# Mig-23 flaw?



## Nodeo-Franvier (Dec 15, 2020)

In your opinion what is Mig-23 greatest flaws and what elements of it design should be changed?


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## J_P_C (Dec 17, 2020)

by the numbers:
1) it was "too little and too late" (analog airplane in the advent of digital era) it was response to the expected development of western aircraft technology which never went in predicted by russians direction
2) generally swap wing concept does not match to the tactical fighter role
3) it's avionics was outdated from very beginning - could be except EOS which was far ahead of it's time
4) it was build around tactical concept which was far inferrior in compare to this one developed by potential enemy

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## tomo pauk (Dec 17, 2020)

5, if not 10 years too late; swing wing was more trouble than it was worth it (earlier Mirage F1 did just fine with 'normal' wing; the wing on MiG-23 required 2 redesigns to became secure enough for aircraft doing high G maneuvers not to disintegrate; it adds to the design time, complexity to produce and maintain; more expensive than fixed wing); air intake was not 'canted' for less problems during high AoA flight,;cockpit was of 'burried' version, just when F-14 and F-15 were about to re-introduce 'elevated' cockpits. Then we have the policy of supplying some of the foreign costumers with dumbed-down versions, MiG-23 being probably the worst in that regard.

But, all in all, being too late is the worst mistake for a weapon of war.

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## Admiral Beez (Dec 17, 2020)

Did the MiG-23/27 ever successfully engage a Western or Israeli fighter? The Flogger seems to be the default ride for Redshirts. As for tactical-level swing wings, the best looking of the Soviet‘s has to be the Su-24 Fencer.


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## Nodeo-Franvier (Dec 17, 2020)

Admiral Beez said:


> Did the MiG-23/27 ever successfully engage a Western or Israeli fighter? The Flogger seems to be the default ride for Redshirts. As for tactical-level swing wings, the best looking of the Soviet‘s has to be the Su-24 Fencer.



It seem that Iraq Mig-23 have shot down Iran M-14 and other older fighter such as F-4 and F-5.
There is even a report about it shooting down F-16.


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## J_P_C (Dec 18, 2020)

Admiral Beez said:


> Did the MiG-23/27 ever successfully engage a Western or Israeli fighter? The Flogger seems to be the default ride for Redshirts. As for tactical-level swing wings, the best looking of the Soviet‘s has to be the Su-24 Fencer.


yes it happen, at least twice time Soviet Mig-23MLD have scored victory over Pakistani F-16A, but MLD wasn't sold to export customers

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## elbmc1969 (Dec 18, 2020)

Excessively bouncy landing gear. Caused too much training attrition and would have been far worse in WWIII operational attrition.

Doesn't matter how good or bad your aircraft are if they keep crashing themselves.


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## J_P_C (Dec 18, 2020)

elbmc1969 said:


> Excessively bouncy landing gear. Caused too much training attrition and would have been far worse in WWIII operational attrition.
> 
> Doesn't matter how good or bad your aircraft are if they keep crashing themselves.


really???? - where you have found this info?? - i didn't noticed anything like this during my career - in my opinion landing gear of this airplane was piece of excellent engineering, sturdy, well thought, excellent kinematics solution, truly said i observed just one bumpy landing during my service - result of breaking parachute release before landing gear even touched runway (hard to say what distance above ground it was, 2-3m maybe)- result was repairable demage to the aft bottom portion of fuselage and nothing more - airplane was repaired during night and flown next day.

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## Nodeo-Franvier (Dec 18, 2020)

J_P_C said:


> really???? - where you have found this info?? - i didn't noticed anything like this during my career - in my opinion landing gear of this airplane was piece of excellent engineering, sturdy, well thought, excellent kinematics solution, truly said i observed just one bumpy landing during my service - result of breaking parachute release before landing gear even touched runway (hard to say what distance above ground it was, 2-3m maybe)- result was repairable demage to the aft bottom portion of fuselage and nothing more - airplane was repaired during night and flown next day.



Are you any chance eastern block pilot?


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## J_P_C (Dec 20, 2020)

Nodeo-Franvier said:


> Are you any chance eastern block pilot?


i'm aircraft engineer with - 10 years of my career ive spend in military service - eastern block has dissapear in 1989 - two years before i've started my university

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## The Basket (Dec 20, 2020)

Depends.

If the Flogger was Fishbed replacement and improvement model then yeah mission accomplished.

If the enemy was F-4 Phantom or F-5 Tiger then ok I can see where the Flogger has its advantages.

Early F-16 did not have BVR capability so again the Flogger would have an advantage.

NATO in the 70s/80s were flying all sorts so yes the Flogger would have advantages against the Fiat G91Y of the world.

So MiG-23 v F-22 Raptor....maybe not.
MiG-23 v Mirage III? I would be not so sure.


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## J_P_C (Dec 20, 2020)

The Basket said:


> Depends.
> 
> If the Flogger was Fishbed replacement and improvement model then yeah mission accomplished.
> 
> ...


Mig23 had couple advantages over F-4, F-5 - unrefueled range/mission endurance, R-60 missiles, and excellent gun - and basically this is it. Any other factor was up to pilot skills with huge advantage for the western airplanes in a term of avionics. You are overestimating R-23 - missile disigned as a weapon against bombers - practicaly uselles against fighter class target.
MirageIII - Mig may have chance if Mirage's pilot will be stupid enough to accept combat in vertical plane - in horizontal plane Mig23 (or any other mentioned by you US made fighters) will be easy prey for Mirage.

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## The Basket (Dec 20, 2020)

Against aircraft like the Mirage 3 or F-5 or even the English Electric Lightning then the Flogger ain't in a bad place.

Even if the R-23 was marginal then a Mirage 3 to use it's Magics is going to have to get well within the range of the Apex. And that will be of a tactical consideration.

Also early AAM were not as capable as today so an Aphid is not an Archer. An early Magic or Sidewinder is not a sure thing.

Any Flogger pilot getting his wings out doing low and slow is not a clever pilot. Swing the wings, full afterburner and boom and zoom.


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## J_P_C (Dec 20, 2020)

The Basket said:


> Against aircraft like the Mirage 3 or F-5 or even the English Electric Lightning then the Flogger ain't in a bad place.
> 
> Even if the R-23 was marginal then a Mirage 3 to use it's Magics is going to have to get well within the range of the Apex. And that will be of a tactical consideration.
> 
> ...


 I had chance to compare live fire performance of the R-60 and R-3 - believe me this two missiles are from different point of technology development but you are right about R-73 it is as big step fwd as R-60 was in compare to R-3 (basically copy of the Sidewinder b/c). Kind of Mig-23's advantage was it's engine. Pretty astonishing in a term of dynamic and adaptation time much better in this term than later turbofan generation. But the point is when you miss your first pass or you are in defensive position all Mig's advantages means almost nothing if your enemy has better situational awarness or is better in E/M management.

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## The Basket (Dec 20, 2020)

Tactical or situation awareness and training or electronic warfare has nothing to do with the Flogger. That would be a strength or disadvantage for any fighter.

But if we create a scenario like the Falklands and let's say MiG-23 v Sea Harrier. The Sea Harrier will out maneuver me and has the nine lima so I don't want to test that plus a gun.

However, the performance is subsonic and doesn't have BVR and a limited radar capability.

Can the Flogger radar pick up the Sea Harrier at a lower altitude so it can fire the R-23? The R-60 was a tail chaser and short-range so I would be well within the nine lima kill envelope so give that a miss. 

So my advantages are stay at higher altitude and take speculative shots with the R-23 or sweep the wings and run at them and try 23mm or Aphid them and run away before I get a nine lima up the wazoo.

I remember reading that in the Iran Iraq war as soon as an Iraqi fighter was pinged by a Tomcat it would run. Not exactly a win winner but very sensible!


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## J_P_C (Dec 20, 2020)

The Basket said:


> Tactical or situation awareness and training or electronic warfare has nothing to do with the Flogger. That would be a strength or disadvantage for any fighter.
> 
> But if we create a scenario like the Falklands and let's say MiG-23 v Sea Harrier. The Sea Harrier will out maneuver me and has the nine lima so I don't want to test that plus a gun.
> 
> ...



Spot on - you described real combat situation which clearly underscored all weaknesses of -23. This airplane was thought as a part of integrated defence system - node of this system was ground command centers this is why Soviets scored vs. F16 over Afghanistan - they had opportunity to use it exactly as it was designed - without GCI you are limited to the thermolocator because radar performance is close to hopeless - at least monkey versions Soviets have sold to the their "alies".

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## The Basket (Dec 20, 2020)

Well if you look at the MiG-29 which is certainly a magnitude ahead of the MiG-23 and see how that fares against western fighters.

The Flogger was part of an integrated air defence system. And so if a western fighter was flying over Eastern Europe during WW III then a Flogger would only be a fraction of that air defence.

I have no access to the real radar capability of Soviet Floggers or the true kill probability of the R-23. So it's not Spitfire v Me 109. It's all about the electronic capability and not the instantaneous turn rate.


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## J_P_C (Dec 20, 2020)

The Basket said:


> Well if you look at the MiG-29 which is certainly a magnitude ahead of the MiG-23 and see how that fares against western fighters.
> 
> The Flogger was part of an integrated air defence system. And so if a western fighter was flying over Eastern Europe during WW III then a Flogger would only be a fraction of that air defence.
> 
> I have no access to the real radar capability of Soviet Floggers or the true kill probability of the R-23. So it's not Spitfire v Me 109. It's all about the electronic capability and not the instantaneous turn rate.


0.6 for R-23R - B52 sized targed no ECM used - of course it is given as courves set, depends of all relevant factors but 0.6 as single number is locating it around middle performance. Probably you have noticed large aerodynamic surfaces of this missile - easy to conclude how lousy maneouvring preformace it had. About radar performance MF had detection range around 50-40km for the B52 RCS size target, my guess is that MLD had may be 15% better detection range and main difference between MF and MLD was better resistance to the jamming (bigger frequency range) and higher degree af automatisation in a term of radar operation.


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## The Basket (Dec 20, 2020)

If I am going up against a Phoenix armed Tomcat in a MiG-23 with those figures then pardon me i am ejecting on the runway. Cuts the middleman out.

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## J_P_C (Dec 20, 2020)

finally you have understood technological advantage west had - pretty much ever, over Soviets or Russians. Only period when gap have been slightly smaller was 1960s. Then digital revolution has begun and capability gap has grown again.

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## The Basket (Dec 20, 2020)

If you're a Flogger pilot in 1982 in the WarPac then what am I up against and what am I not.

B-52s? C-130s? Phantoms? I don't think that's a bad thing. Maybe F-15A is the only fly in the soup but everything else is fair go. F-111 and IDS Tornado are not shooting back! Alpha Jet? Mirage 3? Draken?


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## J_P_C (Dec 20, 2020)

The Basket said:


> If you're a Flogger pilot in 1982 in the WarPac then what am I up against and what am I not.
> 
> B-52s? C-130s? Phantoms? I don't think that's a bad thing. Maybe F-15A is the only fly in the soup but everything else is fair go. F-111 and IDS Tornado are not shooting back! Alpha Jet? Mirage 3? Draken?



Somehow true, from specific point of view this airplanes representing similar technological level, than you are coming to the details and realising what in your equipment is just pure propaganda and what is reality. Since 1980's avionics become most important part of combat airplane. In this term 23rd immidiately become outdated. You have to remember about specific aspect in Soviet approach to the aircraft technology - they have been pretty reluctant to modify line serving machines. 23rd which comes to the service in specific configuration has been scrapped 16 years later in exactly the same configuration nothing like F-16s MLU process or Tornado comes through gradual update programs.

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## The Basket (Dec 20, 2020)

I am not saying the Flogger was a god tier fighter. But I am not saying it was junk.

It was a fighter which could perform limited mission goals based on it's capability.

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## J_P_C (Dec 20, 2020)

The Basket said:


> I am not saying the Flogger was a god tier fighter. But I am not saying it was junk.
> 
> It was a fighter which could perform limited mission goals based on it's capability.


This is along with my opinion - difficult machine requiring very skilled pilot to perform as designed. WIth highly skilled pilot it was deadly beast with some chances even to stand against next gen. machines like F15/16 or Mig29. I've seen gun cameras pictures taken during NATO exercises confirming this , and personally i've observed mockup dogfight against MiG29 - result was draw - of course Mig29 pilot played fair and he haven't used helmet sight ....


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## Glider (Dec 20, 2020)

The Basket said:


> I am not saying the Flogger was a god tier fighter. But I am not saying it was junk.
> 
> It was a fighter which could perform limited mission goals based on it's capability.



I totally agree, in the FAA (mid 70's) we were told to consider it roughly equal to an early F4, which sounds about right. It would no doubt struggle against the later F4, early F16 and Lightning but a lot of Nato countries were equipped with F104G, F5A, Mirage III/5 and some F100's were in use in Turkey. Against these the Mig 23 was a serious threat

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## Nodeo-Franvier (Dec 22, 2020)

Glider said:


> I totally agree, in the FAA (mid 70's) we were told to consider it roughly equal to an early F4, which sounds about right. It would no doubt struggle against the later F4, early F16 and Lightning but a lot of Nato countries were equipped with F104G, F5A, Mirage III/5 and some F100's were in use in Turkey. Against these the Mig 23 was a serious threat


 Even Mig-23MLD variant?


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## J_P_C (Dec 23, 2020)

Nodeo-Franvier said:


> Even Mig-23MLD variant?


MLD had number of improvements over export variants, better radar, better thermolocator, capability of use more sophisticated air to ground weapon, better radio set, newer RSBN system, RSDN which was absent on export versions, newer datalink replacing then absolete Lazur system, newer IFF - basically everything inside of this airplane was different than on export variants. Could be this carefull "crippling" of the export variant partially is behind it's not quite deserved fame of piece of junk.

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## ARTESH (Mar 19, 2021)

Well, here are some statistics from Iranian Air Force F-14 Tomcats to compare!

1- Iran has ordered 80 Tomcats, all except 1 were delivered.

2- 2 of them were downed in Shah's time. Before 1979.

3- 12 of them were downed during Iran / Iraq war, 6 were victims of Friendly fire, 4 were downed by Sandwitch attacks by Iraqi Air Force Mirages, 1 was defected, 1 unknown reason. 1980 - 1989.

4- 4 were downed 1989 onwards!

5- Iranian Tomcats shot down 165 Iraqi planes, confirmed by both sides, as well as western nations! Of cource the exact number could be difrent!

6- 92 of these, were difrent models / versions of MiG, Including MiG-21, 23 and 25's

7- 8 Iranian Ace pilots, all Tomcat pilots, have shot down 68 Iraqi planes.

I hope it helps you a little!

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## SaparotRob (Mar 19, 2021)

ARTESH said:


> Well, here are some statistics from Iranian Air Force F-14 Tomcats to compare!
> 
> 1- Iran has ordered 80 Tomcats, all except 1 were delivered.
> 
> ...


Well, being from Long Island New York, Go Grumman!

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## elbmc1969 (Mar 19, 2021)

I got to see the first test article of the F-14's wing pivot section. Massive piece of titanium ...

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## Dimlee (Mar 25, 2021)

ARTESH said:


> 3- 12 of them were downed during Iran / Iraq war, 6 were victims of Friendly fire, 4 were downed by Sandwitch attacks by Iraqi Air Force Mirages, 1 was defected, 1 unknown reason. 1980 - 1989.



6 - friendly fire. SAM or else?


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## ARTESH (Mar 25, 2021)

Dimlee said:


> 6 - friendly fire. SAM or else?


All 6 planes were recorded as friendly fire for some reasons, but here are details, published after 30 years:

1- 14 April, 1981 - Captain Jafar Mardani / 1Lt. GH. Abdolshahi --- Erected spin after refueling - both crew KIA.

2- 15 July, 1982 - 1Lt. Hassan Harandi / 1Lt. Ahmad Roustaiee --- Damaged in Air Battle - Both crew ejected and rescued by friendly forces. The statue with Iraqi pilot standing on a F-14, is made by remains of this Tomcat.

3- 11 August, 1984 - Colonel S. M. H. Al-e Aqa / Captain Mohammad Rostam pour --- no info about this incident! Col. Al-e Aqa KIA, RIO rescued by Navy SAR team.

4- 24 March, 1985 - Major Abbas Hazin / 1Lt. S. H. Hosseini --- This plane was hit by Hawk Missile, Pilot ejected and rescued by Navy SAR team, RIO ejected but failed to control himself and drowned in Persian Gulf.

5- 2 June, 1986 - Captain Arsalan Khademian / 1Lt. Ahmad Roustaiee --- hit by Hawk, both crew ejected abd rescued by friendly forces.

6- 11 July, 1987 - Major Alireza Bi-taraf / Captain Mansour Khanpour --- planed downed after hyrauluc failure, both crew ejected, but Major Bi-Taraf exactly kanded on burning remains of plane and dies of burns, immediatly.

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## Dimlee (Mar 26, 2021)

Thanks, Artesh. So it seems that from 6, only 4 can be suspected as the friendly fire. 2, 4, and 5 - hit by friendly AAM, if I read it correctly.

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## Mesan (Mar 26, 2021)

It is known that Colonel Al-e Aqha's Tomcat was shot down by an Iraqi Mig-23ML


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## The Basket (Mar 28, 2021)

The Flogger shot something down?

That is one for the books.

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## ARTESH (Mar 29, 2021)

Dimlee said:


> Thanks, Artesh. So it seems that from 6, only 4 can be suspected as the friendly fire. 2, 4, and 5 - hit by friendly AAM, if I read it correctly.



Yes, You`re right.



Mesan said:


> It is known that Colonel Al-e Aqha's Tomcat was shot down by an Iraqi Mig-23ML



no sign of any MiGs over Persian Gulf that day! Mirages and Saudi F-15s!



The Basket said:


> The Flogger shot something down?
> 
> That is one for the books.



Iran claims that an Iranian Airforce F-5 pilot shot down an Iraqi MiG-25!


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 4, 2021)

F-14 RIO has some revealing things about the MiG-21 and MiG-23

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## special ed (Jun 4, 2021)

A really great video which gives a view to these books: America's Secret MiG squadron by Col. Gaillard Peck,Jr. and Red Eagles by Steve Davies, and in similar way, Tonopah Test Range activities in: Skunk Works by Ben Rich, and Dark Eagles by Curtis Peebles. If this video was of interest, check out these books. They are old enough it makes me wonder what they are doing now. A Quick story, before the American MiGs were publicly revealed, I was in Thibodeaux, Louisiana on a service call and I had time to goof off so I went to the USAF recruiter to ask for photos. While he was digging out the photos, I noticed a very good shot of a SR-71 landing but taken from above. He said he took it in Japan with 1000mm lens. That opened conversation to photography and I commented, eventually when our MiGs were no longer classified, I could photo them at a Nellis open house. At that point I was making an educated guess about us having MiGs and where they were. He said, "They're not at Nellis, they're....". He caught himself and smiled.

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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 4, 2021)

I was on the F117 program and we knew there was something going on with Soviet aircraft and the government also used the “UFO“ cover story to hide a lot of the stuff.

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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 4, 2021)

Some of the guys I worked with saw the white F7s


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## SaparotRob (Jun 4, 2021)

That was a great video. I wandered off and watched his vid on UPA's. Cool stuff. I love UFO stories.

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## special ed (Jun 4, 2021)

I had guessed we had MiGs because Aviation Week and newspapers noted General Electric got a contract to overhaul Egypt's MiG 21 engines and how did they know how? The newspaper had an account of the Colonel killed in the MiG 23 and my thought was why and how was he in a MiG 23. Years later, in the book, The Colonel died because he wouldn't listen during checkout. He was due to retire in weeks and wanted to fly the MiG 23 before he separated. The book tells that when the MiG 23 throttle is opened and at speed, the pilot can not just pull back, because there is a built in slow reduction in speed to prevent pitch up with rapid reduction. The Col. didn't want to hear it so it was determined he thought the engine ran away and ejected.

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## The Basket (Jun 5, 2021)

Stuff already in public domain so the idea that the Flogger can out run and has the turning circle of a bus is not new.

Surprised by how aggressively the Flogger was flown. Although it's use of boom and zoom tactics are logical.

Next question would be where the Floggers came from as I don't think I have read definitive proof either way.

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## SaparotRob (Jun 5, 2021)

I'd love to learn about the spare parts acquisition missions.

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## The Basket (Jun 5, 2021)

Very interesting to learn if they learned anything from the Flogger that flew across Europe and crashes in Belgium.

A lot of the back end was intact and this was a proper Soviet flogger.

Here is a tip. Don't google Flogger. Unless you have an open mind.

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## special ed (Jun 5, 2021)

It's all in the book. Aircraft from around the world along with parts.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 5, 2021)

The Basket said:


> Stuff already in public domain so the idea that the Flogger can out run and has the turning circle of a bus is not new.
> 
> Surprised by how aggressively the Flogger was flown. Although it's use of boom and zoom tactics are logical.
> 
> Next question would be where the Floggers came from as I don't think I have read definitive proof either way.



What's interesting here is you're hearing it first hand from someone who actually had the opportunity to train against a MIG-23. Belenko might have been available for information, I knew he flew MiG-17s, Don't know if he had time in -23s

I always heard that the MiG-23s came from Egypt, again, Just a rumor. The F7s might have came from there too as well as Iraq before hostilities


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## The Basket (Jun 5, 2021)

If the Flogger was Egyptian then I would expect Egyptian pilots who are trained on Flogger.

A pilot will tell you the full story. It's true capability and the weakness and strength. Plus use of radar and the missile envelope.

Although it will depend if the Soviets gave the Egyptians a proper Soviet spec Flogger or an export junker.

I love the idea of the Flogger having no engine limiters and will go as fast as it can until it melts. With the swept wings back it must be a rocketship.

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## special ed (Jun 5, 2021)

Okay, you made me get the book down and look for the countries that supplied the MiGs. I must have pulled most bookmarks, but while looking I came across this quote: "We never had a good supply of engines, [He's talking about MiG 23] and I don't think we ever got more than about 30 hours on a motor before we had to pull it and rebuild it. We operated ten Floggers and on our best day we probably had six running; it was usually three or four. The problem with the Flogger was also that you had to pull the plane in half to get to the engine in or out. I would walk into a hangar and see up to seven of our ten broken in half, and would ask myself, how many more times are we going to be able to put them together without someone making a mistake? "
That is from Red Eagles

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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 5, 2021)

The Basket said:


> I love the idea of the Flogger having no engine limiters and will go as fast as it can until it melts. With the swept wings back it must be a rocketship.



IIRC I remember reading the MiG-25 is that way. My father in law said the same for the F-111, F-106 and B-1B but that was due to aircraft already having excess thrust close to VNE


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 5, 2021)

special ed said:


> Okay, you made me get the book down and look for the countries that supplied the MiGs. I must have pulled most bookmarks, but while looking I came across this quote: "We never had a good supply of engines, [He's talking about MiG 23] and I don't think we ever got more than about 30 hours on a motor before we had to pull it and rebuild it. We operated ten Floggers and on our best day we probably had six running; it was usually three or four. *The problem with the Flogger was also that you had to pull the plane in half to get to the engine in or out.* I would walk into a hangar and see up to seven of our ten broken in half, and would ask myself, how many more times are we going to be able to put them together without someone making a mistake? "
> That is from Red Eagles



This is typical for most MiGs I've been around (15, 17, 19, 21). Don't know about the MiG-25. If you have the manpower and the right tooling they actually come apart pretty easy. L29 and L39, same thing.


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## ARTESH (Jun 5, 2021)

The Basket said:


> If the Flogger was Egyptian then I would expect Egyptian pilots who are trained on Flogger.



One of Iraqi planes shot down in early days of Iran - Iraq war, Was Egyptian. He was recorded as "MiG Pilot, Captain, 35 years Old, Egyptian Air Force". Flogger or Fishbed Pilot, no info.

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## J_P_C (Jun 6, 2021)

The Basket said:


> If the Flogger was Egyptian then I would expect Egyptian pilots who are trained on Flogger.
> 
> A pilot will tell you the full story. It's true capability and the weakness and strength. Plus use of radar and the missile envelope.
> 
> ...


 - duration of this experience will be quite limited with 90kg/s fuel consumption in such case D

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## J_P_C (Jun 6, 2021)

special ed said:


> Okay, you made me get the book down and look for the countries that supplied the MiGs. I must have pulled most bookmarks, but while looking I came across this quote: "We never had a good supply of engines, [He's talking about MiG 23] and I don't think we ever got more than about 30 hours on a motor before we had to pull it and rebuild it. We operated ten Floggers and on our best day we probably had six running; it was usually three or four. The problem with the Flogger was also that you had to pull the plane in half to get to the engine in or out. I would walk into a hangar and see up to seven of our ten broken in half, and would ask myself, how many more times are we going to be able to put them together without someone making a mistake? "
> That is from Red Eagles


well - this is something about technical culture - in Poland normally we had no problems with premature engine removal and we easily reached 300 hours between engine overhauls as it was stated in manuals, of course we had malfunctions - most significant were cracks in combustors, and yes - spare engine were problem because -23 was treated as a non-standard equipment and maintenance base for this type we had in country was not sufficient - nearest engine overhaul shop was somewhere on Ukraine... And engine swap was not big problem you may do this within 4 hours with well trained crew and with all needed tools, GSE, spares and consumables in hand.

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## The Basket (Jun 6, 2021)

J_P_C said:


> well - this is something about technical culture - in Poland normally we had no problems with premature engine removal and we easily reached 300 hours between engine overhauls as it was stated in manuals, of course we had malfunctions - most significant were cracks in combustors, and yes - spare engine were problem because -23 was treated as a non-standard equipment and maintenance base for this type we had in country was not sufficient - nearest engine overhaul shop was somewhere on Ukraine... And engine swap was not big problem you may do this within 4 hours with well trained crew and with all needed tools, GSE, spares and consumables in hand.


Do you have any details on the Flogger in Polish service?

Was it liked or disliked.


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## special ed (Jun 6, 2021)

One of the comments in "Red Eagles" was an account of an encounter in which the MiG 23 entered a spin, followed by engine failure. The pilot, rather than lose one of the valuable MiGs, elected to dead stick it in, and did so without additional damage. The fuselage had been twisted in the spin causing the engine fan to contact structure. A question for J_P_C: How often did spins occur and with what damage. I suspect Biff would enjoy this book as there were many sessions of various MiGs with F-15s

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## The Basket (Jun 6, 2021)

A few issues with the Flogger that I am aware of.

If the wings are stuck in the full Swept back then it's eject. No attempt to land.

The Flogger has different handling character depends on wing sweep so you would need to know 3 airplanes rather than one.

One comment that I have read is that the landing and take off is pretty ok and give false hope!

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## special ed (Jun 6, 2021)

Details in the book indicate the three wing positions were controlled by the pilot with a manual control while the F-14s had a slight advantage as their wing sweep was changing automatically by conditions on the aircraft. One of the things I learned from the book was the vertical white stripe from the top of the instrument panel to the bottom was to aid the pilot to center the stick if in a spin or other diversion from normal flight. Center the stick and wait, it will correct itself. I assume if you have altitude. When I learned about the white stripe, I have seen it personally in two MiG 17s and in museum cockpit photos of 17s, 19s, and 23s.


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## The Basket (Jun 6, 2021)

I wonder if you could go mach 2 then swing the wings fully forward.

That would be pure hilarity.

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## The Basket (Jun 6, 2021)

And because you said white stripe I have now got seven nation army in my head.

Sigh.

Duh duh duh duh duh duh duh.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Jun 6, 2021)

The Basket said:


> I wonder if you could go mach 2 then swing the wings fully forward.
> 
> That would be pure hilarity.



Maybe so, if you were Biffffff Armstrong, Esq. You thought cranking up the gear on a Wildcat was tough, good golly!


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## J_P_C (Jun 7, 2021)

The Basket said:


> Do you have any details on the Flogger in Polish service?
> 
> Was it liked or disliked.


I think so - ive spend couple years of my career serving with 28th fighter regiment - only unit in PAF equipped with this type.

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## J_P_C (Jun 7, 2021)

The Basket said:


> I wonder if you could go mach 2 then swing the wings fully forward.
> 
> That would be pure hilarity.


 - fortunately you can't - physics prevent you from such experiment - or, to be more precise physics will end such experiment before you will reach even 1.2Ma  - but the end will be spectacular for sure

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## J_P_C (Jun 7, 2021)

special ed said:


> One of the comments in "Red Eagles" was an account of an encounter in which the MiG 23 entered a spin, followed by engine failure. The pilot, rather than lose one of the valuable MiGs, elected to dead stick it in, and did so without additional damage. The fuselage had been twisted in the spin causing the engine fan to contact structure. A question for J_P_C: How often did spins occur and with what damage. I suspect Biff would enjoy this book as there were many sessions of various MiGs with F-15s


we have lost 0 airplanes due to spin

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## J_P_C (Jun 7, 2021)

special ed said:


> Details in the book indicate the three wing positions were controlled by the pilot with a manual control while the F-14s had a slight advantage as their wing sweep was changing automatically by conditions on the aircraft. One of the things I learned from the book was the vertical white stripe from the top of the instrument panel to the bottom was to aid the pilot to center the stick if in a spin or other diversion from normal flight. Center the stick and wait, it will correct itself. I assume if you have altitude. When I learned about the white stripe, I have seen it personally in two MiG 17s and in museum cockpit photos of 17s, 19s, and 23s.


considering design of wing swept mechanism i would say wing stuck is highly unlikely - especially in 72deg position when forces acting on elements of swept mechanism are in their lowest magnitude.... white strip has come from conclusions from Soviet space program - they noticed that such feature helps to regain spatial awareness after heavy aerobatics - well, true or not -23 had vertical white stripe across instrument desk but other Soviet made types have not (it must be science in the kind of radiation resistant paint from soviet arsenal )

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## The Basket (Jun 7, 2021)

If I remember rightly it was an Iraqi pilot giving an interview. He said about the wings swept back being an eject.

The Flogger was a by the numbers aircraft and in the Polish or other warpac countries, the Flogger would have been the gold medal until the Fulcrum appeared. So the Flogger pilots would have been considered the top fighter squadron of that air force.

Did the Polish pilot like the Flogger?
1 quote I read that they quickly realized that the Flogger is a energy fighter and not a turn and roll. So slash and grab.


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## J_P_C (Jun 7, 2021)

The Basket said:


> If I remember rightly it was an Iraqi pilot giving an interview. He said about the wings swept back being an eject.
> 
> The Flogger was a by the numbers aircraft and in the Polish or other warpac countries, the Flogger would have been the gold medal until the Fulcrum appeared. So the Flogger pilots would have been considered the top fighter squadron of that air force.
> 
> ...


from my conversation with pilots i would say their view of this airplane was mixed, some of them liked this airplane some of them not. From engineering perspective i can confirm that -23 was rugged and reliable design but in a years 1990s hopelessly outdated in the field of avionics. And this is the main source of mixed pilots feelings - workload for the pilot was simply too high - it was something like newer version of P-38 Lightning, incredible airplane but usually pilot was too busy flying them to be ready for fight. Interesting catch i made, was that most of the pilots who liked this airplane have been very, very professional and it was easy to work with them for me as an engineer.

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## The Basket (Jun 7, 2021)

Do you believe the MiG-23 was a more advanced airplane than the MiG-21? Was it ahead of the Fishbed in terms of automation?

I did read the Flogger had more knobs and doodads than a cathedral organ and so you had to fly the airplane and be ahead of the airplane. You didn't want to lose control cos once she goes she ain't getting back.

Flying it was a full time job and so actually dogfighting in one must have been a nightmare. Although the benign land and take off character probably saved many a pilot.


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## J_P_C (Jun 7, 2021)

The Basket said:


> Do you believe the MiG-23 was a more advanced airplane than the MiG-21? Was it ahead of the Fishbed in terms of automation?
> 
> I did read the Flogger had more knobs and doodads than a cathedral organ and so you had to fly the airplane and be ahead of the airplane. You didn't want to lose control cos once she goes she ain't getting back.
> 
> Flying it was a full time job and so actually dogfighting in one must have been a nightmare. Although the benign land and take off character probably saved many a pilot.



Mig-23 was a step change over -21 but mainly in a term of possible tactics. 4 hour endurance is a magnitude change over slightly less than 1hour. R-60 was/is missile with performance quantum leap vs. R-3/K-13 from -21 arsenal (i'm not even mentioning RS-2US), and -23 have medium range option in a form of R23/24 missiles. EOS system also giving significant edge over -21. Next in line is engine performance. Radar had range at least 2x bigger than this one on MiG-21 (independent of version). In PAF -21 nickname was nail vs. -23 named simply super nail  - i think somehow it is reflecting reality. Of course last version of MiG-21Bis is making whole comparison less obvious .

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## The Basket (Jun 7, 2021)

I would assume the Flogger would have got helmet mounted sight and better radar and R-73 Archer and R-27 and maybe new engine blah blah blah which would have been quite a fighter.

I would assume that would have been case had WarPac carried on.

Was the Polish Flogger equal to the Soviet Floggers? What About Czech or DDR or Hungarian?

Was the Fulcrum replacing the Flogger? And was the Su-27 offered to Poland?


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## J_P_C (Jun 8, 2021)

The Basket said:


> I would assume the Flogger would have got helmet mounted sight and better radar and R-73 Archer and R-27 and maybe new engine blah blah blah which would have been quite a fighter.
> 
> I would assume that would have been case had WarPac carried on.
> 
> ...


upgrades described by you have been done for Mig-23-98 - two of them has been build through modification of MLD version airplanes - but Russians never found customers for this instead they rather rapidly removed -23 from inventory.
Polish Flogger was 17 and 21 production batches units in export variant - Soviets always treated Poland as "high risk allay (shoot before use)" none of equipment issued to us from USSR was in configuration even close to this Soviets keep for them Czech and Hungary was treated in pretty similar way (outer ring of trust ) as Poland. As far as i know DDR (yes the story that they have been more communist than Soviets is real one - Germans have tendency to perfect everything including crappy ideology ) have received airplanes close to or in Soviet standard, and i think Bulgaria was treated similar to DDR. 
Su-27 from very beginning was treated by Russians/Soviets as a prime equipment. When they have started selling MiG29 across WP Su-27 has been kept in deep shadow of secrecy. When everybody learned about this airplane WP has been freshly gone and everybody enjoyed short break from serious military spending. After everybody realized that war is still in fashion and even more acceptable way of doing business than was before, arms market in Central/East Europe have been closed for Russians and in possession of Uncle Sam - at least this part of history looks this way in my personal opinion.

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## The Basket (Jun 8, 2021)

It would have been a shame to make war on our Polish brothers.

Would the Poles have fought willingly for WarPac or would they have turned the moment they had the chance? The Poles I have spoken to have had no love for USSR or the communist era.

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## J_P_C (Jun 8, 2021)

The Basket said:


> It would have been a shame to make war on our Polish brothers.
> 
> Would the Poles have fought willingly for WarPac or would they have turned the moment they had the chance? The Poles I have spoken to have had no love for USSR or the communist era.


Hard to answer on your question - when napalm and Rockeyes are falling on your head it is little time for ideology. Soviets have solved this problem with idea that Polish Army in a case of conventional war will be acted on secondary strategic direction independently (less chance for sudden switch of side). In their strategic plans our target was Denmark. 28th fighter regiment only purpose in a case of war was to try take out AWACS orbiting somewhere between Bornholm and Danish Islands. Per our calculations it was one way mission - we didn't expected that will be second day of war for us, if so rather as foot infantry than Air Force. Fortunately for me i know all this only from the stories told by my mates. I've started my university and have been commissioned in times when we just switch colors of pencils - for me blue force always been friendly and reds not as much.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Jun 8, 2021)

I'm really enjoying this conversation.

Did your squadron encounter and escort NATO planes while either you or they were on patrol? Do you have any insights or anecdotes about that?

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## J_P_C (Jun 9, 2021)

28th regiment base was Slupsk- Redzikowo - just 1 minute flying time from Baltic sea coast. Encounters over the sea were rather on daily basis. Later i've been transferred to the Squadron under Navy command and part of my job were flight engineer duties. Meetings over the sea with allies and "not as much allies" are sometimes funny experience - well with exception of Russians - their sense of humor is not existent - at least in air.
I have couple stories, both heard from others and from personal experiences - but things like this are marked as a "beer required" .....

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## The Basket (Jun 9, 2021)

If you say the Soviets didn't trust the Poles then why give em MiGs in the first place?

The Poles did get the Fulcrum during the communist era.

What was the communist era like for you? Did you feel any different in the modern era? How free were you or did you feel?

I would have to assume the Polish secret police were less fanatic than the DDR.


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## J_P_C (Jun 9, 2021)

Soviets have give to Poland nothing - they sold us military equipment with price tag only slightly lower than Uncle Sam is charging us now (relatively). And they never sold to Poland prime class equipment. What they sold to us always have been in "WP standard tier II". Tier I equipment have been sold to DDR, Bulgaria sometimes to Czech rarely to Hungary. MiG-29 have been delivered to us in lowest possible manufacturing standard and i think we have been last recipient of this hardware.
I always thought that polish version of communism was fake one, SB (secret police) in 1970s and 80s wasn't as effective like their East German or Soviet collogues - that was reason why we have finally had Solidarity and all this mess with collapsing eastern block. Worth to realize that all this happened in the way that couple guys have sit at the same table, talked and agreed that this kind of life is part of past from this moment onward. 
My life under communism was great - i have loving family, health and i've been young. Ladies here are beautiful - would you expect more? I always keep away from politics - funny story with this -once time May 1st - we had parades in every city - for teenagers participation was generally obligatory. In my school ive been only person who wasn't member of one official organization - you can imagine all this folks with red banners marching across city - and break - "now young peoples not associated but supporting us" - and it was me with white-red national flag.... Next 6 months my dad have told this to his friends as a joke story.....
From this i've learned that keeping sense of humor even in worst situation creating "bright side of life" like in Monthy Python's song.

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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 9, 2021)

J_P_C said:


> Soviets have give to Poland nothing - they sold us military equipment with price tag only slightly lower than Uncle Sam is charging us now (relatively). And they never sold to Poland prime class equipment. What they sold to us always have been in "WP standard tier II". Tier I equipment have been sold to DDR, Bulgaria sometimes to Czech rarely to Hungary. MiG-29 have been delivered to us in lowest possible manufacturing standard and i think we have been last recipient of this hardware.
> I always thought that polish version of communism was fake one, SB (secret police) in 1970s and 80s wasn't as effective like their East German or Soviet collogues - that was reason why we have finally had Solidarity and all this mess with collapsing eastern block. Worth to realize that all this happened in the way that couple guys have sit at the same table, talked and agreed that this kind of life is part of past from this moment onward.
> My life under communism was great - i have loving family, health and i've been young. Ladies here are beautiful - would you expect more? I always keep away from politics - funny story with this -once time May 1st - we had parades in every city - for teenagers participation was generally obligatory. In my school ive been only person who wasn't member of one official organization - you can imagine all this folks with red banners marching across city - and break - "now young peoples not associated but supporting us" - and it was me with white-red national flag.... Next 6 months my dad have told this to his friends as a joke story.....
> From this i've learned that keeping sense of humor even in worst situation creating "bright side of life" like in Monthy Python's song.



Great information and thank you for sharing! It seems like today (at least from what I've seen here on US News) that the Polish people are very supportive of the US. I believe Poland was one of the few nations that supported the US in Iraq.

On another note - after the Solidary movement and the break from the Soviet camp, were you still serving when Poland picked up US equipment? I've worked on East Bloc equipment in the US (L29s, L39s, Iskras, MiG-15 UTI, MiG-17, MiG-21) and found them real easy to work on when we had the right tools and manpower to move things around.


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## J_P_C (Jun 9, 2021)

Yes i've terminated my service in 2004 - we have been already part of NATO. Next 15 years i've spend working for GE, since two years i'm trying to organize my life slightly different way. Right now i'm working under my own brand providing engineering services - mainly designing specialized machines and building prototypes of whatever i've designed for different customers. Iskra was airplane i had plenty maintenance experiences of , also with Mig-23, An-28/M-28, and some with Su-22, Mig-29, Mig-21 Mi-2 and W-3 helicopters.

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## The Basket (Jun 9, 2021)

What info did you have about the west?

We all lived in mansions and drove Cadillacs?

My view of Communist Poland would have been black and white with belching smoke factories and families eating turnips. Constant grey. Driving FSOs....

I did visit Romania in 1984....the year I visited wasn't a good sign. Mamia which I now believe to be a Russian spa town. It was truly odd. Like a jigsaw missing a piece or a itch you couldn't scratch. It was a nice place but not for me.

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## J_P_C (Jun 10, 2021)

We haven't been as much separated from the west as party leaders could wish. Many Polish companies have sold services to the west those days (even all serious industry was state owned) and not much have change in this matter - our economy is closely bonded (good for us) to the surrounding world , especially remaining part of EU. Answering on your question - we had pretty much good idea how life on the west looks like - from other hand, difference in standard of living was astonishing - big enough that for many peoples life of beggar in Hamburg was serious dream not mentioning about 18 hours shifts in factory located in Chicago. Even after joining to EU living standard improved significantly we still have serious difference. To illustrate this - my wage when i've worked for GE (was god one in local conditions) it was about 40-50% of this what GE is paying to engineer on the same position in US - not even mentioning difference in taxes.

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## The Basket (Jun 10, 2021)

My visit to Romania was an eye opener.

It started badly when our airplane was a 4 prop job that looked like a WW2 bomber. Holy Jesus what is that? What the hell is that! It was an Il-18 but talk about asking the rear gunner for the time.

Food was pretty bad. Powercuts were frequent which made taking the lift a dodgy affair.

There was a dollar shop in the hotel which was full of garish garbage like weird looking dolls But mainly you could buy basic items that you would find in any corner shop in England. Coca Cola or chocolate or basic toiletries. Nothing fancy.

The currency was difficult because you couldn't exchange it back so you only could take what was needed. Although the locals were more than happy to exchange currency at a much higher rate! So selling old adidas trainers for a bit of cash.

We all were fed up and couldn't get back to the airport quick enough. But it sticks in the memory and that's for sure. But it was certainly a look at the other side of the mirror and however bad England was in the 80s it was a damn sight better than Romania and that no lie.

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## J_P_C (Jun 12, 2021)

During communist's times Poland, in a term of standard of living, was a two steps fwd in compare to Romania. Just two steps and as much as two steps. Romania was slightly separated from remaining part of WP due to fact that Causescu disliked Soviet version of internal politics as a "too soft" - hard to imagine this but in results he have been executed together with his family by his own army.  - you have been pretty unlucky that you visited almost worst part of Eastern block when it exist - well always it can be worst you may landed in Albania...

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## The Basket (Jun 12, 2021)

Romania was ok cos of sunshine. As a tourist attraction it was pretty bad but if you're the adventurous camping type, it would have been a laugh.

Visiting a communist country has a magic potion like quality of suddenly thinking communism sucks.

And they shot Ceaușescu at first opportunity. Go figure.

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## Steve Hnz (Jun 14, 2021)

Interesting thread gentlemen, on many levels, a good insight into the Mig-23 & the capabilities of various other aircraft & some superb insights into life at a previous time from J_P_C. Many thanks.
The closest I ever came to the Eastern Bloc was driving coach tours in Europe in the early 80s, we visited Bulgaria & the then Yugoslavia as we returned from Istanbul. Those brief glimpses were enough for most of the Aussies & Kiwis we had on board. Had I done another year I'd have likely got a trip to the USSR, Poland & East Germany, maybe it would have been worth doing that.


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