# Gunther Rall vs. Zemke's Wolfpack



## Jank (Aug 24, 2007)

According to the description of the below artwork by John Shaw and from what I have read elsewhere, in 1944, Gunther Rall encountered the 56th FG and was almost shot down.

Does anyone know anything about this encounter? Is it true? What actually happened? Gunther Rall himself has signed a limited edition run of the artwork so I would assume that there is at least a grain of truth to the scene depicted.






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## Erich (Aug 24, 2007)

Jank sure the concept is pretty correct. Ralls a/c nose probably is not right - the spinner should be the normal spiralschnauze of white on black prop colour. Yellow band is correct for JG 11, the II. gruppe he commanded until this incident where he lost a thumb. He was flying a Bf 109G-5 supped up on the May 12, 44 date. air combat over Nassau. 3 other Kameraden from his II. gruppe stab were also hit hard in their G-5's as well, all with P-47's. After Rall went off to recuperate, the Count took over and had a field day against US fighters.

Rall had previously shot down a P-47 at ? hours before this final incident. It was his 275th kill of the war.

I interviewed Rall by letter while he was in the Bayern which is rare and he gave me his acct. where it is buried is beyond me at the moment........as I was more interested as to what he did in JG 300 as Kommodore which in a nutshell was plain nothing, except to move it from field to field


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## Udet (Aug 24, 2007)

I can not believe Rall accepted such painting to become the cover of the book dealing with his life as fighter pilot.

Had i been the Luftwaffe veteran, such a thing would have been simply unacceptable. 

If a picture or painting of me in combat was to be on the cover, then put me scoring a kill, and not getting shot down.


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## Erich (Aug 24, 2007)

he probably thought the painting atmospheric Udet nothing else as there are at least 2-3 other paintings depicting this scene or similiar


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## pbfoot (Aug 24, 2007)

Udet said:


> I can not believe Rall accepted such painting to become the cover of the book dealing with his life as fighter pilot.
> 
> Had i been the Luftwaffe veteran, such a thing would have been simply unacceptable.
> 
> If a picture or painting of me in combat was to be on the cover, then put me scoring a kill, and not getting shot down.


Most pilots that I have met including both aces and experten would say "yep I got lucky there" and smile if he survived that should say enough about his skills


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## Glider (Aug 25, 2007)

pbfoot said:


> Most pilots that I have met including both aces and experten would say "yep I got lucky there" and smile if he survived that should say enough about his skills



I am lucky enough to have a print of Duel of Eagles signed by Bader and Galland. In an interview with Robert Taylor he did say that both pilots had a lot of fun coming up with a composition where both pilots could say, Thats right, he couldn't get me from that position and smiled.


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## Mangrove (Aug 26, 2007)

Virtualpilots - Günther Rall Interview

"Here, I want to tell you one last big, big fight was 12th May 1944. In the morning, I got call from the division commander 15 minutes alert we expect a big bomb raid. Then it was 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 5 minutes, cockpit alert. He said when the forward escort fighters are in this and this area, we start. This was in North Germany. Underneath are two Focke Wulf 190's. I am top cover with about 3000 meters on top with my fighter group against fighters. We went down, we saw the contrails, they came. Near north of Frankfurt we got in contact with a P-47 group. I went down right into the leader. They covered the area always with 4, 4, 4, 4. This was so called Hub Zemke's wolf pack. Hub Zemke was a leader of this American fighter group and he developed this tactics to cover a wide air space with wolf pack. 

I came in and got to the leader of the wolf pack and got his left wing. Flames you know. With this tremendous amount of fuel you get a flame. Then I cut to the right and I was hunted. Then they chased me. I should tell you the numbers. It was 800 4-engine bombers, B-17, B-24. This is a parade of 2 hours. They had cover of 1200 fighters from the Hartz mountains down to Stutgard. Always in 4, 4 or other formations. So it without chance. Anyway, I was chased by P-47. I knew exactly that in a dive P-47 is much faster than 109. And the P-47 has a much higher structural strength. They can go up to 1400 kilometers per hour. The 109, if you go to 1000, pull it up, you risk that the wings come off. So I went down from that, bang, bang, bang. I was chased by what we call line abreast, 4 p-47s. And all that shooting here and all of a sudden bang. The left hand was on the throttle and came off and the thumb was off. Finally, I managed. This was a very traumatic thing, certainly. I pull up, when I was down, to the stalling point. The couldn't follow me because these P-47 wanted to fly back to England. And I want to get rid of my airplane. I don't care for the airplane, I want to get out of this. I managed that. This was very difficult because I was hanging outside. I couldn't operate with this hand, nothing. Finally it worked and I pulled the parachute way down and I came down safely and was hanging on a tree."

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## drgondog (Aug 26, 2007)

Mangrove said:


> Virtualpilots - Günther Rall Interview
> 
> "Here, I want to tell you one last big, big fight was 12th May 1944. In the morning, I got call from the division commander 15 minutes alert we expect a big bomb raid. Then it was 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 5 minutes, cockpit alert. He said when the forward escort fighters are in this and this area, we start. This was in North Germany. Underneath are two Focke Wulf 190's. I am top cover with about 3000 meters on top with my fighter group against fighters. We went down, we saw the contrails, they came. Near north of Frankfurt we got in contact with a P-47 group. I went down right into the leader. They covered the area always with 4, 4, 4, 4. This was so called Hub Zemke's wolf pack. Hub Zemke was a leader of this American fighter group and he developed this tactics to cover a wide air space with wolf pack.
> 
> I came in and got to the leader of the wolf pack and got his left wing. Flames you know. With this tremendous amount of fuel you get a flame. Then I cut to the right and I was hunted. Then they chased me. I should tell you the numbers. It was 800 4-engine bombers, B-17, B-24. This is a parade of 2 hours. They had cover of 1200 fighters from the Hartz mountains down to Stutgard. Always in 4, 4 or other formations. So it without chance. Anyway, I was chased by P-47. I knew exactly that in a dive P-47 is much faster than 109. And the P-47 has a much higher structural strength. They can go up to 1400 kilometers per hour. The 109, if you go to 1000, pull it up, you risk that the wings come off. So I went down from that, bang, bang, bang. I was chased by what we call line abreast, 4 p-47s. And all that shooting here and all of a sudden bang. The left hand was on the throttle and came off and the thumb was off. Finally, I managed. This was a very traumatic thing, certainly. I pull up, when I was down, to the stalling point. The couldn't follow me because these P-47 wanted to fly back to England. And I want to get rid of my airplane. I don't care for the airplane, I want to get out of this. I managed that. This was very difficult because I was hanging outside. I couldn't operate with this hand, nothing. Finally it worked and I pulled the parachute way down and I came down safely and was hanging on a tree."



Rall shot down Jack Green from 62FS and Powers and Vitale were in the flight that chased Rall and shared the credit.


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## Udet (Aug 26, 2007)

It would still be utterly and totally inadmissible.

I know Rall´s book is kind of recent, and surely after so many decades after the war, the mind and not just the body might observe transformations.

Whatever was it Rall considered or assessed to agree to have such painting as the cover, it is most likely it was the consequence of what i do call the psychology of the defeated.

In this case, the defeated side deserves real special treatment, for the simple reason the Germany of world war two is not your average type of defeated side when in view of the processing, manipulations and propaganda bombardment the world has been subjected to since May 9th, 1945...the propaganda system of the Reich, chaired by Herr Doctor Goebbels ceased functioning some 62 years ago, while the mass media of the victors has been functioning ever since.


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## Jank (Aug 27, 2007)

Is it just me or do others find Udet to be an idiot as well?

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## Udet (Aug 27, 2007)

Why don´t you make a poll? It could help you find out.


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## drgondog (Aug 27, 2007)

Udet said:


> I can not believe Rall accepted such painting to become the cover of the book dealing with his life as fighter pilot.
> 
> Had i been the Luftwaffe veteran, such a thing would have been simply unacceptable.
> 
> If a picture or painting of me in combat was to be on the cover, then put me scoring a kill, and not getting shot down.



Udet - maybe another way to look at it is that a.) he was shot down so few times that it was far more memorable than his 275 kills, and b.) it effectively put him out of the war until nearly the end..

I have met and talked to him - typical fighter pilot with GREAT sense of humor, cocky and just a great guy to talk to. 

here are some of the pics I took of him some 20 years ago in Phoenix

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/fighter-aces-german-visitors-1984-a-9215.html



Regards,

Bill

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## Erich (Aug 27, 2007)

cocky that is a fact when we corresponded years ago, but what fighter jock from any country isn't .... the painting does comment on his last real flight in combat so why not have it on the cover, anyone not familiar with the incident would ask what happened and maybe that is why Rall desired the cover art. maybe the guy is getting old like all of us and just wanted to finish up his bio and get on with life.
there is no doubt after viewing the painting-artwork it is nothing but intense and exciting just as any airman of WW 2 will testify who was part of it firsthand.


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## Udet (Aug 27, 2007)

Doctor, hello.

I can understand your arguments, not sure where my understanding lies...whether on the intellectual or emotional scope, not sure.

I have not had the luck to meet any of the TOP Luftwaffe experten, i know Rall´s war career quite well though.

As you might have noticed, my objections are not against the quality of the painting; very good piece of artwork indeed. My arguments, well, you already read them here.

Ok, so if i were the veteran, and had to operate under the directives of the psychology of the defeated, at least it would have been my request that i´m painted destroying the P-47 i killed during such engagement.

Very nice set of photos by the way -you and all those veterans-.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 27, 2007)

I dont see a problem with the painting and frankly I dont think it has anything to do with "Allied" propaganda.

It is a very good piece of artwork and based off of drgondog and Erichs post I have too agree that it might very well be the perfect piece for a cover.


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## Erich (Aug 27, 2007)

Udet I really do not think that Günthers hand was forced in any way shape or form for the cover art. he probably thought it most fitting and if anything the scene really jogged his memory " hey I could of been toast".
The man even in today's aviation circles is a very important persona and he can easily pulls strings to get what he desires

v/r E ~


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## drgondog (Aug 28, 2007)

Udet said:


> Doctor, hello.
> 
> I can understand your arguments, not sure where my understanding lies...whether on the intellectual or emotional scope, not sure.
> 
> ...



I was on a business trip early in my career in the 70's and met my father and Jim Brooks at Paris Airshow where they, as American Fighter Aces Association, had scheduled a meeting with many of the German Aces to 'welcome' them into the 'international community. 

It was there that I first met Rall and Galland plus Steinhoff . I did not get the chance to meet Hartmann as he had left the day before. All very impressive men.

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## John Shaw (Dec 20, 2008)

Very interesting commentary on my painting!
It was indeed a privilege to work firsthand with Gunther Rall and members of the 56th FG to create this scene "The Warrior the Wolfpack". After extensive interviews and time spent with Rall a few years ago to accurately conceptualize this scene, he actually drew for me a diagram of the position of his 109 in relation to the four P-47s, as seen in the painting. As to the markings on his a/c (I am very much a stickler as to these types of details), try as we might, we were unable to establish the exact paint motif applied to the spinner of his plane...We were able to nail down a number on the rudder of his plane that day, and in a vintage photo which depicted numerous parked 109s, one of which bore a number on the rudder with an almost identical number (the last digit was different), we noticed a variety of spinner paint schemes; some with 1 white band, some w/two (as in painting), some with none at all. Rall asserted that at that time, that many of the a/c his unit were using had been "pieced together" in the interest of time and necessity, and that it would be virtually impossible to establish a 100% positive marking. When he saw the concept sketch (very similar to finished painting), he heartily approved, and the only thing which he noted varied from exactly how he remembered this encounter which was all-too-vividly etched in his mind, was that the closest P-47 should have been back farther (about the same distance as the other 3), but agreed that this piece of 'artistic license' would be permissable, in that at different times at higher altitudes in the encounter, they did indeed get that close. When he recounts this story, he adds emphasis by displaying his maimed hand (he still owns the glove, with the hole which once held his thumb!) One other memory I have while asking him about details regarding the geography, weather conditions, etc., was his reply, "I remember it was a clear day...as to how many trees, hills, other things on the ground, I don't remember...I was a little busy at the moment!" 
To this day, no one is 100% certain which specific 56th pilot actually shot Rall down, although after reading combat reports of the Wolfpack pilots who scored kills in the Koblenz and Frankfurt area that day (there were quite a few--Bob 'Shorty' Rankin got five!), the general concensus is that it was likely the guns of the late Joe Powers which brought him down. One of my most treasured memories is that of having a quiet dinner with Rall, Rankin, and a mutual friend, following a busy day of the two of them signing this print, and Gunther reading aloud the final chapters of the manuscript of his biography with the author, Jill Amadio, for final editing. At this dinner, the two veteran pilots (now dear friends for a number of yrs) brought up the May 12 encounter to compare notes, after which Bob Rankin seemed positive that he could not have been the one who shot Rall down. As these two wonderful men wearily got up from the table, they slowly walked toward the restaurant exit, each with an arm around the other's shoulder, still lost in the past. I remember Rall saying to Rankin something to the effect, "I'm certainly glad you were not shot down that day...I love you, my friend". This comment which I'll never forget truly sums up the personality of this remarkable former Luftwaffe Ace. One of the posts on this forum I read states skeptically that a German pilot of Rall's standing would likely never submit to being depicted in a situation in which he was shot down...far from true! Gunther Rall, one of the world's greatest all-time aces, is not only respected for his prowess as a pilot, but is also loved for his authenticity, humility and desire to see past hostilities reconciled. This trait seems to pervade this great generation of pilots; men like Gunther Rall, Tex Hill, Gabby Gabreski, Bob Rankin, John Bolt, the list goes on...I've considered it a true honor to try to preserve the legacy of their time in history through my paintings, and from each have found other wonderful stories and memories worth being told. I wish I had more details to share here as far as the specifics of this particular painting of Rall the 56th, but I hope these few comments have been helpful to those who are interested. We're currently constructing a new site (now showing paintings only), which will soon recount more details I've been privileged to glean from meetings with some of these great people during the research for my paintings. It's libertystudios.us , and we hope it will also become a great place to learn more about this remarkable subject. Thanks for a great forum and I'm glad I was able to find it! --John D. Shaw

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## Maximowitz (Dec 20, 2008)

Thank you for that reply John, I think it's a fantastic piece of artwork that really captures the moment.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 20, 2008)

Great piece of art John, thanks for chiming in and making some things clear.....


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## Gnomey (Dec 20, 2008)

Second what Dan is saying. Thanks for clearing everything up about this fantastic piece of artwork.


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## Haztoys (Dec 20, 2008)

Great work John ... If Mr Rall is not sure what color the spiner was then why should anyone care ...

And ........Real man say when they have won a battle in life ..And real men say when they have had there a$$ handed to them in a battle and lost...What Rall win 275 time and lost what 6 times shot down ...I would kill for a racing numbers like that ...LOL

I race motorcycles (dirt and tarmac) and rally cars all my life and still do ...I can not real remember all the wins ... But the times "I've gone to the ditch" sure stay in my head...I remember the big bang and the glass flying and all..LOL

I can see were he's coming from... I have no shame in losing the battles I've lost ...Because I have pride in having anuff nuts to get in the battle to start with...

You win some and you loose some ...

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## Amsel (Dec 20, 2008)

Those men are of the greatest generation. Thank you Mr. Shaw for you interesting remarks.


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## Njaco (Dec 20, 2008)

Thank you Mr. Shaw. Truly an excellent piece of artwork! And welcome to the forum!


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## Burmese Bandit (Dec 20, 2008)

JOHN SHAW HIMSELF came to post on this one! WOO EEEE!!!!

Is this the greatest warbird forum or WHAT!!!???!!!???


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## KrazyKraut (Dec 21, 2008)

drgondog said:


> Udet - maybe another way to look at it is that a.) he was shot down so few times that it was far more memorable than his 275 kills, and b.) it effectively put him out of the war until nearly the end..
> 
> I have met and talked to him - typical fighter pilot with GREAT sense of humor, cocky and just a great guy to talk to.
> 
> ...


I bet Rall is popular with the Ladies. He reminds me of Roger Moore somehow.


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 21, 2008)

Awesome piece of work John ! and Welcome!


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## comiso90 (Dec 21, 2008)

Welcome John... You used to live in Clovis, CA... right?


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## Erich (Dec 21, 2008)

viewing war time pics of Bf 109G's of II./JG 11 during this time frame I stick 100 % with my conclusion on the nose spiral. it would of be literally insane at this stage of the game to have a CO of a gruppe or Kommodore of a JG to put up anything "special" in the way of markings to single himself out in the air unless the man was covered in selfish pride. Rall was not in this category ........


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## comiso90 (Dec 21, 2008)

Erich said:


> viewing war time pics of Bf 109G's of II./JG 11 during this time frame I stick 100 % with my conclusion on the nose spiral. it would of be literally insane at this stage of the game to have a CO of a gruppe or Kommodore of a JG to put up anything "special" in the way of markings to single himself out in the air unless the man was covered in selfish pride. Rall was not in this category ........



What about Hartman's Black Tulip?


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## Erich (Dec 21, 2008)

what about it ? he and Graf had tulips and they were not alone in JG 52, besides they were on the East front. In July 1944 there was a written order that the Spiralschnauze was to be standard on Western Front fighters as a recognition/ID marking, and I also understand full well when Rall was hit and shot down in the time frame.


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## comiso90 (Dec 21, 2008)

Erich said:


> what about it ?



I was asking and you answered my question.


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## kettbo (Nov 10, 2011)

I am looking for more info on the 12 May 44 action.
A gaming scenario in OVER THE REICH by J D Webster lists 7x 109G-10 vs 3x P-47D-23 near Frankfurt
Further, after several 2 plane passes, Gunter Rall downs a P-47 2x with two solo passes. The final P-47 is Zemke who power dives away.
Any verification here? Details? Thanks in advance


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## Ratsel (Nov 10, 2011)

On 12th May while flying Bf 109 G-5 "Schwarz << +", W.Nr.110 089, of Stab II./JG 11, he nearly succeeded in downing the commander of the famed 56th FG, Lt Col Hubert Zemke (17 3/4 v., POW 30/10/44), and did succeed in destroying two Thunderbolts of this unit. However, he himself was bounced by another pair of P-47s from this same unit and was shot down and forced to bail out over Frankfurt / Main, in the process having his left thumb shot off. 

In Hienz Knoke's book "I flew for the Fuhrer: Story of a German Airman", Knoke states that Günther Specht was responsible for saving General Rall's life, by circling Rall as he floated to earth shooting at any allied aircraft that came close. With that, on On 15 May 1944, Major Specht became Kommodore of JG 11. IIRC.

Hope this helps.


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## kettbo (Nov 10, 2011)

Any identities of these P-47 pilots? Their fates?


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## Ratsel (Nov 11, 2011)

Rall shot down Jack Green from 62nd (confirmed can't recall the other) and Powers and his wingman bounced General Rall. Shared.


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## phas3e (Nov 11, 2011)

My take on it, using IL2 and some photoshop


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## Ratsel (Nov 11, 2011)

phas3e said:


> My take on it, using IL2 and some photoshop


Nice!
Theres a 47 in front of me, this is of Günther Specht who was in the area.






But alas off too church this morning to remember those that have fallen..


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## Erich (Nov 11, 2011)

when I interviewed Rall some years ago he told me he got himself in an uncompromising position there were just too many T-Bolts, he mentioned as he thought at least 4 Bolts were on his tail and anyone of them could of delivered the fatal blow to his 109 and him. He was fortunate enough to only lose a thumb.

Remember those that have fallen . . . . ..


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## bobbysocks (Nov 15, 2011)

there was a military channel series..."Mission's that changed the war"..."Germany's last great ace" was all about Rall. what ever your take on history/military channel it has a lot of interview footage. Rall believes Shorty Rankin was the one who shot off his thumb. i dont know how they came up with this but if you can pull up the shows its might be worth a watch..

here's the eaa link that has a couple of good interviews.

2009 - 10/06 - Famed German Ace Gunther Rall Passes Away


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## Arossihman (Nov 15, 2011)

I would be inclined to say it was true.....don't know for sure though. Zemke and Rall were two exceptional pilots, but by then most of Hubs wolfpack were seasoned as well and I believe(correct me if i'm wrong), they were flying the "M" variant of the '47 by then so when you have 4 seasoned jug pilots in a lighter faster version of one of the most heavily,armed,armored, and fastest prop fighters of the war ur odds for survival are low even for Gunther Rall! Just my humble opinion!
Tony


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## Juha (Nov 16, 2011)

Hello Tony
P-47Ms were still over ½ year away. The first arrived to 56th FG on 3 Jan 45.

Juha

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## Arossihman (Nov 16, 2011)

Juha said:


> Hello Tony
> P-47Ms were still over ½ year away. The first arrived to 56th FG on 3 Jan 45.
> 
> Juha



Thanks for the correction I knew they came late in the war but could'nt remember the date!


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## drgondog (Nov 17, 2011)

Ratsel said:


> On 12th May while flying Bf 109 G-5 "Schwarz << +", W.Nr.110 089, of Stab II./JG 11, he nearly succeeded in downing the commander of the famed 56th FG, Lt Col Hubert Zemke (17 3/4 v., POW 30/10/44), and did succeed in destroying two Thunderbolts of this unit. However, he himself was bounced by another pair of P-47s from this same unit and was shot down and forced to bail out over Frankfurt / Main, in the process having his left thumb shot off.
> 
> In Hienz Knoke's book "I flew for the Fuhrer: Story of a German Airman", Knoke states that Günther Specht was responsible for saving General Rall's life, by circling Rall as he floated to earth shooting at any allied aircraft that came close. With that, on On 15 May 1944, Major Specht became Kommodore of JG 11. IIRC.
> 
> Hope this helps.


 
It would be a crock to claim that Specht 'saved Rall's Life' . A.) Rall makes no such observation that he was in danger of being shot up in his chute. B.) had any US fighter attempted it he could not be 'driven off by Specht' as he was circling Rall.


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## drgondog (Nov 17, 2011)

Ratsel said:


> Rall shot down Jack Green from 62nd (confirmed can't recall the other) and Powers and his wingman bounced General Rall. Shared.



Powers and Vitale were each awarded 1/2 Me 109 - likely shooters of Rall's 109. Rankin received all five of his credits NW Marburg near Frankfurt.

Lt Col Preston Piper (former B-17 pilot) was the other wingman of Zemke shot down by Rall. One near Coblenz in first pass and one near Frankfurt where Rall and his five other 109s had Zemke cornered.


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## Ratsel (Nov 17, 2011)

drgondog said:


> It would be a crock to claim that Specht 'saved Rall's Life' . A.) Rall makes no such observation that he was in danger of being shot up in his chute. B.) had any US fighter attempted it he could not be 'driven off by Specht' as he was circling Rall.



Thats what Knoke said, and Specht thought. Whether that was really the case or not on the allied part is irrelevant. _But to call it a crock is assinine_. ANyways late war didn't matter. SOme allied pilots were shooting at everything. barns, cows, villages, people, cars, farm equipment, pilots, birds, everything, without regard. Thats a fact.


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## Erich (Nov 17, 2011)

volume II of JG 1/11 by Dr. J. Prien is what you need but of course if the KTB of JG 11 is complete which it is not and therefore some things must be taken with a grain of salt. to be honest Rall was a sitting duck as he flew away to save his butt.


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## drgondog (Nov 18, 2011)

Ratsel - if Specht thought he was protecting Rall in the short distance form his landing spot - in ANY way, he was way over valuing his ability to do so from any fighter approaching him. Simply, he has zero chance to protect Rall from an adversary determined to kill him.

Ergo, he of all people should know this. If he told Rall the same story Rall would thank him but also wonder how Specht planned to protect him.

Somewhere the definiton of 'crock' comes into play - as well as 'asinine' with respect to thinking he could protect Rall!


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## Arossihman (Nov 20, 2011)

Ratsel said:


> Thats what Knoke said, and Specht thought. Whether that was really the case or not on the allied part is irrelevant. _But to call it a crock is assinine_. ANyways late war didn't matter. SOme allied pilots were shooting at everything. barns, cows, villages, people, cars, farm equipment, pilots, birds, everything, without regard. Thats a fact.



That may be true...but i seem to remember hearing about a but load of us army prisoners being assasinated wholesale by some german soldiers with an mg-42 in the ardennes during the battle of the bulge....This stuff happened on both sides and in no way was it right! One of the sad parts of war is that innocents are killed....thats why we try and learn from our forefathers and prevent ww3! I'm just glad germany has been reunited and we are allies with them!


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## Njaco (Nov 20, 2011)

> ....SOme allied pilots were shooting at everything. barns, cows, villages, people, cars, farm equipment, pilots, birds, everything, without regard. *Thats a fact*.



Pretty bold statement. Can you provide your sources?


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## bobbysocks (Nov 20, 2011)

Rall was flying a 109...so he should have easily just outflown them and made them look like newbies....like that 109 jock did to the four 51s during bodenplatte. but i guess he wasnt as seasoned a pilot as that guy was....


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## Arossihman (Nov 20, 2011)

Let us not forget that by the end of the war the germans were hiding and transporting munitions,aircraft,truck,and soldiers using civilian cars,trucks,horses and carts,and barns and sheds! By doing so didnt they put their own people in the line of fire? Were our pilots supposed to overlook this and let more of our boys die because of it? By then the writing was on the wall....maybe hitler should have surrendered and saved the lives of his people and the allies!


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## Ratsel (Nov 20, 2011)

Waffen _SS_ were crazy SOB's. NOT part of German regular army which does not endorse ANY political party. The Germans were using horses carts, cars, etc from the begining of the war also. 

As far as Gereral Rall, he outflown/outsmarted claimed 275 allied pilots. I say he did his job very well. Flak got Gunther Specht Franz Meindl, so Allied AAA did there job very well.

Horrido!


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## Erich (Nov 20, 2011)

actually Rall did not have the height advantage and could not get away from 56th fg jugs, as I stated he was a sitting duck Specht and others on that days mission had other Allied A/C to contend with Rall was on his own.

Specht may not have been shot down by US AA but by a Jug of the 366th fg. Bodenplatte was ill-conceived for JG 11 on that fateful day of waste of men/machine


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## Ratsel (Nov 20, 2011)

really? if you could please post some info on Specht's demise, I would be most gratefull!

Horrido!


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## Erich (Nov 20, 2011)

copyrighted materials

blue nose Bastards of Bodney - 352nd fg at Asch Y-29 history book, demise of JG 11 under one blue nose squadron.

Ron Putz, John Manhro's Bodenplatte would be good to get a copy and then cross reference with the datum of the 352nd and the 366th fg's on their ops for the day.

as I said earlier the JG 11 attack was confused they had really no clue what they were doing yet up against.


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## bobbysocks (Nov 20, 2011)

I know Ralls record and highly respect him...my point was there was more to the original story of the 109 turning the battle on the 4 51s. if it were a case of mere ac superiority...Rall of all people would have been able to turn that particular battle. it wasnt...even an excellant pilot in a good machine gets into trouble...sometimes they are lucky enough to get out...and sometimes they werent. 

later in the war...the protocol changed for fighter coverage. 1/3 of the fighter group was free to roam the countryside and orders were to shoot anthing that moves....trains, cars, ox carts, barges, etc. but they as a whole didnt target the german citizen walking home from the market. I read a story where fighters were attacking an airdrome and everytime the made a pass over the one end they flew over an elderly german lady walking nonchalantly with her bags as if nothing was going on. did guys take pot shots at things they probably shouldnt have...church steeples, statues??...i would be more than willing to bet they did. they were after all 20 year old kids....but i think still they picked targets that were non human in those respects.


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## Njaco (Nov 20, 2011)

You will always have collateral damage in war. You will always have overshooting and mistakes made. But purposely to target individual civilians, I have never heard of from the Allies. And I'm not talking about bombing missions.


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## Ratsel (Nov 20, 2011)

Erich said:


> copyrighted materials
> 
> blue nose Bastards of Bodney - 352nd fg at Asch Y-29 history book, demise of JG 11 under one blue nose squadron.
> 
> ...


Yeah I have the book Bodenplatte: The Luftwaffe's Last Hope. A ill-concieved plan made with haste that was suicide for those Luftwaffe pilots. At least the ' Big Blow ' would have bought the Luftwaffe about 3 weeks to figure something out.


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## Dronescapes (Jun 10, 2022)

Here is a complete documentary with plenty of footage of Rall being interviewed::

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## drgondog (Jun 11, 2022)

I have to correct a mis-statement I made re: Rall and Zemke's flight of three. The shooters were I./JG5 Krupinski and Jahn in the Frankfurt area. Johnson's and Piper's MACR and LW KG reports agree on location - which was well away from Rall and JG 11. Rall had nothing to do with the shoot down's of Zemke's wingmen.

I devoted about six pages to the May 12 battle in Our Might Always.

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## Parmigiano (Jun 26, 2022)

Njaco said:


> You will always have collateral damage in war. You will always have overshooting and mistakes made. But purposely to target individual civilians, I have never heard of from the Allies. And I'm not talking about bombing missions.



I can relate an episode that my grandpa told me when i was a boy.
One of his brothers was ploughing a field with a pair of oxen, alone in the countryside.
Some fighters, likely US, came strafing the area, probably as part of an attack to a nearby bridge (north Italy, where Po and Ticinum rivers merge). 
A fighter went strafing the lone ploughman, who jumped between the oxen for protection. 
One ox died, the other one and the man were not hurt. 
Of course there is not certified documentation of this, just the story told by grandpa, but on the other hand he had no reasons to lie.
He said that was good luck that the brother survived, but the loss of the ox was a big hit for the family.
Gran and his brother were 1901 and 1897 vintage, so they were lucky enough to be too old to be drafted in the army

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