# Fw-190



## cheddar cheese (Dec 28, 2004)

Should the Focke-Wulf have been made Germany's main frontline fighter instead of the Messerschmitt Bf-109?


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## Erich (Dec 28, 2004)

simple answer.......... No, the a/c had a better weapons perfomrance but did not have the altitude advantage over Allied a/c types until later in the war with a totally different varinat; the Ta 152 and even then this a/c was not flown at it's optimum altitude that it was created for, by mid altitude agasint RAF and Soviet types

E thumbs up


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## wmaxt (Dec 28, 2004)

Erich said:


> simple answer.......... No, the a/c had a better weapons perfomrance but did not have the altitude advantage over Allied a/c types until later in the war with a totally different varinat; the Ta 152 and even then this a/c was not flown at it's optimum altitude that it was created for, by mid altitude agasint RAF and Soviet types
> 
> E thumbs up



You have a valid point, however Adolf Galland, who prefered the 109 to fly, advocated the production of the 262 and 190 exclusivly in early '44 when the bombing campain was at it's peak.


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## Erich (Dec 28, 2004)

that is correct as he saw the Fw 190 as the better of the two as a bomber killer. Galland flew both types of German a/c during the war as the 262 in his own unit JV 44

but the Fw 190A-8 in the bomber killer role needed protection and it could not adequately defend itself in staffeln strength let alone gruppe strength so this is why I./JG 300 under Gerhard Stamps leadership tried to come to the rescue, but alas it did not seem to deter the US efforts with the P-51D


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 28, 2004)

Nein!


The Fw-190 was a workhorse, the Bf-109 was a thoroughbred!


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## lesofprimus (Dec 29, 2004)

I say the Fw-190, because if it was prioritized OVER the Bf-109, then the advancements that Tank wanted to accomplish would have happened that much sooner.... (High Altitude Performance ect ect..)


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 29, 2004)

Thankyou...someone who agrees with me at last.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 29, 2004)

the way i see it is that only one aircraft could have saved germany by day (Erich i dunno if you'll agree with me here, i doubt it, but it you do you know more about it than me so i shall take heed of your opinion), and that was the Fw-190, the As to take on the bombers, the Ds to give them cover......................


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## Erich (Dec 29, 2004)

that was the idea in winter and spring of 1945 although later the Doras had to take on the US heavy bombers. Earlier for JG 301 in the fall of 44 it was A-9's protecting the A-8/R2's of III./Jg 301 taking on the bombers and then the A-9's would attack the bombers if they still were not infighting with P-51's.

a special occurance happened within Jg 301 in October of 44 and it was decided that 2 of the staffels of I. and II. gruppes were light staffels taking on the P-51's while the other 2 staffels in each gruppe would attck bombers along with all of III. gruppe..............interesting I say


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## Erich (Dec 29, 2004)

a skin of my cosuins white 2, Fw 190A-9, KIA on 26 November 44 providing high cover for III./JG 301 and then attacking B-24's where he ws shot down enroute by P-51's.


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## plan_D (Dec 30, 2004)

If the -190 would have been made frontline fighter, it wouldn't have stopped anything. In my opinion it wouldn't have even stalled the defeat of Germanys air power. 
The only thing that could have stopped the bombing would have been the -262 because it had obvious advantages in speed over everything Allied. That came too late, and the -190 wasn't good enough to save Germany.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 30, 2004)

I dont think this is a question on whether or not the -190 could have won the war......


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## plan_D (Dec 30, 2004)

I'm saying that to point out that making the -190 the frontline wouldn't have changed anything. Really, it was a good fighter but it was an even better bomber destroyer. 109s can hold down the escorts, while the 190s deal with the bombers. When they're done, they can still fight. 

I think the -190 was an amazing plane, one of my favourites from WW2 but it'd have been pointless putting it as the main fighter. Especially since you have to take into account the Russian theatre....UNLESS...send all the 109s to Russia and 190s do West Europe...right that's me convinced...it should have been made the front fighter in West Europe...


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## Adolf Galland (Dec 30, 2004)

i think that the the way 2 stop the allied bombers is that there should be heavy fighter unites that act as the hurricanes in the battle of britian because of their poor performance but powerful fire power and have something like the 109 to escort the heavy fighter and deal w/ the p-51s or fighter escorts


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## Erich (Dec 30, 2004)

that is exactly the way it was from July 44 on to the end of 1944 beofre much of the Reich defnce units were pulled to the Ost Front for the final battles of Berlin.

here is a schematic of the typcial Sturmgruppen attack from the rear using heavy SturmFw's and Bf 109G-6's for the high cover (Hohenjager) // Gefechtsverband

Erich ~


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 30, 2004)

so you agree with my theory erich??


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## Erich (Dec 30, 2004)

read my above posting. yes the Dora were suppose to provide high cover to the ehavier equipped A-8's and A-9's but it never seemed to work out just the right way; the P-51's would overwhlem the Luftwaffe defence


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 30, 2004)

Adolf Galland said:


> i think that the the way 2 stop the allied bombers is that there should be heavy fighter unites that act as the hurricanes in the battle of britian because of their poor performance but powerful fire power and have something like the 109 to escort the heavy fighter and deal w/ the p-51s or fighter escorts




The Hurricane didn't have poor performance, it was the hero of the BoB, the Spitfire was the posterchild!


The Spitfire was truly better, but there wasn't enough of them - the Hurricane was usually assigned to purely bomber hunting when Spits were there to cover them, or else they had a twin role of fighter and bomber interceptor!


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## lesofprimus (Dec 30, 2004)

Correct me if Im wrong, but didnt the Spitfire account for almost as many planes downed as the Hurricane????


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 30, 2004)

Try 1/3 of the Hurricane's kills...


Something like that, anyway.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 30, 2004)

I think it was more than a 1/3...


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## plan_D (Dec 31, 2004)

I don't think it was much more than half the kills. The Hurricane hunted the bombers, the Spitfires the fighters. The Hurricane was the savior in BoB. There were also 32 Sqd. of Hurricane and 11 Sqd. of Spitfire. Of course the Hurri was going to shoot down more.


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## Yeomanz (Dec 31, 2004)

im gunna say no , because it wasn't very manouverable , though it was faster than the 109 , but im still going to say no ...


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## lesofprimus (Dec 31, 2004)

> im gunna say no , because it wasn't very manouverable


Are u saying the Fw-190 wasnt manouverable???? God I hope not...


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## Yeomanz (Dec 31, 2004)

lesofprimus said:


> > im gunna say no , because it wasn't very manouverable
> 
> 
> Are u saying the Fw-190 wasnt manouverable???? God I hope not...



well less so than the 109 anyway


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## lesofprimus (Dec 31, 2004)

I dont think anyone but urself would say that an Me-109 was more manouverable than an Fw-190, except maybe the armoured Fw-190A8/R3....


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## Yeomanz (Dec 31, 2004)

well im only 14 so what would i know


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## lesofprimus (Dec 31, 2004)

Atleast u can admit it....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 31, 2004)

what?? that he's 14???


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## lesofprimus (Dec 31, 2004)

That he doent know everything....


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## Yeomanz (Dec 31, 2004)

I barely know a think ,  

i just have opinions on everything , though i know alot of the Japenease Codes 

you know G4M-betty ect .........................................................


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 31, 2004)

Ect?

Ectetera?


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## Yeomanz (Dec 31, 2004)

oh dear can i not abreviate now


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 1, 2005)

it's the codes i normally have problems with, like the TBM avenger and stuff, and i can never remember if the F4F was the wildcat or hellcat, samd with the F6F...................


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## Yeomanz (Jan 1, 2005)

What about a F7F , that was a tigercat or something like that , or maybe it was a bearcat , never been good at allied planes


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## evangilder (Jan 1, 2005)

Here you go, the Grumman Cats:
F4F- Wildcat
F6F- Hellcat
F7F- Tigercat
F8F- Bearcat

We have a Hellcat and a Bearcat at our museum and we get normal visits from a Wildcat. I used to confuse them as well, now I have been around them enough to remember.


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## Yeomanz (Jan 1, 2005)

so my first guess was right , is the bearcat he jet one ?


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## evangilder (Jan 1, 2005)

No, the Bearcat was the prop powered fast fighter. The Bearcat would actually go from a full brake stop to 10,000 feet in 96 seconds! I have seen it do that and it is really amazing! The top speed on it is quite fast too (Don't remember the exact off the top of my head). The jet one you are probably thinking of is the F9F Panther. There was also a swpet wing version of it called the Cougar.


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## plan_D (Jan 2, 2005)

Couldn't the 109 out-climb and out-dive the -190. I can't remember, I know the -190 had the best roll rate in the war and it was faster, could turn inside and more powerful than the -109.


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## Anonymous (Jan 2, 2005)

A few comments...

The Bf109's generally turned better than the FW190's at low speeds, the FW's turning better at medium and high speeds.

The FW's and 109's generally climbed about the same for a given time period, with the exception of the Bf109K which climbed like a rocket under NO2 (SEP) boost. However, SEP power was not something that could be used in combat very effectively except to escape in a climb. To engage SEP the engine had to be under a load (climbing pretty hard) and the RPM's and prop pitch had to be set just so.

The FW190A series was limited to altitudes below about 24000 feet, above that the engine computer had issues and it lacked performance. So against US bomber escorts, the Bf109 series was really the only choice until the Dora9 (which apparently fixed the problem or provided a bypass) arrived in very late 1944.

=S=

Lunatic


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## plan_D (Jan 3, 2005)

Personally, I'd rather be in -190D-9. Unless we can go into 'What-ifs' and I'm assuming we can't but I'll say this anyway. Perfect prop-driven attacked on bomber formations with Fw-190A-8/R8s attacking the bombers and Ta-152s holding high escort...sheer poetry, maybe.


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## Anonymous (Jan 3, 2005)

plan_D said:


> Personally, I'd rather be in -190D-9. Unless we can go into 'What-ifs' and I'm assuming we can't but I'll say this anyway. Perfect prop-driven attacked on bomber formations with Fw-190A-8/R8s attacking the bombers and Ta-152s holding high escort...sheer poetry, maybe.



With P-51H's and P-47M's flying escort...

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Jan 3, 2005)

The Tank would of easily made the bounce if in sufficient numbers. The STurmFW's would of been done away with and the Newer lines of 262's would of been available.

all in all a large what if. Just like the Ta 152 uber thread.........B-29's what crock. Suggest you chaps pick up the books and I mean all of them that I listed oln the JG 301 unit and the Ta 152.


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## Anonymous (Jan 4, 2005)

Erich said:


> The Tank would of easily made the bounce if in sufficient numbers. The STurmFW's would of been done away with and the Newer lines of 262's would of been available.
> 
> all in all a large what if. Just like the Ta 152 uber thread.........B-29's what crock. Suggest you chaps pick up the books and I mean all of them that I listed oln the JG 301 unit and the Ta 152.



There were never going to be many 262's, the engines were simply beyond Germany's ability to mass produce.

The P-51H and P-47M would have been able to contend with the TA-152. Also there were other versions of the P-47 in the pipe for high altitude performance which were not pursued because Germany was all but beaten and there was no need. And there were Spitfires also in the pipe for this role. If we are going to revise history to consider a Germany that might have massed produced the Ta, we have to assume the Allies would have made different choices based upon that fact too right?

What's the "crock" about the B-29? It was originally intended for Europe, but by the time it was ready to start operations in 1944, Germany was all but beaten and there was no need for it there. The B-29 would have done much much better against Germany than it did against Japan, as the jet-stream problem over the Sea of Japan was not present over the ETO.

=S=

Lunatic


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## plan_D (Jan 4, 2005)

P-51H and P-47M in escort, the Ta-152 could have dealt with them. Since when could Germany not produce Me-262s? Is it me, or did they actually produce -262s that claimed a lot of bombers...


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## Anonymous (Jan 4, 2005)

plan_D said:


> P-51H and P-47M in escort, the Ta-152 could have dealt with them.



You say that so confidently. What makes you think the Ta-152 would have "dealt with" the P-51H or P-47M? By VE day, there were already more than twice as many P-51H's flying as Ta152 airframes laid down (ie: given a werknumber), and 7 times as many as Germany had been able to actually field.

The P-51H had a higher top speed (at a lower altitude, they were about equal at around 30,000-33,000 feet), could sustain higher speeds longer, had a better fighter vs. fighter armament, better visablity, a much better gunsight, better rate of roll, superior dive and zoom performance, and the pilot had a G-suit.

Typical combat would have been engaged at around 35,000-40,000 feet from which it would have descended, with the P-51H gaining hugely from its radiator thrust in the dive, giving it a huge relative power advantage at the bottom of the dives.

P-47M's likewise performed very well at 35,000 feet, and the tech from the P-47J would probably have been fully applied to a later model P-47 had the B-29 been deployed to Europe as a very high altitude bomber.

Only if the Ta had been produced in huge numbers would it have been able to "deal with" the P-47M and P-51H, and since it was much harder to manufacture this was not going to happen, even if Germany had not been crippled by Allied bombing.



plan_D said:


> Since when could Germany not produce Me-262s? Is it me, or did they actually produce -262s that claimed a lot of bombers...



Ummm... lets see.... Germany laid down some 2500 Me262's, finished at least 1500 of those, but could only produce enough engines for 300 of those to actually fly. Of those 300, excluding those which were damaged or destroyed by the allies, the average engine life was about 5-7 hours, including about 2 hours of initial testing. So you tell me, could Germany produce the Me262? Seems to me the more appropriate assessment is that it tried to do so and failed.

Here's the complete list of Me262 kills, confirmed by post war cross reference: 

29: Kurt Welter 
24: Georg-Peter Eder 
16: Heinz Bär, Rudi Rademacher, Franz Schall, 
12: Erich Rudorffer, Hermann Buchner, 
11: Karl Schnörrer, 
8: Theodor Weißenberger, Walter Schuck, Heinrich Ehrler, Feldwebel Büttner (Erprobungskommando Nowotny), Feldwebel Lennartz (Erprobungskommando Nowotny), Günther Wegmann 
7: Adolf Galland 
6: Johannes Steinhoff, Fritz Müller, 
5: Wolfgang Späte, Hans Grünberg, Klaus Neumann, Helmut Baudach, Gefreiter Heim, Leutnant Schreiber (Erprobungskommando Nowotny), 
4: Wilhelm Steinmann, 
3: Rudolf Sinner, --- Munz, 
2: Walter Nowotny, Hans Waldmann, Walter Krupinski, Oberleutnant Bley (Erprobungskommando Nowotny), Oberfeldwebel Göbel (Erprobungskommando Nowotny), Walther Dahl, Heinz Gutmann 
1: Wilhelm Herget, Gottfried Fährmann, Leo Schuhmacher, Erich Hohagen 

In almost a year of combat, those 300 Me262's managed a total of 253 kills (including all plane types) -- not very impressive. 

=S=

Lunatic


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## plan_D (Jan 4, 2005)

I've seen 426 for JG-7 alone. Even if it was 253, it's still impressive. As most of the -262s were not shot down in the air. 

And, as we're going on to what-ifs with the Ta-152 and P-51H...there'd be more Ta-152s, than there was in real life...see, it's a what-if like..if the war carried on.


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## Anonymous (Jan 4, 2005)

plan_D said:


> I've seen 426 for JG-7 alone. Even if it was 253, it's still impressive. As most of the -262s were not shot down in the air.
> 
> And, as we're going on to what-ifs with the Ta-152 and P-51H...there'd be more Ta-152s, than there was in real life...see, it's a what-if like..if the war carried on.



The 426 figure is "claimed", the 253 figure is verified. Germany stopped verifying claims in late 1944. If you can find a documentable kill not on that list I'm open to change my mind, but so far that's the number I've been able to find verified kill claims to support.

Well, there would be more Ta-152's than there really were of course, but the point is the Ta-152 was a difficult plane to mass produce, where the P-51H was an easy plane to mass produce. This combine with the larger industrial might of the USA means there would have been far more P-51H's, even if Germany were totally uneffected by Allied bombing or resource shortages at that point in the war.

=S=

Lunatic


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## plan_D (Jan 4, 2005)

True, there would have been more. Still, you do have the shipping problems. I'm thinking normal bombing formations would be escorted by P-51Hs - mostly. Attacked by Me-262A-1as...or Fw-190A-8/R8 with Ta-152s hold high escort. 

Just the same dogfights, with more advanced aircraft...


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## Erich (Jan 4, 2005)

more dreaming and more BS ost war stats. ok as I have said in the past and I will repeat one last itme before I bid you all adue

Kurt Welter did not score 29 victories in the jet.

we have the full kills confirmed listing for our book for 10./NJG 11.

The Me 262 was going through redesgning in May of 45 so if and a big what if the table had not turned agasint the Luftwaffe the 262's would of come out in much larger numbers and aided by TA 152's as high cover.

We will never know just like the hypothetical what if of the P-80 agasint eh 262. It appears yes the P-80 was superior but if the techs would of been able to promote the swept wing 262's and Fw experiments into reality then things could of easily turned pages...........well enough of this

good bye gents


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## plan_D (Jan 4, 2005)

Like the Ta-183


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 4, 2005)

Do you mean the prototype for the Mig-15 and F-86?


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## Anonymous (Jan 4, 2005)

Well, once we get past the planes that were actually flying at the end of the war, it really becomes impossible to know what might have happend.



Erich said:


> The Me 262 was going through redesgning in May of 45 so if and a big what if the table had not turned agasint the Luftwaffe the 262's would of come out in much larger numbers and aided by TA 152's as high cover.



Erich - how was Germany going to overcome its inability to produce turbojet engines? Germany had no solution to this problem in sight.

=S=

Lunatic


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## plan_D (Jan 5, 2005)

No, I don't mean the prototype for the MiG-15 and F-86. The F-86 wasn't based off the Ta-183, just improved to be swept wing off it. Now, the MiG-15 was just a Ta-183 with it's tail plane moved down midway the fin and given a Rolls Royce Nene engine. B-29s kind of fell like flies to that but that was Korea, let's not get into that.

Although had the war carried on Ta-183 would probably rule the skies but that would take another 2 years by my estimate.


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## Erich (Jan 5, 2005)

=S=

I totally agree a terribly large what-if............

the jet engines were being reasessed and revamped in the caves of Oberammergau. In fact some of the caves and secrets are still left there.
I approached the area in July of 1980 was immediately turned back by two US Military personell armed to the teeth. A Military barracks has taken over the hillside and lowland vicinity. We will share some secrets on the Me 262 in our book, but yes the problems were getting resolved but of course not adequately by war's end due to lack of time.


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## Anonymous (Jan 5, 2005)

plan_D said:


> Although had the war carried on Ta-183 would probably rule the skies but that would take another 2 years by my estimate.



And it would have faced the F-84. The Allied jet programs would have continued on at full speed, rather than facing the stiff cutbacks following the end of WWII. Most likely, US (and British) jet development would have outpaced German development and by 1948 planes similar to the F-86 would have been flying.

And German industry still would have lacked the machine tools to mass produce jet engines.

=S=

Lunatic


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## plan_D (Jan 6, 2005)

You do realise the F-86 came about as it did mostly because of the Ta-183, don't you? And the MiG-15 came about because of the Ta-183, as well. It was Korean war technology on a World War 2 German design table.


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## Anonymous (Jan 6, 2005)

plan_D said:


> You do realise the F-86 came about as it did mostly because of the Ta-183, don't you? And the MiG-15 came about because of the Ta-183, as well. It was Korean war technology on a World War 2 German design table.



Negative.

If you study it a bit, you will see that the F-86 had little to do with German designs. The only thing taken from German technology was the swept wing technology, and in this, only the use of leading edge slats to deal with low speed stability problems associated with swept wing designs. All this was garnered from the Me262, not the Ta183. Beyond that, the F-86 was pure North American Aviation engineering, even the airfoil of the wing was drawn from the P-51 wing, not the Me262's wing.

=S=

Lunatic


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## plan_D (Jan 6, 2005)

The swept wing came from the Me-262? No, the swept wing came from the tests and records from the German RLM. They didn't just get the Me-262 and go "Oh, it's got swept wings. We'll use that idea" The Ta-183 also came from those tests, so the F-86s swept wings came from the SAME tests as the Ta-183s. 

Now the MiG-15...that is just a Ta-183 with a Nene engine. So, again, Germany had Korean war design technology in World War 2.


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## Anonymous (Jan 6, 2005)

plan_D said:


> The swept wing came from the Me-262? No, the swept wing came from the tests and records from the German RLM. They didn't just get the Me-262 and go "Oh, it's got swept wings. We'll use that idea" The Ta-183 also came from those tests, so the F-86s swept wings came from the SAME tests as the Ta-183s.



Totally indpendent of German research, Robert T Jones of the NACA presented his work on swept wings as a way to overcome compressibility at transonic and supersonic speeds in February 1945, and these were confirmed in wind tunnel tests in March of that year. In these tests it was found that a strait wing had nearly 14 times the compressibility drag coefficient of a wing swept back at a 45 degrees. This was formally presented in a report in June 1945.

At this point, the German research also became available, but the point I'm making is the USA was hardly unaware of the potential for swept wings for high speed aircraft. The big issue to overcome was the instability problems of swept wings at low speeds, and one solution to this was the leading edge slats from the Me262. The NAA team actually acquired Me262 wings and the first 7 test aircraft utilized German slat hardware.

You try to make it seem like the USA had no clue and simply took and used the German research. This was hardly the case. In fact, in terms of airfoil, the F-86 wing bears a lot of resemblance to the P-51 wing. The idea to sweep the wings back 35 degrees came first and foremost from R.T. Jones's research and extensive wind tunnel testing. The idea to use wing slats to overcome low speed instability issues came from the Me262. As far as I can find, nothing from the Ta183 specifically was involved at all, and since the facilities working on the Ta were in the east, there is a very good chance that little if any of that research was even available to NAA engineers.

I agree, the Mig-15 appears to be a Ta183 knock off, but this is simply not true of the F-86.

=S=

Lunatic


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## plan_D (Jan 7, 2005)

See, that's where you're wrong because I already knew the F-86 wing was based on the P-51s. The US still required German research to develop the F-86 into what it became. 

And the MiG-15 was a rip off, it was not only designed from the Ta-183 design but by the German designer himself.


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## Anonymous (Jan 7, 2005)

plan_D said:


> See, that's where you're wrong because I already knew the F-86 wing was based on the P-51s. The US still _*required*_ German research to develop the F-86 into what it became.



No, German reasearch certianly helped, but it was not "required". The advantages of the swept wing were already understood and I am sure that even without the slat technology derived from the Me262 the NACA and NAA would have overcome the low speed instability issues.

This is not to say that it was not useful to have the German research, but your assertion that it was "essential" simply is not true.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Jan 7, 2005)

to get everyone back the original topic. A pic after 1-1-45, Gefreiter Wagner's SturmFw of 5.Sturm/JG 4 captured intact after Bodenplatte


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## Erich (Jan 7, 2005)

geez that turned out way too big..........someone please re-downsize for me. ok next try, same aircraft different view and hopefully not as bloody big in your face !


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 7, 2005)

don't worry those pics take no time to appear...............


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## Erich (Jan 7, 2005)

the pixalation is terrible though so the imagery needs to be reduced.....


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## plan_D (Jan 7, 2005)

Still great pictures, Erich. Thanks.


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## Erich (Jan 7, 2005)

interesting details is that this a/c had two mg 131's in the cowling and four 2cm's installed and not the usual outbaord 3cm and cowling fairings and pulled out 13mm's. you can see the fuselage armor fairly clearly even though the pics are a bit disrupted


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 7, 2005)

Yeah, great pics Erich!


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## Anonymous (Jan 7, 2005)

Erich said:


> interesting details is that this a/c had two mg 131's in the cowling and four 2cm's installed and not the usual outbaord 3cm and cowling fairings and pulled out 13mm's. you can see the fuselage armor fairly clearly even though the pics are a bit disrupted



Hmmm... that is the standard A-8/R6 configuration, by far the most common for the FW190A-8 (and A-9). This was the configuration found on 90% of the late model 190A's.

The R2 configuration, with 2 x MK108's in the outer wing panels, was much less common. Sometimes the MG131's were removed on these (those from factory), sometimes not (those modified in the field using the kit).

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Jan 7, 2005)

the standard SturmFw was the R2 or the R8. There was no Sturm R6 or R7. this is most likely a Full on sturm machine with the 3cm's pulled and replaced in the field by 2cm's. this was no uncommon in JG 4 or 300 and in the Ost front battels JG 3 Sturms went through similiar modifications as they were not engaging heavies anymore


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## Anonymous (Jan 7, 2005)

Erich said:


> the standard SturmFw was the R2 or the R8. There was no Sturm R6 or R7. this is most likely a Full on sturm machine with the 3cm's pulled and replaced in the field by 2cm's. this was no uncommon in JG 4 or 300 and in the Ost front battels JG 3 Sturms went through similiar modifications as they were not engaging heavies anymore



Apparantly I am mistaken, the R6 was the standard A-8 with 21 cm rocket launchers installed.

But my point is the standard FW190A-8 configuration was:

2 x 13mm MG131 in the cowling (synchronized, 475 rpg)
2 x 20mm MG151/20 in the wing roots (synchronized, 250 rpg)
2 x 20mm MG151/20 in the outer wing panels (non-synchronized, 140 rpg)

Most with the R2 Rüstsätze were modified in the field (a few were modified before delivery), so it's hard to know just how many were actually fielded in this configuration. But it is clear the normal configuration was 4 x 20mm cannon.

The best dogfighter version was the FW190A-6 with the outboard cannon removed.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Jan 7, 2005)

The A-6 had the outboard MG 151/20 as standard and the outboards were taken off like in late war with wishes by the pilot. You can usually tell an SturmFw by the werk nummer starting with 680 going through 681. The first three numerals 682 then indicated the A-9 SturmFw variant such as this A-9 sturm machine from II./JG 301.

the unit is a derilict 5th staffel machine with the armor plating the fuselage pulled off but the windscreen is still armored. note the non-installation of the 13mm mg 131's.

The R2 and R8 versions had the armor on the a/c equipped at the factory. Only upon arrival was it up to the pilot to determine whether he wanted sandard heavy 2cm and 3cm weapons or go through a change. A-9's especially in I. and II. gruppe/JG 301 had the outboard 2cm's pulled since two of the staffeln from each gruppe were desiganted as light staffels to counter the P-51 threat. The weight consideration was of major importance to act as high protection for the ehavier gruppes A-8's and A-9's with the heavier cannon configs.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 7, 2005)

Here are the above two of three, resized for better quality...


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## lesofprimus (Jan 7, 2005)

Thanks for that resize....

Erich, if I wanted to really learn about the inner workings of those SturmFw 190A-8/R2's, from squadron level, to pilot information and talleys, to the planes themselves, what book(s) do u recommend for me to purchase......

I know that u have recommended 1 or 2 before, but i was unable to relocate that thread.....


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## Erich (Jan 7, 2005)

how's your German ?

IV./JG 3 by Dr. Jochen Prien, Struve Druck Verlag, Eutin, Germany. This book maybe on the waiting list to be published in English through Schiffer Publications out of Pennsylvania.

Sturmjager volume 1 and 2 by Eric Mombeek. In German only and I think in French. Produced through Eagle Editions and not sure if it is still in publication.

To be released, JG 300, volume 1 March 2005 and second volume in lates pring 2005. In English by Jean Yves Lorant and Richard Goyat. Eagle Editions again.

our web-site which is still not back up to full proiduction rate yet till the last books are published.

JG 301/JG 302, Wilde Sau in German by Willi Reschke was in German and now released through Schiffer ? in Englsih fairly recently. although not fully covering SturmFw actions it does take intoa cct. the unit flying full on heavy Fw actions with lighter Fw's as high cover from November 44 till January/February of 45.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 7, 2005)

My German is non existant.. I need english or decntly translated material....

Thank you for the listing...


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## Erich (Jan 7, 2005)

Kopf hoch !

you're welcome and gute Jagd


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## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

Wise ass......


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## Anonymous (Jan 8, 2005)

Erich,

Do you have any solid data on the number of A8-R2 variants?

For a while I was in contact with another person writing a book on them, and he indicated that he thought they made up at best perhaps 10-15% of the total number of A8's. Are your numbers different?

As I understand it, MK108's were in high demeand and MK108 ammo was in relatively short supply.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Jan 8, 2005)

The SturmFw's, both R2's and R8's were made at Fieseler/Kassel werke's

the numbers were 680101 to 683340 although it appears that some of the 682designations were for the A-9/R2

the numbers i have do not give exacts for the R2 or R8 but are all put together,

Developed and sent from the factory in February of 1944 till January of 45 with a total of 1350 units divided up between the Sturmstaffel 1, JG 1 and JG 11, then the three Sturmgruppen of JG 3, 4 and 300. Also units in JG 301.

Now for the A-8 in general I have once heard some 6,000 units plus completed. anyone have the stats on that as I do not have all the werk nummerations by a long shot............

ok lets get totally confused now ....  

The first so-called SturmFw's were in Sturmstaffel 1 and they were armored knights having four 2cm weapons and possibly cowling mg's but not always. These were A-6's with the designation R2 but the R2 was not always listed officially. Later in the winter of 44 some A-7's came into the staffel due to huge casualties. The introduction of the Mk 3cm 108 cannon in the A-7 led to the term A-7/MK but leter that was removed and the R2 designation was retained. The unit's machines were not always armored in the Sturmstaffel 1 as well as JG 1 and JG 11. The two latter units also had the predominance of A-8's as standard.
In June of 44 the Sturm Fw was given A-8/R2 some with mg's and some without; some without had the cowling fairings aerodynamically placed to restrict the bad flying characteristics of the ehavy bird. These were used in all three heavy units until November/December 1944 when the A-8R8 becmae the Standard Sturm Fw machine. This had all the heavy armor as well as mg's removed and teh aerodynamic farings on the engine cowling. there were no more field modifications, as these came straight from the factory, two 2cm inboard and two 3cm outboard. The true standard for the Sturmbocke.
During the fall of 1944 JG 301 also had SturmFw like machines, usually not armored although the aobve pic of white 21 says otherwise. The A-8/R2 had mg's or sometimes not but always the 2cm and 3cm weapons. The heavy units were also broken up amongst the Staffels of III. gruppe but again we find them in dribs and drabs in the other two gruppe's; the first and second. later IV. gruppe would arrive for a short spell but it operated the Bf 109G-10.
As the A-8 was being slwly fazed out the A-9 came into full on production with some having the heavy outboard 3m's. This was the A-9/R2 serving in JG 3, JG 300 and JG 301. 12 bladed fan and many the wooden prop for more power. Also the drop tank had changed in style and the Bubble top like canopy of the dora model was placed on the A-9 in many cases. From a distance though the A-8 and A-9 looked alike.

I have also heard the cheaply made Mk 108 3cm was in short supply along with the ammo. It was used also for the Bf 110G-4 Night fighter as well as SturmFw's and the Me 262 so yes many hands wanted the unit for their a/c . with the case of further acceptance of the Me 262 I beleive that they had priority of the weapon although new marks of Bf110G-4's were coming out with the Neptun FuG 217 radar and the forward armament was two 3cm weapons and two 2cm weapons in the lower nose.
SturmFw's were losing most of their armor and the outboard 3cm's being replaced by 2cm weapons although some armored knights stayed with JG 3. JG 3 and JG 4 staying on the Ost front from mid January till war's end while JG 300 stayed in the interior Reich flying the heavy Sturm fighter.....

I need Kaffe bitte ....... hope this all makes sense  

Erich


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## Anonymous (Jan 8, 2005)

Yes it makes sense, but it still doesn't answer the question; what proprotion of the A8's were A-8/R2's?

I used to be in contact with a guy writing a book on the FW. I'll need to try to get back in touch with him (it's been 2 years). He gave me the complete deployment info for JG1 up through the end of 1944, which are as follows: (I have specific delivery, loss, and strength info by month as well)

Type_____________Total
Fw 190A-2 ................86
Fw 190A-3 ................49
Fw 190A-4 ................151
Fw 190A-4/R1 ...........3
Fw 190A-5 ................66
Fw 190A-6 ................128
Fw 190A-7 ................185
Fw 190A-8 ................440
Fw 190A-9 ................14
Grand Total...............1122

This implies that either JG1 got the lion's share of the FW190A-8's or that there were in fact more A-8's produced than the 1334 generally reported. He claimed that while it was the desire of the units to have more 30mm armed planes, that in fact the numbers were rather small and most were armed with 4 x MG151/20's + 2 x MG131's (sometimes ommited).

Again, the A-6 variant with outboard guns removed was by far the best dogfighting version of the FW190A. Later versions became too heavy for effective dogfighting.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Jan 8, 2005)

Lune there were some 6700 Fw 190A-8's from the factories // amounts of 1350 were A-8/R2's and R8's.

My listing which I found is of the werke nummern and the factories. There are not specific dates except for the first and last machines delivered by month by those very nummern of 680 to the 683***.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

> Again, the A-6 variant with outboard guns removed was by far the best dogfighting version of the FW190A. Later versions became too heavy for effective dogfighting.


That is definatly true.... But...If u removed the armor protection as well as the outboard cannon on the A-8, it also was quite the dogfighter...


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## Erich (Jan 8, 2005)

Personally the A-9 without the outboard guns is probably equal to the A-6 and also with a more powerful engine. Again I mentioned it was a personal preference by some I. and II./JG 301 pilots and it spread to other units as well such as JG 4. When Reich defence units flew on the Ost front they of course were told to defend Berlin and the area at all costs. This meant besides looking for Soviet a/c to engage, the terrible wrok of ground attack with single bombs, so the outboard cannons were then removed. It became standard even when encountering the Yak and Mig and Lav. fighters to only have cowling mg's and inboard 2cm's.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

Yes I have read that before.. less weight = better flight performance.....

ANyone know how much those 2cm and 30mm weaps weighed, with ammo????


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## Anonymous (Jan 8, 2005)

Erich said:


> Lune there were some 6700 Fw 190A-8's from the factories // amounts of 1350 were A-8/R2's and R8's.
> 
> My listing which I found is of the werke nummern and the factories. There are not specific dates except for the first and last machines delivered by month by those very nummern of 680 to the 683***.



You cannot go just by the werknumber sequencings. It has been shown repeatedly that there were often significant gaps within a block.

=S=

Lunatic


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## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

> You cannot go just by the werknumber sequencings. It has been shown repeatedly that there were often significant gaps within a block.


I have heard this also.....


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## Erich (Jan 8, 2005)

I also realize that, one mention of 682*** as some of the A-9/R2's in the above postings. But I have a listing of the werke nummern complete with the amounts in numbers. 1350 Sturmlike machines. this would include A-8 and A-9 sorry I cannot break that up any smaller, but it is confirmed from two German sources, one from German author Peter Rodeike in his fantastic Fw 190/Ta 152 book


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## Anonymous (Jan 8, 2005)

Erich said:


> I also realize that, one mention of 682*** as some of the A-9/R2's in the above postings. But I have a listing of the werke nummern complete with the amounts in numbers. 1350 Sturmlike machines. this would include A-8 and A-9 sorry I cannot break that up any smaller, but it is confirmed from two German sources, one from German author Peter Rodeike in his fantastic Fw 190/Ta 152 book



Typically each Block is only a few hundred planes. Typically, some block sections are skipped entirely. 1334 FW190A-8's of all types is the generally accepted number. While I agree there were probably more than this, I'd really like to see some kind of solid info about there having been 6700, which is a huge huge discrepancy.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Jan 8, 2005)

I'll see if the rest of the listing covers the breakdown. Wonder though of the 6700 plus is all the Fw 190A variants ? the list in my possession is a abad copy from Germany. I can attest in truth the nu bers for the sturm machines which I will list on the morrow for u

E ~


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## Anonymous (Jan 9, 2005)

Erich said:


> I'll see if the rest of the listing covers the breakdown. Wonder though of the 6700 plus is all the Fw 190A variants ? the list in my possession is a abad copy from Germany. I can attest in truth the nu bers for the sturm machines which I will list on the morrow for u
> 
> E ~



No, as I recall there are some 17000 A/F/G series (ie: aircooled engine) airframes laid down. That number is probably a little overstated, because in some instances new werknumbers were given to a plane composed of the parts of several existing planes, or when a plane's format/equipment was substantially changed. Also the numbering system was not consistant through the war. It's all rather confusing as I'm sure you know.

There is a huge discrepancy. Established numbers seem to be well short of the 17000 figure, but I suspect the missing planes are more evenly distributed between the A-4 through A-9 series, as well as amoung the various F and G variants than the 6700 A-8's figure would imply, but perhaps... ???

Adding up the numbers of each variant at the JBaugher 198A page, I come up with about 5500, but this includes no figures for A-3, A-5, A-0, F-8, or F-9 versions. Even he claims that there were about 17000 radial engine versions:



> Example of this practice is seen in a Fw 190F-8/R-1 plane stored in the National Air and Space Museum (NASM) in Washington, USA. When, after storage in the Silver Hill facility, the process of restoration started, the old identification plate on the fuselage with serial number (Werk Nummer) W.Nr. 640069 was found. This is evidence that the airframe was taken from an A-7 plane. After rebuilding during the war, this particular plane was modified to Fw 190F-8 standard, got a new serial number (W.Nr. 931884) and was again sent to a service unit. The number of Fw 190 fighters produced with radial engines is probably 17000 planes minimum. Some authors quote higher numbers, but because each source is different, these numbers are not credible. Of course, the development of the Fw 190 plane did not end with the A, F and G versions, but continued with water-cooled in-line engines.
> http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/fw190.html



I'd also point out that just because an airframe was completed to the point of recieving a Werknumber does not mean it was ever delivered for service. I suspect the actual number in service was well under 17000, but well over 5500.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Jan 9, 2005)

I'll agree with the inconsistantcy of all German a/c werk nummern. I have studie the Ju 88G-6 for many a year and there just as much fonfusion there.

be back soon with the ......... SturmFw's stuff


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## Erich (Jan 10, 2005)

well just had an accident..........

ok my arithmetic is off possibly

680101-680200 100 a/c
680410-680600 120 a/c this does not add up ?
680710-680860 150 a/c
680930-680970 20 a/c this does not add up ?

681020-681050 30 a/c
681250-681540 290 a/c
681801-681900 60 a/c ?
681960-681999 40 a/c

682001-682070 70 a/c
682170-682320 150 a/c
682620-682840 170 a/c ?
682901-682999 100 a/c

683310-68340 30 a/c

total for this list is 1330 SturmFw's from Fieseler, Kassel works

unless there are no gaps then the German tally is incorrect. Out of sequence is a definate.

on a second page after other A-8 variants and werk nummern I see on the bottom of the page:

Daraus ergibt sich, daß annähernd 6,655 Fw 190A-8 zur Auslieferung gelangten.

my copy is bad and hopeful this is the correct sentancing.....

E be back after the doctoral visit..........dang it


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## lesofprimus (Jan 10, 2005)

Hope everything is alright with ur "Accident" Erich......


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## Anonymous (Jan 11, 2005)

Erich, I hope you are okay. By "accident" do you mean in a car?

Here in the USA the term "I had an accident" most commonly refers to:

a) a car crash

b) unintential loss of bladder control

In this case, I hope it is the latter, but suspect the former, and really am unsure because of language usuage issues...

In any case I hope you are all right m8!

=====

As for the FW's, I really have no idea. All I do know is that Werknumbers alone are insufficient as:

1) they frequently do not add up as you have shown above

2) werknumbers were often assigned before an airframe was completed and/or were changed on planes or series of planes (so that one wn might be applied to two a/c), thus this does not indicated delivery.

An example of multiple werknumbers seems to relate to a rather large block of A-8's which were redesignated A-7's for some reason.

What would be interesting would be to do a search of the American arcives in Washington. However, this costs money and unless you know, at the very least, the name of the document you want or, the date of the document or, the deptartment or individual author of the document, it is very expensive to have a search done, and results are often unsatisfactory. If you have any of the above info w.r.t. FW related documents that might have fallen into Allied hands, please let me know and perhaps we can arainge a FIA search.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Jan 11, 2005)

your in luck as I have a listing of werk nummern for the A-7 variant which I will list shortly after work.

thanks for your wishes gents. Got hit in the face while working on the property so my vision is slightly impaired for a brief spell......will be back.

E ~


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## Erich (Jan 11, 2005)

here is a tough one. Denmark 1945 after war. An A-8 or an A-9 ?


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## Erich (Jan 11, 2005)

A-7 variants. primarily the A-7/R6 and the heavy A-7/Mk or A-7/R2 done up at Fieseler, Kassel

701 units

werk nummern on this variant

340001-340085 85 a/c
340210-340360 110 a/c 

a/c done up at FW Cottbus
____________________________

430160-430200 40 a/c
430310-430370 30 a/c ?
430460-430510 60 a/c 
430640-430710 70 a/c
430990-430999 10 a/c

431001-431020 20 a/c
431110-431190 80 a/c

done up at Ago, Oschersleben
____________________________

R2's and R6's from Fieseler, Kassel

642001-642016 16 a/c
642520-642560 40 a/c
642960-642999 40 a/c

643401-643420 20 a/c
643701-643730 30 a/c
643901-643950 50 a/c

E ~ 8)


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## Erich (Jan 16, 2005)

let's see now if this works. A-9 production werke nummern from P. Rodieke's fine book on the Fw 190 variants...

my hands are starting to go


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## Erich (Jan 16, 2005)

by the way there are sub varinats included in this listing such as the R11 which housed special all weather equipment. My cousins A-9 may have been one of these. His Weiße 2 was # 206 085 built at Cottbus


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## Anonymous (Jan 16, 2005)

Might as well be in Greek


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## Erich (Jan 16, 2005)

why ? am I not understanding something ? Verstehen nicht ?


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## Anonymous (Jan 16, 2005)

Erich said:


> why ? am I not understanding something ? Verstehen nicht ?



No spreken de duetsch


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## plan_D (Jan 16, 2005)

Nicht sprechen die deustch...


...even I probably got that wrong.


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## Erich (Jan 16, 2005)

Verstehen sie ? dang, ah I suppose everyone want's a translation richtig ?


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 16, 2005)

Where are the subtitles?


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## Medvedya (Jan 16, 2005)

Die Unterschrift ist treu. Aber mein Deutscher ist nicht gut genug fur den Text.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 16, 2005)

That's not what I meant, exactly.


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## Medvedya (Jan 16, 2005)

I wish I'd kept it up at school. I would have been able to have watched 'Stalingrad' and 'Das Boot' without subtitles.


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## Anonymous (Jan 16, 2005)

Erich said:


> Verstehen sie ? dang, ah I suppose everyone want's a translation richtig ?



Ya, dat vould be gud


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## lesofprimus (Jan 16, 2005)

Das Boot kicked ass.....


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 16, 2005)

Best submarine movie ever made, bar none!


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## Medvedya (Jan 16, 2005)

If it's possible, the book is even better!

You can download the theme music for it here;

http://soundamerica.com/sounds/themes/Movies/dasboot1.wav


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 16, 2005)

If the writing was in Greek I would be better off . . .


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## Erich (Jan 17, 2005)

Gents I'll give ya the translation on the morrow. got to get back to meetings.....

Gruß


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## Erich (Jan 17, 2005)

ok my paraphrasing and I am really tired today, 3 hrs just doesn;'t cut it for me.

Basically the A-9 differed from the A-8 in the installation of the BMW 801 TU/TS, designed with larger bladed wooden propellar, although recently excavated wreck(I.JG 11)-15 February 45; was recovered with the earlier metal propellar. Other differecnes from the A-8 concerned the 14 bladed cooling fan, additional armor for the engine oil cooler, oil tank and the Schmierstoffkuhler(another cooling device). the covers the engine exhaust pipe system arrangements. Cylinders 9 and 10 shared a common exhaust on the D-2, but had individual exhausts in the new engine. Two A-5's served as test beds for the new engine....the Wrk. nummern seems to be no set pattern to the issuance of the w. nummers, some of the official documentation is contradictory and exact production figures cannot be determined, although from the w. nummers presented it maybe deduced that some 910 Fw 190A-9's were constructed......

time for a long Zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Erich


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## ju87 (May 25, 2008)

I said yes. It should have.

ju87


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 25, 2008)

ju87 said:


> I said yes. It should have.
> 
> ju87



Yes that is spam. Why don't you tell us why and quit spamming?


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## ju87 (May 25, 2008)

it was a good night fighter-bomber.

ju87 

:0


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