# Muslims in Space: You Can't Hear Them Scream



## Matt308 (May 1, 2007)

Malaysia Creates Religious Guidelines for Muslim Astronauts

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia — Muslim-majority Malaysia's first astronaut will get guidelines allowing flexibility in praying in zero gravity and eating space meals under Islamic rules, the country space chief said Monday.

The government-prepared advice is for a Malaysian joining a Russian scientific mission on the International Space Station in October, Malaysia's National Space Agency chief Mazlan Othman told The Associated Press.

Officials have previously said an Islamic code of conduct in space is necessary because few Muslims have embarked on such expeditions, and there have been no standardized guidelines for them.

Malaysia's two finalists for the voyage, Sheikh Muszaphar Shukor and Faiz Khaleed, are now training in Moscow. They were selected from more than 10,000 candidates.

Malaysia held a forum for Islamic scholars in April 2006 to discuss problems Muslim space travelers might face, such as pinpointing the Saudi holy city of Mecca, which Muslims are expected face when they pray five times a day.

The guideline booklet, published this month, says the direction should be determined "according to the capability" of the astronaut.

Those in space during the holy fasting month of Ramadan — when Muslims are required to go without food or water from sunrise to sunset — can choose to fast then or to make up for it when they return, the booklet says.

The first Malaysian astronaut's stint will likely overlap with Ramadan, which starts in mid-September this year.

If Muslim astronauts doubt whether a meal is halal, or prepared according to Islamic rules, they "should consume it only to the extent of restraining hunger," the guidelines say.

The astronaut must be dressed decently whenever in public view, which involves covering at least the portion of the body between the navel and the knees for men. Both of the finalists for Malaysia's first astronaut are males.

Maintaining Islamic beliefs "is mandatory for Muslims in every situation, time and place," Mustafa Abdul Rahman, who heads Malaysia's state-run Department of Islamic Development, said in the guidelines.

"Circumstances on the ISS which are different from circumstances on Earth are not an obstacle for an astronaut to fulfill a Muslim's obligations," he said.

Other Muslims who have gone to space include Saudi Arabia's Prince Sultan bin Salman, who went aboard the U.S. shuttle Discovery in 1985, and Anousheh Ansari, an Iranian-American telecommunications entrepreneur who went to the ISS in September 2006.


----------



## Erich (May 1, 2007)

well hear ya go astro lunes suck on your striped bass and listen to this you space=cadets


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUyGuWJh7Bs_


----------



## DOUGRD (May 1, 2007)

I wonder if the Ragheads will smell as much in the ISS as they do here?


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 2, 2007)

Erich said:


> well hear ya go astro lunes suck on your striped bass and listen to this you space=cadets
> 
> 
> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUyGuWJh7Bs_




Hell yeah! I will be hearing that live in less than 4 weeks.

Okay sorry I got off topic, lets get back on topic.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 2, 2007)

DOUGRD said:


> I wonder if the Ragheads will smell as much in the ISS as they do here?



While your post does not offend me (hell I used the term as well especially when I was in the middle east), bit lets try and refrain from using the term Ragheads. We dont like people calling other derogatory names or whatever based off there herritage or home so lets not do it either to the Arabs.

Just call them Arabs.


----------



## Matt308 (May 2, 2007)

That's my fault Adler. I set the tone by stereotyping all Muslims. And I shouldn't have. But dang if I don't get a bit upset that they don't police themselves and their crazies like the rest of the world.

Wonder if they will have to interrupt ISS activities to allow for prayers or if EVAs will have to be bootless? Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 2, 2007)

I hear you Matt...


----------



## Erich (May 2, 2007)

the world is spending so much time on their kind it's nauseating............sorry gents but I find this whole space thing a crack up.

let's get on with life shall we


----------



## amrit (May 2, 2007)

Erich said:


> the world is spending so much time on their kind it's nauseating............



I'm not sure you mean by "their kind". Whilst not being a Muslim myself, I am of a different ethnicity and religion from most of the other members. It has been interesting reading about peoples' views on Islam, especially in light of the media focus on the activities of some of them. On the whole, I think people have been asking genuine questions. For example, the above question on the stipulations on Muslims going into space seems valid - I've just been reading on the Koran's stipulations on fasting during Ramadhan and there are passgaes that state that a Muslim who is travelling may defer fasting to a later date.

However, I do find it troublesome that some members' only comments on Islam seem to be in the negative. Maybe as an ethnic minority, I am being overly sensitive but I have often faced situations where the majority have been lumped in with the minority. My personal experience of this is the death of family members who were innocently killed after the assassination of the Indian PM Indira Gandhi by her Sikh bodyguard.

The fact that the majority of Sikhs had nothing to do with this act, and did not follow the politics of this fringe group didn't stop the aggressive reactions of the mobs of attacked them.

Other everyday examples of racism based purely on the way I look, or what religion I may follow, or even mistaking me for another group altogether (which is no excuse) does make life rather difficult.

So, whilst I applaud the forum for discussing current politics, I would just ask one thing - you can't lump everyone together.

Cheers
A

p.s. I'm not accussing anyone of racism - so I hope no-one takes offence at my little contribution.


----------



## Matt308 (May 2, 2007)

Your right, amrit. And, as I noted above, I am guilty of stereotyping muslims. However, I also believe that being politically correct and not discussing the origins of these stereotypes hides some truths that are important to understanding these differences and affecting change.

I have very succinct problem with Muslims and their religion. Their religion appears to not just be "less than mainstream". Rather, their religion appears to be more than mildly oppressive as a minimum and perhaps extremely violent in basis at the other end of the spectrum. Irrespective, I am supremely dis-gusted that the supposed "Muslim moderates" do not better police their fringe fanatics that have hijacked their "peaceful" religion. Sure there are examples, but for the most part it appears that voicing intolerance with Western culture and insipid activities to change the rest of the world are more important than exhibiting intolerance of these violent offshoots of their own religion.

Actions speak louder than words and, with the exception of some trivial lipservice, I don't see the Muslim community up in arms over either of these actions.

Thus, my stereotyping will continue.


----------



## Njaco (May 2, 2007)

My feelings exactly, Matt. I have no bias for the Muslim religion but when it fosters death across the earth without restraints, I'll always speak out against it.

And don't think that its not just Arab muslims. American Muslims headed by Farakhan are just as bad with their racist garbage.


----------



## amrit (May 2, 2007)

I can understand what you are saying Matt, but I think history shows that the majority in *any* do not or cannot "police" the fringe elements within them, without help and understanding. This had previously been the case in Christianity (e.g. the IRA/UVF), Sikhism (the Khalsa movement was an ultra-religious fringe group, who in many ways make current Islamic extremists look like pussies - the only reason that they didn't receive the same international coverage is because of the size of the Sikh population and the localised activities), Judaism (the West Bank settlers were perceived as an extreme by most of my Jewish friends - however, for a long time they were supported by a state apparatus - only when opinions started changing within Israel itself did some action start taking place)......and so on.

Neither am I saying that shy away from discussing these issues due to a "fear" or whatever term one wants to use, of PCism.

But the vast majority of Muslims live in poor, mainly ill-educated communities, whose many concern is the day-to-day survival of themselves and their families. Again, I would draw a parallel with Northern Ireland. Whilst the majority of Catholics did not actively support the IRA and their armed activities, a lot did support their basic principle of stopping discrimination against the Catholics. However, the media activelly interpreted this as overtly supporting and colluding with them. Even when Catholics actively demonstrated against IRA activities, the hype never stopped.

It was only after the governments of both Ireland and Britain started negotiating, and supporting this "silent" majority, that the IRA saw that they didn't have the support they thought or needed to continue.

How would this work within Islamic countries? I honestly don't know. But I think a basically starting principle should be acknowledging that the majority aren't at fault, and building up their support AGAINST the fringe minority. Look at Afghanistan - for the continuing problems, the fall of the Taliban has had a profound affect on their society. The Taliban may still be a military threat - but socially, the Afghans are trying to sort out their problems in _their own_ way, as befits their societal needs. What did it take? Help and understanding.

Sorry matt, this has turned into an essay


----------



## Matt308 (May 2, 2007)

Yep.

Sorry amrit, our posts collided. I was responding to Njaco.

And you post was not an essay. A well thought out post actually.


----------



## Erich (May 2, 2007)

do not assume anything of what I said as being racist. Maybe I should of put Muslim maybe Islam. Ever since 9/11 we as a nation in fact the world have been so concerned about everything the Mulsims do, whether it be movements in the world, what they eat, what they believe, where they live, when they have sex and now space travel.

let's give it a break shall we ? I hope now my point is clear. I did not come onto these forums some years ago to talk about a nation of people that has an adjenda whether anyone sees that as being truthful or not, I came on this forums to talk about a/c WW 2 and otherwise ............... I think we have all strayed


----------



## Matt308 (May 2, 2007)

I recognize its a sore point, Erich. But these discussions on issue unrelated to WWII aircraft are healthy too.

I'm just converting the world one person at a time.


----------



## amrit (May 2, 2007)

Erich said:


> do not assume anything of what I said as being racist.



As I said in my first post, I don't believe that anyone was being racist, including you Erch  .



> let's give it a break shall we ? I hope now my point is clear. I did not come onto these forums some years ago to talk about a nation of people that has an adjenda whether anyone sees that as being truthful or not, I came on this forums to talk about a/c WW 2 and otherwise ............... I think we have all strayed



I'm the same - I joined because I liked the fact that the members here seemed "hardcore" and knowledgeable about aircraft. Actually what prompted my comments here was the (maybe spurious) link with the minor disagreement about the contributions of different countries to the air war - the whole "lumping everyone together" thing.

Right, I'm off to read my new book - the history of 600 Squadron


----------



## Matt308 (May 2, 2007)

Cheers, amrit.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 2, 2007)

amrit said:


> However, I do find it troublesome that some members' only comments on Islam seem to be in the negative.



You are correct, they should not be lumped into one and I try not to. I do however base my negative comments of them by living among them for a period of time.


----------



## DOUGRD (May 7, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> You are correct, they should not be lumped into one and I try not to. I do however base my negative comments of them by living among them for a period of time.


 Well it seems that I triggered quite an interesting discussion here when I used the term "Ragheads". If I may ,I would like to supplement my initial comment with the following. First of all, my reading comprehension was definitely flawed because the original article wasn't about Arabs at all but Malaysian muslims, quite a geographical difference. 
DerAdler: you are right, they shouldn't be lumped into one group and I commend you for trying not to. But, as you said, you base you negativism on your experience. Experience is the best, though sometimes cruelest, teacher. Matt308: You need not take any blame for my comments. Your comment did not trigger my thought processes. I don't think there is any blame to be had anyway. DerAdler asked me not to use the term Raghead. I think that's fair enough. No big deal. Amrit: You made the comment" ...However, I do find it troublesome that some members only comments on Islam seem to be in the negative." You are absolutely right. Very much so especially here in the U.S. and for some pretty ugly reasons too. No, all muslims did not participate in 911 but one hell of a lot of them were dancing in the streets according to international TV including your own BBC (IF I remember correctly- If not then please pardon me) When the four US contractor security members were killed and their burned bodies were hung from that bridge I'm quite sure the folks standing around cheering were not all "fringe group" members. Nor were all the participants in Samolia "fringe group" members when they dragged the body of one of the aircrew from the downed helo (Blackhawk Down)through the streets. I'm sorry Amrit, as noble and honorable as it would be I will not be offering the olive branch to any muslims any time in the near future. Not to a bunch of hypocrites who would like us to be open minded to their beliefs and make concessions on their behalf in our counties but act like a pack of dogs when the opportunity for them to demonstrate religious tolerance is thrown back in our faces. One example I can think of is the incident where a man was almost beaten to death at a soccer match for wearing a shirt which had a cross on it which just coincidently happen to be the flag of his country. And this was in Europe correct? Not Syria or Iran? I apologize if I sound like some left wing militia member, I'm really not, matter of fact I don't even own a gun eventhough I did qualify as "Marksman" on the M-16 when I was in the Navy. I'm also a believer in the quote "I may not agree with what you are saying but I will fight to the death for your right to say it". Now I've said my piece and I bid you all a Good Night.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 7, 2007)

DOUGRD its allright, no one is judging you or anything, certainly not me. I happen to agree with you. Just trying to do my j ob as a moderator and keep the peace among posters, before JOE BlOW IDIOT POSTER comes in here with his one and only post to start a bitch war among others.

The soccer incident you are talking about actually took place in Turkey when the Swiss team played Turkey there in the Euro qualifiers. Turkey can no longer play games for a certain amount of time in Turkey so they play there games now here in Germany with no fans in the stadiums. I personally would have disqualified Turkey from playing in the Euro Cup.


----------



## Matt308 (May 7, 2007)

I thought that the Turkey/soccer thing was a fake. I should have known better.

Here in the states, they are building places of worship and feet washing stations for those of the muslim faith. BS. If they did that for Jews, Christians, or Catholics the ACLU would be in an uproar and the atheists would be crawling out of the woodwork. We better nip this in the bud in a hurry or we are going to end up like France.


----------



## DOUGRD (May 7, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> DOUGRD its allright, no one is judging you or anything, certainly not me. I happen to agree with you. Just trying to do my j ob as a moderator and keep the peace among posters, before JOE BlOW IDIOT POSTER comes in here with his one and only post to start a bitch war among others.
> 
> The soccer incident you are talking about actually took place in Turkey when the Swiss team played Turkey there in the Euro qualifiers. Turkey can no longer play games for a certain amount of time in Turkey so they play there games now here in Germany with no fans in the stadiums. I personally would have disqualified Turkey from playing in the Euro Cup.



DerAdler: As I said in my "essay", you asked me not to use the term "Raghead" and I think that was a fair request. No hard feelings on this side. And thanks for the clarification on the soccer incident. It sounds like turkey is the official European pariah for quite a while.


----------



## DOUGRD (May 7, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> I thought that the Turkey/soccer thing was a fake. I should have known better.
> 
> Here in the states, they are building places of worship and feet washing stations for those of the muslim faith. BS. If they did that for Jews, Christians, or Catholics the ACLU would be in an uproar and the atheists would be crawling out of the woodwork. We better nip this in the bud in a hurry or we are going to end up like France.



Hey Matt 308 do you get the impression (This is actually a question for everyone) that we as a country are bending over backwards to appease every Muslim who claims he was offended by something here in the USA? It's like the new national pasttime for the "politically correct" and other scum sucking bottom feeders. I have absolutely no problem with the Muslims building Mosques. After all this country was founded on the idea of religious freedom ,among others, and we'd be hypocrites just like them if we objected to it. (I may not agree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it! ...sort of idea). But the feet washing thing...aaahhh I don't dig that one. Unless I can use it too! Wouldn't that tick 'em off severely! Seriously though, I've heard of a lot of concessions being made because of Muslim whining. Just down the road at the Minneapolis airport the Muslim cab drivers (Samolis) started to refuse to take anyone in "their" cabs who had been drinking or had alcohol in their possession. So now there is a big Flail-Ex going on over that but I'm glad to see the cabbies are losing that round. But I've also heard of places of business having to provide them with an appropriate prayer room ( with the direction of Mecca accurately displayed). I quess I'm just getting tired of the liberals running around with their tails between their legs and trying to drag the rest of us along with them. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I believe any minority coming into the country should make an honest effort to assimilate into the main stream. Not to discard their traditions or heritage completely but to realize they are part of a whole that began long before they got here and that they have to blend in with us and not the other way around. Just like the Italians, Irish , Germans, Sweds, Russians, Polish, Japanese, Indians, etc...


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 8, 2007)

I agree with that.


----------



## Matt308 (May 8, 2007)

DOUGRD said:


> Hey Matt 308 do you get the impression (This is actually a question for everyone) that we as a country are bending over backwards to appease every Muslim who claims he was offended by something here in the USA?



Yep. And I'm equally dis gusted. I think we need to put a moratorium on immigration for a generation or so. However, I think that there is some hidden social engineering at work and I am increasingly of the belief that it is related to a shortsighted attempt to fix Social Security and the need for increasing the percentage of workers vs. those who draw.

Who knows...


----------



## DOUGRD (May 8, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> Yep. And I'm equally dis gusted. I think we need to put a moratorium on immigration for a generation or so. However, I think that there is some hidden social engineering at work and I am increasingly of the belief that it is related to a shortsighted attempt to fix Social Security and the need for increasing the percentage of workers vs. those who draw.
> 
> Who knows...



OK Matt now you've started it. How's this for a theory? Let's do away with the middle class citizens. We'll have the aristocracy and the peasants. The aristocracy doesn't need Social Security and to give it to the peasants would be mere "chump change" because their entitlements would be very small based on their earnings. Social Security problem fades away. Consider these items of note, Major labor unions have lost all their bargaining power and the unions who could create the biggest inconvenience, the airlines and railroad unions can't wildcat strike and have to wait at least thirty days to call a strike IF the Arbitrator says they can and that can be squashed by the president and they can be ordered back to work. And it seems the Arbitrators always rule in the Companies favor on important issues.All because of the terms of the Railway Labor Act. That Presidential recall happened to the United Airlines pilots a few years ago. I think the truck drivers union in France has more bargaining power than any U.S. labor union. Another item of note...college tuition keeps climbing 12%-15% a year. Soon only the rich will be able to afford to send their kids to college. No college degree and you're doomed to a "Blue Collar" career. Blue collar, Oh sorry, but we 've shipped your job overseas. By the way that Home Loan we gave you a few years ago when we slackened up on the qualifications and let a whole bunch of you qualify when your credit really didn't merit it? Well the ARM mortgages are peaking this year and the forclosure rate in really climbing because the cost of living has gone up but your wages haven't kept pace. Sorry, I guess you'll have to move into an apartment again. But that's fine because the more serfs we can contain in one place the easier it will be to keep you under control. Medical coverage? Oh sorry but you don't earn squat so you don't qualify for quality healthcare with all the expensive tests and life saving procedures like the rich folks do. So you think you can manage do you, well quess what.. the Insurance industry didn't make enough BILLIONS last year because of Hurricane Katrina so we have to jack up your homeowners and auto insurance rates to make up the difference for those poor tycoons. OK I'll quit this jabbering but don't you just wonder sometimes? Vietnam, Gulf War I II all the poor folk get to go while the riches like Clinton and Bush and Chaney got to stay home. Hmmm?? Yes sir, we can thin out the Middle and Lower Income population. Hmmmmm? ( No, I'm not a conspiracy nut or anything like that< I just connect some dots sometimes and wonder.) Well Good Night folks, my crib is calling me


----------



## DOUGRD (May 8, 2007)

My God! Can I go on and on can't I? I didn't really see how long that last post was until I hit the submit button. AMRIT: You thought you had an essay!!!!!!!


----------



## Clave (May 9, 2007)

If there was no religion then a lot of these issues would just vanish.

Just think how much _better_ life would be without rules...

True freedom is in the mind, and I have achieved this by casting off the chains of 'belief' in favour of 'unbelief'... NOBODY tells me how to think, what to eat, how to dress, who to marry, or anything else.

I have probably said this before, but you can change who you are by *thinking* - It's simple...


----------



## Njaco (May 9, 2007)

A comedian I heard one time said of all the books that should be banned from libraries because of their destructive influence, they should be the Bible and the Koran. He went on about all the wars and conflicts throughout history caused by them and ended with the Son of Sam killer who listened and talked to his dog and everyone knew he was dyslesic. (horrible spelling).

Some truth to it. But can anyone show me where a Christian goes to another country and demand concessions for Christian belief? To the point of violence?


----------



## DOUGRD (May 9, 2007)

Clave said:


> If there was no religion then a lot of these issues would just vanish.
> 
> Just think how much _better_ life would be without rules...
> I have probably said this before, but you can change who you are by *thinking* - It's simple...



If there was no religion then a lot of these issues would just vanish?? No they wouldn't, they would just have a different name. Life without rules? So you're saying everyboby can just do whatever they feel like doing, whenever they feel like doing it or if they don't feel like it they don't have to do squat? You have your terminology slightly askew, it's not called "LIFE" it's called "CHAOS"


----------



## DOUGRD (May 9, 2007)

Njaco said:


> the Son of Sam killer who listened and talked to his dog and everyone knew he was dyslesic. (horrible spelling).
> 
> Some truth to it. But can anyone show me where a Christian goes to another country and demand concessions for Christian belief? To the point of violence?



Hey Njaco, you almost had it right! It's "Dyslexic" but it means to have a learning disability marked by difficulty in reading, writing, and spellgni.  I think what you meant was"SCHIZOPHRENIA" A psychotic mental illness that is characterized by a distorted view of the real world...and by abnormal ways of thinking, feeling, perceiving and behaving. Let me tell you about Schizophrenia, my youngest (HA-HA He's 31 years old now) stepson has it and some of the things he thinks about are just unbelieveable.  This is him when he's off his Meds  This is him when he's doped up. There is no in between. You're right by the way...Son of Sam was a Schizophrenic


----------



## Matt308 (May 9, 2007)

DOUGRD said:


> OK Matt now you've started it. How's this for a theory? Let's do away with the middle class citizens. We'll have the aristocracy and the peasants. The aristocracy doesn't need Social Security and to give it to the peasants would be mere "chump change" because their entitlements would be very small based on their earnings. Social Security problem fades away. Consider these items of note, Major labor unions have lost all their bargaining power and the unions who could create the biggest inconvenience, the airlines and railroad unions can't wildcat strike and have to wait at least thirty days to call a strike IF the Arbitrator says they can and that can be squashed by the president and they can be ordered back to work. And it seems the Arbitrators always rule in the Companies favor on important issues.All because of the terms of the Railway Labor Act. That Presidential recall happened to the United Airlines pilots a few years ago. I think the truck drivers union in France has more bargaining power than any U.S. labor union. Another item of note...college tuition keeps climbing 12%-15% a year. Soon only the rich will be able to afford to send their kids to college. No college degree and you're doomed to a "Blue Collar" career. Blue collar, Oh sorry, but we 've shipped your job overseas. By the way that Home Loan we gave you a few years ago when we slackened up on the qualifications and let a whole bunch of you qualify when your credit really didn't merit it? Well the ARM mortgages are peaking this year and the forclosure rate in really climbing because the cost of living has gone up but your wages haven't kept pace. Sorry, I guess you'll have to move into an apartment again. But that's fine because the more serfs we can contain in one place the easier it will be to keep you under control. Medical coverage? Oh sorry but you don't earn squat so you don't qualify for quality healthcare with all the expensive tests and life saving procedures like the rich folks do. So you think you can manage do you, well quess what.. the Insurance industry didn't make enough BILLIONS last year because of Hurricane Katrina so we have to jack up your homeowners and auto insurance rates to make up the difference for those poor tycoons. OK I'll quit this jabbering but don't you just wonder sometimes? Vietnam, Gulf War I II all the poor folk get to go while the riches like Clinton and Bush and Chaney got to stay home. Hmmm?? Yes sir, we can thin out the Middle and Lower Income population. Hmmmmm? ( No, I'm not a conspiracy nut or anything like that< I just connect some dots sometimes and wonder.) Well Good Night folks, my crib is calling me




Ugh...

What is rich. $75k. $100k. $150k. I find your post whiney and pathetic. "What is the world going to do for me?". Please.

How about not having kids if you can't afford them. How about having your wife stay home if you do have kids. Sacrifices my man. Cellphone? Dump it. Two cars? Dump one. Cable TV or Sat? You have your priorities backwards. Like to eat out, go on vacations or own a newer vehicle. You have your friggin priorities backwards may man.

College for everyone? BS. Those with four year degree potential in a meaningful major are just like the bell curve. Those at the top are going to be most productive. So... pour money down a rathole for those who will never contribute? Can you say Special Ed?

You want a degree in Philosphy or English Literature? I'll meet you as a busker on the streets, my friend and I'll toss you a quarter. College tuition up 15% per year? BS. It is more like 6-7%. Match that with inflation and counter with every numbnut's desire to hold a diploma and the rise is not too extraordinary. How do I know, I've sacrificed and participate in a 529. Look it up.

So take your liberal doctrine from Move On dot org and start saving your money. Life is going to be tough for you "serfs". The bourgeoisie are apparently taking your life energy away and you are going to have to work smarter. Boo fu**ing hoo.


----------



## DOUGRD (May 10, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> Ugh...
> 
> What is rich. $75k. $100k. $150k. I find your post whiney and pathetic. "What is the world going to do for me?". Please.
> 
> ...



Well Matt , you certainly took that one the wrong way! First of all I didn't say anything about "college for everyone" . I said soon the rich would be the only ones who could afford it. What the hell does that have to do with potential? Secondly the tuition here in Minnesota has gone up 12% -15% a year for the University of Minnesota. I know that for a fact because I've put two kids through college ( University of Wisconson at Madison (which is a hot bed of liberal B.S.) and the U of M, ST. Cloud.) and the third one is just finishing his second year. So don't bother telling me about sacrifices. And no I don't own a f-ckin' cell phone or a f-cking Yuppie gas sucking SUV just to set the record straight. Now, do you remember at the end of my "essay" I said " I just connect SOME dots sometimes and WONDER." It's a mental wandering exercise sort of thing. ......How about not having kids if you can't afford them. Where were you in 1974 when I got neutered because I figured on a E-4's pay in Uncle Sams Canoe Club there was no way we were having any more rug rats. I was way ahead of you there! By the way, what crawled up your b-tt and died? A few posts ago you were agreeing with me about the post 911 american attitude about Muslims ( did that sound liberal to you? If so PLEASE shoot my dumb as-!!) and all of a sudden I toss something out there after YOUR "Social Engineering" post to see what other folks viewpoint might be and you unload on me? That's pretty cold since you have no idea who you're talking to or what or what his background is. Man that's not quite the spirit of this forum if I understand it right. I think that shot was high and to the right.


----------



## Matt308 (May 10, 2007)

It was your post. Live with the criticism.


----------



## Njaco (May 10, 2007)

ummm....they'll never get rid of the middle class. Only source of income for both extreme ends of the spectrum.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2007)

DOUGRD said:


> So don't bother telling me about sacrifices. And no I don't own a f-ckin' cell phone or a f-cking Yuppie gas sucking SUV just to set the record straight.



Hey now! I own a Jeep Grand Cherokee and I certainly am not a ****ing Yuppie!


----------



## Matt308 (May 10, 2007)

You just can't hide it.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2007)

Im so Excited!


----------



## Matt308 (May 10, 2007)

...and Doug can't deny it.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2007)

Hes about to lose control I think he likes it!


Can we say spam?


----------



## Matt308 (May 10, 2007)

.


----------



## Matt308 (May 10, 2007)

My intention is not to piss off Doug. But some of his comments can't go without some form of rebuttal. And while Doug may not be a liberal, some of those comments in his post certainly are. And I think that these kinds of comments are damaging to our country.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2007)

I am not judging either one of you, except the Yuppie part!


----------



## DOUGRD (May 10, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> My intention is not to piss off Doug. But some of his comments can't go without some form of rebuttal. And while Doug may not be a liberal, some of those comments in his post certainly are. And I think that these kinds of comments are damaging to our country.



OK, which ones? If you don't agree with anything I say By all means have at it! But don't sling a bunch of b*llsh*t at the person saying it. Tell us what part you disagree with. You really didn't do much of that. So what specifically pissed you off? Was it the part about the airlines, arbitrators and the president? I worked at Northwest Airlines for 13 years so I know first hand what goes on in that industry. The college tuition? Obviously the tuition is different in various parts of the country, In Georgia, if your a resident college is darn near free. So, you didn't like the part about Blue collar jobs going overseas? Isn't that a fact too, and now even you engineering type folks are seeing your jobs starting to go to places like Singapore and India. True? The part about home loans and ARM mortgages pissed you off Matt? From what I've been reading in the newspapers and saw on the NBC Nightly News and heard from our real estate agents boss it's unfortunately true. You should see the foreclosures here in Alex. Population 11,000 and there's seven or eight a week listed in the newspaper. And some of those are on Builders who can't sell the homes. That's scary!!! Didn't you like the part about the apartment buildings full of serfs? A little Orwellian drama , 1984, Big Brother is watching. I thought it was a nice touch. What about the Healthcare part? Don't think that's true either? It's been in Newsweek a couple of times and on the TV news. Did you know that rich people supposedly live longer? And no 75K or 150k isn't rich. Try $750,000.00 annual salary. Didn't like the part about the insurance industry uping the rates on homeowners insurance? Me neither but that's what my insurance agent told me when I asked why my rate went up a couple of years ago. The hurricanes in Florida did it. Didn't you like the part about Clinton, Bush and Chaney staying home? That's right , Clinton didn't stay home, he went to England to be a Rhodes Scholar. So Matt give me some solid feed back here. What I really want to know is why you think "these kinds of comments are damaging our country"? And I'm very serious about that too. What's damaging our country is the politicians running it and the lobbyists in the shadows. Hear how the Drug industry convinced Congress to shoot down the imported drugs idea? DER ADLER-------You own a Jeep Grand Cherokee in Germany? How much is a liter going for these days? I never considered a Grand Cherokee an SUV because it was out way before most of them. An E-6 that worked for me back in 1985 had one and he would harass the junior officers who had smaller jeep products by saying "Well you almost bought a Jeep". But I guess you're right, it is that size so I'll take the hit on that one Later Guys!


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 11, 2007)

I pay about 63 cents a liter on post or with my gas coupons. 87 liter tank though...

If I had to buy gas at the German prices I would not own a Jeep it would cost aprox. 150 Euros to fill my tank.


----------



## DOUGRD (May 14, 2007)

Hi Guys, I've been out doing the house maintenance thing, getting it all prettied up to go on the market. Anyone want to live in beautiful Minnesota? bring your parka and fishing pole. 150 EUROs for a fill up???? I'd need a co-signer! I remember when we went over to Germany back in the late '90s I thought gas was pretty pricey then. When prices go up over here does that affect your prices at all? In this area they're talking about $4.00 a gallon for the summer. Right now it's $3.07 to $3.11 a gallon around town.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 15, 2007)

DOUGRD said:


> Hi Guys, I've been out doing the house maintenance thing, getting it all prettied up to go on the market. Anyone want to live in beautiful Minnesota? bring your parka and fishing pole. 150 EUROs for a fill up???? I'd need a co-signer! I remember when we went over to Germany back in the late '90s I thought gas was pretty pricey then. When prices go up over here does that affect your prices at all? In this area they're talking about $4.00 a gallon for the summer. Right now it's $3.07 to $3.11 a gallon around town.



Yeah it goes up atleast on Post it does. I dont buy my gas from the Germans. I buy it on post.

The prise went up though and it is now 86 cents a liter on post. It cost me 60 dollars to fill up my Jeep yesterday.


----------



## Matt308 (May 15, 2007)

$80+ for my truck. I heard that gas is at an all time high yesterday. About $3.45 here.


----------



## Erich (May 15, 2007)

is that all Matt ? I paid 3.65 two days ago.............nothing is cheap and this is going to blow out many of the trucking firms in our area unless we look at alternative source(s) real quick and with all the political finger in the eye jabbing it doesn't look real good in the near future


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 15, 2007)

I say take over the Middle East and take all there oil. Wait a minute according to all the liberals on this site that is what we are trying to do anyhow and are doing in Iraq!!!

I am going to write Bush and ask him why the price of gas is rising if we are taking it from Iraq.

Some people...


----------



## Erich (May 15, 2007)

do it Chris ! I cannot wait for 2008 if the demos get in totally and make us into governmentalized robots and gas will be 10.00 US gal, tax will go up four-fold.

did you know they are trying to enact a bill asap that the US public cannot send a note of suggestion(s) to their state congressmen ?

dang I may have to literally move back up into the mountains


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 15, 2007)

I might just stay here in Germany...


----------



## Matt308 (May 16, 2007)

Better than Iran...
____________________________________

It's an odd form of asylum, where one goes on welfare and takes the occasional hometrip on the host country's dime. [I know it did not say this guy specifically was on welfare, but in the general case ...]

But there is probably more to this story then we are being told.


Whipped for two beers - Aftenposten.no

Norwegian-Iranian Mamand Mamandy had a brutal meeting with police after drinking two beers while on holiday in Iran. 

"It's getting better now, but I am still in great pain," Mamandy, 35, told Aftenposten.no. "My brother is a doctor, and treated me after the whipping. I was in great pain and could not sleep."

Mamandy, a Kurd, explained that he was visiting his mother in Baneh, Iran in April when he was arrested by police.

"We were on an outing with family and friends, six or seven in the evening, and were having a barbecue and enjoying ourselves. 

Altogether I drank two beers. The police happened to drive by," Mamandy said.

He said that he was immediately arrested and taken to the police station where he was sentenced to 130 lashes. This sentence, for beer drinking, was carried out publicly according to news agency Iran Focus.

"I received 130 lashes on the back of my body. Police whipped me," Mamandy said. He came to Norway as an asylum seeker in 1999. He lives in Drammen with his wife and they are awaiting Norwegian citizenship.

Mamandy traveled home to Norway shortly after his punishment and has been since treated by his family doctor here.

Aftenposten.no has been in contact with the Foreign Ministry, who said that they had not been contacted by Mamandy or his family in connection with the matter.


----------



## Njaco (May 16, 2007)

They must be mistaken. This type of punishment only happens by American hands and nowhere in the Muslim nations! Isn't that what the liberals tell us? Man, am I bummed now.


----------



## DOUGRD (May 16, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I say take over the Middle East and take all there oil. Wait a minute according to all the liberals on this site that is what we are trying to do anyhow and are doing in Iraq!!!...



Let's nuke the place and make it one giant glass parking lot!


----------



## plan_D (May 17, 2007)

Don't start ranting about fuel prices ... there are British people here too!  

And, urh, by the way - if you think America has it bad with an Islamic invasion; wait until you get Asian only radio, Asian only TV, Asian only theme park days, Asian only this - Asian only that ("Asian" is actually refering to Muslim in every case; Liberals seem to forget the Indians and Chinese are Asian too). You can have Asian pride marchs - but you can't have White pride marchs - that's racism in the dictionary definition. 

And I'll tell you what America ... wait until your country spends over £5,000,000,000 (or comparitive GNP percentage to us) on Asylum seekers while you have 2.3 doctors to 1000 people (half as much as France), your hospitals having waiting lists for radiography because you have 263 machines for the population (France has 316); or your education falls by the wayside because the schools don't get funded ... or your engineering skills die because the government won't fund real on-the-job apprentice schemes ... or your government claws money back from the green frenzy by trying to run the aviation industry into the ground with taxes and emission charges ... or charge you road tax and charge per mile of driving as well as fuel prices higher than Simon Cowells pants ... which freakin' liars or idiots does the government listen to when they claim that aircraft is all so polluting - what other vehicle can take 200 odd passengers 14,000 miles and give off that little pollution per person, per mile! ? Didn't anyone ever tell them that the worlds population of cows give off more carbon and methane emissions than all cars and aircraft put together!? We should kill them off or kill off pigs - then the Muslims would be happy too ... or what about the fact that the standard British household gives off 1,500 kg more carbon dioxide than a car each year ... why not provide us with solar powered heating and energy saving light bulbs for that five-****ing-billion you spend on the tw*ts who under Asylum RULES should never even reach this country because it's the first safe country you come across - WE'RE A ****ING ISLAND; it's impossible to come across us first - unless you clung on to the underside of a 747 ... not f*ckin' likely .

Man, that's me done for a good fortnight (2 weeks, for people who don't know) or so.


----------



## Njaco (May 17, 2007)

> ...wait until your country spends over £5,000,000,000 (or comparitive GNP percentage to us) on Asylum seekers...



nah, we don't need to spend anything, they can come over our borders for free. We give them a driver license, money for a home and a business and a political action group to protect them.


----------



## amrit (May 17, 2007)

plan_D said:


> Don't start ranting about fuel prices ... there are British people here too!
> 
> And, urh, by the way - if you think America has it bad with an Islamic invasion; wait until you get Asian only radio, Asian only TV, Asian only theme park days, Asian only this - Asian only that ("Asian" is actually refering to Muslim in every case; Liberals seem to forget the Indians and Chinese are Asian too). You can have Asian pride marchs - but you can't have White pride marchs - that's racism in the dictionary definition.
> 
> ...



As an Indian born and brought up in the UK I find the above post completely offensive, and a load of bollocks. This thread has gone from being a discussion on Islam to out-right racism.

Obviously, this forum is no place for non-whites considering the amount of viterol posted by people like plan_D. And so I say my farewells to what I thought was a good forum on WW2 aviation.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 17, 2007)

Amrit he said nothing that was offensive in that at all.

He is entitled to his opinion, as you are yours. I sure as hell did not agree with everything you said in this forum, but I did not go and whine about it. Thats the problem with immigration an immigration everywhere not just the US and the UK. You can no longer speak your mind because someone gets offended about it.


----------



## plan_D (May 17, 2007)

I wasn't even talking about immigration; I was talking about "Asylum Seekers" - legal immigration, if kept in check, is fine with me. I have many Indian friends with whom I can discuss the increase in spending by the British government toward illegals or, so called, "Asylum Seekers". 

If, Amrit, you find the truth offensive - then so be it; your problem, not mine.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 17, 2007)

Very well put and in a diplomatic way.


----------



## Matt308 (May 17, 2007)

I'm actually very disappointed in you Amrit. I didn't think anything Plan D said was rascist or outrageous. Illegal immigrants are changing the social landscape of sovereign nations and folks are beginning to not tolerate it being hidden behind political correctness. There is lots of room for discussion, Amrit. And your apparent  over the matter does not endear your position to most's hearts. Too bad you are leaving.


----------



## Njaco (May 17, 2007)

I'm sorry you feel that way about Pb's and possibly my comments but to say racists? It was a thread about Muslims and as threads go it went alittle off topic. And the complaint is not aliens but "illegal" aliens that put a strain on economies worldwide. I think I would be angry at my brethern causing so much trouble. 

I really don't care who you are as long as you live peacefully and contribute like us all. But don't come and take my money, bitch about my country, question my ethics and shout that you're a victim.

I am curious about something. Why did you say you are an Indian born and raised in England? Wouldn't that make you British of Indian ancestry? Confuses the issue.  

I'm really sorry that you feel you have to leave. Progress only happens with healthy discourse without feeling suppressed. I hope that you can come back and continue to participate. If not, oh well.


----------



## DOUGRD (May 17, 2007)

amrit said:


> Obviously, this forum is no place for non-whites considering the amount of viterol posted by people like plan_D. And so I say my farewells to what I thought was a good forum on WW2 aviation.



Amrit: Don't Leave!! How can we have a balanced discussion if we don't have the input from someone who has a different view point? I lived in Detroit for two years with three other mechanics from Northwest Airlines and we were a mixed bag. One was Black, one was Indian, myself (Italian-Irish) and one other white guy from Iowa.We all knew each other for several years before we had to go to Detroit (if we wanted to keep our jobs) and Chandrashaker and I hired on together back in '92 and worked on the same crew for years. Let me tell you we had some lively discussions, and we enjoyed them because it was amazing how different we looked at some things.


----------



## Maharg (May 18, 2007)

I heard that in space 'nobody can hear you scream'. But, which way is Mecca?


----------

