# Ok guys, help me out here..



## Soren (May 18, 2008)

I've been looking for a new rimfire rifle for varmint hunting for some time now, however I can't decide between these three (below), so help me out here guys which one should I buy ??

*Czech built CZ 453 American in cal .17 HMR:* Good looks, nice craftsmanship, very accurate and reasonable price (This is the one I'm leaning towards the most)






*German built Anschütz 1517 MP R Multipurpose in cal .17 HMR:* Great looks, excellent craftsmanship, extremely accurate but pretty expensive being sold to about twice the price of the CZ Savage. (My dream of a rimfire rifle, but god it's expensive)





*American built Savage 93R17 GV in cal. 17 HMR*: Good looks, nice craftsmanship, very accurate and good price (This is an attractive rifle!)





And then there's the Sako Quad, Marlin rifles and Remington rifles.

Any good advice ??


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## comiso90 (May 18, 2008)

I'd say start with which round you want to do the damage. Looks like you have your mind set on a .17?

The reading i've done seems to point to a .223 cartridge. Why do you like the .17?

I think Anshuntz are the bst for target shooting.. expensive and heavy.
Personally, I like some of the synthetic stocks on the Remingtins for work in the bush.

Have you seen this?

17HMR.net Forums


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## Soren (May 18, 2008)

I pretty much decided on the .17 HMR because of its effectiveness on small game (it litterally explodes when entering the target) and because of its better accuracy compared to the .22 WMR. 

As for the .223, well it's abit more powerful than needed IMO.


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## comiso90 (May 18, 2008)

What kind of varmits?

In Central California, Varmits mean coyotes and ground squirrels. .

223 is a bit much for squirrels. For them I'd rather use a Ruger 10-22. 

For Coyotes the .223 works well.

.


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## Soren (May 18, 2008)

Exactly Comiso!

Here in Denmark the varmints are usually around the size of squirrels, although we do have foxes etc etc., but for these I either use my shotgun or my Sako 6.5x55mm. But we've got allot of water voles, for which I'll be using the rimfire rifle mostly.

The problem is there's a good 150 to 200 meters of open range before you can get to them, so I need something which can reach out accurately at that range, and the .17 HMR is regarded as very accurate at those ranges compared to the .22 WMR.


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## Matt308 (May 18, 2008)

If you don't like .223 then you won't like the penultimate .22-250. If you don't reload and you are shooting 150m or less, than .17HMR is probably okay for voles. But 150m is a stretch for .17HMR with any wind.

Are you looking to only buy your cartridges locally? Reload? These can quickly factor in. As Comiso said, .223 is cheap and accurate. If you think that is too much medicine, than I would question your 200m distances. That is a stretch for varmint hunting with anything less.


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## Soren (May 18, 2008)

Well I can get within 150m without any problems, and at that range a squirrel litterally explodes when hit by a .17 HMR, so I don't expect water voles to fair any better.

Now as to wind, well this is a problem for any rimfire round, but less so for the .17 HMR both by virtue of its clean bullet design velocity. Ofcourse if it's very windy I won't go at all.

As for purchase of ammunition, well I'll buy it locally (Or as close to as possible), I can't reload as they don't sell cal .17 HMR cartridges bullets seperately here so..

Have you got any expereince with the .17 HMR Matt ? If so is it all its made up to be, or is it ineffective in a number of ways ?


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## Matt308 (May 19, 2008)

It is a perfectly good cartridge within its limitations. And I would stick to inside 150yds and on small varmints. Its a good round. I personally don't own one, but have friends who do. Its not a .222 or .223 power class, but it certainly is well within capabilities of taking squirrel and small voles at a little over 100yds.

What kind of scope, Soren? And I notice you are looking at oversize barrels. You intend to do a lot of shooting in a short time frame?

Buy American. The exchange rate is prime for a good deal. Take a look at Kimber, Ruger and Savage (from most to least expensive). But don't shun the Savage with the Accutrigger. It consistently gets high ratings.

Kimber - Continuing The Legacy

Ruger M77 Mark II Bolt ActionRifles

Savage Arms Model 12 Long Range Precision Varminter


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## SoD Stitch (May 19, 2008)

Wow! I have obviously been out of circulation on the smaller calibre rifles for quite a while; I clearly don't know nearly as much as you guys do about effective small calibre rounds. In my day, a .22 long was what we used for "varmint" hunting; I remember it was a big deal when my father managed to get his hands on a second-generation AR-15 (this was circa 1972). He said it would literally blow squirrels and rabbits apart; not much good for eating after that. He had also planned (illegally) to convert it to full-auto (sounded cool back then, doesn't make much sense now; a three-round burst is fine for me, thank you very much).


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## Soren (May 20, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> It is a perfectly good cartridge within its limitations. And I would stick to inside 150yds and on small varmints. Its a good round. I personally don't own one, but have friends who do. Its not a .222 or .223 power class, but it certainly is well within capabilities of taking squirrel and small voles at a little over 100yds.



Sounds good, and it certainly looks as though its pretty darn effective.

Here's a video from youtube of a ground squirrel taking on a .17 HMR (Warning: Graphic!):

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJOF1nlCgB0_

Looks pretty effective 



> What kind of scope, Soren?



Oh can't remember the name of it, not very expensive but its got great very clear optics and is equipped with parallax adjustment.



> And I notice you are looking at oversize barrels. You intend to do a lot of shooting in a short time frame?



Well I dunno, the CZ American has a medium heavy barrel, while the two others feature heavy barrels.



> Buy American. The exchange rate is prime for a good deal. Take a look at Kimber, Ruger and Savage (from most to least expensive). But don't shun the Savage with the Accutrigger. It consistently gets high ratings.



Do you mean buy American as in buy the CZ American, or just buy American ?

The CZ American costs as much as the Savage. The only ones which are cheaper are Marlin Remington, but quality isn't very good. 

My options are:
Anschütz = Highest quality craftsmanship precision, but bloody expensive!
Sako = Great craftsmanship precision, but again on the expensive side.
CZ = Very good craftsmanship precision, and a very reasonabe price.
Savage = Very good craftsmanship precision, and again very nice price.
Remington = Average craftsmanship but very good precision (I've heard), price on the high side for what you get.
Marlin = What can I say, looks rather cheap, although I'm sure it shoots nice enough.
And then there's some japanese brand but the craftsmanship is just awful on those..

That's what available to me..

Would've liked to see what Ruger could offer but they don't seem to sell them anywhere here in Denmark, will go look when I get back to Aussie land


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## Soren (May 20, 2008)

Hmmm... think I've made my choice, I'm going for the CZ 452:






The scope I'm getting is bigger and with parallex adjustment.

Ever had a rifle from CZ Matt ??


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## drgondog (May 21, 2008)

Soren said:


> Hmmm... think I've made my choice, I'm going for the CZ 452:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Too bad the 10-22 isn't available there. I have a 10-22 Bull barrel (factory - not match) that I have had for a long time that shoots 5 shot groups with Eley Match into 3/4" at 100 yards and sometimes 1/2. Most high velocity stuff is in the 2" or less groups at 150 yards. 

I am not afraid to take a head shot at a Coyote at that range but careful beyond that to not take the shot.

This website has info about match barrel and clock for .17cal Mach II conversion kit and this rifle has an amazing secondary market for match triggers, stocks, match barrels, etc.

17 Mach 2 Ruger 10/22 Information Post - 17 HM2 comments, rumors, and shooting results.

CZ is a fine mfr. - but I have no experience with their small bore stuff


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## Soren (May 21, 2008)

The .17 HM2 isn't good enough for the 100y shots or more IMO, I need abit more power to be sure the animal doesn't just get seriously wounded. I think the .17 HMR is the best choice.

I've also considered the .22 WMR because of its better penetration at close ranges, going straight thrugh bone while the .17 HMR ballistic tip just explodes on contact. But I've heard that a FMJ .17 HMR round is soon to be launched, which would solve the that problem.


Now here's an idiot that doesn't understand what size animals the .17 HMR ballistic tip is meant for (Watch how he tries to break the neck of the one still alive - wtf is he doing ??):

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76M3nHZVRbM_


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## drgondog (May 21, 2008)

I agree the difference between the two .17s - either conversion kit is available.

I agree 22 mag better choice for say, rabbit size varmints or game.

I have killed about 15 Coyotes on the ranch in the past six years at 75-150 with 22LR - all easy controlled and steady rest - all one shot to head.

Anything I say about the .17 is speculative and what I read.

Having said all that I love the Ruger 10-22. I also have a Kimber and the Ruger 77/22 and the old Browning stock fed/take down .22 with iron sights only. It is in my survival kit.


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## Soren (May 21, 2008)

To the head there's no doubt you can take down a Coyotee with the .22 LR, but anywhere else and there's a great chance it just runs off. (But I see you use a semi auto rifle, which means you should be able to quickly take it down incase you make an unlucky hit) The .17 HMR .22 WMR should ensure deadly damage if the torso is hit. But then again I wont be hunting foxes, which would be Denmark's equal to coyotes.

Here's some info on the .17 HMR I found on the net, a good read and I think anyone thinking about buying a new rimfire rifle should read it:
Untitled Document


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## slaterat (May 22, 2008)

I'd go with the Savage, I've got a .22 mk II with the acu trigger. A very nice and inexpensive gun. The classic has more craftsman like feel for more dollars though.

Slaterat


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## Soren (May 22, 2008)

Went to the shop to today and tried them all out, and yes the accu trigger is very nice, but I like the triggers of them all really, so that wont be the deciding factor.

But I made a choice, the CZ 452 ZKM in .17 HMR is being made for me with a 3 - 12x scope with parallex adjustment, and it looks very nice. Will go zero'ing it in next thursday.

Matt made a good point about the heavy barrel, and I realized I was never going to be shooting that many rounds right after each as for that to become necessary. And so I went for the std. barrel, which is still good to transfer away heat when firing such a small caliber round.


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## Matt308 (May 24, 2008)

Excellent choice, Soren! You wont be disappointed with the CZ. What make of scope?


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## Matt308 (May 24, 2008)

Soren said:


> Now here's an idiot that doesn't understand what size animals the .17 HMR ballistic tip is meant for (Watch how he tries to break the neck of the one still alive - wtf is he doing ??):
> 
> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76M3nHZVRbM_




Agreed. I'm not a hunter, but in the states I think that would be illegal as all hell. The neck twist is not out of the ordinary however. Where was that? Australia? New Zealand?


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## Soren (May 25, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> Excellent choice, Soren! You wont be disappointed with the CZ. What make of scope?



Thanks Matt, I pretty much went for it because with craftsmanship, looks and price combined it was the best available really. 

As for which scope, it's either a Hawke or Tasco, can't remember. But it's 3 to 12x magnification and with parellaxe (Not parallex, Duh!) adjustment.

Next rifle on the list is yet another Karabiner 98k for the collection, as I recently talked to an attorney who suddenly mentioned he had one at home, so ofcourse expressing a lot of interest I was invited over to have a look at it and was then asked wether I wanted to buy it. And I must say, after having a look and seeing how fine a speciment this was I just couldn't refuse! (Damn pocket has a mind of its own!  )



> Agreed. I'm not a hunter, but in the states I think that would be illegal as all hell.



It's unnecessary pain forced upon the animals, and it's plain simple just not right. The ballistic tip is meant for game no larger than ground hogs. He should've used CCI's 20gr hollow point instead as it tears straight through bone.



> The neck twist is not out of the ordinary however.



The way he did it is though. The best way to do it is to grap right below the head with your left hand and then quickly twist the head around with your right hand whilst at the same time pulling. Some also slap the head against a hard surface or object.



> Where was that? Australia? New Zealand?



New Zealand, no doubt about it.


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## Aussie1001 (May 25, 2008)

Soren how are you ?
Firstly i own a BRNO (who are now CZ) and the rifle i have is an great piece of harware, nice and light and very accurate, since i live on a farm we often go rabbit shooting and for that sort of game it is perfect, but the range is rarly more than 50 feet. Have you considered a .22 hornet a mate owns one and from all accounts the are quite good.
reguards 
Aussie 1001


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## Soren (May 25, 2008)

Hi Aussie

I'm just fine, you ?

Yeah CZ used to be BRNO that's true. Glad to hear you have good experience with the brand, I'm really looking forward shooting mine on thursday 

As for the .22 Hornet, I thought about it but the .17 HMR suits the role like a glove, so I went for it.

Interestingly I didn't research how much .22 Hornet ammunition costs (.17 HMR isn't exactly cheap)..


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## Soren (May 25, 2008)

Btw, Aussie how does the landscape arround your farm look like ?

50 ft is pretty short range, unless it's in the bush ofcourse.


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## Aussie1001 (May 25, 2008)

I'm well thanks.
Well indiceindently today a couple of mates came over to sight their rifles in and we had a blast, they had a mk 4 SMLE, i tell you what their's nothing like the feel of a SMLE. They also had an old .310 cadet rifle bored out to a .357 magnum which was also a bit of fun.


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## Aussie1001 (May 25, 2008)

Soren we live on 3000 acres which is mainly flat, with a big mountain in the middle, although we can't just go loosing big bore rifles off anywhere as we have livestock on it. the place we go shooting bunnies is on a gentle slope which levels off to a flat plain, we go shooting in our 40's series landcrusier and it all works out pretty darn good.

the reason it's only 50 feet is because it's at night and the spotlight can't light up much beyond that, we also have to take cows into consideration and watch where we are firing, so far we havn't killed one so fingers crossed.

we also shoot ducks (but rarely) and we have quite a few large dams which they all flock around.


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## Matt308 (May 25, 2008)

3000 acres! Sounds like heaven.


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## Soren (May 26, 2008)

Sounds very nice Aussie. Sure wish I had that much space to play around on!

I understand that you don't hunt during the day or in the morning ?

And yeah, the SMLE Mk.4 is a very nice rifle, esp. the very smooth action


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## Aussie1001 (May 27, 2008)

no, we only hunt during the night as that is when most of the game in our area comes out i.e. Dingoes and rabbits.


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## Soren (May 28, 2008)

Dingoes Rabbits are out in the early morning as-well. Don't want to get up that early Aussie ??


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## Bucksnort101 (May 28, 2008)

I think the .17 will suit you well, but wind dows affect that tiny little bullet more that you think. Did some shooting in windy conditional and the bullet was pushed of it mark by several inches. The heavier .17 bullet faired a bit better that the lighter ones though.
As far as which rifle, I owned a Savage .17, great little rifle for the price, but make sure you buy it in person and have several to choose from as the trigger pull and smoothness varies drastically from on rifle to the next. All have a pretty hefty trigger pull. I picked the one with the least creep and brought it to the gunsmith to have it smoothed out and lightened a bit . There are some drop in triggers for the Savage line out there, but they can get a little spendy as well.
Read good things about the CZ Rifles as well, but I cannot find any locally, plus I am a lefty and like to have a lefty rifle for hunting.


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## Bucksnort101 (May 28, 2008)

Forgot to add , the Ruger .204 Caliber night be another route for you, depending on availability of ammunition. Reloading this round would probably be the way to go if you do a lot of shooting.


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## Aussie1001 (May 28, 2008)

not soren i'm not a morning person.


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## Matt308 (May 28, 2008)

Ruger .204 is definitely technically good. But too early to see of it will be adopted in the long term as an investment in reloading gear.


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