# Britain’s love/hate relationship with ‘foreigners’ during the Second World War



## v2 (Jun 13, 2015)

The Second World War is not usually remembered as a time when Britain's population was diverse. Yet, as Professor Wendy Webster from the University of Huddersfield reveals in her new book, it was more diverse than ever before. But while Britons largely welcomed foreign servicemen, their attitude often turned frosty – even hostile – when the war was over…

full article I found: 
Britain?s love/hate relationship with ?foreigners? during the Second World War | History Extra

_What do you think about that?_


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## The Basket (Jun 13, 2015)

You trying to say something?

From what I know most Brit anger was towards the Yankee Doodles and not Johnny Foreigners as most Brits would probably not class Americans as foreign.


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## buffnut453 (Jun 13, 2015)

I'm trying to figure out what's changed in the intervening 70 years??? 

I'll get me coat..!


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## yulzari (Jun 13, 2015)

The Basket said:


> You trying to say something?
> 
> From what I know most Brit anger was towards the Yankee Doodles and not Johnny Foreigners as most Brits would probably not class Americans as foreign.



No disrespect to those who live between Mexico and Canada, but I beg to differ. Pedantically I should widen this as anyone hailing from Baffin Island to Tierra del Fuego is American. People from the USA? Fine chaps no doubt but still Johnny Foreigners. Now France is only a 20 minute train ride away and there are enough French people in London to have their own French MP and the rural West of France is becoming more British every day (the supermarkets have British food sections and my local DIY shop is bilingually signed). The USA is thousands of miles away, even the street furniture is weirdly different. Not Yank knocking but merely saying that Americans are firmly (but politely) in the Johnny Foreigner class. Doubtless Americans see the British also as just another foreigner, in the Yurrupean class.


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## The Basket (Jun 13, 2015)

It would be interesting to see if other UK residents see Yanks as foreign.
The Amis do speak English...sort of.
Americans and Brits eat the same food watch the same TV shows and listen to same music.
I wouldn't class Australia or NZ foreign either.
I think V2 is trying to grind an axe for some agenda. Considering the number of Poles over in the UK he is trying to say or perform an idea.


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## pbehn (Jun 13, 2015)

V2 an interesting question. Every generation considers itself more knowledgeable than those before. However Post WW2 UK was a strange nation. There had been over 4 million soldiers in WW1 who had served overseas not for a few weeks holiday as today but for years, these mainly male ex service people were a large part of British life, many of the senior ranks in the WW2 services were ex ww1 veterans but the rest were joe public. The Merchant navy had approximately 120,000 sailors who travelled the world. Many in the RAF trained abroad and served abroad, soldiers and sailors in the Army and Navy spent years abroad. There were up to 2 million US servicemen spent some time in UK and 70,000 GI brides left to join them after the war ended. That is on top of the approx 250,000 Poles and 10s of thousands of other nationalities that served. In the Churchill was half American (US) Park the man trusted to defend Britain in a fight for survival was from New Zealand, the man charged with increasing aircraft production was half Canadian. 

The actual article itself makes me fume. It is easy to do a sort of retrospective "Vox pop" to suit a modern agenda. In my life I have travelled to world. Working in 1986 close to Glasgow it was routine to be asked "what are you doing here stealing our boys jobs" the last time I was told to go home and stop stealing a locals job was 4 years ago in France. The article links a poll of people with execution of Poles as if the people asked KNEW anyone deported would be shot. Complete bollocks. Even in my lifetime (born 1959) the goings on in Russia/Soviet Union were not known. There were approximately 400,000 German prisoners of War in UK in 1946 there were 250,000 of these 25,000 stayed in the UK. Towards the end of the war and after the end of hostilities even German ex POWs were citizens allowed to work and live.

I worked in the Steel industry in North England (Hartlepool) in the 1970s there were a good few first generation Poles in the factory although it took a while to notice because they spoke with the local accent and everyone used first names. My sunday ice cream came on a van from an Italian called Rea (Chris Rea's father) and for a while my local fish and chip shop was run by an Italian (it must have broken his heart).

The article focuses on differences. American and British soldiers had a brawl! British soldiers brawl with themselves American soldiers brawl with themselves but a massive surprise and newsworthy when they brawl with each other.

What happened to Poland was a tragedy not only during the War but after it too. What could the UK do? even if we had worldwide support fighting Russia would have been years more of war with Poland on the front line. There are many things the British should regret about what happened and we do but I must say it a matter of great satisfaction to give Lech Walesa a state banquet, the highest state honour that can be given by a visiting head of state and an honour never extended to any Russian (principally because they killed Prince Philips relatives).


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## pbehn (Jun 13, 2015)

The Basket said:


> I think V2 is trying to grind an axe for some agenda. Considering the number of Poles over in the UK he is trying to say or perform an idea.



I think the Author of the article he quotes is doing that. The principle area of friction that I read about with USA servicemen was GI brides and trying to impose a colour bar in various Pubs. Harry Patch covered it quite a bit in his autobiography. I would say from what I read that the Americans were a bit incredulous that we didnt have a colour bar and saw no reason to impose one.


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## pbehn (Jun 13, 2015)

yulzari said:


> No disrespect to those who live between Mexico and Canada, but I beg to differ. Pedantically I should widen this as anyone hailing from Baffin Island to Tierra del Fuego is American. People from the USA? Fine chaps no doubt but still Johnny Foreigners. Now France is only a 20 minute train ride away and there are enough French people in London to have their own French MP and the rural West of France is becoming more British every day (the supermarkets have British food sections and my local DIY shop is bilingually signed). The USA is thousands of miles away, even the street furniture is weirdly different. Not Yank knocking but merely saying that Americans are firmly (but politely) in the Johnny Foreigner class. Doubtless Americans see the British also as just another foreigner, in the Yurrupean class.



Americans cannot see the Brits as foreigners. where would they get their blockbuster movie criminals from? US citizens may be loud brash a right up themselves when abroad, their young men earned them that right. Personally I have found Americans to be slightly nervous and unsure of themselves when abroad and a different animal when at home.


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## GrauGeist (Jun 13, 2015)

yulzari said:


> *No disrespect to those who live between Mexico and Canada, but I beg to differ. Pedantically I should widen this as anyone hailing from Baffin Island to Tierra del Fuego is American*. People from the USA? Fine chaps no doubt but still Johnny Foreigners. Now France is only a 20 minute train ride away and there are enough French people in London to have their own French MP and the rural West of France is becoming more British every day (the supermarkets have British food sections and my local DIY shop is bilingually signed). The USA is thousands of miles away, even the street furniture is weirdly different. Not Yank knocking but merely saying that Americans are firmly (but politely) in the Johnny Foreigner class. Doubtless Americans see the British also as just another foreigner, in the Yurrupean class.


I find it interesting that lately, there has been a "push" to quit referring to People from the United States as "Americans".

When I was in Europe a few years ago, I was corrected by a lady in Greece when she asked where I was from. I replied simply "America" and she smiled and said "Oh, which part? North America or South America? My reply was that I meant I was an American and again, she smiled and said "you know there really isn't such a thing".

I thought for a moment (trying to be diplomatic) and told her that out of all the nations in the Americas, the United States of America is the only nation with the name of the continent in it, therefore we were Americans by virtue of the name.

This was only one of several instances, and the general consensus is that Americans are arrogant and claim the entire continent as their own, hence the name. However, Americans have been referred to as such, even while the French, Spain and to a lesser degree, Britain, possesed large portions of North America.

And I have never heard a Canadian say they were American, because, like, they're Canadians, eh?

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## Capt. Vick (Jun 13, 2015)

You guys are generalizing Americans way too much. I don't care who you are or what you think, if you look in the mirror you will see an American looking back at you because as a nation of immigrants whoever you are, someone just like you once pulled up stakes from your neck of the woods and for good or ill came over here and tried their luck.

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## The Basket (Jun 14, 2015)

What some professor from some nondescript university writes 70 years later is about the worth of a bucket of spit.
I would wager most Poles happily stayed in the UK rather than go home and find themselves at Stalins mercy.
If you want to blame a country for the fate of Poland then blame Germany or the Russians don't blame or criticise the UK.

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## fastmongrel (Jun 14, 2015)

v2 said:


> _What do you think about that?_



I think its a badly written (or possibly badly edited) article that makes little sense beyond the headline.


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## Glider (Jun 14, 2015)

With the population of England and the vast number of foreign troops in the UK I believe that were in the UK the overwhelming majority got on really well. Of course there were exceptions and I am sure that if you want to prove a point with an exception you will find one.
During the war my mother worked in a Norwegian shipping line and for that reason she was in a reserved occupation and wasn't allowed to join up and had nothing but praise for the people from overseas of all nationalities. It only became a problem if they tried to impose their beliefs on the public. 
The French could be like that but again only a minority and racist behaviour was definitely frowned on. In Liverpool my mother told me about a local pub that was better than the average and some of the first US personnel they saw were coloured unit that was used to build the first airbases. Their music and behaviour went down really well and a small quartet would often play in the bar. Then some white troops arrived and tried to impose their attitude on other is the pub the public threw them out. The next they knew it was designated an officers only pub for US troops and the publican then banned all US troops. In the end everyone did the obvious thing and let anyone in. I should emphasise again that we are only talking about a small minority.
Liverpool might have been a little different from most because it was a centre for the merchant navy, a high proportion of the merchant navy crews came from countries around the world and it was a very integrated area, mixed marriages were not unusual . As a result any racist behaviour was stamped on by old Jo Public, the police didn't have to do that much.


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## redcoat (Jun 20, 2015)

v2 said:


> The Second World War is not usually remembered as a time when Britain's population was diverse. Yet, as Professor Wendy Webster from the University of Huddersfield reveals in her new book, it was more diverse than ever before. But while Britons largely welcomed foreign servicemen, their attitude often turned frosty – even hostile – when the war was over…
> 
> full article I found:
> Britain?s love/hate relationship with ?foreigners? during the Second World War | History Extra
> ...


The foreigners during the war were helping free the world from Nazism and putting their lives on the line doing it, so of course the vast majority of British were welcoming and friendly to them.
After the war, the foreigners who stayed were seen to be by some as nicking jobs off our local lads and taking advantage of our benefit system, so of course there wasn't the same level of respect.


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## nuuumannn (Jun 24, 2015)

NZers and Aussies are referred to even to this day as Colonials and Antipodeans in a slightly derogatory fashion - trust me; I saw this every day I lived in the UK for ten years. Not that I cared - I'm proud of who I am and where I'm from - when I lived in Australia I was reminded, often rudely that I was a Kiwi every day - again, I didn't care; I love Australia, great place.

The class system in the UK is still quite some institution. Its not a dislike of foreigners as such, but more of a hierarchical thing. Hereditary Peers and all that. The members of the upper crust - the Landed Gentry mind, not "New Money" - it's not about how much money you have. These guys believe that by birth right they are superior - no irony, no overt racism, just an overwhelming trust and belief in the order of things. These guys had/have considerable influence on how foreigners are regarded in the UK.


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## buffnut453 (Jun 24, 2015)

nuuumannn said:


> The class system in the UK is still quite some institution. Its not a dislike of foreigners as such, but more of a hierarchical thing. Hereditary Peers and all that. The members of the upper crust - the Landed Gentry mind, not "New Money" - it's not about how much money you have. These guys believe that by birth right they are superior - no irony, no overt racism, just an overwhelming trust and belief in the order of things. These guys had/have considerable influence on how foreigners are regarded in the UK.



Sorry, mate, but have to strongly disagree with you on this one. The vast majority of Brits don't know or interact with anyone who's "Landed Gentry", and even if they do they're not likely to be influenced. Mass opinion is shaped more by the tabloid media, the still-prevalent unions (talk about a counterbalance to the class system!) and summer holidays to the fleshpots of Majorca (other continental fleshpots are available). 

I've seen all ends of the class system having grown up in a (very) working class background but served as a military officer alongside "old money" Army officers, many of whom were considered not very capable. In 20 years' service, I never saw an instance of someone being promoted just because they had the right name or family ties, nor did I see any obsequiousness from "normal" lads like me to those of the Landed Gentry class. Yes, the old-money types could name-drop 'til the cows came home but they had to prove their professional merits just like the rest of us. Getting the right person for the job was the driving factor, not having the right family connections.


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## nuuumannn (Jun 24, 2015)

Maybe not so much now, but back during the war (the time frame of the thread), highly likely. The further back in time you go the greater their influence until the Landed Gentry make up the government. I also don't disagree with you about the armed forces, but the superiority thing - its there, still today - I experienced it while I was there.


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## buffnut453 (Jun 24, 2015)

I can agree with those sentiments...and with the self-perceived superiority. Interestingly, the same is true of many among the working class who seek to prevent their kids "getting ideas above their station". There's nothing inherent in British society that pushes talented, but poor, people down other than their own peers not wanting others to succeed. As we used to say back home, "There's nowt so queer as folk!" (rough translation: people are strange).

As for those superiority notions, most of us just laughed at them. Interestingly, now I live on the other side of The Pond, I see a whole new implementation of the concept - the "gated community". Now there's a sight to behold!


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## pbehn (Jun 24, 2015)

Anyone commenting on the British class system obviously hasnt met a French person educated at a top Lycee. Every criticism is about "education" when they really mean wealth they are the only ones who can afford the education they had much like old Etonians. I will now indulge in a fantasy centered around the young Bush Clinton and Kennedy children dropping into a bar for a drink with their friends from the car factory. The very very rich in every country have children who are spoiled and entitled.

I would point out that in WW1 the landed gentries numbers were decimated as they joined up as officers and led their men to the slaughter, frequently copping it first.


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## stona (Jun 24, 2015)

I'm always taken aback when I here audio of Australian officers during WW2 to discover they have hardly a trace of the accent so familiar today. This was certainly not so for the Americans who were certainly considered far more 'foreign' than men from the Dominions.

In the mid war years British civilians were most likely to meet airmen from far flung countries. There were never enough Kiwis, Aussies, Saffies etc to man their own squadrons and so they were always integrated with their British comrades. The Canadians did _'huddle on their own' _as Harris put it, and were consequently often taken for Americans by people less familiar with the nuances of North American accents than we might be today.

By December 1943 there were 283,000 Americans in the UK as part of the 8th AF alone. They certainly did cause problems. One woman keeping a diary for Mass Observation described them, predictably, as _"loud, bombastic, bragging and self-righteous". _Dislike of Americans was widespread, usually based on the servicemen's perceived _"boastfulness", "immaturity"_ and _"materialism"_ 

Some of these were established prejudices, but the behaviour of very young men, a long way from home certainly didn't help. As early as December 1942 the British warned US commanders that _"unbridled speech"_ was causing embarrassment to Anglo-American relations and threatened to cut off all supplies of alcohol to the Command. General Marshall wrote to all senior US commanders warning that US officers had encouraged a _"marked hostility and contempt for the British"._
The Americans tried hard to educate their young men into treating their British hosts with greater respect, but the Provost Marshall of the 8th AF complained in a lengthy report of the _"Limey complex" _ which made them indifferent to their hosts unless there was _"the prospect of sex"_.
A Special Service study showed that only 2% of US servicemen had visited a British home.

It was a serious problem that despite continued and intensive efforts by the various US Commands was never overcome. Eaker once joked that out of three possible crimes his men might commit, murder, rape and _"interference with Anglo-American relations"_, the first two might, under certain circumstances, be pardoned,_ "but the third one, never"_

Cheers

Steve


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## buffnut453 (Jun 24, 2015)

To be honest, there will be problems any time a foreign person/contingent goes into a country and starts telling the locals how they've screwed things up and how they should do things better. The nationalities involved don't really matter...it's just the nature of things. For the locals, such "well-intentioned advice" tends, in my experience, to go down like the proverbial mug of chilled vomit.


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## stona (Jun 24, 2015)

buffnut453 said:


> To be honest, there will be problems any time a foreign person/contingent goes into a country and starts telling the locals how they've screwed things up and how they should do things better. The nationalities involved don't really matter...it's just the nature of things. For the locals, such "well-intentioned advice" tends, in my experience, to go down like the proverbial mug of chilled vomit.



That doesn't square with Marshall's view that his officers had encouraged "marked hostility and contempt for the British".

The US forces generally saw this as a serious problem and invested considerable resources in efforts to educate their men and mitigate the problem. In the 1940s Americans were definitely perceived as far more 'foreign' than men from the Dominions. There were still much stronger ties, 'kith and kin', to countries like Australia, New Zealand and South Africa than exist today. Men from such countries also had a much better understanding of British culture and customs, many of which they shared, than young Americans could aspire to, even if they attended all the lectures their commanders put on for them.
A typical Australian or New Zealand airman would be a relatively highly educated young man and the system through which he had been educated was identical in all but minor detail to that through which a similar Briton would have been educated. Again, this was not so for one of those young Americans.

Differences are even today less than one might imagine. A member of my own family was a senior policeman in our Metropolitan Police who was, a few years ago, offered a senior post in Australia's Queensland Police, the two services (and the law they enforce) still being similar enough for this to be possible.

Cheers

Steve


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## buffnut453 (Jun 24, 2015)

That's why I put "well-intentioned" in quotes. National pride often involves denigrating people from other nations, irrespective of one's place of origin. The problem can be exacerbated where there's "history" between the nations involved (eg US/UK, UK/Australia etc). What starts out as gentle banter can escalate...conversely, some skip the entire "gentle banter" option and adopt a more phobic attitude to one or more nationalities. Understandably, such attitudes tend to rub people up the wrong way. For American officers to land in Britain in 1942 and actively promote hostility towards their British hosts, who'd been at war for 3 years by then, was crass in the extreme...but it clearly happened. No doubt residents in Majorca and elsewhere have little good to say about many British summer exports to their shores.


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## stona (Jun 24, 2015)

I think that it is dangerous to apply late 20th/early 21st century thinking to a problem from the 1940s. In this era of mass communication and cheap travel it is easy to forget just how foreign those young Americans appeared to the British and of course just how foreign Britain appeared to those men.
The vast majority of Britons had never seen or heard an American except on the big screen at the local Odeon or whatever. British ideas of America were just as distorted as American ideas about Britain. Stereotypes still exist today, but carry much less weight in the face of personal experience.

My own mother told me that a friend had pointed out an African American service man to her and told her that he had a tail. Such appalling ignorance would be much harder to explain today. 

Lets not forget that less than twenty years before these hundreds of thousands of Americans arrived, Britons seeing and hearing the first 'talking pictures' claimed not to be able to understand the American accent 
Now of course we are all familiar with each others accents because of the worldwide media which we enjoy today. This doesn't mean I can understand a drunk Geordie, and he only lives a couple of hundred miles away!

Cheers

Steve


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## buffnut453 (Jun 24, 2015)

That's ok, I couldn't understand a sober Geordie...even if you could find one! 

You're absolutely right, although the Age of Empire meant that many Britons were more deeply immersed in foreign cultures than are today's package holiday crowd. Agree the man-in-the-street would have a much narrower view, though.


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## pbehn (Jun 24, 2015)

buffnut453 said:


> That's ok, I couldn't understand a sober Geordie...even if you could find one!



Oi whats with the geordie bashing!

From what I have read Americans were seen as something exotic having accents from the movies. Most people especially women didnt travel far from where they were born so people from a different continent were fascinating. The Americans themselves were a huge group thrown together by war from cities and farms all over the USA. Todays people watchers and psychologists would have had a field day with all that "interaction" by and large I think most from all sides got on with it and made the best of what they could.


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## buffnut453 (Jun 24, 2015)

Sorry, pbehn, just too tempting a target. None intended...


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## stona (Jun 24, 2015)

pbehn said:


> Oi whats with the geordie bashing!



I can usually understand a sober one 

Cheers

Steve


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## Airframes (Jun 24, 2015)

I can't, and I _am_ one !!


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## pbehn (Jun 24, 2015)

Airframes said:


> I can't, and I _am_ one !!



If you were one you would say "I are one" I am a smoggie not a Geordie so I understand them but see no point at all in listening to them. The most impenetrable dialect in UK is from Airdrie. I stayed in a guest house in Hamilton near Glasgow and the owners son had a girlfriend from Airdrie. No one on the squad we were with could understand a word, the son convinced his mother she was going deaf, he could only understand half of what she said but said all her family spoke the same and understood each other perfectly. Not gallic or gaelic just completely atrocious English. 

sorry off topic.


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## pbehn (Jun 24, 2015)

buffnut453 said:


> Sorry, pbehn, just too tempting a target. None intended...


Curious fact about Geordies, Newcastle is the only city in UK where men's clothes shops outsell womens in volume and price, they wouldnt be seen in a gutter in anything that wasnt silk and designer label.


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## nuuumannn (Jul 4, 2015)

> getting ideas above their station



That's an interesting point; I also encountered this in Scotland in poorer areas; whilst they had no love for the middle/upper classes, I found that they were very critical of their own who had moved away from their roots. Back home they call this Tall Poppy Syndrome and it can be found in all layers of society; an envy of those who do better for themselves.


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