# Formation



## billrunnels (Jan 10, 2018)

On mission mornings the UK air space was saturated with aircraft making take off and formation dangerous and challenging. Aircraft started their take off roll every 30 seconds. The Group Lead Squadron first, High Squadron second and Low Squadron third. The indicated air speed was 150 MPH and rate of climb 400 FPM. On a clear day the Lead squadron formed at 2,000 feet, high 3,000 feet and low 1,000 feet. Tail gunners in each B-17 flashed the letter "C" with an Aldis lamp until formation was completed. We circled the East-West runway while forming. Darkness and instrument take off conditions complicated the procedure. We had to find clear sky so the forming altitudes were higher but still with 1,000 foot separation. Squadron Leaders fired flares (different colors) at regular intervals. The assembly took place over the Harrington Buncher Beacon located about 15 miles West of the runway. I was in the bombay pulling fuse cotter keys while all of this was taking place so I didn't have to experience this frightening period. However, on one occasion I got back to the nose in time to see a squadron of Lancasters crossing our path about four miles ahead. Tough way to begin every mission.

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## Crimea_River (Jan 10, 2018)

Must have been a sight to see.

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## fubar57 (Jan 11, 2018)




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## Airframes (Jan 11, 2018)

A great sight, but scary too, I would imagine.


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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Jan 11, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> On mission mornings the UK air space was saturated with aircraft making take off and formation dangerous and challenging. Aircraft started their take off roll every 30 seconds. The Group Lead Squadron first, High Squadron second and Low Squadron third. The indicated air speed was 150 MPH and rate of climb 400 FPM. On a clear day the Lead squadron formed at 2,000 feet, high 3,000 feet and low 1,000 feet. Tail gunners in each B-17 flashed the letter "C" with an Aldis lamp until formation was completed. We circled the East-West runway while forming. Darkness and instrument take off conditions complicated the procedure. We had to find clear sky so the forming altitudes were higher but still with 1,000 foot separation. Squadron Leaders fired flares (different colors) at regular intervals. The assembly took place over the Harrington Buncher Beacon located about 15 miles West of the runway. I was in the bombay pulling fuse cotter keys while all of this was taking place so I didn't have to experience this frightening period. However, on one occasion I got back to the nose in time to see a squadron of Lancasters crossing our path about four miles ahead. Tough way to begin every mission.


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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Jan 11, 2018)

Bill-great data and detail indeed. Makes me realize what my Uncle Jack experienced in the ETO-and his part of a B-17 flight crew, and the raids on Polesti. Could you please elaborate on the procedure you mentioned regarding the bomb fuze cotter pins? Thanks. Hansie


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## billrunnels (Jan 11, 2018)

Hansie Bloeckmann said:


> Bill-great data and detail indeed. Makes me realize what my Uncle Jack experienced in the ETO-and his part of a B-17 flight crew, and the raids on Polesti. Could you please elaborate on the procedure you mentioned regarding the bomb fuze cotter pins? Thanks. Hansie


The cotter keys were for safety. They prevented an accident during loading of the bombs and take off. They had to be removed before dropping the bombs to allow activation of the fuze during free fall. If not removed, bombs would not explode on impact.

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Jan 11, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> The cotter keys were for safety. They prevented an accident during loading of the bombs and take off. They had to be removed before dropping the bombs to allow activation of the fuze during free fall. If not removed, bombs would not explode on impact.


About what I had guessed, were they designed for manual removal, like the safety pin on a hand grenade, or did removal of the cotter keys require a special tool, such as perhaps needle nosed pliers? Just curious, as I am guessing the bomb bay area was fairly "snug", at least until the bombs were dropped, and dropping such a tool might cause a SNAFU??? Hansie


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## billrunnels (Jan 11, 2018)

Hansie Bloeckmann said:


> About what I had guessed, were they designed for manual removal, like the safety pin on a hand grenade, or did removal of the cotter keys require a special tool, such as perhaps needle nosed pliers? Just curious, as I am guessing the bomb bay area was fairly "snug", at least until the bombs were dropped, and dropping such a tool might cause a SNAFU??? Hansie


The pins were pulled manually. However, I straightened them with pliers before we took off to make them easy to remove.

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## airminded88 (Jan 15, 2018)

It certainly took guts to be in those climbing B-17s with nothing but cloud cover all over you and mindful that a few hundred feet apart there was another bomber in the same condition.
A B-24 flight engineer summed it up very accurately by saying "From the very instant those wheels left the ground we were flirting with death all the way to the target and back."

Thank you for detailed and vivid account Bill.

Cheers


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## billrunnels (Jan 15, 2018)

airminded88 said:


> It certainly took guts to be in those climbing B-17s with nothing but cloud cover all over you and mindful that a few hundred feet apart there was another bomber in the same condition.
> A B-24 flight engineer summed it up very accurately by saying "From the very instant those wheels left the ground we were flirting with death all the way to the target and back."
> 
> Thank you for detailed and vivid account Bill.
> ...


In a B-24 that probably was true but in a B-17 out odds were better

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Jan 15, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> In a B-24 that probably was true but in a B-17 out odds were better


Bill-could you elaborate a bit on that. For example, was the climb rate of a full crewed and max. bomb and armament loaded B-24 somewhat greater than of the same comparable B-17? Are the other factors that pertain?: engine horsepower, variable pitch props (Hamilton Standard?)-- I certainly enjoy both your initial postings, and your informative replies--Thank you in advance> Hansie


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## billrunnels (Jan 15, 2018)

Hansie Bloeckmann said:


> Bill-could you elaborate a bit on that. For example, was the climb rate of a full crewed and max. bomb and armament loaded B-24 somewhat greater than of the same comparable B-17? Are the other factors that pertain?: engine horsepower, variable pitch props (Hamilton Standard?)-- I certainly enjoy both your initial postings, and your informative replies--Thank you in advance> Hansie


I really don't know a lot about the B-24 other than what we picked up during the war. Their Davis Wing was a problem. It had a tendency to fold at the frame of the fuselage when taking a solid hit. The B-24 was faster and carried a larger bomb load. On the other hand, the B-17 could operate at a higher altitude. A B-24 pilot friend of mine said the aircraft was hard to fly in a tight formation. The larger surface on the B-17 wing made it more stable. I have no idea about rate of climb etc. There has always been a friendly feud between the crews as to which was the better aircraft and it continues today. On missions where both were in the bomber stream we used to joke the enemy fighters would go after the B-24's first and there may have been some truth to that thought. Truth of the matter is which one brought you home safely was the best.

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## airminded88 (Jan 16, 2018)

Spot on Bill. Most accounts I've read from B-24 crews substantiate your argument about the physical strength required to handle the Liberator in the air as well on the ground.
It also seems likely according to some sources that had the European air war continued beyond 1945, all B-24 units would have given way to B-17s.
One thing is certain though, B-24 boys loved the Lib as much as B-17 boys loved their Flying Forts


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## billrunnels (Jan 16, 2018)

airminded88 said:


> Spot on Bill. Most accounts I've read from B-24 crews substantiate your argument about the physical strength required to handle the Liberator in the air as well on the ground.
> It also seems likely according to some sources that had the European air war continued beyond 1945, all B-24 units would have given way to B-17s.
> One thing is certain though, B-24 boys loved the Lib as much as B-17 boys loved their Flying Forts


That they did. The Collings Foundation B-24 and B-17 were in town. I was in a ground crew attending the B-17 and a similar crew was attending the B-24. I noticed a good friend setting on a chair under the bombay opening of the B-24. I go over and said, "aren't you afraid this pile of junk will fall on you". The entire B-24 crew bodily escorted me back to the B-17. That's typical of the friendly badgering the respective crews have enjoyed since WWII.

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## Zipper730 (Jan 16, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> On mission mornings the UK air space was saturated with aircraft making take off and formation dangerous and challenging.


So the RAF were in the process of wrapping up their night-raids and your formation was starting up a day raid?


> The Group Lead Squadron first, High Squadron second and Low Squadron third.


Is that something to do with the combat box, or was this multiple individual formations at different altitudes?


> Tail gunners in each B-17 flashed the letter "C" with an Aldis lamp until formation was completed.


What does "C" mean? I never served in the military...


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## billrunnels (Jan 16, 2018)

Zipper730 said:


> So the RAF were in the process of wrapping up their night-raids and your formation was starting up a day raid?
> Is that something to do with the combat box, or was this multiple individual formations at different altitudes?
> What does "C" mean? I never served in the military...


The "C" identified the 303rd Bomb Group. It appeared in a red triangle on the tail of each B-17. It was individual Squadrons forming at different altitudes. The Aldis Lamp flashing of "C" by each tail gunner after take off assured following aircraft they were forming with the correct group. This was very important when take off was in the early morning darkness or in bad weather.

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## Gnomey (Jan 18, 2018)

Great stuff Bill!

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## Tieleader (May 26, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> On mission mornings the UK air space was saturated with aircraft making take off and formation dangerous and challenging. Aircraft started their take off roll every 30 seconds. The Group Lead Squadron first, High Squadron second and Low Squadron third. The indicated air speed was 150 MPH and rate of climb 400 FPM. On a clear day the Lead squadron formed at 2,000 feet, high 3,000 feet and low 1,000 feet. Tail gunners in each B-17 flashed the letter "C" with an Aldis lamp until formation was completed. We circled the East-West runway while forming. Darkness and instrument take off conditions complicated the procedure. We had to find clear sky so the forming altitudes were higher but still with 1,000 foot separation. Squadron Leaders fired flares (different colors) at regular intervals. The assembly took place over the Harrington Buncher Beacon located about 15 miles West of the runway. I was in the bombay pulling fuse cotter keys while all of this was taking place so I didn't have to experience this frightening period. However, on one occasion I got back to the nose in time to see a squadron of Lancasters crossing our path about four miles ahead. Tough way to begin every mission.


Where you guys still using the war weary "formation ships" with the gaudy paint jobs at this point of the war or had different/better systems been developed by then?


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## billrunnels (May 27, 2018)

Tieleader said:


> Where you guys still using the war weary "formation ships" with the gaudy paint jobs at this point of the war or had different/better systems been developed by then?


Our aircraft were in top condition due to talented maintenance crews.


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## Tieleader (May 27, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> Our aircraft were in top condition due to talented maintenance crews.


No, I meant the non combat birds with all the crazy paint schemes. Red/White stripes over the whole airframe, different colored polka dots all over varied base colors on separate parts of the fuselage. Like these.


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## billrunnels (May 28, 2018)

Tieleader said:


> No, I meant the non combat birds with all the crazy paint schemes. Red/White stripes over the whole airframe, different colored polka dots all over varied base colors on separate parts of the fuselage. Like these.
> View attachment 495193
> View attachment 495195


I didn't see any crazy paint jobs like these.


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## Tieleader (May 28, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> I didn't see any crazy paint jobs like these.


Guess better methods came along later then. Still, some great photos out there of "normal" bombers being led by one of these circus wagons!


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