# UK Teachers to stop teaching the Holocaust...



## Gnomey (Apr 2, 2007)

...because it might offend the Muslims. This is going to far. Just because they believe in Holocaust denial doesn't mean you can't teach them something that happened just because it offends them...  

Teachers drop the Holocaust to avoid offending Muslims | the Daily Mail


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## Matt308 (Apr 2, 2007)

When will this madness end...


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 2, 2007)

What a bunch of dumbasses...


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## Hunter368 (Apr 2, 2007)

Oh brother what BS.


When will the world not kissing the Muslim azz. This is sooooo stupid.



WAKE ****ING UP WORLD!!!


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## Erich (Apr 2, 2007)

people must be totally a sleep I caught this news if you want to call it that yesterday. the Muslims are laughing, grinning and rubbing their hands and before you know it England will be under their thumb unless some brave souls step up and do some heavy exporting real soon


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## Matt308 (Apr 2, 2007)

Anyone see that movie, Children of Men?

Man, the illegals marching through the burned out streets of the UK chanting Allah Akbar was really disturbing. Reminded me of the Latinos marching in the US flying foreign flags.


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## Erich (Apr 2, 2007)

same application Matt as far as I am concerned. The hostage thing right now will be talked to death ;someone in the British parliment is going through making promises that cannot be kept or being ruled by the Iranians so they get their wishes

this is all a sick joke


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## Matt308 (Apr 2, 2007)

Sounds like Al Franken is negotiating here. This guy is actually running for US Senate.


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## bigZ (Apr 2, 2007)

Lest We Forget?


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## Matt308 (Apr 2, 2007)

..or try to forget.


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## Ajax (Apr 2, 2007)

We get a new prime minister in the summer;




At least he's a bit more butch than the last one...




Poof


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 3, 2007)

Oh brother I cant believe this ****! **** the Muslims allright. If they dont like the way things are run in the UK they need to go back to the sand box.


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## Matt308 (Apr 3, 2007)

These will really piss you off then Adler:

This case is in fact several months old, but I didn't get around to translating it until now.This is partly because there is an ongoing "Taxi Jihad" in Oslo, but I decided I will follow this up later as matters unfold. Muslim taxi drivers demand a separate prayer room at Oslo Airport, where they can pray during working hours, but have received a negative answer. The leader of the Somali Taxi Association, Ali Hassan, finds this discriminating and unacceptable, and is planning a law suit over the matter: "We think we have a right to pray during working hours. We demand to get a room where we can perform prayers, without losing our spot in the taxi queue."

This is similar to a case in the USA recently, where 30 Muslim workers were fired for praying on job at Dell Computers. However, after CAIR and their Saudi-paid lawyers got involved, a settlement was reached in which the Muslim employees were reinstated, received back pay, and was granted religious accommodation. It seems as if demanding a prayer room at the work place is high in the Islamic agenda in Western nations these days.

At the same time as this is going on, blind people with their guide dogs are finding it increasingly difficult to get a taxi ride, and not just in the capital. In Oslo, Muslims make up such a high percentage of cab drivers that it can be hard to obtain a taxi during Islamic holidays.


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## Matt308 (Apr 3, 2007)

Star Tribune - Katherine Kertsen

The taxi controversy at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport has caught the nation's attention. But the dispute may go deeper than the quandary over whether to accommodate Somali Muslim cabdrivers who refuse to carry passengers carrying alcohol. Behind the scenes, a struggle for power and religious authority is apparently playing out. ... 
When I asked Patrick Hogan, Metropolitan Airports Commission spokesman, for his explanation, he forwarded a fatwa, or religious edict, that the MAC had received. The fatwa proclaims that "Islamic jurisprudence" prohibits taxi drivers from carrying passengers with alcohol, "because it involves cooperating in sin according to the Islam." 

The fatwa, dated June 6, 2006, was issued by the "fatwa department" of the Muslim American Society, Minnesota chapter, and signed by society officials.


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## Matt308 (Apr 3, 2007)

Daily Mail

A Muslim minicab driver refused to take a blind passenger because her guide dog was "unclean". 

Abdul Rasheed Majekodumni told Jane Vernon she could not get into his car with the dog because of his religion.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 3, 2007)

Then fire him from being a taxi driver. 

I saw on the news as well that there were muslim store workers at super markets in the states that refused to ring up pork products for customers because it is against there religion.

THEN GO WORK SOMEPLACE ELSE!

We dont go to your country and demand that you change your ways for us. So quit doing it in our country. You are not the only religion and people in this country. If you dont like it leave!


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## mkloby (Apr 3, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Then fire him from being a taxi driver.
> 
> I saw on the news as well that there were muslim store workers at super markets in the states that refused to ring up pork products for customers because it is against there religion.
> 
> ...



You racist  What's actually not funny is that civil liberties groups actually believe that if you think that you are a racist/bigot.


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## Matt308 (Apr 3, 2007)

It's gonna bite us. Mark my words. Hope it doesn't affect my family. But sadly it already is.


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## Ajax (Apr 4, 2007)

There were some posters of 'scantily clad' ladies near a school in wolverhampton, and 200 Christians signed a petition to remove them. Nothing was done. Then though, weeks after, a total of 3 Muslims complained about the posters and they were removed.

It's an odd world. 50 years ago, it would have been the other way round...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 4, 2007)

mkloby said:


> You racist  What's actually not funny is that civil liberties groups actually believe that if you think that you are a racist/bigot.



I am no where even close to being rascist. I just hate mother****ers that want to change our country and lives because they dont like it. Well then go the **** back to where you came from!!!


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## R-2800 (Apr 5, 2007)

> I am no where even close to being rascist. I just hate mother****ers that want to change our country and lives because they dont like it. Well then go the **** back to where you came from!!!


I agree I don't believe you are being rasicst at all. People who come here and don't like the way things are being done can leave. you don't see us doing it to their country! The U.S. Government should not have to cater to a certain minority.


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## Negative Creep (Apr 5, 2007)

It does seem odd that if you live in an Arab state women must cover their head and you can't drink, yet Muslims in this country have no such regulations. I'm not saying abandon your culture completely, but you have to fit in with the indigenous customs. Although tbh I take anything reported in the Daily Mail with a large pinch of salt.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 5, 2007)

If you go to an Arab country (I spent 14 monts in Iraq and 2 months in Kuwait), you have to completely live to there customs and standards. I expect that and did not question it at all. I obeyed there customs as anybody in there country should. The difference is they leave there country and expect others to change to there customs and cater to them, that is bullshit!


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## Farley (Apr 5, 2007)

I seem to recall reading somewhere- can't remember the specifics, but the gist of it is that an RCMP officer in BC wanted to wear different headgear than the prescribed RCMP uniform cap. 

He took his case to court and won.

Now all Sikhs in the RCMP can wear their turbans while on duty.

Can someone confirm this for me? I think it outrageous if true- this climate of pandering to political correctness is out of hand.


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## mkloby (Apr 5, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I am no where even close to being rascist. I just hate mother****ers that want to change our country and lives because they dont like it. Well then go the **** back to where you came from!!!



I know, I know. I was being facetious. I think it's unfortunate that if you're unwilling to change your culture to accomodate immigrants, then you're the racist, especially in the left wing media's eye...


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## Ajax (Apr 6, 2007)

Recently, a woman working in British Airways (a christian) was told not to wear a cross on her necklace. While other employees wore turbans, veils etc. That's hardly fair.


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## mkloby (Apr 6, 2007)

Ajax said:


> Recently, a woman working in British Airways (a christian) was told not to wear a cross on her necklace. While other employees wore turbans, veils etc. That's hardly fair.



It's politically correct to trample Christians, but heaven forbid you do the same to a non-Christian. It's BS.


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## Njaco (Apr 6, 2007)

Muslims are the new communists. Years ago in HS I remember being taught how the Communists wanted to take over the world. Looks like the Muslims have figured out how. And we all will just sit and watch thanks to the ACLU and liberals. "Ohhh you're a minority and need help! Ohhhh" 

**** that!!!

I demand Iran allow foriegn tourists to wear bikinis!!!!


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## timshatz (Apr 6, 2007)

mkloby said:


> It's politically correct to trample Christians, but heaven forbid you do the same to a non-Christian. It's BS.



Christians don't suicide bomb and riot if Jesus's is dissed. If they did, the lefties would first call them facist, then appease. SOP.


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## timshatz (Apr 6, 2007)

Njaco said:


> I demand Iran allow foriegn tourists to wear bikinis!!!!



Have to be foriengers. Don't want to know (or see) what goes on under those burkas. Yeeeeesssshhhhh...


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## Njaco (Apr 6, 2007)

Quick! grab the no-pest strips!!


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## Matt308 (Apr 6, 2007)

timshatz said:


> Christians don't suicide bomb and riot if Jesus's is dissed. If they did, the lefties would first call them facist, then appease. SOP.



If they did, the lefties would be the first to be maimed.

Here's another one... Go Canada!

________________________________________________________

Quebec right on Muslims

While nobody was watching, Quebec quietly became the most self-confident province in the country. A series of events over the past few years have shown Quebec to be proud of its liberalism, proud of Western civilization and proud of itself. 

The latest involves the Quebec government giving a Muslim woman who wants to be a prison guard a choice: She could either remove her hijab or she could train to be a prison guard. But she could not do both. The woman chose the hjiab. 

Predictably, Muslim advocacy groups have been crying racism. “It is an ultimatum, remove the hijab or you’re out of here,” said the head of the Muslim Council of Britain. “That’s not a security issue, this is much more a bigoted issue.” 

The government stuck to its guns. 

“As a security measure, the hijab cannot be accepted as an element of the uniform to execute the functions of a correctional officer,” a department spokesman said. 

The Muslim Council called for compromise — something that covers the hair and neck that isn’t a hijab — but the government refused. 

This may seem unnecessarily rigid on the part of the government, but this is not an isolated issue. All across the Western world, Muslims are struggling to fit in, to balance the norms of liberal democracies with the requirements of their faith. 

The wisest thing all societies can do is say, right from the beginning, there will be no compromise on liberal values. Muslims deserve equal rights, not special rights. 

For that is what is being asked for here. The prison has a policy of not allowing headgear. This woman is saying her faith demands it and an exception should be made. If that is the case, then she must adapt, not Quebec. 

This incident follows a long line Quebec has faced with reasonably consistent resolve. First there was the attempt to use Islamic tribunals to settle family disputes. Next there was the adoption of a code of conduct for immigrants by the small towns of Saint-Roch-de-Mekinac and Herouxville. Finally, there was the soccer referee who ejected a player for wearing a hijab on the pitch, a violation of the province’s sports regulations. 

The Quebec government stood by principle and said yes to assimilation and integration and no to accommodation. 

The Canadian Islamic Congress had called for “Smart Integration,” a halfway measure between integration and segregation. 

What is smart is realizing the North American method of integration has worked for over a century. Canadians and Americans have welcomed and lived in relative harmony with immigrants since their founding. 

Where did Quebec get this confidence? According to the Toronto Star, experts say that it comes from an affinity with France and seeing how the French have had trouble with their Muslim citizens. 

I’m not so sure. I think it comes as much from fighting for the French-Canadian identity with English-Canadians for centuries. When one lives in a community that prizes identity and community solidarity, when one places importance on identity and heritage because this is the only way to survive, then one learns not to compromise. 

If, like the rest of Canada, one can take heritage and identity for granted, one becomes lazy with it and might not even mind giving it up. For a while. 

Then one realizes, according to the latest census, that by 2025 Canada will be a country made up by a majority of immigrants. All of a sudden, common liberal values and equal treatment become more important. When 2025 comes along, Quebec will be in the best position of all. 


ottawasun.com - Jordan Michael Smith - Quebec right on Muslims


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## mkloby (Apr 6, 2007)

Njaco said:


> Muslims are the new communists. Years ago in HS I remember being taught how the Communists wanted to take over the world. Looks like the Muslims have figured out how. And we all will just sit and watch thanks to the ACLU and liberals. "Ohhh you're a minority and need help! Ohhhh"
> 
> **** that!!!
> 
> I demand Iran allow foriegn tourists to wear bikinis!!!!



Islam has been trying to conquer the world since its inception. Look at the history of Islam - spread through the sword, beginning with mohammed. That said, there are the vast majority that don't wish to spread Islam through war, violence, and terror. Unfortunately, they are largely complicit as they stand by and do nothing to restrain or stop those that do...


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## timshatz (Apr 6, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> Here's another one... Go Canada!
> 
> ________________________________________________________
> 
> [/url]



Outstanding move on their part. Well done.


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## mkloby (Apr 6, 2007)

It's nice when governments show some balls. I'm tired of this bowing down to immigrants crap.


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## Farley (Apr 6, 2007)

According to Tom Clancy in _Every Man a Tiger_, serious issues arose concerning the composition of US Forces during the '91 Gulf War. Specifically, a great proportion of women fulfill roles in today's US Forces which formerly were considered the domain of men.

Issues such as the wearing of burkas, veils and other such bull****, not to mention restrictions on women driving vehicles, were going to be a huge problem when the buildup of US troops started in Saudi Arabia.

According to USAF general Chuck Horner (who co-authored the book with Clancy), the problem was solved when the Saudis agreed that when women were in uniform, they were no longer women but _soldiers_.

It seems that Islamic states can bend their own rules when it comes to saving their own asses, but when it comes to tolerance of other peoples' laws or rules, within free and open societies, these tolerances are nonexistent.

Islam is using our own concepts of freedom against us, and unless our governments start to wake up to this, it will only get worse.

Hats off to Quebec on that one.


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## Matt308 (Apr 6, 2007)

Okay, that's enough praise for French speaking Quebec in one day.


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## Farley (Apr 7, 2007)

Matt:

Believe me, praise for anything Quebec does comes seldom. I live in NB, the only "officially bilingual" province, and in my area there are very few Francophones. It's a bitter pill to see all publications in both French and English (mandated by law), all gov't documents, even road signs.

It's made even worse when Quebec's stance is that "every Province must be bilingual but Quebec must not". I betcha if the average Quebecker knew how many American tourist dollars they lost each year just by having unilingual French road signs, they'd change their tune in a big ***kin hurry.


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## Kilroy (May 2, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Then fire him from being a taxi driver.
> 
> I saw on the news as well that there were muslim store workers at super markets in the states that refused to ring up pork products for customers because it is against there religion.
> 
> ...


That happened right here in good old Iowa m8, F**kum, they can go back to whatever s**thole of a country they came from as far as i'm concerned, and good riddance


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## Maestro (May 2, 2007)

Farley said:


> Matt:
> 
> I live in NB, the only "officially bilingual" province, and in my area there are very few Francophones. It's a bitter pill to see all publications in both French and English (mandated by law), all gov't documents, even road signs.



Then you should get out of St-John more often... I've been to several cities/towns on the NB/Québec border, and most of them are full of Francophones. I've been there to try to find a job, and believe me, except for job interviews, I was asked to speak English only once... And it was to an hotel cashier who thought at first that I was English... Until I spoke in French to a tourist in front of her. I won't blame her, though. I thought she was English too. Oh, well...

Man, we are something like 10,000,000 (7,000,000 only in Québec) in a country of 30,000,000 of population. So give us a little more respect, okay ?


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## Maestro (May 2, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> If they did, the lefties would be the first to be maimed.
> 
> Here's another one... Go Canada!



I said it earlier... We don't only do bad things. We do a lot of bad things, but I must say that I'm pretty proud of our gouvernment's attitude in front of Muslims.


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## mkloby (May 2, 2007)

Maestro said:


> *Jumps across the window.*



Jumps across the window??? Out the window?


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## Maestro (May 2, 2007)

In fact, I didn't even took the time to open it...


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## CharlesBronson (Jul 25, 2007)

Reading news like this ( and others already posted by british members) one neutral observer might be inclined to think that the muslims controls the UK in more than one way.


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## Maestro (Jul 26, 2007)

That's political correctness that is killing us... They'll do everything to _not_ offend anyone. Thus pissing off the majority.

Weird things happening recently :

- Hassidim Jews asking a gym in Montréal to "freeze" their windows so they couldn't see the girls doing their workout.

- Muslisms little girls complaining about the fact they got disqualified from a Thai-Kwondo (?) competition because they were wearing a Hijab *during the fights*.

- Sikh boys going to school with Kirpans.

- Sikh truck drivers complaining about Montréal's port policy to force everyone working on the docks to wear an helmet... They prefer wearing their turbans.

- Muslisms college boys complaining about their school not giving them a room to pray.

- An Imam in Montréal being about to be deportated because he lied to Immigration Canada... He is making a Jihad out of it.


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## ToughOmbre (Jul 26, 2007)

Maestro said:


> That's political correctness that is killing us... They'll do everything to _not_ offend anyone. Thus pissing off the majority.



It's been a problem here for a long time. Read almost any American History textbook being used in elementary and high schools today and chances are you won't be able to recognize what country they are even talking about. Filled with politically correct, revisionist history, multi-cultural crap.


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## Cyrano (Jul 26, 2007)




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## timshatz (Jul 26, 2007)

Good.


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## CharlesBronson (Jul 26, 2007)

> Weird things happening recently :
> 
> - Hassidim Jews asking a gym in Montréal to "freeze" their windows so they couldn't see the girls doing their workout.
> 
> ...




That definately sucks.


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## Emac44 (Jul 27, 2007)

Nothing surprises me any more. Christians and Jews Discriminated against. The Holacaust being denied officially in England by teachers not wishing to insult Muslims. Regardless to the fact it may insult Jews which by itself are a minority group in parts of Europe. I am sick and tired of hearing and reading how Muslims get easily insulted. Jihadist insult me by their very being. I am sick of this crap but know it will continue


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## Konigstiger205 (Jul 27, 2007)

You know what..everyone should just go back where they came from!What should we changed our life stile just because of them.If one of us would go to live in an Islamic country I doubt they would change their traditions for us.


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## Maestro (Jul 27, 2007)

Emac44 said:


> The Holacaust being denied officially in England by teachers not wishing to insult Muslims.



Are you kidding ? The Holocaust is denied officially in England ? I never thought England would fall so low.


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## Konigstiger205 (Jul 27, 2007)

To deny probably Europe's most dark times and the event that shaped the world as we known it today is pure ignorance.No people in the world is or was perfect...everyone makes mistakes.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 27, 2007)

Maestro said:


> Are you kidding ? The Holocaust is denied officially in England ? I never thought England would fall so low.




No go back to page one and read the article that started this discussion. England is not denying the Holocaust. Teachers in England are refusing to teach about the Holocaust because they do not wish to offend the Muslims.


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## Emac44 (Jul 27, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> No go back to page one and read the article that started this discussion. England is not denying the Holocaust. Teachers in England are refusing to teach about the Holocaust because they do not wish to offend the Muslims.



OOops sorry Adler. I misread it. But all the same not to teach the Holocaust etc so as not to offend Muslims is Bizzare by these Teachers. But as I said I am tired of this Multicultural experiement that has been foisted onto society which has turned out to be the biggest farce in the history of mankind. it causes more division then its suppose to alliviate Adler. Is what I am saying. Here in Australia we use to say anything daft it could only happen in the USA. But we were wrong. Its happening every where


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## Cyrano (Jul 27, 2007)




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## bigZ (Jul 27, 2007)

I am suprised by teachers not trying to instill in the next generations a lesson from the past. Genocide is wrong wheteher you are gay/ jewish/ gypsy etc. 

After the recent atrocities in Bosnia and elsewhere you would think muslims would be intrested in drawing parrallels on lest we forget?

Mind you half of this cr*p is the PC brigade. Some PC local concil decided to pull down an angel(very old large landmark) in a mixed race graveyard dispite protests from various religous factions(including muslims) as they though it might offend.


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## Aussie1001 (Jul 27, 2007)

With us in Auz muslems are defently a problem however one thing that worries me even more are thes forign workers coming into the country. In America do you guys have something called a dole ? It's supposed to function as a system that supports people when they are out of work or going from one job to another. In Auz that payment is around $200 au per 2 weeks. The retarded thing is that some people live on it for their whole lives. Whats even worse it that at the current moment Austrailia is going through a mining boom. The result is that unskilled labour is getting over 100 000 per annum. And the job that we are most critically short on is enginers where in the first year working it the mines are getting over 150 000 a year. And we are importing indonesians on temporary visas to fill in the jobs.
Disgusting
i however must point out that our unemploymet rate is below 4%.


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## Robbie Roberts (Jul 28, 2007)

I am beginning to think that Christianity and Muslim are incompatible religious beliefs. Perhaps they should all go home, forcibly if necessary, and all non Muslims be returned from there. Then invent a vehicle which uses no gasoline, and let them go broke. Doesn't sound very enlightened, but, then again, neither are many of them. As to the original story, any teachers who adhere to such a policy should be fired, and made to work in the mines for such blatant stupidity.

Robbie


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## Aussie1001 (Jul 28, 2007)

hi guys sorry i went of topic for a bit there  
but i still can't believe it. The UK denying the holocaust     
That is cold however this is even colder

"Robbie Roberts I am beginning to think that Christianity and Muslim are incompatible religious beliefs. Perhaps they should all go home, forcibly if necessary, and all non Muslims be returned from there. Then invent a vehicle which uses no gasoline, and let them go broke. Doesn't sound very enlightened, but, then again, neither are many of them. As to the original story, any teachers who adhere to such a policy should be fired, and made to work in the mines for such blatant stupidity."


     
Good on you just solved all the terroist problems, let them go back to there own country and let them kill each other instead of themselves.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 28, 2007)

Aussie1001 said:


> but i still can't believe it. The UK denying the holocaust
> That is cold however this is even colder



Please before you just go and jump into a discussion please read all the posts (atleast the 1st post that starts the discussion). 

The UK is not denying the Holocaust and never has. The discussion is about *TEACHERS* refusing to teach the Holocaust because they do not want to offend the Muslims.


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## Aussie1001 (Jul 29, 2007)

he he opps (cower in corner)
Still it is cold how are you kids going to learn about a regime that killed millions of jews if they're teachers do tell them. I mean how many kids these days are interested in it ?
And weather we like it or not sooner or later all the vets that freed the extermination camps are going to be off to a better life. My grandfather served in WW2 and he is now over 80 in 20 years time i expect him to be long gone so how are a new generation going to learn about it.
Though apprantly the BBC has daily documentries on slogging the Nazis so maybe there is a hope.
By the way i heard from one of my teachers that when the pomes are going against the germans in Soccer (or football as you call it) the british supporters have a chant that goes like this 
_Two world wars and one world cup_ heh heh heh


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 29, 2007)

Aussie1001 said:


> _Two world wars and one world cup_ heh heh heh



Yeap and then the German fans chant back about how England has only won one World Cup where as Germany as won 3....

(and modern technology has shown that the goal that England scored that took the game to over time was not actually a goal and Germany should have one it fair and square 1-0)

Okay lets get back on topic here....


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## Emac44 (Jul 30, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Yeap and then the German fans chant back about how England has only won one World Cup where as Germany as won 3....
> 
> (and modern technology has shown that the goal that England scored that took the game to over time was not actually a goal and Germany should have one it fair and square 1-0)
> 
> Okay lets get back on topic here....



Oh hell Adler if you are going to debate bloody Soccer Games from 1966. Next we will get the Kiwis in going on about Greg Chappell and under arm bowling in cricket. Sorry Adler that is a regional Aussie Kiwi debate mate


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 30, 2007)

Fine by me, its all in fun.


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## Aussie1001 (Jul 31, 2007)

Emac44 said:


> Oh hell Adler if you are going to debate bloody Soccer Games from 1966. Next we will get the Kiwis in going on about Greg Chappell and under arm bowling in cricket. Sorry Adler that is a regional Aussie Kiwi debate mate



heh heh heh  
hear hear


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## drgondog (Jul 31, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> When will this madness end...



When you and me, and our kids and our friends and out acquaintences and our`teachers and our politicians say STOP! Enough is enough. Reverse the trendy political correctness and remember that blunt honesty is far better than kissing ass.


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## Emac44 (Aug 4, 2007)

drgondog said:


> When you and me, and our kids and our friends and out acquaintences and our`teachers and our politicians say STOP! Enough is enough. Reverse the trendy political correctness and remember that blunt honesty is far better than kissing ass.



Because if you used straight forward blunt honesty. You would hurt their tender little hearts and cause them all sorts of distress and bed wetting problems late at night Drgon. We can't as a society allow that to occur. Chinese laundry having to clean constantly Muslim bed sheets and do gooders Kaftans. Imagine the effect on the enviroment with the extra use of detergents being pumped into the local river system via sewage from all that loosened piss from upset Muslims and their do Gooder companions at night with the extra bed wetting going on mate. Poor little mites mate, have some sympathy because I BLOODY DON"T and you will have to make up for me the lack of sympathy I have for these bloody arseholes


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## Konigstiger205 (Aug 4, 2007)

Emac44 you are so right....like I said before if I or any of us would live in a Muslim country I doubt they would care if we were offend by something in their history or culture....


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## Lucky13 (Aug 9, 2007)

Haven't fully read this thread, I'll do that before I post anything. I just wanted to say that this reminds me of something that I read last year I think. I think that it was somewhere down south of the border (England) , that it was a town where some of the officials wanted to change the street names, because they could be offending to some people. Which were the street names they wanted to change you might wonder? Lancaster, Halifax, Stirling, Wellington and few others, just because they're "bomber" names....
What has the world come to?


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## Catch22 (Aug 17, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> Haven't fully read this thread, I'll do that before I post anything. I just wanted to say that this reminds me of something that I read last year I think. I think that it was somewhere down south of the border (England) , that it was a town where some of the officials wanted to change the street names, because they could be offending to some people. Which were the street names they wanted to change you might wonder? Lancaster, Halifax, Stirling, Wellington and few others, just because they're "bomber" names....
> What has the world come to?



That's ridiculous! It's the country's bloody history! Look, as a Canadian, I take pride in our multiculturalism. We should treat everybody equally. If you don't, you run into something like WW2. But it's supposed to be equal! But the Muslems want us to cater to their every wish. But they should get equality. Not special treatment. I have no issue in Sikhs wearing Turbans on the job as a police officer (they do it here too), but I do take exception to the fact that they are allowed to carry knives to school. I don't care what you want to wear, but your religious practices should stay in your house, or your church/mosque, w/e.


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## Aussie1001 (Aug 19, 2007)

Emac you might be able to back this up 'cause i'm not 100% certain but i'm fairly sure that there was a movement a while back to change the name of the Fairy Penguine because they thought it might be offending the gays....


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## Heinz (Aug 19, 2007)

Unfortunately most are missing the point, even in this thread.

This sort of history seems to be seen as something kids 'should learn about.

Truth of the matter is kids 'need' to learn about it.

Australian schooling system is pathetic in regards to history and war. No offence to the Americans but seem to cover more topics about your country than ours. Thanks to my already keen reading and historical interests I sought out my own info.

A number of people in my family have served in WW1, WW2 and in peace time. 

The general consensis is no one seems to give a rats over all. 

This depresses me but also alarms me to the fact if we forget we do not learn. If we don';t learn the same mistakes will repeat.

Respect is disappearing at an alarming rate, however by the people in this forum and others it does show there is still enough people to care and carry the legacy on. 

Cheers


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## Hop (Aug 21, 2007)

> Yeap and then the German fans chant back about how England has only won one World Cup where as Germany as won 3....
> 
> (and modern technology has shown that the goal that England scored that took the game to over time was not actually a goal and Germany should have one it fair and square 1-0)



Whilst it really pains me to defend the England football team, the controversial goal was England's third.

Germany scored first, England then got 2 clear goals. Germany then got an equaliser in the final minute of normal time. This was a bit controversial, as England claimed a German player had handled the ball. 

The match then went in to extra time. England scored the controversial goal after about 10 minutes, then scored again right at the end of extra time, taking the score to 4 - 2.

So even without the disputed goal, the match would have played out the same, although of course having a lead for about 20 minutes of extra time might have given England more confidence.

As to Holocaust education, it is a compulsory subject for ages 13-14 in British schools. What the original press story didn't make clear was that this school dropped the Holocaust as a subject for pupils over the age of 14. At 14 children drop some subjects and specialise in others, history is one of those that many drop, with only about a third studying it from 14 onwards.

The Holocaust Educational Trust has some facts on the case, which they put forward because of the inaccurate media speculation:
The Holocaust Educational Trust

When reading stories from the British newspapers, it's important to realise that the story they report isn't quite the same as the truth, because fiction is a bit more interesting, and can sell more newspapers.

One school choosing not to select the Holocaust as an optional subject for older children, whilst still teaching it to children up to the age of 14, isn't quite as good a story as "schools to stop teaching Holocaust".


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## Emac44 (Sep 1, 2007)

Aussie1001 said:


> Emac you might be able to back this up 'cause i'm not 100% certain but i'm fairly sure that there was a movement a while back to change the name of the Fairy Penguine because they thought it might be offending the gays....



Sorry Aussie can't help you with that one. But it wouldn't surpirse me. I mean to say how would the average Fairey Penguin feel mate being associated with the Gay MartiGrae in Sydney each year. Hell where are the Fairey Penguins rights mate to live a normal life free from discrmination with gays and lesbians making a mockery of Fairey Penguin lifestyle and choices with a street parade down the streets of Sydney. I SAY WE STRIKE FOR THE RIGHTS OF THE FAIREY PENGUIN AND WE DO IT NOW BEFORE ITS TO LATE


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## david johnson (Oct 7, 2007)

i do not care if they are upset or not. their s*** stinks like everyone else's.
they are exhibiting no decency toward the blind, etc., and must never be coddled to.
their freedom of religion in the usa does not include putting others at risk. that blind person may need to get to the pharmacist via cab.

dj


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## majorwoody10 (Oct 25, 2007)

ive often seen sihks in public places but have never seen a sign of a knife ,are these knives large like a bowie kife or can they carrie a small swiss army knife in their pocket and still be kosher?


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## Maestro (Oct 25, 2007)

Here is the standard size of a kirpan (some can be bigger, some smaller).

Note : The kid pictured is the one who sued the Canadian gouvernment for not allowing him to bear his knife in school.


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## mkloby (Oct 25, 2007)

We had some sikhs in our school growing up - none packed steel.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 26, 2007)

Knifes dont belong in school. Ceremonial or not...


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## Royzee617 (Nov 1, 2007)

I agree, everyone should have a choice. My kids do GCSE history and are sick of being told about Hitler. My son was peeved because they don't cover the battles.... it's all BS. Maybe the teachers are sick of it as well year after year...
Don't get me wrong about this but I am fed up of them harping on about the jewish side. My dad lost his parents in Auschwitz and a lot of friends et al who were catholics but it's always about the jews. The nazis wanted to do away with everyone who stood in their way, muslims would probably have been represented in Auschwitz as well.
The upshot is everyone should be more tolerant of our cosmopolitan society. Give and take so we can all get along on this increasingly crowded planet.


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## Derfman (Dec 19, 2007)

This crap is so common these days....

For the record, I'm in the process of changing careers, from USAF Emergency Management to Teaching (Masters degree for teaching History).

Job be damned, I WILL cover the Holocaust, and I will raise holy hell if my boss tells me to stop.

Having said that, this sort of thing CAN be done even in difficult settings...

Case in point, when I was doing my Internship, another older Intern teacher at a different school was suspose to teaching the Holocaust, but he had German exchange students in his class, and was not sure how to proceed. While its easy to just say "teach it", HE had to teach something that could cause those kids some serious discomfort.

What I told him:

#1: DON'T dodge the issue (he was not trying to, but still, he had some concerns, and rightly so).

Then I suggested he make a major theme of his lesson the point that INDIVIDUALS can still make moral decisions in spite of were they might find themselves. I handed him my copy of "The Rape of Nanking", which had the Nazi Ambassador as the unlikely hero, and then there is Oscar Schindler, The Society of The White Rose, and so on.

I spent two days on LOAC (Law of Armed Conflict) in my classes. My personal objective was to get across the idea that there is a difference between a piece subhuman crap that sets off a bomb at a sidewalk cafe (suicide or not.....), and a soldier that shoots at an opposing soldier but hits a civilan in the crossfire. One is to be honored, and the other is not even really human.

For the record, I know that calling someone "subhuman" disturbs some folks, but stop and think about a key point: Is it based on the way the folks are, or on the DECISIONS they make?
When some pervert sets off a bomb at a side walk cafe, or rapes and kills a young child for their sick pleasure, I REFUSE to accept them as human, and I'll say that out loud, and with force. They don't even rate being called "animals".
You DO, however, give them a fair trial, NOT because they "deserve it" (they don't), but because rule by law is important, because WE deserve rule by law. Also, equally important, to be as sure as humanly possible that you have right suspect. Even when it looks REALLY clear cut, law by the numbers, even for the worst offenders.


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## Derfman (Dec 19, 2007)

Royzee617 said:


> I agree, everyone should have a choice. My kids do GCSE history and are sick of being told about Hitler. My son was peeved because they don't cover the battles.... it's all BS. Maybe the teachers are sick of it as well year after year...
> Don't get me wrong about this but I am fed up of them harping on about the jewish side. My dad lost his parents in Auschwitz and a lot of friends et al who were catholics but it's always about the jews. The nazis wanted to do away with everyone who stood in their way, muslims would probably have been represented in Auschwitz as well.
> The upshot is everyone should be more tolerant of our cosmopolitan society. Give and take so we can all get along on this increasingly crowded planet.



When I've dealt with the holocaust one of the first questions I ask is "How many "people" were murdered in the holocaust? Its sad how often I hear 6,000,000. One point I beat into heads: If you forget the roughly 5,000,000 people that died along side the Jews, how long until the 6,000,000 follow them to forgetfulness?
Jewish organizations should NEVER say 6,000,000 unless they use 11,000,000 in the same breath. If you can forget 5,000,000, forgetting 6,000,000 is not a hard step.


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## Udet (Dec 19, 2007)

Do not forget the ~20 million human beings that died due to bolshevik policies in the USSR.


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## Derfman (Dec 19, 2007)

Udet said:


> Do not forget the ~20 million human beings that died due to bolshevik policies in the USSR.



Oh, trust me, I know, and state, that Mr. Hitler was #3 on the 20th century butcher parade.

About the only defense I give Communism is that the theory it is based on a yearning for "fairness", but the theory put into practice was worse than what it replaced. "Fairness" is a dangerous word, even if you should strive for it.

One interesting compare and contrast I've always liked are the transformations to democracy in the U.S., France and Britain. The British was complex, arguably the most peaceful, and over the most time. The U.S. revolution had some violence, but surprisingly mild compared to many civil wars, then and now. The French had an UGLY period of terror and state sponsored murder, then some war, etc, but at the end, after a few starts and stops, they had a proper and free democratic state (for the record, Napoleon is one of those figures in history that I love and hate at the same time (and I often excuse many of his flaws due the situations he was in), but I have nothing but contempt for the terror, regardless of how it came to pass).


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## Maestro (Dec 19, 2007)

For my personnal knowledge, if you put Hitler in third place of the "20th century butcher parade", who is in first and second ?


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## Derfman (Dec 19, 2007)

Maestro said:


> For my personnal knowledge, if you put Hitler in third place of the "20th century butcher parade", who is in first and second ?





#1 Mao
#2 Stalin

If you REACH, you can argue for some others, but it starts getting feeble REALLY fast. Rachel Carson for example. You can argue with 100% truth that she had a major part in about 100 million 3rd world malaria deaths, due to her part in banning DDT, but its just not the same. In spite of what some folks say, I don't believe she "intended" that. I believe she "intended" to get less chemicals in the environment, and she was just stupid about it. Mao and Stalin however had a pretty good idea about what they were doing, and were rather direct about it.

Other suggest contenders for the top 3 slots are even feebler (such as western capitalism killing more people than Hitler....)


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## Njaco (Dec 20, 2007)

Derfman, I like your posts. I would have placed Stalin at #1 but whose to quibble. I agree those 3 are the worst.

When did school leave the field of truth and fall into the quagmire of revisionist ideas? It kills me when I hear this crap.


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## krieghund (Feb 8, 2008)

Remember the Head Iman dude from Palestine (previous to 66BC was known as Judea until some roman couldn't pronounce philistine and the name stuck) made a deal with Hitler just as the war was begining to throw in their support for the 3rd Reich and then diappeared for a while when Germany lost. They did a similar thing in kuwait when Sadam rolled in, they fingered all the important kuwatis who were hung, shot or beheaded and then the Iraqis lost and history repeated itself again. I live and work in Saudi and I could fill volumes....by the way gas is only $.41 per gallon here


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## Adolf Galland Fighter ace (Feb 14, 2008)

Well I guess I can say their are no Muslim members here?
Just a thought but by denying them there right to believe if the Holocaust happened is that not the reverse of saying it did happen? or saying their anti Semitic! and racial slurs!, hate, the same as what the Jews have reminded us regularly they face daily. What difference? 

* OK before I ruffle any ailerons I agree they should put any Muslim on the first boat back to what ever place we decide fit. Islam is a global threat and we don't seem as a people to understand, or just don't care.* 

_I read most posts but if I have repeated any post it was not meant_


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## Njaco (Mar 3, 2008)

> Just a thought but by denying them there right to believe if the Holocaust happened is that not the reverse of saying it did happen? or saying their anti Semitic! and racial slurs!, hate, the same as what the Jews have reminded us regularly they face daily. What difference?



No really sure what you're getting at but the difference? Its as big as right from wrong. It begins with morals and a gut feeling that you're being crapped on.

Do you like it when muslims have the right to wear head scarfs in courts, in the military, in almost anywhere but you can't wear shorts to school?

Do you like the United Negro College Fund, Black Miss America or Affirmative Action but can't be openly proud of your race?

Do you like illegal aliens who come across the border, can get health care, go to schools, not pay taxes, have organizations to provide lawyers for you and get a drivers license and you get a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt?

Isn't wonderful to see Louis Farrakhan spout hate and filth and lies while you can be sent to jail for painting a swatiska?

Its a cry for fair play and not everyone is playing by the rules. Of all those groups who shout the loudest, the Jewish faith have a right to focus on their plight - going back to Spain and the Bible. 

Muslim countries like Iran shout there is no holocaust because they're racists, bigoted idiots. Its reverse racism and discrimination unlike the percieved slights against other minorities and religions.



> Well I guess I can say their are no Muslim members here?



This being an international forum, I'm sure Muslims would be welcome here as long as they show respect to everyone else regardless of religon or personal opinion. But I can't see that happening. Don't know any muslim who is that forgiving.


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## Lucky13 (Mar 15, 2008)

Pol Pot and Idi Amin will probably be in the top 10....
With some of that I've read...I fear that history will repeat itself thanks to all the f*cking f*annies and idiots that run the scool system today and those pain in the *rse w*nkers that's running this with political correctness sh*te...
You can't teach without telling and showing the truth and by doing so, it won't be political correct, because you might offend someone....!
Why don't you all go and f*ck your neighbours dog you bl**dy two timing no good f*cking *ssholes...!!!


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## Njaco (Mar 15, 2008)

I think you just said what I did but in a slight ruffian way!


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## Lucky13 (Mar 16, 2008)

....and I was being polite and political correct about it....


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## Adolf Galland Fighter ace (Mar 22, 2008)

I guess this is my point quickly, if only Jews can speak of the Holocaust which is there freedom then why can't another disagree? Like the way it seems today all can have there opinion but whites, what ever we say or believe is raciest, at least from where I look. IMHO


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 23, 2008)

Adolf Galland Fighter ace said:


> I guess this is my point quickly, if only Jews can speak of the Holocaust which is there freedom then why can't another disagree? Like the way it seems today all can have there opinion but whites, what ever we say or believe is raciest, at least from where I look. IMHO



I dont quite understand what you are getting at.

How can anyone disagree that the Holocaust happened?


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## Lucky13 (Mar 23, 2008)

Bit confused myself mate....holocaust happened...end of story.


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## Adolf Galland Fighter ace (Mar 23, 2008)

No disputing the holocaust, tons of film and text on the subject, just saying we don't like everyone else seems to be able to do what they want, but if a white person looks the wrong way it is discrimination, yet many blacks and Muslims say and want to live in a different country but expect us too bow to there every wish.
Rap that if reversed would get a white person arrested is cool and nothing said or done.
My point is we want the right to freedom of speech or thought and don't have in reality but when I think it was Iran that said there was no holocaust we want to drop a nuke on them. 
We can disagree as is are right but they too have right to speak, even if there are no moral values.
It's the difference between civilized and Neanderthal thinking.

I hope this makes more sense on what I'm trying to say, I can't express any other way to put it.
The fact America has a Kosher tax I think shows the belief without any doubt the Holocaust happened.


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## Njaco (Mar 24, 2008)

What is a Kosher tax?


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## Lucky13 (Mar 24, 2008)

*From Wikipedia...*

The "Kosher tax" (or "Jewish tax") is a canard or urban legend spread by antisemitic, white supremacist and other extremist organizations such as the National Alliance and Ku Klux Klan. It refers to the claim that food producers must pay an exorbitant amount to obtain the right to display a symbol on their products (often a K or U in a circle) that indicates it is kosher or pareve, and that this cost is passed on to consumers through higher prices which constitute a “kosher tax”. Additional false claims are made that this “tax” is “extorted” from food companies wishing to avoid a boycott, and used to support Zionist causes or the state of Israel.

Racist groups encourage consumers to avoid this “Jewish tax” by boycotting kosher products, or by requesting a refund from the government on their income taxes. In 1997 the Canada Revenue Agency issued a news release noting the existence of flyers recommending that consumers claim a deduction on their taxes "because they supposedly contributed to a Jewish religious organization when they purchased these groceries." In it Jane Stewart, the Minister of National Revenue stated "The intent and message in this literature is deeply offensive to the Jewish community and, indeed, to all Canadians. The so-called ‘deduction' described in these flyers does not exist and I urge all taxpayers to ignore this misleading advice."

The actual cost to the consumer is generally minuscule; in 1975 the cost per item for obtaining kosher certification was estimated by The New York Times as being 6.5 millionths (0.0000065) of a cent per item for a typical product. This is more than offset by the advantages of being certified. Certification leads to increased revenues of sales by opening up the additional markets such as Jews who keep kosher; Muslims who keep halal; and vegans, Seventh-day Adventists, and the lactose intolerant who wish to avoid dairy products (products that are certified as pareve may meet this criterion). According to Berel Wein, “The cost of kashrut certification is always viewed as an advertising expense and not as a manufacturing expense.” Dispellers of the “kosher tax” legend argue that if it were not profitable to obtain such certification, then food producers would not engage in the certification process, and that the increased sales resulting from kosher certification actually lower the overall cost per item.

Obtaining certification that an item is kosher is a voluntary business decision made by companies desiring additional sales from consumers (both Jewish and non-Jewish) who look for kosher certification when shopping, and is actually specifically sought by marketing organizations within food production companies. The fees charged for kosher certification are used to support the operation of the certifying bodies themselves, and not Zionist causes or Israel.


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## Gundrium (Mar 26, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> If they did, the lefties would be the first to be maimed.
> 
> Here's another one... Go Canada!
> 
> ...



You know... it's pretty bad when America/france's bastard child is doing more about racial inequality then EITHER COUNTRY!!!
A sad day indeed...


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## Gundrium (Mar 26, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Please before you just go and jump into a discussion please read all the posts (atleast the 1st post that starts the discussion).
> 
> The UK is not denying the Holocaust and never has. The discussion is about *TEACHERS* refusing to teach the Holocaust because they do not want to offend the Muslims.



Refusing to teach it is THE SAME AS DENING IT!!! By refusing to teach it they are fundumentaly 'forgeting' it ever happened by never letting their children know it happened!! YES< THEY ARE tring to deny it's presence!!


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## plan_D (Mar 26, 2008)

Correct me if I'm wrong but did you just refer to Canada as the United States and France's "bastard child"? Is that ignoring Great Britain's involvement in the creation of the nation?


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## Njaco (Mar 26, 2008)

How about staying on our shores and worry about how the schools deny the existance of God, since you're on a teaching rant.


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## Arsenal VG-33 (Mar 26, 2008)

Gundrium said:


> You know... it's pretty bad when America/france's bastard child is doing more about racial inequality then EITHER COUNTRY!!!
> A sad day indeed...




Actually, the French decided they could get around the Hijab problem by enforcing the country's secular laws and banning ALL religious symbols (which by French definition, include the Hijab) from public state buildings - including schools, libraries, hospitals, and any service involving the tax payer's money. I'm willing to bet thats more than what the US is doing.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 26, 2008)

Gundrium said:


> Refusing to teach it is THE SAME AS DENING IT!!! By refusing to teach it they are fundumentaly 'forgeting' it ever happened by never letting their children know it happened!! YES< THEY ARE tring to deny it's presence!!



Please go back and read my post before you go and off on a half cocked rant like that, allright buddy.

I said that the *UNITED KINGDOM* Was not denying anything but the *Teachers* were.

What the *Teachers* do is one thing, but the government of the *UNITED KINGDOM* is not and has not denied the Holocaust ever.

*Do you understand now, or do I have to make myself more clear. Everyone else seemed to understand it without a problem especially since my post that you are quoting is 8 MONTHS OLD!*


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## Njaco (Mar 26, 2008)

It does seem like the French are doing more than the US Arsenal. I think the US can't get its act together when it comes to that. The flurry of lawsuits around Xmas about the Manger and other Christian objects while upholding Kwanza and others smacks of the very discrimination that they dislike. So they go the opposite way and start calling it Happy Holidays or the Festival tree. I cringe at times from all this.


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## Arsenal VG-33 (Mar 26, 2008)

Njaco,

Well, all hope is not lost: There was that recent case of the muslim woman in Florida who insisted on wearing her Hijab for her ID photo on her driver's license. I do believe a judge ruled against her in this case, so it's a start. An ID photo is simply the wrong place to wear a veil, and against the whole point of having a valid ID system. Good to see Florida get the idea, now they need to make a federal issue of it.


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## Njaco (Mar 26, 2008)

I would move to Florida but I don't like driving 35mph! 

Good to hear somebody is using some rational thought and not going on emotion alone.


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## Freebird (Mar 26, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I dont quite understand what you are getting at.
> 
> How can anyone disagree that the Holocaust happened?



Apparently the President of Iran can. 

And many other countries "overlook" their past actions. {Japan, Turkey etc}


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## Gundrium (Mar 27, 2008)

Njaco said:


> How about staying on our shores and worry about how the schools deny the existance of God, since you're on a teaching rant.



YES!!! WTF?!?! What happened to america's F*[email protected]'in BACKBONE?!?!?

WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE MAJOR POWERS OF YESTERYEAR? Yes, it WAS a good thing that the soviet union disbanded, But what about Britian? What about America? Two of the most POWERFUL nations in the world are bending over backwards!! For What? A couple of freaks with towels wrapped around their heads? (YES, I DO know they are NOT towels, but YOU look at one and tell me with a streight face that's not what it LOOKS like...)

Oh, and yes, britian DID have a large influence on canada, I just took the two largest influences, cause it's kind of hard for three beings to have one child...

I appologise for anything incorrect I have or will say.


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## Njaco (Mar 27, 2008)

No need to apologize, just tone it down alittle.

What happened? One word. 

Democrats.

The mindset of liberal policies started in the '30s with FDR's New Deal, where government took on the role of curing society's ills. And ever since then the culture has changed from one of "let me get my feet planted first before helping others" to "We have to save the world".

The topic of teaching religion.
the liberal ideals allowed an influx of groups like the ACLU and others to challenge everything we do, all in the name of Consitutional liberties. Prayer in school, God on governement currency, all of the christian values and symbols were challenged and attacked. Except those of the minority or foreign cultures. You can bash Christ all you want but don't say anything about muslim, hindu or (at times) judaism or any other religion.

Its a mindset.

The New Deal brought it on, the '60s brought it on, feminism brought it on, enviornmental awareness, ERA, the Civil Rights, etc, etc, etc. Its all how the US population looks at things. Not if it is the right thing to do but does it FEEL like the right thing to do.

Case in point: Iraq.
Now if we ignored the human rights violations, the bullying, the atrocities that Suddam was fostering and practicing, the liberal portion of our country would be up in arms to do something. Sound familiar? Sudan, Somalia, Bosnia?

But instead of going in and correcting things the way they should have been, now we have a 5 plus year conflict (not a war because that ended years ago) where everybody has to double think their actions. Would we be talking about waterboarding if it was against japanese POWs in WWII? Abu Gharib? Gitmo? All this is wearing on the people because liberals have no clue about the real world. Ask a WWII Pacific vet if he hesitated shooting a jap soldier. Sure he regrets it, probably still remembers what it was like, but at that moment he wasn't thinking of the enemies' civil rights or how that bullet would change world politics.

So complain all you want, this is the liberal mindset achieving its goal of consolidating power and keeping the populace dumb. Go ahead, elect more liberals.

And are you saying that the UK and US should disband? Here's something I was taught in school: When you disarm the most powerful, you automatically make every 3rd world country a major power. When the US is on the same level as, say, Cuba or Venezuela, well, gear up, because the wars won't wait for you! I notice you didn't mention China or North Korea! I guess those are ideals powers for you.


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## Udet (Mar 27, 2008)

freebird said:


> Apparently the President of Iran can.
> 
> And many other countries "overlook" their past actions. {Japan, Turkey etc}



And what about Israel´s past and present actions? Do teaching programs in England cover Israeli Bolshevik/Nazi-styled practices, policies and crimes against arabs in the bloody region where all those fundamenlists live? I think not...


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## Njaco (Mar 27, 2008)

Udet, are you talking about the rockets that Hamas keeps lobbing over into Israel?

Its what came first - the chicken or the egg?


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## Udet (Mar 28, 2008)

Njaco, hello...

Well everytime some of those occassional "katyushas" are launched neighboring arabs get Israeli tanks, artillery, helicopters and jets in retaliation.

I do not favor any of these "combatants". Both sides are abominable.


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## Njaco (Mar 28, 2008)

Well I don't know how "occasional" they are to get a response such as you described, Udet. And yes, both sides are to blame but I will tend to blame the Arabs for continuing to foster a hate against Isarel and to do everything in its power to destroy that nation regardless of humanity or peace treaties. And the stupid media here plays right along.

I don't get this out and out hatred of Isarel while the Arabs suicide bomb, toss rockets, hold terrorist camps, etc, etc, etc. And all we get are images on TV of bloody arab bodies. But nothing about Munich, Tenefrie, and hundreds of other acrocities that arab terrorists have caused all around the world - all the while pointing a finger at Isarel. Bloodthirtsy hypocrites are all they are.


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## plan_D (Mar 29, 2008)

I won't get into the Israel vs. Arab debate; I think my views are well known. As for the French actions - they do seem to react better to this new threat to Western society ... they send them all to Britain through the Channel Tunnel.


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## Njaco (Mar 29, 2008)

Wish we had the luck! When this happens here we send OUR citizens to Canada!


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## Kruska (May 26, 2008)

*Quote Njaco: Bloodthirtsy hypocrites are all they are.*

Not really Njaco, what makes you think so?

Let us not forget, that the original Palestinians were merely trying, later fighting to get back their country / land which was taken away from them in 1947. 

That now 60 years later no one is able to distinguish anymore between right and wrong after all the wrong doings on both sides is easy to understand. Both sides have their religious trouble makers or fundamentalists. That politicians and power greedy or revenge seeking persons are making use of this chaotic situation is also understood.

I have met several Israeli soldiers who hold more grudge against Jewish Orthodox fundamentalists then against the Arabs or Palestinians.

It was the Jews who used terrorism to gain hold of Palestine - now Israel - via their terrorist organization “Hagganah”, "Lehi" and “Irgun”, The Palestinians merely copied these organizations via PLO, Al Fatah and Tanzim.

After 4 unsuccessful wars between the Arabs and Israel starting from 1973 onward, Islamism starts to influence or even take over the political leadership in many Arab or Muslim countries culminating in a 9/11.

Enemy No. 1 is off course the USA since it is understood that without the massive support from the US, Israel could not have won and would have had to return 55% of its territory to the Palestinians.

The US aggression towards Iraq (2nd Gulf war) certainly did not help to ease the tension in the world, neither the muscle play against Iran or vice versa. 

So IMO the topic Holocaust should not end with 1945 but needs to be continued at least until 1948 and it should be taught that almost 20% of the Jewish population in 1947 were actually deported Egyptian Jews - refugees - which had been sent into Palestine during Rommel’s approach to Egypt and that 600,000 Jews in contra to 1,400,000 Palestinians were given 55% of the territory in 1947.

And that IIRC the Holocaust survivors were actually supposed to be resettled in Australia.  

Njaco and other readers please try to ignore the “Flag” under my avatar.

Regards
Kruska


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## Trebor (May 27, 2008)

thye ******* who thought that **** up must be a nazi ¬¬ bastard.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 27, 2008)

What????

You could try and be a bit more readable.


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## Trebor (May 27, 2008)

I did read it. but I judt don't see how the hell teaching the Holocaust could be offensive to muslims. I mean, 12 million men, women, and children were murdered for who they were. how can schools teaching that be offensive? I really don't get it.


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## Njaco (May 27, 2008)

Kruska, I agree with much of what you post and I will admit to having a very limited knowledge of what exactly is going on over there. But this I do know. the jewish race has been thrown about as the scrourge of mankind since the time of Christ. And the Muslim religion gets a pass. Thoughout history it wasn't screaming, cut-throat hordes of jews invading Europe or any civilization at the time. I see that as very unfair especially if we wnat to talk historical aspects.

But if forgo all that, you are so correct about both sides being wrong and wronged. But what side gets the sympathy? While Hamas lobs shells into Israel and Israel respond its images of dead Paletinians that we get on the nightly news, not the dead jews that the palenstinians brought.

But some of your post concerns me.



> The US aggression towards Iraq (2nd Gulf war) certainly did not help to ease the tension in the world, neither the muscle play against Iran or vice versa.



I agree it did not help to ease the tension in the world but what tension would there be in the future if Iran was ignored? When bullies and dictators are ignored atrocities occur and then you have the world asking why nothing was done, where was the US. Its a Catch -22.



> Enemy No. 1 is off course the USA



And why is that? Is it because when things happen in the world, everyone looks to the US. Disasters, genocides, coups, etc - the US will fix all and when we can't, we get the blame "The US is hateful, terrorist, etc" I'm sick of how the world extends one hand to us for help and slaps us in the face with the other. And I'm upset with our politicians who continue to drag us down with these global handshakes and policing.

And forgive me, but I don't know what is wrong with your flag. Is there a problem?

And Plan, you forgot that if they can't send them to Britain they give them sanctuary on the Riveria.


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## Haztoys (May 28, 2008)

Kruska...Two point you not bring up ... And most do not bring up ...Israel has a time line as long as the Palestinians on that land ..And the Palestinians and the whole of the Arab world do not want a home land for the Palestinians ...They want the Israelis exterminated ...Not a home land ...How was it put by an Arab leader at the start of the Six Day War..."We will push them (Israel) in to the sea"...That statement was made and they still live by it and away will..I see the Israelis working harder at working it out then the Palestinians... The Palestinians want the Israelis gone..

Point two ...Why do some parts of the world think they can reason with the Arab world..???... A lot of Europe seems to feel this way ... And history say other wise...

And why do people pick this up at the 20 year mark ...And not the 1000 years to when it started and deal with all that has happened...Not just the last half hour....???

Palestinian maps to day do NOT even show Isreal as even there..And I "think" that they even show these in there schools to there kids...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 28, 2008)

Trebor said:


> I did read it. but I judt don't see how the hell teaching the Holocaust could be offensive to muslims. I mean, 12 million men, women, and children were murdered for who they were. how can schools teaching that be offensive? I really don't get it.



That is not what I meant. I meant making your post more readable....


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## Kruska (May 28, 2008)

Hello Haztoys, and Njaco

I didn’t bring up the time line, because IMO it would be ridiculous / impossible to judge right and wrong based on 2600 years ago.
Before I may carry on please keep in mind that the Jewish kingdom, was never a homogenous Jewish kingdom, but consisted of dozens of tribes, out of which one tribe considered themselves to be the “chosen ones” = the Jews.

The Jewish kingdom Juda was destroyed in 586 B.C. by the Babylonians (Today’s Iraq, Syria and partially Iran) most fled to Egypt and many were taken prisoners to the Babylonian empire, where they were resettled into independent villages and were allowed to keep and exercise their religion (this Jewish chapter in history is called the “Diaspora”) The Romans who conquered Palestine remembered the Jewish alliance with the former Babylonians, then renamed Parthian (Persia – Iran) against the Romans. The Romans literally got fed up of these “troublemakers” – please refer to Roman history sources on this topic in reference to the (2nd Diaspora) and after the Roman-Jewish war in 70 A.D the second Diaspora took place – the Jews immigrated / fled out of Palestine and the middle east into the Roman Empire (Europe).

Haztoys on your point 1:
I fully agree with you – indeed the Palestinians could have been resettled in any neighboring Arab country.
But please don’t forget the following:
Palestinians are not Arabs as such the Arabs wouldn’t like them too much. The Palestinians are of the same breed (with all the good and irrational attributes) as the Jews, it is just the religion language (Muslim and Christians) that separates Palestinians from the Jews. The Jews were expelled from Palestine a 2nd time in 70 A.C. the remaining Palestinians (Jews and I don’t know how many other tribes) were then conquered around 700 A.D by the Muslims (Main Muslim culture and political center was today’s Syria).
Most of the (Leftovers) in Palestine converted to Islam, some stayed Christian (mostly in today’s Lebanon) and the Jews mostly stayed Jews.

Reading and analyzing history, IMO the Palestinians (who are the same breed as the Jews) are both natural troublemakers. Wherever the Jews started to accumulate in numbers after the Diaspora they got themselves entangled in political intrigues and started or ignited some kind of revolution, (most prominent in the 19th/20th century – Russia Lenin). Same goes for the Palestinians, after they settled 1948 and were welcomed in Jordan, they tried a revolution and were as such expelled, later they tried the same thing in Lebanon.
In whatever Arab country the Palestinians settle in larger numbers, they are being closely “eyed”.

Haztoys on your point 2:
Quote: and history say’s otherwise……
There are dozens of occurrences were the Europeans (Christians) have negotiated peace with the Muslims, some treaties were kept others were broken by both sides. The French and Muslims were allies in the 17th century, and in the 19th century the British allied with the Muslims against Russia (Crimean war). The British and the Commonwealth allied together with the Arabs against the Turks and Germany/Austria in WW1.
The Yugoslav Muslims were loyal “butcher comrades” to the SS in WW2. Iran was a “super buddy” to the US and Europe before Islamic fundamentalist took over the former Islamic Iran. Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE (all Arabs and Muslims) are good buddies to the USA.

Due to this European history of entanglement and “joint ventures” with the Arab or Muslim world we (the Europeans) might have a very different viewpoint towards Arabs and Muslims then the USA. Reason being, that the Europeans are also able to distinguish between Islamic fundamentalists and Muslims and also between Muslims and Arabs.

The Turks, Egyptians, Syria, Lebanon, most of Iraq, and Iran are not Arabs they derive from separate old empires with their own indigenous population but share a common faith = Islam (Shiite and Sunni).

Imagine that all European countries would be called “Germanics” just because they look alike and share Christianity (Catholics and Protestants). And due to what the Germans did or the British, the USA would say, all the Germanic Christians are the same. 

Njaco:

When Bus bombs or roadside bombs in Israel caused dozens of dead, the international media was full of it, nobody bothered to show dead Palestinians on TV.
Obviously the international press seems to take a different or let’s say more neutral standpoint nowadays. IIRC one Israel – Jewish? person got killed on a Campus a month ago, Israel as usual in retaliation sends in Jets, Helicopters, tanks, ships and whatever else they have and kill 20 Palestinians, so which incident as a media company $$$ are you going to emphasize on?

If you could/would check on a statistic on behalf of Israeli civilians killed since 1948 and Palestinians (Unfortunately I do not have one) I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the Palestinian deaths surpass those of Israeli by a 100:1. If I should be correct on that, well then it is really about time for the international press to focus on the Palestinians.

Before I continue, please let me say very clearly, every dead person on any side is one too much. It is senseless and doesn’t change anything for the better. 

As for Iraq (2nd Gulf war) Iraq or Saddam wasn’t involved or entangled with 9/11 at all, neither for Iran can this be proven. What can be proven (unfortunately, sadly and irritating) is that the knowhow for a hideous 9/11 was supplied/given by the US themselves via CIA to a group of people, who were well known to the CIA and any other secret service as extremists, violent, terrorist proven and religious fanatics. Even if I should be wrong – which I am not – believe me, every Muslim sees it that way.

The attack on Iraq just totally destabilized this country and has now become a pool / breeding horde for dozens of mindless fanatic groups, which as present Iraq shows, is impossible to handle. And these mindless fu…ers are going to spread as already happened into neighboring countries creating even more havoc as there is already. So thank you USA, or please let me say rather thank you Mr. Bush.

The Iran is the only Muslim country that opposes Israel which has suffered so far no military disgrace via Israel. Personally in today’s world I see no reason for a country “not” to possess nuclear weapons as long as other countries have them. Once Iran has them, I wouldn’t be surprised that Israel suddenly will become very willing to negotiate. On the other hand the chance for Israel to strike at Iran before they would have them is very likely, if one looks on Israel’s behavior in the last 30 years, because obviously only the “chosen ones” are allowed to have them.

Personally, – I do not see the present Iranian government as so stupid and fanatic to face extinction themselves by launching one on Israel.
So before Iran might think about developing and using them it is about time for the Europeans and the USA to exert pressure on Israel instead on Muslim countries to reach a peaceful solution. The main problem is not just religion, it is as anywhere else in this world $$$. Reaching a peaceful settlement is one thing, providing financial help and support for the Muslim world is another priority. 

And there are going to be elements who will try everything to disturb any peaceful negotiation or settlement. And these elements are not a Muslim government, but individual or ganged up groups.

So dear USA, force Israel to destroy its nuclear weapons and do the same thing with any other country including yourself but don’t just pick on one. 

Maybe the US problem since 1945 was to always pick sides (many times they chose the wrong one). A policemen (USA) is not supposed to pick sides, he has to act on behalf of the law and be neutral in case of disputes, the rest will be taken care of by the Judge (UN).  

Oh Jesus, 3 pages

Regards
Kruska


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## KrazyKraut (May 28, 2008)

I personally don't give a rats ass who should inhabit the region of palestian "rightfully". I only know that the Palestinians could have arranged with the situation long ago and could've ended the war with acceptable conditions on multiple occasions.

But turn it around as much as you want, the primary reason they will not accept the state of Israel is lust for revenge, false pride and downright hate towards the Jews. Certainly the Israelis are no angels and have commited a number of atrocities during the whole middle eastern conflict. However their action are primarily aimed at the threat. Innocent civilian deaths are accepted but not the target. 

Is this comparable to the Islamist terror which deliberately aims at the innocent?

You could say their (Israels) bombings are much more "pc" than what the US and British did in WW2 to cities like Dresden. Do Germans hold a grudge against certain people (Harris)? Yes, but Germans also knew they had lost and that peace is more important than revenge or pride.

So pardon my ignorance on the various Muslim subcultures and their inner fights, what it boils down to is that a large part of the Muslim world seems to not have evolved their mindset much past the middle ages. And it is their faith that is the major contribution behind this. I don't have to go to the middle east to see that. I can just look out the window in my neighbourhood. 

That we are kissing the ass of backwards oriented religion that is imo unhealthy to the development of mankind, is one of the most perverted issues going on right now.


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## Freebird (May 28, 2008)

Udet said:


> *And what about Israel´s past and present actions?* Do teaching programs in England cover Israeli Bolshevik/Nazi-styled practices, policies and crimes against arabs in the bloody region where all those fundamenlists live? I think not...



No, I wouldn't excuse all of Israel's policys either



plan_D said:


> I won't get into the Israel vs. Arab debate; I think my views are well known. As for the French actions - they do seem to react better to this new threat to Western society ... they send them all to Britain through the Channel Tunnel.





Njaco said:


> *Wish we had the luck! When this happens here we send OUR citizens to Canada!*



*WHAT*!!! WTF is this? Do you mean we don't get your "best brightest"?    

I think we had better put some armed guards on the "Peace bridge" if McCain wins the election, otherwise we'll end up with Streisand, Pelosi Michael Moore wheeling Kennedy's gurney across the bridge on Nov 6 asking for asylum!


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## Njaco (May 28, 2008)

It was 'tongue in cheek' freebird! 

Kruska, again I say I agree with alot of your points and I do have a VERY limited knowledge on the history of that region but I guess I'm a little biased towards the jews.

but



> As for Iraq (2nd Gulf war) Iraq or Saddam wasn’t involved or entangled with 9/11 at all, neither for Iran can this be proven.



This is where the media clouds the minds of the world. From the first days of 9/11 Bush's stated purpose was to attack "terrorism" in all its forms and all those who help in it. The focus wasn't just those involved in 9/11 but terrorism as a whole and this was ONE of the MANY reasons we went to Iraq. Saddam was assisting the terrorism trade through many means. We captured the mastermind of the "Aquille Lauro" incident among others. Iraq was an open door for terrorist groups. But the media has pushed that 9/11 connection so much that the true purpose of 2d Gulf has been lost. And has been discussed in numerous threads here, Bush was great for the "war", the "occupation" has been a mess.

I have a question, though.

On that kill/loss ratio you gave, are you counting deaths caused by the PLO and other like-Palestinian groups from around the world? I mean, speaking of the "Achille Lauro", I don't remember a similar Jewish attack.


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## Kruska (May 28, 2008)

KrazyKraut said:


> I personally don't give a rats ass who should inhabit the region of palestian "rightfully". I only know that the Palestinians could have arranged with the situation long ago and could've ended the war with acceptable conditions on multiple occasions.
> 
> *Yes they could have, but why should they, after all the UN resolution in 1947 was unjust and unfair and therefore the Israeli should volunteer to pack their belongings and resettle in Australia, since you don't give a rats ass about "rightfull inhabiting"*
> 
> ...



Regards
Kruska


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## Kruska (May 28, 2008)

Njaco said:


> This is where the media clouds the minds of the world. From the first days of 9/11 Bush's stated purpose was to attack "terrorism" in all its forms and all those who help in it. The focus wasn't just those involved in 9/11 but terrorism as a whole and this was ONE of the MANY reasons we went to Iraq. Saddam was assisting the terrorism trade through many means. We captured the mastermind of the "Aquille Lauro" incident among others. Iraq was an open door for terrorist groups. But the media has pushed that 9/11 connection so much that the true purpose of 2d Gulf has been lost. And has been discussed in numerous threads here, Bush was great for the "war", the "occupation" has been a mess.
> 
> *I don't feel that the Media is clouding anything - maybe because I do not take my believe or knowledge unchecked from the Media  and as for Mr. Bush, he would be among those people on this planet that I wouldn't trust or believe for a penny worth.*
> 
> ...



Regards
Kruska


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 28, 2008)

Kruska before you say that Sudan is neglected, please do some research. We have had forces in that region conducting ops since before 9-11.

As for the WMD discussion (I am not going to get into it in great detail, because I believe the discussion is pointless), but based off of my experiences in Iraq I am firm believe that Sadam had WMD's. I wll leave it at that however.


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## Kruska (May 28, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Kruska before you say that Sudan is neglected, please do some research. We have had forces in that region conducting ops since before 9-11.
> 
> *Sudan? sorry never heard about this - besides Dafur region -, the original government still exists happily and nothing has changed in that country at all*
> 
> ...



Regards
Kruska


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## Njaco (May 28, 2008)

Good points but I guess I'm seeing it from another side.



> then sooner or later some lunatic is going to press the button or place a "big" bomb.



and by de-stabilizing Israel that lunatic is gonna be the Palestinians. especially with dictators like Saddam around. Oh, wait, hes gone. No matter what the premise, the US would have been in the ME whether for Israel or self interest. Because there are too many lunatics controlling so many governments over there. And as much as I accept your points about jewish aggression I have not nor can I remember any act as vicious or inhumane as tthe acts perpetrated by the palestinians either through the PLO, Hamas or others. That is why I said bood-thirsty, they go for the throat and borders mean nothing.



> No, you are correct I did not include this into the statistic, because I see this as a result of the UN resolution in 1947. As such I would blame the UN for those death just as much as the Israeli and Palestiniens.



I could easily siad that in regards to the recent rocket attacks on Israel and the Israeli response that they brought it on themselves and those deaths can be discounted. It can go on and on. I wish someone from both sides would say enough is enough and forget about past trangressons and work for some kind of peace. But as you pointed out, one side will never do that, their religion has promised them too much. So again I lay it on their doorstep.



> Any Arab or Muslim country besides Kuweit and the UAE at present is sympathising or even harboring terrorists. The worst country - Sudan - was totally neglected



Why Sudan? Again, I'm not very knowledgable about a few of these countries. But I do know of one that turns my stomache and I'll be ruffling feathers here. France. From harboring the Ayatolla to suppling weapons parts through Syria to Iraq, France has done nothing to help the situation. Maybe one big reason they were never part of the coalition.

Understand that a lot of what goes on in the world baffles me. From Northern Ireland to Bosnia/kosovo to Baghdad. Segregation has been a hot point in this country for the past 50 years or as Rodney King said "Why can't we all get along". The government here works at letting everyone and their culture live together. Then when you step outside the US its all "Blue Eyes" against "Brown Eyes". Is it right to kick the Protestants out of Belfast or the Jews out of the Gaza Strip? Or is it the right thing to let them all live together? There is so much nationalism and racism, its confusing.

So maybe its "piss on them, they deserve what they get - all of them." There is no tolerance anywhere anymore.


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## Kruska (May 28, 2008)

Njaco said:


> Good points but I guess I'm seeing it from another side.
> 
> *You are free to do so  *
> 
> ...



Regards
Kruska


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## Njaco (May 28, 2008)

Ok!


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## KrazyKraut (May 28, 2008)

Kruska said:


> Yes they could have, but why should they, after all the UN resolution in 1947 was unjust and unfair and therefore the Israeli should volunteer to pack their belongings and resettle in Australia, since you don't give a rats ass about "rightfull inhabiting"


It's that kind of thinking that leads to World Wars, including the last one. We want what we want because we think were right (it's not like Israelis didn't live in that region before) and we rather spend the next six decades killing and dieing instead of arranging for the sake of peace. I mean it's not like there was any chance of winning and all I achieve is more suffering among my own people, but why should I stop? I mean afterall it's me who's right.


> And acknowledgement is the macic word, if Israel would ever acknowledge the wrong doing against the Palestinians the problem could be solved. Unfornunatly the only Israeli President who actually did acknowledge this was shot by an Israeli fanatic.


Because we didn't see what happens if Isreal gives into Palestinian demands and makes concessions: The Muslims respect that and show their goodwill... oh wait they don't 


> Yes you are correct, and against a middle aged society no one should show muscles, because they will react exactly in the same manner


No against a middle aged society you can only react with muscle, because that is the only language they speak.

And it's not like we couldn't deal with the situation. But thanks to people like you, feeling all politically correct far away from the trouble and "oh boy those poor Palestinian Robin Hoods", we rather turn on our own friends instead of showing the unity that was appropriate.


> "unless" the US and Europe would pump billions of $$ into Palestine so that every Palestinian would realize that a good living and a thriving economy is much better then dying for a lost cause, and the US and Europe need to give the Muslim world face, even if this would be interpreted by some people -as by one post above - as kiss ass.


Oh boy, i think the next chancellor candidate of "Die Linke" is among us. 
Well let's take a look at Muslims here in our countries:
Are they living well? Yes.
Are tensions decreasing? No. On the contrary to be exact.
Hmm...


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## plan_D (May 28, 2008)

All this about what is right and wrong bores me...what happened to the good old days when you could invade and do whatever you want; as long as you won... 

I think both Israel and Palestine are in the wrong; but then the Western World is in the wrong too for getting involved. Let them fight it out amongst themselves if they can't live happily ever after, then lets see one of them exterminated. 

After believing that I could work out who was right or wrong I have come to the conclusion that the Middle East is still in the 12th Century. It's nothing to do with oil, religion, revenge or any of that - it's simply tribal. The same applies to gangs, cults, extremist groups and all that. And it's the same in a lot of African nations that are riddled with "Civil War". You can't stop the violence over there because there's no real reason for them to be fighting; sure in whatever century BC the Persians held Palestine... but I don't read a history book and see that Henry VI was King of England and France then go around declaring a French passport because Britain should own it anyway. 

No one really cares who owned what thousands of years ago. Or even 100 years ago... it's just that they're all tribal, uncivilised morons. The same applies to those "clans" or "rebels" in Africa, South-East Asia, Russia ...and the same applies to your gangs in all the Western nations. Only consider it a problem when it affects you...otherwise just let 'em slog it out. 

It all belonged to Britain anyway!


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## Njaco (May 28, 2008)

God Save the Queen!!!!


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## Haztoys (May 28, 2008)

kruska...Tell use why we the west has to pump billion in to Palestine's ..When the Medal East has some of the richest country in the world...Why...???

Its always killed me how they have some of the poor's and richest people in the world ...And countrys like Saudi Arabia have all this money to put up these big hotels...But let the country around them live so poor ..Then point fingers at the west ..And blame there wars on the west that started when time be gain..And in the US's case was not even a countrys when the wars started...


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## Kruska (May 29, 2008)

KrazyKraut said:


> Oh boy, i think the next chancellor candidate of "Die Linke" is among us.



That is really big news, the majority of people who know my political views keep telling me that I am conservative and racist and right wing - depending on the issue.
So you must be very, very extreme right 

I am sure "after reading your opinions" that if you would have been born as a Palestinian in "lovely" Gaza, you would be already a ISLAMIC HERO who's photo would be framed behind glass with stiched Islamic phrases on it.  

Regards
Kruska


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## Kruska (May 29, 2008)

Haztoys said:


> kruska...Tell use why we the west has to pump billion in to Palestine's ..When the Medal East has some of the richest country in the world...Why...???
> 
> Its always killed me how they have some of the poor's and richest people in the world ...And countrys like Saudi Arabia have all this money to put up these big hotels...But let the country around them live so poor ..Then point fingers at the west ..And blame there wars on the west that started when time be gain..And in the US's case was not even a countrys when the wars started...



If a peacefull settlement could be reached in regards to an independent Palestine state, off course the wealthy Arab States would have to contribute just as much as the western states. That would be part of an over all agreement. 
And it would make more sense then spending these billions on military hardware which do not help to settle the problem at all.

The Muslims blame the USA since 1947 and I would say that in this time the USA actually allready existet since almost 170 years.

Let me put a question to you; why is it, that the US have "only" supported Israel since 1947? because it was their fantastic idea?

The only time the USA ever interfered against Israel was Yom Kippur when they got aware that Israel had launched nuclear weapon carrying a/c flying towards Arab capital cities and -(likely one towards Germany)-? 
Egypt was only supported in order to get out the Russians. Saudi Arabia, Kuweit and the UAE, well I think everybody knows why.

Iran was the only country besides Turkey that borderd to the south east of NATO and Israel always complained in agony at the US for getting too friendly with Iran.

Who controls or has such a tremendous influence on the government of the USA in order to be so one sided?

Well let's see if after the last sentence KK still thinks me being a leftist.  

Anyway, if the US keeps its present direction it will cause a "big" bang sooner or later. The only way to avoid this is either kill all Arabs and Muslims, or kill all Israeli + Muslims, or bang those fu...ers heads and force them to negotiate - Israel will only be willing to negotiate once they are aware that the US will not back them anymore through billions of $$ in military and economic aid.

Regards
Kruska


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## Kruska (May 29, 2008)

plan_D said:


> It all belonged to Britain anyway!



I knew it all the way along, the whole thing is actually a British problem. So get your Gurkas there and solve it okay  

Regards
Kruska


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## Njaco (May 29, 2008)

Kruska, 2 points.

1. I can think of one reason for the US to be involved since 1947. What country has the largest population of jews since WWII? That might be one answer.

2. I think that what is being lost and only jumped around here is that Western ideas of conflict and resolution I don't think apply because we haven't figured out how to address the one problem - a lot of this is an issue of faith and religion. I know of no way (except cult indoctrination) that you can change ones faith. Hard core religious beliefs are difficult if not impossible to overcome.


and Haz has a good point. Why are they parking their Mercedes in tents?


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## fly boy (May 29, 2008)

why not just not care about muslums


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## Haztoys (May 29, 2008)

Kruska said:


> If a peacefull settlement could be reached in regards to an independent Palestine state, off course the wealthy Arab States would have to contribute just as much as the western states. That would be part of an over all agreement.
> And it would make more sense then spending these billions on military hardware which do not help to settle the problem at all.
> 
> The Muslims blame the USA since 1947 and I would say that in this time the USA actually allready existet since almost 170 years.
> ...



Kruska

Why is it you always turn statements around and not answer back when your ship gets sunk...You said .."The US and Europe should give billion.." Not a word on the Arabs ..And in this post your ship got sunk ..So you bring up the Arabs ..You feel the west is the problem there and should pay all the bill ..Like alot of the world.. ..You never answered the point that the Palestinian have no intention of peace and working it out with the Israeli's ...They will not stop at just land and nether will the Arab world ...Until the Israeli's are exterminated...Just as the Nazis were trying to do to the Jews.. So it would be OK to support the Nazi...?????...The US will not support the Palestinians until they say that Israel has a right to have a country in that part of the world..Most of the Arab world does not feel the Jews should be there...Hows the Palestinian fight song goes..."we will push Israel into the sea"...The Palestinians have land..But they want ALL the land..And no I do not think that Israels a saints...But they have a right to a peace of land in that part of the world as do the Palestinians...Google "Palestinian school map" Kruska do it..And then till me why its OK for the Palestinians to teach the kids this way..?..Sort of like the Japanese teaching there kids that they never did what they did in WW11.....There maps that show and teach their kids do not show the Israel is even there.. 

And The US is the one that pushed the Israels to give back the land from the two wars that the Arabs started and Israel won...Why do country start a war get their but kicked then say we were victims now give us back what we lost..

The one key to peace over there is Israels right to be there..Until the Arabs and the Palestinians do this America will support them...And should ...

And on the big bang...Trust me Bro ...I'm all for America giving up on that part of the world... And most Americans feel the same way... We give more to the Arab world then anyone... 

Supporting the Palestinians would be like supporting the Nazi's ..A group of people who want to wipe out a nother group to the point there no longer on the plant...And as not all Germans were Nazi's and not all Palestinians are kills ..But as in Germany at the time the good people let it happen..


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## fly boy (May 29, 2008)

soon i fear we might be the last couple of generations that know about the holocasut


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## Haztoys (May 29, 2008)

fly boy said:


> soon i fear we might be the last couple of generations that know about the holocasut



You right on that statement...As they say.. History forgotten is repeated..


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## Kruska (May 29, 2008)

Haztoys said:


> Kruska
> 
> Why is it you always turn statements around and not answer back when your ship gets sunk...You said .."The US and Europe should give billion.." Not a word on the Arabs ..And in this post your ship got sunk ..So you bring up the Arabs ..You feel the west is the problem there ......



Hello Haztoys,

Please don't give me this sh..t about "always turning my statements" So far I have "never" turned my statements. 

I simply didn't deem it necessary to mention every country, because the US, the Jews and Europe caused this problem - not the Arabs - not the Muslims.
Since the whole world however is interested to solve this problem, even China, India and other UN members would/should be willing to forward financial support to stabalize this peace effort.

In contra to you, I am very well aware that Saudi Arabia and the UAE have already contributed a couple of billion $$ into Gaza, but it wasn't enough and half of it the Israeli's have already blown up in the meantime.

Now if I would be Israeli, I would not have returned the conquered territory - since it adds significantly to my security - since I would be aware that the Arabs are never going to accept the state of Israel unless the Palestinians would agree to it.
So being Israel I would have to settle with the Palestinians first above all others and not heat up the blind USA towards Iran.

Quote: Supporting the Palestinians would be like supporting the Nazi's ..

Sorry to say, but you really seem to have no Idea about the Nazi cause (what do they actually teach about the holocaust in US schools?) and the Palestinian cause, just like most members of your government.

Anyway I do not intend to get heated up with forum members because of some lunatic Jews and Arabs and a USA that is presently doing its best to fully unstabalize this totally fu....ed up part of our planet.

So with your permission I hereby rest my case. 

Regards
Kruska


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## Kruska (May 29, 2008)

Njaco said:


> Kruska, 2 points.
> 
> 1. I can think of one reason for the US to be involved since 1947. What country has the largest population of jews since WWII? That might be one answer.
> 
> ...



Regards
Kruska


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## Kruska (May 29, 2008)

fly boy said:


> why not just not care about muslums
> 
> *Ever heard of terrorists, bombs, innocent dead civilians and 9/11?  *



Regards
Kruska


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## Hop (May 29, 2008)

> the Palestinian have no intention of peace and working it out with the Israeli's ...They will not stop at just land and nether will the Arab world ...Until the Israeli's are exterminated...Just as the Nazis were trying to do to the Jews.. So it would be OK to support the Nazi...?????.



There are three main groups of Palestinians. 

Those that remained in Israel in 1948 and, eventually, were granted full Israeli citizenship.

Those that live under Israeli military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza.

Those that live in other countries, frequently in refugee camps.

Terrorism is concentrated overwhelmingly amongst those living under military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza, with some support from those living in other countries as refugees.

Tellingly, those Palestinians who have been granted rights by Israel are not involved in terrorism.

How does that fit the theory that the Palestinians want the destruction of Israel?



> The Palestinians have land..But they want ALL the land



The only land the Palestinians have is under Israeli military occupation. 40% of the West Bank has been reserved for Jewish settlement, and the restrictions on Palestinian life have been increased to provide for the Jewish settlers. 



> And no I do not think that Israels a saints...But they have a right to a peace of land in that part of the world as do the Palestinians...Google "Palestinian school map" Kruska do it..And then till me why its OK for the Palestinians to teach the kids this way..?



If you look at the source of the stories, you will find they all come from one of 2 sources, the Israeli government or Palestinian Media Watch/ Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace, both groups set up by a man called Itamar Marcus. Marcus is a right wing Israeli settler who has worked for Benjamin Netanyahu, the former Israeli prime minister.

Neither of these is an impartial source.

What neither will tell you is that the Palestinian text books they are criticising are the old, pre Palestinian Authority books from Jordan and Egypt, that Israel used in Palestinian schools during the occupation (and last time I looked, still does in East Jerusalem).

For a more impartial study on Palestinian schooling, see DEMOCRACY, HISTORY, AND THE CONTEST OVER THE PALESTINIAN CURRICULUM

And what the Israeli pressure groups on the internet never give you is the other side of the story. Whilst they complain the Palestinians show only "Palestine", with no Israel, Israeli textbooks show only Israel, with the West Bank and Gaza an integral part of the state of Israel. See for example PM Olmert backs Tamir proposal to add Green Line to textbooks - Haaretz - Israel News

Whilst the education minister was calling for that to change, I don't think it has yet.


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## starling (May 29, 2008)

shameful indeed.the youngsters need to know all about this.from about 10yr old.lee.


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## Njaco (May 29, 2008)

Hop, I don't think Israeli schools have programs with the message to kill the palestinians as I have seen in arab schools. And I don't see foreign teachers being arrested for teaching about Jesus Christ or naming a teddy bear Moses and threatened with death.

I constantly see a culture of hatred from the palestininas and arab nations. Not so much among Israel.


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## Kruska (May 30, 2008)

Hello Njaco,

Off course I would not dispute that “some” lunatic Moslem groups teach to kill Jews, but it would be wrong to translate this on all Moslems.
In Israel they certainly do not teach it, but unfortunately they (Army) exercise it everyday. As you know the Semite tribe’s (Jews and Palestinians) have a saying: Eye for an Eye, tooth for a tooth. So whenever Palestinians or Israeli’s strike they need to exercise vengeance = it’s their tribal code.

As Hop (a very good post) has already pointed out, where Israel is treating the Palestinians or Moslems correctly there is no trouble. Israel was given 56% of the British mandate Palestine in 1947 by the UN despite only representing 30% of the total population. After the first Arab-Israeli war (were the Palestinians as such didn’t even participate) in 1948 Israel took over 100%.

As a consequence for loosing the war, the Arab country forced out about 700,000 Jews from their countries to Israel, and in turn the Israeli’s forced out about 700,000 Palestinians. (Who as I stated before never fought against Israel – excluding small bands of “freedom fighters” such as Israel was using against the British and Palestinians before independence in 1948.

In the past years Israel has offered the Palestinians an autonomous territory of less then 5% of the total former Palestine – would you accept that as a Palestinian? And as you know autonomous is not independent. 

As I tried to point out in my posts many times, BOTH Israeli’s and Palestinians are the same breed, BOTH have their share on Lunatics, but it is wrong just to simply blame the Arabs/Muslims for everything, even wage and threaten them with war, and at the same time openly support ONLY Israel. 

And in this matter Europe and the USA have a different viewpoint.

Regards
Kruska


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## Njaco (May 30, 2008)

Well, I guess we have two different views although I do agree that there is enough blame to go all around. And like I said, I'm not very knowledgable but some of what I do know, I just don't understand why.



> I would not dispute that “some” lunatic Moslem groups teach to kill Jews



This isn't some group when its being taught in the public schools and is on children's TV shows.


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## Kruska (May 30, 2008)

Njaco said:


> This isn't some group when its being taught in the public schools and is on children's TV shows.



Hello Njaco,

may I ask in which public Arab school or childrens TV show have you seen this?

Regards
Kruska


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## Freebird (May 30, 2008)

plan_D said:


> After believing that I could work out who was right or wrong I have come to the conclusion that the Middle East is still in the 12th Century. It's nothing to do with oil, religion, revenge or any of that - it's simply tribal. The same applies to gangs, cults, extremist groups and all that. And it's the same in a lot of African nations that are riddled with "Civil War". You can't stop the violence over there because there's no real reason for them to be fighting;



True enough.....
Perhaps after he leaves office Bush can be the elder statesman {like Blair} and go to the Middle East, quote some passeges from the Koran about how they should all live together in peace happiness ....  



> It all belonged to Britain anyway!



Bl**dy god-forsaken uninhabitable desert! They can't even play cricket or drink proper tea, what use are these people anyways?


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## plan_D (May 30, 2008)

W. Bush going over to the Middle-East to accompany Tony Blair's mission would be amusing to watch. It would be fantastic if everyone could live in peace and harmony...I'm sure. And I know a lot of people think that it could be possible with the right words. But it's not possible... as long as there's humans there will be war... just face it. There's no such thing as right or wrong in conflict; there's the winner and the loser... and the quicker the West learns this and stops expending energy of stopping conflict the better. The only way it can be solved is by wiping out one side... and that doesn't mean wipe everyone over there out - just kill those who refuse to sit down and talk.


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## Haztoys (May 30, 2008)

Njaco said:


> Hop, I don't think Israeli schools have programs with the message to kill the palestinians as I have seen in arab schools. And I don't see foreign teachers being arrested for teaching about Jesus Christ or naming a teddy bear Moses and threatened with death.
> 
> I constantly see a culture of hatred from the palestininas and arab nations. Not so much among Israel.



And when Palestinians as a country and people go to vote for new government who gets voted in power?? ...Hamas and Fatah ..This was a vote of the people ..That took a majority of the people..A none terrorist group...Now tale me that the majority of the Palestinians are not about hate..That would be like a country majority voting in the Nazi party ..Stalin into power..or the American KKK...The Arab world let the Al-Qaida new report there hate...

But the West is one sided........ ...( I do read Al-Qaida ..We all should ...Do the Arab world real by there BS...They have backed off there pro kill the west and push Israel in to the sea..Thats good)

Kruska... Why is it not ok for the Arabs and Palestinians to not recognize Israel's right to have land in that part of the world...And you say that the US should help the Palestinian as much as the Israels and not be so one sided..Then the Arab world should give there time money and backing to Israel...Right..


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## Kruska (May 30, 2008)

Hello Haztoys,

As I mentioned before, turning back history for 2600 years in order to find a place for the dispersed and holocaust Jews, doesn’t make sense to me at all. If any one – especially – the US would have studied history they would have never supported this idiotic idea – good example = England the former mandate holder of Palestine refrained from its UN vote, very well knowing why.

However it happened. Presently only the US is strong enough to push both sides to an agreeable settlement and pushing does not include threatening Iran or attacking any surrounding Arab country.
Once an agreement is reached between Israel and Palestinians, money has to flow – if someone -besides Israel themselves- think that they would be in need for financial support, well the UN will control the cash, and if the rich Arab countries would not contribute into this cash box out of fear that the Israelis might get some bucks – well f..ck them, but the west and others would still have to pay in order to stabilize the situation.

On the other hand in regards to your “provoking” idea –  Arabs pay Israel - This idea is about as brilliant as me forwarding why shouldn’t the Israelis take some of the billions of $ that Germany has paid and give a “nice-fat” share to the Palestinians.

Regards
Kruska


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## Kruska (May 30, 2008)

plan_D said:


> The only way it can be solved is by wiping out one side... and that doesn't mean wipe everyone over there out - just kill those who refuse to sit down and talk.



Hmmm.... well I thought 007 was just a fictional character...if not well plase by all means help youself to it 

Regards
Kruska


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## Haztoys (May 30, 2008)

Kruska ..You still never answer what I ask .. .. The Med East is a pissing contest ..And I'm a fool for wasting time with this thread .. Good luck my friend ..I'm going to punt..


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## Haztoys (May 30, 2008)

plan_D said:


> W. Bush going over to the Middle-East to accompany Tony Blair's mission would be amusing to watch. It would be fantastic if everyone could live in peace and harmony...I'm sure. And I know a lot of people think that it could be possible with the right words. But it's not possible... as long as there's humans there will be war... just face it. There's no such thing as right or wrong in conflict; there's the winner and the loser... and the quicker the West learns this and stops expending energy of stopping conflict the better. The only way it can be solved is by wiping out one side... and that doesn't mean wipe everyone over there out - just kill those who refuse to sit down and talk.



True words..As always plan-D


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## fly boy (May 30, 2008)

Haztoys said:


> You right on that statement...As they say.. History forgotten is repeated..



agreed


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## plan_D (May 30, 2008)

Of course 007 is real, Kruska. But Britain wouldn't waste the energies of a well dressed man on something as pityful as the Mid-East; he's got better things to do like stop global madmen with lasers, and 3 million megatone nuclear weapons based on the moon.

No, if Britain and America had any sense they'd just bomb the Mid-East flat...like the good old days.


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## Njaco (May 30, 2008)

Kruska, it was several years ago and I'm not sure of the source. I just remember it was shown as an example of what was going on in the public schools in ME schools. And it wasn't just one source. I can try to google and see if its recorded anywhere but until I can back my post with the source I guess I have to eat my words. 

I still have a hard time when ever its bash Israel time.


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## pbfoot (May 30, 2008)

fly boy said:


> soon i fear we might be the last couple of generations that know about the holocasut


there have been many holocausts since the end of WW2 . Rwanda , Cambodia are 2 examples and may actually be worse


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## Haztoys (May 30, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> there have been many holocausts since the end of WW2 . Rwanda , Cambodia are 2 examples and may actually be worse



Man some times I wish you would drop the ball PD ...And be wrong for time to time ...But your right...

The Africa's are really going at ....And saying two maybe low...

not good...

Sad to say ...


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## Kruska (May 31, 2008)

Njaco said:


> Kruska, it was several years ago and I'm not sure of the source. I just remember it was shown as an example of what was going on in the public schools in ME schools. And it wasn't just one source. I can try to google and see if its recorded anywhere but until I can back my post with the source I guess I have to eat my words.
> 
> I still have a hard time when ever its bash Israel time.



I think nobody is bashing at Israel - neither am I - I just try to simply forward, that if Israel can't hide behind nuclear wepons and the US, the problem could be solved much easier and faster.

Regards
Kruska


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 31, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> there have been many holocausts since the end of WW2 . Rwanda , Cambodia are 2 examples and may actually be worse



Dont forget the Balkans...


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## Njaco (May 31, 2008)

Not claiming you are Kruska and sorry if it seems that way. I agree with most of what you posted but for me the scales are tipped for Israel. I find it hard to believe that Palestine would sit down a for a tea if Israel did those things you propose.


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## HealzDevo (May 31, 2008)

Palestine was always the home of Hamas. Hamas is a body that will never allow peace to break-out in the Middle East because if it does then it loses its reason for being therefore it must keep the war going to maintain its status amongst the Palestian people. If you watch, 90% of the time when Israel and Palestine come close to peace Hamas and and the other factions will deliberately strike at Israel to get a response. If Israel did nothing then Hamas would consider this an invitation to continue with even more elaborate schemes to destroy Israel. Hamas and some other factions in the Middle East don't forget have a goal that they have stated as wiping Israel from the face of the earth. What has changed is their potential ability to use a different method to achieve it in getting control of Palestine...


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## Kruska (Jun 1, 2008)

*HealzDevo;Palestine was always the home of Hamas. *

Maybe you do not know the history of Hamas. Try and check for example WIKI. Hamas only exists since 1967 (20 years after the PLO) and since 1987 as a military wing, since 1967 Hamas was only on social and humanitarian activities. Israel even supported Hamas because they wanted to use them as a lever agianst Yassir Arafats "Fatah". The reason for the Hamas to engage in military activites was due to the 2nd Intifada, - fight against Israels settler's policy in the Palestine refugee areas.

In the meantime the Hamas has emerged as the strongest movement and also the most militant organization - Thanks to Israels Hardliners -settlers policy starting in the mid 80th, and the PLO who acctually signed and declared its approval for Israels souvereignity in 1988 is now towards nowere, unless they would become even more radical then Hamas in order to take back power.

My partcipation on this thread is not about defining on who is worse, or who is rightfull, or who might be the nice guy. No it is simply forwarding the need to reach a settlement before something realy "big" happens.

But all I get to hear from most forum members is always a turning in circles by stating that Arab militants want to wipe out Israel, destroy it, push them back into the sea and so on..... Everybody already knows this - especially Israel, to solve the problem they need to negotiate - or as some members already forwarded one side needs to be exterminated.

So the US want to exterminate 800 million Muslims in order to help Israel?

Look at Libanon, since the UN troops are in again and patrolling the borders since now more then 6 month, have there been any cross border attacks?

Regards
Kruska


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## Njaco (Jun 1, 2008)

Kruska, believe me, I agree totally with you that negotiations would help a long way towards peace - only sane, rational way to stop violence. But, and I think many realize this and thats why they question your proposal, is that Hamas and all refuse to recognize Israel and therefore refuse to negotiate in any way. And thats a shame.


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## Kruska (Jun 1, 2008)

Njaco said:


> Kruska, believe me, I agree totally with you that negotiations would help a long way towards peace - only sane, rational way to stop violence. But, and I think many realize this and thats why they question your proposal, is that Hamas and all refuse to recognize Israel and therefore refuse to negotiate in any way. And thats a shame.



Yes agreed Niaco, but it should also be noted that not all Palestinians or Arabs are pro Hamas or as lunatic as other Jihad offsprings. So give the Arabs face - not war and make them understand that they - the Arabs - need to controll or eliminate the radical influence - which I believe they will do the moment that they can see that the US is not backing Israel without questions.

At least many Europeans or I see it that way 

Regards
Kruska


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## HealzDevo (Jun 4, 2008)

But the fact remains that in the study about 90% of conflicts seem to stem from Arab attacks on Israel even going back to when Israel was founded. Okay Israel may have given them a bloody nose a lot of times but it was the Arabs who carried out the same attacks and who are now attempting to destroy Israel by remote methods. You are simply not understanding Kruska that we have seen this time and again where the Palestinians and Arabs have had concessions made for them and it does no good. If the US backs off this will actually have the effect of allowing the Arabs to find a way of finishing the job. Instead of leading to lasting peace it will actually lead to an even bigger war letting Israel go it alone against the Arabs. The Arabs have shown themselves to have had plenty of time to do something about the radical elements and yet we don't seem to see very many results for their potential spin on how much effort Arab states like United Arab Emirates are supposedly putting in to doing something about the radical elements there...


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## Njaco (Jun 4, 2008)

> The Arabs have shown themselves to have had plenty of time to do something about the radical elements



like elect them to government. Sheesh!


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## Kruska (Jun 4, 2008)

One can blame the Arabs – Palestinians – as much as one wants’ to. Fact is they were robbed and pushed of their land because of the US backed UN resolution in 1947/48.
Israel would never agree to give back 40% of its present territory, unless the US would threaten to cut down there support towards Israel. Until then the Palestinians and most Arab and Muslim countries will support ongoing actions against Israel and the US and its western allies.
To offer the Palestinians 5% of the territory sure is not a serious attempt at all by Israel to solve the situation; it is purely for the show of good will.
So much for politics and the respective governments.

I have met many Arabs and Israeli – both are nice, decent people, love to do jokes, have fun and make a good living – just like me. So change the attitude of the governments and give the majority of the people a chance for a better live. It is the US government that could put pressure on the respective governments, but no they got nothing better to do then openly and solely support the Israeli government and threaten the Arab and Muslim governments.

In return the Muslim governments need to show or even provide support to the radical factions in order not to lose control over their countries, which results in making the fanatics even stronger. Those who do not - see the PLO, will loose the majority or election to the radicals - Hamas.

The US was the main culprit to support the founding of Israel in 1947/8, they did not take the total objections of all surrounding Muslim countries into account, or even bothered about other peoples, countries objections.
They could use the same attitude to force Israel to acknowledge an independent Palestine with 40% of the original territory. – why care about one countries objections, if before they couldn’t be bothered about 11 countries objecting their idea?

So if one likes it or not, it will always come back to just one thing, the lunatic – blind and totally irresponsible idea of the US and its followers to place a Jewish state in the middle of a Muslim world in 1947/48.

Last and most important, this world is about $$$ - lifestyle-making a decent living. Settle the political issue and provide the basis for making $$$ for everyone, and who wants to get killed for some religious or political cause.
Germany only got Hitler, because the decision was between $$$ and communism. Hitler offered the $$$ view so he got elected by 34% and as such became strongest single party to start his game. Hitler was never elected by a majority who actually believed or agreed to his idiotic racial doctrines.
And the Palestinians or Arabs would vote in majority for the $$$ and not racial or religious doctrines. but since nobody offers them $$$, or provides the basis to get a view on some $$$, well......     

Regards
Kruska


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## Freebird (Jun 4, 2008)

Kruska said:


> The US was the main culprit to support the founding of Israel in 1947/8, they did not take the total objections of all surrounding Muslim countries into account, or even bothered about other peoples, countries objections.
> They could use the same attitude to force Israel to acknowledge an independent Palestine with 40% of the original territory. – why care about one countries objections, if before they couldn’t be bothered about 11 countries objecting their idea?
> 
> So if one likes it or not, it will always come back to just one thing, the lunatic – blind and totally irresponsible idea of the US and its followers to place a Jewish state in the middle of a Muslim world in 1947/48.
> ...



Kruska what is your opinion on "the wall" {not Germany - the one in the occupied territories!} It seems to me like a "Berlin wall" type structure is the only way from keeping these two tribes from killing each other. 

And on some points you are right about locating Israel there, {spark in a powder keg}, but the fact is that they are there now, do you think there is any solution to the problem?


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## Kruska (Jun 4, 2008)

Hello freebird,

The wall is indeed something very hard to understand – but I would tend to agree to it. The actual problem with the wall is the “prison” effect that it constitutes and the exploitation as such by the militants. Unfortunately the present Israeli government is also using this artificial barrier to execute an embargo and by defining the amount of needed supplies - solely on Israel’s definition - it worsens the scenario.

If the wall would only separate/ partition towards the Israeli side, without an embargo it would be more “acceptable” towards a self protection need for Israel. Funny wise or paradox the Israeli industry relies on those cheap Palestine laborers from Gaza or Westbank, therefore the embargo or non passing issue actually hurts Israel’s economy and off course increases poverty on the Palestinian side.

Solving the problem:

If at all, only by the US putting real pressure on the Israeli government, giving face to the Arab/Muslim world and forcing/convince the Arab governments to fight militants on their own behalf in their own countries. And in the end Israel would have to return about 40% of its present territory to the Palestinians. Such as Russia had no choice but to let Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia and (don’t know) 25 other provinces declare their independence. 

Imagine the Serbs would have kicked out all others from former Yugoslavia and forced them to stay in refugee camps located in Austria and Greece. Later builds a wall around them, places an embargo on them and complains to the world about these Croatian/Slovenian/Bosnian, etc.etc. Lunatics, and murderers who constantly pose a threat to Serbian safety. And the US would fully back the Serbs because the others have sworn to eliminate the Serbs.

I think the only way to solve this problem would be to force the Serbs to return the territory or settle all these ex Yugoslav people (if they agree) to Canada, okay Australia. 

On the other hand I would fully agree that the Western countries also make it very clear to Muslims living in our countries that they have to oblige to our culture and not we to them.

Regards
Kruska


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## pbfoot (Jun 4, 2008)

freebird said:


> Kruska what is your opinion on "the wall" {not Germany - the one in the occupied territories!} It seems to me like a "Berlin wall" type structure is the only way from keeping these two tribes from killing each other.
> 
> And on some points you are right about locating Israel there, {spark in a powder keg}, but the fact is that they are there now, do you think there is any solution to the problem?


It's a new Warsaw ghetto


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## Kruska (Jun 5, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> It's a new Warsaw ghetto



Yes, that is what it basically comes down to, and gives the Muslim militants another reason/excuse to spread terror and receive applications for new gangmembers.

Regards
Kruska


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## machine shop tom (Jul 19, 2008)

I just ran across this at Snopes.com

snopes.com: Holocaust Teaching Ban

Seems like a lot of ado about 1 school.

tom


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## Lucky13 (Jul 19, 2008)

How many did read about the German Shepherd called Rommel here in the UK?


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