# Best Allied Nightfighter: P-61, Mosquito, or Hellcat?



## kitfox (Oct 29, 2006)

Hello. This is my first posting. I read with interest an extensive evaluation of WW2 aircraft at Elgin Field, Florida throughout 1945. This testing included flying competition between all current USA production fighter aircraft. (P-51D, F4U-4, P-39Q, P-40N, P-38L, P-47D-25, P-61B, F6F-3, FM-1, and P-63) It also included some pilots from Canada and the UK, and a few foreign aircraft (Hurricane, Spitfire, A6M2, Bf-109E, Mosquito NFII). The report listed the result of the flyoff between the P-61B and Mosquito NFII "inconclusive", the only flyoff so listed. There was interest by the Americans to abandon the P-61 and procure only Mosquitos for the nightfighter role. My question is: 
*What was the best nightfighter Allied aircraft; P-61B, Mosquito NF-XIII, or F6F-5N?*
Thank you.


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## delcyros (Oct 29, 2006)

The Mosquito NF XII for me most, but this isn´t a general answer.
It very much depends on the thread scenario and I must admit that the P-61 could proove more able to development changes in some respects.


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## ndicki (Oct 29, 2006)

I should think the Mossie, for one or two reasons that I can think of offhand - higher speed: about 612kph/380mph compared to 589kph for the Widow (sorry, but my docs on the Widow are in German, with metric measures. It would in fact be fairer to compare the Widow, which entered squadron service in March 1944, with the Mossie NF. Mk30. This entered service in 1944, and had two-stage Merlin 72s or 76s, and a speed of 424mph/682kph.

The Mossie was not just faster, but significantly more manoueverable (is that how it's spelt?), too.

It was cheaper and easier to build, needing far less in the way strategic materials.

And it had a not dissimilar punch; although it had lost the four .303 Brownings, the four 20mm Hispanos were the same. Do not forget that the turret was not carried on many P-61s, having proven to be unreliable.

Hellcats? As night fighters? Forget it. A single seater equipped with AI, at that time, gave the pilot too many things to look at at the same time. Just flying at night was difficult enough, plus keeping an eye on navigation - you never know when your d/f kit is going to pack up - without having to keep your eyes on a second set of dials for the AI system. And 6 .50 brownings do not pack enough punch to do significant damage to a bomber with just a few hits. Because at night, that's what you're going to get.

I think you've forgotten the Beaufighter, as well; not as advanced as the Mossie, but greatly loved by the people who used it. 4x 20mm Hispanos and 7x .303 Brownings...


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## Gnomey (Oct 29, 2006)

Mossie for me - ndicki has mentioned the main reasons for my decision.


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 29, 2006)

Mossie was a better performer but I would look at this by theater. In the SW Pacific I'd go with the P-61. It was tailored for the role and had nice round reliable engines. We could argue which aircraft had the better radar, I think in reality they were about the same. The Mossie had an edge on firepower but it's wood structure could be troublesome, especially if continually repaired.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 29, 2006)

this's already been covered and apart from CC and wmaxt who will swear blind that the P-38 is the best most will agree to it being the mossie NF.XXX, and whilst i agree the Beau does deserve a mention she wasn't the best, better than a hallcat though  ................


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 29, 2006)

The Hellcat was a qucik fix - the F4U-5N was probably the best Naval recip single engine night fighter.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 29, 2006)

I voted for the Mossie and she was obviously a better aircraft than the other aircraft post but I agree with FBJ that for the PTO the P-61 would be better only due to construction. Wood would rot easier in the PTO.


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## k9kiwi (Oct 29, 2006)

As it did

Early Mosquitos in the Far East delaminated due to the glue used, until it was changed.


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## Hurricane33 (Oct 29, 2006)

how come no one mentioned the messerschmitt bf 110?


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## Gnomey (Oct 29, 2006)

Because it is best *Allied* night fighter...

So no Axis ones in the poll...


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 29, 2006)

This from Wikipedia...

"Training of P-61 crews commenced in a variety of ways. Several existing night fighter squadrons operating in the Mediterranean and Pacific Theatres were to transition directly into the P-61 from Bristol Beaufighters and Douglas P-70s, though most P-61 crews were to be made up of new recruits operating in newly commissioned squadrons. After receiving flight, gunnery, or radar training in bases around the U.S. the pilots, gunners, and radar operators were finally combined and received their P-61 operational training in Florida, for transfer to the European Theatre or California, for operations in the Pacific Theatre."

The 422nd Night Fighter Squadron was the first squadron to complete their training in Florida and, in February 1944, the squadron was shipped to England aboard the Mauritania. The 425th NFS was soon to follow aboard the Queen Elizabeth.

Upon arrival in England, the two squadrons found they were without any aircraft. The crews passed the time by flying the base's Airspeed Oxford and Cessna C-87, as well as visits to local towns and occasionally to London.

The situation deteriorated in May 1944 when the squadrons learned that several USAAF Generals believed the P-61 was too slow to effectively engage in combat with German fighters and medium bombers. The RAF shared this view, based on a single P-61 they had received in early May. The RAF championed switching to their De Havilland Mosquito Mk. XVI. Several pilots in the 422nd NFS threatened to turn in their wings if they weren't permitted to fly the "Black Widow." At the end of May, the USAAF insisted on a competition between the Mosquito and the P-61 for operation in the European Theatre. RAF crews flew the Mosquito Mk. XVI while crews from the 422nd NFS flew the P-61. *In the end the USAAF determined that the P-61 had a slightly better rate of climb, and could turn tighter than the Mosquito*.  The RAF disputed these claims and continued to push for the use of the Mosquito, but the P-61 was considered the victor. *In later tests conducted by the manufacturers, the two aircraft were actually found to be very similar in performance, with no clear advantage for either aircraft.*

As I posted here before, while the light wood structre of the Mossie was its strength, wood could be real troublesome in the field. Those working with it had to be well trained and some of the repair operations required a clean temperature controlled environment, something not readily available in that day. An aluminum structure aircraft could be repaired almost anywhere you could bring tools and possibly shop air for a rivet gun. Also aluminum structures were a lot more forgiving if the repairs weren't of the highest quality, not the same for wood....


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## ndicki (Oct 29, 2006)

Actually, the AI was the same - AI Mk X, which was the British built US SCR-720.


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## syscom3 (Oct 29, 2006)

I thought the roll rate of the P61 was superior due to the "zap flaps".

There was an occasion in New Guinie where a P61 actually turned inside a Japanese "sally" which wa pursuing it, and maintained the turn through several complete circles. This was an accomplishment of sorts.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 29, 2006)

Hurricane33 said:


> how come no one mentioned the messerschmitt bf 110?



Before you make stupid questions like that please read the title of the the thread. Was the Bf-110 used by the Allies...


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## Erich (Oct 29, 2006)

the 2 ETO squads that have mentioned incluidng the 418th nfs perferred the P-61 in the night ground attack and intruder roles. The two nfs mentioned also and I hate to say this but as a member of the US nf assoc. the crews were terrible at iding friend/foe at night even with the useage of the special night glasses. Me 262's were supposedly visualized in Oct. of 44 which is wrong as well as the id of Me 163's at night which is also incorrect. Several mysterious flying saucer shapes were also id'd and their are other peculiararites as well

the best of the three mentioned is the Mossie XXX without doubt


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## Emac44 (Oct 29, 2006)

Each aircraft had it valuations to me. Mossies were used European theatre and it suited the purposes to be used as a night fighter. if the poll was exclusive to each theatre it was used in i would vote towards the actual conditions it was exposed to P61 was brilliant in its role in Pacific theatre and operating to its conditions for example the high humidity found in the Pacific and Asian region etc where as the Mosquito operated just fine in cooler climates found in Europe. Hellcat i didn't even know it was used as a nightfighter so i would have to discount it due to my ignorance of its capabilities. but between the Mosquito and the black widow neck a neck in performance durability and overall handling by the crews using them. but for me the Mosquito by a hairs breathe and only just


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## kitfox (Oct 29, 2006)

Yes, I am corrected in my question. I incorrectly did not list the P-70, P-38M, or Beaufighter. Did the F4U-4N any kills? They should be considered also.

In this report I read, the visibility, firepower, cockpit layout was preferred in the P-61B. Tandem seating, acceleration, and responsiveness were preferred in the Mosquito. 

This report also strongly recommends discontinuance of production of the P-39Q, P-63, and P-40N, stating "they are not modern fighter aircraft". It also [then censored] reports the dismal performance of the P-59 with the Meteor. The Americans were to wait for the P-80.


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## Erich (Oct 30, 2006)

ah the posts in this thread have some inaccuricies but I am going to go back to what the poll mentioned. The Mossie XIII would of been nowhere superior to the later P-61B, had the poll mentioned the Mossie XXX then the tide would of turned to the Mossies favour.

forget the P-70 and the P38M never did fly operationaly as a night fighter according to US nf documentation, only after war in which the US nf units then were disbanded


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Oct 31, 2006)

Considering I only know the P-61 I'll go with that, but how good was the Mosquito?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 31, 2006)

You dont know the Mossie? That is almost scandulous.


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## k9kiwi (Oct 31, 2006)

For target practice whenever possible, so yes it was.


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## Erich (Oct 31, 2006)

sorry but you are going to have to explain that statement to me K9Kiwi


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## k9kiwi (Oct 31, 2006)

Erich

Never mind, I started work this morning at 0400, I got things out of context and out of place.


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## Erich (Oct 31, 2006)

no problemo I got about 3 hrs of sleep lat night and my posts probably do not make sense ..........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 1, 2006)

Same here. I was at a Holloween party last night and did not get home till real late. Pretty tired all day.


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## Erich (Nov 1, 2006)

I didn't do too bad with the Halloweenie kids and my 3 grand-daughters hanging all over me, just have a stupid allergy-head cold that I can't seem to get out of my system .....

cough, gag, choke


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## Plane Freak (Jul 10, 2007)

**** is every one here a NAZI


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## mosquitoman (Jul 10, 2007)

No, contrary to what you think nobody on here is a Nazi, in fact if a Nazi supporter was on this board, they would get banned as quickly as you will for insinuating that everyone was.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 11, 2007)

As he was banned, what a ****tard.


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## renrich (Sep 9, 2007)

The first deployment in combat of the F4U type by the US Navy in WW2 was aboard the Enterprise and they were F4U2s, a night fighter and armed with 4-20mm cannon. The F6F night fighter version was armed with 2-20mm cannon and 4-50 cal mgs, a formidable throw weight.


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## Glider (Sep 9, 2007)

I admit I thought that the F4U2 had 4 x 0.5HMG's not 4 x 20mm. The number of guns being reduced to save weight.


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## renrich (Sep 9, 2007)

Glider, I checked my references and you are mostly right as the F4U2 deleted one gun and had 5 50 cal mgs. The F4U1C had the 4-20mm cannon


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## Glider (Sep 9, 2007)

Thanks for the info, I will update my records. 
It sounds more like a space saving issue rather than weight. The Corsair isn't a lightweight and I find it hard to believe that the weight of one HMG would make a blind bit of difference to its performance or handling


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## renrich (Sep 10, 2007)

Maybe a weight and balance issue. The F4U5N did have the aforementioned 4-20 mms and the only US Navy ace of the Korean war flew it. His name was Bordeleon and he was obviously from Louisiana.


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## renrich (Sep 10, 2007)

Just finished a book about a SF A-team in Iraq and a fight against Iraqui T55s, APCs and assorted trucks where the US guys were outnumbered greatly. The SF guys had special Humvees with MaDeuces and the automatic 40mm grenade launchers. They were shooting up moving trucks at 800 yards with the M2s and killing ground troops in the open at over a thousnd yards with the M2s. I fired an M2 on the range at Fort Hood one time and am familiar with the ballistics of the 50 BMG round. When I see debates about the effectiveness of the 50 cals in WW2 against enemy AC I wonder whether we are not shortchanging the M2. Their were no aircraft in WW2 on any side any more robust than a deuce and a half and one 50 cal MG will tear up a deuce and a half with a few bursts. Imagine what happens to a WW2 AC if hit with say 100 rds of 50 BMGs at a range of 200 yards from 6-50s. Anyway, the M2 is a heavy hitter in combat on the ground.


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## SoD Stitch (Sep 10, 2007)

Well, I was going to protest the fact that the P-38M wasn't included, but I did some homework first and found out that it did, indeed, participate in several late-War (very late-War!) missions, but never saw any combat. So it did do some flying around, but never engaged any enemy aircraft. Too bad; it would've been nice to find out how effective it was.


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## Erich (Sep 10, 2007)

P-38M in what US night fighter units Sod ? In my data the P-38 in the standard day fighter fit was used , painted black then over to the Mossie/P-61, there was never a P-38 specialized nf ever used during the war.

4 P-61M's were sent to the 418th nfs in Jan./Feb. 1946 and then they were sent to the 421stnfs which flew a couple of sorties and then scrapped


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## kool kitty89 (Jan 14, 2008)

I don't know about the P-38M, but I did hear that about the F7F. (flew a hand-full of noncombat recon opps as well as some unevenful nightfighter sorties in the last couple months of the war) Similar to the 2 YP-80As stationed in the MTO.


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## LaLongeCarabine (Mar 4, 2008)

Wasn't there a night fighter of the P38?
I found this in a quick search.

Type: Single Seat Long Range Fighter
Origin: Lockheed
Models: XP-38 to P-38M, F-4 and F-5
First Flight: January 27 1939 (XP-38)
Service Delivery: June 8, 1941 (USAAC)
Combat Debut: August 1942
Final Delivery: September 1945
Total Produced: 9,942

NIGHT FIGHTER (P-38M)


The P-38M, known as the "Night Fighter," was equipped with a state-of-the-art radar system, (an AN/APS-4 AI radar pod mounted under the nose on a modified bomb pylon) which was operated by a guy crammed in behind the pilot under the bubble canopy. Learn all about the Night Fighters here. To see a "Night Fighter" model, click here.


DROOP SNOOT


The P-38J (so-called "Droop Snoot"), was typically the lead plane on level bombing missions. The Droop Snoot was equipped with a Plexiglas nose and (replacing the more well-known P-38 fire power of machine guns and cannon) an ultra-secret Norden bomb sight. The bombardier was in the nose. The original color scheme was olive-drab-over-gray camouflage, and was most often associated with the 8th AF in Europe -- although they were also flown in the CBI theater. "American Eagles" covers many of the P-38 variances, including the Droop Snoot.

I don't know how they were used but they were made.

JLK


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## Erich (Mar 4, 2008)

simple answer is : nope ! yes there are photos but it is after war when the pacific squads were doing ops over China. the standard P-38 without radar was used in darker day fighter camo


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## Burmese Bandit (Dec 5, 2008)

Mosquito!!!

Cheap, deadly, fast, accurate, and reliable...what's not to like???


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## Messy1 (Dec 9, 2008)

I went with the P-61. (Big surprise)

But am learning alot, interesting post.


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## koutsivtom (Apr 7, 2009)

P - 61!!!!That plane was designed for night fighter from the beginning.Well equiped,powerfull with 2 super engines of its time,advanced enginnering,with the first actually air radar!It was like a cadillac of the air.Far from its time,clearly......But unfortunatelly its value couldn't be clear because when it was appeared there wasn't any enemy......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 7, 2009)

koutsivtom said:


> P - 61!!!!That plane was designed for night fighter from the beginning.Well equiped,powerfull with 2 super engines of its time,advanced enginnering,with the first actually air radar!It was like a cadillac of the air.Far from its time,clearly......But unfortunatelly its value couldn't be clear because when it was appeared there wasn't any enemy......



The P-61 was not the first aircraft to use radar. It was the first *US* aircraft purposely built to use radar.

Plenty of aircraft used radar before the P-61 was built, including the:

Mossie
Ju 88
Bf 110


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## pbfoot (Apr 7, 2009)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The P-61 was not the first aircraft to use radar. It was the first *US* aircraft purposely built to use radar.
> 
> Plenty of aircraft used radar before the P-61 was built, including the:
> 
> ...


the Blenheim and Defiant


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## Glider (Apr 7, 2009)

pbfoot said:


> the Blenheim and Defiant



The Beaufighter, Do217 and even the Hurricane (in Burma)


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## Amsel (Apr 7, 2009)

The F4U-2 was a great nightfighter. It went on to become the F4U-5N which was used in the Korean War.


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## Night Fighter Nut (Nov 3, 2009)

I found this on a website that gave a little history of the night fighters. It appears there was a competition between the Widow and the Mossie. This is what was written as a result of that competition.

"To resolve the controversy, Lt. Gen. Carl A. Spaatz, Commander of United States Strategic Air Forces in Europe, ordered a July 5, 1944, flyoff at Hurn, England, pitting the P-61 directly against Vandenberg’s choice, the British Mosquito. Lt. Col. Winston W. Kratz, director of night fighter training in the United States, bet $500 that the Mosquito could outperform the Widow. According to the 422d NFS historian, the competing P-61, “tweaked” to get maximum performance, proved faster at all altitudes, “outturned the Mossie at every altitude and by a big margin and far surpassed the Mossie in rate of climb.” All in all, the historian noted, “a most enjoyable afternoon-Kratz paid off.” The official report concluded that the “P-61 can out-climb the Mosquito due to the ability of the P-61 to operate indefinitely at military power without overheating,” critical to closing on a bogey. "

Without being bias to any one aircraft, I think the two were very close in night fighting efficiency but the P-61 seems to be the winner between the two based on this account. It wouldn't, however, be the first time that people chose their favorite aircraft against all others no matter what the data.


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## Vincenzo (Nov 3, 2009)

Night Fighter Nut said:


> ” The official report concluded that the “P-61 can out-climb the Mosquito due to the ability of the P-61 to operate indefinitely at military power without overheating,” critical to closing on a bogey. "



idk on P-61 but on other fighters R-2800 can't operate indefinitely in military.


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## tomo pauk (Nov 3, 2009)

Hi,
What was the version of Mosquito that was pitted against Black Widow?


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## Messy1 (Nov 3, 2009)

Night Fighter, do you know the website you found that info on? Would like to read it myself as the Black Widow is my favorite plane too!


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## Sparbolt (Nov 3, 2009)

For the Allies, hands down , the P-61 Black Widow, speed , range, technical innovation, firepower, it had it all.


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## pbfoot (Nov 3, 2009)

Sparbolt said:


> For the Allies, hands down , the P-61 Black Widow, speed , range, technical innovation, firepower, it had it all.



and a very limited operational record , IIRC the top scoring USAAF night fighter ace named Harrington preffered the Mosquito over the P61 but then all his kills were in the Mossie


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## Hop (Nov 4, 2009)

> Without being bias to any one aircraft, I think the two were very close in night fighting efficiency but the P-61 seems to be the winner between the two based on this account. It wouldn't, however, be the first time that people chose their favorite aircraft against all others no matter what the data



There was a lot going on behind the scenes of that fly-off. 

Senior figures in the USAAF were concerned that the P-61 wasn't up to the job. They were pushing the British for more Mosquitoes. The problem was there weren't enough Mosquitoes to go round, and some RAF and USAAF squadrons were still using Beaufighters.

Meanwhile the US night fighter squadron in question had trained and equipped with the P-61 and wanted to show what they could do. So you had the USAAF pilots desperate to win and the RAF desperate to lose.

The Mosquito involved was an NF XVII. Despite the high mark number, the NF XVII was basically an early Mk II with radar.

Colonel Winston Kratz was director of night fighter training in the USAAF and helped organise the fly-off. He said:



> I'm absolutely sure to this day that the British were lying like troopers. I honestly believe the P-61 was not as fast as the Mosquito, which the British needed because by that time it was the one airplane that could get into Berlin and back without getting shot down. I doubt very seriously that the others knew better. But come what may, the '61 was a good night fighter. In the combat game you've got to be pretty realistic about these things. The P-61 was not a superior night fighter. It was not a poor night fighter. It was a good night fighter. It did not have enough speed


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## Messy1 (Nov 4, 2009)

I am inclined to believe the P-61 was no where near as fast as the Mosquito. The P-61 just had so much more bulk to move around.


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## Erich (Nov 4, 2009)

the Widow was not the NF that the US was hoping the Mossie XIX and XXX were truly the top of the line NF's for the Allies. the Widow proved itself overall as most probably the best intruder type armed with naphalm and bombs in the night ground attack role


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## 88l71 (Nov 20, 2009)

Hmmm...

I guess I'd vote for the Mosquito, as the P-61 didn't see enough action IMHO. Hellcat was basically a typical fighter type and they stuck a radar pod on the wing, early on the USN used a team of one radar equipped Avenger acting as a sort of fighter controller for two Hellcats, but experiments with this system were not successful, resulting in the death of the great "Butch" O'Hare by friendly fire. On the other hand, Hellcat/Corsair night fighters were necessary on USN carriers since they could not operate Mosquitoes or P-61's.


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## Loiner (Jan 8, 2010)

Seems a short list, what about the night fighting variants of the likes of Bf110 G, Ju88 R or the Beaughfighter MkI, all of which were a success.


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## Waynos (Jan 8, 2010)

Loiner said:


> Seems a short list, what about the night fighting variants of the likes of Bf110 G, Ju88 R or the Beaughfighter MkI, all of which were a success.





Not sure which allied air forces flew Bf110's or Ju 88's, but the Beaufighter, while an extremely worthy aircraft, is not going to be voted better than the Mosquito by anyone, is it? For the same reason I don't get why the Hellcat is in the poll alongside the P-61?


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