# Greatest Fighter Pilot in World War II..... UPDATED



## lesofprimus (Jan 10, 2005)

Ok... Here we go sportsfans....

Heres alittle juice on each guy....

1 ) Hiroyoshi Nishizawa JAP, 87 Kills, Claimed 184 Kills
2 ) James Johnson British, 38 Kills, Leading British Ace
3 ) Dick Bong USA, 40 Kills, Leading American Ace
4 ) Thomas McGuire USA, 38 Kills, Runner Up
5 ) Ivan Kozhedub USSR, 62 Kills, Allied Leading Ace
6 ) Georg-Peter Eder 78 Kills, 10 X P-47's, 7 X P-51's, 3 X P-38's, 36 X Bombers, 55 American Kills, 24 X Kills in an Me-262....
7 ) Adolf Galland 104 Kills, 50 X Spits, 7 Kills in Me-262....
8 ) Erich Rudorffer 224 Kills, 40 X Spits, 58 X IL2's, 10 X Bombers (86 Kills West, 138 Kills East) 12 Kills in an Me-262......
9 ) Heinz Bar 221 Kills, 10 X P-51's, 10 X P-47's, 4 x P-38's, 21 x Bombers(125 kills West, 96 Kills East) 52 American Kills....
10 ) Heinz Schnaufer 121 NightFighter Kills, 114 X Bombers 
11 ) Josef Priller 101 Kills, 69 X Spits, 11 X Bombers 
12 ) Erich Hartmann 352 Kills, 6 X P-51's, 30 x IL2's
13 ) Walter Nowotny 259 Kills, 24 X IL2's, 3 Kills in Me-262......
14 ) Heinrich Bartels 99 Kills, 14 X P-38's, 11 X P-51's, 9 X P-47's 
15 ) Hans Marseille 158 Kills, 20 X Spits, A total of 17 aircraft shot down on this day...
01 Sep 42....... Victories 105 thru 121.......	
Times of Each Kill:
0828, 0830, 0833, 0839, 1055, 1056, 1058, 1059, 1101, 1102, 1103, 1105, 1846, 1847, 1848, 1849, 1853.........


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 10, 2005)

"Jochi," again.


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 10, 2005)

I'm sticking with Marseille because of the quality of his targets and his incredible marksmanship.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 11, 2005)

I voted for Ivan Kozhedub, as I always do.... Under unbelievable odds, the man shot down more planes than any Allied pilot... 

In an inferior plane....

During WWII, Kozhedub flew 326 combat missions, took part in 126 aerial combats, and achieved 62 kills (22 X FW 190's and 18 X Ju 87's).... The planes he flew were La-5 FN La-7 fighters......

During the Korean War, he displayed exceptional leadership, his unit claiming 207 U.N. aircraft destroyed for the loss of 27 MiG-15's in combat and 9 pilots...... He later rose to Air Marshal and was assigned as an Inspector of the Soviet Ministry of Defense.... 

He was awarded with The Lenin Order (three times), The Red Banner Order (seven times), and The Red Star Order (twice)........


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 11, 2005)

Im gonna Vote Priller...


Damn im off for a nap, i feel like shit...


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## Erich (Jan 11, 2005)

Rudorffer's kills are suspect. Priller took a command position, Marseille was killed to early in his life so he should not be up there, as there is no way we could tell what his socre could of been in the defence of the Reich.

Ivan of course is the definate for the Soviets.

Schnaufer I could conceivably see with his scoring but that is about it as there some unknown that were quite good and night combat.

Still think Bär is the man due to his service on both fronts, his amount of kills and his knack of superior flying inseveral types of a/c


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## plan_D (Jan 11, 2005)

Kozhedub, was he the one who got jumped by two Mustangs while in a La-7 and shot them both down or chased them off?


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 11, 2005)

I read about a Russian pilot flying a P-39 (I dont know who) but he got jumped by 6 109's, shot down 2 and scared the otheres off...incredible...


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 11, 2005)

I'm not sure I would classify the La-5 and -7 as inferior fighters. I consider them to be the best the Soviets produced.


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## Darkstalker (Jan 12, 2005)

I voted for Galland and would also will vote for Nowotny because i think both of them were some of the best pilots germany had, also were skilled, intrepid, fearless and they designed tactics for the 262.
Also they were part of the most valuable Luftwaffe's squads.
They we honored by flying them because of their amazing records flying almost any fighter the Lutwaffe had.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 12, 2005)

I voted Marseille as well. He was truly an incredible fighter pilot and, had he lived, would have given 'Bubi' Hartmann a run for his money as top ace.
No doubt!


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## lesofprimus (Jan 12, 2005)

> Kozhedub, was he the one who got jumped by two Mustangs while in a La-7 and shot them both down or chased them off?


Yes it was Kozhedub, and he shot both of them down....


> I read about a Russian pilot flying a P-39 (I dont know who) but he got jumped by 6 109's, shot down 2 and scared the otheres off...incredible...


I read something similar about that as well.... There were many acts like that.... Ill see what i can come up with...


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## plan_D (Jan 12, 2005)

I'm voting for Kozhedub then. Did he put stars on his plane then?


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## Erich (Jan 12, 2005)

friends please check the painting by Jerry Crandall of Ivan's a/c when he downed the Me 262.

www.eagle-editions.com

wil have to get on the site by clicking the P-47 razorback and then go to aviation prints. go though slowly and you will find Ivan's sharp looking painting. I have seen one of these back in ? 1992, incredible close-up as the scan does not do any of Jerry's work justice.

two centos


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## Darkstalker (Jan 12, 2005)

I agree with lesofprimus
Marseille was a great pilot and he was rising his potential when he died.
If he had survived the war he surely would be the best pilot in Germany.


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## Erich (Jan 13, 2005)

although he was the Stern of Afrika you are gestimating at Marseilles possible rise till war's end. There is at least a 50 to 85 % he would of been killed in action with P-51's,. I've done a pretty intense research on all the gruppen of Jg 27 from 1944 till war's end, and can tell you that it was quite a rarity for any of the Alte Hase to survive through the fall of 1944 having been in JG 27 sicne Russia and Afrika. Jg 27 was bascially wiped out several times during the Reichsverteidigung

v/r

♪


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 13, 2005)

But the fact remains that he was facing tougher opposition than many of his Eastern Front colleagues and 154 of his 158 victories were over enemy fighters. 17 in one day is incredible. And the situations surrounding his kills are just as impressive. Just as impressive, in my estimation, is the fact that he twice risked AA fire just to drop a note containing information on a British pilot he had shot down.


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## Anonymous (Jan 13, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> > Kozhedub, was he the one who got jumped by two Mustangs while in a La-7 and shot them both down or chased them off?
> 
> 
> Yes it was Kozhedub, and he shot both of them down....
> ...



I still have to wonder if they indeed bounced him, or he bounced them and this was the cover story. We are only hearing one side of it and they had soooooo much motive to lie about the incident I cannot really consider it credible. I'd love to see guncam footage on this one.

=S=

Lunatic


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## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

Is that because you believe an American can't do wrong? It's the Soviet that was in the wrong, never the American.


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## Erich (Jan 13, 2005)

LG, Marseille's multiple scores of 17 on one day are not cross checked with the RAF group that he and his buddies tangled with. they are not confirmed. Marseille as with 9/10's of JG 27 would of been shot down if not killed during 1944...............period


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 13, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> > Kozhedub, was he the one who got jumped by two Mustangs while in a La-7 and shot them both down or chased them off?
> 
> 
> Yes it was Kozhedub, and he shot both of them down....
> ...



Dont worry,ive found it...you posted a threa don it a while back...

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496&start=0&sid=d1f1a90f9b8fdf3ea050c2d55c01d20b

8)


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## Adolf Galland (Jan 13, 2005)

Ummmmm... I think that Galland made 104 kills, not 103...


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## Adolf Galland (Jan 13, 2005)

Erich Hartmann got 352 kills because he had been fighting on the Eastern Front, and Russian aircraft suck. (and so do their pilots, and by the way I'm just trying to point out a fact...)


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## lesofprimus (Jan 13, 2005)

You are right about Galland kills.. A typo on my part.. Thx for pointing that out...... Ill fix it.....


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 13, 2005)

You have to be careful about making those kind of statements about 'Bubi' since he did not scoring kills immediately. Many of his victories were over quality planes and pilots.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 14, 2005)

Russian planes may not have been the best, granted, but they werent too bad. I think their pilots were amazing though, managing to get the best out of poor machinery (Kozhedub and Pokryshin for example).


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## Anonymous (Jan 14, 2005)

plan_D said:


> Is that because you believe an American can't do wrong? It's the Soviet that was in the wrong, never the American.



Not at all. I am always suspicous of one sided accounts of this nature.


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## plan_D (Jan 14, 2005)

Sure, okay. 

The Soviet pilots weren't good, CC. Only a few come to light as being any good, most of the VVS were poorly trained.


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## bomber1956 (Jan 14, 2005)

well I was nearly converted to Baer due to his all round record, but he was shot down 18 times with lots of damage to his own frame. So Hartmann it is as, 1. He didnt get killed! and 2. He didnt get hurt. (I dont think). I dont know how often he was shot down, and surely best pilot must be ratio of kills to being shot down yourself.


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## Erich (Jan 14, 2005)

again it has been pointed out what type of opposition was agasint the German pilot. Bär fought them all and lived. He is # 1. Geez think about it, fighters from the Allies/Soviets as well as chasing down twin and 4 engine bombers. No crap pilots here guyz.............


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## Anonymous (Jan 14, 2005)

plan_D said:


> Sure, okay.
> 
> The Soviet pilots weren't good, CC. Only a few come to light as being any good, most of the VVS were poorly trained.



I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is, suppose this pilot attacked and shot down two P-51's thinking they were 109's (a common mistake even for USAAF pilots). He gets back to his base and they check the guncam footage (by this point the Soviet pilots had guncams) and sees they were P-51's. What are the Soviet's going to say?

It certainly could have happened the way it is reported, but without some verification it's just a one sided story.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 14, 2005)

> and sees they were P-51's. What are the Soviet's going to say?



Erm, that they are in good stead for WW2's sequel: The Cold War?


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## Darkstalker (Jan 15, 2005)

But in the other side many german pilots were flying planes that were considered old (and many of them were) against allied fighters.
This planes were redisgined to match the newly and usually developed and fixed faster than the luftwaffe.
Even facing these problems many german pilots were a match for the allied pilots and their powerful and updated planes.


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## Darkstalker (Jan 15, 2005)

Many of them scored a lot of victories against the Soviets, but this does not mean the soviets were bad pilots, at the beginning of the war maybe, but after Stalingrad, the soviet army and air forces were experiencied and were a match for the Lufwaffe.
In that time the Luftwaffe had lost control over the Russian skies and had little to oposse to the Soviets, and the germans were still shooting down planes with though pilots in the cockpits.
So this made german pilots to be prepared for what lied ahead on the western front and to be victorious in several times.


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## Darkstalker (Jan 15, 2005)

Even when they were outnumbered and knew it was almost impossible to do what they were ordered to do specially after D-Day, when the allies started to control Europe's skies, this pilots fought bravely and shot down a lot of allied planes.
I think the need of surviving, the lack of resources and knowing that they were only a hope to stop for a while Germany's defeat ( or contributing for victory in the beginning of war) made this men truly skilled and aware to make all what were on their hands against the allied superiority.


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## plan_D (Jan 15, 2005)

Yeah, RG. I don't think the Soviets would be too bothered, really. We all know they were only on each others side because there was a common enemy


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## Anonymous (Jan 16, 2005)

I agree. But if they suspected the US might have somehow known it was a Soviet fighter that downed those two P-51's they'd want to have some kind of story for it right?


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 16, 2005)

Friendly fire was fairly common in WWII. So they shot down a couple of our fighters. We strafed one of their convoys and killed a general.


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## Anonymous (Jan 16, 2005)

Lightning Guy said:


> Friendly fire was fairly common in WWII. So they shot down a couple of our fighters. We strafed one of their convoys and killed a general.



That is not the issue LG, it's the report by the Soviet pilot that the two P-51's attacked him and would not back off so he had to shoot them both down. I'm not saying it's impossible this happened, just that we only have his word that's what happened, and given the circumstances it's highly suspect.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Hot Space (Jan 16, 2005)

I would of voted for Gunter Rall, but he's not here, so I went for Marseille instead 8) 

Hot Space


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 16, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> Russian planes may not have been the best, granted, but they werent too bad. I think their pilots were amazing though, managing to get the best out of poor machinery (Kozhedub and Pokryshin for example).




Nah, just Pokryshin...


The La-5/7's were amazing, they were a bit like the Zero down low, due to their great turning...


Except for one thing, the La series was actually fast throughout the war, unlike the bloody Zero, which they only started revamping it at the end!

Also, the La-7's optional three B20 20mm cannons are powerful, as well as concentrated to make kills come a lot easier...


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## lesofprimus (Jan 16, 2005)

Good point's GrG... Kozhedub never flew a P-39 CC.....

I do believe tho that the Russian Aircraft were inferior to the Germans on the ETO, but, thats not saying that the La-5/7 and the Yak-3/9 were crap..... They were good fighters....

Just that there were many inexperienced Russian pilots flying those fighters that never knew what hit em when Bar or Rall come sweeping outta the sky and burst ur fuel tank with 85 rounds......

Boom...... Your dead... Another tally for Hartmanns rudder.....

There were a handful of solid pilots in Russia that stayed alive for more than 20 sorties.... These guys became their top aces.....There are not alot of Russian aces compared to the # of German Aces on the ETO..... #'s dont lie in this case....


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## Anonymous (Jan 16, 2005)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> Also, the La-7's optional three B20 20mm cannons are powerful, as well as concentrated to make kills come a lot easier...



The B-20 armament was not "optional". These guns came into operations only very late in the war, and were in short supply. The La7-FNV was armed with them in about Feb. 1945 IIRC, and there were about 377 of these planes, almost all (if not all) of them assigned to Stalin's gaurd protecting Stalingrad and Moscow (which were no longer subject to Luftwaffe' attack). It is questionable if any saw combat action in WWII, and if they did, it was probably only a few used for combat evaluation.

Realistically, the La7-FN was the WWII La7, and it was armed with 2 x ShVAK 20mm cannon with 200 rpg (as opposed to 150 rpg on the B20's) and a slightly weaker engine (1 min of WEP used for takeoff). It was still an excellent fighter.

=S=

Lunatic


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## BigEd (Jan 18, 2005)

Eino Juutilainen should be nominated as the best pilot of WWI. Why? He had 94 ariel victories, 34 of them in the Brewester Buffalo (export model, which was worse that the one the US Navy used). The rest of his victories was in the German Bf109. Throught his career, his aircraft was never touched by a bullet or fragment in any air-to-air engagement. This is a very remarkable feat, considering the conditions under which he was flying. 8) 

http://www.au.af.mil/au/goe/eaglebios/84bios/juutil84.htm


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 18, 2005)

it had to engage the WEP for take off??


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## Anonymous (Jan 18, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> it had to engage the WEP for take off??



I don't know if "had to" is apporporiate, but that was the only place the -FN version is listed as having used its max power setting. It was limited to 1 minute at takeoff.

Remember, Soviets took off from short fields of poor quality, so a short takeoff was very important.

=S=

Lunatic


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 19, 2005)

the lyslander didn't have to engage WEP (ok so it didn't have any...) for take off over short distances, muct be because it's british..............


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## plan_D (Jan 19, 2005)

You'd at least spell it right, Lysander. Did you know they used them as bombers in Burma?


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Bomb load was rather light though, wasn't it?


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## plan_D (Jan 19, 2005)

In the region of 600 lbs, extremely light bombers. They achieved some minor successes, and those 4 squadrons during Fall Gelb achieved some amazing success. Amazing success to say they were in Lysanders, one shot down a Hs 126 while his gunner shot down a Stuka. Some were credited with 109 kills.  

http://www.wwiitechpubs.info/hangar...d-lysander/ac-uk-ac-westland-lysander-br.html


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## Anonymous (Jan 19, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> the lyslander didn't have to engage WEP (ok so it didn't have any...) for take off over short distances, muct be because it's british..............



That's just a silly comment. Make the runway short enough and it would... or w/o WEP it would not take off.

Most planes did not use WEP to take off. But most planes of a similar weight could not take off from fields as short as those the La7 could.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 20, 2005)

BigEd said:


> Eino Juutilainen should be nominated as the best pilot of WWI. Why? He had 94 ariel victories, 34 of them in the Brewester Buffalo (export model, which was worse that the one the US Navy used). The rest of his victories was in the German Bf109. Throught his career, his aircraft was never touched by a bullet or fragment in any air-to-air engagement. This is a very remarkable feat, considering the conditions under which he was flying. 8)
> 
> http://www.au.af.mil/au/goe/eaglebios/84bios/juutil84.htm




Actually, the B-239 was WORLDS better than the F2A-2...


Reflector sight, better armament, more range, more powerful engine.


Whats worse about it?


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## Porco14 (Jan 21, 2005)

Regarding Kozhedub's skirmish with P-51s.

Here is gun camera with two downed P-51s. The book I took it from tells that one of mustang pilots bailed out and later said that they mistook La-7 for "FW-190 with red nose" and opened fire from the long distance.







The second pic shows Kozhedub with fellow pilots in Andun, Korea, 1951. Left to right: B. Abakumov (5 kills), B. Bokach (8 kills), I. Kozhedub, F. Shebanov (6 kills), B. Nazarkin. Kozhedub did not fly himself in Korea, at least officially.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 21, 2005)

RG_Lunatic said:


> the lancaster kicks ass said:
> 
> 
> > the lyslander didn't have to engage WEP (ok so it didn't have any...) for take off over short distances, muct be because it's british..............
> ...



dude learn to take a joke and some british humour.............


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## plan_D (Jan 21, 2005)

Brilliant, Porco. There you go, America did wrong and got punished for it.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 22, 2005)

Great shot Porco. I had seen that pic before, but have been unable to find a copy on the internet.. THX!!!!!!


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## Anonymous (Jan 22, 2005)

Porco14 said:


> Regarding Kozhedub's skirmish with P-51s.
> 
> Here is gun camera with two downed P-51s. The book I took it from tells that one of mustang pilots bailed out and later said that they mistook La-7 for "FW-190 with red nose" and opened fire from the long distance.
> 
> ...



Hmm.. I'd read that both P-51 pilots were killed. Very interesting, I will have to research this a bit more. But you must admit the first shot looks like a classic bounce attack right out of the sun. Given this position and angle, surely the La7 pilot knew these were not German planes, so why didn't he just exit the fight?

Hell... both these P-51's still have their drop tanks on! As far as i'm concerned that totally confirms my suspsicion. The story that they pursued him and would not back off is a lie - P-51's with drop tanks could not possibly keep up with an La7!


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## Porco14 (Jan 24, 2005)

The story goes like that: Kozhedub saw FW-190 near lone B-17 and engaged. P-51 flew escort (?) and saw radial engine fighter near B-17 and decided that was FW-190 too and opened fire. La engaged.

As for why he didn't pull off - it's quite safe and easy to give such advise sitting in the soft chair 50 years after. That day he found himself with two guys shooting at him, and fought back.

He was not happy about this either. He never claimed these kills.


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## Anonymous (Jan 24, 2005)

Porco14 said:


> The story goes like that: Kozhedub saw FW-190 near lone B-17 and engaged. P-51 flew escort (?) and saw radial engine fighter near B-17 and decided that was FW-190 too and opened fire. La engaged.
> 
> As for why he didn't pull off - it's quite safe and easy to give such advise sitting in the soft chair 50 years after. That day he found himself with two guys shooting at him, and fought back.
> 
> He was not happy about this either. He never claimed these kills.



As I said, when I've read of this event before, it was stated neither P-51 pilot survived. So we only have the one side of the story.

I'm pretty sure that if one of the P-51 pilots had survived we'd have a record of his side of the story as well.

As far as I know, no side gave credit for friendly fire kills, so it was not something he could "claim" even if he wished to.

Edit: And I think it is very telling that the P-51's still have their drop tanks on in the guncam footage. This means they were not in combat mode, thus totally disputing the Russian pilots claims that they would not break off the engagement. I think it is damn clear from the footage that the Russian pilot simply bounced the two P-51's and shot them down - they may even have known he was there and not expected the attack.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Porco14 (Jan 24, 2005)

Does anybody knows what unit those planes were from? Who were the pilots? And when all this happened? The book states only "April 1945", no particular date.


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## Udet (Feb 2, 2005)

I have these shots.

First: it might be my sight but unlike you RG Lunatic, i do not think the presence of drop tanks can be detected at all (or the absence thereof) on the P-51 in the first series of shots.

The second series clearly show drop tanks in the underwing; curiously for one moment the plane does not appear being a P-51 (USAAF markings can be detected though). If you take a closer view, in the second shot from the left, in the second series, the plane has a similar shape to a RAF Hurricane, still the squared wing tips are a giveaway.

I have asked further, and it seems like Soviet fighters fitted with guncameras were extremey rare. Perhaps only an "enfant chèri" such as Kozhedub and a number of other aces received cameras on their fighters.

I ve been told Kozhedub`s victories over those 2 Mustangs could be an invention of soviet propaganda, what do you think?


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## Anonymous (Feb 2, 2005)

Udet said:


> I have these shots.
> 
> First: it might be my sight but unlike you RG Lunatic, i do not think the presence of drop tanks can be detected at all (or the absence thereof) on the P-51 in the first series of shots.
> 
> ...



Look at the right wing of the first sequence. Very clearly there is something hanging under the wing, right where the drop tanks should go. The left wing also shows something there, though less distinctly. The film quality is not great, but since the 2nd set clearly shows drop tanks, and the first set show what appear to be likely to be drop tanks, and the planes were flying together, it seems only logical that both had drop tanks on when attacked.

It may well have been an invention of Soviet propoganda. I've never seen any official US side to this incident. You'd expect there would have been some kind of an investigation right?

=S=

Lunatic


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## Udet (Feb 2, 2005)

RG:

Ok. I do think I can detect what you tell me on the first P-51, still I have my doubts.

Well, I am afraid yes. An investigation should have been carried out by the USAAF. Or perhaps has it been already conducted? Did they discover the soviet claims were real and decided to conceal it?

My point is the soviet propaganda was perhaps more prolific than that of the Reich. Cases of soviet propaganda creations and manipulations or soviet mythology, have been discovered. Such cases are plentiful (a bit off topic, but the following examples are illustrative), here you have a few:

(i) The "famous" duel between sniper Zaitsev and the "top German sniper" sent into Stalingrad for the sole purpose of hunting down the soviet guy. Never happened.

(ii) The so called "greatest tank battle in history" in the Kursk salient in 1943, having the soviets claiming the destruction of "hundreds" of Tigers of the SS PanzerKorps, in the fight around the village of Prokhorova. Recent books and info proved such a thing never quite happened as well. Quite the contrary, the II SS Panzer Korps had virtually gutted the whole soviet tank reserve in the area.


I could name more, but let`s keep it on topic.

Perhaps Mr. Kozhedub indeed brought down 2 Mustangs. Why do I think it could be an invention of their propaganda state? First, and as I said, precedents of soviet inventions are plentiful. Secondly, to forge an idea of how a soviet hero could more than deal with the top USA weapons in the prelude of what would be known as cold war?

You make a strong point when you affirm a Mustang with its drop tanks still in the underwing certainly was not operating in the attack or offensive mode. Then the apparent generally accepted version of Kozhedub being attacked relentlessly leaving him no choice but to strike back and destroy his attackers would be shattered. 

Shall this be the case, the soviets again, would be the victims of their own manipulations.


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## Anonymous (Feb 2, 2005)

Udet said:


> RG:
> 
> Ok. I do think I can detect what you tell me on the first P-51, still I have my doubts.
> 
> Well, I am afraid yes. An investigation should have been carried out by the USAAF. Or perhaps has it been already conducted? Did they discover the soviet claims were real and decided to conceal it?



If this were the case the results of the investigation would have come to light no later than 1995 under the FIA. This is a topic that I'm sure someone has submitted FIA's with respect to. Only matters of continuing National Security, after review by Congress, are protected from the FIA, and this certainly would not fall into that catagory.



Udet said:


> My point is the soviet propaganda was perhaps more prolific than that of the Reich. Cases of soviet propaganda creations and manipulations or soviet mythology, have been discovered. Such cases are plentiful (a bit off topic, but the following examples are illustrative), here you have a few:
> 
> (i) The "famous" duel between sniper Zaitsev and the "top German sniper" sent into Stalingrad for the sole purpose of hunting down the soviet guy. Never happened.
> 
> ...



I agree. Personally I think that these P-51's were indeed shot down, but it probably happened over enemy territory (German or Soviet) with no US witnesses. The USAAF probably didn't hear of Kozhedub's claims until years after WWII was over, and no meaningful investigation was possible. 

From the guncam footage, it appears the first (top) P-51 was attacked from out of the Sun, and the second still had not yet realized it was under attack as its drop tanks are still on (it only took seconds to dump them in the P-51). It looks like a classic bounce attack to me - kill the rear of the two planes on the first pass from out of the Sun, then swoop around and kill the second, who is unaware his wingman has been shot down, from the low six.

=S=

Lunatic


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## lesofprimus (Feb 2, 2005)

I dont know what happened to this poll, but the # of votes for Kozhedub CANNOT be that favorable over Hartmann, as much as I would like them to be..... 

900 votes + is just wayyyyyyy off..... Someone spamming????


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## Udet (Feb 2, 2005)

RG:

I guess i agree.

It shall also be understood we can not know everything on WWII. Trying to detect each and every P-51 shot down over Europe is way too much a task, if not an arrogant one. 


Still, I would put Kozhedub´s P-51 claims into serious doubt.

Not because he was not capable or anything (he was a top fighter pilot) but beause of the issues i mentioned on the soviet propaganda.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 2, 2005)

hell i didn't spam vote, i haven't even voted once yet........


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## Grim_Reaper (Feb 3, 2005)

I've submitted to the forum just to reply 
Guys, there are no serious reasons for "soviet propaganda" to invent anything of this sort - we were allies after all&this accident was only mentioned in Kozhedub's book as a real ACCIDENT for which he himself was very sorry. Moreover, the case was never used during the cold war, as far as i know. So, in conclusion, i have no reasons to doubt the whole fact of this accident.

About Prohorovka... Pals, i think yu're totally wrong - this battle DID happen during the summer offensive in 1943&soviet tanks and tank killers overwhelmed the german forces in number and efficiency - i'd like to see the "new info" about it that you've mentioned btw, saying that this battle was not real is like doubting the attack on Pearl Harbour or Battle of Britain (as far as i know, these events are filled with myths and propaganda as well)


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## Anonymous (Feb 3, 2005)

Grim_Reaper said:


> I've submitted to the forum just to reply
> Guys, there are no serious reasons for "soviet propaganda" to invent anything of this sort - we were allies after all&this accident was only mentioned in Kozhedub's book as a real ACCIDENT for which he himself was very sorry. Moreover, the case was never used during the cold war, as far as i know. So, in conclusion, i have no reasons to doubt the whole fact of this accident.
> 
> About Prohorovka... Pals, i think yu're totally wrong - this battle DID happen during the summer offensive in 1943&soviet tanks and tank killers overwhelmed the german forces in number and efficiency - i'd like to see the "new info" about it that you've mentioned btw, saying that this battle was not real is like doubting the attack on Pearl Harbour or Battle of Britain (as far as i know, these events are filled with myths and propaganda as well)



There is every reason to doubt it. He claimed he was attacked first by the P-51's. This is of course impossible, as they still had their wing tanks on! This totally disputes his story. P-51's did not engage in combat with the drop tanks on, the tanks sit right beneath the ejection chutes. So there is no way they fired at him!

Soviet motivations would have been internal propganda, not external, in the years immeadiately following WWII.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Feb 3, 2005)

P-51's do not engage with their drop tanks on ? wanna bet pard. in 1945 Luftwaffe a/c systematically tried to get P-51 escorts to drop their tanks and engage them when all of sudden the P-51's went ahead and dived down on the climbing Lufwaffe fighters....

shades of the 78th fg, 355th and 352nd blue nose bastards

26 Nov. 44 2nd SF attacked large groups of unsuspecting JG 301 Fw 190's from behind (P-51's with their drop tanks still on the wings)


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## Anonymous (Feb 3, 2005)

Erich said:


> P-51's do not engage with their drop tanks on ? wanna bet pard. in 1945 Luftwaffe a/c systematically tried to get P-51 escorts to drop their tanks and engage them when all of sudden the P-51's went ahead and dived down on the climbing Lufwaffe fighters....
> 
> shades of the 78th fg, 355th and 352nd blue nose bastards
> 
> 26 Nov. 44 2nd SF attacked large groups of unsuspecting JG 301 Fw 190's from behind (P-51's with their drop tanks still on the wings)



It was certainly not a normal practice. The drop tanks sit beneath the ejection chutes, casings hitting them would possibly damage the drop tank which could lead to disaster (especially paper tanks). Casings bouncing off them could also jam the release works.

Besides, the incident you describe was one of pure advantage. The La7 incident involved a plane that was an immeadiate threat to both the P-51's and the bomber. They'd surely have dropped their tanks!

=S=

Lunatic


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 4, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> I dont know what happened to this poll, but the # of votes for Kozhedub CANNOT be that favorable over Hartmann, as much as I would like them to be.....
> 
> 900 votes + is just wayyyyyyy off..... Someone spamming????



Theyve gotta be...certrainly isnt me cos im not a fan of Kozhedub. If you ask me, at the moment you would be the prime suspect  There's probably some unknown person doing it though.


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## Grim_Reaper (Feb 4, 2005)

> Soviet motivations would have been internal propganda, not external, in the years immeadiately following WWII



This is only a matter of belief for you&it's more realistic for me - this accident was never used even during Korean war (soviet people knew very little of what happened there, so i doubt the need of highlighting some incidents in WWII then)

The only thing i'd like to ask is where did you find the tape - my collegues and I are discussing the problems regarding this tape on one of the russian military forums but we still cant find out any reliable information in the internet - can you help?


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## Grim_Reaper (Feb 4, 2005)

2RG_Lunatic: i think the reason why they haven't dropped the tanks was that they were on escort mission&tried do shake off Kozhedub's "Fw" (as they thought) with long range fire. Kozhedub himself was a very rough man, he could have mistaken the american fighters for Bfs+they were engaging - he was forced to shoot back: using his La-7 advantages he climbed and shot one from the long range (they didn't see him, maybe thought they've shaken him)&another from medium range. Then he, probably, noticed the USAF markings and didn't "finish" the second one - that's my point of view. Actually, he thought he was defending the Fortress, maybe this can be an excuse for him


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## Porco14 (Feb 7, 2005)

Udet:
Are you sure Mj Koenings wasn't shot by Zaitsev in Stalingrad? If you don' seem to believe anything from this side of Germany, Koenigs' scope in Moscow museum including, you can always check "Enemy at the Gate" - the original book by William Craig, not that shitty movie of course.

At Kursk nazi won a big victory, that's probably why they fall back and never have a major offense since then 

As for propaganda - that case with Mustangs was never open to public until several decades after the war. How you can get propaganda value out of smth that nobody knows?


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## Udet (Feb 7, 2005)

Erich:

Sorry, but I do not think I understod your point.

"in 1945 Luftwaffe a/c systematically tried to get P-51 escorts to drop their tanks and engage them.." ?

A fighter without its drop tank can certainly be more manouverable and faster, so what you possibly meant is the Germans tried to get the Mustangs still with their tanks on?

The footage I have shows perhaps two shots of P-51s getting destroyed with their drop tanks on; it is, however, a clear case of bouncing, the USA guys never say what killed them. But in the vast majority of the cases, when it is clear you are watching a dogfight, no drop tanks in the underwing at all.

That is perhaps the main reason why such fuel tanks could be jettisoned, don´t you think? (i) Drop tanks diminished the manouvering and speed of the fighter and (ii) to enter a dogfight with your drop tank on and take enemy shells and bullets...you become a flying torch.


Porco14: I will not get into details with you on that. If you firmly believe what the soviet propaganda displays in Russian museums and pray everyone of the dogmas they told you, I am quite comfortable with that.


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## Erich (Feb 7, 2005)

a couple of notations. 

there never was a König gent a sniper at Stalingrad as the German Heer sniper did not get above sergeant in rank. there were no Waffen SS truppen at Stalingrad anyway. this is all myth. Koenig could easily have been scratched into the scope and that was strickly against regulations anyway.

second yes the Luftwaffe wanted to decrease the range of the P-51's by getting "mixed up" with the Allied escorts early on in the air battles so they could not come down after aerial engagements and shoot up airfields. What I was saying is that there was so much confidence in the US P-51 pilots they went ahead and operated against Luftwaffe single engine fighters with drop tanks on. Not necessarily a smart move but many did it anyway.

E


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## plan_D (Feb 7, 2005)

Porco, start a thread on the Kursk battle in WWII General and I'll gladly educate you on the subject.  

And no major offensive since Kursk? I see...    Tell the lads sat around Bastogne that Germany had no fight in her.


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 16, 2005)

> not that s**t movie of course.



Hey theres nothing wrong with that film...may not be terribly accurate but its a great flick.


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## BALU (Feb 19, 2005)

Erich said:


> ...there never was a König gent a sniper at Stalingrad as the German Heer sniper did not get above sergeant in rank.
> ... Koenig could easily have been scratched into the scope and that was strickly against regulations anyway.



As Zaitsev has been told König (Konings according to Zaitsev) was a head of sniper school in Berlin. One german prizoner told that Konings arrived by aircraft with a task to kill Zaitsev. And in fact a very good sniper appeared on the german side that time. That sniper destroyed a scope of the Morozov (russian sniper) and wounded sniper Shaikin. Both were very expirienced.
After Konings wounded a friend of Zaitsev - Nikolay Kulikov and wounded a politruk (in a finger) who tried to show Konongs shelter.
Next day Zaitsev killed a german sniper who were major with documents (Zaitsev has seen his body). The scope of german sniper was wery powerful (x6 o more). Only very good sniper can use this kind of scope. Olso, that german sniper was very patient. It was unusual for "regular" german snipers. 
In Stalingrad Zaitsev was not the best soviet sniper. The best was Sasha Kolentiev.


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## BALU (Feb 19, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> > not that s**t movie of course.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey theres nothing wrong with that film...may not be terribly accurate but its a great flick.



The film is good and "wellreseived" in Russia. But it gives you a kind of wrong impression about russians (and soviets) - I can not say about germans. Russians do not love "heroic" people. A classik russian hero is an unpretentious person, without any visible self advertisment.

The block troops NEVER used in a manner showed in this moovie. Usually they were staying about kilometres from the front line, catchig deserters.

Troops NEVER were transported in locked carriages. It is idiotic. How can you escape from bombers from locked carriage?


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## BALU (Feb 19, 2005)

Porco14 said:


> Regarding Kozhedub's skirmish with P-51s.
> 
> Here is gun camera with two downed P-51s. The book I took it from tells that one of mustang pilots bailed out and later said that they mistook La-7 for "FW-190 with red nose" and opened fire from the long distance.



Zeiss optic in La-7?


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## BALU (Feb 19, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> I dont know what happened to this poll, but the # of votes for Kozhedub CANNOT be that favorable over Hartmann, as much as I would like them to be.....
> 
> 900 votes + is just wayyyyyyy off..... Someone spamming????



All Russia was here


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## Nonskimmer (Feb 20, 2005)




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## cheddar cheese (Feb 20, 2005)

Either that or Kozhedub himself


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 28, 2005)

Ace at works.

Hartmann 300th. 


The following is an extract of the radio comunication betwenn Erich Hartmann, his wingman, and the groun control the day he achieved his 300th kill.

Russia -24th August 1944

Erich Hartmann, yet the most succesful pilot of the history scored his 290th victory the day before. The whole squadron is waiting for the historical moment - the 300. kill of Erich Hartmann, the first pilot to achieve this figure.

Just after lunch Oberleutnant Hartmann flew his first mission of the day. The squadron members are waiting in front of the radio.

13.07: Hartmann is reporting for the first time on the radio

13.15: Hartmann has contact with the enemy and is instantly scoring his first kill of the day

13.18: Abschuß ! (victory!). He orders his wingman to move to the opposite side.

13.19: Look out for enemies from above ! Attention ! Abschuß!

13.25: Abschuß !

13.27: Abschuß ! Reprimands his wingman to fly better. Watch above !

Silence

13.40: Abschuß ! Burns near the street. Another pilot: Bombers over O.

13.44: Do you have contact ? Another formation

13.45: Airacobras. Watch above !

13.48: Watch above !

13.57: Land, I will rock my wings six times.

Nearly two hours later, Hartmann is preparing for another mission.

15.44: Question to ground control: Do you have a bogie ? No ? Why are we then airborne ?

15.50: Ground control: Enemies over Sandowiez.

15.51: Watch out ! Airacobras !

16.00: Abschuß !

16.03: Abschuß !

16.06: Watch the rear and above ! Abschuß !

16.10: Abschuß ! (Airacobra/300.)

16.19: Ordering to attack an Pe 2 formation

16.20: Abschuß ! 

16.37: Hartmann is landing

His victories on that day included 3 Pe-2, 2 yak fighters and 1 Airacobra

As ever in the case of such occasions he was handed flowers and champagne to celebrate the event. Only that the flowers were picked from the fields nearby and the champagne was warm."Bimmel" Mertens, his mechanic was the first to congratulate him, but soon the whole group followed and the next morning the was far from being in a "ready" condition. But it did not matter as the news came through that he had been awarded the Diamonds.


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## reddragon (Feb 28, 2005)

I'm impressed with Erich Hartmann. His first mission was October 14, 1942 and his last one was May 8, 1945 so he only had two years, seven months and according to him, around 1,456 missions, to achieve 352 victories.


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## reddragon (Mar 1, 2005)

Lesofprimus, I like your signature.


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## Erich (Mar 1, 2005)

BALU, sorry bud but your story is pure crap. All snipers had powerful scopes. König or whatever Soviet propaganda you want to beleive about Zaitslev's story is pure rubbish. No German sniper was allowed to mark any of his personal effects since this could possibly lead to the units ID.

Again I repeat there was no König and NO snipers were sent to Stalingrad above sergeant because there just wern't any on the front fighting as front line soldiers. The W-SS as I mentioned did not start up their own sniper schools until after the Stalingrad fiasco.

There are no German records accounting for the listing of a major of König or whomever of a sniper school during or ater the Stalingrad battles......

sorry this is off topic


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## john (Mar 5, 2005)

Hi,
I´m new, so first a say hallo to everyone.
I just read your posts. 
How can you say that Ivan Kozhedub is the greatest pilot?
Just because he´s an alli?
Is it hard to say, yes, the germans had the better pilots? 
Look at the stats. The best 100 german-pilots(lets say achsen-pilots, cause their where also austrian for example)
shot down ca. 14000 airplanes!!!

There is no way out to say Hartmann was the best pilot.
The best skills maybe had Marseille. I read some books about fighter aces and all books say the same. Doesn´t if its an german or an american author. Marseille shot and flough like a devil. If he hadn´t died maybe he would count more kills than hartmann.
And he was fighting in the West, so some can not say "they just fought in the east. the russians were bad fighters etc..."



Sorry but I often ralise that a lot of people just see the allies and think the germans were bad fighters just because they were germans!
The Germans lost the war thats fact  
but if your are objective you have to say. They got the best army. this includes soldiers, weapons and of course good genreal staffs.
The hole allied nations did not have as good technic as the germans at the beginning of the world war. And even at the end the germans had weapons which were still the best in their class. they just didn´t have the opportunity to build them.
This is just for those who are so to say "allied blinded" 

john


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## mosquitoman (Mar 6, 2005)

I agree, the German army had the best quality equipment but the allies had 2 big advantages, one was that we had very efficient supply lines- the German army was still using horses for transport purposes. The other advantage is that quantity has a quality all it's own


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 6, 2005)

Just because guys have the most kills doesnt automatically make them the best...Russians fought with a large disadvantage against the Germans. (I actually voted for Priller in the poll though.)

Before you complain, I am not anti-German or anything of the sort. The Germans are my favourite nation in terms of aviation of the war.


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## BombTaxi (Mar 6, 2005)

I personally went for Galland, mainly because he made an outstanding contribution to the Luftwaffe as a staff officer as wellas a combat pilot. For a similar reason, I would have been inclined to include Bader in the poll as well as Johnson


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 18, 2005)

You have to go for either Hartmann (just because he was so young, never given a chance and beat everyones expectations) or Heinz Baer. Baer was an outstanding pilot and one of the greatest ever to fly a combat aircraft.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 20, 2005)

i don't have to go for anyone, and what's not specail about taking out 38 single engined planes and getting holed once, or flying with fake legs??


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 20, 2005)

I think Lanc is getting aggrivated.


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## Erich (Mar 21, 2005)

I stick with Heinz BAer for several reasons.............a distant relative for one  

second the man flew many different fighters including the hot rod 262 and the rocket assisted 262.

third and lastly the many was on many different threaters of combat, flew against the best the Allies had to offer. In my opinion Hartmann's kills his first years of combat were inexperienced and easy pickings of Soviet fighters.....having the highest scores does not make you the best. incidently marseilles claims on the Afrika front are somewhat specualtive. At least 25-30 are suspect


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## acesman (Mar 21, 2005)

Hartman did fight against Americans, and claimed several Mustangs over Romania, but I agree that you really have to judge a pilot by his opponents. For instance, the "Marianas Turkey Shoot" is not so much a tribute to the skill of the Hellcat pilots involved, but to the poor quality of the Japanese pilots. From that standpoint, Kozhedub or Priller would have to be considered the best, and I would vote for Priller, just for staying alive (and scoring some successes) for the last 16 months of the war against an overwhelming US/British air armada.


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## Gnomey (Mar 21, 2005)

I would say Hartmann or Priller. Hartmann because of his large number of kills and Priller because of his success against the allies on the Western Front in the last part of the war against overwhelming superiority


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## Erich (Mar 21, 2005)

if you guys are going just by latter war years in the ETO and surviving I could number 20-30 pilots better than Priller. Remember that Geschwader Kommodores for good reason were pulled from air combat service much to their own disliking to serve as administrative co-ordinators. The guys had to have some say as to what inner airfields they were to move their Geschwadern..........plus the moral booster of privately getting the new recruits trained which seemed an impossible task due to the high attrition of these 4-5 mission pilots, my cousin included in that very factor

E


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## delcyros (Mar 21, 2005)

I did voted for Galland. He was inspiring, a master tactician and proved to be deadly. And I like his personal aircraft sign


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 9, 2005)

BUTCHER BOB! 

1stLt Robert M. Hanson of VMF-215 enjoyed a brief career in which he *shot down 20 of his final total of 25 Japanese planes in 13 days*.  He was shot down during a strafing run on 3 February, 1944, a day before his 24th birthday.


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 9, 2005)

SCREWBALL GEORGE - WHAT A CHARACTER

Buzz Beurling, Canada's leading WWII ace. His skill in a cockpit was, however, matched with a streak of rebelliousness and disrespect for authority. He had two nicknames: "Buzz" for his habit of unauthorized low-level flying and "Screwball" for his erratic behavior. At one point he even designed his own uniform!

32 total kills, *In 14 days of combat on Malta, he destroyed 27 enemy planes, damaged eight, and probably destroyed three more.*


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## Mukhulai (May 20, 2005)

Well, I am not going to announce who was the best. We do not have a tiniest idea about fighting in WW1 or 2. Thus I think it is really dumb to us to choose someone over the others. All those guys fought for their cases. Personally I like Saburo Sakai most. He was a real fighter. Think about it, badly damaged aircraft, half paralized body, one eye totally out of "service", other one is barely sees, 500 miles of flight over the sea to find tiny island airport with only magnetic compass and landing without crash. That is one hell lot of Fighter. After his recovery (with one eye), once 15 Hellcats tried to shoot his Zero down. Ofcourse they couldn't.


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## lesofprimus (May 20, 2005)

HHHmmmm...... Good pick, but what u stated:


> Think about it, badly damaged aircraft, half paralized body, one eye totally out of "service", other one is barely sees, 500 miles of flight over the sea to find tiny island airport with only magnetic compass and landing without crash. That is one hell lot of Fighter.



Thats actually one hell of a pilot, not fighter........ But i do agree that he was a hell of a fighter pilot........


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## Glider (May 20, 2005)

I would also have to go for SaburoSakai apart from his other achievements, the one that always sticks in my mind is he never lost a wingman.
That is I suspect, unique and says volumes about the man.


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## Piaggio108 (May 20, 2005)

Hartmann never lost a wingman either unless I'm mistaken


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## evangilder (May 20, 2005)

I seem to recall hearing that once as well, Piaggio. Erich or Adler may know for sure though.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 20, 2005)

Piaggio108 said:


> Hartmann never lost a wingman either unless I'm mistaken



Not in air-to-air combat - you're correct!


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## cheddar cheese (May 20, 2005)

Its a shame that someone spam voted Kozhedub.


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## lesofprimus (May 20, 2005)

I agree CC.. It was going good till someone spammed the hell outta it... It was a pretty close race up to the spamathon.....


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## marseille jr (May 24, 2005)

1 the victory tally is not too relevant when deciding about quality. Compare for example graff and hartman. Graff was the first man ever to pass the 200 mark . As a result of that he was forbidden to fly further missions, deemed too valuable by the german upper command.. This was somewhere in 1943. If one considers he downed an average of more than 15 planes a month this means that, had he flown for another year, mathematically he would have had about 380 vics ... one year later in 1944. Yes more than hartmann who flew intermittently until the end.

2 Marseille died aged 22. He scored over 150 vics in one year without bein downed by the enemy. He averaged 15 rounds /kill. He set a world record with 17 in one day (ok, lang got 18, but that was on the russian front). He obtained 56 vics in one month against a numerically superior enemy equipped with spits and well trained pilots. If he had flown one year extra at this level, well he would have notched up 500 vics and more. Marseille is undeniably the best dogfighter ever and the most talented. However, if I would have been a pilot in WWII I would have preferred the hartmann style, as it is much safer for a common pilot.

3 what about emil lang and kurt bühligen? Lang scored over 100 vics in 2 months! He has been called the bravest man of the luftwaffe. He died over my home town (sint-truiden) after his landing gear came out during a dogfight with p47's. He was a masterful gunner, which he proved through his world record of 18 in one day. He was on par with marseille I think, but since marseille was 15 years younger, marseille wins.

4 I've seen hartmanns list and was not impressed. His planes were usually p39 or lagg3. I didn't see any la-7 or yak-3. Erich himself said he avoided dogfights. He was a tactical genius and a supreme pilot, but not the best fighter in the world. As mentioned before, If I had been a pilot back then, i would have adopted his style : chose weak enemies in a tactical disadvanced position, bag them and get the hell out. Very smart .

5 let's not forget Bartels too. He racked up a nice tally containing lotsa p51's, p38's and p47's. 

6 It's not fair and not apt to compare pilots from different countries. If Kozhedub or juutlilanen had been germans, they may have become 200 or 300+ aces as well.

Conclusion: Marseille rules, with Emil Lang in his wake.


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## Erich (May 24, 2005)

doesn't matter, Heinz Baer was still better than any of them


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## marseille jr (May 24, 2005)

Nope.

Bär was an excellent fighter pilot, but not the best. Both Lang and marseille (and prolly bartels and rudorffer) would have beaten him in a fight.


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## marseille jr (May 24, 2005)

Bär was shot down 18 times btw


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## lesofprimus (May 24, 2005)

Hmmm.... Someones challenging Erichs opinion.........


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## Nonskimmer (May 24, 2005)

** Cue the theme to "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly".**


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## evangilder (May 24, 2005)

I would like to see your supporting documentation, Marseille. Believe me, Erich is quite well versed in German fighter pilots, planes and tactics.


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## lesofprimus (May 24, 2005)

> Both Lang and marseille (and prolly bartels and rudorffer) would have beaten him in a fight.


And he would have beaten them too.... No pilot won all his mock battles... Even if some magical genie came out of Meds special bottle and poofed Baer over to the VVS, the results would have been the same.... 

Approach each other at XXX MPH, in a neutral posture, and its on..... I give Baer 5 outta 10, as I do each of the other excellent pilots u listed...... Even money.........

In January 1945, Bär became the Kommandeur of Ergänzungs-Jagdgeschwader 2, an advanced training unit for the Messerschmitt Me 262A jet pilots at Lechfeld... Not something a poor pilot would be assigned to.... Bär downed 13 enemy bombers and fighters while he served with III/EJG 2......... 

When Galland was wounded, Bär took over command of the unit on April 26, 1945......... Hell of a man to replace, wouldnt u agree????

With JV 44, he flew the prototype Me 262A-1a/U1 extra heavily armed with six cannon including two 20mm MG 151s, two 30mm MK 103s and two 30mm MK 108s....... He downed his last three victories, all Republic P-47 Thunderbolts, with JV 44.... 

Heinz Bär is the 8th ranking air "Ace" of all time..... He fought on every German front throughout the entire duration of World War II in Europe and Africa...... His 16 aerial victories acquired while he flew the Me 262A place him as the 2nd ranking jet ace of WWII.... While fighting on every front and flying just about every type of German fighter, Heinz Bär was shot down 18 times and wounded on many occasions.

Not many pilots can say they flew in all the theatres of the war marseille... This guy was no slouch as u seem to be implying..... Your namesake was aguably the greatest, and many people would agree, but Baer was his equal....

I think i will be remaking this topic with a new poll and revise the listing... Please see the above poll and add who u think should be added/removed... I did a pretty good job for this last poll....
remember, only 15 names can be listed, so think wisely and universally....

Eder, Schnaufer and Bartles look like they will be removed... Who to add?????


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## FLYBOYJ (May 24, 2005)

Agree with the above, I think Bob Johnson needs to be added in there, he carried a similar kill pace to Galland, also don't forget the "night guys" like Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer (121 kills). I also think Macky Steinhoff and Werner Molders needs to be mentioned as well.


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## lesofprimus (May 25, 2005)

> Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer


Ummm....... Look at the list above. He's already there.... Molders I can add with no questions asked..........
Bob Johnson is another matter.... If u go back and read all these threads, or atleast the beginnings of them, u will see write ups on all the guys and whatnot that i copy/pasted..... I dont know if Bob Johnson would actually get any votes, and space is limited on th epoll at 15 Aces.....

Here.........


Johnson flew 91 missions with the 56th Fighter Group, all in razorback P-47C's and D's. The group, later nicknamed Zemke's Wof Pack, flew it's first mission on 13 April 1943. Johnson scored his first "kill," a Focke Wulf FW 190, on 13 June northwest of Ypres, Belgium. On that day, the 56th took off from Horsham St Faith at 0900 hours for a sweep over Gravelines, Bailleul, Aeltre and Knocke. While flying at 27,000-feet (8,230 meters) east of Bruges , the group spotted about 20 FW 190's at about 20,000-feet (6,096 meters). Leading the first section of the 61st Fighter Squadron, Zemke took the seven P-47's in a dive to attack a four-plane FW 190 section. They approached undetected from astern and Zemke shot down one; opened fire on a second aircraft and saw hits on the wings before it dived away; and then found himself on the tail of a third FW 190 which he shot down. Johnson spotted the FW 190's at the same time as Zemke and dived out of formation, attacked the leader of the section and shot him down. But Johnson broke one of the cardinal rules of air combat, i.e., you do not leave the formation. In the politically correct 1990's we would say that Johnson was coached by fellow members of the group for his indiscretion; in the politically incorrect 1940's we would say Johnson got his ass chewed out by Zemke. 

On 26 June 1943, the 56th was one of three groups tasked with supporting B-17's attacking targets in France. Johnson's aircraft took 21 cannon shells from a FW 190 and he was burned, blinded and wounded in the right leg and nose. He attempted to bail out but could not get the canopy open so he headed back to England. Over the English Channel, another FW 190 flown by Oberst Egon Mayer of J.G. 2 attacked Johnson's crippled aircraft. Mayer had exhausted his cannon ammunition and began shooting up the P-47 with machine gun fire. When Mayer ran out of ammunition, he pulled alongside, wagged his wings and peeled off. Johnson made it as far as Manston, Kent and landed the P-47C-2-RE, USAAF s/n 41-6235 "All Hell," coded HV-P; the aircraft was a write off. 

Johnson got his second victory on 19 August 1943; in October 1943, he got three more making him an ace. In November 1943, he got two and three in December making him a double ace. The year 1944 was a banner year for him; he got four in January, two in February and six in March. He was promoted to Captain in April and got three aircraft that month and two more on his last mission on 8 May 1944 giving him a total of 27, the first USAAF pilot in Europe to break Eddie Rickenbacker's World War I record. He was also the second USAAF pilot to break Rickenbacker's record; Richard I. Bong shot down his 26th Japanese aircraft on 11 April 1944. After his 27th victory, Johnson was promoted to Major and transferred to the 62d Fighter Squadron as Operations Officer. He never flew another combat mission. 

Because of his record number of "kills," Johnson was ordered home for War Bond tours and departed England on 6 June 1944. He was reunited with his wife Barbara on his return and both he and his wife reported to the White House where they was greeted by President Franklin D. Roosevelt. Later that day, he and his wife appeared in the visitors' gallery of the US Senate and the senators rose and gave him a standing ovation. The day was topped off by having tea with Eleanor Roosevelt at the White House. 

The next day, Johnson went to the Republic plant at Farmingdale, Long Island, New York where he again was applauded by thousands of workers who were building P-47's. 

For his accomplishments in WWII, Major Johnson was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross (the Army's second highest award), the Silver Star, the Distinguished Flying Cross, Air Medals and the Purple Heart. 

Johnson's record of 27 victories makes him: 

1. Tied for second highest number of victories in the European Theater of Operations, and 

2. Tied for fourth highest number of victories in the USAAF during WWII, and 

3. Tied for fourth highest number of victories in the Air Service/AAC/AAF/USAF Aces of all wars. .


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## Erich (May 25, 2005)

Marseille was reckless and his own Kameraden have proved it vocally. Lang was an excellent pilot. Heinz Bär had the most experience on the most theaters and with the most a/c of the Luftwaffe. Technically sound and didn't give a horses rear end actually of what other people thought. he hated the limelight. His story is being written right now in fact....

Schnaufer is good but prefer friend and ace Heinz Rökker in the night fighter pilot category


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## mosquitoman (May 25, 2005)

Scnaufer shouldn't be removed as he was the hghest scoring German nightfighter pilot, Porshkyrin (is that the right spelling?) should be up there aswell for doing so much with only a P-39


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## lesofprimus (May 25, 2005)

I agree with u Mossie, but the #'s are self evident... He is not very popular, as the voting has shown above...

Pokryshkin should be there as well, and he was in the last version of the poll.. He got 3 votes i believe... It pains me to leave some guys off....


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## mosquitoman (May 25, 2005)

Just because they were great doesn't mean they're well known, that's the problem


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## FLYBOYJ (May 25, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> Ummm....... Look at the list above. He's already there.... .



Great stuff on BOB Johnson Les, but the list has James Johnson, 38 kills, AKA Johnnie Johnson?!?


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## Erich (May 25, 2005)

Heinz Bär !! 8)


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## cheddar cheese (May 25, 2005)

Priller 8)


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## FLYBOYJ (May 25, 2005)

We need to get the voting started again!


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## cheddar cheese (May 25, 2005)

Yep! Whos that half blind Jap ace...Saburo Sukai...or what ever his name was. He should be there.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 25, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> Yep! Whos that half blind Jap ace...Saburo Sukai...or what ever his name was. He should be there.



How about the Brit with a half a leg?


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## cheddar cheese (May 25, 2005)

You mean Bader?


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## FLYBOYJ (May 25, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> You mean Bader?



yea, or what ever his name was....


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## Erich (May 25, 2005)

no it's Bär !


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## FLYBOYJ (May 25, 2005)

Erich said:


> no it's Bär !


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## mosquitoman (May 25, 2005)

Hows about John Cunningham?


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## lesofprimus (May 25, 2005)

Douglas Bader was on there as well, on the previous version of this poll. He got 1 vote......... 1............



> Whos that half blind Jap ace...Saburo Sukai...or what ever his name was. He should be there.


Saburo Sakai was a great pilot, but most consider him inferior to Nishizawa or Iwamoto... There were some really great pilots that flew for the Rising Sun...


> Great stuff on BOB Johnson Les, but the list has James Johnson, 38 kills, AKA Johnnie Johnson?!?


That is correct buddy...... Johnnie was the leading British Ace..... I had Paddy Finacune on there as well last poll and he got 2 votes I believe...... I consider Paddy the Greatest pilot to come off the British Isles........ He shot down Galland for crying out loud.........

OK i will put together another poll and have it up and running this evening... There will be some differences, but I will go through the other polls and combine all the info I can, as well as bios............

Its very time consuming guys....... The problem with this poll is that most people just vote for their favorite Ace, not who they think is the Best.....


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## FLYBOYJ (May 25, 2005)

Great stuff Les, I'm leaving work now, will look for it tonight. And lets hope NO ONE SPAMS IT!


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## Erich (May 25, 2005)

since the present poll is so huge and diverse, why not do this by individual country.

US, Britain. Russia and Germany, Japan

you see what I mean.........


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## FLYBOYJ (May 25, 2005)

Erich said:


> since the present poll is so huge and diverse, why not do this by individual country.
> 
> US, Britain. Russia and Germany, Japan
> 
> you see what I mean.........



GREAT IDEA!


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## plan_D (May 25, 2005)

Then, get the winners of those polls and put 'em on to another thread called "BEST OF THE BEST ACES"


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## lesofprimus (May 25, 2005)

Too latr. I spent hours setting the new poll up.... This one and the previous go to lockdown...


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