# 5 Series Italian Fighters -- No Respect



## DAVIDICUS (Feb 24, 2005)

Macchi MC 205 Veltro - Became operational in June 1943

Fiat G55 Centauro - Became operational in September of 1943

Regianne RE 2005 Sagittario - Became operational in May of 1943

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Obviously, these fighters were produced in tiny quantities and saw very limited action. Italy was effectively out of the war when the other large allied and axis players were starting to refine and hone their fighters into really impressive machines. 

At the point in the war when these aircraft came onto the scene, how do you think they compared with the best fighter aircraft of the U.S.A., Britain, Germany and Japan?


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 24, 2005)

They compared extremely well...they could certainly compete with the other countries machinery at the time, and were probably better than them...they were certainly extremely capable aircraft 8)


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## DAVIDICUS (Feb 25, 2005)

No one else interested in this topic? Like I said, the Italian fighters don't get any respect.

I understand that all three of these fighters were as good if not better than the vaunted P-51 in a dogfight and were better than the ME-109's and FW-190's of the same period.


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## Udet (Feb 25, 2005)

Of course the topic can be interesting.

Particularly the Regianne RE 2005 was in fact a very interesting and totally capable design.

If i recall correctly only a fistful of the type got produced.

I do not think there is such a thing like no respect towards italian aircraft designs; the Regia Aeronautica as well spawned some superb pilots such as Adriano Visconti.


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 26, 2005)

Adriano Visconti was a superb pilot. Something like 18 of his 26 kills were in the Macchi MC.200.

The late war Italian fighters were indeed superb. Like Udet said, the Re-2005 was particularly good.

I think only about 150 MC.205's were produced...but the served long after the war with several countries.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 26, 2005)

and of those 150 how many saw combat??


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 26, 2005)

All of em...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 26, 2005)

you're sure??


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 26, 2005)

Yep...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 26, 2005)

all of them?? where did you get this little gem of info??


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 26, 2005)

I cant remember...probably comandosupremo or such like


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 26, 2005)

sorry but i'm a bit skeptical of that...............


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 26, 2005)

I dont know why...

They werent all used by the Italians, some were used by the Luftwaffe as well...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 26, 2005)

well over a thousand Me-262s were produced, i read that only 300 actually saw service, my point is not all plane that are made see service.........


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 26, 2005)

I know that, however all 150 or so MC.205's were made at about the same time, and this was 2 years prior to the wars end, so its quite concievable that the were all utilised...

And hell most of em survived the war too...


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## kiwimac (Feb 26, 2005)

What can I say, I LIKE Italian aircraft. They were the japanese of Europe, their aircraft were underarmed but as manoeuverable as all hell. The MC200, f'r instance, had a better turning circle than ANY other european aircraft except for biplanes! The Fiat G.50 was about the same.

Italian bomber crews flew missions over England during the battle of Britain Fiat Biplanes flew with 'em!

Courage!

Kiwimac


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 27, 2005)

Profiles Fiat G-55 y Mc-205 compilated in Word.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 27, 2005)

i thought the RA only launched one mission over england?? that's not courage to me.............


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 27, 2005)

kiwimac said:


> What can I say, I LIKE Italian aircraft. They were the japanese of Europe, their aircraft were underarmed but as manoeuverable as all hell. The MC200, f'r instance, had a better turning circle than ANY other european aircraft except for biplanes! The Fiat G.50 was about the same.
> 
> Italian bomber crews flew missions over England during the battle of Britain Fiat Biplanes flew with 'em!
> 
> ...



Too damn right! 8) Italian planes were superb 8)


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## KraziKanuK (Feb 27, 2005)

Don't forget the Italian torpedo bombers. They had good stats.

There was a combat test flight between a 109 and a Italian fighter and the Itie fighter gave it a tough time. (can't remember the details though)


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 28, 2005)

Italian Torp Bombers (namely the SM79) were right up there with the best, if not the best...


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## mosquitoman (Feb 28, 2005)

Yep but I'd still take a Beau for torpedo missions. Italian planes at the end of the war were good but like the Germans and Japanese they were swamped by massive numbers of Allied planes


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 28, 2005)

Naw I think id choose the SM.79 over the Beau, the Sparviero could carry 2 torpedoes


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 28, 2005)

I think the best italian plane of ww2 is the Fiat G-55 centauro. The combination of the italian design and the engine technology of the Germany give as result a very fine figther.


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## mosquitoman (Feb 28, 2005)

Definitely, it was the German engines that made all the difference. Italian could design great planes but when it came to engines, they were rubbish


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 28, 2005)

I wouldnt say rubbish, they just found getting to power out of them difficult...

I say the Re-2005 was better than the G.55 8)


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## KraziKanuK (Feb 28, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> I wouldnt say rubbish, they just found getting to power out of them difficult...
> 
> I say the Re-2005 was better than the G.55 8)



Though not a fighter the Macchi MC72 held the absolute speed record for almost 5 years.






Italian a/c pics. http://www.finn.it/regia/html/fra_le_due_guerre.htm


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 28, 2005)

Ah, that must have been a competitor in the Schneider trophy in the 30's...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 28, 2005)

yes, before we won it outright.............

and i would rather torp. bomb in a beau than a Sparviero, so what if you only get one chance, atleast you can fight your way there and back.............


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 28, 2005)

Damn Supermarine S6/S6B... 

But the Sparrow has more guns, is only a little slower, and hey, you get Fiat G.50 or MC.200 escorts


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 28, 2005)

but did they have the range to follow the bomber out and back?? you should know that defensive guns are normally pretty useless when you're under attack, moreso as the .79 didn't have turrets as such.....


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 28, 2005)

The range of the SM.79 was about 1200miles, about 700miles for the fighters...


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## mosquitoman (Feb 28, 2005)

No diversionary fighters moving the flak away from the torpedo bombers then


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 28, 2005)

The Reggiane 2005 was other of the DB-605 club but was little more heavy, and in my opinion les slender in appareance.

Anyway it was a good looking plane.











In May of 1943, the first Sagittarios entered service with the Regia Aeronautica. The first prototype and several of the zero series aircraft were used operationally by the 362a Squadriglia, 22o Gruppo at Naples-Capodichino starting in May 1943, being used to defend Rome and Naples. The squadron had developed a rather daring method of attacking Allied B-17s which involved diving head-on with all guns blazing, then flipping the aircraft over on its back and diving away at the last minute.The Reggiane had good behaviour in close dogfight and , according to General Minguzzi, who flew both Re 2005 and Spitfire, was even better than the Spit in tight turns and handling.The operative life of the Sagittario was concluded by the Armistice , that came in the September 1943. 

There was a proposal of twin boom long range fighter.
airplane based of Re-2005


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 1, 2005)

I think the Re-2005 could also carry about 2000lbs worth of ordanance...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 1, 2005)

that i'd like to see........


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## Chocks away! (Mar 1, 2005)

KraziKanuK said:


> Don't forget the Italian torpedo bombers. They had good stats.
> 
> There was a combat test flight between a 109 and a Italian fighter and the Itie fighter gave it a tough time. (can't remember the details though)


 I believe it was a Fiat G55 , also found to be a match for the fw 190 a


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 1, 2005)

What was the deal with the Fiat G.56 and I think G.57 then? Just upgraded G.55's or what?


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 1, 2005)

Heres a little something for you people who think the Italians were useless cowards who didnt know how to fight a war...

Not really on topic, but I just wanna prove a point...



> RUSSIA
> 
> August - Russians near Serafimovich launch a counterattack against the Italians holding the Don River in the hope of holding back the advances to Stalingrad. The Italians were outnumbered yet told to stand their ground and fight to the end. They eventually beat back the Russian tanks with Molotov cocktails. The battle in Serafimovich cost the Italians 1,700 men, but captured were 1,600 Russian POW's and many small arms.
> 
> ...



8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 2, 2005)

and how many Italians was it surrendered to a british force several time smaller than themselfs??


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 2, 2005)

I dont know...how many was it? Will you actually be bothered to provide the information along with a source?


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## KraziKanuK (Mar 2, 2005)

LOL, lanc spamming again.[]

CC, yes there was a large number of Italians that surendered. This was before the Germans got involved in NA.

1940

13th September - Italian forces invade Epypt. Halted at Sidi Barrani.

9th December - British offensive begins. Torbruk captured. Italians collapse and retreat.

1941

7th February - Successive victories for Allies with 130, 000 Italians captured in two month offensive. 

12th February - Erwin Rommel arrives in North Africa in command of the Afrika Corps to support collapsing Italian Army.

http://www.topedge.com/panels/ww2/na/noframe.html


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 2, 2005)

Thanks, I do actually know about this, I did actualy want the lanc to provide the information and the surce though because he never ever does 

Thanks anyway though 8)


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## KraziKanuK (Mar 2, 2005)

CC, did you really expect him to?


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 2, 2005)

No.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 3, 2005)

good.......


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 3, 2005)

This is a beautiful plane, Fiat G.56..







And I know I only just changed my sig, but this is bound to find a way beneath my posts sooner or later...

Actually no it wont, because the thumbnail is all that works...Damn sites that dont exist...

It was a Fiat G.50 on a sandy runway with the engine running, blowing up a load of sand behind it...looked great...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 3, 2005)

hehe check out the new siggy...........


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 3, 2005)

Its not Axis enough


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## mosquitoman (Mar 3, 2005)

Still good though


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 3, 2005)

Meh  Would be better with 3 swords on the wind or the Luftwaffe sign...

Speaking of Captured British Bombers, I know what I might have as a next siggy


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## mosquitoman (Mar 3, 2005)

Another one already?


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 3, 2005)

I like to plan ahead


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 4, 2005)

whereas it's tradional for me to have the same siggy for several months, i believe this is only my forth, EVER!!!


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 4, 2005)

Yes, it is. You need an avatar change too...


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 13, 2005)

Profiles from Fiat G-55, including one belong to Argentine Air force.


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 13, 2005)

Nice 8) It looks best in the darker Luftwaffe colours.


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 13, 2005)

Looks better with the skyblue and white rosette for me  

G-55 special versions:




[/list]


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 13, 2005)

apart from the one with the torp what's so specail about them??


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 13, 2005)

Well one is a two seat trainer...


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 20, 2005)

The last Biplane figther:

Fiat CR-42.







Reflector sight, interesting device for a biplane.






Both scaned form private book.


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## DAVIDICUS (Mar 21, 2005)

That CR 42 with the DB 601 has got to be the sexiest biplane of all time.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 22, 2005)

hey the swordfish's pretty damned hot........


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## DAVIDICUS (Mar 22, 2005)

Surely you jest, and yes, I'm calling you Shirley.

Comparing the Falco to the Swordfish is like comparing a voluptuous supermodel to an English grandmother with bad teeth and a four pound goiter on her neck.

Just look at that profile.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 22, 2005)

not true but still funny.........


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## DAVIDICUS (Mar 22, 2005)

Aesthetic Comparison. (Those prone to nausea should just scroll down to the set of Falco pictures.)

Fairey Swordfish





CR.42 Falco


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 22, 2005)

Swordfish isnt ugly but its far from pretty.

I prefer CR.42 with the radial, the DB601 doesnt do it any justice.


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## DAVIDICUS (Mar 22, 2005)

I think all that cheddar has gone to your head. Not ugly but far from pretty? We lawyers refer to that as "a distinction without a difference."


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 22, 2005)

Ah to hell with it, its ugly


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## mosquitoman (Mar 22, 2005)

I still prefer the Stringbag for looks


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## DAVIDICUS (Mar 22, 2005)

Ah, yes, the "Stringbag."






The nickname truly captures the essence of the beauty exhibited by the Swordfish.


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## mosquitoman (Mar 22, 2005)

It is beautiful, it's character gives it it's beauty- just like the Walrus looks good


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 23, 2005)

No, the Walrus does NOT look good! 

What made the Swordfish worse was when when they enclosed the cockpit, and called it the "Albacore"


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## DAVIDICUS (Mar 23, 2005)

That's because when they enclosed the cockpit, they realized that that swordfish smell was actually tuna.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 23, 2005)

ok i'll admit the albacore's ugly but there's no way the swordfish's ugly.........


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## Jank (Mar 29, 2005)

Those Italians sure build nice looking planes. Good performers too.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Mar 29, 2005)

Oh, I don't know - I prefer the chromed seaplane myself... 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 29, 2005)




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## cheddar cheese (Apr 5, 2005)

Jank said:


> Those Italians sure build nice looking planes. Good performers too.



Now, heres a guy who knows what hes talking about 8)


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 8, 2005)

Another biplane fighter.

Fiat CR.556, Engine Hispano-Suiza 12Xbr of 600 hp , armament 3 x 7,7mm plus 2 x 30kg bombs.






www.warbirds.jp


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 8, 2005)

oh my


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 8, 2005)

What? Its not that unconventional.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 8, 2005)

i never said it was, all i had to do was look at those stats


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 8, 2005)

Why? The stats are respectable.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 8, 2005)

no they're not!!


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 8, 2005)

For a plane that was probably designed in the early to mid thirties theyre fine.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 9, 2005)

it looks to be of post-1935 design to me........


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 9, 2005)

CB, you have anymore information on it? I can only find the site you provided but its all in Japanese and I cant read it very well.


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 9, 2005)

Well....the same thing is happen to me.


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 9, 2005)

Dang. I reckon Kiwimac will know. Where is he when you need him...


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 9, 2005)

This is the proper page but off course the problem is the same


http://www.warbirds.jp/kakuki/kyosaku/15ki/cr_556.html

others design, http://www.warbirds.jp/kakuki/kyosaku/sakuki15.html


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 15, 2005)

More pictures of italian fighters.

Reloading the 12,7 mm Bredas in a MC-200, 300 rpg.








Checking some Fiat G-50.







the BD-601 powered Reggiane Re-2001 Ariete.


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## BombTaxi (Apr 16, 2005)

While it seems traditional to slag off Italian military prowess, it shouldnt be forgotten that the Italians produced what were basically potent airframes let down by poor armament and poor powerplants. I firmly believe that if Italy had stayed in the war on the Axis side, they would have been able to solve those problems. They were already producing fighters with German engines, swap 2x 12.7mm MGs for 2x MG131s and 2x MG/FFs and you've got a powerful fighter which would be a real handful for the allies. Added to the German aircraft already present in the MTO, the RA could have posed a real menace to allied airpower.


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## Wildcat (Apr 17, 2005)

Hi guys I thought I would add a few photo's of a Fiat G59-b i took at Caboolture airshow a few years ago. Such a beautiful machine. Hope you like!


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 17, 2005)

Wildcat; CB; great pics! 8)

BombTaxi, I agree with what youre saying here are the stats to the Reggiane Re-2005 from 1943. This would mix it with anything the allies could offer.



> Engine:
> One 1,475 hp Daimler-Benz DB 605A-1 V-12 inline liquid-cooled piston.
> 
> Dimensions: Span: 36 ft 1 in / 11 m.
> ...


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 19, 2005)

Check this MC-202 folgore with an experimental radiator, pretty close to P-40... isn t?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 20, 2005)

well, yes it does


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 26, 2005)

Another italian fighting crafts.


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## Aggie08 (Apr 27, 2005)

Does anyone have pics/info on Italian bombers, I don't know much about them...  To be honest I never heard of any bombing missions Italy performed, I was surprised when I read they bombed Britian if only once.


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## mosquitoman (Apr 27, 2005)

They had the CANT.1007, SM.79 and I can't remember the other one.
Oh, and the Piaggio.108


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 27, 2005)

More pics.

SM-79







"Merry christmas"






The squadron "Falchi delle Baleari" (Hawks of Baleares) over the Tarragona harbour, Spain 1938.







SM-82.







Piaggio P-108.


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## Sal Monella (Apr 27, 2005)

That bottom four engine plane is pretty big. How did it compare with allied foiur engine jobs?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 27, 2005)

wow great pics........

and that four engined plane at the bottom is a Piaggio P.108, the only 4 engined bomber to see Italian service, although only in VERY few numbers, and whilst CC will not agree with me, it did not stand up well against the allied 4 engined heavies...........


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## Sal Monella (Apr 27, 2005)

How so? How did it compare with the B-17 for instance? How about the British heavies?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 27, 2005)

well on paper it would appear to be better than a B-17, but so was the Skua, and the british heavies beat the P.108 hands down, however no one knows much about it's construction for example, so we can't really tell what she was like in combat...............


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## mosquitoman (Apr 27, 2005)

A bit of exaggeration there Lanc, the oly thing that a Skua was better than was a Roc


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 27, 2005)

yes i know it was just a friendly little bash at the B-17...........


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## Aggie08 (Apr 27, 2005)

Good lord three engined planes are ugly.


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## JCS (Apr 27, 2005)

All the tri-motor Italian planes looked great, IMO.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 27, 2005)

More.

SM-79






CANTZ 1007 over Greece.







The divebomber Breda Ba-201, powered by DB-601.







Elegant gull wing in this plane.


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## DAVIDICUS (Apr 27, 2005)

I'm not a fan of tri-motored aircraft either. But ...

That Cant Z.1007 Alcione is a beautiful airplane. (Flying over Greece circa 1941.)


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## evangilder (Apr 28, 2005)

I normally also don't care for tri-motors, but that being said, if I had to fly one, the CANT would be the one.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 28, 2005)

wow i love your new siggy JCS............


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 29, 2005)

I love the looks of pretty much all Italian planes.

The P.108 was a kick ass bomber, a rival for the British heavies...The P.111 would have been great


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 29, 2005)

and how do you suppose the P.108 could stand up against the british heavies??


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## BombTaxi (Apr 29, 2005)

The Italian trimotors all look great, shame they were a bit of a developmental dead-end by the time they appeared


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 29, 2005)

Yeah. Although the SM.79 was one of the very best torpedo bombers.


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## JCS (Apr 29, 2005)

Great pics, CB. I especially love that one of the Z.1007.


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 29, 2005)

Yep the pics are very, having some of them for myself  Gotta love the SM.79 at the top of the page 8)


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## CEFORNIGLIA (Jan 15, 2018)

DAVIDICUS said:


> Macchi MC 205 Veltro - Became operational in June 1943
> 
> Fiat G55 Centauro - Became operational in September of 1943
> 
> ...


The Macchi 205 Was deliverd to the First Fighter Wing in February, 1943: The first Re2005 (Prototype) entered servce with the 22nd Fighter Group in March. The G.55 (2nd Prototype) with the 20th Fighter Group in April, 1943.


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