# Number of aircraft in a squadron?



## hkishel (Aug 6, 2008)

If this has been answered a hundred times already I am sorry for asking again. I tried to search for it but was unable to find what I am looking for.

I would like to find the number of aircraft that would be found in a squadron during WWII. I am interested in all the nations that fought during the war.

Thanks

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Thorlifter (Aug 6, 2008)

I always thought it was between 12 and 15. I'm sure our smarter people have the correct answer.


----------



## drgondog (Aug 6, 2008)

for Usaaf Operations 16 aircraft for Fighter ops and 12 for bomber ops - each with variations

Total squadron strength was closer to 24-26 per sqaudron with 4 flights of 8 plus pilots per flight.


----------



## Vincenzo (Aug 7, 2008)

Regia Aeronautica (italian Royal Air Force) "squadriglia" strenght 7/12 (7 recce, 9 bomber, 12 fighter), "squadriglia" operational 5/9 (5 recce, 7 bomber, 9 fighter)


----------



## hkishel (Aug 7, 2008)

Thanks for the info guys.

If any one knows of websites were I could find more info that would be great too.


----------



## Njaco (Aug 7, 2008)

for the German side check this.....

High Command of the Luftwaffe

"The Gruppe (Group) was led by a Gruppenkommandeur or Kommandeur, an executive post held by an aircrew member whose rank could vary considerably - normally it was a Major in the case of bomber units and a Hauptmann in fighter units. He had his own operational and administrative Gruppenstab (Staff), and flew combat operations with his Stabsschwarm (Staff Flight) usually of 3 to 4 aircraft. Under his command there were three, or sometimes four, Staffeln (Squadrons) led by a Staffelkapitän, an executive post that could be held by any aircrew officer from Leutnant to Hauptmann. In the temporary absence of the Staffelkapitän, the unit was led by a Staffelführer. For tactical operations, the Staffel was split into Schwarm (Section of four aircraft) or Rotte (pair of aircraft) in the case of fighters, fighter-bombers or close -support aircraft, or Kette (Flight of three aircraft) in the case of bombers and dive-bombers. The Staffel normally comprised between 12 and 16 aircraft, with the number of aircrew varying according to the strength; normally there were 20-25 pilots and 150 ground crew in the case of single-engined fighter units and 80 groundcrew in the case of twin-engined fighter units. Thus, a Gruppe consisted of 40-50 aircraft on establishment with around 500 ground personnel.

The Geschwader would thus have between 120-125 aircraft, in the case of a Jagdgeschwader, whereas the Kampfgeschwader had about 80-90 on strength. In October 1943, JG 2 and JG 26 became the first Geschwaders to increase the strength of their Gruppen from three to four Staffeln, thus raising the establishment to about 160 aircraft."

This was mostly a paper number as the war ground on. Unservicable planes marked as servicable, lack of equipment and pilots, etc., all contributed to many groups not having full strength in reality.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Freebird (Aug 7, 2008)

Did the British/Commonwealth have larger squadrons than the US?


----------



## drgondog (Aug 9, 2008)

freebird said:


> Did the British/Commonwealth have larger squadrons than the US?



IIRC the Commonwealth typically flew 12/Sq on ops. US doctrine was two sections comprised of two four ship flights each for fighters


----------



## renrich (Aug 9, 2008)

An air group of carrier based USN AC during the Guadalcanal campaign consisted of four squadrons. The fighting squadron, VF, comprised 27 F4F4s, the bombing squadrons, VS and VB, each had 18 SBD3s, and the torpedo squadron VT, had 18 TBF1s. You guys always seem to want to neglect the airdales. LOL


----------



## MFH (Oct 5, 2008)

Note: USN Pacific Fleet units only; dates are approximate; not all carriers carried these exact compliments, esp. early in the war and due to combat losses. CAG birds not listed. Errors are due to my memory (or lack thereof).

For fleet carrier air groups (CVGs; this is mostly from memory, but I think it's right) authorized strength was:

December 1941 to April 1942:

VF - 18 (I found one document that indicates this was supposed to be increased to 27 starting 10/1/41, but no unit had this strength until early 1942 due to limited aircraft production)
VB - 18
VS - 18
VT - 18 (usually carried less)

April 1942 to June 1942 (including Midway):

VF - 27 (but not all squadrons reached this strength due to squadron composition deployment, see VF-2 VF-42 at Coral Sea)
VB - 18
VS - 18
VT - 18 (usually 12-15)

July 1942 to March 1943:

VF - 36 (note: USS _Wasp_ carried only ~30 VF)
VB - 18
VS - 18 (note: USS _Wasp_ had two VS and no VB)
VT - 18 (usually 12-16)

March 1943 to July 1943:

VF - 36
2xVB - 18 each (VS were redesignated VB ~ 3/1/1943)
VT - 18

July 1943 to September 1944:

VF - 36 (could increase to over 40)
VF(N) - 4 (from ~January 1944 on)
VB - 36 (2xVBs combined into one unit; could decrease to ~30)
VT - 18

September 1944 to December 1944:

VF - 49 + VF(N) - 4
VB - 25
VT - 18

From December 1944 to August 1945, there was much variation in response to kamikazes:

(CV-9 [12/44-3/45], CV-18 [1/45-3/45]):

VF - 50 + VF(N) - 4 (though this might have gone as high as 64, I just don't remember for sure right now)
VT - 15
2xVMF - 18

(CV-13 [3/45], CV-17 [2/45-5/45] CV-20 [2/45-6-45]):

VF - 36 (includes VF(N))
VB - 15
VT - 15
2xVMF -18

Others:
VF - 69 + VF(N) - 4
VB - 15
VT - 15

Still others:

VF - 36 (includes VF(N))
VBF - 36
VB - 15
VT - 15

For the invasion of Japan, CVGs were to go be composed as (none saw action with this composition):

VF - 32 (includes 4 - VF(N) 4 VF(P))
VBF - 24
VB - 24
VT - 20

For USN Night Carrier Air Groups (though CVG(N)-53 differed by including a VF):

VF(N) - 37
VT(N) - 18

For USN Light Fleet Carrier Air Groups (CVLGs):

August 1943 to August 1945:

VF - 24
VT - 9

CVLG(N)-41 (8/44-1/45):
VF(N) - 19
VT(N) - 8

For the invasion of Japan (none saw combat with this composition):

VF - 36

Let me know if help is needed deciphering anything.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## Mangrove (Oct 6, 2008)

As a small nation with a small air force the strength of a Finnish squadron varied a lot. A Brewster squadron Le.Lv.24 had +40 planes in Summer 1941 but an other fighter squadron Le.Lv.30 had only few captured Polikarpov I-153s and Fokkers.

So no one can't write down an accurate number without knowing the unit and time.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Airframes (Oct 6, 2008)

WW2 R.A.F. Squadrons generally consisted of 12 aircraft available, although there were operational variations. Depending on role, the squadron would be made up of 'A' Flight and 'B' Flight, each of 6 operational aircraft. On fighter squadrons, the Flights were sub-divided into sections, eg, Red Section, Blue Section, etc, of 2-3 aircaft, again depending on operational requirements.
The actual STRENGTH of a Squadron could, however, be 18 aircraft, allowing for reserves, 'spare' A/C, and aircraft temporarily unserviceable. In some units later in the war, operational strength could be up to 18 A/C, although this was not the norm.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Freebird (Apr 14, 2012)

Airframes said:


> WW2 R.A.F. Squadrons generally consisted of 12 aircraft available, although there were operational variations. Depending on role, the squadron would be made up of 'A' Flight and 'B' Flight, each of 6 operational aircraft. On fighter squadrons, the Flights were sub-divided into sections, eg, Red Section, Blue Section, etc, of 2-3 aircaft, again depending on operational requirements.
> The actual STRENGTH of a Squadron could, however, be 18 aircraft, allowing for reserves, 'spare' A/C, and aircraft temporarily unserviceable. In some units later in the war, operational strength could be up to 18 A/C, although this was not the norm.





Thanks very much Airframes! 8)

I noticed on the (always-reliable  ) Wiki that they have most fighter squadrons of the 1942 Desert AF with 16 or 18 aircraft, would that probably mean 12 operation aircraft and 18 total? (ie - including spares unservicable) 



wiki said:


> *Western Desert Air Force*On 27 October 1942, the Western Desert Air Force (WDAF) was organized as shown below:[7]
> 
> Subordinated to General Headquarters RAF Middle East (GHQ RAF Middle East)
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## buffnut453 (Apr 14, 2012)

Commonwealth fighter squadrons typically had 12 aircraft Initial Equipment (IE) with an additional 6 as Immediate Reserve (IR). The total strength would vary, however, depending on local circumstances.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Milosh (Apr 14, 2012)

During the BoB, RAF fighter squadrons had 18-22 a/c on hand.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Airframes (Apr 14, 2012)

But again, normally 12 operational - if they were lucky. At that period, on any given day, an average _operational _strength could vary between 6 and 9 aircraft - often less.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Peter P (Dec 6, 2021)

hkishel said:


> If this has been answered a hundred times already I am sorry for asking again. I tried to search for it but was unable to find what I am looking for.
> 
> I would like to find the number of aircraft that would be found in a squadron during WWII. I am interested in all the nations that fought during the war.
> 
> Thanks


You might try www.bobrowen.com › nymas › usaaf1 for a list for Groups.


----------



## MikeMeech (Dec 7, 2021)

hkishel said:


> If this has been answered a hundred times already I am sorry for asking again. I tried to search for it but was unable to find what I am looking for.
> 
> I would like to find the number of aircraft that would be found in a squadron during WWII. I am interested in all the nations that fought during the war.
> 
> Thanks


Hi
The British OH 'The Strategic Air Offensive Against Germany 1939-1945 Volume IV Annexes & Appendices' by Webster and Frankland, has ORBATs for Bomber Command in 1943 and 1945, part of them below:









A reprint of another official document AP 3231 'Airborne Forces' has the ORBAT for RAF 38 Group just prior to D-Day showing the strength of squadrons:




This shows that there is a variable number of aircraft on squadrons which can depend on period of war, role and type of aircraft etc. It can appear that squadrons could get 'larger' as the war progressed, this also happened during WW1.
I hope that is of use.

Mike

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## EwenS (Dec 7, 2021)

In Bomber Command, as the war went on and more aircraft became available, many squadrons expanded and formed a third flight, C flight. Then from late 1943 many of these C flights were spun out to form the basis of new squadrons. So squadrons could grow and then shrink.

So for example 103 squadron C flight was used to form 576 squadron on 25 Nov 1943 at the same airfield. 576 then moved to Fiskerton in Oct 1944.

B-29 squadrons in XX AF, USAAF, were based around a strength of 15 aircraft.

The Fleet Air Arm front line squadrons could be even more variable depending on role, aircraft and aircrew availability, the period of the war and the carrier they were flying from. They could range anywhere from 6 to 24. Squadrons generally grew in size as the war went on. In 1944 the Barracuda torpedo bomber wings of two squadrons on each fleet carrier, generally of 12 & 9 aircraft respectively, were firstly amalgamated into a single squadron. That squadron then re-equipped with Avengers and downsized to around 15 to allow expansion of the fighter squadrons.

But there was one major exception in the FAA. 836 squadron was responsible for the Swordfish flights on the 17 British manned MAC ships, each of 3-4 aircraft. Along with 860, controlling the flights on two Dutch manned MACs, at one point there were 83 aircraft in the pool of aircraft for these squadrons.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## MIflyer (Dec 7, 2021)

Normally, in WWII:

RAF: 12

USAAF: 18

Any unit on Guadalcanal in 42 and early 43, maybe 4 on a good day. VT-8 was down to one at one point and they had to build that one out of wrecks; it had a lot of extra dihedral in one wing.

And note that the B-29's in the Pacific were often flown by two different crews, even if one crew was "assigned" to a particular serial number aircraft and had their chosen name painted on the nose.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Dec 7, 2021)

Peter P said:


> You might try www.bobrowen.com › nymas › usaaf1 for a list for Groups.


Just so you know, the OP began this thread 14 years ago. the last time he was here was Aug 9, 2008


----------



## Admiral Beez (Dec 7, 2021)

Airframes said:


> WW2 R.A.F. Squadrons generally consisted of 12 aircraft available....


The OP wasn't exclusively about fighters. We should also consider multiengine squadrons, like Bomber Command or Coastal Command. I think of the three Catalinas of 205 Squadron at Malaya in 1941, under Wing Commander Burgess.







I wonder where the rest of 205 Squadron was? Maybe in Ceylon, but they could have been anywhere. That must make the Squadron Leader's job a challenge. I suppose that no different than FAA squadrons, where the unit's Walruses can be spread across the globe on the backs of the RN's battleships and cruisers.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## EwenS (Dec 7, 2021)

Admiral Beez said:


> The OP wasn't exclusively about fighters. We should also consider multiengine squadrons, like Bomber Command or Coastal Command. I think of the three Catalinas of 205 Squadron at Malaya in 1941, under Wing Commander Burgess.
> 
> View attachment 650758
> 
> ...


During 1941 205 squadron’s main base was Singapore but it operated flights in Ceylon and the Nicobar Islands (north of Sumatra). Between April and Oct 1941 they converted to the Catalina from Short Singapore III.

The Singapore element moved south through the DEI until reaching Broome in Australia in March 1942 where it disbanded. A “new” 205 squadron then reformed around the Ceylon detachment in July 1942 taking 8 aircraft from 202 and 240 squadrons.


----------



## MikeMeech (Dec 7, 2021)

hkishel said:


> If this has been answered a hundred times already I am sorry for asking again. I tried to search for it but was unable to find what I am looking for.
> 
> I would like to find the number of aircraft that would be found in a squadron during WWII. I am interested in all the nations that fought during the war.
> 
> Thanks


Hi
The book 'Aircraft for the Many' by Michael J F Bowyer, has some tables showing the establishment and serviceability of squadrons on the eve of D-Day:





















I hope that is of use.

Mike

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## MikeMeech (Dec 7, 2021)

hkishel said:


> If this has been answered a hundred times already I am sorry for asking again. I tried to search for it but was unable to find what I am looking for.
> 
> I would like to find the number of aircraft that would be found in a squadron during WWII. I am interested in all the nations that fought during the war.
> 
> Thanks


Hi
Alfred Price's book 'The Last Year of the Luftwaffe, May 1944 to May 1945' has some useful tables including the following:





















Mike

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Dec 7, 2021)

MikeMeech said:


> Hi
> Alfred Price's book 'The Last Year of the Luftwaffe, May 1944 to May 1945' has some useful tables including the following:
> 
> Mike


Mike - as always great information and dead threads are always welcomed to be revived, but as mentioned the OP you're answering hasn't been around since 2008.


----------



## MikeMeech (Dec 7, 2021)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Mike - as always great information and dead threads are always welcomed to be revived, but as mentioned the OP you're answering hasn't been around since 2008.


Hi
Yes thank you, however, unanswered questions do make the thread look a bit untidy.

Mike

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Agree Agree:
2 | Funny Funny:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Dec 7, 2021)

MikeMeech said:


> Hi
> Yes thank you, however, unanswered questions do make the thread look a bit untidy.
> 
> Mike


I love the efficiency of our members!!!!

Reactions: Agree Agree:
1 | Funny Funny:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Admiral Beez (Dec 8, 2021)

MIflyer said:


> Normally, in WWII:
> 
> RAF: 12


We should also count spare aircraft. In Malaya there were 48 active Buffalo aircraft across five squadrons (RAAF 21, 453, 243 and NZ 488) out of 150 total serviceable Buffaloes in Malaya. Either these were spares for the four active squadrons or were waiting for other squadrons to form.

As an aside, can you imagine trying to defend Malaya, a territory larger than the UK with only four fighter squadrons? By Nov 1941 the UK had over eighty.


----------



## pbehn (Dec 8, 2021)

From The airfields | American Air Museum in Britain

In UK 
*Typical fighter base, 1944*


One Fighter Group of three flying squadrons, plus a Service Group or Squadron.
Total Group establishment - 75 to 108 P-38s, P-47s or P-51s including reserves, and 75 to 108 pilots.
Average base personnel - 1,200
Fuel storage - 72,000 gallons
Ordnance storage - 1,000 tons of bombs

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## 33k in the air (Dec 8, 2021)

MikeMeech said:


> Hi
> Yes thank you, however, unanswered questions do make the thread look a bit untidy.
> 
> Mike



Thanks for posting those screenshots. They are of interest to me. 

Do you have similar tables for Bomber Command squadrons? Is there any similar data for squadrons in the Mediterranean theatre?


----------



## MIflyer (Dec 8, 2021)

Admiral Beez said:


> As an aside, can you imagine trying to defend Malaya, a territory larger than the UK with only four fighter squadrons? By Nov 1941 the UK had over eighty.


And can you imagine doing that when the commander of a naval force does not bother to ring up the air force and tell them he would like some air cover at such and such a place and time? Those IJN bombers that sunk the Prince of Wales and the Repulse did not even have fighter escort. They were sitting ducks for those Buffalos, which were well within range.

Reactions: Useful Useful:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## nuuumannn (Dec 8, 2021)

MIflyer said:


> And can you imagine doing that when the commander of a naval force does not bother to ring up the air force and tell them he would like some air cover at such and such a place and time?



They did, but by the time they had done so, it was too late; the radio report of the attack on the ships came an hour after the attack began and Buffaloes were scrambled, two from 243 Sqn and ten from 453 Sqn, but when the fighters arrived the Japanese were gone, all they saw was the bow of one of the ships sticking out of the water surrounded by people and flotsam on the surface.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## MikeMeech (Dec 9, 2021)

33k in the air said:


> Thanks for posting those screenshots. They are of interest to me.
> 
> Do you have similar tables for Bomber Command squadrons? Is there any similar data for squadrons in the Mediterranean theatre?


Hi
From 'Aircraft for the Many' just prior to D-Day Bomber Command:




Transport Command at 1800 hrs 5 June 1944:








Mike


----------



## MIflyer (Dec 9, 2021)

nuuumannn said:


> They did, but by the time they had done so, it was too late;


He had asked for air cover for the area where he expected to intercept the IJN invasion fleet. When the RAF replied "No Can Do" it seems he put it out of his mind.

I recall reading where in that same timeframe a scientist was briefing the head officer in the RN for ship air defense on options for augmenting ship AAA. Finally the officer said, "Now, could you tell me just what this 'dive bombing' is that you keep referring to?"

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## JDCAVE (Dec 9, 2021)

The squadron ORB’s record strength of aircraft on charge. For 419 Squadron there were 20, and 16 crews or more were routinely sent out on operations. Of course there were more crews on strength than aircraft. Additional information is available at the Base level (and perhaps Station), where additional aircraft and their status are recorded In the ORB’s.






Royal Canadian Air Force operations record book... - Héritage


Royal Canadian Air Force operations record books : C-12292




heritage.canadiana.ca





Jim

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## MikeMeech (Dec 9, 2021)

MIflyer said:


> I recall reading where in that same timeframe a scientist was briefing the head officer in the RN for ship air defense on options for augmenting ship AAA. Finally the officer said, "Now, could you tell me just what this 'dive bombing' is that you keep referring to?"


Hi
A 'nice' story but probably total BS, after all in that 'same timeframe' the Royal Navy had engaged German dive bombers in the North Sea, the Channel and in the Med, the 'head officer' could only not know what 'dive bombing' was if he had been serving on a different planet. The RN had also decided to order the Bofors 40 mm and the Oerlikon 20 mm during the first half of 1939, to improve their air defences. The FAA had also used dive bombers in action against the German navy during the Norwegian campaign. The main problem with augmenting a ships AAA was top weight, it usually meant something else would have to be removed, it also meant adding extra crew to man extra weapons etc. which meant finding places for them to sleep on board (especially true of 'old' destroyers being converted into escorts). By the beginning of 1942 the RN was obviously the most experienced navy in the world on being dive bombed, it was also the most experienced in the world on Radar Fighter Direction to defend the fleet (another thing that was first tried out in the Norwegian Campaign during 1940).

Mike

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## nuuumannn (Dec 9, 2021)

MIflyer said:


> He had asked for air cover for the area where he expected to intercept the IJN invasion fleet. When the RAF replied "No Can Do" it seems he put it out of his mind.



Yes and proceeded in radio silence, but had still requested it, even if it was too late. I do suspect we are simplifying the situation somewhat, but yes, the ships should have had fighter escort of some sort. Not the first time someone underestimated the capabilities of the enemy.


----------



## Milosh (Dec 9, 2021)



Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## 33k in the air (Dec 9, 2021)

JDCAVE said:


> The squadron ORB’s record strength of aircraft on charge. For 419 Squadron there were 20, and 16 crews or more were routinely sent out on operations. Of course there were more crews on strength than aircraft. Additional information is available at the Base level (and perhaps Station), where additional aircraft and their status are recorded In the ORB’s.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To add to the above, here are some additional examples:

*428 Squadron*
31-01-1943: 13 Wellington III, 6 Wellington X
28-02-1943: 10 Wellington III, 6 Wellington III (Mod. 423), 7 Wellington X
31-03-1943: 7 Wellington III, 4 Wellington III (Mod. 423), 13 Wellington X
30-04-1943: 19 Wellington X
31-05-1943: 3 Wellington III, 17 Wellington X

30-04-1944: 21 Halifax II
31-05-1944: 19 Halifax II, 3 Lancaster X
30-06-1944: 12 Halifax II, 12 Lancaster X
31-07-1944: 21 Lancaster X
31-08-1944: 23 Lancaster X
30-09-1944: 27 Lancaster X

*408 Squadron*
30-04-1942: 26 Hampden
31-05-1942: 20 Hampden
30-06-1942: 22 Hampden
31-07-1942: 21 Hampden
31-08-1942: 18 Hampden
30-09-1942: 0 aircraft
31-10-1942: 15 Halifax II/V

31-01-1943: 17 Halifax II/V
28-02-1943: 18 Halifax II
31-03-1943: 15 Halifax II, 1 Halifax V

31-05-1943: 21 Halifax II, 1 Halifax V
30-06-1943: 19 Halifax II
31-07-1943: 21 Halifax II
31-08-1943: 2 Halifax II, 16 Lancaster II
30-09-1943: 21 Lancaster II
31-10-1943: 20 Lancaster II
30-11-1943: 21 Lancaster II
31-12-1943: 20 Lancaster II
31-01-1944: 19 Lancaster II
29-02-1944: 20 Lancaster II
31-03-1943: 19 Lancaster II
30-04-1944: 20 Lancaster II
31-05-1944: 22 Lancaster II
30-06-1944: 18 Lancaster II
31-07-1944: 18 Lancaster II


----------



## JDCAVE (Dec 9, 2021)

33K: Your number for 428 Squadron and September 1944 is for aircraft on charge. 





Royal Canadian Air Force operations record book... - Héritage


Royal Canadian Air Force operations record books : C-12301




heritage.canadiana.ca





Not all would be available for operations. 64 Base ORB records 19-21 serviceable aircraft depending on the date. 






Royal Canadian Air Force operations record book... - Héritage


Royal Canadian Air Force operations record books : C-12428




heritage.canadiana.ca









Royal Canadian Air Force operations record book... - Héritage


Royal Canadian Air Force operations record books : C-12428




heritage.canadiana.ca





There are several code words here and from this forum:





Derby, Goodwood and Freshers?


I have been reviewing the ORB's for 64 Base (RCAF Bomber Command) and note the terms "Derby, Goodwood and Freshers" under "Serviceability". Can anyone comment as to what these terms mean? http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.lac_reel_c12428/198?r=0&s=3 Jim



www.rafcommands.com





DERBY
(iv) Indicates the maximum effort from operational squadrons excluding crews which have operated on both of the two previous nights and crews screened for training, re-equipping or for any similar purpose.

GOODWOOD
(v) Indicates the maximum possible effort from Operational Squadrons, including all suitable 'freshmen'. All crews whether screened for training, re-equipping or for any similar purpose, irrespective of the number of previous consecutive nights on which they have operated are to be employed.

So there are serviceable aircraft and there are crews available. Also, aircraft were stored at the Base (64-Base Middleton St. George). These aircraft awaiting assignment to squadrons. So just because aircraft were at the Base, it does not mean that the squadrons have access to them, particularly during the period when 431 and 434 Squadrons were readying for reequipment with Lancaster X's. 

Jim


----------



## JDCAVE (Dec 9, 2021)

Further to this: This is the effort by the RCAF 6-Group for a raid to Dortmund, 

The raid to Dortmund on October 6, 1944 was the largest effort of the war by RCAF 6-Group with 293 detailed to attack the target area . 











Royal Canadian Air Force operations record book... - Héritage


Royal Canadian Air Force operations record books : C-12420




heritage.canadiana.ca

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## MIflyer (Dec 9, 2021)

The naval force commander had decided not to take the available aircraft carrier with them because it was so small and slow. The resultant lack of fighter cover led to the IJN decsion to not send fighter escort with the bombers. The Buffalos would have been a rude shock to the bombers.


----------



## 33k in the air (Dec 9, 2021)

JDCAVE said:


> 33K: Your number for 428 Squadron and September 1944 is for aircraft on charge.



Yes, that's right. The figures are from the respective squadrons' Summary of Events. I thought that was what you had posted as well.



JDCAVE said:


> Not all would be available for operations.



Agreed!


----------



## Geoffrey Sinclair (Dec 12, 2021)

As has been noted a Squadron is a Squadron because the Air Force says it is a Squadron it will vary widely interms of number of aircraft, depending on place, time and type of aircraft.

The RAF on paper split squadron strength into Initial Equipment and Initial Reserve, I.R.+I.E, until late in the war, when this largely paper idea was replaced with Unit Equipment, U.E. counting all the aircraft, one report I have has the change over in June 1944. As a result it is easy to end up counting the I.R. numbers and think that is the total strength.

For Bomber Command Order of Battle See Air 14/2695 to 2697, often weekly during the war, July 1939 to December 1947. If there is a specific squadron strength wanted let me know. See also RAF Squadrons by Jefford which is a good reference for locations and equipment.

When the 8th Air Force arrived in Britain a heavy bomber squadron strength was 9 aircraft, so a group strength around 36, as of D-Day most groups held more than 50 and up to 72 aircraft, around 60 on average.

VIII Fighter Command, personnel as of 30th , aircraft as of 31st May 1944

UnitOfficersMenAircraftNoteHQ183​727​Auxiliary4​79​HitchamAuxiliary6​90​Greyfriars65th Wing86​833​4th FG186​1379​71​P-5156th FG212​1478​94​P-47355th FG179​1416​77​P-51356th FG191​1392​86​P-47479th FG196​1390​68​P-3866th Wing76​567​55th FG198​1522​70​P-3878th FG215​1464​83​P-47339th FG187​1368​68​P-51353rd FG191​1417​82​P-47357th FG193​1409​68​P-5167th Wing83​590​20th FG213​1521​68​P-38352nd FG187​1378​74​P-51359th FG191​1461​69​P-51361st FG189​1453​74​P-51364th FG203​1505​70​P-38Total3369​24439​1122​195.4​1436.9​74.8​average fighter group size

The USAAF official history has a table of (proposed) group strengths in 1945, fighter and very heavy bomber groups had 3 squadrons, others 4.

B-29, 45 aircraft, 60 times 11 man crews, 2,078 officers and men.
B-17/24, 72 aircraft, 96 times 9 to 11 man crews, 2,261 officers and men.
B-25/26, 96 aircraft, 96 times 5 to 6 man crews, 1,759 officers and men.
A-20/26, 96 aircraft, 96 times 3 to 4 man crews, 1,304 officers and men.
P-40/47/51, 111 to 126 aircraft, 108 to 126 pilots, 994 officers and men.
P-38, 111 to 126 aircraft, 108 to 126 pilots, 1,081 officers and men.
C-47 (troop carrier), 80 to 110 aircraft, 128 times 4 to 5 man crews, 1,837 officers and men.
C-46/47 (combat cargo) 125 aircraft, 128 times 4 man crews, 883 officers and men

The rest are squadron strengths,
P-61/70 night fighter, 18 aircraft, 16 times 2 to 3 man crews, 288 officers and men.
P-39/40/F-6/L-4/5 tactical reconnaissance, 27 aircraft, 23 pilots, 233 officers and men.
F-5 (P-38) photographic reconnaissance, 24 aircraft, 21 pilots, 347 officers and men.
F-9(B-17)/F-7(B-24) combat mapping, 18 aircraft, 16 times 9 man crews, 474 officers and men.

Force Z air cover, time line from the book Battleship by Middlebrook and Mahoney.
06.30 possible enemy aircraft sighted by Force Z.
10.05 HMS Tenedos, south of force Z signals is being attacked by enemy aircraft.
10.15 Japanese search plane spots force Z, and it spotted.
11.13 first bombing attack.
11.40 first torpedo attack, 11.44 HMS Prince of Wales is crippled.
11.58 HMS Repulse signals it is under air attack (received in war room 12.04)
12.20 HMS Prince of Wales signals torpedo hit and asks for destroyers. (received 12.40)
12.20 453 squadron takes off
12.30 (shortly before) HMS Repulse hit by multiple torpedoes, begins sinking.
13.04 Singapore receives a message from HMS Prince of Wales asking for tugs.
13.10 Singapore receives a message from HMS Electra reporting HMS Repulse sunk.
13.20 453 squadron arrives (82 minutes after Repulse signal)
15.21 Singapore receives a message from HMS Electra reporting HMS Prince of Wales sunk.

So if force Z had sent a sighting report at 10.15, 82 minutes later is 11.37, add 3 minutes for coding it is a 10.18 signal, 453 arrives at 11.40. Note the book has 10.18 signal, 453 arriving 11.30, so either a mistake in the arrival time or the theoretical arrival time.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## elbmc1969 (Dec 13, 2021)

For the Armee de l'Air, the answer is "Squadron? What's a Squadron?"

There were the escadre and the escadrille and I can never keep the two straight. Different sizes for different aircraft types, in any case. Any the sizes change during the interwar period, naturally.


----------



## Denniss (Dec 13, 2021)

Escadrille was more in size of a german Staffel so around 12 a/c, at least for fighters. They typically had two escadrilles per escadre.
Bomber escadrille were smaller, more around 6-9 a/c. Depending on size of bomber escadrille they had 2 or 3 of them in an escadre.
Note: all of this out of memory so no warranty fro correctness

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## MIflyer (Dec 13, 2021)

Johnny Johnson pointed out that his Spitfire Wing had two squadrons of 12 aircraft each. He said that USAAF ETO fighter wings had 18 aircraft per squadron and three squadrons per Wing; he thought that very appropriate, since the USAAF went much further out into hostile airspace and if they ran into heavy opposition there was no one to call on for help but themselves.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------

