# Bf-109 with Rifle



## Micdrow (Jul 8, 2007)

OK here's one for the experts out there and wondered what you think. The tropical version of the Bf-109 sent to Africa had a rifle in the fuselage in case the pilot was shot down for self defense. In ways I thought it was a good idea but also a waste of war materials at the same time. In Russia I think it would have been a good idea but as far as I know it was never used in Russia. Thoughts and ideas on the subject. 

Also any body out there have a real picture of the installation of the weapon. 

Thanks in advance.


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## net_sailor (Jul 9, 2007)

Hi!
I saw a one photo with Mauser carabine mounted on Bf 109, but don't remember where  If I find them, I'll put them here.
AFAIK the Messerschmitts in Troop versions were used in Africa as well in Italy and Finland.


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## Kurfürst (Jul 9, 2007)

Here,






via 109G manual.

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## Micdrow (Jul 9, 2007)

Thanks guys,


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## genkideskan (Jul 9, 2007)

Herman Göring was an passionated hunter. It is a little known fact, that high quality shotguns and a combination hunting gun with two shot and an rifled barrel, the so called Luftwaffendrilling M/ 30,where made for the Luftwaffe. So shot down bombercrew couldt shot dears ect. to survive. Even the Luftwaffen ammunition regulation L.Dv. 4000/ 10 handle this shot and hunting ammo. Gun and ammo where supplied to tropical or longe range raids.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 9, 2007)

I think it is a good idea. There were many times that I wished I had a rifle instead of my 9mm if I had gone down.


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## Cyrano (Jul 9, 2007)




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## net_sailor (Jul 9, 2007)

Genkideskan, coul you post a photo of Luftwaffendrilling M/30. I'm very interesting to see this weapon.


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## genkideskan (Jul 9, 2007)

Here is the aluminum shipping box with manual and equipment for the Sauer 

M/ 30 Luftwaffendrilling as delivered to the squads.


.

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## net_sailor (Jul 9, 2007)

Thanks a lot!


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## Micdrow (Jul 9, 2007)

I thought I read some where that bomber crews carried some gun stocks so that they could use machine guns as infantry weapons if they where ever shot down but cant seem to find it right now.


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## Negative Creep (Jul 11, 2007)

Although interestingly, they were prohibited from carrying pistols during the Battle of Britain


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## Micdrow (Jul 12, 2007)

Negative Creep said:


> Although interestingly, they were prohibited from carrying pistols during the Battle of Britain



Why's that???


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## R-2800 (Jul 14, 2007)

wow the rifle in the fuselage is a good idea but having a high quaility hunting rifle? that's too much


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## genkideskan (Jul 15, 2007)

Micdrow - did they mentioned about the ammunition ? Is it stored with the emergency pack ( Notausrüstung ) in the luggage compartment ?


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## Micdrow (Jul 15, 2007)

genkideskan said:


> Micdrow - did they mentioned about the ammunition ? Is it stored with the emergency pack ( Notausrüstung ) in the luggage compartment ?



The information I had says nothing on where the ammo was stored. I will see if I can find some more info.


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## The Basket (Jul 15, 2007)

A reason German pilots during battle of britain had no pistols is an odd one and not to sure myself.

The 109 had tight range and many would fall from empty fuel into the English Channel. Some pilots shot themselves rather than die from drowning or exposure. This meant rescue was impossible so the carrying of guns was stopped.


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## Negative Creep (Jul 15, 2007)

I think it may have been for morale reasons as well. I would quote the passage, but it isn't indexed and don't really fancy skimming through 600 pages to find it!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 16, 2007)

The Basket said:


> The 109 had tight range and many would fall from empty fuel into the English Channel. Some pilots shot themselves rather than die from drowning or exposure. This meant rescue was impossible so the carrying of guns was stopped.



Where did you hear this? I am sure that some may have done so but it was not common practice for German pilots to do so.


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## Negative Creep (Jul 16, 2007)

I think the gun was more to do with being trapped in a burning plane than ditching in the ocean. Whilst a lot of pilots did die this way, there were buoys and rescue islands, and regular SAR patrols, even though Dowding authorized shooting rescue planes down, on the grounds they were spying


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## Erich (Jul 16, 2007)

the shotguns were early war replaced by MP 40's even in the S/E day fighter force over the Ost front


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## Neto (Nov 3, 2007)

it is a secret wepon for p 51's


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## machine shop tom (Nov 3, 2007)

Cyrano said:


> A bit weird decision from Göring, equipping crew with custom rifles when a Kar is sufficient enough for hunting... at least for bigger animals.
> Finnish pilots shot elks from their Brewsters and afterwards mechanics went to fetch the dead animals. Food for the whole squadron.



The FMJ bullets of the Mausers probably made it hard for reliable kills. The 9.3X74 (still loaded today) is on par with the 375 H&H rimmed magnum. It was supplied with hunting (the H-mantle bullets were designed for large, soft-skinned animals) bullets. 

tom


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## Glider (Apr 12, 2008)

Micdrow said:


> Why's that???



The *story *I heard, was that the Germans were concerned at the number of pilots who shot themselves after they had been shot down in the sea and had run out of water.

Back to the topic when the Italian BR20's were checked out after being sot down in the BOB, they found rifles, tin hats and bayonets!!.


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## Konigstiger205 (Apr 12, 2008)

Interesting idea with the hunting rifle, might as well add a tent and a sleeping bag and if there is enough space some spices so that the pilot can give some taste to whatever he hunted... Anyway the K98k rifle was a good idea, like Adler state its good to have a more powerful weapon than just a sidearm when you are on enemy territory.


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## ChrisMAg2 (Apr 21, 2008)

genkideskan said:


> Micdrow - did they mentioned about the ammunition ? Is it stored with the emergency pack ( Notausrüstung ) in the luggage compartment ?



I remember seeing a packed rifle canister for a multiengined plane. The ammo was stored within the canister. But as for the Me 109, i would assume the additional ammo is within the emergency pack.


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## ChrisMAg2 (Apr 21, 2008)

Konigstiger205 said:


> Interesting idea with the hunting rifle, might as well add a tent and a sleeping bag and if there is enough space some spices so that the pilot can give some taste to whatever he hunted... Anyway the K98k rifle was a good idea, like Adler state its good to have a more powerful weapon than just a sidearm when you are on enemy territory.



The concept or rational of the hunting rifle (the Bockdrilling) is survival, not firepower. The "Bockdrilling" is a universal hunting rifle as the ammo suggests:
12c/ 6G is for birds and rabbits
12c/ Brennecke is for wild boars
9,3x74 rifle ammo is for game like deers

The replacement with a K98, was probabely more a matter of supplies and availability. A K98 with it's 7,92x56 military ammo is a rather inappropriate survival tool.


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## kool kitty89 (Apr 21, 2008)

Combination gun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## HoHun (Apr 21, 2008)

Hi Koolkitty,

>Combination gun

The Bockdrilling is one specific variant, though: Bockdrilling â€“ Wikipedia

"Bock" refers to the vertical arrangement of the main barrels, "Drilling" is 'triplet'.

(Though "Bock" and 'buck' share the same root, the use in "Bockdrilling" is a secondary derivation from the - dead- metaphor "Bock" for a trestle or 'horse', which appears to be the equivalent English metaphor.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


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## ChrisMAg2 (Apr 22, 2008)

---Original content has been deleted by me, because it already has been mentioned.---


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## Glider (Jan 18, 2018)

The Basket said:


> A reason German pilots during battle of britain had no pistols is an odd one and not to sure myself.
> 
> The 109 had tight range and many would fall from empty fuel into the English Channel. Some pilots shot themselves rather than die from drowning or exposure. This meant rescue was impossible so the carrying of guns was stopped.


I have to say that this is something that I had heard


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## The Basket (Jan 19, 2018)

M30 drilling was a fantastic rifle which was vastly expensive and fancy for a basic rifle. 2 shot gun barrels and a rifle barrel. It was a vastly over priced superb piece of kit which was a commercial grade rifle.
Considered to be the most nicest ever high end rifle given to troops it's high end cost is stupid and when someone eventually realised this purchase was stopped.
More of a safari gun designed for shooting rhinos than a survival gun.
But the quality of the weapon is first class and the polar opposite of the Sten.

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## Elmas (Jan 20, 2018)

The Basket said:


> M30 drilling was a fantastic rifle which was vastly expensive and fancy for a basic rifle. 2 shot gun barrels and a rifle barrel. It was a vastly over priced superb piece of kit which was a commercial grade rifle.
> Considered to be the most nicest ever high end rifle given to troops it's high end cost is stupid and when someone eventually realised this purchase was stopped.
> More of a safari gun designed for shooting rhinos than a survival gun.
> But the quality of the weapon is first class and the polar opposite of the Sten.



_"The only difference between a man and a child is the price of their toys."_
I think this is an English proverb, but I think it can be applied to everyone and to Goering in particular....
In one of his castles he had a huge model railroad and he used to play a lot with it...


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