# Old Thailand Aircrash



## islandee (Sep 11, 2020)

I've been given a report describing aircraft wreckage sitting on a mountainside in Mae Hong Son Province, Thailand --- the northwesterly-most corner of the country. The site is not easily accessed, as in a 2-hour 4-wheel drive up a river bed followed by a 2-hour hike. And directions are not at all clear. Not the sort of trip to do in the current (very) rainy season with flooding, washouts, landslides, dengue fever, etc, and concerns about a coronapanic lockdown being reactivated.

From the limited information given about the wreck, I've checked a list of Thai military aircraft in Young, _Aerial Nationalism_ (Washington: Smithsonian, 1995), pp 261-262, and find the only American, 9-cylinder, 2-blade prop aircraft is a Vought Corsair V93S. The model was purchased in 1934 and saw action during WW2.

With that as a hint, I pass the following details from the report to the forum and ask if anyone can confirm that identification from these details. A caution: the description is translated from Thai and terminology may be misleading.

"Shock parts & wheel hub with numbers 1 USA, ALS 4125, El 1241 AF BIC 2 F"

Inscriptions from "two aluminum plates thought to be from a wing" (see sketch "ww2_image_1.jpg")

A radial, 9-cylinder engine (see photo "ww2_image_2.jpg"), with various numbers (not visible in the photo): "14140 H 12414 L GRP 11"

A 2-bladed propeller

An unknown device that looks like a housing (see photo "ww2_image_3.jpg"). The letters "HAYES" are barely legible in the photo.

The report is dated 1998. The photos are dated 14 Mar 1998 and are obviously the result of several generations of copying; unfortunately better copies don't seem to be available.

Hak Hakanson
Chiang Mai

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## SaparotRob (Oct 4, 2020)

islandee said:


> I've been given a report describing aircraft wreckage sitting on a mountainside in Mae Hong Son Province, Thailand --- the northwesterly-most corner of the country. The site is not easily accessed, as in a 2-hour 4-wheel drive up a river bed followed by a 2-hour hike. And directions are not at all clear. Not the sort of trip to do in the current (very) rainy season with flooding, washouts, landslides, dengue fever, etc, and concerns about a coronapanic lockdown being reactivated.
> 
> From the limited information given about the wreck, I've checked a list of Thai military aircraft in Young, _Aerial Nationalism_ (Washington: Smithsonian, 1995), pp 261-262, and find the only American, 9-cylinder, 2-blade prop aircraft is a Vought Corsair V93S. The model was purchased in 1934 and saw action during WW2.
> 
> ...


What’s the closest town to the location?


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## islandee (Oct 13, 2020)

In the case of the Corsair, about 20 km south of Mae Hong Son City.

For the Japanese aircraft, near Omkoi.

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## SaparotRob (Oct 13, 2020)

islandee said:


> In the case of the Corsair, about 20 km south of Mae Hong Son City.
> 
> For the Japanese aircraft, near Omkoi.


Thanks. We might be headed Khon Kaen way in a few months. Depends on travel hassle issues. 
I’d like to check it out, wife permitting.


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## islandee (Nov 2, 2020)

Another crash in Thailand, involving the IJAAF, and new to me: no reference I've found is clear about where it occurred, but I gather it would have been at or very near Lampang Airfield. I'm wondering if anyone might have additional information? Here's what I do have:

*1.* Umemoto [梅本弘 (Umemoto, Hiroshi), _ビルマ航空戦・上 _(Air War in Burma, Vol 1) (Tokyo: Dai Nippon, 2002)] includes in his log the crash of one or more 31st Sentai Ki-30 light bombers attempting to land presumably somewhere around Lampang during low visibility on 19 Feb 1942. 

Umemoto describes (I include the Japanese because the Google Translation to English seems very weak): 

2月19日

2/31 九七軽 不明 ランパン付近河原 帰途・煙霧、黄砂のため地点標定ができず 不時着大破・人員無事 

2/31 九七軽 不明 ランパン付近河原 帰途・煙霧、黄砂のため地点標定ができず 不時着・人機とも帰還 

which Google translates (roughly) as:

Date: February 19
Unit: 2/31 
Crashed aircraft: Type 97 light bomber [Ki-30]
Pilot: unknown 
Location: Kawahara near Lampang 
Cause: Returning home, haze, yellow sand made it impossible to locate [the home base, Lampang Airfield]
Details: Crash landing on you, and personnel were safe

Unit: 2/31 
Crashed aircraft: Type 97 light bomber [Ki-30] 
Pilot: unknown 
Location: Kawahara near Lampang 
Cause: Returning to the river ・ Haze and yellow sand made it impossible to locate the location
Details: Both crash landing and human aircraft returned 
[This second event is listed in total five times; ie, five additional Ki-30s in the 31st Sentai, presumably in that same flight, all met the same landing conditions and crashed without loss of life]

If "Kawahara" is properly translated, there is no "Kawahara" that I can find near Lampang.

Umemoto's commentary covering that period, pp 57-71, doesn't seem to mention the incident.

*2. *_Senshi Sosho_ volume 34's only comment appears to be on p 599. In (Google) translation, "On the way back, the 31st Squadron was unable to locate the location [Lampang] due to the haze, and was / were swept away by a strong southwesterly wind, leaving one aircraft uncertain."

*3.* Shores, et al, _Bloody Shambles_, volume 2, pp 269-270: ". . . 31st Sentai bombers, escorted by 77th Sentai Ki-27s attacked Pyinmana station, 50 miles north of Toungoo. On the return flight heavy mist was encountered and one bomber was lost; three more were seriously damaged in force-landings."

*4.* Steve Darke doesn't mention it in his webpage, Thai Air Accidents.

*5.* I don't believe that Dan Ford mentions the event on-line or in his book, _Flying Tigers_, since it didn't involve the AVG.


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## MiTasol (Nov 2, 2020)

islandee said:


> "Shock parts & wheel hub with numbers 1 USA, ALS 4125, El 1241 AF BIC 2 F"
> 
> An unknown device that looks like a housing (see photo "ww2_image_3.jpg"). The letters "HAYES" are barely legible in the photo.
> 
> ...



Gidday Hak
I will look at some references for the wheel but doubt I have anything that old

Hayes made brakes and that may be the dust cover from the back of a brake (N below). If there is a better shot showing more surrounding detail that *may *help confirm the part. Likewise part numbers would help - even if there is no reference to the number it could indicate time frame = eg pre or post say AT-6A brakes


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## MiTasol (Nov 2, 2020)

The Kawahara aircraft were probably salvaged in the next day or two and one or more may have even been flown out. Just guessing from _Details: Both crash landing and human *aircraft returned* _which is, as you say, a giggle translation.


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## Shinpachi (Nov 2, 2020)

2月19日

2/31 九七軽 不明 ランパン付近河原 帰途・煙霧、黄砂のため地点標定ができず 不時着大破・人員無事

2/31 九七軽 不明 ランパン付近河原 帰途・煙霧、黄砂のため地点標定ができず 不時着・人機とも帰還

February 19

2/31 (No idea what this means) / Type 97 light bomber(s) / (one or some) missing / (Also) on the river beach near Lampang on the way home, (as) unable to ID location by haze, yellow dust / (one or some) land crashed to be wrecked / No casualties.

2/31 (No idea what this means) / Type 97 light bomber(s) / (one or some) missing / (Also) on the river beach near Lampang on the way home, (as) unable to ID location by haze, yellow dust / (one or some) land crashed / Crew & plane came home.


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## MiTasol (Nov 2, 2020)

I cannot guarantee that the Vought Corsair V93S followed later VS aircraft but if so the part number should start with VS-

Likewise I would expect the inspection stamp to have VS



instead of N inside it. 

The N inspection stamp may be the Navy predecessor to the later AN military inspection stamp or it may also be a component manufacturers stamp. I know of multiple versions of the Air Corps inspection stamps but I do not know what the Navy ones looked like although I would expect NAV or maybe NAB for Naval Aircraft Bureau.

To me the N would more likely suggest a manufacturer, or component manufacturer, whose name started with N like Northrop but as far as I know all Northrop aircraft were all metal construction and the large amount of steel tubing suggests your fuselage frame was welded steel tube construction and therefore not Northrop.

The part number construction suggests North American model 05 with the part being 18005 which would be a flap if the standard NAA part number practices applied that early. I doubt there ever was a model 05 and therefore that is not worth wasting time on. Their first production aircraft were all NA-16 derivatives as far as I am aware.
The NAA basic stamp is



with many variations including



which is similar to your stamp and, along with the part number structure, is what made me suspect then eliminate a NAA product

An interesting conundrum for certain and I wish you luck.

Fortunately there are many people on this site and collectively we have accumulated vast knowledge so other members may well have the answers or provide you, or others, with the vital clue that solves the puzzle.


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## islandee (Nov 3, 2020)

MiTasol:

Thank you for your brainstorming. The photos & info I presented here (in my first question) are all second hand, more than 22 years old. Current staff at the source, Tango Squadron at Chiang Mai, know nothing about the subject; past / retired staff that can be found don't recall the discovery. Until we get up to the site (assuming that we can even find it from the vaguely worded description) --- and that will hopefully be this winter, I can't give you any more data.


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## islandee (Nov 3, 2020)

Shinpachi:

My apologies. It is my fault for putting you at a disadvantage. I'm asking about information written in Japanese and have not given its context. Here is the source page for your clarification:




(I would gather from other entries on the page that 2/31 is an organizational unit and refers to the 2nd Chutai of the 31st Sentai?).


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## Shinpachi (Nov 3, 2020)

islandee said:


> Shinpachi:
> 
> My apologies. It is my fault for putting you at a disadvantage. I'm asking about information written in Japanese and have not given its context. Here is the source page for your clarification:
> View attachment 600633
> ...



Can be read with the list like this -

Date / Unit / Aircraft / Flyer or pilot / Location of crashed or damaged / Opponent or cause / Remark (crashed when no remark)

Feb 19 / 2/31 / Type 97 light bomber / Unknown / Near the river beach of Lampang / Unable to ID location by haze, yellow dust on the way home / Emergency landing to be wrecked. No casualties

Feb 19 / 2/31 / Type 97 light bomber / Unknown / Near the river beach of Lampang / Unable to ID location by haze, yellow dust on the way home / Emergency landing. Crew & plane came home

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## MiTasol (Nov 3, 2020)

islandee said:


> Shinpachi:
> 
> My apologies. It is my fault for putting you at a disadvantage. I'm asking about information written in Japanese and have not given its context. Here is the source page for your clarification:
> View attachment 600633
> ...



A nice chart and clean presentation. I wonder why the aircraft serial and crew names were not recorded. As a guess, because it would have made the table too large or cluttered.

Islandee - does this book cover the 1942 raids on Darwin? If yes where do I get a copy of the book?


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## MiTasol (Nov 3, 2020)

islandee said:


> MiTasol:
> 
> Thank you for your brainstorming. The photos & info I presented here (in my first question) are all second hand, more than 22 years old. Current staff at the source, Tango Squadron at Chiang Mai, know nothing about the subject; past / retired staff that can be found don't recall the discovery. Until we get up to the site (assuming that we can even find it from the vaguely worded description) --- and that will hopefully be this winter, I can't give you any more data.



Sounds like a good mystery to chase down. Another 22 years of mother nature and humans will, unfortunately, not have improved the site and wreckage but a fresh pair of eyes can still often find good evidence despite these hassles.

Wish I could be there with you.


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## islandee (Nov 3, 2020)

Shinpachi: Thank you for the updated translation.


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## islandee (Nov 3, 2020)

MiTasol:

Darwin bombing: 19 Feb 1942. Alas, no: Umemoto is faithful to his title, _Burma Airwar_. By the same token, aircraft losses in Thailand are only listed when they in some way involve the IJAAF and Burma. Hence, for example, the IJAAF 1941 attack on Thailand from points east is not covered.


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## MiTasol (Nov 3, 2020)

Oh well, one can only hope. There are RAAF records of Oscars in Darwin raids as late as July 42 so I was interested in seeing if that was true or just miss-identification.


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## islandee (Nov 4, 2020)

MiTasol: I may have answered too quickly about Umemoto's coverage of Darwin. I'm continuing down the table at the end of his book (it's about 53 pages in the first volume, so I've got a long way to go) and I'm finding many instances listed of IJAAF and Brit losses / damage for the attacks on Colombo and Trincomalee in April 1942. That might suggest that Darwin may not show in the tables because there were no IJAAF losses on 19 Feb 1942 and no shootdowns of RAAF aircraft. No air combat. No dogfights. Would that be correct? 

I'm out of my element with regard to IJAAF attacks on northern Australia: but one way to test if this is why nothing shows for the 19 Feb 1942 attack --- Wikipedia indicates that there were numerous attacks on northern Australia. Did any later attacks get opposed by the RAAF --- with planes downed as a result? Or IJAAF planes downed by AA fire in later attacks? If so, pass me some dates and I'll check: those losses should appear in Umemoto's listing.

I've not yet tried to go much into the commentary that takes up most of the book. There may be some discussion there about the attack on Darwin.


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## Shinpachi (Nov 4, 2020)

MiTasol said:


> Oh well, one can only hope. There are RAAF records of Oscars in Darwin raids as late as July 42 so I was interested in seeing if that was true or just miss-identification.



The Japanese army aircraft, including Ki-43, did not join the attack on Darwin until June 20, 1943.
However, as IJAAF started preparation for the future attack on Darwin in April 1942, there might have been any trial approach to the airspace in 1942.


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## MiTasol (Nov 4, 2020)

Thank you sir. That helps considerably


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## MiTasol (Nov 4, 2020)

islandee said:


> MiTasol: I may have answered too quickly about Umemoto's coverage of Darwin. I'm continuing down the table at the end of his book (it's about 53 pages in the first volume, so I've got a long way to go) and I'm finding many instances listed of IJAAF and Brit losses / damage for the attacks on Colombo and Trincomalee in April 1942. That might suggest that Darwin may not show in the tables because there were no IJAAF losses on 19 Feb 1942 and no shootdowns of RAAF aircraft. No air combat. No dogfights. Would that be correct?
> 
> I'm out of my element with regard to IJAAF attacks on northern Australia: but one way to test if this is why nothing shows for the 19 Feb 1942 attack --- Wikipedia indicates that there were numerous attacks on northern Australia. Did any later attacks get opposed by the RAAF --- with planes downed as a result? Or IJAAF planes downed by AA fire in later attacks? If so, pass me some dates and I'll check: those losses should appear in Umemoto's listing.
> 
> I've not yet tried to go much into the commentary that takes up most of the book. There may be some discussion there about the attack on Darwin.



Hi Hak

There were a number of raids on Darwin over an extended period and they were opposed by the USAAF and RAAF. The RAAF had warning of the Feb 19 raid and the CO rejected the information which meant on that raid the IJN were unopposed.

The Darwin period I am interested in is for early July 1943 and the RAAF show at least one Spitfire shot down in that period by an Oscar. I am researching another aircraft wreck from around that date that officially was *not *shot down, officially *was *chasing an Oscar and it has at least one HMG or cannon hole in it through a solid steel component. The aircraft was never used as a ground target.

If you do come across something relevant in the Burma book I would appreciate a heads up.


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## fubar57 (Nov 4, 2020)

PM sent Mi.

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## wingnuts (Nov 5, 2020)

islandee said:


> I've been given a report describing aircraft wreckage sitting on a mountainside in Mae Hong Son Province, Thailand --- the northwesterly-most corner of the country. The site is not easily accessed, as in a 2-hour 4-wheel drive up a river bed followed by a 2-hour hike. And directions are not at all clear. Not the sort of trip to do in the current (very) rainy season with flooding, washouts, landslides, dengue fever, etc, and concerns about a coronapanic lockdown being reactivated.
> 
> From the limited information given about the wreck, I've checked a list of Thai military aircraft in Young, _Aerial Nationalism_ (Washington: Smithsonian, 1995), pp 261-262, and find the only American, 9-cylinder, 2-blade prop aircraft is a Vought Corsair V93S. The model was purchased in 1934 and saw action during WW2.
> 
> ...



There is a Vought V93 Corsair in the RTAF Museum at Don Muang airport.


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## islandee (Dec 9, 2020)

Aircraft crashes:

Thank you for identifying the crash site of Sgt Ono (on the 'Data Base: Japanese Aircraft Engines' thread). There is a second IJAAF crash site up on a mountain top near that of Ono's crash site which is down on the river plain. Very little information is currently available about it as yet.

Access to the site required Ben Svasti to leave a local highway for a three hour drive in 4WD low, followed by a two hour seemingly "vertical" hike. Eye witness information --- second hand now from a second generation --- recounted a plane exploding midair in a cloud of white smoke. Debris seemed scattered round a wide area. There were no survivors. At first villagers dared not approach the site for fear of poison and disease, and superstition no doubt. Eventually they overcame their reluctance and found a debris field of body parts, engine parts, and aluminum framework.

The site is now largely overgrown. While cultivating bananas in the area, locals have uncovered hip bones. In addition, they retrieved some engine parts which point to a radial aircraft engine (one or more) and mechanical parts of a more tenuous nature --- see photos by Svasti:


​
The extent of the crash site as described by Svasti seems to imply a large aircraft, such as a Ki-21. In that vein, there was a suggestion that _Senshi Sosho_ had described the loss of a 12th Sentai Ki-21 in the Thai mountains on 25 Dec 1941. But that is not borne out by the Google translation of _Senshi Sosho_ Vol 34 p 344 (1970) which mentions three losses (however, to which unit was not clear, at least as translated by Google).

Ford in _Flying Tigers_ on p 134 (1991), in describing 25 Dec 1941 events, mentions a pilot from the 77th Sentai as crash-landng in Thailand --- but that was a Ki 27 (that already identified by Shinpachi as piloted by Sgt Ono). Immediately thereafter in Ford's text, perhaps confusing for a reader, is mention of a badly damaged 12th Sentai Sally crashing in a bamboo forest --- no location given, but with the crew all surviving.

Shores, et al, in _Bloody Shambles_, Vol 1, p 250 (1992) tells of the "12th Sentai . . . losing three Ki 21s over the target area, while a fourth was badly hit and later force-landed --- no location given.

Umemoto in _Burma Air War_ Vol 1, pp 41, 450 (2002) confirms that three 12th Sentai Ki-21s had been shot down over Rangoon, and added that a fourth, badly damaged crash landed in a bamboo forest in northern Malaya, with crew all surviving.

The course between Don Muang (or Phnom Penh, for that matter (see further below)) and Rangoon does not go near the crash site --- unless, as in the case of Sgt Ono, the pilot changed course to get to Japan-friendly Thailand before an anticipated crash (see mark ups on attached map from Kameta Junichi and Jeffrey Stickley:
​
Secondary sources don't provide much guidance: _Senshi Sosho_, Shores et al, Umemoto make no mention of a candidate.

Ford mentions a possible incident in two publications, but those are unfortunately ambiguous / contradictory:


In _Flying Tigers_ (1991), p 120: . . . the 60th Sentai . . . twenty-seven Sallys dropped their bombs on the city and headed back to Thailand with occasional interference from Allied fighters. A crewman was shot through the forehead, and one plane crashed on the way home, probably from battle damage; the fate of its crew isn't known.
and in _Rising Sun Over Burma_ (2014), p: Kindle: . . . the 60th Sentai under Colonel Ogawa . . . . All returned to Phnom Penh, but evidently one bomber was destroyed by a crash landing, its pilot unknown, as is the fate of the crew.

(_Senshi Sosho_, Shores, et al, and Umemoto do not mention such an incident.)

There are other possibilities. Did all the aircraft listed as lost in the Rangoon raids crash in the Rangoon area?

12th Sentai Ki-21s on 25 Dec 1941
Backtracking, the 62th and 98th Sentai Ki-21s on 23 Dec 1941
Moving ahead in time, the 14th Sentai Ki-21s on 24 Jan 1942
Setting aside the assumption of a Ki-21, the 31st Sentai Ki-30 on 23 Jan 1942
Might the bodies at this crash site have been already dead before the plane crashed; ie, might the bodies be those in an aircraft from which survivors were known to have parachuted, such as the 3/98 Ki-21 piloted by Nogami on 23 Dec 1941? That is, the plane flew on, pilot-less, 250 km easterly to finally crash?
Any thoughts? 

I thank you.

Hak Hakanson
Chiang Mai

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## islandee (Dec 9, 2020)

wingnuts said:


> There is a Vought V93 Corsair in the RTAF Museum at Don Muang airport.



wingnuts:

Thank you: I'm in email discussion about it with personnel down there.

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## islandee (Dec 9, 2020)

MiTasol said:


> Hi Hak
> 
> There were a number of raids on Darwin over an extended period and they were opposed by the USAAF and RAAF. The RAAF had warning of the Feb 19 raid and the CO rejected the information which meant on that raid the IJN were unopposed.
> 
> ...



MiTasol:

Entries in Umemoto's log 19 Jun - 13 Aug 1943: I give more translated detail for the dates just in July; but I don't think there is anything about a Spitfire or Darwin / Australia in that period (per Google translate):

1943​19 Jun: northern Burma​28 Jun: northern Burma​29 Jun: "between Saswa and Jigon" [Saswad, India ? and ?]​30 Jun: Chabua (on India Air Transport Route)​30 Jun: Yunnan​
09 Jul: 11Sqn G.F.リーガン曹長 ブレニム トンガップ 不明 地上掃射中に炎上墜落•3名戦死​Unit: 11Sqn; Master Sgt G.F. Regan; flying a Blenheim; downed at Toungup, Burma; Attacker / cause: unknown or none; Details: Crashed in flames during ground sweep • 3 killed in action​​18 Jul: 375BS B-24「オールド•バルディ」 不明 チャブア飛行場 着陸事故 4名死亡​Unit: 375BS; flying a B-24 nicknamed "Old Baldy"; pilot: unrecorded; at Chabua Airfield, India; Attacker / cause: Landing accident; Details: 4 deaths​​29 Jul: 215Sqn ウェリントン 不明 アラカン沿岸 不明 昼間進攻中に行方不明​Unit: 215Sqn; flying a Wellington; pilot: unrecorded; along Arakan Coast; Attacker / cause: unknown; Details: Missing during daytime invasion​
09 Aug: Kalemyo, Burma​12 Aug: Akyab, Burma​13 Aug: off Cape Diamond ?​
Here's the page in his volume 1 that carries the listing for those dates: 

​


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## MiTasol (Dec 9, 2020)

Many thanks


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## Shinpachi (Dec 10, 2020)

To measure the bore/stroke of the engine debris will be the first step to ID the engine and the airframe for it.


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## OldGeezer (Dec 11, 2020)

The original photo #2 is definitely a Hayes part. They were marked "HAYES INDUSTRIES INC" on the top line, and I can see "HAYES" clearly and barely make out what looks like the "I" and "D" in the 2nd word. Then the lower line would normally be marked "JACKSON MICHIGAN USA" and by tweaking the image I'm sure I can see "JACKSO" there. So it all fits.

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## islandee (Dec 13, 2020)

Old Geezer: thank you. MiTasol suggested that the item may be a dust cover for a wheel brake. Any thoughts on that?


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## OldGeezer (Dec 13, 2020)

islandee said:


> Old Geezer: thank you. MiTasol suggested that the item may be a dust cover for a wheel brake. Any thoughts on that?



That seems likely, or lettering cast into the drum itself.


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## islandee (Dec 13, 2020)

Another crash site found: we have been able to confirm the location where the P-38 of a Lt James Kintz, USAAF, crashed on 27 May 1945. Our source was the son of the landowner where the crash had occurred. Only about seven km from Mae Rim (which in turn is about 17 km from Chiang Mai --- both distances as the crow flies). 

Kintz parachuted to ground, was taken into custody by Thai officials, and moved to a POW camp near Bangkok for the duration of the war. The wreckage was long ago removed and the site has been totally resculpted by subsequent development.

Records: we have: a USAAF MCR which describes the loss in general terms, and an entry in a diary kept by a local Thai telling of the crash and the name of a nearby village. And there are US newspaper articles right after war's end recounting how well he and fellow POWs were treated. I've mentioned the discovery to a Thai indexing RTAF records: he will eventually find the RTAF message about the crash. *To close the loop, I'm wondering if anyone is aware of an IJA record of the crash?* Umemoto does not list the event: he covers some, but hardly all, IJAAF aircraft incidents in Thailand; USAAF incidents in Thailand, he lists only when they can be specifically related to IJAAF interactions (and I've not found that he covers anything involving the RTAF --- its participation in the Burma Air War did include losses in the Shan State directly to the north of Thailand).

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## islandee (Dec 14, 2020)

Yet another crash site in northern Thailand: at some point in the near future, we are hoping to locate the wreckage of a P-40 long ago reported to be in the mountains of northern Thailand and identify it. USAAF / AVG aircraft seem to be identifiable most readily by engine number and / or prop number. Can someone give guidance as to where on those items --- if we find the wreckage --- we should look for those numbers?


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## MiTasol (Dec 14, 2020)

The engine number is on a plate on the left side of the engine half way between the engine mount pads. Look for the AAF number as USAAF records use that. It will be in the format 41-12345 for a 41 built engine. Problem is engines moved from aircraft to aircraft so, unless the aircraft never had an engine change, do not always directly relate to the aircraft they were fitted to at the factory. I have some engine/airframe serials if you do find an engine serial tho. Nothing else on the engine has the engines AAF serial.




Airframe plates are scattered through the aircraft on line replaceable items and carry the serial *of the first aircraft they were fitted to.* 

As such unless you find multiple plates with the same serial, they can lead to a mistaken identity. The cockpit plate on the left canopy rail is alloy and probably corroded. The plates on the ailerons are steel and often badly rusted. The plates on the main and tail gear oleos and the numbers stamped into the retract rams are good. Best is the radio call plate on the instrument panel or right hand canopy rail depending on model.

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## MiTasol (Dec 14, 2020)

USAAF record of aircraft and engine serials showing first engine fitted to the aircraft. I have never seen replacement engine numbers recorded and the four columns are to allow for B-17 etc aircraft to use the same form. You will note 5359 has a real early engine fitted which suggests it was overhauled before installation.


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## islandee (Dec 15, 2020)

MiTasol said:


> The engine number is on a plate on the left side of the engine . . . .



Thank you. With that, we should be able to find some numbers. Hopefully I'll be back to you with them in three months or so.


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## islandee (Jan 19, 2021)

Yet another aircraft crash site has been found in northern Thailand. A 05 June 1943 entry in a local diary kept in Chiang Mai, Thailand, during WW2, recorded a Japanese plane crashing near Wat Phothi Mongkhon, southwest southeast of Chiang Mai town.

Two interviews 'on the ground' in the Chiang Mai area were conducted Sunday, 17 Jan 2021.

First, an interview with an 87-year-old Thai corrected the location of the crash site to about 1 km west of the diary location, near a different wat, Wat Don Chan.

Following that, an 88-year-old Thai in a different subdistrict confirmed the location near Wat Don Chan and provided more details. He had heard a loud noise on a clear day around 1 pm. Aged 12 at the time, he had followed adults to the crash site in rice paddies in front of the wat. People there told him that the wreckage was that of a Japanese twin-engined aircraft which had come down after running out of fuel. He saw that it had hit an irrigation system "water gate" and been demolished in the collision; there had been no fire. He watched as many Japanese had come and taken away three injured people. He said Japanese had removed all the wreckage within a week.

Approximate location of crash site: near the front entrance of the Wat Don Chan: N18°45.615 E99°01.960
2 หมู่ที่ 4 Tha Sala Sub-district, Mueang Chiang Mai District, Chiang Mai 50000, Thailand

I believe that Umemoto, Shores, and Ford are all silent about the event. *Is anyone aware of this accident having been recorded elsewhere, hopefully with additional details? *

I attach a map showing the location of the crash site plus that of the Chiang Mai airstrip, at which, presumably, the aircraft was intending to land. Prevailing winds are from the north, so likely the pilot was heading west aiming for the south end of the runway. An extension east of the bearing between the airfield and the crash site does not connect with any other known airstrip.

I thank you.

Hak Hakanson
Chiang Mai


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## Shinpachi (Jan 20, 2021)

The crashed aircraft would be a Ki-48 of the 34th sentai (fighters unit) as no other sentais in Chiang Mai on June 5, 1943.

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## islandee (Jan 25, 2021)

Shinpachi said:


> The crashed aircraft would be a Ki-48 of the 34th sentai (fighters unit) as no other sentais in Chiang Mai on June 5, 1943.



Thank you. From Shores 3:426, I see that the 34th Sentai was composed of Ki-48s and that sentai was in the Burma Theater from Oct 1942 to Feb 1944. The identity of Ki-48s however seems to be astray: they were classified as "Type 99 Light Bomber" rather than "fighters" per Wikipedia, Ford, etc. Does that agree with your records?

I've not found any reference to a crash on that date in what RTAF pubs I've got (this lack of coverage is standard); the museum at Don Muang is working to organize its files of original records from that period and may find a report.


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## Shinpachi (Jan 25, 2021)

There are nuance differences between Japanese and English.
Sentai (戦隊) is translated as Fighters Unit but "戦"(sen)" itself means Fighting.
There were many army sentais which were organized by bombers or attackers with no fighters.

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## islandee (Jan 31, 2021)

Shinpachi said:


> There are nuance differences between Japanese and English.
> Sentai (戦隊) is translated as Fighters Unit but "戦"(sen)" itself means Fighting.
> There were many army sentais which were organized by bombers or attackers with no fighters.


Okay. Thank you: I get the idea.

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## islandee (Jun 29, 2021)

islandee said:


> Yet another crash site in northern Thailand: at some point in the near future, we are hoping to locate the wreckage of a P-40 long ago reported to be in the mountains of northern Thailand and identify it. . . .


I withdraw that comment: after several trips over the mountains to the Mae Hong Son area, we've determined that two separate reports of P-40 yet-to-be-discovered crash sites from different sources actually describe Flying Tiger McGarry's P-40 crash site near Mok Cham Pae, but from widely separated towns. (His P-40 was hit during a 1942 attack on Chiang Mai Airport, then under the control of the IJAAF; he eventually had to bail out to become a POW. The crash site was discovered in 1991; shortly thereafter much of the wreckage was taken to Chiang Mai where it is now on display in a Tango hangar at the airport. That it took almost 50 years for hunters to come across the crash site indicates its remoteness.)

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## MiTasol (Jun 29, 2021)

Any photos of it on display? 
Or is it in storage

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## islandee (Jul 8, 2021)

MiTasol said:


> Any photos of it on display?Or is it in storage





MiTasol said:


> See ThaiAviation.com: <Tango Squadron Museum Chiang Mai> and Wanderling photos at <TANGO SQUADRON AIR MUSEUM, CHIANG MAI>
> ge

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## islandee (Jun 14, 2022)

Continuing with the theme, Old Thailand Aircrashes:

Japanese Railway Construction Division 2 was responsible for construction of the Thai-Burma Railway. Its first commander was Major General Shimoda Nobuo, 下田宣力. He and nine others were killed when the aircraft in which they were conducting an aerial inspection of the work crashed on the Thai side of the Thai-Burmese border on 26 Jan 1943.

The crash site was located after more than three weeks search near Mount Mayanthong [summit N14°50 E98°15] and then "lost to time", to be rediscovered about 40 years later. The wreckage was then brought out to be eventually exhibited at the Thailand Railway Hall of Fame, from perhaps approximately 1990 to 2012. The exhibit was written up on one of the 2bangkok forums in 1999, and can still be viewed in the site's archive at [note: link corrected] _What Kind of Plane Is This?_. (Item is on page 43). The aircraft was identified as a Ki-21, by a member of the _Rao Lack Rotphai_, an organization of railway enthusiasts in Japan.

As noted in the "afterwords" of the article, the museum closed in 2012 and the display is now unaccountably lost.

Some questions.

1: does anyone know where the display (if it still exists) might now be / might be stored / might be kept?

2: The aircraft wreckage had been identified for the museum as that of a Ki-21 by a Japanese of uncertain expertise. However, two other Japanese, also with uncertain expertise, subsequently viewed the exhibit and insisted that it was a Ki-48. It is not clear how that number of people could be accommodated on a Ki-48 and be able to view and to evaluate work on the ground. The Japanese Embassy in Bangkok is said to have investigated the crash site around 1980 (Micool Brooke, _Captive of the River Kwae_ (Merman Books, Bangkok, 1995); p.83). Umemoto does not list the crash (梅本弘,ビルマ航空戦 (東京:大日本印刷株, 2002)). Hence this question: might the aircraft model designation be recorded _and available_ in Japanese documentation somewhere, hopefully along with additional details?

3: Is anyone familiar with the Japanese organization, _Rao Lack Rotphai_? And, if so, can contact information be provided? Perhaps some members know where the display might be stored at present.

More questions may arise as we investigate further.

I thank you.

Hak Hakanson
Chiang Mai

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## OldGeezer (Jun 14, 2022)

islandee said:


> Continuing with the theme, Old Thailand Aircrashes:
> 
> Japanese Railway Construction Division 2 was responsible for construction of the Thai-Burma Railway. Its first commander was Major General Shimoda Nobuo, 下田宣力. He and nine others were killed when the aircraft in which they were conducting an aerial inspection of the work crashed on the Thai side of the Thai-Burmese border on 26 Jan 1943.
> 
> ...


I get the dreaded "404" error when I try to follow the link for "What Kind of Plane Is This?"...

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## islandee (Jun 14, 2022)

Apologies: I have edited / corrected the link in my #45 above.


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## Shinpachi (Jun 14, 2022)

Ki-57 as transport version of Ki-21 could carry them.

Model: Crew+Passenger
Ki-48: 4+0
Ki-21: 7+0
Ki-57: 4+11

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## islandee (Jun 14, 2022)

Thank you, Shinpachi.

Additional question: the practice of bringing back only the small finger of a dead person from an area difficult to access; for example, a dead soldier in a remote area --- is that a custom from ancient times or more recently evolved? Aketo Nakamura's memoir covers the crash of Shimoda: they had been close friends and Nakamura recorded that no remains were returned from the site for proper ceremony. Conversely, a Royal Thai Army log entry claimed the opposite; ie, that remains had been returned to Kanchanaburi and properly dealt with.


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## Shinpachi (Jun 14, 2022)

islandee said:


> the practice of bringing back only the small finger of a dead person from an area difficult to access; for example, a dead soldier in a remote area --- is that a custom from ancient times or more recently evolved?


Not necessarily custom but looks a better dicision for his family than finding a piece of pebble in the urn, which was popular in the Pacific War.

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## islandee (Jul 13, 2022)

The following scenario seems impossible (and possibly a source of humor), but, just for the record, is it possible? In World War II, stricken IJAAF aircraft coming from Burma were supported on wingtips of accompanying aircraft, apparently assisting them in getting away from conflict in Burma to friendly Thailand, then an ally.

The scenario is offered by eye-witnesses for two different crash sites in very mountainous, isolated sections of western Thailand separated by about 200 km --- Mae Tuen and Mae La Luang. The crashes occurred about two years apart and involved very different aircraft: a Ki-27 and a Ki-45. I've written up the Mae Tuen crash at Details of Aircraft Losses by Date: 25 Dec 1941, and I omitted the detail in the scenario above because it seemed absurd, beyond the abilities of pilots and capabilities of aircraft. But I've just now encountered the same scenario in Mae La Luang, 200 km north in a different province, under otherwise different circumstances, and occurring in June-July 1943. Both witnesses seemed coherent and quite certain of the particular detail. The scene was even sketched up on a Japanese-language webpage: メーラルアン村に不時着した日本軍機１ (source for the webpage is given to a Thai source which I believe was not published). I've not found this second event listed by Umemoto, but it may have occurred on a very different date and escaped my notice. Any thoughts?

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## Shinpachi (Jul 13, 2022)

I have ever heard a similar story. So it would be possible because pilots tried to help/rescue friends even costing their own lives.


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## islandee (Jul 13, 2022)

Thank you, Shinpachi. Sobering. The tactic, if accurately described, worked. As at Omkoi, skill, courage, dedication, in the extreme, were rewarded at Mae La Luang: the crew of two suffered only minor injuries.

I will include the detail, with your comment, on the webpages for both events. With apologies, for clarity, could I restate your response as:
I have heard a similar story. It is possible because pilots tried to help/rescue friends even at the risk of their own lives.

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## Shinpachi (Jul 14, 2022)

islandee said:


> Thank you, Shinpachi. Sobering. The tactic, if accurately described, worked. As at Omkoi, skill, courage, dedication, in the extreme, were rewarded at Mae La Luang: the crew of two suffered only minor injuries.
> 
> I will include the detail, with your comment, on the webpages for both events. With apologies, for clarity, could I restate your response as:
> I have heard a similar story. It is possible because pilots tried to help/rescue friends even at the risk of their own lives.


Yes, it will be my honour.
Thank you very much.


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## islandee (Jul 23, 2022)

Continuing with the subject of a crash of a Ki-45 at Mae La Luang, Thailand: I believe that I've found a reference to the event in Umemoto (_梅本弘,_ビルマ_航空戦・上_).

Shores in his _Air War for Burma_ states that the only Ki-45 exposure in Burma was with Sentai 21. Equipped with Ki-45kai fighters, it moved from Sumatra to Mingaladon (Rangoon) in March 1943, and left in January 1944 [p 425].

Umemoto lists four Sentai 21 losses, all during that period. Just one of those four did not involve a death, but did involve a riverbank. These details match interview contents summarized on a Japanese language website, メーラルアン村に不時着した日本軍機１ (which I mentioned before).

I am relying on OCRing Umemoto's Japanese text and plugging it into Google Translate and I would like to get a confirmation that what I have is 'in the ballpark'.

Umemoto's narrative is on p 317 of his volume 1: I've attached a copy of that page.

It seems to start on the evening of 12 Apr 1943, with the 21st Sentai providing cover for ships coming into Rangoon harbor. The date isn't so significant because dates in local versions vary from March to July 1943; but the time of day is relevant in that students in Mae La Luang witnessed the Ki-45 crash landing along a river on an afternoon, which would be inconsistent with the flight beginning in the evening.
At some point after covering the harbor, 21st Sentai aircraft attacked B-24s. A B-24 gunner hit a Ki-45 in the left engine and the plane went down, crash landing on a riverbank. There is no listing of a B-24 attack anywhere in Burma on 12-13 Apr 1943 in the USAAF Chrono; Umemoto may mention the lack of information about the action of RAF 159 Squadron on that date. 
The USAAF Chrono does record that B-25s attacked Magwe on 12 Apr, and Myitnge and Monywa on 13 Apr. 
Shores mentions action on 13 Apr by RAF 60 Squadron Blenheim bombers out of Dohazari, India, attacking Adwnbyhin (which is not located).

The name, Lt Yasushi Ushijima, is mentioned; but in this text, it is not clear if he was the commander of the 2nd Company of the 21st Sentai, or the pilot of the Ki-45 which was hit, or perhaps both. On a separate summary page, he is listed as the pilot.
Shores indicates that the 21st Sentai had been relocated to Mingaladon (Rangoon). Mae La Luang at 270 km northeast of Rangoon is well within the range of a patrolling Ki-45. In the spring of 1943, I believe that the Japanese viewed Burma as firmly in their control. So it seems odd that the crippled plane would have been helped over the border into Thailand rather than back towards Rangoon, or say, at least towards an airstrip near Mae La Luang, but in Burma, such as at Toungoo.
Thoughts?


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## Shinpachi (Jul 23, 2022)

The article in the link says it was an incident in the daytime during June/July, 1943.
Umemoto writes Lt.Ushijima flew Ki-45-ko on April 12 and the event was taken place in the darkness.

I recommend you to contact with Umemoto directly as his true name is Hiroshi Ichimura at age 64. 
Here is his twitter -

市村弘(梅本弘 または ローガン梅本)


https://twitter.com/kerpanen?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor


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## islandee (Jul 24, 2022)

Thank you, Shinpachi. I'll give it a try.


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## Shinpachi (Jul 24, 2022)

Umemoto serves as editor of Model Graphix（モデルグラフィックス）as Hiroshi Ichimura since 1984. 
Publisher is Dai Nihon Kaiga (大日本絵画).


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## islandee (Jul 25, 2022)

Noted. Thank you.


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## islandee (Aug 9, 2022)

Umemoto lists these two IJAAF aircraft models in events involving Sentai 21: ニ式複戦甲型 and ニ式複戦.. Sentai 21 was flying Ki-45s. What is the difference between these two?


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## Shinpachi (Aug 9, 2022)

Can be read the Ki-45-ko (with short nose) and others (with long nose) which means every model.

As far as I read the story introduced in メーラルアン村に不時着した日本軍機１ , planes were single-engined fighters. If they were from 21st sentai, it would be natural to think that they were Ki-27s or Ki-43s IMO.

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## Shinpachi (Aug 9, 2022)

My first impression was this Ki-51 but exact "sentai (squadron)" was unknown.
I have confirmed that the 71st independent flight company (独立飛行第七十一中隊) stayed in Burma from February to December in 1943 as a branch company of the 83rd sentai. There was this model too.






Source: 九九式襲撃機 - Wikipedia

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## islandee (Aug 12, 2022)

You say that メーラルアン村に不時着した日本軍機１ seems to assume that a single engine aircraft was involved. The sketch on that webpage reinforces your point.
I had my Thai translator check Cherdchay's interview in Thai in 2008 for mention of number of engines --- there was none.
And she called our current 83-year-old witness to ask about the number of engines --- he said it had been too long ago and did not recall.

I believe that nouns in both Thai and Japanese languages, standing alone, do not give information as to number, ie, single or plural (eg, in English, engine vs engine_s_). Hence, since there is no specific mention of number of engines, it could be logical to assume that, if the plane that crash landed at Mae La Luang had two-engines, which would have been "out of the ordinary", that detail would have been worthy of mention; but it wasn't, so, in fact, the aircraft was single engined.

21st Sentai: Wikipedia *Kawasaki Ki-45*, lists 13 IJAAF "operators", and one of them is No. 21 Hikō Sentai IJAAF; none of the other units with Ki-45s were in the Burma Theatre (except, curiously the 71st Dokuritsu). And, as you opined, Wikipedia also lists the 21st Sentai as having *Nakajima Ki-27*s. But Wikipedia does not list units using *Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa*s.

Okay, I see that Shores (vol 3, p427) had the 71st Independent Flying Chutai using Ki-51s; and that chutai was absorbed by the 83rd Sentai in late 1943.
Umemoto lists no IJAAF loss in 1943 for unit number 71 or 83. I can't check for a Ki-51 casualty because he doesn't identify Japanese aircraft using "Ki" numbers.

There is one serious obstacle to speculating that it was not Ushijima who crash landed in Mae La Luang: Umemoto offers two key details that, in combination, point very strongly towards Ushijima and his Ki-45: 

no loss of life
a riverbank
Umemoto's books came out in 2002; Cherdchay's interviews were conducted several years later, in 2008 --- and after, and were eventually translated into Japanese and put on the Internet. It's possible that the Japanese translator or the webmaster was familiar with Umemoto's listings, checked for an event that did not involve death but did involve a river bank, an unusual detail, decided that Ushijima's crash fit those details, and added a photo of a Ki-45 to the Internet article. Whether the guess was right or wrong, lucky or misleading, is not clear.

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## Shinpachi (Aug 12, 2022)

10th to 11th lines in the page tells -

「地面がでこぼこだった為に機体はごろんごろんと転がった。何回か転がった後に小川の手前で止まった。」

"Because the ground was uneven, the aircraft rolled around. After rolling a few times, it stopped just before the stream."

As the twin-engined ki-45 was not so small and weak as to roll on the ground, I thought it would be a single engined plane naturally.

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## islandee (Aug 17, 2022)

Mae La Luang crash landing: no hard evidence is available just now, not even a photo; however, a round aluminum disk, salvaged from the wreckage, had been used for years to ring the hour at the local police station. The Thai coordinator (now deceased) for the Thai-Japanese Memorial Hall in Khun Yuam eventually collected the disk to exhibit at the Hall. It was about 30cm in diameter, with holes drilled round its perimeter. The coordinator had asked someone supposedly knowledgeable about IJAAF aircraft what it was. The answer: it was the firewall from the fuselage of the aircraft. 

While the disk went to the Hall to be exhibited, it, along with many other items, is in storage pending enlargement of the Hall to handle additional exhibits. The officer who had been assigned in his early years at the police station to ring the hour, drew a picture of the disk, which I attach. Does it in any way look familiar to you?

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## Shinpachi (Aug 17, 2022)

islandee said:


> Mae La Luang crash landing: no hard evidence is available just now, not even a photo; however, a round aluminum disk, salvaged from the wreckage, had been used for years to ring the hour at the local police station. The Thai coordinator (now deceased) for the Thai-Japanese Memorial Hall in Khun Yuam eventually collected the disk to exhibit at the Hall. It was about 30cm in diameter, with holes drilled round its perimeter. The coordinator had asked someone supposedly knowledgeable about IJAAF aircraft what it was. The answer: it was the firewall from the fuselage of the aircraft.
> 
> While the disk went to the Hall to be exhibited, it, along with many other items, is in storage pending enlargement of the Hall to handle additional exhibits. The officer who had been assigned in his early years at the police station to ring the hour, drew a picture of the disk, which I attach. Does it in any way look familiar to you?


The about 30cm in diameter looks too small as the firewall even for a single-engined plane.
I will try to check.


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## Shinpachi (Aug 17, 2022)

Firewall
Diameter is commonly about 1 meter

Ki-45





Ki-51






Wheel cap
Diameter less than 30cm

Ki-45





Ki-51





Gun magazines

Ki-45





Ki-51





Source: Mechanic of World Aircraft vol. 6

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## Shinpachi (Aug 18, 2022)

Measuring the pic, drum diameter is about 260mm.





Source: https://i-com.cdn.gaijin.net/monthl...pe89.PNG.315d0823d9c9cdb52221945ac2aebcc8.PNG





Source: Type 89 TE-4 Flexable Japanese machine gun replica

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## islandee (Sep 6, 2022)

One more detail gleaned by phone from the former gong ringer: the aluminum disk was about a centimeter in thickness.

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## Shinpachi (Sep 6, 2022)

No more idea without checking the actual disk.

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## Shinpachi (Sep 6, 2022)

This may be a good chance to introduce the Ki-51.
As seen in this footage, the Ki-51 Sonia was, with a powerful engine for a relatively smaller airframe, operated as a scout plane as well as a dive bomber in the group of 3 to support what the ordinary bombers and fighters could not do. This was regarded as an almighty plane in IJA.

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## SaparotRob (Sep 6, 2022)

I can just imagine the guys watching and studying that for every minor detail. I caught myself trying to figure out the colors and where to put scuff marks on a model myself.

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## islandee (Sep 11, 2022)

The Ki-51. (Caution: I'm relying on Google translations, so some (or all) of what follows from Japanese sources, Umemoto and Wikipedia, may be wrong.)

I correct my comment on my message #63 that Umemoto does not list any event involving a unit with number "71": He does list one event for an IJAAF unit with "71" and that is on 17 Apr 1943: 独飛71 with a 九八直協 shot down at Lashiio [Umemoto 1:466]. But that doesn't seem to fit the event at Mae La Luang.

Umemoto doesn't use Ki numbers to identify IJAAF aircraft. In looking thru the Japanese language Wikipedia, I believe that Umemoto should have designated the Ki-51 as 九九式軍偵察機, 九九襲, and/or 九九襲撃. I don't find those designations anywhere in Umemoto's lists; but he does list two events involving "九九軍偵" --- Ki-51s? --- on 23 Apr 1944 and ties them to 独飛89; but they were both destroyed on the ground at Nawnghkia [Umemoto 2:505]. Shores lists two similar events the day before at that location, but involving Ki-43s [Shores 3:208-209]. If "九九軍偵" are Ki-51s, that seems to be the extent of Ki-51 losses in the Burma Theatre.

Type 九九 aircraft show up in quantity as 九九双軽I型. and 九九双軽II型 assigned to Sentai 8. But these would be Ki-48s, not Ki-51s?

On the Internet, is there somewhere a cross listing of Ki numbers for the aircraft designations that Umemoto uses, such as 一式戦II型, ニ式戦型, 九七戦, 九七大艇, 九八直協, etc?

I thank you.


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## Shinpachi (Sep 11, 2022)

Umemoto seems to use abbreviation quite often like -

独飛71 for 独立飛行第71中隊 (the 71st independent flight company)
九八直協 for 九八式直接協同偵察機 (Ki-36)
九九軍偵 for 九九式軍偵察機 (Ki-51)
九九襲 for 九九式襲撃機 (Ki-51)

独飛89 for 独立飛行第89中隊 (the 89th independent flight company)

九九双軽I型 or 九九双軽II型 for 九九式双発軽爆撃機 I型 or II型 (Ki-48-I or Ki-48-II)

一式戦II型 for 一式戦闘機II型 (Ki-43-II)
ニ式戦型(?) for 二式戦闘機I型 or II型 (Ki-44-I or II)
九七戦 for 九七式戦闘機 (Ki-27)
九七大艇 for 九七式飛行艇 (H6K)

Here is a full list for the Ki-numbers





日本製航空機の一覧 - Wikipedia







ja.wikipedia.org






Attached diagram shows two types of magazine drum for Ki-36 for reference

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## islandee (Sep 12, 2022)

Shinpachi, thank you for the comments (and your patience), and for the Wikipedia article cross-linking Ki-numbers with abbreviated descriptions. And thanks for the additional illustrations of ammunition magazine drums: but, as you've mentioned before, not much can be done definitively on identification of the aluminum disk until we have it in hand. And that may not happen in the near future.

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## islandee (Sep 14, 2022)

Correction to my #73:

The 独飛71 event should be dated 17 Apr 1942, not 1943; and the aircraft involved was a 九八直協, not with a different third character.


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## Shinpachi (Sep 14, 2022)

islandee said:


> Correction to my #73:
> 
> The 独飛71 event should be dated 17 Apr 1942, not 1943; and the aircraft involved was a 九八直協, not with a different third character.


Here is a brief history of the 71st Independent Flight Company.
Source: 陸軍航空部隊略歴 (Army Air Corps History) JACAR


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## islandee (Sep 21, 2022)

Clarification. Umemoto's abbreviations of aircraft types seem to be occasionally ambiguous. With my apologies, can you double check this list cross-referencing his abbreviations to Ki-numbers that I've compiled. I attach list as table. Just now I'm particularly interested in Ki-36 and Ki-51. 

I thank you.


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## Shinpachi (Sep 21, 2022)

islandee said:


> Clarification. Umemoto's abbreviations of aircraft types seem to be occasionally ambiguous. With my apologies, can you double check this list cross-referencing his abbreviations to Ki-numbers that I've compiled. I attach list as table. Just now I'm particularly interested in Ki-36 and Ki-51.
> 
> I thank you.


 Almost perfect. I have confirmed the list like this.

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## islandee (Sep 22, 2022)

Okay, I appreciate your guidance. FYI:

I find Umemoto listing two events for the 独飛71. Both fit in the Feb - Nov 1942 Burma window:

the first was downed in Lashio:
Date: 4月17日 [1942]​Unit: 独飛71​Aircraft down: 九八直協​Personnel: 山岡敏夫少尉​Location: ラシオ​Shooter: AVG.P-40E​Details: 家田中尉•重傷​
The second was downed around Mangshi, Yunnan:
Date: 9月22日 [1942]​Unit: 独飛71​Aircraft down: 九八直協​Personnel: 久野辰雄中尉​Location: 芒市で対地協力中​Shooter: P-40​Details: 余縄准正中尉同乗•両名戦死​
Neither of these events can apply to the event at Mae La Luang.

Umemoto identifies both aircraft as 九八直協, ie, Ki-36s. 

Umemoto and Shores differ on the aircraft used by 独飛71. While Umemoto lists 九八直協, ie, Ki-36s, Shores states Ki-51s (Shores 3:427)

I find Umemoto listing only two events involving Ki-51s:

The first involved a takeoff accident at Lashio:
Date: [1942 04 29]​Unit: 27​Aircraft down: 九九軍偵​Personnel: 不雙​Location: ラシオ飛行場​Shooter: 離陸事故•衝突(百式司偵）​Details: 爆発炎上•人員の損害不明​
The second involved a landing accident at Naunkio:
Date: [1944 04 23]​Unit: 独飛89​Aircraft down: 九九軍偵​Personnel: 久住国男曹長​Location: ナウンキオ飛行場​Shooter: 着陸中にP-51の統擎で炎上​Details: 久住曹長負傷•深山喜年中尉戦傷死​
Neither of these events can be applicable to Mae La Luang.

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## Shinpachi (Sep 26, 2022)

For example, IJA aircraft lost in the battle of Burma for a year from December 7, 1942 to December 8, 1943 are reported 72.
Not two or three.






Source: Domei Monthly Report Vol.7/No.12 issued in December, 1943
(Library: Japan Press Research Institute)
新聞通信調査会


新聞通信調査会デジタルアーカイブ

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## islandee (Oct 7, 2022)

Thank you for the link to the Domei Reports. Interesting.

Apparently my last post was misleading for which I apologize.

Working backwards from your comment, "not two or three": in my #80, I identified four IJAAF casualties --- two Ki-36s (Umemoto identified them as Ki-51s) from 独飛71 and two Ki-51s (Umemoto identified as from Sentai 27 and 独飛89). The first two were the result of my trying to follow up on your attachments (#77) from a brief history of the 71st Independent Flight Company. The second two were the result of my following up on your suggestion (#62, #71) that the Ki-51 could be an alternative. As I noted, unfortunately none of the four fit the situation at Mae La Luang. 

They were selected from a much larger / longer list of IJAAF casualties during that period. You quote a Domei Report dated Dec 1943: "IJA aircraft lost in the battle of Burma for a year from December 7, 1942 to December 8, 1943 are reported 72". Note that three of the IJAAF casualties I cited occurred before December 7, 1942, and one after December 8, 1943, in April 1944. None were in that period reported in Domei.

I counted casualties listed by Umemoto for the same period as the Domei Report. His results were substantially higher than Domei for both the IJAAF and the Allies:

IJAAF: 369
Allied: 236

Regardless of the difference in numbers, the vast majority of Umemoto's 369 IJAAF casualties involved aircraft that did not have two-man crews, and, therefore, would fail to fit the details at Mae La Luang. Only six events involved two-man crew aircraft; none were close to Mae La Luang; and none landed on a river bank.

I fear that we're just "spinning our wheels" in this search. In general, details from official records and eye witness accounts just don't match well. As you mentioned in your #70, we really need to find and identify the only allegedly remaining physical piece of evidence from the crash, ie, the aluminum disk. I'll check at the Memorial Hall in Khun Yuam next year to see if the disk has been found and update you.

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## Shinpachi (Oct 7, 2022)

The Domei (Domei News Agency) reports the aircraft loss during the period like this -

IJAAF: 72
Allied: 591 (86 uncertain)

I have no idea about Umemoto's research but let me wish your good luck.
Thanks.


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## islandee (Nov 18, 2022)

P-40B Performance (change of subject): 
Estimating the last moments of flight of Flying Tiger Jack Newkirk which ended with his fatal crash in Lamphun, Thailand on 24 Mar 1942.

There are a number of possible scenarios regarding the fatal crash of Jack Newkirk (see two examples here and here). One is that, on starting his return to Chiang Mai from strafing targets in Lamphun, he followed the rail line north and encountered AA fire from a railway bridge at N18°35.12 E99°01.3. He circled around to the left to make another approach on the bridge to attack the AA unit, but hit a tree, and crashed at about N18°34.76' E99°01.25. 

Out of curiosity, I made some assumptions and roughed in a possible flight path, checked distances, and calculated a flight time of about _32 seconds_ between Newkirk being fired on by an AA unit at a railway bridge and his crash as he was circling to target that AA unit. Things do happen quickly at 300 mph; but just 32 seconds? I wonder if that's possible.

I roughed in a possible flight path on the attached Google Earth map. From that, I made these calcs:

Assume approx. speed = 340 mph* (547 kph), but say 500 kph for ease of calculation.

500 kph x 1000 m/km 
—————————---- = 140 m/sec 
60 min/hr x 60 sec/min 

Flight path measures approximately 4.5 km long.

So, time to fly path length was approximately 

4.5 km x 1000 m/km
—————————-- = 32 sec
140 m/sec

*Dan Ford, _Flying Tigers_, p 354

Some questions come to mind:

1. Is 500 kph (311 mph) a realistic speed to assume at a strafing altitude for a P-40B?
2. At that speed, or other speed (if judged more likely), is the flight path, 
particularly with its turning diameters of about 1 km (0.6 mi), realistic?
3. For that matter, would the turns significantly reduce the flight speed 
and thereby significantly increase the flight duration?

Any comment would be appreciated.


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