# Anybody know where this FW190 was



## fisher972002 (Dec 10, 2007)

Hi all,
My Grandfather was in the 5th Armored Division, 85th Reconnaissance Cavalry Squadron Mechanized. They trekked across northern Germany, starting near Mulhausen, then to DUsseldorf, Hannover, pic of the autobahn then across eventually stopping at the River Elbe and stopping west of Berlin. I have a photo of him next to a ****e Wolf FW 190, Looks like an A not a D. Does anybody know where this photo might have been taken as far as what area the airplane flew?
Here is alink to the path taken by the 5th AD.
http://www.5ad.org/5ADmap.html

Thanks for your time.


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## ccheese (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm sure Erich or Wurger will try to track this for you.

Good pic, tho...

Charles


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## Erich (Dec 10, 2007)

late war Fw 190A-8 or A-9 from II./JG 301, note the red horizontal gruppe bar over the yellow/red band. this was my cousins gruppe Fisher

of note all the armament has been removed, the upper cowling mg 131's the inboard and outboard 20mms as well. Most likely an A-8 but the A-9's.....some of them when not flying high escort duties with US P-51's also had the outboard 20mm's installed. wish we could see a number on the fuselage.

a very historical and beautiful photo Fisher...........thank you for sharing as JG 301 late war 190's are few in number, usual shot up, or beaten up wrecks

I may just send you a private, and yes it is Röte 22 of 6./JG 301 at Langensalza

E `


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## Njaco (Dec 10, 2007)

I think Erich would definately know because it looks like a machine from JG 301 maybe IV./JG 301. The colored Defense Reich bands might be the colors for that Gruppe.

If so then maybe track which airfield they were based. Any idea of the date?


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## Njaco (Dec 10, 2007)

Erich yu beat me too it!!!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 10, 2007)

fisher972002 said:


> Hi all,
> My Grandfather was in the 5th Armored Division, 85th Reconnaissance Cavalry Squadron Mechanized. They trekked across northern Germany, starting near Mulhausen, then to DUsseldorf, Hannover, pic of the autobahn then across eventually stopping at the River Elbe and stopping west of Berlin. I have a photo of him next to a ****e Wolf FW 190, Looks like an A not a D. Does anybody know where this photo might have been taken as far as what area the airplane flew?
> Here is alink to the path taken by the 5th AD.
> http://www.5ad.org/5ADmap.html
> ...




You know its Focke-Wulf not ****e Wolf....



Sorry I am just giving you a hard time. Welcome to the forum.

Erich might be able to help you out but as for what area the airplane flew in, that was all of Europe my friend and all over Germany.



Njaco said:


> Erich yu beat me too it!!!



Yeah he beat me to it as well....


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## Erich (Dec 10, 2007)

sorry guys I was in a middle of an edit looking at pics of both sides of the bird and it's camo which gave it confirmation.

JG 301 surrender or left it's a/c all over Germany some of which in the strangest places as indeed some a/c were captured by the Soviets

and Fisher what will be around this Fw 190 will be many Blue-white Ju 88G-6 night fighters, Langensalza was a homing production airfield for the Junkers Ju 88G-6, and large enough airfield for many Lw a/c pilots to drop their a/c down and surrender them or have them maintained and just left in the chaos of wars end. In your photos that you want to enlarge and colorize please post however large or small some of the Junkers from this field if they are in your possession. I have quite a few from this time period and field from a photo collector so some other originals to be seen would be wonderful by all..........If I can help further please ask.


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## fisher972002 (Dec 10, 2007)

Gees,
Thanks for all the information guys...It's a black and white picture, I can't really see the yellow stripe.. I see the red stripe, is the yellob in front of it going vertically...

The Date, well It has to be Early 1945. I know because he was in France/Lux in fall of 1944, participated in the sigfried Line piercing on Sept 14th, 1944, he was one of the first soldiers in Germany.. THen they moved North through Belgium, this was post Bulge, There are other pictures, one of Hannover and the autobahn with this picture.

I know his Company D of hte 85th Recon Cavalry Squad Mechanized was in Belgium in March 1945, I have a photo of that that he marked.. So they left Belgium March and went across northern Germany stopping at the river Elbe west of Berlin..

I have a picture of him next to a P51 but I'll bet that was in England Pre-D-day and him in the passenger side of a B17, pretty cool..So based on the grass and such I would say since he was in a reconnaissance patrol unit, they were separate from the rest of the division and on their own, since only 4 of the original 24 guys survived the war, after hte Bulge they were a pretty small unit and I would guess this pictures was taken after March 1945 and could be anytime before June/July 1945?


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## Erich (Dec 10, 2007)

am not sure about early 45 on that Fisher as the armored division is there with plenty of Sherman tanks. the Ju 88G-6 night fighters are all over the field and in one case of one photo which you may or may not have shows at least 4-5 night fighters sitting on each others noses and rears in a line with 2-3 Shermans in front of them and a bunch of GI's milling over the Ju 88's. A while later but not too long one of the ETO P-61 squadrons was based there as well and used the field for operations once the Ju 88G-6's were dumped off the field and torn to pieces and burned squashed into a big debris pile(s).

I am talking about a horizontal red band which goes over the middle of the redband facing the tail and the yellow band before it. yes it is a black and white pic but take my word as truth on this please as I know of what I say, my cousin flew in 5./JG 301 and his personal numbered machine was white 2. this is red 22 of 6th staffel


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## fisher972002 (Dec 10, 2007)

you guys know your stuff.. Thanks...

Here are the pictures of him in the co-pilot seat of a B 17 Flying Fortress. and a pic of him next to a Mustang...

I wonder if these pictures were taken in England.. Were there B 17 bases in France or P 51 bases in France??


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## fisher972002 (Dec 10, 2007)

Thanks for the info Erich.
Legansalza is in Central Germany it looks like, So I would bet this plane was maybe based there and landed in Northern Germany where the 85th Recon Cavalry would have ran across it in the field.


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## fisher972002 (Dec 10, 2007)

OK Erich,
I am not questioning you , I just couldn's see where you said the yellow stripe is.. OK, I'm onboard with you now....

I know that the 85th Recon according to My Grandfather's notes/memoirs, they had the M8 armored 6 wheel armored car, Those things were flimbsy and would be destroyed by a mine he said, can you imagine.. Lots of those M8 Greyhounds were destroyed... One story a German 88 Shot one, it was supposed to be his car.. He had a fresh soldier in their 3 man crew. He jammed the gun on that M8 because he didn't unload the leather bad that held the spent shells..

SO my Grandpa being the radio man, pulled the car over.. They unstuck the gun, got back in line.. The M8 that took his place in front, they went down the road a few hundred feet and around the corner an 88 anti aircraft gun shot the lead car, he said there was nothing left except some melted metal and a few rims.... He had many close calls like that...

He wrote that they had the M8 all the way until January.. Then in Early january 1945 their unit was equipped with a light tank.. I'm not sure if it was a sherman tank...

Here is a picture of his M8.. This was taken in Mulhausen, Germany Fall 1944.


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## fisher972002 (Dec 10, 2007)

And here is the light tank they used.. His notes say their outfit received the heavier better tank to better guard against land mines that were blowing up and killing soldiers in the thin metal floored M8. The tanks were received after Jan, so I don't know if that helps date the aircraft picture?
Does anybody know what kind of tank this is?


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## fisher972002 (Dec 10, 2007)

Wow,
SO you recognize the airfield, it is Legansalza where you have pictures of JU 88's? I'll have to check through the rest of his pictures, I know there were pictures of the AutoBahn in Hannover, and a few German tanks they are sitting on, I don't think there are anymore airplane pictures, but he has lots of pictures, I think there is one of a ME 262 Jet they found in the woods, I'll have to check the next time I am at my Grandma's house.


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## Erich (Dec 10, 2007)

if you would bring any other pics to the site then that would be great.

~ ok I'll try to make this more clear to you and others. Langensalza was a satellite field and not a main Lw airfield except for a holding area. I think due to all the factory like holding buildings here this was a Ju 88G-6 night fighter holding area where the Junkers were marked and tested before being sent to their night fighter groups, because none of the Ju 88G-6 had the field codes of the night fighter wings applied. 

~ the pilot of red 22 the Fw 190A-8? landed here and probably ran off before the end of the war. no-one else thought about taking it back to the JG 301 unit because most probably a lack of necessary fuels and this was the case of the Ju 88G-6's there as well as other found fighters and bombers at this very large airfield testing ground.

hows that for an explanation ? 8)


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## DBII (Dec 10, 2007)

Nice phots. I cannot wait to see the Me 262. My guess would be that the light tank is a M3/M5 Steward. I am interested in the changes to the main gun. I will let you know what I find out. 

DBII


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## fisher972002 (Dec 10, 2007)

Cool,
Thanks Erich for the explanation.


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## Erich (Dec 10, 2007)

sure Fisher and hey man you owe me 1 copy of that Fw 190A-8 photo in a 5x7 if it works out ......  

here is another thought for your files on the time line in Langensalza.

here is the kciker bud : On April 24, 1945 the ETO's US 425th night fighter squadron moved to code R-2 airfield which was Langensalza

this is why the armored division and P-61's can be seen in the background of some Ju 88G-6 photos. the P-61 squadron worked out the facilities and di not fly till May 1, 1945 flying towards Prague and the eastern sections of Germany..........bet the Soviets loved that.

E ~


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## fisher972002 (Dec 10, 2007)

Erich,
I just dropped the photos off at a professional photo shop to get scanned.. I'll email you the files from the CD.. He says he'll put them on a CD, and then you can get them precesses an put on a picture at Walgreens/Walmart where ever.. Let me know if you want any other pictures..
I'll try to find those ones of the ME 262.. LOL I remember it, it's like by the edge of some woods and my Grandfather and 2 freinds are next to it, it it a pretty neat picture..


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## Erich (Dec 10, 2007)

let me know what works out best for pics as I am very interested in what he has taken...

the 262 could be several places really, northern Germany for JG 7 jets or south in Bavaria for the KG 51 near München ~ Neubiberg where many Ju 88G-6's were also found. In Bavaria it was not at all uncommon for the fighter bomber jets to fly right off the autobahn in March-May of 45 as any known airfield was getting busted up pretty bad by US fighters-bombers. the 262 pic sound pretty neat

hey is your grand-dad still with us or passed on ?

E ~


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## Wurger (Dec 10, 2007)

Hi Fisher
Because Erich was first with infos on the Fw190A8 or A9 I can add only I agree with him totally.But as far as the tank is concerned the second pic shows M8 Scott or another name 75 mm Howitzer Motor Carriage M8 so it wasn't a tank but a self-propelled howitzer.This vehicle was assembled with parts of M5 Stuart or M5A1 Stuart light tank and used by US recco cavalery units.


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## Erich (Dec 10, 2007)

so am I assuming then this is the recon element of that Armored division with light fast mobile tanks ? excuse me if I missed something..

ok I re-read some postings, the 262 may have been then JG 7 the guys on their way towards Berlin as Fisher mentions

will wait and see


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## Wurger (Dec 10, 2007)

Erich said:


> so am I assuming then this is the recon element of that Armored division with light fast mobile tanks ? excuse me if I missed something..



Hi Erich,
Was it to me or to Fisher?


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## fisher972002 (Dec 10, 2007)

Wurger,
Yes, He was in the 85th Recon Cav Squad Mech, and it was a small outfit, only 20 or so guys... So what you are saying is that tank with the short turret gun, is a combination of a few tanks, the M5 and Stuart.. Because I've looked on the net searching "Light Tanks in 85th Recon, 5th AD and can't find much tanks with the short snout, or short turret gun like this one has.. All of them have long guns on them..

Erich
My Grandfather is still with us, but he is in the later stages of alzheimers and is in a sad state as his speech is really bad and can't communicate...

But we have gotten out of him all we can, my mom wrote down all his experiences in multiple pages, and he took lots of pictures.. He took3 rolls of film from Bergen Belzen conc camp, he was there 2 days after it was found, it was crazy... He made the mistake of giving 2 or the 3 rolls to the local german film processor, and they "lost " it and he never got them back, but he has pictures of prisoners and the camp only about 10 pictures, but they are craaazy..... unbelievable..
We have all his discharge papers, he received a silver star although we don't know what from because the records for that were destroyed by a fire in the 70's in Kansas city  

We had him go through most of the pictures, some of the stuff he didn't remember exact locations.. The Belgium forest "arndennes" was the closest thing to HELL he kept saying how cold it was over the winter and soo many friends died there......

He has a German Ruger pistol. It's in perfect condition, stamped manufactured 1938 with it's black leather carryer from a german officer.. Also we have a compass from that officer,and a leather mapbook holder, some neat stuff..


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## fisher972002 (Dec 10, 2007)

Erich,
It would have to be Northern Germany, He was never in Bavaria, he was close in Baden Wurttenburg, Wallendorf is sort of close to that area, 2 or 3 hour drive to Hiedelberg I remember.. But I know he was not in Southern Germany/Bavaria, he ran across france from Utah beach D -day plus 6.. Then they raced to close the Falaise Gap in the track cars to cut off the Germans, liberated Paris (His M8 was the 3rd Vehicle through the Arch de triumph at the parade)then they went to Diekirch and Liberated LUX, then went north, then across Belgium, then across N germany to Berlin via Dusseldorf, Hannover.

There just isn't a lot of records for the 85th Recon, they were all over the place and away from the main divisions and sort of fly by the seat, search and find outfit... Very different than most of the accounts you hear of large groups of men fighting like in "A bridge too far" or something.. His stuff were a lot of little skirmishes, they would poke the German defenses, see what happens, then race back, poke and prod.. They ran the hell out of those M8 armored cars and Light tanks, they would steal gas from other vehicles, wherever, whenever to keep going because their lives depended on the vehicles moving and being 'quick on their feet" as he put it..


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## Erich (Dec 10, 2007)

Wurger it was to both of you...........

Fisher keep those memories alive as they fade way to fast, my own grandfathers died really before I was awake enough to hear of their stories, one was a WW 1 veteran, German fighting for the US forces, the other up in years actually at the time of the war went stealth like into Latvia and saw the multitudes of horrors that just would not go away later in his life. this is just from my American side of the Familie only. the German side is a abit more secretive and I am only finding out things from way back even today.

hang onto all momentos from a time gone by you will be glad you did.

side note about JG 7 during 1945 ~ airfields all over the place on grassy strips even and in eastern Germany protecting Berlin.

Brandeburg-Briest and then later Parchim and finally in Czechslovakia at Saatz-Rusin-Prauge.

still may have been a fighter bomber unit they stumbled upon, though I have another idea as well

well get that 1 roll developed when you can and post pics and let us all scratch our heads to pinpoint where he was all along his epic journey during the war....

one of my uncles served in a US artillery battalion and in similiar vein strated out from the Normandie beaches into France, central Germany when the war ended, but sadly 99 % of his pics are destroyed and lost forever. I nearly cried as a young boy hearing this from my aunt who is still living, my uncle passed away years ago from the evil cancer and I know of what you speak when you say Altzheimers............in our familie as well on myn wifes side


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## fisher972002 (Dec 10, 2007)

Wurger,
There you go that is the exact tank
Howitzer Motor carrier M8

Howitzer Motor Carriage M8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ok, that explains why he has both pictures of the armored car and the light tank labeled M8.. One is the "Greyhound" the other is the Howitzer 75mm light tank...
The Greyhound is the crazy one that a hole would blow up in the floor of it when you ran over a land mine.. That killed a lot of guys.... But it was soo fast, that's what they closed the Falaise Gap with.... But he was happy to ge the Heavier M8 Howitzer tank after January as it offered lots more protection!

Thanks guys


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## fisher972002 (Dec 10, 2007)

Erich,
You said that that Wulf 190 was the same squadron as your cousin flew, that's pretty cool.. Does your cousin have any accounts.. That's a pretty small world huh..Wow.


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## Erich (Dec 10, 2007)

ok he was in II. gruppe or group. this was made up of 4 staffels or squadrons. My cousin was the in the 5th, the Fw 190 red 22 that you have was from the 7th staffel.
my cousin Siegfried Baer was KIA on 26 November 1944. I am still looking for any type of information on his missions though I have quite a bit really from US sources and Bill who posts here. the Familie in Germany does not talk much of the times back then as the losses were just too deep and still are.

E ~


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## Wurger (Dec 10, 2007)

fisher972002 said:


> Wurger,
> So what you are saying is that tank with the short turret gun, is a combination of a few tanks, the M5 and Stuart..



Dear mate no ,it wasn't a combination of a few tanks.The vehicle was not a tank at all.It was a self propelled howitzer equipped with 75mm gun-howitzer.Therefore the barrel of the gun was short.
The M3 Stuart light tank was produced in England initially.When USA went into the war the branch of GM firm called Cadillac rebuilt M3 Stuart light tank in October 1941.The tank was powered by two Cadillac V-8 engines and had a new automatic Cadillac Hydea-Matic gear-box.Firstly the new tank was called M4.But in February 1942 the name was changed into M5 because M4 became a name of Sherman.M5A1 was M5 tank with a new longer turret and some additional modifications.In British Army tanks M5 and M5A1 were named Stuart VI. M8 howitzer was one of the last variants of the M3-M5 tank series.In 1942 US Army ordered a new self propelled howitzer with 75 mm gun.Because the gun was heavy Cadillac decided to use the M5 body with its undercarrige frame and engines.Cadillac started assembling of the new 75 mm Howitzer Motor Carriage M8 in September 1942 and stopped in January 1944 with 1778 M8s in total.I hope I helped a bit with the name.


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## Wurger (Dec 10, 2007)

Erich said:


> the Fw 190 red 22 that you have was from the 7th staffel.
> 
> E ~



Erich dear friend, it was of the 7th staffel or 6th staffel?
Do you mean this "Red22" of 6./Jg301 W.nr.490044?

Source unknown.


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## Erich (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm sorry my hands are too quick, my brain is getting fried at the moment

white - 5th staffel
red - 6th staffel ~ red 22
yellow - 7th staffel
blue - 8th staffel

all this for II./JG 301 flying Fw 190A-8 and A-9's till January of 45 when the gruppe had the Dora 9, the 6th staffel received them in December of 44. 8th staffel never flew the Dora as far as I know but the A variants.

thanks for catching this Wurger that is an interesting werke nummer, and am not so sure that is correct, will check my pics, one of which you hae shown. note the Ju 88G-6 nf's in the background


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## DBII (Dec 10, 2007)

The recon units used light tanks because they were small and fast. The organic arty had to be able to keep up with the recon elements and armor units. Since towed guns could not keep up, the tanks were redesigned to carry the arty. The M8 was a redesigned M5 light tank that carried a 75mm howiter. I can check when I get home if the M8 is listed on the TO&E for the Recon units. The name Stewart was use for both the M3 and M5. It may have been used for the M8 also since they are all the same basic hull design.

Clank Clank, I'm a tank.
DBII

Looks like I am a little late.


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## Wurger (Dec 10, 2007)

Erich said:


> I'm sorry my hands are too quick, my brain is getting fried at the moment



I know this I have sometimes the same.



Erich said:


> thanks for catching this Wurger that is an interesting werke nummer, and am not so sure that is correct, will check my pics, one of which you hae shown. note the Ju 88G-6 nf's in the background



You are welcome.
In the second pic of the Red22 the werk number is visible partially only.The last three numbers are 044 for sure but the first three ones I'm also not sure.Besides I've also noticed the Ju88G-6 night fighters sitting around.

But I would like to pay your attention to the damages on the Red22 and Fisher's Fw190 rudders.These are a bit different.Besides the Fisher's one don't have a Pitot tube.Is it possible the pic was taken later then the Red22 one?


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## Wurger (Dec 10, 2007)

DBII said:


> The name Stewart was use for both the M3 and M5. It may have been used for the M8 also since they are all the same basic hull design..



The M8 howitzer was called "Scott". The M3-M5 tanks were named "Stuart" but not "Steward".



DBII said:


> Clank Clank, I'm a tank.


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## Erich (Dec 10, 2007)

yes I noticed a difference in the rudder first off and was questioning in my mind was it the same a/c. then I looked at tail and engine cowling camo and it matches perfectly. from older threads I have pointed out that JG 301 was full of crazy painters and they just applied about everything in their stores to their a/c which made almost each one uniquely different, though the Dora 9's are somewhat consistent if you look at the rudders which change to more greys often and the engine cowlings you will find dark green-brown shades low down or above the exhausts

back to fishers pic it could of been taken earlier than the one you posted Wurger, some hot shot GI may have wanted a little piece for himself or thrown something at the tail........who knows ?


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## Wurger (Dec 10, 2007)

Oh yes !!!!You are right.The GIs could take some pieces as their reminders.
I must admit I tought like you with the camo pattern,At glance it fitted to the Red22 especially on the fin and the engine cowling.So you are right it is the same aircraft.



Erich said:


> JG 301 was full of crazy painters and they just applied about everything in their stores to their a/c which made almost each one uniquely different, though the Dora 9's are somewhat consistent if you look at the rudders which change to more greys often and the engine cowlings you will find dark green-brown shades low down or above the exhausts



Therefore I like the Luftwaffe camo patterns.These are very interesting and unique.


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## Micdrow (Dec 10, 2007)

Very cool pictures there fisher972002, I shrank down all the extra white around the pictures, very distracting to look at. Awsome information though guys.


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## DBII (Dec 10, 2007)

Thanks Wurger, I did not know that the M8 had a seperate name. Would you buy that the M5 name error was a typo? I was trying to write between phone calls at work and was distracted. I am new here and it was the first time I could say something of value...lol I guess I blew it. 

DBII


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## Wurger (Dec 10, 2007)

DBII said:


> Would you buy that the M5 name error was a typo?
> DBII




Of course I would.
I also have some problems with these maistakes.Besides some keys on my keyboard are almost invisible with its letters.I have to buy a new one.

best wishes friend.


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## Njaco (Dec 10, 2007)

My 2 cents as wurger and Erich have the plane covered. Fisher, if the limited knowledge I have about handguns is correct, hold onto that Ruger (or Luger). With the provenance you have it may be very valuable.


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## Wurger (Dec 10, 2007)

Njaco you are right I think Fisher meant the Luger pistole like this in the pic.


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## Wayne Little (Dec 10, 2007)

The W.Nr. for Red 22 is definitely 490044 part of 30 A-9's built at Aslau...I think, at work at the moment so can't check. Can post image of other side tonight showing the W.Nr. and a shot of my Red 22 that I did some time ago and was going to put up on the Baer modelling thread that Erich started....


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## Wurger (Dec 10, 2007)

Hi Wayne,
Is your pic of the another side of the Red 22 of better quality.Unfortunately my one is not enough of this?


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## Wayne Little (Dec 10, 2007)

Wurger, the main image I have is a good quality shot, nice and clear, will post tonight after work.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 10, 2007)

How funny is it that Wayne did a model of the same plane that Fischers Grandpa is standing next to???? Waaaaayyy too wierd for me.... Good work figuring this one out fellas...


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## fisher972002 (Dec 11, 2007)

Wurger,
Ok, I guess when I see a track I automatically think a tank, thanks for the work on identifying that truck/small tank

Wow, That's pretty weird you guys already had a picture of the same airplane, you're right the camo patterns are identical.

Yeah, You guys are right, It's a luger, that's the exact gun. You grab the circle grip on the top back of the gun and it joints and opens the chamber. My Grandpa took it off an officer along with the compass and mapbook/bag and his officer gave him the ok to ship home so he did.. I always say Ruger for some reason, that's the exact gun you have in the picture and can you believe the leather map bag and black leather gun case still have a wonderful supple leather smell to them after all these years... He oiled the gun well and put it in the case in a safe and there is literally no deterioation.. even the small 1/4" leather strap that holds the top of the gun holder closed is in perfect condition..

Man, you guys know your stuff, Wow, congrats


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## fisher972002 (Dec 11, 2007)

Wurger,
I can send you a copy of the picture if you want when I get it on a CD in data format, or if anybody else wants it..


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## fisher972002 (Dec 11, 2007)

Ok,
Your guys information has helped me greatly.. based on the www.5ad.org/trek/html map I thought my grandpa's Company went through the path on the map, HameLN, Peine , Meine, WINTERFELD and then stopping at the River ELBE W of Berlin..

BUT, based on this new information, if you look at the map, there is a black Line pointing South From Brunswick on APR 10th, a unit went south to MUHLHAUSEN. So I can say for sure that my Grandfather's company was on this excursion.. Wonder why whey broke away from the rest... Muhlhausen is where the picture of him on the Howitzer 75 light tank he has labeled.. So I know now the picture was taken AFTER April 10th, 1945, that would explain the foilage on the trees..

So they must have went to that airfield East of MUHLHAUSEN and snapped the picture of the FOCKE WULF, also After April 10th, 1945..
What a help, then they probably worked back East and stopped at the River Elbe W of berlin and met up wtih the rest of the division..

SUpreme help guys..Thanks


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## Wurger (Dec 11, 2007)

fisher972002 said:


> Wurger,
> I can send you a copy of the picture if you want when I get it on a CD in data format, or if anybody else wants it..



Of course I want, that's very kind of you.I appreciate it. THX very much dear friend.
I'm glad we helped a bit.


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## Erich (Dec 11, 2007)

yes we have some pretty sharp help here fisher as we come from many parts of Gods earth with all sorts of expertise, in fact I can safely say this is probably the most diverse forum I attend on with such a wide range of knowledge and more than just the love of aircraft..........

ok enough of that soggy stuff, bring on the photos man !  

E ~


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## Njaco (Dec 11, 2007)

Alittle off the topic, Fisher, I remember seing a TV docu on the Luger and the ones that could be authentic from Germany were worth mucho $$$. Adler is a collector of German artifacts and may help better than I. Don't sell that gun and pouch until you have a good handle on the worth. Or keep it with the collection of your grandpas stuff - future savings for the little ones.


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## Erich (Dec 11, 2007)

little note about the source unknown pic of red 22 at Langensalza, that is from the Jim Crow collection, both views of either side actually with a nice looking Dora 9 included as well in the distance. I'd try to post them up if things were not so buried around here ..... hey it's Christmas guys 8)


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## Wurger (Dec 11, 2007)

So does it mean there is snow around you?


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## fisher972002 (Dec 11, 2007)

Njaco,
Yeah, I don't think my family will ever sell it it has lots of sentimental value and is a nice souvenier, thanks for the info.


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## Njaco (Dec 11, 2007)

No prob. I'm the least knowledgable here but throw my bit in. Welcome to the forum!


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## Erich (Dec 11, 2007)

Wurger it is my office, there are C. presents stashed all along the bookshelves and floor very tightly packed out.......what a trash heap it is.


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## Wurger (Dec 11, 2007)

Ho,ho,ho... So you are supposed to be the Santa Clause. 
But he has his office in Finnland,hasn't he?


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## Erich (Dec 11, 2007)

actually I grew a grey beard of sorts for a Christmas musical last night, as I played St. Nick, then home and shaved that old ugly thing off my face, my wife luved it but it made me look 90 plus years of age ..............not yet thank you

I got to go to work for a spell


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## Wurger (Dec 11, 2007)

So, have fun.


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## Wayne Little (Dec 11, 2007)

Sorry, i didn't get to post the red 22 images last night, internet problems? I think there was server issues...will try again tonight after work.


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## Wayne Little (Dec 12, 2007)

Ok Internet problem solved. so here are the 2 images as promised.

Wurger, the clearer image showing the W.Nr. 490044 built at 
Focke Wulf-Aslau, W.Nr. block 490020 - 490050.

The model I built of Red 22 years ago... can't remember how long?

Fisher, wouldn't mind a larger image of your side shot, please.

The photo credit is via Tank Magazine Special Issue "Luftwaffe Warbirds Photo Album. Volume 1 Page 48." 1 of 5 photo's on which my model was based.


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## Wurger (Dec 12, 2007)

Wayne THX very much.The pic is really of good quality.The werk nummer is visible clearly now.Flaps seem to be of metal...Great my friend.
Your Red22,I must say it again, is great !!!! Excellent work.


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## Njaco (Dec 12, 2007)

Great work, Wayne! Would love to see a diorama with the Heinkel and the 110 in the background. Cool stuff.


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## Erich (Dec 12, 2007)

Wayne I cannot say for certain.......my cousins A-9 was an early one as it was downed in Nov. 44. Obviously another pilot came in to fly another white 2 in December of 44 onward. and the left hand view of Röte 22 is also from the J. Crow collection ........

E ~


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## fisher972002 (Dec 16, 2007)

All,
Got the scanned picture of the FW190 and also the mustang and B 17, i also found another picture of them on a Thunderbolt sittin on the propeller and front of it that is pretty cool. I am still trying to hunt up the ME 262, I think that one is or was in a different photo book, it's not in the one I have right now.. it kind of scares me though.. For example my Grandpa had pictures that were especially sinister separated from the photo albums, for example the pictures of prisoners/ walking skeletons at Bergen Belzen and we are not sure what he did with those pictures... My Grandma about 6 months ago say the leather map case and compass in the garbage, she just happened to find it in the garbage, I think my Grandpa in the later stages of alzheimers may have thrown some things away and we didn't know it.....

I shutter to think maybe some other photos may have let with the CC pics, but you never know they could be anywhere in a photo book. it's hard saying what was going through his head???


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## fisher972002 (Dec 16, 2007)

ANybody since you guys know your tanks, anybody know what this is called...
It's written on the back of the picture "German self propelled 88"

Chris


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## Wurger (Dec 16, 2007)

Hi Chris,
In your pic there is a Sd.Kfz.173 Jagdpanther with 88mm gun KwK43 (PAK43).
It was a heavy tank destroyer.
Nice pic.

There two links:

Jagdpanther - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jagdpanther Late Version by Chris Wauchop (Tamiya 1/35)


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## fisher972002 (Dec 16, 2007)

I said thunderbolt, earlier, I was wrong, on the back of this picture is says B 17, it kind of looks like a P 47 from the cowl doesn't it..


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## fisher972002 (Dec 26, 2007)

Good News All,
I found another picture book, and I found that Picture of the ME 262 in the forest I told you guys about.
. Also lots of pictures of blown up jeeps and german tanks, american tanks, And an american glider that crashed.. 
i'll scan the pictures tonight and post them of the ME 262 and American Glider.

Udate,
My brother took the picture book, he's scanning the pictures for me, so might be a few days. Thanks


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## fisher972002 (Jan 2, 2008)

ME 262


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## Mark Proulx (Jan 2, 2008)

Chris:

Nice photo! FYI, this is a known photo and there were many copies made of it and distributed to GI's. In fact, I have the exact same 262 photo in my photo collection!

I believe this aircraft was a JV 44 machine. Look for this image, and others of the same aircraft published in the 262 four volume set from Classic.

HTH

Mark Proulx


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## fisher972002 (Jan 2, 2008)

Yup,
This picture and the concentration camp pictures are in a separate photobook and on the inside of the cover he says these pictures were 
bought at a GI store, and he says he had to buy the concentration camp pictures because the pictures he took, 
he had them developed by a german camera shop and they said all 3 rolls of film didn't develop, 
and it was his thought that they were destroyed by the camera shop, so he bought pictures at a shop..
Thanks


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## Wurger (Jan 6, 2008)

But still looking good.Nice Chris.


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## Dora9 (Jan 18, 2008)

Hello Chris,

great photos, please look at your private emails.

Best wishes
Dora9


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## Dora9 (Jan 25, 2008)

Dear Chris,

I live in the area in Germany where the photos of your Grandfather were taken.
Please get in contact with me.

email: [email protected]

Best wishes
Dora9


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## fly boy (Jan 25, 2008)

how do i post a fourm


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## fisher972002 (Jun 19, 2008)

Thanks Dora9, He just solved my mystery of where that photo of the PAK 43 Jagdpanther self propelled 88 was taken at Katensen, 20 miles NE of Hannover.
According to the map "Trek of the 5th Armored division, they pass right by here, so I know for sure that is correct.
Thanks Dora9,
This board is great!

ALso
I scanned some more pics and put them on this site if any of you are interested, some of the new ones were from the separate album of the pictures bought from the PX GI store

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/5AD/photos/browse/8887?b=1&m=t&o=0


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## Njaco (Jun 19, 2008)

Tried it Fischer but Yahoo is too d*mn stupid! Can't access without an account and I can't get an account because it doesn't like my email. Stuck in a loop.

Those other pics were great though!


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## fisher972002 (Jun 20, 2008)

Yeah,
You have to have yahoo id to see those..
I uploaded to photobucket, 
try this link

fisher972002/85threcon_5thAD - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


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## fisher972002 (Jun 20, 2008)

ALright,
Dora9 just solved another mystery. The Jagdpanther is of II/Pzlehr Regt 130: at the town crossroad of Katensen, he has 3 other photos of the same tanka and same camo pattern, with the same little bush in front of it, so I am further more able to piece together the journey,
Thanks Dora9


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## Njaco (Jun 21, 2008)

Absolutely outstanding, fischer!! Those type-written notes at the bottom are priceless!


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## Wayne Little (Jun 21, 2008)

Agree with NJ great shots, mate!


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## fisher972002 (Dec 23, 2008)

Erich,
On our correspondence on page 2 of this post, I found out an interesting story. You said that one of your Grandfathers was in Latvia during WW2. One of my Mom's good friends has a father that is still alive, he is 93 years old. He is native Latvian came to the states after the war. He has an engineering degree from Latvia. The way I understand it the Latvians were afraid the Russians were coming and didn't want anything to do with them.. So the Germans shipped some Latvians from a large city to SOuthern Germany. He was part of these refugees. Anyways, the Nazi's found out he had and engineering background while he was at the refugee camp, they put him to work designing and building the refugee housing in Southern Germany.. he was hired because of his engineering background to help design and build buildings, I guess like temporary building for Misplaced people in camps and such.. I think the Nazi's were somewhat friendly to Latvian's...But get this, can you believe,, to this day he still receives a pension from the German Government. He worked for them for 5 years or so and he gets $200 or so dollars a month that comes in the mail to his address in Iowa where he lives now straight from the German Government. 
He met his wife at the refugee camp, and they used a US army blanket for her wedding dress

Kind of a neat story. If you are interested I can get more details from him. Also PM me your address if you want a 5x7 I have lots of copies of that pic.


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## fisher972002 (Jun 28, 2010)

some documents, draft notices, discharge papers letters from presidents you guys might find interesting..
[/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]


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## fisher972002 (Jun 28, 2010)

explaining album pictures, typed 2 pages of brief experience/locations.


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## Snautzer01 (Jun 30, 2010)

Thanks you for sharing this.


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## Njaco (Jun 30, 2010)

Chris, great stuff! Thanks for posting!


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## Snautzer01 (Jun 30, 2010)

Thanks you for sharing this.


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## Wayne Little (Jul 2, 2010)

Excellent!


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