# Bachem Ba 349 B-1 Natter



## johnbr (Oct 7, 2017)

Bachem Ba 349 B-1 Natter (Viper)


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## stona (Oct 7, 2017)

I couldn't help noticing the bulky form of the Ju 290 in the background of the first image 






Cheers
Steve


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## pbehn (Oct 7, 2017)

johnbr said:


> Bachem Ba 349 B-1 Natter (Viper)


Great pics, I hadn't head of it before.

Cant understand why they translate Natter to Viper when it is a nadder now called an adder.


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## stona (Oct 7, 2017)

It was a crack pot scheme, laughed out of the RLM according to Erich Bachem himself. He tried to get Galland to intervene but when that failed went to Himmler. 24 hours after Bachem's meeting with Himmler he was informed that he had immediate approval for his BP-20 project, now under the RLM designation Ba 349.

Helmutt Schlepp of the RLM remembered.

_"We ran the show, and that show didn't include Erich Bachem's vertically launched manned missile, at least until Reichsfuhrer-SS Himmler intervened."_

The Ba 349 remained an SS project, under the leadership of Waffen-SS General Wolff. 200 'wounded' SS personnel were assigned to the Bachem Werke at Waldsee-Wurttemberg under Waffen-SS Oberleutnant Dipl.-Ing. Heinz Flessner. The SS retained control of the project until the end.

Cheers

Steve


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## pbehn (Oct 7, 2017)

stona said:


> Steve


Steve it is a vertically launched steerable rocket, what could possibly go wrong?


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## stona (Oct 8, 2017)

I think we know what happened when a manned flight was attempted. It didn't last long and killed the unfortunate pilot (Lothar Sieber) who is buried in the village of Heuberg, near Stettin. Willy Fiedler timed the flight, but stopped the watch at 55 seconds, the point where the M-23 arced over the vertical and started to dive, still under power, towards the ground. It was a few seconds later that Sieber crashed. The entire flight lasted barely a minute.

He is honored each year by the modern Luftwaffe as the first man to have made a vertical take off in a bi-fuelled liquid rocket. It would be many years before anyone did so again.

Cheers

Steve


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## pbehn (Oct 8, 2017)

stona said:


> I think we know what happened when a manned flight was attempted. It didn't last long and killed the unfortunate pilot (Lothar Sieber) who is buried in the village of Heuberg, near Stettin. Willy Fiedler timed the flight, but stopped the watch at 55 seconds, the point where the M-23 arced over the vertical and started to dive, still under power, towards the ground. It was a few seconds later that Sieber crashed. The entire flight lasted barely a minute.
> 
> He is honored each year by the modern Luftwaffe as the first man to have made a vertical take off in a bi-fuelled liquid rocket. It would be many years before anyone did so again.
> 
> ...


I didn't know that Steve, but it is the least surprising thing I have read in years, poor guy.


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## johnbr (Oct 9, 2017)




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## johnbr (Oct 9, 2017)




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## Old Wizard (Oct 9, 2017)




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## Gnomey (Oct 9, 2017)

Good shots!


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 10, 2017)

That had to be one hell of a ride!


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## stona (Oct 10, 2017)

First photograph, first post, shows Dr. Heinrich Rieck and an American soldier by a Ba 349 near St Leonard, Austria. Photo taken 11th May 1945. It is one of a series showing Rieck demonstrating various aspects of the aircraft to his American captors. There is even one with him sitting in the cockpit.

Rieck was working on a new bi-fuel motor for the Ba 349, having been assigned to the project by General Wolff.

Cheers

Steve

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## chuter (Oct 10, 2017)

stona said:


> I think we know what happened when a manned flight was attempted. It didn't last long and killed the unfortunate pilot (Lothar Sieber) who is buried in the village of Heuberg, near Stettin. Willy Fiedler timed the flight, but stopped the watch at 55 seconds, the point where the M-23 arced over the vertical and started to dive, still under power, towards the ground. It was a few seconds later that Sieber crashed. The entire flight lasted barely a minute.
> 
> He is honored each year by the modern Luftwaffe as the first man to have made a vertical take off in a bi-fuelled liquid rocket. It would be many years before anyone did so again.
> 
> ...





Apparently the canopy departed the aircraft at launch and hit Lothar in the head rendering the rest of the flight uncontrolled. Rest assured he never let that happen again.


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## stona (Oct 11, 2017)

chuter said:


> Apparently the canopy departed the aircraft at launch and hit Lothar in the head rendering the rest of the flight uncontrolled. Rest assured he never let that happen again.



The canopy certainly fell off, it is visible in one of the few photographs of the ill fated flight.

Willy Fiedler, much involved with the V-1 and Ba 349 and who went on to a successful career at the Missiles and Space Division of the Lockheed Aircraft Corporation, now the Lockheed Martin Corporation, witnessed the flight. In his opinion it was impossible for the hinged canopy to have struck the pilot. He believed that the loss of the canopy disturbed the air flow over the aircraft and caused 'adverse moments' on the rudder. He thought that this led to a loss of control and prevented Sieber from being able to do anything to save himself. Some of those who examined the crash site thought that Sieber appeared to have been attempting to escape the aircraft when it hit the ground.

We'll probably never know for sure.

Cheers

Steve

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## stona (Oct 12, 2017)

Bachem carried out an investigation into the loss of Sieber and the BP-20/M23 (they rarely used the RLM designation Ba 349 or 8-349, except in correspondence with the ministry).

The salient points were:

1. The acceleration off the tower forced him back in his seat and since he was holding the control column he pulled it back, causing the aircraft to steadily curve onto its back. The auto pilot was not ready for this flight and anyway did not override pilot input.

2. As the aircraft inverted Sieber pressed against the canopy, his harness not being tight enough to prevent this, which caused the latch to fail and the canopy to be lost.

3. When the canopy was lost, Sieber's headrest went with it. This caused his head to snap back through about 25 cm, striking the wooden bulkhead at the rear of the cockpit. This may have concussed him or even broken his neck.

4. It was possible that Sieber himself may still have been able to shut down the main engine after 15 seconds, though this may have been caused by bubbles in the fuel, given the odd angle of ascent.

5.The aircraft was uncontrollable and Sieber was likely to have been dead or incapacitated, incapable of saving himself.

Some of those who saw the crash site believed that Sieber had attempted to escape, but Erich Bachem did not. He would write.

_"We found the machine completely destroyed. The pilot had made no attempt to escape. Of our comrade we found only the left hand with a piece of forearm and a left leg that was ripped off below the knee."
_
It was these remains that led some others to conjecture that Sieber may have been partially out of the cockpit at the point of impact.

Later a portion of his skull was retrieved from the 5m deep crater that ended the first and only manned flight of the Ba 349.

Cheers

Steve

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## Wayne Little (Oct 13, 2017)

Interesting stuff.


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## skyskooter (Oct 14, 2017)

Wayne Little said:


> Interesting stuff.


Did no one film this unique flight?


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## stona (Oct 15, 2017)

If they did it has been lost.

There are a few photographs, taken from two different vantage points, so at least two people had a camera on the day. None of the photographs are what can be described as high quality, even the ones taken before the flight and as Sieber clambers aboard are not great.

Cheers

Steve


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## chuter (Oct 15, 2017)

So, the only thing left to do is build a replica and give it another whirl ... FOR SCIENCE. I'll be in charge of securing the rail road and piano timbers (I've seen one of these guys). We need volunteers for like ... everything else. This is going to be fun!


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## stona (Oct 15, 2017)

I think you'll struggle for a pilot.

Evel Knievel would probably have been the man for the job. He attempted something not entirely dissimilar back in the day.

Cheers

Steve


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## Capt. Vick (Oct 15, 2017)

Jan?


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## gumbyk (Oct 16, 2017)

stona said:


> I think you'll struggle for a pilot.
> 
> Evel Knievel would probably have been the man for the job. He attempted something not entirely dissimilar back in the day.
> 
> ...


There has to be someone around here who knows exactly how it handles after flying one on a flight sim!

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## johnbr (Oct 29, 2018)




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## Gnomey (Oct 29, 2018)

Nice shots!


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## Tieleader (Oct 29, 2018)

Makes me what to dig out my Dragon 1/35 kit with the launch tower!


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## johnbr (Oct 30, 2018)




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## johnbr (Oct 30, 2018)

*General characteristics*

*Crew:* 1
*Length:* 6 m (19 ft 8 in)
*Wingspan:* 4 m (13 ft 1 in)
*Height:* 2.25 m (7 ft 5 in) height without fins
*Wing area:* 4.7 m2 (51 sq ft)
*Empty weight:* 880 kg (1,940 lb) fuel expended
*Gross weight:* 2,232 kg (4,921 lb)
*Gross weight boosters jettisoned:* 1,769 kg (3,900 lb)
*Fuel capacity:* 650 kg
*Powerplant:* 1 × Walter HWK 109-509C-1 bi-fuel rocket motor, 11.2 kN (2,500 lbf) thrust main chamber
2.9 kN (652 lbf) _Marschofen_ auxiliary chamber

*Powerplant:* 4 × Schmidding SG 34 solid fuel booster rockets, 4.9 kN (1,100 lbf) thrust each
or 2 x 9.8 kN (2,203 lbf) solid fuel booster rockets

*Performance*

*Maximum speed:* 1,000 km/h (621 mph; 540 kn) at 5,000 m (16,404 ft)
*Cruising speed:* 800 km/h (497 mph; 432 kn)
*Range:* 60 km (37 mi; 32 nmi) after climb at 3,000 m (9,843 ft)
55 km (34 mi)after climb at 6,000 m (19,685 ft) 42 km (26 mi)after climb at 9,000 m (29,528 ft) 40 km (25 mi)after climb at 10,000 m (32,808 ft)

*Endurance:* 4.36 minutes at 6,000 m (19,685 ft)
3.15 minutes at 9,000 m (29,528 ft)

*Service ceiling:* 12,000 m (39,370 ft)
*Rate of climb:* 190 m/s (37,000 ft/min)
*Time to altitude:* 62 seconds to 12 km (7.5 mi)
*Armament*

24 x 73 mm (2.874 in) Henschel Hs 297 Föhn rocket shells
or 33 x 55 mm (2.165 in) R4M rocket shells
or 2 x 30 mm (1.181 in) MK 108 cannon with 30 rpg (proposed)


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## Wurger (Oct 30, 2018)




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## johnbr (Oct 30, 2018)




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## johnbr (Oct 30, 2018)




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## stona (Oct 31, 2018)

Where have all the wheels come from?

Somebody has been busy in photoshop. The Ba 349 was semi-disposable, the pilot and rear part of the fuselage containing the motor were the only components that would make a soft(ish) landing under parachutes.

It was even tried in unpowered (towed) flights.

Here the fuselage parachute has deployed and the pilot Hans Zubert is falling clear before deploying his parachute:






Here the reverse is true, Zubert under his parachute, the Ba 349s is yet to deploy.








Cheers

Steve


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## johnbr (Jan 8, 2019)

Net


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## johnbr (Jan 8, 2019)




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## Wurger (Jan 8, 2019)



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## Crimea_River (Jan 8, 2019)

Source?


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