# Carrier operations.....



## Lucky13 (May 23, 2007)

For those that thinks that carrier operations is hazardous today should take a look at these....from the "good old days". You better not let your mind slip.














From the USS Coral Sea Tribute Site.


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## davparlr (May 26, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> For those that thinks that carrier operations is hazardous today should take a look at these....from the "good old days". You better not let your mind slip.
> 
> 
> From the USS Coral Sea Tribute Site.




Nice Pixs. I suspect that it is not less hazardous today since one can get bit from both ends of the aircraft nowadays.


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## syscom3 (May 26, 2007)

Great pics!


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## renrich (May 26, 2007)

Knew a fellow once who was a Navy pilot who was flying F4Fs when war broke out( had 10 kills in the Pacific) His last job in the Navy was project officer on the F111B. Asked him if landing on a carrier was more or less difficult today than when he started. He said much more difficult in 1941.


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## davparlr (May 26, 2007)

renrich said:


> Knew a fellow once who was a Navy pilot who was flying F4Fs when war broke out( had 10 kills in the Pacific) His last job in the Navy was project officer on the F111B. Asked him if landing on a carrier was more or less difficult today than when he started. He said much more difficult in 1941.



Interesting comment. The overtake speed is much higher today, however, with no angled deck on the older carriers, missed wires could be exciting!


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## machine shop tom (May 26, 2007)

While not aircraft-related, my dad told me of a guy on his CVE that ignored the warning siren on the aircraft lift. He got cut in half........

tom


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## renrich (May 27, 2007)

dav, I think the angled flight deck is a big advantage as well as the mirror landing system. Some of the film shot of the early naval aviators trying to land on the Langley is very exciting.


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## DOUGRD (May 28, 2007)

One big difference between now and the "Good Old Days"is back then you only had one thing to worry PROPS! Today you have a mixed bag of props (E2C's and C-2A's) Helos, and the jets. One of the toughest things to get used to is knowing which jets are running and which aren't. After a while you get used to looking at the cockpits. If it's manned consider it running. It's a little easier today because the number of different jet models has been reduced. When I was on carriers we had A-7's, A-6's, EA-6's, S-3's, F-14's, E-2's, H-3's so you really had to keep you head on a swivel. THE ONLY PLACE WHERE RUSH HOUR IS AT THE SPEED OF SOUND! You gotta love it!!


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## DOUGRD (May 28, 2007)

renrich said:


> dav, I think the angled flight deck is a big advantage as well as the mirror landing system. Some of the film shot of the early naval aviators trying to land on the Langley is very exciting.



You're right about the angle deck being a huge advantage. For two reasons, first of all as everyone knows you can launch and recover aircraft simultaneously but the other real advantage is the psychological one for the pilots. On short final they are looking at angle deck and blue water beyond vice straight deck and parked aircraft. Big difference in pucker factor. By the way, the mirror landing system you mentioned is called the "Fresnell Lens" and I've got no idea way since it does work using mirrors.


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## DOUGRD (May 28, 2007)

Just looked it up...the fresnel lens is named after it's inventor the french physicist AUGUSTIN-JEAN FRESNEL. Learn something new every day!


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## Lucky13 (May 28, 2007)

AJ touches down on deck-hook snaps off. If you look you can see the broken hook in the air just above the horizon.





The AJ makes contact with both the low barrier wires and then sheds the nylon high barriers (High barriers not shown).





Here the AJ has come through the barriers without any slowdown heading into the forward parked planes aircraft.





The AJ has made its first contact on its port wing. One interesting point--look at the forward deck, just to the left of the parked jeep, and you'll see one lucky sailor as he runs to port for cover.





Full contact. See that piece of wing on the horizon --that sailed about 2 feet over my head before crashing into the main stack.

AJ crash aftermath.


































Just for size comparison....




1956 USS Coral Sea CVA-43 - In port at Norfolk Naval Shipyard. The new "super carrier" the USS Forrestal CV-59 is tied up on the next pier over. Note the size difference between the Midway Class and Forrestal Class. The Midway Class carriers could never operate F-14's or S-3 squadrons because of the limited space. 


















Same as above... USS Coral Sea Tribute Site.


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## renrich (May 28, 2007)

I believe we have our British cousins to thank for a lot of the carrier innovations as they were first to use the angled flight deck, mirror landing system and steam catapult. Understand our CVs under construction now are going to use electro-magnetic catapults.


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## Lucky13 (May 28, 2007)

renrich said:


> I believe we have our British cousins to thank for a lot of the carrier innovations as they were first to use the angled flight deck, mirror landing system and steam catapult. Understand our CVs under construction now are going to use electro-magnetic catapults.



AND....the're not gonna name them after Presidents anymore I've heard.


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## syscom3 (May 28, 2007)

Lucky13............

Fantastic set of pics!

I bet the noise of the crash was deafening and scary.

Amazing nothing caught fire!


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## FLYBOYJ (May 28, 2007)

Great shots - that AJ driver wiped out half his squadron and a few others - Ace in a day!


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## Lucky13 (May 28, 2007)

Glad to be of service lads... A question though. What happens to the pilot in cases like these? It was obviously NOT is fault, right? Could he had done something else? Will he have to face a, not a courtmarcial(?) maybe, but something similar?


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## Gnomey (May 28, 2007)

Excellent pics!


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## pbfoot (May 28, 2007)

Excellent sequence


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## renrich (May 28, 2007)

Au contraire, I believe one of the CVs currently under construction is named after Bush 41.


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## syscom3 (May 28, 2007)

renrich said:


> Au contraire, I believe one of the CVs currently under construction is named after Bush 41.



Thats true.

I don't know what names are planned for after Bush "41".

No one is sure going to want to serve on a USS Clinton (even if they're gay.....)


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## renrich (May 28, 2007)

Somehow I don't think any naval vessels will be names the Clinton.


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## Lucky13 (May 29, 2007)

That is what they said. This one will be called Bush that they're building now. The next class of aircraft carriers will not have presidents names. They're have been recieving names from the public like USS America and Enterprise. Saw a program on Discovery a couple of months back showing the carrier that they're currently building. Somehow I don't think that prresidents names have the same feeling (I don't know if that's the right word ) as Yorktown, Coral Sea, Midway, Lexington, Saratoga and so on. I'm terribly sorry if stepped on someones toes here.... I can't remember how many carriers it is supposed to be in the new class, but I think it was 5 or 7. What names would you like to see?


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## renrich (May 29, 2007)

I agree about CV names. Rather than use president names I go for the traditional like Wasp, Enterprise, et al.


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## Lucky13 (May 29, 2007)

B***dy hell! I just saw on the Discovery Channel about USS Eisenhower a guy that was sucked up in the intake of a A-6 Intruder because he forgot to duck when passing....one second he was there and the next GONE!! Miracuously the poor sod survived with only minor injuries..made me feel sick.


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## Lucky13 (May 29, 2007)

Some more carrier deck pics lads....





USS Philippine Sea (CV-47)
A Grumman F9F-2 Panther of Fighter Squadron 111 (VF-111) being moved by a flight deck tractor, during operations off Korea, 19 October 1950.
Other planes parked near by are Vought F4U-4B Corsairs.





Vought F4U-4B Corsair, of Fighter Squadron 113 (VF-113)
Taxies forward on the flight deck of USS Philippine Sea (CV-47), just before taking off to attack North Korean targets, 19 October 1950. 
Note small bombs on the plane's wings and flight deck crewman signalling to the pilot.





U.S. Marine Corps F4U-4B Corsair fighter-bomber receives final checks to its armament of bombs and 5-inch rockets, just prior to being catapulted from USS Sicily (CVE-118) for a strike on enemy forces in Korea. The original photograph is dated 16 November 1950, but was probably taken in August-October 1950. Note battered paint on this aircraft.





Vought F4U-4B Corsair, of Fighter Squadron 114 (VF-114) returns to USS Philippine Sea (CV-47) following a strike on North Korean targets, 19 October 1950.





USS Philippine Sea (CV-47) crewmen Gerald F. Quay (AMM3c) and Warren E. McKee (PH2c) check braces on a napalm tank, during a snowstorm off North Korea, 17 November 1950. The weapon is mounted on the port wing of a Douglas AD Skyraider parked on the carrier's flight deck.





USS Philippine Sea (CV-47) flight deck scene, looking aft from the island, as the carrier is enveloped in a snowstorm off the Korean coast, 15 November 1950. Planes on deck include Vought F4U-4B Corsair fighters and Douglas AD Skyraider attack planes. Note men on deck, apparently tossing snowballs, and what may be a toppled snowman just in front of the midships elevator.





USS Philippine Sea (CV-47) ordnancemen hauling bombs on the carrier's flight deck, preparing planes for attacks on enemy targets in Korea, 19 October 1950. A Douglas AD-4 Skyraider of Attack Squadron 115 (VA-115) is behind them, with small bombs on its wing racks.





USS Philippine Sea (CV-47) ordnancemen loading bombs on a Vought F4U-4B Corsair of Fighter Squadron 114 (VF-114), during operations off Korea, 19 October 1950. This aircraft is Bureau No. 63034. F4U-4 in the right background has tail code "PP", indicating that it belongs to squadron VC-61.





USS Philippine Sea (CV-47) ordnancemen attach rockets to the hardpoints on the wing of a Vought F4U-4B Corsair fighter, October 1950.





USS Philippine Sea (CV-47) Grumman F9F-2 Panther of Fighter Squadron 111 (VF-111) is fueled on the carrier's forward flight deck, during operations off Korean, 19 October 1950. At left are Vought F4U-4B Corsair fighter-bombers of Fighter Squadron 114 (VF-114).





USS Philippine Sea (CV-47) Douglas AD-4 Skyraider of Attack Squadron 115 (VA-115) spotted for launch with a wing load of bombs, during operations off Korea, 19 October 1950. This aircraft is Bureau No. 123830.





USS Philippine Sea (CV-47) a Vought F4U-4B Corsair of Fighter Squadron 113 (VF-113) gets the "Go" signal to take off, during operations off Korea, 19 October 1950.





USS Philippine Sea (CV-47) Douglas AD Skyraider of Attack Squadron 115 (VF-115) ready for launching on a strike mission against Korean targets, 19 October 1950.





USS Philippine Sea (CV-47) a Douglas AD-4W Skyraider prepares to take off for a night heckler mission over Korea, 19 October 1950. Vought F4U-4B Corsair fighters are parked in the right background. The ship's Sikorski HO3S-1 utility helicopter is overhead, in the upper left distance.





USS Philippine Sea (CV-47) Vought F4U-4B Corsair of Fighter Squadron 114 (VF-114) taking off for a mission over Korea, 19 October 1950. Other F4Us are following.





USS Philippine Sea (CV-47) Douglas AD-4 Skyraider of Attack Squadron 115 (VA-115) takes off on a mission to support UN forces in North Korea, 25 November 1950. Note the plane's load of two large and eight small bombs.
Also note details of the ship's island and very weathered "47" painted on her stack.

From NHC.


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## syscom3 (May 29, 2007)

Great Job Lucky!

As for names..... how about naming them after some bona fide war hero's or fighting admirals of the past.

I'd like to see a "USS Sullivans".


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## renrich (May 29, 2007)

Wonder why they have never named in modern days a CV USS Congress. There was a frigate named Congress in the early 1800s. LOL Does my heart good to see those pictures mixed in with ADs and Panthers the good old F4U, the greatest recip fighter in history.


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## Lucky13 (May 29, 2007)

Cheers fellas! Does anyone of you know how many of the Essex class carriers that is still waiting for their destiny, or are they all scrapped by now?





USS Lexington (CV-16) a F6F-3 Hellcat of Fighting Squadron Sixteen (VF-16) gets the take-off flag from Lieutenant John M. Clark, during operations in the Gilberts and Marshalls, 23 November 1943. VF-16 pilots shot down seventeen Japanese aircraft on that day.





USS Wasp (CV-18) flight deck crews prepare to load a Mark XIII torpedo on a TBM aircraft, during strikes in the Luzon-Formosa area, 13 October 1944.
Note plywood shrouds on the torpedo's fins and nose. Plane at right is an F6F, others visible are TBMs.





USS Bennington (CV-20) Grumman F6F-5 Hellcat fighters prepare for takeoff, May 1945.





Gilberts Operation, November 1943 a Grumman F6F-3 Hellcat fighter makes condensation rings as it awaits the take-off flag aboard USS Yorktown (CV-10), 20 November 1943. The plane is from Fighting Squadron Five (VF-5).
Yorktown was then hitting targets in the Marshall Islands to cover the landings in the Gilberts.





USS Yorktown (CV-10) ordnancemen working on bombs amid F6F-3 Hellcat fighters parked on the carrier's hangar deck, circa October-December 1943. Other crewmen are watching a movie in the background. Bombs appear to include two 1000-pounders and one 500-pounder.





USS Yorktown (CV-10) SB2C-1 Helldiver bombers return to the carrier after a raid in early July 1944. The original caption for this photograph, released by Commander in Chief, Pacific, gives the date as 6 July 1944 and identifies the target as Chichi Jima, Bonin Islands, which was actually attacked on 4 June. Edward Steichen's "U.S. Navy War Photographs" identifies the target as Guam.





USS Randolph (CV-15) alongside a repair ship at Ulithi Atoll, Caroline Islands, 13 March 1945, showing damage to her after flight deck resulting from a Kamikaze hit on 11 March. Photographed from a USS Miami (CL-89) floatplane.





USS Randolph (CV-15) crewmen fighting fires on the ship's flight deck, after she was hit by a Kamikaze, 11 March 1945.





USS Randolph (CV-15) Grumman F6F "Hellcat" fighter parked on the port catapult, March 1945. Note the plane's tail markings, unique to this ship.





USS Hornet (CV-12) view looking aft from the ship's island as she steams with other carriers during a western Pacific gunnery practice session, June 1945. Next ship astern is USS Bon Homme Richard (CV-31), firing her 5"/38 battery to starboard. Two small aircraft carriers (CVL) are beyond her.
Note yellow flight deck markings on Hornet and TBM and SB2C aircraft parked aft.





Carrier Raids on Formosa, October 1944 crewmen on USS Hancock (CV-19) move rockets to planes, while preparing for strikes on Formosa, 12 October 1944.





Carrier Raids on the Philippines, November 1944 flight Deck Officer on USS Hancock (CV-19) waves the "take-off" flag at a SB2C Helldiver bomber, during strikes on Manila Bay, 25 November 1944.





USS Intrepid (CV-11) crewmen prepare to load a 2000-pound general-purpose bomb in the bomb bay of a TBM Avenger aircraft, 27 January 1944. The carrier was then en route to support the invasion of Roi and Namur Islands, Kwajalein Atoll. Note inscriptions on the bomb, from Torpedoman 3rd Class R.A. Franco, addressed to "Hon. Hirohito, Imperial Palace, Tokyo".
Also note flame reducer on the plane's exhaust port, and landing gear details.





Japanese Kamikaze suicide plane disintegrates in flames after hitting USS Intrepid (CV-11), during operations off the Philippines on 25 November 1944.





USS Ticonderoga (CV-14) Grumman F6F Hellcat fighters prepare to take off for strikes against targets in Manila Bay. The two leading planes are F6F-5N night fighters, with wing-mounted radar. Photograph is dated 9 January 1945, but may have been taken during the 5-6 November 1944 attacks.


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## davparlr (May 29, 2007)

All the pictures I could open were great. I love that era where the prop planes were in there descent and the jets were just stretching their wings.

I was not happy when they started naming the carriers after people.


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## syscom3 (May 29, 2007)

"Ode to the CVE"

Verse 1:
Navy fliers fly off the big carriers
Army fliers aren't seen oe'r the sea
But we're in the lousy Marine Corps
So we get these dang CVE's!

Chorus:
Cuts and guts, cuts and guts.
The guys that make carriers are nuts. Are nuts!
Cuts and guts, cuts and guts.
The guys that make carriers are nuts.

Verse 2:
O Midway has thousand-foot runways
And Leyte, eight hundred and ten.
We'd still not have much of a carrier
With two of ours laid end to end.

Chorus:
Cuts and guts, cuts and guts.
The guys that make carriers are nuts. Are nuts!
Cuts and guts, cuts and guts.
The guys that make carriers are nuts.

Verse 3:
Our catapult shots are so hairy,
Our catapult gear is red hot
It never goes off when you're ready,
It always goes off when you're not!

Chorus:
Cuts and guts, cuts and guts.
The guys that make carriers are nuts. Are nuts!
Cuts and guts, cuts and guts.
The guys that make carriers are nuts.

Verse 4:
We envy the boys on the big ones.
And we'd trade in a minute or two,
'Cause we'd like to see those poor bastards
Try doing the things we do!

Chorus:
Cuts and guts, cuts and guts.
The guys that make carriers are nuts. Are nuts!
Cuts and guts, cuts and guts.
The guys that make carriers are nuts.

Verse 5:
Some day when this fracas is over
And back at El Toro we'll be,
We'll load up with rockets and napalm
And we'll sink every damned CVE!

Chorus:
Cuts and guts, cuts and guts.
The guys that make carriers are nuts. Are nuts!
Cuts and guts, cuts and guts.
The guys that make carriers are nuts.


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## DOUGRD (May 29, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> B***dy hell! I just saw on the Discovery Channel about USS Eisenhower a guy that was sucked up in the intake of a A-6 Intruder because he forgot to duck when passing....one second he was there and the next GONE!! Miracuously the poor sod survived with only minor injuries..made me feel sick.



If you're talking about the one I think you are "Miraculously" falls way short of the mark. That guy pulled off a "one in a million" life experience. I worked the flight deck onboard USS America, USS Eisenhower, USS Tripoli (LPH), USS Guadalcanal (LPH), USS John F Kennedy, and the helo pad on the USS Ponce (LPD) and I've seen things happen that would make your hair stand on end but this lad certainly takes the prize!!! PLEASE NOTE EVERYONE!!! When I listed the ships flight decks I was on during my career I DO NOT mean it to sound like I'm bragging or any B.S. like that--I'M NOT!! I know plenty of sailors who spent more time "HAZE GREY AND UNDERWAY" than me. (But God help me, I loved it!)


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## DOUGRD (May 29, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> What names would you like to see?


I like the traditional names too. But something else you must consider when naming ships...nick names! It's got to have a good nick name. The USS John F. Kennedy is called "Big John" The USS Eisenhower is called "Ike" the USS Enterprise is the "Big E" of course, the USS Saratoga was the "Sara" (or Sorry Sara to most sailors) So what are some good names that would also evolve into good nick names?


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## syscom3 (May 30, 2007)

DOUGRD said:


> I like the traditional names too. But something else you must consider when naming ships...nick names! It's got to have a good nick name. The USS John F. Kennedy is called "Big John" The USS Eisenhower is called "Ike" the USS Enterprise is the "Big E" of course, the USS Saratoga was the "Sara" (or Sorry Sara to most sailors) So what are some good names that would also evolve into good nick names?



Bon Homme Richard = Bonnie Dick.


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## Lucky13 (May 30, 2007)

I've always liked USS Yorktown for some odd reason. My dad had a relative that was in Korea on a carrier, don't know which one yet, still searching and later on USS Coral Sea. So you could say that I'm a bit of a USS Yorktown and USS Coral Sea fanatic....


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## R Leonard (May 30, 2007)

Way back to the first three photos from USS Coral Sea. 

This is during the a Med deployment and show aircraft belonging to Air Group 17. Most of those AD-4’s you see there were from VA-175, commanded by Lt Cdr John E “Blackie” Kennedy. Kennedy’s assigned plane you can just barely see at the far left of the photo, #501. The F4U-5 with the 407 side number belonged to VF-174. The AD-4Q near the top center with the double zeros (“00”) is the CAG’s plane, my father’s at the time. He had been CO of VF-171 and moved up to CAG when his predecessor moved up from CAG to Ops Officer. The VF-171 F2H Banshees are way in the port aft of the flight deck in the second picture. These are from the 9 Sep 1950 to 1 Feb 1951 cruise. 

Third picture is from a later Med cruise, around 1952, and shows aircraft from Air Group 4 (“F”) with VMF-211 attached (“AF”) and VC-33 detachment (“SS”). The F4Us with the 300 series side numbers are from VF-43.

Regards,

Rich

VF-171 squadron insignia


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## FLYBOYJ (May 30, 2007)

syscom3 said:


> Bon Homme Richard = Bonnie Dick.




Kittyhawk = Kitty litter

Lincoln = Stinking Lincoln

Stennis = Stinkin Stennis


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## Lucky13 (May 30, 2007)

Nicknames of the USS Coral Sea(any more???):

Ageless Warrior
Coral Maru
San Francisco's Own
The Natural
The Big Sea or The Big 'C'
The Operational Queen of the Seventh Fleet
Best In The West
Mustang (Call sign on Yankee Station)

..."other" nicknames that made the rounds: 

Cruel Sea
Cruel Maru
Hotel 43
CarlC
Olongapo's Own
Coral Maroon
Three Screw Maru
Coral S***
USS Oral Sex
Coral Crunch


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## R Leonard (May 30, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> I've always liked USS Yorktown for some odd reason. My dad had a relative that was in Korea on a carrier, don't know which one yet, still searching and later on USS Coral Sea. So you could say that I'm a bit of a USS Yorktown and USS Coral Sea fanatic....



My father operated off the 'old' USS Yorktown (CV-5) from June 41 through the bitter end at Midway, in VF-42 and TAD to VF-3. Combat at Lae-Salamaua, Tulagi, Coral Sea, and Midway, not to mention hours of boring holes in the sky with nothing going on the off chance the Japanese might decide to show up.

Later as a squadron commander (VF-171) and CAG (CVG-17) he flew off USS Coral Sea. 171 was the Navy's first jet squadron to carrier qualify, this during his command tour.

He directed the team that came up with the specs for the A-6 bomber, oddly enough the type my brother flew in as an NFO in the greater southeast asian war games . . . in VA-35 . . . off USS Coral Sea. 

I remember when my father was CO of USS Ranger in 61-62 and both Coral Sea and Ranger were docked at Alameda . . . you could stand on the flight deck of Ranger and look across the pier into the bridge of the Coral Sea.

Regards,

Rich


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## Lucky13 (May 30, 2007)

Thanks for telling Rich, much appreciated!


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## FLYBOYJ (May 30, 2007)

R Leonard said:


> I remember when my father was CO of USS Ranger in 61-62 and both Coral Sea and Ranger were docked at Alameda . . . you could stand on the flight deck of Ranger and look across the pier into the bridge of the Coral Sea.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Rich




As usual, great stuff Rich! Here's one for you, took it at Pearl, 1998. I was told this was the first time two fleet carriers were together in Pearl Harbor since the attack!


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## DOUGRD (May 30, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Kittyhawk = Kitty litter
> 
> Lincoln = Stinking Lincoln
> 
> Stennis = Stinkin Stennis



Actually the name I've always heard for the Kittyhawk was "shitty kitty" Some others I remember USS Forrestal was "forest Fire" Sorta cold considering the conflagration that took place onboard. USS Shangrila was "Shitty Shang" USS America was "Amer-ee-ca Maru" and of course my all time favorite USS Nimitz " That F*#king Show Boat" As viewed by those loyal and humble sons of King Neptune onboard the IKE!


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## DOUGRD (May 30, 2007)

R Leonard said:


> My father operated off the 'old' USS Yorktown (CV-5) from June 41 through the bitter end at Midway, in VF-42 and TAD to VF-3. Combat at Lae-Salamaua, Tulagi, Coral Sea, and Midway, Later as a squadron commander (VF-171) and CAG (CVG-17) he flew off USS Coral Sea. 171 was the Navy's first jet squadron to carrier qualify, this during his command tour.
> 
> He directed the team that came up with the specs for the A-6 bomber, oddly enough the type my brother flew in as an NFO in the greater southeast asian war games . . . in VA-35 . . . off USS Coral Sea.
> 
> ...


**********************************************************
RICH!! YOU'VE GOT TO START A THREAD ON YOUR FAMILY HISTORY IF YOU HAVEN"T ALREADY. Being a newbee to this site I don't know if you did or not.


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## Lucky13 (May 31, 2007)

Or any carrier related stories from anybody.....


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## Lucky13 (May 31, 2007)

Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat fighter, of Fighting Squadron Six (VF-6) has its six .50 caliber machine guns tested on the flight deck of USS Enterprise (CV-6), 10 April 1942.





Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat fighter (nicknamed "Rosenblatt's Reply") on board USS Suwanee (ACV-27), circa late 1942 or early 1943. The plane bears traces of the yellow Operation "Torch" marking around its national insignia.





Grumman F4F-3 Wildcat fighter, of Fighting Squadron Three (VF-3) prepares to take off from USS Saratoga (CV-3), circa October 1941.





Grumman F4F-3 Wildcat fighters, of Fighting Squadron Three (VF-3) on board USS Saratoga in early October 1941.
Plane on the aircraft elevator is 3-F-15 (Bureau # 3982), piloted by Ensign Gayle Hermann.





USS Enterprise (CV-6) Aviation Metalsmiths assemble a Grumman F4F-3 fighter on the carrier's hangar deck, 28 October 1941. The plane bears the markings of Fighting Squadron Three (VF-3), including a "Felix the Cat" insignia under the cockpit windshield.
Note spare airplanes triced up in the hangar overhead, including TBD-1 torpedo planes (with markings of VT-3) and SBD scout bombers (with markings of VS-2).





Grumman F4F-3 fighter undergoes maintenance on the hangar deck of USS Enterprise (CV-6), 28 October 1941. The plane bears the markings of Fighting Squadron Three (VF-3), including a "Felix the Cat" insignia under the cockpit windshield.
The part held by the Chief Petty Officer in the foreground bears the number 3973, and is possibly the Bureau # of this plane (# 3973 was the Bu# of an F4F-3). Note aircraft propellers stowed in the hangar overhead.





Grumman F4F Wildcat fighter takes off from USS Enterprise (CV-6), while she was operating in the Coral Sea area, 18 May 1942.





USS Long Island (AVG-1) a Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat fighter on the catapult, ready for take-off, 17 June 1942. Several more F4F-4s are waiting their turn for launch. All planes are from squadron VGS-1. Note that Long Island's catapult runs diagonally across the flight deck, from starboard toward the port bow.





USS Long Island (AVG-1) crewmen spotting a Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat fighter on the ship's hangar deck, 17 June 1942. Several other F4F-4s are present, as are Curtiss SOC-3A "Seagull" scout-observation planes. All are from squadron VGS-1.





North Africa Operation, November 1942 testing machine guns of Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat fighters aboard USS Ranger (CV-4), while en route from the U.S. to North African waters, circa early November 1942.
Note the special markings used during this operation, with a yellow ring painted around the national insignia on aircraft fuselages.





North Africa Invasion, November 1942 a Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat fighter taking off from USS Ranger (CV-4) to attack targets ashore during the invasion of Morocco, circa 8 November 1942.
Note: Army observation planes in the left middle distance;
Loudspeakers and radar antenna on Ranger's mast.





USS Long Island (ACV-1) a Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat fighter, equipped with ferry tanks, on the carrier's catapult ready for launching, during flight operations on 6 March 1943.
Note that the catapult runs diagonally across the flight deck.
Planes parked in the background include more F4F-4s and Vought F4U-1s.





Battle off Samar, 25 October 1944 USS Kitkun Bay (CVE-71) prepares to launch FM-2 Wildcat fighters during the action. In the center distance, Japanese shells are splashing near USS White Plains (CVE-66).





FM-2 Wildcat fighter prepares to take off from USS Charger (CVE-30) during training operations in the Chesapeake Bay area, 8 May 1944. Another FM-2 is passing overhead with its tail hook down, apparently having received a "wave-off" due to the carrier's fouled flight deck.





FM-2 Wildcat fighter receives the "launch" signal on USS Makin Island (CVE-93), 1945.


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## Lucky13 (May 31, 2007)

USS Yorktown (CV-5) Douglas SBD-3 Dauntless scout bombers preparing to take off, during operations in the Coral Sea, 18 April 1942. The first plane is from Scouting Squadron Five (VS-5). Note that it has no insignia painted under its starboard wing, and that the insignia below its port wing is much smaller than that on the next SBD.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) two Douglas SBD-3 Dauntless scout bombers of Scouting Squadron Five (VS-5) fly past the ship, during operations in the Coral Sea, circa April 1942. Planes parked on the flight deck, in the foreground, are Grumman F4F-3 "Wildcat" fighters of Fighting Squadron 42 (VF-42).





Douglas SBD-2 Dauntless scout bombers of Scouting Squadron Six (VS-6) composite photograph of 9 planes in flight, with USS Enterprise (CV-6) and a plane guard destroyer below.
The original photo is dated 27 October 1941. Note differences in ocean surface wave patterns between the upper and lower images, skillfully blended to combine the two photographs.





USS Enterprise (CV-6) an SBD Dauntless scout-bomber and five TBD-1 "Devastator" torpedo planes prepare to take-off from the carrier during operations in the south Pacific area, 4 May 1942.
Note launching officer making arm signals in the lower left-center. Take-offs averaged one every thirty seconds.


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## Matt308 (May 31, 2007)

The pic where you note the propellers overhead in the hanger... Looked like complete airplanes hanging from the ceiling! Never knew that was a common practice. The block and tackle necessary for higher sea states must have been an engineering marvel in and of itself.


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## R Leonard (May 31, 2007)

From the time period, October 1941, and the mish-mash of squadrons (VS-2, VT-3, VF-3 and even some with no squadron markings at all) shown aboard Enterprise (the normal EAG consisting of VB-6, VF-6, VS-6 and VT-6) and the fact that so many are triced into the overhead, I would not be at all surprised if the photos were of a transport run bringing replacement aircraft out to Pearl from the west coast. 

Rich


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## Lucky13 (May 31, 2007)

USS Yorktown (CV-5) in Hampton Roads, Virginia, with her port anchor out, 30 October 1937. Note Landing Signal Officer platform near the front of her flight deck, for use in landing planes over the bow.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) anchored in Hampton Roads, Virginia, 30 October 1937





USS Yorktown (CV-5) anchored in Hampton Roads, Virginia, 30 October 1937.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) anchored in Hampton Roads, Virginia, 30 October 1937.
Boat booms are rigged out, with boats tied up to them.
Note details of the ship's stern, including her name, structure supporting the after flight deck, and motor launch stowed athwartship on platform between the main and flight decks.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) anchored in Hampton Roads, Virginia, 30 October 1937.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) anchored in Hampton Roads, Virginia, 30 October 1937.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) anchored in Hampton Roads, Virginia, 30 October 1937.
Boat booms are rigged out. The ship is flying the two-star flag of Rear Admiral Charles A. Blakely, Commander, Carrier Division Two. Note anchors, jack flying forward, and retractable navigation light mast on the flight deck.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) in Hampton Roads, Virginia, 30 October 1937.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) underway during builder's trials, April 1937.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) photographed during builder's trials, May 1937.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) at the Newport News Shipbuilding and Dry Dock Company, Newport News, Virginia, in June 1937, while preparing for sea trials. Note her chrome yellow flight deck markings, applied over maroon-stained douglas fir deck planking.
USS Enterprise (CV-6) is fitting out in the drydock in upper center. USS Boise (CL-47) is two piers over from Yorktown, also fitting out. Several merchant ships are also present.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) making 17.5 knots, astern, during preliminary standardization trials, run # 41, off Rockland, Maine, 12-21 July 1937. She is pushing up a handsome "moustache" stern wave. Carriers of this class were required to make good speed astern, to allow landing planes over the bow and launching over the stern if necessary.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) tied up at the Newport News Shipbuilding and Dry Dock Company, Newport News, Virginia, 4 August 1937, following sea trials.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) alongside a pier at Naval Operating Base, Norfolk, Virginia, 2 October 1937.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) anchored in the Caribbean Sea area, 17 January 1938, during her shakedown cruise.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) anchored off Gonaives Haiti, 23 February 1939, following Fleet Problem XX. Photographed by Chief Photographer Mihalovic, from USS Enterprise (CV-6).





USS Yorktown (CV-5) anchored in a Haitian harbor, circa 1938-40.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) at Naval Air Station, North Island, San Diego, California, in June 1940, embarking aircraft and vehicles prior to sailing for Hawaii. Aircraft types on her flight deck include TBD-1, BT-1, SBC-3, F3F-2, F3F-3, SB2U, JRF, J2F and JRS-1. Some of these planes were on board for transportation, while others were members of the ship's air group.
Three Torpedo Squadron Five (VT-5) TBDs at the after end of the flight deck are painted in experimental camouflage schemes tested during Fleet Problem XXI.


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## renrich (May 31, 2007)

Good fotos, in one near Haiti it looks like a Queen Elisabeth class BB in the background.


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## Lucky13 (Jun 1, 2007)

USS Saratoga (CV-3) Grumman F6F-3 Hellcat fighters on the flight deck, as a TBM torpedo plane approaches to land, circa 1943-44.
Photographed by Commander Edward Steichen, USNR.
Note open elevator well in the foreground and flight deck crewmen chocking wheels of the F6Fs.





USS Saratoga (CV-3) underway at sea, circa 1942. Planes on deck include five Grumman F4F fighters, six Douglas SBD scout bombers and one Grumman TBF torpedo plane.


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## Matt308 (Jun 1, 2007)

Douglas Fir deck planking on the Yorktown?!!? Crap that wood is SOFT! You can dent it with your fingernail.


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## R Leonard (Jun 1, 2007)

Douglas fir was the standard USN carrier flight deck covering. Soft? well, maybe, but it had the resilience to landings and the weather resistance the Navy wanted. When you read about carriers and you see reference to teak decks, then you know someone did not do their homework. 

In the long run, a good decision since the Japanese ended sitting on all the really good teak producing areas in SE asia.

Rich


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## Lucky13 (Jun 1, 2007)

Cheers for the info Rich!


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## Matt308 (Jun 1, 2007)

Interesting, I've built furniture out of Fir. It has bands of soft and hard wood grain in it. Certainly plentiful, but then I wouldn't think that would have been a problem given the amount of carriers and the plentiful supply of forestry. I wonder if it has something to do with a salt water resiliency. Because it is SOFT.


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## pbfoot (Jun 1, 2007)

I always thought Douglas Fir is a hard wood I might be mistaken and I think Erich would have to be the resident expert but I did copy this exerpt about it 
"Douglas-fir wood has been highly valued since the first Europeans exported lumber in the 18th century. This dense wood is exceptionally hard, stiff and durable. Its strength and availability in large dimensions make it outstanding for heavy-duty construction such as wharves, trestles, bridge parts and commercial buildings."


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## R Leonard (Jun 1, 2007)

Of the conifers, pines, firs, etc., I believe that fir is amongst those that could be termed hard as opposed to, say, white pine used for framing. I, too, have made furniture, a mirowave stand with butcher block insert cutting area, some 20 years ago and still in use, from douglas fir. I used it specifically for its durability. Compared to oak or pecan, yeah, it's a little soft, but it is solid enough for most uses, including repeated whacks by landing gear and arrestor cables, a certainly plentiful.

Rich


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## pbfoot (Jun 2, 2007)

R Leonard said:


> Of the conifers, pines, firs, etc., I believe that fir is amongst those that could be termed hard as opposed to, say, white pine used for framing. I, too, have made furniture, a mirowave stand with butcher block insert cutting area, some 20 years ago and still in use, from douglas fir. I used it specifically for its durability. Compared to oak or pecan, yeah, it's a little soft, but it is solid enough for most uses, including repeated whacks by landing gear and arrestor cables, a certainly plentiful.
> 
> Rich


We use spruce exclusively for framing


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## Lucky13 (Jun 3, 2007)

Kamikaze strikes USS Santee (CVE-29), 25 October 1944.





Fire crews at work after flaming deck crash; February 22, 1943.










Doesn't these two pics make you seasick....?





This is a photo of FM-2 Wildcat D-12. It has just crashed into the barrier on the USS Sargent Bay CVE-83. The date is August 27,1944. The pilot was Lt. (JG) Bob Hambley of VC-79. He survived the crash,and is still with us.





Okinawa Campaign, 1945 — Ships in Kerama Retto anchorage spread an anti-kamikaze smoke screen, 3 May 1945, seen from USS Sargent Bay (CVE-83). TBM and FM-2 aircraft are on her flight deck. Ship in left center is USS Pinkney (APH-2), which had been damaged by a Kamikaze on 28 April.










A couple F6F-5's prepare to take off from USS Steamer Bay (CVE-87), date and place unknown. Both Hellcats had been ferried by the escort carrier and squadron or carrier markings had not yet been applied. The lead plane is an F6F-5N night fighter, and has an APS-6 radar installed in a starboard wing-mounted radome.





An FM-2 Wildcat of VC-93 snags the arresting gear, July 9, 1945. Note three launch stubs for 5" High Velocity Air Rockets (HVARs) under each wing — these were fitted to late-production FM-2's.





Marianas Operation, June 1944 — TBM "Avenger" bombers prepare to take off from USS Monterey (CVL-26) to attack targets on Tinian, June 1944.





USS San Jacinto (CVL-30) rolling heavily and pitching in rough seas, while en route to raid Okinawa with Task Force 58, 6 October 1944. TBM Avenger torpedo planes of Torpedo Squadron 51 are parked at right, with landing gear well-lashed to the deck. Note "palisade" wind-break in elevated position across the flight deck, forward of the planes.





USS San Jacinto (CVL-30) rolling heavily, October 1944.





Lieutenant Commander Albert B. Cahn gives the "Take-off" signal to a TBM-1C "Avenger" of Torpedo Squadron 51, during exercises on 16 May 1944.





Battle off Cape Engaño, 25 October 1944 — Arming a Torpedo Squadron 51 (VT-51) TBM torpedo bomber on USS San Jacinto (CVL-30). Probably taken before the squadron's planes attacked the Japanese carrier force. Torpedo is a Mark 13, fitted with wooden water-entry shrouds around its nose and tail.





One of VB-17's SB2C Helldivers taxiing out for launch, March 1945.





Sixteen F6F Hellcats from VF-17 running up their Pratt Whitney R-2800's on April 6, 1945 to attack the Japanese battleship Yamato and her escorts.





View looking aft from the ship's island as she steams with other carriers during a western Pacific gunnery practice session, circa June 1945. Next ship astern is USS Bon Homme Richard (CV-31), firing her 5"/38 battery to starboard. Two small aircraft carriers (CVL) are beyond her. Note yellow flight deck markings on Hornet and TBM and SB2C aircraft parked aft.





Third Fleet aircraft carriers at anchor in Ulithi Atoll, 8 December 1944, during a break from operations in the Philippines area. The carriers are (from front to back): USS Wasp (CV-18.), USS Yorktown (CV-10), USS Hornet (CV-12), USS Hancock (CV-19) and USS Ticonderoga (CV-14). Wasp, Yorktown and Ticonderoga are all painted in camouflage Measure 33, Design 10a. Photographed from a USS Ticonderoga plane.





January 21, 1945.

1328: VT 124, Bu #23539 [a General Motors TBM-3 Avenger], pilot, LT(JG) C.R. Dean, 298954, and crewmen F.J. Blake, ARM3c, and D.E. Zima, AOM2c, made a normal landing and taxied forward. As the plane reached a point abreast the island a violent explosion occurred, believed to have been caused by the detonation of two (2) 500 lb. bombs adrift in the plane's bomb bay. The immediate results of the explosion were: casualties: killed - 62; critically injured - 46; seriously injured - 25; slightly injured - 20. A 10x16 foot hole in the flight deck, gallery deck area in the vicinity demolished, inboard side signal bridge wrecked. Three airplanes demolished. Numerous shrapnel holes throughout the island structure. Fires broke out on the flight, gallery, and hangar decks. Hauled clear of the formation and commenced maneuvering at various courses and speeds in an attempt to control the winds over the deck, and with high speed turns, to wash flooding water out of the hangar deck.

1342: Fire in hangar deck under control.

1405: Fire in gallery deck under control.

1406: Hancock planes in the vicinity commenced landing on other carriers of the Task Group.

1500: Rejoined station in formation.

1510: Emergency repairs to the flight deck completed.





40mm Quad Machine Gun Mount firing on board USS Hornet (CV-12), circa February 1945, probably during gunnery practice. The original picture caption identifies the photo as having been taken during Task Force 58's raid on Japan, 16 February 1945. However, helmetless members of the gun crew, and rolled up shirt sleeves, strongly indicate that the occasion was in warmer climes and not while in combat. View looks aft on the port side, with the carrier's port quarter 5"/38 guns just beyond the 40mm mount. Note ready-service ammunition and spent shell casings at right; men passing 4-round clips to loaders at left.

From NHC and NSHC....


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## Lucky13 (Jun 6, 2007)

"Following deck handling trials with a Meteor prototype in 1945, two Meteor IIIs were fitted with an arresting hook and reinforced landing gear, and used for carrier trials in 1948. The two aircraft performed takeoffs and landings from the HMS ILLUSTRIOUS and HMS IMPLACABLE. The Royal Navy was impressed by the navalized Meteor, but decided to obtain the Supermarine Attacker instead." 

Anyone having any idea why??


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 6, 2007)

Very nice pics up there. I really like the ones with the rolling and pitching ships. I dont like boats and that is why I never joined the Navy. That would just scare me that the damn thing would roll over and capsize.


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## trackend (Jun 9, 2007)

I agree Adler I have a shot of HMS Fencer on her beam ends and the flight deck is about the same angle as the USS San Jancinto the caption reads 22 degree roll, in the night a 40 degree roll was recorded. Too much for me by about 30 degrees


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## Mike64 (Jun 10, 2007)

All -

regarding straight deck vs angled deck - I have to admit axial was a bigger risk, but today, nite ops are the real thrill!

A "Fresnel Lens" has been used in lighthouses for at least decades, I think. It is simply slotted so that it shines in certain verticle arcs, for easier identification and directional illumination.

Mike C
USN / Ret
Fleet A-4 / A-6


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## R Leonard (Jun 10, 2007)

The first Fresnel lens was installed in a French lighthouse in 1822. By the mid 1850's all existing US lighthouses had been converted to Fresnel lenses. 

R


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## pbfoot (Jun 10, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> ....
> 1956 USS Coral Sea CVA-43 - In port at Norfolk Naval Shipyard. The new "super carrier" the USS Forrestal CV-59 is tied up on the next pier over. Note the size difference between the Midway Class and Forrestal .



Showed these pics to a couple of RCNAS guys and they asked "where was the crane" apparently if you went past the net the crane was there to impede you


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## Mike64 (Jun 10, 2007)

Regarding Carrier names -

All US commissioned warships (USS) are technically named by the Secretary of the Navy. He obvious;ly considers public inputs, deference to Congress, Navy recommendations, etc. BUT - by public law, written by Congess a long time ago, it IS SecNav's choice.

GEORGE H.W.BUSH (CVN77) has been christened (i.e. launched/floating, formally named, being fitted out). She will be placed "In Commission, in Service" and become USS GEORGE H. W. BUSH (CVN77) in Nov 2008.

I don't like the Prez name stuff either, except for USS DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER (CVN69). I think he was a great President in a difficult time, and a lot of things he did were remarkable in relation to the cold war. He was a quiet, decent man, and not a publicity hound, and I think he has never got the credit he deserves. 

Incidentally, when a commissioned warship is "retired", or decommissioned, she is no longer referred to as USS "something" - it technically becomes EX "something", in Navy terms. USS JOHN F. KENNEDY (CV67) was recently decommissioned, now is officially EX-JOHN F. KENNEDY (CV67), "Not in Commission, In Reserve" - in other words, she is "mothballed". Eventually, like EX-SARATOGA (CV60), they are "stricken" and become "Not In Commission, In Excess", awaiting the cutter's torch or other use such as a possible museum.


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## Mike64 (Jun 10, 2007)

OOPS! 1 small correction: 

CVN77 will be GEORGE H W BUSH (CVN77), no periods after initials


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## Lucky13 (Jun 11, 2007)

Cheers for the explanation Mike64....


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## Mike64 (Jun 11, 2007)

syscom3 said:


> Bon Homme Richard = Bonnie Dick.



Good example, but my favorite was USS HANCOCK (CV-19).

We called her the "Hand Job" in the Vietnam era.


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## Lucky13 (Jun 11, 2007)

Gentlemen..... I'm trying to figure out which fighters etc. that USS Yorktown had in her air groups before the war. Any ideas? Did she have the Boeing F4B's, Curtiss BF2C's for example?


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## R Leonard (Jun 11, 2007)

Fighters Complements USS YORKTOWN CV-5

JUNE 1937
VF-7B: 6 F2F-1

JUNE 1938
VF-5: 19 F2F-1, 1 O3U-3

JUNE 1939
VF-5; 18 F3F-3, 1 F2F-1, 1 SU-3

JUNE 1940
VF-5: 22 F3F-3, 1 SBC-3

JUNE 1941
VF-42: 18 F4F-3

Rich


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## Lucky13 (Jun 11, 2007)

Thanks a lot Rich!


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## Mike64 (Jun 11, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> Douglas Fir deck planking on the Yorktown?!!? Crap that wood is SOFT! You can dent it with your fingernail.



My sources say deck planking on ESSEX / TICO Classes was teak, at least after SCB-27C conversions; later, removed and plated over, covered with good old NON-SKID epoxy and aggragate materials.


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## Mike64 (Jun 11, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> Glad to be of service lads... A question though. What happens to the pilot in cases like these? It was obviously NOT is fault, right? Could he had done something else? Will he have to face a, not a courtmarcial(?) maybe, but something similar?



Lucky -

Aircrew, or anyone else does not get Court Martialed for a TRUE accident; there would be an Accident Investigation Board, and administrative action taken as required. However, one exception would be some idiot like Tom Cruise performing unauthorized maneuvers and crashing or damaging something - they would likely get Court Martialed, dismissed from the Navy on an "Administrative Discharge", and their wings would be melted down for bus tokens!

IF the pilot of the AJ was at fault because he landed fast / heavy, he may be assigned a desk job, or formally removed from flight status for good. However, I think the LSO would have got some real heat too, for letting him land fast, if that were the case.

Another chance might be that the arresting gear engine was set wrong (it DOES happen -), or had some type of mechanical failure so the cross deck pendant did not pay out properly.

In those cases, there may be some minor written reprimands, etc, but the mishap board report would recommend that various units such as the Naval Air Systems Command look into changing designs or procedures to make sure it doesn't happen again.

If the pilot didn't do anything wrong, he and his crew might even get Letters of Commendation for just carrying out proper procedures and surviving the event!


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## Mike64 (Jun 11, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> Cheers fellas! Does anyone of you know how many of the Essex class carriers that is still waiting for their destiny, or are they all scrapped by now?
> 
> Lucky -
> 
> ...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 11, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> Glad to be of service lads... A question though. What happens to the pilot in cases like these? It was obviously NOT is fault, right? Could he had done something else? Will he have to face a, not a courtmarcial(?) maybe, but something similar?



As Mike64 stated up there you would not be punished for a "true" accident. More than likely rewarded if you were able to bring the bird down good eneogh for everyone to survive.

When I was crewing helos in the Army and a "true" accident would happen it there was accident board to investigate and find out what happened. All crew members would have to "piss and bleed" to make sure there was no alcohol or drugs in our system and then as soon as the board was completed and everything was found to have been a "real" accident everyone was returned to flight status as soon as possible.


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## Lucky13 (Jun 11, 2007)

Thanks a bunch for the info lads, much appreciated! Another question...those "hats" or what they're called that you see on some of the deck crews in pre- and WWII photos , were they coloured matching their duties as deck captains, ordnancemen etc....


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 11, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> Thanks a bunch for the info lads, much appreciated! Another question...those "hats" or what they're called that you see on some of the deck crews in pre- and WWII photos , were they coloured matching their duties as deck captains, ordnancemen etc....



Here ya go....

Colors On The Flight Deck


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## maxs75 (Jun 11, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> Gentlemen..... I'm trying to figure out which fighters etc. that USS Yorktown had in her air groups before the war. Any ideas? Did she have the Boeing F4B's, Curtiss BF2C's for example?



Lucky13,
try Index

HTH

Rich,
the USN official chronology reports that:



> May 31, 1941, Sat.
> 
> TG 1 (Rear Admiral Arthur B. Cook), comprising Yorktown (CV-5) (VF 41, VS 41, VS 42, and VT 5), heavy cruiser Vincennes (CA-44), and destroyers Sampson (DD-394) and Gwin (DD-433), departs Bermuda for 4,550-mile neutrality patrol that will conclude at Hampton Roads, Virginia, on 12 June.



Do You have different info about VF-42?

Max


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## Lucky13 (Jun 11, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Here ya go....
> 
> Colors On The Flight Deck



Damn it!  The website seem to be down, I can't get to it anyhoo.... 

Cheers fellas!

Oh! btw....which would you say was the first really successful USN carrier plane? That goes for the FAA and IJN as well....


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 11, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> Damn it!  The website seem to be down, I can't get to it anyhoo....
> 
> Cheers fellas!
> 
> Oh! btw....which would you say was the first really successful USN carrier plane? That goes for the FAA and IJN as well....



Here ya go....


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## Lucky13 (Jun 11, 2007)

Much appreciated FLYBOJ!


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## R Leonard (Jun 11, 2007)

Max –

The entire period of the neutrality patrols was a mix and match of squadrons, Navy and Marine Corps, deploying on available Atlantic Fleet carriers. Even from your noted entry in the chronology there are VF-41, VS-41, and VS-42 from Ranger and VT-5 from Yorktown. Cruise ranged from a week to three weeks, sometimes more, in length and squadrons rotated through.

VF-42 went aboard Yorktown upon its return from the cruise you noted and stayed aboard as Yorktown’s VF squadron. This was due to VF-5 going ashore for transition from F3Fs to F4Fs. 

I’d have to drag out my Yorktown deployment data to list all the squadrons that served aboard Yorktown from her return to from the Pacific to the end of June. 

I was shooting for the final fixed arrangement which was in place by the end of June.

Rich


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## Lucky13 (Jun 11, 2007)

Thanks for all your work Rich! I love reading it! Hopefully it won't be too long before we see a USS Yorktown active in the USN again....preferably a carrier!


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## Mike64 (Jun 11, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> As Mike64 stated up there you would not be punished for a "true" accident. More than likely rewarded if you were able to bring the bird down good eneogh for everyone to survive.
> 
> When I was crewing helos in the Army and a "true" accident would happen it there was accident board to investigate and find out what happened. All crew members would have to "piss and bleed" to make sure there was no alcohol or drugs in our system and then as soon as the board was completed and everything was found to have been a "real" accident everyone was returned to flight status as soon as possible.



Good point, chief; in these days, urine and blood testing are a big part of any incident. Back in the AJ days, and really up to the Vietnam era, such testing wasn't even in existence, as best I recall. 

Once MJ hit the scene, it was a real struggle until we got urine testing figured out and used for evidence against a smoker. Of course, lots of other stuff out there now, but testing is routine and a great thing, in my opinion. 

The smartest thing I ever saw was the CO of USS SARATOGA (CV-60); we did not have piss tests, but Chiefs, Petty Officers - all supervisors - pretty much knew who was using MJ, but it was real hard to bring him up with hard evidence, plus proof of "possession and intent". So ,the skipper just turned to everyone and said "Look, these little shits are hiding when they are doing stuff; most likely it's out on a sponson, in a void, something like that. SOOOooo they are smoking in an unauthorized space - a Courts Martial Offense on a ship. Write them up for that" - It cleared up the problem in a real hurry!!


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## pbfoot (Jun 11, 2007)

They also made us controllers do the same in any incident .....


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## Captn javy Wilson (Jun 11, 2007)

Ah man those are great pics if you have any on the Lexington or the Yorktown to give me that would be nice.


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## syscom3 (Jun 11, 2007)

> Captain of TEAL Squad in UNFROGIVEN



Whats a "unfrogiven"?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 12, 2007)

Everyone has asked him that.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 12, 2007)

Mike64 said:


> Good point, chief; in these days, urine and blood testing are a big part of any incident. Back in the AJ days, and really up to the Vietnam era, such testing wasn't even in existence, as best I recall.
> 
> Once MJ hit the scene, it was a real struggle until we got urine testing figured out and used for evidence against a smoker. Of course, lots of other stuff out there now, but testing is routine and a great thing, in my opinion.
> 
> The smartest thing I ever saw was the CO of USS SARATOGA (CV-60); we did not have piss tests, but Chiefs, Petty Officers - all supervisors - pretty much knew who was using MJ, but it was real hard to bring him up with hard evidence, plus proof of "possession and intent". So ,the skipper just turned to everyone and said "Look, these little shits are hiding when they are doing stuff; most likely it's out on a sponson, in a void, something like that. SOOOooo they are smoking in an unauthorized space - a Courts Martial Offense on a ship. Write them up for that" - It cleared up the problem in a real hurry!!



I fortunatly never had to piss and bleed. Fortunatly for obvious accidents such as when we lost both engines they did not make us do it.


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## maxs75 (Jun 12, 2007)

R Leonard said:


> Max –
> VF-42 went aboard Yorktown upon its return from the cruise you noted and stayed aboard as Yorktown’s VF squadron. This was due to VF-5 going ashore for transition from F3Fs to F4Fs.
> 
> I’d have to drag out my Yorktown deployment data to list all the squadrons that served aboard Yorktown from her return to from the Pacific to the end of June.
> ...



Rich,
thank You! Great inoformations as usual!
Were squadrons VB-5 and VS-5 getting SBDs instead of BTs and SBCs at the same time? 
Looking at the deployments for Neutrality patrols , it seems that they weren't at sea for a pretty long time.

Max


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## Lucky13 (Jun 13, 2007)

Since there are talks about Fw 190 as a carrier born aircraft and what needs to be done to an airframe to suitable for that kinda hard work, I was wondering what was made to the Spitfire airframe to become the Seafire?


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## R Leonard (Jun 13, 2007)

> Were squadrons VB-5 and VS-5 getting SBDs instead of BTs and SBCs at the same time?
> Looking at the deployments for Neutrality patrols , it seems that they weren't at sea for a pretty long time.




Max -

I really should avoid doing things from memory, it just isn't quite what it used to be . . .

Try this . . .

USS Yorktown Atlantic Fleet Activities 1941

Arrived in Bermuda from PacFlt on 12 May 1941. 
Aboard were VB-5 (BT-1), VF-5 (F3F-3), VS-5 (SBC-3), and VT-5 (TBD-1)

Departed Bermuda 23 May 1941
Aboard were VF-41 (F4F-3), VS-41 (SB2U-2), and VT-5
(VB-5, VF-5, and VS-5 were transferred to Ranger for transport to Norfolk)
Patrolled east approaching the Cape Verde Islands cruising some 4550 miles. 
Air Group logged 1200 flight hours.

Arrived Norfolk NOB on 14 June 1941

Departed Norfolk NOB on 29 June.
Aboard were VF-42 (F4F-3), VS-41, VMO-1 (SBC-4), and VMS-1 det. (SB2U-3)
(VT-5 ashore; VB-5, VS-5, and VF-5 beginning transitions to new aircraft)
Patrolled 5030 miles, 1190 flight hours.

Arrived Norfolk 13 July 1941

Departed Norfolk 30 July 1941
Aboard were VF-42, VS-41, VT-5
Patrolled 3998 miles, 842 flight hours

Arrived Bermuda 10 August 1941

Departed Bermuda 15 August 1941
Same air group
Patrolled 4064 miles 1188 flight hours

Arrived Bermuda 27 August 1941

Departed Bermuda 29 August 1941
Same air group
Patrolled south short of Trinidad in search of suspected German cruiser

Arrived Norfolk NOB 6 September 1941

- An aside . . . my parents were married in Norfolk on 13 September. Amongst those in attendance were Capt Buckmaster, Comdr Arnold, and the pilots of VF-42. 

Departed Norfolk 16 September 1941
Aboard were VB-5 (SBD-2, -3), VF-42, and VT-5
(VS-5 detached service at Army war games)
Transited to Casco Bay, Newfoundland

Arrived Casco Bay 22 September 1941 and operated locally.

Departed Casco Bay on 25 October 1941
Same air group
(VS-5 now operating SBD-3s out of Quonset Point NAS, Rhode Island)
Convoy duty, escorted eastbound convoy code named “Cargo” to the MOMP and exchanged for westbound Convoy CT-5. 

Arrived Casco Bay on 9 November 1941

Operated locally from 10 November to 29 November 1941

Departed Casco Bay on 30 November 1941
Transit to Norfolk

Arrived Norfolk NOB on 2 December 1941

Departed Norfolk NOB on 16 December 1941 for the Pacific
Aboard were VB-5 (18 SBD-3), VF-42 (18 F4F-3), VS-5 (19 SBD-3), and VT-5 (15 TBD-1)
Also aboard for transportation were a cargo of 1 SBD-1, 4 SBD-2, 4 SBD-3, 6 F4F-3A and 14 F4F-3.

Best I can do.

Rich


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## R Leonard (Jun 13, 2007)

> 1328: VT 124, Bu #23539 [a General Motors TBM-3 Avenger], pilot, LT(JG) C.R. Dean, 298954, and crewmen F.J. Blake, ARM3c, and D.E. Zima, AOM2c, made a normal landing and taxied forward. As the plane reached a point abreast the island a violent explosion occurred, believed to have been caused by the detonation of two (2) 500 lb. bombs adrift in the plane's bomb bay.




Hancock was the TF-38 flag at the time. If you look at the port side of the island you can see damage to the galleries overlooking the flight deck adjacent to flag plot. I’d have to look it up, but there were quite a few staff casualties, including deaths, from this accident. 

Jimmy Thach, the TF-38 operations officer, had just ducked below the splinter shielding to light a cigarette as the TBM was taxiing forward. He was still below the shield when the plane went up. He was unhurt, but at least one of those standing next to him was killed. 

My father, Thach’s assistant, had just stepped into the flag plot head which placed an armored communications trunk between him and the gallery; he had just left Thach’s side after showing him a dispatch. He told me that in all probability he would not have been in the gallery, anyway, as he did not make a practice of watching flight deck operations, but delivering the message could have been bad if he worked the sequence the other way.

Where the bombs went off was right above the staff offices and cabins located beneath the flight deck.

The damage to their working spaces and personnel losses necessitated the staff transferring off Hancock and they’d moved on within 24 hours.

Rich


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## Lucky13 (Jun 13, 2007)

Thank you very much Rich! Personally I'd say that William G. Roy's photos from USS Yorktown at the battle of Coral Sea and Midway are just famous the photo of the Marines raising the Stars and Stripes on Mount Suribachi...










Brazos (AO-4) refueling Yorktown (CV-5) mid-Pacific, July 1940.


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## R Leonard (Jun 13, 2007)

> I was told this was the first time two fleet carriers were together in Pearl Harbor since the attack!



Pearl Harbor? You've been had by a fleet myth.

I've a photo around here somewhere taken from USS Enterprise on 6 February 1942 that shows Yorktown entering the harbor. In the background with her funnel showing over Yorktown's flight deck is Saratoga. 



Rich


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 13, 2007)

R Leonard said:


> Pearl Harbor? You've been had by a fleet myth.
> 
> I've a photo around here somewhere taken from USS Enterprise on 6 February 1942 that shows Yorktown entering the harbor. In the background with her funnel showing over Yorktown's flight deck is Saratoga.
> 
> ...



Thanks for straightening me out Rich - 

BTW when both boats were there the place was a zoo. 5,000 drunken sailors and marines running around the beach area. Saturday night looked like the old movie "1941."


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## maxs75 (Jun 13, 2007)

R Leonard said:


> - An aside . . . my parents were married in Norfolk on 13 September. Amongst those in attendance were Capt Buckmaster, Comdr Arnold, and the pilots of VF-42.



Rich, Your family was really inside the history that is read on books.
I don't have the exact words in english to express myself, I hope you get the concept.

And ... Thanks for the answer.

Max


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## Doodard (Jun 13, 2007)

Carrier landing lights too! Might surprise you. But surely the toughest condiitions ever for carrier landings were in the Arctic on the run to Murmansk in December and January february of '44-45. Flying 500 miles north of the arctic circle in wildcats on a carrier 490 feet long and 68 feet wide! Junkers and U-boats and 70-100mile per hour winds!!!!!


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## Lucky13 (Jun 14, 2007)

A few more photos gents.....





Crash landing of F6F-3, Number 30 of Fighting Squadron Two (VF-2), into the carrier's port side 20mm gun gallery, 10 November 1943. Lieutenant Walter L. Chewning, Jr., USNR, the Catapult Officer, is climbing up the plane's side to assist the pilot from the burning aircraft. The pilot, Ensign Byron M. Johnson, escaped without significant injury. Enterprise was then en route to support the Gilberts Operation. Note the plane's ruptured belly fuel tank.






F6F Hellcat fighters taxiing forward on the flight deck, during training exercises, 2 July 1943. Another F6F is in flight overhead, with its landing gear and tail hook extended.





Grumman F6F-3 Hellcat fighters landing on USS Enterprise (CV-6) after strikes on the Japanese base at Truk, 17-18 February 1944. Flight deck crewmen are folding planes' wings and guiding them forward to the parking area. The original caption gives date as 16 February.





Guadalcanal Invasion, August 1942 ordnancemen of Scouting Squadron Six (VS-6) load a 500 pound demolition bomb on an SBD scout bomber on the flight deck of USS Enterprise (CV-6), during the first day of strikes on Guadalcanal and Tulagi, 7 August 1942.
Note aircraft's landing gear and bomb crutch; also bomb cart and hoist.


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## maxs75 (Jun 14, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> Guadalcanal Invasion, August 1942 ordnancemen of Scouting Squadron Six (VS-6) load a 500 pound demolition bomb on an SBD scout bomber on the flight deck of USS Enterprise (CV-6), during the first day of strikes on Guadalcanal and Tulagi, 7 August 1942.
> Note aircraft's landing gear and bomb crutch; also bomb cart and hoist.



The top of the photo says 7 august 1944 ????

Max


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## Mike64 (Jun 15, 2007)

maxs75 said:


> The top of the photo says 7 august 1944 ????
> 
> Max



Nice detail! 

Also, a good view of the mechanical fuze, arming wire and Fahnstock clip, too. I hope they are going to trim the excess forward of the clip a little.

With the Mk 80 series low drag bombs, we have come a long way since then -


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## R Leonard (Jun 15, 2007)

Mike -

Does the gent on the left have the arming wire locked behind his knee for a reason or is that just a vagary of the action?

Max -

Caption on the photo is wrong. That's 1942.

Rich


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## Mike64 (Jun 16, 2007)

R Leonard said:


> Mike -
> 
> Does the gent on the left have the arming wire locked behind his knee for a reason or is that just a vagary of the action?
> 
> ...


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## Lucky13 (Jun 17, 2007)

Ensign Arthur J. Brassfield, USN of Fighting Squadron 42 (VF-42) Oversees engine maintenance on one of VF-42's F4F-3A fighters, on the flight deck of USS Yorktown (CV-5) at Casco Bay, Maine, 13 November 1941. Note SBD-3 in background, carrying an anti-submarine depth bomb; light gray color scheme on both planes; .50 caliber machine gun, telescopic gunsight and variable-pitch propeller on the F4F; and Ensign Brassfield's aviation winter green uniform and leather jacket. Also note what appears to be a file in the mechanic's back pocket, providing an opportunity for later medical treatment.





USS Yorktown (CV-5) Parade on the flight deck, 10 April 1942, during the "Yorktown Jamboree". Following the ship's band, Marines with M-1 (Garand) rifles and fixed bayonets guard the "Big T-Bone Steak ... the only one in captivity" that was one feature of this celebration. At the extreme right is the tail of a F4F-3 Wildcat fighter (Bureau # 3999) that had been transferred to Fighting Squadron 42 (VF-42) from Fighting Squadron Two (VF-2) in March 1942. Note Bombing Squadron Five (VB-5) SBD-3 aircraft parked in the background and volleyball net in upper center.





Lieutenant Commander James H. Flatley, Jr. (left) with Lieutenant Stanley W. Vejtasa (center) and Lieutenant John A. Leppla pose for photographers, in front of a Grumman F4F-4 fighter (Bureau # 01996), 7 July 1942. All three pilots were then serving with Fighting Squadron Ten (VF-10). They were veterans of the Battle of the Coral Sea, Flatley with VF-42, Vejtasa with VS-5, and Leppla with VS-2.





Photographer 3rd Class William G. Roy, USN poses with a Fairchild F-1 20" aerial camera, in the rear cockpit of a Bombing Squadron Five (VB-5) SBD-3 Dauntless aircraft. Photographed on board USS Yorktown (CV-5) circa April 1942.





Northrop BT-1 bomber (Bureau # 0592), of Bombing Squadron Five (VB-5) being pushed by plane handlers on the flight deck of USS Yorktown (CV-5), circa 1939. Aircraft history cards list this BT-1 as wrecked and stricken on 24 August 1939.





Northrup BT-1 bomber (Bureau # 0614) of Bombing Squadron Five (VB-5), goes into the starboard catwalk during a landing accident on USS Yorktown (CV-5), circa 1940. Note man in asbestos suit and other members of the flight deck crew running to assist.





Douglas TBD-1 Torpedo Plane (Bureau # 0284) of Torpedo Squadron Five (VT-5). In the starboard catwalk of USS Yorktown (CV-5), 3 September 1940, following a landing accident. Pilot was Electrician's Mate First Class (Naval Aviation Pilot) C.M. O'Brien. The after end of the carrier's island is in the background. Ultimately assigned to Torpedo Squadron Eight (VT-8.), This aircraft was lost on 4 June 1942 during the Battle of Midway.





Douglas TBD-1 Torpedo Plane (Bureau # 0297) of Torpedo Squadron Five (VT-5) with a wrinkled fuselage, following a landing accident on USS Yorktown (CV-5), 3 September 1940. The after end of the carrier's island is in the background. This aircraft was ultimately assigned to Torpedo Squadron Eight (VT-8.), and was lost in the Battle of Midway on 4 June 1942.





Grumman F3F-3 Fighters from Fighting Squadron Five (VF-5), USS Yorktown (CV-5) flying in a three-plane formation over the Southern California coast, circa 1939-40.


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## R Leonard (Jun 17, 2007)

> At the extreme right is the tail of a F4F-3 Wildcat fighter (Bureau # 3999) that had been transferred to Fighting Squadron 42 (VF-42) from Fighting Squadron Two (VF-2) in March 1942.



You can also tell that that F4F-3 came from VF-2 because of the rudder stripes. Lexington planes, for some odd reason, and for the most part had but nine somewhat oversized stripes on their rudders, five red, four white. Yorktown used the regulation 13 stripes, seven red, six white.

Rich


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## Lucky13 (Jun 17, 2007)

I didn't know that Rich... What else can you tell?


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## Lucky13 (Jun 18, 2007)

I know that it's not exactly carrier operations, but it's still naval aviation, right?    and I've always liked the Kingfisher.





Carrier Raids on Truk, 17-18 February 1944 Vought OS2U-3 Kingfisher is recovered USS Baltimore (CA-68.) after she had rescued Lieutenant (Junior Grade) George M. Blair from Truk Lagoon, 18 February 1944. Plane's pilot is Lieutenant (Junior Grade) Denver F. Baxter. His radioman, ARMC Reuben F. Hickman, is on the wing, preparing to attach the plane so it can be hoisted on board. Blair's F6F Hellcat, of Fighting Squadron Nine from USS Essex (CV-9), had been shot down during the dawn fighter sweep over Truk.





Carrier Raids on Truk, 17-18 February 1944 Lieutenant (Junior Grade) George M. Blair (left) on board USS Baltimore (CA-68.) after he had been rescued from Truk Lagoon by one of the cruiser's floatplanes, 18 February 1944. His rescuers, Lieutenant (Junior Grade) Denver F. Baxter (center) and ARMC Reuben F. Hickman, pose with him soon after their OS2U "Kingfisher" was hoisted on board. Blair's F6F Hellcat, from USS Essex (CV-9), had been shot down during the dawn fighter sweep over Truk.





Carrier Raids on Western New Guinea, April 1944. A USS Boston (CA-69) OS2U Kingfisher floatplane returns to the cruiser after rescuing a crewman of a downed TBF bomber, during raids on Japanese targets in the Hollandia Area, 21 April 1944. ARM2c W.R. Kesey is on the wing. AOM3c B.A. Kanitcer is in the rear cockpit. The OS2U's pilot is not identified.





Iwo Jima Operation, 1945 USS Texas (BB-35) recovers a Vought OS2U Kingfisher floatplane in a light rain at 1700 Hrs. on 16 February 1945, the first day of the Iwo Jima pre-invasion bombardment. The OS2U's radioman is riding the wing after hooking the plane to the recovery crane. Note details of the crane, aircraft recovery mat and net, 40mm quad gun mounting and the plane's color scheme and markings.





Vought OS2U "Kingfisher" floatplane, of Observation Squadron One (VO-1) on a seaplane mat towed by USS Arizona (BB-39), while being recovered after a flight in the Hawaiian Operating area on the morning of 6 September 1941. The plane flown by Ensign Lawrence A. Williams. Rear-seat man was Radioman 3rd Class G.H. Lane, who is preparing to hook up the aircraft to the ship's crane for recovery. Note the plane's side number "1-O-3", with the ship's name below it.





Vought OS2U Kingfisher floatplane, of Observation Squadron One (VO-1) taxiis alongside USS Arizona (BB-39), after a flight in the Hawaiian Operating area, 6 September 1941. Pilot is Lieutenant-Commander Welton D. Rowley, Commanding Officer of VO-1. Rear-seat man, Radioman 2nd Class E.L. Higley, is preparing to go out on the plane's wing to hook up the aircraft to the battleship's crane for recovery. The plane is numbered "1-O-1".





Vought OS2U "Kingfisher" floatplane, from USS North Carolina (BB-55) off Truk with nine aviators on board, awaiting rescue by USS Tang (SS-306), 1 May 1944. The plane had landed inside Truk lagoon to recover downed airmen. Unable to take off with such a load, it then taxiied out to Tang, which was serving as lifeguard submarine during the 29 April-1 May carrier strikes on Truk.





Vought OS2U "Kingfisher" floatplane, from USS North Carolina (BB-55) afire after it was hit by gunfire from USS Tang (SS-306), off Truk, 1 May 1944. The plane had landed inside Truk lagoon to recover downed airmen. Unable to take off with a load of nine men, it then taxiied out to Tang, which was serving as lifeguard submarine during the 29 April-1 May carrier strikes on Truk. The plane was destroyed after its crew and passengers were removed.





Vought OS2U Kingfisher floatplane is lowered onto the after catapult of USS Arizona (BB-39), in the Hawaiian Operating area, 6 September 1941. Note details of the plane's float, the catapult and crew uniforms.





USS Quincy (CA-71) two Vought OS2U Kingfisher floatplanes warming up on the cruiser's fantail prior to catapult launching, probably at the time of the Invasion of Southern France, August 1944. Note barrels of Quincy's after eight-inch guns in the foreground, hangar hatch cover and twin aircraft cranes at the ship's stern.





USS Missouri (BB-63) rRecovering a Vought OS2U Kingfisher floatplane, during the ship's shakedown cruise, circa August 1944.





USS Missouri (BB-63) hoists aboard a Vought OS2U Kingfisher floatplane, during the ship's shakedown cruise, circa August 1944.





USS Mobile (CL-63) preparing to launch a Vought OS2U Kingfisher floatplane from her port catapult, during the October 1943 raid on Marcus Island. Note the 40mm twin gun mount in the foreground, with a man in the gun tub holding a red flag.





USS Quincy (CA-71) Vought OS2U Kingfisher floatplane is catapulted from the cruiser's stern, probably at the time of the Invasion of Southern France, August 1944.





USS Mobile (CL-63) view on the ship's fantail, looking across her open aircraft hangar hatch toward the starboard quarter, during the October 1943 raid on Marcus Island. Vought OS2U Kingfisher floatplanes are on her catapults. The plane on the starboard catapult has a small bomb under its wing.
USS Yorktown (CV-10) is in the center distance.





Naval Air Station, Norfolk, Virginia scene in the control tower, overlooking a seaplane ramp, circa 1944-45. One of those present is a WAVE. Planes on the ramp are Vought OS2U "Kingfisher" floatplanes.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 18, 2007)

Very cool Lucky!


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## syscom3 (Jun 18, 2007)

Interesting pics.


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## R Leonard (Jun 18, 2007)

I always liked this one, this is Art Hinkman from USS Santa Fe, the only OS2U rear gunner to shoot down a Zeke in the course of the war. Not in the plane pictured, though, the one in which the deed was done had its floats so perforated that when they landed, it sank. Shoot down of the Zeke was confirmed as it occurred in plain sight of the ship. 

Rich


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## Lucky13 (Jun 18, 2007)

WOW! Any idea of plane and bureau no?


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## Lucky13 (Jun 19, 2007)

Vought O3U-3 Observation Plane (Bureau # 9329) on the midships elevator of USS Yorktown (CV-5), 2 November 1937. This aircraft is painted in blue and silver "command colors" for the use of the ship's Commanding Officer. On 9 November 1937, it became the first plane to be launched from Yorktown's hangar deck catapult. Aircraft in the right background are Grumman J2F-1 utility planes (Bureau #s 0169 and 0170).





Grumman J2F-1 Utility Plane (Bureau # 0169) on the midships elevator of USS Yorktown (CV-5), 2 November 1937. This aircraft is plane # 4 of the ship's utility unit.


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## R Leonard (Jun 19, 2007)

From VCS-13 report:

START:

At 1420 K, 4 July 1944, OS2U-3 (Bu.#5363) was catapulted from the U.S.S. SANTA FE for a primary mission of spotting gunfire for the SANTA FE. The plane was piloted by Lt. (jg) R.W. Hendershott, USNR, and Hickman, A.E. ARM2c, USNR was the gunner. The SANTA FE was a part of a bombardment group composed of CruDiv 13 plus the U.S.S. DENVER and escorting destroyers. The mission of this group was the bombardment of the airstrip and installations on Iwo Jima.

We arrived on spotting station at approximately 1435 K, at an altitude of 3500 feet and 3 miles east of Iwo Jima. At this altitude, I was just above the cloud cover and had an excellent view of Iwo Jima. During this time, I was accompanied by a Kingfisher from the U.S.S. BILOXI.

At 1445 K, two F6F’s from our combat air patrol flew down close to us from above, apparently letting us know that they were covering us. The knowledge that these F6F’s were giving us supposedly close cover nearly proved fatal for my gunner and myself a few minutes later.

The radio operator on the ship notified me that firing would commence in eight minutes, and I carefully noted the time. It was 1450. Almost at the same instant, enemy anti-aircraft batteries commenced shooting at my plane and I moved away from the area to the eastward for a few minutes to get out of range. As I turned my plane away, Hickman informed me on ICS that three Jap fighters were taking off from the southern runway on Iwo Jima. I told Hickman to keep me informed as to their position. The SANTA FE opened fire on the southern end of the runway, with the main battery, at approximately 1500 K. The cloud cover was between me and the Island; consequently, I could give no observation. Hickman informed me that the Jap fighters were below us spiraling up, The SANTA FE fired its second main battery salvo and I was still not in position for observation. All this time, I was assuming that our CAP would take care of the Jap fighters. The third main battery salvo. was in the air when the three Jap fighters hit me. The BILOXI plane was nowhere in sight, probably maneuvering into a cloud as soon as he observed the Jap fighters taking off from Iwo Jima.

All the runs made by the Zero's were from directly astern or from below and astern. Their recoveries from each run consisted of passing below me, then zooming up ahead of me as they regained their altitude. Things happened so fast that I don't remember the exact sequence of the fighters' runs. Each fighter made two or three runs apiece. One of the fighters made a direct stern approach and, as the range closed, Hickman fired 100 rounds of 30 Cal. directly into the engine, firing between the horizontal stabilizer and the vertical stabilizer on the starboard side. Hickman's fire evidently killed the Jap pilot instantly, because, as the "Zeke" passed my plane his port wing hit my starboard wing and ripped about a foot and a half of the' wing tip completely off of my aircraft. The Jap fighter did not again appear in view above my cowling and was observed by Hickman to crash into the sea out of control. This was also observed by lookouts and gunnery control officers on the SANTA FE. On one run, one of the fighters was coming up from below and astern. His fire went around and between my legs, into the fire wall, through the oil tank, and out the cowling. The oil spurted over the entire windshield, cockpit and fuselage. The oil that came into the cockpit was blown over me by the floor vent draft and I was completely drenched from head to foot with oil. The heat of the oil and smoke led me to believe that we were on fire, and in desperation I shouted at Hickman, over the radio, to bail out. Luckily his head phones had blown off his head and he didn't hear my order. This was the one time that I had noted my altitude; we were at 1800 feet. I was kicking the rudder pedals and pumping the stick as fast as my arms and legs would work. The fighters made a couple more runs on me, but broke off the engagement, as I was close to the destroyer screen and about fifty feet off the water. As soon as I was inside the destroyer screen I was amazed to see that the plane was completely riddled by machine gun fire and that the only place we had not been hit was in the fore and after cockpits. All my oil was gone and the oil pressure read zero. My fuel pressure also read zero. The forward end of the port wing tip float was cut completely off and a gaping hole was the only thing that remained. The starboard wing tip was entirely gone, but I still had good aileron control throughout. The empennage was full of holes and the fabric surfaces on the wings and tail controls were nothing but a mass of "Irish pennants," fluttering in the wind.

I proceeded down the port side of the cruiser column, one thousand yards abeam. Directly opposite the third ship in column I made a slow turn to the right. Just as I straightened out into the wind, the motor froze, and I made a fairly normal full stall landing. The plane remained afloat about 20 seconds, until the port wing tip float filled with water. The plane turned over and Hickman and I were able to scramble up on the main float. There were still enough undamaged compartments in the main float to keep it about ten inches above the surface. We were only on the float for a few minutes, when the destroyer BURNS approached and took us aboard. The plane was later sunk when the BURNS rammed the wreckage

Conclusions

1. CAP should be placed about 1 or 2 thousand feet above spotting planes, with a high cover over them.

2. Neither Hickman nor myself was injured, except that I had some very small pieces of metal or shrapnel in my legs.

3. The OS2U-3 is a plane that can take almost anything that the Japs can dish out.

4. The radio worked excellently throughout the entire engagement and practically everything I said was copied by the radio operator on the ship.

5. Almost everyone topside of the SANTA FE and destroyer screen was an eyewitness to the engagement.

6. I would be extremely pleased to see more suitable aircraft placed at the disposal of the cruiser and battleship aviators - a plane that can take it and dish it out like a fighter.

7. At no time during the engagement did the Jap Zeros attempt any runs from abeam, ahead, or above. All the Zeros approached from below and astern except the one that Hickman shot down; he approached from directly astern, at the same altitude.

R.W. Hendershott.

ENDS

Santa Fe carried one OS2N-1 (Naval Airplane Factory version of the OS2U-3) and one OS2U-3 at the time of this action.

Also please note my crappy typing fingers, that was Arthur Edward *Hickman*, not, Hinkman.

USS Santa Fe 1942-1946 is a well done little tribute site which tells of this adventure and others; also some nice, on the scene, photos.

ARM2c AE Hickman, top, Lt(jg) RW Hendershott, bottom


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 19, 2007)

Great stuff!!!!


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## R Leonard (Jun 19, 2007)

Yeah, thanks, but you should have watched me try to screw my eyeballs back in last night at about midnight after going through about 150 photos of VF-17A/VF-171 from 1948 to 1950 aboard FD Roosevelt and Coral Sea. Lots of good shots, but some were just repeats of the same type of shots, the only difference be side numbers, or 6-8 shots of the same flight with the same clouds in the background, but small changes in formation position. Makes it kind of hard to spot duplicates, especially if nobody bothered to put an "Official Photograph" stamp on the back with a photo number . . . argggghhh!

Rich


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 19, 2007)

Rich, do you have any photos of elisted pilots - the old "AP" Rating?


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## Lucky13 (Jun 19, 2007)

Great read Rich!

"AP" Rating???


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 19, 2007)

Avaition Pilot - an enlisted rating.


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## Lucky13 (Jun 19, 2007)

Ok, thanks FLYBOYJ!


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## Mike64 (Jun 19, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Rich, do you have any photos of elisted pilots - the old "AP" Rating?



A good start is at this web page -

Enlisted Naval Aviation Pilots (NAP) History


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 19, 2007)

Thanks Mike!


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## Wildcat (Jun 19, 2007)

Great post Rich! Love the old Kingfisher.:cool;


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## SlickDriver (Jun 20, 2007)

My question is that several CVs, CVLs, and CVEs were used at various times as aircraft ferries.

Does anybody know how many aircraft they could carry? Norman Friedman's Aircraft Carrier book has a chart with the capacity of planned conversions of liners, but not of the carriers themselves.

Thanks in advance for any information.


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## renrich (Jun 20, 2007)

Mighty fine stuff


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## R Leonard (Jun 20, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Rich, do you have any photos of elisted pilots - the old "AP" Rating?



Probably nothing that can't be found on the internet or in right sort of book. The trick is knowing their names. Sometime you run across Lieutenant so and so or even Commander so and so, and if you did not know the gent started as an NAP you might pass him over. Great example would be Ken Walsh. . . got his wings as a Corporal, made Tech Sergeant, and then Marine Gunner, before getting a commission. Retired as a Colonel, I believe, with THE Medal. Another you might miss unless you just happened to know he was an old NAP would be "Pappy" Gunn of the "let's see how many guns we can put on one of these" B-25 fame.

Walsh, then Gunn


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 20, 2007)

Hey, I have Walsh's autograph!


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## R Leonard (Jun 20, 2007)

One of my Dad's favorite stories was that when VF-11 left Guadalcanal in late July 1943, they flew their trusty F4F-4s down to Espiritu Santos where they turned them in and awaited transport stateside. Staging through, headed north, was VF-33 with some brand new F6F*3s. The VF-33 types were nice enough to let some of the senior VF-11 types try out their mounts (Dad was Exec by then). He made three flights in the Hellcats, one of which was in mock combat with an F4U piloted by none other than Ken Walsh. Dad said he was a pretty good stick, they agreed it was about even. I met Walsh once many years later, in company with himself, and watched bemused as they yucked it up. As was my experience with the vast majority of these WWII aviator types, Walsh was just another super nice guy who, if you didn't know the story, you'd probably never guess.

Rich


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 20, 2007)

Very cool Rich - I met him when I was about 19. I read about him in the books "Airwar." I think he was out at the Chino airshow. Super nice guy, spoke with me for about a half hour, gave me a lot of encouragement in getting into aviation.


Do you know if he's still alive? That meeting was almost 30 years ago.


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## AV8 (Jun 20, 2007)

I think the Midway class COULD oeprate F-14s. But, a Midway class could not both launch and recover at the same time ... and obviously could not carry many F-14s.

The takeoff and landing areas would overlap, but it could be done. The question is, why would anyone DO it?

Larger carriers were MUCH more practical, could carry more fuel and aircraft, And for how long could a Midway-class carrier supply fuel to F-14s?

If I am not mistaken, all you need is 266 feet to launch and a similar but slightly longer area to land. The difference in landing area would be to maneuver the landed aircraft out of the way before the next victim traps ... and, of course, a bolter would be catastrophic without and angled flight deck.

But, it COULD be done, even if VERY inconveniently.


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## R Leonard (Jun 20, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Do you know if he's still alive? That meeting was almost 30 years ago.



I think he moved on about 10 years ago.

R


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## R Leonard (Jun 21, 2007)

As far as I know, neither F-14 squadrons nor S-3 dets were assigned to Midway class carriers. For fighters they went straight from F-4s to F-18s. While there was, no doubt, at least one landing or launch of an F-14 from a Midway class, it is equally certain that it was not done on a regular basis, and not by an assigned aircraft.

No point in deliberately putting airplanes on your carrier when their operation would be so pointedly cumbersome and dangerous. So, they didn't. 

Rich


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## Lucky13 (Jun 21, 2007)

S-3 Vikings making a rare visit on USS Coral Sea during 1985/86.










And an even rarer visit by a Tomcat on the Ageless Warrior...

They were way too large to be effectively operated on the Midway class carriers.... 

But, what do you say about this visitor then....also on Coral Sea.


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## R Leonard (Jun 21, 2007)

One of just seven (7!!!) F-11B’s built. This one is b/n 151974 during the July 1968 carrier trials. The trials confirmed what the Navy already knew, as a carrier plane the thing was an overweight, underpowered piece of junk. As Tom Connelly said, "There isn't enough power in all Christendom to make that airplane what we want!" There were folks in DODR&E who were also aware of the 111Bs dismal carrier capabilities and kept the DCNO-Air up to speed on the latest shenanigans. Bottom line was that one F-111B was on the Coral Sea for trials. It was proven, just as all suspected, again, overweight and underpowered, had poor approach visibility and unable to maintain level flight with only one engine. The irony of the Coral Sea trial was that it took place just as the stop work order was being issued. The Navy recommended that the project be ended in October 1967. Congress cut off further funding in May of 1968, the stop work order was issued in July, and the contract terminated in December. The last F-111B was delivered in February 1969. A lot of politics involved in this . . . Texas company, a President from Texas, and powerful Armed Forces Committee senator from Texas kept up with a constant “are you sure . . .?” “what if they . . .?” “wouldn’t this solve . . .?” and so on. Thank goodness the bean counters (and make no mistake, I am a bean counter) didn’t win that one.

Photos aside, if you check squadrons and their complements deployed on the Midway class carriers, you’ll quickly see that there were never any F-14 squadrons or S-3 squadron detachments assigned to these ships. There are photos of B-25s landing and taking off from carriers, too, but that doesn’t mean they were assigned as part of an air group. Same could be said for the P-51.

Rich


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## Mike64 (Jun 21, 2007)

AV8 said:


> I think the Midway class COULD oeprate F-14s. But, a Midway class could not both launch and recover at the same time ... and obviously could not carry many F-14s.
> 
> The takeoff and landing areas would overlap, but it could be done. The question is, why would anyone DO it?
> 
> ...



Midway Class, or any angle deck CVA / CV / CVAN / CVN could launch and recover at the same time, but not very easily! 

On Midway, even after her 2nd "weird" conversion, with only 2 C-13 bow cats, you could do one of two things:

1: Make a "hole" in the landing pattern - have a plane extend downwind before turning in, making an extra long interval between him and the one on final. This gives time to pull an airplane across the foul line, onto a bow (or waist on biger ones), shoot it, then start recovering again. This is not unusual, in order to launch extra CAP or a tanker in the middle of a recovery.

2. Even on the ESSEX conversions, you could stash one or two aircaft up against the side or front of the Island, and get him to Cat 1 (starboard bow) and shoot them.

Neither method is pretty, and it takes REAL close coordination - even today on a NIMITZ Class, shooting a tanker off the waist in the middle of a recovery, at night - is a real thrill for everyone concerned.

MIDWAY could physically shoot and trap F-14's, but they would take up too much room (F-14s were called "Turkeys" -), and intermediate and organizational maintenance support was going to be just too hard, hence the direct F-4 to F/A-18 transition.

C-13 cats have a total deckplate length of 310 feet, a power stroke of 302 feet. Mk-3 arresting gear has a deck runout of 310 feet. You need 110 feet before the #1 wire (3.0 deg glideslope and 14.7 ft "Hook to Ramp" distance), 40 ft between wires, bolter and turnout space for an airplane, not just runout and bolter space.

The original CV-41 Class angle deck conversions had C-11 cats, shorter, but the limit on launch speeds were normally structural on the airplane, not cat capacity. Same thing with arrestments.

I am not sure about the F/A-18 C/D, but at least until recently the critical factor for minimum wind acroos the deck for arrestments with today's Mk7-3 arresting gear was the E-2C; its fuselage, hook point and sink rate limits dictated about 26 knots of wind for recovery.

My point in all this is, Carriers can do a lot of things, but long term operability and support of any aircraft type is a feature most people don't appreciate.

My best example of big airplanes and small decks is the good old KA-3D; that big bitch operated routinely in 4-plane dets on ESSEX Carriers at full weights, with cat strokes of 204 feet, and arresting gear runouts of about 214 feet. Now, there's a REAL eye opener, and a TOUGH tailhook!


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## Mike64 (Jun 21, 2007)

SlickDriver said:


> My question is that several CVs, CVLs, and CVEs were used at various times as aircraft ferries.
> 
> Does anybody know how many aircraft they could carry? Norman Friedman's Aircraft Carrier book has a chart with the capacity of planned conversions of liners, but not of the carriers themselves.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any information.



Slick - the answer is:

However many would fit! 

It depended on type of aircraft, or the mix - obviously. However, these small ships had to make sure they were ballasted properly, or they would be top heavy, and be goosey in roll recovery. Of course, that's true of any ship.

Aircraft were typically hoisted on and off by crane, off/on from barges or pierside.

Hope this is of some help -


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## pbfoot (Jun 21, 2007)

Recently I was called "crab fat" by some carrier guys in fun (I hope) I know it is derogatory but does anyone know the meaning.


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## Mike64 (Jun 21, 2007)

AV8 said:


> I think the Midway class COULD oeprate F-14s. But, a Midway class could not both launch and recover at the same time ... and obviously could not carry many F-14s.
> 
> The takeoff and landing areas would overlap, but it could be done. The question is, why would anyone DO it?
> 
> ...




AV8 - I misspoke -

You need about 280 feet from the ramp to the #1 CDP (cross deck pendant), not 110. I was thinking of the sheave to sheave distance of the arresting gear width.

Mike


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## SlickDriver (Jun 21, 2007)

Mike64,

I'm afraid that didn't answer the question at all. 

During the war there were basically two sizes of aircraft to be moved fighters (P-39, 40, 47, 51) sized and medium bomber/large fighter (P-38, B-25, 26, A-20, 26) sized aircraft. Large bombers were not transported that way.

And there was two methods to move them on aircraft transports. Storage and Ready to use or fly off.

The 1st method was as you described. All they could fit and not capsize, many times the aircraft were even partially disassembled as well to take up even less deck space. The 2nd method was used to fly off the aircraft. That was done during the landings in the Doolittle Raid, North Africa and many Pacific Islands. These aircraft were not disassembled and the bow of the carrier had sufficient space to fly off the aircraft, even though they were not capable of landing. Their own aircraft usually were the ones that they could carry in their hangers, since Army birds wouldn't fold to fit on the elevators.

I was hoping for a ball park figure of the carrier capacities in the 2 methods. I know that there were 16 B-25s carried on the Hornet.


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## blu3y4 (Jun 22, 2007)

gee it would be fun to be in the middle with a few kamikazees flying at ya.

good times...........................


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## Mike64 (Jun 22, 2007)

SlickDriver said:


> Mike64,
> 
> I'm afraid that didn't answer the question at all.
> 
> ...



OK, Slick - I see what you mean now. I thought you meant Carriers that had officially been converted and redesignated as aircraft transports, not for flight operations.


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## Lucky13 (Jun 22, 2007)

Rich,

Could you please tell me what versions of the Grumman Duck that the Yorktown had beside the J2F-1?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 22, 2007)

blu3y4 said:


> gee it would be fun to be in the middle with a few kamikazees flying at ya.
> 
> good times...........................



 

Kids....


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## Gnomey (Jun 22, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Kids....



Just what I thought when I saw that..


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## Lucky13 (Jun 22, 2007)

I wouldn't say that it would be FUN to cought in the middle of a Kamikaze attack, I don't think that those that were there found something amusing about it either, on the contrary.... Good times? Certainly not.


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## renrich (Jun 22, 2007)

Great pictures! Anyone remember the story of the original Essex and the Phoebe and Cherub? Speaking of the F111B, I once knew a retired Navy Captain Jim Swope. He was flying Wildcats when Pearl Harbor happened, had 9.5 or 10 kills in the Pacific and his last job in the Navy was as a project officer on McNamara's Folly, the F111B. Anyone else know him?


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## blu3y4 (Jun 23, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> I wouldn't say that it would be FUN to cought in the middle of a Kamikaze attack, I don't think that those that were there found something amusing about it either, on the contrary.... Good times? Certainly not.





hmm, i figured that, my origional comment may have had some sarcasm in it.


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## R Leonard (Jun 26, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> Could you please tell me what versions of the Grumman Duck that the Yorktown had beside the J2F-1?



A re-check of my records show Yorktown, on 31 Dec 1941, with two J2F-5 and one SOC-1. Also aboard, in VS-5, were two SNJ-3. How long these remained aboard after movement to the Pacific, I don’t know.

Rich


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## Lucky13 (Jun 26, 2007)

Thank you Rich... What do you know of the earlier models of the Grumman Duck on the Yorktown like F-1, F-2, etc.?


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## R Leonard (Jun 26, 2007)

renrich said:


> Great pictures! Anyone remember the story of the original Essex and the Phoebe and Cherub? Speaking of the F111B, I once knew a retired Navy Captain Jim Swope. He was flying Wildcats when Pearl Harbor happened, had 9.5 or 10 kills in the Pacific and his last job in the Navy was as a project officer on McNamara's Folly, the F111B. Anyone else know him?



I knew Jim Swope. He was a 1st and 2nd tour VF-11 Sun Downer (note my avatar). In the first tour, out of Cactus One on Guadalcanal he flew in the 1st Division on LCDR Clarence White’s (the squadron CO) wing. The other two members of the division were George Ricker and Charlie Stimpson. Side numbers on their F4F-4’s were white F1, F2, F3, and F4, respectively. My father was the squadron flight officer in that 1st tour and led the 6th division which consisted of himself, Al Jones, Vern Graham, and Bob Gilbert (#’s F21, F22, F23, and F24). Anyway, Swope scored 4.66 in the first tour and 5.0 in the second (in F6Fs off USS Hornet). Swope was seen around our house on occasion when he and Dad were still on active duty. 

Regards,

Rich


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## R Leonard (Jun 26, 2007)

Lucky13 said:


> Thank you Rich... What do you know of the earlier models of the Grumman Duck on the Yorktown like F-1, F-2, etc.?



Utility aircraft aboard USS Yorktown:
June 1937:
Two J2F-1 and three O3U-3

June 1938:
Two J2F-1 and three O3U-3

June 1939:
Two J2F-2 and three O3U-3
plus one SBC-3 for the CAG and two SBC-3 and two SU-3 as squadron hacks for VF-5

June 1940:
Two O3U-3, two J2F-4, two SOC-2, and one SBC-3
plus one SB2U-3 for the CAG and sq	uadron hacks: VB-5, one SBC-3 and VF-5, one SBC-3


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## Lucky13 (Jun 27, 2007)

Thanks Rich, appreciated as always....


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## trackend (Jun 27, 2007)

Interesting images Rich poor old Columbia took a whacking I see according to Wiki that she survived more than one hit and despite heavy casualties even carried on her bombardment duties. All credit to her crew


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## renrich (Jun 30, 2007)

Thank you Rich, I tried to find Swope in Lundstrom, "Guadalcanal Campaign" but he must have been slightly after the period that Lundstom covered in that book. Wish Lundstrom would write another covering the balance of the Guadalcanal campaign. Perhaps you will fill the gap? I knew Swope briefly in the mid eighties in connection to trying to get a microscopic gold recovery operation going in western CO and eastern Utah in the Mancos shale. He seemed very nice and because I was reluctant to pry I did not ask as many questions as I should have about his experiences. I remember he and I went out to the Grand Junction airport one day to see an abandoned stripped F10F and he told me a little of what he knew about that AC. He was not fond of McNamara and his whiz kids.


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## Cub Driver (Jun 30, 2007)

Thanks for the photos. The one of _Franklin_ listing to starboard made me wonder: are all the sailors lined up to port stationed there to (hopefully) prevent its rolling over?

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford


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## Mike64 (Jul 1, 2007)

Cub Driver said:


> Thanks for the photos. The one of _Franklin_ listing to starboard made me wonder: are all the sailors lined up to port stationed there to (hopefully) prevent its rolling over?
> 
> Blue skies! -- Dan Ford



"Cubby" - good question.

Every Navy ship has an "Abandon Ship" procedure, and everyone is aware of their assigned muster point. It is practiced, usually along with "General Quarters" drills. From a basic mustering point, specifics of exactly how and where an actual Abandon Ship order would be exercised would depend on the situation - the CO would make the ultimate decision based on advice and information from his leadership chain in engineering, operations, navigation, etc.

The counterweight of the personnel on the port side of the Flight Deck would not amount to a hill of beans. They have likely been ordered to break from their specific GQ stations, and sent there for standby assignments - especially to augment firefighting teams, as needed. 

The ship has at least some way on - normally, unessential personnel are cleared out from the listing side, in case the deck "digs in". My guess is that there are engineering guys and deck Boatswains to handle lines and coordinate with the (assumed) DD or DE alongside. Apparently they are passing firefighting equipment / other important stuff via "high line" - a contradictory term in this picture - they are at least temporarily sagging into the water.

The ship is VERY unstable in roll response in the pictured condition, and several factors could easily cause her to roll even more to starboard, perhaps even capsize. They would only keep essential personnel on the port side in such conditions.


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## syscom3 (Jul 1, 2007)

I think the reason the USS Franklin was listing was the huge number of gallons of water used in the firefighting efforts, and had yet to drain out.


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## machine shop tom (Jul 1, 2007)

blu3y4 said:


> gee it would be fun to be in the middle with a few kamikazees flying at ya.
> 
> good times...........................



My dad didn't think it was a whole lot of fun....

tom


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## machine shop tom (Jul 1, 2007)

SlickDriver said:


> My question is that several CVs, CVLs, and CVEs were used at various times as aircraft ferries.
> 
> Does anybody know how many aircraft they could carry? Norman Friedman's Aircraft Carrier book has a chart with the capacity of planned conversions of liners, but not of the carriers themselves.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any information.



Lots of P47s and A20s on the Fanny Bee (CVE 70) in this pic:

http://www.bosamar.com/images/cve/cve70.jpeg

tom


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## R Leonard (Jul 1, 2007)

renrich said:


> Thank you Rich, I tried to find Swope in Lundstrom, "Guadalcanal Campaign" but he must have been slightly after the period that Lundstom covered in that book. Wish Lundstrom would write another covering the balance of the Guadalcanal campaign. Perhaps you will fill the gap? I knew Swope briefly in the mid eighties in connection to trying to get a microscopic gold recovery operation going in western CO and eastern Utah in the Mancos shale. He seemed very nice and because I was reluctant to pry I did not ask as many questions as I should have about his experiences. I remember he and I went out to the Grand Junction airport one day to see an abandoned stripped F10F and he told me a little of what he knew about that AC. He was not fond of McNamara and his whiz kids.



Swope wouldn't be in First Team/Guadalcanal as, I believe, John ends it at the traditional end of the campaign in February 43. VF-11 did not get there until mid-April 43 and did most of their mischief to the north, although one of their biggest furballs, in mid June, was between Savo and Knucklehead. 

Oddly enough, I've been making one of my periodic forays through the files and found a letter from a third party to my father which mentions, in the course of an update on the whereabouts of various Sun Downers, that Swope was gold mining in Colorado. Letter was dated November 1982. Sound about right?

Rich


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## Cub Driver (Jul 2, 2007)

A friend of mine was in the navy in the 1950s, assigned to an aircraft carrier. Midway through his tour, he realized that it was dangerous up there. From then until his (honorable) discharge, he refused to go on the flight deck. Apparently this was not so unusual that the officers were ready to discipline him for it.

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford


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## renrich (Jul 3, 2007)

When I knew Swope would have been in about 85-86 and I remember that he had been trying to get this venture going for some time. I don't think he ever got it off the ground. The homebuilding business was beginning to go tits up during that time period(which was what I had been doing for many years) and it is amazing what a discussion about mining for gold will do to one's imagination. There is no question that a quantity of microscopic gold exists in the Mancos Shale but the question is the process to extract it and whether it is economic. This would have been a strip mining proposition.


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## renrich (Jul 3, 2007)

Would VF11 still be operating Wildcats in April 43 or would they have switched to Corsairs(assuming they were operating from land bases)? I did ask Swope whether the carrier landing was more difficult in a Wildcat than in a modern jet of the 80s. He said it was much more difficult in the 40s.


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## R Leonard (Jul 3, 2007)

VF-11 was one of the last VF's to take the F4F into action. The other was VF-21. Both operated out of Cactus I. The word was that they had plenty of airplanes because no one else was using them. VF-11 had 45 F4Fs at one point and, towards the end of its tour, VF-21 had something like 54. Not sure how many pilots VF-21 had, but VF-11 had as many as 40. 

VF-11 had so many airplanes that its pilots generally flew their assigned airplanes rather than simply what was available, a rarity in naval aviation. For example, between 26 April and 12 July 43 my father flew 46 of 49 missions in b/n 11895, the other three were in b/n 12080. Of the three in 12080, one was on 10 May and two were on 19 June. 140.5 hours total combat flying, 132 of them in the same plane. 

Again, I can't tell what was going on in VF-21, but in VF-11 they were well aware that the Marines were much better off in their F4U-1s. And, from all sources, they did not want to share. The VF-11 types were exposed to the F6F when they staged back through Espiritu Santo on their way home and ran into VF-33 on its way out. At least some of them got some time in with the Hellcats. The first F6F in my father's log appears during this time. The first F4U does not show up until 3 November 1943 when he takes up b/n 17551 while assigned as Fighter Training Officer at ComFAirWest out of North Island.

VF-11 rotated back state-side in mid-July 43, VF-21 in late August. They were the last F4F VF squadrons to face enemy aircraft.

Other F4Fs went out in VC squadrons aboard CVEs in the Tarawa operation, but that was their last combat fling and they had no air-to-air action. By the end October 43, even on the CVEs, F4Fs had been replaced as an active service aircraft by FM-1s which, in turn would be gradually replaced by the FM-2.

Regards.

Rich


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## Lucky13 (Jul 4, 2007)

Thanks a bunch Rich....


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## Udet (Jul 6, 2007)

Sea Control Ships = Lots of small Aircraft Carriers


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 7, 2007)

That whole website is just crap in my opinion.


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## spadguy (Jul 12, 2007)

In Japan all the taxi drivers needed to hear was "43 boat". It worked


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## pbfoot (Jul 26, 2007)

Found these pics and was curious if there are other pics of a wet launch which is new word to me it was taken on the HMCS Bonaventure time and date unknown sorry about quality . The aircraft is a Grumman Tracker and note the crew scrambling


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