# Which plane do you think was the best air to air combat and at nose diving



## Xdominick97 (Mar 30, 2012)

I was just wondering what you think please comment and vote


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## Ralf von Schneer (Jul 14, 2012)

Its FW-190 or bf-109,not bf-190.


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## davebender (Jul 14, 2012)

We need instantaneous dive rate data before we can render an intelligent opinion as to which aircraft could make the best use of that aerial maneuver.


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## Procrastintor (Jul 15, 2012)

P-47 is the god of this category, the Spit. isn't bad either, and the Zero, seriously? All it can do is low speed dogfighting.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
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## Oreo (Jul 15, 2012)

I protest the unrelated dual components of the question. And the lack of enough choices. And the inclusion of a fictional aircraft in the choices. But the P-47 is the obvious choice.


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## davebender (Jul 15, 2012)

How do you know? What is the instantaneous dive rate for the P-47C and P-47D?


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## N4521U (Jul 15, 2012)

Well, I think the Corsair should be included.....

If you want proof, just watch an episode of Black Sheep Sqn!!!

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## davebender (Jul 15, 2012)

Entertaining show. I think I've seen all the episodes. However I have my doubts about historical accuracy.


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## nuuumannn (Jul 16, 2012)

> Its FW-190 or bf-109,not bf-190.



Well _aaaactually_ its "Fw 190" and "Bf 109" (no hyphen in case you hadn't spotted). I'd also like to include the Hawker Tempest, Hawker Typhoon, P-51B, Me 262, CAC Boomerang, F4U, Spitfire XIV specifically, Hurricane IIc, P-40, Yak-3, F6F... the inclusion of these (and more...) types would make the poll a whole lot more interesting.


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## Oreo (Jul 17, 2012)

davebender said:


> How do you know? What is the instantaneous dive rate for the P-47C and P-47D?



Because of all the books that say so. The only way anybody like me who "wasn't there" can know anything. I realize the Bf 109 was also known for its diving abilities, but it wasn't quite listed as an option, and the P-47 is reported to be the first aircraft to break the sound barrier in a dive. ("needs citation")


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## N4521U (Jul 17, 2012)

davebender said:


> Entertaining show. I think I've seen all the episodes. However I have my doubts about historical accuracy.



No need to doubt..... there is Nothing accurate about it. Sorry to make light of your post mate. Couldn't resist.


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## davebender (Jul 17, 2012)

Books that make general statements unsupported by historical data or first hand accounts aren't worth the paper they are printed on.


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## nuuumannn (Jul 17, 2012)

> the P-47 is reported to be the first aircraft to break the sound barrier in a dive. ("needs citation")



Sure does, I think it might have been either a Spitfire or a P-38 - When did the P-47 do it?


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## Messy1 (Jul 17, 2012)

IIRC the P-38 was the first plane to encounter compressability in a dive. P-38 should be on your list as well.


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## davebender (Jul 17, 2012)

I doubt that. However I might believe it was the first American fighter aircraft to encounter compressability.


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## Messy1 (Jul 17, 2012)

That may be right Dave. Excuse my error.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 17, 2012)

davebender said:


> I doubt that. However I might believe it was the first American fighter aircraft to encounter compressability.



It was the first aircraft to encounter compressibility and have it widely reported, however given the time and date this happened it could very well the first aircraft to encounter compressibility;

"During a test flight in May 1941, USAAC Major Signa Gilkey managed to stay with a YP-38 in a compressibility lockup, riding it out until he recovered gradually using elevator trim."


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## davebender (Jul 17, 2012)

Me-109F was in service by that date and there were Fw-190 prototypes flying. Both aircraft could probably dive as fast as a YP-38.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 17, 2012)

davebender said:


> Me-109F was in service by that date and there were Fw-190 prototypes flying. Both aircraft could probably dive as fast as a YP-38.


 Perhaps but neither one ever reported the problem, at least that I'm aware of. As far as diving as fast as a YP-38? Debatable.


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## Messy1 (Jul 17, 2012)

Was the Me-109 a strong enough design to be able to dive to near compressability, and not have any damage?


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## drgondog (Jul 17, 2012)

I didn't see a time stamp on the Poll but am reminded that the Spit actually achieved a higher Mach number than all the rest of the operational piston engine a/c during WWII, with the 51D and P-47D neck and neck in .8M range, but close to .85M 'ultimate' with the Spit XX (?) at .91M (??) IIRC.

Pretty sure the 51/47 both outdove the FW 190 and Me 109 (and F4U/F6F) but significant margins.

Neither the YP-38 nor any of the subsequent P-38s should be able to outdive either an FW 190 or Me 109 and certainly not a P-47/P-51. At 20,000 it accelerated quickly into .68-.71M and into almost immediate compressibility with complete loss of elevator capability to pull out until V=<.68M - usually at 5 to 9K.

Having stated this I have no idea regarding pre 1941 terminal dive tests fopr either the 109 or 190 so can't comment plausibly about the comparisons.


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