# He 177 Specifications?



## bryce (Dec 1, 2006)

Hi guys, im wondering if any of you out there know what the accurate specifications for a He 177 would be?

I have been doing some surfing on the net and looking though some books and have found some big discrepancies?

Its max bomb load seems to vary between 1000kg to 6000kg?

While it’s top speed seems to vary from 295mph to 350mph?

If anybody could help me out that would be great!!


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## Gnomey (Dec 1, 2006)

Warbirds Resource Group - LRG Annex - Heinkel He 177 Greif "Griffon"

Typenblatt
Baureihen: A,B,V
z.B.Typ: Verwendungszweck:
He 177 A-3 Bomber
He 177 A-5
He 177 A-7
He 177 B-0 Bomber (4 Motoren)

Werte am Beispiel von:
He 177 A-3
Länge: 22,02 m
Spannweite: 31,44 m
Höhe: 6,70 m
Besatzung: 6
Motor: DB 606
Leistung: 2 x 2700 PS
Vmax: 480 km/h
Reichweite: 3700 km
Gipfelhöhe: 8800 m
Bewaffnung: 1 x MG/FF
2 x MG 131
1 x MG 81
Luftwaffe [LuftArchiv.de - Das Archiv der Deutschen Luftwaffe] 2.WK


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## bryce (Dec 1, 2006)

Ok...so going by this link the He 177 has...

A top speed of 295mph
And a bomb capacity of 1800kg

Does this sound about right?


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## delcyros (Dec 1, 2006)

Payload, speed range do correspond to each other.
You cannot expect a max. payload with max. speed.

The MAX. payload for the He-177A5 is 7200 Kg of bombs inside the bomb chamber.
Usual configuration was somehwat lower:
either
A) 48 X 70 Kg bombs (3360 Kg / 7405 lbs total)
or
B) 10 X 500 kg bombs (5000 Kg / 11020 lbs total)
or
C) 6 X 1000 Kg bombs (6000 Kg / 13224 lbs total)
or
D) 2 X 2500 Kg bombs (5000 Kg / 11020 lbs total)
or
E) 1 X 7200 Kg bomb (?) (some planes only, 15869 lbs total)
or

(Note that A)-D) is also true for the He-177A3)

If the bomb chamber was empty, the He-177A5/U could also carry under the wings:
2 Hs 293 + 1 Hs293 remotely controlled missiles under the fuselage
or
2 Hs 294 + 1 Hs 294 remotely controlled glide bombs under the fuselage
or 
2 PC 1400 + 1 PC 1400 gliding bomb under the fuselage
or
2 torpedoes + 2 torpedoes under the fuselage

As You see, the average payload of the He-177A5 levelled somewhere between 3t. and 6t., depending on mission requirements.

Now to Max. performances, such as service ceiling (WITHOUT PAYLOAD, the -A5 had 7000m service ceiling at max. payload achieved during missions) and max.speed and range(again without payload):
He-177A3 with two DB 606: 9000m----480 Km/h---------3700 Km-------(298 mph for 2300 ml.)
He-177A5 with two DB 610: 8800m----440 Km/h---------3650 Km-------(273 mph for 2267 ml.)
He-177A7 with two DB610A/B: 9400m--540 Km/h--------3700 Km-------(335 mph for 2300 ml.)



The He-177A3 was the first serial variant to be delivered in larger numbers to LuftwaffeBomber Gruppen. The very first 15 planes still had DB 606A/B with 2700 hp, which were very sensitive to cooling issues, later units had 2900 hp powerplants.
The He-177A5 was the major production model with a somewhat underpowered DB 610, which in turn seemed to be less prone to inflame (it still remained an issue).
The He-177A7 had furtherly improved powerplants and a larger wing area, which should help to improve range and speed figures altough only few A7 left assembling halls.

These datas come from original Luftwaffe docs analysed by:
H.J. Nowarra, Dokumente der Deutschen Luftrüstung 1933-1945, Vol. 2, 3rd edition (Koblenz 1993).


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## Denniss (Dec 1, 2006)

Bomb load was at about 7 tons for the A-5. the A-5 was capable of reaching 350 mph and even more if using a shallow dive (as they used to do on bombing missions agains the UK)


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## delcyros (Dec 1, 2006)

Denniss said:


> Bomb load was at about 7 tons for the A-5. the A-5 was capable of reaching 350 mph and even more if using a shallow dive (as they used to do on bombing missions agains the UK)



What are Your sources that the A5 could go 350 mp/h in level flight? I am very sceptical about this, esspeccially in loaden condition. 
They actually used shallow dive on their attacks on London in 1944. From 7000 m altitude with 7 t. payload (2 PC 1000 under the wings + bombbay) they dived a shallow path at constant 650-680 Km/h (403-422 mph) in order to avoid UK nightfighters. In turn the He-177 suffered fewer casualties on this suicide raid than any other Luftwaffe bomber.
I estimate that the rugged airframe, modified to dive ability, made this possible.


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## bryce (Dec 1, 2006)

Thanks for all the info!
That was fantastic!  

I was also very sceptical that a He 177 could go 350 mp/h in level flight, I first saw it here...

Heinkel He 177 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## delcyros (Dec 2, 2006)

If You trace that 350 mp/h figure down it comes from a He-177 Schiffer book. Those Schiffer books have never been reputated for reliability altough in this very topic they were correct. However, there is something different:
The 350 mp/h were flown at "Erhöhte Notleistung"-powersetting (something like WEP + injection. Only suitable for less than a minute in DB 610´s without risking an engine failure or worser: engine fire) in level flight by an He-177AV prototype stripped down from defensive armement and without payload except for minimum fuel load. So this figure isn´t represantative for the He-177 in usual bomber configuartion.
The He-177A5, the mostly used bomber variant had a top speed of 440 Km/h (273 mp/h) sustainable for 30 min.+ at "Steig- und Kampfleistung"-powersetting (100%). Using the "Start- und Notleistungs"- powersetting (WEP or 110%) the He-177A5 could be accelerated to 488 Km/h (303 mp/h) max in level flight. This speed was flown at Rechlin during several testflights with defensive armement but without bombs at 3/4 fuel load (for normal range).

Hope, this helps.


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## Soren (Dec 2, 2006)

A truly great bomber.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 3, 2006)

i don't see how such a failure can be called great, yes the idea was good and a lot of the figures do suggest she could have been great but at a time when the LW needed fighters and with reliability issues like hers i wouldn't call her a great............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 3, 2006)

I have to go with Lanc here Soren. I think the He-177 was a great idea and a good design but here engines were ****. Those coupled engines were a failure and caused most of the problems the He-177 had.


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## Gnomey (Dec 3, 2006)

Yep, the ones with four engines would of worked better but never entered service in any numbers if at all.


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## delcyros (Dec 3, 2006)

Such an opinion shouldn´t be used unreflected.
Most problems referrede by You belong to the He-177A3, which enetered service with DB-609 and DB 606, both engines were prone to engine fire (this problem never was solved but reduced later by a significant degree). The He-177A5 with DB 610 entering service late in 1943 was a greatly improved He-177. A lot of improvements were given to cooling issues for the engines (resulting in a power limitation and a somehow heavier but more reliable engine). Problem was that KG 40 and KG "Hindenburg" received only few A5 because many A3 were still servicable. During the catastrophic raid against London (operation Steinbock or Baby Blitz)with an average loss rate of 60% for each type used (Ju-88, Ju-188, He-111, Do-217), the He-177A5 which participated got a loss rate well below 10%, making them the best bomber used in this catastrophic raid (indeed this sortie was it´s last success in the west). The end for the He-177 came in the 3rd quarter of 44, when high grade fuel wasn´t avaiable in the numbers needed to operate a whole Geschwader. 
I would rather conclude that by early 44, the He-177 was the technical most powerful bomber of the Luftwaffe. This seems to be confirmed by post war tests on He-177A5 and one He-177A7, which turned out to be impressive for the RAF.
In any event, it wasn´t the weapon needed most by the Luftwaffe in this timeframe with hindsight 20/20. So ok- but it was no failure technically (at least in the developed A5 submodel, the A3 was crap,hands down)


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## Soren (Dec 3, 2006)

I agree completely Delcyros. 

Lanc, Adler and Gnomey, I partially agree with you as-well as the early He-177 did suffer this problem to quite a severe degree, however it was lessened later on. 

The reason I call it great, although its service at the time wasn't needed, is because of its huge bomb-load capability, speed, dive-bombing capability, range and the ability to launch the Fritz X with great accuracy. The engine fires of the early versions is I admit a big "NO NO" though.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 3, 2006)

Like I said the design had great potential but overall it was a failure due to the engine problems of the earlier aircraft it never got to prove itself. I know the later varients were getting better, but it was too late.


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## dazzagreenwood (Dec 11, 2006)

Hi guys i'm researching the Eastern Front for a modelling theme, and i was wondering if He-177's were ever deployed there? I know He-111's and Fw-200's were, but I can't find any information on He-177's.


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## Wurger (Dec 11, 2006)

According to Kev Darling's book "Heinkel He-177" Warpaint series no.33, the first operational unit to deploy He177 was 1./FKG 50. formed during the summer of 1942 with the first a/c arriving in June.Actual combat operetions began for the unit in January 1943 when transferred to Zaporozhye as a part of Luftflotte 4.This was the era of the defence of Stalingrad and massive amounts of air support of all kinds were needed to supply and defend the troops on the ground.That's all I 've found.I hope it is helpful.
There a pic from the mentioned above book :


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## Kurfürst (Dec 11, 2006)

delcyros said:


> If You trace that 350 mp/h figure down it comes from a He-177 Schiffer book. Those Schiffer books have never been reputated for reliability altough in this very topic they were correct. However, there is something different:
> The 350 mp/h were flown at "Erhöhte Notleistung"-powersetting (something like WEP + injection. Only suitable for less than a minute in DB 610´s without risking an engine failure or worser: engine fire) in level flight by an He-177AV prototype stripped down from defensive armement and without payload except for minimum fuel load. So this figure isn´t represantative for the He-177 in usual bomber configuartion.
> The He-177A5, the mostly used bomber variant had a top speed of 440 Km/h (273 mp/h) sustainable for 30 min.+ at "Steig- und Kampfleistung"-powersetting (100%). Using the "Start- und Notleistungs"- powersetting (WEP or 110%) the He-177A5 could be accelerated to 488 Km/h (303 mp/h) max in level flight. This speed was flown at Rechlin during several testflights with defensive armement but without bombs at 3/4 fuel load (for normal range).
> 
> Hope, this helps.



Interesting and good info, which Schiffer book is that exactly ?

A sidenote on power settings, of course the max speeds are understood for Start u. Notleistung, or as it was earlier called on the DB 601/606 engines, erhöhte Notleistung. These power settings were of course, only allowed for a couple of minutes, by Allied terminology this is WEP power setting.

However it should not be forgotten that every other bombers listed top speed, say a B-17s, is _also_ given with using the WEP limited to a few minutes. So it's comparable, even though it's not a very useful speed for a bomber, considering especially formation flying and fuel economy issues (range!) that meant that bombers usually cruised at far less then their top 
speeds.

Continous maximum and economic cruise speeds are far more interesting IMHO.


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## Nicodemus (Dec 11, 2006)

Recently I saw a profile of an He 177 unit on the eastern front which had their aircraft equipped with heavy calibre 50 mm cannons to combat Soviet flak positions. What was the idea behind this? Doe sanybody have more info?


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## Nicodemus (Dec 11, 2006)

I found it on my computer. Check out the top aircraft with the weird 'chin cannon'


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## dazzagreenwood (Dec 11, 2006)

Hey thanx Wurger. Muchly appreciated!


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## delcyros (Dec 11, 2006)

Use of He-177 on th eastern front 1944:
KG1 (new) was formed in early june 1944 at Königsberg/eastern prussia and subsequently commssioned with 3 Gruppen (estimate strength: 100 He-177A5).
Despite several strategical targets were in range, they barely were active due to severe fuel shortage. Training flights were mostly disbanded. Usually fuel was delivered the day before a major attack was planned.
From eastern Prussia they flew several attacks against soviet supply depots and transport centres in late summer 1944. Usual attack altitude was 6000m (~20.000ft) and formation was close in order to get most of the defensive potential. Few attampts to intercept were made and those cases usually ended with fighter beeing frustrated by He-177 formation defense (they copied the US combat box). Losses are credited to AAA more than fighter causes and remained on a very low level (below 5%).
One of the major attacks was flown under supervision of Kommodore Horst v. Riesen and targeted the railway centre Velikiye Luki (approx. 300 Km west of Moscow) with 87 He-177.
At june, 23th, a soviet major assault targeted for Army group centre and eventually destroyed the bulk of the german forces. The success of soviet tanks forced all german planes to be involved in anti tank purposes. V. Riesen was ordered to attack soviet tanks along the frontline (personal order from Göring) in low level flying. As You may know, sending such a huge airplane, as the He-177 was, in low level anti tank duties isn´t a wise idea and thus those sorties ended with a loss ratio of nearly 25%, mostly by fighters, which found the low and slow He-177 an easy target, altough they prooved to receive a huge amount of battledamage (some planes are reported to return to bases with several 3.7cm hits in the fuselage and wings). It is not known if any soviet tank was destroyed.
At jule, 20th, KG 1 again flew succesful high level attacks on various targets.
This also was the last major operational sortie of KG 1 as fuel shortage did not allowed to keep KG 1 operational. KG 1 was ordered to move to central Germany and the unit was disbanded shortly afterwards. This directly may be credited to the high grade fuel shortage.


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## delcyros (Dec 11, 2006)

Kurfürst said:


> Interesting and good info, which Schiffer book is that exactly ?
> 
> A sidenote on power settings, of course the max speeds are understood for Start u. Notleistung, or as it was earlier called on the DB 601/606 engines, erhöhte Notleistung. These power settings were of course, only allowed for a couple of minutes, by Allied terminology this is WEP power setting.
> 
> ...



Compare:
J. Dressel/M. Griehl, Heinkel He 177 - 277 - 274. Eine luftfahrtgeschichtliche Dokumentation, 2. Aufl. (1989). Griehl earlier published the performance datas in his article "Gesch. der dt. Bomberflotte".

I agree that economic cruise speed is the more relevant figure for bombers. So far, I have no such datas at hand.


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## Propellorhead (Jul 20, 2016)

bryce said:


> ...I have been doing some surfing on the net and looking though some books and have found some big discrepancies?
> 
> Its max bomb load seems to vary between 1000kg to 6000kg?
> 
> ...



Maybe this can help?

Chief of General Staff General Walther Wever declared a strategic vision in 1934 & wanted an aircraft capable of reaching the Urals, with 1,000kg (2,204 lb) of bombs to fly 5,000km (3,107 mi) at a speed not less than 500 km/h (311 mph) at altitude. This was the Ural bomber specification and the He-177 was developed to meet that requirement. 

In fact over shorter distances it could carry greater bomb loads.


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## Propellorhead (Jul 20, 2016)

Please can anyone advise me the fuel capacity of the He-177 A-5 please, either in Litres/US Gals or in weight?


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## Propellorhead (Jul 20, 2016)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Like I said the design had great potential but overall it was a failure due to the engine problems of the earlier aircraft it never got to prove itself. I know the later variants were getting better, but it was too late.



The real problem was oil pumps causing oil foaming in the DB606 engines. This engine issue was eventually solved and then with the A-3 version in November 1942 the fuselage was lengthened 1.6m solving aerodynamic issues. A-O & A-1 airframes became surplus in 1943 and from late 1943 were used for rebuild conversion at Vienna Schwechat to the He277.

From December 1943 the A-5 used the same lengthened fuselage of the A-3 with a new DB610 engine. By 1944 with Steinbock raids over England the He-177 had the lowest casualty rate of all Luftwaffe bombers. By 1944 however the He-177 lacked the combination of speed & altitude performance required for true strategic bombing.

The He277 was intended to regain the initiative with the capability of bombing from 49,210ft altitudes, but in April 1944 all production was halted.


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