# The urban legend of the "He 277" being a "cover designation". It REALLY existed!



## The PIPE (Jan 6, 2010)

Dear Fellow WW II Aircraft Fans:

The PIPE Here...and one of the very best books I've ever obtained for my personal library of historic aviation books is the English language edition of a book first published in 1989, and authored by Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel, on the most "enigmatic" aircraft of the Luftwaffe, the He 177 ''Greif'', whic I've variously known as "Stuck-Ugly" (it was NOT a "handsome" aircraft, by any stretch of the imagination!), and more recently as "The Gruesome Griffin", from its history of engine fires and many, many other failings that led it to be considered the biggest "failure" of the Third Reich's entire aviation industry, esopecially of those Luftwaffe aircraft that actually saw some serious front line action.

It's IN that book, one of the most recently authored and RESEARCHED volumes on an otherwise enigmatic aircraft, that the whole story of one (of three) of the 'individually" four-engined developments of the 177A, the "He 277" design, as having the "cover designation" of "He 177B", was totally blown apart by research, and supported by Heinkel factory documents, as evidence as nothing more than what is called today, an "urban legend".

It's in the pages of that book that the "He 177B" is actually proven to be a REAL development of the A-series Griffin, backed up by Heinkel factory documents and research, and by the reality that of the three project aircraft that Heinkel did work on later in WW II that were meant to be "four-individually-engined" developments of the "coupled-engine" 177A series...the He 177B, the "He 277" and the He 274...

...FOUR prototypes of the He 177B (He 177 V101 to V104) WERE built at Heinkel's southerly production facility near Vienna, with three of them flying; two prototypes of the He 274 were started before the war's end, and complted and flown in France after the war, but none...NONE...of the parts that were made for the "He 277" design were EVER brought together into a complete aircraft at any time, before OR after the war.

In a thread started by "rousseau" of our forum, at http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/engines/engine-quastion-about-he-177-a-11699.html , in wondering why the Gruesome Griffin was not powered by twin-tandem layout DB 601 or 605 inverted V12s at thje start, where a French bomber or two, and a number of Dornier flying boat designs, had used tandem multi-engine configurations with quite a degree of success, wanted to know a bit more about why the clumsy DB 606 610 "poewr system" powerplants had to be used...

...and it was for a number of reasons (streamlining, less drag, and a demented  "Big Stuka" mentality by some in the RLM, among others) that had cursed the Griffin-A series to have what Reichsmarschall Goering would deride, by late summer of 1943, as "those monstrosities of welded-together engines" as first related in the Griehl/Dressel volume, when Goering described what he thought of the DB 606 and 610.

I was the one who brought up, in Rousseau's thread, the "welded-together engine" monicker that Goering had placed on the DB 606 610 in his thread, and the facts of the He 177B being the "furthest-along in development" solution to giving the Luftwaffe a real four engined, Allied style "heavy", as told in the Griehl/Dressel book. That effort was getting Rousseau's original thread a bit sidetracked, so I thought it would be best to revisit that whole issue of the He 277 NEVER having actually been completed, at ANY time, versus the four He 177B prorotypes actually being built, with three of them flying, in a thread of its own.

When I've got some more time later in this thread, I'll quote some of the things I spotted in that book that bear out what sure LOOKS like the whole "coomplete He 277s was/were flying before the end of the war" story to BE nothing more than an urban legend...and where so many things seem to be different in the Griehl/Dressel book, from almost everything that's been printed before about HOW the development of four-individually-engined improvements of the Gruesome Griffin occurred, seem to bear out that the He 277 was not only not even built as a complete aircraft at any time, but that the He 277 design was also considered to be a competitor, right alongside the Me 264, Fw 300, Ta 400 and Ju 488, all as possible piston-engined candidates for the "Amerika Bomber" project, as Chapter 5 of the Griehl-Dressel book relates.

I'll be letting them know over at rousseau's thread about this NEW one...

Thank you and Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE!


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## Colin1 (Jan 6, 2010)

Can't you just go Edit/Go Advanced?


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## The PIPE (Jan 6, 2010)

Dear Colin1:

The PIPE here...THANKS for the forum editing tip, it's just that's getting a bit late for dinner in New England "right now", so I've got to hit the kitchen for the meal...!

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE...!


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## davebender (Jan 6, 2010)

What about the Ju-89 / Ju-90 / Ju-290? It appears to me that 4 engine heavy bomber was more or less ready by 1939. However the Ju-290 program was was apparently given only scraps for resources. Consequently I don't think they produced more then 100 Ju-290s in all and that includes aircraft used for recon and long range transports.

Not that I think the Third Reich could afford a heavy bomber program. But the option was there. 8)


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## GrauGeist (Jan 6, 2010)

Don't forget the Me264, which was a very capable 4 engined heavy bomber.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 7, 2010)

For the love of God, stop calling urself "The Pipe", its retarded....

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## beaupower32 (Jan 7, 2010)

lesofprimus said:


> For the love of God, stop calling urself "The Pipe", its retarded....




LOL, I was thinking the same thing, quite annoying....


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## Njaco (Jan 8, 2010)

Ok, first question:

My understanding is that, for whatever reason, Heinkel, in order to keep the four engine concept secret, designated the new airframe the "He-177B". After May 1943 when Hitler gave his blessing, it was officially known as the "He-277". Uwe Feist refrences mention of this designation in several correspondances that Heinkel made.

Does the book you have cover this?


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## comiso90 (Jan 8, 2010)

lesofprimus said:


> For the love of God, stop calling urself "The Pipe", its retarded....



LOL. sounds like a Saturday Night Live skit.. 




next he'll be describing himself in 3rd person ....


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## beaupower32 (Jan 8, 2010)

comiso90 said:


> next he'll be describing himself in 3rd person ....




Shhh, dont give him any idea's.


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## Njaco (Jan 8, 2010)

some pics of what we're talking about......


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 8, 2010)




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## Waynos (Jan 9, 2010)

Can I ask a different question.

How widely was it thought that the He 277 did not exist and was just a cover designation? This is something I was completely unaware of. However the OP seems to be quite excited to be making this announcement.??


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## riacrato (Jan 9, 2010)

I was thinking the same


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## Lucky13 (Jan 9, 2010)

He think that the 177 would have been a better machine with four seperate engines, is he right? 




The 13


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## Njaco (Jan 9, 2010)

I think it definately was needed. Whether it was the 277, 274 or any other is up to debate. But time to operations probably would have been quicker without playing with those coupled engines.


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## Lucky13 (Jan 9, 2010)

Good waste of time trying to get those four coupled engines working together....would have been some force to reckon with, those Heinkel 277's and Messerschmitt 264's!


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## Juha (Jan 11, 2010)

Now on Me 264
its problems were at first that Messerschmitt didn't have design or production capacity for it, that's why progress was so slow, RLM gave the job once to Dornier because of that, but Dornier ignored it, it neither had any surplus design capacity, so RLM sent the project back to Messer. And when the proto V-1 flew they found out that the wing was after all too small to so heavy a/c. That is at least Manfred Griehl's version how things went. One must remember that at least also British had problems with design capacity during the WWII.

On He 177 coupled engines,both Milch and Heinkel claimed in Aug 43 that HE had asked/offered He 177 with 4 separate engines years ago.

Juha


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## davebender (Jan 11, 2010)

WWII Germany definately needed a lot of things, most of which were more important then a heavy bomber. For instance it would be nice to have enough aviation gasoline for existing aircraft.


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## comiso90 (Jan 11, 2010)

If (and its a BIG if) the Germans produced a 4 engine bomber in any meaningful numbers, i wonder which counter measures the allies would develop:

more 20mm cannons in interceptors?
Accelerate development of the meteor?

Maybe a B-29 interceptor version! Bristling with machine guns and cannon. 

The Germans get a lot justifiable kudos for their innovative aircraft design but you also have to fold the context and doctrine into the situation. Many of their brilliant innovations were more defensive in nature. i wonder what the allies would have come up with if they were forced to build some desperation weapons.

.


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## Njaco (Jan 18, 2010)

some more pics I found at Luftarchiv......


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## Njaco (Jan 23, 2010)

I think somebody must have called a plumber.


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## machine shop tom (Jan 23, 2010)

Hi, the tom here.

I was aware of of this 25 years ago.

the tom.

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## Crimea_River (Jan 24, 2010)

Njaco said:


> I think somebody must have called a plumber.



Or he drank some Draino.


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## B-17engineer (Jan 24, 2010)

what happened in the second Chris? The fuselage took off without the wings? Hehehe


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## riacrato (Jan 25, 2010)

machine shop tom said:


> Hi, the tom here.
> 
> I was aware of of this 25 years ago.
> 
> the tom.


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## Propellorhead (May 5, 2010)

The PIPE said:


> It's IN that book, one of the most recently authored and RESEARCHED volumes on an otherwise enigmatic aircraft, that the whole story of one (of three) of the 'individually" four-engined developments of the 177A, the "He 277" design, as having the "cover designation" of "He 177B", was totally blown apart by research, and supported by Heinkel factory documents, as evidence as nothing more than what is called today, an "urban legend"....
> 
> That effort was getting Rousseau's original thread a bit sidetracked, so I thought it would be best to revisit that whole issue of the He 277 NEVER having actually been completed, at ANY time, versus the four He 177B prorotypes actually being built, with three of them flying, in a thread of its own.



There seems to be reasonable grounds to suggest at least 26 individual He-277 aircraft were built and flown from December 1943 when the first He-277 took flight and 2 July 1944 when all bomber production was stopped. Here are some of the registrations and constructor numbers which I have identified:

GA+QQ Heinkel He277 V9
GA+QR Heinkel He277 V10
GA+QM Heinkel He277 V26
GA+QX Heinkel He277 V18
GA+QQ Heinkel He277 V9 


Pehaps one should also read the book "Cheb Wings" by James W. Hill and L. Matějíček ?
There are several photos of He-177 aircraft destroyed on the ground at Cheb in Czechoslovakia 1945. 

http://www.fronta.cz/foto/trosky-he-177-1

Google Translate


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## A4K (May 5, 2010)

Waynos said:


> Can I ask a different question.
> 
> How widely was it thought that the He 277 did not exist and was just a cover designation? This is something I was completely unaware of. However the OP seems to be quite excited to be making this announcement.??



My thoughts exactly..was never a secret in any of the books I've read.


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## Propellorhead (May 5, 2010)

Adding to the list of identified He-277 Stamkennzeichen are as follows:

1. NN+QQ W.Nr.535550
2. GA+QQ former He177 A-08 W.Nr.23
3. NE+OD ( pictured in this thread )
4. GA+QQ Heinkel He277 V9
5. GA+QR Heinkel He277 V10
6. GA+QM Heinkel He277 V26
7. GA+QX Heinkel He277 V18

(correction 7 airframes)

Prototypes seem to have the factory codes commencing with "N"


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## Njaco (May 5, 2010)

Thanks Propellor!


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## zoomar (May 5, 2010)

My own opinion is that the history of many Heinkel aircraft is so clouded by competing opinions, personal antagonism between Heinkel and the RLM, and deliberate propaganda (outright lying) by Heinkel's contemporary supporters and opponents that the absolute truth behind the He-177B/He 277 conundrum will never be known. I suspect there is a degree of truth in both main stories about the origin and nature of the "He-277".

I find the pictures of the burnt out He177B's/He277s interesting in that they show four bladed propellors, not the three bladed units sported by the supposed He 177B/He277 v1 prototype. This at least proves other prototypes were in fact built, but that they had not switched to the twin endplate tail assembly that was supposedly planned for the He-277.

Regarding the broader question of German heavy bombers, the Me-264 would never have been ready for operational use by 1945, and the Ju-290 was not be a true heavy bomber in the B-17/Lancaster mold. Also, given the pressing need for interceptors in the west and ground attack planes in the east, I doubt the German aircraft industry would have been able to produce more than token numbers of He-177Bs or any other long-range heavy bomber stemming from the "Bomber A" specifications. These planes would have been excellent substitutes for the basically unsuitable Fw200 in the maritime recon and attack role, and might have some utility in mounting a strategic campaign against Soviet factories in the Ural area, but in the absence of a long-range escort fighter, they would have suffered serious losses and would not have substantially altered the outcome of the war in either the west or the east.

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## Njaco (May 5, 2010)

> I suspect there is a degree of truth in both main stories about the origin and nature of the "He-277".



and that right there is probably the best answer of it all.

My feeling is that if its a coupled 4 engine its a 177 - if 4 seperate engines, a 277. Along the lines of the Ju 88, Ju 188, Ju 288, etc..... There were significant changes within the basic airframe that modified the look and performance of the machine. Now if Heinkel had to play around secretly with the name at the beginning, so be it. There eventually was a 277 made.

But the bigger question - why all the fuss? You say toemato, I say twomato.........


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## zoomar (May 6, 2010)

I would be interested in knowing if any of the supposedly definitive "He-277B" production models with the twin enplates and improved defensive armament were made. Green, in his Warplanes of the 3rd Reich, states that a handful of these were completed after formal approval of the He-177B/He-277 program was issued but apparently not flown and scrapped shortly thereafter. This is, however, an old book and a lot of newer research has been done. Having now seen the pictures of the demolished He-277s/He-177Bs in LuftArchiv and that Czech site, I now wonder if those are the aircraft Green referred to - basically nothing more than re-engined He-177s


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## Propellorhead (May 8, 2010)

I have learned the second He-277 prototype was converted from the eighth He 177 A-0 production prototype aircraft designated V102. This aircraft also had the split H tail of the He-274. The eighth He-177 A-0, I just discovered was GA+QQ Heinkel He177 A-08 W.Nr.23 

W.Nr.23 was being converted to He-177 A-05 v9 stkz DL+AT (source "B0163" Griehl Dressel, cited Airlife, 1998 ) so this was the H tail prototype of the He-277. 

First prototype therefopre was NN+QQ W.Nr.535550. Third prototype was NE+OD

I think I should withdraw from suggesting that the He-277 V26 suggests as many as 26 were built since there's no facts to corroborate this. It does suggest however that possibly 26 were in the proceess of being re-manufactured from older He-177 aircraft. There are however persistent suggestions that eight He-277 were built and flown. 

All the previously mentioned He-277, 
GA+QR Heinkel He277 V10
GA+QM Heinkel He277 V26
GA+QX Heinkel He277 V18
GA+QQ Heinkel He277 V9

Were however on charge with E-stelle or the research facility Reichlin which means they had flown from the Heinkel works at Vienna.


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## Gixxerman (May 9, 2010)

I've long had an interest in the He 177/277 aircraft and through that also the He 274.

I have the Heinkel He177,277,274 book by Manfred Griehl Joachm Dressel and it's an interesting read.

The story I can't seem to find much about is the French experience with the 2 x He 274s they had after the war 
(they called it the AAS 01a, I believe).

I know the work was contracted to the French and work progressed incredibly slowly so that the 2 prototypes were immobile unready before France was evacuated by Germany in 1944.
I might be mistaken but I also seem to recall an attempt to destroy the planes was badly carried out (explosives in around the engines?). 

My understanding is the French repaired finished this impressive big 4 engined bomber (Bill Gunston referred to it as "probably the most advanced bomber built in Europe in WW2").
I gather they flew it until the early 1950s - and their experience with it included using the turbo-charged DB603 TK engines it was intended to use had it seen LW service.

Various high altitude research is mentioned testing involving it the Aerocentre NC270 the Sud-Ouest SO 4000.

That's about all I can come up with excepting the occasional brief mentions in general LW aircraft books on the subject of the He 177/277 (and the 277 isn't exactly a plane with a lot of data available either), none of which gives any performance data or any outline of the actual years of the French experience with this beasty. 

I was just wondering if anyone has a decent English language source on this part of the aircraft's history?


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## Propellorhead (Jun 30, 2010)

Since writing my previous posts I have delved more deeply into Stamkennzeichen records and came to realise that the He-177 B was created by RLM previous to Hitler approving the He-277 designation in August 1943. Before this the He-277 was known as the He-177 A8 type.





Photo of He-177B stkz NE+OD

Most people assume He-177 B was the He-277 aircraft under a different designation but it appears to have been an entirely different aircraft type. The He-177 B designation was issued by RLM in November 1938 and thus co-existed with the later He-177 A8 designation.

As far as I can determine, the relaevant four He-177B aircraft were NN+QQ (V101); NE+OD (V102); KM+TL (V103); DL+AT (V104).

Of these, KM+TL and DL+AT at some point had also previously been He-177 A-5 aircraft. DL+AT began it's career as the He-177 A-04. NN+QQ was found at Cheb airfield in May 1945 with the cockpit and mid fuselage burned out, but fitted with four Jumo 222A engines. This engine had a very limited production run in late 1942 which suggests the V-101 may have been converted to He-177 B-0 standard late in 1942. 

The following is simply a photo-shopped image of what the He-277 would have looked like. 






RLM's He-177 A8 designation was changed to He-277 in August 1943. At least three of the He-177 B aircraft were then apparently converted to He-277 standard with new tail empennages. The tail empennage with it's anhedral strongly resembles that of the Ju-290. If so it suggests Heinkel may have created something like a quick conversion kit for the He-177 A-5 model. 

DL+AT subsequent to He-277 conversion was given stkz GA+QM and designated V26, in other words prototype number 26. 

Subsequent to He-277 conversion NE+OD became stkz GA+QQ therefore it seems to me that the He-277 was slightly more than an urban myth.


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## Njaco (Jun 30, 2010)

Based upon your research then its possible this pic is NN+QQ?


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## Gixxerman (Jul 3, 2010)

Thanks for the heads up on the 'Heinkel He 177 Greif' book by J. Richard Smith Eddie J. Creek. 
Lots of new material for me to see. 

Njaco

That image appears in the book and is identified as He 177 V101 (which is NE+OD? W. number 5550) at Cheb in Czechoslavakia fitted with 4 x Jumo 222 driving 4 bladed props (which must have made it, assuming they worked as planned, a heck of a performer).

They mention an He 177 V102 (GA+QQ; W. number 0023) and 2 other B series prototypes.
He 177 V103 (KM+TL W. number 500036 ) and He 177 V104 (KM+UE W. number 550055)


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## Propellorhead (Jul 9, 2010)

Gixxerman said:


> Thanks for the heads up on the 'Heinkel He 177 Greif' book by J. Richard Smith Eddie J. Creek.
> Lots of new material for me to see.
> 
> Njaco
> ...



The burned out aircraft at Cheb was V101 which according to my research is NN+QQ. However just to make it more confusing V102 (former He-177 A-08 ) appears to have gained the stkz GA+QQ as a prototype for the He277. Join the confusion. 

I'm open to being corrected, as even the best informed sources get confused, or wrongly interpret conflicting sources. The aircraft however most often cited as the first prototype He-277 appears to be NN+QQ cited as W.Nr.535550. 

LEMB had the best compiled list of He-177 stammkenzeichen (stkz) codes however this appears to have gone offline now. That data base compiled data from multiple sources and contributors. Where information conflicted it identified whom the sources were. A werke number in the 535*** range means the airframe was converted from an aircraft originally built as an A-5. There were two He-277 prototypes built from A-5, one from an A-3 and another from an A-0 series, however some of these had also apparently been rebuilt from early A-0 air-frames. 

He-177 fuselages were mostly built at the Arado works at Wittemberg which was bombed in late June 1944. He-177 wings were built at Oranienberg, Germandorf, using 7000 forced labourers from Sachsenhausen. The plant was bombed 18 April 1944. Wings were also built at Rathenow. 

The He-277 almost certainly used the same basic wing as the He-177 A7 and the pressurised cockpit from the He-177 A6. It appears to me, although I can't prove it that the twin finned tail came from the Junkers Ju-290 and possibly the Letov plant near Prague. 

There are claims that at least six prototype He-177 A6/R1 aicraft and one He-177 A6/R2 aircraft were completed at the Reichlin production facility as He-277. This production facility was extensively bombed in August 1944. 

According to LEMB's database GA+QQ was former He177 A-08. An early pre-production aircraft likely built by Arado. 






Photoshopped impression of He-277 in flight

The most famous nose on photo of an He-177B sitting on a foggy airfield is that of NE+OD. Many people Gixxerman who have not seen the side on photo as you clearly have claim online that it is a photo of NN+QQ. I suspect that is how confusion is arising about the identity of V101 and V102. 

I had not heard of KM+UE being V104 before and am interested where the source is if you know please?
LEMB's database refers through sources to DL+AT. Was DL+AT a prior identity for KM+UE ?

The so called He-177B prototypes may in fact have been the four pre-production prototypes for the He-177H built at Rostock Marienehe. These were built as pre production prototypes for the two prototype He-274 which the Farman brothers were developing for Heinkel. Following the conference between Hitler and aircraft manufacturers at Obersalzberg on 23 May 1943, orders were placed to equip these four pre-production aircraft with 1,900hp DB 603G engines. 

My suspicion is that they were begun as He-177B, or He-177H prototypes, but completed as He-277 (or not completed as the case may be for the Cheb example)

http://www.fronta.cz/foto/trosky-he-177-1#comment_result


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## Propellorhead (Jul 9, 2010)

Gixxerman said:


> ... with 4 x Jumo 222 driving 4 bladed props (which must have made it, assuming they worked as planned, a heck of a performer).



The Jumo 222 had a massive power to weight ratio. Unfortunately due to poor fuel grades it had to be run at high RPM which made it prone to overheating and breakdowns. It was six Vee blocks bolted together around a common crankshaft, which caused huge plumbing problems and made supercharging it an unsolvable nightmare.

Various approaches to supercharging it were tried and failed including trying to get the Jumo 222B to run at lower RPM. Production halted in 1943 with Allied bombing of the production facility. But research engines were still built trying to resolve supercharging it. 

The DB 603G and Jumo 213E (of Kurt Tank's Ta-152 Dora), or 213F were later proposed for the He277.


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## Njaco (Jul 9, 2010)

> I'm open to being corrected, as even the best informed sources get confused, or wrongly interpret conflicting sources.



That is the most refreshing sentence I've read in a long time. Makes for a great discussion!


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## Propellorhead (Jul 10, 2010)

Njaco said:


> That is the most refreshing sentence I've read in a long time. Makes for a great discussion!



It is very easy to screw up Njaco and then take it too personally when someone tries to correct you. Nobody has a monopoly on the facts about WW2. Just when you think you know it all someone pops up and says ahem scuse me but you're wrong  

It would for example not surprise me if He-177B NN+QQ became GA+QQ.

The problem is that sources which I have read say NN+QQ was the V101 and GA+QQ was V102. If anybody knows differently then I would appreciate being corrected.

It also makes sense to me that if one of these four prototypes was based on the shorter fuselage He-177 A-0 model and others on the longer fuselage A-3 or A-5 model then it would be the longer fuselage examples converted by fitting of a twin finned tail (a la Ju-290 style) 

This then would imply that the He-177B prototype left with a conventional tail would logically be the short fuselage He-177 A-0 example and that would be the aircraft at Cheb. I just noticed incidentally that a Czech commentator on the website with photos of the He-177B burned out at Cheb claims it was deliberately torched by the germans to prevent capture and was not the victim of an Allied air raids. 

Suffice to say the last chapter is not written and one should tread carefully before asserting beliefs as facts.

I am pretty confident that the four He-177B identities are NN+QQ; NE+OD; KM+TL DL+AT. Whether I have matched their V numbers correctly is open to debate. I am interested to hear if one of those stkz is wrong and am genuinely interested to hear what information that is based upon.

I trawled through the LEMB database before it went offline and then cross referenced those which I could identify with other claims elsewhere. Even the LEMB sources contain disputed identities. 

There are also fairly persistent claims that sixteen airframes were converted to He-277 standard and that only eight flew. Those known converted to He-277 adopted GA+** stkz and appear on charge with E-2 Reichlin. There are also claims that seven He-177 A6 prototypes were completed as He-277, but sparse details. Any abandoned A6 prototypes built would likely also be in posession of Reichlin in 1944. 

I would not rule anything out.

KM+UE was Heinkel He177 A-5 W.Nr.550055 alloted to Ernst Heinkel AG (source B0163) so it is not improbable. The aircraft was some sort of company development airframe.

POST SCRIPT:

Heinkel werke sud at Schwechat, Vienna was bombed twice in 1944. The first time on 23 April 1944 only caused some damage to the assembly shop, two workshops and hangers. The result of this raid was inconclusive. Tooling may have been evacuated Reichlin after the first bombing raid. 

The second raid of 26 June 1944 was more severe. It damaged four hangers, main assembly shops, a large workshop, an office block and barracks.

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## Propellorhead (Jul 10, 2010)

zoomar said:


> I would be interested in knowing if any of the supposedly definitive "He-277B" production models with the twin enplates and improved defensive armament were made. Green, in his Warplanes of the 3rd Reich, states that a handful of these were completed after formal approval of the He-177B/He-277 program was issued but apparently not flown and scrapped shortly thereafter. This is, however, an old book and a lot of newer research has been done. Having now seen the pictures of the demolished He-277s/He-177Bs in LuftArchiv and that Czech site, I now wonder if those are the aircraft Green referred to - basically nothing more than re-engined He-177s



Six He-177 A-6/R1 and one He-177 A-6/R2 were completed as He-277 B-5 aircraft with 1,900hp DB 603G at E-Stelle 2 Reichlin as far as I can tell. 

A large number of long range Heinkel bombers were reported by a New York Times correspondent at a "secret" air base near Oslo. This base was Gardermoen built by the SS with Russian POW labour in a secluded forest area. Aircraft found at the airfield in June 1945 were cut up, possibly by 21 Army Group Royal Engineers and then railed to Horten where LST-519 dumped them at sea. 

The A-6/R1 had the forward part of it's bomb bay converted to a fuel tank, with an external bomb rack for a single large 2,500 kilogram bomb.


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## Njaco (Jul 10, 2010)

One of my sources also stated that the 277 at Cheb was blown up by the Germans rather than an allied raid.



> Just when you think you know it all someone pops up and says ahem scuse me but you're wrong



usually with some derogatory comments about one's intelligence!


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## Njaco (Sep 28, 2011)

Capt. Vick found a new pic and wbsite....

Trosky He 177


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## Crimea_River (Sep 28, 2011)

Thanks for posting Chris. Interesting shots, some of which (the He 219 ones) were discussed over at LEMB.


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## GregP (Sep 29, 2011)

Most of the books I have that address the he 177B / He 277 say the He 177B's were built and flew, the He 277 was not built and never flew. They were written in the 1950's and 1960's by people like William Green and his contemporaries.

Almost everything I have read says the 4-engine variant was, by far, the better aircraft and should have been built in lieu of the "flaming coffin."

Though the he 177 had a bad rep, it DID have some combat success, and had low loss rates when it was functioning correctly.


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## GregP (Sep 29, 2011)

I started looking around, and this seriously looks like a pic of a 4-engine variant of the He-177 tribe complete with twin tails.

View attachment 179485


It is captioned as an He-277 ... Maybe we could get a comment from The PIPE.

Oops! When I read the entire thread, I see this pic has laready been posted.

Sorry, beat me, make me feel cheap ... or hit me with The PIPE.

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## Propellorhead (Mar 18, 2012)

The photo there is of the French built He-274 with it's wingtips shortened by photoshopping. This aircraft type was abandoned by Heinkel because it was too different from the He-177 and the aim was to produce the He-277 quickly. 

Many aspects such as the pressurised cockpit migrated to the He-177 A-6 and A-7 designs. Not surprisingly therefore the He-177 A-6 was chosen for the first airframes to convert into the true He-277B with end plate tail fins. 

some more photoshop of the french aircraft:





Another view of He-177B NE+OD


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## GregP (Mar 18, 2012)

Willian Green's books in the 1960 have pics of the individually-engined aircraft and it was described as a viable aircraft, but didn;t make production.

I believe he did state that the He 277 never flew, but the prototypes of it did, as did the He 274.

I thought three flew but am not surprised to hear that four flew. I'll wait and see it written and documented somewhere else, though.


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## Vahe Demirjian (Dec 18, 2019)

Propellorhead said:


> There seems to be reasonable grounds to suggest at least 26 individual He-277 aircraft were built and flown from December 1943 when the first He-277 took flight and 2 July 1944 when all bomber production was stopped. Here are some of the registrations and constructor numbers which I have identified:
> 
> GA+QQ Heinkel He277 V9
> GA+QR Heinkel He277 V10
> ...



According to a post from Axis History Forum: 

_"Purported "He 277V9" (only a trio of He 277 prototypes were ever called for by the RLM in the first place, expected to be completed by May/June 1943 timeframe) was actually the aforementioned He 177 V103...mention of requested trio of prototypes [and ten further A-0 service test airframes, also never-built] for 8-277 category airframes mentioned on Griehl/Dressel book's pg.104.

Purported "He 277V10" was actually the He 177 V10, WkNr 00 0024, StmKz GA+QR, started out as the He 177A-09 service test series airframe, used for testing of the He 177A-4's high altitude pressurized cockpit, remained with DB 606 "welded-together engines" for power, last metioned on June 20, 1944, stated as "cannibalized" for parts. The He 177 V11 airframe, otherwise identical to the V10 but with s/n of 00 0025 and StmKz code of GA+QS, was used for flying the A-4 format pressurized test cockpit to 9.2 km altitude on August 9, 1943. (G/D ISBN 1-85310-364-0 pg. 179)

Purported "He 277V26" was actually the He 177A-04 service test airframe, WkNr 00 0019, StmKz GA+QM, remained with DB 606 "welded-together engines" for power, last officially mentioned on April 24, 1943 with the prototype designation V26 at Rechlin with "improved aerial torpedo installation", victim of aircrash. (G/D ISBN 1-85310-364-0 pgs. 226 & 232)

Purported "He 277V18" was actually the He 177A-015 service test airframe, WkNr 00 0030, StmKz GA+QX, last mentioned on June 28, 1943 as the He 177 V18 prototype airframe for the He 177A-1/U2 Zerstörer version, using twin MK 101 30mm flexible-mount autocannon at front of dramatically forward-extended Bola for anti-ship/close support attack, solely powered with DB 606 "welded-together engines", fate otherwise unknown past last official mention. (G/D ISBN 1-85310-364-0 pg. 110)"_

Literally speaking, given that the He 277 was never built, whoever claimed that 26 He 277s were built overlooked the fact that GA+QR, GA+QM, and GA+QX were actually He 177 airframes WkNr 00 0024, 00 0019, and 00 0030 respectively, and had nothing to do with the He 177B or He 277.


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## Crimea_River (Dec 18, 2019)

Ah, The PIPE!


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## Vahe Demirjian (Dec 19, 2019)

The Nevington War Museum website has a photo of an He 177 (below) that it labels as He 177 V9. However, I just got a copy of Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel's 1998 book about the Heinkel He 177 and page 51 of that book identifies it as the He 177A-0 airframe GA+QM. The Heinkel He 177 V9 (block code GA+QQ; the only preproduction He 177 to receive a _Versuchs _[experimental] number that was earmarked for conversion to an He 177B) is illustrated at the top of page 57 of Griehl and Dressel's book.


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## MiTasol (Dec 28, 2019)

Propellorhead said:


> I'm open to being corrected, as even the best informed sources get confused, or wrongly interpret conflicting sources.





Njaco said:


> That is the most refreshing sentence I've read in a long time. Makes for a great discussion!



Yes I know I am ten years behind times but the above quotes sum up the attitudes of the best posters on this forum


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## Vahe Demirjian (Jan 6, 2020)

Njaco said:


> some pics of what we're talking about......


In the second picture, the designs of the true He 277 (the one that had a bigger wingspan than the He 177B, He 177A-7, or He 177B-7) are labeled with the fictitious designation "He 277B-6". However, because the He 277 was not built, the "He 277B-6" designation was probably a typo made up by William Green in his book _Warplanes of the Third Reich _(a copy of which I recently read at the library in the Western Museum of Flight) due to the fact that the He 277 had the same fuselage cockpit nose design as the He 177A-6/R2 and Bristol Blenheim. Anthony Kay's 1972 book on German WW2 aircraft (revised edition 2002) repeats the misinformation about the He 277 and He 177B, including referring to the He 277 as "He 277B-6" and He 177B-7 as "He 277B-7".


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## Vahe Demirjian (Jan 6, 2020)

I think the title of this thread ought to be changed to "He 177B and He 277" because it's clear that the He 277 was a different plane than the He 177B, given that the He 177B was assigned much later than He 277 (see https://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=354930&mode=view).


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2020)

Vahe Demirjian said:


> I think the title of this thread ought to be changed to "He 177B and He 277" because it's clear that the He 277 was a different plane than the He 177B, given that the He 177B was assigned much later than He 277 (see https://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=354930&mode=view).



Or maybe we don’t bring decades old threads back from the dead?

A new thread would have sufficed?

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## BiffF15 (Jan 6, 2020)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Or maybe we don’t bring decades old threads back from the dead?
> 
> A new thread would have sufficed?




Does he ever reply, or is it one or two sentences after a deep archival dig and then on to the next shiny object?

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2020)

BiffF15 said:


> Does he ever reply, or is it one or two sentences after a deep archival dig and then on to the next shiny object?



He has not responded to anything I have said to him. I don’t think he responds to anyone.

Most of his posts when he resurrects the dead are links to Wikipedia...


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## Airframes (Jan 6, 2020)

I think I can hear Grieg's Peer Gynt playing in the background, feintly echoing off the mountains and fjords .....................


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## Vahe Demirjian (Jan 30, 2020)

Dan Sharp's magazine _Luftwaffe Secret Bombers of the Third Reich_ mentions on page 15 a four-engine variant of the Heinkel He 177 called the He 179, which Ernst Heinkel saw as a backup in the event the He 177's development was plagued by its unreliable DB 606 engines. However, the RLM cancelled the He 179 on September 12, 1939 as development of the He 177 picked up pace, even though the fire-prone DB 606s would be the Achilles' heel of the He 177. This piece of info is important because the He 179 was Heinkel's first ever He 177 design with four separate engines and an RLM aircraft designations webpage lists 8-179 as allocated to Heinkel, but without providing further details. The He 179 isn't mentioned in Griehl and Dressel's book on the He 177, however.


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## GrauGeist (Jan 30, 2020)

Nice little webpage, but their designation list is incomplete:
Gò - Gòppingen
AS - Arthur Sack
B - Akafleig Berlin
Rk - Kramer


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## Propellorhead (Dec 14, 2021)

Njaco said:


> One of my sources also stated that the 277 at Cheb was blown up by the Germans rather than an allied raid.
> 
> 
> 
> usually with some derogatory comments about one's intelligence!










The aircraft destroyed at Cheb was not the He277. It was an He177 B-0.

this aircraft was stkz NN+QQ (He177 V101) , an He177 B-0 variant of which existed just four prototypes, used to test Jumo 222 engines.

*He-177 V102, stkz NE+OD,(later converted to He277 stkz GA+QQ )
*He-177 V103, W.Nr.550036 stkz KM+TL,, (later converted to He277)
*He-177 V104 (converted from stkz DL+ AT)


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## MiTasol (Dec 14, 2021)

Given the bomb craters immediately in front of it I would say a significant amount of damage was from bombing.

The Germans may have finished the job but the bombs certainly did not leave it airworthy


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## Snautzer01 (Dec 14, 2021)

Propellorhead said:


> View attachment 651532
> 
> 
> The aircraft destroyed at Cheb was not the He277. It was an He177 B-0.
> ...


Notice remains are laying on a compass swing

 https://www.scalemates.com/nl/kits...cheibe-german-compass-swing-platform--1314187


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## Propellorhead (Dec 14, 2021)

Vahe Demirjian said:


> Dan Sharp's magazine _Luftwaffe Secret Bombers of the Third Reich_ mentions on page 15 a four-engine variant of the Heinkel He 177 called the He 179, which Ernst Heinkel saw as a backup in the event the He 177's development was plagued by its unreliable DB 606 engines. However, the RLM cancelled the He 179 on September 12, 1939 as development of the He 177 picked up pace, even though the fire-prone DB 606s would be the Achilles' heel of the He 177. This piece of info is important because the He 179 was Heinkel's first ever He 177 design with four separate engines and an RLM aircraft designations webpage lists 8-179 as allocated to Heinkel, but without providing further details. The He 179 isn't mentioned in Griehl and Dressel's book on the He 177, however.


On 19 November 1938 whilst ordering the first prototype He-177A Reichs Luft Ministerium (RLM) suggested to Designer Ernst Heinkel that he also develop four prototypes with a conventional engine layout just in case the DB606: paired DB 603 engine concept failed. RLM designated these aircraft as the He-177B. It was proposed by RLM that four prototype He-177B aircraft should be fitted with 986hp Jumo 211 engines individually housed in their own nacelles. 

The aircraft destroyed at Cheb was one of these four prototypes.


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## Snautzer01 (Dec 14, 2021)

Propellorhead said:


> On 19 November 1938 whilst ordering the first prototype He-177A Reichs Luft Ministerium (RLM) suggested to Designer Ernst Heinkel that he also develop four prototypes with a conventional engine layout just in case the DB606: paired DB 603 engine concept failed. RLM designated these aircraft as the He-177B. It was proposed by RLM that four prototype He-177B aircraft should be fitted with 986hp Jumo 211 engines individually housed in their own nacelles.
> 
> The aircraft destroyed at Cheb was one of these four prototypes.


This is different then post #63 by you ?


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## Propellorhead (Dec 14, 2021)

MiTasol said:


> Given the bomb craters immediately in front of it I would day a significant amount of damage was from bombing.
> 
> The Germans may have finished the job but the bombs certainly did not leave it airworthy


I originally understood the aircraft was destroyed by an air attack and then I was corrected by someone claiming the Germans destroyed it themselves. possibly : both claims are correct that an air attack rendered it unairworthy so it was torched to prevent capture?


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## Njaco (Dec 14, 2021)

Could it be we may be discussing at cross purposes here? I seem to recall that I posted over 10 years ago (I think) that Heinkel was playing with the idea of a 4 engined 177 in 1938 but in order to keep hidden from RLM, called it He 177B. Later it was allowed to be given the designation He277. Sooo, could it be that while some are locked onto the "No 277, only 'B' models" in reality we are talking about the same plane but at different times of its development? He177B in 1938 and He277 in 1943? I'll hide behind the dust cloud now.

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## wuzak (Dec 14, 2021)

Propellorhead said:


> On 19 November 1938 whilst ordering the first prototype He-177A Reichs Luft Ministerium (RLM) suggested to Designer Ernst Heinkel that he also develop four prototypes with a conventional engine layout just in case *the DB606: paired DB 603 engine concept failed*. RLM designated these aircraft as the He-177B. It was proposed by RLM that four prototype He-177B aircraft should be fitted with 986hp Jumo 211 engines individually housed in their own nacelles.



The DB 606 was paired *DB 601*s.

Later He 177s got the DB 610, which was paired *DB 605*s.

The paired DB 603 was designated the *DB 613*. Not sure if any flew.


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