# Never Drive onto a Live Fire Range



## Matt308 (Jun 13, 2008)

I'll let you judge the truth of the story...
__________________________________________

Here is a sobering shot of an SUV that got lit up by mistake, by an F16 driver near the air-ground gunnery range outside Dugway, Utah. 

The 'light paint and body damage' is the result of a one-quarter-second burst by the fighter's 20mm gun, which fires about 3000 rounds per minute. 

An estimated 70 rounds left the gun; the results are as you see here.

What's even more astonishing is - the SUV was being driven at the time. The driver and the guy in the right-hand passenger seat escaped with some light glass injury to the driver, and a dislocated shoulder to the passenger. The shots hit the gas tank, but didn't explode; the gas just leaked out. 

The passenger who normally sits in the back seat had just moved to another vehicle. 

The vehicle was on the military reservation, but a full three miles away from the gunnery range.

The pilot is probably doubtless be busily writing 'I WILL NOT ENGAGE SOFT CIVILIAN VEHICLES IN NO-FIRE ZONES' 1,000 times, after which he will be PCS'd to Shemeya AFB, Alaska .

The good news is that he only had 508 plus or minus 2 rounds of ball training ammo and not HEI (high explosive incendiary)! 

I would imagine this event will have an impact on his career!


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## Trebor (Jun 13, 2008)

holy jesus mary and joseph o.o I'm surprised no one was killed! this is almost like the time an empty Elementary school got strafed by an F-16


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## Glider (Jun 14, 2008)

I am still trying to work out if the Driver was lucky ur unlucky, that is lucky to survive or unlucky to be painted. 

For the F16 jockey its more than a little worrying that such a massive mistake could be made.


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## Kruska (Jun 14, 2008)

Well luckily nothing really bad happened. I wouldn’t know about Russian incidents – probably much more and worse, but the US Forces have quite a bad reputation for these kinds of incidents in Europe or the training areas of Grafenwoehr and Hohenfels in Germany. There is almost not a single exercise where US soldiers are not killed or badly wounded.

Many of these incidents later become exaggerated stories but the incidents as such I feel are too many just because of carelessness or irresponsibility on behalf of some individuals or commanders.

Regards
Kruska


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## Matt308 (Jun 14, 2008)

Yep, time to bring the boys home.


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## Wayne Little (Jun 16, 2008)

Lucky SOB's I would think the underwear would be a throw away....never get the stain out!!!


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## fly boy (Jun 16, 2008)

damn that was a good thing he didn't have hei rounds or the suv would be long gone


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## Gnomey (Jun 17, 2008)

Yeah, they were pretty damn lucky there!


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## Haztoys (Jun 17, 2008)

As a pilot why would you pump rounds into a SUV when your on a test range..??...He must of had a flash back thinking he was back in Iraq.?.. There's a peace of this story that not here kids..Strange.....

I lived in the out back of Nevada working in Mining for a time and there's not much out there ...The plane drivers would do test runs in on are trucks when we were out in the woods ...I'm sure they would get the truck on radar do a lock and in they would come at low levels .. The F-111's were bad a$$... Good testing I'm sure ..You world hear them coming and then there gone as soon as you herd them ...Dust and dirt flying.. I guess I'm luck that the pilot did not push the wrong button..Some people hated it ...I loved it ...


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## Karl Sitts (Jun 17, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> I'll let you judge the truth of the story...
> __________________________________________
> 
> Here is a sobering shot of an SUV that got lit up by mistake, by an F16 driver near the air-ground gunnery range outside Dugway, Utah.
> ...


mat308, It wasn't much good for the vehicle either!


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## comiso90 (Jun 17, 2008)

Kruska said:


> the US Forces have quite a bad reputation for these kinds of incidents in Europe or the training areas of Grafenwoehr and Hohenfels in Germany. There is almost not a single exercise where US soldiers are not killed or badly wounded.
> 
> Many of these incidents later become exaggerated stories but the incidents as such I feel are too many just because of carelessness or irresponsibility on behalf of some individuals or commanders.
> 
> ...



It would be naive to think that operations could be conducted on the scale that they are, at high speeds without "mistakes". Some mistakes would be fewer if the military was less restricted in their training. 

On the Italian base I was station on, we could not qualify with live rounds, we had to use the Miles laser system! Military force not allowed to have ammo! Some would say that diminishes the potential for injuries, others would say it woefully prepares potential combatants and primes them for even more serious errors when real ammo is called for.

A good friend of mine was killed on a training exercise when his Humvee rolled over. He died not because of carelessness but because of the scale of the operation in muddy conditions on a mountain road. The mathematics of the situation killed him, not complacency. Death and error are part of life when big toys and young, less experienced people are engaged in high risk behavior.

i'd be more suspicious of a military with a clean training record... are they training hard enough????? often enough???? 

Part of the price..
.


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## buzzard (Jun 17, 2008)

The vehicle in question was not 'civilian' per se, but was leased by the US Army for JTAC (Joint Tactical Air Control) training usage. The passengers were US Army air controllers...The incident took place at night.

Here's the link for the full account:

StandardNET/Standard-Examiner

JL


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## Kruska (Jun 17, 2008)

comiso90 said:


> The mathematics of the situation killed him, not complacency. Death and error are part of life when big toys and young, less experienced people are engaged in high risk behavior.



Hello comiso90,

It is not so much about accidents that find their cause within the mathematics of the situation but rather about simple neglect and attitude by the participants that I was referring to.
I have been a long time in the Bundeswehr and have seen dozens of occasions that would have been simply impossible in the Bundeswehr.

GI’s slugging around at each other with loaded weapons, aiming at each other, shooting randomly at targets without prior fire order, just too much non disciplinary childish behavior which off course will sooner or later result in mathematical results.

Therefore I am quite happy about the US Forces relying nowadays more on rubber bullets and laser. Such as the training camp Tikrit in Hohenfels. 










Regards
Kruska


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## comiso90 (Jun 17, 2008)

Kruska said:


> GI’s slugging around at each other with loaded weapons, aiming at each other, shooting randomly at targets without prior fire order, just too much non disciplinary childish behavior which off course will sooner or later result in mathematical results.



I am ill equipped to comment. I was in the USAF 15 years ago and my experiences were different. I never observed such behavior.

.


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## Matt308 (Jun 17, 2008)

...and such comments are contradictory to the professionalism that is exhibited by US forces. We can all point to poor behavior that is equal to a percentage of our country's contributions to military support.

Skull Scandal Expands: More Images Implicate German Soldiers in Afghanistan - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

Bad Behavior in Afghanistan: Macabre Photos Disgrace German Military - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

German soldiers shown 'desecrating' skull | Herald Sun

So what's the point...


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## Freebird (Jun 17, 2008)

I wonder how much of this happened in WWII but was never known or reported?  

{Lancaster flying outbound over London}

Bombadier to Pilot - I think I just dropped my cookie by mistake....


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## Kruska (Jun 18, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> ...and such comments are contradictory to the professionalism that is exhibited by US forces......
> 
> So what's the point...



This thread and my comments were about accidents or death caused on training areas by the US military due to irresponsible or non disciplinary behavior and not about some idiots mockery around a skull - which BTW involved other countries soldiers as well. 

Ever heard about US Soldiers actually taking a s*** on a Buddha figure in Thailand, or raping girls in Iraq – Bagdad, performing body search on Muslim women conducted by male soldiers, or playing doggie games with stripped POW’s in a military jail. These are things that sadly happen in any army, but again if you want to go into proportion of cases, the US forces will be ranking as #1, so much for that topic

If you can’t face the reasons in majority for accidents on US training areas, well then you have a problem not me.

So what is your point?

Regards
Kruska


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## pbfoot (Jun 18, 2008)

There are dummies all over the world but the chances of the Germans doing anything akin are slim since they don't do anything anyways


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## Haztoys (Jun 18, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> There are dummies all over the world but the chances of the Germans doing anything akin are slim since they don't do anything anyways



Nail on the head... And I would say Germany still holds the record on stuff like this with there rape of Europe at WW2... 

Some one pull the plug on the Kruska kicking the US ..over and over ..Its getting old ..

All wars have stuff like this ... But Germany took it to a new art in WW2 ...And so are the Muslims... 

Kruska mouth is getting old ... And he's only been here a month... All his posts just have to be a dig on America ...

Sorry to all the other Germans here on this post ...But I'm at appoint of ..A) stop posting ... Or ..B) Get a new hobby and it will be going after Kruska ..And I'm sure I'm not the only one here who feel the same way .. This place is getting no fun do to him...How it go about the one bad apple.

Someone pull the plug on this guy ...Please.. And I've been here sents 05 and you all know this is not my style... But Kruska's spreads hate and its getting old ...


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## Matt308 (Jun 18, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> There are dummies all over the world but the chances of the Germans doing anything akin are slim since they don't do anything anyways



thankyou Pb, as that is my ****ing point.


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## pbfoot (Jun 18, 2008)

If you reflect on history its all germanys fault anyway they are the ones who forced or gave more impetus for the Jewish folk to demand a homeland turning the Islamics people against the west as we backed the Israelis in the Palestine thing , Hence terrorism hence Afghanistan and I'm sorry but IMHO the Germans have turned turtle


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## Kruska (Jun 18, 2008)

Haztoys said:


> Nail on the head... And I would say Germany still holds the record on stuff like this with there rape of Europe at WW2...
> 
> Some one pull the plug on the Kruska kicking the US ..over and over ..Its getting old ..
> 
> ...



You are taking your mouth dam full my boy. Just because you or a few others here can’t bear to read others opinions and put up a good discussion, doesn’t simply imply that what you post is true or valid more than mine. Go and read my posts before you babble nonsense. If you don’t want to read it, well put me on ignore that is what this function is intended for.

You probably looked at that shot up vehicle and said: Wow man lock at those holes man, Jesus they really fu…ed up that car man, great shooting by the F16 guy, shows how dam good these guys are, wow. 

Regards
Kruska


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 18, 2008)

Folks - this is getting too heated so I want this sh!t to stop now or I'm locking this thread...


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## Kruska (Jun 18, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> If you reflect on history its all germanys fault anyway they are the ones who forced or gave more impetus for the Jewish folk to demand a homeland turning the Islamics people against the west as we backed the Israelis in the Palestine thing , Hence terrorism hence Afghanistan and I'm sorry but IMHO the Germans have turned turtle



For you I just feel sorry, I noticed that you love to heat up things when it comes to Germany, just go and read what you wrote; just total rubbish, no contribution at all, just stating utter nonsense. If you think that this forum is about pleasing others opinions and yours, well then you are wrong.

So don't forget to burn Marseilles 109, after all its evil, its German.

Regards
Kruska

*Sorry Mod, I posted this before I read your message.*


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## Njaco (Jun 18, 2008)

I agree, FlyboyJ. Opinions are opinions and Kruska has his. My only point is - and this is not exactly in defense of Kruska - but I haven't heard any name-calling as such from him. Maybe he has a harder edge on the US and I'm willing to debate (with my small firepower mouth! ) but as with anything, how about facts to support positions.

Accidents happen - some small scale, some fatal but all forces have them. There doesn't need to be country bashing.

If anything this story should ultimately be to never let your guard down - you never know what can happen.


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## Matt308 (Jun 18, 2008)

I've provided counter arguments, but it always comes back to Kruska taking a bash at US expense. And I won't let that pass. And acceptance of an opinion is a two way street. This is a discussion thread. Not a monologue thread.

I say lock it up. It's going to go nowhere.


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## Kruska (Jun 18, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> I've provided counter arguments, but it always comes back to Kruska taking a bash at US expense. And I won't let that pass. And acceptance of an opinion is a two way street. This is a discussion thread. Not a monologue thread.
> 
> I say lock it up. It's going to go nowhere.



Wow Matt308 what a statement.

You bring up a shot up vehicle; I mentioned that to my feeling there are too many accidents on US training areas due to negligence, and you “provide counterarguments” by pointing on a scull desecration committed by German and other soldiers in Afghanistan
. 
Regards
Kruska


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## Matt308 (Jun 18, 2008)

It's not this thread, Kruska. It's been a signature of your posts in virtually ever contribution in the Modern section. I don't follow your posts in other forums so can't comment.

Again I say lock this up. It's going nowhere.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 18, 2008)

*Gentlemen, It's locked and if I see this continue there will be infractions and bannings.....*


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