# WWII submarines.....



## Lucky13 (May 13, 2007)

Which submarines would you put on a top 10 list and in which order?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 14, 2007)

First ones easy and then it gets harder.

1. Type XXI (Germany)
2. Type VII (Germany)
3. Tench Class (USA)
4. Balao Class (USA)
5. Gato Class (USA)
6. I-200 Class (Japan)
7. I-15 Class (Japan)
8. A Class (England)
9. Type IX (Germany)
10. 600 Class (Italy)


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## Glider (May 14, 2007)

1 Type XXI (Germany)
2 USA Fleet Class incl Gato, Balao and Tench
3 U/V Class (British)
4 Type IX (Germany)
5 Foca Class (Italian)
6 T class (British)
7 Type VII (Germany)
8 Cagni (Italian)
9 Aurore (France)
10 K6 Class (Japan)

I found the first four pretty easy and the rest were difficult. Happy to debate any of them.


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## comiso90 (May 14, 2007)

*Very short operational history but Japan's I-400 was amazing and influenced post-war designs.*

Each submarine had four 3,000 horsepower (2.2 MW) engines and fuel enough to go around the world one-and-a-half times, more than enough to reach the United States from either direction. It displaced 6,500 tons and was over 400 feet (120 m) long, three times the size of ordinary submarines. It had a figure-eight hull shape for additional strength to handle the on-deck hangar for housing the three aircraft. In addition, it had four anti-aircraft guns and a large deck cannon as well as eight torpedo tubes.

They were able to carry three Aichi M6A Seiran aircraft, each carrying an 800 kilogram (1,764 lb) bomb 650 miles (1000 km) at 295 miles per hour (474 km/h). Its name was combination of sei (clear sky) and ran (storm), literally “storm out of a clear sky,” because it was presumed that the Americans would not know they were coming. The existence of the seiran class of aircraft was unknown to Allied intelligence. The wings of the seiran folded back, the horizontal stabilizers folded down, and the top of the vertical stabilizer folded over so the overall forward profile of the aircraft was within the diameter of its propeller. When prepared for flight, they had a wing span of 40 feet (12 m) and a length of 38 feet (11.6 m). A crew of four could prepare and get all three airborne in 45 minutes. The planes were launched from a 120-foot (37-m) catapult on the deck of the giant submarine. A restored Seiran airplane is displayed at the National Air and Space Museum in Washington, D.C. Only one was ever recovered and it had been ravaged by weather and souvenir collectors, but the restoration team was able to reconstruct it accurately.

I-400 class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 15, 2007)

The most influential on post war designs was the Type XXI.

Below is a few pics of U-2540 which is a Type XXI and a museum in Bremerhaven, Germany.


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## Lucky13 (May 17, 2007)

I remember reading somewhere a while back, that there are three XXI trapped somewhere in a uboat bunker, is that true?


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## comiso90 (May 17, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The most influential on post war designs was the Type XXI.
> 
> Below is a few pics of U-2540 which is a Type XXI and a museum in Bremerhaven, Germany.



That does have very modern lines to it...

I bet North Korea would buy it today!


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## Erich (May 17, 2007)

there wre at least 3 big boy 2500+class at Hamburg all sealed up in old bombed out pens with the boots still intact. not sure if they have been open to light but a few locals and very lucky in my opinion have delved into those hell holes to view them and it is all on film.

personally besides the XXI I would prefer the short range but very unseen Seehünds with the K-Verband which has a short and very interesting history put into service way too fast with the two man crews in most cases given minimum training let alone knowing anything about their rigs


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 17, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> I remember reading somewhere a while back, that there are three XXI trapped somewhere in a uboat bunker, is that true?



Yes at the Elbe II Bunker in Hamburg, Germany. There are 3 Type XXIs in the bunker.

Go to this website for the pictures. This is the best U-Boat website on the interenet and has the histories of all the U-Boats and all the surviving boats today.

uboat.net - History - Type XXI U-boats in Elbe II bunker in Hamburg


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 17, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> That does have very modern lines to it...
> 
> I bet North Korea would buy it today!



They were the first subs built for complete underwater ops. Very ahead in technology and design for there time.


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## Lucky13 (May 17, 2007)

Thank you Adler.....


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## comiso90 (May 17, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Yes at the Elbe II Bunker in Hamburg, Germany. There are 3 Type XXIs in the bunker.
> 
> Go to this website for the pictures. This is the best U-Boat website on the interenet and has the histories of all the U-Boats and all the surviving boats today.
> 
> uboat.net - History - Type XXI U-boats in Elbe II bunker in Hamburg



Cool!

Was the bunker destroyed by a Tallboy or was it demolished after the war?


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## Erich (May 17, 2007)

like I said it was visited many years ago and the boots filmed on tape

for all your enjoyment:

UK München 1926: The English version of Munich Submariners Association


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## delcyros (May 17, 2007)

The bunker was unsuccesfully attacked but survived ww2 (including two Tallboy raids) with only minor damages. The three XXI boats inside (U-3004, U-2505, U-3506) were scuttled by the KM in the closing hours of ww2. The british tried to blow up the bunker in 46-47 and as a result of these demolitions the mid wall gave way.
Following an accident of souvenir hunters, the whole bunker was flooded with sand beginning in 1995 and is no longer accessable. The whole construction revealed to be a bit of the sturdy type and resisted demolition charges in 2001 (again) so that the upper walls and remaining side walls had to be broken up expensively while the lower parts and the buried boats have been covered by sand and beton. They will remain there for some centuries...


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## Henk (May 17, 2007)

It was not smart to covert it with sand. Why did they not rather open it up and make so taht the public can fiew the boats. People who does not see the value of History.


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## delcyros (May 18, 2007)

Sand flooding is cheap and highly effective. From a conservational point of view this was an excellent choice and the measure will preserve the boats for ~two centuries. Maybe polititcs then allow them to be restored. But in our days, there are many, many museums in Germany covering ww2 (almost every city museum does) and little need to display those boats when U-2501 is already on display.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 18, 2007)

I disagree, it would have been much better to turn the other 3 into musuems. Turn the whole bunker complex into a museum.


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## Henk (May 19, 2007)

U-2501 is not completely like she was in WW2, the other three are the original. I think they must make the bunker a museum like Adler said.


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## delcyros (May 19, 2007)

Neither are the 3 remaining boats complete. They suffered from intensive salvaging and souvenir hunters. The bunker also is absent, only the substructures remain there, this would mean to rebuild the bunker, which is nowhere leading.

I would rather spend the money to rebuild one bunker in Thuringia, which still has it´s technical equipment elevators installed. They mass produced Me-262 and V-2 down there under 120ft. rock.


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## Lucky13 (May 19, 2007)

True Henk. That was something that I was hoping for them to do. Probably be too expensive for them I'm afraid.


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## Smokey (May 19, 2007)

The I-200 class were also impressive

Imperial Japanese Navy submarines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> The Sentaka Type (I-201 class) submarines were modern design, and known as Sentaka (From Sen, abbreviation of Sensuikan, "Submarine", and Taka, abbreviation of Kōsoku, "High speed"). Three were built, I-201, I-202, and I-203 (I-204 to I-208 were not completed).
> 
> They displaced 1070 tonnes, had a test depth of 360 feet, and were armed with four torpedo tubes and 25-mm guns in retractable mounts to maintain streamlining. These submarines were designed for mass production. They were high-performance boats, with streamlined all-welded hulls and a high battery capacity supplying two 2500hp motors, which had nearly double the horsepower of the German-designed MAN diesels. The submerged speed was 19 knots, more than double that achieved by contemporary American designs. They were equipped with a snorkel, allowing for underwater diesel operation while recharging batteries.








http://www.wing21.rtaf.mi.th/wboard/31254819311.jpg


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## Henk (May 19, 2007)

Yes I know it is expensive and yes guys there are so many great WW2 bunkers and stuff they can really do something to make it so that the public and can view them or make them so that our grandkids can see them.

delcyros any more info on that bunker mate please?


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## Soren (May 28, 2007)

Pictures of the three Type XXI boats trapped in the Elbe II in Hamburg: uboat.net - History - Type XXI U-boats in Elbe II bunker in Hamburg


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## Lucky13 (Jul 3, 2007)

Which sub would come out on top in the end, if you put them (those that saw action in a larger number in WWII) against each other one vs one?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 3, 2007)

Type XXI. It was the most modern sub of WW2 and actually the only "real" sub.


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## Glider (Jul 3, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Type XXI. It was the most modern sub of WW2 and actually the only "real" sub.



Totally agree. The Type XXI is the runaway winner and you have to discuss which come second.


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## SoD Stitch (Jul 3, 2007)

Definitely the Type XXI; it was (at the time) years ahead of everybody else's designs and, as comiso said, there are probably more than few countries out there who would buy one today if they still made them.


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## Lucky13 (Jul 3, 2007)

One problem though gents, they didn't see action in larger a number....or did they?


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## Gnomey (Jul 3, 2007)

118 commissioned.

uboat.net - U-boat Types - Type XXI


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## Lucky13 (Jul 3, 2007)

How many saw combat patrols though? Just found this website World War II U.S. Submarine Warfare in the Pacific War 1941 1945.


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## delcyros (Jul 3, 2007)

Very few.

Unlike most other New tech. objects (missiles, jets), Dönitz emphasized a high degree of training with the then new type of electroboats and didn´t rushed them into combat. This and bombing caused delays meant that only a handful were operational by wars end. Some type XXI boats engaged in -purely defensive- actions such as several submarines used their AAA and at least three low level flying Lancaster are credited to type XXI AA-fire. Six boats disengaged ASW vessels underwater without beeing harmed and two type XXI boats shadowed a british submarine off norway (respectively a russian on in the Baltic) for days without taking any notice. U-2511 was one of only two boats, which went on an operational combat patrol into the North Atlantic and was recalled at VE-day. The boat intercepted a british convoi and undertook a mock attack on the convoi without beeing noticed by ASW-forces. Another boat reportedly underwent a mock attack on a ASW-covered CV in the northern North Sea a day later. None of the boats was detected.
Some of the smaller brother of type XXI, the coastal type XXIII boats went on combat patrols. The sinking of the last 4 ships of ww2 in english waters before VE-day are credited to them.


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