# Group Build Entries.



## Airframes (Dec 26, 2008)

As it's Lucky's idea for the Group Build, and an excellent one too, I reckon it's up to him to decide what can and can't be done. For instance, the number of entries per person, the dates (of the period concerned), whether Reichs Defence Command only or defending the Reich from other countries, eg France and so on. 
My suggestions would be:- Up to one entry per scale per 'contestant', from 1/72nd to 1/24th scales. Dates, late 1943 to May 1945; any Luftwaffe aircraft, anywhere, involved in defending against attacking allied aircraft.
I think it would be helpful if those people intending to enter, could post their name, and which category they put themselves in; for instance, beginner, novice, etc. in order that we all know who's who and what's what. Perhaps Wayne can advise on the categories - i.e. what constitutes 'novice' etc?
That way, we know how many entrants there are and, if individuals are able to include the number of entries, we also know what we are looking for.
Just as a small incentive, I've attached a couple of (small) pics of the paintings I've chosen to put up as a 'prize'; the winner of this one can choose which of the two they would like. (I'll post a pic of the original 1960's 'Frog' kit later.)
The chosen print will be made on A4 card, perhaps larger if my local contacts can do so, and the image will be bordered, with the title printed below. The print will be personally signed, and will be accompanied by 'Historical Notes' explaining the scene, and Certificates of Authenticity and valuation. These latter basically explain that no other print has been made in this issue, and the value, if bought, for insurance purposes. I regret that I am unable to frame this, but it will be despatched, F.O.C., in a stout tube.
I would have provided a Luftwaffe subject, but the originals have all been sold! 
The prints are; 'Suddenly Alone', a Spitfire Mk1 during the Battle of Britain. This has not been shown, ever, as the original, oils on canvas, is now the property of my youngest daughter.
'The Bluff', Jim Goodson's 4th FG P47 near the Pas de Calais, 1943. Again, this has not been issued as prints, and only one person has a copy, on A4 card. The original, oils on canvas, is in my personal collection.
looking forward to your comments re the entries etc.
Terry.


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## Lucky13 (Dec 26, 2008)

First of all old sport....bl**dy nice paintings! 
Posted this in the other "Group Build" thread, so I'm quoting myself here...


Lucky13 said:


> Well,first of all....timewise for this groupbuild, it was mentioned I think earlier, when I first put this thingy out, that it would cover any kind of machines in the defence of the Reich from the beginning of Operation Bodenplatte January 1 '45 to VE-Day. But as we went along I think it was said to include same as before, any flying machines in the defence of the Reich, but from '43 to VE-Day instead, that way it'd give a wider range of possible prototypes to build, which I think is great and Luftwaffe was pretty much on the defence from then on anyway....
> Also, as Dan and Terry's been talking about entering Lord Whoopass' JV44 kite, that should be alright, as it isn't finished. Any else in the same seat can do the same I think, as I feel that it could spur people to finish that certain model that's been collecting dust in the corner, so any other with unfinished kits out there, enter them into the groupbuild as well and get them finished...
> You could also enter as many models as you want and feel that you can finish before VE-Day, May 7th 2009, may it be 1, 2, 3 or more...and in any scale too, 1/144, 1/72, 1/48 etc....even 1/1 if you can afford it! 8)
> Anykind of dioramas would be nice to see as well I think personally, so get in there....would do one myself, but I'm too *green* yet, so I'll leave that for later and let the pros do their thing, do their stuff....
> ...


1. Scale, 1/72 to 1/24.
2. Number of entries, some are faster builders than others, sooooo....3 is the magic number they say....is that number alright with you chaps or would you rather make it 4? The old bean put me in a spot here with only one entry in each scale, since I only build in 1/48.......maybe if I dangle a Guinness, a nice single malt dram or one of the lassies from "Breaking News" thread, we can have that changed? What do you say guv? 
3. Would making it May '43 to VE-Day be alright, making it even two years, or would you rather see later in '43, September, October, suggestions?
4. Since it's from '43, it'll be any machines defending the Reich, wherever they may be based, France, Italy etc....and those with the "bands" of course.

Me, myself and I will build in Beginner category....

Maybe a name for the group build as well...?

Edit: Here's something more about to read about Reichsverteidigung

Also, this is what Wikipedia have to say..."The Defense of the Reich (German: Reichsverteidigung) was the Nazi Germany campaign to "gain air superiority"in the European Theatre of Operations, particularly against the Allied strategic bombing during World War II. The campaign generally began with the Luftwaffe retreat from France and ended with the defeat of the Luftwaffe during the Battle of the Bulge."

They have the dates as from September 1944-January 1, 1945, so I think that we'll do it from September '43 to VE-Day, May 7th '45...how does that sound chaps?


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## Airframes (Dec 26, 2008)

I think that just about covers everything, Jan. Only thing I would add is, what you pointed out about those building in one scale only, including yourself. In that case, yes, I think as there are 4 major scales, then a total of four models, either one maximum per scale if doing all four scales, or four in one scale, or a combination; for example, 1 in 1/72nd, 2 in 1/48th, 1 in 1/32nd. If the others think that's fair?
As for my entry (possibly entries), I'll abstain from being counted in the votes, I'll just chuck something in for the hell of it!
Now, some pics of the other 'prize'.
This is the original 'Frog' 1/72nd scale kit, circa 1965, which I have had since new! I used to build quite a lot of Frog models, along with Airfix, as they were both predominant in the late 50's and 60's. By today's standards, these kits are very basic, which will be evident when you see the pics, but they were always accurate, and built up into nice replicas. With a bit of work, scratch-building bits, long, long before the days of aftermarket accessories or detailing parts, which weren't even dreamed of then, some very nice models were produced. The original Frog range was vast and, when they folded, or retired, many kits were re-introduced by 'Novo', using the original moulds, I believe in Russia. The quality then was not as good, but generally acceptable, considering how worn the original tools must have become. 
An original Frog kit, still in its box, is now considered a collectors item, and some can command rather hefty prices for small bits of plastic! 
For those unfamiliar with the Proctor, it was a British, 4 seat, light communications aircraft, and also used as a 3 seat radio trainer. After the war, many found their way onto the civilian register, where they were a rather neat, and relatively spacious, light aircraft. There are still a number around today, and they used to be fairly common at my local airport when I was in my teens. 
This kit will go to the model/modeller who the other entrants deem has produced the best model for his category, regardless of scale, out of all categories. Hopefully, this will give everyone a chance!
The 'print' I think should go to the person who has produced the best model overall. How that's going to be judged, is open to suggestions. I don't mind throwing in my two pen'orth, as I'm not 'competing', but it would be better if at least two others would vote also. Perhaps a non-competing mod/admin could be one?
EDIT.Oops, silly me, forgot to attach pics before pressing the 'Go' button! Should be there now!


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## Catch22 (Dec 26, 2008)

Maybe make it so you can enter UP to a certain number, because not all of us have the funds or time to build 3 or 4 models within a certain time span.


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## Airframes (Dec 26, 2008)

Sorry Catch, that's what I meant! Had a feeling I wasn't being very clear; enter UP TO 4 models, if you so choose.


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 27, 2008)

So max of one model per scale?

Nice paintings Terry!


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## Airframes (Dec 27, 2008)

I think Lucky was meaning up to four models, either all one scale, one of each scale, two of one scale two of another, just one model, and so on and so on and.....I''m b****y confused, help!


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## Catch22 (Dec 27, 2008)

Ah k, much better haha!


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## Heinz (Dec 27, 2008)

For simple language 4 models per modeller regardless of scale. 

Sounds good to me


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## rochie (Dec 27, 2008)

are we having a time scale to the build between now and march for example ?


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## Airframes (Dec 27, 2008)

Far as I know, it's 'officially' from Jan 1st to March 31st.


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## rochie (Dec 27, 2008)

o.k i can live with that


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## tango35 (Dec 27, 2008)

Hello folks,
why we made the time frame so short ?
What about 1.jan.09-08.05.09 , so we have a bit more time.

As i have told it before, i will start with a Me 109 G-14 1/32 nearly OOB, only some fuel and brake lines , no aftermarket stuff.

greets Thomas


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## Lucky13 (Dec 27, 2008)

Sounds good to me Terry old chap! Timewise though, if anyone think that March 31st is to close and don't want to take part because of that, how about make finishline on the May 7th, VE-Day just for this Defense Of The Reich build? Some has to buy the model, paints, decals etc...before they can start....why is everybody looking at me? ...

As for the number of models entered by each builder/contender, it's up to 4 models in any scale or all in 1 scale...

We still have a few days to iron things out, soooo....any ideas and suggestions are most welcome...8)


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 27, 2008)

May 7th Sounds good to me

Il enter my Me-109K-4 in the beginner 1/48 catagory


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## Wayne Little (Dec 27, 2008)

Lucky13 said:


> Sounds good to me Terry old chap! Timewise though, if anyone think that March 31st is to close and don't want to take part because of that, how about make finishline on the May 7th, VE-Day just for this Defense Of The Reich build? Some has to buy the model, paints, decals etc...before they can start....why is everybody looking at me? ...
> 
> As for the number of models entered by each builder/contender, it's up to 4 models in any scale or all in 1 scale...
> 
> We still have a few days to iron things out, soooo....any ideas and suggestions are most welcome...8)



...remember the KISS principle! "Keep It Simple Stupid"

VE-Day sounds great considering the theme.... still only a little over 4 months!


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## rochie (Dec 27, 2008)

VE-day sounds good
here's my entry in the "beginners class" i'm just doing it out of the box using one of the decal sheets provided, just gotta wait for it to arrive from the shop !


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 27, 2008)

Nice mate! I'm doing the same kit!


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## rochie (Dec 27, 2008)

109ROAMING said:


> Nice mate! I'm doing the same kit!



cool i'll let you know which scheme i'm doing so we dont both turn up to the ball wearing the same dress


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## Lucky13 (Dec 27, 2008)

You two in different dresses is a nightmare bad enough, without you turning up in the same outfit....


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## Airframes (Dec 27, 2008)

The dates etc are fine by me chaps, whatever the majority think.
Do we know how many are participating yet?
And Jan, you mentioned a name being required for this scheme; how about 'Unternehmen Flug Brucke'? (hope I got the spelling and grammar right, haven't used German for years!). Just that, 'Operation Air Bridge', in German, fits the theme, and it's an 'air bridge' bringing people together from around the World. Corrections/thoughts/views welcome!
Terry.


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## Lucky13 (Dec 27, 2008)

Sounds good to me old drinking buddy....you're German's one h*ll lot better than mine! 

Edit: I'll take in the beginners beginner class...with these two machines, Heinrich Bartels "Yellow 13" in which he went MIA December 23rd '44 and "Yellow 13" from 15./JG53, have no idea about who the pilot was etc...both in 1/48.

BTW folks, was just thinking, should it be deadline after which you can't enter any more models, or should we just keep it open throughout? I mean, if you finish one and feel that you have time to start and finish another one, you can do that....opinions?

I feel that they have a somewhat easier camouflage than JV44's *13*, better to ease into things than do the blotching right away....well, Bartels do have some, but not as bad as the '44 bird!


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## Airframes (Dec 27, 2008)

Your choices look good to me Jan.
As for a deadline, I can't see a problem leaving it open, as long as the 'last' entry is posted on, or before May 7. The only possible 'complication' might, and only MIGHT, arise, if a potential winner of a section has the full compliment of models, as opposed to that category's other participants only having, say, one each. Not a problem for me, but how do the rest of you feel?
I would suggest that it's about now that the 'rules' should be ironed out, agreed upon, and posted. Also, the judging and/or voting system needs to be finalised, so that all are in agreement, and no arguments/misunderstanding/discontentment etc can spoil what should be, and, as I see it, is intended to be, a fun thing, bringing people together with a common aim, AND recreating a little piece of history in miniature.
I suppose this all needs to be 'boxed off' by 31st December?
Are we going with 'Unternehmen Flug Brucke' as the Group Build title? (Our German/German-speaking friends please advise on the accuracy, or otherwise, of my interpretation here!)
Again, comments/opinions etc welcome!
Terry.


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## Heinz (Dec 27, 2008)

Should we have a forums choice poll as well just for kicks?


Like the peoples choice at exhibitions?


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## Lucky13 (Dec 27, 2008)

Riiiight....which are the "rules" that we can nail down right now? The scales from 1/72 to 1/24, maximum of 4 models each and in any scale, models to represent aircraft flown by Luftwaffe in the defense of the Reich from September '43 to VE-Day '45, start January 1st 2009 and end May 7th....


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## Airframes (Dec 27, 2008)

Good so far, and I like the suggestion by Heinz. Given that there is enough interest and 'interaction' from the general forum members, maybe a poll will be the best way to decide on the winners from each category etc.
As Wayne said though, 'K.I.S.S.' - don't want to get too complex and unweildy!


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## Lucky13 (Dec 27, 2008)

True....


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## lesofprimus (Dec 27, 2008)

I think there should be a panel of non-competing judges, not the forum membership that decides the winners...

We could make another winning model under the catagory Forum Favorite or Membership Choice Award....

The guys who would be judging should be non-competing Senior Members/Mods who know what they are talking about.... We need to get a listing of all participants and then go from there....


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## lesofprimus (Dec 27, 2008)

And for the record, I will be building the 1/32nd scale Hasegawa Fw 190D-9 "Red 1" of JV44, flown by Heinz Sachsenberg and submitting it in the Beginner/Novice Catagory...

Speaking of that, what are the requirements for each catagory as far as skill goes, and how many/what experience levels will there be???

Beginner, Intermediate, and Expert???


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## Catch22 (Dec 27, 2008)

I need to find out if I'll even be able to. I have a bit of a backlog, and that carrier's gonna take a while.


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## A4K (Dec 27, 2008)

I 'd like to be in on this if I can.
I haven't done much modelmaking for a while, as there are still a few urgent matters that need my attention, but I'm hoping to enter an Fw 190D-9 atleast, one of my favourite aircraft.

My skill level is somewhere round the 'intermediate' stage -I'm not a beginner, but I'm far from professional, and I still brush paint.

The dates and conditions of the build sound good to me.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 27, 2008)

> The dates and conditions of the build sound good to me.


Same here A4...


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## Airframes (Dec 27, 2008)

Aw, Catch! You gotta try get something in, if you can! Even if it's a teeny weeny little thing!
Yep, I agree so far with the 'rules'; I've already stated that I'll 'enter' but not compete, so I don't mind assisting with some of the judging. I think that, as Wayne is currently up to speed with comp rules etc, maybe he can finalise the 'rules' for this scheme, if that's OK Wayne?
As I see it, this is not only a group-build 'competition', but an incentive and tutorial, where modellers on the forum, whatever their skill level, can participate, contribute and gain knowledge/experience/hints/inspiration etc, thereby furthering the enjoyment and sense of achievement whilst at the same time broadening skills and education. Already, the research sparked off has provided valuable historical information that has been shared by all - great stuff!
Perhaps it might be a good idea to have an historical specialist on board? (Don't like the term 'expert' - 'Ex' means 'has been' and 'Spurt' is a drip under pressure!) It could help in adjudication, and in the case of a tie, or split decisions. Of course, I'm thinking of Erich here! If you fancy it that is Erich!?
Again, comments/opinions/views welcomed.
Terry.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 27, 2008)

I think that the Judges need to be decided after everyone who are going to participate have declared themselves...

As I see it, Erich, Eric and u Terry are the first 3 Judges to pick.... Wayne could be another Judge if he doesnt "compete"...


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## Njaco (Dec 27, 2008)

Guess I 'll throw my two bits in here. I'm just gonna do one as I don't know what I have just yet - have to open a few big boxes to see. But I'm no beginner and far from professional - like Evan. Time constraints will keep mine to one entry. Tommorrow I'll go rooting around for what I have.


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## Airframes (Dec 27, 2008)

Fine by me Dan. As you say, the next thing is to get all the names in; actual entries, and the numbers of same, can be sorted later. Can I suggest that, as soon as the rules and 'categories/classes' are finalised, that those wishing to, or intending to enter, lodge their details on a separate post?
I don't mind taking and recording the details, as I probably have more free time than most. When the above is sorted, perhaps a register under the comp title can be posted, so that all concerned can register, question, clarify etc. I'll keep a file on all correspondance, to be shared or disrtributed to the relevant parties, if it's thought that would be useful?


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## Wayne Little (Dec 27, 2008)

As I said earlier I would rather judge than compete...I may throw something in just to contribute to the build....

It would seem that for the most part, from the posts so far, that we have beginner/novice and Intermediate classes of modellers putting their hands up, sound about right?

So how do YOU fit?.....keeping the description simple.....

Category/Class 1 : Experienced Modeller with very good skills.
Category/Class 2 : General Medium level modeller with reasonable skills and good grasp on the basics.
Category/Class 3 : Beginner/Novice Minimal experience and learning the ropes.

Does this provide a fair and reasonable description?


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## lesofprimus (Dec 27, 2008)

Sounds good Terry... I like the name of the Group Build as well.... Unfortunatly, I cant get the word Operation to translate into German....

Air Bridge translated is Luftbrücke... Operation translates to Operation... We need Chris or Erich in here...


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## lesofprimus (Dec 27, 2008)

Sounds good Wayne, although by ur descriptions, Im not sure if Im a Class 3 or 2....


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## Catch22 (Dec 27, 2008)

I WILL try to sneak one in Terry, but we'll have to see how it goes. I'd probably do the Tamiya Dora OOB.

Yeah, I'm not sure either. I'm experienced as I've been doing it a while, and I know what I'm doing, but somebody like Wayne would be in Class 3, and I'm nowhere near him.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 27, 2008)

Since Ive only seriously attempted to build the 190A-8 and the Panther Tank in the last 20 years, I would assume Im a Class 3 participant...


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## Matt308 (Dec 27, 2008)

Your a Class 2, Les. And for the record, Wayne isn't a Class 3 Catch. He's Class 1 buddy.


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## Matt308 (Dec 27, 2008)

Can I suggest that to keep the intimidation factor to a minimum for the Class 3 participants that we just keep the build requirements to:

1) Beginning and ending dates for completion.

2) Scale 1/72nd to 1/24th

3) Any German Reich Defense airplane made Out Of Box (OOB). No scratch built parts or modifications other than directly contained in the OOB instruction sheet.

4) Judging shall not be made based upon accuracy of OOB decals/marking, but rather on modeling skill of the kit in question.

My fear is the technical accuracy discussions may steer many interested beginner modelers away (e.g., pages and pages of discussion on proper JG markings, colors, and times can become quite complex). They can learn from the upper Class 2 and Class 1 discussions. Modeling is intimidating enough for a beginner just learning the colors, build and painting techniques.

Just my thoughts, gents.

I would also suggest that we solicit names...SOON of whom is going to participate. Late comers should be welcome.

I'll draft up some rules for folks to edit here in a the next hour. Where's my beer...


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## Catch22 (Dec 27, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> Your a Class 2, Les. And for the record, Wayne isn't a Class 3 Catch. He's Class 1 buddy.



There's no possible way he could be good enough to get into Class 1!



And Matt, I agree with what you said. It'll keep it simpler. Perhaps they would be able to change the paint colours if they were completely wrong, but otherwise, I agree.

Should we also perhaps have different categories within the categories, such as in say Class 2: OOB and Class 2: Enhanced?


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## Lucky13 (Dec 27, 2008)

Airframes said:


> As I see it, this is not only a group-build 'competition', but an incentive and tutorial, where modellers on the forum, whatever their skill level, can participate, contribute and gain knowledge/experience/hints/inspiration etc, thereby furthering the enjoyment and sense of achievement whilst at the same time broadening skills and education. Already, the research sparked off has provided valuable historical information that has been shared by all - great stuff!
> Perhaps it might be a good idea to have an historical specialist on board? (Don't like the term 'expert' - 'Ex' means 'has been' and 'Spurt' is a drip under pressure!) It could help in adjudication, and in the case of a tie, or split decisions. Of course, I'm thinking of Erich here! If you fancy it that is Erich!?
> Again, comments/opinions/views welcomed.
> Terry.


That's my thought exactly...what greater way than to build and learn at the same time. These won't just be models to me, but also smaller pieces of history with sometimes a tragic story to tell...pilot and crew or just pilot has been KIA or was and some maybe STILL am MIA. That's one of the reasons that I want to try my fingers on Heinrich Bartels last machine Bf 109G-10 "Yellow 13" W.Nr. 130 359. So far by the small amount that I've found out about him, he loved to dogfight and that he took off on his last flight at 11:00 On 23 December, with his flight and that his wingman was Oberfähnrich Rolf Brand.... Also that he was famous for pranks and drinking, but after getting his Knight's cross, he apparently went a bit too far.
In Petsamo, November 1942:
First he woke up Schuck, and made him drink Cognac, each time pouring the liquor over his new Knight's cross, to "baptize" it. Meanwhile Kurt Dylewski, his inseparable Wingman (also very drunk) started playing the guitar extremely loud and extremely false.
After leaving Schuck (and three empty cognac bottles) Bartels went on a drunken rampage:
First, he tried to steal a truck, but the driver had taken the key. The driver woke up and pulled the drunken Bartels out of the cabin and started beating him up.
After realizing whom he was beating up, the driver panicked and ran into the enlisted quarters, went to bed and pretended to sleep.
Bartels followed him and searched the barracks for the drivers wet boots, finally finding them and promptly beating the crap out of the guy in the bed next to the boots.
The original culprit meanwhile had the upper bed and hid successfully...
After that, Bartels and Dylewski went to the civilian quarters and invaded the billet of the lapland women who were employed in cleaning and washing duties in Petsamo.
He lifted every blanket and each time he shouted (in broad austrian dialect):
"Pfui Teifi, A so a brutaler Wahnsinn, s'stinkt furchtbor noch Kas! Ois Kas, gonz a oiter Kas!"
(roughly translated "wow, it really smells like cheese under here, terrible old cheese!")
The semi-nomadic laplanders had a bit of a strong smell apparently.
Still not ready to call it a night, Bartels went into the stables, and pulled out one of the mules.
He led the mule to the billet of the "Spieß" (Company Sergeant) of his staffel, made it stand halfly on the sleeping man's bed. As Bartels was a Butcher in Civilian life, he knew how to treat animals and the poor mule emptied its bowels over the sleeping Feldwebel, covering him and the entire bed with #%*$#... After that, Bartels finally went to sleep.

Soooo, beside the building I really look forward to learn more about him and other pilots and aircraft and also to gain some experience building!



Wayne Little said:


> So how do YOU fit?.....keeping the description simple.....
> 
> Category/Class 1 : Experienced Modeller with very good skills.
> Category/Class 2 : General Medium level modeller with reasonable skills and good grasp on the basics.
> Category/Class 3 : Beginner/Novice Minimal experience and learning the ropes.


I'm deffo a Class 3 after 20+ years away from the front....


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## Lucky13 (Dec 27, 2008)

Snooping around I also found this website...Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots Missing In Action - Mainpage


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## javlin (Dec 27, 2008)

I am in for at least one entry probably a 1/32 109 as far as class maybe a good 2.I like the ideal Matt to keep it simple as far as judging.I have over the years got kinda ed with trying to fix inaccuracies to please other's qualifications of an a/c.Modeling is suppose to be fun not stressful that's why I mentioned before my 1/72's are just eye candy nothing more just OOB builds.If one wishes to add more,more power to them,I personelly accept the fact that they did the research for such.I think I am ready to bust out of the gate at the "Fairgrounds"


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## Matt308 (Dec 27, 2008)

Okay, here is a first cut at the rules to get things started...

I have the original Wurd file if anyone wants it to make modifications. Let me know and I'll PM them. Can't upload any *.doc over 19.5kB otherwise.
_________________________________________________________


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## Heinz (Dec 27, 2008)

Great outline Matt.


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## Airframes (Dec 28, 2008)

Think that about covers it Matt. It's clear, concise, and K.I.S.S.!


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## Matt308 (Dec 28, 2008)

It was quick and dirty. It needs more work. But the thread process was driving this engineer nuts. I suggest Wayne use this as an outline, correct my mistakes and make proper changes.

Wayne can then post his final version (please change the file name to include a date please to maintain configuration management) and it can be posted in the beginning of this (or the proper submittal) thread.


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## Matt308 (Dec 28, 2008)

I'll be out of pocket, gents, all day tomorrow with a college buddy and his family. Won't be back until Monday 29 Dec. Let me know if you need anything else from me. I think Airframes, Lucky and Wayne can handle it from here. Now I can sit back and enjoy the expected wonderful builds.

Might even see if my son, Aaron, wants to enter his Academy 1/72nd Bf-109G. He's got to finish his Tiffy first though.


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 28, 2008)

Sounds very understandable

I take it "Airplane subject" means the type of aircraft the participant wants to enter and not what markings its in?


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## Wayne Little (Dec 28, 2008)

109ROAMING said:


> Sounds very understandable
> 
> I take it "Airplane subject" means the type of aircraft the participant wants to enter and not what markings its in?



Correct!


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## rochie (Dec 28, 2008)

i think that about covers the rules, and i'm fine with them as they stand now.
cant wait for my 109 K-4 to arrive


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## Wayne Little (Dec 28, 2008)

rochie said:


> VE-day sounds good
> here's my entry in the "beginners class" i'm just doing it out of the box using one of the decal sheets provided, just gotta wait for it to arrive from the shop !





109ROAMING said:


> Nice mate! I'm doing the same kit!



You guys want pics of black 16 and red 7...also quoted as Blue 7? for reference?


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## rochie (Dec 28, 2008)

that would be great wayne, thanks


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## Wayne Little (Dec 28, 2008)

No worries mate, will do some scans.....


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 28, 2008)

Cheers Wayne! much appreciated Mate


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## Wayne Little (Dec 28, 2008)

Ok .....will go and do it now....back soon!


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## rochie (Dec 28, 2008)

wayne/daniel are those two aircraft the ones that revell depict in the kits decal sheet ?
as i've just realised the online sheets i've looked at on the revell website are for the 1/32 K-4


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## Lucky13 (Dec 28, 2008)

A question, since I have minimal experience the last 20+ years with models, I still plan to use flattened wheels, not oot decals but aftermarket ones and possibly prepainted instrument panels, how does work with the classes then...? 8)


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## rochie (Dec 28, 2008)

those seem minimal changes to me lucky, not like your planning to use etched wheel bay liners,seatbelt and cockpit kits etc so i see no problems if you're entering in the beginners class


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 28, 2008)

Mate ,heres what come with my kit


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## rochie (Dec 28, 2008)

cheers mate, i can now check if i've got the correct paint in my box already


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 28, 2008)

No worries


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## rochie (Dec 28, 2008)

Daniel any chance you can list the paints with the RLM numbers if you have them from the instruction sheet for me and are you planning on doing the JG27 or JG53 bird ?


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## Wayne Little (Dec 28, 2008)

Ok here ya go Guys...... your reference! 

Source for Black 16 : Fighter Pictorials Broken Eagles 3 - Bf109G/K part II

Source for Red 7 : Messerschmitt Bf109K First Edition by JaPo


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## rochie (Dec 28, 2008)

cheers wayne


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 28, 2008)

Much appreciated Wayne!

Karl ,Proberly do the bird from JG 53 ,(if I can get some replacement decals)

sorry it doesn't say the paints need in RLM numbers

it just says

A=ANTHRCITE
B=MATT LIGHT OLIVE
C=MATT LIGHT GREY
D=MATT GREEN
E=OLIVE GREY
F=1.YELLOW 2. CLEAR
G=MATT MOUSE GREY
H=CARMIN RED
I=GREENISH GREY
J=METALLIC GREY

Hope it helps


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## rochie (Dec 28, 2008)

thanks mate it helps a lot, i think i've got most of them !
o.k if your doing the JG53 i'll do the other


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## Lucky13 (Dec 28, 2008)

This, I believe will become one h*ll of a interesting and fun group build...who was it that asked if modelbuilding was educational? 8)


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## Lucky13 (Dec 28, 2008)

Maybe this link then might help somewhat 109....

Color Reference Charts -  Germany


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## Wayne Little (Dec 28, 2008)

Daniel, you can have my set if you want....


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## Wayne Little (Dec 28, 2008)

Lucky13 said:


> Maybe this link then might help somewhat 109....
> 
> Color Reference Charts -* Germany



Just checked the late war colours....BEWARE the RLM82 and RLM83 are incorrectly matched up!!

RLM 81 is the Dark Brownish Green.
RLM 82 is the Bright/light Green.
RLM 83 is the Dark Green.


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 28, 2008)

I tell ya ,You guys are so incredibly helpful 

Much appreciated Wayne! ,decals for the JG53 bird?


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## Wayne Little (Dec 28, 2008)

Yes Sir.......send me an email Daniel with your address details!


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 28, 2008)

Thanks so much Wayne ,Il do it now


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## rochie (Dec 28, 2008)

ok after a quick look at daniels post and cross referancing with the sheet for revell's 1/32 bf109 K-4 for JG/27 i think the scheme for my K-4 might be RLM 76/02/81/82 what do you guy's think


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## Wayne Little (Dec 28, 2008)

Well, Rochie....been studying the couple of photo's and doin' some reading...while watching Liverpool V Newcastle....

While I don't claim to be an expert on 'reading' B&W photo's Red 7 appears to have a low contrast scheme of probably 81/82 or 81/83 especially on the fuselage, a high contrast scheme of 75/83 would be rather obvious....much like the rudder shows, which just may be a replacement unit in these colours? 

The port wing looks to be a lower contrast, bit washed out by the sunlight, than the visible portion of the starboard wing....it is possible that the wings could be 75/83...the aircraft for the most part were made in sub assemblies and were painted as such, then brought together for assembly. 

there is one aircraft in the JaPo book that certainly fits this hypothesis.

...and red 7's style of camo probably puts this K-4 in the 331XXX W.Nr. block made in Nov-Dec 1944.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 28, 2008)

Trying to find some info Karl.... Heres a shot of a III./JG27 kite, whose colors are listed as 81/82/76 with RLM25 band....


Found another profile of a 12.III/JG 27 crate that shows 81/83/76...


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## Njaco (Dec 28, 2008)

Les, German for Operation is 'Unternehmen'.

I've decided to do a 1/48 Me 410 B-1/U2/R4 by Pro Modeler/Revell-Monogram. Major Eduard Tratt of II./ZG 26 will be the subject (have to get some Zerstorer Reichs Defense in here!) about Feb 1944 when I belive he was killed.

Some questions:

Does anyone have any solid info on the matkings of his crate other than what is provided in the kit? I believe there was some question as to whether they retained the white Med bands while in Germany.

And can I suggest another category: "Totally Out of My League and My Mind."


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## Lucky13 (Dec 28, 2008)

Njaco said:


> And can I suggest another category: "Totally Out of My League and My Mind."



Then I'd also suggest "What the h*ll was I thinking?" Looking forward to see the progress on this one mate!


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## lesofprimus (Dec 28, 2008)

OK Chris, thanks for gettin that word covered... Doesnt matter much that Unternehman Luftbrücke means Undertake Air Bridge.... That will be the new name for the new thread that I'll get going.....


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## Njaco (Dec 28, 2008)

Can I make another suggestion if it hasn't been covered?

Entrants who will be posting progress pics start a thread with the title "Njacos Group Build" or something similar and the first post should include all particulars, i.e, Category, scale type and possible a pic of the project at the start of the build - like a pic of the box and packaged parts or a pic of the half completed model. Might make it easier on the judges.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 28, 2008)

Good idea Chris....


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## A4K (Dec 28, 2008)

Njaco said:


> And can I suggest another category: "Totally Out of My League and My Mind."



Thanks chris! that sounds like the category for me, Jan's coming in a close second!


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## lesofprimus (Dec 28, 2008)

The new thread has been made and is ready for the entrants proposed builds, questions and discussions....

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/mo...bridge-ww2aircraft-net-group-build-16147.html


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## Njaco (Dec 28, 2008)

Now I'm stuck!!!

on one site I found this......

"He recorded his 38th, and last, victory, another B-17, on 20 February 1944. Tratt was shot down and killed with his Bordschützen Ofw. Gillert in combat near Nordhausen in the Harz mountains on 22 February 1944, flying Me 410 A-1 (W.Nr. 420 410) “3U + Blue 1”."

but in the kit and web it says Tratt flew a 410 B-1/U2/R4 that last day. Anybody have any definate info?


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## Matt308 (Dec 28, 2008)

All future posts on this subject should be in this thread.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/mo...ircraft-net-group-build-16147.html#post434214

Thread closed.


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