# How effective were tail gunners in dive bombers.



## [SC] Arachnicus (Nov 20, 2012)

I have basically no knowledge of dive bombers that had tail gunners, so how effective were they when attacked by a enemy fighter? I saw a episode of Dogfights where a Dauntless faced a couple Zeros and I remember the pilot saying that the tail gunner couldn't do anything because he was being thrown around too much.

Also, I am building a scale model Stuka and while building, asked myself the question of how easy it would be to accidentally shoot up your own tail of the plane?


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## tyrodtom (Nov 20, 2012)

Any aircraft that had a tailgun had interupters that wouldn't let the gun fire when it was pointed at the tail assembly.
Even some WW1 aircraft used a post that wouldn't let the gun point at the tail, you had to go up and over it.

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## [SC] Arachnicus (Nov 20, 2012)

Interesting and thanks for the info.


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## tomo pauk (Nov 20, 2012)

[SC] Arachnicus;957798 said:


> I have basically no knowledge of dive bombers that had tail gunners, so how effective were they when attacked by a enemy fighter? I saw a episode of Dogfights where a Dauntless faced a couple Zeros and I remember the pilot saying that the tail gunner couldn't do anything because he was being thrown around too much.
> 
> Also, I am building a scale model Stuka and while building, asked myself the question of how easy it would be to accidentally shoot up your own tail of the plane?



In Dogfights episode, the SBDs are without bombs, in an anti-torpedo-plane duty, or something as an auxiliary fighter. As such they were not carrying any bombs, so they could try some dogfight vs. IJN fighters (that Swede Vejtasa succeed, should not fool anybody to think that SBD was also a good fighter). In dogfights, it's not hard to imagine that a rear gunner was of no use, apart to provide warning that someone is at own 6 o clock.
The bomb-carrying planes need a rear gunner to disrupt the enemy fighter from gaining an easy kill, they cannot count on getting the enemy fighter. Even so, when matched with equal number of properly positioned fighters, the dive bombers suffered accordingly. Even the speedy Judys vs. Hellcats.


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## davebender (Nov 20, 2012)

I think tail guns on dive and torpedo bombers were most effective at low altitude where fighter aircraft cannot take advantage of high speed and vertical maneuvers.


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## VBF-13 (Nov 24, 2012)

[SC] Arachnicus;957798 said:


> I have basically no knowledge of dive bombers that had tail gunners, so how effective were they when attacked by a enemy fighter? I saw a episode of Dogfights where a Dauntless faced a couple Zeros and I remember the pilot saying that the tail gunner couldn't do anything because he was being thrown around too much.


My Dad trained on SBDs and a good buddy of his trained on TBMs. In fact, my Dad took his carrier qualifications in Lake Michigan on an SBD. The primary purpose of the rear gun on both those aircraft was defense. They didn't send dive-bombers or torpedo-bombers into combat to dogfight, they sent the fighters in for that. Once the dive-bombers and torpedo-bombers did their job, they were instructed to get the hell out of there. I read on the Internet, I forget where, that "SBD" stands for "Slow But Deadly." How adorable. I'll bet it didn't take a whole lot of brains to come up with that one. Actually, the SBD was referred to as, the "Speedy D." And, that's the truth. Go figure...

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## Francis marliere (Nov 26, 2012)

In early 1942, the US carriers had only 18 fighters, not enough for maintening a strong CAP around the Task Force and escort the strike aircrafts. Hence, during the battle of the Coral Sea, some SBD were pressed on anti-torpedo patrol. If my memory is good, they were credited with 7 Kates but lost 7 planes to Zeroes and tail gunners. As far as I know, it was the only time that SBD were used in this role.

Best,

Francis Marliere


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## VBF-13 (Nov 26, 2012)

Francis marliere said:


> In early 1942, the US carriers had only 18 fighters, not enough for maintening a strong CAP around the Task Force and escort the strike aircrafts. Hence, during the battle of the Coral Sea, some SBD were pressed on anti-torpedo patrol. If my memory is good, they were credited with 7 Kates but lost 7 planes to Zeroes and tail gunners. As far as I know, it was the only time that SBD were used in this role.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Francis Marliere


I can understand that. While the SBDs weren't by any stretch of the imagination the bombing-fighting aircraft the later F6Fs were, when pressed, they were designed to "mix it up" with the enemy aircraft, as such, that's what those .50s on the nose were for.

Edit: Although, that said, its not surprising, being deployed to that secondary role, the Zeroes and tail gunners got them...


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## [SC] Arachnicus (Nov 26, 2012)

What a horrible job being a tail gunner. Not a pleasant feeling looking at the nose of the enemy with completely unnecessary sized rounds to remove parts of you.


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## meatloaf109 (Nov 26, 2012)

It comes down to this; All war sucks. Someone has to be the poor bastard in the rear cockpit, and someone has to be the poor bastard that spent three years on a rock in the middle of the Pacific typing endless reports. But never think that the one was more important than the other. We owe them all so much, They were the greatest generation. And they are going away fast. Find one and say "Thank you"!

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## Capt. Vick (Nov 26, 2012)

Ask Saburō Sakai how effective SBD rear gunners were:

From Wiki: Sakai was seriously wounded in a failed ambush near Tulagi of eight SBDs, a mixed flight from Bombing Squadrons Five and Six (VB-5 and VB-6).[10] Mistaking the SBDs for more Wildcat fighters, Sakai approached from below and behind, targeting a VB-6 Dauntless flown by Ens. Robert C. Shaw. The sturdy dive bombers with their rear-mounted twin 7.62 mm (0.3 in) machine guns proved tough adversaries, and a blast fired by one or more of the SBDs' rear gunners, possibly including Shaw's gunner, AO2/c Harold L. Jones, shattered and blew away the canopy of Sakai's Zero.[11]

The description of this aerial battle from Saburō Sakai is different.[12] He spotted eight planes in two flights of four and initially identified them as F4F Wildcat fighters. When he attacked - followed by three other Zero fighters, he discovered that the airplanes were TBF Avengers because he clearly distinguished the top turret and the ventral machine gun. He put in flames and shot down two of the TBF Avengers and these two victories (61st and 62nd) were verified by the other three Zero pilots but during this day, no TBF Avengers were reported lost.[12] This is an example how even an experienced pilot during the heat of battle, may not identify correctly enemy airplanes or receive verified credit for airplanes not shot down.


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## Barrett (Mar 29, 2018)

Sakai's book was coauthored by a Japanese-American reporter (Fred Saito) and marketed here by Martin Caidin who assigned himself coauthor status. Giving Sakai the benefit of the doubt, it's possible that he misidentified the SBDs as F4Fs and Caidin undoubtedly "corrected" that to TBFs. "Samurai" contains some demonstrably inaccurate statements with some aliases or people who did not exist. But it remains a classic of aviation literature. Henry Sakaida straightened out the whole thing in the 80s when we published "Winged Samurai" at Champlin Press. I won't itemize Caidin's flaws here, but he was not at all happy when I corrected his errors in the introduction to the Naval Institute Press edition of "Samurai."

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## BiffF15 (Mar 30, 2018)

Barrett said:


> Sakai's book was coauthored by a Japanese-American reporter (Fred Saito) and marketed here by Martin Caidin who assigned himself coauthor status. Giving Sakai the benefit of the doubt, it's possible that he misidentified the SBDs as F4Fs and Caidin undoubtedly "corrected" that to TBFs. "Samurai" contains some demonstrably inaccurate statements with some aliases or people who did not exist. But it remains a classic of aviation literature. Henry Sakaida straightened out the whole thing in the 80s when we published "Winged Samurai" at Champlin Press. I won't itemize Caidin's flaws here, but he was not at all happy when I corrected his errors in the introduction to the Naval Institute Press edition of "Samurai."



Barrett,

Thanks for the info I just picked up a copy off of Amazon,

Cheers,
Biff


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## swampyankee (Mar 30, 2018)

I suspect that naval WW2-era dive bombers were very maneuverable when lightly loaded, because their wings were sized for low takeoff speeds from pre-catapult carriers. The SBD even had leading edge slots, so it would retain roll control when a good chunk of the wing was stalled.


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## Shortround6 (Mar 30, 2018)

The TBF also had slots. However being expected to land on board with the torpedo means you want all the low stall speed and low speed control you can get


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## Conslaw (Apr 6, 2018)

John Lundstrom determined that the planes that shot up Sakai were SBDs from Bombing 6 and Scouting 5 rather than TBFs. It would make sense that it would be a SBD. It would be much harder for Sakai to have survived a .50 caliber bullet from the top turret of a TBF as compared to a .30 caliber round from an SBD. BTW, this was the first battle between the Tainan air group and the United States Navy. The naval planes were not wholely familiar to the Japanese aviators.

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## swampyankee (Apr 7, 2018)

While Caidin’s book on Sakai has a lot of flaws — Caidin was a much better story teller than historian — it did, I think, do a lot to humanize the Japanese military personnel, who were far more dehumanized than those of Germany, even those in the Einzatcommando.

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## wlewisiii (Apr 7, 2018)

Barrett said:


> Sakai's book was coauthored by a Japanese-American reporter (Fred Saito) and marketed here by Martin Caidin who assigned himself coauthor status. Giving Sakai the benefit of the doubt, it's possible that he misidentified the SBDs as F4Fs and Caidin undoubtedly "corrected" that to TBFs. "Samurai" contains some demonstrably inaccurate statements with some aliases or people who did not exist. But it remains a classic of aviation literature. Henry Sakaida straightened out the whole thing in the 80s when we published "Winged Samurai" at Champlin Press. I won't itemize Caidin's flaws here, but he was not at all happy when I corrected his errors in the introduction to the Naval Institute Press edition of "Samurai."



I remember reading the book as a teen. His (Sakai's) comments on the P-40 were the first inkling I had that the plane was better than it's post-war reputation made it out to be. Still I would like to see a corrected version, I'll have to find a copy of the Naval Institute Press edition. Thank you for your work on it and your post here.

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## Dimlee (Apr 8, 2018)

Sorry, wrong thread. How to delete this post?


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## Conslaw (Apr 12, 2018)

Although this is not 100% on point as to the effectiveness of tail gunners, anyone reading this thread will probably find this article interesting. -Interviews with tailgunners who fought at Midway. Rear-Seat Gunners at Midway | U.S. Naval Institute


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## mc2 (May 25, 2018)

My dad was the gunner on WWII torpedo bombers. His carrier was the last one sunk in WWII, durng Iwo Jima...the USS Bismarck Sea. Told me that his friend he kept afloat for hours died after they were pulled out of the water. He said that during Iwo, after their first run, he was tasked with hand mixng napalm to reload aboard the planes because the bombs they normally used were ineffective on the caves. After his carrier was sunk, by the time he was able to make it back to the States, his family had already been told he was dead and had held his funeral and burial. His mother passed out when he called home, which was the phone at the corner store. I still have a hard time imagining my dad as a teenaged gunner aboard a dive bomber. He enlisted under the "kiddie cruise," underage, with his mom's permission. He is on the right in the photo, having just landed with his crew. He was 6'3" and said it was "real tight in there."
My uncle survived being aboard the USS Arizona at Pearl Harbor. My kid brother just retired from 30+ years in the NIS and was the senior officer who got all the terrorists who bombed the USS Cole convicted in Yemen.

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## fubar57 (May 25, 2018)

Welcome to the forum. Great stuff about your family


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## Tieleader (May 26, 2018)

mc2 said:


> My dad was the gunner on WWII torpedo bombers. His carrier was the last one sunk in WWII, durng Iwo Jima...the USS Bismarck Sea. Told me that his friend he kept afloat for hours died after they were pulled out of the water. He said that during Iwo, after their first run, he was tasked with hand mixng napalm to reload aboard the planes because the bombs they normally used were ineffective on the caves. After his carrier was sunk, by the time he was able to make it back to the States, his family had already been told he was dead and had held his funeral and burial. His mother passed out when he called home, which was the phone at the corner store. I still have a hard time imagining my dad as a teenaged gunner aboard a dive bomber. He enlisted under the "kiddie cruise," underage, with his mom's permission. He is on the right in the photo, having just landed with his crew. He was 6'3" and said it was "real tight in there."
> My uncle survived being aboard the USS Arizona at Pearl Harbor. My kid brother just retired from 30+ years in the NIS and was the senior officer who got all the terrorists who bombed the USS Cole convicted in Yemen.


Thanks to all your family that served! I can see that the Navy runs in the family. Welcome to the site, stick around and learn all sorts of things from your Dad's time and up!


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## mc2 (May 26, 2018)

Tieleader said:


> Thanks to all your family that served! I can see that the Navy runs in the family. Welcome to the site, stick around and learn all sorts of things from your Dad's time and up!



Thanks guys. Both my dad and uncle never talked about their WWII service most of their lives. My dad had told me when I was a little kid (because I asked) that my uncle walked funny because he had his feet reattached at the ankles from injuries at Pearl Harbor. My dad only finally answered a few questions in his final year or so and showed me a few photos he had. I think I only saw my brother four times over the thirty years he served because he was usually at sea or undercover somewhere. They gave him the U.S. Flag off the embassy in Yemen, after he got all the terrorists convicted...he gave it to my dad. For Memorial Day, I wanted to add this video footage of my dad's carrier being sunk by Kamakazee during Iwo Jima. 
_View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rxTRVRJM5tA

The USS Bismarck Sea sank with the loss of 318 men, and was the last US Navy aircraft carrier to be lost during World War II. Three destroyers and three destroyer escorts rescued survivors over the next 12 hours, between them saving a total of 605 officers and men from her crew of 923._

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## Tieleader (May 26, 2018)

mc2 said:


> Thanks guys. Both my dad and uncle never talked about their WWII service most of their lives. My dad had told me when I was a little kid (because I asked) that my uncle walked funny because he had his feet reattached at the ankles from injuries at Pearl Harbor. My dad only finally answered a few questions in his final year or so and showed me a few photos he had. I think I only saw my brother four times over the thirty years he served because he was usually at sea or undercover somewhere. They gave him the U.S. Flag off the embassy in Yemen, after he got all the terrorists convicted...he gave it to my dad. For Memorial Day, I wanted to add this video footage of my dad's carrier being sunk by Kamakazee during Iwo Jima.
> _View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rxTRVRJM5tA
> 
> The USS Bismarck Sea sank with the loss of 318 men, and was the last US Navy aircraft carrier to be lost during World War II. Three destroyers and three destroyer escorts rescued survivors over the next 12 hours, between them saving a total of 605 officers and men from her crew of 923._



Life was tough enough aboard those jeep carriers as it was. More so with the Japanese trying to kill you. Sorry to hear your relatives never talked about their times (completely understandable of course) but its a shame because these guys are the ONLY true source of what went on during those terrible times.Don't believe the books.95% of them are wrong to one degree or another. If you want some real stories check out Bill Runnels' entries in the "stories" section. So worth the read and he will answer back if you have a question. Take advantage of the situation will you can !

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## mc2 (May 27, 2018)

BTW.....I think my dad's plane was a Grumman Avenger ? Well, my dad became a NYC police officer after the war and, after he retired from the NYPD, ended up working security at the Grumman factory on Long Island that built his plane. Ironic full circle, some 50 years later, no?

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