# Hypothetical: Gregory Boyington vs Erich Hartmann



## P-40K-5 (Jun 30, 2011)

in a Hypothetical DogFight between Boyington in a F4U-1A and Hartmann in
a Bf109G-10, who do you think would win? or would they, as I think... both
end up bailing out?


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 30, 2011)

What speed, altitude, aircraft fuel loads and more importantly, who sees who first?


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## Trilisser (Jun 30, 2011)

How about a compelety even scenario with neither having tactical advantage, i.e. both would be flying side by side and the combat would begin on order...Just like in a real man to man duel.


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## davebender (Jun 30, 2011)

Experienced pilots avoid that scenerio whenever possible. Boyington will extend away from the fight using the superior diving ability of his F4U. Hartmann will evade the fight using the superior climb of his Me-109G.


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## Lighthunmust (Jun 30, 2011)

davebender said:


> Experienced pilots avoid that scenerio whenever possible. Boyington will extend away from the fight using the superior diving ability of his F4U. Hartmann will evade the fight using the superior climb of his Me-109G.



When they eventually turned into the attack, I suspect Hartmann would soon realize why Japanese pilots in aircraft with 4 or fewer guns did not like facing six .50 cals spewing many more projectiles, in a larger pattern, directed at their faces, and from an aircraft providing much more pilot protection from frontal attack. Hartmann would be wise to refuse a frontal attack.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 30, 2011)

Well lets see...

As Joe has already pointed out, there are just too many factors involved. Speed, Altitude, Position, etc.

So before this turns into the Luftwaffe Fan vs. US Fan, the winner would be the pilot that would have the advantage of surprise. The one who did not see the other will get it.


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## P-40K-5 (Jun 30, 2011)

head-on, about a mile apart, both flying around 350mph, 10000ft altitude, they both no each-other is there. 
they both know the armament of each others mounts. no surprises.


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## Lighthunmust (Jun 30, 2011)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Well lets see...
> 
> As Joe has already pointed out, there are just too many factors involved. Speed, Altitude, Position, etc.
> 
> So before this turns into the Luftwaffe Fan vs. US Fan, the winner would be the pilot that would have the advantage of surprise. The one who did not see the other will get it.



As the originator of the thread specified they are going to dogfight so there cannot be any surprise because if either of these skilled pilots caught the other napping it would become a permanent nap before a dogfight began. Hartmann in a 109, Boyington in a Corsair, Hartmann in a Corsair, Boyington in a 109 the result would be the same in a surprise attack. If P-40K-5's scenario could be conducted 100 times I think Hartmann being a more disciplined pilot would likely win more than 50 times unless he foolishly made mostly frontal attacks.


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## Lighthunmust (Jun 30, 2011)

And there you go. Details provided. You were too quick on the draw for me P-40K-5.


P.S. Another detail to consider is that Boyington's combat experience was with very good to average enemy pilots flying aircraft that his Corsair outclassed in almost every parameter. While Hartmann also had this experience he also had experience in combat against the best pilots flying the best planes the Allies had. Again I say Hartmann prevails more than 50% of the time regardless of if he is flying a 109 or F4U.


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## Coors9 (Jun 30, 2011)

Didn't our 109 driver say most of his kills , they never saw him coming. That's smart combat. Personally, I'd compare the two to football. One's the QB/reciever type and the other is on the line or tight end. They all do a great job, just one' clean, one's dirty. I can't see a clear winner. Maybe pure luck would decide this one.


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 30, 2011)

Didn't the Bf 109's 20mm cannons have a greater range then the P-40/F4U .50 Cal MGs?


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## renrich (Jun 30, 2011)

Depends on whether Boyington had too much to drink the night before. How about Joe Foss versus Hartmann in the same AC? As far as trajectory is concerned the 50 cals probably shoot flatter than the 20 mms. The Corsair is probably faster than the ME at all altitudes. The ME can climb faster and can maybe turn better. The Corsair is faster in dive and can roll better. Depending on fuel state, the Corsair can wait until the ME runs out of gas?


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 1, 2011)

Coors9 said:


> Didn't our 109 driver say most of his kills , they never saw him coming. That's smart combat. Personally, I'd compare the two to football. One's the QB/reciever type and the other is on the line or tight end. They all do a great job, just one' clean, one's dirty. I can't see a clear winner. Maybe pure luck would decide this one.


 


vikingBerserker said:


> Didn't the Bf 109's 20mm cannons have a greater range then the P-40/F4U .50 Cal MGs?


 


renrich said:


> Depends on whether Boyington had too much to drink the night before. How about Joe Foss versus Hartmann in the same AC? As far as trajectory is concerned the 50 cals probably shoot flatter than the 20 mms. The Corsair is probably faster than the ME at all altitudes. The ME can climb faster and can maybe turn better. The Corsair is faster in dive and can roll better. Depending on fuel state, the Corsair can wait until the ME runs out of gas?


 
My take on Boyington from reading his autobiography, Frank Walton the VMF 214 Intel Officer’s book, and other sources, is that Boyington was a great inspirational leader like Douglas Bader, but not necessarily a great administrator or tactician. He was a good pilot but not necessarily a great pilot. He was certainly a man with no qualms about stretching the truth, a sometime irresponsible drinker, and not necessarily self-disciplined in combat. In short he was a great guy to rally the gang, walked the walk but frequently just talked the talk, and was prone to erratic performance on the ground and in the air. I think a great amount of Boyington’s success it due to being a good pilot and more importantly a deliberate killer flying against well piloted inferior aircraft.

My take on Hartmann is he was a much more consistent, methodical, self-disciplined, business like fighter pilot.

My take on Joe Foss, who I actually spoke to on occasion in the 1970s when he used to hangout at Don's Sport Shop in Scottsdale, is that he would be a far more dangerous adversary for Hartmann and for all the reasons that Boyington would not be and all the reasons Hartmann was. Joe did in a Wildcat what Boyington did in a Corsair!

I took a quick look at the spiffy thread on guns vs cannon in the weapon systems section of the forum. I am talking about the one with the diagrams of centerline armament vs wing armament firing patterns. I do not agree with much of the conclusions. I think the author and others who have written about the subject are grossly underestimating the inaccuracy of fighter pilots trying to hit targets simultaneously moving in multiple directions from an aircraft doing the same. All the great charts and graphs from multiple sources all seem to be based on an ideal situation when the target is perfectly aligned with the gun’s zero and is stationary long enough to absorb the entire burst of projectiles. This almost never happens. With ranges greater than “aircraft fills the windshield” a couple of factors don’t seem to get mentioned much. One is that few people shoot skeet with rifles and the target is not actually where you see it. It is a great deal easier to hit with many sufficiently destructive projectiles flying in a larger dense pattern than it is to hit with far fewer very destructive projectiles flying in a very smaller less dense pattern. When looking at a fighter through a optically distorting even if flat windshield, over a hot engine cowling, through a moving propeller, and across hundred of yards of light refracting air; where you see the aircraft and where it actually is are somewhat different. All of these things and more make a fighter without the benefit of a radar ranging gunsight firing a larger and denser pattern of sufficiently destructive projectiles as effective and probably more effective than one firing narrow less dense patterns. 

Does one German 20mm or 30mm have greater destructive range? I don’t think so in realistic situations and maybe not even in ideal conditions compared to 6 HMG. I do think that with two aircraft making head on attacks on each other a 3 gun centerline armament will require just as much accuracy from the pilot as a 6 gun wing armament if not more. The dispersion of 6 HMG in the wings can compensate for a lack of perfect aim. Considering all the Russian pilots who thought as few as 2 heavy machine guns were enough to bring down a Me-109 at close range I think 6 and 8 at longer ranges more than sufficient.

I think the ME-109G-10 version with the 1,850hp DB605 would be as fast or faster than the F4U-1 specified in the thread scenario. The ME-109 will be a smaller and harder to hit target. The ME-109 cannon if accurately fired for even a quarter of a second can end the engagement. The best tactic for the Corsair pilot may indeed be to “wait until the ME runs out of gas”. The second best tactic may be forcing head on attacks. One .50cal hole out of hundreds of bullets fired kills a pilot or drains away all coolant from the Messerschmitt. The Messershmitt will also run out of ammunition before the Corsair. 

I still think regardless of who is flying what aircraft that Hartmann prevails more than 50% of the time against Boyington. Against Foss 50/50.


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## billswagger (Jul 1, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> head-on, about a mile apart, both flying around 350mph, 10000ft altitude, they both no each-other is there.
> they both know the armament of each others mounts. no surprises.


 
At that height and speed, the F4U has the advantage.
The logic reads like this.
F4U out turns Fw190.
Fw190 out turns 109.
therefore...F4U out turns the 109.

The only real advantage of the 109 is climb.
Otherwise, i think the duel would be reminiscent of a P-47/109 match up, except the F4U was said to be much more maneuverable. Less weight, and similar power.

I think the 109 would have its hands full other than in a vertical battle. 

Armament??
I don't think it matters much, ultimately it would come down to tactics.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 1, 2011)

Lighthunmust said:


> dogfight



Oops missed that somehow...


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## norab (Jul 1, 2011)

I think a much fairer match would be to put both in the same plane, say a Ki-84 that neither was familar with


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## davebender (Jul 1, 2011)

Nothing wrong with that. Experienced pilots employ tactics that utilize their aircrafts best performance features. Erich Hartmann will fight a vertical battle if he has a choice. Gregory Boyington will avoid such a battle if he has a choice.


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 1, 2011)

davebender said:


> Nothing wrong with that. Experienced pilots employ tactics that utilize their aircrafts best performance features. Erich Hartmann will fight a vertical battle if he has a choice. Gregory Boyington will avoid such a battle if he has a choice.


 
Dave I am sure you are more knowledgeable about the ME-109G series than me. Would the G-10 really only have the advantage in the vertical? I'll check again, but I thought the early F4U-1 did not really have any speed advantage on the G-10. P-40K-5 where are you? I know you are very knowledgeable about Messerschmitt 109 versions.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 1, 2011)

Bf109G-10

Powerplant: DB605D rated at 2000hp @ takeoff
Max. Speed: 452mph @ 19685ft
Max. Range: 400 miles
Weight: *6158lbs*
Armament: Mk108 cannon two 13mm MG131 machine guns

also for the other poster, Erich Hartmann wouldn't just fly around while Gregory waited for him to
run out of fuel.


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## Thorlifter (Jul 1, 2011)

After reading the previous threads, my opinion is that, all things being equal (altitude, speed, time of day, etc) is I would give the edge to Hartmann. And that pains me to say as I am a living mark for the Corsair, Boyington, and the Black Sheep.


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## Juha (Jul 1, 2011)

I cannot resist to be a bit iconoclastic
Hypothetically say WO “Illu” Juutilainen or Capt. Olli Puhakka vs Hartmann, both flying 109G-6, conditions as in message #7.
I’d say that odds would have been against Hartmann, IMHO both Finns were better pilots and better shots than Hartmann. Illu also being a big powerful man, which would be a bonus at 350mph.

IMHO for ex Rall (exceptionally good in deflection shooting) or Lipfert (a bit duellist and a pilot who knew more than a couple tricks to ooze a bit more from his 109) would have been more dangerous opponents in a pure duel than Bubi.

Juha


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## Juha (Jul 1, 2011)

billswagger said:


> At that height and speed, the F4U has the advantage.
> The logic reads like this.
> F4U out turns Fw190.
> Fw190 out turns 109.
> therefore...F4U out turns the 109.


 
In fact both German and Soviet tests indicated that 109G turned better than 190A

Juha


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 1, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> Bf109G-10
> 
> Powerplant: DB605D rated at 2000hp @ takeoff
> Max. Speed: 452mph @ 19685ft
> ...


 
Your speed and horsepower figures look to be more in line with what the "K" had and little high for a G-10.

From three sources I checked I get the following:

"Aircraft in Profile V5" article by J.R. Smith and I. Primmer - ME-109G-10 with DB605B and MW-50 = 428 mph at 25,000 feet with climb to 20,000 feet in 6 minutes, Endurance 55 minutes, Range 360 miles

"Great Book of Fighters" by Green and Swanborough - ME-109G-10 with DB605D = 1850hp, 426 mph at 24,280

"The Great Book of WWII Airplanes" article by Robert Grinsell - ME-109G-10 with DB605D with MW50 = 1,850 hp at takeoff. This book also mentions that due to Allied raids "a formalized standard Bf109G-10 was never achieved". So perhaps a few were as fast as your figures.

All sources list armament as one 20mm and two 12.7s or one 30mm and two 12.7s as “standard” armament.



Thorlifter said:


> After reading the previous threads, my opinion is that, all things being equal (altitude, speed, time of day, etc) is I would give the edge to Hartmann. And that pains me to say as I am a living mark for the Corsair, Boyington, and the Black Sheep.



When I was a little boy my Grandmother who was a pilot told me bedtime stories about The Flying Tigers, The Black Sheep, and Pappy Boyington. He is a sentimental favorite of mine also. My critical opinions of him in no way reduce my respect for his accomplishments. I even watched that ridiculous TV show in prime time and later reruns because I am such a sentimentalist. 



Juha said:


> I cannot resist to be a bit iconoclastic
> Hypothetically say WO “Illu” Juutilainen or Capt. Olli Puhakka vs Hartmann, both flying 109G-6, conditions as in message #7.
> I’d say that odds would have been against Hartmann, IMHO both Finns were better pilots and better shots than Hartmann. Illu also being a big powerful man, which would be a bonus at 350mph.
> 
> ...



I would greatly appreciate any elaboration you could make as my knowledge of Finnish pilots is lacking other than a general knowledge that they were as good as any. I agree that while Hartmann had the most victories that does not make him the most dangerous adversary.



Juha said:


> In fact both German and Soviet tests indicated that 109G turned better than 190A
> 
> Juha


 
If I am interpreting the charts in AHT correctly the F4U-1 did not have any speed or climb advantages over the ME-109G-10. I am getting tired of typing so if any one wants to post specifics, thank you.


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## Juha (Jul 1, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> Bf109G-10
> 
> Powerplant: DB605D rated at 2000hp @ takeoff
> Max. Speed: 452mph @ 19685ft
> ...


 
Hello
IIRC 109G-10 had DB605DB engine T/O power 1850hp max speed 690km/h (429mph)
Your figures seems to be identical to those of 109K-4 with DB 605ASC or DC with 1,92ata (C3+MW50)

Juha


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## Juha (Jul 1, 2011)

Hello Lighthunmust
Ilmari "Illu" Juutilainen
pre-war regular NCO pilot, 94 kills, 437 combat sorties, known to be very good pilot, superb situation awarness, good shot.

Olli Puhakka
pre-war reserve pilot, 46 kills, 401 combat sorties, known to be exceptionally good pilot and good shot.

Kills are what they are credited for, as for every very succesful pilots the real number of victories is lower, Puhakka's figure is probably nearer to the real one than that of Juutilainen's.

Juha


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 1, 2011)

Juha said:


> Hello Lighthunmust
> Ilmari "Illu" Juutilainen
> pre-war regular NCO pilot, 94 kills, 437 combat sorties, known to be very good pilot, superb situation awarness, good shot.
> 
> ...


 
I would like to purchase a book on Finnish pilots and the aircraft they flew. Can you recommend one that is in English?


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## Juha (Jul 1, 2011)

Lighthunmust said:


> I would like to purchase a book on Finnish pilots and the aircraft they flew. Can you recommend one that is in English?


 
On memoirs translated in English
my favourite is Eino Luukkanen’s one, but the English edition is old and probably difficult to find, was the publisher MacMillian?
Juutilainen’s memoirs is also good and they took a new edition of it maybe some 10 years ago, its title was IIRC “The double Knight”.
If you want to know the claims and the basic info on claimants, Kalevi Keskinen’s and Kari Stenman’s Ilmavoitot / Aerial Victories osa 1 and 2 are a good bi-language (Finnish and English) sources.
For a day-to-day combat history, try Kalevi Keskinen’s and Kari Stenman’s Suomen Ilmavoimat
Vol II 1928-40 covers Talvisota/the Winter War, The Continuation War is covered in Vols III-VI, each volume covers one year, Vol III 1941 and Vol VI 1944 are the most action packed, also bi-language books, lots of good quality photos, daily info also from Soviet side but clearly more sparsely than from Finnish side.

Juha


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## renrich (Jul 1, 2011)

Bf 109G10 from "Aircraft of World War II" by Kenneth Munson- Engine:One- 1800 HP (with boost) DB 605D
Weight empty-4330 lb
Weight loaded-7700 lb
Vmax 428 mph at 24,250 feet
Service ceiling 41200
Normal range 350 miles
Armament- one 30 mm cannon and two13 mm mg
According to my sources the 109G10 did not go into production until April, 1944. In which case, it should be matched with the F4U1D which was more powerful than the F4U1A and had a Vmax(combat power) of 425 mph.
The fact is that in WW2 a good pilot in a decent fighter, who is aware of his attacker, can avoid a successful gunnery run as long as he is physically capable of flying his plane. Reference Saburo Sakai when toward the end of the War, with one eye, avoided in a Zeke, numerous Hellcats. He could not shoot them but neither could they shoot him. If the Corsair pilot wants to he can evade until the Me has to go away for lack of fuel. On the other hand, since the Corsair is much more rugged and damage resistant than the Me, the Me pilot must avoid at all costs getting in the way of the six fifties. I expect it would be a draw, but otherwise the breaks would determine the winner.


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## Juha (Jul 1, 2011)

Hello
Bf 109G-10 production began in Oct 44, Apr 44 was planned at first but because of DB 605D series engines were late, the beginning of production of G-10 was delayed. G-10 had normally 1 x20mm + 2x13mm and the U4 subtype had 1x30mm + 2x13mm. /R6 Rüstsatz was possible (2 gondola mounted MG151/20s)

Juha


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## pinsog (Jul 1, 2011)

renrich said:


> Bf 109G10 from "Aircraft of World War II" by Kenneth Munson- Engine:One- 1800 HP (with boost) DB 605D
> Weight empty-4330 lb
> Weight loaded-7700 lb
> Vmax 428 mph at 24,250 feet
> ...


 
Excellent post. I believe this sums it up.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 1, 2011)

haha yup grabbed the K specs.. no matter.. anyways some of you are to fixated on the planes.. this
is more about the pilots. I feel Boyington is MORE likely to make a mistake, which will cost him. then
again, his (gregory's) unorthidox flying style might be an advantage.. then yet again, Hartmann has 
probably seen all the tricks in the book. 

one thing I know for sure, one can toss around the Bf109 like nobodies buisness. 

Hartmann knew where to shoot to, he started at the engine followed down to the cockpit.
his prefered method. Boyington just opened up the 50cals.. knowing any hits anywhere on a
jap plane would be brutal. less precise, but effective on his enemies.

two very different flying styles, in relativly simular performing planes..


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 1, 2011)

renrich said:


> Bf 109G10 from "Aircraft of World War II" by Kenneth Munson- Engine:One- 1800 HP (with boost) DB 605D
> Weight empty-4330 lb
> Weight loaded-7700 lb
> Vmax 428 mph at 24,250 feet
> ...


 
Pilot vs Pilot I still think Hartmann wins more often regardless of whether he is in a ME-109 or F4U1-D.

All things considered if it was my neck on the line I would not hesitate in choosing the Corsair as my mount. It brings so much more to the fight than just pure flight performance.

On this forum there is much written about cannon vs gun and centerline guns vs wing guns. In forty years of reading I cannot immediately recall any American pilots complaining about the accuracy and effectiveness of 6 or 8 HMG in the wing.


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 1, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> .. this is more about the pilots. I feel Boyington is MORE likely to make a mistake, which will cost him. then again, his (gregory's) unorthidox flying style might be an advantage.. then yet again, Hartmann has
> probably seen all the tricks in the book.



Roger that.


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## Juha (Jul 1, 2011)

Hello Lighthunmust
Luukkanen's memoirs
Luukkanen, Eino. Fighter Over Finland: the Memoirs of a Fighter Pilot. London: Macdonald Company Ltd.., 1963. (Reprinted 1980 by Arno Press, NY as ISBN 0-405-12191-1. and in 1989 by Time-Life, NY as ISBN 0-80949-620-8.)


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 1, 2011)

Juha said:


> On memoirs translated in English
> my favourite is Eino Luukkanen’s one, but the English edition is old and probably difficult to find, was the publisher MacMillian?
> Juutilainen’s memoirs is also good and they took a new edition of it maybe some 10 years ago, its title was IIRC “The double Knight”.
> If you want to know the claims and the basic info on claimants, Kalevi Keskinen’s and Kari Stenman’s Ilmavoitot / Aerial Victories osa 1 and 2 are a good bi-language (Finnish and English) sources.
> ...


 


Juha said:


> Hello Lighthunmust
> Luukkanen's memoirs
> Luukkanen, Eino. Fighter Over Finland: the Memoirs of a Fighter Pilot. London: Macdonald Company Ltd.., 1963. (Reprinted 1980 by Arno Press, NY as ISBN 0-405-12191-1. and in 1989 by Time-Life, NY as ISBN 0-80949-620-8.)


 
Thank you Juha. I will look for them. By the way last night I ordered "Finland's Chosen War" based on the recommendation of Forum member from Finland, Trilisser.


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## renrich (Jul 1, 2011)

I don't know what kind of mistake an experienced pilot like Boyington could make that could get him shot down but anything is possible. Hartmann is going to have to use energy tactics probably so all Boyington has to do is be aware of Hartmann and ruin his shot. Both fighters are going to have to use a lot of power which means a lot of fuel which means that Hartmann is going to have to make it quick. If he closes with Boyington then the advantage goes to the Corsair. From what I have read about Hartmann, his tactics were to get so close the defender filled his windshield and then shoot. I don't think he was as good a gunner as, for instance, Marseille. With the probably better climb of the Me and better acceleration the option of getting out probably lies with Hartmann so he will be cautious in order to live to fight another day. Not sure that Boyington would be as cautious. He is in the tougher airplane, battle damage wise and knows he would have to work hard to pull the wings off a Corsair so he can try almost any maneuver. Probably the Corsair is the better gun platform and it is a superb and very steady diver and can roll very well, at least as well as the FW190. 

This match reminds me of mock dogfights that Bob Johnson flew against Spits in early P47s before the paddle blade props.


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## jim (Jul 1, 2011)

Helmut Lipfert in his book reports that during morning weather reconaicanse missions faced experienced russians pilots and enganged in 45 minutes dogfights . The wingmen were sent above and the leaders fought 1-1 . He concluded that it was almost impossible for anyone to score no matter what aircraft was flying. An experienced pilot can always defend himself effectively if not surprised or greatly outnumbered .
Having said that i believe Bf 109 was more suitable for classic dogfight than F4U-1 .Better speed,climb,turning but most importantly better acceleration.
About Eric Hartmann . He was not the most talented , not the absolutly best shot, not the best tactitian , not the best eyesight , not the best pilot, not the physicaly strongest, not the luckiest. But in all categories was very good and being very disciplined and lucky stayed alive to fight long enough (1400 missions!) to surpass every other ace. But in my opinion , while he is famous for what he did during the war , he is great for what he did after the war.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 1, 2011)

Jim,

I agree, except I think Hartmann was a brilliant tactician. he must be. never got shot down by an enemy a/c and never lost
a wingman. he had to think about himself, his wingman, the enemy a/c, and any other non-friendlies around.


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 1, 2011)

renrich said:


> I don't know what kind of mistake an experienced pilot like Boyington could make that could get him shot down.


 
Perhaps the same one that got him shot down. Of course Hartmann was shot down multiple times. Which reminds me of the saying "You learn more from your mistakes than your successes."

Yes Boyington was an experienced pilot but that also reminds me of the saying "There is 20 years of experience and then there is 1 year of experience repeated 20 times."

Boyington's experience was against well piloted aircraft inferior to the Corsair in most performance parameters.

Hartmann's experience was far broader and included surviving attacks from opponents flying on occasion superior aircraft. As far as his marksmanship is concerned: I believe someone recently posted a story about him attacking 3 Sturmoviks in formation with precise shots to the radiators that brought down all three.


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 1, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> Jim,
> 
> .... Hartmann ...... never got shot down by an enemy a/c .......


 
Really? I thought he was several times but always survived.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 1, 2011)

Lighthunmust said:


> Really? I thought he was several times but always survived.


 
debris from enemy a/c he shot down forced him to belly land a couple of time. the other 5 times was from
russian flak.


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## renrich (Jul 1, 2011)

A lot of the stuff about Hartmann is a myth including the 352 kills. I believe that Boyington was shot down in a multiple AC fracas where he was surprised from his six. Much different than a one v one. The Corsair was better at angles than the FW and the FW was better than the Me, I have read so the Corsair has the edge in an angles fight. Johnson could whip the Spit which had the same advantages over the Jug which the Me has over the Corsair. I wonder if Boyington knew about Johnson's tactics? I still think it is a draw. 

Page 126, "Horrido" Hartmann--" My only tactic was to wait until I had the chance to attack the enemy and then close in at high speed. I opened fire only when the windshield was black with the enemy. Wait!-until the enemy covers your windshield." ....."at minimum range......it does not matter what your angle is to him or whether you are in a turn or any other maneuver." Sounds like he liked to get very close on an unsuspecting enemy or one who could not evade and execute a low or no deflection shot. That kind of gunnery was probably responsible for the vast majority of the kills in WW2 on all sides. On the contrary, Boyington was trained by the USN in high deflection shooting which would be a big advantage in a one V one. Hartmann was downed 16 times so he had to have been a victim of an enemy fighter sometime.

Page 31, "Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering" Robert L Shaw- Regarding gun attacks-" As long as the defender has awareness, speed, and altitude for maneuvering, he can make the task of the attacking gunfighter almost impossible." I am sure that both Boyington and Hartmann were both aware of that fact. Consequently, with two rather evenly matched fighters, neither pilot was likely to be successful in a one v one. In a P51, if the pilot had awareness, speed and altitude, he had little to fear from a single fighter, even a Me 262!


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 1, 2011)

' _A lot of the stuff about Hartmann is a myth including the 352 kills _'

believe me, if the russians ever shot down Hartmann, the WHOLE world would have knew about it.
from whats available. no russian ever made a claim of shooting down Erich Hartmann.

also, there are many many pilots on both sides with victories that never got shot down by an enemy
a/c.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 1, 2011)

also, many years ago there was a big whoopie-doo about Hartmanns kills. on both
sides ( west German / American historians) conclusion: 352 kills.


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 1, 2011)

renrich said:


> A lot of the stuff about Hartmann is a myth including the 352 kills. I believe that Boyington was shot down in a multiple AC fracas where he was surprised from his six. Much different than a one v one. The Corsair was better at angles than the FW and the FW was better than the Me, I have read so the Corsair has the edge in an angles fight. Johnson could whip the Spit which had the same advantages over the Jug which the Me has over the Corsair. I wonder if Boyington knew about Johnson's tactics? I still think it is a draw.


 
Put Joe Foss in the Corsair and I will agree to a draw or better.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 1, 2011)

Once committed to an attack, fly in at full speed. After scoring crippling or disabling hits, I would clear myself and then repeat the process. I never pursued the enemy once they had eluded me. Better to break off and set up again for a new assault. I always began my attacks from full strength, if possible, my ideal flying height being 22,000 ft because at that altitude I could best utilize the performance of my aircraft. Combat flying is based on the slashing attack and rough maneuvering. In combat flying, fancy precision aerobatic work is really not of much use. Instead, it is the rough maneuver which succeeds.

— Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann Jagdgeschwader 52


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## Snautzer01 (Jul 1, 2011)

I dont think they would have attacked each other. They were very aware of the risk taking on a pilot that could match their abilities.


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## Juha (Jul 1, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> also, many years ago there was a big whoopie-doo about Hartmanns kills. on both
> sides ( west German / American historians) conclusion: 352 kills.


 
Really
when over 99% of Hartmann's claims were against Soviet a/c, how West German and US historians could many years ago confirm all his alleged kills? Can you name the historians? And several serious Russian researchers had during recent years agreed that while many German aces were very reliable claimers, for ex Barkhorn and Lipfert, Hartmann's claim accuracy wasn't amongst the best. And those Russians are those who has access to Soviet data which is essential, if one wants to check the claims against real losses.

Juha


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 1, 2011)

can I name them? no! lol. it was a long time ago. 1980's somewhere around that time.
dosn't seemed to have been challenged since(?).


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## Juha (Jul 1, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> can I name them? no! lol. it was a long time ago. 1980's somewhere around that time.
> dosn't seemed to have been challenged since(?).


 
Now how without access on info on Soviet losses they reached their conclusion? BTW how many Mustang victories Bubi had according those historians?

Juha


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## Snautzer01 (Jul 1, 2011)

Juha said:


> Soviet data which is essential,
> 
> Juha



So soviet data is without propaganda? 

as i might add is the german data on Hartmann (There must be a reason why he only made it to Lieutenant Colonel in the new german Luftwaffe that was commanded by his former friends
and it isnt the F104)


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 1, 2011)

Juha said:


> Now how without access on info on Soviet losses they reached their conclusion? BTW how many Mustang victories Bubi had according those historians?
> 
> Juha


 
i don't know how they got info on russian losses. maybe they had accsess to some records. 
I think Bubi got one victory in the west while in command for a couple weeks with JG53.
No Idea what he shot down.


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## renrich (Jul 1, 2011)

Erich, on this forum mentioned these high scores in another thread recently. Hartmann was shot down in 1943 and captured but escaped. Here is the problem with a one v one where both have speed(to maneuver), altitude and awareness. In an attack from the six o clock position you need to overtake. The defender sees the attacker and turns to force a high deflection shot where the attacker cannot pull enough lead. The attacker must be careful not to overshoot because the defender can reverse and go offensive especially if he is a good deflection shooter. I see a one v one like this as a jousting match with no joy for either.

As for the credits to Hartmann, Marseille, etc, Saburo, Bong, O Hare, whoever. My guess if all credits were compared to actual losses the totals would come down at least 25% and some as high as 50%. O Hare was credited with six Betties on his memorable day, later reduced to five. The IJN records show only four Betties downed that day. It was usually not dishonesty but just errors, easily explainable. He sees a Betty on fire going down through a layer of clouds. Another pilot sees the Betty come out of the clouds and crash in the sea. Confirmed kill. But the Betty going down through the clouds was a different one that went into the sea. And since it was seen by another pilot who got his time and position mixed up, it got counted twice and the one going down in flames through the cloud, put out the fires and limped home.


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## Juha (Jul 1, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> i don't know how they got info on russian losses. maybe they had accsess to some records.
> I think Bubi got one victory in the west while in command for a couple weeks with JG53.
> No Idea what he shot down.


 
Hello P-40
I bet that in 80s they didn’t have access to Soviet military records. Moreover, vast majority of LW records was destroyed during late part of WWII and especially during the last days of the Reich. Even 2003 Finnish edition of The Blonde Knight had the Bubi’s victory list in which on victories 267-290 only info is that those had happened sometimes between 25 Jun and 23 Aug 44, same in victories 333-346 (sometimes between 6 – 27 Feb 45). How a heck one can conclude if all those claims were valid or not without any concrete info on date or the victim, saying nothing on time and place. In 80s situation was probably even worse. Nowadays situation is better because of some archival findings and we know some 333 Hartman’s claims, vast majority with times, there is still a gap at the beginning of 45.

Juha


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 1, 2011)

maybe President Ronald Reagan was a fan of Erich Hartmann? pulled a few strings, got some results LOL.
anyways, Erich vs Gregory... whats your 'Pik'???


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## Juha (Jul 1, 2011)

renrich said:


> Erich, on this forum mentioned these high scores in another thread recently. Hartmann was shot down in 1943 and captured but escaped. Here is the problem with a one v one where both have speed(to maneuver), altitude and awareness. In an attack from the six o clock position you need to overtake. The defender sees the attacker and turns to force a high deflection shot where the attacker cannot pull enough lead. The attacker must be careful not to overshoot because the defender can reverse and go offensive especially if he is a good deflection shooter. I see a one v one like this as a jousting match with no joy for either.
> 
> As for the credits to Hartmann, Marseille, etc, Saburo, Bong, O Hare, whoever. My guess if all credits were compared to actual losses the totals would come down at least 25% and some as high as 50%. O Hare was credited with six Betties on his memorable day, later reduced to five. The IJN records show only four Betties downed that day. It was usually not dishonesty but just errors, easily explainable. He sees a Betty on fire going down through a layer of clouds. Another pilot sees the Betty come out of the clouds and crash in the sea. Confirmed kill. But the Betty going down through the clouds was a different one that went into the sea. And since it was seen by another pilot who got his time and position mixed up, it got counted twice and the one going down in flames through the cloud, put out the fires and limped home.


 
I bet that also Hartmann overclaimed, and that is what several Russian researchers say. Why, I don't know but one possible reason was his combat style combined to usual Soviet numerical superiority. Hartmann's method was very effective and relatively safe to himself, I'd say optimal tactic for a ace even if I doubt that it was optimal for WM, almost all kills were against fighters, only 15 Il-2s IIRC. 

While Bubi's combat method was effective MHO it didn't make him most dangerous duellist. On Boyington, I have only hazy recollection on him and his tactics and hazy recollection that also he/his units was not the most reliable claimer over Salomons.

Juha


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## Juha (Jul 1, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> maybe President Ronald Reagan was a fan of Erich Hartmann? pulled a few strings, got some results LOL.
> anyways, Erich vs Gregory... whats your 'Pik'???


 
Hello P-40
as I wrote in my previous message to Renrich, my recollection on Boyington are too hazy, also I don't have time to study carefully F4U vs Bf 109G-10 parameters. All can say that G-10 is my favorite 109 alongside with F-4 and that Swedish P-51 pilots and Illu Juutilainen have teach me that in duels the better climber had advance. So just guessing I'd give a slight advance to Hartmann and G-10.

Juha

BTW, hopefully Bubi is flying a normal G-10 because of MK 108 tended to jam during high G manoeuvres and 2 MG 131s would have been rather weak armament against Corsair.


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## Coors9 (Jul 1, 2011)

Aaaahhhh Gentile would kick both their butt's......


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## Juha (Jul 1, 2011)

BTW a good site on LW aces, basic info and update claim lists, for Bubi 
Aces of the Luftwaffe - Erich Hartmann

Juha


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 1, 2011)

renrich said:


> Erich, on this forum mentioned these high scores in another thread recently. Hartmann was shot down in 1943 and captured but escaped. Here is the problem with a one v one where both have speed(to maneuver), altitude and awareness. In an attack from the six o clock position you need to overtake. The defender sees the attacker and turns to force a high deflection shot where the attacker cannot pull enough lead. The attacker must be careful not to overshoot because the defender can reverse and go offensive especially if he is a good deflection shooter. I see a one v one like this as a jousting match with no joy for either.
> .



I think if 40 second Boyd could figure it out in say, oh, I don't know, maybe 2/3s of a minute, either Hartmann or Boyington could have in the same or more time.



Juha said:


> While Bubi's combat method was effective MHO it didn't make him most dangerous duellist.
> 
> Juha



Yup, snipers are not usually knife fighters, but I known some that are pretty good with a knife.



P-40K-5 said:


> Combat flying is based on the slashing attack and rough maneuvering. In combat flying, fancy precision aerobatic work is really not of much use. Instead, it is the rough maneuver which succeeds.
> 
> — Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann Jagdgeschwader 52



I think like a successful sales man, he preferred to go for the easy sale but certainly knew how to make the hard sale when necessary. 



Coors9 said:


> Aaaahhhh Gentile would kick both their butt's......



You certainly may be right, unless Godfrey got there first.


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## Coors9 (Jul 1, 2011)

LOL


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## renrich (Jul 1, 2011)

Personally I go for Joe Foss. He was a good gunner and got 26 credits with an airplane that did not perform as well as the Zekes he sometimes faced.


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 1, 2011)

renrich said:


> Personally I go for Joe Foss. He was a good gunner and got 26 credits with an airplane that did not perform as well as the Zekes he sometimes faced.


 
Roger that.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 1, 2011)

speaking of rough maneuvering, anybody know the pilot of this particular Bf109
who taught four p-51 pilots a thing or 10 about combat maneuvering???


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EDP5JmtSrM_


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## Timppa (Jul 2, 2011)

I can only recommend Bruce Gambles' book on Boyington.
It is one of the most honest books of a fighter ace i have seen.

Toliver/Constable book on Hartmann is total crap. Does a disservice to the great German ace.


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 2, 2011)

Timppa said:


> I can only recommend Bruce Gambles' book on Boyington.
> It is one of the most honest books of a fighter ace i have seen.
> 
> Toliver/Constable book on Hartmann is total crap. Does a disservice to the great German ace.


 
Since you have read the Gamble book, please share your opinion of Boyington as a leader, tactician, and individual fighter pilot. What do you recommend as a better source on Hartmann?


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## renrich (Jul 2, 2011)

That German pilot in the video might have been almost in the same league with Saburo Sakai, assuming the video and story is accurate, which is assuming a lot. The book I quoted from was "Horrido" by Tolliver and Constable. It is not solely about Hartmann but about many LW aces. They said nothing in the book which was uncomplimentary about Hartmann or for that matter, I can remember nothing uncomplimentary about any of the LW aces. I am sure the book, because it was written so long ago. lacks a lot in terms of accuracy and objectivity. The quotes from Hartmann about his tactics are also in "Fighter Combat, Tactics and Maneuvering" by Robert Shaw.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 2, 2011)

eye witness accounts from two of the four P-51 veterens who were there. I would call that accurate.
now this is NOT meant for you, but its funny how some P-51 fanatics always doubt stories about the
Bf109 abilities and her pilots... even when it comes straight from the P-51 pilots mouth!


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 2, 2011)

My sources on Hartmann are:

"The Blonde Knight of Germany" by Toliver and Constable

"Luftwaffe Fighter Aces" by Mike Spike

I have seen "Horrido" but never read it.

Timppa and anyone else, what do your recommend as better sources?

One thing to consider about the exploits of pilots surrounded by the enemy is it is a counterintuitive situation. Intuitively people think groups defeat individuals. However, if the individual surrounded is highly skilled and his opponents only of average skill several things are likely to happen. First is if a well coordinated attack is not made it can quickly become a messy situation of trying to stay out of each others way. Second is when the skilled individual seizes the initiative by surprising the hell out of the over-confident group when he does not passively accept defeat and bloodies the nose of the most aggressive member of the group. Third is the individual has more targets to shoot at than the group, and it will be difficult for group members to fire except in turn for fear of collision and friendly fire exposure.


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 2, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> eye witness accounts from two of the four P-51 veterens who were there. I would call that accurate.
> now this is NOT meant for you, but its funny how some P-51 fanatics always doubt stories about the
> Bf109 abilities and her pilots... even when it comes straight from the P-51 pilots mouth!


 
I have often observed sufferers of P-51itis failing to appreciate reality about not just opponent aircraft but those of allies. I think Mustang fans are only exceeded by Spitfire fans in susceptibility to being blinded by love, with ME-109 lovers being a by a nose close third.


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## renrich (Jul 2, 2011)

P40K, I understand what you are saying and I really think that might be true about everyone who has a favorite WW2 plane. I include myself as I was bitten by the Corsair Bug back during WW2 when my parents gave me a book which had a color picture of the XF4U in it. Later in the fifties, I worked at Temco Aircraft next to the Vought plant and used to walk out and look longingly at a few F4Us they had around. Alas, I was color blind and could not fly in the service so had to be a ground pounder.

The video you posted and the story do illustrate what I was saying earlier. A skilled pilot with awareness, altitude and speed can almost always keep from getting hit, although against numerous attackers it is quite a chore. It helps if the attackers are rookies. Saburo Sakai eluded a bunch of Hellcats that kept getting in each other's way until he was exhausted and could almost not control stick and rudder. He mentioned that he thought the Navy guys were probably inexperienced and forgot their lessons.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 2, 2011)

Yes, there seems to be a lore about the P-51 Mustang, and Spitfire. Saburo Sakai was the japanese ace that was shot through the head
and managed to fly 400 miles back to his base, correct? anyways, in my honest opinion, superior numbers beat the Luftwaffe, not nessesarly
great planes or pilots. and not to mention the B-17 Lancasters destorying German Steel Factories fuel depots. when one is outnumber like the Luftwaffe was in 1944, no amount of experiance or tallent will save you. only luck will.


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## Coors9 (Jul 2, 2011)

Other than the liquid cooled ground fire stuff, from "44" on there was no better all around fighter in the world. Mass numbers helped no doubt. That bird proved itself time and time again. I love the Bucher Bird and the Milk Jug. Willie made one dangerous little birdcage. Corsair, probably the reason I fell in love with WW2 fighters in the beginning. I'd almost say perfection. If it wasn't for her younger brother, she'd have been dogfighting over the 49th. This is just one guy's opinion .


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## Njaco (Jul 3, 2011)

From the account, the Bf 109 pilot would have been from JG 11 who were tasked to attack airfield Y-29 that morning. Amazing.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 3, 2011)

Njaco said:


> From the account, the Bf 109 pilot would have been from JG 11 who were tasked to attack airfield Y-29 that morning. Amazing.



after looking through my book, *BODENPLATTE: The Luftwaffe's Last Hope*, I'll bet my last dollar that the pilot in question is:

Ofw. Franz Meindl, who flew Bf 109G-14 WNr.784765 'blaue 11', from 8./JG 11. 

I highly recomend this book. He did amazing research into the actual victories/losses of the German during Operation Bodenplatte.
Suffice to say, it will open some eyes.

cheers.


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## tyrodtom (Jul 3, 2011)

I read that book last year, it shows the sadness of war with some of the remains still being discovered, and some that will probably never be found.

Very well researched, one of the best i've read.


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## Timppa (Jul 3, 2011)

Lighthunmust said:


> My sources on Hartmann are:
> 
> "The Blonde Knight of Germany" by Toliver and Constable
> 
> ...



The problem is that there is no better source, as of now. Manfred Jäger/Ursula Hartmann's book may be a good read but I have not seen it.
Toliver/Constable -book is pure hero worship. For example the the 5 P-51 victories in summer 1944 is fiction, even by German records.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 3, 2011)

tyrodtom said:


> I read that book last year, it shows the sadness of war with some of the remains still being discovered, and some that will probably never be found.
> 
> Very well researched, one of the best i've read.



yes, very sad. heres a few paragraphs from the book. This is something I would expect the Russians or French to do, but not Americans.

_"By the time I got to the plane, the pilot had been shot and his flight-suit taken. He was lying in a pool of blood in his longhandles with one foot on the wing. He had coal black hair, about 20 years old or less, and looked just like a cousin of mine.A friend of mine,Smith,56 shot the pilot as he got out of his plane, a Me 109.A Grave Registration Unit picked up the body and the next day officers of Corps Headquarters came to our unit to investigate. They didn't like it because a German had been brought in dead in his underwear."

"The unfortunate pilot was Uffz. Herbert Maxis of 13.1JG 53. Uffz. Maxis belly-landed his
'White 13' just east of Ittersdorf along the road from Felsberg to Boulay. As he climbed out of the
ship, Ufu. Maxis raised his hands and tried to surrender, but was immediately shot by a member
of 'A' battery of the 739th FA Bn."

"A bullet had wounded Pfc. Camile J. LeForte of'A' Battery and this was apparently sufficient reason to shoot Maxis on the spot"

"A court-martial was threatened for the gunner, but it seems the whole affair was covered up."

"In official reports it was reported that Ufu. Maxis made a move, which had been interpreted as hostile by the Field Artillery personnel."

"Today his grave remains unfound and Uffz. Herbert Maxis is still listed as MIA."_


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 3, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> This is something I would expect the Russians or French to do, but not Americans.[/I]


 
With respect, unless you are making an emotionally impulsive comment, you obviously have much to learn about Americans and war in general. All sides committed individual and collective acts such as you described. It is the frequency, magnitude, and self-imposed consequences of such acts that separates the "civilized" armies from the "barbaric" armies. I suspect if you look you will find events such as you described were far less common in the U.S. military than those of other countries. I think you should consider that by the time of the incident you describe; everyone from private to general was fed up with German resistance in a lost war that resulted in needless deaths. Unless you are there and see your best friend seriously wounded and your friends dead from a pointless attack, I would not be too harsh a judge of the man who killed unfortunate Herbert Maxis. What happened was wrong but understandable. Don't forget many of those Americans had grandparents and parents born in England, Germany,Italy, Russia, etc.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 3, 2011)

It wasn't a pointless attack, just a surprising one. 


Once Maxis's hands were raised to surrender, the 56 year old Smith shot Maxis in the head anyways, what would you call it?
I know other countries did the same, but thats not the discussion here.


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## tyrodtom (Jul 3, 2011)

Under stress and the influence of adrenaline, even in sports, people can do things they normally wouldn't do. 
We've all seen people do uncharacteristic things under those conditions, now just think of a quatam leap of additional pressure put on a person when the bullets start to fly.


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## Readie (Jul 3, 2011)

Steve Tom 
Back to normal I see....
Disappointing eh?
Cheers
John


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 3, 2011)

tyrodtom said:


> Under stress and the influence of adrenaline, even in sports, people can do things they normally wouldn't do.
> We've all seen people do uncharacteristic things under those conditions, now just think of a quatam leap of additional pressure put on a person when the bullets start to fly.


 
yes very correct. but still, what would one call that action? was it a court-matial offence? I appreciate a good discussion, thanks guys.

John,
please refrain from troll posting in an otherwise good thread which you seem to do when I post. thank you very much.


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 3, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> It wasn't a pointless attack, just a surprising one.
> 
> 
> Once Maxis's hands were raised to surrender, the 56 year old Smith shot Maxis in the head anyways, what would you call it?
> I know other countries did the same, but thats not the discussion here.


 
By the time in the war of Bodenplatte any attack was a pointless attack, and as a surprise attack it was a suicidal disaster that accomplished nothing but needless killing. Only a failure of German military leadership to have the courage to kill Hitler and his cronies prevented a rational and rapid surrender. 

I would call what Smith did a war crime, for which he was informally tried and judged by authorities there and found to be not guilty by reason of "temporary insanity".

You made this part of the discussion here when you mentioned a war crime. You followed this with a derogatory comment about the French and Russians implying they were culturally barbarians, then implied  that a American had sunk to that level, and implied middle-age was also a factor. The unstated insulting message in your remark is that Germans would never behave in such a manner. Moments before his murder the noble knight of the air had exercised the killing power of a thousand men on individual men who were relatively defenseless in comparison. In another time and place, with a different enemy he would have been flayed alive for what he did. As Brennus said as he threw his sword on the scales "Woe to the conquered". I think it best if we all avoid making any comment remotely judgmental of individual acts of barbarity by the belligerents. This will prevent replication of what I hope is your inadvertent insult of many people.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 3, 2011)

Lighthunmust said:


> By the time in the war of Bodenplatte any attack was a pointless attack, and as a surprise attack it was a suicidal disaster that accomplished nothing but needless killing. Only a failure of German military leadership to have the courage to kill Hitler and his cronies prevented a rational and rapid surrender.
> 
> I would call what Smith did a war crime, for which he was informally tried and judged by authorities there and found to be not guilty by reason of "temporary insanity".
> 
> You made this part of the discussion here you mentioned a war crime. You followed this with a derogatory comment about the French and Russians implying they were culturally barbarians, then implied  that a American had sunk to that level, and implied middle-age was also a factor. The unstated insulting message in your remark is that Germans would never behave in such a manner. Moments before his murder the noble knight of the air had exercised the killing power of a thousand men on individual men who were relatively defenseless in comparison. In another time and place, with a different enemy he would have been flayed alive for what he did. As Brennus said as he threw his sword on the scales "Woe to the conquered". I think it best if we all avoid making any comment remotely judgmental of individual acts of barbarity by the belligerents. This will prevent replication of what I hope is your inadvertent insult of many people.


ahh. lots of assumptions about me that your are making. Unfortunatly you are wrong for the most part with those assumptions.
I never once said that the Germans wouldn't do the same thing. not once. I don't know what war you read about, but the russians
were barbaians. Raping women children when they entered Berlin. Perhaps you could use a more apt desciption? 

Smith wasn't tried for anything. It was swepted under the rug so-to-speak.

It was suicidal yes, only becouse the areas they very flying into was heavily defended with AAA for V1/V2 rockets. Adolf Galland
had a plan that would have crippled the Americans bought the Germans 3week to a month to regroup reorganize. but he was 
denied. Devine intervention perhaps?

Regardless, it is was it is. the good guys won the war.


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 3, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> ahh. lots of assumptions about me that your are making. Unfortunatly you are wrong for the most part with those assumptions.
> I never once said that the Germans wouldn't do the same thing. not once. I don't know what war you read about, but the russians
> were barbaians. Raping women children when they entered Berlin. Perhaps you could use a more apt desciption?
> 
> ...




I don't think you really understand the correct use of the word assumption. I did not assume anything about you. I merely stated my opinion of what you were implying. I think most people will agree with my opinion.

I am very aware of what the Russians did in Berlin and elsewhere. Why bring up behavior that the Germans and soldiers of every nation did to one extent of another. If it is to indicate the Russians were the worst offenders I think you need to broaden you reading list of WWII literature. By the way I have lived in Germany and been to Berlin twice. I think I have some concept of what the consequences of the war were for Germans.

I also think you do not understand the concept of nuance very well. My statement about Smith's "trial" obviously was not comprehended. Here is a more blunt explanation: The military leadership at the location of the incident informally considered what happened (trial) considered the metal state of Smith and the prevalent mental state of combatants (judged) and determined that under the conditions of combat anyone could have done what Smith did (ruled not guilty by reason of temporary insanity). If Smith had a history of such behavior or acted with premeditation he would probably receive a formal trial. If you served in the U.S. military you would be aware that Company and Field Grade Officers can use at their discretion non-judicial procedures for certain offenses. In wartime the bounds of discretion are frequently stretched far beyond anything in peacetime.

In my opinion your description of the conditions of Bodenplatte is far from reality. As far as Galland's plan, well many such never implemented plans are frequently lamented for the assumed success they were denied. This is usually done by the bitter vanquished, their descendants who attempt to emphasize nobility in defeat and not the ignobility of their ancestors other actions, and by individuals who have an unnatural affinity for both. 

Yes "the good guys won the war" and it was the best thing that could have ever happened to Germany. This does not mean that individual Germans did not act with honor or bravery only that collectively they acted wrongly. 

Whether you realize it or not, whether it was deliberate or inadvertent, you have greatly insulted many people. Why not just apologize? I am sure everyone is ready to give you the benefit of doubt and acceptance of your apology.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 3, 2011)

sorry for using "assume/assuming" in the wrong context. English is not my First language.


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## renrich (Jul 3, 2011)

Back on the subject of dog fights, here is a funny true story which illustrates how awareness can determine the outcome of a very one sided dogfight. This is from a book called "Flying Through Time" by James Doyle. A very good read about a man who flies an ancient Stearman around to the fields the Stearman flew out of during WW2. There are numerous anecdotes from pilots who trained on Stearmans and their experiences during the War. This one is from Captain Joseph C. Pinmetal, a P47 pilot in the AAF. I will not quote this story exactly but rather paraphrase it to shorten my typing agony. In Late July, 1944, Pinmetal's outfit got a short leave to go back to England for R&R. He and some of his pilots were sitting at Biggin Hill, awaiting transport back to France and nursing hangovers when they were called to the operations desk. They reported, thinking a transport was ready to take them back to their field. Instead they were put on a bus and driven down the tarmac to where six L-4s were parked. The L-4 was the Piper Cub with a 65 HP engine. The L-4s had recreational gear, tennis rackets, record players, basketballs, etc and extra gas tanks in the front seats and six of the fighter pilots were to ferry the L-4s across the channel. Pinmetal was the ranking officer and he was to fly the one L-4 with a radio. A navigational channel had been established from a spot on the English coast called Selsey Bill to a point close to Utah Beach. There was a "high cover" in place above the navigational channel and the radio was to be used in case the 'high cover" was needed to repel LW fighters.

The six L-4s with the six disgruntled American fighter pilots took off and were soon in a gaggle going across the channel. The planes all had different performance characteristics and Pinmetal was kept busy flying about making sure all were together. Around mid channel and at about 5000 feet, suddenly two yellow nosed FW190s came diving from above through the "formation" of L-4s. On the first pass through they did not shoot but rather seemed to want to terrify the pilots of the little planes, not realizing that the guys in the L-4s were fighter pilots. In stead of scattering all the L-4s turned in unison and pointed their noses at the FWs, like birds watching a hawk. In the meantime Pinmetal frantically called mayday to the "high cover" and the Brits up above answered. While he was talking to the Brits here came the two FWs with guns blazing. The moment they started shooting, all six L-4s went into violent maneuvers, hammerhead stalls, falling leafs, spins, side slips, half rolls, you name it. They were like balloons floating at the mercy of the winds. After three passes and about 1000 feet of lost altitude, the FWs had hit nothing and got smart, splitting up and coming from two different directions and one of the FWs dropped flaps and landing gear to slow down. About that time the "high cover" came screaming down and jumped the Germans and they hauled freight. Not a single hit had been scored on the L-4s but they all ran out of fuel just before they got to Utah Beach and all ditched in the surf where the pilots were picked up.

The moral of this story is that just because you have a superior airplane, if the other guy sees you coming, all is not lost.


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 3, 2011)

Great story! A perfect example of a counterintuitive outcome to a weak versus strong engagement. Thank you for the pleasant change of topic.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 3, 2011)

awesome story I must say. And yes, situational awareness will save ones butt alot of times. out of curiosity, becouse all six
L4's ditched in the sea, would that be considered a ' manuvering kill(s) '?


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 3, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> out of curiosity, becouse all six
> L4's ditched in the sea, would that be considered a ' manuvering kill(s) '?


 
That's funny and true!


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## Coors9 (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm still going with Gentile.......


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## drgondog (Jul 4, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> in my honest opinion, superior numbers beat the Luftwaffe, not nessesarly
> great planes or pilots. and not to mention the B-17 Lancasters destorying German Steel Factories fuel depots. when one is outnumber like the Luftwaffe was in 1944, no amount of experiance or tallent will save you. only luck will.


 
Perhaps you could illustrate with facts how the Luftwaffe was outnumbered over Germany - with specifics on superior numbers of Allied fighters versus, say LuftFlotte Reich - from Jan through July, 1944?


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## norab (Jul 4, 2011)

To get back to the original question, I think it ends up going against whoever makes the first mistake


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 4, 2011)

norab said:


> To get back to the original question, I think it ends up going against whoever makes the first mistake


 
I agree and in reality you usually only get to make one mistake in this deadly scenario before you are dead. This is why I suggested that if the scenario was run 100 times, Hartmann would win more that 50 times.


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## drgondog (Jul 4, 2011)

I think I agree with odds favoring Hartmann versus any other fighter pilot. Would prefer Foss' chances over Boyington as he demonstrated great skill in an inferior airplane and would argue that any ace who racked up scores despite engaging with less capable fighters (Finn pilots come to mind, guys like Tex Hill and Allison and Herbst come to mind, many VVS aces come to mind, most Hurricane aces (Tuck, Bader, etc) come to mind.) would have a better chance than Boyington..

Recall also that Rall's last kill came when he had superior tactical advantage against Zemke's flight, had Zemke in a very poor tactical position but couldn't finish him off, then got caught in an inferior position and shot down. I would argue Rall as good as Hartmann, and also give very strong support to Bar and Ihlefeld in the West.

I don't detract from Boyington - having said that, Boyington's only fighter scores flying P-40 were against Type-97s in AVG as contrasted w/Foss, Hill, Landers, Thatch, O'Hare, etc - flying F4F/P-40's against many more Zero's.


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## Readie (Jul 4, 2011)

drgondog said:


> most Hurricane aces (Tuck, Bader, etc) come to mind.) would have a better chance



There were Spitfire aces too. Johnnie Johnson. who claimed 34 victories over enemy aircraft, as well as seven shared victories, three shared probables, ten damaged, three shared damaged and one destroyed on the ground.This score made him the highest scoring Western Allied fighter ace against the German Luftwaffe, thus becoming the British, and Western Allied flying ace, with the greatest number of victories in the European War. Only Marmaduke Pattle claimed more victories overall than any other Western Allied pilot in Europe, but over half of his claims were made against the Italian Regia Aeronautica (Italian Royal Air Force) and a significant number of his claims cannot be verified.

Robert Roland Stanford Tuck Johnnie Johnson were gentleman to their boot heels as well.
Cheers
John


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## tyrodtom (Jul 4, 2011)

Why has no one even mentioned Bong ? America's ace, verses Germany's ! Plus Bong was another pilot 

who like to fill his winshield full of the enemy before he opened fire . 

To be fair both pilots would either have to be in aircraft very familiar to them, so late model Me109, against later P38. Or in different aircraft from their usual . 

Both seem to usually employ the same tactics, zoom in, blow em up quick, get out of dodge, don't get into a turning dogfight.

But IMO Hartman would have the edge, vastly more experienced.


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 4, 2011)

tyrodtom said:


> Why has no one even mentioned Bong ? America's ace, verses Germany's ! Plus Bong was another pilot
> 
> who like to fill his winshield full of the enemy before he opened fire .
> 
> ...


 
I agree that Bong would be a better choice than Boyington. But like Boyington, Bong was flying an aircraft that was superior in most parameters to the well piloted but inferior aircraft of his opponents. Bong himself admits he was a poor marksman, hence his tactic of getting close. I wonder if he was actually an average or good marksman that had a more honest and realistic opinion of his abilities than most fighter pilots? I think Foss demonstrated greater fighting skill flying a Wildcat against Zeros than just about any PTO pilot in any aircraft.


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## Readie (Jul 4, 2011)

We also have the celebrated Sailor Malan. Spitfire ace and gentleman flyer.

Sailor Malan's famous 10 Commandments of engagement 

1. Wait until you see the whites of his eyes. Fire short bursts of one to two seconds only when your sights are definitely "ON"
2. Whilst shooting think of nothing else, brace the whole of your body: have both hands on the stick: concentrate on your ring sight.
3. Always keep a sharp lookout. "Keep your finger out".
4. Height gives you the initiative.
5. Always turn and face the attack.
6. Make your decisions promptly. It is better to act quickly even though your tactics are not the best.
7. Never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area.
8. When diving to attack always leave a proportion of your formation above to act as a top guard.
9. INITIATIVE, AGGRESSION, AIR DISCIPLINE, and TEAM WORK are words that MEAN something in Air Fighting.
10. Go in quickly - Punch hard - Get out!


It was during the Battle Of Britain that Malan claimed perhaps his most famous victory none other than the famous Luftwaffe fighter Ace Werner Molders, Molders was the first Luftwaffe pilot of the second World War to reach the 20th victory mark. Molders was looking for his 27th victory, he had just claimed his 26th when his messerschmitt was raked with bullets. Had Spitfires been armed with cannon, Molders would not have been able to nurse his badly damaged machine back to the continent. When he landed, his leg wounds were bad enough to put him into hospital. It was to be another month before Molders could claim victim number twenty-seven. Malan scored his last victories for 74 Squadron in February 1941 when he shot down a Bf109 on the 2nd and shared a Do17 on the 5th. He was then posted to lead the Biggin Hill Wing on March 10th where he remained until August. During this period at Biggin Hill, Malan shot down twelve Bf109’s, probably another Bf109, shared two more Bf109’s and damaged nine more. In March 1944 he took command of 145 Wing, which consisted of 329, 340, 341 Squadrons (French). On D-Day, Malan led a Section of 340 Squadron as escorts to Horsa gliders being towed. Sailor Malan left the Raf in 1946 with the rank of Group Captain and along with his British awards, he was decorated with the Croix de Guerre (Belgian), Croix de Guerre (French) and the Czech Military Cross. He moved back to South Africa with his family. Sailor Malan finished the War with 27 confirmed victories and another 7 shared there are many conflicting reports to Malans actual total many believe the score to be far greater.

Any flyer that could have Molders is amongst the greatest of aces.
Cheers
John


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## drgondog (Jul 4, 2011)

I know John - left them out of the initial comparison because they did fight in 'an equal opportunity fighter' - ditto Bong, McCambell, McGuire, Gabreski, Preddy, etc, etc. Who knows where Beckham, Beeson, Duncan, Goodson, etc would have ended up had they not been downed by flak? Especially Beckham who went down before the big fights occurred.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 4, 2011)

Readie said:


> Molders is amongst the greatest of aces.



Rank First Name Last Name Spitfires picked like grapes

Obst. Josef "Pips" Priller-------------------68 

Hptm. Josef "Sepp" Wurmheller----------56+ 

Maj. Hans "Assi" Hahn-----------------------53 

Obstlt. Egon Mayer----------------------------51

Genlt. Adolf "Dolfo" Galland-----------------50


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## Readie (Jul 4, 2011)

P-40K-5 Spitfires picked like grapes
[/QUOTE said:


> 'Any flyer that could have Molders is amongst the greatest of aces'
> This is my post, if you read it you'll see that Malan is the greatest of aces as he downed Molders.
> 
> Galland and Tuck becane firm friends after the war, perhaps this is the best outcome rather an a list of victories.
> ...


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 4, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> Rank First Name Last Name Spitfires picked like grapes
> 
> Obst. Josef "Pips" Priller-------------------68
> 
> ...


 
Posting stats with the phrase "picked like grapes" is I am sure something the very pilots you list would find disrespectful to their honorable defeated adversaries. When are you going to stop posting passive aggressive comments in an attempt to defend your obvious opinion of the superiority of German pilots, aircraft, and Air Force? Continuing this behavior only decreases the credibility of your less incendiary, accurate comments. You don't see anyone obviously a USAAF or RAF fan using such language to describe allied victories over aircraft piloted by German and Japanese men. Many aircraft piloted by German men were destroyed very easily by opponents. Nobody here is degrading the memory of those men with comparisons to picking fruit. People are still alive that knew the pilots of the "grapes" you refer to and will not appreciate your analogy. Such comments from young and immature fighter pilots may have been common during the war but are not appropriate here. They are only examples of incivility.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 4, 2011)

the phrase was coined by the Luftwaffe pilots themselves.. but I'm sure you knew that but just forgot.


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 4, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> the phrase was coined by the Luftwaffe pilots themselves.. but I'm sure you knew that but just forgot.


 
I did not know or had forgotten the phrase was coined by Luftwaffe pilots. Perhaps if you had placed the phrase in that context you would not have appeared to be so provocative? You are not a Luftwaffe pilot in 1939-45, perhaps you should not use their derogatory terminology without attribution. Whether it is deliberate or inadvertent your phasing often has an uncivil tone. I am only being honest with you and not baiting you. You do have many credible postings I find interesting but you really need to craft your message more carefully with regard to your audience.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 4, 2011)

perhaps its becouse I choose to embrace the past and move on, rather then ignore it and stagnate.
no, I am not a Luftwaffe Pilot from 1939-1945. But I had relatives on my mothers side that were as
I recently found out. shall I ignore there sevice to their country?


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## Lighthunmust (Jul 4, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> perhaps its becouse I choose to embrace the past and move on, rather then ignore it and stagnate.
> no, I am not a Luftwaffe Pilot from 1939-1945. But I had relatives on my mothers side that were as
> I recently found out. shall I ignore there sevice to their country?


 
No one is asking that you ignore or forget the brave and honorable individual actions of your ancestors. You rightfully should be proud of the brave and honorable individual actions of your ancestors even if they occurred in support of a bad cause. You will receive much more respect and understanding of the reasons for your pride if you express it in a more civil and reasoned manner that does not dismiss the accomplishments of others to justify your pride. My wife's uncle was Hitler Youth and fought as a child soldier. He does not make apologies, excuses for failure, or indirect derogatory comments about his former adversaries to express his pride in acting honorably in defense of his Fatherland. Show pride for your ancestors and heritage but do it for the right reasons and in the right ways.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 4, 2011)

I don't subscibe to political correctness. but I'll curb my attitude. maybe READIE should take a page from your book too.


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## Coors9 (Jul 4, 2011)

How about forgive and forget you two. I still think Don Gentile would kick their rudders , even with only four 50's that tended to jam.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 4, 2011)

what about *Saburo Sakai *vs *Hans-Joachim Marseille* using there favorite a/c? I think that would be an EPIC dogfight...


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 4, 2011)

Hmm, that would actually be pretty cool.


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## Coors9 (Jul 4, 2011)

Both in zero's with same hours would be something.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 5, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> perhaps its becouse I choose to embrace the past and move on, rather then ignore it and stagnate.
> no, I am not a Luftwaffe Pilot from 1939-1945. But I had relatives on my mothers side that were as
> I recently found out. shall I ignore there sevice to their country?



No but you don't have to disrespect or ignore the others as well...

I too have relatives that served in WW2. My Grandfather on my mothers side was a Major in the German Wehrmacht and served on the Eastern Front including Stalingrad. My wifes Grandfather on her fathers side was in the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front. My grandfather who was in the US Army and landed on Omaha Beach. I respect both of thier military service and the honor they had in the service of their respective countries. 

Whether you mean to or not, you are sometimes very disrespective and even sometimes on the verge of revisionism...

My suggestion to you would be this:

Think before you speak.



P-40K-5 said:


> I don't subscibe to political correctness. but I'll curb my attitude. maybe READIE should take a page from your book too.



Political correctness has nothing to do with it.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 5, 2011)

had to look up revisionism. "_Though the word "revisionism' is sometimes used in a negative way, constant revision of history is part of the normal scholarly process of writing history_."
so you also have European roots, well you should know then that its very difficult to " dance around the bush" so to speak. being blunt is in the blood.

I'll try to curb my attitude. However I will not appologise for what I wrote.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 5, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> had to look up revisionism. "_Though the word "revisionism' is sometimes used in a negative way, constant revision of history is part of the normal scholarly process of writing history_."
> so you also have European roots, well you should know then that its very difficult to " dance around the bush" so to speak. being blunt is in the blood.
> 
> I'll try to curb my attitude. However I will not appologise for what I wrote.



A persons blood does not determine if they have to be polite or act like an adult.


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## Kryten (Jul 5, 2011)

Reading Spitfires over Malta at present which tries to corroberate claims with losses on each day suggests taking "pilots kill scores" with a very large pinch of salt anyway, the number of spitfires claimed destroyed relative to actuall losses, and vice versa, suggests most of these pilots claims were at aircraft they barely damaged, missed completely or which was hit by several aircraft and claimed by all of them, I'm beginning to think the only way to appreciate the actual peformance of an aircraft in combat is to study the outcome of a particular campaign, take into consideration the many variables such as maintenance, living conditions, logistic supply and even physical health of the people involved, then you can appreciate the outcome and the performance of the many aircraft involved and intergrated into the victory/defeat in the campaign.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 5, 2011)

all claims are always on the high side. thats a givin. the best way is to physically compare loss records, dates, with claims by the individual.
the book BODENPLATTE: The Luftwaffe's Last Hope is an excellent example of meticulas research.


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## Kryten (Jul 5, 2011)

I personally think way to much emphasis is placed on personal scores, its the performance of the whole arm that dictates the victors and in that I also include the ground staff!


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## Readie (Jul 5, 2011)

Kryten said:


> I personally think way to much emphasis is placed on personal scores, its the performance of the whole arm that dictates the victors and in that I also include the ground staff!




I agree, the Ace culture glamorised the fighter pilots with the most ( high number) of kills. It made good press for all countries in WW2.
Stanford Tuck was surprised to learn that his total went up one in circa 1965 when the remains of a LW bomber he claimed were found.
However, all this Ace stuff would not be possible without the ground crew etc etc.
I admire the fledging pilot with scarcely enough training who was hurled into fray. That must have been frightening.....
Cheers
John


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## Kryten (Jul 5, 2011)

I was watching a programme about the Battle of Britain and this WAAF controller said 
"it was'nt the fearless aces who were the real heroes, they could cope, it was the guys who were terrified but went anyway"
could'nt agree more!


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 5, 2011)

Kryten said:


> I personally think way to much emphasis is placed on personal scores, its the performance of the whole arm that dictates the victors and in that I also include the ground staff!


 
Erich Hartmann for instance.. Yes he was the Greatest Ace in history.. But I admire more for the simple fact he was always thinking about his
wingman too. probably the reason why he never lost a wingman.


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## Readie (Jul 5, 2011)

Kryten said:


> I was watching a programme about the Battle of Britain and this WAAF controller said
> "it was'nt the fearless aces who were the real heroes, they could cope, it was the guys who were terrified but went anyway"
> could'nt agree more!


 
Absolutely right.


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## Readie (Jul 5, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> Erich Hartmann.I admire more for the simple fact he was always thinking about his
> wingman too. probably the reason why he never lost a wingman.



Yes, a true team player. The LW had some inspired leaders like Galland and Mounders.
The RAF learnt a lot from LW tactics in the BoB.
Cheers
John


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 5, 2011)

Readie said:


> Yes, a true team player. The LW had some inspired leaders like Galland and Mounders.
> The RAF learnt a lot from LW tactics in the BoB.
> Cheers
> John


 
everybody learned alot on WWII I think.


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## Readie (Jul 5, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> everybody learned alot on WWII I think.


 
Lets hope so.
All the lessons were painfully learnt.
Cheers
John


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 5, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> after looking through my book, *BODENPLATTE: The Luftwaffe's Last Hope*, I'll bet my last dollar that the pilot in question is:
> 
> Ofw. Franz Meindl, who flew Bf 109G-14 WNr.784765 'blaue 11', from 8./JG 11.
> 
> ...


 
more info:

Mtt-Reg Bf109 Plant

780301 to 780880 - Bf109G-14/AS Sept-Oct'44
780881 to 780999 - majority Bf109G-14/AS to Aug'44
781000 to 781210 - Bf109G-14/AS from Sept'44
781220 to 781999 - Bf109G-14/AS unknown number Bf109G-14
782000 to 782280 - Bf109G-14/AS unknown number Bf109G-14
782281 to 782430 - Bf109G-14/AS from Sept'44
782750 to 783999 - Bf109G-14/AS from Sept-Oct'44
784001 to 784200 - Bf109G-14 from Sept'44
784730 to 784999 - majority Bf109G-14 finished Sept'44
785000 to 785145 - majority Bf109G-14/AS from Oct'44
785146 to 785170 - Bf109G-14/AS from Oct'44
785175 to 785200 - majority Bf109G-14/AS from Nov'44
785600 to 785725 - majority Bf109G-14, Nov'44
785726 to 785999 - majority Bf109G-14/AS, Nov-Dec'44
786300 to 786540 - majority Bf109G-14/AS, Jan'45
787445 to 787495 - majority Bf109G-14/AS, Feb'45



Bodenplatte JG11 G-14 losses

Bf 109G-14/AS WNr.785119 
Bf 109G-14/AS WNr.785787 
Bf 109G-14/AS WNr.785751 
Bf 109G-14 WNr.784958 
Bf 109G-14 WNr.784765 
Bf 109G-14/AS WNr.785770


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## TheMustangRider (Jul 5, 2011)

Let us do not forget about those who went off to war and never came back.
Most WWII veterans humbly say that those who paid the ultimate price deserve to be called the real heroes of The Second World War.
Those pilots who are perhaps only remembered by their families and friends; that fought gallantly for their cause, achieved a kill, two or maybe none and sadly lost their lives under the guns of a more experienced pilot, anti-aircraft fire or a tragic accident.


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## Kryten (Jul 6, 2011)

and boy were there plenty of accidents!


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## kettbo (Aug 16, 2011)

Plenty wounded, many have disabilities for life....War Wounded, real hero stuff.

Lots of these wounded folks were around when I was a youngster. American Legion halls were full, war stories in every corner. Guys without an arm, a leg, etc etc.

Later in my life I saw many of the German wounded when I was stationed at the Spa town of Bad Kissingen. In Uniform, my last name on the tag with KETTLER (very German) would draw the attention, sometimes allow me to start a conversation with a WW2 vet. Most of the old timers were very glad that the US kept a strong presence in Germany.
One particular field training exercise as the 1980s drew to a close we had parked our M-3 Bradleys in a woodline, platoon coil with ramps facing inward. With small towns seldom more than a few km away, the locals out for a weekend stroll found us. One old gent walking with a cane passed down the trail between our vehicles. I noted he had more than a casual interest in our 'toys' and was more or less 'kicking the tires' so I approached the guy and we struck up a conversation. Then my German was tolerable. He asked a LOT of questions about the Bradleys and modern Armor. He was amazed by the optics and thermal viewer capabilities. Eventually I got the guy to confide in me that he had served with the SS Panzers. He said the American JABOS hit his unit one day, late 1944 in Northern Italy, why he has used a cane ever since.
I had a pal stationed in nearby Schweinfurt. I went down there, hung out....his barracks were right next to where the bearing factories of Sachs and Kugelfischer. We walked the streets, Keith had some interest in this...some ruins were bulldozed and covered with soil to make a park, lots of the old buildings are still standing. FYI, Bad Kissingen was the IP for at least one of the bombing missions to Schweinfurt.

But there are other wounds the vets have to live with. After my tour in Germany, I returned home to California to visit my parents. Down on the corner of my street was Lee, father of a friend of mine. I had not spoken to him in some years so we chatted for a bit. I knew from my friend that Lee was a B-24 Bombardier, sometimes navigator during the war but had never talked to Lee about his service. Lee asked where I had been stationed. I replied, Bad Kissingen near Schweinfurt. He replied, "Hell, I used to bomb Schweinfurt, Leipzig too!" Talk about fighters, the AAA, etc. Lee went on to tell me on one mission that their B-24s were attacked from the front by FWs, he said that mission he was Navigator and that the Bombadier just feet away from him was blown up by the 20mm hits, the bomber shot to hell, and that the plane barely made it to Switzerland and an emergency landing. Think about your emotions when you plane may not make it out of German air space and what used to be your pal is now a pool of goo next to you. That has got to leave mental scars. 

When on my way back from Iraq late 2004, I thought about Lee. I experienced some near misses by mortar rounds and one very close call with an IED, piece of cake compared to Lee or others serving in the bombers.


Back to the topic of the thread....

Gotta go for the man with the sorties involving combat. If my numbers are right Hartmann had 1400+ sorties, over 800 times in action...wow. Granted, target-rich environment but the Soviets knew where Hartmann was operating and the VVS fighter pilots would not mind getting Ruples for life for gunning him down. Midwar to latewar, some pretty hot planes and pilots available. Not to mention AAA fire. Realizing that the opponent is not an easy mark and moving on to easier prey is a sign of experience. Living to fight another day is winning. Sharks and killer whales (orca) will seldom attack anything that can hurt it, think about it.


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## renrich (Aug 24, 2011)

kettbo, very interesting and insightful post. Especially last paragraph. Many thanks.


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