# Second World War veteran ignored as he tackles gunman



## Colin1 (Feb 2, 2009)

A SECOND World War veteran who grappled with a gunman during an armed robbery has told how onlookers ignored his pleas for help.
Sidney Bannister, aged 83, grabbed 30-year old Henry Rockson in a headlock as the robber ran from a bookmaker's shop. During the struggle Mr Bannister appealed to the nine other customers, mostly young men, to help him but they would not step in.
Rockson escaped after beating the pensioner twice over the head with the butt of his gun. He later carried out armed raids in other parts of the country.

"Maybe it's just a sign of the times that people do not want to get involved these days" said Mr Bannister, who received stitches to his head after the robbery in Oldham. "I am not exactly in my prime but in my day we were brought up to have a go and not be a shrinking violet when we saw something happening that was very wrong.
I did not think about the gun or about being shot. I was more concerned about getting the guy so he would not be allowed to do this again. There were nine other men in the shop and most of them were either half my age or younger.

I just wish one of them had shown some gumption."

Rockson, of Peckham, south-east London, was jailed for 12 years yesterday after admitting 20 offences including the Oldham robbery.
Judge Mushtaq Khokhar at Minshull Street Crown Court, Manchester, awarded Mr Bannister £200 for his 'great public-spiritedness.'

The Daily Telegraph
Saturday January 31 2009


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Feb 2, 2009)

Got to say, he had guts to take on that gunman by himself. Don't know why the other nine men didn't help. Myself, I wouldn't take on a gunman by myself, but would've glady helped out Mr. Bannister. Who knows, maybe those guys were afraid of getting sued by the perp's family, that's happened before.


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## lesofprimus (Feb 2, 2009)

Piss on that, I woulda had that prick on the floor with a broken arm and a shattered sternum in 4 seconds.... 

That Vet shoulda got up with the blood streamin off his head and punched the first onlooker right in the mush.... Fuc*in cowards....


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Feb 2, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> Piss on that, I woulda had that prick on the floor with a broken arm and a shattered sternum in 4 seconds....
> 
> That Vet shoulda got up with the blood streamin off his head and punched the first onlooker right in the mush.... Fuc*in cowards....



Ahh, but your the ex SEAL, I'm just a snotnosed college student. Still, I wouldn't just sit idly watching a vet tussle with some thug. I always had this idea of hiding behind a door if a gunman showed up in my high school. When the SOB walks through, I'd whack with a chair of go for his gun.


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## lesofprimus (Feb 2, 2009)

True enough VZ, but to stand there and do nothing is just pathetic, and I hope all those 9 guys that stood there all felt some guilt at being such pussies....


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## Njaco (Feb 2, 2009)

> Judge Mushtaq Khokhar at Minshull Street Crown Court, Manchester, awarded Mr Bannister £200 for his 'great public-spiritedness.'



Over here Mr. Bannister would have been charged with creating a public nuisance.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Feb 2, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> True enough VZ, but to stand there and do nothing is just pathetic, and I hope all those 9 guys that stood there all felt some guilt at being such pussies....



I get what you're saying. I would feel lower than sh!t if I just stood there, and couldn't coop with the guilt. I've only gotten into a serious fight once, and it was over in a few seconds; had some guy make fun of me on the bus to a BB game, so I turned and punched him a few times in the head, never had a problem with him since.


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## Colin1 (Feb 2, 2009)

Njaco said:


> Over here Mr. Bannister would have been charged with creating a public nuisance.


Hey, don't worry
we're not far behind you; one Tony Martin spent time inside for blowing a thief away when two of them broke into his home. They made him do the full term because he refused to show any contrition for his 'crime'. 
There's a growing sentiment over here that the judicial system protects the guilty and punishes the victim if he has the pluck to hit back.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Feb 2, 2009)

Colin1 said:


> Hey, don't worry
> we're not far behind you; one Tony Martin spent time inside for blowing a thief away when two of them broke into his home. They made him do the full term because he refused to show any contrition for his 'crime'.
> There's a growing sentiment over here that the judicial system protects the guilty and punishes the victim if he has the pluck to hit back.



Well I'm sure if that happened in Berkely, California, there would have been an uproar against Mr. Bannister. Colin, what was the charge against Tony Martin?


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## Colin1 (Feb 2, 2009)

Vassili Zaitzev said:


> Well I'm sure if that happened in Berkely, California, there would have been an uproar against Mr. Bannister. Colin, what was the charge against Tony Martin?


I don't recall
but likely manslaughter, I don't know what you guys call it but 'not quite murder'; they reasoned his response was excessive. Though he wasn't a pensioner, Mr Martin wasn't a young man and a couple of thugs breaking into his home was probably quite intimidating.

They pictured the two thugs during the trial, including the dead one - believe me, he did the gene pool a favour.


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## lesofprimus (Feb 2, 2009)

He was charged with manslaughter and it was the 5th time his home was broken into... Enough is enough....


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## Erich (Feb 2, 2009)

Dan is right, enough of this crap of just watching someone get the stuff beat out of them and for what ? get in there and help, take whatever measures it seems correct to bring down the assailant.

dang guys are becoming such pussies these days


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## lesofprimus (Feb 2, 2009)

Totally agree Erich...


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Feb 2, 2009)

Colin1 said:


> I don't recall
> but likely manslaughter, I don't know what you guys call it but 'not quite murder'; they reasoned his response was excessive. Though he wasn't a pensioner, Mr Martin wasn't a young man and a couple of thugs breaking into his home was probably quite intimidating.
> 
> They pictured the two thugs during the trial, including the dead one - believe me, he did the gene pool a favour.



That's bullshit! He protects himself and his property from two thugs, and he was the one imprisoned!!!?? What the hell has happened to the world?!


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## GrauGeist (Feb 2, 2009)

Those 9 asshats probably didn't jump in to help Mr. Bannister because they had soiled themselves...

Society has become nothing but sheep this day and age, and that's when the wolves come out...


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Feb 2, 2009)

GrauGeist said:


> Those 9 asshats probably didn't jump in to help Mr. Bannister because they had soiled themselves...
> 
> Society has become nothing but sheep this day and age, and that's when the wolves come out...



I think part of the reason is that if you look at someone the wrong way, you'll get sued. There was a case in California where a woman sued a good samitiaran from her crashed car. Apparetenely, she'd suffered spine damage in the crash, and when her rescuer pulled her out she'd became a parapelegic. She won her court case, but where the hell do you drawn the line?!


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## GrauGeist (Feb 2, 2009)

Yeah, I remember that...what a load of crap...

If the guy didn't try and help, then he'd probably have been sued for not helping!

The idiots that sue for personal "damages" don't understand that the people and companies they sue have to get the money from somewhere...so it's not "magical" money pulled off a tree somewhere, but ends up coming out of consumer's pockets in the form of increased insurance rates or product price hikes, etc...

No matter, I'd have still come to Mr. Bannister's aid, and then sort the details later.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Feb 2, 2009)

GrauGeist said:


> Yeah, I remember that...what a load of crap...
> 
> If the guy didn't try and help, then he'd probably have been sued for not helping!
> 
> ...



Exactly, he got sued when he helped, and if he didn't helped he still would've gotten sued, he'd be f##ked either way. 

I still don't know what I would do if I was there seeing Mr. Bannister fight with the thug. I've never been in that situation, so I don't know how I would react. Hopefully, I'd do the right thing and step in.


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## Hop (Feb 3, 2009)

> That's bullshit! He protects himself and his property from two thugs, and he was the one imprisoned!!!??



That wasn't the case with Tony Martin. 

He was tried, and convicted, for murder. It was finally reduced to manslaughter on appeal because doctors convinced the court he suffered from paranoia so wasn't fully responsible for his actions.

Martin had a history. He fired a revolver in to his girlfriend's house many years earlier when she refused to see him. He lost his shotgun licence after shooting at someone who had taken some apples from his tree.

The reasons Martin was convicted of murder:

He had frequently told people of his hatred of gypsies, and how he'd like to kill them. (the burglars were gypsies)

After shooting them, he left the scene, hid the shotgun at his mother's house, then checked in to a hotel for the night. He didn't inform the police.

When questioned by the police, he lied about the events. He claimed to have fired from the top of the stairs. Ballistics evidence showed he come down stairs, chased after the burglars, and shot them in the back as they ran away.

Martin is often held up as the poster boy for self defence, but what he did doesn't fit under the category of self defence. He decided to punish burglars by killing them, which is a different thing altogether.



> They made him do the full term because he refused to show any contrition for his 'crime'.



Martin was released after serving 3 years. His original life sentence for murder had been reduced to 5 years for manslaughter.


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## RabidAlien (Feb 3, 2009)

Hop said:


> That wasn't the case with Tony Martin.
> 
> He was tried, and convicted, for murder. It was finally reduced to manslaughter on appeal because doctors convinced the court he suffered from paranoia so wasn't fully responsible for his actions.
> 
> ...



Ah. Those details make the story a bit different. In that case, I would actually have to agree with the verdict.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Feb 3, 2009)

But listen to this folks. Tony Martin may not have been a hero but..........

Father of Tony Martin victim jailed for raid
================================

FRED BARRAS, father and namesake of the teenager burglar shot dead by Tony Martin, the Norfolk farmer, was jailed for 14 years yesterday for leading a £400,000 armed robbery.

Barras, 46, who barely knew his son, was the ringleader of a gang that held a lone woman security guard at gunpoint during a planned raid on a warehouse. Lisa Taylor's wrists and ankles were bound with flex before the raiders escaped with three lorries loaded with clothing belonging to the fashion chain Next.

Miss Taylor struggled free and called police on her mobile phone. She suffered physical injuries and was so psychologically affected that she had to leave her job and undergo counselling.

The robbery took place a month after Tony Martin, 55, was jailed for life in April last year after being found guilty of murdering 16-year-old Fred Barras.

Barras senior was convicted of conspiracy to rob at the end of a nine-day trial at Leeds Crown Court. David Sumner, his barrister, said his client had a record of dishonesty offences from many years ago.

He said: "To some extent he had lived down his past. There may be some connection with the tragic events of his recent life, in relation to the death of his teenage son, and his turn to crime."

Barras, of Pollington, East Yorks, and his wife Ellen, separated shortly after the birth of their sixth child, Fred. The next time he saw his son was at his funeral. He showed no emotion as he was sentenced.

Judge Peter Charlesworth told him: "You took a leading part in a very serious planned robbery in which a gun was put to the temple of the loan female security officer in the middle of the night. It involved a considerable amount of planning, both in observations beforehand and in how to dispose of the stolen vehicles and property, and it was executed in a very professional manner."

The late Fred Barras's grandmother, Elizabeth Barras, 69, had also faced charges of possessing a firearm and assisting an offender. The judge ordered the matter not to be proceeded with and left on the file after the prosecution said it had decided not to pursue the case against her because of her medical problems. It had been alleged she had a gun, but not the gun that was pointed at Miss Taylor.

Two other men were convicted in connection with the robbery.
================================================

I guess your right about the gene pool, this family hasn't been a good one. 

About the veteran who stopped the robbery, I would feel ashamed if I stood by and watched a old man get beat on the head for his bravery while I did nothing to stop it and help him.


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## Colin1 (Feb 3, 2009)

Hop said:


> He was tried, and convicted, for murder. It was finally reduced to manslaughter on appeal because doctors convinced the court he suffered from paranoia so wasn't fully responsible for his actions.
> 
> Martin had a history. He fired a revolver in to his girlfriend's house many years earlier when she refused to see him. He lost his shotgun licence after shooting at someone who had taken some apples from his tree.
> 
> ...


With the benefit of clinical detachment from all of this, it's easy to shake our heads and tut-tut at a man too ready to pull the trigger.
I wonder how many times the average joe needs to be burgled before siege mentality sets in. In Tony Martin's case, it was five times and the instance prior to the shooting, £6,000 worth of property was taken.
Where were the Police? In incidents like these, all too often, an officer might turn up 2-3 days after the crime, if he turns up at all. It's much more glamorous and high-profile to spend crime budget on souped-up pursuit cars and chase down joyriders and speeding idiots. Hell, you might even end up on TV.
He was wrong, he shouldn't have shot them if they were fleeing but is it right that the surviving burglar can sue him for loss of earnings? Doing what? More burglary? It's the topsy-turvy way in which law is dispensed in this country that is pissing so many people off; if you're a tax-paying citizen and drive a car without insurance you don't have a leg to stand on. Too fast through a speed camera zone and it's the same. If you're a low-life junkie* injured in the execution of a burglary well, stand up for your rights, young man. 

*the surviving burglar ended up serving a sentence concurrent with Tony Martin's on an unrelated drugs offence.

a slightly less biased opinion that tries to walk the centre ground...

The real lessons of the Tony Martin case - Deborah Orr, Commentators - The Independent


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## Hop (Feb 3, 2009)

I agree with you. My sympathies lie with Martin. But as a practical matter allowing people to kill those who have wronged them is not the solution.

I also agree with you about the police. The Labour government took a deliberate decision to focus the efforts of the police on the middle class, rather than on the criminal classes. The Stephen Lawrence inquiry was used expressly for this purpose.



> is it right that the surviving burglar can sue him for loss of earnings?



No. Although that case didn't get anywhere, again it was deliberate actions by the Labour government that led to the explosion in civil court cases, especially with regards to "human rights".


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 3, 2009)

Damn someone should have helped that vet. What is this world coming to.


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## Amsel (Feb 3, 2009)

Here in Texas we still have the castle laws, thank goodness. Thieves, robbers and such do not get much mercy from the courts and public.


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## Crunch (Feb 4, 2009)

I wouldn't have jumped in first, as long as it was going as a standard robbery, had someone been in direct danger, maybe another story.

HOWEVER, if the vet (or anyone) had jumped on him, I would have been on their back 110%. How they can just stand there and watch him try and hold on to this scumbag is waaay beyond me.


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## Gnomey (Feb 4, 2009)

Yeah it is despicable but kind of expected these days. Would of certainly helped out if I had been there.


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## Clay_Allison (Feb 6, 2009)

Colin1 said:


> A SECOND World War veteran who grappled with a gunman during an armed robbery has told how onlookers ignored his pleas for help.
> Sidney Bannister, aged 83, grabbed 30-year old Henry Rockson in a headlock as the robber ran from a bookmaker's shop. During the struggle Mr Bannister appealed to the nine other customers, mostly young men, to help him but they would not step in.
> Rockson escaped after beating the pensioner twice over the head with the butt of his gun. He later carried out armed raids in other parts of the country.
> 
> ...


Guns don't exist in England, hence the rbber couldn't have had one. The British are civilised enough to make their law-abiding citizens helpless, unlike we poor brutish Texans.


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## Hop (Feb 6, 2009)

> Guns don't exist in England, hence the rbber couldn't have had one.



He didn't, he had a toy gun, which is why no one got shot.



> The BB gun which he used in the raids was found to be incapable of firing.
> 
> Rockson admitted 20 offences including robbery, attempted robbery, having an imitation firearm with intent and handling stolen goods.


War veteran, 83, put armed robber in headlock while men half his age stood by | Mail Online

Real handguns are very hard to come by in the UK, which is why a career criminal like Rockson had to make do with a toy.


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## Clay_Allison (Feb 7, 2009)

Hop said:


> He didn't, he had a toy gun, which is why no one got shot.
> 
> 
> War veteran, 83, put armed robber in headlock while men half his age stood by | Mail Online
> ...


Well, I'm glad I'm uncivilised enough to know a toy from the real thing at a glance.


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## Ferdinand Foch (Feb 7, 2009)

Whoa, an 83 year old man has the balls to take on a robber, but nine men of the younger generation will almost crap the pants for just looking at the struggle, what the hell. I'd probably be scared shitless during a robbery, but if someone needed help (especially an 80+ year old man), I'm not gonna sit around and watch the fireworks.


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## Clay_Allison (Feb 8, 2009)

Ferdinand Foch said:


> Whoa, an 83 year old man has the balls to take on a robber, but nine men of the younger generation will almost crap the pants for just looking at the struggle, what the hell. I'd probably be scared shitless during a robbery, but if someone needed help (especially an 80+ year old man), I'm not gonna sit around and watch the fireworks.


Honestly they probably just froze, most people freeze when surprized and under pressure.


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## Lucky13 (Feb 8, 2009)

Man...I'd have been right in there with Mr Bannister! He'd (the criminal) get a kick in the gentleman vegetables so hard, that when he'd come in to have his tonsils removed, they'd removing his nuts instead by mistake and having shoelaces coming out his nose...!

However Dan, I don't quite agree with you that those standing by and watching were p*ssies, that would be giving p*ssies a bad reputation. These persons would have to climb UP to get to the bottom of the rubbish bin...


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## Clay_Allison (Feb 8, 2009)

Lucky13 said:


> Man...I'd have been right in there with Mr Bannister! He'd (the criminal) get a kick in the gentleman vegetables so hard, that when he'd come in to have his tonsils removed, they'd removing his nuts instead by mistake and having shoelaces coming out his nose...!
> 
> However Dan, I don't quite agree with you that those standing by and watching were p*ssies, that would be giving p*ssies a bad reputation. These persons would have to climb UP to get to the bottom of the rubbish bin...


You know, on second thought I can't give them the benefit of the doubt on freezing because the old man asked for help and that should have unfroze them.

I would have jumped in right after he did. I worked in a prison before becoming a teacher. It'd be the same as seeing one of my fellow officers slugging it out with an inmate.


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