# New Guy with a question



## FOG (Jan 11, 2010)

Hi I'm from The Ozarks in AR . I'ma Modeler currentlly helping a friend to construct a large WW II fighter and I cannot find any refrence data for it.

He has a plastic model with good detail but it is not Identified.

We think it is a later model of Grumman F6f but it differs in a few signifanct ways. 

It is not a Bearcat but uses the same engine apperantlly. The gear is articulated and retaacts parallel to the wing. That is, it was too long to just swing up , it has a Knee bend tha folds outward while the wheel swings inward.

Has a bubble canopy like a Bearcat .

I can't find any plane, between the F6F and The F7F .

Any Ideas?

Bill


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## DBII (Jan 11, 2010)

Any pictures?

DBII


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## FOG (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah it just dawned on me that ,that might help a bit. All i have is a 6" model but I get some good shots of it and post them tomorrow.

Bill


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## comiso90 (Jan 11, 2010)

are you sure it's Ameican?

Sea Fury?

I dont think the gear is articulated but it's the closet thing to a Bearcat thats not a Bearcat

http://www.unlimitedair.com/images/history sea fury.jpg

.


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## Colin1 (Jan 11, 2010)

Aren't there any tags on any of the sprues?
I seem to recall these had simple info on the model stamped on them


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## ccheese (Jan 11, 2010)

Welcome to the forum Bill. Like the man says, pic's, even of the box, would be helpful.

Enjoy the place....

Charles


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## FOG (Jan 12, 2010)

Ok mistery solved,

It is a P47 or F8f Bearcat.

If you look at the pictures , the area behind the canopy is not even with the top of the canopy , some call this the razorback.

The landing gear has a "Knee" wich buckles outward first then folds inward.

These two features are what threw me a curve. I have since seen videos of both of these features on Bearcats (or at least P47s) I'm not sure if there is a diffrence.

Here's the video: 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw6UWPaTUt0_

It clearly shows both of thesae features.

Thanks all


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## Airframes (Jan 12, 2010)

Whoa! I didn't look at the second photo, as the first one is huge! You'll need to re-size them to no more than 800 x 600, but the first pic shows a model of a Bearcat. There's a heck of a differnce between a F8 Bearcat and a P47 Thundrbolt. I'm not sure what you mean by the undrcart having a knuckle which folds around - the P47 gear retracts inwards, towards the centreline of the aircraft, in a straight line from the anchor point - far as i know, the Bearcat does also, without any articualtion of the gear legs. The term 'Razorback' was applied to the earlier P47's up until, and including early Block numbers of the 'D' model, and also to the P51 B and C Mustang, and refered to the shaoe of the rear fuselage, where it ran in a continuous line from the fin to the windscreen, incorporating the canopy within this line. To improve visibility, both these aircraft later had 'cut down', lower rear fuselages, with a one-piece, blown canopy, giving rise to the term 'Bubbletop'. 
If your model is a P47, Razorback or Bubbletop, you'll find that the wing is longer, and a completley different shape to that of the Bearcat, as is the fuselage, fin, tailplane, nose, engine cowling, canopy................(turn to page **, covering the small details etc!!)


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## Colin1 (Jan 12, 2010)

FOG said:


> Ok mystery solved,
> 
> It is a P47 or F8F Bearcat.
> 
> ...


1. and some don't... you will generally find aircraft in their earlier 'razorback' configuration have the line of the rear dorsal fuselage a continuation (of sorts) of the canopy. Strictly speaking, the only official razorback by name was the P-47 but the P-51 and the Spitfire all obeyed the same rule. In a familial sense, so did the F6F to the F8F though these were different aircraft of the same manufacturer. The P-40 almost did with the XP-40Q.

2. I can only guess at what you mean here. If you mean the V-shaped angularities around the 'knees' of the oleo legs, those are suspension components which will return the strut to its normal position of travel once the load has been borne by the landing. They don't serve to bend the strut in any way, the two metal linkages at the top of the strut will pull the undercart inwards in order to tuck it away but nothing bends while this is happening.

3. You're throwing yourself a curve  Nice pics by the way, any chance you could reduce to 800 pixels?


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## Wurger (Jan 12, 2010)

Interesting... a modeller who doesn't know of what aircraft model he makes. 

Hej Fog , next time you will want to post a pic, resize it to 830 pixels in its width firstly, please.....


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## FOG (Jan 12, 2010)

Sorry about the image size. Willresize any future pics.

I didn't realize the diffrence between the F8f bearcat and the P47 thunderbolt. I thought trhey were the same aircraft.

I know better now

Well thew Bearcat definatlly has a knee in the gear. a portion bends outward as the main folds inward. Aperantlly to clear tha monster prop they needed a gear taller than the had room for , so they had to fold it.

FOG


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## Colin1 (Jan 12, 2010)

FOG said:


> Well the Bearcat definitely has a knee in the gear. A portion bends outward as the main folds inward. Apparently to clear the monster prop they needed a gear taller than they had room for, so they had to fold it


See pic below for F8F undercarriage leg and let me know where it bends.

The other 'plane you mentioned however, the P-47 actually DID have a technique for getting around the enormous airscrew but this was a telescopic arrangement, rather than any complex folding mechanism; the leg was actually shorter when stowed and longer when deployed for landing.


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## evangilder (Jan 12, 2010)

There is definitely no "knee joint" in the Bearcat gear. Here is a shot of a Bearcat on takeoff and the gear do not do anything unusual. Colin's comment about the suspension parts of the gear are absolutely correct. I have seen many a Bearcat fly many, many times.


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## Airframes (Jan 12, 2010)

Colin has already mentioned the linkage on the Bearcat (and Thunderbolt) gear legs which is what we presume you mean when you refer to a 'knee' joint. This 'knee' link is sometimes called a 'scissor link', the correct term being 'torque link', and it is a two-part linkage, swivel-hinged in the centre, which connects the axle stub to the landing gear strut containing the Oleo, or damper. It's fuction is, basically, to retain the the gear leg and axle, whilst allowing the Oleo to perform its task of acting as a shock absorber, or damper, without the oleo overp-extending. Many, many types of aircraft undercarriage assemblies employ this system, from pre- WW2 fighters, to todays military jets and airliners, and it does not mean that the gear leg bends - quite the opposite in fact. It is intended to keep the leg straight! 
Now you know that the Bearcat and P47 are not the same aircraft, which is a good start. They are also from different manufacturers, and to an extent, different eras, as the Bearcat was just too late to see action in WW2. If yoo look at the two aircraft, apart from differing roles, the Bearcat being originally intended for naval, carrier operations, you'll see that there are tremendous differences is overall shape and size, not to mention weight! A quick read of the specifications, and design histories of the two types, should enlighten you even further. To say that they are the same aircraft is rather like saying a Model T Ford is the same as a Ferrari. They're both cars - but vastly different!


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 12, 2010)

Looks like a Bearcat to me. How would I know? I had a calendar last year with a picture of a Bearcat one month and I built the old Testors 1/48th scale kit back around 1979. 

Not very impressive qualifications but I just had to get my two cents in.


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## Wurger (Jan 12, 2010)

FOG said:


> Sorry about the image size. Willresize any future pics.



No problem Mate. I did it for you. Stay with us and enjoy.


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## Njaco (Jan 12, 2010)

I don't think its a Bearcat. A FR-1 Ryan Fireball ....

FR Fireball - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


with both piston and jet engine.


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## Airframes (Jan 12, 2010)

You know Chris, when our friend mentioned that it looked like a Bearcat but wasn't, I immediately thought of the Ryan, but I'll admit I couldn't remember the name 'Fireball' at the time. And there once was a kit of this, by a small company, possibly mixed media, which could explain the lack of information with the kit.
The thing is, so far, we've only seen pics of a model of a Bearcat - with a rather droopy wing too! I also thought perhaps, with nothing to refer to regarding scale/size, that maybe our chap had a Skyraider on his hands. A photo of the actual model in question would work wonders!


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## Njaco (Jan 12, 2010)

I know. I thought the same when posted and then went rushing to my library as I do have a book on the history of the Ryan. But do you think I could find it??!! Only after several minutes did I remember "Fireball".


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## Airframes (Jan 12, 2010)

I was the same. I could picture the thing, see in my mind photos, silhouette three-views and a profile. I knew it was probably a Ryan product I was thinking of, but couldn't remember the name, and was too stiff and sore to make the trip across the room to my book shelves - or was that just laziness?!!


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## FOG (Jan 12, 2010)

Airframe got it right.

Here's a video that shows it. Look at time 1:30 to 1:40 in the video. You will see the right gear fold up on takeoff by buckling outward at the knee or top hinge as the main part of the strut folds inwards.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sf5ygd_hAA_


To Colin 1 On you beautiful photo (thanks) look at the upper Yoke, through the ears on it, see the pivot pin? That yoke moves outboard as the hydurlic strut pulls the main leg inward this effectivly shorten the gear when stowed. I have been looking for that much detail in all this search. I'm designing the gear retract machinery for a large Model of this plane that will weigh so 70 + lbs. Such large gear as this doesn't exist, except custom made. I am also a retired toolmaker /Engineer.

Thanks to Wurger for the resize job, I didn't know that you could resize a photo after it was posted. You post you location as Poland. But your use of the term "Mate" says Australia.


FOG


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## Wurger (Jan 12, 2010)

FOG said:


> Thanks to Wurger for the resize job, I didn't know that you could resize a photo after it was posted. You post you location as Poland. But your use of the term "Mate" says Australia.
> 
> 
> FOG



You'r welcome. 

As far as using of the term "Mate" is concerned..being not a native I have to be much flexible than others.


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## Colin1 (Jan 12, 2010)

FOG said:


> To Colin1 on your beautiful photo (thanks) look at the upper Yoke, through the ears on it, see the pivot pin? That yoke moves outboard as the hydraulic strut pulls the main leg inward this effectively shortens the gear when stowed


Fog
there's nothing unconventional about the way the F8F tucks its wheels in. Your description is probably the culprit for any misunderstanding...



FOG said:


> ..it has a knee bend that folds outward while the wheel swings inward


...knee bend?



FOG said:


> I have been looking for that much detail in all this search. I'm designing the gear retract machinery for a large model of this plane that will weigh so 70 + lbs. Such large gear as this doesn't exist, except custom made. I am also a retired toolmaker/Engineer


Sorry if this sounds a bit off but I'm a little bemused that you couldn't even identify the subject of what sounds like a complex and involved project, with an example sat in front of you 

Good luck with it and keep us posted with pics whenever possible


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## Colin1 (Jan 12, 2010)

FOG said:


> ...your use of the term "Mate" says Australia


It's a global forum Fog
we borrow terms from each other


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## evangilder (Jan 12, 2010)

Now I see what you are talking about.



> The gear and flaps are hydraulically actuated, and have some interesting features. The 15-foot prop is so big, and the airplane so short, the gear had to be made in size "extra-long." This presented an interesting design challenge, in that the gear must be mounted far enough out on the wing to allow the gear to swing inwards. The further out on the wing the gear is mounted, the more structure is required, and more structure means more weight. Grumman came up with an interesting design where the gear leg pivots about a foot down from the wing, with the top moving outwards, and the wheel swinging up and in.









It's more of a pivot than a knee, but I see what you mean now.


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## FOG (Jan 12, 2010)

Thats what I called a Knee. .

FOG


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## Njaco (Jan 12, 2010)

Colin1 said:


> It's a global forum Fog
> we borrow terms from each other



Bloody 'ell, you long-range sniper, mate!


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## FOG (Jan 13, 2010)

Thanks to all you guys for the help in solveing my problem. My friend remembered the early F8Fs having a razorback , that's what led us to think that model was something else.
I was was just a tyke when Pearl Harbor happened but during the Pacific war I was very knowledgeable about the fighter planes. All the boys were.
That was a long time ago, I was a modeler then but there was a long span in between then and now. I currently fly large sport gas powered planes. 
I'm a retired Engineer and Toolmaker with a shop out back that I help others in the craft with the machined bits.
Here's a picture of the only war bird I have, and me.

FOG AKA Bill

BTW FOG = Fast Old Guy from my MC racing days


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## Geedee (Jan 13, 2010)

Hi Bill and welcome to the family

Mmmmmmmm....Mustangs....drool !


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## Colin1 (Jan 13, 2010)

FOG said:


> BTW FOG = Fast Old Guy from my MC racing days


Does MC mean motor car or motor cycle?
We've got a couple of guys on here that run race rigs (cars)
I've got a couple of cars that I mess with, I've got the engine out of one for a winter rebuild but I don't race them


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## Crimea_River (Jan 13, 2010)

Hey FOG, I like your Mustang scheme. Did one just like it in 1/48!


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## Wurger (Jan 13, 2010)

Oh..a great looking model of P-51. Well done.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Jan 28, 2010)

Cool looking Mustang Bill. 

A bit later than the rest but Welcome to the Forum. 8)


Wheels


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## N4521U (Jan 28, 2010)

Well FOG, if your only gonna have One, that's the One to have!!!!!!!! but it needs a 4 bladed prop! .... cheers, Bill from CA now in Oz.........


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