# III./JG54, Black Friday, 29 Dec 1944...



## lesofprimus (Sep 29, 2009)

Alright guys, trying to get as much info as I can concerning this dreadful day so I can re-create it in my IL2 Music Video format... I have the Green Hearts Dora 9 book by Axel Urbanke as my main ref and it goes into some great detail, atleast on the German side of things....

I havent been too successful getting some of the details sorted out, and I want this vid to be the best Tribute to this horrendous day.... 

I called Erich yesterday on the phone and talked alittle bit about it, but some details are still lost.... Heres what I got so far, a brief summary for those who dont know about one of the worst days of the Luftwaffe.... The main gimmick with this day was the loss of Gruppenkommandeur Hauptmann Robert "Basi" Weiss...

If anyone can give some assistance with some of the details missing, the aviation community and myself in particular would be eternally grateful....

_29 December, 1944... _Taking off from Varrelbusch at 10:15am, the Stabsschwarm led by Hptm Weiss and 11. staffel under Hptm Bottlander (20 aircraft) are directed to 2,000 meters flying South to intercept fighter bombers in the Munster-Rheine area...

At 10:45, enemy aircraft are sighted below them and Weiss calls the bounce... They had run into the midst of a large formation of 20+ Typhoons of 439 Sqd RCAF and 168 Sqd RAF busting up some trains... Very soon, the German formation was broken up by the superior forces of the 2nd TAF..

All over the Vreden/Bentheim/Coesfeld triangle pairs and fours of German fighters were engaged with the Typhoons... First to fall was Yellow 10 of Fw Kreisel of 11. Staffel, shortly followed by 2 members of the Stabsschwarm, Black 3 of Oblt Bellaire and Black 4 of Uffz Rupp... All 3 went down with their machines....

After the initial bounce, Fw Ungar of 11. Staffel got on the tail of a Tiffy over the train tracks and a disabled train, and with alot of deflection shot it down at about 500 meters, crashing with the pilot, either F/L Gibbon (JR 323) or F/O Plant (MN 639), both from 168 Sq (both were listed as lost)... Another successful German pilot, Uffz Rey of 11. Staffel also shot down one of the Typhoons, most likely that of W/O Church from 438 Sq RCAF...

During the same engagement, Spitfires joined the fray... Ofw Philipp of 11. Staffel and Knight Cross recipient with 80 victories, flying Yellow 6, managed to knock down one of the attacking Spitfires before himself being shot down, taking to his parachute near Nordham... The chute "bunned" up, and upon hitting the ground received so many fractures he never returned to combat...

Getting back to Fw Ungar, after knocking down the Typhoon, he spotted 2 D-9s at low level headed North at about 10:50am... Leading the Rotte was Hptm Weiss flying Black 10 with Fw Neersen flying Black 2, the last 2 surviving members of the Stab... Joined by a 4th D-9, that of Oblt Schreiner from 11. Staffel flying Yellow 9, they flew towards the town of Lengerich...

They were then spotted by 10 Spitfires of 331 Norwegian Sq, led by Major Martin, flying at 2000 meters, who had just strafed 2 trains in the Osnabruck area...

Fw Ungar saw 3 aircraft approaching from behind, and at about 200 meters they broke to his right... He immediately identified them as Spitfires... Hptm Weiss, Fw Neersen and Oblt Schreiner pulled around to the right while Ungar flew straight ahead for fear of flying into the guns of the Spits.... He was chased briefly but escaped...

The same cannot be said for the remaining 3....

Oblt Schreiner was the first to fall, wrapped in flames he did not escape, the first victory for F/Sgt Haanes.... The remaining 2 Dora-9's turned into the attackers and joined combat.... Shortly thereafter, Fw Neersen crashed to his death, attempting to crash land his shot up Dora, shot down by 2/Lt Stousland... In the ensuing dogfight at low level, hopelessly outnumbered, Hauptmann Weiss was able to blow the entire tail section off of Capt Readers' Spitfire, coded PT 704, who failed to escape his spinning crate... 

Almost immediately tho, Hptm Weiss' Dora-9 was hit by F/Sgt Haanes and upon entering a steep dive, narrowly missed a farmhouse where Frau Schulte-Uhlenberg stood frozen with fear watching the German plane bearing directly at her.... Weiss was able to pull up before hitting the house and crashed into the woods 400 meters from the farm.... Chalk up victory #2 for Haanes...

Thus ended the life of Hauptmann Robert "Basi" Weiss, holder of the Knights Cross with 121 victories... He was not credited with the victory over Capt Reader, as there was no one left alive to confirm this... 

*This is the part of Black Sunday that I want to re-create.... For the loss of 7 planes and 6 pilots, the members of the Stab and 11. Staffel claimed 4 aircraft destroyed, of which 3 can be confirmed through British sources....*

The day gets worse however for III./JG54, as shortly thereafter, at around 12:00pm, 12. Staffel under Oblt Hans Dortenmann took off with 12 aircraft into the same area with the same orders to engage low flying fighter bombers.... He had however heard what was going on in the area and that enemy fighters were all over the place up to 5,000 meters...

He decided he would ignore his orders and fly his Staffel into the area at 5,500 meters to avoid the inevitable bounce by the RAF.... At 12:45 he sighted 10-15 Spitfire MkIXb's of 401 Sq RAF below in the area of Munster... Dortenmann got the first at 12:50 and 2 were credited to Fw Steinkamp.... The Brits however only lost 1 Spitfire according to their records....

12. Staffel did not escpae without loss however, as Uffz Zessin flying Red 12 who bailed out and Uffz Seibert in Red 7 who crashed to his death could not escape... 

At around 1:00pm, 9. Staffel of JG54, led by Oblt Heilmann, took off with the same orders as the previous units... Knowing that Oblt Dortenmann had refused his orders and now facing a court martial, he led his unit into the area at the prescibed atitude of 2,000 meters South towards the Mittelland Canal... 

After reaching the target area they began circling over the target area, and at 1:30 were bounced out of the sun by Spitfires of 411 Sq RCAF.... 

It was a brutal mistake...

In rapid succession, Uffz Fernau in White 7 died, then Uffz Toepler in White 1... Lt. Prager was able to knock one of the Spitfires down east of Messingen, the only victory for 9. Staffel.... Then, three more Dora-9's went down with their pilots, Uffz Reichardt flying White 11, Uffz Buch flying White 4 and Lt. Bartak flying White 8...

Upon nearing Rheine airfield, Fhr Schmauser, the youngest member of of 9. Staffel at 20 years old, was shot down and killed by F/Lt Cook of 411 Sq at a height of 4,000 meters....

Oblt Heilmanns D-9 also suffered heavy battle damage and belly landed near Munster-Handorf... The loss of 6 pilots and 7 planes meant that almost half of those that took off were killed....

III./JG54's total casualties for the day totaled 13 killed 2 wounded and 15 planes lost.... In the Munster district alone, 29 trains had been shot up, causing 9 killed and 66 wounded... In 2 days of fighting, III./JG54 had lost 20 pilots killed or wounded, a third of its flying personnel...

Black Friday goes down as one of the worst days for the Luftwaffe fighter arm....


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## Erich (Sep 29, 2009)

Dan good run down on the events for the Dora crates of III./JG 54. the outfit was still too fledgling with tasks ordered of it it was not ready for due to in-experience flying the FW.

say do want anything else on the day's activities ?

2600 ops flown by the Allies and only 130 by the LW. JG 6, 27 and 54 lost 17 KIA and 3 missing losing 26 aircraft.

A. Urbanke and J. Manhro will cover all of JG 6 in a future volume which will be a must have

......... 2nd TAF claimed 31 LW craft while losing 11 of their own.


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## vanir (Sep 29, 2009)

I was wondering about the Spitfire types. The 'MkIXb' of 401Sqn RAF I presume were either FB MkIXc or LF MkVb but what about others. Mostly MkIXc and LF Vb or some Griffons in there with the Canadians maybe?


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## lesofprimus (Sep 30, 2009)

Im pretty sure there was no snow on the ground for Dec 29th, as pics from the 28th or 29th show no snow on the ground at Varrelbusch...

Also trying to figure out which crate, Yellow ?, Fw Ungar was flying, cant find anything out about that.... 

Also, like Vanir pointed out, not sure what type of Spits 331 Sq was flying...

Lookin for confirmation on what the codes were for the Typhoons of 168 and 438 Sq were.... Why are there 2 completely different code sets for the two lost from 168 Sq???

I know that the Spits of 331 Sq Norwegian were coded FN but have no idea what the rest of Haanes or Stouslands codes were....

Help............


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## 109ROAMING (Sep 30, 2009)

Great info Dan/Erich , wish I could help a little . Barely knew much about these events til I read Dan's post though

Sounds like some interesting modelling subjects

Hopefully this thread turns up some good info


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## lesofprimus (Sep 30, 2009)

Most of the info is covered Daniel, theres a few gaps here and there that may never be figured out....

I cant even find a single combat report of the RAF side for this engagement.... Very frustrating....


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## Airframes (Sep 30, 2009)

This might help a bit Dan.
The Typhoons of 168 Squadron were coded *QC*
Those of 438 Sqn, RCAF, were coded *F3*
The Sitfires of 331 (Norwegian) Squadron, RAF, were LFIXc, with clipped wings, coded *FN*
Note: It was common for the MkIX Spit to be refered to, in the RAF, as a 'MkIXb', even though it would be a 'C' wing, or even the 'E' wing. This has caused, and will no doubt continue to cause confusion and frustration to reserachers using material written or sourced from veteran Spit pilots!


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## lesofprimus (Sep 30, 2009)

And I was just about to close out IE and jump in bed with my wife, and u post up these delicious tid bits Terry...

Frickin Awesome Brother.............


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## lesofprimus (Sep 30, 2009)

BTW, I actually have dual threads goin for this subject, one here and one in the IL2 Sturmovik Section, where Ill be getting GrauGeists help and input for the details and skins that make these vids the best of the best out there....


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## Airframes (Sep 30, 2009)

Don't know if it'll help, but I've probably got B&W pics of the aircraft from all three of the RAF/RCAF squadrons mentioned.
The Spits from 331 Sqn had the Norwegian national colours, in the form of rings, on their spinners.


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## 109ROAMING (Sep 30, 2009)

Hell yeah Terry , Great stuff mate 

I'd appreciate any photos , as they'd sound serve as a good base for a modelling project . Proberly do 1 or 2 RAF birds from the conflict


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## 109ROAMING (Sep 30, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> BTW, I actually have dual threads goin for this subject, one here and one in the IL2 Sturmovik Section, where Ill be getting GrauGeists help and input for the details and skins that make these vids the best of the best out there....



looking forward to that , downloaded the NF Spitfire one today ( left the computer for it to download ) watched it just before 

top stuff mate 8) as always loved the b/w footage , the 109Fs aswell are screaming to be modelled


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## paradoxguy (Sep 30, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> Alright guys, trying to get as much info as I can concerning this dreadful day so I can re-create it in my IL2 Music Video format... I have the Green Hearts Dora 9 book by Axel Urbanke as my main ref and it goes into some great detail, atleast on the German side of things....
> 
> I havent been too successful getting some of the details sorted out, and I want this vid to be the best Tribute to this horrendous day....
> 
> ...



Les-

The book is not accessible to me at this time, but I recall that Don Caldwell, in his _JG 26 War Diary, Vol 2: 1943-1945_ and _JG 26: Top Guns of the Luftwaffe_, states that Oblt Heilmann's fateful mission occurred before both the tragic mission of Hauptmann Weiss and Oblt Dortenmann, and that it was the fates of the Heilmann and Weiss mission, plus radio transmissions of the combats, that led Dortenmann to disobey orders and lead his unit far above the low-level Allied fighter-bombers to avoid being bounced by Allied fighters. Caldwell also writes that Weiss tried to interview the few returning pilots of Heilmann's flight, but due to their shell-shock, was not able to obtain useful information about the combat situation. In short, Caldwell indicates the chronological order of the three missions were Heilmann, Weiss, and Dortenmann.

I just wanted to point out the information as I recall it from Caldwell's writings. Since I don't have Urbanke's Green Hearts book, I could easily be wrong about the chronological order of the three flights, and I apologize if I am. I eagerly look forward to your upcoming IL-2 video of this fateful day and humbly suggest its import and substance are such that it might warrant more than being a music video.

Thanks,
PG


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## Erich (Sep 30, 2009)

man do I feel like a dumb A

I own a copy of Shores/Thomas volume 2 of the 2nd TAC July 44 to January 45.

there will be docs or at least a listing of whom shot down what.........

give me some time the air op is four pages long with some small pics and a kills listing, probably losses as well.


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## lesofprimus (Oct 1, 2009)

Im pretty sure Heilmann had a belly landing at the last mission before being transferred, but he definatly didnt die before Weiss did, atleast according to Axel's research....

... Lemme find that Dora book.....


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## lesofprimus (Oct 1, 2009)

Got me very curious E...


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## Mike Williams (Oct 1, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> I cant even find a single combat report of the RAF side for this engagement.... Very frustrating....



Hiya - Here's the combat reports for 331 Squadron for 29 December 1944:


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## Glider (Oct 1, 2009)

Mike 
Once again a very interesting posting. Can I ask where would be best place to look for the combat reports iro the Typhoons. I say this as at first glance they did pretty well in an aircraft not known for its dogfighting ability, flown by crews trained for GA not dogfighting and being on the receiving end of the initial bounce.
If you could point me in the right direction it would be appreciated.


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## drgondog (Oct 1, 2009)

Dan - when you said "one of the worst days for the Luftwaffe fighter arm" didn't you mean for III./JG54 specifically?


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## lesofprimus (Oct 1, 2009)

Excellent Mike, THANKS for the reports... Alot of info to digest here......

Haanes report is almost unreadable, but I can figure it out.... Its a hellovalot better than what Ive been able to find so far, and his report is pretty damn important to the scheme of things...

Thanks again Mike...

Interesting is that he says the first and second aircraft destroyed both turned to PORT rather than starboard...

F/Sgt Haanes report pieces:

They were flying on deck level going North... Red 3, 2/Lt Stousland broke down on them immediatly and I followed.. On the way down I passed Red 3 and got on the tail of the Fw 190 in the rear.. He broke to PORT about 200 yards ahead of me... As he broke I fired a short burst and hit him in the port wing... Pieces came off and he crashed on the ground and exploded...

I followed 2/Lt Stousland who was chasing an Fw 190... I saw him hit the Hun in the hood and the 190 crashed a few seconds later...

I followed up the chase and got about 300 yards behind another Fw 190.... He broke to PORT and I followed round... After about 270 degrees turn he climbed to about 600 feet... I got in a long burst and hit him in the wingroot and around the cockpit... He turned his aircraft on its back and bailed out... The aircraft crashed and exploded on the ground... 

A few seconds later one of our aircraft came diving down and overshot the Fw 190... One of the Huns fiired a shot burst and hit the Spitfire in the tail which came off... He spun into the gorund immediatly.. The pilot was probably Capt Reader...

He says Weiss bailed out rather than stay in the plane and crash in the woods.... We know Weiss didnt jump for they found his body near the wreckage...

Also, the fact is that the 2nd guy he shot down (Weiss) was the guy who shot off Readers tail section....

I read all the reports and it really gives this the realism we need.... Do we have any reports from the Typhoons from 168 Sq Mike???

I can make this work pretty damn good....


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## lesofprimus (Oct 1, 2009)

Yea Bill... They lost alot of guys this day... Not sure what GRuppe took the worst mauling in a single day of Ops for the Luftwaffe, but theres some doozies...


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## lesofprimus (Oct 1, 2009)

Also noted that the first 2 reports are the ones that will really matter, due to the time at which these combats happened.... Weiss (Stab./JG54) went down around 11am, Ungars' (11./JG54) victory was at 10:50 as was Uffz Reys' Typhoon claim...

Dortenmanns (12./JG54) claim was approx. at 12:50pm, nowhere near the 1420 hrs the Norwegians have on their reports....

Lt Pragers (9./JG54) claim at 1:37pm of a Spitfire also doesnt match up with the time....

But damn having Haanes report is the icing on the cake...


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## drgondog (Oct 1, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> Yea Bill... They lost alot of guys this day... Not sure what GRuppe took the worst mauling in a single day of Ops for the Luftwaffe, but theres some doozies...



I suspect that JG 301 on 26 Nov and JG 300 on 14 Jan, 1945 would be a good place to look for a really bad day at the Gruppe level


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## lesofprimus (Oct 1, 2009)

Yea, I got the JG300/301 book and man, some really sobering days there Brother...


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## Mike Williams (Oct 1, 2009)

Hi David:



Glider said:


> Mike
> Once again a very interesting posting. Can I ask where would be best place to look for the combat reports iro the Typhoons. I say this as at first glance they did pretty well in an aircraft not known for its dogfighting ability, flown by crews trained for GA not dogfighting and being on the receiving end of the initial bounce.
> If you could point me in the right direction it would be appreciated.



Generally speaking these reports are on microfilm at Air 50 in the PRO/NA. No. 168 can be found at Air 50/70 and No. 439 at Air 50/150.


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## Mike Williams (Oct 1, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> Excellent Mike, THANKS for the reports... Alot of info to digest here......
> 
> Haanes report is almost unreadable, but I can figure it out.... Its a hellovalot better than what Ive been able to find so far, and his report is pretty damn important to the scheme of things...



Hello lesofprimus:

I'm glad you found those reports interesting and of use. I agree the Haanes report is most applicable to your needs. Let me know if you have any trouble reading any portion of these reports. My copies might be a little clearer and I'm used to deciphering these old documents.


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## Airframes (Oct 1, 2009)

Some great info there guys.
One thing to watch out for Dan - times. The Luftwaffe worked on a different time system which, IIRC, was one hour ahead of the actual time. For example, if it was 13.00hrs in England, with the time-zone shift it would be 14.00hrs in France/Germany but, by the German time system, it would actually be 15.00hrs. Can get quite confusing at times! And, of course, this also changed, as we do, with the summer to winter time changes, i.e., back an hour form late October.


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## lesofprimus (Oct 1, 2009)

Thanks to both of u for the info... I think we can exclude the 109 combats that happened after the Weiss shootdown... 

Otherwise Id be making a 10 minute video....

Now if we can find some pics of the aircraft in question to solidify the camo patterns and number patterns for the planes involved we can start getting the skins put together....


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## Airframes (Oct 2, 2009)

Do you want the pics of the Typhoons and Spits Dan? I'll look through my stuff to see if I have anything on the Luftwaffe aircraft involved.


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## lesofprimus (Oct 2, 2009)

If we can get pics of all aircraft involved, the accuracy will be tip top.... Trying to nail down the camo jobs on the Typhoons, Spits and Dora-9's...


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## Airframes (Oct 2, 2009)

OK Dan, I'll dig out what I have on the Typhoons and Spits, and scan them and post. The cammo schemes were 'standard' on both types, although the Norwegian Spits had the 'srtiped' spinners. Leave it with me, might take a day or so though!


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## tomo pauk (Oct 2, 2009)

Great thread, folks. It's really hard to beleve that even after 60+ years we have a lot of researdch to do 

On the tactical technical quirks:
Designer manufactured does his best to create a top bird. Then a pilots are trained to use the bird, and do manage to survive many encounters, making them battle hardened. 

And then a stupid mistake on the part of air controller (that's how i get it happened) serves the pilot plane to the enemy. Suddenly all those MW-50, supercharging, deflection shooting mastery dissapears in seconds because someone else $crewed up


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## B-17engineer (Oct 2, 2009)

Google Image Result for http://www.jg54greenhearts.com/Weiss_190D-9_StabIIIJG54_Varrelbusch_Germany_29Dec44.gif

This is a Dora-9 from December 29th, 1944. 

I see what else I can find...


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## Erich (Oct 2, 2009)

use Eagles Dora book III./JG 54/JG 26


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## paradoxguy (Oct 2, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> "Like my father before me, I will work the land,And like my brother above me, who took a rebel stand.He was just eighteen, proud and brave, But a Yankee laid him in his grave,And I swear by the mud below my feet,You can't raise a Caine back up when he's in defeat."



I noticed the quote from "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" and I had to say I'm glad to see another fan of the Band here. Sorry for the interruption and back to our regular program...


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## B-17engineer (Oct 2, 2009)

paradoxguy said:


> I noticed the quote from "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" and I had to say I'm glad to see another fan of the Band here. Sorry for the interruption and back to our regular program...



Love that song. 

Anyways 8) I'll look for more stuff...


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## stona (Oct 12, 2009)

Airframes said:


> This might help a bit Dan.
> Note: It was common for the MkIX Spit to be refered to, in the RAF, as a 'MkIXb', even though it would be a 'C' wing, or even the 'E' wing. This has caused, and will no doubt continue to cause confusion and frustration to reserachers using material written or sourced from veteran Spit pilots!



How very true Sir, the RAF was amazingly haphazard in its use of nomenclature, not just for Spitfires!!!
Steve


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## GrauGeist (Nov 11, 2009)

Airframes said:


> OK Dan, I'll dig out what I have on the Typhoons and Spits, and scan them and post. The cammo schemes were 'standard' on both types, although the Norwegian Spits had the 'srtiped' spinners. Leave it with me, might take a day or so though!


Hey Terry,

Have you had any luck finding your Spit/Tiffy camo scheme images?


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## Airframes (Nov 12, 2009)

Ah! Sh** ! Sorry, forgot! This post seemed tp drop of the screen - out of sight out of mind! I'll get onto it and post something asap!


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## Erich (Nov 12, 2009)

you guys have access to a copy of Shores/Thomas 2nd TAC, volume 2 ? the camo is there albeit a bit on the dark side I think


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## GrauGeist (Nov 12, 2009)

Erich said:


> you guys have access to a copy of Shores/Thomas 2nd TAC, volume 2 ? the camo is there albeit a bit on the dark side I think


Unfortunately, I don't


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## lesofprimus (Nov 12, 2009)

Seems like I got my computer issues fixed enough to the point that I can play IL2 again....

I already started the airfield... Its amazingly difficult to taxi through the trees like they did from dispersals....


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## GrauGeist (Nov 12, 2009)

Glad you got your machine squared away...computer issues suck...

Yeah, I agree about the trees (and ther objects) and trying to manouver around them ingame. I've barely touched camo netting when taxiing off the ramp and lit-off my crate in the past...

I hate that!


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2009)

Alright, hopin u can dig up some info on the British camo Terry.... Ive been working up a few of the mission phases, and its time to get some skin work done by GrauGeist....

Dave, are u with me???


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## Milosh (Nov 21, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> If we can get pics of all aircraft involved, the accuracy will be tip top.... Trying to nail down the camo jobs on the Typhoons, Spits and Dora-9's...



Wouldn't the camo of the RAF fighters be the standard RAF camo pattern? Or, are you looking for the individual squadron markings?


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2009)

I would assume so, but some ref shots that show the weathering that these specific crates had, so we can model the skins accuratly...

Any pics posted here would be of great assistance...


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## lesofprimus (Nov 21, 2009)

This is about as good as we're gonna get for Weiss and his Black 10...


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## GrauGeist (Nov 22, 2009)

I'm with ya' man...

Having a hellova time digging up info on the Allied crates, the radio codes are impossible to find.

I'm hoping Terry has some luck finding his info.

And yes, any photographs would be golden


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## lesofprimus (Nov 22, 2009)

Cool Dave... I pm'd ya with the skins required... Just about time to move it into the IL2 Lounge....

Heres a map I worked up, real basic and cheesy, based on the victory and loss records available.....


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## lesofprimus (Nov 22, 2009)

OK, skin info for the Brits/Norweigans: IMPORTANT ONES
spit Haanes flew FN H
spit Stousland flew FN S
spit Reader flew FN R
Spit lost to Philipp FN Z
Spit shoots down Philipp FN P
typh Church flew F3 C
typh Gibbon flew QC G
BASIC:
Typh kills Kreisel QC K
Typh kills Bellaire F3 B
Typh kills Rupp QC R
Typh F3 K,Q
Typh QC F,T,W 
Spit FN A,M,Q

German side: IMPORTANT ONES
Weiss Black 10
Neersen Black 2
Bellaire Black 3
Rupp Black 4
Ungar Yellow 1
Philipp Yellow 6
Rey Yellow 8
Schreiner Yellow 9
Kreisel Yellow 10
BASIC:
Y 2,3,7

The only pilot skins I think we need are Weiss, Philipp, Haanes and Ungar.....

Ive been tryin to find some pics and so far a big fat zero.....

Thanks again for all ur help, and Merv in advance.....


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## GrauGeist (Nov 22, 2009)

Alright...this helps in a huge way! Thanks!

I'll keep checking here for any photos or additional info Terry, Erich or anyone else might be able to help with.

Otherwise, I'll be working with the duplicate thread in the IL-2 Sturmovik Pilot's lounge.

These historical IL-2 vids are kickass!


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## Airframes (Nov 22, 2009)

I've found some black and white profiles for the Typhoons, and I think a B&W pic. (Got to confirm it's the right period).
Just looking for the Norwegian Spit pics now. The Spits I know looked fairly clean, apart from the usual dirt that would only be seen close up. The colour schemes on both types were the standard Dark Green, Ocean Grey disruptive uppers, with Medium Sea Grey undersurfaces. Squadron codes were Sky, and serials 8 inch black letter/numbers.
I'll try to get some stuff posted later today, probably around 10am Eastern US time.
Do you need a drawing/plan of the pattern for the upper surface camouflage ?


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## lesofprimus (Nov 22, 2009)

For arguments sake, yes Terry... Also, Im still trying to verify some of the plane assignments...

As far as the RAF birds go, the only actually confirmed number is Haanes *FN H*.... Need Reader, Stousland, Church and Gibbons' letters...

For the German side, still need Ungar and Reys' Yellow numbers...

BTW David, here are the werknum for the crates lost:
Weiss B10 210060
Bellaire B3 210016
Neersen B2 210057
Rupp B4 210055
Schreiner Y9 21028
Philipp Y6 210014
Kreisel Y10 210076


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## Airframes (Nov 22, 2009)

A bit later than anticipated, but here's a couple of things to be going on with. Note that the pic showing the 439 Sqn Typhoon may have been taken in early 1945, as the Sky tail band has been painted out. Also, the pic of the 331 sqn Spit is possibly immediate post-war, when the Squadron were at Gardermoen and a detachment at Stavanger. Note the lack of cannons and the cockpit canopy removed. Possibly just out after a deep service? However, the camouflage scheme is the same, and note the colours of the Norwegian flag on the spinner.
I'm sure I've got some more pics somewhere, and I'll post a colour plan of the camouflage patterns when I dig out (or draw) a good one. BTW, the FW190D-9 I did for the Reich Defence GB was from III/JG54, attached to JG26 for Bodenplatte, and the colour scheme is bang on, or as bang on as can be going off all the research info and pics of the original. Might help?


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## lesofprimus (Nov 22, 2009)

Hot sh!t Terry, just what we need..... Heres a shot of Terrys Build Dave:


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## lesofprimus (Nov 22, 2009)

Notice the difference of the camo colors from Weiss' B10 to Nibels B12.... Stab colors vs 10. Staffel...


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## rochie (Nov 22, 2009)

i'll have a look through the couple of typhoon books i have and post anything of relavence


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## B-17engineer (Nov 22, 2009)

Yep with Rochie here. When soccer is over I'll have a look too.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 22, 2009)

Thanks guys....

Been trying to get the game AI to cooperate withthe mission clips.... Pain in the ass, trial and error BS....

Gettin it done tho...


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## B-17engineer (Nov 22, 2009)

Did someone say TYPHOON?  

I hope they help..


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## B-17engineer (Nov 22, 2009)

Dan, is there anything else you may need? BTW see the last post of the Page before this. I posted some Typhoon stuff.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 22, 2009)

Also, Dan, I found this of a Dora. It says Dec. 1944 so it may help or it may not.


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## Airframes (Nov 22, 2009)

I can't say it's definitely wrong, but the model of Black 10 looks a bit bright, especially considering the fuselage cammo pattern, at the rear, is similar to Nibel's machine. My model was based on an apparently reliable profile, the crash report of Nibel's Dora, and my own analysis of the photographs of it. Just a thought.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 22, 2009)

Yea. It said D-9 and December so I was like hmmmmm..

But the Typhoon stuff on the other page I posted, is that right?


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## GrauGeist (Nov 22, 2009)

Was that Typhoon's camo based on early Ops, or would the camo have remained the same through Dec44?

Good deal on the color shots of the D-9, those'll come in very handy.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 22, 2009)

GrauGeist said:


> Was that Typhoon's camo based on early Ops, or would the camo have remained the same through Dec44?
> 
> Good deal on the color shots of the D-9, those'll come in very handy.



I think it was the same. Because on the Color profiles on the previous page it doesn't show any new camo schemes. Do those help?


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## GrauGeist (Nov 22, 2009)

They should be a big help...the B&W shot with them lined up actually helps show the camo pattern across the wingtop.

Now the 64,000 dollar question: Did they still have invasion strips in place at that point in time?


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## B-17engineer (Nov 22, 2009)

I don't think so, but I have to read more.


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## Airframes (Nov 22, 2009)

Dave, the Typhoon colour scheme and pattern remained the same, although when first introduced, they had narrow black and white identification stripes below the wings, to avoid confusion with the FW190A, and, for a time, a chord-wise yellow band on the upper wings. These were long gone by December '44.
Most aircraft had the over and under wing 'Invasion' stripes removed or overpainted by about late September 1944, although some still carried the 'full set' up to the end of the war. Generally, the fuselage bands were removed/overpainted, leaving the underside fuselage stripes only, as in the profile I posted. However, some aircraft also had these removed by late '44, or never had them if new/replacement aircraft. Those aircraft in 2 TAF had black spinners and, by late '44 / early '45, the Sky tailband was normally overpainted too. 
In general, the Typhoons tended to look a bit scruffy, as they had spent virtually six months hopping about the Continent, in constant action of one sort or another. This is evident in most pics, but doesn't mean that any renderings should look battered and tatty - mostly the dirt, wear and tear was only visible close-up.
There were also other differences which can often only be ascertained by the serial number. The three blade prop was replaced by a four blade unit, but three blades were still around, later Typhoons had the enlarged Tempest tailplane (horizontal stabiliser you ex-Colonials call it!), but these were also often retro-fitted to earlier Mk1B's and so on!! 
Quite often, the only way to be absolutely certain of how a particular machine looked at any one time is to have a pic of it at that time!
I'm getting some stuff together, including the three view of the cammo pattern and colours for both the Typhoon and the Spit IX for that period, plus details such as the stencil data and placement, scale plans etc. for the Typhoon. If you can leave it with me a few days, I'll have it all in one heap. It would be better and more convenient to e-mail it to you both, if that's OK?
Are there any specific detail information you need for both types? For example, interior colours, gunsight type, etc.
If so, let me know and I'll include it all. I'm also going to see if I can capture some relevant 'stills' from some footage I have of Typhoons, which won't neccessarily be from the Squadrons concerned, but could be useful for detail, 'atmosphere', attack angles etc.
Anyway, that's where I'm up to so far, and now I'm off to bed, as I'm b*ll*xed!!


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## GrauGeist (Nov 22, 2009)

Thanks a million, Terry...that's some huge info there, and your help is most appreciated!

As far as internal components, we unfortunately won't be able to use them, as the sim doesn't offer the ability to adjust paint colors or add/delete equipment. Still handy info for anyone wishing to detail the 'pit of thier Typhoon model project.

Take your time gathering up the info, there's still other work to be done in the mean time!


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## lesofprimus (Nov 22, 2009)

And remember, the game only has the Tempest not the Tiffy.... And the Spits will be the LFIXc (CW)...

Doras are 1944 Doras as well....


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## B-17engineer (Nov 22, 2009)

I can't wait for this. I hope some of this helps


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## GrauGeist (Nov 22, 2009)

Yeah, I still don't understand why there wasn't a Typhoon in the series, since it was active throughout the ETO from '41 onwards.

The Tempest skin will work for the Typhoon, I don't think it'll be an issue since they look extremely close.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 22, 2009)

I agree....


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## beaupower32 (Nov 23, 2009)

I posted this in your other thread, but here it is again. just copy and past the skin into your skin folder and it should work.


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## Airframes (Nov 23, 2009)

OK Dave and Dan, I'll include some stuff on the Tempest as well. Just found some more pics of the Norwegian Spits, taken at Duerne in December 1944, and they then had black spinners. I suspect the national colours on the spinners were 1945 and post war, but I'll verify and confirm this later.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 23, 2009)

Oh the Tempest too. I'll look some more than also.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 23, 2009)

No guys, dont need any Tempest info... The game doesnt have the Typhoon, so they make skins for the Tempest that make it look like the Tiffy...

Already got that skin Beau, but the skins GrauGeist and Ontos make will blow that one away....

U seen my other historical vids havent u???


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## Airframes (Nov 23, 2009)

OK, no Tempest stuff!
I've found some more on the 331 (Norwegian) Squadron Spits. It would appear that the National colours on the Sky spinner, along with the same, as a 'flash' on the rudder, were adopted in April 1945, on the new MkIXE's, so it'll be a black spinner for your renditions, as per 2 TAF aircraft. I'll include some colour stuff in one form or another on the Spits when I get the 'package' together.
You might want to have a look at the following web-site, which has some stuff that should be useful regarding the 439 Squadron Typhoons:- http://rcaf.com/439sqaudron/Toocon_e.htm
Parts of the site are a little cumbersome, but there are some useful photos, and aircraft listings. If you go to the bottom of the page, to the section entitled 'This day in history', you'll find a short account of actions etc on the day, plus a listing of the Typhoon serial numbers, with the individual code letter where known, and the relevant pilot.
There is a rather good colour shot of a painting of one of the Typhoons, showing the Squadron code in 'Dull Red', with the individula letter in 'Sky'. Whilst this might be right for that particular aircraft, all the pics seen to date appear to have the full code in 'Sky'. The pic I posted showing this Squadron's Typhoon taking off was, as I thought, taken in early 1945, April I think, so the 'Sky' tailband would stilll have been present in December.
Hope this helps a bit, and I'll get the rest together soon as I can.


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## beaupower32 (Nov 23, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> No guys, dont need any Tempest info... The game doesnt have the Typhoon, so they make skins for the Tempest that make it look like the Tiffy...
> 
> Already got that skin Beau, but the skins GrauGeist and Ontos make will blow that one away....
> 
> U seen my other historical vids havent u???



Yep, ive seen them. Great videos too. I didnt know if you had that skin yet or not, but figured it was worth a shot.


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## Crimea_River (Nov 23, 2009)

Guys, this is from Green Hearts by Urbanke. No date of the photo is given but maybe it helps.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 24, 2009)

The very same book Im using as the main research for this video..... Thanks for the scan....

Do u think u can scan the profile of Yellow 4 of Werner Merz for GrauGeist to get a solid look at the camo for the Fall of 44 in there???


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## lesofprimus (Nov 24, 2009)

Just realized u didnt scan but took a pic of the page lol, nevermind....


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## B-17engineer (Nov 24, 2009)

Best I can do because I am on my way out the door...


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## Crimea_River (Nov 24, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> Do u think u can scan the profile of Yellow 4 of Werner Merz for GrauGeist to get a solid look at the camo for the Fall of 44 in there???



Will take a picture tonight when I'm home. The profiles are fold-out pages so don't scan easily with the machine I have.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 24, 2009)

Im gonna try and take some pics this evening and see how they come out... Wait till I try before u get into scanning....


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## lesofprimus (Nov 24, 2009)

OK here are the pics I shot from the book, came out pretty decent.....

Dave, we're gonna have to get Merv to work on the Spit code letters, looks like his are too small.....


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## Erich (Nov 24, 2009)

you better hurry the heck up bud as I am puttin in for the December 5, 1944 op real soon under your belt. plenty of tasty stuff between Jg 301 and JG 1 against many US Mustang groups, colorful 356th fg was involved with JG 301.......oh what the heck that can be saved for the following winter display.


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## ontos (Nov 24, 2009)

Hey Dan found this while searching for the colors and camo for the Spitfires, this was taken in 1944 of Stousland and his Spit. The Norwegian markings show on the spinner. I wasn't sure of the colors for the aircraft, thanks Airframe for the very helpful information. I did find some radio call letters for the Norwegian Spits, but not all. 

Cheers,ontos


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## GrauGeist (Nov 24, 2009)

Excellent find on Stousland's crate...I would have never noticed the "S" unless it was pointed out!

I hope you can get a little time to post your progress on the Spit's skin in the IL-2 Lounge's "Black Friday" thread, you're doing a heck of a job!


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## ontos (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks Dave, I noticed the "S" when I found the photo, I'll put it on the skin. I have seen quite a few of the Spitfire pilots put letters under the nose of their aircraft. As soon as I get the camo on, I'll download some screenies.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 24, 2009)

Sounds great, and thanks for ur help on the British side Merv......

Great find on the spinner and code numbers as well.... The listing I made for skins required was just a amtter of putting the last letter for their last name....

Erich, yes Im gettin geared up for another JG301 video, been readin Willi's book again in the sh!tter lol....


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## ontos (Nov 25, 2009)

OK, this is what I have so far on the Spitfire flown by Lt. Stousland. Still a lot of work to be done, weathering, internals etc. Please look it over and let me know of any errors or corrections to be made. I'm available for e-mail or pm.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 25, 2009)

Hey Merv, I think the spiral on the spinner is too far forward....

Otherwise, it looks phenominal... The panel lines and roundels look tits....


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## Airframes (Nov 25, 2009)

Looks great, but note the following.
1) The spinners had lost the Norwegian colours and 'Sky' base colour during the period concerned. They were then black overall.
2) The fuselage roundel shown is the early war period 'C' type roundel. It should be the 'C1' type, with a narrow yellow outer band, and the red centre circle should be the enlarged one, making the white ring look narrow.
3) As the Squadron was part of 2 TAF, by this period the 'Sky' tailbands were being overpainted in camouflage colours. This meant that the serial numbers were moved forward, virtually touching the individual code letter, and in smaller black characters than the official 8 inch high version. I need to verify if the 'Sky' bands had gone on the date in question.
4) It was common practice in some squadrons to repeat the individual code letter under the nose, in order to aid identification to ground crew when the aircraft was taxiing. AFAIK, the squadron's Spits all had the code letter repeated.
5) I think the yellow, wing leading edge I.D. stripe was retained, although it was removed on some 2 TAF aircraft - I'll check and confirm.


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## ontos (Nov 25, 2009)

Thanks for the great information Airframes, this helps allot. I have about 15 different pictures of the Norwegian Spits. and they all seem to be different. At least I wont have to work on the spinner bands, that is a bear. I'll make the new roundels and put them on and the rest of the corrections.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 25, 2009)

That skin is really looking sharp, man!!

Good info, Terry...it's interesting to see how many changes to A/C ID occurred in such short time spans towards the end of the war (on both sides)!


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## Airframes (Nov 25, 2009)

The major changes were mainly in 2 TAF Dave, and the roundel change was late 1941, remaining the same until the end of the war. The upper wing roundels were changed to 'C1' on all aircraft late January 45, so that's not relevant, but some squadrons used a different style and colour for the individual code letter, and sometimes the squadron codes as well. AFAIK, this doesn't affect the units concerned for the date in question but I'm in the process of double-checking everything.
I should have the full package together in the next two or three days. Did you or Dan look at the link I gave for the RCAF Typhoons? The serial and code listing against the pilot's names might be useful.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 25, 2009)

I haven't had a chance to check out the link yet, but I will!

My thoughts regarding the changes to markings/insignia, both overall down to squad level, are on a whole...such as the USAAF national insignia changes and similiar...stuff like unit recognitions (yellow band here, white stripe there...red spinner for a half a year, etc)...it's mind boggling sometimes! 

Thanks a million for your help on these projects, Terry!


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## lesofprimus (Nov 26, 2009)

Heres the Tiffy painting Terry was talking about.....






It seems the the code letters for the 439th are 5V, not F3.....

Heres the site code listings...
The 439 Aircraft Registry Page 7 - Typhoons Mk 1B


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## lesofprimus (Nov 26, 2009)

The 439th only loses 1 plane in this video, that of W/O Church, who was shot down by Ufz Rey.... Havent been able to find any code or serial info for his crate.....


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## lesofprimus (Nov 26, 2009)

Found the code for Churchs' crate:

MN791

And a diary log from the mission.... Anyone else agree that they had rockets and NO bombs???

MN791 Shot down south of Coesfeld by a FW-190 on the 29 Dec 1944. Blue 3 - (F/O Laurence) having knocked out two already and to the north he saw a FW 190 and a Typhoon (Blue 4, R87186 W/O 1 Church, S.A.) dog fighting and then the Typhoon spun into earth and burst into flames. WO Church managed to bail out and was captured, finishing the remainder of the war as a POW.

W/O S.A. Church
Armed Recce 09:55 10:55 
Details of Sortie or Flight

Our battle area over AACHEN BEING CLOSED IN, THE SQUADRON took off with no bombs to return to their old hunting ground in COSEFELD, Germany area. On arriving there they found a large layer of mist over the southern sector of the area commencing about 10 miles south of COESFELD. Red Flight found a train just south of COESFELD and made an attack on it but were met by a hail of light and heavy flak, and Red 1 (F/O Sweeney) received a hit in the starboard wing aleron so that he returned to base with his flight, his aircraft was Cat AC.

Blue Flight went further north and ran into a nest of trains, they split into pairs and carried out separate attacks. Blue 1 (S/L Crosby) accounted for five locomotives. he came up to look around for more, Blue 3 - (F/O Laurence) having knocked out two already and to the north he saw a FW 190 and a Typhoon dog fighting and then the Typhoon spun into earth and burst into flames. He gave chase to the 190 and was closing in on it when bounced by 10 FW190's and ME109's. He called a break with the Huns already firing. Both he and his number two had about five on their tails. With such a disadvantage it was useless to fight it out so F/O Laurence dove for the deck. After a chase for ten miles or so, there was only one long nosed FW190 on his tail but he was extremely persistent, so F/O Laurence commenced some very tight steep turns on the deck hoping that the 190 couldn't stay with him. It kept right with him but suddenly flicked and crashed into the ground bursting into flames. 

Just after this he was bounced by a ME109 he hadn't seen, but no trouble and out turned it with 20 degree flap and was about to shoot it down when it too rolled over completely and crashed into the ground blowing up. Blue 4 (W/O Church) did not return and it was presumed that he was shot down .

CLAIMS: 1 FW190 destroyed, 1 ME109 destroyed, 7 locomotives damaged, 4 goods trucks damaged.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 26, 2009)

One of the things Im having issues with is the report that Philipp shot down a Spitfire before being shot down himself....

I cant find any info regarding Spits lost in the area... Could it be he was mistaken and it was the other lost plane from 168 Sq, F/O Plant???


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## lesofprimus (Nov 26, 2009)

Another shot of a 168th Sq RAF Tiffy......


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## lesofprimus (Nov 26, 2009)

Found some wierd and differing information concerning this mission...... 

I trust Axel's interpetation of the days events in his Dora-9 book, but this info opens another door of possibilities....
Heres the site:
Italeri 1/48 Fw-190D-9

December 29 was "der schwartz Tag" for III/JG54. The orders called for a mission by successive staffeln against British fighter-bombers in the area of Osnabrueck, Muenster and Rheine, at a specified altitude of 6,000 feet. The mission was madness, considering the superiority of the RAF. Contrary to standard practice, Weiss as the mission commander was not allowed input in the planning; he could have refused these orders and tried to get them revised to allow for a Gruppe-strength patrol at 25,000 feet, which would have given them a chance. For unknown reasons, he accepted the mission as ordered.

Weiss led his stabschwarm and the twelve fighters of 11.JG54 from Varrelbusch at 1000, following the decimation of 9.JG54 twenty minutes earlier by Spitfires from 411 Squadron, which shot down 6 of the 12 German fighters. At 1045, Weiss' formation made contact with Typhoons of 439 Squadron, RCAF, and attacked. They were in turn hit by Tempests of 56 Squadron. Following the initial encounter, the Germans broke into schwaerme. The formation Weiss was leading was then hit by 56 Squadron Tempests and Spitfire XIVs of 41 Squadron. In the entire fight, the Tempests and Spitfires shot down a total of seven pilots from the Stab and 11.JG54, including Hauptmann Weiss. Overall, on December 29, III/JG54 lost fourteen pilots killed and seventeen aircraft, from a total establishment of 36. In the opinion of the group's survivors, the unit never fully recovered from the loss of the popular and well-respected Weiss, a Knight's Cross recipient with 121 victories at the time of his death.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 26, 2009)

Profile and model of Weiss' Black 10....

Did all the Stab have yellow rudders Erich????


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## Airframes (Nov 26, 2009)

Regarding 439 Squadron armament fit; according to all the info I've seen, their Typhoons were equipped for bombs,_ not _rockets. Photos bear this out. Even though that colour shot of the painting shows red codes, all photo evidence for the period shows 'Sky' codes. I've now got more info, including colour profiles and a colour 4-view for the camouflage pattern and colours, and I should have the lot to you by the weekend.
I can also now confirm that the Spitfires retained the yellow wing leading edge I.D. stripes, and that the 'Sky' fuselage bands were still in place.
The fuselage bands, and the remains of any 'D-Day' stripes, were removed following the order of January 3rd 1945, and at the same time the upper wing roundels started to change, although some squadrons didn't complete the changes until late January or early February.
So the Spit skin is OK as it stands, apart from needing a black spinner, the yellow stripes, and slightly larger code letters. The letters were 36 inches tall. This will all be clarified and noted in the bumpf I send.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 26, 2009)

Great info Terry, thanks....


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## GrauGeist (Nov 26, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> Found some wierd and differing information concerning this mission......
> 
> I trust Axel's interpetation of the days events in his Dora-9 book, but this info opens another door of possibilities....
> Heres the site:
> ...



Wow...ok, so this is interesting...Tempests in the area?

I wonder what they were using for a source?


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## ontos (Nov 26, 2009)

What was the interior primer color on the Mk. IX, and the actual color of the landing flaps, and wheel wells.


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## rochie (Nov 27, 2009)

here's 5V X, wondering if 5V S looked similar


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## lesofprimus (Nov 27, 2009)

Terry, part of one of the combat reports that Mike Williams posted up says that a few of the Typhoon pilots from 168th Sq shot off their rockets to engage the Germans when they got bounced.... Didnt say anything about jettisoning bombs....

Then this report where they said they took off without bombs and did great damage in ground attack... Gotta be rocket work... Ur thoughts???

Great pic Karl, definatly what we needed....

Dave, dont know how much validity I put in that "alternate" version, no idea who came up with it, but the true facts dont support it....

As well as figuring out what the planes looked like guys, I also need to keep figuring out how the battle transpired.... I really want to show Philipp and Rey getting their kills and the sunsequent shootdown of Philipp.... 

As it stands now, Im going to change the facts and make it a Typhoon from 168th Sq flown by F/O Plant that Philipp shoots down, as there seems to be no evidence that there were Spitfires in the Nordhorn area at 1100, nor any losses confirmed.... Therefore, his shootdown will also be by a Tiffy, not sure who gets the kill yet, still have to research British victory claims...

Any help on that front???


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## rochie (Nov 27, 2009)

2nd TAF claims for 29 Dec.
i've noticed in a couple of accounts pilots claimed 109's instead of 190's because of the dora's long nose


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## lesofprimus (Nov 27, 2009)

Frickin awesome Karl, u found what I spent 1.5 hours lookin for...

Excellent....


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## GrauGeist (Nov 27, 2009)

Kewl info, Karl!

Is it possible that there were '109s operating in the area? There is a pretty distinct difference between the Dora and a '109


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## rochie (Nov 27, 2009)

no probs mate, its from 2nd TAF vol 2 it has a couple of pages about 29 dec i'll try and copy the text into here.

Dave from the what i've read in a couple of books it is assumed that having not seen Dora's before the pilots thought that the long noses were 109's


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## rochie (Nov 27, 2009)

ok here's the write up from [aviation] - [Classic] - 2nd Tactical Air Force - Volume 2

but it doesnt mean that no 109's were in the area, wonder if any were lost at the time


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## rochie (Nov 27, 2009)

posted this in the other thread also.
Weiss's mugshot


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## GrauGeist (Nov 27, 2009)

I suppose it is entirely possible! There were a number of cases where the P-47 and the Fw190A were mistaken for each other...

I saw Weiss' photo in the other thread, thanks for posting that, I think we can make that work for the pilot's skin

Good post on the action's write-up, too!

Thanks for your help!


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## rochie (Nov 27, 2009)

found another book with all the Typhoon serial no's and what happened to them, i'll go through them and try and find out which Tiffies were lost on that day, might take a few days though


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## lesofprimus (Nov 27, 2009)

We got time Karl, appreciate the research man....

Im in the process of getting the whole scheme of things put together now, after the last bit u posted up.... Should have a good scope on things when Im done....

There are some Letter Codes still missing...


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## Airframes (Nov 27, 2009)

Regarding rockets v bombs on the Typhoons. Squadrons would normally be configured for one or the other, not both. Often, the squadrons within the wing would have alternate loads, one with rockets, another with bombs. The 439 Sqn Typhoons were definitely configured for bombs, but 168 might have had rocket mounts - I'll see what I can find out.
The Spitfire colours - entire interior was (British) Cockpit Grey-Green, apart from the instrument panel and fittings of course. Pilot's seat on the MkIX coild be black, silver, or the resin coloure dull brownish red. Wheel wells on the Spits were normally the underside colour, Medium Sea Gret, as were the inside of the leg doors. However, the 'roof of the wheel wells could sometimes be the grey green primer. Landing gear legs (main) were normall silver grey.
Typhoon wheel wells and ger doors inside were dull silver, cockpit colour was black. Note that although the 2 AF Typhoons had black spinners, some still had the 'sky' spinner, and this colour replaced the black after the end of the war.


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## ontos (Nov 27, 2009)

Thanks Airframes, I really appreciate the help.


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## Airframes (Nov 27, 2009)

You're more than welcome. I should have the whole package of info and pics e-mailed to Dan by Sunday - I hope!
If there are any specific pics you want or need, let me know, and I'll try to include them.
I'm going to photograph my 1/32nd scale models of the Spit MkIX and the Typhoon, from various angles, which might help with the modelling of the camoufalge schemes etc, and there'll also be colour profiles etc. I can include plan drawings of the Typhoon, Tempest and Spit if this will help?


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## lesofprimus (Nov 27, 2009)

Terry, great info Brother...

Here is part of the after action report from a member of 439 Sq :

"Our battle area over AACHEN BEING CLOSED IN, THE SQUADRON took off with no bombs to return to their old hunting ground in COSEFELD, Germany area."

Would this imply that they were only loaded up with cannon rounds or would they have put rockets on??? Was it a quick changeover from bombs to rockets??

As for the possibility of rockets on the 168 Sq crates, heres part of an after action report as well:

"Once we were bounced by the Germans, we pulled into a tight turn to port and fired off our rockets."


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## ontos (Nov 27, 2009)

Wow, I can't Waite to get the information and photos. Some good close shots of the interior of the cockpit, wheel wells would be great. I'm really excited about doing these skins, I just hope they come out right. 

Thanks to you guys for letting me help as much as I can.  8)


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## Airframes (Nov 27, 2009)

No probs Ontos, I should be able to find those pics.
Dan, the change to rockets from bombs was not a quick operation. The bomb racks were on a single pylon under each wing, where the rockets were on rails on four pylons under each wing, with independant wiring for the firing circuits for each RP. There were also two main types of RP, each looking different, and each with slightly different 'saddles' for mounting onto the rails.
The method, and therefore the training for the delivery of each type of ordnance was totally different, and of course involved different angles of attack etc. If a squadron was trained and equipped for bombs, then that's what they'd arm with as required, although some bomb equipped squadrons converted to rockets and vice versa at some times, if trained in the techniques.
I'm fairly sure 168 were rocket-equipped, just had to verify it. The combat report confirms this, the rockets would be salvoed, to save weight and drag, if combat was joined, just as drop tankls would have been. This squadron would opperate in conjunction with, say, 439, as a strike force to really hammer ground targets. The rockets would be used to take out tanks or other ground positions, and the bombs would follow up to add to the destruction - very effective, as we know from photos and footage of the aftermath!
I'll e-mail the whole package to you Dan, then you can distribute what's required to the other guys as you wish.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 27, 2009)

Just finding things in my books and posting.. dunno if they help..


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## lesofprimus (Nov 27, 2009)

Harrison, the basics are pretty much covered... What we need now is actual aircraft from the same squadrons and/or combat information concerning 29Dec44...

Appreciate the help and support ur throwin into the mix....


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## B-17engineer (Nov 27, 2009)

Oh Ok. What squadrons?


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## lesofprimus (Nov 28, 2009)

LMAO, maybe read the thread??????

168 Sq RAF
439 Sq RCAF
331 Sq (Norwegian) RAF

OK, first and foremost, Haanes was infact flying FN W not H as the pic shows... FN W was the crate of Maj Gran... 

Thanks Karl....

Also finished goin over all the reference materials available to me, and cross referencing them and the map below is a best guess synopsis...

Heres the breakdown of the combat....
Weiss and crew bounce 168 Sq RAF as they're choppin some trains near Coesfeld, Fw Ungar(Y?) shoots down F/L Gibbons(QC ?) on the bounce... F/L Stubbs(QC ?) then shoots down Fw Kreisel(Y10) and Ofw Philipp(Y6) shoots down F/L Plant(QC S).... While headed North Philipp gets nailed by F/L Stevens(QC ?), bails out, his chute buns up and he's out of action...

As Weiss comes through the bounce, F/L Kay(QC L) latches onto them and in quick succession shoots down the number 3 and 4 men of Weiss' Schwarm, Uffz Rupp(B4) and Oblt Bellaire(B3)....

Mayhem breaks loose....

As Hptm Weiss(B10) and Fw Neersen(B2) flee at low level East towards Osnabruck, Typhoons of 439 Sq RCAF run into the battle, allowing Uffz Rey(Y?) to shootdown W/O Church(5V ?)....

After shooting down F/L Gibbons, Fw Ungar spots Hptm Weiss and Fw Neersen at treetop height and joins up with them, and in turn are joined by Oblt Schreiner(Y9)....

Headed North towards Lengerich, the 4 are spotted by 10 Spitfires of 331 Sq (Norwegian) RAF... 2nd Lt Stousland(FN K) leads the bounce and is passed by F/Sgt Haanes(FN W) in the dive....

Ungar calls the bounce, Weiss, Neersen and Scheiner bank to stbd while Ungar flies straight to avoid being shotdown.... Haanes picks out Schreiner and shoots him down.... While attempting to engage the Spitfires, Stousland shoots down Neersen.... Weiss quickly counters and blows the tail section of Capt Raeders(FN B) Spitfire clean off, sending it spinning down...

As Weiss watches the spinning wreck, he's shot full of holes by Haanes.... He attempts to disengage and dives down.... Headed straight for a farmhouse, he barely pulls up over it to slam into the woods behind....

Damn, 10 combat situations to get in, as well as some train strafing destruction.....

We're still in dire need of some codes:
Fw Ungar Yellow ?
Uffz Rey Yellow ?
F/L Gibbons 168 sq RAF QC ?
F/L Stubbs 168 sq RAF QC ?
F/L Stevens 168 sq RAF QC ?
W/O Church 439 sq RCAF 5V ?


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## B-17engineer (Nov 28, 2009)

Well, there were 20 different ones here and I'm not sure what to look for. .... sorry....

Found this on 331 Squadron, I know your looking for specific but anyways.

"A brief spell against Fw 190's and Bf 109's on the 29th of December resulted in 16 Germans destroyed, losses 4 Spitfires and one pilot."

Between 41 and Nov-45 Norwegian

Bingo! 

Have a look PLEASE. I found this after an hour of searching and the bold top right is a claim of a Me-109. And the Very bottom are a whole bunch of spits lines up on the runway.

http://www.warbirdsmagazine.com/squadron/index.html

But you know this squadron. Thought it'd be interesting tho 

Enjoy!

Hans Dortenmann had a kill on December 29th, any relation? 24.

29.12.1944 Date

12:50 pm. Time

Spitfire- Aircraft shot down 

12./JG 54-Unit Flying with

GS JQ, Münster-Handorf area

". On 29 December, Dortenmann shot down a RAF Spitfire in the Münster area on a day that III./JG 54 lost its Gruppenkommandeur Hauptmann Robert Weiss (121 victories, RK-EL) in addition to 12 other pilots in combat with Spitfires and Typhoons."


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## Airframes (Nov 28, 2009)

Nice pic Harrison! More variations on the spinner colours for 331 Squadron! That one has the black for 2 TAF, but retains the Norwegian national colours. So far, there have been spinners in 'Sky', 'Sky' with the National colours, the black for 2 TAF, and now a combination! Have to trace the serial number and code letter for that one!
EDIT: Doh! The code letter is staring in the face, it's repeated on the nose - 'O' !!
Just looked at the link posted too, which I've already studied previously elsewhere. The line-up of Spits are the Squadron's earlier MkV's, but some of the other pics might yield the odd detail, if they were bigger, and in some cases if the date could be definitely pinned down.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 28, 2009)

Oh so the pic doesn't help? 

I am curious on Dortenmann


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## Airframes (Nov 28, 2009)

The pic of the belly-landed Spit is a great help H, and the info in the link is helpful too. I meant the line-up pic. When I first saw it last week on the 'net, I thought 'Ah Ha!', then I saw they were MkV's.
Bl**dy inconsiderate of the Norwegian guys to paint the stripes on some spinners and not others, and have some black and others 'Sky'! Didn't they know that 65 years later some people would be trying to identify who's who and what's what?!!
Tcchh tcchh, just not good enough don't you know!!!


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## B-17engineer (Nov 28, 2009)

Ohh I see. I saw the link and I was myself like Ah Ha! 

Did you know FN of 331 Sqd stood for "For Norway" ?


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## lesofprimus (Nov 28, 2009)

Thanks for the link and pic Harrison...

Dortenmann took off after the slaughter of Stab/JG54 happened... He did infact get a kill that afternoon....


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## B-17engineer (Nov 28, 2009)

Oh ok thanks!


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## Airframes (Nov 28, 2009)

Harrison, the title is probably a legend; it's also been refered to as 'First Norwegian', as 331 were the first RAF squadron made up of Norwegians. But it's more likely that the 'FN' codes were just coincidence. A caption to one photo states that the code letter repeated on the nose of one of the Spits is the initial of the pilot, which again could be coincidence, unless the particular pilot managed to 'bag' that particular Spit, as all of the Squadron's aircraft had their individual code letter on the nose, a common practice in many squadrons.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 28, 2009)

Ohh I see thanks Terry


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## Airframes (Nov 29, 2009)

Right guys, here's the info so far for the Typhoons, and a little on the Norwegian Spits. Rather than e-mail the whole lot to Dan, I thought it easier to post it here as a PDF, so all concerned in the 'production' etc can access it at their convenience.
I haven't got around to photographing the Typhoon and Spit models yet, but if you think this would help, let me know, and I'll do it later this week. Same for the Typhoon plans; as the skins are based on the Tempest, I left these out for now, but I can post them if required - just got to reduce them, as they're to 1/24th scale!!


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## lesofprimus (Nov 29, 2009)

Damn Terry, thats the sh!t man, thanks for takin the time....


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## Airframes (Nov 29, 2009)

No probs mate. And now, I'm off to bed, as I'm b*ll*xed!!


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## ontos (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks Terry this helps allot. Greatly appreciated. 8)


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## ontos (Dec 3, 2009)

This is what I have so far on Lt. Stouslands rig. Please advise of any alterations or changes I should make. I still have the mechanicals to do as well as the weathering etc. I changed the roundels, spinner as mentioned. Thanks


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## lesofprimus (Dec 4, 2009)

Looks pretty damn sweet to me Merv, she'll look top notch once u get her weathered up....


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## tomo pauk (Dec 4, 2009)

Cameras just love the Spitfire.


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## Airframes (Dec 4, 2009)

Nice work Merv! The only suggestion would be the yellow, wing leading-edge ID stripes, and the individual code letter beneath the nose. Don't know if it makes things easier, but not all of the Squadron's Spits had the broad-chord, pointed rudder. Bomb rack pylons were carried under each wing also, with the shackle points for a centreline bomb too.
Looks great so far, looking forward to seeing the finished beastie!


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## Njaco (Dec 4, 2009)

as an aside, Dortemann was going to be court-marshalled that day but it was cancelled after Weisds died.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 22, 2009)

OK, we got our first completed skin courtesy of Ontos... 

Comments and corrections are enthusiastically encouraged guys...


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## Njaco (Dec 22, 2009)

awesome! Wish I knew how to do that stuff!


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## Airframes (Dec 22, 2009)

Marvellous job!


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## Crimea_River (Dec 22, 2009)

Skin looks great but to me the grey in the camo looks a lttle too blue. Could be my screen.


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## Glider (Dec 30, 2009)

Going back a little I have copies of the combat reports from the Typhoons. Only three are on record but you might find them of interest.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 30, 2009)

The first 2 are perfect Glider, thanks for posting them.....

Got our second skin done by Ontos, FN O W of F/Sgt Haanes.....

Comments/Corrections are encouraged....


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## Airframes (Dec 31, 2009)

Beauty! It's possible the code letters are a little bit too small, but I'd have to check references again - smaller letters might have been used by the squadron, that is 24 inch characters, instead of the 36 inch 'standard' characters. Doesn't detract from it though, and it wouldn't be notciced anyway really, especially when moving.


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## ontos (Jan 1, 2010)

Need some help for the designator for the Spitfire for Maj. Cook, 411 sqn., all I have is Squadron code DB-, NH380.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 1, 2010)

Cant find anything on him Merv....


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## ontos (Jan 1, 2010)

OK, thanks mate. I'll just leave her the way she is. I'm starting the template for the Typhoon tomorrow. I toned down the spinner stripes a little and made them a little thinner. 8)


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## Airframes (Jan 3, 2010)

Spinner stripes, on the Typhoons? Don't know of any on the squadrons concerned. In theory,being 2 TAF, all the Typhoons should have had black spinners, but some still had 'Sky'. The Norwegian Spitfires had the National Colours as stripes on the Sky spinners in most cases, but these appear to have been painted out when the spinners were re-painted black.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 3, 2010)

Not on Tiffys Terry, he's still workin with the Spits...


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## lesofprimus (Jan 6, 2010)

OK, heres the 6 skins Merv has accomplished so far....

First 5 are from 331st Norwegian Squadron RAF; Reader, Haanes, Tilset, Stousland and Gran... Last one is a Spitfire from 411th Squadron RAF, flown by Cook...

Comments and corrections are needed before dropping them into the combat sequence.... 

Terry, need some solid critiqing here, Merv and I want these skins as close as reasonably possible......


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## lesofprimus (Jan 6, 2010)

Hmmm, just noticed that the serial code on Haanes *W *kite is missing Merv.... Is it because we dont know it???

If so, can we drop a generic code in there to fill the gap so to speak??


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## lesofprimus (Jan 6, 2010)

Also noticed Merv that the exhaust stacks are not the same in all skins... Love how they look on Haanes crate obviously...


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## B-17engineer (Jan 6, 2010)

Very cool


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## ontos (Jan 6, 2010)

Thanks, I'll make the changes. On the W, we didn't know what the codes were so I wasn't sure if you wanted me to make some up or leave it blank, I'll throw one on there. Do you want all the exaust stacks like those on Haanes krate, his was the only one I did different trying different filter? No problem to change them all. I just noticed that I need to put the DB shown in the picture to the aft of the roundel, don't know how I missed that


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## Airframes (Jan 6, 2010)

Looks good. Feeling rough at the momnt, so I'll have a closer look later. If the stripes are staying on the 'Sky' spinners, they should be narrower.
Where a serial number breaks into a code letter, the code normally covers that digit of the serial. SKy bands were only removed from Jan 5 1945, sometimes later.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 6, 2010)

Yea merv, all the stacks like Haanes would be great.... 

Thanks for lookin Terry..


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## ontos (Jan 6, 2010)

The Spitfire without the sky band is of the 411 sqn., which was Canadian I believe. Did they have sky bands?


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## Airframes (Jan 7, 2010)

Yep, all single-engined fighter aircraft, including those assigned to 2 TAF, had the sky bands until early January 1945. The accepted date of change was Jan 3 1945, but the removal or overpainting didn't happen immeidiately in some cases. At the same time, the upper wing roundels changed to the blue/white/red 'C' type, some with the narrow yellow outer circle (C1), and in many cases, the yellow leading edge ID stripes were removed. At the time depicted in the movie, the Sky bands, black spinners and yellow stripes would be present, along with the standard 'B' type blue/red upper wing roundels. Note, however, that some individual aircraft, Spitfires and Typhoons, still had the Sky spinner - this can only be ascertained from photogrpahic evidence of the aircraft concerned. In general, aircraft in squadrons assigned to 2 TAF were supposed to have black spinners.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 7, 2010)

Terry, can u critique each skin and give some advice on corrections, as u think best....

I would like to mix the spinners up alittle bit and get a couple with the rings.... Did u say that only sky spinners might have possibly had the rings???


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## Airframes (Jan 7, 2010)

In general, the comments in the previous post apply overall. As they stand, all the skins are acceptable, if the above comments are noted. The camouflage patterns, roundels and codes etc would be the same style/colour etc on all aircraft, apart from individual weathering/dirt of course.
I've seen Sky spinners with, and without stripes, but haven't had concrete evidence as to exact dates. I have seen *one* example of a Spit with a black spinner _and _stripes, but I'm fairly certain this was January 1945 or a little later.
I'd suggest a balance of Sky spinners with stripes, and overall black spinners, to be on the safe side! I'll have another look through my refs, as I feel fairly sure I've got a decent pic of one of the Norge Spits taking off, in close up, somewhere. If it's the pic I think it is, it shows the sky+ stripes spinner, but was taken on the Continent, whilst with 2 TAF, so demonstrates the mix of spinner colours, possibly attributed to replacements?
A note on the exhausts - depending on engine fit and/or mods, both the 'tubular' and box' type exhaust stubs could be seen, so any mix of colour/shape wouldn't be out of place. Exhaust staining on the Spit tended to curve slightly upward, then down, ending about mid-way beteween the joint of the engine cowl/fuel tank and the line of the windscreen. It wasn't harsh, more of a greyish haze normally, sometimes with a hint of pinkish light brown - depending on lean/rich running.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 7, 2010)

Thanks Terry...


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## ontos (Jan 7, 2010)

Thanks for all the information Terry, back to the drawing board.  8)


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## Airframes (Jan 7, 2010)

You're welcome guys.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2010)

Merv, u should in no way feel embarrassed man.... The skins uve made so far are great... This is a learning process for all of us.... These vids we're doing of recent are the most detailed and historically correct videos out there...

No one is comin close to the accuracy we've put into these.... Corrections will be needed, on ur end AND mine.... Im having a sh!t ass time gettin this to work on my end... 

Even harder than when I did the 355th Marshall Tribute, and that drove me nuts...

Keep on truckin Merv, do ur best with the corrections needed, and move on to the next my man... Ur doin phenomenal work and producing the sweetest Spits Ive seen in the game.... They blow all the others I have away....

Speaking of which, Im waiting quite patiently for Dave to unveil his first German skin.... Im expecting great things from his end, judging by his previous work...


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## B-17engineer (Jan 8, 2010)

I have to agree with Dan. 

Even though not a part of this just watching those skins posted here is sweet! I wish I could do those things!! 

Keep at it!


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## Airframes (Jan 8, 2010)

It's a bl**dy marvellous job if you ask me! Painting an accurate, lifelike picture on canvas is hard enough - and that blighter doesn't need to move! I don't know enough about how it's all done, but from what I've seen so far of the 'stills', this show is going to be stunning! Great work Merv and Dan, keep at it and just shout if I can help further.


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## ontos (Jan 8, 2010)

I don't know what to say guys,  Dan, B-17 and Terry you all have given me the determination to try and get these as close as I can. I am by no means a pro in skinning but, I really enjoy doing them for this endeavor and I know Dan will put together an Academy Award Winning clip. 

Cheers to you all,
Merv


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## B-17engineer (Jan 8, 2010)

That's the spirit!!!!!!!!


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## GrauGeist (Jan 9, 2010)

lesofprimus said:


> ...Speaking of which, Im waiting quite patiently for Dave to unveil his first German skin.... Im expecting great things from his end, judging by his previous work...


Now that we're clear of the Holidays and unexpected things here at home, work should be moving at a far better pace now...won't be long before the Luftwaffe appears over this thread's skies!


ontos said:


> I am by no means a pro in skinning but, I really enjoy doing them for this endeavor...


That's what it's all about, Merv...having fun.

And don't kid yourself, man...you've done outstanding work that rivals the best there is out there.


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## Airframes (Jan 9, 2010)

Got to agree with Dave. I'm not 'in' to flight sim, although I have had the odd dabble now and then, but your work is every bit as good as the best I've seen, and way, way better than a lot I've seen. Great job so far mate, or as a Spit pilot of the period might have said 'Wizzard show old boy!'


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## alejandro_ (Jan 20, 2010)

I have a question on III/JG 54 and I would like to post it here, mainly to avoid opening a whole topic. III/JG 54 was sent West on February 1943. The transfer only involved pilots, who picked up brand new Bf-109G in Germany and headed to Vendeville. The unit was placed under control of III/JG 26 in Wevelghem.

Apparently the integration was difficult, the unit was quite large and the type of fighting in eastern front quite different. In Russia combats took place at low/medium heights against fighters and tactical bombers. In the West they would be intercepting strategic bombers and escorts at high altiude (>7000 meters).

The unit trained for a month, with Major Priller being heavily involved in it. In a few occassions he monitored the flight formations and manage to bounce them without being spotted. He was ed about this and refused to declare the unit operational. In late March III/JG 54 was taken away from III/JG 26 and sent to Germany.

My question is:

- Were there more units "struggling" when changing from one front to the other? this also includes units fighting in Western Europe and then in USSR.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 20, 2010)

There were many units and pilots, as well as a bunch of Aces that died shortly after reurning from the Eastern Front....


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## alejandro_ (Jan 21, 2010)

> There were many units and pilots, as well as a bunch of Aces that died shortly after reurning from the Eastern Front....



A few also struggled when doing the opposite. However, I am looking for information from the point of view of the whole unit. I./JG 26 was sent to Russia and seemed to achieve good results.


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## ontos (Feb 5, 2010)

This is what I have so far on the Typhoon, I know it's not exactly like a Typhoon because I had to use a Tempest void to make the template. I still have the weathering and some details lighting effects to do. I also forgot to paint the cockpit frame, I just noticed that 

Terry if you can give me any pointers please do.


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## lesofprimus (Feb 5, 2010)

Looks pretty damn good Merv, cant wait to see em all dollied up man...


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## ontos (Feb 5, 2010)

Thanks Dan, I just put the call letters and signs for Gibbons on this one. 8)


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## Airframes (Feb 6, 2010)

Wow! That looks the business! Great job Merv. Just three very minor things, which you could leave as is if it's a pain.
The Sky band on the rear fuselage was 18 inches wide. It might just be the angles, but it looks a little narrow on the skins. 
If you can make the whip antenna on top of the fuselage thinner, great, if not, no probs.
The pilot's head armour should be black, both sides. Again, not a major problem.
These should look f%^$£"g brilliant with the codes, ordnance and a bit of weathering! Don't need much of the latter, as the present appearance looks pretty good.
Very nice job mate!


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## ontos (Feb 6, 2010)

Thanks for the information Terry, I can make the ban wider and the head armor black, as for the antenna theres not much I can do with that in that, the size is built in the template. Did the 168, 438th sqn have all the same markings? Any special art work etc? Thanks again for your help Terry.


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## Airframes (Feb 6, 2010)

Code letter colours, presentation and style, far as I know, should be the same, but I have a feeling one Squadron used slightly 'stylised' letters - I'll check and let you know. As for any artwork/nose art etc, this wasn't that common on Typhoons, but again, I'll have a look to see if there was anything.


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## lesofprimus (Feb 6, 2010)

Thanks for the extra effort Terry, its greatly appreciated..


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## Airframes (Feb 8, 2010)

Done a quick check, and there were no differences in the two squadrons' code presentation - both standard letters, in 'Sky'. I did find that at least one aircraft from 168 Squadron, QC-S, serial No.MN639, had a yellow spinner, and this is possibly true of all aircraft from this 'Flight within the Squadron', probably 'B Flight' (Yellow Section). If I find any more on this, I'll let you know.


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## ontos (Feb 9, 2010)

Thanks Terry, I really appreciate your time and research.


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## Airframes (Feb 9, 2010)

No problem Merv, you're more than welcome.


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## ontos (Feb 15, 2010)

Well the Typhoon is coming along, suggestions welcome.


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## lesofprimus (Feb 15, 2010)

Looks damn good Merv....


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## Njaco (Feb 15, 2010)

I'd love to know how you guys do this! Looks great!!


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## Airframes (Feb 16, 2010)

I like it ! Great work Merv!


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## lesofprimus (Feb 16, 2010)

No corrections needed Terry???


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## Lucky13 (Feb 16, 2010)

Great looking Tempest mate!


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## Airframes (Feb 16, 2010)

Can't see anything Dan, unless the lower fuselage still had AEAF stripes, but I think we covered that.


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## ontos (Feb 17, 2010)

I think she is done now. I added the yellow spinner and stripes.


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## lesofprimus (Feb 17, 2010)

Frickin nice Merv.... I need to give a shout to GrauGeist again and see how he's comin along...


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## Airframes (Feb 17, 2010)

Very nice job Merv! Only one small point - the Rocket Projectiles should have a dark green body (the propellant tube) with a dark olive green warhead, not red.


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## lesofprimus (Feb 17, 2010)

Cant change the rockets Terry...


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## Airframes (Feb 18, 2010)

Ah well, no probs. Maybe they were borrowed from Kelly's Heroes - splashed paint all over when they hit! Woof Woof!


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## lesofprimus (Feb 18, 2010)

LMAO Terry.... Im sure theres a MOD for the game that can change the armament colors...


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## ontos (Feb 19, 2010)

Can you guys tell me if the 168th Typhoons had the walk paths at the wing rout ? 8)


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## Airframes (Feb 19, 2010)

Yep. All Typhoons had the ant-slip panels, and the starboard one had a small 'kick-in' step near the trailing edge, although this can't really be seen when closed.


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## ontos (Feb 19, 2010)

Thanks Terry, I appreciate the information. I'll have to add that to my aircraft, forgot it.


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## Airframes (Feb 20, 2010)

You're welcome Merv. Anything else, just ask.


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## ontos (Feb 27, 2010)

Here is a Typhoon, (Tempest) for the 438 sqn., please advise of any changes that need to be done. The pictures I have of the 438 sqn show invasion stripes on the wings and a black spinner, actually I only found two pictures.


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## GrauGeist (Feb 27, 2010)

Merv, you're doing an outstanding job...thanks for your hard work!


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## Wayne Little (Feb 28, 2010)

Sweet!


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## lesofprimus (Feb 28, 2010)

Gonna be one sick frickin video by the time I get my greedy hands on all this fine work....

Excellent work once again Merv...


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## Airframes (Feb 28, 2010)

Beaut job Merv, right on the button mate!


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## GrauGeist (Mar 7, 2010)

After what must seem like an eternity, here comes Weiss!

I'm in the finishing stages, adjusting the mottling and a few small annoyances like panel gaps and camo overlap (under the intake) and then add some mud stuff and I think we're in business.

Now's a good time for any comments, suggestions or death-threats...


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## Airframes (Mar 7, 2010)

Make me one or your cat's toast! That good enough mate?
Great job, looks the biz to me.


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## lesofprimus (Mar 7, 2010)

Lookin pretty hot sh!t Dave, workin on this other Hartmann 109G-6 vidclip is making me chomp at this missions bit....

I dont enjoy flying the 109G as much as the Dora-9...


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## ontos (Mar 7, 2010)

Great job Dave, the mottling looks great. I guess that's why I stay away from German planes, never done mottling. Keep em coming mate.  8)


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