# The Greatest Fighter Pilot of WWII... Finalized....



## lesofprimus (May 25, 2005)

OK... Here we go........ This should be the Ultra-Listing for the Top Aces of WWII......... Kills do not necessarily make the Greatest Ace, so keep that in mind....... Please, DO NOT vote for ur favorite pilot, but vote which pilot u feels deserves this title...

A short Biopic of each pilot on the Poll......

Ivan Kozhedub, USSR, 62 Kills... He was the leading Soviet and Allied Ace of WWII.... Flying mainly the Lavochkin La-7 fighter aircraft, he carried out 330 sorties, was involved in 120 aerial combats and was credited with 62 confirmed victories.. At the end of September, 1944 by the order of commander of Air Force Marshal I. Novikov, a group of pilots under Kozhedubs' command directed to the Baltic States to struggle with enemy’s fighters - "hunters". It had to act against a group of Aces under command of Major Helmut Vik, who gained 130 victories. So met the Soviet and German schools of fighters- "hunters". In several days of battles his pilots brought down 12 enemy’s airplanes, having lost only two. Kozhedub gained three victories. After such a shattering defeat, German "hunters" were forced to stop active flights on his area of the front. In winter in 1945 the group continued the intense air battles. On February 12 6 airplanes of "Lavochkin" conducted a heavy battle with 30 enemy’s fighters. Russian pilots gained a new victory in this flight – they brought down 8 Fw.190's, with Kozhedub bringing down 3 of them. There was only 1 Russian loss. Earning the nickname "Ivan the Terrible", he was the only Soviet pilot to shoot down a Messerschmitt Me-262 jet fighter, piloted by Kurt Lange from 1./KG (J) 54.... Ivan was one of only two Soviet fighter pilots to be awarded the Gold Star(Hero of the Soviet Union) three times during World War II..... Kozhedub also was forced to shoot down two U.S. P-51 Mustangs that mistakenly attacked his La-7 on one occasion...... Both these P-51 losses have been verified by USAAF sources.

Alexandr Pokryshkin, USSR, 59 Kills... Pokryshkin was one of the greatest tacticians in the Soviet Fighter Air Arm. He approached air combat in a scientific manner, learning much from the memoirs of French WW 1 ace René Fonck, Mes Combats. Pokryshkin would eventually develop to the second most successful fighter pilot on the Allied side during WW 2. During the war Pokryshkin was 3 times awarded by Soviet Hero Title (Gold Star). He flew total of 550 sorties, participated in 139 air combats he scored officially 59 enemy planes. But in opinion of some historicans his killboard list should be enlarged by nanother 13 victories, scored in battles over Kuban. During free hunt over German territory he downed a row of enemy planes, but in that period Soviet Command confirmed only planes destroyed over own area.

Hans-Joachim Marseille, GERM, 158 Kills... His final score included 101 Curtiss Tomahawks and Kittyhawks, 30 Hurricanes, 16 Spitfires and 4 bombers ... He returned to North Africa on 23 August 1942 and, flying a new Bf 109F, carried on from where he had left off. The achievement for which he is probably best remembered came on 1 September. Taking off at 07.30 to escort JU 87s, he spotted 10 Kittyhawks approaching just as the divebombers began their attack. In the space of two minutes he shot down two of the fighters; then, as the JU 87s withdrew, he accounted for another. On the way back to base, his flight was intercepted by Spitfires and during the next nine minutes six of them had fallen to Marseille's guns. On landing at 09.14, his armourer found that he had used just 20 cannon shells and 60 rounds of machine-gun ammunition to down nine aircraft. That day he flew two more sorties and shot down another eight aircraft, including five P-40s in the space of six minutes. His total of 17 in one day was only beaten once, by Emil Lang on the Russian Front. Adolf Galland was moved to call him 'the unrivalled virtuoso among fighter pilots of the Second World War'....

Erich Hartmann, GER, 352 Kills... The highest scoring ace of all time with 352 aerial kills. Flying Bf 109s (Me-109s) against the overmatched Soviet MiGs and Yaks for almost three years, he accumulated his unrivalled score. Hartmann claimed, that of all his accomplishments, he was proudest of the fact that he never lost a wingman. He is also reputed to have said. "Get close .. when he fills the entire windscreen ... then you can't possibly miss." He reached 50 by August of 1943. Within the month, he had reached 80, and was promoted to lead 9./JG52. Earlier in the war, 25 or 50 victories would have earned a German fighter pilot the Knight's Cross. By late 1943, Hartmann had to down 148 before he earned his Knight's Cross. By March 2, 1944, he had reached a total of 202, earning him the Oak Leaves. He was the fourth Luftwaffe fighter pilot to reach 250, the first to reach 300, and the only one to reach 350. 

Adolf Galland, GER, 104 Kills, 50 X Spits... Galland achieved 104 aerial victories in 705 missions, all on the Western front. Included in his score are at least seven victories flying the Me 262 and four four-engined bombers. He was himself shot down four times. Galland became one of the most controversial figures of his time through his skirmishes with Reichsmarschal Göring and his frank addresses to Hitler when he emphasized the need for more fighters to oppose the increasingly intense allied bombing raids over Germany. Galland led JV 44 until 26 April 1945 gaining up to seven victories flying the Me 262 jet fighter. On this day Generalleutnant Galland led 12 rocket-equipped Me 262s from München-Reim to intercept a formation of B-26 medium bombers targetting the airfield at Lechfeld. He claimed two of the bombers, but with cannon-fire rather than the rockets with which his Me 262 was armed. During his initial approach, Galland had failed to deactivate a safety switch which prevented him from firing the rockets. During his attacks on the bombers, Galland’s Me 262 was struck by return fire. Disengaging from the bombers, he was bounced by a P-47 flown by 1st Lt James J Finnegan of the 50th Fighter Group, USAAF. Galland was wounded in the right knee and his aircraft received further damage. He was able to bring his crippled jet back to München-Reim and successfully land, albeit with a flat nose wheel tyre. He was forced to leap from his aircraft and take shelter because the airfield was under attack by American fighters. The wound suffered in this encounter were serious enough to end his combat flying. 

Heinz Bar, GER, 221 Kills, 10 X P-51's, 10 X P-47's, 4 x P-38's, 21 x Bombers(125 kills West, 96 Kills East) 52 American Kills... Heinz Bär is the 8th ranking air "Ace" of all time. He fought on every German front throughout the entire duration of World War II in Europe and Africa. His 16 aerial victories acquired while he flew the Me 262A place him as the 2nd ranking jet ace of WWII. While fighting on every front and flying just about every type of German fighter, Heinz Bär was shot down 18 times and wounded on many occasions.... 1941 brought the relocation of JG 51 to the Eastern Front. Here Bär's score rose quickly. On 2 July 1941 he was promoted to Leutnant and awarded the Knight's Cross, having totalled 27 kills. When he reached 60 victories, on 14 August 1941, Bär was decorated with the Oak Leaves. On one day, 30 August 1941, Bär scored 6 Soviet planes. From the beginning of 1942 Bär took command of IV/JG 51, and in mid-February he was awarded by Swords, having achieved 90 kills. In 1957, while performing aerobatics in a light plane on the anniversary date of his 200th aerial victory, Heinz Bär was killed instantly when he suddenly spun in from a low altitude.

Walter Nowotny, GER, 259 Kills, 24 X IL2's, 3 Kills in Me-262... On September 1, 1943 he downed ten Russian aircraft. On a morning bomber escort mission, he destroyed four attacking Soviet fighters. He noticed another group, and promptly got two of those. As the dogfight carried him 180 km over Russian lines, he closed in on a seventh victim, only to have his cannon jam. he closed in ever closer and finished it off with his machine guns. He made good his return by flying on the deck, right thru the flak thrown up from a large town. That afternoon, on another sortie, he got three more during an in-and-out duel in the clouds. A few days later, he received his long-awaited Oak Leaves. "The Swords" followed three weeks later, awarded to him at a ceremony at Hitler's headquarters. On October 15, 1943, he destroyed a Curtiss P-40 - his 250th victory. He was the first pilot ever to achieve such a score. On September 26, 1944, he was appointed CO of Kommando Nowotny, the world's first jet fighter unit, based at Achmer and Hesepe...

Josef Priller, GER, 101 Kills.... “Pips” Priller flew 1,307 combat missions to achieve 101 victories. All his victories were recorded over the Western Front and include 11 four-engine bombers. He was the most succesful pilot in battles with Spitfires claiming at least 68 of them. By the end of 1942 Priller had 81 confirmed victories to his tally. On 11 January 1943, Priller became Kommodore of JG 26, replacing Major Gerhard Schöpfel (45 victories, RK) who was taking up a staff role. He was awarded the Schwertern (Nr 73) on 2 July 1944. Oberstleutnant Priller brought up his 100th victory on 18 July 1944 when he brought down a USAAF B-24 four-engine bomber. On 1 January 1945, Priller led JG 26 and III./JG 54 in the attack on the Allied airfields, codenamed Operation Bodenplatte, at Brussels-Evére and Brussels-Grimbergen. On 28 January, Priller was appointed Inspekteur der Jagdflieger Ost, a position that required he cease operational flying and which he held until the end of the war. 

Dick Bong, USA, 40 Kills... Assigned to the 9th Fighter Group, in Brisbane, Australia, he was sent shortly afterward to Port Moresby, New Guinea, where he was temporarily attached to the 39th Fighter Squadron, 35th Fighter Group. There, two days after Christmas, he scored his first victories, downing a Val and a Zeke over Dobodura. By January 1943 he was an ace, his fifth victory an Oscar over the Anon Gulf. Flying the P-38 Lightning in the Pacific theater Major Richard Bong was the top scoring U.S. Ace during WWII with 40 kills. A skilled flyer, Bong was noted for his silent approaches to his airfield with both engines feathered. As he swooped over the field he would loop his P-38 and land. General MacArthur presented the Medal of Honor to Bong on the Tacloban airfield on December 12, 1944. He tossed away his written remarks and said, "Major Richard Ira Bong, who has ruled the air from New Guinea to the Philippines, I now induct you into the society of the bravest of the brave, the wearers of the Congressional Medal of Honor of the United States." Then he pinned the medal on Bong, they shook hands and saluted. Bong was the first fighter pilot handpicked by General George C. Kenney in the fall of 1942 for a P-38 squadron designed to strengthen his Fifth Air Force in Australia and New Guinea. 

David McCampbell, USA, 34 Kills... McCampbell entered combat on May 19, 1944, leading a fighter sweep over Marcus Island. Three weeks later on June 11, flying near Saipan, he saw a lone Zero come out of the clouds. He turned towards the plane and fired three bursts. The Zero went down streaming smoke, the first in long series of successes for the CAG. He reacted coolly to his first aerial victory, "I knew I could shoot him down and I did. That's all there was to it." On June 19, the Japanese launched two large raids of Judys and Vals, escorted by fighters. Other carrier air groups took care of the first raid; Essex' Fabled Fifteen, under McCampbell went after the second group of eighty planes. McCampbell started the slaughter at 11:39 by exploding the first Aichi D4Y2 "Judy" dive bomber he spotted. As he darted across to the other side of the enemy formation, evading a gantlet of return fire, McCampbell quickly splashed a second Judy, sped toward the front of the enemy formation to record a "probable" on a third, dispatched the formation leader's left wingman with a staccato burst, downed the leader with a steady stream of machine-gun bullets, then scored a final kill on a diving enemy craft. In minutes McCampbell had logged five kills and one probable. There was a second air battle in the afternoon. After shooting down yet another Zero (his sixth for the day!), he became separated from his flight of eight and was returning alone to his carrier, the USS Essex. As his Hellcat cruised at 6,000 feet past Guam's Orote Peninsula, he spotted two Zeros attacking a Navy S0C seaplane picking up a downed pilot in the water. Diving to the attack, McCampbell shot down one of the two Zeros. Lt. Commander George Duncan, another VF-15 pilot, came upon the scene at that time and got the other. It was McCampbell's seventh for the day and his ninth in eight days of combat. 

Hiroyoshi Nishizawa, JPN, 87 Kills.... "To all who flew with him," wrote Saburo Sakai, "he became 'the Devil'....Never have I seen a man with a fighter plane do what Nishizawa would do with his Zero. His aerobatics were all at once breathtaking, brilliant, totally unpredictable, impossible, and heart-stirring to witness." He also had the hunter's eye, capable of spotting enemy aircraft before his comrades knew there was anything else in the sky. One of his comrades in arms, Saburo Sakai, wrote that "one felt the man should be in a hospital bed. He was tall and lanky for a Japanese, nearly five feet eight inches in height. He had a gaunt look about him; he weighed only 140 pounds, and his ribs protruded sharply through his skin." Although Nishizawa was accomplished in both judo and sumo, Sakai noted that his comrade "suffered almost constantly from malaria and tropical skin disease. He was pale most of the time." Nishizawa remains Japan's "Naval Ace of Aces". Known as the "Devil of Rabaul". Has been credited with well over 100 aerial victories by some sources and would then qualify as Japan's all-time "Ace of Aces". Formed part of the Tainan Ku's world famous "Ace Trio" along with Toshio Ohta and Saburo Sakai. Destroyed six Grumman F4F Wildcats over Guadalcanal on November 2, 1942. With the 203rd Ku, Nishizawa's flight of four Zeros escorted five other bomb-laden Zeros in the IJNAF's first official suicidal "Kamikaze" attack, destroying two of 20 intercepting Grumman F6F Hellcats on the mission of October 25, 1944 - The very next day of October 26th, Nishizawa was killed while a passenger on a Nakajima Ki.49 Donryu "Helen" Army Bomber transport aircraft that was shot down by intercepting Hellcats of VF-14 from the USS WASP.

Saburo Sakai, JPN, 64 Kills... He first flew in China with the Imperial Japanese Navy, where he gained two victories, and joined the land-based naval wing at Tainan. On December 8, 1941, the Tainan Wing attacked Clark Field in the Philipines. The 45 A6M2 Zeros escorted 53 G4M Bettys until they found the air base. At 15,000 feet, Sakai saw five Curtiss P-40s take off from the field. They appeared to be avoiding combat, so Sakai brought his fighters down to strafe. But, as the Zeros climbed away, the P-40s did attack. Sakai and his two wingmen engaged the American fighters and the P-40s tried to break off. Four flew into the cover created by the smoke now rising from the airfield, but one got separated. and it crashed after Sakai caught it with bursts from both his machine guns and cannons. It was the first American plane shot down in the Philipines. On 28th February, whilst on solo patrol east of Surabaya in Java, he intercepted a DC-3 transport plane. Though Imperial Japanese Navy pilots had strict instructions to destroy all enemy aircraft regardless of whether they were armed or not and without any special consideration for the presence of civilians or medical personnel, Sakai did not simply open fire upon it; he paced the plane and pulled alongside it. For a brief moment he had thought about downing the plane. But he saw a young blonde-haired woman and a small child staring at him from the DC-3...

Marmaduke St. John Pattle, SA, 62 Kills... Pattle was the highest scoring pilot of the RAF and Commonwealth Air Forces during World War 2, with 62 "Kills". Pattle claimed all of his victories in North Africa and Greece, he was the top scoring pilot in both the Gladiator and Hurricane. A gifted flyer and natural marksman he took infinite pains to improve his talents, doing exercises to improve his distance vision and sharpen his reflexes. His first 15 victories were in the antiquated Gloucester Gladiator, 9 more victories followed in a Hurricane. Then over 39 days he shot down no less than 26 enemy aircraft. He scored his victories in less than nine months of active warfare. This gives some idea of the almost incredible ability of this great fighter pilot, of whom his friends said: "He flies like a bird". Pat Pattle was the most successful fighter pilot of the RAF and Commonwealth Air Forces in the 1939-45 war; that he has never been officially acknowledged as such is due to the fact that the British Ministry of Defence is not in a position to confirm his victories. His last official score was 23 in the citation for his Bar to the DFC in March 1941. All official records of the last few weeks in Greece were destroyed. The operations record book of No.33 Squadron RAF, written from memory and intelligence summaries, confirms that he destroyed many more enemy aircraft during those few weeks in which he commanded that Squadron(which command, and even his posting to the Squadron, are not recorded officially). There is no doubt that he was the highest scoring pilot of the RAF and Commonwealth Air Forces...

James Johnson, UK, 38 Kills... Johnson flew in over 1,000 combat missions. He holds the remarkable record of never being shot down and on only one occasion was his Spitfire damaged by the enemy. Johnson has been credited with 38 kills. Officially this is the highest total of any RAF pilot but some experts believe that John Pattle scored more than 50. 
Johnson, who was awarded the DSO and two bars, the DFC and bar, the Legion d'Honneur and the Croix de Guerre, stayed in the Royal Air Force after the war. He served with the United States Air Force in the Korean War where he was awarded the American DFC. What is truly amazing about 'Johnnie' Johnson's 'score' is that ALL 38 victories were against single engined fighters ranking him as the top-scoring Allied Ace of World War II.

Thomas McGuire, USA, 38 Kills... Shooting down aircraft was something Tommy McGuire excelled at. He stood about five feet seven inches tall, and sported a big black mustache to make himself appear older. He was extremely aggressive and wanted to be the number one ace and win the Medal of Honor before going home. He was also a magnificent pilot. On one occasion, he was approaching a Japanese fighter head on, neither willing to move, and pulled out at the last second. Later at his base, the ground crew had to use steel wool to scrape away the paint left by the Japanese fighter! McGuire was the commander of the 431st Fighter Squadron of the 475th Fighter Group. The pilots of the 431st felt that McGuire could do things in a P-38 that were virtually impossible. His skill with the P-38 was so extraordinary, he almost defied reality. He had tremendous faith in his skills as a pilot and the plane he flew. On Christmas Day 1944, McGuire volunteered to lead a squadron of fifteen planes to provide protection for B-24 Liberators attacking Mabaldent Airdrome. As the formation crossed over Luzon, the Americans were jumped by twenty Zeros. McGuire shot down three throughout the fight. The following day, he volunteered for a similar mission. One of the B-24's was being hit and while firing at extreme range of 400 yards at a 45 degree deflection shot, McGuire hit the Zero in the cockpit and it burst into flames. During the course of this engagement, McGuire shot down four Zeros, bringing his total to thirty-eight overall. By this time Dick Bong had gone home, for a triumphant tour of the U.S., with 40 victories to his his credit. McGuire had 38, was still in combat, and there were still plenty of Jap planes around. Everyone, including McGuire, expected him to break Bong's record. It seemed like just a matter of time, not too much time at that. Afterwards, McGuire would have gone home to a hero's welcome as well. But time ran out for Tommy McGuire, just as he almost had his goal within his grasp.

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## FLYBOYJ (May 25, 2005)

Thanks Les, let's rock!


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## Erich (May 26, 2005)

hate to say it man all the time you spent on these minature bio's is really worthless. You cannot even compare US with German let alone British with Russian. Great info though.....
As I said the best bet would be to take 10 top aces of each country and then debate as to which is the best per nationality.

Don't let this be offensive as I am not meaning this, it is just best worked out this way to associate the pilot with their own country. Even some of the heavy German hitters listed I would not vote for as 3/4r's of their kills were early war when the pickins were easy. Marseilles 17 kills is not confirmed with British-Austrailian confirmation/losses listings. Priller basically in 1945 was removed from the war as Geschwader Kommodore as well as Galland whom flew possible 12 misisons with the Me 262 in his JV 44 but what did he do before that ? not much I am afraid except get on the worng side of "Fatty".

Ok I am now ready for the tirade of remarks..........let it begin.

thanks for posting this Les, and maybe I am too hasty but it's late and I am tired

by the way Heinz Bär is the best or was it Anton Hackl ? or .... ?

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## lesofprimus (May 26, 2005)

OK erich, ill break ur post down alittle....



> all the time you spent on these minature bio's is really worthless.


I do not agree... Any info that I can pass on to other members who know alot about planes, but very little about the pilots who flew them, is info well served.....


> You cannot even compare US with German let alone British with Russian.


Hmmm..... I believe u can, if u look objectively... German pilots basically flew until they were incapable or dead.... No bond tours for them... Feats and Deeds of extroidinary heroism and talent in the cockpit were found on both sides of the War, Allied or Axis... (As u already know...)


> Great info though.....


Thank you, it took awhile, but I think this poll is the best one I have ever done....


> As I said the best bet would be to take 10 top aces of each country and then debate as to which is the best per nationality


If this was a WWII Aces site, i could probably see doing this, but seeing how there are just a few members here who really have enough information to break it down like u said, it would take far too long to get that kinda list together...


> Don't let this be offensive


It isnt, and was never implied as such.......


> Even some of the heavy German hitters listed I would not vote for as 3/4r's of their kills were early war when the pickins were easy


I agree 100%...


> Marseilles 17 kills is not confirmed with British-Austrailian confirmation/losses listings


This is true, but then again, its not like he would have lied about it....


> Priller basically in 1945 was removed from the war as Geschwader Kommodore


Which was a shame, but probably saved his life (throughout the war) in the long run...

Erich and I have alot of similar opinions, and this is why I feel that Ivan Kozhedub was the Greatest Fighter Pilot in WWII.... Propaganda aside, which I do not hold much water with (concerning Kozhedub atleast), he stayed alive FAAAARRRR longer than 90 % of his comrades, in an inferior plane, against some of the best pilots in the world, in the harshest of conditions......


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## FLYBOYJ (May 26, 2005)

Erich said:


> As I said the best bet would be to take 10 top aces of each country and then debate as to which is the best per nationality.



This would of been cool, maybe in the future!

For right now I say "Let it ride" and see the results


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## cheddar cheese (May 26, 2005)

Well After about, ooooo a minute or so of thinking I plumped for Priller. So close to clicking McGuire or Pokryshkin though.


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## mosquitoman (May 26, 2005)

I went for Pat Pattle- not many pilots can score 25 kills in a Gladiator


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## Erich (May 26, 2005)

Freidn Willi Unger or Oskar Bösch

ooops they aren't listed and no night fighter aces either who may possibly be the best fighter pilots during the war.

Peter Spoden, Klaus Scheer, Heinz Rökker, Paul Zorner, and the listing can go on.....I know these guys and they went through hell along with their crews


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## lesofprimus (May 27, 2005)

I had Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer and his 121 NF kills on the last poll and he didnt get any votes erich... I believe that those NF guys were just not as popular.... Not too much dogfighting going on in the dark..........


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## FLYBOYJ (May 27, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> I had Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer and his 121 NF kills on the last poll and he didnt get any votes erich... I believe that those NF guys were just not as popular.... Not too much dogfighting going on in the dark..........



You know Les, you're probably right, once they got vectored to a target, I guess it was just "Blast and Dash."


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## lesofprimus (May 27, 2005)

Im sure with erich research tho, he's heard a thing or 2 on the contrary.........


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## FLYBOYJ (May 28, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> Im sure with erich research tho, he's heard a thing or 2 on the contrary.........



Dude, that siggy, well....


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## lesofprimus (May 28, 2005)

Its one of the funniest pics Ive ever seen... I still laugh when i see it......... The thing is, the pic was labeled "Supertard.jpg"

First time i saw it, I pulled an evangilder and spit rootbeer all over my keyboard....


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## Erich (May 28, 2005)

geezo Les not sure if I can write anything or not with the pic below your posting.....

ok I'm going to get a grip

Schnaufer was just one of many of the night fighter boyz used on a lesser propaganda level for the Reich. sure the day fighter boys got much of the publicity since this is when the Germans could see whom was attacking them. The prime reason why the paper headlined the day fighter force in der Adler mag, etc.....


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## lesofprimus (May 28, 2005)

> geezo Les not sure if I can write anything or not with the pic below your posting.....


Is that because its funny, or is it offending u??? If its offensive, please let me know..... Remember, the little guy is very proud of his new costume, and posed as "Supertard" because he wanted to...

I think Marseille and his kill totals are misleading.. Yea the guy was skilled. But against what kinda aircraft??? P-40's?????

Comeon....... Yea he bagged some Spits and Canes, but the majority were Hawks...

I think this poll should come down to 4 guys....
Bär
Kozhedub
Nishizawa
Pattle

Obviously, my opinion seems to be off from this boards somewhat... Hehe....... Thats the beauty of opinions, huh Skimmer????


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## Erich (May 28, 2005)

Les I am not on the personal level but wonder if any new member who might have a friend of the familie or a relative..........well you understand what I am trying to say.

You foursome is pretty good. Preddy might be right up there to as the top Mustang ace in the ETO or Gabreski of the 56th fg flying the P-47. Bong ?


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## Nonskimmer (May 28, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> Thats the beauty of opinions, huh Skimmer????


Absolutely.

And why does everybody call me "Skimmer"?


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## trackend (May 28, 2005)

I don't I call you Skim unless you would prefer Nons but that's very close to sounding like nonce which is (in the UK) the same as a Ponce or a Prat
so you'll just have to put up with me calling you Skim  

Les your new Sig although really funny (I fell of me PC seat and hurt me backside) does have the possibility to offend a person who has a Downs Syndrome child or relative having them referred to as a retard isn't very nice even if the guy in the pic takes no offense himself. That's not to say as you said the guy was really happy to show off his neat looking outfit and most of the people I know with this complaint are among the most content girls and guys you could find around. 
That little waffle was a bit heavy even for me sorry guys.


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## Nonskimmer (May 28, 2005)

trackend said:


> I don't I call you Skim unless you would prefer Nons but that's very close to sounding like nonce which is (in the UK) the same as a Ponce or a Prat
> so you'll just have to put up with me calling you Skim


Works for me, matey. It's not like I really care anyway.


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## lesofprimus (May 28, 2005)

The American Aces, while competent and skilled, just didnt face enough adversity as some of these other guys...... They really didnt get in enough combat engagements for me to really qualify them... 

The Mass-Assault tactics that the 8th used to blot the Luftwaffe from the skies really doesnt show me much, except that Gabreski and Preddie were great at picking out their targets in a melee, and that their gunnery was above average....

They were great pilots no doubt, but they really didnt "Shine"..... Gabby was the American Leading Ace in Europe, and only had 28 kills, while Johnnie Johnson had 38 and Paddy had 32... I would rate those 2 guys higher than the Americans... Higher class of competition, with alot of the greater Luftwaffe Aces still airborn and flying sorties everyday.....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 29, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> lesofprimus said:
> 
> 
> > Thats the beauty of opinions, huh Skimmer????
> ...



i don't, i call you skimmey


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## Nonskimmer (May 29, 2005)

Pet names don't really count.  


:-"


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## Erich (May 30, 2005)

hmmmmmmm not real sure Les if I agree about lesser numbers of aces confronting the US fly boyz. 
the Germans being against the 8th AF was not a cake walk as they have said it was easy to punch out Soviet flyers, US was another story though far easier to acheive a kill as there were so many targets available.


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## Bushranger (Jun 1, 2005)

> I think Marseille and his kill totals are misleading.. Yea the guy was skilled. But against what kinda aircraft??? P-40's?????



I wouldn't doubt the P-40 so much. I vite for Clive Caldwell, altough he's not on the list. Here's some reasons why:
-Downing 5 bombers in one engagement:
"I received radio warning that a large enemy formation was approaching from the north-west. No 250 Squadron went into line astern behind me and as No 112 Squadron engaged the escorting fighters we attacked the JU's from the rear quarter. At 300 yards I opened fire with all my guns at the leader of one of the rear sections of three, allowing little deflection and hit No.2 and No.3, one of which burst into flames immediately, the other going down smoking...I then attacked the leader of the rear section from below and behind, opening fire with all guns at very close range. The enemy aircraft turned over and dived steeply...I opened on another again at close range, then enemy caught fire and crashed in flames.

-Caldwell shot down Marseille:
On 21 February 1942, one of the Luftwaffe's most successful desert fighter pilots Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt was shot down in flames by Clive Caldwell. 
A quote from Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt (59 Victories). 
"One of the leading Kittyhawks (Caldwell) had suddenly pulled up into a vertical position, hung briefly on it's propeller and fired just one burst".

A quote from Hans-Joachim Marseille (158 Victories) who witnessed Caldwell's adventurous attack. 
"It was a fabulous shot".

A quote from Bobby Gibbes (10 Victories)
"I saw what you were trying to do but never thought you could do it".

-Surviving 109's
While flying top cover for supply planes inbound for Tobruk, two Bf-109's led by the 114-victory ace Werner Schroer ambushed him. The German planes punched 108 machine gun bullets and five 20mm shells into the hapless fighter, damaging its instrument panel, controls, tail, wings, and wounding Caldwell in the back, shoulder and leg.

Instead of crashing to the ground, the Tomahawk managed to stay airborne. And instead of attempting to escape, the Sydney-born Caldwell turned into his attackers and returned fire. He shot down Schroer's wingman, unnerving Schroer to the point that he ran for home. The Australian ace made it home.


...All with 'just a P40'


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## Bushranger (Jun 1, 2005)

Also, Willaim Whisner

USAAF ace for two wars, recipient of three DSC


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## lesofprimus (Jun 1, 2005)

Dude the P-40 was a piece of crap.. The pilots that sometimes had the horrible luck to have to fly the P-40 sometimes were a different story......



> unnerving Schroer to the point that he ran for home.


Thats a bunch of crap... I doubt seriously that that was the case......


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## Bushranger (Jun 2, 2005)

Well, if the P40 was so crap, how come Schroer didn't shoot him down there and then?


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## lesofprimus (Jun 2, 2005)

Something called pilot skill........ How did so many Finnish pilots shoot down Bf-109's in their Brewster Buffalos???

Pilot skill....... A great pilot can make a POS fly like the wind.......

Like i stated above, maybe Schroer was bingo fuel and had to make it back to his lines.....


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## Bushranger (Jun 2, 2005)

True. Pilot skill. Isn't this what the poll is about?


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## lesofprimus (Jun 2, 2005)

UMMMM yea....... But u commented on my comment concerning the -40.... To me someone shooting down 50 P-40's is not as impressive as someone shooting down 50 Spitfires, pilot skill or not....

And the P-40 was a piece of shiit dude..... No one will deny that, except u maybe.....


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jun 2, 2005)

Marsielle.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 2, 2005)

Speaking of someone who shot down a crapload of shiitass planes, Marseille wins the top prize........


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 2, 2005)

I don't know Les, I really wouldn't call the P-40 a total piece of crap, maybe a little sh*tty. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to face an ME-109 or a -190 in one, but the "Tigers" did do well with it, but as you pointed out earlier, "PILOT SKILL."

Many Commonwealth nations used the P-40 and it served them well. In the ground support role, it did well considering it was available in numbers. From what I understand, it was easy to maintain, easy to fix (I know, it probably had a lot of holes to patch up) and had a huge logistic support network. I don't know, if I had a choice between a P-40 and a P-39, I think I would go for the 40.

You know maybe that's a good idea for a new topic?!? "If you had to fly a piece of crap, which one would you fly?"


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 2, 2005)

Do it, FBJ! I bet it'll be an interesting topic.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 2, 2005)

Im exaggerating slightly to make my point...


> I don't know, if I had a choice between a P-40 and a P-39, I think I would go for the 40.


I agree...


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## Erich (Jun 2, 2005)

by the way Marseille shot down 76 P-40's.

what the heck is a P-46 as this craft was opposed by I./JG 27 pilots in Afrika ?

Marseille though was a brilliant deflection shot but personally he would of been KIA in the Reichsverteidigung with his gruppe....


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 2, 2005)

Erich said:


> what the heck is a P-46 as this craft was opposed by I./JG 27 pilots in Afrika ?



Do you mean a P-36?


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## Erich (Jun 2, 2005)

no, P-46 as it is listed in the German Abschüsse listings. U maybe right about a P-36 but this is what they have written down. quite a few claimed by the I./JG 27 Afrika boyz


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 2, 2005)

Erich said:


> no, P-46 as it is listed in the German Abschüsse listings. U maybe right about a P-36 but this is what they have written down. quite a few claimed by the I./JG 27 Afrika boyz



The RAF decided that its Mohawks were not suitable for the European theater, and sent 72 of them to the South African Air Force where they were flown by the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Squadrons which operated in East Africa. Perhaps this explains these claims?


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## Erich (Jun 2, 2005)

that probably is correct....

I./JG 27 claimed :

262 P-40's

37 P-46's

this for their time in Afrika till November 15, 1942, when Fw. Gustav Sturm shot down a B-24 for his 1st victory south of El Agheila and the last of the I. gruppe in Afrika, returned to the West and fighting in March of 43 against RAF and US forces over France.


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## Erich (Jun 2, 2005)

side note : 263 P-40's claimed by II./JG 27 while in Afrika


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## Bushranger (Jun 3, 2005)

> And the P-40 was a piece of shiit dude..... No one will deny that, except u maybe.....



I agree, to an extent. It definitely wasn't the best fighter available, but it was the most [i[most[/i] available. And it got the job done, if it was THAT bad it would have been withdrawen.


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## plan_D (Jun 3, 2005)

The Mohawk was a great aircraft, the only problem was that it was a little slow. The P-40 wasn't a good aircraft, it was just in high supply and in 1940-'42 the RAF was using anything and everything they could get their hands on. 

In the hands of the right pilot it was good. The AVG performed almost miracles in those things.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 3, 2005)

plan_D said:


> The Mohawk was a great aircraft, the only problem was that it was a little slow. The P-40 wasn't a good aircraft, it was just in high supply and in 1940-'42 the RAF was using anything and everything they could get their hands on.
> 
> In the hands of the right pilot it was good. The AVG performed almost miracles in those things.



Hey D - here's a great site on the Mohawk:

http://curtisshawk75.bravepages.com/


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## lesofprimus (Jun 3, 2005)

Guys, ur kinda getting confused here... For theatrics, I am over-embelishing the lack luster performance of the P-40 Warhawk... Yea, Chenault and his boys, including Boyington, did a good job fighting the Japanese, when the Japanese had a huge advantage....

But what really set those guys apart from the Japs was the tactics.... Chenault was a God back then..... And he knew his shiit....

I remember, in Boyingtons book, he tells a story about how Chenault had the Tigers all lined up, comin outta the sun, as the Japs attacked their field.... Boyington wanted to drop in on em, but Chenault said wait wait wait..... Finally after they were done strafing and whatnot, he orders the bounce........

Zeros with no ammo and on bingo fuel......... How lucious is that meal????

They tore em to pieces....

The -40 was an ok plane that was produced in WAAAYYYY too many #'s.... Same as the P-39...... A POS as well.... But look how some of the Russians did flying that crate......... They used superb tactics as well.....

ANyways...... The -40 was outclassed in every theatre of the War..... That some were able to achieve success in it proves tactics and pilot skill DO matter....


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 3, 2005)

YEP - AGREED TOTALY DUDE!


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 4, 2005)

Also, the P-39 and P-40 were designed to the same specification as the P-38...and look how much better the P-38 was.


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## plan_D (Jun 4, 2005)

I couldn't agree more, les. That is an amazing site, FB. The Hawk-75 is well under-rated.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 5, 2005)

Get the Magazine (I think its Wings) were Steve Hinton gives his review on the Hawk-75. Amazing it took 65 years to realize this!


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## Blitzkrieg Bop (Jun 5, 2005)

Frank Versteegh just simply is the best!


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## marseille jr (Jun 5, 2005)

i read this on the internet:

Every great ace has his own distinct style. Hans-Joachim Marseille had his deflection shot at unbelievable angles, Erich Hartmann would have his 'close-range' shot. The strategy whereby you come so close to the enemy aircraft,' that your canopy glass fills with the enemy craft's mass,' and then you fire. Hartmann would become legendary for this tactic. Making him the highest scoring German Ace with 352 kills of all kinds of aircraft. The only other fighter pilot really worth mentioning with Hartmann would have to be Hans-Joachim Marseille, the 'Star of Africa'. The controversy comes into play because of those who consider 3 Russian fighter planes being equal to one western-flown fighterplane. That being so then one is tempted to name Marseille with his 158kills( all against British aircraft) as the premiere fighter pilot.

Hence, as marseille was only 22 when he died, shot down over 150 aircraft within a year without being shot down himself, shot down 17 in one day, shot down some in one sortie with just two 7.62mm's, outturned spits in his bf 109 and so on , I think it's rightful to call him the best deflection shooter and (dog)fighter pilot of WWII.


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## Erich (Jun 5, 2005)

sorry but Heinz Bär could outdo either one of the greats you posted


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## lesofprimus (Jun 5, 2005)

I agree erich... Im not really sure shooting down hapless Brits in their P-40's and 16 year old Russian kids flying wooden planes counts as being the best...... Bar fought EVERYWHERE, in EVERY front.... And dominated in each Theatre...


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## plan_D (Jun 5, 2005)

He wasn't a great fighter pilot as such but I think Hubert Zemke was an amazing flight leader. I'm reading 'Zemke's Stalag' at the moment and although it's primarily about his time in Stalagluft I it gives little bits of information of his fighting career and also the such dedication and leadership abilities he had. 

In anything about pilots I think he would always deserve a mention as the leader of the greatest collection of U.S fighter pilots in the ETO, the 56th FG.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 5, 2005)

Zemke was a great pilot, and a greater leader... A tough sumbitch... He knocked down his share of enemy planes...


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## evangilder (Jun 5, 2005)

Zemke's Wolfpack are famous, or notorious, whichever you choose! But he was an amazing guy. I think he was one of those leaders you would follow to the gates of hell itself.


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## plan_D (Jun 5, 2005)

Some of the stories from "The Hub's" war after he was shot down are just as amazing as those from in his cockpit.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 5, 2005)

Another one was Col. Glenn Eagleson - I've seen him on documentaries, crusty but real funny!


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## Erich (Jun 5, 2005)

I knew Hub, and interesting character.........just like Gabby Gabreski


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## lesofprimus (Jun 5, 2005)

I've met Gabby before, awhile back, but never met Zemke.. Heard some great stories about him, some true, some 60 years old... Hehe..


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## evangilder (Jun 5, 2005)

Great way to put that, Les.


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## marseille jr (Jun 6, 2005)

heinz bar got shot down "only" 18 times ... what rules him out definitively of this discussion. Only marseille, bartels, Lang or Nowotny can be considered as true contenders for the title of best german fighter pilot ever. My opinion is that marseille, the UNRIVALLED virtuoso, wins.

Too bad Schnauffer is not considered here. Scoring 120+ victories at night is dazzling. He still is a notority in my home town among old people (sint-truiden - he was called the ghost of sint-truiden - also emil Lang crashed lost his life here)


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## lesofprimus (Jun 6, 2005)

> heinz bar got shot down "only" 18 times ... what rules him out definitively of this discussion.


How do u figure??? He fought on all fronts, flew all different aircraft, fought against everything the allies could through at him, and survived being shot down 18 times. Most pilots dont survive 1 shoot down...

Think about the different tactics he had to combat against... The different climates.... How many times was he outnumbered in the sky 6 to 1??? And he never perished.........

To me thats the sign of a great pilot, not someone who shoots down Scores of P-40 Warhawks.... Thats definatly a gunnery challenge there....

Not..

BTW, Rudorffer and Schnaufer were on an earlier poll, but didnt recieve any votes.......


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## Erich (Jun 6, 2005)

true enough Marseille was the star of Afrika and shot down 76 P-40's..........big deal ! I know for a fact he was an excellent deflection shooter. His claims of 17 kills in one day is still suspect.

Heinz lived through the war and flew a variety of a/c much more than the pilots you mentioned who all fell for Germany .. Rudorffers jet kill claims are not verified. when asked about them he conveniently has shut up although he was more than open to talk about his days at the last when he was to form IV./JG 7 and co-exist with the night jet unit Kommando Welter.....it's all in our book.

My billing still goes with Heinz Bär, serving on all the fronts and taking out multiple 4 engine bombers, fighters, recon, twin engine........you name it.


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## marseille jr (Jun 6, 2005)

"survived being shot down 18 times"

ok, let's call him the luckiest fighter pilot of all times then. Luck and quality are different though. I do pay my dues to bär, one of the top pilots of all times ... but he was lucky numerous times, he arrived with a pretty badly shot up aircraft many times and was downed 18 times ... during jochens 150 streak he was not downed once. And yes, lotsa tomahawks/kittyhawks, but more than 20 spits as well and lotsa hurries. Usually with no more than 15 rounds (!!!) on average in the end. Only a couple were bombers ... again this testifies how good he was, as 99% of his kills were fighter planes shot down in close combat (furballs) with much more nimble aircraft then his own friedrich, and vastly outnumbered. However, I do surmise that marseille wouldn't have survived the war ... I think he would have been transferred to Russia had he survived his technical "gustav" failure, bagging some 150-200 aircraft over there before returning to germany to deal with usaf bombers. I don't think his extremely individual style would have served him well there against mustangs and tempests. Maybe his unsurpassable deflection shooting would have done miracles in an me-262?

What about Otto Kittel? If my memory serves me well, he had never been bested in aerial combat during his 267 victories, except from the sturmo's rear gunner's bullet which killed him? Bad luck. That is worth mentioning too, no?

Anyway, all in all, is it really possible to bestow this kind of title upon people in these circumstances? After all, these are all just opinions, conjecture, wishes. I think no one can be the best in all areas. Marseille is unsurpassable in close dogfights but i don't think he would have stayed alive long against the americans in a bf 109, what for example Bär did . All of these guys were craftsman, virtuosos and artists. Determining which of them was the ultimate pilot is impossible.

The pic is the bu-mann (kurt bühligen). Underappreciated in my opinion. Anyone knows what happened to him after WWII ?


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## plan_D (Jun 6, 2005)

Getting shot down means nothing. There's always times of bad luck. Why not mention Hartmann in that list of those not hit anyway, since he never crashed due to enemy action. 

It also depends on your aircraft, Hubert Zemke came home no less than 12 times with damage to his aircraft. Probably damage that would have brought down any other fighter but he was in a Jug!


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## marseille jr (Jun 6, 2005)

"Getting shot down means nothing. There's always times of bad luck. Why not mention Hartmann in that list of those not hit anyway, since he never crashed due to enemy action"

Getting shot down means a lot. One wrong bullet and one's history. Never getting shot down whilst plenty of shooting down yourself is a major and rare achievement. And yes, hartmann deserves mentioning here, as does Kittel and Marseille.


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## marseille jr (Jun 6, 2005)

155 24.6.1944 7:18	P-51 9./JG 54 Évreux
156 24.6.1944 7:19	P-51 9./JG 54 Évreux
157 24.6.1944 7:21	P-51 9./JG 54 Évreux
158 24.6.1944 7:22	P-51 9./JG 54 Évreux

This is not bad hu for a fw-190A?
Achieved by the man who nailed 18 in one day


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## Erich (Jun 6, 2005)

18.............maybe

Lang was good with III./JG 54 during the Normandie battles as III./JG 54 was the top scoring Luftw. outift there with over 100 victories

lets look at this whole picture in another way. What is listed as to pilots should be commented on and not others brought into the fray such as Lang or Kittel. I can think of some personal friends whom ought to be listed both US and German but they won't. Because of popularity back home and the myths surrounding many to this day, the pilot with the most victories from any side of the conflict is always chosen as the "greatest" pilot.

what nonsense..........


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## plan_D (Jun 6, 2005)

Being shot down can sometimes be unavoided, it's called luck. For example being hit by AA is bad luck, you can't avoid it. All you can do is hope that it doesn't get you. 

In a dogfight it's extremely hard to keep your eye on every single plane in the sky. There might be a stray stream of bullets that hits your aircraft. Not being shot is a rare achievement, but it's also luck because those people who never got shot down I can assure you got shot up, their aircraft just happened to hold together.


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## marseille jr (Jun 6, 2005)

"There might be a stray stream of bullets that hits your aircraft. Not being shot is a rare achievement, but it's also luck because those people who never got shot down I can assure you got shot up, their aircraft just happened to hold together"

Do i detect wishful thinking here? sure it's partially luck, and partially prowess. Of course, a stray stream can always hit but will rarely tear up a plane. If someone is at the tail and you can't shake him off ...well down you go amidst wreckage... when you are able to either avoid someone at your tail (a la hartmann) or shake-him-off/outmanoeuver him (a la marseille), well that is called bein a class act.

I agree with the one who claimed people always look at numbers. Hartmann was a master, but I feel that the lead he has in the poll on other pilots is unrightful.


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## plan_D (Jun 6, 2005)

No, I'm realistic. Being able to shake your enemy is one thing, it's not always a case of seeing your enemy though. You cannot act for yourself in combat, pilots act for one another. Single combat was not an act taken part in, in any air force except the Japanese. 

Most of the time you're relying on your squadron, and more closely your wingman. If they fail, the odds are you're going to get shot up.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 6, 2005)

OK, ive missed out on some of the story here, so ill back track some...

Bar flew a different kind of combat style, as oppsosed to The Hartmanns and the Marseilles' and the Wahtnots.... He wasnt a lone wolf... He flew in some engagements where there were so many planes in the sky, on fire/smoking/firing, that the chances of being bounced were unreal...

Thats what its all about guys..... Most of the times Bar was shot down, he was bounced..... I remember reading where Heinz Bar had lost several wingmen who were just blotted out of the sky......

There are a handful of guys, countem on 1 hand, who killed the ALL the best Allied Fighters in the World... Bar is one of em...

I rate Bar being the better fighter pilot over Kozhedub and Nishizawa... (The more u research, the more u learn...)


> I can think of some personal friends whom ought to be listed both US and German but they won't.


I could list my Grandfather, who I believe was unreal in a Corsair, but I wont..... Lang and Kittel were on a previous Poll and recieved 2 votes... COMBINED...

Point is, if u survived long enough in the air, u were great... Lucky/Superb/Gifted/Mean... Those qualities, and more, made all these guys stand out from the rest... Some guys had bad luck, but were lucky enough to survive the Chute/Crash.....

Most guys werent...

And we recognize their combined greatness with polls and discussions like these...


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 6, 2005)

Plan D is rolling down the right track. Sure, there is an element of being able to avoid risk, if from the ground or air-to-air, but all of these great pilots we're talking about here fought within "a well oiled machine" with a lot of teamwork and discipline. I think what takes it to the next step is the legacy left behind. Bar Commanded JV-44 "The Squadron of Experts" and that in itself puts him a step above. He flew, developed the first jet tactics and walked away as a triple ace, to me that shows not only skill but innovativiness and super-human leadership!

By the way by his own modesty when interviewed in the post war years, he felt Hartmann and Marseille were the "best."


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## lesofprimus (Jun 6, 2005)

If he couldnt vote for himself, modesty aside, could u see him picking a Non-German??? LOL...


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 6, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> If he couldnt vote for himself, modesty aside, could u see him picking a Non-German??? LOL...



NO WAY!


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## hasse (Jun 8, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> Something called pilot skill........ How did so many Finnish pilots shoot down Bf-109's in their Brewster Buffalos???
> 
> Hello every1.
> Im new in here, so sry all, if i dont do everything right. I found this site yesterday, so im not yet familiar with all this
> ...


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## lesofprimus (Jun 8, 2005)

Why is it that all our Finnish members that have ever replied to a thread such as this, always vote for Juutulainen???

He was a great pilot, and did some great things in some really outdated aircraft....... No doubt about his skill.....

And WELCOME hasse....


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## evangilder (Jun 8, 2005)

Welcome hasse!


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 8, 2005)

Welcome Hasse!


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## marseille jr (Jun 8, 2005)

> By the way by his own modesty when interviewed in the post war years, he felt Hartmann and Marseille were the "best.



modesty? ... that's ... brains 8)



> The more u research, the more u learn...



And the more on gets stuck in his own opinions and refuses to look at it from another way. The most important scientific laws were all devised by scientists in their young and fresh years. I won't doubt researching, but it is a bit on the ambivalent side in this matter ... this ain't physics or mathematics. I've read opinions of many other "specialists", always Marseille, Hartmann or Nishizawa pop up there.



> Point is, if u survived long enough in the air, u were great



Yeah right. If one flies a poorly contrived aircraft and the wing falls of suddenly or the landing gear comes out (happened to Lang) during a dogfight ...you end up dead, even when named Marseille or Bär or Von Richthofen.


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## plan_D (Jun 8, 2005)

Zemke got his P-51's wing sheared off by a storm, did he die? No.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 8, 2005)

marseille jr said:


> modesty? ... that's ... brains 8)
> 
> 
> > No, it's modesty, graciousness and a sign of true leadership.


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## Erich (Jun 8, 2005)

give it up ............ it's Heinz Bär !


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## lesofprimus (Jun 8, 2005)

> Quote:
> The more u research, the more u learn...
> 
> And the more on gets stuck in his own opinions and refuses to look at it from another way.


Are u calling me a moron??? With 12 posts under ur belt, thats about the biggest mistake u could make here.... 


> The most important scientific laws were all devised by scientists in their young and fresh years.


WTH does that have to do with researching a pilots accomplishments in WWII???


> I've read opinions of many other "specialists", always Marseille, Hartmann or Nishizawa pop up there.


Im not talking about "opinions", im talking about documented evidence of Heinz Bars' accomplishments in the pilot seat.....


> this ain't physics or mathematics.


No shiit....


> Quote:
> Point is, if u survived long enough in the air, u were great
> 
> Yeah right. If one flies a poorly contrived aircraft and the wing falls of suddenly or the landing gear comes out (happened to Lang) during a dogfight ...you end up dead, even when named Marseille or Bär or Von Richthofen.


Ur obviously trying to make a point there, but damn if i cant see it... Ur trying to compare faulty aircraft and bad luck to pilot skill??? 

Are u actually implying that the guys who flew combat missions for years and years werent all great pilots???


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## marseille jr (Jun 8, 2005)

> Are u actually implying that the guys who flew combat missions for years and years werent all great pilots???



on the contrary, I contend that some of them died before they could prove how great they were. Lang scored roughly 100 victories in two months time, including many p47 and p51 when suddenly in a dogfight his undercarriage fell out ... I mean, if his plane had been well contrived, who knows where he might have ended the war ... he didn't got the chance and not because HE made a mistake. That's my point here.



> No, it's modesty, graciousness and a sign of true leadership.



and knowing it's place in history all too well ... If he really was so much better I don't see a reason why he would have belyingly claimed Hartmann Or Jochen being better ??



> Are u calling me a moron??? With 12 posts under ur belt, thats about the biggest mistake u could make here....



First and foremost I'm calling nobody a moron here and secondly, even hartmann had to start with his 1st victory and then his 2nd .... his 12th, .... to quote the legendary (american) phil ochs : 'let's not be narrow minded americans here'. Everyone is entitled to make a stand here right? 



> Im not talking about "opinions", im talking about documented evidence of Heinz Bars' accomplishments in the pilot seat.....



...as if those 'other' opinions would be mere conjecture... Come on. It seems Bär has gotten his fair share of fans in here .... 



> give it up ............ it's Heinz Bär !



It's Marseille Sr. Even Bär himself admitted it.
Amen


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## Erich (Jun 8, 2005)

kinda funny you keep posting pics of Rudi

yes Bär was a mild mannered man but a killer in the air. At least Bär was not egotistical as Marseille and many others. Bär wins by a landslide.

enough of this thread get on to some other threads and post


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## lesofprimus (Jun 8, 2005)

> on the contrary, I contend that some of them died before they could prove how great they were.


I totally agree with u 100%, but please state it that ur original post, rather than making no sense...


> Everyone is entitled to make a stand here right?


Hell Freakin Yea u are.....................


> It's Marseille Sr. Even Bär himself admitted it.


No Gentleman or Great Military Leader would ever claim himself to be better than his peers...... Theres no honor in that... Honor the Dead...


> ...as if those 'other' opinions would be mere conjecture... Come on.


Since u havent done ur homework here, one of the more respected researchers in the world concerning the Luftwaffe happens to be involved in this discussion... Some of the stuff u have read concerning WWII aviation, he was responsible for researching...

Basically, I think u can take what erich says as the truth of the matter... It is after all an opinion, so really, who's opinion is wrong???


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## marseille jr (Jun 9, 2005)

> kinda funny you keep posting pics of Rudi



Lol. Them computer I'm currently using only has a few pics on the HD. Actually I almost ran out of pics. Time to land some new 



> yes Bär was a mild mannered man but a killer in the air. At least Bär was not egotistical as Marseille and many others. Bär wins by a landslide.



Marseille was an egotistical man in the air, that's right. But on the other hand, he did care about his men as well, a lot even. I also overtly admit that I don't believe he would have survived against the americans with this kind of individual behaviour. I accept that Bär, who was after all older and more mature/experienced, must have been a much completer pilot teamplayer, if less an artist/virtuoso. Knockin down half a dozen of byrds per sortie with unbelievable deflection shooting and averaging 15 bullets per kill without getting shot yourself at age 21/22 does earn him the titel of unrivalled virtuoso in the air though (opinion of another expert, Galland). Unrivalled means no one can surpass him right? I think they were both geniuses albeit different kind of pilots. Comparison is a bit false as Marseille never got the chance to fly reichsverteitigung (dunno if it's written correct) or an me-262 or a fw-190A. So we will never know how 'complete' he might have become ... after all, he "died but a kid".




> I totally agree with u 100%, but please state it that ur original post, rather than making no sense...



I did state that. Maybe it's my 'poor' english. I'm a non native english speaker as you might have noticed...



> Basically, I think u can take what erich says as the truth of the matter... It is after all an opinion, so really, who's opinion is wrong???



When einstein talked about relativity and mass-energy equivalence for the first time he was derided by ALL leading TOP scientists. I guess what you say to me was said to Einstein 1000 times back then. 40 years later hiroshima Nagasaki got a taste of relativity. I hope you get my point this time (= nobody is always right).

Hey Primus, isn't discussing what a thread is all about? So don't execute me pls  

btw the cockpit is a fw-190


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## Erich (Jun 9, 2005)

well in this I will agree with you.

Marseille had he been given the chance to fly a Bf 109G-6 or AS version or G-10, G-14 may very well have been overwhelmed and shot down by P-51 escorts. I could easily visualize his individual performane against 1 P-51 at a time but 6-10 would be different story. As well as flying a Kanonboot and flying in wedge formation something that would of been distasteful to one whom performed better without the wingman present 

literally I./JG 27, his gruppe was slaughtered several times over during the trying late 43 through all of 44 months: Reichsverteidigung

when I first got interested in Luftwaffe a/c, pilots and tactics in the early 1960's JG 27's presence in Afrika was the first on the top of my lists of interests.......


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## lesofprimus (Jun 9, 2005)

> Hey Primus, isn't discussing what a thread is all about? So don't execute me pls


Jesus Christ dude... YES IT IS......... Did u even bother to read my post above???


> Quote:
> 
> Everyone is entitled to make a stand here right?
> 
> ...





> It is after all an opinion, so really, who's opinion is wrong???





> I hope you get my point this time (= nobody is always right).


The point is u didnt make a point..... Einstein wasnt guessing, and it wasnt his opinion either... He was a scientist... This is not science...


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## plan_D (Jun 10, 2005)

An opinion cannot be wrong. An opinion is someone's feeling towards the matter, it's not information or facts. Therefore, it cannot be wrong. Einstein didn't have an opinion, he had a theory based upon facts.


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## marseille jr (Jun 10, 2005)

> Marseille had he been given the chance to fly a Bf 109G-6 or AS version or G-10, G-14 may very well have been overwhelmed and shot down by P-51 escorts. I could easily visualize his individual performane against 1 P-51 at a time but 6-10 would be different story. As well as flying a Kanonboot and flying in wedge formation something that would of been distasteful to one whom performed better without the wingman present



Exactly. With an inferior aircraft he would have to climb up to substantial altitude, tangle with the ennemy and return. I can envisage him being chased by p51 or p47's in a high speed dive and take hits... I'm sure he would have done miracles against 2 or 3 but against many more he would have succumbed sooner or later. At the end of his career in a close dogfight he often engaged 12 to 16 planes on his own and bring 4 or 5 down. But diving away from p51's or p47's isn't exactly dogfighting. But again, Jochen wasn't stupid. Maybe he would have set his personal ambitions aside ... He would have been 24/25 instead of 22. We'll never know what would have happened. Ah it's such a waste. He died in such a silly manner while he still had leaps of maturing ahead of him. RIP.



> An opinion cannot be wrong. An opinion is someone's feeling towards the matter, it's not information or facts. Therefore, it cannot be wrong. Einstein didn't have an opinion, he had a theory based upon facts.



Oh well. Opinions can be wrong. If my opinion is that hitler himself was the best fighter pilot ...well that is as wrong as wrong can be. Einstein's theory was largely based upon assumptions (amongst them that lightspeed was constant). Of course these brilliant assumptions turned out to be right, as a consequence of that his utmost brilliant theory as well. But this isn't the place to talk/discuss about quantummechanics or relativity. I know other sites for that ...


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## plan_D (Jun 10, 2005)

No, by saying that you think Hitler was the greatest fighter pilot ever would make you stupid. Opinions are normally backed up by facts, that's where the opinion comes from. The opinion itself cannot be wrong, the information that created that opinion can. 

Don't try and tell me about my own language.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 10, 2005)

> Don't try and tell me about my own language.


I dont know if that deserves a can or a kick......

Hmmmmmmmmmm...


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 10, 2005)

Yeah, I'd say that's a nutcracker.


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## marseille jr (Jun 10, 2005)

> The opinion itself cannot be wrong, the information that created that opinion can.



Opinions are always coloured by one's own tastes and preferences. Ever heard of a self fulfilling prophecy? Btw, not all info is clear and easy to understand. Different people do interprete information differently, and draw different conclusions. Some of those can be nonsense.

Easy to see why they called Lang 'bully (bulldog) ' right?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 11, 2005)

Well even though Hartmann is my favorite I have to go with Heinz Baer, Priller or Nowotny.


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## fukuto (Jun 17, 2005)

howdy boys,
i couldnt help get sucked into this thread after i voted. the one guy who was considered to be the best in the RAF at the time, the only allied pilot to outscore his axis counterpart it any theatre, was screwball beurling. 
http://www.acesofww2.com/Canada/aces/beurling.htm
In the air over Malta, the war in africa (and for much needed oil) was decided. Beurling was the top scorer with 28. his german top rival was Gerhard michalski with 26. Bar, who lead for a time in this theater, scored 5. the RAF boys in Malta were in for some serious fighting. always greatly outnumbered, malnourished and suffering from the "malta dog" this war during the siege was rough. it was known as the "most bombed place on earth". the german failure to smash malta was the true beginning of the end for the germans. Rommel was denied his much needed supplies and germany was deied its much needed oil. Galland said to hitler when asked why malta was not defeated,"the English fight well with their backs to the wall"
in malta there were no super-scorers, just lots of dieing. competition was too stiff.
Today, beurling is all but forgotten because of his "bad boy" ways and because he decided to fight for isreal in 1948 and its suspected by some that he was killed by the secret service while on ruete.
In any event, during the war, in the RAF anyway, it was generally felt that he was the best. best eyes, best shot, best pilot.

but, as far as the numbers go, how bout these arguments ?
hartmann - 352 kills in 1450 some mission
nowotny - 250 kills in 442 missions but earlier in the war
or the greatest mission/kill man of all
Gunther Scheel 71 in 70 missions

Hartmann though, man, never hit by another aircraft's bullets, never lost a wingman, fought day after day way outnumbered, 10 years in russian gulag, lived to tell !!
gotta be beurling or hartmann !


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 17, 2005)

Great stuff fukuto and welcome. Beurling - great pilot but a bit eccentric to say the least.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 17, 2005)

Welcome and great post. 

The one thing though is Rommel and the Afrika Korps in N. Afrika were not there for oil. If they were after oil they would have gone to the middle east. Basically they were there to help out the Italians and tie up the British so they could not be elsewhere.

I may be wrong but if I am correct there were aces that scored higher in the N. Afrika and Malta areas. For example:

Major Joachim Muenchenberg had 31 of his 102 kills were in this Theatre.

Major Werner Schroer had 61 kills.


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## ricardo (Jun 17, 2005)

> unnerving Schroer to the point that he ran for home.


Thats a bunch of crap... I doubt seriously that that was the case......[/quote]

Nouuuu.... Clive Caldwell as a fact DID NOT SHOT DOWN WERNER SCHROER'S WINGMAN... neither he scared Schroer to the point he ran for home. This is not the real story.

Clive Caldwell was attacked and his aircraft caught flames. He went down in a violent slip and then pull out and blacked out due to the recovering from the ensuing dive. His attackers disengage (Schroer and his wingman) and Schroer claimed a victory as he saw Caldwell's TOMAHAWK AK493 went down in flames.

When Caldwell recovered, he pulled up to bale out but the fire suddenly died out, so he decided to attempt a landing. On his way home he found some Bf109 so he climb and dive and shot down one of the enemies.

Please see OSPREY AIRCRAFT OF THE ACES #38 (TOMAHAWK AND KITTYHAWK ACES OF THE RAF AND COMMONWEALTH) page 12 13.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 19, 2005)

Osprey Books are not the best sources for information. Great pics though.


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## -JJH- (Jan 10, 2006)

Hey, where is Eino Ilmari Juutilainen? 

I'd say he should be up there too, after all he is Finnish Air Force top ace with 94 1/6 kills. He also flew both in Winter War and in Continuation War. In addition, no Russian pilot EVER managed to hit his aircraft, all damage that his aircraft suffered was by flak!  

-JJ-


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## Hunter368 (Jan 10, 2006)

Nice thread I was thinking of starting one just like it, now I don't I just have to read 6 pages and then I will post. Sweet, good job Les.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 11, 2006)

-JJH- said:


> Hey, where is Eino Ilmari Juutilainen?
> 
> I'd say he should be up there too, after all he is Finnish Air Force top ace with 94 1/6 kills. He also flew both in Winter War and in Continuation War. In addition, no Russian pilot EVER managed to hit his aircraft, all damage that his aircraft suffered was by flak!
> 
> -JJ-



Yes he was a great pilot, and he is very worth mentioning I just think that there are about 20 or more pilots that rank above him.


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## loomaluftwaffe (Jan 12, 2006)

I'd vote Molders, but i chose Cartman instead cos molders wasnt there.
or that Finnish pilot, the Juutilainen.

I read this thing on how finnish pilots were trained, it said that they would fly at very loose formations at an advantageous position then attack from nowhere... if u were a soviet pilot.


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## Truk (Jan 12, 2006)

Hartmann never lost a wingman - that alone is the reason he gets my vote.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 12, 2006)

I voted Hartmann but if I could vote twice the other guy would Heinz Bar.


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## Gnomey (Jan 12, 2006)

I have voted for Hartmann as well, not sure who would be second as there a lot of viable candidiates in my opinion.


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## Erich (Jan 12, 2006)

After looking over this lengthy thread for months I have have come to the conclusion in my opinion ................ none of the above


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 12, 2006)

Who would you vote for then Erich?


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## Erich (Jan 12, 2006)

I am still deciding, as it would probably be an unknown that served in the Reichsverteidigung in 44-45 and then posisbly the last stint on the Ost front against numerous Soviet a/c. possibly Oskar Romm but will have to think further on this ....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 12, 2006)

Ahh Osker Romm, with his 92 victories. He is not a bad choice. Most of victories were on the east front and being Il-2s.


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## Erich (Jan 12, 2006)

A SturmFw pilot in IV.Sturm/JG 3 and then as Gruppenkommandeur he was one of the leading scorers flying the Dora 9 on the Ost front. flew 3 different Doras of the Gruppenstab. A very gracious man with his knowledge and highly overlooked as one of Germany's best pilots


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## Erich (Jan 12, 2006)

another pic of him in dress tunic


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## Hunter368 (Jan 12, 2006)

Erich said:


> I am still deciding, as it would probably be an unknown that served in the Reichsverteidigung in 44-45 and then posisbly the last stint on the Ost front against numerous Soviet a/c. possibly Oskar Romm but will have to think further on this ....




Please explain Eric why him? He shot down 92 a/c "only" and 82 of those were in the east, 10 were western and 8 of those were bombers. I know more about the pilots then the planes (just my point of interest, I have always found the men more interesting then the machines). I do have my pick but I am still thinking about back and forth. I will decide soon. Eric you know that I highly respect your thoughts on anything to do with Germany but why are you considering Oskar?


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## syscom3 (Jan 12, 2006)

Shouldnt one way of determing who was the best among the aces is to compare their kill rate per sortie where combat occured?

Robert Johnson of the 56th FG had an impressive kill rate by itself and it compared among the best of the German pilots where anytime he got into a fight, he shot someone down.


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## Erich (Jan 12, 2006)

possibly in his honesty as a human being. He was not an overachiever meaning he did not bolster his score so he could be eleveated. total scores mean othing to me but tactics and where served and the giving of their stories openly and not hyped as some of the living aces have from both sides of the conflict. Oskar for one is credited with many kills on both fronts but also an associated number of different types of a/c. and also flying several a/c types which again proves his excellent mental state as a pilot. I truly believe had he been given the chance he would of proved himself quite able in the Me 262 and there are also several noted pilots of interest that flew in JG 7 that also flew prop drivens earlier in the war that are hardly even given credence. These latter pilots knew without doubt that every mission flown was suicide


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## lesofprimus (Jan 12, 2006)

To repeat my previous statement, Heinz Bar, IMO, was head and shoulders above the rest of the field...


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## Erich (Jan 12, 2006)

personally I can think of several friend/night fighter aces that were just as good but in engaging in a more complex and possibly dynamic way of fighting.

As I mentioned earlier today a total score no matter how high does not mean you are the best. In fact it must be regarded as who is ? probably cannot really be put in words. all the aces on the list via the first page deserve their recognition in the service of their country


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## lesofprimus (Jan 12, 2006)

Erich, I agree with u on the Nightfighters, some of them were truly excellent pilots...

But this is about fighter pilots, and sneaking up on an unsuspecting Lancaster at 1 o'clock in the morning isnt really about being a fighter pilot, just being an unbelieveable pilot... 

I dunno, reading about Schnaufer and his victories is truly a testament to the outstanding qualities of certain Nightfighter pilots, but to compare that to what Bar did in all the theatres that he operated in is like comparing Kiwi Fruit to Irish Soda Bread...

It all comes down to personal choice, and I dont think Hartmann and his target rich enviornment really proved all that much other than that there were alot of Russian fighters in the air....


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## Erich (Jan 12, 2006)

Les many of the nf's were first ZG FIGHTER PILOTS, and if you think about that come late war yes indeed there were combats with Mossies, Beaus and P-61's; turns circles, corkscrews and BLAM, someone has to fall or limp home hurt quite possibly with dead aboard. some of the nf cranked up hundreds of missions on both the western and eastern fronts, and then of all things, something that the day fighter boys did not have to do, but the nf's had to perform day time ground attack duties in slow moving twin engine fighters equipped with bombs knowing full well they could be taken out by Allied escorts, ground based Allied AA. compare that insanity with the German/US/RAF/or Soviet day fighters whom never had to perform stupid acts of flying night ground attack or evening missions. Obviously you can see the superior well roundedness of the nf individuals many of them coming from KG bomber gruppen flying day/night missions, outnumbered with horrid fighters flying overhead.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 14, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Shouldnt one way of determing who was the best among the aces is to compare their kill rate per sortie where combat occured?



I disagree because as Erich said maybe they were in just a target rich environment. You also have to look at the skill of the pilots they were flying against. I believe it comes down to skill and in my opinion that goes to Heinz Bar like Les said. The man was a great pilot.


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## Hunter368 (Jan 20, 2006)

Ok here is my thoughts on it.

Galland-Great leader pilot, all his kills in the west (104) including 7 in the ME 262. Not bad

Molders-Another great leader pilot, 115 kills total (33 in the east), a real innovator in tactics and a inspiration to his men.

Hartmann-A real inspiration to his men, started later in the war when Russian pilots were not so easy to kill, never lost a wing-man. He has real situational awareness in battle to never to lose a wing-man. More kills than anyone else 352 kills all in the east. A real hunter in the skies.

Heinz Baer-220 kills (79 kills in east, rest in the west) He served in France, BoB, East, North Africa, Mediterranean, Western fronts. Alot of pilots excelled on one front and when transferred to another front they had trouble, he never suffered that problem, he excelled on every front. Shot down 16 4 engine bombers, 16 with ME262. This man went from start to finish and did it all on all fronts. He was shot down 18 times during the war.

Erich Rudorffer-222 kills (136 kills in the east, rest in the west only slightly less in the west than Baer) He served in North Africa, France, BoB, Western fronts. Like Baer alot of pilots excelled on one front and when transferred to another front they had trouble, he never suffered that problem, he excelled on every front. Shot down 10 4 engine bombers, 12 with the ME262. This man started in 1940 and when to the end and did it all on all fronts. He was shot down 16 times during the war.

Who is the greatest in my mind? Difficult choice but I think it comes down to two....Baer and Rudorffer in my mind. The others are great also but I think it is almost a tie between Baer and Rudorffer their careers almost mirror each other, kills on each front almost exactly the same. In the end I have to call the greatest ever would be Baer by a hair over Rudorffer.


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## kiwimac (Jan 22, 2006)

Hartmann for me.

Kiwimac


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 22, 2006)

I go for Baer and Hartmann, allways have and allways will. Hartmann being my favorite and Baer being the best in my opinoin and second favorite. Good annalysis up there also Hunter.


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## Hunter368 (Jan 22, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I go for Baer and Hartmann, allways have and allways will. Hartmann being my favorite and Baer being the best in my opinoin and second favorite. Good annalysis up there also Hunter.




Thanks, Baer and Rudorffer are basically close to a tie but I have to give it to Baer for a few small reasons.

1) Baer missed action on two different times (for a prolonged time) due to injuries. So he still amassed the totals that he did with missing time.
2) Baer started in 1939, Rudorffer in 1940, both lasted until wars end. So Baer was a true first to last and survived longer. (by a hair true)
3)Baer shot down 16 4 engine bombers to Rudorffer's 10 4 engine bombers. Charging into those bombers must of been like charging into the gates of hell.
4)Baer shot down 16 planes in the ME262 compared to Rudorffer's 12 kills. Baer's 16 kills in the ME262 made him the leading jet ace in WW2 and also until 1973 the leading jet ace of all nations.

Thats why I name Baer best ace of all time.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 23, 2006)

My personal top are:

1. Hartmann
2. Baer
3. Nowotney
4. Galland

Baer for though is the over all fighter pilot of the war.


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## Hunter368 (Jan 23, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> My personal top are:
> 
> 1. Hartmann
> 2. Baer
> ...



Very good pics also.


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## CurzonDax (Jan 23, 2006)

My question is this, without again sound pro-US, but its a question I have always had since a child. Why does everyone seem to forget the US aces. While I did vote for Hartmann, my fav Luftwaffe ace, is that US aces are not as romantic or didn't shoot down a million planes. I hope I don't sound pissy, cause I am not, its just I have been curious since a child.

My top 10 in no particuar order:
1. Gregory "Pappy" Boyington
2. Chuck Yeager
3. Hubert Zemke
4. Francis "Gabby" Gabresky
5. Tommy Blackburn
6. Tex Hill
7. Bud Mahurin
8. George Welch
9. Joe Foss
10. Butch O'Hare

:{)


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## lesofprimus (Jan 23, 2006)

> Baer's 16 kills in the ME262 made him the leading jet ace in WW2 and also until 1973 the leading jet ace of all nations.


If I'm not mistaken, there were a couple of Russians and 1 American in Korea that scored 16 or more kills in Korea.... Joseph McConnell had 16 kills by 5/18/1953, with the Top Scorers being Evgeni Pepelyaev and Nick Sutyagin with 23 kills....

And once again for the record, Heinz Baer in my book is just about unmatched in this catagory....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 23, 2006)

CurzonDax said:


> My question is this, without again sound pro-US, but its a question I have always had since a child. Why does everyone seem to forget the US aces. While I did vote for Hartmann, my fav Luftwaffe ace, is that US aces are not as romantic or didn't shoot down a million planes. I hope I don't sound pissy, cause I am not, its just I have been curious since a child.
> 
> My top 10 in no particuar order:
> 1. Gregory "Pappy" Boyington
> ...



No there plenty of great american fighter pilots. I happen to really like Pappy Boyington. He is my favorite American Ace. The only reason that I really go for the Luftwaffe aces is because they did what they did at increadable odds.


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## evangilder (Jan 23, 2006)

CurzonDax said:


> My question is this, without again sound pro-US, but its a question I have always had since a child. Why does everyone seem to forget the US aces. While I did vote for Hartmann, my fav Luftwaffe ace, is that US aces are not as romantic or didn't shoot down a million planes. I hope I don't sound pissy, cause I am not, its just I have been curious since a child.
> 
> My top 10 in no particuar order:
> 1. Gregory "Pappy" Boyington
> ...



Interesting list, but I find it curious that Dick Bong and Tom McGuire are not on that list.


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## CurzonDax (Jan 23, 2006)

Interesting list, but I find it curious that Dick Bong and Tom McGuire are not on that list.[/quote]

The reason why they are not there, and this list dates back to my childhood, I thought thier exploits were boring. As an adult I admire them but they are not my fav. To me, and to a certain point that is still true today, they are just pilots, they did not seem to have the charisma that the others had. I mean Pappy had a terrible but addictive series done about him, Yeager broke the sound barrier, Tex was a Flying Tiger, Gabby fought in the Spanish Civil War, etc, etc, etc. Bong and McGuire to me were boring. 

:{)


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 23, 2006)

I wouldnt call McGuire boring... 


And why does everyone forget the Italian aces?  (No prizes for any jokes saying "cos they didnt have any"  )


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## CurzonDax (Jan 23, 2006)

No there plenty of great american fighter pilots. I happen to really like Pappy Boyington. He is my favorite American Ace. The only reason that I really go for the Luftwaffe aces is because they did what they did at increadable odds.[/quote]

I understand all of this. But when I was growing up the only ace that was famous was Pappy because of his infamous series, maybe Yeager and many forget he was an ace in a day. You only seemed to hear about Galland, Hartmann, Johnson, Bader, etc, etc, etc. The first time I ever read about American aces was in Gene Gurney's Five Down and Glory. It was years before I saw other books and these were the Hammel books. I guess, because when I was growing up, the major WWII documentary was The World at War, which had a more Euro slant and so were many of the books at the time. I still have to thank Bantam and thier WWII series for saving my historical mind. Even today it seems that US aces are still in the wings, exept for Pappy or Yeager. 

:{)


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## evangilder (Jan 23, 2006)

Having spent a good chunk of my growing up years in Wisconsin, I got to hear plenty about Richard Bong. There was even an Air Force base in Wisconsin named after him. It was long since closed though.


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## CurzonDax (Jan 23, 2006)

cheddar cheese said:


> I wouldnt call McGuire boring...
> 
> I know this now, but its one of those things that he didn't intrest me back then so he is sort of low on my radar.
> 
> And why does everyone forget the Italian aces?  (No prizes for any jokes saying "cos they didnt have any"  )



Hell yes! I thought the Italians, especially those that fought in North Africa in Fiat and Cr.-planes were the bomb. The tri-color over the desert. In fact the last Bi-plane to bi-plane fight was won by a Italian in Cr. 42Something about thier panache made them great. The top scorer was Capitano Franco Lucchini. His unit 4 Stormo, 90a Sq. shot down almost 600 aircraft and had 32 aces. He had 26 (five in the Spanish Civil War)victories and 52 shared ones. If y'all want to see his record go to http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/lucchini/lucchini.htm

Thats him on the plane :{)


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## CurzonDax (Jan 23, 2006)

evangilder said:


> Having spent a good chunk of my growing up years in Wisconsin, I got to hear plenty about Richard Bong. There was even an Air Force base in Wisconsin named after him. It was long since closed though.



I guess growing up in PR, I got a more Euro slant on the war, until I got to high school.

:{)


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## Hunter368 (Jan 23, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> > Baer's 16 kills in the ME262 made him the leading jet ace in WW2 and also until 1973 the leading jet ace of all nations.
> 
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, there were a couple of Russians and 1 American in Korea that scored 16 or more kills in Korea.... Joseph McConnell had 16 kills by 5/18/1953, with the Top Scorers being Evgeni Pepelyaev and Nick Sutyagin with 23 kills....
> ...



That is possable I was going by my memory. Thanks Les if you are correct.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 23, 2006)

Ur welcome and Im pretty sure I am... The Russian stats are always alittle flunky, but in recent articles and info, these #'s all seem pretty tight...


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## Hunter368 (Jan 23, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> Ur welcome and Im pretty sure I am... The Russian stats are always alittle flunky, but in recent articles and info, these #'s all seem pretty tight...



Cool


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## evangilder (Jan 24, 2006)

CurzonDax said:


> evangilder said:
> 
> 
> > Having spent a good chunk of my growing up years in Wisconsin, I got to hear plenty about Richard Bong. There was even an Air Force base in Wisconsin named after him. It was long since closed though.
> ...



Kind of makes sense, but you did list Boyington. It's funny, the press called him Pappy, but his men never called him Pappy. They called him "Gramps" as he was at the "advanced" age of 30 while most of his men were in their 20s.


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## CurzonDax (Jan 24, 2006)

Kind of makes sense, but you did list Boyington. It's funny, the press called him Pappy, but his men never called him Pappy. They called him "Gramps" as he was at the "advanced" age of 30 while most of his men were in their 20s.[/quote]

Ah that comes from the miracle of a very basic cable system we had down there. Baa Baa Black Sheep was televised down there in both Spanish and Englsh! 

:{)


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## evangilder (Jan 24, 2006)

Ah ok. It's funny, lasst night on the Military Channel on Legends of Airpower, the had an episode on Richard Bong! He was a quiet, unassuming guy on the ground, but a hell of a pilot. If General Kenney had not pulled him out of combat, there is no telling what his tally might have been.

A couple of amazing stories about his piloting skills:
When at Hamilton field, near San Francisco, he flew loops around the center span of the Golden Gate bridge and flew low enough down market street to wave to the secretaries and stenographers!

Barry Goldwater was his gunnery instructor at Luke Field in Arizona. He said that Bong was an exceptional student. While at Luke, flying an AT-6, he flew an engagement against a P-38 with an experienced pilot. No matter how hard he tried, the P-38 pilot could not shake Bong, who was flying the AT-6! The P-38 pilot said that Bong was the finest natural pilot he ever met. 

A p-38 versus an AT-6 is not even a match and the P-38 holds all of the advantages, yet Dick Bong stuck to the P-38.

While in the Pacific, he became known for his "silent landings". He would come in with both engines feathered, perform a loop and then land!

He was an amazing pilot.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 24, 2006)

evangilder said:


> Ah ok. It's funny, lasst night on the Military Channel on Legends of Airpower, the had an episode on Richard Bong! He was a quiet, unassuming guy on the ground, but a hell of a pilot. If General Kenney had not pulled him out of combat, there is no telling what his tally might have been.
> 
> A couple of amazing stories about his piloting skills:
> When at Hamilton field, near San Francisco, he flew loops around the center span of the Golden Gate bridge and flew low enough down market street to wave to the secretaries and stenographers!
> ...



I still think some big name producer needs to make a movie about him and McGuire - the Lindberg visit, Bongs SF antics, a perfect hollywood script!

Imagine if Speilberg got a hold of this one!


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## evangilder (Jan 24, 2006)

I agree. It would make a great movie. But you know how Hollywood hates tragic endings... 

The really sad part is that the news of his death was overshadowed by the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima and so it went mostly unnoticed, except for the people in the 5th AF.

General Kenney had a nice eulogy for him:
_"On August 6, 1945, I was on my way to take off for Headquarters of the Southwest Pacific area in Manila when a radio telegram which had been relayed there was handed to me by my signal officer. Right then, I stopped thinking of the atom bomb which had wiped out Hiroshima that morning, stopped speculation about the effect of the coming entry of Russia into the Pacific War, even stopped thinking of the capitulation of Japan which we all knew was about to take place in a few days. Wherever I landed, I found that the whole Fifth Air Force felt the same, that we had lost a loved one, someone we had been glad to see out of combat and on his way home eight months before. Major Richard I. Bong of Poplar was dead... 

"You see, we not only loved him, we boasted about him, we were proud of him. That's why each of us got a lump in our throats when we read that telegram about his death. Major Bong, Ace of American Aces in all our wars, is destined to hold the title for all time. With the weapons we possess today, no war of the future will last long enough for any pilot to run up 40 victories again. 

"His country and the Air Force must never forget their number-one fighter pilot, who will inspire other fighter pilots and countless thousands of youngsters who will want to follow in his footsteps every time that any nation or coalition of nations dares to challenge our right to think, speak, and live as a free people." _


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 24, 2006)

That's outstanding!


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## CurzonDax (Jan 24, 2006)

I still think some big name producer needs to make a movie about him and McGuire - the Lindberg visit, Bongs SF antics, a perfect hollywood script!

Imagine if Speilberg got a hold of this one![/quote]

But why, Cruise is going to make the world safe for democracy next year. He's going to win the Battle of Britain all by his scientology self!


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## CurzonDax (Jan 24, 2006)

Hunter368 said:


> lesofprimus said:
> 
> 
> > > Baer's 16 kills in the ME262 made him the leading jet ace in WW2 and also until 1973 the leading jet ace of all nations.
> ...



Goria Epstien of the Israeli AF has 17 victories, all in jets. 

:{)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 24, 2006)

CurzonDax said:


> I understand all of this. But when I was growing up the only ace that was famous was Pappy because of his infamous series, maybe Yeager and many forget he was an ace in a day. You only seemed to hear about Galland, Hartmann, Johnson, Bader, etc, etc, etc. The first time I ever read about American aces was in Gene Gurney's Five Down and Glory. It was years before I saw other books and these were the Hammel books. I guess, because when I was growing up, the major WWII documentary was The World at War, which had a more Euro slant and so were many of the books at the time. I still have to thank Bantam and thier WWII series for saving my historical mind. Even today it seems that US aces are still in the wings, exept for Pappy or Yeager.
> 
> :{)



Like I said, I think there were a lot of great American Aces. Many Many Many that were just as good and skilled as the top Luftwaffe Aces. I personally just think that the numbers of the top Luftwaffe Aces and Experten speaks for all for itself. I mean look at Erich Hartmann alone, he even tought at a USAAF flight school in the United States after the war, well after he was released from POW camps in Russia and returned to Germany. These men really accomplished something in Aviation History that will probably never be broken. It is really hard to put others up on the pedistals with them.


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## Hunter368 (Jan 24, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> CurzonDax said:
> 
> 
> > I understand all of this. But when I was growing up the only ace that was famous was Pappy because of his infamous series, maybe Yeager and many forget he was an ace in a day. You only seemed to hear about Galland, Hartmann, Johnson, Bader, etc, etc, etc. The first time I ever read about American aces was in Gene Gurney's Five Down and Glory. It was years before I saw other books and these were the Hammel books. I guess, because when I was growing up, the major WWII documentary was The World at War, which had a more Euro slant and so were many of the books at the time. I still have to thank Bantam and thier WWII series for saving my historical mind. Even today it seems that US aces are still in the wings, exept for Pappy or Yeager.
> ...



I agree 100%, there was alot of pilots from USA or UK that could fly a plane as well as they could, but no other nation asked and demanded of their pilots the way that Germany did, and still have the pilots do such a successful job at the same time.

-UK and USA pilots were taken off combat duty after a short number of missions when compared to German pilots. They also did not have to fly many many of their missions totally out numbered like Germans had to. Also part of the reason that Germans had so many kills is the number of combat missions that they had to fly, many of those they were fatigued because of the number of flights they had to make ever day.

-Japan had pilots that flew a long time also but they also were either killed or did not enjoy the same amount of success as the German pilots did.

-Russia did not have alot of pilots score a high number of kills (compared to the Germans totals) because many of them were killed. They did have to fly much of the war in inferior planes than the Germans but they also had numbers on their side almost always.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 24, 2006)

Hunter368 said:


> I agree 100%, there was alot of pilots from USA or UK that could fly a plane as well as they could, but no other nation asked and demanded of their pilots the way that Germany did, and still have the pilots do such a successful job at the same time.



I agree however the British did just that during the BoB. They depended on the RAF for there survival and the RAF fought valiently and one at incredible odds that were stacked against them.


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## Hunter368 (Jan 24, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Hunter368 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree 100%, there was alot of pilots from USA or UK that could fly a plane as well as they could, but no other nation asked and demanded of their pilots the way that Germany did, and still have the pilots do such a successful job at the same time.
> ...



I agree again but that was for only a few months not the whole war. During the BoB when LW was targetting RAF bases and just in general the RAF pilots were very tired and worn out. They were not near defeat but the pilots were at the end of their ropes so to speak. Now imagine how they would of felt and performed if they fought most of the war the same way. But I agree during that short peroid RAF was out numbered by the total forces of LW. During Battle of Germany the home defense fighters were sometimes out numbered not just by the total force attacking (bombers and fighters) but the USA escorts alone even out numbered the defending LW fighters. Thats scary stuff.


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## Hellbird (Jan 24, 2006)

I'm new to this so don't call me stupid. How many kills did you need to be an ace? And wasn't Chuck Yeager an ace?


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 24, 2006)

Hellbird said:


> I'm new to this so don't call me stupid. How many kills did you need to be an ace? And wasn't Chuck Yeager an ace?



Welcome Hellbird - 5 kills, Yeager was an ace (12 kills) and you're not stupid, read on some of the threads and join in....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 25, 2006)

Welcome to the site.


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## Gnomey (Jan 25, 2006)

Welcome to the forums Hellbird.


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## evangilder (Jan 25, 2006)

Welcome aboard, Hellbird. No worries, we are all here to learn.


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## Hunter368 (Jan 25, 2006)

Hello Hellbird


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## Rudi (Mar 3, 2006)

Hello there, I´m new here, too.

My favourite Pilots of the war were those defending their country against the intruders, like the British in the BOB, the Russians, just to call some... But of all nations, the LW impressed me most. Sure, first i hated Göring too, saying bad words about the LW-Pilots in Defense, like those stationed in Italy, or those in the Reichsverteidigung duty... BUT i read a lot and must admit, that there were enough Pilots who gave every day their best doing their duty and got not the success demanded by their leaders. It was a hard job, but a man who can surpass these fears and mental problems could really achieve success. Many could not and were called cowards, probably i could no do better in thei place... But there were cowards amoung those who fought and gave much, gave all they had and propably lost their life. Those Pilots, wo could fight against the Viermots, to breakethrough the escort (or to fly against them) ervery day, do their duty, lead their unit or do the proper job in the unit, those pilots i do admire. They were unselfish. Their life on the ground was not easy at all. But they did it. 
Men performing well in the Reichsverteidigung, doind their job well for many years, leading units to success, like
Konrad "Pit" Bauer
Georg-Peter "Schorsch" Eder 
Anton "Toni" Hackl
....

Especially Eder is my favourite, flying at the end the 262 scoring at least 14 propably 24 victories, and being wounded in January 45 before the Jet-units could achive their greatest success and action...

But there were others, like 
Hans Ehlers
Alwin Doppler
Anton-Rudolf Piffer
Rudolf Engleder
Herbert Huppertz
Josef Wurmheller aso....

Not to forget the newcomers, young Pilots doing their job without having any or great experience in combat, like 
Willi Unger 24v in 59 missions, 21 Viermots,
Willi Reschke 27v in 48 missions, 19 Viermots,
Walter Loos 38v in 66 missions, 22 Viermots... aso....
those Pilots got in very few missions their greatest success. In the end they flew many missions on Eastern front, mostly escort and groudattack, too. 

ASO


It is hard to say who was the best. Propably nobody could answer this, because people cant be compared really. They can be compared by thei victories, their experience, their lobby and fans (some have none and were good pilots, too, like Buehligen), theis kills per sortie/day/rounds...
On all sides the pilots of all nations did their job very well and some didnt. Thats the point. Nobody has the exactly same conditions (not even physical conditions, since Hartmann, Lang, Marseille... had for example excellent eyesight. Douglas Bader, "Assi" Hahn had not- and Barkhorn and Balthasar had even glasses!)


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## lesofprimus (Mar 3, 2006)

Welcome... 

I will have to agree with u concerning Konrad Bauer, one hellofa pilot, and an excellent leader to boot...

BTW, some of Loos victories are in question...


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## Hunter368 (Mar 5, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> Welcome...
> 
> I will have to agree with u concerning Konrad Bauer, one hellofa pilot, and an excellent leader to boot...
> 
> BTW, some of Loos victories are in question...



I believe off the top of my head Bauer shot down something like 30-35 bombers, thats impressive, he was a brave man. After all my reading about German pilots taking on the those USA bomber boxes, I would sooner take on the fighters any day than fly in at those bomber boxes. It had to be very unnerving sliding down in your seat as you get with in range of the bombers and see tracers flying by and hitting your plane and still head in and press your attack knowing anyone of those shots could end your life. IMHO those men who attacked the bomber boxes were the bravest men of them all. Whether you lived or died depended alot on sheer luck.


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## CurzonDax (Mar 6, 2006)

I just bought a book this weekend about Luftwaffe aces in the western front. What is interesting, and I had heard these conclusions before were that:

1. If USAAF pilots had been allowed to fly as many missions as Luftwaffe pilots thier scores could have been theoretically as high as the highest Luftwaffe pilots.

2. USAAF pilots were just as good and thier equipment as good as the Luftwaffe in 39-41 when the Luftwaffe was still fighting a wholly offensive campaign. By 1943 the USAAF was on the attack role while the Luftwaffe was on the defensive.

So, it sort of backs up (not proves) that Gabreski, Yeager, Mahurin and so on were just as good both in skill and equipment as the Galland brothers, Priller, and so on and so forth. So many of you may say so what? What is your point? 

My point is that also while the different comabatants may have had great individual pilots, the system that put out these pilots was also important. And I know it can be argued that as the war progressed and "safe" airspace diminished over Germany, Italy, and Japan it was still amazing that on a industrial level the USAAF and the GAF were still able to produce quality pilots. I want to stress that if USAAF pilots had flown the same amount of missions as GAF pilots, not only thier scores may have been comparable but also for sure there would have been as many aces in the USAAF than there was in the GAF. 

:{)


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## lesofprimus (Mar 6, 2006)

> 2. USAAF pilots were just as good and thier equipment as good as the Luftwaffe in 39-41


Thats a freakin huge joke right??? What American fighter aircraft in 1940 could effectivly combat the Bf-109???


> 1. If USAAF pilots had been allowed to fly as many missions as Luftwaffe pilots thier scores could have been theoretically as high as the highest Luftwaffe pilots.


Nope, not even theoretically... The Luftwaffe was not producing as many aircraft per month as the Americans and Russians were producing in a week.... Its a simple math equation...


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## Erich (Mar 6, 2006)

think of mulit fronts in the war that the Luftw was fighting, the US on the other hand was not.

Walter Loos...........discount probably about half of his kills. Bauers are also speculative in some fashion as well


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## Jabberwocky (Mar 6, 2006)

CurzonDax said:


> 2. USAAF pilots were just as good and thier equipment as good as the Luftwaffe in 39-41 when the Luftwaffe was still fighting a wholly offensive campaign. By 1943 the USAAF was on the attack role while the Luftwaffe was on the defensive.
> 
> :{)




I've got to disagree on this point here.

Firstly, USAAF pilots didn't have anywhere near the combat expertise and hardening that the LuftWaffe pilots did. Early experiance in the Spainish Civil War and the battles of Poland, Norway, France and Britain turned the LuftWaffe into the most battle-hardened fighting force in the world, with the Finnish and Japanese a short second.

If you put two pilots with the same training in the same plane and one of them has much more combat experiance, who are you going to think has a better chance of surviving a fight?

Secondly USAAF single seaters weren't as good as their German counterparts, at least until the deployment of the P-38F in Nth Africa in late 1942. Faced with a 109/190 combination, the P-40 and P-39 that made up the bulk of USAAF fighter strength until mid 1943 look a little sickly.

However, USAAF bombers were superior to their LuftWaffe adversaries. The LuftWaffe had nothing to match the B-17 and B-24. USAAF medium bombers such as the A-20, B-24 and B-26 aquitted themselves admirably in early service.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 7, 2006)

I have to disagree also. While I think the USAAF Pilots by 1943 were just as good as most Luftwaffe pilots. They recieved excellent training and had good equipment as well. I do not see really anyone catching up with the high aces that did occur from the Luftwaffe, for reasons stated by the others here.


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## Rudi (Mar 7, 2006)

I dont think that it had something to do with the "experience" of the spanish civil war, poland, aso.... (think about the experience of the other Nations, which were gathered in the wars before WWII http://users.accesscomm.ca/magnusfamily/between.htm )
-there were enough Legion condor-returners who were not that "good" and successful like well trained newcomers. Tactics were developed and gathering experience with the equipment, headquarters, supply aso... Germany didnt fought against themselves in Spain- their opponents had at least the same chance to enlarge their experience!

If a pilot has to fight till the war´s end he flies in another style like a pilot knowing be send home after a while. So did the Germans, Italians, Russians... the others had not to return to combat after an injury, holiday, instruction duties...

All in all its the man´s fighting/surviving will -not always the experience. So THE greatest Pilot can be out of each country, it doesnt count the experience that much, nor the amount ou kills... (i dont mean with "experience" how well trained a pilot is and how many how good he handles the machine- in this context the pilot xy has to be average on the controlls of an aircraft)

Bong was already in f-school an artist while flying, just like Hartmann, Meimberg, Marseille, Lacey... but they had it.

Pingel, Schöpfel, Johnson (RAF) aso, were excellent, but no real killers...

Oh, man, i lost the point with whom i started. so ill stop here.


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## CurzonDax (Mar 7, 2006)

Alrighty, EVERYONE obvoiously read my post wrong. What I was saying was that by the time the USAAF was in force over Europe, late 43-45, thier equipment and Training was just as good as the Luftwaffe was in 39-41. 

But going back to missions vs. victories. The Average US ace had about 20-25 victories before they were yanked from frontline service. Bong for example was the exeption not the rule. But I think Rudi and I we are saying the same thing, experience is not the norm. Look how many Luftwaffe aces with 50+ kills DID NOT fight in Spain. Many of the US aces were already gifted pilots and some were already fighting before Pearl. Look at the AVG boys, was it Gabreski that fought in Spain?, the Eagle Squadron. 

So experience in actual combat can not be a meter. Look at Bong, Yeager, Mahurin, McGuire, Blackburn, Foss and so on and so forth. None of these men had any combat experience and many of these men had 20+ kills and in some cases, for example, Foss and Blackburn, in Wildcats fighting Zeros/Zekes and 109s (Blackburn baptism of fire was TORCH) became aces or started on the path, fighting with inferior equipment against much better equiped and just as skilled adversaries. 

Sooooo, I will concede the point that USAAF aces would have been hard pressed to get to the 100+ level even without getting yanked at the end of thier tours, but it is very concievable that many if they would have been left in could have had 50, 60, or even 70+. Guys like Bong, McGuire could have had up to 100 by the wars end if Bong had not been yanked or McGuire Killed. 

:{)


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 7, 2006)

Remeber, the 5th AF guys in the pacific might of had more - I once read that Bong and Mcguire might had close to 50 kills, but many went unconfirmed....


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## CurzonDax (Mar 7, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Remeber, the 5th AF guys in the pacific might of had more - I once read that Bong and Mcguire might had close to 50 kills, but many went unconfirmed....



Yes there is also this, how many USAAF/USN/USMC kills went unconfirmed. SO it makes me wonder, while I don't doubt that Luftwaffe pilots shot down A LOT of planes, were some of these scores inflated? Just asking.

:{)


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## Erich (Mar 7, 2006)

we will never actually know about Luftwaffe claims vs kills, I noted many times on the forums that there was no action to confimr via the luftw hierarchy in November 44 till wars end so many records are lost or are subjective to a very big (?). unconfirmed oh yes I believe many for the day fighter force and even the night fighter force as well.

just as Rudel tank kills are infalted in my eyes so are several noted Luftwaffe aces that come to mind, Dahl, Loos, Rudoffer, Welter, etc ......... suppose the same could be said of several RAF and US pilot too, Frenchman Closterman is another


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## lesofprimus (Mar 7, 2006)

After all the reading I've done over the last 30 years or so, and all the combat reports and stats I've seen, there is hardly a day or mission where the Allied reported losses match the German claims, and vice versa.... 

There are a few rare instances where the information is verified on both sides, but this was the exception to the rule...

In other words, EVERYONE inflated kill totals, and some even downgraded their losses...


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## CurzonDax (Mar 7, 2006)

Some archelogical and first hand reports have downgraded Allied scores in the last decade. If one looks at recent books on the air war in the Pacific Boyington is no longer the top USMC ace, Foss is or Lamphier is now pretty much accepted not to be the pilot who killed Yamamoto. (In fact this historical reversal made him a very bitter man). Even in WWI, which this event was on one of the first episodes of Battlefield Detectives, the exhumed Richtofen's body and using very CSI/Grissom type stuff they were able to prove that Snoopy... I mean Brown did not kill the Red Baron but the Austrailian AA crew. 

Still it can be argued that USAAF/USN/USMC claims were probably more accurate than others because of the use of gun camaras. Not saying that this was 100% accurate but it helped. I know the japanese did not have them and I know it existed in the Luftwaffe, but was it standard equipment?

:{)


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## Rudi (Mar 7, 2006)

i saw these guncamera films. they say mostly nothing. Sorry. 
Very often a victim was shot down by more than one pilot, not nowing, that he had to share his kill in his account...

So was the deal with the German kills in hot spots: especially in RLV (Reichsluftverteidigung) they were mostly not able to watch their victim´s crash because of altitude, subsequent fight, wild melee of aircraft in the air.

In Sturmangriff of Sturmgruppe, for example you cannot say exactly if the bomber you shot at went really down, or tried first to seperate from other burning aircraft, or get back the control of the aircraft after the attack... in this time another attacker could shoot at the same Viermot... so there are double claims... not very much, but almost always some (I think 10-30 % but i did not red these number in books, just my own conclusion...). The same problem with the attack from ahead into the B-17/24 formation: wen the whole Gruppe rushes trough the fromation, who could after say exactly that his victim was enough hit to fall... mostly the newcomers made some no-real-claim. Fighting and shooting in smaller numbers, or not in fromtion (at least Rotte) was much easier to count the kills especially when one is on the winner-side. But not always. Non-experience was propably the main factor why in the BOB on both sides were made so many false claims... they just did not knew wehn an aircraft got enough damadge...

I red that in the average the Luftwaffe-claims had no more than 10% false claims...
The RAF always overclaimed in the first half of the war... in the last six months it seems to me that they were very accurate in claims, especially in the very last months they underclaimed.

Those whom i believe most in claims are

Luftwaffe
UdssR
USAF
RAF
..
Italy
Japan
...


FAF and Romanian AF and some more i dont have enough information to make a decission, but i think they were almost as accurate as those first four mentioned

But i also think the more experienced a pilot is and the more he fought and shot against the enemy, the more accurate are the claims... but not always (Dahl)


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## Erich (Mar 7, 2006)

you better do some more reading on SturmFw angriff Rudi, it is very plausible for individual pilots to take down a specific bomber, it is recorded in their flubuchs and Geschwader histories besides the gun-cams.

sorry I just do not agree with your statements, Sturmfw's were to pick only one bomber per push through a pulk of bombers before setting up again for another attack hopefully by staffel strength. I've got too many vet interviews to say otherwise besides my friendship with several that are still alive


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## Rudi (Mar 7, 2006)

ahh, and missions do not always say about the skill, friend!

Many many allied fighters had flown hundrets of missions, too.

Ok, then enemy contact- wehn e.c. was made, there was a difference between skill and the ability to shoot at the enemy. Many very good pilots had to made their job behind the leader, propably never to get in a good shooting position. You have to be made a higher rank to be leader of a Rotte or Schwarm aso like in RLV, or you have to get some hundrets of sorties and fights to get the leadership... In RLV in the attack from ahead each pilot had his position in formation and had to shoot at the part of the Viermot he got: the wing, between the motors, between two aircraft´s wingtips, like in I/JG11... But in other units they same in in lines, so everybody had theoretically a chance, like in IV/JG 3 untill they were made Stumgruppe... then, in RLV in summer 44 each man was needed, so everybody sperated with the "Pauke Pauke" and attacked be himself... more kills were made, but more chaos...

But in average, one had to serve a long time, to get the chance to be the boss... so was with other nations, too. But not all.

If one is the leader, the possibility to make a kill was higher, so not always the talented dudes got their chance... some exceptions, but no time to tell.
good night.


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## 102first_hussars (Mar 7, 2006)

You forgot to put Buzz Beurling up there, he is at least one of the greatest.


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## lesofprimus (Mar 7, 2006)

Could only fit 15 up there, and there were previous polls before this one, and Buzz got ZERO votes, so............

No Buzz on this one...


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## Erich (Mar 7, 2006)

as I said go read some materials on the SturmFw's Rudi, what the heck are you talking about frontal JG 11 attacks when I was emphasizing my point with the 3 sturmgruppen ? Do you know how a Sturmangriff was made ? not always by the Gruppenkommandeur and it also changed with the style that the US heavies were positioned in. A Rottenfuhrer or schwarmfuhrer true is needed but when it came to lat fall winter of 44-45 it was not necessary and staffelführers when not needed on the ground replced dead leadership and had to form up the attack on them after the SturmFw's went through the back to the front of the viermot pulk.

we may not be talking the same situation are we ? Gun cameras were provided for many sturmFw pilots in late summer-fall of 44 with the introduction of massive amounts of 2cm and 3cm Minengeschoss rounds, not just for the Staffelkapitäns anymore according to Hans Weik of 10.Sturm/JG 3 now.w deceased. there are several first person accounts of SturmFw pilots of IV.Sturm/JG 3 attacking B-17's where one pilot actually witnessed the destruction of a Fort due to the neighboring Fw, and he himslef attacked another opne and severed the wing off of it. That is just one instance.

true I will agree in the Reichsverteidigung and in 1 case where my cousin was killed in his Fw 190A-9, his Geschwader overly estimated the US bomber kills with 56 originally. After going through the gun cams and confirmational procedures by other first hand witnessed the JG 301 was credited with 21 kills, exactly matching the B-24 losses of the US 445thbg and the 491st bg that they had attacked ............ 26 November 44. A rare instance that matched up. 1944-45 were death throes fighters vs fighters slugging it out and this is where inflated claims can easily be made for both Luftw. and US fighter escorts


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## CurzonDax (Mar 7, 2006)

Erich said:


> you better do some more reading on SturmFw angriff Rudi, it is very plausible for individual pilots to take down a specific bomber, it is recorded in their flubuchs and Geschwader histories besides the gun-cams.
> 
> sorry I just do not agree with your statements, Sturmfw's were to pick only one bomber per push through a pulk of bombers before setting up again for another attack hopefully by staffel strength. I've got too many vet interviews to say otherwise besides my friendship with several that are still alive



I also have done several vet interviews and seen a lot of footage to know the vast majority of footage is one plane shooting down one plane. But that was not my question. My question was if gun cameras were standard equipment on Luftwaffe aircraft like they were on many allied aircraft. 

:{)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 13, 2006)

For the most part I believe they were.


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## Hunter368 (Mar 14, 2006)

Anyone have a book or know a book on Hiroyoshi Nishizawa?


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## Udet (Mar 21, 2006)

Curzondax:

If by standard equipment you mean the majority of the German fighters fitted with gun camera then the answer is yes. 

To have gun cameras installed in fighters was a standard procedure for the Luftwaffe from the offset (Poland, September 1st. 1939).

Installing gun cameras in both Bf 109s and Fw 190s became even more significant during the bloody year of 1944, when the Luftwaffe wanted to gather as much video as possible of attacks against the massive heavy bomber boxes for both training purposes and propaganda.

I´ve been trying to figure out of a more exact percentage of German planes fitted with cameras during 1944; although I am not yet done, it´d appear it is not possible to finally come along with an accurate figure.

Still, and from what I´ve read and asked, it´d appear that at least 60% of the German planes were fitted with those cameras.

The situation of the USAAF in this particular department ain´t necessarily clearer. I have asked USAAF veterans of an approximate number of fighters fitted with cameras, their answers were not very helpful, but they told me many of the american planes in fact had no gun cameras.

Any further information from members would be nice.

Ah: best pilot? Several hundreds of German experten.

You can rule out the bulk of soviet pilots, they relied heavily on partisans to have their claims confirmed. Also, they were subjected to tremendous pressure by those political felons attached to all armed branches of the Soviet Union, who would greet pilots returning from combat missions with questions such as "How many fascist snakes did you shoot down?".

If "none" would become the standard response to such questionings, the pilot could certainly fret about his future.


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## loomaluftwaffe (Mar 22, 2006)

Finnih pilots made the best out of their prewar scrap


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 22, 2006)

Well as I said before I like Hartmann the best and allways have, but in my opinion Heinz Baer is the best.


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## lesofprimus (Mar 22, 2006)

And I agree that Bar was the best as well....


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Mar 22, 2006)

Hey, did any of you guys mention Joe Foss? He was a marine fighter pilot in the pacific with 26 confirmed kills and a medal of honor recipient. Although Jimmy thach only shot down 5-7 japanese planes, but he thought up of the beam defense manuveur ( Thach weave). Anyway the poll is good and i wonder who will win


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 22, 2006)

It has all ready been decided with 224 votes for Erich Hartmann.


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## lesofprimus (Mar 22, 2006)

Foss was on a previous Poll VZ, and recieved one vote, so he did not get transferred to this new one....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 22, 2006)

I think this poll is pretty good and covers most of htem.


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## lesofprimus (Mar 22, 2006)

Why thank you Adler, I agree, and the time it took me to put this thread together has paid off....

However, I still believe that Bar should be higher than Nowotny....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 22, 2006)

I agree as well. Baer in my opinion is the greatest, besides he did most of his kills on the West Front.


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## loomaluftwaffe (Mar 24, 2006)

Juutilainen deserves some credit too, but he wouldnt stand a chance against them cause he isn;t really mentioned as much as Hartmann or Galland


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 24, 2006)

Did he do waht Hartmann or Galland did? That might be why.


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## loomaluftwaffe (Mar 24, 2006)

he was never hit by a Soviet fighter


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 24, 2006)

All I am saying, is Hartmann even though he is one of the greatest, gets all the attention because of the ammount of kills he had.


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## plan_D (Mar 24, 2006)

Well, he is the highest scoring ace in history. I think that does deserve some credit !


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 24, 2006)

I agree, like I said up there somewhere, he is my favorite WW2 pilot.


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## plan_D (Mar 24, 2006)

I know he crashed in his plane a few times , but was he actually ever shot down. I heard he wasn't .


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## lesofprimus (Mar 25, 2006)

He wasnt, but had he fought in the West, things probably would have been different...


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## loomaluftwaffe (Mar 25, 2006)

what were Hartmann's tacits anyway? all i know is that he gets in close and blasts them to hell with his MK108


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## lesofprimus (Mar 25, 2006)

He got in close cause he knew he was such a bad marksman.... He did alot of Lonewolf Ops, and pick his targets to suit his posistion.... I would guess that 80-90% of Hartmanns victories were outta the sun, and his Russian targets never saw him coming...


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## loomaluftwaffe (Mar 25, 2006)

most kills are made usually cause the pilot who was shot down didn't know that there was a 109 right behind him about to blast him to hell

Hartmann was called "Bubi" cause he looked young right?
anyways, Juutilainen is my fav pilot


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## lesofprimus (Mar 25, 2006)

> Hartmann was called "Bubi" cause he looked young right?


Yup, he was nick named as such by his mentor....


> anyways, Juutilainen is my fav pilot


And a good one to have, although I think Hans Wind was the better Finnish Ace...

Hans "Hasse" Wind and his last flight
by Ossi Juntunen

It was the 28th of June 1944 in Lappeenranta air base. The Red Army offensive in Karelia was reaching its culmination point at Ihantala. The command of the Finnish forces needed to know whether the enemy was getting any reinforcements by railway or the coast road at Viipuri (now Vyborg). The only planes even theoretically able to penetrate the airspace controlled by superior enemy were fast fighters. Also the older fighter pilots had received observer training. 

The Commander of Fighter Squadron 24, Major Karhunen received orders to reconnoiter the target with the Messerschmitt Bf 109 G fighters of his squadron. The phone rang in the pilot's hut of the 1st flight at Lappeenranta air base. Commander of the flight, 25-year old Captain Hans Wind picked up the handset, answered, listened, then said flatly: "Two, roger" and rang off. 

His pilots looked at him questioningly. Wind paced round the room, then explained: he had received orders to reconnoiter with two planes east and south of Viipuri. He needed say nothing more. Every one of the pilots understood that it was an insane order, a true suicide mission. Probably Major Karhunen knew it, too, because he had ordered only two planes to the task - to minimize the likely loss. The enemy fighters constantly patrolled the airspace of the target and could summon reinforcements in a few minutes. The enemy most likely also had radar. 

Capt. Wind felt as an officer that it was his duty to fulfill the order, however idiotic. He continued pacing, then turned to his wingman and friend, Sergeant Major Nils Katajainen with a question: "Nipa, would you join me ?". Katajainen agreed, saying that he could go since he already had had his breakfast and he did not expect to get any in enemy hands. 

The two pilots donned their gear. To date Capt. Wind had scored 72 victories and Sergeant Major Katajainen 30. Then they studied the map and agreed on tactics: no radio traffic because the enemy would intercept the messages. Wind would do the reconnaissance and Katajainen would cover him. Then they climbed in their Bf 109 G-6 fighters - Wind was flying MT-439, Katajainen MT-476 - and the mechanics started the engines by hand-cranking. The two Messerschmitts took off at 10.25 a.m. 

Approaching the target area at 5000 m the two pilots saw seven enemy Yak-9 fighters at low altitude. To the surprise of wingman Katajainen, his leader half-rolled and dived at the enemy: on reconnaissance mission battle must be avoided if only possible. (It is this author's guess that Wind wanted to abort the suicide mission gracefully - being drawn into battle against superior enemy is a honourable way to return from a mission not accomplished). But Katajainen had to follow his leader. At the very same moment he saw that they had been ambushed - 20 more Soviet fighters, Airacobras and Yak-9s were diving at them, and the enemy leader was calling for reinforcements. 

A desperate air battle started at 4000 m. Captain Wind shot down one Yak-9 that happened to fly in his sights, Katajainen tried to follow, but then they were separated and both pilots had to fight alone. There were far too many enemies for Wind to dodge them all. His Messerschmitt was hit, but in turn he shot down two more Yaks in quick succession. Looking back, Wind saw the huge muzzle flashes of the Airacobra's 37 mm fuselage cannon. 

He had just managed to damage one of the Airacobras as a 37 mm shell fired by another one exploded in his seat armour. Another shell pierced the armour glass behind his left shoulder, exploding in the instrument panel. Wind's left arm was badly wounded. Burning kerosene from the smashed liquid compass filled the cockpit with dark smoke. Wind put the smoking Messerschmitt in a nose-dive. 

The enemy pilots considered the Bf 109 a confirmed victory and disengaged. Wind recovered his damaged fighter from the dive at a very low altitude and took the course to Lappeenranta. But he never knew what happened after that. He recovered consciousness for a while on the hospital operation table as he was being prepared for emergency operation. 

The witnesses can tell that Capt. Wind sent a radio message: "Been hit, send for ambulance." - but he did not respond to any calls, just hallucinated in the radio to pilots flying too close on his wing - men who had been killed in action. The enemy shell had not only destroyed his instruments but also cut off the power adjustment lever - the Messerschmitt engine was stuck on full power and automatic prop pitch control. Wind was flying by instinct provided by training and experience. Approaching the base the wounded pilot was able to extend the undercarriage, but he had to land without the use of landing flaps with an initial speed of 500 km/h. 

The ground crews and other pilots of the base watched in horror what would happen; the Bf 109 was notoriously difficult to land even when flown by a pilot in normal condition and not battle-damaged. Capt. Wind adjusted the engine power by switching ignition off and on, and MT-439 made a bouncing landing at 11.00 hours, staying on the gravel runway until at the end the fighter drifted to the left side. 

Capt. Wind opened the cockpit canopy and tried to get out, but did not have any more strength to do it. He saw men running to help, and said to the first one: "Nipa got it" then collapsed back in the cockpit. His last flight had ended, and he had scored his last victories, making a total of 75. 

He was given first aid - he had lost a lot of blood and had splinters in his left arm, hand and back - and then flown to a central hospital in Mikkeli on a Ju 52. 

But Nipa had not got it. Somehow he managed to escape a little farther and he saw three fighters fall, believing that Wind's Messerschmitt was the last of them. As the enemy fighters rejoined for return to base, he approached them from below with revenge in mind. At a short range Katajainen aimed at the last Airacobra of the formation and fired a burst. The enemy fighter puffed out thick smoke and nose-dived. Katajainen half-rolled, dived and turned his course to the base in a somber mood. 

Approaching the front line Katajainen by chance came across an enemy observation balloon - he flew through the AAA barrage and shot the "sausage" in flames. Then he crossed the front line. On the Finnish territory he happened to see nine Il-2M ground attack planes on return from their mission - he attacked them and managed to shoot down two before the escort fighters had time to disturb him. MT-476 landed at Lappeenranta at 11.05 hrs. Katajainen's first words to his ground crew were: "Hasse got it". 

The same day Capt. Wind had been granted the Mannerheim cross for the second time. 

When Capt. Wind returned to full consciousness about one week later, the first words he heard in his hospital bed were: - Hasse, how are you? The voice was familiar - Yes, it was Nipa Katajainen, his wingman, lying on the next bed. On the 3rd of July enemy AAA had got a bad hit in his machine, which had disintegrated during landing at Lappeenranta and left the pilot with fractured arms and legs. 

Wind's MT-439 was repaired at the base with parts scavenged from other Bf's damaged beyond repair. It flew again some days later until it was shot down in July. 

Hans Henrik Wind was born on 30 July 1919 in Tammisaari. He served in LLv 24. In air combat on 27 September 1941 "Hasse" scored his first victory - Soviet I-15bis. First 39 kills he achieved in Brewster B-239 fighters. In 1944 Wind achieved 25 kills in 10 days during the great Soviet offensive with his personal plane - a Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6 numbered MT-439. Wind scored 36 kills with the Messerschmitts. 

After dramatic combat on 28 June 1944, Wind didn't return to front duty, he was hospitalized for the rest of the war. He finished a total of 302 combat sorties, scoring 75 kills. He is ranked on second position on WWII FAF top aces list. He left FAF service on 10 October 1945 as a captain. "Hasse" Wind died on 24 July 1995 in Tampere.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 25, 2006)

Hartmann did not have success at first. It was not until he changed his tactics that he started getting kills.

He did not get the name Bubi just because he looked young, but because he was young.


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## loomaluftwaffe (Mar 26, 2006)

oh, wow I hear so many incredible stories from Finnish planes, but that story was by far the best


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## lesofprimus (Mar 26, 2006)

Well, then, ur welcome....


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## Erich (Mar 26, 2006)

it might be also interesting and I encourage you guys to do so for the ones that think Hartmann was the hottest the Luftwaffe had to offer................please do some research on Erich's most able wingman, another blond with over 110 kills to his credit. without him Hartmann would of been toast


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 26, 2006)

Leutnant Alfred Grislawski


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## pbfoot (Mar 26, 2006)

I don't think any fighter pilot would last very long in combat without a wingman The exception being the consumate fighter pilot Beurling


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 26, 2006)

I agree, mostly because it is an extra set of eyes to look watch your back.


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## Erich (Mar 27, 2006)

no not Alfred Grislawski for Hartmanns wingman


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 27, 2006)

Hmm I thought he was the guy that took him under his wing and then had a big rivalry with him.


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## Twitch (Mar 28, 2006)

Marseille used less ordnance of lighter caliber to score his kills than just about anyone plus regularly destroyed multiples in a rapid succession and short time span.


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## loomaluftwaffe (Mar 29, 2006)

you have pics of Marseille and his plane all over ur posts lol
is he the guy who died when he bailed out and got hit by the tailplane?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 29, 2006)

Yeap.


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## stonewall23 (Dec 19, 2006)

I'm surprised by one name not on the list .Brendan ' paddy ' Finucane ,he fought in the battle of britian .He had 32 confirmed kills , 9 probable ,8 damaged. He was the youngest wing commander in the R.A.F ( june 1942 ) and he was awarded the D.S.O and D.F.C with two bars. He was killed by ground fire over France on 15th July 1942. His aircraft crashed into the sea and was never found .


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 19, 2006)

The ones on the list seem to be the ones that are most noticable. But the best of the best are on that list.


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 19, 2006)

From what I read about Finucane, he was a tremendous pilot, I think his early demise has kept his identity from being well recognized by many WW2 enthusiasts.


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## stonewall23 (Dec 19, 2006)

Yes , it's a shame but your right FlyboyJ.His short career belies his skills.He does remain largely unrecognized. A real shame.


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## DIOGENIS (Dec 20, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Hartmann did not have success at first. It was not until he changed his tactics that he started getting kills.
> 
> He did not get the name Bubi just because he looked young, but because he was young.



is it true that while in Soviet captivity he gave up on his fellow comrades? I think some problems with the rest german prisoners occured


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 25, 2006)

Not sure on that, sorry.


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## DIOGENIS (Dec 25, 2006)

I'll do further research on that Adler, thx though.

May be a bit off topic, but i can't help mentioning one of the most inspiring pilots to me:
Hans Ulrich Rudel who eventually flew in a fw 190 and succeeded a few kills (so technically he is an ace) , he was more of a soldier in a flying tank rather a fighter pilot.

The following text is copied from a fine site :Achtung Panzer!

During his career, Rudel flew over 2530 (around 400 of his sorties were flown in a Focke-Wulf 190 fighter plane during whichhe was credit with 11 air victories) missions and destroyed around 150 various artillery pieces, 519 tanks, around 1000 various vehicles, 70 landing crafts, 2 Lavochkin La-3 fighters, Il-2 Stormovik and sunk Battleship "Marat", 2 Cruisers and a Destroyer. Rudel was responsible for such huge damages to the Red Army that Joseph Stalin himself put a price of 100.000 rubles on his head.He flew more than 600.000km and used more than 5.000.000 liters of fuel. Hans Rudel dropped over 1.000.000kg of bombs, fired over 1.000.000 of machine gun rounds, over 150.000 20mm rounds and over 5000 37mm rounds. Rudel thought that the Lend-Lease American tanks were easier to kill than the Soviet T-34s, but he hated their machine guns, because once he was shotdown by one. Rudel was an outstanding pilot with experience,who loved to fly and destroy.He hated to take homeleave or sickleave and even when he got his leg amputatedhe was not depressed since he couldstill do what he loved - fly and destroy.During his career, Hans Rudel showed remarkable power, toughness, fearlessness, unparalleled determination and arrogance but none of his photos show any impact of the hardship of war on his face. His personal bravery was beyond belief and his place in the annals of military history thoroughly deserved, although it is important to remember the words of an American Protocol-Officer, who absolutely correctly named Rudel "the typical Nazi Officer". Rudel's famous quotation was *"Verloren ist nur, wer sich selbst aufgibt" ("Lost are only those, who abandon themselves"*).


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## lesofprimus (Dec 25, 2006)

All of his numbers are subject to heavy criticism due to his propaganda pose.... However, even halved, his numbers are still unreal...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 26, 2006)

Either way he is by far the utmost skilled tank buster and the ace of all tank busters.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 31, 2006)

Agreed Chris...


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## abhiginimav (Jan 5, 2007)

WHHHAAAT!??!?!?! No douglas Bader?!?!? In my opinion, he was the best for having lost his legs, but never giving up on his country....so he took back into the air after the crash of his plane, in a moddified plane and continued service. True patriotism, gallantry and bravery and commitment!


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## lesofprimus (Jan 5, 2007)

He was on one of the original polls that this one here combined... He recieved no previous votes... U are the only one out of approximatly 477 voters to think he was the best fighter pilot ever....

Better do some more reading....


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## Marcel (Jan 17, 2007)

What about 'Sailor' Malan, maybe not the best, but one of? Okay, he had 'only' 27 confirmed kills, but his addition to british fighter tactics was most valuable, I think.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 17, 2007)

Marcel said:


> What about 'Sailor' Malan, maybe not the best, but one of? Okay, he had 'only' 27 confirmed kills, but his addition to british fighter tactics was most valuable, I think.



True - he was also shot down 12 or 13 times.


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## Marcel (Jan 18, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> True - he was also shot down 12 or 13 times.



Okay, that levels things a bit


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## David E. Wells (Jan 24, 2007)

Marcel said:


> Okay, that levels things a bit



Anyone want to talk about Lilyia (Lidiya) Lityvak or the "Night Witches"? As some say, the best pilots weren't always "aces"!


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## lesofprimus (Jan 24, 2007)

And those women were in no way shape or form the best in anything, except maybe putting on lipstick at 10,000 feet...


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## Raptor (Jan 27, 2007)

lesofprimus said:


> And those women were in no way shape or form the best in anything, except maybe putting on lipstick at 10,000 feet...



That is so funny. I always thought they were the early version of 'EW'... Convincing the enemy not to shoot... and the like...


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## Thumper (Jan 29, 2007)

isn't it funny how things go

"THE BEST"....what defines the best and who can determine what the best is. 

some here vote for the best on the number of kills

some here vote on the number of combats they survived

some here vote for the most charismatic character

and some here downgrade an individual on the basis of the aircraft they fly.


by asking for the BEST you ask for a personal opinion of those that weren't there, didn't fly with these people and most of all know nothing but facts written in a book somewhere.

a crap pilot in a crap plane will get blown out of the sky buy a good pilot in a good plane

moreover a crap pilot in an excellent plane will get done over by a veteran in a crap plane

and lastly...all though not the end note

a bloody good pilot will get done over buy a dam lucky shot...or by his own stupidity( read arrogance to some) or by his own AA fire in a heated moment.


I go back a few pages to Clive Caldwell
flew P40's in the middle east and Spitfires in SWPA
yet managed to shoot down at least 2 well known "Experten" in the Middle east with... "a piece of crap" and a total of 20 aircraft both Italian and German before being posted back to Australia to blow a further 8 Japanese out of the skies.

he also developed the techniques for deflection shooting that became standard tactics for ALL allied pilots

makes him a dam good pilot in my books...not because of his kills ...but his ability to use his equipment to the best of its ability.

Preddy flew p39's and p40's i believe in the SWPA before going to further fame in the ETO after he was downed and could no longer serve in the SWPA as per regs of the day

he then gets his hands on a P51 a great aircraft and makes a big name for himself.
does this make him one of the best?...or just a pilot with experience that learnt to use what he had at his disposal?

you cant claim...or vote on the BEST..unless all have the same equipment..the same training and the same ablities to interpret.

NO contest
their all the best at what they did...and the way they did it...for their countries


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 29, 2007)

Thumper said:


> NO contest
> their all the best at what they did...and the way they did it...for their countries



That I certainly agree with.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 31, 2007)

he does make good points but there's no way that'll stop the debate


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## renrich (Jan 31, 2007)

Your list is impressive But I believe Joe Foss ought to make the list. He made a lot of chicken salad out of chicken feathers.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 31, 2007)

Joe Foss was on the previous polls that eventually led to this one....

Foss got ZERO votes...


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## Lt. Mereel (Jan 31, 2007)

Erich Hartmann i might as well go with.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 31, 2007)

WTF is the matter with u kid??? In one thread u said he wasnt the best, then u state the exact opposite here...


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## lesofprimus (Jan 31, 2007)

mereel said:


> I wouldnt say the best, but he is up there.





mereel said:


> Erich Hartmann i might as well go with.


Well, which is it???


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## Erich (Jan 31, 2007)

as stated for obvious reasons in earlier threads Herr Hartmann was not the best the Luftwaffe had to offer. An excellent pilot then yes he was. having the highest score does not prove you are the best whatever that really means anyway. . . . .........


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## Bernhart (Jan 31, 2007)

I think this is one of those discussions where there will never be a right answer. there are other guys for consederation that are not on the list either. Veron woodward did well with p-40,s in the desert, you didn't mention any polish pilots, some who had sucesses in Poland and France with obselete airplanes, then there were the finns who did well in airplanes everyone considered obselete. not sure who of the list I would say was the best, maybe the German guy(can't think of his name right now) but he shot down 44 4 engine bombers


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## Erich (Jan 31, 2007)

Bernhart the chap you mention with 44 4-engine kills flying the 109G had his final score reduced to only 12/13.

most likely it would be assumed the pilot(s) with the most action in the most theaters in war with the most years of service - most missions gained, not necessary to have the most kill claims


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## lesofprimus (Jan 31, 2007)

Which is why Heinz Bar is my pick, with Ivan Kozhedub a close 2nd...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 1, 2007)

This is what I stated in the other thread.

Erich Hartmann was not the best there was and not the best technical fighter pilot, but he did end up the highest scoring ace of all times. Therefore for me he is the best of the best.

However now having said that and this is what I have said in other posts in this thread. The best fighter pilot in my opinion and I agree with Les on this is Heinz Baer.


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## zebraa51 (Mar 3, 2007)

The Reason i Picked Mr. Galland was not Only did he Have a position inn the German Luftwaffe being a General meaning he could have jes sit down and let the Young Pup`s Have a good Go at It But He Didn`t Plus If a Few Inn the Higher Ups That was Running The German Show would Have Just Listened Too Gen. Galland when he spoke up about a New Tool That They had at the Ready Meaning The Me262 The Germans Might have Faired why why Differant than the way things turned out inn the End...... Inn Other Words Mr. galland Lead By Example and he also Showed and Tuaght His Fledgling`s Very Very we`ll . Erich Hartmann is still the highest scoring Ace of all Times with his 352 confirmed Kills


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 3, 2007)

It is very hard to read your posts.

My spelling and stuff is not the best either but damn boy. Its no Inn but rather In. Also the grammar is horrid. 

I am not making fun of you or anything but it is just very hard to follow your posts. Is English your first language? If not that would explain it. 

By the way this site does have a spell checker.


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## lesofprimus (Mar 3, 2007)

> Erich Hartmann is still the highest scoring Ace of all Times with his 352 confirmed Kills


That number has never been "confirmed", nor will it ever, it is just the "socially" accepted number for historical purposes....


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## bigZ (Mar 3, 2007)

Zebraa its now thought that apart from his early comrades, Galland had a disdain for the pilots who were trained after 43. These later pilots nicknamed him the 'Perfume factory'. He was considered to be a snivelling lackey of Gorings.


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## lesofprimus (Mar 3, 2007)

> He was considered to be a snivelling lackey of Gorings.


Bullsh!t...


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## comiso90 (Mar 3, 2007)

So a magical genie gives me three wishes. The first wish will be a round robin tournement involving any ace with over 15 kills. 10 major warbirds will be randomly selected and the aces will have to choose their weapon. They will have one month to get familiar with their aircraft practicing with a Miles laser system.

Top Gun for Dead Aces

The other two wishes will involve a hot brunette spinner with a lot of passion


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## bigZ (Mar 4, 2007)

lesofprimus said:


> Bullsh!t...



I take it the above is an acronym? Perhaps Back up ludricous lies etc? 

I have read a few negative accounts from a variety of sources that counter the popular image of Galland. This is the only one I could remmember at short notice.

'Luftwaffe Figher Aircraft in Profile' by Clas Sundin Christer Bergstrom. Pg 76

"According to the version given by himself and his friends(notably Johannes Steinhoff and the US biographers Tolvier and Constable) after the war, Galland vehemently fought to defend his fighter pilots from Hitler and Goring. In reality, this applies only to Galland,s attitude towards his officer friends from the BOB days. towards the new fighter pilots of the "1943-1944 generation," the Generalmajor was rather harsh, commonly accusing them of cowerdice in the same manner as Goring, and furnishing them with unrealistic demands such as every Schwarm must "produce" at least one aerial victory on every combat mission. The young fighter pilots' worship of "their" Fighter General is mainly a myth originated by Galland and his exclusive top fighter pilots' clique after the war. In fact, many of the 1944 pilots despised the snobbish manners of Galland and found him fawning on the Nazi leadership. Among them, he was referred to as the "Perfume Factory." In April 1944, during one of Galland's inspection tours while flying this Fw190, he was intercepted by a group of Mustangs, who chased the "great fighter ace" half-way through Germany - this story was merrily spread through the whole Fighter Arm."

I have made no special study of Galland and am open to opinions to counter this argument. Perhaps I should have stated "it is now thought by some ....."


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 4, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> So a magical genie gives me three wishes. The first wish will be a round robin tournement involving any ace with over 15 kills. 10 major warbirds will be randomly selected and the aces will have to choose their weapon. They will have one month to get familiar with their aircraft practicing with a Miles laser system.



Mile system? 

That system is crap! Used it on our helicopters when we flew the field. Too many false shootdowns and not accurate at all.


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## MAV_406 (Mar 8, 2007)

any one who got above 15 kills in europe deserves some reconistion.


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## MAV_406 (Mar 8, 2007)

also photo recon pilots were among the best. if some of them were in armed fighters there would be alot more kills and alot more aces


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 8, 2007)

There were too many aces to count anyhow.


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## ohka345 (Mar 10, 2007)

love nishizawa and sakai


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## lesofprimus (Mar 10, 2007)

Do u like anything non-Japanese???


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## Matt308 (Mar 10, 2007)

Snuff films


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 11, 2007)

ohka345 you need to downsize your siggy. For a siggy it is too large.


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## Gnomey (Mar 11, 2007)

Profile said:


> *Age:*
> 11
> *Biography:*
> love japanese planes


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 11, 2007)




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## Marcel (Mar 11, 2007)

ohka345 said:


> love nishizawa and sakai



Sakai, wasn't that the guy who flew hundreds of miles with a bulet hole in his head? I thought I saw something on Discovery about him.


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## lesofprimus (Mar 11, 2007)

Yes, he lost an eye as well...


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## Matt308 (Mar 11, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> ohka345 you need to downsize your siggy. For a siggy it is too large.



That's mean. I gotta start looking at these guys profiles before I pig pile. I feel bad now. Phew. Glad that's overwith.


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## Lucky13 (Mar 11, 2007)

"Once committed to an attack, fly in at full speed. After scoring crippling or disabling hits, I would clear myself and then repeat the process. I never pursued the enemy once they had eluded me. Better to break off and set up again for a new assault. I always began my attacks from full strength, if possible, my ideal flying height being 22,000 ft because at that altitude I could best utilize the performance of my aircraft. Combat flying is based on the slashing attack and rough maneuvering. In combat flying, fancy precision aerobatic work is really not of much use. Instead, it is the rough maneuver which succeeds"

"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman."

"It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. The were made to fly as wingman, instead."

"You can have computer sights of anything you like, but I think you have to go to the enemy on the shortest distance and knock him down from point-blank range. You'll get him from in close. At long distance, it's questionable."

"I opened fire when the whole windshield was black with the enemy . . . at minimum range . . . it doesn't matter what your angle is to him or whether you are in a turn or any other maneuver."

"See, decide, attack, reverse."

"Every day kill just one, rather than today five, tomorrow ten . . . that is enough for you. Then your nerves are calm and you can sleep good, you have your drink in the evening and the next morning you are fit again."

"If he is superior then I would go home, for another day that is better."

Yep.... You all know this gentleman fellas. It's all from Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, Luftwaffe.


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## ohka345 (Mar 17, 2007)

I also saw the thing on Discovery about SAKAI!


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## Treize (Mar 18, 2007)

Can't believe Zemke and Blakeslee aren't choices. Guys who led the 2 most successful USAAF units and each ran up a respectable score of their own.

Heck, Blakeslee fought for over 3 years non-stop before finally being ordered out of combat and sent home.

Blakeslee would be my choice. Zemke second. Charles MacDonald third. Got a thing for combat leadership.


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## lesofprimus (Mar 18, 2007)

Zemke was on a previous poll and garnered ZERO votes, so he is not included in this poll...

Wierd how all 3 of ur choices are American.... Alittle biased perhaps???


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## Erich (Mar 18, 2007)

Treize you seem to forget that it was a US 9th AF fighter unit from my home state that led all USAF in the ETO fighter groups top scoring, the Pioneer Mustangs - 354th fg.


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## Treize (Mar 18, 2007)

Erich said:


> Treize you seem to forget that it was a US 9th AF fighter unit from my home state that led all USAF in the ETO fighter groups top scoring, the Pioneer Mustangs - 354th fg.




Only in a2a, both the 4th and 56th beat them in combined a2a and ground kills. 4th also lost fewer pilots and aircraft despite being in action 16 months longer. Don't know the stats on the 56th.

And on this topic, of course I'm liable to be a bit biased, my grandfather did serve under Blakeslee for 2 years. Zemke was just as effective a leader, he just went about it in a totally different way. And MacDonald was the Blakeslee of the Pacific. 

Zemke probably got 0 votes because most people just looks at how many kills a pilot got.

And I'm deleting the rest of this post because I'm tired, in a bad mood and this just got even more argumentative as it went.


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## lesofprimus (Mar 18, 2007)

> And on this topic, of course I'm liable to be a bit biased, my grandfather did serve under Blakeslee


And my Grandpa was a Blacksheep and flew with Pappy Boyington, but that doesnt make me so nearsighted that I cant see what Heinz Bar accomplished, killing on every front....


> Zemke probably got 0 votes because most people just looks at how many kills a pilot got.


I doubt that... There are some very intelligent members here, and while being a great leader and tactician matter, this Poll is about the Greatest Fighter Pilot, and fighter pilots shoot down enemy aircraft...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 18, 2007)

Treize said:


> And I'm deleting the rest of this post because I'm tired, in a bad mood and this just got even more argumentative as it went.



 Ohhhhh does someone not like it when someone disagrees with them? 

This discussion did not get argumentive at all, it was a discussion. Not everyone is going to agree or disagree with you. That is life, get over it and dont throw a temper tantrum....


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## Marcel (Mar 18, 2007)

ohka345 said:


> I also saw the thing on Discovery about SAKAI!


Yeah, well, gotta give the guy some credit, that was one hell of an accomplishment. Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction, don't you think?


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## Erich (Mar 18, 2007)

what a bunch of crock, aerial kills is very important and the 354th beat them both out.

who cares anyway really .......... 

Zemke was a hoot as I knew him. Overall the kills category really does not matter in the long run. It is the extent of service and in what theater and what enemy with what a/c. I still do not buy that Hartmann was the best overall


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## Bullockracing (Mar 19, 2007)

This is another of those "Greatest (insert whatever here)" polls, without clearly defined criteria for evaluation... Hmmmm... Aces are only made by scoring kills, so you either have to count total kills, or kill ratio based on kills per sortie. Hartmann gets the overall win - anyone got an idea on kill ratio - I know the two highest ratio German aces (and it ain't Hartman) - have to post up later...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 19, 2007)

If you are going to go off of scores then you have to go by who has the highest tally and in that case Hartmann is the greatest and in that case he is the best.

However you have to look at more than just kills and that is why based of books and reading I am with Les on this and in my opinoin and to me the best is Heinz Baer.


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## Hunter368 (Mar 19, 2007)

Baer, forsure. You can't look at total kills (too many easy kills to be had in Russia early in the war), you can't look at kills to sorties ratio either (the highest in the LW was some guy, I don't have my books at hand right now for his name, who had something like 75 sorties and close to that in kills. But all that proves was he was hot for a month or two). You want a guy who has fought vs all the allies and done well, fought on all or most fronts and done well.....That is Baer.

You want a guy who started and ended the war, he did that also. Here is his stats that I quickly just grabbed of the net.

He fought on the : Western Front, Eastern Front, Mediterranean

ASSIGNED COMBAT AIRCRAFT:
Messerschmitt Bf 109E/F/G
Focke-Wulf Fw 190A-7/A-8
Messerschmitt Me 262A-1a

AWARDS:
Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub und Schwertern
(Knights Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords)

VICTORIES:
220 Aerial Destroyed
59 Western Front
96 Eastern Front
65 Mediterranean Front

1000+ Combat Sorties 

So he shot down 124 western planes and 96 Russian planes. (including 16 kills in a jet)

He was a warrior of the top level by anyone's standards and IMHO (and many others) he was the best of the best from WW2 (either Axis or Allied).


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## Gnomey (Mar 19, 2007)

Agreed Hunter, that is why he got my vote as well.


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## lesofprimus (Mar 19, 2007)

And he accomplished all of that while being Goering's least favorite pilot as well... Only reason he never got the Diamonds...


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## Bullockracing (Mar 20, 2007)

lesofprimus said:


> And he accomplished all of that while being Goering's least favorite pilot as well... Only reason he never got the Diamonds...



Should've got a medal for that alone... Maybe an Allied one...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 20, 2007)




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## Erich (Mar 20, 2007)

should of worn a special RK and not awarded by "Fatty" yep Bär was hot


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## Heinz (Apr 23, 2007)

Johnson for me.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 23, 2007)

What is the kill ratio for these gentlemen?


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## lesofprimus (Apr 23, 2007)

Tough to call that up lucky....


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## Soren (Apr 25, 2007)

I'm going with Hartmann - he kept shooting down a/c till the end and mastered his aircraft to the fullest. He never lost a wingman either... All this while most fighting against superior numbers of enemy a/c.

He's the best if you ask me...

Marseille is a very close second.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 25, 2007)

Engaged the enemy 800 times, shot down 352, lost no wingman, shot down 6 enemies at three different occations.... Erich Hartmann


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## Erich (Apr 25, 2007)

I still say forget some of these guys with easy kills, and look towards the night fighter chaps, probably overall the German and even the RAF were the best in the war flying at night closed in with bombers, the Mossies diving down and trying to escort RAF heavies and still trying to get behind/below German nfs to pop them.

The guys on the Ost front I have to hand it to them with heavy Bf 110G's and then later the Ju 88G-1 and G-6 against far slower ( in most cases if you do not count the B-25 ) and inferior Soviet types, flying extremely low and getting thumped by the ever present Soviet flak, flaps down and short bursts so you wouldn't collide with your prey ....... a totally unknown and crazy part of the war


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## timshatz (Apr 25, 2007)

Erich said:


> I still say forget some of these guys with easy kills



Agreed. Superior Aircraft, Superior Tactics, Experienced Airmen. Even the Russians admitted that their pilots had a phobia of sorts (not all, certainly not the Guards Regiments) that was previlent. 

Somebody made a really good point earlier in this thread about the sortie/kill ratio. There was a German pilot who had something like a 1 to 1 ratio. Very close. I believe he was knocked down after shooting down 70 Russians. Collieded with a Lagg or something like that. 

Now that is really impressive.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 27, 2007)

I did, just earlier. Would be interesting to know I have to say. Hartmann flew 1400 odd missions and engaged the enemy 800 times in those 1400+ flights...
Wonder what the top 20 would look like in kill ratios?


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## Dragontech64 (May 17, 2007)

I am surprised by a missing name here, Francis Gabreski, jug pilot, multiple ace in WW2 and jet ace in the Korean War, not many aces that did it in 2 wars.


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## lesofprimus (May 18, 2007)

Korea has no bearing on this Poll, and Gabreski was on a previous Poll and got zero votes....

There were just too many who were considered better than he...


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## Lucky13 (May 18, 2007)

I think only 7 American pilots managed to become Aces in two wars, I could remember wrong though....


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## Dragontech64 (May 20, 2007)

lesofprimus said:


> Korea has no bearing on this Poll, and Gabreski was on a previous Poll and got zero votes....
> 
> There were just too many who were considered better than he...



SOry, I didn't know about the earlier poll, just started in here recently, and haven't seen everything. As for my statement on his Korean war record, that was included to show his skill. But, if he's already been voted down in prior polls, who am I to argue?


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## drgondog (Jun 2, 2007)

I know this is an oldie but I just found the Poll. I vote for Egon Mayer first and then Bar.

Both fought in the most hostile environments, were superb fighters and leaders - and tangled with B-17s and escorts in daylight until the war was over (Bar) or KIA (Mayer). Mayer was KIA on 2 March 1944. Had he survived the war he would have been one of the highest probability top scorer in the West.

On the far side Saburo Sakai was one he!!uva fighter pilot - 

No slouches with any choice. 

We (US) had a lot of great pilots but survival factor of hundreds of combats was never tested to enable a fair comparison with guys that fought in desparate times for two years or more like the early Russians or the late German and Japanese pilots.


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## renrich (Jun 2, 2007)

It would have been interesting to see what Joe Foss's score would have been if he had been in combat as long as some of the Japanese and Germans. All his kills were in an F4F4, not he most sprightly of a/c against Japanese pilots who were still very skilled. In fact he may have seen action against Saburo Sakai. His living conditions on Guadalcanal were probably as bad as any pilot experienced anywhere. They were usually outnumbered, the A6M which accounted for many of his kills was probably superior to the Wildcat and the maintenance of the Navy and Marine a/c on the Canal I amsure left much to be desired.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 2, 2007)

With Foss' situation, it was more because of excellent tactics and his superior leadership, not his skill or aircraft that allowed him to run the score he did.... Foss has admitted as such to my own ears...

Once the Zeros/Zekes advantages/disadvantages were realized, things got a whole lot better in the Pacific...


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## renrich (Jun 2, 2007)

Thx Erich, but wasn't Foss an excellent shot?


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## lesofprimus (Jun 2, 2007)

Erich??? Dont u mean les or Dan???

Foss did infact an excellent eye for deflection shots...


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Jun 2, 2007)

Didn't the P-51D have a gunsight that had automatic deflection, so the Pilot no longer had to shoot outside the target circle, just aim inside the cross hairs? That way, you don't have to lead an enemy plane with your bullets in front of him.

Interesting, but then you would never learn that skill of deflection shooting.


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## renrich (Jun 3, 2007)

Sorry Les, I was confused, not unusual these days. I do know the US Navy and I presume the Marines to were well trained in deflection shooting which was aided by the good visibility over the nose of the Wildcat. I seem to remember that Foss had a lot of experience with wingshooting as a youngster.


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## Lucky13 (Jun 3, 2007)

How do you count the kill ratios for these gentlemen? What would a top 20 list look like if you look at the kill ratio instead for the total in kills?


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## drgondog (Jun 3, 2007)

Soundbreaker - the K-14 came to the ETO in small quantities in June 1944 and effectively equipping about 1/2 of 8th FC by late September, 1944.

The only thing you really had to do is dial in the wingspan (which the USAAF kindly helped by naming each selection 'Me 109', Fw190, for fighter pilots who were memory challenged, etc).

Then just 'fly the pipper' and the gyro would automatically 'compute' the solution. As long as the pipper inside the ring was where you wanted to shoot - well there you were... but it did not compute trajectory for the 300+ shots

The radar computing gunsight in Korea was even better as it would also put trajectory into the equation whereas the K-14 did not.

Regards,

Bill


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## claidemore (Jan 28, 2008)

I'm new to these forums, so just found this poll. 

I'd have to say the best fighter pilot of WWII was 
*S.L. Bert Houle 418 Squadron RCAF*. 
He didn't have as many kills as a lot of guys, but he did one thing that few others can claim. 

He never lost a single pilot in any flight that he led. North Africa, Sicily and Italy, flying Hurricanes, Spit Mk V's and Spit Mk VIII's. 

That's the guy I would have wanted to fly with.


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## pbfoot (Jan 28, 2008)

claidemore said:


> I'm new to these forums, so just found this poll.
> 
> I'd have to say the best fighter pilot of WWII was
> *S.L. Bert Houle 418 Squadron RCAF*.
> ...


418 RCAF never flew Spits nor Hurricanes or in the middle east it was intruder squadron based in the UK perhaps you mean 417sqn RCAF which was active in those theatres he also flew with 213 and 145 RAF Squadrons prior to 417 .


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 28, 2008)

claidemore said:


> I'm new to these forums, so just found this poll.
> 
> I'd have to say the best fighter pilot of WWII was
> *S.L. Bert Houle 418 Squadron RCAF*.
> ...



That's more luck than skill - and there were many who never lost a pilot on their flight.


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## Soren (Jan 28, 2008)

I still say Erich Hartmann, although Nowotny Marseilles are my favorites. 

Anyone ever mentioned Barkhorn ? I'd say he deserves a mention.

Btw, while we're talking amazing pilots lets not forget about the Finnish pilots, some really skilled pilots there!


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## Freebird (Jan 29, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> Dude the P-40 was a piece of crap.. The pilots that sometimes had the horrible luck to have to fly the P-40 sometimes were a different story......
> 
> 
> Thats a bunch of crap... I doubt seriously that that was the case......





FLYBOYJ said:


> I don't know Les, I really wouldn't call the P-40 a total piece of crap, maybe a little sh*tty. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to face an ME-109 or a -190 in one, but the "Tigers" did do well with it, but as you pointed out earlier, "PILOT SKILL."
> 
> Many Commonwealth nations used the P-40 and it served them well. In the ground support role, it did well considering it was available in numbers.



Was the P-40 unpopular at the time? (1941 - 1942)

Unless you got a P-38 or a Spitfire, was the P-40 that much worse than the alternatives? (I mean Allies aircraft of course, Hurricane, P-39, Buffalo)

It would probably beat having to fly in a p-35, P-36, Defiant, Roc, or Gladiator....


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## claidemore (Jan 29, 2008)

> 418 RCAF never flew Spits nor Hurricanes or in the middle east it was intruder squadron based in the UK perhaps you mean 417sqn RCAF which was active in those theatres he also flew with 213 and 145 RAF Squadrons prior to 417 .



oops, Yer right pbfoot, it was 417. All my Spitfire books are in storage, and I was relying on memory, which probably isn't the best! lol


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 29, 2008)

freebird said:


> Was the P-40 unpopular at the time? (1941 - 1942)
> 
> Unless you got a P-38 or a Spitfire, was the P-40 that much worse than the alternatives? (I mean Allies aircraft of course, Hurricane, P-39, Buffalo)
> 
> It would probably beat having to fly in a p-35, P-36, Defiant, Roc, or Gladiator....



I think its coming down to say the P-40 was a very under-rated fighter.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 29, 2008)

There were several polls that lead up to this one guys.... Barkhorn was on a previous poll and got zero votes.....


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## pbfoot (Jan 29, 2008)

I'd like to nominate Lloyd Chadburn as possibly the best allied pilot in the eto with 14 destoyed 6 probables 6 damaged 2 eboats destroyed , while escorting 60 9th airforce(they called him the angel) bombing missions lost only a B 26 . In one mission on 3 nov 43 of the 15 109's attempting to intercept the 26's 9 were shot down. He was killed in a mid air shortly after D Day


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## Soren (Jan 30, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> Barkhorn was on a previous poll and got zero votes.....



Pretty sad as he was an excellent pilot, arguably in the top 3.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 30, 2008)

Agreed Soren....


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## drgondog (Jan 30, 2008)

earlier I advocated Mayer and Bar but would never argue against Barkhorn or several others in the list.

When I first saw the list the several Japanese aces (nishizawa and sakai) that fought (and survived) all the way, often with a/c that were less capable were also clear candidates. Those two went a long way proving it's the guy not the a/c - just like Foss, etc

No way to objectively pick a 'best' from my perspective as many 'bests' were KIA by 'lesser skilled' pilots? so, best 'who didn't make it' versus 'best who did' might also be a category


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## domin323 (Feb 22, 2008)

Hello everyone!!!

I would like to mention about Witold Urbanowicz. He was flying in BoB (303 squadron) and later in China (Flying Tigers). He scored 28 kills.
On P-40 fought against 6 zeros once , shot down two of them.


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## lesofprimus (Feb 22, 2008)

While moments of individual heroism are great points to a truly gifted pilot, to overlook what the Luftwaffe Aces went through, for as long as they did; to rack up 100's of kills on different fronts, is beyond the scope of what a guy with 28 or 40 or even 60 kills can hope to achieve...

Heinz Baer, with 132 votes so far ranking him 3rd, is in my opinion the greatest ever.... Marseille most likely had it in the bag if it werent for the damn chute, and Hartmanns inferior opponents detracts from his whoppin unconfirmed score...


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## drgondog (Feb 22, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> While moments of individual heroism are great points to a truly gifted pilot, to overlook what the Luftwaffe Aces went through, for as long as they did; to rack up 100's of kills on different fronts, is beyond the scope of what a guy with 28 or 40 or even 60 kills can hope to achieve...
> 
> Heinz Baer, with 132 votes so far ranking him 3rd, is in my opinion the greatest ever.... Marseille most likely had it in the bag if it werent for the damn chute, and Hartmanns inferior opponents detracts from his whoppin unconfirmed score...



Baer (Bar with the funny 'a') is my personal choice. I don't know how I would ever be totally objective about this discussion which is why I didn't have a lot of posts on it.. 

SUBJECTIVELY, the guys that confronted quality and quantity and thrived have to be separated and put in one bucket that says 'look here first'.. the second bucket is the pot with aces having the highest totals against tough to very tough opposition. IF the second bucket has a mix of opposition, look at the totals against the tough opposition and compare against the first

Combine the top guys with the top opposition and look at the 'epoch' in which they scored. Would Marseille have scored as fast as he did battling RAF and USAAF in equal quality fighters in greater numbers? as Egon Mayer, Bar, etc?

That is where my head is on this - and I 'flung' a dart at the top three for me and it was Bar...with deepest respect to Rall, Barkhorn and Hartmann.


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## lesofprimus (Feb 22, 2008)

Agreed, as we usually do....


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## Burmese Bandit (Dec 5, 2008)

My vote...it was close, as things are always with these type of polls, is for Marseille.

Why?

All the pilots on this list were great pilots and great shots, but Marseille was IMHO the greatest of all due to his special talent: deflection shooting. Hartman was a superlative ambush pilot, with great tactical awareness. But HJM was that AND he had a laser rangefinder in his eyes and a ballistics computer in his brain!


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## kool kitty89 (Dec 6, 2008)

We've had some more recent threads on this btw: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/news/vote-best-pilot-poll-12724.html

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/best-wwii-fighter-pilot-12686.html
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/best-ww2-fighter-pilot-poll-round-2-a-12997.html


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## Burmese Bandit (Dec 6, 2008)

Will go there. Thanks...


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## Timppa (Dec 14, 2008)

I still would have voted Gregory Boyington.
Boyington died on Jan. 11, 1988, and is buried in Arlington National Cemetery. In summing up his own life, he wrote at the end of his memoir, "If this story were to have a moral, then I would say, 'Just name a hero and I'll prove he's a bum.'"


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## Amsel (Dec 14, 2008)

Great antecdote!


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## Yerger (Jun 12, 2009)

Among Luft aces for pure skill it's generally agreed Rall was best. If not injured for a year would probably have beat Hartmann.

in career aspects other than flight skills, awards, etc, then combining all, Galland has always been my favorite Luft pilot. Happy to have had the chance to meet and speak with him several times.

Best night ace and leader, Werner Streib

and most overlooked of the higher decorated and scroring Luft aces: Hermann Graf


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## Von Frag (Jun 12, 2009)

I dunno, Joe Foss is not on the list as well as some others at Guadalcanal. What he and others did with what they had was amazing. They took on the best the IJN had and at that time they were still VERY good. If we flew our pilots into the ground like the Luftwaffe did, I'm sure some of them would have reached triple digits as well. I recall in another thread that Robert Johnson while in combat got his kills faster than most other aces in their respective time frames.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 12, 2009)

And he won the poll


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 13, 2009)

Heinz Bär was a truly amazing pilot. While is not my favorite (that title does go to Hartmann for certain reasons), I do think he was the greatest pilot of WW2.


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## Amsel (Jun 13, 2009)

I agree that Heinz Bär might have been the best. He was a great pilot and leader as well. I don't know how any of those German aces survived the war. Bär led his men very well when he was with JG1 against overwhelming odds. He also wasn't afraid to argue with the system, making him unpopular with Goerring.

The interesting thing is only 79 of his victories were on the eastern front. All the rest of his victories were against British and American aircraft and pilots. Including 16 in a 262 making him a jet ace as well. That really makes him stand out in my mind.

It is hard to look at just score and figure out the greatest though. There are many pilots who did not fly as many missions as Bär orHartmann, but had much higher kill ratios, such as Wilhelm Batz, Gunther Rall and Otto Kittel, who if kill ratio to kills and missions flown are taken into consideration; score very high. Much higher then Hartmann or Bär.


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## Yerger (Jun 15, 2009)

Amsel said:


> I agree that Heinz Bär might have been the best. He was a great pilot and leader as well. I don't know how any of those German aces survived the war. Bär led his men very well when he was with JG1 against overwhelming odds. He also wasn't afraid to argue with the system, making him unpopular with Goerring.
> 
> The interesting thing is only 79 of his victories were on the eastern front. All the rest of his victories were against British and American aircraft and pilots. Including 16 in a 262 making him a jet ace as well. That really makes him stand out in my mind.
> 
> It is hard to look at just score and figure out the greatest though. There are many pilots who did not fly as many missions as Bär orHartmann, but had much higher kill ratios, such as Wilhelm Batz, Gunther Rall and Otto Kittel, who if kill ratio to kills and missions flown are taken into consideration; score very high. Much higher then Hartmann or Bär.



That ratio is why I voted for Rall


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## drgondog (Jun 16, 2009)

Yerger said:


> That ratio is why I voted for Rall



Rall is one of my favorite pilots along with Olds. 

Amsel made the right observation abour Baer however. He fought, scored and survived the war against top notch adversaries throughout his caree, as well as B-17s and B-24s with many opportunities for the 'golden B B".

So many Experten scored big in the East and died in the West - but not Baer. Given that Rall was whacked out for rest of the war within a month of Western Ops, one can only speculate on the fate of Hartmann and Barkhorn had they come to the Battle of Germany at the same time. Great pilots but would have faced a pretty rough war in May 1944 over Germany.


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## carbonlifeform (Jul 22, 2009)

I gotta say Adolph Galland. Not just because of his kill record but because of the kind of person he was. During a war and belonging to a nation that had a lot of barbarity to it, Galland had class. As a general in the LW, when downed allied pilots were brought to his HQ, there was no interrogation. Galland broke out his finest drink, made them as comfortable as possible, and he and the pilot would talk about flying. He figured the pilot was going to be in for a rough enough time AFTERwards. Then again, I may be biased having had the opportnity of meeting him many years ago, and despite the obvious aristocracy in his blood, he was very approachable and answered my many questions.


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## Clay_Allison (Jul 22, 2009)

Eino Ilmari Juutilainen - 94 Kills Flying for Finland in a worn out Bf109.


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## gepp (Oct 17, 2009)

i had to choose Marseille is one of the best fighter pilots of all time his abilities were unique and unmatched in the skys.
shame that Australian ace clive "killer"caldwell wasn't on the poll he shot down german and jap fighters.
great poll anyways.

Gepp


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## piet (Oct 18, 2009)

HELMUT LENT 
111 airial victory's.
kommodore of NJG3.
Wore the diamonds to the knight's Cross..the first of only two nightfigthers.
looks good in his uniform.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 18, 2009)

piet said:


> HELMUT LENT



And why do you think so?

It is much better to tell people why than just blurt out one name posts, it helps the conversations continue...


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## Guns'n'Props (Oct 20, 2009)

You guys sure think up difficult polls - it's like getting a kid to choose JUST ONE item from a candy store

Anyway, I went for Marseille for the following reasons:
1.) He was a brilliant shot.
2.) He seemed quite happy to"mix it" rather than the standard zoom and boom.
3.) He was innovative.
4.) He liked Jazz
5.) Apparently he was also very popular with the girls.

... what more could one want.


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## gepp (Oct 25, 2009)

On what iv read i personally think gunther rall was the best and IMO if Rall didn't have his thumb shot off he would of exceeded hartmann's score of 352 he was very skilled fighter pilot and responsible and smart leader new when to call the shots.
The man was tuff as Nails seriously he broke his back in three places Doctors told him was finished as a pilot and he would not be able to walk again but defied the odds and returned to combat almost a year later. now that's determination.


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## Locke (Jan 18, 2010)

I'd have to pick Galland, just because he downed 50+ Spitfires, the majority while using a 109. To be fair though, I don't know enough about the other Aces to make a fair assessment, so I'm really choosing my favorite =P


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## -JJH- (Jun 9, 2010)

I'd also go with finnish top ace Eino Ilmari Juutilainen - final tally 94,17 kills. App. 1/3 of his kills were achieved while flying Brewster fighter. 2/3 of his kills were achieved with Bf109 - couple also with Fokker D.XXI.

More remarkable, no enemy pilot was ever able to score hits into Juutilainen's plane - the damage that his aircraft sustained during operational sorties, was due to AA fire!

-JJ-


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## smilefan (Apr 21, 2011)

Voting for Sakai based on the 24 June 1944 incident over Iwo Jima where he
fought off 15 U.S. Navy Grumman F6F Hellcats singlehandedly, in a chase that lasted over 20 minutes. Landed unharmed, without a single bullet hole in his Zero.
Plus, he performed this airborne miracle with only ONE eye!

How many other WWII jocks could have passed a test like that?

Cool and fun thread. Impossible to choose just "one best". Too many
different circumstances. Still, Germans that shot down ~50 Spitfires,
Russians that scored heavily on the LW in 2nd class planes with gunsights painted
on the windshield, or Nishizawa who apparently downed over 40 Wildcats, Hellcats, Corsairs
and P-38's in one-on-one dogfighting, and never downed himself even once 

Those rise to the top in my book.


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## MaximusGR (Jun 25, 2011)

Voted "Jochen", aka Hans Marseille. 

He had to the maximum all the qualities a fighter pilot needs to excel..Master of his machine, mastery of tactics, unique gunnery skill, perfect eysight..add to that a great sense of humor and an easy going attitude far from that of a military professional.


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## war eagle (May 13, 2012)

I,ve gone for Aleksandr Pokryshkin on this one.I base my vote on many factors not just outright kills which is not telling the entire story especially in Pokryshkins case.The first factor i examined is his tactical input and overall contribution to his airforces success and his re-writing of the VVS combat tactic training manual to improve pilot performance and reduce losses was pivotal to the change in fortune against the Luftwaffe later in the Eastern front campaign.Secondly he had a gift that he could climb into any fighter type quickly evaluate its good and bad traits and adapt his flying accordingly nobody else in the VVS managed to score kills in such a diverse selection of aircraft than old "100".The next factor i,m onto going back to kill scores i think history and historians criminally under scored Pokryshkin by as many as 45 to 50 kills due to a variety of means,his own log books and that of his own squadron colleagues place his score nearer to 90 in fact Pokryshkins own kill record puts him at in excess of 100!.During 1941 at the height of the Luftwaffe onslaught his confirmed kill documents on 15 enemy shot down were destroyed during a hurried evacuation from an airbase so not recorded,he also shot down at least 15 enemy aircraft while illegally flying combat missions while officially grounded by stalin unclaimed for obvious reasons!.Also he on many occasions gave his kills to fallen comrades to help feed their families a common practice according to other pilots testimony,so even with a modest 40% probabilty that these additional claims are correct his true score would be closer to 85.A brilliant fighter pilot and certainly the greatest allied pilot of ww2.


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## vinnye (Aug 11, 2012)

Difficult decision, Bong, Galland and Pattle well worth noting.
But my vote went for Johnnie Johnson.
My reasoning being he shot down only other fighter planes. His opposition were usually well trained and experienced LW pilots in good fighters.
He was also extremely well thought of by his peers. He also served after the war in other conflicts.


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