# Best Aerobatic Team?



## cheddar cheese (Nov 6, 2005)

Who are the Best Aerobatic Team? Obviously my vote goes to the Frecce Tricolori.

If I missed any tell me and I'll add em.

Frecce Tricolori






Red Arrows





Thunderbirds





Blue Angels





Russian Knights





(Sorry some of the pictures arent that great)


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## Gnomey (Nov 6, 2005)

Red Arrows for me.


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## Archangel (Nov 6, 2005)

i think the Red arrows are the best ones.
ive seen them in action once, and that really made an impact.

tough.. theyre all really great


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## trackend (Nov 6, 2005)

Yes you have missed out one CC the Aerostars my local team from Weald Airdrome, for a civillian team who supply their own aircraft (Yak 50's52's) I think they put on a very good show.
Theres a bit of video on their site
http://www.aerostars.co.uk/


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2005)

I voted for the Blue Angels. I have seen them all up there and I like the Blue Angels the best. I think they are all great though. I also really like what I saw the Russians do with there Mig-29's and Su-27's.


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## Glider (Nov 6, 2005)

Of the ones that I have seen it has to be the Red Arrows but I havn't seen the Blue Angels or the Thunderbirds so cannot really give a final answer.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2005)

Ive seen them all up there. The Thunderbirds are great but the Blue Angels are deffinatly better.

One team that I really really like (I can not remember there name though) is the British Helicopter Acrobatic Team. They are really great. They use Lynx and Gazelle helicopters. Was a really good show.


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## Archangel (Nov 6, 2005)

i like the russion stunt pilots with their mig-29 very much.
is there a stunt team with F-15?


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## pbfoot (Nov 6, 2005)

snowbirds


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2005)

snowbirds? Who uses the F-15 for acrobatics? I know that no US team (or atleast one that I have heard of uses them) The Thunderbirds use the F-16 and the Blue Angels use the F-18.


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## Archangel (Nov 6, 2005)

too bad.. i think with the thrust to weight ration of the f-15.. it could stunt pretty well.


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## trackend (Nov 6, 2005)

Some of the Angels close flying looks bloody close to me as a layman.
I think each team has its specialties so its very hard to pick one, the Arrows precision is superb and the Frecce are very elegant and using the tenth plane is unique to them.
So I'm not going to vote for any single team as each pilot is amongst the elite aviators around the world.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2005)

You just hit the nail there track. They are all very very good and each has what they do the best in. I will just never ask the Frecce Tricolori to do the heart maneuver that they did at the Rammstein Airshow. I was there and it was not pretty. Many people got hurt and some pilots lost there lives.


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## wmaxt (Nov 6, 2005)

I have not had the pleasure to see the European shows but I have seen a half dozen private teams, the Thunderbirds, Snowbirds, and the Blue Angels they are all great but so far the Blue Angels seem to have a wider range of maneuvers so I'll give them the nod.

I have heard there is an F-15 team that will start shows next year. I think they are mostly east coast and support for the Thunderbirds but it will be a great show. 

wmaxt


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2005)

Who are the snowbirds?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2005)

Aha dumb question. I just figured that out. They are the Canadian team.


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## pbfoot (Nov 6, 2005)

what makes the snowbirds different is they don't use a support a/c the gnd
fly with with pilots with one spare bird total compliment of 22


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2005)

The Blue Angels use there Support Aircraft in the shows. They use there C-130 and do some quite amazing things with it.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 6, 2005)

I saw the Frecce Tricolori at Toronto Island Airport about a month before their horrible accident. Upon takeoff the outside aircraft rolled upside down with the landing gear down, retracted their gear as the inside aircraft did the same thing in the opposite direction, then they sucked their gear in. They climbed out upide down then righted them selves, the outside aircraft rolling left, the inside aircraft rolling right. They did this while remaining about 5 feet from each other. Totally Awesome!!!!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2005)

I agree that would have been amazing. All these teams are amazing.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 7, 2005)

The best I've actually seen in person are definitely the Blue Angels. The Snowbirds are boring. The old Tutors they fly are just too slow, and while some of the formations are pretty, it's just not very exciting to watch. You've seen 'em once, you've seen 'em a hundred times. I wish they'd get some of the surplus CF-18's. They could put on some more Blue Angel-esque routines.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 7, 2005)

I would like to find out about the Luftwaffe team. I know they have one, just never hear anything about them. I believe they fly Alphajets. That might be why, not the greatest plane.


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## evangilder (Nov 7, 2005)

Hey NS, I thought I heard that the Snowbirds were being retired. Is that the case?


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 7, 2005)

It's being looked into, but for now they're going to carry on as per normal. I really hope they're not disbanded. We've lost so much already, and this would just be another move in the sh*tty direction. 

I may not think the Snowbirds are the best, but millions of people do. It would be a shame to lose them.


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## evangilder (Nov 7, 2005)

It would be a shame. People love to see display teams and they can be a great recruiting tool too.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 7, 2005)

That they can be. I know so many people who joined just because they saw the Thunderbirds.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 8, 2005)

i say red arrows, and this is something i feel so passionate about that i might actually vote


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## evangilder (Nov 8, 2005)

That would be a first!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 8, 2005)

i haven't voted yet, i'm still contemplating


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## evangilder (Nov 8, 2005)

This will take a while...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 8, 2005)

what will you do to me if i don't?


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## evangilder (Nov 8, 2005)

Hmmm, I will take away your library card.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 8, 2005)

you'll have to find it first..........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 8, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> i say red arrows, and this is something i feel so passionate about that i might actually vote



Ofcourse you would because they are British. If the Red Arrows were to come out and say "We are the shittiest group ever to fly at an airshow and we are disbanding out of  and embaressment." You would argue with them and tell them they are the greatest thing since bread and butter!


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## trackend (Nov 8, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> the lancaster kicks ass said:
> 
> 
> > i say red arrows, and this is something i feel so passionate about that i might actually vote
> ...



I think we should put that to the test Adler........


Lanc. 
I have heard that the Red Arrows are the shittiest group ever to fly at an airshow and are disbanding out of  and embaressment. 

Whats your opinion?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 8, 2005)

i think that, being British, they are the greatest thing since bread and butter and i would waste no time in telling a member of the Red Arrows that.........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 8, 2005)

Told you so, did anyone bet me any money... 8)


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## trackend (Nov 8, 2005)

Well there we have it.

I salute you NCO Adler you were dead right.

Even down to the spread he believes to be best on his bread amazing


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 8, 2005)

LOL


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## trackend (Nov 8, 2005)

We should all be at Radio City what an act. 

*Roll up Roll up
For The Pratt Brothers
If you dont laugh you are either dead
or will be when we send
Les the Seal round*


(I hope that meets with your approval)
(Seal of approval (get it))


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 8, 2005)

nice...........

and of course there's CC for the freak show...........


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## trackend (Nov 8, 2005)

Oh yes he is unique with his flat cap spinning act which is much more difficult than plate spinning


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 8, 2005)

we could have a WWII aircraft.net roadshow.........


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 8, 2005)

trackend said:


> We should all be at Radio City what an act.
> 
> *Roll up Roll up
> For The Pratt Brothers
> ...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 8, 2005)

yes, just what he was thinking i'm sure..........


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## trackend (Nov 8, 2005)

I did a weekly serial once with a group of people on the CB with each person having the script and broadcasting their lines in turn.
It actually worked really well until a bucket mouth called Adolf came on the air with a set of 5000 watt boots and swamped our traffic.


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## Gnomey (Nov 8, 2005)

LOL guys!


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## pbfoot (Nov 8, 2005)

okay here we go best team was blue angels in the A4 close with speed and racket and real combat a/c the best 6 plane team and golden hawks in 2nd
Red Arrows best large team choice over snowbirds just because of a/c type hawk over tutor the snowbirds and arrows were the same when arrows flew the gnat
take the thunderbirds in phantom for heavy metal and for the prettiest the Frecce Tricolori
i've never seen the russian guys and so many others like the roullettes Raaf or rnlaf helicopter guys


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 8, 2005)

The Golden Hawks were only around for about five years, weren't they? I wonder how good they were. You mean you've actually seen them? That was back in the late 50's/early 60's. How old _are_ you anyway? 

It looks like the Snowbirds might finally share their fate. I really hope not.


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## pbfoot (Nov 8, 2005)

cummin up on 55 i'm 5 ft 17in and about 100kg with brown eyes and hair and don't have any naval traits


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 8, 2005)

pbfoot said:


> ...and don't have any naval traits


Such as?


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## pbfoot (Nov 8, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> pbfoot said:
> 
> 
> > ...and don't have any naval traits
> ...


a beard


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 8, 2005)

Neither do I. I couldn't grow one even if I wanted to. Too much of a baby face I guess. 
Ah well.


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## 102first_hussars (Nov 9, 2005)

NS your body has to conserve all hair fibers so you can grow a Perrot on your shoulder 



Im hurt that nobody even considered the Snowbirds.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 9, 2005)

Have to do something to be considered. It is not all about national pride you know.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 9, 2005)

102first_hussars said:


> Im hurt that nobody even considered the Snowbirds.


Go back and read the first page again then. pbfoot likes them. They're ok, it's just that they're not my personal favourite by a long shot.


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## pbfoot (Nov 9, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> 102first_hussars said:
> 
> 
> > Im hurt that nobody even considered the Snowbirds.
> ...


don't like snowturds I usually depart airshow when they come on to beat traffic they are good and fly a tight routine its just a boring a/c. Gotta give them credit as they use no support a/c 11 tutors including 1 spare .One pilot and one tech per a/c says loads about ground crew the teams i wish i could see were the raf/rcaf teams in the 30's that flew the routine chained together not sure of raf team name but rcaf guys were called the siskins


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 9, 2005)

Frecce Frecce Frecce...

Awesome story you posted on the first page Joe...that would be a helluva sight...


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## evangilder (Nov 9, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> Frecce Frecce Frecce...



Reminded me of the nights who say NI!


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 9, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> Frecce Frecce Frecce...
> 
> Awesome story you posted on the first page Joe...that would be a helluva sight...



When I saw them do that I just about sh*t myself! They did a really neat show right over Lake Ontario.


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## Glider (Nov 9, 2005)

I once saw a film of a couple of A4's from the NZ airforce. They did a display with one of them carrying a buddy refueling sytem and the other was plugged into it during the whole display. 
I don't know if it was a formal display team but it was pretty impressive.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 10, 2005)

What kind of maneuvers did they do. I would imagine not much being connected like that with a hose.


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## Glider (Nov 10, 2005)

The only one I remember was a roll which must have been fun. They wouldn't have had much power to play with.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 10, 2005)

The aero demostration team that Claire Chenault was in used to do that as well, chaining the aircraft together...


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## Glider (Nov 10, 2005)

It was quite common between the wars for UK display teams to do a show with all the planes tied together but I don't know what types of maneuvers were undertaken


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 10, 2005)

Glider said:


> It was quite common between the wars for UK display teams to do a show with all the planes tied together but I don't know what types of maneuvers were undertaken



Slow rolls, lazy 8s, loops, all in one tight formation!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 11, 2005)

That must be awesome to see. I have never even heard of it till now. Wish I could see that also.


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## evangilder (Nov 11, 2005)

I would think it would be scariest on takeoff and landing.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 11, 2005)

Here's a picture of the team Chanault was in


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 11, 2005)

Wow cool pic.


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## trackend (Nov 11, 2005)

Glider said:


> It was quite common between the wars for UK display teams to do a show with all the planes tied together but I don't know what types of maneuvers were undertaken



As a lad my dad went to see Captain Blacks Flying Circus at 
Maylands Airfield in Essex.
He said they did the cutting balloons with the wings trick while flying upside down ect and for half a crown (two shillings and sixpence),
Captain Black himself would take you up for a joy ride. 
My dad and his mate only had four shillings between them but the old boy said he would take them both up together.
In they scrambled to this old biplane and the assistant strapped them down (one belt over both their laps). A couple humps on the prop and the engine coughed into life. Away they went down the grass runway everything rattling and shaking until it slowly rose into the air.
Even as a 11 year old my dad didnt like the way the wings appeared to move independantly to the fuslage all the rigging was so slack that the planes wings seemed to take off before the plane. After a ten minute fly round Captain Black bought the two boys back to ground in one piece. 
A week later Captain Blacks flying circus was closed by the authorities due to unsafe aircraft.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 11, 2005)

Wow great story. Must have been a blast though even though the aircraft were deemed unsafe.


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## evangilder (Nov 11, 2005)

Yikes! Good thing your dad made it through.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 11, 2005)

Hell like I allways say, an aircraft aint flying unless it is held together with duct tape, chewing gum, and piano wire!


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## trackend (Nov 11, 2005)

My old man thinks its really funny as he thought it was great at the time like being a WW1 ace. Not that many working class people in the UK had ever been up in a plane in the early 30s, in fact my own first flight was a ten minute joy ride at 14 for a birthday present.
My first real flight was on a 707 at 21.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 11, 2005)

Damn must have been a lont time ago. Not many use the 707 anymore.


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## trackend (Nov 11, 2005)

Steady on Adler  It was a old plane when I used it I think in 1971 or 2, if I remember


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 11, 2005)

LOL just trying to get a raz out of you.


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## Glider (Nov 11, 2005)

My Fathers claim to fame was that he went on the Hindenberg in Germany before it went to the States and was destroyed. He has these photo's of typical British 30's types having tea in front of the unbelievably huge hanger doors. With the exception of the Kennedy Space Center I have never seen anything like it, you have no idea just how big these things look. The people having tea are simply dots on the bottom of the photo.
The Hindengurg was in the hanger and for obvious reasons no photo's were allowed inside.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 12, 2005)

Wow that is impressive!


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## trackend (Nov 12, 2005)

Brilliant, I'd love to see those shots GL .
Was it in the hangers at Cardington near Bedford or In Germany Glider


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 12, 2005)

Wow those are amazining. They are still standing today?


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## trackend (Nov 12, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Wow those are amazining. They are still standing today?



Yes Adler I believe so . I think there the biggest unsupported buildings In the UK originally the R101 was built there. At the moment they sometimes put Dirigibles and Blimps in them, bit like a pea in a bucket really.


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## Glider (Nov 12, 2005)

No he was in Germany when he saw the Hindenberg. The hangers at Cardington are still up and are sometimes used for various projects.

I need to get hold of a suitable scanner to post the shots. There are only about three of them. I only have a negative scanner.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 12, 2005)

Here are some blimp hangars at Tustin, CA. The Marines operated there up to a few years ago and used to fly their helicopters through them.

http://www.militarymuseum.org/MCASTustin.html


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 12, 2005)

Very interesting. All of it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 13, 2005)

Yes I would really love to see those pics though.


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## Glider (Nov 13, 2005)

I will put together a number of his shots and start a new thread. There are a few interesting ones of Germany just before the war, plus the ones that he had during the war when serving with the 8th Army. When I have them collated I will put them in a thread.
My fathers story is a little unusual. He left Germany three days before war broke out. Started out as a Concientious objector when called up in 1940 and ended up as an Regimental Sargent Major in the RAMC. I will use the pictures to add detail and substance to the story.
All I ask is I don't want people jumping to conclusions. You don't make the leap from C Objector to RSM by being a whimp. 
This will take time as I have to track things down and get the scanner from my son at university when he finished this term in about 6 weeks time.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 13, 2005)

Cool looking foward to it.


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## Chris_G (Jan 3, 2006)

I've seen pretty much all the European teams. I've got to say i enjoy the Patrouille Suisse, especially when they fire flares on their last pass. The Reds are always good as are the PDF and the Italians are cool too, Just they never seem to do different routines its the same year after year.

edit - I used to live in Bedford, just down the road from the Cardington Hangers. It used to be home to some 'reserve aircraft' for the Hendon Museum i think, and during the 80's there was a commercial airship operation running from there and they were regular sights over the town. 8) 8) happy days!


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## Chris_G (Jan 3, 2006)

Just a couple of pics of the Reds this year.................


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## Gnomey (Jan 3, 2006)

Nice shots Chris, keep them coming 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 4, 2006)

Last time I saw them was back in 1997 at the Interenational Air Feat in England. It was a great airshow.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 4, 2006)

they even have a formation dedicated to the lancaster which i rather like!


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## LTARaptr (Jan 26, 2006)

Being a navy brat I gotta vote for the Blue Angels, saw them when I was a kid they were still flyin' the F-4 back then. I lived right by the airport they did thier show in Florida and Boss flew so low I could damn near see his nose hair. As for thier C-130 support plane all I can say is R.A.T is freekin' kewl.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 28, 2006)

I agree the Blue Angels are the best for me also and I have seen them several times but all of the Aerobatic teams are awesome and do wonderful jobs and are fun to watch!


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## vijaykumar (Jul 14, 2007)

In my opinion Russian Knight is the best aerobatics team in the the world.
There uniqueness lies in the fact they are only one who perform aerobatics with heavy fighters.
As you all might be knowing that heavier the plane harder to control it.
Thus east or west RUSSIAN KNIGHT are the best.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 14, 2007)

vijaykumar said:


> As you all might be knowing that heavier the plane harder to control it.


In what terms? Heavy in weight or on the control? The heavier an aircraft is the easier it is to penetrate rough air. They fly Su 27s with a good flight control system. Its weight has nothing to do with their ability to fly formation aerobatics....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 14, 2007)

With fly by wire technology it does not matter if your aircraft is heavy....


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## Desert Fox (Jul 19, 2007)

Has anyone seen the Australian Aerobatic Team, the Roulettes, in action? I haven't, just wondering if they're any good.


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## Wildcat (Jul 19, 2007)

Desert Fox said:


> Has anyone seen the Australian Aerobatic Team, the Roulettes, in action? I haven't, just wondering if they're any good.



I think they're fantastic, very professional. Just a shame they use the PC-9 and not something more "sexy" such as F/A 18's.


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## Desert Fox (Jul 19, 2007)

That is true, I reckon the F/A 18 is a damn fine plane. The Wide Bay International Air Show is on in Bundaberg QLD, Australia on the 3 4 5 August. I'll have to double check my facts, but I think the Roulettes are appearing.


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## davparlr (Jul 22, 2007)

I had to vote for the Blue Angels even though I was an AF guy. From a the time I was a kid I would watch them practice from my back yard and fly over my house to make a landing. First I remember the F9Fs, then the F11Fs, the F-4s, A-4s, and finally the F-18s. The is much more polished now and the flying appears tighter and manuevers more impressive. The F-18, I think, made a big difference.

I am sure they are all great, but Blues have my heart.


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## ccheese (Jul 23, 2007)

The group from Canada.... Quite good, I might add.

Charles


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## alexyflemming (Aug 11, 2009)

TURKISH STARS IS THE ONLY AEROBATIC TEAM IN THE WORLD WITH 8 SUPERSONIC NF5 AIRCRAFT.

Turkish Stars is performing their air shows with 900 kms/h. If you watch some Turkish Stars air show, then you will feel that the others is LIKE SLOW MOTION. 

Best tight formations and manuevres are presented by Turkish Stars till now. 

The BEST AEROBATIC SHOW IN THE WORLD TILL NOW IS:
Turkish Stars - (AirPower09 Zeltweg Austria 2009)

AirPower09 Day 1 F 53 Tiger Turkish Stars Part.2 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_gWkKxFT24_

After watching this video, you can see that the aerobatic teams of other countries CANNOT BE IN THE SAME CLASS WITH TURKISH STARS. There are GIANT DIFFERENCE with TURKISH STARS and the OTHERS.


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## Bucksnort101 (Aug 12, 2009)

I always liked the Red Baron Squadron in thier Super Stearmans, but they have been mothballed.
If you ever have a chance to see John Mohr doing aerobatics in a vintage 1943 Stearman I would suggest you do so. What he does in that aircraft is simple amazing!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 12, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> TURKISH STARS IS THE ONLY AEROBATIC TEAM IN THE WORLD WITH 8 SUPERSONIC NF5 AIRCRAFT.
> 
> Turkish Stars is performing their air shows with 900 kms/h. If you watch some Turkish Stars air show, then you will feel that the others is LIKE SLOW MOTION.
> 
> ...




I would take the Blue Angels or the Thunderbirds over them anyday. Don't take me wrong, the Stars are great (all of the teams are), but having seen most of the worlds teams at airshows, no one compares to the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds.

By the way the Turkish Stars are not the only team flying Supersonic aircraft...


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## Messy1 (Aug 12, 2009)

I have only seen the Thunderbirds back in the late 80's at a airshow in Des Moines. My pop always told me the Blue Angels were better than the T-birds, always said the B.A's flew tighter, more technical maneuvers. I would love to be able to judge them all by first hand accounts though, means I would be at a lot of shows!


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## pbfoot (Aug 12, 2009)

There were 2 CF5 teams up here called the 434 Schooner Bluenosers and 419 Rut Zulus albeit they were unofficial , however they did put on one of the best lo flying displays I've ever witnessed they came over inverted and you could almost read the instruments


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

Let us look first 
HISTORY AND POTENTIAL OF AEROBATIC TEAMS PERFORMANCE DATA OF AEROBATIC TEAMS


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

*: Proof: 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_gWkKxFT24_ (Best Aerobatic Show of the world by the Best Aerobatic Team of the World)

*COMPARISON OF FRECCE TRICOLORI TURKISH STARS*
Frecce Tricolori use Aermacchi MB-339 PAN (max speed: 898 km/h; NOT SUPERSONIC) whereas Turkish Stars use NF5 (max speed: 1700 km/h; SUPERSONIC). If one watches 4 or 5 videos of Turkish Stars first and then s/he watches Frecce Tricolori, s/he feels as if s/he is watching A SLOW MOTION VIDEO; s/he cannot endure to watch 1-minute video of Frecce Tricolori since HUMAN PSYCHOLOGY CANNOT ENDURE A SLOW MOTION VIDEO OF MORE THAN 1-MINUTE. COMPARING TURKISH STARS AND FRECCE TRICOLORI is like COMPARING HORSE AND DONKEY.
*COMPARISON OF RED ARROWS TURKISH STARS*
Red Arrows use Hawk T1A (max speed: 1037 km/h; NOT SUPERSONIC) whereas Turkish Stars use NF5 (max speed: 1700 km/h; SUPERSONIC). If one watches 4 or 5 videos of Turkish Stars first and then s/he watches Red Arrows, s/he feels as if s/he is watching A SLOW MOTION VIDEO; s/he cannot endure to watch 1-minute video of Red Arrows since HUMAN PSYCHOLOGY CANNOT ENDURE A SLOW MOTION VIDEO OF MORE THAN 1-MINUTE. COMPARING TURKISH STARS AND RED ARROWS is like COMPARING HORSE AND DONKEY.
Also, (anyway, for those who wish to see a small comparison):
Look at the videos of BOTH Red Arrows and Turkish Stars to see the difference:
AirPower09 Day 1 F 53 Tiger Turkish Stars Part.2 : 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_gWkKxFT24_ 
Red Arrows : 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qT3J-knLSY_ 

*COMPARISON OF THUNDERBIRDS TURKISH STARS*
Turkish Stars is the only aerobatic team of the world that can make tight helix climbing!
Variants (Matrix, Tight helix climbing etc. as well as Delta, Victor, Diamond, etc.) of Turkish Stars is richer than the Thunderbirds (Classics: Delta, Victor, Diamond, etc.)

*A. Tightness:*
Thunderbirds’ tightness is bad when compared to that of Turkish Stars:
Thunderbirds: 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_gWkKxFT24_ (video)
*B. Number of Supersonic Jets: *
Both are Supersonic whereas Turkish Stars fly with 8 jets, Thunderbirds fly with 6 jets. 
*C. Mirror image: *
Thunderbirds: There is a SMALL distance to the mirror:

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_gWkKxFT24_ (video)

*B. Number of Supersonic Jets: *
Both are Supersonic whereas Turkish Stars fly with 8 jets, Blue Angels fly with 6 jets. 
*C. Discipline:*
UN-disciplined Blue Angels (of US Army) versus ULTRA-disciplined Turkish Stars (of Turkish Army):
On October 30, 2008 a spokesman for Blue Angels announced that the team would complete its last three performances of the year with five jets instead of six. The change was because one pilot and another officer in the organization had been removed from duty for engaging in an "inappropriate relationship". The Navy stated that one of the individuals was a man and the other a woman, one a Marine and the other from the Navy, and that Rear Admiral Mark Guadagnini, chief of Naval air training, was reviewing the situation. At the next performance at Lackland Air Force Base following the announcement the #4 or slot pilot, was absent from the formation. A spokesman for the team would not confirm the identity of the pilot removed from the team. On November 6, 2008 both officers were found guilty at an admiral's mast on unspecified charges but the resulting punishment was not disclosed. 
*D. Mirror image: *
Blue Angels: There is a SMALL distance to the mirror:
Turkish Stars: There is a NO distance to the mirror (though Turkish Stars photo is more zoomed if compared to Thunderbirds!), still there is close distance to the mirror for Turkish Stars if compared to the Thunderbirds):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Turkish_Stars.jpg 
http://www.turkyildizlari.hvkk.mil.tr/dosyalar/tersduz2.jpg


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 13, 2009)

Gee that chart looks real official - who made it?? It also seems to be missing some data to support a rational discussion. And who is making the flying critique - you? Are you a rated pilot who performed in airshows?


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## Messy1 (Aug 13, 2009)

And exactly how does this explain why the Turkish Stars are the best? 
The second chart is missing data for everyone but the Turkish Stars.
Just curious.


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## imalko (Aug 13, 2009)

Unfortunatelly, I have to admit that I haven't seen any of the aerobatic teams listed above so I can not vote them. Only aerobatic team I have seen are Serbian "Stars" aerobatic team which is formed from retired military pilots, most of whom once were members of former "Flying stars" aerobatic team of Yugoslav AF. This team ceased to exist after their G-4 Super Galebs were destroyed in NATO bombing in 1999.

Hopefully, I will see Frecce Tricolory soon, since it was said they will participate at Batajnica Air Show in Serbia in September this year.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 13, 2009)

I’ve seen the Blue Angels, Frecce Tricolori, Red Arrows, Thunderbirds, and Snowbirds. All the teams get better as the air show season progresses. Each team brings a uniqueness that is based on the performance of their aircraft and the format of their show.

With that said, and F-5 IS NOT a friendly aircraft in slow flight. It cannot maneuver like an F-15, 18 or even an Su 27.

Have you ever seen a show briefed and planned? You're criticizing some of the maneuvers without knowing the dimensions of the show track and the altitude of the hard deck. The fact that one team has more aircraft in its display than another is just rubbish as is the "tightness of their turns."

Mirrior Image? Do you relize that each team establishes guidlines on how close they will get based on aircraft performance, speed and altitude? And with that said the only way you're ever going to really measure that is to fly along side of them and get a straight on perspective.

The true measure of an aerobatic display team is how they perform their show based on the briefed plan. Some look better than others in certain situations but as stated all bring a uniqueness based on their aircraft and the maneuvers they could safely do.

Accidents rates? More rubbish - look at the accident rates of each team based on shows, sorties flown and numbers of years in existence and you'll get a true measure of the team's performance.

Oh and let's not forget - have a critique done by a rated pilot (more than one preferably) who has participated n such a show and then there is room for comparison. At that point you could start filling the open squares in your chart.

And bringing up poor behavior is more rubbish. Perhaps those offiers who were disciplined (the story was offered up by the US Navy, we have transparancy in our military when things like this happen) will now go golfing with General Babaoğlu.


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## ccheese (Aug 13, 2009)

I'm curious as to where the chart originated.... who made it ?? Strange how so many blocks are empty.

Charles


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## Flyboy2 (Aug 13, 2009)

I voted for the Thunderbirds, partly because they are based in Las Vegas! 
I love being outside during practice at school before an air show cause you can see them practicing out by Nellis


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## Messy1 (Aug 13, 2009)

That would be cool FB2!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 13, 2009)

I don't buy your information. 

Why?

1. The chart is nothing official. Looks like you made it on a spread sheet.

2. You omitted so much information in the chart, and only added what you needed to prove your point. Kind of pointless huh? 

3. Your comparisons are *your opinion*. While I respect that, they are not fact. They are your opinion and your opinion alone. Nothing else.

Oh and by the way, you said the Blue Angels were of the US Army. They are not of the US Army. They are the *US Navy*....

Also I would like to know your qualifications in making your "judgments".


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

1.


> F-5 IS NOT a friendly aircraft in slow flight. It cannot maneuver like an F-15, 18 or even an Su 27:


F-5 has already been proved to be the BEST SUPERSONIC JET FOR AEROBATIC SHOWS. Many analysis were done before selecting that jet. 

The truth of analises were proven: Turkish Stars make better maneuvers than the teams having F-15, F-18, Su 27! (tightness, close mirror image,...). There are approximately 130 reasons why NF5 jets are the best jets for airshows. 

2.


> Dimensions of the show track and the altitude of the hard deck


These are THE SAME when the aerobatic teams perform IN THE SAME AIRSHOW PLACE! Hence, in some countries, the aforementioned aerobatic teams performed in the SAME WEEK in the SAME AIR CONDITIONS in the same AIRBASE!

3.


> The fact that one team has more aircraft in its display than another is just rubbish


If you fly alone, then the 3D-complexity-count is only 1 (you care to yourself, you do NOT need to care any block of jets other than you. You alone are the BLOCK.). If you fly with some other pilot together (2 planes), then 3D-complexity-count is 6 (A cares A, A cares B, B cares A, B cares B, A cares the 2-block, B cares the 2-block), If you fly with other 2 planes, then 3D-complexity-count increases (A needs to care NOT ONLY THE OTHER JETS separately, but also the other 2 planes (the BLOCKEDNESS of the other two)),… 3D-complexity-count exponentially increases. 
Forming the BLOCK with 8 jets is HARDER THAN forming the BLOCK with 6 jets! One cannot turn tightly in safe feelings when the number increases!
4.


> Mirror Image: (aircraft performance, speed and altitude, …)


Though the some of the aforementioned aerobatic teams are all SUPERSONIC, Turkish Stars performs “mirror image” better than the others even under difficult conditions (high speed Low altitude)! 
ALSO: Members of Turkish Stars are elected from F-16 squadrons of Turkish Air Force (F-16 that ThunderBirds uses!). Members of Turkish Stars performed “<1 meter mirror image” with F-16s as well when they are in F-16 squadrons. So, the ABSENCE of “<1 meter mirror image” of ThunderBirds comes from NOT the potential of the jet they use, but the capability they have (more truly, they do NOT have)!

5.


> Accidents rates:


If I said “accident NUMBERS”, then you would be right. But, I said “accident RATES! The RATIO of accidents (number of accidents/<total shows+sorties>) are very high for Thunderbirds!
6. Filling the open squares in the chart:
NOT possible for some squares: ThunderBirds uses F-16s, if their data is explained, then the capability of them is also revealed since there are F-16 squadrons in many countries. US Army does NOT want that.
*PLEASE GIVE THE LINK OF VIDEOS OF BEST SHOW OF THE OTHER SUPERSONIC AEROBATIC TEAMS….
I GAVE THAT FOR TURKISH STARS! IF YOU WRITE, ALL OF US CAN EASILY REALIZE MY DATA: “TURKISH STARS IS THE BEST AEROBATIC TEAM OF THE WORLD”*


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## Gnomey (Aug 13, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> *PLEASE GIVE THE LINK OF VIDEOS OF BEST SHOW OF THE OTHER SUPERSONIC AEROBATIC TEAMS….
> I GAVE THAT FOR TURKISH STARS! IF YOU WRITE, ALL OF US CAN EASILY REALIZE MY DATA: “TURKISH STARS IS THE BEST AEROBATIC TEAM OF THE WORLD”*



BULLSHIT. Your data is bullshit, your rational is bullshit, the whole lot is bullshit. What basis (other than 'national pride') do you have to qualify them. You are just talking bullshit....


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 13, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> 1F-5 has already been proved to be the BEST SUPERSONIC JET FOR AEROBATIC SHOWS. Many analysis were done before selecting that jet.


And where is your proof of that? Who did the analysis and what criterion was used?


alexyflemming said:


> The truth of analises were proven: Turkish Stars make better maneuvers than the teams having F-15, F-18, Su 27! (tightness, close mirror image,...). There are approximately 130 reasons why NF5 jets are the best jets for airshows.


And those 130 reasons based on a technical presentation of each aircraft?



alexyflemming said:


> These are THE SAME when the aerobatic teams perform IN THE SAME AIRSHOW PLACE! Hence, in some countries, the aforementioned aerobatic teams performed in the SAME WEEK in the SAME AIR CONDITIONS in the same AIRBASE!


*WRONG* - in the states and many other countries the aerobatic "BOX" changes based on the airfield in which the team is performing, especially if the show is at a civilian field and this is also governed by input of local Civil Aeronautics authority and the FAA if the show is in the US


alexyflemming said:


> If you fly alone, then the 3D-complexity-count is only 1 (you care to yourself, you do NOT need to care any block of jets other than you. You alone are the BLOCK.). If you fly with some other pilot together (2 planes), then 3D-complexity-count is 6 (A cares A, A cares B, B cares A, B cares B, A cares the 2-block, B cares the 2-block), If you fly with other 2 planes, then 3D-complexity-count increases (A needs to care NOT ONLY THE OTHER JETS separately, but also the other 2 planes (the BLOCKEDNESS of the other two)),… 3D-complexity-count exponentially increases.
> Forming the BLOCK with 8 jets is HARDER THAN forming the BLOCK with 6 jets! One cannot turn tightly in safe feelings when the number increases!


And you know this how? Have you ever flown in a jet in an aerobatic formation?



alexyflemming said:


> Though the some of the aforementioned aerobatic teams are all SUPERSONIC, Turkish Stars performs “mirror image” better than the others even under difficult conditions (high speed Low altitude)!
> ALSO: Members of Turkish Stars are elected from F-16 squadrons of Turkish Air Force (F-16 that ThunderBirds uses!). Members of Turkish Stars performed “<1 meter mirror image” with F-16s as well when they are in F-16 squadrons. So, the ABSENCE of “<1 meter mirror image” of ThunderBirds comes from NOT the potential of the jet they use, but the capability they have (more truly, they do NOT have)!


And I would bet any of the other teams can do the same maneuver if permitted to do so and if the aircraft is capable of doing it as well as if it could be done safely. Again, have you ever flown in formation in a jet to express this is an authority?!?!?

Can the Turkish Stars do slow flight at 120 knots? I'll give you a hint, the F-5 stalls at 137 knots.






BTW - that at 125 knots



alexyflemming said:


> If I said “accident NUMBERS”, then you would be right. But, I said “accident RATES! The RATIO of accidents (number of accidents/<total shows+sorties>) are very high for Thunderbirds!


And of course the Thunderbird rates are going to be higher, they been around almost 5 times longer than the Stars and fly twice the shows.

Here's the Turkish Stars 2009 Schedule
Turkish Stars 2009 show schedule
23-24 May - Bulgaria, Plovdiv, Bulgarian International Aviation Festival 
9-20 June - Holland, Volkel, Royal Netherlands Air Force Show-2009 
26-27 June - Austria, Zeltweg Airpower-09 
20 July - North Cyprus, Girne KKTC Peace And Freedeom Day 
15 November - North Cyprus, Girne KKTC National Day 

Thunderbirds
March 
21-22 Luke AFB, AZ 
28-29 MacDill AFB, FL 
April 
4-5 Keesler AFB, MS 
18-19 Ceiba, Puerto Rico 
25-26 Langley AFB, VA 
May 
2-3 Robins AFB, GA 
9-10 Branson, MO 
15-17 Andrews AFB, MD 
23-24 Wantagh, NY (Jones Beach) 
27 USAF Academy, CO 
30-31 Ellsworth AFB, SD 
June 
6-7 Hill AFB, UT 
13-14 Ocean City, MD 
20-21 Dover AFB, DE 
27-28 Helena, MT 
July 
4-5 Battle Creek, MI 
11-12 Peoria, IL 
18-19 Dayton, OH 
22 Cheyenne, WY 
25-26 Milwaukee, WI 
August 
8-9 Vienna, OH (Youngstown ARB) 
15-16 Chicago, IL 
19 Atlantic City, NJ 
22-23 Selfridge ANGB, MI 
29-30 Hillsboro, OR 
September 
5-7 Cleveland, OH 
12-13 Sacramento, CA 
19-20 Hickam AFB, HI 
September 22- October 26 
Thunderbirds 2009 Far East 
Nov 
7-8 Homestead ARB, FL 
14-15 Nellis AFB, NV 




alexyflemming said:


> Filling the open squares in the chart:
> NOT possible for some squares: ThunderBirds uses F-16s, if their data is explained, then the capability of them is also revealed since there are F-16 squadrons in many countries. US Army does NOT want that.


The data is available to show flight performance of the F-16 and by the way, the US army does not operate F-16s.



alexyflemming said:


> *PLEASE GIVE THE LINK OF VIDEOS OF BEST SHOW OF THE OTHER SUPERSONIC AEROBATIC TEAMS….
> I GAVE THAT FOR TURKISH STARS! IF YOU WRITE, ALL OF US CAN EASILY REALIZE MY DATA: “TURKISH STARS IS THE BEST AEROBATIC TEAM OF THE WORLD”*


Your data shows nothing but nationalistic pride and gibberish. You have provided no technical data, aircraft performance numbers, Wing loading and power to weight ratios to show the F-5 is "the best air show aircraft."

BTW most of this information you're lacking can be found on Wikipedia


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## Messy1 (Aug 13, 2009)

And your explanation of the missing data for the Thunderbirds is also bogus! I am guessing that since the F16 has been one of the most commercially successful fighter aircraft of all time as far as sales go, and since in your own words, "_*since there are F-16 squadrons in many countries*_", I'd say the performance capabilities of the F16 are well known all over the world, especially by those countries operating the F-16 outside of the US at the very least, I am sure they know the capabilities firsthand, they do not need the US Military to publish anything.


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## Butters (Aug 13, 2009)

Not true, foolish Alexy from Turkey! Canadian Snowbirds fly not with child's-play 8 aircraft formation, but much more bad, scary feeling ELEVEN plane formations! And supersonic speed useless at airshow -only make many baby cry and window break! 

Brave Canadian Snowbirds also fly so much closer than timid Turk pilots. Entire Snowbird formation could fly between huge gaps in nervous Turkish Stars formation! Snowbird formation actually fastened together by velcro on wing-tips. Is true! Rude Snowbird pilot thumb nose at Death!

Snowbirds are best! They are like flock of birds that fly very close in winter! Turkish team called 'Stars' because formations so far apart must be measured in light-years!

JL


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

There are many objections raised from USA, Canada, UK. 
Some gave me the links as well:

1.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoZWncrIbfQ_ 
Aerobatic Show of PRE-HISTORIC AGES!

3. 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM_ZB7jqxz8_ 
Blue Angels pilots’ undisciplined behaviours continues in their shows as well (Hear the sounds of the pilots).
Also, this is a cockpit video. I WANT NON-COCKPIT VIDEO.


BEST AEROBATIC SHOW OF THE WORLD BY THE BEST AEROBATIC TEAM OF THE WORLD)
AirPower09 Day 1 F 53 Tiger Turkish Stars Part.2 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_gWkKxFT24_ 

*I DO NOT WANT TO READ ANY POST WITH NATIONALISTIC ATTITUDES.
I WANT A VIDEO PROOF THAT THERE IS ANOTHER AEROBATIC TEAM IN THE WORLD BETTER THAN TURKISH STARS. VIDEO PLEASE! NOT RIDICULUOUS WORDS BY THOSE WHO ARE FOREIGNER TO THE SUBJECT.*


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 13, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> *I DO NOT WANT TO READ ANY POST WITH NATIONALISTIC ATTITUDES.
> I WANT A VIDEO PROOF THAT THERE IS ANOTHER AEROBATIC TEAM IN THE WORLD BETTER THAN TURKISH STARS. VIDEO PLEASE! NOT RIDICULUOUS WORDS BY THOSE WHO ARE FOREIGNER TO THE SUBJECT.*



*ARE YOU A PILOT? HAVE YOU EVER PERFORMED IN AN AIRSHOW OR FLOWN A JET IN FORMATION???*​
You have provided no documented proof to support your aurguments. Video? Ha! *THE VIDEO DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT!*

I think you're just some ground pounding wanna-be that has never been in an airplane! *Please come up with some substantiated proof from pilots or data from flight manuals to prove your points.*


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## pbfoot (Aug 13, 2009)

How many guys including maintainers are in the Turkish Stars the Snowbirds including Pilots and maintainers is 22 or 11 pilots and 11 maintainers and they perform over a far greater area usually over 1500 km away from their homebase


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## Messy1 (Aug 13, 2009)

I sense a lock-on coming for a kill soon.


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

pbfoot:
I wondered who are Snowbirds: I examined and found that:
Canadian Snowbirds: 
Canadair CL-41 Tutor : (never exceed speed: 763 km/h).

I already seperated the Aerobatic Teams in two main groups:
HORSES: Supersonic ones.
DONKEYS: Not supersonic ones.

Snowbirds even cannot make Turkish Primary School pupils (accostomed to HIGH SPEED ADRENALIN SHOWS) enjoy with them some couple of hours. They get bored immediately. Surely! 

VIDEOS ARE STILL WAITING (for the objectors)!


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## Messy1 (Aug 13, 2009)

Alexy, your OPINION is not based on facts, it is your opinion. When make a post and cite figures on this forum, you need to have your stuff together and have complete figures for all items you are comparing. The members of this forum are very technical minded people, they eat and sleep facts, figures, stats, etc. You cannot provide anything except loose figures, and some videos you pulled off the web.


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

*DEFINITION OF MIRROR IMAGE:*: Combing the hair from the cockpit of your friend (Less than 1 meters)





*ANOTHER NICE DEFINITION: *


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## Gnomey (Aug 13, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> *I DO NOT WANT TO READ ANY POST WITH NATIONALISTIC ATTITUDES.
> *



Have you read your own posts


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 13, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> pbfoot:
> I wondered who are Snowbirds: I examined and found that:
> Canadian Snowbirds:
> Canadair CL-41 Tutor : (never exceed speed: 763 km/h).
> ...



OK - the gloves are off....

What does the speed of the aircraft or the show have to do with the team's ability to perform aerobatics?????? Evidently you are either very ignorant about flying or just very stupid or a combination of all of the above. Again you keep asking about video but you have displayed an ignorance about this subject matter so far that shows that you probably have never set foot in an aircraft. With that said if you don't start providing substancial proof of your arguments you will not be part of this equasion much longer.


And BTW - you keep posting crap about discrediting the Blue Angles - who is the one with the nationalistic attitude?!?! How about I keep posting articles about the way you guys are bombing the crap out of the Kurds?????

You're on thin ice, put your money where your mouth is or you will be shot into cyberspace!!!!


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

I Sent VIDEOS (TO WATCH), Pictures (TO LOOK). 
I ALSO EXPECT VIDEOS AND PICTURES IN RESPONSE NATURALLY.

NO NEED TO READ SOMETHING. SEND VIDEO. ALL I WANT IS THAT.


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## Messy1 (Aug 13, 2009)

Love this video! Dreams by Van Halen featuring the Blue Angels back in the 80's. Looks pretty precise to me, so precise all the maneuvers are in perfect synchronization with the music! 


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGcxN2D1E34_


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 13, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> I Sent VIDEOS (TO WATCH), Pictures (TO LOOK).
> I ALSO EXPECT VIDEOS AND PICTURES IN RESPONSE NATURALLY.
> 
> NO NEED TO READ SOMETHING. SEND VIDEO. ALL I WANT IS THAT.



*VIDEOS DON'T MEAN CRAP!!! AGAIN HAVE YOU EVER FLOWN AN AIRCRAFT IN AN AIRSHOW TO SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENT????*


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

> you keep posting crap about discrediting the Blue Angles



Sorry for that. I should not write the bad clothes of others (BTW, I did NOT post any UNREAL thing. The post I sent was from the official team informators of the Blue Angles). Anyway, what I did was wrong.


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

FlyBoyJ;

You changed the photo I uploaded. If you think your definition was better than SHOULD NOT WE SEE the TWO DEFINITIONS TOGETHER SO THAT THE OTHERS DECIDE WHICH ONE IS BETTER?


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 13, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> Sorry for that. I should not write the bad clothes of others (BTW, I did NOT post any UNREAL thing. The post I sent was from the official team informators of the Blue Angles). Anyway, what I did was wrong.



Well that's good....

Now with that said...

You could look at videos all day and if you don't know what you're looking at and don't understand what is going on in the formation you have no basis to judge the ability of a demo team.

Turkish Stars are a good team but over all I find them no better or worse than other teams. There are many things they can do that other teams cant - that are many things other teams can do that the Turkish Stars can't.

Until you could really understand what is happening from the ground all you're looking at is a pretty formation of aircraft!!!!


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 13, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> FlyBoyJ;
> 
> You changed the photo I uploaded. If you think your definition was better than SHOULD NOT WE SEE the TWO DEFINITIONS TOGETHER SO THAT THE OTHERS DECIDE WHICH ONE IS BETTER?


*And now that I got your attention - that photo shows 2 F-18s at 125 knots - can an F-5 do that?!?!?!?*


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

Could you please put the two photos together. BOTH ARE PERFECT!


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 13, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> Could you please put the two photos together. BOTH ARE PERFECT!



I will when you answer my question


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

Answer: 
I did NOT fly with F-16 or F-5. I have friends that experienced that! I flied with a jet, not as a pilot.

By the way: Thank you for your picture: I did NOT see that ever before.


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## Messy1 (Aug 13, 2009)

Here's a pretty good shot. Looks pretty precise.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 13, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> Answer:
> I did NOT fly with F-16 or F-5. I have friends that experienced that! I flied with a jet, not as a pilot.
> 
> By the way: Thank you for your picture: I did NOT see that ever before.



Thank you. Now here's another


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

The videos of Blue Angles that I am sent was from a cockpit video. 

Is there a 9-10 minutes video of Blue Angles or Thunderbirds that is from the ground? I googled, but not found.


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## Messy1 (Aug 13, 2009)

Is it easier or more difficult to be that precise with today's aircraft vs. 50 year ago with piston powered planes?


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

> Thank you. Now here's another


.

The photo you sent last as the definition of Mirror Images is also very nice(An F-18 are placing the plane between the back wings of the definition of mirror image  ): IT WOULD BE SUPER IF THAT PHOTOS CAN ENLARGE AS MUCH AS THE ONE I SENT.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 13, 2009)

Messy1 said:


> Is it easier or more difficult to be that precise with today's aircraft vs. 50 year ago with piston powered planes?



I've flown formation in jets (L29, 39) and GA recips. I had an easier time in the recips. Jets with long spool up times seem to be more difficult and I've been told this by other pilots.


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## pbfoot (Aug 13, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> pbfoot:
> I wondered who are Snowbirds: I examined and found that:
> Canadian Snowbirds:
> Canadair CL-41 Tutor : (never exceed speed: 763 km/h).
> ...


Whats funny is the guys who probably decided to have a team in Turkey were trained in Canada and your flying aircraft built in Canada , we gave ours to Botswana soon after you got our 104's


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 13, 2009)

pbfoot said:


> Whats funny is the guys who probably decided to have a team in Turkey were trained in Canada and your flying aircraft built in Canada , we gave ours to Botswana soon after you got our 104's





Actually they are flying ex-Dutch F-5s.


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## pbfoot (Aug 13, 2009)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Actually they are flying ex-Dutch F-5s.


Yep but they were made by Canadair almost clones of ours I'm not sure if they air to air refuellers though


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

*SUPERSONIC TEAMS * 
*TURKISH STARS (NF5): *
AirPower09 Day 1 F 53 Tiger Turkish Stars Part.2 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_gWkKxFT24_

(
AirPower09 Day 1 F 53 Tiger Turkish Stars Part.1 : 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DC_R6DianU_ 
AirPower09 Day 1 F 53 Tiger Turkish Stars Part.2 : 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_gWkKxFT24_
AirPower09 Day 1 F 53 Tiger Turkish Stars Part.3 : 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFnIOf3QIzw_ 
AirPower09 Day 1 F 53 Tiger Turkish Stars Part.4 : 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuNd0hg1f0c_ 
AirPower09 Day 1 F 53 Tiger Turkish Stars Part.5 : 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m9RFKrrVLE_ 
)

*BLUE ANGLES (with the old jets): *

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGcxN2D1E34_ 
*BLUE ANGLES (with F-18A): *
??
*NON-SUPERSONIC TEAMS*
??


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 13, 2009)

pbfoot said:


> Yep but they were made by Canadair almost clones of ours I'm not sure if they air to air refuellers though



Yep!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 13, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> 1.
> 
> F-5 has already been proved to be the BEST SUPERSONIC JET FOR AEROBATIC SHOWS. Many analysis were done before selecting that jet.



Please show these analysis. If you are going to post them as facts, then you need to provide the sources and facts.



alexyflemming said:


> There are approximately 130 reasons why NF5 jets are the best jets for airshows.



Please list those 130 reasons, as well as sources and facts. 



alexyflemming said:


> 4.
> Turkish Stars performs “mirror image” better than the others even under difficult conditions (high speed Low altitude)!



Please prove it. What are you qualifications in doing so, and where are your sources and facts that prove it.



alexyflemming said:


> ALSO: Members of Turkish Stars are elected from F-16 squadrons of Turkish Air Force (F-16 that ThunderBirds uses!). Members of Turkish Stars performed “<1 meter mirror image” with F-16s as well when they are in F-16 squadrons. So, the ABSENCE of “<1 meter mirror image” of ThunderBirds comes from NOT the potential of the jet they use, but the capability they have (more truly, they do NOT have)!



Your point being? The Thunderbirds are an actual combat squadron. If they are needed in combat they can be called upon. They train for combat situations. So I don't see what your point is. The Thunderbirds fly the same aircraft that they would fly in combat...



alexyflemming said:


> ThunderBirds uses F-16s, if their data is explained, then the capability of them is also revealed since there are F-16 squadrons in many countries. US Army does NOT want that.



Why would the US Army care about the F-16? The US Army does *NOT* use the F-16. The US Air Force uses the F-16. Two different entities...


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## Messy1 (Aug 13, 2009)

Alexy, are you looking for a mirror image such as this one that they Thunderbirds cannot do?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 13, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> I already seperated the Aerobatic Teams in two main groups:
> HORSES: Supersonic ones.
> DONKEYS: Not supersonic ones.



Sorry, but you have no clue what you are talking about. The type of maneuvers that are done at airshows (the really crazy twisty turny stuff - too put it into terms that you might understand) are not conducted at high supersonic speeds...

*By any team!*



alexyflemming said:


> I Sent VIDEOS (TO WATCH), Pictures (TO LOOK).
> I ALSO EXPECT VIDEOS AND PICTURES IN RESPONSE NATURALLY.
> 
> NO NEED TO READ SOMETHING. SEND VIDEO. ALL I WANT IS THAT.



Yet you don't understand the videos you are posting, or anything that you are posting.


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## Messy1 (Aug 13, 2009)

If I am not mistaken, the F5 was the basis for the T38 trainer in the US, which pilots trained in BEFORE they could step foot into a F-16. Explain to me how the F5 is a superior plane to the F16
F-16
General characteristics

* Crew: 1
* Length: 49 ft 5 in (14.8 m)
* Wingspan: 32 ft 8 in (9.8 m)
* Height: 16 ft (4.8 m)
* Wing area: 300 ft² (27.87 m²)
* Airfoil: NACA 64A204 root and tip
* Empty weight: 18,900 lb (8,670 kg)
* Loaded weight: 26,500 lb (12,000 kg)
* Max takeoff weight: 42,300 lb (19,200 kg)
* Powerplant: 1× F110-GE-100 afterburning turbofan
o Dry thrust: 17,155 lbf (76.3 kN)
o Thrust with afterburner: 28,600 lbf (128.9 kN)

Performance

* Maximum speed:
o At sea level: Mach 1.2 (915 mph, 1,470 km/h)
o At altitude: Mach 2+ (1,500 mph, 2,414 km/h)
* Combat radius: 340 mi (295 nm, 550 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with six 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs
* Ferry range: 2,280 NM (2,620 mi, 4,220 km) with drop tanks
* Service ceiling: 60,000+ ft (18,000+ m)
* Rate of climb: 50,000 ft/min (254 m/s)
* Wing loading: approx 40 lb/ft²[136] (430 kg/m²)
* Thrust/weight: 1.095
*F5*
General characteristics

* Crew: 1
* Length: 47 ft 4¾ in (14.45 m)
* Wingspan: 26 ft 8 in (8.13 m)
* Height: 13 ft 4½ in (4.08 m)
* Wing area: 186 ft² (17.28 m²)
* Airfoil: NACA 65A004.8 root, NACA 64A004.8 tip
* Empty weight: 9,558 lb (4,349 kg)
* Max takeoff weight: 24,664 lb (11,187 kg)
* Powerplant: 2× General Electric J85-GE-21B turbojet
o Dry thrust: 3,500 lbf (15.5 kN) each
o Thrust with afterburner: 5,000 lbf (22.2 kN) each
* *Zero-lift drag coefficient: 0.0200
* Drag area: 3.4 ft² (0.32 m²)
* Aspect ratio: 3.86
* Internal fuel: 677 US gal (2,563 L)
* External fuel: 275 US gal (1,040 L) per tank in up to 3 tanks

Performance

* Maximum speed: 917 kn (1,060 mph, 1,700 km/h, mach 1.6)
* Range: 760 nmi (870 mi, 1,405 km)
* Ferry range: 2,010 nmi (2,310 mi, 3,700 km[24])
* Service ceiling: 51,800 ft (15,800 m)
* Rate of climb: 34,400 ft/min (175 m/s)
* Lift-to-drag ratio: 10.0


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

Supersonicity matters...


> But the maneuvers are best with Supersonic jets than the others....


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## Gnomey (Aug 13, 2009)

As ALMOST NONE of the manoeuvres performed are done at supersonic speeds it DOES NOT MATTER. Therefore it is pointless and useless to bring it up in this debate.


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Sorry, but you have no clue what you are talking about. The type of maneuvers that are done at airshows (the really crazy twisty turny stuff - too put it into terms that you might understand) are not conducted at high supersonic speeds...
> 
> *By any team!*
> 
> ...


Maneuvers are FASTER with SUPERSONIC JETS. Of course, I know that during maneuvers, supersonicity is not used. 

There is GIANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUPERSONIC TEAMS AND THE OTHERS. DID NOT YOU OBSERVE THE AVERAGE SPEED OF THE AIR SHOWS RESPECTIVELY?! SLOW MOTION FEELING!


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

Gnomey said:


> As ALMOST NONE of the manoeuvres performed are done at supersonic speeds it DOES NOT MATTER. Therefore it is pointless and useless to bring it up in this debate.


Turkish Stars reachs to 1018 km/s in their maneuvers and sound speed is 1236 km/h. 

Red Arrows do NOT have supersonic jets, hence you object to this.

I sent you the videos of Red Arrows and Turkish Stars. Look at the AVERAGE SPEED of their air show. 

Red Arrows is good in tightness, but like a slow motion. Turkish Stars is BEST in tightness and the speed is very fast!


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## Gnomey (Aug 13, 2009)

I do not object to the Red Arrows not having supersonic jets so stop putting words in my mouth.

What I object to is your fascination with speed being the defining factor of what makes the best aerobatic team. Well here is something for you it isn't. Speed doesn't mean anything as has been told to you repeatedly since you started posting in this thread. Each team does something different. 

You also still have yet to produce any defining evidence of your claims other than your own made up ridiculously nationalist tables you have already posted.


----------



## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

Messy1 said:


> If I am not mistaken, the F5 was the basis for the T38 trainer in the US, which pilots trained in BEFORE they could step foot into a F-16. Explain to me how the F5 is a superior plane to the F16


Comparison is NOT between F-5 and F-16! Of Course, F-16>F-5.

But, both are SUPERSONIC.

I gave you the average speed of the air show of Turkish Stars. You did NOT. 
 
Also, tightness of Turkish Stars in Blocked Helix Climbing is the BEST.

*Also, THANKS FOR THE VIDEO LINK OF BLUE ANGLES YOU SENT. But, that video is very old (old jets of Blue Angle team). I wait for the video of Blue Angles WITH F-18A JETS!!! *


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

Gnomey said:


> What I object to is your fascination with speed being the defining factor of what makes the best aerobatic team.


NOT THE DEFINING FACTOR BUT ONE OF THE PARAMETER: As I said many times: 
if you watch the supersonic teams continuosly, then non-supersonic ones becomes you SLOW MOTION and YOU GET BORED.



Gnomey said:


> Speed doesn't mean anything.


TIGHTNESS WITH HIGH SPEED IS ATTRACTIVE THAN TIGHTNESS WITH VERY LOW SPEED !




I wrote the Video Link of Turkish Stars to prove my claims also!


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## alexyflemming (Aug 13, 2009)

Messy1 said:


> Alexy, are you looking for a mirror image such as this one that they Thunderbirds cannot do?


No, not like that. That one is easy. The above jet should be inverted and bottom is normal. Like the one I put already.


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## pbfoot (Aug 13, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> Supersonicity matters...


how many teams have you seen live 1? Some of us have seen many things you haven't , I've watched more F5's then you can imagine and those little engines just don't have the showpower that the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds have . They just don't generate the sound of real power and I'll bet the Blues or the Birds are over stage centre more then the F5
I've seen teams you've never even heard of flying 104's , 101's, F4's and F5s plus many others (I regret I never saw the EE Lightning team )
Heres a vid of the Warlocks a Voodoo team by far not the best but they gotta be amongst the noisiest

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4t2mDyo3vU_


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 13, 2009)

Alexy, let me put it to you like this. There are some of us on this forum who have been around aircraft most of our adult lives. With that said we know when someone really has a knowledge of aviation and when someone is talking out of their ass. Based on your posts you are one of the dumbest son or a b!tches to ever come on this forum. At this point your stupidity is more out of entertainment then stimulating debut.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 14, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> Maneuvers are FASTER with SUPERSONIC JETS. Of course, I know that during maneuvers, supersonicity is not used.
> 
> There is GIANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUPERSONIC TEAMS AND THE OTHERS. DID NOT YOU OBSERVE THE AVERAGE SPEED OF THE AIR SHOWS RESPECTIVELY?! SLOW MOTION FEELING!







alexyflemming said:


> Red Arrows is good in tightness, but like a slow motion. Turkish Stars is BEST in tightness and the speed is very fast!



Please show us proof that shows this.

1. You must provide a source that says what you are saying. Youtube videos do not count because they are not comparing them. It must be a source that compares them.

2. If you can not do that, you are only speaking your opinion. Discussion will be finished.



alexyflemming said:


> NOT THE DEFINING FACTOR BUT ONE OF THE PARAMETER: As I said many times:
> if you watch the supersonic teams continuosly, then non-supersonic ones becomes you SLOW MOTION and YOU GET BORED.



No I don't bored. I want to see talent, not speed. If you want talent, you go with the Blue Angels (that is my opinion though. *Do you see how that works?*).



alexyflemming said:


> I wrote the Video Link of Turkish Stars to prove my claims also!



Video links do not prove anything because they are not comparing anything. They are only showing one side.

What don't you understand about that???????? All you are doing is stating your opinion. This is getting annoying real quick...


----------



## Big Kohona (Aug 14, 2009)

What about Canada's Snowbirds??? They can out fly and out perform any of those mentioned in this poll!


----------



## alexyflemming (Aug 14, 2009)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Video links do not prove anything because they are not comparing anything. They are only showing ONE SIDE.


*I gave the video links of BOTH RED ARROWS and TURKISH STARS*, so anybody can clearly compare. 

One boy, Messy1, only sent me nice video of Blue Angels. I watched the sent video: That video was with the old jets of Blue Angels, not with their new jets (F-18A). I compared Blue Angels and Turkish Stars: Still, Turkish Stars is more qualified than the Blue Angels. Perhaps, there is an airshow of Blue Angels with their new F18A jets, but till now, nobody sent me such a video. 

The video of Blue Angels (from cockpit view) was also sent, but again that was not better than Turkish Stars also. 

Why not sending a *video of Blue Angels with
1. F-18A jets
2. Not from cockpit view*???

Also, the moderator! you are using words such as bitch, ass, etc... Why don't you become a nice example to us with the language you speak, instead of those ugly words?


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Aug 14, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> Also, the moderator! you are using words such as bitch, ass, etc... Why don't you become a nice example to us with the language you speak, instead of those ugly words?


Because you're an idiot! You have been asked time and time again to provide technical proof to back up your claims of the "F-5 being the best airshow aircraft." Dude - the F-5 is a great little aircraft - I WORKED ON THEM!!! BUT IT'S OLD. It cannot fly slow, had maneuvability limitations and has a high wing loading - DO YOU UNDERSTAND ANY OF THIS?!?!?!?!?

*You're trying to make your point on videos and how the team "LOOKS" from the ground. You are not a pilot nor have the ability to truly judge how each team performs and it shows in your post. At this point you could hold the opinion that the Turkish Stars are the best flight demonstration team in the world, but you have NOTHING to back up your OPINION!!!!*


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## Messy1 (Aug 14, 2009)

Alexy, I sent you that video as a joke, I was trying to make light of the situation. And I am far from being a boy.


----------



## beaupower32 (Aug 14, 2009)

My vote is for the Thunderchickens, ERR, I mean Thunderbirds. I worked the F-16 for 6 years, and what a great plane. The thunderbirds got the new F-16 Block 52 with the Pratt Whitney F-100-229 for this years airshow. 

Thunderbird Jumbotron Video at GML | www.asb.tv


alexyflemming: Im going to let you in on something here. Better start bringing some proof to the table. That little chart you had was nice, but didnt prove anything really. Where are the facts. Do you have any documents to show us. Even links? Most of the people in here have been around Aircraft for a very long time, and im sure a lot longer than you ( and even me). Better not try and Bullsh!t them, cause they will catch it and embarrass you. 



Oh, and for Sh!ts and giggles, here is a video from the cockpit of a F4U keeping in formation with a Mustang. Enjoy!
Corsair Mustang Acro | www.asb.tv


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## Messy1 (Aug 14, 2009)

I am sure you can find, or have found some videos online of the Blue Angels or the Thunderbirds that would meet your satisfaction.


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## BikerBabe (Aug 14, 2009)

The Red Arrows gets my vote.


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## alexyflemming (Aug 14, 2009)

FLYBOYJ said:


> idiot, ass, bitch


 A moderator should NOT use these words, I think.



beaupower32 said:


> Do you have any documents to show us. Even links?



MAXIMUM NUMBER OF SUPERSONIC JETS IN AN AEROBATIC TEAM (8 supersonic jets)






*In order to see the maximum number of supersonic jets in an aerobatic team, you must pass this side of atlantic unfortunately!*










Definition of mirror image





AirPower09 Day 1 F 53 Tiger Turkish Stars Part.2 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_gWkKxFT24_ 
(BEST AEROBATIC SHOW OF THE WORLD BY THE BEST AEROBATIC TEAM OF THE WORLD)


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 14, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> (BEST AEROBATIC SHOW OF THE WORLD BY THE BEST AEROBATIC TEAM OF THE WORLD)



*Your opinion - you don't have the intellignece to back up any of your claims.*


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## Messy1 (Aug 14, 2009)

I am not saying the pictures are not impressive Alexxy, but your 3rd photo in the above post of the mirror image, from another angle may not look as good or as tight of a formation as in the picture. Pictures are all about being in the right position at the right time to get the optimal shot. Photos of mirror images prove nothing. The photographers are going to take dozens of photos, and only a few will turn out to be keepers.


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## beaupower32 (Aug 14, 2009)

Hmmm, a better looking Mirror Image


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## Messy1 (Aug 14, 2009)

Look damn good to me Beau!


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## alexyflemming (Aug 14, 2009)

beaupower32 said:


> Hmmm, a better looking Mirror Image



The distance between cockpit windows of Turkish Stars is less than that of Thunderbirds, that is clear in the image. 

By the way, those who oppose that Turkish Stars is the Best Aerobatic Team of the World, 
*DID YOU SEE MORE THAN 6 SUPERSONIC JETS IN AN AEROBATIC TEAM IN YOUR LIFE TILL NOW?*
(AND THEREFORE MORE RICH PATTERNS, ETC..)
*Rank (SuperSonic Aerobatic Teams):*
1. Turkish Stars
2. Thunderbirds
3. Blue Angles
4. Russian Knights

*Rank (Non-SuperSonic Aerobatic Teams):*
1. Red Arrows (Definitely!)
2. Frecce Of Italians.


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## beaupower32 (Aug 14, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> DID YOU SEE MORE THAN 6 SUPERSONIC JETS IN AN AEROBATIC TEAM IN YOUR LIFE TILL NOW



Boy, you sure are big on this supersonic/subsonic jet thing huh. And to me, the more planes you start adding, the worse the formation starts to look. It just lookes cluttered and isnt as smooth as what it is with either 4 or 6 ship demostrations. 


And by far, they can find something better than a F-5 to fly with IMHO.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 14, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> The distance between cockpit windows of Turkish Stars is less than that of Thunderbirds, that is clear in the image.



SO WHAT!

Can the Turkish Stars do this?







*They are flying at 125 KNOTS* - So Answer the question - *CAN THE TURKISH STARS DO THIS?*

I also want you to show the "study" you spoke about on your first moronic post about the F-5 being the best aircraft for airshows.


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## Messy1 (Aug 14, 2009)

I'd say it's a lost cause boys! Aleexy, I see your tenure here to be a short one. Facts, facts, facts, that is what you need, unless you make it clear you are expressing your opinion! Members here east, sleep, and live FACTS.


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## alexyflemming (Aug 14, 2009)

beaupower32 said:


> You sure are big on this supersonic/subsonic jet thing huh.


Max speed of the planes of Red Arrows: 1037 km/h.
Average Speed of Maneuvers of Turkish Stars: 834 km/h. (max. = 1018 km/h) (plane's capacity: 1700 km/h)
AVERAGE speed of an air show really matters!!!!


beaupower32 said:


> And by far, they can find something better than a F-5 to fly.


F-5 is the best in Aerobatic World!


beaupower32 said:


> And to me, the more planes you start adding, the worse the formation starts to look.


Disproof by Turkish Stars (with 8 supersonic jets):
AirPower09 Day 1 F 53 Tiger Turkish Stars Part.2 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_gWkKxFT24_ 
(BEST AEROBATIC SHOW OF THE WORLD BY THE BEST AEROBATIC TEAM OF THE WORLD)



FLYBOYJ said:


> Can the Turkish Stars do this?


Obiously NO: Look at the noses of the Thunderbirds! They are not in the same vertical axis clearly. That photo is very clear that there is NO mirror image: Look at the noses of Thunderbirds. They are NOT TOP-to-BOTTOM. They are SIDE-to-SIDE!

When Turkish Stars do Mirror Image, they do it in the same Vertical Axis!


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## alexyflemming (Aug 14, 2009)

Messy1 said:


> Members here east, sleep, and live FACTS.



*Beaupower’s video:*

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_gWkKxFT24_ 
(BEST AEROBATIC SHOW OF THE WORLD BY THE BEST AEROBATIC TEAM OF THE WORLD)
*%100 Actual Live Video - %0 Computer Simulation* etc.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 14, 2009)

OK I'm done...


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## alexyflemming (Aug 14, 2009)

beaupower32 said:


> And to me, the more planes you start adding, the worse the formation starts to look. It just lookes cluttered and isnt as smooth as what it is with either 4 or 6 ship demostrations.


Disproof: Look at 3.40-4.00 range of minutes and 5.40-6.00 range of minutes in the following video (Only 40 seconds TO Disprove you idea!)TIGHTHESTAND SPEEDEST TURNS!: 
AirPower09 Day 1 F 53 Tiger Turkish Stars Part.2 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_gWkKxFT24_ 
(BEST AEROBATIC SHOW OF THE WORLD BY THE BEST AEROBATIC TEAM OF THE WORLD)


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 14, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> Obiously NO: Look at the noses of the Thunderbirds! They are not in the same vertical axis clearly. That photo is very clear that there is NO mirror image: Look at the noses of Thunderbirds. They are NOT TOP-to-BOTTOM. They are SIDE-to-SIDE!



Once again your stupidity is shown to be astounding! *Do you even realize that this has NOTHING to do with your "mirror image" which by the way can be manipulated by camera angle?!?!?!*

*
OK - I'm tired of your stupidity. Please back up the technical aspects of your claims in your first post or I'm terminating your existence on this site.*


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## alexyflemming (Aug 14, 2009)

FLYBOYJ said:


> OK I'm done...


Normal Thunderbird is on the top, inverted Thunderbird is on the bottom. LOOK: 
Normal's nose is bottom than the inverted plane who is at the bottom: ABSOLUTE MIRROR IMAGE DEFICIENCY!

When you look at the Mirror Images of Turkish Stars, you will get very fascinated. Really!


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## pbfoot (Aug 14, 2009)

Like to see them but but they don't perform enough they have a very easy schedule with little travel the Snowbirds , Angels and T birds and others perform more in a week then the Stars do in a year and they dont do much travelling . Is this a maintainence problem? It looks with the exception of the Netherlands they stay at home. I'll speak about the subsonic Snowbirds who perform in every region of North America from the arctic circle to Mexico the Turkish Stars cannot come close to that show schedule


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 14, 2009)

Alexy - go on another forum, you're just too stupid to stay here.


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## Dark Matter (Aug 14, 2009)

alexyflemming said:


> Normal Thunderbird is on the top, inverted Thunderbird is on the bottom. LOOK:
> Normal's nose is bottom than the inverted plane who is at the bottom: ABSOLUTE MIRROR IMAGE DEFICIENCY!
> 
> When you look at the Mirror Images of Turkish Stars, you will get very fascinated. Really!



That picture that FLYBOYJ posted is real, you can tell by the numbers on the tail markings.


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## Messy1 (Aug 14, 2009)

Bye, bye Genius!


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## Catch22 (Aug 14, 2009)

Hehe, I've been watching this and seeing how long it would last.

See you later!


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## Nagier (Aug 14, 2009)

The American Aerobatic Team will pass to F-35A (5-generation jet), then I think that team will be Number 1 in the world clearly! Till then, we will discuss in vain.

Looked at the forum, many people put nice videos to the forum, I think. By the way, why not set the parameters first, then agree on which one is the best?


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 14, 2009)

Nagier said:


> By the way, why not set the parameters first, then agree on which one is the best?



No, why not know what the hell you're talking about before coming on this forum. Now go away!


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## Dark Matter (Aug 14, 2009)

thats kinda harsh, FLYBOYJ....I'm just saying.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 14, 2009)

Dark Matter said:


> thats kinda harsh, FLYBOYJ....I'm just saying.



Ya know what, you're done too. After your post about getting banned from another site I'd think you would lean. Now go sit in a corner with a dunce cap for a while and come back when you have some brains.


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## beaupower32 (Aug 14, 2009)

See ya!


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## Norman Tribes (Aug 14, 2009)

DID YOU SEE MORE THAN 6 IDIOTS DUMB AS ME?


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## imalko (Aug 14, 2009)

Common, this is really getting annoying...


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## Njaco (Aug 14, 2009)

Norman or Alexcy or whoever he calls himself, just doesn't get it.


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## Bucksnort101 (Aug 14, 2009)

Njaco said:


> Norman or Alexcy or whoever he calls himself, just doesn't get it.



Egomaniacs never do. Some people just have nothing better going on in thier lives that to be a pain in the a$$ to others. 
I still vote for those old slow, subsonic Stearmans of John Mohr and the old Red Baron Squadron


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## Messy1 (Aug 14, 2009)

Wow, what a moron!


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## Gnomey (Aug 14, 2009)

Really not surprised there, almost did it myself last night when he started putting words in my mouth that I didn't even mention (me being jealous because the Red Arrows didn't have supersonic jets - I haven't mentioned the Red Arrows in this thread for years...).

Just coming back repeatedly proves his intelligence, there was absolutely nothing of substance to back up his claims. He didn't even understand that a good camera angle can make *any* aerobatic team look good and like they are in close formation.


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## Njaco (Aug 14, 2009)

I would like to thank him for letting me get my second kill! 

My fav acrobatic was the old guy in the yellow Piper. Followed by the Blue Angels. They performed very sharply the few times I've seen them.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 14, 2009)

> Blue Angels pilots’ undisciplined behaviours continues in their shows as well (Hear the sounds of the pilots).
> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM_ZB7jqxz8_




He was too stupid to know that there was a passenger flying in a 2 seat F/A-18 making all the comments while holding a camera. This guy is one of the dumbest people to ever come on this site.

I allowed him ample time to try to show some streak of intelligence but in the end he was too stupid to keep around here.


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## Messy1 (Aug 15, 2009)

Good riddance!


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## Flyboy2 (Aug 15, 2009)

Haha that was fun to read...

But I wanted to say, yes Messy1 it is very cool to see the Thunderbirds perform, you can see the smoke trails from the whole valley, it is really cool, but alot of time I end up being to only guy on the cross country team looking at them haha


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## evangilder (Aug 16, 2009)

Two words...*ZOOM COMPRESSION*.

I am a professional aviation photographer and I can tell you that there is not 1 meter between the cockpit. LOOK AT THE TAILS, they are clearly one behind the other, not on top of each other.

How about formation takeoff










Mirror images can be manipulated with angles. Here is one that is probably just as tight as yours:





Close? 





And yes, other teams can perform in tight manuevers as well:





Now for professionalism, when an aircraft has a problem, like a bird strike, you have to be able to continue performing as normal. Because of a problem at one show, the Thunderbirds continued in the formation we photographers dubbed "The flying Dorito".


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 16, 2009)

Great posts there Eric. Last time I saw the Thunderbirds was back in 1988 at Shaw AFB in South Carolina. It is about time I see them again. Last time I saw the Blue Angels was back in 2001 in Norfolk, VA. Both were amazing shows!


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## Flyboy2 (Aug 16, 2009)

Hey evanglider, are some of those shots taken at Nellis?


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## evangilder (Aug 16, 2009)

Nope, I haven't gotten out to Aviation Nation yet. These were at Point Mugu and Edwards.


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## beaupower32 (Aug 16, 2009)

evangilder said:


> Nope, I haven't gotten out to Aviation Nation yet. These were at Point Mugu and Edwards.



When were you out at Edwards?


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## Butters (Aug 16, 2009)

This was a long time ago, and it's only a lowly four subsonic airplanes, but it still seems like a pretty tight formation TO to me..

Golden Hawks Video - CKA

Not too shabby in my books.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Aug 16, 2009)

Nice find Butters.
Not too shabby for 1971.


Wheels


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## Flyboy2 (Aug 17, 2009)

evangilder said:


> Nope, I haven't gotten out to Aviation Nation yet. These were at Point Mugu and Edwards.



Thats too bad, you should come out sometime, its usually a great show


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## evangilder (Aug 17, 2009)

The last Edwards show was in 2006. I will be out there again for the show in October. I do plan on getting to Aviation Nation one of these days.


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## beaupower32 (Aug 17, 2009)

The show out in 2006 was the last weekend I was stationed there before I PCS to Charleston. I sure do miss Edwards.


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## Marcel (Aug 17, 2009)

Strange pic:





The perspective surely looks strange to me. That's probably what the shadows do


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## evangilder (Aug 17, 2009)

No shadows there, just a close in cross. That's not easy to catch, either.


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## Marcel (Aug 17, 2009)

Yep, it is a brilliant pic!


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## Non_exitus (Aug 17, 2009)

FLYBOYJ said:


> He was too stupid to know that there was a passenger flying in a 2 seat F/A-18 making all the comments while holding a camera. This guy is one of the dumbest people to ever come on this site.


What is the business of an undisciplined man in 2 seat F/A-18!!

*TURKISH STARS (TURKEY) = 8 SUPERSONIC JETS
BLUE ANGELS (AMERICA) = 6 SUPERSONIC JETS
THUNDERBIRDS (AMERICA) = 6 SUPERSONIC JETS*

*DELTA *of Turkish Stars is richer than Delta of Blue Angels ThunderBirds (Since 8 jets!)
*VICTOR *of Turkish Stars is richer than Victor of Blue Angels ThunderBirds (Since 8 jets!)
*DIAMOND *of Turkish Stars is richer than Diamond of Blue Angels ThunderBirds (Since 8 jets!)

*MATRIX and HELIXIA can ONLY be performed by Turkish Stars since these actions requires at least 7 jets!*

*I do NOT say that Blue Angels and ThunderBirds are bad. They are good.
I say that Turkish Stars is BETTER THAN Blue Angels and ThunderBirds.*

There is an obvious CLASS DIFFERENCE between Turkish Stars and (Blue Angels and ThunderBirds):
(Nobody put in this forum that is equivalent to the following, (forget better)):
AirPower09 Day 1 F 53 Tiger Turkish Stars Part.2 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_gWkKxFT24_ 
(BEST AEROBATIC SHOW OF THE WORLD BY THE BEST AEROBATIC TEAM OF THE WORLD)

Watched by 129,000 people in the world: 
(Turkish Stars has the most number of spectators in the world!)

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBZ9r7Un-Yc_


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## Gnomey (Aug 17, 2009)

Well goodbye again idiot. We have already told you about perspective and how it affects how close everybody looks. Yet you can't seem to comprehend any of it and keep shouting your so called patriotic nonsensical bullshit. Go burn in cyperspace.

One more point. The Red Arrows may not have supersonic aircraft but there are *9* of them. So the Turkish Stars aren't the only ones that can perform manoeuvres that require more than 7 aircraft...


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 17, 2009)

Non_exitus said:


> What is the business of an undisciplined man in 2 seat F/A-18!!



*It's a reporter he's taking for a ride you moron!!!! Our teams will do that to show the public and the tax payers how their dollars are spent. Again your stupidity is astounding! If you weren't so f#*king stupid you'd find that this passenger is not engaged in any radio communication but because you have the brain capacity of a peanut you can't understand this!!!!*


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## pbfoot (Aug 17, 2009)

Turkish AF story while in the Goose we had a Turk 130 transit through and initial contact with arrival he declared an emergency , his flight strip indicated he was carrying dangerous cargo so we asked the pilot for location and type of cargo (explosives or other Flammables) so we could relay to emergency crews . He wouldn't tell us and got quite upset that we would ask


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 17, 2009)

Will this guy just go away???

Seriously dude, you have way too much time on your hands. Do you enjoy just going around and trolling forums. You need some help!


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## Messy1 (Aug 17, 2009)

Good lord man. Give it up. You have no idea what you are talking about. Look at how many shows are on the Blue Angel and Thunderbirds websites. Look at how many more dates the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds fly per year than the Turkish Stars? You are crazy if you think the Stars are seen by more people than the Blue Angels and T-Birds. The numbers just do not add up. 

THE TURKISH STARS ONLY HAVE 5 DATES ALL YEAR! The Blue Angels and Thunderbirds fly more in more in one month that your Stars DO ALL YEAR! Explain to me how they have more people just because some commentator on a video you watched voiced a opinion, but by now we should all know you care not for facts, as your opinion is gospel.

23-24 May Bulgaria/Plovdiv Bulgarian International Aviation Festival
19-20 June Holland/Volkel Royal Netherlands Air Force Show-2009
26-27 June Austria/Zeltweg Airpower-09
20 July North Cyprus/Girne KKTC Peace And Freedeom Day
14-18 October Ölüdeniz/Fethiye Ölüdeniz Air Games Festival
15 November North Cyprus/Girne KKTC National Day

Off of the Thunderbirds site. The Thunderbirds are scheduled to perform MORE THAN 73 shows this year.
The Blue Angels have just as many, if not more.


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## Messy1 (Aug 17, 2009)

Does it count as 2 kills even though it's the same guy with two different screen names?


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Aug 17, 2009)

I guess so. In WWII, some pilots got shot down many times.


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## Gnomey (Aug 17, 2009)

Messy1 said:


> Does it count as 2 kills even though it's the same guy with two different screen names?



Yes, as far as I know.



Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> I guess so. In WWII, some pilots got shot down many times.



Very true, it is similar here.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Aug 17, 2009)

I wonder what the statistical possibility was of becoming an ace by shooting down the same individual 5 times ?


Wheels


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## Waynos (Aug 17, 2009)

I am still amused that he does not even realise, even after being told far more times than is usually required by the average brain cell, that nobody does supersonic displays, therefore the speed of the aircraft is irrelevant. All that 'supersonic jets' bullshit is even more boring than the rest of his crap.


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## Hudson MkIII (Aug 18, 2009)

I watched a fly on the wall doco on the Red Arrows the other day, it was very entertaining. They practice in the Med because the air conditions are better there. 
They showed parts of routines from the BA's and TB's who were flying at the same air show. 
What was really interesting is that they showed the other teams pilots reactions while watching the routines of the Red Arrows and vice versa - they all seemed to respect each others skills.


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## telera (Aug 18, 2009)

Gnomey said:


> The Red Arrows may not have supersonic aircraft but there are *9* of them. So the Turkish Stars aren't the only ones that can perform manoeuvres that require more than 7 aircraft...


 I did NOT say Turkish Stars are the ONLY ones that can perform manoeuvres that require more than 7 aircrafts.
Red Arrows is also very nice in tightness. I watched their video. But, Turkish Stars are far better than Red Arrows.
One more thing: *If you put 9 non-supersonic asses next to each other, nobody cares them*. Red Arrows' category and Turkish Stars' category are completely different!



Messy1 said:


> You are crazy if you think the Stars are seen by more people than the Blue Angels and T-Birds. Explain to me how they have more people just because some commentator on a video you watched voiced a opinion


Turkish Stars has the WORLD RECORD of MAX Spectators AT THE SAME TIME (1 SHOW): 2001 August Azerbaijan: More than 1 Million watchers! On Youtube, type Turkish Stars Azerbaijan: After 4.20 minutes of the video, you will see Turkish Stars' Azerbaijan Demonstration and ">1 Million spectators" in the area!



Waynos said:


> Nobody does supersonic displays, therefore the speed of the aircraft is irrelevant.


 Brainless creature! Of course, No aerobatic team does supersonic displays,* THERE IS GIANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE AVERAGE SPEED OF AIRSHOWS OF SUPERSONIC ONES AND NON-SUPERSONIC ONES!* WATCH RED ARROWS AND TURKISH STARS CONSECUTIVELY TO SEE THE DIFFERENCE: ONE OF THEM IS DONKEY, THE OTHER IS HORSE: RED ARROWS ARE SLOW MOTION COMPARED TO TURKISH STARS. MORON!


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## Marcel (Aug 18, 2009)

Is there no possibility to block an IP? Maybe we should just ignore him?

BTW: there is no "best" aerobatic team. They're all good, at least better than I am  so this whole discussion is pointless.


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## Gnomey (Aug 18, 2009)

telera said:


> I did NOT say Turkish Stars are the ONLY ones that can perform manoeuvres that require more than 7 aircrafts.
> Red Arrows is also very nice in tightness. I watched their video. But, Turkish Stars are far better than Red Arrows.
> One more thing: *If you put 9 non-supersonic asses next to each other, nobody cares them*. Red Arrows' category and Turkish Stars' category are completely different!



No one is reading anything you have written anymore because it is so full of sh*t...



telera said:


> Turkish Stars has the WORLD RECORD of MAX Spectators AT THE SAME TIME (1 SHOW): 2001 August Azerbaijan: More than 1 Million watchers! On Youtube, type Turkish Stars Azerbaijan: After 4.20 minutes of the video, you will see Turkish Stars' Azerbaijan Demonstration and ">1 Million spectators" in the area!



Again it means sh*t, wow 1 show with that many people. The rest of the time they perform 3/4 shows a year in front of normal crowds which the other teams do upwards of 20 shows a year.



telera said:


> Brainless creature! Of course, No aerobatic team does supersonic displays,* THERE IS GIANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE AVERAGE SPEED OF AIRSHOWS OF SUPERSONIC ONES AND NON-SUPERSONIC ONES!* WATCH RED ARROWS AND TURKISH STARS CONSECUTIVELY TO SEE THE DIFFERENCE: ONE OF THEM IS DONKEY, THE OTHER IS HORSE: RED ARROWS ARE SLOW MOTION COMPARED TO TURKISH STARS. MORON!



Your the brainless one dipshit, now f*ck off. Stop insulting members, you are a complete moron, a tool and a twat.


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