# Kozhedub's image...



## Shadar_Logoth (Jun 1, 2005)

http://img224.echo.cx/img224/4439/kozhedubguncamera5kx.jpg

Some people says that this image is taken from the Kozhedub's gun camera and shows how he shoot down 2 P51's by mistake.

But I have some questions about this image:

- Why Kozhedub uses a "Zeiss" gun camera?. VVS used American guncams, not Zeiss
- Why is acepted that is Kozhedub?, may be could be a german plane (Zeiss camera)?. 

Regards


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## lesofprimus (Jun 1, 2005)

U would have to ask the historians who labeled those guncam shots as being his.....

Those pics have been connected to Kozhedub for many many years, so I would assume that they have been verified....... By who???? Im sure no one here knows that answer......

However, there may be some guys here who could answer ur question regarding the Zeiss camera....... Why is it that only 1 set of pics has the zeiss stamp??? Was this Zeiss film or the camera????


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 1, 2005)

I think it is the same film that has just been chopped up on the computer to make it easier to view...


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## Soren (Jun 1, 2005)

Most likely it wasn't Kozhedub's gun-cam footage at all, but just shots from a German fighter downing a P-51. The soviets many times made these kind mistakes when trying to present evidence.

In reality Kozhedub's score was most likely not even half of what its claimed to be.


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 1, 2005)

Whereas Pokryshkins was probably more than he got...


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## Soren (Jun 1, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> Whereas Pokryshkins was probably more than he got...



Some "Russian" historians believe his score to be atleast 62 kills, but not according to LW loss records.

He most likely shot down less than his claims.


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## Erich (Jun 1, 2005)

interesting ! the German fighter has caught the P-51 with his underwing drop tanks still attached. No Soviet fighter had a Zeiss camera installed....


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## lesofprimus (Jun 1, 2005)

I think the whole "Russian Propaganda" thing concerning the top Aces is a bunch of crap.... Kozhedub has stated that his kills were all legitimate, and that it should be even higher, due to shared kills, but a shared kill was usually given to junior pilots... 

I have no reason whatsoever to think that a future Marshall of the Russian Airforce should lie about something as important as this, and continue lying about it till his death....... Sorta like a slap in the face of one the the Earths Greatest Fighter Pilots........

There was more problems with "Russian Propoganda" concerning young new pilots, and German losses as a whole....... Ive read the same russian crap u have, and many here have..... Making up battles and whatnot to pump the Motherland up...

Fact is, there were a few really great Russian pilots in WWII......

But.......

It was a very very small percentage... Most Russian pilots never got the chance to fly 2 missions.... Hartmann was sneaking around, hiding in the sun, ambushing all these freckle-faced kids on the first check ride after Aeronautics training class.....

Oh, and for the record, MOST American and Allied historians believe his score was 62.......

Ive seen some of the "Russian" Historians comments and totals u are referring to, and find some of it to be a joke, one or 2 that actually made me LOL....... One guy had like 6 other Aces before Kozhedub....... Another had Kozhedub with 80+ kills......

The Russian Propaganda machine served it purpose back then... But pumping up the kill totals of her best aces would have been just plain stupid... Its not like they throw Hero Medals around...

Kozhedub was a proud man and has even stated publicly that he was extremely strict when it came to his comrades (and his own) confirmed victories...

Problem is, no one is positively sure how many kills there were for any country, or any pilot..... Through careful research u can narrow it down to a few questionable ones, but getting it 100% correct is a dream....

Boyington said he shot down 2 Zeros in his last combat...... No witnesses...... 

Is HE lying????


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## Shadar_Logoth (Jun 1, 2005)

Soren said:


> cheddar cheese said:
> 
> 
> > Whereas Pokryshkins was probably more than he got...
> ...



Probably, like every pilot in WW2, included Hartmann


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## Erich (Jun 1, 2005)

your generality proves my earlier point on the locked Hartmann thread

do some serious research before you spout off.

I know too many Luftwaffe veterans both day and night fighter that the flugbuch proves exactly with the confirmation documents: what a/c, times and location of the downing...........


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## delcyros (Jun 2, 2005)

There are problems with the material:
1st) The pictures doesn´t fit to Khozedubs statements of the aerial dogfight:
He states that the Mustangs accidently attacked him and as we all see, both Mustangs have their wingtanks not jettisioned yet. This makes bouncing either another (german?) plane bouncing them or Khozedub did not was in a defensive position more probable than pursuing Mustangs, which try to drive off an attacker from the bombers (with Mustang tanks on, Khozedub would find it easy to escape if needed)
2nd) The soviet had acces to german guncam footages by capturing Berlin and other places, esspeccially the Luftbildhaupstelle Berlin in april 1945
3rd) Not only the film is Zeiss but also is the camera. Compare these guncam pictures with the soviet guncam pictures of the Korean war, what a difference! The contrast differences might be declared by Zeiss film but depth sharpness also? Very unprobable.
4th) it was, as far as I know, never prooved (unlike the Korean footages) that this film exactly belongs to Khozedub.


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## Soren (Jun 3, 2005)

Shadar_Logoth said:


> Soren said:
> 
> 
> > cheddar cheese said:
> ...



 

Oh go read a book or something, and spear us these cheap comments ! 

Hartmanns score is light-years more accurate than any Russian ace's score. 

In the Soviet air force, if you didn't kill the fascist's a/c in the air, you were considered useless by communist party and one could end up in a prison or get shot. So the squadron commanders would highly exaggerate their squadron's kills. And that they relied on Partizan's for kill confirmation, didn't help either.


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## Chocks away! (Jun 4, 2005)

I don't see why he had to shoot down the two mustangs. Couldn't he dive away from them? Or speed up and leave? Doesn't an ace know how to avoid combat as well as achieve a kill? Do you think some capitalist hatred was involved? Yet in those days the ''Uncle Joe'' thing was in fashion...


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 4, 2005)

Yes - I agree. Its one thing to claim the 62 victories, but to say he HAD to shoot down the 2 mustangs is just commie propaganda. In my opinion, if you're believing that, you probably believe everything in the Communist Manifesto!


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## delcyros (Jun 4, 2005)

I am more and more convinced that the footage is suspect. Zeiss industries was responsible for numerous optical devices, but not for films. This in most cases was task for the chemicle industies (IG Farben for example) beside of different smaller private companys.


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## Chocks away! (Jun 4, 2005)

This thing is pretty fishy-i wish i had material to research the mustang shoot downs further...


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## Shadar_Logoth (Jun 7, 2005)

Soren said:


> Shadar_Logoth said:
> 
> 
> > Soren said:
> ...



I know that this is a religious fact, but its impressive that the most important ace of the WW2 hs not any docummented kill, there is not guncams, not serial numbers... nothing. The only things you can see about the Hartmann victorys are:
- 150 from Personal Hartman's journal
- 187 from Letters to his wife
- 15 from the JG52 journals (there is another journal that was lost but nobody saws it).

You can read about that from the official Hartman biographers; Raymond F. Toliver and Trevor J. Constable in the book "The Blond Knight of Germany". They took years trying to find evidences, but they did not find it. Strange.

and if you read this, may be find that Hartmann was a individualist guy 
http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/hartmann.htm

Now, look at this:

"Perhaps the last words should be left to Kozhedub himself, who provides the following revealing recollections: "I destroyed my first enemy aircraft in the air during the Battle of Kursk. Historians have been setting forth my total score as 62 victories. As a matter of fact this figure requires revision. There were many victories that either remained unconfirmed or were credited to fellow pilots. I reckon that my personal score actually is in excess of 100 victories while I never counted enemy aircraft destroyed jointly with my comrades." "

http://users.senet.com.au/~wingman/kozhedub.html "

Kozhedub claimed more than 100, but VVs only confirmed 62, whats's the Hartman's method to confirm a kill? Letter to his wife?. Where is all that docummented kills from Luftwaffe?, where is the files?.

In religion, people believe or not, I only believe in things I can see.

Regards


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## trackend (Jun 7, 2005)

It all sounds very iffy to me having tried it myself now and getting an accurate figure is very nigh impossible. verifying claims with real accuracy is a field that is beyond my limited Knowledge I can get figures from this to this but saying it was defiantly 50 or what ever seems to throw up too many variables and all I end up with is approximate numbers.
Claims leave room for error especially in the heat of a battle reports of lost aircraft do not it appears to me indicate that a certain pilot was responsible for its destruction.
I would be very interested how these figures are arrived at with such accuracy. Please enlighten me guys cheers.


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## evangilder (Jun 7, 2005)

Well, let's see, historians generally agree that Kozhedub's tally was 62. They also generally agree of Hartmann's tally. My question is why is there quibbling about one versus the other? I have not doubt that both men were skilled in their craft and good fighter pilots. But the final comment "In religion, people believe or not, I only believe in things I can see. " is contradictory. Did you SEE those kills with your own eyes?


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## trackend (Jun 7, 2005)

2 very valid points Evan thanks.
I didnt see WW2 but I believe it happened


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## BombTaxi (Jun 7, 2005)

Its impossible to say that Kozhedub scored less kills than he claimed just by looking at LW loss records. Have you considered that some of his kills may have been Hungarian/Bulgarian/Slovakian? They were flying 109s...some of his 'German' 109 kills could have been scored against co-belligerent Axis airforces.

And furthermore, speaking as a soon-to-be History graduate going on to a Historical Reasearch MA, I would say confidently that there is is no such thing as a 100% reliable historical source. While the German armed forces are rightly noted for the accuracy of thier records, they are not perfect. The Germans sometimes didnt know exactly what was going on at the time, never mind after the event. While this was especially common in the confused later stages of the war, it happened from day 1. For an example, look at Guderians memoir _Panzer Leader_. Guderian admits that at times during the fighting in the Low Countries, he didnt know where his formations were or how they were doing, due to the speed and confusion of the advance. WEhile official war diaries are probably the _most_ accurate records we posess, we cannot take them as gospel, because such accuracy is simply impossible.


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## evangilder (Jun 7, 2005)

Well stated, BT. That was my question, how could one be labelled very reliabel and the other not? I think there has to be some give and take for every record in that regard.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 7, 2005)

I think what we're seeing here is a bit of "Hartmann bashing" and the poor guy isn't alive to defend his record, which always makes it easy for detractors of one's achievments. As BT pointed out there is is no such thing as a 100% reliable historical source, but I think there has been so much discussion, witnesses and record to verify Hartmann's score that the whole bloody discussion should be put to rest. I think if there was any doubt to Hartmann's achievements his record would of been challenged at the end of the war, that never happened.

Why not go after Gerhard Barkhorn, or Gunter Rall, they both scored over 3x what Kozhedub did, or are they next on the "Hit List?!?!?"


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## Soren (Jun 7, 2005)

> I know that this is a religious fact, but its impressive that the most important ace of the WW2 hs not any docummented kill, there is not guncams, not serial numbers... nothing. The only things you can see about the Hartmann victorys are:
> - 150 from Personal Hartman's journal
> - 187 from Letters to his wife
> - 15 from the JG52 journals (there is another journal that was lost but nobody saws it).



His bloody wingmen saw it, aswell as his squadron commander(s) ! If his score in any way was as questionable as you propose, his score would never be mentioned as 352 ! 



> You can read about that from the official Hartman biographers; Raymond F. Toliver and Trevor J. Constable in the book "The Blond Knight of Germany". They took years trying to find evidences, but they did not find it. Strange.



Strange ??!!!   His Wingmen are all liars in your eyes maybe ? 

Hartmanns kills are all confirmed Shadar !



> and if you read this, may be find that Hartmann was a individualist guy
> http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/hartmann.htm



Really, and how is that ? What in there makes him a possible liar ?



> Now, look at this:
> 
> "Perhaps the last words should be left to Kozhedub himself, who provides the following revealing recollections: "I destroyed my first enemy aircraft in the air during the Battle of Kursk. Historians have been setting forth my total score as 62 victories. As a matter of fact this figure requires revision. There were many victories that either remained unconfirmed or were credited to fellow pilots. I reckon that my personal score actually is in excess of 100 victories while I never counted enemy aircraft destroyed jointly with my comrades." "



Oh sure, we should believe in Kozhedub himself, but not Hartmann..  

If any of those two is a liar, then its Kozhedub ! 



> Kozhedub claimed more than 100, but VVs only confirmed 62,



Source ?



> Where is all that docummented kills from Luftwaffe?, where is the files?.



Where do you think it is ??! Most likely locked up in some Russian archive not to be seen ! Or burned during the last hours of the war, who knows ! 

Where is Kozhedub's documents ?

Fact is Hartmann's kills were all confirmed, or else he wouldnt have been able to paint his tally on his a/c, simple as that. And if he in any way tried to exaggerate his score, he would have been given very short shrift by his peers ! 

There's a reason Hartman's score is accepted as 352, and no less !



> In religion, people believe or not, I only believe in things I can see.



Well obviously then, you are blind !


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