# Pierre H. Clostermann, Leading French Ace



## Maestro (Sep 7, 2004)

Greetings ladies and gentlemen,

I found the Clostermann's story over the internet. Hope you'll enjoy. (Pierre H. Clostermann... a French Ace with a German name, born in Brazil, and flying for the RAF... Could it be more messy ?)  

33 victories total (14 individual).

Born in February 28th 1921 in Curitiba (Brazil). Initiated to flight by the German master Karl Benitz, he received his pilot licence in 1937. Enlisted in the Free French Forces in 1942 and assigned to Free French Forces 341 Squadron in January 1943. Sent to 602 Squadron in September 1943, then sent to the Tempest equiped 274 Squadron in January 1945. He is named Squadron Commander of the 56 Squadron in March and end the war with 3 Squadron.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 8, 2004)

wow a french ace, i never knew they existed...................


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## Maestro (Sep 9, 2004)

Yes, and why is he an ace ?

Because he is born _outside_ of France !


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 9, 2004)




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## GermansRGeniuses (Sep 9, 2004)

Ya know, I've never been to Curitiba...

YET.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 10, 2004)

Heres some more info....

Pierre Clostermann was born on February 28 1921 at Curitiba, Brazil, where his father worked as a French diplomat. At an age of only sixteen he aquired his pilot's licence in November 1937. He was educated in Paris and studied engineering in USA when France fell...

In 1941 he joined the Free French Forces (341 "Alsace" Squadron). The following year he was transferred to RAF and 602 Squadron, where he served in Spitfire. During this time he destroyed at least 11 enemy aircraft, 2 probable and seven damage. 

On 4 March 1945 he joined No 274 Squadron and the Hawker Tempest. His first Tempest score was a Bf 109 on his second day during a "cannon test".
In the middle of March 1945 he was posted as a Flight commander to No 56 Squadron. With this unit he destroyed a Bf109 in the air. On 8 April he was transferred to No 3 Squadron as "A" Flight commander where he on 20 April scored two Fw 190D-9s'. 
Clostermann's final score in Tempest is at least 12 destroyed, 6 shared and 2 probables . He was awarded the DSO and DFC and Bar in addition to French, Belgian and American decorations. 

Final Total : 33 destroyed

19 FW-190 
7 ME-109 
2 Dornier 24 
1 Fieseler 156 
1 JU-252 
1 JU-88 
1 JU-290 
1 Heinkel 111

On the ground he destroyed :

7 JU 88 
6 DO-18 
4 HE-177 
2 Arado 323 
1 JU-252 
1 Blom-Voss

Add to it some 72 locomotives , 5 tanks , 1 submarine and 2 destroyers...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 11, 2004)

i didn't realise he was in a british plane, I always think of a British ace having to fly a british plane, a german ace in a german plane and so on..............


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## lesofprimus (Sep 11, 2004)

Well, the French didnt really have an airforce for a good bit of the war, so they had to fly somewhere, for someone....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 11, 2004)

i wonder how well he'd have done in a french plane...........


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## lesofprimus (Sep 11, 2004)

Not that well I'm sure...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 12, 2004)

deafinatly not, but that's what i mean about flying planes from your own country.......................


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## Janus (Jan 25, 2007)

Maestro said:


> Greetings ladies and gentlemen,
> I found the Clostermann's story over the internet. Hope you'll enjoy. (Pierre H. Clostermann... a French Ace with a German name, born in Brazil, and flying for the RAF... Could it be more messy ?)



Yea , just like H-J Marseille , a great German ace with a French name ( French protestants family that emigrated in Germany , Holland , Switzerland etc.. (we calll them Huguenot ) .. or the famous air strategist Claire Chennault ... 




the lancaster kicks ass said:


> wow a french ace, i never knew they existed...................



By stating this , you don't seem to know anything at all obviously ... or is it that you resort to showing mediocrity when French are concerned ?

For your knowledge , the French Air Force did extremely well in WWII , they shot down more German planes in the air than they actually lost , more than 70% of the planes they lost was on the ground , read the figures ... .

They had to face a full strength Luftwaffe with inferior planes and huge numerical inferiority , i am not talking about the small Afrikakorps detachment that made British forces flee for 1 thousands kilometers while in overwhelming numerical superiority ... or the few dozens of submarines that nearly made you starve ... talking about full strength German army , not just small and poorly trained garnisons on the normandie shores with a couple of planes ... In 1940 , Germany is the strongest army in the world , in 1941 they are knocking at Moscow doors , from Crimea , Greece , Africa to France and Norway .. they conqueered all Europe .. after that German army is scattered everywhere and far weaker . 

You make fun of French , but their biggest sin was to have land borders with Germany , and not safe on an island , had it been your people , it would have been even worse , seeing how British troops were fleeing at Calais in June 1940 , more concerned about going back to UK than help the French to fight .... and France wasn't as vast and unconqueerable as USSR , nor as much populated and militarised (Stalinism ) to sustain a long war effort .

Germany as a totalitarian regime , could field 7 millions men to attack USSR , France as a democracy where people are free , could field at best 1 million men in 1940 , it was also the first time the Blitzkrieg tactics were used .

Anyhow , back on your statement , obviously as a senior member of an aviation forum (note that the word Aviation was invented by the French , it's a French word as much as you seem to despise it ) you should know about the fathers of aviation , Louis Bleriot , Henri Farnan or Clément Ader !!!??? or figures like Rolland Garros ? Classics ........... 


Talking about French aces , what about René Fonck ( 75 victories , 5 less than Manfred von Richthofen , the difference is that Fonck was actually skilled/lucky enough to survive ) or Georges Guynemer (53 vctories ) or Georges Madon ???!!
France has one of the longest list of Aces during WWI and was building some of the best planes at the time until the 1930's ,and is nowdays building incredible planes (Mirage - 5 , Rafale etc.. ) FYI .... 

What about the Normandie Niemen squadron with aces like Marcel Albert or Roger Sauvage ??!! the Normandie Niemen was one of the most succesful Allied squadron of the war while having only a handful of pilots , even after the war Stalin granted them 33 Yaks personally in recognition .


In the RAF aces besides Clostermann , what about Jean Demozay(21) , Edmond Marin dela Meslée (20) or Pierre le Gloan (18 ) ??? 
FYI , Free French Force sent about 700 pilots , and the amount of French Ace compared to only 700 pilots is quite amazing from a neutral point view , not from a French xenophob view of course . 


By the way , something that the French invented in 1930's , which is the Echellonement , if you attended naval courses , you would know that , was Very useful and effective to fight the Luftwaffe on the Eastern front , such tactics were re-invented by the great ace Alexander Pokryshkin in the Eastern front and proved extremely effective against Luftwaffe's superior planes in speed (Bf-109 Gustav and Focke Wulfs) .





the lancaster kicks ass said:


> i wonder how well he'd have done in a french plane...........




Actually , in 1940 , the Dewoitine D-520 was superior and at least equal to the Spitfire in performance ......

But of course you do not know that ..... Had they could produce planes during the war , French Dewoitines and Bloch wold have become above average , French avionics was very much advanced at the time . Hispano Suyza , Bloch , Breguet , Morane , Potez etc.. they had A LOT of plane manufacturer with Great Savoir-Faire , for example their ground attack plane , the Potez was very good at the time . The problem is that France , unlike Germany and Britain , did sufffer a war in her own territory in 1914-18 , and was unwilling before 1939 to prepare for a war , when Hitler was gathering at Nuremberg with hundred thousand of militarised youth people , French leaders were discussing the paid vacations and social care insurance and more freedom for women .....

The French with their British ally tried everything to avoid this war and the country in 1940 was not in "war economy" mode like Germany , France was 1 year late , ,so the airforce had to import outdated American P-36's and British Hurricanes to palliate the low number of home build planes , and to rely on their own "old" planes like the Morane which was outdated (1934-36 plane ) until the productivity increase , they pilots still had very good results in the air with it given the circumstances , they actually had some of the finest and hardest training on earth at the time (almost on par with Japanese Navy pilots ) and could overcome their aircrafts shortcomings (like the great Finnish pilots did ) .


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## Erich (Jan 25, 2007)

I would suggest you get a little better attitude please ....... especially with this your first posting


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## Janus (Jan 25, 2007)

I am sorry , Erich i apologize , but there is obviously an anti-French xenophobia in their post , and i thought if some French see it , it would just feel quite disappointed . 

When you see this kind of posts without any argument in it , you want to react with energy and come with arguments , it is really not kind nor intelligent to post like this to slag a nation , be it the French , the Chinese or any other nation , especially since they are pioneers of aviation and this is the subject here .


But if i have offended anyone , please accept my apologies Erich .


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## v2 (Jan 26, 2007)

*An interview with a Free Frenchman, Mr. Clostermann,
By Alexandre Jaeg *

AJ: Hello Mr. Clostermann. Let's pass directly to the heart of the topic; what were the incentives, those of you and your colleagues, to volunteer for enlistment in the ranks of the FAFL, the Free French Air Force [les Forces Aęriennes Françaises Libres]?

PC: Well, in order to understand my response to this question, especially if you are a young Frenchman of today, it is necessary to realize that our generation experienced two major historical events: one was the war of 1939 to 1945; the other was the war in Algeria. I must say that for me and my colleagues studying at an American University at the time of the invasion of France the issue was straightforward. I am an Alsatian Frenchman as were several of my colleagues. Could we tolerate the German occupation of Paris? Aside from all philosophical and legal considerations for which the French had to answer the solution was simple for us: the Germans were in Paris, the Germans were in Strasbourg and for an Alsatian this meant that there was no alternative but to make war. 
I did not possess the fundamental constitution to make war at the time; in fact, the main attraction for me was the thought that I might receive the opportunity to fly a Spitfire. I had taken flying lessons while studying engineering at the American University and I had achieved commercial piloting qualifications; therefore, at this time already I had a lot of flying hours but this was piloting simple planes. In my mind was the desire to step up to the experience of piloting a real thoroughbred of the skies, the Supermarine Spitfire.
I left the university immediately in order to enlist in the FAFL. My father left a week prior to my departure.

AJ: Was your father a military man?

PC: No, he was not in the military; he was in the diplomatic corps. He left with the French military attaché, Martial Valin, who soon became General Valin, Commander of Free French Air Forces. My father and Marshall Valin arrived in London within a few weeks. 

My father wrote me a very beautiful letter that I have always kept. In his letter he explains that it is necessary to first take care of my mother and lady Valin and then to appreciate the opportunity before me, to volunteer to fight for one's homeland; this rarely occurs for a man just reaching his adult status in life. He emphasized in his letter how precious and important was this opportunity and that history by itself would not resolve the conflict and preserve the homeland; that only by the heroic actions of the homeland's young men and women would the land of our Heritage be preserved. He then urged me to travel to London as soon as possible after sending my mother and lady Valin off to Brazzaville [Congo]. Once in London he assured me that General Valin would assemble a FAFL squadron and that I could volunteer for this service or for flying duty in the RAF if the FAFL squadron was incorporated under the command of the RAF. I admit that I left for London with little enthusiasm for entering into hostilities.
Naturally, most of my friends expressed varied incentives for going to war. In France one often refers to the writings of François Labouchčre but I find that few read them unless specifically asked. He is often quoted as saying: "The most difficult aspect of defining one's duty is to actually perceive the correct path to take." I feel that this quote represents a shallow alibi for many especially those who have not read Labouchčre's complete essay. These individuals often express that they were caught up in the German invasion and had no time to act; therefore, their path was to remain at home and deal with whatever happened. If one reads Labouchčre's essay further he makes a strong argument for preservation of the homeland. He says that a responsible man must leave the comforts of home and enter into war against those that are invading, that this is the honorable path of duty. 


In 1942 François Labouchčre was betrayed and killed by the enemy. I knew his mother and sisters after the war; they were exceptionally good people and they were very proud of François's sacrifice for the homeland. They were an old French family of considerable means, all lost in the war, and most of their possessions were never recovered but they remained proud nonetheless. 

As for me personally my first priority was to pilot an aircraft. I reasoned that once I had traveled to England and joined up that the Free French pilots might become a significant force in the war. 

One of my friends, Henri Mattey, arrived on base out of uniform. He was wearing a sweater over a canary yellow shirt with socks to match and when we stood in our initial formation Commander Mouchette reproached him soundly. Henri didn't miss the opportunity and responded, "Yes, my Commander, I am out of uniform, dressed as a civilian, but I am here because I want to wage war against our enemy. Uniformed soldiers here are not nearly as eager for this as me." And he was right! You know, we were only a small cohort but the role of the Français Libres [Free Frenchmen] was out of proportion to our actual numbers. 

AJ: How many were you? 

PC: We had 600 Free French volunteers in the aviation branch of which 300 more or less were fighter pilots. I am referring to the time long before June 1942 when the Americans landed in North Africa; thereafter, our numbers were less. By the time the Alsace squadron was formed in Biggin Hill in May 1942 we had only 60 or 70 fighter pilots remaining. Overall, out of the initial 2500 Free French volunteers we had lost 400 by May 1942.

If one reviews the unit citations of the early Free French volunteers one finds that the aviators received many citations and awards. The reason for this is simple. Aviators were constantly at war flying missions daily; whereas, the Army and Marine volunteers were not constantly in a combat situation. For example, between the landings at Bir Hakeim, Libya, and the invasion at Normandy the Army and Marine Free French Forces experienced little combat. In contrast, the aviators were flying missions almost daily especially the fighter pilots. During this 700 day period I arose between 0400 and 0500 hours in the summer and 0600 hours in the winter to be on the alert status by 0800 hours each day. There were holidays here and there sometimes three weeks in duration but regardless during this period of 700 days the fighter pilots flew approximately 400 missions. This is a grueling pace and it takes a toll on the individual pilot.

After the war I realized that this division of intensity of effort was in fact a good thing. There are two philosophical statements that I find relevant to this. The first is from Paul Valčry's writings and the second is from the writings of Andre Paul Guillaume Gide. Valčry wrote that "to every terrifying time in human history one always finds someone sitting aside documenting the events and inserting wisdom into the situation," and Gide once wrote "without stubborn unyielding men much of what we cherish would be destroyed; these men are the salt of the earth!" If you reflect a moment on the time of the Second World War this is exactly what happened. These brave unyielding men preserved our way of life, our freedoms; they were exceptional people and of those that survived most have succeeded in outstanding civilian career accomplishments. You understand that it is not necessary to have achieved a high military rank or to have earned an award of honor and valor in order to succeed in civilian life after a war but simply to have walked in the path of someone defending the homeland; that was sufficient. And what is even more extraordinary is that this duty did not only fall upon the shoulders of the nation's youth but it fell also upon the backs of our older citizens. For example, Pierre Louis-Dreyfus, grandson of Leopold Louis-Dreyfus who founded the global Louis-Dreyfus Industries, entered the Free French Forces at the age of 32 and piloted a Boston Bomber [Douglas DB-7 family, A-20] in the Lorraine Group. Pierre was, of course, a multimillionaire. He purchased 29 Boston Bombers from Douglas Aircraft as a gift to the RAF; in addition, he did not accept a cent of salary for his piloting duties. Pierre flew 45 low-altitude bombing missions.
In this same vein there was also Roger Martin Du Gard (1881-1958 ) who worked in the Lorraine Bomber Group; he is noted for winning the Nobel Prize in literature (1937) and was in his late fifties when he served. Then, among others that I shall not mention, there was also Henri Deplante who later assisted in the design of the Dassault Mirage Fighter and finally, I should recognize Pierre Mendčs-France who entered service at the age of 33 years. 

(part 1 )


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## v2 (Jan 26, 2007)

AJ: Yes, he served as our Prime Minister (1954-55) in the Fourth Republic [I felt that it was necessary that I justify the years vested in the study of French history]. 

PC: Yes, and as I was saying, Mendčs-France also piloted a Boston bomber in the Lorraine Group. Few people know of this because he never made a point of it during his political years. If you please, I am only speaking of one squadron, the Lorraine Group, but you can multiply this by many fold to realize the magnitude of the Free French effort. So, to return to the question of the incentives of the people that joined the France Libre, well, the first and foremost reason for joining was that the Germans were in Paris. The second reason was that the Germans were in Strasbourg; both reasons amount to the same thing, our homeland was invaded and occupied by a hostile fascist regime and we could not sit down and allow this to develop into a permanent situation. Our homeland, our French heritage was at stake here.

AJ: But how did you weigh the risks to your life and limb against this threat? 

PC: The risks? You know, the risks to one's life were a part of the overall effort to reverse this invasion and we had no false illusion about that. Life is important but the moment that a fighter pilot sits down in the cockpit of a Spitfire he understands that his life could be cut short, blown away like the ashes in an ash tray. 

AJ: This is one of the things that I have difficulty conceiving and it is one of the primary reasons that I have sought out this interview; our generation may not be so willing to put their lives on the line in the name of a cause. I wish to understand this in greater depth. 

PC: Yes, I understand that; the youth of today have difficulty conceiving of a self-sacrificing ethic in the setting of war. If you please allow me to bring two things together for the purpose of this discussion, two concepts that have been misunderstood or forgotten. The first is the concept of duty, or I should say Duty with a capital D! The second is Homeland with a capital H! Have we lost the sense of our homeland, the earth of our fathers? Our homeland contains everything that we hold dear, our farms, our cities, our homes, gardens and parks, our highways…these things are our inheritance and if threatened we must defend against any threat. If we fail to defend our inheritance then we have nothing to transmit to our offspring, our inheritance is gone, revised, dissipated. It is our duty to defend this inheritance. I recall with a deep sigh the deep inner feeling that I had when I once again placed my feet on the soil of France shortly after the Normandy invasion. We had come back to our homeland, weapons in hand, and we were going to finish the fight and drive the invaders from our father's soil. Yes, the risks were great and the losses were enormous especially towards the end of the war when I piloted the Tempest.

AJ: As for example when you attacked an airfield and you alone returned out of eight or twelve aircraft? 

PC: Yes, we could send out six aircraft on a mission and only two would return. This unusually high loss was especially likely to occur on ground attack missions such as strafing enemy supply trains. We could not do much about this; the anti-aircraft coverage was intense and severe. The losses in the Free French Forces were similarly experienced in the RAF proper. You know, overall the Royal Air Forces and Royal Marines lost over 80,000 young pilots. The Americans too experienced heavy losses of airmen on their daylight bombing missions.

Now, when one speaks of the liberation of France there is one thing for certain, this would never have occurred if the RAF had lost the Battle of Britain in 1940. This event was pivotal in blocking the German advance westward. And this was accomplished in large part by the very young British men of the RAF, young inexperienced men still wet behind the ears so-to-speak yet willing to put all on the line for duty and homeland despite terrifying losses. If the Luftwaffe had won the Battle of Britain the Allies would have been in a dreadful situation, we would have been done. 

To come back to the issue of incentives and the ethic of duty and homeland preservation I believe these young men in the RAF demonstrated the full measure of these attributes for generations to come. We must not lose sight of what they accomplished and of the sacrifices that they made. I do not like to use big words but the phrase Free France [Libčrer la France] has great emotional impact on me. I could not go for a walk on the beautiful avenue of the Fields-Elysče with fifty meters of German flags staged along both sides and not react! When one sees the old newsreels from 1940 of the German troops passing under the Arc d' Triumph and parading down the Fields-Elysče one wonders how all of the Frenchmen could stand there and watch passively supporting the invasion. Why didn't they make posters or some small sign against the invading regime, it was a public event but no obvious dissention was shown. My fellow countrymen disappointed me at that time but later on the underground resistance movement helped to relieve my disappointment. 
AJ: Could you characterize some of your friends that joined the FAFL? 
PC: Oh dear, well, you know me, I boarded a boat and stayed on deck a lot enroute to Liverpool, England, from the USA; this was a picturesque journey with lots of time to reflect about my future. One cannot get much more picturesque than that. My friend Jacques Remlinger also interrupted his life, his university studies in England, boarded a subway and traveled to Liverpool! Still, there were some among us that had taken very risky paths to our point of assembly in England. One fellow actually rebuilt an old airplane in his barn in the countryside of France and then stole gasoline, drop by drop, until he had a sufficient amount to attempt the incredibly risky journey to England. 

He succeeded in crossing the English Channel and landed safely but unfortunately he was killed in action in the early months of the war. Here, I have a list of thirteen highly accomplished young men who left Toulouse in the mid-Pyrenees section of France on or about June 18, 1940, for England; of these thirteen, twelve were killed in action in the war. In the Normandy invasion fourteen Free French pilots from the Alsace squadron had the honor of being the first across the French coastline. Six months later only three of these fourteen were still alive. Our losses were very heavy. We had to develop a mental anesthesia to these losses in order to function from one mission to the next. 

AJ: And at the end of hostilities did the mental anesthesia remain? 
PC: What shocked me then and after hostilities was the severe drama of a crash in flames, the pilot burned severely, but still alive with no hope for survival. Often a physician would administer several morphine injections to ease the horrible pain and agony; it was humane euthanasia and it was practiced on a large scale in this impossible situation. We did not have the knowledge to care for severe total body burns at that time. Sometimes we tried to salvage what we could and used immersion techniques, submersion of the burned pilot in salt solutions or gentian violet solution but this led to prolonged agony and death was inevitable in a few agonizing days. We had no antibiotics, no penicillin; the Americans had some penicillin but they were misers and did not make it much available to us. 

AJ: In regards to your enlistment in the military you have not mentioned how you received notification; could you elaborate on this process?

PC: Are you referring to the call up of June 18th? [1940] 

AJ: Yes. 

DeGaulle's character was extraordinary. Here is my favorite photo of him. As you can see he is pensive, thoughtful, and strong. The photo was taken on June 14, 1944, on the beach at Courseulles-su-Mer at the time of the landing at Normandy. This date is four years to the day when he arrived in London, June 14, 1940. 
AJ: Ah yes! 

PC: Is this strange? Not at all! It is the wheel of destiny! General DeGaulle arrived in London with nothing. He was alone, desolate, shipwrecked, but he set up an office in an empty room with a table, two armchairs, and a staff of one French officer to serve as his aide. This was the Français Libres! 

AJ: But how was it that DeGaulle could act as the central point of unification of the Français Libres? 

PC: Ah! That is nothing short of a miracle! You know, France always had a lot of luck, luck that she did not always deserve, but here came DeGaulle and this truly was a miracle. It is not easy to explain how one individual could struggle against the English, the Americans, the Germans, the Russians, everybody including his own friends, his allies, his enemies, with such a determined narrowly focused goal: To return France to total independence, a free republic once again or even a country with laws similar to a free republic, or even anything else resembling a republic. One is struck boldly by this fact that DeGaulle alone could unify this effort. Think of the millions of men that the allies mobilized; whereas, we, the Free Frenchmen, were not capable of recruiting 800,000 men at the start of hostilities nor two years later yet when the war was finally over DeGaulle had achieved French equality with all other Allies. This is a statement in support of his incredible will. 

The Americans, the English, and the Russians could have eliminated him from the final Allied negotiations but they did not dare. This speaks loudly of his strength of character. I believe that in life there are people that have great strength, enormous will out of proportion to most individuals. DeGaulle was an example of such an individual. The first time that he received me I left the room feeling impressed and humbled. 

(part 2)


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## v2 (Jan 26, 2007)

AJ: He was indeed very impressive. 

PC: Yes, indeed, he was very impressive! In my life I have met two very impressive characters: Pope Pius XII and our father Charles DeGaulle. I was not the only one who felt this way; many of my friends have also expressed a similar view. There was something in his character that expressed intellectual strength, moral integrity, and honesty. I believe that he will remain a great figure in the history of France. It is our good fortune that we had him at this particular moment in time. Imagine for a moment that there was no DeGaulle. The English and the Americans would have invaded at Normandy and the Russians would have taken Berlin and finished the war. And that would have been that. The Americans would have installed a government in France. You may not realize this but it was Roosevelt's idea to create a State that was to be called Nordland consisting of northern France, Belgium, Holland, and Luxemburg. In this type of arrangement France would have become a small part of a larger State and would have been controlled by the United Nations Organization for a twenty year period following the end of hostilities. Empires would not exist anymore. America would have exerted much political and economic control, I believe. As for French Africa, well it disappeared more or less as an American mandate. It was orchestrated well. 

AJ: To return to the central theme of the interview, would you be able to speak about your first encounter with hostilities in the war; what were your feelings? 

PC: You know aerial dogfights in WW II lasted only a few seconds. Most people do not realize this but the fight began and ended very quickly and always unexpectedly. In the fight one had to focus all attention on every aspect of the battle. It could arrive in a fraction of a second and end as quickly yet the memory could last for days or weeks on end. A full week could pass without any action then on Monday of the next week everything could happen at once, a cafouillis. And do not forget that the planes were flying at great speeds often crossing paths at greater than a thousand kilometers per hour. That is fast! You may not quite appreciate it but at these speeds one's reflexes were extensions of the plane itself, instantaneous flying without thought; there was no time for choosing between options, it was all instinct. It was also necessary to have some luck. Personally, I experienced a lot of luck during the war or I would not be alive today. I caught a bullet in the right leg; that is the extent of my injuries after nearly three years of aerial fighting. I cannot explain it except to believe in the concept of luck. 

AJ: How did you feel at the end of a mission? Were you tired? 

PC: Yes, I was exhausted! 

AJ: Morally too? 

PC: Nervously, yes; it is all nervous exhaustion. As I mentioned the fight occurred so fast that we managed only by trained reflexes. At the end of the mission we had time to think, to reason, to re-play the mission in our heads, and this process took a nervous toll on us. 

AJ: When you left on a mission did you feel assured that you could return or did you think fatally? 

PC: One of my friends, General Andrieu, once said, "The worse thing about the guillotine is living through the evening before the execution." Please understand that Andrieu was not wrong; a similar devilish mental strain applied to the fighter pilot when, in the evening, he was thinking about the day's mission, the mistakes made, and all the while he knew that tomorrow he must start anew. But after a shower, a meal, a beer, and communion with your comrades, it was possible to feel somewhat normal again for awhile. During the period before the invasion of Normandy the fighter pilots were the only ones to make war on more or less a daily basis. Sometimes it was surreal to meet with these military folk who were not waging war but who worked in factories, in offices, and who were in another universe from us; it often reminded me in retrospect of the dialogues [small talk] portrayed in Dino Buzzati's novel, Heron. Occasionally, we met in the middle of these people who went to restaurants, to movies, or to a bar in the evenings, and we felt like foreigners; it often felt like a terrifying Scottish shower to meet in a normal universe after having been in a madman's universe for an hour or two shortly before. In fact, this interaction facilitated the onset of mental or nervous fatigue. 

AJ: There was something that personally shocked me as I read your book, The Big Show. It seemed to me that sometimes as you described your aerial encounters and victories that you may have felt the air war was something of a game or sport and that the notion of death [opposing pilot's demise] was not mentioned, was paradoxically absent. 

PC: Yes, viewed from the outside an aerial dogfight can be a magnificent object of geometry and physics. An aerial fight can be very beautiful if one manages to separate one's self from the event in a sterile manner and hold that a human did not die there, that this was only an exercise, a matter of geometry and aerodynamic physics in space. Everything happens very rapidly. It is necessary to find the solution to an equation in two to three seconds and every problem that presents itself can be quite different from any previous problem or experience. It is difficult to… 

AJ: But what were your feelings about your adversaries that fell in aerial combat? 

PC: At first I saw only a metal airplane with black crosses; I didn't see the man. And then one day I flew very close to my adversary and I saw his face clearly, I saw the man, and it disturbed me. The full picture of the situation passed through my thoughts like lightening. Here in the 20th century humankind can be very civil towards one another, write literature to this effect, study the humanities in peace, but here in aerial combat we meet in a separate but distinct primary universe, a universe where there is only life or death, no civility, no study of the humanities. I wasn't quite prepared for this revelation. 

Before the war I studied in an American University close to the beach in Malibu, California, near San Diego and Hollywood. This environment was like a dream world. I learned to pilot in the evenings in a magnificent aero-club. I loved the study of fluid mechanics. Studying in a university was like a dream, a wonderful privilege. Coming out of this dream-like environment into the hostile environment of war where one meets individuals that want to kill you; in fact, they are determined to kill you. This was a madman's universe and it is necessary to understand the fatigue that this environment induced. 

We flew nearly every mission to 10,000 meters altitude without cabin pressurization and we breathed pure [100%] oxygen. I must tell you that everyone's lungs paid a high biological tax for this. We have all experienced pulmonary problems since the war. In addition, we experienced both negative and positive G-forces without the benefit of a specialized fight suit. Often the negative G-forces experienced were in the range of -2 to -3 and the positive G-forces were commonly +5.0 to +6.6. We often lost vision and consciousness for several seconds. This was a major factor that contributed to our fatigue. 

Finally, we piloted planes that were very difficult to fly, even dangerous for that matter. This was especially the case near the end of the war flying the Hawker Tempest for example. These planes were real thoroughbreds designed and built for high performance. They were not in the class of the adorable Spitfire. The Tempest required constant attention to every detail. In ground attack missions it was easy to put the plane into the ground and on final approach it was necessary to attend to every detail, especially the air speed, or else one could die easily in a second of wandering attention. This induced pilot fatigue greatly especially over a prolonged period of time. 

Fortunately, there were periods of brief reprieve. For example, when we were stationed forward in Belgium, Holland, and Germany, we could not become operational immediately because the Americans had uselessly bombed the airfields the week before so we had to wait for repairs. This bombing of the airfields had an adverse effect on out adversaries in that it pushed them into a fight to the death. 

AJ: I have read that the Germans attempted to promote the advance of the Allies but impede the Soviet advance near the end of hostilities so that they would fall into the hands of the Allies opposed to the Soviets. 

PC: Yes, certainly, very certainly, the end game was played out badly. In this war as in all wars there is a human element that influences the final outcome. This was the case in Napoleon's time and it was true in 1945. The admiration that Roosevelt had for Stalin was an example of such a human factor yet Stalin was a cold monster. 

AJ: Did you know about Stalin at that time? 

PC: No, good Lord, no. He was widely known as a great figure but he was like an anaconda, a marvel of nature but very dangerous. Their idea was-they often met-:"We are going to bring peace to the world for two centuries. We are going to share the world. You shall occupy this part of the war torn world and we shall occupy that part. Each of us shall maintain peace in our regions of responsibility." Their arguments and agreements were deadly serious but after hostilities two-thirds of Europe was in the hands of the Russians and by the year 1950 we recognized what this really meant with respect to individual liberties for those living under Russia's communist control. It was absolutely dramatic. You know what they say…"the road to hell can be paved with good intentions." 

Andre Malraux foresaw this very well, or at least he is the individual known best to have written about it. I hope that you have read Malraux's writings? 


(part 3 )


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## v2 (Jan 26, 2007)

AJ: (I indicated small ashamed signs confessing the fact that I had not read Malraux) [Translator's note: Andre Malraux (1901-1976) was Minister of Culture alongside Charles DeGaulle from 1958-1969; he fought against colonialism in Indochina, fascism in Spain, and Nazi Germany.] 

PC: Oh my! Oh dear me! Ooooh! He was a communist to his death. He made war in Spain. He created a bomber squadron there in 1936. He was an astonishing character. He became a good friend of De Gaulle who liked him and appreciated him a lot. He was a man of very pure judgment; he always demonstrated a storehouse of wisdom and compelling expressions. 

Well now, after this highly philosophical history lesson let us come back to the main theme of our interview. 

AJ: Yes! To repeat, how did you personally consider your German adversaries? 

PC: Very well! The pilots, yes! Ah, certainly, I considered the Luftwaffe, the pilots, as equals. If by chance one was shot down it was accepted that it was preferred to be captured by the Luftwaffe, not the Gestapo, or the Waffen SS, or even the Wehrmacht. In a general sense at this time all pilots, specifically all fighter pilots, formed an international organization similar to the "Mafia." 

For example, even before the end of the war the Allies received five Messerschmitts, Me 262s, flown in by Luftwaffe pilots; this also occurred one day following the Armistice. Did these adversaries have a concern about their safety and welfare? No, as long as they fell into the hands of British and American pilots. These Luftwaffe pilots were held prisoner for a week then three were given civilian clothes, money, papers, and returned to their homeland. The other two (one of whom was Hans Ulrich Rudel) preferred to be held prisoner but by the English, not the Americans. These two were placed in an English POW camp with chocolate, cigarettes, and other nice amenities such as a few drinks. Their accommodations were almost akin to normal living. Even though they did not speak English they managed to communicate well with their British captures. There were never any problems reported. 

During this time I became friends with many German pilots. In fact, I am the Godfather to Hans Ulrich Rudel's son born after the war. As you know Rudel is one of the most decorated and accomplished Luftwaffe pilots of the war. Hitler actually created a special decoration just for Rudel. 
AJ: What was this decoration? 

PC: It was the Knight's Cross with Swords, Diamonds, and Oak Leaves of Gold. This was very special, nothing ignoble, worth much more than money. [Note: On October 25th of 1943, Hans Rudel was awarded Swords to his Knights Cross with Oak Leaves. In early March of 1944, he flew his 1500th mission and was promoted to the rank of Major] 

The Russians finally requested that the Americans should turn over all Luftwaffe prisoners with more than 100 documented aerial victories; in addition, all Me 262 pilots were requested. Contrary to the record for all other Germans who became prisoners of the Soviets most of these Luftwaffe pilots returned home 10 years later. 

AJ: Erich Hartmann is an outstanding example of what you speak of, correct? 

PC: Yes, but when Erich Hartmann returned from Soviet captivity he weighed only 37 kilograms (81.4 lbs). 



AJ: Were you also friends with Adolf Galland? 

PC: Yes, I knew Galland well; he was a friend. But my closest friends from the Luftwaffe were Gunther Rall and Hans Ulrich Rudel. They were close friends; I went to their homes and they came to mine. 

AJ: Does it appear absurd to you to be willing to kill these adversaries in the sky yet become close friends with them on the soil? 

PC: Certainly! Precisely! This was our leitmotif, to be adversarial pilots during war yet to be friends in peace. We all believed that as fighter pilots we belonged to an elite species of mankind from our respective countries that superseded political dogmas; did you realize that we never witnessed a Luftwaffe pilot addressing a comrade with the tense outstretched arm of the Nazi salute. They greeted one another in the usual military salute even in the presence of Hitler. The only pilot that used the Nazi salute was Hartmann when Hitler presented the Cross of Iron with Swords and diamonds. All of his friends reprimanded him for this and reminded him that he could not hide it because it was recorded in a newsreel of the occasion. 

AJ: Was this more the expression of the fighter pilots rebellious mind set or was it a mark of their political opposition to Nazism? 

PC: I believe it was snobbery towards the regime. Fighter pilots were, in general, not blind supporters of Hitler or of the politics of the time especially in the beginning of hostilities; to become a German fighter pilot was considered a privilege in most German families as was the case in France during the First World War (1914-1918). Fighter pilots generally were recruited from the privileged social classes, from aristocratic families. 

AJ: Didn't the Luftwaffe fighter pilots consider themselves Nazi's? 

PC: No! For example, Rudel was a simple young man with no strong political views. I could discuss Hitler with him for hours and whatever I did not understand he would openly explain. He really did not view Hitler as we view him in the post-war era. For Rudel, Hitler was someone akin to a president of a republic. For Rudel and other Luftwaffe fighter pilots their view was that he had provided them with some magnificent flying machines. Most fighter pilots held this restricted view of Hitler; they knew that without Nazism they would not have had their state-of-the-art flying machines. 

AJ: Didn't they have any specific political or ideological incentives? It seems to me that this view that you are presenting is a little puerile. 

PC: Well, with respect to well defined political incentives I did not perceive that the Luftwaffe fighter pilots held any such incentives. You know, Germany is a young country. Before Otto von Bismarck [Minister-President of Prussia from 1862-1890; he engineered the unification of numerous States of Germany into a German Empire] Germany was only 12-14 principalities. It was not a country like France. France and England along with Austria and Russia were the only structured European nations in the late 19th century. Germany practically did not exist. Otto von Bismarck and Guillaume II d' Allemagne created the German nation (or Republic) in the castle of Versailles after the war of 1870. 

Rudel was from the northern area of Germany; his father was a Protestant minister. These were very simple folk. They did not have any political engagements to speak of. It is for this very reason that he could not directly enter into the elite Luftwaffe; he entered the Luftwaffe through the backdoor, straight from an aero-glider club. These clubs were popular at the time before the war. Lufthansa, the commercial airlines of the time, was being secretly converted into a war machine. Rudel wanted to become a fighter pilot but these positions in the Luftwaffe were reserved for certain aristocratic young men. However, Rudel worked his way into the position as pilot of a Stuka dive bomber [JU 87] and his accomplishments with this unglamorous aircraft will forever be written in the annals of aviation history. 

AJ: There is one aspect of this history that I find illuminating, that illustrates the absurdity of war. It is the story of your German cousin who piloted Me 109G-10's in JG 300 during the early part of the war. 

PC: Ah yes! There again, in Germany, there are the Rhenish, the people of Germanic origin that lived for generations along the Rhine. The Rhine was always considered simply a street until Bismarck and Hitler underscored it as a boundary demarcation. The folk that lived along the Rhine viewed the artificial demarcation as odd or as even with respect to the individuals that lived on both sides, the Rhenish on the Germanic side and the Alsatian and Lorraine regions on the western side. Individuals on either side are usually quite sensible but the two World Wars clearly defined our artificial differences. 

You know, after the war there were not a lot of archives to review on the German side so it was difficult to ascertain accurate information about my Germanic cousin. I found out most of the information from his aunts and I did manage to recover a few photos from a few German archives that were not destroyed. My cousin was indeed a pilot for the Luftwaffe and it gives us a sharp perspective regarding the absurdity of some wars. His name was Bruno Klostermann spelled with a K in the German language but with a C in Alsatian.
AJ: From where is your family origin? 

PC: My family is from Obernai, Alsace, France. [Alsace is like a narrow ribbon from the Swiss border in the south up to the German border in the north of Strasbourg; Alsace is cradled by the Vosges Mountains and the Rhine] My mother was from Forbach, Lorraine. We had a bountiful childhood. 

AJ: Did your family origins ever pose problems for you with the FAFL? 

PC: No, my mother was ferociously anti-German as was all of Lorraine. My father was a good, patriotic Alsatian, anti-German similar to my mother. My mother always called the Germans the Alboches. It is an actual name but the word boche does not exist by itself. Alboche is derived from a tribe in the region that was called the Alboches. 

The Alsace region did experience some trouble between Catholics and Protestants; without the revocation of the edict of Nantes Alsatians would have never experienced this problem. In my own family the problem was dramatic at times. Historically, the Protestants migrated from Alsace into Germany and the Catholics remained behind. My distant cousin, Bruno Klostermann, emigrated with the Protestants that eventually ended up in Germany, Holland, and even England. 


(part 4 )


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## v2 (Jan 26, 2007)

AJ: I ask the following question in relation to something that I have read. It concerned the amazement of an emissary of the British government during his visit to Los Alamos, New Mexico, USA, the site of the top secret Manhattan Project, the development of the atomic bomb. He noted that most individuals around him spoke with a Germanic accent and had Germanic names. After the war did your name of Clostermann affect your peaceful return to civilian life? 

PC: In the Free French Forces those that had enlisted before November 1942 were given priority to demobilize from the military so I immediately requested my discharge papers and found myself waiting in a long line, not saying a word; I fondled my combat pay bonus (equivalent to about 20,000 Marks), my three shirts, two pairs of socks, and finally I returned home. My father was again on assignment in southern Africa. The first thing that I did was attend a confessional with our local priest. 
AJ: Ah yes, to revitalize the spirit? 

PC: Yes, that is about all one can say. 

AJ: In the last chapter of The Big Circus it is possible to obtain an impression that you were feeling some sort of regret; is that true? 

PC: Yes, that is true. The first sensation that we all experienced was loneliness akin to that felt by factory workers immediately after closing of the workplace. We were lodged, fed, paid, and then nothing, the absence of any recognition or activity induced a terrible emptiness. I remember my friend Jacques who told me: "You see my old friend, they are not going to need us anymore. We are left to our own devices and we have not been prepared for return to civilian life. It will be unpleasant!" It is always like this for military men after a war. It is classic, the memories of places and events, of friends lost or injured… 

AJ: Did you experience post war trauma akin to what we refer to today as post traumatic stress disorder? 

PC: Ah, no, no, I do not believe so. I had the foresight not to replay my fighting experiences in my mind, not to allow the memories to creep back into my brain but that is very difficult so for therapy I went on a prolonged serious fishing trip up the Seine with a fishing rod in an old BKW. I lay down in the Inns along the sluice. The Seine at the time was very easy to navigate and it was not polluted; there were all kinds of fish and I caught nearly every species that swam the river, trout, carp, and many others. 

This was a lovely experience for me. I slowly recovered my fundamental French origins. And I also had an experience with the French administrative problems of the time. This was gloomy. I was accustomed to English efficiency but the French government workers were not up to the challenge of efficient management at this time. I recall that I had to redo some papers, my driver's license, my identification card, my passport, and some other less essential documents. In order to accomplish these tasks it was like a bullfight that you can scarcely imagine. I was considered an ex-POW! I would respond, no! I was not a prisoner! But to admit to not being a POW seemed to be derogatory. 

Finally, in one office I was told that I had to go to the first office of tobacco in order to obtain an emblem to be worn by all French prisoners on their jackets. This was all too incredible and very aggravating for me. The government employees certainly lacked understanding and compassion for a Free French patriot. At one point when I was being questioned about my prisoner status and why I was denying it I suddenly yelled something to the effect that I was not a former prisoner because "I could run more quickly than everyone else!" 

AJ: Let's move away from this topic a little because I have some additional personal questions that aviation enthusiasts will want to know of. 

PC: Of course! 
AJ: How did your experience in flying the Spitfire affect you? 
PC: Oooooh that! Well, I must tell you that everyone who has flown a Spitfire has never forgotten their moment in the cockpit. For me it was love at first sight and it positively affected my early opinion of the war. It was winter and when I first saw my Spitfire I leaped from the truck and rested my gaze on this beautiful plane resting like a jewel in a white velvet case on a carpet of snow. She was factory fresh covered in gray matt camouflage paint with no black exhaust trails oxidized on her sides. She had only the colorful rosette of the RAF insignia on her wings and flanks. 

The Germans called her the oeillade of the peacock because of her beauty. My God but this plane was a beauty! She had feminine lines with the soft curves of a woman's hips all around a bubble of plexiglas for the canopy that sat calmly on her fuselage. In spite of her wing cannons she had the grace of a swan. There was something beyond the first impression beauty of the Spitfire that caused a certain reverence, a silence whenever she was discussed among the pilots. Even today, a generation later, the friends of my son refer to the Spitfire with reverence as if there was something mythical about her. 

AJ: We can say that between us this same romantic mythical feeling about the Spitfire still exists today. 

PC: Ah yes! Then you too realize the beauty of this magnificent plane! Today, fifty years after the Battle of Britain, the old pilots of the time show a tear of admiration whenever they set eyes on the beautiful lines of the Spitfire. For them it is as though they are remembering their pretty petite fiancée of the first aerial love of their life. Today's young pilots only dream to try it, to have one flight in the Spitfire. But beware! Just as a woman mistreated if the Spitfire is mistreated it will take vengeance and kill. 

I found written in the archives a piece from Corky Miller, a test pilot for Grumman, who wrote something astonishing about his flight in the Spitfire. It is as if one is reading an account of a virgin experiencing her first encounter. Corky miller writes: "There is no question that the Spitfire has one of the most beautiful silhouettes of all of the major fighters to evolve from the drawing board. Her elliptical wing and long fuselage are beautiful to watch in flight or on the ground. The long nose and the rearward elevated attitude in flight promotes much improved pilot visibility compared to other fighters where one is obliged to roll partially inverted or to zigzag in taxing in order to maintain adequate visibility. I was warned prior to my test flight that her hydraulic pumps were troublesome, problematic, and that I should not trust the brakes. As soon as I placed myself on the flight line and arrived at the moment of truth I applied throttle and I was delighted with her acceleration. She lifted off in a short 150 meters into a wind of only 20 knots. She climbed like a Japanese Zero. Any shortcomings of this plane that had been expressed to me prior to this test flight had completely vanished in my mind by now. A slow speed stall at 110 km/h revealed only a slight drop of the right wing. She responded and recovered promptly from the stall as soon as I re-applied power. Despite the busy array of instruments and switches in the cockpit that is typical of British planes I found that I did not need any compensators; everything was located where it seemed natural. Her stability on the three axes was sufficiently sensitive to delight a fighter pilot yet sufficiently stable to permit smooth flying in turbulent air. I felt that the Spitfire was a better pilot intrinsically that her pilot riders in the cockpit. Aerobatics were a delight. She responded to my thoughts apparently without any effort. Her qualities of flight were so marvelous that I proceeded on with a few reverse Cuban eights. They were no more complicated to perform in the Spitfire than to eat a piece of cake. Upside down I hung in the harness but found it quite comfortable. I never derived as much pleasure in flying any fighter as the Spitfire. She made me feel comfortable in any attitude of flight. Now I gained some understanding how the pilots in the Battle of Brittan could form up repeatedly day after day, exhausted, yet admirably succeed in their mission and in the end defeat the Luftwaffe. I confess that my Tomcats, Wildcats, Hellcats, and the Corsairs and Thunderbolt P-47s are beasts of burden compared to this thoroughbred, the Spitfire. She is analogous to an Arabian stallion. As for the landing she was no more difficult than to down a dry martini." 

AJ: That is eloquent! 

PC: Yes! And it was written by a well-known test pilot of fighter aircraft. Most pilots who flew the Spitfire remember it fondly. Presently, there are about 50 Spitfires still flying in refurbished condition. The only problem is that in some of the restored the engines are not typical of the original Merlins or Griffons; the sound of the Rolls Royce engines was always something special. Later on in the war when I transitioned from the Spitfire to the big raw Hawker Tempest Mk V, well, let me just say that I was in another universe altogether. It was similar to comparing a gazelle to a rhinoceros. To me it was as if the war had changed and this was now the most difficult part. 

The last four months of hostilities the German pilots were infuriated and more aggressive. I had the impression that they said to themselves, "let's go for broke!" It was understandable though because most had lost their homes, their cities, their families, and their children. This was the result of the bombardment of the civilian population and contrary to the conventional wisdom this only served to increase their resistance. 

(part 5 )


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## v2 (Jan 26, 2007)

AJ: Did you have the opportunity to fly other types of aircraft? 
PC: Oh, I flew several types of Allied planes but I did not have the opportunity to fly any of the German planes. 

AJ: What did you think of the P-51 Mustang, the so-called flower of the American aviation industry? 

PC: Yes, well it was a beautiful plane but it was not as worthy as the Spitfire in my opinion because of the weaker match of engines to airframe; it was a wonderful fighter primarily because of its long distance flight capacity. 

AJ: Did you have any doubts about the reliability of your airplanes? 

PC: No. I never experienced a mechanical problem with my Spitfire, never, never, never! I crossed the English Channel over 300 times on combat missions and never once experienced a problem in the least. 

AJ: How long were your missions in general? How long did it take you to cross the English Channel? 

PC: Some missions lasted only 20 minutes. It depended upon where we crossed the Channel. In some areas the Channel is very narrow whereas in others she is very wide. The missions generally lasted 90 minutes in the Spitfire but once we began flying the Hawker Tempest the mission time increased to 2.25 hours. We could leave our Holland airfield in the Tempest, make a combat tour of the Berlin area, and return to base in 2 hours or longer at 600-700 km/h. There were often items that became stuck in the undercarriage because we often flew very low but even so all went well in general, it was marvelous. 

You asked me about what one was possibly thinking during the dogfights. I have never published this passage before but it may provide some additional insight into your question. 

We were on flight patrol over Brighton during a rain storm and two Focke- Wulfs slipped under us and bombarded the station before we could intervene. We finally intercepted them but one passed me missing me by a finger's breadth. My wingman pulled hard but could not avoid wing to wing contact with one of the Focke-Wulfs 190; however, he was able to land on a nearby beach and by some miracle he pulled himself from the wreckage. Before he crashed he ordered me to pursue the Focke-Wulf because it was damaged and slightly lame and to take it down without question for him! 

I immediately engaged in the pursuit and finally caught up with the Focke-Wulf in the middle of the Channel but my weapons were locked and would not fire. This was a rare problem with the new Spitfire IX c. I continued the pursuit and drew closer to the damaged Focke-Wulf noting that it was slowing down and losing altitude slowly. A small sly flame appeared on the left of his canopy that was immediately followed by a gray smoke trail. I thought, he cannot go much further. The pilot should exit his plane and jump; there was still sufficient altitude to open his parachute and land safely, and I would warn the British patrols of the situation. A prisoner is always interesting to interrogate. I could not shout at him. There was no way for us to communicate. "Change silly!" "Change before it's too late!" Imperturbable, the pilot of the Focke-Wulf continued to lose precious altitude. As we approached the Cape of France the pilot gave me a shy salute; 500meters, then 300 meters, then 250 meters… 

AJ: At that moment did you consider escorting it? 

PC: I further attempted to communicate with him by writing on my forehead. We finally approached a very low altitude of approximately 20 meters. 

AJ: But how did the German pilot react to your efforts? 

PC: He did not show any visible reaction to me. Apparently, what he wanted above all else was to return to France his home base. Shortly, there appeared punctuated puffs of black smoke indicating engine failure. Prudently, I edged up closer from behind, to within a few meters in order to get a closer look at this man in distress. At one point I could clearly see the pilot's stained face for he had removed his oxygen mask. The Focke-Wulf was now so low it was flying at the level of a stream. I thought, he is going to die. He is finished because one does not put a fighter aircraft into the water without suffering complete disintegration 99 times out of 100. Suddenly I felt that I did not want to witness this final, fatal event; especially, I did not wish to witness the death of this young pilot. At this instant the concept that this was but a game similar to those that we play in a circus in order to win a teddy bear for a girl that we just met ran through my mind. We pull up on a machine of aluminum decorated with black crosses in order to fire and bring the machine down but one doesn't think of the man inside. When the man comes into view the machine is no longer just decorated metal but it contains a human with flesh and blood just like mine. In the cockpit sits a human brother who has a mother same as me yet he is going to lose a life, a life that could reflect my own life. Why? For whom? I did not want to see this as it was about to happen. I did not want to witness this young man losing his life, a life similar to my own. He is a pilot same as me. He probably has blond hair and, as me, he is probably about twenty years old. I realized that in a few seconds he was going to die right under my eyes. Oh my God, no! I felt like I had also died as I looked behind and saw the long frothy wake of the disintegrated Focke-Wulf. Dear God, this war is too monstrous! Why did we make this war? Why did I make it? 

An hour later I was in our mess hall drinking tea with my friends Jacque and Max. With a stern face I confirmed the victory: "Yes, the pilot died. No, I would never know his name." 

"Hey Clo-Clo, why are you making such a stern face," Jacque responded. "Hey, well, I believe we have already discussed the ramifications of our aerial victories." I felt very weary and could no longer continue with this discussion so I excused myself. 

AJ: I believe that we should stop here. 

PC: Yes, well, will you share a cup of tea before you take your leave? 

*This interview with Pierre Clostermann was made by Alexandre Jaeg for school in February 2005. It's probably one of the last interviews made with Pierre Clostermann. *


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 26, 2007)

Janus said:


> I am sorry , Erich i apologize , but there is obviously an anti-French xenophobia in their post , and i thought if some French see it , it would just feel quite disappointed .
> 
> When you see this kind of posts without any argument in it , you want to react with energy and come with arguments , it is really not kind nor intelligent to post like this to slag a nation , be it the French , the Chinese or any other nation , especially since they are pioneers of aviation and this is the subject here .
> 
> ...



hey, cut the attitude problem, a quick read of any of my other posts will show you that i hate the French as, do many others, with damn good reason, i find it quite ammusing to read your posts, trying to make feeble excuses in defence of the French, i only need to state two facts in reply- Paris was reached or nearly reached 3 times by the Germans in 70 years, which is really quite shocking, and that infact at the start of the war it was infact the French with the largest army, and the entire country was taken within 6 weeks, less time than to capture Norway! you cannot defend the French- when it comes to war they suck! and you'll find no one on the site that agrees with you, and why have you listed French aces from WWI? looking a little desperate there! and as for the Aviation being a French word comment, i commend you defending your language but you're pissing the world off, English is the international business and aviation language of the world, there are more countries speaking English than any other language and there are almost double the number of people in the EU that can speak English than French, give up on the language, it's dead! furthermore George Cayleigh is most often said to be the father of Aviation

to conclude-

I am the site's most senior member and no one on the site will agree with you and your feeble attempts to defend France

as the ney guy it is your job to earn our respect and your job to learn more about the site- it is obvious you have done neither and will never do so if you carry on like this

The French are not God's gift to warfare- they are God's gift to the Germans  

lastly, stop coming on here acting high and mighty, respect has to be earnt just because you're older than me or have been to Naval college, you are not my superior, you're just another idiot coming on here spewing his attitude, you make me sick.........


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## ndicki (Jan 26, 2007)

The RAF disputes Clostermann's claims, just out of interest. I have the revised figures somewhere, but I can't be bothered to look. They are not, needless to say, quite so high.

He apparently claimed an FW190 on a sortie he came back from with his gun-muzzle covers intact...


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## bigZ (Jan 26, 2007)

I read Clostermann's book 'The Big Show' a fasinating read.

I had an uncle(Flt/L N Snelson) who flew typhoons. Acording to 2nd hand familiy accounts he force landed his typhoon(Feb 45 N of Rees according to loss lists) on what he thought was a farm only it turned out to a Luftwaffe base. Apparently he underwent torture and later escaped with a Russian POW after being force marched(these guys where so hungry that after marching through a turnip field their was not one left. I would appreciate if anyone could tell me how to find out more on my uncles war time experience.

I have read accounts of Spitfire pilots being asked to volunteer to fly typhoons. None stepped forward as it was considered suicide to fly ground attack missions in the Typhoon.


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## Erich (Jan 26, 2007)

what Typhoon group/squadron ?

try RAF Commands 1939 - 1945 and post a question there .......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 26, 2007)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> The French are not God's gift to warfare- they are God's gift to the Germans





Dont let him get to you Lanc. He is a Noob!


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## Janus (Jan 26, 2007)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> hey, cut the attitude problem, a quick read of any of my other posts will show you that i hate the French as, do many others, with damn good reason



So you have the mediocrity to openly assume racism against a friendly people on a forum and still act like you are a worthy poster , any healthy human being would lose respect for you seeing that ...



the lancaster kicks ass said:


> i find it quite ammusing to read your posts, trying to make feeble excuses in defence of the French, i only need to state two facts in reply- Paris was reached or nearly reached 3 times by the Germans in 70 years,



I don't make feeble excuses , i put you ignorance in evidence and posted historical facts that show it in daylight , but as you seem a shallow person , i wouldn't bother making your education anymore on this subject . BTW , it was twice , not 3 times , but you talk crap anyway , history didn't begin in 1870 , someone Napoleon conqueered the whole Europe for two decades until Egypt , and like the first Military academies in Western Europe were in France , or like the Crusaders , Templars , Hospitallers were actually overwhelmingly French all Grandmasters of the Orders were French except 1 exception , just like the finest Cavalry was French at the time , in fact they always have been extremely succesful in war especially between the 16th and 19th century were they were a dominant force in Europe under Louis XIV , XV , there are tons of things to say but that's probably going too deep for you and too long to post . 



the lancaster kicks ass said:


> which is really quite shocking, and that infact at the start of the war it was infact the French with the largest army,



Bullsh .. , they had barely 800.000 men at their disposal , they had a full size German army , for your information Germany fields 7 millions men in June 1941 for Barbarossa .... 

Anyhow it's cheap and convenient to brag about 70 years later and blame French ,Italians etc.. , when actually , it was the fact that you were on an island that saved you , and that you never won a war alone in your whole history , France did , many times .... And you should thank our American and especially our former Soviet Union friends (that destroyed between 80% of the German army ) , they did the job ..



the lancaster kicks ass said:


> and the entire country was taken within 6 weeks, less time than to capture Norway! you cannot defend the French- when it comes to war they suck!



Bulsh.. again , they didn't take the whole country , they took the northern part , they surrendered because they didn't want Paris to be destroyed and their country to turn into a battlefield again , the country wasn't fully recovered from an ecnonmical crisis and WWI . 




the lancaster kicks ass said:


> and you'll find no one on the site that agrees with you,



So you are arrogant enough to engage the responsibility of other people to back your own vices ?
It takes some nerve but you'll probably find a couple of moron to support you , tbh i don't give a penny about it , some French used to tell me " tell me who do you get on with , i will tell you who you are " ..




the lancaster kicks ass said:


> and why have you listed French aces from WWI? looking a little desperate there!



You claimed that you didn't think French aces existed , i just proved you wrong , simple .

I only restricted myself to only 3 WWII aces to make short , but i could quote more , but i'll need to research which i can't be bothered at this point , especially to share anything with someone filled with ignorance and xenophobia and who on top of all , is proud to show it to everyone ...



the lancaster kicks ass said:


> and as for the Aviation being a French word comment, i commend you defending your language but you're pissing the world off, English is the international business and aviation language of the world, there are more countries speaking English than any other language and there are almost double the number of people in the EU that can speak English than French, give up on the language, it's dead! furthermore George Cayleigh is most often said to be the father of Aviation



I don't think anyone ever contested that English is the International language , they are free and personally i think it's great that they try to protect and promote their language who is spoken in dozens of countries across the world , that doesn't prevent them to learn other languages like German , Russian Spanish , Italian .... something people like you are most likely incapable seeing your hostilty against the French which shows a narrow mind .

That has never been the subject of this thread btw , thanks for sharing your ignorance again . 




the lancaster kicks ass said:


> to conclude-
> I am the site's most senior member and no one on the site will agree with you and your feeble attempts to defend France
> The French are not God's gift to warfare- they are God's gift to the Germans
> .



You should be proud of you , Great conclusion , you look really smart .
And German are God gifts to Russians ,Italians are cowards , French doesn't how to fight , they only know cheese and wine ? good , continue like this , i hope that you will not raise your child with this mentality , because you seem to be a lost cause already i'm afraid ...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 27, 2007)

> BTW , it was twice , not 3 times , but you talk crap anyway , history didn't begin in 1870 , someone Napoleon conqueered the whole Europe for two decades until Egypt , and like the first Military academies in Western Europe were in France , or like the Crusaders , Templars , Hospitallers were actually overwhelmingly French all Grandmasters of the Orders were French except 1 exception , just like the finest Cavalry was French at the time , in fact they always have been extremely succesful in war especially between the 16th and 19th century were they were a dominant force in Europe under Louis XIV , XV , there are tons of things to say but that's probably going too deep for you and too long to post .



hehe, it's 3 times, 1870/71 Paris taken by German states, mostly Prussia, the romoval of France as a threat unites Germany- WWI Germans stopped 30 miles short of Paris, it's the Marne river that stops them, the French spent the rest of the war on the defensive after the mutiny and it's left to the British to clean up, that's along with our victories in the middle east and the naval blockade, i think you got a pretty good deal out of us! and Paris again taken in WWII, why didn't you learn a lesson first time around? and don't talk to me about Napoleon, incase your garlic eating teachers were too biased to mention this, it was us that beat him, on our own infact, and we had the largest empire the world has ever seen, we controlled 1/4 of the world.s surface and 1/3 of the population (unless i've gotten that the wrong way around) but either way, it's bigger than anything the French ever got, and whilst we were industrialising you guys were still back in the dark ages, so don't even try that one, and the comment about us having won no wars on our own is laughable, we have fought and won all over the world and have been doing so for many a year now...........



> they didn't take the whole country , they took the northern part , they surrendered because they didn't want Paris to be destroyed and their country to turn into a battlefield again



Vichy France was given more autonomy but ultimately there were a captured territory, infact after we bought back thousands of French soldiers off Dunquirke, they simply went back to Vichy France, wasn't that nice of them! and surrendering is having your country taken, "no no, we weren't captured, we surrendered" is laughable.........



> they are free and personally i think it's great that they try to protect and promote their language who is spoken in dozens of countries across the world , that doesn't prevent them to learn other languages like German , Russian Spanish , Italian .... something people like you are most likely incapable seeing your hostilty against the French which shows a narrow mind .



it's actually quite an irony but i studied the French language for 5 years and out of a year group of roughly 250 people, i was the best in the year at French, so really i'm not _that_ incapable  .........

but it's like Adler said, you're the new guy here, i shouldn't get so wound up about your throwaway comments that look like they're straight out of a French history book, you may continue to contest things with me if you wish, but i shall continue to laugh as most of your comments are hogswash, judge me as much as you want, i don't really mind that because you don't know me, you're simply making yourself look ignorant spewing all this "France is great" rubbish, you should just considder yourself lucky i'm not a mod with your attitude here...........


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## lesofprimus (Jan 27, 2007)

Piss on the French...


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## ndicki (Jan 27, 2007)

When you look at most of Napoleon's campaigns, he was an utter failure! The only significant campaign he actually won was the Central European campaign, culminating in Austerlitz. For the rest, he got clobbered. Read up on the Egyptian or the Peninsula campaigns, for example. They don't seem to mention those in French schools, now, do they? Of course, they have to mention Russia, but they can use the weather as an excuse to hide their true strategic incompetence.


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## ndicki (Jan 27, 2007)

I'm hostile to the French, and I haven't got a narrow mind!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 27, 2007)

there'll be no getting through to him.......


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## ndicki (Jan 27, 2007)

Perhaps his mind is too narrow, and he can't understand why in every other culture in the world, the French are not well looked upon. (I have deliberately restrained the force of my language so as not to offend him or cause him to feel unloved.)


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## lesofprimus (Jan 27, 2007)

Who gives a rats ass.... 

Ive been all over the Globe and met inhabitants from 4 Continents, and the French people as whole were the most inhospitable and rude populace...

And this toad isnt even from France...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 27, 2007)

Janus said:


> So you have the mediocrity to openly assume racism against a friendly people on a forum and still act like you are a worthy poster , any healthy human being would lose respect for you seeing that ...
> 
> I don't make feeble excuses , i put you ignorance in evidence and posted historical facts that show it in daylight , but as you seem a shallow person , i wouldn't bother making your education anymore on this subject . BTW , it was twice , not 3 times , but you talk crap anyway , history didn't begin in 1870 , someone Napoleon conqueered the whole Europe for two decades until Egypt , and like the first Military academies in Western Europe were in France , or like the Crusaders , Templars , Hospitallers were actually overwhelmingly French all Grandmasters of the Orders were French except 1 exception , just like the finest Cavalry was French at the time , in fact they always have been extremely succesful in war especially between the 16th and 19th century were they were a dominant force in Europe under Louis XIV , XV , there are tons of things to say but that's probably going too deep for you and too long to post .
> 
> ...



No actually Lanc is very well respected in this forum. However you my friend are just a Noobie. You come in here with the attitude. You have to earn your respect and you have not done so.

You disagree with Lanc that is fine, but you dont go straight into the thread and insult him. Im giving you a warning for this attitude. Keep it up...

*You claim that Lanc is arrogant and ignorant. YOu have proven me your ignorance and that you are very naive. The same things you blame Lanc for you do in your own posts.*


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 27, 2007)

lesofprimus said:


> Who gives a rats ass....
> 
> Ive been all over the Globe and met inhabitants from 4 Continents, and the French people as whole were the most inhospitable and rude populace...
> 
> And this toad isnt even from France...




I agree with you fully. I have been all over the world and the French allways give that "We are ze french, we are ze greatest gift to ze world!" With there damn noses stuck up in the air.

It is a shame that a city like Paris is overun with French. I really enjoyed the 4 times I have been to Paris but it would have been better if the French had not been there.


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## ndicki (Jan 27, 2007)

You want to go in August. The worst of the SOBs are all on holiday either on the south coast of France (you'd be surprised how few French people actually never really leave France - good thing for the rest of us, though!) or going round the canyons in Utah!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 27, 2007)

Last time I went to Paris was last August. Took my wife there for her Birthday and our Wedding Anniversary. I really like the city (but would be better without the people) especially the University area, it has great restaurants and for a better price. I remember sitting at a Cafe near Napoleans tomb and drinking a beer and I paid 11 Euros for it. It was also the nastiest beer I have ever had. 1664 it was called and was on par with Budweiser.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 27, 2007)

> It was also the nastiest beer I have ever had. 1664 it was called and was on par with Budweiser.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 27, 2007)

Have you tried it. The French serve it in an small fruit punch bowl (like a man wants to drink it in a fruit punch bowl) and it has a nasty sweet flavor to it. The French waiter said it was the best beer...

...Crap if you ask me.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 27, 2007)

Ive had it man, and I didnt finish my second one.... But u and I are alike in our distaste of Bud....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 27, 2007)

You could not finish your second one. I could not finish the first.


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## v2 (Jan 27, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> You could not finish your second one. I could not finish the first.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 27, 2007)

The only thing I truly enjoyed in France was the art, architecture and of course, the nearly infamous Smash Sandwiches of Toulon...


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## Janus (Jan 27, 2007)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> hehe, it's 3 times, 1870/71 Paris taken by German states, mostly Prussia, the romoval of France as a threat unites Germany- WWI Germans stopped 30 miles short of Paris, it's the Marne river that stops them, the French spent the rest of the war on the defensive after the mutiny and it's left to the British to clean up,



Bullshit the French in clearly inferior numbers had the front stabilized in 1917 thanks to a hard fough war , they fought very well actually given their numerical inferiority ,and their aviator were better than yours ... and it's not the Marne river you ignorant FOOL , it's the episode of the Taxis of the Marne whe,nthey manage to get Hundred Thousand of soldiers in time to block the Germans . Ignorant . 



the lancaster kicks ass said:


> that's along with our victories in the middle east and the naval blockade , i think you got a pretty good deal out of us! and Paris again taken in WWII, why didn't you learn a lesson first time around? and don't talk to me about Napoleon, incase your garlic eating teachers were too biased to mention this, it was us that beat him, on our own infact, and we had the largest empire the world has ever seen, we controlled 1/4 of the world.s surface and 1/3 of the population (unless i've gotten that the wrong way around) but either way,



Yes i know , you always attack the weak and divided people through history , recent history is no different , that 's why the Germans called you "Neidische Albion" , the cowards that attack only the indigens and weak , and that never won a major won Alone , always through alliances , had you had Land borders with Germany , you would have been destroyed even easily .
But indeed you can flatter your national ego with having defeated the Scots , the Irish , and the Indians etc.. Well done !  

By the way , STFU , i ain't French , I'm Russian and proud to be , married to a French and living in Paris , i own that nationality now , and let me say you one thing , without my people , you' d speak German today , and We Kicked their F.. arse in case you don't know and more than once , just like the French crushed them in early 19th Century for more than 15 years , not just 4 , and defeated Otto in the 12th and later on gave them other major defeats , the first German victory against France occured 9 century after France was born ...



the lancaster kicks ass said:


> it's bigger than anything the French ever got, and whilst we were industrialising you guys were still back in the dark ages,




Not that bigger , and your indutrialization was made possible thanks also to French scientists and German scientist , 30 years in nothing in history , especially at the time , besides , it never prevented them to pioneers and good inventors in science , philospphy and military material (or is the inventor of Nobel , raidocativity finder , penicilin , or Pasteur , Lavoisier English ? you moron , there are about thousands case to quote , you don't equal them in that regards , especially the Germans , the French contribution to Western civilisation is at least equalt to yours ....) 



the lancaster kicks ass said:


> so don't even try that one, and the comment about us having won no wars on our own is laughable, we have fought and won all over the world and have been doing so for many a year now...........



You never won any war alone you mediocre moron , you got your butt kicked in the Hundred Wars , you won a few battles against a divided France , once they united , they kicked your arse badle at Formigny and Castillon , you got owned , under Louis XIV , they kicked your arse again , everything you tried failed against them at the time , their country was the most powerful militarily , under Napoleon they kicked you arse again for 2 decades , until you got whole Europe to find under your banneer and they lost more because of lack of troops , unity and support , their troups were exhausted to fight against the whole Europe throughout 15 years , same happened to the Germans in WWII , may i remind you that we Russians were the first to defeat him convincingly and ALONE .

By the way don't mention WWI , because your contribution next to France and USA is ridiculous , not to mention that this war was started Mainly because of you British scum politicians , Germans were far more motivated to beat you than the French , the French were closer that's all .

It's funny that some Nazi nostalgic in this forum side with you , you were their worst ennemy by the way , but today many simple minded get interested and in love with Nazi Germany when they actually don't know **** about what really NSDAP was , only thing they like in it is race hierarchy , miltarist and warmongers ideals , not talking about their anti-Jew racism , but their political stance , especially against the Albions hiding on tehir island waiting for Mother USA to save them , apparently have been forgotten .




the lancaster kicks ass said:


> Vichy France was given more autonomy but ultimately there were a captured territory, infact after we bought back thousands of French soldiers off Dunquirke, they simply went back to Vichy France, wasn't that nice of them! and surrendering is having your country taken, "no no, we weren't captured, we surrendered" is laughable.........



You brought back SHITE , you FLED in 1940 , your soldiers were afraid , whilst the French were rushing to the front , you the English were trying to embark at Calais and Dunkerk .... the French fought with you , side by side , you didn't , you fled ... 


By the way , might you understand in your small mind , that in France before 1940 , about 40% of the population was right-wing and pro-German , and were actually trying to institute a dictature of this sort , you have to take this into consideration when you speak about surrender , if you have the slightest idea of what is it to suffer a modern war on your own territory and have troops that are unmotivated and divided by politics .

It's not my country btw , what is laughable is your arrogance based on the fact that strangers saved your ass , now you take advantage of it to insult other people that are friendly toward yours . By the way one of this stranger was USA , and France send thousands of soldiers under Lafayette to help Americans get their indepedance , and sold many huge territories to them , today you can see the Statue of Liberty , a France gift to America .


Anyhow , i don't answer to your other xenophobic but especially ignorant BS , you have the same understanding of history as a 6 years old , so i leave it to you to have a selctive memory and puke some incomplete notions of history that suits your hate .

What is really incredible , the real point of this thread , is that external people will see how this forum and his moderator give me warnings , while they let someone openly spray his ignorance , that doesn't even know basics of Aviation history , but especially openly shout his racists stance s with real impunity , this is a proof that this is not a forum for educated people and what you only do is fuel and ecnourage the rest of the world , not only the French , to HATE you , and you will pay it in the future , but you'll probably not see it nor have the ability to understand it . I leave with this last message , there is no interest whatsoever to speak with people like this .

Cheers moron .


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## pbfoot (Jan 27, 2007)

I'm sorry to inform you that France lost the fight for North America in the Seven Years war and swapped their rights to N America for the islands of Guadeloupe and Martinique


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## lesofprimus (Jan 27, 2007)

Janus said:


> this is a proof that this is not a forum for educated people and what you only do is fuel and encourage the rest of the world , not only the French , to HATE you , and you will pay it in the future


This is about the only thing that stood out.... The "we'll pay for it in the future" part is extremely hilarious.... Are the French going to sell Nuclear Munitions to the "bad guys" in the future oh Nostradamus???

I think its a fuc*ing joke that this retarded argument has gone on this long, the moreso because its a Russian and a Brit having it... Janus, ur sh!t is as weak as is the country of France... Mostly blah blah blah... U will not find anyone here who has pity for ur small inconsequential feelings, or the fact that u were attempting, weakly I might add, at making this a racial thing... Ur a frog lover and a Ruskie, which aint sayin much pal... 

I myself could never stand the sight of a woman with armpit hair and hairy legs, but hey, to each his own...

Now the Russian people as a whole I admire and honor for the sacrifices and hardships they had to survive throughout Communism... That being said, heres a few funnies for u to choke on with ur morning croissant....


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## lesofprimus (Jan 27, 2007)

Janus said:


> this is a proof that this is not a forum for educated people


Oh, and by the way, this little quip gets u another official warning for being a smartass knowitall frog lover.... Now ur up to 8 warning points outta 10... 

Almost time to say bye bye...


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## Gnomey (Jan 27, 2007)

Janus said:


> Bullshit the French in clearly inferior numbers had the front stabilized in 1917 thanks to a hard fough war , they fought very well actually given their numerical inferiority ,and their aviator were better than yours ... and it's not the Marne river you ignorant FOOL , it's the episode of the Taxis of the Marne whe,nthey manage to get Hundred Thousand of soldiers in time to block the Germans . Ignorant .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haha, talk about bullshit, most of this post isn't worth replying too (so I won't bother with it - be like talking to a brick wall - except more dense and hard to get through too). I will respond to the first part though, the French did not stablise the front in 1917 by themselves, there were over 1 million British and colonial troops not to forget the first drips and draps of the Americans coming over to fight. Also being in trenches it is really easy to defend and really hard to attack - look at the casualties (especially the first day of the Somme).

We are not the ones who are ignorant you are...


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## plan_D (Jan 27, 2007)

As it's only natural that I get involved;



> For your knowledge , the French Air Force did extremely well in WWII , they shot down more German planes in the air than they actually lost , more than 70% of the planes they lost was on the ground , read the figures ... .



The French had 740 *modern* fighters and 140 bombers worth a mention. The fighter numbers were bolstered by 350 aircraft from Britain; which is a total of 1,090 fighters. This is not including the reserve aircraft and British Air Forces in France. 

France apparently lost 757 aircraft during the German western offensive, how many were on the ground I can admit that I do not know. The Allies deployed around 1,500 aircraft all together with reserves of 3,000. They were inferior numercially on the front-line, but not overall. 

The fact that most of the Luftwaffe numbers were made up with bombers, as they were the offensive arm, shows that even if the French achieved a kill:loss ratio in their favour it is hardly surprising. Because most likely the Luftwaffe would have achieved a fighter kill:loss ratio in their favour. 



> They had to face a full strength Luftwaffe with inferior planes and huge numerical inferiority , i am not talking about the small Afrikakorps detachment that made British forces flee for 1 thousands kilometers while in overwhelming numerical superiority ... or the few dozens of submarines that nearly made you starve ... talking about full strength German army , not just small and poorly trained garnisons on the normandie shores with a couple of planes ... In 1940 , Germany is the strongest army in the world , in 1941 they are knocking at Moscow doors , from Crimea , Greece , Africa to France and Norway .. they conqueered all Europe .. after that German army is scattered everywhere and far weaker .



The French did not face the full strength of the Luftwaffe. The only people that did were the RAF during the Battle of Britain. Even the VVS or USAAF over Germany did not face the full strength of the Luftwaffe. 

The Afrika Korps were not alone in Africa, they had the Italians too. Which made the Axis powers in North Africa out-number the British and Commonwealth. If you are attempting to defend your country, do not resort to false accusations of mine. 

The "few dozen" U-boats that you mention that nearly starved Great Britain are not a dim light in the British history of World War II. Those "few dozen" were actually 1,500 U-boats deployed by Germany. 

The full strength of the Wehrmacht did not attack France. Germany had 5.4 million men in the Wehrmacht and over 2,500 tanks - this did not attack France. It was around 3 million men and 2,000 tanks, which the Allies met with 3.3 million and 5,800 tanks (3,100 were modern - 1,500 were FT-17s). The French had, in the north, 2.2 million men so I have no idea where the magical number of 800,000 comes from - unless you're talking solely about the Maginot Line garrison. And this doesn't include the 7,500 artillery pieces the Germans had with enough ammo for six weeks (how ironic) which was out-numbered by the Allied 14,000 artillery pieces!



> You make fun of French , but their biggest sin was to have land borders with Germany , and not safe on an island , had it been your people , it would have been even worse , seeing how British troops were fleeing at Calais in June 1940 , more concerned about going back to UK than help the French to fight .... and France wasn't as vast and unconqueerable as USSR , nor as much populated and militarised (Stalinism ) to sustain a long war effort .



Now, this assault on Britain is uncalled for and shows ignorance. Great Britain abandoned a losing situation in France; the government had the sense to retreat to a defendable position. We weren't in Calais, it's amazing you don't know that, but in Dunkirk - and we saved 140,000 French and Belgian troops as well as our own. 
I should point out now that the BEF was there to help you, but our priority was to defend our nation; not yours. French soil is French concern, British soil is British concern. Too right the British were retreating - France had failed to hold their flank, lost Sedan and continually lost the plot to leave the British forces encircled and on the brink of destruction. 



> Germany as a totalitarian regime , could field 7 millions men to attack USSR , France as a democracy where people are free , could field at best 1 million men in 1940 , it was also the first time the Blitzkrieg tactics were used .



Germany eventually fielded 10.8 million men against the Soviet Union. But only 5 million crossed the border in 1941. France on May 10th, 1940, fielded over 6 million men, 2.2 million served against Germany during the invasion. "Blitzkrieg" was used in Poland before France, as well as in the Spanish Civil War before France. 

I have to point out also that one-to-one French armour was superior to their German counter-parts. The French Army was the second largest in the world, and the largest in western Europe. Their tank force was also the second largest, and air force was third largest. The world leader was the Soviet Union in armour, army and air force. France were second in army and armour, while Germany was second in air force. 

The deluded vision that France could not field more than a million men is laughable - if France had such a small military, I wonder why Churchill constantly thanked the stars that such a large French military stood in Germanys way. 

But Janus, learn the facts before spouting your mouth. Your arrogance and ignorance is pathetic. If you had simply corrected lanc on the French ace matter; I would be happy, and wouldn't have had to waste time correcting your grave errors concerning your OWN countries history. 

If I can at all be bothered, I may mention how France DESTROYED the Knights Templar or that French Knights were the greatest in Europe, but were bested by English peasents wielding Longbows at Agincourt.


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## plan_D (Jan 27, 2007)

And that last post was beyond pathetic. It makes me wonder, if the English were so poor when it came to military matters - why did they never get invaded after 1066? Before the little French man claims that William I was French, let us all be reminded that William I was a Norman - who are Vikings that landed in "Normandy" and settled. 

This poor and pathetic nation called England must have had some luck if it ruled the world for almost 500 years. And it's amazing that he, the ignorant baffoon, claims that England only fought natives (by the way, the Scots were considered a power in the Middle-Ages, so its no laughing matter when England managed to subdue them - the Romans couldn't!) since England has fought every nation in Europe - and won. 

One major point though, England has never won a war on its own. Funny that, I don't remember anyone helping when the Royal Navy sunk the combined Spanish and French Armada in the Channel in 1588 ! YOU JACKASS! 

And you're from Russia - CRIMEA oh how we love to mention the smashing defeat big 'ole might Russia felt in the Crimean war. How did it feel to have Sevestapol smashed to pieces by English and French guns!? 

And the Crusades - the dear third Crusade led by the English - everyone else in Europe backed out! 

Ever heard of the Black Prince, J ANUS!? Well Medieval France did 'cos he sacked most of it! Maybe the Crecy Campaign comes to mind?! The siege of Calais?! The Reims Campaign after which England ruled a third of France, and were paid FOUR TIMES the amount GDP of France?! Where were English allies there!? What about the Poiters campaign that crippled French army?!

Most of your excuse, french division, came from the fact that the Black Prince kept sacking your bloody country - and the French peasents were p*ssed off that the French government weren't doing anything to stop him!? Well, what could they?! Everytime you met Edward III in open battle he slaughtered the French like pigs! 

What about Henry V - Harfleur or Agincourt!? Treaty of Troyes - Henry V heir to French throne. 

Be realistic - and learn your history. England fought many-many-many great powers to become what it did. So don't delude yourself with visions of rifle armed men fighting natives with mango fruits and sharped orange peel!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 27, 2007)

Janus is a prick. He will come back and read all these posts about him and go and cry to his mommy, sulk in some vodka and realize he screwed up.

Janus, eat a bowl of dick.


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## Smokey (Jan 27, 2007)

Ages ago I read an article by Pierre Clostermann in which he relates how his squadron lost six out of eight tempests in thirty five seconds while attacking a Luftwaffe airfield late in the war. Ouch



> Extract from The Big Show bt Pierre Clostermann DFC
> 
> Leading a flight of 8 when attacking German airbase 1945.
> 
> ...



And we complain about flack - HEXUS.community discussion forums


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## ndicki (Jan 28, 2007)

I don't think Janus likes us.


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## ndicki (Jan 28, 2007)

No, I really don't think he likes us.


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## ndicki (Jan 28, 2007)

I suppose it's his right, though.


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## ndicki (Jan 28, 2007)

When you think about it...


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## ndicki (Jan 28, 2007)

I mean, we don't seem to be able to help it, really. I'm most terribly ashamed...



The Battle of Agincourt

If we are mark'd to die, we are enowMap
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires.
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.
No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England.
God's peace! I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more methinks would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is call'd the feast of Crispian.
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam'd,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian.'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispian's day.'
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words-
Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester-
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

-- Wm. Shakespeare, King Henry V


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## ndicki (Jan 28, 2007)

On the other hand, maybe not.


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## ndicki (Jan 28, 2007)

They can be glad that a few, a very few, did carry on the fight and thereby maintain the honour and credibility of France. It is a pity that most of their compatriots failed not live up to them.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 28, 2007)

Nice stuff up there. I like the old paintings.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 28, 2007)

I still have a problem understanding how a country that had been defeated twice in 2 Wars could have a large percentage of its population start fighting for the invaders....

Would that have happened in Britain or the USA, if things had turned out differently??? British Tommie's wearing the swastika in Piccadilly Circus??? American GI's goose stepping through Washington DC??

I think not...


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## plan_D (Jan 28, 2007)

I am more amazed how wrong he could be on the facts. Saying that; the French and Russian schooling must be full to the brim with propaganda. I bet in France; they won Agincourt!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 28, 2007)

lesofprimus said:


> I still have a problem understanding how a country that had been defeated twice in 2 Wars could have a large percentage of its population start fighting for the invaders....
> 
> Would that have happened in Britain or the USA, if things had turned out differently??? British Tommie's wearing the swastika in Piccadilly Circus??? American GI's goose stepping through Washington DC??
> 
> I think not...



Because they are yellow bellied cowards.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 28, 2007)

yo, surrender monkey



> By the way don't mention WWI , because your contribution next to France and USA is ridiculous , not to mention that this war was started Mainly because of you British scum politicians , Germans were far more motivated to beat you than the French , the French were closer that's all .



that's excrement of the highest order, smelling worse than that cheese you love so much- we were instrumental in winning WWI, let's look at some facts that they wont have told you in any French or Russian textbook-

Was it not France who started WWI by their determination to get Alsase-Lorraine back? by giving the Russians military loans which they used to arm against Germany? By their determination to keep control in Morocco? 

It was the Royal Navy blockading the North Sea and access to Germany's coast- not only was it the Royal Navy that kept the Germany Navy contained but it was the Royal Navy that starved Germany into submission, an often overlooked aspect of the war, Germany was short of food by 1916 because of the Royal Navy blocking any supplies heading for Germany- next up your defence against the Schliefen plan, you knew damn well what it was so what do you do, ignore it of course! France knew the strong attack would come in the north, so they sent most of their troops to the south... congratulations... then came the mutiny! ah yes "we've lost too many troops- we're not attacking anymore" thanks guys, as a result it was mostly the Commonwealth troops leading the attacks for the rest of the war, American troops being too few in number, next up, the war in the middle east, did you know there was a war out there too? well we absolutely stormed it, winning control of oil supplies with ease, your throw away comments are making me laugh.........

and come on mods, 8 out of 10... he called me ignorant


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 28, 2007)

It does not matter, his ignorant posts are worth the keeping him around for a bit longer, but he wont come back now.


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## v2 (Jan 29, 2007)

Collaboration beetwen France and Germany- interesting story:
Occupied France


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## ndicki (Jan 29, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> It does not matter, his ignorant posts are worth the keeping him around for a bit longer, but he wont come back now.



Pity, really. Lanc, I hope you're suitably ashamed of yourself! Talk about hospitality! He was just being amusing.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 29, 2007)

Question: Why does the French Navy have plexi-glass on the bottom of all their ships?

Answer: So they could see the rest of their navy!

I'd just thought I'd throw that in...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 29, 2007)

Well since FBJ started the French Jokes I will throw a few in:

"A lot of folks are still demanding more evidence before they actually consider Iraq a threat. For example, France wants more evidence. And you know I'm thinking, the last time France wanted more evidence they rolled right through Paris with the German flag." —David Letterman

"I don't know why people are surprised that France won't help us get Saddam out of Iraq. After all, France wouldn't help us get the Germans out of France." —Jay Leno

"Did you see the new bomb the government came up with? It weights 21,000 pounds. The Air Force tested this bomb in Florida and the bomb blast was so strong at Disneyworld 25 French tourists surrendered." —Jay Leno

"Army personnel in Kuwait unloaded a dozen faulty tanks that only go in reverse. Tanks that only go in reverse — they've been repackaged and sold to France." —Craig Kilborn

"You know why the French don't want to bomb Saddam Hussein? Because he hates America, he loves mistresses and wears a beret. He is French, people." —Conan O'Brien

"President Bush and National Security Guard Tom Ridge launched the new Department of Homeland Security, just 24 hours after taking us down to threat level French — I'm sorry, I mean threat level yellow." —Craig Kilborn

"American tourists in Paris are reported to being yelled at, spit upon, and attacked by the French. Thank God things are getting back to normal." —Jay Leno

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." 
--- General George S. Patton

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."
--Norman Schwartzkopf

"As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure" 
---Jacques Chirac, President of France
"As far as France is concerned, you're right."
---Rush Limbaugh

*Next time there's a war in Europe, the loser has to keep France.
--David Letterman*

There was a Frenchman, an Englishman and Claudia Schiffer sitting together in a carriage in a train going through Provence. Suddenly the train went through a tunnel and as it was an old style train, there were no lights in the carriages and it went completely dark. Then there was a kissing noise and the sound of a really loud slap. When the train came out of the tunnel, Claudia Schiffer and the Englishman were sitting as if nothing had happened and the Frenchman had his hand against his face as if he had been slapped there. The Frenchman was thinking: 'The English fella must have kissed Claudia Schiffer and she missed him and slapped me instead.' Claudia Schiffer was thinking: 'The French fella must have tried to kiss me and actually kissed the Englishman and got slapped for it.' And the Englishman was thinking: 'This is great. The next time the train goes through a tunnel I'll make another kissing noise and slap that French bastard again.

The only navel victory that the French had in it's long history is the blowing-up of the Rainbow Warrior in New Zealand.


Q. What's the difference between Frenchmen and toast?
A. You can make soldiers out of toast.

Q. Why are the French so afraid of war?
A. You would be too if you never won one in your history.

Why does the French Flag have Velcro? 
So the blue and red sections are easily removed during a time of war.

What is a citizen of Paris called?
A Parasite

*A cursory review of French military history reveals the following: 

1 - Gallic Wars - Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2,000 
years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian. 

2 - Hundred Years War - Mostly lost, saved at last by a female schizophrenic 
who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare: "French armies 
are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman." 

3 - Italian Wars - Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever 
lose two wars when fighting Italians. 

4 - Wars of Religion - France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots. 

5 - Thirty Years War - France is technically not a participant but still 
manages to get invaded. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other 
participants started ignoring her. 

6 - War of Devolution - Tied. Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as 
chapeaux. 

7 - The Dutch War - Tied. Dutch farmers and tulip growers are tougher 
than they look. 

8 - War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War - 
Lost, but claimed as a tie. Three ties in a row induces deluded Francophiles 
the world over to label the period as the height of French military power. 

9 - War of the Spanish Succession - Lost. The War also gave the French 
their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved every since. 

10 - American Revolution - In a move that will become quite familiar to 
future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw 
far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to 
the Second Rule of French Warfare; " France only wins when America does most 
of the fighting." 

11 - French Revolution - Won, primarily due the fact that the opponent was 
also French. 

12 - The Napoleonic Wars - Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First 
Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for the 
Russian winter, Prussian grenadiers or a British footwear designer. 

13 - The Franco-Prussian War - Lost. For the first, but certainly not the 
last time, Germany plays the role of drunk frat boy to France 's ugly girl 
home alone on a Saturday night. 

14 - World War I - Invaded, humiliated and on the way to losing, France is 
saved by the United States. Winds up a tie for les francaise. Thousands of 
French women find out what it's like to not only sleep with a winner, but 
one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, the American fascination with 
personal hygiene (a fascination totally foreign to French women) incites 
widespread use of condoms by American soldiers, thus precluding any 
improvement in the French bloodline. 

15 - World War II - A decisive defeat even by French standards. Hitler and 
the German Youth spend Christmas time sleeping soundly through the winter, 
then arouse themselves to conquer France in six weeks. Hitler dances in 
front of the Eiffel Tower, while the French command staff retreats to 
Algeria to institute a crash language program to teach French privates how 
to say "I surrender" in German and French generals to say "We surrender" in 
German. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as 
they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song and some small portion of the 
German work ethic. De Gaulle of it all... 

16 - First Vietnamese war (in Vietnamese circles, known as "the scrimmage", 
or "the exhibition game" where the varsity squad is kept on the sideline to 
see how the second string will play) - Lost. French soldiers, fresh off 
their four year occupation by the Germans, catch a terminal case of Dien 
Bien Flu. 

17 - Algerian rebellion - Lost. First time an Arab army has beaten a 
Western army since the Crusades, and produces the first rule of modern 
Islamic warfare: "We can always beat the French." A nice phrase, but it 
lacks something in originality, since it is also the first rule of warfare 
for the Italians, Russians, Prussians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, 
Vietnamese, Native Americans and capitalists. 

18 - War on Terrorism - Lost. Incensed at not being included in the 
original "Axis of Evil," France refuses to participate. When it becomes 
clear that this is a "no-kidding war," Jacques Chirac looks at his cards and 
immediately surrenders to that old warhorse, Gerhard Schroeder. For good 
measure, he also surrenders to five million illegal immigrants from Algeria. 

The moral of the story is - give thanks to God on high that the French are 
not helping us!

**You forgot the French intervention in Mexico 1862-1867 (why the Mexicans celebrate Cinco de Mayo - outnumbered and under equipped Mexicans beat the pants off the French). 

It was a total debacle for them and worth inclusion in 
your list of lost wars.*

Why Surgeons Love Operating on Frenchmen 

Five surgeons are discussing who makes the best patients to operate on. 

The first surgeon says, "I like to see accountants on my operating table, because when you open them up, everything inside is numbered," 

The second responds, "Yeah, but you should try electricians. 
Everything inside them is color-coded," 

The third surgeon says, "No, I really think librarians are the best; everything inside them is in alphabetical order." 

The fourth surgeon chimes in: "You know, I like construction workers. 
They always understand when you have a few parts left over at the end and when the job takes longer than you said it would." 

But the fifth surgeon, Dr. Morris Fishbein, shuts them all up when he observes: "The French are the easiest to operate on. There's no guts, no heart, no balls and no spine. Plus the head and ass are interchangeable." 

Why are French streets tree lined? 
So the Germans can march in the shade.

How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?
No one knows. It's never been tried.

*FOR SALE: French rifles . . . never fired, only dropped once.
*


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 29, 2007)

hehehehehe........


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## Gnomey (Jan 29, 2007)




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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 29, 2007)

Yeah I thought they were quite funny.


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## ndicki (Jan 30, 2007)

"Company! Company will surrender! Haaaands......UP!"


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## RATHED (Jan 30, 2007)

Hi gents. Just adding somenthing to the discussion. Clostermann speaks good portuguese, having been born in Brazil, and I had the oportunity to see an interview with him some time. Besides talking about his victories, he spoke about beeing downed twice: One time early in the war, by a a me-109 when flying a Spit over the Channel. And latter in the very final days of the war, when his Tempest was damaged by a FW-190D. On this ocassion the german pilot had the opportunity to totally destroy his low flying and smoking plane, probably killing Clostermann, but was corteus enough to just fly in formation with him unti he crash landed on a field. The german them rocked this wings and went home. 

Did not had time to read everything, sorry if this information was posted before.
Regards


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## Erich (Jan 30, 2007)

actually according to mr myth maker Pierre, the D-9 from JG 301 shot down 3 Tempests, and with that mr C.'s Tempest was toast. Reality check !! the JG 301 pilot from 6./JG 301 was given credit for only 1 Tempest ......... Herr Rudi Wurff on 21 April 45


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## bigZ (Jan 30, 2007)

Erich said:


> what Typhoon group/squadron ?
> 
> try RAF Commands 1939 - 1945 and post a question there .......




Belated thanks Erich. Will dig out the squadron info.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 30, 2007)

I dont hold much water with Clostermanns memory or facts...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 31, 2007)

our cheese eating Russian friend's gone


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## lesofprimus (Jan 31, 2007)

*sniffles*


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## CharlesBronson (Jan 31, 2007)

> our cheese eating Russian friend's gone



I wonder why  ....you are bad guys.  


Pierre Closterman pictured with two argentine pilots, 1986.


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## Gnomey (Feb 1, 2007)

The truth hurts sometimes...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 3, 2007)

yes- it must be painful to realise you gave up the comparitive joy of Russia to live in France


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 3, 2007)

Id rather go to Russia.


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## Brain32 (Feb 3, 2007)

Too bad a thread about Clostermann developed like this, trashing France or any other contry is a bad idea, it does not matter if there is some truth in those jokes or not - IT'S SIMPLY BAD TASTE and childish behaviour 

As for French Aces, not only were there free French units in RAF, defending, which country was it hmmm - Great Britain maybe? But there was also a free French unit called Normandie-Nieman that fought with Russians and kicked ass big time in not so fancy planes.
As for Clostermann he was one of the best pilots in RAF, and the Best Hawker Tempest(not Typhoon as some don't seem to know the difference ) pilot


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## lesofprimus (Feb 3, 2007)

This site is all about bad taste, so thank u for the compliment....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 3, 2007)

Brain32 said:


> Too bad a thread about Clostermann developed like this, trashing France or any other contry is a bad idea, it does not matter if there is some truth in those jokes or not - IT'S SIMPLY BAD TASTE and childish behaviour



Thankyou for sharing that with us. Now I can sleep better at night. What a relief!


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## Brain32 (Feb 3, 2007)

> This site is all about bad taste...


I would disagree but then again I saw some people here think Spitfire is a beautiful plane soo 


> Thankyou for sharing that with us. Now I can sleep better at night. What a relief!


I'm always happy when I can help


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## lesofprimus (Feb 3, 2007)

And if I could offer up one more tidbit of information, if u dont like how things are around here, ie Piss on the French/Surrender Skills by the French crap, u may want to look for another message board to fill ur needs/wants/desires, as the last fu*kturd meatball who bit*hed about our ways here is no longer around...

Get the hint???

If not, maybe this will help get the point across that opinions about the way things are run here are not needed required or desired....


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## Brain32 (Feb 3, 2007)

Well this will probably get me banned since you are the all mighty moderator, but I'm not French so:
Yeah boy, go F-U-C-K yourself too


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## lesofprimus (Feb 3, 2007)

Hmmmm, does that deserve a banning??? Nah, not just yet...

Figured u werent French, but just another pus*y who thinks that hating the French is as evil as Jeffrey Dahmer....

Thing is, I'll bet u ur virginity that there are more people on this globe that hate America/Americans than there are here pissing on the French...


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## Brain32 (Feb 3, 2007)

> Figured u werent French, but just another pus*y who thinks that hating the French is as evil as Jeffrey Dahmer....


Don't know who J.Dahmer is, but I can't see how anybody can hate French, based on what one can read here, they never hurt anybody anyway...


> Thing is, I'll bet u ur virginity that there are more people on this globe that hate America/Americans than there are here pissing on the French...



Is that what bothers you? Ah well I'm not suprised as this is probably true...

And just for the record I really don't give a f*ck if you ban me or not, but if you or anybody else here thinks I'll put up with the BS directed at me and/or my country just to stay on this forum - you are very wrong.
Make of this what you want...


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## lesofprimus (Feb 3, 2007)

brainfart said:


> I can't see how anybody can hate French, based on what one can read here, they never hurt anybody anyway...


Exactamundo, they never hurt anybody... Its kinda hard to inflict damage on an invading army when u've already dropped ur weapons and are running in the opposite direction...


brainiac said:


> but if you or anybody else here thinks I'll put up with the BS directed at me and/or my country just to stay on this forum - you are very wrong.


Ur country??? I see the Croatian flag a-flying under ur name... 

Jeffrey Dahmer was a cannibal serial killer here in the US who drilled holes in his victims skulls to try and make sex slaves out of them... About as evil as it gets...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 3, 2007)

> free French units in RAF, defending, which country was it hmmm - Great Britain maybe?



They were fighting in the RAF, but they were fighting for France still, hence they fought under the name Free French- and after most of them went back to Vichy France there were few of them left..........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 3, 2007)

Oh boy, this game never gets old. I just love how people get all but hurt in forums like this when no one is making direct fun out them. We make fun of the French, Germans, Americans, Russian, Aussies and British all the same.

Get over it!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 4, 2007)

was the aimed at me or the other guy?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 4, 2007)

The other guy...


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## kiwimac (Feb 13, 2007)

The language used by moderators on this thread is, IMO, unacceptable. We cannot expect the noobs or other members to debate in a reasonable way if we do not.

<taken to Admin forum> They are like any other country they have good folk and bad folk.

kiwimac


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## lesofprimus (Feb 13, 2007)

How about no... Ur opinion means little to me concerning my or any other members opinion concerning the French... If I need a lesson from anyone concerning my behavior, I'll let u know....

And for the record, if u have any other further chickenshit opinions concerning my behavior here, u either briing it up in the Moderators section or keep ur fu*kin opinions to urself....


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## evangilder (Feb 14, 2007)

I think it's time to lock this thread, it is getting way out of hand.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 14, 2007)

Agreed...

Having said that if a moderator has a problem with another moderator they need to bring it up in the moderator section...


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