# Rear view mirrors in fighters



## Chocks away! (May 18, 2005)

Why weren't these standard in all fighters? It seems just about the most useful thing in dogfighting to me. Particularly in aircraft like the 109s and others with limited view to the rear. Why didn't the Germans in particular make any extensive use of them?


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (May 18, 2005)

not enough technology involved for the germans


----------



## Erich (May 18, 2005)

wanna bet.............

yes they had them on 109's


----------



## FLYBOYJ (May 18, 2005)

My former neighbor Mike Alba (Col. USAF Ret) flew a P-51 in the ETO during WW2. He had his P-51 modified with one rear view mirror mounted on the windshield frame. He said we swore by that mirror and stated that it save his life on a few occasions.

I actually found a photo of him from the site "Little Friends." You could see his custom mirror. In other photos I've seen of him in his P-51 "Dottie" he had the mirror mounted much higher.


----------



## DAVIDICUS (May 18, 2005)

I understand that the Germans didn't use their turn signals either. Bastards!


----------



## Chocks away! (May 18, 2005)

Erich said:


> wanna bet.............
> 
> yes they had them on 109's


 Only one in every 1000 or so. I did say extensive use...


----------



## Chocks away! (May 18, 2005)

FLYBOYJ said:


> My former neighbor Mike Alba (Col. USAF Ret) flew a P-51 in the ETO during WW2. He had his P-51 modified with one rear view mirror mounted on the windshield frame. He said we swore by that mirror and stated that it save his life on a few occasions.
> 
> I actually found a photo of him from the site "Little Friends." You could see his custom mirror. In other photos I've seen of him in his P-51 "Dottie" he had the mirror mounted much higher.


 My point exactly... Hmmm...


----------



## Erich (May 18, 2005)

the subject was already coverd by me in an earlier thread. Not sure why you guys don;t go through older postings and post on there. I placed sveral nie pics of 1-3 mirrors on P-47 and P-51's for indication.

chocks away breathe deep now .........


----------



## Chocks away! (May 18, 2005)

Erich said:


> the subject was already coverd by me in an earlier thread. Not sure why you guys don;t go through older postings and post on there. I placed sveral nie pics of 1-3 mirrors on P-47 and P-51's for indication.
> 
> chocks away breathe deep now .........


 Only joking mate. But my subject is different! Doesn't anyone understand me? (ok that was gay)


----------



## lesofprimus (May 18, 2005)

Once it was understood that alot of pilots were being lost to sneak attacks from the 6 oclock posistion, more than a couple pilots started getting them put up there...

Great pic and story FBJ.............


----------



## FLYBOYJ (May 18, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> Once it was understood that alot of pilots were being lost to sneak attacks from the 6 oclock posistion, more than a couple pilots started getting them put up there...
> 
> Great pic and story FBJ.............



Thanks Les - I got more on this guy, will post when the subject arises


----------



## Chocks away! (May 19, 2005)

DAVIDICUS said:


> I understand that the Germans didn't use their turn signals either. Bastards!


----------



## GT (May 19, 2005)

Update.


----------



## evangilder (May 19, 2005)

GT, I find that graphic you put in this post to be quite offensive to Americans. Would you please remove it? Thanks


----------



## FLYBOYJ (May 19, 2005)

evangilder said:


> GT, I find that graphic you put in this post to be quite offensive to Americans. Would you please remove it? Thanks



I do to - if you want to protest world events and politics, I suggest creating another fourm.


----------



## GT (May 19, 2005)

Update.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (May 19, 2005)

GT said:


> I will respect your wishes, but have in mind that this was directed againts the Nazis in WW 2.
> 
> Cheers
> GT



Thank you GT


----------



## GT (May 19, 2005)

Update.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (May 19, 2005)

GT said:


> No problem for me.
> 
> My post was directed towards the Nazis in WW 2 and I´m sorry if I did not make that clear.
> 
> ...



No Problem


----------



## evangilder (May 19, 2005)

Thanks, GT.


----------



## GT (May 19, 2005)

Update.


----------



## Erich (May 19, 2005)

did some one say mirrors : on Me 262 jet killer from the 55 fg.

he will be coverd in the piston engine jobs against 262's later...


----------



## FLYBOYJ (May 19, 2005)

GT said:


> OK !
> 
> Now that this question have been resolved to everybodys satisfaction, let´s return to my answer.
> 
> ...



Very true, although the fellow in the picture I posted earlier mounted his mirror higher, and if I remember right, he said it gave him better visibility and vibrated less.


----------



## GT (May 19, 2005)

Update.


----------



## Erich (May 19, 2005)

Birtceil shot down a Me 262 while flying this P-51 shown


----------



## plan_D (May 19, 2005)

I have a picture of 347th FS, 361st FG P-51Bs and Ds - the Bs have their mirrors on. 

1st Lt. Ananian's "Baby Mine" has it's mirror on, and he shot down his 262 in that. 

A picture of two P-51Ds from 504th FS, 339th FG taking off both have mirrors on.

Cpt. Robinson's "Little One II" - 339th FG has it's mirror on

Major Tower's "Tar Heel" - 339th FG has it's mirror on. 

They're just a from a few pictures I have. I seem to notice no restored Mustangs have mirrors on though. Well, you don't need to see a 262 riding your ass these days.


----------



## plan_D (May 19, 2005)

Capt. Richard C "Slick" Penrose. 504th FS, 339th FG. P-51D "Beaver Chant". Carrying mirror{s}


----------



## Erich (May 20, 2005)

Penrose was the spokesperson for the 339th fg and he is the one I was going to interview but alas he passed away at his home in Bend Oregon.

thanks for posting.........


----------



## evangilder (May 20, 2005)

Darn, he has probably taken some great stories and info with him.


----------



## plan_D (May 20, 2005)

I've been reading about the 339th FG recently. A remarkable unit, it was 3rd in kill tallies and 4th in jet kill tallies and it served in the ETO a year less than the 56th FG.


----------



## R Leonard (May 20, 2005)

Well, for what they’re worth,

Here’s a couple of Spitfire VB from VCS-7 in June 1944 with mirrors 





USN Photo




USN Photo

And over in the Pacific, here’s an F4F-4, oh, along about 8 June 1942, aboard USS Hornet. Rear-view mirror is visible inside the windscreen at the top. 





USN Photo (Pilot is my father, XO of USS Yorktown’s VF-3.)

Rich


----------



## FLYBOYJ (May 20, 2005)

Nice photos - tell us more about your Dad!


----------



## R Leonard (May 22, 2005)

Rather than a long song and dance about my father, take a look at 
http://www.centurytel.net/midway/appendix/bios/vf3_william_n_leonard.html

And on the subject of mirrors, here’s some more photos of USN fighters that, if you look close you can see the rearview mirrors. Most are mounted inside the canopy, the F2A, though, has its mirror mounted over the top of the windscreen.

F4U-1 (VF-17) You'll have to look real, real close, but its there




USN Photo

F2A This photo was taken in August 1942. Pilot is Commander Joseph Clifton




USN Photo

F6F from VF-74 aboard USS Kasaan Bay during the invasion of southern France




USN Photo

Another F6F, this one from VF-38 piloted by Lieut Oscar Chenowith in 1943




USN Photo

And another shot of Chenowith in an F6F with a real good view of the mirror, note convex shape.




USN Photo

Regards, 

Rich


----------



## lesofprimus (May 22, 2005)

All great pics....


----------



## evangilder (May 22, 2005)

Nice!


----------



## buffnut453 (Apr 27, 2010)

R Leonard said:


> Rather than a long song and dance about my father, take a look at
> http://www.centurytel.net/midway/appendix/bios/vf3_william_n_leonard.html
> 
> And on the subject of mirrors, here’s some more photos of USN fighters that, if you look close you can see the rearview mirrors. Most are mounted inside the canopy, the F2A, though, has its mirror mounted over the top of the windscreen.
> ...



Rich,

For some reason I can't see your pics (get a big red "X" for each of them). Do you (or anyone else reading the thread) have any ideas on what I need to do to view them?

Cheers,
Mark


----------



## beaupower32 (Apr 27, 2010)

You do realize this thread is 5 years old?


----------



## buffnut453 (Apr 27, 2010)

beaupower32 said:


> You do realize this thread is 5 years old?



Thanks Beaupower. That'll be the problem. Guess I should be more alert (awake?) when I post dumb questions.


----------



## beaupower32 (Apr 27, 2010)

Its all good, the pictures he posted are probably no longer there.


----------



## Timppa (Apr 27, 2010)

Erich said:


> wanna bet.............
> yes they had them on 109's



I have never seen one.
You have any picture ?


----------



## drgondog (Apr 27, 2010)

plan_D said:


> I've been reading about the 339th FG recently. A remarkable unit, it was 3rd in kill tallies and 4th in jet kill tallies and it served in the ETO a year less than the 56th FG.



Plan D - yes they were a very good group.. but they were 3rd in a/c destroyed on the Ground with 431 credits, 355th = 501 and 4th = 461. They actually came close to passing the 355th in April, 1945 with a remarkable two days.


----------



## drgondog (Apr 27, 2010)

just realized the age of the thread..


----------

