# 4 bladed 109?



## Trebor (Jan 26, 2009)

this is the wierdest looking BF-109 I've ever seen Tillamook Air Museum 38 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## ccheese (Jan 26, 2009)

I think the four bladed 109's had the Rolls-Royce engine in it.

Charles


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## Colin1 (Jan 26, 2009)

Unless I'm mistaken
that's a Rolls Royce Kestrel-engined HA 1112 M-1-L Buchon

As far as I'm aware, the Germans had two attempts at four-bladed props, both for high-altitude fighters. One was the Blohm und Voss Bv155 (a Bf109 modified and built by BuV) and the Bf109-H1.

At less extreme altitudes, German designers didn't seem to necessarily equate more propeller blades with more power and were happy they could get by with the conventional three-bladed configuration


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## Geedee (Jan 26, 2009)

I reckon its a Buchon and not a 'pukka' 109.

License built by the Sspanish and fitted with the RR Merlin.


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## Colin1 (Jan 26, 2009)

Geedee said:


> License built by the Spanish and fitted with the RR Merlin.


Dude
you could be right - I've got no way of knowing that's a RR Kestrel. Not from that angle, anyway


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## BombTaxi (Jan 26, 2009)

That is almost certainly a Merlin-engined HA-1112M1L Buchon. There was also a K1L version using the Hispano-Suiza 12Z engine. The Buchon often stands in for 109s in film and on TV. There was also a Merlin-engined He111 built in Spain after the war, the CASA 2.111. This has also made film appearances.

And finally, Avia built 109G's more-or-less 'out-of-the-box' as the S-99, and produced an S-199 variant as well, which was used by the Israelis in 1948. These were Jumo 211 powered, I believe 8)

Edit: Colin, the 109 prototype was powered by a RR Kestrel. About half the power of the Merlins in the Buchon/ CASA 2.11, IIRC!


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## Colin1 (Jan 26, 2009)

BombTaxi said:


> That is almost certainly a Merlin-engined HA-1112M1L Buchon. There was also a K1L version using the Hispano-Suiza 12Z engine


I thought various marks of the Buchon were powered by all three, the Kestrel, the Merlin and the HS 12Z; I've just got no idea how to tell while it's still got the lid on.

Mind you, I'm a bit sketchy on Buchons


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## Waynos (Jan 26, 2009)

Bomb Taxi is right, it was only the 109 prototype that had Kestrel power, Buchons using the Merlin or Hispano Suiza.


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## BombTaxi (Jan 26, 2009)

Hmm, a quick scoot around the web suggests that the Kestrel was used in the 109, He112 and Ju87 prototypes, but not in the Buchon. It was a design of 1927 vintage and turned out 745hp - although it topped out at about 1050hp with higher octane fuels later in it's career. 

Just from the age of the design, I find it hard to believe this was in the Buchon, 20 years after the engine was first introduced - the Merlin was in any case much more powerful. The Kestrel was effectively developed into the Vulture, and that was not 'new', or reliable technology by the time the Buchon came along.


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## Captain Dunsel (Jan 26, 2009)

As someone who's watched _The Battle of Britain _many, many times, it certainly looks like it has the Buchon's nose and cylinder bank bulges.

Also, didn't the Merlin and DB601/603/605 turn in different directions? If so, looking at the prop should tell you which way it turns, giving a hint as to the engine's manufacturer.

CD


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## MikeGazdik (Jan 26, 2009)

It is not inverted, so it is certainly a Rolls Royce and not a DB.


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## Heinz (Jan 27, 2009)

That is a Buchon.


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## Graeme (Jan 27, 2009)

BombTaxi said:


> That is almost certainly a Merlin-engined HA-1112M1L Buchon.



G'day BT, Airliners.net certainly agrees with you...

Photos: Hispano HA-1112-M1L Buchon Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net





...but one of the most identifiable features on the HA-1112-MIL are the 20mm wing cannons...





...which are missing from the photo. Simply removed to mimic a more "realistic" Bf-109? (Which Hispano appeared in the 'Battle of Britain' movie?).

Is it possible that Airliners.net is wrong? (wouldn't be the first time). Maybe the machine gun armed HA-1109-MIL?...





Should the exhaust stacks be bigger in the photo to be the HA-1112-MIL?..





Interesting photo. An Hispano re-engined with a Daimler-Benz...

File:Me109 G-6 D-FMBB 1.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## MikeGazdik (Jan 27, 2009)

There are no exhaust stacks on that plane. The exhaust studs are sticking out of the cylinder head. Possible the restoration team is having trouble locating a set of stacks or have to have them made.


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## Airframes (Jan 27, 2009)

You're probably right about the exhaust stacks, Mike; I guess they're waiting for some to be fitted. But yes, it is a 'Buchon', with a Rolls Royce Merlin engine.
The CASA was built as a '109 G from the firewall back, and was delivered to Spain, originally, in 'kit form'. The first few were fitted with Daimler Benz engines, and sunsequently, the CASA works used the Merlin. 
The name 'Buchon' was derived from the appearance of the front lower cowling, being deep and rather bulbous, and 'Buchon' is a type of large breasted Pigeon - hence the 'nickname'.
Buchons have been used in most War movies since about 22 were aquired from the Spanish Air Force,for the making of the movie 'The Battle of Britain', in 1968. These aircraft were modified to resemble '109E's as far as was possible, with 'clipped' wingtips and braced tailplanes. Most '109's' on the airshow circuit have been Buchons, acquired from the film studios, and two appeared in the 1990 movie 'Memphis Bell', and others in a number of TV movies and other programmes since.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 27, 2009)

Trebor said:


> this is the wierdest looking BF-109 I've ever seen Tillamook Air Museum 38 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!



That is not a 109. It is a Buchon. Spanish built Bf 109 and were used post war. They could not get the DB engines, so they put Merlins in them.


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## HellToupee (Jan 28, 2009)

I think the last 109 model the k-14 had a 4 blade prop to.


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## Venganza (Jan 29, 2009)

HellToupee said:


> I think the last 109 model the k-14 had a 4 blade prop to.



Are you sure about that? It seems to me that the Germans just made their 3-bladed props have wider blades as the war went along. Just look at the prop on the Ta-152. They weren't into adding more blades like the Americans and especially the British (5 and even 6-bladers [the counter-props]). 4-bladed props on production aircraft seem to have been rare on German aircraft. I know the BV-138 had a 4-blader on the central engine, and some of the Do-217's had them, but that's all I can remember off the top of my head - no doubt there were other production planes.

Venganza


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## Fokker D21 (Jan 29, 2009)

Strangely enough a 109 looks uglier with a Merlin while a Spitfire with a DB 605 looks better.


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## Fokker D21 (Jan 29, 2009)

The Bf 109 K14 had a 4 blade prop.


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## Fokker D21 (Jan 29, 2009)

There are more strange looking 109's:

With a Pratt Withney Twin-Wasp SC-G (1200 HP):






With a BMW 801:





With a V-tail:


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