# The Cold War?



## Lucky13 (Nov 4, 2011)

How did it come about so quickly after WWII? Could it have been avoided?
How would West have reacted, had it gone hot at the time of the Berlin Airlift?
How well was the West prepared in '48-'49?


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## pbfoot (Nov 4, 2011)

Lucky13 said:


> How did it come about so quickly after WWII? Could it have been avoided?
> How would West have reacted, had it gone hot at the time of the Berlin Airlift?
> How well was the West prepared in '48-'49?


What is your opinion is more interesting


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## RabidAlien (Nov 4, 2011)

I think the Western Allies were way too trusting of their Soviet "friends" during WW2. Sometimes "the enemy of my enemy" means you get into bed with another monster and don't know it until the lights come on (kinda like Lucky on a Friday night). After the war, the allies were demobilizing their armies and shifting production back to a peacetime setting, I don't think they were ready after the war, and certainly not in '48/49 when most of the wartime troops were demobbed and back in civilian clothes. After all of the propaganda during the war that painted good ole Uncle Joe in a friendly, benevolent light, I doubt the nations' civilian population would be willing to allow their governments to stand up and say "oops, good ole Unca' Joe is actually dirty Uncle Touchy, my bad"...they were still weary from the last war. If the Cold War had started out warmer, I think that we would have been in for another very long fight that would have destroyed Europe and probably bankrupt several nations.


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## evangilder (Nov 5, 2011)

That's a good analysis, RA. The Cold War was one of brinksmanship. It was like a couple of big guys watching each other with one flexing, then the other, knowing that if they ever decided to start duking it out, neither would win. 

After 4 years of war (for the Americans) and even longer for our European friends, I don't think anyone on the allied side was ready to start another one.


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## nuuumannn (Nov 10, 2011)

Churchill never trusted Stalin and relations were never easy between them. When the Russians attacked Finland in Winter 1939, the British actually sent aircraft and equipment into Norway in preparation for support for the Fins, it's even been suggested that Britain was going to send troops. It should also be remembered that the British sent troops to fight alongside the White Russians against the Bolsheviks in 1919. A naval task force of warships, including a seaplane tender was sent. After the Communists came to power in Russia, there was muted panic in many countries for fear that a similar communist uprising would take place, and for awhile it looked as if France would fall to communism after the end of the Great War. Its impact in Europe in between the wars was quite telling and contributed to the state of unrest in Germany, and we all know what happened there. 

Although the Molotov/Ribbentrop Pact came as a surprise to most, it was clear to the British government that both sides were using each other for personal gain and that it was a worthless arrangement. Hitler had already expressed his interest in 'lebensraum' in the east in _Mein Kamf_, so Barbarossa, although devastating, was no surprise to the British. Although they saw that with Stalin on their side, the end of the Nazis might come sooner than later, the previous pact with the Nazis reminded them of just how little they could trust the Soviet leader.

During WW2 the British and US could do little except include their erstwhile ally. Toward the end, when Soviet troops were nearing Berlin, the Allies feared that Stalin would keep going, as he had made his intention to press on to Paris clear. I think that the Cold War was inevitable and that the underlying distrust and fear of the Bolsheviks that had been present in Europe since the Russian revolution, which horrified the remaining Royal households of Europe, particularly the brutal way in which the Romanovs had been dispatched (Remember, Tsar Nick was Queen Victoria's nephew and cousin of George V and Kaiser Wilhelm), manifested itself postwar into the stand-off.


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Nov 11, 2011)

Thank you for the history lesson Nuuumannn!


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## nuuumannn (Nov 13, 2011)

I get a bit carried away at times. This is a fascinating topic and I'm surprised so few have responded. I could go on, as I didn't really answer the question at the start of the thread...


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## bobbysocks (Nov 14, 2011)

the US was...i cant figure out if we were woefully naive, playing along in hopes of getting something, or just out played. i dont think FDR was out played...but i think we didnt understand the new soviet way of negotiating. they gave into a lot of Stalin's demands too easily....gave him a new norden bombsite and the auto pilot that went with it. this is something we had not even shared with the brits! mind you he didnt have a long range heavy bomber. when us aircrews were in russia we taught them everything about our aircraft...even let them taxi them. but our personnel were practically shot trying to get close to a lend lease p39. after giving him what he wanted he still stalled when it came for him to reciprocate. THIS should have been the first indication that it was all a one way street and the soviets were really already planning for the next step after the defeat of germany. i dont think the cold war was avoidable. communist designs for expansion and mirrored what hitler had just tried to accomplish. but now the world was more sensitive to that ploy and the grid lock ensued...with each side jockying for position.


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 14, 2011)

Communism is not about the Russians. It just so happened that Russia was where the 'utopia' was hatched in 1917 - and so the *Soviets* carried the torch of international class warfare. I believe the American government made trade-offs with Stalin (the same way Churchill did) displacing American casualties with Soviet casualties. The war wasn't over for Stalin in May, 1945 .... and the world had never faced anything quite like the Soviets in Berlin before. (Russians in Paris after Waterloo is hardly the same ).

Hence - the cold war. Nuclear arm wrestling.

MM


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## nuuumannn (Nov 15, 2011)

bobbysocks said:


> the US was...i cant figure out if we were woefully naive, playing along in hopes of getting something, or just out played.



I find the US isolationaist stance , as you say, Bobbysocks, naive. It was quite difficult to understand why America behaved the way it did at the time (in the 30s and early 40s). FDR definitely wanted a crack at the Germans, but Nazi sympathisers, and there were a few in the US at the beginning of the war made it difficult for the US to intervene in Europe directly. Ignorance of what was happening in the Soviet Union was something that was going on around the world, however; as so few realised the horrors that were taking place under Stalin - enforced collectivisation of farming, which resulted in the brutal treatment of the country's own agricultural industry, purges that robbed the nation's vital industries of talented and skilled work force - all of this was only to the detriment of the Soviet Union. Nevertheless, everyone knew that Stalin was a man to be wary of. Despite this there was much pandering to him, shamefully so - even after the war. Witness the gifting of British Rolls Royce gas turbines to the Soviets by Clement Attlee in 1946; one of the most bizarre turns carried out by the British post war. He was a paranoid, fiercely private and guarded individual; this explains his reign of terror to a certain degree, however illogical it was.


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 15, 2011)

".... Ignorance of what was happening in the Soviet Union was something that was going on around the world ...."

'Ignorance' - misrepresentation might be a more accurate word - and the leftist media of the time were active parters with the Soviets in portraying the "vision" of the workers paradise. And things are no different now, the media simply moved on to other false prophets - equally destructive to humankind and progress.

MM


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## Readie (Nov 15, 2011)

nuuumannn said:


> Witness the gifting of British Rolls Royce gas turbines to the Soviets by Clement Attlee in 1946; one of the most bizarre turns carried out by the British post war.




Yes and no.
We were bankrupt and it was era of 'export or die'.
We also missed 'opportunities' from the Germans...who in their right mind would refuse the VW Beetle but, accept the little 2 stoke engine that Villiers used in umpteen forgettable 1950's motorcycles?
The USA gained the most with the German rocket technology that formed the basis of NASA and ICBM's.

'Bizarre turns?' Its our national speciality ! I'm English and some of the decisions made leave me open mouthed in amazement 

John


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 15, 2011)

".... I'm English and some of the decisions made leave me open mouthed in amazement "

And some *don't* - like not buying into the Euro .... 

MM


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## Readie (Nov 15, 2011)

michaelmaltby said:


> ".... I'm English and some of the decisions made leave me open mouthed in amazement "
> 
> And some *don't* - like not buying into the Euro ....
> 
> MM



Er yes....thank god we avoided the wretched Euro Zone. 
I voted 'no' in the original referendum when Heath took into the then EEC. I have reservations about 'Federal Europe'. But, that is another topic

John


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## bobbysocks (Nov 15, 2011)

nuuumannn said:


> I find the US isolationaist stance , as you say, Bobbysocks, naive. It was quite difficult to understand why America behaved the way it did at the time (in the 30s and early 40s). FDR definitely wanted a crack at the Germans,.



i whole heartedly agree. it was naive. just as i believe the cold war was unavoidable..i believe our involvement in ww2 was as well. but it was a cross between wishful thinking and selfishness that i feel lead the sentiments in the US at that time. i have not read a whole lot on this so i am far from an expert. but its like the old saying " what happens in Rome stays in Rome"... america still had the horiffic visions of the trench war of ww1 and ( because it was woefully unprepared for that war as well ) was not interested in a repeat perfromance. europe was far away ( out of sight out of mind ) and germany had done nothing to us ( YET ) so why throw our hat in the ring? also i believe many americans hoped that it would ( by some miracle ) resolve itself with out any further implications and everyone would be happy again. FDR could see the writing on the wall even if the rest of the country couldnt and did a lot of jockeying to give support to england. from what i understand the whole concept of "lend-lease" came about because US law prohibited us from sending arms and supplies to countries who were at war or involved in a war. US ships were sold as "scrap" and other tricks were used. these were semi underhanded bendings of laws that probably would have gotten FDR in trouble had we never entered the war. but because we did they were "ingenous ideas".


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## Readie (Nov 15, 2011)

I agree BS, but you have to consider the cultural links between the USA and Britain at the time. I have referred to the 'English speaking world' before on forum and I think that this is the nub of it. 
60+ years later our countries find ourselves as the main protagonists in the 'war on terror' while others sit on the sidelines and watch the results roll in.
John


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## bobbysocks (Nov 15, 2011)

agreed 100%. and i think the result of the that war the relationship between our 2 countries was diffferent. where the US was fairly isolationist before...after ww1. after ww2 it was one of mutual respect, confidence, and parntership for the most part.


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## nuuumannn (Nov 16, 2011)

The 'Special Relationship' between Britain and the USA hasn't always been as rosy as what we might have been led to believe by the likes of Mr Blair et al - as you probably know. Post WW2 the US jealously guarded from its allies its secrets learned in the Manhattan project and the British were effectively told that they were on their own. American rocketry experiments were also a forbidden zone for the British; there was even tales of a bunch of V2 components that the Americans 'stole' from the British in Germany, but because the Brits sent a destroyer after the carrier escaping with the equipment, which included a complete rocket, the loot was returned. In the early years of US rocketry, teams working for both branches of the armed forces (prior to 1947 there was no USAF) refused to co-operate with each other - von Braun was employed by the US Army, who funded his laboratories at Huntsville, Alabama - so there was no dissemination of information within the US, let alone with a foreign power. 

Britain's rocketry went in a completely different direction, being led by a single non forces orientated government department whose research was based on the findings at Kiel from the Helmuth Walther works. Virtually all of Britain's early rocket motors had HTP (hydrogen peroxide) as an oxidiser. Its initial rockets were not plagued with as many failures as the American programs, although the Brits were overshadowed somewhat in scale by the Americans, they had the biggest rocket range in the world in Australia.

Anyhoo, an area in which the US were jealous of the British was that of intelligence. By the end of WW2, the British Government Code and Cypher School (later GCHQ) was the biggest intelligence organisation in the world and the Americans were secretly intimidated by the fact that Britain's intel network spanned the globe. This led directly to the creation of the CIA, the NSA and other intelligence agencies - some based on British models in the USA from 1947. 



michaelmaltby said:


> 'Ignorance' - misrepresentation might be a more accurate word


 I dunno, Mike, very few people outside of the Soviet Union were aware of the horrors that ordinary people were enduring over there under Stalin. There was a great deal of ignorance of what was actually going on in the Soviet Union; Stalin's secretive nature took care of that. Propaganda reports of the 'Socialist Utopia' were largely lies perpetuated by communist parties around the world. One of the farcical aspects of this utopia was the fact that virtually every attempt at overhauling and collectivising Soviet agriculture failed.

From Stalin to Krushchev, their plans were fruitless (literally) and the Soviet Union relied on imported grain and produce throughout much of its existence. Oddly enough, the biggest importer of grain to the Soviet Union in the '60s was - The USA! In the 1970s, threats of technological escalation by the Soviets forced the US government to threaten the end of and eventually cease the supply of grain to its political opponent, but until then, the Soviet people suffered from famine and hardship because of their leaders' bungled attempts at reform.


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 16, 2011)

One example of what I am referring to, Nuuumannn .... 

Walter Duranty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MM


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## Readie (Nov 16, 2011)

nuuumannn said:


> The 'Special Relationship' between Britain and the USA hasn't always been as rosy as what we might have been led to believe by the likes of Mr Blair et al - as you probably know.



Indeed not. Mr Blair brought us national shame by snivelling around Mr Bush 'Yo Blair'..very annoying. I don't blame Bush in the slightest...Blair annoyed us too with his incessant grin. Give me a miserable PM any day.
But, whatever the squabbling and general unpleasantness as been about it always blows over....bit like a family really.
The simple fact that many non English speaking countries cannot accept is not being part of the USA-Commonwealth-British club. 
We have been through too much together and the way sabres are being rattled in Europe and other volatile areas I rather suspect that we'll be in it all again.
Funny old game eh...
John


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## Readie (Nov 16, 2011)

nuuumannn said:


> I dunno, Mike, very few people outside of the Soviet Union were aware of the horrors that ordinary people were enduring over there under Stalin. There was a great deal of ignorance of what was actually going on in the Soviet Union; Stalin's secretive nature took care of that. Propaganda reports of the 'Socialist Utopia' were largely lies perpetuated by communist parties around the world. One of the farcical aspects of this utopia was the fact that virtually every attempt at overhauling and collectivising Soviet agriculture failed.
> 
> From Stalin to Krushchev, their plans were fruitless (literally) and the Soviet Union relied on imported grain and produce throughout much of its existence. Oddly enough, the biggest importer of grain to the Soviet Union in the '60s was - The USA! In the 1970s, threats of technological escalation by the Soviets forced the US government to threaten the end of and eventually cease the supply of grain to its political opponent, but until then, the Soviet people suffered from famine and hardship because of their leaders' bungled attempts at reform.




The Russians are tightening their hold on European balls with oil and gas supplies.
Big mistake letting those lunatics get into this position of power over us...
John


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## bobbysocks (Nov 16, 2011)

haha...i didnt say it was a match made in heaven and they lived happily ever after! every body is going to try to feather their own nest first. and like you said the US was jealous of the brits because they had built a very good and efficient intelligence agency. knowledge is power and on a grand scale when it comes to nations and political intrigue. but its like...yeah, i can smack my brother but you better not!! but when push comes to shove we will be sitting on the same side...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 16, 2011)

Readie said:


> We have been through too much together and the way sabres are being rattled in Europe and other volatile areas I rather suspect that we'll be in it all again.
> Funny old game eh...
> John



I honestly don't see any indication of it ever going that far again. At least not in the near future and at least not in with the Western European nations fighting against each other. If anything the threat will come from the east again.


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## Readie (Nov 16, 2011)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I honestly don't see any indication of it ever going that far again. At least not in the near future and at least not in with the Western European nations fighting against each other. If anything the threat will come from the east again.



'Europe' is a big place these days Chris. The 'north - south' divide is very real and volatile nations will only take so much.
if a nation is bankrupted, humiliated and forced into austerity measures that span a decade or more do you think those folks will just sit and take it?
I know that you are not concerned but, I sure as hell am !
John


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## Readie (Nov 16, 2011)

bobbysocks said:


> haha...i didnt say it was a match made in heaven and they lived happily ever after! every body is going to try to feather their own nest first. and like you said the US was jealous of the brits because they had built a very good and efficient intelligence agency. knowledge is power and on a grand scale when it comes to nations and political intrigue. but its like...yeah, i can smack my brother but you better not!! but when push comes to shove we will be sitting on the same side...



You have hit the nail on the head there BS.
Well said.
John


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## pbfoot (Nov 16, 2011)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I honestly don't see any indication of it ever going that far again. At least not in the near future and at least not in with the Western European nations fighting against each other. If anything the threat will come from the east again.


I don't know what the dividing line between Eastern and Western Europe but it wasn't all that long ago the Balkan Countries were doing a number on each other


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## Glider (Nov 16, 2011)

I believe there is another reason why Russia will not attack anyone including Europe and that is demographics. Russia is a huge country with a small and falling population. Current population is about 143 million, the UK alone is approx 62 million, Germany 82 million, France 65 million. So 143 million is a lot less than Europe and a fraction of China.
Current estimates are that the population will fall to approx 111 million by 2050. With a population of this level given the size of the country they will do well to maintain the country and its infrastructure, let alone grow the economy to maintain a large modern army anything close to to the size that has existed before. 

If there is a danger it is in the far east where China has a massive population and is running out of space and resources while Russia has the space, resources and will lack the population in the right place. The trend in technology is closing fast as well, China has improved leaps an bounds and Russia is losing the edge. Remember that a high proportion of your electronic goods are built in China, not Russia.


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 16, 2011)

.... “Germany and the U.K. are on a collision course,” Jan Techau, director of the Brussels-based European center of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said in a phone interview. “The clashes we see now about deepening ties in the EU have always been there, but the crisis makes them more visible. Now it’s crunch time.

”But despite the protests from Whitehall, the Germans were having none of it. Volker Kauder, the parliamentary leader of the Christian Democratic Union, said in a speech to the party congress in Leipzig that “*Britain also carries responsibility for making Europe a success. Only being after their own benefit and refusing to contribute is not the message we’re letting the British get away with.” *Bloomberg quotes a source who say that Britain and France are on a collision course and the onlookers are holding their collective breaths. Cameron is headed to Berlin on Friday to see if he can come to an agreement with Merkel. …

Speaking in London last night, Cameron laid out his opposition to German ideas, hours after Merkel had told the CDU conference that it’s time to push for closer political ties and tighter budget rules.

“We should look skeptically at grand plans and utopian visions; we’ve a right to ask what the European Union should and shouldn’t do,” Cameron said. Europe should be “outward- looking, with its eyes to the world, not gazing inwards” and should have “the flexibility of a network, not the rigidity of a bloc,” he said….

“*In all the figures that we bandy around about the financial-transactions tax, it is worth bearing in mind the fact that around 80 percent of it would be raised from businesses in the United Kingdom,” Cameron told the House of Commons Nov. 7. “I am sometimes tempted to ask the French whether they would like a cheese tax.*”

The war is now _economic_ ... but the consequences are every bit as real.

MM


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## kettbo (Nov 17, 2011)

Some good points Glider!
China vs a declining Russian Sphere
China vs Taiwan
Iran vs anybody that lines up

I miss getting under the desk for air raid drills
Bet all the back yard shelters have deteriorated or have become mushroom farms
I was BLACKHORSE, Border Cav, led patrols along the IGB (E-W German Border) 88-89, saw the wall come down and border open up later in 89.
Also DIV CAV, 2ID, was within running distance to the Korean DMZ and Imjin River. Real Cold War experience!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 17, 2011)

michaelmaltby said:


> The war is now _economic_ ... but the consequences are every bit as real.
> 
> MM



Agreed, and I do not think it will get any worse than that. The western European nations are too close today to let it get any further than that. Germany has no desire to go to war with the UK or any other nation as a matter of fact. The German people would not stand for it, nor is the German govt. wanting anything of that nature. 

If a real military threat arises it will not come from within Europe, it will come from the outside, and the main European powers (UK, Germany, France, Italy, etc) will all stand together. There is not doubt in my mind. There is no need to think anything otherwise as well.



kettbo said:


> I miss getting under the desk for air raid drills
> Bet all the back yard shelters have deteriorated or have become mushroom farms
> I was BLACKHORSE, Border Cav, led patrols along the IGB (E-W German Border) 88-89, saw the wall come down and border open up later in 89.



Were you with 1/4 CAV? I did a deployment to Kosovo and then Iraq with 1/4 CAV. Good bunch of guys. 

Small world with the wall. I was up in Berlin when it came down as well. Of course I was just a military dependent at the time...


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## Lucky13 (Nov 17, 2011)

Did the name 'the cold war', come from that the soldiers had to stay out in the snow all day?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 17, 2011)

Lucky13 said:


> Did the name 'the cold war', come from that the soldiers had to stay out in the snow all day?



It is because it was not a "HOT" war. The two sides were not shooting at each other. At least not in the public's eye.


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## Readie (Nov 17, 2011)

Glider said:


> I believe there is another reason why Russia will not attack anyone including Europe and that is demographics. Russia is a huge country with a small and falling population. Current population is about 143 million, the UK alone is approx 62 million, Germany 82 million, France 65 million. So 143 million is a lot less than Europe and a fraction of China.
> Current estimates are that the population will fall to approx 111 million by 2050. With a population of this level given the size of the country they will do well to maintain the country and its infrastructure, let alone grow the economy to maintain a large modern army anything close to to the size that has existed before.
> 
> If there is a danger it is in the far east where China has a massive population and is running out of space and resources while Russia has the space, resources and will lack the population in the right place. The trend in technology is closing fast as well, China has improved leaps an bounds and Russia is losing the edge. Remember that a high proportion of your electronic goods are built in China, not Russia.



Good points, but...Russia can attack us economically with oil and gas. That'll bring the EU house of cards down quicker than a military strike...
John


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## Readie (Nov 17, 2011)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> It is because it was not a "HOT" war. The two sides were not shooting at each other. At least not in the public's eye.



At the end of World War II, English author and journalist George Orwell used the term Cold War in his essay “You and the Atomic Bomb”, published October 19, 1945, in the British newspaper Tribune. Contemplating a world living in the shadow of the threat of nuclear warfare, he warned of a “peace that is no peace”, which he called a permanent “cold war”,

Orwell directly referred to that war as the ideological confrontation between the Soviet Union and the Western powers. 
Moreover, in The Observer of March 10, 1946, Orwell wrote that “after the Moscow conference last December, Russia began to make a ‘cold war’ on Britain and the British Empire.”

Lifted from wiki, but this is my understanding of the phrase 'cold war'
John


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 17, 2011)

".... The German people would not stand for it, nor is the German govt. wanting anything of that nature. "

It is my understanding that various German STATE legislatures have rejected the idea of providing free rides to the countries in Europe now facing sovereign debt crises. As hard workers and moralists, the German people seem to be saying enough is enough. I am not suggesting that this will lead to "shots" being fired. But I am stating that Europe has surrendered its future (no children, large pensions, massive social entitlements, unsustainable levels of gov't spending, and huge levels of consumer DEBT) and have chosen to only live for the present. Europe is being overthrown by its fertile immigrants who do not share Europe's values or history.

"That's the way the world ends, not with a bang but with a whimper".*
* T.S. Eliot

MM


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## Readie (Nov 17, 2011)

michaelmaltby said:


> ".... The German people would not stand for it, nor is the German govt. wanting anything of that nature. "
> 
> It is my understanding that various German STATE legislatures have rejected the idea of providing free rides to the countries in Europe now facing sovereign debt crises. As hard workers and moralists, the German people seem to be saying enough is enough. I am not suggesting that this will lead to "shots" being fired. But I am stating that Europe has surrendered its future (no children, large pensions, massive social entitlements, unsustainable levels of gov't spending, and huge levels of consumer DEBT) and have chosen to only live for the present. Europe is being overthrown by its fertile immigrants who do not share Europe's values or history.
> 
> ...



A lot of truths there Michael. We have been over run by the former Soviet bloc countries, other countries that lied to get into the EU /EZ , counties with an idiot in charge who amassed a mountain of unpayable debt and the final straw is the countries that have contributed virtually nothing and just taken. 
No wonder Frau Merkle is fed up....so, are we.
The wheels are going to come off the pram very soon as we all have danced with the devil (bankers) and got our arses well and truly fried.
There was me looking forward to a secure retirement. I should coca.
John


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 17, 2011)

michaelmaltby said:


> ".... The German people would not stand for it, nor is the German govt. wanting anything of that nature. "
> 
> It is my understanding that various German STATE legislatures have rejected the idea of providing free rides to the countries in Europe now facing sovereign debt crises. As hard workers and moralists, the German people seem to be saying enough is enough. I am not suggesting that this will lead to "shots" being fired. But I am stating that Europe has surrendered its future (no children, large pensions, massive social entitlements, unsustainable levels of gov't spending, and huge levels of consumer DEBT) and have chosen to only live for the present. Europe is being overthrown by its fertile immigrants who do not share Europe's values or history.
> 
> ...



You are certainly correct. The German people are fed up with the "free rides". They are the ones that are paying for it, and the government never asked them if they wanted to be a part of it. 

I too don't agree with the free ride BS. 

I repeat however, it will not lead to Germany invading a country over it. The days of that happening ended over 66 years ago...


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## Glider (Nov 17, 2011)

Readie said:


> Good points, but...Russia can attack us economically with oil and gas. That'll bring the EU house of cards down quicker than a military strike...
> John



Yes and no. Certainly Russia did and at the current time could hold Europe to ransom by its control of fuel and power, but having played that card it is loosing much of its threat. The mantra used to be the power at the lowest cost, now security of supply is at least as important. Here in the uK the possibility of using shale oil/Gas is being hotly debated, the stocks are vast and should it get the go ahead we will be self sufficient for many years. Or to put it another way in the UK there are approx 4 billion cubic meters of unexplored gas reserves in the North Sea and approx 130 billion cubic meters of gas reserves in shale gas. It should be noted that many countries have deposits of this nature but the only country to use it in quantity is the USA. 

You have all heard of the phrase, Necessity is the Mother of Invention. Well by playing the threat card, Russia has shown the Necessity and Invention is coming on line. The following is a good article on the topic.

Energy crisis is postponed as new gas rescues the world - Telegraph


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 17, 2011)

".... we all have danced with the devil (bankers) and got our arses well and truly fried."

I'm no fan of bankers.  That said, they fufill a need - and it is that consumer need (envy, status, instant gratification, bigger, better, faster, more ... etc.) that is the devil. In the Midddle Ages, European countries (including GB) expelled their Jewish populations and expropriated all their assets in order to liberate the wealth they were holding. With hindsight to guide us, we know now how misguided actions of that sort were. Spain (for example) saw a New World of gold and plunder come in one door and piss away out another door without gaining anything of substance for the infusion (except religious wars and the
Armada Fleet ). By expelling their Jewsh money lenders, Spain deprived themselves of the knowledge and means to retain and invest their wealth.

I do not have much respect for bankers. But my perspective is coloured by the fact that Canadian banks are the best in the world. As taxpayers we have not had to bail our banks out. In the 1930's, no Canadian banks failed. So I believe that banks and bankers can play important roles as long as they are governed by hard-headed populist realism.

When the Bill Clinton gov't elected to ensure that poor people could buy houses that they couldn't afford, the writing was on the wall. Bankers, being bankers, said (to themselves) OK, if that's what you want Mr. Clinton we'll do it, but make money in the process and off-load the risk as much as possible. Outcome: Fanny and Freddie. 

The root of all that is wrong today is the love of other people's money.

To those who might claim I am O.T.  ..... I say: Cold War "after shocks"

MM
Proud Canadian


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## Readie (Nov 17, 2011)

michaelmaltby said:


> ".... we all have danced with the devil (bankers) and got our arses well and truly fried."
> 
> I'm no fan of bankers.  That said, they fufill a need - and it is that consumer need (envy, status, instant gratification, bigger, better, faster, more ... etc.) that is the devil. In the Midddle Ages, European countries (including GB) expelled their Jewish populations and expropriated all their assets in order to liberate the wealth they were holding. With hindsight to guide us, we know now how misguided actions of that sort were. Spain (for example) saw a New World of gold and plunder come in one door and piss away out another door without gaining anything of substance for the infusion (except religious wars and the
> Armada Fleet ). By expelling their Jewsh money lenders, Spain deprived themselves of the knowledge and means to retain and invest their wealth.
> ...




You make an interesting point Michael.
Your historical points about the British and Jews are correct. To our shame.
I would also add that the Wall Street crash can be directly attrituted to greed and over extending credit. The Bankers were responsible for the over extenstion but, not peoples greed.
The 'South Sea Bubble' is another example of finanical ineptitude.

So, spin forward to the ever smiling Mr Blair in 1997... New Labour started the big sell out and courted allsorts of ghastly people, bankers and er...a certain Egyptian. Yes, 'we' had 'good times' with a housing boom, credit coming out of our ears, new cars, a new generation of young Brits that had this wonderfull sense of entitlement.... But, it was all built on sand.
Ordinary run of the mill Brits could not afford fancy detached house, a his and hers Audi / BMW, holidays in Nice and an endless spend spend spend culture.

We have hit the buffers and people are angry.
The Blairs have sailed into the eternal sunset on millions of pounds a years talking bollocks to anyone foolish enough to listen and we have to pick up the pieces.

Do we learn though ? Somehow I doubt it. This will blow over, like the EU / EZ crisis. Europe has too much to lose. 
Demoracy is under threat with the unholy alliances getting rid of the Italian fool and basically sorting the Greeks out but, war? That'll never happen. Chris is quite right about that.

When this is all over people will want the 'good times' back....whatever the future cost is.
Call me a cynical old bastard if you like.

The Swedes, like the Canadians have it sorted.
We don't..

John


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 17, 2011)

And Mr. Branson's Vigin just picked up another troubled "bank" (Northern Rock) from beleagured British taxpayers ... as we speak .

".... but, war? That'll never happen." 

Is it _war_ if a shot isn't fired and the "enemy" just walks in the front door?

MM


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## nuuumannn (Nov 17, 2011)

This is fascinating stuff - another European war? I suspect all the political bluster in Europe is just finger pointing. This is, as most have indicated, an economic crisis (probably more appropriate than 'war'; if anyone understands the difference between the two, its continental Europeans) and will take a considerable amount of head scratching to rectify. Blame, if we feel it's necessary to do so is easily laid on the doorstep of 'immigrants', but I suspect mismanagement of local economies myself, as John has pointed out above. The weaker economies have leaned on the stronger ones since the creation of the EU and I suspect that with a few of these countries, even without the Euro, this slide into bankruptcy would have happened regardless. 

Mike, I read that piece on Duranty; very interesting; I can't say I had heard of him, but nevertheless, the fact that few accepted that such brutality was going on rarely knew of the scale of it. Although Duranty himself might have 'admitted' to it in his analysis of what makes the Soviet Union tick, it is not uncommon for us to brush off such things because of a lack of acceptance that one could be so barbaric to one's own people, although Stalin was Georgian by birth (born Joseb Jugashvili), so misrepresentation is probably right in a sense, but that which the reporters covered from within the Soviet Union at the time was barely scratching the surface. The extent of the gulag network and the activities of the secret police were horrors that we in the west could not fathom occurring to us.

I once dated an East German girl, who was unaware that less than a mile from her apartment in an East Berlin suburb was an active Stasi detainment centre of torture originally established by the NKVD post-war (Hohenshoenhausen). An hour further north by train was the former Sachsenhausen concentration camp at Oranienburg, which, according to the memorial there today states that more people were killed there by the Soviets between 1945 and 1952 than when the Nazis ran it. (Heinkel at Oranienburg used to rely on local labour provided by inmates at Sachsenhausen; the Nazis' "model" concentration camp they showed the world's media at the time of the Berlin Olympics in 1936, to prove just how humane they were to their political prisoners!)

Have you guys heard what's intimidating the Chinese and Indonesians latey? Barack Obama wants to station Marines in Australia and Julia Gillard has approved of closer military relations between the two nations, so a bigger US presense in the Pacific, as Obama states; "Make no mistake; we're here to stay..."

He says that a lot doesn't he? "Make no mistake..."


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## Readie (Nov 17, 2011)

michaelmaltby said:


> And Mr. Branson's Vigin just picked up another troubled "bank" (Northern Rock) from beleagured British taxpayers ... as we speak .
> 
> ".... but, war? That'll never happen."
> 
> ...



Nothing is guaranteed I guess...I don't believe that the original EU member states would declare war on each other. 
We are surrounded by our enemies so who knows who will walk in through the front door?

The 'War on Terror' isn't making us friends either but, that lot can take a flying **** as far as I'm concerned.

John


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## Readie (Nov 17, 2011)

nuuumannn said:


> This is fascinating stuff - another European war? I suspect all the political bluster in Europe is just finger pointing. This is, as most have indicated, an economic crisis (probably more appropriate than 'war'; if anyone understands the difference between the two, its continental Europeans) and will take a considerable amount of head scratching to rectify. Blame, if we feel it's necessary to do so is easily laid on the doorstep of 'immigrants', but I suspect mismanagement of local economies myself, as John has pointed out above. The weaker economies have leaned on the stronger ones since the creation of the EU and I suspect that with a few of these countries, even without the Euro, this slide into bankruptcy would have happened regardless.
> 
> 
> Have you guys heard what's intimidating the Chinese and Indonesians latey? Barack Obama wants to station Marines in Australia and Julia Gillard has approved of closer military relations between the two nations, so a bigger US presense in the Pacific, as Obama states; "Make no mistake; we're here to stay..."
> ...




I rather suspect that Frau Merkles remarks have been deliberately interpreted by the sensationalism press.
Her comment that European peace cannot guaranteed for the 50 years was just that...a comment. Who knows what the world will be like in 50 years anyway.

The Greeks should never have been allowed into the EU /EZ but, having got in they carried on as if their was no tomorrow spending on public services without bothering to collect the taxes every other man pays. A shambles waiting to happen and..oh, its the Germans fault. Yeah right. I hope the Germans stick to their guns on this issue.
The Italians...what can I say? A debt mountain only they could accrue.
The Irish. Spend, spend, spend and then wonder why it all goes horribly wrong.
The Spanish Portuguese are poor countries, basically a peasant culture at heart. Little to contribute to the coffers in Brussels.
The former soviet bloc countries also got into the EU. That was a given for purely political reasons. A buffer against aggression from the east and better 'in' than 'out'. They have brought a lot to the UK including an admirable work ethic that some of my countryman could do well to adopt.
The Germans. The economic powerhouse of the EU /EZ.. wisely making things that people actually want to buy.
The French. Dreamers of the Federal Europe for 60 years. What exactly they are up to at any given time is a mystery....
The British. We kept out of the EZ and have a fractured relationship with the EU. In our hearts we are an island race and not part of Europe despite all the fine speechs in the House of Parliament. ( mainly for consumption abroad I'll wager). The mistake we made was not joining after the Treaty of Rome, being a Jonnie come lately is never good and the other EU member states are quite right to question our commitment.

The Americans will not let China, North Korea or any other tin pot country threaten them. Maybe if 9/11 hadn't happened it may be different but, it did and I don't blame the USA for looking after itself. They alone have the global reach to achieve this.

John


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 17, 2011)

I agree John, however the Germans are at fault as much as anyone. The EU is destined to fail in my opinion. The ones who will be hurt however are the common people, because the Govt's of the perspective countries are not including them in the process. 

There are troubled times ahead, not just for Europe, but for the global community. 

Oh well, as a moderator I will step outside of these discussions because they are on the verge of political (Please forgive me, but I must because of my position). You all may carry on however, just don't let get out of hand (none of you have done so, but as all political discussions are, they can get out of control).


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 17, 2011)

".... mismanagement of local economies".

Mismanagement of EXPECTATIONS. Like the shampoo commercial says , "I'm worth it". Sure, baby, sure.

"... Julia Gillard has approved of closer military relations between the two nations." Good thing. The USA cannot afford to weaken its position anywhere. Mind you, "afford" and pay for $$$ may not mean quite the same thing. [It is my understanding that Ms G. is quite sweet on President O].

Listen guys, I'm *not *advocating war in Europe or predicting it. Personally, I like Angela, and I don't blame the Germans for coming down hard on deadbeats. But Europeans have been so in love with themselves and their entitlements .... while Kosovo ... and ethnic cleansing went on in their presence .... that it makes a North American wonder. Why has Europe been so neglectful of its own security ...? The USA should NEVER have had to be the lead hand in the Balkins .... made no friends and got no thanks. 

We, in Canada, have been just as guilty ... letting America pay for our defense in blood and treasure. That has started to change, thank The Lord, but (as my Mum use to say about Communism in Canada in the '30s) " ... it was a near thing, a close call."

Nations and people and governments that refuse to be responsible and accountable for their actions deserve whatever fate befalls them. I am a big fan of the Finns . They know how to play Canadian style hockey and to turn lemons into lemonade.

MM


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## nuuumannn (Nov 17, 2011)

michaelmaltby;839208Good thing. The USA cannot afford to weaken its position anywhere. Mind you said:


> .



Yep on both counts. Didn't they look sweet together, all doe eyes and wide smiles, President O "Charmer"! "Make no mistake, Ms Gillard, you are the purdyest Aussie Prime Minister since Bob Hawke!"


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 17, 2011)

And then, there's this:


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdob6QRLRJU_!

What did Churchill say about democracy ... 

MM


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## Readie (Nov 18, 2011)

Nigel Farage  a man with no credibility here. I could be rude and say he is a complete and utter arse but, that would be unacceptable.

Another view...Why Europe needs enemies | Presseurop (English)

I have to admit that when I read articles about the EU I don't automatically include Britain in anything affects 'Europe'.
I'm not being clever or distrustfull of the EU its just my mind set.

The crisis and three Europes | Presseurop (English).

The 'multi speed' Europe is an interesting concept.

John


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## Readie (Nov 18, 2011)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Oh well, as a moderator I will step outside of these discussions because they are on the verge of political (Please forgive me, but I must because of my position). You all may carry on however, just don't let get out of hand (none of you have done so, but as all political discussions are, they can get out of control).



That's a shame Chris. Your insight would be welcome in this discussion.
John


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 18, 2011)

Readie said:


> That's a shame Chris. Your insight would be welcome in this discussion.
> John



No, I can't sorry. We actually have a no politics policy on this website...


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 18, 2011)

".... the Germans are at fault as much as anyone. The EU is destined to fail in my opinion. The ones who will be hurt however are the common people, because the Govt's of the perspective countries are not including them in the process. There are troubled times ahead, not just for Europe, but for the global community. "

Thanks for your insight, Chris . I agree with your view. Sorry to lose you to the referee's chair .

"... The 'multi speed' Europe is an interesting concept." It would be easier, I am told, for countries like Greece to step outside the EU but retain the Euro than vice vera.

I posted Nigel Farage because he is unknown in N. America and I was curious about his credibility. He certainly is rude, but (IMHO) he makes some valid points visa a vis the democratic process ... to whit, Italy and Greece building gov'ts of technocrats to deal with the fiscal crisis. How deep is the democratic process if people can not agree to their salvation. Is the EU democratic ... or administrative? Was the EU EVER meant to be "democratic" ...?

Great links, John. 

MM


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## Readie (Nov 18, 2011)

michaelmaltby said:


> Is the EU democratic ... or administrative? Was the EU EVER meant to be "democratic" ...?
> MM



Now that is a very good question.

EU democracy
http://www.fedtrust.co.uk/admin/uploads/FedT_LAD.pdf

Welcome to the European Parliament

I think the nub of our problem with the EU is that our sovereignty is entrenched in our national psychic and we struggle to surrender to the dictates of the EU Parliament on matters like the contents of the Great British banger.

John


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## razor1uk (Nov 18, 2011)

I believe the EU is administrative in a democratic wrapper, believing itself above all its members; how can it make decisions for each member country without ignoring or loosing in translation the conflicting needs, the wishes of others and without being in a conflict of interest between them. 

European war, or war anywhere else is always a prospect, and it always starts with economic warfare or reasons first....

I shouldn't say more as it would be too political and so unpolitically correct in a political way that hawks would accuse me of various -isms.

P.S. all the current tensions are increasing the rise of nationalism; this can be good to a point, but past a certain level it becomes bad, but as of yet (in the developing current situations around EU and European area), there's no clear guidline as to where the balance point between them is....


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## nuuumannn (Nov 18, 2011)

I'm still not convinced about war in Europe, Razor1UK, although I agree with your comments about the EU. Post war Germany has been built on billions of dollars supplied to the Bundestag by the US government; there is also a sizeable US military presence in Germany, although it has been scaled down somewhat since the end of the cold war. I doubt the Americans would stand back and allow Europeans go at it hammer and tongs after their considerable investment in Europe's stability during the Cold War and after. I suspect the 'Special Relationship would come into a new phase if such a thing happened. 

Oh, by the way, Bobbysocks, my comments in an earlier post were not to contradict yours, but to emphasise how subjective that relationship is. No bad karma intended. 

I would also imagine that ordinary Europeans would not react too kindly to any declarations of hostility. Remember the public's reaction to Tony Blair's acceptance of Bush's request for help in the invasion of Iraq, in Britain and in France and Germany there were protests. I think most Europeans are quite aborrent of the prospect of war, even abroad. Let's hope it stays that way.


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## razor1uk (Nov 18, 2011)

I think the Germans would be amongst the last of the Europeans to war - why assume when the phrase '..war in Europe..' being in a sentence from an Englishman means automatically 'Germany'... 

Now there arent borders as such within EU, with emmergrants, immergrants and economic migrants - were more mixed up inter-mixed; diffusing nationalities, yet it stokes the need or kneejerk of 'locals' to become more nationalistic = a bad recipie imho of future hindsight - its like a hedged bet (50/50).


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## nuuumannn (Nov 18, 2011)

razor1uk said:


> why assume when the phrase '..war in Europe..' being in a sentence from an Englishman means automatically 'Germany'...



I would have thought that would have been rather obvious!


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## razor1uk (Nov 18, 2011)

We've forght more against other 'now' EU countries than against Germany or what became Germany in ha last 700 years... its only stereotyping and the previous 2 big 'wars' that give that 'slant' - I don't think the last opponent will always be the next one.
Its more likely to be many localised mini civil wars as mixing populations sort out there differences of cultures, historical truths lies, economic educational cultures etc, than a full on military vs. millitary...


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## nuuumannn (Nov 19, 2011)

razor1uk said:


> We've forght more against other 'now' EU countries than against Germany or what became Germany in ha last 700 years... its only stereotyping and the previous 2 big 'wars' that give that 'slant' - I don't think the last opponent will always be the next one.
> Its more likely to be many localised mini civil wars as mixing populations sort out there differences of cultures, historical truths lies, economic educational cultures etc, than a full on military vs. millitary...



very true, Razor1UK. I reckon we'll probably see more riots and unrest of the civilian populations of poorer countries as the economic crunch rolls on and governments bungle attempts at making cut backs by taxing the ordinary citizens. Like the riots in the UK this year, people won't take their governments' incompetence for too long.

Oh, I hope you don't take my quip about the Germans too seriously  No bad karma intended.


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## Readie (Nov 19, 2011)

nuuumannn said:


> I would also imagine that ordinary Europeans would not react too kindly to any declarations of hostility. Remember the public's reaction to Tony Blair's acceptance of Bush's request for help in the invasion of Iraq, in Britain and in France and Germany there were protests. I think most Europeans are quite aborrent of the prospect of war, even abroad. Let's hope it stays that way.



I'll pick up on a point here, Mr Blair did the unforgiveable thing of lying to us about the true nature of Iraq's WoMD. Its not that the British are averse to a fight...part of me thinks that we almost need too.
Anyway. the USA had its own reasons for taking on Iraq and we would have joined in as we are allies and share the US outrage at 9/11. But, war on the basis of lies (half truths if you like) is never good and diminishs us all.

Your quip about 'European war' and 'Germany' being synonymous is not that far from the truth. The tabloid press is responsible for keeping that thought going in peoples mind. The local paper in Plymouth is priceless. If you can get to page 3 without the Blitz being mentioned and how beautifull Plymouth was before 'they' flattened it all in 1941 you are lucky. I'm fed up with reading the same old same old but, a lot of people aren't...

The tabloid press is dire and able to whip up certain sections of society into a frenzy. When the Falklands were invaded the tabloids made it sound like WW3 and young men were clamouring to join up and have a fight....shades of 1914? maybe. Do we learn ? nope.

The main question in my mind is why would we want to have another war in Europe and what possible good would come out. There is no enemy to defeat, no evil regime to conquer and we have everything to lose.
If we get to the stage of Europe having to defend itself against an aggressor that is another matter. We (the royal 'we') have to stand up and do whatever we need to do. British, French, Germans, Dutch...all of us stand to lose all we have if we are weak at the 11th hour.

John


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## razor1uk (Nov 19, 2011)

In the eyes of any victors when they look back, being weak or not at 5 mins to midnight means nothing if they/we/whomever won.
Regime, possibly the EU administration itself... but what happens after this economic cloud of depression lifts, what will survive, what won't, were are still in the after effects of the last 150 years, let alone the Yonger Dryas and what is shaping up now - Cold War, nah, it just thawed a little - MAD's still in place.

British press good at somethings, but to our nation, they are just inscesant, annoying, backstabbers acting as a gentlemans club wanna-be secret police with phone hacks, stealing packets of info and being so intrusive to those they target, no wonder Gazza drinks, whistle-blowers commit suicide or that youth/gang crime is spreading - it sells papers, and we the Brits put up, shut up and buy it.
But we are more likely to be truthful about events abroad or actually be allowed to show protests somewhere than most other nations I feel - mixed emotions about the press have I.


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## Readie (Nov 19, 2011)

1.7 million for that NoTW ginger horror. Some price to pay eh...

There is a global economic issue and no one will be unaffected.

It is ironic (to return to the Cold War) that the fears we had of a massive Soviet nuclear strike, the nuclear winter and all the radiation fall out have gone to be replaced with an economic 'melt down' and 'fall out'. Similar terms !!

I shudder to think what will happen when the oil starts to run out....

So, what do we do now?

John


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## razor1uk (Nov 19, 2011)

Buy all the pedal powered dynamos and link them to the charge storage batteries/capacitors, which inturn are linked to the national grid(s) and get ready in series/relay/en-rota to pedal like you've never predalled before... or use some sanitary pipe attachments to collect our own 'bio-gases' (when 'brewed') for refining for usage...


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## Readie (Nov 19, 2011)

razor1uk said:


> Buy all the pedal powered dynamos and link them to the charge storage batteries/capacitors, which inturn are linked to the national grid(s) and get ready in series/relay/en-rota to pedal like you've never predalled before... or use some sanitary pipe attachments to collect our own 'bio-gases' (when 'brewed') for refining for usage...



Haha..I'm pedalling mate and collecting gas....


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## razor1uk (Nov 19, 2011)

If the melody and structure of a song could maybe indicate Europes mixed feelings of now and when, without intending others to spotlight the nation from which it came, imho, 
Klaus Doldinger's - Das Boot full song might be it. 
Since it encompasses dispair, determination, hope resignation (not that kind of resignation - although some might wish for that meaning for some of their politico's...)


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 19, 2011)

Watch Turkey after a post Arab Spring middle east settles down. It doesn't need EU membership anymore ... Turkey will leave NATO and build its own sphere of influence with the Sunni Arab world ... 

If Israel takes out Iranian nuclear site(s) will there be war .... and if there is war ... who's side is the EU on?

Who will line up with Israel and who will stay out?

This thread is about the Cold War - a nuclear standoff between two systems: Marxist demand economy, and Capitalist corporate military industrial economy. The USA outlasted and outspent the Soviets and got better value for their tax dollars because their (our) system contains competition and free markets. Were that not true, Mr. Reagan's star wars gambit wouldn't have worked (been believable to the Soviets). 

The "peace dividend" was global penetration of Windows/Intel/MicroSoft computers.

The last country in the EU that wants war is Germany - banks _and_ people  A haircut is better than a shave .

MM


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## kettbo (Nov 19, 2011)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Were you with 1/4 CAV? I did a deployment to Kosovo and then Iraq with 1/4 CAV. Good bunch of guys.
> 
> Small world with the wall. I was up in Berlin when it came down as well. Of course I was just a military dependent at the time...



I was G Trp, 2/11 ACR out of Bad Kissingen. 1/4 Cav was out of Schweinfurt. 
Only a short bus ride of 30 minutes or so separated the bases.

Fact, BK was the Initial Aiming Point for the first raid on Schweinfurt. Short walk from 1/4 Cav barracks to the seat of ball bearing production!


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## Readie (Nov 20, 2011)

michaelmaltby said:


> If Israel takes out Iranian nuclear site(s) will there be war .... and if there is war ... who's side is the EU on?
> 
> Who will line up with Israel and who will stay out?
> 
> MM



The USA will line up with Israel.
The British will line line up with the American's
The rest of the EU ? By the time they all have stopped arguing the war will be over..or is that just a co incidence?

The "peace dividend" was global penetration of Windows/Intel/MicroSoft computers.

Don't forget the masters of selling the image of American freedom....Harley Davidson.



John


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 20, 2011)

"... Don't forget the masters of selling the image of American freedom....Harley Davidson."

OK. But you're comparing toys with transformational tools. 

MM


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## bobbysocks (Nov 20, 2011)

Readie said:


> I'll pick up on a point here, Mr Blair did the unforgiveable thing of lying to us about the true nature of Iraq's WoMD. John



I think we were all sold a bill of good with the WMDs. was it bad intel or a smoke screen? it did sound plausable...their deployment of Scud missles in the first gulf war....and use of gas on rioting factions of their own population and in various iranian conflicts. it was used as the great "legitimizer" of why we had to go in. when they were never discovered it left egg on more than one person's face...but what are you going to do? by then you are in deep and committed. this is the stuff conspiricy theories are made of....

the next war probably will be "economic" and instead of soldiers.. you will have repo men! if a country defaults...the others should simply repo it.


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## Readie (Nov 20, 2011)

michaelmaltby said:


> "... Don't forget the masters of selling the image of American freedom....Harley Davidson."
> 
> OK. But you're comparing toys with transformational tools.
> 
> MM



Toys maybe, but they are a perfect transformational mid life crisis tool ...


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## Readie (Nov 20, 2011)

bobbysocks said:


> I think we were all sold a bill of good with the WMDs. was it bad intel or a smoke screen? it did sound plausable...their deployment of Scud missles in the first gulf war....and use of gas on rioting factions of their own population and in various iranian conflicts. it was used as the great "legitimizer" of why we had to go in. when they were never discovered it left egg on more than one person's face...but what are you going to do? by then you are in deep and committed. this is the stuff conspiricy theories are made of....
> 
> the next war probably will be "economic" and instead of soldiers.. you will have repo men! if a country defaults...the others should simply repo it.



You could be right Bobby, Blair, what ever else he achieved, will always be the man who took us to war on a lie. Now, personally I think that the USA its allies ( ie Britain) had unfinished business in that area so, Iraq's days were numbered , like Libya. No one who blows up Pan Am planes and is involved with 9/11 gets away with it.
The real tragedy is this : David Kelly (weapons expert) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I like your repo idea. But, who wants Greece?

John


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 20, 2011)

Speaking of Greece ... this as a metaphor for the EU right now  :


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDY6bWT5oTM_

MM


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## Readie (Nov 21, 2011)

michaelmaltby said:


> Speaking of Greece ... this as a metaphor for the EU right now  :
> 
> 
> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDY6bWT5oTM_
> ...





Very good Michael. Better tyres needed to get out of the 'mud'....

There's a joke in there somewhere 

I wonder what this week will bring ?

John


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## N4521U (Nov 21, 2011)

Megastructures last night was a Typhoon sub being cut up in Russia......


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 21, 2011)

".... Better tires needed to get out of the 'mud'...." 

PLUS .... sometimes co-operation just isn't enough.

MM


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## Readie (Nov 21, 2011)

N4521U said:


> Megastructures last night was a Typhoon sub being cut up in Russia......



Good. One less to worry about.
I hope the Nuclear bits and pieces were properly made safe...

John


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## Readie (Nov 21, 2011)

michaelmaltby said:


> ".... Better tires needed to get out of the 'mud'...."
> 
> PLUS .... sometimes co-operation just isn't enough.
> 
> MM



European cooperation is an oxymoron Michael 

I could say more but, in the spirit of this thread I won't

John


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