# The Greatest Air Battle



## Njaco (Sep 20, 2008)

Thought it would be interesting to get everyone's opinion on the greatest air battle during WWII. I'm not talking single combat actions but a battle with squadrons of planes and with objectives whether achieved or not.

These are the ones I could think of off the top of my head. And I hope the Pacific experts can teach me about some of the combats on the other side of the world because I have no clue beside the one I listed.


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 20, 2008)

There's the MTO and NA to consider too. (and the CBI)


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## Freebird (Sep 21, 2008)

Njaco said:


> And I hope the Pacific experts can teach me about some of the combats on the other side of the world because I have no clue beside the one I listed.


I think there was some minor fracas near Midway Island in 1942....


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## Arsenal VG-33 (Sep 21, 2008)

I've always been impressed by accounts of the air battle over Dieppe, during the raid there in 1942. I remember reading that for many pilots, the air battle over a rather small area was of such a heavy intensity that none of the survivors would ever forget.


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## Freebird (Sep 21, 2008)

Arsenal VG-33 said:


> I've always been impressed by accounts of the air battle over Dieppe, during the raid there in 1942. I remember reading that for many pilots, the air battle over a rather small area was of such a heavy intensity that none of the survivors would ever forget.



Very good option VG-33! 8) 

That would be Operation "Jubilee" air battle.


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## comiso90 (Sep 21, 2008)

A poll with almost no wrong answers.. If I was a dummy I'd say "Define great?" but the purpose is to facilitate conversation..
The Turkey Shoot was great but involved too many inexperienced Japanese pilots.

Bodenplate was the cream of the luft vs. the best of the western allies.

gotta go for Bodenplate.

Battle of Britain was so protracted IMO it wasnt a "Battle". It was a campaign. It is accepted as a Battle only because of the pleasant illiteration. 

.


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## Freebird (Sep 21, 2008)

comiso90 said:


> Battle of Britain was so protracted IMO it wasnt a "Battle". It was a campaign. It is accepted as a Battle only because of the pleasant illiteration.
> 
> .




Ok, how about "Battle of Britain Day" Sept 15?


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## comiso90 (Sep 21, 2008)

freebird said:


> Ok, how about "Battle of Britain Day" Sept 15?



Thank you... I will digest that.

Truly a battle.


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## Njaco (Sep 21, 2008)

> Ok, how about "Battle of Britain Day" Sept 15?



Its up there along with "The Hardest Day" 18 Aug. I was trying to seperate campaigns with just a single day battle with an objective - no campaigns or single combats. I know I missed some.

Good points about those others. Let me see if I can add them.


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## pbfoot (Sep 21, 2008)

the air battle over Dieppe in Aug 42 the following from Wiki
The massive Allied air support for the operation amounted to about 70 squadrons, with the overwhelming majority coming from RAF Fighter Command, including 48 squadrons of Spitfires including all three Eagle Squadrons.[5] The opposing Luftwaffe forces were: Jagdgeschwader 2 (JG2) and JG 26, with 200 fighters, mostly the new Focke-Wulf Fw 190s and about 100 bombers from Kampfgeschwader 2 (KG2), KG 45 and KG 77, mostly Dornier 217s. On paper at least, the Allies would have a numerical advantage.

The Allies were, in reverse to the Battle of Britain, at the extent of the operating range of most fighters and had a limited time over target, while the Germans were mostly flying from or could refuel at nearby airfields. This enabled the Germans to maintain a numerical superiority and have air superiority over the battle area once they had concentrated their effort.

Overhead the Allied air forces lost 119 aircraft while the Luftwaffe lost just 46.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 21, 2008)

For epicness I am going to have to go with Bodenplatte, but in the end it is the BoB. So much depended on a British victory that it is epic in itself.


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## renrich (Sep 21, 2008)

A little bit a question of semantics. Does "greatest" mean biggest, longest, widest, most AC involved, most AC shot down? If greatest means most influential, then I vote for Midway, perhaps one of the most influential battles in history.


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## drgondog (Sep 21, 2008)

I struggled with Dieppe, BoB 9/15 and Bodenplatte and finally went with Bodenplatte because it was an "all Allied AF" against the biggest mission the LW ever put up - literally 1000's of a/c in a relatively small volume of airspace..

The 8th AF and the LW had some epic battles in November 1944, thinking about 11/2, 11/26 and 11/27 as well as 9/11. 

The 11/2 missions against Merseburg area refineries was perhaps the most concentrated single action in a small area for the 8th AF. Of the 1100 effective bombers, 800 were over the Merseburg/Halle area. Of the 640 Mustangs involved in target escort for the day, 433 were engaged with nearly 350 LW s/e and t/e fighters over those eastern Germany targets.

This was also the last time the LW got as many as the 40 bombers that went down to flak and fighters.

The air battles around Market Garden campaign were also notable as well as Malta albeit on a smaller scale.

As far as most important air battle for the US I would go with Midway, for the Brits it would have to be BoB. I would have a hard time defininng the most important for USSR but suppose Kursk.. LW would be hard to define but BoB should be there as well as the first series of 8th AF raids on Berlin for symbolic reasons - not being able to stop 8th AF over their own capital. Those missions probably were the 'end of the beginning' or the beginning of the end' depending on your point of view.


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## GrauGeist (Sep 21, 2008)

Perhaps the Kassel raid of 27 September 44 might be considered, where it was a bomber versus fighter event.

The 35 B-24s of the 445th BG that strayed over Gottingen suffered, but made a showing of themselves against 150 aircraft of the Luftwaffe.


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## drgondog (Sep 21, 2008)

GrauGeist said:


> Perhaps the Kassel raid of 27 September 44 might be considered, where it was a bomber versus fighter event.
> 
> The 35 B-24s of the 445th BG that strayed over Gottingen suffered, but made a showing of themselves against 150 aircraft of the Luftwaffe.



The Kassel raid is similar to Leipzig/Merseburg on July 7 and Hannover on November 26, but battles for Berlin on March 6, 1944 or April 29, 1944 saw far more bomber losses in toto for a great fighter battle than Kassel. 

What was somewhat unique about Kassel and Hannover was the violence and focus in one very small area in a very short time.. before escort fighters were able to intervene. Both of thes battles demonstrated the effectiveness of the Sturm Gruppe - when escort fighters were absent.


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## Erich (Sep 21, 2008)

it was the four fighter groups of the 8th AF that took it to JG 4 and JG 300 on 27 of September 44. IV.Sturm./JG 3 shot down 18 B-24's in their first pass and upon forming up again the Mustangs got into the action but JG 3 dove out and got down but still had 6 wounded pilots in their Fw 190A-8 Sturms from the bombers as they flew away

2 November 44 is another confusing day JG 4 and JG 3 claimed some 50 bombers but returned nearly the same amount of their machines as being shot down. I./Jg 300 was to be airborne as high cover but JG 3 109's came into land at their A/F and Bill's dad's fg the 355th fg followed close behind as the 109's of Jg 3 landed at Börkheide the 355th fg shot the place to pieces and destroyed some 32 I./Jg 300 Bf 109G's not to mention the 109's of JG 3 they ripped apart.


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## Njaco (Sep 21, 2008)

Greatest in this context is only on a personal level. What each member feels is his personal favorite. I was just curious where everyone's tastes were, not so much as a litmus test to find the all time awesome battle. Just for discusion sake and some great points have been made.

I haven't even voted becuase I can't really choose yet. All the pilots in all those battles have my admiration because of the extraordinary situation they were put in.


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## pbfoot (Sep 21, 2008)

I voted other but then the other was added to the poll hence no vote


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## Njaco (Sep 21, 2008)

Sorry PB, but you made a good point and I wanted to include it.


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## pbfoot (Sep 21, 2008)

Njaco said:


> Sorry PB, but you made a good point and I wanted to include it.


I'll live but it certainly was more intense IMHOP then anything in the Pacific


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## Erich (Sep 21, 2008)

Njaco maybe you need to be more specific in your quest for the poll, what is deemed the greatest ? losses, kills, tactics, surprise, non-surprise, most meaningful in the long run of the month or year of the war ?

there seems to be too many favorable quantities here in my opinion


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## Venganza (Sep 22, 2008)

I voted for the Battle of Midway because of how badly it crippled the Japanese Navy in such a short time (3 major carriers sunk in 10 minutes or so). It was the most important air battle in the Pacific in my opinion. In Europe, the argument might be made that the airwar during the battle of Kursk (Operation Zitadelle) was extremely important, as it helped turned back the last major offensive operation of the war for the Nazis (not excluding the Battle of the Bulge). The problem with the Kursk airwar is that it happened not over a few days but over a week and a half and the statistics, like so much else about the Eastern Front, seem to be fairly murky and subject to debate. It also involved relatively small tactical formations, not large strategic operations. Still, the Soviet attack aircraft, fighting their way through heavy Luftwaffe opposition, who had to contend with Soviet fighters, inflicted heavy casualties on the German armored units, in addition to suffering heavy losses themselves. As a matter of fact, if anyone has some relatively concrete numbers of the losses on both sides in the Kursk airwar, I'd like to see them.


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## Njaco (Sep 22, 2008)

You're right Erich. I was trying to get an idea of what everyone thought was their favorite (and maybe that was the word I should have used) air battle and why they thought so. There is so much specific type of aircraft or campaign/theatre threads I was thinking that it would be interesting which single day (or small group of days) was outstanding in someones mind.

As an example:

The Hardest Day: 18 Aug 40 seemed to me a fascinating day of combat between the low level Dornier strike, the Stuka attacks, the use of balloons and how Fighter Command responded. A hard day for anyone to get through and I admire that.

Venganza, there is a recent thread that was discussing your exact questions.


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## RabidAlien (Sep 22, 2008)

I have to stand and salute each and every pilot involved in each and every battle listed, as well as those not listed. I personally would have put either the Cactus Air Force or those brave pilots defending Wake Island with nothing more than ducttape and prayers, but those two were not individual battles. Of all those listed, the one that _always _jumps out at me is the Ploesti Raid. If ever a mission could have gone off with so much stacked against it, and still be considered at least partially a success, that would be it.


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## renrich (Sep 22, 2008)

Two other major air battles to consider would be the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, 2-5 March, 1943 and Operation Hailstone, 17-18 February, 1944, the operation to neutralize the IJN base at Truk. Not as influential to the war's outcome as Midway but very important.


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## parsifal (Sep 22, 2008)

I think the RAFs 1000 bomber raid or the devastating raids overv Hamburg July 1943 ought to be considered, as they were among the first truly successful offensive raids over germany. I think it was Speer who said something like "three more raids like that and we are done for!!!! Kaput Ya!!!! Perhaps overstating their effect, but they were successful nevertheless.

But in my opinion, the "greatest" raids are reserved for the FAA. Greatest IMO is not the biggest, it the most bang for your buck. Taranto has to rate as one of the most cost effective raids by any combatant in any theatre. Just 18 Swordfish knocking out three battlewagons has to be considered one of the greates achievements of the war, far more effective, plane for plane, than the japanese raids at Pearl more than a year later. Carried out in the middle of the night, no other air force could achieve such economy of force


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## timshatz (Sep 22, 2008)

When I think of greatest, I tend to think of an air battle that changed the course of the war from a strategic perspective. In that realm, there are really very few. Midway and BOB on September 15th (maybe the Mariannas Turkey Shoot) are the only ones that come to mind right away. 

Problem with the idea is air wars are not isolated events (in the main) but Campaigns that go on over months. The rare events that are periodic and decisive are almost all involving the Carrier Battles. They are the only air battles that are episodic (come together, clash, one side loses or wins and the fight is over).

That in mind, I would have to side with Midway. Not my favorite battle, but definitely a turning point that was entirely air derived.


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## ccheese (Sep 22, 2008)

I voted for the Battle of Midway. That was the turning point of the Pacific
war. It should also be noted that I am a fan of the Pacific war, rather than
the war in Europe.

Charles


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## Venganza (Sep 22, 2008)

Thanks for the info, Njaco. I think I know what thread you're talking about. I'll check it out.


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## Freebird (Sep 22, 2008)

Njaco said:


> You're right Erich. I was trying to get an idea of what everyone thought was their favorite (and maybe that was the word I should have used) air battle and why they thought so.




How about the "Pedestal" air battles Aug 11 12 '42? The first time that 4 Allied Aircraft Carriers operated as a single unit IIRC, with Eagle, Victorious, Indomitable Furious operating together to cover the convoy. Check my Siggy!  {Did the US have a 4 carrier operation before this?}

The resupply situation was critical in Malta in the summer of '42, and the Axis sent dozens of attacks against it, both air U-boat. The critical days, Aug 11 12 was when the fleet passed through the narrow straight between Sicily Tunisia


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## renrich (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't believe that the US had a 4 carrier force operating together prior to August, 42. They would have had at Coral Sea if FDR had not sent Enterprise and Hornet off swanning about in the North Pacific, making the Army pilots sea sick. The 3 carriers at Midway operated more AC than 4 UK carriers operated.


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## Njaco (Sep 22, 2008)

All good battles. Forgot about "Vigorous". Had 3 airforces involved in that one. I was going to add the Hope, Faith and Charity defense of Malta in the summer/winter of 1940 along with the Palm Sunday Massacre.

The battle doesn't neccessarily need to be a changing point although if that is a criteria you would use, thats fine.


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## Wildcat (Sep 23, 2008)

renrich said:


> Two other major air battles to consider would be the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, 2-5 March, 1943.



Agree with you on that one mate. I'll also throw in the defence of Port Moresby in early '42 by a single Kittyhawk squadron and the vital role two Australian Kittyhawk squadron's played in helping to defeat the Japanese invasion force at Milne Bay as being important battles worth mentioning in this thread.


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## Kurfürst (Sep 23, 2008)

Kursk?
22nd June 1941?


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## Amsel (Sep 23, 2008)

Kurfürst said:


> Kursk?
> 22nd June 1941?




That was a massive battle. And the Luftwaffe lost the initiative after that.


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## Juha (Sep 23, 2008)

I agree with Kurfürst on Kursk. A truly massive air battle of some 8 days during which LW lost air superiority over the battlefields.

22 June 41 was IMHO more a sneak attack against airfields without a declaration of war than pure air battle even if Soviets lost 300 a/c in air and LW some 55 plus what Romanian AF lost. So it was also a big air battle

Juha


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## lesofprimus (Sep 23, 2008)

Im stuck between 2 choices, Midway and Bodeplatte... Im leaning towards Bodeplatte because it was the final nail in the coffin of the Luftwaffe and offensive operations... 

The loss of leadership that they suffered was unrepairable...


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## Erich (Sep 23, 2008)

you guys are positive about Kursk and the outcome in the air eh ?

you'll note a hesitancy in my air gents

guess I better pick up Bergstroms book on the battle, I note the LW losses are mentioned in it but nothing about Soviet, anyone have this book which is suppose to be hot stuff ??

a side note is that the forces started to snipe at each other by air at night after this point in time, both blasting off with nuisance raids until the Lw placed NJG 100 and 200 on the Eastern Front


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## pbfoot (Sep 23, 2008)

I can't believe no one is voting for Dieppe this is a poll about greatest air battle not most significant 48 Squadrons of Spitties against 200 Luftwaffe fighters 109's and 190's. Now if that is not a scrap I don't know what is and it was less then 10 hours long with most if not all aircraft flying multiple sorties and 150 + losses


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## Juha (Sep 24, 2008)

Hello Erich
I'm not a big fan of Christer B and didn't buy his Kursk book after leafing through it in a bookshop. I based my opinion years of reading on the battle (years ago, I admit). German units noted increasing interference by Soviet AF as the battle progressed.

Juha


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## Venganza (Sep 24, 2008)

Juha, in an earlier post in this thread, I had mentioned Kursk, and you're right about the Soviets interfering more with the Nazis as time went on. One of the things I didn't mention about the air battle was that leading up to the battle and as it went on, the Soviets were changing their tactics from using smaller units to using larger units, with more fighter protection. In addition, they used some IL-2's specifically to suppress the flak, which lessened the aerial losses. The battle of Kursk also helped the Soviets hone the cooperation between the air attack units and the troops they were supporting, which made the air attacks on the German ground forces more and more effective as the war progressed. On the subject of the Barbarossa air assault, that obviously seriously crippled the Red Air Force at the onset of the war. It also had the effect of weeding out a lot of obsolete and obsolescent Soviet warplanes, such as the I-15, I-16, R-5, etc., which were destroyed on the ground in huge numbers. The Soviets were forced to put into large-scale production more advanced aircraft, such as the MiG's, the Lavochkins, IL-2's and so on, to replace their losses. It seems that the law of unintended consequences bit the Nazis on this one.


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## Erich (Sep 24, 2008)

not too sure on that one by the LW JG scores during the battle, but must agree on the ground and in the air there was one set of unbelieveable huge activity.

Bergstroms books are interesting Juha I will leave it at that, still may pick up his volume as no-one has put the effort into covering the air consequences at all except for some small brief note about HS 129 knocking out a Soviet Pz brigade or some such other and the Rudel strike force. well I will say Fw's of JG 51 were performing minute by minute ground attacks both on Soviet infantry as well as Mt and armor and more than just them.

true the Il-2 was coming into it's own as the most respected of all Soviet A/c both by the LW pilots-crews and the men on the ground.

interesting to note the obsolete Soviet A/C garbage that is referred to was used at night and was shot to pieces by the LW NF's both single engine and twin and the bi-plane principle as well


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## Njaco (Sep 24, 2008)

> interesting to note the obsolete Soviet A/C garbage that is referred to was used at night.....



Erich, I seem to remember the LW doing the same with Hs 123s!


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## Erich (Sep 24, 2008)

believe it or not Njaco but there were some Hs 123 ground attack aces on the Ost front, if I remember flown at night by some of the NSGr


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## Njaco (Sep 24, 2008)

Thats what I thought. Amazing for the type of A/C used!


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## Erich (Sep 24, 2008)

they were so stinking slow almost stall speed they could maneuver with ease and drop small bombs with pretty great accuracy. The Soviets only countered with Flak. though I am limited on Soviet NF activity their slowness to react with anything in the air really put them into great difficulties over their own space at night, anything they put up on ops could be intercepted, reason enough why NJG 100 alone scored over 500 kills

for the greatest air battle, well Bodenplatte not sure if I will term this as a great air battle but might be cased as a great LW disaster. have interviewed several LW pilots that flew on 1-1-45, what a joke the originator of this debacle should of been shot. the LW losses were extreme, if you guys ever say the dogfights Asch-Bodenplatte episode when JG 11 attacked that airfield and the 352nd Mustangs chewed up the Lw unit severely.
Jg 4 one got completely lost. German ju 88G-1 and G-6 NF's with radar personell tried to get the s/e to the Allied occupied A/F's. didn't help when 'nearly 12/ of these German twin engiens were intercepted and shot down by Allied fighters and or AA.
that attack was so mismanaged that even the German flak positions shot their own LW A/C down before they could attack Allied airfields ........


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## Njaco (Sep 25, 2008)

I remember somewhere that out of a squadron of LW aircraft, half were shot down by their own flak.


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## drgondog (Sep 25, 2008)

Erich said:


> they were so stinking slow almost stall speed they could maneuver with ease and drop small bombs with pretty great accuracy. The Soviets only countered with Flak. though I am limited on Soviet NF activity their slowness to react with anything in the air really put them into great difficulties over their own space at night, anything they put up on ops could be intercepted, reason enough why NJG 100 alone scored over 500 kills
> 
> for the greatest air battle, well Bodenplatte not sure if I will term this as a great air battle but might be cased as a great LW disaster. have interviewed several LW pilots that flew on 1-1-45, what a joke the originator of this debacle should of been shot. the LW losses were extreme, if you guys ever say the dogfights Asch-Bodenplatte episode when JG 11 attacked that airfield and the 352nd Mustangs chewed up the Lw unit severely.
> Jg 4 one got completely lost. German ju 88G-1 and G-6 NF's with radar personell tried to get the s/e to the Allied occupied A/F's. didn't help when 'nearly 12/ of these German twin engiens were intercepted and shot down by Allied fighters and or AA.
> that attack was so mismanaged that even the German flak positions shot their own LW A/C down before they could attack Allied airfields ........



I think the difficulty for me in this poll is differentiating 'most important' versus 'Greatest'.

In terms of sheer numbers of a/c in small volume of space Bodenplatte has to be number one with any one of several 8th AF raids to be considered next (only because RAF did not have equivalent number of fighters and the raid track was so strung out and relatively few nightfighters to oppose.

Iin terms of importance - to me Midway and BoB was number one - with daily numbers in Bob higher than Midway.

In terms of sheer fury, Dieppe and maybe Kursk and maybe November 2, 1944 where so many USAAF Fighters engaged such a large number of LW - which makes the Marianas Shoot in same ball park for PTO.


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## Freebird (Sep 25, 2008)

drgondog said:


> I think the difficulty for me in this poll is differentiating 'most important' versus 'Greatest'.



Yes indeed, that is the big knock on Jubilee {Dieppe} that it was such a pointless operation, the success or failure of the air battle was not going to have a drastic effect on the ground operation, which was a disaster from the start....


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## renrich (Sep 26, 2008)

The air battle that took place, to the extent that it enabled the evacuation to succeed at Dunkirk, was of vital importance. If around 338,000 troops had not been taken off the beach, the BOB may not have been as important. I don't believe that Hitler was ever really serious about invading England but he may have been so if most of the BEF had not been saved.


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## drgondog (Sep 26, 2008)

renrich said:


> The air battle that took place, to the extent that it enabled the evacuation to succeed at Dunkirk, was of vital importance. If around 338,000 troops had not been taken off the beach, the BOB may not have been as important. I don't believe that Hitler was ever really serious about invading England but he may have been so if most of the BEF had not been saved.



Rich - that is a pretty darn good point.


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## Soren (Sep 26, 2008)

Yeah he had them, and to let them go was one of his biggest mistakes. He was still trying to convince the British to join them at that point though, treating British prisoners like royalties.


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## Erich (Sep 26, 2008)

in any case on the morrow is the anniversary of the Kassel-Göttingen disaster. Much is still unknown as to why the 445th bg made the fatal turning error and the 3 Sturmgruppen let it fly on them.........


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## parsifal (Sep 26, 2008)

There is some truth to Hitler wanting to court the british, but this is not the reason for holding back at dunkirk. Quite the contrary, hitler wanted as many prisoners as possible to act as bargaining chips at the peace table

Other issues dominated the German thinking about the Dunkirk battle.

hitler believed that the ground was unsuitable for tanks, and was worried that his ace - his panzerwaffe would be so weakened in the close quarters fighting around Dunkirk, that there would not be sufficient strength to deal with the french. hitler greatly feared that the french would stage a "miracle on the marne", or that the French were prepring for a massive counterstroke along the front. he simply could not believe that victory had come so easily or cleanly.

Hitler also believed the assurances of Goring that the British evacuation accross the channel could be severely mauled by the Luftwaffe. In this regard the efforts of the RAF, coupled with the over confidence in the anti-shipping capabilities of the LW (nearly all of the units that were deployed were not trained for this work) as well as the superb onshore and offshore logistics and planning don by the RN, largely circumvented the German capability. 

Hitler appears also to have been heavily influeced by the counterattack at Arras, and the bitter defence put up by the british at Boulogne and Calais. Certainly after these events, the british were not "treated like royalty" Soon after the fighting at Boulogne had finished, the german army and SS started to massacre British units enmasse...this is hardly treating them like royalty


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## Soren (Sep 26, 2008)

I sure haven't heard of British prisoners being massacred anytime before Dunkirk, at all! A lot of prisoners were taken, but they were treated well by the Germans, an order straight from the top.


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## drgondog (Sep 26, 2008)

Erich said:


> QUOTE]in any case on the morrow is the anniversary of the Kassel-Göttingen disaster. Much is still unknown as to why the 445th bg made the fatal turning error and the 3 Sturmgruppen let it fly on them........./QUOTE]
> 
> IIRC the 445th was not the lead BG/Wing so they should have been following the lead crews - navigation wise. The normal cause was late to formation Rally point inbound and losing sight of lead wings.
> 
> ...


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## Erich (Sep 26, 2008)

Bill there is some talk of a real strange mission that the 445th may have taken re: behind the turning off on their own even when they were yelling to the lead B-24 you've gone the wrong way

don;t ask me yet for particulars as I am still studying. Sadly it was the most perfect bounce the Sturmfw gruppen ever made. the opening 7-7-44 was a massacre as well including a terrible battle that shot down 35 B-26's in December of 44 quite by accident, and the last one of which I have done considerable study over the eyars is one of hiding beneficial information depending how one looks at it from the public in regards to full B-26 losses from the groups involved - Sturmgruppen IV./JG 3 was in thick cloud as was told from the ground to procede to B-17 bomber formations right in front of them..........none were present so Moritz took his Fw's and dived out of the clouds right onto the rear of the B-26's ............ what a mess for the US, no fighter protection and they got ripped, and really quite by accident. B-26 losses that have been produced knock the amount of Marauders shot down to almost half claimed which was not true

but that story is for another time maybe this December I can go into more specifics


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## drgondog (Sep 26, 2008)

Erich said:


> Bill there is some talk of a real strange mission that the 445th may have taken re: behind the turning off on their own even when they were yelling to the lead B-24 you've gone the wrong way
> 
> *That would have been interesting. Bomb Group CO's that intentionally took their birds out of trail were usually fired (if not KIA during the 'mistake'). It would always put the escorting fighters in a dilemma and split the available fighter force.*
> 
> don;t ask me yet for particulars as I am still studying. Sadly it was the most perfect bounce the Sturmfw gruppen ever made. the opening 7-7-44 was a massacre as well



Here is what I have been able to patch together....for July 7
July 7

F.O.436. Lieutenant Colonel Kinnard led a Ramrod to support B-24s attacking oil and aircraft assembly targets at Halle, near Leipzig. 

Rendezvous was made with 2nd and 95th CW’s at 0808 near Lingen at 0808 and escorted to the IP southwest Leipzig at 0922. .As the formations turned north and then northwest toward Halle they encountered the first gaggle of 100 plus single and twin engine fighters about 20 miles west of Leipzig near Querfurt.. The first wave was described as “6-8 in line abreast, 8 plus flights in trail” coming in north to south at 27,000 feet. A high cover of approximately 35-40 Me 109s were flying at 32,000 feet. 

This force was only part of the estimated 300 German fighters that the Luftwaffe control group put in this area and were primarily focused on the 14th CBW with the 44th, 392 and 492nd BG’s who were tasked to bomb Bernburg. The 2nd AD had split the different B-24 Combat Wings near Brunswick with one force turning south then east then north to hit Halle while the 14th and 96th continued onward to Bernburg.

Kinnard bent his throttle to intercept and his lead flight of the 354FS surged way ahead of the rest of the group. The 358FS maintained close escort for the 389th and 453rd BG’s, while the rest of the 354th and the 357FS broke into the Me 410s and Me 109s. One B-24 from 95th CW, 489th BG, was hit and seen to separate from the formation. It later ditched into North Sea. 

Kinnard quickly shot down two ZG26 Me 410s and then shot down a Me 109 to become the 355th's seventh air ace. His wingman, Lieutenant Huish, collided with trailing debris from one of Kinnard’s exploding Me 410s to become the group's first loss of the day. Huish crashed at Bendeleben, west of Halle and north of Merseburg.

Betounes and Taylor shared a 109 before the rest escaped below. Cross shot down a pair of 410’s and Emil Perry got another before the 357FS caught up

As the 354th and 357FS were engaging, the 20th and 55th FG Lightnings were also engaged in a big fight 20 miles to the northwest near Bernburg. 

The Luftwaffe controllers had found the 14th CW attacking Bernburg almost completely undefended. The Luftwaffe had deployed their first Fw 190 “Sturmbock” attack with Fw 190A-8’s heavily armored and equipped with 30mm cannon. In just over a minute 12 B-24s from the 492nd BG went down in flames between Halberstadt and Bernburg. Eight more 14th CW B-24s in the 44th and 392nd BGs would fall to the Fw 190s before the P-38s arrived.

To further complicate the situation, the 2nd and 95th CW’s after bombing Halle targets found themselves in a collision couse with the southeast bound 14th and 96th CW striking for Bernburg! At the end of the day this was not the best day for 8th AF mission planners. The Bernburg task force was escorted only by the 4th FG and were overwhelmed at the point of attack.

Even though the 55th FG Lightnings were covering the 14th CBW including the 392nd, 492nd and 44th BG, they could not defend against the total of 175 single engine and twin engine fighters the Luftwaffe concentrated on the middle of the 14th CBW. The primary assault was carried out by I. II./ZG26, IV./JG3, II./JG5 and I.&II. /JG300

The downside of the modifications to the Fw 190A-8’s, to be more effective against bombers, was that they were at a disadvantage against the Mustangs and Lightnings in the area. They were just too heavy and sluggish at that altitude to escape. They had to have the same escort from Me 109s at high altitude as the Me 410’s.

Captain Minchew led one section of the 357th FS into the scrap about 20+ miles west of Halle. About 25 Me 410s were leaving the battle area in a shallow dive at about 10,000 feet. Minchew quickly shot down two 410s and shared a third with a 55th FG P-38 which cut in front of him. McNeff got a Me 109 which was closing on Minchew’s tail. Minchew then chased after several more Me 410’s of ZG26 and damaged two more heavily SE Nordhausen before running out of ammo.

Haviland, led the second section of 357FS toward the gaggle of Me 410s heading to the southwest. He shot down two 410s immediately and his flight chased 30-40 more Me 410’s south toward Naumburg, where Fuller and Cotter each shot down another Me 410. The Me 410’s were described as flying an efficient formation but only dived to evade. Lieutenant Fuller was closing on a Me 410 near Naumburg A/D but was hit by flak at 7,000 feet. He bailed out 10 mi SSE Weimar and his chute was seen to open but he did not turn up after the war.

The 55th FG scored 19 destroyed for no losses in and around Bernburg. The 4th and 20th and 361st FG engaged remnants of JG300 plus JG3 and JG51 further north and NW of Halle to score 23 more for the loss of two shot down. 

Col Glenn Duncan, outstanding leader of 353rd FG was shot down by flak over Holland and fought three months with Dutch Underground before getting back to Allied lines. 

Claiborne Kinnard received the 355th FG’s third Distinguished Service Cross for his leadership and courage in this day's action.

Final score 14.5-0-4 for two losses


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## Erich (Sep 26, 2008)

thanks for that report Bill, I have an extensive one for the LW of course, interesting to note the 15th AF came into lay and was also assaulted by Jg 3 SturmFw's. An important thing to note now here, subtle but still important. although most of JG 3 Sturms had the heavy armor only about 1/2 had the outboard 3cm cannon in place. JG 300 did not have canopy glass armor at all and never really did maybe 1/10th of the Sturms had it installed due to heavy ice problems. the case is almost the same the outboard 3cm was not fully accepted into the Sturm ranks till the end of July 44. what is apparent is the technique of using the wedge formation by both SturmFw gruppen and then as drawing closer lining up abreast as the Bomber crews witnessed before the final assault at extremely close ranges.
and yes even from the outset of the "new" Sturm wedge technique the heavier A/c needed high altitude protection from the 109's in this case from I./JG 300 from Gerhard Stamp CO.

back to 27 Set. 44 and the 445th bg. this is one of the pre-questions I have asked many times, if and a big if the 445th was sent out on it's own why did it not have some sort of US Mustang cover, even if it was just one fighter group ?


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## drgondog (Sep 26, 2008)

Erich said:


> thanks for that report Bill, I have an extensive one for the LW of course, interesting to note the 15th AF came into lay and was also assaulted by Jg 3 SturmFw's.
> 
> *It's an extract from the new ABD - just like the Nove 26 mission and the April 24 deal*
> 
> ...



Every account I have read simply talks about the 445th straying off course. The primary mission for the 2BD was Kassel. A second strike of 35 bombers went to Gottingen and had no losses. The 361st was up forward of the 445th and the 4th, then 355th behind the 445th with the mainstream slightly further north. The 361st came back and had a big day, the 4th moved up and the 355th covered for the 4th FG.

Erich - I have never seen evidence of a 'secret mission' nor does such make a lot of sense - not in daylight.

One FG would have been heavy cover indeed. Usually one Fighter Group at that stage of the war would have covered at least one and possibly part of two Combat wings. The controllers could always find a hole - the question was whether they could vector the LW into that hole with running afoul of the escorts. 

At this time there were still only 11 long range escort Groups in the ETO to cover 30-35 Heavy Bomb Groups over 100 mile stream. One missed R/V of bomber created a big hole - or one CW off course and out of sight when a Fighter group made R/V meant real trouble.

Didn't happen often but when successful the results were usually devastating to one CW of bombers. April 29, May 12, July 7, Sept 27, Nov 2 and 26 come to mind


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## Njaco (Sep 26, 2008)

Thanks, Erich and Bill. Thats what I was looking for - individual battles in terms of one force against another. Not neccessarily a campaign but part of a campaign. Those missions you describe are what I was after. Didn't know about them in depth before. Thanks!


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## Erich (Sep 26, 2008)

its reluctance Bill that I even mention the what if as even possible and it was and is about Göttingen. It still does not seem plausible to me except for just a disaster as a turn and LW ground control getting the heavy SturmFw units and high cover of 109's into position. As one IV.Sturm/JG 3 ace mentioned after war, he could not believe that NO US Mustang escort was seen, as he and his gruppe took first shots and shot down 18 B-24's in their first pass tried to get into position for a second rear pass as Mustangs came onto them and his gruppen banked over and got the hell out of that mess.......

September 28th is also another terrible day like Sept. 11 and 12th and October 6th. I mention these unknown dates as they were in smallness LW victories with the suddeness of their attacks, thank GOD for Allied escort to disperse them.

guess I could also go off on a tangent and talk about some rude missions in July/August 44 as well ~


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## parsifal (Sep 26, 2008)

Soren said:


> I sure haven't heard of British prisoners being massacred anytime before Dunkirk, at all! A lot of prisoners were taken, but they were treated well by the Germans, an order straight from the top.




I havent heard of any massacres before Dunkirk either, although I have not researched the fates of captured british prisoners in Norway for example.

However the massacres of british prisoners DURING the battle was underway from the 26th. Those that I know about that were perpetrated between 25th May and 1st June include Las paradis, Wormhoudt, Ledringham, Mercier Farm, and Bollengier Farm. I dont know the final casualty figures, but it is more than 500. 

None of the massacres were officially sanctioned, but there was some support for them nevertheles, as it was sen as a legitimate means of breaking the British will to resist at Dunkirk. Never mind that they were totally barbaric and totally illegal, didnt seem to bother the germans at all.


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## Erich (Sep 26, 2008)

sorry P but you're getting OT


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## Soren (Sep 26, 2008)

Were they prisoners Parsifal or were they just slaughtered in combat ?

I've tried to research the matter but I can find absolutely nothing about any shooting of British prisoners at or around Dunkirk.


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## Soren (Sep 26, 2008)

Erich said:


> sorry P but you're getting OT



Sorry


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## Erich (Sep 26, 2008)

why do we always branch off into the sphere guys and not stay with the topic ?


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## Soren (Sep 26, 2008)

It's simple Erich: People pick out places where they disagree and start discussing them. It's hard to avoid.

But me and Parsifal will take this to another thread.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 26, 2008)

Erich said:


> why do we always branch off into the sphere guys and not stay with the topic ?



It is simple Erich. People always get into the same old arguement.

"Germans never ever commited sanctioned war crimes. It is all lies!"

"Dude 294.3355 allied troops were shot against a wall in retaliation to a prisoner escaping on this XX-XXX-XXXX date..."

It never fails to happen. It is very reduntent and stupid...


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## Erich (Sep 26, 2008)

well how about we make a commitment to sty on topic shall we ?



why am I thinking this will be impossible .............


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## drgondog (Sep 27, 2008)

Erich said:


> its reluctance Bill that I even mention the what if as even possible and it was and is about Göttingen. It still does not seem plausible to me except for just a disaster as a turn and LW ground control getting the heavy SturmFw units and high cover of 109's into position. As one IV.Sturm/JG 3 ace mentioned after war, he could not believe that NO US Mustang escort was seen, as he and his gruppe took first shots and shot down 18 B-24's in their first pass tried to get into position for a second rear pass as Mustangs came onto them and his gruppen banked over and got the hell out of that mess.......
> 
> September 28th is also another terrible day like Sept. 11 and 12th and October 6th. I mention these unknown dates as they were in smallness LW victories with the suddeness of their attacks, thank GOD for Allied escort to disperse them.
> 
> guess I could also go off on a tangent and talk about some rude missions in July/August 44 as well ~



E- the Gottingen strike force didn't lose any of the 35 dispatched. Is your thought that the 445th was supposed to go there instead of Kassel and was trying to join them? - entirely possible but that would have been a huge navigation screw up.

the 28th wasn't a great day for 8th either, but 23 losses to fighters for two AD's is a pretty far stretch compared to the day before on one bomb group.

Which ones did you have in mind for more than 10 losses to German Fighters other than August 15 (14 due to GF)? The 4th FG got thumped pretty good on the 18th but other than those two I only see July 7 and August 15 for +10 days to LW Fighters.


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## claidemore (Oct 1, 2008)

I gotta go with Kursk. 

Battle was anywhere from 10 days to a month and a half, (German view, Operation Citadel 10 days, Russian view, battle lasted till Charkow/Kharkov fell). 
At least 2500 Soviet planes, 3000+ if you count units kept in reserve or on less active fronts
A little over 2000 German planes. 
Each side flying as many as 4500 sorties in a day. 

Kursk is heralded as a tank vs tank battle, but some of the most important sectors were won by air vs tank. It was the proving ground for the Soviet tactical air/ground cooperation concept, which eventually took them all the way to Berlin.

BoB was important too, but Kursk surpasses it (and probably all others) in scale. 

In my opinion Kursk was the greatest air battle of WWII, for numbers of aircraft involved, number of sorties flown, and importance as the pivotal battle on the Eastern Front.


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## Amsel (Oct 1, 2008)

claidemore said:


> I gotta go with Kursk.
> 
> Battle was anywhere from 10 days to a month and a half, (German view, Operation Citadel 10 days, Russian view, battle lasted till Charkow/Kharkov fell).
> At least 2500 Soviet planes, 3000+ if you count units kept in reserve or on less active fronts
> ...



I agree. The ostfront is not as well known among many N. Americans for obvious reasons. But it was where WWII was decided.


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## Erich (Oct 2, 2008)

Bill:

yes the 445th bg may have been ordered towards Göttingen, but I better leave that thought alone,

the September 11 and 12th raids were brutal

October 6, and 7th 

November 2nd

November 26th everyone lost, and the 27th was ugly as well

January 14, 1945


of course I could go back and pull files for July/August of 44 as they were also pretty sad


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## drgondog (Oct 2, 2008)

Erich said:


> Bill:
> 
> yes the 445th bg may have been ordered towards Göttingen, but I better leave that thought alone,
> 
> ...



In terms of the battle for air supremacy and relative damage by LW March 6 and April 29, 1944 probably place at the top of combined fighter/fighter and fighter/bomber clashes between emerging 8th AF target escorts and LW deep in Germany. Then April 24 and May 12.

All the ones after that were bloody for one or two groups, but relatively low percent of total force


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## Erich (Oct 2, 2008)

how about January 11, 1944 with 60 bombers shot down

May 28 and 29th, 1944 with over 30 bombers lost each day

right-O Bill on the earlier dates I posted a select 1-3 Bomb Groups picked out and ripped to pieces


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## drgondog (Oct 2, 2008)

Erich said:


> how about January 11, 1944 with 60 bombers shot down
> 
> May 28 and 29th, 1944 with over 30 bombers lost each day
> 
> right-O Bill on the earlier dates I posted a select 1-3 Bomb Groups picked out and ripped to pieces



My measuring stick was any day in which 8th AF BC lost more than 5% or a division lost more than 10% and Jan 11 fits my own designation of a really bad day - I forgot that 60FTR even though about 10 were due to ops issues rather than Luftwaffe. About 180+ were damaged from light to severe. The 8th lost about 13% of the attacking force - IIRC this was worst % for rest of war...


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## Erich (Oct 2, 2008)

I know there is a book in print possibly by Hikkoki pubs over the Jan. 11 44 mission.

have been in touch since 1999 with a Dutch researcher who has found many B-17 parts and of course studied the event as much fell over his homeland, we ascertained that several Bf 110G-2's with Br 21cm rocket launchers hit the lead B-17's of the lead bombers thus upsetting the whole route and time-table of the US attack.

The day time ZG twin engines claimed 18 B-17's and 3 NJG's claimed some 12 B-17's during this day engagement when flying the day op. LW claims were for 91 bombers on the date.


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## drgondog (Oct 2, 2008)

Erich said:


> I know there is a book in print possibly by Hikkoki pubs over the Jan. 11 44 mission.
> 
> have been in touch since 1999 with a Dutch researcher who has found many B-17 parts and of course studied the event as much fell over his homeland, we ascertained that several Bf 110G-2's with Br 21cm rocket launchers hit the lead B-17's of the lead bombers thus upsetting the whole route and time-table of the US attack.
> 
> The day time ZG twin engines claimed 18 B-17's and 3 NJG's claimed some 12 B-17's during this day engagement when flying the day op. LW claims were for 91 bombers on the date.



This is one area of mystery for me. The LW had total control of all possible crash sites except North Sea and Channel and yet the overclaims on bombers in large battles was usually 50-70%. (Of course 8th AF BC overclaims were probably in the 95% range..)

I just went through MECC again for Jan 11. 

45 were cited as German Fighters, 3 to MAC with a GAF fighter, 7 due to flak , two to mechanical failure and three to ditchings in which crews were rescued... the latter can be presumed to battle damage - either flak or fighters


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## Njaco (Oct 2, 2008)

Erich and Bill, from those dates you posted which would be the one that you would chose as the most intense, action-packed, incredible from the lot of them? I know Erich helped me with January 11 when I first signed on and that was pretty brutal. I want to get a handle on what specific action you would say interests you the most or that you admire the most from both sides perspective as regarding heorism, intensity, skill or anything that stands out for you.


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## drgondog (Oct 2, 2008)

Njaco said:


> Erich and Bill, from those dates you posted which would be the one that you would chose as the most intense, action-packed, incredible from the lot of them? I know Erich helped me with January 11 when I first signed on and that was pretty brutal. I want to get a handle on what specific action you would say interests you the most or that you admire the most from both sides perspective as regarding heorism, intensity, skill or anything that stands out for you.



In terms of sheer numbers the Nov 2, 1944 engagements or Nov 26 would be high on the list of ETO in which very large numbers of attacking LW fighters were in same airspace with one, then two then three 8th AF Fighter groups in the same battle.

In terms of US fighters outnumberered but scrambling around in bad weather and clouds against a much larger LW force, and shooting down 40+, but losing 27 B-17s to flak, fighters and scrambling to Switzerland, I would go with the April 24, 1944 battle around Munich. That was one helluva fight and the B-17s did heavy damage to Do 335 plant at Oberpfaffenhofen west of Munich. What I really liked is the disciplne shown by Dregne (357Gp leader) and Dix (355Gp leader) in this fight. They were dribbling sections at a time rather than committing entire squadrons in trying to stave off determined attacks by more than 200+ s/e plus another 20+ t/e fighters concentrated in that area around Munich.

The day could have been worse than Berlin or Schweinfurt if the discipline was broken down.

The problem I have with Jan 11 is that the escort fighter strength for 8th FC was so small the the t/e NJG were able to score with near impunity w/o being molested and they took a heavy toll. By the time 4/24 took place few Me 110/210/410 could survive... and the LW had a lot of experienced fighter pilots and leaders intact. March 6, Big B, was another hellacious battle as the Mustang strength was growing but LW still very strong that deep.

After April 29, the LW was still able to hammer one Bomb Wing or Bomb Group but never able to really punish 8th BC again with 5+% losses


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## Erich (Oct 2, 2008)

I can't seem to come up with a specific action at the moment, if I dig out the stuff am sure re-reading through US bomber group missions reports will surely click something in me. Nov 26 has a special meaning since I lost cousin KIA on it and of course have quite a bit of data.

let me look for each of what I posted up


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## drgondog (Oct 2, 2008)

Erich said:


> I can't seem to come up with a specific action at the moment, if I dig out the stuff am sure re-reading through US bomber group missions reports will surely click something in me. Nov 26 has a special meaning since I lost cousin KIA on it and of course have quite a bit of data.
> 
> let me look for each of what I posted up



Jan 14, 1945 over Berlin was another great single unit (357FG) battle


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## Erich (Oct 2, 2008)

here is some simple info I put on a draft sheet many years ago through studies of some of the Fall 1944 missions of the USAF vs the LW.

Sept. 11, 1944

92nd lost 8-11 due to Sturm attacks
100th lost 11 to JG 4 Sturm attacks and from III./JG 4 109's.

Sept. 12, 1944

306th loses 8 from Sturm attacks from IV.Sturm/JG 3
351st loses 6 from II.Sturm/JG 300 and 109s from JG 53 
493rd loses 9 plus from JG 4 Sturms and III./JG 4

September 28

303rd loses 11 from Sturm attacks from IV.Sturm/JG 3
379th loses 2
384th loses 2
457th loses 7

October 6

94th loses 4 to Fw 190A's
385th loses 10 to Fw 190A's for both all from Sturm attacks

October 7

94th loses 8 to Sturm attacks

November 2nd

91st loses 13 to Sturm attacks
457th loses 9 plus to Sturm attacks

November 21st

398th loses 12-15 bombers

November 26th

445th loses 5 to JG 301, Sturm attacks in Schwarm size
491st loses 16 to JG 301

December 24th

487th loses 9 to Sturm attacks from IV.Sturm/JG 3

units given are certain through correspondance with surviving LW pilots and US bomber crewmen plus interviews and text from bomb group association reps.

on 14th of January the US 357th fg made a name for themselves, and JG 300 felt the sting as did JG 301

9 bombers lost from the 390th bg.


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## Bluehawk (Oct 3, 2008)

Battle of Britain, no doubt whatsoever... as to numbers and intensity involved, and as to consequences of victory.


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## drgondog (Oct 3, 2008)

Bluehawk said:


> Battle of Britain, no doubt whatsoever... as to numbers and intensity involved, and as to consequences of victory.



BoB got my vote as most important with Midway second but I wouldn't remotely consider either one for 'intensity'.. 

Dunkirk and Dieppe and Marianas and Bodenplatte and November 2/26 and the battle over Berlin on Jan 14, 1945 all rank high in terms of sheer 'intensity' of numbers, clashes and aircraft falling out of the sky in a short period of time.


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## Erich (Oct 3, 2008)

I think the BoB is more like a struggle since it was over many days and not really a singular event, you may disagree and that is fine but in my brain a one day aerial engagement constitutes a battle in the air

2 centos


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## drgondog (Oct 3, 2008)

Erich said:


> I think the BoB is more like a struggle since it was over many days and not really a singular event, you may disagree and that is fine but in my brain a one day aerial engagement constitutes a battle in the air
> 
> 2 centos



I totally agree - even midway and marianas were days whereas the rest of the ones we are talking about were compressed into minutes...


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## Njaco (Oct 3, 2008)

> I think the BoB is more like a struggle since it was over many days and not really a singular event, you may disagree and that is fine but in my brain a one day aerial engagement constitutes a battle in the air



Bingo! Thats what I was looking for! Not to discredit Kursk and the others but that says what I was looking for.

Thanks Erich!


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## pbfoot (Oct 3, 2008)

Still would like some more votes for Dieppe 160 aircraft lost in 7hrs is not chump change and it was mostly fighters . Of note thats where the P51 and Typhoon had their first kills


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## Glider (Oct 4, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> Still would like some more votes for Dieppe 160 aircraft lost in 7hrs is not chump change and it was mostly fighters . Of note thats where the P51 and Typhoon had their first kills



It’s interesting that the debate is always on the fighters. 
The most important question in any battle, land, sea or air is who achieved their objective.

Did the German fighters effectively escort the bombers so they could attack the allied forces with some success, I don't believe so. 
Did the Luftwaffe stop the landing taking place, no.
Did the Luftwaffe have any serious impact or influence on the land battle, no.
Did the Luftwaffe sink or even seriously damage any large landing craft or escorting naval vessel, before, during or after the landing, no. 
Did the RAF have any impact on the landing, and cover the withdrawal yes.

Did the Luftwaffe shoot down more RAF fighters than they lost, clearly the answer is yes, but which side achieved their objective?

It isn't as straight forward an assumption as people may believe.


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## Njaco (Oct 4, 2008)

Thats true Glider but wouldn't that be for a "Most Successful battle" thread? I just wanted to hear what battle got people's juices flowing.

And Pb, you're right and I'm so sorry that I didn't include it until after you voted. And I should have made this public. First poll. duh!!


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## Glider (Oct 5, 2008)

Your right Njaco, my apology


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Oct 5, 2008)

Grea thread, I still can't decide what battle to vote for. Boddenplatte is good, but there were a lot of horrendous bomber missions as well. Black Thursday the worst for the Allies, and "Big Week" a bad one for the Germans, where B-17's, B-24's and P-51's and other fighters fought the Germans over the Third Reich, and destroyed 17 percent of their best pilots. 

Losses were pretty high for the Allies, but after that week German air power was diminished and they never regained air superiority on the Western Front again.


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## Njaco (Oct 5, 2008)

I'm gonna see if I can post some particulars about each battle andgive an idea of each.

Glider, its all good!


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## Njaco (Oct 5, 2008)

Guess I'll start with the day I thought was pretty rough.

"The Hardest Day"

Luftwaffe plans called for Do 17s, Ju 88s and He 111s to attack the airfields at Kenley and Biggin Hill for the first attack of the day. While most of the bombers were to attack at about 12,000 feet, a staffel of Do 17s were to fly in at tree-top level and attack a few minures after the intial raid. The 2d raid of the day was Ju 87s against the airfields at Ford, Gosport and Thorney Island along with the radar site at Poling. The last attack of the day was against the airfields at Hornchurch and North Weald. All raids to be escorted with almost all the fighters from Luftflotte 2 and 3.
....The attack against Kenley was in 3 phases: 12 Ju 88s of II./KG 76 escorted by 20 Bf 109s from JG 51 were to attack followed 5 minutes later by 27 Do 17s from I./KG 76 and III./KG 76 escorted by 25 Bf 110s from ZG 26. Five minutes after these attacks, 9 D0 17s from 9./KG 76 were to run in unescorted at very low altitude and finish off the airfield. Biggin Hill was to be attacked by 60 He 111s of KG 1 at the same time as Kenley. The whole attack was to be preceeded by a free hunt by 60 Bf 109s from JG 3 and III./JG 26.
....Things went badly from the start. While the first formation of bombers took off, bad weather forced a delay. By the time the 9 Do 17s of 9./KG 76 took off, instead of being the follow up formation they became the lead formation. They crossed the coast and spread out at about 500 feet and bore into the airfield. 12 Hurricanes from RAF No. 111 Sqdrn bounced them and then pulled away when the flak defenses opened up. one Hurricane was lost. As the Dorniers crossed the airfield, a new British innovation was used, paachute and cable launchers. Shot into the sky, cables were extended from the ground and held aloft by parachutes, the hope being that an airplane would snag the cable. This new invention caught one bomber and it crashed. Once clear of the airfield, the formation was bounced again by Hurricanes from No. 111 Sqdrn who came around the airfield to attack. When over, only 3 bombers were able to make a whells down landing and one by the navigator after the pilot was killed.
....The high altitude bombers against Kenely were also having problems. Hurricanes from RAF No. 615 Sqdrn went after the bombers as RAF No. 32 Sqdrn took on the escorts followed by RAF No. 64 Sqdrn. 4 Ju 88s and 6 Do 17s were lost while Kenley suffered severe damage. The attack on Biggin Hill was intercepted by only one squadron of Spitfires who tangled with the Bf 109s of JG 54, leaving the bombers unmolested.
....After this first raid, the second was mounted. In the largest attack by Stukas, 109 Ju 87s from StG 3 and StG 77 escorted by 150 Bf 109s went after the coastal airfields and radar station. Intercepted by Spitfires and Hurricanes as they pulled out of their dives, the Stukas were hit hard. 10 were destroyed and 5 seriuosly damaged out of 28 from I./StG 77 alone. The raid hardly affected the airfields and radar.
..... For the day the Luftwaffe lost 71 aircraft while the British lost 27 fighters.


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## kool kitty89 (Oct 6, 2008)

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but I think September 7, 1940 of the BoB is pretty significant, and intense as well with the massive numbers involved. 

September 15 may have effectively marked the British air victory for the battle, but the 7th was the beginning of the Battle over London. (the date was also important iirc because the British had expected the begining of a German invasion) The shock in the change of tactics and the belated realization of the tru target made it pretty Chaotic for the RAF to accomplish anything.

I'm not sure I'd choose it though, given some of the others, but as for a single day in the BoB I think it could be the most confusing. (though it could be argued that the whole period of fighting of the 7th to the 15th could be the duration of that battle -being distinct from the parts of the BoB-)


Then again, maybe the 7th really didn't allow for much action for the RAF so the intensity wouldn't be the same as with the other 2 selected days. (or at least I haven't read much about specific actions of the RAF on the 7th other than "there was very little they could do")


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## Njaco (Oct 6, 2008)

I was split between the 7th and 15th. The 7th was rough.


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## pbfoot (Oct 6, 2008)

Dieppe 
At 04.30 the first two wings of the air umbrella, those of Kenley and Northolt, took off. Fifteen minutes later, eight other squadrons were airborne. At 04.50 Sqn.-Ldr. du Vivier led his twelve 43 Squadron Hurricanes in a line abreast low-level cannon strike on the beach defences -- opening the main Dieppe assault. The gunners of the 13th Flak Division, however, caused severe damage to, or loss ot, seven of 43's aircraft. At 05.12 the four bombarding destroyers opened fire on the buildings lining the promenade. While 226 Squadron's Bostons laid smoke-screens, four squadrons of Hurricane 11Cs and 11Bs hedgehopped over the beach, spraying cannon fire and dropping 250-lb. bombs on the German defensive positions with a precision that aroused the admiration of the enemy commander. However, though the cannon fire did keep the defenders' heads down, the few bombs dropped had hardly any effect at all -- and when they were gone the Germans merely re-commenced fire. Heavy and accurate AA fire was encountered, but despite a flak explosion which shattered his jaw, Flt.-Lt. J. F. Scott led his Blenheims on to lay smoke on the East Headland. By 05.15 the air attack was in full swing with Spitfires and 88 Squadron Bostons attacking Batteries 7/302 (behind the West Headland), B/302, and those inland. Then the beach supporting fire and bombing ceased just before the first landing craft touched land at 05.23. The German defences, virtually intact, immediately chopped the main assault force to pieces. On the beaches all control of the situation was lost and with but a few exceptions, the assault was pinned down. However, with the beaches covered in smoke screens and due to a monumental communications break-down, the Force Commanders were to be quite unaware of the real situation for the next three hours, and were to act accordingly till then.

Mist over Jagdgeschwader 26's airfields had precluded immediate action, but JG 2 was clear and the first Luftwaffe sortie, a reconnaisanee to the North West of Dieppe, was off at 05.30. At first only a few German fighters were up, though 71 Squadron shot one of them down as one of the first kills of the day. Between 05.45 and 05.55, the Hornchurch and Biggin Hill Wings became airborne, while elements of their chief adversary, JG 26, joined the fray shortly after 06.00. Before the Hornchurch Wing could intervene, Fw 190s shot down three 174 Squadron Hurricanes (including the CO) which were covering Bostons. The Biggin Wing had a brush with Focke-Wulfs and Lt. Junkin of the 307th Fighter Squadron, 31st Fighter Group, scored the first USAAF kill in the European theatre of operations. At 06.10 the North Weald (Norwegian) Wing began to taxi out. Over Dieppe, Capt. Bjorn Raeder became separated and fought a single-handed action against eight Fw 190s until he disengaged over the Channel and crash-landed in England. Meamvhile, Bostons were bombing the inland Batteries, A/302 and 256. Just behind the latter attack, at Arques-la-Bataille, six Hurricanes went in to attack the 110th Divisional HQ supposedly there. It was not, and four Hurricanes were lost, crashing into the town, killing their pilots and eight civilians. Further main beach landings at 07.05 were only covered by a Hurricane cannon strike on the East Headland, while the smoke-laying aircraft were back at base -- the landing was non-scheduled and the air plan too rigid to allow for adequate immediate cover.

By 07.00 there were only about thirty German fighters in the air and Leigh-Mallory was disappointed. Oblt. Sepp Wurmheller of JG 2, despite a broken leg in plaster, was in action, though he was soon forced to crash on a beach. Later that day, he shot down seven Spitfires and a Blenheim. While Hurricanes searched with MGBs for F-boats in the Channel, 10 (Jabo) JG 26's Fw 190A-4/U8s attacked isolated British ships, though with less success than they claimed. Elements of (F)122 and/or (F)123 also scouted the Channel, looking for another possible British attack force, while the Tactical Reconnaissance Mustangs flew deep into France looking for German reinforcements. Approximately every twenty minutes sections of Hurricanes arrived for ground support patrols over Dieppe, with Bostons at longer intervals. Around 08.30 the first German bomber made its appearance - there now being some fifty Luftwaffe aircraft up.

About 09.00 the Force Commanders became aware of the true situation on the beaches and the withdrawal order, Vanquish, was given for 10.30. However, Air Commodore Cole was forced to point out that the RAF's time table only allowed for a maximum effort to cover Vanquish at 11.00. His point made and accepted, Cole informed Uxbridge at 10.04 that smoke screens would be required over the main beaches for the evacuation from 11.00 for half an hour at least. At 10.10 the final softening up of the indestructible headlands began, and was kept up for 30 minutes by twenty-four Bostons and twenty-two Hurri-bombers: an assault that was too soon and too short.

By 10.00 the German bombers had arrived in force and the Luftwaffe had committed over a hundred aircraft to battle over Dieppe at any one time -- meeting Fighter Command's challenge. With the job of air cover foremost, the RAF was soon paying a high price for maintaining its superlative and near-impregnable air umbrella over the main assault force. It was losing aircraft because its Spitfire VBs (not to mention tactics) were outclassed by the Fw l9OAs and Bf l09Fs, but they were stopping the German bombers from getting at the ships and the beaches. Thus for all its victories, the Luftwaffe was losing the air battle of Dieppe.

At 10.30 twenty-two out of a force of twenty-four B-17E Boeings of the 97th Bomb Group, 8th USAAF, carried out accurate though indecisive bombing of Abbeville-Drucat airfield as a diversion. Ever since 10.00, Luftwaffe fighter reserves between Flushing and Beaumont le Roger had been put on the alert, while bomber forces from Holland to Beauvais were steadily being committed to battle. The Typhoon Wing flew a diversionary feint to Ostend, then over Le Treport they bounced some Fw l90s, damaging three. But two Typhoons failed to pull out of their dives when their tails snapped off. In the end, some nine Spitfire squadrons were sent into the area to stop the bombers reaching Dieppe. The North Weald Wing on their second sortie shot down eight of nine unescorted Do 217Es. Returning over the Channel, a frantic "Look out 190 approaching 3 o'clock!" caused Lt. Kristensen, Yellow One, to whip round and fire a short, effective burst. The 190 burst into flames and dived inverted into the Channel -- it was only then that they realised that it was a Typhoon ... R7815 of 266 Squadron, the pilot being killed.

Back at Dieppe, "Vanquish" was going badly. As 226 Squadron's Bostons laid dense smoke screens on the headlands and along the waterfront at 11.00 to cover the withdrawal, Luftwaffe bomber reinforcements arrived in strength and pressed home their bombardment of the beaches and together with the German gunners turned the evacuation into a worse massacre than Dunkirk. At 11.15 43 Squadron's Hurricanes attacked the East Headland, but five minutes later a call came from the beach for more smoke and air support. Again at 11.35 and 11.38, calls came in to the effect that the beaches were under tremendous fire and evacuation was impossible under such conditions. Uxbridge was inundated with calls for more bombing. Hurri-bombers were on the way, but would only arrive at noon.

At Pourville the remnants of the attack on the West Headland were being evacuated under increasing attack from both shore and air. Fw 1 90s strafed while Ju 88s were subsequently reported as "flame thrower aircraft" (early napalm?). The RAF, however, were fully engaged over Dieppe, and could not give cover here.

At last the Hurricane 11Bs arrived over Dieppe at 12.00, and their attacks kept some German gunners' heads down while Spitfires kept at bay the dogged attempts of Ju 88s, Do 217s and a few He 111s to intervene. At 12.43 three Bostons laid a last smoke screen in the face of heavy AA fire from the Royal Navy. Just after 13.00, however, the survivors on the beaches were forced to surrender -- though, as late as 13.45, RAF attacks were belatedly still going in on the Headlands and beaches, killing several Canadians who were now POWs.

Heading for England now were some 200 vessels in close convoy with the inevitable stragglers behind. With a renewed effort, the Luftwaffe tried to inflict more casualties. For the RAF fighter pilots flying their third, fourth or even fifth sorties of the day, this was the last challenge. Tn addition to the general air cover provided, eighty-six additional patrols were put up to intercept specific attacks. Only one incident was to mar what was otherwise a near-perfect essay into fighter cover. At the tail end of the convoy a free-for-all was developing over the last ships getting into station. At 13.08 a section of three Do 217s, though harried unmercifully by Spitfires, pressed home their attack. Just after 13.14, one bomb exploded under the destroyer HMS Berkeley, breaking her back. Her crew were evacuated and she was sunk by a fellow destroyer. By 15.45, the Luftwaffe, realising the futility of further mass attacks, sent single bombers to harass the convoy, using the gathering overcast for protection. But by 20.00 the convoy was nearly home and the RAF had the sky to itself. During the day the Luftwaffe had made scattered raids on South East England. They came again that night: a Do 217 falling to Wing-Cdr. Pleasance's Beaufighter of 25 Squadron. For several nights afterwards, Ju 88s intensified their shipping reconnaisance over the Channel, some falling foul of 29 Squadron.


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## claidemore (Oct 7, 2008)

Great essay pb!


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## KrazyKraut (Oct 7, 2008)

Yeah the LW was clearly losing that one  Revisionism at its best.


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## pbfoot (Oct 7, 2008)

claidemore said:


> Great essay pb!



I can't write that well I scooped it from this site and its only the meat of the essay included is the OOB 
AIR UMBRELLA - DIEPPE - South African Military History Society - Journal


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## Glider (Oct 7, 2008)

I was wrong, the Germans did get one escort destroyer, but a good write up, many thanks. You have to feel for the Hurricanes, at least a Spit V had a fighting chance.


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## Njaco (Oct 7, 2008)

Great stuff, PB!!!!

*9 February 1945 - Black Friday*

Black Friday

Coastal Command's Strike wings performed many memorable shipping strikes during the last war, many of which are classic examples of this kind of warfare. These attacks on the vital supply lines of the German forces was deeply felt within the German Surpreme headquaters, especially after the invation of continental Europe had begun. But as can be expected, the scarce German naval resources was heavily defended, both by anti-aircraft guns and the aggresive fighters of the Luftwaffe. These effective defences took a heavy toll of the attackers, and the bravery of the young men in their heavily armed flying machines can easily be understood. This is the story of one of the blackest day in the Strike wings' history, the appropriately named "Black Friday", 9. February 1945.
....The last two years of the war saw the Strike Wings flying almost daily against targets on Norway's long western coast. The German army in Norway numbered almost 300 000, and these men and their war machninery had to be supplied. Vessels carrying supplies and soldiers were thus frequently encountered, targest were plentiful. And not only freighters and transports used this route, the Kriegsmarine's few remaining major warships were also encountered on this weatherbeaten coastline, providing escort for the convois or just seeking refuge from the ever-increasing allied raids on German naval bases in Germany. These vessels were considered prime targets.
.....Two Beaufighters from 489 Sqdn. piloted by F/Sgt. Priest and W/O Brightwell had been on an Recce-mission since 08.50. At 10.30 they reached the Norwegian coastline south of Utvær Lighthouse and quickly sighted their first vessel of the day; "similar to R/boat" to quote the original report. More was to come. At the entrance to Vevringefjord they sighted a Narvik destroyer with heavy escort; this was the Z-33. After encountering heavy Flak from the destroyer, the two Beaufighters continued their patrol in and out of the numerous fjords. No less than 5 transports were seen in Nord-Gulen , the largest between 4000-5000 tons. After almost an hour of recce they set course for base at 11.20 and reached their home base at Dallachy on 13.24.
....During the subsequent interrogation the pilots reported that the destroyer in Fordefjord and the transports could not be attacked by more than 2-3 aircraft at the same time. The nearby Strike Wing base at Banff was alerted as was Peterhead, home of 65. Sqdn flying Mustang Mk IIIs . They would act as escort. A large strike Force was assembled and consisted of the following forces;
(RAF) Squadron 9 Beaufighters TFX Cannon and MGs only 404.
(RCAF) Squadron 11 Beaufighjters TFX Cannon/MGs and rockets 455.
(RAAF) Squadron 11 Beaufighters TFX Cannon/MGs and rockets 65.
(RAF) Squadron 12 Mustang MK IIIs MGs 279.
(RAF) Squadron 2 Warwick MK Is
....At this time in the war, Coastal Command had a great deal of experience with shipping strikes, having perfected them during three intence years of operations. And enemy fighters were still to be reckoned with. On 10. January 1945 the Luftwaffe had only about 45 single-engined fighters in Norway south of Trondheim, barely more than the total number of planes in the strike force! But they were flying high-performance Focke-Wulfs or Messerschmitts and most of the pilots were battle-hardened veterans from the nothern front, having fought the Russians for over three years. More specifically, 9.and 12. Staffel of the famous "Eismeergeschwader" JG 5, was stationed at Herdla just outside Bergen. As the only Staffels in Norway at this time, they flew both late and early variants of the Fw 190. And at Gossen near Molde 10. and 11. Staffel had their Bf 109G-6s and G-14s ready. Planes from both bases could reach Fordefjord and effect an interception if alerted in time. There was no way a heavily loaded Beaufighter could stand a chance against those small and nimble German fighters.
....Shortly after take-off one of the Mustangs had to return to Peterhead because of engine-trouble. Another joined in as an escort, just in case of a forced bail-out. Now they had only 10 escort fighters, but hopefully that would suffice. At 15.40 the formation reached the Norwegian coastline west of Sognefjord. At this time the outriders started their search north and south looking for other vessels or even the destroyer. It might just be that the destroyer was heading in one of these directions and if so the outriders would report back to the main force. A German fighter was sighted to the north, but it quickly disappeared. A small convoy was seen to the south, but no trace of the destroyer. It must still be at Fordefjord. The outriders turned back and headed for base after completion of their missions.
....The formation headed towards Fordefjord from the south. The German fortress at Furuneset fired a few rounds at the Allied aircraft without inflicting any damage. Milson led his planes over Bygstad just south of the fjord. If the boats were still situated at Heilevang they could attack out of the fjord and head for the relative safety of the North Sea. The time was just past 16.00. The formation turned north expecting to see the enemy at the entrance of Fordefjord. Then; a nasty surprise. Butler relates; "But as we turned north with the intention of turning west into the fjord when we reached it, and making our attack "out to sea", we suddenly found ourselves under fire from the ships which were almost underneath us".
....The German sailors were quite familiar with the dangers of the Norwegian Coast. Wisely, the German commander had decided to take up residence elsewhere. Further into the fjord, near a place called Bjorkedal, the mountains rise almost vertically from the fjord and this was a near-perfect place to situate some of the ships. Two vessels sought the protective cover of these mountains, the others, including the Z-33, placed themselves at the other side of the fjord, near Frammarsvik. Yet three others were in the middel of the fjord, possibly to give their Flak guns a wider arch of fire. These vessels included several converted trawlers used for anti-aircraft duties. This was indeed an unwelcome surprise. Having been outmanouvred like this, Milson had no other choice but to initiate another attack run. Abandoning the attack was simply not an option. Because of the placement of the enemy vessels, Milson probably decided that it was impossible to launch an attack in the normal way out to sea. They had to get further east to make the attack run out the fjord. As the 40-plane formation turned east, the German sailors prepared for the forthcoming attack; some continued firing their guns, the officers shouted their quick orders; one vessel ran aground near Frammarsvik and the crew hurridly evacuated as did some from Z-33 itself. After having turned east, Wilson led his strike force south toward Forde and then west just south of the fjord. Wilson now realized that an attack out the fjord was virtually impossible if they were to have any chance of success. They would have to continue on a westerly direction and then make a 180 degree turn northeast again to attack into the fjord; just the opposite of the usual practise. Wilson ordered the Beaufighters into echelon port just before the Wing turned into the final attack run. Finally they were ready.
....The alarm had sounded at Herdla shortly before 15.50. On this fateful day 9. Staffel had 9 Focke-Wulfs on readiness, 12. Staffel had three. The grey and blue painted fighters had white and blue identification numbers painted on their fuselage sides, white signifying 9. Staffel, blue 12. Staffel. The nose rings were also painted in the appropriate Staffelcolour. Fw. Rudolf Artner, a very experienced pilot from the Eismeerfront was leading the 9. Staffel in his Focke-Wulf Fw 190A-8, "White 10". Having been the favourite wingman of famous Eismeer aces such as Heinrich Erhler and Walter Shuck, he was credited with 17 victories up to this date. Lt. Rudolf Linz used his faithful "Blue 4", an A-8 with close to 70 black victory bars on its white rudder, most of them from his time on the northeren front.
....Milson made the first attack, behind him others were queing up to make theirs. There was simply no room in the fjord for more than two or three Beaus to attack at the same time. Projectiles of all calibres were streaming towards the planes. The Flak was very heavy this day as the ships had been placed with the intention of giving such effective cover. The German gun crews were also highly skilled in their profession after more than 5 years of war. But it was not a one-sided battle. The Beaufighters singled out their targets and according to one of the eyewitnesses "it seemed to us as if it was the boats in the middle of the fjord which got the worst of it". Some planes attacked from south-west, others from a more western direction, the latter used cannon and rockets against the Z-33. If not hit, there were certainly near-misses as the boat "rocked and shaked in the sea".


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## Njaco (Oct 7, 2008)

_continued...._
....By 16.10 another factor was about to be brought into the battle. Beaufighter PL-Y of 144. Sqdn. piloted by P/O Smith and P/O "Spike" Holly acting as navigator, was one of the first into the attack. As they dived into the fjord, Smith noticed about 8 small planes coming from the south-west. Having succesfully attacked and evaded the enemy ships, they headed up the valley of Naustdal barely 50m over the landscape. Holly saw a fighter a couple of hundred yards behind them. He also wondered if this was a Mustang, but his hopes were shattered as he noticed the characteristic broad cowling of a radial-engine. It was a Focke-Wulf! The German fighter attacked and he and Holly fired almost simultanously. A cannon shell exploded near Holly, and splinters wounded him in the belly, knocking him unconsiouss. The cockpit and port Hercules was also hit, destroying the intercom and any hopes of regaining base. At low level they cut off some treetops and headed west, just north of Fordefjord. Smith had trouble controling the Beau' and a crashlanding was the only option. PL-Y continued to fly westwards, and Smith managed a crash-landing on the sea in Hoydalsfjord. They were rescued by civilians, but Smith and Holly were captured later that evening, and eventually transported to Bergen. But they had survived.
....Others were not so fortunate. 9./JG 5 had attacked directly into the Beaufighters waiting to attack the ships. Artner wrote after the battle: "About 50 km north of Sogne-Fjord, we saw the enemy formation which consisted of approximately 30 Beaufighters and 10 Mustang escort fighters. During a combined attack with my Staffel, I managed to gain hits on a Beaufighter which I attacked from behind and above. The beaufighter crashed burning in a flat angle. The crash was noted at 16.10 about 10 km north-west of Forde (Quadrat 06 East LM 1.5) The crew did not leave the plane."
....At about this time, FD/L Foster, leader of the 10 Mustang MK III of 65. Sqdn. discovered the German fighters too. He could see how they attacked the Beaufighters over Vevring, diving out of the sky from about 4000 feet. Then he saw three more fighters, heading directly for him. He fired a short burst at one of them, obtaining hits in the engine. Pursuing the Focke-Wulf, he observed how the fighter was trailing black smoke; this was at least a "probable". The German fighter crashed into the sea near Heilevang. The pilot, Lt. Karl-Heinz "Charly" Koch took to his parachute and he ended up in the cold fjord. He was eventually rescued by Norwegians. These events indicate that the three Focke-Wulfs of 12./JG 5 flying top cover attacked some of the Mustangs, whilst the 9./JG 5 dealt with the Beaufighters, at least initially.
....Another Mustang managed to pick off Fj.Ofw. Otto Leibfried's "White 22", actually an F-8 fighter-bomber, near Gjesneset just opposite to where Z-33 lay. Leibfried managed to bail out despite being wounded, but he landed in very difficult terrain. In the nights following the battle, people could see his flares calling for assisance. There was however, little the Norwegian and German patrols could do. 
....The battle soon spread over a large area in all directions. The Beaufighters suffered heavily at the hands of the Focke-Wulfs. Near Gaular civilians witnessed how a Beaufighter was pursued by a Focke-Wulf and was hit several times. The Beaufighter tried to land on an elevation, but the terrain made this impossibe. The plane broke in half during the crash and the cockpit-section slid down the hillside for more than 500 meters. Sadly, the crew perished in the crash. This was EE-C of the ill-fated 404 Sqdn. The crew, F/O Knight and F/O Lynch was on their first strike.
....A single Mustang tried to help out, and attacked the German fighter. A long aerial duel developed. The Mustang finally caught fire, and made a wide turn out the fjord. But the British pilot turned back. According to eyewitnesses the pilot must have been badly wounded, for instead of bailing out he continued the fight. But to no avail. The Mustang crashed in the green pine forrest being the only Mustang loss of this battle. W/O Cecil Claude Caesar was dead.
....The German fighter was in trouble also. The engine had been damaged and this forced the pilot to bail out. But he was too close to the ground for the chute to open. Fortunately, the snowy hillside enabled the pilot to survive, a small avalanche carried him to the bottom of the valley. During the journey down, the flare gun accidentally went off, causing severe burns on one leg. He could walk, and he found his way into a small barn. After a little while some Norwegians contacted him and took him to hospital. This pilot was Heinz Orlowski. He spent the rest of the war in hospital and reconvalence at Herdla, and did not see further combat. In 1994 he and his newly-restored "Weisse 1" was actually reunited in Texas, survivors of a fierce battle some 49 years before.
....Further north, in Naustdal, three fighters followed closely in the tracks of Smith and Holly's damaged Beaufighter. The leading plane had an in-line engine, a British Mustang. The other two were clearly Germans as the Mustang suddenly dived into the valley to emerge below one of the Focke-Wulfs and then fired a short burst of fire at it. It was a certain "kill" as the Focke-Wulf quickly flicked over and spiraled down with black smoke trailing behind to crash in a ball of flames near Solheimsstolen. The occupant, Lt. Rudi Linz was probably killed before impact as he made no attempt to evacuate the plane. 28 years of age, he was the most successful German pilot in Norway at this time, having been credited with 70 victories, most of them against Russians.
....Artner got his second victory of the day not far from where Linz fell. Coming barely three minutes after the first, Artner wrote the following report detailing his 19th victory of the war: "As the battle developed I managed to hit another Beaufighter twice during a low-level tailchase. The plane finally turned and crashed straight into the ground after yet another salvo. The crash was noted at 16.13 about 5 km nort-northwest of Naustdal (Quadrat 06 East KM 8,5)."
....Beaufighters were shot down over a wide area. The Beaufighter of F/O Savard and P/O Middleton bellied in on the ice, but turned over and trapped to crew. Norwegians tried to help them but turned around as German soldiers fired at them. Middleton was severly wounded and died when he was being transported to land, but Savard survived to spend the rest of the war as a POW. Another Beaufighter fell at the entrance to Fordefjord. F/L McColl and W/O MacDonald from 455 (RAAF) Sqdn. survived the crashlanding only to be taken in arrest by German soldiers in a nearby civilian house. Much to the german's intence irritation, Norwegians supplied McColl and MacDonald with food rarely seen at this stage of the war.
....The last Beaufighter to attack the vessels was PL-O with F/S Stan Butler at the controls. He had just attacked a small vessel with cannon fire and was trying to escape the inferno when a small caliber projectile pierced the cockpit and destroyed a manifold in the hydraulic system at the base of his control column. As Butler was maneuvering wildly to put the Flak gunners off their aim, the liquid splashed all over him and his canopy, making it very difficult to see out. At that moment the navigator F/S Nicholl discovered " the unmistakable front silhouette of an Fw 190 with little lights sparkling along its wings". Butler used a special trick he had learned during his training by a Canadian instructor in Calgary, Alberta. By careful control of the rudder and banking port and starboard, he was giving the impression that he was weaving from side to side. This would make it difficult for any attacker to get a good shot at his target, especially since Butler was constantly changing his altitude. Before the German pilot could figure out what to do about this elusive Englishman, Nicholl had fired a red Verey cartridge which thankfully alerted a Mustang to their problems. The Mustang successfully chased the offending Focke-Wulf away.
....The battle lasted only about 15 minutes. Thus at about 16.30 the last combatants withdrew from the battle and set course for home. The remaining Beaufighters and Mustangs, many of which were damaged, flew singly or in small groups all the way to Dallachy. Not only the planes had suffered; aboard Beaufighter UB-X of 455. Sqdn. F/O Spink , the pilot, was severely wounded. The navigator, F/O Clifford, had suffered a wound in his arm, but still he was able to assist his pilot. It did not help that the starboard engine had been damaged and was running out of control. At Dallachy they made a wheels-up landing in the dark, quite remarkable in view of the damages on both men and machine. Both received the "Distinguished Flying Cross" for this considerable feat.
....1 Mustang and 9 Beaufighters were shot down, no less than 6 of the Beaus from the hard-hit 404(RCAF) Squadron. This squadron lost 11 men killed on a this day, with another one taken prisoner. The Germans suffered losses also, though not so appalling. As related above, Otto Leibfried died after the battle was over, and Rudi Linz was probably dead before his Focke-Wulf hit the ground. The two other Germans shot down survived. Thus only two Germans fell in aerial combat.


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## renrich (Oct 8, 2008)

As far as time spent, intensity and impact on the outcome of the war, the approximately 5 minutes when the dive bombers from Enterprise and Yorktown started three IJN fleet carriers on their voyage to the bottom of the Pacific has to rank near the top.


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## Njaco (Oct 8, 2008)

That was amazing! Maybe I could start another poll that would be public and add all these additions.

*The Blackest Day: 10 June 1944*

Flight Journal, Dec 2003 by Cleaver, Thomas McKelvey

The great complex of air bases near Foggia, Italy, bustles with activity as the sun rises. Forty-six 82nd FG Lockheed P-38J Lightnings from the 95th, 96th and 97th Fighter Squadrons, each carrying a 1,000-pound bomb on the right wing shackle and a 310-gallon ferry drop tank on the left, shake the Foggia No. 11/Vincenzo airfield as they taxi for takeoff. Over the Adriatic, 48 1st Lighter Group P-38Js of the 27th, 71st and 94th FS flying escorts will join them. One after another over southern Italy, nearly 100 P-38s take wing and climb to altitude, Their target: Ploesti-the major oil refinery complex in Europe and more than 600 miles away across the Adriatic Sea and over the mountains of Yugoslavia. The mission: to dive-bomb the Romano-Americano oil refinery, which is the primary producer of high-grade aviation gasoline for the Luftwaffe. It will be recorded as the blackest day in the history of the American fighter forces in WW II.
....Among the pilots of the 96th Fighter Squadron detailed for the attack on Romano-Americano was Capt. Richard "Dick" Willsie, the Squadron Operations Officer and an experienced pilot with more than 40 missions under his belt. "_There were 46 of us with bombs, and 48 P-38 escorts from the 1st Fighter Group," Willsie explained. "The strategy was that we would join up while crossing the Adriatic and fly over Yugoslavia until we got to the mountains, at which point we would go into Romania on the deck-and I mean we were to remain at 50 to 100 feet altitude when we came out of the mountains."_
....Low-level formation flying is difficult under the best circumstances, let alone when two, three-squadron formations are flying on the deck under radio silence for two-and-a-half hours. Unfortunately for the Americans, the German air-defense radar spotted them over Yugoslavia before they entered Romanian airspace. This negated the value of the difficult low-level penetration, since they had lost the element of surprise. To cap things off, shortly after coming out of the mountains, the two groups had been separated. Both accelerated into their attack as they punched off their drop tanks over fields.
....With the radar reports now definite with regard to the U.S. attack, Luftwaffe Oberst Neumann and his assistant controller, Capitan Comandor Aviator Gheorghe Miclescu of the Romanian Air Force, scrambled their defenders as the P-38s spread out over the Romanian plain. At this point, the Germans-having identified the attackers as Jabos-expected an attack on their airfields. All operational IAR 80s of Grupul 6-led by top IAR 80 ace Capitan Aviator Dan Vizante (15 kills)-lifted off Popesti-Leordeni airfield and clawed for altitude while the Bf 109Gs of Grupul 7 flew back from the Russian Front and the Messerschmitts of I/JG 53 and III/JG 77 rose from Pipera airbase near Bucharest. Among the scrambling Luftwaffe Experten were I/JG 53 Gruppenkommandeur Knight's Cross holder Maj. Jurgen Harder (64 victories), Lt. Rupert Weninger, Lt. Erich Gehring and Uffz. Willi Dreyer, each of whom would raise his scores this day.
....Within minutes, Capitan Vizante and Grupul 6 were in position. Moments later, the P-38s of the 1st FG passed Popesti-Leordeni airfield and spotted four Do.217s attempting to land. Three flights of the 71st FS broke off to attack these aircraft. Moments later, they were bounced by the diving IAR 80s of Grupul 6. Four P-38s went down in the first pass as the others salvoed their drop tanks and tried to turn with the enemy. All the advantages the heavy P-38 had over the lighter IAR 80 were canceled out in dogfights waged at altitudes of between 100 and 300 feet. In the four-minute battle, the 23 Romanian pilots who made the interception claimed 23 P-38s for a loss of two of their own. The P-38s of the 71st FS suffered the highest casualties; nine of 16 were lost, while 2nd Lt. Herbert "Stub" Hatch Jr.-element lead for Cragmore Green flight-managed to shoot down five IAR 80s. These were the only Romanian losses of the day, and his success made Hatch one of the few P-38 "aces in a day." Capitan Aviator Dan Vizante added two P-38s to his score to solidify his position as top IAR 80 ace of the Romanian Air Force. Of 23 P-38s claimed by the Romanians, the 1st FG lost a total of 14 and numerous others were crippled.
....Not knowing that the battle was under way and still right on the deck as they approached Ploesti, the men of the 82nd overflew Pipera airbase looking for their missing escorts. Past the field, they began their climb to altitude to make the attack. At that moment, they were struck by the 40 Bf 109Gs of Grupul 7, I/JG 53 and III/JG 77. "_It was as though the roof fell in on us_," Willsie recalls. "_There were Messerschmitts and heavy flak bursts everywhere." _Of the 48 Lightnings in the attack, only 24 were able to drop their bombs on the target; nine were lost to flak and fighters and another 10 were badly damaged. During this combat, one Bf 109G-6 was shot down.
....Gefreiter Helmut Koditz was killed when his White 3 crashed near Brosteni. A second Bf 109G-6 made a successful belly landing at Horsesti, with minor battle damage. Lt. Merrill Adelson of 96th FS claimed an Me 210 and an he 111 hit while they were trying to lift off from the Pipera airbase; he also claimed the destruction of an unidentified single-engine fighter. Another 96th FS pilot, Lt. John Sognia, claimed a Bf 109G in the wild dogfights over the refinery.
....June 10, 1944, would go down in history as the blackest day in the combat history of the P-38 Lightning; the 30-percent loss rate represented the worst losses suffered during a single mission by American fighters in WW II. The Romanian claim of 51 U.S. fighters shot down was more than twice the actual loss, but 23 P-38s failed to return to their bases around Foggia. U.S. claims of 33 were also more than double the actual Romanian loss of 14-only 10 of which were fighters. The inflated claims of both sides indicate the intensity of the battle over Ploesti that day. Most important, despite all the sacrifice, the Romano-Americano refinery hadn't been seriously damaged.
.... "_We pretty much felt like we'd gotten kicked pretty hard that day,_" said Willsie. "_It took a lot of hard work by the ground crews for us to be ready for the mission we flew on the next day_." Despite the battering of June 10, the 82nd flew support on the next day for a B-24 mission to Constanta. The June 11 attacks showed the growing power of the Americans; a return flight of Operation Frantic I (a repeat of the first shuttle raid flown by the 15th AF to Russia on June 2) hit Ploesti with one of the hardest blows, as the B-24s destroyed their target at Constanta.


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## drgondog (Oct 8, 2008)

Njaco said:


> That was amazing! Maybe I could start another poll that would be public and add all these additions.
> 
> *The Blackest Day: 10 June 1944*
> 
> ...



This was by far the worst loss the USAAF had in a fighter to fighter engagement. Contrast that with losses the LW suffered against USAAF over the course of the war


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## Erich (Oct 8, 2008)

no comment about C's writing but does not base everything on truth, I would say his article needs to be further researched to see if what he says happened the way it happened


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## Njaco (Oct 8, 2008)

I agree Erich. I found a few head scratchers there but instead of re-writing the whole thing I just posted with the website. Maybe it'll spark an interest in some other members?


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## Erich (Oct 8, 2008)

to be honest I used to get flight j and then threw them all away.........what does that say to ya ?


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## Njaco (Oct 8, 2008)

Yeah, I stopped also. Now I have a bunch of old copies of Flypast from my dad. Its sometimes hard weeding out the faireytales.


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## Erich (Oct 8, 2008)

flypast is worthy for the most part


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## Glider (Oct 9, 2008)

The 82nd FG website gives losses of 4 missing, 3 shot down over the target, 1 lost on route to the target. 2 more crash landed at other bases and 2 more landed away.

The 1st FG website agrees that they lost 14 P38's that day so at first glance the write up is pretty close.


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## drgondog (Oct 10, 2008)

Glider said:


> The 82nd FG website gives losses of 4 missing, 3 shot down over the target, 1 lost on route to the target. 2 more crash landed at other bases and 2 more landed away.
> 
> The 1st FG website agrees that they lost 14 P38's that day so at first glance the write up is pretty close.



It was not a good day for the USAAF Fighters.


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## Juha (Oct 13, 2008)

Hello problem is how to define greatest.
For BoB, was it
15 Aug, when LW losses were biggest, 75 a/c, FC lost according to one source 28 in combat and 17 operationally or
18 Aug, when highest number of planes were lost according to A. Price, LW lost 69 and RAF/FAA 68, but 36 of RAF/FAA losses were on ground and 17 were trainers or other non-operational types. FC lost 39 a/c of which 8 on ground. Or
15 Sept when LW lost 56 and RAF 30 of which one was bomber. But psycologically 15 Sepy had big impact to LW aircrews who had heard for a some time that FC was down to last 50 Spitfires but after being harrassed by Spitfires and Hurricanes all the way to London met a new formation of 60 fighters over the city. In fact LW met over 250 RAF fighters twice during that day.

IMHO choice would be between 15 Aug and 15 Sept. But was the greatest air battle of BoB same time the greatest air battle of WWII?

Juha


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## Njaco (Oct 14, 2008)

Sorry for being cloudy, guys, with the question.



> Hello problem is how to define greatest.



Juha, that would be a personal decision. Maybe I should have said favorite.

*Day of the Blenheim: 14 May 1940*

RAF History - Bomber Command 60th Anniversary

14 May - A maximum effort was made against the German bridges across the Meuse at Sedan. 6 Blenheims bombed a road junction at Breda without loss. Ten Battles were detailed to pontoon bridges erected by then Germans across the Meuse River north of Sedan. All the aircraft returned safely. The remainder of the morning's bombing operations were flown by the few surviving bombers (29 in all) of the French Air Force in attempt to halt the German breakthrough at Sedan. The AASF faired little better with just 62 Battles and 8 Blenheims available for operations. The afternoon saw Air Vice-Marshal Playfair, the Commander of the AASF, gamble everything with all available aircraft being ordered into the air to bomb the Germans at Sedan. It was a massacre; No 12 Squadron lost 4 out of 5 aircraft; No 142 Squadron 4 out of 8; No 226 Squadron 3 out of 6; No 105 Squadron 6 out of 11; No 150 Squadron 4 out of 4; No 88 Squadron 1 out of 10; No 103 Squadron 3 out of 8 and No 218 Squadron 10 out of 11 aircraft. Total Battle losses were 35 out of 63 aircraft. Eight Blenheims were also involved (all flown by No 114 Squadron) and only three returned. A total of 102 crew members either lost their lives or were taken prisoner - a terrible price to pay as the pontoon bridges remained intact. In one last raid on the bridges, 6 Blenheims of No 2 Group were lost during an attack by 28 aircraft. This series of losses effectively finished the AASF as a fighting force and all attacks over France were subsequently carried out by home-based bomber units. In the days that followed the squadrons of the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) and AASF moved from base to base in an attempt to stay ahead of the German advance.


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## yogy (Oct 15, 2008)

I vote for 5th of July over Kursk. Ca. 400 claims altogether over such a small territory!


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## Udet (Nov 18, 2008)

...


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## Erich (Nov 18, 2008)

U ~ I'm glad you edited out your statements about J. Manhro and his book on Bodenplatte


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## pete_madi (Nov 19, 2008)

most of the battles were also fought by pilots who had the training and exp. of older pilots and more time in training so imy vote goes to BoB as most of these kids had minimal flying and no battle experience.peter


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## gepp (Oct 20, 2009)

tuff 1 well for me it was between Battle of Midway Dieppe Raid and I chose the Dieppe Raid ,The Abbeville boys of JG/26 them boys new how to rip it up.


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## parsifal (Oct 20, 2009)

My opinion is that for the early part of the war, the most significant air battles were at sea. I would rate the disabling of the bismarck, the Battles for malta, and the disabling of the italian fleet at taranto as the most significant actions until the entry of the US. The reason is that it was at sea that had the greatest potential to cause an upset in the war. If the Axis could get heavy units into the Atlantic, they could threaten the escort forces holding the U-Boats in check. If the escorts were neutralized by these heavy units the war was essentially lost.

In the med, this seemingly secondary theatre had the potential to cause an upset. The key to the MTO was logistics, and the key to the logistics was malta, and the key to malta was the control of the oceans and the skies around it. If the British had been unable to undertake force projection into the central basin, (and the key to doing that was the carriers providing support to the RN), Malta would fall. with Malta fallen, the Axis supply problems to the North African theatre would be solved. With logistics solved, the Germans would almost certainly have overrun the oil fields of the middle east. With these under their control, the whole balance of power would change.

The actions by the miniscule CAGs onboard those handful of RN carriers (and on malta....an unsinkable carrier essentially) changed the course of history........


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## Njaco (Oct 20, 2009)

I agree Parsifal. The more I read about what went on in the MTO the more I'm convinced that it was just as important, if not more than, the ETO and PTO. If not for the actual battles and victories but also as a fair training ground for all involved.


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## proton45 (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned any of the air battles over Khalkhin Gol...their where several big battles that involved hundreds of aeroplanes. 

1) The romance of "dogfighting" was still alive (the first big air battles sense WW1).

2) Modern aeroplanes meets old world tech and tactics. 

3) Vicious huge swirling dogfights with battles that made "Aces" in a day. 

4) Daring rescues (pilots landing behind enemy lines to rescue downed comrades)

5) The first air war (battles) with modern aircraft...


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## scrimshaw jenkins (Oct 20, 2009)

Ask those involved which was Greatest, I bet they were all tooth-grinding puckerers!


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## syscom3 (Oct 20, 2009)

Njaco said:


> ...... it was just as important, if not more than, the ETO and PTO .......



I will agree with the importance, but "more"? A bit of an exaggeration isnt it?


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## parsifal (Oct 20, 2009)

The equation changed fundamentally once the US and Japan were in the war. After Pearl the war took on a truly global aspect, and it becomes very difficult to argue that the RN carriers, and the battles they fought were as central to victory as those actions in 1939-41.

The British were not equipped to fight the japanese properly,. Only the US possessed the training, the equipment, and the numbers to undertake that task. Whilst the RN was capable of containing the Axis, and thereby limiting its power, it lacked the strength and equipment to push the fight forward and crush the Axis in the way the USN did in the Pacific. 

After the Axis had been contained, it is more difficult to argue that Naval aviation was as important. I tend to believe that the key to victory swung over to land based air, though this argument is less convincing in the PTO. In the ETO there are four broad strategic choices

1) The Night battles over Germany
2) The day battles over Germany
3) The Tacair operations over the western front
4) Tacair operations over the eastern front.

Once one of these broad categories are selected as the "key" air baqttle, one has to select one fought in that genre that contributed the most to victory.

I tend to believe the destruction of the german army in Falaise, or the ardennes may qualify as the single most important air battle in the latter years of the war....but am unsure really 

t

Reactions: Agree Agree:
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## Njaco (Oct 25, 2009)

syscom3 said:


> I will agree with the importance, but "more"? A bit of an exaggeration isnt it?



That could be. But I don't really think the Allies would have as great a success as they had in the ETO without the trials and tribulations and ongoing combat within the MTO. Just my opinion which well could be misplaced.


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