# Ace on Ace Kills



## RATHED (Jan 23, 2007)

Hi. I am knew to the Forum, but will take the liberty to sugest a topic: How about histories of confirmed cases of kills in aerial combats involving Known aces? I mean, cases in which a US ace shootdown a German ace, for example. I wonder how many well documented cases of this happening there are…

I will start it off , which two tales extracted from Osprey´s “Japanese Air Force Aces”:

1 - On 19 March 1945 the 16 kills Japanese ace Stg. Yokio Shimokawa was flying a Ki-84 “Frank’ over Hiroshima and claimed two Hellcats . Latter in the same mission he was in return shoot down himself by a Hellcat from VF-17 flown by 6 kills ace Lt. Tilman E Pool. The Japanese ace managed to bail out and survived the war.

2 – On 10 April 1942 3rd AVG Flt Ltr Robert T Smith ( 8 kills), flying a P-40C ,destroyed the Ki-43 “Oscar” piloted by Major Yohei Hinoki (12 kills) over Loiwing , China. Curiously, after barely surviving a hard crash landing, Hinoki would ‘tangle’ a second time with an american ace. On 27 November 1943, again flying a Oscar, his aircraft was severely damaged over Burma, by fire from the 530TH FS P-51A flown by Lt. Robert F Mulhollem ( 5 kills). Hinoki lost a leg in this incident, but managed to bring his shot up plane back to base. He survived the war. To even the score a bit, let me tell you that Hinoki is the pilot credited with downing Col. Harry R Melton´s A-36A over Burma, 25 november, 1943. Melton was the commander of the 311th Fighter-Bomb group, and was captured after parachuting.

Well, that is it from now. Anyone interested in following it up?

Best regards


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## pbfoot (Jan 23, 2007)

Beurling shot down 2 in a single flight Nicolet and Gelli over Malta in 42


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## Treize (Mar 11, 2007)

Legend says Ralph Hofer was shot down by Erich Hartmann, but since "The Kidd" went down over Hungary and Jg-52 was flying over Romania at the time, I don't really buy it, though Hofer was in fact the only 8th AAF ace to go down in a2a combat and not to ground fire.

I also don't buy it for the simple overly-coincidental aspect of two young aces both called "The Kid" (well, "Bubi", but its the German equivalent) meeting in the air and fighting to the death. Plus I think the story would have made it into one of Hartmanns autobiographies, not just confined to books on the 4th.


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## Erich (Mar 11, 2007)

it does not make sense anyway because of the theater of ops for JG 52, E.H. shot down 15th AF fighters not 8th


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## net_sailor (Mar 12, 2007)

> After April 19th, 1942, Major Marian Pisarek received command of the 1st Polish Fighter Wing (303rd, 316th, and 317th Squadrons). Ten days later, the wing had a fighter sweep in the Hardelot-Desrves-Marck area. Over Le Treport (other sources say Le Touquet or Bologne) the wing was surprised by an attack by 15 FW 190's. This strike hit the 317th Squadron. They lost, unfortunately, the Squadron Leader; Capt. Piotr Ozyra, and Wing Commander Major Marian Pisarek. The Germans, after rapidly attacking, disengaged from the battle. 303rd Squdron simply did not manage to enter into this combat. Pisarek was probably shot down by the famous German ace, Commander of the II/JG 26, Htpm. Joachim Muncheberg , or Obfw. H. Hoffman from the 4./JG 26.
> 
> Major Pisarek is ranked in 7th position on the list of best Polish aces, with a record of 12 confirmed, 1 probable, and 2 demaged enemy aircraft.


Source:WW II ACE STORIES


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## blue_halloween (Mar 13, 2007)

303 sqd ? that was using RAF northolt at the time wasnt it ?


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## net_sailor (Mar 13, 2007)

correct


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## Civettone (Mar 13, 2007)

There used to be the story that Masajiro "Mike" Kawato shot down Pappy Boyington but this claim was eventually disproven though Kawato held to his story until his death.

There are several German Experten and Assen who were shot down in 1943/1944 by American escort fighter pilots but can't come up with one right now... 




Kris


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## timshatz (Mar 13, 2007)

Civettone said:


> There used to be the story that Masajiro "Mike" Kawato shot down Pappy Boyington but this claim was eventually disproven though Kawato held to his story until his death.
> 
> There are several German Experten and Assen who were shot down in 1943/1944 by American escort fighter pilots but can't come up with one right now...



Wasn't one of the Galland Brothers shot down by Hub Zemke's Wolf Pack on a the outbound leg of the second Schwienfort Raid. The 56th flew into Germany, turned around and came in on it's escort run from the East instead of the West, where the German Fighters expected them. Galland (not Adolf, another brother) was in command of a gaggle of 190s and thought the 56th was just more fighters coming in. 

Somebody got him. Not saying hit was Hub but it was probably a section lead as he went down on the first pass.


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## lesofprimus (Mar 17, 2007)

On 3 March 1943, Heinz Bar shot down well known RAF pilot Flight Sergeant J D A Wright, in the area of Fatnassa, Tunisia...


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## Njaco (Apr 23, 2007)

August 17, 1943 - ....the bombers now had to fight their way back through the same country they just struggled through, and the Luftwaffe pilots had enough time to refuel, rearm and refresh. The bombers were expecting P-47 escort cover to resume once they managed to reach Eupen. The First task force got their cover 10 mintes before they reached Eupen and the P-47s proceeded to fend off attacks from JG 26. Three stafflen of Fw 190s from II./JG 26 engaged the bombers over Lutych. Obfw. Adolf "Addi" Glunz of 4./JG 26 destroyed two of the B-17s northwest of Diest. As the Focke-Wulfs attacked, they in turn were bounced by P-47 Thunderbolts from the escort force of the USAAF 56th FG. Major Wilhelm-Ferdinand "Wutz" Galland, Gruppenkommandeur of II./JG 26, was shot down and killed in a crash near Maastricht. His final score was fifty-five kills including eight 4 engined bombers and 37 Spitfires. His place as Gruppenkommandeur was taken by Hptm. Hans Naumann.....


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## timshatz (Apr 23, 2007)

Njaco said:


> August 17, 1943 - ....the bombers now had to fight their way back through the same country they just struggled through, and the Luftwaffe pilots had enough time to refuel, rearm and refresh. The bombers were expecting P-47 escort cover to resume once they managed to reach Eupen. The First task force got their cover 10 mintes before they reached Eupen and the P-47s proceeded to fend off attacks from JG 26. Three stafflen of Fw 190s from II./JG 26 engaged the bombers over Lutych. Obfw. Adolf "Addi" Glunz of 4./JG 26 destroyed two of the B-17s northwest of Diest. As the Focke-Wulfs attacked, they in turn were bounced by P-47 Thunderbolts from the escort force of the USAAF 56th FG. Major Wilhelm-Ferdinand "Wutz" Galland, Gruppenkommandeur of II./JG 26, was shot down and killed in a crash near Maastricht. His final score was fifty-five kills including eight 4 engined bombers and 37 Spitfires. His place as Gruppenkommandeur was taken by Hptm. Hans Naumann.....




Yeah, that's the guy. Did it say who got him?


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## Wildcat (Apr 24, 2007)

Apparently Clive Caldwell shot down German aces Hans-Arnold stahlschmidt and Oberleutnant Erbo Graf von Kageneck.


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## Njaco (Apr 24, 2007)

> Yeah, that's the guy. Did it say who got him?


Nah, haven't found that out yet. Still checking.

As far as Aces....I thought Muncheburg of 7./JG 26 shot down Sailor Malan over Malta once.


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## Njaco (Apr 24, 2007)

Wait, found it.....

Aces of the Luftwaffe - Wilhelm-Ferdinand Galland

"On 17 August 1943, at 16:52, three Staffeln from II./JG 26 took off from Lille-Nord, under the command of Major Galland, to intercept a formation of USAAF four-engine bombers on their return course from a bombing raid on Schweinfurt. Over Lutych, the unit encountered a formation of 150 to 200 bombers, escorted by nearly 200 escort fighters. II./JG 26 bounced the bombers but were, in turn, attacked by a unit of P-47 fighters from the 56th Fighter Group, USAAF. Their fire crippled the FW 190 A-5 (W.Nr. 530 125) <<+- flown by “Wutz” Galland which crashed at high speed near Liegne, 5 km west of Maastricht. The impact left a large crater in the ground from which it was impossible to remove all the wreckage. Some sources suggest that “Wutz” Galland was shot down by the American ace Walker “Bud” Mahurin (24.25 confirmed, 4 probable and 2 damaged victories) of the 56th Fighter Group, USAAF."

There ya go.


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## Njaco (Apr 24, 2007)

Sorry for so many quick posts but also found these from the same website...

"On 7 September 1942, Stahlschmidt was part of a Schwarm that had taken off on a freie Jagd. Southeast of El Alamein they came under attack by RAF Spitfires. Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt failed to return in his Bf 109 F-4 (W.Nr. 8704) “Red 4”. It is possible he was the victim of the American ace John Curry (7.333 confirmed, 2 probable and 3 damaged victories) flying with 601 Sqn, RAF."

"...On 13 May 1941, von Kageneck shot down Flight Lieutenant Innes Westmacott (3.75 destroyed, 1 probable and 1.333 damaged victories) of 185 Sqn, RAF, who baled out wounded. He shot down Pilot Officer Claud “Hamish” Hamilton (6 victories) of 185 Sqn, RAF on 14 May. Hamilton died of his wounds a short time later....On 24 December 1941, von Kageneck was critically wounded in combat with RAF fighters south of Agedabia. Although he managed to return to base, he died of his wounds in a Naples hospital on 12 January 1942. Some sources indicate that his victor was the Australian ace Clive Caldwell (28.5 confirmed, 6 probable and 15 damaged victories) of 250 Squadron RAF."


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## R Leonard (Apr 24, 2007)

Sakai v Southerland


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## lesofprimus (Apr 24, 2007)

Good stuff guys...


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 26, 2007)

> Apparently Clive Caldwell shot down German aces Hans-Arnold stahlschmidt and Oberleutnant Erbo Graf von Kageneck.



Erbo von kageneck was not shot down, it was injured in combat but manage to return and died from his wounds in a Naples Hopital.


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## comiso90 (Apr 26, 2007)

Not Quite Ace on Ace but I met and spoke with James Finnegan who shot down Adolf Galland. James was in a P-47 and Adolf in a Me-262. Mr. Finnegan finished the war with 3 kills but I figure a 262 *(flown by Galland!)* is worth extra credit!

_
I was leading the top flight cover of P-47’s that was escorting the B-26’s to their target. As I gazed down, I saw 2 objects come zipping through the formation, and 2 bombers blew up immediately. I watched the 2 objects go through the bomber formation, and thought “that can’t be a prop job....it’s got to be one of the 262 jets.”

I was at about 13,000 feet and estimated them to be at about 9-10,000. They were climbing, and I pulled a split-S towards the one that turned left, and almost ended up right on top of him - - about 75 yards away!!

I gave a 3 second burst and saw strikes on the right hand engine and wing root. I was going so fast, I went right through everything, and guessed my speed at about 450+ mph. I recorded it as a probable.

I was flying a D model Thunderbolt with a bubble canopy, a natural metal finish and a black nose. The 262 had a green and brown mottled camouflage with some specs of yellow.

That turned out to be my last flight in a P-47. My kills for the war were an FW-190 and an Me-109, in addition to the Me-262. 

_

Interview with James Finnegan


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## Wildcat (Apr 28, 2007)

CharlesBronson said:


> Erbo von kageneck was not shot down, it was injured in combat but manage to return and died from his wounds in a Naples Hopital.



Your quite right Charles, my mistake. In the new Clive caldwell biography it claims that Caldwell was the pilot who inflicted the wounds.


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## Njaco (Apr 29, 2007)

April 29, 1942 - Hptm. Joachim Muncheburg of II./JG 26 shot down a Spitfire near Le Tourquet. His victim was probably the great Polish ace, Major Marian Pisarek, commander of I Polish Fighter Wing.


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## net_sailor (Apr 29, 2007)

Good find Njaco... but now go to the first page of this thread and see post #5


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## Njaco (Apr 29, 2007)

Cheeeezee!!! Se what happens when you're away for awhile. Ummm....I'm just doing a refresher test. You passed!


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## Wildcat (Apr 30, 2007)

Been doing some more reading on Caldwell and it seems he is also credited with shooting down Luftwaffe ace Hauptmann Wolfgang Lippert (29 victories?). Caldwell shot him down on 23rd Nov. 1941 whilst flying a Tomohawk. Lippert bailed out but broke both his legs when he hit the ground. He was found by British troops and taken to a hospital in Cairo. Whilst in hospital, Gangrene set in and both legs were amputated, however he died of an embolism moments later.


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## Watanbe (Apr 30, 2007)

Excellent stuff Wildcat. Has he written a biography or autobiography I reckon it would be a fascinating addition to my collection hehe


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## Heinz (Apr 30, 2007)

just off topic here

Wantanbe if you haven't already grab Flak by Michael Vietch top read!


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## Wildcat (Apr 30, 2007)

Watanbe said:


> Excellent stuff Wildcat. Has he written a biography or autobiography I reckon it would be a fascinating addition to my collection hehe



There are two biographies written in recent times about Caldwell. The first is called "Killer Caldwell, Australia's greatest fighter pilot" by Jeffery Watson released in 2005. The second is called "Clive Caldwell, air ace" by Kristen Alexander released last year. I've got both and am reading the Alexander one at the moment. From what I've seen through reviews etc, the Alexander book is the better of the two however I did enjoy the Watson book.

Heinz, I agree. I couldn't put that book down, fantastic read.


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## Heinz (May 1, 2007)

Much the same here, i started reading on a Friday night and between homework had it done by Sunday arvo lol!

I intend to read it again soon.


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## Watanbe (Aug 1, 2007)

Thanks guys I will check them out!


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Aug 1, 2007)

> That turned out to be my last flight in a P-47. My kills for the war were an FW-190 and an Me-109, in addition to the Me-262.


Nice bit of shooting, getting to kill 1 each of the 3 main German fighters. Just missed the Me 163.


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## T4.H (Aug 1, 2007)

I know, that Hartmann shot down several russian aces...

Next time, I have the book on another place.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 25, 2007)

Hauptmann Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert (145 kills)





shot down and killed, on 16 April 1943 Tunisia, Spitfire Ace and Leader of 244 Wing, Wing Commander Ian Gleed (15 kills).....


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## lesofprimus (Nov 26, 2007)

Major Helmut Wick (56 kills)




was shot down and killed, 28 Nov 1940 Isle of Wight, by Flt. Lt. John Dundas (16 Kills) No: 609 Squadron ... Having despatched Major Wick, John Dundas was shot down amd killed by Wick's wing-man Rudolf Flanz.... Both men were lost...


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## drgondog (Nov 26, 2007)

Treize said:


> Legend says Ralph Hofer was shot down by Erich Hartmann, but since "The Kidd" went down over Hungary and Jg-52 was flying over Romania at the time, I don't really buy it, though Hofer was in fact the only 8th AAF ace to go down in a2a combat and not to ground fire.
> 
> *Oops, the 4th FG had at least 5 aces down in air to air that I can think of including Carpenter, Sobanski, McGrattan, Bennett, Edner, Lang plus McPharlin (339) who was a 4th ace flying with 4th on D-Day when he was KIA w/Sobanski and McGrattan - three aces in one flight, and one fight. I could dig up more, perhaps.
> 
> ...



Hofer is still a mystery. Hively last saw him over Budapest in a big fight there, but he went down at an airbase at Molstar, Yugoslavia ~ 200 miles away.

Regards,

Bill


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## drgondog (Nov 26, 2007)

RATHED said:


> Hi. I am knew to the Forum, but will take the liberty to sugest a topic: How about histories of confirmed cases of kills in aerial combats involving Known aces? I mean, cases in which a US ace shootdown a German ace, for example.



These are difficult to prove but I can offer some examples.

April 19, 1944 - Bob Woody (354FS/355FG) - 7air/4 ground, probably shot down JG3 Otto Wessling near Eschwege.

April 24, 1944 - Gerald Dix (355FG HQ) 4 air/1.5 ground, or Hank Bille (357FS/355FG) 6 air/4 ground, probably shot down JG3 Franz Schwaiger near Regensburg

April 24, 1944 - Henry Brown (354FS/355FG) 14.2 air/14.5 ground, probably shot down II./JG3 Gruppen Kommander Hermann Frieherr Kapp-herr near Munich. Aces Fortier (5.83 air/5.5 ground) and Woody also scored 109s in same area that Kapp went down.

July 28, 1944 - James McElroy (358FS/355FG) 5 air/6 ground did shoot down JG300 Ernst Erich Hirschfeld near Erfurt

August 16, 1944 - Either John Elder -8air/13 ground, or Bill Cullerton 5air/15 ground, shot down JG3 Ltn Buschmann near Hildescheim. 

Dix was a combined air/ground ace. Walter Gresahm, also w/4 air and three ground probably shot down Egon Mayer on 2 March, 1944 SE of Charleroi. I have that combat film.

Regards,

Bill


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## drgondog (Nov 26, 2007)

Erich said:


> it does not make sense anyway because of the theater of ops for JG 52, E.H. shot down 15th AF fighters not 8th



Erich this was during the first Shuttle Mission cycle from 21 June June 27. Hofer and several others were forced to abort from mission on 26 June out of Piryatin. He rejoined 4th at Foggia on 30 June and flew out of Foggia on the 2nd of July for his last mission.

Last seen climbing to engae 18-20 Me 109s over Budapest, and wreckage and body near QP-X at airfield at Mostar, Yugoslavia - 200 miles away.

Last speculation was airfield flak


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## smilefan (Apr 20, 2011)

Wikipedia lists USMC's first ace, Marion Carl (18 kills) as the likely victor over well known IJN ace,
Junichi Sasai (27 kills), immortalized in Saburo Sakai's "Samurai!" as his commander at Lea, New Guinea.
Sasai was killed Aug. 26, 1942 over Henderson Field.

IJN ace Keisaku Yoshimura (12 kills) shot down and killed
on Oct 25th, 1942 by Marine Corp ace Joe Foss (26 kills).

On Nov. 11th, 1943 over Rabaul, Navy ace, A.B. "Chick" Smith (10 kills) shot down
a Zero flown by IJN ace, Sekizen Shibayama (13 kills?). Shibayama survived.

On June 9th, 1942 over Lae, New Guinea, USAAF ace Curran "Jack" Jones (5 kills) 
shot down and killed IJN ace, Satoshi Yoshino (15 kills).

Oct 21st, 1942, Navy ace Frank Drury (6 kills), shots down and kills
famous IJN ace Toshio Ota (34 kills), who was part of Saburo Sakai's
"Cleanup Crew" at Lea, New Guinea.


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 20, 2011)

Smilefan, please try to combine your posts.


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## Kongo Otto (May 15, 2011)

Wildcat said:


> Been doing some more reading on Caldwell and it seems he is also credited with shooting down Luftwaffe ace Hauptmann Wolfgang Lippert (29 victories?). Caldwell shot him down on 23rd Nov. 1941 whilst flying a Tomohawk. Lippert bailed out but broke both his legs when he hit the ground. He was found by British troops and taken to a hospital in Cairo. Whilst in hospital, Gangrene set in and both legs were amputated, however he died of an embolism moments later.



At November 1st 1940 Lippert shot down one of RAF's Top Aces Archie McKellar (21 Victories, No. 605 Squadron RAF).

"We were up and we saw a crowd of these and we were way above them and so Archie said "Come on, here we go down", so we went down but we were much too fast, the dive I know why, we went down like 'that' and the 109s saw us and we overshot them on the way down. A quick burst, they turned and were gone; we overshot. Well, once you do that, I mean, you've had it, you go home, but I did anyway. But Archie being what he was, he thought "No, no, I'm going to chase these so and so's" and that's, unfortunately, was the end of Archie. He went on, on his own, didn't look around, chasing this chap and the last thing was, they saw him going straight into a field in Kent. It's a lesson that I suppose you should've learnt; you just don't take too many chances" - Wing Commander Robert W. Foster DFC AE lecturing in Finland, June 2004

Bob Foster in Finland


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