# Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo...



## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 13, 2004)

On the 18th April 1942 - four Months after the Japanese Attacked Pearl Harbour 16 B-25 Mitchell Bombers launched an attack on Tokyos industrial sector from the carrier USS Hornet 600 miles off the coast of Japan. The B-25s were NOT designed to be carrier based and they had to be cramed up on deck in their exact order of taekoff - the aircraft were lashed to the decks for 2 weeks at sea (getting checked over regularly) unfortunately they had to launch early as a Japanese patrol boat spotted them - the bombers had to have their weight dramatically reduced (broomsticks were used for guns!) to ensure the planes would clear the carriers deck - the crews practiced the takeoff many times. Despite the odds they all got off the deck and sucessfully raided Tokyo and ditched their aircraft over the Chinese boarder as planned and most escaped back home to the states ( A few were captured by the japs and others by Russians)

The raid was dubbed as a complete success though 8 Airmen lost their lives.

This raid was more designed to scare the japs and boost the morale of the US rather than actually cause much damage but my question is this...was this just an attempt for the Americans to score points and a waste of time and an unessasary risk to these brave mens lives or was it a sensational act of heroism? 

Opinions please 8)

(No crazed patriots please - only sensible opinions  )


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## Crazy (Mar 13, 2004)

In retrospect, I feel that it was more of a propaganda-boost attempt for our boys than an actual attempt to hurt the Empire. I certainly wouldn't call it an unnecessary risk of the lives of the men involved, but the mission's intent (in my opinion) of scaring and lowering the morale in Japan failed. At least, it was unsucessful enough that Japan didn't surrender, necessitating the use of the two atom bombs.


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 14, 2004)

well, if it was an attempt to boost morale, then it was an act of heroism as - in my opinion - morale is one of the greatest things an army can have in its arsenal 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 14, 2004)

na, that honour goes to suprise.....................


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 14, 2004)

Well i think the Japanese were pretty surprised!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 14, 2004)

hehe.....................


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## Rafe35 (Mar 14, 2004)

After mostly the men of B-25 Pilots Crews were capture by Japanese, I think only 3 men(or wasnt 4?) were sent to death from a "trial"


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 14, 2004)

Rafe35 said:


> After mostly the men of B-25 Pilots Crews were capture by Japanese, I think only 3 men(or wasnt 4?) were sent to death from a "trial"



Most of the crews escaped into China - one or two were injured during crash landings - one of the crews got a bit lost and put their plane down in Russian territory - the Russians were not involved in the war at that point so they arrested the Americans but later let them go (I wonder why?  )

All in all 9 Americans were captured by the Japs.
4 of them died from mistreatment (i.e torture) 3 of them were executed another died of Malnutrition and the remaining prisoner - Lt Robert Hite was released after 40 months imprisonment - though i'm not sure why he was let go..bit of a mystery really - I didn't think the Japs had a habit of letting their prisoners go (who does?) - anyone else know?


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## R Pope (Mar 14, 2004)

If you understand the Japanese concept of "Losing face" then you will see that the Doolittle raid was a great blow to Japan. It was never intended to do anything else.


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## Rafe35 (Mar 14, 2004)

bronzewhaler82 said:


> Rafe35 said:
> 
> 
> > After mostly the men of B-25 Pilots Crews were capture by Japanese, I think only 3 men(or wasnt 4?) were sent to death from a "trial"
> ...


I think one of the crew who bailed out and his chute would not open, so he died and I can't remember his name.


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 20, 2004)

interesing stuff....


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## GermansRGeniuses (Mar 21, 2004)

> well, if it was an attempt to boost morale, then it was an act of heroism as - in my opinion - morale is one of the greatest things an army can have in its arsenal


so is infinite (virtually) manpower, easy to produce weapons of war, a not as crazy as hitler dictator, and forcing to join the army!

Reichsmarschall Batista


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 21, 2004)

well yes......


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 21, 2004)

and the lancaster...............................


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 21, 2004)

R Pope said:


> If you understand the Japanese concept of "Losing face" then you will see that the Doolittle raid was a great blow to Japan. It was never intended to do anything else.



I read recently that the American authorities claim the raid did more than just upset the Japs sense of honour...apparently it eased up the fighting in certain regions because the Japs pulled large numbers of their fighters back to defend their capital (Tokyo) from further attack - a very useful thing for the Americans who had a few problems with the Jap airforce at the very beginning of the war 

So therefore you could argue that it had more than a demoralising effect on the Japs...i can't say for sure if the americans just made that info up to justify it (i don't think they'd bother) but it seems plausable to me


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 21, 2004)

> and the lancaster...............................



and the hurricane.......


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## jj1982 (Mar 22, 2004)

well, perhaps this is a case of the american aircrew showing great heroism and bravery to make thier superiours look good???? Did the attack make any real difference to the war effort? Did it save allied lives? Did it kill and maim innocent civilians? It sounds to me as if it did very litlle but to give the americans a chance to parade and spread propagada about how great and effective they were! This is my opinion so feel free to shoot it down....call me anti american (Bronzewhaler, not a word!) or whatever.....


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 22, 2004)




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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 22, 2004)

jj1982 said:


> well, perhaps this is a case of the american aircrew showing great heroism and bravery to make thier superiours look good???? Did the attack make any real difference to the war effort? Did it save allied lives? Did it kill and maim innocent civilians? It sounds to me as if it did very litlle but to give the americans a chance to parade and spread propagada about how great and effective they were! This is my opinion so feel free to shoot it down....call me anti american (Bronzewhaler, not a word!) or whatever.....



Sorry old friend but it has to be said - you hate Americans more than the Japs do!  I said at the start of the thread NO crazed Patriots....although you aren't a yank you certainly qualify as a crazed patriot...you crazy welshman...  anyway...

It was a bit of a show-off mission but you certainly can't overlook the amazing flying skills and courage of the airmen involved...they were told right at the start (just to show how much faith the americans have in their own abilities) that most of them wouldn't get back alive and that cos it was a volunteer mission they could drop out at any time and nothing would happen to them...most of them had families back home with young children...but not a single one quit at all - they all got through - being able to lift the B-25 off the deck of the carriers was actually deemed IMPOSSIBLE by some skeptics but they all got airbourne and hit the target...in answer to your query about wether it had an effect on the war...like i said it withdrew the jap airforce for the rest of the war so they could keep an eye on Tokyo (part of the reason the yanks suffered heavy losses bombing Tokyo after that) but most of all it really really really scared the crap out of the Japanese who up til that point considered themselves tight as a drum and almost untouchable by anyone...its just like they say...always hit your enemy where he thinks hes safest


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 22, 2004)

wow, good points 8)


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 22, 2004)

jj1982 said:


> well, perhaps this is a case of the american aircrew showing great heroism and bravery to make thier superiours look good???? Did the attack make any real difference to the war effort? Did it save allied lives? Did it kill and maim innocent civilians? It sounds to me as if it did very litlle but to give the americans a chance to parade and spread propagada about how great and effective they were! This is my opinion so feel free to shoot it down....call me anti american (Bronzewhaler, not a word!) or whatever.....



Oh yeah another thing...its my personal opinion that bombing civilians is a disgrace....dropping bombs on populated areas with young children living there is the invention of a sick sick person and anyone who agrees with it (i'm sure deep down you don't JJ1982) deserves to have something extrmely unpleaseant happen to them... 

It is unnessasary and although i'm sure someone will argue that it is an effective means of forcing a nation into surrender...i think bombing the hell out of their industrial factories so they can no-longer produce weapons of war and bombing their army barracks and training facilities so they have no troops is just as (if not more) effective than killing millions of people who are just as normal as you or I...raids like the Doolittle raid win my approval - all the raids in the war should've been like that - no civilian casualties and damage to enemy industry 

8)


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## jj1982 (Mar 22, 2004)

I wasnt saying that it is good to bomb civilians...although perhaps my wording could have been better in my last post...i totally agree with you bronze...I am however sticking by all my other points!


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## GermansRGeniuses (Mar 22, 2004)

bronzewhaler82 said:


> jj1982 said:
> 
> 
> > well, perhaps this is a case of the american aircrew showing great heroism and bravery to make thier superiours look good???? Did the attack make any real difference to the war effort? Did it save allied lives? Did it kill and maim innocent civilians? It sounds to me as if it did very litlle but to give the americans a chance to parade and spread propagada about how great and effective they were! This is my opinion so feel free to shoot it down....call me anti american (Bronzewhaler, not a word!) or whatever.....
> ...


no civilian casualties and damage to enemy industry!

sorry mate but that isnt the truth...
as crazy as it would bedown there in tokyo of course some pilots missed their target... a hospital was hit and many died but you dont need to point out the point of the mission which other than boosting/lowering morale was hitting an industrial target. but you know, mistakes happen..


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## jj1982 (Mar 22, 2004)

not unusual for the americans to miss thier targets!


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 23, 2004)

jj1982 said:


> I wasnt saying that it is good to bomb civilians...although perhaps my wording could have been better in my last post...i totally agree with you bronze...I am however sticking by all my other points!



And i'm putting your other points down for having an unhealthy dislike for ANYTHING American


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 23, 2004)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> bronzewhaler82 said:
> 
> 
> > jj1982 said:
> ...



I was talking about DELIBERATE civilian bombing...besides where did you hear that they hit a hospital? why the hell would a hospital be anywhere near a huge munitions industrial area?


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## jj1982 (Mar 23, 2004)

ha.....


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## GermansRGeniuses (Mar 23, 2004)

well target recognition wasnt that easy and workers need hospitals too mate as for my source, i dont know if it was internet or a book... if its a book ill check if its not.....

Reichsmarschall Batista


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## GermansRGeniuses (Mar 23, 2004)

ok, here goes!



> The raid was a success, but hardly flawless. Most of the planes flew off course and missed their targets. Doolittle's payload was intended for an armory, but it destroyed the city's largest hospital instead.



the rest of the paragraph is irrelevant. but it must be noted that there was less room for correcting errors since they took off 150 miles before the original takeoff location. (this happened because the _Enterprise_ , the escort/companion carrier, detected enemy ships about and fearing losing the element of surprise, launched the bombers 650mi away from tokyo, again 150mi farther than expected) but as i stated in my long post bronze, i know that the mission was not to bomb civilians! please reread the end of the post!

Reichsmarschall Batista


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 24, 2004)

I know mistakes happen during heated bombing runs - its just of personal interest to me - so i wondered where you got the info from thats all


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## jj1982 (Mar 24, 2004)

Correct me if i am wrong...for i usually am, but did we not bomb catherderal cities in Germany in retaliation to the mess they made of london????


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 24, 2004)

Of course we did and we killed alot of German civilians - the Germans did start the mass-bombing first though but that doesn't make it right - there really was no need for it but as we all know..the Germans weren't exactly terribly PC were they...?


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## jj1982 (Mar 24, 2004)

so the point i am trying to make is that although civillian bombing is wrong...everyone did it intentionally because of the demoralising effect it had on the countryon the recieving end....except of course britian who just seemend to take it inher stride....


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 24, 2004)

We found it extremly demoralising...you wouldn't be human if you didn't but we only did it out of retaliation...not cos we enjoyed doing it...the Germans however..


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## jj1982 (Mar 24, 2004)

well, as neither of us were about at the time i can only go by what i have heard and seen....to me the pictures of families smiling and joking about it says a lot....i'm not saying that they werent upset...of ourse they were, what i am saying is that the British held thier upper lip stiff and refused to let a small matter like the blitz affect the way that they felt....they showed tremendous courage and great resiliance whereas other countries may have broken down and given in (spain recently is a good example!)


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 24, 2004)

jj1982 said:


> well, as neither of us were about at the time i can only go by what i have heard and seen....to me the pictures of families smiling and joking about it says a lot....i'm not saying that they werent upset...of ourse they were, what i am saying is that the British held thier upper lip stiff and refused to let a small matter like the blitz affect the way that they felt....they showed tremendous courage and great resiliance whereas other countries may have broken down and given in (spain recently is a good example!)



One word. Propaganda

During the Battle of Britain the newspapers were full of pictures of airmen lazing about on airfields smoking cigarettes with huge grins on their faces and 'tally ho' and all this other stuff when in fact they were all terrified and didn't often smile and joke and who could blame them? - it was propaganda - you fill newspapers with stories of our frightened airforce and civilians of london living in fear and you'll have mass hysteria and bad feelings and low moral all round. My grandparents lived in Fulham during the blitz and they've told me what it was like.


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## jj1982 (Mar 24, 2004)

Yes admittdly so....Of course at the time those civillians would be portrayed as carefree etc....but after 60 years......


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 24, 2004)

After 60 years what? we still have our pride y'know and as you say...if nothing but propaganda exsits whos to say modern historians don't beleive it...you know what they say..its the victors that write the history - i'm sure if that evil b****** Hitler had won records would be different


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## jj1982 (Mar 24, 2004)

well, of course records would be different....for one he would have won and we would have lost!


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## jj1982 (Mar 24, 2004)

now thats a pretty important fact!


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 24, 2004)

I think when the Americans hit that industrial area in Tokyo it was basically just a middle finger up to Japan  especially as they tied Japans peace medals to the bombs! - just payback really - although it did have more of an effect on the war then the Americans originally planned


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 11, 2004)

actaully the mass bombing of germany didn't have much effect untill we started "round the clock bombing".....................


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 12, 2004)

But the American raid on Tokyo DID have an effect on the war with Japan because the Japanese pulled back more of their airforces resources to protect Tokyo from another embarrassing attack from the Allies and so eased up the pressure on the Americans in future - until i suppose the yanks started bombing the Japanese mainland!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 14, 2004)

sorry, i got a bit confused about fronts, i was ferefing to the war in europe.......


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 15, 2004)

Yeah, i had guessed that 8) - this thread is about the groundbreaking American attack on Tokyo in 1942


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## Crazy (Apr 15, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> ferefing




Err, what?


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 16, 2004)

I think he meant 'referring'


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 16, 2004)

what is up with the lancs spelling?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 16, 2004)

it's better than yours..............


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 19, 2004)

it isnt  mine only appears poor due to the patheticness of my keyboard


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 23, 2004)

sure..................


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## TimT1 (Apr 26, 2004)

From what I understand, the Doolittle Raid succeeded in it's goals of improving US morale at a time when we needed it, and proving to the Japanese that their home land wasn't immune to attack. It also caused the japaneseto move up their attacks on Midway and in the Coral Sea, which as you all know resulted in a strategic (albeit not tactical) victory in the Coral Sea, and a decisive victory at Midway. 
As for the name of the airman killed when his chute didn't open. his name was Corporal Leland Faktor IIRC. Hope that helps


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 27, 2004)

he's got a funny name......


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 28, 2004)

ironic too, cos he done a lot, not a little 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 28, 2004)

i deafinatly think the tokyo raid was one of the turnng points in the pacific war...............


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 28, 2004)

and i definetly think you're on ex or something! it had no military vlaue whatsoever, it was however a turning point in the war with morale


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 29, 2004)

> and i definetly think you're on ex or something! it had no military vlaue whatsoever, it was however a turning point in the war with morale


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 29, 2004)

> and i definetly think you're on ex or something! it had no military vlaue whatsoever, it was however a turning point in the war with morale



a war can't be won if there's no morale, it really made the japs think, and it really lifted the spirits of the americans..................


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## brad (Apr 29, 2004)

it noked the japs over and killed to many people lets hope it does not happen again


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## plan_D (Apr 29, 2004)

It wasn't the turning point, Midway was the turning point.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 1, 2004)

i never said it was THE turning point, i know midway was the turning point, i said it was A turning point..............


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## cheddar cheese (May 1, 2004)

> a war can't be won if there's no morale, it really made the japs think, and it really lifted the spirits of the americans..................



a war cant be won if theres no victories either 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 2, 2004)

which is why the french were never any good...............


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## cheddar cheese (May 2, 2004)

8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 2, 2004)

there you go, spamming away..................


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## cheddar cheese (May 2, 2004)

you see, when you complain about my tiny bit of spam, it converts into lots of spam, so your kinda contradicting yourself


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 2, 2004)

you could save us allot of time by not spamming at all, if you can't think of anything to say, don't say anything................


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## cheddar cheese (May 2, 2004)

you dont have to keep mentioning my spam though - i only do it when i agree with something, if i can build on what someones said then i do keep quiet 8)


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## Lightning Guy (May 2, 2004)

I don't know if anyone has hear this, but after landing in China Doolittle believed he would be courtmartialed because of the mission.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 2, 2004)

> you dont have to keep mentioning my spam though - i only do it when i agree with something, if i can build on what someones said then i do keep quiet



i fail to see how going "8)" builds on what some-one says...................


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## cheddar cheese (May 30, 2004)

so do i, C.C youre a right a-hole


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 30, 2004)

wow, you had us all fooled there.............


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## cheddar cheese (May 30, 2004)

hey, i used to think i was schizophrenic, but now im in two minds about it


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 30, 2004)

it's funnier if you say "i used to be schizophrenic, but we're ok now"..............


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## plan_D (May 30, 2004)

The Doolittle raid wasn't even a turning point, the Americans still had an awful lot cut out for them. Midway was only the turning point in the Pacific, not the whole war.


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## Lightning Guy (May 30, 2004)

Midway shattered the myth of Japanese invincibility, the Doolittle raid made the first chink in that myth. The Dootlittle raid was also important for its role in causing the Japanese to attempt to force the "decisive battle" at Midway. It is possible, that without the Dootlittle strike, Midway would never have occurred.


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## plan_D (May 31, 2004)

But I doubt that very much since they were both pushing for Midway. It was going to happen no matter what.


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## Lightning Guy (May 31, 2004)

I didn't say I agreed with it completely. But if the Japanese had delayed with the Midway attack and Shokaku and Zuikaku could have recovered from the Coral Sea damage, what then? These were the two best carriers the Japanese had and their presence at Midway would have made a huge difference.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 31, 2004)

what would have happened if the jaos had one Midway??


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## Lightning Guy (May 31, 2004)

The only difference it would have made is that it would have extended the war. Japan lacked the industrial and economic might to beat the United States in anything but the shortest of wars. Refer to this link for a very detailed discussion concerning this 'what-if'
http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm


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## brad (Jun 3, 2004)

im glad i wasnt in tokey that day


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