# Contra the hatred, German war cemetry Ysselstein, Captain Timmermans



## Marcel (Aug 28, 2015)

Because of the discussion here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/wwii-videos/retribution-germans-war-graphic-everone-43797.html, I thought a counter message was necessary. I think we from the generations after the war can learn from the creation of the German cemetry Yselstein and especially from the one who maintained it for many years. 

Ysselstein is a huge cemetry. more than 31,000 german soldiers are burried there. To compare, the biggest warcemetry for Americans here in The Netherlands is Margraten, where 8,300 US soldiers rest. I found this story about Captain Timmermans on 'Traces of war' and I found it very inspiring. I think we all could learn a lesson here.



> Close to the central memorial place there is a memorial stone for Captain Timmermans.
> Captain Timmermans had fought against the German occupants during World War II. After the German occupation in 1940 he entered a Dutch resistance group. In 1945 he was part of a mine search service. He stepped, however, on a wood mine. As parts of the mine exploded in his face he was temporarily blind. Thus, he was taken to a Canadian military hospital in which also other Dutchmen, Belgians, Canadians, Americans and even Germans were treated and cared for. Next to him, a slightly wounded young German soldier from Lake Constance was treated. When this young soldier recovered he stayed in order to care for Captain Timmermans. A dialogue between both of them unavoidably took place. Step by step both of them realized that the prejudices they had against each other were flawed. Captain Timmermans realized that often - especially young German soldiers - were forced to go to war rather than volunteering for military service. Despite some investigations it was impossible to trace back the whereabouts of the young German soldier after the war had ended.
> 
> In 1948 - three years after the war - Captain Timmermans got the opportunity to temporarily take on an administrative position in Ysselsteyn. In the end, he has remained in Ysselsteyn for 28 years... As administrator of the cemetery he placed war graves, cared for them, identified killed soldiers, guided visiting groups and informed relatives. He was also one of the founding members of the youth work. In cooperation with a Bavarian priest and the priest of Ysselsteyn he organized the first youth meetings close to the cemetery - at that time in the form of camps.
> ...

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## mikewint (Aug 28, 2015)

Marcel as I posted some time ago in that thread:
Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. "BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 28, 2015)

Thanks for sharing Marcel. Your wisdom and compassion makes you a great friend and human being.

Both of my Grandfathers served in WW2. One was in the Wehrmacht (served in the French Campaign and then the East Front). The other was a US soldier and landed in Normandy on D-Day. Interestingly they both became friends post war after my parents met. My mother has shown me pics of them enjoying a beer and laughing and sharing stories. I only wish they had not died when I was so young.

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## Marcel (Aug 29, 2015)

Thanks Chris, likewise, although I resent the "wisedom" part 

Ysselsteyn by the way is a special place. You know that they didn't put the units on the crosses so as not to provoke anything? They were afraid that some resentment against certain units would trigger vandalism. On this cemetry, all military, SS or Wehrmacht are treated the same. And it is quite a sobering sight:

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## tomo pauk (Sep 7, 2015)

Thanks for this, Marcel. Hopefully one day the similar story will be created on these territories :\

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## Marcel (Sep 8, 2015)

tomo pauk said:


> Thanks for this, Marcel. Hopefully one day the similar story will be created on these territories :\



Every country has it's own captains Timmerman. He was a unique guy, but there are many that are as unique as he was. It's most probably that stories like this happend at your place as wel,, but never became widely known. The problem is that angry people shout loudest, thus get the most attention. But if we ever want peace, we'll need examples like this

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## Marcel (Jan 29, 2017)

Just bumping this as I think this is still a very important lesson. Democracies should be based on tolerance, respect and freedom. It is what should set us apart from the ones out to destroy us. It should never be based on anger, fear and disrespect. Please remember that when you are having discussions here or want to slash out again on Facebook.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 29, 2017)

Marcel said:


> Just bumping this as I think this is still a very important lesson. Democracies should be based on tolerance, respect and freedom. It is what should set us apart from the ones out to destroy us. It should never be based on anger, fear and disrespect. Please remember that when you are having discussions here or want to slash out again on Facebook.



Again great wisdom my friend.

Unfortunately some have fallen in the traps of the extremes...

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## michaelmaltby (Jan 29, 2017)

"... Democracies should be based on tolerance, respect and freedom. It is what should set us apart from the ones out to destroy us. "

Western Europe was liberated from _evil_ by basically decent, moral, everyday civilian males who were _moral_ ... who came from societies that were _moral_ ... they fought and died because they were outraged ... angry .... and they committed force and vast resources to stopping evil. Evil bequeaths evil but _not _stopping it is also evil.

.... those who find this truth politically inconvenient, who deny the human right to be angry, to be outraged, they are the ones who are out to destroy us because they would take the weapon, the necessary weapon of anger off the table.

IMO

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## Marcel (Jan 29, 2017)

That's your opinion Michael.
Let me tell you something else:
When we were finally liberated in 1945, the Dutch people dragged people on the street, these were girls who had a German boyfriend or people that had helped the Germans in some way. Their heads were shaved and and all kinds of humiliating and cruel things were done to them, all out of anger about the last 5 years.
However, my grandfather, a member of the resistance for a all of the 5 years, and his comrades never participated in those festivities and they were really digusted about it all. Their anger was clearly not so great after all. The people who did these kind of things were mostly people who had sat out the occupation without doing anything.

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## buffnut453 (Jan 29, 2017)

If this is too political, please feel free to delete it...but the world is replete with negative examples of the politics of "them". By this I mean the desire to blame some faceless group for all our ills. Hitler did this to horrific effect with the Jews, the Slavs, the disabled and countless others. The entire Balkans war of the early 1990s and countless wars in Africa have clear roots in highlighting the differences between different people (Rwanda anyone?). This issue extends to other, less violent but no less problematic, national policies (eg British anti-Catholic policies and the segregationist policies in America). 

Capt Timmermans story is an amazing example of what happens when we put a personal face and a name to "them". Maybe I'm naiive but I genuinely believe that most people simply want to live a good life, provide for their kids and raise their family to become functioning, contributing members of society. There are exceptions and the media will always highlight the few who go to extremes because extremes sell newspapers (or, in this day and age, clicks). However, the few do not represent the majority. The more we follow Capt Timmermans' example and put a name and a face to "them", the more we'll realize how alike we are. To quote Sgt Buster Kilrain from the movie Gettysburg "The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time."

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## Crimea_River (Jan 29, 2017)

Most eloquently put Buff.

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## michaelmaltby (Jan 29, 2017)

.. well said ... and nothing begets evil like poverty, jealousy and ignorance.

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## mikewint (Jan 29, 2017)

From the foldings of its robe, it brought two children; wretched, abject, frightful, hideous, miserable. They knelt down at its feet, and clung upon the outside of its garment.
`Oh, Man. look here. Look, look, down here.' exclaimed the Ghost.

They were a boy and a girl. Yellow, meagre, ragged, scowling, wolfish; but prostrate, too, in their humility. Where graceful youth should have filled their features out, and touched them with its freshest tints, a stale and shrivelled hand, like that of age, had pinched, and twisted them, and pulled them into shreds. *Where angels might have sat enthroned, devils lurked, and glared out menacing. No change, no degradation, no perversion of humanity, in any grade, through all the mysteries of wonderful creation, has monsters half so horrible and dread.*

Scrooge started back, appalled. Having them shown to him in this way, he tried to say they were fine children, but the words choked themselves, rather than be parties to a lie of such enormous magnitude.
`Spirit. are they yours.' Scrooge could say no more.

`They are Man's,' said the Spirit, looking down upon them. `And they cling to me, appealing from their fathers. *This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy, for on his brow I see that written which is Doom*, unless the writing be erased. Deny it.' cried the Spirit, stretching out its hand towards the city. `Slander those who tell it ye. Admit it for your factious purposes, and make it worse. And abide the end.'
`Have they no refuge or resource.' cried Scrooge.

Are there no prisons.' said the Spirit, turning on him for the last time with his own words. `Are there no workhouses.' The bell struck twelve.

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## buffnut453 (Jan 29, 2017)

Christmas Carol is my all-time favourite story. Even saw Patrick Stewart perform it live in a one-man show (yes, one man...it was amazing). The scary thing is that the more information we have available, the more ignorant we seem to become, not least because we gravitate to information sources that align with our preconceptions which reduces scope for challenging ideas and ultimately results in poorer (or at least less well-rounded and nuanced) political solutions. How I wish we could have a more grown-up political dialog and open discussion of issues rather than immediately resorting to name-calling and labelling people.

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## michaelmaltby (Jan 29, 2017)

".... the more information we have available, the more ignorant we seem to become"

My mother was taught and taught me: "a _little_ knowledge is a dangerous thing".

_Education_ is not judgement or common sense .... we have over-educated in the liberal arts and social sciences, raising expectations, sense of entitlement and promoting social dissatisfaction ... without imparting real courage, discipline, morality or good judgement.


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## parsifal (Jan 29, 2017)

for me the overriding symbol on this whole issue is the Lady justice, which is based on the roman goddess of Justice (latin _Iustitia) . _

Lady Justice is most often depicted with a set of scales typically suspended from her left hand, upon which she measures the strengths of a case's support and opposition. She is also often seen carrying a double-edged sword in her right hand, symbolizing the power of Reason and Justice, which may be wielded either for or against any party. The downward direction of the sword is meant to symbolize punishment but tempered with mercy.

Since the 15th century, Lady Justice has often been depicted wearing a blindfold. The blindfold represents impartiality, the ideal that justice should be applied without regard to wealth, power, race, prejudice, or other status. The earliest Roman coins depicted Justitia with the sword in one hand and the scale in the other, but with her eyes uncovered.Justitia was only commonly represented as "blind" since about the end of the 15th century.

At the end of WWII new concepts about collective guilt were introduced that had not previously been applied . It was based on the notion that war guilt could be applied on a national basis, that in effect the nation as a whole was guilty. Germany's war guilt was never tested but was embedded in the unconditional surrender. It holds the nation as a whole to account something which remains in place to this day. there is no sunset clause to this finding, Germany will be guilty in the eyes of the law for eternity for causing the war. As far as I'm aware, there is no recourse to appeal that finding.

The Nuremberg trials required as a prerequisite that the individuals placed on trial must first be from a nation in which war guilt had been established. It was a legal tool of convenience so that the allies could not be put on trial as well. The process was flawed, but it was better than some of the other methods of summary punishment meted out at the end of the war. Stalin for example just wanted to shoot all of the SS plus 100000 Germans picked randomly. Churchill was not much better. The mobs unleashed in the unoccupied territories equated justice with vengeance when in fact nothing could be further from the truth

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## Lucky13 (Feb 19, 2018)




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## taly01 (Feb 20, 2018)

The problem with war hate propaganda is that it effects the "worst" people the most. I think all sides WW2 propaganda was rather crass but I often wonder that the English were most effected by it for generations.... "Pink Floyd" and "The Who" both have very strong and sad WW2 imagery in some of there music films of massed bomber formations killing civilians.


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## Greg Boeser (Feb 20, 2018)

Well, they lived it and it left an indelible mark. Just as radioactive monsters populate Japanese postwar movies.

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## ARTESH (Oct 21, 2021)

Sorry for bringing this old topic, up.

This is written after reading original linked topic and this topic.

That was how "outsiders" acted and treated with German People, now just imagine what was the situation on Germany itself, I would not be surprised if I ever hear that ex Army / (specially) SS troopers were assassinated / humiliated by German People (obviously, not all of them) after the end of war, or their graves / houses were destroyed / ransacked.

And very similar things happened, and unfortunately, is happening right now in Iran by Regime fanatics and IRGC backed brainwashed people. I've seen and heard any kind of disrespect and even, insults, from IRGC so-called "Generals" ... 

Long story short, it's normal what happened in The Netherlands or any other German occupied place in Europe and Africa, but those that the German (or any other nation) people done to their own, is a real pain and sorrow.

However, said words does not mean that I accept what happened to those who fought for their country.

May souls of all lost people rest in eternal peace.


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## Marcel (Oct 22, 2021)

No worries about bringing this up Artesh. We pinned this for a reason and it’s good if it’s mentioned from time to time.

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## manta22 (Sep 6, 2022)

michaelmaltby said:


> .. well said ... and nothing begets evil like poverty, jealousy and ignorance.


Not poverty itself. I have lived in places where the people were so hungry that they went through our garbage cans to find food and their clothes were rags or their old military uniforms. Even in such poverty, these people did not steal. *It is a matter of moral character!*

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## manta22 (Sep 6, 2022)

One more observation- I was an American GI in Germany during the most dangerous days of the Cold War, 1961 to 1963, the Berlin Wall had just gone up. Our kaserne was located on the edge of a small town named Babenhausen. In this old Medieval town were a few "GI bars" where troops normally hung out when off duty. I preferred at times to seek out a quieter place to enjoy a bier or two. There was a small local place that I found, "zum Hanauer Tor", that didn't attract GIs but had a friendly local atmosphere that I liked. I noticed that on many evenings there were older Germans who enjoyed the camaraderie there. On one evening there were only a couple of them at a table and they invited me to join them. Between broken English And broken German, I found out that this group were veterans of the Afrika Korps. There was no animosity on either side; the was was over and we were just soldiers together. 
As it should be.

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## manta22 (Sep 6, 2022)

manta22 said:


> One more observation- I was an American GI in Germany during the most dangerous days of the Cold War, 1961 to 1963, the Berlin Wall had just gone up. Our kaserne was located on the edge of a small town named Babenhausen. In this old Medieval town were a few "GI bars" where troops normally hung out when off duty. I preferred at times to seek out a quieter place to enjoy a bier or two. There was a small local place that I found, "zum Hanauer Tor", that didn't attract GIs but had a friendly local atmosphere that I liked. I noticed that on many evenings there were older Germans who enjoyed the camaraderie there. On one evening there were only a couple of them at a table and they invited me to join them. Between broken English And broken German, I found out that this group were veterans of the Afrika Korps. There was no animosity on either side; the was was over and we were just soldiers together.
> As it should be.


At the suggestion of my wife, Joline, I'll add a post script: We returned to Germany in 2013 (that's another long story) so I had an opportunity to re-visit my old Kaserne. It was now closed but walking through Babenhausen I found zum Hanauer Tor still existed. Joline and I went in and found that little had changed since I had last been there in 1963. I told the bartender/owner that I had been there 50 years ago as an American GI. He insisted on buying us both a bier. ("beer" for those who have never been there). As I said, a nice friendly local place... since the year 1620.

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## manta22 (Sep 6, 2022)

manta22 said:


> At the suggestion of my wife, Joline, I'll add a post script: We returned to Germany in 2013 (that's another long story) so I had an opportunity to re-visit my old Kaserne. It was now closed but walking through Babenhausen I found zum Hanauer Tor still existed. Joline and I went in and found that little had changed since I had last been there in 1963. I told the bartender/owner that I had been there 50 years ago as an American GI. He insisted on buying us both a bier. ("beer" for those who have never been there). As I said, a nice friendly local place... since the year 1620.


One last thing: There was one German guard who patrolled the inside fence around my old Kaserne. We talked together briefly through the fence and he told me that he had once been an East German officer!

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## ARTESH (Sep 7, 2022)

manta22
, Very interesting story! Thanks for sharing.


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## Marcel (Sep 7, 2022)

Great story manta. My father served at the East German border around the same time. He was a bit more to the north in Fallingbostel. He was there during the Cuba Crisis, which was pretty tense as far as I understood from him.

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## vikingBerserker (Sep 7, 2022)

Man, that'd been awesome to sit at a table with veterans of the Afrika Korps!!

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## ARTESH (Sep 7, 2022)

vikingBerserker said:


> Man, that'd been awesome to sit at a table with veterans of the Afrika Korps!!


That's a pity that we can't use multiple reactions!!!

I owe you a bacon for this!


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## manta22 (Sep 7, 2022)

Marcel said:


> Great story manta. My father served at the East German border around the same time. He was a bit more to the north in Fallingbostel. He was there during the Cuba Crisis, which was pretty tense as far as I understood from him.


Thank you, Marcel. Your father was there during a very dangerous time.
I was selected to stay on at the Ordnance Guided Missile School in Redstone Arsenal as an instructor in Corporal IIB ground guidance, a course that I had just graduated from. During the "Cuban Crisis" there was a lot of griping about the President's order extending the enlistments of our troops. Some were put in a real bind as they had bought things like cars, homes, etc anticipating that they would be discharged in a few weeks and then could get a good-paying civilian job to make their loan payments. Instead, they were faced with paying off their loans while still making $85 a month as a soldier. When the Berlin Wall construction began, the Army realized that they needed to bring their strategic forces in Europe up to full strength immediately so trained guided missile personnel were a high priority. Guided missiles, especially the Corporal IIB, required recruiting men with GT scores of 120+ (100 was "average") and the training course was almost six months long so to short-circuit the delay, they went down the alphabetical list of instructors at OGMS and took the two guys at the top of the list- A & B. Neil Albaugh & David Brummett were whisked off to Germany to fill two open slots in the 157th Ordnance Detachment. We were detached to the 1st Missile Bn, 38th Artillery, part of V Corps. As I said earlier, our fire mission was to defend the Fulda Gap. Our unit, like all NATO forces at that time spent a lot of time training. Alerts were called at random times of the day or night and we scrambled to get into our full field gear, draw our M-14s and ammo from the arms room, hook up all our equipment to our trucks and drive to a pre-designated assembly area. We would then be given another location where we would set up a missile on its launcher, ready to fire. Word then would be received that this had been only an "FTX" - a field training exercise- stand down.
Some Alerts were not extensive but NATO-wide Alerts put a hundred thousand or more troops on the move. I remember one instance where things were so tense that demolition charges were placed in our kaserne to destroy it after we left. Frequently we were issued Thermite grenades to destroy our classified equipment to prevent it from falling into Soviet hands. I was SP5 E5 P2, Section Chief of the ground guidance section. (I'll bet nobody knows what "P2" meant. 
Forgive me for beginning to make this sound like a dime novel but that was exactly how it was at the time.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 7, 2022)

vikingBerserker said:


> Man, that'd been awesome to sit at a table with veterans of the Afrika Korps!!



When I in HS on a US Army base in Stuttgart, Germany, Field Marshal Erwin Rommel’s son Manfred Rommel was the mayor of Stuttgart. Manfred was very active in building a good relationship with the US military, and he was also active in the Afrika Korps Veterans association.

When I was in JROTC, he was the guest of honor at our military ball, and with him he brought several Afrika Korps veterans. We also took part in the 50th Anniversary of his fathers suicide memorial and laid a wreath at his grave, along with the US Army’s 1st Infantry Division, and the veterans of the Afrika Korps. I have a great pic somewhere of us standing in formation with the 1st ID and Afrika Korps vets, with Manfred giving a speech at his fathers grave.

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## manta22 (Sep 7, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> When I in HS on a US Army base in Stuttgart, Germany, Field Marshal Erwin Rommel’s son Manfred Rommel was the mayor of Stuttgart. Manfred was very active in building a good relationship with the US military, and he was also active in the Afrika Korps Veterans association.
> 
> When I was in JROTC, he was the guest of honor at our military ball, and with him he brought several Afrika Korps veterans. We also took part in the 50th Anniversary of his fathers suicide memorial and laid a wreath at his grave, along with the US Army’s 1st Infantry Division, and the veterans of the Afrika Korps. I have a great pic somewhere of us standing in formation with the 1st ID and Afrika Korps vets, with Manfred giving a speech at his fathers grave.


By the 50th Anniversary of Erwin Rommel's death there were not many veterans still left. Rommel was well respected by most- friend and enemy alike. My Dad once told me that he (ER) traveled incognito to the US before the war to study how the Ringling Brothers Barnum & Bailey circus managed to be able to travel with such a big organization. His interest was in mobility. I wish I knew how Dad knew this.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 8, 2022)

manta22 said:


> By the 50th Anniversary of Erwin Rommel's death there were not many veterans still left. Rommel was well respected by most- friend and enemy alike. My Dad once told me that he (ER) traveled incognito to the US before the war to study how the Ringling Brothers Barnum & Bailey circus managed to be able to travel with such a big organization. His interest was in mobility. I wish I knew how Dad knew this.



Rommel never actually visited the US. There are several versions of this. In others he was studying Stonewall Jackson for example. His son Manfred confirmed that his father never visited the US.


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## SaparotRob (Sep 8, 2022)

Myth BUSTED.


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## manta22 (Sep 8, 2022)

Thank you. for confirming that he did not do that. Manfred should know.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 8, 2022)

manta22 said:


> Thank you. for confirming that he did not do that. Manfred should know.



Yeah, there are a lot of myths floating around about the famed desert fox.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 8, 2022)

While speaking of the fox, here are some pics I took during my last visit to the site of his death, as well as his grave.

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## manta22 (Sep 8, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> While speaking of the fox, here are some pics I took during my last visit to the site of his death, as well as his grave.
> 
> View attachment 685918
> View attachment 685919
> ...


Thanks for the pictures. I have not seen those before.


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