# Tiger Attack!



## plan_D (Oct 6, 2005)

Here's some information about s.Pz-Abt 502, 501 and 504 during their initial deployments. Equipped solely with Pz.Kpfw VI Tiger tanks and Pz.Kpfw III (for support and flank protection). 

From 12th January - 31st March 1943, 1st Company (theoretically seven Tigers and eight Pz.Kpfw III) s.Pz-Abt 502 operating near Leningrad with Army Group North destroyed one-hundred and sixty enemy tanks with a loss of six Tiger tanks. A kill:loss of 26.7:1. Only three of those lost were to enemy action. Two became stuck and were destroyed by their crew. One fell to mechanical failure and was unrecoverable. 

As we all know the Tiger was a monster for fuel consumption and was a mechanical nightmare. On average it only could achieve a forty mile combat movement. A huge problem for the Tiger was a lack of recovery vehicles. The Tiger was thrown into combat quickly without any armoured recovery vehicles. They only had eighteen-ton vehicles but it took two to pull a Tiger. Unofficially Tigers were used to pull disabled Tigers but this was against the rules. 

s.Pz-Abt 501 operated in Tunisia. While there it achieved sixty-two percent operational rate of it's Tigers. It arrived before it's support platoons and had to go into combat without any maintenance teams. Yet s.Pz-Abt.501 managed to destroy a number exceeding one-hundred and fifty enemy tanks, of which all were destroyed by the Tigers of the battalion. They lost eleven while in Tunisia which was a kill:loss of 13.6:1. Of those eleven lost, three were to direct enemy action. The rest either broke down or were immobilised in a minefield and could not be recovered. 

s.Pz-Abt 504 also operated in Tunisia. While there it achieved a fifty percent operational rate of it's Tigers. From 12 March - 12 May 1943 the battalion destroyed over one-hundred and fifty enemy tanks for a loss of eight Tigers. That's a kill:loss of 18.8. Of all those lost only two were lost to enemy action. That means that the kill:loss due to direct enemy action was an astounding 75:1! The battalion destroyed its remaining Tigers before the Afrika Korps capitulated meaning that a total kill:loss for the Wehrmacht was actually 6.8:1. 

These early actions proved that the Tiger needed a recovery vehicle capable of taking it from the battlefield to the rear areas for repair. The loss rate would have been much less had this kind of vehicle been present as most were stuck or immobilised but had to be destroyed due to lack of a recovery vehicle. s.Pz-Abt 504 actually records a Tiger being towed by a single Pz.Kpfw III out of desperation!

The _schwere Panzer Abteilungs_ were created to concentrate the deadly Tiger tank. They were envisaged crushing the enemy lines and destroying their artillery, providing a breakthrough and free roam for the lighter panzers. The employment also included the complete destruction of the enemy tank forces, without destroying the enemy armour a breakthrough will never be achieved. The Western Allies and Red Army were well known not to face the Tiger head-on if at all during these early years of it's introduction. In the Western Desert the Allied armour would simply move away from the Tigers and lay minefields infront of the retreat to trap and immobilise the Tigers.


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## Gnomey (Oct 6, 2005)

Interesting stuff pD.


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## schwarzpanzer (Oct 6, 2005)

You got this from Parmigiano's post, didn't you?  



> Unofficially Tigers were used to pull disabled Tigers but this was against the rules.



Too right too! - usually the towing Tiger broke down, so you then had 2 broken down Tigers!  



> Of all those lost only two were lost to enemy action.



I doubt it, 2 were destroyed by 6pdrs in its North African debut and 1 was later captured (the one in Bovington).

So, that's 3 for a start, after only 2 battles...



> The battalion destroyed its remaining Tigers before the Afrika Korps capitulated meaning that a total kill:loss for the Wehrmacht was actually 6.8:1.



Assuming that figures correct, how many allied tanks do you reckon could be produced for one Tiger?


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## plan_D (Oct 6, 2005)

And where's your source and evidence to state that two Tigers were lost to OQF 6pdr cannons in their African debut? Since all Tiger losses are listed by cause then you cannot dispute the fact. Only two Tigers in s.Pz-Abt. 504 lost to direct enemy action. 

Even so, altogether in Africa five Tigers were lost to direct enemy action. Three from s.Pz-Abt. 501 and two from s.Pz-Abt. 504. The 6.8:1 figure is only after the Afrika Korps had destroyed the remaining fourteen Tigers because they were going to capitulate. Those Tigers weren't lost on the field and they wouldn't have been lost if Germany had anyway of evacuating them. The real kill:loss is 18.8 for the Tiger in combat in Africa. 

Before you start spouting anything produce evidence. And I would advise reading the piece that Parm kindly provided.


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## plan_D (Oct 6, 2005)

s.Pz-Abt.503 arrived at the front on 27th December 1942. The battalion only managed a thirty-five percent operational rate. However, they destroyed seventy-one enemy tanks and fifty-five anti-tank guns for a loss of three Tigers and thirteen Pz.Kpfw III. All three Tigers were lost due to enemy action. s.Pz-Abt.503 took more care in recovering their Tigers, one such incident involved six eighteen-ton recovery vehicles and two Tigers taking hours to recover one that had broken the ice on a stream. 

Many Tigers were in need of repair due to the punishment they received at the hands of the enemy anti-tank defences. One Tiger over a six hour period received two-hundred and twenty-seven hits from anti-tank rifles, fourteen times by 52mm rounds and eleven times by 76.2mm rounds. The tank in question still ran under it's own power for sixty kilometers back to it's own lines.


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## schwarzpanzer (Oct 6, 2005)

> And where's your source and evidence to state that two Tigers were lost to OQF 6pdr cannons in their African debut?



"The British first encountered the Tiger in Feburary 1943 near Pont du Fahs in Tunisia, when 6-pounders engaged two Tigers and nine PzKpfwIIIs and IVs. Both Tigers were knocked out @ 500 yards."

- Christopher F. Foss

Does that satisfy your immense appetite for pedantry?

Also the Bovington Tiger was nicked in Tunisia, that makes 3 gone.



> And I would advise reading the piece that Parm kindly provided.



I have and evidently, so have you.



> One Tiger over a six hour period received two-hundred and twenty-seven hits from anti-tank rifles, fourteen times by 52mm rounds and eleven times by 76.2mm rounds.



I have info on MatildaII's doing the same after (IIRC) 28 37/50mm 3 88mm hits!


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## plan_D (Oct 6, 2005)

No that's not enough because if you had read that piece and other's you would know that what the Allies reported as destroyed was often recovered and repaired by the Germans. Unless those two Tigers were truly out of action and were never recovered then they're not a loss. 

Tiger 131 was "captured" after the Germans thought they'd destroyed it. That means it was written off the German after action report as destroyed and included in the overall loss tally of Tigers. Which due to the capitulation was every Tiger sent to North Africa. 

And that quote from where? It's no good telling us Foss said so without stating where he said so. Provide the full story for the Matilda II incident, I hardly doubt they were direct hits from the 88mm.


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## mosquitoman (Oct 17, 2005)

From what I can remember when I went to Bovingdon, that particular Tiget was hit in the gap joining the turret and hull- welding the 2 together which led to the Tiger's crew thinking that it was disabled and ran away


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## plan_D (Oct 17, 2005)

If that's the case, Tiger #131 may just be recorded as one of those lost to enemy action. I don't actually know. No matter, it's still recorded in German statistics as an overall loss in the African campaign and doesn't change one single thing.


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## Erich (Oct 18, 2005)

Plan hoping you don't mind a Konigstiger image here, but maybe I should start a new thread as you were just talking of Tiger 1's correct ?


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## evangilder (Oct 18, 2005)

Nice shot!


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## Gnomey (Oct 18, 2005)

It is. What unit is that Erich?


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## Erich (Oct 18, 2005)

One of the heaviest committed units on the Ost front and wiped out to a tank, not many survived Berlin, but the kills this Abteilung made are incredible, over 400 Soviet panzers.

SS Schwere Panzerabteilung 503 after they had unloaded their Tiger I's and gathered the heavier panzer King. the area may have been Pommern but.......... the chap on the far right with the Lederjacke is Karl Brommann which had already scored over 66 Soviet tanks himself at this moment in time. Abteilung Kommandeur Herzig as Sturmbannführer- equivalent of major of sorts to Bromanns left. SS Panzer ~ Kommandeurs receiving awards for their destruction of Soviet armor


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## Erich (Oct 18, 2005)

my last comment I believe is incorrect. The Leutnant on the far left and his crew receiving awards, most likely EK I's with paper work


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## lesofprimus (Oct 18, 2005)

I think uve posted that pic before... Its a great pic....


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## Nonskimmer (Oct 18, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> I think uve posted that pic before... Its a great pic....


Sure is. 
It's good to have the history behind it too.


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## plan_D (Oct 18, 2005)

No, Erich, feel free to involve the King Tiger. After all this thread was actually about the schwere Panzer Abteilungs rather than just the Tiger I itself.


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## Erich (Oct 18, 2005)

ok you asked for it.... a small pic of Karl B. on the barrel of his "heavy"

Les yes I think I have posted a few pics but hey I've got some-timers....


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## Erich (Oct 18, 2005)

ok another pic of the Deutsche Panzer ace


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## Gnomey (Oct 18, 2005)

Nice pics Erich.


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## plan_D (Oct 18, 2005)

I think it's safe to say you're much more up to date on the s.Pz-Abt and SS s.Pz-Abt, Erich. I was wondering have you ever heard of the problems that experienced crews had during the latter half of 1944 and 1945 when the Soviets and Allies introduced more up to date tanks that let the Tiger's practical invulnerability slip. I have read that the crews through 1942-43 threw away the usual tactical armour practices because the enemy could not destroy their Tiger like they could the enemy. And with the introduction of heavier tanks capable of destroying the Tiger it proved quite a big problem. Which I believe even attracted attention from Herr Guderian himself ...who was quite dismayed. Ever read that yourself?


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## Erich (Oct 18, 2005)

similiar events plan. my base is 44-45 and not earlier, and this from way back in the 60's as a kid, interested in W-SS armor ops and then almost dropped due to strong infuence of Luftwaffe ~ familie and friends

not too much from me on the Heer Abteilungs but do have some on the W-SS Abt.'s. Actually this particular SS-503 unit knew quite well the defensive capabilities the Konig had and although they were asked on a continual basis to free surrounded forces and break open the cauldrons the unit was also ordered on many ops to go back and retreive lost ground. I cannot think of a time when this unit, small in comparison to the T-34 and JS 1 and 2 units they fought against felt inferior in any way. Knowing full well the 122mm had a leathal punch I think the W-SS heavy crews felt confident in their long rod 8.8cm and the exceptional optics that went with it. Again having to adjust and turn the turrets by hand the superior ammo and the long range could defeat anything they came up against. the problem was too few a number and as it has been said a slow beast it was with tiring engines which the crew were always working on or sent back to the werktkompanies; also the retrieval of sacked Konigs on the field. Something slips or a track gets blown off by a mine and the crews went after the machine at night to secure it and get it running again so needed they were in the last days of battle in the Ost.

what really pulls my chain was the insane order for spring awakening and the last battles in Hungary/Austria thinking the Konig almost by it's little lonesome could be used in the advacne and break Soviet defences............idiotic, but we have to see who was in charge, der Führer loser


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## plan_D (Oct 18, 2005)

Ah, yes, the recovery of the Tiger and King Tiger were always a problem. As with those numbers provided on the page before most losses were to those that should have been recoverable. They really needed the likes of the BergeTiger long before it's actual introduction. 

Despite all this wastage and misuse it must be remembered that the sole purpose of the s.Pz-Abt were to destroy enemy tanks ...and they did that with obvious precision and brutality. I think the Allied tactic of retreating from the Tiger's to lead them on to minefields was pretty impressive ...and a good way to defeat them. Too often s.Pz-Abt had to go in without engineer support. 

I cannot remember which unit it was but on an advance through Italy they kept an almost full compliment of Tiger's operational ...every 20 minutes they stopped for maintenance! I believe it was one hour movement equalled ten hour maintenance.


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## Erich (Oct 18, 2005)

that maintenacne problem plan could also be for just 1-3 tigers and the whole Kompanie and sometimes Abteilung would have to stop recover the Panzers set up camo shelters and work all night to get them rolling again.

Example is the SS-101 going to the Normandie front as well as the SS-102/502 which lost all it's armor in Normandie but the result was 250 odd British kills. both units refittd and sent to Ardenne and the Ost front respectively.

you will also find with Tiger 1 and 2 on the Ost front in the last months of the war that many were just abandoned due to lack of fuel or a single Tiger 2 defending it's small area of turf, Soviet tanks knocked out at the longest possible range the German crew runs out of ammo and escapes at night setting off the explosives within the turret. Later the Soviets would do the typical propaganda shot of the Tiger remains stating it was blown apart by a JS 2


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## plan_D (Oct 18, 2005)

As you see from those numbers a lot of Tiger's were just abandoned. It was quite stupid (surprising, uh?) of Hitler to send in these high maintenance machines in to combat so early without actually providing adequete maintence and recovery vehicles. 

I know the Tiger's often acted either in pairs or in singles when in Italy because the terrain disallowed grouping of such a large number of Tigers. A group of 40 odd Tiger's would have provided tasty target practice for the Allied air force too ...so not advisable. 

As with the W-SS itself though the s.Pz-Abt and their SS counter-parts were really driven into the ground. Moved around too much ...German high command loved these things so they expected them to be everywhere all the time ...wore them down ... a lot! Same with the W-SS though ...mobile fire brigades or flank protection ...these s.Pz-Abt were probably the most powerful formations in World War II ...but misused in too many circumstances ...imagine a full strength s.Pz-Abt at Zeelow ...Soviets wouldn't have been laughing then. As it happens it was remnants of those that had been wasted on fruitless assaults on other fronts ...the most useless being Spring Awakening ..as you mentioned.


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## Erich (Oct 18, 2005)

Plan what is not really mentioned in war books is that W-SS Schwere Panzerabteilung 502 was at Seelowe heights and really pout it too the Soviets in a terrible way along with many dug-in 88's. The 561 SS Abt equipped with the Hetzer and as they were quite low down in profile and very mobil also put it to the Soviets with one encounter knocking out 40 T-34's.

One of the interesting tidbits is that SS-502 and SS-503 did not have any W-SS ground support but were as you put it a fire brigade of 3-4 Tigers and defended by Heer and Luftwaffe ground troops/Fallschirms for cover.
Again spread so thin over huge amounts of land the Tiger units were surrounded on a constant basis, shifting to the front or a firing retreat to take up other ground and then ordered stupidly to advance and retake ground lost.

SS-502 was ble to escape the halbe pocket which was anothe blood letter for the Germans but also the Soviets and they skirted around Berlin to surrender to the US forces to the west in the nick of time.

SS-503 what was left of it some 10 or so Konigs defeneded Berlin with Nordlands make up of several panthers and it's stug III compositions plus the hordes of German troops/civilians and kids armed with Panzerfausts


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## plan_D (Oct 18, 2005)

Yeah ...too bad for the Germans the s.Pz-Abt weren't full strength. That number of Soviet destroyed would have been much-much higher. Do you know the Pz-Abts that were stationed at Koenigsberg during the Soviet siege 'cos I read this interesting story of one Panther G destroying three IS-2s in a matter of minutes and completely halting the Soviet attack in that area. Apparently it kept coming out from behind a building, blasting one then retreating to reload before coming out again and blasting another. Soviet supporting infantry panicked at the sight of their beloved IS-2s being picked off like flies.


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## lesofprimus (Oct 18, 2005)

> Soviet supporting infantry panicked at the sight of their beloved IS-2s being picked off like flies.


Wouldnt u panic too????


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## plan_D (Oct 18, 2005)

...I'd have been panicking the whole time!! Can you imagine being thrown into an open field with a PPSh-41 ...being kicked up the arse and told to march next to these lumbering tin cans towards an enemy that's just plain better than you and in the nice cover of a big city ...well ...you've obviously come closer to that experience than me ...but y'know ...reading incidents like that really dispell the whole "German troops were poor fighters by the end of the war...and Soviets were good ..." crap. Oh yeah, IS-2 crews in that engagement were dump. Why not blow the freakin' building to bits? That's what the D-25T was designed to do!


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## Erich (Oct 18, 2005)

sheer stupidity and forcing by numbers was the Soviet land game.

Konigsberg, yes ! you are in luck. let me do some data searching here Plan. My good freind Helmuth Reichert in the 1st Infantrie Divison fought here before the retreat towards Hela bay and Danzig after the Preussian capitals fall. Can tell you it was like tons of bricks thrown at the Soviet panzers during the engagement; every soldier that Helmuth could remember had a Panzerfaust at his side. Sad to say I did not interview him more about this battle as he died several years ago on a cold November day. I have a priority emplacement map of the defences of the city soemwhere so it should indicate the major heavies placed. also at least 2-3 Stug III Abt.'s were to be used in the defending countryside. the Ost Preussian marshes were to consume many soviets including their armor. almost as if natural traps had been provided commented my long time friend............let me check this further


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## plan_D (Oct 18, 2005)

Excellent, thank you. I will try to find where the story is from and see if I more indepth information on the incident. If my memory serves me correctly the Soviets attacked again in the same area some time later and the Panther wasn't there anymore - ran out of ammo? I think it's likely.


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## Erich (Oct 19, 2005)

Plan :

not exactly what you want but.....

69th inf.
Polizei Kampfgruppe
61st Inf.
367th Inf.
548th V.G.
561st V.G.

this all for April of 1945.

5th Panzer was just on the western outskirts as well as the 1st Infantrie Div. which did go into Konigsberg and then back out.

I do not see a Heavy panzer Battalion but I do know as mentioned earlier 2 Stug III Brigaden did take part outside of the city in the forests as well as Groß-Deutschland div.

Das Ende in Ostpreußen


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## plan_D (Oct 19, 2005)

It wasn't a heavy battalion, Erich, because it was a Panther G. It must have been with 5th Panzer. I'm still struggling to find the story but when I do I'll tell you what I have on it.


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## Erich (Oct 19, 2005)

that would make sense Plan. it still amazes me from what divisions which were pretty shaken by 45, could defend the capital of East Prussia as well as they did. German fortitude it would appear


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## plan_D (Oct 19, 2005)

You must remember they had support from the Kriegsmarine who had a few warships in the area. I think _Lutzow_ was one of them. Maybe even _Prinz Eugen_ as well. I'll have to find the real ones that were there ...but 200-300mm shells don't bode well with enemy armour.


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## Udet (Oct 19, 2005)

"Later the Soviets would do the typical propaganda shot of the Tiger remains stating it was blown apart by a JS 2 "

The pathology of soviet propaganda.

Has any of you read George Nipe´s "Decision in the Ukraine"?
Nipe debunked one more of the countless myths produced by the bolshevik propaganda:

the "hundreds of Tigers of the II SS Panzer Korps after the battke of Prokhorova" in the Kursk salient, during the cauldron of 1943.

What a surprise for them bolsheviks to know there were only some 3 dozens of Tigers in the whole Kursk salient deployed, and in fact, most of them went through the battle chewing T-34 ass.


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## plan_D (Oct 19, 2005)

Tiger's operational rate suffered quite heavily at Kursk due to misuse on the Germans part. Most of the time the Soviets claimed more Tiger's destroyed than were actually present on the battlefield. However, at Kursk the Tigers were misused. 

Guderian before had strictly told the generals to not use the s.Pz-Abt too much in the first wave. The s.Pz-Abt needed to be ready for the Soviet armoured counter-attack - after all the sole purpose of the s.Pz-Abt was to destroy the enemy armour, and nothing else. 

The s.Pz-Abt were sent in penny packets - and I belive even one was split up among divisions. A sin in Guderian's eyes!

And three dozen? I don't know the full operation rate of the s.Pz-Abt but in theory from the E deployment there should have been 43 per Abteilung ...and there were two in the Kursk salient. Of course, not all were operational ...I'll have to find the operational rate.


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## Erich (Oct 19, 2005)

here is an example at Kursk. The 13th SS Schwere Kompanie of the 1st SS Pz.

notice roughly 15 Tiger 1's in the 1st SS at their disposal


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## Erich (Oct 20, 2005)

if I may add to the 13th SS Pz regiment 1, the Panzerregiment during Kursk lost a total of 2 Tigers. One of these was wrecked on the field and cannibalized.

for 8./SS-Pz regiment 2 Das Reich they lost a total of 1 Tiger due to enemy combat.

for 9./SS- Pz regiment 3 Totenkopf they lost a total of 3 Tigers due to enemy action, with one of them looted, the other Ko'd by a panzerfaust.

one of the finest works which was incorported into Nipes work, and yes I own a copy; By Sylvester Stadler RK winner: Die Offensive gegen Kursk 1943. Some great maps, 19 to be precise and 78 pics. Sadly I do not own a copy of this large book


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## plan_D (Oct 20, 2005)

Those losses were at the expense of the Red Army - I think it was a remarkable kill:ratio on the south side of the bulge where the SS s.Pz-Abt attack I believe ...I can't quite remember at this exact moment. 

And it was _Lutzow_ and _Admiral Scheer_ that were protecting Konigsberg.


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## CharlesBronson (Nov 7, 2005)

Checking the book "Tiger 1 heavy tank 1942-1945" of Jentz-Doyle I found interesting data about the battle of KursK.

There was 148 Tigers I available on that time in the Eastern Front, 85 % ready to combat. 

Facing it there was about 3400 russian tank ( including 270 Kv-1 and 35 Churchill Mk-III)

The sPz.Abt 503 had an excelent performance in the attack to the russian bulge. Betwenn 1 of July 1943 and 2 September 1943 the Heavy Tank Batallion claimed as destroyed 501 enemy tanks (mostly T-34 but also small cuantities of Valentine, Churchill, and KV-1s) 388 pak and Flak guns, 79 artillery pieces and 7 aircraft...  

In turn this group suffer 18 Tiger knocked out wich only 7 became total losses.


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## schwarzpanzer (Nov 7, 2005)

You can see why the later T34's were called 'Mickey Maus' can't you?  (above picture - turret hatches)


*PlanD:*

Those photos you use are Nazi propaganda pics, as bad as the Soviets?

The IS2 is not to be belittled. The IS2's mentioned here are the earlier versions and the retro-fitted IS1's which had crap armour quality/design, crews and guns compared to the mainstream IS2(M).

Also a T34 destroyed 3 KT's in 3 minutes!! 8) 

The Panther was excellent though, especially the AusF and Late G's.

The early D's were crappily designed/built though, as were a lot of KingTigers.



> If my memory serves me correctly the Soviets attacked again in the same area some time later and the Panther wasn't there anymore - ran out of ammo? I think it's likely.



If I was the Panther commander I'd scarper too, as the Soviets were prone to sending in the SU-100's or similar, or maybe even IL-2's or Katyushka's against such 'nuisances'.  

I doubt the ammo ran out - the Panther had a huge ammo load, a huge advantage over the IS2. 8) 




Udet said:


> What a surprise for them bolsheviks to know there were only some 3 dozens of Tigers in the whole Kursk salient deployed, and in fact, most of them went through the battle chewing T-34 ass.



'Them bolsheviks' called all Panzers Tigers! Certainly the Panther was usually called the Tiger, this was a case of mistaken identity.

I reckon the Ferds would also have been confused for Tigers. Of cause later all StuG's were called Ferdinands by the Soviets:



> Soviet soldiers painted the name TIGER on the front armor plate and first three letters TIG (in Russian) are visible. In 1943/44, to the ordinary Soviet troops all German Panzers were known as "Tigers" and all assault guns as "Ferdinands", while all German soldiers as "Fritz" or "Gans".
> Photo and information provided by Dmitry Pyatakhin.



Taken from:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz4.htm#panther

The T34, SU122, SU85 and SU152 were all capable of beating a Tiger and proved this at Kursk.

Later, the Soviets found their 76mm could only penetrate the Tigers flanks at < 200m!!


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## plan_D (Nov 9, 2005)

Nazi propaganda? They don't have to lie about a Tiger knocking out T-34s and BT-7Ms, schwarz. No they're not. And the Tiger is not to be belittled, only an idiot would try and do so ...but you try pretty hard.


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## schwarzpanzer (Nov 9, 2005)

Oh yes it was formidable, but Tiger Phobia among the Allies along with German pride makes it seem better than it was with Westerners.

Still a great tank and yes, very capable of taking out T34's and BTM's. 8) 

Still, it had quite a few weaknesses, but I disagree with some (Western) experts that say the PzIV was better. I remember you actually helped me on that PD, cheers.


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## CharlesBronson (Nov 19, 2005)

No comments.


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## schwarzpanzer (Nov 21, 2005)

I'd have the one on the right.  

The Sherman/76 wasn't actually bad though, at least it was dependable and numerous.


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## mosquitoman (Nov 21, 2005)

I'd take the Firefly over the Sherman/76


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## m kenny (Oct 17, 2006)

plan_D said:


> From 12th January - 31st March 1943, 1st Company (theoretically seven Tigers and eight Pz.Kpfw III) s.Pz-Abt 502 operating near Leningrad with Army Group North destroyed one-hundred and sixty enemy tanks with a loss of six Tiger tanks. A kill:loss of 26.7:1. Only three of those lost were to enemy action. Two became stuck and were destroyed by their crew. One fell to mechanical failure and was unrecoverable.



Not so widely known is that kill claims by German Units in the East were officially downgraded by 33-50% before being collated for intelligence purposes. That is the High Command knew they were grossly inflated and tried to bring some reality to the subject. Kill claims are exactly what they say-CLAIMS.




> s.Pz-Abt 501 operated in Tunisia. While there it achieved sixty-two percent operational rate of it's Tigers. It arrived before it's support platoons and had to go into combat without any maintenance teams. Yet s.Pz-Abt.501 managed to destroy a number exceeding one-hundred and fifty enemy tanks, of which all were destroyed by the Tigers of the battalion. They lost eleven while in Tunisia which was a kill:loss of 13.6:1. Of those eleven lost, three were to direct enemy action. The rest either broke down or were immobilised in a minefield and could not be recovered.
> 
> s.Pz-Abt 504 also operated in Tunisia. While there it achieved a fifty percent operational rate of it's Tigers. From 12 March - 12 May 1943 the battalion destroyed over one-hundred and fifty enemy tanks for a loss of eight Tigers. That's a kill:loss of 18.8. Of all those lost only two were lost to enemy action. That means that the kill:loss due to direct enemy action was an astounding 75:1! The battalion destroyed its remaining Tigers before the Afrika Korps capitulated meaning that a total kill:loss for the Wehrmacht was actually 6.8:1


. 

What a coincidence 150 kills for both Units! 300 Allied tanks destroyed by Tigers so it would seem the Pz IIIs , IV's, A/T guns, mines or Infantry weapons got a couple between them-even though combined these outnumbered Tigers by a factor of 20+. Willbeck has a lot to answer for!



> The _schwere Panzer Abteilungs_ were created to concentrate the deadly Tiger tank. They were envisaged crushing the enemy lines and destroying their artillery, providing a breakthrough and free roam for the lighter panzers. The employment also included the complete destruction of the enemy tank forces, without destroying the enemy armour a breakthrough will never be achieved. The Western Allies and Red Army were well known not to face the Tiger head-on if at all during these early years of it's introduction. In the Western Desert the Allied armour would simply move away from the Tigers and lay minefields infront of the retreat to trap and immobilise the Tigers.



In Normandy (where we can check German kill claims) it is noticable that there are no double score claims for the Tigers. In fact the Tiger had very little impact in Normandy and was simply flattened in the Allied Advance. The TII made its debut in Normandy and was never even noticed. On 18/7/44 several were destroyed, one even by a Sherman!
The majority of Tigers produced were destroyed in the East and Russian armour books are jam packed with photos of the blackened hulls of countless Tigers.


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## Soren (Oct 19, 2006)

*Yawn !* 

I'd really like to see a reliable source M_kenny.


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## m kenny (Oct 19, 2006)

Soren said:


> *Yawn !*
> 
> I'd really like to see a reliable source M_kenny.




zzzzzzzzzzzz............what.......whats that.........oh yeah, you want a 'source'. A source for anything in particular?
What is it you dispute? The 33-50% reduction?

Try Zetterling's 13th post down on this page.
Effectiveness of Tactical Air In ETO 44-45 - The Dupuy Institute Forum
As he is a published author I presume his word has more weight than mine.

a source that the 300+ kills by Tigers in Tunisia is bull?

Give me a credible source for specific claims (i.e. 40 Tanks of 48th RTR on Xth March) and I will respond.


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## Erich (Oct 19, 2006)

Greetings Michael

top two Königstigers, abandoned due to lack of fuel and then hammered at close proximity by the opposites armor. I've seen these pics back in the early 70's.

Well I do beleive that there was to much overclaiming by Afrika korp and their sources with the "new" Tiger 1. there were too many physical problems with the mount, engines and air cleaner system, andnyes I am well aware of the tropical filters supplied but eventually upon following the non-existant roads were clogged unmerciously by the driving sands. In my opinion the Tiger 1 and the nroth Afrikan desert spelled the death nell of the heavy beast.

Accounting for it's success in Normandy and on the ost front ~ Tiger 1 and later the Königstiger it must be remembered that individual action crew log books were lost, stolen or just plain vapourized on the field of battle. Have always wondered how mysteriously all of a sudden the units diaries just by chance came of age and books have been written in full fold. obviously there were some pretty amazing tales from both sides of the line, but also to Wehrmacht/W-SS/Soviet tank forces propaganda did play a huge moral booster for both the individual's units as well as for the families back home


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## Erich (Oct 19, 2006)

Michael just read Zetterlings post on the Luftwaffe effectiveness. Can hardly agree with him but are we looking to early war only and to what, the Panzerjagern or bombers or fighters with 500 lb boms I wonder ? Simply put even with specific panzerjagern staffeln to destroy tanks there just were not that many kills. I for one doubt seriously Rudels calim of 500 tanks to his credit, more like 200 if that as the second runner up is so far behind Rudel it isn't even funny.

lets see now SG 9 with the Hs 129 claimed about 150 tanks in their existance if my sources are correct.
SG 2, 3 and 77 all three of the Geschwaders had 1 Panzerstaffel equipped with the Ju 87G-1 and some G-2's. when you think even if it is a daily missions and sometimes up to 3-4, what can 15 Ju 87's of each staffel really perform, yes hundreds of tanks scored over time, but thousands ? some on the forum members are going to freak in my answer(s) but guys really think about this. . . . . 

On the other hand, lost are the records of the Fw 190F-8, Panzerblitz rocket units. The BA/MA that Nick mentions does not hold the records of at least 25 panzerstaffels that used the equipment that I mention, we can only take the words from surviving pilots that they indeed smashed many a Soviet tank. my personal feelings including JG 7 equipped with altered R4M's for the Me 262's is that they blew Soviet transport right off the roads, tanks on the other hand were hard to pop......


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## Joe2 (Oct 26, 2006)

mosquitoman said:


> From what I can remember when I went to Bovingdon, that particular Tiget was hit in the gap joining the turret and hull- welding the 2 together which led to the Tiger's crew thinking that it was disabled and ran away



Absolutly correcto-mundo


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## Joe2 (Oct 26, 2006)

Also another tale from Bovingdon, a cromwell crew sighted a king tiger and, knowing their puny 75mm gun could not defeat it, drove straight into the panzer (i cant remember what happend next )

Also on the subject of ramming; during the libaration of Paris in 1944,a French sherman Rammed a panther, and the crew got out, drew their pistols and boarded the Panther!! unfortunatly the Frenchies where killed by MG fire soon afterwords.


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## m kenny (Oct 26, 2006)

Joe2 said:


> Also another tale from Bovingdon, a cromwell crew sighted a king tiger and, knowing their puny 75mm gun could not defeat it, drove straight into the panzer (i cant remember what happend next )



I think you confuse the incident where a Sherman rammed a TII on 18/7/44 during operation Goodwood


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## redcoat (Oct 26, 2006)

Do you have the full story behind the photo 

Thanks


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## m kenny (Oct 26, 2006)

Axis History Forum :: View topic - Sherman ramming a KingTiger in Normandy...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 27, 2006)

Great pics there, and interesting story.


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 19, 2007)

That is a nice pic of a Tiger attack...or better said the seconds after attacking a T-34.


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## delcyros (Feb 21, 2007)

I am particularely interested in the last of the 4 pics above.
If I am not wrong, it shows a clear penetration of the front of an early Henschel turret of a T II. Have calculated some months ago that this is a weak spot in the armour design and penetrations might be possible under certain circumstances from reasonable close distances. I feel confirmed by this picture.


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