# Farewell and best of luck



## tomo pauk (May 14, 2021)

Dear fellow members,

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to learn a lot of stuff that was the ww2 aviation, to figuratively meet people form all walks of life, to broaden my horizons, to point out the good sources of information (and to warn me of bad 'sources'), to make my English language skills better.

With that said. Sharing the same part of cyberspace with a member that, in my sincere opinion, uses every opportunity to justify the aggression of Nazi Germany is not acceptable to me. The moderator team disagrees with my opinion. Thus I'll log off from the forum.

Good luck to all of you,
Tomislav

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## Thumpalumpacus (May 14, 2021)

tomo pauk said:


> Dear fellow members,
> 
> Thank you for giving me the opportunity to learn a lot of stuff that was the ww2 aviation, to figuratively meet people form all walks of life, to broaden my horizons, to point out the good sources of information (and to warn me of bad 'sources'), to make my English language skills better.
> 
> ...



I'll be sorry to see you go, and hope you reconsider. Your posts regularly provide me with info and insights I didn't know or hadn't considered.

Have you given thought to the idea that your staying and debunking the Nazi apologia you read might be useful?

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## rochie (May 14, 2021)

Thomislav.

i hope you reconsider leaving, i went through a similar thing a few years ago and disappeared for a few months and still find it difficult not to reply to those sort of posts.

good luck my friend

Karl

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## GrauGeist (May 14, 2021)

Tomo, my friend, you are valued and always a welcome sight in any conversation here.

Do not allow apologists/revisionist to drive you away. I see posts that raise my hair and often times shake my head and move on, resisting the urge of confrontation.

The forum does have an "ignore" feature (much like FB's block feature) that eliminates their posts from your view.

Whichever you decide, best of luck and good health to you!

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## SaparotRob (May 14, 2021)

I really can appreciate your position. My folks were on the receiving end of lebensraum. I just don’t comment. I would hope that you reconsider and perhaps instead take a sabbatical. I’ll miss correcting your posts 😉.
We need creators of interesting threads.

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## vikingBerserker (May 14, 2021)

Hope to see you again my friend, I've always enjoyed your logic.

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## fubar57 (May 14, 2021)

Agree with all here Tomo. I've learned a lot here from you and hope to keep on doing so. I agree with Dave; blocking works wonders

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## pbehn (May 14, 2021)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> I'll be sorry to see you go, and hope you reconsider. Your posts regularly provide me with info and insights I didn't know or hadn't considered.
> 
> Have you given thought to the idea that your staying and debunking the Nazi apologia you read might be useful?


The post has been edited but I saw the original, it was holocaust denial by an expert in holocaust denial, sailing as close to the wind of holocaust denial without actually crossing the line to being illegal where holocaust denial is a crime. You cannot win the argument because he is only seeing how much propaganda he can get away with, that is why he edited out the worst of it, when Tomo posted an objection.

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## Airframes (May 14, 2021)

Tomislav, although I understand your feelings, never give up.
Those who post, believe and broadcast such idiotic, senseless and insulting nonsense are the weak ones, and don't have the sense or understanding to see beyond their own bigoted beliefs. It's they who should go, and they eventually will, when they finally realise that their crazed notions are not being accepted by the intelligent, caring and much more informed populace of this forum, and the World in general.
For what it's worth, I would respectfully suggest that you reconsider, perhaps take a bit of leave, but then return, a much stronger, resolute and very welcome member of the family that is this forum.
Meanwhile, take care my friend and always remember - "Nil Illigitimus Carborundum " !

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## Thumpalumpacus (May 14, 2021)

pbehn said:


> The post has been edited but I saw the original, it was holocaust denial by an expert in holocaust denial, sailing as close to the wind of holocaust denial without actually crossing the line to being illegal where holocaust denial is a crime. You cannot win the argument because he is only seeing how much propaganda he can get away with, that is why he edited out the worst of it, when Tomo posted an objection.



I must take your word for it, as I only saw the thing three or four hours after posting, and that before coffee had started working. In any event, my suggestion was only that, and I certainly understand that them might be some rocky shoals here, or in most other forums, politics and all being verboten.

I stand by all else, that Tomo has for me been a fount of information and should he decide to stay away, I will certainly miss his input, new though I am here. I hope he puts the guy on ignore and continues his great contributions.


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## pbehn (May 14, 2021)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> I must take your word for it, as I only saw the thing three or four hours after posting. In any event, my suggestion is only that, and I certainly understand that them might be some rocky shoals here, or in most other forums.
> 
> I stand by all else, that Tomo has for me been a fount of information and should he decide to stay away, I will certainly miss his input, new though I am here. I hope he puts the guy on ignore and continues his great contributions.


I was doing other stuff while mentally composing a reply, when I pressed the quote button the worst of what he posted had been removed, but I referenced it in my comment on the thread. I will not accept that Bergen Belsen deaths were an infrastructure problem, it is an assertion by someone who quotes the Geneva convention here there and everywhere. Maybe I am hypersensitive because I lived and worked close to the place for many years, I met many very nice people but far too many deniers like the poster concerned.

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## Thumpalumpacus (May 14, 2021)

pbehn said:


> I will not accept that Bergen Belsen deaths were an infrastructure problem, it is an assertion by someone who quotes the Geneva convention here there and everywhere. Maybe I am hypersensitive because I lived and worked close to the place for many years, I met many very nice people but far too many deniers like the poster concerned.



Yeah, I'd be barking loud at that myself. As I wrote above, I apparently didn't see the original, unmodified post. Even the edited post struck me as apologetics, which is why I wrote what I did. Your correction is appreciated.

I don't know that there's such a thing as "oversensitivity" when it comes to mass murder. I sure didn't mean to come off so blithe, given what you report about the post that caused this.

At any rate, I hope Tomo reconsiders and stays, because guys like him (and many others, yourself included) are why I read and post here.

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## pbehn (May 14, 2021)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Yeah, I'd be barking loud at that myself. As I wrote above, I apparently didn't see the original, unmodified post. Even the edited post struck me as apologetics, which is why I wrote what I did. Your correction is appreciated.
> 
> I don't know that there's such a thing as "oversensitivity" when it comes to mass murder. I sure didn't mean to come off so blithe, given what you report about the post that caused this.
> 
> At any rate, I hope Tomo reconsiders and stays, because guys like him (and many others, yourself included) are why I read and post here.


I have worked all over Northern Europe and in the steel industry and ports that were targeted by mass raids by both sides, places like Aulnoye and Rouen that were bombed by their "own side" and Dalmine that wasnt on any side. I have also been to the Hiroshima peace park and Tokyo, however horrible they were there was some meaning, Bergen Belsen was pure, evil, spite and nothing else, just seeing the name on a sign post made my blood run cold every two weeks when I flew home in a way no other place ever has done, it is worse, if that is possible, than Auschwitz. in my opinion.

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## Shortround6 (May 14, 2021)

Tomislav 

You and I have argued back and forth many times over many years, but I have always thought of you as a friend and always will. 
If you do not come back you will be sorely missed. Both as a valued contributor and as a level headed person in general who has been consistently pleasant to the majority of the other members. 
Good luck to your and your family. May your days easy and joyful.

And hopefully your absence will be short. 

Stephen.

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## Thumpalumpacus (May 14, 2021)

pbehn said:


> I have worked all over Northern Europe and in the steel industry and ports that were targeted by mass raids by both sides, places like Aulnoye and Rouen that were bombed by their "own side" and Dalmine that wasnt on any side. I have also been to the Hiroshima peace park and Tokyo, however horrible they were there was some meaning, Bergen Belsen was pure, evil, spite and nothing else, just seeing the name on a sign post made my blood run cold every two weeks when I flew home in a way no other place ever has done, it is worse, if that is possible, than Auschwitz. in my opinion.



I don't have and therefore cannot share your direct experiences. But if, as you say, someone wants to excuse death-camps, I've got no time for them. I don't need to be Jewish to understand the history of the Holocaust, nor why it was wrong, nor why it is -- to bring this back into the scope of this thread -- indefensible.


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## Airframes (May 14, 2021)

I can thoroughly understand that.
As a young Para back in 1973, I visited Bergen-Belsen, when it was still a relatively desolate clearing in the woods, except for the stones marking the mass burial mounds. I'd heard the stories of how quiet and "dead" it could seem to be and, true enough, it was !
In the surrounding countryside, wildlife abounded, birds flew and sang - but not at Belsen !
The place was totally still and quiet, no bird song, no movement of wildlife anywhere around, on the ground, or in the sky.
I've seen and experienced some nasty things in my life, but _*nothing*_ can compare to that feeling I had at Belsen - even now, 48 years later, just thinking about that experience makes me shudder !!

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## FLYBOYJ (May 14, 2021)

tomo pauk said:


> Dear fellow members,
> 
> Thank you for giving me the opportunity to learn a lot of stuff that was the ww2 aviation, to figuratively meet people form all walks of life, to broaden my horizons, to point out the good sources of information (and to warn me of bad 'sources'), to make my English language skills better.
> 
> ...



Tomo - please PM me and give me details, first I'm hearing of this.

AND Please reconsider. You're a valuable member of this forum and one of our top and knowledgeable posters. I really hate to see you move on!

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## Zipper730 (May 14, 2021)

When it comes to people like that, the answer is to relentlessly confront them.

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## at6 (May 15, 2021)

I sincerely hope that you reconsider leaving us.

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## wuzak (May 15, 2021)

Say it ain't so, Tomo!


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## Marcel (May 15, 2021)

tomo pauk said:


> With that said. Sharing the same part of cyberspace with a member that, in my sincere opinion, uses every opportunity to justify the aggression of Nazi Germany is not acceptable to me. The moderator team disagrees with my opinion. Thus I'll log off from the forum.
> 
> Good luck to all of you,
> Tomislav


I have no idea what you are talking about. Send me a pm?


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## Marcel (May 15, 2021)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Tomo - please PM me and give me details, first I'm hearing of this.
> 
> AND Please reconsider. You're a valuable member of this forum and one of our top and knowledgeable posters. I really hate to see you move on!


Ah, same idea! I don’t know either.


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## Neil Stirling (May 15, 2021)

tomo pauk said:


> Dear fellow members,
> 
> Thank you for giving me the opportunity to learn a lot of stuff that was the ww2 aviation, to figuratively meet people form all walks of life, to broaden my horizons, to point out the good sources of information (and to warn me of bad 'sources'), to make my English language skills better.
> 
> ...



Tomo, 

I can imagine who it was. Don't leave.

Neil.

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## stona (May 15, 2021)

Zipper730 said:


> When it comes to people like that, the answer is to relentlessly confront them.



I used to think that, but then you become the victim of what the Americans call a 'Gish-Gallop'.
Once upon a time I would engage such people and refute their arguments, now I simply ignore them. They are seeking a reaction as a means to further promote their theories, there is nothing worse, for them, than for the reaction to their post from the body of the forum to be nothing, virtual silence. By acknowledging them you are inadvertently complicit in their efforts to draw attention to and promote their nasty conspiracy. You will just encourage them, like other forms of troll.
The moderators can and should delete them, but that won't stop them trying again. They soon lose interest when ignored.

As for Tomo, I understand how he feels, but sincerely hope he will reconsider. Maybe take a time out, he will always be welcomed back.

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## Dana Bell (May 15, 2021)

I missed the original discussion, so I don't know all the details. But my dad was with the 188th Combat Engineers when they took Bergen-Belsen; other units moved on, he stayed as part of the water purification team to help in survivor recovery. I discovered Dad's photos when I was very young and they still haunt me.

I'm always amazed by any argument that the number of death camp victems was exaggerated. They were death camps, designed for one purpose. They numbers don't matter - one murder was too many....

Tomo, if you're still reading here, you're among friends who know the truth.



Dana

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## special ed (May 15, 2021)

You are welcome back. Don't retreat. Don't let him win.

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## Thumpalumpacus (May 15, 2021)

stona said:


> I used to think that, but then you become the victim of what the Americans call a 'Gish-Gallop'.
> Once upon a time I would engage such people and refute their arguments, now I simply ignore them. They are seeking a reaction as a means to further promote their theories, there is nothing worse, for them, than for the reaction to their post from the body of the forum to be nothing, virtual silence. By acknowledging them you are inadvertently complicit in their efforts to draw attention to and promote their nasty conspiracy. You will just encourage them, like other forms of troll.
> The moderators can and should delete them, but that won't stop them trying again. They soon lose interest when ignored.
> 
> As for Tomo, I understand how he feels, but sincerely hope he will reconsider. Maybe take a time out, he will always be welcomed back.



There's some truth to what you write here, but at the same time, "all it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing." Rather than a knock-down drag-out argument, my approach (in those forums which permit the discussion) is to post a short reply laying out the truths we know, and linking to solid information.

I certainly agree that quicksand should be avoided, as should any long conversations.

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## Glider (May 15, 2021)

You will be sorely missed for your wisdom not just your knowledge. I am sure that I speak for all when I ask you to make the break a short one

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## Mainly28s (May 15, 2021)

While I didn't see the posts (maybe in a thread I wasn't interested in), I feel that anyone who denies the past should be called out. Tomo, don't leave permanently. Take a break, by all means, but come back after.

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## stona (May 15, 2021)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> There's some truth to what you write here, but at the same time, "all it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing." Rather than a knock-down drag-out argument, my approach (in those forums which permit the discussion) is to post a short reply laying out the truths we know, and linking to solid information.
> 
> I certainly agree that quicksand should be avoided, as should any long conversations.



They are not interested in 'solid information'. If they were they would not be Holocaust deniers, flat earthers, moon landing deniers, believers in chem-trails, etc., etc. They want you to argue with them because it gives them a platform for their views outside the echo chambers in which they usually operate.

Starve them of oxygen, confine them to their echo chambers, don't engage. I learnt the hard way, having expended a lot of time and effort on pointless exchanges.

This is my personal view and of course others are free to react however they see fit. Anyone deciding to take such people on will certainly enjoy my support.

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## SaparotRob (May 15, 2021)

It's not flat?

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## GrauGeist (May 15, 2021)

With these people, the old saying: "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" applies.
These people get a notion in their head and no matter how much solid, irrefutable evidence is place before them, they refuse to accept it, much like trying to get a child to eat steamed Brussels sprouts - it's just not going to happen.

I agree with the above, starve them of attention. Let them go elsewhere to seek the attention they crave - life is too short for that nonsense.


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## pbehn (May 15, 2021)

You cannot tell these people anything they dont know already, they just pretend not to, to find out what you know. The guy concerned has an encyclopaedic knowledge of most things but the inconvenient areas are complete black holes. Putting the record straight makes no difference, he will pretend not to know it in the next discussion. He also knows exactly what to say and not to say as if there is any difference between termination camp, extermination camp and concentration camp when discussing a barbed wire enclosure containing 60,000 people with no food, water or sanitation.

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## FLYBOYJ (May 15, 2021)

Folks - be advised this issue is being looked into. I reached out to Tomo and hopefully he'll be back soon.

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## GrauGeist (May 15, 2021)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Folks - be advised this issue is being looked into. I reached out to Tomo and hopefully he'll be back soon.


Thanks, Joe!

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## stona (May 15, 2021)

SaparotRob said:


> It's not flat?



My bit is!

My back garden has a bit of a slope, hardly surprising given that there is a river less than 100m away, but it is otherwise definitely flat 

QED I say, or at least _they_ say.

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## tomo pauk (May 15, 2021)

Hello, people,
Moderators have decided to take another look at the issues I've found to be championing of the twisted ideology, and I was contacted by Joe and Chris about that and the actions currently taken. I appreciate their actions, and I'm back to the forum now.
I also greatly appreciate the feedback of other forum members, that have no problem over-rating my feeble knowledge by factor of 10 
Thank you again, I do look forward to the future discussions,
Tomislav

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## pbehn (May 15, 2021)

Welcome back Tomo.


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## GrauGeist (May 15, 2021)

So glad to see ya' back, Tomo!

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## fubar57 (May 15, 2021)

Welcome back Tomo

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## SaparotRob (May 15, 2021)




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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 15, 2021)

We always take these matters seriously. As moderator’s we have to find a fine line between freedom of speech and putting a halt to things. When Tomo reported the posts in question, I somehow read the wrong posts. I clicked on the link which took me to the thread, but I saw the wrong posts. I reviewed the ones I saw, and while questionable I did not feel they were sympathetic to the Nazi cause. I told this to Tomo, and closed the case.

Through this thread here, we became aware of different posts (the ones Tomo was actually referring to) and Joe kindly took care of them by editing the posts, and we are investigating it further.

We will never allow Nazi apologists here. Anyone who knows this forum’s history knows we take care of it swiftly.

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## Thumpalumpacus (May 15, 2021)

stona said:


> They are not interested in 'solid information'. If they were they would not be Holocaust deniers, flat earthers, moon landing deniers, believers in chem-trails, etc., etc. They want you to argue with them because it gives them a platform for their views outside the echo chambers in which they usually operate.



I'm not doing that with the interest of changing their bigoted minds. The reason why I post countervailing, accurate information is that there are plenty of readers who never post. Any of those lurkers who is on the fence should be able to immediately access the facts debunking the BS.

The reason I keep it brief and don't get quagmired is precisely for the reason you list, of starving them of attention. But at the same time, I will not let their claims stand; hence, short answers with links for those readers who are curious.



stona said:


> This is my personal view and of course others are free to react however they see fit. Anyone deciding to take such people on will certainly enjoy my support.



I don't criticize how others, like-minded, address these cretins, so long as I know their heart's in the right place.

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## Thumpalumpacus (May 15, 2021)

tomo pauk said:


> Hello, people,
> Moderators have decided to take another look at the issues I've found to be championing of the twisted ideology, and I was contacted by Joe and Chris about that and the actions currently taken. I appreciate their actions, and I'm back to the forum now.
> I also greatly appreciate the feedback of other forum members, that have no problem over-rating my feeble knowledge by factor of 10
> Thank you again, I do look forward to the future discussions,
> Tomislav



Hell yes!

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## Airframes (May 15, 2021)

That's great Tomo, welcome back !


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## herman1rg (May 15, 2021)

Wouldn't be the same withou you Tomo

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## Shortround6 (May 15, 2021)

tomo pauk said:


> Hello, people,
> Moderators have decided to take another look at the issues I've found to be championing of the twisted ideology, and I was contacted by Joe and Chris about that and the actions currently taken. I appreciate their actions, and I'm back to the forum now.
> I also greatly appreciate the feedback of other forum members, that have no problem over-rating my feeble knowledge by factor of 10
> Thank you again, I do look forward to the future discussions,
> Tomislav


 Welcome back,

We have a problem, can't give more than one bacon

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## Crimea_River (May 15, 2021)

Short absence and you were already missed!

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## tomo pauk (May 15, 2021)

Thank you for the friendly words, my friends

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## pbehn (May 15, 2021)

tomo pauk said:


> Thank you for the friendly words, my friends


What we need is the creator of interesting threads to create an interesting thread.

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## Zipper730 (May 15, 2021)

stona said:


> I used to think that, but then you become the victim of what the Americans call a 'Gish-Gallop'. Once upon a time I would engage such people and refute their arguments, now I simply ignore them. They are seeking a reaction as a means to further promote their theories


That's the problem, they are trying to promote their _views_ -- they aren't theories (or even hypotheses), since there's ample evidence that shows their viewpoint is nonsense.

Generally, Holocaust deniers comprise two basic groups of people

*The Knowing Liars:* They _know_ that what they are saying is nonsense, they understand that society would disapprove of it if they understand what they were doing. They actually _like_ Nazism, and see little problem with the whole genocidal aspect of it -- they just can't get any support behind it because of that whole Holocaust matter, so they seek to whitewash it out by poking any holes in the whole matter (i.e. inspiring doubt by raising questions about exact numbers, errors, and irregularities), so they can bring Nazism back!
*The Gullible/Misguided Dupes:* These are the useful idiots of the first. They actually believe them because they interpret the various claims as being valid, and believe they're trying to expose a massive miscarriage of historical injustice. Of these people, some of them realize the truth and leave, and some remain because the've invested so much in it, and/or have come to view the agenda as acceptable, at which point they becoming knowing liars.
Both see their actions as being justifiable for their own reasons, and if their positions aren't countered, they _will_ continue to spread their views, and without an opposing voice (ours), everybody will only hear them, and the first rule of propaganda is repetition. While a forum could simply ban them and put a quick halt to them, it only gets them out of our hair, but they will often continue elsewhere: Censoring them on a larger scale doesn't really work for the following reasons

*It Doesn't Change their Minds:* I didn't realize right-wing extremism was as prevalent (I wasn't oblivious to it, but saw it as a small issue) because up until between 5-10 years ago, they were basically so effectively silenced though a combination of shame and ostracism, that we simply shut them up (they also got more creative in the way they talked about the matter). The problem is that certain events occurred (due to the no-politics rule, I can't elaborate anymore), which made such extremists feel okay in expressing their views somewhat more openly in public and online. As we've seen, all it takes is a loud-mouth with power to upset the balance.
*Extremists are Made, Not Born:* With the exception of people born into families of extremists, most people that end up in extremist causes like this often are drawn in. Generally the extremists often target angry, disaffected youth since the young are often impressionable (and gullible). From there, they get to work on them, inculcating an ideology that offers people to blame for all their problems (something that's intoxicating for a person who has potentially seen nothing but grief and hardship), and with Neo-Nazism, there's also the belief that they're of a superior breed destined to rule the world: Effectively nothing's ever their fault (instilling a mentality that blame can be externalized, which provides continuous absolution), and an attitude that feeds the ego (effectively indoctrinating a narcissistic state). Censorship simply establishes a siege mentality that benefits their leadership and makes it harder to pry them away.
*Threats to Free-Speech:* Censorship has historically been a powerful tool of individuals that do not always have the public interest at heart. They rarely say that they want to censor the internet so they can keep the public in the dark like mushrooms. They either create pretexts to do so, or they use legitimate threats to start out with; then from there, expand to matters that are less legitimate. While very few people don't feel the occasional urge to silence groups of people we don't like, we aren't the ones who are going to get to decide what gets silenced and, while Neo-Nazi's are clearly dangerous, there are groups that would get censored that might actually serve the public good (such as journalists and whistleblowers).
Lately, we've become accustomed to the belief that you can't counter lies with truth, that censorship is the only option, and I think that, in most cases, we've been sold a bad bag of goods.

When it comes to a rather noxious piece of disinformation I've heard online was that a now deceased Senator, who had previously served as a naval aviator, and became a POW aboard the USS Forrestal, was responsible for the July 29, 1967 fire. The claim was that he always wanted to do a wet-start, and that triggered the firing of a Zuni rocket from an F-4 located behind him. The argument was that it was covered up because his daddy was an Admiral.

After getting sick and tired of hearing it being repeated, I spoke up: I pointed out that I read about the Forrestal fire before, and a wet-start wouldn't have caused it under the circumstances described. The OP had an image of the carrier deck, and I told them to look at the image, and noted there was no F-4 behind the aircraft and, before anybody points out that it could be air-brushed out, or could be a fake: The carrier is only 252-257 feet wide, the size of the aircraft aren't doctored, and there's just not enough room. You could do a google search for seemingly any picture of airplanes of that era on a carrier deck and you'd find the same scaling and anything, and there's just no room for an F-4 to fit behind the A-4. . . . (and everybody here knows the rest).

It silenced everybody -- I got quite a number of thumbs up.

I hope I didn't run afoul of the forum rules: My goal was to largely explain the types of people involved in holocaust denial, why countering them is important, and why censorship could be counter-productive (it didn't really make them go away, it just shut 'em up), why they were generally counter-productive, and an example of countering lies with facts that I actually did to illustrate an example.

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## fubar57 (May 16, 2021)

Zipper730 said:


> When it comes to a rather noxious piece of disinformation I've heard online was that a now deceased Senator, who had previously served as a naval aviator, and became a POW aboard the USS Forrestal, was responsible for the July 29, 1967 fire. The claim was that he always wanted to do a wet-start, and that triggered the firing of a Zuni rocket from an F-4 located behind him. The argument was that it was covered up because his daddy was an Admiral.
> 
> After getting sick and tired of hearing it being repeated, I spoke up: I pointed out that I read about the Forrestal fire before, and a wet-start wouldn't have caused it under the circumstances described. The OP had an image of the carrier deck, and I told them to look at the image, and noted there was no F-4 behind the aircraft and, before anybody points out that it could be air-brushed out, or could be a fake: The carrier is only 252-257 feet wide, the size of the aircraft aren't doctored, and there's just not enough room. You could do a google search for seemingly any picture of airplanes of that era on a carrier deck and you'd find the same scaling and anything, and there's just no room for an F-4 to fit behind the A-4. . . . (and everybody here knows the rest).



https://www.jag.navy.mil/library/investigations/USS FORRESTAL FIRE 12 AUG 69 PT 1.pdf

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## Greg Boeser (May 16, 2021)

Definitely sounds like a cover up.

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## ThomasP (May 16, 2021)

For anyone interested.

The second A-4 struck by a fragment , as mentioned at the end of paragraph 3 page 3, was McCain's aircraft.

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## FLYBOYJ (May 16, 2021)

Zipper730 said:


> When it comes to a rather noxious piece of disinformation I've heard online was that a now deceased Senator, who had previously served as a naval aviator, and became a POW aboard the USS Forrestal, was responsible for the July 29, 1967 fire. The claim was that he always wanted to do a wet-start, and that triggered the firing of a Zuni rocket from an F-4 located behind him. The argument was that it was covered up because his daddy was an Admiral.
> 
> After getting sick and tired of hearing it being repeated, I spoke up: I pointed out that I read about the Forrestal fire before, and a wet-start wouldn't have caused it under the circumstances described. The OP had an image of the carrier deck, and I told them to look at the image, and noted there was no F-4 behind the aircraft and, before anybody points out that it could be air-brushed out, or could be a fake: The carrier is only 252-257 feet wide, the size of the aircraft aren't doctored, and there's just not enough room. You could do a google search for seemingly any picture of airplanes of that era on a carrier deck and you'd find the same scaling and anything, and there's just no room for an F-4 to fit behind the A-4. . . . (and everybody here knows the rest).


 I've dealt with this on several occasions. First off a wet start on an A-4 wouldn't produce a huge fireball unless a whole bunch of fuel was dumped in the combustion chamber. You normally do a wet start after an unsuccessful first start. After proving this to some individuals, one person spoke up and said McCain was "torching" his fellow flyer as a joke by lighting up his after burner. The problem here is the A-4 don't have an AB! The pathetic end to this was a few of these people worked for the government to include the FAA!

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## Zipper730 (May 17, 2021)

FLYBOYJ said:


> After proving this to some individuals, one person spoke up and said McCain was "torching" his fellow flyer as a joke by lighting up his after burner. The problem here is the A-4 don't have an AB! The pathetic end to this was a few of these people worked for the government to include the FAA!


They should know that sort of thing, right?


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## nuuumannn (May 17, 2021)

tomo pauk said:


> Thank you for the friendly words, my friends



Tomo, sad to see you go and great to see you back, mate! I stand with everyone in saying you are extremely valued here and your opinions definitely matter, as does your vast knowledge and unique perspective. I look forward to seeing you in action on the hangar floor again soon.

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## FowellBox (May 17, 2021)

Glad to see that you are still part of this Forum Tomo.
Brian


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## fastmongrel (May 17, 2021)

I missed all this but it's depressing that I have a good idea of the perpetrator without even knowing the thread existed.

Glad you're back 

 tomo pauk


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## Wayne Little (May 17, 2021)

Don't know what happened, but glad you have reconsidered to stay with us Tomo, you are among MANY friends here mate.

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## FLYBOYJ (May 17, 2021)

Zipper730 said:


> They should know that sort of thing, right?


Of course


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## Peter Gunn (May 17, 2021)

Tomo - Glad you're still with us, man that was close, you're knowledge, even if we reduce it by a factor of 10 like you suggest is still far in advance of many "experts" I've come across.

Not here of course, you're all "Experts" here...

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## fastmongrel (May 17, 2021)

Peter Gunn said:


> Not here of course, you're all "Experts" here...



Ex means they used to be good at something
A spert is a little trickle of liquid

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## Zipper730 (May 17, 2021)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Of course


You know, I started thinking of something. If they should have known that, is there any possibility they were deliberately engaging in disinformation?


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## FLYBOYJ (May 17, 2021)

Zipper730 said:


> You know, I started thinking of something. If they should have known that, is there any possibility they were deliberately engaging in disinformation?


I think they were so caught up in the hype they didn't have time to really think the situation out or actually research what happened. I know in the post accident report there was a position map on the Forrestal that showed each aircraft, where it was parked and who the pilot was. McCain's A-4 tailpipe was clearly pointing over the side away from the deck and other aircraft.

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## fubar57 (May 17, 2021)

Aircraft position about half way down....Aircraft Carrier Photo Index: USS FORRESTAL (CVA-59)

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## Zippythehog (Jun 6, 2021)

I’ve just come across this thread. For what it’s worth, I’m still here and a great many good people are too. Democide happened, is happening and sadly, horribly, is likely to continue happening. There is no excuse-none. While Nazi Germany did commit the most infamous, they were rank amateurs.

We, rational, caring human beings must confront. Nobody gets a pass on it. There are people who will look for ways to obscure, distract and justify brutal and bloodthirsty governments. We can’t eliminate them, lest we join their evil. We can’t silence them by gagging them-because the facts must be presented each time. We must remember the victims to prevent adding to their number.
Stay in there brother, and keep pitching.

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## Graeme (Jun 7, 2021)

Keep those posts coming Tomo.

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## MiTasol (Jul 6, 2021)

I just found this thread and have two comments
Tomo - you are pure bacon, I am glad we did not lose you.
I am pleased the post that upset you was not identified. Scum like that want reactions, silence kills them.

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## pbehn (Jul 6, 2021)

MiTasol said:


> I just found this thread and have two comments
> Tomo - you are pure bacon, I am glad we did not lose you.
> I am pleased the post that upset you was not identified. Scum like that want reactions, silence kills them.


The poster edited it very quickly, that was the issue. I saw it I dont think many others did but the mods had to go into the history to find out what Tomo was talking about.


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## Reluctant Poster (Sep 21, 2021)

fubar57 said:


> Aircraft position about half way down....Aircraft Carrier Photo Index: USS FORRESTAL (CVA-59)



You can actually watch the beginning of the fire starting at 3.20

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## Glider (Sep 21, 2021)

In the FAA in the mid 70's we were shown large parts of this film and others as part of our Damage control / fire fighting course. Sobering thoughts.

We were all trained in the use of breathing apparatus and special training given in the use of when and when not to use water. Interestingly part of our training was how to use water on oil fires in very specific limited circumstances.

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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 21, 2021)

Glider said:


> In the FAA in the mid 70's we were shown large parts of this film and others as part of our Damage control / fire fighting course. Sobering thoughts.
> 
> We were all trained in the use of breathing apparatus and special training given in the use of when and when not to use water. Interestingly part of our training was how to use water on oil fires in very specific limited circumstances.


Mandatory watching when I was in the USNR. We have another thread going on this.

If you serve aboard ship in the USN you must go to firefighting and damage control school, mandated because of the Forrestal.

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## special ed (Sep 21, 2021)

A friend who flew F4Us & F6Fs off carriers in the PTO told me all personnel learned firefighting including officers. This training worked in the early 60s when a small chemical factory caught fire at night. The only structure not completely destroyed was a metal building which Herb took over firefighting control. In those days of a volunteer FD and a Civil Defense Station Wagon as ambulance which Herb drove, he used his Navy training to stop the fire in the metal building. As he told me, it was the same as a fire on ship so he used a spray to the overhead causing a cloud to smother the flames. He said later he realised the danger fighting the fire was not smart as the building would be a loss anyway and outside 55 Gallon drums were cooking off flying 50 feet into the air. But that is the way those old vets were.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Sep 21, 2021)

special ed said:


> As he told me, it was the same as a fire on ship so he used a spray to the overhead causing a cloud to smother the flames.



We were taught the same technique in USAF Fire School, and trained using a couple of hundred gallons of JP-4 in a simulator building. Straight-stream the ceiling to particulate the water, and when the droplets steam off, they expand into vapor that occupies 1,700 times the volume of the original droplet pretty forcibly, thus pushing the O² out and smothering the flames with water vapor. One cubic foot of water (7.5 gallons) becomes 1,700 cu ft of vapor -- and we were shooting 175 gpm on a straight-stream. This vapor also saturates the enclosed air and lowers the ambient temperature in most all cases, which also disrupts the chemistry of fire.

One may also rain a fog onto a POL fire in an open area, but that will usually not quench the flames but only reduce the spread and intensity by lowering the heat. I've seen others douse open JP-4 fires with plenty of fog-spray on land but I doubt that'd work well on a rolling ship where the fuel can slop around to another ignition source.

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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 21, 2021)

special ed said:


> A friend who flew F4Us & F6Fs off carriers in the PTO told me all personnel learned firefighting including officers. This training worked in the early 60s when a small chemical factory caught fire at night. The only structure not completely destroyed was a metal building which Herb took over firefighting control. In those days of a volunteer FD and a Civil Defense Station Wagon as ambulance which Herb drove, he used his Navy training to stop the fire in the metal building. As he told me, it was the same as a fire on ship so he used a spray to the overhead causing a cloud to smother the flames. He said later he realised the danger fighting the fire was not smart as the building would be a loss anyway and outside 55 Gallon drums were cooking off flying 50 feet into the air. But that is the way those old vets were.


I think during the Vietnam War firefighting training was either scaled down or eliminated as during the fire on the Forrestal some of the people putting out the fire pushed some of the foam overboard causing some of the hotspots to re-ignite. The entire Damage Control unit was killed leaving the ship in the hands of many untrained people who made many mistakes

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## SaparotRob (Sep 22, 2021)

POL fire?


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## Reluctant Poster (Sep 22, 2021)

FLYBOYJ said:


> I think during the Vietnam War firefighting training was either scaled down or eliminated as during the fire on the Forrestal some of the people putting out the fire pushed some of the foam overboard causing some of the hotspots to re-ignite. The entire Damage Control unit was killed leaving the ship in the hands of many untrained people who made many mistakes


Even well trained people make mistakes under stress and judging from the video I cannot imagine a more stressful situation. As you note the damage control unit was wiped out at the beginning. Even if the rest of the crew has been trained in damage control they are not practicing it on a regular basis and are much more likely to make mistakes.

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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 22, 2021)

Reluctant Poster said:


> Even well trained people make mistakes under stress and judging from the video I cannot imagine a more stressful situation. As you note the damage control unit was wiped out at the beginning. Even if the rest of the crew has been trained in damage control they are not practicing it on a regular basis and are much more likely to make mistakes.


This was more than a stressful mistake, sadly they weren't property trained for this and did not know what they were doing was wrong. I was in the US Navy and this was pointed out to us when we went through firefighting and damage control school. Recurrent training is now required

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## GrauGeist (Sep 22, 2021)

SaparotRob said:


> POL fire?


Petroleum
Oil
Lubricants

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## Thumpalumpacus (Sep 22, 2021)

SaparotRob said:


> POL fire?



"Petroleum/Oil/Lubricants" fire.

POLs are nasty fighting with pure water because they're all lighter than straight water. They will float on top of the water, and remain burning, and worse, the water can and will lift them above any local containment and aid the spread of the fire unless one is very careful.

AFFF (aqueous film-forming foam) lowers the specific gravity so that the mixture of foam and water will float atop any pooled liquid POLs, and because it's basically supercharged dish-soap, it will spread out, forming the film referred to in the name. In so doing, it separates the fuel from the oxygen and smothers the fire that way. 

You still have to be very careful with AFFF, specifically taking care to never, repeat never, disturb your foam blanket once you've laid it down and gotten your smother on. In artillery terms, when shooting foam you're always shooting indirect fire, never direct fire. You rain the foam down onto the blaze using a fog setting on your nozzle or turret, no straight-streams allowed. You work to grow the blanket once you've blanketed the rescue side (port side of most a/c) or other egress paths that may be present.

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## gumbyk (Sep 22, 2021)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> "Petroleum/Oil/Lubricants" fire.
> 
> POLs are nasty fighting with pure water because they're all lighter than straight water. They will float on top of the water, and remain burning, and worse, the water can and will lift them above any local containment and aid the spread of the fire unless one is very careful.
> 
> ...


As you said - it _can_ be done with straight water, and is surprising what they do use straight water for, mainly in fixed sprinkler systems. My wife designs the systems, and it is surprising what they do use water for - transformers, fuel (incidental amounts), even data centers.

Better even than AFFF is to chemically disrupt the combustion (halon type extinguishers, etc). There are saponifiers which basically turn the oil into soap.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Sep 22, 2021)

gumbyk said:


> As you said - it _can_ be done with straight water, and is surprising what they do use straight water for, mainly in fixed sprinkler systems. My wife designs the systems, and it is surprising what they do use water for - transformers, fuel (incidental amounts), even data centers.
> 
> Better even than AFFF is to chemically disrupt the combustion (halon type extinguishers, etc). There are saponifiers which basically turn the oil into soap.



I never worked with saponifiers, but we had two truck models in service at my base with 500-lb Halon systems on-board, for use on jet engines and computer facilities, mainly, as well as hand-held portable halon extinguishers for operator-use in the latter spots. We also maintained wheeled 508-lb halon exts on the flightline, with one assigned for every two aircraft. Neither engines nor computers care much for massive water-dumps, lol.

As an aside, I got called off by the assistant chief from a joint training exercise (w/ Fort Worth FD) by putting out an open fire using a 508-lb flightline portable on about 300 gallons of JP-4 ... he came over the PA in his truck and called out loud "Save some fire for the rookies, Gossett." I was an insufferable sonofabitch around the station for a couple of days after that, heh. 

I just got upwind, aimed low, and swept like an Uzi, letting the wind blow the halon down over everything. That shit's good. 1211, iirc. 1301 was for computer rooms.

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## gumbyk (Sep 22, 2021)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> I never worked with saponifiers, but we had two truck models in service at my base with 500-lb Halon systems on-board, for use on jet engines and computer facilities, mainly, as well as hand-held portable halon extinguishers for operator-use in the latter spots. We also maintained wheeled 508-lb halon exts on the flightline, with one assigned for every two aircraft. Neither engines nor computers care much for massive water-dumps, lol.
> 
> As an aside, I got called off by the assistant chief from a joint training exercise (w/ Fort Worth FD) by putting out an open fire using a 508-lb flightline portable on about 300 gallons of JP-4 ... he came over the PA in his truck and called out loud "Save some fire for the rookies, Gossett." I was an insufferable sonofabitch around the station for a couple of days after that, heh.
> 
> I just got upwind, aimed low, and swept like an Uzi, letting the wind blow the halon down over everything. That shit's good. 1211, iirc. 1301 was for computer rooms.


1211 was for hand-held, 1301 was for gas-flood. You're not allowed to use it any more other than aviation and marine
I hope you had BA on while using it - it produces toxic byproducts. The extinguishers supplied in a new C-172 a customer bought had the warning not to discharge in a room less than 120 cubic feet...
There are newer, safer products that work just as well, or better on the market.

If a computer catches fire, it's already beyond recovery, you need to protect the adjacent ones. Preventive systems are used to practically eliminate the fire threat as well - hypoxic (low oxygen) is the main one. It reduces the oxygen level to the equivalent of 10,000ft so it is still safe for people to work in.


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## Thumpalumpacus (Sep 22, 2021)

gumbyk said:


> I hope you had BA on while using it - it produces toxic byproducts.



On emergencies, we always had SCBA donned; and usually for training as well, especially after 1990 when we lost our brotha A1C James White to a nozzle failure; a bolt failed under pressure, the recoil blew the nozzle under his hood, and a lungful of halon knocked him unconcious. As he fell he opened the dry-chem side of the double-nozzle on the P-10, and inhaled a bunch of dry-chem, killing him.

Before that, on open training fires, we didn't always mask up; the drooping hood was considered sufficient. After that, we always did.



gumbyk said:


> If a computer catches fire, it's already beyond recovery, you need to protect the adjacent ones.



The idea of 1301 as I understood it was to extinguish structural fires for the building housing the computers. Back in 1991/92, our bases had computer labs crammed with the things, and 1301 was used to snuff out the building fire without damaging the systems themselves.

Of course many other buildings, my fire dept included, had computers with zero-point-zero halon coverage. But the hand-held portable 1301s and installed 1301 systems were reserved for data-processing centers with a concentration of computers for group- or wing-level ops. The rest of us had dry-chem or in worst case pressurized water exts.


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## gumbyk (Sep 22, 2021)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> On emergencies, we always had SCBA donned; and usually for training as well, especially after 1990 when we lost our brotha A1C James White to a nozzle failure; a bolt failed under pressure, the recoil blew the nozzle under his hood, and a lungful of halon knocked him unconcious. As he fell he opened the dry-chem side of the double-nozzle on the P-10, and inhaled a bunch of dry-chem, killing him.
> 
> Before that, on open training fires, we didn't always mask up; the drooping hood was considered sufficient. After that, we always did.
> 
> ...


Dry chem will permanently fry computers - corrosive and conductive

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## Thumpalumpacus (Sep 22, 2021)

gumbyk said:


> Dry chem will permanently fry computers - corrosive and conductive



Indeed, ammonium phosphate is some ugly stuff. It will also screw up anything with moving parts, like engines of any sort.

Our internal plan if the alarm room caught fire was to pull a P-10 into the Chief's stall and use its halon.


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## gumbyk (Sep 22, 2021)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Indeed, ammonium phosphate is some ugly stuff. It will also screw up anything with moving parts, like engines of any sort.
> 
> Our internal plan if the alarm room caught fire was to pull a P-10 into the Chief's stall and use its halon.


makes a good fertiliser though

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## Thumpalumpacus (Sep 22, 2021)

gumbyk said:


> makes a good fertiliser though



Dammit Jim, I'm a firefighter, not a farmer!

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## ThomasP (Sep 23, 2021)

We used 1301 Halon systems for potential magnesium alloy (and a couple of other pyrophoric alloy) fires in a few of the manufacturing plants I worked in. Most of the time it was due to the possibility of a fire starting in the fine metal chips generated by a machine tool (CNC milling/machining or lathe/turning center). In effect, if the crew was not careful to clean out the machines properly - between work on magnesium, steel, aluminum, etc - they could end up creating a thermite fire. Usually this would be due to the fine chips starting on fire, but sometimes a solid magnesium alloy blank could start on fire if the crew was not alert.

One of the companies had a serious 'thermal event' about 6 months before I started work there. A CNC machining center had started on fire, either due to the oil based coolant running low or the system becoming clogged, causing an intermittent coverage of the area being cut by the tool. This was enough to start the .75" x 2" x 2.5" magnesium alloy blank (a soon to be hard disk drive reader head arm) on fire The fire then spread to the pile of magnesium chips in the lower part of the machine, the heat then becoming high enough to start the steel sheet metal of the enclosure on fire, etc. I got to see the video of the 'thermal event'. It took only about 2.5 sec to go from no visible fire at the machine, to a flare so bright that it bloomed out the CCD camera. The fire spread to to the near machine after about 5 seconds. Fortunately there was not enough fuel for the fire to spread wide enough to start fires in any more neighboring machines. But the fire triggered the overhead sprinkler system over half the shop area (about 20 machining centers), and the vaporized metal particles and metal-oxides combustion products contaminated the entire facility (~30,000 ft2). I am not sure how much damage the Halon itself did, if any. All the personnel got out safely. 4 months and $6,000,000 (mid-1990s) later they were back up and running - with dedicated single-shot Halon systems for each machining/turning center, and the distance between machines increased from 4-5 ft to 10 ft..

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## GrauGeist (Sep 23, 2021)

Perhaps now's not the time to mention that we'd place VW type I engine cases under a stack of pallets at the beach for our bonfire parties.
The oak pallets would eventually ignite the magnesium alloy and start an epic display that could have been seen by the Space Station (and every beach ranger for miles).

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## fastmongrel (Sep 23, 2021)

I attended a fire fighting course at work once. The instructor set up the demonstration to show what happens when you use a water extinguisher on an oil fire. He must have done it thousands of times but on this day I don't know what he did but when he sprayed the fire instead of the spectacular but harmless whumpf and a small fireball shooting upwards there was a WHUMPF and instead of the flames going up it spread at ground level. We were all standing well back but the safety instructor with the fire extinguisher got singed boots.

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