# Russia and V-E Day



## v2 (May 10, 2015)

On this day Russia commemorates victory day over Nazi Germany, and the liberation of Europe from German occupation.

In 1944, while on their way to Berlin, Soviet soldiers raped millions of women and children, their ages ranged from 8-80. 

The USSR also deported millions to the Gulag, murdered countless of innocent people simply because they were not Communists and ethnically cleansed tens of millions of people from their ancestral lands and homes. 

All of these crimes took place between the years 1944-1945, while WW2 was still going on.

Yet to this day, useful idiots and Soviet/Russian/Communist apologists maintain that the Red Army did people in East and central Europe a huge favor when it "liberated" them from the German occupation.

The only countries in Europe that were truly liberated after WW2 were the ones that the western allies reached, those that had Soviet forces occupying them, simply replaced one brutal, fascist, murderous occupation for another. 

But unlike the Nazi occupation which lasted for 4 year, the Soviet occupation would last for 47 years.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Njaco (May 10, 2015)

Thats sick, that last pic. Some one actually made a statue?

I think Russia should celebrate the end of the war regardless of what happened afterwards. That is not what the day is about. I'm sorry that the USA, Britain and all the other Allies couldn't participate more.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## v2 (May 10, 2015)

Njaco said:


> I think Russia should celebrate the end of the war regardless of what happened afterwards.



It's easy to tell...


----------



## GrauGeist (May 10, 2015)

Njaco said:


> Thats sick, that last pic. Some one actually made a statue?
> 
> I think Russia should celebrate the end of the war regardless of what happened afterwards. That is not what the day is about. *I'm sorry that the USA, Britain and all the other Allies couldn't participate more*.


Remember, according to what they're teaching in schools there, the western Allies little or nothing to do with the Soviet Union's victorious struggle against Nazi Germany during the Great Patriotic War.


----------



## v2 (May 10, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> Remember, according to what they're teaching in schools there, the western Allies little or nothing to do with the Soviet Union's victorious struggle against Nazi Germany during the Great Patriotic War.



Lend Lease program only ...


----------



## parsifal (May 10, 2015)

war on the eastern front was brutal, and it was never going to end well after 22 June 1941. The Russians themselves lost in excess of 25 million, more than everyone else combined, except China. 

Life was always cheap in this part of the world, the Soviets continued that approach.

It was better than what the Germans had in mind had they won, but not by much


Yep, I guess im one of those apologists and liars. Thank god the russians won, and then lost. 50 years too late


----------



## parsifal (May 10, 2015)

> Remember, according to what they're teaching in schools there, the western Allies little or nothing to do with the Soviet Union's victorious struggle against Nazi Germany during the Great Patriotic War.



Nope, they dont. My wife was a product of the Soviet era education system, and they freely admit to the attrocities committed in their country's name, and of the military assistance provided by the allies. Many red necked Russians choose to deny that, I know, but it is NOT part of their education system. they also point out, correctly, that the fate of the world was decided on the battlefields of the East, and that they did that they did that without not much help from us. We sat back 1942-4 and let them bleed and die until we were ready. It made military sense to do that, and most Russian curriculum include that, but some dont, Western cconservative press, particularly US neoconservative stuff really picks up on that and loves to run with it.

Dont believe most western commentaries about this stuff. there is an agenda, particularly given Putins behaviour of late. Only if youve been there and spoken directly to the people being asccused of this rubbish directly should you make so called authoritative statements

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## vikingBerserker (May 10, 2015)

I do recall Poland being invaded by more than one country. I also recall the invasion of Finland and the occupation of the Baltic States.


----------



## GrauGeist (May 10, 2015)

parsifal said:


> Only if youve been there and spoken directly to the people being asccused of this rubbish directly should you make so called authoritative statements


I have been over there and I can tell you that the younger generation is being led to believe that the Western Allies' contribution was minimal at best.

They are also being led to believe that the western Allies, the U.S. in particular, were involved only to promote "imperialist" expansionism and Stalin had to work hard to protect the people from the "criminal" Roosevelt.

True history will acknowledge that ALL of the Allies (west and east) made immense contributions and sacrifices to defeat Germany.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## parsifal (May 10, 2015)

I havent been there since the late 80s, and my wife is now 44 years old. Perhaps a more accurate version of what happened was around at that time than it its now. Putin is a very bad man, so I would not put it pat them to be re-writing history .

I agree completely with your last statement

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Lucky13 (May 10, 2015)

parsifal said:


> Putin is a very bad man, so I would not put it pat them to be re-writing history....



Russia won the Battle of Britain?

People paid the ultimate price, to get us where we are today, people on both sides will always twist and turn to suit them, but either way you look at it, without either of them, we wouldn't be where we are today...unfortunately, crimes was committed, which can never, which should never, be swept under the carpet!

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## parsifal (May 10, 2015)

Lucky13 said:


> Russia won the Battle of Britain?
> 
> People paid the ultimate price, to get us where we are today, people on both sides will always twist and turn to suit them, but either way you look at it, without either of them, we wouldn't be where we are today...unfortunately, crimes was committed, which can never, which should never, be swept under the carpet!



Did Britain break the back of the Wehrmacht at any time? Which nation caused more grief to the LW overall until 1944.

No-one can claim total credit for the defeat of Germany. No-one came out of that war with completely clean hands. Russian people paid a very heavy price for their war. They deserve a little legend in my opinion

Reactions: Like Like:
4 | Like List reactions


----------



## pbehn (May 10, 2015)

I worked for a while in Russia, the Moscow manager of the company was a keen modeller. He knew much more than me about British world war 2 tanks because he had made models of all the tanks used by the Soviet army. He was about the same age as me (now 55) and as a young man he was in the same situation as we in the west were, much information was suppressed. When I was a child even simple things like LW losses were estimates.

From what I have read and discussed with Russians, Europe has little idea of how brutal the Nazis were in the East...this gave birth to a counter brutality. The Soviet leadership was always brutal, the Nazis allowed soviet leadership brutality to enemies to become widespread.


----------



## syscom3 (May 10, 2015)

Russia could not have won without the assistance of the western allies.

The western allies could not have won without the help of Russia.

The Russians have zero understanding of the U-Boat war in the Atlantic and how that had to be won before the US could get into the fight.

The Russians have zero understanding of the state of the US military in 1941 and how that had to be redressed before we even sent troops to Europe.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## GrauGeist (May 11, 2015)

I might also mention that there are others who share this "new age" history, including a British "historian" by the name of Geoffrey Roberts.

Some of the stuff he drivels makes me ill - here's a quote from his interview recently with RT (Russian Times):
_“The Soviet Union could have defeated Nazi Germany on its own, but it would have taken it a lot longer and at much greater price and, of course, it would have taken the country much longer to recover after World War II. Yes, the Soviet Union did not ultimately need its allies to win the war, but its alliance with particularly the United States and Great Britain helped it to win the war a lot quicker than it would have otherwise been the case.”_

Another article to look at, would be a piece that Pravda did about two years ago. VERY informative if you're a revisionist.
Without Russia, World War II goes on - English pravda.ru

What's disturbing, is that this sort of garbage isn't on conspiracy blogs and .ORG websites, it's filtering into mainstream news and information networks.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Marcel (May 11, 2015)

It's a difficult discussion and it's a pity that we don't have any Russians on the forum anymore. 
My view: yes, I am thankful to the Russians for making it easier on the Western powers to free my country. Without them, we would have remained under Nazi suppression even longer (maybe forever) and my country would have suffered greatly. I don't believe any of the Allied countries alone could have re-conquered the whole of Europe without help. Without the Russians I think the war would have lasted for many years more or maybe forever. On the other hand, I don't believe the Communist occupation of Eastern Europe was anything better than the Nazi suppression. Especially in East Germany, but also in the other countries. I remember having to send clothes and food to Poland in the '80ies, which tells you how bad it really was. I feel for our friends in Poland and other Eastern European countries for having had to endure that Soviet occupation for way too long. 

I really hope that we're not going back to that situation. I hope the Russian people come back to their senses and I hope the Western powers will have the wisedom to prevent another West-East cold war (or God forbid, a hot war). We've been there and done that.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## Shinpachi (May 11, 2015)

Generally speaking, it is not rare to see not a few liars in the eastern part of Eurasia.
That is tradition and no way to escape but listen to them well and do nothing for them.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## v2 (May 11, 2015)

Dear friends... our, Polish, point of view:


While in Europe people are commemorating "Victory" day, a lot of people in Poland are commemorating "Western-betrayal" day.

The reason why WW2 started in the first place was because Germany invaded Poland in 1939, after Poland refused to bow down to Germany's threats.


The Poles, who were betrayed by their western allies, France and the UK, fought bravely on for four weeks until the USSR invaded it as well, and inflicted heavy casualties on the German Nazi army.

Even though it was beaten, Poland was not defeated and made an enormous contribution in the struggle against Nazi Germany.

The Poles were the first to crack Germany's Enigma code.

Polish pilots tipped the scale at the "Battle of Britain", when they shot down hundreds of German planes.

The Polish resistance movement, the "Home Army" supplied key intelligence to the allies and was instrumental in sabotaging and delaying German transports and supplies to the eastern front.

Hundreds of thousands of Poles fought in the allies' armies, and were usually used as crack troops in difficult battles.

The Polish underground was the first to alert the world about the holocaust.

Unlike many other countries which were conquered by Germany during the war, like France, Poland never cooperated with the German occupiers in any way.

Despite all that and despite the fact that it was the first ally in the war against Nazi Germany, the US and the UK choose to betray the Poles and sell them to Stalin already in 1943, in the Teheran conference.

They kept this decision secret so as to make sure the Poles will keep on fighting until the very end of the war, which they did, bravely.

By the end of WW2, 6 million Poles were murdered, 3 million Catholic Poles and 3 million Jewish Poles.

The country which was the first to stand up Nazi Germany, the country which never compromised on its morals and honour, as a nation and as a people, ended up under a brutal, murderous, Stalinist occupation, which a lot of Poles considered was as bad if not worse than the Nazi occupation...

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Njaco (May 11, 2015)

Everyone is making valid points and maybe there is some discussion there, but a celebration of defeat over an evil regime by an alliance of the superpowers of the world just cannot be overlooked. Everybody has a valid point, but there should be some celebration and back-slapping on a job well done - at the least.

Just my 2 cents.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## imalko (May 11, 2015)

My two cents... Our Polish friends have good reasons for resentment as their ordeals in the war were particularly hard and were fallowed with great disappointments afterwards. However, you can't allow grievances of the past to cloud your judgement. One can't honestly believe that decades of Communist rule were no better then the Nazi occupation. Had the occupation lasted that long I doubt the Polish nation would even be in existence today. 

We should look at this Victory Day for what it really is - a day when greater evil was finally defeated by combined effort of the free nations of the world (yes, even the Russians like it or not) and to honor all those who lost their lives in the struggle.

Reactions: Like Like:
3 | Like List reactions


----------



## parsifal (May 11, 2015)

Any thinking person cannot deny that Poland has suffered greatly at the hands of her neighbours. No-one should attempt to belittle or cover up the suffering they have endured. I hope that people can understand that for me at least, that is not my intention. Moreover one wrong doing or injustice is not reason to allow the law to be broken. A horse stolen so that a battle can be won, is still just a horse stolen for the owner of that horse.

Countries are not about justice, in the sense that it applies to the individual. Nations can be guilty of crimes and still be judged as being justified. The dropping of the bomb on Japan was probably a war crime in the narrowest of views, but in my view entirely justified. In the end it saved more lives than it cost. 

In the case of the Russians, I cant make much sense or justify the crimes committed after the war. But whilst I don't condone , or even profess to know what it might have been like, I have to come forward and say that I can understand why the individual soldiers of the Red Army behaved that way. They had fought a most terrible war, and fought and died in their millions. Most of them did not believe they would live to see the next day. They ran amok and committed some pretty heinous crimes. Only a few were caught, or more correctly brought to justice. Those that were caught usually were punished by execution, so in a perverse way there was at least some justice. .

The allies, in the finish did sell out Poland, but an entire war was fought because of promises that had been made to that country. Britain fought and virtually destroyed itself in the name of a principal.....the sovereign right of Poland to exist. We can quibble about details and subsequent events, but that was the reason Britain went to war. Unquestionably. In the same way as it had done for Belgium in 1914. 

In a perfect world, we could have restored full polish sovereignty to Poland in 1945. The west was given promises in 1945 by the Russians that free elections would be held. That never happened, and by the time this became apparent, our ability to do anything without destroying ourselves had passed.

My background is that I have a step father who fought for Germany, a grandfather who fought for the allies (WWI), and a grandfather-in law who fought for Stalin. in the various conversations I had with all of them, a few things that come clear, is that most of your actions during a war are so that you can survive. Its not about morals or the rule of law. cicero said that in war the first casualty is the law, or truth. 

What we know is that Poland suffered terribly, and we could not keep all the promises that we gave. Germany invaded the country, was intent on destroying the population, they were stopped by the Soviets, but Soviet rule itself contained many injustices.

Reactions: Like Like:
5 | Like List reactions


----------



## nuuumannn (May 12, 2015)

The saddest point about this anniversary is that the Russians are using it as a demonstration of their military and ideological superiority and thus as a promotion of Russia (and Russia alone) as the victors, regardless of other factors, which does twist its true meaning. They are using it to make themselves look good and to make Russians feel good about themselves. One thing about Russia is that despite being a huge country with massive resources and a powerful armed forces, it seems to have a huge inferiority complex. Always keen to prove it is tough enough and strong in competition with the 'West'; Russia uses the premise of feeling surrounded to justify its might, yet beneath it all, it feels weak and has to make up for it by 'appearing' strong and right all the time.

Unfortunately there does not exist in Russia a tradition of accuracy and truthfulness in the media, combine this with a past of forcing its citizens to comply with State wishes means that often its people are none the wiser and will readily believe what they are told by the State. Although Russians who choose not to believe everything that is force fed to them are aware of the realities, however uncomfortable, about their motherland, there is little they can do to change it in the face of state sponsored deception.

Reactions: Like Like:
3 | Like List reactions


----------



## imalko (May 12, 2015)

nuuumannn said:


> The saddest point about this anniversary is that the Russians are using it as a demonstration of their military and ideological superiority and thus as a promotion of Russia (and Russia alone) as the victors, regardless of other factors, which does twist its true meaning...



The traditional Victory day parade _is_ about commemorating the war's end as much as a demonstration of power and promotion of Russia. It had been such since 1945.

Have you heard Putin's speech during the parade? Not forgetting the decisive role of Soviet Union, he acknowledged the contribution of all other nations in victory over the Fascism, from the resistance groups in occupied countries to the war effort of it's Allies France, Britain and USA.


----------



## v2 (May 12, 2015)

imalko said:


> Have you heard Putin's speech during the parade? Not forgetting the decisive role of Soviet Union, he acknowledged the contribution of all other nations in victory over the Fascism, from the resistance groups in occupied countries to the war effort of it's Allies France, Britain and USA.



and any word about Poland...


----------



## Njaco (May 12, 2015)

I wish the other Allies had participated . Otherwise it does look self serving just like the other various celebrations around the world. Maybe they will make amends at the 75th. or the 100th just like the celebrations for the end of WWI. There was a celebration for the end of WWI, wasn't there?


----------



## imalko (May 12, 2015)

> and any word about Poland...



Not sure, but think that Poland was not mentioned specifically.



> I wish the other Allies had participated. Otherwise it does look self serving just like the other various celebrations around the world.



Well, they _were_ invited but apparently decided to boycott the celebration. Last year the east-west tensions were already high, but Putin did attend the D-Day 70th anniversary celebration. I believe it was a right thing to do on his part. Obviously western leaders think otherwise.

It was not so long ago, when western troops marched alongside the Russians on the Red Square. I believe it was on the Victory Day 65th anniversary celebration in 2010. Foreign contingents included troops from USA, UK, France and Poland.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## michaelmaltby (May 12, 2015)

This sums it all up rather nicely:

Matthew Fisher: Western no-shows rain on Vladimir Putin?s Victory Day parade | National Post


----------



## imalko (May 12, 2015)

Mister Fisher forgot to mention that apart from Chinese president,on the Victory Day celebration there were also present: prime minister of Slovakia, Czech president, Serbian president, UN General Secretary, representatives of India, etc. Agreed, not a high profile as key western players, but still people who, in my opinion, see beyond current politics and pay their respect and honor the sacrifices made to defeat the Nazism.

Alongside the Russian military, troops from former Soviet Republics, China, India and Serbia also marched on the Red Square on Saturday.


----------



## michaelmaltby (May 12, 2015)

Fair enough, Igor


----------



## razor1uk (May 12, 2015)

The western Murdoch led media are just as culpable in spreading propaganda to those with susceptable brains as the Russians. While I do agree that some of Russia's current actions are certainly imperialistic and dangerous; Chechnyia, Ossetia, Georgia, Astrakhan/Aberbijain(spellings?) now Ukraine etc.

Some of in my mind is to keep what little control is left upon those more extreme and hardcore elements that exist within Russian by letting certain actions and traditions be turned a blind eye to (like Maskurovka - masked 'volunteer' fighters viewed as a form of religiously sanctioned warefare 'of the people by the people') and using these and those conflicts as a pressure valve to feed those who want to fight something or someone towards, instead of being trapped and thus against Putin, or the Russian State(s). 


*IMHO*(the fllowing are all MO) this includes the most ironic and sickest peoples, Extremists that are both espouse both Natsism and Stalinistic extreme tendencies mixed with some contrived and twisted interpretations from selectively chosen readings from Othodoxy teachings /or by some Orthodox Clergy trying to secure income and support for their churches/themselves by dubious means.

Hilter Stalin were both extreme Socialists that were so right left they seem like cousins together, that're more inbred than any redneck/fenlander/trolls etc, are usually depicted as.
Natsism Stalinism are 5 past 12 o'clock and 5 to 12 o'clock on the political clock scale to me
Where as Liberal, not in the way the average US citizen seems to thinks a Liberal is (ignoring its one of their fundamental rights to choose/be), in UK/EU is perhaps 15 to 30 past 12 o'clock, 
and most in UK EU could think that the Republicans are between 25 and 10 to 12 o'clock.


----------



## nuuumannn (May 13, 2015)

> Alongside the Russian military, troops from former Soviet Republics, China, India and Serbia also marched on the Red Square on Saturday



Yet no US, British nor French participation; Russian allies in the victory against Nazism.

Don't get me wrong, Igor; I have enormous respect for the Russians and the time I spent there was terrific, apart from the really bad food and sh!tty hotels, the Russian people I have met are, after initial reservedness, warm and friendly, but bill boards celebrating Stalin? Massed 'Soviet' style parades through Red Square and the actions of Putin's government over the last couple of years, the complete denials, cover ups and fabrications behind the loss of MH 17, the needless and pointless hostility and loss of life is totally unnecessary and uncalled for in this day and age. The big question is why? Russia has no need to feel 'threatened' by the West. If Putin does, it's a situation he has created of his own making, not only that, but his government's actions are worsening the situation for his country and his people.

Reactions: Like Like:
3 | Like List reactions


----------



## imalko (May 13, 2015)

Well, victory parades are not Putin's invention. They were around for 70 years...  
Does Russia have reasons to feel threatened by the west? I'm afraid it does. The actions of the world's sole superpower since the end of cold war are the proof of that. Hostility and the loss of life are of course tragic in any age. Don't want to be misunderstood here, I'm not saying I approve all Putin's actions, my point is that I understand the necessity to defend one's strategic interests in his own backyard. Isn't America doing the same or even more all around the Globe? Bottom line, my friend, let us just acknowledge that we have different view on the international developments and leave it at that.

A little nitpicking about the participants of this year's parade. As I already said, the western Allies _were_ invited, but didn't show up. Out of those who participated, Indian troops did fight in the European theatre I believe and soldiers from all former Soviet Republics were part of the Red Army same as the Russians. As for participation of Serbia, her contribution in WW2, though as a part of Yugoslavia,was far from insignificant. Over 1.700.000 of our countrymen from all corners of Yugoslavia (but majority of them were Serbs) lost their lives in the struggle against the Fascism. In Europe this was the third largest loss of life in comparison to the country population after Poland and Soviet Union.


----------



## pbehn (May 13, 2015)

I have no love for Putin but I must say I have some sympathy with the Russians position. The French and many military historians still say what a military genius Napoleon was. The Crimean war and the "Great Game" was the old empires of France and Britain forcing their will on Russia. The German invasion of Russia was a barbaric episode. Russia is heartily sick of European invasions and chicanery. In light of the past the EU conduct especially in Ukraine was irresponsible to the point of stupidity.

As others have said I believe as a Brit it was churlish of Britain not to send a representative.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## razor1uk (May 13, 2015)

Delete this post please, internet browser crashing issues...


----------



## razor1uk (May 13, 2015)

While I agree with pbehn, I thik sending a representative would confuse the the past celebration of eventual victory of heinous despotism with support for the current and future acts of the Putin-ocrasy, and so we didn't stand in the way of other Commonwealth countries with military industial links to Russia attending.

I do also agree that like the Cuban Missile Crisis which was started by US Missiles being based in Turkey before then, that the EU and the US do have some poop on their boots in painting Putinocrasy into a corner - although he his Generals and their _Maskirovka_ forces have done enough of that poop spreading themselves ingonored/missed chances to stop the escalation and make Russia more like the hero, so that now they are a fellow instigator assistant to the worsening situation. 

All sides have somewhat for their own media acted in this area, albeit to generate another 'universal enemy' to foster political support for themselves, perhaps to pass unpopular goverenment measures or make themm more palatable, to extend control over those who'd risk attacking their own by directing them against something worse/acceptable etc, and with the prospect of future trade deals, and some 'in the field' R&D of military elint, e-warefare kit too.


----------



## v2 (May 13, 2015)

The problem is that today's Russia increasingly resembles Stalin's Russia. Russia (or Putin and his guys from KGB) is also hypocritical and hating their neighbors like Stalin's Russia. Russia has murdered innocent passengers MH17 flight and its own citizens (for example Mr. Niemcow and many many more). That's all. Ok, they haven't Gulags now... but how long?


----------



## razor1uk (May 13, 2015)

Don't get me wrong, I think since Putin failed to stop the rebels following their failed attempt to down a Russian or some other Slavic owned/filled airliner, getting MH17 instead, anything but the Putinocrasies complete sealing of its own border and rounding up its civilian 'masked volunteers' trying to cross into the disputed areas will only let him//them think they can keep it going longer.

Watch... Dispatches; Chechnya, The Dirty War, Ross Kemps Gangs; Russia's Neo Nazis, and

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLSzqskAtA4_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuB0uMZZdVI_


----------



## imalko (May 13, 2015)

> The problem is that today's Russia increasingly resembles Stalin's Russia. Russia (or Putin and his guys from KGB) is also hypocritical and hating their neighbors like Stalin's Russia. Russia has murdered innocent passengers MH17 flight and its own citizens (for example Mr. Niemcow and many many more). That's all. Ok, they haven't Gulags now... but how long?



I believe that's a simplistic and little over exaggerated view of current relations Dominik. Don't think that Putin is such a baddie as presented in some media. Also, I'm afraid that many years will pass before we learn the truth and exact circumstances behind tragic events in Ukraine like the MH17 crash, Odessa massacre, etc. If that ever happens.

However, as said before in earlier posts, the Poles have their own reasons to be distrustful towards Russia since Communist times or even before. So, I understand your viewpoint. It's a shame actually. We, the Slavs, should stick together.


----------



## michaelmaltby (May 13, 2015)

"....We, the Slavs, should stick together. "

Under Russian leadership?? ... like back in 1914? That worked out well, didn't it.

I guess the non-Slavic Estos, Balts, Hungarian Ugrics, etc. shouldn't get their hopes up, eh?


----------



## pbehn (May 13, 2015)

It was a VE day commemoration, my father was on the arctic convoys helping out heroic soviet brothers in arms. The people on the convoys military and civilian were heroic with few actual heroes. In most cases you got sunk and died of cold or you lived. I think for such an event present day politics could be set to one side.


----------



## pbehn (May 13, 2015)

I dont believe in goodies and baddies any more. Putins Russia may be looking more and more like Stalins but the European Union is heading just as fast down the road to undemocratic totalitarianism.


----------



## GrauGeist (May 13, 2015)

pbehn said:


> ...I think for such an event present day politics could be set to one side.


It should have been just that, a remembrance of the huge sacrifices by all people, military and civilian alike regardless of what nation they were from.

But Putin turned it into a Октя́брьская револю́ция parade instead of a solemn occasion. He only allowed one WWII veteran from each district as guests during the review instead having them all present.

The rememberences in other countries were all about the occasion, included all WWII veterans as participants and had an air of respect.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## nuuumannn (May 14, 2015)

> Does Russia have reasons to feel threatened by the west? I'm afraid it does.



Why? What has the actions of the United States got to do with Russia feeling insecure? I thought Russia and America and the West for that matter were Allies. Aren't allies supposed to look after each other's interests in times of hardship? Surely if Putin feels insecure, he can arrange some kind of treaty with his allies in the name of peace and continuing good relations, not denounce their intentions (however questionable), then invade a neighbouring country. And what has invading the Ukraine got to do with the United States? Granted, the US's actions in the past decade have been seriously questionable under Bush, but surely emulating the actions of the nation you are accusing of being a threat is not going to solve anything.

You are right Igor, we can gain no ground and must agree to disagree on this. Sadly, the biggest losers in all this are the victims of Putin's questionable foreign policy - ordinary people just trying to make a living while their masters play God.

No, Putin might not have invented the parade, but surely reinvigorating it does nothing but intimidate neighbouring nations. It's a bit like building a nuclear missile and defending it by stating that I wasn't the first, and I'm only doing it to defend my borders...

Reactions: Bacon Bacon:
1 | Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## imalko (May 14, 2015)

> Under Russian leadership?? ... like back in 1914? That worked out well, didn't it.



Didn't say that, but I guess if we had let ourselves get invaded without opposition, things might have gone better back then...
However, here's one example of Slavic solidarity. Here in Belgrade, a Victory Day was commemorated by several manifestations and, among others, one was organized at the Cemetery of Liberators of Belgrade. Wreaths and flowers were placed at the monument to Soviet soldiers. One wreath was placed together by the Military attaches of Russian and Ukrainian embassy.



> But Putin turned it into a Октя́брьская револю́ция parade instead of a solemn occasion. He only allowed one WWII veteran from each district as guests during the review instead having them all present.



My friend, I'm afraid you are mistaken. Granted that Victory Parades in Russia are more then just commemorative events and always bear a political message. This dates back to the Soviet times. However, I doubt that any other country respect it's WW2 veterans more then Russia. Surely there are limitations in number of people that can occupy the stages overlooking the parade? There were also other commemorative manifestations on that day in Moscow and other cities. Have you seen the reports about "Immortal regiment" rally? People got to the streets in their thousands carrying pictures of their relatives and ancestors who died or were wounded in WW2. Very impressive sight. Putin was at the head of the column in Moscow carrying picture of his father who was wounded during the siege of Leningrad. As said before, there were commemorative manifestations held in other cities. The one held at Volgograd (former Stalingrad) was attended by German Minister of Foreign Affairs.



> What has the actions of the United States got to do with Russia feeling insecure?



I don't want to get into an argument about current international relations, as we already agreed to disagree about this, but let me try to elaborate. Since the end of the cold war as Russia struggled to get back on her feet, we witnessed U.S. led military interventions all around the world - from former Yugoslavia to the Middle East. The First Gulf War was authorized by UN Security Council. For many other actions no one bothered with such details. Whatever the intentions, I don't see that things in the Middle East got better because of that. Meanwhile, in Europe we have NATO incorporating new member states and expanding ever closer to the Russian borders. You don't honestly believe that missile shield planned to be placed in eastern European countries is directed against Iran? How can Russia feel secure if deprived of ability to retaliate against potential nuclear attack? Then we have Ukrainian crisis, which started when legally elected president was violently overthrown with possible involvement of foreign intelligence agencies. This started the spiral of violence in that country which we still don't know where it will lead. The annexation of Crimea was a move which Putin was forced to do if to protect Russia strategic interests. Some veil of democracy was kept though. People of the Crimea (in majority ethnic Russians) voted for it on the referendum. There was no violence. (This was not the case in Kosovo for example, which was forcibly taken from Serbia in 1999 by the means of Albanian terrorists armed insurrection and NATO military intervention.)

I remember reading somewhere Putin's statement about Crimea; "We will always welcome NATO troops as our guests in Sevastopol, but we can never allow for us to be their guests over there." And this would have happened sooner or later I believe, if no action had been taken. (Can you imagine some other foreign power ever taking over Perl Harbor from the Americans?) He also allegedly said that Russia offers her hand for cooperation on equal terms, however, "apparently Americans are not looking for Allies but vassals." Looking at international relations this just might be true. We live in a world where sole superpower respect no one interests but her own. I might be mistaken, but perhaps a multipolar world would be a better place...


----------



## v2 (May 14, 2015)

pbehn said:


> It was a VE day commemoration, my father was on the arctic convoys helping out heroic soviet brothers in arms. The people on the convoys military and civilian were heroic with few actual heroes. In most cases you got sunk and died of cold or you lived. I think for such an event present day politics could be set to one side.



I am full of admiration for all ordinary Allied soldiers and sailors.Unwittingly they gave their lives for Stalin's totalitarian system.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## michaelmaltby (May 14, 2015)

"...Don't think that Putin is such a baddie as presented in some media. .."

So the population of the Baltic Republics are simply paranoid ..... while Russia is just doing what it has always done, naturally.

Baltic military chiefs to call for permanent NATO presence | Reuters


----------



## imalko (May 14, 2015)

Instead of creating artificial tensions and provoking Russia, the governments of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania would be better of dealing with disturbing Neo-Nazi tendencies in their countries. Did you know that parades in honor of Waffen SS veterans, involving veterans from the Latvian Legion and the 20th Estonian SS Division and their supporters, are held annually in the Baltic states? And this is going on for years.

Calls to ban Baltic neo-Nazi marches | The Jewish Chronicle


----------



## pbehn (May 14, 2015)

An unelected nobody called Romano Prodi who was as far as I know never elected to the post but was appointed as President of the EU commission declared today that EU must merge its armed forces and have a single army and airforce. The prospect of that bunch of swivel eyed lunatics being in charge of Europes hardware is scary, from my experience with Blair and Cameron in UK when they have a toy they want to play with it regardless of the consequences and the EU commission is even worse. There would certainly be a conflict with Russia within a few years.


----------



## pbehn (May 14, 2015)

v2 said:


> I am full of admiration for all ordinary Allied soldiers and sailors.Unwittingly they gave their lives for Stalin's totalitarian system.



My father was in the RN the men on the merchant ships were civilians, not volunteers in the same sense because it was their job. My father was under no illusions what was going on he spent the winter in a soviet prison, the Russians found it easier to lock all sailors and seamen up rather than provide proper accommodation and keep some order.


----------



## michaelmaltby (May 14, 2015)

"....disturbing Neo-Nazi tendencies in their countries. Did you know that parades in honor of Waffen SS veterans, involving veterans from the ...."

An internal matter .... hardly the same as declaring cyber war on country's IT networks as the Russians did to Estonia in revenge for moving a Soviet "Liberation" statue to a war cemetery from a public square. You don't "Liberate" a country that doesn't want you and that you illegally occupied in the first place.

Estonia isn't fascist any more than Sweden or Finland, Igor ... and Russia is playing a very dangerous game considering how bloody their hands are. The EU isn't a fascist alliance either Igor ... but Ukrainians who desire to attach to a democratic , economic zone are fascist .... hardly. Fear mongering ... stirring old boils ... is Putin's game. Germany embedded the Nazis because they failed to accept the reality of their history ... they stepped backwards into German mythology and cultism ... Russia is walking backwards.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## imalko (May 15, 2015)

Things are not that simple and one sided as you're trying to portray. Neo-Nazi movements exist all over Europe, but they are little more then marginal occurrence. That doesn't make EU a "fascist alliance" (your words, not mine). However, when such a movement and ideology is supported by political structures or even a state government, that's dangerous and hardly an "internal" matter. I'm sorry you don't see that.

No one questions the legitimate desire of Ukrainian people for a better life, but I'm afraid that NATO and EU couldn't care less about their desires. Don't think that last year's Maidan revolt which started it all was spontaneous. It was instigated. It's all a part of larger geopolitical struggle in which one side is trying to keep it's dominant position while other tries to gain a better position herself. The government in Kiev with extreme nationalistic elements, which have blood of their countrymen on their hands, is just a tool in that struggle. It will be left down the drain if the powers that be decide so. And the people? Unfortunately, the ordinary people, regardless of nationality, will suffer either way.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## michaelmaltby (May 15, 2015)

Estonian war veterans marching to commemorate their military service are not Neo Nazis, Igor. 1,000's of Estos, Balts, Belgians, Spaniards, Frenchmen, Danes, and Finns - including Jewish Finns served with distinction on the eastern Front - Waffen SS or no Waffen SS - they served because they saw that Communism was the scourge of Christian Western values which it was and which it is. Italians, Hungarians and Romanians fought, died and were enslaved for losing to the Soviets ... these men were also Neo Nazis, Igor.

As for Ukrainians ... I am surprised you even question their desire to be closer to the west after their treatment at the hands of Stalin and his thugs.

If Europe is experiencing a neo-Nazis rebirth, Igor, I put it to you that the cause of that unrest is the creeping socialism politically correct dogma that has swept Europe, the British Isles, and alas, Canada and the USA.

Communism is blind DOGMA ... that ignores the truth ... at the peril of those who are subjugated to it, and it has failed everywhere it has been installed. No one wants a Communist government except party apparatchiks.


----------



## imalko (May 15, 2015)

> As for Ukrainians ... I am surprised you even question their desire to be closer to the west after their treatment at the hands of Stalin and his thugs.



Read again what I wrote Michael. I'm not doing that.

There's a difference between commemorating ones honorable military service and glorifying criminal Nazi ideology and the crimes committed in the name of that ideology. Once again you simplify things Michael.

One more thing Michael. Communism was never installed the way it was envisioned by Marks. Anywhere.


----------



## Marcel (May 15, 2015)

That is because Marx ideas were an idealistic vision, but not a practical option. I think the closest you can get to his vision is being social democratic, a less radical, but much more practical view. Any further and you get the stuff the soviets came up with. 

But guys, I think we should be careful here, there is a reason why politics are not allowed on this forum


----------



## michaelmaltby (May 15, 2015)

"... Once again you simplify things Michael."

Simple-minded, you're saying. Igor.


----------



## pbehn (May 15, 2015)

Marcel said:


> That is because Marx ideas were an idealistic vision, but not a practical option. I think the closest you can get to his vision is being social democratic, a less radical, but much more practical view. Any further and you get the stuff the soviets came up with.
> 
> But guys, I think we should be careful here, there is a reason why politics are not allowed on this forum



I remember having a long discussion about Marx in China. Much of communism was based on his writing about the condition of the working class in Manchester in 1844 when he was a young man, it wasnt published in English until 1891. In the 47 years that passed the condition of people in Manchester had changed completely due to increased wages improved housing sanitation transport etc. People moved to Manchester during the industrial revolution because life in the countryside was worse and life in the cities improved when people found out what caused cholera typhoid etc. No Marxist ever bothered to discover the facts because actually all they wanted was a revolution to put them in the place of the present rulers. The Chinese I worked with found it hard to understand why there was no communist revolution in England, they didnt want a revolution in China just more money a better house car and TV, like most in the world.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## razor1uk (May 15, 2015)

I think there are too many differences between most of the so called 'West' Europeans (inc, Central, Norhtern, Southern Western) some parts of East Europe, depending upon ideological cultural histories, historical development of politcal religious connections through time, and the general levels of education vs. the varied levels cultural (../national racial) histories given/purported as fact.

Russia all the countries that think they are part of some 'Russian Empire' are all in reality very young vs. the others in Europe that they disagree with, that is not to say the cultures, motives, some parts of histories and the peoples themselves are just as young, they are not, they are as old as the rest of us, but that the stabiltiy, acceptability and acceptance of power, institutions and controlling forces are more immature, reactive, derogitory and likely to abuse power to keep and enforce it.

But with so many tribes, plagues, wars, migrations, religious exchanges and cleansings, what is left is a culture of distrust, feigned ignorance for self preservation and sucking up to the most powerful. Who could blame the generations of peoples invaded and counter invaded from tmes long before the Romans, Thracians/Dacians, Macadonians and earlier etc, let alone the Byzantines, Turks, Ottomans, or Apostical , Roman Chruch, the Greek and Russian Orthodoxies or the flavours of Islam Judaism, all the while trying to farm enough to eat for your family whithout being killed for wrong action or apparent mis-deed or some 'political' reason.

Some say simplify, others, those books gives the facts, the other, this and that are only correct. I think, all ar correct in some form, albeit some books picked facts are used to guide and persuade thoughts, and that is all without taking in to additional account, the languages influences upon their/its users - how the structure, sayings, mannerisms and the language jokes all help to shape, steer and co-erce thought, ideas mindsets within a cultural/national/racial moulding of peoples.


----------



## GregP (May 17, 2015)

We sat back and waited for the USSR to win, Parsifal?

Let's see ... the U.S.A. ramped up bombing tonnage every year and dropped more in 1944 on Germany than in all the rest of the war years all combined ... and we were sitting back and waiting for something? You might want to tell that to all the aircrew and ground troops who died in the west. I bet THEY didn't know it and that doesn't even mention naval war.

I'll have to disagree with you here, Parsifal. Not altogether a surprise and it's not an attempt to start an escalting discussion, either. Just a simple, "I don't think so," at least from a U.S. point of view.

The U.S.A is as far removed from the Soviet Front as is possible on a planet of this size ... half a planet away ... an entire ocean AND continent away on both sides, and we had supply lines reaching from the U.S.A. to Europe, the Pacific rim, China, Burma, India, Pacific Islands, Australia and even some to Africa, the North Sea and other points of interest, all simultaneously. Given this and the reality of the state of readiness we "enjoyed" in 1941, I'll have to say we gave it pretty good effort.

The Soviets did what they did and THEN word about it leaked out .. there was no "advance warning of intent to rape eastern Europe and the surrounding area." Yes, we were helping to support the USSR, but were definitely not welcome to fight alongside them on any battlefield, especially in their own territory or any adjacent.

All in all, I'm not too sure what the U.S.A. or the U.K. might have been expected to have done about it as far as prevention goes. We had yet to defeat the Nazis in the West, but were closing in when all this happened. Being accused of waiting is sort of like accidentally walking in on a robbery in progress and then being asked later why you weren't there sooner.

Like most people I decry what happened. But we (the U.S.A., U.K., Canada, and Australia) didn't particpate in the Soviet attrocities, didn't know about them in advance, and most certainly did not condone them. Many years of cold war should at least lend some credence to that assertion.

All that being said, I can certainly see why it might seem that way to the peoples to whom all this happened, who had little to no knowledge at the time of the situation the western Allies were facing. They were VERY occupied with what was happening to them at the time. It might seem as if we abandonded them but, in reality, we had little to no presence there to start with and little in the way of intelligence assets with which to gather information for the most part ... only some small intelligence that came from sympathetic resistance groups with access to radios that could be picked up by us or messages that could be smuggled out by people or public mail.

There were no satellites, no high-flying spy planes with long enough range to look, and little military reason to spy on erstwhile allies in the form of the Soviet Union while we were struggling to win ascendency in the west.

If I am not mistaken, the U.K., U.S.A., Canada, Australia, the Free French, Mexico, and other countries in South America and around the world were fighting on fronts where they could ... but there was never any thought of "invading" the Soviet Union to fight Germany from the north, south, east, and west simultaneously all by ourselves while warring with the Soviet Union at the same time over our "invasion" of their sovreign territory.

We expected the Russians to follow the rules of war as we understood them ... and they didn't. They apparently had limited or no experience with the western concept of "rules of war." I may be wrong, but I think at least the leaders still don't. I doubt we'd expect them to adhere in future conflicts, given their track record in WWII, the cold war, and now beyond the cold war. They might give lip-service to it in a declared war, but very probably not in some regional conflict or semi-local uprising.


----------



## Marcel (May 17, 2015)

Greg, I don't believe the western powers didn't know about the soviets and their behaviour. I think they did know, Chuchill for sure. But I also believe they had no choice. Let us remember that they were fighting on many fronts, Pacific and Europe. You only have so much power left. At the time of the German surrender, they were still fighting the Japanese and there was no sign that that fight would be over soon. I can imagine that they were not willing to risk fighting the Red Army which was on full steam. They would have risked loosing the western countries in Europe as well. But that does not change that the Polish were abandoned, although not willingly.


----------



## pbehn (May 17, 2015)

The conduct of Stalin and Molotov was well known in the west before the war even started. Churchill found meeting these people who had so much blood on their hands a little disturbing. Poland was betrayed in terms of the start of the war but starting a new war to fight a war against the Soviet Union would have been a disaster. The western allies were worn down by the war Stalin didnt understand the concept.

It is always possible to say the West could have done more sooner. Africa Greece Italy all drained Germanys resources however even with all the USA Canada and Commonwealth had to throw at D Day it still was not a walk over and could easily have been a massive defeat.


----------



## imalko (May 17, 2015)

One should also not forget that western Allies seriously counted on Soviet Union joining the fight against Japan after German defeat. Why would they risk confronting Stalin when war was still going on and the Soviets were still needed in the fight? Also in 1945 western public opinion was pretty much in Soviet favor because of their heroic struggle against the Nazis.


----------



## nuuumannn (May 17, 2015)

> we witnessed U.S. led military interventions all around the world - from former Yugoslavia to the Middle East.



The former Yugoslavia under Tito didn't want to be a Stalinist puppet and accepted the offer of Marshal Aid from the USA, which Stalin got mad about. Not US intervention, just not wanting to become dominated by the Soviet Union - and why not? Look at what happened in Hungary and Czechoslovakia when they stood up to the Russians. Yes, the USA have dipped in where they have not been welcome, but pot, kettle, black...

You know Imalko, you guys should stop rabbiting on about the United States and all the bad stuff it has done and as being a threat to your security and consider what might happen if the Russians unleashed their aggression on your country, which is a lot closer and provides more of a threat to your national security than the USA does at this point in time.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## imalko (May 18, 2015)

I fully acknowledge and appreciate US aid to Tito's Yugoslavia after breakup with Stalin. It's undeniable this helped my country not to share the fate of Czechoslovakia or Hungary. You misunderstood my point, because I was talking about events which took place after Tito's death. About bloody breakup of Yugoslavia in the nineties and foreign involvement in it. It was USA and NATO that unleashed their aggression (as you put it) on my country in 1999, not Russia.


----------



## michaelmaltby (May 18, 2015)

"....It was USA and NATO that unleashed their aggression (as you put it) on my country in 1999, not Russia."

Whatever the historical rationale, there was a mess of nasty stuff going on in (your country) former Yugoslavia in 1999 which shouldn't have been happening in a civilized, sophisticated society like Europe 's .... and which Europe was not addressing effectively ... as always ... the USA got called in ... Canada too. You guys start a fire and then blame the firemen for meddling ... sounds like Missouri or Detroit where they riot and then snipe at the firemen.

It's a shame what happened after the strong man's grip slipped ... he held it all together. But it's a shame you couldn't manage a velvet dissolution like Czechoslovakia. Simplistic, I know, but that's how it appears from North America's privileged perspective, Igor. 

MM
Proud Canadian


----------



## imalko (May 18, 2015)

It seems I'm repeatedly being drawn back into debate which by now have nothing to do with VE day. 



> Whatever the historical rationale, there was a mess of nasty stuff going on in (your country) former Yugoslavia in 1999 which shouldn't have been happening in a civilized, sophisticated society like Europe 's .... and which Europe was not addressing effectively ... as always ... the USA got called in ... Canada too. You guys start a fire and then blame the firemen for meddling ...



Agreed with the first sentence... However - and here's the core of our different viewpoint I believe - called in by who? Authorized by who? Self appointed is more like it. But the greatest problem is that, once they got involved, they weren't impartial. To use your analogy with firemen, it's like putting down the fire in one part of the town but additionally stirring up the flames in the other part and letting it burn. I suspect something like that happens when one isn't really a firefighter, just pretending to be, and pursues his own agenda instead.



> It's a shame what happened after the strong man's grip slipped ... he held it all together. But it's a shame you couldn't manage a velvet dissolution like Czechoslovakia. Simplistic, I know, but that's how it appears from North America's privileged perspective...



Finally we agree on something Michael. It really is a shame. I think so too. However, there's too much history, too much bad blood, too much background behind it all here in the Balkans spanning back to the years of WW2 and far beyond. And I'm afraid it's not over yet (just look what's currently happening in Macedonia). It's too much to elaborate here and now, and also something which can't be easily understood from "simplistic and privileged North America's perspective". But that won't stop you from meddling, right? 


Since we mentioned Tito, I remembered something about him which might be just apocryphal, but maybe it's true. After breakup with Stalin in 1948, the Soviets made several attempts on Tito's life. After all of them failed and assassins were caught, Tito allegedly send a note to Stalin saying: "Stop sending people to kill me. If you don't, I'll be forced so send one of mine to Moscow. And rest assured I won't have to send another one." 
True of false, it just proves what a world class player he was...


----------



## michaelmaltby (May 18, 2015)

Just finished reading "The Siege of Vienna - 1683". The centuries long campaign up and down the Danube between the Christian Hapsburgs and the Moslem Turkish Ottomans read like nothing I've ever read about any campaign. The Balkans region is a geopolitical fault line between political/cultural "plates" ... as in tectonics. I think you over simplify the root causes of your regional upheaval. Blaming the US or NATO for intervention doesn't make y'all innocent by-standers. Tito wasn't Prince Eugene


----------



## imalko (May 18, 2015)

> I think you over simplify the root causes of your regional upheaval. Blaming the US or NATO for intervention doesn't make y'all innocent by-standers.



Read again my post Michael. I just said the opposite from that...
I'm not absolving us (the people of this region) from anything. What I'm saying is that biased and one-sided western approach is not solving anything and probably making things worse. The Balkan "powder keg" will explode again sooner rather than later with that approach.

Care to elaborate Tito/Prince Eugene comparison...? I'm not sure I understand your point.


----------



## michaelmaltby (May 18, 2015)

"...Care to elaborate Tito/Prince Eugene comparison...? "

Only that he was an accomplished soldier, strategist and 'man of the occasion' and the Hapsburg citizenry came to believe that he represented the defense of their empire. Tito was all of the above but the integrity and unity of a Yugoslav nation couldn't simply reside with _one_ charismatic leader. Hapsburgs lamented "where's our next Prince Eugene" .... meaning ... savior.


----------



## imalko (May 18, 2015)

Agreed. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## GregP (May 18, 2015)

I'm pretty sure we knew generally what we expected from Stalin, but I'm also pretty sure there was no advance warning of the exact nature of what was going on. And as was stated above, you can only concentrate your efforts in so many places at one time.

The U.S.A. fought a holding war in the Pacific until Germany was defeated and then concentrated the main efforts in nthe pacific until that theater was won.

After VJ Day, for the U.S.A. to continue with any warlike effort, we would have had to declare war on somone else to continue the wartiime funding of the level of effort that was deployed in the Pacific. Lacking that, the main effort was to return the vast majority of it home and get back to peacetime spending levels.

However, despite the above, the Western Allies DID let Poland suffer ... though I'm not sure they could have prevented it even with a deliberate full scale invasion. When they DID declare war a little while later, it took a full six years to accomplish getting there with the combined efforts of the major Allied powers.


----------



## stona (Nov 21, 2016)

We should never forget the 'small people' in all of this.
Just today I was contacted by a celebrant friend. She had just met the family of a gentleman who recently passed away at the age of 92.
The family knew he had volunteered for the Navy at 18, served on the Arctic convoys, and had recently been presented with the Ushakov medal by the Russian Federation. That was about all they knew, not even the name of any of his ships. Unsurprisingly he never talked about the convoys, only about the good times he had enjoyed in Liverpool.
To say I was happy to give my friend a little information on these convoys, to attempt to put this man's service in to some context would be an understatement. He was just an ordinary bloke doing his bit, but it mattered, it was important, and we must not forget.
Steve


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

Some polish are dumbs nazi start to exterminate and enslave the polish
and prone their lands and now polish marionetes complains on communist dictature ? Its grows in populations under soviet "occupation" .

The germans too hypocrite... listen you start a war of genocide for vital space in the est start the extermination of russians and many others ... And when you lost you get lucky because the evil Stalin dont agree a revenge "eyes for eyes blood for blood " that should be a extermination of all germans under soviet occupation or minimum 20 milions of germans


----------



## Marcel (Dec 27, 2020)

George88 said:


> Some polish are dumbs nazi start to exterminate and enslave the polish
> and prone their lands and now polish marionetes complains on communist dictature ? Its grows in populations under soviet "occupation" .
> 
> The germans too hypocrite... listen you start a war of genocide for vital space in the est start the extermination of russians and many others ... And when you lost you get lucky because the evil Stalin dont agree a revenge "eyes for eyes blood for blood " that should be a extermination of all germans under soviet occupation or minimum 20 milions of germans


Wtf are you on about? You think communist occupation was a walk in the park? Have been living under a stone the last 70 years?


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

Marcel said:


> Wtf are you on about? You think communist occupation was a walk in the park? Have been living under a stone the last 70 years?



Are you serious compare a extermination to a dictature ?!


----------



## Marcel (Dec 27, 2020)

George88 said:


> Are you serious compare a extermination to a dictature ?!


Stalin was responsible for even more people exterminated than Hitler. Read your history.


----------



## Crimea_River (Dec 27, 2020)



Reactions: Funny Funny:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

Marcel said:


> Stalin was responsible for even more extermination than Hitler. Read your history.


Facts ? You mistake the losses of a revolution and civil war to Stalins purges ...


----------



## Marcel (Dec 27, 2020)

George88 said:


> Facts ? You mistake the losses of a revolution and civil war to Stalins purges ...


30 milion were lost in th USSR between 1926 and 1936 alone, all thanks to your beloved Stallin. And it’s hard to contribute those losses to civil war or revolution. Compared to Stalin, mr. Adolf just started to play.
I suggest you take your revisionist commi views elsewhere.


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

Marcel said:


> 30 milion were lost in th USSR between 1926 and 1936 alone, all thanks to your beloved Stallin. Compared to Stalin, mr. Adolf just started to play.
> I suggest you take your revisionist commi views elsewhere.



Source please


----------



## Marcel (Dec 27, 2020)

George88 said:


> Source please


Honderd miljoen slachtoffers. de historische prestaties van de Sovjet-Unie - Blik op de Wereld

this book :

Unnatural Deaths in the U.S.S.R.: 1928-1954,” I.G. Dyadkin

is also enlighten. 
I can find more if you want...


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

George88 said:


> Source please



30 milions is not the number of executed but juged for all soviet period including revolution and civil war


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

Marcel said:


> Honderd miljoen slachtoffers. de historische prestaties van de Sovjet-Unie - Blik op de Wereld
> 
> I can find more if you want...


Sure nazi propaganda is good surce


----------



## Marcel (Dec 27, 2020)

George88 said:


> Sure nazi propaganda is good surce


You call that nazi propaganda? On what ground?


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

George88 said:


> 30 milions is not the number of executed but juged for all soviet period including revolution and civil war


After USSR colapse the intern data statistic where published


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

Marcel said:


> You call that nazi propaganda? On what ground?


All .. the declasified soviet data is not a source for you ?


----------



## Marcel (Dec 27, 2020)

George88 said:


> All .. the declasified soviet data is not a source for you ?


Probably as much as Nazi statistics on their crimes would be.


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

Marcel said:


> Honderd miljoen slachtoffers. de historische prestaties van de Sovjet-Unie - Blik op de Wereld
> 
> this book :
> 
> ...


Other author claim 50 100 milions where is the their source ?!
Im talk you about declasified estate arhive of soviet kgb and you talk about some author ? Are you understand


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

Marcel said:


> Probably as much as Nazi statistics on their crimes would be.


The internal statistic of nazi is very fiable source not the public propaganda....


----------



## Marcel (Dec 27, 2020)

George88 said:


> Other author claim 50 100 milions where is the their source ?!
> Im talk you about declasified estate arhive of soviet kgb and you talk about some author ? Are you understand


Why am I even in this pissing contest with you about this? I must be tired. Doesn't matter, even if you are rigth, 30 milion perished because of soviet rule, it's still 30 million. And then you think the poles are silly because they complain about the soviet occupation. Doesn't sound very intelligent to me and not very respectful to our polish friends, telling them to shut up as Hitler was worse.

You're lucky, I usually don't let myself drawn in these kind of yes-no discussions, so you get this one for free. I suggest to be more respectful to other nationalities.


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

George88 said:


> Other author claim 50 100 milions where is the their source ?!
> Im talk you about declasified estate arhive of soviet kgb and you talk about some author ? Are you understand





*Memor*


George88 said:


> Other author claim 50 100 milions where is the their source ?!
> Im talk you about declasified estate arhive of soviet kgb and you talk about some author ? Are you understand




Fiable source:
*Memorial* (Russian: Мемориа́л, IPA: [mʲɪmərʲɪˈaɫ]) was formally established in Moscow in January 1989 as an international historical and civil rights society. Between 1987 and 1990, while the USSR was still in existence, 23 branches of the society were set up and became active.[1] When the Soviet Union collapsed, branches of Memorial in east and south Ukraine remained affiliated to the Russian network.
In 2004, Memorial was among the four recipients of the Right Livelihood Award, for its work in documenting violations of human rights in Russia and other former states in the USSR.[31] Quoting the RLA jury: "... for showing, under very difficult conditions, and with great personal courage, that history must be recorded and understood, and human rights respected everywhere, if sustainable solutions to the legacy of the past are to be achieved."

In the same year, the UN refugee agency (UNHCR) named Memorial as the winner of the annual Nansen Refugee Award for its wide range of services on behalf of forced migrants and internally displaced people in the Russian Federation, as well as refugees from Africa, Asia and the Middle East.[32]

In 2008, Memorial won the Hermann Kesten Prize. In 2009, Memorial won the Sakharov Prize of the European Union, in memory of murdered Memorial activist Natalya Estemirova.[33] Announcing the award, President of the European Parliament Jerzy Buzek said that the assembly hoped "to contribute to ending the circle of fear and violence surrounding human rights defenders in the Russian Federation".[33] Oleg Orlov, the chairman of Memorial, commented that the prize represents "much-needed moral support at a difficult time for rights activists in Russia",[34] and that he considers the prize "a mark of the high value placed on the work of Memorial and that of all of our colleagues - Russian rights activists who are working in a very difficult situation".[35] A cash reward, which comes with the prize, of €50,000 is to be awarded to Memorial in December 2009.[33]

Memorial was awarded the Victor Gollancz Prize by the Society for Threatened Peoples in 2009.[36][37]

On 4 February 2015 Lech Wałęsa nominated Memorial International for the 2014 Nobel Peace Prize [38]


Since the passing of the Russian foreign agent law in July 2012 Memorial in Moscow and Petersburg have come under increasing official pressure. On 4 October 2016 Memorial International was declared a "foreign agent" by the RF Ministry of Justice; the Research and Information Centre at St Petersburg Memorial was also awarded the same title

Bref a prowest considering organisation by russian gouvernement claim :
10 to 39 repressed for all soviet period including revolution civil war and only 1.4 milion of executed for 7 to 9 milion of death of great famine there no prove that it vas a organisated ...


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

Marcel said:


> Why am I even in this pissing contest with you about this? I must be tired. Doesn't matter, even if you are rigth, 30 milion perished because of soviet rule, it's still 30 million. And then you think the poles are silly because they complain about the soviet occupation. Doesn't sound very intelligent to me and not very respectful to our polish friends, telling them to shut up as Hitler was worse.
> 
> You're lucky, I usually don't let myself drawn in these kind of yes-no discussions, so you get this one for free. I suggest to be more respectful to other nationalities.


There no 30 milion perished there 30 milion max of repressed (arrested large majority *acquitted* )
I understand you after all this propaganda is hard to belive and change the point of view


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

George88 said:


> There no 30 milion perished there 30 milion max of repressed (arrested large majority *acquitted* )
> I understand you after all this propaganda is hard to belive and change the point of view


Most revolution where bloody...in french revolution and civil war france lost 7% of their population no one tell today that the french republican regime was a criminal bloody one .... Soviet revolution and civil war 11% of polulation death 

You cant compare hitler that start a war for conquer and exterminate entire nations to Stalin purge or victims of Soviet period 1.4 milion executed


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 27, 2020)

Enough, knock it off with the revisionist BS. The Soviet Occupation of eastern Europe was no different than the Nazi occupations. Soviet genocide and rape of German civilians was no better or justified because of what the Nazis did.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 27, 2020)

Anyone that thinks extermination of 20 million civilians or an entire population is justified is a fool.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 27, 2020)

To say the Polish have nothing to complain about under Soviet rule is pure ignorance. That is putting it nicely.

That does not mean what the Germans did was right. The Nazi regime was evil, and so was the way they treated their occupied lands. Justifying one evil regime (Soviet) over another (Nazi) is pure BS though.


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> To say the Polish have nothing to complain about under Soviet rule is pure ignorance. That is putting it nicely.
> 
> That does not mean what the Germans did was right. The Nazi regime was evil, and so was the way they treated their occupied lands. Justifying one evil regime (Soviet) over another (Nazi) is pure BS though.


How many poles werhe killed under soviet occupation ?


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Anyone that thinks extermination of 20 million civilians or an entire population is justified is a fool.


Are you Blind pro west human right organisation did 1.4 milions execudet for political reason under all soviet period where you find 20 milions ?


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 27, 2020)

George88 said:


> How many poles werhe killed under soviet occupation ?



It is estimated that 100 million deaths occurred under Soviet regimes or supported regimes. Its not just about Poland. Look at the big picture.

The next person to call the Polish people dumb for condemning the oppressive Soviet dictatorship, or says that an entire population of Germans should have been exterminated will not be welcome here.


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> To say the Polish have nothing to complain about under Soviet rule is pure ignorance. That is putting it nicely.
> 
> That does not mean what the Germans did was right. The Nazi regime was evil, and so was the way they treated their occupied lands. Justifying one evil regime (Soviet) over another (Nazi) is pure BS though.


All allies still rape germans why you talk that soviet equal nazi ? Are you a nazi ?


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 27, 2020)

George88 said:


> Are you Blind pro west human right organisation did 1.4 milions execudet for political reason under all soviet period where you find 20 milions ?



Are you dense?

The victims include 200,000 killed during the Red Terror (1918-22); 11 million dead from famine and dekulakization; 700,000 executed during the Great Terror (1937-38); 400,000 more executed between 1929 and 1953; 1.6 million dead during forced population transfers; and a minimum 2.7 million dead in the Gulag, labor colonies and special settlements.


If we add to this list the deaths caused by communist regimes that the Soviet Union created and supported—including those in Eastern Europe, China, Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam and Cambodia—the total number of victims is closer to 100 million. That makes communism the greatest catastrophe in human history.

100 Years of Communism—and 100 Million Dead


----------



## George88 (Dec 27, 2020)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> It is estimated that 100 million deaths occurred under Soviet regimes or supported regimes. Its not just about Poland. Look at the big picture.
> 
> The next person to call the Polish people dumb for condemning the oppressive Soviet dictatorship, or says that an entire population of Germans should have been exterminated will not be welcome here.


Are you Blind pro west human right organisation did 1.4 milions execudet for political reason under all soviet period where you find 100 milions ?


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 27, 2020)

George88 said:


> All allies still rape germans why you talk that soviet equal nazi ?* Are you a nazi ?*



Screw you.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 27, 2020)

My apologies to the forum membership. My behavior was not correct, but I do not take being called a Nazi very lightly.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
3 | Like List reactions


----------



## pbehn (Dec 27, 2020)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> My apologies to the forum membership. My behavior was not correct, but I do not take being called a Nazi very lightly.


No problem, who does? Not here long enough to wish everyone a happy new year.


----------



## Marcel (Dec 27, 2020)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> My apologies to the forum membership. My behavior was not correct, but I do not take being called a Nazi very lightly.


Did not see anything wrong. He calls everything contradicting his stance “nazi propaganda”. There is no decent argument possible then. Calling you a nazi because you disagree is a good reason to ban him.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## GrauGeist (Dec 27, 2020)

I was recently called a Nazi for disagreeing with a person's commentary - I responded "fine, then be prepared to have a black sedan show up at your house at 3 a.m. to drag you off to never be seen again"
They said what the hell did that have to do with Nazis and I responded "because that's what REAL Nazis did. Be glad I'm not a Nazi..."

Reactions: Bacon Bacon:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Snautzer01 (Dec 27, 2020)

GrauGeist said:


> I was recently called a Nazi for disagreeing with a person's commentary - I responded "fine, then be prepared to have a black sedan show up at your house at 3 a.m. to drag you off to never be seen again"
> They said what the hell did that have to do with Nazis and I responded "because that's what REAL Nazis did. Be glad I'm not a Nazi..."


Nkvd did the same with far larger numbers of victims.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## GrauGeist (Dec 27, 2020)

Snautzer01 said:


> Nkvd did the same with far larger numbers of victims.


Indeed...but in today's climate, it seems to be popular to call someone a Nazi who disagrees with others.
Not sure why, perhaps lacking a grasp of real history or it's easier to say?


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Dec 27, 2020)

Just another commie!

Reactions: Funny Funny:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Dec 27, 2020)

And just to show I'm not biased..


----------



## GrauGeist (Dec 27, 2020)




----------



## SaparotRob (Dec 28, 2020)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Just another commie!
> 
> View attachment 606553


Is that for real or did you get that from an old issue of the National Lampoon?


----------

