# Willi Reschke´s G-?, August 29th,1944



## seesul (Aug 7, 2007)

Hi ya all,

I have already started this discussion at http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/ta-152-best-high-altitude-fighter-460-33.html but don´t wanna bore this thread anymore as it is about Ta-152H.
On August 29th 1944 while attacking B-17G´s from 20 Sqdn,2ndBG, one Bf109, that was behind Willi Reschke´s machine, shot of a part of Willi´s Bf109 and Willi was forced to emergency landing near Banov. After the landing Willi was transfered to rail station in Uhersky Brod and drove by train to his unit.
Local people toke some pictures of his machine. I know 4 pictures till now and have 3 pics available (attached). As Willi says in his book it should be G-6 version and all the available sources say the same but the pictures show something different. There are no usual bulges on the engine cowling and this machine seems like G-6AS,G-10 or G-14AS.
Can someone identify this machine?

Thanks

Roman

P.S. for German speaking people- I´ve opened the same discussion at LBB « Luftwaffe Bullet Board » Forum zur deutschen Luftfahrtgeschichte


----------



## seesul (Aug 7, 2007)

Trumpeter produces Willi Reschke´s Bf109G-6 in scale 1:24.On the transfer paper there´s a Wnr. 412960. Two versions from this kit are available- Willi Reschke´s and Erich Hartmann´s machine. Does someone know if this Wnr. had belonged to Hartmann´s machine? Willi Reschke doesn´t know the Wnr. of his emergency landed Bf. I´ve tried to contact the people from Trumpeter regarding this matter but no answer till now...

Roman


----------



## Erich (Aug 7, 2007)

Roman Willi flew a late model G-6. G-10's were not available to fall of 44 and even the G-14 and G-14/AS were late in coming. I do not feel that JG 302 had any g-6/AS as the unit was going through separation with the cadre off to other units, special emphasis on sister unit JG 301 with brand new Fw 190A-8, A-8/r2's and A-9's as it needed experienced pilots for tackling US heavy bombers during the daylight hours


----------



## seesul (Aug 8, 2007)

O.K. Erich, but if you compare the picture on the Trumpeter box, there are bulges on this machine. Trumpeter says it´s late version.
But on the photos taken after Willi´s crash landing I can´t see the same bulges and the same photos show ''big engine cowling'' that is (on my opinion, I´m not an expert) typical for the engines with bigger compressor, which would point to the AS version. Have you seen the discussion at Luftwaffe [LuftArchiv.de - Das Archiv der Deutschen Luftwaffe] 2.WK ? 

Gruss

Roman


----------



## seesul (Aug 8, 2007)

Erich,

and something else- look, what my friend had written at LBB « Luftwaffe Bullet Board » Forum zur deutschen Luftfahrtgeschichte

1)Kinnbeule
2)Bsk 16
3)Antenmast des FuG 16 ZY unter der linken Tragfläche

1 und 3 ist typische für G-14/AS, nicht für G-6/AS oder G-6/ASy. Ersten GMaschinen der G-14/AS reihe erhielt Jagdwaffe seit August 1944(z.B. II./JG 27-Quelle: Jochen Prien : Chronik des II/JG27 S. 471,455, II./JG 53-Quelle: J.Prien/P.Rodeike:messerschmitt Bf 109 F,G,K Series,S.148,149 

Oh man, what a mess...

Gruss

Roman


----------



## Wurger (Aug 8, 2007)

Undoubtedly, in the third pic it is clearly visible it isn't standard BF109G6.Look at the fin and the rudder,please.Besides looking at the engine cowling I got the impression that the engine could be the DB605AS.The hole on the cowling is very charakteristic for the power plant.It is possible the plane at the pic is the G6AS or early G10/G10AS.Certainly I can be wrong.Of course there is also possibility that these pisc don't show Willi Reschke's a/c.


----------



## seesul (Aug 8, 2007)

Wurger said:


> Undoubtedly, in the third pic it is clearly visible it isn't standard BF109G6.Look at the fin and the rudder,please.Besides looking at the engine cowling I got the impression that the engine could be the DB605AS.The hole on the cowling is very charakteristic for the power plant.It is possible the plane at the pic is the G6AS or early G10/G10AS.Certainly I can be wrong.Of course there is also possibility that these pisc don't show Willi Reschke's a/c.



Thanks for your opinion Wurger, what a mystery plane! 
Btw the fact, that this is Willi Reschke´s machine, is 100% sure. I live in this area, know the eye witnesses of his emergency landing and Willi was there last year and recognized this area. The girl on left is still alive and remembers him after the landing and met him last year again...

Roman


----------



## Wurger (Aug 10, 2007)

Hi Roman,
So, it is really a mistery plane.

Wojtek


----------



## seesul (Aug 11, 2007)

Hello Wojtek,

I spoke to Willi Reschke yesterday and he belives this photo is a photomontage.
_*But it is not*_ as I´ve seen an *original photo* in smaller size in the photo album of this girl (today ederly women for sure). This photo was taken in 1944 and is absolutely the same like this one that I´ve posted and shows the same machine 

Nice weekend

Roman


----------



## Wurger (Aug 11, 2007)

Hi,
I think, non of these pics are a photomontage.Unfortunately people in the pics covered very important parts of the plane for proper ID.The third pic is better one 'cos we can see the front part of the plane.But two girls covered its number and as a result we cannot be sure it is the same plane like this in shots uploaded above.I'm still convinced it is Bf 109 with DB605AS.As far as Willi Reschke's memory is concerned - it occured so many years ago.But he should know the best.


----------



## seesul (Aug 11, 2007)

Wurger said:


> Hi,
> I think, non of these pics are a photomontage.Unfortunately people in the pics covered very important parts of the plane for proper ID.The third pic is better one 'cos we can see the front part of the plane.But two girls covered its number and as a result we cannot be sure it is the same plane like this in shots uploaded above.I'm still convinced it is Bf 109 with DB605AS.As far as Willi Reschke's memory is concerned - it occured so many years ago.But he should know the best.



Yeah, you´re absolutely right. I´ve seen 4 pics of this machine but have only 3 available. 4th picture is in the book ''Mustangy nad Protektoratem'' (Mustangs over Protectorate) written by Jiri Rajlich. And this is very nice shot as it was taken from the front left side and if I´m not wrong the engine cowling is complete to see there. I´ll try to get it somewhere...
But anyway, both these girls are from Banov (crash landing site) and that girl on the left is still alive. This pic comes from her... And only Willi Reschke´s machine crash landed near Banov during WWII...

btw where you´re from? Have good friends in Krakow and Wroclav
btw2 the parents of my American friend Joe Owsianik that is mentioned in my siggy come from Krakow. They moved to New Jersey in 1889 and he was born there. He´s going to visit me in term from 23/8 till 3/9. He wanted to meet Willi Reschke in our town but Willi Reschke doesn´t want to make such a long trip anymore... But anyway, I´m really very happy that we could have Willi Reschke on visit last year. What a experience!


----------



## Wurger (Aug 11, 2007)

Ahoj Roman,

''Mustangy nad Protektoratem'' I haven't had any opportunity to read the book so far.If it's possible try to upload the pic from the book,plaese.Perhaps this pic will make it clear.

BTW. Certainly I'm from Poland.I've been living on the South of Poland near Polish-Czech borderline for many years.Ostrava and Karvina were so close.Now I'm living on the North of my country.To be honest my ancestors came from Czech ( Tabor town ) and moved to Poland in 15 th century.My family lived in Wroclav for almost 200 years.And of course ,I have friend both in Cracov and Wroclav.My brother lives in Opole.Simply, this area it is my native one.Nice to meet another Polish-Czech guy.

zdravim moc,
Wojtek


----------



## Konigstiger205 (Aug 11, 2007)

The one with the 2 girls is definitely a g6/as and the first 2 pictures you can't really tell.


----------



## seesul (Aug 12, 2007)

To Wurger:
Thanks for your prompty answer! It´s a pity you don´t live near the Czech/Polish border anymore...

To Königstiger:
my friend says it´s G-14AS. If you can read German, look at this:

1)Kinnbeule
2)Bsk 16
3)Antenmast des FuG 16 ZY unter der linken Tragfläche

1 und 3 ist typische für G-14/AS, nicht für G-6/AS oder G-6/ASy. Ersten GMaschinen der G-14/AS reihe erhielt Jagdwaffe seit August 1944(z.B. II./JG 27-Quelle: Jochen Prien : Chronik des II/JG27 S. 471,455, II./JG 53-Quelle: J.Prien/P.Rodeike:messerschmitt Bf 109 F,G,K Series,S.148,149

Or, shall I translate it? Anyway, thanks for your answer.


----------



## Konigstiger205 (Aug 12, 2007)

Thanks I may have jumped to conclusion to soon but I can't speak german although my nick is indeed german.


----------



## Wurger (Aug 12, 2007)

seesul said:


> To Wurger:
> Thanks for your prompty answer! It´s a pity you don´t live near the Czech/Polish border anymore....



Yeap,I could have some beers.Do you like it, don't you.



seesul said:


> To Königstiger:
> my friend says it´s G-14AS. If you can read German, look at this:
> 
> 1)Kinnbeule
> ...



I think it is possible but the G6AS,G10AS and G14AS were very similar one to another.Looking at the pictures I've got the impression it could be even later G5AS.For sure, it is early one of the mentioned versions.There aren't visible the big oblong bugles over the wheel wells what are typical for 660x190 main wheels of the later main landing gears.There is visible the small part of this in the second pic only and it is very hard to tell something on that.It looks like the small one for me, I mean for the 660x160 wheels.The tail wheel looks also small with a short gear.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## seesul (Aug 12, 2007)

Thank you Wojtek!

Great! Which kind of graphic programm do you use?
Yes, you are right, all these versions are very similar but I can´t discuss about each version as I´m not a Bf-expert... Will try to get that picture that is in the Jiri Rajlich´s book.

Sure, I like a beer. It´s my water in fact 

Roman


----------



## Erich (Aug 12, 2007)

I'm here for about 5 minutes. Reschkes mount is a G-6 not an AS version, there were no G-10's available in August of 44 to Reich defense the G-14's and AS version were in plae but not for the diminished JG 302 as I have mentioned several times, the unit was dissolving for many pilots to reform up JG 301 for the defense of the homeland, so please friends quit this and stop beating yourselves up ! 8) 

machs gut !

E ~


----------



## seesul (Aug 12, 2007)

Erich said:


> I'm here for about 5 minutes. Reschkes mount is a G-6 not an AS version, there were no G-10's available in August of 44 to Reich defense the G-14's and AS version were in plae but not for the diminished JG 302 as I have mentioned several times, the unit was dissolving for many pilots to reform up JG 301 for the defense of the homeland, so please friends quit this and stop beating yourselves up ! 8)
> 
> machs gut !
> 
> E ~



O.K. Erich,

but you are following your records and written material you have and logically you´re right as well but the pictures show another version. At least *engine cowling doesn´t correspondent to usual G-6 version*. *Even Willi Reschke said he believes this picture is a photomounting*. Why? So there´s something strange...
Let us playing8) , I´ll look for another picture yet...

Roman


----------



## Erich (Aug 12, 2007)

question why would Willi feel his pic of the G-6 ~ G-6/AS have been played with ?

Wurger points out some interesting pic points but they are also part of the very late G-6 series. JG 302 logs according to credence, affiliated German document records shows no G-10's or G-14's and sub types given to the unit before disolvemnet

~ on it goes, Reschkes flugbuch would not indicate an AS subtype but only G-6 in my understnading of viewing some in the past


----------



## seesul (Aug 12, 2007)

Erich said:


> question why would Willi feel his pic of the G-6 ~ G-6/AS have been played with ?
> 
> Wurger points out some interesting pic points but they are also part of the very late G-6 series. JG 302 logs according to credence, affiliated German document records shows no G-10's or G-14's and sub types given to the unit before disolvemnet
> 
> ~ on it goes, Reschkes flugbuch would not indicate an AS subtype but only G-6 in my understnading of viewing some in the past



Good question Erich,

Because for him the machine on the picture is not a G-6 version, but his records says pure G-6. So that´s why he told me this is a photomounting. He just can´t belive that his machine should be something else than pure G-6...but the engine cowling is not usual for G-6 version...

Erich- my question to you- did the late G-6 have a big engine cowling, even with the DB605AM engine? If so, this could explain this discussion. I repeat, I´m not a Bf-expert.


----------



## Wurger (Aug 12, 2007)

I'm also not a Bf-expert and I think Erich is right especially he is an expert at these things.
But the pics are very interesting and you Erich have to admit it.
I've found another interesting info on G-10 version. G-10 elevators were equipped with double trim tabs but G-6 or G-14 didn't.In the third pic ( I've marked it with yellow circle in my pic) we can clearly see only a single trim tab.So if the info is true it means the Bf is not G-10.What do you think?


----------



## seesul (Aug 12, 2007)

Wurger said:


> I'm also not a Bf-expert and I think Erich is right especially he is an expert at these things.
> But the pics are very interesting and you Erich have to admit it.
> I've found another interesting info on G-10 version. G-10 elevators were equipped with double trim tabs but G-6 or G-14 didn't.In the third pic ( I've marked it with yellow circle in my pic) we can clearly see only a single trim tab.So if the info is true it means the Bf is not G-10.What do you think?



Wurger,

don´t worry, Erich is a very good friend of mine and we are not fighting. I know he´s one of the best here.
But back to Willi Reschke´s machine- as I said, Willi says, he flew G-6 on August 29th 1944. But I sent him this photo and then I called him and was told, that this is not his machine as it is photomontage. But this is not and I already told why in this discussion.
So could someone tell me, what was the different between early and late G-6 version? I´d say tail (rudder),canopy, etc. BUT IS IT POSSIBLE, that the LATE VERSION HAD THE BIG ENGINE COWLING even with the DB605AM engine mounted?

Thanks


----------



## Erich (Aug 12, 2007)

hey guys I have a small note in French from a friend back in the 1990's that says in September of 44 the I./Jg 302 was the only gruppe of JG 302 left, the Stab, II. and III./Jg 302 had disbanded in June of 44. I. gruppe flew the G-6 till September 44's end before the transfer of pilots and the staffels formed the new Fw 190A-8 and A-8/R2 equipped III./JG 301 which became the Schwere Staffel of JG 301 tasked almost solely with attacking US heavy bombers from the rear in series of 4-5 aircraft in a wedge attack.

E ~


----------



## seesul (Aug 13, 2007)

I´m sorry now that I said whose machine it is.
I should better only show the picture and ask for the version and let it run as a technical request...8) 
It would be interresting to see the answers...
My fault, next time guys

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## seesul (Aug 14, 2007)

Hi Chris,

this is what you have written:
_I might just missunderstanding you but by "Beulen" do you mean the bulges that are the Bf 109G varients.

Because if you are, there are bulges present on this Bf 109G in the picture. I have circled them in red._

I don´t think the area you have circled is a bulge because in the middle there´s a hole for the hand crank (engine start). Normal G-6 version and even late version has a bulge and this hole is beside this bulge (in front of this bulge). So try to compare these two pics attached. One of them is that one that you´ve posted and the second one shows a G-6 version (downloaded from Wikipedia). On my opinion it is AS version. But sure I can be wrong...
I´ve circled the holes in yellow.
Sorry Erich, I can get no sleep due to this discussion 
What´s your opinion?


----------



## Wurger (Aug 14, 2007)

Hi Roman,

From the beginning it didn't matter for me to whom the aircraft belonged to.I've got the impression that you are interested in the type of the plane but not in the "owner".Therefore I've tried to help as much as it was possible.Going through some book about BF 109G versions I've noticed some similarities to the plane in your pic.As you said these were of the cockpit conopy ,the fin and rudder.Looking at the pics I have to state that the Bf 109 was equipped with all-metal taller fin and rudder ,Earla-haube conopy and a tail wheel on the short gear,typical for later G-6.If the three pics you uploaded present the same a/c it had to be one with a small bulges on over the wheel wells ( seen in the second shot), typical for G-6 version and early G-10/G-14)All later G-10/14 had the big oblong bulges.Now, the engine cowling - G-6 with DB605A engine had the very charakteristic bulges on the fuselage for the MG 131s,in the third pic it is seen that it didn't had these ( from this view these should be clearly visible).It suggests the AS engine.Besides the area of early G-6( with the MGs bulges - uploaded pic) looked different fom the one of G-6AS I've found info that many damaged standard G-6s were converted into G-6AS version.It seems that the G-10AS looked at the area also different( uploaded pic).So,taking all the infos in to consideration I can state that the Bf 109 in these pic can be G-6AS later version or G-14AS early one.This in my opinion.Besides,I haven't found any info on the DB605 mounted with the cowling of DB605AS so far.

regards,
Wojtek


----------



## Erich (Aug 14, 2007)

well due to the circumstances the pic is in regard terrible, you or anyone else cannot rule out the bulges neither can we specifically confirm it is an AS G-6. Lets make it perfectly clear this is Reschkes craft and he is in I./JG 302 a unit that never acquired the G-14 anything or G-10, if anything his a/c in this case could be a mock up of G-6 and AS parts, the G-6/AS never went into full production as a separate complete unit it was a rehash of other parts to make a smoother running unit and with additional MW 50 injection a redesigned engine cowling. From what I also understand from Bf 109G and K experten there was never a G-10AS version just the G-10.


----------



## seesul (Aug 15, 2007)

Wurger said:


> Hi Roman,
> 
> From the beginning it didn't matter for me to whom the aircraft belonged to.I've got the impression that you are interested in the type of the plane but not in the "owner".Therefore I've tried to help as much as it was possible.Going through some book about BF 109G versions I've noticed some similarities to the plane in your pic.As you said these were of the cockpit conopy ,the fin and rudder.Looking at the pics I have to state that the Bf 109 was equipped with all-metal taller fin and rudder ,Earla-haube conopy and a tail wheel on the short gear,typical for later G-6.If the three pics you uploaded present the same a/c it had to be one with a small bulges on over the wheel wells ( seen in the second shot), typical for G-6 version and early G-10/G-14)All later G-10/14 had the big oblong bulges.Now, the engine cowling - G-6 with DB605A engine had the very charakteristic bulges on the fuselage for the MG 131s,in the third pic it is seen that it didn't had these ( from this view these should be clearly visible).It suggests the AS engine.Besides the area of early G-6( with the MGs bulges - uploaded pic) looked different fom the one of G-6AS I've found info that many damaged standard G-6s were converted into G-6AS version.It seems that the G-10AS looked at the area also different( uploaded pic).So,taking all the infos in to consideration I can state that the Bf 109 in these pic can be G-6AS later version or G-14AS early one.This in my opinion.Besides,I haven't found any info on the DB605 mounted with the cowling of DB605AS so far.
> 
> ...



Thank you Wojtek,
your opinion is the same like mine... as you said- many standart G-6 were converted into G-6AS version. I got the same info on one German forum. After this conversion the Wnr. stayed the same, so these machines were G-6 on paper but in fact G-6AS.
One German guy, that is an DB6... engine expert told me that it´s impossible to have the machine with the big engine cowling (AS version) with the DB605A (AM) engine. There´s too many this to be modified and it was in fact impossible under field conditions.
Anyway, I sent these pics to one Czech guy, that is one of the best on Bf´s identifications and will post his result as soon as I get it. He´s first sight impression is AS version...

bye


----------



## Kuba (Sep 16, 2007)

Dear All.

This Gustav is a AS version, G-6/AS is my guess.
Why?

There are no bulges for MG 131 belt links chutes but a streamlined fairing (seen on photos, look carefully), there is no MW filler point so G-14/AS it can't be.
The cold start device cover is in lower position, so it must be AS engine (despite there were no G-10 in august of 1944).
Lower tailwheel as well as characteristic rudder and fuselage spine paint job pattern makes me try to identify manufacturer as Mtt. Regensburg.
It fits the main form of those machines 

There were NO G-10/AS version. If any Gustav flew in this configuration it was no more than field repair where AS engine was mounted instead D.
There are Erla built G-14/AS and G-10 often misidentified as G-10/AS.

all the best!
Kuba


----------



## seesul (Sep 16, 2007)

Kuba,

thank you for your opinion. Look at the LBB « Luftwaffe Bullet Board » Forum zur deutschen Luftfahrtgeschichte


----------



## Erich (Sep 16, 2007)

well my friend I still feel it is a G-6. the only way you will ever find out is if you Ask Willi when and ever he used his MW 50 injection and if was in combat with Mustangs in this a/c you can well bet he did..........

E


----------



## Wurger (Sep 16, 2007)

I can see the discussion has been going on.
I agree with you Erich it is G-6 in the pics undoubtedly.The only problem is if the a/c was powered by standard DB engine or AS one.As far as the "owner" of the plane is concerned I'm not convinced if it is Willi Reschke's one,especially he doesn't confirm it at all.Unless I didn't understand some statements there.


----------



## seesul (Sep 16, 2007)

Hi ya all,

welcome back... All the historians say it´s a G-6. 3 weeks ago I met Willi Reschke and he said that JG302 had only used G-6´s and that this pictures are photo mounting. When I told him that I got these pictures from eye witnesses Willi started to think about it...
But anyway- all the technicians- German and Czech, say, it´s either G-6/AS or G-14AS. I´ve sent these pictures to one of the best Bf- specialist in our country- Mr. Tomas Poruba, and his opinion is G-14AS or G-6AS. I´ll try to translate his letter, will ask him for a permission and put it here. But it won´t be easy for me- too much technical terms 

Roman


----------



## Erich (Sep 16, 2007)

even if it was an AS it could not be a G-14 as Willi's gruppe disbanded before they ever received G-14's, I've said this before and I will say it again. The disbandonment of the gruppe led to the Fw 190A-8 approval of the "new" III. Schwere/JG 301 in the early fall of 1944


----------



## Kuba (Sep 16, 2007)

I do not know, what I did wrong in my first post, hope nothing really scary. 

Why not standard G-6? I thought it's clear. Streamlined fairing and engine covers for a larger supercharger. 
AS engine, as seen by cold start device in lower position.
Any doubts here? 
Airframe with larger covers fitted with 605 A engine?


Then, MW-Anlage.
Those shots are too blury to be sure, but I think there is no battery cover behind head armour in cockpit. No filler for rear tank. No MW Anlage, I bet 
That eliminates G-14/AS.

Did Mr. Willi Reschke used MW-Anlage or Notleistung, also a emergency power?
Did he describe Methanol-Wasser injection in white 6 beyond any doubts or he describes emergency power, Erich?

I think it is G-6 too. But DB 605 AS powered one. Bf 109 G-6/AS.


I can only gues by careful study of those photos. Blury, not well scanned photos. 


bye
Kuba


----------



## seesul (Sep 16, 2007)

Erich said:


> even if it was an AS it could not be a G-14 as Willi's gruppe disbanded before they ever received G-14's, I've said this before and I will say it again. The disbandonment of the gruppe led to the Fw 190A-8 approval of the "new" III. Schwere/JG 301 in the early fall of 1944


+

You´re right Erich, Aug. 29th was Willi´s (and JG302 as well) last flight in Bf109.
But finally I can feel in your words at least 0.001% chance of AS version 

btw- there was a reunion of American and German pilots in Jan Zdiarsky´s museum on this weekend. Will let you know more this week.
I got a lot of nice pics from his museum that I´d like to share but have to ask Jan for his permission...


----------



## seesul (Sep 16, 2007)

Kuba said:


> I do not know, what I did wrong in my first post, hope nothing really scary.
> 
> Why not standard G-6? I thought it's clear. Streamlined fairing and engine covers for a larger supercharger.
> AS engine, as seen by cold start device in lower position.
> ...



Kuba,

I agree with you. You know it´s strange- no one official documents speaks about the AS version in JG302 .
That´s why we all fight now. But these pics show something else, and no one can tell me it´s a photo mounting. I spent a lot of time on discovering these pics, I know the eye witnesses in person and I also know, that there are some 2-3 pictures more, but no one knows, where they are as they were hidding for more than 40 years. I wish I could show them... But we have to wait.
I repeat, I´m not a Bf expert, but I see a AS engine cowling on this machine.


----------



## seesul (Sep 16, 2007)

Kuba said:


> I
> 
> Did Mr. Willi Reschke used MW-Anlage or Notleistung, also a emergency power?
> Did he describe Methanol-Wasser injection in white 6 beyond any doubts or he describes emergency power, Erich?
> ...



Kuba,

I asked Willi this question- *Willi have never used an emergency power on Bf,Fw and Ta. Never.*
And to the pics quality- it´s not a problem of scanning, the problem is a quality of the original pictures. During WW2 was usual to produce a pictures in size 5x3 cm, so very small... I´ll try to get this original picture once more again and scan it in higher resolution, with the result size of 3-10 MB. Let´s see. This is the only thing I can do, but it will take at least 2-3 weeks.


----------



## Kuba (Sep 16, 2007)

Dear Roman,

I love Bf 109 from technical point of view and do not feel good in documents, unit looses and so on. So I really like to share my oppinions with other enthusiast. Always good to learn more about that aircraft.

Thank You and good luck in Your research!

Kuba


----------



## Kuba (Sep 16, 2007)

seesul said:


> I asked Willi this question- *Willi have never used an emergency power on Bf,Fw and Ta. Never.*



Does it mean, he never used MW either and we can support the hypothesis that white 6 wasn't equipped with MW-Anlage?


----------



## seesul (Sep 16, 2007)

Kuba said:


> Does it mean, he never used MW either and we can support the hypothesis that white 6 wasn't equipped with MW-Anlage?



...hard to say Kuba. What I understood is that he never used it even though he had this equipment available. Said in general, not regarding "white 6".


----------



## seesul (Sep 16, 2007)

Kuba said:


> Dear Roman,
> 
> I love Bf 109 from technical point of view and do not feel good in documents, unit looses and so on. So I really like to share my oppinions with other enthusiast. Always good to learn more about that aircraft.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I absolutely agree! That´s why I showed these pictures as I just wanted to be sure, what is this version for, as lot of my friends told me that this is no G-6, but G-6AS version- and you can see, what happened. Even on that mentioned German forum


----------



## A4K (Mar 19, 2008)

Just looking at it quickly Roman, and without reading any of the comments yet, it appears to have the type 8-009.320 rudder (that is, with large adjustable Flettner trim tab and two smaller ground adjusted tabs) and nose bulges a little ahead of and below the front exhaust stack that I would asociate with a standard Bf 109G-10. 
Will have a look around though and will read you guys' comments too when I can, to see if there's evidence to the contrary.


----------



## Erich (Mar 19, 2008)

A4K yes you need to read the whole thread............the unit was disbanded before the G-10 even was available


----------



## seesul (Mar 19, 2008)

OOOPS,
A4K, you´re killing Erich with G-10, but thank you very much for your 1st opinion. Read it all please when you have a time and tell me what´s that.
You got 2 choices- either G-6 late or G-6/AS...
THX again m8


----------



## phoenix7187 (Mar 19, 2008)

Well I'll give my 2 cents. It's without a doubt not a G-10,K-4, or G-14/AS. the visable features rule these options out without a doubt. This mechine is either a early G-14 or a late G-6. As these two variants are very similer it would be very difficult to differ them with these photos. 

With the upper cowling gun case buldges, no sign of lower cowling buldges, and what appears to the standered cord prop (VDM 12087) this is highly unlikely to have the AS or ASM power plant. 

Interesting to note is the knock out on the erla hood canopy indcates this was not original to this 109. also the postion of the DF loop and Fug antenna look to be field installed add on's. it has the "tall tail" but small trim tabs, usually seen on G-6's (but not always). My thought on this is it's a late version standered G-6, nothing more as far as I can see.


----------



## phoenix7187 (Mar 19, 2008)

I found this in one of my books. It could be a G-14 I my guess is Late version G-6.


----------



## seesul (Mar 20, 2008)

Thank you Phoenix for your opinion!
Do you really think this machine has a G-6 typical bulges? If so, why there´s a hole for a cold start device in the middle of the bulge, when it should be in front of the bulge? I think there´s no bulge, but just my opinion...
Damn, I wish I could have better pics but this is what I have. Gotta look for another pics yet, if available...


----------



## A4K (Mar 20, 2008)

Oh, that puts a damper on my comment..!!

What about the rudder though? Is it possible they tested the design on a G-6 already?

If G-6 (late) and G-6/AS are the only two options, then it's an AS, but I'd like to read the comments that exclude it from being a G-14/AS before giving my final opinion.


----------



## seesul (Mar 20, 2008)

A4K said:


> Oh, that puts a damper on my comment..!!
> 
> What about the rudder though? Is it possible they tested the design on a G-6 already?
> 
> If G-6 (late) and G-6/AS are the only two options, then it's an AS, but I'd like to read the comments that exclude it from being a G-14/AS before giving my final opinion.



Everything´s possible...a good friend of mine that is crazy for Bf´s and is able to tell you everything about the version, production year and factory often even without his his notes says it´s G-14/AS.
O.K. now I ask my question in another way- without knowing the pilot, the unit, the year- 

*IS IT USUAL DB605 ENGINE WITH BULGES ON THE ENGINE COVER OR IS IT DB605AS?*


----------



## A4K (Mar 20, 2008)

The redesigned large-bulged cowlings are (to my knowledge) only associated with DB 605AS engines (without bulges on the lower nose just aft of the prop) and DB 605D engines (with bulges).


----------



## seesul (Mar 20, 2008)

A4K said:


> The redesigned large-bulged cowlings are (to my knowledge) only associated with DB 605AS engines (without bulges on the lower nose just aft of the prop) and DB 605D engines (with bulges).



But back to my question- that machine on the pics is normal version or AS version? I repeat- I can´t see any bulges and even if someone thinks that this area in the red circle is a bulge, why there´s a hole for a cold start in the middle of the 'bulge'?
So my opinion is AS version...


----------



## Erich (Mar 20, 2008)

if the photo was more Clear Roman then we could determine and that is the brunt of the story back to page 1 either a late term G-6 or an AS version of the G-6. Willis gruppe was disbanded and absorbed by JG 301 before the issuance of any G-14, G-14/AS


----------



## phoenix7187 (Mar 20, 2008)

I struggled with that point seesul. in the one pic it has an outline of that looks like the buldges are there and in others they don't. the close up is just too fuzzy to make it out. I made my guess that it was not an AS powered due to the fact that too me the prop looks like the standered prop. Now of course due to the landing the prop is bent like a pretzel so I now think I may be worng in my first post. 

I looking at AS powered G-6's and standerd G-6's and noticed a few things. 
I forgot the refined cowling does buldge out and I think this is what we are seeing. the cowling hood seal does not bloat out like those of a G-6 with those large blisters. Second after looking to the 2 props, I'm not sure now I can tell which air screw that is all twisted up like that. ( If we had a good prop it would also tell us which power plant this bird had).

I'm now thinking it maybe an G-6/AS. But like erich said those poor quality photos just don't make it easy. usually when I try to ID something like this I also go with the odds. Odds are is a standered G-6. But you never know. Sorry I can be of more help. I know not much help.


----------



## Njaco (Mar 21, 2008)

Just to throw fuel on the fire. Is it possible to put a AS cowling on a standard version? What I mean is, with so much going on and parts being in short supply, is it possible they could have taken a cowling from an AS plane and placed it on a normal version just to have a cowling and get it back in the air?


----------



## seesul (Mar 21, 2008)

Njaco said:


> Just to throw fuel on the fire. Is it possible to put a AS cowling on a standard version? What I mean is, with so much going on and parts being in short supply, is it possible they could have taken a cowling from an AS plane and placed it on a normal version just to have a cowling and get it back in the air?



Hi Njaco,
I had the same idea like you and asked one German expert for that few months ago on one German forum and he said that '' it´s impossible to have the machine with the big engine cowling (AS version) with the DB605A (AM) engine. There´s too many things to be modified and it was in fact impossible under field conditions''. You can see these words on page # 2 of this thread...
And here´s a link to that mentioned discussion on German forum LBB « Luftwaffe Bullet Board » Forum zur deutschen Luftfahrtgeschichte , sorry, in German...


----------



## A4K (Mar 21, 2008)

Yep, good comment Roman. The more I read up on them, the more possibilities there are...starting to get confusing, between field rüstsaetze, factory modifications during production, and new machines fitted with old items for various reasons....


----------



## seesul (Mar 21, 2008)

A4K said:


> Yep, good comment Roman. The more I read up on them, the more possibilities there are...starting to get confusing, between field rüstsaetze, factory modifications during production, and new machines fitted with old items for various reasons....


  what a mystery plane!
From time to time I drive tru Banov (small village where Willi crash landed) and there´s a former mayor who gave us all those pics. Next time (hope in two weeks) I gotta stop there and ask him if he has found another pics. I´ve promised him a copy of DVD with Willi taken 2 years ago, when Willi visited us here... So before I go there, I gotta burn it out...


----------



## Njaco (Mar 21, 2008)

Thanks Roman, I try to learn from threads like this but with my limited knowledge I feel I'm in the zoo looking out the cage at everyone passing by!  It was just a thought. THX!


----------



## seesul (Mar 21, 2008)

Njaco said:


> Thanks Roman, I try to learn from threads like this but with my limited knowledge I feel I'm in the zoo looking out the cage at everyone passing by!  It was just a thought. THX!



 like me, but that´s why we´re here, to learn something new...
But as you can see also the experts have different opinions...I´ll try to do my best in order to find better pics...


----------



## rochie (Aug 26, 2020)

Just hoping to bump this thread after talking with Roman about it in hope of any new thoughts on which version of the Bf 109 G this could be.

Planning building this subject.

My own view is this could be either a G-6 A/S or G-14 A/S more likely a G-6 A/S given the time frame and Reschke's insistence it was a G-6.

Still got to look through my books on the Bf 109 yet to look for the differences.

Your thoughts and opinions are much appreciated.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------

