# French SS Troops



## comiso90 (Jun 21, 2009)

Axis History Factbook: Waffen SS-Grenadier-Sturmbrigade Brigade Frankreich - French Volunteers and Collaborationist Forces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/33rd_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_Charlemagne_(1st_French)
33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne (1st French)


_General Leclerc was famously presented with a defiant group of 11-12 captured Charlemagne Division men. The Free French General immediately asked them why they wore a German uniform, to which one of them unwisely replied by asking the General why he wore an American one (the Free French wore modified US army uniforms). The group of French Waffen-SS men was then promptly executed without any form of military tribunal procedure. _
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## BombTaxi (Jun 21, 2009)

I always find it hugely ironic that the final resistance around the bunker in Berlin was carried out by troops from the foreign SS divisions, including Charlemagne. Some of these units, despite their Nazi ideology, had ferocious and excellent combat records - Wiking is one that immediately springs to mind. Perhaps the ongoing historical fascination with the Waffen-SS stems from the fact that such undoubtedly valiant and skilled soldiers could deploy thier talents in the service of one of the most depraved regimes ever to blight our planet?


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## Lucky13 (Jun 22, 2009)

You also had 11th SS Divison Nordland making its final stand around the Reichstag (spelling?)... Which as with Wiking had Swedes in its ranks.


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## comiso90 (Jun 22, 2009)

BombTaxi said:


> I always find it hugely ironic that the final resistance around the bunker in Berlin was carried out by troops from the foreign SS divisions, including Charlemagne. Some of these units, despite their Nazi ideology, had ferocious and excellent combat records -




yeah me too... It would make a great mini-series..

they chose the wrong side and watched their world crumble around them.. they fought for their lives!

.


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## Lucky13 (Jun 22, 2009)

They sure did! They what was coming if captured....


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## comiso90 (Jun 22, 2009)

Lucky13 said:


> They sure did! They what was coming if captured....



is there a book about the subject?

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## davebender (Jun 22, 2009)

After 1940 France was in an impossible position. Metropolitan France was partially occupied by Germany. The RN sank part of the French navy and had the rest bottled up. Britain and the USA jointly seized all the French overseas colonies except Indochina, which was occupied by Japan. French war material ordered from the USA prior to June 1940 was diverted to their British enemies. British and American aircraft were bombing French industry and the French rail network, crippling the economy. France did not have a dependable friend in the world. Under such circumstances the "right side" was not obvious.


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## comiso90 (Jun 22, 2009)

davebender said:


> France did not have a dependable friend in the world. Under such circumstances the "right side" was not obvious.



IMO "The right side" is the country that does not invade and occupy your land.
Only a coward would choose sides based solely on who they think will win.



.


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## Capt. Vick (Jun 22, 2009)

BombTaxi said:


> I always find it hugely ironic that the final resistance around the bunker in Berlin was carried out by troops from the foreign SS divisions, including Charlemagne.



I thought the same thing! These were men without countries, fighting for an obviously dying cause, I guess this was all they could do by then. Sad... I guess a mans convictions are stronger if they have to activelly seek out a like minded organization, in this case say Anti-Communism. I wonder if I believe in anything as strongly, for right or wrong, to do as they did and be sustained on a concept alone?


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## davebender (Jun 22, 2009)

> The right side is the country that does not invade and occupy your land.


That rules out Britain, Germany, Italy, Japan and the USA.


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## comiso90 (Jun 22, 2009)

davebender said:


> That rules out Britain, Germany, Italy, Japan and the USA.





You are right we invaded and occupied France and England in the same manner as the Nazi's...

I assume you're making a joke... or perhaps i misunderstand you.



/


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 22, 2009)

davebender said:


> That rules out Britain, Germany, Italy, Japan and the USA.



Huh?



comiso90 said:


> IMO "The right side" is the country that does not invade and occupy your land.
> Only a coward would choose sides based solely on who they think will win.
> 
> 
> ...



I do not think we can hold a whole country responsible for that. There were plenty of foreign units that fought for the Germans. I believe the people may have held the same ideals as the Nazi's and that is why they did it. It certainly does not speak for a whole country though.

Here is an incomplete list:

Country/Ethnicity - Estimated # of volunteers- Name of Waffen-SS Units

Albanian - 3,000 -21st SS Division

Belgian/ Flemish - 23,000 -5th SS Div., 27th SS Div.

Belgium/Walloon - 15,000 -5th SS Div., 28th SS Div.

British Commonwealth (English) - 50 -The British Freikorps

Bulgaria - 1,000 in the Bulgarisches Reg.

Croatia (includes Bosnian Muslims) - 30,000 7th SS Div., 13th SS Hanshar Div.23rd SS Div.

Denmark - 10,000 in Freikorps Danemark, 11th SS Div.

India - 3,500 in the Volunteer Legion

Estonia - 20,000 in the 20th SS Div.

Finland - 1,000 in a Volunteer Battalion.

Hungarians - 15,000 in the 25th SS Div., 26th SS Div. 33rd SS Div.

Latvia - 39,000 in the 15th SS Div., 19th SS Div.

Netherlands - 50,000 in the 23rd SS Div., 34th SS Div.

Norway - 6,000 in the 5th SS Div., 6th SS Div.11th SS Div., .

France - 8,000 33rd SS Div.

Italy - 20,000

Poland/Ukraine - 25,000 14th SS Div.

Russian - (Belorussia) 12,000 29th SS Div., 30th SS Div.

Russian - (Cossack) 40,000 XV SS Kosaken-Kavallerie-Korps

Russian - (Turkic) 8,000 Ostürkische SS, Tatarishe SS

Rumania - 3,000 Waffen-Grenadierregiment der SS (rumänisches 1)

Serbia - 15,000 Volunteer Corps

Spain - 1,000 Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 101

Sweden, Switzerland Luxemburg 3,000 5th SS Div., 11th SS Div.

United States - 8 to 50 (Various units including the proposed but never really built American Free Corps)


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## comiso90 (Jun 22, 2009)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Huh?
> 
> I do not think we can hold a whole country responsible for that. There were plenty of foreign units that fought for the Germans. I believe the people may have held the same ideals as the Nazi's and that is why they did it. It certainly does not speak for a whole country though.



i think we agree. 

I would never disparage France or the people of France for what happen to them. They were bested by a much superior force with more determined and talented leadership. They just simply got their ass kicked.

Yes, there are those that sympathized with the fascists and welcomed the Germans seeing them as liberators. These people are very courageous for sticking to their ideals even though they are twisted.

I will piss on the mindless lackeys that joined the German cause because they were afraid or because they thought Germany would win and ignored a sense of duty and honor to their homeland.

.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 22, 2009)

comiso90 said:


> i think we agree.
> 
> I would never disparage France or the people of France for what happen to them. They were bested by a much superior force with more determined and talented leadership. They just simply got their ass kicked.
> 
> ...



We certainly agree! Especially on the last part...


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## davebender (Jun 22, 2009)

What about the 10s of thousands of French military personnel who fought bravely against unprovoked Anglo-American attacks on the French Navy and French colonial empire? These people fought for neither Germany nor Britain. They were simply fighting to defend France.


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## comiso90 (Jun 22, 2009)

What about them? Start a thread, post information and discuss it.
Your question sounds rhetorical... elaborate.. post info. 
.


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## Arsenal VG-33 (Jun 22, 2009)

The foreign volunteers of the SS were indeed in a predicament. Being squeezed on both the East and West fronts, they had little choice but to fight, sometimes with the utmost savagery. Their home countries having been liberated, these foreign volunteers represented the worst of the worst of collaborators: the ones who wore the enemy's uniform, and not that of the Wermacht but that of the SS. So it's no surprise that of the Berlin defenders there could be found many SS foreign volunteers, the last remnants of their original units.

As for their motivation for joining, I would have to say that for the majority, the prospect of joining the SS as a foreign volunteer was due mostly as a desire to defeat Bolchevism, rather than any anti-semitic indoctrination. That's not to say some or more may have been virulently anti-semetic, but from what I've read many of these volunteers had family backgrounds that were very anti-communists. Since joining the foreign SS units was seen as fighting the communists, many of them probably felt that by being in the SS on the Russian front, they thus were also able to serve their own countries by extension. 

As for Gen. Leclerc's actions, he was within his right to do what he did, regardless of what verbal exchange may have taken place.


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## Arsenal VG-33 (Jun 22, 2009)

davebender said:


> What about the 10s of thousands of French military personnel who fought bravely against unprovoked Anglo-American attacks on the French Navy and French colonial empire? These people fought for neither Germany nor Britain. They were simply fighting to defend France.



They did, at Dakar. Later, during Torch, they defended Oran and even took US troops prisoners there. Keeping in mind however, they took orders from a high command which was detached from the situation and was pro-Vichy....a collaborationist puippet-government which maintained diplomatic relations with the US at the beheast of FDR, C. Hull, and Leahy. It's no wonder the French troops in N. Africa were so confused at the beginning. A third of officers probably being pro-Vichy, another third being pro-de Gaulle, and the last third being completely afraid of doing anything for fear of breaking somebody's unseen/unheard orders.


A good read of this topic is Rick Atkinson's excellent book: *Army at Dawn*


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## Amsel (Jun 23, 2009)

Anytime a thread starts about the SS it gets sidetracked. It would be interesting to learn more about them without the political posts about how evil they were etc, etc.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 23, 2009)

Amsel said:


> Anytime a thread starts about the SS it gets sidetracked. It would be interesting to learn more about them without the political posts about how evil they were etc, etc.



I agree, it would be nice to discuss something just based off of historical aspects.


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## BombTaxi (Jun 23, 2009)

I think I broadly agree that many foreign SS volunteers, and perhaps a good number of German SS men joind to fight against Communism as much as they joined to fight for the Nazi regime. There were other factors in oplay as well. The large number of Russian Cossack volunteers should be no surprise to anyone with a grasp of Russian history. The Cossacks had long seen the St Pertersburg and Moscow governments as opressors and invaders, and had fough on the White side during the Civil War to try to escape Bolshevik rule. The enemy of their enemy being theior friend, it is hardly surprising that many joined the SS, misguided as it may have been. Perhaps they hoped that after Stalin was defeated, Hitler would allow them a free country... 

I also agree that too much discussion of the SS as a military force is hijacked by the political context in which they fought, and perhaps the same might be said about the NKVD too. But a purely military discussion of the SS is always difficult, as I think much of their bravery and savagery was spurred on by a true hatred of Russian Communism...


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## Lucky13 (Jun 24, 2009)

Sound!


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## Deanimator (Jun 30, 2009)

comiso90 said:


> is there a book about the subject?.


It's not the subject, but I believe that Antony Beevor's book on the fall of Berlin mentions at least in passing, the foreign SS units, in particular, Charlemagne.


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## Amsel (Jun 30, 2009)

Great book. I really enjoyed The Fall of Berlin 1945 by Beevor.


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## Deanimator (Jun 30, 2009)

Amsel said:


> Great book. I really enjoyed The Fall of Berlin 1945 by Beevor.


As the Brits say, Beevor really "puts the boot in" in his description of Himmler's dilettantish excursion into battlefield command. One dose of Soviet shelling and he "took ill" never to exercise "combat" command again.


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## comiso90 (Jun 30, 2009)

Deanimator said:


> Adilettantish excursion into battlefield command. One dose of Soviet shelling and he "took ill" never to exercise "combat" command again.




i wasnt aware Himmler went to a battlefield command. i guess he was better at designing intimidating uniforms


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## Amsel (Jun 30, 2009)

In the end while his SS were hanging deserters, Himmler was trying to make a deal with the Allies to replace Hitler. The Allies were not real interested. 

In the meantime Sturmbataillon Charlemagne was fighting for their lives.


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## Lucky13 (Jul 1, 2009)

Didn't the 5 SS Division Wiking do a fighting withdrawal through Czechoslovakia and continue to Fürstenfeld, Austria and surrender there to the American forces on 9th of May?

The breakout down Freidrichstrasse turned into a disorganized mob, which was quickly dispatched by Soviet armoured attacks. The Nordland's last SdKfz 250 was knocked out by a Soviet soldier with a captured German Panzerfaust. Reg, SS920915?


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## Deanimator (Jul 5, 2009)

Lucky13 said:


> Didn't the 5 SS Division Wiking do a fighting withdrawal through Czechoslovakia and continue to Fürstenfeld, Austria and surrender there to the American forces on 9th of May?
> 
> The breakout down Freidrichstrasse turned into a disorganized mob, which was quickly dispatched by Soviet armoured attacks. The Nordland's last SdKfz 250 was knocked out by a Soviet soldier with a captured German Panzerfaust. Reg, SS920915?


Isn't this referenced in "The Fall of Berlin"?


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## zoul310 (Jul 5, 2009)

It's indeed always a tuff and sensitive subject because it's almost impossible to remove political and emotional context.
France never really recovered from the human losses of WW1. From there a very divided country appeared on the political map which brought almost civil war. A huge part of the 1940 collapse comes from that. Some people wished to loose to germany to not see France become communist. Some didn't want to fight. 
France was a mess.

Vichy government was openly collaborative and wanted more. Vichy wanted to be part of the Axis but Germany never allowed it. And so many of Charlemagne enrolled to fight communism. As early as 1942 the "LVF" (Legion of French Volunters) regiment was fighting on the eastern front.

The bombing of the french navy in Mers El Kebir by the British was used heavily by the Vichy propaganda to try to make the switch.

Some decided to put their political views behind as long as France was occupied and fight against the invader. The Gaullist had that simple idea and the "Free French" were created. 

One of the most amazing unit was "Normandie Niemen" Fighter Regiment who fought in Russia. Many french aces came from this unit. (Albert, De La Poype, Tulasne, etc)

There is no surprise with general Leclerc story. Most of Charlemagne survivors were put on trial and sentenced to death.

It was a political war mixed with the actual war in France. 
Not simple, not easy to digest.

G.


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## Amsel (Jul 5, 2009)

Great info, thanks. And welcome.


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## zoul310 (Jul 6, 2009)

Thank you Amsel


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## Marcel (Jul 6, 2009)

Amsel said:


> Anytime a thread starts about the SS it gets sidetracked. It would be interesting to learn more about them without the political posts about how evil they were etc, etc.


I think for Europeans (from former occupied countries) it's very difficult to discuss objectively the SS. WW2 brought the best, but also certainly the worst of the population to the surface. I for instance had a grandfather who was almost killed while playing a part in the resistance and I had an uncle who was with the SS. This leads to uneasiness and an urge to make a stand against the Nazi's I think. The SS was the political army of the Nazi's where most collaborators joined, so it'll always cause a strong emotional reaction with many of my fellow Europeans.


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## Amsel (Jul 6, 2009)

The SS were pretty vicious, and that is understandable, Marcel. Americans are not fond of them either. An SS member didn't want to be caught in uniform by the Americans on the Western Front because they were shot on sight. I was just hoping for a historical conversation, but its not too big of a deal.


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## Marcel (Jul 6, 2009)

Amsel said:


> The SS were pretty vicious, and that is understandable, Marcel. Americans are not fond of them either. An SS member didn't want to be caught in uniform by the Americans on the Western Front because they were shot on sight. I was just hoping for a historical conversation, but its not too big of a deal.



I understand. My point is: it's more personal to some (if not many) Europeans. It certainly is for me.


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## Negative Creep (Jul 8, 2009)

I think you are brought up to see the SS as simply pure evil, like baddies in a film. It's always very strange to see them wirting letters home to their families saying how much they love them, then describing wiping out all the Jews in a village. Of course you do have to tread very carefully around such matters, as they could be easily taken as being sympathetic. In a way you have to admire the conviction (but NOT the philosophy or actions) of the foreign SS men defending Berlin. They had no reason to be there and knew full well what awaited them if captured


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