# P-51



## Huckebein (May 25, 2004)

How diplomatic/ nationalistic/ jealous are you feeling?   

The most successful marks of P-51 Mustang were American airframes, built to a British specification, used a British engine, designed by a German, and flown by pilots of all Allied nationalities (except p'raps Russian).  

So the question/ statement is: (see above)


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## cheddar cheese (May 25, 2004)

ive gone for one of the best american fighters


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## Huckebein (May 25, 2004)

Hmmm, fair enough - what state would the Americans in Europe have been in had the British not ordered the Mustang in 1940/1 (can't remember which), and then re'engined it in '43? As it is the Merlin Mustangs didn't reach active service 'til '44.


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## plan_D (May 25, 2004)

It's really a stupid poll. I'd say it was the best American fighter because it was the best the Americans had.


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## cheddar cheese (May 25, 2004)

ive seen worse polls, just look at all the ones ive made?


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## Huckebein (May 25, 2004)

Ok, sorry it doesn't meet your standards Plan_D, it was just a light-hearted poll to see what discussion the suggestion would inspire. Even I voted it was an American plane, I just heard a friend of mine once comment that for an American plane it had an awful lot of foreign input in it...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 25, 2004)

exactily, how can you say it was an american plane, it had a brittish engine and brittish designers, but i'm gona go with the text book and say it was an american plane, we gotta give them credit for summit...................


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## Lightning Guy (May 25, 2004)

British designers? The P-51 was a good plane, but, as I have mentioned before, it was over-rated. The P-51D was no better (and in some areas worse) that the P-38L.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 26, 2004)

it made a better escort than the P-38 though..............


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## Lightning Guy (May 26, 2004)

That would be very tough to prove. The P-51 didn't arrive in strength until mid '44 or so. By the time they arrived the American pilots had gotten better, the German pilots were, on average, getting worse (loss of pilots, lack of fuel for training), and the American tactics no longered required the fighters to stay ties to the bombers. The P-38 wasn't really given those chances and I imagine would have done very well if had.


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## Erich (May 26, 2004)

Pioneer Mustang group, the 354th in late November 1943 and surprised the heavy rocket laden Bf 110G-2's attacking heavy US bombers more than once.

Luftwaffe tactics changed on 7-7-44 on the Blitzschlacht über Oschersleben, but even this could not help overwhelmed Luftwaffe fighter pilots. And that friends is the whole ball of wax. due to bombing, thus resulting in lack of oil/fuel reserves, strafing and bombing of forward airfields and completely driven from the skies the Luftwaffe was in a hopeless situation except to send up new "kids" on suicidal missions.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 26, 2004)

the He-162 was a good plane but all the germans had left when it came in were hitler youth pilots who only had training in gliders, bit of a step up................


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## Erich (May 26, 2004)

the He 162 was another death ride like the Me 163 komet. not enough thought, time or working out the malfunctions of jet and fuselage. Niether was time on the Germans side either. only JG 1 had the a/c on hand and the unit lost some excellent pilots due to mechanical air breakdowns. one claim of an RAF a/c possibly but still uncertain.


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## cheddar cheese (May 26, 2004)

well, for starters, making out of wood was where it went wrong for me, then where they positioned the jet... i mean i love the plane but it had its faults 8)

whilst im here, does anyone have any info on the BI-1 rocket plane?


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## Erich (May 26, 2004)

CC the a/c was fatal from the time it left the drawing board. an ill-conceived idea from the start. worthless in everyway and not having a benfit to aviation history except to say that it killed it's own........there were grander schemes on the German tech boards and they should of furthered them. Focke Wulf had some quite interesting propostions that should of shown the light of day


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## cheddar cheese (May 26, 2004)

is that for the BI-1 or the 162?


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## Lightning Guy (May 26, 2004)

The He-162 was simple to produce and that's why it received the attention it did. Germany wasn't necessarily looking for the best thing just a good thing FAST. Now whether or not the 162 was a good thing is a matter of debate. In the hands of a skilled pilot, it probably could have been handled. In the hands of some green HJs it would do well to take off.


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## Erich (May 26, 2004)

as I said expereicned pilots of JG 1 died as the result of this monstorusity. 12 to be exact. Irreplaceable pilots and what reallys sucks is that it was at the war's end and it really did not matter whether this goofy piece of equipment flew or not...........

sad story to be sure

E ~


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## Huckebein (May 27, 2004)

Here you go CC: http://www.astronautix.com/craft/bi1.htm

As for the '162 - it sounds a bit of a foolhardy effort to me. They went for a quick and easy solution to air-defence problems = a recipe for disaster. You can't go half-hearted on these things, and they learned that the hard way I think.


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## cheddar cheese (May 27, 2004)

cheers  and as for your siggy, thats not a crash, its a model


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## Huckebein (May 27, 2004)

Ah quit complaining!  By getting all defensive you merely acknowledge that you're wrong.


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## cheddar cheese (May 27, 2004)

but im not wrong, thats the irony 8)


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## Huckebein (May 27, 2004)

Lol, gimme a Mossie Fb.VI in Forgotten Battles and I'll show you how a Lightning should look!


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## Erich (May 27, 2004)

geez guys how are we getting away from the P-51 topic again........

wonder what would of happened if the Luftwaffe was able to develop a P-51 look a like ?


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## cheddar cheese (May 27, 2004)

that sounds like a challenge my good man, when ive had a bit more practise youre on


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## Huckebein (May 27, 2004)

Heh, no Mossie in FB yet...  

But when there is (and I have a computer that can run the blasted game) you're on! 8) 

Back on topic... erm... I can't think of anything to say re: the Mustang.


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## cheddar cheese (May 27, 2004)

nothing beats me on fb when im at the helm of an I-153


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## Lightning Guy (May 27, 2004)

Erich, are you talking about something that could have been used to get close to Allied bomber formations? I'm not sure how effective that would have been. P-51s flying escort had to be careful as to how they approached bomber formations as they were often (especially the B model) mistaken for 109s.


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## Erich (May 27, 2004)

no just thinking a good high altitidue great turning a/c. Yes the Dora and Ta 152 are good what if's but numbers too low...........


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 27, 2004)

> wonder what would of happened if the Luftwaffe was able to develop a P-51 look a like ?



they would have a plane that looked like the P-51??


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## Erich (May 27, 2004)

not exactly but the aerodynamic shape. the Germans always were interested in oversized engines and more power, but they finally got it straight in 1945 with Ta 152 but too little too late...........and thank goodness !


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## cheddar cheese (May 28, 2004)

i think the fw-190d-9 looked better than the ta-152 8)


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## Erich (May 28, 2004)

actually I think the TA is just the big brother of the Dora. anyone share some drawings of the two in profiles just to show the similiarities ?

I'm outta here

E ~


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 29, 2004)

the dora's ugly................


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## cheddar cheese (May 29, 2004)

no it isnt. the dora is possibly one of the best looking german planes


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## Erich (May 29, 2004)

elaborate please ! the dora ugly and why ? It's a sharp looking plane, not a big fat nose or fuselage, adequate firepower and service ceiling for combat.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 29, 2004)

i'm sorry but i don't like the long nose, the FW-190A-8 was better looking.............

and C.C., what's the other plane in the distance in your pic???


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## GermansRGeniuses (May 29, 2004)

The one under him? That's just a pitch, roll, and climb meter that happens to be a mini 3D plane. Dora is beautiful people!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 29, 2004)

no, if you look straight down from the dora, there's another plane in the distance.................


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## Erich (May 29, 2004)

the two fotos represent a Ta 152C later sent to JG 301.

The lower pic of a Fw 190D of JG 6, captured


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## cheddar cheese (May 30, 2004)

yes lanc, its a pitch, climb and roll meter  its a mini 3d plane and if you look just below it theres a small grid that represents the land


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 30, 2004)

AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN SEE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## plan_D (May 30, 2004)

I believe you are Lanc. 

I do like the looks of the Fw-190A-8 more than the D-9. I still do love the looks of the D-9, and any other Fw-190 for that matter.


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## Lightning Guy (May 30, 2004)

I have a couple of great plan skecthes of the D-9 and the 152. Unfortunately, they are too large to fit a scanner (and I don't have a scanner anyway). I think the D-9 was the better looking of the two as the wings of the 152 just seem too long to me.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 31, 2004)

Plan_D, that is a dora, the A-8 had a much shorter nose................


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## plan_D (Jun 1, 2004)

I never said it was the A-8. I said that I like the looks on the A-8 better than on the D-9. Stop trying to get posts out of things that don't exist, just put a smilie or something.


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 1, 2004)

yeah, you could learn a lot from me lanc


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 14, 2004)

i've already learnt "" from you, what else do i need.................


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 24, 2004)

A haircut...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 24, 2004)

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurned!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 24, 2004)

my hair don't look bad when it's straight................


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 28, 2004)

It does, it looks worse....


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