# 5 Favourite Planes



## cheddar cheese (Mar 4, 2004)

This thread was the lancs idea and 92.5% of the credit has to go to him 8)

Anyways, he was wondering what everybodies 5 favourite planes of world war 2 were, heres my list 8)

1. Piaggio P-108
2. Hawker Hurricane
3. Messerschmtt Bf-109
4. Heinkel He-177
5. Ilyushin IL-2

8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 6, 2004)

1) Avro Lancaster (obviously)
2) DH Mosquito
3) Glostor Meteor
4) B-29
5) Hawker Hurricane


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 6, 2004)

It changes all the time  but currently its:

1) Gloster Gladiator
2) Mitsubishi F1M 'Pete'
3) DH Mosquito
4) A6M 'Zero'
5) Vickers Wellington 'Wimpey' 

\/


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## kiwimac (Mar 6, 2004)

FW 190 (all marques)
Me-109 (all marques)
Hawker Hurricane
Heinkel He-219
Heinkel He-280


Kiwimac


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## nutter (Mar 6, 2004)

Spitfire
Lancaster
hurricane
109
and the mustang


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## Hot Space (Mar 6, 2004)

Spitfire XIV
Spitfire XVIII
Spitfire F.24
Sopwith Camel
My best friends Dog   

Hot Space


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## Hot Space (Mar 6, 2004)

........................I like Spitfires   

Hot Space


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## Archer (Mar 6, 2004)

F4U-1A (due to the three-tone paint scheme  )
F4U-1D (due to having a three-bladed prop)
F4U-4/-4B (Due to being in WWII and doing lots of ground attack)
F4U-2 (night fighter)
F4U-1 (fighter, but the canopy takes away from its beauty somewhat)

Other than Corsairs everything I like is about the same - SBD, TBF/TBM, P-61, Spitfire, Typhoon, Beaufighter, Yak-3, Zero, Val, Kate, and a bunch of others.


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 7, 2004)

so whats so special about German planes Kiwi?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 7, 2004)

Archer said:


> F4U-1A (due to the three-tone paint scheme  )
> F4U-1D (due to having a three-bladed prop)
> F4U-4/-4B (Due to being in WWII and doing lots of ground attack)
> F4U-2 (night fighter)
> ...



i think somebody's in love........................

(BTW, if you didn't guess, i was talking about Archers "obsession" with the corsair..........


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 7, 2004)

Well whatever floats his boat - some might argue you're a little obsessed with Lancs? (not that theres anything wrong with that)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 7, 2004)

yeah, but it's ok to be obsessed with the lanc, it's a great plane and worthy of an obsession, i mean you don't see a B-17 carrying a tallboy to almost any part of germany, do you?


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 7, 2004)

My friend are you trying to say that one of the best fighters of WW2 is not worthy of obsession?


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## Rafe35 (Mar 7, 2004)

*Fighter Aircraft*

Goodyear F2G-2 "Super Corsair" 
Vought F4U-1 "Corsair" (Early Birdcage)
Goodyear FG-1D "Corsair"
Vought F4U-4 "Corsair"
Vought F4U-1A "Corsair" (First Bubble Canopy)

*Prototpye Fighter* (Well I thought it would be alright to added here)

Vought XF4U-3 "Corsair"
Vought F4U-4X "Corsair"
Goodyear XF2G-1 "Super Corsar"
Vought XF4U-1 "Corsair" 
Vought XF4U-2 "Corsair" (First Night Fighter Corsair)


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## kiwimac (Mar 7, 2004)

I really, really like German aircraft~  What can I say?

Kiwimac


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 7, 2004)

Fair enough  i just wondered if there was any reason thats all - i'm a fan of Japanese aircraft myself - i just like the way they are designed - sleek and noble looking, i suppose i like them so much because it reflects their beautiful culture


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## jj1982 (Mar 7, 2004)

this is a hard one....

Hawker hurricane
gloster gladiator
b-17 fort
de havilland mosquito
the old favorite the spitfire mkXVI

real hard choices....the above were choosen on what i like to look at and find out about...not nessecarrily cos they were shit hot planes.....but they blatenly were


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## jj1982 (Mar 7, 2004)

ps sorry bout spelling am getting tired!


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## jj1982 (Mar 7, 2004)

I've just thought about the Junkers Ju88: nightfighter...I havent seen it mentioned and yes I am aware it was a kraut machine...i still feel it is worthy of a mention...It was an excellent all rounder i think as a bomber and as a fighter......


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 7, 2004)

I have never been a fan of German aircraft - i think they look evil...but credit where its due - it was a tough customer and a good plane (for a german effort)


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## Rafe35 (Mar 7, 2004)

I think Gunther Rall is cool, well he was 2nd leading ace for German I think


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## kiwimac (Mar 7, 2004)

JU88, nifty plane. The only plane to have more differing roles than the Mosquito.

Kiwimac


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## SINKA (Mar 8, 2004)




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## kiwimac (Mar 8, 2004)

Still I like the TA 154 Moskito as well!

Kiwimac


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## GermansRGeniuses (Mar 8, 2004)

> I really, really like German aircraft~ What can I say?


me too! (wait, why does that seem obvious???  )


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## Andrew (Mar 8, 2004)

My favourite arircraft are 
Spitfire all Marks
Mosquito all Marks
Lancaster all Marks
Mustang Merlin Engine 
Hurricane all marks


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 8, 2004)

> Lancaster all Marks



What, all three of them................................


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## kiwimac (Mar 8, 2004)

Re2000 in Hungarian service








kiwimac


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 8, 2004)

i like planes from all countries, for instance:

britain - hurricane
germany - bf-109
italy - p-108
japan - zero
america - corsair
france - ok well maybe ill skip that one


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## GermansRGeniuses (Mar 9, 2004)

wheres russia? or brazil? (brazil didnt make any i just felt like doing that cuz its my country, but they did use P-47's)


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## kiwimac (Mar 9, 2004)

NZ had P-40's and F4u's

Kiwimac


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 9, 2004)

kiwimac said:


> NZ had P-40's and F4u's
> 
> Kiwimac



Kiwi, did New Zealand ever use Commonwealth Boomerangs?


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## GermansRGeniuses (Mar 10, 2004)

i know i did 8)  (now ive just gone and confused myself) btw what does right ol' tea leaf mean? is it postive or negative?

Reichsmarschall Batista


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## aussie jim (Mar 10, 2004)

Me109 through to the BF series ..always been my favourite the 109s.

FW 190 d9

Hurricane

Tempest/Sea Fury..cant decide  

Mosquito

....arGHHHHHHHHH!! i cant fit any more in ..and theres soooooo many good ones


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 10, 2004)

right ol' tea leaf means hes a theif  and oh crap i forgot bout russia


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 10, 2004)

well its's a big place, i don't see how you can forget it?


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## kiwimac (Mar 10, 2004)

Whaler,

I don't think so. While Aussie was using the Boomerang, we were refurbishing the P-40's the yanks had discarded as unusable and flying em

FVS Kiwimac


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 11, 2004)

kiwimac said:


> Whaler,
> 
> I don't think so. While Aussie was using the Boomerang, we were refurbishing the P-40's the yanks had discarded as unusable and flying em
> 
> FVS Kiwimac



Sounds like you NZers would have been better off with Boomerangs!


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 26, 2004)

bronzewhaler82 said:


> It changes all the time  but currently its:
> 
> 1) Gloster Gladiator
> 2) Mitsubishi F1M 'Pete'
> ...


I'd like to edit my five fav planes list...

1) DH Mosquito
2) A6M 'Zero' 
3) Gloster Gladiator
4) Grumman wildcat
5) Vickers Wellington


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 26, 2004)

> 4) Gloster Gladiator



traitor, the gladiator rules


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 27, 2004)

Oooh Traitor - harsh  

I've always been a fan of the Gladiator - i've got books on the subject - i've seen a good few of them - i know all about their history - but as a result you get a bit bored of them and want to move onto other planes (thats how you learn) but don't worry - along with my other favs the Gladiator will always be special to me and i will fiercely defend it against enemies of it! *cough* Kiwi! cough* 8)

besides...what happened to your picture of the P-108 and why have you got that flying corpse as a siggy image??


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 28, 2004)

1) Avro 683 Lancaster
2) DH Mosquito
3) Hawker Hurricane
4) Glostor Meteor
5) FW-190A


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## kiwimac (Mar 28, 2004)

Actually we improved the p-40's left behind!

Though you're probably right the Boomerang would have been better!

As for the Gladiator, I prefer the CR 42! <smiles>

Kiwimac


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## Hugh Janus (Mar 30, 2004)

1. Avro Anson
2. Messerschmitt me-410
3. yak-3
4. fairey Gannet
5. junkers ju-86

and whats with everyones love of the spitfire? more like SHITfire


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## Gemhorse (Mar 30, 2004)

Well, I'm totally obsessed with the DH98 Mosquito and Hornet, but I do love Spitfire Mk.XIV, Hawker Typhoon / Tempest [ An ancestor died flying Typhoons, but the Tempest was grunty and Kiwis made a name flying 'em... ] and in German aircraft....short-nose Fw190's, Ju88's and He219. [ SEE GermansareGeniuses, He219's are loved...!!.] - I guess that's more than 5, but roughly in that order.....


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## Gemhorse (Mar 30, 2004)

If anyone's read the book ' Faith, Hope Charity' [ by Kenneth Poolman], when Malta was invaded by the Italian Air Force, 3 Gladiators held them off until the reinforcements arrived - CR42's in force couldn't sort-out 3 l'il Gladiators..... Also, we Kiwis didn't need Boomerangs; - as stated , we had P40's and also Corsairs, and brought P51D's at War's end for our Territorial Forces...there wasn't any available till then.


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 30, 2004)

I've told Kiwi lots of times that the Gladiator was better than the Cr.42 but he won't listen!   

Hey C.C - shes back on the top  

1) Gloster Gladiator 
2) DH Mosquito
3) A6M 'Zero'
4) Grumman Wildcat
5) Vickers Wellington


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 31, 2004)

yay  heres my updated list:

1. Piaggio P.108
2. Hawker Hurricane
3. Messerschmitt BF-109
4. Fiat CR.42
5. Vickers Windsor

sorry the gladiator isnt there but im more of a fan of italian planes 8)


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 31, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> yay  heres my updated list:
> 
> 1. Piaggio P.108
> 2. Hawker Hurricane
> ...



Cr.42??


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## Crazy (Mar 31, 2004)

I prefer the Cr.42 myself, although the Gloster Gladiator was the better plane


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## kiwimac (Apr 1, 2004)

Actually a British Test pilot who flew both the CR 42 and the Gladiator much preferred the CR 42. The problem with the CR 42 was its armament.
nothing else.

Kiwimac


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## plan_D (Apr 1, 2004)

1. Spitfire Mk. XIV
2. P-38 Lightning
3. C-47 Skytrain 'Dakota' 
4. FW-190
5. Hurricane IV


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 1, 2004)

> 1. Spitfire Mk. XIV
> 2. P-38 Lightning
> 3. C-47 Skytrain 'Dakota'
> 4. FW-190
> 5. Hurricane IV



you have good taste 8) and yup, i prefer the cr.42 cos its italian and it looks better


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 1, 2004)

kiwimac said:


> Actually a British Test pilot who flew both the CR 42 and the Gladiator much preferred the CR 42. The problem with the CR 42 was its armament.
> nothing else.
> 
> Kiwimac



thats just ONE pilot - and besides if he was just a test pilot that means he wouldn't have flown them in combat - ask him the same question after a dogfight...the Italians designed that plane as a pretty-looking work of art...not much more

The Gladiator might not have looked as pretty but i'd rather be sitting in one during a dogfight.... 8)


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 1, 2004)

i wouldnt  id rather be in a polikarpov I-16, just fly straight through it


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 1, 2004)

I meant if i had a choice between the Cr.42 and the Gladiator you cheeky bugger!


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 1, 2004)

i know, ok then, i propose a new notion, a russian biplane


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 3, 2004)

The Polikarpov I-153 was a Russian Biplane and a pretty good one at that - Kiwi will tell you all about it...hes a bit of a fan 8)


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 3, 2004)

yes kiwi, tell all


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 3, 2004)

well, i'm guessing it had two wings and some guns.....................


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 3, 2004)

probably had an engine too 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 3, 2004)

ohhhhhhhhhh, i dunno, that's allot to ask from the germans....................


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 4, 2004)

thats cheap considering many of their planes were the highest flying and the the war


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 6, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> ohhhhhhhhhh, i dunno, that's allot to ask from the germans....................



we're talking about the I-153 Lanc a russian plane...comeon mate - if you're going to spam at least do it accurately 8)


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 6, 2004)

its cos he cant ever be bothered to go on the previous page to see whats going on


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 10, 2004)

nor can you.....................


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 16, 2004)

i can actually 8)

anyway, heres my updatd list 8)

1. Piaggio P.108
2. Messerschmitt Bf-109
3. Short Stirling
4. Hawker Hurricane
5. Short Sunderland


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 16, 2004)

the stirling was crap................


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 17, 2004)

i never said it was good


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 17, 2004)

why do you like it?


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 18, 2004)

dunno, just do  cos no-one ever talks about it and it looks cool 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 19, 2004)

I'll admit it looked cool, it was a crap bomber...............


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 19, 2004)

yes it does look cool 8) 3rd coolest looking bomber ever IMO


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 19, 2004)

i think you're gonna put the P-108 1st, but what are you putting second................


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 19, 2004)

the he-111 8)


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## brad (Apr 19, 2004)

1.LANCASTER
2.METEOR 
3.ME262
4.MOSCITO
5.SPITFIRE


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 19, 2004)

hmmm, pretty good choices, nowt wrong with any of those 8)


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 19, 2004)

other than the fact that Mosquito is spelled wrong and that the Me262 isnt number one (cough, cough, lancaster sucks, cough, cough, it doesnt deserve to be on there, cough, cough)


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 20, 2004)

wow, thats a hell of a cough you got there 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 21, 2004)

there's nothing wrong with your list Brad, just ignore them................


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 21, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> wow, thats a hell of a cough you got there 8)


 gotta take me ricola, im surprised this is happening since i dont have asthma....


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## Gemhorse (Apr 22, 2004)

Yeah Brad, four British and one German, really good choices, although I'd have the Mosquito at the top...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 22, 2004)

na, mossie second, after the lancaster...............


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## Gemhorse (Apr 22, 2004)

I won't argue about that, they are both superb aircraft...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 23, 2004)

i must say i do have a tendency towards bombers...........


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## Gemhorse (Apr 24, 2004)

A bit of both , light and fast....and wooden


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 24, 2004)

that's why the mossie is my second fave................


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## TimT1 (Apr 24, 2004)

Here's my top five list:

1) F-4U Corsair 
2) P-38 Lightning
3) P-51 Mustang
4) F-4F Wildcat
5) P-47 Thunderbolt


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## Samu (Apr 24, 2004)

Let me think..... you are american?


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## Gemhorse (Apr 24, 2004)

I really have to read-up more on Corsairs, they seem very popular...I know our chaps flew them down here, and we've had one flying at '' Wings over Wanaka'' Airshow recently. - I read somewhere that they were very quick at Air Racing, post War, too. - Also, I'm chuffed Mossies are your 2nd choice, Lanc....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 25, 2004)

it was a great bomber.................


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## TimT1 (Apr 25, 2004)

Yep, how did you guess?  Seriously though, I think fighters of other countries are cool also. If this was a top 10 fighters list, I would include the Spitfire, Hurricane, Shiden, FW-190, and Typhoon, but all WWII fighters are cool in some way


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 26, 2004)

i wouldn't say all of them were cool..............


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## brad (Apr 26, 2004)

take out the typhoon and they are ok


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 26, 2004)

hey hey hey, leave the tiffy alone, that was very cool 8)


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## brad (Apr 26, 2004)

never heard of the shiden but sierusly take out the fw190 and put back the typhoon


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 26, 2004)

the shiden was one hell of a fighter, one of, if not, the best in the pacific theaeter..................

(sorry, can't spell)


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## brad (Apr 26, 2004)

hey dont worry about the spelling i do it my self and sos about the shiden


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 26, 2004)

i could do a Sudden_strike here and shout at you, but i won't it was sort of like the P-47, but with better performane than any of the fighters in the pacific................


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## Gemhorse (Apr 26, 2004)

The Typhoon did a terrific job at a tough time in the War, it's firepower not unlike the Mosquito - With it's teething-troubles and being a real handful to fly, it has earned it's Place in History. - As for Japanese aircraft, the Allies later Pacific fighters creamed anything they had, and lack of numbers and quality forced them to use Kamikazi tactics - That was a contributing factor to the use of A-Bombs, as the Invasion of Japan's Homeland drew closer...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 27, 2004)

Shiden is nothing like P-47 and Tiffy was an interceptor that failed so it shouldnt be on any "Best Fighters" list but the Fw-190 should be as it was one of the best fighters indeed. Another thing that should be noted about the P-47 and Shinden is that the Shinden was built to face the bombers over Japan as the Me-262 was used against B-24's and B-17's while the
P-47 was just an escort to said bombers and one more thing, this was said in another topic, but as im on the subject, ill post it anyway. 
The Me-262's height deficiency was not much of a problem as it went as high and higher than the hordes of bombers, higher wasnt needed. And when and if the B-29 was to be used, the Germans had a remedy (two actually), the Ta-183 with a high-alt engine and guided missles plus Mk-108s, so obviously B-29's wouldnt be much of a prob other than their numbers.


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## plan_D (Apr 27, 2004)

Yes, the Ta-183, stick a 'Nene' engine in it, move the tail plane down and you have a Mig-15 which just obliterated the B-29s in Korea.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 27, 2004)

germans, you're mistaking the SHIDEN for the SHINDEN, don't we said the shiden, which is a comply different plane...............



> the Allies later Pacific fighters creamed anything they had



not true, the japs had some pretty good fighters towards the end of the war, just that they weren't in substantial numbers.........


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 27, 2004)

like many of the great planes of the war, too late though 8)


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## Crazy (Apr 27, 2004)

*Kawanishi N1K1 Shiden*

*Allied Code Name*: George
*Design Bureau*: Kawanishi Kokuki K.K.
*Manufacturer*: Kawanishi Kokuki K.K.
*Type*: land-based interceptor fighter
*Crew*: one
*Engine*: one Nakajima NK9H Homare 21 eighteen-cylinder air-cooled radial engine, rated at 1,990 hp
*Max speed*: 363 mph at 19,355 feet
*Max range*: 1,581 miles
*Service Ceiling*: 41,010 feet
*Dimensions*: wingspan 39 feet, 4.5 inches; length 29 feet, 2 inches; height 13 feet, 4 inches
*Weight*: empty 6,387 lbs; loaded 8,598 lbs; maximum 9,526 lbs
*Armament*: two 7.7-mm Type 97 machine-guns mounted in fuselage; two 20-mm Type 99 Model 2 cannons mounted in wings; two 20-mm Type 99 Model 2 cannons mounted in gondolas under wings; up to 264 lbs of bombs


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 27, 2004)

you see what i mean when i say it looks like a P-47..........


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## Crazy (Apr 27, 2004)

*Thunderbolt*





*Shiden*






Yeah, I suppose it kinda does


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 28, 2004)

Crazy said:


> *Kawanishi N1K1 Shiden*
> 
> *Allied Code Name*: George
> *Design Bureau*: Kawanishi Kokuki K.K.
> ...


i know its manoverable as all Jap fighters are, but me on steroids can hold more weight!!!! 264lb??? WEAK/BOLLOCKS (and not the dog's  )/SHITE!!! i know it aint a JaBo (Jagerbomber) but c'mon!!!! and it aint too fast either! anyways, shouldnt we compare the P-47N to the N1K2 Shiden as those were the best versions?


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 28, 2004)

plan_D said:


> Yes, the Ta-183, stick a 'Nene' engine in it, move the tail plane down and you have a Mig-15 which just obliterated the B-29s in Korea.


 Mig-15:copy of the "Huckebein" which was made via captured blue prints. Some weird Argentinan fighter made post-war by the Argentinan airforce (which itself was started by Galland post-war) of which the name i cant remember:THE Ta-183 with some minor changes and (  ) no X-4's or anything like that...

anyway, the Superfortress didn't do that bad for a sitting duck, its tail gunners were the highest scoring aerial planes/guns/men of the war after the F-86 Sabre


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## plan_D (Apr 28, 2004)

The B-29 was still made obselete, but the Mig-15 would have been nothing if it didn't have the 'Nene' engine in it. Good 'ole British engines. Kurt Tank designed the Argentinian one, it was called the 'Argentine I.Ae 33 Pulqui II'.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 28, 2004)

> i know its manoverable as all Jap fighters are, but me on steroids can hold more weight!!!! 264lb??? WEAK/BOLLOCKS (and not the dog's )/SHITE!!! i know it aint a JaBo (Jagerbomber) but c'mon!!!! and it aint too fast either!



it didn't need to carry bombs, what's in gonna bomb? and it was faster than any allied fighter in the pacific.................


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 28, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> > i know its manoverable as all Jap fighters are, but me on steroids can hold more weight!!!! 264lb??? WEAK/BOLLOCKS (and not the dog's )/SHITE!!! i know it aint a JaBo (Jagerbomber) but c'mon!!!! and it aint too fast either!
> 
> 
> 
> it didn't need to carry bombs, what's in gonna bomb? and it was faster than any allied fighter in the pacific.................


 lanc, please get your facts straight and think logically. if the yanks were closing in, theyre gonna have positions and other things to bomb!!! and about it being faster, thats bull pure and simple. the Hellcat and its immenseness went 376mph v 361mph. All P-47's, 400+mph v 361mph corsair 400+ mph for all models v 361mph P-61B (!!!!!) Black Widow, 369mph v 361mph B-29 (    ) with light bomb load, 370mph!!!!!!!! the list goes on and on....


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 29, 2004)

planes of the p-61's shape and size were actually quite manoeverable for what they were 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 29, 2004)

they were only manouverable with the flaps down (that was one advantage of these planes, they could extend their flaps at high speeds), and then they were only just respectible, i would never say they were that manouverable.....................


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## brad (Apr 29, 2004)

i like frank
the plane its jappnese can you worke it out


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## Anonymous (Apr 29, 2004)

My favourites are (in any order)

Martin B-26G Marauder
Fokker G-1
Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien
Macchi MC-202 Folgore
NA P-51C malcolm hood/P-51D


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## Crazy (Apr 29, 2004)

The Black Widow was the first to employ spoilerons, I believe. Spoilerons were used as such: 

When the elevators were moved up, both ailerons would move up also, creating the effect of flaps without making it neccesary to 
deploy the regular flaps


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## Gemhorse (Apr 29, 2004)

You forgot the P-38, whose firepower was formidable and it was particuarly better at high-altitude, their service in the Pacific, [once they got their tactics worked-out], most successful - they did in fact have a whistling-sound, different again from the Beaufighters.- I always thought the Kawasaki Hien [Tony] was probably the most effective Jap fighter, but if they had all these 'great' aircraft, they must have squandered them, as the remnants were used for Kamikazi attacks, on anything from B-29's to boatloads of marines...That's how they ended-up ...in desperation...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 29, 2004)

G-1Reaper said:


> My favourites are (in any order)
> 
> Martin B-26G Marauder
> Fokker G-1
> ...



Go Holland!!! G-1 ROCKS!!! (I'm Hollandisch too, but i dont speak it yet, I'm gonna learn it when im done with Deutsch)


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## Lightning Guy (Apr 30, 2004)

I'll list a favorite aircraft from 5 major combatants.

1) P-38 Lightning

2) Spitfire 

3) Fw-190

4) Ki-84 Frank

5) La-7


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 1, 2004)

I can only come up with 4 favourite planes at the moment, here goes;

1) Avro 683 Lancaster
2) De Havilland DH.98 Mosquito
3) Glostor Meteor F.3
4) Hawker Hurricane Mk.II

I need to think about the 5th...............


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## cheddar cheese (May 1, 2004)

my new list:

1. Messerschmit Bf-109
2. Piaggio P.108
3. Hawker Hurricane
4. Breda 88
5. Lockheed P-38 Lightning


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 2, 2004)

you mean you like the 109 more than the P.108??? why the sudden change...............


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## cheddar cheese (May 2, 2004)

ive always loved the 109, it probably wont be there for long though 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 2, 2004)

what, wil the 108 over take it, or annother plane?............


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## cheddar cheese (May 2, 2004)

ill probably get bored of the 109 sooner or later 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 2, 2004)

like you did with the P.108................


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## brad (May 2, 2004)

spit should be at the top


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## kiwimac (May 2, 2004)

Add Me 264 to my list!

Kiwimac


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 2, 2004)

> spit should be at the top



no it shouldn't, as good as it was, it was often overrated and wasn't as good as the lancaster................


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## brad (May 3, 2004)

true but it should be at the top of his list


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## plan_D (May 3, 2004)

How can you compare a bomber to a fighter? 

My list is: 1. Hurricane Mk. IV
2. Li-2 
3. Spitfire Mk XIV
4. B-24
5. Me 262


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## cheddar cheese (May 3, 2004)

> true but it should be at the top of his list



no it shouldnt, i dont like the spit 8)


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## brad (May 3, 2004)

spit rules


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## cheddar cheese (May 3, 2004)

wish my mother agreed with that, she gets annoyed when i gob everywhere


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 3, 2004)

> How can you compare a bomber to a fighter?



quite easily, the lancaster was better as it had a bigger payload................


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## cheddar cheese (May 3, 2004)

ah, but that makes the spit better as it was faster and had a higher ceiling 8) and it looked better, and i bet spitfires shot down more planes than lancasters


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## Maestro (May 3, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> quite easily, the lancaster was better as it had a bigger payload................



I don't want to insult you, Lanc, but I can't immagine a bomber trying to evade a squadron of Messerschmitt Bf-109 or Focke-Wulf FW-190.

What would do a bomber against those planes without a fighter squadron to take on the enemy fighters ?

Here are my choices:

1. Spitfire Mk. IX (I know what you'll say: "Why the Mk. IX instead of the Mk. XIV ?" Well, I don't know. I love it, that's all. 8) )
2. Spitfire Mk. XIV
3. Hurricane (Any Mark.)
4. Mustang III
5. Tempest V


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## plan_D (May 4, 2004)

Yes, that is what I say...still good list. 

The Spitfire could do more of a variety of jobs than the Lancaster as well. It's stupid comparing anyway.


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## cheddar cheese (May 4, 2004)

yes, the tempest would make a good escort 8) would probably be the most likely of those to be used as an escort and the spits and hurricanes didnt have to rage to get to berlin back 8)


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## cheddar cheese (May 4, 2004)

yes, the tempest would make a good escort 8) would probably be the most likely of those to be used as an escort and the spits and hurricanes didnt have the range to get to berlin back 8)


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## Maestro (May 4, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> yes, the tempest would make a good escort 8) would probably be the most likely of those to be used as an escort and the spits and hurricanes didnt have the range to get to berlin back 8)



No, the Spitfire Mk. IX didn't had the range to get to Berlin and back. But they were able to escort them from Tangmere / Hawkinge to a target near Orléan and back. It was very usefull during the Operation Overlord.

And it was not bad... The Spitfire Mk. IX was the army plane that had the "longer life". It served as a fighter-bomber from 1942 to 1945 and after the war, when the first jets took the place, it served as a recon plane in the "decolonisation wars".


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## plan_D (May 5, 2004)

And the Spitfire Mk. XIV was the best dogfighter of the war.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 5, 2004)

> yes, the tempest would make a good escort would probably be the most likely of those to be used as an escort and the spits and hurricanes didnt have the range to get to berlin back



did you realise the 'stang was on that list, i think they make the best escorts, and the tiffy had a poor ceiling, it wouldn't really be able to fight above 10-15,000ft, which aint a good thing............


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## plan_D (May 5, 2004)

The Mustang was the best escort aircraft of the war.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 5, 2004)

i'm sure lightening guy wouldn't agree............

i would however............


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## plan_D (May 5, 2004)

I don't think me and the Lightning guy agree on much.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 5, 2004)

very few people ever do agree with you, no offence.......

and i'm still looking for a 5th plane for my list..............


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## plan_D (May 5, 2004)

I add depth to the site...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 5, 2004)

depth of death?

any ideas for the 5th plane?

and if you say the B-17 you're a dead man.............


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## plan_D (May 5, 2004)

Spitfire Mk. XIV...


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## Lightning Guy (May 5, 2004)

The Mustang was an excellent escort, I'm not sure it was better than the P-38 and the Lightning was the better plane overall. 

How about the P-38 for the 5th spot? People may argue this but I believe the P-38 was just as versatile as the Mosquito and the Ju-88.


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## plan_D (May 5, 2004)

Yes, I would argue that.


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## brad (May 6, 2004)

ha ha very funny but it was a great war plane and the spit should be at the top


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## Gemhorse (May 6, 2004)

I agree that the Mustang was the best escort fighter, and I would say 'all-rounder', as it's long service history and availability today even, testifies...But there wasn't quite an aircraft whose adaptability, realiability, range, ordinanace firepower, theatre of operation and popularity [even post-war] than the De Havilland Mosquito...-Look at what was kept-on post-war...Mustangs, Mosquitos, Spitfires, Tempests [ the Sea Fury was going for years...] - The P-38's were largely scrapped, along with many other American types; the later model Spitfires were around for awhile, and although the Mosquitos weren't really built to last, they were gobbled-up smartly post-war. They were a Unique wooden-creation whose impact came in the War, at a time where nothing else could fill that Gap quite as well as what the Mossie did - The Germans even tried to copy it, combat it, emulate it, and they couldn't ! - De Havilland couldn't make enough of them !...For me, they're No.1. - No.2, Spitfire XIV, - No.3, Mustang, - No.4, Tempest, - No.5, Lancaster....


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## plan_D (May 6, 2004)

Nice.


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## Gemhorse (May 6, 2004)

Mosquitos ruled....


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## Lightning Guy (May 6, 2004)

P-38s were scrapped for economical reasons and the fact that Lockheed was churning out P-80s which were better than eithe the P-38 or the P-51. And why not consider the P-38 one of the most versatile planes of the war? Escort fighter, interceptor, dive-bomber, level-bomber, skip-bomber, ground attack, tank buster, night fighter, fast ambulance, photo recon, and it was even successfully tested as a torpedo-bomber (the USAAF wasn't interested). That's a pretty impressive list. And I've really got to find some more Americans to get on this.


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## Gemhorse (May 6, 2004)

Hey, don't get me wrong, I think the P-38 was a terrific aircraft ! - It was sad it was scrapped for those reasons, they would be enjoying the popularity today that the Mustang has...I consider them as a favourite too, but my heart has ALWAYS been for Mosquitos and the thoughtful economy to create a wooden aircraft in such time of other Material shortages...


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## Lightning Guy (May 6, 2004)

There can be no doubt that the Mosquito was an excellent plane, extremely versatile, futuristic (in the sense of a no-gun bomber), and a great performer.


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## cheddar cheese (May 6, 2004)

i think the p-38 is often overlooked in this category, it was a great plane 8)


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## plan_D (May 6, 2004)

Yes, there is no denying that the P-38 was a great plane. I still think it was under-armed when it comes to guns, especially as a ground attack plane. Although I know they did carry rockets and bombs, I made a great model of one with rockets.


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## cheddar cheese (May 6, 2004)

> I made a great model of one with rockets



nice to see that your modest


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## plan_D (May 6, 2004)

Well I was proud of it, it was great.  

Not so great now though, it got destroyed bit by bit over the years by certain members of my family. A terrible thing, envy.


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## cheddar cheese (May 6, 2004)




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## Lightning Guy (May 6, 2004)

The 4 .50cals and 1 20mm of the P-38 made for a greater weight of fire than the P-51. And the Lightning guns didn't converge. On the P-38, you had all of it's fire power hitting in an area of about 3 square feet out to their maximum range. 

Lockheed did test a couple of alternate arangements. One had 2 20mm plus the 4 .50cals and the other had 8 .50cals all in the nose! The later was specifically designed for strafing but field experience showed that the basic Lightning was doing just fine as a ground attacker.


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## plan_D (May 6, 2004)

It was a good ground attack aircraft, no one can deny that but it wasn't really powerful enough in my eyes. Anyway, I was talking about it compared to the Mosquito not Mustang. 
The original P-38 had a 37mm cannon, correct? Why was that removed, do you know?


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## Lightning Guy (May 6, 2004)

My point was that the P-38 probably had the best armament package of any American fighter. Early American 37mm guns weren't very good, low muzzle velocity (2,000fpm), low range, and low rate of fire (135rpm). Plus with the larger gun and ammo there was only enough room for 15rds (vs. 150 for the 20mm). The P-39s sent over to the Brits quickly had their 37mm guns replaced by 20mm weapons because the 20mm was much better for air-to-air work.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 7, 2004)

the 20mm was the only truely successful brittish Air to Air cannon, if you were gonna put a cannon in a brittish plane, is was the 20mm, nothing else would even have been considered............


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## plan_D (May 7, 2004)

Well a 37mm cannon is stupid for air to air, it hasn't enough ammo and the recoil is stupidly high. The 30mm on the Swallow were acceptable because it was a jet, it was a little more stable when firing.


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## Lightning Guy (May 7, 2004)

And the 30mm guns on the Me-262 were intended to fire against large, slow bombers. The 30mm guns of the day were not ideal for shooting at fighters (low muzzle velocity, low rate of fire).


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## Gemhorse (May 7, 2004)

Actually, I'm inclined to agree that the P-38 had a pretty formidable armament array. Apparently the L-5 was the best variant, but they were the first true U.S. multi-mission fighters, with excellent range, capable of up to 12-14 hr flights - They could carry up to 4000lb of bombs and/or fuel, and in the last year of the War, delivered napalm strikes. They were also the first fighter to ever have power-assisted ailerons in later models, and their compact .50's+1x20mm were effortless to aim. With 1750hp available, a total of 3400hp, one chap had his left engine shot-out 4hrs into a mission, but took 4hrs 20mins to fly the 850miles back to base on one engine, probably a record then...they were particuarly suited to the Pacific conflict, and really the first Allied plane to gain aerial superiority over the Japs - They even having special bomb-racks fitted to drop ammo, food, water medical supplies to combat-troops. The 'M' nightfighter model was a two seater and IMO really made the P-61 look obsolete as to this role, weighing 5 tons more and being 70mph slower than the Lightning...and lets not forget that the US's top aces, Bong [40 kills] and McGuire [38] flew Lightnings....they were really the next best thing to Mosquitos !!


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## Lightning Guy (May 7, 2004)

All excellent points. I still give the P-38 the edge over the Mosquito, but if we would all be honest I think we are all probably influenced by national bias. Both planes were phenomenally successful and performed whatever mission they were tasked with very successfully. 

Officially, the L model Lightning could carry 4,000lbs of bombs. Some of the Pacific based Lightnings, however, carried loads as heavy as 5200lbs (2 x 2000lbs and 4 x 300lbs) on short range missions. Lightnings in the MTO often carried 6 500lb bombs (equal to a standard load for a medium bomber). Pacific based squadrons flew combat (not ferry missions) of 2300 miles. They were also about the toughest fighter of the war. One P-38 collided with a Bf-109 and flew several hundred miles back to base and I've seen a photo of another that collided with a Halifax bomber and actually landed with a Halifax tailplane inbedded in its wing!


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## plan_D (May 7, 2004)

Mosquito was better..  

The P-38 was a very good plane, and a great fighter. The thing is with those loads it would have flown a lot short missions. The 'official' is its ideal, most aircraft can more than they are said to in weight if you can fit extra racks, or find space it's just that their radius will be reduced greatly. For a start you use more fuel heavier you are, and you won't have as much space for fuel if you carry more.


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## Lightning Guy (May 8, 2004)

Lockheed tests proved that a P-38F could carry a 2,000lb load to a radius of 1,000 miles. And the L model carried 124 more gallons of fuel. And I did mention that those loads were only used on short range missions.


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## plan_D (May 8, 2004)

I was just putting it across with more conviction.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 8, 2004)

i think the combat record of the mossie is better than the P-38..............


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## brad (May 8, 2004)

Gemhorse said:


> Mosquitos ruled....


 not not not not not :fist: :fist: :fist:


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## Lightning Guy (May 8, 2004)

How are we defining combat record? The Mossie dropped more bombs, the P-38 shot down more planes. Seems like this might be a little "apples to oranges" here.


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## Gemhorse (May 9, 2004)

Before we all get carried away, MY personal LOVE has always been for the Mossie, but between both aircraft, the only thing they had in common was they were both twin-engined...The P-38 was THE top-scoring fighter in the whole Pacific Theatre, and greatly loved respected by all those who flew worked on them - I'm not gonna sit here and say one or the other was 'better', they were both unique aircraft and similar in that they were both multi-role and both flew in most Theatres of Ops as such...if the Mossie had an advantage it would probably be it had two aircrew, helpful if the pilot was injured, perhaps...but IMO they both represented the best of what was put into combat at the time, by the two nations - As I've said, the Mossie was unique because it was wooden - I do think it's particuarly sad to view pics of the huge piles of Lightnings put to the torch, postwar, along with so many other fine aircraft...others were melted down into ingots, but it was a deplorable waste nonetheless - [They've just finished with the Phantom, and I believe they should've made more available to responsible collectors/museums, than they have...]- I've just finished a book on the PTO, and reading of the enormous wastage kinda galls me...We're now left with expensive recovery operations like 'the Glacier Girl', a P-38 dug up from under tons of ice up around the Arctic, and restored, which is a bloody shame for all those that were just trashed - While jet-engined aircraft became the 'in-thing', piston-engined aircraft had reached the peak of development by 1945, driven by the War, not just Allied but also some Axis aircraft, and altho' it may appear I'm 'crying over spilt milk', piston-engines are still with us in quantity today, just not enough of those 'thoroughbreds' we made during the War...I've even joined a Museum here that's got a couple of Mosquitos that need restoring, purely just to be involved somehow, to honour the ingenuity born of wartime desperation that inspired such amazing creations...Those years of War were truly a technological marvel on All sides, which our generations have been the beneficiaries of...Lightnings Mosquitos, they were both special aircraft...if I said 'Mossies ruled,' that's just my personal affection for them; Lightnings were a 'Cadillac' to fly apparently and I respect the success they were for the Americans...


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## plan_D (May 9, 2004)

Warfare, the creator of science and technology. Well said Gemhorse, I have to say I perfer the Mosquito over the P-38 as well. Their combat records were both great feats, it's not really sensible to argue which is superior but it's always interesting


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 9, 2004)

i would pick a mossie for a low-level bombign raid...........


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## plan_D (May 9, 2004)

Amiens was one of the best examples of Mosquito brilliance.


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## Lightning Guy (May 10, 2004)

I would agree with that but I would pick the P-38 if I had to fly a long-range escort mission. I think I mentioned somehwere on here about this discussion centering around national bias and that may well be the case. By the way, Gemhorse's post was probably the most eloquent I have seen on this site. Very well said.


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## cheddar cheese (May 10, 2004)

well, im not affected by national bias, i prefer the P-38 as well 8)


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## plan_D (May 10, 2004)

C.C if Lightning Guy wasn't here you'd be on the Mosquito, always the easy option.


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## cheddar cheese (May 10, 2004)

no i wouldnt, ive ALWAYS preferred the p-38, ive never really like the mossie


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## brad (May 10, 2004)

myne changed it is know 
1 meteor 
2 lanc 
3 spit 
4 262
5 zero


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## cheddar cheese (May 10, 2004)

mine's as follows:

1. P.108
2. Bf-109
3. MC. 205
4. P-38
5. P-47

8)


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## brad (May 10, 2004)

cccccccccccccoooooooooooooooolllllllllllllllllllllll


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## cheddar cheese (May 10, 2004)

i know, and not a british plane among 'em


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 10, 2004)

since when did you like the MC. 205, you never talk about it.....................


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## cheddar cheese (May 10, 2004)

it looks sweet and ive learnt its a pretty decent plane


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 10, 2004)

when, i've never even heard you mention it once.................


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## cheddar cheese (May 10, 2004)

just cos i dont talk about it doesnt mean i dont know about it, ive done some research about it off the site 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 10, 2004)

i hope you don't mean from TG planes..................


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## cheddar cheese (May 10, 2004)

nope, tg planes is a foolish website with much false information


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## plan_D (May 10, 2004)

The Lightning was a good plane, but for Britain, as Britain was building it (And Canada, I know) the Mosquito was better because it took less work and it was cheaper. And it was still brilliant. 

So my list is:

1) Spitfire Mk XIV
2) DH Mosquito
3) B-24 
4) Me-262 'Swallow'
5) FW-190

Not an Italian plane among them...


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## cheddar cheese (May 11, 2004)

that was just cheap


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 11, 2004)

i'm still looking for a 5th favourite plane anyone.............

p.s., as encouragment, if i don't find one soon, i'm gonna use the stuka!!!


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## cheddar cheese (May 11, 2004)

how about the IL-2


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 11, 2004)

na, it was good but not for me............


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## cheddar cheese (May 11, 2004)

ok then... hows about the... erm... Tiffy?


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## Lightning Guy (May 11, 2004)

I still say the Lightning. It had all the multi-role vesatility you guys love so much.


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## cheddar cheese (May 11, 2004)

yup, the lightning has constantly been in my top 5 for a while 8)


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## plan_D (May 11, 2004)

Spitfire Mk XIV


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## Maestro (May 11, 2004)

I agree with Plan_D.

The Spitfire Mk. XIV would be a good choice.


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## Gemhorse (May 11, 2004)

The Spitfire was the only aircraft that was effectively able to dogfight the Zero...the American aircraft were excellent aircraft, using from the P.40 on, a 'dive slash' technique, having greater altitude ability...Zeros were extremely nimble, and deadly to dogfight, as were their other good models, but the Spitfire, mostly the Mk.VIII tackled them, and also the later Marks as they came on line later in the War...The Mk.XIV is my favourite too...they called it ' the engine with wings '....


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## Lightning Guy (May 11, 2004)

Mk. XIV was a good plane. But the American planes were more than capable of dogfighting the Zero at high speed. And the great Lightning aces in the Pacific managed to shoot down several Japanese planes in turning dogfights.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 12, 2004)

what about the wimpy?


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## plan_D (May 12, 2004)

It's your list. The Spitfire Mk XIV was the best dogfighter of the war.


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## Lightning Guy (May 12, 2004)

It's your list. Do what you want to with it.


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## Maestro (May 12, 2004)

Gemhorse said:


> Zeros were extremely nimble, and deadly to dogfight, as were their other good models, but the Spitfire, mostly the Mk.VIII tackled them, and also the later Marks as they came on line later in the War...



I know a funny fact about the Mk. VIII (I've written it in the "Remark" section of the Spitfire Mk. IX database). It's told as follow:

"The Supermarine Spitfire Mark IX was developped in 1942 to face the new German treath: the FW-190. It may sounds a bit weird, but the Mk. IX was the result of a "manufacturing error". In 1942, the British High Command decided to completely re-draw the Spitfire to finaly create the Mark VIII. But when the production began, they realised that the new frame was taking more time to build than the new engine! Like they were in desperate need of this new craft, they took the old Mark V frame and installed the new engine inside it, creating the Mark IX. After a little while, they realised that the Mk. IX was surpassing the new Mk. VIII. So they almost abandoned the roduction of the Mk. VIII and started the mass production of the Mk. IX. So in a sense, the Mk. VIII was surpassed by the Mk. IX before it could get out of the factory!"

I know, may be you'll call me idiot, but I like the old Mk. IX.


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## Lightning Guy (May 12, 2004)

A lot of pilots thought that the Mk.IX was the "best all-around" Spitfire of the war. I know the latter Mk. XIV had better performance but that was achieved by more power which was starting to take its toll on the Spit's handling.


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## plan_D (May 12, 2004)

Where's your list anyway, Lightning guy?


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## Lightning Guy (May 13, 2004)

I put it on here. I did a top five choosing from different nations.

1. P-38 Lightning
2. Ki-84 Frank
3. Fw-190D-9
4. Spit. XIV
5. La-7

Althought I'm not totally sure on the order. There are very few planes from WWII that I don't feel some sense of affection for so this is tough for me.


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## cheddar cheese (May 13, 2004)

same here, my list is always changing, at the moment its:

1. Hawker Hurricane
2. Piaggio P.108
3. Lockheed P-38 Lightning
4. Messerschmit Bf-109
5. Bell P-39 Airacobra

8)


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## plan_D (May 13, 2004)

So my list is: 

1) Spitfire Mk XIV 
2) DH Mosquito 
3) B-24 
4) Me-262 'Swallow' 
5) FW-190


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 13, 2004)

1) lancaster
2) mossie
3) meteor (better than the 262)
4) hurricane
5) B-29


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## Maestro (May 13, 2004)

Mine never changed.

1. Spitfire Mk. IX
2. Spitfire Mk. XIV
3. Hurricane (any Mark)
4. Mustang III
5. Tempest V

I always loved fighters. 8)


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## cheddar cheese (May 13, 2004)

i like any kind of plane


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## plan_D (May 13, 2004)

Which was the Mustang III again? The cannon armed one?


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## Gemhorse (May 13, 2004)

Yeah, but the technique I've described is HOW they did it, plus the fact that Japan was banking on a short war, and squandered their best-trained pilots too early...After the big sea-battles that cost them so many pilots, the replacements were 'barely' trained, whereas the US had by then a truly awesome flight-training programme that was in full-gear...The point I was trying to make, and it was in no-way disparative of those truly-great US fighters, was simply that the Spits were always very manoevrable,[and Hurricanes], as well as having a better altitude-factor; US fighters were generally heavier, as well as more plentiful by then...In a down out dogfight, one on one, the Spitfires were perhaps the only fighters to be able to successfully engage them...I'm currently reading a US book of the first Kodachrome colour-photos seen of the Pacific War, entitled ' WWII Pacific War Eagles ' which clearly states on page 144, what I've just said, and it's beside a photo of 476 [RAAF] Sqn. Mk. LF VIII's Spitfires, [at Morotai] and it goes on to say ,' they had 1580hp Merlin 66's, a top speed of 404mph and a ceiling of 41,500ft, [which wasn't really needed in SEAC], mentioning particuarly Zeros Oscars, as on even terms, and what ''a valuable commodity'' they were '...C'mon Lightning, are you gonna argue with your OWN authors about it ???!!...As a Commonwealth person, it's exasperating sometimes to have Americans ramming down the throat that they were BEST at every **** thing....If you like, get the book and have a look, and look in particular at the photos where they bulldozed ALL these great US fighters in a heap an TORCHED THEM at war's end....lots of bloody LIGHTNINGS too...[ the book is ISBN 0-9629359-3-X]...Fair go, it's chaps like me that lend abit of EQUITY to this site.....


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## Maestro (May 13, 2004)

plan_D said:


> Which was the Mustang III again? The cannon armed one?



It had two version, Plan_D. The first one was an almost exact copy of the P-51B. (They only replaced the orriginal hood by the Malcom hood.) This one had four Browining machine guns.

The second one (also called Mustang III), had this Malcom hood but they added 20mm cannons. (I don't know exactly how many cannons it had, but I have a picture here and it seems that they replaced the four machine guns by four 20mm cannons.)


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## plan_D (May 14, 2004)

Yes, it had four 20mm cannons. I was just trying to remember, I thought it was the cannon armed one, and I was right.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 14, 2004)

> and I was right.



no need to brag ....................


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## cheddar cheese (May 14, 2004)

thats a bit strong coming from you lanc


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## plan_D (May 14, 2004)

Isn't the FW190D-9 (Dora 9) the Ta152?


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## GermansRGeniuses (May 14, 2004)

no.


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## plan_D (May 14, 2004)

That was a simple answer, how about a little explantion as to what the Dora 9 was. I heard the British called it the 'Long nosed 190'


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## GermansRGeniuses (May 14, 2004)

It was a long nosed 190. The Ta-152 was an advanced model with a Junkers 213 engine with Mw-50 (a type of nitrous gas) and 1,900hp-ish. It had a Mk108 30mm cannon firing through the hub like a Kurfurst-4 and two Mg151/20 20mm cannons, one in each wing root. Other than the new engine, the wing was longer - even longer than the fuselage - for high-alt work. Another change was the pressurization of the cockpit. Although made to be an interceptor, it spent most of its life protecting the Schwalbes during their vulnerable time at t/o and landing along with Fw-190 A's and D's, among other aircraft. As you can probably see, it saw little action in its intended role, so that is why there is little first-hand performance experience such as againt a Mustang or B-17. It was said to handle well and accelerate quickly. Few units received the type, but Jg7, a regular _wunderwaffen_ reciever in my opinion, did. This was hand written and thought up entirely by my 13 year old self whether you want to believe it or not. If you want info on the D-9, just ask.


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## plan_D (May 14, 2004)

Why would I not believe it? You seem to be very good at English, thank you the explanation. Now match it on the Dora 9 explanation, please.


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## GermansRGeniuses (May 14, 2004)

DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm sorry plan_D, but the expalnation will have to come later as I was typing and already had a longer report than on the Ta-152, when i acidentially hit the "preview" button. When I pressed "back" on my browser, as I was using the quick reply window, all the information had been erased!
Oh well, I'll just go fly the D-9 to liven me up ad then you'll get your info. By the way, it wasn't because of the good English in the Ta-152 report (as I like to call it), it was how it was written - like an essay - , how ti seemed like a copy and paste jobby, and how informative it was.


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## plan_D (May 14, 2004)

I didn't think for a second it wasn't yours. Although I had the problem of people thinking that I had copied a certain German Invasion Plan of France and the Lowlands, which I did not. 

That's right, who won that one!?! Now that's bragging.


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## plan_D (May 14, 2004)

Jg7, were they the ones to get the Bf-110 first?


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## Lightning Guy (May 14, 2004)

The Dora-9 was an Fw-190 with its BMW radial exchanged for a Junkers Jumo 213 liquid-cooled engine. This produced the long-nose. A circular radiator was mounted an the front of the engine so that it still had the same of a radial. Armament was 2 20mm in the wing roots and 2 13mm in the cowl. It offered considerably better high altitude performace over the 190A with a top speed of 426 mph at 21,650ft.


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## plan_D (May 14, 2004)

Thanks, remind me though, what was the armament of the FW190A, I know the majority had 2x7.92 on the nose, with 2x20mm in the wing roots and I think I read somewhere some had 2x20mm on the outer wing. I also know some of the FW-190A had 2x13mm instead of 7.92, but since I haven't read about it in ages, I can't remember much. 

I know that British intelligence told the pilots who first saw them that they were captured Mohawks


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## Lightning Guy (May 15, 2004)

The initial 190As had 2 7.62mm in the nose, 2 20mm in the wing roots, and 2 slower firing 20mm in the outerwing. Later versions used 13 mm in the nose. Like most of the German planes, the 190 was subject to a nearly countless number of modifications and a lot of these removed or added to the armament.


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## plan_D (May 15, 2004)

So, I was right, again.


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## GermansRGeniuses (May 15, 2004)

Lightning Guy said:


> The Dora-9 was an Fw-190 with its BMW radial exchanged for a Junkers Jumo 213 liquid-cooled engine. This produced the long-nose. A circular radiator was mounted an the front of the engine so that it still had the same of a radial. Armament was 2 20mm in the wing roots and 2 13mm in the cowl. It offered considerably better high altitude performace over the 190A with a top speed of 426 mph at 21,650ft.


BAH! My description was better! (I have an extra bit NO ONE knows as well... hee-hee-hee)


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## Lightning Guy (May 15, 2004)

I was trying to cut to that chase. I thought I did a good job of providing some basic info on the plane.


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## GermansRGeniuses (May 15, 2004)

Yes, it WAS good. I'm just saying mine would have been better IMNSHO.
Although yours was good, it doesn't have the fact NO ONE except for me knows! (tee-hee-hee)


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## plan_D (May 15, 2004)

I'm sure someone else in the world knows it. So, why the hell does it say in this ancient book I've dug up does it say that the Fw-190D-9 was redesignated the Ta152, is the book crap and unreliable or did that actually happen. AND, was the Jg7 the first group to get the Bf-110?


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## GermansRGeniuses (May 15, 2004)

plan_D said:


> I'm sure someone else in the world knows it. So, why the hell does it say in this ancient book I've dug up does it say that the Fw-190D-9 was redesignated the Ta152, is the book crap and unreliable or did that actually happen. AND, was the Jg7 the first group to get the Bf-110?


 I bet someone IN THE WORLD knows it, but NO ONE on this site. The Jg7 and Bf110 thing is beyond my knowledge and yes, the book is straight crap.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 15, 2004)

the top pic's a good one, and i always thought the dora was ugly..............


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## Lightning Guy (May 15, 2004)

The D-9 wasn't that bad, but the Ta-152 had such a long nose and wings that it began to look comical. I also imagine it must have lost a lot of the dogfighting ability that made the 190 so deadly.


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## brad (May 15, 2004)

i like em all


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## cheddar cheese (May 15, 2004)

and me 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 16, 2004)

but the stats of the 152 are very impressive....................


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## cheddar cheese (May 16, 2004)

extremely 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 16, 2004)

not only are they impressive for a piston engined fighter, that'd be impressive for a jet................


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## cheddar cheese (May 16, 2004)

yup, a higher speed and ceiling than the meteor


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## GermansRGeniuses (May 17, 2004)

well, that's because the Meteor sucked balls unlike the P-80 and '262...


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## Lightning Guy (May 17, 2004)

But the Ta-152 was strickly and interceptor. In a dogfight, the 190s best attribute was its insanely high rate of role and the added span of the 152 must have killed that.


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## GermansRGeniuses (May 17, 2004)

yes, it does. (I say this through virtual experience) It's nothing like the Gustav, Friederich, Kurfurst, and Dora-9 even! It DOES, however, have lotsa lift like the Mustang!


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## Lightning Guy (May 17, 2004)

That's what you get from those extra long wings.


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

That'd be the idea of them. 
So, the Dora-9 was just a different engined 190. Jg7 was the first to get the Bf-110, I got it from a few other sources as well.


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## bader (May 17, 2004)

my 5 fav planes are
De havilland mosquito, Bristol beaufighter, Boeing b17, Hawker typhoon and P51 mustang


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

Some good choices.


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## cheddar cheese (May 17, 2004)

yup nothing wrong with any of those as far as i can see 

looks like you've made a few posts bader, welcome  i hope you sick around as it will be interesting to hear someone else comments on various subjects


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

Yes, yes it will. More interesting than these bums anyway....  Below the belt?


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## cheddar cheese (May 17, 2004)

below the belt? i appear to be unfamiliar with this cliché, would that be the same as stepping over the line?


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

A cheap shot.


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## cheddar cheese (May 17, 2004)

ah 8)


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

Yes, also an illegal blow in boxing, and kickboxing. Don't do it, and don't bite peoples ears off, Tyson I'm looking in your direction...


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## cheddar cheese (May 17, 2004)

mike tyson uses these forums?


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

That'd be funny if he did, I'd have to give him abuse for the whole trying to eat Evander 'Real Deal' Holyfield.


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## cheddar cheese (May 17, 2004)

he'll probably track your IP address and come looking for ya


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

And what talk to me in his really high pitched voice


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## cheddar cheese (May 17, 2004)




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## Lightning Guy (May 17, 2004)

Back to the topic, I don't think you can have bad picks in this forem. Favorite planes are purely a matter of opinion and there is no reason you can't like a sucky plane.


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## cheddar cheese (May 17, 2004)

exactly, ive been through periods of liking the breda 88


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

Now that is just bad.


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## cheddar cheese (May 17, 2004)

i know  i think it looks good though and the badness is the key to its character


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

That's good one.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 17, 2004)

no, it just sucked..............


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

Can't compromise.


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## cheddar cheese (May 17, 2004)

right, you guys are in for it


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## Gemhorse (May 18, 2004)

Bader's choices are very good, especially Mosquito first....true Commonwealth good taste ! - I note with interest that in one of the Ta 152 versions, they were trying-out an engine-mounted Mauser MG 213 cannon, which was remarkable in that it featured interchangeable barrels and rotating chambers, and could be adapted for either 20mm or 30mm ammunition.- They were so keen on them, they had a planned production rate of 4000 by the end of 1945...- Also, out of 150 odd Ta 152H-1's that left the factory in Jan.1945, they in fact operated alongside Fw 190D's and others, -[no special Gruppen] - JG 301 had some, but most were destroyed by strafing. - They also had a Ta 153, another hybrid Fw 190-type, that was to become a 'High-performance Fighter'....- Capt. Eric Brown, the Farnborough Test-pilot, believed that the Ta 152's were possibly the fastest piston-engined Fighter of the War...certainly a credit to German ingenuity....and then was the Ta 154, the 'German Mosquito', potentially another good aircraft that was wasted through inconsistent development and bureaucracy....


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## plan_D (May 18, 2004)

You mean that MG was like a Gatling gun?


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## Lightning Guy (May 18, 2004)

It kinda sounds like it. I've never heard of the Germans developing a gatling-style cannon. I have seen pictures of a gatling-style arrangement for firing off anti-bomber rockets. It would fit in the bombay of the Me-410, carry 6 rockets, and produce little (if any) extra drag.


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## plan_D (May 19, 2004)

I know the Germans had a Gatling Gun on the drawing boards, I didn't know they had built or tested any.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 19, 2004)

i hope it wasn't like the original gattaling guns............


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## Gemhorse (May 20, 2004)

Yeah, it sorta sounds like it could be a 'Gatling' - type affair - I thought GermansRgeniuses might know something about them - My thought was how handy in the Field to have changeable barrels, as they wear-out, but also the easier change of armament...say 20mm for escort-work, or 30mm for ground-attack, or in the case of shortages of one or the other -... Also , along with the 'Fastest-piston-engined Fighter' category, another German contender might be the Do 335 , good for 475 odd mph, and a radical design too...it had promise...


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## plan_D (May 20, 2004)

That would have been a joy for the pilots, trying to crank the Gatling gun to turn it, like the original ones  

The rotary barrel guns would have been deadly, and they were quick to be put in aircraft after the war. So I imagine the Germans were well on their way to having it ready.


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## Erich (May 20, 2004)

Gemhorse, actually the JG 301 Ta's were not destroyed to strafing but left due to lack of fuels. So chaotic was the last days of JG 301 that it sent high ranking personell to secure fuels for its Fw's. the Ta was a high altitidue a/c but never flew in the accoring role agasint the P-51. It remained still a combatitive a/c agsint Tempests and Soviet a/c and did well against them. This from the JG 301 log-buchs, and the Tank still remains as one of my personal favorites. Still await friend Jerry Crandall's JG 301 book for some 12 years but no where finished. Pilot Will Reschke is revising his JG 301/302 book now with new information and photos.............

v/r

E ~ 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 20, 2004)

there's been a change to my 5th favourite plane, it's not the B-29 (what was i thinking), my 5th favourite plane is now the He-111............


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## cheddar cheese (May 20, 2004)

yup, sleek, sexy and a large payload (for a medium bomber)... just like me


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 20, 2004)

i take it your large payload is you rather extreme weight??


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## cheddar cheese (May 20, 2004)

no lanc


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 20, 2004)

go on then what did you mean, and no vulgay smilies Jerk


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## cheddar cheese (May 20, 2004)

whats vulgar about hair?


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## plan_D (May 21, 2004)

C.C that 'large payload' almost being like you would nicely into the new series of 'Shane' if there is one.


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## Lightning Guy (May 21, 2004)

I've been onboard a 111. It was an interesting experience, but I definitely wouldn't have wanted to be in one during war time. Especially in the ventral gunner's position.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 21, 2004)

"do you often pull out as people are coming" ................


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## cheddar cheese (May 21, 2004)

now whos being vulgar


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## Erich (May 21, 2004)

a little something from friend Jerry Crandall............

Ta 152's from the Geschwader stab JG 301. Pilot Willi Reschke flying the top bird with the lower one Grüne 4 of ace Walter Loos.
both pilots scored several Soviet fighters to theri credit during April of 1945.

the painting which is a must have was produced in 1992 and I have # 79 out of 950. Both pilots that I have mentioned have their signatures on the lower part of the painting in pencil. U can view this and other great aviation works of art at :

http://www.eagle-editions.com

E ~


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## Gemhorse (May 22, 2004)

Well, there's a possibility 'Flugwerk', who are making kitset Fw 190's, might be curious to have a crack at building a Ta 152 . Although they are using a different engine in the Fw's to the original...I'm not sure if they're doing a 'Dora', but I think they're trying to make Bf 109's too...It's really good to see the Restoration Movement has also been active in Germany.- I've always thought the Fw/Ta's were exceptional aircraft, out of ALL they built, and the Ju 88's too...- Also, it's really good to hear Will Reschke is still going, as I recall reading about him...and that's an awesome painting you've got there Erich, especially as it's 'signed', a real collector piece - the Ta's look right in their element....


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## plan_D (May 22, 2004)

It is a wonderful painting.


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## Lightning Guy (May 22, 2004)

I've never especially liked the way the long, slender wings looked on the Ta-152. I know they gave it that phenomenal high-altitude performance, I just don't like the way the looked.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 22, 2004)

i've always thought the dora was ugly..............


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## Erich (May 23, 2004)

well you wouldn't think that about the Dora LG if you were flying it and could outrun just about any Allied escort fighter available ! The JG 301 pilots that had the prime opportunity to fly the Tank have all said the speed and turning rate was incredible. 

A small but hard to find volume is the softback Monogram booklet on the fighter with some interesting first hand accounts. I do know as fact that Jerry Crandall has interviewed most of the ex-pilots for his upcoming JG 301 title 

another tidbit, a model of my cousin's Fw 190A-9 for all of ya.......


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## Erich (May 23, 2004)

actually the Dora is quite handsome and did well considering the youthfulness and lack of flying hours of the newere recruits in 1945......
JG 2, JG 26 and JG 301 being most notable.

E ~


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## spiteful21 (May 24, 2004)

Sorry for coming late to this but my top 5 would be:

Hawker Sea Fury
Bristol Brigand
Hawker Hurricane
Focke Wulf Ta 152
De Havilland Hornet / Sea Hornet

Yes I know definate Britaphile


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## cheddar cheese (May 24, 2004)

nice choices, i take it you're into fleet air arm? 8) welcome BTW


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## Lightning Guy (May 24, 2004)

Sea Fury and Hornet were too late for WWII, nevertheless they were among the best piston-engined fighters ever developed.


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## plan_D (May 24, 2004)

I like the look of the Ta152, and all the Fw-190s. They look tough, and ready for anything that is thrown at them. Then again, who cares about looks if you're the one in the air while your opponent is falling to his death...


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## Lightning Guy (May 24, 2004)

I think the Fw-190s all looked very sharp. The wings on the 152 simply seem TOO long to look good to me.


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## Erich (May 24, 2004)

the longer wings ment more high altitude balance. What is odd to me if you have seen overhead profiles is the backward cant of the cocpit. Se where it lies; behind the wings and not over the top of them. I think it is a sleek and beautiful perfomer, and I will it say it again as I have so many other times with air-historians.................i wonder how it would of done in high altitude combat with the P-51D ?

E come to me earthlings !


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## Flying Tiger (May 24, 2004)

1. P-40 Warhawk
2. P-51
3. Spitfire -all models-
4. F4U Corsair
5. B-17


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## Lightning Guy (May 24, 2004)

High altitude I imagine the Ta-152 would have done rather well against a P-51. At medium to low altitudes, I imagine the P-51 would have had a field day as that long span would become a liability.


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## Erich (May 24, 2004)

since the JG 301 ops mention only mid-altitude flying I would say the unit with the TA's was very successful. there was not one Tank brought down by Allied fighters. One was lost during combat due to a faulty supercharger which shut the engine down, the pilot and ace Herr Sattler was killed. The turning radius was fantastic as Willi Reschke points out with his combat victory over a Tempest.

~E


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## Lightning Guy (May 25, 2004)

Knocking down a Tempest doesn't prove much as they were not exactly known for their turning ability. I have always wondered about the Ta 152's rate of roll. From looking at those wings I imagine it must have been relatively poor which is a pity since the 190s had one of the best roll rates of any fighter of the war.


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## plan_D (May 25, 2004)

Most likely it would have been a brilliant performer at any altitude but on high I think nothing would have matched it.


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## cheddar cheese (May 25, 2004)

new list 8)

1. P-38 Lightning
2. Piaggio P.108
3. Hawker Hurricane
4. Messerschmitt Bf-109
5. Ilyushin IL-2 Sturmovik


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## plan_D (May 25, 2004)

Nice list, we've all been seeing your growing love of the P-38. It was a good plane. 

List: 

1) Spitfire Mk XIV
2) Mosquito (In general) 
3) Hurricane MkIIC 
4) Fw-190A-8/R8 
5) Mustang III 

What can I say I like heavy gun loads


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## cheddar cheese (May 25, 2004)

i must say the hurricane seems to be a popular plane.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 25, 2004)

Plan_D, do you prefer the mossie as a fighter, fighter/bomber or bomber??


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## brad (May 25, 2004)

i think that the lists are good


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## cheddar cheese (May 26, 2004)

i prefer it as a smouldering heap in the middle of the runway


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## plan_D (May 26, 2004)

I like it best as a bomber, Operation Jericho is one of the most interesting, and daring raids of the war. C.C the Mosquito was one of the best planes of the war, without it Britain would have not had a suitable medium bomber, or decent recce plane. De Havilland did a great job on that aircraft, cheap and very effective.


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## cheddar cheese (May 26, 2004)

i know it was a great plane, im not saying it wasnt. i just dont like them, i never have and never will, i hate them even more now i like the P-38 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 26, 2004)

not that you love of other aircraft is hindering you view, hey C.C..............


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## cheddar cheese (May 26, 2004)

what?


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## plan_D (May 27, 2004)

I don't get that either, explain that comment Lanc.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 27, 2004)

> i know it was a great plane, im not saying it wasnt. i just dont like them, i never have and never will, i hate them even more now i like the P-38



this to me looks like he only really hates the mossie because he loves the P-38 more.................


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## cheddar cheese (May 27, 2004)

ive always hated the mossie and you know that


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 27, 2004)

you used to like it...............


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## brad (May 27, 2004)

> i prefer it as a smouldering heap in the middle of the runway


hey leave it alwne


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## cheddar cheese (May 27, 2004)

no i didnt lanc. your getting confused with my opinions of planes and how much i like them again. ive said from day one that the mossie was a great plane (however not as great as the P-38  ) but i never liked it.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 28, 2004)

> ive said from day one that the mossie was a great plane (however not as great as the P-38 )



you never used to say the bit about the P-38...................


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## cheddar cheese (May 28, 2004)

i know, because i liked the P-38 but i wasnt sure how good it was and i couldnt be bothered to find out. now however, i DO know more about it and now i DO know it was the better plane.


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## I./JG53_lud13 (May 28, 2004)

Well my list goes like this:

1. Bf 109G-2
2. Bf 109 all other types
3. FW 190D-9
4. Ta 152H
5.Me 110G-4 Nightfighter


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## plan_D (May 28, 2004)

Or you could just put Bf-109 (All Variants) and have another aircraft in there.


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## GermansRGeniuses (May 28, 2004)

Besides, Kurfurst was better than Gustav.


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## plan_D (May 29, 2004)

It certainly was GrG, it certainly was.


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## cheddar cheese (May 29, 2004)

nice to see you back I./JG53_lud13! you aint been on in ages 8)


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## Gemhorse (May 29, 2004)

The Lightning has been your aircraft since the first page CC... it was a truly great fighter, it's unique configuration and performance...Single-seat twin-engined fighters were unusual, the Whirlwind probably the first...the Germans tried it with the Fw 187, which originally was a single-seater,[ but their RLM changed that] - The Lightning was the only major production single-seater twin - ...I know it came too late, but I often wonder how the DH Hornet would have compared....Like the Mosquito, it was made of wood too, which in a time of shortages, was a stroke of genius....I don't think they built them to last all that long, and considering their ability to absorb punishment, or be repairable, they were a powerful, economic, weapon - They made a great aircraft in the Lightning, all-metal, they were a hardy aircraft, and a 'Cadillac' to fly - I think it's a shame they didn't keep more, like the Mustang. - I can't get my head around them being ' better ' than a Mosquito, or a Hornet, but they certainly were a fine and 'rare' aircraft and have earned their legendary status...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 29, 2004)

i'll admit the P-38 was good, because it was, but the mossie was better................


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## cheddar cheese (May 29, 2004)

wasnt


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## brad (May 29, 2004)

> however not as great as the P-38


not mossie was alot better


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 29, 2004)

yeah, listen to Brad, ho knows what he's talking about................


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## cheddar cheese (May 30, 2004)




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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 30, 2004)

i'm sure that if he understood that, he'd take great offence at it............


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## cheddar cheese (May 30, 2004)

hey, he might understand it, and besides, i was only joking


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 30, 2004)

but he won't understand the concept of it being a joke................


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## cheddar cheese (May 30, 2004)

oh well 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 30, 2004)

i say he, but we all no it's emma melia, so should i say she??


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## cheddar cheese (May 30, 2004)

say she to be on the safe side


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 30, 2004)

chances are brad wont find the insult in it anyway...........


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## cheddar cheese (May 30, 2004)

back on topic, might as well revise me list

1. P-38
2. P.108
3. Hurricane
4. MiG-3
5. BI-1


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 30, 2004)

it seems to cange everytime...............


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## cheddar cheese (May 30, 2004)

it does change everytime, whats the point in updating it if youre not gonna change anything?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 30, 2004)

no i mean really change, each time you bring in new aircraft, it completely changes..............


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## cheddar cheese (May 30, 2004)

the first 3 are pretty much fixed, its the bottom 2 that regularly change


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 30, 2004)

but the last time the 109 was in your top 3................


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## plan_D (May 30, 2004)

I have to revise my list; 

1)Spitfire Mk.XIV
2)Mosquito (Any variant)
3)Hurricane IV
4)Fw-190A-8/R8
5)Mustang III


Any particular reasons for the planes in your list C.C? Mainly refering to the last two.


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## cheddar cheese (May 31, 2004)

well, i think the mig-3 looks great and the BI-1 is very interesting


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## Lightning Guy (May 31, 2004)

I don't like the looks of the MiG-3 that much. Nose was too long, cockpit to far back and too cramped.


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## cheddar cheese (May 31, 2004)

i think the long nose and small cockpit look good. reminds me of an jag e-type


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## Lightning Guy (May 31, 2004)

But in a combat plane that means poor visibility for take-off and landing and the cramped cockpit probably made for poor visibility in the air.


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## cheddar cheese (May 31, 2004)

this is about favourite planes though, not about their effectiveness.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 31, 2004)

ok, there's been a change in my list, the current no.4 the hurricane Mk.II had been replaced by the spitfire, any mark exept the V, XIV and XVI.................


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## cheddar cheese (May 31, 2004)

whats wrong with the XIV?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 31, 2004)

i just don't the like the bubble canopie on the spit, it doesn't look right.............


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## cheddar cheese (May 31, 2004)

looks great if you ask me


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 31, 2004)

we we didn't ask you ..................


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