# Unknown aircraft



## Snautzer01 (Apr 10, 2015)

I have no idea...It could be russian as there is a mig3 in the background


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## Wayne Little (Apr 10, 2015)

Can't help either....interesting enough though.


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## Capt. Vick (Apr 10, 2015)

I'm thinking French as there is a French bomber behind it, though the Czechs also built that one under license IIRC. IMHO it looks like something a few kids made out of cardboard!


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## buffnut453 (Apr 10, 2015)

The aircraft to the right of the MiG 3 looks like a Farman bomber so maybe just a zoo of captured aircraft...which means it could be from anywhere. It's ugly enough to be French, though.

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## Graeme (Apr 12, 2015)

Just noticed this thread.

My immediate thought was a miniature Beardmore Infexible - which has me thinking Rohrbach - maybe a variant of the Roland series?
The wingtip certainly looks similar...






The hunt continues and I've enlisted help.


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## ScreamingLighting (Apr 12, 2015)

It looks like a Roland VIIIa to me. It had up-rated engines from the Roland VIII and a longer fuselage. (notice the difference between the pic Graeme posted and the unknown)


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## GrauGeist (Apr 12, 2015)

While it looks very much like a Rohrbach RoVIIIa "Roland", I am troubled by the vertical stabilizer on the original photo versus the RoVIIIa.

In the original photo, the vertical stabilizer raises from the fuselage in more of a "traditional" sense (leading edge would appear to be diagonal in profile) while the VIIIa (or open cockpit VIII) leading edge raises straight up from the fuselage in a vertical ascent (appearing to be a "square" seen in profile)


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## Graeme (Apr 12, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> While it looks very much like a Rohrbach RoVIIIa "Roland", I am troubled by the vertical stabilizer on the original photo versus the RoVIIIa.
> 
> In the original photo, the vertical stabilizer raises from the fuselage in more of a "traditional" sense (leading edge would appear to be diagonal in profile) while the VIIIa (or open cockpit VIII) leading edge raises straight up from the fuselage in a vertical ascent (appearing to be a "square" seen in profile)



Dave, I'm wondering if there is something in the background that is interfering with the stabiliser silhouette, particularly as that is a very dark area in the photo?

On the positive side - the triangular cargo door, passenger door, windows and that cooler intake at the front all seem to match...










Cheers.


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## GrauGeist (Apr 12, 2015)

Look at th cowl just ahead of the windscreen (shrouded) and notice that there isn't a radius to the cowl, as seen in your photo (post #5) and again, in the artist's rendering.

The cowling is squared off. And as far as the vertical stabilizer, it's certainly tapered, as you can see re-inforced structures (part of the hangar, perhaps) behind the aircraft, eliminating the possibility of something blocking the view of the tail structure.

There certainly seems to be something unique about this aircraft. Perhaps a prototype or a "one off" of the existing Rohrbach airframe?


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## buffnut453 (Apr 13, 2015)

Or it could just be something else getting in the way of the fin. It's pretty dark and blurry in that area so hard to be specific. For my money, it's a Rohrbach...you can even see the "D" of the civilian registration under the wing.


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## Wurger (Apr 13, 2015)

Maybe this can help a little bit...


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## Snautzer01 (Apr 14, 2015)

Secret Luftwaffe German school at Lipezk Russia had a Rohrbach Ro VIII "Roland I" coded D-991 wrk nr 18 build in 1926. 1928 Rebuilt as a bomber Ro VIIIMb or Ro XII "Roka" School ran from 1926-1933 I think after the school closed they left this old crate behind.


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## Capt. Vick (Apr 14, 2015)

Interesting...


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## ScreamingLighting (Apr 14, 2015)

A conversion from an obsolescent model possibly? It doesn't look quite right for any model, including the VIIIa. Maybe a Roland I/II converted to VIIIa standard?


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## Njaco (Apr 14, 2015)

I think Schnautzer may have it. Look at the landing gear of the SE fighter to the right of the pic. Looks like a placard on the landing gear like a museum or something similar.


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## nuuumannn (Apr 14, 2015)

I can tell you exactly where the image was taken. It's outside the Deutches Luftfahrt Sammlung in the centre of Berlin. Take a look at this picture I took of a model at the Deutches Technic Museum of the old Berlin museum. At left is the stairs the guys are standing on, with the trimotor at top centre, the French bomber (Bloch MB-200) to its left and the MiG in front of them both.






Here's another view of the same model;

http://forum.ioh.pl/graficzki2/1307672632_124.jpg

According to lists of the aircraft at the museum, it is Rohrbach Rolland II D-1720/D-AHOL 'Niederwald':

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Luftfahrtsammlung_Berlin

http://forum.ioh.pl/graficzki2/1320724452_tf0004a.jpg

Here's a pic from a forum showing the same view from a different angle, with the Bloch at centre, the MiG just visible in front and the Roland at left with its left wing and engine nacelle only visible.

http://forum.ioh.pl/graficzki2/1320899855_a2.jpg

From here:

http://forum.ioh.pl/viewtopic.php?t=19897

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## Snautzer01 (Apr 14, 2015)

Nice detective work. But is the diorama wrong in the direction the Bloch and the Rohrbach are pointing? Should the be parallel?


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## nuuumannn (Apr 14, 2015)

Take a look at the photo again, Snautzer, you can see that the Bloch is at a different angle to the Rohrbach.


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## Njaco (Apr 14, 2015)

Excellent stuff Nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuman!


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## Airframes (Apr 14, 2015)

Is that a Nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuman, as in Gary Nuuman !?
Gave him a lift down a bumpy runway once, so he could see where he'd get airborne in his Harvard for a display. He commented on my driving (in a Toyota Land Cruiser, at speed, on a grass strip!), so I commented on his music - nuff said !!

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## Capt. Vick (Apr 14, 2015)

Nice!!!!!!


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## Graeme (Apr 15, 2015)

Nice info here on the bomber version of the Roland...

Google Translate


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## Njaco (Apr 16, 2015)

Airframes said:


> Is that a Nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuman, as in Gary Nuuman !?
> Gave him a lift down a bumpy runway once, so he could see where he'd get airborne in his Harvard for a display. He commented on my driving (in a Toyota Land Cruiser, at speed, on a grass strip!), so I commented on his music - nuff said !!



"...in Cars!"


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## GrauGeist (Apr 16, 2015)

Ok...finally am getting back to this after a few delays 

The aircraft certainly looks like a Rohrbach Roland series, but there is a few odd things about it that stand out.

First, the photo:
We can see that the quality of the photo isn't all the great and it's not completely flat as presented.





Now to tidy it up a bit so we can see the tail structure and the cowling and tail a little better:





The Rohrbach Roland series had a "squared" tail design. So in this photo, even slightly warped, the vertical stabilizer should be at a right angle to the fuselage. I examined the photo closely and used the trees in the background and the staircase ballisters as a guide. The leading edge of the vertical stabilizer is actually inclined at a diagonal from it's base at the fuselage.

A better view here:





Also, the cowling of the aircraft is not radiused (with exposed exhaust stacks) between the prop and the windsheild like several of the Rohrbach types had, where an enclosed cockpit was part of the design. A few of the Rohrbachs that had the extended exhaust fitted, but an open cockpit. That is not the case here:





I am not saying that this is some other type. I certainly feel that this is in fact a Rohrbach, however, I am saying that it has some unusual design differences that don't seem to be very common.


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## buffnut453 (Apr 16, 2015)

Using the term "common" in relation to a Rohrbach? Things that make you go "Hmmm!"

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## nuuumannn (Apr 17, 2015)

> "...in Cars!"



I preferred Are Friends Electric, myself, mind you, those two are the only Gary Numan songs I know!


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0WNbm1jz6A_



> The aircraft certainly looks like a Rohrbach Roland series, but there is a few odd things about it that stand out.



You are probably right Dave, a few modifications, but it has to be remembered that the aircraft at the museum was a museum piece and quite possibly, or did actually undergo some modification at some time before it was retired or even when it went to the museum. What is really needed is a clear image of its tail feathers.

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## GrauGeist (Apr 17, 2015)

nuuumannn said:


> You are probably right Dave, a few modifications, but it has to be remembered that the aircraft at the museum was a museum piece and quite possibly, or did actually undergo some modification at some time before it was retired or even when it went to the museum. What is really needed is a clear image of its tail feathers.


Agreed, however, it seems that photos of the displays are really hard to find. I am certain that a good number of folks took photos during their visit that could provide some better details, but sadly, I'm sure many of those were lost during Berlin's fall.

And you know, when I see "Nuuumann", I hear Jerry Seinfeld's voice 


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98dai6CC5BA_

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## Snautzer01 (Apr 19, 2015)




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## Wurger (Apr 19, 2015)




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## nuuumannn (Apr 25, 2015)

> And you know, when I see "Nuuumann", I hear Jerry Seinfeld's voice



Even one of the guys at work goes "Numan! I knew it!


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## Snautzer01 (May 10, 2015)

Rohrbach Roland, D-1756 Lufthansa


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## Wurger (May 10, 2015)




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## Snautzer01 (Jun 23, 2016)




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## Wayne Little (Jun 23, 2016)

Interesting...


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## Gnomey (Jun 24, 2016)

Good stuff!


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## Wurger (Jun 24, 2016)

Wayne Little said:


> Interesting...




Agreed.


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## Capt. Vick (Jun 24, 2016)

Ok, I give up. What is it?


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## buffnut453 (Jun 24, 2016)

Dunno...but it looks like a mock-up to me. So is it posted on the correct thread? Will the thread police take punitive action. Enquiring minds want to know.


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## GrauGeist (Jun 24, 2016)

While the 4-engined aircraft is interesting, what really has my attention is the aircraft nestled between the starboard 1 & 2 nacelle. 

And unless the photo has been reversed, that smaller aircraft's canopy is opened in an odd direction, too.

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## fubar57 (Jun 24, 2016)

Saw that too Dave as well as what looks like a radiator exhaust under the fuselage


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## Airframes (Jun 24, 2016)

It reminds me of the 'Guppy' series of aircraft, used to transport wings and other aircraft assemblies.
My initial thoughts were that it looks like a mock-up for a French type, but have a look at the main landing gear - very like that of the HP Halifax.


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## GrauGeist (Jun 24, 2016)

Is this even German?

I'm trying to remember if Robert Bartini had a 4 engined transport project for the Soviets during the war


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## Capt. Vick (Jun 24, 2016)

Italian?


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 24, 2016)

The landing gear seems so out of place. I wonder if it's a mockup.


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## GrauGeist (Jun 24, 2016)

I enlarged various portions of that photo here on the ipad (this thing is awesome for that), perhaps they might help a little...


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## buffnut453 (Jun 24, 2016)

Almost has a South American feel to it..but I still can't place it.


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## michaelmaltby (Jun 24, 2016)

I'm betting it's the Bristol Brabazon


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## Capt. Vick (Jun 24, 2016)

Nah....

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## GrauGeist (Jun 24, 2016)

Those nacelles don't look like they're for radials, either.

Actually looks like it's being set up for inverted Vees, perhaps?


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## Graeme (Jun 24, 2016)

Made a quick sketch. The thing that struck me most about this mock-up are those windows waaaay at the top...higher than the cockpit level...


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## Graeme (Jun 24, 2016)

Which made me think "double-decker" and French in particular. Breguet was my first choice, but I could find no project to match it.

But then, I found the *Air Wibault 100*....


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## Graeme (Jun 24, 2016)

And my drawing's nose was completely wrong!


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## GrauGeist (Jun 25, 2016)

Well done, Graeme!! 

So I see that this project was to have Gnôme-Rhone GR P.18 engines but that was supposedly changed to Hispano-Suiza engines instead.


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## fubar57 (Jun 25, 2016)

Great job Graeme. Was thinking along the lines of the Breguet myself. Now we need the aircraft with it's tail towards us. Jet?


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## Snautzer01 (Jun 25, 2016)

Good job Graeme,

next:


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## Wurger (Jun 25, 2016)




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## Wayne Little (Jun 25, 2016)




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## Capt. Vick (Jun 25, 2016)

Way to go Sherlock!


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## GrauGeist (Jun 25, 2016)

Snautzer01 said:


> Good job Graeme,
> 
> next:
> 
> View attachment 346964


Hmmm...that sure looks alot like an Arado Ar96...


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## fubar57 (Jun 25, 2016)

Thought the same but the tail and nose look different...






....unless it's a later model


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## GrauGeist (Jun 25, 2016)

The Ar96 and the Ar396 definitely has a different tail structure, canopy configuration and much larger engine cowling.

The resemblance is very close, however.


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## Capt. Vick (Jun 25, 2016)

Could it be the ellusive Arado 196 or 296...


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## Graeme (Jun 25, 2016)

Well, my eyes are shit, but it looks like there's a cranked leading edge to the wing?







Based on the profile, a Klemm Kl 35 of sorts, with an enclosed canopy? I can't explain the presence of the canopy.


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## Graeme (Jun 25, 2016)

fubar57 said:


> Now we need the aircraft with it's tail towards us. Jet?



This one? I was thinking it was a nose?


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## Graeme (Jun 25, 2016)

Sorry mate, now I'm with ya, this image?...

French I suspect!


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## fubar57 (Jun 25, 2016)

That's it, thought it might be an Arsenal. And you're two for two Graeme...


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## GrauGeist (Jun 25, 2016)

Look at the cockpit and the maingear, they aren't the same. The mystery ship has a greenhouse canopy along the style of a Ju87 or a Bf110.

If it's a Klemm, it's an extremely rare varient...plus it's not in test/prototype livery, it's been assigned to an active unit.


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## fubar57 (Jun 25, 2016)

Spats could have been removed for snow but the area behind the cockpit is different as well.....so close


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## GrauGeist (Jun 26, 2016)

Well, after a considerable search, I have come to the conclusion that the "mystery ship" is certainly a Klemm Kl35.

It turns out that there were quite a few "oddballs" associated with the single-seat, dual-seat and the floatplane version. As we've seen, the Klemm even had a "sporty" sedan style closed canopy for the two-seater, too.

However, I came across a single seat with a bubble canopy, the photo showing it to be at what looked an Italian fly-in circa 1938/1939.

Another unusual Klemm I saw, was the WKl35 with a unique enclosed canopy...the only one I have seen so far:





So my guess is, that perhaps someone decided that they liked the "greenhouse" style canopy of the previously mentioned Ju87 or Bf110 and decided to customize that particular Kl35.

What do you guys think?


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## fubar57 (Jun 26, 2016)

Klemm!! Going through Jane's-1938 as we speak to see if I can find more.


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## GrauGeist (Jun 26, 2016)

By the way, Geo...you'll find that the Klemm had two different maingear configurations.

There was the older "spar" type, like in the original photo and then the later type that had a single, dampened strut (with or without spats)

You'll also find that the tail gear was a skid with the spar-style maingear and a tail-wheel usually accompanied the single-strut style gear.


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## Graeme (Jun 26, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> What do you guys think?



I'm still thinking Klemm, Dave. And like Geo, I am now finding references to a canopied version (something I never knew about) - but I find it somewhat unusual there aren't more photos of them on the net?

So, Snautzer has a photo of a _very rare_ canopied version of a Klemm Kl 35? Well done sir!


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## GrauGeist (Jun 26, 2016)

I'm sure it's a Klemm, Graeme, after an exhaustive search, it simply cannot be anything else.

Like I mentioned to Geo, there were two canopied two-seaters available, one being that "sporty" razorback style seen in Geo's post for the land version and the canopied two-seater float version I posted earlier today.

Here's a rare pre-war sport version, called the Kl35 Special, note the bubble canopy:





Here's the Kl35B whith the enclosed two-seat cabin (again, prewar):





To add an interesting note, the Kl106 trainer had the strutted gear and elevator support strut (like the early Bf109 versions) seen here next to a captured Stirling:





I fully agree, that photo with the "greenhouse" canopy is a remarkable find!


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## fubar57 (Jun 26, 2016)

Nice Dave. Never seen that pic of the Stirling before


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## GrauGeist (Jun 26, 2016)

This may be of some interest:
I happened to have a look in my "X-planes" book by Greihl, too see if there may have been some unusual prototypes made by Klemm and there were only two prototypes before production:
V1 (WkNmr 959) D-EHXE, which crashed on 19 July 1935, 5 months after it's flight.
V2 (WkNmr 960) D-ERQA, which first flew in September 1935 and later went on to Rechlin for performance trials.

Both were two-seaters, however, there is a footnote stating that the second one was *"fitted with a glazed cabin section for flight behaviour tests".*

Are you guys thinking what I'm thinking?

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## Graeme (Jun 26, 2016)

Interesting photos Dave and nice detective work! 
So, possibly trialing a cockpit intended for another aircraft?


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## GrauGeist (Jun 26, 2016)

Graeme said:


> Interesting photos Dave and nice detective work!
> So, possibly trialing a cockpit intended for another aircraft?


Thank you, Sir!

They may have been testing for another type or perhaps considering a two-seat trainer in that configuration, as the trainers were only an open cockpit layout.


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## Capt. Vick (Jun 27, 2016)

Great job guys!


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## Graeme (Jul 1, 2016)

I saw this in a book today...






The back wall fascinated me, so I had a closer look - what do you guys think this is?...


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## Snautzer01 (Jul 1, 2016)

Delta Dagger


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## nuuumannn (Jul 1, 2016)

It's a Hawker Hunter...(I think) With its pointed nose it's possibly the High Speed Hunter Mk.3, basically the modified prototype in which Neville Duke attained a world speed record in September 1953. It's a front three quarter view, so its on an angle, which throws the perspective off a little. Below it is what looks like a Javelin and to its right an F-111.


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## Graeme (Jul 1, 2016)

*"Delta Dagger"*

Initially thought that too Snautzer, but then noted the horizontal stabilizer half way up the vertical fin.



nuuumannn said:


> It's a Hawker Hunter...(I think) With its pointed nose it's possibly the High Speed Hunter Mk.3



Thanks Grant. I tossed up the Hunter, but the book image just looked too fat/short to me - but then it is on a pin-board in the distance at an angle.

Cheers!


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