# Fact or Fiction?



## Sal Monella (Sep 23, 2005)

I was reading through past posts on this site. (There's a lot of good stuff.) I saw some posts saying that that in September of 1943 when Italy surrendered, the Series 5 Italian fighters were superior to the best contemporary American, british and German fighters.

Hard to believe. fatc or fiction?


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## Glider (Sep 23, 2005)

I would say fact. The problem with Italian aircraft, wasn't that the designers couldn't design excellent aircraft. It was that the engines were so poor.
Once the latest german engines were available they could take on the best in the world.


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## JCS (Sep 23, 2005)

Glider said:


> The problem with Italian aircraft, wasn't that the designers couldn't design excellent aircraft. It was that the engines were so poor.



Yep. Also a lot of them were almost entirely hand built, so they werent around in large enough numbers to really have any effect.


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## carpenoctem1689 (Sep 24, 2005)

I wouldnt say they were superior, but easily the equals of anything they faced. I would say the MC.205 would be the best of the series five fighters, with a good top speed, very good manouverabilty inherited all the way from the MC.200, retained for the most part as the aircraft design progressed. The armament wasnt anything to be laughed at eithe, with 20mm cannon incorporated into it.


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## Jabberwocky (Sep 24, 2005)

To me the Italian, Damiler Benz powered warbirds have alway been some of my top picks during the war. They combine the long, graceful lines of a true dogfighter with very significant performance. The Reggiane. 2005, Macchi C. 205 and Fiat G.55 all appeared around the middle of 1943, by which time Italy was verging towards capitulation. 

The later Italian birds had the misfortune to fall victim to Italy's lack of production capacity and so weren't seen in great numbers. There were only 48 Re. 2005 made, 290 Macchi c.205s and 125 G.55s.

The "5" serise birds are really roughly similar to an early Spitfire IX (Merlin 61) or mid-late Me-109G (DB605 in terms of performance. Probably slightly better dogfighters than either the German or British fighter, but about 10-20 mph slower in level speed and around 1000 feet per minute behind on peak climb. Obviously the Spitfire and 109 would have the advantage in a B'n'Z style engagement, but probably lose out in a horizontal dogfight.

They all used licence built DB605As, which generated around 1475 hp. Using the same engine as a 109G2 they were some 10-15 mph faster than the German bird, lighter and more manouevrable. They were also fairly heavily armed as well, most had 3 MG151/20 and 2 Breda SAFAT 12.7 mm HMGs. 

To me the Italian fighter lose out, but just by a little. They are a touch down on power compared to contemporaries, a little down on climb and speed as well. At the point where they entered the war they were facing Merlin 66 engined Spitfire LF IXs and VIIIs as well as P-38Gs and P-47Ds. That's a TOUGH bunch of fighters to go up against. 

If you ramped up the power by a few hundered hp, then they would of been incredible. A Fiat G.55 re-engined with a DB-603 did around 420 mph, which would of made it a real threat to Allied fighter units. As they were though they were excellent birds, if just a little short of performance.


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## Parmigiano (Sep 26, 2005)

In 30'-40 Italy aeronautical research was not behind UK, Germany and USA, in some cases was even more advanced.
The fascism had put a very friendly eye on aviation, even if mainly for propaganda purposes, and funds for record breaking projects were always available.

The problem was that there was no industry to backup the research, and all top level accomplisments failed to translate in mass production aircraft. 
In global economics, the regime focused more on agriculture and transportation than on industrial growth, and Italy was far beyond the other 'powers' in terms of heavy industries.
As a fallout of this, fascism never really prepared the country for a war, the (wrong) assumption being that German Army would had been enough.

So, on one side you had the Macchi MC 702, designed for the Schneider cup that in 1929 set the speed record for prop driven seaplanes (709 kmh at sea level, still unsurpassed today), on the other side you have biplane fighters in service as main type.

As example, the Spitfire airframe and the Merlin engine were the practical translation of the Supermarine seaplanes for the Cup, while nothing was delivered in Italy from the airframe of the Macchi and his Fiat 2000 (and more) hp engine.

When the war showed the need of modern aircraft, the license built DB closed the gap for the engines, but still no factory had the industrial capability to tool up for mass production, and the fine series 5 was still a matter of craftmanship. 

Given this background, it is no wonder that the Mc205, Fiat G55 and so on were equal or better than the best celebrated fighters in pure performance, but is also no wonder that when the Germans evaluated th G55 for mass production (it was better than the contemporery Bf109) they decided not to proceed because of the construction technique and related time/costs.

Here is a link for Italian interesting projects that were stopped by the armistice
http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n1/italtwin.html

cheers


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## cheddar cheese (Sep 26, 2005)

> If you ramped up the power by a few hundered hp, then they would of been incredible. A Fiat G.55 re-engined with a DB-603 did around 420 mph, which would of made it a real threat to Allied fighter units. As they were though they were excellent birds, if just a little short of performance



Agreed. Germany actually thought about producing the G.55 after the Italian surrender, such was its performance. The G.56, the DB-603 engined version was also to be eligible. As you said though, Parm, maintenance would have been a tough one.

The maximum speed is a disadvantage, yes, but to be honest you aint always going to be flying at maximum speed. I dont really think they were short of performance in the air in any major way.

Also, why just consider series 5 fighters? I think that Ambrosini produced some of the most remarkable planes. Realising that Italian engines werent powerful enough, they build a lightweight fighter with just 490hp and it does 400mph. (SAI 207) They install a 700hp engine and its doing 425-430mph. (SAI 403) Excellent performance, excellent handling and manoeverability, and pretty good armament. They would have been tough opponents in a dogfight.


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## Parmigiano (Sep 27, 2005)

Yes CC, the SIAI 403 was a very neat project. It was conceived as an 'economic fighter' built with non-strategic material (wood) 
Performances were excellent, but to achieve it the machine was very light (nothing comes free in engineering...) and could have been too weak to sustain any battle damage. Also true that wood is a kind of 'natural composite material' and contrary to steel and alloys has an inherent capability to stop structural damage (see the Mosquito for instance)
The plane was not tried in combat, so we will never know...

The Piaggio 108 is another example of great plane, was more advanced than any other 4 engine bomber at his time and was the only decent heavy bomber project of the Axis. But they were able to build only about 70 machines...

Btw there is a little legend about it : worried for the stress for the tires in landing such an heavy plane, the engineer (Corradino d'Ascanio) tested a small 2 stroke engine fitted in the wheel disc to spin the wheel before touch down. It was not applied to the P108 (tires had improved enough to survive the landings) but after the war it became the engineering solution for the Vespa scooter. 

PS : in my previous post I wrote a 'far beyond' instead of 'far behind' ; sorry!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 27, 2005)

I would go as far to say that they were equal with advantages in some areas. I would not necessarilly say that they were superior though. The the Daimler Benz engines they deffinatly could compete with just about anything.


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## Sal Monella (Sep 27, 2005)

Parmigiano, you said that The Piaggio 108 is another example of great plane, was more advanced than any other 4 engine bomber at his time.

How waas it more advanced than the B-17?


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## Parmigiano (Sep 28, 2005)

In 1940-41 the P108 was a more advanced project than the B17, with the exception of the max ceiling limited to about 28.000 ft. (due to limitations of the Piaggio radials) 
As example it had higher paylod and the same range of the B17G (3600Km/3500Kg vs 3200km and 3200kg) and remote controlled barbettes for the defense (intruduced only later by Germans and Americans)

Like most of Italian planes was built in small numbers, and was not developed like the B17 or other planes of the more 'rich' countries, actually only the very first series saw the limited production about 150 aircrafts (the 'B' often reported stays for 'Bomber', not for mark 2)

His development (the P133) was not completed in 1943.

In summary, the same ill fate of the fighters we discussed above!

Here is some link with a brief description, I remember that the P108 was discussed in another thread (..but not which one) by people more documented than me.

http://www.avalanchepress.com/P108.php (.. inaccurate about the 'little legend' of my previous post!)

http://digilander.libero.it/avantisavoiait/Piaggio P108B.htm
(this is in Italian but has some nice pictures)

http://www.comandosupremo.com/P108.html


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## Parmigiano (Sep 28, 2005)

Edit : 
- the reported payload of B17G at 3200km range is 2700Kg, not 3200: my typing mistake


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 28, 2005)

I would agree with Parmigiano. The P108 was a marvelous design and had great potential. At the time of its development I would go as far to say it was the most advanced bomber also.


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## cheddar cheese (Sep 28, 2005)

Agreed, The P.108 was definately a plane wih potential.


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## Sal Monella (Sep 29, 2005)

So do you think the series five fighters could take a mustang? (all else being equal)


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## cheddar cheese (Sep 30, 2005)

One on one, definately.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 30, 2005)

but the -51 isn't the best plane to dogfight in  they'd have their handsful with any form of spit, particularly the XIV......


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## cheddar cheese (Sep 30, 2005)

For sure...much later plane...I wouldnt write their chances off though


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## P38 Pilot (Oct 1, 2005)

Dogfighting??? I would go with the P-51 but the Spitfire XIV was more manverable.

The P.108 did seem like a great Italian bomber but whne compared to a B-17G, it would defintely lose.


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## Sal Monella (Oct 2, 2005)

Was the Spit XIV in frontline service in Sept. 1943?


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## Gnomey (Oct 2, 2005)

No.



> The Spitfire Mk XIV entered in squadrons during 1944 and it was the first RR Griffon engined Spitfire to enter in large scale production. It had comletely redesigned airframe with new fuselage. It was powered by RR Griffon 65 or 66 engine with five bladed Rotol propeller. The first examples entered service in Europe with No. 610 Sqdn, in January 1944. Subsequently 37 RAF squadrons flew it. Spitfire Mk XIV was intented for combat at all altitudes. It succeeded well also against flying bombs (V1), destroying over 300.


From http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jjuvonen/planes/spit_14apd.html

While searching I found this comparison of the Spitfire MKXIV and an FW190A. It is quite interesting and is based on actual tests.
http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire14v190.htm


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 2, 2005)

P38 Pilot said:


> Dogfighting??? I would go with the P-51 but the Spitfire XIV was more manverable.
> 
> The P.108 did seem like a great Italian bomber but whne compared to a B-17G, it would defintely lose.



You do know that the P-51 was not the greatest dogfighter and even Bf-109s could hold there own against a P-51D right? The Spit was a much better dogfighter than the P-51.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 2, 2005)

my mistake with the .XIV date........



P-38 pilot said:


> The P.108 did seem like a great Italian bomber but whne compared to a B-17G, it would defintely lose



the B-17G was nothing special, in 1940 the P.108 was better than the B-17, which at the time was only in the C/D stage........


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## Sal Monella (Oct 2, 2005)

So by September 1943, which frontline model of the Spitfire was in existence?

Would that model have been able to take a Fiat G 55, Reggiane Re 2005 or Macchi Mc 205 in a dogfight where both pilots were of equal skill, aware of each other and starting from a position that favored neither.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 2, 2005)

I dont think so. Not much compared to the Spit in maneuvarbility. Yes I am admiting this you British blokes!


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## Sal Monella (Oct 2, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet, earlier you responded that "I would go as far to say that they were equal with advantages in some areas." to the question of if the series 5 were better than the best of their contemporaries including the spitfire.

Now you say I don't think so against the best contemporary Spitfire.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 2, 2005)

I am saying they were equal at the time with each aircraft having advantages in certain areas over the other. If you read what my post said that is what I said. Against a Spitfire I dont think it would stand a chance because the Spit was more manuevarable no matter which way you look at it. The Fw-190 I would say the same. Against the best fighters of the day it did not stand a chance but it was equal to most fighters of the time.


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## Sal Monella (Oct 3, 2005)

I haven't been able to find any information on the manueverability of these Italian fighters vs. the Spitfire except for the following:

"Experience in combat confirmed what the tests had shown, that the Folgore had lost little of the agility of the Saetta. It could still turn inside any Allied fighter including the Spitfire, which together with the P-51 was the only Allied fighter that was considered an even match."

The Folgore was the Mc-202. The Mc-205 is the same aircraft, just with a more powerful engine.

I have read elsewhere that the two were equally matched but that the spitfire had a much better armament


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 3, 2005)

Maybe like I said I believe that they were pretty equal to one another with either aircraft having advantages over the other in some areas but as I said in my last post I dont believe that it would be much of a match for a Spitfire or Fw-190. Maybe with German Engines it might have.


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## Jabberwocky (Oct 3, 2005)

Sal Monella said:


> So by September 1943, which frontline model of the Spitfire was in existence?
> 
> Would that model have been able to take a Fiat G 55, Reggiane Re 2005 or Macchi Mc 205 in a dogfight where both pilots were of equal skill, aware of each other and starting from a position that favored neither.



By September 1943 you have 3 major Spitfire types deployed in Italy. Spitfire Vb/c, Spitfire IX and Spitfire VIII. Speciality Spitfires like the Mk XII, Mk VI, Mk IX HF and Mk VII were generally limited to deployment on the Channel front. 

In terms of speed at all altitudes and rate of climb the Spitfire IX and VIII are more than a match for the 5 serise fighters, particularly the Merlin 66 engined variants. Rate of turn probably goes to the Italians, but as Fw-190 pilots will tell you 'turning doesn't win battles'. I don't know how well the smaller wings of the Italian fighters would of performed above about 20,000 feet, but most Meditteranean theatre combat was at medium-low altitude anyway. Up high, with the 2 stage MErlins, I would give the advantage to the Spitfire, particularly the VIII. 

At low level the Spitfire L.F V would of been the dominant type. This was a Mk V with clipped wingtips and a Merlin 45M, 46M, 50M or 55M running at +18lbs boost. It was used exclusively as a low level fighter with a cropped supercharger impeller and refined aerodynamics (mostly replacing the fish tail exhaust types with multi-ejector stubs and other minor changes). It produced its top speed around 6000 feet and was very useful below 10,000 feet as a knife fighter. 

If both opponents were entering the dogfight from a co-energy situation, head on, at equal altitude, I would back the Spitfire. Armament and visibility are roughly the same. A Spitfire IX or VIII climbs a little better, acclerates a little better, has a noticably better power to weight ratio than any of "5" series fighters and probably is generally better in the vertical.

A Spitfire pilot would use his better rate of climb and acceleration to build a height and energy advantage over his opponent and then proceed to make a serise of slashing high speed attacks against the Italian fighter. The Italian fighter may be able to turn inside the Spitfire at low speeds (not sure about high speeds) but that means little if your opponent is higher and faster than you. Burn all your energy in turns and your a dead duck against a faster opponent. 

In an evasive situation the Italian bird would probably be superior to the Spitfire, but I really know very little about their rate of roll, pitch stability, dive limits, strength of stick inputs, instanteous turn rates, sustained turn rates ect, ect. If I wanted to control airspace then I would choose the Spitfire over the Italian fighters.


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## Sal Monella (Oct 3, 2005)

I understand that all three of the series 5 fighters and the Mc-202 had phenominal climb rates.

http://www.aldini.it/re2005/performances.htm


Reggiane Re-2005 Sagittario

climb rate:
19,685 ft in 5 min

As for the famed Fiat G 55:

In December 1942 a technical commission of the Regia Aeronautica was invited by Luftwaffe to test some German aircrafts in Rechlin. The visit was part of a joint plan for the standardization of the Axis aircraft production. In the same time some Luftwaffe officers visited Guidonia where they were particularly interested in the performances promised by the Serie 5's. On December 9 these impressions were discussed in a Luftwaffe staff meeting and rised the interest of Goering itself.

In February 1943 a German test commission was sent in Italy to evaluate the new Italian fighters. The commission was led by Oberst Petersen and was formed by Luftwaffe officiers and pilots nad by technical personnel, among them the Flugbaumeister Malz. The Germans carried with them also several aircrafts included a Fw190A and a Me109G for direct comparison tests in simulated dogfights.

The tests began February 20. The German commission, not without a certain surprise, was very impressed by the Italian aircrafts, the G55 in particular. In general, all the Serie 5's were very good at low altitudes, but the G55 was competitive with its German opponents also in term of speed and climb rate at high altitudes still maintaining superior handling characteristics. The definitive evaluation by the German commission was "excellent" for the G55, "good" for the Re2005 and "average" for the MC205. Oberst Petersen defined the G55 "the best fighter in the Axis" and immediately telegraphed his impressions to Goering. After listening the recommendations of Petersen, Milch and Galland, a meeting held by Goering on February 22 voted to produce the G55 in Germany.

The interest of the Germans, apart from the good test results, derived also from the development possibilities they was able to see in the G55 and in the Re2005. For the Re2005 the German interest resulted in the provision of an original DB605 with the new WM injection. This engine and a VDM propeller were installed on the MM495 prototype that was acquired by Luftwaffe and tested in Rechlin. The aircraft reached 700 km/h during a test with a German pilot, but the airframe was not judged sufficiently strong for these performances.

The G55 was bigger and heavier and was considered a very good candidate for the new DB603 engine. Other visits were organized in Germany during March and May 1943 in Rechlin and Berlin. The G55 was again tested at Rechlin at the presence of Milch. Gabrielli and other FIAT personalities were invited to visit German factories and to discuss the evolution of the aircraft. The specifications of the German G55/II included the DB603 engine, five 20 mm guns and a pressurized cockpit. The suggestion of weapons in the wings, limited to one 20 mm gun for each wing, originated the final configuration of the Serie I, while the 603 engine was succesfully installed in the G56 prototypes.

As a concrete results of the German interest in the G55, the Luftwaffe acquired three complete G55 Sottoserie 0 airframes (MM91064-65-66) for evaluations and experiments giving in change three DB603 engines and original machinery for the setup of other production lines of the DB605/RA1050 RC58 I. Two of the Luftwaffe G55's remained in Turin, at the Aeritalia plants, where they were used by German and Italian engineers to study the planned modifications and the possible optimizations to the production process. Later these two were converted to Serie I and delivered to the ANR. The third one was transferred to Rechlin for tests and experiments in Germany. The DB603 engines were used to build the G56 prototypes.

The interest in the G55 program was still high after the Armistice: in October 1943 Kurt Tank, who previously personally tested a G55 in Rechlin, was in Turin to discuss about the G55 production. However, war events and the not yet optimized production process were the reasons for which the G55 program was eventually abandoned by the Luftwaffe. Early produced G55's required about 15000 manhours; while there were estimations to reduce the effort to about 9000 manhours, the German factories were able to assemble a Bf109 in only 5000 manhours.


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## Gnomey (Oct 3, 2005)

Nice info Jabberwocky!


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## Jabberwocky (Oct 3, 2005)

The information that my sources give is this:

Fiat G.55 Maximum Climb rate 3,300-3,900 feet per minute
Macchi 205- Maximum climb rate 3,900 feet per minute 
Re-2005; Maximum Climb rate 3,750 feet per minute

Spitfire Mk VIII Maximum Climb rate 4,650 feet per minute
Spitfire Mk IX Maximum Clib rate 4,700 feet per minute 

Spitfire Mk VIII (+25lbs boost) 5,580 feet per minute
Spitfire mk IX (+25lbs boost) 5,740 feet per minute

Merlin 66 engined Spitfires, which was the most common production variant, could climb to 6100 meters (20,000 feet) in slightly less than 5 minutes. 

Merlin 61 engined variants did the same climb about 5.5-6 minutes, but maintained a higher rate of climb above 25,000 feet. Maximum rate of climb was around 3,850 feet per minute.

Merlin 63 engined variants made it to 20,000 feet in around 5.5 minutes. Maximum rate of climb was about 4,000 feet per minute.


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## carpenoctem1689 (Oct 3, 2005)

From everything i have ever heard, the MC.205 could turn inside a spitfire. It was also ive heard more manoueverable in every aspect. It had decent armament of two 12.7mm machine-guns, and two 20mm cannon, not too heavy, but nothing to be scoffed at. Climb was less than a spitfire, but it could still more than hold its own.


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## Sal Monella (Oct 3, 2005)

That's my understanding too Carpenoctem. 

I also heard that prior to discovering the unacceptable amount of man hours necessary to manufacture the plane, the Germans were contemplating the G.55 as the replacement for the Me-109. The Me-109's airframe had reached its developmental apex and the G 55 was thought to have superior performance potential with the new German engines.

The G 56 was developed for the Germans. It was a G 55 with a DB 603A engine.


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## Sal Monella (Oct 3, 2005)

Gnomey posted an interesting comparison of flight tests between the FW-190A vs. Spitfire Mk V and IX.

http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire14v190.htm

Mk. V - Fw-190 is faster at all altitudes. Fw-190 has greater climb at all heights. The best speeds for climbing are approximately the same, but the angle of the FW 190 is considerably steeper. Under maximum continuous climbing conditions the climb of the FW 190 is about 450 ft/min better up to 25,000'. With both aircraft flying at high cruising speed and then pulling up into a climb, the superior climb of the FW 190 is even more marked. When both aircraft are pulled up into a climb from a dive, the FW 190 draws away very rapidly and the pilot of the Spitfire has no hope of catching it. Fw-190 can dive faster at all altitudes. Fw-190 has greater manueverability except in turning circle. Fw-190 has greater acceleration.

Mk. IX - In speed, both are roughly equal with each having a slight advantage over the other at various heights. In climb, both are roughly equal but overall, the Spitfire appears better. At 22K, the Spitfire is progressively superior. Fw-190 can dive faster at all heights. The Fw-190 is more manueverable except in turning circle. The general impression of the pilots involved in the trials is that the Spitfire Mark IX compares well with the FW 190. Providing the Spitfire IX has the initiative, it undoubtedly stands a good chance of shooting down the FW 190.

The above tests between the Fw-190A the Mk. V and IX are interesting because it was these Spitfires that were the contemporaries of the Series 5 fighters. 

The G 55 in particular was found to have performance that was notably better than the Fw-190A at all altitudes.

One could easily infer that the G 55 would have edged out the Mk V and IX Spit. (All of the 5 Series fighters could turn inside of the Spitfire.)


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## P38 Pilot (Oct 3, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> P38 Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Dogfighting??? I would go with the P-51 but the Spitfire XIV was more manverable.
> ...



I realise that. But i prefer the P-51D Mustang over anything. It wasnt as good as the Spitfire or Bf-109 but it could pack a pretty good punch.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 4, 2005)

That it could. I like the P-51D also I just think that a lot of it was a myth and based off of numerical superiority.


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## Jabberwocky (Oct 4, 2005)

Sal Monella said:


> Gnomey posted an interesting comparison of flight tests between the FW-190A vs. Spitfire Mk V and IX.
> 
> http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire14v190.htm
> 
> ...



This was a test done against a Spitfire IX with a Merlin 61. The Merlin 61 produces 1,565 hp and has a best critical altitude of around 27,000 feet.

The FW-190 outperforms it at low altitude, and is outperformed by the Spitfire IX at high altitudes. At medium altitudes there is a small advantage to the 190.

The most common Spitfire in 1943 would be a L.F. IX with either a Merlin 63/63A or a Merlin 66, which offered marked improvement below 20-25,000 feet over the Merlin 61. Both produce ~1,720 hp at a critical altitude of around 22,000 feet. Rate of climb to 20,000 feet is 5-5.5 minutes, about 1.5-2 minutes or 750-1000 feet per minute faster than the Merlin 61 engined variants Speed at low and medium altitudes is around 10 mph faster. Top speed at high altitude is down by about 5 mph.


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## Sal Monella (Oct 4, 2005)

Fiat G 55 produced 1,475 hp


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## carpenoctem1689 (Oct 4, 2005)

The germans were very interested in italian aircraft especially in 1943, because the italians produced very capable, competitive aircraft, that still had more potential. The germans looked at designs and turned them down, only because the time needed to build each one. They were clearly superior to 109s, and could still be evolved into more effective machines in time, while the 109 had reached the limit for the most part. Italian series five fighters were fast, manouverable, well armed and were more importantly, the equal or superior of anything they faced. I dont know about anyone else, but i would much rather pilot a Mc.205 in a dogfight, rather than the contemporary to the time spitfire mark.


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## Jabberwocky (Oct 4, 2005)

There was just one G. 56s produced, and it was only a prototype. It didn't fly until March, 1944 which makes it a contemporary of the Spitfire XIV and +25lbs boost cleared Spitfire L.F. IX, both of which handily outperform it. 

The G. 55 was equipped with a DB-605A engine. Maximum hp at sea level was 1,475 hp. Maximum output at rated altitude was 1,355hp at 5,700m (18,500 feet).

A Spitfire with a Merlin 66 produced more than 1500 hp at the same height, and maximum horsepower at 20-21,000 feet. It also has a slightly lighter airframe and lower loaded weight. More power + less drag should equal better performance than its opponent.

Most of the problem here is while I have very good figures for Spitfire IX performance, I have very little data for the G. 55. All I have to go on are the basic engine outputs, weights, maximum climb rates and maximum speed figures. All of these seem to give the advantage to the Spitfire.

I don't have any figures for roll, pitch or turn performance save that the G.55 could "turn inside a Spitfire". But that doesn't tell me at what speeds, altitudes and control forces it was done. The Hurricane could turn inside a Spitfire at low speed, but couldn't follow a Spitfire in high speed turns. Maybe the same is true here. Did the G. 55 outturn the Spitfire at all speed ranges or only at low or at high speed? How well did it roll at low and high speed. What were the dive speed limitations? What were the stall speeds. Did the G.55 have gentle or violent stall behaviour? Did the plane give stall warnings?

Ideally we need to see a manual or performance monogram to make a fair comparison. Otherwise we are just relegated to guess-work.


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## carpenoctem1689 (Oct 4, 2005)

The MC.205 was faster than the G.55 and the RE.2005 at altitudes below 26,000 feet, but above that it lost manouevarbility and speed quickly. It carried the lightest armament of the three, with only two fifty cal, and two 20mms, but keep in mind the MC.205 was only intended as an interim aircarft. The MC.205N-1 would have been the definitive aircraft had castoldi had the time, with a larger wing, and a nose mounted 20mm, and four wing mounted fifty cal guns. It was to be named the Orione. It would have been better than the Veltro, but required considerable retooling to produce, and was abandoned due to the war situation.


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## Sal Monella (Oct 5, 2005)

Flight test between Spitfire Mk IX and Me-109G.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 5, 2005)

Hmm interesting link there.


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## Gnomey (Oct 5, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Hmm interesting link there.


Yes. Good link Sal Monella


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## Parmigiano (Oct 5, 2005)

Here is an interesting link about the Macchi 205, scroll down for the technical drawings.
http://www.museoscienza.org/english/aereo/mc205.html

Note trhat the left wing was 20cm (8") longer than the right, to partially compensate the propeller torque 

btw, is there any documentation/report related to the comparative test run by the Luftwaffe? All I could read was Uk or USA sources, but many Allied planes were captured by the LW and I suppose they run extensive tests: would be interesting to cross-compare the outcoming.


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## Gnomey (Oct 5, 2005)

Interesting link Parmigiano!


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 5, 2005)

I never knew the wing lengths were different...interesting!


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## Parmigiano (Oct 5, 2005)

Here are the quoted drawings, the 3rd shows the different size of wings and ailerons

http://digilander.libero.it/enniotarantola/TarantolavelC205Disegni.htm


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 5, 2005)

Great site! 8)


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## Sal Monella (Oct 5, 2005)

The Germans were reknown for their record keeping so I would have to say yes, there are records of the tests ... somewhere.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 5, 2005)

Ive been looking forever and a day but I havent found anything yet.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 6, 2005)

Sal Monella said:


> The Germans were reknown for their record keeping so I would have to say yes, there are records of the tests ... somewhere.



The problem is getting to them. More than likely the test records were taken by the allies and if a few still exist in Germany they are either in private hands or in the Bundes Archive and pretty much unatable.


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## Jabberwocky (Oct 6, 2005)

It seems that lots of German records were destroyed in the Allied bombings of German cities and the Soviet ground advance through Eastern Germnay.

I think it was Max Hastings that calculated that only between 7-12% of German documents had survived the war. However, the collapse of the Iron Curtain has been a real boon to Western historians as there are tens of thousands of documents in russian archieves that are still waiting to be examined and translated (either from German or Russian).

More likely would be to find the Italian flight tests of their planes.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 7, 2005)

That might be easier.


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## Parmigiano (Oct 7, 2005)

Italians had a few Allied aircraft captured, but I am not aware of comparison test with local machines.
I remember there was a captured P38, that was used operationally by Italian air force until the tanks corroded because of the German synthetic gasoline, but I suspect the magazine was left at my ex, so it will be very difficult it has survived the big clean up.
When I'm back home I'll try to contact an old time friend who is very documented about Regia Aeronautica.


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 7, 2005)

Parmigiano said:


> Italians had a few Allied aircraft captured, but I am not aware of comparison test with local machines.
> I remember there was a captured P38, that was used operationally by Italian air force until the tanks corroded because of the German synthetic gasoline, but I suspect the magazine was left at my ex, so it will be very difficult it has survived the big clean up.
> When I'm back home I'll try to contact an old time friend who is very documented about Regia Aeronautica.



There was also the guy in the captured P-38 who was shooting down allied bombers.

"One of the more interesting stories in the MTO was of the phantom P-38, which was causing trouble for many crippled bombers. Beginning on June 4, 1943, a crippled bomber was coming back from a mission against the island of Pantelleria. The crew was considering bailing out of their bomber when they spotted a P-38 coming closer. They immediately relaxed knowing it was coming to their aid. The crew continued to dump extra weight from the aircraft, including the guns and ammunition. Before the crew realized what happened, the P-38 erupted in gunfire and destroyed the B-17. The only survivor was the pilot, Lt. Harold Fisher. Fisher was rescued and was the target of fury from the fighter pilots by suggesting it was a friendly P-38 that shot them down. 

Several weeks before Lt. Fisher's ordeal, a P-38 pilot was low on fuel and was lost. He actually made an emergency landing just outside of Sardinia. The pilot was captured before he was able to destroy his aircraft. Italian pilot, Lt. Guido Rossi came up with the idea of using this P-38 against the American bombers. Rossi's strategy was to wait until the bombers made their attacks. Rossi would then take off and scout around for stragglers. He actually used this technique to shoot down several bombers. Until Lt. Fisher, no other crews survived to tell of the P-38 shooting them down. The American commanders were under the assumption that these missing bombers just did not make it back just as many before them. Nobody thought a friendly aircraft was the cause. 

After Fisher told his story, bombers crews were alerted to look for a lone P-38, which was posing as a friendly. Fisher came up with the idea of using a decoy B-17 to attract Rossi. Fisher's idea was approved and he took off in the experimental YB-40 gunship. This was simply a modified B-17, which had more armor and guns. He flew several missions lagging behind the rest of the formations, but never encountered Rossi. Intelligence was being gathered and the Allies finally learned the identity of the pilot. They also learned that his wife was living in Allied occupied Constantine. An artist actually used a picture of his wife to paint a nose art picture on Fisher's bomber, and included her name, Gina. On August 31, a B-17 raid struck Pisa. Fisher was flying among the bombers, and was actually damaged by enemy fighters. He recovered at a low altitude and had to feather two engines. Before lone, a lone P-38 was approaching and the crew was on high alert. Rossi, using very good English, contacted Fisher, just as he did on previous occasions. Rossi immediately noticed the nose art on the aircraft and spoke with Fisher. Fisher was still uncertain the pilot was Rossi and was chatting with Rossi normally. Fisher decided to bait this pilot to see if it was Rossi or not, and began talking about Gine and her location in Constantine. When Fisher was describing intimate details of their "relationship", Rossi lost his cool. He peeled off and began his attack. Fisher ordered all guns to open up on this P-38, and Rossi had to peel off trailing smoke. Rossi intended to ram the bomber, but began breaking up and could not maintain flight. He was able to ditch in the water and survived. Rossi was later picked up and taken prisoner. Fisher was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross medal for his efforts. Fisher would survive the war, but was killed in a transport accident during the Berlin Airlift. Incidentally, Rossi was one of the mourners at his funeral."


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## Gnomey (Oct 7, 2005)

Interesting post FBJ!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 7, 2005)

There were also several captured B-17's that were flown by KG200 including the aircraft Wulfe Hound that were sited by allied bomber formations. The USAAF was really worried that they would use the planes to infiltrate there bomber formations and then attack the formations with guns and rockets.


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## Parmigiano (Oct 7, 2005)

Yup Flyboy, 

this story was mentioned in that item, but if I well remember was for a big percentage dismissed as fantasy, and the reality was a more 'boring' report of a captured aircraft, briefly used in operations and finally grounded for maintenence issues.

I read it several years ago, and the only thing that I clearly remember is that the operations of the P38 were stopped when the fuel tanks were not safe anymore, I don't trust my memory for ther details.


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## SM79Sparviero (Oct 7, 2005)

> After Fisher told his story, bombers crews were alerted to look for a lone P-38, which was posing as a friendly. Fisher came up with the idea of using a decoy B-17 to attract Rossi. Fisher's idea was approved and he took off in the experimental YB-40 gunship. This was simply a modified B-17, which had more armor and guns. He flew several missions lagging behind the rest of the formations, but never encountered Rossi. Intelligence was being gathered and the Allies finally learned the identity of the pilot. They also learned that his wife was living in Allied occupied Constantine. An artist actually used a picture of his wife to paint a nose art picture on Fisher's bomber, and included her name, Gina. On August 31, a B-17 raid struck Pisa. Fisher was flying among the bombers, and was actually damaged by enemy fighters. He recovered at a low altitude and had to feather two engines. Before lone, a lone P-38 was approaching and the crew was on high alert. Rossi, using very good English, contacted Fisher, just as he did on previous occasions. Rossi immediately noticed the nose art on the aircraft and spoke with Fisher. Fisher was still uncertain the pilot was Rossi and was chatting with Rossi normally. Fisher decided to bait this pilot to see if it was Rossi or not, and began talking about Gine and her location in Constantine. When Fisher was describing intimate details of their "relationship", Rossi lost his cool. He peeled off and began his attack. Fisher ordered all guns to open up on this P-38, and Rossi had to peel off trailing smoke. Rossi intended to ram the bomber, but began breaking up and could not maintain flight. He was able to ditch in the water and survived. Rossi was later picked up and taken prisoner. Fisher was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross medal for his efforts. Fisher would survive the war, but was killed in a transport accident during the Berlin Airlift. Incidentally, Rossi was one of the mourners at his funeral."
> _________________



A heroic exciting tale , I would like it were true bit it is unfortunately a legend.
A legend is not necessarily a lie.

Colonel Tondi, one of the best italian pilots really attacked some B24s with a captured P38 with white cross on the tail and fascio on the wings-it was not a treachery attack- One bomber was shot down.The corrosive effect of the bad italian fuel irreparably damaged tanks and pipes so the fighter could not be used for further actions.I myself think that fuel was not so bad , italian technicians in reality had troubles with the lubrification of the turbochargers that were nearly unknown in Italy in 1943. Italian fighters never faced an YB-40, it was better for USAF airmen.The idea of a "flying escort cruiser" had never been successful, YB-40 had serious troubles in keeping the same ceiling and speed as conventional B-17 bombers for the extra-weight of machine guns and ammunitions.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 7, 2005)

Hmm interesting. Good info.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 8, 2005)

what i don't get is why the hell did they make the YB-40 carry a full payload?? no wonder it didn't work with that weight- whenever they added weight to a lanc they took that weight away from the payload it makes sence to do it that way.........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 8, 2005)

There were actually 2 P-38s that were known to land into Luftwaffe/Italian hands. One of them is the one that you mentioned above that was flwon by Italian Col Tondi. The other was a Lightning F-5E serial number 44-23725 and was flown by 2nd Lt. Martin J. Monti in Pomigliano with the 354th Air Service Squadron. 2nd Lt. Monti used the aircraft to defect to the Germans on 13 Oct. 1944. He was the only USAAF fighter pilot to defect) He landed the plane and Milan-Lonate Airfield at 1500 hours. 12 days later it was repainted in Luftwaffe markings and handed over to the Germans and was given the ID of T9+MK and used by 2./Versuchsverband Ob.d.L (Zirkus Rosarius). 

Later in May 1945 the aircraft was recaptured by the Allies at Schongau, Germany. Monti was also captured by the Americans in May 1945 in Milan, Italy and was court-martialled and served prison time.

I got this info from a book on KG200 that I am reading. I will try and start a thread on the allied aircraft flown by them on Monday.


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## Jabberwocky (Oct 8, 2005)

Just thinking of what would of been potential adversaries for the '5 serise' Italian fighter;

A working list for June-August would be;

Supermarine Spitfire Vb
Supermarine Spitfire Vc
Supermarine Spitfire L.F. Vb/c (clipped wings, cropped impeller, Merlin 45m, 50m, 55m)
Supermarine Spitfire F. IX Merlin 61
Supermaine Spitfire L.F IX Merlin 63A/66 (Some with clipped wing tips)
Supermarine Spitfire VIII Merlin 66
Supermarine Seafire I/III
Hawker Hurricane Mk IIc
Hawker Hurricane Mk IId/IV

Curtiss P-40F/L (Packard Merlin engines, Commonwealth designation Kittyhawk II)
Curtis P-40P-40K/M (Allison engines, K was a low alt version, M was medium-high alt, Commonwealth designation Kittyhawk III)
Curtis P-40N (Lightened structure, less fuel, reduced armour, better performance)
Grumman Wildcat F4F-3, F4F-4, FM-1, FM-2
Lockheed P-38G/H 
Republic P-47C
North American P-51A Mustang/ A-36A Apache


Anybody think of any others?


At low altitudes the Spitfire L.F. V and the FM-1/2 would be the real worries. Both at very nimble. FM-1s and 2s had a great kill ratio against the Japanese single seaters.

Still, the Mediterranean was all about medium altitudes; say 14-20,000 feet. 

Contenders here are the Spitfire IX and VIII, the P-38 and the P-51.

The P-51A was supposedly the most nimble of all the Mustangs, better than a Spitfire V in some respects. It reportedly was also the most pilot friendly of the line. The Allison gives it reasonable power at 15,000 feet. Armament is a bit of a mixed bag; 4 Hispanos in the MK 1A, 4 .50s and 4 .303s in the Mk.1, just 4 .50s in the P-51A but six in the A-36.

The P-38s have good speed, good firepower, great climb and reacted will to the dryer, warmer weather of the Mediterranan. Problems with compressability dont really show up below 20,000 feet and their superior dive means that they can just run away if they get into too much trouble .

Spit IX/VIII had really similar performance to the Italian birds. Too close to call here really. I give it to the Spitfires, but only because I love Brit stuff.


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## wmaxt (Oct 8, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> what i don't get is why the hell did they make the YB-40 carry a full payload?? no wonder it didn't work with that weight- whenever they added weight to a lanc they took that weight away from the payload it makes sence to do it that way.........



They carried no bombs just ammo and guns. They were fine going in but once the others bropped their bombs and the YB-40s still had nearly gross weight was when the problem showed up. The YBs were a last ditch attempt at self escorting bombers. 

Remember self escorting bombers were pitched as far back as 1930 and ALL high ranking AAF people staked their reputations on it, until the US Congress started asking why there were no fighter escorts in '43 did they bow to the obvious and inviteable. it's also why the appearence of the P-51B with long range capability was the saviour, had the P-38s real record been shown they would have been before Congress explaining why a second source had never been started for it. Then they would have been fired, at the very least.

wmaxt


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 9, 2005)

Good post there Jabberwocky. I think that would be the main contenders for the 5 series.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 9, 2005)

Yep. Id give to the Italian's though, although there is no test data at the moment instinct tells me they would be far more manoeverable than the Spits.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 9, 2005)

Ofcourse you would say that. You think you are Italian!


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 9, 2005)

We may be going on holiday to Italy on my study leave next year if I get my way. Now, which part do I choose...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 9, 2005)

Go to Tuscany. Beautiful area and the wine is wonderful!


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 9, 2005)

Nah, I was thinking perhaps Modena or Milan


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 9, 2005)

Have you been to Tuscanny? If not go there!


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## Gnomey (Oct 9, 2005)

Has he been to Italy...?


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 9, 2005)

For about 5 or 10 mins.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 9, 2005)

LOL. Me and my wife go to Italy regularly. Last time though was before I went to Iraq back in Dec 2003. We went to Rome for a week and then went to Pisa and Florence. We usually go about every year though. Not this year though. We have allready done to many trips by going to Washington DC and South Carolina for a couple of weeks and then to the Dominican Republic for 9 days. We will be going to Zurich, Switzerland this December though.


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## Gnomey (Oct 9, 2005)

Thought so....


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## Parmigiano (Oct 9, 2005)

Found this quick reference in a long and interesting inteview to Italian ace Luigi Gorrini, talking about his war from 1940 to 1945. 

It seems there was another pilot who was riding a captured P38

D. Quindi a difendere Roma non c'erano che una sessantina di aerei? 
R. Sì, c'eravamo solo noi con in più qualche aereo della notturna a Centocelle, ma poca roba. C'era Rotondi che volava con un Lighting che era stato catturato agli Americani e momenti lo buttavo giù io, sta testa di cavolo...

[about defense of Rome, 1943]
Q. So in defense of Rome there was only about sixty airplanes?
A. Yes, there was only us [III Stormo, with Macchi 202 and some Bf109]plus some nightfighter in Centocelle, but very few. There was Rotondi who was flying with a captured Lightning, and I nearly shot him down, that asshole of a guy... [note: 'testa di cavolo' can be translated with 'asshole', but is to be intented in a friendly and sympathetic view]

Full interview is here, for those who understand Italian (maybe if somebody is interested I could translate it in a lonely dark night..)
http://www.italia-rsi.org/farsianr/gorrini.htm#gorrininterv

PS: CC, if you will finally decide for Milano let me know and I'll PM you my cell phone: maybe if schedules will fit we can have a drink (..soda for you!)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 10, 2005)

Interesting interview there...cool.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 10, 2005)

Hehe soda! Nah, Ill have a vodka or something, parents permitted  Sounds good though Parm, I still have to convince my folks on the idea (They wanna go shoddy spain AGAIN...fed up with bloody Spain.) Its my study leave so ill go wherever I damn want! 

Cool interview BTW 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 11, 2005)

You should also think about heading over the Carribean then. The Dominican Republic was beautiful when I went in August. Great place to relax and party.


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