# Options to save a trapped ball turret gunner in a bomber wheels up landing



## Jenisch (May 24, 2012)

Hello,

I found out a terrible story of a B-17 that couldn't deploy it's landing gear, and at the same time the ball turret gunner was by some reason trapped inside the turret. Unfornately he had an unpleseant death, as the aircraft landed in such way. I don't know what was the state of the aircraft, but since the hydraulics were out it could have been damaged.

If I was a pilot, to try save the men I was thinking of try put the B-17 down upside down, but don't know if would be possible for the B-17 to fly upside down. I think it would be needed to put it in a high speed dive, and the control forces generated would render the attempt useless. Not to mention the risk would be very high. The other crew members would not be much a problem for this, if possible, as they would be able to bail out.

Certainly the crew tried the most they could to save him, but do you people think that assuming an all functional plane it would be possible to do something?


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## tyrodtom (May 24, 2012)

I don't see how landing upside down would save the ball turret gunner. 
Have you ever noticed the radical nose-up attitude ( nose down when you're in the aircraft) a aircraft has to take to fly upside down ? Plus the stall speed would be higher upside down. Now imagine trying to land like that. That's even IF a B-17 could fly upside down.
Rolling the aircraft into a flaming ball on the runway isn't going to help the ball gunner.

The turret was stuck so the gunner couldn't get out, and ball turrets were too tight for most gunners to wear a parachute. So they couldn't just drop the turret. The landing gear was stuck also, and being after a mission the aircraft probably low on fuel. So they probably didn't have a lot of time to come up with any bright ideas.


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## vikingBerserker (May 24, 2012)

I think the problem of upside down would be the tail would hit first and slam the cockpit into the runway while probably killing the pilot and/or copilot. I'm not sure what you could do beyond almost stalling the plane above a freshly plowed field and drop the turret.


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## gumbyk (May 24, 2012)

I'd doubt that _any_ bomber would be able to fly inverted. They wouldn't have had inverted fuel/oil systems, so the engines would have quit pretty quickly.

_If_ you managed to land it, most likely, the aircraft would roll itself into a ball, and kill all remaining aboard (including the gunner and pilots), so the outcome would be worse.

Even if everything was functioning normally, in this situation, the outcome is grim.


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## wuzak (May 24, 2012)

Maybe if there was a grass bank off to one side of the runway the pilot could set one wing down on that the other on the flat, hopefully allowing clearence for the ball turret.


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## model299 (May 24, 2012)

There was a discussion on that very subject in this thread.


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## jimh (May 25, 2012)

The B-17 is an electric airplane...there are two things that are hydraulic, the brakes and the cowl flaps. The Ball Turret is electric. There is a tool kit attached to the turret assembly that allows you to drop the turret from the airframe in the event of a gear failure. The turret mount will shove through the top of the fuselage rendering this part of the airframe beyond useful repair. There are also hand cranks to manipulate the turret in such a way to get the crewmember out...if that doesn't work you can put the turret in neutral by disengaging the clutch. I've been flying a B-17 for almost 10 years how and I've never seen or heard a first hand account of a ball turret gunner getting crushed...if anything the turret will push through the fuselage out of harms way. 

jim

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## FLYBOYJ (May 25, 2012)

Thanks for the clarification Jim! We ran a thread about this earlier. If a B-17 landed gear up with the ball turret full down it would either get pushed in (as stated by Jim) or it would break the back of the aircraft. The ball turret is not a delicate piece of hardware and is rather robust in construction. On the earlier thread someone submitted stories about personnel being killed while stuck inside a ball turret. I don’t know the validity of these stories but if proven to be true, I would think that being tossed around within a stuck turret would be the cause of death rather than the turret collapsing around the unfortunate gunner.

I believe Andy Rooney said he witnessed this during one of the missions be flew as a reporter during WW2. With all respect to Mr. Rooney, IMO its utter BS…

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## drgondog (May 25, 2012)

Jim - doesn't the B-17 have a hand crank to get the Mains down? Would one main gear come down even if the other doesn't? If so that would possibly give some relief to a full contact smack on the Ball wouldn't it?


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## tyrodtom (May 25, 2012)

Andy Rooney explained it as a hydraulic failure, but that was just his explanation. He mechanical knowledge of a B-17 probably went no further than how to open the entry hatch.

There's plenty of ways battle damage could have made it so neither could be moved by their manual systems though.

Sturdy as that turret might be, I can't see any chance of riding out a wheels up landing in it, it'd be the first part of the aircraft to touch the runway.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 25, 2012)

tyrodtom said:


> Andy Rooney explained it as a hydraulic failure, but that was just his explanation. He mechanical knowledge of a B-17 probably went no further than how to open the entry hatch.
> 
> There's plenty of ways battle damage could have made it so neither could be moved by their manual systems though.
> 
> Sturdy as that turret might be, I can't see any chance of riding out a wheels up landing in it, it'd be the first part of the aircraft to touch the runway.

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## drgondog (May 25, 2012)

Joe - I wonder if left Main down and right main collapsed in this pic?

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## drgondog (May 25, 2012)

tyrodtom said:


> Andy Rooney explained it as a hydraulic failure, but that was just his explanation. He mechanical knowledge of a B-17 probably went no further than how to open the entry hatch.
> 
> There's plenty of ways battle damage could have made it so neither could be moved by their manual systems though.
> 
> Sturdy as that turret might be, I can't see any chance of riding out a wheels up landing in it, it'd be the first part of the aircraft to touch the runway.



Seems possible to touch tail wheel and (slim possibility) ride nose high until it stalls.


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## barney (May 25, 2012)

tyrodtom said:


> Andy Rooney explained it as a hydraulic failure, but that was just his explanation. He mechanical knowledge of a B-17 probably went no further than how to open the entry hatch.



Yeah, the gear is electric.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 25, 2012)

drgondog said:


> Joe - I wonder if left Main down and right main collapsed in this pic?


Hard to say - I have another one where the back of the aircraft is split in two at the bulkhead where the turret is installed.

Riding in a turret during a wheels up landing is like going over Niagara Falls in a barrel. I think chances of survival are increased if one was to get the tail wheel or at least one MLG down. Bottom line, the ball isn't going to shatter like it was depicted on that Steven Spielberg TV show that aired many years ago.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK22liTIoqw_


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## TheMustangRider (May 25, 2012)

Hey, I remember watching that show on reruns during the mid-90's when I was child, brings back so much memories!
It was on that episode when I saw a B-17 the first time ever

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## jimh (May 26, 2012)

The Main Gear, Tailwheel, Flaps, Bombay Doors, Chin Turret, Top Turret and Ball Turret are electric. The Main Gear, Flaps, Tailwheel, and Bombay Doors have hand cranks. The Ball Turret also has its own unique hand cranks that work both inside and outside the turret. 

When the gear "retracted" on Aluminum Overcast" during rollout a few years ago the ballturret pole punctured the fuselage and did little damage to the turret. The ball turret is is considered "armored" and quite thick. It would take alot of punishment. 

jim


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## Vitamin-P (Mar 15, 2018)

Andy Rooney did, indeed, write such a story. I believe I read, somewhere, that Mr. Rooney admitted that he did not witness the event he wrote about. No one has produced any documentation of such an incident. The National Museum of the United States Air Force calls it an "urban legend." However, a story published in World War II Magazine about two 100BG B-17s that collided might satisfy the myth, though not as poetically. The ball turret gunner, Sgt. Joseph L. Russo, was stuck in his turret, and died in resulting crash landing. Read the following: 
http://www.historynet.com/bizarre-b-17-collision-over-the-north-sea-during-world-war-ii.htm and
*https://100thbg.com/index.php?option=com_bombgrp&view=personnel&Itemid=334&id=4536*
I'll add, that my father was a flight engineer/gunner on B-24 Liberators with the 14AF 308BG 375BS. He told a story that attests to the robustness of the mounting of the ball turret in the airframe. A B-24, returned from a combat mission with the ball turret retracted into the fuselage, but the guns not rotated to horizontal. The gun barrels hit the runway, and bent the airframe. The airplane had to be written off.


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## parsifal (Mar 16, 2018)

Further discussion on this issue can be found here:


Story Of Heroism - The trapped belly turret gunner


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## Jugman (Mar 16, 2018)

I think it's entirely plausible that a ball turret could be damaged in such a way that it would collapse on landing. But it's not very likely that this would happen without killing the occupant in the process. That being said it's surprising to me the kind of damage an aircraft can take and not kill or even in some cases seriously injure those inside. By far my favorite example is the case of the P-47 that bomb the runway he was landing on. Needless to say his ship had signs of considerable misuse after the event. I can't remember the pilot's name but he suffered only minor injuries.


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## strider190 (May 28, 2020)

All,

I know of one and only one incident when a B17 had to make a belly landing and couldnt get the BTG out. In the entire war. The combination of battle damage that made it impossible to get the gear down, and also crank the ball turret down, guns pointing down, (hatch inside the fuselage) so that the gunner could get out was rare. Only one incident in the entire war. I know the pilot of this airplane circled his field for some time, with everyone trying to figure out how to get the gunner out, fuel finally forced him to land. Also my dad flying B17's in WW2 told me of an incident when his ship was heavily damaged, 2 engines out. They jettisoned everything not riveted down and worked for several hours trying to detach the ball turret, which supposedly was possible to do, even in flight, but finally gave up. And no, flying inverted in a 17' to make a landing was not an option for most of the reasons previously noted. The ship_ was _capable of inverted flight, for a few seconds, as my dad found out when he hit what he thought was the prop wash of a group in front of him. His ship was tossed on its back and it took 2000 feet to recover. The B 17 was truly a remarkable plane and dad told me several times through the years that had he been flying any other bomber... I would not be here today!

CAPT G. Graves Naval Aviator, USN ret.

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## Koopernic (May 28, 2020)

Jenisch said:


> Hello,
> 
> I found out a terrible story of a B-17 that couldn't deploy it's landing gear, and at the same time the ball turret gunner was by some reason trapped inside the turret. Unfornately he had an unpleseant death, as the aircraft landed in such way. I don't know what was the state of the aircraft, but since the hydraulics were out it could have been damaged.
> 
> ...



If I was engineering that ball turret I would design it to break off and be pushed into the fuselage. That would be to minimise structural damage to the airframe and also to provide a good chance for a gunner that was trapped in the ball turret. Id be surprised if this wasn't done. Would you make the attachments so strong?


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## FLYBOYJ (May 28, 2020)

Koopernic said:


> If I was engineering that ball turret I would design it to break off and be pushed into the fuselage. That would be to minimise structural damage to the airframe and also to provide a good chance for a gunner that was trapped in the ball turret. Id be surprised if this wasn't done. Would you make the attachments so strong?


I don't know if that was ever the intention but look photos of the ball turret from the inside of a B-17 or B-24. I would not call the installation a bastion of structural fortitude!

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## Koopernic (May 29, 2020)

FLYBOYJ said:


> I don't know if that was ever the intention but look photos of the ball turret from the inside of a B-17 or B-24. I would not call the installation a bastion of structural fortitude!
> 
> 
> View attachment 583287




Three things can happen; the turret ball can collapse, the turret mountings can detach and the ball end up in the fuselage or the aircraft structure can collapse. I'm sure there were a lot of belly landings without a trapped gunner. 

This is a movie of Stunt Pilot Many Manz crashing a B17 for a movie. There is no Belly Turret.


This is a video of an actual 1944 B17 belly landing. The narrator says "ball turret jettisoned to save breaking his back"


This is a B17 crash landing with only one wheel, the turret is still present, the remaining undercarriage leg does not collapse


This is a B17 crash landing with only one wheel, the turret is still present, the remaining undercarriage leg dose collapse half way through the landing but there appears no damage or collapse. Interesting is the ground crew that come along with air bladders to inflate and lift the aircraft. Also what looks like a fireman in PPE with some kind of breathing bladder on his back.


I can not find video of a ball turret collapse.

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## FLYBOYJ (May 30, 2020)

Koopernic said:


> Three things can happen; the turret ball can collapse, the turret mountings can detach and the ball end up in the fuselage or the aircraft structure can collapse. I'm sure there were a lot of belly landings without a trapped gunner.



I've had the opportunity to be around a ball turret purchased by a company I worked for 40 years ago. They are as thick and dense as a battleship anchor. The only way I can see the ball turret caving in if it was first dragged along a concrete runway and then weight placed on the right spot to compromise it's construction. "The turret mountings detaching and the ball ending up in the fuselage or the aircraft structure collapsing" will be the more likely scenario IMO. In either case it would be like going over Niagara Falls in a barrel for the guy inside.

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## sotaro (Jun 19, 2020)

Koopernic said:


> Three things can happen; the turret ball can collapse, the turret mountings can detach and the ball end up in the fuselage or the aircraft structure can collapse. I'm sure there were a lot of belly landings without a trapped gunner.
> 
> This is a movie of Stunt Pilot Many Manz crashing a B17 for a movie. There is no Belly Turret.
> 
> ...




"Also what looks like a fireman in PPE with some kind of breathing bladder on his back." I think the thing on his back is his hood and helmet which seems to be attached at the back of his jacket.


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