# 300s only



## Udet (Mar 19, 2005)

Victors, lower your voice as the Masters of the Sky speak

No further comments are necessary.


P.S. Source of this photo: unknown. It´s been a while since some one e-mailed it to me.


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## wmaxt (Mar 19, 2005)

Udet said:


> Victors, lower your voice as the Masters of the Sky speak
> 
> No further comments are necessary.
> 
> ...



You have a point However 

1) How many times were they shot down? 
2) Where would their scores have stopped if like Allied pilots they were shot down over hostile teritory the first (and only) time?
3) How target rich was their skies compared to Allied pilots who were at times under orders not to prosecute a fight but to chase the German planes away?
4) How many New German pilots were sacrificed because they didn't pass their experiance on to the newbies like the Allied pilots did?

Their abilities were wasted. If they had trained a new generation of pilots they could have shot down many times what they actually did.

Had they fought over enemy soil their scores would have been on the order of the Allies highest scorers. They were great but lets not go overboard and compare apples and onions.


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## DAVIDICUS (Mar 19, 2005)

And, of course, 

5) How would they have fared against Francis Gabreski?


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## wmaxt (Mar 19, 2005)

DAVIDICUS said:


> And, of course,
> 
> 5) How would they have fared against Francis Gabreski?



Or Richard Bong?


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 19, 2005)

Or Tom McGuire?


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## DAVIDICUS (Mar 19, 2005)

Or The Lone Ranger. 

Oh, sorry ... wrong post.


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## Nonskimmer (Mar 19, 2005)

Damn! Someone beat me to it!


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## Chocks away! (Mar 20, 2005)

Or Han Solo...


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## mosquitoman (Mar 20, 2005)

Or Jonnie Johnson; John Cunningham (at night) or all 4 of the Turtles?


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## CTO (Mar 20, 2005)

and how much did they overclaimed?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 20, 2005)

or Tom McLean..........


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## mosquitoman (Mar 20, 2005)

Who's he?


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## Brunner (Mar 21, 2005)

CTO said:


> and how much did they overclaimed?





Frankly speaking, the German system of awarding the "victories" was significantly fair and just. (especially when comparred to the soviet one  ). After the war Hartmann's kills were investigated by several Allied commissions and all (or almost all) were confirmed...


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 21, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> or Tom McLean..........



He was a singer, not a pilot! 

No wait, thats Don McLean...


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## Brunner (Mar 21, 2005)

or Ben Affleck in Pearl Harbor


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## Medvedya (Mar 21, 2005)

Or Ben Affleck in Gigli.

"It's turkey time - gobble, gobble." 

Wow - what a film!


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## GT (Mar 21, 2005)

Update.


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## KraziKanuK (Mar 22, 2005)

> By 1944, the Jagdwaffe were putting up pilots with only 20-30 hours of flight-training against war-hardened American pilots, and the Germans were getting shot down in ever increasing numbers. The German Experten were doing well, but they were to few to control the situation.



While the Western Allied pilots might have had much more air time, you cannot call them 'hardened veterans'. How much combat experience can one get in 50 sorties?

BTW, ~ 2/3 of the Experten with 50 and more 'kills' survived the war.


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## GT (Mar 23, 2005)

Update.


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## hellmaker (Mar 23, 2005)

TOP 3 German Aces

Erich Hartmann
Kills 352 all on the eastern front	
First kill Nov. 1942 
KCOSD	
JG 52 
Bf 109

Gerhard Barkhorn 
Kills 301 all on the eastern front	
120 missions w/o a kill
KCOS	
JG 52, 6, JV 44
Bf 109

Günther Rall 
Kills 272 on the Eastern front
Kills 3 on the Western front 
KCOS	JG 52, 11, 300	
Bf 109

Most german aces had all of their kills on the eastern front... the russians didn't pose such a threath...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 23, 2005)

Tom McLean was a rear gunner with 617 Sqn, he's credited with 5 confirmed kills and one propable............


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## Brunner (Mar 23, 2005)

hellmaker said:


> Most german aces had all of their kills on the eastern front... the russians didn't pose such a threath...



Well, their most lethal weapon was their number...
And the fact is, that when the "Experten" from the Soviet front were being transferred to the Western Europe, very many of them didn't live for long in the struggle with USAAF and RAF... (this rotation between two fronts occured to be one of the most tragic ideas of General Galland)


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## Udet (Mar 24, 2005)

The most lethal weapon of the Luftwaffe fighters pilots was "their numbers"?

It appears to me you filled the blanks with the incorrect words.

Those who had numbers as their most lethal weapon happened to be the RAF and the USAAF.

So now it results the USAAF and RAF had superior fighters, superior engines, superior guns, superior cannons, superior gunsights, superior training, superior tactics, superior intelligence? Very amusing. I would like to have some pop corn here with me.

Any of the fighters of both USAAF and RAF could hardly deal with either the Bf109 or Fw190 in even numbers, or even in situations where the allies enjoyed a slight numerical superiority.

The dozens and dozens of pilots and airmen killed in action -of both USAAF and RAF- against the Luftwaffe will not let you have the whole cake.

The Supreme Eagle, which is Erich Hartmann, certainly helps on this: a pilot based exclusively in the east dealt with the dreaded Mustangs accordingly sending 7 of them down to the ground, with all 7 pilots killed.

(I recently learned some sources give Erich eight mustangs)

Excuse me, but no matter what kind of a genius Erich was, but had he been flying "a nearly obsolete plane" -like the victors address the late Bf109s- against the "marvel" they say the Mustang was, the outcome of Erich´s life could have been different don´t you think?

So what´s it going to be? It is either the Bf109 was not "obsolent" or the P-51 marvel was not that marvelous.


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## GT (Mar 24, 2005)

Update.


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## Brunner (Mar 24, 2005)

Udet said:


> The most lethal weapon of the Luftwaffe fighters pilots was "their numbers"?
> 
> It appears to me you filled the blanks with the incorrect words.
> 
> ...



I didin't refer to Germans but to Russians you know. You don't need to explain it to me. I know what the German fighters were capable of and what were the results of many "meetings" the British or American boys had with Experten... 

I didn't say anything about supremacy of the allied planes, tactics etc.
I never thought that way and never dared to say something like that as I know it's not true.


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## GT (Mar 24, 2005)

Update.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 24, 2005)

but whilst it's true that german pilots shot down many of our fighters, we were also out there shooting them down, you seem to think they were invincible, and remember whilst the germans had many aces scoring 100+, they had even more pilots goiung down on their first mission........


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## Brunner (Mar 24, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> but whilst it's true that german pilots shot down many of our fighters, we were also out there shooting them down, you seem to think they were invincible, and remember whilst the germans had many aces scoring 100+, they had even more pilots goiung down on their first mission........



Of course. It is true, I'm not denying that. 
I'm not saying that Jerries were invincible, but until their training system and programme worked without any disturbance, German pilots were able to fight outnumbered with our fighters. Later, when the fuel shortage and strafing Thuds and Typhoons were making the process of training the LW fighters more problematic and shorter, they occured to have difficulties even with surviving their first sortie. (however even among these young pilots trained in 43 and 44 there were some very talented and skilled airmen).


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