# Hi chaps from cold and wet England!



## Rocketeer (Jan 21, 2009)

New to the forum, recommended by a good friend.
My life is total aviation....I have been a Flight Test Engineer since 1987. Been restoring old stuff since 1978. My website is at default

When not working, I am busy picking up old stuff, the attached photo shows a DB603 from a Messerschmitt Me410 shot down over England (which hit actor Oliver Reed's house on its way to the crash).
The website will soon have an engines page to detail the 3 x Merlins and DB603. A P51D Mustang project was acquired recently which will be to static condition (long term). The aircraft had at least 3 kills including a share of an Me163........anyway's hi chaps and chappesses....


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## Maximowitz (Jan 21, 2009)

Welcome. Any idea which Me 410 it was?


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## Lucky13 (Jan 21, 2009)

I say old chap....jolly good to see you! Enjoy the ride...chocks away!


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## Colin1 (Jan 21, 2009)

Welcome dude
immensely envious of your hobby
I'm an engine-builder in my spare time too although nothing quite so exciting as yours


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## Geedee (Jan 21, 2009)

Yo dude, welcome to the site.

Looking good !.

You must come around and kick my Rsend to get the site updated as we discussed !


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## Messy1 (Jan 21, 2009)

Welcome to the site! I look forward to updates and PICTURES of your projects. Looks coll as hell!


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## Gnomey (Jan 21, 2009)

Welcome! Looking forward to hearing more about your projects.


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## Wurger (Jan 21, 2009)

Welcome mate.Greetings from Poland.


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## Airframes (Jan 21, 2009)

Hello and welcome from an even colder, lot further North, part of England!
Looking forward to seeing some of your work, especially the P51 restoration.
Terry.


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## Njaco (Jan 21, 2009)

Welcome from an equally frigid east coast of USA!


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## seesul (Jan 21, 2009)

Welcome to the family and greeting from Czech Republic8)


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## ccheese (Jan 21, 2009)

Welcome to the form. I ditto the request for pic's...

Charles


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## syscom3 (Jan 21, 2009)

Yes, we want to see pics!!!!! (please)


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## RabidAlien (Jan 22, 2009)

Welcome aboard!


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## Rocketeer (Jan 22, 2009)

Cheers Chaps and thanx for the warm welcome....will aim to get the website updated soonest....maybe even this weekend....the 410 was the one that came down at Radnage Bucks, will sort out the details if you like.....Tony


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## Wayne Little (Jan 22, 2009)

G'day Tony welcome to the forum mate!


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## Thorlifter (Jan 22, 2009)

Welcome to the site. Find a couple discussions and jump right in.


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## rochie (Jan 22, 2009)

hello and welcome mate


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 22, 2009)

Welcome to the forum.


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## KD5PEX (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi Rocketeer everyone else on the board, what a surprise to see that DB603
again after all this time, I was one of the people who dug it up back around 
1969 or 1970 when I was a member of 1811 Marlow ATC, even spoke to an eye witness of the crash who was still working at the farm at that time.

Here is an article about the chaps who shot it down in 1944 German air raid on Maidenhead

where has it been since then ? I've been here in the states for the last 20 years but returning to cold and wet England in about 9 months and would enjoy seeing it again one day, good luck with your projects.

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## badbear (Mar 26, 2009)

Welcome from a really wet and down right miserable suffolk mate.BB


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## Rocketeer (Mar 26, 2009)

KD5PEX said:


> Hi Rocketeer everyone else on the board, what a surprise to see that DB603
> again after all this time, I was one of the people who dug it up back around
> 1969 or 1970 when I was a member of 1811 Marlow ATC, even spoke to an eye witness of the crash who was still working at the farm at that time.
> 
> ...




It was at Booker in the museum there for ages and when that went it was sold on, I have had it a few months.....would be delighted to show it around to you!

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## KD5PEX (Mar 26, 2009)

Rocketeer said:


> It was at Booker in the museum there for ages and when that went it was sold on, I have had it a few months.....would be delighted to show it around to you!



Hi Tony

I remember it being at Booker, I was one of the ATC cadets who helped 
Peter Halliday and the Chiltern Historical Aircraft Preservation Group on a few of their digs, I camped out at the ME 410 crash site during the dig and collected a few small fragments for myself, I'm sure those fragments and maybe some pictures are at my mothers house in Marlow, when I get back to England I'll be in touch and pass on anything I have. When we pulled that DB603 out of the ground most of the supercharger was there but the magnesium casings turned to dust before our eyes.

I've been wondering what happened to Peters collection and its really great to have found a part of it after all this time, good luck with it and I'll really look forward to seeing this engine again one day.

Mike Oram Dixon NM USA


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## Bill G. (Mar 26, 2009)

Welcome from Michigan in the US of A!

It doesn't sound like the crew bailed out of the Me-410. So I am wondering if the remains were recovered after the crash? Was any remains found in the dig for the engine?

I am glad to see this history being preserved. I know we care. But will the general public?

Bill G.


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## KD5PEX (Mar 26, 2009)

Bill G. said:


> Welcome from Michigan in the US of A!
> 
> It doesn't sound like the crew bailed out of the Me-410. So I am wondering if the remains were recovered after the crash? Was any remains found in the dig for the engine?
> 
> ...



Hi Bill

I remember some blood stained bandages and some possible bone fragments,
the eye witness told us that they collected the remains and they were buried at the local church as "unknown German airmen" at the time, however its my understanding that Peter had contacted the Luftwaffe after we found the tail number and they had notified the families.

I know Peter had been able to track down the families of several fallen aircrew. The dig was covered by the local newspaper and I'm sure my clipping of the article is also at my mothers, when I get back and find that 
I will have the exact date of the dig. for some reason I can't remember all the details of what I did almost 40 years ago


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## KD5PEX (Mar 26, 2009)

After the dig we went to RAF Cosford to look at this Me410 File-Me410.JPG - Wikimedia Commons 
even got to sit in the pilots seat in this aircraft.

I don't know if anyone cares about this history all we can do is preserve these relics and hope the people we pass them to care as much as us.


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## Maximowitz (Mar 26, 2009)

Which unit did the 410 belong to? KG51?


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## KD5PEX (Mar 26, 2009)

Maximowitz said:


> Which unit did the 410 belong to? KG51?



Sorry but I don't remember many of the details now, its possible that my
notes from ATC have survived in England but until I get there and look I'm 
working from memory.

I wonder what happened to the documentation from the museum.


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## Maximowitz (Mar 26, 2009)

KD5PEX said:


> Sorry but I don't remember many of the details now, its possible that my
> notes from ATC have survived in England but until I get there and look I'm
> working from memory.
> 
> I wonder what happened to the documentation from the museum.




Thanks for the reply. I believe KG51 were active over Britain February to April 1944, before transitioning to the Me 262.


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## Bill G. (Mar 26, 2009)

KD5PEX said:


> Hi Bill
> 
> I remember some blood stained bandages and some possible bone fragments,
> the eye witness told us that they collected the remains and they were buried at the local church as "unknown German airmen" at the time, however its my understanding that Peter had contacted the Luftwaffe after we found the tail number and they had notified the families.
> ...



I am glad to see the the families were notified. That will be a help to them to know what did happen to their loved ones. There are still many that are still missing from both sides. It is up to us to help where we can to solve these mysteries.

I look forward to your posts in the future once you get back to England and can dig in your notes.

Forty years ago is a long time. I was back in High School then. There is still much I remember. And it is a good thing I don't remember it all!

Bill G.


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## KD5PEX (Mar 27, 2009)

Bill G. said:


> I am glad to see the the families were notified. That will be a help to them to know what did happen to their loved ones. There are still many that are still missing from both sides. It is up to us to help where we can to solve these mysteries.
> 
> I look forward to your posts in the future once you get back to England and can dig in your notes.
> 
> ...



When I return to England I will spend some time researching, it should be possible to find more information on this and the other local crashes.

I also worked on the dig for the Lancaster that crashed at Lane End while
trying to make an emergency landing at Booker I remember the tail wheel 
still had 40 psi in the tire when we dug it up and I hope the panel from that is still around somewhere.

I was still in high school when I was involved with the digs so its a wonder that I remember anything from that long ago.

A friend here owns a Cessna 173 so I am still able to fly a little with him
and spend some time around aircraft. The aircraft I dreamt of owning as
a kid has never been for sale (Wallis WA116 G-ARZB  )


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## fly boy (Mar 27, 2009)

welcome from wwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy cross the pond


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## Rocketeer (Mar 27, 2009)

Maximowitz said:


> Which unit did the 410 belong to? KG51?



She was with 16/KG2 and was a Me410A, she was shot down at 12:45am on the 23rd Feb 1944 by Site S7's 3.7in AA guns. She crashed into a hillside via a farmhouse roof. The farmhouse was occuppied by a young Ollie Reed (the actor) and his nanny. The aircraft exploded near Andridge Farm, Radnage, Buckinghamshire. Lt F Muller and Gefr. K H Borowski were killed. Ollie ran up to the crash the next day and was quite traumatised by what he saw. Recovered in 1971.


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## KD5PEX (Mar 27, 2009)

Rocketeer said:


> She was with 16/KG2 and was a Me410A, she was shot down at 12:45am on the 23rd Feb 1944 by Site S7's 3.7in AA guns. She crashed into a hillside via a farmhouse roof. The farmhouse was occuppied by a young Ollie Reed (the actor) and his nanny. The aircraft exploded near Andridge Farm, Radnage, Buckinghamshire. Lt F Muller and Gefr. K H Borowski were killed. Ollie ran up to the crash the next day and was quite traumatised by what he saw. Recovered in 1971.




Tony, I'm glad you have Peter Halliday's notes, if we had to rely on my 
memory we would be in sad shape.

I couldn't remember the name of the farm but my guess for the location is attached, the hillside was quite steep and the engine was about 8 feet below the surface, it was dug out with a backhoe and lots of chain, when it was pulled out and resting alongside the hole there was some concern that it may roll down the hill. there is a good chance that my black and white photo's of the engine coming out have survived in England.

The eye witness told us that the RAF removed the other less damaged engine a couple of days after the crash, the AA gunners had claimed one prop
and I remember at least 2 mangled prop blades coming out of the site, they were with your engine at Booker the last time I saw them.

I'll make an effort to give you some additional display material when I return.

Mike


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## Rocketeer (Mar 30, 2009)

cheers looking forward to the details old chap..


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## Maximowitz (Mar 30, 2009)

Thanks for the info and photos. Is a werknummer available for this 410?


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## mikamee14 (Apr 8, 2009)

Could you post a pic on here?


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## mikamee14 (Apr 8, 2009)

Where in England was it shot down


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## KD5PEX (Apr 12, 2009)

mikamee14 said:


> Where in England was it shot down



Check my earlier post for the details German air raid on Maidenhead

Mike


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## Tony Spencer (Mar 26, 2017)

Mic


KD5PEX said:


> Hi Tony
> 
> I remember it being at Booker, I was one of the ATC cadets who helped
> Peter Halliday and the Chiltern Historical Aircraft Preservation Group on a few of their digs, I camped out at the ME 410 crash site during the dig and collected a few small fragments for myself, I'm sure those fragments and maybe some pictures are at my mothers house in Marlow, when I get back to England I'll be in touch and pass on anything I have. When we pulled that DB603 out of the ground most of the supercharger was there but the magnesium casings turned to dust before our eyes.
> ...


Mick Oram? Your Dad used to be mayor?

I was in 1811 and on that dig too! 1971.


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## Tony Spencer (Mar 26, 2017)

There is a pic of the site, the dig, gravestone here

22/23.02.1944 16./KG2 Messerschmitt Me 410A Wnr. (unknown) Lt. MuellerLocation: Radnage, near High Wycombe, Bucks, England.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 26, 2017)

Tony Spencer said:


> Mic
> 
> Mick Oram? Your Dad used to be mayor?
> 
> I was in 1811 and on that dig too! 1971.



I don't think you will get much of a response from him. He has not been around in almost 4 years.


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## Wurger (Mar 26, 2017)

To be honest 8 years judging by the date of the last post here.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 26, 2017)

He checked in around 4 years ago but did not post.


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## Wurger (Mar 26, 2017)

I see.


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