# Anglo Boer war.



## Henk (Feb 7, 2007)

One of the worst wars ever fought before the Great war was the Anglo Boer war. Why do I say it was one of the worst? The fact that so many woman and children were used to win a war that the strongest country in the world could not win. The war were all about wealth. The two Boer states the Transvaal and the Free State went to war with the British Army in 1899 and fought on for almost 3 years and proved that the size of your army does not mean a total victory but the way you use the few you have.

82,742 Boers against a well equipped and well trained British Army of 346,693, and to think the war went on for so long.

Now the Anglo Boer war means much to the True Afrikaans Speaking person in the sense that many of there fore fathers died and fought in the war. My Family also fought during the war and the Great Boer General Koos De la Rey was the Hero of the war with the victories of Magersfontein and Spijoenkop some of the great battles he fought.

General De la Rey also invented the Gorilla war fare tactic which has been used all over the world made him very famous and it proved very successful against the British Army.


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## Erich (Feb 7, 2007)

Hendrik are you going to be bringing up some specific battles that we may read upon ? you would be the perfect source on this almost unknown conflict

many thanks

Erich


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## Henk (Feb 7, 2007)

Yes, I will get out all my books and bring you all the info of all the greatest and not so great and not so famous battles during the Anglo Boer War.


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## Henk (Feb 7, 2007)

A little bit of History of before the war started.

When General JH (Koos) de la Rey had the first shot of this war fired on Thursday, 12th October 1899, nobody would have thought that the English hopes for a war were not only answered, but that this was to be the bloodiest and dearest war the Empire ever fought - until the Great War 1914-18.

The build up to this, the Second Boer War, was a long and confusing one.

After the Great Treck (1835-7) and the Zulu War ( 1838 ) the 1st Boer War (1880-1) marked the first culmination in the strive of the two Boer Republics - the Zuid-Afrikaansche-Republiek (ZAR) or Transvaal and the Oranje-Vrijstaat (OFS) or Orange Free State - to remain independent from British rule. The Burgher Forces of the Transvaal were victorious in all four battles fought in this war - the victory in the Battle of Majuba Hill still being celebrated or cursed today, depending on were ones sympathy lies. After this 1st Boer War, the Boer Republics were able to regain their somewhat shortlived independence at least on paper. But British rule in the Cape Colony and Natal made sure that the discovered riches of gold in the Transvaal were used to destabilise the young republic. In 1895/96, Cecil Rhodes, the former Governor of the Cape Colony, organised the infamous Jameson Raid on the Transvaal, which was fought off and eventually led to the hardening of lines between the Boer Republic and the British interests in southern Africa. British subjects in the Transvaal, the socalled Uitlanders, were used for an uprising against the elected Government, and the British High Commissioner for South Africa in Cape Town, Sir Alfred Milner, openly demanded the annexation of the Boer Republic by the crown.

From 2nd to 5th of June 1899, President MT Steyn of the Orange Free State, hosted a Peace Conference between the Transvaal and the British High Commission in Bloemfontein which failed to achieve the desired result.

The number of Imperial British troops in South Africa rose from 8456 men with 24 artillery pieces in december 1898 to 22 104 men with 60 artillery pieces in october 1899. On top of this, Britain called for mobilisation on October 7th 1899, to sent an army corps of 47 551 officers and men with 122 guns to push through the British interests in South Africa.

This led to the mobilisation of the ZAR and OFS forces - a total of approx 32 000 civilians under arms. Further, on October 9th the Transvaal issued an ultimatum to Britain, demanding that all open questions have to be addressed peacefully, all British Imperial troops on the border to the Boer Republic have to be withdrawn and that all British troops on their way to South Africa have to return to Britain.

The ultimatum expired at 5,00 pm on October 10th 1899.

On October 11th 1899, about 800 Republicans under General JH Koos de la Rey attacked the British armoured train “Mosquito” at Kraaipan. Lieutenant Nesbit and thirty-four soldiers, nine of them wounded, surrendered the next morning. The Burgher Troops of the ZAR discovered British Mark IV ammunition in the train, better known as dumdum....


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## Wildcat (Feb 8, 2007)

Interesting topic Henk. As you would know Australia fought in the Boer war with about 16 500 soldiers serving there. Of these, roughly 600 died, though most through disease. 5 VC's were awarded during the war.
The Boer War is immortalised in Australian History through the Breaker Morant incident which you may or may not know about. This is still tought in school today.
See here for Australia's involvement in the Boer War.Boer War and
Boer War; Dutch farmers fighting Aussie farmers


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## Henk (Feb 8, 2007)

Yes, Scotish, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand troops fought with the British army.

Here are a few of the great Boer Hero's.

Presidant Kruger (Transvaal)

Presidant Stein (Oranje Vrystaat/ Orange Freestate)

General Jacobus (Koos) De la Rey

General Pieter (Piet) Cronje

General Christiaan De Wet

and a French man, Goerges, Comte de Villebois-Mareuil

Here are a few great battles that took place.

* Talana * (20th October 1899) 

Although the first shot of the war was not fired at Talana (Dundee), Natal, it is regarded of having been the first real battle of the war. General Lucas Meyer with about 3.500 men of the Utrecht, Wakkerstroom, Krugersdorp, Vryheid, Middelburg and Piet Retief commandos, and three 75mm guns, were attacking the 4.363 British men and 3 artillery batteries under the command of Major-General Sir William Penn Symons stationed at Dundee. 

Even though the British fought off the Boer attack and General Lucas Meyer had to withdraw from the hills overlooking Dundee, the brave effort of the Burghers were costly for the Empire. The British commander Sir William Penn Symons was killed in action, the British suffered 52 killed, 203 wounded and 246 men captured by the Boers. This in comparison to the 31 killed, 66 wounded and 20 captured on the Boer side. Brigadier-General Yule, second in command to Penn Symons, had to withdraw his forces from Dundee to Ladysmith.

The town of Dundee was to be occupied by Boer forces until 15th May 1900 - after the relief of Ladysmith.


* Elandslaagte * 21st October 1899

Just one day after the battle of Talana, a british cavalry reconnaissance under the command of Major-General JPD French led to a battle with the Boer forces of General JHM Kock near the town of Elandslaagte. 

Kock´s 850 men of the Johannesburg commando, the German and Hollander Corps and two 75 mm guns were soon to be overrun by French´s 3.500 men and 18 guns. In a running battle that pushed the Boer forces off the hills around the town and way back north, the British artillery demonstrated a fine display of disciplin in advancing several kilometres with stopping and firing at a very high rate. 

After the battle a large number of Boers were forced to withdraw over a wide open field to the north-east of Elandslaagte, where they were attacked by the first squadron of the 5th Lancers and the Dragoon Guards. The British cavalry showed no mercy and charged three times over an area covering two kilometres. Many Boers died praying and on their knees, begging for mercy. There are many reports and instances of cruelty and bloodthirsty “pig sticking” on this charge of the British cavalry - which was the last cavalry charge by the British army in a set piece battle.

The casualties amounted to 45 killed, 110 wounded and 188 captured on the Boer side - amongst them the Count of Zeppelin of the German Corps. The British lost 50 killed and 213 wounded.


The British Black Week


* Stormberg * 12th December 1899 

The British General Gatacre decides to attack Stormberg Junction, one of the most important railway junctions in the region of Molento. Rushing his forces of 2.700 men and 12 field guns in a night march in the direction of Stormberg junction, Gatacre exhausted his men and sent them directly into battle after their arrival. About 1.700 Burghers under the command of Chief Commandant JH Olivier were taken by surprise but managed to fight off the British charge. Due to the british scouts losing their way and many an Imperial soldier falling asleep on the battlefield due to exhaustion the battle soon came to an end.

After just 75 minutes Gatacre called off his attack and withdrew. The British casualties amounted to 25 killed, 102 wounded, 672 men taken prisoner and three field guns captured by the Boers. Republican casualties amount to 5 killed and 16 wounded.


* Magersfontein * 11th and 12th December 1899

At 4:00 am, 3.400 Highlanders sent by Lord Methuen under the command of General Wauchope, massed in quarter columns (which means that 3.400 men form a rectangle of 38 x 155 metres!) were on their way to attack Boer trenches which where expected to be on top of Magerfontein Hill. In a strategic masterpiece the Boer General Koos de la Rey had his men dug trenches in front of the hill. The Highlanders were taken under a fierce and continuous fusillade from invisible positions 400 metres away. Within the first 15 minutes of the battle the advancing British troops lost most of their high ranking officers and were left in the field without orders. During the day the British started several attempts to withdraw their troops in order, which all failed. At about 4:00 pm the British retreat turned into a rout. All soldiers still in the field fled their positions. Around 6:00 pm the Boer forces left their trenches to help the British doctors in their efforts to help the wounded. Although being subjected to constant shelling of the British field guns, the Boer fighters shared their water with the wounded British soldiers. 

On the second day of the battle the British agreed to a Boer offering of a cease fire, so that the last British dead and wounded can be removed. As the Burghers again left their trenches to assist the British doctors a British naval gun opened fire at Boers and British alike - but was soon silenced by Boer artillery. At around 2:00 pm the British forces retreated to their camp at Modder River.

General Koos de la Rey´s strategy of placing positions in front of hills did pay off nicely for the Boers, causing the second lost battle for the British in as many days.

Boer casualties amounted to 71 killed (amongst them the whole Scandinavian corps of 42) and 142 wounded. The British suffered 288 killed, 700 wounded and more than a hundred missing. In addition, several hundred of the surviving kilted Highlanders had to be treated for severe sunburn.


* Colenso * 15th December 1899 

The British “Black Week” was rounded up with the first battle in General Sir Redvers Buller´s attempt to relieve Ladysmith from Boer siege.

The British army at Buller´s disposal was 15.000 soldiers and 44 guns strong (6 infantry brigades with 16 regiments, 1 cavalry brigade with 6 regiments, the Naval artillery with 14 guns and 5 batteries of the Royal Field Artillery). They were opposing approx 4.500 Burghers and their 5 guns. Amongst them the Johannesburg, Middleburg, Boksburg, Soutspansberg, Heidelberg, Krugersdorp and Wakkersstroom commandos and the Swaziland and Johannesburg Police. The Boer forces were led by General Louis Botha - at age 37 the youngest of the Boer generals and successor of Piet Joubert as Commandant-General.

Botha´s strategy was to hold up the advancing British forces through an enormous system of trenches along the Thukela River. The British, in turn, were bringing their troops from Port Durban via Frere to the Thukela line in their effort to relieve the rounded up British garrison of approx 13.000 troops and 7.900 civilians in Ladysmith. Buller had to cross the river and to storm the natural barrier of the Thukela Heights (hills) in order to advance passed the Boer lines.

On 15th December the first attept was made at Colenso. 

At 5:20 am the British Naval guns opened fire at the Boer positions across the river, whereas British field artillery advanced towards the river in an attempt to cross it. Due to the misjudgement of a Colonel CJ Long, the advancing British artillery was in front of the infantry supposed to support them. Long´s orders were precisely followed, which led to them being unlimbered and put up within rifle range of the Boer forces across the river. About 600 metres from the river the British gunners suffered heavy casualties, amongst them colonel Long himself. Under heavy fire the gun crews fled the area, leaving behind 12 field guns within reach of the Boer forces. 

Meanwhile, on the western flank, General AF Hart marched his Irish Brigade in massed quarter columns (see Magersfontein!) in broad daylight towards the enemy positions. He missed the spot where he was supposed to cross the river and the whole brigade was pinned down by Boer rifle fire for the rest of the battle. At around 9:00 am the whole battle was static. General Buller, in an attempt to get a better picture of the battle, was lightly wounded by a Boer shrapnel.

The British army´s codex of never to abandon guns took another terrible toll. The first charge for the relive of the guns was led by a Captain HN Schofield and Lord Robert´s only son, Lieutenant Freddy Roberts. This and the following attempt to safe the guns failed in the rifle fire of the Boer forces from across the river. Freddy Roberts and more than half of the men sent to safe the guns were killed.

At 11:00 am all british troops were in full retreat. At approx 5:00 pm some Burghers crossed the Thukela and captured 10 of the British field guns, with nine ammunition wagons, in full sight of the retreating British troops.

The British lost 143 killed in action, 756 wounded, 240 missing and 38 taken prisoners by the Boers. The Republican forces suffered 7 killed, 30 wounded and one drowned.

The battles of Stormberg, Magersfontein and Colenso marked the socalled “Black Week” with British casualties amounting to 456 killed in action, 1.558 wounded, 710 taken prisoner and 340 missing. 

More comeing soon.........


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## Henk (Feb 8, 2007)

* Spionkop * 23rd - 24th January 1900

For a short time, prior to his failure in the Thukela campaigne and the arrival of Lord Roberts, General Sir Redvers Buller was the highest ranking British officer in South Africa, Commander-in-Chief. Born in 1840, Sir Redvers was very popular with his troops and was awarded the Victoria Cross for his bravery in the Zulu War (1879). His main objective was to relieve Ladysmith and to break through the Boer lines at the Thukela, which were stretched over some 25 kilometres from Ntabamnyana to the south of Vaalkrans. Like at the battle of Colenso, his counterpart on the Boer side was Louis Botha and his handful of men. 

After the battle of Colenso, Buller´s 15.000 men strong army was reinforced by the arrival of the 5th Infantry Division under Lieutenant - General Sir Charles Warren, the hunter of Jack the Ripper in London. Buller decided to put up his headquarter on Mount Alice and stay with 9.000 men on the south side of the Thukela, whilst sending Warren with 15.000 men and 36 guns to cross the Thukela five kilometres upstream at Trichardt´s Drift. The plan was to outflank the Boer positions on the hills and swing around the high ground west of Spionkop.

Late on 16th january 1900, 2.000 British troops crossed the Thukela virtually unopposed, but Warren failed to order an immediate attack on Ntabamnyana which would have given him certain victory. Instead he decided to wait for most of his troops to cross the river as well, which took them until 19th January. When, on the following day he eventually ordered his troops to attack the Boer positions, their forces had grown from a mere 400 men on 16th January to now 1.800 men supported by three guns and one pom-pom. Warren ordered an attack over open field, which gave the Boers free rifle range between 600 to 1.000 metres. The attack was fought off by the Boers, with British losses amounting to 477 men killed or wounded. The Boers suffered 72 casualties.

After this setback, Warren and Buller decided that their way to Ladysmith will have to lead them via the near hill of Spionkop. The reason for this decision was never disclosed. The British were unfamiliar with the terrain and had no idea of what would be awaiting them on the summit. Reconnaissance work was not carried out.

Warren and his senior officers decided to capture Spionkop under the cover of darkness with a force of 1.700 men of the 1st South Lancaster Regiment, 2nd Lancashire Fusiliers, 1st South Lancashire Regiment, Thorneycroft´s Mounted Infantry and half a company of 17th Royal Engineers. On the night of 23rd January, the British troops led by Major-General ERP Woodgate and Lieutenant-Colonel Thorneycroft set off to climb the hill. They reached the summit at approx. 2:00 am on 24th January, which, at that time, was held by 195 Burghers of the Vryheid commando and the German corps. The british charged the Boers off the summit, leaving them in sole control of Spionkop.

After the successful capture of Spionkop, the British started to dig trenches, approximately 300 metres long. As the ground on the summit was rock hard, and most of the more effective trenching tools have been left behind (a tribute to the steep 400 metre climb of Spionkop), the trenches were very shallow and did not offer adequate cover. 


In the meantime word has spread amongst the Boers that the British successfully captured the summit of Spionkop. General Schalk Burger was very pessimistic about the situation and perhaps would not have been able to re-capture the hill without precise orders from General Botha. He ordered a Hendrik Prinsloo to an immediate counter attack with 80 men of the Carolina commando. Further he brought one 75 mm Krupp and a pom-pom on Twin Peaks into action. Fifty Boer fighters were ordered onto Aloe Knoll, a small summit attached to Spionkop some 300 metres away - and with significant strategic value to the Boer sharpshooters. Four guns on Ntabamnyama, one 75 mm Krupp, two 75 mm Creusot and one pom-pom were swung around to face Spion Kop. One more 75 mm Krupp near Botha´s laager was also brought into action. 

Botha ordered more men to Spionkop. Eventually there were approximately 400 Burghers from the Pretoria, Krugersdorp, Johannesburg, Standerton and Carolina commandos, with some help from the volunteers of the German corps. Due to the cover of darkness and mist all these preparations for the counter attack remained undetected by the British.

By around 7:30 am the mist lifted just enough for the British to realize, that their judgement of the area has been poor. They dug the trenches not on the crest of the summit, but around one hundred metres in front of it, allowing the Boers to also establish their forces on top of Spionkop. At some places the positions were only a few metres apart.

When the mist cleared the British, for the first time, became fully aware of the death trap their were in. The accurate fire of the Boer gunners and rifle marksmen from all the surrounding hills took its heavy toll amongst the British troops. Several attacks with bayonets were made by the British, but all were fought off under heavy casualties by the Boer fighters on the summit. For many hours the battle was static, with the superior British forces being pinned down in their shallow trenches. At about 10:00 am General Woodgate was mortally wounded and for a few hours the British officers Thorneycroft, Crofton and Coke all assumed being in charge of the troops on top of Spionkop. Thus adding to the overall confusion. Around 1:00 pm some of the Lancaster Fusiliers surrendered with white handkerchiefs. Boer forces left their trenches to capture the British soldiers, only to be sent back by the charging Thorneycroft shouting at the Boers: “I am the commander here, take your men back to hell, sir. There is no surrender!”

With heavy Gun fire of about seven to ten shells per minute from behind the near Twin Peaks hills, the British suffered an increasing number of casualties as the battle commenced. This was observed by General Buller in his headquarters from across the Thukela. He ordered Major-General Lyttleton to a cavalry attack on Twin Peaks, which was carried out by Major Bewicke-Copley. Twin Peaks was held by only a few Burghers and the British cavalry and artillery attack was a full success. Unfortunately for the British, their own artillery mistook the fleeing Boers for their own troops and stopped their shelling. This signal was mistaken by the British headquarter which called off the successful attack. The Boers returned to their previous positions and continued with their shelling of the British troops on Spionkop.

During the battle, British reinforcements were sent up the hill in a steady flow - bringing the number of troops on the summit to more than 2.000 - in a place that barely offers cover for half that number.

The confusion on the British side was enormous. Warren did not receive updates in chronological order, Thorneycroft, and Coke did not receive any guidance from their superior officer. Concerns grew that the hill cannot be held during the night. At 7:30 pm Thorneycroft decided: “better six battalions safely off the hill than a mop up in the morning”. At 8:15 pm he gave the order to withdraw.

Little did the British know about the casualties suffered by the Boer forces and their growing concerns that the battle was lost. At nightfall the Boers retreated to their laagers and many of them thought that they would have to give up their positions the next day. It was more or less by accident that Boers under the commando of field-cornet JCG Kemp scouted the summit before dawn the next morning, to find that the British troops have left Spionkop. To their surprise they found only dead, wounded and seven lost British soldiers on the summit. As soon as the news was brought to the Burghers waiting in the laagers around Spionkop, they rushed back on to the summit to claim their biggest victory in the war.

Boer casualties amounted to 58 killed and 140 wounded - the Carolina commando suffering the most with 55 killed or wounded out of their total number of 85.

The British lost a total of 1.185 men - with 322 confirmed dead, 563 wounded and 300 missing, most of them being victims of gun shells. 


* The aftermath:*

General Buller was never to recover from this career-blow and was relieved of his position as Commander-in-Chief and succeeded by Lord Roberts. British reinforcements were sent to the Thukela and thrown into the battles of Vaalkrans (5-7th February) and the Thukela Heights (12-28th February 1900). Sir Redvers Buller, now commanding the Natal Field Forces, finally relieved Ladysmith on 28th February. 

General Botha proved that, despite his young age, he was a brave and able Commandant-General. He went on to lead his fine Burgher troops to many a victory in the guerilla stage of the war.

More comeing soon.........


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## HealzDevo (Feb 11, 2007)

Must depend on where you go to school as I can't actually remember studying the Boer War in my school days, which ended in 2001.


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## Wildcat (Feb 12, 2007)

HealzDevo said:


> Must depend on where you go to school as I can't actually remember studying the Boer War in my school days, which ended in 2001.



I was educated in QLD where I grew up. Learnt about the Boer War in history classes.


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## Marcel (Feb 12, 2007)

The boer war was the reason why some of my countrymen had trouble picturing the British as their allies. After all the boeren were from dutch origin. Even the language is still very much alike to dutch. Most of the people realised that the nazi's were still a worse enemy.


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## trackend (Feb 13, 2007)

Marcel said:


> The boer war was the reason why some of my countrymen had trouble picturing the British as their allies. After all the boeren were from dutch origin. Even the language is still very much alike to dutch. Most of the people realised that the nazi's were still a worse enemy.



I dare say Marcel you're right, however my old man said he got on really well the dutch in WW2 special at Walcheran, was treated very well and never felt any animosity towards himself or his mates.


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## Emac44 (Feb 14, 2007)

Now henk I will inform you that the British had an earlier Problem in New Zealand with what is called the Maori wars that began in 1845 and lasted for over 20 to 30 years with periods of treaties and cease fires coming into effect over that period. there were a total of 3 Maori Wars or New Zealand Wars as it become to be known. You contend that the British had problems in South Africa. Which by all means they did. But they pale into insignificance when you compare the Battles in New Zealand with Maori Warriors not only on the North Island but also in the South Island of New Zealand. Now given the size of New Zealand and the population of New Zealand Maoris at the time holding at bay the resources of the British Empire and troops being sent to defeat the Maori's in their stockades in areas of New Zealand this by all accounts is some feat of arms done by a native population not a European Army or Milita of the type. Plus the Maoris did not have the use of artillery that the Boers could and did have. Mostly the arms of the Maoris were muskets and rifles traded previously from British Settlers in the areas concerned. this by all accounts the Maori wars was gurellia in its very exsistence and the use of fortifications by the Maoris which predate the Boer War by nearly 50 years. the Maori War of New Zealand is known as the forgotten war but this produced the only treaty still enforce today signed by the British with a Native Population. Unfortunately for the Boers to the best of my knowledge you may have won significant battles against the British but they the British were truimphant were the Boers didn't at the conclusion of the Boer War and with the introduction of tactics by the British and using other Colonial Troops like the Australians and New Zealanders who were use to being in the Bush and riding in the saddle like the Boers Farmers the Boer war took a more militiaristic turn for the Boers and became a series of losing events from earlier victories that you have already mentioned. And with the failure by the Boers to take seiges like Mafaking and remove the British from strong areas of defence your people had no other choice but to resort to the commando type warfare that the Boers became famous for. However as i have said that was soon counter balanced with other Colonial Troops who were just as skilled as the Boers in South Africa much to the destain from the Boers themselves who realized a little too late that the earlier victories had swung dangerously the other way towards the British in and around 1900 to 1901. A website you may find interesting but there are others Henk The New Zealand Wars Even though the treaty of Vereeningig in May 1902 signed by the Boers and the British it sealed the end of the Orange Free State and the Transvaal and repairations of 3 Millioin Pounds Sterling by the British and self determination in Government in 1907 were just so much gloss and veneer for the Boers for in reality like the Maori Wars and a treaty signed the British Empire still went on with the Industrial Power behind it and nothing that a few rag a muffin farmers of Dutch descend according to the British would stand in the way of the Empire and the eventual goals of that Empire. the Boers didn't comprehend even during the Boer Wars that losses in men and material and even battles and some face by the British could and did were tolerated and treaties signed were a means to an end to the British Empire and the Leaders of that Empire. Henk you can read volumes in those history books of the Boer War and i am sure you do. Now comprehend this the British could afford to lose certain aspects of the Boer War but in the end the Triumph for the British was to maintain their Empire for as long as possible which included in the South African and Rhodesian aspect Gold Silver and Diamond Markets and taking that into consideration did the British in signing the treaty with the Boers to end this war lose. No they didn't nor did the British Government of the day worry extensively about self determination of South Africa in 1907 as South Africa and Rhodesia still remained in the Commonwealth as did New Zealand and India were many wars were fought in India in particular for example the Sepoy Wars etc. Unfortunately Henk. One has to take a more contracted view of the Wars fought in the Empire by the British with other areas within the Empire entirely. the Boer Wars was which there were 2 of them had overall little impact as such on the British as you may believe and think according to Boer Historians. Economically the British won the Boer War and your own Boers lost their emphasis to fight such an Empire which would prevail no matter what occurred. The Maori Wars which were by comparison were long and contracted in New Zealand and a treaty was signed hoiwever this still didn't guaranttee the Maori to self determination as the Boers were seeking and gained. New Zealand still became a province and later a country at the same time in 1907 as South Africa did, but still New Zealand was a Colony of England regardless of the Maori Wars. In other words Henk as far as the British were concerned with Empire. and its a simplistic view you may think but Money Talked and Bullshit Walked for those wars were fought upon economic reasoning not what the Boers or the Maoris were fighting for in retrospectively speaking


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## Marcel (Feb 14, 2007)

trackend said:


> I dare say Marcel you're right, however my old man said he got on really well the dutch in WW2 special at Walcheran, was treated very well and never felt any animosity towards himself or his mates.



Of course this was not the major part of the dutch people, mostly older people who experienced the Boer war. Most of this sentiment was before the war, and most of the people who thought like this were quickly cured from their ideas after experiencing the Nazi regime. I know of some people who joined the NSB (dutch nazi party) for this, but luckily not very much. People who help to free you from the nazis deserve your friendship and gratitude and I think most of the people at Walcheren were very thankful to the british for their part in this.


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## Henk (Feb 14, 2007)

Yes, the British did fight for economic reasons and for power and wealth, but they still got what was coming there way. The British also fought against the ZUlus here and it was great battles and many died in those battles. The Boer war did cost the British government a lot of man power, money and equipment, but like you said all in all it did not have a impact on the EMPIRE.

I think the Britsh should be held responsable for many horrors that occered in their empire and those people they killed all in the name of power and money, but the thing that pissed me off the most is that if you take the things the Nazis did and how the British went on about it it is actualy ironic for one fillen to point finger at a other. I am not saying what the Nazis did was right, but nothing has happend as such or any thing to show that they are sorry. Germany paid years and years for the things that happend in WW2.


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## Marcel (Feb 14, 2007)

I think that counts for most colonial empires. The dutch also did a lot of things in the far east that we're not proud of now, just like the french, the belgian etc. We'll never make up for things done by our ancestors in the past. The only thing we can do now is try to help our former colonies developing and that is what my country does, and probably the British as well.


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## Emac44 (Feb 14, 2007)

So how long do you want reparations to go back to Henk. Back to the Boers or back to whence my ancestors come from in Skye in Scotland. And what happened to the Scottish Clans and such by the English that occurred over a 1000 years. With loss of language Celtic Loss of Religion Loss of self determination as Scotland had its own Parliament that predated that of England. Loss of Monarchy Loss of lands as the Clans had their own lands under a Chieftan Loss of Scottish heritage and the rape of women from Prima Noctua which was first night with any Scottish Woman on her wedding night by English Lords introduced by Edward the 1st LongShanks in the 12th century. Loss of Education as Scotland had already unversities and seats of learning prior to the invasion from England. Just how far do you want to go back Henk. Because if you only want to go as far back as the Boers or Maoris, what about the Scots Irish and Welsh who suffered under the English as well for hundreds of years. Don't these races deserve compensation Henk or are you just singular in your aspect. Problem is Henk you can not transpire the guilt of a few on the rest of a country. In other words to henk if you really want compensation from the British for what they did during the Boer war etc. then are not the Kaffirs of South Africa equally entitled to compensation from the Dutch Government as well and the impact Boers had on South African Negros before the British even set foot in South Africa. And as for the Germans during WW2 they made no secret of mass murder and execution of what they considered lesser races or even Dutch men and women who fought in the resistance movements in Holland. Or similar in France Russia Belguim Norway Greece Italy or any other European country that was occupied. except for the Concentration camps in South Africa which by all means is a black spot on the British Empire Germany set about under the Nazis to eradicated any one who was racially impure according to them. there is a big difference to experimentation preformed by the Germans in Auzwitz in Poland on Jewish or Gypsy Children Twins then to what occurred to Boers in South Africa. Even though I admit that it was a crime what the British had done where is the more Criminal action lies with what occurred in Europe from 1935 to 1945 by the Germans. Or isn't that important to you Henk as it occurred in Europe 70 odd years ago


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## Emac44 (Feb 14, 2007)

Marcel said:


> Of course this was not the major part of the dutch people, mostly older people who experienced the Boer war. Most of this sentiment was before the war, and most of the people who thought like this were quickly cured from their ideas after experiencing the Nazi regime. I know of some people who joined the NSB (dutch nazi party) for this, but luckily not very much. People who help to free you from the nazis deserve your friendship and gratitude and I think most of the people at Walcheren were very thankful to the british for their part in this.



Of course the question is Marcel. Where did the Dutch Monarchy go to during WW2 and with whom did they shelter with whilst Holland was occupied by the Germans and at the liberation of Holland by the Allies. Which group of Allies liberate Holland as early as they could? So much for old animosities Marcel


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## plan_D (Feb 15, 2007)

There was no crime in the Boer Wars. There were no rules; hence no crime. Britain need not apologise for anything it has done in the past; because all those alive today were not alive back then. 

The many horrors in the British Empire were all a product of their time. If you want people to start apologising for their Empires; you better take claim against the Greeks, Romans, Carthaginians, Russians, Mongolians, Chinese, Aztecs, Indians, Mayans, Persians, Turks, Austrians, Germans, Spanish, Portugese, French, Dutch, Danish, Norweigens and many-many more. 

If Britain were as harsh as the Romans - you wouldn't be complaining now. You'd all be dead or cleaning my toilet. If you got any problem with what Britain did over a century ago; then keep it to yourself 'cos you'll be fighting a losing argument. 

Product of our age; and we could have slaughtered all our colonies if we wanted. Be THANKFUL that we didn't enslave your ass and turn you into cotton pickers.


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## pbfoot (Feb 15, 2007)

Emac44 said:


> Of course the question is Marcel. Where did the Dutch Monarchy go to during WW2 and with whom did they shelter with whilst Holland was occupied by the Germans and at the liberation of Holland by the Allies. Which group of Allies liberate Holland as early as they could? So much for old animosities Marcel


the answer to all the above questions is Canada .


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## bomber (Feb 15, 2007)

Henk could you please explain to us how the Boers fought their war, ie the tactics of the day they employed ?


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## plan_D (Feb 15, 2007)

Sorry, PBFoot, I didn't realise the British XXX Corps and 1st Airborne Division was ALL Canadian. I didn't realise that 21st Army Group was made up nothing but Canadians. I'm glad to see the British didn't have to fight in Holland.


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## trackend (Feb 15, 2007)

Henk said:


> I think the Britsh should be held responsable for many horrors that occered in their empire and those people they killed all in the name of power and money, but the thing that pissed me off the most is that if you take the things the Nazis did and how the British went on about it it is actualy ironic for one fillen to point finger at a other. I am not saying what the Nazis did was right, but nothing has happend as such or any thing to show that they are sorry. Germany paid years and years for the things that happend in WW2.



Henk up till this point I found your artical very interesting but comparing the British too the Nazis even given the awfull things that where done during the empire days is a bit over the top so get stuffed. Yes the British invented concentration camps and a terrible thing it was but they did not stuff babies into gas F**king chambers by the thousand or slaughter 6 million plus people on the grounds of religion ,mental state, or sexual orientation or kill 20 million Russians. what ever my great great grandfather did it is not for me to have to appologise for, as it is not for those of German or Japanese decent to ask for forgiveness what their forbares did.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 15, 2007)

Gotta agree with you guys. The modern people of today should not have to answer for what there forfathers did generations ago.


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## Marcel (Feb 15, 2007)

Emac44 said:


> Of course the question is Marcel. Where did the Dutch Monarchy go to during WW2 and with whom did they shelter with whilst Holland was occupied by the Germans and at the liberation of Holland by the Allies. Which group of Allies liberate Holland as early as they could? So much for old animosities Marcel



Exactly, in times of wars you'll quickly know who your real enemy is. As I said, the ones with those ideas were quickly cured and the royal family had a firm grip of reality.



pbfoot said:


> the answer to all the above questions is Canada .




Actually, only a part of the royal family was in Canada. Some stayed in London.



DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Gotta agree with you guys. The modern people of today should have to answer for what there for fathers did generations ago.



Part of the wealth we have here in Europe came from our colonies, so the least we can do is help our former colonies to get a higher standard of living themselves.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 15, 2007)

Sorry I had to edit that. In my post I said they should have to answer for what there fathers did but what I really mean is they should *not* have to.


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## pbfoot (Feb 15, 2007)

plan_D said:


> Sorry, PBFoot, I didn't realise the British XXX Corps and 1st Airborne Division was ALL Canadian. I didn't realise that 21st Army Group was made up nothing but Canadians. I'm glad to see the British didn't have to fight in Holland.


Would it be more politically correct to say the Canadians were in the majority


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## Emac44 (Feb 16, 2007)

No one is denying Canadian troops were not part of XXX Corps but so there were British Scots and Irish Regiments in XXX Corps PB. and as for 1st Airborne Pb they were mostly Brits to my knowledge. And the British 21st Army group was made up of Canadian British Irish Scots and Welsh Regiments. But the Dutch Monarchy first sheltered in England parts of the family moving to Canada at a later stage. but they were not the only Monarchy to shelter in England during WW2 Pb, My point was to Marcel that old suspicions and animosities were forgotten due to a common enemy that had to be fought


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## Emac44 (Feb 16, 2007)

In other words Do not visit the sins of the fathers onto the children. Which I was trying to point out to Henk about blaming the British for things that occurred 100 plus years ago in South Africa.. We can not blame the today's generation of Germans Italians or Japanese on the things their grandparents did 70 years ago. It is pointless to even try to do that. As per the examples I said to Henk about what occurred in Scotland Ireland and Wales over a 1000 years.


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## plan_D (Feb 16, 2007)

It's not a case of poltically correct, PB. There were more British troops in the 21st Army Group than Canadians. To be so deluded as to believe it was solely the Canadians that liberated Holland is a smudge on your respectability. 

I'm all for national pride, and I know Canadians took a lot on their shoulders in Holland. And great respect to them for doing that; but just keep the facts straight. Americans were in Holland too; the 82nd and 101st Airborne for a start.


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## Marcel (Feb 16, 2007)

plan_D said:


> It's not a case of poltically correct, PB. There were more British troops in the 21st Army Group than Canadians. To be so deluded as to believe it was solely the Canadians that liberated Holland is a smudge on your respectability.
> 
> I'm all for national pride, and I know Canadians took a lot on their shoulders in Holland. And great respect to them for doing that; but just keep the facts straight. Americans were in Holland too; the 82nd and 101st Airborne for a start.



Yes you're right, but they only liberated the south during Market Garden and then went into germany in 1945. The Canadians liberated the north, above the river rhine. But they took along also quite a number of Poles as well. The town I was born, for instance was liberated by the Poles. Even Belgian paratroopers were there. But fair is fair, the canadians took the biggest part of it.


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## plan_D (Feb 16, 2007)

I haven't denied that the Canadians took the largest part of Holland.


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## pbfoot (Feb 16, 2007)

All I'm stating is that 1st Canadian Army including Poles and Ibelieve the 51st Lowland division did the bulk of the liberation . If you visit Canada almost every town in this area has or had a Polish legion comprised of Polish Veterans who emigrated to Canada. I'm not denying the participation of the Brits nor the US . the participation of the Brits in the Breskins pocket and clearing of the Scheldt Estuary is not to be minimized


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## Emac44 (Feb 16, 2007)

I think we are getting of track here. We agree that all the Allies played their parts in liberating Europe in general. Not really something we should not be splitting hairs about and the thread is about Anglo Boer war not 2nd World War


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## Marcel (Feb 18, 2007)

plan_D said:


> I haven't denied that the Canadians took the largest part of Holland.



I didn't think you did 

Okay Emac, you're right, let's get beack to the topic. Henk doe you have more information about this war?


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## bomber (Feb 20, 2007)

Has Henk left ?

If not would he please answer my question.

regards

Simon


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## Emac44 (Feb 21, 2007)

No Bomber saw a post from Henk today. He has been busy at work. Sends his regrets not being able to be in forum


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## Henk (Feb 21, 2007)

Ok guys, I will go on with the argument about my thoughts about the British government of the time in a while. Bomber I am sorry mate for not aswering you qestion I get the PC for myself late at night after my mom finnished with her bull.
I must firstly go over my stuff to tell you correctly the tactics they used during the early stages of the war. Sorry but I have only now again started with part of history and are not up to scratch with it.

Do not worry I will come back to you guys.


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## genkideskan (Feb 23, 2007)

Hello,

there is big trouble in South Africa because of a very popular song called

De la Rey - one of the commanding generals in the Boer war.

And of course the very emotional video - check this out




_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGh4lA1S7yc_



You cant bring the song out of your mind - 

Bok van Blerk reaches double platinum for that song






Afrikaans 

Op 'n berg in die nag 
lê ons in die donker en wag 
in die modder en bloed lê ek koud, 
streepsak en reën kleef teen my 

en my huis en my plaas tot kole verbrand sodat hulle ons kan 
vang, 
maar daai vlamme en vuur brand nou diep, diep binne my. 

De La Rey, De La Rey sal jy die Boere kom lei? 
De La Rey, De La Rey 
Generaal, generaal soos een man, sal ons om jou val. 
Generaal De La Rey. 

Oor die Kakies wat lag, 
'n handjie van ons teen 'n hele groot mag 
en die kranse lê hier teen ons rug, 
hulle  dis verby. 

Maar die hart van 'n Boer lê dieper en wyer, hulle gaan 
dit nog sien. 
Op 'n perd kom hy aan, die Leeu van die Wes Transvaal. 

De La Rey, De La Rey sal jy die Boere kom lei? 
De La Rey, De La Rey 
Generaal, generaal soos een man, sal ons om jou val. 
Generaal De La Rey. 

Want my vrou en my kind lê in 'n kamp en vergaan, 
en die Kakies se murg loop oor 'n nasie wat weer op sal 
staan. 

De La Rey, De La Rey sal jy die Boere kom lei? 
De La Rey, De La Rey 
Generaal, generaal soos een man, sal ons om jou val. 
Generaal De La Rey. 

English 

On a mountain in the night 
I lie in the dark and wait 
In the mud and the blood 
As cold rain clings to my pack 

And my house and my farm were burnt to the ground so they 
could capture our land 
But the flame and the fire that once burned now burn 
profundly within my heart. 

De La Rey, De La Rey come lead the Boer 
De La Rey, De La Rey 
General, General united with you we shall rise or we fall. 
General De La Rey. 

Against the soldiers that laugh 
A handful of us against an army of them 
With the cliffs of the mountains against our backs 
They think they can run us down 

But the heart of a Boer is deeper and wider than the enemy 
can see 
On a horse he has come, The Lion of West Transvaal. 

De La Rey, De La Rey come lead the Boer 
De La Rey, De La Rey 
General, General united with you we shall rise or we fall. 
General De La Rey. 

Because my wife and my child are forced into prison to die, 
As the enemies overruns us again, we are forced to take a 
stand 

De La Rey, De La Rey come lead the Boer 
De La Rey, De La Rey 
General, General united with you we shall rise or we fall


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## Marcel (Feb 23, 2007)

It's always nice to read Afrikaans, it's almost dutch but not quite.


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## Gnomey (Feb 23, 2007)

I've read it was more like Flemish  but yes it is based off Dutch.


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## Marcel (Feb 23, 2007)

Yeah, Flemish is als a sort of ancient dutch, just like Afrikaans. So I'm not surprised it looks like flemish


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## Emac44 (Feb 25, 2007)

You bloody Dutchmen are lucky I can not find a downloadable version of Soldiers of the Queen. However this song was sung prior to the Boer War in South Africa






_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz9_ELpil9w_


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## Marcel (Feb 25, 2007)

Hmmm, a lot of warrior songs from both sides


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## Emac44 (Feb 26, 2007)

Marcel I am Scottish by ancestery. I can give you heaps of War Music if you want. But really can't see the sense of doing that. Be a case of one up manship and brinkmanship. Gets away from the debate and possibley causes bad blood. So saying that lets get back to the debate ok


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## Marcel (Feb 26, 2007)

Oh, I was not annoyed or offended in any sense, I also don't particular like te text of the Afrikaner song, I just said I like the language. Hope you weren't offended either, 'cause that was not my intention and I hope not from the others as well. Let's wait for Henk to post some more on the boer war.


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## Emac44 (Feb 27, 2007)

No I am not offened at all Marcel. I can imagine Henk being proud Boer got no problem with it. But he has to remember that my country men went to fight the Boer. Some things were done Marcel which left a black mark on Australians fighting in South Africa. I suggest if you get a chance view the video tape movie or dvd of Breaker Morant to understand what I mean. One thing though something good came out of the Boer War. Maybe a benefit if you grew into a family like mine. Boy Scout Movement had its origins around Mafaking. Lord Baden Powell founder of the Boy Scout Movement. Henk might not agree but that is ok


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## Joe2 (Feb 28, 2007)

This is probably the only thing I know about the Boer war, and it might not even be true, that a British commander was shot by a 10-year old boy


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## Emac44 (Mar 1, 2007)

Well joe maybe he did maybe he didn't. But I know one thing on Baden Powell's grave is a circle of stones with one stone in the middle of the circle. In bush orienteering it means I have gone home


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## Henk (Mar 6, 2007)

Hi guys I am so sorry but stuff have been busy at work with the launch of the PS3 this month and new games and the owner selling to the manager and working a bit over time because the other guy is away for two weeks, but it does not bother me at all except that I miss the site.

Yes the ANC government called the De la Rey song racist and against the blacks and that it is political, they do not play it anymore in public because of that, but if the former deputy president sings a song bring my machine gun or if the blacks sing kill the farmer kill the Boer they say nothing. F*ck them.

Lovely song hey genkideskan? It brought a great proud back to the young Afrikaans speaking people and it make them thus proud of who they are and stand up against the ANC government not to try and wipe out the Afrikaans culture.

There are very big rumours that Nelson Mandella is not at all in a good shape and that he might die and the wight people in South Africa fear that the blacks might attack them. Ag ja.

I am not at the moment at home so do not have my facts on the Boer war but will do that tomorrow.


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## Marcel (Mar 9, 2007)

Hmmm,ja, Didn't like the txt tho, doesn't sound like trying to get along with each other and trying to get one united S.Afrika. Too bad. Mandela is not in a good shape? The guy must be a 100 years old or something.


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## Emac44 (Mar 14, 2007)

Henk I have never really trusted the ANC nor have I thought Mandella was what we Aussies call ridgey didge because old Winnie was as bent and corrupt as they came. If the Inkarta Zulus had problems with ANC then something was not quiet right. It wasn't all what was suppose to have been in the old Soweto riots back in the 1980s Henk that the media protrayed of the Old Afrikaaner Govt and by judging what is occuring in Zimbawae under Morgabe it bloody stinks. Have a few mates at work who come from Rhodesia as it was known then. To say the least they are ed about events back home.

And talking about Morgabe. Last few days have been amazing Henk. Will Mobeki do something about what is occuring under Morgabe or sit on his hands and hopes it goes away. I have literally heard nothing from the South African Govt about the human rights abuses committed by Morgabe in Zimbawae. It is especially disturbing when you see the opposition democratic leader being beaten to a bloody pulp on a peaceful demonstration. And what does Morgabe says, Threatens more hardline action and celebrates his ****ing 83rd birthday with cake whilst his nation is falling apart around his ears. Australia and other Commonwealth Nations wants to take this to the UN but it will get watered down and pissed out the door like other UN bullshit. Australia has said it doesn't want to have economic sanctions imposed as it will harm the population more in Zimbawae then bloody Morgabe. So what is South Africa doing Henk. I know its not you personally Henk so do not take it as such ok. Just asking what is South Africa's stance on Zimbawae problems


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## Henk (Mar 20, 2007)

The ANC will never do anything to Mogabe, he is their buddy who helped them during apartheid and the only thing Mbeki said is that it is inhumane and wrong blah blah blah....... The fact is that what was portrayed in the media in other countries during the Apartheid years were bull. The fact is that what will you do if they were burning down anything they could, let bombs go off and kill many people and just act like animals? The thing I must say is that either way if you were black, White, coulerd or anything else you were affraid of the cops, they did not take any sh*t and there wil law and order and if you killed you will die to. Now the criminals have more rights than the people on the outside and they become even greater criminals in prison that on the outside.

The whole situation here so bad that everything is slowly going down and now you cant sell your farm without asking the government if they want the farm or else you can not sell it. The ANC gets votes because they were the first black government after apartheid and thus the blacks stand by their side. I worked on a election and there was the representative of the ANC and she started to get on my nerves and I told her why does she vote for them. She said they care. Ya right, their way to fight crime is more corrupt than anything else.

SA are screwed, the people in the parliament are corrupt, the police are corrupt, the health department does not know what they are doing, Justice is way beyond the point of recovery, Home affairs are some of the most corrupt than anything else, prisons are 200% overcrowded, streets are unsafe ( they robbed two of my friends now this month and it was not in dangerous areas ), work is very scarce even more for white people, you get the salt rubbed into your wounds every day about apartheid and because you are white. I can carry on but geez it just makes me even more frustrated and mad. We are sick of this, but I love my country for what the people who made it what it is and did a lot for it and it is home, I was born here, my family fought for it and thus I will die here.


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## Emac44 (Mar 21, 2007)

Can understand that Henk. By the way I have heard similar remarks about South Africa before that you are making. Look henk I do not trust what the media says that everything in SA is nice and rosey. Looking at Zimbawae makes the media look daft when it comes to SA in comparison. As I thought Mobeki will do **** all about Morgabi as I suspected. Question is this Henk how do the Zulus feel about the ANC Govt of SA?


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## Henk (Mar 24, 2007)

Emac44 said:


> Can understand that Henk. By the way I have heard similar remarks about South Africa before that you are making. Look henk I do not trust what the media says that everything in SA is nice and rosey. Looking at Zimbawae makes the media look daft when it comes to SA in comparison. As I thought Mobeki will do **** all about Morgabi as I suspected. Question is this Henk how do the Zulus feel about the ANC Govt of SA?



The Zulus hate the xhoza people, most of the ANC, but the thing is that the deputy pres Jacob Zuma is a Zulu. In Africa power means everything and if they have it they abuse it. Botswana is one of the few where the things are going more or less smooth.

I do not know why it is like it and why they make their own kind suffer just for power and money. The Apartheid government were not black but they did not abuse the non black people or let eveyone suffer, but they still did some things that were not right.

I know we will have big time truble here and it will be a cival war and it will bring up stuff the world never thought of happening. The ANC gov do not like the song about general De la Rey, because it makes the Afrikaans people in SA feel proud of who they are and will not let anyone tell them otherwise and that is why they are trying to keep the song of the air.


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## Emac44 (Mar 27, 2007)

Henk said:


> The Zulus hate the xhoza people, most of the ANC, but the thing is that the deputy pres Jacob Zuma is a Zulu. In Africa power means everything and if they have it they abuse it. Botswana is one of the few where the things are going more or less smooth.
> 
> I do not know why it is like it and why they make their own kind suffer just for power and money. The Apartheid government were not black but they did not abuse the non black people or let eveyone suffer, but they still did some things that were not right.
> 
> I know we will have big time truble here and it will be a cival war and it will bring up stuff the world never thought of happening. The ANC gov do not like the song about general De la Rey, because it makes the Afrikaans people in SA feel proud of who they are and will not let anyone tell them otherwise and that is why they are trying to keep the song of the air.



Can see why Henk why ANC Govt would despise De le Rey but wasn't it more aimed at the British then ANC? Or is that how I viewed it? But one can not help thinking this Henk. Every African Nation that gained independance from a former Colonial Government whether it be English German Dutch Belgium French etc etc. Each and every one of those African Nations have had or still going through internal and external strife and problems from civil war to near genocide of population to high crime rates murder rape and economic failures. Are the former Colonial Masters to blame? In some cases yes but for how long does the former Colonial Masters have to bear the guilt on something they have no control over now Henk? The question or maybe its not such a question but a statement. I do believe some Africans still believe in the Tribal System of the past before the Colonial Masters ever showed up in Africa. These Africans have no concept of self determination or government that we have Henk and they act accordingly. Some may think this is a racial slur. I am trying not to be racists but a realist in some aspects and think to myself the Negro of Africa can not control his own Tribal Processes any more than a drug addict controls his thirst for illicit drugs. They the African Negoes have not the foggiest idea about Government or Democracy and how it operates or how it should operate for the benefit of all and not just a select quote of the same tribe Henk who benefits because their tribal boss is in power etc. Old saying absolute power corrupts absolutely. Can you imagine the bleeding hearts reading this statement and they would say I am a racists etc. I am not or try not to be to best of my ability. But the experiment of Negro African Self Government has proved a failure all over Africa as a whole and millions have died because of it Henk


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## Henk (Mar 30, 2007)

I understand mate and now they have raied the feul price again and it is the real bad how much they adjust it and the police have become so bad and corrupt that the do what they want and they cover for each other and will not let anyone get in their way.

The song of De la Rey is like a story and to tell the Afrikaans people in SA about their history and how proud they should be of it. It is not against the British and there is nothing in it about blacks, the ANC or any of their idiotic bull. They are taking over all the Afrikaans Universaties and the Afrikaans speaking schools. They have their own schools and higher education instatutions why take ours over.

Botswana does not have this bull and their gov are well run and the law is the law and will be upheld or you will get into a lot of truble if you do not. 

Crime is becomeing a national sport, corruption is daily live and just plain worthless is in their being when it comes to the ANC gov. Only thing we can do is pray for better days to come.


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## Emac44 (Apr 4, 2007)

Sorry Henk. I didn't respond before this. I just saw the Del ray tape in a different light and viewed it differently ok. But putting that to one side Henk. as I said I see that African Nations are run on a Tribal Basis and nothing can change my opinion on that. Most of those African Countries were former Colonies of the English and are Commonwealth Nations because of it. yet time and time again you see African Nations embroiled in civil wars internal strife corrupt governments violence towards its own populations via governmental mishandling. And above all crack pot vicious dictators like Idi Amin during the 1980s for example. Or as I said Robert Morgabe. I have no faith in dictators like Morgabe and see him one step down from the native murderous regime he controls. He talks independance of Zimbawae. And imprisons or abuses any one who doesn't conform to his ideas of power. Quiet frankly Henk if I had my way I would ban Zimbawae of all sporting world wide events as the same that happened to South Africa under the Afrikaaner Govt. I never agreed that South Africa was banned by the way Henk. Saw it as bullshit politics in sport etc. I hate hypocracy Henk. But also I didn't agree totally what the former South African Govt did either under Aparthied etc. But my own country had White Australia Policy during same time. Sometimes think we should have it back in some degrees and keep certain religious ideologly based groups out of Australia. And you thought I meant Muslims. you are right I did mean bloody Muslims. I was never to good at being politically correct


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## bomber (Apr 11, 2007)

Emac44 said:


> Most of those African Countries were former Colonies of the English and are Commonwealth Nations because of it.



British.... British colonies.... British Empire.

As a decendant of a Prisoner Of Mother England, shouldn't you know better ?



Simon


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## Emac44 (Apr 11, 2007)

bomber said:


> British.... British colonies.... British Empire.
> 
> As a decendant of a Prisoner Of Mother England, shouldn't you know better ?
> 
> ...



Simon,
Just because you still live next door to France and you are imprisioned by the EU to pay taxes shouldn't you know better and immigrated years ago to one of those former colonies. New Zealand still excepts poms Canada might as well but as for Australia lets see. Hmmmmmhow much money you got on you mate


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## bomber (Apr 12, 2007)

Emac44 said:


> Simon,
> Just because you still live next door to France and you are imprisioned by the EU to pay taxes shouldn't you know better and immigrated years ago to one of those former colonies. New Zealand still excepts poms Canada might as well but as for Australia lets see. Hmmmmmhow much money you got on you mate



Spent a year backpacking, took my $18k Aus to Westpack bank in Brisbane, the bank manager turns up in his shorts looking at me from the corner of his eyes when I said I want to open an account.... He asked me how much I'd like to initially deposit and once I'd told him it's surprising how polite people can suddenly become..

I've seen all of Aus, missed British pubs... oh there's a few nice ones, theme British pubs, like the 'dog...something' in Melbourne but on the whole as a 20 year old I enjoyed 'our' nighlife...

Now that I'm 42, it's another matter.

I guess I'll just have to wait till my pension and then emigrate 

Now if Pete Jackson would get in touch I'd come help him make some Lancs in New Zealand... see a few family...


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## plan_D (Apr 12, 2007)

I've heard the night-life in Australia and New Zealand is pretty dire, but never been to either and would love to visit. I'm hope, and this is hope, that at some point I can move to Australia for a couple of years when I get my JAR 66 license - and I will get it!!!


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## wulf190a (May 10, 2007)

Henk, I am surprised you didn't mention Majuba, but then I am just a soutie.


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## Henk (May 10, 2007)

Yes, Majuba was a great battle if you take it from the Boers side but a great loss for the UK and not good for morale booster in the UK Army. The funny thing is that the Boers crept up the mountain with their rifles and shot at the British army on top of the mountain and thus cept on moving and won the battle with the Scotish troops running down the mountain in fear.


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## Njaco (May 19, 2007)

Just sneakin in to add to the thread. I have a book called "Military Blunders" by Saul David that lists two Boer battles as blunders. One that caught my eye was under heading "Unfit to Command" and reads:

"The Battle of Spion Kop on January 24, 1900 should never have been fought. That it was, and that it ended in unnescessary defeat for the numerically superior British was largely thanks to Lt.-General Sir Charles Warren, arguably the most incompetent British commander of the Whole Second Boer War of 1899-1902."

Harsh words.

Also found this from this website:

Facts about the Anglo-Boer War

Winston Churchill, was a war correspondent who went on to become Prime Minister of Britain. 

Mahatma Gandhi, was a stretcher-bearer for British forces, became the icon for non-violent protest.

Churchill escaped captivity and had a huge price put on his head by the Boers.

I've always been interested in this war especially after the mild support given England during the Zulu Wars shortly before the First Boer war. I may be correct in saying this was England's last major war fought for a colony. All others since (Boxer Rebellion, WWI, WWII, Iraq, etc.) were conflicts outside the politics of colonies.

I'll go away now


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## Henk (May 19, 2007)

Thanks mate for your contrubtion and yes that battle was a great loss for the Uk forces. The fact was that the Boer forces were great when it came to the trenshes and they used it to its full capacity to keep the English away. Anything you like to ad is great and if you have a Question just ask mate would be glad to help.


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## Njaco (May 21, 2007)

Thanks for the kind words Henk. I'm more interested in the Zulu Wars but any of the Queen's scrimishes are of interest. The Boer Wars were always puzzling to me for they were comrades and enemies in such a short time. Unless thats only one side as sometimes I suspect The Boers only tolerated the English until they stepped on their toes. I'm also fascinated with Churchill and along with Sudan this was a building chapter of his life.


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## Njaco (May 22, 2007)

Just found this neat little info site;

Small Arms of the Boer War

*Small Arms of the Boer War*

Prior to the American Civil War in 1861, armies throughout the world were equipped with single-shot rifles. On one occasion during the Civil War, a unit of the Union Army, equipped with magazine rifles, beat off the attack of a regimental sized force armed with single shot rifles. In 1877, the Turks, equipped with Winchester repeating rifles again successfully demonstrated the advantage of the magazine rifle when they successfully repulsed mass attacks by the Russians at the Battle of Plevna. On each occasion the rapid rate of fire of the magazine rifle won the day. Soon most of the armies of Europe adopted the magazine rifle. Germany was the first nation to fully re-equip but pending the results of trials with smokeless powder the .433 inch Mauser Rifle, weighing 10lb 4oz was adapted to take a magazine.
It was then realized that if the advantage of rapid fire was to be fully achieved the size of the bullet would have to be reduced, in preference to increasing the payload of the rifleman, to allow him to carry more rounds.
In 1887, the British Army issued the .303-inch Lee-Metford Mark I Rifle as a replacement for the .45-inch Martini Henry Mark III issued in 1871 and the .402-inch Enfeld Martini Rifle issued in 1886; the accompanying bayonet had a 12-inch blade and weighed 15oz; the magazine held eight rounds each having a brass cartridge and being filled with 70 grains of fine black powder. In 892, the Lee-Metford Mark I was issued and in 1898, he year prior to the Boer War, the Lee-Metford Mark II Rifle was issued to the British Army. The latter two rifles had cordite filled rounds. In 1900, the Lee-Enfield Magazine Rifle Mark I was produced. It had a detachable 10-round magazine box. It was made available for colonial troops fairly readily but as the British Army had been re-equipped with the Lee-Metford Mark II, the latter was the personal weapon for the British infantry soldier in South Africa.
In 1897, the British cavalry were issued with the .303-inch Lee-Enfield Carbine Mark I. The carbine weighed 7lb 7oz against the 9 1/4lb of the Lee-Enfield Rifle; the backsight was scaled to 2,000 yards against the 2,800 yards of the rifle.
Meanwhile, in 1889 in Germany, the Mauser Rifle superseded the converted Mauser. This rifle weighed 9lb 8oz, had a calibre of .315 inches. It was fitted with a 5-round magazine filled by pressing the rounds from the clip.
Experience in the Boer War led Britain to adopt the European system for loading in bundles of five rounds. The Lee-Metford Mark II Rifle was converted to this system in 1902 and in the same year the Lee-Enfield Rifle using the same technique was issued.
In 1899, the British Army adopted the Maxim Automatic Machine Gun. It was a water cooled .303-inch weapon with a rate of fire of 450 rounds per minute. When filled, it weighed about 70lb. A converted Maxim Machine Gun was adopted for service too. It fired a 1lb percussion fused shell. It was known to the troops as the "Pom Pom". Both weapons were used extensively for the Boer War.


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## Henk (Jun 4, 2007)

Great info mate.


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## Emac44 (Jun 12, 2007)

Njaco said:


> Thanks for the kind words Henk. I'm more interested in the Zulu Wars but any of the Queen's scrimishes are of interest. The Boer Wars were always puzzling to me for they were comrades and enemies in such a short time. Unless thats only one side as sometimes I suspect The Boers only tolerated the English until they stepped on their toes. I'm also fascinated with Churchill and along with Sudan this was a building chapter of his life.



If you are interested in other WARS that the British Government was involved in I suggest you go beyond the 2 Boer Wars. Look for information on the Maori War in New Zealand. Also the Sepoy Rebellions in India. Opium Wars in China just to name a few that you may find interesting. Also the Malayan Campaign. Kenyan Conflict Yeman Conflict and the Suez Canal Conflict in the 20th Century hope that helps you Njaco


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## Njaco (Jun 13, 2007)

Thanks Emac, been looking at the wars you mentioned. I have a book, "Queen Victoria's Little Wars" by Byron Farwell which has led me to the Crimean War, Churchill in the Sudan, etc. I get interested in the ceremonies of current British units and where they came from - certain days Sgts take over command of some regiments in honor of this battle, this flag is drapped to the left on this day for that battle. Really interesting. Love figuring out tradition.


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## Emac44 (Jun 21, 2007)

Njaco there is one British Regiment that wears cap badges on either side of their caps. I think its the Gloscesters Regiment. Don't quote me on it however. But it seems the Gloscesters had to face in both direction in battle hence the 2 Badges on their caps. I think it was in North Africa Tel-a-Kirb not sure if that is spelled correctly or not but it was during the 19th Century where the Regiment was being attacked front and rear of their line etc. Many British Regiments have their own traditions. As for NCO's taking over the command of the regiment for the day etc. That occurs in other Commonwealth Military as well or it use to it may have changed. Its an old tradition dating back many years. Not always associated with battle honours etc.


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## Njaco (Jun 26, 2007)

from Gloucestershire Regiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Gloucestershire Regiment was an infantry regiment of the British Army. Nicknamed "The Glorious Glosters", the regiment carried more battle honours on their colours than any other British Army line regiment.

The origins of the regiment lie in the regiment formed in Portsmouth in 1694 by Colonel John Gibson. This was named the 28th Regiment of Foot in 1751. And renamed in 1782 as the 28th (North Gloucestershire) Regiment of Foot. After the Childers reforms, the regiment amalgamated with the 61st (South Gloucestershire) Regiment of Foot to form the two-battalion Gloucestershire Regiment on 1 July 1881.

The regiment saw active service in the Second Boer War from 1899 to 1902. World War I began in August and during the course of the war, the regiment raised 25 battalions, seeing service on the Western Front, Gallipoli, Macedonia, the Middle East and Italy. World War II began after Germany's invasion of Poland on 1 September, Britain, France, and its Allies declaring war on Germany on 3 September. The 2nd battalion was involved in the Battle of France after Germany's invasion of the Low Countries on 8 May 1940, taking part in the Dunkirk evacuation. The 1st battalion saw active service in Burma against Japanese forces. The 1st battalion was later involved in the North-West Europe campaign after the invasion of Normandy on 6 June 1944.

The regiment saw heavy fighting in the Korean War. After their actions at Gloster Hill during the Battle of the Imjin River in 1951, following which the regiment was awarded the United States Distinguished Unit Citation, the regiment gained the nickname "The Glorious Glosters", for its heroic stand against overwhelming Chinese forces.

The regiment was one of the British Army's most battle honoured units, and amalgamated with the Duke of Edinburgh's Royal Regiment in 1994 to form the 1st Battalion, The Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Regiment.

The regimental archives and memorabilia of The Glosters as well as their antecedents, The 28th and 61st Regiments of Foot are held by The Soldiers of Gloucestershire Museum which is located within the Historic Docks in Gloucester and available on-line at The Soldiers of Gloucestershire Museum.

In March 2005, it was announced that this regiment would merge with the Devonshire and Dorset Regiment to form the 1st Battalion, The Rifles.

from Gloucestershire Regiment

The Gloucestershire Regiment 28th/61st. have acquired several nicknames during their long history, The Old Braggs, Sliver Tailed Dandies, The Flowers of Toulouse but the one that has endured and is now recognised as the official nickname of the Royal Gloucestershire Berkshire Wiltshire Regiment is the 'Slashers'. Today the Battalion's Rugby Soccer teams are identified as the 'Slashers'. Hence when choosing a title for our website contacts page, introduced to unite former members of the Regiment with friends with whom they served, we had no hesitation in calling it 'Slashers Reunited'.

So how did the nickname 'Slashers' originate?

It dates back in fact to 1764 when the 28th found themselves on garrison duties in Montreal during a bitter Canadian winter. A certain Thomas Walker, a wealthy City merchant and magistrate was making life for the 28th and their families very difficult. He opposed the military government at every opportunity and being a local magistrate used his position to harass the soldiers unfairly.

The winter was severe and with no barrack accommodation in Montreal, he ensured that the officers and men were given the poorest and most uncomfortable quarters available. Soldiers and their families were regularly being evicted from their billets into the bitter winter cold for no good reason. 

Matters were eventually brought to a head. The men of the 28th had had enough and decided amongst themselves that it was time to deal with Mr. Thomas Walker. 

On the evening of the 6th December 1764 a group of men armed and disguised stormed into Walkers home whilst he was sitting at the dinner table with family and guests. The party scattered in fear of their lives and Walker tried in vain to reach for his weapons in the next room. He was attacked and it was said, defended himself with spirit, he was however overpowered and in the ensuing struggle a sword was drawn and half of his right ear was slashed off and taken as a trophy by his fleeing assailants.

The following day all hell broke loose in Montreal an inquiry was immediately launched and arrests quickly followed. Everything possible was done to try to identify the assailants to no avail. The soldiers stood by each others alibi's throughout the interrogation and nothing was ever established.

There was however plenty of evidence gathered, bloodstained jackets with 28th facings were found hidden, a Sergeant had borrowed a sword earlier in the evening. Certain soldiers were absent from their quarters at the time of the incident. But no one was brought to trial. 

It was thought however that the perpetrators were probably Sgt. Rogers, Sgt. Mee, Pte's Coleman and McLaughlan all of the 28th. It was also believed that four other private soldiers were involved and the names of two officers, Capt. Payne and Lt. Tottenham were being mentioned in hushed terms.

So from the incident of 'Walkers ear' the nickname of the 'Slashers' found its way into the Regiments vocabulary. 

In all it seems to have been a close 'Regimental Family' affair for nothing was proven and the true account of events was taken by the men of the 28th to their eventual graves. One certain fact however emerged....Nobody messes with the 28th and gets away with it!

The Slashers however was not the first neither was it the only nickname attributed to the Glosters in their long history. 
Raised in Portsmouth, 1694, by Colonel John Gibson to be known as Gibson’s Regiment of Foot. It was the birth of a regiment which was to travel far and fight hard, and which was to win the professional respect and regard of the British Army in generations to come. In 1704 Gibson sold his regiment, as was the way among the privileged of the time, to Colonel Sampson de Lalo. De Lalo exchanged regiments with John Viscount Mordaunt, Colonel of the 21st Foot. 
in 1709 Lord Mordaunt returned to his old regiment when Colonel De Lalo was killed at Malplaquet. There was then a succession of Colonels commanding the regiment until in 1734 when Colonel Nicholas Price handed over to the most famous of the regiment’s colonels of the early days, Colonel Philip Bragg.

The regiment became a happy and much esteemed one under Colonel Bragg, who commanded it for twenty-five years until his death in 1759. He was promoted Lieutenant General in 1747, he was Master of the Royal Hospital at Kilmainham, and he became Member of Parliament for Armagh.
He must have been a commander of great character, for not only did he leave his mark on the regiment, but his name is preserved in the cherished nickname of the regiment – ‘THE OLD BRAGGS’. 
In 1742 Braggs Regiment became the 28th Foot.

Long after General Bragg had died, legend has it that there was a certain brigade parade when a subsequent Colonel of the Regiment became annoyed at the special titles other colonels gave their Regiments. When his turn came he gave, the legend says, this strange word of command.

_ Neither King’s nor Queen’s, nor Royal Marines.
But 28th. Old Braggs: 
Brass before and Brass behind.
Never feared a foe of any kind:
Shoulder Arms! _ 

The other regiment that shares our history is the 61st Regiment of Foot later to become the 2nd Battalion, The Gloucestershire Regiment.
In 1814 the 61st were engaged in a violent and bitter attack against the French led by Marshal Soult, Napoleon’s most able Marshal at the Battle of Toulouse.

The causalities of the 61st at Toulouse were 20 Officers and 161 men killed and wounded. The fatalities included their Commanding Officer, Lieutenant Colonel Coghlan. When the day’s fighting was over the 61st. was left in command of a subaltern, Lieutenant Bace, the adjutant. The 61st had succeeded in driving back the enemy to the outer suburbs of Toulouse.
So impressed were those who saw the fighting of the 61st at Toulouse that the regiment was honoured by a new nickname. From the great number of bodies left on the field, in their scarlet uniform, they were called ‘THE FLOWERS OF TOULOUSE’ a proud tribute to their gallantry.

The Regiment had been given another nickname in the Peninsula. ‘THE SILVER TAILED DANDIES’. Ascribed to the fact that they wore coats with longer tails than other regiments, decorated with silver skirt ornaments.


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## Njaco (Jun 26, 2007)

*The Back Badge*

For their gallantry in fighting back to back, the Regiment was given the unique honour of wearing a badge at the back of their caps. This honour has prevailed. 

On the 1st February 2007 RGBWLI merged with the DDLI to become 1 Rifles. The regular battalions of the Rifles will wear the Back Badge with ceremonial dress, and officers and warrant officers will also wear it on side hats. The RGBWLI TA companies [based in Gloucester and Reading] will continue to wear the Back Badge on their berets, as will the ACF detachments based in Gloucestershire, Berkshire, Bristol and Wiltshire. The Back Badge will also be worn by the Band and Bugles of The Rifles on the ‘shako’.

The Regiment, then the 28th Foot (North Gloucestershire) under the Command of General Sir Ralph Abercromby landed in Egypt against strong French opposition. They marched onwards to Alexandria where they brought the French army to Battle.

The 28th. took up a defensive position on a line of low sand hills. On their right was an old Roman fort, which stood on a slight rise close to the shore, and to the front of this was an unfinished redoubt, which was manned by the 28th. Between them, the fort and the redoubt formed the key position, for if either was taken, then the British flank could be turned.

Under the cover of the pre-dawn darkness and sand dunes, two columns of French infantry headed straight for the British right. Heavy fighting ensued and as more French columns joined the attack, the 28th. Became cut off. The British musketry drove off the French onslaught but a brigade of French infantry moved through the gap between the 28th. and the rest of the British line. A counter attack by the 42nd Foot drove off this attack but they in turn went too far and were themselves in danger from French cavalry. The battle raged all along the line, but nowhere as fiercely as on the right, with the 28th fighting to their front and flanks.

More French cavalry joined in, supported by more infantry. Some of the cavalry broke through the 42nd and formed up to charge the 28th in the rear. With no reserves available at this critical point in the battle, Lt. Col. Chambers, who had taken over command following the serious wounding of the C.O. Col. Paget, gave the historic order "Rear rank, 28th! Right about face!"

The rear ranks turned and with exemplary discipline waited until the French cavalry were a few horse lengths away. They then fired one devastating volley, causing heavy casualties amongst the cavalry and forcing them to withdraw.

Back Badge day is celebrated on the 21st day of March each year.


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## Emac44 (Jun 26, 2007)

Thanks Niaco was pretty sure it was the Glosters mate. Quiet a few British Line Regiments had nicknames or depending on whence they were raised or what battle honours they received. There is a term I came across many years ago Lincolnshire Yellow Bellies. Refers to people from Lincolnshire England. BUt I believe it has more a Militaristic Nickname. Possibley Regiments from Lincolnshire had Yellow facing and trim on their uniforms hence the nickname


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## Njaco (Jun 26, 2007)

Maybe we could start a new thread on regiment histories and traditions. I'm sure other armies of the world have something unique about them. I've just followed a few of the British regiments and am only slightly aware of US traditions.


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## Emac44 (Jun 26, 2007)

I agree Niaco. Not a bad idea whence Regiments get their names from or branches of the service. For example Royal Tank Regiment. Known as the Blues and Royals


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## Njaco (Jun 26, 2007)

Not something I've studied - just enjoyed reading about, like the history of the 24th Foot, now the South Wales Borders. Beside Rourke's Drift, they were in some hairy engagements. The 1st or 2nd Indian Rebellion they charged an enemy line with hardly nothing in the way of weapons and such and took the post. Interesting stuff.


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## Emac44 (Jun 27, 2007)

Saw an interesting documentary about the 24th Foot South Wales Borders. And about Rourke's Drift and the Commanding Officers at Rourke's Drift. History details if I can recall it a bit different from the movie Zulu and the current overall impression since the 1870s of the defence of the Mission. The documentary discribed the leading events and subsquent aftermath of The Zulu Wars concerning Rouke's Drift as an 19th century spin job and a political face saving exercise for British High Command at the time. There are no problems concerning Rouke's Drift as such but once again such was the period of the time in the political arenea of the British Empire that the defense of Rourke's Drift was used afterwards to cover up blatant incomptent decission made by the British Army at the time in South Africa Niaco


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## Njaco (Jun 27, 2007)

Outside of the courageous stand at Rourke's Drift, the whole of the British part of the Zulu war was a mess as it is for most countries throughout history who expand their borders. The Zulus were trying to live within their tribal laws and English law intruded. While demands were made they were impossible to keep by the Zulus and hence the war. I believe alot of this led to the Boer Wars 10 or so years later with England. Great moment in the "Zulu" movie is when Odendorf tells M. Caine "_Zulus are the enemies of our blood, but why are you English here. Its what you bloody English want after the war that concerns me (paraphrase here)_" Love the line.

Movie wasn't too bad. Pastor Witt actually was one of the ones who first sighted the Zulus, wasn't a drunk and left of his own accord to summon help. But that doesn't take away from the movie that much for me. I understand Hollywood licensing,  

England's colonialism in South Africa is interesting just as it is (to me) with India and Sudan. I love the US but GB has some great, interesting little wars.


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## Emac44 (Jun 28, 2007)

Niaco England had her motives. No one denies it. All for Queen and Country Niaco. It was an Empire by the truest definition of the word


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## Njaco (Jun 28, 2007)

Oh most agreed. Fascinating what she did to keep her little empire. Probably not far removed from the US in modern times. Politics may be different but we still have Bosnia, Mogadishu, Iraq, Panama, Grenada, etc. I'm not heavily into the causes beyond why the British or even US were doing what they were doing. Its the battles and chess plays that are of interest.


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## mosquitoman (Jun 29, 2007)

Little empire? It was the biggest empire ever!


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## Njaco (Jun 29, 2007)

sheesh, doesn't sarcasim work here?


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## Emac44 (Jun 30, 2007)

Njaco said:


> sheesh, doesn't sarcasim work here?



Nope. Not with an Englishman when he has missed out on his tea and crumpets Niaco


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## Njaco (Jun 30, 2007)




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## mosquitoman (Jul 1, 2007)

You're right there, I need a cuppa


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## Emac44 (Jul 6, 2007)

Mossie thats why the English Empire failed. To much bloody TIFFIN TIME


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## Njaco (Jul 7, 2007)

Here's astupid question. Any battle lost because of aherence to tea time? Something more along the lines as was protrayed in "Zulu Dawn"?


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## Emac44 (Jul 8, 2007)

Njaco said:


> Here's astupid question. Any battle lost because of aherence to tea time? Something more along the lines as was protrayed in "Zulu Dawn"?



Yes actually the Attack at Sulva during the Gallipoli Campaign 1915. British Troops came ashore advanced and stopped to make tea. Whilst Australians and New Zealanders in another part of Gallipoli were attacking the Turks to draw attention from the British Landings. The ANZACs have never forgotten it Nijaco. Aussies and Kiwis were slaughtered in a full blown attack in places like the Nek (AUSSIES) and The Kiwis had their own battles where they were slaughtered. Not so much as an observance of tea making Just a bloody stuff up by British High Command. that isn't a slight against our English Forum users of course. But British High Command wasn't highly thought off by the ANZACs on a whole during both World Wars


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## Njaco (Jul 8, 2007)

Maybe thats why they had to show Monty how to do it at El Alamein and Tobruk?  It was just a question and I hope I don't get burned by others for the question as I'm sure the US had similar mistakes.


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## Emac44 (Aug 13, 2007)

Monty was different Njaco. He had the ability to be abled to get common with the Common Soldiery of the Commonwealth. I think in the case of Montgomery he was approachable in aspects I can not explain fully. It came from him having actually served in the trenches during WW1 that he had this attitude. An American would possibley see it as a bit stuffed shirt or over cautious but we see it differently or should I say I do. I would say to you Njaco some one like Patton or Macarthur was a right royal pain in the arse and very much prima donnas in their aspects. But then again I view that as a Non American. As for Tobruk and El Alamien. The 2nd battles of El Alamien were victories for the British and Commonwealth Forces. But the North African Camapign including Tobruk was a see saw battle across hundreds of miles of deserts. One could say Rommel ****** up at times in North Africa as well Njaco. Rommel over stretcehd his capabilities and often and came unstuck at times at the end of an over stretched supply lines and paid the consquences for it. Just as the British had and did.


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## Njaco (Aug 18, 2007)

I think we in the US are more enamoured with personalities sometimes than with performance. Monty and Patton did their bit and were major reasons why the Allies won. I just chuckle sometimes at the indepth analsys of their character. It makes interesting discusion but who care? We won. IMHO.

As far as El Alamein I was commenting on how Monty was not making headway until the Anzacs broke thru. Tea time be damned!


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## The Basket (Aug 18, 2007)

I think the Falklands were Britains last imperial war.

Rommel was very reckless which is ok when it worked and bad when it did not.

The British Empire was based on money. Queen and country was a cover.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Aug 18, 2007)

and a motivator.

It sounds much better to say you are fighting for Queen and Country than to say I'm fighting to save the British East India Trading Company.


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## Njaco (Aug 18, 2007)

or McDonalds.  I think as long as humans have grouped together to govern themselves there has been one element who were or are more intelligent than the rest and those who come from a postion of wealth. When it comes to power, that has been the struggle instead of relief of the populace (which is used as a means of justification).


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## Emac44 (Aug 18, 2007)

Course the British Empire was based on Money. But it worked and did so for nearly 250 years. Njaco during WW1 the Aussies were paid 8 shillings a day where the poor old British Tommy was only paid a shilling a day. This hadn't changed much during WW2 either. So who do you think Monty would trust more? His 8 Bob a Day Warriors or his 1 Shilling Tommies? Its ok Njaco I am joking its not a serious question


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## Aussie1001 (Aug 19, 2007)

Point made.....


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## trackend (Aug 20, 2007)

Emac44 said:


> Course the British Empire was based on Money. But it worked and did so for nearly 250 years. Njaco during WW1 the Aussies were paid 8 shillings a day where the poor old British Tommy was only paid a shilling a day. This hadn't changed much during WW2 either.



Very true EM my old man did get a weekly payment in the navy called hard layers pay of 1s for being in combined ops on top of his 17s 6d a week (which is 87p or about $2 AUD / $1.70 US) and at the end of the war received a bounty of £20.


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## Emac44 (Aug 20, 2007)

trackend said:


> Very true EM my old man did get a weekly payment in the navy called hard layers pay of 1s for being in combined ops on top of his 17s 6d a week (which is 87p or about $2 AUD / $1.70 US) and at the end of the war received a bounty of £20.



Don't spend it all in one shop hey Track


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## plan_D (Aug 20, 2007)

_"It sounds much better to say you are fighting for Queen and Country than to say I'm fighting to save the British East India Trading Company."_

If you were in the Royal Navy you wouldn't be fighting for the East India Trading Company, the East India Company had a navy of its own. You might be a pressed man from the East India Company, but then you're not fighting to save the East India Company anymore.


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## rogthedodge (Aug 20, 2007)

And their own Army too! 

They were integrated into the (British) Indian Army after the Indian Mutiny / when the role of the EIC in India was changed.

It's complicated but they had different unit numbering pay scales so integration was tricky

'Sahib' by Richard Holmes (excellent BTW) gives a detailed explanation


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## Njaco (Aug 20, 2007)

Cool stuff, rog and plan, didn't know that. I think Emac was just making a quick comparision, something akin to fighting for McDonald's Big Mac Regiment or "I'm fighting for PETA!"!!!


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## lucanus (Aug 20, 2007)

Doesn't PETA stands for People Eating Tasty Animals?


You know the 'Banana Wars' fought in Haiti, Nicaragua, etc.,
by the Marines were to protect the interest of the United
Fruit Co. But when you read passed that, you find that some
of the best leaders and junglefighters came out of this bit
of Corporation war...Most of the Marine officers started out as
Sgts in Haiti, etc.


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## The Basket (Aug 20, 2007)

Well the United Kingdom was totally bankrupt and in debt to Uncle Sam at the end of WW2.

End of Empire, end of superpower status, no more ruling the seas.

A twist is that the most greatest achievement, in the end, ruined it all.

Ah well. Tbh...I'm glad. Self determination and democracy should rule, not a distant Empire. 

FREEDOM!( maybe I live in Scotland too long!)


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## Emac44 (Aug 27, 2007)

Hell Basket the British Empire was broke by the end of WW1. The end of WW2 just put the nail into the coffin for the British Empire. As an old Empire subsided to make room for a new one.. Its called the United States of America
One Empire subsides to be replaced by another. It was just history repeating itself. Eventually so it will happen to the USA's Economic Empire. But which country will replace it is conjecture and isn't likely to happen just yet


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## Njaco (Aug 27, 2007)

I have a feeling in a hundred years or so it might be an Asian country.


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## Medvedya (Sep 5, 2007)

I'll have to put some pictures of the Boer War bits and pieces we have sometime - my great-grandfather went out there, and we still have his messtin, medals, ammo bag and a worn down brass belt buckle - all with his service number on them (it's only four digits which surprised me)


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## Emac44 (Sep 7, 2007)

Medvedya said:


> I'll have to put some pictures of the Boer War bits and pieces we have sometime - my great-grandfather went out there, and we still have his messtin, medals, ammo bag and a worn down brass belt buckle - all with his service number on them (it's only four digits which surprised me)



I would like to see those Medvedya


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## Henk (Sep 15, 2007)

It would be great to see the pictures.


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## mkloby (Sep 15, 2007)

Medvedya said:


> I'll have to put some pictures of the Boer War bits and pieces we have sometime - my great-grandfather went out there, and we still have his messtin, medals, ammo bag and a worn down brass belt buckle - all with his service number on them (it's only four digits which surprised me)



I'm interested in seeing them also. Brass belt buckle... I had one of them when I first joined. You have to polish those damn things near everyday to keep them looking nice!


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## grob (Nov 11, 2007)

Being british and proud today i am not proud of some of the things done to other people in the past in other countrys,but the same can be said of all countrys and peoples including the boers.Was the land theirs in the first place ?? and how did they get it ?? The empire is dead may it rest in peace.


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## Henk (Dec 28, 2007)

grob said:


> Being british and proud today i am not proud of some of the things done to other people in the past in other countrys,but the same can be said of all countrys and peoples including the boers.Was the land theirs in the first place ?? and how did they get it ?? The empire is dead may it rest in peace.



The Boers did try to buy the land or exchange with the Zulu's for some land, but then they killed the Boer people who went there to talk to them the battle of Blood river was the end of the Zulus might. Most of the Boers went where no one lived, they did not go to take other peoples land. If you read more about it you will see what I mean.


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## Henk (Dec 28, 2007)

Medvedya said:


> I'll have to put some pictures of the Boer War bits and pieces we have sometime - my great-grandfather went out there, and we still have his messtin, medals, ammo bag and a worn down brass belt buckle - all with his service number on them (it's only four digits which surprised me)



Would love to see them mate.


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## South Lancs (Dec 29, 2008)

I was researching my dad's regiment, South Lancashire Regiment , Prince of Wales Volunteers when I found this web site. Is it too late to add to this thread or has it been laid to rest.
South Lancs


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## Njaco (Dec 30, 2008)

I don't think so as long as its not a rehashing of whats been posted. Any tasty bits about the war and the South Lancs?


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## South Lancs (Dec 30, 2008)

First time I've been on a site likje this so if I make any mistakes then please forgive me.
Njaco - I've been through the old mail and I'll try not to duplicate any but my questions are aimed at Henk.
First Henk, if you are not interested in more questions then let me know and I'll stop. If you are then my first question is why do you refer to General DeLa Rey as the first gorilla leader.
South Lancs


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## South Lancs (Dec 30, 2008)

Quote "General De la Rey also invented the Gorilla war fare tactic which has been used all over the world made him very famous and it proved very successful against the British Army."

Sorry !first mistake I mis quoted but I'm trying to find out how to quote others comments


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## Catch22 (Jan 9, 2009)

There's a quote button under each post.


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