# Best U.S night fighter



## d_bader (Sep 10, 2005)

Which of these U.S night fighters were the best?  

A-20 Havoc- designated P70 A-2
P-61 Black Widow A5
Beaufighter Mk VIF
Hellcat F6F-5N
F4U-2 Corsair
P-38L-5LO Lightning

Please add comments on the planes aswell!


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## d_bader (Sep 10, 2005)

Sorry that this is not under the poll part of the site but no one explained how to put it there.

Someone please tell me.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 10, 2005)

You go to the section entitled "Polls" and then u create the topic u want and the poll u want... Not rocket science by any stretch....


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## evangilder (Sep 10, 2005)

If you can't figure it out, ask. Don't just put it anywhere. If everyone did that, you wouldn't be able to find anything here.


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## plan_D (Sep 11, 2005)

I don't know something, so I have to ask: Why is the Beaufighter in the "Best U.S night fighter" poll?


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## carpenoctem1689 (Sep 11, 2005)

Because some beaufighters were given to the USAAF, a small amount, but they were recieved.


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## plan_D (Sep 11, 2005)

That doesn't make it a US night fighter though, does it? The Soviet Union received Spitfires and Hurricanes, would you call 'em Russian? The U.S received Mosquitos, would you call 'em American? You better not or death will be ringin' your door bell.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 11, 2005)

I'm pretty sure he just means "Best night fighter used by the US". Nothing to get bent out of shape over.


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## plan_D (Sep 12, 2005)

It's still a disgrace. I'm ed. Watch me be ed...




...are you watching!?!?


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 12, 2005)

Yes.


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## plan_D (Sep 12, 2005)

Good...good.


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## Gnomey (Sep 12, 2005)

The P-61 was the only nighter fighter that was actually built as a night fighter the others were all converted bombers or fighters. It had good firepower but came so late in the war that air activity either night or day was almost non-existent, so it had little affect. Of the others I would say for me it is between the P70 and the Beaufighter and I am going to vote for the Beaufighter.


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## Erich (Sep 12, 2005)

P-61A and B. A big boy plane with some interesting seating configurations. the upper 4 .50 turret was not needed and removed in the ETO, the radar operator was also moved behind the pilot in the European conflict. the Pacific ? Quite an a/c that was loved by the crews


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## syscom3 (Sep 12, 2005)

Gnomey said:


> ...but came so late in the war that air activity either night or day was almost non-existent, so it had little affect. ....



I dont know about the ETO, but in the PTO the Japanese made frequent use of night time harrasment raids throughout 1944.

The P61 made it tougher for them to do that. One worry for the USAAF and USN for the Mariana islands was that those solo night attacks were going to get lucky some time and do some damage. Those islands were crowded "beach to beach" with eqmt, and it wasnt hard not to hit something even if you bombed blind. The P61's there ended those raids.

One thing I always found interesting on the P61's was their use of the zap flaps. The P61 had one of the fastest roll rates of any plane in WW2.


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## Erich (Sep 12, 2005)

I also think it is safe to say the P-61 may well have been one of the best if not thee best night ground attack a/c of the war, much more astute in this role than as a night fighter


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## Gnomey (Sep 12, 2005)

I agree Erich, as a night-time ground attack aircraft the P-61 rained supreme over all, but it wasn't quite as good in the night fighter role.


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## cheddar cheese (Sep 12, 2005)

Gonna have to be the P-61.


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## wmaxt (Sep 12, 2005)

Erich said:


> I also think it is safe to say the P-61 may well have been one of the best if not thee best night ground attack a/c of the war, much more astute in this role than as a night fighter



I have to agree with this, but it may have been the best US night fighter though the F6F and F4U did a great job too. 

The P-61 was to slow to be really good at night fighting and that resulted in the P-38M which never saw action.

I'm not sure what to pick?

wmaxt


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## Erich (Sep 12, 2005)

Something to consider as well is the one man, aka pilot and operator vs the pilot and seperate radar/radio operator in which was much more effective than the pilot alone


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## R Leonard (Sep 12, 2005)

In Pacific Theater nightfighter action, the P-61, as near as I can determine from official USAAF sources shot down 58 enemy aircraft in night missions/intercepts. In the China-Burma-India Theater we can find an additional 5 shoot downs. You have to be careful when you examine the record as a more often seen than not practice was to give credit to all crew members. Thus, in the majority of cases, if there were two crewmen, that’s two credits and if there were three crewmen, then that’s three credits. If you aren’t aware of this common USAAF nightfighter crediting convention you might easily be led to believe that there were 10 enemy planes shot down in night intercepts in the CBI Theater and 122 enemy planes shot down in night intercepts in the Pacific, but no, not so. You have to go back through and make an examination as to who was crewing which airplane during what encounter and that produces the numbers cited above. And how can you be sure? Well, ask yourself, “how many privates, corporals and sergeants do you think were P-61 pilots?” and it suddenly becomes very clear. 

On the naval side the big scorer was the F6F, with nightfighter squadrons, detachments thereof, or nightfighter divisions assigned to regular day squadrons, posting a total of 163 victories, according to official USN sources. The next highest naval scorer was the F4U with 16 followed by the PV(N) with 11, the PB4Y with 8, the TBF with 2, and the FM and PBY with one each. When I look back over the record, it appears to me that some of theses shoot downs actually occurred in morning and evening daylight conditions and so cannot be true nightfighter victories. My count, crosschecking with the trusty sunrise/sunset calculator, comes out to 136 for the F6F.

Regards,

Rich


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## syscom3 (Sep 13, 2005)

Theres a fantastic book about the P61 from Schiffer called "Queen of the midnight skies".

The book has loads of interesting info about the US nightfighter effort. I was surprised to find out that the Mosquito was held in higher regard than the P61. But, Britain wouldnt release any Mosquito's to the AAF, so we ended up using it.

Heres some info listed in the Appendix of the book.
Night fighter kills in the CBI:
426th FS had 5 kills
427th FS had 0 Kills.


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## evangilder (Sep 13, 2005)

Actually, I posted some pics a while back of a Mosquito in AAF service. They did operate quite a few. They weren't used for nightfighting duties, that I am aware of, but we did have some.


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## syscom3 (Sep 13, 2005)

I only show one Mosquito equipped night fighter squadron.

It was the 416th.

On the other hand, there were plenty of times when we had Beaufighters.


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## evangilder (Sep 13, 2005)

Both were capable night fighters too. I do know that Mosquitoes in AAF service also operated as pathfinders and weather recon scouts. I would have to do some digging to see what info I have on the Mosquito in AAF service.


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## Erich (Sep 21, 2005)

as I was once a member of the US night fighters association I will tell you from chatting with the 416th nfs rep that they wished they had the P-61 on hand earlier in the war instead of the Mossie. the Mossie was the only thing they had and they used it for effect especially in ground strafing. I have the 416th nfs microfische as well as the 422nd and 425th, 417th nfs.

Said it before will say it again, the US nfs crews wnated a fighter of their own and that was the P-61 Widow which they loved


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## syscom3 (Sep 22, 2005)

Did they give any reasons why they wanted the P61?

It sounded like the mousie was better than the P61.


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 22, 2005)

syscom3 said:


> Did they give any reasons why they wanted the P61?
> 
> It sounded like the mousie was better than the P61.



Check the creature comforts between the two and tell me what plane would you rather be in for hours at a time looking for enemy fighters?!?!  

I've seen the interiors of both. The P-61 looked way more comfortable and that was probably half the reason there. The Mossie was a great plane but the interior was designed for S&M.


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## syscom3 (Sep 22, 2005)

Leave it to the brits to have a "kinky" airplane.


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## Erich (Sep 22, 2005)

Syscom my last sentance says most of the reason, the US had much pride in it's a/c arsenal and they wanted their own a/c, not something they felt was borrowed.


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## Glider (Sep 22, 2005)

I haven't been in a P61, in fact I haven't seen one, but I have been in a Mossie. Its quite comfy, the crew have a good view and being staggered seats, shoulder room. They were warm to fly in (eat your heart out P38) but the Radar op must have been a little enclosed. 
The one I sat in was a bomber so lacked nearly all the electrics of a NF.


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 22, 2005)

Glider said:


> but the Radar op must have been a little enclosed.
> The one I sat in was a bomber so lacked nearly all the electrics of a NF.



That's what I'm talking about - I seen one and thinking about the NF equipment, I think I rather be in a ball turret!

It's funny, I also seen a Canberra and the navigator/ bombardier's station seemed the same way - there was a tunnel where you climbed into the nose, reminded me of climbing into the nose of a missle!


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## Glider (Sep 22, 2005)

The worst position ever has to be the Nav in a Sea Vixen. To all intents and purposes you don't have any window, bar a small hatch. Not for nothing was it nicknamed the Coal Hole.


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 22, 2005)

Glider said:


> The worst position ever has to be the Nav in a Sea Vixen. To all intents and purposes you don't have any window, bar a small hatch. Not for nothing was it nicknamed the Coal Hole.


  Great!

The Skyraider had a pretty dismal radar operator's position as well, at least it had a window!


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## evangilder (Sep 23, 2005)

Joe, did you ever climb through that narrow tunnel on a B-25 to get to the nose. Man, that is cramped!


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 23, 2005)

evangilder said:


> Joe, did you ever climb through that narrow tunnel on a B-25 to get to the nose. Man, that is cramped!



Yep! Another hell hole - The P2 neptune has one to go to the back end of the aircraft - Hey, we should start this as a thread! Aircraft with the most confined area!


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## wmaxt (Sep 23, 2005)

FLYBOYJ said:


> evangilder said:
> 
> 
> > Joe, did you ever climb through that narrow tunnel on a B-25 to get to the nose. Man, that is cramped!
> ...



The back seat in an early model P-38 would win. On some they didn't even change the canopy and they sat on the main spar at the same height as the bottom of the pilots seat for a floor.

wmaxt


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 23, 2005)

wmaxt said:


> FLYBOYJ said:
> 
> 
> > evangilder said:
> ...


  
Truly sadistic!


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## Glider (Sep 23, 2005)

Well Syscom, and you thought that only the British could be so kinky. Its true when they say you learn something new every day.


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## syscom3 (Sep 23, 2005)

Dohhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 23, 2005)




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## wmaxt (Oct 3, 2005)

Belive it or not Kelly Johnson rode their many times, in pictures he looks to be around 6ft and 200lbs in his P-38 years.

Does anybody have figures on the F6F and F4Us They flew fairly extensively in the theaters against Japan.

wmaxt


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## Marshall_Stack (Oct 6, 2005)

> Did they give any reasons why they wanted the P61?
> 
> It sounded like the mousie was better than the P61.



I have a book on the P-61 and it stated that a U.S. nightfighter squadron was going to receive the Mosquito because of negative reports on the P-61. A contest was held between the two aircraft and it was shown that the P-61 was more maneuverable.

I also believe that they would prefer U.S. aircraft. With a British aircraft, you would be flying on the wrong side of the sky!  

P.S. sorry for the lame joke..


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## mosquitoman (Oct 17, 2005)

The only 2 purpose-built nightfighters were the Beau and the Black Widow, of these the Beau was better.

For night ground attack the P-61 was better but IMO the Mossie was better


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## Burmese Bandit (Dec 5, 2008)

The US did very little night fighting in WW II...

For the design strengths alone, the P-61 wins hands down.



mosquitoman said:


> The only 2 purpose-built nightfighters were the Beau and the Black Widow, of these the Beau was better.
> 
> For night ground attack the P-61 was better but IMO the Mossie was better



The Beau was better? How can U say that? Look at the vision fields of the crew members in the P-61 versus the Beau! The Radar systems! And the Beau did not the the option of a belly attack...wheras the top turret of the P-51 gave that option, though it wasn't AFAIK actually used in War Two.


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## Glider (Dec 5, 2008)

The top turret was often removed which wouldn't have helped.


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## Burmese Bandit (Dec 5, 2008)

Not in the later versions! They had the buffeting problem solved by then....


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