# Canada!



## plan_D (Sep 13, 2005)

I've been talking with a few Americans recently and I've come to realise they know nothing about what Canada did during the war. This is certainly no shot at America because I know that many other people haven't a clue either. I just want to put out a few numbers and facts about Canada during WWII - feel free to contribute NS, I know you'll love to. 

Canada, of 12 million, put 1.1 million people in uniform during World War II! It gave $4 Billion to it's over-seas Allies, and another $1 Billion to Britain. It never received aid from America. 

Production wise it was the largest supplier of war material to Britain during the entirety of the war. It built 850,000 military vehicles, 9,000 military vessels, 50,000 tanks, 16,000 aircraft as well as many other materials like synthetic rubber, electronics and ammo. It even produced Uranium for the Manhatten Project. 

In 1941 it was the second largest opponent to Hitler, second only to Russia. By 1945 it was the fourth largest Navy in the world. 

During the Battle of Britain 104 Canadians served, second only in foreign number to the Polish. These served in 242 Sqdn. and then spread throughout the others. The RCAF 1 Sqdn also took part, first on August 26th...this squadron was renamed to 401 (Ram) Sqdn. 

Canada was a vital part of the war effort!!!

There, I had my rant.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 13, 2005)

...I'm sorry PD, I'm still reeling from the fact that you actually give a sh*t about Canada's war contributions.

I've had this discussion with others before, and the reason hardly anyone knows or cares is actually pretty simple. We were a Commonwealth nation, and as such in those days we flew the Union Jack, wore British uniforms (with CANADA on the shoulder. The same can be said of other Commonwealth countries, with their respective names), and used British markings on mostly British designed (and sometimes built) equipment. To so many people, including many Americans, we were "British". A lot of people don't know, including many Brits. 

Simple.


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## plan_D (Sep 13, 2005)

Yes. I recognised many British people didn't understand that these people were from the Commonwealth or Free soldiers from defeated nations. Bomber Command was something up to 25% Canadian! 

I have to admit that I thought America was the biggest foreign supplier of war material. But nope, it was Canada! 

I read a funny story recently about the first time American troops saw New Zealanders. Of course the New Zealanders were in British uniforms and the Americans believed them to be British. One made the mistake of sayin' "Hiya, Limeys."  Safe to say, the Americans checked who they were talking to before making comments. 

And just because they were wearin' British uniforms it doesn't mean people should forget where they came from. I would give Australia and New Zealand in here but I don't know PRECISE numbers for those places. 

I thought you might react that I didn't mention Canada on D-Day (Juno beach being theirs, as you know) and their contribution to the Schedle offensive (which was basically all their own) and the sole fact that the liberation of Holland was largely a Canadian operation. 

Oh yeah, and just because I mock Canada all the time, you know it doesn't mean I hate it!!  I'm just as grateful, if not more, for Canada than America. Sorry, Yanks! Ah, I love you lot too. Except Joe...he's evil.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 13, 2005)

I believe the Commonwealth aren't thanked enough.

I heard something about the majority of Tungsten came from Australia in the 30's/40's?


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## evangilder (Sep 13, 2005)

Actually, plan_d, you are mostly correct. A lot of folks really have no idea that our neighbors to the north were very important in the allied efforts. When I have given presentations about different battles, I do mention the other nations that were involved. I made a special mention to the Canadian troops in my presentation on Operation Varsity. It was Monty's gameplane, but the Canadians were well involved in it with the US and UK troops.

Hollywood hasn't helped that situation, but we all know how they can and will skew history. Yet they still serve a purpose. If it stirs interest in WWII history, then it's good.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 13, 2005)

Canadians, and indeed Australians and New Zealanders too, were also heavily involved with the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm, both in terms of flying personnel and carrier crews. I'm not just talking about Canadians in the Royal Navy, but sailors from the Royal Canadian Navy, Royal Canadian Naval Reserve, and Royal Canadian Naval Volunteer Reserve. (I'll use Canada as the example, since it's a "Canada!" thread. Not to in any way diminish the tremendous contributions of the others. Plus it's just a lot simpler this way.  ). 

PD stated that by wars end we had one of the world's largest navies, which in terms of actual hulls is true, but most of those were actually small corvettes. We built and used a whack of 'em! This doesn't take away from the hard work and determinatiojn of those boys, but it just puts it in a better perspective for anyone thinking "Wow, Canada was a naval power?". Not exactly. Also, the numbers usually factor in all of the smaller auxiliary and gate vessels too. At it's wartime peak, the largest ships in the RCN were two light cruisers handed over to us by the British. They were HMCS Ontario and HMCS Uganda (later renamed HMCS Québec). 

In actual fact, it was the Royal Australian Navy who paid the heaviest price in human life out all the Commonwealth states, other than Great Britain.


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 13, 2005)

After WW2 Canada had the world's 4th largest navy as well!


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 13, 2005)

Yes, which was then mostly sold off. You'd never guess it, with the puny flotilla we have today.


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## plan_D (Sep 13, 2005)

If I had precise numbers on the other Commonwealth Nations - including the lesser known (Africans, Indians, Burmese etc.) then this would be called "Commonwealth!". 

What sparked this was a conversation with a very good friend of mine from Illinois. The conversation got on to the war and I mentioned Canada's help during the war, a passing statement that was replied with "Or lack thereof?" which led me to rant and rant and rant about what Canada did. And now you're all getting it too! I bet NS is loving this, aren't you?

Canada was the production heart of the war against Nazism throughout 1940. Combined with America there was an industry that no one could match. America is time and time again praised for a massive economy that won the war. But Canada is never mentioned, all of us here know why but we also know without them the Western effort against Germany would have been much less capable. Canada not only provided Britain with massive amounts of war material, but the Soviet Union felt good of Canada's production efforts. For instance all of Canada's Valentine tank production in Montréal went to the Soviet Union. 

The RCN defended the waters through the Atlantic to their extent of their range. After the "Atlantic Gap" these ships would be picked up by the Royal Navy. The RCN was one of the biggest contributors to the destruction of the Kriegsmarine. 

Canada itself was a country brimming with the trainees of other nations. Canada was safe and Britain used it to train many of it's men without disruption from the Italians, Germans or Japanese. 

Canadians even landed in France in 1940 and advanced toward Paris. They almost reached it too before the armistice was signed on June 22nd. This was done with the help of a British division. 

Canadians were active in the 6th Airborne division, dropping both on D-Day and on the Rhine. 

It's quite amazing that Canada is not shown as the massive power it was in those days. Because it was the power of production, Canada had it. Canada was, in my eyes, a super-power through economic power. The only reason, I think, it didn't get a permenant security seat on the U.N council is because it was part of the Commonwealth. Hell, it was much more deserving of a place than France!


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 13, 2005)

That "lack thereof" comment is a product of the modern global situation. Probably because we're not involved in Iraq. I've had "conversations" with a few people about that already. Looking at how we've allowed ourselves to fall economically (Canada) over the last half-century dis.gusts me to no end. This country had so much potential and we basically let it all go. The pattern continues. We've learned nothing from our past mistakes, and by the time we realize it it'll be too late.

But that _was_ an ignorant remark on his part just the same.


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## plan_D (Sep 13, 2005)

I forgot about the Canadians in the PTO and CBI. Aside from the Canadians defending Hong Kong there were other Canadians in the PTO and CBI theatres. They are little known but provided some vital man and machine power. 

In Singapore the memorial has 191 Canadian dead on it. The memorial in Rangoon has 51 dead Canadians mentioned. The British handed out 5537 Burma Stars to Canadians. Although I do not know the exact numbers, I do know that there were Canadians spread throughout the RAF squadrons in Burma, India and Ceylon. There were also some RCAF squadrons, as well as Canadians in RAAF squadrons. 

Most, if not all, Canadians in the CBI were in some air force. 

There are a few accounts of Canadian aerial success during the heavy air combat of Burma. There was even a Canadian that became an ace over Rangoon. 

There were also the Canadian Canso (Catalina) operating in the PTO and CBI. One such Canso from RCAF 413 Sqdn. spotted the IJN fleet just in time to save Ceylon. 

Probably the most important contribution by the Canadians in the CBI was the inclusion of it's two transport squadrons. RCAF 435 Sqdn and RCAF 436 Sqdn prided themselves on lifting more in their Dakotas than any other transport squadron in the CBI. 

In two weeks in Jan. 1945, RCAF 435 Sqdn lifted 2506 tons of cargo and 735 passengers and casualties. RCAF 436 Sqdn, in the whole month, lifted 3184 tons and 2362 passengers and casualties. In a single day, RCAF 435 Sqdn delivered 173 tons in 56 drops and 24 landings.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 13, 2005)

plan_D said:


> There were also the Canadian Canso (Catalina) operating in the PTO and CBI. One such Canso from RCAF 413 Sqdn. spotted the IJN fleet just in time to save Ceylon.


Len Birchall, the "Saviour of Ceylon". My grandad knew him personally, and did training with him at RCAF Dartmouth (now CFB Shearwater). He remained an honorary air commodore until his death only last year.

http://www.kingstonflyingclub.com/about_us_len_birchall.htm


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## plan_D (Sep 13, 2005)

A great man. As were all those that fought during the war!

And, tut-tut, it's "Saviour of Ceylon" - you're not American!  

It's okay, NS, this thread is for Canadians! You're allowed to speak real Canadian now.


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## evangilder (Sep 13, 2005)

Wow, Len sure has a lot of medals pinned on that uniform!


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## plan_D (Sep 13, 2005)

That's why he's leaning forward. They're weighing him down!


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 13, 2005)

plan_D said:


> And, tut-tut, it's "Saviour of Ceylon"


Agh! I hang my head in shame! Sorry Len, wherever you are.  

Edited. 


Lets hear from some Aussies and Kiwis on this stuff. This is getting interesting.
Any of me fellow Canucks got anything to add?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 13, 2005)

I agree Plan_D. It seems as though a lot of the so called "I Know Everything" historians on this site that are American think that the US won the war by itself. They dont realize that it was co op event and that everyone contributed a lot.


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## plan_D (Sep 13, 2005)

And who'd have thought I, of all people, would make this thread about the contributions of Canada. I bet that shocked you all. In fact, I reckon you all thought it was going to be something abusive towards Canada.


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## evangilder (Sep 13, 2005)

Yep, I was curious at you getting misty about Canada.


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## Gnomey (Sep 13, 2005)

The Canadians and the Commonwealth in general contributed a lot the allied war effort not only in production but also in the supply of troops, without the Commonwealth Britain would have run out of manpower rather than just suffering from shortages after D-day. It was a great team effort


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## Maestro (Sep 13, 2005)

plan_D said:


> Yes. I recognised many British people didn't understand that these people were from the Commonwealth or Free soldiers from defeated nations. Bomber Command was something up to 25% Canadian!



I knew that a lot Canadian pilots ended up in bombers, but I'm surprised that they were so many !


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 13, 2005)

Give this a read then. It's brief, but it gives you an idea. My grandfather flew with 419 and 434 Squadrons. 425 Sqn. was made up mostly of French-Canadians.

http://www.lancastermuseum.ca/contribution.html

This is a good read too.

http://www.junobeach.org/e/4/can-tac-air-bom-e.htm


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## Maestro (Sep 13, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> 425 Sqn. was made up mostly of French-Canadians.



Yep, even their Motto is in French. Thanks for the links, mate.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 13, 2005)

No problem. Those are just the RCAF bomber squadrons. There were Canadians with RAF squadrons as well, like the articles indicate, who'd been there from the beginning. Read the bit about Canadians in the Dams Raid, it's interesting. They also mention Flight Lieutenant Joe McCarthy, who was an American flying with the RCAF. There were several in the RCAF, and a few Canucks with the USAAF as well.

If you're interested, do some digging. There's all kinds of info out there.


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## Wildcat (Sep 14, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> Lets hear from some Aussies and Kiwis on this stuff. This is getting interesting.



OK here's some stats from the Aussie effort in WWII

Out of a Population of only 6.9million, 993 000 enlisted into the armed forces, with 575 799 serving over seas.
Australia spent 2,132,743,000 pounds on Defence Expenditure.

Casualties-
Battle related deaths 19 235
non battle related deaths 20 194
WIA 23 477
POW 28 756
POW deaths 8 031
Civilian deaths 735

Australian's fought against the Germans, Japanese, Italians and Vichy French in all theaters of the War. Some notable battles fought by Australians include - Battle of Britain, Tobruk, El Alamein, Crete, Syria, Matapan, Malaya and Singapore, Coral Sea, Bismarck Sea, Papua New Guinea, Bougainville, New Britain, Borneo, and Many many more.
Thousands of Aussies served with the RAF particulary Bomber Command, were 3 500 were KIA.

The Australian Army with the support of the RAAF were the first Allied force to defeat the Japanese on land at Milne Bay in New Guinea. RAAF Hudsons were the first Allied aircraft to engage the Japanese just hours before Pearl Harbour. (I'm talking at the start of the Pacific war not including the Chinese and flying Tigers).

Australia came under attack for the first time in its history when the Japanese launched 188 planes from the Akagi, Kaga, Soryu and Hiryu plus 54 land based bombers from Timor agaisnt Darwin on 19 Feb 1942. The raid cost 8 ships sunk plus 11 damaged with a total of 243 people killed. The only air opposition was from 10 brave American pilots in P-40's, all were shot down and only 4 survived (if my memory is correct) all were immediately decorated.
The Austarlian mainland was bombed for a total of 64 times. The Japanese also sent 3 midget Subs into Sydney Harbour killings 21 RAN sailors for the loss of all 3 subs and their crew. (Interestingly the Jap Sailors were all given a full military funeral and their ashes sent back home to thier families in Japan!! Too bad our boys didn't get the same treatment when they were butchered in the POW camps.), Sydney also suffered a few attacks by Naval bombardment with minor damage.

And there's my very brief overview of Australia in WWII.


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## plan_D (Sep 14, 2005)

Thank you. Got any information on production?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 14, 2005)

Very good info there on Australia. Wow I never knew that the mainland was attacked that much!


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## evangilder (Sep 14, 2005)

It's nice to see these. I knew that the commonwealth nations were involved, but seeing the numbers is what really drives it home. Great stuff, guys!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 14, 2005)

I agree, it would be nice to see info from all the nations.


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## trackend (Sep 14, 2005)

Maestro said:


> plan_D said:
> 
> 
> > Yes. I recognised many British people didn't understand that these people were from the Commonwealth or Free soldiers from defeated nations. Bomber Command was something up to 25% Canadian!
> ...



It appears that it was a real mixed bag with the common wealth service personel and units My uncle was a pilot in the Canadian Bison Squadron (Wellingtons) with a mixed Aussie,Pommie Kanuck crew.
My old man worked alot with the Canadian and US Ranger troops.
so I think it was so intergrated that it was as Maestro pointed out not regognised by UK civvies the numbers of oversea personnel involved.


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## RAGMAN (Sep 17, 2005)

I didn't know of the contributions of Canada in the Pacific Theatre! I have read and seen a lot of info on the contribution of Canada in Europe and the atom bomb project. As some of you have said WW2 was really a group effort.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 17, 2005)

Yes that it was. I believe Canada and Australia though were the 2 biggest besides the US and England. Russia does not count because we are talking about the commonwealths.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 17, 2005)

RAGMAN you're not alone. Even the Canadian government puts almost all emphasis on the European contributions and practically nothing is ever mentioned about the Pacific or CBI, other than Hong Kong early on. We were there. In many cases it was as part of RN or RAF units, but we were there. Read up on the Aleutians as well.

Getting back to Italy, have you ever heard of the First Special Service Force? It was an elite combined Canadian/American group (although mostly American) that fought in Italy. There was even an old Hollywood movie made about them (although it was typically completely inaccurate) called the Devil's Brigade.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=feature/italy99/backgrounders/special


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 17, 2005)

NS can you tell me some stuff about the Canadian stuff in the PTO. I also am not to up to date on that.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 17, 2005)

Admittedly, I'm not real good with many of the details myself at the moment, but go over the first page of this thread. PD and I go over some of it in brief.

Well, that and the fact that I'm too lazy to do a lot of typing right now.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 17, 2005)

Yeah I should have done that to begin with. I was just too lazy to go back to the first page. I know its just a click.


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## Wildcat (Sep 17, 2005)

Here's some info I found that might interest you Skim. Check out 

http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/ozatwar/canadiansinoz.htm

I imagine this would be relatively unknown info.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 17, 2005)

Thanks for the link mate. Interesting. I knew absolutely nothing about that, and I'd bet my pay that hardly anyone in Canada does these days. Good stuff.


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## Wildcat (Sep 17, 2005)

No probs mate! Indeed an interesting bit of Canadian/Australian military history.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 17, 2005)

I could not get it to load for somereason.


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## Dac (Sep 17, 2005)

Thanks fo the nod to Canada plan_D.

One of the things about the Canadian contribution to the war was it started from almost nothing.

At 191 Officers and 1,799 ratings in 1939, Canada had enough naval personel to crew one British BB with enough left over for a DD. I think the largest ship in the navy at the time was a Destroyer.

The Canadian Army had something like 8 tanks which were only fit for training. The Army had actually been downsized in the 1930s to save money. Sound familiar?

The RCAF had few modern aircraft but was expanding in the 30s'.

Canada had no real armaments industry before the war and a company that built washing machines in Toronto converted to Bren Guns as did a factory in Thunder Bay which before the war built railway boxcars but during the war built over 1,000 Hurricanes and about 900 SB2Cs for the U.S. Navy for example. Amazingly enough one of its' head designers was a woman. Wish I could remember her name.

All this changed Canada forever, with many Canadians leaving the rural areas to work in the cities.

As for the lost potential you talk about Nonskimmer, our lose was Americas' gain. In the 1950s' Canada had one on the best aerospace industries in the world. We built over 1,800 Sabres for our own and 10 other nations airforces. Avro Canada produced the all-weather CF-100 Canuck and was about to produce the CF-105 Arrow.
When our PM cancelled the Arrow in 1959, it killed Avro Canada and over 35,000 of some of the best aerospace workers in the world headed south to join NASA and American corporations. It was partly Canadian know-how that put Americans on the moon!

Oh Yah, I'd also like to lodge a complaint about the hypnotizing effect of trackends' animated icon


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 17, 2005)

Interesting post there. Canada was a good example of how a war can bring out the most of people.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 17, 2005)

Dac said:


> The Army had actually been downsized in the 1930s to save money. Sound familiar?


Very. 
Good post by the way. 

You'll get used to Lee's (trackend's) avatar. I find it to be rather calming.


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## plan_D (Sep 21, 2005)

Just from what I have recently learned about the Aleutians (I haven't finished studying it yet) - Canadians arrived in force during July and August 1942 with; 

_Air Support_ 
8th Recon Bomber Squadron 
111th Fighter Squadron 

Both arriving in July to aid in the bombardment of Kiska on August 7th. 

_Sea Support_

Canadian Auxiliary Cruisers - 

_Prince David, Prince Henry and Prince Robert_

Two Canadian Corvettes. 

In support of the landing operations on Adak (30th August). All five Canadian vessels were released from Task Group Tare and sent to the South Pacific.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 21, 2005)

> Read the bit about Canadians in the Dams Raid, it's interesting.



Yes, there were a load in 617 Sq IIRC?
I always consider them when I think 'Dambusters'.


I know this is going to sound coarse Wildcat and I really apologise, but I have to say it:

Maybe Australia didn't have a choice but to fight?

Believe me, no-one respects the Australians and their effort more than me, but without Britain, Japan could have taken Oz?

The fate would be much worse than what would happen to Britain or Russia unde the Nazis.

The British would have dented pride and a slight population loss.

The Russians would simply cease to exist and join the Aztecs.

But the Australians would have been mutilated, or worse before, slowly, dying.

However the Nazi's may have turned against the Japanese in aid of 'fellow Aryans' if that was the case maybe?

As I believe they would anyway?

Again, I'm very sorry if I offend anyone by saying that.


Dac

I think without the Canadians, the Manhattan project would have took, how long??

Sorry to mention tanks,  but it's something I know about Canadian production:

The Canadian Valentines built at something-or-other locomotive works were superior in armour protection build than the British versions.

Shedloads (shall I get the exact number?) were sent to Russia.

The Russians loved these, and considered them superior to the T34!  (even the Brit ones)

However, they thought the 2pdr was pants, so fitted their far superior 76mm.

These were, according to a Russian source, a huge factor in winning the Kursk battles. 8) 


Also I was told (by a gunsmith) that Australian SMLE's are far better than the indiginous ones.

Only they are orange wood instead of lovely walnut, and don't seem to look/smell/sound as nice.

Also all Ozzy Brens were Mk1's (better IMHO)

The Owen was a great SMG too, even in Malaya.

Don't think the Boomerang plane was too good though?


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## plan_D (Sep 21, 2005)

The Valentine tanks were built by Canadian Pacific in Montréal. They produced 1,420 vehicles of which all but 30 (which were retained for training) were delivered to the Soviet Union. Valentine marks VI, VII and VIIA were Canadian builds. 

The Valentines built in Canada were to U.S production standards. The VI was little different from the British built models. Changes included the nose plates being cast instead of bolted and a Browning .30 cal replaced the Besa MG of the originals. The VII changed the radio set and had internal changes. The VIIA had jettisonable fuel tanks, studded tracks and protective cages over headlamps. 

_"The Russians admired the robust and simple automative design of the 1940 British Mk.III Valentine, but were merely polite about the tank's main armament, which fell well below Eastern Front requirements. Some tanks had their main armament replaced by 76.2mm (3in) guns in factories in the USSR. The narrow tracks were also reported to be a problem in winter, first clogging with snow, then freezing, and immobilizing the vehicle."_

Quote from *Russian Tanks of World War II - Stalin's Armored Might* - Tim Bean and Will Flower. 

Technical information provided by *British and American Tanks of World War Two* - Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis.


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## Dac (Sep 21, 2005)

Some of the weapons produced in Canada wern't as good as the original. Canadian built Lancasters were heavier than British Lancs and performance suffered as a result. Canadian built naval radar wasn't as good as U.S. or British built radar also.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 21, 2005)

I don't think the weight difference was that significant between the Canadian and British built Lancasters. I've been looking for figures just out of curiosity. Canadian built Lancasters were also powered by Packard Merlins from the States, and this led to some performance issues earlier on. Not to dump on the Packard Merlins FJ, I've read through the thread on Packard vs. RR Merlins, but for _whatever_ reason it effected performance to a degree over the RR powered Lancs. At least at first. Still a damn good plane though, and well built.

In our own defence, and you mentioned this yourself Dac, Canada started the war at practically square one. It was a dead rush to set up production as well as build up the forces, and expertise was gained through the hard experience of trial and error in some cases, with mistakes made along the way. I think we did a helluva job, all things considered.


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## Dac (Sep 21, 2005)

By the end of the war they had most of the bugs worked out. It still amazes me when I think about where Canada was in 1939 and where we ended up in 1945.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 21, 2005)

Yes, from a tiny squadron of vessels to the third or fourth largest navy in the world (Sources vary. I'm still not entirely sure myself after all these years.), right back to a tiny squadron of ships. He giveth, and he taketh away.


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## Dac (Sep 22, 2005)

With a big brother like the U.S. living next door I guess we get a little lazy about national security here in Canada.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 22, 2005)

Yeah just a little, and certainly national defence. I'll say it again, it's going to bite us hard in the ass one day. The way the world is these days, it may be sooner than we think too.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 23, 2005)

It is true like most nations Canada rose from the ashes of WW2 a very powerful nation compared to what it was in 1939.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 25, 2005)

Cheers for that PlanD!  



> Changes included the nose plates being cast instead of bolted



That's the main improvement - shot could send the nut/bolt pinging round the hull like a KE round on the UK versions.

Also, the joints were weaker.



> Some of the weapons produced in Canada wern't as good as the original.



Hey, don't do yorself Dac!  



> Not to dump on the Packard Merlins FJ, I've read through the thread on Packard vs. RR Merlins, but for whatever reason it effected performance to a degree over the RR powered Lancs.



I suppose the way to sort that would be Spitfire IX vs Spit XVI performance figures?



> I think we did a helluva job, all things considered.



Damn right!



> Yes, from a tiny squadron of vessels to the third or fourth largest navy in the world (Sources vary. I'm still not entirely sure myself after all these years.), right back to a tiny squadron of ships.



Well at least when needs must.

You didn't have to help either, thats very heroic IMHO.



> I'll say it again, it's going to bite us hard in the ass one day.



Internal security's what matters now.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 25, 2005)

Didn't have to help? We weren't about to sit it out. Not only was Canada a firm part of the British Empire (as well as the Commonwealth), but the national attitude was extremely pro-Empire back then, with the exception of Québec. Even so, hundreds of young Québécois men volunteered to fight. Believe it or not though, it was actually debated in the Canadian parliament. We didn't actually declare war on Germany until one week to the day after Britain and France did. September 10th 1939. 

One interesting thing that many Canadians don't really like to look back upon, and indeed many don't really know about, is the fact that in the days leading up to war the Canadian prime minister had refused Churchill's request to allow British fighter pilots to train in the safety of Canada. It was only later that the Commonwealth Air Training Plan was approved. If MacKenzie King (Canada's prime minister) had allowed British pilots to train here earlier, then perhaps - just perhaps - there wouldn't have been quite the mad rush for pilots at the early stages of the war. It was one of those "Oops!" kind of things. King could be a stubborn man.


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