# US subs in the arctic



## syscom3 (Dec 19, 2005)

Saw this on Drudge report this morning.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=fb21432a-1d28-415e-b323-ceb22d477732&k=69493

Since this is the cold country, is this considered another "cold war" incident?


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 19, 2005)

Well like I've always said, if we're going to lay claim to all of that land (or ice  ), we'd best be able to patrol it properly ourselves. Y'think four diesel-electric subs are gonna conduct sovereignty patrols of the Arctic? Ha! 

Besides, if they think this is the first time for such an occurrence, they're kidding themselves. It happens a lot more often than they think, and it isn't only the Americans. Wake up, Ottawa!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 19, 2005)

I am sure the US Navy does that quite a bit, with no one really being able to stop them.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 19, 2005)

Sure they do, along with the British, French, and even the Russians still do it. Hell, it's wide open up there. It's not like Canada really keeps any kind of military presence up there aside from a few Eskimo with hunting rifles.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 19, 2005)

I saw an intersting documentary on the rangers that patrol up there. Most of them seemed to be eskimos or enuits I think you call them.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 19, 2005)

They call themselves Inuit. It's pronounced IN-oo-it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 21, 2005)

Ah thank you.


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## plan_D (Dec 22, 2005)

That's a joke. I'm glad to see it's been brought out in the open. So, what is Canada going to do? I assume it's going to be nothing. Where exactly is all Canada's money going anyway? 

I don't see any reports on Canada's lifestyle being far and above any other Western nation - so the money obviously isn't going into the country or people, so where is it going? 

If Canada really can't protect it's sea lanes, why does it just use Britain or, ideally, the U.S to do it for them? I know, it may sound bad having to rely on another country for your own protection but it's an alliance. France and Britain had always maintained that France would do the bulk of the ground work while Britain supplied the naval work in any European conflict. In the 1930s it was updated to an equal share in air work and France taking over some of the naval work on the African coast.


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## pbfoot (Dec 22, 2005)

where Canada's money goes is in the infrastructure we are a very large land mass with a small population for the area and to keep roads airports and the such going year round is pretty costly its probably hard for most people including most Canadians to conceive the distances involved in Europe you guys can throw rocks at the next town where here 50 miles between towns is not rare one place I'm familiar with was 429 miles to the next town but even most Canadians are unaware of this because such a high proportion of us live within 100 miles of our southern friends this coupled with the fact the previous management of the place the UK was very eager to sign very lucrative treaties with the natives that run in perpetuity no taxes free houses you name it they have it


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 22, 2005)

I don't know about Ontario PB, but in Nova Scotia the provincial Department of Transportation is still responsible for the bulk of the road maintenance. Most of he money comes directly from provincial coffers, with little federal assistance. That's why Nova Scotia's highways are in such relatively rough condition. The feds even expect the provinces to shoulder half of the spending on the 104 federal highway. Granted, Ontario has a lot more highway than Nova Scotia. 

Ottawa has cut federal assistance waaaaay back over the last decade and a bit, and has placed much more responsibility on the provinces. Not only with infrastructure but with health care as well. That's why poorer provinces like Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, PEI, and New Brunswick now rely heavily on equalization payments from the wealthier provinces like Alberta, BC, and Ontario. It's not the least bit fair to those provinces to have to shell over their own provincial revenues to a program designed to keep the Atlantic Region on it's feet, but that's what we're left with for the time being.

Much federal money gets spent on ridiculous corporate initiatives that go nowhere, national unity strategies designed to keep Québec in the country (that again appear to be going nowhere. Sponsorship anyone?), and foreign aid packages. To be realistic though, it's been that way for decades, long before Mr. Chrétien took the reigns of government in the 90's. There is no reason in the world why Canada can't afford a decent military capable of defending our frontiers _and_ fulfilling our international obligations. No reason whatsoever.


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## 102first_hussars (Dec 22, 2005)

> I don't know about Ontario PB, but in Nova Scotia the provincial Department of Transportation is still responsible for the bulk of the road maintenance. Most of he money comes directly from provincial coffers, with little federal assistance. That's why Nova Scotia's highways are in such relatively rough condition. The feds even expect the provinces to shoulder half of the spending on the 104 federal highway. Granted, Ontario has a lot more highway than Nova Scotia.



What you guys need are Toll-booths, people in this country think they are soo Communist but if you have been on the Highways in North Dakota they couldnt be more perfect.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 22, 2005)

We do have one toll highway here, but only one. Boy, you shoulda heard the bitching and complaining when that opened up.


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## 102first_hussars (Dec 22, 2005)

I beleive it, god forbid everyone should chip in fifty cents for a highway that wont kill soo many people.

I have finally found something to Envy of North Dakota.


A PLACE THAT IS RENOWNED, REVERED, AND IS THE ENVY OF THE WORLD FOR ITS TECHNOLOGICALY SUPERIOR HIGHWAY SYSTEMS

IITTSS! NOOORRRTH DAKOTAAAAA!!!


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 22, 2005)

I think most of the states have toll highways. The interstate highways, anyway. It shows too, because they appear to be really well kept.


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## 102first_hussars (Dec 22, 2005)

Most of the Western States the Border with Canada have nice highways, but if you were to go through Michigan Wisconson or Illinois there just as bad as ours and they drive like the crazy bastards in Ontario too.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 22, 2005)

I've never driven through the Mid-West, but the New England states have pretty good interstates as well. Yeah, I've been through parts of Washington and Oregon too. It's nice.


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## pbfoot (Dec 22, 2005)

I was actually using highways as examples think of all the airports we have to pay for up in the arctic or nwt and such the court systems that have to travel to every little town, electicity that has to be generated because its to far away from the grid it all adds up yes the military needs much more funding but who do we rob to pay for it . Myself I'd like to see civil servants take a pay cut make the natives work for their money cut the wages of educators the list can go on


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 22, 2005)

Who do we rob to pay for it? We shouldn't have to rob _anyone_, that's my point. How much money goes into useless projects like these federal sponsorship deals everyday? That recent sponsorship scandal was a perfect example of why government needs to be accountable for mass spending like that. Jesus, do you know how long they've been doing that sort of thing on the Hill? Years man, years. We the public are just now waking up to the actual scope of it. For example, the government throws out an open cheque to some survey company to launch a study into something completely stupid, and then never bothers to do an audit of any sort when a multimillion dollar bill arrives and there are no results to show for it. Does that makes sense to anyone? That kind of squandering goes on left and right, you know that.

But that's just a single example of the type of waste that occurs in Ottawa on a regular basis. What about this so-called "National Unity"? 
Then there's foreign aid. I mean, the list just goes on and on! We could probably stand to re-evaluate our priorities just a bit. Christ, look at the state of health care in this country these days. Your list of suggestions ain't bad either, concerning civil servants and such.

Canada isn't a poor country by any means, you know. We're actually one of the wealthier ones. We're in the G8 for Christ's sake, but we waste so much f*cking money! I'm not talking about a massive military like the United States now. We obviously lack the population or the industrial base for something that size. We'd never support something like that in a million years, but we can sure as hell have something _significantly_ better than what we've been left with. I mean a _lot_ better. Christ, we can't even defend our own country! Why we're even still in NATO or sending folks to places like Afghanistan is anyones guess! This is absolute garbage, that's what _this_ is, and there's no need of it whatsof*ckingever. None.


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## pbfoot (Dec 22, 2005)

okay rob is a poor term but has our govt got the balls to say the hell with day care if you can't afford kids wear condoms or you want to work in Canada you pay for your own English or French lessons .your from down east how long did we keep those coal mines going in cape breton or how much money was spent to change the name of afrikaville to simonstown(i hope thats the correct name) why should I support through pogey some fisherman who can only fish for a couple of months a year and its not only in the maritimes its all over the place . Now I'm gonna have to pay for Halifax to host commonwealth games its all crap yes we do need to upgrade the forces and stop sending frigates on fish pats but which politician has the guts to do it or say so if one does he isn't gonna get elected because the majority of Canadians are snivellers


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 22, 2005)

Those are all perfect examples of the waste right there. A lot of what you've just listed rests at the provincial level though, and brother I'll be the first to agree that the governments out east (particularly Nova Scotia) have been the sh*ts at managing the affairs down here. Everything is just one big f*cked up circle after another, and then we go running to the federal government and the next thing you know you've got Ontario supporting Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. 

To be fair though, a big part of the economy down here was dependent on the fishery. Once that went tits up, we were really in a world of hurt. Sysco Steel in Cape Breton should have been shut down long before it was though,I'll agree, and the coal mines have been spent for years now. Why should Ontario pay for it, or Alberta or BC? Well, I can't really give you a good reason.


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## pbfoot (Dec 22, 2005)

I'm not disputing helping out my countrymen in times of distress like the east coast did with western canada during the 1930's the fact being who do we "deprive" to do what is correct like upgrading the CAF no politcian is willing to risk losing his ride on the gravy train to do what is correct in our minds. The last true leaders we had in canada were Mulroney and although he was bad for the CAF Trudeau but we are like every other person in this world we cannot stand the truth nor are we willing to pay for it . Are you aware in 1867 Nova Scotia and New Brunswick almost did not join in confederation because at thet time they were the haves and we out west of you were the havenots


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 22, 2005)

pbfoot said:


> Are you aware in 1867 Nova Scotia and New Brunswick almost did not join in confederation because at thet time they were the haves and we out west of you were the havenots


Oh, I'm most certainly aware of that. 
Believe you me, practically _everybody_ in Nova Scotia is aware of that! 

But those were different times, with an entirely different economy and resource base. Plus hardly any of the western territory had really been opened up yet.
Fat lot of good it all does us these days. Ah well.


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## 102first_hussars (Dec 22, 2005)

> One of the last true leaders we had in canada was Mulroney and Trudeau.




I do agree with you on Brian, The media went all out to demonize him, in the end it paid off for the Liberals, however in my opinion Trudeau sabatoged any chance of of Mulroney making true progress for Canada, When Trudeau first entered office after Pearson there was a 
50 Million Dollar Surplus in the National Budget, but when Trudeau Retired from office he left Mulroneys new leadership and Canada for that matter with a 4 billion dollar deficit and hundreds of Billions in Debt which still has yet to be paid off. Canada itself is not in anyway poor but not rich either, were just getting by, but we could easily be out of that deficit if whats his baldness from U2 wouldnt corrupt our government by guilt tripping Pauly into shelling out more and more money for this UN bullshit, certain social programs could be cut, former Primeministers dont need million dollar pension funds. 
We easily could be in a surplus.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 22, 2005)

I'm staying the hell out of this one. I feel like taking a break from the politcal debates for now.


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## 102first_hussars (Dec 22, 2005)

What you dont like it when people compliment Mulroney?  

Well I got news for ya I luv'em, GST too


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 22, 2005)

102first_hussars said:


> What you dont like it when people compliment Mulroney?


That's not what I mean. I'm just getting sick of discussing politics. Maybe tomorrow.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 23, 2005)

Check this out. Harper plans to bring in a new sound system and three armed icebreakers. 
Talk about half-assed. Sad thing is though, it's still more than what we have already, and even if the Tories won I'd be surprised if he kept his word about it.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canadavotes2006/national/2005/12/22/elxn-harper-dfens.html


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## 102first_hussars (Dec 23, 2005)

Actually thats a very realistic promise, remember NS, we cant completely rebuild the military in one sitting, like you said too much damage has been caused.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 23, 2005)

It's entirely realistic, I agree, but these are politicians after all. I'd like to think that it would simply be the beginning of a much needed expansion of the Navy, but I seriously doubt that. If we actually see it I'll be pleasantly surprised, don't get me wrong, but you know how it is here.

I don't know if you'd remember or not, but in the mid to late eighties under Mulroney we were supposed to be getting a dozen nuclear attack subs, and a base was to be established somewhere in Hudson Bay. Can you imagine now? Canada with nuclear attack subs. In a pig's eye. 



(God I'm using the ol' rolly eyed smilie a lot again.)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 26, 2005)

102first_hussars said:


> I beleive it, god forbid everyone should chip in fifty cents for a highway that wont kill soo many people.
> 
> I have finally found something to Envy of North Dakota.
> 
> ...



Over here in Germany we do not have toll booths and the Autobahns are kept up very nicely. I have not driven over a rough spot ever. Areas that get bad, get fixed promtly. If a government spends its money wisely it does not need to do extra taxes.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 27, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> If a government spends its money wisely it does not need to do extra taxes.


Precisley. Wise words indeed. Hence the main reason why Canadians are practically taxed to death as it is, particularly in the Atlantic Region.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 28, 2005)

That is what is going to happen here in Germany as well. She is going to raise the taxes to point of ignorance.


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## MUGZ (Dec 14, 2006)

Hey Guys, 

I was just reading through the forum a bit (I accidentally stumbled across it while looking for answers to some of my review questions for my exam on Friday) and it is pretty evident that you like to discuss and debate history topics. I'm having trouble finding a few answers so, if your interested, you can help me out with them, it'd be greatly appreciated. The questions are as follow:
1)Discuss the changing attitudes of the Loyalists/refugees in Atlantic Canada regarding the United States in the period 1783-1800
2)Discuss the causes of poverty in Atlantic Canada in the 19th century and society's response
3)How did tenants attempt to deal with the "land question" in P.E.I in the period of 1920-1867
4) Why did the Beothuk of NFLD dissapear
5)What were the most important factors that prompted Nova Scotia and New Brunswick to join the confederation in 1867

Any information on these topics would assist me greatly and would be appreciated! Thanks


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## Husky (Dec 18, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Saw this on Drudge report this morning.
> 
> U.S. sub may have toured Canadian Arctic zone
> 
> Since this is the cold country, is this considered another "cold war" incident?



I think President Reagan caused abit of a 'cold freeze' with our frinds to the north when he sent icebreakers through the Northwest Passage in the 80's...enforcing Freedom of the Sea's act or something.


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