# #1 American Killer, ETO???



## lesofprimus (Jul 29, 2004)

In all my researching and reading, I have never been able to find enough info to settle this debate for myself... 

I would assume that this is a very difficult statistic to track...

I would also assume that the All-Time American Killer was Japanese, for obvious reasons, but I may be wrong in this assumption...

Anyone got some stats sittin around that could shed some light on this???


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## lesofprimus (Jul 29, 2004)

As an add on, Tetsuzo Iwamoto scored an impressive 202 aerial kills, and although this # seems to vary from different sources, the 202 seems to be the most common # posted...


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 29, 2004)

If you mean the top American Ace in the ETO, it would be Gabby Gabreski with 28 air-to-air kills. But I'm not really sure what you are asking for. Could you explain it better?


By the way, Hiroyoshi Nishizawa is sometime acreditted with 202 victories though a total of 87 is more commonly accepted. Estimates for Iwamoto's final tally range from 250 to 66 with 80 seeming to be the most likely number.


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## lesofprimus (Jul 30, 2004)

Naw man i know Gabby... What im lookin 4 is the German who killed the most Americans...

Ive seen the 87 before... But in books and online and articles and whatnot, i've seen the 202 more than any other #...


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 30, 2004)

Tracking that down would be pretty hard to do. The Germans on the Western front had relatively modest scores as compared to those on the Eastern front. I doubt anyone in the ETO shot down more Americans than Nishizawa or Iwamoto.


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## lesofprimus (Jul 30, 2004)

Yea LG... I have been looking for some solid stats on this for quite some time, and have virtually come up empty... ETO that is...

Who was the leading German Ace in the ETO??? I'd have to look it up, but maybe one of u have it burned into ur memory chips...

Maybe Erich has some insider info on the leading American Killer...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 31, 2004)

he hasn't been around much lately.................


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## lesofprimus (Jul 31, 2004)

I found a website that has a great stat listing that has been compiled from offical German films from the Eastern front, 1941-1944... Lists pilots name, date, location, aircraft downed and so forth... Zip file... Pretty interesting reading...

If i can locate one of these for the Western front, we might have something here...

If anyone is interested in this zip file, just say so and ill email u it...


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## Erich (Aug 2, 2004)

will have to dig deep as this is an interesting question..... as it could be the combination of bombers/fighters or one or the other ? let me know and we can go from there. Walter Dahl has in some references been known to be the top Mustang killer but although his claims are impressive further research has found that some of claims are in fact bogus and may have been credited to his wingman or other pilots under his leadership.............kinda crappy but it was not uncommon to have a leading personality/knights cross winner be built up for propaganda reasons. this my feelings for Herr Rudel and his tank busting feats. I surely do not beleive at all the 519 claimed in his favour.

Erich ~


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## lesofprimus (Aug 4, 2004)

Yea Erich... These are some specific statistics that may not even exist for all i know...

I read about Dahl before and agree with what ur saying about puffing up his totals...
But Rudel??? I fully believe in as many sorties as the man had, that those #'s are definatly acievable... He fired over 5,000 37mm rounds, and when he was to be presented with another award, he would make it conditional that he should be allowed to continue flying sorties...

Against even Hitlers requests...

When he recieved his final Award, Hitler reluctantly agreed, but latter on that agreement was revolked, and Rudel was grounded... He went back to the front in direct disobiedience of the Greman Higher Authority...

The man wanted to kill as many Russians as possible before the war ended... 

Tank by tank...


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## lesofprimus (Aug 4, 2004)

I would assume one of these men can claim the title in the ETO...

The PTO is alittle more difficult....

Only 8 men shot down over 100 aircraft in the WTO... 

List 
Rank / First Name / Last Name / West / East / Total 

1 
Hptm. Hans-Joachim "Jochen" Marseille 158 0 158 

2 
Obstlt. Heinz "Pritzel" Bär 125 96 221 
3 
Obstlt. Kurt Bühligen 112 0 112 

4 
GenLt. Adolf "Dolfo" Galland 104 0 104 

5 
Maj. Joachim Müncheberg 102 33 135 

6 
Maj. Werner Schroer 102 12 114 

7 
Obstlt. Egon Mayer 102 0 102 

8 
Obst. Josef "Pips" Priller 101 0 101 
9 
Obst. Gustav Rödel 96 (97) 2 (1) 98 

10 
Hptm. Josef "Sepp" Wurmheller 93 9 102 

11 
Maj. Siegfried "Wurm" Schnell 90 3 93 

12 
Maj. Erich Rudorffer 86 138 224 

13 
Obst. Walter Oesau 73 44 117 

14 
Hptm. Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert 71 103 174 

15 
Hptm. Siegfried Lemke 70 0 70 

16 
Oblt. Adolf "Addi" Glunz 69 3 72 

17 
Maj. Werner "Vati" Mölders 68 33 101 

18 
Maj. Georg-Peter Eder 68 10 78 

19 
Maj. Hans "Assi" Hahn 66 42 108 

20 
Maj. Anton "Toni" Hackl 61 131 192 

21 
Maj. Gerhard Homuth 61 2 63 

22 
Oblt. Herbert Rollwage 60+ 11 85~ 

23 
Maj. Gerhard Michalski 59 14 73 

24 
Lt. Hans-Arnold "Fiffi" Stahlschmidt 59 0 59 

25 
Maj. Klaus Mietusch 57 15 72 

26 
Obst. Herbert Ihlefeld 56 67 123 

27 
Oblt. Günther Seeger 56 0 56 

28 
Maj. Helmut Wick 56 0 56 

29 
Oblt. Karl-Heinz Bendert 55 0 55 

30 
Maj. Wilhelm-Ferdinand "Wutz" Galland 54 (55) 0 54 (55)


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## Lightning Guy (Aug 5, 2004)

Some of these men, Like Galland, scored most of their kills before America even entered the war. I'm not sure who all that rules out, but it probably rulls out several.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Aug 5, 2004)

Surely this is supposed to be the WTO, right?


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## lesofprimus (Aug 5, 2004)

ETO European Theatre operations...

But yes.... For the Western European Theatre...


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## lesofprimus (Aug 5, 2004)

Here is a list of American kills for the WTO...

# / Name / US Kills / Total Kills / Bombers / Fighters 

1. Georg-Peter Eder / 55 / 78 / 36 / 9xP47, 7xP51, 3xP38
2. Heinz "Pritzel" Bär / 52 / 221/ 21 / 11xP51, 10xP47, 4xP38, 3xB25, 1xA20
3. Anton "Toni" Hackl / 47 / 192 / 34 / 6xP47, 3xP38, 2xP51, 3 "??" 
4. Kurt Bühligen / 46 / 112 / 24 / 13xP38, 9xP47
5. Walther Dahl / 41 / 128 / 30 / 6xP51, 3xP38, 2xP47
6. Konrad "Pitt" Bauer / 40 / 68 / 32 / 7xP51, 1xP38
7. Egon Mayer / 40 / 102 / 26 / 8xP47
8. Heinrich Bartels / 39 / 99 / 2 / 14xP38, 11xP51, 9xP47, 2xB25 
9. Siegfried Lemke/ 39 / 70 / 21 / 8xP47, 6xP51, 2xP38, 2xB26, 1xB25, 1xP39 
10. Werner Schroer / 36 / 114 / 26 / 8xP38, 1xP51, 1xP39


Seems like Eder is the man....

Looks to me like Bartels was one hell of a freakin great pilot.....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 6, 2004)

he also looks like one of my old teachers.......................


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 28, 2004)

What I have here is just a list of the top fighter pilots against USAAF aircraft. It does not include the total number of aircraft shot down just the number of USAAF aircraft shotdown. If you go to the website you can actually see it broken down by the number of each type of aircraft shotdown. From what I can gather the Luftwaffe pilot to score the most kills against US aircraft was Maj. Georg-Peter Eder who had 55 to 57 US kills.




> The following table gives the list of the Luftwaffe pilots who exceeded the US top-scorer victories figure on European theatre – means 28 air victories (R.S. Johnson and F. Gabreski) , against US aircrafts only. It has to be noted that no less than 25 Lufwaffe pilots achieved to exceed this ”top-US” figure – against USAAF only - , the #1 ranking even achieving twice this ”top-US” figure ! (against USAAF only !). And without any mention to all others fronts and opponents they all had to fight too ! (refer to the table for the complete data about these pilots). The reasons of such successes, could be found in the bravery and sacrifice the Luftwaffe pilots had to shown in their daily fights to survive.... when they made it: nearly half of this eventhough outstanding pilots lost their life in this attrition war...
> 
> 
> Maj. Georg-Peter Eder 55 to 57
> ...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 28, 2004)

Ofcourse as I see in your post Les which I think you got from the same website as myself Heinrich Bartels seemed to have killed the most US fighter such as the P-51 and P-38. Which yes as you say Lanc makes him one hell of a pilot.


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## wmaxt (Dec 28, 2004)

I guess that bomber crewswould skew the stats a lot but even then the stats would be off because a number of pilots/crew got out to live another day.


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## Anonymous (Dec 29, 2004)

lesofprimus said:


> In all my researching and reading, I have never been able to find enough info to settle this debate for myself...
> 
> I would assume that this is a very difficult statistic to track...
> 
> ...



Hmmm... I'm not sure but I think American's have that honor. Check out the losses in the Civil War.

Edit: I see this is not what you meant. I thought you were saying the country as a whole and "of all time".

=S=

Lunatic


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 29, 2004)

From what I have read Eder shot down the most American planes but I do fully understand what you are saying Lunatic, and not even in a war like the Civil War. Just accidents have given the US military a bad name in friendly fire accidents. I still see it today all the time over here in Iraq.


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## Pertsajakilu (Jan 8, 2005)

Hi!

The aerial battles over ETO were battle of the masses. Many experten form Russian fornt were killed because of that. There were allways somebody behind of Your neck if You were careless. Dogfight means death because there were alltime somebody seeing You dogfighting. Dive pass and fire.....

When US fighters entered battles over germany most of the quality pilots were killed. Like in ground battles US didin't have to face best of the best of germans. Of course allied pilots were as good as germans but US never faced it when they entered in the ETO. By the time US fighter pilots entered German air space the German pilot quality was draining seriously. 

Pertsajakilu


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## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

> By the time US fighter pilots entered German air space the German pilot quality was draining seriously.


I will agree with this somewhat, but there were Americans flying with the Brits, and there were many, MANY Aces left in Germany when the USAAF started their campaign....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

So you are saying that a lot of the great German Pilots were already dead?
What about Bar, Galland, Schroer, and Priller just to name a few of the many many many Luftwaffe aces that flew on the western front and survived the war. The quality was not drained.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

My point exactly, but he's new, so lets not squash him too bad.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> > By the time US fighter pilots entered German air space the German pilot quality was draining seriously.
> 
> 
> I will agree with this somewhat, but there were Americans flying with the Brits, and there were many, MANY Aces left in Germany when the USAAF started their campaign....



And there were many still at the end of the war too.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

Yup....... But not as many....... Hehe...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> My point exactly, but he's new, so lets not squash him too bad.....



Oh I am not, dont worry, dont want to scare him off.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> Yup....... But not as many....... Hehe...



That is also true, but that is the same for all the nations, even the good ones get it sometimes.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

Yup..... Too many instances to name with that one....

U and i are usually always on the same page DerAdler.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

I just try and go with the facts and common sense but I am not always correct, I only know what I read.


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## Erich (Jan 8, 2005)

out of curiousity anyone check the line-up of pilots in the 262 JV 44 and JG 7. quite a few aces to say..........

also SturmFw gruppen like JG 3 and JG 300 kicked out quite a few viermottoter's

Walter Dahl of III./JG 3, Stab./JG 300 and EJG 2 has been claimed to have shot down more P-51's than anymone but that info is bogus..........

Erich ~


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

The Luftwaffe was not exhausted of great and even just good fighter pilots there were aces up until the end.


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## Erich (Jan 8, 2005)

the problem is and we have covered it at length: reduction of airfields due to the shrinking of the Reich and lack of fuels for jet and piston prop fighters. Plenty of a/c and eager young pilots


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

For instance Heinrich Bartels shot down 14 P-38's and had 99 total kills he was not killed until June 1944. Hafner shot down 8 P-38's and had 204 total and was not killed until Oct 1944. Wilhelm Steinmann shot down 11 P-51's, 7 P-47's and had a total of 51 kills and he survived the war. These are just a few.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

Erich said:


> the problem is and we have covered it at length: reduction of airfields due to the shrinking of the Reich and lack of fuels for jet and piston prop fighters. Plenty of a/c and eager young pilots



You are correct.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

In January of 1945, Galland and many other top Luftwaffe pilots essentially
mutinied against Reichsluftmarschall "Meyer". Galland and his peers demanded the adoption of a newly developed tactics to fight the RAF and USAAF bombers, they wanted to have all Me-262’s released for immediate operational fighter status and they wanted Hitler to relieve Göring of his command for gross incompetence. Challenging Göring on these issues were Major Hans-Heinrich von Brüstlein, Oberst Günther von Maltzahn, Oberst Edu Neumann, Oberst Harald Rödl, Oberst Günther Steinhoff as well as Galland.

Göring however was informed of Galland's efforts and took immediate countermeasures. He essentially ignored the pilots and tempers quickly flared. After a series of unproductive shouting matches, Göring then retaliated by having Galland and a few of his cohorts arrested. 

Though the idea to court-martial Galland was quickly dropped, Galland was ordered by Göring to leave Berlin immediately and await further orders. Lützow, who was the spokesperson for the mutinying Luftwaffe pilots, was banished to Italy and forbidden to contact Galland, except to discuss business matters. 

At this time, Albert Speer intervened. Speer was so ed with Göring’s callous behavior, he immediately contacted a sleeping Hitler in the middle of the night to seek the Führer’s assistance. The next morning, a visibly shaken Galland was assured by many high level military and political officials of the Third Reich, that the events of the previous day or two had only been a series of massive communications misunderstandings. 

Galland was to meet with Hitler right away. A short while later, Göring summoned Galland to his personal residence, Karinhall, and advised Galland that it was only due to the personal request of him, Göring, that all criminal charges filed against Galland were to be dropped. In addition, the Führer had ordered Galland to establish a special squadron comprised only of Me-262 aircraft. Galland could select any name he wanted for the new squadron, provided that he did not lend his own name to the unit. 

In addition, the Führer had allowed Galland to select any pilot from the Luftwaffe he wanted to, to staff the new formation with. Quickly, Galland sent Steinhoff off to recruit the best pilots the Luftwaffe had to offer. With a touch of cynicism (and a tribute to his first unit command, III./JG 88 "Mickey Mouse Staffel" in Spain), Galland elected to use the year 1944 in his designation - Jagdverband (JV) 44 (in some texts, the units is also identified as Jagdgruppe 44 "Galland"). During its very short operational career, atleast 10 of the 50 plus pilots of JV 44 were "Ritterkreuz" (Knights Cross)award recipients. It was thus truly a squadron of expert pilots. Its rosterincluded such distinguished Luftwaffe pilots such as Steinhoff, Krupinski, Bär, Lützow, Herget, Kaiser and others. Working with the Me 262 pilots of JG 7, JV 44 became combat ready on 31 March 1945. JV 44’s primary mission assignments were to destroy Allied bombers and down as many Allied fighters as possible. 

Due to the military situation of the time, various stretches of the München-Augsburg Autobahn served as the primary bases of JV 44. Of interest is that JV 44 really never had more than 15 operational Me-262 jets available at any given time from a pool of about 25-30 assigned aircraft.

Despite the handicaps, JV 44 was able to achieve close to 50 confirmed kills before the war ended on 09 May 1945. JV 44 was overrun by U.S. armored formation at its new base in Salzburg-Maxglan on 03 May 1945.

http://www.skysthelimitgallery.com/IMAGES/Special/news_last.pdf

The following table lists only JV44 pilots who qualify as Experten. 
These 17 pilots alone accounted for 1726 Allied planes destroyed in aerial combat.
An average of 101.5 planes each!

Pilot Rank Notes Victories 

Bär, Heinz Oberstlt RK-EL-S Acting Kommandeur JV44 220 
Barkhorn, Gerhard Major RK-EL-S Fmr Kommodore JG 6 301 
Bob, Hans-Ekkehard Major RK 59 
Galland, Adolf Gernerallt Wounded 26.4.45 RK-EL-S-Br Kommandeur JV44 104 
Grüberg, Hans Oberlt RK 82 
Herget, Wilhelm Major Wounded 2.5.45 RK-EL 72 
Hohagen, Erich Major RK Technical Officer JV44 55 
Kaiser, Herbert Ofw RK 68 
Krupinski, Walter Hauptmann RK-EL 197 
Lützow, Günther Oberstlt MIA 24.4.45 RK-EL-S 108 
Neuman, Klaus Leutnant RK 37 
Nielinger, Rudolf Ofw 20 
Sachsenberg, Karl Heinz Leutnant RK Leader Würger-Staffel 104 
Schnell, Karl-Heinz Major RK 72 
Schuhmacher, Leo Ofw Rk 23 
Steinhoff, Johannes Oberst Wounded 18.4.45 RK-EL-S 176 
Stigler, Franz Oberlt Technical Officer, JV44 28

Awards 
German / English

RK Ritter Kreuz / Knights Cross 
EL Eichenlaubs / Oak Leaves to RK 
S Schwerten / Swords to RK-EL 
Br Brillanten / Diamonds to RK-EL-S 


The combat records of many of the JV44 staff have been lost to history. It is quite possible, if not probable that even more Experten were present. Missing from the above list are two pilots with known victories while flying Me 262s with JV44. They are Uffz. Johann-Karl Müller with 3 victories and Ofw. Otto Kammerdierer with 2 victories.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

Yes and they became known as the Luftwaffe Experten.


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## Erich (Jan 8, 2005)

Herget was a RK receipient while in NJG 4. He was the one that flew the monster Mk 214 5cm cannon equipped Me 262. The cannon failed on both missions while attack B-26 formations.

Franz Stigler was a DK winner while in JG 27. At least 5 B-17's to his credit he is a Bf 109G ace. Still alive and living in Canada. A neat guy !

Hans Grunberg died this last year. A RK recipient with JG 3 and later in JG 7 he had a great wingman still alive in Walter Bohatsch. I have been fortunate enough to have my JG 7 book signed by both gentlemen. Walter is still alive and has written his own memories. Walter is given credit erronously to have started the high cover of Sturmstaffel 1 with Bf 109G-6's as Staffelkaptian of 2./JG 3 during April-June of 1944. In reality freind and ace of Jg 51 and 2./JG 3 Horst Petzschler transferred over to give Walter a hand and he was the one that incepted the idea as it was being done in Jg 51 on the ost front during the ground attack sorties by the unit..............sorry for the ramble.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

No it is not ramble, it is all very interesint. I learn something new here every day.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 8, 2005)

I don't think there's really such a thing as ramble on this site.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

No sometimes we get off topic and ramble. But its all in fun.


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## Erich (Jan 8, 2005)

alrightie then ! 8) 

Klaus Neumann came from IV.Sturm/JG 3. Yep U guessed it a SturmFw pilot of incredible skill. A bomber killer for sure in every sense of the word. An able leader he first led the 2./JG 51 transferred into IV.Sturm/JG 3 with their Fw's with red markings the 2nd staffel alter becoming 16.Sturm/JG 3 and Klaus being one of the able staffelfuhrers in the staffel. Klaus was pulled out of the Sturm staffel into JV 44, which probably saved his life as he only spent little time on the Me 262 and got in very few missions. After the war, dejected and ashamed of his military career and died in obscurity in an old run-down rest home in central Germany. The man had a huge photo-album of measurable proportions and he was talked out of the photos by who knows who never to be seen again.............in vain I tried to contact the man through letter twice and found out that he had moved to another facility and then passed away.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

That sucks I bet those photos would have been amazing to see.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

Too true...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 9, 2005)

I love you sig, that is an all time classic line


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 9, 2005)

it's a very nice pic.............


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## lesofprimus (Jan 9, 2005)

TY....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 9, 2005)

I wish I could remember what I wanted to post in this damn thread earlier today. I am going to die trying to remember it.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 10, 2005)

now there's a trick.............


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## Erich (Jan 10, 2005)

back from the Docs...........oooooooh how fun that was

ok if my hands will work

another mention of Sachsenberg. A notble ace finished up with the Dora protection staffel for Galland Circus-JV 44. Sachs did not like the 262 as he felt the a/c was just way too fast for him and his liking. Sachsenberg Schwarme or Würger staffel, also known incorrectly ast he Papagei staffel flew distinctive Doras with yellow tipped spinners and red/white stripes under the wings for recognition. also printed in old Germanic Schrift were catchy little personal sayings. The stafel of about 4-5 a/c claimed possibly 1 P-47 in southern German by Klaus Faber.

here is apic in front of Röte 3. Sachsenberg is second from the right in the Lederkombination


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## Erich (Jan 10, 2005)

Röte 13 was usually Klaus Fabers mount. Here sitting in an open field. note the other Dora numeral unknown way in the background with one of the legs busted off.

This a/c Klaus claimed 1 P-47 enroute to visit some honey with a bottle of the bubbly

E


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 10, 2005)

For some reason Erich I think you have something to do with this webpage that I had found earlier and has information on the Wuerger Staffel. It is an exellent website and if you had something to do with the information on it, great work my friend. Anyhow here is some info on what he was saying about the sayings on the planes.



> "Sachsenberg was a good pilot... We felt safer when his aircraft were in the air" Adolf Galland
> 
> The Me 262 was most vulnerable during takeoff and landing, more so than piston aircraft due to the greater time and distance required for the process. Marauding Allied pilots knew this and lurked around the bases in hopes of an easy kill.
> 
> ...



And here are the known pilots and sayings that they had on there planes.



> Lt Heinz Sachsenberg Fw 190D-9 'Rot 1' Verkaaft's mei Gwand 'I foahr in himmel!
> (Sell my clothes I'm going to heaven)
> 
> Hptm. Waldemar Wübke Fw 190D-9 'Rot 3' Im Auftrage der Reichsbahn
> ...



It is deffinatly and interesting piece of history and neat to read, check it out.


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## Erich (Jan 10, 2005)

friend in the late 1980's I was keeping track of the unit with artist/historian Jerry Crandall who released their book on the staffel with great pics and profiles some years back....... it is an interesting and almost unknown unit. As far as I am aware all the members of the unit have passed away. when JV 44 was based near Salzburg the Würgers were at Ainring and it is almost funny since the staffel was unknown to most of the members of JV 44, that from the "count" Walter Krupinski

E `


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 10, 2005)

Very interesting. Just to let you know I always enjoy your posts, you seem to be the most informed person here who posts and I have learned a lot from you. Thank you.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 10, 2005)

I feel that way too.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 10, 2005)

I just wish I was as fortunate as him to have actually met these people and learned from them.


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## Erich (Jan 10, 2005)

well thank you very much.  but I also am learning from you guys as well. you can well imagine what it may have been like in the early 1960's when I was starting out and trying to find veterans in the US that would take interest in my questions and then finally finding out the addy's of German service personell and writing them, mail taking sometimes a year for a return. so much has changed with high tech the last 10 years it is amazing. Sad for all of us the veterans from all sides are depleting at such an incredible rate that in 5-7 years they will be gone......

just like this German chap who flew 109G-10's and later the K, Werner Dehr. Promised him through a contact to write the guy and I waited to long and he passed away......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 10, 2005)

That is terrible.


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## wmaxt (Jan 10, 2005)

Erich said:


> well thank you very much.  but I also am learning from you guys as well. you can well imagine what it may have been like in the early 1960's when I was starting out and trying to find veterans in the US that would take interest in my questions and then finally finding out the addy's of German service personell and writing them, mail taking sometimes a year for a return. so much has changed with high tech the last 10 years it is amazing. Sad for all of us the veterans from all sides are depleting at such an incredible rate that in 5-7 years they will be gone......
> 
> just like this German chap who flew 109G-10's and later the K, Werner Dehr. Promised him through a contact to write the guy and I waited to long and he passed away......



I agree it's very sad to lose that whole generation - I think the last generation where you did what had to be done in spite of the cost. I think we've become soft since.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 10, 2005)

I agree with you on that. The generation today takes everything for granted, I know I used to until I got sent to Iraq and now I am grateful for everything.


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## Erich (Jan 11, 2005)

sad but true......

Kassel memorial for the fallen: both US 445th bomb group and the SturmFw pilots and the high cover on Bf 109G-6's


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## Anonymous (Jan 11, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> For some reason Erich I think you have something to do with this webpage....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I find this hard to believe. From 1500 feet you could not protect the jets. Perhaps 1500 meters, but I would more expect something like 2500 meters.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Anonymous (Jan 11, 2005)

Since you're all talking about German pilots, here's my favorite... well he's not really German he was Russian/Romanian... not the most kills but can you imagine... what a life!

=S=

Lunatic


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 11, 2005)

RG_Lunatic said:


> DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
> 
> 
> > For some reason Erich I think you have something to do with this webpage....
> ...



Let Erich explain it to you. He knows more about this stuff then any of us.


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## Udet (Jan 13, 2005)

Quizz:

One of the deadliest "bull`s eye" in the ETO took place during the Allied landings in Italia.

German bombers attacked the US naval force landing troops and equipment with Henschel guided missiles. Several hits were scored. A large troop transport heavily laden with US soldiers got hit by one missile. The missile landed perfectly amidships, right overhead the crammed vessel. In a fraction of a second a frightful loss of life occured. A massacre. It was by far the biggest number of killed US soldiers in the briefest period of time: 1-2 seconds.

The view was so terrible hundreds of witnesses became either sick or psychiatric cases.

Date of the attack?
To what KG (Kampfgruppe) did the bombers belong?
How many GI´s died when the Hs missile landed on the vessel?

The event was so terrible, the government of the USA concealed it for several years to their people (so you can see not only Bolsheviks and nazis proceeded in such fashion).


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

You know I can not tell you, but I would say it happened on either the 9th or the 10th of Sept 1943.


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## Erich (Jan 13, 2005)

good quiz Udet, and am not sure if this correct, but I do know that He 177's and Do 217's dropped the little things. Unit was KG 40

Erich


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

I know that He-111's were used to drop torpedos on the landing ships but I am not sure what aircraft or group dropped the Hs293's during the invasion.


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## Udet (Jan 13, 2005)

Hello Der Adler and Erich!

In fact, as Erich pointed out, Do217s from KG40 were responsible for the attack I am referring to.
Pending, we have the number of GIs dead on the transport ship. Anyone?


DerAdler: He111s indeed launched aerial torpedoes and also the V1.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 14, 2005)

No I really have no clue.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 14, 2005)

i've always thought the He-111 looked particularily attractive when carrying a V-1............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 15, 2005)

I always thought it looked pretty neat period. I like the way the canopy was a glass shell and the way the wings looked. It just seemed graceful to me, even if it was not the greatest bomber ever built.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 15, 2005)

very sleek..............


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## Anonymous (Jan 15, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I always thought it looked pretty neat period. I like the way the canopy was a glass shell and the way the wings looked. It just seemed graceful to me, even if it was not the greatest bomber ever built.



It would have been a much better plane had Hitler and Georing not screwed it up by insisiting it be dive bomber capable. This requirement forced the incorporation of structural weight which was only useful for dive bombing, decreasing the payload, speed, armor, defensive weaponry, and fuel capacity options.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Jan 15, 2005)

another hint of reality, another war memorial to the fallen from both sides.

July of 44, US bomber crews and Luftwaffe SturmFw pilots


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## evangilder (Jan 15, 2005)

Nice tribute, Erich. I understand that a country should honor it's war dead, but I think that the time of villainizing our former enemies is over. All the dead from the war should be honored.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 15, 2005)

And usually they are..... Every battlefield i have visited is unilaterally compassionate to each of the combattants.....


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## evangilder (Jan 15, 2005)

Yes that is true. I was thinking in terms of WWII. Obviously, aside from Pearl Harbor, there were no battles on American soil. So we tend to not always get the whole story.


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## Erich (Jan 15, 2005)

gentlemen it is really tough still though. many US vets have come to grips with the loss of their friends in battle and have merged or have been asked by the German vets to come over and be part of the ceremonies. Very odd though that some Luftwaffe ace graves unless on private property have been disgraced by their own people. A stone with a name(s) or an old cross neglected or grass or ivy covering up someones passing some 60 years ago. time seems to forget too easily and so do humans. As my signature states 'those that one forgets are really forgotten'

Erich


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## plan_D (Jan 15, 2005)

People often forget that even though they're they were the enemy, they were humans too and humans doing their job. Soldiers seem to understand that better than normal people. I've seen a lot of interviews with men who served in World War 2 showing a lot of respect and compassion for the Germans.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 15, 2005)

My grandfather is actually good friends with a couple of former Luftwaffe pilots. It makes you think, alright.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 15, 2005)

My Grandfather was rather freindly with several Japanese pilots, one of which that he met turned out to be a guy he shot down in the Solomons..... 

Rather a great story.... Mutual respect and honor..


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## plan_D (Jan 15, 2005)

I can understand it be harder to respect the Japanese though. I saw a D-Day veteran shake hands with a German D-Day vet, he was defending the beach. The British vet even told the German that he probably shot a lot of his friends...but they still shook hands, and talked. There's a mutual respect, they both went through hell. 

It's true, combat bonds are one of the strongest. les, will know that...


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## lesofprimus (Jan 15, 2005)

That a no-shitter PD...... I still talk to dudes I served with 15 years ago...... U cant erase those bonds...


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## Erich (Jan 15, 2005)

time heals some wounds gents, but I can tell you that there are those that will not forget nor forgive...........very sad.

my cousins grave


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## lesofprimus (Jan 15, 2005)

This is unfortunantly quite true erich, but as time wears on, there are less WWII vets around to be bitter about it..... Pretty soon, there will be no WWII vets left and history will close another chapter....


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 15, 2005)

Erich said:


> ...there are those that will not forget nor forgive



That's true, Erich. My great uncle was a Para in Normandy, and he absolutely hates Germans to this day. Sad.


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## Erich (Jan 15, 2005)

Yes I can speak at length of one British engineer came in at Normandie and finally got severly wounded in 1945 with Fallshirmjäger in Holland. sent home from his wounds which he still feels to day using a cane. incredibly bitter and unforgiving of the Germans especially the Waffen SS. I have told him countless times that he needs to forgive to get this behind him after all these years but am told " You were not there ! " 

yes that is true, and it is his decision of which I wish I could change....

graves forgotten, well almost


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 15, 2005)

As has been said, they may have been on the losing side, but those men fought and died for their country and their loved ones. 
Yes some committed acts of great evil, but not _all_ of them!


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## lesofprimus (Jan 15, 2005)

Yup....


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## evangilder (Jan 15, 2005)

Acts of evil were created by the allies as well though. War is hell, and sometimes it's even worse.


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## Erich (Jan 15, 2005)

and that is what needs to be taught, pencil, paper in hand guys, and go interview some of these men before they are all gone, carry that digitial too. Even if it is German, British, Soviet, Japanese or America's # 1 killer in the ETO. History is still here and it is passing and way too soon there will be a void that we will never learn from again......


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## evangilder (Jan 15, 2005)

Erich, that is exactly what I am doing. I have been interviewing veterans for a book that I am working on. I have 4 now and am writing them into a good format, they tend to go from one story to the next fairly quickly. So I am trying to put it into a proper timeline in proper sequence. By the way, my interview techniques haev greatly improved. Your advice was good, be their friend. Not only do you get to hear some amazing stories, but you have another friend, and one that will be a very loyal friend at that.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 15, 2005)

Evan, will this book be published eventually?


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## Anonymous (Jan 15, 2005)

You also have to understand the grief and sense of loss felt by so many because of the greed and ego of the German and Japanese.

Perhaps you are 3rd generation post-war, and did not see the depth of feelings about this subject in your parents hearts. It is hard to completely forgive the aggressors for their viscious behavior in a war of expansionism. 

When it comes to the Germans, I feel that anyone who actively participated in the Nazi party disgraced themselves for eternity. For the Japanese it is a little different, as their culture was cruel going back hundreds of years, but still those who participated in any of the atrocities in China or Burma have stained thier souls forever.

It is important that these peoples' memories be as the supporters of evil that they were, so that future generations know that history does not forget.

=S=

Lunatic


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## evangilder (Jan 15, 2005)

If I can keep cranking, I am looking to get it out by the end of the year. I write alot anyway, and these stories are fascinating, so I have a vested interest to get them out for others to read. I am editing and adding to one tomorrow after another interview with Bernie Schneider. He was awarded the Silver Star in Italy. He had a "million dollar wound", shrapnel in his foot. Yet, he returned to his unit, just in time for the Anzio landing! I will give you a bit of a teaser though. He was awarded the Silver Star for facing down enemy fire to retreive 6 of his wounded comrades and bring them to safety and to get medical attention. He braved the enemy fire 6 times to get his buddies, one by one. This was AFTER being wounded himself in the initial attack. 

Yet he still says it was "no big deal"! That is one hell of a guy!


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## plan_D (Jan 15, 2005)

Japanese culture was evil for hundreds of years, what? Anyway, my Grandad was in Burma and he could never forgive the Japanese. It's perfectly acceptable, I understand and respect any opinion of a War Vet.


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## evangilder (Jan 15, 2005)

Yes, they should be respected. I know some guys that were in WWII and will not speak a word about it. But they will talk your ear off about anything else. I am a second generation. My father was too young, but his brother in laws all fought in the Pacific, one Marine and one a SeaBee. I have a bunch of other cousins that were mostly Marines in the Pacific. They do not harbor any bad feelings to Japanese today. I know there are some that do, and have met some. But while there were bad apples in the axis, the average foot-soldier was just a normal guy like you or I that was just doing his job.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 15, 2005)

RG, I entirely agree with what you say. My great uncle George, who fought in Normandy, has his reasons for eternally hating the Germans I'm sure. I respect the man, and regard him as a hero!
The deeds of the Nazi era must *never* be forgotten! I personally don't view Germans as evil, nor do I believe that every Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, or even Waffen SS member was evil. That is simply my own belief, and I wouldn't dream of preaching absolute forgiveness to the victims.

But a line must be drawn _somewhere_...shouldn't it?


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## evangilder (Jan 15, 2005)

I agree, I am talking about honoring the soldiers. There are obviously exceptions, but I mean the ones to honor are especially the enlisted and junior officers that were just doing what they were told to do. I don't think we should honor Hitler, or Goebbels, or any host of others. I mean soldiers in general. Remember, we are honoring the soldier, not the politician or the idea.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 16, 2005)

Well said!


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## Anonymous (Jan 16, 2005)

evangilder said:


> If I can keep cranking, I am looking to get it out by the end of the year. I write alot anyway, and these stories are fascinating, so I have a vested interest to get them out for others to read. I am editing and adding to one tomorrow after another interview with Bernie Schneider. He was awarded the Silver Star in Italy. He had a "million dollar wound", shrapnel in his foot. Yet, he returned to his unit, just in time for the Anzio landing! I will give you a bit of a teaser though. He was awarded the Silver Star for facing down enemy fire to retreive 6 of his wounded comrades and bring them to safety and to get medical attention. He braved the enemy fire 6 times to get his buddies, one by one. This was AFTER being wounded himself in the initial attack.
> 
> Yet he still says it was "no big deal"! That is one hell of a guy!



Shoulda gotten the Medal of Honor for that!

=S=

Lunatic


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## Anonymous (Jan 16, 2005)

evangilder said:


> I agree, I am talking about honoring the soldiers. There are obviously exceptions, but I mean the ones to honor are especially the enlisted and junior officers that were just doing what they were told to do. I don't think we should honor Hitler, or Goebbels, or any host of others. I mean soldiers in general. Remember, we are honoring the soldier, not the politician or the idea.



It depends on what they did. Remember, the German soldiers who first occupied Poland directly participated in the massacres. They didn't like it but they did it. It was not until it became apparent to the German high command that it was having a bad effect on Army moral that they transfered such duties to the SS. And even then, the Army officers set up things for the SS to come in and do the dirty work, knowing full well what was going to happen.

And the Japanese cruelties, espeically in China, were commited by the "average" soldiers.

I cannot afford any measure of honor to these people. Personally I think a wall of shame should be erected and every soldier who participated in such acts, orders or no, should be listed on that wall.

Edit:

But that should include soldiers from all sides. If it can be documented they participated, their name should go on the wall!

=S=

Lunatic


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## lesofprimus (Jan 16, 2005)

Great Idea....


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 16, 2005)

RG_Lunatic said:


> Personally I think a wall of shame should be erected and every soldier who participated in such acts, orders or no, should be listed on that wall.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> ...




Fair enough! If only such a thing were possible.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 16, 2005)

i don't think they should be put there if they were ordered to............


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## evangilder (Jan 16, 2005)

RG_Lunatic said:


> evangilder said:
> 
> 
> > If I can keep cranking, I am looking to get it out by the end of the year. I write alot anyway, and these stories are fascinating, so I have a vested interest to get them out for others to read. I am editing and adding to one tomorrow after another interview with Bernie Schneider. He was awarded the Silver Star in Italy. He had a "million dollar wound", shrapnel in his foot. Yet, he returned to his unit, just in time for the Anzio landing! I will give you a bit of a teaser though. He was awarded the Silver Star for facing down enemy fire to retreive 6 of his wounded comrades and bring them to safety and to get medical attention. He braved the enemy fire 6 times to get his buddies, one by one. This was AFTER being wounded himself in the initial attack.
> ...



I totally agree, and I wonder if that is what he was put in for. That is one of the reasons that I am going to tap the National Archives, I want to find his original medal citation/recommendation. Besides, to this day, he does not know who put him in for the medal. I want to find that out so he knows.


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## evangilder (Jan 16, 2005)

RG_Lunatic said:


> evangilder said:
> 
> 
> > I agree, I am talking about honoring the soldiers. There are obviously exceptions, but I mean the ones to honor are especially the enlisted and junior officers that were just doing what they were told to do. I don't think we should honor Hitler, or Goebbels, or any host of others. I mean soldiers in general. Remember, we are honoring the soldier, not the politician or the idea.
> ...



I agree that there were soldiers that committed atrocities, on all sides. I am not saying we honor the soldiers who went into Nanking, or any other horrible thing. I am talking about the ordinary soldiers. I think most people realize that the ones being honored are the average Joes. Because if you have none because atrocities committed, then there wouldn't be any memorials, anywhere. I am not defending the inhumane actions of soldiers that have committed atrocities. I just think that a neutral "Brave soldiers died here, or in this war" with a brief account of the battle is sufficient. In the case of someplace like Nanking, you have a memorial for those that fell prey to the rampaging Japanese soldiers.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 16, 2005)

RG_Lunatic said:


> evangilder said:
> 
> 
> > I agree, I am talking about honoring the soldiers. There are obviously exceptions, but I mean the ones to honor are especially the enlisted and junior officers that were just doing what they were told to do. I don't think we should honor Hitler, or Goebbels, or any host of others. I mean soldiers in general. Remember, we are honoring the soldier, not the politician or the idea.
> ...



I too believe that any soldier that commits attrocities is shaming his country and himself. I believe these people should be hunted down and pay for there sins but you have to draw the line somewhere. You have to realize though that the vast majority of soldiers on any side, and I truely mean the vast majority did not commit horrific acts. The vast ammount were just soldiers doing there jobs as a soldier. They did not just go around killing innocent women and children and civilians, they did not go and massacre soldiers that had surrendured. You can not place the whole German and Japanese people in this group and you can not condemn them for what had happened. If you were to do this you would have to condemn the US for slavery and the way they treated the Native Americans, killing and driving them from there lands. You would have to condemn the British for the way they treated the Irish and the Scottish and the colonists in Africa and Asia. You would have to condemn the Russians for they way that Stalin and Lenin treated there own people. You would have to condemn the allied countrys also for the attrocities that there soldiers committed, though this was far fewer than the German soldiers. Basically the point I am trying to get it is that the German and the Japanese people did committ these acts as a whole, yes the party should be held responsible and the soldiers that committed the acts. Yes they should pay for there sins dearly but not the people and not the soldiers who fought for there country because it was there duty and an honor to do so. My Grandfather was a good man he was a Major in the Wehrmacht and fought in Stalingrad, my fathers adoptive father was a US soldier who landed on Omaha Beach. They died 1 week apart from one another and to the day they died they were friends. They were friends because they both were honorable men who fought for there country because it is what you did. You did what was expected of you. They did not hate each other because they were from opposing sides in a horrific war. The point I am trying to get at and please try to understand is that the soldiers themselves can not be put in the same pot as the evil men who did the horrific things, and neither was the people themselves.


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## evangilder (Jan 16, 2005)

Well put, Adler. I agree.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 16, 2005)

I dont know it is just how I feel as a soldier myself. I believe that the soldiers here in Iraq should be the same also. The soldiers that committed those terrible deeds at the Abu Grabie (i can never spell it or say it correctly) prison are the same they shamed themselve and their country. I believe they should pay dearly for what they did. They were not soldiers when they committed those acts they were not human.


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## evangilder (Jan 16, 2005)

They were certainly not soldiers then, they were more like the common thugs that we are trying to rid that place of. I do think that the incident should never have gotten to the press though. Things like that need to be handled internally, otherwise the press wets their pants and drools all over themselves. Thankfully, I have enough reports from non-media sources of the good things happening to their. Unfortunately, the mainstream press reports only the bad stuff. But I will stand behind all you guys over there that are fighting the good fight. You have my support, always.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 16, 2005)

The process of punishment has already begun, according to the news.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 16, 2005)

evangilder said:


> They were certainly not soldiers then, they were more like the common thugs that we are trying to rid that place of. I do think that the incident should never have gotten to the press though. Things like that need to be handled internally, otherwise the press wets their pants and drools all over themselves. Thankfully, I have enough reports from non-media sources of the good things happening to their. Unfortunately, the mainstream press reports only the bad stuff. But I will stand behind all you guys over there that are fighting the good fight. You have my support, always.



I agree with you fully. The press only sees the bad things that happen. The good things that we are doing are never told and no one ever knows about it and no one understands what is going on over here. And it is a shame. And thankyour for your support.


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## Erich (Jan 16, 2005)

The media has exploited this to the full guys. Abu Grave as it should be called. Heck how do we know that our guys are not getting the same treatment, at least we haven't beheaded anyone recently. Granted we should not lower ourselves to their form of system but you get my drift. Torture and inquisitions have happened since the first days of man waring upon one another......it sucks but it is a fact of life. I would rather not take sides one or the other concerning the prison sitiuation but those guys in our care are dogs, no not even that good, slugs is more fitting, and Mosul should be turned to glass or better yet scrpaed off and turned into the largest Velodrome in the world.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 16, 2005)

I would rather not state my opinion on those matters of Mosul or what not because I feel that we should not lower ourselves to there standard.


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## Erich (Jan 16, 2005)

Eagle you shouldn,t anyway since you are serving in our armed forces. I've been there done that and have been to Israel, Jordan back in the 1980's. Yeah I have sepcial information which I will not reveal by myself or by whom. simple point and this is getting way off topic. those mid-east folk want our entrails hung on a wall........

accept it or not

v/r and thanks for serving soldier !

Erich ~


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 16, 2005)

I will not deny that but I dont think that everyone of them is like that. I have friends in Germany who are islamic and muslim and they are good people and do not wish harm upon anyone.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 16, 2005)

AWWWWwwwwww.. Isnt it sad.... Poor little Iraqi soldiers and terrorists and insurgents get stripped naked and piled on one another, and pose for pictures....

Awwwwwww... I feel so sorry for them.... Thats so very embarrassing and cruel.... All the Americans that were involved should be killed.... Oh, too harsh you say???

How about life in prison???? Would that make all u tenderhearted people of this world happy????

Gimme a break... Some good guys are getting burned on this BS.....

Oh, and BTW, just as a reminder, when u go to a US Penitentiary for any length of time, unless u are a monster, u WILL get raped... Forcibly.... 

Brutally....

And thats just jail, not WAR...... Did anyone forget that these were POWs and as such, had information inside of them that could save countless Allied and NATO lives???

100's of lives maybe???????? Who knows... Saving just one American, or Brit or Czech or Aussie or Spanish Life is more important to me than the damn feelings of a bunch of guys WHO ARE TRYING TO KILL ME AND MY FREAKING COMRADES IN ARMS!!!!!!!!

Now that I have vented....
What they did was stupid and wrong, and they deserve to be punished under the Uniform Code of Military Justice... 

BY THE MILITARY!!!!!! Not all of Mother Earths population.....

This whole thing has been blown way outta proportion by the Media....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 16, 2005)

Please dont take me wrong I have no sympothy for terrorists or the insurgents that I fight everyday. I wish them to burn in hell. I just think we should be better then them and not let ourselves drop to there level. And as you said it was blown way out of proportion, I agree, and as Lightning Guy has said I dont think the Press should have found out about this they need to be punished by the Military and no one else.


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## Erich (Jan 16, 2005)

hmmmmmmmmmm well understand my positon even if I am not as vocal as friend Les. I have seen what was done in the 1980's and before in Israel and it has not changed no-matter whom you call Syrian, Iranian, Iraqui, Phillistine-Palestinian, Lebanonese, etc........they want us dead.

Personally I would love to see ALL mis-fit media removed from the battle-zone. As Americans we have been tainted even if you watch Fox news. the truth is not being told, never has and never will

two £ for ya


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 16, 2005)

I agree with you dont take me wrong.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 16, 2005)

Erich is obviously being alittle more coy with his prior military service than I am, or should I say governement service... Ive bounced all over the Middle East.... Seen alot of very bad things, as it sounds like Erich has done as well....

I share his sentiments exactly.... WAR IS HELL, GETTING STRIPPED IS NOTHING.......

And I think that embedded reporters are stupid and a waste of resources.... Instead of a 3 news people (reporter, cameraman, soundman), add another 2 heavy weapons operators and another FAC...........


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 16, 2005)

Or they should give each soldier a cheapo digital camera, and have a couple of real battlefield photographers, like in Vietnam.

The guys that got in there with the GI's, but were armed with nothing but film...

One of the various forms of "balls," just like the FAC's (Ravens) in Laos flying Cessnas...


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## Erich (Jan 16, 2005)

Les is correct, lets look at what the so-called mild mannered reproter has done since 9-11 over in Iraq.,,,, true brought us reality in grim form when we enetered Baghdad, shooting up anything that looked suspicious but then whate happened to the support these noble lads gave our boys ?

Hmmmmmmm abu grave as i call it. The bak lash with the one Marine when he shot the guy "faking" death, all recorded, and the news clown was ballsy enough to include everything he could on the soldier, his unit, CO and the whole incident for all the world to see and give the military a terrible name. It has been in our face since we entered Baghdad, even slowly but surely capturing that turd "Sadamn", isolated certain black guard units and also smashing "Al-quesida" from time to time. So much for the media promoting a will of good from our side and the fredom we are trying to present for these poor Iraqui people. I remember Vietnam all too well, and it is really hard I will say to differentiate between the north/south Vietnamese just as Eagle would probably say, Iraqui, Iranian and Syrian, lebanese. you can't tell even with the dress of the locals, and out of countrymen. You are always on the go, intense, covering your back and your buddies 24/7. It's terrible and it sucks, and it's war........

ok I am ranting....I have conflicting opinion's of our move in the mid-east but we are over there now and we need to do our best to get things under control under this administration and support our guys 1000 %. If we don't do this then we are just slime as we were back in the late 1960's-early 70's when Nixon called us all home.....with a job unfinished

yo Huh ~ Erich


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 16, 2005)

I've never been in the Army or Special Forces and hence I can't speak with any kind of experience on the grim realities of true "in your face" blood and guts, shoot 'em up, blow 'em up combat.

I _am_ all too familiar with one inescapable truth, however: Public opinion and the military *do not mix!!*


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## lesofprimus (Jan 16, 2005)

Ive found that in the Middle East, the only way to know whose side the locals are on is by recognizing which way their weapon is pointing.... Either that or the incoming fire.....

Heres a great video clip of some moronic Iraqi with an RPG who doesnt have the faintest clue what "Cover" means....


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 16, 2005)

Yep. He's dead.


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## Medvedya (Jan 16, 2005)

Not nice, but what do you expect?


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## Erich (Jan 16, 2005)

it almost appeared the guy was still smoking after he hit the dirt ?

hey U guys ever see the night film footage of 5-6 idiots hangin around their Ford Truck with a heavy mg on the back.  they are just stooging and you can hear in the background an A-10 pilot getting the ok to eliminate the visual. within 3 seconds it's over. those US 30mm's are just nothing but drastic. the truck goes up with two big explosions and debris catches these guys in the back. thinking about this now it was a good chance the truck had some home-made bombs or something explosive in the bed....


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 16, 2005)

I may have seen that one. It sounds familiar.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 16, 2005)

Never seen that footage.....


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## Erich (Jan 16, 2005)

didn't want to say it but Fox news just came on stating some of my buddies have been doing ops in Iran since last summer............I'll just let your mind wander as to what they are doing over there 

I luv Stealth 8) 

ok another footage if you have seen it. couple of our boyz flying over at night in jets and hit a bridge with a big boy bomb. smacked right down the pike on this puppy blowing the far end off and the bridge collapses in the drink-Euphrates. what is interesting as you watch the camera on one of the jets, a lonely car puts it in gear and tries to make it across the bridge..............poof !


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## Anonymous (Jan 16, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> i don't think they should be put there if they were ordered to............



It depends on how heinous the acts were. I don't care if the Japanese soldiers were ordered to kill all the men and rape and kill all the women in Nanking or not. Nor do I think it's relevant that the German soldiers were ordered to take jews, including the elderly and children, and shoot them in the back of the head and bury them in a ditch in Poland. Such acts are unforgivable and having been "ordered" to do them is no excuse. If we accept such excuses, then only the actual leader (Hitler or Hirohito) could ever be considered actually responsible.

Furthermore, it defeats the point. The point is to say to posterity that if you commit such acts, even if ordered to do so, you and your descendants will have to live with the shame of your actions.

"I was ordered to do it" is not an acceptable justification. It cannot be!

=S=

Lunatic


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## evangilder (Jan 16, 2005)

No! Ones descendants should not shoulder the burden for something commited by their previous generations. That is absolute CRAP. If my father had done something bad, he should be punished. Should I be condemned because of something he did? NO way.


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## Erich (Jan 16, 2005)

remember that the statement goes back to mid-east/biblical times. A Father is judged ans so are his descnednets back possible through several generations. this is not uncommon in certain mid-east nations today. will agree with =S=, you pay the price for your individual deeds against mankind in non-justifiable ways.


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## evangilder (Jan 16, 2005)

But I am talking about us, not the middle east. If I do something heinous and terrible, it has nothing to do with me son. Now if I do something to corrupt him into doing something heinous or horrible, then that is different.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 16, 2005)

By that kind of logic, Germany should never have been allowed to exist following WWII, and all Germans should be marked as Nazis to this day.

Preposterous!


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## evangilder (Jan 16, 2005)

Good point NS.


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## Anonymous (Jan 16, 2005)

What it would mean is that future generations would, most likely, change their last names. How many Hitler's, Goering's, or Capone's have you met?

This means a person committing such acts is effectively cut off from the memories of their descendants. The thought of such a fate may deter individuals in the future, or at least make them think twice before participating in such acts. And this is worth the minor costs to a few individuals who must either change their last names or live with public knowledge that their ancestors were evil.

I'm not saying we should punish the descendants in any way, just that the individuals who commit such acts should be remembered and vilified appropriately. That may have some minor consequences for their descendants, but that's the breaks. Had their ancestors succeeded in their endeavors, they would not have had a second thought about enjoying the benefits that befell them, that's for sure!

=S=

Lunatic


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## evangilder (Jan 16, 2005)

Okay, now that makes sense. I agree that those who perpetrated these acts should be remembered for the bad things they did as a reference for what NOT to do.


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## Erich (Jan 16, 2005)

Nonskimmer, your thoughts on Germany still hold water for the 75-90 plus age group whether here or in Deutschland. Very common logic for some. Germany should of been blown off the face of the earth and also should of Japan, not with 2 atomic/atom bombs, but a systematic pulverization if you will............. I have some real issues with former pres. FDR but won;t bore you with that.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 16, 2005)

Erich, I can assure you they are not my thoughts on Germany.
I was stating an example based on a certain kind of logic, nothing more.


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## Anonymous (Jan 16, 2005)

Erich said:


> Nonskimmer, your thoughts on Germany still hold water for the 75-90 plus age group whether here or in Deutschland. Very common logic for some. Germany should of been blown off the face of the earth and also should of Japan, not with 2 atomic/atom bombs, but a systematic pulverization if you will............. *I have some real issues with former pres. FDR *but won;t bore you with that.



Ummm... don't you mean Truman? FDR died on April 12, 1945, before VE day.

I cannot see why you'd have "issues", both the German and Japanese people were treated better after the war than they had any right to expect. Unless perhaps you are of the opinion that the male population, or some proportion of it, should have been taken out and shot?

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Jan 16, 2005)

I've got some real interesting evidence against our former pres with his rasist views and pro Soviet leanings............Hoover it is not


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## Erich (Jan 16, 2005)

I meant Trumann, entschuldigung bitte


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2005)

RG_Lunatic said:


> the lancaster kicks ass said:
> 
> 
> > i don't think they should be put there if they were ordered to............
> ...



I completely disagree with you. How can you ask the descendants to carry the burdon. Basically you are saying that I and all of my family should be labeled Nazis and pay for what has happened. because my Grandfather served in the Wehrmacht. He did not commit any crimes but he seved in a military that was. If this is what you are meaning then you are a hippocrat, ignorant and filled with BS. Then you need to pay for the Native Americans and the Slavary. But you have already forgotten about that too haven't you? You can not ask todays generation to pay for wrongs done in the past. My family as long with every German family I know are good people and mean no harm to anyone, yet you think they should be condemded forever? Get real man, and before you condemn Germany and Japans modern generation think of your own past.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2005)

RG_Lunatic said:


> What it would mean is that future generations would, most likely, change their last names. How many Hitler's, Goering's, or Capone's have you met?
> 
> This means a person committing such acts is effectively cut off from the memories of their descendants. The thought of such a fate may deter individuals in the future, or at least make them think twice before participating in such acts. And this is worth the minor costs to a few individuals who must either change their last names or live with public knowledge that their ancestors were evil.
> 
> ...



Sorry I made that other post before I read this one. I agree with you that the people who commited acts should be remembered and shamed and shunned for entire history. If they are alived they should be found and punished dearly, but I disagree with you on the punishing of descendents. Especially descendents that were born after the war was over. Why punish them they had nothing to do with it. Custers descendents (to be honest I dont know if he even has any) are not being punished for the massacres of the Native Americans (and mind you him and his troops were told to do so also which does not change anything). Do you see my point, the later Generations can not change what was done nor did they have anything to do with it.


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## Anonymous (Jan 17, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I completely disagree with you. How can you ask the descendants to carry the burdon. Basically you are saying that I and all of my family should be labeled Nazis and pay for what has happened. because my Grandfather served in the Wehrmacht. He did not commit any crimes but he seved in a military that was. If this is what you are meaning then you are a hippocrat, ignorant and filled with BS. Then you need to pay for the Native Americans and the Slavary. But you have already forgotten about that too haven't you? You can not ask todays generation to pay for wrongs done in the past. My family as long with every German family I know are good people and mean no harm to anyone, yet you think they should be condemded forever? Get real man, and before you condemn Germany and Japans modern generation think of your own past.



No, I'm saying if your Grandfather served in a unit known to have committed atrocities at the time when they committed the atrocities, then his name should bear the shame of his behavior. If his descendants feel shame for his acts, that is up to them.

It is not a matter of asking today's generation to pay for past mistakes, it's a matter of disgracing those who committed those mistakes fully and completely. Part of that, perhaps the biggest part, is to have their descendants dishonor them.

As for our own past, more and more we are showing the lack of honor in the 7th Cavalry. In the 50's and 60's, Custar and his hoard were portrayed as hero's, today they are portrayed as villains. The incident at Wounded Knee was portrayed as a battle, now it is portrayed as the massacre it was. I would agree, these men's names should also be on such a wall of shame. As for slave owners, that is probably simply going back to far for such a thing to be on a wall of shame. Very few Southerners actually owned slaves and most families that did are well identified and have to live with that shame if they can be referenced to those ancestors.

I do not think the modern generations should be condemned forever. But condemning the behavior of someone's ancestors is not condemnation of the descendants, it's just an unpleasantness they have to live with. Look for example at Arnold Schwartzenaguer - his father was a member of the SS, this is public knowlege, but he was still elected Govenor of California. What the descendants should not be able to do however, is to present their ancestors as honorable men if they were not.

If a wall of shame is not going to be created for past evil-doer's (and it's not), one should be created for the present and the future. People will think twice about en aging in massacres and such if they believe their descendants will have to live with the shame of their acts.

=S=

Lunatic


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2005)

I really dont think anyone today presents any anscestors that may have committed terrible acts as heros or as honorable men. I dont see this happening anywhere or by anyone. I have an uncle who was in the Waffen SS. I do not know if he committed acts nor will I ever ask him nor do I ever wish to ask him because I know him today as the great man that he is, the man who is carrying, kind and honorable. So as far as I am concerned in his case the past is the past. I hope and pray that he never did anything wrong or dishonorable but I do not wish to ask or find out. I hope you dont see that is a crime, and if you do well to be honest I dont care. Please dont take me wrong I too believe that people who committed acts like this are not human and should be condemned for life and pay for there sins but I do not believe in judging or condemning a future generation. As for my Grandfather even if he was in a unit that did such things, as long as he did not commit them I dont think he should have to answer for anything. What would have been able to do, stand up and say somthing? If he had he would have been most surely killed. But as for my Grandfather I know he did not. He was a civilian Doctor when the war started. He was searching for cures to Tuberculosus (which ultimatly killed him later in life). He as drafted into the Wehrmacht in 1940 and made a medical officer. He was captured in Stallingrad and spent the rest of the war in a Soviet POW camp until 1945 when luckily he was transfered to an American POW camp and was put on trial at the Nurnburg Trials because he was doctor and all military doctors were put on trial. He was found innocent as he was and was allowed to return home. Not that it really matters this story but I think it is an interesting WW2 story. Anyways I do not disagree with you that they should go unpunished or condemned but I just think the modern generations need to be left out of it, especially since I am one of the modern generations of Germans.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2005)

Erich said:


> Les is correct, lets look at what the so-called mild mannered reproter has done since 9-11 over in Iraq.,,,, true brought us reality in grim form when we enetered Baghdad, shooting up anything that looked suspicious but then whate happened to the support these noble lads gave our boys ?
> 
> Hmmmmmmm abu grave as i call it. The bak lash with the one Marine when he shot the guy "faking" death, all recorded, and the news clown was ballsy enough to include everything he could on the soldier, his unit, CO and the whole incident for all the world to see and give the military a terrible name. It has been in our face since we entered Baghdad, even slowly but surely capturing that turd "Sadamn", isolated certain black guard units and also smashing "Al-quesida" from time to time. So much for the media promoting a will of good from our side and the fredom we are trying to present for these poor Iraqui people. I remember Vietnam all too well, and it is really hard I will say to differentiate between the north/south Vietnamese just as Eagle would probably say, Iraqui, Iranian and Syrian, lebanese. you can't tell even with the dress of the locals, and out of countrymen. You are always on the go, intense, covering your back and your buddies 24/7. It's terrible and it sucks, and it's war........
> 
> ...



You are absolutely correct. You can not tell who your enemy is or who is friendly. You have to constantly be alert and on the go. Each and Everytime my aircraft has been engaged by small arms fire, rockets, SA missles or RPG's it was buy people dressed like farmers or simple people in a field pretending to be farming and these people are everywhere so you never know who you are engaging or who wants to kill you. It is actually quite frightening.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 17, 2005)

Christ.  
I hope you continue to stay safe, buddy! Good luck!


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## Medvedya (Jan 17, 2005)

RG_Lunatic said:


> People will think twice about engaging in massacres and such if they believe their descendants will have to live with the shame of their acts.
> 
> =S=
> 
> Lunatic



Yeah right. That is a stupendously naive hope.

But aside from that, I've just been reading through all of the above, and found I could draw a parallel with my great-grandfather, who fought in the Boer War. 

Do I deny that we created the very first concentration camps in that conflict and that many Boer woman and children died in them? 

Emphatically not! I studied the conflict a while ago in a history module, and like to feel I have a reasonable and unbiased grasp of the causes and effects of that conflict.

Its relationship to my personal family history is tenuous at best however. Regardless of the questionable nature of the Boer War, he went out there as a Corporal in the East Lancs Regiment. He wasn't a General, or a politician, or a business executive. He just went and did his bit and was lucky enough to get to come home. So, I'm not going to be chucking his medals or ammo bag in the dustbin anytime soon, and no, I don't 'live with shame'. I'm actually rather proud of him. 

Incidentally, afterwards he joined the St. Johns Ambulance, and would treat people who were unable to pay for the doctor, which would suggest he was more into patching people up than killing them.

But you can't put that sort of thing on a spreadsheet can you?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2005)

Hey I am short timing it here in Iraq now! I made it a whole year without a scratch I am going to make it home!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2005)

Medvedya said:


> RG_Lunatic said:
> 
> 
> > People will think twice about engaging in massacres and such if they believe their descendants will have to live with the shame of their acts.
> ...



I agree with you fully. I know full hand that my Grandfather did not committ any attrocities in WW2 but I am not ashamed that he served in the German Army and am very proud of him and will never throw away his uniform or his medals and awards that my Grandmother gave me.


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## evangilder (Jan 17, 2005)

Have you got your short-timer calendar displayed proudly?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2005)

Oh I sure do, and I love walking around with my patch on so people know that I am one of the ones going home and have not just gotten hier.


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## evangilder (Jan 17, 2005)

How many days until the "bag drag"? If you can't answer that because of OPSEC, it's cool.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2005)

I really cant tell you because of OPSEC and also because I am not sure. We have a date given but it all depends on what happens in the elections.


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## evangilder (Jan 17, 2005)

Got it. I am sure I speak for all of us when I wish you a quick and safe return. 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2005)

Thank you and it could not come sooner.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 17, 2005)

Boy, I remember those shortimer days.....

God how I hated them.....


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## evangilder (Jan 17, 2005)

Me too, I am just thankful I didn't have to spend a year in Iraq on that shortimer list. I am even more thankful that we have guys like Adler that over there doing their duty. Even though I wasn't a Marine, I say Semper Fi. Because it fits for all soldiers since it means Always Faithful.


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## Medvedya (Jan 18, 2005)

What does this 'shortimer' patch look like though? Is it just a pin badge, or something sewn onto the tunic?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 18, 2005)

nice siggy les.............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 20, 2005)

Medvedya said:


> What does this 'shortimer' patch look like though? Is it just a pin badge, or something sewn onto the tunic?



I was not actually refering to a "short timer" patch. What I was talking about is in the US army every unit has its own patch. Mine is the 1st Infantry Divisions "Big Red One". The patch is worn by regulation on the left sleeve. When a soldier has been to combat he is authorized to wear a 2nd Patch of the unit that he went to combat with on his right sleeve, so now you wear 2 of them. When you leave your unit the one patch on the left sleeve goes away and you wear the patch of the unit that you are now in but the so called "combat patch" on your right sleeve does not go away, you always wear that to show that you have gone to combat with them. Right now on the FOB that I am deployed to in Iraq if you have a combat patch it means you have been here for a year and if you dont it means you just got here. I like to look down at mine and know that I am going home, and I will be passing the torch on to someone else.


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## Medvedya (Jan 20, 2005)

Ah, got ya.

The Lee Marvin film was pretty good I though. But you know in the film he gets the idea for the Divisions name and patch from a chance meeting with a French soldier in WW1? Is that based on a real event or just movie myth?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 20, 2005)

Do you mean the Big Red One? The story of the big red one. We are the most famous "Old" Division in the US Army. The original name was the 1st Army Expeditionary Force and was the unit that went to France in WW1 and it landed on the Beaches of Normandy. The 1st ID has participated in all of America's conflicts and has historically won the most battles. The story that is told to us is the 1 on the patch was changed to the color red to commemorate the blood that was spilled by our division, which I am not sure if this is true. I will have to look up the history again.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 20, 2005)

Here is the History of the Big Red One Patch that I have recieved from the Big Red One society:



> Two legends have emerged in answer to the question about the origins of the Big Red One shoulder patch.
> The first story says that during World War I, First Division supply trucks were of English Manufacture, so the drivers painted a huge figure "1" on each truck to distinguish their vehicles from those of the other Allies. Later, First Division Engineers carried this measure a step further by sewing a red patch on their sleeves on which was placed the number "1."
> 
> The second, more-often quoted tale involves a general and a lieutenant. According to this version, during the build-up and training days of 1917, a general officer decided that the Division needed a suitable shoulder sleeve insignia. He proceeded to cut a crude numeral "1" from a ragged suit of his flannel underwear. When a brash young lieutenant saw the red numeral, he shouted, "the general's underwear is showing!" The general shouted back, "all right young man, if you're so smart, come up with something better." The lieutenant produced a prototype of today's patch, using a piece of cloth (probably grey) from a captured soldier's uniform on which he placed the red "1".
> ...


 




> World War I
> The First Expeditionary Division was constituted in May 1917 from Army units then in service on the Mexican border and at various Army posts throughout the United States. On June 8, 1917 it was officially organized in New York, New York. This date is the 1st Infantry Division's official birthday. The first units sailed from New York and Hoboken, N.J., June 14, 1917. Throughout the remainder of the year, the rest of the Division followed, landing at St. Nazaire, France, and Liverpool, England. After a brief stay in rest camps, the troops in England proceeded to France, landing at Le Havre. The last unit arrived in St. Nazaire on Dec. 22. Upon arrival in France, the Division, less its artillery, was assembled in the First (Gondrecourt) training area, and the artillery was at Le Valdahon.
> On the 4th of July, the 2nd Battalion, 16th Infantry, paraded through the streets of Paris to bolster the sagging French spirits. At Lafayette's tomb, one of General Pershing's staff uttered the famous words, "Lafayette, we are here!" Two days later, July 6, the First Expeditionary Division was redesignated the First Infantry Division. On the morning of Oct. 23, the first American shell of the war was sent screaming toward German lines by Battery C, 6th Field Artillery. Two days later, the 2nd Bn., 16th Inf., suffered the first American casualties of the war.
> 
> ...



The 1st ID believes in its rich history and still today bases everything off of its accomplishments in the past. For instance many of our camps here in Iraq are named after famous battles that 1 ID fought in such as Camp Normandy. Our Headquarters is called FOB Danger and the 1 ID newsletter is called Danger Foward from its history in WW2. It is really neat to be part of such a historical unit and one can take pride that you are carrying the torch just like many brave men before had.


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## Medvedya (Jan 20, 2005)

It looks like they live up to their name by consistently being the first American troops to arrive! - good stuff!

Funny that the patch should have originally been made out of German cloth - bit spooky in your case!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 20, 2005)

No I think it is interesting. We are very rich in tradition and history. It is actually neat and the division prides itself in it. Soldiers actually put in for assignment to be sent to the 1st Infantry Division. We keep these traditions alive and never forget the ones who gave there lives wearing the patch.

For each of these campains we fly a streamer from our flag.

Campaign Participation Credit

World War I: Montdidier-Noyon; Aisne-Marne; St. Mihiel; Meuse-Argonne; Lorraine 1917; Lorraine 1918; Picardy 1918

World War II: Algeria-French Morocco (with arrowhead); Tunisia; Sicily (with arrowhead); Normandy (with arrowhead); Northern France; Rhineland; Ardennes-Alsace; Central Europe

Vietnam: Defense; Counteroffensive; Counteroffensive, Phase II; Counteroffensive, Phase III; Tet Counteroffensive; Counteroffensive, Phase IV; Counteroffensive, Phase V; Counteroffensive, Phase VI; Tet 69/Counteroffensive; Summer-Fall 1969; Winter-Spring 1970

Southwest Asia: Defense of Saudi Arabia; Liberation and Defense of Kuwait; Cease-Fire

And these decorations we still wear on our uniform in honor of the past accomplishments.

Decorations

Meritorious Unit Commendation (Army) for VIETNAM 1968

Meritorious Unit Commendation (Army) for SOUTHWEST ASIA

Army Superior Unit Award for 1997

French Croix de Guerre with Palm, World War II for KASSERINE

French Croix de Guerre with Palm, World War II for NORMANDY

French Croix de Guerre, World War II, Fourragere

Belgian Fourragere 1940

Cited in the Order of the Day of the Belgian Army for action at MONS

Cited in the Order of the Day of the Belgian Army for action at EUPEN-MALMEDY

Republic of Vietnam Cross of Gallantry with Palm for VIETNAM 1965-1968

Republic of Vietnam Civil Action Honor Medal, First Class for VIETNAM 1965-1970

And here is a list of the soldiers who have given the ultimate sacrifice from the 1 ID here in Iraq and may they never be forgotten:

SSG Christopher E. Cutchall
D Troop, 4th Cavalry
September 29, 2003
2LT Todd J. Bryant
C Company, 1-34 Armor
October 31, 2003
SSG Gary L. Collins
A Company, 1-16 Infantry
November 8, 2003
SSG Mark D. Vasquez
A Company, 1-16 Infantry
November 8, 2003
SPC Josph L. Lister
B Company, 1-34 Armor
November 20, 2003
SPC Thomas J. Sweet II
Service Battery, 1-5 Field Artillery
November 27, 2003
SPC Uday Singh
C Company, 1-34 Armor
December 1, 2003
SGT Ryan C. Young
A Company, 1-16 Infantry
December 2, 2003
SGT Jarrod W. Black
B Company, 1-34 Armor
December 12, 2003
SGT Dennis A. Corral
C Company, 1st Engineer Battalion
January 1, 2004
SFC Gregory B. Hicks
B Troop, 1-9 Cavalry
January 8, 2004
SPC William R. Sturges Jr.
B Troop, 1-9 Cavalry
January 24, 2004
SPC Jason K. Chappell
B Troop, 1-9 Cavalry
January 24, 2004
SGT Randy S. Rosenberg
B Troop, 1-9 Cavalry
January 24, 2004
CPT Matthew J. August
B Company, 1st Engineer Battalion
January 27, 2004
SFC James T. Hoffman
B Company, 1st Engineer Battalion
January 27, 2004
SGT Travis A. Moothart
B Company, 1st Engineer Battalion
January 27, 2004
SSG Sean G. Landrus
B Company, 1st Engineer Battalion
January 29, 2004
PFC Nichole M. Frye
415th Civil Affairs Battalion
February 16, 2004
2LT Jeffrey C. Graham
C Company, 1-34 Armor
February 19, 2004
SPC Roger G. Ling
C Company, 1-34 Armor
February 19, 2004
SFC Richard S. Gottfried
HHC, Division Support Command
March 9, 2004
SSG Joe L. Dunigan Jr.
B Company, 1-16 Infantry
March 11, 2004
SPC Christopher K. Hill
B Company, 1-16 Infantry
March 11, 2004
CPT John F. Kurth
B Company, 1-18 Infantry
March 13, 2004
SPC Jason C. Ford
B Company, 1-18 Infantry
March 13, 2004
SPC Jocelyn L. Carrasquillo
HHC, 1-120 Infantry
March 13, 2004
SPC Tracy L. Laramore
B Company, 1-18 Infantry
March 17, 2004
SPC Clint R. Matthews
B Company, 1-18 Infantry
March 19, 2004
PFC Ernest H. Sutphin
B Battery, 2-11 Field Artillery
March 19, 2004
PFC Jason C. Ludlam
HHC, 2-2 Infantry
March 19, 2004
PFC Dustin L. Kreider
B Company, 1-26 Infantry
March 21, 2004
SPC Adam D. Froehlich
C Battery, 1-6 Field Artillery
March 25, 2004
1LT Doyle M. Hufstedler
B Company, 1st Engineer Battalion
March 31, 2004
SPC Sean R. Mitchell
B Company, 1st Engineer Battalion
March 31, 2004
SPC Michael G. Karr Jr.
B Company, 1st Engineer Battalion
March 31, 2004
PFC Cleston C. Raney
B Company, 1st Engineer Battalion
March 31, 2004
PVT Brandon L. Davis
B Company, 1st Engineer Battalion
March 31, 2004
PFC John D. Amos II
C Company, 1-21 Infantry
April 4, 2004
SGT Lee D. Todacheene
HHC, 1-77 Armor
April 6, 2004
SFC Marvin L. Miller
C Troop, 1-4 Cavalry
April 7, 2004
SPC Isaac M. Nieves
A Company, 82nd Engineer Battalion
April 8, 2004
SFC Raymond E. Jones
C Company, 1-7 Field Artillery
April 9, 2004
SSG Toby W. Mallet
C Company, 1-7 Field Artillery
April 9, 2004
SPC Allen J. Vandayburg
C Company, 2-2 Infantry
April 9, 2004
SPC Peter G. Enos
HHB, 1-7 Field Artillery
April 9, 2004
SGT William C. Eckhar t
F Troop, 4th Cavalry
April 10, 2004
PFC Nathan P. Brown
C Company, 2-108 Infantry
April 11, 2004
SSG Victor A. Rosaleslomeli
A Company, 2-2 Infantry
April 13, 2004
SGT Christopher Ramirez
B Company, 1-16 Infantry
April 14, 2004
SPC Richard K. Trevithick
C Company, 9th Engineer Battalion
April 14, 2004
SGT Brian M. Wood
A Company, 9th Engineer Battalion
April 16, 2004
SPC Marvin A. Camposiles
HHC, 1-26 Infantry
April 17, 2004
PFC Shawn C. Edwards
B Company, 121st Signal Battalion
April 23, 2004
SPC Martin W. Kondor
A Company, 1-63 Armor
April 29, 2004
SGT Joshua S. Ladd
367th Maintenance Company
April 30, 2004
SPC Trevor A. Win’e
24th Quartermaster Company
May 1, 2004
CPT John E. Tipton
HHC, 1-16 Infantry
May 2, 2004
SSG Todd E. Nunes
A Company, 1-21 Infantry
May 2, 2004
CPT Christopher J. Kenny
F Troop, 4th Cavalry
May 3, 2004
SSG Marvin R. Sprayberry III
HHC, 2-2 Infantry
May 3, 2004
SGT Gregor y L. Wahl
F Troop, 4th Cavalry
May 3, 2004
PFC Lyndon A. Marcus
F Troop, 4th Cavalry
May 3, 2004
SPC James J. Holmes
C Company, 141st Engineer Battalion
May 8, 2004
SPC Phillip D. Brown
B Company, 141st Engineer Battalion
May 8, 2004
SPC Marcos O. Nolasco
B Company, 1-33 Field Artillery
May 18, 2004
SSG Joseph P. Garyantes
B Company, 1-63 Armor
May 18, 2004
SPC Michael C. Campbell
HHT, 1-4 Cavalry
May 19, 2004
SPC Owen D. Witt
B Troop, 1-4 Cavalry
May 23, 2004
PFC Richard H. Rosas
3-62 Air Defense Artillery, 10th Mt. Div.
May 25, 2004
PFC James P. Lambert
3-63 Air Defense Artillery, 10th Mt. Div.
May 25, 2004
PFC Jeremiah D. Smith
A Company, 1-34 Armor
May 26, 2004
PFC Marcus J. Johnson
D Battery, 4-3 Air Defense Artillery
June 1, 2004
LCPL Todd J. Bolding
2-4-5 Marine Regiment
June 3, 2004
CPT Humayun S. M. Khan
HHC, 201st Forward Support Bn.
June 8, 2004
PFC Jason N. Lynch
C Company, 1-6 Field Artillery
June 18, 2004
CPL Tommy L. Parker Jr.
2-4-5 Marine Regiment
June 21,2004
LCPL Deshon E. Otey
2-4-5 Marine Regiment
June 21, 2004
LCPL Pedro Contreras
2-4-5 Marine Regiment
June 21, 2004
LCPL Juan Lopez
2-4-5 Marine Regiment
June 21, 2004
2LT Andre D. Tyson
A Company, 579th Engineer Battalion
June 22, 2004
SPC Patrick R. McCaffrey Sr.
A Company, 579th Engineer Battalion
June 22, 2004
CPT Christopher S. Cash
A Company, 1-120 Infantry
June 24, 2004
SPC Daniel A. Desens
A Company, 1-120 Infantry
June 24, 2004
2LT Brian D. Smith
A Company, 1-34 Armor
July 2, 2004
SPC Samuel R. Bowen
HSC, 216th Engineer Battalion
July 7, 2004
SGT Robert E. Colvill
HHC, 1-26 Infantry
July 8, 2004
SPC Sonny G. Sampler
HHC, 1-26 Infantry
July 8, 2004
SPC Collier Barcus
HHC, 1-26 Infantry
July 8, 2004
SPC William R. Emanuel
HHC, 1-26 Infantry
July 8, 2004
SPC Joseph M. Garmback Jr.
HHC, 1-26 Infantry
July 8, 2004
MSG Linda A. Tarango-Griess
267th Ordnance Company
July 11, 2004
SGT Jeremy J. Fischer
267th Ordnance Company
July 11, 2004
SGT Dustin W. Peters
314th Logistics Readiness Squadron
July 11, 2004
PFC Torry D. Harris
12th Chemical Company
July 13, 2004
SFC David A. Hartman
401st Transportation Company
July 17, 2004
PFC Nicholas H. Blodgett
A Troop, 1-4 Cavalry
July 21, 2004
SGT Tatijana Reed
66th Transportation Company
July 22, 2004
PFC Torey J. Dantzler
66th Transportation Company
July 22, 2004
SPC Nicholas Zangara
C Company, 1-7 Field Artillery
July 24, 2004
SGT Deforest L. Talbert
C Company, 1-150 Armor
July 27, 2004
PFC Joseph F. Herndon
A Company, 1-27 Infantry
July 29, 2004
SPC Anthony J. Dixon
B Troop, 1-4 Cavalry
August 1, 2004
SGT Armando Hernandez
B Troop, 1-4 Cavalry
August 1, 2004
SPC Donald R. McCune II
1-161 Infantry, 81st BCT
August 5, 2004
CPT Andrew R. Houghton
A Troop, 1-4 Cavalry
August 9, 2004
1LT Neil Anthony Santoriello
1-34 Armor, 1st BCT
August 13, 2004
SGT Daniel M. Shepherd
1-16 Infantry Regiment
August 15, 2004
1LT Charles L. Wilkins III
A Company, 216th Engineer Battalion
August 20, 2004
SPC Ryan A. Martin
A Company, 216th Engineer Battalion
August 20, 2004
2LT Matthew R. Stovall
401st Transportation Company, 167th CSG
August 22, 2004
SPC Charles L. Neeley
454th Transportation Company, 232nd CSG
August 25, 2004
A1C Carl L. Anderson
494th AEF, 835th CSG
August 29, 2004
SPC Joseph C. Thibodeaux
HHC, 2nd Brigade, 25th ID
September 1, 2004
SPC Brandon M. Read
125th Transportation Company, 167th CSG
September 6, 2004
SPC Michael Martinez
A Company, 1-6 Field Artillery
September 8, 2004
SPC Edgar P. Daclan Jr.
HHC, 1-18 Infantry
September 10, 2004
SPC Marva I. Gomez
A Company, 828th Finance Detachment
September 11, 2004
SPC Joshua J. Henry
A Company, 1-7 Field Artillery
September 20, 2004
SSG Lance J. Koenig
B Company, 141st Engineer Battalion
September 22, 2004
SPC Gregory A. Cox
C Company, 1-77 Armor
September 27, 2004
SFC Joselito Villanueva
C Company, 9th Engineer Battalion
September 27, 2004
SGT Tyler D. Prewitt
HHC, 2-2 Infantry
September 28, 2004
SSG Mike A. Dennie
106th Finance Battalion
September 29, 2004
SGT Michael Uvanni
B Company, 2-108 Infantry
October 1, 2004
PFC Mackenzie F. Callahan
E Company, 196th Cavalry
October 1, 2004
SPC Morgen N. Jacobs
B Company, 1-18 Infantry
October 6, 2004
SSG Michael S. Voss
HHC, 1-120 Infantry
October 8, 2004
SPC Andrew C. Ehrlich
C Company, 2-2 Infantry
October 18, 2004
SPC Segun F. Akintade
A Company, 2-108th Infantry
October 28, 2004
SGT Charles J. Webb
A Company, 82nd Engineer Battalion
November 3, 2004
SPC Cody L. Wentz
A Company, 141st Engineer Battalion
November 4, 2004
CSM Steven W. Faulkenburg
HHC, 2-2 Infantry
November 9, 2004
SSG Michael C. Ottolini
A Company, 579th Engineer Battalion
November 10, 2004
SGT James C. Matteson
HHC, 2-2 Infantry
November 12, 2004
1LT Edward D. Iwan
A Company, 2-2 Infantry
November 12, 2004
CPT Sean P. Sims
A Company, 2-2 Infantry
November 13, 2004
SPC Daniel J. McConnell
C Company, 1-27 Infantry
November 16, 2004
SFC Jose R. Flores-Mejia
25th Transportation Company
November 16, 2004
SGT Jack Bryant Jr.
A Company, 1-6 Field Artillery
November 20, 2004
SPC Jeremy E. Christensen
A Troop, 1-4 Cavalry
November 27, 2004
SGT Trinidad R. Martinezluis
B Company, 201st Forward Support Bn.
November 28, 2004
SPC Erik W. Hayes
HHC, 2-2 Infantry
November 29, 2004
SPC David P. Mahlenbrock
B Company, 65th Engineer Battalion
December 3, 2004
SSG Todd D. Olson
C Company, 1-128 Infantry
December 26, 2004
PFC Curtis Wooten
C Company, 1-77 Armor
January 4, 2005


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## Medvedya (Jan 20, 2005)

Oh no, I didn't mean it was bad at all! As you say, it's those twists of fate that make history interesting.

That list is heavy.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 20, 2005)

You are absolutely correct. I love History. I want to finish my history degree and become a history teacher. I want to make history fun for my students, so that they want to learn it.


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## Medvedya (Jan 20, 2005)

I think the important thing is to bring it to life. That's why artifacts are so important. Granted, books are the 'bread and butter' of historical work, but to really get the next lot of future historians keen they need to be able to pick things up, or try them on, or see them work.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 20, 2005)

Exactly and that is what I wish to do. I have so many artifacts and things, granted most of them are military artifacts from yesteryear but armys have been a big part of shaping history. I have so many things to tell for instance how it felt to walk in the ruins of ancient Babylon and so many pictures to show from all the places I have seen and visited. I want my students to feel like they can be a part of history, feel it, see it, smell it, taste it everything.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 20, 2005)

wow i'd love to have you as a history teacher..........


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## evangilder (Jan 20, 2005)

You have the right idea Adler! I wish I had had that kind of history teacher. It would have been something to keep me awake, and interested.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 21, 2005)

It is all in the way you present it. You have to keep the kids awake, you have to make them laugh, and want to learn. Step one is to make the students like you, if they like you they will open up and want to learn.


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## evangilder (Jan 21, 2005)

Yep, if you keep it interesting, they will definitely learn more. I am reminded of the movie "Teachers" where that have the escaped asylum guy teaching history and makes it interacctive, where they are acting out crossing the Delaware river. I found with presentations, throwing in something funny and making them laugh at least once is memorable. I also use alot of visual aids. If they associate a picture with a fact, it seems to stick better.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 21, 2005)

Exactly they have to be able to see it, and in the case of students having them act it out is always great it is a fun way and if you let them get creative in there acting there is always laughter which makes it fun and they want to learn more.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 21, 2005)

Oh but it was so funny in history yesterday, our teacher was drawing Czechoslovakia and it looked exactly like an erection, and we couldn't stop laughing............


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 21, 2005)

We did stop laughing though...

Nah it was bloody funny though


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 21, 2005)

Then when she drew Germany and Austria around it


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## Medvedya (Jan 21, 2005)

So mature....


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 21, 2005)

Too damn right


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## Medvedya (Jan 21, 2005)

Uhh, huh, huh.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 22, 2005)

Ah thats a gooden


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## lesofprimus (Jan 22, 2005)

"You STOOPID Idyot!"


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 22, 2005)

keep it coming guys, I need cheering up...


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## lesofprimus (Jan 22, 2005)

Try these....


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 22, 2005)

I must be the girl...Shes communist too....


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## lesofprimus (Jan 22, 2005)

THAT AINT NO GIRL!!! 

THATS WONDERWOMAN!!!!!!!


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 22, 2005)

She's an amazon. Like my wife!


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## Medvedya (Jan 22, 2005)

Keep it coming eh? Try this - whole minutes of fun!

http://www.geekasaurus.com/cornholio.html


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 22, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> She's an amazon. Like my wife!



Your wife is an online store!?  And I though *I* spent too much time online!


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 22, 2005)

Cute.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 22, 2005)




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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2005)

Wonderwoman Rocks!


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 16, 2005)

Is that some kind of dog food?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 17, 2005)

LOL No its like a Chia Pet!


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 17, 2005)

Oh.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 17, 2005)

So lets get this one back on topic any suggestions?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 17, 2005)

well this isn't so much an opinion thing is it........


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## Erich (Feb 17, 2005)

watch it or I'll kick your butts.............Joe Peterburs from the 20th fg


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 17, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> well this isn't so much an opinion thing is it........



It can be...

By American killer, do we mean someone who takes out Yanks or a Yank who takes other people out?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 17, 2005)

I think it is the guy who shot down the most Americans. Now at the same time we can break it down to who shot down the most bombers or fighters.

You also have to take into account the Japanese fighter pilots. I however know nothing about the way Japanese confirmed or accounted for kills.

Either way here are the top 5 Luftwaffe American killers by type of fighters. First is the number of the type of fighter and in parenthasis is the total number of aircraft killed of all types.

P-47
Oblt. Wilhelm Hofmann 13(44) 
Maj. Theodor Weissenberger 13(208) 
Obstlt. Egon Mayer 12(102)
Maj. Julius "Jule" Meimberg 12(53)
Obstlt. Heinz-Edgar "Pritzel" Bär 10(221)

P-51
Maj. Wilhelm Steinmann 12(44)
Ofw. Heinrich Bartels 11(99) 
Obstlt. Heinz Bär 10(221) 
Hptm. Franz Schall 10(133)
Oblt. Wilhelm Hofmann 10(44)

P-38
Ofw. Heinrich Bartels 14(99) 
Obstlt. Kurt "Bu-mann" Bühligen 13+(112) 
Hptm. Herbert Puschmann 9(57) 
Oblt. Wilhelm "Willy" Kientsch 9(53) 
Oblt. Herbert Rollwage 8+(85)

And here are the top 5 aces with the number of kills of USAAF aircraft:

Maj. Georg-Peter Eder 56
Obstlt. Kurt Bühligen 51
Obstlt. Heinz "Pritzel" Bär 49+
Maj. Anton "Toni" Hackl 47
Obst Walther Dahl 41+

From what I have been able to research Eder was the top US killer of the WW2. Of his 56 kills against US aircraft he shot down 36 Bombers, 10 P-47, 7 P-51, and 3 P-38.


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## Udet (Feb 17, 2005)

Der Adler:


Right. Taking Georg Peter Eder´s bomber kills into account only, makes hims resposible for 360 USAAF men which did not return to their bases for dinner.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 17, 2005)

May they forever rest in peace.


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## evangilder (Feb 17, 2005)

I would hope that some of them survived to become POWs.


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 18, 2005)

Some interesting stats up there DerAdler...

Interesting that less P-38's were shot down by Eder than the P-47's and P-51's


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## mosquitoman (Feb 18, 2005)

They were not used in the ETO as much as the P-47 and P-51, that's probably why


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 18, 2005)

Yeah definatley


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 6, 2005)

That is most likely the reason and possibly because of the great maneauverability of the P-38.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 6, 2005)

oh god not annother one.........


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## Nonskimmer (Mar 6, 2005)




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## cheddar cheese (Mar 6, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> oh god not annother one.........



Another what? You cant deny the fact that the P-38 was very manouverable.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 7, 2005)

In Lancs world you can. In his world a Lancaster would fly circles around a P-38


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## Erich (Mar 7, 2005)

side note to one of the above aces. Walter Dahl's score is a bit pumped up probably at leat 11-15 of the kills are not confirmed.....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 7, 2005)

> In his world a Lancaster would fly circles around a P-38



damn right it would.......


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## mosquitoman (Mar 7, 2005)

Somebody find the men in white coats and quick


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 7, 2005)

which ones, i know most of them personally.........


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## mosquitoman (Mar 7, 2005)

Anyway, back on topic. The No1 American killer in the ETO I would say would be a German fighter pilot, I'm not up on German pilots so I wouldn't know


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## Chocks away! (Mar 7, 2005)

Was Bartels killed?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 8, 2005)

Erich said:


> side note to one of the above aces. Walter Dahl's score is a bit pumped up probably at leat 11-15 of the kills are not confirmed.....



Yeah I actually figured that to be the case of several of the pilots kills count.

And no Bartells did not not survive, he was shot down:



> At this time he was serving with 15./JG 27 formed on 12 June 1944. On 23 December, he took off at 11:00 with his flight. His wingman was Oberfähnrich Rolf Brand. Gaining altitude they flew to the Köln – Bonn area. Over Bonn, at 7500 metres, they saw fuel tanks dropping in front of their noses. Those drop tanks came from P-47 fighters of the USAAF 56th Fighter Group "Red Noses" in pursuit of the aircraft flown by Heinz Rossinger (3 v.). Bartels promptly shot down one of the American fighters on Rossinger's tail. It was his 99th and last victory. Heinrich Bartels failed to return. 24 years later, on 26 January 1968, Bartels’ Bf 109 G-10 (W.Nr. 130 359) “Yellow 13” was found at Villip near Bad Godesberg. In the cockpit was the intact parachute...
> Heinrich Bartels flew about 500 combat missions and shot down 99 enemy aircraft: 49 on the Eastern front with JG 5 and 50 with JG 27 in the Mediterranean and in defence of Germany. His score included nine P-47s eleven P-51s and fourteen P-38s!
> http://www.luftwaffe.cz/bartels.html


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## Udet (Jun 3, 2005)

Ok, here it goes:

On what could the most lethal single shot in the the entire ETO, the event happened on November 26, 1943 off Bougie (Algeria) in the Mediterranean.

The particular shot involved the firing of only one (1) weapon. A guided missile.

Nine Heinkels He-177 bombers equipped with Hs293 guided bombs made an attack on a British convoy en route from England.

Several hits were scored, but the most frightening one was the missile who hit the British troop ship _"Rohna"_, a 6,000 ton vessel.

Crammed with allied soldiers, the He-177 crew scored a "bull´s eye".
The missile struck her amidships, right over the heads of the jammed British and US soldiers.

1,597 men got instantly killed by the massive explosion. About 1,200 of such soldiers were U.S. Army.

The vessel went down some moments later. Psychiatric cases rose in many men who witnessed the event from nearby ships in the convoy.

The He-177s returned to base unscathed.

The allies -yes, them- concealed the disaster for several decades.

Whoever those men on the He-177 were, they perhaps killed the greatest number of U.S. soldiers in the shortest period of time (merely seconds) using only one sole weapon.

The sole problem I have detected is to which unit did the He177s who carried out that succesful attack were. I am sure it was II./ KG 40


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 3, 2005)

Here's a good site on the Rohna sinking:

http://www.sid-hill.com/honors/hon-11.htm


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## Udet (Jun 3, 2005)

That site has many things wrong.

The Rohna was not 8,602 tons but 6000.

No He 177s were lost during the attack.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 3, 2005)

Yep - just saw that, well at least there's something out there


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 3, 2005)

Where did you get your info from, Udet? I'm honestly curious, as I don't know much about this incident. Could you possibly provide a link?


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## Erich (Jun 3, 2005)

it really doesn't matter I suppose but there were 1988 US servicemen aboard with 1,135 KIA total. 1015 US and 102 crewmembers. the web-site that Flyboy lists is very good. I have quite a bit on the Hs 293 missle and Fritz X. The He 177's may have been the A-5 version.
In essence the Allied recon was terrible for the date. No warning of the He 177's enroute or during tht attack This was KMF -26 with 24 ships, the Rohna being in a section of 5 ships coming into port. 6 escort ships werer British and 4 more were US.

the German attack lasted an hour with glide bombs being used as well as torpedo bombers.....

in brief the Allied escorts were attacked all during the entire route to port, with at least 1 torpedo attack at the convoy. after 1700hrs 4 bombers approached at 3,000 feet with 2 veering off to attack other ships and 2 towards the Rohna. One of the He's veered off an attacked another ship while another released a glid bomb towards the Rohna, the Rohna about 15 miles from Jijelli, North Africa. The bomb hit the engine compartment and the troop quarters. the Rohan sank from this 1 bomb approx. 1 hour and 30 minutes after being struck.......

One escort, the Pioneer crewmen estimated that no less tha 40-50 glide bombs were fired off which is bit much...I am reading a after action AA report stating some 24-30 Luftwaffe He 111's and He 177's took part attacking from the aport and starboard areas....

E


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 3, 2005)

Ah, interesting. Thanks for the info Erich.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 3, 2005)

Interesting...


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## Erich (Jun 3, 2005)

A couple of sources state there was a heavy Allied escort and claims of 6 He 177's were shot down including II./KG 40 Kommandeur Major Mons anc Captain Nuss. heavy weather set in as the returning He 177's landed and another two 177's were put out of commission.

For the 21 and 26 November 1943 II./KG 40 lost 12 a/c and 8 crews.

Captain Dochtermann became Gruppenkommandeur, and becuase of the heavy losses the II. gruppe turned over to night time attacks. 3 bombers dropped special 110lb flares on the convoy's beam. Another kette of 3 would then attack the convoy from the dark side as the convoy would be silhoutted against the flares descent.........less AA fire to contend with. the bombers armed with the Hs 293 would then release their bombs some 6-9 miles out; a pretty fair distance I would say....


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## Udet (Jun 3, 2005)

Non skimmer:

(i) Actually it was the U-boat weapon that first attracted me into WW2.

It was about ten years ago when I was still living in London that a naval officer -a friend of my dad- came to our place and gave my father a huge file of printed documents with statistics of all allied convoys that sailed everywhere during WWII and the recorded losses.

It was there when after a good while I came across the convoy attacked off Bougie on November 26, 1943.

It had a footnote for November (26) saying more or less something like "KG 40 He 177 guided bomb attack. 6000 ton troopship _Rohna_ sunk: frigthful loss of life. 2 other vessels hit".

It was also specified the convoy lacked air coverage and that the raiders got away unscathed. 

Later on I would get my hands on all the Kampfgruppen order of Battle during the entire war. Losses for KG 40. By seeing the planes the four gruppen of KG 40 had by the time and the area where they were based is that Heinkels of II gruppe carried out the action.

Number of He 177s that attacked the convoy: nine.

I have no information on German bombers of any kind other than He177s participating in the attack or attacking with torpedos though. 

Sorry Erich, but since the issue was a concealed one, for a real long period of time, and with the info I have I can tell you that is not correct. The convoy did not have any air escort at all.

The losses you are referring here might well have occured, but certainly not in the attack carried out on that convoy on Nov 26.

Bombers fitted with guided bombs, attacking a convoy lacking air support, are in the most ideal and comfortable of the situations: to launch their weapons very WELL beyond the range of the AA guns in the convoy vessels.


(2) Another source is a book from an author named Clay Blair "Hitler´s U-boat War", a two volume cumbersome work, that also addresses this particular engagement clearly stating the 6000 ton data but failing to mention the unit to which the Heinkels belong.

And no, I do not think that website is to be relied upon for some of the data is incorrect.

I am done with this thread )

The issue was to point out the event of a very deadly German shot that killed more than 1000 U.S. Army troops in a mere few seconds. The topic guys.


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 3, 2005)

Well thanks for the reply anyway.


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## Erich (Jun 3, 2005)

suggest that if interested delve into picking up the RL number covering the II./KG 40 attack from Freiburg Archiv's. Sorry but it is clear the Kommandeur Mons was KIA this date flying a He 177, so don't state there were no He 177's lost. It may not have been 8 but sources state otherwise not all Engish/American.


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## Erich (Jun 3, 2005)

side note:

according to Flugzeugbestand und Bewgungsmeldung a total of 21 He 177A-3's were lost in November 43. 8 confirmed due to enemy action and another 4 as possible. 26 He 177's were left to start the month of December 1943 actions....


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## lesofprimus (Jun 3, 2005)

> The topic guys.


Dude what are u talking about??? Ur the one who took us off topic in the first place.. And speaking of topic, this is a dead one anyways..... Go back and read the first 2 pages of this thread and ull see the answer.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 9, 2005)

This is sort of on topic anyhow? It is about 1000 or more Americans being killed. Okay maybe it is not about the pilot who single handedly shot down the most US pilots but it is still related.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 9, 2005)

tediously, very tediously..........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 10, 2005)

Whats tediously?


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## lesofprimus (Jun 10, 2005)

The length that we have been discussing the Rohna. Theres a seperate thread now concerning this horrible sinking......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 11, 2005)

Yeah I saw that.


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## Monkeysee1 (Aug 27, 2005)

Dude... we all know the greatest American Killer in the ETO was the P47... 

Hello?


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## lesofprimus (Aug 27, 2005)

Actually it was probably cigarettes.......


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 27, 2005)

or just good ol' fashion american ignorance...........


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## lesofprimus (Aug 27, 2005)

Might even have been that damn British Tea tho....

All those records seem to have been destroyed in 1945, so unfortunatly, we'll never know the whole truth...


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## plan_D (Aug 27, 2005)

It was English women and their STDs actually...


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## lesofprimus (Aug 27, 2005)

Actually, I heard it was the French whores, I mean women, and their canker sores........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 30, 2005)

I think it was a mix of field rationed coffee and woman.....


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## drgondog (Sep 27, 2007)

Looking in wrong direction? I haven't read the complete thread so someone may have said this already for "top American Killer".

In ETO it was probably an unnamed U Boat commander and in the pacific the Jap that sank the Indianapolis is probably up there and the commandant POW camp in Phillipines or Tokyo ranks up there as well. 

The fighter pilot is way down the list I would suspect

The top B-17/B-24 shooters are probably the best ones to look at for LW, depending on matching the KIA to the pilot. Egon Mayer for example


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## ccheese (Sep 27, 2007)

Did you forget about bullets, bombs and mortar rounds ?......

Charles


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## drgondog (Sep 27, 2007)

ccheese said:


> Did you forget about bullets, bombs and mortar rounds ?......
> 
> Charles



Actually no, and at the end of the day my example was one man with a team behind him - as a U-Boat Commander.. whereas an Egon Mayer was in a single engine airplane (or Eder, etc) and flying all by his lonesome...


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