# Hurricabe research help needed!



## Donald Johnson (May 10, 2021)

I'm working with Barry Marshall on a book about his father, Hawker Hurricane ace Ernest Marshall, who is credited with 86 enemy planes shot down, (six during the Battle of Britain), sared, probable, or destroyed on the ground. Over North Africa, he flamed for Italian bombers in one engagement, a fifth gone missing from Italian logbooks.

Barry claims to have the only RAF logbook in existence, the rest having been purged by the Air Ministry inexplicably in 1959.

Contact me if you have knowledge of any primary source material directly connected with Ernest Marshall.


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## buffnut453 (May 10, 2021)

Have you downloaded the Operations Record Books for the squadrons he served in? Download is currently free from the UK National Archives. Those original records, particularly the operational appendices, may have some of the details you're seeking.


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## Donald Johnson (May 10, 2021)

buffnut453 said:


> Have you downloaded the Operations Record Books for the squadrons he served in? Download is currently free from





buffnut453 said:


> Have you downloaded the Operations Record Books for the squadrons he served in? Download is currently free from the UK National Archives. Those original records, particularly the operational appendices, may have some of the details you're seeking.


I'm sure Barry has all of that. He was friends with Trenchard, the RAF founder. What I'm looking for likely doesn't exist: cross-verification and accounts of other pilots. How is it that a pilot this proficient barely gets a mention in air history books? He was also credited with downing several Me. 109s with the Hurricane.


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## buffnut453 (May 10, 2021)

Donald Johnson said:


> I'm sure Barry has all of that. He was friends with Trenchard, the RAF founder. What I'm looking for likely doesn't exist: cross-verification and accounts of other pilots. How is it that a pilot this proficient barely gets a mention in air history books? He was also credited with downing several Me. 109s with the Hurricane.



Note that the RAF didn't grant credit for aircraft destroyed on the ground, hence the total of 86 will raise a lot of eyebrows. Pat Pattle is generally acknowledged to be one of the top-scoring RAF fighter pilots of WW2 and his total numbered perhaps 51 kills.

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## Donald Johnson (May 11, 2021)

buffnut453 said:


> Note that the RAF didn't grant credit for aircraft destroyed on the ground, hence the total of 86 will raise a lot of eyebrows. Pat Pattle is generally acknowledged to be one of the top-scoring RAF fighter pilots of WW2 and his total numbered perhaps 51 kills.


Considering that Marshall's logbook survived the war and the Air Ministry purge, his kills, shared kills and on-ground destructions were at least a matter of record. This includes four, perhaps 5 Italian SM79s in a single engagement in North Africa.


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## stona (May 11, 2021)

What Air Ministry purge of log books?

"In 1959 the Particular Instance Paper Committee recommended the destruction, save for a few specimens, of log books remaining unclaimed in the Air Ministry despite announcements in the Press. Further announcements were then made through the Press and BBC stating that books not claimed by 15 September 1960 would be destroyed. Of the 6,400 shelf footage of log books, 20 feet were selected for preservation, aiming to illustrate: format of log books, types of flying training at home and abroad, aircrew trades, flying experience, operational flying experience, theatres of war, campaigns and operations. Also selected were: log books of distinguished pilots or members of distinguished squadrons, especially those detailing engagements with the enemy; of pilots with exceptional flying experience; and of foreign nationals flying with the RAF."

To describe this as a purge is disingenuous at best.

Many log books were claimed and remained in family hands. There is something of a trade in them today. Though the decision was taken before the RAF museum was founded it retains a selection of log books.

I have all my father's log books.

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## emu27 (May 14, 2021)

> Ernest Marshall, who is credited with 86 enemy planes shot down, (six during the Battle of Britain), sared, probable, or destroyed on the ground


If it's Alfred Ernest Marshall he was credited with 19 victories, “Johnnie” Johnson had 34 as the number two highest scorer, “Pat” Pattle's score is regarded as the highest but poor records put his tally somewhere between 40 and 60.

Apparently Marshall died when he pulled the wings off a Mosquito while doing a beat up.

He 111 with V-1 bomb, November 4, 1944

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## Donald Johnson (May 14, 2021)

emu27 said:


> If it's Alfred Ernest Marshall he was credited with 19 victories, “Johnnie” Johnson had 34 as the number two highest scorer, “Pat” Pattle's score is regarded as the highest but poor records put his tally somewhere between 40 and 60.
> 
> Apparently Marshall died when he pulled the wings off a Mosquito while doing a beat up.
> 
> He 111 with V-1 bomb, November 4, 1944


I just started looking into this based on his son Barry's claims. He says he has his flight log books that can verify 21-26 kills in a Hurricane, including 5-6 Me-109s.an seaplanes on 

Something about their turning ability against inexperienced German pilots makes that possible. He also claims the thousands of RAF flight logs were destroyed by the Air Ministry in 1959 making his possession of one quite rare.

He has a full accounting of an engagement with a flight of Savoia Marchetti bombers bouncing four and probably five (according to Italian records), and a half dozen seaplanes on the ground (water?). Verification and other places to look would be appreciated.


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## emu27 (May 14, 2021)

> He says he has his flight log books that can verify 21-26 kills in a Hurricane


What is written in a logbook with respect to claims is not factual evidence. Over claiming on numbers shot down was endemic by all participants. Be interesting the number claimed when flying the Mosquito.


> He also claims the thousands of RAF flight logs were destroyed by the Air Ministry in 1959 making his possession of one quite rare


Nothing rare at all, aircrew that were demobbed retained their logs, those destroyed by the Air Ministry would be those who were KIA, as was Marshall, the only thing rare about his logbook is someone answered the Air Ministry advertisement as spelt out by *stona*.

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## fastmongrel (May 15, 2021)

Legend says a lot of the Air Ministry records were dumped in a hole under a roundabout on the North Circular road. 

Probably next to a load of Spitfires

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## Crimea_River (May 15, 2021)

...still in their crates and fully preserved.

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