# B-25D Junior Bat 41-29697



## Micdrow (Sep 23, 2017)

Morning guys, thought a few of you might be interested in this. I have been researching B-25's for a while now and have been finding a few with the 20mm cannon but this was the first I found both a documented statement in a combat log of the 90th bomb squadron and a picture. Picture is from B-25 Mitchell at war by Jerry Scutts.


----------



## Wurger (Sep 23, 2017)



Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Wayne Little (Sep 23, 2017)

Cool.


----------



## Micdrow (Sep 23, 2017)

Wayne Little said:


> Cool.



Thanks Wayne!


----------



## Old Wizard (Sep 24, 2017)




----------



## Gnomey (Sep 27, 2017)

Nice shot!


----------



## Kai Stemm (Sep 27, 2017)

Cool


----------



## chuter (Sep 28, 2017)

Very interesting. I wonder if they had any reliability issues with the guns.

By the way, this aircraft is missing the nose wheel well door spring loaded strut clearance flap/door*. Most gun nose B-25s in the Pacific, including essentially all of the 345th BG aircraft, had them removed leaving an external opening in the nose wheel well when the gear was retracted. I've talked to a ton of people (B-25 owners, operators and restorers) and no one had even noticed the doors had ever been removed by anyone in the first place let alone know why. I'm very curious about it. For example, there are pictures of the Air Apache's Tondelayo (WW2) with the door removed then pictures of it later after it was retired from combat and renamed Chow Hound that show the flap/door was reinstalled. It must be related to the guns in the nose.

*It allows the door to close with the gear down.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Micdrow (Sep 28, 2017)

chuter said:


> Very interesting. I wonder if they had any reliability issues with the guns.
> 
> By the way, this aircraft is missing the nose wheel well door spring loaded strut clearance flap/door*. Most gun nose B-25s in the Pacific, including essentially all of the 345th BG aircraft, had them removed leaving an external opening in the nose wheel well when the gear was retracted. I've talked to a ton of people (B-25 owners, operators and restorers) and no one had even noticed the doors had ever been removed by anyone in the first place let alone know why. I'm very curious about it. For example, there are pictures of the Air Apache's Tondelayo (WW2) with the door removed then pictures of it later after it was retired from combat and renamed Chow Hound that show the flap/door was reinstalled. It must be related to the guns in the nose.
> 
> *It allows the door to close with the gear down.



Very interesting Chuter, I will have to look this weekend at some other pictures of B-25's with the cannon mounted that I have found so far. I thought I remember some where reading about why they where removed it but don't remember where or why. If I find it again I will post it for you.


----------



## CATCH 22 (Sep 30, 2017)

chuter said:


> Very interesting. I wonder if they had any reliability issues with the guns.
> 
> By the way, this aircraft is missing the nose wheel well door spring loaded strut clearance flap/door*. Most gun nose B-25s in the Pacific, including essentially all of the 345th BG aircraft, had them removed leaving an external opening in the nose wheel well when the gear was retracted. I've talked to a ton of people (B-25 owners, operators and restorers) and no one had even noticed the doors had ever been removed by anyone in the first place let alone know why. I'm very curious about it. For example, there are pictures of the Air Apache's Tondelayo (WW2) with the door removed then pictures of it later after it was retired from combat and renamed Chow Hound that show the flap/door was reinstalled. It must be related to the guns in the nose.
> *It allows the door to close with the gear down.


In fact this "flap" has been removed even earlier on "Mitchells" in the Pacific Theatre when Pappy Gunn started modifying B-25 bombers into strafers a.k.a. "commerce destroyers". "Pappy's Folly" below was the prototype. IMHO this change has less to do with the 20mm cannon, but more with the 4-gun battery. Or maybe there's no connection at all?








There is a nice photo article about "Mortimer" B-25C s/n 41-12443. One can see the transformation from a stock a/c to a strafer. At the end the "flap"-cover in question is missing.




"Mortimer Jr." shows the same modification (same with the rest of the 13-th AS. "Mitchells").


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 1, 2017)

Some great pictures there Catch22. From what I remember but still trying to find the source again the vibration of the machine guns loosen the rivets causing the door to droop and catch in the slip stream ripping it off.


----------



## Wayne Little (Oct 1, 2017)

great pics man...


----------



## CATCH 22 (Oct 1, 2017)

Micdrow said:


> Some great pictures there Catch22. From what I remember but still trying to find the source again the vibration of the machine guns loosen the rivets causing the door to droop and catch in the slip stream ripping it off.


Yes, I remember this too. I just can't recall were the excessive vibrations caused by the 4-guns pack or by the external blister guns. Anyway the 4 nose guns in the Pappy Gunn's modification were attached to a vertical steel tube (HSS) bolted to the floor of the bombardiers compartment which was the top of the wheel well. Vibrations were obviously easily transferred in this area.
Other modifications with 5-6 guns in the nose (e.g. 341.BG in CBI) had the guns attached differently and I do not remember seeing a plane without the "flap"-cover.


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 1, 2017)

CATCH 22 said:


> Yes, I remember this too. I just can't recall were the excessive vibrations caused by the 4-guns pack or by the external blister guns. Anyway the 4 nose guns in the Pappy Gunn's modification were attached to a vertical steel tube (HSS) bolted to the floor of the bombardiers compartment which was the top of the wheel well. Vibrations were obviously easily transferred in this area.
> Other modifications with 5-6 guns in the nose (e.g. 341.BG in CBI) had the guns attached differently and I do not remember seeing a plane without the "flap"-cover.



Agreed Catch22, I have been trying to figure out what modifications where done at Townsville Australia or at least any documentation on it.


----------



## CATCH 22 (Oct 1, 2017)

Micdrow said:


> Agreed Catch22, I have been trying to figure out what modifications where done at Townsville Australia or at least any documentation on it.


Pappy Gunn's modifications were initially performed by the 81-st Air Depot Group at Eagles farm near Brisbane. The project was later taken over by the 4-th Air Depot Group at Townsville (check "The Magnificent Medium" by Norm Avery). I think they did the same modifications. Of course they did more changes which we can't see (e.g. long range tank etc.), but the specification was similar.
Below a partial photo of a B-25C1 from TAD (Townsville Air Depot). The external guns with the blast tubes are very characteristic.




Check this very informative site. I remember using it a few years ago when researching the B-25. Try to open as many links as possible - there are hundreds of "hidden" photos. Link for TAD is here.
Cheers!


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 1, 2017)

CATCH 22 said:


> Pappy Gunn's modifications were initially performed by the 81-st Air Depot Group at Eagles farm near Brisbane. The project was later taken over by the 4-th Air Depot Group at Townsville (check "The Magnificent Medium" by Norm Avery). I think they did the same modifications. Of course they did more changes which we can't see (e.g. long range tank etc.), but the specification was similar.
> Below a partial photo of a B-25C1 from TAD (Townsville Air Depot). The external guns with the blast tubes are very characteristic.
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks Catch22, I know the site and have been slowing going through it and I also have the book The Magnificent Medium, very good book. I've been trying to organize my notes on a lot of it but would love to find some declassified notes on the configurations of the Medium bombers in Australia.

thanks for your comments and help on this 

Paul


----------



## CATCH 22 (Oct 1, 2017)

Micdrow said:


> ....I've been trying to organize my notes on a lot of it but would love to find some declassified notes on the configurations of the Medium bombers in Australia.
> Paul


Paul, try to contact Phil Marchese (a.k.a. Flip in some forums) if you find his email somewhere. I think he has the most detailed information about the Pacific modifications, known as C1 and D1 (and the later ones G1, H1 etc.). Check the 6-th comment in this thread - he mentions the above modifications. I myself have more information about B-25 mods in the MTO. Phil was writing in the old armyairforces-forum before and is in the new one as well. Try there.
Good Luck with your research!
Yves


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 2, 2017)

Thank you very much for the info Yves, you may find this web site interesting on B-25's in the Med. Some of the best documented combat logs I have seen. I wish other groups where as detailed for crews and aircraft.

B-25s of the MTO's 12th, 310th, 319th, 321st, 340th Bomb Groups, European-African-Middle Eastern (EAME) Campaign


----------



## CATCH 22 (Oct 2, 2017)

Micdrow said:


> Thank you very much for the info Yves, you may find this web site interesting on B-25's in the Med. Some of the best documented combat logs I have seen. I wish other groups where as detailed for crews and aircraft.
> B-25s of the MTO's 12th, 310th, 319th, 321st, 340th Bomb Groups, European-African-Middle Eastern (EAME) Campaign


Thank you, Paul! I follow this site since years. I spent many hours reading the war diaries of the above mentioned groups. I even tried to contribute with some explanations and clarifications about the photos there (e.g. some photos from the movie "Catch 22" were misinterpreted as war photos). IMHO with all linked sites this is The biggest internet source for information about the medium BGs in the MTO. Through this siet I made contact with one of the veterans from the 310-th BG. (George Underwood) who gave me invaluable firs hand information.
Regards!
Yves


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 2, 2017)

No problem Yves, you may find this interesting, found this on accident one day. It shows some of the modifications done on PBJ-1's (Marine B-25's) in the Pacific for 613 squadron

Aircraft Modifications

All the best
Paul


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 2, 2017)

Yves, if you ever need anything on the B-25 let me know. These for now are sitting on my work bench down stairs as you know its what I am currently researching but this is only some that I have on the B-25. A few are still upstairs


----------



## fubar57 (Oct 2, 2017)

Great stuff guys


----------



## CATCH 22 (Oct 2, 2017)

Micdrow said:


> No problem Yves, you may find this interesting, found this on accident one day. It shows some of the modifications done on PBJ-1's (Marine B-25's) in the Pacific for 613 squadron
> 
> Aircraft Modifications
> 
> ...


Oh, ya, I remember this list! One of the changes in the list I like a lot, BTW very interesting for modelers is:
_Removed paint from leading edge of wings, center section, empennage, engine cowling, & nose;_
Only VMB 613 had this interesting appearance of their PBJs (mostly in the last months of the war):












And below are two significant mods:
_Removed waist gun windows; Installed spoilers to waist window openings;_




BTW the sites of the Marine Bomber Squadrons (not all of them) are also a very very good source for mods, history and "other stuff".
Cheers!
P.S. Paul, If you want I can send you my list with personal B-25 sources. Many of them are hard copies (same as yours on the photo), but some of them I obtained as pdf-copies. If you find something interesting you don't possess, just say!


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 2, 2017)

Thank you sir, by the way not sure if you know this or not but this book has been release. My copy is on order but figure it will be a while yet as shipping from Netherlands. It is amazing how many different configurations of the Mitchell where really done.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 2, 2017)

He is the same author that wrote this book as I already have this one.


----------



## Old Wizard (Oct 2, 2017)




----------



## Juanita (Oct 8, 2017)

Wonderful collection of B-25 books you have there Micdrow!
And I couldn't agree more with you Catch 22, regarding the PBJs. Great looking aircraft. I was very impress they were fitted with radar range finders late in the war. Apparently allow the cannon to be fired from a greater distance with more accuracy.
Here is a profile of '8 Ball' from VMB-613.

I'm currently working on the TB-25N and I'm looking for photos of those at Randolph AFB around the mid 1950s.
There were a few great TB-25 photos posted on replicainscale.blogspot.com.au but none were from Randolph AFB

Juanita


----------



## Juanita (Oct 8, 2017)

Micdrow said:


> Morning guys, thought a few of you might be interested in this. I have been researching B-25's for a while now and have been finding a few with the 20mm cannon but this was the first I found both a documented statement in a combat log of the 90th bomb squadron and a picture. Picture is from B-25 Mitchell at war by Jerry Scutts.
> 
> View attachment 383325
> View attachment 383326



Micdrow,
Please excuse me if I'm being a bit thick...but where is the 20mm cannon in the photo of 'Junior Bat'?
Juanita


----------



## bowfin (Oct 8, 2017)

chuter said:


> Very interesting. I wonder if they had any reliability issues with the guns.
> 
> By the way, this aircraft is missing the nose wheel well door spring loaded strut clearance flap/door*. Most gun nose B-25s in the Pacific, including essentially all of the 345th BG aircraft, had them removed leaving an external opening in the nose wheel well when the gear was retracted. I've talked to a ton of people (B-25 owners, operators and restorers) and no one had even noticed the doors had ever been removed by anyone in the first place let alone know why. I'm very curious about it. For example, there are pictures of the Air Apache's Tondelayo (WW2) with the door removed then pictures of it later after it was retired from combat and renamed Chow Hound that show the flap/door was reinstalled. It must be related to the guns in the nose.
> 
> *It allows the door to close with the gear down.


My great uncle was a top turret gunner on the Tondelayo. He was SSgt. John (Jack) Murphy. We brought the Collins Foundation B-25 into town here in Columbus, Nebraska in 2003. Jack Murphy had passed away by then, but 2nd Lt. Lynn Daker came and "there was a rumor" that he was able to do a fly by. We had four veterans that were guests and were given free flights. Jack always had a sense of guilt about that mission of October 18, 1943.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Ronald Tredway (Oct 9, 2017)

Micdrow said:


> Morning guys, thought a few of you might be interested in this. I have been researching B-25's for a while now and have been finding a few with the 20mm cannon but this was the first I found both a documented statement in a combat log of the 90th bomb squadron and a picture. Picture is from B-25 Mitchell at war by Jerry Scutts.
> 
> View attachment 383325
> View attachment 383326


----------



## Ronald Tredway (Oct 9, 2017)

Juanita said:


> Micdrow,
> Please excuse me if I'm being a bit thick...but where is the 20mm cannon in the photo of 'Junior Bat'?
> Juanita


Yes, I couldn't pick out a 20mm either. Also, do you suppose the gear door might be left off to keep gun some out of the cockpit..act as a draft?


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 9, 2017)

Juanita said:


> Micdrow,
> Please excuse me if I'm being a bit thick...but where is the 20mm cannon in the photo of 'Junior Bat'?
> Juanita



Here you go Juanita and Ronald, you can see it inside the black circle.







You can see a better view on the gun arrangement in this picture of Johnny Pom Pom. The lower right is the 20mm cannon.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 9, 2017)

Juanita said:


> Wonderful collection of B-25 books you have there Micdrow!
> And I couldn't agree more with you Catch 22, regarding the PBJs. Great looking aircraft. I was very impress they were fitted with radar range finders late in the war. Apparently allow the cannon to be fired from a greater distance with more accuracy.
> Here is a profile of '8 Ball' from VMB-613.
> 
> ...



Great profiles there Juanita, did you create them? I will look when I get home and see if I can find any pictures there.


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 9, 2017)

bowfin said:


> My great uncle was a top turret gunner on the Tondelayo. He was SSgt. John (Jack) Murphy. We brought the Collins Foundation B-25 into town here in Columbus, Nebraska in 2003. Jack Murphy had passed away by then, but 2nd Lt. Lynn Daker came and "there was a rumor" that he was able to do a fly by. We had four veterans that were guests and were given free flights. Jack always had a sense of guilt about that mission of October 18, 1943.



Very cool, on my wish list is to some day fly in a B-25 if I can ever hit the lottery LOL. RIP to your great uncle. I have great respect for that generation and what they accomplished.

All the best
Paul


----------



## Wurger (Oct 9, 2017)

Nice stuff here guys.


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 9, 2017)

Bowfin you might this one interesting then  From the book B-25 by combat machines #2


----------



## Juanita (Oct 9, 2017)

Thanks for pointing that out, Paul (Micdrow).
With the covers over the guns its hard to spot. The barrel isn't much bigger than the cooling jackets of the .50 Brownings.
So its a 20 mm Oerlikon, or similar?

B-25 profiles: Yes, that's my work. Was first asked to draw some early variants a few years ago and bit by bit I have had opportunity to draw most models - its only the very late models, like the TB-25, B-25K and civil version that I've yet to do.
And bit by bit my knowledge and understanding of the type has increased.

The type has particular interest because it was prevalent in my part of the world (Australia) during WW2, including the early desperate days when the Japanese had the upper hand.

I wrote a story on 'Fat Cat' a few years ago, and read through the squadron diary...its heartbreaking, you get to know the folks in the unit, then suddenly 'bam' someone is gone.

Juanita


----------



## Old Wizard (Oct 9, 2017)




----------



## Micdrow (Oct 10, 2017)

Juanita said:


> Thanks for pointing that out, Paul (Micdrow).
> With the covers over the guns its hard to spot. The barrel isn't much bigger than the cooling jackets of the .50 Brownings.
> So its a 20 mm Oerlikon, or similar?
> 
> ...



Very cool Juanita on the profiles and the article on Fat Cat

As for the 20mm cannon my understanding was they used the Hispano 20mm cannon's taken from the bone yards or junk yards of wrecked P-38 lightning's that were laying around. I have found 4 or 5 so far with it installed. So far it looks like it was mainly used by the 13th and 90th bomb squadron though one was transferred over to the 345th bomb group. Still digging when I get a chance so that's what I have found so far with them.

It doesn't seem to be a too common item. Reading through the 90th bomb squadron reports some of them tell how much ammunition was used on a mission including those for 20mm cannon. So far I have found nothing to tell me how much ammo each plane can carry for the 20mm cannon.

All the best
Paul


----------



## Juanita (Oct 12, 2017)

Fascinating Paul. There are so many interesting details that go with the story of the B-25!

Despite my close study of the Strafer nose I missed/misinterpreted the 20 mm cannon installation...confused it for a different installation of the .5 guns.


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 12, 2017)

Juanita said:


> Fascinating Paul. There are so many interesting details that go with the story of the B-25!
> 
> Despite my close study of the Strafer nose I missed/misinterpreted the 20 mm cannon installation...confused it for a different installation of the .5 guns.



Thanks, this weekend I will try and find one of the pages talking about the 20mm cannon and how much ammo was expended on a mission just for your reference.

There where a ton of modifications on the B-25 in Australia. Simple stuff to major items but so far I have just concentrated on the 20mm cannons but they also did a bunch of conversations to the tail, waste gunner section, fuel system and such. The list goes on and on LOL


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 13, 2017)

Here you go Juanita, a page from the 90th bomb squadron, about half way you can see where it talks about how many rounds of 20mm cannon where used along with other ammunition.


----------



## Wurger (Oct 13, 2017)




----------



## Gnomey (Oct 13, 2017)

Good shots!

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Juanita (Oct 14, 2017)

Micdrow said:


> Here you go Juanita, a page from the 90th bomb squadron, about half way you can see where it talks about how many rounds of 20mm cannon where used along with other ammunition.



Very interesting Paul.

Yes, they certainly did a lot of work at Brisbane and Townsville. 

I only recently came across a photo of the field version (field-fit from a kit?) of the rear gun position. I had read about them but close up photos aren't common.
At a glance it looked the same as the 'H' rear gun position, but it was a very different fit and only carried a single .5mm gun.
I'm sure you're familiar with it.

Juanita


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 15, 2017)

Ive seen quite a few tail modifications but trying to figure out who and where they where done is quite hard at least for finding documantion.

Here is another document showing that the 13th bomber squadron used the 20mm cannon in there B-25's for a while.


----------



## fubar57 (Oct 15, 2017)

Good stuff Paul


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 15, 2017)

fubar57 said:


> Good stuff Paul



Thanks George


----------



## Juanita (Oct 16, 2017)

Micdrow said:


> Ive seen quite a few tail modifications but trying to figure out who and where they where done is quite hard at least for finding documantion.



This is the clearest photo I have seen of a field-installed rear gun position. Interesting that they retained the perspex tail glazing...although obviously trimmed it. I believe RAAF 2 Sqn was still operating B-25D right till the end of the war.

The description: Hughes, NT. 1945-07-19. 433732 Flight Sergeant R. A. McGregor, No. 2 Squadron RAAF of Tamworth, NSW, sits in the tail gun turret of a North American B-25 Mitchell bomber aircraft and looks out of his armour plated shielded position





Juanita


----------



## Juanita (Oct 16, 2017)

Micdrow said:


> Here is another document showing that the 13th bomber squadron used the 20mm cannon in there B-25's for a while.



Hi Paul
This extract is from 1943?
50 rounds of 20mm...that doesn't seem much in comparison to the amount of strafing they were doing. Was it a fairly slow firing device?
Juanita


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 17, 2017)

Juanita said:


> Hi Paul
> This extract is from 1943?
> 50 rounds of 20mm...that doesn't seem much in comparison to the amount of strafing they were doing. Was it a fairly slow firing device?
> Juanita



Correct Juanita that was in 1943. below info on the 20mm cannon which is slower firing than a 50 caliber machine gun which can fire around 750 to 850 rounds per minute compared to the 20mm cannon which is around 600 to 700 rounds per minute. Also you can carry less 20mm rounds due to the size of rounds and why I am trying to find out how many they carried.


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 17, 2017)

By the way great shot of the tail above, here are some other field designs used in the Pacific.


----------



## Wurger (Oct 17, 2017)




----------



## Micdrow (Oct 17, 2017)

I just noticed in your picture Juanita that it looks like the tail is sitting on the ground. Probably on the tail skid but I wonder why?


----------



## Juanita (Oct 17, 2017)

Paul
Many and varied jury-rigged designs going on the those tail gun positions! Most were new to me.
Not sure how the two without gunners position were intended to work...although one of them looks like it might have been controlled remotely.

I also wondered about the orientation of the aircraft in that photo I posted, however I think the photographer was elevated. Is there also something odd about the glazing too, the edge of the glazing (viewer's left) seems to disappear and the reflections are also not visible in that area. I think its only a trick of the light but it crossed my mind that it might be battle damage.

20mm Cannon: Even with that slower rate of fire, 50 rounds expended during a mission involving strafing is pretty low - not much more than needed for a gun check!! (I'm exaggerating slightly)

Juanita


----------



## Micdrow (Oct 18, 2017)

Juanita,

Actually the two with the bubble removed with the single and double machine guns where the first modifications done to the tail in the field. The gunner laid on his belly on a pad when shooting. The field of vision and fire where limited causing many designs in the field to be created to improve defensive capabilities of the B-25. As you can see with the twin arrangement it limited mobility even more but some crews sacrificed this for more fire power.

All the best
Paul

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------

