# Obscure Italian Aircraft



## red admiral (May 2, 2006)

Campini CS3. 3 Isotta Fraschini L121 inline engines driving propellors. Outer engines drive burners like CC2. Central engine provides supercharging for others above 5000m.






Piaggio 112. Refined P108 with different nose and tail.






Piaggio 114. P112 with floats.






Piaggio P.133 was a new strategic bomber and the construction of the 1st prototype was 90% finished on 8 Sept. 1943 (the armistice).
engines: 4 x 1,700 hp
max speed: 490 km/h
authonomy: 5,100 km
bombload: 4,800 kg
armament: 4 x 12,7 and 6 x 20 mm (2 dorsal turrets, 2 lateral, 1 tail, 1 ventral and 4 anterior) 






Aero P.123 long range bomber






Cant Z.1014 long range bomber. Competitor to P108 and definitely superior. 500kph+ projected speed. 6x20mm cannon. P108 later "won" due to Piaggio halving the price.

Source is mostly Aerofan.


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## Salim (May 2, 2006)

Facinating!


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## cheddar cheese (May 2, 2006)

Hadnt seen a couple of those designs before, nice drawings...


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## Aggie08 (May 2, 2006)

I like the last one, the Cant. Very odd the way the tail is set... Neat lookin.


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## Wurger (May 2, 2006)

Salim's opinion + interesting


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## kiwimac (May 2, 2006)

Very nice


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## Dogwalker (May 3, 2006)

The wooden models of P.112 and P.133, were done to be tested in the wind tunnel.
I believe they still exist nowadays.


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## Salim (May 3, 2006)

> Piaggio P.133 was a new strategic bomber and the construction of the 1st prototype was 90% finished on 8 Sept. 1943 (the armistice).
> engines: 4 x 1,700 hp
> max speed: 490 km/h
> authonomy: 5,100 km
> ...



Three questions.

1: What exactly is an 'anterior' turret? Also, were the 12.7mm guns on those ones (anterior), and the 20mm on the others?

2: Does 'Authonomy' mean range?

3: Any idea on how much battle damage these babies could take?

I have to admit, the range and bomboad (4.8 tonnes at 5,100 km is quite a bit!) are very impressive, and the defensive armament sounds far stronger than anything the allies ever made. I wonder what would have happened had the Americans developed something like this for their own use!


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## Twitch (May 3, 2006)

Good stuff Red! Always like to see unusual aircraft.


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## cheddar cheese (May 3, 2006)

Anterior is possibly tail, and yes I believe Authonomy is range. As for battle damage ive no idea, since as red said the prototype wasnt even finished. It wouldnt surprise me if it turned out to be an effective aircraft, the P.108 was pretty decent in itself.


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## red admiral (May 3, 2006)

Anterior would be alongside the cockpit. I'd imagine the 4x12.7 are mounted there. There were 2x12.7 in the P108. i'm not entirely sure about the positioning of the other weapons, but remote-controlled barbettes in outer wings would be likely. 1x20mm in nose, tail and ventral(remote controlled). Not sure about the fuselage sides.

Autonomy does mean range. This is probably maximum range, not range with maximum load but I don't know for sure.

Battle Damage. THe P108 was fairly durable. The problem would be getting the engines to work. Fit her with 4xDB605D instead...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 5, 2006)

damage depends primarily a few things, what kind of skin did she have? and were their control surfaces fabric or metal? any armour? finally how many ribs did she have/how much bracing?


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## SM79Sparviero (May 6, 2006)

According to "Dimensione Cielo" edizioni bizzarri, 1975 Piaggio P 133 had "tre armi fisse da 12.7 nel muso"=three 12.7 mm fixed machine guns in the nose controlled and aimed by the pilots like the fixed wing machine gun of Cant Z-1018.
It is possible that one further SAFAT were in the nose in a trainable system for one nose gunner/bomber. The alternative hypothesis could be 4 machine guns in one trainable turret style Lancaster tail turret but I have never heard anything about such a device in an Italian aircraft.
It is improbable that two or more gunners were planned in the nose of the bomber.

Port and starboard fuselage: two 20 mm Ikaria Mg-FF guns ( according the same source above) .
Tail: one Mg-151. Fuselage inferior step: one Mg-151.
The wing turrets of P-108 were withdrawn for two conventional and cheaper fuselage turrets.
The bomber is described as "completely metallic" with a heavy armor for the cockpit.

"Autonomia" and "Range" are not always synonimous, if we just take into consideration the parameter of fuel consumption the effective range for a mission of a fighter or a bomber to the target and ( hopely) back home is a little more than one half of its autonomy, for the lower fuel consumption of the lighter aircraft while it is flying back.In a cargo aircraft or in any aircraft in a transfer mission "range" can be the same thing. 

A "range" of 2600 Km with 1500-2000 kg and much lower for the maximum bomb load ( six 800 kg explosive weapons which were ready in the arsenals in 1936 but were unrealiable for troubles of the pistol triggers) are more realistic data for the too late planned P133.

Here is something more exotic, still from Aerofan: 4 Piaggio P XXII 1700 HP radial engines, one more DB-605 in the fuselage connected with two centrifugal compressors , one which boosted the 4 Piaggio, one for the pressurization of the cockpit.
Bomb load: 10 500 Kg italian conventional bombs.
Armed with 5-6 Mg-151 or 12.7 mm SAFAT in trainable remote-controlled Breda turrets.


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## SM79Sparviero (May 6, 2006)

Sorry for the bad quality of the picture, the imaged was not good already on the book and my scanner doesn' t work very well.....

Red Admiral, could you please the source where you have found of the extremely interesting motorjet aircraft CS3?

Is there a good plan of the fuselage , in particular the boosting system compressors?I would buy the book.

I found something about Campini projects on Giuseppe Ciampaglia 's Storia della propulsione a reazione in Italia- editions:Ufficio storico dell' Aeronautica militare but the pictures of inner CS3 fuselage and motorjet helicopter are, again, very small and mediocre


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## red admiral (May 6, 2006)

The CS.3 is from Aerofan No. 2 in 1978. The project was dated 31st March 1939.

Could you try to post the CS.5 ramjet-helicopter and any information on it please?


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## SM79Sparviero (May 7, 2006)

From engineer Ciampaglia's book,pag 131, textual: " CS 5 giroplano a reazione con motore singolo definito elico-taxi con turbocompressore ed una potenza di 400 HP caratterizato da un condotto di scarico del getto attraverso il mozzo dell' elica "= CS 5 elico-taxi (sic) jet gyroplane with a single rotor , with a 400 HP turbocharger (sic) , with the exhaust nozzle through the propeller, defined "elico-taxi"".

I feel quite perplexed for this description and for the picture where the gyrodyne is called "AS6" , moreover.
You can see a main rotor which seems free on its axis, without any shaft, like La Cierva style gyrodyne but there isn't any apparent duct for the comprexed air along the blades neither you see any hypothetical ram-jet at the end of these ones like in some German and French helicopter projects.
A radial air-cooled engine seems connected with a small ducted fan wich should obviously work like an aspirator not like a blower, behind the latter there is a device that I can't recognize with precision, it could be an exhaust expansion chamber but I can't leave out the alternative hypothesis of a turbo-charger complex.

A nozzle for the comprexed hot gas is in the tail under the rudder.

In conclusion, it seems an autogyro with a ducted fan ( or thermojet) system) at the place of a conventional propeller.I can't see any device wich diverts a portion of the comprexed air for the thrust of the rotor blades.


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## HealzDevo (Apr 2, 2007)

Nice models those obscure Italian aircraft. Really interesting photos.


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## pops-paolo (Jun 2, 2021)

red admiral said:


> View attachment 386995
> 
> 
> Campini CS3. 3 Isotta Fraschini L121 inline engines driving propellors. Outer engines drive burners like CC2. Central engine provides supercharging for others above 5000m.
> ...


cool bombers


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## Wurger (Jun 2, 2021)

You are hawk-eyed...

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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 2, 2021)

pops-paolo said:


> cool bombers



Just so you know this thread is 17 years old, no problem brining it back to life but some pic and people may be long gone


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## pops-paolo (Jun 2, 2021)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Just so you know this thread is 17 years old, no problem brining it back to life but some pic and people may be long gone


ik


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## Admiral Beez (Jun 2, 2021)

My favourite lesser know Italian fighter is the Caproni Vizzola F.5. To my eye, there's no better looking single engine radial-powered Italian fighter of WW2.












Put a polpetta on the side and you'd swear we'd found the ideal Italo-Japanese fusion.

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## pops-paolo (Jun 2, 2021)

Admiral Beez said:


> My favourite lesser know Italian fighter is the Caproni Vizzola F.5. To my eye, there's no better looking single engine radial-powered Italian fighter of WW2.
> 
> View attachment 625786
> 
> ...


sushi ball?

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## GregP (Jun 3, 2021)

They took the F.5 and made it into the F.6.






Pretty decent-looking, at least to me. Most Italian machines have good aesthetics, from typewriters to cars to airplanes and more.

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## Admiral Beez (Jun 3, 2021)

GregP said:


> They took the F.5 and made it into the F.6.
> 
> View attachment 625859
> 
> ...


Agreed, when it comes to applications using the DB engine the Italians lead in attractiveness.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Jun 3, 2021)

GregP said:


> They took the F.5 and made it into the F.6.
> 
> View attachment 625859
> 
> ...



The Fiat 500 auto currently the rage in the Austin area is to my eyes fugly.

It's also a bitch to work on due to the engine orientation, I'm told.

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## Admiral Beez (Jun 3, 2021)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> The Fiat 500 auto currently the rage in the Austin area is to my eyes fugly.
> 
> It's also a bitch to work on due to the engine orientation, I'm told.


Fiat 500 is dead in the US.

Fiat 500 discontinued in US for 2020

Everyone who wanted one bought one and now noboby does. They were the Crocs of the car world.

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## special ed (Jun 3, 2021)

Fiats invaded in the early 1960s with the 600 as the smallest and the 1100 selling most. Later 131s sold in the early 70s but they were high maintenance as well.


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## Thumpalumpacus (Jun 3, 2021)

I drove 124 for a couple of years. Lots of wrench-time, but at least it was easy to do shade-tree work.

It was pretty fugly too.

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## pops-paolo (Jun 3, 2021)

Admiral Beez said:


> Fiat 500 is dead in the US.
> 
> Fiat 500 discontinued in US for 2020
> 
> ...


i do agree


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## Admiral Beez (Jun 3, 2021)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> I drove 124 for a couple of years. Lots of wrench-time, but at least it was easy to do shade-tree work. It was pretty fugly too.


The FIAT Tipo would have had longer legs in the North American market.

As for aircrsdt, I wonder what Italy would have made had they decided to make the Littorio class as carriers instead of battleships.


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## Thumpalumpacus (Jun 3, 2021)

Admiral Beez said:


> The FIAT Tipo would have had longer legs in the North American market.
> 
> As for aircrsdt, I wonder what Italy would have made had they decided to make the Littorio class as carriers instead of battleships.



I don't think the Italians had any use for carriers outside of prestige purposes, given their maritime scope and land bases.


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## Admiral Beez (Jun 7, 2021)

Had the Italians remained neutral for another year and a half they would have seen Germany bogged down, out of steam outside Moscow, with their embassy reporting seemingly endless reinforcements arriving from over the Caucasus. Italy would have time to rationalize their aircraft fleet and future planning, striking down obsolete types and getting their house in order.

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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 7, 2021)

Admiral Beez said:


> Fiat 500 is dead in the US.
> 
> Fiat 500 discontinued in US for 2020
> 
> ...



FIAT - "FIX IT AGAIN TONY"

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## Admiral Beez (Jun 7, 2021)

FLYBOYJ said:


> FIAT - "FIX IT AGAIN TONY"


Yeppers.

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## stug3 (Jun 10, 2021)

IMAM Ro.43





IMAM Ro.57





Piaggio P.108 
Note gun turrets in outer engine nacelles.

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## SaparotRob (Jun 10, 2021)

These are new to me. The P.108 looks really cool.

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## Wurger (Jun 10, 2021)




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## Clayton Magnet (Jun 10, 2021)

stug3 said:


> Piaggio P.108
> Note gun turrets in outer engine nacelles.


Were the turrets remote controlled?

*Edit* From Wiki...
"...
The wing armament consisted of two remote-controlled, hydraulically powered Breda "Z" turrets with 600 rpg in the outer-engine wing nacelles, linked to one of the two cupolas in the fuselage "hump", with an operator in each. The wing turrets represented the most innovative aspect of the P.108's technology.[8]

Although considered a very advanced design, the operational suitability of the wing nacelle turret installations was questionable..."

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## stug3 (Jun 10, 2021)

Clayton Magnet said:


> Were the turrets remote controlled?
> 
> *Edit* From Wiki...
> "...
> ...



Haha, I would love to know how they were supposed to aim those things.


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## Clayton Magnet (Jun 10, 2021)

stug3 said:


> Haha, I would love to know how they were supposed to aim those things.


Raises a peculiar possibility of shooting themselves in the face, with their heads exposed in the little bubbles on top of the fuselage. I would assume the firing arcs wouldn't allow for it though

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## msxyz (Jun 12, 2021)

stug3 said:


> Haha, I would love to know how they were supposed to aim those things.















My understanding is that the mechanism is a 'telemotor' of sort that would replicate the movement of the observation cupola. This way the aiming devices of the cupolas would point in the same direction as the guns barrels (I don't know if they had some mean to take into account the distance of the observer from the gun, since you're not aiming at an infinite distant point but at a target some hundred meters away). Oddly, the P.108 manual doesn't devote a lot of space to the defensive armament, nor to the onboard electronic equipment. I suspect there must have existed dedicated manuals for those (radio, navigation equipment, aiming devices) but I don't have them. I've only the P.108 user/maintenance manual and the engines service manual.

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## msxyz (Jun 17, 2021)

Meet the Caproni Ca.331.

It started life as a recon / fast light bomber right before ww2






Note the clean lines and the round nose reminiscent of the Heinkel He-111 or Mitsubishi Ki-46. It could carry 1000Kg of bombs (or one 500Kg bomb and a fuel tank); for defense, it had one powered turret above and another machine gun in the belly. Handling was said to be very good, for a twin engine plane. Considering its speed and handling, it could have been turned also into a nice torpedo bomber. Despite all the praises (it was also tested at Reichlin by the Luftwaffe with equally good results) it was never put into production.

When fortunes of war began to turn, in 1942, Caproni then thought of offering it again to Italy and Germany, this time as a night fighter (Turning an attack plane into a night fighter was also done with the Ju-88, another bomber with good speed and handling).






Note the stepped cockpit and an impressive array (well, for Italian standards) of 6 .50 machine guns in the nose, though at some point a combination of .50" and 20mm guns was tried. After the armistice, the sole completed prototype was disassembled and shipped to Germany and then lost forever.

What makes the Caproni Ca.331 a bit special was the choice of engine: it was an Isotta Fraschini aircooled inverted V12 engine named "Delta". This engine had been used in the successful Ca.313/314, a transport and light bomber that was also exported to other countries as well. (When Italy entered the war, Britain rescinded a pending order for 300 Ca.313, France for 200 units!)

Some other aircooled V12s exist, like the DeHaviland Gipsy Major (480hp), the Argus AS410 (460hp) or the Fairchild/Ranger V770 (500hp). The Delta had 700hp in its first version and up to 850hp at 5000m in the final version, with 2 speed supercharger and still using regular Italian 80/87 gasoline. Displacement was 26.6L and it weighted, dry but complete with accessories, a little more than 500Kg. The competing engines in the same power class were the Rolls Royce Kestrel or the Junkers Jumo 210, both V12 and both producing around 700hp, but liquid cooled. It's like British and German engineers said "inline engines must be watercooled" and Isotta Fraschini engineers answered "hold my beer" .

The Isotta Fraschini Delta was also unique in the fact that it used a dual overhead camshaft with hemispherical chamber, instead of the more common flat or penta-roof chamber used in other V12 of the period. Cooling of the rear cylinders was a bit troublesome, requiring careful design of the air scoop and of the baffles around the engine but it proved doable after a bit of trial and error. Exhaust valves vented between the two banks, so the collectors pointed downward and not on the side, as it's common in many V12s. It was a bit over engineered and, like many Italian aircraft engines of the period, it made extensive use of magnesium alloys for lightness, though this also meant that once it caught fire, it burned very well!

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## vikingBerserker (Jun 17, 2021)

I've always loved the P.108


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## msxyz (Jun 18, 2021)

Admiral Beez said:


> My favourite lesser know Italian fighter is the Caproni Vizzola F.5. To my eye, there's no better looking single engine radial-powered Italian fighter of WW2.
> 
> View attachment 625786
> 
> ...



If you place a pizza image on the tail, it will look like an Hinomaru from distance!

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