# Greatest aircraft ever?



## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 19, 2005)

Quite self explainitory..........

Spitfire or Concorde for me.........


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## mosquitoman (Feb 19, 2005)

I'm going with my favourite the Mossie, it could do any job asked of it


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## Soren (Feb 19, 2005)

F-15 Eagle, none have ever been shot down ! It is unbeaten !


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## P51ace 16 (Feb 19, 2005)

The F 14 Tomcat


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## toffigd (Feb 19, 2005)

P.37b


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 19, 2005)

P-37?  

Too hard for me to choose at the moment...Ive got an idea in my head though....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 19, 2005)

wow i bet that's a new experience..........


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 19, 2005)

Yep 

The greatest plane are fighters.


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## Gemhorse (Feb 19, 2005)

Being true to my faith,'' the De Havilland 98 Mosquito''.....

[closely followed by the De Havilland 103 Hornet, of the same extaordinary calibre].....it may come as a surprise, but there moves underway to re-build the Hornet....check-out www.dhhornet50.net 

....there is an interesting story there about how the Americans reacted to seeing the DH Hornet.....


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## toffigd (Feb 20, 2005)

To those who are a bit surprised with my choice: PZL P.37b is a bomber, designed in late thirties in Poland. One of the best bomber in this era, if not the best.
http://samoloty.webd.pl/polskie/p37.htm


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 20, 2005)

Looks pretty nice 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 20, 2005)

except i can't read any of it!!!


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 20, 2005)

You shold have paid attention more at school...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 20, 2005)

i don't even know what language it is!!


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 20, 2005)

Polish...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 20, 2005)

makes sence...............


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## toffigd (Feb 20, 2005)

Lanc, if you want to know sth more about P.37b you have to search some info on your own. I have not enough time to find any web site in English that says about Polish planes. The main reason I placed the link was the photos of Łoś.


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## Nonskimmer (Feb 20, 2005)

It's a good link. Thanks, toffigd. 8) 
And fortunately for me, I just happen to have a friend who reads Polish. I'll have to send him this link.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 20, 2005)

bet it's not as good as the wellington...........


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## mosquitoman (Feb 20, 2005)

I prefer the Whitley over the Wellington but that's just me


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 20, 2005)

kinda sucked though.............


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 20, 2005)

The Whitley is a great plane, I also prefer it over the Wimpy


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## mosquitoman (Feb 20, 2005)

The Whitley was the first plane to parachute agents into Poland, was the first plane to get an ASV assisted U-Boat kill and dropped the first bombs on Germany, anything wrong with that?


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 20, 2005)

Far better payload than the Wellington too...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 20, 2005)

but her crews hated it, with a passion.............


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## NightHawk (Feb 20, 2005)

SR-71 BlackBird\B-2 Spirit.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 20, 2005)

good choises................


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## Gemhorse (Feb 20, 2005)

The Wellington was a solid performer, which carried the brunt of RAF Bomber Command's night-bombing offensive against Germany, until the four-engined heavies arrived....they also illustrated to the RAF the futility of daylight raids against a superior fighter force....At 4,500 lb bombload, they paved the way to Germany's eventual destruction....Also, their later work in Coastal Command was impressive..........


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## P51ace 16 (Feb 20, 2005)

again F14 Tomcat is the greatest compat aircraft


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## Gemhorse (Feb 20, 2005)

If we're talking jets, I'll go for the Harrier jump-jet.....


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## Chiron (Feb 20, 2005)

Greatest aircraft ever?

I would choose 747


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## Gemhorse (Feb 20, 2005)

That new 777 is gonna be a doozy, the demand for them will outstrip the new Airbus.......


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## P51ace 16 (Feb 20, 2005)

The new airbus is a bust its hard enough to get peope fill 747s Much less 1500 seater


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## P51ace 16 (Feb 20, 2005)




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## P51ace 16 (Feb 20, 2005)




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## P51ace 16 (Feb 20, 2005)

as well as the tomcats  tomcat  tomcat tomcat


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## P51ace 16 (Feb 20, 2005)

as well as the tomcats  tomcat  tomcat tomcat


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## P51ace 16 (Feb 20, 2005)

as well as the tomcats  tomcat  tomcat tomcat


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 20, 2005)

Dont spam like that, if you're gonna post make sure its relevant to the conversation...


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## Soren (Feb 20, 2005)

It would be funny to see Mock-Dogfight between a F-14 and a F-15 !! 8)

God knows who would come out victories !


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## Nonskimmer (Feb 20, 2005)

It's been done. I _think_ the F-15 usually came out on top. Depends on the pilots, too.


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## Soren (Feb 20, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> It's been done. I _think_ the F-15 usually came out on top. Depends on the pilots, too.



Yeah i would have expected that, the F-15 is far more maneuverable.


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## wmaxt (Feb 20, 2005)

Soren said:


> Nonskimmer said:
> 
> 
> > It's been done. I _think_ the F-15 usually came out on top. Depends on the pilots, too.
> ...



What's amazing is that the F-22 is reported to be able to take on 8+ F-15s at one time and win.


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 20, 2005)

Wow...I have heard much about the F-22 but seen little...


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## Nonskimmer (Feb 20, 2005)

From what I've come to understand, the two major things holding back the F-22 were congress and the engines. That is, the engines that were intended for the production model needed some extra development. 

Then of course, with the end of the Cold War it wasn't considered such a priority anymore. It seems like such an awesome fighter!


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## Soren (Feb 20, 2005)

It will be a sad day when the army switch from using manned fighters to un-manned fighters  

God knows for how long the F-22 will stay in service once its there ! 
I don't think it will be long before it will be un-manned fighters controlling the skies instead.


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## wmaxt (Feb 20, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> Wow...I have heard much about the F-22 but seen little...



I think we see a little more here in the states and my dad still gets the Air Force magazine (a semi internal magazine) which comes to me a month or so later which helps. My favorite planes are still piston powered. In the 70s I had a chance to see P-38's, P-51's, Sea Furies, Corsairs and even 1 year a C-54 (DC-4 4 engine transport) race. It was so cool!

An interesting tid-bit I picked up from the history channel - at the 1949 Cleveland air races the pilots/owners tried to make the race more compettetive by having the P-38's fly in their own class! Three of the competetors were F2Gs the 3,000 horse Corsairs. The winner was F2G #57 which is now flying in Arizona. The P-38s came in 4th and 5th in front of all the P-51's etc. but behind two F2Gs and a "Highly Modified" P-39!


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 20, 2005)

Wow, must have been some P-39!

A DC-4 race eh? Sounds pretty cool


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## evangilder (Feb 20, 2005)

The F2G wouldbe a hard one to beat. It was running the R-4360 Pratt and Whitney engine in it. That was 4 rows of cylinders! 3,000 horsepower in that airframe is a recipe for speed.


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## DaveB.inVa (Feb 20, 2005)

Tell me more about the C-54 race!!


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 21, 2005)

Has anyone here ever been to the Reno air races?


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## evangilder (Feb 21, 2005)

My boss went to Reno several years and was working in the pits for a buddy of his. He got to see "Rare Bear" taxi by!


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 21, 2005)

evangilder said:


> The F2G wouldbe a hard one to beat. It was running the R-4360 Pratt and Whitney engine in it. That was 4 rows of cylinders! 3,000 horsepower in that airframe is a recipe for speed.



And here is that engine! 8)


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## mosquitoman (Feb 21, 2005)

That's a big engine


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 21, 2005)

One day Im gonna design me a car and insert that engine into it


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## trackend (Feb 21, 2005)

It wont' work all the sides of the cylinders are missing  


I love cut aways that engine is a work of art


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 21, 2005)

I didnt mean that exact engine 

But yep, I agree 8)


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## Erich (Feb 21, 2005)

how about a WW 2 engine ? slightly weatherd but what an incredible find by some German associates.

Bf 110G-2 shot down by P-51's of the 354th fg in Decmber 1943. the Bf 110 was on the tail of some B-17's ready to pounce when in trun got nailed....


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 21, 2005)

Nice! 8)


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## trackend (Feb 21, 2005)

Greatest aircraft ever?
Wright brothers first powered model although heavier than air machines had flown before them , it was their's that all power drive aircraft followed on from so it is for me the greatest ever aircraft.
just for that famous first step.


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 21, 2005)

Makes sense 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 21, 2005)

yeah but it wasn't that good or that great, if you want a landmark plane, go for a bleriot (i know there's a funny puctuation mark thingy), he made the first flight from france to england, the first flight that was reckonised at the time as being of any significance............


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## Viper (Feb 21, 2005)

for the best id say, right now the F-35 (more advanced F-22) and the F-14


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## Viper (Feb 21, 2005)

you should look up the F-35, its amazing


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## Nonskimmer (Feb 21, 2005)

Yes it is! It even resembles a smaller, STOVL capable F-22.


F-35 Joint Strike Fighter:


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 22, 2005)

I cant make out whats going on in the second picture


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## mosquitoman (Feb 22, 2005)

It's an F-35 flying methinks


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 22, 2005)

Yes but I dont get the writing on the ground


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 22, 2005)

i think that's to aid pilots, but the F-35 isn't a great aircraft..........


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## Nonskimmer (Feb 22, 2005)

Why do you say that?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 22, 2005)

well what has it done to make it so great?? most of the other planes mentioned have a claim to fame, they're done something special, what's the F-35 done?? it isn't even in service yet..............


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## Nonskimmer (Feb 22, 2005)

So what are you saying then? That by default it's crap, because it hasn't entered service yet? Give it a few years.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 22, 2005)

greatness is not the same as ability, in terms of abilty i know it's very good however it's not great, for example i think the spitfire is a great plane as if you ask a member of the public that know's nothing of WWII aviation to name a WWII aircraft, there's a damned good chance they'll say the spitfire, they know nothing of WWII but they know about the spitfire, that's a great aircraft...............


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## evangilder (Feb 22, 2005)

That may be true in England, Lanc, but you would probably hear Mustang or Corsair in the US. I think it depends alot on where the person you ask is from.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 22, 2005)

but you get my point yes?? greatness is not the same as ability.........


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 22, 2005)

However ability is certainly an important factor in greatness...


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## Soren (Feb 22, 2005)

evangilder said:


> That may be true in England, Lanc, but you would probably hear Mustang or Corsair in the US. I think it depends alot on where the person you ask is from.



I think you'll hear Mustang alot in the U.S., as it is regarded as WW2's best fighter in the U.S..


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## evangilder (Feb 22, 2005)

Agreed, Soren. But I am not sure as most of the people I know have an active interest in WWII, so I am not sure what someone who knew little of WWII would say. I would think that most people recognize a Corsair because of the gull-wings.


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## Nonskimmer (Feb 22, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> but you get my point yes?? greatness is not the same as ability.........


Ah, I see what you're getting at now. The F-4 Phantom was a great aircraft. Classic in fact, for the role it played in Vietnam. Used by the US Navy, Marine Corps, _and_ Air Force, in various models. I believe only the Air Force put a gun on it's Phantoms.


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## Soren (Feb 22, 2005)

evangilder said:


> Agreed, Soren. But I am not sure as most of the people I know have an active interest in WWII, so I am not sure what someone who knew little of WWII would say. I would think that most people recognize a Corsair because of the gull-wings.



Yes, your probably right. However its not like the Mustang is unrecognizable by non WWII entusiast's either, it is infact one of the most mentioned fighters. (Thats my experience at least !  )


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 22, 2005)

Over here, Its Spitfire. Nearly everyone knows about the Spitfire. The odd person might know about the Hurricane and Lancaster though. The Bf-109 is reasonably well known also, except they just call it "The Messerschmitt"


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## Nonskimmer (Feb 22, 2005)




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## MikeMan (Feb 22, 2005)

LOL

That F-18 model is classic.


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## Nonskimmer (Feb 22, 2005)

It would be good for lake fishing too! 

("Sea F-18" is kind of a play on words. Canadian Air Force F-18's are called CF-18's. Get it?  )


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 23, 2005)

nice model 

and i get the CF-18 thing.............


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## evangilder (Feb 23, 2005)

Too funny!


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## DAVIDICUS (Feb 24, 2005)

Of all time? Easy, the B-70 Valkrie.


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 25, 2005)

I dunno, It was certainly fantastic but it didnt see service...

Im going with the B-52 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 25, 2005)

i think the B-52's definately in the running..............


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 25, 2005)

Hell yeah, I love it...it is a truely great plane


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## evangilder (Feb 25, 2005)

I would go with the DC-3/C-47. That airplane saw service in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. It is still in use today by some companies to haul cargo into the colder recesses of Canada, where jet fuel turns to jelly in the cold. When it was originally designed, one of the requirements was that it would be able to fly with one engine and land okay. To test it, they took off and flew an entire flight on one engine! 

Granted it wasn't an elegant fighter or bomber, but when it came to hauling troops or cargo, it was always there and in some cases, still is! I'm a big fan of the Goony Bird.


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 25, 2005)

I can see the logic in that; good choice 8)


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## trackend (Feb 27, 2005)

You have a good point there Evan, how many aircraft designs can boast a working life of seventy years like the Dak. What gets me even now (externally) it doesn't look like a design thats that old (Brilliant) and a war record that is unmatched in the field of logistics.and thats before you look at its Puff roll.


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## mosquitoman (Feb 27, 2005)

And to think that was delivered in the same year as the first flight of the Spit and the Hurricane is amazing


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## Nonskimmer (Feb 27, 2005)

It's a classic!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 27, 2005)

very good looking as well..........


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 27, 2005)

Yah but im still with the B-52...I should think it will eclipse the DC-3's service lenght before long....


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## trackend (Feb 27, 2005)

good aircraft but Its still got twenty years to go. First B52 in service 1955 and its a single role plane.


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 27, 2005)

Bloody good plane though...


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## trackend (Feb 27, 2005)

No doubting that cheesy


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## evangilder (Feb 28, 2005)

That's a nice shot of the DC-3 Trackend!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 28, 2005)

i'd take a B-52 over a C-47 any day..........


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 28, 2005)

Good man, we agree on something! 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 28, 2005)

but i'd take a Vulcan over a B-52...........

sorry i had to stop us agreeing on something, it's not good for our health........


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 28, 2005)

And I would take an XB-70 over a Vulcan!


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## mosquitoman (Feb 28, 2005)

Vulcan all the way!


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## trackend (Mar 1, 2005)

Sorry guys, I like the look of the Vulcan but greatest aircraft of all time?.
I doubt it , apart from a show in the Falklands its combat record is nothing special indeed its service record as a whole is ok, but nothing special for a bomber , the only thing it has in it's favor is striking looks. I'm inclined to go with Evan,s selection of the DC3


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## evangilder (Mar 1, 2005)

I agree Trackend. The Vulcan is a good-looking airplane but I wouldn't consider it the best of all time. If you look at the C-47/DC-3, it was flown by a large amount of countries. In the US alone, it flew in WWII, Korea and Vietname and is still being used in civilian life to transport cargo in Canada, the northern US and central and south America. Ike called it one of the keys to vistory in WWII.


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## trackend (Mar 1, 2005)

Eisenhower was right Evan if theres one plane that can be called war winning it s the DC3 even if it didn.t do the glamorous jobs 10,123 aircraft being produced for military use out of a total production run of 10,926 that record takes some beating.
At the peak of production 18.5 planes being built per day in two factorys thats what you call productivity and I believe 800 or so are still in service today. Thats some bird.


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## evangilder (Mar 1, 2005)

They were also license-built by the Japanese (before the war, they secured the license) and the Russians. I have seen widely varied numbers on the number that still fly, but I don't have an accurate account. I am currently working on a presentation for March 19 on the C-47 and Operation Varsity. I will see what other cool things I can find out about the Goony Bird.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 1, 2005)

sorry i was never making an argument for the vulcan being the greatest aircraft of all time, i was just saying that i'd prefer one to a C-47..............

and different people say different things, "Bomer" Harris said the lancaster was the greatest single factor in winning the war over germany, different people, different opinions................


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 1, 2005)

Who the hell is Bomer Harris 

Yep, someone reckons the Willys Jeep won the War...


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## trackend (Mar 2, 2005)

Evan I sure would like to see one of your lectures
I'm the first to admit although interested in aircraft I am no expert by any means. So any information would be and is very interesting (that goes for all you fellas) 
I have a question there seems to be vast amounts of information on all manner of aircraft much of it contradictory so how, when you're researching for a presentation do you filter the wheat from the chaff or do you (in the case of say aircraft production numbers ) correlate the figures then take an average?. 
sorry if Ive gone off thread a bit lads


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## mosquitoman (Mar 2, 2005)

Don't worry it's not as if we don't go off-topic anyway


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## evangilder (Mar 2, 2005)

When preparing for presentations, I comb through the web and alot of books. When possible, I hit the national archives for records and in some cases, records from the manufacturer. The key to presenting useful information is to never take anything from a single source, no matter how good it appears. I have seen wide ranges of things, like surviving examples is a good variance. In those cases, I usually state that exact numbers are not known, but the estimates are between x and y. 

I also have a great aviation library at my disposal at the museum, plus guys that flew and work/worked on the aircraft during and after the war. I always verify verbal facts though, because in some cases, you are hearing a memory from 60 years ago. 

I am not an expert either, I learn as I go through each presentation. Whenever possible, I try to get someone who was involved with the aircraft to speak. One of my best guests was Don, who flew in the battles of Midway and Leyte Gulf. He is normally a quiet, unassuming man. Once he got talking though, it was truly amazing! He is also well organized and has folders from the different battles he flew in with pictures and unit histories. His records are a historians dream!


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## trackend (Mar 2, 2005)

Thats very interesting Evan, thanks, especially about your guest speakers my father has several ship mates from his war time days that he corresponds with whom he saw action with and when you speak to them each fella has a had different war even though they may have been side by side obviously Items like there was fifty aircraft from so and so that flew in from the east are verifiable as I appreciate. But as you inter-mate there is no substitute for hearing the memories of the veterans that bring it to life my grandfather used to regale me with his reminiscences of the first world war and you could see the years fall away from him as he revisited places in his mind that I'm very glad I haven't had to go too. As you say it must be a historians dream if a chap like your guest speaker Don has kept logs etc of his missions although this seems to be more common among fliers than the other services. Harping on a bit about each chaps war being different I saw not long ago some veterans of D-Day and one marine who was On Omaha said as he ran up the beach he was saying the lords pray over and over out loud where as the guy next to him was shouting out every swear word he could think of I have always found little things like that say more about the people and war than just about anything.
Sorry if Ive prattled on guys but I must admit I find its the people who lived or died I find even more interesting that the machinery of war 
Once again thanks Evan for your interesting reply to my question.
OK enough of my waffling guys back to the thread  
Greatest aircraft ever still the Dakota come on you lot convince me otherwise  or it's gonna be a tinfish from my old Stringbag straight up the PC for you blokes


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## mosquitoman (Mar 2, 2005)

trackend said:


> Greatest aircraft ever still the Dakota come on you lot convince me otherwise  or it's gonna be a tinfish from my old Stringbag straight up the PC for you blokes



I surrender, the greatest aircraft ever is the Dakota!


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## evangilder (Mar 2, 2005)

Yes, trackend, it's the veteran stories that make it all very interesting. I found that if I just regurgitate facts and figures and development process of machines, the material is very dry. So I limit that info, just enough to tell the story of how the plane came to be before moving on to the stories of the people involved with the machines. Being able to have a vet on hand who is willing to speak about his experiences with the aircraft is the added bonus. 

One of the interesting aspects of the latest presentation that I gave on the F4U Corsair was that the top three Corsair aces were also Medal of Honor recipients. I also printed out pictures of those guys and put the text of their MOH citations on the same sheet. Puts a more human element into the story.

I am with you on the Dakota/Skytrain. Without it, D-Day, Operation Varsity and a number of other inivasions would have been that much more difficult. If you guys haven't heard of Operation Varsity, do a google search and read about it. Sadly,it is one of the least heard of Operations of WWII, but it was the biggest and most successful airborne operations in history!


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## mosquitoman (Mar 2, 2005)

It's not just the para drops, IMO the most amazing job they did was fly the Hump across the Himalayas. They had to contend with the high pressure, incredibly bad weather and on top of that there were fighters swarming all over the place


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## evangilder (Mar 2, 2005)

The C-46 was more common crossing the hump though.


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## mosquitoman (Mar 2, 2005)

my mistake


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## trackend (Mar 3, 2005)

I took your advice Evan and had a gander at the various operation Varsity sites I found this one contained a fasinating account of one action
http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0396valor_print.html


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## evangilder (Mar 3, 2005)

That's a good one, trackend! I had not seen that one and should have looked on the AFA website for Varsity. That is the website of the Air Force Association, which I have yet to join. They had a great account of a couple of USAAF pilots that were awarded the MOH for their heroism during operation Torch. Varsity was huge, and successful. I wonder why it is so unknown.


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## trackend (Mar 3, 2005)

I had a look at the timeline and there was nothing as big taking place at the time so it does seem a bit strange perhaps because its only known to most as the Rhine crossing .


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