# Which side arm?



## MacArther (Sep 17, 2006)

If you were to start your own military force, along with your own country (that would be the hopeful thing anyway), what side arm would you set for your military forces? I'm going for general side arm, so if you have *one* secondary sidearm for Spec Ops or the like, that is ok too. These are all pistols, because the PDW and the like would not realistically be lugged around _with_ and assault rifle, its ammo, and the PDW and its ammo. Personally, I would take the "baby Eagle" in .45, or if supplies of that cannot be met, the full sized Desert Eagle in .357, .44, or .50 (I couldn't decide which would be the most effective in the field, vs friendly to opperator). If I was going to have a secondary pistol for Spec Ops and the like, I would choose the Springfield 1911 new production series model.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 17, 2006)

For Spec Ops, as I am familiar with, I would choose a silenced HK Mark23 .40cal S&W...

Otherwise, in the 9mm catagory, the H&K P9S...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 17, 2006)

Im with Les though I am for anything but the Beretta M-9.


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## solnar (Sep 17, 2006)

I would prefer the browning 9MM, which i have fired!


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## lesofprimus (Sep 17, 2006)

For Spec Ops, I find the 9mm cartridge to be underpowered for CQC...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 17, 2006)

I find the 9mm underpowered period. We all hated it over in the Army. I would have prefered some kind of .45. We found the 9mm did not have much of a stopping power.


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 17, 2006)

I shot 9mm and the ole 45. I did better with the 9 but me thinks the 45 has the stopping power..


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## P38 Pilot (Sep 17, 2006)

I like the M1911 the best.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 17, 2006)

Which is why I like the .40 cal round... Weapon is lighter than the 1911, fires faster, and with the proper tip, can exert the same stoppage power as a .45...

And in the SOCOM world, a silencer is manditory...


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## Chief (Sep 17, 2006)

I would prefer the 1911 A1. It works just fine and if it aint broke don't fix it. 
Like you said les it's better for CQC. With a 9mm there are only 4 ways to take him down. 
1) Head shot
2) Hand
3) Foot
4) Let's just say he won't be having anymore kids.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Sep 18, 2006)

Desert Eagle .50 caliber, one way to drop an enemy in one round.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 18, 2006)

For Special Operations??? WTF would u want ur Operators truckin along that big hunk of overkill for???


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## Chief (Sep 18, 2006)

He didn't see the video of the old guy shooting the Desert Eagle at a shooting range did he? Nearly nailed him in the face.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 18, 2006)

Chief said:


> I would prefer the 1911 A1. It works just fine and if it aint broke don't fix it.
> Like you said les it's better for CQC. With a 9mm there are only 4 ways to take him down.
> 1) Head shot
> 2) Hand
> ...



Have you ever tried to hit someone in those 4 spots when the **** hits the fan (I am not talking about Spec OPs close quarters here, I am talking on the battle field)?

It ain that easy with a 9mm Baretta (atleast not the ones that we have in the Army which are falling apart pieces of ****). Your best shot is a hit to the chest.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 18, 2006)

i think he was making comment about the effectiveness of the 9mm round, saying that only hitting them in those places would stop a man..........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 18, 2006)

Oh I see.....


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## MacArther (Sep 18, 2006)

On the subject of the full sized Desert Eagle, which caliber would you prefer it in if you HAD to have it in you military: .44, .357, or .50? On a somewhat related note, I just recently saw the carrying and loading areas for the AR-15's made to fire the snub nose .50, and if that were used it would HURT LIKE **** to be hit by, although the weight restrictions associated with the ammo dictates that general military use is HIGHLY unlikely. Also, If I remember correctly, the Baby Eagle does come in the .40 caliber that the SOCOM and the like forces use. Also, I have very scetchy details about the FiveSeven, the primary weapon in Splinter Cell. I know it exists, it uses a 5.7mm round, but that is about it. Anyone know what the stopping power on that thing is? Accuracy? Range?


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## lesofprimus (Sep 18, 2006)

.357 cartridge for the DE, and the 57 is a high velocity round that has very little stopping power...

Nice new siggy Chris...


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## Chief (Sep 18, 2006)

Chief said:


> I would prefer the 1911 A1. It works just fine and if it aint broke don't fix it.
> 
> Like you said les it's better for CQC. With a 9mm there are only 4 ways to take him down.
> 1) Head shot
> ...



The ways to take someone down with a 1911?
1) Anywhere without missing.

____
Can Someone tell me how many Barreta 9mm rounds you're issued with and how many 1911 .45 rounds you would be issued?


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 18, 2006)

Tom Cruise and Baloo........Thats


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## lesofprimus (Sep 19, 2006)

Glad u like it...


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Sep 19, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> For Special Operations??? WTF would u want ur Operators truckin along that big hunk of overkill for???



Special operations!? I'm not that keen in military as some of you guys are, but I wouldn't equip my special forces with that. I should have added that I would issue the desert eagle to MPs for riot control. For combat operations, use the .45 or a 9mm.


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## MacArther (Sep 19, 2006)

> would issue the desert eagle to MPs for riot control


Imagine the drop in crime rate and riots we would see if all MPs and Police officers were required to carry a Desert Eagle in plain sight. The rioters or would be crooks would be more concerned about not being on the buisness end of the gun rather than their bad ideas and deeds.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Sep 19, 2006)

MacArther said:


> Imagine the drop in crime rate and riots we would see if all MPs and Police officers were required to carry a Desert Eagle in plain sight. The rioters or would be crooks would be more concerned about not being on the buisness end of the gun rather than their bad ideas and deeds.



Yeah, thats like what I had in mind. the standard issued Beretta in my opinion is decent and has a 15/16 round clip, but the stopping power is not as great as a Desert Eagle. With a Desert Eagle the round would do more damage to a crook if he somehow acquired kevlar or was on PCP( though if he would feel it is beyond me). 

Also, I have a question about this gun I use playing Counter Strike. It's called a Nighthawk .50 caliber, does such a gun design exist?


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## Soren (Sep 19, 2006)

I'll take my old an trusty Sig Sauer P210 "Neuhausen" as it served me very well in my time. And eventhough it uses the same round as the M9 Beretta, the 9mm parabellum, it is tenfold the gun and packs more than enough punch for the situations in which it was needed.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 19, 2006)

If u had an enraged tribesman comin at u from 20 feet away with a nasty-*** rusted out machete, u gonna wish to God u had something OTHER than a 9mm cartridge...

Talkin personal experience here, if it aint .40 cal or higher, ur gonna have problems...


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## Soren (Sep 19, 2006)

No problem, I was always a great shot Les  A 9mm shot to his head or the middle of his chest and he drops like a stone unable to hurt you at all. (Also the bullets we used weren't always exactly "std.issue") 

Anyway my point is, what good is any pistol in that situation if you can't hit straight ? But I agree, the .40 S&W is a better round, its just my 9mm Neuhausen never failed me 

Anyways, an angry tribesman with a machete 20ft away sounds nasty though, how did you end up in such a situation ?


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## Soren (Sep 19, 2006)

double post


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## Erich (Sep 19, 2006)

actually screw the hand gun for close action in special ops...... give me a double edged blade, one side with saw-teeth. The VC hated us when we adopted the same close knit "quiet" guerilla tactics as we had the size preference, as we "hunted" always in 3's


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 20, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> If u had an enraged tribesman comin at u from 20 feet away with a nasty-*** rusted out machete, u gonna wish to God u had something OTHER than a 9mm cartridge...
> 
> Talkin personal experience here, if it aint .40 cal or higher, ur gonna have problems...



Gotta agree with you. Based off my experience I dont like the 9mm atleast the Barettas that we had.


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## MacArther (Sep 20, 2006)

The only 9mm gun I would willingly carry if I had a choice would be a Walther PPK, and even then, only as a weapon of last resort. No, its not for the James Bond factor, its because its great for concealment.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 20, 2006)

Ive allways like the PPK because of the James Bond factor.


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## MacArther (Sep 20, 2006)

> Ive allways like the PPK because of the James Bond factor.


I like for that too, but I mostly like it just for the concealability.


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## Chief (Sep 20, 2006)

Can someone tell me how many 9mm magazines issued in the Berreta and how many .45 magazines you would be issued for the 1911?

Aren't some branches still issuing PPK's to there officers?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 20, 2006)

Well the standard issue for us when we flew out on a combat mission in Iraq for our 9mm Barretta was two 15 round clips but they handed out ammo like candy over there so we rounded up so many clips and I had one clip in the gun with a round chambered and 2 clips in my holster plus about 4 more clips in my flight bag for a total of 105 rounds.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Sep 20, 2006)

Hey Adler, why did the U.S. Army switch to the 9MM from the .45?


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## Soren (Sep 20, 2006)

More rounds pr clip, thats pretty much it.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Sep 20, 2006)

ah, but, wouldn't stopping power be better than clip size?


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## Soren (Sep 20, 2006)

Ofcourse it would, and the Beretta's only forte is its large clip. The US army would've been much better off with the FN Browning High Power or the Neuhausen.

The reason I love the Neuhausen is because of its truly exceptional accuracy and high muzzle velocity of some 380 m/s with the std. 9mm 124gr round, thats 578 Joules of kinetic energy, so it packs a good punch as-well.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Sep 20, 2006)

ah, the why the change?


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## Matt308 (Sep 20, 2006)

.45 has more recoil than 9mm, 1911's were getting old, 1911 single action was viewed as less than ideal (unsafe to scoot and shoot with sidearm cocked and locked), more 9mm can fit in clip, NATO adopted round, and average soldier skill level was [supposedly] better matched with 9mm.

I love my Beretta. However, the grip circumference is too large for small handed people. The trigger reach is ridiculous in double action, but if maintained the action is smooth as butter right out of the box with no tuning.

I like the 1911, like the round, but hate the hammerbite with the GI grip safety.

My philosophy is don't lose your rifle. However, any hit with any caliber pistol/revolver is better than a miss. And with a DE .50AE, you are going to miss. A lot. Makes a better boat anchor.

My choice? In order of preference

1) Glock 22

2) CZ-75

3) Browning HiPower

You can't beat a Glock for simplicity, maintenance, and sheer ruggedness.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 20, 2006)

Matt308 said:


> I love my Beretta. However, the grip circumference is too large for small handed people. The trigger reach is ridiculous in double action, but if maintained the action is smooth as butter right out of the box with no tuning.



I can not stand my Baretta. It has been used to much and over the years just cant hack it anymore. The parts are constantly having to be replaced such as the spring and what not. Dont like the stopping power of it either.


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## Erich (Sep 20, 2006)

curious Chris were you guys ever issued special .45 auto's ? nothing like a mini gun with 15-18 round special "silly" clips


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## lesofprimus (Sep 20, 2006)

Soren, said situation happened in Somolia...

And as far as the "What if" situation, I would use what I always used for CQC, a stumped sawed off Mossberg with 00 shot... Saved my life several times...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 20, 2006)

Erich said:


> curious Chris were you guys ever issued special .45 auto's ? nothing like a mini gun with 15-18 round special "silly" clips



Nope we were issued per aircraft 4 Baretta 9mm, 2 M-60D Machine Guns, and 2 M-4 Carbines.


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## lonestarman63 (Sep 20, 2006)

S F C Angelford was my old friend in the Army , told me when we they were just talking about the 9 mm as a replacement to the 1911 A1 he jokenly said the biggest diff between 9 mm and the ole 1911 was with 9 mm shoot at a truck , you had to hit the driver in the head , with the 1911 you shot the truck


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 21, 2006)

> More rounds pr clip, thats pretty much it.



sounds like the Americans


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 21, 2006)

Sometimes that can be a good thing Lanc.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Sep 21, 2006)

What about the Heckler and Koch VP70, it has an 18 round clip instead of the 15 round clip the Beretta offers.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 21, 2006)

With a heavy and long trigger pull, it does not help to improve accuracy.... And its also a 9mm.....

As this thread is titled, for Special Operations, the need for stopping power is paramount, and the 9mm round does not hack it...

If we need to continue this, lets revolve around the heavier cartridges, such as the .40 cal, which is the most ideally suited for the scope of this discussion....

As I said at the beginning of this thread, the Heckler and Koch Mark 23 .40 S&W,




which is currently the weapon of choice for USSOCOM Operators, is the sidearm to beat...


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## Soren (Sep 21, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> Soren, said situation happened in Somolia...
> 
> And as far as the "What if" situation, I would use what I always used for CQC, a stumped sawed off Mossberg with 00 shot... Saved my life several times...



Agreed completely, nothing beats a shotgun up-close...

But as to which is the best Spec Ops pistol, well overall you're probably right Les, today it is the .40cal HK Mk.23, but in some key area's I know my P210 will still beat the crap out of it though.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 21, 2006)

Id with the same as well. HK makes some damn good guns. I have a friend that was supposed to start working for HK. Not sure if he did though or not.


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## Soren (Sep 21, 2006)




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## Matt308 (Sep 21, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> As I said at the beginning of this thread, the Heckler and Koch Mark 23 .40 S&W,
> 
> 
> 
> which is currently the weapon of choice for USSOCOM Operators, is the sidearm to beat...



Mark 23? Too big. If I were relegated to HK, I'd rather have the USP. If you must have threaded barrel, and for SOF its a must, than the USP tactical. You can't go wrong with HK. But you will pay for that quality.


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## Matt308 (Sep 21, 2006)

Soren, the P210 IS a nice gun. However, talk about price is no object! That gem is way over $1000 bucks here in US. Wish I had one! But, 9mm and 8rds on this frame is old technology. As much as I adore Sig Sauer, its based on the French 1935...and I hate giving the French credit for anything positive. Glock 22 is .40 and holds 17+1 with 2rd mag extension. Still my running favorite.


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## MacArther (Sep 21, 2006)

> and I hate giving the French credit for anything positive.


Amen to that!! Anyway, anyone know of the Baby Eagle's ability as a sidearm or just a fire arm in terms of kick, accuracy, etc.? I ask, because most of the people I asked bought a Baby and then a full-sized Desert Eagle, so I think their just a _tiny_ bit biased.


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## Matt308 (Sep 21, 2006)

Never fired one. However, if I recall correctly they are basically a CZ-75 clone (frame rails on the inside instead of the outside like Glock or 1911). As I noted above you can't go wrong with a CZ-75. You can get the Baby Eagle in 9mm, .40 or .45. The .40 is going to have more kick with the 180 grain bullets and the .45 with the 230 grain, but then again both are more powerful than 9mm. All reviews I have read were generally positive. If you don't shoot much, get the 9mm. .45 has some kick, but it is more like a push compared to the snap of the .40. Higher pressures for the .40. What you don't want is a gun that teaches you a bad flinching habit. Once you get one, its hard to teach yourself otherwise. Believe me I know firsthand.


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## Glider (Sep 21, 2006)

I am pretty sure I can speak for all those this side of the pond, who would love to be able to experience these and join the debate.


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## Matt308 (Sep 21, 2006)

Glider. As an NRA member I do sympathize with you. Unfortunately, our time is coming I'm afraid. Too many liberal feminist healthcare for all save the whales tree hugging animal rights before human rights vegan atheists who want to tax the nation into prosperity with equal rights for equal work except for 9 months of maternity leave type folks. However, I'm doing my share to support 2nd amendment rights. You can do your part by rebutting anti-gun comments in the paper, in magazines, and other venues. Perhaps things will turn in the other direction. The pro rights folks don't argue based on emotions and thus we tend to become the silent majority.


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## Soren (Sep 21, 2006)

> Soren, the P210 IS a nice gun. However, talk about price is no object! That gem is way over $1000 bucks here in US. Wish I had one!



Wow, didn't know it was that expensive in the US, and to think both of mine were given to me 



> But, 9mm and 8rds on this frame is old technology. As much as I adore Sig Sauer, its based on the French 1935...and I hate giving the French credit for anything positive.



Besides its safety feature, the fact that it holds only 8 rounds is the only minus you're going to find on that gun - its accuracy is unrivalled, and its high muzzle velocity gives it great penetrative performance and decent stopping power if expanding bullets are used. Consistently hitting a 2" target at 50m, no problem !



> Glock 22 is .40 and holds 17+1 with 2rd mag extension. Still my running favorite.



Sounds attractive but to be honest I never liked the Glock, have shot the Glock 17 myself, but I didn't like it at all. I'd much rather like the CZ-75 in .40 cal or the FN Browning HP then.

Now if you want a really good .40cal pistol I'd recommend the P226, that gun just shoots like a dream !


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## Matt308 (Sep 21, 2006)

I can't argue with you. The P210 is expensive for a reason and thier accuracy is renowned. Never shot one, but have read about them being gems and the manufacturing is exemplary. Some folks don't like the Glock trigger. Does take some getting used to. Almost like a two stage military trigger. I happen to like it. My only complaint is that my hands sweat and so I have added a rubber sleeve for better wet grip. The new Glocks have better texturing and finger grooves.


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## Soren (Sep 21, 2006)

It wasn't the trigger on the glock which bothered me most though, that was infact the grip, my hands didn't like that at all.

About the P210, some time ago I found this beauty on the net:
http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/p210-2-hc-right-full.jpg
http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/p210-2-hc-left.jpg
http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/p210-2-hc-left-full.jpg
http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/p210-2-hc-right.jpg
http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/p210-2-hc-right-flat.jpg

Ofcourse it comes in the std. Black as-well:
http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/p210-2-done-left-full.jpg
http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/p210-2-done-right-full.jpg

It doesn't get much hotter than that !


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## Matt308 (Sep 21, 2006)

Oh good God. I would sell my soul...


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## Soren (Sep 21, 2006)

Now for the true marksman who wants to be able to make headshots at 100y there's also the LS version:
http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/p210-5ls-left-full.jpg
http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/p210-5ls-right-full.jpg
http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/p210-5ls-right-flat.jpg
http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/p210-5ls-left-muzzle.jpg

Crickey ! Thats one hell'uve gun !


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## Matt308 (Sep 21, 2006)

Not a fan of the long barrel, but beautiful nonetheless. Sig should round the frame behind the trigger. What's a little extra CNCing on the golden P210.


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## Soren (Sep 21, 2006)

Yeah I agree, its abit too much. I like the std. P210 better with its already long 120mm barrell. The LS with its 150mm barrel is also intended for target shooting and would be unsuitable as a sidearm for the military.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 22, 2006)

Wow. Not very very experienced in hand guns. The only real experience I have is with 9mm Baretta because it was my primary weapon, but damn those up there look great.


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## Matt308 (Sep 22, 2006)

Too pretty for Special Ops. They would look better in my safe!


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## Torch (Sep 28, 2006)

I have had "Baby"Eagles in both 9mm and .40 cal. Both were very good shooters. Never had a problem with them and were pretty accurate. Only thing I didn't like was that the slide was a little hard to grasp(like CZ-75s). Otherwise they went bang everytime..Didn't know PPKs came in a 9mm,thought only .32 and .380(9mm kurtz)


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## Torch (Sep 29, 2006)

Those pics of the p210 are really nice. The Nills grips are awesome also. Have them on a few of my pistols and the fit and finish of them are excellent..8)


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## Matt308 (Sep 29, 2006)

Torch said:


> I have had "Baby"Eagles in both 9mm and .40 cal. Both were very good shooters. Never had a problem with them and were pretty accurate. Only thing I didn't like was that the slide was a little hard to grasp(like CZ-75s). Otherwise they went bang everytime..Didn't know PPKs came in a 9mm,thought only .32 and .380(9mm kurtz)



I missed that fact Torch. I think your right. No 9X19 that I know of.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 29, 2006)

Gotta get back on track here fellas... Special Operations, Military... Several of my friends are still active duty SEAL Team members, and the weapon they currently use is the Heckler and Koch Mark 23 .40 S&W....

There is no other weapon they would rather use, and trust me, the have the luxury of using WHATEVER they want....


Matt said:


> Mark 23? Too big. If I were relegated to HK, I'd rather have the USP. If you must have threaded barrel, and for SOF its a must, than the USP tactical.


It is infact not too big... The USP tac, while an outstanding weapon, doesnt seem to have the same flow as the slightly larger Mk23... 

And besides, the slightly heavier weight is better when ur knockin some scumbag in the side of the head with it...


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## Matt308 (Sep 29, 2006)

I can't argue with you Les. But Mk23 is like taking a 6" carbine to a rifle fight. FANTASTIC'F'ING weapon. Well made (like all HKs), but overkill hardware when an operator can use something that has better ballistics, same sound signature with attachments, and ammo compatibility with the rest of your stick.

We disagree.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 29, 2006)

And we are allowed to disagree.... Its almost irrelevant cause I never carried a pistol on Ops anyways...


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## Matt308 (Sep 29, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> And we are allowed to disagree.... Its almost irrelevant cause I never carried a pistol on Ops anyways...


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## Matt308 (Sep 29, 2006)

So what's your go to pistol/revolver, Les?

Mine? Glock 22 .40cal.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 30, 2006)

As Im sure ur aware, I was part of the SEAL Community for many years.... I found that I had more firepower and area control with a stumped sawed off Mossberg... Less rounds of course, but I never got into a pistol fight before hehe...

I dont carry a concealed pistol anymore, and I cannot confirm or deny that I own any weapons, but I like the H&K family of weaps very much so...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 1, 2006)

Only pistol/revolver that I own myself is a .38 Special snub nose. The only reason I have it is because my grandfather handed it down to me.

I do own several rifles and shotguns though and several WW2 German Mauser rifles.


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## Matt308 (Oct 2, 2006)

I own a Mossberg 590 (Milspec version with heat shield, parkerized, 8+1 rounds, etc). But not sawed off and not "stumped" or with a pistol grip. Sawed off would be illegal doncha know.

.38 revolver is entirely adequate, if you can hit with it. Use the 158gr bullets and don't load it with the +Ps. They only ruin your night vision and don't go any faster out of a snubbie. I personally find these guns hard to shoot accurately, but they are a proven stopper.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 2, 2006)

I enjoy shooting it at the range and have gotten pretty good at it.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Oct 4, 2006)

I own a Paintball marker and enjoy playing with my friends whenever I get the chance.


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## MacArther (Oct 4, 2006)

> I own a Paintball marker and enjoy playing with my friends whenever I get the chance.



Amen!!!


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## Matt308 (Oct 4, 2006)

In Connecticut that is probably all that you are allowed to own.


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## Torch (Oct 4, 2006)

True Connecticut is as bad as NYC when it comes to owning firearms.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 4, 2006)

Probably not as bad as it is over here in Germany.


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## Matt308 (Oct 5, 2006)

What are the firearms laws in Germany, Adler? In NYC they have a concealed carry law, but only politicians and celebrities are issued a permit. I am under the impression that most west European countries only allow pistols, revolvers and rifles that are not military calibers. And they are subject to severe restrictions on use and storage (e.g., you have to store them at a range and under lock and key). Is Germany in a total ban?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 6, 2006)

Pretty much they only allow hunting rifles and it is very hard to get a permit for it.


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## Torch (Oct 6, 2006)

Don't you need to belong to a hunting club also which in itself is hard to get into?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 7, 2006)

No dont have to be a member of a hunting club but you have to be alteast a member of a shooting club.


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## P38 Pilot (Oct 8, 2006)

I wish they would stop screwing with the firearm laws...


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## Matt308 (Oct 8, 2006)

Always vote P-38. Hopefully you will be able to own guns after the next presidential election. Oh, P-38, don't commit a felony. That automatically disqualifies you.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 8, 2006)

over here you can get a shotgun licence without too many problems, but i believe pistols/hundguns are outright banned, my dad has a number of rifles (perfectly legally) as well as shotguns............


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## Torch (Oct 9, 2006)

Read someplace that in England someone was getting mugged or was trying to get into his house and he shot the bad guys, he was in more trouble afterwards than the low lifes who tried to do him harm...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 9, 2006)

That sucks. He has a right to defend is home and property.


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## Matt308 (Oct 10, 2006)

Torch said:


> Read someplace that in England someone was getting mugged or was trying to get into his house and he shot the bad guys, he was in more trouble afterwards than the low lifes who tried to do him harm...



I read that too Torch. Apparently this poor SOB had been robbed numerous times and took the situation into his own hands. Don't know the specifics, but at some point in time I think that a man has the right to protect not only his life and others, but also his castle and its belongings. I hope the law does not make his life miserable for such a noble deed.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 10, 2006)

He was called Tony Martin and it was a *MASSIVE* story over here- most were on his side but the law was not, most of the contraversy coming from the fact he fired multiple shots, what annoyed me more than anything else about this though was watching an interview with one of the surviving robbers- apparently the scumbag that was rightfully shot dead was "the nicest guy you could ever meet he would never hurt anyone, he had a bright future ahead of him but his life was brutally cut short" i remember those words exactily because of the simple fact that this little angel was robbing this guys bloody house! it's not like he had to do it to feed his family either (if i remember correctly his mum was on the doll, but that wont supprise anyone), he deserved to get shot!

Farmer who killed burglar jailed for life


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## Matt308 (Oct 10, 2006)

Christ, he's jailed for life. I so loath liberalism.


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## P38 Pilot (Oct 10, 2006)

Poor guy had *every* right to defend himself.


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## P38 Pilot (Oct 10, 2006)

Matt308 said:


> Always vote P-38. Hopefully you will be able to own guns after the next presidential election. Oh, P-38, don't commit a felony. That automatically disqualifies you.



You dont have to worry about me commiting a felony.8)


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## mkloby (Oct 10, 2006)

In NJ - one of the liberal pinnacles of the nation and sadly where I'm from - you are expected to use lethal forces only as a last resort. Therefore, if you can run away, then you had other options, and would likely be prosecuted. Down here in Florida, you have the right to defend your home, property, and family. If someone is breaking into your house, say not even in your house yet, you can fire through a window and end that turds life. Couple instances of this here in pensacola recently. Sherrif said no foul. God I love the politics down here when it comes to gun control.


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## Matt308 (Oct 11, 2006)

I read about that too. ACLU will get involved eventually and your state will pay big bucks for its citizens rights. Good for Florida.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Oct 12, 2006)

Matt308 said:


> In Connecticut that is probably all that you are allowed to own.



yep, pretty much.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 12, 2006)

over allowed to use "reasonable force" to detain or stop someone commiting a crime, the problem is just how much force is "reasonable" force? i know where the guns are kept in the house and i know how to get at them, i like to think that in the event of a robber in the house i'd have the presence of mind to get one and fire a warning shot or two out of a window or something like that, if he still doesn't go perhaps shoot him in the leg? of course if were actually were robbed it's unlikely i'd do anything even close to that


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## Matt308 (Oct 12, 2006)

If you have the presence of mind and superior eye hand coordination to shoot someone in the leg under great stress, you are a man among men.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 13, 2006)

well it's going to be very short range and i'll be using a shotgun so i'd be more supprised if i missed............


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## mkloby (Oct 13, 2006)

Never fire any warning shots. Shoot to kill, my friend.


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## lesofprimus (Oct 13, 2006)

Warning shots are for dispersing unruley crowds and thats it.... As loby said, shoot to kill...


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## Matt308 (Oct 30, 2006)

the lancaster kicks *** said:


> well it's going to be very short range and i'll be using a shotgun so i'd be more supprised if i missed............



Have you ever patterned your shotgun at short range? "Can't miss with a shotgun" is a myth. Assuming you have a cylinder-bore choke on your shotgun, at 20ft it will likely shoot into a pattern the size of your fist.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 30, 2006)

i'm a farmer's son, i know how to use a shotgun  i've done plenty of shooting with one and i find it an absolute joy to fire, very simple to aim, care to test your theory against me?


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## Matt308 (Oct 30, 2006)

Nope. As an avid shooter and owner of multiple shotguns, unless you have sawed it off there is not much spread at short ranges.

However, if you are asking for a volunteer target...


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 30, 2006)

Yes. Ill come in through your window and execute you with a silenced pistol first.


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## Matt308 (Oct 30, 2006)

That's not nice, now is it.


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## Gnomey (Oct 30, 2006)

Since when was burglery nice...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 31, 2006)

Matt308 said:


> Nope. As an avid shooter and owner of multiple shotguns, unless you have sawed it off there is not much spread at short ranges.
> 
> However, if you are asking for a volunteer target...



i know there's not much spread i do know about choke  all i'm saying is that i'd still have no problem hitting you  so go on then, would you be willing to try and prove yourself right by being the target?


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## Matt308 (Oct 31, 2006)

As I said, if your asking for a target...

I'd rather not test my facts with anyone thankyou very much.


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