# B17



## jhor9 (Apr 2, 2006)

If anyone has a question, perhaps I can answer. I had 450 combat hours during WW2. 50 combat sorties from July 43 to Feb 44. i also had 3 rides within the last 10 years


----------



## syscom3 (Apr 2, 2006)

Welcome Jhor! Its great we have a veteran here that can give us valuable insights into the air war of WW2

My first question is what BG's did fly in?

And, just of curiosity, did you have any flights in the Collins foundation B17..."909"?


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 2, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Welcome Jhor! Its great we have a veteran here that can give us valuable insights into the air war of WW2
> 
> My first question is what BG's did fly in?
> 
> And, just of curiosity, did you have any flights in the Collins foundation B17..."909"?



I was in the 99th B.G. in the 12th then 15th Air Force, flying out of Tunis then Foggia

Several weeks ago the Collings B17, B24 and B25 were at 3 local airports in my area, for a total of 11 days. I've been acting as a docent for the last 15 years when they stop here

They have never offered me a ride and I certainly wont pay for it. 3 years ago EEAs Aluminum Overcast stopped enroute to Kitty Hawk., they invited me to have a ride.

A company at Ft.Lauderdale Executive airport that does restoration and refurbishing work brought a plane in from Bolivia and restored it, about 8 years ago.. I helped in some of the coolie work, when it was finally in pristene condition I got to ride in it. The big thrill was when Don Whittington put me in the copilots seat and I had the controls for about 10 minutes, when i got out of the seat I asked him if i should go to the rear and push it a little bit. It was a great experience after 55 years.


----------



## syscom3 (Apr 2, 2006)

Jhor, what crew position were you? Pilot or copilot?

In 1994, I took a ride in the Collings foundations B17. That was a fun!


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Apr 3, 2006)

Very cool and welcome to the site - my question...

How far forward was the pilots seat from the top turret?!?!

Many thanks and again welcome!


----------



## Hot Space (Apr 3, 2006)

Welcome to the Site m8. Alway's nice to have a Vet here


----------



## evangilder (Apr 3, 2006)

Welcome aboard, jhor9! I am sure I speak for most of us here when I say thank you for your service.


----------



## Nonskimmer (Apr 3, 2006)

evangilder said:


> Welcome aboard, jhor9! I am sure I speak for most of us here when I say thank you for your service.


Indeed! Welcome aboard! My grandfather is a bomber veteran as well, and it's great to hear from the boys who were actually there! 

Pleased to meet ya!


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 3, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Jhor, what crew position were you? Pilot or copilot?
> 
> In 1994, I took a ride in the Collings foundations B17. That was a fun!



I was pilot A/C


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 3, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Very cool and welcome to the site - my question...
> 
> How far forward was the pilots seat from the top turret?!?!
> 
> Many thanks and again welcome!



I would guess about 3 feet


----------



## Erich (Apr 3, 2006)

Jules :

Welcome to our little spot on the net. good to see you over here from armyairforces forums.

Erich ~


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Apr 3, 2006)

jhor9 said:


> I was pilot A/C


 Thanks - it was a running discussion here!


----------



## syscom3 (Apr 3, 2006)

Jhor, Im curious about the training that the pilots had.

Can you give us some idea's on the actual number of hours you and your colleagues actually flew during training. Was it more or less than the official required hours?

How did you get selected to fly B17's?

Thanks!


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 4, 2006)

Can anyone put an avatar of me on this site? If so, and you send me your e-mail I can send you a picture. I don't know how to do it.


----------



## v2 (Apr 4, 2006)

Warm greetings from Poland, jhor9!


----------



## evangilder (Apr 5, 2006)

jhor9 said:


> Can anyone put an avatar of me on this site? If so, and you send me your e-mail I can send you a picture. I don't know how to do it.



You can send it to me in a PM (private message). I can get it reduced in size to fit the parameters and get it to you.


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 5, 2006)

evangilder said:


> You can send it to me in a PM (private message). I can get it reduced in size to fit the parameters and get it to you.



Your e-mail address doesn't accept send e-mail
http://www.vg-photo.com


----------



## Erich (Apr 5, 2006)

Jules go up to the left and click the red evangilder. look at the box and find send evangilder a private message. when you get to that then attache your small photo to send to Eric. He then can reduce it for you, sending it back so you can place it with your profile.

does this make sense ?

Erich ~


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 7, 2006)

Erich said:


> Jules go up to the left and click the red evangilder. look at the box and find send evangilder a private message. when you get to that then attache your small photo to send to Eric. He then can reduce it for you, sending it back so you can place it with your profile.
> 
> does this make sense ?
> 
> Erich ~



I believe that you already have it


----------



## Erich (Apr 7, 2006)

Jules a different Eric that goes by Evangilder not me: Erich B ~


----------



## lesofprimus (Apr 9, 2006)

> Very cool and welcome to the site - my question...
> 
> How far forward was the pilots seat from the top turret?!?!


LMFAO Joe..... That was great....

Welcome Jules....

My questions revolve around the Fw-190A-8's and their increased 30mm armament.... Were u guys ever briefed and/or warned about this kites attack profile and destructive power, or was it just another FW???

It seems that some pilots were briefed and some werent...


----------



## Gnomey (Apr 9, 2006)

Welcome Jules.


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 11, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Jhor, Im curious about the training that the pilots had.
> 
> Can you give us some idea's on the actual number of hours you and your colleagues actually flew during training. Was it more or less than the official required hours?
> 
> ...



I enlisted Dec 8 1941 and requested flying in the army air corps, I was appointed as an aviation cadet. each segment of the following lasted about 8 weeks.I and many others were put on ice for a few months because of the large influx of recruits First was preflight at Maxwell fld ,AL then primary at Camden SC flying P19 or 17 Stearman. At basic the BT13 at Shaw fld Sumpter SC, then AT 10, twin engine at Moody fld Valdosta, GA. Each phase was about 60 flying hours.At that time between primary and basic there was about 35% washout rate, the reason was they couldn't advance fast enough in the time allotted,.I got my wings Dec12, 1942 at Moody fld. At that time their was a great need for bomber pilots, we were losing the war.


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 11, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Jhor, Im curious about the training that the pilots had.
> 
> Can you give us some idea's on the actual number of hours you and your colleagues actually flew during training. Was it more or less than the official required hours?
> 
> ...



syscom3
I enlisted Dec 8 1941 and requested flying in the army air corps, I was appointed as an aviation cadet. each segment of the following lasted about 8 weeks.I and many others were put on ice for a few months because of the large influx of recruits First was preflight at Maxwell fld ,AL then primary at Camden SC flying P19 or 17 Stearman. At basic the BT13 at Shaw fld Sumpter SC, then AT 10, twin engine at Moody fld Valdosta, GA. Each phase was about 60 flying hours.At that time between primary and basic there was about 35% washout rate, the reason was they couldn't advance fast enough in the time allotted,.I got my wings Dec12, 1942 at Moody fld. At that time their was a great need for bomber pilots, we were losing the war.


----------



## syscom3 (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks JHOR. At what point were you selected for bomber training and how did you end up in B17's. Was a whole class assigned the same type of aircraft to fly, or did you get split up for some to fly A20's, some for B24's, some for B17's, etc.

One other question. The student pilots who washed out, did they get another chance to qualify, or were they sent to bombardier or navigation school?


----------



## delcyros (Apr 11, 2006)

Greetings! 
Nice to have You here around. May I ask what Your first impression about the B-17 was?


----------



## Erich (Apr 16, 2006)

Jules can you tell us why the diamond back design with the Y was used on the tail surfaces ? also in regard to the tail diamond, I see from the 99th bg web-site that some B-17's had a black diamond with white Y and others in same formation a white diamond with black Y. differences in squadron ?

many thanks 

Erich


----------



## Henk (Apr 17, 2006)

Welcome jhor9 to the site.

I would like to know which famous targets did you get to bomb if any and have you been in a raid where there were any Me-262? Wish mission would you never forget?

Henk


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 23, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Thanks JHOR. At what point were you selected for bomber training and how did you end up in B17's. Was a whole class assigned the same type of aircraft to fly, or did you get split up for some to fly A20's, some for B24's, some for B17's, etc.
> 
> One other question. The student pilots who washed out, did they get another chance to qualify, or were they sent to bombardier or navigation school?



I don't remember but I'm quite sure that at graduation when I got my wings, our class was split up and we were sent to various bases for training in different operational aircraft
During my time in 1942, washouts were sent to nav and bombardier schools,
Later all cadets had to take what was called stanine (?) tests which determined what schools they would be sent to. The latter part of 1944 after a stint as pilot instructor I requested nav school, I had to take the stanine tests , same as cadets, but since I was a student officer I asked for nav school only, i eventually earned nav wings and was dual rated,


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 23, 2006)

delcyros said:


> Greetings!
> Nice to have You here around. May I ask what Your first impression about the B-17 was?


 
I was overwhelmed, on my orientation walk through to the cockpit, my instructor said to his 3 students "take a good look because in 10 days you will take a blinfold test, you will touch each instrument or object that is called off". 10 days later we all had no problem with his test.


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 23, 2006)

Erich said:


> Jules can you tell us why the diamond back design with the Y was used on the tail surfaces ? also in regard to the tail diamond, I see from the 99th bg web-site that some B-17's had a black diamond with white Y and others in same formation a white diamond with black Y. differences in squadron ?
> 
> many thanks
> 
> Erich



The change in design was instituted after I left the group. During my time we had a white diamond on a black background with 1 to 4 white vertical stripes under the diamond. the later design still had the roman numeral stripes that denoted the sqdns


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 23, 2006)

Henk said:


> Welcome jhor9 to the site.
> 
> I would like to know which famous targets did you get to bomb if any and have you been in a raid where there were any Me-262? Wish mission would you never forget?
> 
> Henk


My 1st mission 7/19/43 I flew copilot with our sqdn ops officer. Target was Rome marshalling yards, the day before, leaflets were dropped stating that no churches would be hit. At briefing we were told that if there were any malfunctions, not to drop bommbs. 3 newsmen went on the flight, we had Richard Tregaskis with us from Intl News Service. the following day my picture was on the front page of a major New York newspaper.

During my tour the most important target was Weiner Neustadt 30 miles below Vienna . I went there twice, once from Tunis, which was a 14 hour flight 

On one of my last missions I was told that a ME262 flew over our group

There were several, but the most memorable was after flying copilot for several missions, I got my crew back and flew left seat. Our target was to Foggia. We had very heavy flak, the lead plane had their controls shot away, but they were able to get to friendly areas where they bailed out. The plane on the other wing had 1 or 2 men killed, my navigator was wounded, when we landed I counted over 100 holes in the plane, It was my baptism under fire.


----------



## syscom3 (Apr 23, 2006)

jhor9 said:


> I was overwhelmed, on my orientation walk through to the cockpit, my instructor said to his 3 students "take a good look because in 10 days you will take a blinfold test, you will touch each instrument or object that is called off". 10 days later we all had no problem with his test.



Jhor, was that standard practice for the B17 training pilots to have three student pilots under his "wings".

What were the first few training flights like? Go up to altitude and take turns flying around? Did you actually get to stall the plane to get practice in recovery techniques?


----------



## Henk (Apr 23, 2006)

Jhor that sound pretty hectic mate. I love hearing those kind of story's. 

Thanks for sharing mate.

Henk


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 23, 2006)

evangilder said:


> Welcome aboard, jhor9! I am sure I speak for most of us here when I say thank you for your service.



Thank you for posting my avatar
Jules


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 23, 2006)

hey, my question's more of a cultural one, what was the general American opinion of the British people? and what did you guys think of the RAF?


----------



## loomaluftwaffe (Apr 24, 2006)

have any of your gunners shot down a fighter?


----------



## gis-nl (Apr 24, 2006)

found this one for the B25, Is this a general book what all bomber pilots have to learn or was for each type off bomber ( like the B17) a different book ?


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 24, 2006)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> hey, my question's more of a cultural one, what was the general American opinion of the British people? and what did you guys think of the RAF?



We considered the RAF groups as we considered a neighboring American group
When I was a cadet in training I roomed with a Brit flying Sgt, we got along very well


----------



## Erich (Apr 24, 2006)

Jules looks like you have many questions coming your way .......... excellent !

thank you for answering mine on ID markings and another if I may. I am familiar with Austria but the ops on Wiener Neustadt was defended more heavily by flak or single/twin engine fighters. . ? I imagine your bomb group faced Bf 110G-2's from II./ZG 1 during your war time career of 1943 to late winter of 44 . .

Erich


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 24, 2006)

loomaluftwaffe said:


> have any of your gunners shot down a fighter?


 
My crew got credit for shooting down 6 enemy fighters


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 24, 2006)

gis-nl said:


> found this one for the B25, Is this a general book what all bomber pilots have to learn or was for each type off bomber ( like the B17) a different book ?


 
I really don't remember, but it looks right. while in the U.S. Overseas during combat operations it did not hold true


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 24, 2006)

Erich said:


> Jules looks like you have many questions coming your way .......... excellent !
> 
> thank you for answering mine on ID markings and another if I may. I am familiar with Austria but the ops on Wiener Neustadt was defended more heavily by flak or single/twin engine fighters. . ? I imagine your bomb group faced Bf 110G-2's from II./ZG 1 during your war time career of 1943 to late winter of 44 . .
> 
> Erich


If I remember correctly there were several targets in the area, I think mostly aircraft production. My tour from 7/43 to 2/44, (before Ploesti) the area was the most heaviest defended target we went to, very heavy flak and many fighters. I was told that during my Nov 43 flight we were attacked by over 80 fighters. Incidentally my ball gunner got credit for 2 fighters that day.


----------



## gis-nl (Apr 24, 2006)

jhor9 said:


> I really don't remember, but it looks right. while in the U.S. Overseas during combat operations it did not hold true



Tnx for your reply.
It's the same with your driving license, during combat in the big city it do not hold true either


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 25, 2006)

WINGS of FREEDOM ( B-17, B-24, B-25) Burbank, Ca. April 28- May 2 Friday- Tuesday
Bob Hope Airport Flight reservations 800-568-8924 (Flights are $425 for the 17s and 24s, but $325 and $400 for the 25s. (Tax Deductible Donations) $10 walk through adult


$425? Hmmm That's about what they paid me for flying them for 2 months.


----------



## evangilder (Apr 25, 2006)

I will be out there on Saturday to take my son to see these historic birds. I wish I could afford the flight, but I understand it takes a lot of money to keep these planes flying. I will try and get some good shots, but the crowds will probably be pretty heavy.

Wow, 425 for 2 months! And I know that flying them into unfriendly skies was probably not the funnest job either.


----------



## syscom3 (Apr 25, 2006)

jhor9 said:


> WINGS of FREEDOM ( B-17, B-24, B-25) Burbank, Ca. April 28- May 2 Friday- Tuesday
> Bob Hope Airport Flight reservations 800-568-8924 (Flights are $425 for the 17s and 24s, but $325 and $400 for the 25s. (Tax Deductible Donations) $10 walk through adult
> 
> 
> $425? Hmmm That's about what they paid me for flying them for 2 months.



JHOR, in 1994, I paid for a one hour ride in the Collings Foundation B17G. What a heck of a ride!

We flew along the beaches of south Los Angeles county and along Orange County beaches.

The weather sucked though. I had the morning flight and there was thick overcast. Fortunatly the ceiling was high enough for us to fly. It probably added to the authenticity of the flight though, like we were flying in crappy European weather.


----------



## loomaluftwaffe (Apr 25, 2006)

crappy European weather isn't so crappy in the Pacific though


----------



## Erich (Apr 25, 2006)

Jules thank you for the quick response again .... . . 

a question similiar to the one I asked and not sure if you can give a definate or not you being in the forward part of the B-17 and very busy with other things, but do you remember where most of the Lufwaffe attacks came from (direction) ? front, sides, etc ?


----------



## syscom3 (Apr 26, 2006)

JHOR, when in your training, at what point where some cadets selected for the pilot position and the others for the co-pilot position? What did the AAF decide on who made the commander?

Once you got to Europe and assigned to your bomb squadron, was it normal for all new pilots and co-pilots to fly with veteran's as to gain experience?


----------



## Hot Space (Apr 26, 2006)

A daft qustion m8? Would you have swapped the B-17 for a Lancaster? Some U.S serviceman joined the RCAF or RAF when the war 1st started and said that they wouldn't swapped the 'Lanc' for anything - including a B-17.


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 26, 2006)

Erich

The only time that I saw a fighter was when I checked out my co pilot, he flew in the left seat. The other times I was too busy keeping the plane in tight formation. although I could hear the crew on interphone calling out direction of attacking fighters


----------



## Erich (Apr 26, 2006)

Jules thank you again for the reply . . . 

Erich


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 27, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> JHOR, when in your training, at what point where some cadets selected for the pilot position and the others for the co-pilot position? What did the AAF decide on who made the commander?
> 
> Once you got to Europe and assigned to your bomb squadron, was it normal for all new pilots and co-pilots to fly with veteran's as to gain experience?



Since my 3rd phase of training was in twin engine planes I knew that I wouldn't be assigned to fighters. The bosses tried to meet your requests I asked for A20 (I believe it was called the Havoc)however they said that they needed 4 engine pilots ASAP , so after getting my wings I was assigned to B17 transition school.


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 27, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> JHOR, when in your training, at what point where some cadets selected for the pilot position and the others for the co-pilot position? What did the AAF decide on who made the commander?
> 
> Once you got to Europe and assigned to your bomb squadron, was it normal for all new pilots and co-pilots to fly with veteran's as to gain experience?



The procedure in my group was that an incoming 1st pilot would fly as copilot with a checked out copilot. The incoming copilot would fly with a veteran pilot. After several missions I got my complete crew back again. About half way through my tour I checked out my co pilot in the left seat . I then had new copilots in the right seat. I hope that I made sense.

Other groups might have had other procedures.


----------



## syscom3 (Apr 27, 2006)

Yes Jules, this is really interesting.

Heres my next question. Had you ever flown in a plane before your enlistment? What was your first flight as a cadet like?


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 27, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> LMFAO Joe..... That was great....
> 
> Welcome Jules....
> 
> ...



I don't recall being briefed on particulars of fighters other then the ME262. Our briefing just told us how many fighters we might expect to encounter.


----------



## jhor9 (Apr 27, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Yes Jules, this is really interesting.
> 
> Heres my next question. Had you ever flown in a plane before your enlistment? What was your first flight as a cadet like?



In 1941 I won a flight scholarship that enabled me to get 35 hours in a Piper Cub, once I had that under my belt it was the AAF for me. I enlisted the day after Pearl Harbor. I recall the exhilaration that overcame me when I made my first solo in the Piper Cub after several hours.
As a cadet flying the Stearman bi wing, it was old hat, My instructor had me solo after 3 hours


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Apr 27, 2006)

jhor9 said:


> I don't remember but I'm quite sure that at graduation when I got my wings, our class was split up and we were sent to various bases for training in different operational aircraft
> During my time in 1942, washouts were sent to nav and bombardier schools,
> Later all cadets had to take what was called stanine (?) tests which determined what schools they would be sent to. The latter part of 1944 after a stint as pilot instructor I requested nav school, I had to take the stanine tests , same as cadets, but since I was a student officer I asked for nav school only, i eventually earned nav wings and was dual rated,


 Great stuff jhor!!! 

I had an uncle who washed out, he was sent to bombadier's school. He told me for a spell that bombaiders made a little more than pilots - do you remember if that was true?



gis-nl said:


> found this one for the B25, Is this a general book what all bomber pilots have to learn or was for each type off bomber ( like the B17) a different book ?


 This instrument approach procedure isn't written for a specific plane but is flown based on time and airspeed - it's very similar ti instrument approach procedures today...


----------



## jhor9 (May 14, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Jhor, was that standard practice for the B17 training pilots to have three student pilots under his "wings".
> 
> What were the first few training flights like? Go up to altitude and take turns flying around? Did you actually get to stall the plane to get practice in recovery techniques?



Sorry I didn't answer you sooner. I believe that we had 3 trainees to an instructor. Yes, we did practice stalls. We had much practice landings and takeoffs. When landing we had to cut power on the downwind leg and hit a 10 foot circle on the runway, after practice we did it regularly


----------



## jhor9 (May 14, 2006)

gis-nl said:


> found this one for the B25, Is this a general book what all bomber pilots have to learn or was for each type off bomber ( like the B17) a different book ?



I think this pattern was pretty standard for the time


----------



## syscom3 (May 14, 2006)

Thanks again Jules.

Next questions:

1) When did your group find out you were going to Italy?

2) What route did you fly over there?

3) What were your impressions of the place when you arrived?


----------



## Haztoys (May 14, 2006)

Great to have you here 

One more if I may ..

You were trained .... Training was done ...Off to the ETO..You go ..

Now ..How did the training work out ...??

American training was good on showing what combat would be like ...

Or .. Was not ..??? 

OR..??

Thanks 

David


----------



## lesofprimus (May 15, 2006)

Hey Jules, do u ever get tired of answering questions??? Im sure u understand why someone like urself is so interesting to guys like us...


----------



## davparlr (May 16, 2006)

Some pictures of a couple of forts, one flying the other super, that you guys may be interested in.


----------



## jhor9 (May 16, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> Hey Jules, do u ever get tired of answering questions??? Im sure u understand why someone like urself is so interesting to guys like us...



Not at all. If the younger gererations are interested in my gererations feats in WW2, I for one am glad to answer questions. It also proves to me that I still don't have Alzheimers. Fire away with your querys.
For the last 15 years, when the Collings planes come to the 3 local airports in my area, I stay by the B17 and act as a docent.


----------



## jhor9 (May 20, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Thanks again Jules.
> 
> Next questions:
> 
> ...



I never did answer your question, here goes----

1. During crew training I was assigned to a provisional group, consisting of six crews, C.O. was a bird Col.

2. left Palm Beach, FL then to Puerto Rico,British Guyana, Belm Brazil, Natal Brazil. All day flights just keeping in sight of each other. Then from Natl to Dakar, West Africa, then Marrakesh, finally to Rabat, Morocco where we stayed until assigned to a group as replacements,

3. I was impressed by my surroundings,
since I had never been out of the country


----------



## jhor9 (May 20, 2006)

Haztoys said:


> Great to have you here
> 
> One more if I may ..
> 
> ...



David, 

How about this as an eye opener!!!

After I got my crew we went to Boise, Idaho for 1st phase, it was unbelievable (Incidentally, Jimmie Stewart, the actor was a 1st Lt.B17 instructor) We sat around for about 4 weeks doing absolutely nothing, Then the next 2 weeks we did 8 weeks of flying. Maybe I might have gotten back to my barracks 3 times for a shower and a change of clothes, the rest of the time I slept in the ready room, at the line. We didn't even have time to go to the mess hall, I would send a crew member to the PX or the mess hall to get sandwiches and milk for the rest of us. But the worst part was that when I got my medical shots, I asked the technician to make sure to give me the tetanus shot in my right arm, because I had to use muscle with my left to manage the planes control column, he screwed up and I got it in the wrong arm. The typhoid shot gave me a fever, you can imagine the condition I was in, dizzy with fever and a partially numb arm, with a copilot who had never been in a B17. Flying at night in snowstorms and using the radio range doing instrument flying, with 3000ft mountains about 3-4 miles away paralleling the runway.

Then we had 2nd and 3rd phase at Rapid City S.Dakota . Here we had a fuel problem our training was just cross country, just to get refueled so that the next crew would do the same thing. The maintenance was poor because as soon as ground people became experienced they were shipped out, There was one incident where a crew made a forced landing in the badlands, all 4 engines quit because they ran out of fuel. During this time I also had a generator catch fire while in flight. I never had a formation or high altitude flight, until I got on the job training in combat.

After finishing my so called training we had a 5 day delay en route to our next base. We all went home because we knew that we were going overseas when we returned, 2 of my crew never returned, I got replacements. I wasn't joking when I told my folks that I was lucky to finish my "training", it would probably be safer overseas.
We were losing the war during this period, and they needed crews overseas ASAP.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 20, 2006)

Wow I can only imagine what it must have been like. The training today is so much different, but at the same time, the crews are not prepared for combat today. It is actually scary.


----------



## jhor9 (May 29, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Wow I can only imagine what it must have been like. The training today is so much different, but at the same time, the crews are not prepared for combat today. It is actually scary.



I think that you are wrong, I think that today's flight crews are well prepared. I get "Air Force" magazine and from what I gather the flying people are well trained. The smaller number of trainees, because of cost factors, I believe are well trained. One example that occurs to me is the top gun test which is most competitive.


----------



## syscom3 (May 29, 2006)

JHOR,

Greetings this memorial day. Thanks for your service to us all in the second world war, and thanks for your contributions to the website!


----------



## Erich (May 29, 2006)

Jules I will second what syscom says in a big "thanks" to your generation for helping keep America free and the world

Erich ~


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 29, 2006)

jhor9 said:


> I think that you are wrong, I think that today's flight crews are well prepared. I get "Air Force" magazine and from what I gather the flying people are well trained. The smaller number of trainees, because of cost factors, I believe are well trained. One example that occurs to me is the top gun test which is most competitive.



Well I can not speak for the Airforce but in Army Aviation none of the training that we recieved prepared us for flying in Iraq. We only trained for fighting a different kind of war such as the Russian Hoared. I am sure the aircrews that came to Iraq after us, recieved better training.


----------



## davparlr (May 29, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Well I can not speak for the Airforce but in Army Aviation none of the training that we recieved prepared us for flying in Iraq. We only trained for fighting a different kind of war such as the Russian Hoared. I am sure the aircrews that came to Iraq after us, recieved better training.



Historically, the military has always been preparing for the last war. Luckily, there are always a few who prepare for the future. Also, military personnel tend to learn very quickly on the battlefield!


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 29, 2006)

That sounds about right. Our Training area has just switched over now for the kind of environment and war we are fighting now.


----------



## PipsPriller (Jun 1, 2006)

Hi jhor, what was the normal operating height for your missions? If that varied at all, did you have a preference for a height that you found the B-17 flew best at?


----------



## jhor9 (Jun 2, 2006)

PipsPriller said:


> Hi jhor, what was the normal operating height for your missions? If that varied at all, did you have a preference for a height that you found the B-17 flew best at?



Most of my sorties were flown between 20M and 28M feet. The higher one goes the more difficult it is to fly in tight formation, because of the air density.From the time that you change the throttle setting until you get a reaction, there is a time lapse of 2 or 3 seconds. However the different time lapse between 20 and 28M feet is hardly noticeable, Of course if one leads an element or a sqdn that is not much a problem.

I remember from experience that if a person flew a wing slot in the 3rd element, unless one had a good sqdn leader who made very minor corrections, it made it much easier for the guy in the #8 or #9 position. We had one leader who made greater then minor corrections, when he led, the sqdn was all over the sky.


----------



## Erich (Jun 7, 2006)

Jules my question is similiar to your last response to the poster.

# 1 how many missions did you fly over Vienna

# 2 since the city was armed with heavy Flak towers of twin- 128mm AA guns did your B-17 group fly higher than normal here than say Wiener Neustadt or Steyr, Linz etc. during those oeprations ? 

many thanks

Erich ~


----------



## jhor9 (Jun 8, 2006)

I flew 2 missions in Vienna area, Weiner Neustadt. It was abou 25-26M feet, about the same as most others.


----------



## jhor9 (Jun 8, 2006)

I flew 2 missions in the Vienna area, Weiner Neustadt. It was about 25-26M feet, about the same as most others.


----------



## Erich (Jun 8, 2006)

so no changes it appears, a steady level flight over the Austrian capital and elsehwere

thanks

Erich


----------



## jhor9 (Aug 1, 2006)

Erich said:


> so no changes it appears, a steady level flight over the Austrian capital and elsehwere
> 
> thanks
> 
> Erich



Erich

When there is a maximum effort and many groups are going to the same target complex, there may be a variation of several thousand feet between some groups


----------



## jhor9 (Sep 5, 2006)

Sorry that I've been away from this site. I recently had major surgery. Now I believe that I'm on the road to recovery, I hope


----------



## syscom3 (Sep 5, 2006)

Glad you returned, and hope all is doing well with you!


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Sep 5, 2006)

Ditto


----------



## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 6, 2006)

Welcome back. I feel It's really an honor to have a Veteran on here.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 6, 2006)

Welcome back, hope you recover fast and well.


----------



## Erich (Sep 6, 2006)

Jules good to see you here again, been following on armyairfoces forum(s)


----------



## evangilder (Sep 13, 2006)

Welcome back, Jules. I hope you are healing well and feeling better.


----------



## Henk (Sep 13, 2006)

Yes, welcome back and you must get well soon.


----------



## Matt308 (Oct 3, 2006)

Jules, hope your recovery has come and gone and your health has returned.

My questions -

* Were the cheek .50s effective and were they kept in the aircraft? If deemed ineffective, was it only by directive that you were forced to keep them installed?

* What was the length of the average maintenance activities on your aircraft between missions? Minus major overhaul (modern day letter checks), was the aircraft typically turned around in a day or so for mission readiness?

* During any of your missions, did you or your crew report seeing aircraft of unknown configurations? What specifics might you recall?

Thanks for your time. I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread.

Matt


----------



## jhor9 (Oct 8, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Jhor, Im curious about the training that the pilots had.
> 
> Can you give us some idea's on the actual number of hours you and your colleagues actually flew during training. Was it more or less than the official required hours?
> 
> ...


Syscom

As an aviation cadet I went through primary, basic and advanced.schools.
I had about 60+/- flying hours at each step, along with ground school.
Primary school had about a 1/3 washout rate,basic also had cadets washout.
In primary we flew Stearman PT 17 or 19? Basic was all metal BT 13 (Vultee Vibrator). Advanced we flew AT10 twin engine.Going to twin engine , I knew that I wasn't going to fighters. I asked for A-20's but they needed heavy bomber pilots, I went to B17 transition school, after which I formed a crew.


----------



## FAC (Oct 14, 2006)

Jhor9

Thanks for you service and I hope all is well.

Just how cold was it sitting in the pilots position @28,000ft? 

My dad flew in the 15th, 2Bomb grp., 20thsqdn, since he didn't talk about it all that much, we never got around to general flying conditions. 

Thanks

Doug


----------



## jhor9 (Oct 17, 2006)

FAC said:


> Jhor9
> 
> Thanks for you service and I hope all is well.
> 
> ...



FAC

I don't know if I answered your question ---- At 28000 ft the temp was -50 to -60F. During my tour we didn't have heated suits or flak jackets. To give you a picture--- near or at the target I'd br sweating (adrenalin), condensation from my O2 mask would drip down on my chest leaving about an inch of ice, from the top of my thighs (parachute straps)to the tip of my toes absolutely numb, no feeling at all, operating the rudder pedals were from my head since I had no feeling in my legs and feet. The waist gunners had it worse because of open windows Once I had an orange which I dropped, it shattered in hundreds of pieces
Later in 1944 they had heated suitsand flak jackets


----------



## jhor9 (Oct 18, 2006)

Matt308 said:


> Jules, hope your recovery has come and gone and your health has returned.
> 
> My questions -
> 
> ...


 
Matt.
I don't know the answer to your 1st question

Usually, if there was no major damage the plane was ready to go the next day

The only unusual plane that I saw, near the end of my tour was the ME 262 ,
because of it's tremendous speed


----------



## Matt308 (Oct 18, 2006)

Thanks, Jules.

My first question was more out of curiosity of whether the bombardier actually used the cheek guns. They seemed from my ill-informed background to be of limited use based upon them being single guns, limited traverse and narrow field of fire (vs nose mounted gun/turret). Thus, if they were viewed as ineffective, did the crews have the leeway to remove them to save weight? Or is any gun considered indispensable and they kept them in.

Thanks for answering my questions.


----------



## Soundbreaker Welch? (Oct 20, 2006)

Did you ever fly nightime missions?? If so, what did you prefer, daytime or nighttime missions? 

I imagine the flak and fighter presence was worse during the day, but at night was it harder to keep the plane flying in formation and also to fly straight over the target area during the bombing run?


----------



## jhor9 (Oct 23, 2006)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> Did you ever fly nightime missions?? If so, what did you prefer, daytime or nighttime missions?
> 
> I imagine the flak and fighter presence was worse during the day, but at night was it harder to keep the plane flying in formation and also to fly straight over the target area during the bombing run?



The B17s never flew night missions to the best of my knowledge. In our theatre we had wimpy wellingtons who flew night missions, I know that they had heavy losses.


----------



## Erich (Oct 23, 2006)

B-17's flew under the RAF 100th special group on blocking German radar and counter moves over the Reich. The 15th AF US flew B-24's at night on spec ops under the 2641st special provisional through 1945 over Yugoslavia, Czech and Austria facing the Luftwaffes NJG 100 Ju 88G-6's

E `


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 23, 2006)

Thanks for sharing all that with jhor. It truely is amazing what you guys did.


----------



## jhor9 (Nov 25, 2006)

Matt308 said:


> Thanks, Jules.
> 
> My first question was more out of curiosity of whether the bombardier actually used the cheek guns. They seemed from my ill-informed background to be of limited use based upon them being single guns, limited traverse and narrow field of fire (vs nose mounted gun/turret). Thus, if they were viewed as ineffective, did the crews have the leeway to remove them to save weight? Or is any gun considered indispensable and they kept them in.
> 
> Thanks for answering my questions.



Matt. 
Any gun that was in the plane was useful. I once tried unsuccessfully to use the flare gun to shoot at an enemy fighter


----------



## Matt308 (Nov 25, 2006)

Awwwwwww!!!! You can't stop there!!!

Please tell that story! I'm dying here. Feel free to embellish until your hearts content.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 26, 2006)

Yes this story is too interesting to pass up.


----------



## jhor9 (Nov 26, 2006)

Matt308 said:


> Awwwwwww!!!! You can't stop there!!!
> 
> Please tell that story! I'm dying here. Feel free to embellish until your hearts content.



Matt,

About halfway through my tour, I checked out my copilot, he was flying left seat and I was in the right seat with nothing to do. Our "large" formation was qbout 35-40 planes. My plane was on the extreme right side, This incident took about 5-6 seconds. I saw an enemy fighter coming at me from 4 o'clock 
I could see 20mm shells coming closer and closer. I had to do something. I remembered the flare gun with a shell in it just overhead and a litttle to the left, I reached up and tried to pull it down to shoot at him,In the heat of excitement I forgot that it was screwed in a half a turn.. Fortunately the fighter missed me, as he passed under my wing tip, I saw him waving at me , he thought that I was waving at him.

When I got back to base I related the incident to the S2 officer, he sent the item to hometown papers, several weeks later I received clippings from my folks 
"Nazi pilot and Jewish pilot, gladiators at war, salute each other in the heat of combat"


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 26, 2006)

Wow that is crazy!


----------



## syscom3 (Nov 26, 2006)

Hi Jhor.

Im curious about you being a Jewish pilot. I havent met or known of more than a handfull that served in that capacity in WW2

The only other one I met was when i was dating an old girlfriend of mine, who's dad was in B24 pilot training when the war ended.

1) Did you encounter any antisemitism during your training or tours?

2) Did the Army and AirForce give Jewish servicemen the option to fight in the Pacific so as to not have to worry about capture by the nazi's?

3)How many other Jewish airmen did you serve with? Were there enough around so the holy days werent a solo affair?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Nov 26, 2006)

Sys, have you ever heard of this guy?

Robert "Rosie" Rosenthal -- Jewish-American Hall of Fame -- Virtual Tour


----------



## syscom3 (Nov 26, 2006)

No I didnt. And thanks for that link!!!! I learned something new tonight!


----------



## Matt308 (Nov 27, 2006)

jhor9 said:


> Matt,
> 
> About halfway through my tour, I checked out my copilot, he was flying left seat and I was in the right seat with nothing to do. Our "large" formation was qbout 35-40 planes. My plane was on the extreme right side, This incident took about 5-6 seconds. I saw an enemy fighter coming at me from 4 o'clock
> I could see 20mm shells coming closer and closer. I had to do something. I remembered the flare gun with a shell in it just overhead and a litttle to the left, I reached up and tried to pull it down to shoot at him,In the heat of excitement I forgot that it was screwed in a half a turn.. Fortunately the fighter missed me, as he passed under my wing tip, I saw him waving at me , he thought that I was waving at him.
> ...



Great story!! Thanks.


----------



## jhor9 (Nov 30, 2006)

syscom3 said:


> Hi Jhor.
> 
> Im curious about you being a Jewish pilot. I havent met or known of more than a handfull that served in that capacity in WW2
> 
> ...



1.I never experienced any overt antisemitism

2. Never had any option

3. I had a j\Jewish waist gunner. I knew of a goodly number of Jewish navigators, also a pilot in my sqdn who was KIA. I don't understand the latter part of #3


----------



## Soundbreaker Welch? (Nov 30, 2006)

Great story. One minute that Nazi Pilot is shooting shells at you, then seeing you're a seemingly friendly fellow he decides to wave hello.

How hard was it to see the pilot's features or other details on an enemy plane passing your Bomber at the high speeds you were both going? It seems like it would be quite blurry! I guess they tried to find people with good eyesight in the Airforce. How about your fighter escorts?


From WWII books, a lot of other Flight Veterans also talk of seeing things that would pass almost in the blink of an eye.


----------



## jhor9 (Dec 2, 2006)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> Great story. One minute that Nazi Pilot is shooting shells at you, then seeing you're a seemingly friendly fellow he decides to wave hello.
> 
> How hard was it to see the pilot's features or other details on an enemy plane passing your Bomber at the high speeds you were both going? It seems like it would be quite blurry! I guess they tried to find people with good eyesight in the Airforce. How about your fighter escorts?
> 
> ...



Remember, we were both going in the same direction, so the relative speed wasn't that great.When he passed he was pretty close, he went within and below my wing, I was able to see his head wearing his O2 mask, it was probaly a split second view.

After that incident I realized why the AAF issued us brown underwear.

On that mission we didn't have any escort. I had quite a number of missions where we went unescorted

At my flight physical the most stringent part was the eye exam.


----------



## Soundbreaker Welch? (Dec 3, 2006)

Now I understand a little better. I thought he was coming horizontal to your fuselage. 

I need to learn those time positions better at any rate! 

It can still seem amazing at times to hear from somebody like you who lived through, and survived WWII. God bless you men for getting rid of those twin evils and who gave, along with all our men and women, the US one of it's greatests achievements of Patriotism and Teamwork.

Ok, ok, maybe I went a little too grand.............but those are the feelings I get from hearing about those days.


----------

