# Show of force!



## evangilder (Jun 7, 2005)

This was a show of force in Mosul after some Americans had been
killed. It's shows some UH60's firing on a target illuminated by
a hand held laser, then attacked by a UH-60. That is the description given to me in the e-mail message I received.


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## plan_D (Jun 7, 2005)

How's that for a show of force. 8)


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## evangilder (Jun 7, 2005)

If that doesn't do it, I don't know what will!


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## plan_D (Jun 7, 2005)

A Spectre Gunship?


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 7, 2005)

Beauty.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 7, 2005)

Kick Ass...


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## evangilder (Jun 7, 2005)

I thought so too, Les! My first thought was "get some!". My second thought was "Les has to see this one!"


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## lesofprimus (Jun 7, 2005)

Man, that sound u hear, that chainsaw sound, is music to my ears... I've been in some pretty deep shit, and when those minis go off.... Damn..

I got goosebumps thinking of it...


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## evangilder (Jun 7, 2005)

Yep. It gave me the same thing. But I can tell you that was once one of the most beautiful sounds I could have heard when I did. Sucks to be on the receiving end, but when the fecal matter hits the rotating air circulator, that is the most beautiful music.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 7, 2005)

Yup......

Heres something to get the old fluids pumping........


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 7, 2005)

That's good combat footage.


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## evangilder (Jun 7, 2005)

Wow! I am amazed that someone was actually shooting video at that point. Yep, I could feel the sweat coming on with that one. Whew!


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## lesofprimus (Jun 7, 2005)

Hehe...


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## plan_D (Jun 7, 2005)

God loves the Marines because they kill everything they see.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 7, 2005)

I still hold some hard felt feelings for JarHeads... Cant tell u how many brawls and fights I and We got into with them....

But I still give em props for gettin it done.... War changes atitudes...


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## evangilder (Jun 7, 2005)

It's funny how when the bullets start flying, the interservice rivalries fade away. Once they stop, they come right back.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 8, 2005)

Hehe....


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 8, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> I still hold some hard felt feelings for JarHeads... Cant tell u how many brawls and fights I and We got into with them....
> 
> But I still give em props for gettin it done.... War changes atitudes...



Agree, but remember - MARINES - Muscles Are Required, Intelligence Not Essential


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## plan_D (Jun 8, 2005)

If they get the job done in the field and stop you getting your ass blown off, who cares if their I.Q isn't above their shoe size?


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 8, 2005)

plan_D said:


> If they get the job done in the field and stop you getting your ass blown off, who cares if their I.Q isn't above their shoe size?



Oh yea - but ya gotta love em......somewhat


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## lesofprimus (Jun 8, 2005)

> If they get the job done in the field and stop you getting your ass blown off, who cares if their I.Q isn't above their shoe size?


Well, theres a problem with that.... Its called friendly fire, and I've been on the recieveing end of some Jarheads low IQ's.... When ur not intelligent enough to verify the target you are firing at, u deserve the ass beating u get from a really pissed off E-5, who had a bullet miss his head by 2 feet.....

No Marine ever saved my ass in a firefight... Some Apaches did once, as well as a -130... 

Plain and simple, intelligence matters pD...


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 8, 2005)

As I said - MARINES - Muscles Are Required, Intelligence Not Essential


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## lesofprimus (Jun 8, 2005)

Marines serve their purpose... Superior firepower through sheer numbers.....


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## evangilder (Jun 8, 2005)

Just don't be in the way!


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## lesofprimus (Jun 8, 2005)

Hehe... He was in our way....... Slight scenario here... 

Goin through town... We smoke a few Iraqis... Continue on to extract... Come round corner... SAW opens up... I yell out....... (SAW has distinct sound)

Marine yells back, AND THEN LAUGHS!

Really pissed SEAL comes up to bunker and grabs said Marine by throat...

*Punch, punch, punch*

Marine goes to sleep...

Continue on to extract...


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 8, 2005)

I know it couldn't have been funny, but reading that made me laugh!


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## evangilder (Jun 8, 2005)

Me too. The situation isn't funny, but the way Les tells a story can make it funny. The narrative was comedy gold, Les!


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## lesofprimus (Jun 8, 2005)

LOL. Well, i tried to make it humorous, but it really wasnt... We laughed about me knockin his ass out in the helo after extraction...

Later on in our tent, they were repeating the gurgling sound he was making when I was choking him.. They all thought it sooooooo funny...

It was kinda funny, i gotta admit... The look on his face when I grabbed him is something I'll never forget....


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## plan_D (Jun 8, 2005)

Yes, of course intelligence matters. I was talking general intelligence, like in day to day life. Most Marines don't even have a 6th Grade reading level. 

U.S Military doctrine for a long time has been based around fire superiority, Marines serve that purpose.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 8, 2005)

I agree 200%... Kinda surprised u didnt comment about my Scenario Narration... American Humor???


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## evangilder (Jun 8, 2005)

Or in his case, Humour.


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## plan_D (Jun 8, 2005)

Oh, I thought it was fuckin' hilarious...I just didn't know what to say. 

On that though...what are the Rangers like? I view them as Marine types with a little more intelligence and cunning, would I be right with that..or are they just another bunch of fire superiority loons?


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## Maestro (Jun 8, 2005)

Someone already explained me the difference between Marines and SEALs, but I have an other stupid question...

What's the difference between Marines and Rangers ?

All those names are confusing... They all do the same job : SEEK AND DESTROY.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 8, 2005)

OK cool......

Rangers..... Ill sum it up for u in 2 paragraphs...

Jump School... Ft. Benning... We just graduated from BUDS... We run 18 miles for fun... Those Ranger pukes cant keep up...

I would rate those guys as above average soldiers with above average intelligence, with a better understanding of firepower usage...


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 8, 2005)

Does the US (Army) infantry hierarchy work like this?: Basic infantry, Airborne, Rangers, Special Forces.

Or is that completely off in left field somewhere?


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## plan_D (Jun 8, 2005)

Talking regulars here, the U.S has Army Infantry, Rangers, Airborne and Marines...right? 

Marines we gather are fire superiority, not very smart and as FB will undoubtedly say AGAIN "Muscles Are Required, Intelligence Not Essential"

Rangers are smarter, fitter and more capable in combat. They know how to use their fire superiority better. 

Army infantry, I imagine are lesser in the training department than Marines. 

Airborne, well going off my World War 2 knowledge they're in the same league as Rangers.


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 8, 2005)

Rangers I gather are a little more on the specialist side. Demolitions, small unit tactics, things like that. Not quite special forces, but certainly more than your average grunts. Sound right?


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## plan_D (Jun 8, 2005)

I get that idea from Black Hawk Down and the research I did after watching that movie.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 8, 2005)

> Rangers I gather are a little more on the specialist side. Demolitions, small unit tactics, things like that. Not quite special forces, but certainly more than your average grunts. Sound right?


Yes, they have a tighter battle order... U dont send more highly trained soldiers in to do the job that regualrs can do with acceptable losses..


> Basic infantry, Airborne, Rangers, Special Forces.


Yes thats about it.... Kinda simple..... Most if not all Green Berets are Airborne...

Maestro... There are 4 Basic Parts of the American Military Structure....

Army
Navy
Airforce
Marine Corp

The Marines are their own entity, but require the Navy to move them around... A Marine is a Marine.... A grunt... A marine is trained for about 3 months and then is sent into combat. Sometimes even less...There are some Specialist units within the Marine Corps (Recon ect ect)...

Navy SEAL members are basically the most mentally competent combat operatives in the United States.... The drop out rate is over 75% within the first few weeks... I had more training concerning basic covering fire techniques than the normal Marine has had in his entire carreer...


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## evangilder (Jun 8, 2005)

With the Air Force we had combat controllers, combat communications, forward air controllers (ground and air based) and pararescue jumpers. The PJs are the hardcore guys of the AF. They are the ones who fight their way in, if necessary, get the downed pilot and get the hell out of there. 

I was temporarily assigned, fairly regularly I might add, to combat comm. But that usually involved operating with combat controllers and FACs. Typically, we had 1-2 combat comms with a FAC and a handful of combat controllers (they liked to fancy themselves as "blue marines", I don't know that I would go that far.)

Of all the services SpecOps guys, the SEALs are the ones that I would consider the most bad-ass. I am not just saying that for Les. I have seen some of these guys in the distance smoke out some bad guys and literally disappear into the landscape. It was amazing to watch. They appeared almost out of nowhere (We knew they were coming, bad guys didn't), took out a group of bad guys (not sure how many), and then went away. It was very quick and almost completely silent. 

I can't say any more about it, but can tell you I was impressed, and DAMN glad they were the good guys!


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 8, 2005)

evangilder said:


> ...but can tell you I was impressed, and DAMN glad they were the good guys!


I'll bet you were.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 8, 2005)

And I can tell u just how much we liked those FAC's.... If we didnt have our Seawolves with us, the FAC was the guy on the other end of my stick....

Hehe, I bought a case of COLD beer for a FAC in Somolia..... This cat had balls this big around... *makes hand gesture to bowling ball size*

Nuff about that...

Met a PJ from Nam awhile back... Heard him tell a story about a rescue where he emptied his pistol into 3 NVA to grab the shot and beaten pilot...

1 pistol against 3 AK's is OK in my book....


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## plan_D (Jun 8, 2005)

That's all quite complex then when you look into it. 

Britain is just Light Infantry (Varying regiments of different skill [this being the most complex point of British military]), Paras, RAF Regiment (Rockapes), Royal Marines, Special Forces (Quite altered at times, my dad in the Gulf was under SF command...'cos he was working on the Chinooks FAR FAR into Iraq, ahead of most of the grunts...black things, sending the likes of les to do their work, ANYWAY)...that's famously SBS and SAS...

I imagine that for rescuing downed pilots SAS or SBS..possibly Paras would go do the job...even Royal Marines 'cos they're our 'regular elite' as it were...


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## lesofprimus (Jun 8, 2005)

pD, u do know about the US Airforce Para Rescue Jumpers dont u??? They go down to the pilot suspended from a wire out the side of a CH-53 Jolly Green... (correct if wrong)

By themselves....... With a 9mm and a spare clip..... And someone called me a hero??? 

HA!


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## plan_D (Jun 8, 2005)

That's insane! Are those men insane!? They have to be insane...tell me they're insane! I've heard about those but I never knew how they did it. They must get some form of support from close support aircraft or something, surely. 

I know in Vietnam they had special teams waiting on carriers for rescuing downed pilots. I've read a story about a Recce Voodoo pilot being shot down over the sea, and these Vietcong were going out to him to get him...and this Seaplane (can't remember what it was) planted itself between him and the VC...and these two A-1 Skyraiders came in and blasted the place to hell while he was pulled into the Seaplane...while F-104s flew high cover.


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## evangilder (Jun 9, 2005)

When I left the MEPS station to go to Lackland AFB for basic training, the guy on the flight with me there and the whole time in basic with our group went to PJ training. They really are hardcore. They are an interesting group to watch train too. The have the CH-53 and usually an attack helo or two along for support and air cover if needed. They go in pretty well armed, but still, to hang out in bad guy land in a helo. You just told every goober with a rifle or RPG where you are.

Not the job I wanted. But then, I wasn;t crazy about combat comm either. I remember my first TDY deployment. We were out in the middle of nowhere in one of those third world toilets. It was hotter than hell and even more humid. We were humping the boonies and I thought to myself, "What the fuck is this? I joined the AIR FORCE for crying out loud. This is the job for the Army or the Marines!" 

All in all, it wasn't too bad. I got to deal with extreme weather, huge freakin bugs and some bad guys that were animals. I have never worked so hard, sweated so much or been shit-your-pants scared in my life. But I can also say we played with some cool toys, shot some bitchin weapons and saw places and things that most people never will, and some that you could never dream of. 

And when it came time to play, we drank hard, laughed til we peed and lived it up like there was no tomorrow. We had to, because that was always a possibility that was never spoken of, but kept in the back of your mind.

Perhaps I am being a bit philosophical about it now, after 20 years, but the biggest fear that I remember was letting my buddies down when the shit hit the fan. We all had jobs to do and were all scared shitless, so maybe that was the main fear because we were all afraid. The true measure of a warrior is what happens to him when the bullets start singing by. Some of the toughest talking guys turn to mush while the timid quiet ones end up surprising you.


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## trackend (Jun 9, 2005)

I have spoken too a couples of guys from The Regiment ( its what the members of the SAS call themselves unless its somebody like Chris Ryan trying to make money out of books) not seen them in action. 
As with most special forces not many do and I'm 90% sure I worked with a guy once who was EX regiment.
My father used to land various special forces on raids over too France and Holland before D-Day (he only did it cause it paid 2s6d per day extra) he all ways liked the Army Commandos.
All different shapes and sizes of blokes all ultra-fit all viscous when required but all intelligent , extremly self motivated and not lovers of bullshit.
One raid he told me of landing commandos near a small coastal town upon returning to me old mans landing craft they brought back an officer and his bit of stuff that they had suprised in mid shag the girl was'nt too pleased as she was Dutch and did'nt fancy going too England in her night cloths.


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## plan_D (Jun 9, 2005)

My dad had helped load up the Chinooks in Iraq with these Special Forces lads. He still laughs to this day at some of them, they were all pack and no man!
He also, while on exercise got attacked by SAS. They were told the SAS were coming, as they were on exercise too...and they just ransacked the place. My dad says they saw 'em a mile off because they were just pissing about.


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