# Suplus aircraft dumped down mineshafts?



## no such agency (Feb 5, 2005)

Hi Guys,

I'm just wondering how many people here have heard the urban legends about aircraft and other war materiel dumped or buried at the end of WWII. I've heard some great stories about this old favourite, but I have also seen some evidence which suggests there may be some truth in it.

Cheers,

NSA


----------



## Nonskimmer (Feb 5, 2005)

Many surplus aircraft were dumped in the ocean, following the war.
Supposedly, some were dumped in a few of the large lakes of central and western Canada, though I've yet to come across any evidence to confirm this.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Feb 5, 2005)

Here a picture of surplus P-38's after the war that were dumped


----------



## Medvedya (Feb 5, 2005)

Sad isn't it?


----------



## cheddar cheese (Feb 5, 2005)

Yup, very much so. You'd think it would be more effective and useful to seel them off to the forces of less developed countires.


----------



## Nonskimmer (Feb 5, 2005)

Well, some of them were. Some were also given to the air forces of recovering European countries like Denmark, Belgium, etc. Yet there were so many leftover, and with the downsizing that followed the war and the coming of the jet age, there wasn't much left to do with them.
Still, you'd think more of them would've been properly scrapped instead of simply dumped.


----------



## evangilder (Feb 5, 2005)

Here is another shot of P-38s piled up. These aircraft were BRAND NEW and were awaiting assignment to a Fighter Group.


----------



## plan_D (Feb 6, 2005)

Many M4 Shermans were dumped in the ocean, that's for sure. I hear there were so many they created dams, of sorts in the places they were dumped.


----------



## no such agency (Feb 6, 2005)

I've heard that too. I've got the coordinates of about 5 aircraft dumpsites off the eastern Australian coast - apparently the entile RN carrier complement of aircraft was deep-sixed off Australia as well in 1946. 

I daresay that most people on this board have heard the stories of the aircraft and vehicles dumped down mineshafts or hidden in old bunkers by the yanks in the UK at the end of WWII?


----------



## plan_D (Feb 6, 2005)

I've heard of the British dumping toxic gases which were to be used as a weapon, in the Irish Sea.


----------



## Nonskimmer (Feb 6, 2005)

I've heard of our own government burying toxic gas stockpiles in the northern interior of this country. I don't doubt it, either.


----------



## no such agency (Feb 6, 2005)

Same thing happened here as well. In 1989, mustard gas was uncovered near Maxwellton in Queensland. On a recent trip up north, we came across chem weapons drums which had rusted open, but were not holed then burnt out with incendiaries as per policy. Wouldn't drink water from the creeks up there that's for sure. BTW: how does one go about posting pics on thsi forum. We took photos of the drums...


----------



## Kongo Otto (Feb 6, 2005)

The US and the UK Occupation Forces dumped all German 
Gas Bombs,Arty Shells etc. in the North Sea.
Untill today Danish Fishermen found Gas Grenades and Bombs in their Nets.
This Dumping took Place from 1945 until 1947. There have been about 15000 tons which where dumped in the North Sea,mostly sunk in old Freighters.
Also great amounts of Ammo and Weapons were dumped in Bavarian Lakes by the US-Army after WW2.

Source:Umweltbundesamt,Berlin(Federal Enviroment Agency,Berlin)
Stockholm Peace Research Institute(SIPRI)


Greetings from Germany
Kongo Otto


----------



## DaveB.inVa (Feb 6, 2005)

In the past year or so China found a huge poison gas dump left behind by Japan.

Also on the B-29 Yahoo group theres a retired AF General Earl Johnson. He was stationed on Guam during WWII and stationed there again as a B-52 wing commander in Vietnam. He said they would regularly raid a known WWII bomb dump and load old WWII 500lb bombs on B-52's destined for North Vietnam.

I also know another guy, Bob Mann, from that group whom I have met, he lives a few miles from my college apartment. He was on Guam in the Korean War doing weather recon. They found (and he has pics too) a huge dump of left over R-3350's from WWII. They were packed in crates and still in cosmoline. Since the weather service B-29's were the redheaded stepchild of the Air Force at the time they didnt get all the required materials they needed because almost all of it was sent to Japan or Okinawa for the B-29's there. So he said they would frequently raid the dump and find the parts they needed. He said each time they did so they were sure to remove the ID tag and replace it with the newer tag on their B-29 so everything matched. Popular items were magnetos, fuel injection pumps and just about all engine accessories. 

Bob Mann also has the most comprehensive list of everything B-29 known. I've been to his house and its a complete plethora of B-29 material. He also has a list of each and every B-29 made, their crews, missions, markings, modifications, and their eventual demise. It is truly one of the greatest works I have ever seen!!! He also recently published a book regarding all that stuff... although to a lesser extent than all the actual information he could have put in there. If he put everything he had it would be volumes.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Apr 11, 2005)

According to Martin Cadin (Aviation Author, The Forked Tailed Devil) a number of P-38s (F-38s) were hacked apart and buried in Korea, 1950. The State Department didn't want to antagonize the North Koreans. A few weeks later the North Koreans invaded. I'm sure if this is true, many lives would of been saved if these aircraft were available to the forces attempting to combat the invading North Koreans!


----------



## R Leonard (Apr 11, 2005)

First you'd probably need some current pilots


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Apr 12, 2005)

In reading his book it sounds like they were being flown, thus the pilots being current, although most AF information shows the last of the "F-38s" were retired in 1949?!?


----------



## Wildcat (Apr 13, 2005)

no such agency said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I'm just wondering how many people here have heard the urban legends about aircraft and other war materiel dumped or buried at the end of WWII. I've heard some great stories about this old favourite, but I have also seen some evidence which suggests there may be some truth in it.
> 
> ...




Apparently there is a huge quarry at Archerfield in Queensland that is full of WWII stuff. If found plenty of info at ozatwar.com also has some pics.


----------



## R Leonard (Apr 13, 2005)

> In reading his book it sounds like they were being flown, thus the pilots being current, although most AF information shows the last of the "F-38s" were retired in 1949?!?



Harrummphhhh! Caiden . . . 'nuff said, IMO.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Apr 14, 2005)

YEP - Ole Iron Annie


----------



## HealzDevo (Jun 3, 2005)

There are rumours of sorts that up in the Northern Territory there are large halls in the rock with aircraft, jeeps, tanks and other vehicles that were going to be used by Z Force to defend the Northern Part of Australia if a Japanese Invasion ever came. However, no one really seems to know too much about Z Force them being 'Top Secret' all that. Who is it really going to damage now letting all the information on Z Force out into the open?


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jun 3, 2005)

Governments often have trouble admitting to things even decades after the fact. 
For one reason or another, it may still be classified. Who knows?


----------



## superunknown (Jun 8, 2005)

Ever seen that film footage from Vietnam where they were bulldozing aircraft over the side of a carrier?. Phantoms, Hueys, Cobras, Intruders and even a couple of Skyraiders landing, crew getting out and then pushed over the edge to make way for more!


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jun 8, 2005)

superunknown said:


> Ever seen that film footage from Vietnam where they were bulldozing aircraft over the side of a carrier?. Phantoms, Hueys, Cobras, Intruders and even a couple of Skyraiders landing, crew getting out and then pushed over the edge to make way for more!



Sometimes it easier to do that than to fix em.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 8, 2005)

although abviously it doesn't really happen today......


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jun 8, 2005)

Ya know Lanc, it might. Depending on the conflict and the equipment, maintenance officers may make the call that the equipment is "BER," Beyond Economical Repair and just toss them into a hole or push them off a ship. It sounds sacrilegious, but that's the reality of aircraft maintenance in a combat environment.


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jun 8, 2005)

I've seen video of an F-14 being pushed over the side of a carrier. It was on television, but it may be somewhere online. I'll have a look later, just for interest's sake.


----------



## superunknown (Jun 8, 2005)

FLYBOYJ said:


> superunknown said:
> 
> 
> > Ever seen that film footage from Vietnam where they were bulldozing aircraft over the side of a carrier?. Phantoms, Hueys, Cobras, Intruders and even a couple of Skyraiders landing, crew getting out and then pushed over the edge to make way for more!
> ...



There was nothing wrong with them, they were all in perfectly good condition. It's just that they were pulling out of Vietnam and wanted to get out as quick as possible.
They were not "lame ducks" as they usually at least inspect those first before torching/ditching or bulldozing into ditches. They were literally landing, crew disembarking and then dumped overboard, followed within seconds by another one. Most of the aircraft, still their had payloads as well.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jun 8, 2005)

superunknown said:


> There was nothing wrong with them, they were all in perfectly good condition. It's just that they were pulling out of Vietnam and wanted to get out as quick as possible.



Not really....

When the US military left Viet Nam in 1973 there was a cease fire in place and identified equipment left accordingly. No mass evacuation.....

When Saigon fell in 1975 there was a mass evacuation of the US embassy, the remaining US troops (which I believed number about 1000) US citizens and certain South Vietnamese civilians. Most of the helicopters you see being pushed overboard were not "US Government Assets" including the Air America birds. Most of those helicopters were from the South Vietnamese military and they were dumped to make way for more helicopters and evacuees.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jun 8, 2005)

Found this today as a side note on Viet Nam.....

American allies took casualties as well. South Korea provided the largest outside force and suffered something between 4400 and 5000 killed[3] (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm) full details including WIA and MIA appear difficult to find. Australia lost 501 dead and 3,131 wounded out of the 47,000 troops they had deployed to Vietnam. New Zealand had 38 dead and 187 wounded. Thailand had 351 casualties. It is difficult to locate accurate figures for the losses of the Philippines. Although Canada was not involved in the war, thousands of Canadians joined the American armed forces and served in Vietnam. The American fatal casualties include at least 56 Canadian citizens. It is difficult to estimate the exact number because some Canadians crossed the border to volunteer for service under false pretenses whereas others were permanent residents living in the United States who either volunteered or were drafted.


----------



## plan_D (Jun 8, 2005)

Britain sent SAS out there as 'neutral observers' but I don't think any were lost. Just a side-side note.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jun 8, 2005)

plan_D said:


> Britain sent SAS out there as 'neutral observers' but I don't think any were lost. Just a side-side note.



I never knew that, but I'm not surprised!


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jun 8, 2005)

As another side note, because it wasn't a "Canadian war", the sacrifice of those Canadians who died isn't recognized here. Not surprising really, as Canada had no involvement (that I'm aware of  ) other than being a haven for draft dodgers, but still a bit of a shame IMO.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jun 8, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> As another side note, because it wasn't a "Canadian war", the sacrifice of those Canadians who died isn't recognized here. Not surprising really, as Canada had no involvement (that I'm aware of  ) other than being a haven for draft dodgers, but still a bit of a shame IMO.



I met a few Canadian Viet Nam vets when I lived in Canada. Real shame, got screwed at both sides of the border


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jun 8, 2005)

And the worst part for them is they can't go to Veterans Affairs for help because as I said, it wasn't Canada's war.


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jun 8, 2005)

It seems there's a memorial of some sort called the North Wall in Windsor, Ontario that was erected in 1995, dedicated to Canadian Vietnam vets. I've never heard of it before, but the last time I was in Windsor was in 1990.

This is an interesting link, although the figure of over 30,000 Canadians who served the US at the time is somewhat debatable. The actual number is yet to be confirmed and may never be, but I don't think it was quite that high.

http://dede.essortment.com/canadasvietnam_rgwv.htm


----------



## superunknown (Jun 8, 2005)

Why do I bother?


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jun 8, 2005)

Beats me, but thanks fer comin' out!


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jun 8, 2005)

Thanks for the link NS - I'll send it to my brother.


----------



## superunknown (Jun 8, 2005)

superunknown said:


> Ever seen that film footage from Vietnam where they were bulldozing aircraft over the side of a carrier?. Phantoms, Hueys, Cobras, Intruders and even a couple of Skyraiders landing, crew getting out and then pushed over the edge to make way for more!



I've figured it out! I forgot to mention the fact that these didn't all happen in the same bit of footage, the hueys were from the Saigon evacuation, and the Intruders (could have been something else, I can't remember) were from a carrier that caught fire, so they were dumping 'em over the edge to stop the fire spreading. But I don't know where the Phantoms were filmed, and I have a sneaky suspicion that the Skyraiders were being dumped during Korea, due to the fact that the film was worse quality than the rest of the footage.

Oh, and the RN also had a Carrier out in Vietnam apparantley.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jun 8, 2005)

The fire footage was the USS Forrestal, a carrier sent to Viet Nam at the beginning of the conflict. Right before an airstrike a zuni missle went off and blew up a fully loaded aircraft. After that all hell broke loose. Many men died on the Forrestal because the damage control crew was wiped out and no one else had any real damage control or fire fighting training.


----------



## evangilder (Jun 9, 2005)

I have a cousin that was on the Forrestal when it happened. To this day, he still won't talk about it.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jun 9, 2005)

evangilder said:


> I have a cousin that was on the Forrestal when it happened. To this day, he still won't talk about it.



I can't blame him - before the Forrestal was decommissioned its nickname was the "Forest fire."


----------



## evangilder (Jun 9, 2005)

Yep. Usually when asked about his Navy service he only talks about being on the Ranger.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jun 9, 2005)

Wow- that's interesting!

I read once that people say the Forrestal was cursed because the guy they named it after committed suicide.


----------



## evangilder (Jun 9, 2005)

Who knows. There are some funny superstitions about stuff like that. We had a "cursed" hangar at Lakenheath. Back when they had F-4s there, some crew chief decided to end it all. He pulled the ejection seat handles while inside the hangar (it was a TAB-V hardened aircraft shelter). It splattered him all over the ceiling of the thing. No one wanted to work in that hangar even 10 years later.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jun 9, 2005)

Yep - heard that one,

The prison up in Lancaster (my old home town) used to be an airfield (you may know that). it was known as Polaris Flight Academy, Inc. and Mira Loma Flight Academy and was used for RAF and USAAF flight training, some of the original buildings are still there. There are stories of ghosts, two guys in brown USAAF uniforms, and another guy in a green flight suit walking around in the buildings and on the grounds. The guy in the flight suit is supposed to be a Polish national who was being trained by the RAF. Legend has it we walked into a propeller.


----------



## evangilder (Jun 9, 2005)

Ouch! That'll hurt. I heard stories of the "phantom airman" at Lakenheath as well. I think every airfield has it's legendary phantoms. It's amazing the airfields that have disappeared in Southern California. There was one in Thousand Oaks and one in Newbury Park, years ago. The 101 Freeway at Moorpark drive is right on what used to be the runway for the airport in TO!


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jun 9, 2005)

Yep, I heard that. You also got Simi Valley airport and San Fernando which are now gone. Up in the AV there all over the place, you could see the remants from the air.


----------



## evangilder (Jun 9, 2005)

There is a cool web-page that has all the old fields up there at:

http://www.airfields-freeman.com/CA/Airfields_CA_PalmdaleS.htm

I think the one you mentioned before was War Eagle Field.


----------



## Messy1 (Dec 22, 2011)

We have a John Deere plant here in my hometown of Ankeny, Iowa. During WW2, it was used to make ordnance. Rumor has it there is tons of leftover ordnance buried underground on the property. The factory has been expanded many times since the war, had much of it's land used as a test bed for farming, and recently a lrage junk was sold to a large development company for a new housing project. According to a local paper, when the land was sold to the development company, haz mat teams surveyed the land for months, I would guess to locate any lost stores.


----------

