# Wrecks of Dutch warships have disappeared



## Marcel (Nov 15, 2016)

The wrecks the cruisers De Hr.Ms Ruyter and Hr.Ms Java have disappeared from the place where they were found in 2002. Both ships had a major role in the Battle of the Java sea, De Ruyter being the flagship of the fleet, in 1942 and were sunk by the Japanese. The wrecks were found in 2002. Now with the 75th birthday of the battle, divers tried to find them again, only to discover the wrecks were gone. According to the article below the impression of the hulls are clearly visible in the seabed, but the wrecks are gone. It looks like there has been a secret salvation. Can't tell you how shocked I am. These ships were war graves for hundreds of men. Hope the catch the bastards who did this.


See the google translate version of the article:


> Several Dutch naval vessels destroyed during a battle in 1942 in the Java Sea in Indonesia appear on the seafloor to have disappeared.
> 
> 
> It is about the wreck of the cruiser Hr. Ms. De Ruyter and Hr. Ms. Java and part of the destroyer Hr. Ms. Kortenaer, writes Minister Jeanine Hennis Defense Tuesday to the House.
> ...


Nederlandse oorlogswrakken lijken van bodem Javazee verdwenen

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## michaelmaltby (Nov 15, 2016)

... very creepy. Sorry for the violation.


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## tomo pauk (Nov 15, 2016)

This is outrageous.

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## rochie (Nov 15, 2016)

amazing how low people will go

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## Shinpachi (Nov 15, 2016)

Isn't it ocean current ?


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## Marcel (Nov 15, 2016)

Doesn't seem likely. They should have been found in the vicinity then as it's not that deep down there. Dutch government seems to think they are secretly salvaged and sold.


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## Shinpachi (Nov 15, 2016)

Agreed.


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 15, 2016)

if _currents_ had shifted the wrecks, or geological activity, either would have disturbed the hull impressions on the bottom ... but these are still intact


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## bobbysocks (Nov 15, 2016)

michaelmaltby said:


> if _currents_ had shifted the wrecks, or geological activity, either would have disturbed the hull impressions on the bottom ... but these are still intact



yeah..i agree. I have seen storms break wrecks in half and move them great distances. had they been moved by strong currents then there should be a trail in the seabed showing them moving in a direction OR the impressions should have been wiped out. if the wrecks were salvaged there should also be some marks. I don't think someone is going to lift the entire hull off of the seafloor in one piece. there is a lot of suction holding it in place after all these years. there should be evidence of the hull being cut and sectioned. there should also be slag from cutting torches. then again they are going solely by interpretations of sonar images they need more to investigate this they need ROVs or a sub ( if its shallow enough )


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 15, 2016)

That's just sickening.


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## Gnomey (Nov 15, 2016)

Disgraceful!


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## Crimea_River (Nov 15, 2016)

There's probably more of this sh!t going on than we'd like to know. However, if there was not a thriving market for artifacts then it's possible those wrecks might still be there.

Anyone thinking of buying stuff off e-bay or specialty sites might want to ask themselves where this stuff comes from.


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## Wildcat (Nov 16, 2016)

Unfortunately this is not a new occurrence. 
HMAS Perth grave stripped by salvagers
Note the Dutch submarine...


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## Wayne Little (Nov 16, 2016)

Unbelievable....


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## Bernhart (Nov 16, 2016)

have an uncle went down with one of those ships, listed as missing in action

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## Marcel (Nov 16, 2016)

Crimea_River said:


> There's probably more of this sh!t going on than we'd like to know. However, if there was not a thriving market for artifacts then it's possible those wrecks might still be there.
> 
> Anyone thinking of buying stuff off e-bay or specialty sites might want to ask themselves where this stuff comes from.


That's right. A couple of years ago, parts from a sunken Dutch submarine were sold in Australia. So it is not the first time.
The Dutch authorities really think these wrecks are stolen. I don't think they would say that if they did not have some evidence to back that up. I still cannot imagine how that was pulled off. I mean, Dr Ruyter was 170 meters Long. Not really a small wreck. 
@Bernhardt, which ship was he on?


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## rochie (Nov 16, 2016)

On the BBC website now !

Mystery over Dutch WW2 shipwrecks vanished from Java Sea bed - BBC News

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## Old Wizard (Nov 16, 2016)

Disgusting!


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## Marcel (Nov 16, 2016)

rochie said:


> On the BBC website now !
> 
> Mystery over Dutch WW2 shipwrecks vanished from Java Sea bed - BBC News


So Exeter is also missing. It's not just our ships. Very bad indeed.


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 16, 2016)

The Soviets used the grave of the Wilhelm Gustloff in the Baltic to practice underwater demolition techniques and the wreck has been pillaged repeatedly although it is a declared gravesite. I think there is no decency in this kind of behavior:

MV Wilhelm Gustloff - Wikipedia


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## Airframes (Nov 16, 2016)

I'm lost for words - it's shameful and ing.


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## Capt. Vick (Nov 16, 2016)

How can this thing even be done without someone knowing? I assume it would be quite an undertaking.


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## Thorlifter (Nov 16, 2016)

While this story is sickening, it's also incredible.

How does one just come in and take a 560 foot, 6,600 ton warship and not be noticed?

But also, what are they doing with it? I'm guessing selling the majority as scrap and selling off what they can as souveniers? It's not like they are going to restore it.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 17, 2016)

Time to get out the satellite photos and hunt down these douchebags.

They and any graverobbers should be put down like a rabid dog.


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## Shinpachi (Nov 17, 2016)

If true, we should understand that they were not happy to have the western colonists and aggressive japs there, shouldn't we ?
They may be only cleaning their sacred seabed and recycling the wrecks.
I don't blame them at least even if true.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 17, 2016)

It shouldn't matter, Shinpachi...a gravesite is a gravesite, no matter the origin.

And when a warship (or any vessel for that matter) sinks, it becomes part of the ecosystem much like a reef, offering both a sanctuary and a source of food, for the sea life.

There are a few exceptions for raising a vessel, like the Confederate submarine Hunley, because of it's historical significance - and the Confederate sailors that were found aboard were given full military honors with their burial.

The remains of the sailors on those stolen ships got nothing...


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## Shinpachi (Nov 17, 2016)

In case of about 300,000 Japanese remains in the Pacific area which cannot be recovered from the seabed, Japanese government asks local governments protection of the graveyards with financial aid. Nothing is free of charge in the countries of heathens. Guarantee their lives and no problem.

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## Thorlifter (Nov 17, 2016)

Isn't it strange how money changes things! 

Shinpachi, as far as you know, has there ever been an issue with Japanese ships or sunken planes being looted or stolen?


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## Shinpachi (Nov 17, 2016)

Financial aid is necessary when they need it to be more cooperative with us.

There are many sunken Japanese ships in the Philippines but I have never heard of any troubles except a few skulls were damaged by local divers decades ago. They use the wrecks as tourist attractions to gain more money. No problem for us as long as the wrecks and remains are intact.

More than 3,500 ships were sunken.

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## Marcel (Nov 17, 2016)

Shinpachi said:


> If true, we should understand that they were not happy to have the western colonists and aggressive japs there, shouldn't we ?
> They may be only cleaning their sacred seabed and recycling the wrecks.
> I don't blame them at least even if true.


That's true, but they could have just said so and we could have talked about it and even help to do it in a respectful manner. Actually I think this was done to gain profit by a rich criminal group. In that case, this is totally wrong.


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## Shinpachi (Nov 17, 2016)

It's not an easy job for anyone, rich or poor, to steal 3 warships away without being noticed.
In my impression, you had better doubt the tsunami in 2004 first to search for them again.

Indonesia tsunami in 2004

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## rank amateur (Nov 17, 2016)

I rather dislike the word "salvaged" in this matter. I fear these ships were not salvaged in any form, they were pillaged. I fear they were ruthlessly torn apart for the scrapmetal. Funny enough even the experts do not know how it must have been done. The Javasea is not really deep with 70 meter but you still need a lot of equipment and men to get this done. It hardly seems worth the effort.

By the way, in the 75 years since the sinking, it is not likely much has remained of the casualties.


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## Shinpachi (Nov 19, 2016)

This is how things go when no firm evidences to blame.
Warship Lost in the Java Sea, Indonesia Rejects Accusations Netherlands (through Google Translation)

I recommend Dutch government to consult with Japanese government for help as there used to be such an agreement like this -
"
[Title] Treaty of Peace with Japan
[Place] San Francisco
[Date] September 8, 1951 
Article 14

1. Japan will promptly enter into negotiations with Allied Powers so desiring, whose present territories were occupied by Japanese forces and damaged by Japan, with a view to assisting to compensate those countries for the cost of repairing the damage done, by making available the services of the Japanese people in production, salvaging and other work for the Allied Powers in question. Such arrangements shall avoid the imposition of additional liabilities on other Allied Powers, and, where the manufacturing of raw materials is called for, they shall be supplied by the Allied Powers in question, so as not to throw any foreign exchange burden upon Japan."

I think this has been expired but they would listen as Dutch is no enemy any more.

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## Marcel (Nov 20, 2016)

Indonesia already promised their help trying to find out what happened to the ships.
But this message is not really honest as foran operation like this, you would not have to patrol the area to notice. Getting those big ships from 70 Metres involved quite a lot of equipment.
Tsunami also doesn't seem likely as the seabed should have been disturbed which doesn't seem to be the case.


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## Shinpachi (Nov 20, 2016)

That would be your own job to find them out as they seem thinking that the graves should be on the land, not in the water.


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## Marcel (Nov 20, 2016)

Don't worry, we will.


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## Micdrow (Nov 20, 2016)

Actually if you read around the area they have found a US sub and a few British ships as well missing parts and pieces as well from scrappers


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## Marcel (Nov 20, 2016)

Shinpachi said:


> That would be your own job to find them out as they seem thinking that the graves should be on the land, not in the water.


But Shinpachi, I think the article you posted is more a media making more than it is than a real article. The Dutch government asked and were promised cooperation from the Indonesian government. I've not heard about the Dutch government blaming the Indonesian government for anything.

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## Shinpachi (Nov 20, 2016)

Indonesia is being swamped with the disputed islands with China like other Asian countries now.
If no troubles between Dutch and Indonesia, that's better for us.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 20, 2016)

I just don't get how this happened without anyone noticing.

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## stona (Nov 20, 2016)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I just don't get how this happened without anyone noticing.



Knowing or caring?

That is the rather unpalatable question.

Cheers

Steve

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## parsifal (Nov 20, 2016)

I would like to think it was a navigational error in the original fix , but unlikely.


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## rank amateur (Nov 21, 2016)

My sentiment exactly but I assume the people that did take notice, were paid off. Wages in the Indonesian service being too modest to avoid a bit of corruption.


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## nuuumannn (Nov 21, 2016)

Very sad. Vandals.



> Australian authorities have tried to keep the scandal a secret, fearing the issue might add fuel to the ongoing diplomatic tensions between Australia and Indonesia.



This is rather sickening, the fact that politicians have deliberately deceived the public about this matter. It's no wonder Trump got in.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 21, 2016)

Shinpachi did bring up a good point about the Christmas Tsunami of '04.

The forces generated by that event were tremendous and not only very capable of moving shipwrecks a great distance, but also scouring the seabed of any traces, too.

Perhaps they should evaluate the Tsunami's path in that area and then look downrange.

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## Marcel (Nov 22, 2016)

Would a tsunami sweep away a 10000 tons ship and leave the sea bed undisturbed? The imprints of the ships are still there. Seems highly unlikely. Also, a part is missing of destroyer Kortenaer. I don't think a tsunami would break off certain parts of a small ship while totally removing the larger ships. And last evidence which is decisive: The ships were still there in 2010 as that was the last time a Dutch group dived to the wreckage.


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## Shinpachi (Nov 22, 2016)

Java war memorial in 2014.
This Indonesian commander does not look happy to be there as Indonesian navy has nothing to do with the battle.
The wrecks are nothing but bothersome legacy for Indonesians. They could be happy if truly disappeared.
Just my opinion.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 22, 2016)

I thought that the last time they had been seen was in 2002, that's why I considered the Tsunami as a possibility.

In regards to a Tsunami moving 10,000 tons...it is possible, especially one of the magnitude of the 2004 event. The Krakatoa Tsunami uprooted a 600 ton piece of coral reef and carried it a considerable distance onshore while at the same time, hurled a Steamship (Berouw) well over a mile inland, depositing it up in a valley 32 feet (10m) above sea level.

But it appears that the Tsunami idea is ruled out and that some corrupt douchebags in the Indonesian government have some explaining to do...


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## Thorlifter (Nov 22, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> But it appears that the Tsunami idea is ruled out and that some corrupt douchebags in the Indonesian government have some explaining to do...



.....but probably wont.

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## Marcel (Nov 22, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> I thought that the last time they had been seen was in 2002, that's why I considered the Tsunami as a possibility.
> 
> In regards to a Tsunami moving 10,000 tons...it is possible, especially one of the magnitude of the 2004 event. The Krakatoa Tsunami uprooted a 600 ton piece of coral reef and carried it a considerable distance onshore while at the same time, hurled a Steamship (Berouw) well over a mile inland, depositing it up in a valley 32 feet (10m) above sea level.
> 
> But it appears that the Tsunami idea is ruled out and that some corrupt douchebags in the Indonesian government have some explaining to do...


I do believe the tsunami can shift a 10000 ton ship, but can't believe it is picky and leave the smaller ships while taking the bigger ones.

I don't know about that last part. I think it is too early for accusations and also I believe that is too dangerous.


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## Thorlifter (Nov 22, 2016)

But finger pointing and assumptions is how this stupid world works now!

Seriously though, I believe the evidence leans heavily towards theft.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 22, 2016)

I am just baffled at how something like this can just slip under the nose of authorities otherwise.

Even along the remote border of Bulgaria, where the buried panzers were, a group of guys tried to steal a buried Tiger and got caught.

This is infinitely larger than a tank...someone had to see something, it's just not going to vanish overnight.

Perhaps my original suggestion holds - go over archived satellite photos of the region and see.


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## Marcel (Nov 22, 2016)

Thorlifter said:


> But finger pointing and assumptions is how this stupid world works now!
> 
> Seriously though, I believe the evidence leans heavily towards theft.


Yes of course. That is the general opinion here. And we also have witness accounts of the ships being transferred, but I don't know how reliable these witnesses are. But who did it and who is to blame for what is still way too early and I agree with Simpachi that we should be careful with that. What we need is cooperation and we won't get that when we start accusing everybody.

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## GrauGeist (Nov 22, 2016)

I just did a little deeper reading on the subject and have found that this situation is more advanced than it seemed at first look.

Here is a list of the shipwrecks involved:
HNLMS De Ruyter
HNLMS Java
HNLMS Kortenaer
HNLMS 0-16
HMS Exeter
HMS Encounter
HMS Repulse
HMS Prince of Wales
USS Houston
USS Perch
Add to this list, several Imperial Japanese vessels, too.


There has been sightings of a Mongolian flagged salvage barge operating in the area for a while, according to eyewitnesses.

Here's an article about the HMS Perth being plundered along with a photo of an illegal barge with the Dutch submarine scrap aboard: HMAS Perth grave stripped by salvagers

And it's not just WWII war graves being illegally plundered: Illegal Salvage Ship Ruins Iconic Singapore Wreck Dive


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## Marcel (Nov 22, 2016)

So is the prince of wales also removed? That is really a big operation.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 22, 2016)

Seems like it, Marcel

Also, the USS Perch (SS 176) has completely vanished.

Unlike many of the other wreck sites, the Perch wasn't a war grave. She was scuttled (3 March 1942) after receiving considerable depth-charge damage by IJN Destroyers (Amatsukaze and Hatsukaze), her entire crew was captured and all but 5 perished in Japanese prison camps during the war.


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## Shinpachi (Nov 22, 2016)

The entire crew was captured by the Japanese destroyer Ushio. Of the fifty-four men and five officers, all but five — who died of malnutrition in Japanese prisoner-of-war camps — were able to return to the United States after V-J Day. Wiki: USS Perch (SS-176)


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## Marcel (Nov 22, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> Seems like it, Marcel
> 
> Also, the USS Perch (SS 176) has completely vanished.
> 
> Unlike many of the other wreck sites, the Perch wasn't a war grave. She was scuttled (3 March 1942) after receiving considerable depth-charge damage by IJN Destroyers (Amatsukaze and Hatsukaze), her entire crew was captured and all but 5 perished in Japanese prison camps during the war.


As I read it, the wrecks of Repulse and Prince of Wales have been stripped. The ships themselves have not been removed like what happened to the De Ruyter and the rest. But it shows that these things do happen.


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## Gnomey (Nov 22, 2016)

To physically remove the PoW and Repulse would be a serious job that surely couldn't of gone unnoticed by someone...


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## parsifal (Nov 22, 2016)

Remember that the Indonesian independence movement sided with the Japanese during and immediately after the war. They were not anti west, but neither do they have much allegiance or sympathy to our sensibilities.

They will happily send to the firing squad a white man or a man of chiese descent, even if tht man has a demonstrated rehabilitation going on, but will not lift a finger against the spiritual leader of the Bali bombing ring. This is a soft version of the blowing up of world heritage sites by the Taliban or ISIL . They love to make us uncomfortable.

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## Thorlifter (Nov 23, 2016)

This is just dis-gusting. @#%#ing thieves. Almost as bad as pirates.


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## Marcel (Nov 23, 2016)

parsifal said:


> Remember that the Indonesian independence movement sided with the Japanese during and immediately after the war. They were not anti west, but neither do they have much allegiance or sympathy to our sensibilities.
> 
> They will happily send to the firing squad a white man or a man of chiese descent, even if tht man has a demonstrated rehabilitation going on, but will not lift a finger against the spiritual leader of the Bali bombing ring. This is a soft version of the blowing up of world heritage sites by the Taliban or ISIL . They love to make us uncomfortable.


Of course and with our colonial history with Indonesia, I fully understand that the Dutch are not very popular there. Especially the navy being one of the major instruments to keep the Dutch on top back in the day. Still I hoped for some human decency.

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