# Duxford Flying Legends 2005



## trackend (Jul 9, 2005)

I think we may need this as there may be quite a few pics to go on here.
heres a couple to start with but Ive just got home from there so im knackered more will follow.


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## Erich (Jul 9, 2005)

great, keep em coming. The Lanc looks hot, ah only if I could.......be there !


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 9, 2005)

Cool! 8) You take a good picture Trackend.


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## trackend (Jul 9, 2005)

Some are a bit duff as its a new camera and im not used to it yet


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 9, 2005)

Great! 8)


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## trackend (Jul 9, 2005)

Is the size ok for you guys?


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 9, 2005)

Yeah the size is great and so are the photos! 8)


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## Glider (Jul 9, 2005)

I would like to add some pictures but haven't done any yet. Can I ask what size you use?


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## trackend (Jul 9, 2005)

Few more


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## trackend (Jul 9, 2005)

Around a 100 KB Glider, I reduced it to about 60% of the original size on a 4 meg image


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## Erich (Jul 9, 2005)

Track great shot of the Yellowjackets 361st Mustang there  

too bad they made the look- a -like CO's 78th fg "B.B. Doll" a two seater...


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## trackend (Jul 9, 2005)

Sorry about that Erich i know you stipulated only single seaters but when i asked them to change it back for you they said sod off


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## Glider (Jul 9, 2005)

Well Here Goes. I went to Duxford last weekend when they were preparing some of the planes and practicing for today.
This caught my eye. The sign on the ammo box states that the ammo was required ballast for flight. It struck me, what happened if you used it?

Apologies in advance if the photo doesn't work.


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## trackend (Jul 9, 2005)

Thats good Glider just a bit bigger but its a nice shot of the cobras cannon feeder


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## Glider (Jul 9, 2005)

Well lets try this, The office of the B17


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 9, 2005)

Nice! 8)


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## trackend (Jul 9, 2005)

Bang on Glider sweet shot


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## Glider (Jul 9, 2005)

The last couple


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## Glider (Jul 9, 2005)

Track. Thanks for your help


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## Erich (Jul 9, 2005)

Gents did they give reason for the B-17G's inboard engine ~ yellow checks on the cowling.

many thanks


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## evangilder (Jul 9, 2005)

Trackend, for just getting used to the camera, I would say you are doing very, very well! I had to grab a towel. I was drooling all over the keyboard.  Seriously, you got my wife's attention with the pictures as well, and she usually could care less about airplane pics. 
NICE JOB!!!


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## BlackWolf3945 (Jul 10, 2005)

Erich said:


> Gents did they give reason for the B-17G's inboard engine ~ yellow checks on the cowling.



Quoted from this page...

_Sally B's claim to fame as a movie star came when she was first featured in the LWT We'll Meet Again TV series during the winter of 1980-1981, and the advance from the movie provided for the full set of dummy turrets installed in her. The TV series, filmed at West Malling, created a whole new following for the bomber at stimulated Ted White's dream of an all-vintage air show, which was to become the Great Warbirds Air Display. In a tragic twist of fate, Ted White and his friend Mark Campbell died in a crash in Malta in June 1982, just before the air show was held. As tribute to Ted White, Sally B's starboard inner cowling was painted with the same black and yellow checker marking as the Harvard that brought about White's untimely death. It will always carry these colours in memory of White._


Any shots of the Hawk 75?


Fade to Black...


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## trackend (Jul 10, 2005)

Thanks Evan you wont think the same of the Videos there rubbish compared to yours Ill stick them in a new AV thread I'm sure some of the other guys who where there took some better ones.
Good find BW I didnt know that, they said nothing about it at FL.


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## trackend (Jul 10, 2005)

Double post but with pics


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## evangilder (Jul 10, 2005)

Nice stuff, trackend. The wife was asking what camera you are using. I think you mentioned it, but I don't remember...


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## trackend (Jul 10, 2005)

Its a little Olympus C770 ultra zoom camedia its only 4 meg with X10 Zoom but I really hunted around and read lots of tests before buying it Evan, the lens was computated for CCD use only as opposed to most other digitals that have the lenses pinched from 35mm jobs. I got it for £186 on the net (dont ask what that is in $'s I aint got a clue what the exchange rate is  ) the only thing I would warn anyone about, is it has a slow auto focus and the Hand book is 230 pages long but if you use it on auto which is what I did for most of my shots it is easy to use and the metering is almost spot on.
The clip recorder is 30fps and it works very well. Almost video quality but if you want to use the zoom you need a small external mic as it will auto disable the zoom with out one, as you would hear the motor drive too much. Mrs Van G if you want something for your general snaps it may be worth a look at here's a pic so you have some idea what it looks like. By the by congrats on the happy event Mrs VG.
Oh one other thing you will need a spare battery as it can tend to eat them with the LCD screen on and working the Zoom too much.
Now I need your help Evan how can I make my video clips small enough for this web site most are around 10 MB's


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## evangilder (Jul 10, 2005)

Looks quite nice, trackend. Hmm, 10MB is not too bad, but I guess it depends on how long the clip is. How long are they? It also depends on the software you use to do any editting or importing. For output to the web, I typically setit up for Windows media format (WMV) with a variable bit rate. It's a good compromise between size and quality.


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## trackend (Jul 10, 2005)

Thanks Evan I'll give it a whirl and when i've pulled out whats left of my hair i'll get back to you.  
Oh a few more FL shots


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## Glider (Jul 10, 2005)

Being prepared and flying


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## trackend (Jul 10, 2005)

Love the tangs Glider You've done a lot better than me with the arial shots mine are total crap. I'm going to have to experiment till i get it right.


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## Glider (Jul 10, 2005)

Don't be worried. Mine wasn't a display day so I could get a lot closer to the machines. The planes were being moved around and you could stand next to the P51, Hurrie and P39.
Also I could choose my own position and change it when I wanted to. There must have been at least 20 people on the entire flight line from the Ground warfare display to the new hanger and you know how long that is.

Yours are really very good. In particular I like the I153. For some reason I haven't taken a decent shot of it yet and have tried a number of times.


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 10, 2005)

Nice pics guys! 8)


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## trackend (Jul 10, 2005)

I need a favour guys can you try to down load this clip cause im having trouble with my video software


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## plan_D (Jul 10, 2005)

Excellent pictures, track!  I hate you now - 'cos my pictures suck when compared.  

Here's some of mine - I took 278 altogether - that's including museum pictures because I'd never been to Duxford before Saturday.


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## evangilder (Jul 10, 2005)

Those videos weren't bad, trackend. Holding steady with zoom is never easy, but you did fine. I love the DC-3, so that was a special treat! 8)

Glider and plan_d, you guys got some great shots too! I wish I could have been there. Looks like it was a great show.


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## plan_D (Jul 10, 2005)

My camera isn't very good - it's only 3.1 mega-pixels with 3x optical zoom - much more for general picture taking than that situation. If I had a decent camera that Spitfire shot would have been awesome. Here's some more...


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## Erich (Jul 10, 2005)

excellent Gents ! enjoyed the line ups of spits and Stangs. Plus the fly over of the Spit with the 78th fg jug on the tarmac..............keep em comin

can I ask what the doll like blow up was in the background on the right side of the scan with the RAF Lanc ? .... an eatery of some sort ?


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## plan_D (Jul 10, 2005)

I don't know what the big blow up thing was...track will, probably. Here's more shots...


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## Erich (Jul 10, 2005)

ok Plan what is up with the 109E lying on it's belly ?


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## plan_D (Jul 10, 2005)

It crash landed during the Battle of Britain and was taken by Duxford to keep it in a good condition but to replicate it's original state. It was from JG 26. Here's the original picture when that very same plane went down in Britain...


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## Glider (Jul 10, 2005)

My last one of a B17 in Trouble


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## Erich (Jul 10, 2005)

Track hope you didn't mind but I sent a copy of the 78th fg jug to ace and vet Dick Hewitt of the same group. He was thrilled. He thinks it is: "No guts, No glory" as he has been at Duxford in the past./

many thanks !!


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## evangilder (Jul 10, 2005)

Nice stuff, d! Man, that looks like it was one hell of a show.


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

> Track hope you didn't mind but I sent a copy of the 78th fg jug to ace and vet Dick Hewitt of the same group. He was thrilled. He thinks it is: "No guts, No glory" as he has been at Duxford in the past./


No problem Erich I don't like copyrighting my pics. It was "No Guts No Glory" as Dick said. I'm just pleased you found them worth a look at, I think I may have a couple of other shots as well of the Jug Erich when I've had a look I'll stick them on here. If any of you guys want , you can do as you wish with my snaps. Glider, D co all your pics are great I think if the subject matter is good enough even if you don't get the perfect shot (which is something I seem to do 99.9% of the time) it carrys the image, and if your like the rest of the anoraks on here its the birds we want to see so well done guys I luv all your pics. I cant say the same about my videos though, they truly are junk so I'll have to take some lessons from you Evan, do you do Internet courses?  I think I may have some taxeing stuff that's a bit more viewable.
It was a brilliant show at Duxford Evan and the final fly past with 20+ classic Aircraft was something that had to been seen in the flesh to be appreciated. This was my first visit and I'm going to go for both days next year. Stunning is the only thing I can say.


Erich said:


> can I ask what the doll like blow up was in the background on the right side of the scan with the RAF Lanc ? .... an eatery of some sort ?



That was me Erich I think that was why D and Crippen wouldnt talk to me,
I must cut down on the Burgers and see my tailor  
(it was a kids play area Erich)


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

Yeah right, track. We all know it was you - the kids went in and never went out. You're just a large French baby eater - aren't you!?!  

And track, you know when the B-17s went out and they were revving up before taking off. I was caught right inbetween them both - the roar of eight Cyclone engines was awesome...many a person had to hold on to their hats...


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

Super shots my leetel eengleesh yorkshire puudin  bet the French commentator got up your snout D, I got some reasonable video of the Rolls Royce static displays with the Griffon and two Merlins singing for the crowd not many engines that get a round of applause just for running.
post em when I have cleaned them up a bit.


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

I enjoyed the pushing both those commentators were doing - all in good humour. The Frenchie was pushing it a bit at the end though about the Battle of France...don't worry Frenchie - we know you lost!


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

He was very knowledgable chap though D wasnt he. It sounded like he had flown most of the aircraft on display at some time of another.
It was just a shame that the tannoy system tended to over power the aircraft noise on my video sound track.
I heard Dutch,French,German,Swedish,US,Polish,Spanish and a couple of other accents that I couldnt regognise and most had travelled in just for the show so it seems to attract an international crowd what would you say D, I reckoned about 20-30,000 people there.


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

Yes he seemed to know how most of the aircraft flew, a few historic facts he needed correcting on but we can't be perfect. I saw and heard a lot of nationalities - I found a group of very nice looking German lasses wandering inside one of the hangers...amazingly for once the only girls I was thinking about had under-carriage, a big engine and a propeller on the front.  

I'd say easily 20,000...


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

Here's some of a Yak-3UPW - which shocked me quite a bit. I didn't expect it to be such an agile bird after all I've read about Soviet aircraft not being on par until the La-5 and La-7 - but this Yak-3 was thrown around like god knows what, I certainly wouldn't want to dog fight with it.


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

I agree D it just proves what you read and what you see can vary that Yak was a stunning show great pics by the way mate. Did you see that german mother and daughter in the red outfits the daughter was at least 6'3' and a real looker trouble was she knew it which made her very arrogant.


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

Nah - where were you? In the Gold Pass bit?


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

I went in the gold section for the displays but I went everywhere man walked the flight line 5 times the stalls 3 and visited the toilets once


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## evangilder (Jul 11, 2005)

Nice shots, d! It's great that you guys moved around at the show. You see more of the action and airplanes that way too. I always try to get out to the shows early to get static shots before the crowds get too thick. It's real easy for me at Camarillo because I work the show. I get there at 8 and the gates don't open until 10. It's great if you can get in early, but the light is usually kind of crummy.


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

I walked the flight line twice - we got into the place sometime between half 8 and 9 - but since I hadn't been there before, I went into all the museums so it must have been about 11 by the time I got on the flight line.


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

Here's some of the only German aircraft in the show. Sorry for the poor air shots - as I said my camera is only 3x optical zoom. The pilot put on a great show though despite the fact during some of her moves I was trying to take pictures of aircraft taxiing.


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## sunny91 (Jul 11, 2005)

super,

sunny


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

This is just for lanc...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 11, 2005)

let's have more of your lanc piccies guys! 

and trackie, the very first picture you posted in this topic of the lanc you've titled as "cit of leeds", are you aware she's called the "City of Lincoln"?


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

I refuse to show anymore Lancaster pictures because you just appreciate my picture taking.   

No, it's actually because I only have one more and it's refusing to work.  

But here's some more...of other aircraft...


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 11, 2005)

Nice... 8)


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> let's have more of your lanc piccies guys!
> 
> and trackie, the very first picture you posted in this topic of the lanc you've titled as "cit of leeds", are you aware she's called the "City of Lincoln"?


On one side Its got Mickey the Moocher . I must have made an error, I only take the pictures Lanc I dont know what im looking at  I'll change it for you


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

Hmmm...I suppose that's why you wanted to meet someone from here - so they could tell you what it was. Didn't you get the programme?


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

I cant read D I just look at the pics those up there of yours for instance are cool


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

...hmmm...that must make this whole situation quite difficult. Do you just put our posts into context?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 11, 2005)

oh, sorry trakkie, did you mistake it for annother flying lancaster 

and cheers pD, there, now stop your moaning.......


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

Pardon I cant read you


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

That sounded too forced, lanc. 

And typical Frenchman aren't you, track? We know you can speak English but you refuse to speak it 'cos you're ... well, French...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 11, 2005)

well of course it was bloody forced!


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 11, 2005)

Nice Mustang shot!


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

Because you're an ungrateful swine, like the French - eh, track? 

Thank you, CC. 8)


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

When I git homo frim wok I weel pisst somme moor pinctures fo u.
Or as the Swedes would say PD "Skcollob" .


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

I'm sorry I didn't quite get that I was just "...pissing by your doorway..."


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

Here's the Hurricanes -

Track, did you get any pictures of the black Hurricane that has it's serial # in it? Because I don't know if I've got the right one.


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

May have PD I'll post everthing thats worth posting soon as I can.
I have a couple of quite good taxing clips not as good as Evans but watchable.


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## evangilder (Jul 11, 2005)

Nice Hurricane shots! Your clips aren't bad, trackend. With some practice, it will get even better.


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

Well they can't get much worse Evan it looks like I was filming while competing in a Rodeo


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

Here's the PBV-1A 'Canso' - I don't know much about the Catalina and Canso - is the Canso just a Canadian built Catalina? 

I don't know but it was a great show by the Canso. Switching from floats to gear - as well as while running up right in front of me, the whole tail section was shaking like mad.


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## evangilder (Jul 11, 2005)

love it! I have always liked the Catalina.


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

Here's the beautiful Princess Elizabeth -

I have a problem naming the Mustangs because I have the list of the types shown and their # - but not their name. So, I can't seperate the Ds - maybe you know the different ones, evan...if I gave you the list would you be able to put their name to me?


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## evangilder (Jul 11, 2005)

I can certainly give it a try.


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

Well, here's the list - 

P-51C-20 #43-25147 'Princess Elizabeth' 

P-51D-20 #44-63864

P-51D-25 #44-73877

P-51D-25 #44-73149

P-51D-25 #44-72773

P-51D-25 #44-72917

The P-51C was easy because it's the only one! The others I just don't know - I could tell you who they belong to, if that would help.


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## evangilder (Jul 11, 2005)

That might, also the fuselage codes. Sometimes the serials are originial, but the paints schemes are not. Sometimes they change the serials to match the paint scheme, some don't. Makes for some confusion.


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

I noticed that - let me see how many fuselage codes I've got because I'll be taking them from my pictures. Those up there are the originals of the actual aircraft because the real Princess Elizabeth was actually a P-51B so it can't be the original code - obviously. 

I've worked out - well, I saw it...the # is the one painted on the aircraft 'Suzy'

But here are the ones I still don't know which one is which because in the pictures it's not painted with the proper code...

P-51D-20 #44-63864 Owned by The Fighter Collection

P-51D-25 #44-73877 Owned by Scandanavian Historic Flight

P-51D-25 #44-73149 Owned by Old Flying Machine Company

P-51D-25 #44-72917 Owned by Rob Davies


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

Here's Susy #44-72773 -


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## evangilder (Jul 11, 2005)

*P-51C-20 #43-25147 'Princess Elizabeth' *
History / Previous Identities: 

197?: Restoration as "Shangri-La", Pete Regina
06/11/81: Test flown by Dave Zeuschel 
1982: First B model to race at Reno Air Races since '48 
1986: The Believer, racer # 97, Joseph Kasparoff 
1996: Princess Elizabeth, Stephen Grey, The Fighter Collection - England
1997 June: P-51 is crated and shipped to England. 
1998 July: Disassembly and parts inspection begins. 
1998 November: P-51 shipped back to US for further restoration work. 
2002: shipped back to England for assembly
will probably be painted as before "Princess Elizabeth" 


*P-51D-20 #44-63864 'Twilight Tear'*
History / Previous Identities: 

44-63864: Delivered USAAF 12/14/44 
WWII Vet: "Twilight Tear" coded HL W, 
pilot Hubert Davis, Duxford, England 
3 confirmed kills: 2 Me262, 1 Me109 

1948 June: RSwAF 26158 F16 coded rD, gK 
1953: Sold Israel as IDFAF 3506 
Another P-51 (N251L) in Israel was sold with an id of 44-63864, then crashed in Iceland on return to USA. Owner Bill Lear and the pilot were killed. 

At some point 44-63864(#1) was registered 4X-AIM in Israel. Upon arrival in Sweden, the paint was stripped, Swedish markings were found on the wings and in the tail the placard with the RSwAF number of 26158. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2002: March/April - 44-63864 sold to the Fighter Collection of Duxford. Will be ferried (flown) to the UK in early April 02. 
2002: registered G-CBNM 
2003: flying as "Twilight Tear", former WWII 78th FG colors. 

*P-51D-25 #44-73877 'Old Crow'*
History / Previous Identities: 

1951: RCAF 9279 
1958: N6320T 
1960: CF-PCZ (Neil McClain) 
1968: N167F (Paul Finefrock) 
1980: (Anders Saether) 
restoration by Vintage Aircraft of Ft. Collins
1985: finished restoration as "Old Crow", first flight by Anders Saether 
1999: repainted as "Detroit Miss" E2 D 
2001: repainted as "Old Crow" Olive Drab (thanks to Steve Huckvale for info) 

*P-51D-25 #44-73149 'Ferocious Frankie'*
History / Previous Identities: 

1945: US training units 
There is a report that states this P-51 served with the 357th FG 
1947: RCAF 9568, Suffield Alberta 
(part of the first delivery batch to Canada)
1960: N6340T 
1962: NL6320T, restoration, Aerosport at Chino CA (Ernest Beehler) 
1974: racer #7 "Candyman" (red w/ white stripe) (Charles Beck) 
1980: overhaul in Oakland Ca prior to ferry flight to Switzerland by John Crocker 
1981: "Moose"/"Candyman"
1986: N51JJ (John Crocker)
1991: G-BTCD (The Fighter Collection) 
1999: (Mark Hanna) new paint job 
2002: new paint as "Ferocious Frankie" 44-13704,B7 H 

*P-51D-25 #44-72773 'Susy'*
History / Previous Identities: 

1951 - USAF Tactical Air Command 
131st Fighter Squadron, George AFB California 1954 - 182nd Fighter Squadron, 
Texas Air National Guard, Brooks AFB, SAn Antonio 1958: Nicaragua GN 120 
1963: N12066 (Will Martin) 
1966: (I. Burchinall Jr) 
1985: (Bob Ferguson) 
1986: G-SUSY (Charles Church) England 
1990: (Paul Morgan) 

* P-51D-25 #44-72917 'Big Beautiful Doll'*
History / Previous Identities: 

8 March, 1951: Commenwealth Aircraft Corporation
1951: RAAF 
1958: VH-FCB (F.C. Braund) 
1961: (Jack McDonald) 
1969: PI-C651 Philippines (Prontino Inc.)
1973: crashed on landing, rebuilt using 44-72917 (ex-Phillippine AF P-51) 
1981: VR-HIU (Hong Kong) 
1985: rebuilt "CV H" , shipped to UK 
1985: G-HAEC, "Ding Hao", "Missy Wong from Hong Kong", "RAAF A68-192" 


Whew! All of this info comes from the mustangsmustangs.net website.


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

Thanks a lot - that's excellent. Exactly what I wanted. 8)


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

Here they are, properly named...thanks to evan. 8)


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## evangilder (Jul 11, 2005)

Glad I could help. Great shots!


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 11, 2005)

That last one is great! 8)


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

few more


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## Erich (Jul 11, 2005)

actually for historical sake, 4th FG "Susy" should not have the upright Mustang profile on the tail. This was a mottif developed in one of the 55th fg squadrons for Identification purposes 

great photos guys...


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

The in flight Dak is rubbish, sorry about that I need more practice


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

Great shots, track. Here's some of the Dutch owned B-25:


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 11, 2005)

Very Very nice guys! 8)


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

your action shots are much better than mine PD all I have ended up with is digital dross I have a question I am going to put some vid clips on the site all from FL 2005 should I start a new thread in the vid section or add them too here? oh sorry to be boring heres a few more snaps


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

I was in a good spot during the majority of the show - I was where they were all stopping to run up their engines. As you can see I do have some poor shots - it was mainly from the button sticking and I'd press harder which would make me move the camera just as the picture was taken. 

Here's the BoB-MF Dakota.


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

still like em D it adds atmos you must have been right near me if you look at the Gi guys in your shot by the Daks starboard wheel and mine its the same blokes so we took the pics within about 30 secs of eachother


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

Yeah - we must have been close but that flight path was packed.


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

True oh well yet more i think we are starting to bore the other guys D with our pics


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## evangilder (Jul 11, 2005)

I'm not bored with these. It's the next best thing to having been there. And I didn't have to pay an arm and a leg for crappy food!


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

You swine, evan!  

Here's Sally B -


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

Thats right Evan bloody well remind me  perhaps you could answer this question as I asked D and the little toe rag ignored me should I put my vids on here or in a new vid thread


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

It's not my place to answer those questions, trackend. I'm not qualified.


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## evangilder (Jul 11, 2005)

Why not start a new thread in the aviation vids thread for the show. There might be others with vids to post.


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## Erich (Jul 11, 2005)

was the colored smoke from Sally B just a crowd pleaser or did this have something to do with the flight ? if it is suppose to represent a damaged Fort where is the SturmFw on it's tail ?


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## mosquitoman (Jul 11, 2005)

Great pics! I'll get my pnes on once they come back from the shop (oh for a digital camera!) I'll find some time to put my dad's ones on aswell


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

It was to represent a damaged Fort - and if you ever know of a SturmFW following a Fort back to Britain, please tell me of the story.


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

Heres that cooked Rapide PD


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## mosquitoman (Jul 11, 2005)

Wow, did that happen on Sunday?


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## evangilder (Jul 11, 2005)

I don't recall the exact story, but I do remember reading about some bombers on their way home that were attacked and shot down just short of the runway. If I recall correctly, it was a 110 that did it, but I could be wrong. Damned if I can remember when I read that though. Erich, did you hear about anything like that?


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

That's awful, track.


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

No on the Saturday Mossie about 18:30 with a load of passengers onboard


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## evangilder (Jul 11, 2005)

MAN! Those Rapide shots are a real heartbreaker. Looks like it could have been a hell of a lot worse though.


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## plan_D (Jul 11, 2005)

I saw them running up the Griffon 85 it was sweet - I felt a slight tingle in my testicles.  

Here is tracks favourite plane of the show because it's based in France (  ) the PINK LADY!


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## Erich (Jul 11, 2005)

a couple things............first and foremost thanks so much gents for these pics I am drooling.........yeah it's grandpa disease

Plan not unless the SturmFw and his buddies had monstorus drop tanks... NOT

Eric the mission was at night the most spectacular of the 3 was on the night of March 4/5 1945 Unternehmen Gisela. The Lancs/halis just got back from smacking Kamen and Ju 88G-6's of several gruppen at forward bases follwed the RAF 4 engine jobs back home. All hell broke loose with some 25 bombers going down over or near their bases by these intruders. 2 88's were shot down by home defence Mossies, with 1 Mossie falling to the guns of an 88G-6. The wayward home for the German crews was hellish as the storm front moved in with almost 0 visibility and several crews were MIA due to weather crashing it appears in the north sea. Several ju 88G-6's on strafing missions smasehd into building ans d trees, telephone poles by accident killing their crews....

two other missions with 18 Ju 88G-6's netted about 3 RAF a/c and then last mission by one fearless III./NJG 2 Ju 88G-6 crew shot down 1 RAF heavy.

Eric also back to the pics, the info on P-51 from 78th fg, Hubert Davis, the scores from him while flying Twighlight Tear, I hae him scoring 1 Bf 109 in the spring of 45 but the two Me 262's ? do you have more on him by chance. the 78th FG history is practically worhtless on following up on this guy. Is he still alive I wonder ? this would be fantastic if so....

E ~


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## Erich (Jul 11, 2005)

another point B-17's were followed home at night......yes it was a late mission over Germany and KG 54's ? Me 410's shot down many while on landing patterns in April of 44. Eric. this maybe the date you are looking for. The Me 410's had been doing intruder work over Britain almost unsuccessfully. the Me 410's were painted a dirty black/charcoal


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## evangilder (Jul 11, 2005)

Hmm, not sure with the 78th, or Hubert Davis. Let me ask around the museum, as I am unsure of any info on that group.

Good info on the 88s too. I thought it was a twilight attack on 8th AF bombers, but that wouldn't make any sense as they typically took off in the early morning hours. That started sounding more familiar the more I read though. Gotta suck though, thinking you made it home and WHAM. Then those poor Germans not being able to get back due to weather.


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## Erich (Jul 11, 2005)

I checked a couple of Me 262 sources and nothing is mentioned whether shot the jets on the tarmac or in the air. I have aksed dick hewitt about him again but dick was in another squadron. You maybe very correct as I have found me 262 kills not even mentioned in fighter group histories....and only later is the proof found. I await the museums response 8)


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## Erich (Jul 11, 2005)

gents anyone get the left side close-up of Twilight Tear. P-51 Mustang showing the name and the three swastikas on the canopy ?

he is supposed to have three aerial victories though I can only confimr the 1 Bf 109 and also 1 damaged whatever it was. 35 missions from January 45 till war's end. His two kids visited Duxford in 2003 and were quite pleased with T.Tear in the air..........


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## mosquitoman (Jul 11, 2005)

Here's some of my dad's pics of PA474 (and me in one  ), I'll do the rest later


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## lesofprimus (Jul 11, 2005)

Escellent and awesome pics guys..... FANTASTIC!!!

Thanks...


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

3 panoramas and a couple of others


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2005)

double post last couple of shots from me


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## evangilder (Jul 11, 2005)

Very nice, guys! That shot of the kid sitting on the bumper of the jeep made me pause. The guys that wore those uniforms for D-Day were probably not much older than him.


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## plan_D (Jul 12, 2005)

There were a lot of Air Cadets there so a lot of young lads and lasses in uniform. My brother has been playing around with some of my pictures - here's that Dakota one...I've still got other pictures but I'll name 'em first.


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## plan_D (Jul 12, 2005)

Here's the Hawk-75 - this put on a great show while the twenty-plus formation was turning around. It was excellent to see flying - after my recent discovery of how good the Hawk really was.


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## plan_D (Jul 12, 2005)

Here's Spitfire VB #BM597 -


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## trackend (Jul 12, 2005)

Super stuff PD, I agree the Curtiss Hawk put on stunning performance . 
I have found 2 more reasonable shots I'll stick them on when I get home tonight and maybe have enough time for 1 video to be posted in the other thread. Trouble is I work 12 hrs, 5 days a week so I dont get much time in the evenings to do much editing.


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 12, 2005)

Cool shots! 8)


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## evangilder (Jul 12, 2005)

Nice stuff guys!


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## trackend (Jul 12, 2005)

2 more that I found and doctored to make them a bit better


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 12, 2005)

Cool! 8)


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## trackend (Jul 12, 2005)

Thanks CC a cool from you is worth alot to and old Twat like me


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 12, 2005)

Hehe but no you take some damn good pictures!


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## evangilder (Jul 12, 2005)

Yep, I agree. Those are very nice!


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## plan_D (Jul 12, 2005)

I haven't finished with mine yet - so don't start giving that "old twat" all the praise. Hahah - yeah, track, excellent shots! 8)


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## plan_D (Jul 12, 2005)

Here are some more Spitfire shots :


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## evangilder (Jul 12, 2005)

Very nice!


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## plan_D (Jul 12, 2005)

The I-15bis 'Bort 19' - an extremely nippy little bi-plane.


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## plan_D (Jul 12, 2005)

P-40M, P-39Q and F8F-2P:


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## evangilder (Jul 12, 2005)

Those are nice too! I love the Bearcat!


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## plan_D (Jul 12, 2005)

It didn't get to fly though. Mechanical problems.


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## evangilder (Jul 12, 2005)

Not uncommon with that plane. It's an old plane that is also a performance aircraft. Combine the 2 and you have the crew-chiefs headache! But when they run, oh YEAH!


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## plan_D (Jul 13, 2005)

I bet it is especially with that pilot! The normal Bearcat pilot (I can't remember the name) was flying the Hawk-75 which was an awesome display. 

Here's the P-47D-40 -


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 13, 2005)

Cool photos! 8) Love the P-47.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 13, 2005)

The P-39 looks beautiful


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## plan_D (Jul 13, 2005)

evan, do you know what the serial # is for the Skyraider and what type it is - 'cos it ain't in the programme. Corsairs -


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 13, 2005)

Cool pics!


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## evangilder (Jul 14, 2005)

I will have to do some digging on that one. Navy serial numbers are a bit more crytpic sometimes. Let me see what I can find. I can see that it was part of VA-176 on the USS Intrepid by the markings though.


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## plan_D (Jul 14, 2005)

Could it be the number on the tail that is it's serial #? 

Here's the Hellcat -


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## evangilder (Jul 14, 2005)

The tail number is sometimes part of the serial number. Sometimes there aren't numbers on the tail, so the Navy markings have always been a bit enigmatic for me. The Air Force kind of plasters them in the same place every time, so they are very easy.


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## plan_D (Jul 14, 2005)

Yeah - on the USN Cosair the BuNo is right under it's tail - so that was easy. I don't know where it is on the FAA Corsair but I could easily work it out 'cos the only other one in the programme is the Goodyear Corsair. 

I don't know why the Skyraider isn't in the programme.


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## evangilder (Jul 14, 2005)

Maybe it was in "Stealth" mode!  Probably a mistaken omission, or the pilot thought he would crash the party!


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## plan_D (Jul 14, 2005)

He probably crashed the party with his filthy post-war aeroplane! Scum!   

F7F-3P Tigercat -


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 14, 2005)

Lush pics! 8)


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## trackend (Jul 14, 2005)

You have put on some really nice pictures fellas I am sure all the other guys who where not able to go have got a good flavour of just how exciting a display Flying Legends was well done.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 14, 2005)

Ah Sgt. Pilots! What a concept! An NCO flying an aircraft! It makes too much sense!


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## evangilder (Jul 14, 2005)

I heard that! Ah, for the good old days. Who came up with the idea that a four year degree would make you a better pilot?

Love the shots trackend!


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## trackend (Jul 14, 2005)

On a program the other night FBJ that was voting for the best fighter of all time they discussed sgt pilots and how in a officers mess they hung a blanket so the sgts went one side and the commissioned officers went the other One sgt over heard an officer when told that so so had bought it said "what do you expect using Sargent's to fly planes" to me that says a lot about the class system that persisted in the UK during the war. the guy died fighting that puts him in the highest ranking that I know of. be it right of wrong that they were given the rank of Sargent he deserved more respect than that.
Oh by the way FBJ the Mustang won.


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 14, 2005)

That program was rubbish  No EE Lightning. It really annoyed me that program


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## trackend (Jul 14, 2005)

I thought the prog was very good CC


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 14, 2005)

trackend said:


> be it right of wrong that they were given the rank of Sargent he deserved more respect than that.



Yep - I know what you're talking about.....

About 5 years ago the base where my Naval reserve squadron was located was holding an airshow. Thanks to one of my Chiefs, I got to fly a T-34 (an old tandem primary trainer) from Edwards AFB to Point Mugu NAS. The aircraft was part of the Edwards AFB flying club and I actually rented it for the show. Because I did this, my Chief arranged for me to be paid for my time that weekend. Well I flew her in wearing my flight suit. On my name plate was displayed my Navy rate badge (the wings and propeller) and my rank (Petty Officer 2nd Class, a Sargent in other worlds). Well my enlisted superiors thought it was great and took great pride in having one of their maintainers fly an aircraft to the airshow, a couple of the squadron pilots took exception to my being there as I was allowed access to VIP areas. It got up to the Command Master Chief and his response was "What's a matter, you're worried that a 2nd Class Petty could do your job, maybe even better!"

I think Sgt. Pilots are a great idea, especially when there are shortages of trained "Officer" pilots. you don't need a college degree to fly an airplane!

PS - GREAT PICS!


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 14, 2005)

The USAAF very briefly employed NCO (or warrant officer, I can't remember. Maybe both.) pilots in 1942. It didn't last very long, and before any of them even reached the war zone they were all made 2nd lieutenants. 

The British class system was pretty rigid and like trackie says, NCO pilots were often considered inferior by the officers. Tell that to Buzz Beurling. 
According to my grandad and many books that I've read, it wasn't quite that bad in the RCAF. There were certainly prickish, arrogant officers, but they were more the exception than the rule when the bullets started flying.

Great pics, by the way!


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## Glider (Jul 14, 2005)

The attitude to rank I have always found interesting. In the RAF on bombers with large crews, the person who flew the plane was in charge once they were on board irrespective of rank. So a Sargent could be in command of an officer. In the USA I think I am right in saying that the pilots were always the highest ranks on the plane so there wasn't a problem. In the German air force I believe that the person in charge was the one with the highest rank no matter what his position.
As the UK was seen as having the strictest class system, it has intrigued me that we had the most flexible set up.


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 14, 2005)

Interesting. It's much like that in US naval aviation today (Air Force too?). The pilot is ultimately in charge, irrespective of rank, so you could have a lieutenant (j.g.) in command of the aircraft giving instructions to a commander.


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## Gnomey (Jul 14, 2005)

Nice photos everybody


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## plan_D (Jul 14, 2005)

I saw the tank one of that programme about the top ten - it was bullshit. And if you have top ten fighters of all time and don't have the English Electric Lightning - you're talking bullshit.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 14, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> The USAAF very briefly employed NCO (or warrant officer, I can't remember. Maybe both.) pilots in 1942.



They were "Pilot Officers" (PO - the same as a Warrant Officer) that started out usually as "flying sargents." Later other occupations used the ranks when NCOs were being trained for Navigator and Bombadier positios. My Uncle Joe was one, he was later made a 2nd Lt.


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 14, 2005)

Ah, cool. Thanks for clearing it up.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 14, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> NCO pilots were often considered inferior by the officers. Tell that to Buzz Beurling.



 



Nonskimmer said:


> It's much like that in US naval aviation today (Air Force too?). The pilot is ultimately in charge, irrespective of rank, so you could have a lieutenant (j.g.) in command of the aircraft giving instructions to a commander.



Its like that on the P-3. The Tactical Coordinating Officer (TACCO) is like the bombardier on the plane. He's the one who actually kills the target (The sub - ARE YOU READING THIS NS? ). They are always battling the pilots as they think the pilot could make the aircraft go backwards and turn 15Gs to track a target. Usually the pilot usually "educates" them.


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 14, 2005)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Its like that on the P-3. The Tactical Coordinating Officer (TACCO) is like the bombardier on the plane. He's the one who actually kills the target (The sub - ARE YOU READING THIS NS? ).


I see. 

*Note to self: From now on aim for the TACCO.*


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 14, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> FLYBOYJ said:
> 
> 
> > Its like that on the P-3. The Tactical Coordinating Officer (TACCO) is like the bombardier on the plane. He's the one who actually kills the target (The sub - ARE YOU READING THIS NS? ).
> ...



Oh please do! Everyone on the plane will buy you beers!  

On some of the P-3"C" models there was on old ICS button one the pilot's pedestal, this was to be used to talk to maintenance personnel outside the aircraft. Many units had them de-activated so there was this little push button switch that did nothing. Almost every squadron had at least one plane where someone got a hold of a label maker and labeled the switch "TACCO EJECTION SEAT!"


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 14, 2005)

That sounds something like the "Cloaking Device" switch we had on one of the frigates I was on.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 14, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> That sounds something like the "Cloaking Device" switch we had on one of the frigates I was on.



Did you have some newbees thinking the ship could go invisible?


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## evangilder (Jul 14, 2005)

Nice shots trackend! Believe it or not, out C-46 actually has a fuse on the fuse panel labelled "MISSILE POWER". It really was for missile power! Back in the old days, there were gyros in the missiles that had to be powered to know where they were at all times. So they were plugged into the power panel on the C-46 while being transported.


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## trackend (Jul 15, 2005)

I do like your sig Skimm its a cracker.
Thats very interesting Evan it must have been a real bitch if the power to the gyros failed, I assume there must have been a procedure to reconfigurer the missiles in such an eventuality but I would imaging it would be very time consuming so the weapon would have been off the ordinace ready loop for sometime.


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 15, 2005)

Thanks trackie. The sig will just be temporary. The dolphins were a long time coming, so I felt like celebrating. 



FLYBOYJ said:


> Did you have some newbees thinking the ship could go invisible?


Two or three honestly thought it did something. 
Idiots.


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## superunknown (Jul 15, 2005)

I was there too, I would have put up pictures sooner but I couldn't be bothered. I only managed to get 44 pictures and most of them were crap!, my camera is a really cheap digital job which claims to have 3m pixels (more like 2m) with no optical zoom, just digital. I was most impressed with the B-25's and the Hawk-75.


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## evangilder (Jul 15, 2005)

Yes, it would take it out for a while, but I have no idea how they would recover the gyros. I am sure there was a way, but knowing the technology of the time, it was probably pretty primitive and time consuming.


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## plan_D (Jul 15, 2005)

Here's the B-25J-35 "Russel's Raiders" -


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 15, 2005)

Great! 8)


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## evangilder (Jul 15, 2005)

Sweet!


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## plan_D (Jul 15, 2005)

The Skyraider -


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 15, 2005)

Lovely.


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## evangilder (Jul 15, 2005)

Nice! That is one meaty airplane.


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## trackend (Jul 16, 2005)

Super shots there D


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 16, 2005)

Those are great too.


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 16, 2005)

Cool, like the Hellcat 8)


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## evangilder (Jul 16, 2005)

Yeah, great shots!


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## trackend (Jul 16, 2005)

Thanks for the undeserved praise fellas. If you stand in front af a great pair of tits its hard not to get an impressive shot


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 16, 2005)

trackend said:


> If you stand in front af a great pair of tits its hard not to get an impressive shot



I didnt think you saw Mosquitoman or plan_D there?


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 16, 2005)




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## plan_D (Jul 16, 2005)

Hahaha! That was actually pretty good, CC, you tart!   Oh I'm not even going to try a comeback, it deserves to be left alone (plus I can't think of one).  

Here's some others -


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## trackend (Jul 16, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> trackend said:
> 
> 
> > If you stand in front af a great pair of tits its hard not to get an impressive shot
> ...



    
CC you little quiper you


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## plan_D (Jul 17, 2005)

Well, you obviously all thought I'd ran out but no! I'm scrapping the bottom of the barrel but I've still got some!


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 17, 2005)

Not bad. Not bad at all.


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## evangilder (Jul 17, 2005)

Still not bad.


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## trackend (Jul 18, 2005)

Actually D I really like the ones with a smaller object in a big frame it seems to convey the motion of the aircraft better than a filled frame well done I may pinch that idea for my next shoot.


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 18, 2005)

Nice! 8)


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## plan_D (Jul 18, 2005)

Don't credit me with a good shot on those, track. They're only like that because I only have 3x optical zoom!  I have to admit I do like the one of the B-17 flying over - and if I do get another, better, camera I will still take a few pictures like that.


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## Gnomey (Jul 18, 2005)

Nice photos!


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## Concorde247 (Jul 20, 2005)

Great shots Glider 8) I couldnt make it to flying legends this year something else came up...

heres a few pics from my previous visits though - hope the sizings ok?.


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## Concorde247 (Jul 20, 2005)

a few more taken with my trusty Fuji finepix 2400Zoom my Fuji S304


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## evangilder (Jul 20, 2005)

Nice pics!


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## plan_D (Jul 20, 2005)

I love the way he only says Glider's shots are great. Completely ignoring mine, tracks and superunknowns.


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## Glider (Jul 20, 2005)

THERE THERE, I THINK YOURS ARE EXCELLENT


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## plan_D (Jul 20, 2005)

Yeah but you don't matter.  Hahaha.


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## plan_D (Jul 20, 2005)

I haven't even finished with mine yet.


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 20, 2005)

Nice. 8)


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## Gnomey (Jul 20, 2005)

Nice Photos


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## evangilder (Jul 20, 2005)

Sweet!

And for the record, plan_d, I did say that all of the others were great too.


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 20, 2005)

Beautiful pics, Glider! 

Yours are good too PD and tracks.


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## Gauntlet (Jul 20, 2005)

Hi there lads. 
Impressive photos I must say, and here is some of mine.
(My dad and I took around 1000 pics altoghter, he mainly static, and I mainly flying, as I have 10x zoom)
SORRY FOR THE BAD QUALITY OF LOTS OF THE PHOTOS, I SCREWED UP DURING THE CROPPING!
























































































BTW: I didnt see the Blenheim last year...sure it was there?


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 20, 2005)

I really do need to get back over to the UK and visit Duxford.


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## evangilder (Jul 21, 2005)

Yeah, me too! Nice shots there. I really like the Corsairs in tight formation and the Hawk taking off.


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## trackend (Jul 21, 2005)

Superb shots Gauntlet really gives the feel of the flying show well done. 
I dont know of anyone who went that didnt think it was anything less than breath taking.


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 21, 2005)

Ace pics! 8)


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## plan_D (Jul 21, 2005)

Excellent pictures. 8)


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## Glider (Jul 21, 2005)

If you think those are bad, please post your good ones. Me, I would settle for your bad ones.


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## Gnomey (Jul 21, 2005)

Great pics!


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## Concorde247 (Jul 22, 2005)

plan_D said:


> I love the way he only says Glider's shots are great. Completely ignoring mine, tracks and superunknowns.




Terribly sorry guys, i MEANT to say ALL of them were good!    

I wish i'd been able to go this year, it looked like a great show.


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## Concorde247 (Jul 22, 2005)

Glider said:


> If you think those are bad, please post your good ones. Me, I would settle for your bad ones.




ME TOO! 
What cameras do you guys use?


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## Bushranger (Jul 22, 2005)

Beaut pics everyone! Don't have much time, so just for a quick nit-pick, Concorde, on your shot named Lysander_and_Fury_at_Duxford, the biplane is actually a Hawker Nimrod, the only flying one in the world. I know, cos I've got a big fat poster of it on my wall, and the tail numbers of the plane in your pic correspond with those on my poster. And, as I said its the only flying on in the world, so go figure. Anyways, nice pics everyone, I'm off


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## Concorde247 (Jul 22, 2005)

You're right - it is a nimrod, i was in a hurry to post the pics sorry about that


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## Glider (Jul 22, 2005)

Concord. Normally I use a Minolta Dynax 5, but have just bought a Konica Minolta 7D which I used at the International Air Tatoo for the first time. The normal lens for ground to air shots is a Sigma 75-300. They are not expensive and the results are equal to far more expensive lens's.


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## Concorde247 (Jul 23, 2005)

Hi Glider,

I have two that I swear by, I used to work for kodak - so you can guess what they are... 

Yes thats right...FUJIFILM !!!

My first one is an old FinePix 2400Zoom that has 3X optical Zoom with 2.5X digital telephoto.

The other is The finepix S304, with 6X optical Zoom 3.2x Digital Zoom.

They really are first rate cameras so easy to use.


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## plan_D (Jul 24, 2005)

I have a CX7330 - 3x optical zoom, which really isn't enough I don't think. 

I actually still have some pictures left, so I will begin the process of posting the last ones.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 24, 2005)

i like that last one pD..........

this's the camera i use, some of the more observant amoung you will notice it's not a digital, yes, i'm wtill working with 35mm film..........


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 24, 2005)

Yeah, nice pic D.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 24, 2005)

what, you're not gonna comment on my camera..........


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 24, 2005)

Well ok. It's big...it's a Pentax...it's black...
Anything else?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 24, 2005)

hey, it's got a strap........


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 24, 2005)

And a big ass lens I see.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 24, 2005)

yes, yes there is........


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## Glider (Jul 24, 2005)

And it takes good pictures


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 25, 2005)

why thank you......


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## plan_D (Jul 27, 2005)

...


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## plan_D (Jul 27, 2005)

...if you're wondering why I'm doing it in little posts; it's because I'm finding out which aircraft is which and as soon as I do, I post 'em.


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## Gnomey (Jul 27, 2005)

Nice photos pD!


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## HealzDevo (Jul 31, 2005)

Interesting shots those ones will have to look at them at some later stage.


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## BlackWolf3945 (Aug 1, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> And a big ass lens I see.


That's not a big-ass lens...

*THIS* is a big-ass lens!!


Fade to Black...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 1, 2005)

whoa that's a big lens!


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## cheddar cheese (Aug 1, 2005)

Jesus christ hes firing from the hip!


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## Nonskimmer (Aug 1, 2005)

That's a _huge_-ass lens.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 1, 2005)

don't say that he'll only get a picture of a bigger one!


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## cheddar cheese (Aug 1, 2005)

Look what I just found..neat.


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## evangilder (Aug 1, 2005)

Good luck getting _that_ through air show security!


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## cheddar cheese (Aug 1, 2005)

Sure puts a whole to meaning to guncams


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 1, 2005)

man alive!


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## cheddar cheese (Aug 1, 2005)

Damn I really want that. Taking pictures would be so cool!


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## trackend (Aug 1, 2005)

Yea CC but its a Zenit The Lada of the camera world


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## cheddar cheese (Aug 1, 2005)

I dont care, it looks cool


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