# Was Hartmann a liar?



## Shadar_Logoth (May 30, 2005)

FANA N° 423 FÉVRIER 2005
Erich Hartmann, un total contesté : 352 victoires ou 80 ? (D. Khzanov)






In that article says that 352 claims for Hartamann, were false, mainly says that he shoot down and nobody confirmed that and if you check the soviet loses in those combats, there is many many many difference.

It says also, that there is not Luftwafe documented reports about those claims, what do you think? Was Hartmann a lier?. 

Regards
[/img]


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 30, 2005)

They says that Hartmann could had downed 80 enemy planes, which is still an impressive number.


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## lesofprimus (May 30, 2005)

While the Russians are quick to discount his victories, and the days and locations pointed out, their claims of his victories are ALSO innacurate... Hartmann had a wingman (several actually) and 90% of his kills were confirmed.........

The rest is all propoganda...... Hartmann was NEVER a liar....... A very modest man till his death actually.......


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## me262 (May 30, 2005)

you can not trust the soviets reporst, put it this way: soviet propaganda , also remember tht the big difference beetwen the germans and allied pilots was that the allies usually took 6 months or x number of flgiths, on the german side, it was until the pilot was capture( pow), die or was injured


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 30, 2005)

You only mention soviet Propaganda, but what about german propaganda?.
90% victorys were confirmed by his wingman, that's a not good way to confirm. I can't trust soviet reports but I have to trust Hartmann wingman reports... not serious.

Hartmann got his first victory in 1942, but he claimed more victorys when the reds got their best airplanes and they were in the offensive against germans, since 1943 (La5's, La5's Fn, Yak's 3). 

The best way to confirm the victories is to check german claims versus soviet loses and make an aproximation. And I am talking about official reports, secret files and so.

I see that you are from USA and I suppose you know what happened with the Korean War USAAF claims, don't you?. USA and Rusia checked their files and... but sure you know that.


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## me262 (May 30, 2005)

there is the problem: do you think the goverment is going to allow us to search in the secrets file they have, i.e. the british gov have some files regarding the hunt of the bismarck and they will be declasified in 20 to 30 years more , why ? are they hiding something they do not want us to know?
also how we civilians can check that?
even here with the freedom of speach and search, we are limited to the info we can gatter 

if i can remember well, it was not only the wingman to support the claim also it needed to find the wreck site to confirm me kill


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## me262 (May 30, 2005)

it was said that a plane is dangerous in the capable hands, do not matter is they are better or worst, the finish pilots managed to claims several victories, and aces, against the soviets in old buffalos, hence is the pilot that counts, another example is the spit and the 109, after the war they encountred againt this time the 109 got te upper hand, under the israelis pilots agains the arab spits


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## FLYBOYJ (May 30, 2005)

If Hartman was a liar, why did the Russians put a 10,000 ruble price on his head? Why did local VVS units label his aircraft "The Black Devil," why did the Russians imprison him after the war and try to charge him for the deaths of close to 500,000 Soviet citizens? Hardly the treatment for an 80 kill ace. And as mentioned, his wingmen confirmed 90% of his kills. How can someone make such an outrageous statement just boggles my mind! The guy who wrote that article is an idiot, I bet never served in an air force and never flew or worked around an aircraft. An "armchair" historian who sits on his brains!


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## Chocks away! (May 30, 2005)

Well i have to agree. The man was nothing short of a hero, as his leadership was notable even when he was a POW in Russia! He just happened to be on the ''wrong'' side.


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## me262 (May 30, 2005)

> The guy who wrote that article is an idiot


simply, is a frenchman
and as i can understand many frenchys are sore with 1/2 the world,specialy germany and the usa
i understand the german part, but the usa? , they must be gratefull that today they do not speak german, thanks to the usa


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 30, 2005)

me-262 said:


> they must be gratefull that today they do not speak german, thanks to the usa



oh god you don't honestly believe that do you??


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## Soren (May 30, 2005)

FLYBOYJ said:


> If Hartman was a liar, why did the Russians put a 10,000 ruble price on his head? Why did local VVS units label his aircraft "The Black Devil," why did the Russians imprison him after the war and try to charge him for the deaths of close to 500,000 Soviet citizens? Hardly the treatment for an 80 kill ace. And as mentioned, his wingmen confirmed 90% of his kills. How can someone make such an outrageous statement just boggles my mind! The guy who wrote that article is an idiot, I bet never served in an air force and never flew or worked around an aircraft. An "armchair" historian who sits on his brains!



Agreed  

And why then did they charge him of shooting down more than 300 Soviet a/c ?

Hartmann was NEVER a liar ! And I would without doubt even dare to say that a whole 95% of his confirmed kills are 'actual' kills.

---------------------------

And for Shadar, 

Don't ever believe these Soviet dream-stories that try to degrade German scores, as they are all dirty lies ! 

The German confirmation system was the most strict and most accurate of WW2 ! On the other hand the Russian confirmation system was as inaccurate as almost can be, and relied heavily on unreliable partisans !

The Soviet ace Ivan Kozhedub doubtedly got even half of his kills  

For example: Some soviet aces with scores from 30-40 kills, didnt even get 10 kills in reality ! All this has been established by looking in German loss-records, which 'again' are the most accurate of WW2.

Btw I actually remember Charles presenting a site commenting this Russian "fantasy-writer"=Khazanov: http://members.aol.com/falkeeins/Sturmgruppen/hartmannclaims.html

Now who's the liar ?  

In any case there's one thing you can be VERY sure of; The German confirmed kills are MUCH MUCH MUCH more accurate than the Soviet ones !

------------------------------

As sidenote: The W-Allies had a comparable confirmation system to the German one, but a little less strict by comparison.


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## Soren (May 30, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> me-262 said:
> 
> 
> > they must be gratefull that today they do not speak german, thanks to the usa
> ...



Lanc without the U.S. involvement, the victory 'would' have gone to the Germans. 

Think about it, no D-day, no Western and southern front to hold. If this had happened the Germans would have taken Russia, simple as that.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 30, 2005)

i don't want to go down this raod again, the last moron that came here with that atitude got kicked off........


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## cheddar cheese (May 30, 2005)

To be honest Soren has a point.


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## me262 (May 30, 2005)

> The W-Allies had a comparable confirmation system to the German one, but a little less strict by comparison.
> [/quote
> the problem with the american system it that they alowed share victories and count the one in the ground as a kill, in strafing raids


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## Soren (May 30, 2005)

the lacaster kicks ass said:


> i don't want to go down this raod again, the last moron that came here with that atitude got kicked off........



This has nothing to do with attitude, its just fact.

The U.S. played a HUGE part in defeating the Nazi's !

The British, Canadian, french etc etc... troops all fought equally well and with just as much determination as the U.S. troops, but there's only so much one relatively small country can do.

Without the U.S. involvment there would be no D-day, no landing in Italy, no huge scale bombing of German industry = German victory in Russia.

And I dont think I need to tell you what would happen if Russia was defeated, now do I......... Britain would fall within the next year ! (If not sooner)


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 30, 2005)

me262 said:


> there is the problem: do you think the goverment is going to allow us to search in the secrets file they have, i.e. the british gov have some files regarding the hunt of the bismarck and they will be declasified in 20 to 30 years more , why ? are they hiding something they do not want us to know?
> also how we civilians can check that?
> even here with the freedom of speach and search, we are limited to the info we can gatter
> 
> if i can remember well, it was not only the wingman to support the claim also it needed to find the wreck site to confirm me kill



Historical Archives are open (paying) in Germany and Russia, in Russia since 1992, many writers and studients could see that files. I'm not talking about military secrets, only historical files.

I'm not speak in russian, but there is hundred of publications about WW2, many of it in Internet.


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 30, 2005)

FLYBOYJ said:


> If Hartman was a liar, why did the Russians put a 10,000 ruble price on his head? Why did local VVS units label his aircraft "The Black Devil," why did the Russians imprison him after the war and try to charge him for the deaths of close to 500,000 Soviet citizens? Hardly the treatment for an 80 kill ace. And as mentioned, his wingmen confirmed 90% of his kills. How can someone make such an outrageous statement just boggles my mind! The guy who wrote that article is an idiot, I bet never served in an air force and never flew or worked around an aircraft. An "armchair" historian who sits on his brains!



That's a myth, Stalin purged many people without many evidence using false acusations, why do you believe that with hartmann was true? Do you have any docummented information about that reward?. It's a myth made for the western point of view about war.

Anyway, that article talks about 80 kills, thats is good enough.

And Rudel claimed 500 tanks, of course that's not an exageration


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## Nonskimmer (May 30, 2005)

Soren has an excellent point here. The US did a _tremendous_ part in WWII, and without their involvement victory for the Commonwealth and for the Soviet Union would have been exceedingly difficult _at best_. In fact, the war in the west would have certainly raged on for much longer than it did. There's no question.
Don't forget, the United States helped with materiel and supplies long before they began sending troops and planes too. Without them, victory would have been very much in doubt. It's a fact.


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 30, 2005)

me262 said:


> > The guy who wrote that article is an idiot
> 
> 
> simply, is a frenchman
> ...



Oh, so, frenchman is = to idiot?, nice argument.

But D Khazanov is not french, is one of the best East Front historian, he wrote many books, some of them with Yef Gordon and it have access to german and soviet ww2 files.

USA helped a lot to the European Freedom, but remember that 70% of german loses were in the Eastern Front, I repeat, 70% of all the german WW2 losses. Only in Kursk, they lost near 1 million soldier, only 1 battle.

And please, do not insult nations


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 30, 2005)

Soren said:


> FLYBOYJ said:
> 
> 
> > If Hartman was a liar, why did the Russians put a 10,000 ruble price on his head? Why did local VVS units label his aircraft "The Black Devil," why did the Russians imprison him after the war and try to charge him for the deaths of close to 500,000 Soviet citizens? Hardly the treatment for an 80 kill ace. And as mentioned, his wingmen confirmed 90% of his kills. How can someone make such an outrageous statement just boggles my mind! The guy who wrote that article is an idiot, I bet never served in an air force and never flew or worked around an aircraft. An "armchair" historian who sits on his brains!
> ...



Sure?

Remember BoB (Battle of Britain):
RAF only shoot down 65% of their claims
OKL shoot down only 30% of their claims
Who's the liar?.

Don't believe the german propaganda also, where is the documents which proves that 352 kills, just when the Germans lost the iniciative. 
But 1 more thing, how many of you read that article?


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 30, 2005)

> In any case there's one thing you can be VERY sure of; The German confirmed kills are MUCH MUCH MUCH more accurate than the Soviet ones !



Explain me how to be so accurate behind the enemy lines, when the russian were in offensive. 

Many myths here, but few facts. Many years of "cold war" I see.


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## me262 (May 30, 2005)

i read somewhere that before the allied landings, stalin ask the allied powers to open a new front, i.e. the landing in normandy, cos he was not sure if the could stope the new german summer offensive.
also , rusio got a LOT of war material, including tanks, ammo, planes , vacum tubes and more important truck, which the russian lack


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 30, 2005)

Soren said:


> the lacaster kicks ass said:
> 
> 
> > i don't want to go down this raod again, the last moron that came here with that atitude got kicked off........
> ...



The USA made a great effort in defeating germany, but soviets made THE BIGGEST EFFORT. I repeat again, Germany lost the 70% of his military and economic power in the east front, germany produced more planes than never in 1944 (and tanks also)... see the data about DDAY and battles in East Front like Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Kiev, Leningrad or the Balatton offensive. 

Lean and leasing from USA was the 4% of the soviet production, it's an important help (which was paid, of course), but is not so important to say that without USA germany would have won the war.

Imagine Germany with 7 million soldiers more (casualties in East Front) with all the equipment lost in the East, do you think that DDAY would have been the same?


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 30, 2005)

me262 said:


> i read somewhere that before the allied landings, stalin ask the allied powers to open a new front, i.e. the landing in normandy, cos he was not sure if the could stope the new german summer offensive.
> also , rusio got a LOT of war material, including tanks, ammo, planes , vacum tubes and more important truck, which the russian lack



Yes, a landing that never happened until 1944, when Germany was pretty near to be defeated...

All the equipment from the Lean and Leasing was about 4% used by soviets.


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## mosquitoman (May 30, 2005)

The Russians simply overpowered the Germans on the Eastern front, Britain held on so there was a base to launch offensives into mainland Europe and America supplied everyone with everything- from men to Liberty Ships. Each of the main Allies deserve praise for different things


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## CharlesBronson (May 30, 2005)

me262 said:


> > The guy who wrote that article is an idiot
> 
> 
> simply, is a frenchman
> ...



Incorrect

Actually it was wrote by the russian "historian" Dimitri Kazhanov, wich is not an idiot , but a clever guy, wich handles and modificate the truth with maquiavelic effect.

I dont blame it, must be hard that a single german pilot blasted away so many fellow countryman.

Aniway, he failed in his purpose of make Hartmann a mediocre pilot simply because he wasnt.


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 30, 2005)

look at this
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/German_tank_production_during_World_War_II
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Soviet_tank_production_during_World_War_II
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/German_aircraft_production_during_World_War_II


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 30, 2005)

Or look at this and compare:
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Battle_of_Normandy
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Battle_of_Kursk
only 2 examples.


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 30, 2005)

CharlesBronson said:


> me262 said:
> 
> 
> > > The guy who wrote that article is an idiot
> ...



He did not say that Hartmann was a poor pilot, he says that is one of the best WW2 pilots, but overclaimed the kills. That's common in all the WW2, Why not Hartmann?. Yes, because Germans did not used propaganda, of course Nazis did not use propaganda against those "inferior" eslaves. 


I see that all this issue is a "faith" question.


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 30, 2005)

mosquitoman said:


> The Russians simply overpowered the Germans on the Eastern front, Britain held on so there was a base to launch offensives into mainland Europe and America supplied everyone with everything- from men to Liberty Ships. Each of the main Allies deserve praise for different things



I agree, war was won by ALLIES.


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## Udet (May 30, 2005)

*YAWN*


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## mosquitoman (May 30, 2005)

So it's taken us 2 pages to say that no Hartmann wasn't a liar and that all the Allies deserve equal praise, wasn't it worth it


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 30, 2005)

mosquitoman said:


> So it's taken us 2 pages to say that no Hartmann wasn't a liar and that all the Allies deserve equal praise, wasn't it worth it



Sorry, but I don't have any evidence that Hartmann were not a liar, I believe that he overclaimed his air kills.
But not all the Allies deserves equal praise, in Pacific War USA had 95% effort, in European War URSS had 70% effort (german loses in east front). Allies won the war, but not with the same numbers and importance.

But the discussion was about Hartmann, so, if all of you say that is not a liar, could you show me any evidence, file, investigation about his 352 kills?.
I'm not a religious guy, so, I have not faith.

When a country loses a plane ina war, it's registered, so, it's very easy to check german claims vs soviet loses and have an aproximation of the real numbers. And Im not talking about propaganda (nazi or soviet), I'm talking about LW files and VVs files, both accesible to the historians and investigators, like Korean War files.

Regards


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## mosquitoman (May 30, 2005)

I'm not going to argue because I don't know where to get all that data, because of that I'm taking the middle ground. I'm not saying he overclaimed on purpose but in the heat of battle a plane seen streaming glycol could have been classed as a kill but actually make it back to a friendly airfield and land


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## Soren (May 30, 2005)

> Sure?
> 
> Remember BoB (Battle of Britain):
> RAF only shoot down 65% of their claims
> ...



You are, cause that right there is a lie  



> Don't believe the german propaganda also, where is the documents which proves that 352 kills, just when the Germans lost the iniciative.
> But 1 more thing, how many of you read that article?



I've read it, and its pure bull**** (Excuse me).

But you obviously didnt read the article I presented you, wich proves just how big a liar Khazanov is, and how worthless his article on this subject is !

Here, I present you it again, now read it very carefully: http://members.aol.com/falkeeins/Sturmgruppen/hartmannclaims.html

See... He cant even get the numbers right !  



Shadar_Logoth said:


> Historical Archives are open (paying) in Germany and Russia, in Russia since 1992, many writers and studients could see that files. I'm not talking about military secrets, only historical files.



Russian loss records are not open to the public, period. And even if they were they werent worth anything, as the Russians didnt bother writing losses up in any detailed way, wich is why their loss archives are notoriously inaccurate.



> The USA made a great effort in defeating germany, but soviets made THE BIGGEST EFFORT.



The Russians no doubt lost more men than any other country in the war, meaning it cost them the most in men and material as a single country, but, the combined casualties of the W-Allies and damage inflicted on Germany by them, more than makes up for that.



> I repeat again, Germany lost the 70% of his military and economic power in the east front, germany produced more planes than never in 1944 (and tanks also)... see the data about DDAY and battles in East Front like Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Kiev, Leningrad or the Balatton offensive.



Let me put it like this: That data is "WRONG", and your also forgetting so many things i don't even bother mentioning them as it would take ages.



> Lean and leasing from USA was the 4% of the soviet production, it's an important help (which was paid, of course), but is not so important to say that without USA germany would have won the war.



Again your totally forgetting the German point of view ! If the Germans were only fighting the Soviets wich only had Britain as help, the Soviets wouldn't stand a chance ! 

Think about it, if the U.S. werent involved the Germans were free of daily mass bombing raids, and two BIG fronts ! More than enough to secure a sure victory in the east without doubt !



> Imagine Germany with 7 million soldiers more (casualties in East Front) with all the equipment lost in the East, do you think that DDAY would have been the same?



  

7 million soldiers !!!  You really dont know your numbers !

Here's the facts: 

During WW2 German casualties were: *3.25 million Soldiers dead.(75-80% Eastern front)* / 2.44 million Civilian dead. Total= 5.29 million. (*Even the Total number isnt even close to your highly exaggerated number !*)

Russian casualties: *12-13 million Soldiers dead.* / 17 million civilian dead. Total= 29-30 million.

W-Allied casualties: *1.67 million Soldiers dead.* / 6.44 milllion civilian dead. Total= 7.11 million.

Now may I ask, where did you get those outrages loss figures of yours ?

In any case you might as well stop it Shadar, cause your so horribly wrong about this subject !

---------------------------------------------

Let me remind you of some facts, now you may ignore them (I dont care), but now I showed you them and there's no disputing them now:

*During WW2 the Germans had the most accurate and most strict confirmation system in the world. 

The Russians had a confirmation system which was one of the very worst in the world, being only equaled by the Japanese system !*

Now think about this.


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## reddragon (May 30, 2005)

I know this is off topic but it looks to me like the Russians overran German positions in part by simply using massed numbers of troops. While the Germans put a great deal of emphasis on the quality of their weapons, the Russians were able to churn out massive numbers of weapons with less emphasis on quality, since they didn't seem to care if the troops came back or not. I've seen stories of how the Russians would take men who had already been put behind bars and force them to interlock their arms and walk across minefields. 

My father saw the same thing in Korea. The Chinese would attack in huge numbers and it didn't matter how superior our weapons were, the men would run out of ammunition or become exhausted and the Chinese would still come. When you're willing to sacrifice large numbers of troops, any position can at some point be overrun. That's simply what the Russians did because they simply didn't care.

They did make some fine weapons, like the T-34, but they still had no concern for the individual soldier. The officers had a choice, win or face execution themselves. 

I saw an interview with a Russian woman who killed a German general (can't remember either name, sorry) and she told about how she was to be awarded a medal and while in Moscow to receive it was warned that they were planning on executing her after she got it so she went into hiding. If you're willing to execute those you parade as heros, that doesn't say much for all the others who are unknown to the public.


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## Soren (May 30, 2005)

Shadar_Logoth said:


> Sorry, but I don't have any evidence that Hartmann were not a liar,



Sorry, but you don't have even a single shred of evidence that he was 

And neither has anyone else !


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## Erich (May 30, 2005)

go do some frickin research SL. There is a book on JG 52 already written as well as some exhaustive research already in print by German author Bernd Barbas. Funny how many say Erich H. is full of crap and have no basis for their claiming so. JG 52 was the top scoring Jagdgeschwader with over 11,000 kills. Hartmanns wingman was also an Ritterkreuz winner with over 110 kills to his credit. Guess he's full of crap as well..........in fact all the Luftwaffe eh ?

JG 51 with over 9000 kills'
JG 54 with over 9500 kills'.

IV.Sturm/JG 3 with over 450 alone ! yes they are all liar's...............

geez I could state further but why, go to Tony Woods listing whcih is directly from Freiburg and find Eastern front victories from 1941 till December 1944, you can get almost all of his kills plus the area of engagement included.....


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## lesofprimus (May 31, 2005)

***Yawn....... Good info Soren......

AS near as i can make out from documentation, over 250 of Hartmans claims were verified by film......


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## Udet (May 31, 2005)

Guys:

Sorry to tell you this, but why on earth are you bothering following the game of this individual?

It would be better if you leave him alone making the thread all by himself trying to "convince" no one but himself Hartmann was a liar. Let him shout in the desert alone.


By just reading some of his ruddy ridiculous hogwash you can learn either how ignorant or brainwashed -or both- this individual is. So the Wehrmacht lost "1 million" men at Kursk? No shit! That is about the entire German OB for such battle, so this enlightened poser is telling something like no German soldier survived Kursk. I mean, making comments and clarifications to such comments is pointless. 

You better retreat to the pit you came from before you receive some rough treatment here.

You are so full of shit the stench is unbearable here. Something is rotten around here and right there wherever you are located.

If there is an opean liar here it would be this individual. So russian files are "open to the public"? So you are convinced present day "democratic" Russia has opened their files to the "public". Wow! A perfect exercise of transparency exercised by the neo democratic Moscow bureaucracy. Who the hell do you work for? Who pays you? How much did you got paid to go out and make a fool out of yourself?

As I said before, i am just way too familiar with these post bolshevik keepers of the truth whose comments have common patterns; the following two are some of them and this rings the bell of the soviet propaganda:

(i) *Lend Lease was 4 percent of soviet production.*

But of course; well, "only 4 percent"...such a tiny useless help. "With or with out you". So LL had no effect. 4 percent? Well, perhaps the USA and Britain, in an act of good will and sincere friendship, decided to sent small gifts to the communists, the reason? Well, just for the fuck of it. Or perhaps it was a case of very bizarre charity for the soviets did not need it to fight Germany and perhaps the allied fridge was so full they decided to give some of their stuff away.


(ii) *The idea of highly accurate and customized soviet records of their own losses of men kept during the war is implied in their comments.*

Trying to make it appear work for researchers "couldn´t be easier". Want to know if any pilot -soviet or foe alike- shot down what, when and where? Well, all you have to do is consult our "files" -gladly open for the public- and you will have the answer!

Soren brought up a precious point: the partisans involved in the process of confirming soviet victories!!!! I will be damned. The ultimate guaranty of accuracy. That is as naive as it gets. It would have been better for them soviets to hide that part of their process and to keep it to themselves. 


Do not research that much for you might be surprised Hartmann not only shot down 352 enemy planes but perhaps a few more.

JG 52...read some names: Rall, Batz, Graf, Barkhorn, Grislawski, Trenkel, Wolfrum, Dutmann, Steinhoff, Hartmann...names for the history of military of aviation who finished the war...the VVS never came nowhere near in dealing with JG 52 did you know?

Likewise, go and make a "free" consult of soviet files "gladly open" to the public and you might find the bulk of the soviet aces never shot down what their official scores say. Understand? Inflated records for most of them.


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## GermansRGeniuses (May 31, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> To be honest Soren has a point.




Yeah, he does.

It's pretty simple that France had her arse saved by the U.S., since the early Allies failed to hold her in 1939.


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## delcyros (May 31, 2005)

It should be also mentioned that France did in some points participated in the VVS campaigns by their Normandi-Njiemen squadron. This could explain...
The russian government does not allow investigation of their VVS losses for the second world war, it plays a major role for them. 
I believe that Hartmanns victories are to a very, very high degree correct. Just keep soviet anti Hartmann measures in mind: He was accused in the destruction of 346 soviet airplanes and found guilty in this. This can be counted as an official soviet statement.
However, the VVS is often seen very unbalanced. Actually it flew twice as many combat sorties as the opposing Luftwaffe on the eastern front and all in all an equally number of combat sorties of both, UK and US airforces. It also has an equally number of losses (like RAF+USAAF). The efforts of the Luftwaffe are impressive because they did less combat sorties but more damage to them. However, the surviving of the SU in 1941-43 was highly important for the allies and the help of the allies (particularly in this timeframe) was key factor in surviving of the SU. LL doesn´t include weapons only, keep in mind that ~65% of the granary in 1942 came via Land lease...


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## plan_D (May 31, 2005)

I have just two points here. 

The 'early' Allies didn't hold France in 1940 but Britain didn't have to stick her neck out to try and help France. France had the second biggest army in Europe, second to the Soviet Union, she should have been able to defend herself!

The other point, in Stalingrad 6th Armee was lost. With it was lost 300,000 men captured or dead. The Soviet Union made a huge deal about that and so do many historians to this day. 
Who knows what happened in Tripoli? In case you didn't know, the British 8th and 1st Army, with the US 7th Army captured 250,000 German troops. Along with the 8th Army costing the German forces 100,000 before U.S involvement. As well as the over 200,000 Italian troops. 

The Italians might not have been the greatest army in the world but an enemy soldier with a gun is still a threat. We were fighting the AXIS not Germany. The Allies captured more Axis troops in Africa than the Soviets did in Stalingrad but Stalingrad gets ALL the praise and Africa none...it pisses me off. 

Anywho, simple answer to the thread starting question, *no*.


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## evangilder (May 31, 2005)

Agreed, Plan_d. One thing I would like to add is that if a reasoable, accountable number of Soviet dead could be ascertained, how many were killed by their own people? Remember, those who retreated were shot by their own Kommisars.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 31, 2005)

Shadar_Logoth said:


> FLYBOYJ said:
> 
> 
> > If Hartman was a liar, why did the Russians put a 10,000 ruble price on his head? Why did local VVS units label his aircraft "The Black Devil," why did the Russians imprison him after the war and try to charge him for the deaths of close to 500,000 Soviet citizens? Hardly the treatment for an 80 kill ace. And as mentioned, his wingmen confirmed 90% of his kills. How can someone make such an outrageous statement just boggles my mind! The guy who wrote that article is an idiot, I bet never served in an air force and never flew or worked around an aircraft. An "armchair" historian who sits on his brains!
> ...



YES - It was in the transcripts of his trial. The Soviets tried to charge him for the deaths of 500,000 people saying that he killed over 300 Russians in air-to-air combat then they tried to say that his aircraft carried 1400 rounds of ammunition, each round killed 1 Russian - TOTALLY INSANE!

This has been documented by the West German Government and was also mentioned in his book "The Black Knight."


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## FLYBOYJ (May 31, 2005)

Udet said:


> Guys:
> 
> Sorry to tell you this, but why on earth are you bothering following the game of this individual?
> 
> It would be better if you leave him alone making the thread all by himself trying to "convince" no one but himself Hartmann was a liar. Let him shout in the desert alone.



You know Udet, I should of read your post before I answered him!


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 31, 2005)

> You are, cause that right there is a lie


No, there isn't, thats' a fact.



> I've read it, and its pure bull**** (Excuse me).
> 
> But you obviously didnt read the article I presented you, wich proves just how big a liar Khazanov is, and how worthless his article on this subject is !
> 
> ...



Yes, I have read it, but it only showns opinion, not data, so, is so true as Pope divinity, you believe or not. So, show me any evidence that Khazanov lies or, if you can't, at least leave a bit for the doubt.



> Russian loss records are not open to the public, period. And even if they were they werent worth anything, as the Russians didnt bother writing losses up in any detailed way, wich is why their loss archives are notoriously inaccurate.



You should add "those inferior russians"  . Why do you afirm that ? any evidence again?. NO, you haven't, so, stop assume things that are not true. Every plane is taken account by any Air Force, vvs included. IF there is a mission with 30 IL2 and only get back 10, those numbers are taken account. 



> The Russians no doubt lost more men than any other country in the war, meaning it cost them the most in men and material as a single country, but, the combined casualties of the W-Allies and damage inflicted on Germany by them, more than makes up for that.



And Germany loses were about 70% in East front, 30% rest of the fronts. Russia lost 9 million soldiers (27 million people with civilians), Germany near 7 million soldiers.



> Let me put it like this: That data is "WRONG", and your also forgetting so many things i don't even bother mentioning them as it would take ages.



I have time, beguin. That data is TRUE, every historian knows it, every good historian, I mean. Live with it, wetern fron only afected Germany in a 30%, included Africa. Yo do not need t investigate so much to get that data. 



> Again your totally forgetting the German point of view ! If the Germans were only fighting the Soviets wich only had Britain as help, the Soviets wouldn't stand a chance !
> 
> Think about it, if the U.S. werent involved the Germans were free of daily mass bombing raids, and two BIG fronts ! More than enough to secure a sure victory in the east without doubt !



No, the German point of view is very similar, they know that they lost the war in Soviet Union, you should read some survivors.
Bombings raids? Are you talking of Bombing Raids?. Germany produced more planes, tanks and other military components in 1944 that any of the other year. and remember, first GErman defeat was in 1941, near Moscow. No War with USA then.
The problem with Germany was a bad strategy from the beguinning, in that way, they woulkd never defeat Soviet Union, the same as Napoleon.



> 7 million soldiers !!! Laughing You really dont know your numbers !
> 
> Here's the facts:
> 
> ...



Your facts, not THE facts, it's a difference.
Russian soldiers were "only" 9 millions, not 12
Not only Germans fighted in Soviet Union, Axis forces included Rumanians, Hungarians, Italians... But you say:*"During WW2 German casualties were: 3.25 million Soldiers dead.(75-80% Eastern front)"*. It's enough for me  75-80% lost in East Front. That is a fact.



> During WW2 the Germans had the most accurate and most strict confirmation system in the world.



That's a MYTH and that was not true, only german lovers say that. Propaganda Nazi was the most powerful in the war. They used a more accurate system in Western front, but EVERY country overclaim his victorys, and GErman much more than Allies, as you can see in BoB. Tell me how they could confirm a victory in East Front fighting behind enemy lines, Who confirmed shoot down at land?. NOBODY. You have to believe Hartmann word, and his wingman, of course friends. Show me any credible data about that, any Luftwaffe documentation about that accurate system with Hartmann. MYTHS, MYTHS and more MYTHS



> The Russians had a confirmation system which was one of the very worst in the world, being only equaled by the Japanese system !



Another MYTH, russians were killed for lie, Stalin and NKVDA were not the guys whi liked pilots lying about his victorys. You forget that VVS claims were over own terrytor mainly, they see the plane fall. 

Of course in this theme always the same, Russian were inferior (like Nazis thought), German superior, russians were lyers, German men of Honor... blablabla. 

Demonstrate that, show me evidences and I will believe you.


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 31, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> ***Yawn....... Good info Soren......
> 
> AS near as i can make out from documentation, over 250 of Hartmans claims were verified by film......



Where is those films?, Where is that documentation?. It's very easy demonstrate this


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## Erich (May 31, 2005)

my one posting which you obviously have not read gives you a full account of Hartmann's victories and the unit he served with.

quit babbling your mouth off and go do some serious research before you come on this forum and start executing the forum members....


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 31, 2005)

Soren said:


> Shadar_Logoth said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, but I don't have any evidence that Hartmann were not a liar,
> ...



No, neither of us has evidences, only thoughts and some data collected from books, which are different depending from the author. So, I creatd a post asking if he was a lier, you say not, you say Khazanov or me aer liars, so, show me any evidence.


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 31, 2005)

> Guess he's full of crap as well..........in fact all the Luftwaffe eh



If you read history, every country overclaim their kills, VVS, LW, RAF... everybody.


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 31, 2005)

Erich said:


> my one posting which you obviously have not read gives you a full account of Hartmann's victories and the unit he served with.
> 
> quit babbling your mouth off and go do some serious research before you come on this forum and start executing the forum members....



Yes, but where is the source, where is the documentation about those kills, where is the LW files about this... could you shown me?


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 31, 2005)

> He was accused in the destruction of 346 soviet airplanes and found guilty in this. This can be counted as an official soviet statement.



That is a myth, show me source of that, show me any document, soviet files about those accusations... some info more than the myth.


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 31, 2005)

> But of course; well, "only 4 percent"...such a tiny useless help. "With or with out you". So LL had no effect. 4 percent? Well, perhaps the USA and Britain, in an act of good will and sincere friendship, decided to sent small gifts to the communists, the reason? Well, just for the f**k of it. Or perhaps it was a case of very bizarre charity for the soviets did not need it to fight Germany and perhaps the allied fridge was so full they decided to give some of their stuff away.



I have said that 4% is important (but LL was not a gift, as you should know), but is not determinant and is not the cause why URSS defeated Germany in East Front.


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 31, 2005)

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/pokryshkin.html


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## Erich (May 31, 2005)

do a search for Jagdgeschwader 52. C'mon you come here and start rustling the bushes with the know-it all atitiude making quite sure that this Dimitri guy has all the statistics of the Soviets as well as the German units that hartmann fought with, compared the histories and day by day events and then proclaims the truth that the Ritterkreuz winner is lying aobut his kills.

Do not ask any more of us to show proof, you need to hunt the information for yourself on your own. I do not care for posers and you are typlifying one by the starting and commenting negatively on this thread. Want answers; the REAL truth then start searching realistically. you have been given a start with the link provided from my friends/mine webpages on the book article written in the French magazine. Jean yves Lorant is a French history authority and you can take his comments as fact as he has done serious German research for the past 35 years. Hans Ring has the Luftwaffe confirmations in his personal holding and he is consulted daily through the Fliegergehmeinschaft in Deutschland for these confirmation by serious authors and research historians from all countries.


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 31, 2005)

If you Read Solzhenitsyn's Archipelago Gulaj, you should know that not many people would like to Lye Stalin...


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## FLYBOYJ (May 31, 2005)

Here's an old story link from Pravda. If this isn't Soviet acknowlegment of Hartman's wartime record, I don't know what is!

http://newsfromrussia.com/society/2002/12/13/40785.html


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## Shadar_Logoth (May 31, 2005)

A newspaper is a reliable data? :O
Amazing.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 31, 2005)

Shadar_Logoth said:


> A newspaper is a reliable data? :O
> Amazing.



Its coming from the same place where Hartman's record is disputed. The only thing amazing here is someone gullible enough to believe this trash 8)


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## plan_D (May 31, 2005)

It just proves your knowledge on the war if you claim that Germany lost 7 million while the Soviet Union only lost 9 million. 

Try again. 

The recognise Soviet loss figures for combatants is 13.6 million. The numbers of total Soviet losses range from 8 million to 40 million! For medium, we'll say total of 25 million. 

The German military losses amounted to a mere 4 million on all fronts! You've certainly come to the wrong place if you're trying to state that the Soviet forces were on par tactically with the Wehrmacht. 
I am probably right in thinking you're left minded and want to downplay the *fact* that Germany was superior to everyone in World War 2 in tactical thinking and military action. 

The first defeat of Germany was suffered over the skies of Britain in 1940. Not in front of Moscow. 

The Western Allied bombing campaign hampered the German war machine greatly! Not only did it destroy German factories but it also destroyed the German oil production in 1944. The Wehrmacht required 300,000 tons a month of oil for an effective mobile war, by September 1944 they were getting just over 150,000 tons!

Also, the Germans had to divert over 10,000 FlaK18 36 88mm cannons to defend the Reich from air attack, along with the hundreds of thousands to crew the guns and RADAR stations. 

14% of British Empire war production went to the Soviet Union. The U.S.A supplied the Red Army with 506,000 trucks, jeeps and APCs. Those mobilised the Red Army. 

If you can tell me what Ubiyat Sukinsyna Adolfa means and where it was written. I might think you know what you're talking about because without knowing that and trying to downplay the Western aid to the Soviet Union, you're just a moron. 

Have a nice day.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 31, 2005)

plan_D said:


> If you can tell me what Ubiyat Sukinsyna Adolfa means and where it was written. I might think you know what you're talking about because without knowing that and trying to downplay the Western aid to the Soviet Union, you're just a moron.
> 
> Have a nice day.


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## cheddar cheese (May 31, 2005)

Well said pD  Seems a good place to end it.


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## Medvedya (May 31, 2005)

I know adding to a locked thread is a bit naughty of me, but I really want to make one final point here as well. 

Vigorously debating a topic is good, but remember that all the best historians present their facts and opinions in a calm dispassionate manner. 

Make of that what you will.


The gist of that Russian is 'Kill that son of a bitch Adolf', BTW. Doesn't really work as 'Sookin Sin' is two words.


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