# BoB GB 109E questions....



## Lucky13 (Feb 1, 2010)

I've got decals for three Bf 109E's with '13' on them, the questions is if they took part in the BoB or not....

1. Heinz Bar, Bf 109E-3, White 13, Wk. Nr. 3714, I./JG51 based in Pihen, France September '40.
2. ?, Bf 109E-4, Yellow 13, Wk. Nr. ?, 9./JG54 ?, ? '40.
3. ?, Bf 109E-1, Red 13, Wk. Nr. ?, 2./JG26, France '40. This one say 'early '40' though, so it's still a question mark.
If none of these will fit, I might get this set.....or I'll just get it anyway for the '13'.  

Now, a Spitfire from the No. 74 Squadron.....


----------



## Airframes (Feb 2, 2010)

The JG54 and JG26 birds almost certainly, although I'd need to check deeper. Got any pics? Not sure about Bar's crate though - Pihen was south east of Wissant, and I'd thought *III/JG51*, the other two fields being at St. Omer and Wissant itself; I can check further though. If it was September, then yes, it would have been involved, unless transferred or written off. Again, any pics? If I can see 'em. I''ll probably recognise them, or can at least double check my refs.
EDIT: A quick check shows that I Gruppe were indeed at Pihen, a large field divided by a minor road, and with somewhat primitive conditions. The Jabo's of 2 Staffel used one half of the field, the rest of I Gruppe the other. The Gruppe played little part in the Battle until mid - August, so, for September, one can assume this aircraft and pilot would more than likely have been in the Battle.


----------



## Lucky13 (Feb 3, 2010)

Cheers Terry old boy! I found that Bar is credited with 10 kills in BoB, so I think that his 'White 13' is good....


----------



## Airframes (Feb 3, 2010)

Aaaannnd you might like to know there's a 'Future Release' of Bar's Bf109E due out this year, in 1/48th scale, from Academy I believe.........maybe in time for the BoB GB?


----------



## imalko (Feb 3, 2010)

Terry, did you mean this one? If yes, it's already released. I saw this model in my local hobby shop last time I was there.


----------



## Lucky13 (Feb 3, 2010)

Nice one Igor! I'll have to look for that one then... Cheers lads!


----------



## Wurger (Feb 3, 2010)

I Have the one in my stash...


----------



## Airframes (Feb 3, 2010)

Nice! That'll be the one Igor. It's shown as a 'Future Release' on the Hannant's web-site, at £12.98. As a price is shown, I guess it must be imminent in the UK.


----------



## lesofprimus (Feb 3, 2010)

Not to highjack, but these are the 5 profiles offered with my Eduard 1:32 Bf109E-4 Jan.... I like Wick's crate, but Gallands looks better to me....

I am 99% positive I will be doin Yellow 13 Brother, so u and I will be kickin it the right way......


----------



## Airframes (Feb 3, 2010)

Ah Ha! That was going to be one of my possible choices! No probs, it's now definitely made the decision for me - I'll do a certain 'White 6' instead!
I see they have von Werra's '109 on the decal sheet - wondered when that one would show up again. Just out of interest Dan, on the decals for Galland's machine, have they got the starboard side Mickey Mouse badge the right way around, with Mickey and the pistol facing to the rear? Cos Hasegawa haven't! I got their 1/32nd 109E from Daniel last week, and the decals are a bit pale for Wick's machine (possibly an end of run, or light on the ink) and the Galland markings are incorrect!


----------



## Njaco (Feb 4, 2010)

Jan, just found a few pics of '13s' during the BoB in Caldwell's JG 26 book. And I know of a few in the Jagdwaffe: BoB series as well. Will try to scan and get posted for you.

I'm being stupid but when does the BoB build start?


----------



## Lucky13 (Feb 4, 2010)

Please do my friend, cheers! Is not the same date as when it started in reality.... let me check. BoB GB, Aug 1st-Nov 30th.


----------



## Airframes (Feb 4, 2010)

Roll on August 1st !
Chris, do you still want to do something about the BoB? I think you mentioned a day by day sort of thing? I'm considering putting together a unit listing for both sides, showing markings, locations, maps etc - if I have enough time!


----------



## Njaco (Feb 4, 2010)

Yeah, I plan on starting July 10 but I don't have a word processor at the moment and can't access my files. Working on that and hopefully will be able to go full bore by the summer.

August!!!! I need to find another build sooner. I'm getting an itch and I need a Group Build for motivation.


----------



## Airframes (Feb 4, 2010)

Well there's always the D-Day one, on now, or the Cold War GB, starting May 1st......


----------



## Njaco (Feb 4, 2010)

For what I have, none of those will work.

Jan, found these in...

"JG 26 War Diary" by Caldwell
"Jagdwaffe: Battle of Britain" by Eric Mombeek


----------



## lesofprimus (Feb 4, 2010)

Damn some sweet ones there Chris, including some great shots of the 13 Im gonna do.....

I love the White 13 forward of the cockpit, badass...


----------



## Njaco (Feb 4, 2010)

I thought the same thing on the white '13'. I also have a shot of a 'Yellow 13' with a 'White 5' under the cockpit but its from April 1940. Apparently the dual numbers were added as planes were attached to Tr 186.


----------



## Lucky13 (Feb 5, 2010)

My favorite is the 'Yellow 13' from 9./JG54! Great stuff Chris!


----------



## lesofprimus (Feb 5, 2010)

Same one Im doin Jan...


----------



## 109ROAMING (Feb 5, 2010)

Gonna be a few 1/32 109's in this GB

Terry's , mine, Dan's, Jan's...


----------



## Lucky13 (Feb 5, 2010)

Just the machine that's missing, already have the decals....


----------



## Airframes (Feb 5, 2010)

You could always scratch-build a '109 using the other decal sheets or kit boxes!


----------



## Njaco (Feb 5, 2010)

You guys have noticed that the fuselage cross on that 9./JG 54 machine is well worn? Ought to be interseting how ya'll do that!  At 1/32 scale!!!


----------



## Airframes (Feb 5, 2010)

Just use a tin of Humbrol No.632 'Well Worn' paint........


----------



## Njaco (Feb 5, 2010)




----------



## Lucky13 (Feb 5, 2010)

Have seen some other '13' decals for early E's at Hannants....


----------



## lesofprimus (Feb 5, 2010)

Not sure what u mean Chris.... I think the clarity of the scan is whats makin it look slightly faded...

We are talking about Yellow 13 with the stripes correct???


----------



## Njaco (Feb 5, 2010)

Yeah, look at the first pic from the right side of the plane from the tail. The balkenkruez definately has some wear in the middle of it.


----------



## lesofprimus (Feb 5, 2010)

Ah yes, now I see what ur talkin about... I would assume that that was messed up like that from the crash landing....

If not, we need some verification that it was indeed like that prior to the shootdown...

Will make it more interesting if indeed it was wear and tear....


----------



## Njaco (Feb 5, 2010)

I couldn't really tell one way or the other. But now you guys got me thinking about doing a '13'. I have a 1/48 , 1/32 and a 1/24 Bf 109E but without an airbrush the painting of large surfaces will be daunting. WTH, I've got a few months!


----------



## Lucky13 (Feb 5, 2010)

Wear and tear, or maybe, even a piece of metal missing due to bullets?


----------



## Wayne Little (Feb 19, 2010)

109ROAMING said:


> Gonna be a few 1/32 109's in this GB
> 
> Terry's , mine, Dan's, Jan's...



...and Wayne's!!


----------



## kgambit (Feb 19, 2010)

Wayne Little said:


> ...and Wayne's!!



And maybe a couple of 1/72 contributions as well.


----------



## DBII (Feb 19, 2010)

I know, I jumping in late on this thread. I would like to build Werra's 109, the last image on posting#9

DBII


----------



## Lucky13 (Feb 26, 2010)

Got this set for the BoB GB later this year. Thinking of getting Bar's 'White 13' too, most likely in the shape of Academy's new 1/48 E-3, which comes with his markings in the box, from Cartograf.....

Some here might say that there are no options..... I like the camouflage on the 'Black 13'. 8)


----------



## lesofprimus (Feb 26, 2010)

LMAO Jan, white 2 that u posted up above has a set of red lips smoking a ciggarette.....


----------



## Wayne Little (Feb 26, 2010)

lesofprimus said:


> LMAO Jan, white 2 that u posted up above has a set of red lips smoking a ciggarette.....



It's accurate too Dan there is a front pic showing it.


----------



## Lucky13 (Feb 27, 2010)

Keep going back to the JG54 and their 'Emils'. Was this camouflage used during the BoB? If that's the case, it gives me another possibilty to consider of the '109's....


----------



## Airframes (Feb 27, 2010)

Well, JG54 were known for having a number of different schemes, although whether this was 'their' interpretation of orders, or official experiement is not clear. By the latter part of the BoB, and certainly after the 'official' end (31 Oct 1940), the scheme shown was being introduced, and later formed the basis of the 'snake skin' scheme seen on the 109E's and later the 109F's, in Russia.


----------



## Lucky13 (Feb 27, 2010)

Would one be allowed to do this one then, or?


----------



## Airframes (Feb 27, 2010)

Probably old boy, if there's evidence of it actually being in the 'official' BoB, and not the interpretation of it carrying on into 1941. I'll have a look, as I've got pics somewhere of the scheme, before Russia.


----------



## Lucky13 (Feb 28, 2010)

Much obliged old boy! One have his fingers crossed don't you know. If not, one is quite happy with the Black and/or White 13 (Bar's) here.... 8)


----------



## lesofprimus (Feb 28, 2010)

> Originally Posted by lesofprimus
> LMAO Jan, white 2 that u posted up above has a set of red lips smoking a ciggarette.....
> 
> 
> ...



Thats an awesome crate to model, very original...


----------



## Airframes (Feb 28, 2010)

Well, so far I've found a JG54 scheme 'bordering' on the one you posted Jan, but I need to tie down the date more precisely, as it might be very late 1940 or early 1941. There_ was _one which was close though, with cross hatching, and even one which looks like lattice work.


----------



## Lucky13 (Mar 1, 2010)

Thanks awfully old boy!


----------



## Lucky13 (Mar 1, 2010)

Still looking but found these so far.....The Jagdgeschwader 54 HomePage

At least it shows that 6./JG54 flew with a somewhat similar camouflage at the time BoB....

"Yellow 12" Fw. Ernst Arnold 3./JG 27 - Reference: Jagdwaffe: Battle of Britain Phase Two page 170.

"White 2" Fw. Paul Boche 4./JG 52 - Reference: Jagdwaffe: Battle of Britain Phase Three page 256, Bernd Barbas History of II./JG 52. 

_"Yellow 10" W. Nr. 6352 6./JG 54 - Reference: Jagdwaffe: Battle of Britain Phase Four page 336._ 

"Black 13" 2./JG 77 - Reference: Jochen Prien Die Jagdfliegervarbande der Deutschen Luftwaffe, 1934 – 1945 Vol 4/ II page 98.


----------



## Airframes (Mar 1, 2010)

Yep, 'Yellow 10' was one of those I'd spotted in the Jagdwaffe series, but I need to verify a date. This series, excellent though it is, has a couple of questionable areas though, not least it dealing with the Battle into 1941 ! The official British history records the dates of the BoB from 10 July to 31 October 1940 which, as we all know, is open to interpretation!
Personally, I feel the BoB 'as we know it', continued at least until late November, possibly early December, when the daylight Frei Jagd and Jabo raids continued which, although nowhere near as intense as the previous daylight attacks, still gave cause for Fighter Command to launch sorties to combat the raiders. After this time, with the emphasis being on night attacks, considered in British history as a separate 'battle', normally just refered to as 'The Blitz', those raids undertaken in daylight don't really warrant being included in the title 'Battle of Britain' , if only due to their 'sporadic' and weak nature. Rather, they could be considered 'engagements', or 'fights', rather than a 'battle', as subsequent daylight incursions eventually were. 
I think it's going to be a concensus of opinion from the members as to which dates are being used for the _five _phases of the BoB, for the purposes of the GB. For my part, I would say from 10 July to end of November, and nothing later, otherwise it will be difficult to draw a line as to when the BoB actually _did _end, as virtually any daylight incursion up to and including 1944 could be construed as a continuation of the battle!


----------



## Lucky13 (Mar 2, 2010)

July-November sounds ok to me old boy...!


----------



## Airframes (Mar 2, 2010)

OK, then the 'predecessor' of that scheme was known to have been in existance, with the cross hatch mottle pattern, and what appears tp be a lighter, less defined 'large' mottle of RLM 02 in between the 'crosses'. In other words, not as 'hard' and as defined as the pattern eventually used in Russia, normally refered to as the 'snake skin' scheme.
If you can find one like that which fits the dates, no problem.


----------



## Lucky13 (Mar 2, 2010)

Much obliged old boy!


----------



## Airframes (Mar 2, 2010)

My pleasure old chap. Do have a Sherry.


----------



## kgambit (Mar 3, 2010)

For those of us who work in the smaller scales, here's a MARCH, 2010 release from Revell:

1/72 Messerschmitt Bf109E-3/4

Code: REV04679 
No. of parts 34


----------



## Airframes (Mar 3, 2010)

Looks rather nice. This BoB GB has sparked me off - I fancy doing a Bf109E from every JG in the BoB (only seven), maybe one from each Gruppe, in 1/48th. Ah, dreams! With three to do in 1/32nd scale, I won't have room!


----------



## Lucky13 (Mar 3, 2010)

Thinking of getting the Eduard and do that 'tiger striped' 13, but not for the GB though, as Dan is doing that one....


----------

