# best german jet



## ScOoTeR1992 (Dec 24, 2007)

hello all your friend here again, now out of these which jet would be the best all round even though i dont think the Ba 349 actually did see combat.

Bachem Ba 349 "Natter"
Messerschmitt Me 262 "Schwalbe"
or
Arado Ar 234"Blitz"


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## luftwaffemesserschmitt (Dec 24, 2007)

Messerschmitt 262 no doubt
Good speed,good armarment well ahead of its time..


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## AL Schlageter (Dec 24, 2007)

The Bachem Ba 349 "Natter" was a rocket plane, if one could even call it a plane.

Bachem Ba 349 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Better if you had the He162 in the list.


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## Thorlifter (Dec 24, 2007)

I don't think this is much of a discussion here, but to answer your question......the 262 by far. The Ar234 had great potential, but the fact is, except for a small number of bombing missions, it really didn't do much, other than recon flights. Had the 234 received the same amount of combat time as the 262, then my answer my have been different.


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## SoD Stitch (Dec 24, 2007)

AL Schlageter said:


> The Bachem Ba 349 "Natter" was a rocket plane, if one could even call it a plane.
> 
> Bachem Ba 349 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Better if you had the He162 in the list.



Yeah, ScOoTeR, you might wanna add the He-162 to the list, make it more competetive (though I still think the -262's gonna win).

And, if wanna get real creative, add the Go 229 to the list; after all, you did say "would be".


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## Soren (Dec 24, 2007)

The Go-229 already flew in 44, although without armament. The armed V3 was completely ready to fly when captured though, but it was slightly disassembled to be transported away from the Allies.

Final V2.










V3 when captured:





The Me-262 still wins though, being allot more stable in the air and being able to fly on one engine. On one engine the Go-229 became uncontrollable, the wing brakes not being able to balance out the assymmetrical thrust.

The cool thing about the Go-229 though was that it was undetectable for the radar of the time.


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 24, 2007)

Me 262 hands down


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## Gnomey (Dec 24, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Me 262 hands down



Agreed.


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## Denniss (Dec 24, 2007)

Soren said:


> Go-229


Please use the correct designation Ho 229. Gotha was just the (license) manufacturer but not the designer thus Ho prefix was used.


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## SoD Stitch (Dec 24, 2007)

Denniss said:


> Please use the correct designation Ho 229. Gotha was just the (license) manufacturer but not the designer thus Ho prefix was used.



Technically, you are correct; the Horten brothers designed the original "flying wing" gliders, which lead to powered versions of their flying wing designs. However, if the Ho 229 had gone into production, it most likely would've been designated the Go 229.


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## HoHun (Dec 24, 2007)

Hi Denniss,

>Please use the correct designation Ho 229. Gotha was just the (license) manufacturer but not the designer thus Ho prefix was used.

Hm, I've read about this too, but can it be proven? The Messerschmitt Me 163 was not designed by Willy Messerschmitt either, and yet it was not named for Lippisch.

(You might well be right, I'm just asking because I'd like to be perfectly certain about the issue.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


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## Konigstiger205 (Dec 25, 2007)

Me262 wins without any doubt although like SoD Stitch and AL Schlageter said He-162 had to have its place in the list.


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## Soren (Dec 25, 2007)

Denniss said:


> Please use the correct designation Ho 229. Gotha was just the (license) manufacturer but not the designer thus Ho prefix was used.



Does it really matter that much to you Denniss ?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 25, 2007)

Well this whole poll is a bit botched I guess.

As other pointed out the Natter was not a Jet aircraft.

You cant really compare the Blitz the the Me 262 as they had comletely different roles but atlest it was a jet. 8) 

The only other plane that I think you could put in the list would be the He 162. I dont think you can include the Ho 229 because it never became operational. It is a prototype aircraft.


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## Denniss (Dec 25, 2007)

HoHun said:


> Hi Denniss,
> 
> >Please use the correct designation Ho 229. Gotha was just the (license) manufacturer but not the designer thus Ho prefix was used.
> 
> ...



Lippisch worked for Messerschmitt (at least since early 1939), if the Me 163 would have been built in 1944/45 then it would have become a Lippisch designation. AFAIK the Horton brothers were never Gotha employees, they just used their facilities for further development and production.
If you look at all those aircraft projects of 1944/1945 the RLM tended to give the designers more credit for these types. Ta instead of Fw for the Ta 152/154, Hü for the high-alt He 219 (Hü 211) and others.


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## Erich (Dec 25, 2007)

262 in this case though the Ar 234 was the better recon unit. As a bomber both were a bit lame. As a night fighter the 262 excelled maybe more than any other LW type but too late to make a real difference the Ar 234 had the possibilities if the nose are had been strengthene and of course covered with protective metal for the pilot, it was streamlined enough in the newer configs so it may have been quite suitable


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## Velius (Dec 29, 2007)

I say the Me-262, however I noticed that no one here brought up the Ju-287. I think as far as design goes, it was just as innovative as the Me-262. Think of the X-29 and the Su-47.


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## HoHun (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Denniss,

>If you look at all those aircraft projects of 1944/1945 the RLM tended to give the designers more credit for these types. Ta instead of Fw for the Ta 152/154, Hü for the high-alt He 219 (Hü 211) and others.

Hm, this appears logical, but it's no final proof. There are many examples of aircraft being named for the companies that built them in that time period, too.

I had hoped that there would be something like an old document showing the Ho designation ...

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 29, 2007)

Velius said:


> I say the Me-262, however I noticed that no one here brought up the Ju-287. I think as far as design goes, it was just as innovative as the Me-262. Think of the X-29 and the Su-47.



No one brought up the JU 287 because it was only a prototype.


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## Heinz (Dec 29, 2007)

The 262 for this poll. The other guys have covered the relavent points


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## delcyros (Dec 29, 2007)

He-162 A2 for me.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 29, 2007)

I have edited his poll and removed the Natter.


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## Velius (Dec 29, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> No one brought up the JU 287 because it was only a prototype.



This is true but nevertheless- it was a german jet. It never saw combat but it did have a few tests flights. Also, didn't the manufacturer's of the jets mentioned have future plans in desgin and development? In a sense weren't all their aircraft "prototypes"? 

8)


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## ToughOmbre (Dec 29, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Me 262 hands down



No doubt about it  

TO


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 29, 2007)

Velius said:


> This is true but nevertheless- it was a german jet. It never saw combat but it did have a few tests flights. Also, didn't the manufacturer's of the jets mentioned have future plans in desgin and development? In a sense weren't all their aircraft "prototypes"?
> 
> 8)



The aircraft had a few test flights. Do we know how it would have been with a full bomb load under combat condtions?
 
A Prototype and test bed aircraft such as this one can not be considered best because we simply do not know.

Me 262, Arado Ar 234, and He 162 entered served and can be compared.


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## delcyros (Dec 29, 2007)

A document labelled "Flugleistungen der He-162 mit 003R" dating from february, 9th, 1945 give the estimated (calculated, not test flown) performance changes of the He-162 with BMW-003R.

The BMW-003R is a coupled BMW-003 with a BMW 109-718 rocket engine. The jet unit is deprived by about 3% of it´s power to drive the fuel pumps of the rocket unit. The total thrust output of this unit is 775 Kp + 1250 Kp, limited to three minutes (=4.463 lbs). Rocket fuel is about 700 Kg (180-320 sec., depending on the choosen thrust rating), enough to use full thrust rating and achieving an ceiling of over 10.000m (max. possible: 11.700m in three minutes).
A single He-162 M (prototype) was equipped with the BMW-003R in Vienne and appears to have been tested before VE-day. Whether or not this includes flights is not sure. The drastic weight increase leads to a substantially higher wingload and thus higher stall speed, lower climb rate and longer take off run compared to the normal he-162 A.

Maximum take off weight: 3475 Kg (with rocket fuel)
maximum take off weight: 2.775 Kg (without rocket fuel)
take off run :1470m (without rocket assistence)
take off run: 482m (with rocket assistence)
initial climb: 11m/s (without rocket assistence, compare 18 m/s A-2)
initial climb: 50-80m/s (with rocket assistence, depending on altitude)

There are no estimates given on acceleration and top speed in the document but with hindsight we are able to estimate that acceleration is better than in the Me-163 and top speed with more than twice the thrust avaiable will likely result in encountering it´s crit Mach figure at any given altitude.


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## Velius (Dec 29, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The aircraft had a few test flights. Do we know how it would have been with a full bomb load under combat condtions?
> 
> A Prototype and test bed aircraft such as this one can not be considered best because we simply do not know.
> 
> Me 262, Arado Ar 234, and He 262 entered served and can be compared.



Ah, I see what your talking about. Just thought I'd bring it up anyway. Thanks8)


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## HoHun (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Delcyros,

>The total thrust output of this unit is 775 Kp + 1250 Kp, limited to three minutes (=4.463 lbs). Rocket fuel is about 700 Kg (180-320 sec., depending on the choosen thrust rating), enough to use full thrust rating and achieving an ceiling of over 10.000m (max. possible: 11.700m in three minutes).

Thanks a lot - I had been looking for fuel consumption figures for the BMW 003R for a while, considering the figures given by von Gersdorff et al. too high. I'll have to check whether this impression is correct - maybe I simply underestimated the amount of extra fuel to be carried by the He 162.

Does the report detail how the rocket fuel was stored? The He 162 couldn't use its full design fuel capacity for centre of gravity reasons, so later a smaller main tank was installed, but of course it wouldn't be possible to use the saved space for rocket fuel for just the centre of gravity considerations that prevented its use for fuel - unless other changes were made too, of course.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


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## VinnyG (May 1, 2010)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Well this whole poll is a bit botched I guess.
> 
> As other pointed out the Natter was not a Jet aircraft.
> 
> ...



Your right that it didn't become operational, but that is because Germany lost the War... The Ho 229 had greater potential, but the ME 262 is most definitely the best when you add in the factors


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 1, 2010)

VinnyG said:


> Your right that it didn't become operational, but that is because Germany lost the War... The Ho 229 had greater potential, but the ME 262 is most definitely the best when you add in the factors



Could have, should have, would have. Does not change the point that it did not happen. An aircraft that never saw its potential for whatever reasons, still did not see its potential.


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## davebender (May 1, 2010)

I agree. 

Unlike other WWII era jets the Me-262 was fully combat ready and in mass production by April 1945. Only a few months too late to matter.


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## Grateful nephewj (Jul 19, 2016)

Just joined and my forum name has everything to do with my uncle who was one of two 52nd FG Mustang pilots who shot down the lone Arado 234 lost in air combat. Uncle C and his wingman both hit the Arado, but we never heard the whole story until just before his death in 2010.


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## Thorlifter (Jul 19, 2016)

Welcome to the forum.

Two things.
1. You should put this in a thread of it's own. Mods, can you move it?
2. Lone AR-234 lost in combat? I believe many were lost in combat, some by fighters, some by flak, some were attacked as they took off. Please clarify if I'm wrong. I saw on another forum there were 14 AR-234 combat claims, the first was from a Tempest in the RAF in Dec 1944.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 19, 2016)

Yes several where shot down. Not just one. Most I believe where during landing though.


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