# Sturmgeschütze



## Erich (Jan 19, 2006)

this might go under the self-propelled gun thread but maybe not.

What do you guys interested in armor battles think of the machine and it's operations during the war ? especially Ost front activities. It seemed to fill the ranks of the Brigaden quite admirably filling when there was an obvious shortage of German armor ~ Panthers and Pz IV's

what say yee ?

E ~


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## Erich (Jan 20, 2006)

geez answering my own thread.........

ok here is an interesting Brigade wappen : 667th Stug Brig. many Ritterkreuz winners


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## lesofprimus (Jan 20, 2006)

Im not familiar with this subject erich, so maybe some pics and background info???


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## Erich (Jan 20, 2006)

a sampling. late Stugs on the train line in movement on the Ost front. from the Baron Aufsess collection


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## Erich (Jan 20, 2006)

during the summer of 44 many of the Heer Armor regiments and later the W-SS regiments did not have enough Pz. IV's allocated so Stug. G's came in providing the necessary firepower for both advnace and defence purposes.

one soldier doing his duty killed in August of 44 on the Ost front


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## mosquitoman (Jan 20, 2006)

IMO good for defense but not for assault, domn't know if that's in any way true though


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## Udet (Jan 20, 2006)

Erich:

Also I recall a man who expertise is German AFVs saying soviet tankers, already hastily trained and many times manning T-34s without gunsights, feared the sturmgeschutz.

The machine became a very efficient T-34 killer; also its low profile made it a difficult target.


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## Erich (Jan 20, 2006)

sounds like time for an education..........

there are probably more Heer Ritterkreuz's given out to the Stug Abt/Brigaden then any other WW 2 German armored force in the war.

over 10,000 kills recorded in these seperate units and in the Heer stug abt. and W-SS abt plus the formation of other Abt. of armored regiments when the usual Pz. IV abt. was not there. Effective as a defence weapon without doubt...........an incredible low to the ground tank killer


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## Soren (Jan 21, 2006)

The StuG, a great little tank destroyer with a very powerful punch. (Especially in 42-43)

The StuG basically saved the Germans from being overrun by the masses of T-34's in early 42, litterally slaughtering the Russian juggernauts. The StuG proved quite effective on the offensive as-well. 

I remember reading of an incident in sept. 42 where a StuG III commander "Kurt Pfreundtner", knocked out 9 T-34's in 20 min !  

The Sturmgeschutz units also held an enormous record of tank kills, some 20,000 enemy tanks by spring of 44. This should be proof enough of its effectiveness.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 22, 2006)

Erich said:


> during the summer of 44 many of the Heer Armor regiments and later the W-SS regiments did not have enough Pz. IV's allocated so Stug. G's came in providing the necessary firepower for both advnace and defence purposes.
> 
> one soldier doing his duty killed in August of 44 on the Ost front



Interesting I like the notice as well.


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## Erich (Jan 22, 2006)

some as I said were quite successful ~ Herr Bose was one of them


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## Erich (Jan 25, 2006)

friend of a friend. Walter Kühn who received his RK in 3./Panzerjäger 1 with his Pak 40 7.5cm and also with the Panzerfaust: note his right arm. He later scored kills while commanding a Stug III G in Ost Preussia


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## evangilder (Jan 25, 2006)

He looks very young in that photo (Walter)


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## Erich (Jan 25, 2006)

unpublished pic of Walter and his Stug III on the Ost front after his receiving of the Ritterkreuz


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## Erich (Jan 25, 2006)

another unknown giving his life for duty on the Ost Front


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## schwarzpanzer (Jan 25, 2006)

I love it!  

Nice cheap and effective, with good protection/gun and formed the basis of many other conversions (StuH, MunitionPanzer etc).

Are we including the StugIV here? (StuGIII production was annihilated at one point - '44 IIRC)

Also one of the only early designs capable of taking on a Mathilda MkII.


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## Erich (Jan 25, 2006)

Geboren 1/1/20 in Nordhausen

27/1//40-20/7/40 Zugfuhrer IV Abt. Art Rgt 209 in France

10/8/40-29/9/41 Zugfuhrer Stug Abt 185 in Ost

30/9/41-14/1/42 Batterieoffizier Stg A.u.E. Abt. 200

15/1/42-13/1/43 Zugfuhrer dann Chef Stug Abt 185 in Ost

14/1/43-1/6/43 Chef Stug A.u.E. Abt 200

2.6.43-1/4/44 Batterie Chef Stug Brigade 237 in Ost

2/4/44-30/11/44 Stug Schule Burg bei Magdeburg

1/12/44 to war's ende Ordonsoffizier on Stab of Guerdian, Stab 29 Panzer Gern. Div in Italien

Doktor of Archaeolgy to this day ....

23/6/40 EK2
2/7/42 EK 1
6/5/42 DK in G
27/8/42 4 TDb's - 4 Soviet panzer kills
27/7/42 East front medal
25/9/42 Ritterkreuz while batterie Kommandeur of 1./239 stug Brigade
3/10/43 Eichenlaub zu Ritterkreuz

8/12/42 wound badge in Gold

Bodo Spranz: have a wonderful signed foto from Bodo


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 28, 2006)

Where is he an archeologist at? Anywere near Ansbach?


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## Erich (Jan 28, 2006)

Adler look his name up on the net, am not sure where he is located. I received info and signed pics from him through a good friend 

E ~


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## CharlesBronson (Jan 28, 2006)

One of the greatest Sturmgeschutz aces was Wachtmeister *Hugo Primozic *of StuG battalion 667, who was noted for his quick reactions, clever tactical use of ground and the icy nerve which in tense situations enabled him to hold his fire until his opponent had closed to point-blank range. In a five-month period of fighting he was awarded the two grades of the Iron Cross, the Knight's Cross and the Oak leaves. Primozic became the first NCO in the history of the German Army to be awarded the Knight's Cross. 






Born in 1914, Primozic joined the Reichswehr and fought in the French campaign as a field artillery gunner. In 1942 he joined the 667th Sturmgeschutz battalion which was sent to the Eastern Front. In September 1942, his three-gun troop, fighting in isolation, routed a determined Russian breakthrough attempt at Rzhev, destroying a total of 24 enemy tanks. Allowing the Russian tanks to advance, the StuG crews aimed at the most dangerous opponents first, killing them with one round at a short distance. By January 1943 Primozic had 60 personal kills to his credit and after an equally gallant action on the 28th he was awarded the Oakleaves, being simultaneously commissioned with the rank of Lieutenant. 


" Wachtmeister Primozic destroyed tanks day after day during an enemy offensive. One the fourth day, he had to cover the flank of his division, but during that day he fired his last shell... He had to retreat to escape from encirclement by breaking through... There was another StuG, immobilized, and while the Russians were closing in, Primozic came out of his vehicle to connect both vehicles, and drove both back to their own lines..." 

From a special report in the German propaganda magazine Signal 
As described above, Primozic was able to connect both vehicles of his platoon with a steel wire rope, and had to fight off the surrounding Russian infantry with a machine gun. For this action he was awarded the Iron Cross First Class. 













In September 1942 a large Russian army (including the Stalin Tank Brigade) tried to attack the town and area of Rzhev. As Primozic told: " On september the 15th we had only two StuGs ready, when the Russians wanted to break through. There was heavy artillery fire, and we had to hide in trenches untill the storm was over. When the artillery barrage ended, the first enemy tanks already passed our positions, while we still had to climb aboard our guns." Moving from position to position, the StuG platoon was fighting both tanks and infantry. Primozic destroyed 24 tanks on that particular day, first those who had broken through, often with one shot. For this action Primozic was awarded the Knight's Cross and promoted to senior sergeant.

www.achtungpanzer.com/stug.htm


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## Erich (Jan 28, 2006)

I've got a ton more but have to take the mrs to the clinic - ortho, so will be on later

E thanks for posting/adding gents


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 28, 2006)

Take good care of her Erich!


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## Erich (Jan 28, 2006)

she's soe but ok her left ear is going big time and we had at leat 3 surgeries for her but she has bone deterioration within. She has fought buzzing for years in her head and going to the chiro is actually giving her releif slowly besdies putting her back. back-in. as a schild she go banged up pretty good in an auto accident, her left leg was actually out the door and the door slmmed closed onto that leg so yes permanent internal and exteranl injuries.

more on the stug's on the morrow .... or late tonight


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## evangilder (Jan 28, 2006)

Yies, Erich. I hope she is better now.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 29, 2006)

Same here.


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## Erich (Jan 29, 2006)

thanks guys she feels great this morn ..........


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## Erich (Feb 1, 2006)

another pays with his life for the Fatherland


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## Erich (Feb 2, 2006)

late war shot ........


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## Erich (Feb 2, 2006)

do we need a little motivation here to get some response from you chaps ?

gents serving in one of the Luftw.- feld divisions abt.


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## evangilder (Feb 2, 2006)

Cool pics, E!


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## Soren (Feb 2, 2006)

Yeah, great shots Erich.


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## Erich (Feb 2, 2006)

ok a successful feld division Stug crew ....


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## lesofprimus (Feb 2, 2006)

Now THAT looks cold, better to stay inside...


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## Erich (Feb 3, 2006)

yo chilly it was on the Ost front 44-45.

a familiar image to some. A 3rd W-SS Stug on the prowl at Kursk


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## Erich (Feb 3, 2006)

another Heer Stug crewman


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## Erich (Feb 3, 2006)

one more Heer Stug gent


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## Erich (Feb 3, 2006)

and another Stug - man


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 4, 2006)

Sorry for no response. I have been busy with work this week.


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## plan_D (Feb 4, 2006)

I am interested, but I have read little in the way of StuG actions during the war. I know all about the machines but their involvement in combat I know little. They are forgotten by many, but they served admirably against the Soviet and Allied armoured forces - destroying many tanks in their path.


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## Erich (Feb 4, 2006)

I'll be back with another personal pic and hopeful soon of some historie for all of you. Granted an almost fogotten part of the (especially) Ost front ground engagements as we always here how great TG 1 and TG 2's were, Panthers and lesser Pz IV H and J's but nothing of the Stugs or hetzers combat tacts or ops ........... it was proiven without the Stug Abt. and BAtteries and small comapnies in the Feld-divisions that the front lines would of been penetrated too easily by Soviet forces.


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## plan_D (Feb 4, 2006)

The little StuGs were always there and always hard to find, I know that. But you say the Pz.IVs get mention - not really. I've found the greater mentions go to the big guns of the Wehrmacht like the King, Tiger and Panther ... it's a shame, really ... because the Pz.IVG - J were still big hitters in the late years.


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## Erich (Feb 4, 2006)

Yes the Pz IV's in communique in 45 although for the most part they were being phased out....not really just depleted so much that the Stugs were occupying at Kompanie strength in the Heer and W-SS Panzer regiments during the lat 6 months of the war.


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## plan_D (Feb 4, 2006)

Certainly were in the end of their days, the Panther was in larger numbers during the Ardennes Offensive ... but the Western Allied, and major tanks of the Red Army still had trouble against the Pz.IV ... only, really, the IS-2 of the Red Army was in a comfortable position against them. And even then .. comfortable is an over-statement,


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## Erich (Feb 4, 2006)

Stug III's and their 9th W-SS crewmen on manuevers pre Ost front ~ 1943


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## Erich (Feb 4, 2006)

another Heer Stug III Kommandeur giving his all on the Ost Front 1944


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## schwarzpanzer (Feb 4, 2006)

A lot of stories I was told when I was a kid were about Stugs, Hetzers, Panthers and IV's - suppose I'm lucky?

Some Stugs were made of mild steel, unhardened. - Wouldn't have wanna been in those!  

Also all PzIV production was converted to JgdPz/StuG IV's and StugIII production anhililated.

Anyone got that photo of a Stug crew ragging a T34 crew out after ramming it with their Stug? Think I saw it on here - Titled; Desperate means, desperate measures.


I disagree with you PlanD about the PzIV. The T34/76 and Sherman 76 were superior. But they were used well and as you said could even wreck an IS2 head-on in the right hands!


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## plan_D (Feb 4, 2006)

The Pz. Kpfw IV Ausf G - J were superior to the T-34/76 and M4 (76W) they had superior optical equipment. A heavier punch. Were more durable. And had the agility that provided no problems. The armour was weak, but the Pz.IV had the hitting power to nullify that by striking the enemy before the enemy could strike it.

You may not have wished to be in a StuG but they were deadly opponents. Compact, small and robust ... with the striking power of some of the best tanks in the field. StuG Abts. as has been stated by Erich were devestating on the Ost Front ... in the West ... well, a single StuG supported by 30 or so men could hold up a whole Allied column.

Care if I share some StuG pictures, Erich?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 5, 2006)

Erich are all these pictures of the men themselves yours?


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## Erich (Feb 5, 2006)

Plan thatns and continue posting please, or anyone with pics.........

Adler ....... 8)


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## plan_D (Feb 5, 2006)

They won't all be StuG III Gs ... I'll post some early As and Ds too ... okay if I post some StuHs too, Erich?


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## Gnomey (Feb 5, 2006)

Good stuff Erich and pD.


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## Erich (Feb 6, 2006)

anothjer kicking foto from the Fl. von Aufses archiv


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## plan_D (Feb 6, 2006)

Erich, do you have any information or stories about the StuGs in the early war years? Mainly preceding 1943? I ask because it seems all modern accounts of the war center around the "dying war" for Germany. Recently my interest has been focused on the days of German might and supremecy, the days where Germany _could_ have won the war. 

For example, _Fall Gelb_ is largely forgotten from the German point of view. It's more taken to be a French and British mistake. But, in reality, _Fall Gelb_ is one of, if not the, greatest military campaign in history! 

More StuGs and StuHs for all the viewing pleasure:


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## Erich (Feb 7, 2006)

Plan no I do not have any pre-43 materails or fotos sadly ........ unless I go through several German language Stug ABt. histories which would take a large amount of time


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## schwarzpanzer (Feb 7, 2006)

PlanD don't know if this'll interest you but early (L24 armed) StuG's used concrete-piercing rounds to knock out MatildaII's.



> Were more durable. And had the agility that provided no problems.



Of course I had to disagree on some points!  



> The armour was weak, but the Pz.IV had the hitting power to nullify that by striking the enemy before the enemy could strike it.



The same was true of the Hornisse - but I woudn't want one!  



> You may not have wished to be in a StuG but they were deadly opponents.



I meant the mild steel cheapo versions.


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## plan_D (Feb 7, 2006)

That's a shame, Erich. I'm sure there'll be information out there in English, I'll keep a keen eye out for it. 

Schwarz, the Hornisse would splatter anythin' it saw. And it did so on many-many occasions. The fact it had little armour protection did not matter, it would destroy enemy armour before the enemy could destroy it. It's not a case of whether you'd like to be in it or not - the facts speak for themselves, the superior weapon on the Pz.IV Ausf F/2 and onwards allowed it to remain a competitor throughout the war.


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## schwarzpanzer (Feb 12, 2006)

What exactly are you wanting PlanD? 

Who knows - I may have something?



> it would destroy enemy armour before the enemy could destroy it.



Not necessarily true, it's armour could be penetrated by tanks at ranges it itself could engage at. I know you'll inevitably mention optics yada, yada, yada but it was like the Sherman in being a big, easy and weak target.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 12, 2006)

Well you can pm me the stuff and I can try and translate it into English. Will take quite some time though because I leave on Tuesday and will not be home for quite some time.


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## plan_D (Feb 12, 2006)

Schwarz, you're obviously not that keen in armoured conflict if you descredit the important of optical equipment in armoured warfare. The Hornisse could hit and destroy enemy armour of both Soviet and Allied build outside the range that they could strike back. 

I'd be surprised if a Sherman could even launch a shell 3km and have a hope of hitting a barn door, let alone destroy it. 

Think of it as this; the Hornisse is a sniper with a K98 4x Optical Scope and the Sherman is a GI with a Colt .45. They spot each other at 600 metres apart ... who's going to win?


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## schwarzpanzer (Feb 13, 2006)

You get used to the quirks of a particular weapon/sight, so long as it hasn't got a wandering zero.

High-velocity cannons are easier to fire, yes, but barrels need to be replaced often (a failure of the KwK36 43, particularly early 1-piecers) maybe changing the zero and requiring re-adjustment.

The recoil mechanism of the early 88's also did not suit an AFV.



> I'd be surprised if a Sherman could even launch a shell 3km and have a hope of hitting a barn door, let alone destroy it.



The Hornisse is larger than your average barn door.  



> Think of it as this; the Hornisse is a sniper with a K98 4x Optical Scope and the Sherman is a GI with a Colt .45. They spot each other at 600 metres apart ... who's going to win?



That's an unfair comparison. It's not about _accuracy_, more _lethality_. The .45 was effective at 150m (theory) 50m (practical) the K98 Sniper 2 miles (theory) 800m (practical). The ranges a T-34 and Hornisse could kill each other were roughly equal, but even putting all that aside...

If the GI is hiding behind armour? If the GI is running and zig-zagging before getting in range? 

The Hornisse was offensive only, it had to be camouflaged/concealed. 

If it was seen 1st - it was dead. If it saw an enemy 1st - they were dead.


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## Udet (Feb 13, 2006)

Also of the very scarce M-26 Pershing tanks which managed to see any action in Europe -meaning very few of them-, one of them got gutted by a Hornisse, in just one shot. BOOM.


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## Ball Turret Gunner (Feb 13, 2006)

Hey Erich, do you still have a copy of the PK photo I made and sent to you a few yrs ago of an Assault gun that also had a squad of Armored Infantrymen mounting it? If so, please post it. If not, it will take me longer than I want to think before I can get another copy made.

Also, great thread you have here and much great info on the assault guns. I like that rail head shot of a Company of assault guns on the train.

PS, why does this site not allow me to spell words in German?


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## schwarzpanzer (Feb 14, 2006)

Udet said:


> Also of the very scarce M-26 Pershing tanks which managed to see any action in Europe -meaning very few of them-, one of them got gutted by a Hornisse, in just one shot. BOOM.



Yes, but a Pershing also took out a Tiger and 2 PzIV's. 8) PlanD mentioned a Super-Pershing even taking out a KonigsTiger!
 

I wonder what happened to that Hornisse? The "tiger of Vitbesk" was a good Hornisse ace. 8) 



Ball Turret Gunner said:


> PS, why does this site not allow me to spell words in German?



It does. I just leave out the umlauts, but I think someone on here used them once IIRC?


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## Erich (Feb 14, 2006)

what is the problem with Umlauts eh ? ö, ü, ß ä ..........hmm are you guys what ever keyborad you have making sure your numbers lock is on, because if it isnt you will not be able to punch them in.

turret gunner no I do not have that pic on file in the saved data base online

Gruß


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## Ball Turret Gunner (Feb 17, 2006)

I don't use amlauts. This site will not let me post if a word is not spelled correctly, or if I use a name, or make abbreviations.


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## Erich (Feb 17, 2006)

friend it is not the site that has the problems it is the server through the PC you are using as Umlauts are easily done ........ ä ö ß , etc ....... ♫


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## Erich (Feb 17, 2006)

another Kommandeur of a Stug III killed while part of a Panzer regiment near Stargard in winter of 45


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## evangilder (Feb 17, 2006)

He was so young looking


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## plan_D (Feb 18, 2006)

The Hornisse would be able to knock out a Sherman at 3,000 metres. It could also strike the enemy at that range. Just because the tank is weaving it doesn't mean it won't be hit. Snipers can hit moving targets, just like gunners can. 

A Ferdinand was reported to knock out of a T-34/76 at 4,500 metres. Whether the even is true or not can be brought into question. But it seems possible. And if the Ferdinand can do that to a T-34, the Hornisse can certainly do that to a Sherman.


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## schwarzpanzer (Feb 18, 2006)

Undoubtedly, I think there are Soviet reports confirming kills like these.

Halfaya pass saw kills on Shermans by Flak 88's at about 6 miles IIRC!

As you know, the Pak43 had even better performance...

What I mean is, the Sherman would still be able to reply.

A KonigsTiger would be completely safe in this instance.

(Unless the Sherman's radioman called in an airstrike!)


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## plan_D (Feb 18, 2006)

At 3,000 + metres the Hornisse would be completely safe, or at least almost. The Sherman optical equipment wouldn't give the gunner a chance in hell of hitting the Hornisse by aiming.


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## Erich (Feb 23, 2006)

another one dying at too young an age. Red waffenfarbe around the skull patches. though his death card says serving in an armored regiment specifically he probably served at Kompanie level. Stug III G's or ? in August of 44 in the Ost.


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## gaussianum (Mar 15, 2006)

I think the greatest panzer ace of all time (Witten, if I'm not mistaken) said that he had developed his tactics while he was commanding a Sturmgeschuetz.


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