# Best AA weapon



## elmilitaro (May 16, 2005)

What do ya say was the best AA weapon of WWII. To me it was that shell the U.S. invented that could be fired out of any artillery piece like the 75 and above. It contained a radio in it, it would explode when it waves were close to the aircraft not on but close causing maximum damage.


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## mosquitoman (May 16, 2005)

the German 88, by far the best AA gun


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## plan_D (May 16, 2005)

I disagree. The FlaK 18 36(37) 88mm was a good overall weapon with many uses but as an AA platform it was similar to all other heavy AA weapons. 

I think the Bofors 40mm was the best because it was a fast firing and effective low to medium altitude AA cannon. 

The KugelBlitz would have been the best but that never got put into production.


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## Erich (May 17, 2005)

don't forget the incredible fast firing 2cm Flakvierling used in a marriade of roles in all the theaters with the Wehrmacht and W-SS.


view from the Prinz Eugen now in US hands.....


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## BombTaxi (May 18, 2005)

This question is a case of horses for courses. As a low altitude weapon, the title undoubtedley goes to the FlakVierling. For medium alt, I would say the 40mm Bofors, and for heavy guns, the US 5" piece mounted on BBs, CVs and cruisers. Not only did it contain more fragmentation material than the 88, but by the later stages of the war it was proximity fused, making even a near miss fatal.


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## Erich (May 19, 2005)

what ! this isn't even considered ?  128mm twins


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 19, 2005)

a nightmaire for any bomber crews.......


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## plan_D (May 19, 2005)

The British had twin 3.7 inch - automatic loading as well, I am informed.


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## trackend (May 19, 2005)

Best anti aircraft weapon to my way of thinking was (for low level ) the Vickers multi barrelled PomPom. 1000 rounds per minute of 40mm cannon shells and (for high level ) the 88mm flak although the 3.7inch AA gun did some good work as well
_(all images are from my personel collection)_


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 21, 2005)

The only reason I would go with the 88 is because of its versatility. It was not only used as a Flak gun but as an anti tank and even anti shipping. But I am aware that there were better Flak systems out there.


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## Glider (Jun 21, 2005)

For a heavy AA gun it had to be the American 5in L38. It had a good arc of fire, the proximity fuse, a good rate of fire, decent anti ship shell and it didn't weigh that much. Important as ships tended to get top heavy which is why most USA destroyers lost most of their torpedo's.

Light AA gun the British twin 40mm mounted on a hazelmere mounting. The gun was good, the mounting in some case gyro stabalised and it could be aimed automatically using the radar making it deadly.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 21, 2005)

Yes that was a good one, the 40mm and for the heavy I do like the 128s.


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## CharlesBronson (Jun 26, 2005)

B-24 going down after took a direct 88 mm hit, the Davis wing simply collapsed.


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## trackend (Jun 26, 2005)

Found an 88 pic a flash eliminator would be handy


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 26, 2005)




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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 27, 2005)

Yeah but who cares about the flash when you are trying to kill bombers.


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 27, 2005)

Epileptics.


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## CharlesBronson (Jun 27, 2005)

Deploying and shooting the 8,8 cm Flak 18.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 28, 2005)

Good video. I liked the footage of the Afrika Korps using them as an anti tank weapon in N. Afrika.


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## trackend (Jul 2, 2005)

Here's a rare one The Green Mace it only ever reached prototype as by the time all the teething problems had been ironed out it was 1956 and the missile was taking over for AA duties designed in WW2 it eventually achieved a rate of fire of 75 rounds per minute. 
Not bad for a 5inch weapon  .(biggest draw back it weighed 25 tons)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 3, 2005)

does sound impressive though.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 3, 2005)

Yes it does. To bad it took so long to get it operational.


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## Erich (Jul 3, 2005)

Flak 37 Zwilling used in limited quantities on the big Berlin Flaktürme and on the ground against the Soviets, etc.......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 3, 2005)

Those rounds were all put together and loaded in large numbers of around 10 or so correct so that it did not needed to be loaded every shot correct.


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## plan_D (Jul 3, 2005)

That would have been awesome devestation, especially against infantry! The Vierling 20 mm used to rip infantry to pieces. I have heard in 3 hours one Wirbelwind killed [estimated] 80 U.S soldiers during the advance in the hedgerows. I don't know if that's true...but I think it'd be possible. 

If they'd have got that 37 mm up to Vierling....<shudder>


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## Erich (Jul 3, 2005)

it appears in this staged shot to have at least two clips side by side already, set to go


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 3, 2005)

That is what it seemed like.


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## plan_D (Jul 3, 2005)

Here's some German AA shots I have, the name of the file is what it is...so I don't need to tell you.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 4, 2005)

Nice pics. I really like the desert 88.


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## Erich (Jul 4, 2005)

Did you know that the Finns made use of the 88mm as standard AT and artillery well after the war ? They actually still have several quite preserved and in working condition....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 4, 2005)

Does anyone know of anyone still using them.There are countries in the world that are still using some of the old weapons.


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## Glider (Jul 4, 2005)

The wackiest AA gun I ever saw was the 6in on HMS Tiger. On an AA shoot each barrel could fire 30 rds/min although this was normally kept down the 15 rds/min due to barrel wear. In 1973 I saw one of these score a direct hit on the target being towed by a Canberra. 
The 3in turret was almost as much fun as she fired 90rds/min per barrel. The vibration was incredible. Our mess was around the A turret trunk and when we went back after the shoot everything thrown around with lockers burst open and any china broken.
This was the supposed to be the last voyage of the ship and as it was the last 6in armed ship in the fleet, the Captain upped the ROF to the maximum. Later we found that she was to be kept in service for another couple of years. We didn't want to think about the state of the barrels.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 4, 2005)

My friend who is in the Navy told me about the Phalanx one time and how he watched one take out a drown. He said it was like a loud buzz and you just saw the drone dissintigrate. I bet it was quite impressive.


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## trackend (Jul 4, 2005)

I have just bought a book on AA weapons and I think im going to change my mind on the best ones, it does look like the US developed some very impressive shooters. I bet that was fun on your mess deck glider with that 6inch banging away must have made yer teeth rattle.
I think the Phlanx is a brillliant piece of kit Adler, not so nice if you're on the recieving end though. I've heard that it can hit a shell in flight any one know if this has been proved?.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 5, 2005)

i know about the Phalanx, she can destroy two missiles in under a couple of seconds, even if they're at different ranges, and not only does she use her own radar to track incoming missiles (and i suppose this'd work for shells), but she also uses her radar to track the bullet's she's fired, and so it's unbelievably accurate, or atleast i think she does......


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## Glider (Jul 5, 2005)

Its an interesting point that the only missile to shoot down another missile in actual combat was a Sea Dart, which wasn't designed to be an anti missile weapon.
The Seawolf has shot down a cannon shell a number of times in sales drives. Its almost its party piece.


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## plan_D (Jul 5, 2005)

Wouldn't you consider a war - "actual combat" - being that the Patriots during the Gulf and Iraq wars did shoot down many Scuds.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 6, 2005)

Yeap they sure did. My father has some pictures of whats left of a Scud that got shot down by a Patriot and landed in there Camp in the Saudi Desert.


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## Glider (Jul 6, 2005)

Your correct. I was thinking of surface to surface sea skimming missiles the type which phalanx's and other point defence sytems are designed to defend against.
My mistake.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 6, 2005)

No problem


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 8, 2005)

and phalanx isn't a missile system, it's a rotary cannon.......


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## Glider (Jul 8, 2005)

A 20mm no less, but the point was that its a point defence system which one of the earlier postings thought could hit a cannon shell. 
I don't know if it can or not but I do know that the Seawolf can. 
This was a major factor in the Falklands as the Argentine pilots knew that as well. It doesn't do your morale much good if your attacking a ship which may have a seawolf and in the back of your mind there's a voice saying, if it can hit a cannon shell whats the chances of it missing a plane?


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## Glider (Jul 8, 2005)

One addendum to my last posting is that there was a lot of credit given to the Argentine Airforce by the Navy for pressing their attacks in despite their losses and their knowledge of the defences. This credit was fully deserved.


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## trackend (Jul 8, 2005)

Agreed Glider of the three services I think the AAF put up a very good show no lack of guts there.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 8, 2005)

but the phalanx isn't used against planes, that's what the harriers were for


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## plan_D (Jul 8, 2005)

Yes, the Argentine Air Force pressed on with grievous losses - credit to the crews but no credit to the Command. It was a dying war for them as soon as Thatcher said we would take the islands back.


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## CharlesBronson (Jul 8, 2005)

Funny thing, in simulated combats before the war, the frenchs with his Mirage IIIE and earlys M-2000 seems very superior to the Sea Harrier.

But in the practice the abilities of the Harrier FRS.1 for the Viffing and the superior AIM-9L made it a deadly combination.

Back on topic:

British 40 mm in action.


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## CharlesBronson (Jul 9, 2005)

*Glider wrote*


> One addendum to my last posting is that there was a lot of credit given to the Argentine Airforce by the Navy for pressing their attacks in despite their losses and their knowledge of the defences. This credit was fully deserved.



Sorry I could not resist, here a pic of british AAA shooting at A-4Bs from Grupo 5 attacking HMS Coventry and HMS Broadsword, 25th may 1982.


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## Glider (Jul 9, 2005)

Charles. I don't know if you know the story behind that incident. During the Falklands the Seawolf was still being introduced into service and wasn't a 'mature' weapon system. To help with any technical problems some of the manufacturers technical people were given commisions and went to sea with the RN to help with any technical issues that might occur.
In this incident the missiles locked onto the two targets some distance out but the Seawolf only has a short range and the crew waited for the A4's to get into range. 
The A4's were obviously ducking and diving and at one point they passed direectly behind each other. For some reason this hadn't been tested and when this happened the Seawolf guidance system crashed. Suddenly the ship went from a position of being very confident to being almost defencless its main defence being one ex WW2 20mm plus a few GPMG's.
The technical expert was doing his damndest to get the system going again and all he could hear in the silence of the control room was a crew member saying, 15 miles and closing, 12 miles and closing, 10 miles and closing, 8 miles and closing, 6 miles and closing. He could feel everyone looking at him and no one could help. In the end at the last moment he got the system free to fire under local control which must have had some impact as the planes missed the ship and the missiles missed the planes.
Honours were even but thats what I call pressure.
No doubt the story has grown over time but there is no doubt that the lock on, planes crossing, system crashing and firing at the last moment did occur.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 9, 2005)

> Funny thing, in simulated combats before the war, the frenchs with his Mirage IIIE and earlys M-2000 seems very superior to the Sea Harrier



i've always read the exact opposite actually??


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## CharlesBronson (Jul 9, 2005)

> The A4's were obviously ducking and diving and at one point they passed direectly behind each other. For some reason this hadn't been tested and when this happened the Seawolf guidance system crashed. Suddenly the ship went from a position of being very confident to being almost defencless its main defence being one ex WW2 20mm plus a few GPMG's.



Yes, and other problem for the HMS Broadsword was the HMS Coventry wich crossed his line of fire when the gunners where aiming manually the Seawolf guidance sistem. C. Carballo and M. Rinke had a lucky strike in this aspect.



> all he could hear in the silence of the control room was a crew member saying, 15 miles and closing, 12 miles and closing, 10 miles and closing, 8 miles and closing, 6 miles and closing.



I ve listen the actual tape from the battlestations in a National Geographic TV program, is quite impressive.


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## Glider (Jul 9, 2005)

I wish I could hear that tape. With luck it will be on again some time. 
One small point the Harriers never VIFFED. Its something that they would only do as a last resort as you lose energy and speed making you a sitting duck if theres a second plane around.

The only performance advantage the Mirage had over the Harrier was speed but at these ranges from base they couldn't afford to use much if any afterburner negating that advantage.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 9, 2005)

i've read a combat report of a guy that VIFFed  unfortunatly it was in a magazine my mum threw out  but, even if this was just a one of, atleast one guy did it.......


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## CharlesBronson (Jul 9, 2005)

According to the V Brigada Aerea pilot Guillermo Senn ( Mirage IIIEA), the FRS.1 who shoot him down, made this manouver before unleash the mortal blow.



> I wish I could hear that tape. With luck it will be on again some time.



You probably will.....check this, it was on air the 5 of July at 10.00 am in the UK......maybe in the repetitions.....  

http://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/watch/Print_default.asp?Currentdate=7/5/2005


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 10, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> and phalanx isn't a missile system, it's a rotary cannon.......



Never said it was a missle system.  



the lancaster kicks ass said:


> but the phalanx isn't used against planes, that's what the harriers were for



Actually it can be used against any kind of flying object. It is mostly used as the last defence against missles but can be used against any flyign object.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 11, 2005)

yes it can be, i never said it could, i said it isn't, which it isn't, well okay maybe occasionally but not often


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 11, 2005)

Alright I will give you that bacause aircraft is not its main target.


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## CharlesBronson (Jul 11, 2005)

Oerlikon KCB 30mm twin mounting on british frigate.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 12, 2005)

i don't believe we use them any more.......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 12, 2005)

Would not know but I thought most modern navy's such as the US Navy and the Royal Navy dont use AA guns anymore but rather missles now.


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## trackend (Jul 12, 2005)

This dont look too shabby they had it powered up and where letting the kids have a play at Duxford FL day minus ammo of course


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## evangilder (Jul 12, 2005)

I could use that to silence the neighbors dog.


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 12, 2005)

I could use it to silence the neighbour  (Not that I have any neighbours  )


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 19, 2005)

I could use it to silence the higher ups in my unit who think they have nothing but great ideas.


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 19, 2005)

I'd just blast away with it. I dunno. Maybe some squirrels.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 19, 2005)

I will not say who I would use it on, I might offend someone.


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## jrk (Aug 8, 2005)

the german 88mm anti aircraft/anti tank gun.had good range,heavy damage potential and could be radar controlled.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 10, 2005)

I personally think it was one of the best all around guns. Maybe not the best at any one given thing but it was very good overall.


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## plan_D (Aug 10, 2005)

It wasn't the best anti-aircaft artillery but it was a versatile piece of equipment and was extremely deadly against tanks.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 10, 2005)

Yeap


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## syscom3 (Aug 14, 2005)

Ive seen that movie under a higher resolution before...... and it looks like a bomb from an airplane above fell on the wing.

Plus it was in the Pacific, not Europe. From the islands below, it looks like its over Truk or Pulau Atoll.


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## syscom3 (Aug 14, 2005)

I took these pix of a pair of Japanese medium Caliber AA guns.

They were recovered from Eastern New Guinie (one is definetly from Wewak area) and are on exhibit at the Imperial Japanese War Museum, Yasakuni, Tokyo.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 14, 2005)

Nice pics.


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## jrk (Aug 15, 2005)

one for the brits.

the 25 pounder
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?i...=25+pounder+field+gun&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&sa=N


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 30, 2005)

Good pics.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 11, 2005)

Nice action shots of 8,8 cm Flak 18 used as field artillery. The gun belong to SS division Totenkopf.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 11, 2005)

Interesting way to store your ammo.


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## reddragon (Sep 12, 2005)

Nice photos!


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## evangilder (Sep 12, 2005)

Good shots.


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## syscom3 (Sep 13, 2005)

Also the US 90mm was no slouch. I remember watching a show on discovery channel a few years back, on how back in 1945, it was slaved to a radar and an experimental ballistics computer and could actually automatically track and hit on the first couple of salvo's low and middle flying aircraft.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 13, 2005)

Yes, and the 90 mm ammo had proximity fuzes, wich the germans have not.


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## tail end charlie (Oct 1, 2010)

Low cloud and freezing fog


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## RCAFson (Oct 2, 2010)

syscom3 said:


> Also the US 90mm was no slouch. I remember watching a show on discovery channel a few years back, on how back in 1945, it was slaved to a radar and an experimental ballistics computer and could actually automatically track and hit on the first couple of salvo's low and middle flying aircraft.




That was the SCR-584 system, which included a radar and a ballistics computer. However it was not experimental and was comnpleted in mid 1943 and first deployed at Anzio. When combined with the US 90mm gun and VT ammunition it was state of the art:
The SCR-584 Radar Tribute Page de KA9MVA

IIRC, it was also used with the UK 3.7in AA gun to help defeat the V-1.

The SCR-584 was one of 3 centimetric radar *G*un *L*aying systems that were developed by the Allied during WW2; SCR-584 was also known at GL-3A (A for American) and there was also GL-3B (B for British) and GL-3C (C for Canadian). The GL-3C was actually ready first, but war priority and engineering problems delayed its introduction. 
[5.0] Microwave Radar At War (2)

There was actually more than 3 centimetric systemed developed, of course, but GL-3, A, B and C were developed to a common spec.


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## CharlesBronson (Nov 4, 2010)

Video showing 75mmm Antiaircraft Vickers gun of the pre-war period, it was used in the WW2 by Romania and Japan. Note the calculator for setting the time fuze.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKKbQMjSZ8Y_


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