# Geneva Convention?



## renrich (Feb 21, 2010)

Understand that the 5.45 bullet used in the Russian assault rifle "tumbles" inside the body causing a bigger wound channel and more internal damage. Also understand that the 5.56 US bullet does the same. I believe that the Geneva Convention Accords outlawed "dum-dum" bullets or other soft nosed expansion bullets, although it might be some other international agreement. It seems to me that a bullet which is designed to "tumble" inside the human body, even if it is a FMJ bullet violates the spirit of those agreements. Anyone have any info on that subject?


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## Butters (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm familiar with that, and IIRC, the Swedes increased the twist in the rifling of their 5.56 barrels to prevent bullet tumble. 

There has also been controversy in regards to using shotguns in combat, but as with the bullets designed to tumble, none of the controversy has had any tangible effect on the either the manufactures or users of those weapons.

"War is cruelty...", and all that....

JL


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## J_P_C (Feb 21, 2010)

US never ratified Geneva Convention - this is reason why can not be prosecuted for multiple violation of GC rules


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## ToughOmbre (Feb 21, 2010)

J_P_C said:


> US never ratified Geneva Convention - this is reason why can not be prosecuted for multiple violation of GC rules



I'm not an expert on the GC but.....

I think that US has ratified all the Geneva Conventions with the exception of the two protocols of 1977, that further protect civilians during wartime and address armed conflicts within a nation.

TO


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 21, 2010)

J_P_C said:


> US never ratified Geneva Convention - this is reason why can not be prosecuted for multiple violation of GC rules



1. You are wrong, with the exception of two protocols, which have been signed with the intention to ratify.

2. What does the United States have to do with this particular thread? Stay on topic.


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## renrich (Feb 22, 2010)

What I am trying to find out is what agreement prevents nations from using dum-dum or similar bullets and whether there has been any controversy about the fact that these "tumbling" bullets might mimic a dum-dum or a hollow point bullet. OK, looked it up and the Hague Convention outlawed Dum-Dum bullets in 1899 which I suppose that caused everyone to go to the FMJ bullets.


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## J_P_C (Jul 10, 2019)

Gry to 


DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> 1. You are wrong, with the exception of two protocols, which have been signed with the intention to ratify.
> 
> 2. What does the United States have to do with this particular thread? Stay on topic.[/QUOTE
> Please explain to me how US is dealing with use shotguns by its armed forces, CS gas, depleted Uranium ammunition etc. I'm hot pacifist but i think it is worth to realize that when hostility begun lawfull-unlawfull border become fluent, noone is realny saint and always most hurted side are innocents...


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## swampyankee (Jul 10, 2019)

J_P_C said:


> US never ratified Geneva Convention - this is reason why can not be prosecuted for multiple violation of GC rules


The other reason is that the US is the proverbial 800 lb gorilla; getting any violators to trial would be impossible.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 10, 2019)

GRY to?


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## mikewint (Jul 10, 2019)

Let's define what you mean by "tumble". The 5.56 bullet does NOT tumble in flight. If it did you would not be able to hit any thing and bullets would simply zip around every which way. Now the pointy shape of a bullet is unstable. The heavy base end wants to switch places with the lighter pointy end. To stabilize the bullet in flight the rifle barrel has twists inside to cause the bullet to spin. The first AR15s had a 1 in 14 twist rate this rate of twist worked in temperate climates but was insufficient for cold weather. In the cold dense air the bullet did tumble in flight. Thus it was changed to 1 in 12 for all weather operation. The M16A2 further increased the twist rate to 1 in 7 for 62gr M856 tracer bullets with light pyrotechnic compound making them longer than all metal M855 62gr FMJ, with M855 already longer than 55gr M193. Keep that in mind: spin and density - insufficient spin in greater density causes the bullet to yaw as the heavier base tries to switch places with the lighter pointy end.

Thus rifle bullets tumble after entering flesh because they are not spinning fast enough to remain stable in matter denser than air. With an aft center of gravity from a base wider than their tip, their inherently stable traveling orientation is base first, which they rotate into when they have insufficient spin. Therefore *all* FMJ rifle bullets will exhibit some degree of yaw when they transit media. A case in point would be the "magic bullet" that killed Kennedy. This slow-moving round-nosed 6.5mm bullet exited his body and struck Governor Connoly (who was riding on the jump seat in front of Kennedy.)
The hole in Connoly's jacket is clearly a keyhole -- indicating about 90 degrees of yaw.

Now add to that the construction of the bullet. M16 bullets had thin jackets with heavy cannelures, so when they began to yaw on impact, they would *sometimes* break apart at the cannelure. Depending on conditions and location of the hit, this might result in a spray of jacket and core metal through the heart-lung area, or might simply be a gory wound in muscle tissue.

Any projectile that is traveling approximately 2500 fps or faster can cause hydrostatic shock when it hits soft, moist tissue because the water inside the tissue is non-compressible, and as the shock wave travels through tissue it bursts the cells, causing massive wound channels. 

The Soviet 5.45 X 39 uses a bullet with an empty nose and a flat-pointed core (supposedly intended as a penetrator for armor). On impact, the core comes forward in the jacket, filling the nose, and causing the bullet to yaw rapidly -- producing some really sickening wounds in any tissue.


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