# US Fighters shooting down Soviet fighters - Berlin 1945 ???



## Omaha92 (Mar 30, 2005)

Hell all

I am currently reading A.Beevor's "The fall of Berlin 1945". Beevor says that US fighters once shot down Soviet fighters, mistaking the russian airplanes for german one's.

US pilots' mistake result was a serious diplomatic crisis between the two countries.

Have you heard about this and what exactly happened ?

Sorry if the subject has already been discussed. I'm a newbie ....  

Regards,

Omaha92


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## toffigd (Mar 30, 2005)

Honestly never heard of this. But it's possible if you're over enemy territory and expect mostly them...


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## P38 Pilot (Jun 22, 2005)

I have never heard of this before! Are u sure its true?! I mean the luftwaffe was practicly DESTROYED! Besides, the US allowed the Communist to attack Berlin! (Which i thought was a huge mistake!)


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## plan_D (Jun 22, 2005)

Why do you think it was a huge mistake? We let them waste a million or so lives trying to take it while we sat back. I think it was a great idea.


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 22, 2005)

When you put it like that I agree too


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 22, 2005)

It did happen, in 1945 a flight of P-38s over Romania shot up a Russian convoy and killed a general, thinking it was a German unit. The Russian ground commanders had a habit of not telling US forces when they advanced into a certain area, so I remember reading. The Russians didn't report the incident to US forces, but told their air support folks to shoot down any P-38s that venture close to Soviet lines. A flight of 4 P-38s were bounced by 9 Yak-9s. In the ensuing battle 2 P-38s were lost and if I remember right 7 Yaks were lost, the P-38 flight leader claiming 5. I don't remember names or dates but I do know the Soviets protested the incident, the 2 remaining P-38 pilots were sent home and the whole incident was hushed up until the Korean War years.


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## P38 Pilot (Jun 22, 2005)

You r right plan_d!! I just didnt like what the communist did too unarmed citizens. I would tell u what they did but i would be censored!!!! The Russian Communist r idiots! Having thier own men killed by making them charge into machine gun fire! I dont know whose worst: The Japanese or the Russians!


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## plan_D (Jun 22, 2005)

You're really hyped up about those Russians. Trust me, we know what they did. In the words of an East Prussian on the Russian atrocities "...it was our Holocaust but no one cared..."


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 23, 2005)

Shooting deserters was such a waste of time and resources.


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## Smokey (Jun 23, 2005)

P38 Pilot said:


> You r right plan_d!! I just didnt like what the communist did too unarmed citizens. I would tell u what they did but i would be censored!!!! The Russian Communist r idiots! Having thier own men killed by making them charge into machine gun fire! I dont know whose worst: The Japanese or the Russians!



In war all sides commit atrocities


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 23, 2005)

Of course.


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## Gnomey (Jun 23, 2005)

Interesting, I have heard rumours but nothing definite, really interesting.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 23, 2005)

This is from an Air Classics Article, Aug., 2002 by Lee K. Carr

"RECALLING A LITTLE-KNOWN BATTLE BETWEEN AMERICAN P-38s AND SOVIET YAKS 

This mission was flown by the 82nd Fighter Group 95th, 96th and 97th Fighter Squadrons - with the lead squadron being the 95th. Duration of mission was four hours. This mission was a request by the Russians, as a repeat support mission to be flown by the same group. The Russian ground forces had the Germans in retreat and, on the previous missions, the P-38s had done tremendous damage. 

The mission was briefed to attack enemy columns and rail movements between Sejenica, Novipasar, Baska and Nitrouica in Yugoslavia but before I comment any further on this mission, I would like to make it clear that Group Commander Colonel C.T. Edwinson, an experienced pilot with more than 4000 hours and a veteran of 27 combat missions, personally led the mission. Some of the information in this article comes from three outgoing messages then confidential and top secret, but now declassified. 

The first report was dated 13 November 1944 and was from Allied Forces Headquarters, Caserta, Italy, and directed to the War Department. This report gave an account of the mission after a detailed investigation concerning attack by USAAF Lightnings on a Soviet column in Yugoslavia on 7 November 1944. This report stated, "At about 60 miles southwest of Sejenica, the squadron split up and hit the deck and headed for their respective assignments. Colonel Edwinson's squadron arrived at what he thought to be Novipasar, found the road heavily trafficked and proceeded with his strafing - actually as verified by our camera later, he began his strafing at Krusevac and continued through Cicevan, to Nic." The report continued, "As his squadron completed its strafing and pulled off they were attacked by Red Air Force Yaks and in the first pass one Lightning was shot down. Colonel Edwinson immediately recognized the attackers as Yaks but, in the ensuing airfight before he could disengage and assemble his fighters, another Lightning and two, three or more Yaks were shot down. As his squadron was assembling, the Yak flight leader slid up to him and the two flight leaders confirmed mutual identification. Throughout this time the top cover squadron did not join the fray This was when Col. Edwinson immediately ordered the 95th Squadron to disengage. "It's the Russians, let's get the hell out of here," he radioed. I figure it was about this time that Captain Koldunov must have closed in with Col. Edwinson and flew formation until identities were clearly confirmed and all fighters immediately broke off combat. If this is what happened, it was very courageous. We all know it's rather hard to stop a fight after several blows have been swapped. 

I have wondered where the Yaks were when we started strafing. We did more damage on this flight than any strafing mission I was on in my 50 missions. 

Of the two P-38s that were lost: One was shot down in flames by a Yak, but we don't know if the second P-38 was shot down by a Yak or ground fire. The two pilots were Lt. Eldon E. "Gene" Coulson and Lt. Phillip Brewer. Lieutenant Keith Armstrong was hit by ground fire which knocked out one Allison, but he returned to base on single engine. Incidentally, during the aerial combat I might add Lt. George A. Bowers, Jr., was chasing a Yak and the pilot did his best to shake the P-38. The Russian did some barrel rolls so Lt. Bowers could only fire at him at the bottom of the roll. Finally, the Yak hit the deck and flew across an airfield in hopes of having the Russian antiaircraft shoot the P-38 off his tail. These were old German tricks but Lt. Bowers, seeing the planes on the airfield beneath him, dropped his nose and strafed across the field. This was never mentioned in any report. Lieutenant Bowers broke off at this time when he heard the Colonel's call. 

I didn't know what these fighters were until we returned to our base in Foggia, Italy. We all went through a very special interrogation on an individual basis with the brass from Wing Headquarters. Colonel Edwinson asked us to identify on a map the exact location we thought we had been strafing. I found where I was from a location of a church I kept as a point of reference. I was in the wrong area, but I still contend we could have been led into the wrong valley by strafing this convoy which had advanced too far. It has been commented that the Russians had failed to advise Foggia that, between the previous day's support mission, Russian ground forces had advanced the battle line by 100 kilometers. 

We were always, as a rule, three days behind the Russian intelligence, we had very little Russian aircraft identification, and we never had liaison between the air and ground forces involved on any Russian front. I was of the opinion we had a 50-mile line from any of the known Russian lines and after this incident officials set up restrictions prohibiting tactical operations closer than 80 miles from known Soviet positions. 

I could never blame Col. Edwinson. I still feel as I look back that such a mission was inevitable sooner or later and the law of averages would catch up with us. The many missions on which we supported the Red Forces, with very heavy German destruction, must not be overlooked."


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## lesofprimus (Jun 23, 2005)

Excellent post... I knew of this engagememnt, but not the details.........


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 23, 2005)

Thanks Les - Years ago there was an aviation calendar issued with a print showing this incident. It shows a P-38 blasting through a Yak like it was butter!


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## P38 Pilot (Jun 23, 2005)

Hey, it was the russians fault that they lost a general. If those ground forces had told the United States about where they were located at then it wouldnt have happened. But because the Russians love too be sneaky it happened. But what i think made this argument worst was the fact that russian pilots were now being told too engage and attack American or 

maybe even British pilots! They actully made this worst. They put "salt on the wound!"


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 23, 2005)

Agree - This was their way of doing business during the Stalin years!


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## Hunter368 (Dec 22, 2005)

Omaha92 said:


> Hell all
> 
> I am currently reading A.Beevor's "The fall of Berlin 1945". Beevor says that US fighters once shot down Soviet fighters, mistaking the russian airplanes for german one's.
> 
> ...



I am sure there was several times where USA and Russian planes fought. In Eric Hartmann's book "Blond Knight" he told of a fight he was in with the Russians and USA showed up in P51's and it was a all out fight between everyone. Eric shoot down 1 or 2 P51's in that fight before he got out of dodge and let the Americans and Russians fight it out. He did see several planes go down from both sides during the fight. Interesting for sure.


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 22, 2005)

My uncle flew Ferret Missions in a B-50 after the Korean War. He said he witnessed shoot-outs between Soviet and US fighters and said many of the missions he flew, their aircraft were armed...


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## Medvedya (Dec 24, 2005)

P38 Pilot said:


> You r right plan_d!! I just didnt like what the communist did too unarmed citizens. I would tell u what they did but i would be censored!!!! The Russian Communist r idiots! Having thier own men killed by making them charge into machine gun fire! I dont know whose worst: The Japanese or the Russians!



You are still a total muppet sometimes I see! I suppose you mean the same idiots who held out for 900 days in Leningrad, or resisted the Nazi invaders with practically their bare hands at Volokalamsk, or fought continuously for four years losing on average* 19,000 soldiers a day*, on a front that spanned from the Arctic to the Middle East and ran from the edge of the Volga over a 1000 miles back to Berlin? 

Have you also considered that what the Third Reich did to unarmed citizens in Russia, Ukraine, and the Baltic regions wasn't very nice either and although still atrocious, that the actions of many (but by no means all) Soviet soldiers in Germany were motivated out of revenge? 

In addition by 1945 those suicidal 'Urrah' charges had largely disappeared from Soviet tactics after the Red Army was re-organised in 1943. 

The *20 plus million *military and civilian Soviet dead you cheerfully describe as idiots made it possible for the Allies in the west to defeat the Nazis and win the Second World War.

A bit of advice - scenes from historical films can not be passed off as historical fact! Even if they do have Rachel Weise in then.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 28, 2005)

Medvedya said:


> A bit of advice - scenes from historical films can not be passed off as historical fact! Even if they do have Rachel Weise in then.



LOL  I Like the way you put that.


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## dysonsphere (Dec 28, 2005)

Perhaps you should remember Stalin killed more of his plp than the Germans did


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 28, 2005)

any source to back that up?


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## lesofprimus (Dec 28, 2005)

> The 20 plus million military and civilian Soviet dead you cheerfully describe as idiots made it possible for the Allies in the west to defeat the Nazis and win the Second World War.


Damn right Med...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 29, 2005)

That is very true, imagine if the Soviets had collapsed and then Hitler could have put his whole might on the West in early 1943.


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## Hunter368 (Jan 4, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> That is very true, imagine if the Soviets had collapsed and then Hitler could have put his whole might on the West in early 1943.



If that would of happened, which it should of if Germany armies were run by their Generals, it would of very interesting indeed. Mmmmmm


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## Smokey (Jan 5, 2006)

Yep, Hitler lost the war with his delayed attack on Stalin, and allied convoys seem to have been very important.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 5, 2006)

Exactly, the German commanders were never in charge eneogh. Hitler tied there hands behind there backs just eneogh with his demented ways and illusions of total victory.


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## Hunter368 (Jan 5, 2006)

Yup, small delays and small bad decisions cost Germany the war. Its all in the small details as they say.


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## R988 (Jan 8, 2006)

There is also the infamous story of Russian ace Ivan Kozhedub also was forced to shoot down two US P-51 Mustangs that mistakenly attacked his La-7


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## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2006)

No one is really sure that that incident happened... The supposed pictures of those 2 kills were proven to be innaccurate right here...


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## CurzonDax (Jan 25, 2006)

About the incident over the Ruskie convoy, from what I understand the USAAF P-38 pilots man handled the Red AF pilots with some ease. Training or better planes? I used to know what planes the Russians flew, I think they were Yaks.

:{)


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 25, 2006)

CurzonDax said:


> About the incident over the Ruskie convoy, from what I understand the USAAF P-38 pilots man handled the Red AF pilots with some ease. Training or better planes? I used to know what planes the Russians flew, I think they were Yaks.
> 
> :{)



Look on P1


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## CurzonDax (Jan 25, 2006)

I is blind. Thanx.

:{)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 26, 2006)

CurzonDax said:


> About the incident over the Ruskie convoy, from what I understand the USAAF P-38 pilots man handled the Red AF pilots with some ease. Training or better planes? I used to know what planes the Russians flew, I think they were Yaks.
> 
> :{)



Better aircraft and better training in my opinion. The Russian Airforce was strapped for experienced pilots after years of getting manhandled by Erich Hartmann!


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## CurzonDax (Jan 26, 2006)

Better aircraft and better training in my opinion. The Russian Airforce was strapped for experienced pilots after years of getting manhandled by Erich Hartmann! [/quote]

Now there is a movie I'll go see!!!!

:{)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 28, 2006)

Its not a movie, but fact. The Luftwaffe manhandled the Soviet Airforces for most of the war.


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## CurzonDax (Jan 29, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Medvedya said:
> 
> 
> > A bit of advice - scenes from historical films can not be passed off as historical fact! Even if they do have Rachel Weise in then.
> ...



You mean that Capra and Ford were stretching the truth? I am crushed!
 

:{)


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## CurzonDax (Jan 29, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Its not a movie, but fact. The Luftwaffe manhandled the Soviet Airforces for most of the war.



What I mean is that I would go see a Hartmann bio-pic. All those missions, the gulag, and so on and so forth! I would go see it. Who would play him though?

:{)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 4, 2006)

I dont know good idea. It would have to be someone young.


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## The Jug Rules! (Feb 6, 2006)

plan_D said:


> Why do you think it was a huge mistake? We let them waste a million or so lives trying to take it while we sat back. I think it was a great idea.



Yeah, and looked what happened after the war...


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## plan_D (Feb 6, 2006)

The Soviet Union collapsed, and all the Russians are still starving in their third world country. And?


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## The Jug Rules! (Feb 9, 2006)

The Berlin Wall. The escalting tensions between two countries with enough nuclear explosives to vaporize the planet.


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## plan_D (Feb 9, 2006)

And then?


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## lesofprimus (Feb 9, 2006)

Humpty Dumpty hadda great fall....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 10, 2006)

although he was, in reality properly shot for trying to get over the wall to west berlin..........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 10, 2006)

LOL

That made me laugh today, thankyou.


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 10, 2006)

Where does it say humpty dumpty was an egg though. Could someone tell me this, as there are no egg references in the rhyme whatsoever.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 10, 2006)

Good point actually.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 11, 2006)

yes he could have been a priceless Ming Vase ..........


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 11, 2006)

Or it could be communism...


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## pbfoot (Feb 11, 2006)

Didn't your book have pictures


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## plan_D (Feb 12, 2006)

Mine did, and it was quite clearly an egg. But then, as with all things during childhood it was a lie! The ryhme is about a cannon ...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 12, 2006)

well if it fell apart so easily it was proberly actually a sten............


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## plan_D (Feb 12, 2006)

The cannon didn't actually fall apart, as such. It was a Royalist artillery piece that was stationed next to St.Marys Church during the siege of Colchester in the English Civil War. A Parliamentarian artillery piece managed to smash the wall below the "Humpty Dumpty" which caused to go crashing to the ground. The Royalists could not replace it as it was so heavy, and Colchester eventually fell. 

Humpty Dumpty was a term in the 15th-16th Century for obese people. And the "Humpty Dumpty" cannon was named as such because it was so big.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 13, 2006)

wow, never knew that, that's quite interesting...........


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## Gnomey (Feb 13, 2006)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> wow, never knew that, that's quite interesting...........


Neither did I. Interesting stuff.


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 13, 2006)

Yeah, thats the sort of thing we can use to bore supply terachers with...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 14, 2006)

yeah Mr. Bough's pretty cool really, i got shit all work done but we had a good conversation.........


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## EAF51_Bear (Jul 13, 2006)

I believe in some other cases Russian and Allied where nearly engaging.

I rememeber having read an account - I do not remember if it was Johnnie Jonson's or Pierre Clostermann's - The accounts tells he was flying over Berlin, and a formation of Yak tryed to move on their 6 o clock. In the book he tells he cannot accept this, and the two formations - RAF and VVS - were manuevering in order to get the best firing position. Then the Russian decided to break.

The source must be, as far as I rememeber, one of the final chapters of one of the following two books:
Jhonnie Johnson - Squadron Leader
Pierre Clostermann - The big circle


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 13, 2006)

Tensions were allways high, but I dont think there was ever a time, when the allied poweres deliberatly attacked one another for that purpose.


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## davparlr (Jul 13, 2006)

plan_D said:


> The cannon didn't actually fall apart, as such. It was a Royalist artillery piece that was stationed next to St.Marys Church during the siege of Colchester in the English Civil War. A Parliamentarian artillery piece managed to smash the wall below the "Humpty Dumpty" which caused to go crashing to the ground. The Royalists could not replace it as it was so heavy, and Colchester eventually fell.
> 
> Humpty Dumpty was a term in the 15th-16th Century for obese people. And the "Humpty Dumpty" cannon was named as such because it was so big.



Great story! I love it. Does anyone know where the phrase "cold enough to freeze the balls off of a brass monkey" came from?

Okay, a cold war question. You are over Germany, circa late twentieth centry and you hear "Brass Monkey, Brass Monkey" on guard. What does that mean and what are you suppose to do?


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## mosquitoman (Jul 14, 2006)

Cannon balls were originally kept in a piece of metal called a monkey, normally made of brass. When metals get cold, they shrink so when the brass monkey was cold enough, the cannon balls would fall out because threy wouldn't fit

At least, I think that's where it came from


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## davparlr (Jul 14, 2006)

mosquitoman said:


> Cannon balls were originally kept in a piece of metal called a monkey, normally made of brass. When metals get cold, they shrink so when the brass monkey was cold enough, the cannon balls would fall out because threy wouldn't fit
> 
> At least, I think that's where it came from



Thats' what I heard.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 14, 2006)

But what does that have to do with the Cold War.

Intersting theory where it came from though..


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 15, 2006)

yes annother one i didn't know, it's strange how many sayings come from the military.........


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## Barrett (Oct 19, 2017)

One of my friends in the aces assn. had been a P-47 squadron CO. He described jumping a formation of unidentified single-engine aircraft near Berlin c. April '45. Back at base the intel shop naturally asked what type a/c but nobody could ID them. The IO got out the recognition manual and started flipping pages. Nobody recognized anything from the German section. Ooops. The IO flipped to Russia. Finally the CO exclaimed "That's it! Whatever it was we got 13 of 'em!" Shturmoviks. (I've been unable to confirm the event via Russian aviation historians.)


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