# Best Nightfighter of WW2 (Continued)



## cheddar cheese (Mar 8, 2005)

The only sense that lanc makes are smelly ones 

(Yes, I know the spelling for that sentence is scents, but you get my drift.)


----------



## DAVIDICUS (Mar 9, 2005)

Heinkel He-219 Uhu


----------



## Erich (Mar 9, 2005)

why the Uhu ?


----------



## DAVIDICUS (Mar 9, 2005)

http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/heinkel_219.htm


----------



## mosquitoman (Mar 9, 2005)

It's the Mossie, that and the Beau defeated the blitz, it was also instrumental in removing the night-time threat to Malta


----------



## Erich (Mar 9, 2005)

sorry DAvidicus but the Smithsonian article is bogus. The last production Heinkel 219 to serve on ops was the 
A-2 variant. The A-5 , A-6 and A-7 never appeared. The operational record of I./NJG 1 flying the beast is at best dismal


----------



## KraziKanuK (Mar 9, 2005)

Erich might shoot me down for this,  but the top speed usually listed (416mph) for the 219 was for an a/c that had been cleaned up > no antenna, no exhaust shrouds, and some other stuff removed which I have forgotten.


----------



## Erich (Mar 9, 2005)

KK no I think the Uhu was a pig and the a/c probably did 375 mph max loaded in the air.


----------



## KraziKanuK (Mar 9, 2005)

Erich said:


> KK no I think the Uhu was a pig and the a/c probably did 375 mph max loaded in the air.



Erich, I agree. I think you read my post wrong. The number given for top speed is bogus as the a/c would not be of much operational without any radar antenna, yes? Unshrouded exhausts would be like a shooting star in a night sky, yes?


----------



## Erich (Mar 9, 2005)

not necessarily. I just think the top speed of 416 is a bit much with all the radar aerials and given the fact the Uhu was a pretty good sized twin engine for the Germans. the Ju 88G-6 could even top out at 400 mph if pushed....


----------



## cheddar cheese (Mar 9, 2005)

Best NF I say P-61


----------



## Erich (Mar 9, 2005)

in the Pacific only...........


----------



## KraziKanuK (Mar 9, 2005)

Erich said:


> not necessarily. I just think the top speed of 416 is a bit much with all the radar aerials and given the fact the Uhu was a pretty good sized twin engine for the Germans. the Ju 88G-6 could even top out at 400 mph if pushed....



Erich the nose was clean. Only the stubs were in place. The Mossie gained several mph when its exhaust shrouds were removed.


----------



## DAVIDICUS (Mar 9, 2005)

I confess that I am unaware of the evidence disparaging the He-219.

What sources indicate that the He-219 was anything but a superb night fighter?

I think that the P-61C would have been a truly great night fighter but it never saw combat. I understand that the A and B versions were somewhat slow (370 mph).


----------



## delcyros (Mar 10, 2005)

I agree, both, P-61C and He-219 were great nightfighters technically. But they also had little impact compared to the Mossie, the Me-110G and the Ju-88G. That is an important point, I belive. Even if they lack some speed and technical advantages, they managed to do the work over years pretty well. And the future belonged to jet driven nightfighters, anyway. I would vote for the Mossie, it proved to be reliable, it had excellent nightfighting capabilities, it was deployed in numbers and it stayed in front line use till the very end of ww2. I


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 10, 2005)

and beyond.............


----------



## cheddar cheese (Mar 10, 2005)

Yes, but where are they all now! 

Ill tell you where, theyre part of the wood chipping we use on our flowerbeds.


----------



## Erich (Mar 10, 2005)

David what is your source(s) that say the He 219 was a good nf ? only 12 Mossie kills does not say much. the engines were not in good shape and failed many times on combat ops. Did not have the range for ops that everyone envisioned at first. The armament though powerful was too much and many A-0's and A-2's had two of the ventral cannon removed. The ejection seats did not always work properly and actually ejected both crewmen through the canopy several times killing them. No rarward radar on 9/1-th sof the A-0's and A-2's used on operations and the bird was easy prey for the Mossie Night fighter. The a/c was also prone to broken backs while on landing, rason for NJGr 10 and their tests to leave the two birds broken on the decaying tarmac while they used Ju 88G-6's in 1944-45.

My sources are documentation from I./NJG 1, 3./NJGr 10, NJG 5, Nachtjagdstaffel Norwegen.

Although in the testing stages, the A-5 and A-7 did not appear to the front line unit I./NJG 1 as thought. The anti-Mossie A-6 stripped of all armor never got off the ground and was neither used on operations, in fact it never got to the service unit destined for the a/c.

The P-51A nd B were too heavy for the ETO and although kills were made esepcially by the US 422nd nfs many German bombers and Night fighters elluded the Black Widow. Tthree Widows were shot down by return fire from a He 177 and JU 87D-5's on three different missions....

E


----------



## DAVIDICUS (Mar 10, 2005)

Erich:

Type in "He-219" into your search engine and you will retrieve a wealth of web sites with information singing the praises of the He-219 as a night fighter. I have not seen any disparaging information with the exception of what knowledgeable people (like yourself) are saying. 

I will defer to your assertions here as I am not very knowledgeable concerning the He-219 or really any of the night fighters for that matter.

On another note, I believe you meant P-61 as opposed to P-51.


----------



## Erich (Mar 10, 2005)

I'll punch in He 219 and I am sure it is old news. yes correct P-61 not P-51. my poor hands.............


----------



## Erich (Mar 10, 2005)

good grief I just did a quick search on over 30 sites. There wer no A-5's or A-7's. NJG 3 were to recevie A-5's and they were given to the unit and left there on the tarmac, and the NJG did not use them preferring the Ju 88G-6. Again only I./NJG 1 operated the Uhu, and the word potential used on several sites is appra-po. It is a huge what if if the a/c was upstaged with more depenedable engines. I have the losses for I./NJG 1 and no others besides the A-0 and A-2 exist on the documents. AGain applicable to the net old research from back in the 19060's and 1970's using William Greens book as the standard reference. The Smithosonian bird which has had it's fusleage painted in the underside black Schlacht scheme is an A-2 bird with two 2cm's in the wing roots, two 2cm's in the ventral tray and two 3cm's in the Schragwaffen installation.

Erich ~


----------



## DAVIDICUS (Mar 10, 2005)

The following is basically par for the course regarding most of the information out there that I have seen.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Runway/2337/He-219.htm


----------



## KraziKanuK (Mar 10, 2005)

Erich, even the site in the previous post quotes the top speed of 416mph for the _castrated_ 219.


----------



## Erich (Mar 10, 2005)

David it was not the king of the night and as I said all the prodution figures for the A-5 upward were just plans that never took off on operations or ground depending how you look at it. Only in the last 10 years was I aware of this as I had studied or so I thought every conceiveable piece of evidence and book publicized until I received official German documentation from Germany on the a/c and the unit it was involved with

E


----------



## DAVIDICUS (Mar 10, 2005)

I understand. I just gave an example of what the information prevalent on the web says.


----------



## MP-Willow (Mar 11, 2005)

AS for the thoughts that the Me 110G and Ju-88 and Mossie were good for the night, whey were but they started from proven irframes.

The He-219 and P-61 were from the start to be night fighters. The P-61C would have and did correct a lot of the problums and if jets had not upstaged props it was ready and able to cleanse the night. 

Eric, was the He-219A-5 used in combat at all? Or as you have posted just delivered but left sitting?


----------



## KraziKanuK (Mar 11, 2005)

MP-Willow said:


> AS for the thoughts that the Me 110G and Ju-88 and Mossie were good for the night, whey were but they started from proven irframes.



I think you are saying the Mossie was a proven airframe.

The first NF was W4052. The prototype Mossie was W4050. 

http://www.dehavilland.ukf.net/_DH98 prodn list.txt


----------



## mosquitoman (Mar 11, 2005)

The first NF variant was the mkII, the mkI was only used for recce


----------



## Erich (Mar 11, 2005)

I do not see any references to losses and even the I./NJG 1 Uhu's lost in March 45 were A-2's


----------



## MP-Willow (Mar 14, 2005)

Thanks all 

Yes the Mossie had more time in battle to evolve. The P-61 I think could have been that good, and did show a lot of promise in the Pacific.


----------



## Gemhorse (Mar 14, 2005)

The DH Mosquito was irrevocably the ''Best Nightfighter of WWII''....
-This is a documented fact, and it was a part of the unique configurations this aircraft was developed to undertake, very early in it's career...and one it carried-out from it's inception as a Nightfighter, throughout the War and beyond into the fifty's when replaced by jets...

It's role as a Nightfighter and it's service was unsurpassed by any other aircraft and a contributing aspect to it's legendary status....

Germany tried unsuccessfully to copy it in the form of the Fw-154, and the He-219 was another attempt and although it's initial success was a half-dozen Mossies and some bombers, we may find that they were Mosquito Bomber or Pathfinder variants...

If those who believe the He-219 was the better aircraft and want to read up on it, you'll find that Capt. Eric Brown CBE,DSC,AFC,RN; wrote most illuminatingly of it's real performance after extensively testing it [and other German aircraft], in his book 'Aircraft of the Luftwaffe', and it's also reprinted in Air International July 1975 ' Viewed from the Cockpit'.....

While I feel the He-219 was a great looking aircraft with some special features, it was underpowered, [Brown only coaxing a max speed of 378mph out of it], not receiving the correct engines due to shortages, it was supposed to be fitted with DB-603G's but got mostly DB-603A's, a difference of 150hp, but it was also a very heavy fighter in comparison to the Mossie....Although well armed, it was not as manoevrable, had a lousy climb-rate and like many German aircraft it was too little, too late, a common feature of RLM's role of aircraft selection processes....this aircraft was on the drawing-board in 1940, and they dragged their heels on it for a good part of the War......

Northrop's P-61 was the only aircraft of this era specifically built as a Nightfighter, and it too suffered similar faults, being too heavy and not as manoevrable, although it performed good service in the Pacific towards the end of that conflict....Perhaps the P-38 NF variant's service was probably more successful there, but I don't have any figures to support this......

Personally, I feel the Ju-88 was the closest contempary to the Mosquito, and both the Bf-110 and Do-217 also did good service to Germany in this role also, but all said and done, the superlative Mosquito was and still is heralded as the ''Best Nightfighter of WWII''..............


----------



## mosquitoman (Mar 14, 2005)

Finally, someone who appreciates the Mosquito as much as I do. Thankyou Gemhorse for talking about the best of the best


----------



## Gemhorse (Mar 14, 2005)

Oh, my pleasure MM, we're 'brother's in arms' when it comes to the DH Mosquito, not enough folk out there can comprehend the real marvel this wooden aircraft was during WWII.....
Cheers...


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 15, 2005)

hey i'm with the mossie too you know!!

although i don't know enough to make arguments like you do.........


----------



## mosquitoman (Mar 15, 2005)

The MkXXX was the latest nightfighter version and was easily the best nightfighter although the Beau gives it a close run


----------



## Erich (Mar 15, 2005)

The Mossie XXX was the best the RAF had to offer. The Me 262A-1a was the best German Nachtjäger, although my love for the Ju 88G-6 is strong it did not compare to the Mossie XXX. The Ju was just an old airframe and was counted on even with the latest electronics to do to much. Besides trying to take on RAF Mossies and 4-engine jobs it was the stable mount for many an evil night and day ground attack mission(s)...

E ~


----------



## MP-Willow (Mar 15, 2005)

Gemhorse, thanks for the good arguments. I am still baffled that the USAAC dragged its feet with night fighters. The P-38M was the NF and it did do a good job. Not that the P-38 did a bad job at what ever it did.

A questio for all you Mossie lovers, are any still around airworthy?


----------



## evangilder (Mar 15, 2005)

I got sent a flying Mossie video a while back in e-mail. I don't know where the video came from though, or how long ago it was filmed, but it appeared to be in the last 5-10 years.


----------



## Adolf Galland (Mar 15, 2005)

ur all wrong the p-61 is the best night fighter,it perform just like the mossie but it had a heavier armarment


----------



## Erich (Mar 15, 2005)

the P-61 was a dog...............sorry Addi or whatever your real name is

The P-38 did frankly nothing in the pacific as we have already chatted about the M that never flew as a nf in the orient till after the war. I already gave the information on the P-38, please check the old threads

Erich


----------



## KraziKanuK (Mar 15, 2005)

I don't know why no one has mentioned how cramped the ROs station in the P-38 was. Even if you were a runt you still emerged as a hunch-back after a mission.


----------



## mosquitoman (Mar 15, 2005)

There was a Mossie flying a while ago but it crashed and I think there are 1 or 2 projects to get one flying again. The prototype W4050 is at the deHavilland Museum- one place I NEED to go to


----------



## Grampa (Mar 16, 2005)

What about the Arado ar 234 C-3N Blitz then?


----------



## mosquitoman (Mar 16, 2005)

What's the armament on it then?


----------



## GT (Mar 16, 2005)

Update.


----------



## Erich (Mar 16, 2005)

nonsense. The He 219 was not one of the finest German nf's period...........we have discussed this at length previously.

The Ar 234C never flew in action. Streibs 6 kills are suspect.


----------



## GT (Mar 16, 2005)

Update.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 16, 2005)

and wasn't it that the P-38M never actually shot a plane down at night during the war??


----------



## KraziKanuK (Mar 16, 2005)

GT said:


> The He 219 Uhu intended as a multi-purpose a/c for daytime ops but became one of the finest night fighting a/c in WW II.
> 
> On 1-12 June 1943 on He 219 Uhu first op mission Maj. Streib succeeded to destroying 5 Lancaster's. During the following 10 days the He 219A-0s accounted for a further 20 RAF bombers including 6 Mosquito's



GT, I am not holding it against you, but you do need to find better reference sources.

You should look at the claims list for that night. Streib only got 1 Lancaster.

01:05 - Halifax
01:20 - Halifax
01:55 - Halifax
02:16 - Lancaster
02:22 - Halifax

http://jg26.vze.com/ > 
Tony Wood's site at the bottom of the page.
Reich Western Front 1943. Vol IV

I'll let you look for the Mossie claims for the next 10 days.


----------



## Erich (Mar 16, 2005)

Streib, Modrow and the others did not care for the Bf 110G-4 and wanted another alternative. the He 219 was the alternative for the moment. the craft was heavy, too big and as I have mentioned had inferior engines, weak wing spars, armament was too heavy and reduced to fit. Ejection seats did not work much of the time and killed several crews, most of the Uhu's did not have rear warning radar making them prey for the MOssie nf's.

the prime case in point is the other NJG's not caring for the existing Uhu such as NJG 5, Nachtjagstaffel Norwegen, 3./NJGr 10, and the main focus to NJG 3 to change over and they were equipped with the latest A version and refused to fly it as they had the Ju 88G-6 which was superior to the He 219. Thats the fact friend. Too much written crap on the net and in old books. You will see some enlightening materials on the Uhu in our book covering it's ops agasint Mossie bombers. One thing for such a hot bird the craft in NJg 1's possession only scored 12 victories against the Mossie, and I./NJG 1's record with the heavy Uhu was lacking in comparison with other Bf 110G-4 gruppen of NJG 1 when it came to scoring RAF bombers.

Lanc remember my post on the P-38M and it's non operations in the war ?


----------



## Erich (Mar 16, 2005)

Lastly accordong to the official Nachtjägd claims listing and this from Freiburg under Bestätigte Nachtjagdabschüsse Chef für Auszeichnung und Disziplin which Tony did not use, I./NJG 1 with the Uhu was given credit for only 8 RAF bombers in the time you depict GT. Have no fear I have the old referecnes on the Uhu as well giving such high scores and praise. The stuff is still used today from the late 1960-1980's period and is accepted fact as much written in books has been copied to the net.....


----------



## cheddar cheese (Mar 16, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> and wasn't it that the P-38M never actually shot a plane down at night during the war??



Maybe not, but several people scored kills at night in regular P-38's...


----------



## Erich (Mar 16, 2005)

doesn't matter the P-38 was a stop gap to the P-61 and the Lightning cannot even be considered a nf. the Bf 109G and Fw 190A were much more successful and they both are usually not considered in the night fighter realm


----------



## delcyros (Mar 16, 2005)

Just a question: Do we credtit the "best NF" technically or historically?
I would choose: 
(historically) Mossie
(technically) Me-262 B1a/U


----------



## Erich (Mar 16, 2005)

technically the Me 262 two seater was a flop. 1 kill only

the newer B-2 which did not enter production will be covered in immense detail in our book..........


----------



## Gemhorse (Mar 16, 2005)

Erich's absolutely correct....
As far as I'm concerned, all I've read indicates that the Ju-88G's were the next best thing to the superlative Mosquito as ''Best Nightfighter''...

In fact, running a close third, in my opinion, was the hard work done by the Do-217J N series, notably the ultimate model, Do-217N-2/R22......

What actually happened was when RAF Bomber Command launched 'Operation Gomorrah' on the evening 24 July 1943, the first major phase of Hamburg's demise, [it had already sustained 98 previous smaller attacks], and it was also when the British first dropped 'Window' [tin-foil strips used to disrupt German radar]... - In one stroke, the German 'Himmelbett' radar system, which was the basis of the AA/ Searchlight/ Nightfighter belt or barrier, known as the ''Kammhuber Line'', was thrown into total disarray, the Ground-controllers couldn't pass-on instructions to the beacon-orbiting Nightfighters to home them onto the 800-odd invading British bombers...- This made the 'Kammhuber Line' no longer a viable concept, and in it's place a defensive measure known as 'Wild Sau' [Wild Boar] was adopted using single-seat day fighters, using 'Mk.1 eyeballs'...all the light from searchlights, fires etc. helped them too...All this brought the greatest number of fighter opposition to bear, but one penalty emerged...a lack of airborne endurance, which rendered the fighters's advantage and flexibilty bluntened...

It was back in late May 1942 after the '1,000 Bomber Raid' on Cologne, that the Do-217 started to come into it's own as a Nightfighter, using some of it's bomb bay as fuel tanks....All this time, Ju-88's were in great demand for other tasks mostly, and they didn't come into this proper until later...
Originally, Bf-110's were evolved and used, as 1 Gruppe NJG1 was first formed back on 20 July 1940, but experience from offensive ops against British airfields using Do-17Z-3's and some Ju-88C-2's of 1/NJG 2, the Dornier's were progressively developed from Do-17Z's to Do-215's to Do-217's....They were well-armed and able to keep up with the bombers, and by August 1943, were getting phased-out by more Ju-88's coming on stream....the Dorniers filled the gap really well considering they were a modified 30,000lb bomber, max speed around 300 mph and carrying 4x 20mm MG 151's and 4x 7.9mm MG 17 forward-firing guns, and 4x 20mm MG 151 in ''schrage Musik'', quite deadly in fact..... 

To answer Willow's question, the last flying Mosquito was a T III [RR299] which crashed in the UK in 1996, killing both it's crew....There are about 31 survivors worldwide, in various restorative states, but we have a chap down here in NZ who is building brand new fuselages and wings, working with a Canadian Group in restoration of Mosquitos, this chap is determined his remnant Mossie is going to be a flying one, and all us ardent Mossie fans are confident they will be flying again soon too....- I belong to a group here that are restoring the remains of two Mosquitos into one static display...I'll have photos, by and by........

I too have often wondered about the Arado Ar-234 'Blitz', an aircraft I've always liked and felt wasn't used to it's best potential, although time was running-out anyway....As a NF, it may have been a real handful, but Hitler was besotted with it being a bomber/recce model...I felt it may have been a better gun-platform than the Bf-262.....


----------



## delcyros (Mar 19, 2005)

I´m looking forward to read this book, Erich! My statement underlines the idea that the future of NF belongs to jet driven planes. with this in mind, I stay for the Me-262 B1a/U. I thought that it should have more than one kill, but I might be wrong (Didn´t K.Welter claimed some 29 NF kills in Me-262? I did noticed that 29 is very suspect, but one, only? Intersting.). Historically the Mossie was exceptional, in every aspect.


----------



## Erich (Mar 19, 2005)

I've got only 3 minutes and then out the door.

Kurt Welters jet claims are all suspect. He flew only the single seater as nearly all his pilots. Even though some 7 two seaters came into the unit the unit accepted radar operators quite late into the Kommando now a staffel and the single seater continued to chalk up Mossies. Only 1 kill is confirmed and reported for the unit and it is Red 12 by Herbert Altner in the two seater model. With the radar and the drop tanks the two seater was at least 50mph slower than the single seater mount.

Yes jet nf's were going to be the future had the war gone another year plus 

E


----------



## delcyros (Mar 20, 2005)

You are completely right, Erich. I took on reading some book that confirms it.


----------



## hellmaker (Mar 21, 2005)

How about the Hurricane MKIIC Night Fighters... my guess is they were very successfull... It was one of the most efficient plane of ww2, being also a fighter-bomber it was preaty fast, had a preaty goo service ceiling, and it was heavely armed... My guess is that it did a good job...


----------



## mosquitoman (Mar 21, 2005)

No radar though, they were sent out and told to shoot down any aircraft with more than one engine


----------



## hellmaker (Mar 21, 2005)

Indeed this I did not know...this is a big downfall...during night time hunting even with a radar is difficult. Friendly airplanes could be considered foe...Tricky....


----------



## mosquitoman (Mar 21, 2005)

That's why they were told only to go after aircraft with one engine. I think one Hurricane pilot got about 5 nighttime kills but I can't remember his name


----------



## MP-Willow (Mar 21, 2005)

ERich, thanks for keeping our information and talk correct. This is also for corecting me. I would like to know more about your book if it is in print now or when it will be out?


----------



## Erich (Mar 21, 2005)

which one ?  

Moskito-jagd über Deutschland is huge almost 800 pages now. so it could be in two volumes.

Another book on the Ju 88G-6 a/c and crews is still in the works and I am working with an artist right now for the profiles, and trying to figure what a/c fotos I will use plus the text. It will be small, well maybe......

E


----------



## MP-Willow (Mar 21, 2005)

Thanks Erich  If it is that big then I will have to save up my pennies for a while.


----------



## delcyros (Mar 21, 2005)

..me too..


----------



## Erich (Mar 21, 2005)

the other work is roughly translated "Angesichtes des Silbrigen Mondes"

In the Light of the Silvery Moon

this will cover the Ju 88G-6 and crews, etc..........some sehr Kühl materials I have collected the past 15 years plus.

will let everyone know about the two volume monster though when we are ready. Eagle editons has already offered to do this for us and I know Jerry's sense of quality to detail first hand, so we will see

thanks for the interest friends !! 8) 

E ♪


----------



## Gemhorse (Mar 21, 2005)

I'm very much looking forward to reading your books too, Erich...your area of expertise is of great interest to me, I can't seem to find enough about this era, particuarly from the German viewpoint...

It's many years since I read Gunther Bloemertz's ''Heaven Next Stop''...but I'm curious to know if you've read it, and what you thought of it ?...
It made quite an impression on me at the time, the effect that impending defeat had on the Luftwaffe pilots was most pronounced, quite a different read to most other books on the Air War of WWII.....

Gemhorse


----------



## Mosin (Mar 26, 2005)

My pick for the best night fighter is the 
DH-98 MOSQUITO as best fighter overall. The best fighters for each nation is as listed 
GERMANY-----MESSERSCHMITT 110 
BRITAIN-------DH-98 MOSQUITO
USA----------P-61 BLACK WIDOW
JAPAN---------J1N GEKKO
USSR----------PE-2 
I think the one with the best armament is the messerschmitt 410
the one with the best armor was the P-61.


----------



## Erich (Mar 26, 2005)

the Me 410 was never a night fighter. the intrtuders of KG 51 and 54 only had 2 to 4 2cm forward firing cannon. Ju 88G-6 clearly superior to the Me 410


----------



## Gnomey (Mar 26, 2005)

My best nightfighter is either the Heinkel He-219 'Uhu' or the Mosquito


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 26, 2005)

mossie.........


----------



## mosquitoman (Mar 27, 2005)

Mossie (surprise surprise)


----------



## BountyHunter15 (Mar 27, 2005)

In think the P-61 Blackwidow is the best.


----------



## BountyHunter15 (Mar 27, 2005)

Hey Mosin do you know alot about airplanes?


----------



## BountyHunter15 (Mar 27, 2005)

rer rew


----------



## BountyHunter15 (Mar 27, 2005)

werw rtew


----------



## Gemhorse (Mar 27, 2005)

It's hard, but he must be trying to say ''Mosquito''........


----------



## Nonskimmer (Mar 27, 2005)

Some obscure southern dialect, no doubt.


----------



## Erich (Mar 27, 2005)

I think I get it...........P-61 is a dog and the Ju 88G-6 rules the skies !


----------



## Gemhorse (Mar 27, 2005)

In reading about the Pacific conflict, it appears the US Navy first used a TBF Avenger, equipped with radar and in concert with a pair of F6F Hellcats, as a Nightfighter team in late 1943...unfortunately, although they clobbered a G4M 'Betty' during their first sortie, the rear gunner of the Avenger gave what he thought was another 'Betty' a squirt, and shot-down the US Navy's first fighter ace and holder of the Medal of Honour, Commander Butch O'Hare.....
Early in 1944, during 'Operation Flintlock', the Navy also used their first F4U-2 Corsair and F6F-3N Hellcat radar Nightfighters, so this seems to be when the US first really got into nightfighting......


----------



## Erich (Mar 27, 2005)

Gem actually in 1943 in the Med the 12th AF nf units used borrowed Beus to hunt down what little German intruder-bomber traffic they could find. They were not very successful

E ~


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 28, 2005)

Erich said:


> I think I get it...........P-61 is a dog and the Ju 88G-6 rules the skies !



Hmm..

P-61B is 6 mph faster and has a 1600 foot higher service ceiling.

The P-61B's four forward firing Hispano's were equal to the Ju88G-6's four forward firing MG151/20's, having perhaps a little less HE kick but a lot more kinetic energy and twice the effective range.

The P-61B's four turret mounted .50's, which could fire across the entire upper hemisphere, were clearly superior to the two 60 degree upward firing 20mm's of the Ju88.






The P-61B had superior radar (much longer effective range), and the pilot had night-vision binoculars tied in with the gunsight - a huge advantage.






Just because the RAF never gave the P-61 a chance, prefering their own Mossie's for nightfigters, does not make the P-61 a dog. They never gave it a chance.

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 28, 2005)

but at the same time we're not stupid, if we didn't want the P-61 it was for a very good reason.................


----------



## Nonskimmer (Mar 28, 2005)

The British are many things. Stupid is *not* one of them.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 28, 2005)

are we to assume you're trying to include Canadains in there non??


----------



## Nonskimmer (Mar 28, 2005)

It's a good idea, but we're not British.
And I'll rip the head off of anyone who claims otherwise! 

Sorry. A bit of my great-uncle coming out there.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 28, 2005)

Glad to hear it........


----------



## Nonskimmer (Mar 28, 2005)

God Save the Queen.


----------



## Concorde247 (Mar 28, 2005)

Remember-Nightfighting isnt just down to the aircraft, its also down to the skills (or luck)of the pilot using it and their preference..

For example - Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer - Germany's TOP-scoring nightfighter ace of WW2 with 121 victories.

The Aircraft he used was the Bf 110G-4 his last one was coded 3C+BA Wnr: 180560.

He preferred the Bf110 over all the different versions of Ju88 He219 - even though their performance was better in a lot of cases.

(info taken from Autobiography "Schnauffer -Ace of diamonds" by Peter hinchliffe


----------



## Erich (Mar 28, 2005)

Greetings, yes it is a new day. Hopeful everyone had a blessed Easter.

RG:

The upper turret of the P-61 was used in the PTO only and was not used in the same manner as the fixed 60-80 degree Schrägwaffen installation.

9 out of 10 times the infa red binocs were not used in the ETO theater. Several reasons. The pilots were not indoctirined with the proper useage. the Binocs did not work and because of the first point the pilot would close to close to the German a/c for proper id and would have to swing out so he would not ramm the rear of the enemy a/c.
alos for the ETO and accoridng to the 422nd and 425th nfs icrofische the US AI was a faulty instrument on many occassions and noted in the diaries of the two US units "bent weapon" occured or just plain electrical failure where the crew would have to return to base.

For Schnaufer, he was totally unfamiliar with the He 219 and could not make a proper judgement call. His success to the Bf 110G-4 was not undlyuly alone in IV./NJG 1 as it was the most successful gruppe in NJG 1 and the most in all the Nachtjagd's. the Bf 110G-4 was fitting for it's time till late 1944, and nearly half of the exisitng Nachtjagd gruppen tired it's best to change over to the superior Ju 88G-6 but stalwarts in NJG 1 refused except to experiment with the larger Ju 88. Again it was only I./NJG 1 that used the He 219 and even then not all crews from the gruppe were happy with their mount.


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 28, 2005)

Erich said:


> Greetings, yes it is a new day. Hopeful everyone had a blessed Easter.
> 
> RG:
> 
> ...



The topic does not specify "Best Nightfighter of the ETO".

The P-61B's were not deployed to Europe. The British had made their preference for the Mossie well known, and the USA had no real need for night fighters in that theater.

The night vision binocs allowed identification at a distance, they included variable maginfication up to 5.8x. The P-61A crews in the ETO were never trained to use them, so they were not effective in that theater. But there is no reason to believe that properly trained pilots would have had a problem identifying German aircraft from 2000 feet or more.

Of course the upper turret was not used in the same way as the Schrägwaffen installation - it was a turret not a fixed installation. But it certainly was superior for underneath attacks.

I agree, the APG-1 gun-laying radar system didn't work very well. But this only prevented the P-61 from being totally devastating as a night fighter. Had the kinks been worked out of this system, enemy nightfighters would not have stood a chance against the P-61.

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 28, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> but at the same time we're not stupid, if we didn't want the P-61 it was for a very good reason.................



The British military suffered from "_not invented here_" syndrome as badly or worse than any other military in the world. They were satisfied with the Mossie, so that was that.

Look at what they did the the P-38. First they insist the planes they evaluate be equiped with two engines that both rotate the same direction, then they dismiss it as having poor handling characteristics - DUH!

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 28, 2005)

dude we tested the P-38E i believe, and that sucked anyway!!!


----------



## Erich (Mar 28, 2005)

C'mon RG I have stated many times I was a former member of the US night figher's association before it was broken up. I know some of the ETO vets of the 422nd and 425th nfs personally and have interviewed them at length my files on the ETO alone are some 4 inches thick. Will point out simply the ETO crews were trained in the useage of night binocs and yes the B's were used. have also in the past gave nightly reports with insertion of P-61 a/c numerations and the variant. Plain and simple there were not enough P-61's to go around, the P-61 was exhausted until service crews had to look for other means to replace needed parts struck by action/weather, crashes, etc....


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 28, 2005)

Erich said:


> C'mon RG I have stated many times I was a former member of the US night figher's association before it was broken up. I know some of the ETO vets of the 422nd and 425th nfs personally and have interviewed them at length my files on the ETO alone are some 4 inches thick. Will point out simply the ETO crews were trained in the useage of night binocs and yes the B's were used. have also in the past gave nightly reports with insertion of P-61 a/c numerations and the variant. Plain and simple there were not enough P-61's to go around, the P-61 was exhausted until service crews had to look for other means to replace needed parts struck by action/weather, crashes, etc....



The great majority of P-61's went to the PTO. Those that served in the ETO did very little "night fighter" duty, first they did V1 interception duty and then they mostly did night interdition missions. Very few P-61's were delivered to the ETO after Spring 1944, except as replacements. Most (if not all) of the B's went to the PTO. The A's were retrofitted with the night vision binoc's, but they were not refitted with the improved SCR-720C A/I radar which would have required structural modifications.

All the info I can find on the subject indicates that both the 422nd and 425th NFG's were equiped with P-61A's in May 1944. I've been unable to locate a photo of a single P-61B in the ETO, or any source that specifically says they were deployed there.

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## Erich (Mar 28, 2005)

RG I knew the 425th nfs commander Leon "Gilly" Lewis and have his full on interview, this was done some 8 years ago. B's were given to the unit as well as nigh binocs which hardly a crew used in action. there are pics of the 414th nfs with B's on the net. the unit alhtough flew most ops seperately had a short term with the 422nd. B's were full on inaction during the greatest time of night fighting and scoring for the ETO P-61 units during the Ardenne battles.

Local friend and pilot with 2 kills from the 425th nfs , Jack Slayton had 106 missions. 8/10ths of these were on night fighter-intruder patrols.

E I have more if your interested....


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 29, 2005)

Erich said:


> RG I knew the 425th nfs commander Leon "Gilly" Lewis and have his full on interview, this was done some 8 years ago. B's were given to the unit as well as nigh binocs which hardly a crew used in action. there are pics of the 414th nfs with B's on the net. the unit alhtough flew most ops seperately had a short term with the 422nd. B's were full on inaction during the greatest time of night fighting and scoring for the ETO P-61 units during the Ardenne battles.
> 
> Local friend and pilot with 2 kills from the 425th nfs , Jack Slayton had 106 missions. 8/10ths of these were on night fighter-intruder patrols.
> 
> E I have more if your interested....



Well, lets look at it,

425th P-61's: (http://www.geocities.com/mep1100/425NFS.html)


```
Name        Serial No.            Type 
Unknown                               44-5537              P-61 A-5 
Unknown                               44-5539              P-61 A-5 
Unknown                               44-5542              P-61 A-5 
Unknown                               44-5545              P-61 A-5 
Unknown                               44-5546              P-61 A-5 
Unknown                               44-5549              P-61 A-5 
Junkin' Judy                          44-5550              P-61 A-5 
Unknown                               44-5560              P-61 A-5 
Unknown                               44-5565              P-61 A-5 
Double Trouble                        44-5566              P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               44-5568              P-61 A-10 
Tabitha                               44-5569              P-61 A-10 
Daisy Mae                             44-5570              P-61 A-10 
Mah Ideel                             44-5571              P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               44-5574              P-61 A-10 
Sleepy Time Gal                       44-5576              P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               44-5578              P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               44-5579              P-61 A-10 
Wabash Cannonball IV                  44-5580              P-61 A-10 
Little Nan                            44-5581              P-61 A-10 
Two O'Clock Jump                      44-5582              P-61 A-10 
Dangerous Dan                         44-5583              P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               44-5584              P-61 A-10 
Plenty Peed-Off Patootie III          44-5585              P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               44-5587(?)           XP-61D 
Unknown                               44-5588              P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               44-5589              P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               42-39395             P-61 A-10 
Unknown                               42-39397             P-61 A-10 
Norma Dea                             Unknown              P-61 ? 
IITYWYBdd                             Unknown              P-61 ? 
Fearless Fosdic                       Unknown              P-61 ? 
Little Audrey                         Unknown              P-61 ?   (P-61A)
Midnight Menace                       Unknown              P-61 ?  (P-61A)
The Creep                             Unknown              P-61 ?
```

Of 35 P-61's assigned to the 425th, one is an XP-61D (service test?), 28 were definitely P-61A variants, and 6 are listed as unknown. Of those six, from photos it is clear that the Little Audrey and Midnight Menace were both P-61A's. This leaves just 4 potential P-61B's in the squardon. Thus far I have seen no evidence, or photo evidence of any P-61B's being used in Europe, but if you have some, I'm open to any new information.

As I said before, the P-61A's were retrofitted with night vision binoculars. However, they were not retrofitted with the improved radar system or turret of the P-61B. All P-61A's either had the turret removed or locked to fire forward under pilot control. I suspect P-61B's were not deployed to Europe because the P-61A's were sufficient for night interdiction missions, and the logistics issues were not worth the effort of supporting both types in that theater.

The 414th NFG served in the central Pacific, they arrived on Iwo Jima on July 7th, 1945. So they most likely did fly P-61B's, and I never said they didn't serve in the PTO. Unless you can find photo's or other evidence that show they had P-61B's in the ETO, the existance of photo's of 414 NFG P-61B's does not "prove" anything.

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Mar 29, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> dude we tested the P-38E i believe, and that sucked anyway!!!





You tested the "Castrated Lightning..."


No turbo-chargers = bad Allisons.


----------



## KraziKanuK (Mar 29, 2005)

P-61B-15 42-39606 'Li'l Abner' 415th NFS St Dizier France Mar 45
P-61B-15 42-39672 'Little Audrey' 422nd NFS Etain France late 44

Erich said the 414th NF *S* not the 414th NF *G*


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 29, 2005)

No turbochargers, and the props both turned the same direction - the British didn't want to maintain two parts sets.

Otherwise, the P-38D and E were quite good for their time.

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 29, 2005)

KraziKanuK said:


> P-61B-15 42-39606 'Li'l Abner' 415th NFS St Dizier France Mar 45
> P-61B-15 42-39672 'Little Audrey' 422nd NFS Etain France late 44
> 
> Erich said the 414th NF *S* not the 414th NF *G*



If that is _Little Audrey's_ serial, they she would have been a B. That would be ONE in the group. However, this does not fit with unit diaries, which indicate only the older version SCR-720 radar was available for night interdiction missions as late as March 1945.

_Midnight Menace_ is clearly an A model.







My original point remains howerver, which is that the P-61(B) was a very capable night fighter. Certainly as capable as the Ju88G-6. It had superior armament, armor, handling, and radar to the Ju88, and equal speed.

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## Erich (Mar 29, 2005)

a couple of things if I may. go back to the link you provided for the listing of most of the 425th's P-61's. there were others. now type in the 414 and then 422 and see what you come up with.........surprise, B's

the last pic you posted has the extended radom of the B series. Again I am not really fond of continuing threads with you under the assumption you have provided net resources without personal vet interviews that I have done over a great many years nor documentation such as founding books that have been around for sometime stating B versions wre used in 44-45 in the ETO with the 3 squadrons later Med units that switched over from the Mossie to the P-61B. I can share that the vets memories have laxed some the last 60 years but in this case knowing and interviewing pilots and especially the CO of the 425th nfs that there wereno B varinat in the 425th rises up a red flag in my thinking. Are you saying that "Gilly" then is full of crock ? 

if I am way too serious someone stop me ...........


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 29, 2005)

no you tell 'im erich........


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 29, 2005)

No Erich,

Older vets are often incorrect about the details, it is not a matter of them lying, just that they confuse dates frequently.

Anyway, I'll look up some other units soon. But it appears that many of these units, or the pilots within them, were transfered to the PTO immeadiatly after the War in Europe was finished.

Perhaps they did have some B's in the ETO, but it appears if they did it was not until 1945, and that these were not used as night fighters but as night interdition planes.

So just to be clear, you are claiming that the P-61B was a poor night fighter? Not as good as the Ju88G-6?? I would be curious, might you forward your comment that the P-61 was a dog, the Ju88G-6 ruled to one of these pilots you've interviewed and let us see their response?

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## Erich (Mar 29, 2005)

funny your last line is exactly what I did to Gilly. so Gilly what I hear you say is that you thought the P-61 did a fair job but was not the answer to the night interception problem over the Reich. he agreed. What did he think of the Ju 88G-6 and the possible threat of the Me 262 single engine nf. He did not enough info on the Ju 88 to tell as he did not face them but he did on the Fw 190F and G as well as the slow Stuka. He was quite impressed with the Ju 87D's slowness and ease to which it could bank and be lost in the ground haze where the P-61 (B) could not follow.
As to comment to the Me 262 he always hoped he would never have one in the area............think you know what the outcome would have been.
the start of the B varinat of the P-61 came in the heavy fighting in the Ardenne as the A's were being run into the ground some A's flown by three different crews on nights over Belgium.

Jack Slayton combats were with Bf 110G's in which he shot down 1 and agasint Ju 52's and an almost kill against a KG 200 Ju 290 agent dropping but he missed his chance on a night fighters moon...........interesting story.
He also battled or had visuals on Ju 188's which were numerous on the dark nights over the Reich.

Bud Anderson also from the 425th did night ground attack in his B but did not do well with the Widow on night intruder ops. he was shot down by German 2cm ground weapons and severly injured.

Bob Bolinder who was with the 414th flew both A's and B's scoring a couple of German bombers. He never flew agaisnt Ju 88G-6's as he was moved out of the 422nd line-up as additional personell and moved back to the Med with his unit. the man would have taken anything on he told me in the Widow because "that is what we had"

vet memories in this case are not as faulty as you might think. In my regard I find the Widow the better night ground attack a/c compared to the Ju 88G-6. True the Widow was equipped with AI right at the start the Ju 88G-6 not seeing Berlin sets till spring of 45. would have to compare the quality of the a/c crews but this would not be overally fair as the Germans had the most experience.


----------



## MP-Willow (Mar 29, 2005)

Erich and RG:
Thanks for the P-61 talk. This plane came late and I think could have preformed well if given the same oprotuities as the others.

But I would like to say that even in the PTO the P-61 never used the 4x0.50s in the turret as a turret mount. It was found the airflow over the guns would be very difficult to controll so it would be locked down. The guner could then be removed and replaced with more fuel or ammo. I think if the problum would have been fixed that would have helped to make the P-61Cs even better. But they were to late in getting out. 

Over all I think the USAAC crews were lacking in operational hours that the RAF and Germans had.


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 29, 2005)

Erich said:


> funny your last line is exactly what I did to Gilly. so Gilly what I hear you say is that you thought the P-61 did a fair job but was not the answer to the night interception problem over the Reich. he agreed. What did he think of the Ju 88G-6 and the possible threat of the Me 262 single engine nf. He did not enough info on the Ju 88 to tell as he did not face them but he did on the Fw 190F and G as well as the slow Stuka. He was quite impressed with the Ju 87D's slowness and ease to which it could bank and be lost in the ground haze where the P-61 (B) could not follow.
> As to comment to the Me 262 he always hoped he would never have one in the area............think you know what the outcome would have been.
> the start of the B varinat of the P-61 came in the heavy fighting in the Ardenne as the A's were being run into the ground some A's flown by three different crews on nights over Belgium.
> 
> ...



Well, I will have to research the other units, but as I've shown, only five of the 425ths 36 P-61's might have been B's, only one is confirmed as such. The B's SCR-720C radar was a significant improvement over the A's SCR-720.

Comparing the radar units on the two planes.... there is little comparison....

The Ju88G-6 had the Lichtenstein SN-2 radar, a 91 Mhz four meter unit with a maxium range of about 3 miles and a minimum range of about 500 meters (very late models had a frequency switch to allow shorter range function). It has some very limited ability to see through "window". This unit caused about a 50 kph reduction in speed - I doubt this reduction is reflected in the Ju88G-6 speed listed. The radar unit functioned in a fairly tight cone toward the front of the plane only.

The P-61A had a SCR-720 radar, a 3 Ghz 9.1 cm unit with 5 selectable range settings from 2 to 100 miles (10 miles was the practical limit for night fighter ops, with 6.5 miles being more realistic). There was no meaningful minimum range. The P-61B's SCR-720C radar was "much improved" but I've not been able to find out much details about the improvements. Ground clutter was not a big problem with either of these units and they were almost impervious to "window" and other jamming techniques. The radar dish rotated at 320 rpm could provided a very wide angle view when scanning, and then be focused in once a target was aquired.

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 29, 2005)

MP-Willow said:


> Erich and RG:
> Thanks for the P-61 talk. This plane came late and I think could have preformed well if given the same oprotuities as the others.
> 
> But I would like to say that even in the PTO the P-61 never used the 4x0.50s in the turret as a turret mount. It was found the airflow over the guns would be very difficult to controll so it would be locked down. The guner could then be removed and replaced with more fuel or ammo. I think if the problum would have been fixed that would have helped to make the P-61Cs even better. But they were to late in getting out.
> ...



The P-61A entered the war in mid 1944 in both the ETO/MTO and the PTO. It had minimal impact as a nightfighter in the ETO/MTO, mostly because it wasn't really used as a nightfighter much in that theater. In the PTO, it had some reasonable success.

With the P-61B, the turret problems were largely solved and they were used to train and fire on targets.

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## Erich (Mar 29, 2005)

RG according to vets I have interviewed they did have problems in 1945 with ground clutter. the 422nd and the 425th esepcially s you said did a dual purpose. One of hunting German bombers/fighters the other to clobber German ground positions. the AI was used for both and it is reported to me several times that when pursueing Ju 87D's and even Ju 188's if the a/c dove in a hard flick of the wing bank to the ground the German craft was lost.....this was the only thing said the the Widow crew returned to base to re-arm, fuel and possibly change the crew.

the Ju 88G-6 with Berlin AI was not jammed neither the coder within the craft. True I will agree the earlier forms of SN-d sets were nothing like the US or RAF AI sets during 1944.


----------



## Gemhorse (Mar 29, 2005)

For myself, I can't see why they even bought the P-61 into the ETO, as the British were doing the 'Night Shift', and the Mosquito was handling the Nightfighter situation really well.....Our crews were well-trained and integrated to this role, the aircraft were excellent for the role, the Mk.VIII radar was by then a good purposeful system, there was no extra need of an additional Allied NF....It wasn't necessarily how fast they could be, or as mentioned how many guns, the Mossies 4x 20mm's were just right, and having such a manoevurable aircraft that could SLOW to the potential victim's speed was the necessity...to stalk, identify, then terminate...
Speed was important, yes, the Ju-88's in particular could hare-off if warned of impending attack and could prove to be quite elusive, but when Bf-262's entered the fray, the Mossies could in turn be elusive...I haven't the figures but most Mossies shot down were more likely Bomber/Pathfinder variants without rearward-warning radar....There's no-way a P-61 compares favourably to the Mosquito as a NF.....they were of more use in the PTO as 'Bed-check Charlie' chasers.....


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 29, 2005)

Erich said:


> RG according to vets I have interviewed they did have problems in 1945 with ground clutter. the 422nd and the 425th esepcially s you said did a dual purpose. One of hunting German bombers/fighters the other to clobber German ground positions. the AI was used for both and it is reported to me several times that when pursueing Ju 87D's and even Ju 188's if the a/c dove in a hard flick of the wing bank to the ground the German craft was lost.....this was the only thing said the the Widow crew returned to base to re-arm, fuel and possibly change the crew.
> 
> the Ju 88G-6 with Berlin AI was not jammed neither the coder within the craft. True I will agree the earlier forms of SN-d sets were nothing like the US or RAF AI sets during 1944.



Again, that is probably the SCR-720 radar set, not the SCR-720C which was improved for downward operation.

Was Berlin even used? What I've read is that only experimental prototypes were tested in May 1945. Power output was low and thus range and resolution were limited. Lack of powerful magnets was a big problem for German night fighter radar designs.

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 29, 2005)

Gemhorse said:


> For myself, I can't see why they even bought the P-61 into the ETO, as the British were doing the 'Night Shift', and the Mosquito was handling the Nightfighter situation really well.....Our crews were well-trained and integrated to this role, the aircraft were excellent for the role, the Mk.VIII radar was by then a good purposeful system, there was no extra need of an additional Allied NF....It wasn't necessarily how fast they could be, or as mentioned how many guns, the Mossies 4x 20mm's were just right, and having such a manoevurable aircraft that could SLOW to the potential victim's speed was the necessity...to stalk, identify, then terminate...
> Speed was important, yes, the Ju-88's in particular could hare-off if warned of impending attack and could prove to be quite elusive, but when Bf-262's entered the fray, the Mossies could in turn be elusive...I haven't the figures but most Mossies shot down were more likely Bomber/Pathfinder variants without rearward-warning radar....There's no-way a P-61 compares favourably to the Mosquito as a NF.....they were of more use in the PTO as 'Bed-check Charlie' chasers.....



The P-61 was the USA's night fighter. I agree the Mossie was doing a good job, but it really started to shine as a night fighter when it got the AI Mk X radar, which was what the British called the SCR-720. Because of development and crew training issues, the P-61's were late getting into the action and thus SCR-720's were available for the British, who put them to very good use!

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## Gemhorse (Mar 29, 2005)

Yeah, in my reading years ago, things really improved with the advent of the A1 Mk.VIII, but you are correct, the Mk.X was an even more substantial improvement.....I read about the RAF Nightfighters quite some years ago, and generally run on memory there !!.......
I do believe the P-61 was a good aircraft, no doubt about that, just like some, it needed to be 'honed' to it's task and that takes time......

Gemhorse


----------



## Erich (Mar 29, 2005)

not to be too off topic but yes we will cover the Mossie ops in our book versus the Me 262.

Yes the Berlin 240A1 was used successfully on missions. It is hardly covered as it is used so terribly late in the war. Tested by crews in NJG 1 that did have the Ju 88G-6 on hand namely 9./NJG 1. NJG 4 especially and some craft fitted in NJG 5 with I. gruppe.

Again as I have said and RG just mentioned the P-61 was Americas bird for nightnfighting and no-one was going to take it out of the hands of the US crews. The US crews not so fortunate to have the Widow desperately asked, screamed , cursed whate have you for the a/c to be on their doorsteps and even by March 45 with several ETO-Med squadrons receiving them in the closing weeks the unit was never carried into operations but then remained as an all weather recon a/c after wars end


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 30, 2005)

Erich said:


> not to be too off topic but yes we will cover the Mossie ops in our book versus the Me 262.
> 
> Yes the Berlin 240A1 was used successfully on missions. It is hardly covered as it is used so terribly late in the war. Tested by crews in NJG 1 that did have the Ju 88G-6 on hand namely 9./NJG 1. NJG 4 especially and some craft fitted in NJG 5 with I. gruppe.



It appears production of the Berlin radar unit was extremely limited, as working units relied on captured British cavity magnetrons, though a german copy of the magintron was also quickly produced, with questionable functionality. How would you would make a decent cavity magnetron using iron magnets?

About 30-50 units were delivered by years end, of which apparently only about 10 made it into the Ju88. Some were also fitted into Me262 nightfighters, but none of these saw combat service.

Maybe you have more details on the deployment of Berlin radar units and how they were constructed?

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## MP-Willow (Apr 2, 2005)

RG- thaks for the corection. I miss read, thought the probums with the P-61 turret were corected with the C, and not the B. 

Question, if the RAF used the SCR-720, sets so well, why were they a problum with the P-61? Was it just crew training? I think i would have to agree that the P-61 might not have needed to be sent to the ETO, save to give the USAAC it's own aircraft and NF crews


----------



## Anonymous (Apr 2, 2005)

The SCR-720 were not a problem for P-61A crews, they were just not as good as the SCR-720(C) sets that came out in the P-61B. The C sets were less bothered by ground clutter, and more able to see through window and other jamming technologies.

As for the British - well they were the Allied night fighting experts. Experiance is always a very significant factor. They also got the SCR-720 into action earlier than the P-61A's (in any significant quantities), so they faced earlier countermeasures. My guess is they also got upgraded to the C series sets later in the war. And they did a lot more night-interception as opposed to night interdiction type missions than the P-61's.

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## MP-Willow (Apr 5, 2005)

Thanks.


----------



## GT (Jul 24, 2005)

Update.


----------



## Freedom Fan (Oct 23, 2021)

Erich said:


> C'mon RG I have stated many times I was a former member of the US night figher's association before it was broken up. I know some of the ETO vets of the 422nd and 425th nfs personally and have interviewed them at length my files on the ETO alone are some 4 inches thick. Will point out simply the ETO crews were trained in the useage of night binocs and yes the B's were used. have also in the past gave nightly reports with insertion of P-61 a/c numerations and the variant. Plain and simple there were not enough P-61's to go around, the P-61 was exhausted until service crews had to look for other means to replace needed parts struck by action/weather, crashes, etc....



Hi Freedom Fans, 
Thank you freedom fighters past and present!

Today, I’m searching for photos and other information re: the P-61A 'Tabitha', 425 NFS flown in 1944 and named by Capt Hardin Ross, USAAF. Capt. Ross flew Tabitha, whose namesake was his mother. A color photo of the P-61 Tabitha shows here name and a graphic design which I no nothing of. Any information or references you can share is appreciated. 

Eric, can you share your interview with Commander Lewis Of the 425 NFS please?

Regards, 
FreedomFan


----------



## Dana Bell (Oct 23, 2021)

Since this necro-thread has been ressurected, I have to ask: who was Erich and did his book ever get published? It sounds like I need to get a copy if it's still around...

Cheers,



Dana


----------



## Wurger (Oct 24, 2021)

"Tabitha" P-61A serial 42-5569



> "Tabitha" was one of the 425ths P-61s that met with an early fate, crashing on October 27, 1944 while landing. At the time it was being flown by Lt. Bruce Hefling and F/O Bill Broach, both of whom were killed in the crash.


the info source: Northrop's Lethal Spider: The P-61 Black Widow Part One: The European Theatre

A note though ... the profile seen on the site above has a wrong serial (29569) but it was 25569 as the colour picture of the P-61 shows.







the pic source: Northrop P-61 Black Widow posts 162 and 171 there.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Informative Informative:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## special ed (Oct 24, 2021)

Additionally, post 166 must have been after 1947 due to the insignia..


----------



## Wurger (Oct 24, 2021)

Yes, you are right. But it is not the requested kite. I meant the two posts , #162 and #171 only.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
1 | Like List reactions


----------

