# Who shot down the Red Baron?



## Pong (Jul 5, 2008)

90 years ago, the Manfred Von Richthofen was shot down in a mysterious death over Morlancourt ridge in France. Now the question remains, who really shot down the Baron, Captain Arthur "Roy" Brown, or Australian gunner Cedric Popkin?

-Pong


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## wilbur1 (Jul 5, 2008)

Im goin with Roy


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## lesofprimus (Jul 5, 2008)

The guy on the ground had a higher probability of a lethal hit than Brown did....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 5, 2008)

I'm going with Popkin but we will never know. It was probably a combination of both that brought him down.


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## starling (Jul 5, 2008)

i understood he was shot down an r.a.f.pilot called..rhys-davis.yours.starling.


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## Konigstiger205 (Jul 5, 2008)

The details of the death of the Red Baron are sketchy and not so clear but from what I read in wikipedia I'll go with Popkin.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 5, 2008)

Rhys-Davis was KIA 6 months before Richthofen was shot down...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 5, 2008)

starling said:


> i understood he was shot down an r.a.f.pilot called..rhys-davis.yours.starling.



How is that possible when Arthur Percival Foley Rhys Davids was killed on Oct. 27, 1917. The Red Baron was shot down and killed on 21 April 1918.

Thats about a 6 month time period.

Arthur Percival Foley Rhys Davids was credited with shooting down Werner Voss on 23 Sept. 1917 though...


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## starling (Jul 5, 2008)

must of been reading a different book. .or maybe the valium is kicking in. .


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 5, 2008)

You probably got Richtofen confused with Voss. Davids did shoot down Voss in 1917.


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## slaterat (Jul 5, 2008)

The eye witness testimony is inconclusive and contradictory in the shooting down of the Red Baron. For many years there has certainly been a movement to discredit Brown. IMHO most of the physical evidence supports Brown downing the Red Baron.

Slaterat


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## Haztoys (Jul 5, 2008)

Anyone know what killed him as in was he hit in the head or heart or......?

I would "think" the round that killed him would not of been the same from ground and aircraft fire...???... I guess know one cared to look at that time ..

I have a real good old VHS tape on him .. I'll have to look at it again and see what it says..


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Jul 5, 2008)

They talk how the angle the bullet entered his body was not possible from Roy's position in his plane. But again, that could be bias agains't him, conspiracy theorists and all.


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## kool kitty89 (Jul 6, 2008)

He landed the plane intact before dying, right. (I remember hearin on a doccumentary that his plane was burned afterward but according to wikipedia it was picked apart for souvenirs)


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## magnocain (Jul 6, 2008)

Snoopy
It was probily a combination of things. Maybe he had a stroke caused by his head injury not long before. Maybe he was tired of fighting and shot himself.

By the way when is the Red Baron movie coming out in the US?


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## kool kitty89 (Jul 6, 2008)

> Snoopy







And here's what wikipedia has to say on it:


> After ninety years of controversy and contradictory hypotheses, exactly who fired the fatal shot remains uncertain.
> 
> The RAF credited Brown with shooting down the Red Baron. However, Richthofen died following an extremely serious and inevitably fatal chest wound from a single bullet, penetrating from the right armpit and resurfacing next to the left nipple. If this was from Brown's guns, Richthofen simply could not have continued his pursuit of May for as long as he did.[12] Brown himself never spoke much about what happened that day, claiming "There is no point in me commenting, as the evidence is already out there".
> 
> ...



Note W. J. "Snowy" Evans and Robert Buie of the 53rd Battery, 14th Field Artillery Brigade, Royal Australian Artillery are also mentioned.

also NOVA | Who Killed the Red Baron? | PBS


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## Njaco (Jul 6, 2008)

I watched that docu...it was informative. Kinda like CSI: Richtohfen.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 6, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> He landed the plane intact before dying, right. (I remember hearin on a doccumentary that his plane was burned afterward but according to wikipedia it was picked apart for souvenirs)



Parts of his aircraft are in England and Canada.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 6, 2008)

There's also remains of his aircraft in Australia


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## Bigxiko (Jul 6, 2008)

i believe it was Sergeant Cedric Popkin


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## CharlesBronson (Jul 6, 2008)

The angle of entry and exit of the 7,7 mm bullet in Von Richthofen body clearly indicated that the fatal shot could never being delivered by Brown or any airborne gun.


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## v2 (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm going with Roy....


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## timshatz (Jul 7, 2008)

I kinda wax and wane back and forth on this one. I originially thought it was Brown when I was younger. Then heard the evidence that a ground gunner did it. However, the more I looked at it, the more I believed the later evidence was somewhat skewed. All of it came to light long after the war from various sources, many first hand but some second. The ground shot arguement is benefited by most of the believers not being there at the time. 

The arguement on the angle of the bullet strike seems to say it was ground fire. But a pilot turning around to look back (in a slight bank to the left- which my understanding of a triplane and it's quirky flying chracteristics is very common) would give you the same bullet wound as somebody shooting from the ground at an upward angle. And Brown attacked from the back right quadrent (at least he did from what I've read). The angle of the wound used to be considered final testimate for the ground shot, now I am less sure. 

Futher, the time of flight after the hit and Brown's distance away when it happened are both up to conjecture. Some things in the whole story I do not know the answer to:

1. Brown made a slashing attack from the right to the left, firing at the triplane and then....what? Did he fly away leaving the Triplane on May's tail? According to the ground fire arguement, he flew away and they shot the Barron down a minute or so later. Why would Brown do that? It makes no sense. Only if he fired, the Triplane broke away from May and then settle to the ground, does it work. Then, there is no reason for Brown to fire again as the Triplane was going down. 

2. The math of hitting a target moving 100mph at 600 yds with a single Vickers gun is lousy when compared to hitting the same target from behind right with two guns at less than 100 yds. 


In this case, I think Occam's Razor applies. The simplest answer is probably the right one.


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## KrazyKraut (Jul 7, 2008)

It would be interesting to know how many bullets struck his plane and where the impacts were. Both theories have their points, so far the AAA theory seems most simple and plausible to me.


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## pbfoot (Jul 7, 2008)

The show on PBS made a compelling argument for Popkin but I don't know how they can be so sure as those aircraft were very flighty and I'm sure he wasn't flying straight and level . Brown as far as I know did not claim him but was given the kill by the powers to be


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 7, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> Brown as far as I know did not claim him but was given the kill by the powers to be



Yep - Because that very week the RFC became the RAF - they needed the press!!!!


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## slaterat (Jul 7, 2008)

Actually Brown did put in a claim. In any fair assessment of air to air claims, Brown gets credit. He dove to the attack, he fired a long burst, he observed strikes on the ea , including the pilot slumping over in his seat. He disengaged when they got too close to the ground, pulled up and and observed the ea crashing.



> Yep - Because that very week the RFC became the RAF - they needed the press!!!!



False, Brown was never used as a propaganda tool. He wasn't even withdrawn from combat until he crashed his own plane two weeks after the downing of Richthofen. After recuperating in England he was to suffer a further crash that effectively terminated his combat career. 

Throughout his life Brown was a class act never bragging or even talking about the death of Richthofen. Oddly enough, people would later use this against Brown to push forward the idea that the claim was somehow hollow. In reality, in his personal diary Brown was absolutely convinced that he had killed the Red Baron. Physically Brown wasn't in any better condition than Richthofen at the time , and he felt a lot of empathy for his deceased opponant. Unlike a lot of fighter pilots Brown wasn't a glory seeker. He did his job as best he could and tried to always protect the inexperianced pilots of his unit. This was in fact exactly what he was doing when he shot down Richthofen, flying to the aid of rookie Canadian pilot Wilfred May who came very close to being number 81.

No one can be absolutely sure who fired the fatal bullet. There is a bullet hole through the backside of the Red Barons seat, its in a museum here in Canada. Brown was in the best position by far to make that shot. All the theories about bullet trajectories entry/exit wounds are just that , theories. Wilfred May was performing violent un co-ordinated manoeuvres to try to throw off the Barons attack. Eye witness testimony is contradictory as to how long the Red Baron was in the air after Brown fired. No internal autopsy was performed, it cannot be said for certain that his heart was pierced. His ability to keep his plane in the air and how long it was in the air remain in question.

Brown got the credit but it may have been fate, more than anything, that caught up with him that day.

Slaterat


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## smg (Jul 8, 2008)

the red baron was shotdown by a british riflemen that got lokey and never got the kill it eas a one in a million shot


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 8, 2008)

slaterat said:


> False, Brown was never used as a propaganda tool. He wasn't even withdrawn from combat until he crashed his own plane two weeks after the downing of Richthofen. After recuperating in England he was to suffer a further crash that effectively terminated his combat career.


One of the first books written on this subject in 1968 by P.J. Carisella and James W. Ryan mentions the argument with the newly established RAF and the Australian ground unit who also claimed to have shot down Richthofen. Brown did claim the triplane and it was eventually awarded to him. he was not used as a propaganda tool but the RAF did get press in the weeks after the red baron was killed.

_"On the morning of the 22nd of April, No.3 Sqn Australian Flying Corps withdrew their claim as it was determined the combat between the squadron's RE8s and Richthofen's Flying Circus was too early to be the decisive combat. At about the same time the recording officer in No.209 Sqn Royal Air Force retyped Browns Combat In The Air Report. Brown and his squadron commander both signed it. Major Butler added to the report, "One Decisive". 

In the afternoon of the 22nd Rittmeister Manfred von Richthofen was buried with full military honours by No.3 Squadron Australian Flying Corps. On the 23rd a Royal Air Force aircraft dropped photographs of the grave over the German lines so that the Luftstreitkrafte would know of the Red Barons grave and that he had been buried with the respect due their greatest Ace. 

*Royal Air Force Headquarters decided to go ahead with full support for Browns claim even though they were aware of the first two medical examinations which suggested ground fire was the cause of Richthofen's demise. The justification was partly decided on the basis of morale as the Royal Air Force had suffered considerably in the previous months. It is believed that Royal Air Force HQ told the NO.209 Squadron pilots not to mention the matter to anyone. Until their deaths, the No.209 Squadron pilots recounting of the events followed the Royal Air Forces version*." _

Who Killed The Red Baron? || kuro5hin.org

An interesting site...


ANZACS-RED-BARON


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## timshatz (Jul 8, 2008)

I had read somewhere the Brown was taken out of combat as a result of ulcers. Anyone else read that? Slat notes he crashed a couple of weeks after MVR was shot down and I've read he didn't last in combat but a few weeks after the fight with MVR. 

Anybody got any more info on that? Did he crash AND have ulcers?


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 8, 2008)

Here's Wiki's take - it seems he was ill a year earlier..

Roy Brown (pilot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


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## timshatz (Jul 8, 2008)

Good read Flyboy.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Jul 8, 2008)

The Red Baron was ill too. He was having terrible headaches from an earlier wound to the head. 

Some people have wondered if it even affected his judgement on that fateful day, because the way he chased Roy Brown's (nephew?) was rather uncharacteristic of him, allowing himself to be drawn close to the ground, and prolonging a fight by chasing down an enemy fighter. For one, he even had Roy on his tail. 

The Baron's motto was a quick kill, fly in quickly, possibly from above, and get out fast.

Erich Hartmann followed that rule a lot too.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 9, 2008)

Wop May was not Brown's nephew, but they did know each other. May chased Wolfram von Richthofen (Manfred's cousin) who was also a green pilot - when the baron saw this he began chase and the rest is history.


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## eddie_brunette (Jul 9, 2008)

I would say both

edd


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## timshatz (Jul 9, 2008)

Now this thing is starting to bug me! Spent about an hour last night kicking it around in my head. Here are the odd points I came up with.

1. Bullet hole in the seat. First time I've heard of it. If so, it could prove direction of fire. Anybody know if there is a picture of it online.

2. If Brown did not kill MVR, why did he fly away (point already brought up)? He said in his combat report that he fired and saw the pilot slump in the cockpit....is this report available online?

3. MVR is attacked from behind and doesn't react to it? Guy was the Pro of WW1 air fighting and he allows somebody to shoot up his airplane (again, Brown's report- wish we could see it) and flies on like nothing happened? Seems very odd. 

4. The round that kills MVR is through the heart. From what I've read, he would've been alive for no more than 30 seconds from the shot hitting him. Yet witnesses say they made it to the cockpit of his aircraft, pulled him out and he said something in German and died. If that were the case, he would've had to have crash landed within 100 yards of the witnesses at the max for them to get there in time and even that is stretching it. 

Like I said, all odd stuff I'm just trying to figure out this, that and the other thing. Trying to get some kind of lineal progression to the thing and right now don't.

If you look at the stories told by the witnesses on the ground and in the air, two different aircraft were shot down. 

In the air, it is a quick, slashing attack on a Triplane on the tail of a Camel, shorly thereafter the plane banks and crash lands. If you take it from the ground (getting this one from Unsolved History), MVR has banked away from the Camel and is flying back towards his lines (with Brown nowhere to be seen) when he turns, dives and crash lands.


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## slaterat (Jul 9, 2008)

It is very confusing, especially the more you read and think about it. So many different versions of what happened. It demonstrates that eye witness testimony just isn't very accurrate.

Here's a couple more links. One is a website devoted to Wop May that has a picture of the seat; and to my surprise the bullet hole(s) are a myth. They are actually damaged mounting holes. I'm gonna have to have a rum and coke to get over this one.

[link]http//:WopArticleLayout[/link]

The second link is a website on Canadian fighter pilots with some good info on Roy Brown including a brief combat report, and picture of the damaged tri-plane

[link]http//:Arthur Roy Brown[/link]

There used to be another site that had some pages from Browns diary but it appears to be defunct. There's also a new biography about Brown that was released last November but its sold out. I'll get one asap.

Slaterat , getting my drink now....


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## Njaco (Jul 10, 2008)

Tim, if you get a chance, check out that show that koolkitty posted. I saw it on PBS and it was pretty informative with photos of his wounds and such. Even went to the exact area with I believe a laser and showed how it possibly was done.


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## timshatz (Jul 10, 2008)

Njaco said:


> Tim, if you get a chance, check out that show that koolkitty posted. I saw it on PBS and it was pretty informative with photos of his wounds and such. Even went to the exact area with I believe a laser and showed how it possibly was done.



Njaco, saw the show. Actually, it was one of two shows that I've seen. One was a NOVA on PBS and the other was Unsolved History. Both were pretty good, if you believed he was shot down from the ground. Saw the one with the laser, think that was Unsolved History. 

My concern about both shows was the need (seemingly common these days) to go against the established line. It tends to negate evidence that doesn't support the premise of the show.

Still, doesn't mean either show was wrong, just seemed slanted.


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## timshatz (Jul 10, 2008)

slaterat said:


> [link]http//:Arthur Roy Brown[/link]
> ....



Ok, now to make things even more confusing, this is what I read from one of Slat's links:

"Signed report of 3 Sqn., A.F.C. Eqpt. Officer, is present (N.J. Warenford). He arrived at site at 2 p.m. when machine was being shelled by H.E., body still in wreckage rope was fastened around body"

According to this report, MVR was still in the aircraft after several hours and the story of the guy pulling him out and hearing him say something in German is...questionable?

Man, seems like everyone has a hand in this story. 

Mix me a drink too Slat, there are just too many people associated with this one anymore to get an accurate line on it.


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## B-17engineer (Jul 19, 2008)

I am going other. I believe a Lewis gun or some other machine gun shot him down. There were about 5-6 Lewis guns when "The Red Baron" was chasing a British plane. The show I watch stated 3 Lewis guns had a clear shot and they all took it. Hitting Richtoven in the side. I forgot the Names of all three gunners...I'll look it up


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## KrazyKraut (Jul 23, 2008)

timshatz said:


> 4. The round that kills MVR is through the heart. From what I've read, he would've been alive for no more than 30 seconds from the shot hitting him. Yet witnesses say they made it to the cockpit of his aircraft, pulled him out and he said something in German and died.


Do you refer to the wikipedia article where it is said he mumbled "kaputt" and died? Because that seems made up to me: Kaputt is such a stereotypical and non-fitting word it just seems too much like something someone thought up to tell a story.

I just read on the page FLYBOYJ posted that Brown's first official report said "indicisive", which was later changed when they found out MvR died. Makes you wonder...


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## timshatz (Jul 23, 2008)

One other thing comes to mind about the ground fire. Were these guys particularly good at aircraft recognition? Seems to me that most of these guys just shot at anything that flew. They might just as well been shooting at the Camels as the Fokker. 

Agree with you KK, this thing is all over the place. 

If I had to guess, I would say there were a good dozen guns going in all directions on the ground. Who hit what or even knew what they were shooting at?


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 3, 2008)

> Who hit what or even knew what they were shooting at?



Actually it wasnt so difficult to recognize the Richthofen s plane, all red even the center wheels, at 15 m from the ground and 130 or 140 km.....


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## merlin (Aug 30, 2008)

I saw the programme about it on TV last night. Compelling viewing, well presented, and more importantly - compelling evidence - from those who were there.
It was interesting that Brown did not give evidence at the enquiry, taking the view that having been credited with the enemy aircraft that was as 'official' as it needed to be. But to participate, would have opened up his recollections to analysis (such as it was then), which may have compremised his 'score' - he couldn't take the risk.
Interesting too, correspondence that came to light about eye-witnesnesses who got to Richtofen after he landed. Therefore, knowing he was alive when he landed with the injuries he received, they could tell the combat with Brown (this was seen) was too early for time-of-death. Hence, it would be ground fire (it would have been easier if different ammunition was used - but it wasn't), and Popkin's second burst fitted being in the right place (angle of bullet entry) and right time ( of death).
So it is Popkin.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Aug 30, 2008)

I dunno, I still wonder if Brown deserves some credit. he might have put a couple of good holes in the Barons plane.


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## P-Popsie (Oct 27, 2008)

smg said:


> the red baron was shotdown by a british riflemen that got lokey and never got the kill it eas a one in a million shot


Australian old chap all three canidates for firing the fatal ground shot are from OZ.

While were on the subject it would seem most likely that the shot came from ground fire even if you take the numerical probability factor of Several Lewis and Vickers Machine guns firing from a stationary position versus two Lewis Machine guns firing from a radically weaving platform.

From conversations i have had in recent years and from the few doco's available on the subject i beleive as most of my countrymen do that the baron was dropped by an Australian gunner most likely popkin. Good idea for a thread though.


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## ubernuton (May 29, 2009)

i did


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## FLYBOYJ (May 29, 2009)

ubernuton said:


> i did


Geez, you did, now watch this....


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (May 29, 2009)

Good job FlyboyJ! Thanks for cleaning up the thread.


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