# Normandy



## reddragon (Jun 6, 2005)

I wonder what it was like in Normandy right about now?






(Photo by Robert Capa)


From this day to the ending of the world . . . we in it shall be remembered . . . we band of brothers; for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 6, 2005)

U referring to ur picture??? If so, it was a nightmare....... The water was red.... Enough said......


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## reddragon (Jun 6, 2005)

No, I was thinking about the airdrops being made the night before. It's 11:30 locally which I guess means it would be about 6:30 there. There's been a night of heavy fighting and confusion, and the landings will soon start. I'll bet those airdrops were very frightening.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 6, 2005)

LOL frightening??? I cant imagine doin it with the gear they had back then, into unknown territory, in the dark, with 70 pounds of gear on u...

Bunch of 17 and 18 year olds pissin their pants.......


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## evangilder (Jun 6, 2005)

Truly amazing that they did what they did with what they had.


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## Maestro (Jun 6, 2005)

Two great sites on Operation Overlord...
 http://search.eb.com/dday
 http://www.dday.co.uk/

I used them to write my novel. I wanted it to be as accurate as possible.


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## trackend (Jun 6, 2005)

The beachs of D-Day indeed the longest day for many, remembered by many and a mighty step forward in gaining freedom for millions.


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## evangilder (Jun 6, 2005)

Nice pictures, trackend! Indeed, today was a great day for the cause of freedom and I am ever thankful for all of the guys that hit that beach 61 years ago today. May the ones who died rest in peace and know that their death was not in vain. May the survivors be able to calm the nightmares and know that the generations after them are indebted to them.


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## trackend (Jun 6, 2005)

The pictures are from Maestros recommended web site Evan I went to Normandy 4 years ago and drove a long the coast road past all the landing sites I spent some time at Arromanche getting some pictures for my old man the museum there is very good. There seemed to be memorials everywhere to particular units or corps erected by the mates of fallen comrades. Although I found the French have turned it into a tourist industry the poignancy of what the various places moment in history represent still seem to pervade the area and over power the buy a D-day balloon mentality.


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## Karbine (Jun 6, 2005)

guys im collecting kinda an archieve in the comments section of the d-day bit on my site,just wondering could you post up some of your respects or views on d-day below

Archieve Here


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 6, 2005)

My Godmother's (a distant cousin) brother was killed at Omaha. My mom told me "he never made it off the boat." He was 19.


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 6, 2005)

I salute them all and owe my freedom to the thousands who died on that day...and the millions that died throughout the whole war...


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## Karbine (Jun 6, 2005)

do you mind posting that ?


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 6, 2005)

Wilco!


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## plan_D (Jun 6, 2005)

It was the greatest achievement in military history. To be thrown on to a beach with the sea to your back, the enemy to your front, every single one needs to be thanked and saluted. 

They might not have chosen to be there but none protested, all were scared and for everyone that gave their life, three made it up that beach to bring the war to an end.

With every protest today, the people should remember that it wouldn't be possible without the sacrifices made on that day, 6th June, 1944...Thanks, lads...


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 6, 2005)

And we musnt forget the brave paras dropped behind enemy lines either.


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## plan_D (Jun 6, 2005)

Of course not. Many dropping their weapons and marching off not knowing where they are, where their unit was or where they were going. What could have been the worst military disaster in history was made one of the, if not the, greatest military achievements by the acts of these men. 

They might have been wearing a uniform but these men were far and large just civilians in a military uniform and taught the basics but they still did it!


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## evangilder (Jun 6, 2005)

plan_D said:


> It was the greatest achievement in military history. To be thrown on to a beach with the sea to your back, the enemy to your front, every single one needs to be thanked and saluted.
> 
> They might not have chosen to be there but none protested, all were scared and for everyone that gave their life, three made it up that beach to bring the war to an end.
> 
> With every protest today, the people should remember that it wouldn't be possible without the sacrifices made on that day, 6th June, 1944...Thanks, lads...



Very well put, plan_d!


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## Erich (Jun 6, 2005)

I also must say I remember those that were to the south on their way to freeing Rome, much forgotten as Normandie takes the limelight


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## trackend (Jun 6, 2005)

That's why they nick named themselves the D-day dodgers Erich


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## Karbine (Jun 6, 2005)

Thanks for posting your comments guys,if anyone else would please do


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## Maestro (Jun 6, 2005)

Okay, may be you're gonna throw rocks at me but I must make sure about that...

I read in a book (a long while ago) that _some_ of US casualities at Omaha beach could have been avoided. I read that, before the D-Day landings, British army developped a tank specialy designed for that operation. (You know, the kind of tank who can float on the water... I forgot the English name of it.) They suggested to the US to supply them with the new tank but they refused. Was it true or not, I don't know. I never read about that elsewhere.

But of corse, a lot of them whould still have died because they had the bad luck to land in front of the 352nd German Division that was carrying out a practice counter-attack.


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## Karbine (Jun 6, 2005)

EVERYONE THROW THE ROCKS!!! 

I think that is kinda true i saw a thing on tv about british designs the americans didnt want and later in the war they noticed they should have used them


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## trackend (Jun 6, 2005)

I think you're referring to the DD tanks Maestro (or duplex drive swimming tanks, part of the now famous Hobarts funnies) they launched I believe 10 of them too far out and due to the extremely poor sea conditions the tide drifted them down the coast.
Instead of going ashore then driving up back to the landing zone they tried to fight against the current this meant they had a beam on sea which folded the screens and swamped them,so they sunk as a result the US troops on Omaha had no Armour for support where as the other landing sites they swam ashore in the first wave as you infer this may have made a big difference in the initial phase of the landings and reduced the casualties considerably.
A few Sherman's would have been very handy on Omaha


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## plan_D (Jun 6, 2005)

No, that's wrong. The British designed the Duplex-Drive (DD), they fitted the device on to the M4 Sherman to be used on D-Day. The U.S forces accepted the tank and used it on Utah beach while the British and Canadians used them on Gold, Juno and Sword. 

What happened on Omaha was that the DD Shermans were let out too early. The commanders were too frightened of getting too close so let the DDs out earlier than everyone else, right into the rough currents further out from shore. This caused many to sink or just get dragged away from the Omaha beach.


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## trackend (Jun 6, 2005)

Which bit are you refering too D?


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## reddragon (Jun 6, 2005)

I've also heard it said that the DD tanks were put out too far away from shore. It seems I've heard they were "launched" about 2 to 3 miles from shore and they should have been brought at least a mile closer, but I can't be sure.


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## plan_D (Jun 6, 2005)

None of your post, trackend. I'd posted on Maestro's, you obviously got in before me [you git].


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## lesofprimus (Jun 6, 2005)

I was at Normandy in 1993 and I still have fond memories of it... 

I remember, while I was still in Electronics school, we went to the local VA (Veterans Administration) and went around the hospital talking with these Vets, and it changed my life... Id been around military people all my life, from my Grandpas side of things in WWII, to my Dads in Nam... 

But this was different. These guys were all in different stages of dying, and 3/4's of em just wished that they could have died saving one of his buddies that didnt make it..... I'll admit this because it matters, but i started to cry when one Guy told me how he earned his Silver Star at Normandy, and how he would have given his life just to save 1 more guy....

I get kinda depressed around this time of year, Memorial Day and D Day...... My way of showing grief...

Salute!


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## Maestro (Jun 6, 2005)

plan_D said:


> No, that's wrong. The British designed the Duplex-Drive (DD), they fitted the device on to the M4 Sherman to be used on D-Day. The U.S forces accepted the tank and used it on Utah beach while the British and Canadians used them on Gold, Juno and Sword.
> 
> What happened on Omaha was that the DD Shermans were let out too early. The commanders were too frightened of getting too close so let the DDs out earlier than everyone else, right into the rough currents further out from shore. This caused many to sink or just get dragged away from the Omaha beach.



Oh, well... Thanks for the information. I always thought US refused the "new" tanks.


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## trackend (Jun 7, 2005)

It seems that guilt is a big factor with a lot of these fellas Les.
Guilt that they survived and their mates didn't. Unfortunately death is not selective, neither is luck and assuaging them is not possible.
As a personel foot note I would like to say how pleased I am to see a large number of young fellas on this sight who recognise the meaning of the sacrifice and appauling consequences of war it is on your heads lads to remind the world of the results of going into conflicts its not a video game or Tom Hanks running about on a beach in Irland so many people seem to have trouble deferentiating between fact and fiction these days
So carry the flag for peace and freedom guys its one that millions have died trying too in the past, and are as we speak. 
Its to those I turn my thoughts too on days such as this. I am not religious but if there was a god Im sure he would bless the fallen.


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## mosquitoman (Jun 7, 2005)

Everybody involved deserves praise for what they did, but not just for D-Day itsself, but for D+1, D+2 until the end of the war


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## trackend (Jun 7, 2005)

very true Mossie


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 7, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> I was at Normandy in 1993 and I still have fond memories of it...
> 
> I remember, while I was still in Electronics school, we went to the local VA (Veterans Administration) and went around the hospital talking with these Vets, and it changed my life... Id been around military people all my life, from my Grandpas side of things in WWII, to my Dads in Nam...
> 
> ...



When I went earlier in the year and we walked around the American cemetary I was on the brink of tears myself...


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## Karbine (Jun 7, 2005)

yea i bet,cementrys are very emotional


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## lesofprimus (Jun 7, 2005)

Especially the ones at Normandy, or any Battlefield cemetaries for that matter..


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## evangilder (Jun 7, 2005)

The same holds true for the war memorials. I saw the scale replica of the Vietnam memorial that was travelling around a few years ago. It's like 1/2 or 1/3 scale and still very large. It was a very moving and emotional experience for me.


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 7, 2005)

Yes, the war memorials are emotional to some degree, but the cemeteries in Europe particularly so. I've been to a few myself, in the Netherlands and Germany. The added presence of any surviving vets is always moving, no matter what. 
If I ever make it to Washington DC, the Vietnam Memorial is high on my list of places to visit.


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## evangilder (Jun 7, 2005)

I think the Iwo Jima and WWII memorials in Washington would be the toughest for me. Nam is a toughie too, but Iwo for me is a subject that I got choked up about in my presentation. Tough one for me to get through.


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## Erich (Jun 7, 2005)

the Vietnam memorial definately is a must see only for the fact that this so-called war has not been that long ago and is still too fresh in some of our minds. the traveling mobil is dark and disconcerting the way that it should be. Just looking at the 50,000 or so names is mind numbing enough.

going to Arlington to see the many white crosses from many wars really hits ya in the face and there really isn't anything that you can say once you get first glimpse. Try waling down a row, surrounded by white crosses and you will be changed forever. But so is the usual cold black-grey crosses of a German military Friedhof. Not so much the opposite effect as just the feeling of helplessness...........a terrible feeling I will assure you.

with respect to those that have fallen from both sides 

Erich ~


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## lesofprimus (Jun 7, 2005)

Ive been to the memorials in DC, as well as the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier... Words cant describe the feeling of watching men in their 50's and 60' crying at The Wall...


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 7, 2005)

There's a Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Ottawa too, as part of the National War Memorial. It's quite a sombre memorial to those lost in the World Wars, Korea, and since. You can't help but feel just a little overcome at places like that.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 7, 2005)

Another place is the Punchbowl in Hawaii - I real tearjerker!


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 7, 2005)

I'll bet the Arizona Memorial is. I've never actually been there.


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## Erich (Jun 7, 2005)

My father in-law has been there 3 times. He served on a tin-can druing the latter part of the war in the pacific and witnessed the kamikaze attacks on a great many different ships not just the Carriers as the history books and channels try to document.

He was almost destined to be part of that ill-fated crew and the line was drawn just a couple of names above his for service on her.


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 7, 2005)

Fateful indeed.


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## Maestro (Jun 7, 2005)

I was just reviewing some of the page on one of the web sites I posted here earlier...

Some D-Day battles or post D-Day battles are easily forgotten...

American Rangers landings at Pointe-du-Hoc, June 6th, 1944 :

_"Rudders Rangers" all 225 of them, were now on the very small beach at Pointe du hoc, The only thing between them and the German Guns were 100 ft. cliffs and well dug in German troops to meet them at the top!!_

Free French Forces No. 10 Commando and British No. 4 Commando at Ouistreham, June 6th to June 9th, 1944 :

_French troops of the No.10 (Inter Allied) Commando Brigade, under the command of Major Philippe Keiffer, accompanied by the British No.4 Commando attacked the town of Ouistreham, which is situated on the eastern most point of Sword Beach. Their objective being, the battery of guns, which were dug in around the casino and were responsible for terrific casualties to the British troops who were landing on the beach.
Thanks to a French gendarme giving the commandos detailed information of the German positions, an attack, led by the French was implemented.

The French No.10 Commandos and British No.4 eventually silenced the German guns at Ouistreham and relieved the situation on the beach head.
As Keiffer and his men were attacking the Casino, Lord Lovatt, who was in overall command of the commando brigades, moved quickly in-land, with No.6 Commando in the lead. They soon outflanked the German defences and seized the village of Colleville-Montgomery.

[...]Standing 52ft. High, "The Grand Bunker" The German Headquarter which was in charge of the batteries covering the entrance of the river Orne and the Caen canal, was an unforeseen obstacle to the Franco British commandos, when they attempted to approach the tower on June 6th. they were repulsed by machine gun fire and stick grenades which were thrown from the top. It was decided to skirt the bunker and carry on with their mission. The bunker remained a threat to the allies until June 9th. when lieutenant Bob Orrell of Royal Engineers, 91 Field Company R.E. 3rd. Beach Group, 3rd. Canadian Div. 2nd. British Army. Accompanied by three men, placed explosive charges at the armour plated door, it took a total of 4 hours before the door was breached! Only at this point did the garrison of two officers and fifty men surrender._

Canadian and British troops at Caen, June 6th to July 19th, 1944 :

_The city was totally ringed with German defences. It was essential that the village of Le Carpiquet and the airfield west of Caen was captured, in order to achieve a successful attack on the city itself. JULY 4th After massive air and artillery support the Canadian 8th. Brigade under the command of Brigadier Blackader and supported by the 79th. Armoured Division moved forward to try and take these objectives.

The calibre of the German defenders cannot be overstated, they were of the highest imaginable. The Canadians were met by no less than The Hitler Jungen Division!! The fighting was ferocious, even with all the firepower available to the Canadians, they struggled to take the village of Le Carpiquet, but take it they did, at tremendous cost. 350 killed in action and the airfield was only partially taken. The Royal Winnipeg Rifles again took most casualties, with 100 men killed, only to be back where they started when the day was over...

[...]The British Infantry at Caen took terrific losses!! It was decided by Monty's 2nd. in Command, Leftenant-General Dempsey to mount a major push using Bomber Command and Artillery bombardment. This was followed by the British 11th. Armoured Division moving up to take on the German defenders, most of which had been killed during the bombardment, others quickly surrendered in a total state of shock.

[...]The enormity of the Battle of Caen cannot be related to on a web-site like this. Thousands of men on both sides were killed, hundreds of pieces of heavy armour destroyed. Fortunately for the Allies the battle was won and the lock to Normandy had been opened._

82nd Airborne Division landing at Sainte-Mère-Église, June 5th to June 6th, 1944 :

_At the town of Sainte-Mere-Eglise all hell was let loose when 30 troops of the 3/505th. actually dropped into the town!! The German defenders didn't give them a chance, and cut them down before they had the chance to land. One soldier, Private John Steele had a miraculous escape when his parachute snagged on the church steeple, he was left dangling for two hours before the Germans realised he wasn't dead and eventually took him as a prisoner of war. To this day, this man has never been forgotten by the people of Ste-Mere-Eglise. The Divisional Commander, Major-General Matthew Ridgway, who actually parachuted in with his troops, soon realised that the most he could achieve would be the capture of Ste-Mere-Eglise,his most important objective. With 108 men under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel Edward Krause, this was achieved by 5 a.m._

An interresting note on that event :

_It is hard to avoid parachutes in Ste-Mère-Eglise, a lot of the buildings have them painted on the walls. The main street has several W.W.11 memorabilia shops selling anything from German helmets at 850FF. (£85 or $140) American helmets also at the same price.
Uniforms at various prices, It is interesting to browse around and maybe see something that you would like to buy. The town itself is very much the same as it was in 1944. Fortunately it had not been destroyed like so many other parts of Normandy. There are several cafés and hotels in the town, also quaint little shops, selling most goods. The most popular place to visit, after the church is definitely the new AIRBORNE MUSEUM a fabulous tribute to the brave men of the 82nd. and 101st. Airborne. It consists of two buildings shaped in the design of a parachute canopy, one houses a Douglas D.C.3 Da._


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## trackend (Jun 8, 2005)

BROUGHT FROM FRANCE TO LIE AMONG
THE MOST ILLUSTRIOUS OF THE LAND
AND BURIED HERE ON ARMISTICE DAY
11 NOV: 1920, IN THE PRESENCE OF
HIS MAJESTY KING GEORGE V
HIS MINISTERS OF STATE
THE CHIEFS OF HIS FORCES
AND A VAST CONCOURSE OF THE NATION

THUS ARE COMMEMORATED THE MANY
MULTITUDES WHO DURING THE GREAT
WAR PF 1914-1918 GAVE THE MOST THAT
MAN CAN GIVE LIFE ITSELF
FOR GOD
FOR KING AND COUNTRY
FOR LOVED ONES HOME AND EMPIRE
FOR THE SACRED CAUSE OF JUSTICE AND
THE FREEDOM OF THE WORLD

THEY BURIED HIM AMONG THE KINGS
BECAUSE HE
HAD DONE GOOD TOWARD GOD AND TOWARD
HIS HOUSE

I have visited Westminster Abbey many times and I always pause and read this on the tomb of the unknown soldier there although a 14-18 war soldier he is used as a symbol for all the dead of many conflicts right up to the present.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 10, 2005)

Speaking of Memorials. When I was in Washington DC in February I went to the new WW2 memorial and there is nothing like it. It is the best war memorial I have ever seen.

I agree Les it really gets you emotional when you see the Nam vets break down at the wall. I will never forget seeing it.


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## HealzDevo (Jun 11, 2005)

One of the interesting things about those Tombs of the Unknown Soldier is the fact that in most cases it is really and was unknown at the point of burial what nations soldiers were found there. Therefore in theory one of the German Soldiers could be resting in Westminister Abbey in the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 11, 2005)

That I really doubt. Well I dont know about the tomb of unkowns in England but the one in Washington is buried atleast with soldiers who were identifiable as US. One for the Army, Navy, and Airforce.


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 11, 2005)

The one in Ottawa contains the remains of an unidentified Canadian soldier who died in France during WWI. The body was formerly buried near the Vimy Ridge Memorial in France, and was only repatriated to Canada in May of 2000, at the request of the Canadian government.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 11, 2005)

I am not sure where the soldiers at the one in Washington died.


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## trackend (Jun 11, 2005)

> One of the interesting things about those Tombs of the Unknown Soldier is the fact that in most cases it is really and was unknown at the point of burial what nations soldiers were found there. Therefore in theory one of the German Soldiers could be resting in Westminister Abbey in the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.



I think you will find Heal that he was Identified as British but his personal details could not be assertained.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 11, 2005)

I am pretty sure they research quite a bit before they bury them in the tomb.


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## P38 Pilot (Jul 2, 2005)

Plan_D you are right! It pisses me off today to see people protesting and making bad remarks about our soldiers and how America is Evil. Well i want to spit in their face and say... "You would'nt be able to do this [email protected]$t if it wasnt for the men in Normandy and Beyond you sick bas%$* !"

God Bless the Men who fought for our freedom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It makes me even more mad because i had a great-uncle part of the 28th infratry who was killed in belgium just before they crossed the RHine River. He had fought in the Hurtgen Forest and at the Battle of the Buldge. Thank you Uncle Archie! I will never know your Heroic Stories over there!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 3, 2005)

Well I think I speak for all soldiers out there including myself when I say thankyou.


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 4, 2005)

Ive pledged 5 pouns to that...association...thing...(I can even remeber what its called lmao) and a message on a flag that will be in trafalgar square.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 4, 2005)

Well its good of you to donate but shame on your for not knowing who you are donating to


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 5, 2005)

i'm hoping to join the Lincolnshire's Lancaster Association, the officail support group for the BBMF, i pay money to help keep the flying memorials in the air, and get a newsletter!


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 5, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Well its good of you to donate but shame on your for not knowing who you are donating to



I know, I done it late at night when I was tired and got emotional about the advert


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## trackend (Jul 5, 2005)

Aint that somthing to do with the Royal British Legion CC?
I've donated to the RNLI for 20 years I have started to donate too the new Duxford wing and they haved sucked out me blood every 4 months since 1973 as I have some odd antibodies in me veins that they are short of.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 6, 2005)

I am a member of the VFW and American Legion and donate money to them all the time.


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 6, 2005)

trackend said:


> Aint that somthing to do with the Royal British Legion CC?



Thats the one! 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 6, 2005)

Is that anything like the American Legion?


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