# What makes an ace?



## dead parrot (Jul 19, 2004)

This is something I've been wondering about for a while now, but what do you all think is the key factor that turns a fighter pilot into an ace?

The vast majority of pilots seemed to have muddled through battles and got somewhere between 0 and 1 or maybe 2 kills, but a precious few acccount for a huge percentage of a fighter force's kills. What do these aces have in common?

One factor I have frequently come across is that aces already knew how to shoot (rifles etc) before becoming pilots. But I find this kind of strange, because I can't help thinking that shooting a rifle and lining up a plane for a shot are two completly different skill sets...

Anyways, what do you think?


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## Maestro (Jul 19, 2004)

Hmmm... You're post remembered me a strange story I heard about a Canadian ace of WW II.

The guy (if I remember well) was from Trois-Rivières and loved duck hunting. When the war started, he went to England and enlisted in the RAF (RCAF didn't wanted him). This guy was so used (as a duck hunter) to listen carefully, that he could hear a enemy plane's engine before it came at sight. So he had the time to jump in a plane and warm-up the engine before Germans could straffle the airstrip.

The guy was so talented that, a couple of years later, Canada forced him back and gave him a high-ranking spot in the RCAF.

Is it a true story or only a legend, I'll never know.


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 19, 2004)

There were several things which contributed to being an Ace. Good gunnery helped, but wasn't required (Dick Bong was an ace several times over before receiving ANY training in air-to-air gunnery). Good eye-sight was important as was aggressiveness. I think one of the keys was a knowledge of your aircraft and that of your enemies. The pilot who can use the strengths of his plane and avoid the strengths of his enemy is bound to have success.


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## plan_D (Jul 20, 2004)

Or it could just be (in the USAAF) shooting three aircraft on the ground.


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## dead parrot (Jul 20, 2004)

Dick Ira Bong--what a name... 

But, seriously, he is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He was a farm boy who grew up hunting with guns. So, he was good shot with a rifle and therefore he was a good shot in a plane, even though he had no air-to-air gunnery training...


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## plan_D (Jul 20, 2004)

It's the same principal, aim and shoot. On top of that, he probably was used to hitting moving targets. So he had a clue about firing in front of the target to bring the target into the bullet.


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 20, 2004)

Bong was skilled in hunting but was never considered a good air-to-air marksmen. The majority of his kills were scored at dangerously close ranges where the chances of missing were virtually nil. After the war, he admitted that if he had received propery gunnery training before being deployed he could have doubled his score.

The destruction of aircraft on the ground was only counted in Europe. If you want to get on some one about their kill counts, get on the French or some of the Eastern European countries. They counted shared victories as whole kills and sometimes award multiple victories for dowing 1 plane (ie, 1 pilot might get credit for 2 kills because he shot down a twin-engined airplane).


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## plan_D (Jul 20, 2004)

I'm not getting at it, I'm just stating a fact. Destroying 3 planes on the ground wasn't as easy as it sounds.


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 20, 2004)

I don't think 3 planes on the ground was ever considered an ace. 3 on the ground plus 2 in the air might be.


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## plan_D (Jul 21, 2004)

I saw it on a programme, and even a few Mustang pilots on it said so. I've got an interview with another Mustang pilot in a magazine who had 3 air kills, and he was an ace too. One was a Schwalbe, so I'll let him off.  

The Germans weren't impressed if you were still in double figures.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 21, 2004)

well that's more they had in the air late in the war......................


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 21, 2004)

I haven't seen anybody counting 3 as an Ace unless they had additional ground kills to make it to five. The Germans really looked down on the 5 kill mark. You needed at least 10 for it to mean anything to Luftwaffe. And they had over 100 pilots with 100+ kills.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 21, 2004)

yes but allot of them stayed on the ground, which is why i was carefull with my choise of words....................


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## Maestro (Jul 21, 2004)

I have some statistics about WW II Aces. (I appologize for any mistake, I translated it from French.)

Luftwaffe:

Colonel Erich "Bubi" Hartmann, best pilot, 352 victories
Major Erich Rudorffer, 7th best pilot, 222 victories
Lieutenant-Colonel Dietrich Hrabak, 125 victories

USAAF:

Colonel Gregory "Pappy" Boyington, 28 victoires
Major Robert S. Johnson, 27 victories
Major John T. Godfrey, 16.33 victories

RAF:

Vice Air-Marshall J.E. "Johnnie" Johnson, best RAF pilot in Europe, 38 victories
Captain Alan C. Deere, 22.5 victories

Well, that's all I have...


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## dead parrot (Jul 21, 2004)

Hmm, I wonder how many of those were good shots with rifles etc before they ever flew...? Maestro, do you know off-hand?

Just another example I have seen (from The Most Dangerous Enemy, so a lot of you guys know it, I reckon), is the British ace Robert Doe. He had grown up shooting a rifle a lot when he was a kid, and so in his first ever action managed to shoot down two Me110s, despite the fact that he was an uncomfortable pilot who never did well at all at the acrobatic stuff. He put his success down to being a good shot and having a simple evasive technique that worked for him.


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## Erich (Jul 21, 2004)

Hey guys it has been several dyas of R R.

let's make it perfectly clear for an air ace 5 kills were needed, For an air to ground ace 5 kills were needed. 3 kills does not make you an ace flying in WW 2 with the US of A, so that material is crock ! Fine so he scored 1 Me 262, but that does not elevate the score by 2-3 though. for the US the air to air kills were the most important followe by ground kills. Both air and ground were summed up together as an overall total for US pilots flying in the ETO. Not sure at all about the PTO, my weak point.

For the Luftwaffe, the air to air kills is the only thing that mattered unless you were of the Schlacht units and then they were counted especially armor kills. Seems that a/c shot up on the ground was not given high priority in the overall count for the pilots and their awards. Hve never heard of 5 kills being looked down upon by the German fighter forces and in fact in 1945 it was actually praised and their was hope for a few newer pilots that were able to score that many against the RAF/US and still live to talk about it. Same goes for the German night fighter forces.

Incidently Erich Rüdoffer's score could be specualted as there were not witnesse's to all of his kills, sadly Erich will not answer any more mails so this cannot even be attempted.......

E ~


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 21, 2004)

Air to ground kills were not counted by US forces in the Pacific war although some people (particularly in the Navy) kept track of them as a separate catergory. The air groups aboard the USS Yorktown CV-10, for example, used the symbol of a duck (as in sitting duck) to signify a strafing kill.


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## dead parrot (Jul 23, 2004)

plan_D said:


> (snip)...I've got an interview with another Mustang pilot in a magazine who had 3 air kills, and he was an ace too. One was a Schwalbe, so I'll let him off.  ...(snip)



Plan-D, it's a long shot, but are you talking about Ben Drew, an interview with whom appeared in World War II magazine, March 2004? His 5th and 6th kills were Me-262s, both on the same day. He also help destroy the prototype of the HUGE Bv-238V1, thus putting an end to its development.


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## plan_D (Jul 23, 2004)

If I can find the magazine I'll tell you, but it's not him. This one got one Me-262 killed and 2 damaged in one day.


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## lesofprimus (Jul 29, 2004)

Here is the list that I have been compiling for quite some time...
Enjoy...

USSR

Ivan Nikitovich Kozhedub 62
Alexandr Ivanovich Pokryshkin 59 
Grigori A. Rechkalov 58
Nikolai D. Gulayev 57
Dimitriy B. Glinka 56 
Kirill A. Yevstigneyev 53
Nikolai M. Skomorokov 52
Arsenii V. Vorozheykin 52
Aleksandr F. Klubov 50
Ivan M. Pilipenko 48
Aleksandr I. Koldunov 46
Pavel M. Kamozin 46
Vasilii N. Kubarev 46
Nikolai F. Krasnov 44
Vladimir I. Bobrov 43 
Sergi Morgunov 43
Georgi D. Kostilev 43
Vitalii I. Popkov 40
Aleksi V. Alelyukin 40
Lapanskii 40
Viktor F. Golubev 39 
Vasilii F. Golubev 38
Mikhail Y. Pivovarov 37
Sergi D. Luganskii 37
Anatoli G. Dolgikh 36 
Grigorii K. Gul'tyaev 36 
Nikolai F. Kuznetsov 36 
Ivan I. Babak 35
Nikolai S. Pavlushkin 35
Vladmir D. Lavrinenkov 35

SOUTH AFRICA

*Marmaduke Thomas St.John Pattle 62
Adolph Gysbert Malan 35
Petrus Hendrick Hugo 22
*Johannes Jacobus Le Roux 18
Albert Gerald Lewis 18

USA

Richard Ira Bong 40
*Thomas B. McGuire Jr.38
David McCampbell 34 
Gregory Boyington 28 (6 w/AVG)
Francis S. Gabreski 28 (+6.5 Korea)
Robert S. Johnson 28
Charles H. MacDonald 27
*George E. Preddy Jr. 26.83
Joseph Jacob Foss 26
*Robert Murray Hanson 25
*Lance C. Wade (RAF) 25
Cecil E. Harris 24
John C. Meyer 24 (+2 Korea)
Eugene A. Valencia 23 
Ray S. Wetmore 23
David C. Schilling 23
*Gerald R. Johnson 22
*Neel E. Kearby 22
Jay T. Robbins 22 
Fred Joseph Christensen 22
Dominic S. Gentile 22
John J. Voll 21 
Kenneth A. Walsh 21 
Walker M. Mahurin 20.75 (+3.5 Korea)
Donald N. Aldrich 20
*Thomas J. Lynch 20 
Robert B. Westbrook 20 

BRIT

James Edgar Johnson 38
*Brendan Eugene Finucane 32
William Vale 31
James H. Lacey 30
John Braham 29 (19 at night) 
Robert Stanford Tuck 29
Frank R. Carey 28 
Neville F. Duke 28.8
* Eric G. Lock 26
Billy Drake 25
* Geoffrey Allard 24
Douglas Bader 23
Donald E. Kingaby 23
Robert F. Boyd 23
Haurice M. Stephen 22.5 
Michael N. Crossley 22
H. J. L. Hallowes 21.33
A. A. McKellar 21 
Bransome A. Burbridge 21 (20 at night)
G. Gilroy 21 
H. J. L. Hallowes 21 
J. E. Rankin 21 
R. A. Harries 20.33 
John Cunningham 20 (19 at night)
R. H. Harries 20 
W. D. David 20

CANADA

George Frederick Beurling 31 
Vernon Crompton Woodward 21 
* Henry Wallace McLeod 19 
*Mark Henry Brown 18
George Clinton Keefer 17 
*William Thomas Klersy 16.5 
*William Lidstone McKnight 16.5 
Robert wendell McNair 16 
Edward Francis J. Charles 15.5 
James Francis Edwards 15 
Donald Currie Laubman 15


FRENCH

Pierre H. Closterman 33
Marcel Albert 23
*Jean E. F. Demozay 21
*Pierre Le Gloan 20
*Edmond Marin la Meslee 20
Roland De La Poype 17
Roger Sauvage 17
Jacques Andre 16
Louis Delfino 16
Michel Dorance 16
Jean Marie Accart 16
*Albert Littolff 15

AUSTRAILIA

Clive Robertson Caldwell 28.5
Charles Curnow Scherf 23.5
*Keith William Truscott 17
*Leslie Redford Clisby 16.5
Adrian Philip Goldsmith 16.25 
John Lloyd Waddy 15.5 
*Patrick Clarence Hughes 15.17
*Richard Nigel Cullen 15

NEW ZEALAND

Collin F.Gray 28
Alan Christopher Deere 22.5
Evan Dall Mackie 22
Raymond Brown Hessylyn 22
William V. Crawford-Compton 22
John Milne Checketts 22
Edgar James Kain 17
Brian John George Carbury 15.5

CZECH

Karel Miroslav Kuttelwascher (RAF) 28 (15 at night)
*Joseph Frantisek (RAF) 28
*Alois Vasatko 15.33
Frantisek Perina (RAF) 14

SPAIN

Juan Lario Sanchez 27 (USSR)
*Francisco Merono Pellicer 20 (USSR)
Vicente Beltran 20 (USSR)

JAPS

Tetsuzo Iwamoto 202
Hiroyoshi Nishizawa 174
*Shoichi Sugita 120 
*Takeo Okumura 98
Satoshi Anabuki 96 
*Mitsuyoshi Tarui 76 
Tadashi Nakajima 75
Isamu Sasaki 75 
Shigeo Fukumoto 72
*Toshio Ota 68 (Devil of Rabaul)?
Saburo Sakai 64
Kazuo Sugino 64 
Yasuhiko Kuroe 60
*Junichi Sasai 60 
*Hiromishi Shinohara 58
Sadaaki Akamatsu 54 
*Naoisihi Kanno 53 
*Goro Furugori 50 
Kenji Okabe 50 

FINNISH

Eino Ilmari Juutilainen 94.17
Hans (Hasse) Henrik Wind 78
Eino Antero Luukkanen 56
Urho Sakari Lehtovaara 44.5 
Oiva Emil K. Tuominen 44
Risto Olli P. Puhakka 43
Olavi Kauko Puro 36
Nils Edvard Katajainen 36
*Lauri Vilhelm Nissinen 32.33 
Kyosti Keijo E. Karhila 32.25
Jorma Karhunen 31.5
Emil Onerva Vesa 29.5 
Turo Tapio 'Tappi' Jarvi 28.5 
Klaus Jalmari Alakoski 26 
Altto Kalevi Tervo 23.25 
Jorma Kalevi Saarinen 23 
Eero Aulis Kinnunen 22.5 
Antti Johannes Tani 21.5 
Urho Paavo Johannes Myllyl 21

ROMANIA

Prince Constantine Cantacuzine 60 
*Alexandre Serbanescu 53
Florian Budu 40
Ion Milu 32
Mucenica 24
T. Greceanu 20 
Vinca 16 
Dan Vizanti 15 

CROATIA

*Mato Dukovak 40
*Cvitan Galic 38
Jan Gerthofer 33
Isidor Kovaric 28 
Jan Reznak 26
Mato Culinovic 18 
Dragutin Ivanic 18 

SLOVAK

Jan Gerthoffer 33
Jan Reznak 32
*Izidor Kovarik 29 
Frantisek Cyprich 21
Rudolf Bozik 19
Stefan Martis 19

HUNGARY

Dezso Szentgyorgyi 34
Gyorgy Debrody 26
Lajos Toth 26
*Laszlo Molnar 25
Mikos Kenyeres 19

ITALY

* Adriano Visconti 26
* Franco Lucchini 26
* Teresio Martinoli 23 
* Leonardo Ferrulli 22
* Mario Visentini 20
Franco Bordoni-Bisleri 19
Luigi Gorrini 19
Furio Lauri 18
Mario Vientini 17
Ugo Drago 16
Mario Bonzano 15
Duilio Fanali 15

GERMANY

Erich Hartmann 352
Gerhard Barkhorn 301
Guenther Rall 275
* Otto Kittel 267 
Theodore Weissenberger 252
Wilhelm Batz 237 
Erich Rudorffer 222 
Heinrich Bar 221
* Heinrich Ehrler 220
Hermann Graf 212
Johannes Weise 208
* Hans Philip 206 
Walter Schuck 206
Anton Hafner 204 
Helmut Lipfert 203
Walter Krupinski 197 
Anton Hackl 192 
* Maximilian Stotz 189
Joachim Brendel 189
* Joachim Kirschner 188 
Kurt Hans Friedrich Brandle 180 
Guenther Josten 178 
Johannes Steinhoff 178-176
*Albin Wolf 176
Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert 174 
Gunther Schack 174
*Emil Lang 173 
*Heinz Johnny Schmidt 173
*Horst Adameit 166
*Wolf-Dietrich Wilke 162
*Hans-Joachim Marseille 158
*Heinrich Sturm 158
Gerhard Thyben 157
*Hans Beiswenger 152
Peter Duettmann 152
Gordon Gollob 150


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## MichaelHenley (Jul 29, 2004)

Whoa! That's a lot!
I think that you need to kill a LOT of planes that would take mor than luck to kill, e.g. Back in WWII: 20 Planes before you become an ace, Today: Maybe 30-60?

P.S. Mabe we could have an ace ranking if we don't have one already?


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## toffi (Jul 29, 2004)

Lesofprimus, there is one part missing in Your aces list. 

POLAND:
Stanislaw Skalski 22 - ww2 first ace - 6 kills in Sept. 1939
Witold Urbanowicz 18
Eugeniusz Horbaczewski 16,5
Boleslaw Gladych 14
Jan Zumbach 12,5
Marian Pisarek 11

Rest of pilots had less than 10 kills.


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## lesofprimus (Jul 29, 2004)

Hey... Thx for the info. I have copied it to my list...


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 29, 2004)

30-60 planes today to become an ace? No one would ever make that! Most aviation experts doubt anyone will ever again hit five. Here's why. There are far fewer aircraft today than their were in WWI or WWII. The entire USAF ACC has somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000 aircraft today. That is less than the total of just the 8th AF in WWII. What is more, barring a very large scale war (which is blessedly unlikely) a pilot is unlikely to have the time or the targets required to be an ace. I don't remember off hand but I believe the total air-to-air kills for the Gulf War were around 40 and I don't know of any individual pilot who had more than 2.


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## Maestro (Jul 29, 2004)

lesofprimus said:


> FRENCH
> 
> Pierre H. Closterman 33



Can somebody exlain that to me ? If Pierre H. Closterman was French, how the hell was he able to fly with the R.A.F. 602 Squadron ? Didn't Free French Forces had their own squadrons ?

Anybody who can explain it to me is welcome...


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## plan_D (Jul 29, 2004)

I think there were still mixed squadrons. LG, I doubt the air-to-air kills in the Gulf even reached 40, we destroyed their aircraft while on the ground. In the Falklands Harriers of the RN got a quite nice kill rate, for the loss of three to ground fire. 

LG is right. There'll never be such thing as an ace these days.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 29, 2004)

perhaps he was just put into a normall squadren................


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## toffi (Jul 29, 2004)

Closterman was French, how the hell was he able to fly with the R.A.F. 602 Squadron ? 

Many Poles was put in RAF fighter squadrons in 1940, as there was only 2 pure Polish squadrons (302. 303.) at this time.


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## Dan (Jul 29, 2004)

what makes an Ace (hmm they should write a book on that) well what i think makes and Ace is a pilot who can make a certain amount of kills (hot streak) without being shoot down (hey does the names Erich Hartmann (german bf-109 ace) and Cdr. Tommy Blackburn (American F4U-1A Ace sound familiar to u guys?)


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 29, 2004)

According to the research done by Tom Clancy, there where 41 air-to-air kills in the Gulf. 35 were by F-15s, 2 from F-18s, 2 from F-14s, and 2 by A-10s (over Iraqi helicopters).


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## plan_D (Jul 29, 2004)

I don't believe that. Especially the A-10 ones. Unless they had just got off the deck, then in my books that's not an air-to-air kill. What was shot down?


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 29, 2004)

The A-10 kills are reported (in detail) in a magazine I have (not with me unfortunately). At least one (and I believe both) were over Mi-8 'Hip' helicopters. In both instances, the pilots attempted to engage with the AIM-9s recently added to Hog's arsenal. However, neither pilot could get a tone and so they both resorted to using the GAU-8. 30mm DU rounds will make very short work of any helicopter.


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## MichaelHenley (Jul 30, 2004)

Lightning Guy said:


> 30-60 planes today to become an ace?...


Sorry about the giant miscalculation!  I was just thinking of how difficult it would be to get an Air-to-air kill these days, as opposed to during WWII.


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## lesofprimus (Jul 30, 2004)

Plan d... If u doubt the research done by Tom Clancy, whose research can u trust in??


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## plan_D (Jul 30, 2004)

There's no doubt in my mind the cannon on the A-10 could destroy a Hip. It's still unbelievable, if only through shock. 

If you blindly follow all, then you'll never find anything. Every historian, or military expert has made mistakes. I would believe it much easier if I knew the planes downed.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 30, 2004)

hehe, that's true, we had a history lesson on the BoB the other day, the teacher kept making mistakes so i had to correct him in front of the whole class................


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 30, 2004)

Well, I've seen the accounts of the A-10 kills in more than one source. Checking the total number of kills, sources seem to vary, but the total for the Gulf War appears to be right around 40.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 31, 2004)

so pretty much their entire air force ................


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 31, 2004)

Actually the Iraqis had a fairly impressive on paper. Most of them were blown up in their HAS. The ones that weren't mostly ran for Iran. Very few of them came up to fight but even fewer lived to tell about it.


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## plan_D (Jul 31, 2004)

They also had one of the largest men armies in the world. Until we blew it up in '90 then again in '03. They just never learn.


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## lesofprimus (Jul 31, 2004)

Their army was never a real concern 4 us... I witnessed many things in the first Gulf War, one of which was the surrendering of 35 Iraqis to a Kiowa Scout Helicopter, with NO armament...

In a nighttime interdiction, we witnessed 6 Iraqi soldiers get executed by their commander because they were attempting to convice their buddies to surrender... We ended up killing most of em in the ensuing firefight...


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## plan_D (Jul 31, 2004)

I know a lot of stories from my dad about the Gulf. And he was in the desert not back in Saudi.


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## lesofprimus (Jul 31, 2004)

What branch and unit did ur dad serve in???


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## plan_D (Jul 31, 2004)

R.A.F - attached to Chinook Middle East squadron (In the Gulf). Which was a mixture of RAF Chinook squadrons. He served out on a F.O.B which was somewhere in Iraq. For the Special Forces doing their duty further into Iraq. 

Two tents and two Chinooks aren't the best company, but the SLR and LMG makes up for it.


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## lesofprimus (Jul 31, 2004)

Very cool... I saw ur other post about ur Dad...

The worst thing about being deployed are MRE's... I couldnt stand 3/4's of em... The smell of ham and potatoes were enough to make me vomit...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 1, 2004)

i take it the food wasn't much cop then??


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## lesofprimus (Aug 1, 2004)

> i take it the food wasn't much cop then??


Not sure what thtat statement means, but MRE stands for Meals Ready to Eat... Brown and green plastic bagged package with a full meals daily nutrition stuffed inside...

A few were actually quite good... The beef stew, when heated up, was good, although u wouldnt dare try to put it in ur mouth cold...

Amazing how the texture, taste, and smell of a certain food can vary so damn much with just 40 degrees worth of heating...

The other thing bad about MRE's is that, if u eat them long enough, u'll never have to have a bowel movement (take a dump)... Walking around in the desert with that bloated feeling is the worst...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 1, 2004)

> i take it the food wasn't much cop then



that basically means "i take it the food wasn't much good then"..................


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## lesofprimus (Aug 1, 2004)

The food sucked...


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## plan_D (Aug 1, 2004)

That's what you Americans thought of yours, and that's what the British thought of theirs. But my dad swapped a lot of his Rat Packs with American ones. 
You lot had tabasco sauce with some of yours, so I heard.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 2, 2004)

Yea a small little bottle of it... I dont use it so i gave em away... There was candy, as well as crackers and peanut butter.. That was the best... 

I used to eat the hell outta peanut butter... Great source of protein and energy...


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## plan_D (Aug 2, 2004)

Did you ever swap with any Brits, while out in the Gulf? Some nice Rat beans and sausage...I've had that, my dad brought loads back. Lovely stuff.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 2, 2004)

i dont recall ever having swapped out food stuffs with you Brits, or anyone else...


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## plan_D (Aug 2, 2004)

That's your loss then.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 2, 2004)

more advertising for the brits, not only do we make good boots, we make good "just add water" meals.................


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## plan_D (Aug 2, 2004)

Well actually the British forces didn't like their Rat Packs, as the Americans didn't like their own. So they swapped because they loved each others, and the British ones had curry in them. 
The thing with the American ones was they had little bags that you opened then shook and a chemical reaction would heat the food. Not the British, they still had the old stove and metal spoons.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 3, 2004)

This is true... And not true... Some of the guys loved MRE's, and i would save and store the ones i liked for eating when onboard ship...

Some of the food they served onboard wasnt fit for human consumption, especially when bein at sea for 2 months straight with no port call...

Most of them also had chicklets in them, which is gum...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 3, 2004)

i can't stand gum.......................



> The thing with the American ones was they had little bags that you opened then shook and a chemical reaction would heat the food. Not the British, they still had the old stove and metal spoons.



that's the brits for you....................


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## lesofprimus (Aug 3, 2004)

Dude, when ur sittin on ambush for 6 hours in the swealtering heat, with these flies as big as sparrows buzzin you incessantly, GUM IS DA BOMB!!!


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## plan_D (Aug 3, 2004)

Did you get shipped out to the Gulf? My dad was always flown out to warzones, C-130 down to the Falklands with about 6 other lads and lots of cargo. Special flight, they wanted him down there quick. And a 747 to the Gulf, then a Chinook to his base in the middle of nowhere.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 3, 2004)

No we took ships across, and used them as our training and staging platforms... Usually we were onboard Amphibs, specifically the USS Inchon, Guam, Whibdly Island, Newport News, and Nassau...

Been staged from Aircraft Carriers as well... USS JFK, Saratoga... Pretty cool those times were...

We also did alot of river ops... That was nuts and I still have some nightmares regarding them...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Aug 3, 2004)

> Been staged from Aircraft Carriers as well... USS JFK, Saratoga... Pretty cool those times were...




What, with no women?


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## lesofprimus (Aug 4, 2004)

No this was before female integration on combat vessels... 1990-1995...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Aug 4, 2004)

HOW DID YOU SURVIVE?!!?


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## lesofprimus (Aug 4, 2004)

Without sex??? (Im married and faithfull)

Miserably...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 4, 2004)

i'm sure your wife loves you too..........................


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## lesofprimus (Aug 4, 2004)

She tries the best she can.... She's 100% Irish, with red hair.... I was doomed from the start...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 4, 2004)

> She tries the best she can.... She's 100% Irish, with red hair



i see a larger advert moment here.....................


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## lesofprimus (Aug 4, 2004)




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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 5, 2004)

so you know the type i'm on about??


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## lesofprimus (Aug 5, 2004)

yup.... Brutal Irish Women and the Men that like to be abused by them... Tomorrow on Oprah....


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## GermansRGeniuses (Aug 6, 2004)

My turn now!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 6, 2004)

> Brutal Irish Women and the Men that like to be abused by them... Tomorrow on Oprah....



obviously you've never seen a british larger advert, plan_d should back me up here??


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## plan_D (Aug 6, 2004)

Lager, where!?!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 6, 2004)




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## plan_D (Aug 7, 2004)

What Lager adverts are these? The ones with Melanie Sykes, the drip, Boddingtons adverts? I hate that stuff, give me an Angry any day. 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 7, 2004)

mainly the australian types, fosters and castlemain XXXX


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## plan_D (Aug 7, 2004)

Oh yeah, those are humourous in their own Australian beer being crap way.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 8, 2004)

you gotta love the fosters one with the big hairstyles to keep their beer chilled, my sister doesn't find it funny but that's because it's blokes humor..............


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## plan_D (Aug 8, 2004)

The advert is funny, the beer is crap though.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 8, 2004)

never tried it.....................


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## plan_D (Aug 8, 2004)

At 14 you should have tried several beers by now.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Aug 8, 2004)

At 13 I've sampled...


Sam Adams..

MGD...

Clausthaler Non-Alchoholic (all me mum allows...)

Cachaça, a Brasilian thing that occasionally has a volume as high as or higher than 44%!

That was by mistake, though.. My dad put it in a can of coconut juice from Brasil... Fitting, Cachaça usually is sweetened with coconut, anyway...


I do likes the Champagne...


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## MichaelHenley (Aug 9, 2004)

i havent tried anything yet either lanc... Beerless brothers in arms!


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## plan_D (Aug 9, 2004)

Beers (Stouts, Lagers, Bitters) - Murphys, Fosters, Stella Artois, Grolsch, Guiness, XXXX, Black Sheep, Timothy Taylors, Coors, Budweiser, Carlsberg (Export too), Carling, San Miguel, Tropical (Gran Canaria local)...and that's all I can remember. 

Others- Absinthe (75%), Dominican Rum, Vodka, Gin, Whiskey, Rum ... in most of these I've tried different kinds..like I've had Smirnoff Black..but that'd take ages remembering everything, 'cos sometimes I just drink cheap Vodka.


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## Maestro (Aug 9, 2004)

Don't take it bad, boys, but sometimes I wonder how all of you can drink all that alcoholic stuff. I'm 20 and I've tryed several licors (beer, wine, cognac) and I can say that I don't like the taste of alcohol. The taste itself is enough to make me vomit. I'm sure I'm the only guy to get sick BEFORE getting drunk.


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## plan_D (Aug 9, 2004)

No, a lot of people don't like the taste of alcohol. That's what Alchi-Pops are for, people who want to get drunk but don't like the taste. "Me, I like the sauce"...Absinthe will knock you on your back in 5 shots..it's 75%.


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## toffi (Aug 9, 2004)

Vodka is the best! 40%, half of liter and you still can drink another one half!


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## plan_D (Aug 9, 2004)

Absinthe makes Vodka look like a babies drink.


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## toffi (Aug 9, 2004)

Well than try to have a litre of vodka and stay alive (I can). Although there is something that really kicks ass (and it's not the lanc) - pure spirit - 90%. Managed to drink half a litre and lost conscious for an hour.


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## plan_D (Aug 9, 2004)

I've drank a litre of Vodka. It's not that hard.


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## toffi (Aug 9, 2004)

With no juice but two beers and some wine instead? I doubt. 

Drinking vodka is not hard at all. As Russians say: To experience the magical attribute of vodka, you have to drink it with glasses.
And that is much true - if you drink vodka in small amounts, you get drunk easily. If the amounts are at least 200ml, the world becomes colourful.


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## plan_D (Aug 9, 2004)

Been there done that. I drink Vodka straight as normal. It's not only Slavics that can drink.


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## toffi (Aug 9, 2004)

That's good...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 9, 2004)

> At 14 you should have tried several beers by now.



no i haven't tasted fosters, that's kids stuff, plenty of real ale, that's the stuff you want........................


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## GermansRGeniuses (Aug 9, 2004)

Uncle of mine was commenting Sunday at a Father's day reunion, (it was this Sunday in Brasil) ''You can start drinking whatever age you like, 'cos with feet that big, you won't lose balance and fall!''


In UK size, I think I'm a 42...


My loafers/dress-ish (Italian driving shoes) pair are a size 11 U.S, 42/43 Brasil, maybe 41 UK.

My Nikes are 11-1/2 so maybe 41/42 UK.

My low cut Hurleys (Converse All-Star design) are 11-1/2, so same as Nikes.

My Dress shoes are the same as the Nikes and Hurleys.

For screwing around here on vacation, I've been using my dad's size 13 work boots he left here...



I'm 1m 65cm tall.

5ft, 5in I think.


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## MichaelHenley (Aug 10, 2004)

Can I ask What beer has to do with aces?


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## Maestro (Aug 10, 2004)

Because when you shoot down 10+ planes, you want to celebrate !


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## toffi (Aug 10, 2004)

10 planes = 10 beers


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## plan_D (Aug 10, 2004)

Size 11 U.S is size 10 U.K.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 10, 2004)

the sizes you were quoting GrGs are european sizes, we use different sizes, and i'm 14, 5"10 and size 11 feet..................


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## lesofprimus (Aug 10, 2004)

Im 38, 6'6" and size 14 shoe....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 11, 2004)

that's american 14 is it?? i know know what that is in english sizes..............


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## lesofprimus (Aug 11, 2004)

Of course american size...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 12, 2004)

do you know what that is in english??


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## plan_D (Aug 12, 2004)

14 U.S is 13 U.K.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 13, 2004)

ok so i'm not far behind considdering i'm 14.................


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## MichaelHenley (Aug 14, 2004)

All right then- carry on drinking


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 14, 2004)




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## MichaelHenley (Aug 14, 2004)

Sorry- Should have added What Plan D said...


Because when you shoot down 10+ planes, you want to celebrate !


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 14, 2004)

ah yes, just make sure you land first.................


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## MichaelHenley (Aug 14, 2004)

Of course! Can't forget to land can we now!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 15, 2004)

well what i mean is don't celebrate by drinking whilst you're still flying, it tends to make landing difficult................


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## MichaelHenley (Aug 15, 2004)

Aah... of Coursh! but i thinksh i dranksh a bit too musch befor I landid.... *hic*


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 16, 2004)

now this begs the question, how many bottles of beer can you fit in the cockpit, i know that beer was sometimes carried to the front in barrels attached where the bomb normally goes, but i mean with you in the cockpit........................


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## MichaelHenley (Aug 17, 2004)

Yeah- we'd only drop empty kegs on the enemy!!!


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## Lightning Guy (Aug 17, 2004)

I've heard that the nose of a P-38 could carry four cases worth of scotch if ammo wasn't carried.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 17, 2004)

anything the P-38 could carry can be bettered by the mossie................


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## Lightning Guy (Aug 19, 2004)

So find me an instance of the Mossie being used to smuggle booze.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 19, 2004)

Gallands Me-109 could carry Lobsters.... And after getting shot down, it also set those poor little crustaceans free...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Aug 19, 2004)

Both sides used empty fuel tanks and droppable tanks as kegs occasionally.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 20, 2004)

could the P-38 carry 6 passengers.................


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## lesofprimus (Aug 20, 2004)

The P-38 was a fighter dude... That was a dumb thing to say.....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 21, 2004)

newsflash, the mossie could carry six........................


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## cheddar cheese (Aug 21, 2004)

the P-38 could probably carry about 12 people, just depends where abouts on the fuselage you strap them


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 21, 2004)

ah but here's the trick, the mossie could carry them INSIDE the plane, not strapped to the outside, and because the mossie had a greater wing area, lodgic suggests that the mossie could carry more on the outside..............


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## lesofprimus (Aug 21, 2004)

I think its safe to say the mossie could carry more booze than the -38...

Silly discussion anyways...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 21, 2004)

that you les.................


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## cheddar cheese (Aug 21, 2004)

ah, but the P-38 has twin booms 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 21, 2004)

meaning??


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## lesofprimus (Aug 21, 2004)

not sure...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 21, 2004)

it'll proberly be pointless..............


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## lesofprimus (Aug 21, 2004)

probably...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 21, 2004)

so you already know how CC works then


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## lesofprimus (Aug 21, 2004)

I'm getting the gist of it....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 21, 2004)

unfortunatly you'll be hearing a lot from him.................


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## lesofprimus (Aug 21, 2004)

Alot of spam, or good soild info on planes and pilots???


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 21, 2004)

spam, lots of it, and that's the annoying thing..................


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## cheddar cheese (Aug 21, 2004)

occasionally, i come up with a good bit of info though... and shouldnt you know what twin booms are? or am i the one in the wrong cos ive been away so long? by twin booms i mean twin fuselage...


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## lesofprimus (Aug 21, 2004)

I understood the boom thing, but I was under the assumption nothing could be stored in them to compare to a Lancs storage capabilities..


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## cheddar cheese (Aug 22, 2004)

i wasnt talking about storing things in them, i was saying that more people could be strapped to a P-38 because of its twin booms


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## lesofprimus (Aug 22, 2004)

Lol I think the surface area of the Lanc was greater, therefore more people could be strapped to it...

Although i think the strapping method would not work too well... I think large, industrial size staples would hold those people on better if u were to say, pull an Immelman...


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## cheddar cheese (Aug 22, 2004)




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## lesofprimus (Aug 22, 2004)

But would the staples hold in extreme G-force conditions????

Hmmmm...

What was the topic of this thread again???


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## MichaelHenley (Aug 23, 2004)

Now I remember... Aces-Something about them wasn't it?


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## cheddar cheese (Aug 23, 2004)

yes......perhaps we should get back on topic? 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 23, 2004)

oh, i was rather enjoying the other line of conversation................


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## MichaelHenley (Aug 23, 2004)

Me 2- Even thoughI haven't had more than 1L of Alcohol in my life... And I haven't been strapped to a plane before either


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 24, 2004)

i've never been in a plane in my life, or a boat................


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## Maestro (Aug 24, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> i've never been in a plane in my life, or a boat................



You're living on a big island and you never been in a boat ?

I've been on a boat many times... Numerous ferries, the "Jacques Cartier" and my father's boat (we never named it... but he sold it before we could name it).


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## GermansRGeniuses (Aug 25, 2004)

I've been whale watching when I was little and I go to Brasil by plane every year.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 25, 2004)

it's strange, in cornwall you're never more than 20 miles from the sea yet i've never been on a boat...................


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## MichaelHenley (Aug 25, 2004)

Maestro said:


> You're living on a big island and you never been in a boat ?


I'm living on a BIGGER island and been on a plane AND a boat, numerous times...[/quote]


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## lesofprimus (Aug 25, 2004)

I grew up on Long Island, which is part of New York... My Dad owned a boat...

I now live on the Gulf of Mexico, and own a boat myself...

Go out on it every weekend...

I fly around 5-6 times a year for various family reasons, and for work...


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## MichaelHenley (Aug 26, 2004)

I'm going to go into a job in which I can smell jet fuel- I love the smell of it! Sort of. (But not thinking of going into sniffing it anytime soon)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 26, 2004)

i don't think there's much demand for professional fuel smellers these days................


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## MichaelHenley (Aug 26, 2004)

I know... not actually sniffing it as a profession, just having it hang around...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 27, 2004)

> not actually sniffing it as a profession



it would be fun though....................


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## lesofprimus (Aug 27, 2004)

Yea, till ur brain goes pop... Then ur a vegetable like all those huffers out there...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 28, 2004)

i like the smell of petrol and diesil fumes..........


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## lesofprimus (Aug 28, 2004)

"In the morning... It smells like Victory..."


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 28, 2004)

i don't really know what victory smells like..................


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## lesofprimus (Aug 28, 2004)

it was a quote from Apocalypse Now....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 28, 2004)

ah..............


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## MichaelHenley (Aug 30, 2004)

Yeah- Aerofuel smell nice.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 30, 2004)

i've never smelt aerofuel..................


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## MichaelHenley (Aug 31, 2004)

One easy way to smell aerofuel is to go to a light aircraft airport- the boarding terminal willl probably have some sort of open air cafe or something like that.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 31, 2004)

in the south-west we have about 3 or 4 airports, newquay, plymouth exeter and bristol are the only ones i can think of, plymouth and newquay are tiny and can't even take any form of jet, exeter and bristol are to far away....................


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