# P-61 Black Widow



## Viper (Jan 29, 2005)

The size of a medium bomber with a 20m wingspan, 15m long and it was a night fighter. With the tail boom design of like a p-38 the P-61c was capable of reaching 430mph. It had two massive 2800hp Horsepower R-2800-73 double row 18 cylinder radials. it had a range of 2800miles and could carry external fuel supplys.and was fairly manoverable for its size. It was heavily armed with four 20.mm cannons in a pod under the fusalage. there were also 2 50.calibers in a electic remote controled turret and were fired by the pilot. It could also carry 6400lbs of ordance.
They entered serivice in 1944 with the 18th fighter group in the pacific and had succes in the pacific as well as in Europe. 941 were produced + 35 F-15 high speed long range recon versions that were unarmed.
The P-61 originated with the Britesh need of a night fighter with onboard radar but some eto squads didnt convert from mossys or beaufighters to P-61's until the end of the war. In europe they not only were fighters but ground attack aircraft, strafing trains and convoys. This was probually one of the greatest night fighters maybe not as good as the mossy but comparable. 

What do you think about it


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## Viper (Jan 30, 2005)

heres some pics found by crazy


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## Erich (Jan 30, 2005)

correction there were 4 .50's in the upper turret removed by the 425th, 422nd. and the 418th in the ETO. The a/c was to big and heavy and was not suitable really as a fast night fighter but in the night ground attack it did quite well. I have a copy of the 422nd and 425th microfische and have been fortunate to interview several former members of the units one a CO living to my north some 150 miles.

care to debate I'm on for one..............

v/r

E ~


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 30, 2005)

I think the P-61 was a great aircraft...not as good as the P-38M though, but still great


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 30, 2005)

how can you prove this?? do you have any comparisons??


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 30, 2005)

It was kind of a joke...note the smiley at the end of the post...although I do think the M was the better plane, the P-61 was more successful though (obviously)


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## Cougar (Jan 30, 2005)

both are good


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2005)

Both were good aircraft. The P-61 was the better night fighter though.


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## toffigd (Feb 16, 2005)

The P-61 was the best night fighter. Tough, fast, heavily armed with good radar. Do it need anything more? Maybe well trained crew.


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## Medvedya (Feb 16, 2005)

I read that the rear perspex cone sometimes had a nasty habit of falling off in flight though.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2005)

I dont know much about that.


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 16, 2005)

It wasnt that fast either...361mph wasnt too good. That was one of the main reasons for development of the P-38M, which gcould do over 400mph.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 16, 2005)

this thing was used to chase down V-1s, she was more than fast enough..........


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## Erich (Feb 16, 2005)

P-38M should not even be included in a comparison with the P-61. the P-38M came after war in the Pacific. The ETO 422nd and 425th nfs did alright, not great agasint the V-1's. the Widow was not that hot either as a nf. ore suited to heavy payload delivery against German motor transport colums and road junctions. The case in point is the AI jammed on a regular basis, the crews identification was terrible as on one night alone they shot down 2 RAF transport a/c incluidng on anaother night at least 1 mossie maybe 2. The a/c had a hard time slowling down to intercept Ju 87D-5's on night ground attack and usually lost the slow mo cranker with a simple flick of the wings and dive into the haze.

E


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 17, 2005)

That is pretty much what I have read about the P-61. I always thought it was interesting looking aircraft but I never really liked it and always doubted how affective it was.


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## wmaxt (Feb 17, 2005)

One of the things it had were slats in place of alerons it had a roll rate equal or better than anything in the sky according to the AAF.

The turrets were not arodynamicly correct and caused a lot of problems and the speed was lower than desired which is why the P-38M was requested by the AAF


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## Erich (Feb 17, 2005)

From official US sources on the P-38NF.

The M did not come off the Lockheed Dallas production line till summer of 45 and it appears that the 547th nfs used P-38's for ground attack work. the 12 kills by P-38's were modified G series and day fighter P-38's in as transfers.

the M variant was used in the staes for night fighter training and at war's end most of them were dumped in the scrap pile. Only 4 Lockheed P-38M's made it to the Pacific theater and thse arrived after the cessation of hostilities. After being reassembled in the Phillipines they were tranferred to the 418th nfs in Japan. here they were used in january/February 1946, then the crews and a/c were assigned to the 421st nfs in Fukuoka japan. By march the project and the a/c were goping to the scrap yards.............


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## evangilder (Feb 17, 2005)

Thanks Erich, I thought I had read somewhere about night kills with the P-38, but not the NF version. Looks like you found the source!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 17, 2005)

He alwasy seems to be the man the man to find it.


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## hellmaker (Mar 21, 2005)

I always saw the P-61 Blackwidow as a night bomber...It's intresting you say it is a night fighter, did it have the manouvrability of a fighter or did it relly on the cover of darkness to engage it's victims... I know that it was one of the first planes to have an onboard radar which could have made it an effective night fighter but also a bomber... As a fighter it's strong point would have been the crew number(I'm guessing 5, this meaning 5 pears of trained eyes), giving it an advantage in spotting the enemy... My respect to the Widow...


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## Erich (Mar 21, 2005)

The P-61 was a big night fighter and it's best useage was as a night intruder dropping bombs, Napahlm and shooting up ground targets in the ETO and PTO theaters, a job that the a/c did well.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 21, 2005)

That it did. It was a robust aircraft but I dont think it would have faired well in a strictly fighter way and deffinatly not as a day fighter.


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## Erich (Mar 21, 2005)

The US Af did not have a night fighter except for borrowed RAF equipment and the P-61 was the answer to that


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## mosquitoman (Mar 21, 2005)

They had the P-70 which was a modified A-20 Boston/Havoc


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## Erich (Mar 21, 2005)

still not used as a night fighter but as a ground attack intruder. The A-20-P-70's of the 422nd were used in that role at low altitude to take out major cross sections of rail and MT traffic. Factory installations as well and the A-20 types were on the same field as the P-61A's and B's of the nf unit.


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## GT (Mar 21, 2005)

Update.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 21, 2005)

Didn't they try and make a night fighter P-38?


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## mosquitoman (Mar 21, 2005)

The P-70 was used as an interim nightfighter at Henderson Field, I remember a piece on it in Flypast magazine


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 21, 2005)

GT said:


> P-61 was arrying up to 4 50cal machine-guns and 4 20mm cannons, and that gave the P-61 a powerful punch and it was assigned to 16 Squadrons during the war.
> 
> Cheers
> GT



It is quite powerful.


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## Erich (Mar 21, 2005)

and the P-70 was the precussor of the P-61 whcih flew in the night time role.

there was no P-38 night fighter in the war. Day time P-38's were used to score a meagre 12 kills in the squadrons in the PTO.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 21, 2005)

No what I mean is didn't they play around with a night fighter version?


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## Erich (Mar 21, 2005)

yes they worked on fitting a radar nose or should say a radar bulb under the nose, painted all gloss black and a terible tight cockpit behind the pilot for the R/O. the a/c were sent to Japan after the war........

E


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 21, 2005)

however the fact that she was a good day fighter doesn't nessisarily mean she'd make a good nightfighter.........


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## GT (Mar 21, 2005)

Update.


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## Erich (Mar 21, 2005)

first mission by the 422nd was on July 4, 1944. 6 kills of V-1's in July . First a/c kill was a Ju 88 on the night of August 7/8, 1944.

42 kills, and additional 2 kills were RAF a/c and they also attacked two Mossie nf's in 1945.. last kill was a Ju 52 on the night of April 12/13, 1945.

As I mentioned earlier I was a friend of the US night fighter association before it's dissolvement.

Erich


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 21, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> however the fact that she was a good day fighter doesn't nessisarily mean she'd make a good nightfighter.........



Actually tests showed that the aicraft retained similar characteristics to the day fighters, with very little performance drop. The only problem was slightly cramped quarters for the radar operator. The "Night Lightning would probably have made a better NF than the Black Widow.


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## wmaxt (Mar 21, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> the lancaster kicks ass said:
> 
> 
> > however the fact that she was a good day fighter doesn't nessisarily mean she'd make a good nightfighter.........
> ...



This is true about the P-38. The one problem the P-38M had was the Turbos would glow cherry red and give it's position away.

The P-61 had some pretty major problems with both speed and with severe turbulance from the gun turrets that was never correctly fixed.


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 21, 2005)

The P-38M only had a speed drop of 8mph (414mph to 406mph) with all the added equipment.


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## Erich (Mar 21, 2005)

the 422nd and 425th nfs in the ETO jerked the .50 cal turret off the top of the fuselage as it was not needed to reduce drag. the overall problem was the training of the pilot and R/O to identify German night a/c. this was admitted to me by freinds in the 425th nfs. One a pilot and another a very reluctant CO Gilly Lewis who was also a pilot and a great guy and character. The R/O was moved from the rear of the a/c to sit right above the pilot in ETO P-61's.

True the Widow was a heavy beast and a few were shot down by German nf's as well as tail gunners from Ju 87D's - 2 confirmed and a He 177 rear gunner who was awarded the EK 1 for his action.

E ~


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 22, 2005)

The blackwidow was still more suited for the NF than a Lightning.


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## GT (Mar 23, 2005)

Update.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 23, 2005)

I think the thing, the mossie was just a more proven aircraft as she entered service sooner.


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## Erich (Mar 23, 2005)

The Mossie was superlative. Can tell you for a fact that no RAF crew was going to change over. There was American pride however and of course seeing this oversized black thing on the tarmac brought individual pride, it being quite menacing looking.

For December 44 the 422nd had 18 kills and the 425th nfs had 8. I have the official micorfische histories for both squadrons

The 425th nfs had 1 ace crew the 422nd had 3 ace crews.

E ~


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 23, 2005)

Oh I can believe that no Brit Mossie crews would ever give up there Mossie.


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## Erich (Mar 23, 2005)

my opinion but the Mossie XIX and XXX were far superior in every way.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 23, 2005)

I will agree with you on that also.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 24, 2005)

me too...........


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## pasoleati (Mar 24, 2005)

Disagree! I would pick the P-61C over any Mosquito any day.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 24, 2005)

hey it's your funeral............


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## evangilder (Mar 24, 2005)

The P-61C never saw combat. Pilots who flew the C said that while some of the performance was improved, the manueverability suffered because of the added weight. When it comes to allied nightfighters, the Mossie was the clear choice.


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## pasoleati (Mar 24, 2005)

evangilder said:


> The P-61C never saw combat. Pilots who flew the C said that while some of the performance was improved, the manueverability suffered because of the added weight. When it comes to allied nightfighters, the Mossie was the clear choice.



The weight difference was less than 10%. I doubt it affects anything substantially. Especially since power loading was better meaning the rate of turn must have been better!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 24, 2005)

it's wing loading that effects rate or turn more, and a 10% weight increase is allot...........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 24, 2005)

pasoleati said:


> evangilder said:
> 
> 
> > The P-61C never saw combat. Pilots who flew the C said that while some of the performance was improved, the manueverability suffered because of the added weight. When it comes to allied nightfighters, the Mossie was the clear choice.
> ...



10% is actually a whole lot, especially when it comes to climb rate and speed and overall maneuaverability. For example when we fly out Blackhawks without passengers we can typically reach a good climb rate (this is not max power stuff) of about 1000ft per min (which is about what you want to keep the passengers confortable), a speed of about 140 knots at about 68-70% power (much faster if we pull in 100% or more power), and we are quite maneuaverable. If we just put in 11 passengers that is not a whole lot of weight, it effects the center of gravity which effects the maneauverability we can still pull in about 1000ft but have to use more power and to reach 140 knots we have to pull in about 75-78% power. All because of a measly 1000lb of weight. Weight effects alot.


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## evangilder (Mar 24, 2005)

If you don't believe that the manueverability was effected, you haven't spoken with any pilots that flew them. This has been stated by many vets that flew them. It was never proven in combat either.

_Most pilots who flew the P-61C felt that the increase in weight made the aircraft a lot less maneuverable than the A or B versions. The service life of the P-61C was quite brief, since it was being quickly outclassed by jet aircraft. Most were used for test and research purposes. By the end of March 1949, most P-61Cs had been scrapped. Two went onto the civilian market and two others went to museums. _
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p61_4.html


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## GT (Mar 24, 2005)

Update.


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## pasoleati (Mar 24, 2005)

evangilder said:


> If you don't believe that the manueverability was effected, you haven't spoken with any pilots that flew them. This has been stated by many vets that flew them. It was never proven in combat either.
> 
> _Most pilots who flew the P-61C felt that the increase in weight made the aircraft a lot less maneuverable than the A or B versions. The service life of the P-61C was quite brief, since it was being quickly outclassed by jet aircraft. Most were used for test and research purposes. By the end of March 1949, most P-61Cs had been scrapped. Two went onto the civilian market and two others went to museums. _
> http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p61_4.html



These pilots claim "a lot less maneuverable". This IMHO means several tens of percent decrease in rate of roll and rate of turn. I seriously doubt it. 

And the Blackhawk example was a poor one. 1000 lbs in relation to its weight is wholly different ballgame than a 2000 lbs in relation to P-61´s weight.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 24, 2005)

pasoleati said:


> These pilots claim "a lot less maneuverable". This IMHO means several tens of percent decrease in rate of roll and rate of turn. I seriously doubt it.
> 
> And the Blackhawk example was a poor one. 1000 lbs in relation to its weight is wholly different ballgame than a 2000 lbs in relation to P-61´s weight.



Every little bit of weight effects the flying performance and characteristics. I am sorry but you are wrong if you dont believe it.


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## Erich (Mar 24, 2005)

lets make it very clear right now, the P-61C did not complete any combat ops during WW 2, so it needs to be negated and cannot be compared with any Allied or German WW twin engine a/c for a performance standard...........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 24, 2005)

Not trying to do so, just saying that weight will effect performance, even minimal weight.


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## evangilder (Mar 25, 2005)

pasoleati said:


> These pilots claim "a lot less maneuverable". This IMHO means several tens of percent decrease in rate of roll and rate of turn. I seriously doubt it.



You can choose to believe it or not, but these are people that actually flew the airplane. 

And Erich is correct, it was never flown in combat.


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## Gemhorse (Mar 25, 2005)

Erich is absolutely correct......I seriously dispute GT's stated ''P-61 vs Mosquito'' figures totally !! ...While the P-61 may have been powerful and well-armed, it was a wheelbarrow in comparison to the Mosquito, just check the weights for a start...In every book you care to read on WWII Nightfighting, you'll see the Mosquito as the best....If any aircraft came close to the Mosquito as a Nightfighter, it was the Ju-88G's....
The Mosquito Nightfighters started in the first week of 1942, gradually replacing the slower but still very effective Beaufighters, who had in turn replaced first the Defiants, the Blenheims, the Havocs with Turbinlites in concert with Hurricanes.....and the Mossies carried on in this role till well after WWII.

The only claim to fame the P-61 had, it was the first American purpose-built nightfighter...Germany had the world's first purpose-built nightfighter in the He-219, and they both couldn't match the Mosquito.....
Furthermore, guns in the nose as the P-61 and the P-38 for that matter, were near useless, as gunflash blinded the crew....All Beaufighters and Mosquito Nightfighters used only the 4x 20mm UNDER the nose, and that was bright enough....
The other factor was the US crews must've been inadequately trained in nightfighting in the P-61, as aircraft recognition was a very important aspect of this type of warfare, the night sky had hundreds of aircraft flying around, and both RAF and Luftwaffe crews were very careful in this, before they pressed the tit, and even then mistakes were sometimes made... Crews trained intensely to become adept at this craft, the pairing-up of pilot and R/O especially, where patience and timing was critical....
As far as claims went, they were suspect unless they were confirmed by gun-cameras and independent sources....When US pilots could include aircraft shot-up on the ground as a kill towards their 'ace' status, this was hardly fair.....What fascinates me was painting P-61's GLOSS black, which would reflect like hell at night...might have given it an extra 10 mph, but light reflection off the glass panels was bad enough....The British moved out of total matt black into top camo later in the War, and the Luftwaffe were very articulate with their camo.....Good try GT, I respect your patrotism, but if the P-61 had lost some weight, they may have had a bloody good NF then........


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## Erich (Mar 25, 2005)

Gem just to make it clear there was a run off between the Mossie and the P-61 to see which a/c the 422nd and 425th nfs was to take on. I think it was clearly decided even if the Mossie looked superior that the American pride was going to shine forth and the P-61A was going to be accepted regardless no matter what happeneed. the rest was history the two ETO units took on the P-61A and did their best with equipment that was run into the ground even with newer B's attached to their squadrons the paint coming off every single exposed part of the a/c. There were no new P-61's given after the older B's/no spare parts and the squadrons had to makeshift to keep the a/c running in the best condition possible till war's end.

E ~


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 28, 2005)

That I can believe.


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## Andrew (Mar 30, 2005)

hellmaker said:


> I always saw the P-61 Blackwidow as a night bomber...It's intresting you say it is a night fighter, did it have the manouvrability of a fighter or did it relly on the cover of darkness to engage it's victims... I know that it was one of the first planes to have an onboard radar which could have made it an effective night fighter but also a bomber... As a fighter it's strong point would have been the crew number(I'm guessing 5, this meaning 5 pears of trained eyes), giving it an advantage in spotting the enemy... My respect to the Widow...



The Bristol Blenheim Beaufighter were equiped with onboard radar in 1940 for nightfighting.


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## Andrew (Mar 30, 2005)

There were 4 American Nightfighter Units using the Beaufighter in Italy with the 12th ASC , these were the 414th, 415th, 416th 417th Nightfighter Squadrons, the 414th NFS received P61A,s on 20/12/1944, the 415th received it's first P61A's on 20/03/1945, and flew both Beaufighters P61's until the End of the war, the 416th received Mosquito's on 29/11/1944 and eventually receiving P61A's after VE Day, the 417th NFS received P61A's sometime after 20/07/1944.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 30, 2005)

I think the P-61 would be better suited as a night fighter then a day fighter.


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## mosquitoman (Mar 30, 2005)

It would get slaughtered during the day. It was quite manouverable but it had the same principle as the Beau- if something gets infront of it it's going down. If there were enemy planes behnd it, it didn't stand much of a chance


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## Piaggio108 (Mar 30, 2005)

The problems with the canopy exploding were with the YP-61 in high speed dives when the airflow over the canopy and tailcone caused lower outside pressure. Baugher says that it would implode, which would seem to be a mistake, but I may be mistaken about what would cause it. It was aparently fixed in the P-61A and later.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 30, 2005)

hey the beau was quite manouverable to you know, a very low wing loading...........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 30, 2005)

Here we go again


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 30, 2005)

my we're very anti-british tonight............


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## mosquitoman (Mar 31, 2005)

Yes but compared to a FW-190, a P-61 (or a Beau) would compare badly when it came to manouverability


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 31, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> my we're very anti-british tonight............



No not really, I just give credit to things wheather they were built by my country or not. If it was good it was good, and I dont have a problem admitting something was better then an aircraft built by my country.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 1, 2005)

my we're very anti-me this morning..........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 2, 2005)

No dont worry Lanc, I still love you!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 2, 2005)

aww thanks..........


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 2, 2005)

Get a room.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 2, 2005)

Are you paying? Wait a minute what am I saying?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 2, 2005)




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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 2, 2005)

I am slapping myself for writing that stuff now. AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 2, 2005)

it's ok you don't have to be ashamed of your love for me, it's perfectly natural allot of people feel love for me...........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 2, 2005)

Okay then.


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 5, 2005)

Strange neighbourhood you live in lanc...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 6, 2005)

Probably all guys.


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 6, 2005)

Or inbreds...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 7, 2005)

Or both!


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 7, 2005)




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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 7, 2005)

that'd be quite a trick........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 7, 2005)

I would not be suprised.


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 8, 2005)

Its compulsory for this area


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## Erich (Apr 8, 2005)

hate to be a hard nose but moderators can this page and the last 4-5 posts of the previous page be deleted ? this has tainted the forum thread....

v/r ~ E


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 8, 2005)

don't worry about people thinking you're a "hard nose" Erich, you're well respected on this forum and we need someone to get us back online or we'll never stop.........


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 8, 2005)

Yeah, so enough talk about gay inbreds!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 8, 2005)

don't talk about my neighbours like that........


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## Gemhorse (Apr 9, 2005)

Yeah, thanks for your reply to my earlier post Erich, gloss black paint on a Nightfighter has gotta be the worse choice, might as well left it unpainted...
I really applaud the Luftwaffe's choices of night camoflage, they obviously went to a lot of trouble to research what was effective, even through to painting the tail fin on some Ju-88G's to appear as if they were the earlier 'A' series...

IMHO, the US would have made a better choice if they had used the F7F Tigercat as a Nightfighter. This to me was an aircraft that would've been a complimentary NF to the Mosquito in the ETO, they did indeed convert 66 to F7F-2N's between Oct. 1944 and Aug. 1945, but they were assigned to VMF[N]-533 formed at Eagle Mountain Lake, Texas. This unit reached Okinawa on 14th Aug. 1945, the day before the surrender !....

If only they had sent more over in 1943 than the one the RAF RN tested at Farnborough back then, but the US seemed to dawdle alot with their new designs, and anything that needed extra developments usually got sent on to the Navy, then the Marines....valuable time was lost, considering the Tigercat's first flight trials occurred back in April 1940. One can only assume they didn't see it's terrific potential in Europe, ''if it's got wings n' wheels, it should go on a Carrier''...The P-61 was a better choice for the PTO, as it had great ground-attack and bombing potentials as well, but the F7F-2N should have gone to the ETO where it's contribution to lowering the Night Bombers attrition-rate would have been greatly appreciated........


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 10, 2005)

but the RAF would have been reuctant to use them whatever really, we had faith in the mossie and it wouldn't have been much help to us until 1944 at the earliest.........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 10, 2005)

Gemhorse said:


> Yeah, thanks for your reply to my earlier post Erich, gloss black paint on a Nightfighter has gotta be the worse choice, might as well left it unpainted...
> I really applaud the Luftwaffe's choices of night camoflage, they obviously went to a lot of trouble to research what was effective, even through to painting the tail fin on some Ju-88G's to appear as if they were the earlier 'A' series...



Believe it or not what we have found today with our helicopters is that all black at night is a terrible choice of camoflage and would be terrible for a night fighter also. All black makes the aircraft look like a black hole in the sky and the more it moves the more easily it is able to be picked out especially with a cloudy sky or with a clear sky showing lots of stars. The best choice actually is a pattern of greys to make it blend in with the actuall sky.


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## mosquitoman (Apr 10, 2005)

Hows about all black but little dots as "stars" to be a camouflage scheme?
You'd blend right in


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 10, 2005)

But the stars would be moving considerably faster than the other real stars...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 10, 2005)

it's a series of interlinked shooting stars, and a small fragment of one is hurtiling towards us, there, look, you can see the flame tailing behind it!!


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 10, 2005)

NF aces could then name their aircraft "Death Stars"


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 10, 2005)




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## mosquitoman (Apr 10, 2005)

If that was the case, give me a Mossie Mk100 (also called an X-Wing)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 11, 2005)

Interesting theory.


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## Gemhorse (Apr 12, 2005)

Yeah, but the Luftwaffe certainly had it right with those y gray-tone camoflages on Nightfighters, and I certainly believe it had alot to do with their good kill-rate against Bomber Command, for all our gunners' vigilance....From my own Army experience, all black isn't necessarily the best thing, depending on varying night conditions and terrain, but 'gloss black' is definately out!!....

Gemhorse


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 12, 2005)

hey gemmy where's the siggy??


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## Erich (Apr 12, 2005)

did you say grey tones ?

how about this with a RLM 76 blue base and green-violet welle pattern on a Ju 88G-6 in 1945


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## mosquitoman (Apr 12, 2005)

That must have taken ages to paint


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## Erich (Apr 12, 2005)

no actrually not with two guys and two machine sprayers. The scheme was for ground concealment but also in 1945 there were all RLM blue 76 Ju 88G-6's. Ace Martin "Tino" Becker flew one out of Stab IV./NJG 6


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## mosquitoman (Apr 12, 2005)

It's difficult to paint on a model, I know that much
The camuflage must have worked quite well


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## Erich (Apr 12, 2005)

Black undersdies in the matt finish was re-intorduced to some German craft for night ground attack missions at low altitudes in 1945. RLM 76 with Grey-violet blotches on Bf 110G-4's and Ju 88G-1's and later G-6's was standard fit for 1944 through war's end.

E ♪


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## Gemhorse (Apr 12, 2005)

Yeah, sorry there Lanc, it was a 'quick reply'.....

I reckon they wouldn't have taken that long to paint, these paint schemes on the Nf's....I'm a qualified Auto Refinisher besides being a Signartist, and one just reduces the spray-fan nozzle from it's usual oblong pattern, down to a round one, then it's just a matter of the distance of the spray-gun from the surface that's being painted....for that pattern, it's a 'swiggly' movement keeping the gun moving all the time....for a blotch pattern, it's just a series of very quick squirts, blotch, blotch, blotch, and one can create it with different colours....

The Germans were really into colours, as Erich's pointed-out, their 'lozenge' pattern has had a rebirth down here lately, they had a big Airshow recently down in the South Island of WWI fighters, something like 5 Fokker Triplanes and others, including the British ones, all flying around in mock dogfights, and those lozenge pattern colours were simply amazing to see....some can actually be very hard to see at a distance against the ground, a fact they later employed with success in WWII.....

To do the NF camo on a model, by brush it's best to have it loaded, then wipe-off most of it on a cloth so it's sort-of more a 'dry-brush', then blotch, blotch etc., and the effect of a dry-brush gives a soft edge around the blotch....If you have an airbrush, crank the pressure and the jet right down, and for the blotch, it's a very light, quick squirt, and for squiggles, keep it moving in tight squiggle patterns, it's a trick of the right jet-down of the spray and the distance from the model's surface that will define the 'fluffy-edged' effect....- It's years since I've done models, but it was my favourite part, right down to dry-brushing exhaust and gun stains with matt black, and little dashes of gray to denote flaking paint on a 'well-used' fighter....Won a prize for it once !!......Thinking of getting back into it sometime, maybe 1/48th scale....Any of you guys into models ???

Love the pic, Mossy, it looks like that is the last Mosquito flying, RR299, that unfortunately crashed in 1996...I'm also actually using that very same lettering style [Magneto] on a Chemist shop at present, but in a handpainted gold-chrome finish....Magneto looks very much like the style used in Car-names that were made out of chrome during the '50's and '60's, that they put around on the vehicles....


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## mosquitoman (Apr 13, 2005)

Have a look at the Model kits thread, I've got 46 around my room (mainly RAF)
Thanks for the info on that Mossie, I didn't know there was one flying then- any plans to restore it or not?
I find those camoflage schemes difficult, I prefer RAF Coastal Command colours


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 13, 2005)

Ive recently got into modelling, 4 models complete, one half finished and about 4 ready and waiting. I decided today that im going to get every Italian plane in 1:72 form. and have my very own RA 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 13, 2005)

yes and use it to fight my RAF model collection


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 13, 2005)

You'll be obliterated


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## mosquitoman (Apr 13, 2005)

Take it up against my collection, you won't stand a chance (okay I could do with a few mor efighters but "the bomber alweays gets through") I have tanks and a ship in 1:72 aswell


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 13, 2005)

Bah! No match for my starship Enterprise model!


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## mosquitoman (Apr 13, 2005)

I have an airfield so my planes can land, refuel and rearm!
Beat that


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 13, 2005)

Do they have phasers? Huh?


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## mosquitoman (Apr 14, 2005)

No, I've got 2 Mk XVIII Mossies though, they'll blow anything out the sky


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 14, 2005)

Great info on NF schemes there Erich. And yeah they are hard to paint though on models. I am going to try and paint one like that pic you posted sometime.


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 14, 2005)

The Camo on Italian planes is very hard to paint. Actually not so much, hard, but very time consuming. Id like to build a CANT Z.1007 to compliment my SM.79


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 14, 2005)

i've never seen a model of one though..........


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 14, 2005)

Me neither but someone, somewhere is bound to make one.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 14, 2005)




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## cheddar cheese (Apr 14, 2005)

Why is that funny?


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## mosquitoman (Apr 14, 2005)

4 items found for CANT Z.1007 in Air 

Add to Favorites 




List View | Picture Gallery Sort by: Time: ending soonestTime: newly listedPrice: lowest firstPrice: highest firstDistance: nearest firstPayment: PayPal firstPayment: PayPal last Customize Display 

Item Title PayPal Price Bids Time Listed 
Supermodel Cant.Z.1007 bis Complete $9.95 
- Apr-13 12:36 

SUPERMODEL CANT Z 1007 bis ALCIONE 1/72nd $22.98 
- Apr-10 14:33 

SUPERMODEL CANT Z 1007 bis BIDERIVA 1/72nd $22.98 
- Apr-10 14:32 

(265)CRDA Cant Z 1007 Bis Alcione Monoderiva 1/72 $19.99 
- Apr-09 12:53 


Use the checkboxes and click the Compare button to compare items side-by-side. 


Try these CC


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 14, 2005)

the fact you actually believe it's true...........


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 14, 2005)

Wow, thanks MM! 8)

Just proved you wrong, hasnt it lanc...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 14, 2005)

damn............


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## Gemhorse (Apr 14, 2005)

Yeah, you're quite right CC, the Italians also put alot of effort detail into their camo schemes......

I must've made 30 - 40 1/72 models years ago, but had to give them away to my cousins when I was 16.....I'm becoming very interested in starting again in 1/48th scale, it will be great assistance for my Aviation Art hobby, as this scale is quite comprehensive these days.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 15, 2005)

Damn I have to start building models again.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 15, 2005)

right then men, i wanna see those lancaster models cleaned and polished and ready for inspection on the double!!


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 15, 2005)

I have a B-29 to make first...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 15, 2005)

right then, are any of you other low lives going to feed me crap and in doing so join CC in a lecture on the beauty of the lancaster??

men, i want to see those models!!


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## mosquitoman (Apr 15, 2005)

I've got one but I've got no pics


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 16, 2005)

Before I get back to building WW2 models I have to build a Blackhawk model first. I got a really good 1:32 scale one that is very detailed and I am going to make it like my aircraft and put it on a diarama as if it were in Iraq.


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 17, 2005)

That should look great when its finished! Good luck with it. 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 17, 2005)

If I dont screw it up.


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 17, 2005)

I nearly finished my Komet, just have to add the transfers. Models instantly look 10 times better once the transfers are applied.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 17, 2005)

this is useless men, where are those lancaster models!!

and sorry i wasn't on yesterday or today, had a ten tors walk and man that was heavy rain, and i've come back to 407 posts...........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 18, 2005)

Make a thread for it Lanc and maybe youll see some.


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## Vahe Demirjian (Dec 29, 2019)

If anyone is familiar, there was a reconnaissance version of the P-61 Black Widow called the F-15 Reporter, which had an elongated nose for housing spy cameras like that of the reconnaissance P-38 Lightning (F-5) and P-80/F-80 Shooting Star (F-14, later FP-80/RF-80). The "F" letter meant photo reconnaissance because before the USAAF became the USAF in September 1947, "F" denoted reconnaissance aircraft (after 1948, "F" was replaced for "R" for reconnaissance planes when the USAF ordered the use of the "F" letter for fighters as it broke with past policy of classifying fighters as pursuit planes rather than simply fighter planes). Just 36 F-15s were built, but they were vital in aerial reconnaissance over Korea during the Korean War.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
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