# HSK Kormaran Found of Western Australian Coast



## Emac44 (Mar 15, 2008)

In todays News in Australia the HSK Kormoran has been found of the Western Australian Coast. In November 1941 Kormoran and HMAS Sydney were locked in battle with the loss of both vessels. 317 Kormorans survivors from the battle were the only eyewitnesses available to the battle as all of HMAS Sydney's crew of 645 were lost when the Sydney sunk.

A non profit organisation has been searching for HMAS Sydney and the finding of the Kormoran is one step closer in locating HMAS Sydney after 67 year mystery has deepened as to what occured to HMAS Sydney. Below is a link to Finding the Sydney 

HMAS Sydney II Appeal


----------



## magnocain (Mar 15, 2008)

Neat.


----------



## Erich (Mar 15, 2008)

incredible, I just wonder how far away the Sydney really is. what a tragedy actually for both boats. it does seem incredible the Kormoran was able to lure the Sydney in close enough to give her the full brunt of the Hilfkreuzers main armament.............actually more of a skillful deployment by a crafty Kriegsmarine Kommandeur.

E ~


----------



## Emac44 (Mar 15, 2008)

Here is news information from Australian Broadcasting Commission (ABC) website on the finding of the Kormoran. That maybe well and true Erich but it also speaks highly of a Royal Australian Navy Crew diliegent in their duties in defending Australia. Those men gave their lives in defending Australia. And both vessels served their country's with distinction. Speculation is that Sydney maybe close within a radius of 300 nautical miles from the Kormoran Wreck Site. But rest assured Erich the Kormoran will be treated as a Historical War Grave as will be the Sydney if and when she is found.

Kormoran wreck found off WA - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


----------



## Wildcat (Mar 15, 2008)

Great news. Here's hoping they find the Sydney!


----------



## Graeme (Mar 15, 2008)

Thanks for the post Emac! Will certainly watch the news tonight. Finding the Sydney will be an historic and emotional find.


----------



## Emac44 (Mar 16, 2008)

Yes Graeme and Wild finding the Sydney will be a historic event for many in Australia. It will mean closure to, to many unanswered questions and that finally families of the Crewmen of Sydney will have answers to where and what occured to HMAS Sydney. But the emotional issue would be that after so long a time the Crew of the Sydney will have a known Grave Site and final known resting site. We will be abled to bring 645 Australian Sailors home at long last in a spiritual sense of course. We need to find HMAS Sydney as a nation
Youtube video tribute to HMAS Sydney

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgtMaZVDcL4_

Kormoran was found approximately 150 Kilometres west of Sharks Bay Western Australia. The Australian Federal Government contacted the Germany Embassy in Canberra to inform the German Government that Kormoran had been found. The Australian Government will treat the Kormoran as a War Graves Site and protect the Kormoran as such. But the final word will come from the German Government as to the fate of Kormoran as she is still the property of the German Government. Whether Kormoran will be salvaged or left as a War Grave is now up to the German Government and to laise with the Australian Government in the process to what will be decided. However HMAS Sydney still as yet has to be found.
A search is to be conducted within a 300 nautical radius of Kormoran to find HMAS Sydney


----------



## evangilder (Mar 16, 2008)

Here's to hoping that when they find the Sydney, that it will unlock the mystery of what happened. Losing 645 in one place like that is a horrible loss.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 16, 2008)

Wow I really hope they find the Syndey as well.

 to the sailors of both ships.


----------



## Lucky13 (Mar 16, 2008)




----------



## Emac44 (Mar 16, 2008)

HMAS SYDNEY HAS BEEN FOUND. SHE IS LYING AT SOME 2000 METRES APPROXIMATELY 12 NAUTICAL MILES FROM KORMORAN AND 8 NAUTICAL MILES FROM THE BATTLE SITE. 645 AUSTRALIAN SAILORS AND HMAS SYDNEY HAVE BEEN FOUND AFTER 65 YEARS.

IT IS AN HISTORIC DAY FOR AUSTRALIA AND A SAD ONE FOR THE FAMILIES AND RELATIVES OF THE MEN OF HMAS SYDNEY. BUT SHE HAS BEEN FOUND AND IT IS CONFIRMED IT IS THE SYDNEY. BOTH HMAS SYDNEY AND KORMORAN WILL BE PROTECTED UNDER HISTORIC SHIP WRECK ACT AND BOTH SHIPS ARE OFFICIALLY WAR GRAVES

Rudd confirms HMAS Sydney find - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


----------



## Erich (Mar 16, 2008)

I'll await for a rather large publication on this and the two ships during their war-time service right up to that ill-fated 1941 day

what a weekend !!

Salute to the Fallen


----------



## Emac44 (Mar 16, 2008)

Erich for Australians. It means we can now bring about closure and we can bring our men home closer to the Nation. They are no longer missing. They have been found at long last. These 645 Aussies missing for so long are back within the hearts and minds of their fellow Australians and we now know where they are


----------



## Erich (Mar 16, 2008)

I would think it would bring closure for both sides.........

more on an ever changing (daily change) link

HMAS Sydney (II) Discovered - Latest Search Reports


----------



## Wildcat (Mar 16, 2008)

This is awesome!! I can't believe they finally found her. What a great day!!


----------



## Emac44 (Mar 16, 2008)

Yes Wild a bloody great day


----------



## Erich (Mar 16, 2008)

this is some of the conspiracy that has been led to believe for so many years of the fateful battle for both ships on the SAME day

POST Newspapers Online: Headline News

well studying the KM for the past 30 years mid way down this bogus article it mentions a small J boot with two torpedo tubes..............

the boot was actually the LS-2 equipped with three mine chutes from the rear, the torpedo carrying small Schnellboot did not become operational so this story is just plain bunk. proof that the Kormoran herself had two separate racks for firing torpedoes. silly too that the fight occurred at night which is also untrue.

as for the previous article I put up about the cracked hull, that seems clear enough in reading that the Sydney lost this and as result sunk.

myth will become ever more prevalent in the days ahead, but truth enough this has to be a super day for Australia


----------



## Emac44 (Mar 16, 2008)

Putting a google map onto website to show approximately what area of the Western Australian Coast we are referring to Erich. Now you can see the territory the Sydney and Kormoran had been in 1941 before both ships disappeared


----------



## Kiwikid (Mar 16, 2008)

Hard to imagine that the HMAS Sydney is intact. Surely to be lost with all hands suggests a hit on her magazines ?

EMAC44 the battle occured some 400 miles from shore so wouldn't he spot be to the very left of your map ?


----------



## Emac44 (Mar 16, 2008)

But as for speculation Erich. That is all and good. In time when the dust has settled. Exploration of both Syndey and Kormoran will be conducted along with research as to determine damage and possible cause to the sinking of both vessels. But of course it will be conducted within mind that any exploration done will be conducted properly as both ships are War Graves. And the site exploration will be done with utmost dignity baring in mind the area of Sydney and Kormoran are War Graves and treated with respect.

Speculation may well continue Erich but for now Australians are pleased that Sydney has been found


----------



## Graeme (Mar 17, 2008)

Emac44 said:


> Speculation may well continue Erich but for now Australians are pleased that Sydney has been found



Absolutely! Wasn't in the most auspicious place (Red Rooster!) to learn the news, but it was very moving to see the relatives on the TV news bulletin react to the discovery.


----------



## Emac44 (Mar 17, 2008)

Kiwikid said:


> Hard to imagine that the HMAS Sydney is intact. Surely to be lost with all hands suggests a hit on her magazines ?
> 
> EMAC44 the battle occured some 400 miles from shore so wouldn't he spot be to the very left of your map ?



Possibley Kiwi but what I was showing the map I posted was to let people know who are unfamiliar with the Australian Coastline how extensive the area is. Not directly pinpointing the search area of the Western Australian Coast. But giving forum users an idea approximately


----------



## ccheese (Mar 17, 2008)

I was not aware of this epic battle. Wiki has quite a write up on it. I am
glad that both vessels have been found, and there will be some closure to
the families. It appears the Aussies are really elated..... 

Charles


----------



## Watanbe (Mar 18, 2008)

Emac44 said:


> Possibley Kiwi but what I was showing the map I posted was to let people know who are unfamiliar with the Australian Coastline how extensive the area is. Not directly pinpointing the search area of the Western Australian Coast. But giving forum users an idea approximately



I believe that the first German rounds destroyed the bridge and put the officers out of action the rounds from the Kormaron also separated the bow of the ship and it flipped and sunk rapidly. The crew didnt really a chance to abandon the ship!


----------



## timshatz (Mar 18, 2008)

Watanbe said:


> The crew didnt really a chance to abandon the ship!



Even if they did, what were the chances they were going to be picked up? Probably not very good. I gotta believe some guys made it into the water, they just didn't survive. 

Look at the USS Juneau. She went down with 600 some guys on board and about 150 or so made it into the water. A week or two later 14 or so were picked up (by pure accident).


----------



## Erich (Mar 18, 2008)

the story continues.....several rafts were found from the Sydney. I can only guess as well all as the Sydneys two remaining active gun turrets did the Kormoran in that when she sailed off burning the internal explosions and finally the ship cracking and dissolving killed the remaining Allied crewmen. Well even with all the high tech of our age I still do not think over 60 plus years they will put all the pieces together of the action

but in any case in a long weekends time to finally find the two ships is just incredible


----------



## Emac44 (Mar 18, 2008)

I don't know Erich. Even though I have no personal tie up in HMAS Sydney. And being an Australian. I still bare a grudge that no Australians survived the sinking of the Sydney. So many men lost in one action by being lured to their deaths by deceit or Burnett making an assumptions of safety even during a War Time Patrol. I see the old photos and films of the Crew of Sydney and realise each and every one of those men on film and photos are dead. They never were abled to return to their families. Unlike the majority of the Crew from Kormoran. I suppose its just a natural reaction to a tragic event Erich. And I am being some what bitter about the loss of life to so many of my own country men


----------



## Erich (Mar 18, 2008)

very understandable, I can think of other ships of both sides........the Hood, Tirpitz and others that were pounded and the loss of life was unbearable and still is with no closure for Familie and friends.

In this case it is almost impossible to understand what was going through Burnetts mind........why did he get so close, had he been that deceived by Detmers camo on the ship as a Dutch freighter ? things like this are so puzzling and we will never know the answers


----------



## Emac44 (Mar 18, 2008)

Erich I am grateful that you understand. Its just something I can't help feeling. I don't bare grudges against the nation of Germany or its people or its military during WW2 and there after. What I do bare resentment to was and is the National Socialists of Germany from World War 2. These murdering butchers to liberty and justice


----------



## Erich (Mar 18, 2008)

well you're not alone, I lost too many relatives fighting for Germany, and for what ....... ?


----------



## Udet (Mar 20, 2008)

All these enigmas surrounding the loss of the HMAS Sydney seem confusing. 

I do not know much about this battle except for some basics: a light cruiser and an armed merchant in disguise crossing paths in some distant location off the West Australian coast, a fast exchange of fire and torpedoes, both vessels go down, the bulk of the German crew survives, none of the Australian crew were ever seen again.

What about the opinions and statements of the Kormoran´s commander and the rest of the crew? For the remainder of the war they were POWs -in Australia all the time?-, so it is reasonable to assume Australian authorities had plenty of time to interrogate the German prisoners.

I can deal with the fact there are certain enigmas that might never be solved with regard to this particular battle since all they have is the version of only one of the sides involved but...what is it that the Germans revealed? Is there any information available here?

Do not take this as an inflamatory statement but could this be another case of the allies concealing information? I am sure it is difficult to accept the fact a vessel that was built as light cruiser, with the armor scheme and armament for a vessel of the class, went down in battle against another vessel that was not designed as warship.

How did Australian naval authorities process the information revealed during 
the interrogations of the Kormoran´s crew? 

Given the circumstances i believe the Germans who were part of this battle should be considered the main source for information that might let the world know what happened or to at least come as close as possible to the actual facts surrounding the battle. Examining the recently found wrecks could also be of help for sure, but i hope the Australians have not dismissed their statemts off hand. There is nothing the ~650 Australian officers and sailors who perished can add to the investigations.

I sympathize with the Australian and German families and relatives who finally get to know where their parents, husbands and friends rest.


----------



## timshatz (Mar 20, 2008)

I think the Germans didn't know anymore than they told. They last saw the Sydney sailing away, fires on the maindeck and down by the bow. They were probably more worried about saving themselves than what happened to the Sydney after she sailed out of reasonable sight. They were sinking, not moving and just wanted to survive.

Doubt there is any coverup in this one, just an unknown about the ship. There were several ships that happened to during the war that were unknown until after the war. USS Jarvis, USS Pope, USS Pilsbury. All disapeared without a trace, only the Pope having any survivors that came home. 

And the German Navy had any number of Subs that went out and just disappeared without a trace. Almost common.

What is unusual about the Sydney is the size of the ship and the number of the souls onboard. But the fact that she disappeared after a shootout with a raider is not all that strange.


----------



## Erich (Mar 20, 2008)

there is NO coverup in the slightest, the govts are trying their best to protect the living vets-German as well as the Families from both sides serving on the Sydney/Kormoran.

enjoy more from the 18th of the month : 18th March 2008 Report - Latest Search Reports

reality is the co-ordinates that Detmers had placed in his after action report captured by the Aussies actually was the position and close to where the HK went down plus though only from the HK's surviving crew - seeing the Sydney on the horizon and then lost ........... the ships crew that discovered the Hk and then used those map placings to determine an approx where the Sydney was lying..........wha la, presto, found


----------



## Udet (Mar 20, 2008)

Erich:

So they had Detmers report of the battle indicating the coordinates all the time?


----------



## Vassili Zaitzev (Mar 20, 2008)

Sorry I'm late, but I'm glad they found the Sydney. I read an article in a WW2 magazine about the battle, and wondered what happened to the ship.

 To those lost in the battle.


----------



## Erich (Mar 20, 2008)

Udet................YES, they interviewed every one of the HK's survivors and truthfully due to the point of action there is of course different opinions on how the battle proceeded...........of course many of the HK's crew were below deck and did not get up on top till the abandon ship was ordered while the HK Kormoran was on fire with the Mines on-board about ready to blow which she did after the crew got off and away.

Detmers wrote his memories down in his book "Raider Kormoran" in which I am trying to find a decent copy. Obviously it is his own version of the events of the ship and the final battle with the Sydney but it is what humanity has at it's disposal. There is a truckload of information in the Australian archiv's


----------



## The Basket (Mar 20, 2008)

Read a brilliant book on the German Raiders...ah the Atlantis and the Pinguin...one of the captains was tried for war crimes...Ruckteschell of the Widder...nasty piece of work.

Well some people believe the Germans killed the Sydneys crew in the lifeboats but there was never proof of this. Just rumour. The fact that no crew of the Sydney survived is rare but not unique.

The German crew were POWs in Australia until 47 and were well treated.

The Sydney got so close to the Kormoran that the crew of the raider.could use machine guns and anti aircraft weapons to kill the topdeck crew. It was a massive mistake to be so close to an unknown vessel and the Germans simply couldn't miss.


----------



## Wildcat (Apr 3, 2008)

Gents, see here forthe first pics of the Sydney!
3rd April 2008 Report - HMAS Sydney II First Photographs - Latest Search Reports


----------



## smg (Apr 3, 2008)

thats preaty kool


----------



## Denniss (Apr 13, 2008)

April 2008 - Posts - Latest Search Reports

They released several new ROV images including the first shots of Kormoran.


----------



## Emac44 (Apr 15, 2008)

And just a note. With the finding of HMAS Sydney just last month and a Month before ANZAC Day. Aussies have another reason to remember our fallen on ANZAC Day. HMAS Sydney as been found. A time to remember the Crew of the Sydney who have been absent and missing for far too many years. And to these brave Sailors who have never left our thoughts and memories. Welcome Home at long last. We have held a place for you, as you left us as a Nation in a void for far too long that needed to be filled. For the families of these Sailors THERE is closure at long last. 

LEST WE FORGET 
WELCOME HOME HMAS SYDNEY


----------

