# German night intruder missions vs American air bases in England



## kettbo (Sep 30, 2012)

Maybe I have missed the boat here...

Makes sense that the Germans should have/could have sent some bombers at night against the major American bomber bases up through the end of 1944.
I know some of the British cities got bombed that late, what about air fields? Certainly a load of HE/FRAG and Incendiaries would play havoc, not to mention clearing un-exploded ordnance. Even a few FW190G dropping those cans of cluster-bomb type weapons could be nasty...and throw whole time-tables off for the morning heavy bomber raids.

Certainly the US and the UK defended against this sort of activity
Any successes for the Germans here?
Any shoot-down over air bases? We certainly had German night fighters LANDING at Allied bases


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## wiking85 (Sep 30, 2012)

Axis History Forum • View topic - Intruder Operations Over England
This thread has a lot of information about that. British night defenses were built up from 1940 after the trauma of the Blitz, so German intruders got slaughtered by 1944. In 1941-2 they were pretty effective enough at a relatively high casualty rate.

Nachtjagdgeschwader 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Intruders 1940-41
> 
> I./NJG 2's initial role was unlike the other units of the Luftwaffe night fighter arm; as a Fernnachtjagd Gruppe they were tasked with long-range intruder missions over the UK, disrupting night flying training and harassing the returning Royal Air Force (RAF) bombers over their own airfields.
> Luftflotte 3's radio intercepts of Bomber Command's transmissions helped pinpoint the operational airfields in Eastern England. I./NJG 2 aircraft could then scramble to be over the airfields at the predicted times of the bomber's return.
> ...



FalkeEins - the Luftwaffe blog: book review - Das Flurschaden-Geschwader Die Chronik des Kampfgeschwaders KG 51 Edelweiß


> The first part of the work is entitled "The unequal fight in the West" and describes Me 410 long-range night intruder missions carried out by I. and II./KG 51 between February 1944 and August 1944



http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/me-210c-vs-me-410a-21168-2.html

Here is the best thread I could find on this website about this topic.
http://www.ww2f.com/what-if-europea...1856-intruder-ops-luftwaffe-after-1941-a.html


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## wiking85 (Sep 30, 2012)

Axis History Forum • View topic - Intruder Operations Over England
This thread has a lot of information about that. British night defenses were built up from 1940 after the trauma of the Blitz, so German intruders got slaughtered by 1944. In 1941-2 they were pretty effective enough at a relatively high casualty rate.

Nachtjagdgeschwader 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Intruders 1940-41
> 
> I./NJG 2's initial role was unlike the other units of the Luftwaffe night fighter arm; as a Fernnachtjagd Gruppe they were tasked with long-range intruder missions over the UK, disrupting night flying training and harassing the returning Royal Air Force (RAF) bombers over their own airfields.
> Luftflotte 3's radio intercepts of Bomber Command's transmissions helped pinpoint the operational airfields in Eastern England. I./NJG 2 aircraft could then scramble to be over the airfields at the predicted times of the bomber's return.
> ...



FalkeEins - the Luftwaffe blog: book review - Das Flurschaden-Geschwader Die Chronik des Kampfgeschwaders KG 51 Edelweiß


> The first part of the work is entitled "The unequal fight in the West" and describes Me 410 long-range night intruder missions carried out by I. and II./KG 51 between February 1944 and August 1944



http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/me-210c-vs-me-410a-21168-2.html

Here is the best thread I could find on this website about this topic.
http://www.ww2f.com/what-if-europea...1856-intruder-ops-luftwaffe-after-1941-a.html


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## Erich (Sep 30, 2012)

note I was the one that added to the links provided, KG 51 d 54 were quite effective but it was alsways the same, the calls back even the LW NF force was active in 1945 but never enough fuels or numbers to plaster BC or US airfields to nothingness. it all should of been kept alive from 1941 onward with increased numbers of LW t/e AIrCRAFT TO DO THE JOB AND LONG RANGE FUEL TANKS TO LOITER JUST WAITING FOR LANDING aLLIED BOMBERS TO APPEAR


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## Crimea_River (Sep 30, 2012)

Also, check this out this great book.


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## davebender (Sep 30, 2012)

If Germany is going to conduct intruder operations it should be early in the war (1939 to 1942) with the objective of disrupting airfield construction. Just as RAF Bomber Command should have attacked German submarine pens as they were being constructed rather then waiting until these bomb proof installations were operational. 

Bombing England after 1942 is just a good way to fritter away Luftwaffe aircraft and experienced aircrew.


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## vikingBerserker (Sep 30, 2012)

Crimea_River said:


> Also, check this out this great book.
> 
> View attachment 212505



Thanks Andy, you just enabled me!


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## kettbo (Oct 1, 2012)

IF you pose a credible threat, then it must be defended against
Occasional attacks would tie down planes to defend the US and UK bases, heads would roll!
Some diversions then sneak the strike package in. Will have to read all the good links and try to find that book cited. Thanks people!

I am familiar with the early Intruder missions. Should have been more clear for 1943 and 44. Wow! Even raids in 1945!


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## Crimea_River (Oct 1, 2012)

Book is still available at Amazon and EBay.


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## Erich (Oct 1, 2012)

a pure what if naturally and we have eluded to this several times on this forum but what if the NJG's would of had the mind-set to increase twin engine numbers and continued the intruder missions over English air bases then what of the Allies .............. ?


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## bobbysocks (Oct 1, 2012)

i would say then the allies would have to significantly step up their night fighter intercept forces. radar might give them the edge in locating raiding ac as it helped during the BoB...
i would say the LW would have had better success loitering around and attacking before take off. may times this was done just at or slightly before sunrise. all those bombers with full loads of fuel and bombs all lines up out of their revetments.... the down side is your night fighters would be flying home in the early morning hours.


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## davebender (Oct 1, 2012)

Nightly intruder missions by a handful of Luftwaffe aircraft will tie down almost as many British defensive resources as large attacks. IMO that's what Germany should be doing after 1942. And don't always attack heavy bomber airfields. Shooting down student pilots flying unarmed trainer aircraft will make RAF pilot training more difficult and costly.


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## tyrodtom (Oct 1, 2012)

davebender said:


> Nightly intruder missions by a handful of Luftwaffe aircraft will tie down almost as many British defensive resources as large attacks. IMO that's what Germany should be doing after 1942. And don't always attack heavy bomber airfields. Shooting down student pilots flying unarmed trainer aircraft will make RAF pilot training more difficult and costly.


 They'd have a long way to go, about half of the RAF's pilots were trained elsewhere ( USA, Canada, Austrailia, etc.) and most of the training bases in Britain were far from the operational bomber and fighter bases. Plus there aren't a lot of student pilots flying around after dark.


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## davebender (Oct 2, 2012)

That cannot be true as RAF Bomber Command normally operated at night.


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## Erich (Oct 2, 2012)

If Hitler would not have had the final word then ............... one can only imagine if the war in Europe really would of been over the English isle, the bases in all respects would of been plastered to nothing.


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## tyrodtom (Oct 2, 2012)

davebender said:


> That cannot be true as RAF Bomber Command normally operated at night.


 A for example is one pilots transition training to the Halifax, 26 hours daytime, 18 night. Mostly cross country, and far from Bomber Commands airfields on the east coast.


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## davebender (Oct 2, 2012)

What difference does that make? German intruder aircraft can reach any point in England and Scotland from airfields in Norway and France.


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## tyrodtom (Oct 2, 2012)

davebender said:


> What difference does that make? German intruder aircraft can reach any point in England and Scotland from airfields in Norway and France.


 Could they now? 
A intruders usual method of operation was to follow returning aircraft back to their fields. Flying all the way from Norway or France to a particular airfield in Britain at night would be a navigational problem of a whole different magnitute, not impossible, but just how often was that done.


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## davebender (Oct 2, 2012)

> Flying all the way from Norway or France to a particular airfield in Britain at night would be a navigational problem of a whole different magnitute,


\
So is flying from an airfield in England to a city in Germany. That's why WWII aircraft operating at night carry (or should carry) a navigator in the back seat when flying over enemy territory.


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## Milosh (Oct 2, 2012)

Bomber Command airfields





Bomber Command Stations WW2 UK Sites

8th AF airfields





The USAF 8th Air Force Airfields In Great Britain


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## davebender (Oct 3, 2012)

Nice maps!

Looks like U.S. 8th Air Force got the best deal. Their airfields were nearest to Europe and also nearest to London where off duty air crew could unwind.


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## Airframes (Oct 3, 2012)

It's also the flattest, and most open area of Britain - saves taking off or landing up or down hill!


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## Erich (Oct 3, 2012)

and easiest to spot by the LW .......


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## davebender (Oct 3, 2012)

By the time 8th Air Force arrived that hardly mattered. The Luftwaffe couldn't send several hundred bombers over England as long as most aircraft were occupied fighting the Soviet Union.


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## Erich (Oct 3, 2012)

I'm going back to 41-42 the 8th was not an effective force to be dealt with till mid 43 and afterward, you didn't need bombers when NJG 2 was scaring the BC units pants off early war, my intentions were to arm all NJG's with the Ju 88C's and let go but with the apparent non-reasoning by the short ugly Austrian it never materialized


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## davebender (Oct 3, 2012)

Airfields were still being constructed at that time. Why not bomb the construction sites at night using He-111s?


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## Erich (Oct 3, 2012)

it should of been en-masse from the start Dave with all available bombers/night fighters // twin engines with fuel tanks underwing. even early ar the LW knew where the Allied fields were and what was being built.


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## Jabberwocky (Oct 3, 2012)

davebender said:


> Airfields were still being constructed at that time. Why not bomb the construction sites at night using He-111s?


 
Because bombing a partially completed airfield, with all the equipment needed to build an airfield in the general vicinity, is not going to achieve much?


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## Crimea_River (Oct 3, 2012)

Ahhhh, hindsight is such a wonderful tool......


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## davebender (Oct 3, 2012)

> Because bombing a partially completed airfield, with all the equipment needed to build an airfield in the general vicinity, is not going to achieve much?


I disagree.

Airfields are generally open space making it difficult to hide equipment. Me-110C6 (with 3cm Mk101 cannon) would be ideal for shooting up dozers, dump trucks, compactors, front end loaders etc.

There's probably a cement plant on site. Bomb it to dust.

Complete the attack by seeding the construction site with cluster munitions.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 3, 2012)

Somehow we went from night intruders to shooting up bulldozers???

Seeding with cluster munitions? 

What type?

Germans had a tough time finding London at night, even flying up the Thames. Finding a partially completed airfield in the boonies, at night and picking out individual bulldozers and trucks is no problem though????


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## wiking85 (Oct 3, 2012)

Why not have the Baedecker Raids be instead against airfields instead of cities?


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## davebender (Oct 4, 2012)

German aircraft used radio navigation aids when operating over England during WWI. By 1939 they had improved radio navigation aids. Why can't they find their war around Britain in the dark?


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## tyrodtom (Oct 4, 2012)

The Luftwaffe used different systems for radio navigation during the night Blitz, but in each case the British developed various countermeasures and neutralized them.


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## Balljoint (Oct 4, 2012)

I think what we’re talking about here is Kammhuber’s NJG2 which was a group in the night-fighter division. This was a rather effective effort despite flying repurposed aircraft. However in Oct 1941the plug was pulled by –surprise- Hitler. As with much of the LW there were too many leaks and not enough plugs. The aircraft were needed more urgently in Sicily and N Africa. This was reinforced by a belief that destroying night returning bombers was a waste of resources, let along going to England to engage them.

When Kammhuber submitted an accurate projection of the resources required to effectively defend against the RAF night campaign the entire effort was cut back and restricted to defending against the RAF area bombing.


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## wiking85 (Oct 4, 2012)

Not as well as the British claim. 
The First Pathfinders - The Operational History of Kampfgruppe 100,1939 - 41: Kenneth Wakefield: 9780947554200: Amazon.com: Books
Pfadfinder: Luftwaffe Pathfinder Operations over Britain,1940-1944: Ken Wakefield: 9780752416922: Amazon.com: Books

The Luftwaffe was using X-Verfahren successfully up until the Blitz was called off in May 1941. Yes, the British were able to thwart some bombers some of the time and shut down Y-Verfahren eventually, but not before it was successfully used on multiple occasions into 1941. This is different than what wikipedia and R.V. Jones claim, but German pathfinders were successfully able to use these aids into 1941. The times they were able to shut out German navigation totally was by blanket jamming of all frequencies, which also blocked their night fighters from getting directions from their ground radars, which greatly complicated their job, as part of the ability of use their AI radar was to get directed to a bomber stream or group by the ground controllers to use their short range onboard radar. That neutralizes their ability to intercept, but hopefully prevents the bombers from finding their targets, an iffy proposition, as the Luftwaffe was still hitting Liverpool in May 1941 even though the Brits claim they had shut down German navigation over Britain.

Not only that, but the Germans continued development of their navigation aids past 1941, so they had new methods by 1942-3 that enabled them to hit targets during the Baedecker raids. Like OBOE, EGON, the German version, was usable by only a few aircraft at a time, but then allowed small groups of intruders to mark a target and let follow on raiders plaster it. Remember than IOTL the vast majority of night bombers Allied and Axis did not have radio navigation equipment and relied on general navigation and pathfinders marking the target to find and hit it.


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## Erich (Oct 4, 2012)

NJG 2 was not officially run by Kammhuber he was directional chef of the entire Nachtjagd arm. NJG 2 became the prime Intruder night fighter unit of the LW. no BC did not block all LW radio and radar navigational systems and vice versa.


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## davebender (Oct 4, 2012)

British counter measures were largely ineffective. Otherwise Luftwaffe bombing raids against seaports such as Liverpool and London wouldn't have been so effective.


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## Airframes (Oct 4, 2012)

B*ll*cks! Read and research the _full _history behind the 'Battle of the Beams' - perhaps then you'll discover why, and for what reasons, many Luftwaffe night raids got through.


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## pinsog (Oct 4, 2012)

davebender said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Airfields are generally open space making it difficult to hide equipment. Me-110C6 (with 3cm Mk101 cannon) would be ideal for shooting up dozers, dump trucks, compactors, front end loaders etc.
> 
> ...



Seems to me that would have worked once, then the next time they try it the airfield has a bunch of 40mm Bofors and M16 halftracks (the quad 50 halftracks) and a bunch of German nightfighters would become lawn decorations.


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## wiking85 (Oct 4, 2012)

pinsog said:


> Seems to me that would have worked once, then the next time they try it the airfield has a bunch of 40mm Bofors and M16 halftracks (the quad 50 halftracks) and a bunch of German nightfighters would become lawn decorations.


Who is to say they try it against the same airfield? The Brits did not have enough AAA to cover all airfields like that, especially in 1942, as they didn't even have enough to defend their cities. 



Airframes said:


> B*ll*cks! Read and research the _full _history behind the 'Battle of the Beams' - perhaps then you'll discover why, and for what reasons, many Luftwaffe night raids got through.


Where do you suggest looking? There is a lot of misleading or outright incorrect information out there, especially in general histories that accept 'official' claims, like that of R.V Jones, at face value without looking into contradictory information.


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## davebender (Oct 4, 2012)

Asymmetric warfare.

By striking airfields at random Britain will be required to defend all of them. If Germany can accomplish that with a small number of intruder aircraft then they come out ahead.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 4, 2012)

There were times that German air crew mistook the Bristol Channel for the Thames. They are over 100 miles apart and point in opposite directions. 
Yes the Germans used navigation systems to find their way over Britain. Often used by pathfinder or target marking aircraft against _CITIES_ which had not moved in 300-1000 years. City is how many miles across? How big is even a bomber airfield? The size of a small neighborhood? 0r 10-12 blocks or ? If it is under construction is was a farmers field just a few weeks or a few months ago and while aerial photos are pretty good that is all there is to go on. Adjust the Beam system to hit a point 2 to 2/2 miles north north west of the village of Lower Swansdale by the Heath??

I Like this bit "Otherwise Luftwaffe bombing raids against seaports such as Liverpool and London wouldn't have been so effective." 

Just maybe they were effective because on most nights you can find cities on the coast and rivers. Following the Thames to London isn't exactly the navigation feat of the decade. Finding Liverpool isn't that had either. 
1. Fly over the Middle of England. 
2. Find Irish sea. 
3. Look for part of the coast line that runs north south for about 25 miles, 
4. If it meets a stretch of coast line that runs almost east west for almost 40 miles at a near right angle Liverpool is just about 2 miles outside the corner. 

Bombing London shouldn't hard. Bombing an an Airfield is like trying to bomb Hyde park with any bombs hitting Kensington gardens being a wide miss.

BTW. weren't they fitting IFF to a number of British planes by then? Groups of German planes stooging around the English countryside are going to be tracked and have night fighters vectored onto them. Maybe the Night fighters find then and maybe they don't but British airspace was getting to be an unfriendly place for German aircraft by 1942. It was getting pretty unfriendly in the late spring of 1941.


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## nuuumannn (Oct 4, 2012)

One of the Germans' biggest problems was post raid reconnaissance - the lack of this was demonstrated amply during the Battle of Britain when attacks were made on the same airfields day after day although the LW thought they were bombing somewhere else. Its easy to say "lets bomb a bunch of airfields at night over unlit Lincolnshire/ Yorkshire/East Anglia" etc, but how does LW High Command assess what damage is being done where, if effective post-raid reconnaissance is not being carried out? As shown on those maps, Britain was a floating aircraft carrier moored off the coast of Europe; potentially an enormous target for raiders, but if not finding the airfields is not a problem, there is still the effort of finding out which ones had been categorised as unusable or repairable so aircraft are not sent back to the same targets again and again.

Besides, if raids like this became a threat, the British would disperse their bombers to satellites as they did their fighters during the BoB. Based on the sheer number of bomber bases that were constructed during the 42-43-44 period, it would be a huge stretch, if not impossible for the LW to render enough of them unusable to destabilise the entire Allied bombing effort.


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## syscom3 (Oct 5, 2012)

The allies never really knocked out the German airfields in France and Holland at all in 1943 and first 1/2 of 1944. And that was usually with multiple groups of medium bombers hitting the target on a frequent basis.

What makes you think the LW using fewer aircraft could accomplish even more over the UK?


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## Shortround6 (Oct 5, 2012)

Three more things for consideration. 
1. The range at which you can use "beams" for navigation is limited by the altitude of the aircraft. While the beams do not follow the exact curvature of the earth, Flying low level to avoid radar and AA could very well put the raiders below the altitude needed to pick up the radio signals. 
2. It is one thing to slip an occasional intruder into a returning bomber stream, lack of IFF may be put down as an equipment malfunction delaying night fighter response. It is another thing to try sending in 12-24 plane strike forces and expecting the defenders not to notice or react. 
3. a note on the increasingly unfriendly British skies.
a."...saw the number of enemy aircraft destroyed begin to rise steadily during the late winter and spring of 1941 - three in January, four in
February, twenty-two in March, forty-eight in March and ninety-six in May. It should be noted, however, that these numbers represented the combined figures for radar-equipped fighters and catseye’s
day-fighters (Hurricanes and Defiants) operating in the night role."
b. "During February 1942, Beaufighters of Nos.29, 68, 141 604 Squadrons, were converted to AI.VII, with the radar enclosed in a ‘thimble’ radome developed by the Bristol Aeroplane Company"
I don't know if that is all the aircraft those squadrons or if they converted a few aircraft in each squadron as "trainers" with total conversion taking a while longer. 

While German aircraft could operate of England in 1942 by night it would be _without_ anywhere near the freedom they enjoyed in 1940 or the early Spring of 1941.


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## davebender (Oct 5, 2012)

> While German aircraft could operate of England in 1942 by night it would be without anywhere near the freedom they enjoyed in 1940 or the early Spring of 1941.


I agree. Which is why I would keep late war intruder missions small. It's not easy to pick out a handful of intruders operating among hundreds of friendly aircraft using WWII technology.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 5, 2012)

Actually it was. The planes were equipped with IFF transponders. A single plane in group or even several planes in a group might have equipment failures. All the planes in a small group having equipment failures at the same time is too suspicious. The US was using IFF with it's carrier aircraft in February of 1942. They used up a lot of fuel vectoring in the CAP on friendly aircraft with malfunctioning equipment but they found a few snoopers too.


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## wuzak (Oct 5, 2012)

Shortround6 said:


> Actually it was. The planes were equipped with IFF transponders. A single plane in group or even several planes in a group might have equipment failures. All the planes in a small group having equipment failures at the same time is too suspicious. The US was using IFF with it's carrier aircraft in February of 1942. They used up a lot of fuel vectoring in the CAP on friendly aircraft with malfunctioning equipment but they found a few snoopers too.



Wouldn't RAF night fighters often make a radio call asking for a signal from the plane they were about to shoot down, in case the aircraft was friendly but without IFF?


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## davebender (Oct 6, 2012)

IFF and WWII era radar systems in general were far from perfect.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 6, 2012)

Yes they were, but depending on the enemy IFF system to be so defective that they ignore it ( anybody got a case of a plane triggering a _POSITIVE_ response from an IFF system without the proper IFF equipment) to allow intruders through is not very good planning. The failures of equipment resulted in unidentified bogies. Blips on the screen were either friendly ( The IFF was working) or unidentified and needed investigating (visual identification) to separate the friendly with bad equipment from actual enemy aircraft. Unknowns were not going to be allowed to go on their merry way without some form of investigation.


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## Ascent (Oct 8, 2012)

wuzak said:


> Wouldn't RAF night fighters often make a radio call asking for a signal from the plane they were about to shoot down, in case the aircraft was friendly but without IFF?



I read a memoir by a Mosquito night fighter pilot and in it he says they would make a call of "break right" before firing so any other aircraft on the same frequency would then break indicating that it was a friendly (or not). He mentions it as he was distracted once and broke left after a call was given which was followed by a call of "I said right idiot" so he knew that it was him who had been tergeted.


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## stona (Oct 8, 2012)

Erich said:


> the short ugly Austrian



Whose that then? 

Hitler's height is variously given as between 1.72 and 1.74,depending who,or which record,you believe. The average height for his 1886-1890 Austrian birth cohort was 167.97. Hitler was many objectionable things but he was well above average height amongst his peers.

Pedantic? Yes,but historical facts are important.

Steve


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