 ton curling stone . I've witnessed a Tornado weathercock on an icey runway sliding sideways for a good distance >once again all the guys did great work no matter what theatre but give me the heat


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## Emac44 (Mar 16, 2007)

I have to admit Pb i perfer heat to cold. but we have those midgee flies to mate fit through mesh screens like they don't exsist and the bastards bite too. Then on top of that you get ****ing sand flies. They don't bite but **** a chemical cocktail onto you out of their arses. but as for RAAF pilots and ground crews trying to find cover from the heat. funniest photo I have seen was at RAAF Butterworth many years ago Pb of a RAAF Pilot with a Chinese Parsol over his head whilst sitting in a Mirage Fighter on Tarmac awaiting his time to go. It was so ****ing hot Pb even the RAAFdogs found it hard to wag the tail on security duties


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 16, 2007)

Emac44 said:


> Hey Adler I am not taking anything away from Ground crews in Europe or Russia. I can understand you worked in 40 plus degree heat for 14 months but remember I do that every year day in day out during our summers. So do understand ok. But take nothing away from ground crews in the Pacific and Asian regions and no Plan I didn't forget the RAF boys by any means or our Canadian mates or any other Commonwealth Ground Crews. it was hardships all round for ground crews Adler no matter where they served so I do understand. I might not have been to Russia but believe me mate I do know the heat and what it can do to some one. At the moment we are having droughts in certain parts of Australia. But in the tropic north they are having monsoons tropic cyclones and ****ing floods. And by the way Adler if you look at Wilds photos these men in those photos had difficulties as well which looks like an old Beaufort coming into land in a sea of mud. But bare in mind Adler those in the Pacific and Asian Theatre didn't see snow but rain constant rain that comes down like sheets and never lets up for days on end turning the airstrips into mud baths bad enough walking in that let alone taxing an aircraft as the same in Russia. We might not have snow Adler but we do have Typhoons and Cyclones that can wreck an airfield in a matter of minutes and turn aircraft to match wood or so much scrap metal. and as Plan so aptly said flying the Hump as it was called to bring in all supplies for the Air Forces because the enemy had cut the Burma Road wouldn't have been an ideal place to be in. Or being on an isolated island and the Jap Navy came by once per night and shelled your aerodrome not so idylisitc as one might think Adler. I am not taking anything away from the Europeans Campaigns and all ground crews had it tough but just because the sun shines in the Pacific or Asian regions doesn't make it all rosey and comfortable for Allied Ground Crews who had to work in those hell holes Adler. and Adler the reason I go for the PTO is because I live in the Pacific region and been brought up in it all my life. Father on the other hand served in North Africa and Middle East and also in Pacific before joining Bomber Command and going to England. So Adler I think I do have a handle on the situations described by you. and don't forget Adler a lot of these Aerodromes didn't come about in the jungles of the Pacific or Asian region because of pre war planning they had to be cut out of the scrub Yes with mechanical aid but also by hand. Most in particular the Burma Campaign and the other part where Chinese Civilians not only built a bloody other road but also turned around and built airfields by hand Adler. if by chance german or Axis Ground crews were caught by the enemy they may have had little chance of survival but remeber with the Japs you had **** all chance



Whoah calm down emac. Dont take it so personal. You dont have to agree with me and I dont have to agree with you. It is just a discussion.

I think the East front was more difficult because you had everything you had in the PTO except for maybe a Typhoon plus you had to deal with it in the cold and the heat. It was extremes all year long.

As for the survival if captured. Not on the East Front. So many Russians were killed by Germans rather than put them in POW camps and the same was vise versa. The Russians slaughtered the Germans as well for revenge.


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## Emac44 (Mar 17, 2007)

Hey Adler I am not taking it personally sorry if you thought I was mate. Its a discussion and that is all it is. this is off topic Adler a bit. I saw a Documentary up coming on Von Paullus 6th Army captured around Stalingrad. 95000 Germans went into captivity only 6000 came home eventually after the war had been finished by 10 years or more. Documentary airs on History Channel next month. 95,000 Germans went into captivity only less than 6,000 came home. That is a death rate of over 98% and that in itself is an Atrocity on the rights of POWs Adler. Which the Russians should have been charged with and were not


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## Bullockracing (Mar 17, 2007)

I voted for the Reds... The Americans, German and British ground crews were by far and away better trained and equipped, comparatively. The Russians had little or no food, sub-par training, poor tools. And they maintained a bigger fleet, too... And pulled infantry duty...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 17, 2007)

Emac44 said:


> Hey Adler I am not taking it personally sorry if you thought I was mate. Its a discussion and that is all it is. this is off topic Adler a bit. I saw a Documentary up coming on Von Paullus 6th Army captured around Stalingrad. 95000 Germans went into captivity only 6000 came home eventually after the war had been finished by 10 years or more. Documentary airs on History Channel next month. 95,000 Germans went into captivity only less than 6,000 came home. That is a death rate of over 98% and that in itself is an Atrocity on the rights of POWs Adler. Which the Russians should have been charged with and were not



My Grandfather was a Major in the Wehrmacht on the East Front and took part in the Battle of Stalingrad. He was wounded and captured at Stalingrad. He was fortunate and returned shortly after the war. I believe only because he was a doctor.


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## Emac44 (Mar 17, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> My Grandfather was a Major in the Wehrmacht on the East Front and took part in the Battle of Stalingrad. He was wounded and captured at Stalingrad. He was fortunate and returned shortly after the war. I believe only because he was a doctor.



I am pleased your Grand Father made it home Adler. What I was trying to say and looked like I failed neither the Germans or the Russians had the right to abuse kill and murder POWs from either side. Justice Yes War Crimes against each other no Adler. 2 wrongs do not make it right my friend. It was truly a dirty war in WW2. If asked yes I would have proscuted Russians for War Crimes just as much as I would have done with Germans Adler. But I suppose that comes from being civilized and even in the conduct of war one must abided by some sort of conventions in dealing with other human beings regardless of whom they are, enemy or not. hope you understand what I am saying Adler


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 17, 2007)

Emac44 said:


> I am pleased your Grand Father made it home Adler. What I was trying to say and looked like I failed neither the Germans or the Russians had the right to abuse kill and murder POWs from either side. Justice Yes War Crimes against each other no Adler. 2 wrongs do not make it right my friend. It was truly a dirty war in WW2. If asked yes I would have proscuted Russians for War Crimes just as much as I would have done with Germans Adler. But I suppose that comes from being civilized and even in the conduct of war one must abided by some sort of conventions in dealing with other human beings regardless of whom they are, enemy or not. hope you understand what I am saying Adler



I undestood what you were saying and I agree. I was just adding that in that my grandfather was lucky to return fairly early and alive.


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## lesofprimus (Mar 17, 2007)

I've been all over the globe and done some crazy sh!t, and working in sub-zero temps is HANDS DOWN the worst possible scenario.... What the Germans, and the Russians to a degree, were able to perform is downright amazing...

Gun Oil would freeze.... I mean common...


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## bigZ (Mar 17, 2007)

lesofprimus said:


> I've been all over the globe and done some crazy sh!t, and working in sub-zero temps is HANDS DOWN the worst possible scenario.... What the Germans, and the Russians to a degree, were able to perform is downright amazing...
> 
> Gun Oil would freeze.... I mean common...



Just one of the reasons I went for the Finns. But God knows how they kept those Buffalos, Hurricanes, Blenheims flying whilst fighting the Russians?

I agree with previous comments regarding the treatment of POW's on the Eastern front. If the Germans behaved the Ukranians might have became an allied.


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## fire-ball (Mar 18, 2007)

remember the raf had really bad taxi's which would get the planes stuck in the mud alot while some German naval air basses use ground lifts and double taxi systems which made it easier and faster to launch planes, ohh almost forgot in some situations the RAF air basses never had a taxi or paved runway so my vote is to the luftwaffe,but if not them the japenese because they used prisoners of war to make em which may caused problems but was extreamly cheep


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## fire-ball (Mar 18, 2007)

Hey u forgot britans most important import of aircrews the RCAF(ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE)


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## saltlakespitfire (Mar 20, 2007)

I have voted for the luftwaffe as the term on the poll states inguenity . Sure, all the ground crews in the war worked terribly hard. The fact is self evident from all accounts of the air war in various theatres. However I once read of aluftwaffe ground crew who serviced an Me-262 jet engine from spare parts of a Mecedes Benz. Furthermore, during the last months of the war in Europe,hose ground crew guys had to go through hell. What with the ground attacks by thye Thphoons and Thunderbolts practically forced them into jungles. And they still kept those aircraft flying.
I'am not taking credit away from thr RAAF and the USAF ground crews who worked in the Pacific theatre. In fact I think they did an outstanding job, but for ingenuity, I have to give it to the Luftwaffe.


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## drgondog (Jun 12, 2007)

This is very tough and will remain subjective.

Kudos to the Luftwaffe and USSR for Russia wnters

Kudos to USAAF Aleutian Ground crews for extreme wind/rain and cold maintaining 'everything' 

Kudos to ANZAC, RAF, USAAF and Luftwaffe for maintaining their ships in the desert

Kudos to the USAAF ground crews for solving amd making field changes to all aircraft that the designers hadn't quite 'fixed' before shipping

Kudos to RAF and USAAF crews working round the clock night after night to get their beasts up for another Maximum Effort in that bloody English goo and foul weather November through March (my Texas born father, when asked about English weather exagerated somewhat - "It has two seasons, Winter and the 4th of July)

Kudos to Luftwaffe crews for surviving strafing attacks, moving from one location to another and setting up again - only to move again.

Kudos to the Pacific crews of all nations and services for the 1941-1943 conditions and primitive facilities like Guadalcanal.

Someone is going to have to lay out some serious boundary conditions to select one. 

Having said this -Just for dealing with a complete range of conditions, from Artic to Desert to Jungles to Sea to Hurricanes, Blizzards, Ice and Sandstorms - and bringing Southern Engineering with them - I'll be a 'homer' and go US.

Regards,

Bill


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 13, 2007)

As I believe I stated in my other posts I dont really think I can vote for anyone. They all did great jobs keeping there aircraft in the air.


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