# SturmFw's



## Erich (Jun 15, 2005)

working with artist Randy Wright at present for his web-site filling him in on the German attack which took out 30 B-24's of the 445th bomb group near Kassel on 27 September 1944.

it was a slaughter, with 118 US crewsmen KIA and 25 German pilots KIA. Only with the help of the "Yellowjackets", 361st fg was the bomb group able to send 4-6 B-24's back home to England with varyuing amounts of damage...


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## evangilder (Jun 15, 2005)

Nice pic, terrible event.


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## Erich (Jun 15, 2005)

closest Fw 190Sturm is white 20 flown by pilot Erich Keller who shot down 1 B-24 and another out of formation. Upper right white 4 ? and lower is probably the Staffelkapitän of 5.Sturm/JG 4 flying Weiße 1-?

5th staffel put in for 14 kills of B-24's alone with 40 being claimed by the whole II.Sturm/JG 4, about 30 too many.

Dr. Hubert Chlond whom passed away a year ago shot down 2. He was flying Weiße 14.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 20, 2005)

Good pic.


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## Udet (Jun 21, 2005)

Erich:

Do you happen to know the total (approximate) number of heavy bombers that were shot down by the three Sturmgruppen during the war?


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## Erich (Jun 21, 2005)

for JG 3 and JG 4 yes. not till the two volumes on JG 300 are published.......I have an idea but the claims are not correct with the actual amount of kills as JG 300 overclaimed. The volumes on the JG 300 unit will correct that. 25-30 years of research have gone into the French and English volumes. The French edition is available now and the English volume 1 is due sometime in July


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 21, 2005)

And come on old friend what are the numbers?


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## Erich (Jun 21, 2005)

Geezo..........

ok for SturmFw's from II.Sturm/JG 4 not counting the days of the original Sturmstaffel 1

JG 4 Sturms : 85 US bombers shot down. I took off 20 that were extra from their claims on 27 September 1944 as they only shot down 10 not 30 as they put in for.

JG 3 Sturms coming up but they will take a bit of time


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## Erich (Jun 21, 2005)

JG 3 Sturms from 7-7-44 till the time in the Ost front.

262 US heavy bombers
30 B-26's on 23.12.1944

JG 4 Sturms first mission was 11.09.1944

JG 300 Sturms first mission was 7-7-44 as a complete Sturm unit but had attacked US heavy bombers even back in June of 44 over the Reich. when I find out through the data base hopefully it will not include RAF 4 engine bombers in the total. I believe and this should not be taken as fact, the JG 300 claimed something like 2,000 plus kills but that is probably true if we count it's first mission in July of 43 over the burning city of Hamburg. As I mentioned the two volumes on the unit will be worth waiting for .....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 21, 2005)

Now these are just the kills for the Sturm FW's correct and not other units kills or other aircraft such as the Bf-109's, Bf-110's....etc.


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## Erich (Jun 21, 2005)

just FW 190-A-8/R2's and R-8 variants along with the standard A-8 that was flown in the units but very few.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 21, 2005)

Okay that is what I thought.


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## Erich (Oct 26, 2005)

from II.Sturm/JG 4 on the first two missions the Sturms took part in. thanks to friend Neil page for the translation. herr Chlond was a kind man, sadly passing away a couple of years ago. 5 kills to his credit.

Uffz Kurt Scherer 6 (Sturm)./JG4 

"...The sky was full of aeroplanes as far as the eye could see. P-51s dived down onto our close formation but our escorts fought them off. We were getting closer and closer to the bomber stream . The first tracers came flying past my ears. From then on everything happened very quickly. Our formation curved down right into the middle of the bomber stream in a textbook ( schulmässig gerissene Kurve ) manoeuvre. We were flying now in the bomber formation with B-17s in front and behind us. The deadly explosive shells from the first attack formation ( Angriffskeil ) of our Sturmmaschinen drilled into the B-17s that were growing ever bigger. I was amazed at the size of these huge machines, far bigger than I had imagined. But the fate of the four engined bomber growing ever bigger in my gunsight would be decided by my 3 cm cannon...." 

Uffz Herbert Chlond 5./JG4 

".. My machine was not serviceable on the 11 September and as our Kommandeur , Obstlt von Kornatzki couldn't fly this mission ( for what reason I do not know ) I flew in his aircraft. Although I didn't know it , his plane was fitted with a gun camera. I shot down a B-17 and this kill was recorded, being filmed from the moment I pressed the firing button up to the point where the B-17's rudder and tail fin broke away . I however knew nothing of this until a couple of days later when the film was replayed ... I can still remember how von Kornatzki ordered us that following our first victories we should have the front of the cowling of our aircraft ( Flugzeugnasen ) painted red to put fear into the enemy crews.." 




The following day, 12 September, saw another all out effort launched by the three Bomber Divisions of the 8th AF. As a result of the previous days action some fifty pilots of II/JG4 had landed back at airfields other than their own and the unit was ill prepared to meet another major incursion. It was to be a black day for II./JG4. von Kornatzki's machine, Fw 190A-8 'grüne 3' was seen to take hits from the B-17 he was attacking and dropping out of formation , he hit power lines whilst attempting a crash landing. The father of the Sturm idea was dead. His was a loss that was keenly felt by the young and inexperienced pilots to whom he had become a father figure ( Ersatzvater ) . The new Gruppenkommandeur was Major Gerhard Schroeder, formerly of KG51.


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## Gnomey (Oct 26, 2005)

Interesting stuff Erich.


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## syscom3 (Oct 26, 2005)

Erich, you mention 30 B-26s were shot down on Dec 23 1944.

Do you have any other information about this? 

Since this was the time of the Battle of the Buldge, did these Sturm units fly support for this offensive, or kept back as a reserve against any 8th AF missions?


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## Erich (Oct 26, 2005)

yes I do and I can tell you the B-26 histoprians are hiding the facts from all of us. Out of any US bomber groups the B-26 ones in the ETO have the smallest of the small when it comes to information released to the public through the Historical archivs or the historians of individual bomb groups upon their own admission; conveniently lost...........

Fw 190's of JG 11 and IV.Sturm/JG 3 took it to them during the heavy aerial battels over the Ardenne.

Both these gruppen were vectored upong the twin engine units the date I covered and inf act for JG 3 they thought they were going after B-17's as a cloud deck seperated them and the US bombers as they were not visible


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## lesofprimus (Oct 26, 2005)

Excellent info...


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## Erich (Oct 26, 2005)

Les, syscom a friend Oskar Bosch was on this particular defence op and it is probably archived as I included a brief of his story. He lost full power nearly and a fuel line was severed by the tail position on one of the B-26's and as his staffel zoomed forward on the attack Oskar's SturmFw slowed down to almost a crawl and the remaining B-26's let go with their .50's riddling his Sturm. he banked away to be pursued by a solo P-47 which then abandoned Oskar as the German pilot let his heavy Sturmbocke drop like a rock to earth and the last moments bailed out. Oskar still has some momentos of this striken Fw in his small collection at home and in interviews with me has mentioned it was another day that God protected him as he should of been killed .....

Oskar and his 14Sturmstaffel with his Schwarze 14 on the left. Oskar is on the right in the sommer Lederjacke. Cica Decvember of 44..... The pic and article front is from friend neil pages Sturm pages in the UK mag SAM several years ago. i supplied the copy of the original photo


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## syscom3 (Oct 26, 2005)

Erich, this is quite interesting about the B26's. Im going to do some investigating about it. Thanks for the heads up!

On another note - Did you ever correspond with a Me262 pilot that lived in Los Angeles in the 70's and 80's? I think he worked for TWA.


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## Erich (Oct 26, 2005)

Syscom good luck and I hope you are more successwful than me. Yes I know a former bomber-fighter Me 262 pilot in your area who actually was wounded on a jet bomber mission during 45, his previous service had been on the Ost front and over England earlier in the war with the Me 410. Sad the guy is a die hard in my opinion


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## Udet (Oct 26, 2005)

Erich:

I recall your comments regarding this particular battle in some other thread in the past.

In the past several of the members unleashed rants on me because of my constant remarks regarding the lies, distortions and manipulations of the allied propaganda -namely of the USA and England- both during and after the war.

What Erich has commented here emerges as sound evidence to prove they have lied, distorted and/or concealed information about episodes when they got gutted by the enemy.

Right, this is just one case, the air battles of December 23, 1944. Many others have been detected as well.

The interesting point is, how many material facts have been knowingly and willfuly concealed, falsified or manipulated in any manner whatsoever that most of us are not still aware of?


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## lesofprimus (Oct 26, 2005)

> The interesting point is, how many material facts have been knowingly and willfuly concealed, falsified or manipulated in any manner whatsoever that most of us are not still aware of?


Alot.... Its no great mystery that kill totals are inflated/not reported...


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## Jabberwocky (Oct 26, 2005)

Udet said:


> Erich:
> 
> I recall your comments regarding this particular battle in some other thread in the past.
> 
> ...




Nah Udet. I think its because you make your own claims about Allied 'lies, distortions and manipulations' while taking similar German claims at face value. I don't have issue with you, just when your apparent "Deutschland uber alles" attitude runs amok. The truth is often far more complex that you seem willing to realise.

The claims during the war and in the immediate post war period all have to be taken with a grain or two of salt, often some very large ones at that. However, there has been some 50 years of serious scholarship put in on the subject, most of which you seem to dismiss because it doesn't agree with your point of view. Case in point your views of the Sealion operation in Sorens 'really what if' thread.


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## Udet (Oct 26, 2005)

Jabber:

(1) If you decide to have issues with me, go ahead, I won´t mind.

(2) I can guarantee you a rough going attempting to prove "I am making my own claims" against the allies.


Now, in view of your comments, it is about prudent to illustrate you how is it that I function here:

Unlike the allied side advocators, when one is attempting to "defend" the view of the defeated side of a war -Germany in this case- he will have to climb his way up from the very bottom of the pit.

A hell of a pit when the defeated is the Germany of World War II.

Believe me, although I consider myself a young creature, I am not a prat to defend what can not be defended.

It´s plentiful of elements here and there to prove you they lie, conceal and distort.

Although the Gold Medal for propaganda services lies in the neck of the soviets, the propaganda of the western kids was also very prolific.


Allied advocators are everywhere, in huge numbers, available to show up and sing the "we had better engines, better cooling systems, better guns, better ammo, better fuselages, better pilots, better tactics, better everything" old song.

Right, the majority of the most frequent posters here in this forum are people who have either read, researched, travelled and met with veterans who were there, making their opinions way more balanced, still I am not here to praise the allied effort for it has been praised for 60 years so far. 

So my point for start is the very bottom of the pit, with solid elements to climb and to eventually emerge to the surface.


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## schwarzpanzer (Oct 27, 2005)

Allied Axis and Soviet kill numbers are usually heavily exaggerated, whether in planes tanks or on foot, so I don't get involved in (lies, damned lies and) figures. Some unbeleivable feats will be actually true though.

However stories, they are interesting.


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## syscom3 (Oct 27, 2005)

I found some information that shows Erich was correct. The 391st and 397th BG's were hammered hard, and I mean HAMMERED HARD!!!! I looked at all the MACR's for this date and sorted the data for B26's and 9th AF. Heres the results.

Unit histories can gloss over loss's, but they cant lie about the MACR's.

"The newly minted Army Air Corps went to the flight surgeon with a complaint. He said, "Doc, I'm constipated all the time, what can I do?" After examination, the Doc said, "I can give you a strong laxative, or assign you to a B-26 outfit!" - hehehehehehehehe

Note - Worldwide, there were 77 total aircraft loss's on this date (only for AAF)

MACR # Date A/C Type Serial # Group Squadron
 11659	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 41-31896	 323	
 11403	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-10757 387	
 11464	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-10759 387	 559
 11465	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 41-31657	 387	
 11482	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95869	 387	 559
 11485	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95838	 391	 574
 11486	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34440	 391	 575
 11551	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95932	 391	 575
 11651	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34309	 391	 574
 11660	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 44-67826	 391	 574
 11661	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-107671 391	 575
 11662	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95825	 391	 573
 11663	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-107747 391	 573
 11664	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95865	 391	 574
 11669	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-107597 391	 574
 11670	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95844	 391	 575
 11671	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95841	 391	 574
 11672	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34361	 391	 574
 11673	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95798	 391	 574
 11674	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 41-35010	 391	 574
 11677	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95818	 391	 574
 11876	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95878	 391	
 11402	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-96061	 394	 584
 10877	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-96309	 397	
 11349	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-96280	 397	
 11483	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-96144	 397	 596
 11487	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-96182	 397	
 11490	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34434	 397	
 11549	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34221	 397	
 11897	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34159	 397	
 11898	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34185	 397	
 11985	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34430	 397	
 11986	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34139	 397	
 13039	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34136	 397


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## lesofprimus (Oct 27, 2005)

Talk about having a bad day...


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## Erich (Oct 27, 2005)

Syscom well you got farther than me I must say with the two twin engine groups. I wrote both the group historians some years back and was given the answer that I mentioned...........the info is lost. "Can I at least get the amount of losses and the squadrons ? " Nope ! was the replies. All I can say is I hope those two guys have retired and someone else with a little more say and gratitude that I was even trying to get the real story correct and not German/US Bullshit.

For December 23, 1944 here is what the Luftwaffe reported:

135 Luftw. A/C destroyed wioth another 64 with 60 % damage or less. 64 German crewmen KIA with 4 POW and 36 wounded; talk about a rough action !

IV.Sturm/JG 3 calimed 35 B-26's and were given credit for 31 of them, and 1 P-47

I./JG 11 also flying the Fw 190A-8 had 18 B-26 claims with 2 P-47 and 2 P-51's.

there is a monstrous hoidge podge of German gruppen that got mixed up and attacked anything that was Allied and of course with the above losses felt the sting of numercial superiority.

I./JG 1 3 P-47
III./JG 1 1 B-17, 1 B-17HSS
I./JG 2 5 B-26 
II./JG 2 1 B-26, 1 P-47
III./JG 2 3 P-47
III./JG 3 3 B-26
I./JG 4 1 Spitfire
III./JG 4 1 P-51
IV./JG 4 3 P-47
II./JG 11 7 B-26, 1 P-47, 1 P-38
III./JG 11 11 P-47 
I./JG 26 3 B-26
II./JG 26 6 Lancasters, 1 Mossie, 1 P-51
II./JG 27 1 B-17HSS
III./JG 27 3 P-47
IV./JG 27 1 P-47, 2 P-51
III./JG 54 2 B-26
IV./JG 54 flying Fw 190A-8's : 2 B-26, 2 P-47
I./JG 77 1 B-26, 1 P-38
III./JG 77 3 P-47

Danny parker in his book "To win the winter sky" hardly says much about this date except the Luftwaffe got pounded...........I personjally think his work is crap though. By the way the high scorers agasint B-26's, I./JG 11 lost 16 Fw's most to Allied escorts and the IV.Sturm/JG 3 lost 8 Sturms, one of them was Oskars

E ~


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## syscom3 (Oct 27, 2005)

Erich, is it possible a few of the B26 loss's were due to flak? Also, did any of the German fighter loss's ultimatley were figured to be due to damage from their own AA?


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## syscom3 (Oct 27, 2005)

Heres a list of all worldwide USAAF aircraft losses on Dec 23rd 1944.

I havent sliced and diced it for 8th and 9th AF loss's only, but it seems, most of the losses are from those units.

MACR #	Date	A/C Type	Serial #	Group	Squadron
 10846	 12/23/1944	 A-20	 44-617	 47	
 11346	 12/23/1944	 B-17	 44-6619	 94	 331
 10934	 12/23/1944	 B-24	 44-49336	 885	
 12257	 12/23/1944	 B-25	 43-4178	 7	
 14626	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95878	 1	
 11590	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34238	 17	
 11591	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95753	 320	
 11659	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 41-31896	 323	
 11464	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-107598 387	 559
 11482	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95869	 387	 559
 11403	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-107577 387	
 11465	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 41-31657	 387	
 11662	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95825	 391	 573
 11663	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-107747 391	 573
 11485	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95838	 391	 574
 11651	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34309	 391	 574
 11660	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 44-67826	 391	 574
 11664	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95865	 391	 574
 11669	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-107597 391	 574
 11671	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95841	 391	 574
 11672	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34361	 391	 574
 11673	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95798	 391	 574
 11674	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 41-35010	 391	 574
 11677	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95818	 391	 574
 11486	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34440	 391	 575
 11551	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95932	 391	 575
 11661	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-107671 391	 575
 11670	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95844	 391	 575
 11876	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-95878	 391	
 11402	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-96061	 394	 584
 11483	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-96144	 397	 596
 10877	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-96309	 397	
 11349	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-96280	 397	
 11487	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 42-96182	 397	
 11490	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34434	 397	
 11549	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34221	 397	
 11897	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34159	 397	
 11898	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34185	 397	
 11985	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34430	 397	
 11986	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34139	 397	
 13039	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34136	 397	
 11404	 12/23/1944	 B-26	 43-34423	 450	
 10695	 12/23/1944	 C-47	 43-48407	 435	 76
 10696	 12/23/1944	 C-47	 43-48938	 435	
 10706	 12/23/1944	 C-47	 43-30731	 435	
 11024	 12/23/1944	 C-47	 42-92087	 438	
 10697	 12/23/1944	 C-47	 42-100870 441	
 11025	 12/23/1944	 C-47	 43-48056	 9	
 11026	 12/23/1944	 C-47	 43-47972	 9	
 11027	 12/23/1944	 C-47	 43-47963	 9	
 11167	 12/23/1944	 F-5	 44-23603	 7	
 11406	 12/23/1944	 F-6	 42-103226 67	
 11420	 12/23/1944	 P-38	 42-62004	 367	 392
 11413	 12/23/1944	 P-38	 42-68081	 474	
 14557	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 42-28827	 350	
 11607	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 42-76267	 358	
 11443	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 42-28815	 36	
 11446	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 42-75860	 36	
 11503	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 42-74735	 36	
 11435	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 42-76437	 362	
 11428	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 42-76482	 368	
 11489	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 44-19916	 368	
 11436	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 44-20263	 373	
 11437	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 42-28425	 373	
 11445	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 42-28411	 373	
 11493	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 42-26942	 373	
 11416	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 44-19748	 406	
 11422	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 42-29214	 406	
 11085	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 44-19767	 56	 62
 11307	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 44-20615	 56	 62
 11306	 12/23/1944	 P-47	 44-19911	 56	 63
 10966	 12/23/1944	 P-51	 44-11117	 23	
 10734	 12/23/1944	 P-51	 44-15144	 332	
 11328	 12/23/1944	 P-51	 44-11689	 357	 362
 11461	 12/23/1944	 P-51	 44-14064	 361	 375
 11072	 12/23/1944	 P-51	 44-14596	 479	 434
 11081	 12/23/1944	 P-51	 44-13643	 55	 343


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## Erich (Oct 27, 2005)

German losses were due to Luftkampf (fighter combat).

Weird but even the 4 engine heavies crews though the Minengeschoss rounds of 2cm and 3cm felt like Flak; no doubt the B-26 crewmen thought the same thing.

December 24, 1944 is another tradgedy which I covered who knows when. this is the operation that was led by ............anyway some of this coverage was to be present on our sturm website some years ago but has not materialized yeet as the association contact failed to write me back/487th US bg.

For once the Luftwaffe managed to get the drop on the Americans. German SturmFw's suddenly pounced on the unprotected box of Heavy bombers as they crossed the Meuse River. Lt. General Castle was in one of the 487th bg B-17's which had an engine malfunction and had fallen out and slightly back of formation, when a gaggle of Fw's suddenly appeared. IV.Sturm/JG 3 spotted the bombers while they were passing Liege Belgiium. The US fighters were not in position (a rarity) to help, so a rear attack developed. 
Immediately 7 B-17's burst into flame and 2 others so badly damaged they struggled to keep formation and a forced landings to destruction.

30 SturmFw's were in the attack and a small group of Sturms broke away in front which did the overall damage. 3 boxes were attacked in the 487th at 22,000 feet via Y-control.
Fw. Wilhelm Hofensitz picked out the outer B-17 on the starboard side of the middle box. Attacking from above with his four cannon, the B-17 went spiraling out of control. On a seceond attack Wihelm's machine was hit by a B-17 70 feet below him, hitting his engine and causing a fire whcih then he bailed out. His wingman Obergefreiter Hubert Hirschfelder was shot down by the tail gunner of the B-17 he was attacking, Hubert also bailing out but the B-17 also going down to the severe heavy Minen rounds.

General Castle's Treble Four was hit broadside as Castle struggled to get back to the rear of a protective box of bombers. he would not jettison the B-17 bomb load, fearing he would kill civilians and or Allied troops. As the B-17 crew parachuted, a SturmFw came in with it's cannon firing, and severed one of the wings at the root, the B-17 went into a high speed spin smashing into the ground at Rotheux Rimieres, Belgiium.

8 SturmFw pilots calimed victories and 2 other B-17's HSS/ shot out of formation. SturmFw losses amounted to 6 with 5 pilots bailing out POW and 1 KIA. Ace Wolfgang Kosse flying an Fw 190A-9 was shot down in combat with a group of Typhoons in the area of Lüttich as well as two other Fw pilots, names unknown.

A German pilots account who shot down two of the B-17's, Karl Kapteina.

Cockpit readiness was ordered at 11.15. The order to scramble came through 15 minutes later. Around thirty of the Gruppes fighters got airborne and climbed away behind the machine of Hptm Weydenhammer, assembling over the field before climbing to an altitude of 7,000 metres. guided by the Y-Führung, we were vectored to meet the incoming 3BD Boeings over the Lüttich sector. No escorting fighters accompanied the Sturmgruppe and there was no forming up into a battle formation. the Gruppe had been up for well over an hour and over Belgiium and thus Allied held territory, when three large boxes of B-17's were sighted. the bombers were themselves still climbing for altitude and were thus not covered by fighters at that time.

I detected a perceptible sense of unease in the formation. My comrades tightened up closer and Hptm Weydenhammer led us in a wide sweep to port, gaining some 300m altitude, bringing the formation around into the attacking position behind the bombers (487th bg survivors say the Sturms attacked from the front, which was not true). We were now some 200m higer and trailing some 800m behind the enemy bomber formation. Our Kommandeur radioed back our ground control....We are attacking now! Throttles wide open, our ships accelerated to draw rapidly within firing range. We had selected the bomber formation flying furthest out wide to the left as our targer. Ott, who was flying the machine nearest to me on my right hand side, was all over the place and, fearful of a collision, I had to keep a very close eye on his manuevers. then I had to draw a bead, in other words, select a targer in the reflecting sight. with my initial salvos i raked the tail-gunners compartment leaving it riddled (more like blown off). Easing my aim onto the wings I hammered away with everything I'd got. In the meantime I'd drawn in so close that debris from the bomber's fin and rudder was flying around my ears. by now flames had erupted from many points on the bomber's upper surfaces'; as it's undercarriage dropped down, the machine tipped over on it's port wing and went down. I didn't have time to see if any of the crew were able to bail out. As the bomber plunged earthwards I saw my comrade Hopfensitz going down, trailing a banner of white smoke.......
After diving 500 metres down under the bombers I shot a glance back up at the formation (pulk) under attack. It now comprised just a confused mass of burning aircraft in their death throes. two or three untouched bombers were attempting to fly evasive manuevers. they also had to be brought down ! with my spirits high, I pulled up the nose of my fighter and with my momentum climbed quickly back to their altitude. I noticed that a 16th staffel machine had also climbed back up and was now closing on one of the bomber's tails. Seeing this, three bomber crew threw themselves clear before the Fw even fired a shot. the entire B-17 soon followed them down as the Fw raked it with fire. I had meanwhile close to within 500m of a new target. three shapes jumped clear. by now the bomber was flying evasive maneuvers and at a range of 200m I pressed the firing button for the 2cm cannon, lossing off short bursts; once I could see hits I opened up with the 3cm cannons, spraying the bombers wings. My fire was frighteningly effective. the netire machine had erupted in flames and seconds later the wing peeled back off at the port outer engine ............

the 487th was heading for Germany when attacked. thanks to friend Neil Page for translating Karl's acct. one day we will get this re-written and placed on the site


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 29, 2005)

Wow great info Erich.

Udet I think the reason people jump on you and the problem is because of they way you come across.


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## lesofprimus (Oct 29, 2005)

Erich, thanks for a great read... We here appreciate u posting up such indepth information... Crews jumping outta aircraft before the Sturm even starts firing... U wanna talk about fear...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 29, 2005)

I agree Les.


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## syscom3 (Oct 29, 2005)

If theres a "blank" spot in what I (and probably others) have is the history of the Luftwaffe against the 9th AF.

As Erich has shown, there were some intense air battles that have not seen much publicity. 

No doubt other encounters (although probably not on a scale like Dec 23rd) occured. And this is also probably true for the Brits and their tactical AF.


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## Erich (Oct 30, 2005)

this is for Les or anyone that is antcipating a purchase of the new Sturmgruppen in the elite units # 20 series.

my comments start with the profiles section and then into some of the captioned photos and please excuse the randomenss of some of the sentancing......

Right now I can say the profiles are just plain terrible. Numerals on all the aircraft of the wrong size.. Spiralschnuazes are wrong. Maxis schwarze 8 does not have a red/yellow spinner it is black/yellow. Blue 13 does not have the white rumpfband with black welle. 
yellow 17 was not W. Ungers mount
Wappenshields on JG 4 Sturms are incorrect.
Gefreiter Wagners Weiße 11 did not have outboard Mk 108's they were 2cm weapons, the white 11 is incorrect.
Salffners white 6 is incorrect and the machine did not have outboard Nk 108's either but 2cm weapons.

guess I should stop here but looking at the photo clarity it is not overly good, every photo I have seen in other books and I have the cine films that the still are taken of. Real quick Walter Loos did not serve in IV.Sturm/JG 3 Sturm Fw unit, he did fly Bf 109G-6 with the Br 21cm rocket launchers in the old IV./JG 3.............phot caption on pg 37. Back a couple of pages for Oskar Bösch, pg. 34 lower left pic of his A-6. Two mechnaics not Oskar are in the pic.
Bottom of page 36 is Moritz, Haase and the SturmFw JG 3 adjutant to Moritz, taken during the summer of 44.
last comment for now, page 49 lower pic is the same as the following page black 8. Weal must have had too much coffee or something as the "blinkers" he calls them are not present on the a/c in either pic. the pics are of the same a/c, he is incorrect.

pg 52 and 53 Maxi's kill, I have the cine film the B-17 is totally wasted from the left side which the pics do not show, 2cm and 3cm fire cause internal explosions with much debris blowing out the left side of the a/c.
page 54 is from 27 September 1944 showing a 445th bg B-24 getting pounded from 2cm and 3cm fire; I have the cine film.

pg 59, Weal does not seem to know which is Dahls a/c. He says black 13 is E.Tichy's and then says it is Dahls blue 13. does not seem familiar with blue 13 in several variations flown by Dahl in Stab./JG 300.
Second pic on that page is black 13 of 11.Sturm/JG 3 and what Weal did not investigate was white 13 sitting right next to black 13 on the left of it. White 13 of course was in 10.Sturm/JG 3 ..............ok enough picking the book apart for tonight, more later ......

E


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## lesofprimus (Oct 30, 2005)

Excellent refrencing erich... Please keep on when ur hands can continue...


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## Erich (Oct 30, 2005)

more ...........

The Oschersleben sequence is off the cine films which I own and are actually running about 5 minutes or more in length. The Staffeln birds have an array of arms, some mg cowling mounts, some outboard Mk 108's and some with outboard 2cm weapons. Even the markings are not quite consistent yet but would be very soon with 10th and 11th staffel spirals being white, 12th staffel being yellow and 2./JG 51's red, and then all 4 staffeln the standard white. Weal in the profiles makes JG 3 Sturms cowling solid black but indeed there is a hint of blue in the black. 
Back to the cine film of the Sturms flying over parked a/c, yes nearly everyone of the Fw's have Scheuklappen installed. Weal makes an impression about one Sturm a/c in particular that has the mg cowling lifted and with no mg 131's. Interesting that this 1 a/c seems to have a white rudder fitted, I cannot see the numeral on the fuselage.

Back to the profile just briefly, yellow 12 Paul Lixfeldts machine the profile is incorrect as the nose ring is not the right colour nor the spinner details, I would rather not make too much comment on JG 300 machines as they will be covered in the Frenchmans second volume unit history.

page 81 upper right corner photo is Black 1 A-7/MK in spring of 1944, fitted with Mk 108 outboard no heavy armor inclusion. The a/c was flown by a Staffelkapitän Fritz Engau within I. gruppe/JG 11. 

page 87 photo of Klaus Richter supposedly of 5th staffel JG 300. Weal says this is red 4. this is the first JG 300 unit with Scheuklappen fitted that I have seen though have seen the photo elsewhere. My conclusion of seeing this offizier in another pic with the tail of this SturmFw and another in the background with those "blinkers" fitteed is that this is not Klaus but a II/JG 4 pilot as the rumpfband in the background photo of the one I mentioned appears to be black white black and not the blue-white-blue and besisdes why would a JG 300 December 44 till wars end be fitted with the canopy armor when JG 300 resisted the installment due to icing problems ? ......... my take on it anyway.

pages 104/105, friend Oskar Bösch on his A-8/R2 in August 44, Weal then says on page 105 this is the same black 14 with 14th staffel kameraden, it is not. December 44 Black 14 a different SturmFw of his. A line up photo that is owned as original from Barry Smith, I have a copy and Neil used this as his wonderful header in the SAM SturmFw article he wrote several years back.

so at this point looking through the photo selection, yes Prien was used, Mombeeks was used Price was used, and the JG 300 materials from German author Bernd Barbas in his old Luftwaffe Aces tomes. Much of the JG 300 items shown on B.O.'s JG 300 web-site and am sure all will be in the second volume of JG 300 produced soon, several already are in the first volume. Also of note is the useage of Bethkes JG 300 work, so this maybe the base of the JG 300 photos .... ?

more coming....... the comment on the text


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## Gnomey (Oct 30, 2005)

Nice information Erich. Keep it coming.


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## Erich (Oct 30, 2005)

guys quickly as my hands are fading real fast, this is the pic that is used in the osprey book on at least two occassions, also used in Neil's fine work:

Scale Aircraft Modelling vol. 23, number 1, March 2001.

pick up a copy and I will add some comments about some of the changes we did....later. I included several photos with one in colour for Neil


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## Erich (Oct 30, 2005)

well gents I just "blew" through my borrowed copy of Ospreys attempt at the Sturmgruppen. My suggestion is save your monies for one of the more expensive illustrated histories. the only thing worth two cents is the photo content. Not one first person accounts and it is copied from mission reports which are not correct, many times for missions listed all it is is how many a/c and pilots the Sturmgruppen lost and nothing on victories or even the bomb group they came up against, the closing chapter is worthless muck describing pages 118-123 from Sturm to Ramm which is totally not within the scope of a Sturmgruppen work. From a scale of 1-10 I would give this a 2 minus, not to be seen on my bookshelves.

E


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## lesofprimus (Oct 31, 2005)

Ouch... Not a favorable endorsement then, huh erich???


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## evangilder (Oct 31, 2005)

Another Osprey book that is good to even out the rocking table.


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## Erich (Oct 31, 2005)

leave the book on the book racks at the bookstore............

Neil and I discussed bringing back our Sturm materials on the site ASAP and also a rewrite of my review of the Osprey book as well as a model done by a cahp covering blue 13, Walter Dahl


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## syscom3 (Oct 31, 2005)

Erich, you should be writting your own book about the Sturm Groups.

You have a lot of excellent information, and a good grasp on the materials.


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## Erich (Oct 31, 2005)

Syscom funny that you mentioned this as back in 2000 Neil and I were approached by Classic Publications out of England to do just that ......

although we definately considered that; but now that JG 3, 4 and 300 SturmFw a/c and ops, crews have been written we are desiring just a tad bit more personal touches with the US side of things and to compare with the German accounts. Still a much unknown aspect of the WW 2 airwar a facet that is definately to be needed as there are still so many gaps of "what really happened"


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## Erich (Oct 31, 2005)

Gents you may now read an update on 7-7-44, etc on our web-site about midway down look for Oschersleben (updated). and since the holdiay season is right here and now there is a good chance I will send Neil some of the info back to him that has been lost in cyberspace covering the December 23, 24th missions, etc .........


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## lesofprimus (Oct 31, 2005)

Excellent erich....


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## evangilder (Nov 1, 2005)

Outstanding!


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## Erich (Nov 1, 2005)

thought I would throw in an older image this A-8/R8 of Bake in IV.Sturm/Jg 3 at the time of the hideous Ardenne aerial battles


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## lesofprimus (Nov 1, 2005)

Hmmm, is that a shadow on the cowling, or is that a painted band????


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## Erich (Nov 2, 2005)

shadow from the trees and of course the obnoxious leaking of motor oil on the Züsatztank


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## Erich (Nov 4, 2005)

from our old webiste.........

The following account of a Sturm attack was written by Oblt Hans-Martin Markhoff, Staffelkapitän of 8./JG 4 in September 1944 and describes an attack on B-24s of the 445th BG over Kassel on 27 September 1944. My thanks to Jean-Yves Lorant for access to Markhoff's letters written in the late 1970's. By the time Markhoff volunteered for home defense duties during mid-1944 he was an experienced fighter pilot, having flown many sorties on the Russian Front as wingman to one of JG 52's greatest aces, Günther Rall. Charged with screening the Kommandeur of III./JG 52, Markhoff's chances of achieving victories in aerial combat were few and having witnessed a bombardment of Berlin while on leave in late 1943 he decided that his duty lay in defending his fellow citizens back home in Germany. He volunteered to be a Sturm (assault) pilot. Post war he trained as an architect but never told his family of his war record. It wasn't until the late 70's, just a few years before his death, that he told his teenage son about his career in the Jagdwaffe. Like his son, Markhoff himself wore his hair long and was a big fan of the Rolling Stones. One of his final letters contained a poignant footnote; " If you publish these accounts please convey to the reader that such events must never again be allowed to take place. I'm not proud of my successes and what I did during the war. We all of us merely reacted to the pressures of those times. Today I wish that they'd never occurred.." Translation copyright Neil Page. 

"..We closed on the four engined bombers with total disregard for the stiff defensive fire they were putting up.. Tracer was flying around our ears but there was only one thought in my mind ..I must shoot down another heavy bomber..the bomber's defensive fire was broken through recklessly..only after the four engines filled the target circle of the sight did we open fire.." 
A Fw 190 Sturmbock bores in on a B-24 Liberator from the rear. Hunkered down in his cockpit the pilot opens fire from 100 metres aiming for the inboard engine. In this sequence the 190 has approached from slightly above on the starboard side

" When we made our final attack we approached from slightly above , then dove and opened fire ..A miss of the giant monster was almost impossible at this distance. I could clearly recognise the faces of the gunners in their firing positions..." 
Hits from the 30 mm cannon flare..

"...As usual the 3 cm cannon were remarkably effective and wrought terrible destruction. Everything happened so quickly, my shells pumped into the bomber's wing-root and I could see a bright sheet of flame as it leapt from the huge fuselage.." 
The 3cm explosive rounds continue to strike home; the awesome destruction accounts for the tail gunner... 


Breaking off just in time to avoid colliding with the target Markhoff flies through a hail of fragments 
"..pieces of debris were whirling around my ears in the slipstream. Part of the bomber's tail fin came away. I took avoiding action and dove under the huge machine.."


With less than two seconds to unleash a salvo of explosive rounds, the Fw 190 peels away, diving down under the looming bulk of the bomber. The bomber's starboard wing is envelopped in a huge ball of fire and smoke. 

" We flashed through the formation all guns blazing..emerging from the bomber stream we attempted to reform for a second pass but today, as more often than not, this was impossible..we could hear the cries in the earphones alerting us to the presence of enemy fighters..it was then every man for himself as we attempted to reach an aerodrome and put down. That day as I came in to Salzwedel I realized that I'd got problems with my landing gear and elected to put the machine down on its belly. Those machines from my Gruppe that had landed ahead of me were almost all displaying signs of damage.. 


" ... . I had my victory and as it later turned out some wonderful shots on the gun camera. I'd got to within 18 metres of the bomber. Needless to say this film was to appear on the Wochenschau in German cinemas.. .but more than half our Fw 190s were missing.. 7. Staffel was particularly hard hit. Having already been reinforced with 6. and 8. Staffel pilots, the Staffel now lost its Kapitän, Oblt. Zehart who was reported missing near Braunschweig.." 



The Fw 190A-3, an example of which was captured and investigated in the UK in June 1942, was armed with two MG 17 7.92mm machine-guns under the engine cowling, two MG 151/20 20mm cannon in the wing roots, and two MG-FF/M 20mm cannon in the outer wing panels. The pilot could control this armament in two ways. A selection switch on the stick allowed him to select (i) MG 17s and MG 151/20s; (ii) MG-FF/Ms; or (iii) all guns. Alternatively, the pilot could control the guns with the armament control panel, which had a prominent position on the left side of his instrument panel. For each pair of guns, this had a switch, below the ammunition counters, that allowed him to (de)select them. So the synchronized, high rate-of-fire, high muzzle-velocity weapons were installed inboard, and the unsynchronized low rate-of-fire, low muzzle-velocity MG-FF/Ms outboard. The cannon had the smallest ammunition supply which meant that they had to be controlled separately. This was especially important as newer weapons were introduced. 

When early in 1944 the urgent necessity of close range attacks on the massed fleets of USAAF bombers became obvious, current Focke Wulf 190 models had their 20mm wing-mounted cannon replaced by Mk108 30mm cannon supplied with explosive rounds. 

The MK 108 was developed during the early 1940s by RHEINMETALL-BORSIG. It was the standard 30 mm cannon in German fighters from about 1942 until 1945. It was a weapon of brilliant design made from lower quality easily assembled metal stampings with machined steel barrels. It featured electrical ignition and was operated electrically / pneumatically. Weight of projectile was 330 g, total weight 480 g. The weight of the gun was 58 kg and it's length 1057 mm. The most effective ammunition was the Minengranate (mine shell), a heavy shell filled with high explosive, combining a minimum thickness of shell casing with maximum explosive content. Their incendiary effects could easily start a fire on contact with the aluminium of a four-engined bomber. Just 3 to 4 shells placed at the in-board engine and wing root would be enough to destroy a Viermot. The Sturmbock 190 carried just 55 rounds of this lethal ammunition per 30 mm Mk 108 for barely five seconds firing. Ammunition could not be wasted in wild shooting from long range. Ammunition belt malfunction under high G-forces was a problem. The wing mounted cannon were heavy and there was little room in the wing for ammunition ( only 55 rounds/gun sufficient for barely 5 seconds firing ). More importantly for the Sturmgruppe pilots the weight of the cannon in the wings adversely affected the manoeuvrability of the Focke Wulf 190, making the aircraft quite unsuitable for fighter v fighter combat. The low velocity and slower rate of fire resulted in a characteristic sound. It became the "pneumatic hammer".


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 4, 2005)

Interesting. Thanks for that.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 4, 2005)

Excellent....


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## Gnomey (Nov 4, 2005)

Excellent post Erich, good info.


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## Erich (Nov 5, 2005)

a first person account by former bomb navigator onboard one of the 445th bg B-24's on 27 Sept. 44. A gripping account, take time to read and ponder. One note; as Bob says the fighters lined up in front of us. NO they lined up from the rear and attacked by staffel strength .....

by Robert T. Tims
Navigator - WWII

I awakened, a flashlight shining in my eyes and someone shaking me. "Wake up, sir! You're flying today. Briefing at three o'clock---it's 0215 now. Fresh eggs for breakfast!"

I mumbled a thanks. I knew it was Sgt. Kelly from the squadron; he was always kind enough to palliate the dread of rising in the cold and facing a mission by cheering us with the news of fresh eggs. He had turned to the opposite bunks to shake French and Cockran. They were already awake.

"What's the bomb load, Sarge?" was French's first question. "I'm not sure, Sir, but probably 500-pound demos," he answered, while he checked us off his list.

"How much gas we carrying?" Cochran asked while he squinted and adjusted his eyes to the light.

"I believe it's 2500".

Sgt. Kelly left through our back door, after calling out the briefing time again. I could hear the top bunk groaning under Cochran's short but stout frame. He and French were dressing under the blankets, as was their custom, while I was almost succumbing to the temptation to go back to sleep. The bed seduced me with its warmth when I thought of the cold hut. Then suddenly I remembered that this mission was to be an "occasion".

"Well, boys, how does it feel to have just one mission between you and the states?" I called over to my pilot and co-pilot.

"Jees-sus Christ, Tims", Doc Cochran began his Missouri drawl, "do you have to mention that now? I'm already feeling like a cow about to have her first calf." His words escaped between shivers.

"Are you shivering from cold or fear----or both, Doc?" French chided him.

"Well, French I'll just be dammed if I know, now. When we're flying, the flak makes me shake; and when we're not, the English weather makes me shake. You just can't win."

"You've did it, Yank" I told him. My mind was not warm enough to offer any other remark then that hackneyed English expression of resignation.

Our banter had awakened some of our eleven hut-mates, and was drawing a few pointed remarks from them.

"How much longer is it going to take you guys to dress?"

"As soon as I powder my nose," I answered.

"Oh, go to hell!"

"Now wouldn't you feel bad if we didn't come back from the last mission," Cochran admonished with a hurt tone. "You'd never forget those last cruel words."

"God help the Jerries if they ever capture you guys." Bedsprings were creaking in irritation and defiance.

After delaying our departure so that we could relish this customary early - morning pleasantry, we finally switched off the light and stumbled into the English blackout. Someone called, "Good Luck, fellows. See you this afternoon."

We spoke a few words as we walked to the mess hall. French and Cochran were thinking about the future, and searching for a vision of themselves drinking and celebrating that night at the club. They had seen others do it. Why not they too? Lampe and his crew just a week ago. My own thoughts were not so hopeful or trembling so on edge; mine were unsavory and shadowy with bitterness. If I had not been in the hospital, I should be finishing my tour today too. Time and distance between me and Elena were infinite.

When we entered the mess hall, we were warmed with the homelike-smell of hot coffee and fried eggs, heartened by the sight and sound of men at breakfast. How much sharpened were these familiar sensations when framed against the dark prospect of bombers, sub-zero temperatures, and the cold hostility of the air over Germany!

We got in line. Cochran was rubbing his hands together exclaiming, "This is real service. The last mission and fresh eggs for breakfast!"

Many of the men flying on the mission were already seated and eating their breakfast. Some were laughing, some were talking, and some were just eating. Some were old faces and some were new faces. These airmen presented a variety of dress that would satisfy the wildest romantic conception of life in the air corps. As the three of us were looking for a table, we saw McGregor waving to us from the far left of the mess hall. We walked over to sit with him. We had known him well for many months, since phase-training in Boise, Idaho. Most of his crew had finished their mission already, and I knew Mac was close to the end of his tour.

"How many will this make for you, Mac?" I asked him.

"This is it, this is the last one!" He beamed like a small boy at Christmas time. "Isn't this the last one for you two?" He nodded to French and Cochran.

"Yep, the last----one way or another," French answered with a subtle taunt at Fate.

"This is the third time I've sweated out this last one." said Mac with a grimace. "If this one's scrubbed, I'll resign, so help me God! I can stand anything----Big B, the Tempelhof Airdrome----just so I fly this morning."

"Now Goddam it, Mac, you're asking for something," Cochran interrupted with his humorously simulated whine. "I've already arranged it with Jimmy (Doolittle) to have a nice short, quiet mission to Southern France. No flak, no fighters. Now don't go mentioning them awful places like Bremen, Politz, and Big B. Now Goddammit Mac, you're all beside yourself."

Doc Cochran was always able to convert tenseness to ease with his wholesome Falstaffian wit. It was a habit for Doc and me, on each mission, to make the visage of war less appalling for ourselves by and exchange of casual joking on the interphone. The whole crew was indeed fortunate in having a co-pilot like him to keep our tempers and nerves even.

"There's Major McCoy eating breakfast. He must be leading the squadron today," French was saying.

"Yeh, I think we're leading the whole division in today," Mac informed us.

"Major Mac's been a good man to have as squadron C.O.," French said reflectively. "I remember how he used to make sure we were tucked in the middle of the formation on our first few missions---- to give us a chance to grow old."

"Say Tims, not changing the subject," Mac interrupted, "what's this I hear about you wanting to go to Big B. at least once before you finish?"

"Sure, Mac, I've got to go to the big city once, or I'll feel like I haven't had a complete tour."

"The man's crazy! Weren't you satisfied when you almost got your head knocked off by flak over Politz? I heard about that!"

"Why that flak-happy sonuvabitch is never satisfied, Mac," drawled Cochran, motioning to me in mock contempt. "Instead of getting down on his knees and thanking the Good Lord we aborted that last mission to Berlin, he still moans because we didn't go. Even when the boys got back and we found out the other two ships in our element were shot down, the sad sonuvabitch still moaned."

"Well, just wait till he starts on those last five." Mac wagged his finger at me." He'll wish to God he could make all of 'em to Piccadilly."

"Son, that last one is really rough, believe me!" Mac was shaking his head with sad wisdom. We could not help laughing, so ludicrous was Mac in his dismay at having to "sweat out" the last one so many times.

"Hey, we've only got five minutes before briefing, guys," French suddenly exclaimed. We arose from the table hurriedly, grabbin' hats and jackets, and stuffing oranges in our pockets for future nervous nourishment. We mingled with the rest of the crowd going out and spoke several good mornings with a few more friendly baths. These greetings gave us an important human alliance to carry with us to the planes.

Thus the prelude to war, breakfast and fraternity, has been ended. From this moment on history loses these men their identity, for each one will become part of a crew, which is part of a squadron, which is part of a group, which is part of a wing, which is part of a division, which is part of the 8th Air Force, which will bomb Germany today.

As we walked toward the briefing-room near the flight line, we caught the full throb of engines being warmed-up by ground crews. Some were droning steadily and powerfully; others were playing the scale of their strength, now lightly, now thunderingly. The sound was ugly. It was the sound of death. It was the sound of man's distinct genius turned toward destruction. The very immensity of this aerial war against Germany, day after day, dwarfed us who flew. A thousand lines of effort and preparation and strategy had converged, and we were the sharp point of this weapon that stabbed at the heart of Germany. We were the result of many men working the night through in many branches of the Air Force--Command, Intelligence, Maintenance, Supply, Meteorology, and countless others. All this was in the sound of the engines warming up on the morning fields of England.

The first question in the mind of each airman, as he entered the briefing-room was the target for today. It was especially important to those like French, Cochran, and Mac, who were flying their last mission. The big map at the front of the room was always covered until the intelligence officer officially began the briefing. The room was alive with talking and joking. Flimsies and instruction sheets were being passed out, and roll of attendance was being checked by squadron commanders.

I watched the gum-chewing fliers and wondered if some of them would not return to England this day. Most of them can remember the sight of burning and exploding planes, I thought, and yet each one believes in his own insignificant destiny as able to preclude death. I do. Back of these men and across the seas too, are waiting their families. Perhaps they realize more than the men how the news of death can strike with its intolerable wave of nausea and leave the white face of anguish. Those families know it can happen.

"You're target for today, gentlemen, is Kassel, Germany." The S-2 Captain opened briefing with this announcement, and now waited for comments to subside. He had uncovered the big map with its lines of string revealing the route and the target at Kassel in Western Germany.

"Well, it could be worst," I remarked to Cochran and French.

"Yeh, but it could be easier, too!" Doc retorted. We stopped talking to hear the Captain as he continued.

"It's not necessary to say much about this target, since most of you were on the mission that bombed this same place a few days ago. As you know, it's a tank factory on the edge of the city."

I had been on that previous mission to Kassel, so my thoughts began to wander. Premonition is not as penetrating now as it is when we sit and think and anticipate in our huts between missions. In the immediateness of action, attention is thankfully turned to the particulars of duty, and the knife-edge of omen is dulled.

"You'll turn south to keep away from the flak at Munster, and drive in between Hamm and the edge of the flak in Happy Valley (The Ruhr)." "There are probably twenty to thirty guns at Kassel, but you should not be in range for all of them."

Fear is pushed into the background by each one of us. It is this direction of attention that allows us to perform well in combat and to respond to habits made in training.

"There are fighters based around Brunswick to the northeast of your target and near Gotha to the southeast of you. You'll have good fighter support, however, P-51s will escort you in from the Zuider Zee; P-47s will furnish cover at the target; and P-38s and P-51s will take you out again."

"I'd hate to meet the Luftwaffe on your last mission," I unkindly whispered to Doc. He groaned.

"The 700th with Major McCoy will lead the group today, and the group is leading the entire 2nd division. In fact, you'll be the first group in the 8th Air Force; the two 17 divisions will go in behind you to bomb other targets in that vicinity."

Some men even hold their thoughts of combat so deep in the sub-conscious that they actually have little conscious fear. It is a good psychical device to lessen the strain.

"If the target is to be visual, the code word at the I.P. will be 'Hambone'; if PFF, it will be 'Pea Soup'. The code word for the discharge of chaff is 'Lazy Bones'." The operations officer was talking now.

If a man is fool enough to ponder on the elaborate chain of causes that now places him in this position fraught with danger---well, he'll soon be a madman caught in a warp of reason and duty. I directed my attention back to the front of the room, for the meteorology captain was briefing us on weather.

"The coverage will be 8 to 10/10 over England while you're forming---tops at about 11,000 feet. It should taper off to 6/10 at the target with tops around 9,000 feet. You may have a visual run, but probably not."

"Well, this is the last time you'll hear Metro Moa," I said to French and Cochran.

"I ain't exactly unhappy about it." Doc answered.

The operations officer was calling for attention. "All right, here's a hack. Coming up on 3:51 in ten seconds ...55-6-7-8-9-hack!" Main briefing was done.

An hour later I left navigation briefing and met the rest of the crew in the dressing-room. Of our six original gunners we had only one still flying with us, Greenly. Greenly flew the nose turret; and although he didn't know it, he was on his last mission also. Jacobs was an experienced engineer, and Fiske was one of the best radio-operators in the squadron, the latter finishing his tour today. Huddleston and Corman were our waist-gunners, both of them past half-way point on their tours of duty. Schwartz, though not an original crew member had flown as our tail-gunner for the majority of our missions. The entire crew, then, was composed of men finishing that day or very near to finishing. Corman was in his early thirties and the oldest man; Schwartz was probably twenty-two and the youngest.

After the ordeal of dressing for high attitude and then checking our ship, we took off at 0630. We climbed and made a circle around Buncher 6, over which the 2nd Division formed into SW squadrons and groups---a process of almost two hours duration. The first few minutes of flight I was busy adjusting my mass of equipment and laying out maps and my log sheet. At 10,000 feet the cold air began to bite through the fur lined pants and jackets; I plugged in my heated suit cord.

"Navigator to waist. Navigator to waist. We're at 10,000--put on your oxygen masks. We're forming at 13,000."

"Roger in the waist."

"Pilot to crew, pilot to crew. Look for four red-green flares, and let me know where they are." French was driving and Cochran was tuned in on VHF to hear the forming instructions from Bourbon Leader.

At 13,000 feet we leveled off. Greenly quickly located the right flares and we made a turn to get in formation with three other ships of our squadron. To the limit of vision, planes could be seen in all directions, climbing, banking, circling, attaching themselves to embryo formations. This was an ever-astounding drama--these vagrant ships floating aimlessly, yet gradually becoming integrated into the 8th Air Force aloft. Signals by flares and on radios seemed hopelessly confusing, although each signal was drawing ships from space into pattern.

"Bourbon Leader, this is Bourbon Red. Where in the hell are you? Fire some flares or do something! We haven't seen you all morning."

"Bourbon Leader to Bourbon Red. We're 10 miles south of the buncher. We've been firing flares all the time." Sing-song.

At 08:04 the 8th Air Force was in giant formation, and we thundered over Great Yarmouth on the English coast, thence out across the Channel. We began immediately to climb, the engines answering in full-throated roar.

"Navigator to crew. We're over the Channel now, and we'll hit the Dutch coast in 35 minutes. Check in on oxygen."

"Tail okay on oxygen." 

"Waist okay on oxygen."

"Pilot and co-pilot okay. Jacobs and Fiske all right, too."

"Greenly okay on oxygen in the nose."

"That's roger for me too."

"Waist to navigator. Tims, do we catch any flak before the target?"

"Only those everlasting two guns right on the coast. You'd better put on your flak-suits while we cross the Zuider Zee, though. We may be off course and see some flak at Munster or Hamm."

"Roger, thanks!"

While I was busy finding a wind by Gee-box fixes, I heard French and Cochran discussing the ship we were flying--for the first time.

"Say Doc, this ship handles much better than the one we've been flying. Take it for a minute."

Silence on interphone.

"Yeh, it sure does," Cochran drawled. "We ought not to have any trouble with this one."

At 08:38 we were over the Dutch coast at 20,000 feet, with a tailwind pushing us two minutes early. Two, then four bursts of flak appeared like gray mushrooms to our right and behind us. I was not surprised.

"By God, there's Herman and Ludwig having their fun again today," I heard Doc drawling.

"Looks like they spotted us even in a new ship," I added.

"Oh hell yes! They know this is our last mission. They're seldom off this far, though. The clouds must be bothering 'em today." It was a standing joke on the crew---this talk about Herman and Ludwig, the two "post-graduate" gunners. Anytime the flak became uncomfortably accurate, we always attributed the shooting to our two "friends".

"Goddammit, Tims, I hope Ludwig's little brother in the Luftwaffe isn't up to celebrate our last one today!"

"I hope not, Doc, we haven't seen him in a good while. Knock on wood."

At the eastern edge of the Zuider Zee the undercast broke slightly, and we were able to see the amazing network of thousands of Dutch canals, which tempted imagination with the many figures they wrote out on the Dutch earth.

At 09:06 we turned southeast to skirt the danger from Munster, Hamm, and the Ruhr. My dead reckoning showed us well on course, and no warning flak-bursts proved us wrong. We had leveled off now at 23,000 feet, and the whole Air Force was settling down behind us preparing to drive in and bomb. P-51s were riding hard on the bombers. I could see this huge fleet sitting in the sky behind us with the glints from silver-bodied planes giving sparkle to the cold, sunlit sky. The protecting fighters hovered and paused and slid fast away under us, hunting the challenge of the Luftwaffe. A strange and exultant sight---all ships fast friends in the sky battle. It was good to see them and not feel alone. Doc's voice came in on the interphone.

"Say, French, our VHF is dead. I haven't heard a sound for almost an hour."

"Better stick on it a while longer, Doc, to see if it comes back in. If not, you'd better get back on interphone before the target."

"Roger, but I'm sure it's out."

"Pilot to crew, did you hear that? VHF is out, so keep your eyes peeled for bandits. We won't have any warning."

Keen watchful eyes now ferreting out each object and holding it fast for identification. The gunners began calling out all ships near us.

"Three fighters coming in at 5 o'clock going toward 3 o'clock. Look like P-51s."

A few seconds of silence. Are they P-51s?

"Roger, they're P-51s, sliding under us now."

"Navigator to crew. We're two minutes before the Wing I.P. Start throwing out chaff when we turn."

"Roger in the waist."

As we turned northeast toward the Group I.P., I set up the bomb racks, made a few quick entries in the log, and called to Fiske to open the bomb-bay doors. The billowing cumulus lay almost 10/10 below us; we would bomb by instruments. This was the time for tightened stomachs and deep breathing and itching nerves. This was the time I cursed the heavy flying clothes, oxygen mask, and lines that hung from me in all directions----all impeding swift, efficient movement.

No flak yet! We had turned at the Group I.P. and were on the bomb run. I glanced at my ETA, then at my watch. Past time for the target, or else my own estimation was in error. In the tail turret Schwartz announced that he could see the white streamers of smoke bombs where groups behind us were bombing. He reported flak there, too.

"I believe we passed up Kassel," Greenly said from the nose turret, "That must be it they're bombing in back of us."

"I think so, Greenly." I answered him. "My own navigation shows us several minutes east -- which could be wrong, however, since I don't have a fix position."

"Watch it! There they go! They're dropping in the lead ship," shouted Cochran.

"Bombs away!" I called as I hit the toggle switch. I leaned to the window to watch tiny bombs fall away into the deep-white of the clouds. We turned southward instantly. Still no flak!

"That couldn't have been Kassel," Cochran argued. "We would have seen flak--but I ain't unhappy about it. Let's get the hell home, huh!"

Had we looked to the west of us, we should have discovered that our group was out of the bomber stream alone, too far east. We didn't and no one seemed to realize that we had no fighters for cover. The tension over the target was broken, so we relaxed our vigil. We were heading for England and Tibenham!

"Navigator to co-pilot. Hey Doc, you and French ought to be ashamed to finish on a mission like this. Not a single burst of flak over the target! How 'bout that? Where's your pride?"

"Well now, Tims, I do feel kinda bad about it. We'll just have to fly another one tomorrow, that's all."

"We will, like hell, we will," French chanted.

Silence then. We turned directly west. I stood at my window to scan the group formation momentarily. And as I looked to our rear, what I saw froze the very marrow of my bones. A host of bee-swarming fighters coming at us. Seeing and recognition were sickeningly simultaneous---a large spinner set in a large radial engine, the fuselage tapering down to slenderness. Focke-Wolfe 190s!

Silently and with awful intent they played leap-frog to get to us. There were more of them than I had ever seen at one time. As I was pressing the switch to speak and warn, I heard Schwartz sing out despairingly on interphone.

"Fighters, fighters! At 6 o'clock low. Hundreds of 'em!"

No ball turrets in our ships! And quickly, action was sere-hot. I tried to call out the positions of the attackers to warn the gunners, but it was futile. They were all over us---splitting our formation, smothering us, crippling us, exploding us, knocking us from their German sky. Their 20mm shells were hundreds of light bulbs bursting ahead of them.

"Coming past us from 9 o'clock toward you, Greenly! Get him! Now!"

"Watch that one coming under us!"

"I got one! I got one!" yelled Corman.

"Three more of them at 9! Oh Jesus!"

I saw Parson's ship to our left blossom with sudden, bright flame, then kick over and down in death struggle. Arrow's ship behind him, hurt and distressed, trying to fight off the angry bees, trailed tell-tale smoke from its bowels. One man dropped through the escape hatch of the waist. Then the ship fell like a broken child-toy from the vastness of 23,000 feet, with broken-wing resignation--leafing and spinning---that ship.

I felt the nauseating thud of our own ship being hit hard. No. 1 engine caught fire and died. The fire went out, but part of the prop was gone and an ugly hole showed in the wing.

"Where are our fighters? Where are our fighters? Oh Christ!" In desperation.

I could hear the muffled staccato of our own 50s hammering away at the attackers, and I could smell the acrid smoke from them through my mask.

"For God's sake keep off interphone so I can call 'em off coming in!" Schwarst's voice sounded my own animal fear.

"Watch that sonuvabitch on your side, French, he's almost flying formation with us!"

"I can't move over, Doc. Bruce is on fire and running into us!"

"Hit the throttle. Drop back...! Holy Christ, that was close!"

"I got another one, I got him!" Corman again, yelling like a football fan.

I saw the blue Focke-Wolfe flying alongside, so close that I could discern the features of the pilot's face and see his oxygen mask. And Corman had hit this German plane, for it belched and gasped out smoke behind. As I watched, it rolled over on its back, and the German fell out past my window. The ship spun down abruptly.

McCoy's lead ship had been shattered. A whole prop came flying back past us. From somewhere a body and a lone flying boot shot by. The combat air was a tangled, incoherent mass of burning broken ships, bodies, and debris. The high altitude changed fire into bright orange blobs.

"Steady, boys," I called ---for my own morale as much as theirs. I glanced out of my right window and saw Bruce's plane flaming furiously from the cockpit to the tail. The aluminum of its body was curling and baked brown. One after another I had seen seven fighters attack him and pour their murderous stuff into him. Never a chance! I caught a glimpse of one waist gunner fighting his window to escape, while dying his hot death. As I watched Bruce burning and still flying, I had the certain sensation that we were burning too. Every nerve in me reached out to anticipate the fire that must be enveloping us. It was then that I thought of French, Cochran, and Fiske---their last mission, Mac's too. Just three hours from England and safety!

Then our ship lurched and shuddered as though it had been dealt the death blow, stricken at its core. It was convulsed with shattering paroxysm and seemed ready to split into fragments. With it came to us all the knowledge of utter giving up. Death was more certain then, than death can ever be again. There was no conscious fear. The heat of action had burned out fear-itself, but had left us the residue of utter abandonment. I only waited and hoped against pain. Greenly had his turret door open and was firing his gun while kneeling in his seat.

"Feather 3, quick!" I heard French and Cochran shouting at each other, but could not hear what was said. I know that straightway the trembling motion of the plane ceased, and we were flying almost smoothly again on two engines.

"Right rudder must be half gone," French called. We breathed in relief to have the ship's spasm cured.

In our own trouble we had not noticed that the fighter attack had slackened. It was unbelievable that I could see no 190s streaking in to finish what they had started. Instead I saw only three B-24s in formation now winging homeward, far in front of us and above us. I drew breath. A miracle!

"Oh Christ, here come four more of 'em queuing up on us at 9o'clock!" Some one calling out and strangling the infant hope just born. Oh God, to tease us with it and then to snatch it away!

"Look, look----straight ahead and high!" Greenly was yelling frantically. There was a new tone to his voice. P-38s! P-38s! P-38s! He could find no other word but each utterance was pregnant with wild joy. Then I saw them---swift-coming, silver guardians,---hope riding in on twin-engined angels. Promise once born, then dashed, now resurrected! We came back from dead once more.

"Waist to crew, waist to crew! The bandits are gone. They went into the clouds away from the P-38s" Exultant. Now our fighters had wheeled around and were giving us protection.

"Oh you beautiful sonuvabitching, lovely angels, you!" The only words elegant enough for him to praise our fighters with were curse words.

"French look me over and see if I'm still here and whole, will you?" Doc broke in. I wanted to laugh; I wanted to shout with laughter at anything----just to let the tension in my gut burst out and to suck in deep breath.

"Pilot to navigator. Tims, how far inside Germany are we? How many minutes to hit friendly territory? We're losing altitude fast."

"Just hold on a second, French, I'll try to give you a reliable ETA to Belgium." I focused my attention on the chart before me and on my mercator. I checked the altimeter to see that we had already dropped to 18,000 feet. Using the last airspeeds and headings entered on my log before the battle, I quickly plotted our approximate position, then calculated the time required to fly out of Germany, across the Rhine.

"Navigator to pilot. French, I figure about an hour and five minutes to get to the Rhine. We're losing altitude and bucking a head-wind at the same time."

"That long!"

"Waist to pilot, waist to pilot! The bomb bay's got a gas leak that looks like a waterfall!"

"Better go down and take a look, Jacobs."

"Roger."

"You fellows in the waist start throwing out everything possible----but the guns. In the nose too. Did you hear in the nose?"

"Roger, I received you."

In great haste to return to my navigation, I began to kick every object on the floor toward the bomb bay, papers and all. I pushed ammo boxes, oxygen bottles, everything but the bombsight, ahead of me in the narrow catwalk. When I reached the bomb-bay and saw the volume of gas and hydraulic fluid that rained down inside it, I knew Corman had not exaggerated in his description of it. Enemy bullets had peppered the doors with holes. One more incendiary bullet would have annihilated us! I shoved the jetsam out through the half-opened doors.

Minutes later I discovered that the airspeed indicator had been destroyed. I tampered with the Gee-box. It was out! Suspecting something worse, I called French and told him to make a turn to test the magnetic compass. The needle did not move with the plane's turn! Confirmed.

"French, the magnetic compass is dead. I can only guess at what course we've been flying and hope I'm not off 90 degrees. You ll have to watch your gyro compass. Keep it on 270 as best you can."

"Roger. Are we out of Germany almost?"

"The airspeed is out, too, so I'll guess again. Another 30 minutes."

"Roger, we'll try to get under the clouds when you think we're over friendly territory, so let us know. Maybe you can get a check-point then."

The next half-hour crawled. Every eye searched the undercast for a break and some ground for me to identify. The fleece-like cumulus rolled under us unremittingly and monotonously. No break. No check-point. We flew on.

"Pilot to navigator. Your ETA for Belgium is up now. We're going to let down faster now. Okay?"

"Not yet, French, stay above 'em as long as you can. I'm not sure where we are, and I'd hate to fly over the Ruhr at 8000 feet."

"Roger, we'll stay up awhile longer."

We decided to try to communicate by gestures with the pilot of the P-38 that was still flying escort for us. We thought that perhaps he would know if we were out of Germany but he evidently did not understand our sign language. Then, unexpectedly, we found the answer. Flak puffs, menacing and angry, formed with the instantaneous sound of dull, faraway explosions. The ship rocked slightly. Not again! Not after living the other! Oh Christ, NO!-------but the flak bursts did not last, and we were not injured by them.

"Why those sonuvabitching, trigger-happy Heinies!" Doc exploded. I smiled.

"Them's my very sentiments," someone added in grim humor. Directly with that remark, I saw a brief break in the clouds and the first earth I'd seen in over two hours. My hungry eyes glimpsed two rivers joining a city. I called out my discovery.

"Look down! It's Koblenz! You can see the Rhine and the Meuse. We're almost in friendly country, boys."

"God save the King! England, here we come!"

The next half-hour was a happy one. We slipped down through the clouds and skimmed over friendly Belgium looking for an emergency landing-strip. We had No. 3 engine working again, but we dared not try to cross the channel to England with a ship as badly crippled as ours was; our only thought was to land and get out before we should blow up. We were not even dismayed when I discovered that, along with the other equipment, I had accidentally jettisoned the pilotage map for Belgium and northern France. I pinpointed our position by memory; I recognized a Belgian town by the river curving through it in hairpin shape. Fiske eventually received a reliable radio fix to confirm my position. I called to French to turn directly south into France for I knew we should hit one of the airfields that stretched in a line between San-Quentin and Rheims.

When we spotted a P-47 base ahead of us at last, we circled, shooting flares and received the signal to come in. Then fate proved an ungracious loser and showed her chagrin by tantalizing us one last time. The nose-wheel would not let down! When Greenly announced the fact, we were gliding in. It was too late to pull up and go around. Once again we waited the tense moment through. The wheels touched; we rolled. French braked lightly to the left, then locked his arm in the wheel-stick. The nose finally dropped and struck the runway. The ship scraped loudly and stopped tail-up at the edge of the grass. Clambering out of the cockpit escape hatch like a bunch of monkeys, we jumped to the ground one by one. The earth was far sweeter to our feet then, than thoughts of heaven to our souls.

"Stay clear of it! It's got a bad gas leak!" We yelled the warning to the crowd that had quickly gathered. They began to throw a multitude of questions at us. We must have answered their questions unconsciously, for we all were in a trance as we felt the earth solid under us. We assured the medical officer that we had all escaped without a wound. When we closely inspected our broken ship, the miracle of our perfect health was emphasized. Almost every part of the plane's surface had been riddled with holes of .50 calibre and .30 calibre sizes. Explosive 10mm shells had torn holes in the wings and had left an opening bucket sized. The gas and hydraulic lines had been shattered in numerous places.

"Well, all I can say," Doc began, "is that every one of us must have been tuned in on the Lawd's frequency."

"You can say that again, Doc!"

"For Christ's sake look at this line of holes right where I was standing, will you." Corman whispered.
And so it went. We marvelled until we grew weary of marvelling. Later that night Cochran, French, and I stood at the bar of the officers' quarters----a handsome French chateau a few miles from Rheims.

"I wonder how many planes got back to England," I said. "I saw only three ahead of us and one below us to the right at the end. The group must have lost over half of 'em."

"At least half." French nodded. "The other squadrons were hit as hard as we were."

"I'm glad that Fiske was finally able to contact the base so that they know we're safe. I'll bet the sonuvabitches had started picking up our clothes, my battle-jacket included." Doc was not happy at that thought.

"Say, did either of you guys ever see McCoy's ship go down?" I asked.

"Yeh, he got it early," Doc answered. "That was his prop that almost hit us."

"I hope McGregor was as lucky as us----or had time to bailout anyway."

"Give us three scotch and sodas, please"----to the bartender.

I raised my glass. "Here's to the end of your tour, boys. I retract that statement about this being too easy a mission to finish on. I congratulate you for having flown a well-rounded tour of duty."

We gulped down the whiskey.

The moments of the going and returning of missions were the only breaks in the monotony of war for those who waited on the ground. As it had happened so many times before on the airfields of England, so it was now at 12:30 that the men of Tibenham raised vigilant eyes to the cold horizon. From there would come the issue of their work, the real meat of their war; for their accomplishment must finally rest with the men who flew.

The ground crews had assembled at their hardstands, ready to service the homing ships and to be physician to their wounds. Intelligence officers were grouped near the dressing-rooms to begin the interrogation of landed crews; personnel in the drying-rooms were standing by; and the Red Cross girls had hot coffee and doughnuts ready for the weary, wise-cracking horde. Cut on the perimeter of the landing-field flight surgeons sat in ambulances watching for emergency flares that would tell of wounded aboard. Thus it was that the whole field fixed attention upon the mission due home.

On Hardstand 7, four of the former members of our crew were waiting to congratulate French and Cochran and to take snapshots after this last mission.

"They're overdue now. It's 12:45," Moynihan stated.

"It wouldn't be the first time a mission wasn't on time," Havard reminded him. O'Kelly and Winand were talking to the crew chief.

"There come some of 'em, I think," O'Kelly called and pointed. Three ships in formation were swinging around from the northeast edge of the field. They were wasting no time on formality and broke quickly into the landing pattern.

"Wonder where the rest of them are?" Moynihan worried.

"They'll be along, Moynihan," Winand laughed. "They probably broke up the formation to let down through the undercast."

The words were scarcely from his tongue when the news of disaster struck with rude intrusion and spread electric-quick throughout the base. The control tower had caught the terse message from Major Graham in the deputy-lead ship.

"We were hit by fighters. Practically wiped out. Wounded on board, two of us."

"Where are the ------there are more than three of you!!! In consternation and great disbelief.

"This is all of us, I guess. One ship made it back but crashed near the field. Not sure who it is."

The words sounded from mouth to mouth, even until men who were sleeping in their huts were awakened and told.

"Fighters jumped the mission, shot down all but three!"

"God-a-mighty! Only three out of thirty-five!"

"Who are the three? Who got back!"

"Who saw the numbers on the three ships?"

"Who are the three?"

"Who are the three?"

At Hardstand 7, the four men, stunned now, were hearing but not comprehending the tragedy. They left the hardstand reluctantly---as if their loss were made irrevocable by their departure---and gathered with the others at the squadron area to hear the story of disaster. Perhaps someone in one of the surviving ships had seen chutes open from French's plane. Or perhaps someone saw them make it to an emergency landing-field in Belgium or France. Many men of many ranks had crowded around the weary survivors and were asking a thousand questions at once. Those in the rear strained and stood on tiptoe to hear their answers. Some wanted to know the reasons for such a terrible loss in planes; some asked where were the American fighters; others asked about the strategy of the Luftwaffe attack; still others wanted to know only how much chance certain crews had had to bail out.

"Did you hear McCoy contact the fighter support, Graham?"

"When they hit us, I heard McCoy yelling for Balance 3-4, and Balance 3-5. They answered and kept wanting to know our position. I'm not sure whether Mac ever had a chance to tell them; he went down quick."

"How many 190s hit you?"

"About 125 of them, as near I could guess."

"Yeh, there were so many of 'em you couldn't tell. By the time one wave went through us, another wave started barreling through."

"They came through our squadron ten and twelve abreast, like the forward wall of a football team."

"The minute I lost one of the bastards from my sights, I could turn in any direction and fire at another one."

"What about Hunter, Major Graham? He was flying next to you; did you see him go down?"

"I don't know. He was in trouble, but I never did see him go down."

"What about Carrow?"

"On fire when I saw him."

"And Elder?"

"Heitz?"

"I don't know."

"Did you see what happened to French, Major Graham?"

"Yes; I saw him better than anyone else. He was flying right beside us and burning all the way back from the cockpit. He didn't have a chance! I never saw a soul bail out before their ship kicked over."

"Christ! and their last mission, too!" Whispered in benediction.

Questions were asked and answered until the entire story had been told, and everyone could picture the burning confusion of the air battle. Intelligence and Operations began to gather their impersonal data of the mission and to relay it to higher headquarters. Dead men became names on a report and data for future telegrams beginning with, "The War Department regrets ..." Top officers came from Division (and even 8th Air Force) to offer condolence to the Group Commander, Colonel Jones. The mission was now becoming a written history. Excitement passed, and heavy grimness came like gray fog from the sea and sat on the field.

In our own quarters our hut-mates sat, believing and not believing. Switzler, who had been our bombardier for nine months refused, out of desperation, to believe us dead. Each one is deeply disturbed---not just for the sake of the missing men, but because today death has been made more familiar and possible to them. If they sit huddled, it is because death has proved it can reach out and touch them, too.

"They're bound to be safe somewhere, fellows! Doc and French just two hours from the end of a tour! How could I ever write letters to Doc's and Tim's wives? ---- I know them both! They just can't be dead!"

"There's not much hope after what Major Graham said, Switzler. Sit down and take it easy, will you. This is not the first time someone's been killed in this war."

When the sergeant came from QM to take our clothes, Switzler refused to let him enter the hut. Later a lieutenant came on the same errand and was repulsed by a .45 automatic pistol in Swizler's hand.

"Don't lay a hand on those clothes, Lieutenant! Those guys are coming back!"

By the time the major arrived, the others had calmed Switzler and had scattered our clothes under bunks, or shelves, and in their own dresser drawers. The major left without our uniforms.

Late in the afternoon our radio message sent by Fiske from France was received at the base. It was Major Graham's turn to be incredulous. To add to the good news, two more messages of hope were received. Hunter and Heitz, both of the 700th had come out of Germany and had crashed in Belgium, although several of Heitz's crew were badly wounded. This unexpected salvage from the calamity dissipated some of the gloom over the field. Our hut, at least, rejoiced for the safety of the men who had once been pronounced dead. Switzler's relief and joy unspeakable.

Having been flown from France to Tibenham in a B-24 from another Group we landed at the base the next afternoon. Our welcome was genuinely warm, and the handshakes were many. I thought I detected a few who kept staring at us to be convinced as to the substance of our persons; and Major Graham sent word that he must see us in the flesh before he could believe. Having spent the last few hours ourselves in walking about the good earth and in testing our reality, we laughed and assured them all that our fate had been "cold fear, not hot death."

"I suppose you guys thought you'd had it for good, huh?" someone asked, after we had told our story.

"Well now, I reckon so," Doc began. "The Lord wasn't anointing my head with oil for nothing."

Once out of our flying clothes and dressed again, we went to a special interrogation. It was there that we learned our group had bombed by mistake the town of Cottingein, 23 miles to the east of Kassel, instead of Kassel. A lone group, out of the bomber stream and without fighter support, we had been pounced on by the Germans as easy prey. At the interrogation we turned in claims for five enemy planes destroyed by our guns, four of which we later received official credit for. I discovered what crew McGregor had been on and asked what had been their fate.

"We have no report of anyone seeing Sollien's ship on fire or going down or of the crew bailing out. Perhaps McGregor's name will appear on the POW list in a few months."

"Well, at least Mac won't have to sweat out the last one again," I said to Cochran and French.

"Maybe he'll get to rest now in some nice Heinie camp for the rest of the war."

At the bar in the Officers' Club that night our hut-mates were buying us beer - and for once I did not hear the song, "Old Soldiers Never Die." Instead I overheard someone talking and gesticulating to a crowd of listeners.

"And they kept coming in like the forward line of a football team and..." Like the compelling chant of the Ancient Mariner.

Very suddenly I knew that the exultant music of return was changing within me to the infinitely weary beat of spiritual defeat. Time after time have men been snapped up by hungry suck into the insatiable man of war. This is but one tragedy in one war - out of many tragedies in many wars. Shall I exult that this time I escaped?


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## syscom3 (Nov 5, 2005)

WOW!! What a first hand account.

One thing that struck me though was that noone noticed the group was seperated far from the main formation untill it was too late.

Also, I didnt know the belly turrets on the B24's had been removed at this time of the war. I thought they were removed after Jan '45.


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## Gnomey (Nov 5, 2005)

Excellent post Erich. Really interesting first hand account, they did get hammered by the Germans.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 5, 2005)

Gnomey said:


> Excellent post Erich. Really interesting first hand account


Agreed.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 5, 2005)

Great stuff..


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## CharlesBronson (Nov 8, 2005)

Snif...snif...I get melancolic for the large amount of info, Thank so much Erich, I stole it and became the translation to the spanish.  

Off course giving the source:


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## Erich (Nov 9, 2005)

CB if you are using "all" of this thread for a web-site I would appreciate the url. also I have just been sent some stimulating reports covering the 27 Septmeber 44 route of the 445th bg. I would advise CB you delete the materials covering the raid as I need to rewrite them and there are errors within the old operational text that I wrote 

E ~


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## CharlesBronson (Nov 9, 2005)

> CB if you are using "all" of this thread for a web-site I would appreciate the url. also I have just been sent some stimulating reports covering the 27 Septmeber 44 route of the 445th bg. I would advise CB you delete the materials covering the raid as I need to rewrite them and there are errors within the old operational text that I wrote
> 
> E ~



No problem, I still dont post nothing yet.


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## Erich (Nov 9, 2005)

Walter Loos, blue 14, Stab./JG 300. most of his victories in JG 300 cannot be confirmed ! wingman to another guy who put in for bogus claims, Geschwaderkommodore Walter Dahl


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## CharlesBronson (Nov 9, 2005)

He,he yes indeed I love the leather jacket, the shoes are not the Lutwaffe flying boots.



> wingman to another guy who put in for bogus claims, Geschwaderkommodore Walter Dahl



I see numbers between 29 and 36 viermots atributed to Dahl, what you think..?


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## Erich (Nov 9, 2005)

the lower number probably is correct. Ever since Dahl became the Kommodore for JG 300 he claimed the glory on 3/4rs of the SturmFw missions for himself and his Geschwader. There is still so much confusion as to which sturmgruppe claimed the correct amount of Heavy bombers when more than one gruppe attacked enmasse with one another. Wood's listing cannot even be trusted, and since I have mentioned the lack of confirmed documentation from the fall of 44 till wars end it doubly makes it heven harder.......


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## lesofprimus (Nov 9, 2005)

Alot of people dispute Dahl's claims, and rightly so...


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## Erich (Nov 9, 2005)

it atually starts on the huge air battel of 7-7-44 over Oschersleben. Rad Dahl's rammjäger book and you see what I mean. there is much fantasy reading to be had in it ............ kinda like Pierre Closterman's big show


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## WEISNER (Nov 9, 2005)

So Erich, What victories if any by Loos can be confirmed?
Kevin


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## lesofprimus (Nov 9, 2005)

I can find 2 refrences, 18 and 19 kills confirmed....


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## WEISNER (Nov 9, 2005)

Thanks for your reply, the book I keep at my computer for reference states 22 four motor and a total of 38 victoris. from Horrido. Jg 300 book shows 6 vic through sept 1944. what scources were you quoting from lesofprimus? any how as Erich is a friend of sorts I would like to hear his take....
Kevin
Ps, looking at pictures of Dahl, to me he just looks like a B.S'R. always looks perfect for the camera too.............


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## lesofprimus (Nov 9, 2005)

One source was http://www.luftwaffe.cz/loosw.html

The other is from memory of an article from Neil Page...

I do seem to recall an interview with Loos in which he stated that he felt HIS performance directly affected the WHOLE Gruppes moral.... Maybe some insight as to some of his bolstered claims??? 

EIther way, he was a hell of a pilot and got to fly the baddest prop kite of the war, the Ta-152H-1....


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## lesofprimus (Nov 9, 2005)

And heres Walther Dahls mugshot....


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## WEISNER (Nov 9, 2005)

I agree with you on the 152, along with the Dora series 190, He219 and the Ju88 G series nightfighters the Ta152 is one of my favorite aircraft. supposedly Loos had 3? victories in the Ta152....
Kevin


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## syscom3 (Nov 9, 2005)

Erich said:


> it atually starts on the huge air battel of 7-7-44 over Oschersleben.



My info shows that the 14th Bomb Wing was hit hard on the bomb run. The 492nd BG had 12 loss's that day.

Well Erich, do you have more info on what happened as seen from the German perspective?


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## Erich (Nov 9, 2005)

last shot is of Dahl in his Stab III./JG 3 Bf 109G-6.

I won't even guess as to how many kills Dahl or Loos had. Much of what Petr has on the RK winners is from Obermaiers fighter aces history and although excellent has errors within. Great piece of work though.

syscom our web-site covers a bit on the raid but I guess I need to pull out all my notes and further this. ZG 26 was also involved with Me 410's but they did not account for much. IV.Sturm/JG 3 and II.Sturm/JG 3 plus the high cover 109G-6's of I./JG 300 accounted for 55 US heavy bombers on 7-7-44. the 8th and the 15th AF both felt the SturmFw sting ......


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## WEISNER (Nov 10, 2005)

Usless fact, if 55 B-17's were lined up wingtip to wingtip, that would stretch approx 1 mile, 500 feet. that is a long walk of aircraft shot down on 7-7-44. as I said....usless fact.......
Kevin


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## Erich (Nov 10, 2005)

to 7-7-44 and the confusion, here is official US AF documentation:

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 458: 1,129 bombers and
756 fighters are dispatched to attack synthetic oil plants, aircraft assembly
plants and engine works, airfields and an equipment depot, marshalling yards
railway station and railway repair shops in Germany; 37 bombers and 6
fighters are lost:
1. Of 373 B-24s, 102 hit Lutzkendorf and 64 hit Halle oil plants, 90 hit
Bernburg and 73 hit Aschersleben aircraft plants and 8 hit targets of
opportunity; they claim 39-5-10 Luftwaffe aircraft; 28 B-24s are lost, 1
damaged beyond repair and 126 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 11 WIA and 274 MIA.
Escort is provided by 224 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they claim 46-1-16
Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 and 3 P-51s are lost (pilots are MIA).
2. Of 303 B-17s, 64 hit Bohlen and 51 hit Merseburg oil plants, 67 hit
Kolleda and 32 hit Lutzkendorf Airfields, 22 hit targets of opportunity and
16 hit Gottingen marshalling yard; 2 B-17s are lost and 112 damaged; 3 airmen
are WIA and 20 MIA. Escort is provided by 185 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they
claim 9-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 3-0-1 on the ground; 1 P-47 and
1 P-51 are lost (pilots are MIA).
3. Of 453 B-17s, 114 hit Leipzig/Taucha, 79 hit Leipzig/Mockau, 35 hit
Leipzig/Heiterblick and 15 hit Leipzig/Abtnaundorf oil plants, 46 hit Leipzig
bearing industry, 35 hit Kolleda Airfield, 19 hit Leipzig Station and 7 hit
Nordhausen; 7 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 152 damaged; 15
airmen are KIA, 5 WIA and 50 MIA. Escort is provided by 247 P-47s and P-51s;
they claim 20-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 1-0-0 on the ground; 1
P-51 is damaged beyond repair (pilot is WIA).
Mission 459: 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets in France and Belgium during the
night. 

TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 100+ A-20s and B-26s bomb
rail bridge near Tours, and targets of opportunity in the Lisieux and
Beuzeville areas; 500+ fighters fly escort and area cover, carry out armed
reconnaissance of communication and troop activity, and bomb railroads,
rolling stock, marshalling yards, ammunition dumps, and bridges in frontline
areas and wide areas of W France; HQ 36th Fighter Group moves from
Kingsnorth, England to Brucheville; and the 377th, 378th and 379th Fighter
Squadrons, 362d Fighter Group, move from Headcorn, England to Lignerolles
with P-47s. In England, the 392d Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter Group, moves
from Stony Cross to Ibsley with P-38s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 560+ bombers attack in Germany
and Yugoslavia; B-17s bomb 2 synthetic oil plants at Blechhammer, Germany;
B-24s also hit Blechhammer and a synthetic oil and coking plant at Odertal,
Germany and Zagreb, Yugoslavia Airfield and marshalling yard; the bombers and
fighter escorts claim 50+ aircraft shot down during fierce battle with 275-
300 fighters mainly in the Vienna-Budapest area; 18 US aircraft are listed as
destroyed and a larger number missing.

be aware that many of the 15th AF bombers flew northwad and were subject to SturmFw attacks


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## Gnomey (Nov 10, 2005)

Good info Erich!


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## syscom3 (Nov 10, 2005)

Heres a list of all the USAAF aircraft missing in the ETO on July 7 1944

MACR Group Aircraft
6803 4 P-51
6701 20 P-38
7353 44 B-24
7354 44 B-24
7355 44 B-24
6514 52 P-51
6573 82 P-38
6696 353	P-47
6794 355 P-51
6792 355 P-51
6694 357 P-51
6657 362 P-47
6646 368 P-47
6645 368 P-47
6664 370 P-38
7358 379 B-17
7357 379 B-17
6632 379 B-26
7492 389 B-24
7366 389 B-24
7365 389 B-24
7364 389 B-24
7363 389 B-24
7367 390 B-17
7368 390 B-17
7371 392 B-24
7370 392 B-24
7216 392 B-24
7369 392 B-24
7218 392 B-24
7221 398 B-17
7219 398 B-17
7222 401 B-17
6373 451 B-24
7226 453 B-24
6371 454 B-24
6571 454 B-24
6569 454 B-24
6515 455 B-24
8195 457 B-17
7227 458 B-24
6815 459 B-24
6591 459 B-24
6593 460 B-24
6566 463 B-17
6864 463 B-17
6862 463 B-17
6572 464 B-24
6570 464 B-24
6588 464 B-24
6594 464 B-24
6590 464 B-24
6957 465 B-24
7549 489 B-24
7238 492 B-24
7236 492 B-24
7831 492 B-24
7228 492 B-24
7232 492 B-24
7230 492 B-24
7237 492 B-24
7235 492 B-24
7233 492 B-24
7229 492 B-24
7231 492 B-24
7239 492 B-24
7240 802 MOSQUITO


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## Erich (Nov 13, 2005)

just noted this last night..........from EE


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## lesofprimus (Nov 13, 2005)

Early 2006 means Summer 2006.... Hopefully I'll be finished with Vol. I before this one comes out...

BTW gentlemen, this book, Jagdeschader 300 Vol. I is unreal.... The pics and the text, as well as the paper used, are all top of the line.... Definatly worth the 75.00 and I'm only in Chapter 3...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 13, 2005)

Will deffinatly check that one. It is time to buy some new books anyhow for my collection.


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## GT (Feb 20, 2006)

Cancelled.


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## Erich (Feb 20, 2006)

do you have a first name and where did his last name come from .........a book ?


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## Gizmo (Feb 20, 2006)

Hi,

According Publisher (Schiffer edition) cover painting of Willi Reschke JG 301/302 book present "(...)12./Jg 301 Sturmbocks crossed paths with the 352nd FG (...)"
Also Reschke himself mentioned (see page 163, 189 and 192) that he flew Fw 190 with 30 mm cannons.
Any comments ?


Also, I want to present my list of Sturmgruppen aces (10+ kills)

Pilot---Units-- Claims (Sturmgruppen Units only )	

Werner Gerth;	Sturmstaffel 1, IV.(Sturm)/JG3;	26(22 Viermotors) ; KIA 2 11 44
Klaus Neumann;	IV.(Sturm)/JG3;	20 (19) 
Konrad Bauer;	II.(Sturm)/JG 300;	16 (10 Vier) [36 ? (29 Viermotors ? )]
Walter Loos;	IV.(Sturm)/JG3 JG 300;	~17( 9 ) 
Willi Maximowitz; Sturmstaffel 1, IV.(Sturm)/JG3;	15(15) + 12 VVS a/c;	KIA 20 04 45
Klaus Bretschneider; II.(Sturm)/JG 300; 14 (13); KIA 24 12 44
Walter Dahl;	Stab/JG 300;	14(12)	
Siegfried Müller; Sturmstaffel 1, IV.(Sturm)/JG3;	12(9) + 3 VVS	
Rudolf Zwesken;	II.(Sturm)/JG 300;	12+ (7+) 
Willi Unger;	IV.(Sturm)/JG3;	11(11) + 3 VVS 
Gerhard Vivroux;	Sturmstaffel 1, IV.(Sturm)/JG3;	11(10); WIA 6 10 44 DOW 25 10 44
Wolfgang Kosse;	Sturmstaffel 1, IV.(Sturm)/JG3;	11(6)	KIA 24 12 44
Oskar Bösch;	Sturmstaffel 1, IV.(Sturm)/JG3;	10( 8 ) + 8 VVS	
Oskar Romm;	IV.(Sturm)/JG3	10( 8 ) + 6 VVS	
Rudolf Metz; Sturmstaffel 1, II(Sturm)./JG 4; 9(9);	KIA 6 10 44


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## Erich (Feb 20, 2006)

Gizmo your list needs some additions. Dahls score can be questioned as well as Walter Loos and the last pilots score has never been officially accounted for as some of his supposed kills were not recorded.

friend Oskar Bösch actually had a total of 19 kills though he credits himself with 18.

JG 301/302 book by Schiffer cover pic of a Fw 190A-8/R2, not a SturmFw and actually no proof of that colour or marking schemem by any fotos. III./JG 300 was the Schwere gruppe of JG 301 and in september/October 44 before they accepted some Ta 152H's later were to perform Sturm like tactics but the Fw's had NO heavy armor, in cat the outside 2cm was replaced by the Mk 108's sometimes but the usal armament was just for the regular A-8. The gruppe attacked by 3-5 a/c at a time in a small wedge up[on the bombers and this is what they did on 26 November 44 against the 445th bg (lost 5 B-24's) and the 491st bg (lost 16), all to JG 301 Fw 190A's. My cousin was KIA on this mission flying his Fw 190A-9, white 2 while in 5./JG 301, Siegfried Baer.

I have not checked my sources but I do believe that Schiffers book cover is for the disasterous March 2, 45 mission when the 352nd blue nose Mustangs blasted JG 301


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## Gizmo (Feb 20, 2006)

Thanks for the quick answer.

According publisher, book cover is for 21st November 1944 clash.


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## Erich (Feb 20, 2006)

interesting that is the first mission that JG 301 flew as a Gefechtsverband in unity. came out of the clouds to blast one B-17 formation, the 398th bomb group lost 10-15 bombers accorind to their historian. Roger Freeman in his mighty eighth war diary gives losses at 5 B-17's only. Very little is actually known about that mission though. much of the JG 301 kills were given to JG 1 which is odd....this was my cousins first mission while in 5th staffel

One other thing is that Will Reschke did not have all availbel infos for his book available to him such as total kills and losses. read through the chapter(s) concerning 1945 and you will find huge gaps with sometimes no dates even given for the missions agasint US and Soviet fighters and the bombings of Soviet bridgeheads with JG 300 fighters


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## Gizmo (Feb 20, 2006)

Erich, Did you know about others non-Sturmgruppen units equipment with Fw 190A-8/R2 ?


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## Erich (Feb 20, 2006)

A-7/R2's made up many of the machines in I./JG 11, no armor but had the outboard Mk 108's fitted used in frontal attacks in the spring of 44 before the A-8 took their places


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## GT (Feb 21, 2006)

Update.


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## Gizmo (Mar 11, 2006)

I have found, that I./JG2 and I./JG 26 also used small number of Fw 190A-8/R2.
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg2.html
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bijg26.html

Erich, one more question...
Did "standard" (not sturmbock) variant of Fw 190A-8/R2 had additional armour for 30mm ammunition ?


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## Erich (Mar 12, 2006)

there were only 3 sturmgruppen fitted with A-8/r2 and r8 variants with added armor on the fuselage, wings around ammo boxes, canopy, cockpit. the standard A-8/r2 or MK all had just outboard 3cm weapons for bomber killing they were not armored. Also III./JG 301 had a few full on R2 variants with cockpit armor and armored front glass but still not so like the 3 SturmFw gruppen.

I./JG 11 first used the MK model for bomber killing attacking from the front and also JG 1 was suppose to be suplemented as well, why I./JG 11 was not done over as a full on Sturmgruppe is beyond me as it probably had the most experienced crews of any outfit in the spring/summer of 44. Even the tried Sturmstaffel 1 that transferred personell into JG 3 and later JG 4 still did not have the kill ratio/losses that I./JG 11 had, instead I./JG 11 flew the A-8 standard


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## Erich (Jun 10, 2006)

JG 4 volumes by Eric Mombeek are almost finished being translated from the German to the English and volume 2 of EE's JG 300 due out in September this year hopefully ..........


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## lesofprimus (Jun 10, 2006)

Im waiting unpatiently for the Vol II JG300 book.... Hurry the fu*k up already.....


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## Erich (Jun 10, 2006)

I know I know, but at least the Dora book, volume 1 will be available before JG 300 so that might be some bright news to the gloom ........


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## lesofprimus (Jun 10, 2006)

U got a link for the Dora book Erich, or the author and title atleast???


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## Erich (Jun 10, 2006)

see eagle-editions.com

Jerry Crandall, new releases page and they cover the Dora book(s) of sorts. no commitment as to when the volumes will be released by stone and stone which is quite reputable mentions the September release month


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## Twitch (Jun 12, 2006)

Reminded me of some info I have on Willi Maximowitz and his A8-/R8. This picture shows his Black 8 attacking B-24Js of the 93ed BG in summer 1944. He was in IV Sturm/JG3 which took in his original Sturmstaffel 1 formed in November 1943. Rüstsätze modifications replaced the outboard MG 151 20 mms with Mk 108 30 mms.

As a Strumback or rammer Willi scored several kills over heavies by ramming. His final tally was 27 with 15 4-engined bombers. He went MIA April 20, 1945


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## Erich (Jun 12, 2006)

a little added info Twitch. Maxi flew black 8 on jabo missions in Normandie for a week before his 11.Sturm/JG 3 was then re-evaluated and used for the basis of the Sturmangriff for the IV. gruppe. We are not usre if he used this Schwarze 8 continually or other a/c as Will Unger sure did at least 12 different Sturms.

maxi went missing with Soviet fighters at mid-altitude and told my freind and his kaermaden in 14.Sturm/JG 3 that he packed away an Mp 40 in the cockpit and if crash-landing in soviet territory that he was going to save the last bullet for himself. Still studying by maxi may hve only had one ramming. and also the painting depicts an A-8/R2 as the R8's did not come available till end of November 44 with standard removeal of the cowling mg 131's and the aerodynamic fairings installed as standard. R2's had the installation but it wa done in the field and not at the factory ...........

Tschuß


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## Wurger (Jun 12, 2006)

Hi !!!
There a pic of the Willi Maximowitz's Fw 190A8-/R8 " Black 8 ".

source unknown:


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## Erich (Jun 12, 2006)

geez guys its a frickin A-8/R2 ok ............. the pic is a series of well known often published shots of him doing a taxi run without the under fuselgage bomb while their short stint - 1 week on Normandie. there is so much myth that goes on when 1-2 photos appear especially on the net


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## lesofprimus (Jun 12, 2006)

> see eagle-editions.com
> 
> Jerry Crandall, new releases page and they cover the Dora book(s) of sorts. no commitment as to when the volumes will be released by stone and stone which is quite reputable mentions the September release month


I just purchased the Green Hearts Dora 9 book Erich.... Any comments on that one??? I remember u saying it was a pretty damn good book with only a few innacuracys....


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## Erich (Jun 12, 2006)

it is a classic on the III./JG 54 first with the Dora and into JG 26. Great profiles probably the best ever printed in my mind, kills, losses, history. A fantastic work wish Axel would get it together and put his earlier Janaury to August 44 book on III./JG 54 in print but he is working on othere things.

you will enjoy this Les ........ read slowly and soak it in like the JG 300 book, I am still on page 114 or something of sorts.....too much side research taking me away from things that need reading/finishing . . .


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## lesofprimus (Jun 12, 2006)

I have read the JG300 Vol I twice already hehe.... An unreal amount of info there... Im looking foward to the Dora 9 book, as well as the 2 volume Dora book.... From what I understand, both volumes will be sold together.... Am I misinterpeting the write up???


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## Erich (Jun 12, 2006)

Les it appears so which is silly in my mind but yet will save them monies. both promiosed at the same time and they will have the books then for shipment instead of waiting forever. there is so much on the dora the last two years and now am not sure how much more of the "new" is even out there and not known by us all. I'll pick up volume 1 just to add to what I already have on the 
doras of JG 301 and JG 300 the latter will be indepth to a point in 2nd volume of JG 300, the dora being used in a capacity it was not meant for ........

E


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## Twitch (Jun 13, 2006)

Wurger, Erich- here's a profile I have of Black 8


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## Erich (Jun 13, 2006)

the profile again depicts the Schwarze 8 before it's total Paner fittings in Luly of 44. time of the profile depiction is Normandie first week of June 44. Note the panzerplatten should be on the fuselage side-steel bolted plates. later front armored glas screen and then the Scheuklappen or blinkers as they liked to be called on all Iv.Sturm/JG 3 Fw's for nearly the whole war some even had them still on the Ost front battles of 45.
red stripe over the adlerflugel exhaust and the spinner colours should be a baclk prop with yellow stipe not red and yellow which none of the SturmFw had. During July and early August 44 the the 11th and 13th staffels had a black prop with white spiralschnauze and the 12th had yellow on the black background plus a yellow edge on the exhaust. 2./Jg 51 was the foruth staffel and they had a red stripe on a black prop base with a red stripe around the exhaust eagle. After August 10, 44 2./JG 51 became the new 16th staffel and all Sturms had the black prop spinner with white stripe, thw hite fusleage band was removed as well as the ~ over it and the black-blue engine cowling paint job was also removed. Indeed the colours of the Iv gruppe were dissolved at July 44's end with the additions of new Sturms coming into the unit, the colours of the gruppe reamined quite bland .......


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## lesofprimus (Jun 13, 2006)

Awesome info Erich....


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## Wurger (Jun 14, 2006)

Thanks a lot Erich.Excelent info for me.


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## Wurger (Jun 14, 2006)

Thank you for the profil Twitch.I've found others.

Erich could you comment on them?

source unknown:


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## Erich (Jun 14, 2006)

well the two sturms need to be combined to get 1 a/c correctly. they both have the wrong camo as they are not that dark nor that green. no red/yellow spinner so the top one is crrect in that regard. the fuselage band is a wide white one like the upper but the welle ~ is like the upper one not the bottom.

the drop tank in the lower profile is correct the upper one is late war November-Janaury 45 and onward. Panzerplatten on the side of the fuselage like the upper is correct. blue-black cowling like the upper but the gun configuration is like the bottom, the upper inboard 2cm are too long. the wappenshield of JG 3 is like the lower one as well, small but not that small as shown in the profile. the winged U is like the upper profile shown going toward the left. The a/c is painted in the 1944 greys no green/brown colours


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## Gnomey (Jun 14, 2006)

Good stuff Erich!


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## Erich (Jun 14, 2006)

heres the camo colouration of maxi's black 8 or what it should be like with it' sister machines - the first top two

courtesy EE's sorry for being a little fuzzy ........


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## Wurger (Jun 14, 2006)

Thank you once again Erich.Useful info there.


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## Erich (Jun 15, 2006)

you guys might want to read this and ask me questions as the real story is a bit different than the chaos written here from the 483rd which lost altogether 15 B-17's to IV.Sturm/JG 3. the Sturmangriff attack was so effective on the rear of the B-17's of this US 15th AF that even the Sturmgruppe of JG 3 were given ridiculous kill claims of 34 to their credit. The 15th AF lost a total of 17 B-17's this date and at least 8 P-51's to JG 300

the SturmJG 3 airfield of Memmingen was pounded literally into the ground ...... with hardly a building left, the control HQ unit one of the few remaining. Walter Dahl with his staff of JG 300 were also here and drove out to the edge of the field and ran into the trees watching the bombardment, plus ducking their heads. he had an agina attack which kept him from leading his JG 300 fighters

http://www.483rd.com/mmission.html

by the way no rockets were used as the 3cm must have been very powerful - HE/I in the eyes of the brave bomber crews .....

E


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## lesofprimus (Jun 15, 2006)

> "gunners of the 483rd Bombardment Group's formation, accounted for fifty-three (53) enemy aircraft destroyed, eight (8) probably destroyed and five (5) damaged."


 I find the extremely hard to believe that many went down to the bombers gunners, especially since so many of them went down in the matter of seconds....



> "As they turned off the target, twelve (12) P-38's from the lst Fighter Group appeared and attacked the German fighters."


How many German aircraft were lost to the -38's vs the -17's???



> "bomb strike photos showed 118 enemy aircraft present (40 single engine, 77 twin engine and one multi-engine). Claims were 17 destroyed, 4 probably destroyed and 14 damaged."


17 out of 118 aircraft destroyed on the ground sounds like an unsuccessful mission to me...


> "143 officers and men paid with their lives and fourteen (14) out of twenty-six (26) airplanes failed to return"


Doesnt sound like the sacrifice was worth the results....


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## Erich (Jun 15, 2006)

you got that right Les. Try a total los count of the gruppe that attacked them and you come up with 12 Sturm FW's of JG 3 lost, 7 KIA and 5 wounded. Obergefreiter Schulz had shot down a B-17 as well as a P-51 and he was KIA from the bg gunners.............all German Sturm losses were to the B-17's but a far cry from what they were given credit for. the opposite like I said was the claims by the Sturms, originally given as 49 kills but reduced to 34 which is still to high. this would of been a fantastic propaganda victory and it was on film for the gruppe, only inked out by the total destruction of it's airfield. the P-38's and the P-51 claimed nothing from the IV./JG 3 gruppe, JG 300 on the other hand a different matter as the Jg was mixing it up with at least P-51's.

the amount of destruction also given by the 483rd is totally wrong, they wrecked the airfield from one end to another. JG 3 lost 13 ground crew in the bombing, nearlye very building destroyed or severly damaged. Dahl and his personal staff barely got away in their vehicles and it appeasr only the control tower was spared. There were 170 GErman personell killed and 140 wounded. What I have written in German : several notalbe pilots of JG 3 wounded, 26 machines destroyed and 30 heavily damged of this totals, 13 were SturmFw's, 2 Storchs and the JG 3 Sturm Ar 96 with heavy damage. Many destroyer twin engine Me 410's bit the bullet while on the field .....


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## Erich (Jun 24, 2006)

check our web-site out guys/gals

Neil has brought back more SturmFw materials from our old site .................... YES !! look at my www posted


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## Erich (Jun 30, 2006)

huge write up on 29 August 44 where the 15th AF 2nd bg was brutally attacked by IV.Sturm/JG 3 and remnants of JG 300 which took on the US P-51's of the 31st fg and P-38's

in the works shortly ............


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## Erich (Jul 14, 2006)

more shameless plugging............go down midway and find new bios of the SturmFw pilots and pics to boot .......... on the web-site

HOGAN !!


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## GroundPilot (Jul 22, 2006)

Erich, per your post below. How do I get to this "Midway' and find the good stuff? GroundPilot

"........go down midway and find new bios of the SturmFw pilots and pics to boot .......... on the web-site...."


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## lesofprimus (Jul 22, 2006)

Midway down the websites first page meatball...


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## Raketemensch (Jun 18, 2011)

Erich,

I can't thank you enough for the detailed info about the IV/JG3's Dec. 24th 1944 raid on the 487th over Belgium. I am a distant relative of Hptm. Hubert York-Weydenhammer, who was Gruppenkommandeure of IV/JG 3 from Major Moritz's departure on Dec. 5th 1944 to Dec 25th 1944, when he went MIA. This is the first detailed account I have managed to find so far online! 

Do you happen to know what Hptm. York-Weydenhammer's Sturmbock designation was? I am trying to find details on his plane. I find quite a few pictures of FW190 A8-R2s and A8-R8s with unknown pilots. I am hoping to trace one of them back to him. Any information you can share would be welcome!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Erich (Jun 18, 2011)

can you send me a private by personal email ? check out my profile it should be listed there.

your relative although Kommandeur would likely have flown a number 1 early in the war and with a totally different unit. because there was the belief that noted aces and leaders of gruppen and stafflen were singled out by the low numbers of their flown A/C most assuredly York did not fly a 1 but a higher number, and there may have been cause to believe that he never flew that number at all and never had his own personal SturmFw.

In fact when he went MIA he was flying Fw 190A-8/R8 werke nummer 682310 and so marked on the fuselage : Black < 5.
the stab flight having possibly 3-4 heavy Fw 190's in their line up.

send me a private as I said, will be gone for 5 days on business but will try and check my personal mails.

E ~


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## humblemunkey (Nov 13, 2015)

Erich said:


> can you send me a private by personal email ? check out my profile it should be listed there.
> 
> your relative although Kommandeur would likely have flown a number 1 early in the war and with a totally different unit. because there was the belief that noted aces and leaders of gruppen and stafflen were singled out by the low numbers of their flown A/C most assuredly York did not fly a 1 but a higher number, and there may have been cause to believe that he never flew that number at all and never had his own personal SturmFw.
> 
> ...



Hello! 
I hope you still monitor this forum! I would like to speak to you gentlemen regarding page 9 comments on this following thread...


I am researching information about a B-17 shot down over Leige by Weydenhammer and 3 others from JG3, on 24 Dec 1944. My grandmother's husband was the Ball Turret Gunner on that plane and was killed.

Please feel free to send me a PM or email. 

Thank you for your time,
Cary


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## fubar57 (Nov 13, 2015)

Erich hasn't visited the site in over a year but someone may know how to get a hold of him. Also you might want to delete your email address here and then send it to him if someone knows how to get a hold of him.



Geo


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## Wurger (Nov 13, 2015)

The e-mail address has been deleted in order to protect the member from spam.


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## Crimea_River (Nov 13, 2015)

Try the Twelve O'Clock High forum as well. Lots of data there.

Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - Powered by vBulletin


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## humblemunkey (Nov 16, 2015)

Erich said:


> thought I would throw in an older image this A-8/R8 of Bake in IV.Sturm/Jg 3 at the time of the hideous Ardenne aerial battles



I do not see any images on this thread. Can you repost or send this to me? Bake, of IV/JG3 shot down my grandmother's husband.


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## humblemunkey (Nov 16, 2015)

Ok, thank you for the help fubar, wurger and crimea! Erich often mentions looking at his website for information. Anyone know what the website is?


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## drgondog (Nov 16, 2015)

Rick (Erich) may be a member of FB WW2Aircaft site, you might post there. He also sees my FB site "355th Fighter Group" so you might post the question there - he will surely see it.


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## stona (Nov 16, 2015)

Hubert-York Weydenhammer had a long career with the Luftwaffe but until October 1944 he flew various bombers, serving with various units within LG 1. Like many he was converted to fighters in an act of desperation by the Luftwaffe, becoming Kommandeur of IV./JG 3 on 5th December '44. He claimed six victories between 2nd November '44 and his death on 25th December of the same year, including two four engine bombers.
I can't help with markings for his aircraft (if he had one) or the aircraft in which he went down (south east of Liege/Luttich towards St Vith).
Cheers
Steve


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## humblemunkey (Nov 19, 2015)

stona said:


> Hubert-York Weydenhammer had a long career with the Luftwaffe but until October 1944 he flew various bombers, serving with various units within LG 1. Like many he was converted to fighters in an act of desperation by the Luftwaffe, becoming Kommandeur of IV./JG 3 on 5th December '44. He claimed six victories between 2nd November '44 and his death on 25th December of the same year, including two four engine bombers.
> I can't help with markings for his aircraft (if he had one) or the aircraft in which he went down (south east of Liege/Luttich towards St Vith).
> Cheers
> Steve



Fantastic, Steve! Thank you for this information! I am in touch with someone in Belgium that has started combing through what is believed to be the crash site of B-17 337569 that Hubert attacked on 24 Dec 44. Perhaps he might also locate the site of Hubert's crashed plane as well! The locations should not be that far from each other based on your intel. I am sure Hubert was flying a FW190-A8 of some variant.


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