# Hans Ulrich Rudel, Tank Destroyer...



## lesofprimus (Sep 12, 2004)

Although this guy has been touted as a political pawn and a poster child for the Nazi government and whatnot, this guy was truly amazing, all the Bull Shizit aside....

Hers just some info and stories....

Top German Tank Killers...

1 Oberst Hans-Ulrich Rudel 519+ tanks 11 Air to air Kills 
2 Ofw. Anton Hübsch 120+ 8 kills
3 Hptm. Gerhard Stüdemann 117
4 Ofw. Alois Wosnitza 104 2 kills
5 Lt. Jacob Jenster 100+ 
6 Hptm. Hendrik Stahl 100+ 
7 Lt. Anton Korol 99 
8 Oblt. Wilhelm Joswig 88
9 Oblt. Max Diepold 87
10 Lt. Wilhelm Noller 86

Hans Rudel would make good use of the Stuka throughout World War 2 and in it, become the most highly decorated Combat Aviator of all time... Rudel flew 2530 combat missions and destroyed 519+ Tanks, 800+ other Military Vehicles, 150+ Gun Emplacements, 4 Armored Trains, 70 Landing Craft, 1 Battleship (the 'Marat'), 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, and (while flying a FW190) managed to shoot down 11 enemy planes as well...

He was shot down more than 30 times by enemy forces, and innumerable aircraft were brought back to base that were later written off, due to heavy combat damage... He was directly involved in 6 rescue missions to save members of his own squadron from imprisonment... His official medal, the highest in all of Germany, was officially designated as: Golden Oak Wreaths with Swords and Diamonds top the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross...

He was the most highly decorated soldier of the 3rd Reich, and still remains the most highly decorated wartime aviator in the world...


Unlike the situation with the Soviets, German decorations were awarded without regard to rank. And in contrast to the Western Allies, they were never awarded for single acts of conspicuous bravery, but rather for a consistent record of personal gallantry and success in combat.

15 Jan 42: Knight's Cross...
Equivalent of the Congressional Medal of Honor or Britain's Victoria Cross....

14 Apr 43: Knight's Cross with Oakleaves....
Higher level of above, awarded rarely...

25 Nov 44: Knight's Cross with Oakleaves Swords ....
Won by those who had performed the most extreme acts of personal gallantry on a daily basis.... Awarded very rarely: most often posthumously...

29 Mar 44: Knight's Cross with Oakleaves, Swords Diamonds...
Extraordinarily prestigious award... Like winning four Congressional Medals of Honor or Victoria Crosses... Back-dated to the time of his escape across the Dnjester when conferred on 25 Nov.....

1 Jan 45: Knight's Cross with Golden Oakleaves, Swords Diamonds...
Note that the Golden Oakleaves were awarded once during the entire war, the decoration being instituted in answer to Rudel's continuing feats of unprecedented heroism.... 

It was on the Eastern Front in 1941 that Rudel began to show the world the legend that he would become... In September 1941, Rudel engaged the Russian fleet at Kronstadt, destroying a Russian Cruiser and the Battleship Marat on two separate missions... On September 23rd of 1941, Rudel's Group (1st and 2nd Wing) attacked elements of the Soviet Baltic Fleet in Kronstadt harbor (Leningrad area)... During the attack, Rudel sunk Soviet Battleship "Marat" with 1000kg bomb hitting its ammunition store and breaking the ship in half...

"We've got her ... you must have hit her ammunition store...She is blowing up !" (Rudel's rear gunner Scharnovski over the intercom)... 

On Christmas Day, December 24th of 1941, Rudel flew his 500th mission and on December 30th, was decorated with Deutsches Kreuz (German Cross) in Gold by General Freiherr Wolfram von Richthofen himself (Manfred von Richthofen's cousin)... By early 1942, he had flown more than 400 missions; receiving the Luftwaffe Goblet of Honor and upgrading his Iron Cross to an Iron Cross in Gold, and then again to Ritterkreuztrager... It was during 1942 that he defied his commanding officers twice by forcibly reassigning himself back to the Eastern Front, once after being removed to become a training instructor, the other time after being hospitalized for Jaundice...

In 1943, he as sent away yet again to try to investigate a new anti-tank weapon for aircraft... So impressed with this weapon, his Ju-87 Junker was equipped with this new tank-buster cannon, and he quickly reassigned himself to the Eastern Front... On February 10th of 1943, Hans Rudel flew his 1000th mission and became a national hero to the German public.... Rudel was then posted to the new special "Panzerjagdkommando Weiss" unit formed at Briansk to test newly developed tank-busting version of Ju-87 D-3.... Modified Stukas armed with two Rheinmetall-Borsig 37mm (BK) Flak 18 guns were developed at the Luftwaffe's experimental station at Rechlin, Germany... Prototypes were used at first against Soviet landing crafts in the Black Sea and in the space of three weeks, Rudel destroyed 70 such boats... In March of 1943, during a tank battle around Belgorod, Rudel knocked out his first tank with his new tank-busting Stuka...

"... my rear gunner who said that the tank exploded like a bomb and he had seen bits of it crashing down behind us."

On April 14th of 1943, Hans Rudel was awarded Oakleaves to his Knights Cross... This award and presentation by Hitler came with a stipulation added by Rudel himself; that he would not accept it if he was not allowed to continue to fly missions... Captain Hans Rudel's squadron of nine tank-busting Ju-87 G-1 was assigned to support of the 3rd SS Panzer Division "Totenkopf.... On the first day of the Operation Citadel, during his first mission, Rudel knocked out four Soviet tanks and by the evening, his score grew to twelve.... 

"We are all seized with a kind of passion for the chase from the glorious feeling of having saved much German bloodshed with every tank destroyed." 

At the same time, because of Rudel's squadron's success, Panzerstaffels (Tank Destroyer Squadrons) were formed... Based on his experiences, Rudel developed new tactics for Panzerstaffels... He found that the best way to knock out tanks was to hit them in the back (T-34's rear mounted engine and its cooling system did not permit the installation of heavier armor plating) or the side.... Interesting fact is that attacking the back of the tank meant that the plane had to come from the rear flying towards friendly territory - a huge advantage if the plane got damaged during the attack... Later on, more Ju-87 D-3s were converted to tank-busters and were designated as Ju-87 G-1 (often nicknamed Panzerknacker - Tank Buster or Kanonenvogel - Cannon Bird) and started arriving on the Eastern Front in October of 1943... 

By September of 1943, he had destroyed his 100th tank after excessive battles on the Russian front... His Knights Cross was again upgraded to include Swords, which again came with a stipulation: that his rear gunner received an upgrade to his Knights cross, personally, by Luftwaffe Field Marshall Goring himself...

By March of 1944, he had been promoted to Major... In early March of 1944, he flew his 1500th mission and was promoted to the rank of Major.... In late March, during a mission, Rudel's squadron was attacked by a squadron of Soviet Lavochkin La-5 fighters.... One Stuka was shot down and crash landed with its crew unharmed... Hans Rudel decided to land and rescue his comrades stuck in the enemy territory.... He landed and rescued his friends but could not take off because of the soft ground.... They were forced to escape on foot towards German lines being chased by the Russians.... Rudel and his comrades reached the river Dniestr and swam 600m in the ice cold water and just before reaching the other side, Rudel's rear gunner drowned.... Eventually, wounded Rudel was the only one who managed to escape and reached German lines.... He then returned to his unit, where he was cheerfully welcomed by his comrades....

Another Version:

March 44: Disaster struck when Rudel landed behind Soviet lines to retrieve a downed German aircrew.... Snow and mud bogged down the airplane, making it impossible to take off..... Approaching Soviet troops forced everyone to flee on foot, but barring their escape was the 900 foot wide river Dnjestr.... The Germans stripped to their longjohns, and swam across the ice-clogged river.... Rudel's close friend and crewman, Erwin Henstchel, drowned a few feet from the far shore.... They had flown 1490 missions together at the time of Hentschel's death.... His body was never recovered....

Rudel was pursued by hundreds of Soviet troops who were intent on collecting the 100,000 ruble bounty which Stalin had placed on his head, and he was shot in the shoulder while they chased him with dogs and on horseback..... Through incredible ingenuity, audacity, and raw determination, Rudel escaped and made his way, alone and unarmed, back home, despite being more than 30 miles behind Soviet lines when he began his 24 hour trek.... He was barefoot and almost naked in the sub-freezing winter weather, without food, compass, or medical attention.... His escape stands as the single most legendary example of personal bravery and luck during the Second World War, but he never fully recovered emotionally from Hentschel's death, for which he blamed himself throughout the remainder of his life.....

On March 29th of 1944, for his bravery, Major Hans-Ulrich Rudel was awarded Diamonds to his Knights Cross with Oakleaves and Swords, the highest German military award..... In November of 1944, while flying near Budapest, he was shot in the thigh but returned to service few days later with his leg in a plaster cast.... On January 1st of 1945, Rudel was awarded the Knights Cross with Golden Oakleaves, Swords and Diamonds, being the only recipient of this award specially created for him... ....Hitler presented this to Rudel on January 1st of 1945, again. Rudel agreed to take the award, yet again with the insistence that he be allowed to continue to fly missions. Hitler was doubtful; he did not want his favorite soldier to be lost against the overwhelming odds. Amazed by Rudels stubbornness in front of an increasingly unstable Hitler, and in awe of a pilot who refused to be grounded during a time of extreme danger, even more surprising to the inner circle of the 3rd Reich hierarchy was that Hitler agreed to the demand. But Hitler later revoked his decision, and ordered Rudel to quit flying. Rudel flew on the sly with his unit, accrediting his kills to the unit, was discovered, reprimanded, removed from flying missions, and naturally, then found a way back into the air.... He also had racked up a total of 460 destroyed enemy tanks.... 

In February of 1945, Rudel was seriously wounded and his right thigh was shattered by anti-aircraft fire near Lebus.... He managed to land in German held territory and was quickly taken to the field hospital, where his leg was amputated..... Rudel was then taken to the hospital in Berlin, where he had an artificial limb fitted and then returned to his squadron, but then was promptly back up in the air again with an artificial leg... Eventually, Rudel destroyed 23 tanks while using this prosthetic limb....

In the last days of the war, Colonel Rudel commanded the oldest and the best known close assault / support Stuka group - Schlachtgeschwader 2 Immelmann.... He was still operating with his unit in last days of war on the Eastern Front.... At the end of the war, Rudel wanted to fly a suicide attack with his squadron but his superior ordered him not to take off because "he might be needed later", which might have been the only reason why he didn't do so.... He also volunteered to fly his Stuka into Berlin in May of 1945 to rescue Hitler from the Red Army....

On his last mission, Rudel ordered his squadron to crash-land so that the Allied Forces would not be able to use the planes for their own purposes.... He was captured by American troops, who were so impressed by his wartime feats, absolute defiance and courage, even when captured, that the American guards befriended him.... Regardless of this short-lived companionship, Rudel successfully managed to escape from a P.O.W. camp shortly after the war.... 

Rudel was extremely fortunate to avoid capture by the Soviets, who had put a 100,000 ruble bounty on his head, payable dead or alive... Many other pilots who had the misfortune of being captured by the Soviets, or who were handed over to them by the Americans later, during the Summer of 45, suffered up to 11 years of forced labor in the Siberian gulags after the war... Hundreds of thousands of German soldiers, from generals to privates, died in post-war captivity behind the Iron Curtain.... There has never been a complete accounting, and many are still listed by the modern German government as MIAs....

For some time, he resided in Argentina, where he became associates of other German exiles and established some degree of influence with the quasi-fascist President Juan Peron....


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## kiwimac (Sep 13, 2004)

Rudel was a hell of a pilot (apparently) a pretty nice human being too

Kiwimac


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 13, 2004)

that's a nice shot of the 37mm..................


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## lesofprimus (Sep 13, 2004)

I think so too on all accounts....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 14, 2004)

i think the 37mm makes the stuka look pretty cool...............


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## lesofprimus (Sep 14, 2004)

Makes it look down right mean, similar to what an AC-130 Spectre looks like with all those massive lead throwers on a transport plane....


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## Erich (Oct 23, 2004)

one of the leading propaganda tools of the Thrid Reich especially from mid 1944 onward. Feel that many of his kills should of been given to his squadron mates as the SG 2 history seems to feel that he was a one man tank killer soley responsible for defeating the Soviet tank armies.........ah hmmmmmmmmmmm


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## Vegafox (Dec 16, 2004)

> He found that the best way to knock out tanks was to hit them in the back (T-34's rear mounted engine and its cooling system did not permit the installation of heavier armor plating) or the side....



  



> Rudel was pursued by hundreds of Soviet troops who were intent on collecting the 100,000 ruble bounty which Stalin had placed on his head, and he was shot in the shoulder while they chased him with dogs and on horseback.....



  

LOL, LOL, LOL 



> Rudel was extremely fortunate to avoid capture by the Soviets, who had put a 100,000 ruble bounty on his head, payable dead or alive...



 




> Rudel flew 2530 combat missions and destroyed 519+ Tanks, 800+ other Military Vehicles, 150+ Gun Emplacements, 4 Armored Trains, 70 Landing Craft, 1 Battleship (the 'Marat'), 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, and (while flying a FW190) managed to shoot down 11 enemy planes as well...


 

 

 

Finish.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 16, 2004)

That made no sense whatsoever...


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 17, 2004)

No it didnt...ah well, Im like that most of the time


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## lesofprimus (Dec 17, 2004)

Ur not even close to that... Not even remotely CC...


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 17, 2004)

I see Vegafox is impressed with the large selection of smilies!


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## Vegafox (Dec 17, 2004)

Pudel - RULEZZZ...






Target:
~1x0.5 meter (T-34 cooling system grating) 






On the picture - this grating opened.

Aircraft: 
Ju-87 speed in attack ~ 380-420 km\h

Distance - 400-500 meters (MIN.) 

You believe in Rudel`s tales? 

I -





About 100.000 roubles - simple... It`s D E L I R I U MMMM. 
In Red Army, nobody know about Rudel. Nobody.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 18, 2004)

> In Red Army, nobody know about Rudel. Nobody.


Thats not true.... Many ground commanders, tankers, and anti-air personnel were well aware of Germanys Leading Ground Attack pilot.... Genanies Propaganda Machine was very efficient, to say the least....The 100k Rubles was a fact.. I have ssen Russian propoganda posters stating this fact...

Are u denying the fact that Rudel, or any other # of pilots, could destroy a tank with a 37mm cannon, or aim for a certain area of a tank???? I certainly hope not, cause u just made urself out to be a big idiot...


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## Erich (Dec 18, 2004)

suggest our Soviet friend do some serious research on the Stuka Panzerstaffeln............. at least 5 equipped with a minumum of 10 kanonvogel's. whether you believe in Rudel or not he was not the only tank buster flying the machine. the gun cam films prove the qualities of the a/c in lfiht as it could almost stall out and fire taking on large numbers of soviet tanks from above. The upper armor of the T-34 and the lighter tanks even lend-lease Chruchills were no match for the Stuka and Hs 129's.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 18, 2004)

Nonskimmer said:


> I see Vegafox is impressed with the large selection of smilies!



Anyone willing to do a post including every smiley?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 18, 2004)

man that'd be one seriously big post


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 18, 2004)

Also it would tell a story  

I would do it if the box with all the smileys in actually worked when I clicked on it


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## Vegafox (Dec 18, 2004)

> He found that the best way to knock out tanks was to hit them in the back (T-34's rear mounted engine and its cooling system did not permit the installation of heavier armor plating) or the side....








In scale... 
Any question? 




> The 100k Rubles was a fact.. I have ssen Russian propoganda posters stating this fact...







Show me, please...





p.s. All tank`s casualties of Red Army from enemy aviation in 1941-1945 ~ 3.500 tank`s and SU`s...


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 18, 2004)

Ju-87-G armed with two 37mm cannons.
It's purpose was to approach very low and shoot Soviet tanks from the rear, where they were weak.


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## Vegafox (Dec 18, 2004)

I know.
I simply not believe in "519+ Tanks, 800+ other Military Vehicles, 150+ Gun Emplacements, 4 Armored Trains, 70 Landing Craft, 1 Battleship (the 'Marat'), 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, and (while flying a FW190) managed to shoot down 11 enemy planes as well..."

Yes, Rudel was very brave pilot. Yes, he really sink "Marat". It`s fact. 
I belive, what he destroy russian tanks - it was his work. 
But, when somebody tell me what he destroy 519+ Tanks.... It`s... No comments. Because, when i read his memories...





In some moments i don`t believe what he was pilot...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 18, 2004)

Vegafox said:


> > He found that the best way to knock out tanks was to hit them in the back (T-34's rear mounted engine and its cooling system did not permit the installation of heavier armor plating) or the side....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




See the photo and comment, Vega...


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## Vegafox (Dec 18, 2004)

Comment: crash... Bum-bah-ba-bah... 
speed (in dive) Ju-87 ~ 420 km\h
Pilot begin going out from dive on 500, phisically strong may ~ 400 meters...
On your picture ~ 20-25 m.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 19, 2004)

The planes would come down at something like a 45 degree angle, at around 300km/h...


Besides, the Stukas had auto pullout once the bomb was released, saving the pilot if he blacked out...


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 19, 2004)

When you see clips of Stuka's dive-bombing they aint that far off the ground...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 19, 2004)

it's herd to tell from grainey vidie clips......


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## lesofprimus (Dec 19, 2004)

Although I believe something different from some, heres a different twist.... While some like our pals Erich and Vegaboy doubt the 519 tanks, I myself could believe his #'s could have been even HIGHER.... Rudel wasnt the type of guy to fly a sortie and claim every tank he shot at a kill.. He would have assed and his back seater would have as well.... 

Some of the tanks that he deemed were not kills, may have been.... A damaged tank sometimes would not be removed and/or salvaged due to front lines changing.... Some damaged tanks that were not kills ended up being such....

I understand the proganda portion of what is said of Rudels #'s, but think about it... There werent that many -87 Tank Busters left at the end of that show, and Rudel was a hell of a pilot.. And his closet competitor was some 300 tanks behind him... Look at all the chances (Russian Tanks) Rudel had......

Another way to look at it is how many 37mm shells he fired..... 

He flew more than 600,000 km and used more than 5,000,000 liters of fuel... He dropped over 1,000,000 kg of bombs, fired over 1,000,000 machine gun rounds, over 150,000 20mm rounds and over 5,000 37mm rounds... 

In early March of 1944, he flew his 1500th mission and was promoted to the rank of Major... In late March, during a mission, Rudel's squadron was attacked by a squadron of Soviet Lavochkin La-5 fighters.... One Stuka was shot down and crash landed with its crew unharmed... Rudel decided to land and rescue his comrades stuck in the enemy territory...... He landed and rescued his friends but could not take off because of the soft ground..... They were forced to escape on foot towards German lines being chased by the Russians...... Rudel and his comrades reached the river Dniestr and swam 600m in the ice cold water and just before reaching the other side, Rudel's rear gunner drowned.... Eventually, the wounded Rudel was the only one who managed to escape and reached German lines.... He then returned to his unit, where he was cheerfully welcomed by his comrades.... On March 29th of 1944, for his bravery, Major Hans-Ulrich Rudel was awarded Diamonds to his Knights Cross with Oakleaves and Swords, the highest German military award.....

Thats no BS.... No propoganda there... He earned those Diamonds.... The guy was a hero.. And a hell of a Tank Buster... #'s aside, this guy really was a pro.... Too bad he wasnt Russian or British or American.... 

Imagine what he coulda done to German formations in a IL2/M3.......

Reactions: Like Like:
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## cheddar cheese (Dec 19, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> it's herd to tell from grainey vidie clips......



Not really, you can see the height off the ground fine...


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## Vegafox (Dec 20, 2004)

http://www.iremember.ru/pilots/khukhrikov/khukhrikov.html

Especially this 


> _A.D. And did you install 37mm guns?_
> 
> We had 37mm guns, 40 shells per gun. I didn't fly one of those. They *didn't work out*.



Why? Why "they didn`t work out"?

Statistics:
LaGG-3 IT (37mm) hit at tank 3 shells of 35 (simple - hit in tank, not in his back)
IL-2 - 3 shells of 55... 

G.M. Ryabushko (HSU, 828 GShAP)
(It`s my translate, from http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/ryabushko/index.htm
)

" VYa (37mm) was more powerful gun than ShVAK. In our regiment was *several* (in REGIMENT) event, when VYa knocked out german tank`s - powerfuf gun. Burn tank - not simply, therefore that causes was rare. You need, that you hit in tank - AP shell (every third in ribbon), and you need hit tank in back and with angle 45-90 grad." (it`s time to learn English...)


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## lesofprimus (Dec 21, 2004)

That was a pretty good interview.... Kinda curious myself as to what he means "They didnt work out"......


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## Erich (Dec 21, 2004)

actually there were many panzerstaffel aces. SG 1, 2, 3 and 77 each had a 10.(Pz) staffel equipped with the G variant, Rudel being the top scorer. I personally beleived becasue of his noteriety as a propaganda tool that many of his kills were done by other men of his staffel. This appears correct as night fighter ace Kurt Welter is given the proposed claim of 29 mosquitos knocked down and even in the so-called offical claims listing he is egioven bountiful credit flying the single seat 262 at night. Reality is another story as the man flew seldom from February 45 onward doing administrative work and incorporating new pilots in the skills they would need to fly the 262 at night. Welter was a propaganda tool extrodinaire, even a myth surrounds his Bronze Ritterkreuz decorated to him.

Reagrdless the trueness covering these two mens lives will never be known..........


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## Udet (Dec 22, 2004)

What I find kind of curious is the fact only German aces are subjected to these processes of doubt and scrutiny.

I seriously doubt ALL (100%) the Me262 claims made by USAAF fighter pilots in clean dogfights, just as there are cases of such claims.

I have guncamera footage of USAAF fighters hitting the Me262; all the shots have one thing in common: the Schwalbe with the tricycle landing gear down, in the process of landing; in some of the shots you can even see the paved runway and even cars in the background.

Ivan Kozhedub was as well, a very powerful propaganda tool of the USSR, and so far, I have never known of any historians suggesting his total bag might have been inflated.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 22, 2004)

As I seem to recall reading somewhere, Pokryshkin may have been one to have openly disputed Kozhedub's total score.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 22, 2004)

can you put that film on the interent for downloads??


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 22, 2004)

That would be very interesting to watch, id certainly take the time to download it.


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## Udet (Dec 22, 2004)

Hello cutties:

I acquired my guncamera footage collection in Mother Russia in 1999. 

Perhaps I can do it, the question is: how do I do that if I have it all on CD?
Make fun on me if you want, but I am not that "hi-tech" in the music/video editing business.

A few weks ago I had some file zipped showing dozens of shots where IL-2 Shturmoviks are getting shot to smithereens by German fighters guncamera, but it got screwed...hell, do not know how that happened.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 22, 2004)

Im sorry but I dont know how to 

Shame about the IL2 footage, that would have been interesting too.


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## Udet (Dec 22, 2004)

The German guncamera footage showed me on how over-inflated the Il-2 is.

If the massive boxes of heavy bombers of the 8th and 15th Air Force (all those hundreds of .50 cal machine guns included) were very vulnerable against the German fighters, try to imagine the fate of formations of several dozens of Il-2´s fitted with one rear defensive gun.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 22, 2004)

Ouch...that would be bad


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## lesofprimus (Dec 22, 2004)

I have said this before, and shall repeat it again.. Although heavily armored, more so for AA fire than a fighters cannons, the Il2's were easy prey for a verteran Luftwaffe ace, as most of the kill totals of the leading German aces will testify....

Here are the last 67 victories that Otto Kittel Had on the Eastern Front....

200 26.8.1944 13:54 La-5 3./JG 54 LH-4.4: at 150m 
201 27.8.1944 13:06 Il-2 3./JG 54 LF-9.7: at 2.000m 
202 28.8.1944 11:24 Yak-9 3./JG 54 JM-5.8: at 3.000m 
203 28.8.1944 11:26 Yak-9 3./JG 54 JM-6.2: at 3.000m 
204 28.8.1944 11:27 Yak-9 3./JG 54 JM-3.7: at 1.800m 
205 31.8.1944 17:46 Il-2 2./JG 54 KG-3.2: at 700m [W Mitau] 
206 31.8.1944 17:47 Il-2 2./JG 54 KG-3.4: at 600m [W Mitau] 
207 31.8.1944 17:49 Il-2 2./JG 54 KG-6.3: at 500m [W Mitau] 
208 14.9.1944 10:40 Yak-9 2./JG 54 68 124: at 1.600m 
209 14.9.1944 10:53 Yak-9 2./JG 54 68 156: at 1.200m 
210 14.9.1944 14:50 Il-2 2./JG 54 57 251: at 500m 
211 14.9.1944 14:51 Il-2 2./JG 54 57 254: at 500m 
212 14.9.1944 14:52 Il-2 2./JG 54 57 258: at 300m 
213 14.9.1944 14:54 Il-2 2./JG 54 57 253: at 800m 
214 15.9.1944 15:39 Il-2 2./JG 54 47 377: at 400m 
215 15.9.1944 15:40 Il-2 2./JG 54 37 495: at 200m 
216 16.9.1944 17:12 Il-2 2./JG 54 47 518: at 200m 
217 17.9.1944 8:39 Pe-2 2./JG 54 47 383: at 2.500m 
218 17.9.1944 8:40 P-39 2./JG 54 47 389: at 1.800m 
219 17.9.1944 8:41 Pe-2 2./JG 54 47 522: at 1.500m 
220 20.9.1944 11:10 Yak-9 2./JG 54 47 324: at 1.500m 
221 20.9.1944 11:12 Yak-9 2./JG 54 47 327: at 600m 
222 22.9.1944 10:15 La-5 2./JG 54 47 323: at 3.200m 
223 28.9.1944 11:30 Pe-2 2./JG 54 47 264: at 1.800m 
224 28.9.1944 11:30 Pe-2 2./JG 54 47 291: at 1.800m 
225 28.9.1944 11:37 Pe-2 2./JG 54 57 181: at 1.800m 
226 28.9.1944 11:38 Yak-9 2./JG 54 57 184: at 1.200m 
227 30.9.1944 11:35 Yak-9 2./JG 54 57 174: at 1.200m 
228 30.9.1944 11:36 Il-2 2./JG 54 47 268: at 1.200m 
229 30.9.1944 11:38 Il-2 2./JG 54 57 154: at 150m 
230 7.10.1944 15:10 Yak-9 2./JG 54 48 697: at 1.200m 
231 9.10.1944 8:55 Il-2 2./JG 54 48 782: at 300m 
232 9.10.1944 8:56 Il-2 2./JG 54 48 765: at 200m 
233 9.10.1944 8:58 Il-2 2./JG 54 48 789: at 50m 
234 9.10.1944 13:02 Il-2 2./JG 54 47 241: at 800m 
235 9.10.1944 13:04 Il-2 2./JG 54 47 271: at 200m 
236 10.10.1944 9:11 La-5 2./JG 54 47 139: at 400m 
237 10.10.1944 9:12 Il-2 2./JG 54 47 131: at 100m 
238 10.10.1944 9:12 Il-2 2./JG 54 47 131: at 100m 
239 14.10.1944 11:02 La-5 2./JG 54 16 832: at 3.200m 
240 16.10.1944 11:02 Il-2 2./JG 54 37 345: at 200m 
241 16.10.1944 11:04 La-5 2./JG 54 37 329: at 1.200m 
242 16.10.1944 14:26 Il-2 2./JG 54 37 343: at 600m 
243 16.10.1944 14:28 Il-2 2./JG 54 37 388: at 200m 
244 17.10.1944 13:17 La-5 2./JG 54 37 554 
245 18.10.1944 13:36 Il-2 2./JG 54 27 582: at 700m 
246 18.10.1944 13:37 Il-2 2./JG 54 27 554: at 700m 
247 22.10.1944 15:50 Yak-3 2./JG 54 17 646: at 2.000m 
248 27.10.1944 9:50 Yak-9 2./JG 54 27 647: at 3.500m 
249 27.10.1944 9:51 Yak-9 2./JG 54 27 565: at 3.500m 
250 27.10.1944 9:57 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 625: at 3.000m 
251 27.10.1944 11:48 Pe-2 2./JG 54 17 485: at 2.500m 
252 27.10.1944 11:50 Pe-2 2./JG 54 27 543: at 1.000m 
253 27.10.1944 13:24 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 574 
254 27.10.1944 13:32 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 651: at 600m 
255 29.10.1944 9:42 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 488: at 10m 
256 29.10.1944 9:45 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 491: at 15m 
257 29.10.1944 11:57 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 624: at 500m 
258 29.10.1944 12:09 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 497: at 700m 
259 29.10.1944 12:10 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 623: at 600m 
260 29.10.1944 12:11 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 628: at 600m 
261 30.10.1944 13:22 Il-2 2./JG 54 27 541: at 1.000m 
262 30.10.1944 13:52 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 489: at 600m 
263 30.10.1944 15:26 Il-2 2./JG 54 17 622: at 900m 
264 19.11.1944 11:40 La-5 2./JG 54 29 754 
265 1945 - E/a 2./JG 54 - 
266 1945 - E/a 2./JG 54 - 
267 14.2.1945 - Il-2 2./JG 54 Dzukste 

Easy pickings..... Guaranteed, the Il-2/M3 had different tank-busting battlefield tactics than the Ju-87G.... But the loss rate for those Ju-87G's was ALOT lower than the loss rate for those armored Il-2's...


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 23, 2004)

Possibly because there were a lot less of them?


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 23, 2004)

Still, though, the ratio of those that fought and those that were lost is not even comparable to the IL-2's!


(Still speaking of tankbusters, not regular models)


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## lesofprimus (Dec 23, 2004)

This is a fact..... I think the big thing was that the pilots flying the Ju-87G's were more qualified than the Il-2M pilots.... U didnt have a kid just off the train jumping in and knockin tanks out with the 37mm.....


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 23, 2004)

Good point...


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## CharlesBronson (May 25, 2005)

Images from the *Marat* after the Rudels attack on 23 september 1941, only the shallow waters of Kronstad saved her to be acomplete loss.


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## reddragon (May 26, 2005)

Very impressive!


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## Michael Dorosh (Aug 11, 2005)

kiwimac said:


> Rudel was a hell of a pilot (apparently) a pretty nice human being too
> 
> Kiwimac



Yeah, for an unrepentant Nazi. Did you read his book?


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## lesofprimus (Aug 11, 2005)

Yea he was true to his cause, but damn what a pilot and marksman he was...


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## dieseltaylor (Aug 11, 2005)

It seems some posters do not understand that Rudel actually did hunt tanks and stressed highly that slow speed was required. He also did not waste time attacking defended targets as the cost in planes was too high.

I do not know the stall speed for a Stuka G but if we assume that it is 100kph then to line up a tank using the MG to walk the target seems eminently possible, and then to fire when certain of a hit.

BTW the G was not designed to act as a dive-bomber and had unnecessary parts removed though it could still carry a bomb.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 11, 2005)

> He also did not waste time attacking defended targets as the cost in planes was too high.


Even so, he was still shot down over 15 times by antiaircraft fire....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 12, 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:


> kiwimac said:
> 
> 
> > Rudel was a hell of a pilot (apparently) a pretty nice human being too
> ...



Does not change the fact that he was one of the best of the best.


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## Ruedesheim (Jul 3, 2006)

Hello to the moderators and to all, and thank you. I never posted in this forum because my English is very bad. I'm trying to find out more information about my uncle Anton Korol. He was a friend of Rudel, is listed in this forum as nr. 9 of the "Stuka-Aces". After the war, he lived in Ruedesheim-Germany, but unfortunately, I lost contact with his family when I was 15. I would like to learn more about him, his role in the Rudel-Team, when and where he died, and where his buried. Thanks for any information.


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## Erich (Jul 3, 2006)

greetings again my young German friend !

we have chatted several times in the past about your relative and I thought you were going to send me some photos and text on him via the Axis.forums.com board ? You of course are aware that he replaced Rudel as Staffelkapitän of 10.(PZ)/ SG 2 with the Kanonvögels and Korol had 99 kills to his credit via the tank buster 

viele Grüße


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## Twitch (Aug 3, 2006)

Hey Lesofprimus- I'll jump on this revived old thread I guess. I admire Rudels skill and score also. But can can you believe on another site someone mentioned something like "yeah but he was a big Nazi believer." In other words trying to discount his acomplishments. I responded I have yet to see proof of how ideology can make you a better skilled pilot- make you dodge enemy bullet and make yours run true? 

Believe it or not this dolt actually argued that strong believe in naziscm could make you a better pilot in combat since you'd try real fanatically. So what then, Rudel was bad? HAHAHAHA! Yeah, thinking of the Furher would assist in your navigational skills and gunnery.

Geez I'm so sick of goofballs that are still prejudiced about "enemies" and they weren't even old enough to have been in WW 2.


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## Hunter368 (Aug 3, 2006)

Very good stories Dan. I will have to finish this thread later. Good job


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## lesofprimus (Aug 3, 2006)

Spank u very little Hunter... Even tho his claimed/credited kills are exagerrated, halving his total kills for propaganda purposes, he still knocked out a shitload of tanks and killed ALOT of Russians....

And who cares if he was a die-hard Nazi, he served his country far and beyond the norm....


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 3, 2006)

A very rare video, Rudel make some aerobics..and then climbed to his Ju-87D  

Wochenschau-Archiv


Left clik only.


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## Hunter368 (Aug 3, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> Spank u very little Hunter... Even tho his claimed/credited kills are exagerrated, halving his total kills for propaganda purposes, he still knocked out a shitload of tanks and killed ALOT of Russians....
> 
> And who cares if he was a die-hard Nazi, he served his country far and beyond the norm....



Very true Dan. I read his book and it was a great read. He seemed like a great guy and a very loyal kind and caring leader to his men. Landing his plane more than once to save downed pilots in enemy country and on dangerous soft and rough ground. He did not have to risk life to do that more than once, but he did.

The whole argument about ground kills or air kills by German pilots does not hold any ground with me. Every single country over claimed kills, its proven. On average from reading hundreds of books comparing them to actual lost from both sides etc as a general average when pilots flew over enemy land and claimed kills (that is a important fact, when over enemy lands) they claimed about twice as much as they actually shot down, its a fact. It does not matter who they were German, USA, UK, Russian, Japan they all did it. But it was mistakes made by error and not trying to inflate their kill totals. We have to look at kill totals as what they are......estimates based on all the best information available at the time and using their best judgment.

Politics of a pilots????? I agree with you who gives a carp what his politics were. This is a forum based on WW2 planes and pilots........not politics!

He was one of the greatest pilots ever no doubt about it anyone who doubts that does not know what a pilot is.


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## Twitch (Aug 4, 2006)

Hunter it's beeen a good long whiles since I read my copy of Stuka Pilot but didn't he once pop off an IL-2 with the 37 mms? Or was he in the model with the 20 mms?


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 4, 2006)

Acording to that book yes, Rudel destroyed a Il-2 with a pair of 37mm AP shells, pretty lucky shots.


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 4, 2006)




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## Erich (Aug 4, 2006)

Charles are you pointing to 1942 with the destruction of Il-2 with his Kanonvögel ? The 87G-1 with 3.7cm was not available till 1943. My full understanding is that the rear gunner claimed 1 Soviet a/c and that Rüdel actually shot down the rest of the Soviet a/c in a Fw 190F. there are a few discrepencies in his own work and works by others on this graound attack pilot, Rüdel flying a variety of Ju 87's, Fw 190's including the Dora 9


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 4, 2006)

I was pointing to the IL-2 claim, the date just happen to be in the tail of the arrow, The Il-2 destroyed with the 3,7 cm BK flying the Ju-87 G is noted in his book "stuka pilot"


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## kiwimac (Aug 5, 2006)

Regardless of the man's politics. He was a fine pilot and apparently a fine human being as well. Simply fighting for your country to the best of your ability does not necessarily make you a follower of those in power.

Kiwimac


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## goonboy (Jun 22, 2007)

Just to let everyone know, Han Ulrich Rudel was a fine human being, unlike the prick and fanatical Nazi, Erich Hartmann. Apparently, the two were locked up in the same prison during American captivity and they hated each other. I heard this from a former Luftwaffe pilot.


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## Erich (Jun 22, 2007)

did you now ? well lets here the former Luftwaffe pilots name that makes the claim through you shall we ??

E


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## CharlesBronson (Jun 22, 2007)

I think that Rudel and Hartmann never share a imprisoment, Rudel handed over himself to the U.S Army , Hartmann do the same but was snatched from the american truck by a soviet armored column.












Oberst Rudel's Ju 87 G-2 Crashed at Kitzingen


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 23, 2007)

goonboy said:


> Just to let everyone know, Han Ulrich Rudel was a fine human being, unlike the prick and fanatical Nazi, Erich Hartmann. Apparently, the two were locked up in the same prison during American captivity and they hated each other. I heard this from a former Luftwaffe pilot.



And did you know Hartmann personally to be able to say that. Not every German was a Nazi....

Second people that have met Hartmann as he flew in the United States after the war say the exact opposite of what you say.

I suggest that you dont make stupid comments like that unless you have actual facts.

Also another thing that I just noticed about your post.

*Hartmann was never really in American Captivity. He surrendured to the US 90th Infantry Division along with his ground crew and the fellow pilots of HIS suadron and was handed over to the Russians. He was in Russian Captivity until until 1955.

Please get your facts straight again, do some research before you post rubbish.*

...Jackson


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## CharlesBronson (Jun 23, 2007)

To call "prick" an great ace like Hartmann would make goonboy get kicked inmediatly from several forums that I know.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 23, 2007)

I considered doing it myself, buy then decided to wait for his childish response (that is deffinatly going to come) before I do so.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 24, 2007)

goonboy said:


> Just to let everyone know, Han Ulrich Rudel was a fine human being, unlike the prick and fanatical Nazi, Erich Hartmann. Apparently, the two were locked up in the same prison during American captivity and they hated each other. I heard this from a former Luftwaffe pilot.


Who was the pilot, Gottfied Dulias?

I have met people from Lockheed and from the USAF who knew Hartman and they had the utmost respect for the man and he was far from a fanatical Nazi!

Flat out, you're either very naive, uneducated or just a plain imbicile.


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## Heinz (Jun 24, 2007)

his user name says it all really.......


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## P1234567890 (Apr 18, 2008)

Regarding kill score inflation, I am willing to concede that COUNTRIES always exaggerated their kill scores (e.g. the Battle of Britain), but does that mean that individual PILOTS did as well?

Didn't the German system of tallying kills require independent corroboration?


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## parsifal (Apr 18, 2008)

I have a question. Who was the second highest scoring "tank Ace"? How do you corroborate ground attack claims. How sure can we be of the alleged 700 kills (or thereabouts) attributed to Rudel. Are there similar records for the Soviets, Brits and Americans? I am having difficulty understanding how the claims can be so precise. Was Rudel used by the Nazis as a propaganda tool? Before you kill me for saying that, its a genuine question


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## Ramirezzz (Apr 19, 2008)

I think the ground attack claims are most unreliable ones , bot on axis and on allied side.
Germans had sometimes an overclaim percentage up to 50%, Russians - even greater.
and the true effectivness of any Ju-87 or Il-2 pilot should be judged only by amount of combat sorties flown.
Soviet Bmr Aces of WW2


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## parsifal (Apr 19, 2008)

I have no experience to rely on in this discussion, but the camera footage I have seen makes me seriously doubt the accuracy of many of the claims. i am trying to approach this question with an open mind, and would appreciate any opinions from people who think they might have a better understanding. Anecdotally, I know that in Normandy, very few actual tanks were destroyed by air attack, but a great number of support vehicles were. I vaguely recall reading somewhere that Lehr lost maybe 1 or 2 tanks to air attack in July, and something like 100 other vehicles. it was the loss of the support vehicles that did the damage. 

Anyway, anyone with better information, please come forward.


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## Ramirezzz (Apr 19, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> Thats not true.... Many ground commanders, tankers, and anti-air personnel were well aware of Germanys Leading Ground Attack pilot.... Genanies Propaganda Machine was very efficient, to say the least....The 100k Rubles was a fact.. I have ssen Russian propoganda posters stating this fact...


oh no, not this reward story again  Could you show these posters on the forum? Never heard about it.
Vegafox is right - nobody in the RKKA knew Rudel, Hartmann or any of the leading aces of Germans. Radio intelligence knew some of their callsigns, but that was about it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 19, 2008)

Then please show your proof that states otherwise.


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## Ramirezzz (Apr 19, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Then please show your proof that states otherwise.



Ok Adler, once again - I'm not the one who must prove anything simply because the other opinion isn't backed enough with the facts. Why?
You said in the other thread there're not only Toliver and Constable or Hartmann himself who stated that his (I mean ,Hartmann's) head was rewarded. But to my knowledge, all others who stated this used Toliver and Constable book as an only source. Just like Rudel stated in his book that there was reward on his head, but he hadn't backed his statement with any facts as well.
1) There wasn't any such order of Stalin or of any soviet commander
2)There is no mention of any kind of reward on any german pilot/tanker etc in any of RKKA veteran's memories
3) There's no known fact of rewarding of any axis person whatsoever.
4) the only reward Russian pilots became was the usual reward for destruction of enemy aircraft (100 rubles if my memory serves me correct)
5)As a Russian who is familiar with a history of the RKKA in the WW2 I just can't imagine something like that could ever happen.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 19, 2008)

Ramirezzz said:


> Ok Adler, once again - I'm not the one who must prove anything simply because the other opinion isn't backed enough with the facts. Why?
> You said in the other thread there're not only Toliver and Constable or Hartmann himself who stated that his (I mean ,Hartmann's) head was rewarded. But to my knowledge, all others who stated this used Toliver and Constable book as an only source. Just like Rudel stated in his book that there was reward on his head, but he hadn't backed his statement with any facts as well.
> 1) There wasn't any such order of Stalin or of any soviet commander
> 2)There is no mention of any kind of reward on any german pilot/tanker etc in any of RKKA veteran's memories
> ...



Well you believe what you wish, once I see something otherwise then I might change my mind.


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## lesofprimus (Apr 20, 2008)

Cant help u out here Ramirez, but I can say that quite possibly these posters were forged or faked, as they looked too new, not beat up like u would expect a 50 year old poster to look like....

I dont kmow which to believe to be honest, but there is more evidence stating that there was infact bounties posted, as opoosed to ur view.... If there was some solid concrete evidence to ur side, then it would be the deal maker....

Im sure that Stalin himself knew who Rudel was, and his exploits on the front.... German Propganda made sure of that...


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## drgondog (Apr 21, 2008)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Who was the pilot, Gottfied Dulias?
> 
> I have met people from Lockheed and from the USAF who knew Hartman and they had the utmost respect for the man and he was far from a fanatical Nazi!
> 
> Flat out, you're either very naive, uneducated or just a plain imbicile.



Joe - I second your assessment. Hartmann and Rall and Priller and Galland commanded the highest respect of the American Fighter Aces. I have never heard anything but utmost respect, particularly for the professionals that formed the cadre of the West German Air force... Galland was excluded because he was a member of the Nazi Party - but so was Rudel.

On your character assessment above I vote for number three


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## drgondog (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm finally off my fat ass with the jim brooks article on the shuttle mission that ambushed the Stuka Gruppe out in front of Rudel's..

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


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## Njaco (Apr 29, 2008)

Does there need to be any question as to how good the Admins and Mods are here? Why I love this site.

Back on track.

I don't know about Rudel's claims or not or about a bounty but here is a question. There seems to be contention that the Soviets or anybody else didn't know about Rudel. Well, if German propaganda was so effective, wouldn't the Allies know about him? And how good he was?


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 29, 2008)

There were a lot of first party witnesses to verify many of Rudel's achievements. I guess his last rear gunner Ernst Gadermann went on to become a famous medical doctor and wrote a lot about Rudel.


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## parsifal (Apr 30, 2008)

Earlier someone said that the Ju87G was less vulnerable than the IL-2. I'm going to be the dummy and say how can you say that? You would need an awful lot of proof like the number of cannon shells needed to shoot each aircraft down. if you try to use any other measure, the results are too easily distorted. Like maybe the german fighters were more efficient, or Russian pilots are hopeless, or something.

I just cannot believe, or accept that the Russians would build 37000 of these f*ckers, because they were easy to shoot down


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## Njaco (Apr 30, 2008)

I don't think numbers produced necessarily reflects how good something is. The Luftwaffe constantly needed better or specialized aircraft and until and if those were made available, they had to make do with what they had on hand. IMHO thats the reason for so many Bf 109s and Ju 87s.

Does anybody know if - when equipped with the Panzerknacker - Stukas need to dive-bomb onto tanks or was there another tactic used?


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## comiso90 (Apr 30, 2008)

parsifal said:


> Earlier someone said that the Ju87G was less vulnerable than the IL-2. I'm going to be the dummy and say how can you say that? You would need an awful lot of proof like the number of cannon shells needed to shoot each aircraft down. if you try to use any other measure, the results are too easily distorted. Like maybe the german fighters were more efficient, or Russian pilots are hopeless, or something.
> 
> I just cannot believe, or accept that the Russians would build 37000 of these f*ckers, because they were easy to shoot down



IMO, If you were an excellent pilot and marksmen, the IL-2 was easy to take down with a few well placed shots to the cooling system. If you were just "Spraying and Praying", a novice pilot or unable to target the desired part of the plane, I think the IL-2 was more difficult to shoot down then the Stuka.

.


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## Udet (May 1, 2008)

parsifal said:


> Earlier someone said that the Ju87G was less vulnerable than the IL-2. I'm going to be the dummy and say how can you say that? You would need an awful lot of proof like the number of cannon shells needed to shoot each aircraft down. if you try to use any other measure, the results are too easily distorted. Like maybe the german fighters were more efficient, or Russian pilots are hopeless, or something.
> 
> I just cannot believe, or accept that the Russians would build 37000 of these f*ckers, because they were easy to shoot down



Parsifal, the IL-2 pretty much followed a pattern similar to most soviet war hardware: let´s produce it in the biggest numbers possible to make up for the huge losses endured in combat operations.

Wise, efficient style of conducting military production affairs one might think; that, however, does not make the IL-2 the alleged superb plane depicted by them Soviets.

Would you agree with the notion USAAF fighter pilots did receive far better training than the Soviet pilots? I mean, the sole question seems silly...

Apart from propaganda outbursts infested with ridiculous claims of "hundreds of German panzers destroyed in a few hours" in battles like Kursk, Soviet data in this regard is rare... so why not to check on USAAF/RAF data that is available with regard to ground attack missions carried out by Tempests, Typhoons and P-47s in Normandy?

Upon examination of abandoned and/or destroyed German panzers and AFVs it was concluded British and American fighter-bomber pilots claimed about ten times as many tanks as they indeed managed to destroy.

Authors such as Niklas Zetterling too had covered this aspect of the war, with nearly identical conclusions: fighter-bomber pilots of RAF and USAAF managed to destroy a ridiculously low number of German panzers, and not just that, their losses during such missions were high due to Flak. In the end, it seemed such missions were a bit more dangerous for the Allied pilots than they apparently were for Panzer crews.

Ten times? With way superior training and equipment...

Also Parsifal don´t you get tired of the typical arguments oftenly launched to downplay the Stuka? What about that one affirming "_without proper fighter cover, it was a sitting duck_" -or something for that matter-; the argument , albeit correct to a high degree, is used in a very selective manner...let´s think of the present-day aerial warfare; if an American pilot flying his A-10, or, say, helicopter in combat finds himself being intercepted by the latest MiG fighter, his situation definitely will get utterly nasty. So, 63 years later, no significant changes have occurred with regard to defencelessness of ground attack planes if caught by enemy fighters.


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## parsifal (May 1, 2008)

I happen to think the Stuka was vulnerable, although not as vulnerable as the popular accounts would have you believe. Why then did the stuka enjoy a low rate of attrition on the eastern front. My opinion is the Soviet tactics and operational policy more than anything. It is a misconception that once the Soviets won the initiative, they tried to maintain constant air superiority over the whole front. Just not true. There were large sections of the front totally devoid of air cover. The Soviets smashed the Germans in their great offensives, by taking their already impressive advantage in armaments, and manpower, and concentrating that advantage on one or more sections of the front. Thus, if the overall advantage in a particular category was say 3:1, for the entire eastern front, this advantage might balloon out to an advantage many times that at the point of breakthrough. It was not unheard of for the Soviets to enjoy advantages of 20:1 or more at those points where they wanted to a chieve a breach in the german defensive line. people seem to view that as somehow unfair, or proof of the inferiority of Soviets capability. I think it was a mark of good Soviet generalship that they could achieve such concentrations of power, and the germans could not

Whilst the Germans held the initiative, it was possible for them to shift their rather meagre air force assets around the front, to deliver critical support at the point of attack. Once the Soviets wrested the initiatiive from them, it became much harder for the Germans to do this. .

Now, because the Soviets esssentially viewed their air assets as a support element of the ground force (even moreso than the germans in fact), and because they could run up and down the front attacking with greatly concentrated forces, it was not all that important to them to shoot down a lot of German aircraft. the primary mission, was to deliver additional firepower to the point of breakthrough, not so much to kill things, but mostly just to keep the defenders heads down, whilst the attacking forces on the ground went to work on them. The Soviets did this with great success after Kursk

I also believe that the Soviets exploited the strengths of their types to the maximum. IL-2s had a weakness on the underside of the fuselage (cant rememeber what, but I think it was something to do with the oil cooler....the more technical people here will no doubt correct me), so their tactics were to use the Sturmoviks at zero altitude, to prevent the German fighters from hitting them in that direction, Of course this had the unfortunate side effect of meaning they were more exposed to LAA fire....meanwhile, Soviet fighters tended to mill around at altitudes below 5000 ft, because they knew this was where they could obtain maximum advantage over the German fighters.

The Germans had no answer to this strategy, which was employed in the air and on the ground. The reason is simple, once they had lost the initiative, they could no longer concentrate their forces to deliver the decisive blows needed.


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## thom regit (May 10, 2009)

I signed up here with the hope that there would be useful information to be gleaned coming from thoughtful people. What a disappointment it has been to read the profane rants of what sound like children on a playground replete with ignorance, threats, bullying, and boasting. I don't wish to tar everyone with the same brush, but some of the "moderators" are the worst offenders here! I'm now over sixty years of age and can probably utter more obscenities than some of you know exist, but I see no point in trying to pass them off as a cogent argument. Even the use of spell check doesn't help out since it fails to weed out homonyms and only serves to highlight the ignorance of basic English; and I'm not referring those whose first language is not English. The fact that we enjoy freedom of speech apparently means to some that it's ok to speak when when they have nothing to say. I would never say that wisdom comes with age but maybe some of the ugly behavior and ignorance just gets wearying. My father, a veteran, and most of his friends and acquaintances were of members of what Tom Brokaw described as the greatest generation; a term that would surely embarrass them. But I feel fortunate to have grown up seeing men who knew how to be men. Sadly, I suppose my generation may be at fault for having failed to pass that on.


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## lesofprimus (May 10, 2009)

I have to agree that this thread did get way outta hand and ruined a very intellectual, informative thread.... I will go back and delete all the crap and posts etc and get this thread back in shape.....

Now get off ur soap box and get me some cookies thom....


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## Vassili Zaitzev (May 10, 2009)

Well, to start, I didn't know about Rudel until I came upon this thread. Must've been on hell of a pilot to get the score he did, and survive the entire war.


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## thom regit (May 10, 2009)

Hey lesofprimus, I hope I didn't go overboard with my rant. It was good of you to give a well reasoned reply and I'd like you to know that that I believe there are some great stories, comments, and insights here. I'd love to contribute on this site myself and not just be a grumpy old man! Now you kids get off my goddamn lawn!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 11, 2009)

I will admit, I was one of the ones that got out hand a bit. I reserve the right to get out of hand with any Neo Nazi prick who wants to deny the holocaust.


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## lesofprimus (May 11, 2009)

All cleaned up and spiffy....

Now wheres my damn cookie???


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## Vassili Zaitzev (May 11, 2009)

Here it is.


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## lesofprimus (May 11, 2009)

Thank u....


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## Vassili Zaitzev (May 11, 2009)

No prob!


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## Jimmyxx3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Excactly, he was a national socialist not a racist, and not to mention, a badass.


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## parsifal (Jun 8, 2011)

I dont think I was being rude in my posts, though the discussion I was following did get off topic. We got into a fairly indepth discussion about the application of air power on the eastern front, and I felt it necessary to point out how the Soviets managed to have a greater impact on the battle, depite inferior equipment and pilots. They were playing a numbers game, but so too were they at the beginning, but unlike the beginning, where the VVS was reduced to impotence, in the second half of the war, they appear to have had a very great impact. The difference IMO was because the Russians learned how to extract the best advantage out of their number advantages, and to extract the best out of the equipment and personnel they possessed. 

In another thread we were able to get rough numbers of Allied, German and Soviet Tank Aces, but we have never been able to get comparative numbers for ground support specialists of non-german airforces. This remains an open invitation....how do the numbers stack up? 
We have never been


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