# Most Daring Raid



## 16KJV11 (Sep 27, 2007)

What was the most daring raid be it by land, air or sea of WWII?


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## delcyros (Sep 28, 2007)

Operation Rheinübung and the brief but exciting hunt for the Bismarck comes to mind. That raid failed admirably


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## comiso90 (Sep 28, 2007)

... Otto Skorzeny rescuing Mussolini.... 

.Doolittle Raid

assassination of yamaoto

The Cockleshell Heroes

Operation Jericho

Dam Busters

Raid at Cabanatuan

.

.


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## ToughOmbre (Sep 28, 2007)

Doolittle's Tokyo Raid

Raid on Cabanatuan POW camp

TO


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## pbfoot (Sep 28, 2007)

The Italian frogmen who severly damaged RN Med fleet in Alexandria


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## comiso90 (Sep 28, 2007)

swordfish raid on Taranto


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## Maharg (Sep 28, 2007)

ZForce attacking Singapore Harbour. In 1943 some ambitious officers of the Allied Intelligence Bureau (AIB) wanted to strike the Japanese in their secure strongholds. 28 year old Captain Ivan Lyon of the Gordon Highlanders teamed up with 61 year old Australian Bill Reynolds and hatched a plan to attack the Japanese in Singapore harbour where they would launch collapsible canoes carrying commandos who would attach limpet mines to the Japanese shipping.

"Z" Special Unit in Australia during WW2


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## comiso90 (Sep 28, 2007)

Maharg said:


> ZForce attacking Singapore Harbour. In 1943 some ambitious officers of the Allied Intelligence Bureau (AIB) wanted to strike the Japanese in their secure strongholds. 28 year old Captain Ivan Lyon of the Gordon Highlanders teamed up with 61 year old Australian Bill Reynolds and hatched a plan to attack the Japanese in Singapore harbour where they would launch collapsible canoes carrying commandos who would attach limpet mines to the Japanese shipping.
> 
> "Z" Special Unit in Australia during WW2




The Cockleshell Heroes


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## delcyros (Sep 29, 2007)

U-47 attacking the RN home fleet harbour of Scapa Flow and sinking the BB HMS Royal Oak should count as well.


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## Watanbe (Sep 29, 2007)

The daring of the Dambusters raid has always intrigued me. The Swordfish attack on Taranto was also an excellent example of daring and skill.


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## Maharg (Sep 29, 2007)

comiso90, different raid M8. The 'Cockleshell' raid was in Europe. Similar but not the same.


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## Graeme (Sep 30, 2007)

The Bruneval raid.


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## 16KJV11 (Sep 30, 2007)

Dare I say: Pearl Harbor?


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## ToughOmbre (Sep 30, 2007)

16KJV11 said:


> Dare I say: Pearl Harbor?



You're right. That might be the most daring raid of all. Surprised none of us thought of it sooner, except for the fact most people don't think of Pearl Harbor as a "raid".

Two hours that changed the world.

TO


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## delcyros (Sep 30, 2007)

PH was a raid, no doubt and a very influential one. But does that alone qualifies? The assmebling of houndreds of strike planes make me think that PH was not a specificly raid which fullfills the main requirement of "most daring raid"- That are the odds working against the raiders. In Pearl Harbour the odds were heavily favouring the raiders instead.
A good example for a very daring raid are the italian attacks on the well guarded Alexandria harbour or the use of minisubs against Tirpitz in within it´s heavily guarded fjord.


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## ToughOmbre (Sep 30, 2007)

delcyros said:


> PH was a raid, no doubt and a very influential one. But does that alone qualifies? The assmebling of houndreds of strike planes make me think that PH was not a specificly raid which fullfills the main requirement of "most daring raid"- That are the odds working against the raiders. In Pearl Harbour the odds were heavily favouring the raiders instead.



How loosely or tightly do we want to define "raid"?

The odds were *not* favoring the Japanese, certainly not "heavily favoring". They thought that they could possibly lose 50% of the attacking force. American unpreparedness and incompetancy worked in the Japanese favor. If the Japanese plan was anything, it was definitely daring.

TO


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## ccheese (Sep 30, 2007)

How about the British commando raid on the French village of Bruneval ?
The 'Brits" ran in and swiped a Wurzburg radar from the Germans !

Charles


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## delcyros (Oct 1, 2007)

PH had a fairly well laid out plan to base on. The airgroups were properly protected, the aircrew esspecially trained and the loss rates were that high because there was no experience in such attacks from the japanese position. Add the element of surprise, which was assured with the first action in a new war and You have Your odds. The japanese outnumbered the US at Pearl Harbour in terms of planes, they always had more fighters in the air (best hunting ground: over enemy airfields), US AAA was without proper tactics and N-squared law simply works in this condition. Therefor I wouldn´t judge this as a most daring raid. Had the japanese simply been replaced by the italiens (assuming they had carriers), the result would have been comparable. In a very daring raid, nobody could be sure that the strike works out as one might whish.


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## Downwind.Maddl-Land (Oct 1, 2007)

Hey Chaps, I'll fully admit that I am 100% biased but the Dams Raid has just got to get the nod. It’s got all the ingredients:

Inspired idea  taken to masterful engineering conclusion

Against 'official' indifference :  

Then the bluff called, leading to short timescale in which to mount the raid  

Formation of specialist unit – multi-national to boot 

Intensive training using specialist tactics, now against the clock 

Frenetic and ingenious workarounds (in typical Brit fashion I have to say!) to make the raid viable: spotlights for height, the Dann sight (or bits of string and chinagraph marks!), roller maps (“go make your own, Carruthers – there’s a good chap!”) and VHF radios purloined from the ‘fighter boys’ 

Magnificent leadership; whatever people now say about Gibson he was a magnificent Leader; reminder: he was a Wg Cdr [Lt Col] but only 24 when he led the raid  

The dog! (who drinks beer but becomes one of the casualties –  sniff; OK I like dogs!)

Brilliant execution. Low level: 100’ transit, at night, no radar or even radalt, 60’ weapons release height: 

Phenomenal bravery 1: Most realising that would be a ‘Shaky do’ – but they all went anyway[-o< 

Phenomenal bravery 2: Pounding up to a heavily defended target at 60’, at night, no aids, lights showing, in a Heavy Bomber, shaking like a wild thing 

Phenomenal bravery 3: Doing it again, and again until the job’s done – with the defenders rapidly learning ‘the form’. 

Phenomenal bravery 4: Other crews going in to DELIBERATELY DRAW THE FLAK OFF THEIR COLLEAGUES 

Overall successful conclusion 2/3 objectives achieved; don’t anyone DARE try the trendy-lefty response of : “oh it wasn’t really a successful raid ‘cos the 3rd dam wasn’t breached and the others were repaired in 4/5 months….”. Because I will personally visit you in the wee small hours and put a bat up your nightshirt! 

Unfortunately, heroic losses for an exceptionally heroic mission ​Gentlemen, I rest my case.

Questions anyone?


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## ccheese (Oct 1, 2007)

Hmmmm. Methinks the lad had a valid point. However, could the chap be a
bit biased ? The defense has rested..... anyone rising to cross examine ?

Charles


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## Downwind.Maddl-Land (Oct 1, 2007)

Lad!? I'm 52!  

And don't get me started on Hopgood's (#2 in on the Mőehne) bravery and valour. He should have got a (posthumous) VC too.


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## ccheese (Oct 1, 2007)

Downwind: Yes, Sonny, I said Lad...... I'm 73, that gives me the right 

Charles


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## Downwind.Maddl-Land (Oct 1, 2007)

Touché pussycat!


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## 16KJV11 (Oct 1, 2007)

Does Dieppe qualifiy here?


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## ccheese (Oct 1, 2007)

Downwind.Maddl-Land said:


> Touché pussycat!



Downwind:

I hope you took that in the spirit in which it was given..... in jest.
However, I am 73 DOB is 2/19/34

Charles


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## Downwind.Maddl-Land (Oct 1, 2007)

> Does Dieppe qualifiy here?



Let's think about that......

ER -NO!

A complete farce from beginning to end - an awful lot of Canadian lives were lost to 'learn lessons' that could (should?) have been worked through on the planning table.

A 'Daring raid' should enjoy a modicum of success, surely?


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## Downwind.Maddl-Land (Oct 1, 2007)

CCheese:



> I hope you took that in the spirit in which it was given..... in jest.



Absolutely..............Old Man! 

Excellent riposte - No sense of humour failure here whatsoever!
Toodle pip!


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## ccheese (Oct 1, 2007)

Downwind.Maddl-Land said:


> Absolutely..............Old Man!
> 
> Toodle pip!



I've been called worse. "Old Man", I'm getting use to.... It can be taken 
as a compliment. They do call the CO of a ship or station, "The Old Man".

I'll accept it in that spirit....

Charles


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## comiso90 (Oct 1, 2007)

Maharg said:


> comiso90, different raid M8. The 'Cockleshell' raid was in Europe. Similar but not the same.




ahhh..

I got my "kayak raiders" confused, thanks


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## Downwind.Maddl-Land (Oct 1, 2007)

> I've been called worse. "Old Man", I'm getting use to.... It can be taken
> as a compliment. They do call the CO of a ship or station, "The Old Man".
> 
> I'll accept it in that spirit....



As was intended........


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## Matt308 (Oct 1, 2007)

Toodle pip. [Mental note to look that one up]


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## ccheese (Oct 1, 2007)

Matt308: I think that's a bit of British... like toodle-ooo and cherrio pip-pip !
Talley Ho..... And all that sort of rot ! Sounds Cockney to me !!

BTW did you see where "Miss Moneypenny" (of James Bond) died ?

Charles


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## Downwind.Maddl-Land (Oct 1, 2007)

I really do give up with you colonials……..no culture, do you see? 

Chin chin!


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## pbfoot (Oct 1, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> Toodle pip. [Mental note to look that one up]


I think it means may I have an enema please


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## Downwind.Maddl-Land (Oct 1, 2007)

> I think it means may I have an enema please


I say! No need for that sort of talk.  See post #33!

G'night guys - thanks for the Banter!


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## Matt308 (Oct 2, 2007)

I get it. Kinda like the US counterpart to "Yo. Yo. Yo. Fo' shizzle, my nizzle." No wonder I didn't get it. It's not the King's English.


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## Downwind.Maddl-Land (Oct 3, 2007)

> "Yo. Yo. Yo. Fo' shizzle, my nizzle."



'pon my soul - what sort of speak is that?



> It's not the King's English



er - no; more like 'cut glass - Home Counties'! And we've been ruled by a Queen for some time now! 

(Did you guys know that RAF Officers' (and probably the 2 other Services for that matter) uniform buttons and Service Dress hats have a "King's" or "Queen's" crown emblazoned on them? The King's Crown is domed shaped, while the Queen's Crown is more heart shaped. On the change of Monarch, all one's uniform has to be modified.)

Never mind all that - back to the thread. Was the Dam's Mission the most daring raid? No one has yet risen to cross examine..........


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## ccheese (Oct 3, 2007)

Downwind..... you are the cat's pajamas ! You take all this "Brit" ribbing
good-naturedly...... and, to quote a Brit.... "You give it 'em back !"

I love it......

I think the jury's still out on the Dam mission.....

Charles


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## Downwind.Maddl-Land (Oct 3, 2007)

Nah! Just trying the avoid the enema.......


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## Gnomey (Oct 3, 2007)

I would say the Dam's Raid is up there among the most daring of the all. A couple of others to consider would be the Amien's Prison Raid, the Copenhagen Gestapo Raid, the raids on the Norsk Hydro Plant in Norway and of course all the others that have been mentioned as well.


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## Downwind.Maddl-Land (Oct 13, 2007)

A-Hem.....It’s been 2 weeks since I proposed the Dams Raid; no cross examination or counter responses thus far……

Would it be too remiss of me to claim ‘Case proven’?


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## majorwoody10 (Oct 14, 2007)

HOW ABOUT WHEN in 1940 blitz a handfull of german engineers landed in gliders on top of a huge dutch fort and shut it down with satchel charges and shmeisers ...or the mosquito raid on the gestapo prison in france ..or task force baum ,pattons ill conceived plan to spring his son in law ...jap parras take dutch indies airfield with pistoles and grenades ,,, preins scapa flow uboat raid was pretty awsome , doolittles b25s off of hornet ..the eboat raid right before d day .. chenaults tigers raid of siamese jap airshow , first raid ploesti


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## Downwind.Maddl-Land (Oct 14, 2007)

Dear majorwoody10. I don't deny any of 'em - at all! Prien's Foray into Scapa, in particular, must have taken gonads of ferric qualities plus more than a little planning and cunning; and I have a particularly soft spot for Doolittle’s soireé to Downtown Tokyo too. However, the thrust of the thread was to debate ‘Which was the *most*……’ 

So where are protagonist's arguments (with a small 'a') for the deeds you list? I happen to reason that the Dams raid has the edge and qualifies as the *most* daring.


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## Instal (Oct 25, 2007)

It looks like this could use a poll. For me it has to be PH. It was daring on a unpresidented scale not seen before and never will be again.


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## plan_D (Oct 25, 2007)

Operation _Chariot_!

The raid on Pearl Harbour was just a larger scale version of Taranto.


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## T4.H (Oct 25, 2007)

Eban Emael
(Fort in Belgium)


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## Instal (Oct 28, 2007)

plan_D said:


> Operation _Chariot_!
> 
> The raid on Pearl Harbour was just a larger scale version of Taranto.



Exactly, and the larger the scale the more difficult to accomplish. The more difficult to accomplish the more daring it is. As well as the difficuly is the potential results of the raid. Most Japaneese commanders knew that the result could very well be the destruction of thier country if things didn't go perfectly and they went ahead anyway. It doesn't get more daring than that.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 28, 2007)

T4.H said:


> Eban Emael
> (Fort in Belgium)



Not sure if that was the most daring of the whole war but it certainly was very very impressive.


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## pbfoot (Oct 28, 2007)

Instal said:


> Exactly, and the larger the scale the more difficult to accomplish. The more difficult to accomplish the more daring it is. As well as the difficuly is the potential results of the raid. Most Japaneese commanders knew that the result could very well be the destruction of thier country if things didn't go perfectly and they went ahead anyway. It doesn't get more daring than that.


Didn't the US navy during on excercise in the 30's perform the same raid on PH with its carrier force with the same results


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## ToughOmbre (Oct 28, 2007)

pbfoot said:


> Didn't the US navy during on excercise in the 30's perform the same raid on PH with its carrier force with the same results



Yes, there were scenarios and Navy exercises of an attack on Pearl. Billy Mitchell even predicted as early as 1924 that Pearl Harbor would be vulnerable to an attack by Japanese carrier based aircraft. He got court-martial for his efforts. 

TO


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## ccheese (Oct 28, 2007)

TO; As for daring raids, haw about the British raid on the "Heavy Water" works 
at the Vemork plant in Rjukan, Norway ? This was Operation Gunnerside, in
February 1943. A group of British commandos blew up almost
all the "heavy water" and melted into the night without a shot being fired.
Later, when 14 tons of the "heavy water" was to be shipped to Germany
they struck again, sinking the ferry "Hydro" in 1300 feet of water in Lake
Tinnsjo.

Richard Widmark starred in a movie about it, but I can't remember the name
of it.

Charles


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## Wildcat (Oct 28, 2007)

ccheese said:


> Richard Widmark starred in a movie about it, but I can't remember the name
> of it.
> Charles



That would be "The Heroes of Telemark" with Kirk Douglas and Richard Harris.


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## bigZ (Oct 28, 2007)

Operation Jaywick . Wasn't this one made into a film?


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## ccheese (Oct 28, 2007)

Wildcat said:


> That would be "The Heroes of Telemark" with Kirk Douglas and Richard Harris.




You're right, Wildcat.... got my people mixed up.... Memory ain't as good as it
usta was !

Charles


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## Wildcat (Oct 28, 2007)

ccheese said:


> You're right, Wildcat.... got my people mixed up.... Memory ain't as good as it
> usta was !
> 
> Charles



Never mind Charles, was only an average flick anyway.


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