# Spitfire Mk XIV E vs Focke Wulf 190



## Oskar the Pilot (Feb 20, 2012)

This is just a quick one. Yes yes, I know you are probably all going to vote for the 'Wulf, but I just can't bare to hear that it beats the Brit Spit 

So, which plane is/was better, the Spitfire mark XIV E or the Focke Wulf 190?


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## drgondog (Feb 20, 2012)

I personally believe the only close match of any FW 190 is the FW-190D series, otherwise in the hands of comparable pilots the FW 190A series is overmatched in general. Perhaps the 190A can outroll the Spit XIV but that is about it as far as basic manueverability. The 190A has heavier standard armament but shouldn't be a factor except during a head on pass.


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## tomo pauk (Feb 20, 2012)

A very specific type of Spitfire vs. any general type of Fw-190? 
The latest/best FWs would be the Ds (D-9 was only produced in quantity), and that one seem to be lacking speed and rate of climb rate. The armament is pretty evenly matched, with Spit's guns having greater muzzle velocity, while FW's are centraly mounted. 
The ultra rare D-12 D-13 were significantly better than D-9, but also appeared maybe a year after Spit XIV was introduced.

Bill covered the Fw-109As.


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## cimmex (Feb 20, 2012)

Pierre Clostermann a former Spitfire pilot who flew the Tempest in 1945 rated the Fw190 D clearly higher than any Spitfire version.
cimmex


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## Juha (Feb 20, 2012)

Anyway, Piere claimed 6 Fw 190As and 4 more damaged while flying Spit IX/IXb. And flew he ever Spit Mk XIV or 190D?

Juha


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## cimmex (Feb 21, 2012)

I don’t know whether Clostermann flew a Spit Mk XIV but in his books he showed a great knowledge about the capabilities of British fighters and he knew the Fw190D very well from fights against in his Tempest. Strange for me that he rated the D-9 even higher than any allied plane including the Mustang except the Tempest.
cimmex


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## Juha (Feb 21, 2012)

Now even I though that Closterman's books were great reads when I read his 3 original books in late 60s early 70s already then I thought that he had added a bit too much "colour" in them and maybe a bit pessimism a la de Saint-Exupéry. I don't recall any great info on capabilities of a/c from them other that he was one of those who didn't like Spit LF Mk V. IMHO his books probably gave a good description how he had felt during the war and later in Algeria but I have always liked more the more the "down the earth", if one can use that kind of metafore on memoirs of pilots, style of JEJ and of the Finnish pilots. But we older Finns are rather dull when compared to French. 190D-9 was very good low- and mid-level fighter, no doubt on that, but it ran out of steam earlier than Spit XIV when altitude increased.

Juha


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## cimmex (Feb 21, 2012)

I think you are right. He had also very optimistic speed numbers at least in the German edition.
cimmex


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## Oskar the Pilot (Feb 21, 2012)

Luftwaffe pilots had the most kills in the war, correct? Most of the highest scoring Luftwaffe pilots flew FW 190s. Oh and, which 190 was around at about the same 
time as the XIV? To make it a fair test, you know. I would like to carry on this research, if the FW 190 is better, it is my favourite plane.


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## FalkeEins (Feb 21, 2012)

Oskar the Pilot said:


> Luftwaffe pilots had the most kills in the war, correct?



yes perhaps, but not as many as is usually claimed for them, including and especially Hartmann

I think it was Tonne who during 1942 in the East went from 19 to 101 vics in 6 months ...his typically exaggerated claims were probably not the result of deliberate falsification, but there was obviously no rigour in the claims process whatsoever (contrary to popular opinion!)


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## spicmart (Feb 21, 2012)

tomo pauk said:


> A very specific type of Spitfire vs. any general type of Fw-190?
> The latest/best FWs would be the Ds (D-9 was only produced in quantity), and that one seem to be lacking speed and rate of climb rate. The armament is pretty evenly matched, with Spit's guns having greater muzzle velocity, while FW's are centraly mounted.
> The ultra rare D-12 D-13 were significantly better than D-9, but also appeared maybe a year after Spit XIV was introduced.



If it is lacking speed and climg rate, so why is it considered an even match for the spit? Eric Brown rated them as even with the Dora having a climb rate of just under 4500 fpm and the operational Spitfire XIV having over 4500 fpm. So there should not be much to choose about.


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## tomo pauk (Feb 21, 2012)

Spit XIV was clocked up to 446 mph @ 26500 ft, and more than 400 mph at 3000 ft (June 44), 425 mph @ 20000 ft, 395 mph @ SL. 
Climb rates from 4700 fpm @ SL, 3700 fpm @ 15000 ft, 3600 @ 22000 ft.
Fw-190D-9 maxes with 702 km/h @ 5,7 km (439 mph @ 18400), 428 mph @ 21300 ft, 383 @ SL. 
RoC is 3580 fpm @ 15500 ft, 2500 @ 18700.

So I'd say that only between 15-20000 ft D-9 is somewhat faster, and having some parity in RoC under 15000 ft. Above 20000 ft, Spit has the edge in speed, and, especially, in RoC.


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## Juha (Feb 21, 2012)

And that 702km/h max for 190D-9 seems to be a number without compressibility correction, with that correction the real max TAS was something like 695km/h when ETC 504 removed and engine gap sealed. But still it was a fast plane with excellent rollrate.

Juha


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## Juha (Feb 21, 2012)

Most of the LW high scorers flew Bf 109s not Fw 190s. The top 190 ace was Otto Kittel, if I remeber his first name correctly, 267 kills, the 4th most successful fighter pilot, KiA mid Feb 45.

Juha

Reactions: Agree Agree:
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## tomo pauk (Feb 21, 2012)

Juha said:


> And that 702km/h max for 190D-9 seems to be a number without compressibility correction, with that correction the real max TAS was something like 695km/h when ETC 504 removed and engine gap sealed. But still it was a fast plane with excellent rollrate.
> 
> Juha



Indeed, Juha, you are right, that figure is without compressibility correction. What to say, always red the fine print 
Roll rate was a great feature of all the 190, in that category they had the edge vs. Spitfires.


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## spicmart (Feb 22, 2012)

Which Spitfire made 395 mph, the one with 25lbs/squareinch and 150 octane fuel? Well that is not fair...
There was a setting for the Dora called "Bodenlader with A-Motor" (is that right?) which boosted its max speed to 640 kph (almost 398 mph) at sea level.
It is said to have made the mysterious 2240 PS engine power possible, I think other people here know the details better.


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## tomo pauk (Feb 22, 2012)

'Bodenlader' means that supercharger is at low gear, 'hohenlader' means that it's at high gear (obviously, that nomenclature cannot be applied to variable-speed superchargers, eg. for most of DB inlines, nor single speed engines a-la V-1710s, nor turboed planes). If you have good data that could confirm the 640 km/h figure for D-9, that would be cool. Even the ultra sleek P-51B, with 150 grade fuel was barely able to cross 400 mph mark at SL, along with Tempest V.

As for what is fair, well, you know what they say about love, war fairness


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## spicmart (Feb 22, 2012)

I'm just wondering how many Spits in operational service had it (25 lbs/in^2 and 150 grade fuel)? 
I cannot confirm the figure you asked for. Maybe someone else here can.


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## Oskar the Pilot (Feb 25, 2012)

Different people say different things. I don't want opinions, I want solid facts. Oh and, I mean the FW 190D-9 "Dora".


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## tomo pauk (Feb 25, 2012)

Not to be nitpicky, but saying in the 1st post what kind of FW would've been nice, and its 'Dora-9', not D-9 'Dora' 
Guess some hard facts are posted.


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## Gaston (Mar 11, 2012)

http://www.wwiiaircraftperform...t-field-fw190d-9.pdf

Memorandum report on FW-190, D-9, AAF number FE-121, 20 May 1946

TSFTE/MLS/rah/26217

Office: TSFTE

Serial number: TSFTE 1988

Subject: Pilot's comments on handling characteristics of FW-190, D9

Quote: "Controls remain effective up to the stall except in the power off condition wherein some difficulty is experienced in applying enough elevator to obtain abrupt stalls"


Quote: "1-The FW-190D-9, although well armored and equipped to carry heavy armament, appears to be much less desirable from a handling standpoint than other models of the FW-190 using the BMW 14 cylinder radial engine."

Any advantage this airplane may have in performance over other models of the FW-190 is more than offset by its poor handling characteristics."

From someone who apparenty knew how to fly the A well enough...
Gaston


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