# Which low-production AC had the greatest effect on the war?



## Cletrac (Jul 14, 2012)

Some aircraft were built in small numbers but still had a sizable impact on the course of the war. Here's your chance to consider these planes, all of which had a production run of less than 1,000, and vote for which one was most influential. Forgive me if I forget something significant!


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## Procrastintor (Jul 14, 2012)

TBD, just because I like it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 14, 2012)

Because you like it, it had the greatest effect on the war?


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## stona (Jul 14, 2012)

Cletrac said:


> Some aircraft were built in small numbers but still had a sizable impact on the course of the war.



I'm afraid I don't believe that your premise is correct,so I obviously can't vote 

Cheers

Steve


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## buffnut453 (Jul 14, 2012)

Just to be boring, I could vote for the F2A because without it there would have been no F4F. Then there's the P-43 without which there'd have been no P-47. However, my vote would probably go to the Avro Manchester which ultimately evolved into the Lancaster.


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## stona (Jul 14, 2012)

buffnut453 said:


> Just to be boring, I could vote for the F2A because without it there would have been no F4F. Then there's the P-43 without which there'd have been no P-47. However, my vote would probably go to the Avro Manchester which ultimately evolved into the Lancaster.



On those grounds you could choose any number of aircraft,even prototypes.
I'd go for the Wright Flyer 
Steve


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## futuredogfight (Jul 14, 2012)

The Glad is my chocie. On the same grounds of why it is my favaorite bi-plane.


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## drgondog (Jul 14, 2012)

I supose for me, it would be the A-36. Without USAAF 'giving' NAA an opportunity to stay in the game when there were no procurement dollars left for fighters, the US P-51 production may have ended before RAF proved the merlin concept. It surely could have been started again but NAA would possibly have lost several months in getting the P-51B into ETO...


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## buffnut453 (Jul 14, 2012)

stona said:


> On those grounds you could choose any number of aircraft,even prototypes.
> I'd go for the Wright Flyer
> Steve



There's always one...and it's usually you, Steve!!!


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## Oreo (Jul 14, 2012)

stona said:


> I'm afraid I don't believe that your premise is correct,so I obviously can't vote
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve



The original premise did not intend to state that ALL the aircraft listed had a major affect on the war. It could be argued that many of the ones on the list did not. But they were included to give you a vast bunch of choices, and of course, the "other" selection.


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## stona (Jul 14, 2012)

Firstly surely noone thinks I was being serious about the Wright Flyer!

I was being serious about the original premise in the sense that I don't believe_ any _low production aircraft had a significant impact on WW2. Ultimately it was a numbers game and all the aircraft that had a meaningful effect were produced in large numbers.

I didn't think the original intent of the question called for the sort of extrapolation,backwards and forwards,which some of the answers have adopted. There's nothing wrong with that,I'm just saying that it is not how I understood the question.

For example the Manchester had no effect whatsoever on the course of WW2. It's descendant,the Lancaster,most certainly did but_ it is a different aircraft _and 7,377 doesn't fall into "low production".

Cheers
Steve


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## fastmongrel (Jul 14, 2012)

FW 200, if the LW had had a properly developed version in large numbers the Battle of the Atlantic could have gone very badly in 40 and 41. They were responsible for the development and introduction of a large class of vessel the Escort Carrier. Not sure any other on the list had even half the influence of the Condor.

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## stona (Jul 14, 2012)

fastmongrel said:


> FW 200, if the LW had had a properly developed version in large numbers the Battle of the Atlantic could have gone very badly in 40 and 41. They were responsible for the development and introduction of a large class of vessel the Escort Carrier. Not sure any other on the list had even half the influence of the Condor.



As I was typing my post above I was harbouring a niggling doubt about the Fw 200. 

Now you've gone and posted it I would find it hard to argue that it didn't have at least some kind of impact.

Cheers
Steve


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## Oreo (Jul 14, 2012)

fastmongrel said:


> FW 200, if the LW had had a properly developed version in large numbers the Battle of the Atlantic could have gone very badly in 40 and 41. They were responsible for the development and introduction of a large class of vessel the Escort Carrier. Not sure any other on the list had even half the influence of the Condor.



"Scourge of the Atlantic"

Good! Now that we have gotten that out of the way, how about cast your vote?


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## drgondog (Jul 14, 2012)

I considered it but candidly couldn't make a case for having a 'major impact'. I couldn't conceive of any of the list contributing to a major change in the fortunes, being the essential component in a winning campaign, etc.

The me 262 was low enough production to seem to fit but it also did not fit for the same reasons - and would have to be linked and compared to Meteor for similar comparisons... so I thought 'out of the box' and ignored the list.


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## davebender (Jul 14, 2012)

Produced in small numbers but they had a big impact on naval warfare in the North Atlantic and especially off Norway. Whenever a convoy to the White Sea got mauled He-115s, Bv-138s and Fw-200s were normally involved.


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## fastmongrel (Jul 14, 2012)

Oreo said:


> "Scourge of the Atlantic"
> 
> Good! Now that we have gotten that out of the way, how about cast your vote?



I did, have a look.


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## oldcrowcv63 (Jul 14, 2012)

I guess I'll go with the FW-200. Aside from it being a maritime patrol aircraft and is therefore a dark horse for influential in any competition, its presence and effectiveness in that role forced the allies to take steps to counter it. The Hurricat and the Grumman Martlet equipped escort carrier whose value was evidently judged by how well it countered the FW-200 threat. My second and third choices would be the Fairey Fulmar and perhaps F2A except that as effective as was the latter in Finn service it really didn't seem to have an impact on the war itself, unless it tied down Russian resources that might have been decisive elsewhere against the Nazis. That doesn't seem likely.


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## wuzak (Jul 17, 2012)

Well, it has to be the Fw 200 - for reasons stated by others.

Its impact on the war was far greater than its production numbers would suggest.


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## Outta Leftfield (Jul 30, 2012)

I voted for the Sunderland. 777 of these hefty seaplanes were built, as compared to 276 of the FW 200, and along with the greater numbers, the Sunderland was much better deployed, doing an excellent job throughout the war in the Anti-Submarine role. U-boat.net credits the Sunderland with 27 u-boat sinkings, and many u-boats that were not actually sunk were damaged, or kept down by the presence of the long-range Sunderland flying overhead. 
Short Sunderland - Aircraft - Fighting the U-boats - uboat.net
So I would argue that while the Condor _might_ have had a significant impact on the war, the Sunderland actually _did_.


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## Wildcat (Jul 31, 2012)

+1 for the Sunderland.


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## Rogi (Aug 1, 2012)

Where is the Hs.123?

That would get my vote 

*found it* *flys the Hs and harasses everyone to vote* Mahhhh *machine gun noise*


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## hurricane55 (Aug 2, 2012)

This poll was very hard to decide, but I think the P61 had the biggest impact on the war. It was effectively used as a night fighter in the European, Pacific, China-Burma, and Mediterranean theaters and it was a P61 that scored the last allied victory before VJ day.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 2, 2012)

Did it really have a greater effect on the war, then say some of the other choices. Not saying you are wrong, just conversing...


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## meatloaf109 (Aug 3, 2012)

I figure the Me. 163 had that "scare" factor going for it. As one of the "wonder-weapons" it's effect was more psychological than physical, but that can be more damaging in a short term way.


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## Timppa (Aug 4, 2012)

Silverplate modded B-29's, that were assigned to the 509th Composite Group. There were only 29 of them.
8)


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## hua052011 (Aug 6, 2012)

Hi,

Thanks very much for this comment. It help me to think about my ideals.

Tks again and pls keep posting.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 6, 2012)

Ideals?


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## JoeB (Aug 8, 2012)

Even a revolutionary fighter manufactured in too large numbers to make this list, the Me-262 (seems to be cut off generally below 1,000, though more Baltimores than that, or Me262's, were produced), didn't really make a big impact on the war in the end. A conventional fighter built in small numbers would have a much tougher time doing so; numbers were pretty important for single engine fighters.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the a/c which naturally appeal as top of this list in importance tend to be large maritime patrol/strike types, because that's a role where smaller numbers could accomplish more. 

I would say Fw 200, and the fact that around 1/3 as many were produced as Sunderlands acts in Condor's not Sunderland's favor if you look at the question as relative impact compared to numbers: the Sunderland didn't have 3 times the impact IMO. The Condor affected British stategy in the convoy war noticeably in its heyday and was nearly unique as a German weapon at the time. The Sunderland was one among many types of a/c and other resources going after U-boats in a relatively similar way. But I'd rate it No.2, with the other flying boats like 'Mavis', 'Emily' and perhaps Coronado following it.

After that, the category of British carrier a/c involved in small but not unimportant early campaigns might follow, Gladiator (especially adding in its significant land role in some small scale campaigns), Skua, Fulmar.

The USAAF needed a real night fighter in the Pacific lest Japanese night raids be a more serious nuisance against bomber bases in '44-45 particularly, and P-61 was there; but in ETO the P-61 just added a bit to Anglo-US nightfighter capabilities, and the US itself had less need of one.

I think the poll's initial question is valid, but also agree the follow up line "Some aircraft were built in small numbers but still had a sizable impact on the course of the war." might be an overstatement even for the winner, FW 200.

Joe


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## stug3 (Aug 29, 2012)

drgondog said:


> I supose for me, it would be the A-36. Without USAAF 'giving' NAA an opportunity to stay in the game when there were no procurement dollars left for fighters, the US P-51 production may have ended before RAF proved the merlin concept. It surely could have been started again but NAA would possibly have lost several months in getting the P-51B into ETO...



+1


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## nuuumannn (Aug 31, 2012)

Short Sunderland, because it carried out an unsung but vital and necessary role during WW2; maritime patrol. The Sundy was in production and service throughout the war and afterwards (service from 1938 to 1959). Even with the introduction of long range land based bombers in numbers, the Sundy's importance and contribution to Coastal Command did not diminish, this is why I choose it over the Fw 200, as effective as it was - the Fw ultimately proved unsuitable for the task due to structural weakness.

Also, although attacks by German maritime aircraft, including the Fw 200 on Allied shipping were devastating, they did little to change the inevitable outcome of the war, which was, as Steve put it, a numbers game and although the Sundy wasn't built in large numbers, its importance in the role it carried out throughout the entire war and afterwards, was considerable (the RNZAF operated them until 1967!). 

It is also worth remembering that if anything was going to knock Britain for six during both WW1 and WW2 it was Germany's submarines and the Sundy played not only a role in their detection and destruction (in WW2), but also in preventing attacks on merchant shipping by its very presense as a deterrent. I used to know a guy who flew maritime patrol sorties in Sundys and he said they were usually 90% boredom and 10% pant wetting adrenaline rush!


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## ShVAK (Oct 7, 2012)

Sunderland wins over Fw200, it served the entire war admirably in the anti-sub role while the Condor was withdrawn from most anti-shipping roles in mid-1941 despite the great losses it inflicted.


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## zoomar (Nov 7, 2012)

Hard, but I went with the Sunderland, for its role in Allied victory in the Battle of the Atlantic


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## VinceReeves (Mar 2, 2013)

Skua for me. The most effective Allied bomber during the Battle Of France, and it belonged to the Royal Navy.


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## Junglerot (Mar 25, 2013)

No love for Mavis and Emily? These Kawanishi sisters were the IJN's primary PBs during the war. I feel it's fair to lump them together because the two types totaled less than 1000 made. They fought from the Aleutians to the Solomons. The IJN's capacity to fight would have been significantly impaired without the Kawanishis.


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## Nig (Jul 6, 2013)

I was going to say Lysander for all the agents dropped into the field but over 1700 made then I was going to say the V2 rocket for all the strategic resources its production diverted from Germany's war effort but you know they made 3000 of them. That device almost lost Germany the war singlehandedly . Yes I know a bit sarcastic


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## pattle (Jul 22, 2013)

Im don't really think of the Sunderland as a low production aircraft, but being as it's on this list I'm forced to vote for it as it knocks spots off everything else. The Condor would have been my choice in the absence of the Sunderland.


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## GrauGeist (Jul 22, 2013)

The B-239 (F2A) of the Finnish Airforce would have left a dangerous void if it weren't available to them, even in the limited numbers that saw service. With a kill ratio of 32:1, it contributed greatly against the Soviets.


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## Nig (Oct 11, 2013)

Martin b10 bomber otherwise known as the Glenn Martin for its role of reconnaissance in the mederterainian that allowed the sinking of the Italian fleet in Taranto harbour where the Sunderlands were to slow and loud for the purpose. If the Italians were able to run the med it is difficult to see an allied victory, cut off from the Suez Canal .


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## Shortround6 (Oct 11, 2013)

Martin B-10







Martin Maryland or "Glen Martin" used in the Mediterranean.


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## Nig (Oct 11, 2013)

Thanks for the clarification shortround, I made an assumption when I heard about the machine and its value in the Med as to which one it was and did not dig deeper. Once again thanks


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## parsifal (Oct 16, 2013)

i think the fulmar. arrived just in time, when other allied naval fighters were either lacking the necessary performance, or were insufficiently developed to do the job that was needed. And in the kind of war that britain found itself after the fall of france through to the end of 1942, the britah absolutely had to put their fleet in harms way to deny the enemy the freedom of action they needed to conquer all the parts of the workd that they needed. i dont think it is any overstatement to claim that the fulmar prevented the axis from winning the war, or forcing the allies into a very tenuous situation

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## michaelmaltby (Oct 16, 2013)

"...The Condor would have been my choice in the absence of the Sunderland"


Agreed.


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## DonL (Oct 16, 2013)

"...The Condor would have been my choice in the absence of the Sunderland"


Also agreed.


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## The Artilleryman (Oct 17, 2013)

My vote is the Fw.200 based on the fact that the Allies used a lot of resources to develop ways to combat it. It was my choice before reading any of the above posts. Adios, Larry.


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## gjs238 (Dec 31, 2013)

Which aircraft did the Japanese use to reconnoiter the attack on Pearl Harbor?
How about Midway?


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## pbehn (Dec 31, 2013)

The Swordfish, crippled the Bismark and Italian fleet plus gave the Japanese the idea for Pearl harbour

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## oldcrowcv63 (Jan 1, 2014)

gjs238 said:


> Which aircraft did the Japanese use to reconnoiter the attack on Pearl Harbor?
> How about Midway?



Japanese cruiser Chikuma (1938) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"_At the crucial Battle of Midway, Chikuma and CruDiv 8 was in Vice Admiral Chuichi Nagumo's Carrier Striking Force. On 4 June, *Tone and Chikuma each launched two Aichi E13A1 "Jake" long-range reconnaissance floatplanes to search out 300 miles (480 km) for American carriers. *The Tone floatplane discovered American ships, but did not recognize that the fleet was a carrier group, which proved to be a crucial mistake. Chikuma's floatplane found the USS Yorktown, and shadowed the carrier for the next three hours, guiding the bombers that attacked Yorktown that evening. Two other floatplanes from Chikuma continued to observe the heavily damaged Yorktown through the night, during which time one plane and crew were lost. Chikuma then directed the submarine I-168 to find and attack the Yorktown the following morning._"


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## parsifal (Jan 1, 2014)

Jakes were really very versatile ship based float planes, that along with her later replacements enabled the japanese to retain a marked advantage in surface search capability almost to the end of the war.


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## tengu1979 (Jan 25, 2014)

Voted for Sunderland as it was quite vital in destroying U-Boat force.


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## Madelman (Sep 21, 2018)

parsifal said:


> i think the fulmar. arrived just in time, when other allied naval fighters were either lacking the necessary performance, or were insufficiently developed to do the job that was needed. And in the kind of war that britain found itself after the fall of france through to the end of 1942, the britah absolutely had to put their fleet in harms way to deny the enemy the freedom of action they needed to conquer all the parts of the workd that they needed. i dont think it is any overstatement to claim that the fulmar prevented the axis from winning the war, or forcing the allies into a very tenuous situation



I fully agree on the value of the Fulmar but after reading all the post I've voted for the Fw 200, I think that the response to it required a lot of resources 

If the poll would have been restricted to fighters then, yes, Fairey Fulmar


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