# Japan pulls back on denials of WWII sex slaves



## Thorlifter (May 8, 2013)

Japan pulls back on denials of WWII sex slavery

TOKYO (AP) — Japan has acknowledged that it conducted only a limited investigation before claiming there was no official evidence that its imperial troops coerced Asian women into sexual slavery before and during World War II.

A parliamentary statement signed Tuesday by Prime Minister Shinzo Abe acknowledged the government had a set of documents produced by a postwar international military tribunal containing testimony by Japanese soldiers about abducting Chinese women as military sex slaves. That evidence apparently was not included in Japan's only investigation of the issue, in 1991-1993.

Tuesday's parliamentary statement also said documents showing forcible sex slavery may still exist. The statement did not say whether the government plans to consider the documents as evidence showing that troops had coerced women into sexual slavery.

Over the past two days, top officials of Abe's conservative government have appeared to soften their stance on Japan's past apologies to neighboring countries for wartime atrocities committed by the Imperial Army, saying Japan does not plan to revise them.

The backtracking appears intended to allay criticisms of Abe's earlier vows to revise the apologies, including an acknowledgment of sexual slavery during the war, and calm tensions with neighbors South Korea and China. The U.S. government also has raised concerns about Abe's nationalist agenda.

Abe has acknowledged so-called "comfort women" existed but denied they were coerced into prostitution, citing a lack of official evidence. He also has repeatedly vowed to reassess apologies by past Japanese administrations.

The parliamentary statement, released Tuesday and seen by the Associated Press on Wednesday, was in response to an official inquiry last month to the upper house of Parliament by opposition lawmaker Tomoko Kami, who said the government's investigation into sex slavery was "insufficient" and documents it claimed to have collected were incomplete.

Kami, of the Japan Communist Party, also asked whether the government had ever updated its archives to reflect more recent findings than the earlier investigation. The answer was no.

The statement acknowledged documents produced by the 1946-1948 International Military Tribunal for the Far East, held in Tokyo, but said they were not in the Cabinet Secretariat's archives. It did not say when the documents were found or whether they are reflected in any official statements about sexual slavery.

Abe also has criticized the tribunal's decisions as "condemnation by the allied victors' judgment," but has said he's in no position to object to the rulings Japan had already accepted.

The parliamentary statement described the 1993 findings as "the result of an all-out and sincere investigation" that brought "closure." But it said the government is open to updates if new findings are valid.

"Due to the nature of the issue, there is a possibility that previously unavailable documents may be discovered. In such a case, we are asking related ministries and offices to report to the Cabinet," it said.

The documents quote testimony from Japanese soldiers saying they recruited women by posting advertisements for factory workers and "threatened them and used them as prostitutes for the bestial lust of the troops."

One army lieutenant testified that he helped set up a brothel for soldiers including himself, forcing five women in the city of Guilin in southern China to work as prostitutes for eight months.

Meanwhile, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga said Wednesday that Japan recognizes the harm it caused during its invasion and occupation of much of Asia, and that it has repeatedly and clearly stated that position.

"The Abe government has expressed sincere condolences to all victims of the war, in and out of the country, and there is no change in that," Suga said in response to a question about a comment by South Korean President Park Geun-hye, published in The Washington Post this week, asserting that Japan should correct its view of its wartime history.

Foreign Minister Fumio Kishida echoed Suga's remarks.

"The Japanese government has accepted the facts of history in a spirit of humility, expressed once again our feelings of deep remorse and our heartfelt apology, and expressed our feelings of profound mourning for all victims, both at home and abroad," he told reporters. "And Prime Minister Abe shares the same view."

China and South Korea have reacted harshly to recent nationalistic events and remarks, including visits by several Japanese government ministers and nearly 170 lawmakers to Tokyo's Yasukuni Shrine, which memorializes 2.3 million war dead, including 14 wartime leaders convicted of war crimes. Rancor over territorial disputes has further strained relations between Japan and its neighbors.

Only in the past two decades has Japan acknowledged some of its past brutalities, including medical atrocities and use of poison gas, as well as sexual slavery — a legacy that still haunts Tokyo's relations with its neighbors.

Before he took office in December, Abe had advocated revising a 1993 statement by then-Prime Minister Yohei Kono expressing remorse for the suffering caused to the sexual slaves of Japanese troops.


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## Readie (May 8, 2013)

'Only in the past two decades has Japan acknowledged some of its past brutalities, including medical atrocities and use of poison gas, as well as sexual slavery — a legacy that still haunts Tokyo's relations with its neighbors'.

Something to remember when you drive your Toyota...


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## FLYBOYJ (May 8, 2013)

Let's not make this political gents!


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## Thorlifter (May 8, 2013)

Yeah, we don't fuss about Mercedes Benz when we talk about the Nazi's. 

It has always been head shaking to me when I think about how (in general) the Japanese basically just stick with ..... "It didn't happen" or "We don't know what your talking about". I guess if you keep saying it didn't happen long enough, people will start to believe it.


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## raumatibeach (May 9, 2013)

Readie said:


> 'Only in the past two decades has Japan acknowledged some of its past brutalities, including medical atrocities and use of poison gas, as well as sexual slavery — a legacy that still haunts Tokyo's relations with its neighbors'.
> 
> Something to remember when you drive your Toyota...



I drive a Toyota Hilux, they are made in Thailand


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## Readie (May 9, 2013)

Thorlifter said:


> Yeah, we don't fuss about Mercedes Benz when we talk about the Nazi's.



Not so much these days but, up till the mid 1970's buying any German car was seen as deeply unpatriotic here.
Best not to mention buying Jap to any Burma Star vet in those days either.

Nowadays, German cars are seen as quality motors and Japanese equals quality reliability. Look at the JD Power survey Which etc.

We may have won the military war but, we have lost the economic war both here and in the USA.


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## Shinpachi (May 9, 2013)

Abe seems only wanting to correct exaggeration by the neighbors.
Don't call us Jap, please.


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## Readie (May 9, 2013)

Shinpachi said:


> I have edited my post, sorry I didn't mean any offense.
> Cheers
> John


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## Shinpachi (May 9, 2013)

Thanks John!


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## Thorlifter (May 9, 2013)

Shinpachi said:


> Abe seems only wanting to correct exaggeration by the neighbors.



As always Shinpachi, even though we don't always agree, I'm glad you responded to this thread as I always respect your perspective. What are the neighbors saying that is wrong? And by neighbors I'm assuming you mean China and possibly Korea?

The way I see it is I have no problem with national pride at all. I love my country just as I know you love yours. I just have a problem with changing facts and history just because people don't like the past and the "black eye" it gives them. For example, in the U.S., I hate how the settlers treated the indians, but we don't deny it happened or say it wasn't that bad.


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## raumatibeach (May 10, 2013)

Shinpachi said:


> Abe seems only wanting to correct exaggeration by the neighbors.
> Don't call us Jap, please.



Who was exaggerating? Are you saying Japan didn't force women to become sex slaves in world war 2?


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## Shinpachi (May 10, 2013)

Thanks Thor for your kind courtesy if I may comment some about the issues with our neighbors.

In my point of view, Japan has been not only stating her sincere apologies about the last war but providing great amount of financial aids, probably hundreds of billion in US dollars, as well as generous technological assistances to those Asian countries Japan had committed during the war. 

However, in my impression, Chinese in the continent and Koreans in the peninsula are not satisfied with them yet.
They may have been seeing our generosity based on our regrets about the past as our weak point and may be thinking if they request more, we will give them everything they want, even our territory in the future. This is political, so I quit.

It is a part of common sense for us Japanese that IJA did not commit managing brothels because services for the military were specialized by the civilians but our neighbors innocently claim IJA cheated girls. It's impossible.

If I may comment on the Rape of Nanking, there are not a few strange facts in our Japanese point of view.
I am ready to comment in details anytime.

Thanks.


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## N4521U (May 10, 2013)

Personally, I don't think this thread is a very healthy discourse on this subject.

I recall when I first came onto the forum I used the shortened term for Japanese,
and was quickly warned I would be banished if I did it again.


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## Thorlifter (May 10, 2013)

I respectfully disagree Bill. I think this thread is the perfect place to discuss it and Shinpachi is gracious enough to offer the Japanese point of view. The mistake was made with the shortened word for Japanese, it was pointed out, it was corrected, and the apology was made. It think that's the way it should work.

It will continue to amaze me that we can freely discuss Nazi atrocities and to a point on Russian atrocities (I've never seen an in depth discussion), but each time someone brings up what the Japanese are accused of, it's almost "verboten". That's why I respect Shinpachi even more for his willingness to discuss it from Japan's P.O.V.

Moving on.......I never knew Japan had paid all that money to other countries as financial aid. Thank you for that information. 

In books I have read, it has been mentioned that it was believed if a soldier had sex the night before battle, that he was invincible. Do you know if this belief was true? You stated "It is a part of common sense for us Japanese that IJA did not commit managing brothels because services for the military were specialized by the civilians but our neighbors innocently claim IJA cheated girls. It's impossible." I don't believe the issue is being focused on what the IJA did, but what the Japanese, as a whole, did in regards to this subject. Whether it was the IJA itself or some guy named Bob supplying girls for the IJA, either way it was girls being used as sex slaves and most were in that role NOT of their free will.


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## raumatibeach (May 10, 2013)

I'd be interested in hearing more about the billions of dollars of financial aid Japan has given to the countries it invaded during the war.But first Shinpachi I realise english isn't your first language so expand on this please



> It is a part of common sense for us Japanese that IJA did not commit managing brothels because services for the military were specialized by the civilians but our neighbors innocently claim IJA cheated girls. It's impossible.



It doesn't really matter which Japanese people kept the women as sex slaves it looks very much like Japan is trying trying to weasel out of taking responsibilty for their horrendous behavior on some sort of technicality.


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## Thorlifter (May 10, 2013)

raumatibeach said:


> It doesn't really matter which Japanese people kept the women as sex slaves it looks very much like Japan is trying trying to weasel out of taking responsibilty for their horrendous behavior on some sort of technicality.



This is a touchy subject to some, especially to my friend Shinpachi. Please be more respectful with your comments.


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## Shinpachi (May 11, 2013)

Limitting to the topic of sex slaves, OK, I will search and show you guys some interesting paper scraps that Korean Goverment has introduced recently as an evidence of comfort ladies.

Thanks again, Thor, for your kind courtesy and Sorry, Bill, if I may have made you unpleasant.
That was not my intention.


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## N4521U (May 11, 2013)

No worries Shinpachi. It's not you at all. It's the subject.
I only peeked in now because you were the latest to post.

I usually don't look in on these types of postings. I should not have added my thoughts.


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## raumatibeach (May 11, 2013)

Thorlifter said:


> This is a touchy subject to some, especially to my friend Shinpachi. Please be more respectful with your comments.



I realise this is a touchy subject but if a German poster said his country wasn't responsible for his countries behavior during world war two because it was run by an Austrian he'd deservedly be greeted with howls of derision. I really don't think it matters who was in charge of the sex slaves , quibbling over which Japanese people did it looks like they are trying to somehow minimise or deflect from what happened.


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## Shinpachi (May 11, 2013)

Thanks Bill for your kindest thoughts and comments. 
Sorry again but I have no way but go forward now as I do not want us to be misunderstood in the history forever.


Gents,
These small newspaper ad photos are the evidence of comfort ladies that Korean Government has showed us.
Let me quote all senteces with English translation so that you can understand what they describe.







(Left one)
『軍』慰安婦急募 Urgently Wanted Comfort Ladies for the “Army”
一、行先　○○部隊慰安所 Destination: Not decided yet but troops comfort station
一、應募資格　年齢十八歳以上三十歳以内身體？？？？ Qualification requirements: Age from 18 to 30. Healthy???
一、募集期日　十月二十七日부터十一月八日까지 Recruitment date: From October 27 to November 8.
一、出発日　十一月十日頃 Departure date: around November 10.
一、本人面接하？即時決定할 Adoption will be decided after the interview immediately.
一、募集人員　数十名 Recruiting number: several dozens
一、希望者　左記まで至急？？ Applicant contact with the following company
京城府？？？？？町一九五 195 ????? Seoul Prefecture
（？）？？？門　(Company name)
？①二六四五 (Phone number)
（許氏） Mr. Ho (Korean name person in charge)

朝鮮総督府機関紙 Quoted from an organ paper of Korea Government-General
“毎日新報” Mae Il Shin Bo (News paper in Korean language)
1944年10月27日広告 Newspaper ad dated October 27, 1944



(Right one)
慰安婦　至急　大募集　Urgently Wanted Many Comfort Ladies
年齢　一七歳以上三十三歳迄 Age: From 17 to 33.
勤先　後方○○隊慰安所 Place of work: Troops comfort station after the front
月収　三○○圓以上（前借三○○○圓迄可）Monthly income: more than 300yen(loan up to 3,000yen OK )
午前八時より午後十時まで本人？？Interview?: from 8:00am to 10:00pm
京城府？？？二○ (Company address) 20??? Seoul Prefecture
今井紹介所 (Company name) Imai Agency (Japanese company)
電話②？？？ (phone)

新聞”京城日報”1944年7月26日 Quoted from Newspaper “Keijo(Seoul) Nippo(Daily)” dated July 26, 1944

To compare, the starting salary for a policeman was 45yen in 1944.
Were they slaves?


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## tyrodtom (May 11, 2013)

Do the ads prove that is the pay they actually got ?

Do the adds prove that was was their sole method of getting women ?


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## Shinpachi (May 11, 2013)

Hello, tyrodtom.
That is frankly a difficult question for me to answer because commercial morality depends on individual and may be different country by country.

Have you noticed that Japanese ad shows target salary but Korean's not? That is because commercial practices were/are different.
They negotiate price each time but we decide buy or not checking price tags.


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## Shinpachi (May 11, 2013)

tyrodtom said:


> Do the adds prove that was was their sole method of getting women ?



Are you talking about the root of human evil?
In that sense, I do not think so.


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## Shinpachi (May 11, 2013)

Sorry again but I have forgot to tell.
There were Japanese comfort ladies too.


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## Readie (May 11, 2013)

Shinpachi,
Can you help me with this please.
Do you think that the apologies issued by Japan since 1945 have made your countries relations with your neighbours better over time?
Forgiveness from the victims takes time as they have to come to terms with what happened too.
Like Thorlifter, I appreciate your contributions to this thread.
Best wishes
John


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 11, 2013)

I don't see this happening here, but people have to remember also that the modern people of Japan are not to blame (just like those in Germany) for the actions 70 years ago. They have no reason to feel guilty, nor should they. That is why it is sensitive for many. Many people today still wish to blame them too.

There is a difference between govt. and the people. 

Lets not try and our friend Shinpachi feel uncomfortable.


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## Readie (May 11, 2013)

I agree Chris, I'm very interested to hear Shinpachi point of view.


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## raumatibeach (May 11, 2013)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I don't see this happening here, but people have to remember also that the modern people of Japan are not to blame (just like those in Germany) for the actions 70 years ago. They have no reason to feel guilty, nor should they. That is why it is sensitive for many. Many people today still wish to blame them too.
> 
> There is a difference between govt. and the people.
> 
> Lets not try and our friend Shinpachi feel uncomfortable.




I totally understand, I don't blame the Japanese people of today for what happened in World war 2 . I do have a problem with those today that try to deny or minimise what happened though.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 11, 2013)

raumatibeach said:


> I totally understand, I don't blame the Japanese people of today for what happened in World war 2 . I do have a problem with those today that try to deny or minimise what happened though.



There is a difference between the govt. and the people.


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## raumatibeach (May 11, 2013)

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Holcaust denial a crime in Germany?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 11, 2013)

raumatibeach said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Holcaust denial a crime in Germany?



_§ 130 Public Incitement (1985, Revised 1992, 2002, 2005)

(1) Whoever, in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace:

incites hatred against segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or
assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population,
shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years.
(...)

*(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or belittles an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the type indicated in Section 6 subsection (1) of the Code of Crimes against International Law, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine.

(4) Whoever publicly or in a meeting disturbs the public peace in a manner that assaults the human dignity of the victims by approving of, denying or rendering harmless the violent and arbitrary National Socialist rule shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine. (...)*_


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## N4521U (May 11, 2013)

I've said it once before. If it cannot be posted in a thread, it should not be said. I received this PM this morning. I will preface it with "people who live in glass houses should not throw stones".



Readie said:


> Bill,
> Am I missing something on this forum? why do we ***** foot around the Japanese about their war crimes?
> I am not stirring it up...I genuinely don't get it.
> Do you?
> ...



When the British are ready to apologize for helping the Japanese to build a fleet, including carriers and capital ships, and the ability to put "big bombs on small planes", construct carrier planes as well as teach their pilots to take off and land on said carriers and perfect their bombing skills. This was all done in about 7 years following WWI. This gave the IJN the capability to carry out the attack on Pearl Harbor, to begin with.

When the British are ready to apologize for wiping out the indigenous population of Tazmania. For persecuting almost every indigenous race of every new "discovery" around the world including the U.S., then I will accept bringing up This or any other subject that opens old wounds for no reason at all but to create "hate and discontent among the troops".

So please, do not get me involved in this conversation by sending unwanted PM's when I have expressed my unwillingness to contribute to this thread. There must be other forums for this kind of discourse!

Shinpaci, there is no reason why you should have to Explain all that took place in 1944. If this does need explanation, let them research it elsewhere. It just makes me crazy.

Just Plane Bill


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 11, 2013)

Interesting and thank you for posting this

Trying to incite is not very nice. If someone does not get it, or like the forum, there are other forums out there they can frequent.


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## raumatibeach (May 11, 2013)

We are talking at cross purposes here i think, I'm talking about the denial or minimization of the crimes. I see on this thread it's being claimed that the sex slaves were willing participants, if so why would they bother claiming after all this time that they were not? Why aren't we allowed to discuss or debunk claims like that?

Not trying to incite anything at all and if anyone wants to talk about the crimes of the british empire start a thread i'd be interested to read it. I don't see what Britains past behaviour has to do with Japans sex slavery.
btw N4521U I see the British government has announced that victims of their colonial oppression in Kenya can now claim compensation, I don't recall Britain trying to pretend that their history is littered with horrendous treatment of native tribes, God knows we are still paying for it here in NZ.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 11, 2013)

No one is saying it can't be discussed. Why do you think this? Where has it been said that it can't???

Does discussing it mean that it has to be done in a confrontational manner?

One also does not have to go behind peoples back, and tell people to stop "pussyfooting" about it. It is trying to incite confrontation.

Now, I am going to go and drink a few Franziskaners and warch Hockey. Go Pens!


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## Shinpachi (May 11, 2013)

Readie said:


> Shinpachi,
> Can you help me with this please.
> Do you think that the apologies issued by Japan since 1945 have made your countries relations with your neighbours better over time?
> Forgiveness from the victims takes time as they have to come to terms with what happened too.
> ...




Thanks for your kind comment, John.

Please let me say cleary that Exaggeration must be pointed out and corrected.


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## Shinpachi (May 11, 2013)

Sorry, I did not read all posts.
I appreciate your kindest consideration about my position, Adler.


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## N4521U (May 11, 2013)

raumatibeach said:


> We are talking at cross purposes here i think, I'm talking about the denial or minimization of the crimes. I see on this thread it's being claimed that the sex slaves were willing participants, if so why would they bother claiming after all this time that they were not? *Why aren't we allowed to discuss or debunk claims like that?*
> 
> Not trying to incite anything at all and if anyone wants to talk about the crimes of the british empire start a thread i'd be interested to read it. *I don't see what Britains past behaviour has to do with Japans sex slavery*.
> btw N4521U I see the British government has announced that victims of their colonial oppression in* Kenya can now claim compensation*, I don't recall Britain trying to pretend that their history is littered with horrendous treatment of native tribes, God knows we are still paying for it here in NZ.



And what is wrong with ME expressing my displeasure with being dragged back into a discussion I don't want to take part in by having someone sending me a F'n PM as above when I have already stated in a post I don't want to take part int it!!!!!!! 

Perhaps if those in the know in Britain at the time had not helped the IJN in developing weapons that were capable of carrying out their attacks on Pearl Harbor and other parts of the Pacific, there would have been no Need for Comfort women.

Well Kenya........... how big of Britain!

PLEASE................................. leave me out of this! ***read my above post carefully!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 11, 2013)

Lets all calm down...

If someone says they do not wish to be a part of it, respect their wishes. Don't be a foolish dick.



Shinpachi said:


> Sorry, I did not read all posts.
> I appreciate your kindest consideration about my position, Adler.



I just understand. You are the only Japanese member of this forum. In a topic like this, it can be overwhelming, especially when it seems you have to be constantly on the defensive.

My Germsn wife goes through the same thing, when the discussion comes up with many of my fellow Americans as well as a few British. She has actually been told once that she should have to answer for the actions of the Nazis, yet she was born almost 40 years after the war ended, and her parents were not even alive.

This discussion should continue. You being modern Japanese have insight to the topic the rest of us do not. The history should not be forgotten. The victims should not be forgotten. Discussing it in a civil non confrontational manner is not "pussyfooting" about it though.

We are all supposed to be friends right?


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## VBF-13 (May 11, 2013)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Now, I am going to go and drink a few Franziskaners and warch Hockey.


OK now you got my attention.



DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Go Pens!


You mean Hawks. But they're off tonight.


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## Shinpachi (May 11, 2013)

Thanks my friend, Adler.


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## raumatibeach (May 12, 2013)

I do'nt think I've been disrespectful or confrontational at all. I just dislike revisionism and spin. I also think it's incredibly condescending to be outraged on someone elses behalf, Shinpachi has proven in the past he's perfectly capable of communicating his side of the debate.

Shinpachi, if the women were voluntary prostates why are they still claiming all these years later that they were sex slaves? It doesn't really add up, any more to add to the debate?


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## Shinpachi (May 12, 2013)

raumatibeach said:


> Shinpachi, if the women were voluntary prostates why are they still claiming all these years later that they were sex slaves? It doesn't really add up, any more to add to the debate?



This may be unbelievable for you, raumatibeach, but please allow me to state what I saw and felt as it is.

As long as I watched those ladies who used to be young half a century ago on TV(Korean TV introduced in Japan) a few years ago, they looked being asked to join there by their government. Though I didn't see, a friend of mine pointed out a lady showed her old passbook during the war as an evidence. Their intention would have been to show how low wage it was for her. The passbook was showing 'only' thousands of Yen. Thousands of Yen is equivalent to tens of dollars in today's monetary value but, in the 1940's, it was equivalent to hundreds of thouand dollars today. Modern Koreans may be unfamiliar with such old foreign currency value but she could have known the value well. If it had been her own will to be on TV, she would never have shown the passbook.

What they want us?
It would be money, of course.

Sorry if my expression is so direct.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 12, 2013)

raumatibeach said:


> I do'nt think I've been disrespectful or confrontational at all. I just dislike revisionism and spin. I also think it's incredibly condescending to be outraged on someone elses behalf, Shinpachi has proven in the past he's perfectly capable of communicating his side of the debate.
> 
> Shinpachi, if the women were voluntary prostates why are they still claiming all these years later that they were sex slaves? It doesn't really add up, any more to add to the debate?



I also have not been talking about you.

Are you the one PMing people telling them to stop "pussyfooting" about it?

So how about you get on with the conversation.


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## Readie (May 12, 2013)

Thanks Bill.
Chris and everyone else, I apologise wholeheartedly and I have made a bad error of judgement.
My fault for asking someone I thought may be able to help me in private rather than post on the main thread.
I promise not to repeat this.
I'll leave it to Chris whether this is bannable offence.
I will accept your decision without question.
Again, I am deeply sorry.
John


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## tyrodtom (May 12, 2013)

We've all sinned, as have our countries. But it seems like a lot of us like to showcase other people's/countries sins, and minimize our own.

Shinpachi, I remember when I was in Japan in the mid 1960's it was 360 yen to a dollar, or 1 yen was about 1/4 cent. But the also had the sen, which was even less, 50 sen = ?? yen. I could see that the sen was a useless money donomination then, because you couldn't buy anything with 1 sen. ( at that time, you could get a small orange flavored drink with 2 yen), I though the sen might have been left over from their older monetary system, when a yen was worth a lot more.


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## VBF-13 (May 12, 2013)

Readie said:


> Don't go there mate...


OK, this is what I don't understand. Supposing I referred to you as a "Brit?" Are you offended? I have Jewish friends who refer to themselves as "Jews." All I'm saying is if "Jap" took on a derogatory innuendo, I wasn't aware of it. That said, I certainly have no issue respecting other's perceptions. It's just not worth fighting about.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 12, 2013)

Readie said:


> Thanks Bill.
> Chris and everyone else, I apologise wholeheartedly and I have made a bad error of judgement.
> My fault for asking someone I thought may be able to help me in private rather than post on the main thread.
> I promise not to repeat this.
> ...



Why would I ban you? Very disrespectful though, and to me it leaves trust issues.

And why not go there, on a question about Holocaust denial?


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## Readie (May 12, 2013)

Shinpachi,
I offer you my apologies for my actions.
My life expectancy on this forum will be short now as soon as Chris reads my PM.
Best wishes
John


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 12, 2013)

There is no reason for a banning...

Get back on topic.


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## Matt308 (May 12, 2013)

I agree. And I wish to jump in here. If someone sends you a PM, it is intended to be a PRIVATE MESSAGE. Posting it in the public forum castrating the PM originator is childish and uncalled for. If you have a problem with the PM content, resolve it PRIVATELY or contact a Moderator.

As Adler has said multiple times, there is not a reason for a banning unless things spiral out of control. Please get back to the topic. I'll help...

Human trafficking (slavery) is a huge issue even in these modern times. Today we have foreigners entering into the US (many of them illegal women) being told that they have a paying job lined up. Reality is that once they arrive, the language and societal barriers force them to depend upon their handlers for food, clothing, shelter and healthcare. This dependence coupled with the very real threat of deportation forces these "slaves" underground and subject to very serious abuse (e.g. sexual, monetary, physical freedom, etc). Now would anybody accuse the US of harboring slaves or a slave economy? No. I believe that this where Shinpachi-san is coming from. This was very likely not solely an IJA sponsored consiracy, but was an unfortunate, evil result of greed and moral abuse undertaken by all sides. Does this give the IJA a pass? Not in my eyes. But then again war is the sub-human side of mankind. And the first thing all sides do is dehumanize the other.


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## VBF-13 (May 12, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> I agree. And I wish to jump in here. If someone sends you a PM, it is intended to be a PRIVATE MESSAGE. Posting it in the public forum castrating the PM originator is childish and uncalled for. If you have a problem with the PM content, resolve it PRIVATELY or contact a Moderator.


I agree. In fact I was more outraged at the publishing of the PM than I was at the substance of it. If one can't deal with an immoderate PM, don't unilaterally publish it, bring it up with the moderators.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 12, 2013)

One last (final) time...

The deal is over. Get back on topic.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 12, 2013)

Shinpachi, I think I accidentally deleted your post to Readie. It was not intentional. Please repost it.


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## Shinpachi (May 12, 2013)

tyrodtom said:


> Shinpachi, I remember when I was in Japan in the mid 1960's it was 360 yen to a dollar, or 1 yen was about 1/4 cent. But the also had the sen, which was even less, 50 sen = ?? yen. I could see that the sen was a useless money donomination then, because you couldn't buy anything with 1 sen. ( at that time, you could get a small orange flavored drink with 2 yen), I though the sen might have been left over from their older monetary system, when a yen was worth a lot more.



1yen is 100sen. The unit of sen is still being used when calculating the interest but no actual coins anymore.


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## Matt308 (May 12, 2013)

Your posts are honorable, direct and truthful as you know them. Doesn't mean that others agree, Shinpachi-san. My personal take is that the IJA performed dishonorable acts. However, I do believe that the underlying roots of their actions are NOT demonstrably just IJA perpetrated. The truth is likely much more muddy in origination, purpose and goal.


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## Shinpachi (May 12, 2013)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Shinpachi, I think I accidentally deleted your post to Readie. It was not intentional. Please repost it.



Thanks for your notification, Adler



Readie said:


> Shinpachi,
> I offer you my apologies for my actions.



I hope you not care so much, John, please.
What you said about the Japanese warcrime is just what I learnt at school.
Most of the Japanese people are mindful not to excuse and justify what we did during the war even today.
Our Prime Minister Abe is one of them. I was simply unable to remain indifferent to he was misunderstood.

Waged or unwaged, it is true that those women suffered extraordinary pain beyond our imagination.
My own frank desire is to leave them alone. 

I hesitate to write this as maybe political but, to avoid your misunderstanding, financial aid to them has been being taken place, if my memory is correct, since the end of the 1990s through a private entity from our government indirectly. 
There is a reason why not direct. If anyone may ask, I will answer.

I did not imagine that my posts would be accepted in this thread.
Please let me appreciate you all members great generosity.
Thank you very much.


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## vikingBerserker (May 12, 2013)

It's not generosity my friend, it's respect.


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## Matt308 (May 12, 2013)

Reminds me of the US bending over backwards for indigenous american indians. When will it end.


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## Shinpachi (May 12, 2013)

vikingBerserker said:


> It's not generosity my friend, it's respect.



Thank you very much, vB


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## raumatibeach (May 13, 2013)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I also have not been talking about you.
> 
> Are you the one PMing people telling them to stop "pussyfooting" about it?
> 
> So how about you get on with the conversation.



Not guilty on any counts there, I've never pmed anyone here let alone a moderator.


I'm trying to get on with the conversation but it seems to get lost in all the apologies and explanations.


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## raumatibeach (May 13, 2013)

Shinpachi said:


> This may be unbelievable for you, raumatibeach, but please allow me to state what I saw and felt as it is.
> 
> As long as I watched those ladies who used to be young half a century ago on TV(Korean TV introduced in Japan) a few years ago, they looked being asked to join there by their government. Though I didn't see, a friend of mine pointed out a lady showed her old passbook during the war as an evidence. Their intention would have been to show how low wage it was for her. The passbook was showing 'only' thousands of Yen. Thousands of Yen is equivalent to tens of dollars in today's monetary value but, in the 1940's, it was equivalent to hundreds of thouand dollars today. Modern Koreans may be unfamiliar with such old foreign currency value but she could have known the value well. If it had been her own will to be on TV, she would never have shown the passbook.
> 
> ...




While there may be some debate over the Korean comfort women this wiki article Comfort women - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, it states that many of them were abducted and raped. You may have a point about the Korean women for all I know but that article didn't say your prime minister had been trying to correct the Koreans claims and it's important if we are discussing this that not all of the women -possilby the minority were willing participants.

The original article on this thread also mentions government visits to the Yasukuni Shrine which has memorials to convicted war criminals. I'm sure you can understand people from other countries being unable to fathom how your government could do this, it would be unheard of for a German leader to do the same.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 13, 2013)

raumatibeach said:


> Not guilty on any counts there, I've never pmed anyone here let alone a moderator.
> 
> 
> I'm trying to get on with the conversation but it seems to get lost in all the apologies and explanations.



Then quit apologizing and explaining yourself for stuff you are not doing. That has been my point the whole damn time.

You were never part of the problem. Do you finally understand? 

I am about to close the thread for christs sakes.


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## Shinpachi (May 13, 2013)

raumatibeach said:


> While there may be some debate over the Korean comfort women this wiki article Comfort women - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, it states that many of them were abducted and raped. You may have a point about the Korean women for all I know but that article didn't say your prime minister had been trying to correct the Koreans claims and it's important if we are discussing this that not all of the women -possilby the minority were willing participants.
> 
> The original article on this thread also mentions government visits to the Yasukuni Shrine which has memorials to convicted war criminals. I'm sure you can understand people from other countries being unable to fathom how your government could do this, it would be unheard of for a German leader to do the same.



I am no match for the wiki article at all but glad to know that most of the article were basically writen by the Japanese researchers.
Abe tried to correct and that was the starting point of this thread.
Japanese are often compared with my respectful Germans but we can't be Germans as backgrounds are totally different.
I have never been to the Yasukuni Shrine but even if my father was a scumbag, I would go to his grave.

Thanks.


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## raumatibeach (May 13, 2013)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Then quit apologizing and explaining yourself for stuff you are not doing. That has been my point the whole damn time.
> 
> You were never part of the problem. Do you finally understand?
> 
> I am about to close the thread for christs sakes.




I never said i was part of the problem-you accused me of sending pms. I have never sent a pm to anyone here
i never apologised for anything. I was told to be more respectful some reason.
i never thought I was part of the the problem, I've tried all along to discuss this topic and in between all the other nonsense- the incessant apologies etc -I've learned some things about something I didn't know much about

Shinpachi, if this thread gets shut down I'd like to say that even if I disagree with you its interesting to hear your side of things. I agree that Japan should honour its world war two dead as should Germany or any other country- the 12 convicted war criminals have no place being honoured though.


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## Shinpachi (May 13, 2013)

Abe's grandfather, Nobusuke Kishi, was a class A war criminal though he survived to be Prime Minister in 1956 after all.
Abe is influenced much by his grandfather but not a bad guy.


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## vinnye (May 13, 2013)

I feel that this situation is very hard to see a clear answer to.
I do not think that there are may Japanese who would not recognise that there were serious wrongs in the name of their country. There has been some attempts both directly and indirectly to make reparations. This should be recognised and encouraged. We must be careful not to keep picking over these wounds and allowing them to fester. It is understandable that China and Korea are angered if they see a step back from the previous acknowledgements of guilt. That is natural and to be expected.
However, in order to progress both sides need to be aware of the sensitivities of these issues and not be guilty of "playing politics" to suit their ambitions.

Being British and extremely proud of it, I find it a little annoying to have our Colonnial past and transgressions dragged up at the drop of a hat. I am aware that their is "blood on our hands" historically, but not on my hands or in my name. So I am not going to apologize for it - it is a matter of historical record that everyone needs to accept.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 13, 2013)

raumatibeach said:


> I never said i was part of the problem-you accused me of sending pms. I have never sent a pm to anyone here
> i never apologised for anything. I was told to be more respectful some reason.
> i never thought I was part of the the problem, I've tried all along to discuss this topic and in between all the other nonsense- the incessant apologies etc -I've learned some things about something I didn't know much about
> 
> Shinpachi, if this thread gets shut down I'd like to say that even if I disagree with you its interesting to hear your side of things. I agree that Japan should honour its world war two dead as should Germany or any other country- the 12 convicted war criminals have no place being honoured though.



Oh jesus christ. 

Is English your first language? You were not accused of sending PMs. The whole time I was talking about someone else, not YOU!!!! The only reason I was answering to you is because you kept argueing stuff that had nothing to do with you. Are you the member Readie?

Now one last fibal time...

Stop, get back on discussion, and move on. 

My head is about to explode.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 13, 2013)

vinnye said:


> Being British and extremely proud of it, I find it a little annoying to have our Colonnial past and transgressions dragged up at the drop of a hat. I am aware that their is "blood on our hands" historically, but not on my hands or in my name. So I am not going to apologize for it - it is a matter of historical record that everyone needs to accept.



No different than the modern Japanese, Germans or Americans huh?


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## Marcel (May 13, 2013)

Of course I don't want to imply that revise history is any good, but I believe revisionist history is in every country. Here in the Netherlands for instance you will hardly learn anything about the police actions in Indonesia in 1947 and 1948. All I learned in the history books was that we almost won it, but had to retreat under US pressure. 2 lines in a book, not more. I now learned that some Dutch soldiers did not behave well and attrocities have been done. Not something we will ever read in our history books. I guess it's the same in all countries. Maybe people who are judging the Japanese and Germans so hard about this should realise this first.


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## VBF-13 (May 13, 2013)

Marcel said:


> Of course I don't want to imply that revise history is any good, but I believe revisionist history is in every country. Here in the Netherlands for instance you will hardly learn anything about the police actions in Indonesia in 1947 and 1948. All I learned in the history books was that we almost won it, but had to retreat under US pressure. 2 lines in a book, not more. I now learned that some Dutch soldiers did not behave well and attrocities have been done. Not something we will ever read in our history books. I guess it's the same in all countries. Maybe people who are judging the Japanese and Germans so hard about this should realise this first.


What happened in Nazi Germany, though, was different than what happened, here. That was a genocide and the systematic extermination of "undesirable" classes of people. Here, "War is hell." That's not to minimize it, but to differentiate it.


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## vikingBerserker (May 13, 2013)

But Marcel has a very good point. In school I hardly learned anything about the Philippine Insurrections wars with the US and it was not until years later that I ever learned the truth that sometimes, we were not the good guys.


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## Marcel (May 13, 2013)

VBF-13 said:


> What happened in Nazi Germany, though, was different than what happened, here. That was a genocide and the systematic extermination of "undesirable" classes of people. Here, "War is hell." That's not to minimize it, but to differentiate it.


I don't see difference in any warcrime, these Dutch soldiers also behaved bad, murdered whole villages. And we also don't hear anything about the Dutch being the biggest slave traders. So no, I don't see a big difference.


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## raumatibeach (May 13, 2013)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Oh jesus christ.
> 
> Is English your first language? You were not accused of sending PMs. The whole time I was talking about someone else, not YOU!!!! The only reason I was answering to you is because you kept argueing stuff that had nothing to do with you. Are you the member Readie?
> 
> ...



Okay, your head is about to explode? I'm not Readie and in post 44 you accused me of sending pas. Sheesh 


Shi


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## raumatibeach (May 13, 2013)

Shinpachi said:


> Abe's grandfather, Nobusuke Kishi, was a class A war criminal though he survived to be Prime Minister in 1956 after all.
> Abe is influenced much by his grandfather but not a bad guy.



This is interesting, do you have any links to his crimes you can post?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 13, 2013)

raumatibeach said:


> Okay, your head is about to explode? I'm not Readie and in post 44 you accused me of sending pas. Sheesh
> 
> 
> Shi



Wow!

In post 44, I said I was not talking about you. I asked if you were sending PMs retoricaly, as in you are not the one. It really is obvious you were not accused of anything.

Will someone else please explain this to him...

Go back and actually read the damn post. I am getting tired of this.


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## vinnye (May 13, 2013)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> No different than the modern Japanese, Germans or Americans huh?


 
That's about right, all of our countries have things in their past that we are not proud of, so lets not keep picking at them and try to make a better future for everyone.


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## VBF-13 (May 13, 2013)

Marcel said:


> I don't see difference in any warcrime, these Dutch soldiers also behaved bad, murdered whole villages. And we also don't hear anything about the Dutch being the biggest slave traders. So no, I don't see a big difference.


I don't know what happened, there, Marcel. I should have been clearer. I was differentiating the subject of this thread, not that.


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## VBF-13 (May 13, 2013)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Will someone else please explain this to him...


Raumatibeach, you're driving the guy to a nervous breakdown. He didn't accuse you. Here it is:



DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I also have not been talking about you.
> 
> Are you the one PMing people telling them to stop "pussyfooting" about it?
> 
> So how about you get on with the conversation.


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## Marcel (May 13, 2013)

raumatibeach said:


> This is interesting, do you have any links to his crimes you can post?


he was accused of exploiting forced labour in China when he was in Manchukuo. But he was never tried and walked away freely.


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## raumatibeach (May 13, 2013)

VBF-13 said:


> Raumatibeach, you're driving the guy to a nervous breakdown. He didn't accuse you. Here it is:


 
Yeah, rhetorical like sarcastic sometimes doesn't comes through so well in written form . Cheers for the explanation , if he's ever in nz I'll shout him some beers and Valium .this reminds of trying to have conversation with my ex wife.

Moving right along........


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## evangilder (May 13, 2013)

This thread has decayed into ridiculous. Closing. Some of you need to go out and get some fresh air.


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## Matt308 (May 13, 2013)

Adler, I explained it to him. Apparently like his relationship with his last wife, he doesn't know when to shut up. And it's not Readie. Enjoy your vacation Raumy.


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