# The Paranormal, Unusual Happenings?



## Alex . (Sep 15, 2013)

An interesting subject for me, and one that is often tied with aviation, and warfare in general, is anything paranormal or unusual happenings (Moments of sheer luck or chance)

I'm sure this'll be either be a success or a complete fail, but I'd be interested if any of you guys had any stories to share or know of any such happenings. Even if you don't believe they are an enjoyable read none the less!

The reason I post this is after a shift at work, we had a psychic evening (I work in a pub/restaurant, we get special events every now and then) and I spoke with a medium I'd never met or spoke to, who spoke of things very close to me. One being the recent death of a military man with a respiratory/chest problem...my uncle who was a RAF veteran passed away earlier this year from heart disease...The whole experience, while most likely rubbish and played on through my reactions has left me completely speechless! A very odd experience, but reassuring.

Aviation wise, I have RAF Cosford a short distance away, and an aircraft in the museum, a Lincoln RF398 is supposedly haunted by the ghost of a navigator. Funnily enough, my uncle above would have vouched for the stories having worked there for a good 30 years! Interesting video and their unique take on keeping at Cosford can be seen here...


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IBiBaPrD5U_

Looking forward to any stories you guys may have, or not....


Alex


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## Readie (Sep 20, 2013)

I'm not sure quite what to make of the psychic and paranormal Alex. It seems very real to those who have experianced it but, the nearist I have come to any experiance like that is premonitions. By, that I mean a sixth sense telling me that this is either going to end badly or that'll be the last time I see that person alive.


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## stona (Sep 20, 2013)

I've had some photo-etch levers from my Tempest cockpit mysteriously de-materialise from my work bench.......does that count?
Steve


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## Airframes (Sep 20, 2013)

I've had a few strange experiences in the past (and no, I don't mean with Hippocroccofrog's, before you say anything Jan!), but Evan (A4K) is the one to talk to. 
Hopefully, he'll be back on the forum once he's settled after his move from Hungary to Ireland. (sent him an e-mail a day ago, but haven't heard back yet).


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## Readie (Sep 20, 2013)

I find 'being in it together' a paranormal experience... others, like our esteemed leaders claim to 'be in it' but, in actual fact are not 'in it' at all.... funny that eh.


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## meatloaf109 (Sep 20, 2013)

O.K., I will answer the "spirit" of this thread.
Yes, I have had several experiences over the years. This is just one.
I lived in a house that was haunted by, what I assume to be, the former owner of the house. I occupied the basement room that was next to what was his workshop.
Every night at around 3:00am I would hear power tools, saws, and some banging, like someone hammering on a bit of woodworking mostly. Not loud, but enough that several "visitors" (female) heard them also. I am always curious, so I went into the space immediately, upon which, the sound quit. I have the confirmation of two of the "visitors" who know that there were no tools being used, nor were any tools present in the former shop. Only one of my "visitors" ever came back. She was a self-proclaimed "Witch" and she said she could help the spirit to move on. 
She failed. The "ghost" continued to be a 3:00am worker every night. I was intrigued by the whole experience, and tried to figure out a rational explanation to the whole thing.
I tried several different situations where I waited for different time intervals before investigating. You know, just to see if it was a pump or something. Nope, every time the sound would stop just as I got to the door. Now, here's where it gets really creepy. I had a dining room set that I was not using, and my friend (who I was renting from), said that I could use the former workshop to store it. We stacked the set in the usual furniture movers way; table in the corner and chairs in a nesting form on top. The next day I found the table and chairs in the center of the room with the chairs balanced one on top of the other. Now, I know that not only could my friend could not do this himself, but the basic balancing was impossible. As soon as I touched them, they fell to the floor. I wish that I had taken a picture, but at the time I was just too freaked out.
There are those that will distain what I experienced, but to them, I say; wait until you experience something yourself! Then come talk to me!


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## Airframes (Sep 21, 2013)

Well, this one is bang up to date, as it only happened a couple of weeks back.
I recently bought a refurbished, 'pre-owned' electric mobility scooter, one of those small, four-wheeled jobbies that fold up to go into a car boot, rather like an undernourished golf cart.
To comply with the law, and to prevent me going Rs over t*t on the uneven footpaths in my town, I fitted a couple of small cycle lamps, white to the front, red to the rear. They're the kind where the bracket is designed to go around the handle bars of a cycle, in this case 'Blunderbird One', my 'scooter', and tighten up with a nut and bolt. The lamps themselves can then be fitted or removed at will, employing a simple quick release clip.
Well, the lamps were fitted, and the 'ring' brackets were secure, and couldn't be removed unless a spanner (wrench) and screw driver were employed - they were tight.
The following morning, I came downstairs, and went into the kitchen, where the scooter is 'parked', out of the way, in line with the door to outside. There, lying on the floor, is the front lamp, still attached to it's bracket !
WTF, I thought!
On close inspection, the nut and bolt were nowhere to be seen - anywhere at all in the room!
B*ll*cks to this, thought I, and dug out a box containing various nuts, bolts and other bits, whereupon I selected a longer bolt of the correct gauge, and re-attached the bracket to the scooter, ensuring it was properly fastened, and could not fall off, or be removed, unless the correct tools were employed to do so.
That evening, I went out to the local 'late shop', about 500 yards from my house, when the light worked as intended, and the bracket stayed put, with no vibration or movement.
On my return, I checked that the bracket was still secure (it was) and, eventually, I went to bed.
Next morning, I again found the lamp, still attached to the bracket, lying on the floor, this time with the bolt, and nut, still attached !!
"**** this !", I thought, and once again re-attached the bracket, lamp, nut and bolt, and this time wrapped the whole lot with strong, black insulating the tape, the kind that sticks like s**t to a blanket, using enough to make an Egyptian embalmer proud.
Next morning, the lamp and bracket were still attached to the scooter, but the assembly had moved, as if someone, or something, had tried to wrench it off, without success. 
Today, it's still attached, but every morning, it's moved!
Now, there might be, and probably is, a rational explanation to all this, and I hadn't even considered any other reasons. Until my mate Steve, who calls in every evening on his way home from work, asked me where I got the scooter.
I told him it was a pre-owned, re-furbished example, whereupon he commented that maybe the original owner had popped his/her cloggs, and was p*ssed off with me for sticking a lamp on what had been their property.
You never know ..............


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## Capt. Vick (Sep 21, 2013)

Before my current job, I worked for a company that was run buy a Swiss family. So naturally they had a lot of stuff hanging around the office to remind them of the old country and one of these items was a Swiss Air calender that hung in the front office. Anyway, back in 1998 Swiss Air flight 111 (IIRC) went down in the North Atlantic off the coast of Nova Scotia with the loss of all souls. The calender picture for that month was Peggy's Cove, Nova Scotia...where they were to shortly have all the memorial services. I have always wanted to get my hands on a copy of that calender. Weird.


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## Alex . (Sep 21, 2013)

Glad to see some replies over here! 



Readie said:


> I'm not sure quite what to make of the psychic and paranormal Alex. It seems very real to those who have experianced it but, the nearist I have come to any experiance like that is premonitions. By, that I mean a sixth sense telling me that this is either going to end badly or that'll be the last time I see that person alive.



I'm still skeptical of it, the medium could have based everything he did through my body language/reactions, but how he described my uncle was really odd, and had me a little baffled. Considering I was saying it was a load of rubbish beforehand, it's made me think again. Unfortunately I can't claim to have seen or heard anything paranormal, but have always had a fascination with the sightings and the story behind them.

A road close to me is where one of Guy Fawkes' fellows fled from the army, they had their 'last stand' at Holbeache House, Wall Heath (Complete with musket hole in the doorway) The whole area is supposedly haunted by the group, and the sound of galloping hooves is supposed to be heard late at night along the disused railway tracks. It has one of those very unsettling feelings of being watched walking along late at night...


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## daveT (Sep 21, 2013)

Aviation and Ghost related, Here you go...But be fore warned, this is a true scary story!

*P-2V Neptune Crash site photo 1954*






The Passing 

by Dave Trojan
When an inquiring researcher went in search of an old aircraft crash
site he uncovered something unexpected and very unusual. This story cannot
be fully explained and it contains too many things that coincide with the
known facts to just be dismissed. This is a story where fiction meets fact.
If you're a hardened skeptic, bear with me. No ghost is going to show itself
to someone with a closed mind.
According to common definitions, a ghost is the spirit of a dead
person. A spirit can manifest itself in various ways and in numerous places.
Certain people or situations bring out a need for an apparition to appear.
The International Ghost Hunting Society says, “Ghosts are not fragmented
souls cursed to roam the land. They're here by choice. Ghosts don't wear
sheets, and only rarely do they look like see-through people.” According to
the ghost hunters, they usually look like strands of vapor called ectoplasm
when they're in motion. When they're not moving, they resemble balls of
light. A ghost is applied to an apparition, usually of a dead person, that
varies in apparent solidity from a mere fog like mass to a perfect replica of
the person. Ghosts tend to haunt their favorite places where they feel most
comfortable.
You do not need to go as far as a cemetery to see a ghost. All one has
to do is keep an open mind and visit likely haunted places. One such place
exists nearby at the now closed Barbers Point Naval Air Station.
This ghost story begins during the Korean War and still continues
today. Patrol Squadron (VP) Seven was the only Atlantic Fleet patrol
squadron to deploy to the Korean War zone arriving less than one month
before the armistice on 27 July 1953 from Naval Air Station (NAS)
Quonset Point, R.I. VP-7 was equipped with P2V-5 Neptune patrol aircraft
and was based at NAS Iwakuni, Japan, from which the squadron patrolled
the Sea of Japan and the Yellow Sea. Navy patrol aircraft flew throughout
the Korean area of operations, and participated in mine-laying, weather
reconnaissance and search and rescue operations keeping merchant shipping
and fishing fleets under surveillance and deterring hostile submarine
activity.
While passing through on its way home after the Korean War, the
eight-man crew of a P2V-5 Neptune Patrol aircraft belonging to Patrol
Squadron Seven (VP-7) made a missed approach trying to land at NAS
Barbers Point Hawaii on Jan. 21, 1954. A missed approach is when an aircraft
is caused to abort a landing after it has already started its landing approach,
the aircraft is then suppose to follow a set path to leave the airspace
surrounding the airfield. Unfortunately, the VP-7 crew was unfamiliar with
the area and turned left towards the mountains.
The aircraft crashed into the Waianae Mountain range at
approximately 9:30 p.m. on a cool and cloudy January night. All aboard the
aircraft were killed. These men could be considered some of the last
casualties of the Korean War because they never made it home after the
war had ended. The eight crewmen aboard were: Lt. J.G. Walter J. Hanzo
Jr., pilot; Ens. Gerald Martin Hazlett, Ens. Wilbur D. Cooper, ADC John
Robert Staples, AD2 Joseph Daniel Beczek, AM2 Paul Martin Kohler, AT2
Joseph Michael Maksymon and AT3 Richard Knuton Brown.
The remains of the aircraft still rest in the Waianae Mountains.
Evidence of the traumatic crash and fire can still be seen today on the
fuselage and various parts that were left behind at the crash site. The
proper authorities removed the remains of the crew at the crash site, but
one soul may never have rested. The crash site was consecrated with the
blood of the dead crewmembers making it a sacred site. The original crash
site was located and investigated by amateur archeologists in August 2003.
The site was photographed and the findings were reported in a local
newspaper Hawaii Navy News. The wreck may be just a mere curiosity to
some, but for others, they find themselves in the presence of history,
transfixed wondering what happened and why. At the same time the
investigation was going on at the site, strange things started happening at
Barbers Point, and were brought to the attention of the researchers.
The ghost of one of the crewmembers may be still standing watch on
the base waiting for his aircraft and fellow crewmembers to arrive. If the
aircraft had successfully landed at NAS Barbers Point it would have taxied
and parked in an area of the flight line that is now occupied by the Hawaii
Air Museum. The ghost is believed to be of AD2 Joseph Daniel Beczek. Is
it possible that he is waiting to repair his aircraft so that he can go home?
Several witnesses have seen a ghostly figure of a man in old style dungarees
standing in and around the Hawaii Air Museum area. The figure has been
seen walking, standing and roaming around on the flight line near the
museums parked aircraft waiting anxiously for something. Passerby’s have
questioned why there is still a Sailor standing watch on the now closed base.
Strange lights have also been seen in the same area. A Security Officer has
reported that after turning off a radio at the museum, upon returning later,
the radio was on again, tuned to the local oldies radio station. No one had
been in the area.
The Museum occasionally has school children tour the aircraft in their
collection for educational purposes. During some of these tours strange
things have happened. School children on the field trips to the museum have
reported “someone” in the restroom, but upon investigation no one was there.
The kids could not explain what, only that they felt someone was in there.
The restroom is located right next door to the museum’s machine shop
where most of the sightings have occurred.
Most occurrences have been reported by volunteer mechanics that
work at the museum in the evenings. They have reported feelings of being
watched and other strange occurrences, which usually transpire during cool
quiet nights after 9:00pm, the same time as the accident. Strands of
moving vapor and moving shadows have been reported. When one of the
volunteers started working at the museum a couple of years ago he first
thought that it was nothing. However, the feelings grew and until he
realized something was going on. The feelings are hard to explain. Some
sense of fear or anxiety is always present when the ghost is about to
manifest itself. On occasion, the volunteers felt like they were not welcome
and should not stay and work that evening. That was all the encouragement
they needed, they departed immediately. Some encounters are more
frightening than others, but the volunteer mechanics always go back to the
workshop.
The ghost may be attracted to the energy in the machine shop. The
machine shop is built upon the site of the area where they parked transit
aircraft that were passing through. One recently reported several
“encounters” with the ghost. A machinist who volunteers there has reported
that he saw a perfect replica of a person that he believes to be a ghost.
The ghost walked right into the machine shop and over to a metal lathe and
stood there. The ghost looked upon the metal lathe like he knew how to use
it. The volunteer confronted the manifestation and asked, “Who are you!”
The ghost replied that he was Joseph Beczek. Then he asked, “Why are you
here and what do you want?” The ghost replied, “You already know why I’m
here and what I want.” When asked later what he thought the ghost meant
by this answer the volunteer said that he believes that the ghost does not
want to be forgotten. When questioned why the ghost has shown himself, he
believes that the ghost became familiar and comfortable with the mechanic
who was just like himself, an aircraft machinist.
Upon investigation of this story some very interesting and shocking fact emerged...

END OF PART 1

*Haunted hanger at NAS Barbers Pt
Picture of the latte in the machine shop
Picture of the man believed to be the ghost
*


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## daveT (Sep 21, 2013)

Part 2, The story continues...

Upon investigation of this story some very interesting and shocking
facts emerged. AD2 Joseph Beczek was in fact the engine mechanic aboard
the ill-fated aircraft. He would have been trained on and would have known
how to use the old metal lathe that is located at the museum. In fact, the
metal lathe at the museum is very old and dates to the late forties and early
fifties, the same time period as the accident and is used for metal working
aircraft parts. Ghosts usually haunt places not where they died, but where
they felt comfortable when they were living. The machine shop at the
Hawaii Air Museum is a perfect place for the ghost of a machinist to hang
around. The ghost chose the Hawaii Air Museum by choice because that is
where he feels most comfortable. The ghost must be reluctant to leave this
earthly paradise or he may not know that he has passed.
Upon review of the original accident report other facts correspond to
the stories told by witnesses of the ghost. The aircraft departed late from
Japan on its long journey home due to an engine change. AD2 Joseph Beczek
would have been the main person doing the work and ensuring all was correct.
The ghost may feel some responsibility for the delay and subsequent crash.
The guilt may have prevented the soul of the ghost from resting in peace.
Disturbing the crash site during the archeological investigation may have
awakened the ghost and made him more full of life in his haunts.
The machinist who works at the museum did not know the whole story
of the aircraft crash and who Joseph Beczek was. Only after he related his
encounter with the ghost to the researcher did he learn the whole story of
the crash. How could he have known so many facts that matched the original
accident report, which only recently came to light? Overall, the volunteers
that work at the museum have learned to live with the ghost. They believe
that the ghost means them no harm and just wants to be remembered and
not pass into history. The legacy of the men and some of their aircraft live
on at the Hawaii Air Museum at Barbers Point. Illuminating the stories of
the brave men and their flying experiences is to honor them. They continue
to live through their stories. Ghosts like their stories to be told because it
means they are not forgotten. If you visit the museum on a cool quiet night
you may find yourself in the presence of the supernatural. A plaque
dedicated to the lost crew is located behind the base chapel next to a tree
planted in their memory.
*Recent Pictures from the crash site
Picture of the memorial *


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## Readie (Sep 22, 2013)

'It has one of those very unsettling feelings of being watched...'

Alex, I understand that. There is a disused branch railway line that ran from PLymouth to Yealmpton. The spooky bit is between Puslinch Bridge and Warren Point. To say its unsettling is an understatement....
I lived in Yealmpton and used to walk the dogs around that area and others felt the same as me... cannot quite put my finger on 'why', and I cannot find any stories that would make this stretch of track 'haunted'.
Very odd.
I haven't been back there for 20 plus years and one day I took my lad and our two Labradors there. The dogs were nervous and my lad didn't like it... so, its not just me.

Plymouth to Yealmpton Branch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Ramblers : Local Groups


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## GrauGeist (Sep 22, 2013)

Two experiences come to mind for me here, one is my car (no, not my Scion, though I was almost a ghost in that one) which is a 1962 Chevy Nova400.
Back in 1986, a friend was taking it to the salvage yard because he was giving up on it. Never could get it to work properly and neither could the several owners before him, it being passed from one to another since it's tragic wreck in the 1970's that cost it's owner's life. After I got it, I started the process of getting it back on the road and it ran well for me. It still bore testimony to the terrible accident in areas concealed by fenders and such, but little by little, repaires were being made.
Several years after getting it, I was driving it on my way to work one morning and had come to an intersection. When the light turned green, I stepped on the gas to go and the Nova started to accelerate but before clearing the crosswalk, it suddenly stalled. And by stalling, I mean completely dead as if the ignition were cut off and it just stopped stock-still. Just as that happened, a cement mixer thundered through the intersection against the red, right where I would have been had the car not stopped.
As soon as the mixer was clear, the car lurched forward, engine on again as if nothing had happened.

The other experience was at the ancient Roman city of Herculaneum, in Italy. Unlike Pompeii, Herculaneum lost quite a few of it's citizens during Vesuvius' eruption, dying in a horrible way. During my visit there, I experiences different sensations ranging from a feeling of being watched, to the sensation of something or someone close by. In several cases, I caught movement out of the corner of my eye when photographing in in the homes and shops. When I'd turn to look, nobody was there and the majority of those instances of seeing movement or a fleeting glimpse of someone/something were in areas that were off limits to visitors (barred or roped off). In a few places, there was even a sense of dread or sorrow. Hard to describe, really.

I know some ghost stories are BS or sensationalism, but there are some very real things going on out there that simply cannot be explained. I've had people tell me there's no proof that they exist and I'll tell them that no has proved that they don't


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## mikewint (Sep 22, 2013)

I guess once again I be the wet blanket in the group. Spent years in places where hundreds of men died or had died horribly. Never once had any reason to think/feel/believe "spirits" were present. Never saw/heard/felt/smelled/tasted anything even vaguely "para"normal. As to "proving" the none existance of ghost/spirits well you can prove an elephant isn't in your closet, but that's because it's that particular place. Can you PROVE that striped elephants don't exist? In order to do so you'd have to be able to check every place in the world, and every possible elephant. Even then, it wouldn't be proof, because you may have missed it. 
Proving that elephants DO exist simply requires finding ONE so one CAN prove that things exist; but you can't PROVE that they don't. 
Now a reasonably educated person certainly has reasons to doubt the existance of a purple elephant -- since that's just not a color critters like that come in; but it's not proof. 
Proving existance is possible so you can prove you have a pen, but can you prove the pen doesn't think or feel? But then there's no reason to think it does, and much reason to think it doesn't; thus, the reasonable person would reject the belief even without evidence.
Any study of the human brain and its workings reveals our tenous grasp of ALL of the things going on around us and how narrowly we focus. And when full sensory data is lack the brain fill in the missing data without a bit of hesitation


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## Alex . (Sep 22, 2013)

Readie said:


> 'It has one of those very unsettling feelings of being watched...'
> 
> Alex, I understand that. There is a disused branch railway line that ran from PLymouth to Yealmpton. The spooky bit is between Puslinch Bridge and Warren Point. To say its unsettling is an understatement....
> I lived in Yealmpton and used to walk the dogs around that area and others felt the same as me... cannot quite put my finger on 'why', and I cannot find any stories that would make this stretch of track 'haunted'.
> ...


 


GrauGeist said:


> The other experience was at the ancient Roman city of Herculaneum, in Italy. Unlike Pompeii, Herculaneum lost quite a few of it's citizens during Vesuvius' eruption, dying in a horrible way. During my visit there, I experiences different sensations ranging from a feeling of being watched, to the sensation of something or someone close by. In several cases, I caught movement out of the corner of my eye when photographing in in the homes and shops. When I'd turn to look, nobody was there and the majority of those instances of seeing movement or a fleeting glimpse of someone/something were in areas that were off limits to visitors (barred or roped off). In a few places, there was even a sense of dread or sorrow. Hard to describe, really.



That feeling of being watched - I work in a restaurant, so after closing time we go around and get everything set up for the next day, and often get the feeling that there's someone there/watching me. I guess it's because we associate places like that like; restaurants, pubs, schools and towns as being areas of activity and when it's abandoned you almost expect for someone to be around... 

Interesting stories guys, another one aviation similar to yours Grau, Flight 401 



> Perhaps the most extraordinary and credible research into the ghost phenomenon ever documented is the so-called "Ghosts of Flight 401." On December of 1972, an Eastern Airlines Tri-Star jetliner, Flight 401, crashed into a Florida swamp. The pilot, Bob Loft (on the left), and flight engineer Don Repo (on the right), were two of the 101 people who perished in the air crash. Not long after the crash, the ghosts of Loft and Repo were seen on more than twenty occasions by crew members on other Eastern Tri-Stars, especially those planes which had been fitted with parts salvaged from the Flight 401 wreckage. The apparitions of Loft and Repo were invariably described as being extremely lifelike. They were not only reported by people who had known Loft and Repo, but their ghosts were also subsequently identified from photographs by people who had not known Loft and Repo.
> 
> The strange tales of the ghostly airmen of Flight of 401 circulated in the airline community. An account of the paranormal happenings even appeared in a 1974 US Flight Safety Foundation's newsletter. John G. Fuller, the best-selling author of The Ghost of Flight 401, carried out an exhaustive investigation into the hauntings with the aid of several cautious airline personnel. A mass of compelling testimony was produced as a result. The website Flight 401 – The Black Box Story provides an account of the crash as told using material from the Black Box. It highlights how poor cockpit resource management caused a tiny light bulb to distract the pilots and bring down a Tristar jetliner.
> 
> ...



From Ghosts of Flight 401 | Apparitions | Afterlife | After-Death Communications | John G. Fuller


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## mikewint (Sep 22, 2013)

In 1922, Scientific American offered two US $2,500 offers: (1) for the first authentic spirit photograph made under test conditions and (2) for the first psychic to produce a "visible psychic manifestation." Harry Houdini was a member of the investigating committee. For several year many very well known Mediums were tested but none produced verifiable phenomena.
Before Houdini died, he and his wife agreed that if Houdini found it possible to communicate after death, he would communicate the message "Rosabelle believe". Bess held yearly séances on Halloween for ten years after Houdini's death. In 1936, after a last unsuccessful séance on the roof of the Knickerbocker Hotel, she put out the candle that she had kept burning beside a photograph of Houdini since his death. In 1943, Bess said that "ten years is long enough to wait for any man."
Richard Wiseman, of The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry, draws attention to possible alternative explanations for perceived paranormal activity in his article, The Haunted Brain. While he recognizes that approximately 15% of people believe they have experienced an encounter with a ghost, he reports that only 1% report seeing a full-fledged ghost while the rest report strange sensory stimuli, such as seeing fleeting shadows or wisps of smoke, or the sensation of hearing footsteps or feeling a presence. Wiseman makes the claim that, rather than experiencing paranormal activity, it is activity within our own brains that creates these strange sensations.
A psychological study involving 174 members of the Society for Psychical Research completed a delusional ideation questionnaire and a deductive reasoning task. As predicted, the study showed that "individuals who reported a strong belief in the paranormal made more errors and displayed more delusional ideation than skeptical individuals". There was also a reasoning bias which was limited to people who reported a belief in, rather than experience of, paranormal phenomena. The results suggested that reasoning abnormalities may have a causal role in the formation of paranormal belief.
Former stage magician James Randi is a well-known investigator of paranormal claims. As an investigator with a background in illusion, Randi feels that the simplest explanation for those claiming paranormal abilities is often trickery. The James Randi Educational Foundation offers a prize of a million dollars to a person who can prove that they have supernatural or paranormal abilities under appropriate test conditions agreed to by both parties. Despite many declarations of supernatural ability, this prize remains unclaimed. Several other skeptic groups also offer cash prizes for proof of the paranormal, including the largest group of paranormal investigators, the Independent Investigations Group, which has chapters in Hollywood, Atlanta, Denver, Washington D.C., Alberta, B.C. and San Francisco. The IIG offers a $50,000 prize and a $5,000 finders fee if a claimant can prove a paranormal claim under 2 scientifically controlled tests. Founded in 2000 no claimant has passed the first (and lower odds) of the test.


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## GrauGeist (Sep 22, 2013)

People once believed that the world was flat, too...

In otherwords, there's things out there in the world that we don't understand and as such, tend to disregard as "impossible" or "no such thing".

While there is a huge percentage of occurances are easily explained or even downright BS, there is that small percentage that goes beyond our ability to comprehend...


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## gumbyk (Sep 22, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> People once believed that the world was flat, too...
> 
> In otherwords, there's things out there in the world that we don't understand and as such, tend to disregard as "impossible" or "no such thing".
> 
> While there is a huge percentage of occurances are easily explained or even downright BS, there is that small percentage that goes beyond our ability to comprehend...



Like?


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## meatloaf109 (Sep 22, 2013)

mikewint said:


> I guess once again I be the wet blanket in the group. Spent years in places where hundreds of men died or had died horribly. Never once had any reason to think/feel/believe "spirits" were present. Never saw/heard/felt/smelled/tasted anything even vaguely "para"normal. As to "proving" the none existance of ghost/spirits well you can prove an elephant isn't in your closet, but that's because it's that particular place. Can you PROVE that striped elephants don't exist? In order to do so you'd have to be able to check every place in the world, and every possible elephant. Even then, it wouldn't be proof, because you may have missed it.
> Proving that elephants DO exist simply requires finding ONE so one CAN prove that things exist; but you can't PROVE that they don't.
> Now a reasonably educated person certainly has reasons to doubt the existance of a purple elephant -- since that's just not a color critters like that come in; but it's not proof.
> Proving existance is possible so you can prove you have a pen, but can you prove the pen doesn't think or feel? But then there's no reason to think it does, and much reason to think it doesn't; thus, the reasonable person would reject the belief even without evidence.
> Any study of the human brain and its workings reveals our tenous grasp of ALL of the things going on around us and how narrowly we focus. And when full sensory data is lack the brain fill in the missing data without a bit of hesitation


As an atheist, I can dig the "Your personal experience/ feelings" as not reasonable proof. Absolutely. That is why I had several other people experience the phenomenon. 
I remain a disbeliever in most things, and I am a firm Nonbeliever in any religion,...But the fact remains that some one, or something, works in that shop every night.
If you would like to come to North Carolina, and we could possibly convince the current occupants of this house to let us spent the night, well, you would become, maybe not a believer, but you may have another thought.
I have watched the "For Rent" listings here locally, and this place has been up every couple of months.


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 23, 2013)

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/ghost-polaris-academy-6840.html#post221295


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## mikewint (Sep 23, 2013)

Paul, I dearly wish I lived closer 'cause we'd be going to that ghostly workshop. I am not fool enough to think/believe that I know all the workings of the universe and I firmly believe that the universe is not only queerer than I imagine but that it is queerer than I can imagine.
All that being said the universe is not exempt from the Laws of Thermodynamics.
#1. Energy can neither be created or destroyed though it can change form and flow from place to place
#2 Generally refered to as ENTROPY. The second law refers to a wide variety of processes, reversible and irreversible. All natural processes are irreversible. Reversible processes are a convenient theoretical fiction and do not occur in nature. Thus the entropy of a system always increases. Local energy expenditures can reverse entropy for a time but only with the constant expenditure of energy. You, mind/consciousness/spirit? are a highy organized state and are only maintained by energy expenditure. Eventually those systems (also subject to entropy) fail and the organized state ceases. A ghost/spirit would be an organized state. What supplies the energy? Where does it cme from? and how does it reverse entropy? 
While one cannot prove a negative Occams razor favors the simplest explanation. Out of 2.5 million VC/NVA ghosts one would expect at least one haunting


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## daveT (Sep 24, 2013)

*A spirited past: Ghost hunt in Prairie Mississippi searches for evidence to prove we are not alone*

"I couldn't go in it right now, no ma'am," Linda Callahan sat shaking her head dramatically from side to side. Her attentive audience, about 25 men and women in a ragged circle of chairs, are huddled by camp light at the entrance of a World War II-era concrete bunker in Prairie. The night outside, dark and waiting, is still. 
Everyone knows Linda is talking about the crumbling remains of the Gulf Ordnance Munitions Plant -- a place reputed to be rich in paranormal activity. A place they're about to explore. 
Linda recounts a chilling phone call from her sister, Sammie, many years ago, when both Aberdeen women worked weekend security shifts at the near-empty plant, which was then a facility for Walker Manufacturing. 
"Linda, if you're there, please pick up the phone! Please, Oh, God, help me!" Sammie's hysterical voice rattled from her sister's answering machine that Saturday. A terrified Sammie, alone at the plant, was adamant that she had encountered ghostly visitors -- a wounded Confederate soldier and a nurse. 
"I will always believe that she saw it," Linda said of her sister, who passed away in 2005. Sammie's detailed description of the gray coat, brass buttons, black shoes ... of the nurse's old-fashioned white uniform, with cuffs and white hat ... were as vivid as the bandage around the soldier's head, stained with blood. Tales of "spooky" experiences abound about the plant, and Linda had had her own unsettling experiences. 
"Take my word for it, you just knew ... I don't know what it is, and I don't want to find out for myself, but I believe it with all my heart," she stressed. 
Rich past 
Those gathered at the bunker have come for a ghost hunting experience led by the Mystic Mississippi Paranormal Society. As they listen, each wonders what the hours ahead hold in store. The sisters'' story is only one in a long line of eerie accounts spawned since the Ordnance Plant was rapidly built in 1942, on land that had been a Civil War battlefield and burial ground. 
"That may be the main source of the haunting," says Terry Sweeney. He and his wife, Jennifer, co-founded Mystic Para, as it's called, in 2008. The Amory couple and another society member, Beth Vennerstrom, will lead the evening's investigation. 
"This place has such a rich history; it's fascinating. I'm surprised more people don't know about it," Terry remarked. 
That anyone does is thanks in large part to Brent Coleman, an investigator with the Monroe County Sheriff's Department. He has chronicled a history, and is working on a more expansive book, about the remarkable plant about 15 minutes from West Point that once incorporated more than 6,000 acres, contained 27 miles of railroad track, and employed about 7,000 people. 
From 1942 to 1945, the sprawling complex, complete with dormitories, churned out ammunition around the clock for the American war effort. After the war, some of the structures were home to a string of other manufacturing businesses. 
Like Callahan, Coleman has come to the bunker at the Sweeney's request, to say a few words before the ghost hunting begins. 
"As an investigator, I keep an open mind," he tells the group in a level, no-nonsense voice. "I can tell you that in my research for the history of this place, I talked to a lot of people. I wasn't after the unknown, or the mysterious; I was after the history, but I heard a lot of stories. I can tell you that I have interviewed several people who worked here in the ''80s who have very distinct memories of mysterious incidents." 
Mystic Para 
The Sweeney's have investigated the Prairie plant several times. Their purpose in inviting the public in for a glimpse of an investigation is two-fold. "We're not only doing this to show what we do, but also to get people interested in the history of this place, to help raise money for a historic marker here," explained Jennifer. 
In the course of neutral research and investigation of potential paranormal activity in private residences and historic sites, Mystic Para employs a variety of tools to prove -- and disprove -- unusual phenomena. 
Jennifer, a customer service representative, and Terry, an upholsterer, and the team use night vision security cameras, EVP (electric voice phenomenon) recorders, tri-field meters, an extensive DVR system, digital temperature recorders, an experimental communication device called a "Frank's Box" (sometimes called a Ghost Box) and several other instruments. 
"We strive for the highest level of professionalism, and our main goal is to help those in need," stated Jennifer, the case manager. There is never a charge for an investigation. "This is what we do. We're out there searching for evidence of paranormal activity and, at the Ordnance, we often find it." 
On the hunt 
As the bunker group splits into smaller teams that will rotate to three different sites on the plant grounds, Jennifer cautions matter-of-factly: "You will stay with your group; do not wander off. If you feel something that makes you uncomfortable, do not run. Come to your guide." She and Terry are careful not to promise paranormal activity. 
Structures still standing on the property are far apart and forlorn. At every opportunity, nature has reasserted herself. Where roofs are missing, trees topping 20 feet and more grow inside, surrounded by brush and thorns. Vines as thick as a wrist snake through windows that long ago lost their glass. Stars twinkle through networks of steel trusses. The atmosphere is expectant, but not ominous. The only illumination comes from the three-quarter moon above, and flashlights. 
In the three-story husk of the most visible landmark visitors see as they enter the property, one group spreads throughout the second floor, listening intently for recognizable words through the white noise of the "Frank's Box" Jennifer has set on the ground. 
Farther away, in a debris-strewn hallway of another building, Beth's team is measuring air temperature and looking for disturbances in electro-magnetic readings. One participant, Barbara, volunteers to go deeper into the dark hallway, to sit quietly, to be receptive to any sign of a presence. 
Gail Barnes of Golden is convinced something is there. 
"I grew up with ghosts; my grandmother's house in Amory had ghosts," says Gail calmly. "In the hallway, I felt I saw something behind her," she said later. "I saw or felt different people and saw some movements. As far as I could tell, everything was very friendly, nothing threatening." 
At a third site about a half mile away, another team undergoes what may be the most testing of the night -- a solo experience in a long, dark munitions tunnel where a dominant spirit, "Philip," is said to have made his presence known in the past. Infrared cameras record as each person dons headphones and is shown how to work specialized devices before being left on their own. One woman is sure she heard footsteps approaching behind her in the tunnel and ends her session abruptly. 
There are no special effects, no actors, no attempts to make something happen. As the Mystic Para leaders tutor, there are no theatrics -- only an objective sharing of information, with bits of history about one of Mississippi's most interesting and mysterious locations. 
"This is a wonderful place to investigate," said Jennifer. "We never expected it to be as active as it is. ... It's not always as glamorous as it seems on television, but it is fun, spooky and very intriguing." 
"It's hard to believe people don't remember this place," said Terry. "But maybe that's why the ghosts are here. Maybe they want us to remember."


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## mikewint (Sep 24, 2013)

Anecdotal stories are evidence of nothing. And group perception even worse as suggestion enters the mix. The group is well primed that this is a "HAUNTED" place and the leaders "guides" provide the seeds of suggestion and off we go. Once again we deal with human perception and a puff of white vapor suddenly becomes Abe Lincoln. A Rorschach ink blot is a blot of ink bilaterally symetrical then add human perception and suddenly we have Bats, Butterflies, Foxes, My father killing my mother with a knife, etc. Everyone thinks that they SEE what is there but we all PERCEIVE what is there.
Most people understand what a mirage is and how it works but no aount of knowledge removes the PERCEPTION of water ON the road ahead. Our brains have been trained that light travels in a straight line and knowledge cannot remove that training. Light trveling from air into water and out again bends (refraction). Put a pencil in water and look at it. Since we KNOW light is straight we PERCEIVE a bent pencil. Put a black dot on a card. Hold it in front of your nose and move it toward your face slowly. Near your face the dot vanishes. The light from the dot is now falling on the fovea of the eye where there are no rods or cones, your blind spot but because of PERCEPTION no one ever PERCEIVES this "hole" in your vision.
Check out movie "bloopers" you will be amazed at all the things you saw but never perceived as you watched the movie


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## meatloaf109 (Sep 24, 2013)

I agree. 
Stories are just that, and when you have an "Investigator" that has an agenda, well, the evidence usually falls short. I am not impressed with EVP's because of the wide variety of electronic interference that can occur. I am not impressed with "Orbs"; this is dust. Videos posted on Youtube? Nope. Too many idiots out there with computer programs that do a wide variety of editing and special effects. So-called "Ghost Hunters" on T.V., Not a chance. (Ever notice that after the first season, they found "ghosts" everywhere?)
There is only one thing that will change a skeptic to a believer, and that is undeniable first hand experience. And sometimes not even that. I am no fool, I always try to go for a rational explanation. Houses settle, things go "bump" in the night. When I heard the workshop start up every night around 3:00 am, I would go to the door and listen. As soon as my hand would touch the knob, it would stop. I tried a variety of times, (as in, my first thought was that it was a well pump or something like that), so one night I waited for 20 minutes, one night 30, and so on. 
The odds of the mechanical device, if that is what it was, stopping every time I grabbed the doorknob, are astronomical. The door, oddly enough, would be closed every night when I went to check. I propped it open a couple of times with some old paint cans, but they would be pushed aside and the door firmly shut. My friend and I finally took the door down, thinking that we could catch what ever it was easier, but, no. We sat on my couch and watched some old movies with a bottle of cheap Canadian whiskey and waited. When the noise started early the next morning and we went out of my room and headed down the hall, they stopped.
I remain puzzled to this day. While I never felt threatened or anything, I will admit that the hairs on the back of my neck would stand up every time I went to investigate. We decided that a "live and let live(!)" policy was best, and for the rest of my time there, I left whatever it was to it's fun.


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## mikewint (Sep 24, 2013)

Paul, while I do believe every word of your story, like all anecdotal accout it lacks precise details. I know that sound is a form of energy. Air molecules haveto be set in motion in a logitudinal wave motion. That requires that they be compressed and rareified by some physical object vibrating. Thik of a tuning fork as it moves back and forth. Objects (air molecules in this case) can only be moved be moved in one of two ways: direct physical contact or field effect forces (electromagnetism - gravity). Gravity only acts down so that leaves an electromagnetic field. But air is a non-cnductor (15K to 20K volts per inch) so the electromagnetic field could do no work on the air molecules. Therefore something corporeal is vibrating and something is supplying energy to cause the motion.
I find it very difficult to comprehend a non-corporeal entity weilding a non-corporeal tool setting air molecules in motion.
I can see a number of approaches starting with cutting off ALL electrical power, recording devices with directional microphones, small real-time video cameras, ect. Last of all remember that there is a total of 2.5 million dollars in rewards out there for verifiable paranormal phenom


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## Airframes (Sep 24, 2013)

I claim the $2.5 million !


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## GrauGeist (Sep 24, 2013)

Airframes said:


> I claim the $2.5 million !


Noway!! That's been Photoshopped!


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## javlin (Sep 24, 2013)

While I am not a deeply religious man in practice I am a believer in God.I have for myself come to the realization that this body I inhabit is only that and I will go somewhere from here.Now that leads me to understand then that there are more dimensions then what my 5 senses can percieve and they probably encompass all about me.I like Dave I have had premonitions and usually for bad events and one for a good event which I misplaced as bad.

In 1990/91 or so I had a lady by the name of Betty White over here in the US from GB on visa do a reading on me.I was required to handle a normal deck of cards for a period of time which upon handing back to her some fell out.I was about to place them back in the deck which she quickly made me stop and said those tell a different story.I never ever in this reading said yes or no to coroborate any of the info!!The woman sat there and talk about so many people around me I was floored some people I had never talked to anyone but my wife about!Ms. White sat there at one point(65yrs. old maybe) her hands together saying I see an older woman doing this rubbing hands together and it's like she is warm.I swear before God now as my witness she looked the spitt'in imagine of my mother in the kitchen on Sunday afternoon cooking dinner sitting under the one a/c vent in the kitchen rubbing a damp washrag.Ms. White then informed this woman is about to to become ill and some will think it's time(coma/articical resp. 2yrs later) but she will survive and she did.Ms White stated a man by the name of Uncle Bob is watching over I never knew an Uncle Bob but I mentioned it to my mother later that evening.The response that I received from my Mother when I mentioned him was almost a quote"that no good SOB" and my mother went off the handle about me seeing a median.The cards that fell she stated was something that was over and I needed to just let it go.So that brings me back to Uncle Bob who was he? and which dimension was he from?

You see my mother saw a median in the sense by an Indian back in the late 30's/40's who told her three things that all came true and I can only remember two ATTM.1) She would marry twice which she did.The Indian never said two different men just twice JP first and blessed by the church later with vows again.2) She would live to raise seven children which she did,two stillborns and three miscarriages would of been twelve of us kids. 

Then you have NDE which is another story in itself like how did the woman see the slipper on the N side of the Hospital on the ledge when her room was on the S side ? I beg to differ to think that this one planet is all there is when one only has to walk out his door and look up we are but a speck and really have not started to scratch the surface of knowledge.


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## meatloaf109 (Sep 24, 2013)

mikewint said:


> Paul, while I do believe every word of your story, like all anecdotal accout it lacks precise details. I know that sound is a form of energy. Air molecules haveto be set in motion in a logitudinal wave motion. That requires that they be compressed and rareified by some physical object vibrating. Thik of a tuning fork as it moves back and forth. Objects (air molecules in this case) can only be moved be moved in one of two ways: direct physical contact or field effect forces (electromagnetism - gravity). Gravity only acts down so that leaves an electromagnetic field. But air is a non-cnductor (15K to 20K volts per inch) so the electromagnetic field could do no work on the air molecules. Therefore something corporeal is vibrating and something is supplying energy to cause the motion.
> I find it very difficult to comprehend a non-corporeal entity weilding a non-corporeal tool setting air molecules in motion.
> I can see a number of approaches starting with cutting off ALL electrical power, recording devices with directional microphones, small real-time video cameras, ect. Last of all remember that there is a total of 2.5 million dollars in rewards out there for verifiable paranormal phenom


Oh, I can dig it, my friend!
I did not have any real scientific things at my beck and call at the time. I just used my common sense to make the best of what I was presented with at the time. I was broke, and living day to day on unemployment, and the good graces of a good friend. I can provide you with his, and several others testimony, but, as both you and I have stated, ancillary testimony means nothing.
So, therefore, we are at an impasse.


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## daveT (Sep 25, 2013)

My Ghost photooooo


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## gumbyk (Sep 25, 2013)

Whats that? - three light blobs...


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## mikewint (Sep 25, 2013)

Javlin, Mediums are experts at reading both verbal clues and BODY language. The same physiological changes picked-up by a lie detector can be seen visually by a keen observer and as we are all human our pasts share similarities. Add the internet and public records and mediums have hit the mother lode
Paul, truely spoken. I have no explanation but Occams razor leads me to believe in the simplest explanation rather than postulating a spirit trapped in a workshop condemned to use power tools at 3AM every night. Objects fall because invisible fairy pixies cannot tolerate unsupported masses. Remove the support and they (pixies) rush out and pull the unsupported object downward.
DaveT another quite typical blob of ??? A Rorschach test in white.
I have my own ghost blob...see him trapped in the middle


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## meatloaf109 (Sep 25, 2013)

Why is he upside down?


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## Airframes (Sep 25, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> Noway!! That's been Photoshopped!


No, it's a genuine photo Dave. It's actually Karl's face (rochie) reflected in the glass walls surrounding the display in the control tower at Elvington. 
I didn't notice it until viewing the photos later!


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## GrauGeist (Sep 25, 2013)

Airframes said:


> No, it's a genuine photo Dave. It's actually Karl's face (rochie) reflected in the glass walls surrounding the display in the control tower at Elvington.
> I didn't notice it until viewing the photos later!


But is Karl ok with being a ghost?


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## Airframes (Sep 25, 2013)

Yeah, he's sort of got used to it !


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## javlin (Sep 25, 2013)

mikewint said:


> Javlin, Mediums are experts at reading both verbal clues and BODY language. The same physiological changes picked-up by a lie detector can be seen visually by a keen observer and as we are all human our pasts share similarities. Add the internet and public records and mediums have hit the mother lode
> Paul, truely spoken. I have no explanation but Occams razor leads me to believe in the simplest explanation rather than postulating a spirit trapped in a workshop condemned to use power tools at 3AM every night. Objects fall because invisible fairy pixies cannot tolerate unsupported masses. Remove the support and they (pixies) rush out and pull the unsupported object downward.
> DaveT another quite typical blob of ??? A Rorschach test in white.
> 
> I have my own ghost blob...see him trapped in the middle



Have to disagree Mike.The fact an Uncle who committed suicide was never mentioned to me was revealed was abit of a shock to me though not at the initial moment for I thought the lady was caught.Read the post Mike 1990/91 way way before the internet was as it is today so I shoot that one also.The lady also brought up something about a nephew on my wifes side I had never met was 3yrs old attm and lived in Florida.The readinfg lasted I guess 45-60 minutes but again more talk about people around me With Names and of course some without.


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## gumbyk (Sep 25, 2013)

How much of what she said was incorrect?

We tend to want things to be correct, so only recall what fits and forget the rest. Its called confirmation bias.

My mother was told that I was going to have a daughter - well, I have a son...


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## mikewint (Sep 25, 2013)

Furthest back I could go was 2009 when the US sucicide rate was 20/100,000 not bad odds. If questioned she could have covered any number of ways, good friend, like an uncle, sudden death, suspicious death, etc. Like I said humns tend to have similiar backrounds and a skilled con-artist can ferret these out. As to the internet commercial ISPs began to emerge in the mid 1980s however baring that avenue there were things called libraries that contained all kinds of info, as well as courts police and the good od US census. This is the womans JOB she does it well or she does not eat


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## javlin (Sep 25, 2013)

gumbyk said:


> How much of what she said was incorrect?
> 
> We tend to want things to be correct, so only recall what fits and forget the rest. Its called confirmation bias.
> 
> My mother was told that I was going to have a daughter - well, I have a son...



She was right about my mother a couple years later she went into the hospital was on a respirator and in a semi-coma(?) for two weeks.My brother and I was given power to end life assisted living and were about 48 hrs away maybe shorter for ending the life assisted process.The doctors stated that once the body stops breathing on its own it has a hard time coming back,my mother recovered to to die of lung cancer 4years later.She was right in one aspect about my job in a very simple thing but wrong in another unless I get offered a transfer to europe which I do not see.She was right my brother would divorce a witch of a woman but she was wrong about the nephew to date.If I had to give a percent she was 30-40% tops but she also mentioned most anything I tell you can be changed for God gives us freewill.Thats an important aspect otherwise we are all preordained which does meet will with my beliefs.I would surmize that at times we are presented a fork in the road and we choose and was the choice correct or wrong?The deal with the nephew I had never met hinged on the father taking a job in MS then a chain of events would occur for him.I did not even know that my Wife's brother was even looking for a job in MS till some months later he finally took a job with Harris Corporation out FL doing Defense contracts.All I can say is I have a couple other readings out of curiousity a few years after that none compared even marginally and I have had none since for 20 yrs now really little interest.

She also mentioned I would have three children I have one but also my marriage to my wife now would not last; it is now 28 yrs.When she mentioned that I felt even more determined to prove her wrong and here again free will.My main point is that if one just peel back the layer just alittle bit to another dimension then house of cards begins to fall.


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## javlin (Sep 25, 2013)

mikewint said:


> Furthest back I could go was 2009 when the US sucicide rate was 20/100,000 not bad odds. If questioned she could have covered any number of ways, good friend, like an uncle, sudden death, suspicious death, etc. Like I said humns tend to have similiar backrounds and a skilled con-artist can ferret these out. As to the internet commercial ISPs began to emerge in the mid 1980s however baring that avenue there were things called libraries that contained all kinds of info, as well as courts police and the good od US census. This is the womans JOB she does it well or she does not eat



Mike I met the woman and had the reading all within an evening never met her before and have never seen her since.Modems on computers back then were 56K remember the movie with Mattew Broderick and the computer phone tranmitter and receiver?we were using those at work then.The woman did not meet me till I walked in that door.


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## GrauGeist (Sep 25, 2013)

Just food for thought, but here's a good (and very relevant) analogy:
The Luftwaffe was reported to have had at least three operable Lancasters in thier possesion. There was even mention of it in a few Luftwaffe pilot memoirs.

And yet, there's no technical reference to thier existance or disposition and no actual confirmed photograph of thier existance in German possesion.

There has been as much speculation to their fate as there is regarding their color schemes and in spite of this absence of hard proof, it's accepted that three intact Lancasters were seized by the Luftwaffe.

So are we to assume that since there's no hard data on them or any clear and confirmed photographs, we must assume they didn't exist? Surely we cannot simply go on hearsay of a pilot or two, or maybe a fuzzy gun-camera photograph taken of a Lancaster on a German airfield being strafed by an Allied fighter, right?

And yet there are people out there who believe that these mystery Luftwaffe Lancasters did exist...


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## gumbyk (Sep 25, 2013)

> If I had to give a percent she was 30-40% tops but she also mentioned most anything I tell you can be changed for God gives us freewill.



So, given that rider, that anything can be changed, she couldn't possibly be 'wrong' could she?


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## mikewint (Sep 25, 2013)

People who believe do so for what are to them, real and logical reasons. I am and always have been a total sceptic there are too many ways to fool the brain and wanting something to be true makes it even worse. To me it is very very sad that we are in the 21st century with a population more educated and literate than ever before in history and yet by a recent Gallup Poll Haunted Houses - 37% believe 16% are not sure; Demonic Posession - 42% BELIEVE 13% are not sure (55% think demons are possible and possess humans!!!); Gosts - 32% believe 19% are not sure; Communicating with the dead - 21% believe 23% are not sure.
What can I say?


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## javlin (Sep 25, 2013)

gumbyk said:


> So, given that rider, that anything can be changed, she couldn't possibly be 'wrong' could she?



Correct! but the fact names were present and facts I was never aware of were presented lend some credibility for me at least.I have to ask with the question as you presented do you believe you have control over your actions??are you going to blame them on God and pre destiny for you quickly fall into then God does exist? which is it?with that logic Hitler was not guilty of anything.


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## gumbyk (Sep 25, 2013)

javlin said:


> Correct! but the fact names were present and facts I was never aware of were presented lend some credibility for me at least.I have to ask with the question as you presented do you believe you have control over your actions??are you going to blame them on God and pre destiny for you quickly fall into then God does exist? which is it?with that logic Hitler was not guilty of anything.



Well, given that I'm an atheist, none of these options really apply.


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## javlin (Sep 25, 2013)

gumbyk said:


> Well, given that I'm an atheist, none of these options really apply.



Well then so be it  but I must ask do things ever happen out of rhyme or reason contray to your wants moving you for a very short trip of life with different goal than you percieved.It was your Lucky day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or maybe that pile of crap?Choices,percepton and attidude are all players in the journey of life.


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## parsifal (Sep 25, 2013)

I dont have any answers, and not much motivation to coment too much on this subject. I have two personal episodes in my own life that kinda made me stop and think, however.

When I was 25 I was married to my first wife. She fell pregnant, and the pregnancy waws at first normal. My grandmother was very excited and looking forward to the birth of her first great grandchild. 

Then she died quite suddenly. My wife was in her 7th month of pregnancy

I began having some disturbed sessions of sleep, like something was trying to wake me up all the time

One night I did wake up (or i think I woke up). There at the end of my bed was a blue light, sometimes I thought it looked like my grnadmother, other times not. but it was an old woman with a shawl, and she was knitting booties. She looked at me, and smiled, and I felt (she didnt speak) that everything was goinfg to be allright. I tried to wake up my former wife, but in an instant the image was gone.

My sone was born with no complications. 


A few years later, I had a close friend get killed close to home in a motorcycle accident. For three days after he died, I had interuppted sleep, with the same basic question that came to me in dreams and just wouldnt go away....what has happened? Why cant I go home? The persistant questions continued until I turned and in my half awake semi-sleep state answered him that he had passed over and he had to leave. I told him everything would be okay. The sleepless boiuts dispapered and Ive never heard anything again. 

Since then Ive not had any experiences that might be described as "paranormal". I dont know that these events ive described are paranormal. They could just as easily be explained by some form of emotional psychosis. Im not saying anything one or the other, just what I saw and experienced.


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## Readie (Sep 26, 2013)

JHC Michael.

My first wife died of cancer when my first daughter was 3. I often wondered if I would 'see her' again. But, I never did.

People live as memories by those who loved them, that is all... there is no coming back.


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## mikewint (Sep 27, 2013)

As Close as I've Ever Come: Back in the early 70s been married about a year or two when my wife's grandmother died up in Minnesota. They had been very close so we drove up there, about a 12hr drive. Got in late and went to bed pretty quickly in an old guest room. I was beat and was asleep pretty quickly. Awakened some hours later pitch black in the room til I noticed a blue glow at the foot of the bed. Rubbed my eyes a few times and peeked again, yup ghosty blue glow at the foot of the bed. Rubbed eyes and pinched self several time, peeked, you blue glow, raised head further up and a head wearing a hood appeared in the glow, dropped, heart gonig 120bpm. Raised head even higher and the hood became a robe covering a woman looking at me...not catholic but I knows the Madonna. Well I began a total re-evaluation of my life and began pleading and deal making. Wife woke up, "What's wrong with you" she asked. "Look" I stammered and pointed. "Moron, you're not funny" she said and flipped on the light. "That's my grandmothers Virgin Mary statue, it glows in the dark!!! you idiot!!!. "Ha, jokes on you, I knew it all along just testing you" I replied


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## meatloaf109 (Sep 27, 2013)




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## Wayne Little (Sep 28, 2013)

funny from down here too....


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## GrauGeist (Sep 28, 2013)




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## Matt308 (Sep 28, 2013)

Hah! I've done that too. And still do it often in my bedroom. I'm blind as a bat without my glasses. About once a week I will wake up at night and become startled that a large "person" is standing next to my wife's side of the bed. Only after I completely come out of my sleep state do I remember that it is just my wife's antique armoire which has a large pot on top (body and head). Scares the **** out of me everytime.


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## Readie (Sep 28, 2013)

The stuff of nightmares....


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## Matt308 (Sep 29, 2013)

Leave Maggie alone. Or else.


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## Readie (Sep 30, 2013)

A match made in heaven. I'll say no more


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## Matt308 (Sep 30, 2013)

U got that right. Ronaldus Maximus and Maggie.


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## Readie (Sep 30, 2013)

Frightening.... 
The great 'love in'... I wonder what the kids would have looked like....


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## Airframes (Sep 30, 2013)

One of them's the PM at the moment I think .................


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## Matt308 (Sep 30, 2013)

Readie said:


> Frightening....
> The great 'love in'... I wonder what the kids would have looked like....



Bright shiny points of intellectual light... as opposed to individual blackholes in societal evolution. Those who aspire to actually work for their destiny, as opposed to expectation of federal gov't cradle to grave support, realize a collective happiness of accomplishment vice victimization of not receiving enough handouts.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 1, 2013)

We sure could use Mr. Reagan right about now...


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## parsifal (Oct 1, 2013)

I just drop my head into my hands and think very negative thoughts when i see whats happening in your country at the moment. As for our guy, he talked tough before the election and is now a changed man. 

Dont answer, please


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## Readie (Oct 1, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> We sure could use Mr. Reagan right about now...



You might, but after 13 years of being scolded division we don't need another Mrs T.
What we DO need is a modern leader prepared to move forward for the true national interest, embrace being in the EU instead of head butting, sort out the benefit system once and for all and make people proud to be British.
Doesn't sound too difficult does it?


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## yulzari (Oct 1, 2013)

Can I apply for the position of Lord Protector then John?


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## Readie (Oct 1, 2013)

Consider your self elected John


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## Matt308 (Oct 1, 2013)

Readie said:


> You might, but after 13 years of being scolded division we don't need another Mrs T.
> What we DO need is a modern leader prepared to move forward for the true national interest, embrace being in the EU instead of head butting, sort out the benefit system once and for all and make people proud to be British.
> Doesn't sound too difficult does it?



Good luck with that.


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## Readie (Oct 2, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> Good luck with that.



We are nothing but patient.... we wait and wait and wait and wait....


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