# How safe is your city?



## syscom3 (Oct 30, 2006)

Mine is #30 in the list. Woo hooooo! Five of the top 30 cities are in Orange County. Thats an interesting stat.

BREITBART.COM - Ranking of Most, Least Dangerous Cities

Top 50 = 
1. Brick, N.J.
2. Amherst, N.Y.
3. Mission Viejo, Calif.
4. Newton, Mass.
5. Troy, Mich.
6. Colonie, N.Y.
7. Irvine, Calif.
8. Cary, N.C.
9. Greece, N.Y.
10. Coral Springs, Fla.
11. Thousand Oaks, Calif.
12. Orem, Utah
13. Round Rock, Texas
14. Dover, N.J.
15. Lake Forest, Calif.
16. Sterling Heights, Mich.
17. Simi Valley, Calif.
18. Roswell, Ga.
19. Lee's Summit, Mo.
20. Broken Arrow, Okla.
21. Chino Hills, Calif.
22. Gilbert, Ariz.
23. Edison, N.J.
24. Cranston, R.I.
25. Port St. Lucie, Fla.
26. Sandy, Utah
27. Nashua, N.H.
28. Danbury, Conn.
29. Huntington Beach, Calif.
30. Orange, Calif.
31. Hamilton, N.J.
32. Parma, Ohio
33. Overland Park, Kan.
34. Santa Clarita, Calif.
35. Stamford, Conn.
36. Cheektowaga, N.Y.
37. Livonia, Mich.
38. Sunnyvale, Calif.
39. Murrieta, Calif.
40. Canton, Mich.
41. Plano, Texas
42. Warwick, R.I.
43. Torrance, Calif.
44. Clifton, N.J.
44. Newport Beach, Calif.
46. Woodbridge, N.J.
47. Fargo, N.D.
48. Norman, Okla.
49. Olathe, Kan.
50. Boca Raton, Fla. 

Bottom 50 = 
320. Indianapolis, Ind.
321. Shreveport, La.
322. Sacramento, Calif.
323. St. Petersburg, Fla.
324. Tacoma, Wash.
325. Houston
326. Columbus, Ohio
327. Miami
328. Baton Rouge, La.
329. Charlotte, N.C.
330. Jackson, Miss.
331. Toledo, Ohio
332. Macon, Ga.
333. Nashville, Tenn.
334. Rochester, N.Y.
335. Tulsa, Okla.
336. Stockton, Calif.
337. Hartford, Conn.
338. Dallas
339. Miami Gardens, Fla.
340. Buffalo, N.Y.
341. Springfield, Mass.
342. Kansas City, Kan.
343. Philadelphia
344. West Palm Beach, Fla.
345. Minneapolis
346. Dayton, Ohio
347. Orlando, Fla.
348. San Bernardino, Calif.
349. Little Rock, Ark.
350. Newark, N.J.
351. Reading, Pa.
352. North Charleston, S.C.
353. Washington
354. Cincinnati
355. Atlanta
356. Kansas City, Mo.
357. Richmond, Va.
358. Trenton, N.J.
359. Memphis, Tenn.
360. Baltimore
361. Richmond, Calif.
362. Gary, Ind.
363. Youngstown, Ohio
364. Oakland, Calif.
365. Cleveland
366. Birmingham, Ala.
367. Camden, N.J.
368. Compton, Calif.
369. Flint, Mich.
370. Detroit
371. St. Louis


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 30, 2006)

You live in a good place for California Sys, but there's also 5 California cites on the bottom! I see just up the road ole Compton made the grade again!

The City I'm actually a part of is 202 but I'm on the border line of a small town that has an almost immeasurable crime rate.


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## Erich (Oct 30, 2006)

I see nothing in Oregon, not really funny but you could walk right into Wally-world and blow the place sky high. 2 days ago someone set up a nice collection of dynamite on a shelf at 8 am and just plainly walked out not catched


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## ndicki (Oct 30, 2006)

My _country_'s not there, never mind my "city"!


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## Matt308 (Oct 30, 2006)

#324 - Pretty safe really. But don't kid yourself, we have riff-raff too. I think we rank in the top 10 for car thefts. The just caught a guy up here a month or so ago that stole cars whenever he needed a ride someplace. Never did anything to the vehicles (part it out, trash it, etc), just stole them to get around town. They claim he may have stolen over 130 cars in the last year.

One bullet. Just one bullet.


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 30, 2006)

In colorado as a whole we have a lot of petty crime, car break ins and people stealing copper to sell to recycling plants - once and a while we have some nut go on a spree like what happened in Conifer a few weeks ago, aside from that it's pretty safe here, 100x safer from where I came from in California...


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## syscom3 (Oct 30, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> You live in a good place for California Sys, but there's also 5 California cites on the bottom! I see just up the road ole Compton made the grade again!
> 
> The City I'm actually a part of is 202 but I'm on the border line of a small town that has an almost immeasurable crime rate.



Anaheim and Santa Ana ranked suprisingly low. Those are the two locations that have the dirt ball neighborhoods.

I remember in my criminal Justice class last term the instructor was telling me that a lot of the crime origionates in, and is confined into several "zip codes". 

Compton is quite aways away. The crime is usually crip vs blood, or black vs hispanic. Let them kill each other off.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 30, 2006)

there aren't any cities as such in cornwall, our capital "city" is only really a city because we needed a capital city  it's no bigger than a large town, but cornwall has hundreds upon hundreds of villiages, being a rural area, with some of the lowest crime rates in the country.........


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## syscom3 (Oct 30, 2006)

> ....., being a rural area, with some of the lowest crime rates in the country.........




I bet theres plenty of crimes against nature in those rural area's.


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## Matt308 (Oct 30, 2006)

That was just not right. Funny. But not right.


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## mkloby (Oct 30, 2006)

Man NJ is losing its edge. Camden, NJ was the chart topper in 2004 or 05, or both. Trenton and Newark, NJ usually spot up high scores on the dangerous list as well. I almost got wasted in Trenton on fine summer night. Brick has been up there as the safest for a while too I think.


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 30, 2006)

I used to play hockey in southern NJ close to Camden, over 30 years ago the place was a sh*thole then.


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## mkloby (Oct 30, 2006)

Flyboy your a** might get shot there nowadays! It's actually not bad right on the water across from philly, where the USS New Jersey and aquarium are - but beyond that - you better pack and wear kevlar.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 30, 2006)

Matt308 said:


> That was just not right. Funny. But not right.



Not right? Thats perfectly right, the sort of foul thing that happens here..


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## Matt308 (Oct 30, 2006)

Baaahhh.


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## Twitch (Oct 30, 2006)

ALL cities are safe if you have spare .45 mags with Hydra Shoks.


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## plan_D (Oct 30, 2006)

Of course, Lanc, the town of London with a population of over 8,000,000 is only a city because we needed a capital city...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 31, 2006)

the capital city of Cornwall numbnutz


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## plan_D (Nov 1, 2006)

I expected a Brit to refer to his nation rather than trying to be seperate like some French-Canadian nutjob...why don't you Cornish just join the Welsh and we can have rid of both of you.


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## Hunter368 (Nov 1, 2006)

plan_D said:


> I expected a Brit to refer to his nation rather than trying to be seperate like some French-Canadian nutjob...why don't you Cornish just join the Welsh and we can have rid of both of you.




As one of the English Canadians here PlanD I will trade you all our French (Bloc Québécois members that is) for all you Scottish, Welsh and Cornish. We will put them on a boat today if you agree.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 1, 2006)

I wonder how Anchorage ranks. I want to live near Anchorage in the town of Wasilla but I want to work in Anchorage.


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## syscom3 (Nov 1, 2006)

> I wonder how Anchorage ranks. I want to live near Anchorage in the town of Wasilla but I want to work in Anchorage.



It ranks #212


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 1, 2006)

Try here....

Crime Rate Comparison - Compare US City Crime Rates


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 1, 2006)

Wow that sucks. Oh well I wont actually be living in Anchorage anyhow.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 1, 2006)

Cool Wasilla where I hope to buy my land next summer had 0 murders, only 1 rape and only 4 robberies. But then again it only has a population of just over 7000.


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## Matt308 (Nov 1, 2006)

Adler, you probably have a better chance of being injured by bears rummaging in your garbage.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 1, 2006)

Dont laugh people that I know from there said that the most injuries are caused by Elk!


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## spitfire101 (Nov 1, 2006)

Who ever made that is dumb because its incorrect.


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## syscom3 (Nov 1, 2006)

spitfire101 said:


> Who ever made that is dumb because its incorrect.



What part is incorrect?


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## mkloby (Nov 1, 2006)

I would offer that you cannot go simply off the list. The list leads you to believe that, for example, Woodbridge NJ is a swell place to live. It also lists Birmingham as more dangerous than Trenton and Newark, NJ. I personally almost got smoked in Trenton once, and another beautiful NJ city East Orange which isn't even in the 50 most dangerous.


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## plan_D (Nov 1, 2006)

No, never, NS. I may hate the Welsh, but ...the French have a league of hatred created for them.


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## mkloby (Nov 1, 2006)

plan_D said:


> No, never, NS. I may hate the Welsh, but ...the French have a league of hatred created for them.



Why is it that you hate the Welsh?


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## syscom3 (Nov 1, 2006)

mkloby said:


> I would offer that you cannot go simply off the list. The list leads you to believe that, for example, Woodbridge NJ is a swell place to live. It also lists Birmingham as more dangerous than Trenton and Newark, NJ. I personally almost got smoked in Trenton once, and another beautiful NJ city East Orange which isn't even in the 50 most dangerous.



You offer no evidence that the list is incorrect in its assesments


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## loomaluftwaffe (Nov 2, 2006)

that guy's obviously never been to a squatter area in manila
manila has rotten since the last time some of u folks came, and hit by a typhoon and full of billboards with a fat chick named kris aquino


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## mkloby (Nov 2, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> You offer no evidence that the list is incorrect in its assesments



You're right - but only a fool puts blind faith in statistical analysis syscom. Being from that area, growing up and spending 20 something years there, I have a better estimate than a bunch of statisticians. Obviously factors such as crime rates and such cannot include unreported incidents, as they are not known about except by the individuals, and cannot be included in your most holy list.

Don't get me wrong, it's a useful tool, but a list doesn't tell you the ins and outs of a certain town or city, or a feel of how safe it is.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 2, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> You offer no evidence that the list is incorrect in its assesments



How about actually being there? - I grew up close to the places mk is talking about and have to agree with him.

The list is based on statistics and reported crimes, it doesn't paint the full picture but will provide a basis....


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## syscom3 (Nov 2, 2006)

> You're right - but only a fool puts blind faith in statistical analysis syscom. ...



"facts are facts"....These lists are generally considered to be pretty much accurate as they derive their data from numerous DOJ sources.



> Being from that area, growing up and spending 20 something years there, I have a better estimate than a bunch of statisticians.



Do you live there now? Are you in law enforcement and privy to crime reports?



> Obviously factors such as crime rates and such cannot include unreported incidents, as they are not known about except by the individuals,



I discussed this in my criminal justice class with the detective who taught it. He said that most crimes in the "safer" communities are reported, while crimes in the worse communities are under reported. All that means is the ratings for the safer cities are more accurate, while the more dangerous cities are even worse. Furthermore, there has never been a shred of evidence that the rate of unreported crimes in the more dangerous cities varies significantly from one city to another. So the rate of unreported crimes in Oakland is generally the same as unreported crimes in Youngstown.

Plus most unreported crime is of small value property value, or is in its origionality, a crime commited against one criminal by another criminal. Nearly all violent crime is reported as it usually means someone got hurt and needs medical attention. And dont say "I got robbed by a thug with a knife and didnt report it", as those are one off incidents that dont change the figures and what happened in your situation cannot be extrapolated into thinking a lot of people did the same thing.



> and cannot be included in your most holy list.



Dont shoot the messenger, I only report it. You're free to go and research the crime rates in whatever city and prove to the Justice Dept that they are incorrect.



> and another beautiful NJ city East Orange which isn't even in the 50 most dangerous.



The smaller cities were not listed. And even if East Orange is a hell hole, does it really matter in the scheme of things that its worse than Trenton but better than Camden?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 2, 2006)

Syscom what he is saying is that he lived there and grew up there and that they are not safe as your list tells them. I think that someone who is from there would no better than you....


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## syscom3 (Nov 2, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Syscom what he is saying is that he lived there and grew up there and that they are not safe as your list tells them. I think that someone who is from there would no better than you....



Unless they are law enforcement personell (or a reasercher) with access to the crime reports, then their observations are strictly that. Observations. With no access to the reports, then how can they say with a certeinty that what they observe is factual?

And how can he be certein that Trenton is worse than Birmingham or St Louis or wherever, when he hasnt lived in those cities in this year to make meaningfull comparisons.

And we are talking about the here and now, not the past.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 2, 2006)

Those same places mentioned were bad 35 years ago, nothing's changed....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 2, 2006)

And the statistics are compiled by people in a white tie sitting in a cush office with a leather chair and no real knowledge of what is going on outside there secure little world.


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## syscom3 (Nov 2, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> And the statistics are compiled by people in a white tie sitting in a cush office with a leather chair and no real knowledge of what is going on outside there secure little world.



The statistics are compiled by the police depts who take the reports.

I suspect that they dont live in a cushy office with a leather chair and no real knowledge of what is going on in their secure little world.


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## The Jug Rules! (Nov 2, 2006)

Figures...My state had to be in the bottom 50...


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## Matt308 (Nov 2, 2006)

Its bloody Missouri TJR. Don't lose sleep over it.


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## pbfoot (Nov 2, 2006)

The american cities next to me rate 2nd 36th and Buffalo is 340th all within 30kms


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## Henk (Nov 2, 2006)

I do not know the rating of my city/town, but I know crime is king here. Many cops are just as crooked as the criminals they are suppose to catch. Law means nothing here to criminals.


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## mkloby (Nov 2, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Unless they are law enforcement personell (or a reasercher) with access to the crime reports, then their observations are strictly that. Observations. With no access to the reports, then how can they say with a certeinty that what they observe is factual?
> 
> And how can he be certein that Trenton is worse than Birmingham or St Louis or wherever, when he hasnt lived in those cities in this year to make meaningfull comparisons.
> 
> And we are talking about the here and now, not the past.



Syscom - all I'm going to say is this - that classroom BS you learned in college is good, but it ain't the real world buddy. Criminal Justice is a lot of theory - and I'll leave it at that. Crime rates and reports do not tell the real story, and you're very naive if you think they do. You think municipal politics don't have any influence on what sh*t gets reported and pursued by the police and the numbers are skewed and jerked around? Things are different out there on the streets. You have gangs infesting the whole of NJ lately - they've even been cracking down crips and bloods in Morristown, NJ... a relatively well off town. - You walk down some of these cities and they're smoking crack in the streets, and I'm not F*ing kidding. Come visit some of those places in NJ. The vast majority of that crap ain't reported. Even in your cities on the "safe" list such as woodbridge. The place is going to hell in a handbasket, not as bad as Trenton or newark, but getting there slowly.

I'm not talking about proving statistics to you. There's more to life than crunching numbers to prove this or that true. Experience is way more important and meaningful than a compilation of stats.


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## syscom3 (Nov 2, 2006)

> Syscom - all I'm going to say is this - that classroom BS you learned in college is good, but it ain't the real world buddy. Criminal Justice is a lot of theory - and I'll leave it at that.



Listen buddy, dont lecture me about the class. The instructor is an active homicide investigator with the OC DA's office. He has no love for politicians or idle theory and teaches the facts. So dont give me any BS that just because the facts dont fit your theory, then they are not factual.



> Crime rates and reports do not tell the real story, and you're very naive if you think they do. You think municipal politics don't have any influence on what sh*t gets reported and pursued by the police and the numbers are skewed and jerked around?



I dont know what 3rd world city you live in but police depts do report most of the crime that occurs. The ones that are under reported tend to be low value property crimes. By the way, its kind of hard to under report murder and serious felonies. But I wouldnt suspect you knew that because you havent taken any college level stuff, have you?



> Things are different out there on the streets. You have gangs infesting the whole of NJ lately - they've even been cracking down crips and bloods in Morristown, NJ... a relatively well off town.



In the 25 years here in southern cal, I never knew that Los Angeles had a gang probelm



> - You walk down some of these cities and they're smoking crack in the streets, and I'm not F*ing kidding. Come visit some of those places in NJ. The vast majority of that crap ain't reported. Even in your cities on the "safe" list such as woodbridge. The place is going to hell in a handbasket, not as bad as Trenton or newark, but getting there slowly.



Provide some empircal evidence.



> I'm not talking about proving statistics to you. There's more to life than crunching numbers to prove this or that true. Experience is way more important and meaningful than a compilation of stats.



You proved my point.


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## mkloby (Nov 2, 2006)

Let me just also throw in there that statisticians can "prove" that the holocaust never happened based on population statistics, immigration, mortality and birthrates. Everybody knows that you can make a statistic say anything you want it to say.


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## mkloby (Nov 2, 2006)

You're right, I never took any college level stuff... hopefully one day you will realize that not everything that's written on paper is true... and not everything that is true is on paper.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 2, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> In the 25 years here in southern cal, I never knew that Los Angeles had a gang probelm.


Because you never spent time in Compton, Inglewood, South Central, Pacoima or East LA, but then again why would you? I'd stay in my corner of OC and at worse deal with some wanna be skin heads! But then again you know as well as I do take a 15 minute ride to Santa Ana and we both know how different it is there!


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## syscom3 (Nov 2, 2006)

> Let me just also throw in there that statisticians can "prove" that the holocaust never happened based on population statistics, immigration, mortality and birthrates. Everybody knows that you can make a statistic say anything you want it to say.



What part of the sentence dont you understand....

"Serious crime in a metro area is generally accuratley reported. What isnt reported is statistically not important"


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## syscom3 (Nov 2, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Because you never spent time in Compton, Inglewood, South Central, Pacoima or East LA, but then again why would you? I'd stay in my corner of OC and at worse deal with some wanna be skin heads! But then again you know as well as I do take a 15 minute ride to Santa Ana and we both know how different it is there!



I was being fecisious (spelling?)

I drove through Santa Ana tonight going to school, and it didnt look "odd"

Been in Compton, Been in Ingle"watts", stayed out of South LA and never went to east LA or Pacoima because it was too far away.


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## mkloby (Nov 3, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> I was being fecisious (spelling?)



It is spelled "facetious." By the way, college boy, just so you know a little bit about who you have been mocking with your statistical studies - I busted my a** and won a scholarship, I have two degrees and graduated with highest honors. I believe in nothing but service to God, Country, and Family. I joined the USMC, been in a couple years and now I'm halfway through flight school. HQMC is sending me to fly Ospreys, so they must have some faith in me as a pilot. When my 20 years are up - I'll fly medevac because I have a skill that I can use to help others. I have a wife and a baby on the way who will be here in 2 short months.

Now, what I definitely don't need is a college punk giving me a condescending attitude and mocking my lack of education. By the way, empirical is defined as derived from experience. I gave my opinion based on growing up and spending 20 some-odd years in NJ. Then, you asked for empirical evidence. Do yourself a favor and pick up a dictionary once in a while. Also, know who you're dealing with before you start insulting someone with your "academic superiority."


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 3, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> I was being fecisious (spelling?)
> 
> I drove through Santa Ana tonight going to school, and it didnt look "odd"
> 
> Been in Compton, Been in Ingle"watts", stayed out of South LA and never went to east LA or Pacoima because it was too far away.




Do Santa Ana on a Friday night, even Costa Mesa right off the 405 (Beach)could be a little raunchy....

I had to say at that motel 6 one night - a huge fight broke out by the restaurant and gas station in front of the hotel - Asians and Mexicans - two came running up on me while I was trying to get into my hotel room. Thank god that trip I brought a 9mm Tokarev with me - one flash of the 'hog's leg' and they took off running, one of the few times I ever had to pull a gun on someone with the intent of using it.

You live in a unique situation - you're surrounded by some of the most safest and affluent neighborhoods in the country but at the same time 30 miles up the 405 are some of the most crime ridden neighborhoods in the country and that element sometimes finds its way to your neck of the woods....

I lived in Southern California from 1976-83 and then again from 1988-2003 and traveled extensively from San Diego to Santa Barbara, I've been in the good neighborhoods and the not so good, but I could tell you if you mix the whole environment together you have an over taxed crowded crime ridden corner of the world where every swinging d*ck in each corner of the world wants to live. To me it ain't worth trying to function there (unless you're self employed and live a block from the beach and don't have to commute anywhere, you don't live in Southern California, you "function"). I really didn't realize how bad the whole environment was until I left in 2003 and then came back for visits and business trips. As I stated before, there was no love loss when seeing the "Welcome to California" sign in my rear view mirror.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 3, 2006)

Very well said mkloby and FBJ. That is an arguement that I have had with syscome almost from day one. I dont care what paper says, I dont care what you read, I dont care what people think. The only thing that counts is experience in the subject. If you dont have it, shut up...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 3, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> But I wouldnt suspect you knew that because you havent taken any college level stuff, have you?



Syscom get off your high horse right this very ****ing moment! You are not the only one in here who has been to college or university. If I were you I would back the **** up right now!


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## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

mkloby said:


> Let me just also throw in there that statisticians can "prove" that the holocaust never happened based on population statistics, immigration, mortality and birthrates. Everybody knows that you can make a statistic say anything you want it to say.




I have to totally agree with you there. I have done tons of post secondary education and stats was one of my favorite. I have been in Management for 16 years now and one thing that I know is this.....I can make stats say anything I want. The old saying "stats lie" is very true, if you want to decieve people with stats you can do it.

Syscom I have alot of respect for your ability to gather information and I am not saying your made up the stats or even that they are wrong. All I am saying is people can't blindly believe everything that stats say. People can skew stats intentionaly (was the police department trying to get their budjet increased that year so they creatively massaged those stats to show they need more of the budjet money that year? Not saying thats what happened I am just saying that could happen) and unintentionaly when they gather them. Stats are a tool and a valueable one at that but they are a tool to help you see the truth, but they should not be blindly followed either.

I think Chris, Joe and Mkloby have valid points. But I also think that Syscom stats hold some weight also. 

SO what the hell I am saying?? I guess I am saying that the truth is some where inbetween stats and real experences and you all have valid points.

Mkloby congrats on your soon to be Fatherhood, Fatherhood is the hardest and most rewarding experence in the world. It will 100% change your life for the better (although perhaps at the lack of many hours of sleep, graying hair, lossing hair, etc  ). I know through first hand experence myself.


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## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Syscom get off your high horse right this very ****ing moment! You are not the only one in here who has been to college or university. If I were you I would back the **** up right now!



Yup totally agree, Chris

Damn is this forum getting smaller or is someone's ego getting bigger. Syscom you are a smart guy no one will deny that but your ego gets so big at times it has it own gravitational pull!! Just explain your points minus the attitude and condescending tone and people will not have a problem with you.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 3, 2006)

As I said in other threads, it is how you come across...


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## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

100% agree


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## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

> Syscom get off your high horse right this very ****ing moment! You are not the only one in here who has been to college or university. If I were you I would back the **** up right now!



I'm the only one here who is taking courses in criminal justice, there fore, I have a tad more education than some of you.


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## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

> People can skew stats intentionaly (was the police department trying to get their budjet increased that year so they creatively massaged those stats to show they need more of the budjet money that year? Not saying thats what happened I am just saying that could happen) and unintentionaly when they gather them. Stats are a tool and a valueable one at that but they are a tool to help you see the truth, but they should not be blindly followed either.



We discussed the stats by the police dept's. Some of them were deliberate, some were unreported crimes which may or may not of occured.

It was pointed by the instructor that serious crimes are almost always reported and minor crimes can be under reported. The biggest impediment people have now for not reporting the smaller property crimes is insurance agencies usually want police reports before they pay a claim. End result, is the error rate is small enough to not make a big difference in the rates. Its insignificant.

The FBI and DOJ are aware of this happening, so they rely on multiple questioneers and different types of data collection. End result is a fairly good indication of the crime rate in a given city at a given time.

And as I said before, does it really matter if St Loius is a bit worse than Camden when theyre all wretched places? Seems like some people here are upset that their favorite city isnt as dangerous as they thought it was.

I'm quite happy to see my city up in the safe list.


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## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> We discussed the stats by the police dept's. Some of them were deliberate, some were unreported crimes which may or may not of occured.
> 
> It was pointed by the instructor that serious crimes are almost always reported and minor crimes can be under reported. The biggest impediment people have now for not reporting the smaller property crimes is insurance agencies usually want police reports before they pay a claim. End result, is the error rate is small enough to not make a big difference in the rates. Its insignificant.
> 
> ...



I agree with what you say here and have no problem with it.

But just will you admit that stats are not 100% accurate? yes or no


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## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

> Do Santa Ana on a Friday night, even Costa Mesa right off the 405 (Beach)could be a little raunchy....



"could be"...... Ive been in Santa Ana on a firday night and theres nothing unusual about it. You think its like an urban ghetto there with firefights going on?



> I had to say at that motel 6 one night - a huge fight broke out by the restaurant and gas station in front of the hotel - Asians and Mexicans - two came running up on me while I was trying to get into my hotel room. Thank god that trip I brought a 9mm Tokarev with me - one flash of the 'hog's leg' and they took off running, one of the few times I ever had to pull a gun on someone with the intent of using it.



You always carry a concelled gun?



> You live in a unique situation - you're surrounded by some of the most safest and affluent neighborhoods in the country but at the same time 30 miles up the 405 are some of the most crime ridden neighborhoods in the country and that element sometimes finds its way to your neck of the woods....



That 30 miles is a long long drive and the criminals there rarely venture out here. Theyre content to destroy their own neighborhoods.


----------



## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Very well said mkloby and FBJ. That is an arguement that I have had with syscome almost from day one. I dont care what paper says, I dont care what you read, I dont care what people think. The only thing that counts is experience in the subject. If you dont have it, shut up...



The instructor has 30 years experience as a patrol officer, detective and now part of the OC DA's staff.

I'd say his experience trumps all of our collective opinions.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 3, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> I'm the only one here who is taking courses in criminal justice, there fore, I have a tad more education than some of you.



Wow I almost spewed my Iced Tea all over my computer when I read that ignorant remark!

When I first went to school I was studying Criminal Justice as well, so dont go there. 

That does not make you any smarter than a single person in this forum.

If anything you are very naive and ignorant to what is really going on in life.

Dont think you are smarter than anyone here. That is just you over inflated ego talking and I see right though it.

Since you want to go there I will go ahead and knock you back down to earth.

I later switched to Proffesional Aeronautics, have an A&P Liscense, a PPL, and tons of aircrew experience with over 1500 flight hours (which is way more experience than your flight simulator that you so think in your brain washed world is the same thing as actually flying a plane). 

Therfore with that education and experience I am more smarter than you in aviation things and therefore everything that you say about aircraft can not outright be believed anymore.

See how that works syscom, that is using your stupid logic...

Now I tell you again, get off the ****ing high horse, deflate your ego and back up!


----------



## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> I'm the only one here who is taking courses in criminal justice, there fore, I have a tad more education than some of you.



You are the only one taking criminal justice or that has ever taken it? Are you 100% sure on that statement?

Whether you have a "tad more education" than some or not does not mean that you should be insulting or condescending. If you want to prove how correct you or right you are then if you had such a high level of education you should be able to do so without sinking to insults and a condescending tone. Your superior intellect should be able to that without sinking to such low uneducated levels of communication. Right?  

Syscom suring you know damn well you are being insulting. Mkloby and you got off on the wrong foot whocares, just drop it and move on. If you want to prove your point do so without the insults or tone.


----------



## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

> It is spelled "facetious." By the way, college boy, just so you know a little bit about who you have been mocking with your statistical studies - I busted my a** and won a scholarship, I have two degrees and graduated with highest honors.



Obviously no degree's in criminal justice or statistics. You might know a thing or two about flying an airplane, but not the other.



> By the way, empirical is defined as derived from experience.



Its also something that can measured in which a coclusion can be drawn. And you have not provided any evidence that the crime rates would be significantly different than whats listed.



> I gave my opinion based on growing up and spending 20 some-odd years in NJ. Then, you asked for empirical evidence. Also, know who you're dealing with before you start insulting someone with your "academic superiority."



You are not a law enforement agent, or a researcher with access to the data. Therefore you are in no postiton to refute the survey. If you have evidence to the contrary, then produce it, or do your own survey. That is basic science my friend.



> Do yourself a favor and pick up a dictionary once in a while.



Spellcheck is a leading cause of the decline of spelling skills


----------



## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

Syscom you still have not answered my simple one line question. You have answered two other questions....but not mine.


But just will you admit that stats are not 100% accurate? yes or no


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 3, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Obviously no degree's in criminal justice or statistics. You might know a thing or two about flying an airplane, but not the other.



Since you dont have PPL, a degree in aeronautics, then dont post anything in the aviation threads anymore because you obviously dont have an education in it. 

Oh and since the closest military experience you have is Battlefield 1942 dont post in anything miiltary anymore since you dont know anything about that either...

Im dead serious too.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 3, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> You always carry a concelled gun?



In So Cal - YES! And its the only large metro area in North America where I felt I had too.

How's the ole saying - A jury of 12 or a pression of 6?


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 3, 2006)

This is for syscom...


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 3, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> That 30 miles is a long long drive and the criminals there rarely venture out here. Theyre content to destroy their own neighborhoods.




Oh yea???


SignOnSanDiego.com > News > State -- Man shot on Orange County freeway

Article: News - Man hit, killed by truck following shooting

abc7.com: Man Critically Injured in Freeway Shooting

cbs2.com - Freeway Shooting Critically Wounds Woman

Sys, you can't BS me - I used to work in Irvine - OC is one of the better places in So Cal and yes the crime and random shooting could happen anywhere in the US, but in So Cal its a way of life and it doesn't matter if you're on the 405 by the airport or on the 57 in Irvine, look at the graffiti along your freeways. It could be seen in ALL areas of So Cal. Do you think that's by chance?


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## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

LMFAO


But Syscom just relax and be bit more respectful and people will have no problem with you. Keep going the way you are and you are going to get banned by Chris.

Syscom you are alittle over the top at times but you do provide good infomation. Don't blow it by getting into a pissing match with Chris......Syscom you can't and will not win. Just relax. Syscom now you have Chris and Joe on your ***. Just stop Syscom. Let it drop.


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## Matt308 (Nov 3, 2006)

{Dear Lord. Please don't let this thread end. Amen}


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## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

Syscom either let it drop or admit that your stats might not be 100% correct. The truth is always grey never (rarely) black and white. Your stats are not the end all be all.


Syscom you get into these endless agruements with people and you will not ever admit you "might be wrong" or agree to disagree. You always have to try and prove you are right and rub people's noses in it.

That will not happen here.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 3, 2006)

I wouldnt ban syscom. He can just be very hardnosed and childish at times. Many times actually....


----------



## k9kiwi (Nov 3, 2006)

> I'm the only one here who is taking courses in criminal justice, there fore, I have a tad more education than some of you



Now that right there is just funny.

Stick with your courses Kiddo.

Some of us have over 20 years of practicle military and civil police / security experience. Including working with your Presidents security team during the 1990 visit of Bill Clinton.

When you get some real experience under your bonnet, then talk.

*You have to walk the walk, before you talk the talk.*


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## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

k9kiwi said:


> Now that right there is just funny.
> 
> Stick with your courses Kiddo.
> 
> ...



Agreed and well said.


----------



## ndicki (Nov 3, 2006)

I wish I was - no, wait a bit - WERE as well educated!

BTW, as I haven't read the entire thread, this may have been touched upon above - is there any truth in the stats I've seen which say that while gun ownership in Canada is in fact higher than in the US, the gun-crime rate is significantly lower. True? Or not? 

If it is, it'd be interesting to speculate about the reasons...


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 3, 2006)

Even per capita, US gun ownership is probably ten fold when compared with Canada. In recent years many people have purchased guns here in the US not only for home protection but as a quasi-protest against the anti-gun lobby.


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## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

ndicki said:


> I wish I was - no, wait a bit - WERE as well educated!
> 
> BTW, as I haven't read the entire thread, this may have been touched upon above - is there any truth in the stats I've seen which say that while gun ownership in Canada is in fact higher than in the US, the gun-crime rate is significantly lower. True? Or not?
> 
> If it is, it'd be interesting to speculate about the reasons...




Mmmmm not sure to tell you the truth. Maybe NS (Wayne) might know.


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## Matt308 (Nov 3, 2006)

I'd have to wholeheartedly agree with FBJ on Canadian gun ownership.

From NRA website:

"Violent crime hit an all-time high in 1991. Since then, "gun control" laws have been rolled back, the number of privately-owned guns has risen to an all-time high, and violent crime has dropped to a 30-year low.

More Guns. The number of privately-owned guns in the U.S. is at an all-time high. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) estimates there were about 215 million guns in 19991; the National Academy of Sciences puts the 1999 figure at 258 million2. The number of new guns each year averages about 4.5 million (about 2%).3 According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, there were 60.4 million approved (new and used) NICS firearm transactions from 1994-2004.4 The FBI reports that there were 61.6 million approved NICS transactions from Nov. 30, 1998 through the end of 2005, and that the annual number of transactions increased 2.4% between 2003-2004 and 3.1% between 2004-2005."

...and:

"Gun Laws, Culture, Justice Crime In Foreign Countries 

Do other countries all have more restrictive gun laws and lower violent crime rates than the U.S.? How do U.S. and other countries` crime trends compare? What societal factors affect crime rates?

A recent report for Congress notes, "All countries have some form of firearms regulation, ranging from the very strictly regulated countries like Germany, Great Britain, Japan, Malaysia, Singapore and Sweden to the less stringently controlled uses in the jurisdictions of Mexico and Switzerland, where the right to bear arms continues as a part of the national heritage up to the present time." However, "From available statistics, among (the 27) countries surveyed, it is difficult to find a correlation between the existence of strict firearms regulations and a lower incidence of gun-related crimes. . . . (I)n Canada a dramatic increase in the percentage of handguns used in all homicides was reported during a period in which handguns were most strictly regulated. And in strictly regulated Germany, gun-related crime is much higher than in countries such as Switzerland and Israel, that have simpler and/or less restrictive legislation." (Library of Congress, "Firearms Regulations in Various Foreign Countries, May 1998.")

Many foreign countries have less restrictive firearms laws, and lower crime rates, than parts of the U.S. that have more restrictions. And many have low crime rates, despite having very different firearms laws. Switzerland and Japan "stand out as intriguing models. . . . (T)hey have crime rates that are among the lowest in the industrialized world, and yet they have diametrically opposite gun policies." (Nicholas D. Kristof, "One Nation Bars, The Other Requires," New York Times, 3/10/96.) Swiss citizens are issued fully-automatic rifles to keep at home for national defense purposes, yet "abuse of military weapons is rare." The Swiss own two million firearms, including handguns and semi-automatic rifles, they shoot about 60 million rounds of ammunition per year, and "the rate of violent gun abuse is low." (Stephen P. Halbrook, Target Switzerland; Library of Congress, pp. 183-184.) In Japan, rifles and handguns are prohibited; shotguns are very strictly regulated. Japan`s Olympic shooters have had to practice out of the country because of their country`s gun laws. Yet, crime has been rising for about the last 15 years and the number of shooting crimes more than doubled between 1997-1998. Organized crime is on the rise and 12 people were killed and 5,500 injured in a nerve gas attack in a Japanese subway system in 1995. (Kristof, "Family and Peer Pressure Help Keep Crime Levels down in Japan," New York Times, 5/14/95.) Mostly without firearms, Japan`s suicide rate is at a record high, about 90 per day. (Stephanie Strom, "In Japan, Mired in Recession, Suicides Soar," New York Times, p. 1, 7/15/99.)

U.S. crime trends have been better than those in countries with restrictive firearms laws. Since 1991, with what HCI calls "weak gun laws" (Sarah Brady, "Our Country`s Claim to Shame," 5/5/97), the number of privately owned firearms has risen by perhaps 50 million. Americans bought 37 million new firearms in the 1993-1999 time frame alone. (BATF, Crime Gun Trace Reports, 1999, National Report, 11/00.) Meanwhile, America`s violent crime rate has decreased every year and is now at a 23- year low (FBI). In addition to Japan, other restrictive countries have experienced increases in crime: 
England -- Licenses have been required for rifles and handguns since 1920, and for shotguns since 1967. A decade ago semi-automatic and pump-action center-fire rifles, and all handguns except single- shot .22s, were prohibited. The .22s were banned in 1997. Shotguns must be registered and semi-automatic shotguns that can hold more than two shells must be licensed. Despite a near ban on private ownership of firearms, "English crime rates as measured in both victim surveys and police statistics have all risen since 1981. . . . In 1995 the English robbery rate was 1.4 times higher than America`s. . . . the English assault rate was more than double America`s." All told, "Whether measured by surveys of crime victims or by police statistics, serious crime rates are not generally higher in the United States than England." (Bureau of Justice Statistics, "Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and in Wales, 1981-1996," 10/98.) An English doctor is suspected of murdering more than 200 people, many times the number killed in the gun-related crimes used to justify the most recent restrictions.

"A June 2000 CBS News report proclaimed Great Britain `one of the most violent urban societies in the Western world.` Declared Dan Rather: `This summer, thousands of Americans will travel to Britain expecting a civilized island free from crime and ugliness. . . (But now) the U.K. has a crime problem . . . worse than ours.`" (David Kopel, Paul Gallant, and Joanne Eisen, "Britain: From Bad to Worse," America`s First Freedom, 3/01, p. 26.) Street crime increased 47% between 1999 and 2000 (John Steele, "Crime on streets of London doubles," London Daily Telegraph, Feb. 29, 2000.) See also www.2ndlawlib.org/journals/okslip.html, Guest Comment, and www.nraila.org/research/19990716-BillofRightsCivilRights-030.html.

"


----------



## Matt308 (Nov 3, 2006)

And to continue {Again from NRA website}

"Australia -- Licensing of gun owners was imposed in 1973, each handgun requires a separate license, and self-defense is not considered a legitimate reason to have a firearm. Registration of firearms was imposed in 1985. In May 1996 semi-automatic center-fire rifles and many semi-automatic and pump-action shotguns were prohibited. As of Oct. 2000, about 660,000 privately owned firearms had been confiscated and destroyed. However, according to the Australian Institute of Criminology, between 1996-1998 assaults rose 16 percent, armed robberies rose 73 percent, and unlawful entries rose eight percent. Murders increased slightly in 1997 and decreased slightly in 1998. (Jacob Sullum, "Guns down under," Reason, Australia, p. 10, 10/1/00) For more information on Australian crime trends, see www.nraila.org/research/20000329-BanningGuns-001.shtml.

Canada -- A 1934 law required registration of handguns. A 1977 law (Bill C-51) required a "Firearms Acquisition Certificate" for acquiring a firearm, eliminated protection of property as a reason for acquiring a handgun, and required registration of "restricted weapons," defined to include semi- automatic rifles legislatively attacked in this country under the slang and confusing misnomer, "assault weapon." The 1995 Canadian Firearms Act (C-68) prohibited compact handguns and all handguns in .32 or .25 caliber -- half of privately owned handguns. It required all gun owners to be licensed by Jan. 1, 2000, and to register all rifles and shotguns by Jan. 1, 2003. C-68 broadened the police powers of "search and seizure" and allowed the police to enter homes without search warrants, to "inspect" gun storage and look for unregistered guns. Canada has no American "Fifth Amendment;" C-68 requires suspected gun owners to testify against themselves. Because armed self-defense is considered inappropriate by the government, "Prohibited Weapons Orders" have prohibited private possession and use of Mace and similar, non-firearm means of protection. (For more information, see www.cfc- ccaf.gc.ca and www.nraila.org/research/20010215-InternationalGunControl-001.shtml.

From 1978 to 1988, Canada`s burglary rate increased 25%, surpassing the U.S. rate. Half of burglaries in Canada are of occupied homes, compared to only 10% in the U.S. From 1976 to 1980, ethnically and economically similar areas of the U.S. and Canada had virtually identical homicide rates, despite significantly different firearm laws. See also Dave Kopel on NRO

Germany -- Described in the Library of Congress report as "among the most stringent in Europe," Germany`s laws are almost as restrictive as those which HCI wants imposed in the U.S. Licenses are required to buy or own a firearm, and to get a license a German must prove his or her "need" and pass a government test. Different licenses are required for hunters, recreational shooters, and collectors. As is the case in Washington, D.C., it is illegal to have a gun ready for defensive use in your own home. Before being allowed to have a firearm for protection, a German must again prove "need." Yet the annual number of firearm-related murders in Germany rose 76% between 1992-1995. (Library of Congress, p. 69.) It should be noted, HCI goes further than the Germans, believing "there is no constitutional right to self-defense" (HCI Chair Sarah Brady, quoted in Tom Jackson, "Keeping the Battle Alive," Tampa Tribune, 10/21/93) and "the only reason for guns in civilian hands is sporting purposes" (HCI`s Center to Prevent Handgun Violence Director, Dennis Henigan, quoted in USA Today, 11/20/91).

Italy -- There are limits on the number of firearms and the quantity of ammunition a person may own. To be issued a permit to carry a firearm, a person must prove an established need, such as a dangerous occupation. Firearms which use the same ammunition as firearms used by the military -- which in America would include countless millions of rifles, shotguns, and handguns -- and ammunition for them are prohibited. Yet, "Italy`s gun law, `the most restrictive in Europe,` had left her southern provinces alone with a thousand firearm murders a year, thirty times Switzerland`s total." (Richard A. I. Munday, Most Armed Most Free?, Brightlingsea, Essex: Piedmont Publishing, 1996.)"

And what I like is the citings the NRA uses. You can bust them for their position, but they argue on solid ground.


----------



## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

Good posts.


We do have home invasions. I tell my wife all the time to lock the doors when I am not home. It drives me crazy I come home (dark out) and she has the wood/steel door open and just the screen door locked. Damn screen door I can rip open with one hand in about 2 seconds. Drives me crazy how she does not take it serouis.

Home invasions is one of the reasons (small one) that I train in MA for the last 6 years. I have said this before, I don't give a crap about what the law says when it comes to MA or exsessive use of force. Any ****ing ******* comes into my home I will kill them or beat them until they are within a inch of their lives. That is where my Wife is, my Daughter is and it is our home. I will protect my home with my life. They can break into my car or my garage and I don't care too much. But if they come into my house then it is life and death for me. Anyone that threatens my Daughter and Wife are going to be in for one hell of a fight.

In our city there is a house invasion in the news alot. Very scary.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 3, 2006)

Interesting...

I spent a lot of time in Winnipeg in the 80s, don't remember it having hardly any crime...

I do remember a shady part of town where there were a few hookers and drunk Indians....


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 3, 2006)

Great posts Matt....


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## k9kiwi (Nov 3, 2006)

Excellent posts Matt.

One question.

How did you ever dig up the facts without an edumacashun???


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## Matt308 (Nov 3, 2006)

I learnt my self real good.


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## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Interesting...
> 
> I spent a lot of time in Winnipeg in the 80s, don't remember it having hardly any crime...
> 
> I do remember a shady part of town where there were a few hookers and drunk Indians....




Winnipeg was until the last couple years been the murder capital per capital in Canada. I think Edmonton is now the leader per capital, not 100%.

That shady part of town is downtown and North end. Yes the natives here can be a problem at times. I work in the North end and drive through downtown when I go to my MA club. North end is very poor area of the city and downtown is where alot of those "drunk natives" hang out and beg.

Winnipeg is doing a fairly good job revitalizing our downtown. The city is encouraging businesses to move and build downtown etc etc. They have built new huge builds for offices etc to help the downtown area. We now have one of the best / modern arena in North America.

But it is a work in process.


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## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

k9kiwi said:


> Excellent posts Matt.
> 
> One question.
> 
> How did you ever dig up the facts without an edumacashun???



You funny bastards.


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## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

Matt308 said:


> I learnt my self real good.



I love it!!! Very good one.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 3, 2006)

Hunter368 said:


> Winnipeg was until the last couple years been the murder capital per capital in Canada. I think Edmonton is now the leader per capital, not 100%.
> 
> That shady part of town is downtown and North end. Yes the natives here can be a problem at times. I work in the North end and drive through downtown when I go to my MA club. North end is very poor area of the city and downtown is where alot of those "drunk natives" hang out and beg.
> 
> ...



I remember a big mall downtown that had an enclosed crosswalk over one of the main streets - is it still there?

You guys need an NHL team back - I've seen the Jets a few times while there.


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## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

Yes that is Portage Place you are talking about and it is still there. It struggles at times drawing in customers, at times it looks like the land of the walking dead. Just old, poor and natives walking in the mall. They try hard to bring in the young, rich and middle class but does not work very well.

We have one of the biggest shopping centers in Canada still, Polo Park. That place is always busy and very nice. If you seen the Jets play in Wpg then you would know Polo Park. Polo Park and the arena sat side by side in the 80's. Now that arena where the Jets played is gone, they knocked it down this past summer.

Now we have the Winnpieg Moose Hockey team (Official website of the Manitoba Moose (AHL)) . Mmmm not really NHL quality and it is hard for me to watch. I grew up watching NHL quality hockey and AHL is not NHL hockey. But they do have a decent fan base here so good for them.

I would love to get a NHL team but I am not so sure we could afford it even in todays game. Not enough Winnipegers are willing to dish out $60 - $90 per game to watch hockey. Hell we drive across the city when we hear that a gas station on the other side of town is selling gas for $0.02 cheaper per litre.  We are cheap.  


What were you doing here in the 80's? Did you live here? work? or just passing through?


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 3, 2006)

Hunter368 said:


> What were you doing here in the 80's? Did you live here? work? or just passing through?



Portage Place! That's it! Too bad what it turned into...

I used to go into Bristol Aerospace - they were a major subcontractor on the P-3 / CP-140 program. I was a field QA rep for Lockheed at the time.


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## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Portage Place! That's it! Too bad what it turned into...
> 
> I used to go into Bristol Aerospace - they were a major subcontractor on the P-3 / CP-140 program. I was a field QA rep for Lockheed at the time.




Very sweet. I live about 4 mins away from Bristol. I walk my dog by there at times. There is also Air Canada plant there just down the road and around the corner, 2 mins from Bristol.

Do you know where Assiniboia Downs race track (horse racing) is in west end of city? I live maybe 2 mins from there.

Did you ever see the 17th Wing AF base on Ness Ave close to Polo Park and Jets old arena? I take my daughter there to watch jets and planes take off / land. Also the 17th wing has about 8 planes on display there as you drive into the base.

I have been to couple parties on the base over the years. Also there is a 17th Wing base on Route 90 and Grant. I belonged to a MA club for years there on the base itself. The instructor was in the Military.

I have lived in West end, aka St.James / Cresview for 21 years now. I love the area, very homey. 

If you ever find your way back to Winnipeg make sure you tell me before hand and I will take you out for a few beers.


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## ndicki (Nov 3, 2006)

Must admit...

And the arguments are compelling; although here in France, with suburban* youth unrest reaching record highs (again), I don't like the idea of guns being available to anybody but the good guys, And seeing as the French police have a solid reputation for abusing their powers, that leaves a few Gendarmes and me. And they won't let me have one.  

*For the benefit: in France, the poorer people ( = ghettoes) live in the inner suburbs, and the richer people in the city centre. Then outside the ring of poor people, you get to the rich people who don't want to live in the city-centre.


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## k9kiwi (Nov 3, 2006)

> You funny bastards.



I ain't a *******, an I cun prove it.

I wuz there when Ma an Pa gots married.


----------



## Matt308 (Nov 3, 2006)




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## pbfoot (Nov 3, 2006)

I lived in some apartments at Sturgeon and Saskatchewan didn't like the PEG job satisfaction really sucked I worked all fighter bases and then got posted there full of asskissers and I don't


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## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

pbfoot said:


> I lived in some apartments at Sturgeon and Saskatchewan didn't like the PEG job satisfaction really sucked I worked all fighter bases and then got posted there full of asskissers and I don't



Only apartments close to Sturgeon Saskatchen is on Quail Ridge or Apple lane. You live on one of those?

Map of Quail Ridge Road Winnipeg, MB CA by MapQuest


Sorry you didn't like it here, but its nice to hear that there is people that can relate to my part of the world.

On a side note I used to live on Quailridge years ago.


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## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

k9kiwi said:


> I ain't a *******, an I cun prove it.
> 
> I wuz there when Ma an Pa gots married.


----------



## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

Hunter368 said:


> I agree with what you say here and have no problem with it.
> 
> But just will you admit that stats are not 100% accurate? yes or no



Theyre not 100%, but quite accurate. If theyre only off a few percentage points, like 92% accurate, does it really matter?

I mean so what if Irvine is a fraction safer than Thousand Oaks, when we all know they're far safer than Newark.


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## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

> Wow I almost spewed my Iced Tea all over my computer when I read that ignorant remark!



sorry to hear that. I suspected you would have a beer and not an iced tea.



> When I first went to school I was studying Criminal Justice as well, so dont go there.



then you should now about the various crime reports the DOJ and FBI puts out.



> That does not make you any smarter than a single person in this forum.
> 
> If anything you are very naive and ignorant to what is really going on in life.



Some of you people make my case for me



> I later switched to Proffesional Aeronautics, have an A&P Liscense, a PPL, and tons of aircrew experience with over 1500 flight hours (which is way more experience than your flight simulator that you so think in your brain washed world is the same thing as actually flying a plane).
> 
> Therfore with that education and experience I am more smarter than you in aviation things and therefore everything that you say about aircraft can not outright be believed anymore.



I trust you know more than me about repairing a helicopter.


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## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> This is for syscom...


----------



## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

k9kiwi said:


> Now that right there is just funny.
> 
> Stick with your courses Kiddo.
> 
> ...



Who is some of us? name names.

And theres a bit of difference between providing security at a political event and analyzing crime states from a multitude of cities.


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## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Theyre not 100%, but quite accurate. If theyre only off a few percentage points, like 92% accurate, does it really matter?
> 
> I mean so what if Irvine is a fraction safer than Thousand Oaks, when we all know they're far safer than Newark.



I agree with you that stats are a valuable tool but stats can be twisted into whatever you want them to say, if that is your intention when deliverying them. I am not saying in this case thats what happened, just pointing that out.

A few of the guys (mkloby, Joe, Chris) were just saying that you can't blindly believe in stats. You should use stats and real life testimonies from people who have lived there.

You get into these arguements with people alot. You seem to believe in your own opinion only and cannot see the value of anyone elses. Meeting half way with people does not hurt once in while. Being right or trying to prove your right 100% of the time just loses you friends and wives/girlfriends.

Just my $0.02 take it or leave it just trying to help.


----------



## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

> I wish I was - no, wait a bit - WERE as well educated!
> 
> BTW, as I haven't read the entire thread, this may have been touched upon above - is there any truth in the stats I've seen which say that while gun ownership in Canada is in fact higher than in the US, the gun-crime rate is significantly lower. True? Or not?
> 
> If it is, it'd be interesting to speculate about the reasons...



I think Canada has strict controls on handguns. I do remember seeing some stats that show handguns are the weapon of choice for most criminals that are going to commit a crime of opportunity. That could account for the disparity between Canadian and American rates.

Of course gang bangers would use rifles and shotguns for their crimes, but that is relatively uncommon.


----------



## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> ....but as a quasi-protest against the anti-gun lobby.



 

Its true.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 3, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> sorry to hear that. I suspected you would have a beer and not an iced tea.



What are you implying?





syscom3 said:


> then you should now about the various crime reports the DOJ and FBI puts out.



I know eneogh that in any field whether it is crime, aviation, economics, ie...paper does not mean anything.

I also know not to have an ego that makes me think I am brighter and smarter than everyone else. When you have such an ego, it only proves likewise...





syscom3 said:


> Some of you people make my case for me



What that you are arrogant and ignorant?





syscom3 said:


> I trust you know more than me about repairing a helicopter.



Using your logic, I know more about anything that has to do with aviation. But ofcourse you wont admit to that, because that would bruise you little ego.

Childish that is all I have to say....


----------



## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

> I agree with you that stats are a valuable tool but stats can be twisted into whatever you want them to say, if that is your intention when deliverying them. I am not saying in this case thats what happened, just pointing that out.



The DOJ/FBI know there are inaccuracies in reporting from cities, and they compensate for it by using several types of surveys and sources. In the end, minor crimes are under reported, but serious crimes tend to be reported quite accurately.

If you have taken a class in the CJ system, you would have seen the various reporting methods that are made, and how the results are analyzed. You can slice and dice the results all you want, but in the end, they all have the same indicators that cant be changed.



> A few of the guys (mkloby, Joe, Chris) were just saying that you can't blindly believe in stats. You should use stats and real life testimonies from people who have lived there.



And I'm telling you that the surveys are quite accurate. Unless youre privy to crime reports for a city, you just cant make baseless charges about extensive under counting of crimes. Plus just because you were robbed in a city some years ago, doesnt mean that city is as bad or worse than a similar city.

So what if youre sure that Newark is worse than Detroit, because in the end, theyre both s***tholes. Doesnt make the survey any less accurate.



> You get into these arguements with people alot. You seem to believe in your own opinion only and cannot see the value of anyone elses. Meeting half way with people does not hurt once in while. Being right or trying to prove your right 100% of the time just loses you friends and wives/girlfriends.



If you dont defend your opinion, then who will do it for you?


----------



## pbfoot (Nov 3, 2006)

Hunter368 said:


> Only apartments close to Sturgeon Saskatchen is on Quail Ridge or Apple lane. You live on one of those?
> 
> Map of Quail Ridge Road Winnipeg, MB CA by MapQuest
> 
> ...


tail ridge.... it wasn't the town it was the job worked base ops as opposed to controlling most of the places I worked the ATC was pretty slack in the military formalities in some places you wore your uniform to work and switched into less formal attire while at work "if anyone wanted to visit they'd have to get clearance to cross taxiways etc"


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## Matt308 (Nov 3, 2006)

{Thankyou, Lord}


----------



## Hunter368 (Nov 3, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> The DOJ/FBI know there are inaccuracies in reporting from cities, and they compensate for it by using several types of surveys and sources. In the end, minor crimes are under reported, but serious crimes tend to be reported quite accurately.
> 
> If you have taken a class in the CJ system, you would have seen the various reporting methods that are made, and how the results are analyzed. You can slice and dice the results all you want, but in the end, they all have the same indicators that cant be changed.
> 
> ...



Defending your opinion is one thing but you seem to take it to the next level that drives people nuts. I am sure you have noticed how many times you have gotten into these types of arguements.....you must like them or something. B/c you do not shy away from them. It is such a time consuming thing arguing over nothing.

Oh well have a good night.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 3, 2006)

Hunter368 said:


> If you ever find your way back to Winnipeg make sure you tell me before hand and I will take you out for a few beers.


YOU BET!


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## ma056769 (Nov 3, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Mine is #30 in the list. Woo hooooo! Five of the top 30 cities are in Orange County. Thats an interesting stat.
> 
> BREITBART.COM - Ranking of Most, Least Dangerous Cities
> 
> ...


----------



## ma056769 (Nov 3, 2006)

Who Cares: No one can drive more than 25 MPH in most of Orange county. Even the common criminals are perpetually late,due to being stuck in traffic on the freeways.


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## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

If you dont find the thread to your liking, then dont reply to it.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 3, 2006)

ma056769 said:


> Who Cares: No one can drive more than 25 MPH in most of Orange county. Even the common criminals are perpetually late,due to being stuck in traffic on the freeways.




The point here is So Cal is like an unmixed gallon of paint, no consistency - you could be driving in Costa Mesa, Irvine, Norwalk or Granada Hills and you could shot at randomly. The entire area is over run with gangs and it's evident by all the little pieces of graffiti which can be found anywhere along the freeways. These folks are like coyotes marking their territory and/or where they been, and you cannot deny that right now in the most affluent areas of So Cal one part of the freeway isn't tagged. The point here is the people who live in those areas aren't perpetuating this, its outsiders who drive through leaving their little mark and its been a way of life there for at least 25 years...

In the mid/ late 70s you didn't see much of that outside the "normal" bad areas (Venice, East LA, Compton, etc.).


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## k9kiwi (Nov 3, 2006)

> Name names.



Me.



> And theres a bit of difference between providing security at a political event and analyzing crime states from a multitude of cities.



I wasnt standing guarding a door D!ck Head, I was one of 4 people on the team that organised the security along with all the alpahabet soup departments that follow your president around.

And the Japanese Prime Minister

And The Chinese Premier

And 19 other leaders from around the pacific.

And all their representitives over 8 meetings covering 6 different cities over 9 months.

Any questions?

I think I know how to interpret statistics and figures.

If you need a program to store the figures in a database, colate them into reports and graphs that you can manipulate to prove your point on any given day, give me a call, I will make it for you in about 4 hours.

It is one of the things I charge customers $ 180.00 per hour to do. And seem to have more than 40 hours work a week for the last 7 years.

Have I got a degree, nope.

Do I need one, nope.


I have met enough of "you" in this life to know that you will probably end up in some middle management position with an over inflated opinion of your knowledge and abilities.

Hopefully you will end up in the corporate sector, where all you can screw is someones money.

People like you in Government departments ARE dangerous, you end up putting people like me in harms way. And will NEVER listen to reality.

Having said that, I now I just wasted the last 5 minutes of my life.


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## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

ma056769 said:


> Who Cares: No one can drive more than 25 MPH in most of Orange county. Even the common criminals are perpetually late,due to being stuck in traffic on the freeways.



Is that why I was driving 70 mph on the 55 and 5 yesterday?


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 3, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Is that why I was driving 70 mph on the 55 and 5 yesterday?


At what time????


----------



## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

> The point here is So Cal is like an unmixed gallon of paint, no consistency - you could be driving in Costa Mesa, Irvine, Norwalk or Granada Hills and you could shot at randomly.



No freeway shootings in months, maybe even over a year.



> The entire area is over run with gangs and it's evident by all the little pieces of graffiti which can be found anywhere along the freeways.



Hardly any grafitti is seen on the freeways now (in OC and most of LA) due to an agressive cleanup effort by caltrans. Its been months since I last called in a cleanup request.


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## pbfoot (Nov 3, 2006)

not that I'm familar with the road but for how long


----------



## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

k9kiwi said:


> I wasnt standing guarding a door D!ck Head, I was one of 4 people on the team that organised the security along with all the alpahabet soup departments that follow your president around.
> 
> And the Japanese Prime Minister
> 
> ...



Irrelevant to this discussion as you arent a "beat cop" in the US. No doubt you might know things about crime in NZ, but not in the US.




> If you need a program to store the figures in a database, colate them into reports and graphs that you can manipulate to prove your point on any given day, give me a call, I will make it for you in about 4 hours.



Start slicing and dicing the DOJ/FBI reports to prove I am wrong. No doubt you feel you have special powers to be able to see through millions of crime reports, and find the flaw in their analysis.

Sorry, but the DOJ/FBI figures are far more trustworthy than your ideas.



> Have I got a degree, nope.



Never too late to go to school



> Do I need one, nope.



No intellectual curiosity no doubt.




> I have met enough of "you" in this life to know that you will probably end up in some middle management position with an over inflated opinion of your knowledge and abilities.



Ive met enough retards like you in my life. Know it all's who never set foot in the classroom.

You would make a good politician, know that?



> Hopefully you will end up in the corporate sector, where all you can screw is someones money.



Money is money.



> People like you in Government departments ARE dangerous, you end up putting people like me in harms way. And will NEVER listen to reality.



Good, youre a follower and not a leader.



> Having said that, I now I just wasted the last 5 minutes of my life.



Typical.


----------



## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> At what time????



8:00 AM, and then 3:00 PM. I did get off the 5 freeway 
in Tustin in the afternoon because of the traffic delays due to the 5/57/22 interchange construction. So I had a leisurely 55 mph drive along Jamboree into Orange.

Tuesday was similar. 70 mph along the 55 to John wayne and then 70 mph down the 405 to Irvine. All during the afternoon.

I dont know where some of you folks get the idea that all the freeways are always jammed at all times.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 3, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> 8:00 AM, and then 3:00 PM. I did get off the 5 freeway
> in Tustin in the afternoon because of the traffic delays due to the 5/57/22 interchange construction. So I had a leisurely 55 mph drive along Jamboree into Orange.
> 
> Tuesday was similar. 70 mph along the 55 to John wayne and then 70 mph down the 405 to Irvine. All during the afternoon.
> ...



do that at 5:30 pm 

the freeways are always jammed and you know it - 3 pm on a Friday, it's just getting started...


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## syscom3 (Nov 3, 2006)

> do that at 5:30 pm
> 
> the freeways are always jammed and you know it - 3 pm on a Friday, it's just getting started...



Anywhere you go in the world, there are traffic jams.

When I was at HUGHES, I had an argument with my boss on who had the worst congestion. Jakarta, Bangkok or Rio.

I had to agree with him that since I had never been to Rio, and he had been to all three.....that Rio was the worst.


----------



## Hunter368 (Nov 4, 2006)

k9kiwi said:


> I have met enough of "you" in this life to know that you will probably end up in some middle management position with an over inflated opinion of your knowledge and abilities.
> 
> Hopefully you will end up in the corporate sector, where all you can screw is someones money.QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## syscom3 (Nov 4, 2006)

K9kiwi is one of those guys who lives an uneventfull life wishing for things that might have been.

In the end, its people like him I will get to supervise.


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## k9kiwi (Nov 4, 2006)

Don't stain the sheets waiting for it to happen.

I don't have "ubervisors", I run my own business. Been doing it for years.

Don't work for NO ONE ELSE, don't have to. I control my own destiny. Working with my wife for our sons future. ALL ON OUR LONESOME.

Don't need some young puke with figures up his wazoo telling me what is true.

Truth is just what that person saw in that fleeting instant of time, right when they were fighting for survival.

History is people like you bending those images to portray your version of truth.

Reality is what happens in the next minute, hour, day.

I live in reality.

Your choice sunshine.


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## Hunter368 (Nov 4, 2006)

You guys are so much fun. Just a barrel of laughs around here. Any chance you guys are going to go your separate ways and let it go? 


Yeh yeh I know your answer already just had to ask.


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## syscom3 (Nov 4, 2006)

Kiwi, go start your own thread. 

Make it "how statistics used by the DOJ in the US is completely inaccurate"


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## k9kiwi (Nov 4, 2006)

Oy.

Plonker wot gots da dagree thigamy.

I funk da corruct ways ta says it would bees..

"how statistics used by the DOJ in the US *are* completely inaccurate"

An I didunt need a Celcius to figure that out ( scuse me we is metric down ere).

Hunter.

Not a bloody chance Mate.

Once a Tracker always a Tracker.

Cry Havoc.

And let slip my Dogs of War.

Yup, Bill Shakespare penned it a while back. Didn't need a celcius on that bugger.

(Unit Motto... Cry Havoc)

Sys

When you stop living vicariously (look it up) off other people, realise where you fit in this planet, and actually stand on two feet.

I will buy you a real BEER. (NO not bud)

Until then, keep peeing in the nappies sunshine.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 4, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> K9kiwi is one of those guys who lives an uneventfull life wishing for things that might have been.
> 
> In the end, its people like him I will get to supervise.



Syscom I am getting tired of your attitude and think you are better than everyone else. You better tone it down now, or find someplace else to post...

I ****ing serious.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 4, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> No freeway shootings in months, maybe even over a year..


 Bull - I posted several earlier, here...

Last week, drive by - Article - News - Police searching for Costa Mesa shooters

October - cbs2.com - Police Seek SUV Involved In Road Rage Shooting

October - abc7.com: Police Impersonator Allegedly Shoots at Motorist

August Drive By - Article - News - Fourth person charged in Costa Mesa drive-by shooting

July, Anaheim - Article: News - Man hit, killed by truck following shooting

This one exactly one year ago - cbs2.com - Man Injured In Car-To-Car Freeway Shooting

Here's a time line side presentation of So Cal freeway shootings for last year...

nbc4.tv - Slideshow

It took 5 minutes to find these - you were saying????


----------



## lesofprimus (Nov 4, 2006)

So am I... I read this entire thread and his attitude is becoming unacceptable... Statistics will never be 100% accurate, and to base any opinion on them is just plain idiotic...

I took several classes on criminal justice, as well as having several close friends who are in the upper hierarchy of law enforcement, and even they balk at some of the crime stats that come out....

AS for the safest cities, mine isnt listed and I cant tell u the last time there was a violent crime here in Ocean Springs Mississippi... People leave their cars and homes unlocked here, there is never ANY congestion, and there is ZERO gang activity....

Obviously, we got overlooked in the statistical survey.... But wait, by syscoms reasoning, those stats are 100% accurate, so I guess I dont have a clue what Im talking about, because if the statistics dont show my city as one of the safer ones, I must be full of sh!t and completely ignorant to the ways of the world...

Syscom, do urself a favor and tone it down.... I will give u a yellow card if u do not... Im sick and tired of reading this squabbling bullish!t... Stats are just that, stats, which are used to make intelligent, informative guesses.... Nothing more... They are not the Holy Grail of information....

If ALL crimes are not reported, there is no way that the statistical evidence is accurate.... Safety is in the eye of the beholder, not the FBI or Dept of Justice... If u dont report every single carjacking, how can u say that the crime statistics are accurate... Or every rape... Or every robbery....

U think that every single drive by shooting in LA is reported to the police??? Wake the fu*k up for christs sake and smell the java...

And get off ur high horse sys, because ur sorry @ss is no better in any way shape or form than my sorry @ss... 

Enough ranting.... Cool out sys or the Minister gets angry...


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Nov 4, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Anywhere you go in the world, there are traffic jams.
> 
> When I was at HUGHES, I had an argument with my boss on who had the worst congestion. Jakarta, Bangkok or Rio.
> 
> I had to agree with him that since I had never been to Rio, and he had been to all three.....that Rio was the worst.



So Cal has one of the worse traffic problems in the US, if not the world, you cannot deny that!!!

From a Fed. Govt. Report....

_*Los Angeles also leads the Travel Rate Index, which also measures the difference between peak and off-peak travel, but only takes volume delays -- not accidents or other factors -- into account. The other top cities in that category were: San Francisco, Seattle, Washington, Chicago and San Diego (tie), Boston, Portland, and Atlanta and Las Vegas (tie). *_

You jumped on the freeway before the rush hour started, by 4:30 or 5 you ain't driving 70 anywhere and you know that! Again Sys, you ain't BSing me, I lived there, I know what it's like and that's one of the reasons why I left!

I'm going to post a So Cal Traffic map net week which will show Orange Country at 6:00pm - let's see what it shows!


----------



## syscom3 (Nov 4, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Bull - I posted several earlier, here...
> 
> Last week, drive by - Article - News - Police searching for Costa Mesa shooters
> 
> ...



The Costa Mesa shootings were not freeway related.

The Orange shooting was indicative of something more sinister, not a typical road rage shooting.

And nothings happened in three months. Big deal. Its still a very rare event considering the miles of freeway, geographic size and numbers of people.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 4, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> And nothings happened in three months. Big deal. Its still a very rare event considering the miles of freeway, geographic size and numbers of people.


Those are the reported ones - ones where there was an injury - I bet you put a police scanner on there's a freeway shooting a night even down in Orange country, it the ones where there is injury or death that gets reported....

Your local cities are doing a token job in cleaning graffiti, but its not even coming close in tackling the problem - you know and I know a city like Irvine will cover up some graffiti and 2 weeks later it will be there again...

Go the the storefront windows of business, even in your better neighborhoods, every one of them has a BB or small caliber round through them - whys that?

So Cal has a whole is probably one of the WORSE places to live right now in this country - you can't deny the crime, traffic, flakey politicians and taxes are killing the place and after a while you gotta ask yourself "Am I here just because of the weather?" I would of left years earlier had I not had the job opportunities I found elsewhere.


----------



## syscom3 (Nov 4, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> So am I... I read this entire thread and his attitude is becoming unacceptable... Statistics will never be 100% accurate, and to base any opinion on them is just plain idiotic...



I never claimed them to be 100% accurate, just quite enough to be perfectly valid. 



> I took several classes on criminal justice, as well as having several close friends who are in the upper hierarchy of law enforcement, and even they balk at some of the crime stats that come out....



And what parts did they balk at? As was pointed out by my instructor, some officers dont like to see the results because they mistakenly believe its a reflection on them. Plus municipalities dont like to advertise the the bad things, so the DOJ/FBI use multiple surveys and sources to derieve their data. Remember this is a crime index, that weighs the value of different types of crimes. Serious crimes get more weight and lesser crimes, less weight. It is also a snapshot in time, and the rankings are dynamic. The correct way to look at this chart is to see where your city generally stands. I am not in the least upset my city has been ranked a few points lower than one just down the freeway. I am glad though that the two sh**ithole cities near me are ranked in the middle and not at the bottom.



> AS for the safest cities, mine isnt listed and I cant tell u the last time there was a violent crime here in Ocean Springs Mississippi... People leave their cars and homes unlocked here, there is never ANY congestion, and there is ZERO gang activity....



Many cities were left off because of their size. And if its as safe as you say, great. We can put you in the safe cities catagory. I wont argue with you about whether your city is safer than mine because it doesnt matter. Its safe! If you want to argue whether NO is worse than Houston, go ahead. At a certein point of the crime index, it doesnt matter who is worse.



> Stats are just that, stats, which are used to make intelligent, informative guesses.... Nothing more... They are not the Holy Grail of information....



Many people here reject the evidence because it doesnt fit their opinions. They argue from opinions that cant be quantified. If anyone has contrarary evidence, show it.



> If ALL crimes are not reported, there is no way that the statistical evidence is accurate.... Safety is in the eye of the beholder, not the FBI or Dept of Justice... If u dont report every single carjacking, how can u say that the crime statistics are accurate... Or every rape... Or every robbery....



Those surveys take into account the frequency of unreported crime. At the most severe level, its hard to not report the crime (unless youre a criminal getting done in by another crimal). At the least violent level, property crimes, it is underreported. But if you look at the raw data, suppose 10% of property crimes like stolen car radio's are unreported, that doesnt move the crime index around that much.



> U think that every single drive by shooting in LA is reported to the police??? Wake the fu*k up for christs sake and smell the java...



Nearly every single shooting in LA gets reported by someone. And if theres a fatality or injury, eventually law enforcement hears about it. And as the raw data shows, there are so many similar type of crimes being commited in the same type of cities that they tend to normalize each other out. Now in the safer cities, nearly all violent crime does get reported. And for unreported property crime, its getting harder to not avoid reporting it as insurance agencies want a police report.

End result is the safe cities tend to have quite accurate crime index's while the least safe cities are such s***holes, it really doesnt matter if the stats for them are less accurate.


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## Matt308 (Nov 4, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> Enough ranting.... Cool out sys or the Minister gets angry...



{Well thankyou God for trying. But I cannot expect You to conduct miracles when The Minister steps in. God bless the pregnant pigmies in Botswana, amen.}


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## syscom3 (Nov 4, 2006)

Here's the list of cities in OC. Its surprising to see how realtively safe we are.

3. Mission Viejo, Calif.
7. Irvine, Calif.
15. Lake Forest, Calif.
29. Huntington Beach, Calif.
30. Orange, Calif.
44. Newport Beach, Calif.
80. Fullerton, Calif.
95. Costa Mesa, Calif.
109. Westminster, Calif.
121. Garden Grove, Calif.
135. Anaheim, Calif.
170. Santa Ana, Calif.

The several cities that are not listed and are in this county, are generally afluent (safe) or generally quiet and would place somewhere above the middle rankings.

Only s***thole missing is Stanton. But its a small city and doesnt effect much. I would still put it below the middle.

I bet the results are showing for the three strikes law. A small number of criminals commit most of the crime, so when you get them off the streets, things are a lot better for everyone.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 4, 2006)

> Its surprising to see how realtively safe we are.


Thats not sayin much... If it surprises u, then ur own insight differs from the "Official" finding....


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## k9kiwi (Nov 4, 2006)

OUCH.

Thast got to hurt the statistics.


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## Henk (Nov 4, 2006)

Sys gees mate you must cool down the government already got pissed off and will not take any sh*t this time and are out for some arrogant blood.


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## syscom3 (Nov 4, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> Thats not sayin much... If it surprises u, then ur own insight differs from the "Official" finding....



Considering that OC is part of the LA metro region, its great we dont have any bottom dwelling cities in our county. And also considering that OC is an urban region with 3 million people, its amazing we dont have as much crime as could be expected.

The full impact of the three stikes law is beginning to be felt, so I would say that over the next few years, the crime stats for all of California will begin to creep downward.


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## Matt308 (Nov 5, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> The full impact of the three stikes law is beginning to be felt, so I would say that over the next few years, the crime stats for all of California will begin to creep downward.



Well I sure hope so. I fully support Three Strikes Your Out. I sure hope you are right Syscom. Oh sorry. I'm contirbuting. Those were meant to be inside words.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 5, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Considering that OC is part of the LA metro region, its great we dont have any bottom dwelling cities in our county. And also considering that OC is an urban region with 3 million people, its amazing we dont have as much crime as could be expected.


Because its so expensive to live there, that's one of the reasons why the rif-raf has been controlled in OC


syscom3 said:


> The full impact of the three stikes law is beginning to be felt, so I would say that over the next few years, the crime stats for all of California will begin to creep downward.


providing some liberal judge doesn't try to overturn it...


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 5, 2006)

Well, I guess this doesn't say much in favour of Halifax:

American sailor killed in Halifax bar fight

Too bad for the guy.
I swear it wasn't me.


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## syscom3 (Nov 5, 2006)

> providing some liberal judge doesn't try to overturn it...



Its been upheld by the USSC

Now only if we can only get the illegal alien criminal's out of here.......


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## syscom3 (Nov 5, 2006)

Here is the raw data for the 2005 crimes stats.

I recommend you download the files so you can sort the data as you wish.

Compliments of the FBI.

Crime in the United States 2005

Table 6 - Crime in the United States 2005

Table 8 - Crime in the United States 2005


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## mkloby (Nov 6, 2006)

Man this thread grew to be quite the entertainer. Wrapped up my PCS to NAS Corpus and awaiting the household goods - this definitely brought the laughs a-rolling! But I got to thinking - I don't have a degree in aviation, and I only have my experience - does that mean I'm not an aviator  I guess the gig's up for me!


----------



## syscom3 (Nov 6, 2006)

> Man this thread grew to be quite the entertainer. Wrapped up my PCS to NAS Corpus and awaiting the household goods - this definitely brought the laughs a-rolling! But I got to thinking - I don't have a degree in aviation, and I only have my experience - does that mean I'm not an aviator  I guess the gig's up for me!



Do you have evidence that the stats are incorrect? Are you privy to the crime reports?

I bet you didnt even know the raw data was posted by the FBI.

Laugh all you want. All you have is an opinion or two, and nothing more. Hope your aviation career is more successfull.


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## mkloby (Nov 6, 2006)

syscom - there's a reason that everyone here that's been out and about and has experience beyond books and one professor's opinion is trying to teach you something. All you come back with are insulting and snide remarks, and telling these individuals that you will be managing them. That type of attitude is not going to serve you well.


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## Matt308 (Nov 6, 2006)

{Yes. We're back!}


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## k9kiwi (Nov 6, 2006)

Who was it who said....




> Never in the field of human conversion was so many insulted by so few



Some famous bloke anyway. (my degree didn't cover quotes, only angles)


----------



## Matt308 (Nov 6, 2006)

I love any thread that levies insults to Marine aviators. You know it's only going to get better. Ooohraah!


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## Hunter368 (Nov 6, 2006)




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## syscom3 (Nov 6, 2006)

> syscom - there's a reason that everyone here that's been out and about and has experience beyond books and one professor's opinion is trying to teach you something.



The proffesor is an active homicide investigator with decades of experience. What part dont you understand about that?



> All you come back with are insulting and snide remarks, and telling these individuals that you will be managing them. That type of attitude is not going to serve you well.



Many people have an attitude that if the data doesnt fit their theory, then the data is wrong. And of course noone has any hard numbers to prove the stats were wrong. And its also obvious a couple of people here have no desire to improve their education in the world and would be more than happy to stay away from higher education. And those are the people that end up being supervised anyway.


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## Matt308 (Nov 6, 2006)

Wow


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Do you have evidence that the stats are incorrect? Are you privy to the crime reports?
> 
> I bet you didnt even know the raw data was posted by the FBI.
> 
> Laugh all you want. All you have is an opinion or two, and nothing more. Hope your aviation career is more successfull.



Consider this your last warning...

Cut the ****ing attitude now!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Many people have an attitude that if the data doesnt fit their theory, then the data is wrong. And of course noone has any hard numbers to prove the stats were wrong. And its also obvious a couple of people here have no desire to improve their education in the world and would be more than happy to stay away from higher education. And those are the people that end up being supervised anyway.



No it is just that when someone does not agree with you, you start insulting and getting snobby attitude. You dont quit you can find someplace else.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 6, 2006)

Here ya go....

School Crime Reporting School Crime Underreporting

http://www.criminology.fsu.edu/transcrime/maltz.pdf#search='crime%20reporting%20inaccuracies'

Boston Police Dispute CP Claims of Inaccuracy in Crime Reporting


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2006)

Syscom you have now recieved and official infraction. No more friendly verbal warnings. The ball is in your court. Consider this now 2 strikes, 3 your out!

Syscom I dont understand why you act this way. For the most part you contribute greatly to this forum and start interesting conversations and threads. However when someone does not agree with you, you get offensive and insulting and get an attitude with them.

You are not better than anyone in this forum. You are nothing special. Never have been and never will be. *So get your act together and act like an adult!*


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## Henk (Nov 6, 2006)

Holy sh*t, stats is a guideline not a thing you can use as evidence. To give you a overall idea of what is the situation they use stats not to use it as hard facts, they are not 100% correct and will never bee.

I do not have any degree and even if I did it does not mean you have the right to look down on someone and say he does not know anything. The Horton brothers did not have any degree or education about aircraft and look at the aircraft they designed and build.

Try to reason and not to get personal or try to use education against someone.


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## Matt308 (Nov 6, 2006)

FlyBoyJ to the rescue as always.

And Einstein was labeled as potentially retarded in grade school.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 6, 2006)

Matt308 said:


> FlyBoyJ to the rescue as always.


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## The Jug Rules! (Nov 6, 2006)

Whoah....I step out for a week, and come back and this has happened.

*New standard Issue for posting in the forums.*






*and for the for you sniper types*


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## Matt308 (Nov 6, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Syscom you have now recieved and official infraction. No more friendly verbal warnings. The ball is in your court. Consider this now 2 strikes, 3 your out!]



C'mon Syscom! I've got 3-to-1 odds on you, baby. Papa needs a brand new car!


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## Henk (Nov 6, 2006)

I need the sniper one please. How much?


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## k9kiwi (Nov 6, 2006)

Matt

Looks like Dog is still watching.

Dyslexia rules K.O.

And a few facts (not statistics)

80 % of fatal Motor Vehicle Accidents happen at or below the speed limit.

The most common cause of death in an MVA, hitting a tree or power pole.

The Fire Service is the only Government agency able to record statistics based on race, age and gender.

This is done to allow "at risk" groups to be positively target with prevention methods.


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## syscom3 (Nov 6, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Here ya go....
> 
> School Crime Reporting School Crime Underreporting
> 
> ...



We discussed that in class (under reporting in general). The issue of under reporting crime doesnt change the overall statistics that much (when comparing crime between cities of similar rates). Most under reported crime is of low value property. And think of this; if you dont report a mugging or purse snatching, you do report your credit card's as being stolen, thus it does end up as being in one of many statistics that gets reported.

Its near impossible to not report murders and serious assaults where hospitalization is required. And for the serious crimes that are never reported, they're few enough as to not change the statistics is any meaningfull way. Plus, since most unreported crimes are in high crime rate cities, all it does it make those city rankings worse than what they are.

Again, noone is providing evidence that underreporting of crime changes the rankings. Youre making a conclusion this underreporting is selective in some cities and not others, and its high enough in the most serious catagories as to skew the results.


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## mkloby (Nov 6, 2006)

Universities are not the only form of education - and one in higher ed does certainly not have the right to put down other members based on the fact they don't have a degree. Hell - you put me down simply assuming I did not have a degree. I am disappointed in the disrespect you show, particularly to those who have spent years serving their respective countries - they, in addition to their families, are the ones making the sacrifices to give you that posh little life that you so thoroughly enjoy.


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## Matt308 (Nov 6, 2006)

Well that was bloody disappointing.


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## Matt308 (Nov 6, 2006)

Sorry mkloby, looks like we posted at the same time. I should have quoted Syscom.


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## syscom3 (Nov 6, 2006)

> Holy sh*t, stats is a guideline not a thing you can use as evidence. To give you a overall idea of what is the situation they use stats not to use it as hard facts, they are not 100% correct and will never bee.



Once the accuracy exceeds a certein point, it doesnt matter if they are 100%.

If you want to nitpick about the final 2%, go ahead because it doesnt change things


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## mkloby (Nov 6, 2006)

You may not consider someone who has spent years and years word as evidence. It depends what you value. I value someone's experience over a collection of crime stats. Growing up in that area - I would not raise my kids there. There's that "whiz kid" phenomenon of trying to quantify everything (and I did take several quantitative methods classes - but switched one of my degrees to marketing since the piece of paper is all important) that derails real life experience.

We just moved to Corpus Christi - did I compile or look up reports on the various areas? No - I got in touch with buddies that were stationed there, and low and behold, based on their experience they led me to a nice corner of town. Everyone in the military has done the same moving to a new base. It's not disregarding stats that don't prove a theory - it's about the stats not accurately reflecting life in that area. Also - consider the error involved in attempting to quantify "safety" when it is a purely subjective, personal, and emotional state.


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## syscom3 (Nov 6, 2006)

> Universities are not the only form of education - and one in higher ed does certainly not have the right to put down other members based on the fact they don't have a degree. Hell - you put me down simply assuming I did not have a degree. I am disappointed in the disrespect you show, particularly to those who have spent years serving their respective countries - they, in addition to their families, are the ones making the sacrifices to give you that posh little life that you so thoroughly enjoy.



So tell me what college level courses you have taken in statistics and also in criminal justice?


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 6, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> We discussed that in class (under reporting in general). The issue of under reporting crime doesnt change the overall statistics that much (when comparing crime between cities of similar rates). Most under reported crime is of low value property. And think of this; if you dont report a mugging or purse snatching, you do report your credit card's as being stolen, thus it does end up as being in one of many statistics that gets reported.
> 
> Its near impossible to not report murders and serious assaults where hospitalization is required. And for the serious crimes that are never reported, they're few enough as to not change the statistics is any meaningfull way. Plus, since most unreported crimes are in high crime rate cities, all it does it make those city rankings worse than what they are.
> 
> Again, noone is providing evidence that underreporting of crime changes the rankings. Youre making a conclusion this underreporting is selective in some cities and not others, and its high enough in the most serious catagories as to skew the results.




Bottom line *there is under reporting *so you cannot fully validate what you're saying - true the statistics shown paint a picture of the situation and no one is disputing the rankings per say - its just in reality, based on personal experience in some of the cites listed things are better (or worse) than actually shown in the reports and the second document I posted from the DOJ shows that....


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## Henk (Nov 6, 2006)

Matt308 said:


> Well that was bloody disappointing.



Come on Matt.


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## mkloby (Nov 6, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> So tell me what college level courses you have taken in statistics and also in criminal justice?



I'm not pulling out my college transcript - it's packed up and it's pointless. I have taken about 3 stat classes and a couple sociology classes, but no explicit CJ classes - doesn't appeal to me. But this doesn't mean I'm in a much better position to argue stats or sociology - which is closely tied to cj - than someone who has not. I also have a degree in poly sci - does that mean nobody here can argue w/ me about politics - of course not!


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## k9kiwi (Nov 6, 2006)

Does being a qualified Military Policeman and Military Police Dog Handler qualify?

Civil and Military Law.

Oh and 80 % is the pass mark to be achieved on any test, over 12 months you will spend 6 months on courses, with a one hour test every week and a 3 hour test every third. While at base you will complete a remote learning paper every week, while doing shift work, in your own time.

However to get accepted into the Dog Unit your average had better be over 90%.

18 months training all up including the Dog training.

Stick your degree, THAT is training.

Or am I still being thick?


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## Matt308 (Nov 6, 2006)

Henk said:


> Come on Matt.



Well it was disappointing, Henk. Syscom didn't insult anyone (everyone) in his post.

Listen you're not in the pool. 

And by the way to add my two cents. I'll bounce my creds with anyone. Anytime.


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## Henk (Nov 6, 2006)

Then do not complain if the sh*t hits the fan.


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## Hunter368 (Nov 6, 2006)

Sadly I see this one ending ugly.....


Syscom just stop talking on this thread and it will end.


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## syscom3 (Nov 6, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Bottom line *there is under reporting *so you cannot fully validate what you're saying - true the statistics shown paint a picture of the situation and no one is disputing the rankings per say - its just in reality, based on personal experience in some of the cites listed things are better (or worse) than actually shown in the reports and the second document I posted from the DOJ shows that....



The under reporting does not effect the bottom line. It is nonsense that under reporting of cities that are quite safe are all of a sudden going to jump downward significantly. Its impossible to under report enough murders, assaults and large dollar property crimes to significantly change the results.

And personal experience is what happened at a particular point in time. . Just because you got robbed at gun point several years ago doesnt automatically mean lots of others did too (a few cities excepted). And unless you tell me you are in that localities police dept and had access to all the police reports, then you have no evidence to prove otherwise.


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## syscom3 (Nov 6, 2006)

mkloby said:


> I'm not pulling out my college transcript - it's packed up and it's pointless. I have taken about 3 stat classes and a couple sociology classes, but no explicit CJ classes - doesn't appeal to me. But this doesn't mean I'm in a much better position to argue stats or sociology - which is closely tied to cj - than someone who has not. I also have a degree in poly sci - does that mean nobody here can argue w/ me about politics - of course not!




OK, its established you didnt have any college level courses dealing with criminal justice.


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## syscom3 (Nov 6, 2006)

> Does being a qualified Military Policeman and Military Police Dog Handler qualify?



Military police is as different to civilian police as night and day. And vice versa. 



> Civil and Military Law.
> 
> Oh and 80 % is the pass mark to be achieved on any test, over 12 months you will spend 6 months on courses, with a one hour test every week and a 3 hour test every third. While at base you will complete a remote learning paper every week, while doing shift work, in your own time.



Good for you. You may know the law in NZ. I promise not to argue about crime stats in NZ with you. But you dont know about the criminal justice system in the US



> However to get accepted into the Dog Unit your average had better be over 90%.
> 
> 18 months training all up including the Dog training.
> 
> Stick your degree, THAT is training.



Higher education is the ticket to success.


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## k9kiwi (Nov 6, 2006)

I have no idea who Cess is. He is all yours.

I am a happily married heterosexual.



> Military police is as different to civilian police as night and day. And vice versa.



Incorrect, you must know all Civil Laws as well as the Manual of Armed Forces Law.

So you need to learn MORE than a standard cop.



> But you dont know about the criminal justice system in the US



And you know this bald statement is true because of what?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> So tell me what college level courses you have taken in statistics and also in criminal justice?



So since when does someone who has taken courses in statistics and criminal justice become more intelligent than someone who has not.

You really do need to get out more and get a life....


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## syscom3 (Nov 6, 2006)

> I have no idea who Cess is. He is all yours.
> 
> I am a happily married heterosexual.



I am not interested in your sex life


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## Matt308 (Nov 6, 2006)

k9kiwi said:


> I have no idea who Cess is. He is all yours.
> 
> I am a happily married heterosexual.


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## syscom3 (Nov 6, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> So since when does someone who has taken courses in statistics and criminal justice become more intelligent than someone who has not.
> 
> You really do need to get out more and get a life....



These college courses are quite informative and interesting, especially when the instructors are experts in the actual field and are teaching it because they like too.

You do learn quite a lot.

I should tell you about the field trip I took last month to the Los Angeles Coroners Office to see what they do down in the basement.

Their motto is "our day starts when yours ends"


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 6, 2006)

> And personal experience is what happened at a particular point in time. . Just because you got robbed at gun point several years ago doesnt automatically mean lots of others did too (a few cities excepted). And unless you tell me you are in that localities police dept and had access to all the police reports, then you have no evidence to prove otherwise.


I've shown earlier that there are shootings and other crimes that you claimed don't exist in OC - bottom line in So Cal you could live in a "crimeless" neighborhood and a few miles away bloods and crips (or in OC Asian and Mexican gangs) could be blasting away at each other as well as innocents in the local area - there are few if any other places in the US that has that situation - bottom line So Cal, including OC isn't as safe as the statistics show, here again is that 2005 freway shooting recap - not even whent he freeway snipers (Malvo) was on the loose does it match So Cal on a business as usual basis. And once again, here's the NBC report on 2005 freeway shootings, there were a few in OC

nbc4.tv - Slideshow

BTW I wan't robbed - I put my 9mm to the dipshits head - I think he's still running down Harbor Blvd.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Higher education is the ticket to success.



Thats funny. A buddy of mine who has no college degree is making about 200,000 dollars a year more than me right now.

Wow that must be a fluke!

That is about the most stupid thing I have ever heard come out of your pie hole! I know many many people who are pilots and aircraft technicians that have no college degree and they are loads more successful and have done more with there life than you ever will.

I repeat myself one more time. Get off your high horse. You allready have your one official warning that you will recieve. 

Oh and syscom dont ignore me this time!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> These college courses are quite informative and interesting, especially when the instructors are experts in the actual field and are teaching it because they like too.
> 
> You do learn quite a lot.
> 
> ...



And you point being. So I did not take courses in statistics but rather physics, aviation law, and so forth. So that makes me less smart than you? These college courses are quite informative and interesting, especially when the instructors are experts in the actual field and are teaching it because they like too.

Does that sound familiar syscom?

You do learn quite a lot.

Oh and as for the coronors office, dont bother. Does not interest me. I guess since I am not interested in statistics, coronor offices and crime, I am not successful as you are syscom. Huh is that the case, is that true?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2006)

Lets see problems with crime reporting that I have found. These are instances where crime reports were found to be 15 to 20 percent lower than what they really were.

Ex-Commish Raised Questions During Tenure
Kevin Clark Points To Audit Into Crime Reporting

BALTIMORE -- Baltimore's previous police commissioner told the WBAL-TV 11 News I-Team in an exclusive interview that City Hall put the brakes on a deeper examination of the city's crime numbers.

The 11 News I-Team uncovered the former commissioner's crime audit that revealed problems in crime reporting at the time.

In an interview in New York, former Baltimore City Police Commissioner Kevin Clark detailed, for the first time, what he called the effort to suppress problems with the city's crime reporting. The problems turned up during Clark's tenure. 

Baltimore Mayor Martin O'Malley abruptly fired Clark in November 2004. The mayor claimed too much distraction had been caused by a domestic abuse investigation into Clark. That information was released after WBAL-TV and The Baltimore Sun sued the city.

WBAL-TV 11 News I-Team lead investigative reporter Jayne Miller asked Clark: "When you were (commissioner), did you have questions?"

"Absolutely. I had questions almost from when I was first appointed to the position as to just how accurate the data was and reliable," Clark said.

Mayor Touts Crime Reduction; Clark Questions Numbers

The mayor appointed Clark as commissioner in early 2003. By that time, the mayor had trumpeted reports of Baltimore leading the nation in violent crime reduction by 26 percent since his taking office in late 1999.

Mayor Touts Crime Reduction; Clark Questions Numbers

The mayor appointed Clark as commissioner in early 2003. By that time, the mayor had trumpeted reports of Baltimore leading the nation in violent crime reduction by 26 percent since his taking office in late 1999.

But Clark said the city's 911 calls seemed to conflict with that reduction. In 2001 and 2002, according to a report by a consultant to the police department, the number of 911 calls police responded to wasn't dropping, but climbing by 5 percent over the year 2000.

Shortly after taking over as commissioner, Clark sought an internal audit of the 2002 crime numbers -- the results of which he said raised more questions than answers.

"There were some very significant problems that were identified in that audit, and to say the least, that audit was never published," Clark said. "It didn't get me a lot of popularity amongst the administration, but it was the tip of the iceberg of what I saw were substantial problems in the way that crime was counted in the city."

Clark's audit, now obtained by the 11 News I-Team, examined just two categories of violent crime in 2002: rape and robbery. Auditors discovered problems of underreporting in both categories.

Of 331 rape reports that officers had initially declared "unfounded," auditors reclassified 65 cases -- 20 percent -- as crimes of rape that really occurred.

Of 738 unfounded robbery reports, 109 were reclassified -- 15 percent -- after auditors found they should have been counted as crimes.

Miller reported the audit found other trouble, including a crime reporting system "that allows almost anyone with access to make a change to a crime code and does not provide an audit trail of personnel changing the code."

"The alarm had been sounded that there was a problem with our data," Clark said.

Clark Details City Hall's Response

Clark said, based on the results of the limited audit, he wanted a further review of the 2002 crime numbers of both Part I crimes, the most serious, and the less serious Part II crimes.

"I felt that sampling was too small, it should have been expanded to a number of other Part I crime areas -- aggravated assault should have been looked at, burglary, property crimes -- and the underlying Part II crimes that could elevate up to a Part I; it should have been comprehensive," Clark said.

Clark said he ran into resistance at City Hall with two top mayoral aides.

"I reported it to the mayor. I was brought into a meeting. I sat there with Matt Gallagher (director of operations for CitiStat), Deputy Mayor Michael Enright, and they were very annoyed, they were very unhappy with what had happened," Clark said.

He added, "After the second meeting, I was not invited back. That audit was not going to be published. A reporter had gotten part of the rapes, somebody had gotten information on the rapes, it was published, but that report was suppressed and I was to do nothing else with any crime numbers prior to my arrival."

Miller asked: "When you presented this to the administration, to City Hall, you were instructed not to go any further?"

"Yes," Clark responded.

Miller asked: "Who was it that didn't want any further auditing of the prior years, before you came on board? Who was it that was standing in the way?"

"Deputy Mayor Enright clearly said they weren't going to go any further because the mayor had already been out front and had told everyone nationally that Baltimore was leading the nation in the reduction of violent crime, and I think, at that time, it was something like 26 percent, and if suddenly we were to have an audit that showed the numbers were going to take some type of change, it would kind of leave him out to political scrutiny," Clark said.

Miller asked: "Was the mayor present when those statements were made?"

"No, the mayor was not present. These were separate meetings that were held in the deputy mayor's office," Clark said.

Miller asked: "Did you at any time hear from the mayor to say, 'Kevin, let's go look at the rest of these numbers?'"

"No," Clark responded.

Miller asked: "He was aware of it?"

"Yes," Clark responded.

City Officials Respond

Late Wednesday afternoon, more than 24 hours after the 11 News I-Team first asked for a response from the mayor and city officials, the mayor's press secretary sent a statement, saying "Kevin Clark is not telling the truth. He never raised his concerns while in office."

Miller reported the mayoral representative called Clark "a disgruntled former employee."

WBAL-TV asked for an interview with Enright, but city officials refused.

Also Wednesday, the police department provided what appears to be a later version of the 2002 crime audit. Miller said that report reduces the number of crimes that had to be reclassified and declares its findings a sign of good performance with room for improvement.

TheWBALChannel.com - News - Ex-Commish Raised Questions During Tenure


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## Hunter368 (Nov 6, 2006)

Syscom you bring alot to this forum don't end it just b/c you have too much pride to stop talking. Chris is the law here, you can't win vs him. Stop trying to "win" this arguement.

Just end it Syscom by saying something along the lines "lets agree to disagree" and stop posting on this thread. You have, if I am reading Chris's posts correctly, burnt your last bridge with him on this thread.

MODS always get the last word when they want to Syscom. You have been on this forum (and maybe others) long enough to know so. Stop pushing your luck. Syscom you have said you peace, you are not going to convience anyone here of your point, so to keep going is just going to get you banned. Stop being so stubborn.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2006)

I just found some more info that disputes syscoms claims here. Maybe he will shut up now.
If crimes go unreported they can not be part of your statistics which makes that not accurate syscome.

Violence Against Women Goes Unreported


April 18, 2003

*Approximately half the violent crimes committed against people age 12 and older - including rape, sexual assault, robbery, and simple and aggravated assault - went unreported in 2000*, according to a report released last month by the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS). Reporting Crime to the Police, 1992 - 2000 finds that, while violent crime is reported to police more often than personal theft and property crime, much violent crime goes unreported and that is particularly true for violent crime committed by someone the victim knows.

“This report underscores what advocates have known for years: Many victims of domestic and sexual violence do not report the crimes to police,” said Family Violence Prevention Fund President Esta Soler. “The severe underreporting of violence against women leads people to believe that the problem is less pervasive than it is, and that illusion is dangerous. We need to put more energy and resources into improving our response to violence. Victims of domestic and sexual violence will be more likely to come forward when they know that law enforcement and the courts will hold perpetrators accountable, and that more adequate support and services will be available to them.”

Reporting Crime is based on the results of the National Crime Victimization Survey. The report was written by BJS statisticians Timothy C. Hart and Callie Rennison, PhD.

Reporting Violent Crime

*In 2000, approximately half the violent crime in the United States (49 percent) was reported to the police, according to Reporting Crime. This marks an increase from an annual average of 43 percent from 1992 through 1999.* From 1992 to 2000, the number of violent crimes decreased and “the overall percentage of crime reported to police increased,” the report concludes.

Serious violent crime, which excludes the “verbal threats and minor injuries” that constitute simple assault, was reported to police at a higher percentage than overall violent crime: 53 percent compared with 43 percent, according to Reporting Crime. Fifty-five percent of aggravated assaults were reported to the police and 38 percent of simple assaults were reported.

Victims of violent crime are more likely to report crimes committed by strangers, finds the report. A “nonstranger” is defined in Reporting Crime as an intimate, friend/acquaintance or other relative. Forty-five percent of violent crime committed by a stranger was reported to the police, and 41 percent committed by a “nonstranger” was reported. When the relationship between the victim and the attacker is unknown, 43 percent of the crimes are reported to the police.

Reporting Crime examines the reasons that victims did or did not report crimes to the police. The most common reason given for reporting violence to the police was to “prevent further violence” - 19 percent. The most common reason given for not reporting violence was because it was a “private/personal matter” - 20 percent over all. Twenty-three percent of victims of rape/sexual assault said it was a “private/personal matter.” Twelve percent of rape/sexual assault victims said “fear of reprisal” was the reason they did not report the crime to the police. Six percent did not report to protect the offender, three percent because it was “not clear a crime occurred,” and two percent do not report the crime to the police because of lack of proof.

Violence Against Women

Overall, violence against females was more likely to be reported than violence against males, finds the report. This includes all forms of crime, not just intimate partner violence, rape/sexual assault or other forms of violence against women. From 1992-2000, 47 percent of the violent crime crimes against females were reported to the police and 40 of violent crime against males were reported, according to Reporting Crime.

In 2000, 48 percent of rapes/sexual assaults committed were reported to the police, according to the report. This marks an increase from 1999, when only one-quarter (25 percent) of the rapes/sexual assaults were reported. On average, from 1992 through 2000, 31 percent of rapes/sexual assaults committed were reported. Thirty-two percent of rapes/sexual assaults with female victims were reported to the police and 27 percent of the rapes/sexual assaults with male victims were reported. But, the report notes, the “differences in percentages of reporting rape/sexual assault for male and female victims were not ’statistically significant.’”

Victims of rape/sexual assault were more likely to report the crime when their attackers were strangers: 41 percent of the rapes/sexual assaults committed by strangers were reported, compared with 27 percent committed by “nonstrangers.” Just under one-quarter of the rapes/sexual assaults committed by an intimate (24 percent) were reported to the police and 27 percent of those committed by a friend/acquaintance of the victim were reported.

Between 1992 and 2000, 54 percent of the violent crime committed by intimates, including rape/sexual assault, was reported to the police, according to Reporting Crime. Fifty-five percent of the serious violent crime committed by an intimate was reported to the police.

Robberies committed by intimates were the type of intimate partner violence most likely to be reported to the police - 72 percent were reported. Sixty-three percent of aggravated assaults committed by intimate partners were reported to police and 53 percent of simple assaults were reported. The report does not examine the gender of the victims of intimate partner violence.

Unreported Domestic Violence, Police Domestic Violence - Support Network for Battered Women

Here is a better one:

*Millions Of Crimes Go Unreported*

WASHINGTON, March 10, 2003

AP) The nation saw violent crimes other than murder fall by 9 percent last year, marking the lowest level since the government began surveying victims in 1973. 

A record low number of reported assaults, the most common form of violent crime, was reported. 

The drop is detailed in the 2001 National Crime Victimization Survey, which is based on interviews with victims and thus does not include murder. The Bureau of Justice Statistics report was obtained Sunday by The Associated Press in advance of its release this week. 

Preliminary figures from an FBI report — gleaned from more than 17,000 city, county and state law enforcement agencies and released in June — reflected an increase in murders of 3.1 percent in 2001. 

Specialists said the decade-long decrease in violent results mainly from the strong economy in the 1990s and tougher sentencing laws. 

"When people have jobs and poor neighborhoods improve, crime goes down," said Ralph Myers, a criminologist at Stanford University. "Crime also has been impacted by the implementation of tough sentencing laws at the end of the 1980s." 

Since 1993, the violent crime rate has decreased by nearly 50 percent. 

The report said that between 2000 and 2001, the number of people who reported they were victims of violent crime fell from about 28 per 1,000 to about 25 per 1,000. The number of people reporting violent crimes fell from 6,323,000 in 2000 to 5,744,000 in 2001. 

Only about half of the violent crimes counted in the survey were reported to police. 

The report showed a 10 percent decrease in the violent crime rate for whites. It also included an 11.6 percent decline for blacks and a 3.9 percent increase for Hispanics. However, those figures were not given the highest grade of confidence because of analytical formulas that suggest they could be flawed. 

Assault was down 10 percent, but victim reports reflected a 13 percent increase in injuries. 

The effect of tougher sentencing laws can best be seen in the drop in the rate at which people in the United States are assaulted, said Bruce Fenmore, a criminal statistician at the Institute for Crime and Punishment, a Chicago-based think tank. 

"There is overwhelming evidence that people who commit assaults do it as a general course of their affairs," Fenmore said. "Putting those people behind bars drops the rate." 

The rate at which criminals used guns to accomplish their crimes held steady at about 26 percent. 

Victims of rape and assault were the least likely (7 percent) to face an armed offender, while robbery victims were the most likely (55 percent). 

Rape fell 8 percent, and sexual assaults — which include verbal threats and fondling — fell 20 percent. About half the women who reported rapes said the perpetrator was a friend or acquaintance. The rate at which women reported rape to the police fell 19 percent in 2001. 

The overall property crime rate fell 6 percent between 2000 and 2001 because of a 6.3 percent decrease in theft and a 9.7 percent drop in household burglaries. 

The car theft rate rose 7 percent, reflecting a jump from 937,000 car thefts in 2000 to 1,009,000 in 2001. 

Teenagers seemed less likely to be victims of violent crime. The crime rate against those between ages 16 and 19 fell 13.2 percent. 

Crime also fell in each of the regions of the United States but showed the most dramatic decline, 19.7 percent, in the Midwest. 

The decline was felt in urban, suburban and rural areas alike. The rate of violence experienced by suburbanites fell 14 percent. In urban and rural areas, the rate fell 5.4 percent and 10.6 percent, respectively. 

The preliminary summary of the report did not include a state-by-state breakdown. 
Millions Of Crimes Go Unreported - CBS News

The report, Reporting Crime to the Police, 1992 - 2000, is available on the Bureau of Justice Statistic’s web site.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2006)

Hunter368 said:


> Syscom you bring alot to this forum don't end it just b/c you have too much pride to stop talking. Chris is the law here, you can't win vs him. Stop trying to "win" this arguement.
> 
> Just end it Syscom by saying something along the lines "lets agree to disagree" and stop posting on this thread. You have, if I am reading Chris's posts correctly, burnt your last bridge with him on this thread.
> 
> MODS always get the last word when they want to Syscom. You have been on this forum (and maybe others) long enough to know so. Stop pushing your luck. Syscom you have said you peace, you are not going to convience anyone here of your point, so to keep going is just going to get you banned. Stop being so stubborn.



No my arguement is not disagreeing or agreeing with him. I am pissed off at his insulting and will not take it anylonger. One more insulting remark and he is history. He has a problem with people not agreeing with him...


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## evangilder (Nov 6, 2006)

I will say one thing about this whole thread. It's very close to being closed. Taking a few courses in college on a subject do not automatically make anyone a subject matter expert. Does it provide a foundation? Yes, but years of study and experience in the field of study is what make someone more of an expert. That being said, plenty of experience in any field will also give someone some expertise as well. 

I am a network engineer by trade and do quite well at it. I have taken NO technology courses in a college setting. As a network engineer, a college degree doesn't mean squat. The technology moves way to fast for a college level curriculum to be produced. By the time it did get produced, it would be obsolete. College education is a good thing and MAY open doors for some careers, but it is not true in all career field. I know a guy with 2 MBAs that answers calls in a tech support center!

Having knowledge is one thing, knowing what to do with it is another thing altogether.


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## The Jug Rules! (Nov 6, 2006)

Henk said:


> I need the sniper one please. How much?



For this thread, I'll give it to you for free, with a full complement of tungten cored AP-T rounds to go with it.


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## Matt308 (Nov 6, 2006)

Closing this thread... Evangilder that is probably the most sane and level headed reaction I have read in this thread to date. Don't get me wrong, I have immensely enjoyed watching the unnecessary self-destruction of forum members right before my eyes. My personal schadenfreude. Your suggestion would most certainly save everyone from some form of anguish.

And may save a respected member from being banned.

Nicely said.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 6, 2006)

Ditto


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## Hunter368 (Nov 6, 2006)

Agreed. Just end it for the love of God.


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## Hunter368 (Nov 6, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> No my arguement is not disagreeing or agreeing with him. I am pissed off at his insulting and will not take it anylonger. One more insulting remark and he is history. He has a problem with people not agreeing with him...




Sorry Chris I didn't mean agreeing and disagreeing I worded it poorly. I meant for Syscom just to drop this subject.

I know we don't have to agree with the Mods, believe me I have debated with all the Mods before (including Dan).

I just wanted Syscom to drop this whole thread before he pisses you and Joe off too much and get himself banned b/c of his tone.

Sorry for the misunderstanding and I look forward to "debating" with you again.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 6, 2006)

Thread closed.


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