# Italian Ace and rumors



## Haztoys (Jan 21, 2006)

I have often hear how Italian fighter pilots were not good "fighters"  .... This could not be true?.... Why and were did this come about ?

Who were the top Aces.?

Thanks 

David 

Hazardous Toys inc


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## v2 (Jan 21, 2006)

If you are interesting in...

http://www.acesofww2.com/italy/Italy.htm


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## Dogwalker (Jan 21, 2006)

There is not an official list of italian aces of WWII, since the Regia Aeronautica, up to 1942, don't put importance on individual scores, rather than the scores of the squadrons, and Aeronautica Militare Italiana, in the post-war years, had problems to confront the datas of Regia Aeronautica, Aeronautica Nazionale Repubblicana and Italian Co-Belligerant Air force.
Different lists that you can find on the net, are the results of the work of different private appassionates and experts, that had to confront the documents (often incomplete, due to the war events) of the different squadrons, groups and even air forces.
this is the most complete list I ever found.
http://math.fce.vutbr.cz/safarik/ACES/aces1/italy-ww2.pdf
25 of them were "biplane aces" (having shot down 5 or more enemies flying with a biplane)

DogW


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## Gnomey (Jan 21, 2006)

Good list DogW, interesting to read.


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## rebel8303 (Jan 25, 2006)

I haven't search particularly for Italian achievments but I 've been reading for swordfish action over the Mediterannean. It is mentioned cases were swordfish escaped italian fighters by throwing flares at them.. I think that Italian pilots did not have the guts that British and German pilots did have...


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## Dogwalker (Jan 25, 2006)

Yeah, they were a bunch of cowards. Since they, obviously, did not have the guts that British and German pilots did have, they didn't usually attack far larger formations of enemy more advanced fighters cause they were brave, or only professional, pilots, but cause they didn't know mathematics.
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/italy_reiner.htm

DogW


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## rebel8303 (Jan 25, 2006)

There were a bunch of aircraft shot down however during the invasion in Greece. There, there weren't far larger formations of enemy more advanced fighters but some gloster gladiators and some PZL P.24


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## Dogwalker (Jan 25, 2006)

Yeah, it probably depends of the guts. All shot down, hit in the shoulders, while they were escaping.

DogW


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## Magister (Jan 25, 2006)

I have read in several places over the years that Italian pilots were no less brave than Germans. I understand that their skill was impressive on an acrobatic level.

Most of their aircraft were significantly inferior to the allies in terms of overall performance. (Macchi Mc 200's and Fiat G.50's not to mention all the biplanes that were still seeing frontline service in 1942and 1943) 

Also, their armament was generally quite pitiful. (Some Macchi Mc 202's just had two .50's and two 7.7mm guns)

In 1943, they began to churn out some truly impressive aircraft (Series 5 fighters) that on a dogfighting level were superior to anything the allies had with the possible exception of the latest model Spitfires. Even then, they were probably equals.

I heve never heard of Swordfish pilots "scaring away" Italian fighter pilots by throwing flares. Frankly, it sounds like a bunch of BS to me but that's just one man's opinion.

Here is a quote from George Buerling from a book by Miles Constable entitled "George Beurling, Canadian Ace" With 32 confirmed planes shot down, George Beurling was one of the top Allied aces of WWII. 

*"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick with it even if things are going against them, whereas the Jerries will run." *


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## rebel8303 (Jan 25, 2006)

The fact is that late in the war Italy had some serious gear.
Italian pilots were quiet good acrobats.
But I think that they were not good in dogfighting
By the way Dogwalker I didn't want to insult you.
Sorry if I did


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## Dogwalker (Jan 25, 2006)

rebel8303 said:


> The fact is that late in the war Italy had some serious gear.
> Italian pilots were quiet good acrobats.
> But I think that they were not good in dogfighting
> By the way Dogwalker I didn't want to insult you.
> Sorry if I did


I'm not an italian pilot of WWII
Since I was born in 1972, You did not insult me. 
Thinking that italian pilots were not good in dogfighting is one thing. Why would have I to disagree with the respectable opinion of someone who haven't search particularly for Italian achievments? 
Saying that italian (or French, or Poles or whichever other nationality) pilots are cowards that usually escaped, scared of the shadows, is another thing. And yeah, it's insulting, but of peoples that usually passed away some years ago, often doing their job at the best.
Or at least that's my opinion

DogW


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## rebel8303 (Jan 25, 2006)

I don't think that Italian pillots ran away from battle. I just think that allthough Italy was in the Axis side Italians never actually wanted that war (as Germans did). British pilots on the other hand had no choise because they needed to defend their island. 
Anyway as far for the guts comment I made I must apologize because I generalised the swordfish incident (were the Italian fighter pilot abandonded the chase of the swordfish because of a flare - the rear machinegun ammo was depleted)


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## Magister (Jan 25, 2006)

Again, I cut and paste from my post above:

Here is a quote from George Buerling from a book by Miles Constable entitled "George Beurling, Canadian Ace" With 32 confirmed planes shot down, George Beurling was one of the top Allied aces of WWII.

"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick with it even if things are going against them, whereas the Jerries will run." 

As for that flare story, is it possible that the Italian broke off because of low fuel or some other reason? Why in the world would having flares thrown scare any pilot?


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## rebel8303 (Jan 25, 2006)

I found the exact incident:

On September 2 1940 the aircraft carrier Illustrious launched No. 813 Squadron's aircraft in a strike on the Italian-held Greek island of Rhodes. Defending fighters shot down 4 attacking Stingbags from the squadron and almost claimed a fifth. Pilot John Wellham recalled how his observer warned him that two Fiat C.R.42s were on their tale adding:"So I dived down to the sea flying at about 40 ft above the water." When the gunner was out of ammo radioman-observer P.Humphreys seized a Very pistol and fired flares as fast as he could reload the single-shot device."This might seem rather pointless," noted Wellham," but was based on the fact that we knew that the Italians had heard some rumor about a 'Churchill Secret Weapon' and we thought that they might mistake this for it." [...] One of the fighters flew into the sea and exploded in a ball of flames when its pilot misjudged his altitude in pursuing the Englishmen. The remaining Fiat gave up the chase and departed homeward.

 Seems like I did not remembererd the fact as I thought I did  
I must apologize once more to Dogwalker


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## Dogwalker (Jan 26, 2006)

No problem, it's an interesting event I didn't knew before. 

DogW


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 26, 2006)

I have read about that before somewhere...

But theres no way Italian pilots were cowards. They done the best they could with the equipment and resources they had...


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## evangilder (Jan 26, 2006)

You're right CC. It takes a certain amount of courage to step into any military vehicle as they are always built by the lowest bidder!


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## KraziKanuK (Jan 26, 2006)

If you want to know about Italian aces get the Osprey Aces book # 34.

Don't take it as gospel for the Osprey Aces books have errors but will give you an insight.


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## Hunter368 (Jan 26, 2006)

Here how I rate them after reading a fair bit about them:

1-Great pilots
2-Brave
3-Not great planes, for the most part. (later in the war they got better)
4-Poor tatics
5-Great pilots
6-Very brave

Just my opinion.


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## rebel8303 (Jan 26, 2006)

When it goes to war I don't think that you can name someone coward anyways. One might not do a heroic act but it sure tha he'll be more courageous and brave than when in peaceful times. After all it is a matter of life and death. 
Finally I don't think I can judge of one's act on a situation I have never been myself.


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## Hunter368 (Jan 26, 2006)

rebel8303 said:


> When it goes to war I don't think that you can name someone coward anyways. One might not do a heroic act but it sure tha he'll be more courageous and brave than when in peaceful times. After all it is a matter of life and death.
> Finally I don't think I can judge of one's act on a situation I have never been myself.



Wise words. Nicely put.


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## Jank (Jan 26, 2006)

Magister, I hav that book. I read that passage last night. Must have been interesting fighting the germans and eyeties in the same engagment.


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## Parmigiano (Jan 30, 2006)

Probably the best english recent book about the pilots of Regia is 1998 Chris Dunning's 'Courage Alone' (.. the name says everything) , Hikoki Pubblications.

Unfortunately it seems out of print, Amazon wants $500 for a copy!


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## Twitch (Feb 4, 2006)

I have a list of all the victories scored by Italians in WW2, not just aces. It's probably too long to post here but I'll email it to anyone who wants it.

My talks with American aces regarding the Italians was generally not with too much praise. As one put it quite matter-of-factly, "They'd come out and show off doing aerobatics and we'd shoot then down." Shrug.

That's not to say there weren't some pilots that excelled.


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## Parmigiano (Feb 4, 2006)

Very macho statement, but from the other side the bell rings differently...

From an interview to italian ace Luigi Gorrini:

"Cimicchi, medaglia d'oro dell'aeronautica del sud, mi disse:"Gigi, io ero al sud, ma con il cuore stavo con voi e con me tanti altri! Voi non sapete veramente quanti aeroplani avete abbattuto: io li contavo quando partivano e li contavo al ritorno, lavoravo con un maggiore che comandava un gruppo di Lighting. Quando si trattava di andare contro i Tedeschi passava, ma quando sapevano che vi avrebbero incontrato, molti tiravano dietro il sedere sulla sedia...Ci credevano belve, persone disposte a tutto.. "

"Cimicchi, a gold medal of South Air Force, told me 'Luigi, I was in the south but my heart was with you guys. You don't even know how many airplanes you have shot down: I was counting them at take off and I was counting them when they returned, I was woking with a major who was commanding a Lightning group. When they had to fly against the German was ok, but when they knew they would had meet you many were shivering on their seats. They believed you were beast, ready for anything "

Also, according to their records, the Italian aviation of RSI (those who decided to continue to fight for Mussolini, the only Italian pilots who could fly decent material) shoot down in action 262 Allied aircraft with the loss of 158.
Not bad, considering that the operations were in 1944 and 45, when the overwhelming numerical and logistic superiority of the Allies was well established. 

The point is that, with all my respect for people who fought a war, what veterans say cannot be taken for granted (whatever side they are), there are too many examples of 'too personal' view of the facts. Understandable and probably honest, but not enough valid to be considered 'historical fact'


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## Magister (Feb 5, 2006)

From my earlier post concerning the bravery of Itralian Pilots, here is a quote from George Buerling from a book by Miles Constable entitled "George Beurling, Canadian Ace" 

With 32 confirmed planes shot down, George Beurling was one of the top Allied aces of WWII.

"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, *I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans*, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. *But they will stick with it even if things are going against them, whereas the Jerries will run*."


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 5, 2006)

Magister said:


> From my earlier post concerning the bravery of Itralian Pilots, here is a quote from George Buerling from a book by Miles Constable entitled "George Beurling, Canadian Ace"
> 
> With 32 confirmed planes shot down, George Beurling was one of the top Allied aces of WWII.
> 
> "The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, *I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans*, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. *But they will stick with it even if things are going against them, whereas the Jerries will run*."


Beurling was one of the best but you're citing a madman, he was basically a nut!!!


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## Magister (Feb 5, 2006)

He literally had no fear. That doesn't make his opinions on Italian pilots any less valid.


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## Dogwalker (Feb 5, 2006)

It's rare to read of some WWII pilot who admire his adversary tactics. The same scarce consideration that US pilots showed for "italian aerobatics" italian pilots showed for the "yo-yo tactics". 
Is natural that someone (especially someone who has far proved his ability) believe that his beaviour is the best and, as a matter of fact, we can read only the reports of those who survived to say this.

However, excellent pilots or not, The two groups of fighter of ANR (the northern aviation after 8 september 1943) scored a kill/loss ratio of about 2,5/1 that, with regards to the conditions in which they had to operate, can be considered quite decent.

DogW


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 5, 2006)

Magister said:


> He literally had no fear. That doesn't make his opinions on Italian pilots any less valid.


No but he's the same guy who described blowing up a guys brains in sickening detail in front of a civilian audience in Montreal, and he was only in combat for 2 weeks (Malta). Although a great fighter pilot, I would question his ability to give any credible critique of his opponent, especially since it seemed he did have "problems."

If you don't have fear in combat, you have a big problem!!!!


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## pbfoot (Feb 5, 2006)

I don't think Beurling was a nut as much as he marched to different drummer I believe he detested the limelight and made his speech in Montreal as a way to get off the bond tour and back into combat according to a 1943 Readers Digest article most pilots in Malta flew one day and were off the next Beurling flew everyday he trained relentlessly to become a pilot and developed his skills as such but he was a private person and teetotaler unlike 99.9999% of pilots and with the average age of the guys he served with this probably greatly enhanced his loner reputation as he did not take part in the after duty "celebrations" yes he was a bit of a nutter but every fighter pilot I've ever met was a bit off the wall as well
.


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 5, 2006)

Let's fact it, he's not the type of pilot you would of had patrolling performing UN peacekeeping missions, that my point. Great pilot fearless warrior, not a leadership candidate and not one, in the post war years you would trust lets say with an atomic bomb for example....


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## Twitch (Feb 5, 2006)

I never meant to insinuate that Italian pilots were not good. Obviously many were. Any successful combat pilot is one thing- aggressive. being skilled at flying is a small portion of the equation. 5% of all US pilots became aces and accounted for 90%+ of the kills scored. Something near those percentages is about right for every country. The pilots I talked to that flew the Med simply did not encounter any superb Italian aces during their sorties. Sure doesn't mean they weren't out there.


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## Magister (Feb 5, 2006)

_"No but he's the same guy who described blowing up a guys brains in sickening detail in front of a civilian audience in Montreal, and he was only in combat for 2 weeks (Malta). Although a great fighter pilot, I would question his ability to give any credible critique of his opponent, especially since it seemed he did have "problems." _

With 32 confirmed kills, I will take his "critique" of any enemy.

Where do you get the "he was only in combat for two weeks"? The book I have and various poaces on-line indicate more thsan two months not weeks. In that period of time, he flew countless sorties against both Germans and Italians in the same theatre of operations for an apples to apples comparison.

_"Let's fact it, he's not the type of pilot you would of had patrolling performing UN peacekeeping missions, that my point."_

That may be so but how does that relate to his inability to understand whether his adversaries are brave or checken-sh*ts?

His commanding officer in Malta, Stanley Grant:

""Beurling was untidy, with a shock of fair, touseled hair above penetrating blue eyes. He smiled a lot and the smile came straight out of those striking eyes. His sallow complexion was in keeping with his part Scandinavian ancestry. He was high strung, brash and outspoken. He was a rebel, yes; but I suspected that his rebelliousness came from some mistaken feeling of inferiority. I judged that what Beurling needed most was not to be smacked down but to be encouraged. His ego mattered very much to him, and from what he told me of his treatment in England, a deliberate attempt had been made to assassinate it. I made him a promise that I would give him my trust and that if he abused it he would be on the next aircraft out of Malta. When I said all this those startling blue eyes peered incredulously at me as if to say that, after all his past experience of human relations, he didn't believe it. He was soon to find out that a basis for confidence and mutual trust did exist. He never once let me down."


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## Dogwalker (Feb 5, 2006)

Twitch said:


> I never meant to insinuate that Italian pilots were not good. Obviously many were. Any successful combat pilot is one thing- aggressive. being skilled at flying is a small portion of the equation. 5% of all US pilots became aces and accounted for 90%+ of the kills scored. Something near those percentages is about right for every country. The pilots I talked to that flew the Med simply did not encounter any superb Italian aces during their sorties. Sure doesn't mean they weren't out there.


The funny thing is that's probable they encounter some.
Misrecognition was the norm in WWII. In Italian and German pilot's reports, every allied monoplane, inline engined, fighter (especially Hurricanes and P-40, but P-39 too) become a "Spitfire", and, in allied pilot's reports, every axis monoplane, inline engined, fighter (especially Macchi's) become a "Messerschmitt".
Reading reports of British pilots over north-africa, it seems that they never encountered a C-202. Confronting them with axis reports, the misrecognition become evident.
The problem became even more present when Italians and Germans began to operate in mixed formations, and even more when, after 8 september 1943, ANR pilots began to fly with Bf-109G.
So, when an allied pilot talk of differences between Italian and German pilots, in negative or positive terms, the first question I think, is if he really has been able to distinguish them, even when italians didn't fly with CR-42.

DogW


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 5, 2006)

Magister said:


> _"No but he's the same guy who described blowing up a guys brains in sickening detail in front of a civilian audience in Montreal, and he was only in combat for 2 weeks (Malta). Although a great fighter pilot, I would question his ability to give any credible critique of his opponent, especially since it seemed he did have "problems." _
> 
> With 32 confirmed kills, I will take his "critique" of any enemy.
> 
> Where do you get the "he was only in combat for two weeks"? The book I have and various poaces on-line indicate more thsan two months not weeks. In that period of time, he flew countless sorties against both Germans and Italians in the same theatre of operations for an apples to apples comparison.



My mistake, 3 1/2 months, that was his time over Malta, he scored most of his victories within a 2 week period, July 1942. He went on the briefly would fly in Europe and "In April 1944 he returned to Canada. However, no suitable task could be found for him here, and on October 16, 1944 he was allowed to retire. It seems that his superiors were unable to come to terms with his maverick nature, and his departure was a regrettable waste of his obvious talents. "


Magister said:


> _"Let's fact it, he's not the type of pilot you would of had patrolling performing UN peacekeeping missions, that my point."_
> 
> That may be so but how does that relate to his inability to understand whether his adversaries are brave or checken-sh*ts?
> 
> ...



It's real simple, this guy had some problems, brave as hell and a great pilot, he would not be the most suitable individual to gain accurate intelligence or to be placed in a command leadership role since he had no regard for his own safety and relentlessly attacked his enemy, any enemy.....

I met one of his armorers when I lived in Canada - he said basically the guy was a nut and during the July 1943 period when he was on a tear, his plane was continually shot to hell.

Bottom line here, how can you consider an accurate critique from a guy who invented his own uniform, continually engaged in dangerous flying stunts in front of his superiors, and who's favorite pass time while on Malta was stomping on flies...

I take his critique of Italian pilots with a grain of salt...


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## pbfoot (Feb 5, 2006)

No he was not commander material he did not want promotion from the ranks in fact it was forced on him prefered the company of the groundcrew which in RAF was frowned upon and I don't think it was flies he stomped on but lizards he shot with a pistol which he said helped in his aerial gunnery
his armourer must have been a happy guy since Beurling did all the maintainence and harmonization of his own weapons he was not a Tommy Maguire type ace . I would like to know how he faired when he was posted to Aerial Gunnery School with other "Top Guns" of the time


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 5, 2006)

pbfoot said:


> No he was not commander material he did not want promotion from the ranks in fact it was forced on him prefered the company of the groundcrew which in RAF was frowned upon and I don't think it was flies he stomped on but lizards he shot with a pistol which he said helped in his aerial gunnery
> his armourer must have been a happy guy since Beurling did all the maintainence and harmonization of his own weapons he was not a Tommy Maguire type ace . I would like to know how he faired when he was posted to Aerial Gunnery School with other "Top Guns" of the time



Yep - this guy I met did say that, he was very "hands on" with his aircraft and actually seemed to enjoy working on his own aircraft.

I know he wanted to remain an NCO - I did hear about the lizzards...


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## Magister (Feb 5, 2006)

_"Bottom line here, how can you consider an accurate critique from a guy who invented his own uniform, continually engaged in dangerous flying stunts in front of his superiors, and who's favorite pass time while on Malta was stomping on flies..."_

Let's see. Invented a uniform, continuously engaged in highy risky endeavors... By your standard, it sounds like George Patton couldn't be trusted in assessing Rommel or Montgomery huh?

There is no reason to believe that his risk tolerance level, dislike for adhering to authority or inane past time activities (shooting lizards with a pistol) on a sh-t forsaken base with nothing to do renders him a liar or with insufficient mental capacity to form credible opinions in an area where he is widely accredited as a noted authority (air combat against Italians and Germans). 

If he really is such an incapacitated loon, there would be lots of patently ridiculous statements floating around for all to read. He gave many interviews during and after the war. Why would such lunacy be restricted to that one statement?


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## pbfoot (Feb 5, 2006)

heres alittle audio clip of a Beurling interview 6 mins long from 43 he sounds a little stiff or uncomfortable 
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-177-990-10/conflict_war/buzz_beurling/


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## Jank (Feb 5, 2006)

They thought Patton was a crazy bird too. He thought he was a rencarnated warrior from Roman Empire era. He threw caution to the wind in his tactics too. Just like Beurling. I wouldn't say his opinions on the Germans as adversares had to be discounted. Wouild you?


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## Magister (Feb 5, 2006)

Ah yes, how could I forget his delusional reincarnation fantasy.

Exactly my point Jank.


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 5, 2006)

Jank said:


> They thought Patton was a crazy bird too. He thought he was a rencarnated warrior from Roman Empire era. He threw caution to the wind in his tactics too. Just like Beurling. I wouldn't say his opinions on the Germans as adversares had to be discounted. Wouild you?


To a point!!!



Magister said:


> Ah yes, how could I forget his delusional reincarnation fantasy.
> 
> Exactly my point Jank.



Mine too - Could you imagine Patton in the post war years?!?! Here George, here's a nuke, don't use it unless we tell you!!!


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## lesofprimus (Feb 6, 2006)

U guys are comparing apples to tomatoes, Buerling to Patton.... Patton was a fine combat commander, Buerling was a nutjob....


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## Jabberwocky (Feb 6, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> U guys are comparing apples to tomatoes, Buerling to Patton.... Patton was a fine combat commander, Buerling was a nutjob....



Patton was just as big a nut as Buerling, he just expressed it differently.


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## plan_D (Feb 6, 2006)

I wouldn't take Patton's opinion on the German forces too seriously.


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## Magister (Feb 6, 2006)

_U guys are comparing apples to tomatoes, Buerling to Patton.... Patton was a fine combat commander, Buerling was a nutjob...._

And Beurling was a fine combat fighter pilot.

The comparison is whether Patton and Beurling, both being "nut jobs" in their own right, are qualified to render credible opinions regarding their adversaries.

Both are shall we say, colorful individuals, which doesn't detract in the slightest from Beutling's assessment of the Italians or Patton's assessment of Rommel, Montgomery or the Germans as fighting soldiers.


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## Magister (Feb 6, 2006)

_I wouldn't take Patton's opinion on the German forces too seriously._

Do you even know what you are talking about?

Patton thought *very highly* of the Germans as fighting soldiers. Which opinions of Patton concerning the Germans would you say shouldn't be taken too seriously?


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Patton was a fine commander but had some traits that might of been a problem had he lived in the post war years. I think he might of suffered a similar fate as MacArthur or even worse. How do you think he would of took to the Soviet Blockade of Berlin in 1948?

Buerling was a fine pilot but definitely a nut job. I'd have a hard time separating fact from fantasy when dealing with him...


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## Magister (Feb 6, 2006)

Interesting how you say that Patton just "had traits that might have been a problem" but Beurling couldn't separate fact from fantasy.

Having a very high tolerance to risk and shooting lizards with a pistol for kicks does not make you incapable of separating fact from fantasy. Proclaiming that you are reincarnated however ... now that's an inability to separate fact from fantasy. In addition, Paton also had a very high tolerance to risk. He just risked his soldiers though!

Had you been a green fighter pilot in Beurling's outfit. I suspect that you would have concluded that you could learn a great deal from him on tactics and what the Germans and Italians are like as adversaries.

Anyway, I think this discussion has run its course.


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Magister said:


> Interesting how you say that Patton just "had traits that might have been a problem" but Beurling couldn't separate fact from fantasy.
> 
> Having a very high tolerance to risk and shooting lizards with a pistol for kicks does not make you incapable of separating fact from fantasy.


No but saying you're going to steal a spitfire and fly it to Israel is another story. His antics aren't limited to shooting lizards..



Magister said:


> Proclaiming that you are reincarnated however ... now that's an inability to separate fact from fantasy. In addition, Paton also had a very high tolerance to risk. He just risked his soldiers though!


I could agree


Magister said:


> Had you been a green fighter pilot in Beurling's outfit. I suspect that you would have concluded that you could learn a great deal from him on tactics and what the Germans and Italians are like as adversaries.


Absolutely - at the same time I would of looked at how reckless is was...


Magister said:


> Anyway, I think this discussion has run its course.


Agree!


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## Twitch (Feb 6, 2006)

Yeah Dogwalker- same thing in the Pacific. Everything was a "Zero" even if it was a Ki 43 or Ki 84 or almost anything....


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 6, 2006)

Twitch said:


> Yeah Dogwalker- same thing in the Pacific. Everything was a "Zero" even if it was a Ki 43 or Ki 84 or almost anything....


Only to the uninformed......


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## plan_D (Feb 6, 2006)

Do you even know what YOU'RE talking about Magister? Patton thought the Germans were good, yes, but he thought he was better. Which is wrong, wrong, wrong. And his opinion on the British and Russians ... well, that's just a joke. 

I'll tell you who you should take seriously, the Germans because they have nothing to gain or lose. In fact, the Germans do the best take on Allied and Soviet commanders and fighting soldiers. 

And just because someone thought they were "good" doesn't mean you go into an argument saying "Patton thought they were good," - Why were they good, Magister? Where were they good? Who where they good against? How would Patton know how the Germans acted against Soviets?


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## lesofprimus (Feb 6, 2006)

Patton was a General Officer, having served in the military for decades.... Buerling was a pilot... BIG difference...

I think it hilarious that u meatballs are trying to convince us that Buerling wasnt a psycho.... He was... Plain and simple, end of story, all remaining arguments are moot....


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 6, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> Patton was a General Officer, having served in the military for decades.... Buerling was a pilot... BIG difference...
> 
> I think it hilarious that u meatballs are trying to convince us that Buerling wasnt a psycho.... He was... Plain and simple, end of story, all remaining arguments are moot....



He almost got his hands on a Mustang had he lived and got to Israel. His COs thought he go off and chase Jerries across Europe. Had he gotten to the Middle East in 48 god knows what he would of done!!!

The man was nuts!!!


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## pbfoot (Feb 6, 2006)

shooting lizards sounds like a good way to pratice shooting they're definately not slow and as for stealing an a/c to help the israelis is news to me I'm aware he was on his way there in 48 . He was in my mind a human fire control system definately one of the best if not the best aerial gunners amongst the allies


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 6, 2006)

pbfoot said:


> shooting lizards sounds like a good way to pratice shooting they're definately not slow and as for stealing an a/c to help the israelis is news to me I'm aware he was on his way there in 48 . He was in my mind a human fire control system definately one of the best if not the best aerial gunners amongst the allies



When he got picked up to go to Israel he told many folks that he was a mercenary. If you believe the theory that the aircraft he died in was sabotoged, it is also believed that becuase of his openness of what he was doing , it led to Arab agents to kill him - if you believe those stories...


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