# Join the Army or go to jail....



## ccheese (Dec 9, 2007)

The following was in today’s Virginian Pilot’s letters to the editor. The writer is responding to a previous letter about “Prison spending getting out of hand”

“Many people in prison should not be there. They committed a crime, yes, but the punishment should fit the crime. Violent offenders should remain in prison for an extended amount of time. However, many others – maybe hundreds of thousands – could be punished in a different way.”

“We have a shortage of military personnel. Let non-violent prisoners out and make them work for the military for five or ten years. Put a tracking device on them, if need be.”

“At the end of their sentence, erase their record if they have served our country with honor and dignity. That way they can be free and have something to look forward to, in the future.”

“We must find an alternative for punishment that helps families and lifts a person from despair.” 

/s/ Jan Rogers, Windsor, VA

Because most of us up here on the forum are in some way or another connected to he military, I thought I would throw this on the floor for debate. I really don’t know if I would want to share a barracks or a compartment on a ship with a petty thief, a drug addict or drug pusher, someone convicted of DUI’s or whatever else the writer considers “the others” .

How about you ?

Charles


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 9, 2007)

Years ago this was a deterrent for juveniles who got in trouble - this seems like the courts would push someone else's problems on the military. I think it stinks.


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## Lucky13 (Dec 9, 2007)

In Sweden it is/was the other way around. If you didn't do your military service you ended up IN the slammer instead....
Some countries could use the mandatory service to get rid of some of the trash from the streets...
But, then SOME people would probably scream and rub papers about human rights and stuff in your face, and those having to do it, screaming for mum and dad...!


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## evangilder (Dec 9, 2007)

> Many people in prison should not be there. They committed a crime, yes, but the punishment should fit the crime.



So what IS a punishment that fits the crime? Is the author of that paper that military service is a punishment? Spoken like a clueless idiot. 



> Let non-violent prisoners out and make them work for the military for five or ten years.



More clueless blathering. I would rather be in a unit with honorable volunteers than with some two-bit criminals that are looking at service as a way out of punishment for a crime.


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## Lucky13 (Dec 9, 2007)

Didn't some countires have some kind of, not regiments maybe, but perhaps companies made up by prisoners?


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 9, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> In Sweden it is/was the other way around. If you didn't do your military service you ended up IN the slammer instead....
> Some countries could use the mandatory service to get rid of some of the trash from the streets...
> But, then SOME people would probably scream and rub papers about human rights and stuff in your face, and those having to do it, screaming for mum and dad...!


It's funny - I once read an article about the rise of gangs in the US - most of the real problems started in the years AFTER the Vietnam War and AFTER the draft was done away with. It took organizations like the Crips and Bloods about 10 years to mature into sophisticated crime organizations but it all started when those between the ages of 18-21 who were unmotivated and criminal were able to mass together.


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## evangilder (Dec 9, 2007)

That's a good argument for conscription, Joe. I think having mandatory service of some sort should be the law. It makes people better citizens.


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## Lucky13 (Dec 9, 2007)

It didn't do me any damage....I think.


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## plan_D (Dec 9, 2007)

In World War II, the German and Soviet militaries had penal battalions. They were basically the people you sent in first to expend some of the enemies ammo - the Germans named theirs the SS-Fallschirmjaeger ... put the sh*ts up anyone opposing them until they realised they were just cons with a scary name (scary because the W-SS and Fallschirmjager were f*cking amazing fighters)


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## T4.H (Dec 9, 2007)

It is dangerous even to think about something like this...espacially in a time when you are in war!
In my opinion, the justice system of the USA is not fair. It is a big difference, if you are rich or poor.
I would fear, that the US Army starts to "order" new recruits at some judges.

The US-Army lacks of educated and also motivated soldiers...
And around the world, the US Army is nowadays famous for there war-crimes especially in Irak... 
Do you want to go next to someone into a battle who is only in your unit, because if not, he would end in jail?


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## plan_D (Dec 9, 2007)

The U.S military has committed no war crimes, you are a deluded piece of sh*t without a slither of a clue to say that. The U.S troops, along with all other troops, that face battle day in and day out are worth more than a million of you. The 'war crimes' you claim they make are no more than mistakes and mishaps on the battlefield, a scary and excited place to be where mistakes will be made. None of those mistakes made by the SOLDIERS would be made if those ****-sucking insurgents would just lay down their arms and stop PLAYING soldier and allow Iraq to become a country in the 21st Century instead of the 1st Century. 

Your view on the Iraq War as a whole is irrelevant, it gives you NO excuse to bad mouth the troops fighting for the security of that god forsaken sh*thole called Iraq. The U.S forces commit no war crimes, they're not in a war that is covered by the Geneva Convention anymore anyway - they're in a counter-insurgency war where any f*cker with a gun is the enemy ... and I hope the Coalition kills every c*nt who thinks its fun to face up against these people who are the ones that are REALLY rebuilding Iraq not the piss-ant lefty charities who would not be anywhere without the Coalition equipment to carry them and the Coalition men and women to protect them. 

As for the lack of discipline ... have you ever fought alongside U.S troops? What gives you the right to judge their ability to fight?


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## Njaco (Dec 9, 2007)

I may noy be entitled to an opionion on this as I have no military record but I seem to remember that at one time not long ago, US citizens were given the choice to serve and didn't do too bad.

That being said, I have a few thoughts. I'm not sure what degree of crime would fit but one of my ticks is this. I'm divorced and I pay child support. I have no problem, I adjust my life so my children come first. I'm ahead on my payments. But...

There is a wave of fatherless children or children whose fathers don't pay. I don't want to get into a debate about that system (it is messed up in areas!) but for those fathers who don't pay, where the mothers are on welfare, WIC, foodstamps, etc., put the fathers in the military to "work" off the debt. May see the birth rate go down.

Last time I heard it costs about $20,000 to house a prisoner in the US. Out of taxpayers pockets. And at some joints the have amenities I can only dream of. Give them some discipline and pride.

Of course, the views of some here - such as who you are fighting with - I agree also. Its hard to have an answer.


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## evangilder (Dec 9, 2007)

T4.H said:


> It is dangerous even to think about something like this...espacially in a time when you are in war!
> In my opinion, the justice system of the USA is not fair. It is a big difference, if you are rich or poor.
> I would fear, that the US Army starts to "order" new recruits at some judges.
> 
> ...



I suggest you flush out your head gear and issue an apology to our standing US troops. You obviously don't know jack squat about what you speak. I am being kind, even though I would be very tempted to rip your throat out if you said that in front of me.

You have 24 hours to either back that statement up with FACTS or issue a retraction and apologize.


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## Lucky13 (Dec 9, 2007)

I'm not gonna say anything because I'd run the risk of being banned. But I Think that you gentlemen know what I feel towards our boys and girls doing other peoples dirty work...


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## Lucky13 (Dec 9, 2007)

I'm gonna take cover now, before the earthquake....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 9, 2007)

T4.H said:


> In my opinion, the justice system of the USA is not fair. It is a big difference, if you are rich or poor.



Just like every other justice system in the world including Germany's.



T4.H said:


> I would fear, that the US Army starts to "order" new recruits at some judges.



What?



T4.H said:


> The US-Army lacks of educated and also motivated soldiers...



Excuse me lacks educated Soldiers? Where do you come up with this. Sorry but you dont know what you are talking about.

Did you know that more people in the US Army have a college education than probably any other military in the world. 

You also say the US Army lacks motivated soldiers? Where do you come up with this as well? Have you served in the US Army? 

No...

I have and I can tell you are wrong again. Sorry but you dont know what you are talking about.

*Have you been watching ZDF again?* Everytime I see this very political and anti American TV Channel I laugh because it is wrong in 90 percent of what it broadcasts.



T4.H said:


> And around the world, the US Army is nowadays famous for there war-crimes especially in Irak...



And in that case they are wrong. War-Crimes has been very minimal in Iraq. In fact there have not been any war crimes. There have been things done that probably should not have been done but there wer eno war crimes. 

The US Army does not have a policy of torture or a policy of killing innocent civilians.

As a veteran of Iraq I am ed.


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## T4.H (Dec 9, 2007)

Did you read my post?

*Also if the other side commits war crimes, you didn't have the right to do so.*
This you should know. 
Bullshit. *In war all armys commit war crimes*. Some more, some less. But they commit war crimes. Lighter ones or realy bad ones. In each war, everywhere.
Soldiers are humans. You have nice guys, and bad boys. I am one of them, who believes that (less or more, the few % who wouldn't do this, didn't count) everyone can get a killer.
You have only get angry frustrated or demotivated enough.
I'm pretty sure, that I am one of this.
And the most worth thing is, if someone get the chance to play god. Think of Abu Ghuraib.
Even german soldiers have committed some war crimes in Afganistan (only lighter ones). Now they are in trouble.
I have to accepted, that in war, soldiers commit war crimes. I didn't accept, if they commit too much of them. And if they didn't get in prison.
With each war crime and also with each bomb, which hit the wrong ones, you produce thousands of persons, who hates you. And perhaps 10 to thousand persons, who decide to fight you.
I'm pretty sure because of Abu Ghraib, there were more than 1000 terrorist produced and perhaps US 100 soldiers and thousands of irak civilians have died till now. *Unimportant how much you hate the other side, you have to be intelligent enough not to commit any war crimes.* Or be intelligent enough, to do it, when noone has a chance to recognice it. 

Have you read the Genfer convention? I did. Because I couldn't believe that the Talibans are "soldiers"...they are. *Captured ones are POW's with all rights*.
It is not allowed to make an interrogation! And also the rest is not allowed what is done. No camps everywhere in the world, in which they disappear. Not these one in cuba, afganistan, rumania etc...
Don't understand me wrong, I don't like them. And personally, if they die, it wouldn't care me. But because of this, you have the Genfer convention. Because of persons who wouldn't care. 

I remember now...(Queensryche)

Do you remember:
The lonely Iraki soldier, hunted by a AH64 with the 3 cm gun?
BAmBAmBAmFalls down, stand up again...BAmBAmBAm Falls down...
It is not allowed, to shoot with a 3 cm gun on soldiers (genfer convention)

The wounded one trying to get away from his car...And the gunner of the AH64 saying to his pilot (something like): There is a wounded one. I can't kill him.
Pilot (something like): Shoot on the car...
Perhaps one or two of the bullets hit the car...the rest...went next to it...
It is not allowed, to shoot on wounded ones...and with 3 cm...

Or the group going into a building, several wounded one where lying in this building (since a day?).
One of the soldier was shouting on one of the wounded...then he shot him in his head, half a meter distance...

I have perhaps a different opinion, what a warcrime is. For me this are warcrimes.



T4.H said:


> In my opinion, the justice system of the USA is not fair. It is a big difference, if you are rich or poor.





DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Just like every other justice system in the world including Germany's.



Yep of course. Did I say, the system in my country is better? I haven't said this.



T4.H said:


> I would fear, that the US Army starts to "order" new recruits at some judges
> 
> 
> > DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
> ...


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## evangilder (Dec 9, 2007)

Blah blah blah....WHERE ARE YOU FACTS?!?! Your clock is ticking, mister.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 9, 2007)

T4.H said:


> Did you read my post?
> 
> *Also if the other side commits war crimes, you didn't have the right to do so.*
> This you should know.
> ...



Yes Soldiers are humans but tell me what war crimes have been made by US Soldiers in Iraq.

Seriously. I dont think you can come up with a serious one. Yes things have been done that probably should not have been done but there were no war crimes committed.

You saying that the US Army has a reputation for committing war crimes is absolutely bullshit and not true.



T4.H said:


> *Unimportant how much you hate the other side, you have to be intelligent enough not to commit any war crimes.* Or be intelligent enough, to do it, when noone has a chance to recognice it.



So because a *few* make some mistakes you believe the whole US Army is "unintelligent". Were all Germans "unintelligent" because of the war crimes committed against the jews. 



T4.H said:


> Have you read the Genfer convention? I did. Because I couldn't believe that the Talibans are "soldiers"...they are. *Captured ones are POW's with all rights*.



Yeah I have read the Geneva Convention. It is standard training for US soldiers.

Terrorists are not soldiers....

They are not covered by the Geneva Convention. If they believed in the Geneva Convention none of this would have been happening because there would still be two really big towers in New York and several thousand people would still be alive!



T4.H said:


> Do you remember:
> The lonely Iraki soldier, hunted by a AH64 with the 3 cm gun?
> BAmBAmBAmFalls down, stand up again...BAmBAmBAm Falls down...
> It is not allowed, to shoot with a 3 cm gun on soldiers (genfer convention)
> ...



You obviously have not seen the full video. This is a perfect example of how you only see a part of something and make judgements off of not knowing the whole thing that happened.

I have seen the whole video....

Our unit replaced them and we were shown the full video.



T4.H said:


> Or the group going into a building, several wounded one where lying in this building (since a day?).
> One of the soldier was shouting on one of the wounded...then he shot him in his head, half a meter distance...



You are talking about the incident in Falujah correct? Do you know the whole story? I take it no...

Right before this happened the wounded Iraqi had just killed this soldiers battle buddy. In the shock and anger that he felt he killed the man who killed his friend. 

Yeah he probably should not have done so, however unless you have felt what he felt dont judge the man for a mistake. It was not a war crime.



T4.H said:


> I have perhaps a different opinion, what a warcrime is. For me this are warcrimes.



It is easy to judge from sitting in your comfortable and safe living room...


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## Lucky13 (Dec 9, 2007)

And what would all that the suicide bombers be called then? Never mentioned them. THAT is war crime to me....how many have they killed, and civilians too, remember?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 9, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> And what would all that the suicide bombers be called then? Never mentioned them. THAT is war crime to me....how many have they killed, and civilians too, remember?



Its okay Lucky. They are not US Soldiers....


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## Lucky13 (Dec 9, 2007)

Just a tad bit upset Adler, sorry! Accusing US soldiers of war crimes....and not mention those b*st*rds... I have nothing but the outmost respect for you guys, should it be needed, I'll be first in line to pick up your weapon....freedom is worth fighting for, even if some people are too stupid or ignorant to realize that..


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 9, 2007)

No serously its okay Lucky.

The Taliban are intelligent and motivated soldiers.


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## Lucky13 (Dec 9, 2007)

Motivated because when the people come to power, and democracy(?) is installed once again, those that was working for Saddam will be in deep sh*t me thinks...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 9, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> Motivated because when the people come to power, and democracy(?) is installed once again, those that was working for Saddam will be in deep sh*t me thinks...



I was not being serious Lucky....


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## T4.H (Dec 9, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> And what would all that the suicide bombers be called then? Never mentioned them. THAT is war crime to me....how many have they killed, and civilians too, remember?



I have mentioned it...I wrote something, I have still not finished. Before I edited it.
Terrorists are no soldiers. These are terrorists.
*Also if the other side commits war crimes, you didn't have the right to do so.*


Adler:
You are talking about the incident in Falujah correct? Do you know the whole story? I take it no...

Right before this happened the wounded Iraqi had just killed this soldiers battle buddy. In the shock and anger that he felt he killed the man who killed his friend. 

Yeah he probably should not have done so, however unless you have felt what he felt dont judge the man for a mistake. It was not a war crime.

*For me it is a war crime*



*Did you want to understand me wrong? *

I wrote:
>>>>>>
And around the world, the US Army is nowadays famous for there war-crimes especially in Irak...
>>>>>>
Did I say, they commit many? Or more than expected? I wanted to say, that everone in the world starts to believe it. Ok, perhaps, this sentence could be understood on the wrong way. 

Now I will finish in this thread. It's useless. Believe, what you want to believe, define, how you want to defin war crime.

I'm now frustrated and demotivated to dicuss any further with you about this.


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## Lucky13 (Dec 9, 2007)

Oh........DOGH! Sorry Adler, missed that... I owe you a nice dram mate.


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## plan_D (Dec 9, 2007)

T4 has never read the GENEVA convention, it's obvious when he cannot even spell it. The GENEVA convention marks soldiers as those fighting in uniform, under the GENEVA convention anyone who fights in civilian clothing can be considered a spy and shot on the spot. The GENEVA convention also makes no mention of high calibre rounds being illegal against enemy personel.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 9, 2007)

T4.H it is easy to judge a young soldier when you are sitting in a comfortable living room and not on the battlefield with him.

You are entitled to your own opinion and that is fine but this whole discussion would have been a lot easier if you had not said that US Soldiers are unintelligent and not motivated. Especially when there are US soldiers and Ex US soldiers (like myself) in this forum.

I dont take it very kindly to being called unintelligent...

See what I mean?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 9, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> Oh........DOGH! Sorry Adler, missed that... I owe you a nice dram mate.



I told you allready once before that you need to be careful what you say. Me and my wife might be touring England, Scotland and Ireland next year. If we are up there I will drive out of my way to have a Scotch with you!


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 9, 2007)

T4.H said:


> In my opinion, the justice system of the USA is not fair. It is a big difference, if you are rich or poor.



And how the f#*k would YOU know - have you ever lived here? Have you ever lived here and been poor? I have and by your post you don't have a F*#king clue what you're talking about!


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## Lucky13 (Dec 9, 2007)

You wouldn't even make over the doorstep to the recruiting office if you were unintelligent, not with today's weapon technology...


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## Lucky13 (Dec 9, 2007)

You're more than welcome Adler....seriously.


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## evangilder (Dec 9, 2007)

I see your methods, T4H, make a statement and refuse to back it up with facts. Now you are tired of the discussion??? Guess what, your clock is ticking, PROVIDE THE DOCUMENTED FACTS or be prepared to apologize to the current and former soldiers of the US military. 

You ignore this, your days here will be done. Rule number one of this forum is to NEVER disparage anyones military service. You spat in the face of every US soldier with your stupid comment. Fact, apology or exit. The choice is yours. PUT UP OR SHUT the F UP!


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## Njaco (Dec 9, 2007)

> Come on, after several years of war, the motivation of the ground forces is down. Every day something blows up somewhere. Someone is shooting on you. Sniper attacks. And most time you didn't see the enemy. What do you fear most? This one, you didn't see. They didn't get enough sleep.



This may be the only part of the discusion that I can comment on. As I sit in my comfy chair miles away from the real work (mostly likely T4 can relate  ), every report I see where the news actually gets down in the dirt with the infantry or whoever, they'r not demoralized. They're gung-ho to get the work done, to help the Iragi people, to finish the job. They're pissed at the insurgents for screwing with the game plan, they're pissed sometimes at the media and how they're portrayed - but not demoralized or fearful. The only thing I see getting to their feelings is being away from home and the loss of buddies.

Its called sterotype and how factual is that?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 9, 2007)

No Njaco. T4.H is there. He knows what is really going on!


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## ccheese (Dec 9, 2007)

Oh My !! Geesh.... When I started this thread, with just a little ole letter to
the editor, I never dreamed what a fire-storm I would start. Seems like some
people got their dander up..... and with good reason. I've been gone all day,
and come back to 36 pages of comment. Now... having been former military,
and having fought in a _war_ (italics mine) I would have to go back to the
begining of this mess. Question: what types of crimes would be punished by
five or so years in the army ? Petty theft ? GTA ? I think anything to do with
drugs would/should be out. The military does not need pot-heads. 

Would you want to share a tent, or a barracks with a guy who held up a 
7-11 ? So it boils down to where the Judge would draw a line. I know of
only one instance of a "join the army or go to jail". Twin brothers I knew
stole a car to go joyriding. Were caught and spent four years in the Army.
Served with honor during Korea and the records were expunged.

So.... could it work ? I think that in 95 percent of the cases, a resounding
NO ! The criminal record would follow you all thru your time in the army.
Guys who would normally be your buddy, would not want to share a tent or
a fox hole with you. 

I think it's a very bad idea....

Charles


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## T4.H (Dec 9, 2007)

I hate this...
I said, I want to finish this discussion...

*evanglider, you want facts? Or anyone else????*

*IT is possible, that not every picture text and so on is correct. Some things are in german, there I couldn't find an english source. Perhaps there is something from the second gulf war. I only looked for these things, which seemed to be confirmed. And I found enough other things, where soldiers were talking about war crimes (you tube). I didn't use them. But I'm not perfect.
I made the best job I could do.*

1949 Conventions Additional Protocols (1977 and 2005).
International Humanitarian Law - Treaties Documents

convention III
International Humanitarian Law - Third 1949 Geneva Convention


Who are prisoner of war (Part)
Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy: 
(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[
(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

(3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

(4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization, from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

(5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. 

Art 5. The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation.

Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.


>>>>>
The Taliban and the mercenary soldiers, paid by Osama Bin Laden which have been captured, are POW's.
Point 1, Point 2, Point 3.
I'm not sure, that these (in my opinion are Terrorists) you captured in Iraq, are POW's or not.
>>>>>
Art 24. Transit or screening camps of a permanent kind shall be fitted out under conditions similar to those described in the present Section, and the prisoners therein shall have the same treatment as in other camps.

Art 17. (Part)
No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. *Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.*
><>>
These one, who where released from Guantanamo, or more worse, from the other camps, said something different.
Die Gefangenen von GuantÃ¡namo Bay — Amnesty International Schweiz
I saw some interviews with Khaled El-Masri.
Our german problem.
Till now, if it was possible, everything he has said has been proven. 
And now we have a problem. In the prison camp in afganistan 2 german KSK soldiers have met him.
He has identified them. And with pictures could be proven, that the german soldiers didn't tell the truth.
>>>>>>
Art 21. The Detaining Power may subject prisoners of war to internment. It may impose on them the obligation of not leaving, beyond certain limits, the camp where they are interned, or if the said camp is fenced in, of not going outside its perimeter. Subject to the provisions of the present Convention relative to penal and disciplinary sanctions, *prisoners of war may not be held in close confinement except where necessary to safeguard their health and then only during the continuation of the circumstances which make such confinement necessary*.
>>>>>>
The first pictures of Guantanamo. The small jail chambers.
http://www.amnesty.ca/campaigns/no_exceptions/images/guantanamo/guantanamo_action.jpg
Also again these one from other camps, who have been released from other camps. Abu Ghraib is a jail. It is not allowed to put prisoners into a jail.
In Abu Ghraib were also captured Iraqi soldiers.
>>>>>>
Art 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following
provisions: 
(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) taking of hostages;
(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
(2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for. 
An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

Art 14. Prisoners of war are entitled in all circumstances to respect for their persons and their honour.

Women shall be treated with all the regard due to their sex and shall in all cases benefit by treatment as favourable as that granted to men.

Prisoners of war shall retain the full civil capacity which they enjoyed at the time of their capture. The Detaining Power may not restrict the exercise, either within or without its own territory, of the rights such capacity confers except in so far as the captivity requires.

>>>>>>
You remember the pictures of Abu Ghraib? I do, the rest of the world do.
If not...
To help you.
Bild:AbuGhraibAbuse-standing-on-box.jpg - Wikipedia

No discussion please, if this was correct.
Against convention.
Did these one enjoy?
http://www2.amnesty.de/internet/resource.nsf/res/A985BD55D8682B66C1256EF6004DFA5E/$FILE/guantanamo_soldiers240.jpg
>>>>>>>
Art 34. Prisoners of war shall enjoy complete latitude in the exercise of their religious duties, including attendance at the service of their faith, on condition that they comply with the disciplinary routine prescribed by the military authorities.

Adequate premises shall be provided where religious services may be held.
>>>>>>>
If you carry long hears and a barb because of your religion...
In the first pictures of Guantanamo, I couldn't see someone carrying barb.
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/365/guantanamo23us4.jpg
Could you see anyone?

Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of Non-International Armed Conflicts (Protocol II), 8 June 1977.

Art 16. Protection of cultural objects and of places of worship

Without prejudice to the provisions of the Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict of 14 May 1954, it is prohibited to commit any acts of hostility directed against historic monuments, works of art or places of worship which constitute the cultural or spiritual heritage of peoples, and to use them in support of the military effort.
>>>>>>
This also means, that you have protect them of destruction or demolishen.
I remember the US soldiers standing in front of the museum of bagdad, while the civilians were stealing everything.
You also remember? 
Museen-Plünderungen in Bagdad „Go in Ali Baba! It´s all yours.“ - Kultur - sueddeutsche.de

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



First Part, more than 10.000 letters...also two parts


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## T4.H (Dec 9, 2007)

Part 2:

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArUxgB8oy2g_ (wounded enemy)

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Py_cMPyku4_ (bus)

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XO1pbS_A7I_ (killing of a wounded, *this one i meantioned*, Adler)

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xncFaT1CIk_ shooting with 3 cm on 3 person (3 cm on person is not allowed), then one wounded is crawling away...shooting on the truck and go forward...*this is the other one i meant, Adler*, stupid music)

Gezielte Tötung eines wehrlosen Gegners in Falludscha 
US-Soldaten der 3. Infanteriedivision in Bagdad im April 2003Die US-Streitkräfte leiteten Anfang November 2004 eine Großoffensive (US Bezeichnung Operation Phantom Fury) gegen Aufständische in der Stadt Falludscha ein. Bei dem Einsatz am 15. November 2004 soll ein US-Marinesoldat in einer Moschee in Falludscha auf einen verletzten und wehrlosen Aufständischen gefeuert haben. Der getötete Iraker war dem TV-Bericht zufolge einer von fünf Verletzten, die US-Soldaten in einer in der Nacht zu Samstag erstürmten Moschee zurückgelassen hatten. Die US-Armee teilte inzwischen mit, sie habe die Einheit des Soldaten vom Fronteinsatz abgezogen und eine Untersuchung wegen des Verdachts eines Verstoßes gegen das Kriegsrecht eingeleitet.

*By bad luck, I have had to shorten it from 15.000 to 10.000 letters...maximal length...
made an error and lost 4000 letters.*

*It's too late now...
And I think this is enough.
You asked for proofs?, for facts?
You have them*


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 9, 2007)

While it seem you have an extreme ability to "cut and paste" stories about a few bad soldiers, all of what you try to rest your point on was brought out by the American press and sometimes by the US Army so the whole world could see. What is not mentioned is the prosecution and punishment those shown will receive.

So with that said I recommend some more Internet searches, you might really learn something about the US.


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## T4.H (Dec 9, 2007)

Flyboy:
*And how the f#*k would I know - I have lived in my country! I have lived in my country and been poor! I also have and by my post I have a F*#king clue what I am talking about!*

Is this the answer you didn't want to hear?

Cut and paste. Thanks.  

And another thing. I should bring facts, that the USA and soldiers of the US Army commit war crimes. 
I did it.
Did I?
Now there are only a few bad soldiers? This are these crimes, where there are pictures, films, or which could be proven. 

Flyboy wrote:
What is not mentioned is the prosecution and punishment those shown will receive.

This is not my job. I know these cases, I just read about (the few one). And what do you think, how many crimes are not known? How many stayed without prosecution and punishment?

I will sleep now.
I have to work tomorrow, to earn my money to survive.


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## evangilder (Dec 9, 2007)

I am completely underwhelmed by your response. Some of those are fragments of a larger picture that you grab a small piece of as evidence of "war crimes". You do realize that soldiers that have committed acts that are against the Geneva convention have been prosecuted. But this shows a systemic problem? Hardly. 

Some of the detainees are not Prisoners of War and as such are not subject to the Geneva Convention. With that being said, prisoners and detainees are being treated fairly and with way more dignity than they would in their host nations. 

What you failed to ask is what I was asking for proof of. For that, you shoudl be ashamed of yourself. Soldiers are human, make mistakes and HAVE BEEN PROSECUTED. 

THIS is what I wanted documented proof of, dumbass:


> The US-Army lacks of educated and also motivated soldiers



Where is it?!?!? The clock is still ticking.


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## Wildcat (Dec 9, 2007)

The day all these terrorists, insurgents, extremists and whatever grow some balls and don a uniform and fight it out against us on an open battlefield, is the day that I'll care about their treatment as POW's. Until then I, and I suspect many here, don't give a rats arse with what happens to them. And remember, it was their cowardly acts of murder that brought all this sh*t on themselves - NOT the US Army.


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 9, 2007)

T4.H said:


> Flyboy:
> *And how the f#*k would I know - I have lived in my country! I have lived in my country and been poor! I also have and by my post I have a F*#king clue what I am talking about!*
> 
> Is this the answer you didn't want to hear?
> ...


So what are you saying - you LIVED here? By the likes of your post if that was true it seems you must of been in a coma your whole time here! 



T4.H said:


> I will sleep now.



I do hope new brain cells are a result!


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## Wildcat (Dec 9, 2007)




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## Aggie08 (Dec 9, 2007)

To answer the first post, I think the military really does change people. I'm 21 and I've never served but I honestly think it straightens people out. Petty little crimes will not, I don't think, affect a soldier's commitment or performance. If the United States feels he is qualified to enter combat then I think it will not be a problem. Equating the Service with a punishment isn't right but perhaps those in question could be given a choice, avoiding the negative connotation.


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## Njaco (Dec 9, 2007)

Sorry, Adler and T4 if my crude joke was inappropriate, But...



> Art 16. Protection of cultural objects and of places of worship
> 
> Without prejudice to the provisions of the Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict of 14 May 1954, it is prohibited to commit any acts of hostility directed against historic monuments, works of art or places of worship which constitute the cultural or spiritual heritage of peoples, and to use them in support of the military effort.
> >>>>>>
> ...



Is there any sympathy and outrage over the church destroyed next to the World Trade Center?



> These one, who where released from Guantanamo, or more worse, from the other camps, said something different.
> Die Gefangenen von GuantÃ¡namo Bay — Amnesty International Schweiz
> I saw some interviews with Khaled El-Masri.
> Our german problem.
> ...



I may be wrong but didn't he say crimes by american soldiers?

and as for the worst crime, check this...
 The real story of Haditha Leaning Straight Up Blog Archive 

and the best from that website is...

_At Haditha, did the Marines act reasonably and appropriately based on their training? They were in a hostile combat situation where deadly force was authorized against suspected triggermen for the IED, and were ordered to assault a suspected insurgent hideout. In retrospect, the men in the car had no weapons or explosives; in retrospect, the people in the house were not insurgents. No one knew at the time.(my underline) 

Innocents were killed at Haditha,, as they inevitably are in all wars--though that does not excuse or justify wrongdoing. Yet neither was Haditha the atrocity or "massacre" that many assumed--though errors in judgment may well have been committed. And while some violent crimes have been visited on civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, overall the highly disciplined U.S. military has conducted itself in an exemplary fashion. When there have been aberrations, the services have typically held themselves accountable._

T4 chill on the accusations and take a breather. In any war, all sides commit mistakes or worse but never is it a total reflection on the country or force as a whole, contrary to what the media would want you to believe.


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## DOUGRD (Dec 9, 2007)

T4.H said:


> Who are prisoner of war (Part)
> Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
> (1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
> 
> ...



T4 I would like to clarify something for you here without sounding like I'm ganging up on you. But make no mistake, I am not your ally in this debate. In the above excerpt from the G.C. I believe the "Key" word is PARTY. If you look this up it means a particular country recognized as such by the U.N. and not a bunch of bottom feeders (insurgents) who are not afiliated with or in the uniform of or on the payroll of a legitimately recognized country. And they certainly do not conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. Do they? Not hardly. As far as your sources for your arguments may I offer this suggestion. Be careful because many times one news source will "piggyback" on another. This means the second news source will repeat the facts of the first source without verifying the information first and pretty soon an incident which was just a small incident becomes a major development reported by every news source in the world. Sometimes the first source is full of sh*t as I personally experienced with CNN in the Persian Gulf back in '87 the story of which I posted in a different thread a while ago. Wikipedia!!! When did that become a reliable news source? Good Luck!


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## DOUGRD (Dec 9, 2007)

Charles, Do you remember back in the '50's and '60's judges did give some people "THE CHOICE". If I remember correctly the courts had certain guidelines as to who was eligible. I think it was just petty offenses. HEY!!!! Wait a d*mn minute, Is that why they called us "Petty Officers"


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## Njaco (Dec 9, 2007)

And what petty crime did YOU commit!!


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## DOUGRD (Dec 9, 2007)

Njaco said:


> And what petty crime did YOU commit!!



I swear she told me she was 18!!!! I got witnesses.


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## Njaco (Dec 9, 2007)

and once again the thread takes another turn to the dark side!


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## magnocain (Dec 10, 2007)

Didnt we try something like that in Vietnam?

Cerial killers could be killed (without 10 years of tax-waisting appeals), or shiped to war to kill bad-guys. But then they would probily kill the wrong people.

Humans need to get vioence out, and in our feminine culture people are stoped from doing that. That is why football is so popular, cause of all the violence. Kids in central LA (for example), have few opportunities to do this, so they end up in gang wars.

Perhaps a solution would be to promote manly things like hunting, paintball, football, pole-jousting, ect...





My 2 cents.


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## Aussie1001 (Dec 10, 2007)

i do not wish to get roused so this is speculation sort of anyway...
I do believe that one David Hicks was captured by the U.S troops, now he was in service with the taliban at the time of his capture and subsequent transport and detainment in Quantanamo Bay.
if this definition is studied it would seem that the taliban do actually fit into the convention as a) A militia or b) members of the armed forces party to the conflict.

(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.


this would subsequently mean that the treatment and facilities at Quantanamo bay are inadiquet for storing what in actual fact are POW's and not as some would deem them scum. (make no mistake i do condone or even remotly support what alkaida and all that other retards in the area get up to)


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## evangilder (Dec 10, 2007)

You mean the same David Hicks that attended Al Qaeda training camps and *pleaded guilty* to providing material support to terrorists? The same David Hicks that changed his story about as often as he changed his underwear? I'm not buying that he would be classified as a POW, but an unlawful combatant.


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## ccheese (Dec 10, 2007)

DOUGRD said:


> Charles, Do you remember back in the '50's and '60's judges did give some people "THE CHOICE". If I remember correctly the courts had certain guidelines as to who was eligible.




Doug: I can only recall one specific instance, and that was the twin 
brothers that swiped a car. I do not remember reading of any other 
instance.

I still don't think I would want to bunk with a petty thief or a hold-up
felon. Maybe that's the key word..."felon" Maybe anyone who commits a
felony would not be eligibile for the "program" ??

Charles


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## evangilder (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, I think having felons serve is an invitation to trouble. I seem to remember that being asked when I went to the MEPS station; "Have you ever been convicted of a felony?".


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## evangilder (Dec 10, 2007)

T4H, you are down to about 4 hours to provide your proof of US soldiers "lack of education and motivation" or apologize.


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## ccheese (Dec 10, 2007)

evangilder said:


> Yeah, I think having felons serve is an invitation to trouble. I seem to remember that being asked when I went to the MEPS station; "Have you ever been convicted of a felony?".



Maybe "felon" is not the key word..... Isn't Grand Theft Auto a felony ?

Charles


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## evangilder (Dec 10, 2007)

It varies from state to state, but in general, Grand Theft Auto is a felony based on a few factors. There are also classes of felonies, with the lower numbers being the most severe.


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## Gnomey (Dec 10, 2007)

Wildcat said:


> The day all these terrorists, insurgents, extremists and whatever grow some balls and don a uniform and fight it out against us on an open battlefield, is the day that I'll care about their treatment as POW's. Until then I, and I suspect many here, don't give a rats arse with what happens to them. And remember, it was their cowardly acts of murder that brought all this sh*t on themselves - NOT the US Army.



I agree Wildcat. I don't care for what happens to them if they are caught. They are not in uniform and therefore have no rights. As for T4 trying to say the US Army is committing war crimes, how can they when what they are doing isn't against any conventions on war - combatants not in uniform can be shot out of hand - which they aren't doing.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 10, 2007)

T4.H said:


> This is not my job. I know these cases, I just read about (the few one). And what do you think, how many crimes are not known? How many stayed without prosecution and punishment?
> 
> I will sleep now.
> I have to work tomorrow, to earn my money to survive.



I think you should stick to things you know about....

This is certainly not one of them.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 10, 2007)

evangilder said:


> T4H, you are down to about 4 hours to provide your proof of US soldiers "lack of education and motivation" or apologize.



I am waiting for that as well...


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## davparlr (Dec 10, 2007)

I am amazed at the garbage that is spread by the internet and certain news organizations and more amazed by how many bite into it.

Anyway, back to the orginal subject. I want the best and highest motivated military I can afford. As such, I do not want a draft and I do not support criminals in the military. By the way, and I don't think I am being overly pro-American, I think the U.S. military is the most educated, best trained, highly motivated (Israel military is probably more motivated, by necessity), and best equipped military in the world. I also think that morale high and discipline is excellent for a wartime.


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 10, 2007)

Well said Dave.

No one is denying what was done by a few "bad" soldiers but they are in no way representative of the quality of soldier seen in the US Army. I think placed in the right situation any soldier would commit "war crimes" especially if their survival may depend on it. 

T4H - flat out, you're an idiot - your statements would be like me saying all Germans are idiots!" Being a former member of the US Armed Forces, not only do you owe me an apology, but every member on this board who served in the US Armed Forces ESPECIALLY Chris (DerAdlerIstGelandet) who not only served in the US Army but who also happens to be German!!!!!


Idiot.............


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## Freebird (Dec 10, 2007)

evangilder said:


> Yeah,* I think having felons serve is an invitation to trouble.* I seem to remember that being asked when I went to the MEPS station; "Have you ever been convicted of a felony?".



Evan, I think I remember reading that the army gives recruits a psycological evaluation before they allow them to serve?



T4.H said:


> It is dangerous even to think about something like this...espacially in a time when you are in war!
> 
> *Dangerous to send felons to seve? Agreed*
> 
> In my opinion, the justice system of the USA is not fair. It is a big difference, if you are rich or poor.



*Justice system in the US is about as good or better than most other "Western nations" Unfortunatley I suspect that people in other countries base 99% of their opinion of the US justice system on the "O.J. Simpson" or "Paris Hilton" cases * 

I've spent about half of this decade in the US so I have a good idea what goes on. Most US police officers I've dealt with were very professional courteous. (No I wasn't busted!  ! 2 accidents 1 drunken bozo busting my window) When my vehicle was broken into in Canada the cops couldn't even be bothered to send an investigator - ("Just give the report on the phone sir")  I've been a plaintiff in small claims in the US Canada, it was about 5 times more hassle in Canada. We have a big problem here in Canada with judges giving a slap on the wrist to repeat offenders (shoplifting, car theft, break enter etc) and probation, on the 2nd, 3rd 10th 20th offence. I like the US idea that the punlic can vote out bleeding heart judges. 



T4.H said:


> The US-Army lacks of educated and also motivated soldiers...
> 
> *Ok now this statement in not only extremely insulting, but dead wrong. The US soldiers are highly motivated and are better educated than the general population.*
> And around the world, the US Army is nowadays famous for there war-crimes especially in Irak...
> Do you want to go next to someone into a battle who is only in your unit, because if not, he would end in jail?





DerAdler said:


> Have you been watching ZDF again? Everytime I see this very political and anti American TV Channel I laugh because it is wrong in 90 percent of what it broadcasts.
> And in that case they are wrong. War-Crimes has been very minimal in Iraq. In fact there have not been any war crimes. There have been things done that probably should not have been done but there were no war crimes.
> *The US Army does not have a policy of torture or a policy of killing innocent civilians.* As a veteran of Iraq I am ed.



Thats correct Adler.

I think T4.H is wrong about "War crimes" which are ordered or promoted by the government. There have been crimes committed "in a war" which are common crimes. (I assume that he's referring to Abu Graib etc) It's unfortunate but most media will ignore 1,000s of good deeds done by US soldiers, and concentrate on the .01% or less that commit crimes - COMMON CRIMES - not war crimes - and they are punished.



Gnomey said:


> I agree Wildcat. I don't care for what happens to them if they are caught. They are not in uniform and therefore have no rights. *As for T4 trying to say the US Army is committing war crimes,* how can they when what they are doing isn't against any conventions on war - combatants not in uniform can be shot out of hand - which they aren't doing.



Gnomey I think he said "famous for" committing, not "did commit". If by "famous for" he means "accused of" in the [email protected] media, unfortunately he's not wrong on this, I've heard too many ignorant comments from people the media in Europe, Australia, Canada etc. (and from the far-left anti war types in the US too) about Bush is a war criminal, US soldiers are baby killers and other SH*T like that!

I disagree with you though about detainee's rights Gnomey, I think Sen. McCain is right about this. Whether they are unlawful combatants or not we need to treat them as if they were covered by the Geneva convention. otherwise it could 1.) Result in more mis-treatment of US soldiers if captured, and
2.) give an excuse for all the dictatorships or oppresive regimes (China, Russia, Burma, Iran, Zimbabwe, Sudan) to abuse detainees by claiming they are "unlawful combatants" etc. 

In the justice system we must give the accused all of their rights even if we know that they are as guilty as f**k. (like O.J. Simpson?)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 10, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> T4H - flat out, you're an idiot - your statements would be like me saying all Germans are idiots!" Being a former member of the US Armed Forces, not only do you owe me an apology, but every member on this board who served in the US Armed Forces ESPECIALLY Chris (DerAdlerIstGelandet) who not only served in the US Army but who also happens to be German!!!!!
> 
> 
> Idiot.............



Actually I am a US Citizen....

I like to say I am a German who has blood that flows Red White and Blue....8)


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## Lucky13 (Dec 10, 2007)

Must be weird if you donate blood Adler.....


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 10, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I like to say I am a German who has blood that flows Red White and Blue....8)



8)


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## Erich (Dec 10, 2007)

I wonder if our esteemed banned member has ever been in the fighting overseas for his first hand knowledge to come so freely upon us ?

wingnut just go away


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## lesofprimus (Dec 10, 2007)

What a meatball....

As far as the topic goes, well.....

I'm no angel, never claimed to be one, never tried to emulate one either.... Who here hasnt done something illegal in their past, prior to joining the service??? Anyone ever boost a car with ur 15 yr old friends??? Ever do any graffiti or vandalism??? Steal a bicycle or mini-bike?? Bust up some cabbages in the local farmers field?? Trespass on a job site to steal some extra wood to build a fort in the woods???

Does anyone remember some of the sea stories or round-the-fire chats with some of ur brothers in arms??? I remember this one Marine sniper in Somolia, who told us about his excursion with a sheep...

Thats a Class A Felony in all 50 US States...

I would have trusted my life in that Snipers hands....


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## DOUGRD (Dec 10, 2007)

lesofprimus said:


> I remember this one Marine sniper in Somolia, who told us about his excursion with a sheep...
> Thats a Class A Felony in all 50 US States..I would have trusted my life in that Snipers hands....



Me too, but not my pet sheep!


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## mkloby (Dec 11, 2007)

Wow - I take a little hiatus to come back to this crap from T4. Just about every single post from this clown has been anti-American diarrhea.


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 11, 2007)

mkloby said:


> Wow - I take a little hiatus to come back to this crap from T4. Just about every single post from this clown has been anti-American diarrhea.


Welcome back bud - get those gold wings yet?


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## ccheese (Dec 11, 2007)

Welcome back, Matt..... you've been missed... oh yea... I started
this brew-ha-ha.....

Charles


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## evangilder (Dec 11, 2007)

No worries Charles, I ended it .  Welcome back, Matt.


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## mkloby (Dec 12, 2007)

Thanks guys - yup I got winged several weeks ago and then moved to NC. We got in the new house and were stuck on dial-up for a while, which was the main reason I wasn't around.

You can't believe how frustrating dial-up is when you're used you're used to the instant gratification of cable and such.


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## plan_D (Dec 12, 2007)

Congratulations, Matt... good to see you back.


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## ToughOmbre (Dec 12, 2007)

Good to have you back Matt  

TO


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## evangilder (Dec 12, 2007)

Congrats on getting your wings, Matt. So now, you're officially a flying leatherneck?


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## Lucky13 (Dec 12, 2007)

Congrats Matt, mate....how about a pic of the Golden ones, eh?


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 12, 2007)

mkloby said:


> Thanks guys - yup I got winged several weeks ago.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 12, 2007)

Congrats Brother!


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## Njaco (Dec 12, 2007)

Congradulations!


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## davparlr (Dec 18, 2007)

mkloby said:


> Thanks guys - yup I got winged several weeks ago and then moved to NC. We got in the new house and were stuck on dial-up for a while, which was the main reason I wasn't around.
> 
> You can't believe how frustrating dial-up is when you're used you're used to the instant gratification of cable and such.




Congrats on the wings! Throughout your life it will represent one of your proudest achievements. Not up there with wife and kids but just about higher than anything else.

I live in an LA suburb and cannot get DSL! I've been stuck with dial-up all my life!


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## Downwind.Maddl-Land (Dec 19, 2007)

Back to Thread….

This is something that is brought up from time to time in Blighty too, although usually in a “Bring back National Service” (ie conscription) guise.

I am sorry - but, the Armed Forces of any country are far too important to made the dumping ground for all the wasters in Society. Full Stop (Period to our American readers!) I wouldn’t want ‘em; my SNCOs wouldn’t want ‘em and I wouldn’t want ‘em inculcating ‘My Chaps’ lives with their obnoxious attitude, disagreeable habits and general ignorance.

‘My Chaps’ were far too professional and important to me to have their lives blighted in this way. There was always the odd one that slipped through the net – on my Squadron(s) they didn’t get away with anything twice; one warning only – “Mend your ways now, Sonny or you’ll make me a _little cross_. You don’t like me now – you’ll like me even less if you make me a _little cross_. Trust me on this....”

On the other hand, having the delinquents could have one major benefit; our Forces’ accommodation would immediately have to be improved, as you can’t house criminals in the conditions that our Servicemen have to put up with. The Bleeding Hearts would have apoplexy.

(Congrats on the Wings MK! Be good with those nice Air Traffickers - you'll never know when you'll really need help!)


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## plan_D (Dec 20, 2007)

I disagree on the National Service subject. I certainly don't think military service should be an alternative to prison, but I do think that everyone should do national service. It wasn't a problem in the 50s and it would straighten a lot of people up. The problem is a lot of these 'Chavs' and such are not grown up, they think they are but they're really just 14 year olds in a 20 - 30 year old body... military service would certainly up the mental age.


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## Downwind.Maddl-Land (Dec 20, 2007)

That’s a different argument though, D. The inference of this thread is that Military Service should be used of a form judicial behavioural correction; its not, and never should be. There may be an argument about National Service in general – although personally I don’t subscribe to that. The Military is far better served by Professionals who _want _to be there than a load of deadbeats who _don’t_. And the Defence budget would need to be increased massively which means an excuse for yet more taxes that you could guarantee wouldn’t go to defence anyway. (More likely: more perks, allowances and yet better pensions for Politicians).

The problem arises from a complete lack of administered discipline – let alone self-discipline. And that needs to start at Home and at school. However, it was the trendy-lefties in the Sixties who eroded school discipline and this is all now coming home to roost. To coin a phrase: “they sowed the wind and now we are now reaping the whirlwind”. However, those same trendy-lefties tend to be Champagne Socialists who come from the leafy suburbs that are unaffected by the Chav Brigades; they look down from their Ivory Towers and see “no issues” because it doesn’t affect them; and ‘them’ is all they are interested in.


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## Freebird (Dec 20, 2007)

Perhaps the delinquents could be used in a "work detail". I wouldn't want the delinquent's of soceity avoiding jail by flying a million dollar aircraft, or overseas representing the country. Now if after a few years they have straightened out and want to join the military, thats a different story, I wouldn't have previous misdemeanor mistakes bar someone from service, it would be case by case.


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## mkloby (Dec 21, 2007)

THanks again - maybe I'll get a pic when I get a chance. The big problems with a required military service program are the huge expense involved, plus the issues it would have on morale. You would have millions of individuals that don't want to be there, and would be poor performers. Pilot programs are highly selective and take years, so that wouldn't be applicable - but what about the guys in airframes, flightline, maintenance control? There would be a major problem throughout all the MOS groups. The proverbial 10% would be multiplied many times.


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## plan_D (Dec 21, 2007)

I would never think of criminals being used in any of the technical sides of warfare. I do think that National Service should be reintroduced, the many people who did it found no quarrels with serving abroad [ a lot did ] and from what I've heard they were professional. Of course a person who wants to be there is going to be a better soldier than someone who is forced, but you then do have the hope of national pride (which did exist) that aided those in National Service to be good soldiers for their nation. 

On the case of prisoners; Jail or Military? Jail. The military is a professional force; the only place I would see National Service personell serving is in the infantry, armour, artillery sectors... leave the flying, intelligence gathering, comms to the professionals. I'm certainly not saying that any old idiot can drive a tank, or shoot a rifle in a professional and effective manner - but training an infantryman is a lot easier than training a pilot.

In the ideal world I could say that the money used to supply benefits to those undeserving wasters could be used to fund the National Service program. But it would be another failure of government and I would be naive to expect anything other than more gold in the politicians pockets.


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