# Identifying new WW2 wreck off Pt Loma, San Diego



## beldridg (May 3, 2022)

Hi,

I'm an avid wreck diver in Southern California (see Wrecked in my rEvo). 

We located a new airplane wreck site last week and we are going through the process of identifying it. Step 1 is usually figuring out the type of airplane and step 2 is identifying the specific plane. In this case, I don't think we're going to be able to find a bureau number given the state of the wreck site.

We think we know what type of plane it is, but I wanted to get some additional thoughts from the experts on this forum. I don't want to bias anybody's opinion so I won't post what type of plane we think it is.

Key characteristics (with photos below) are: 14 cylinder radial engine, two oil coolers, 50 cal (I think) gun in the wing. In addition, we think it is a carrier based airplane due to a crack in the port wing that looks like where the wing would fold. I also included a picture of the wheel which is sticking down from the port side wing.

Pictures are below. I have more if anybody needs additional photos but the entire back of the fuselage behind the pilot's seat is gone (we think it might be nearby).

Thanks,

Brett Eldridge

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## FLYBOYJ (May 3, 2022)

I'm thinking R2600 for starters. 50 cal in the wing? Starting to sound like a TBM/ TBF


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## beldridg (May 3, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> I'm thinking R2600 for starters. 50 cal in the wing? Starting to sound like a TBM/ TBF



Thanks. That is the current thinking we have as well but I'm also aware of confirmation bias so I'm trying to stress test our theory.

We believe it is a dash-1 version due to the two oil coolers.

I don't think it is, but what if the engine is a R-1830 Twin Wasp (also 14 cylinders) and not a R-2600? By looking at pictures, I think the rows of the pistons on the R-1830 are closer together, but hard to tell.

Was there anything with a R-1830 with a three-bladed prop that would match?

I did forget to mention also that the prop is three blades (as seen in a couple of the photos).

Regards,

- brett


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## FLYBOYJ (May 3, 2022)

beldridg said:


> Thanks. That is the current thinking we have as well but I'm also aware of confirmation bias so I'm trying to stress test our theory.
> 
> We believe it is a dash-1 version due to the two oil coolers.
> 
> ...


The reason why I'm thinking it's an R-2600 is because of the 2 oil coolers. I looked at a photo of an R-2600, I see similarities. 









Then you mention the single .50 cal in the wing - I'm not aware of any other aircraft with a single wing mounted .50.






And then the wing "crack"










Note the small strut on both photos

Let me know your thoughts - this is pretty fascinating!

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## FLYBOYJ (May 4, 2022)

Did some more digging...

The Vought SB2U did have a single .50 in the RIGHT wing, folding wings and a 14 cylinder R-1535


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## beldridg (May 4, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Did some more digging...
> 
> The Vought SB2U did have a single .50 in the RIGHT wing, folding wings and a 14 cylinder R-1535
> 
> View attachment 666807



Good find, but I think they had a two-bladed prop? This wreck definitely had three blades.

- brett

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## beldridg (May 4, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> The reason why I'm thinking it's an R-2600 is because of the 2 oil coolers. I looked at a photo of an R-2600, I see similarities.
> 
> View attachment 666802
> View attachment 666803
> ...



Good detective work. I hadn't noticed the small struts.

In terms of the armament, I know for sure the starboard wing on the wreck had that gun. 

On the port wing, I didn't check specifically. In the picture above where you see the crack, you can see a "pipe" or "barrel" sticking out from the wing that I'm assuming is the front of the barrel from a gun but I haven't traced it back.

I also think the TBM/F had the wing guns on the "outside" of where the wing folded (?) so that would also make sense.

- brett


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## mjfur (May 4, 2022)

In the first photo, does this aircraft have a spinner on the prop? If so, it helps limit the possibilities.
Additionally, the guns on a TBM do not protrude from the wing. Perhaps an early SB2C?


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## beldridg (May 4, 2022)

mjfur said:


> In the first photo, does this aircraft have a spinner on the prop? If so, it helps limit the possibilities.
> Additionally, the guns on a TBM do not protrude from the wing.



How can I tell if there is a spinner? I can try to post more pictures later today (I'm out diving all day today). I might dive that target again. If so, I'll try to take some close ups of the front of the prop.

- brett


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## FLYBOYJ (May 4, 2022)

mjfur said:


> In the first photo, does this aircraft have a spinner on the prop? If so, it helps limit the possibilities.
> Additionally, *the guns on a TBM do not protrude from the wing.*


They don't but remember, this was a crash and it's possible the gun was pushed forward


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## FLYBOYJ (May 4, 2022)

beldridg said:


> How can I tell if there is a spinner? I can try to post more pictures later today (I'm out diving all day today). I might dive that target again. If so, I'll try to take some close ups of the front of the prop.
> 
> - brett


There's a lot of growth around the prop hub, I don't think there's a spinner on there. The only way to know for sure is to remove the growth.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 4, 2022)

beldridg said:


> Good find, but I think they had a two-bladed prop? This wreck definitely had three blades.
> 
> - brett


Yes - you're correct so we can eliminate a Vindicator


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## mjfur (May 4, 2022)

Where was the wheel position in relation to the wing? Did it fold inboard (SB2C) or outboard (TBF/TBM) or backwards (TBD)?
I'm also trying to envision how the port wing wheel could be hanging down on a TBM without any gear strut visible.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 4, 2022)

mjfur said:


> Where was the wheel position in relation to the wing? Did it fold inboard (SB2C) or outboard (TBF/TBM) or backwards (TBD)?
> I'm also trying to envision how the port wing wheel could be hanging down on a TBM without any gear strut visible.


SB2C did not have internal wing guns, when mounted, 2 .50s in each wing in a pod

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## FLYBOYJ (May 4, 2022)

Info!






TBM Avenger


TBM Avenger found off San Diego



www.ub88.org





PURPOSE OF FLIGHT: Night Radar Bombing
MANEUVER INVOLVED: Low frequency range approach
TYPE OF ACCIDENT: Collision - Water
*PLACE: Approximately two and one-half miles (2 1/2) miles west of Pt. Loma, Cal.*
SPEED ON IMPACT: 110 knots
METHOD OF EXIT: Open canopy (cockpit)
TIME IN WATER: 4 hours in life raft, 5 minutes in water
METHOD OF RESCUE: Pilot picked up by civilian ship

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## beldridg (May 4, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> They don't but remember, this was a crash and it's possible the gun was pushed forward



Yes, this is a distinct possibility. If you look at the photo, you can even see the area it could have been dislodged from. 

Brett



FLYBOYJ said:


> Info!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, we know about that one and I’ve dove it. It is on about 250 feet of water and is a different wreck. The one we found is somewhat nearby but in 150 feet of water. 

Brett

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## beldridg (May 4, 2022)

mjfur said:


> Where was the wheel position in relation to the wing? Did it fold inboard (SB2C) or outboard (TBF/TBM) or backwards (TBD)?
> I'm also trying to envision how the port wing wheel could be hanging down on a TBM without any gear strut visible.



I’m pretty sure it is NOT backwards and from our initial photos, it seems like it is outward. Below is another picture that shows what I think is a wheel well on the outboard side. 


Brett


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## SaparotRob (May 4, 2022)

I love these threads!
Thanks, beldridj.

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## mjfur (May 4, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> SB2C did not have internal wing guns, when mounted, 2 .50s in each wing in a pod



SB2C-1C SB2C-1 with two 20 mm (0.79 in) wing-mounted cannons and hydraulically operated flaps, 778 built. First to see combat.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 4, 2022)

mjfur said:


> SB2C-1C SB2C-1 with two 20 mm (0.79 in) wing-mounted cannons and hydraulically operated flaps, 778 built. First to see combat.


From wiki - SB2C-4


*Guns:***2 × 20 mm (0.787 in) AN/M2 cannon in the wings
2 × 0.30 in (7.6 mm) M1919 Browning machine guns in the rear cockpit
4 X 0.50 in (13 mm) M2 Browning machine guns, two each in gunpods mounted on underwing hardpoints (optional)

Still doesn't seem to match the wreck.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 4, 2022)

beldridg said:


> Yeah, we know about that one and I’ve dove it. It is on about 250 feet of water and is a different wreck. The one we found is somewhat nearby but in 150 feet of water.
> 
> Brett


How far is that wreck from the one you discovered? Did you notice a debris field around your wreck?


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## beldridg (May 4, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> How far is that wreck from the one you discovered? Did you notice a debris field around your wreck?



It is far enough way to not be related. I would guess 3-5 nautical miles. 

There really isn't a debris field. We believe that tail section might be nearby but we haven't dove it yet.

Here is a picture of the nose of the "other" TBM:



- brett

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## beldridg (May 4, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> There's a lot of growth around the prop hub, I don't think there's a spinner on there. The only way to know for sure is to remove the growth.



Here is a picture from the dive today after I scrubbed the front of the prop with a brush. 






- brett

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## FLYBOYJ (May 5, 2022)

Still hard to say but my guess there's no spinner on there. How often do you dive there?


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## beldridg (May 5, 2022)

Here are four more pictures of the wheel area. Note that the lens I use tends to add some curvature to the photos so straight lines are a little bowed (it isn't a fisheye but it also isn't rectilinear.

I'm working on a photogrammetry model and will try to upload that later.













- brett


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## beldridg (May 5, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Still hard to say but my guess there's no spinner on there. How often do you dive there?



I'm wondering if it came off or rotted off or ??? It is just so hard to tell with wrecks in salt water that have been there for 80-ish years.

We did a second dive on it yesterday. We don't currently have a date to do another. Is there a specific area of the plane you want to see? I've got about 400-500 photos from the two dives.

- brett


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## FLYBOYJ (May 5, 2022)

beldridg said:


> I'm wondering if it came off or rotted off or ??? It is just so hard to tell with wrecks in salt water that have been there for 80-ish years.
> 
> We did a second dive on it yesterday. We don't currently have a date to do another. Is there a specific area of the plane you want to see? I've got about 400-500 photos from the two dives.
> 
> - brett


Hi Brett - 

Agree, hard to tell what's going on and I'm sure the salt water rotted much of this. How much of the fuselage is in tact? Do you have a shot showing the entire wing? 

Joe


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## beldridg (May 5, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Hi Brett -
> 
> Agree, hard to tell what's going on and I'm sure the salt water rotted much of this. How much of the fuselage is in tact? Do you have a shot showing the entire wing?
> 
> Joe



Yes and no. 

The visibility has been literally 5-10 feet so getting a shot of the whole wing is impossible. It is also really dark due to all the particulate matter in the water blocking the sun and down at 150 feet. However, I have been working on building a photogrammetry model. I can't get everything to align in a single model, but I do have two models which show the starboard side and port side. I've pasted screenshots of the models below.

Important to note: The control surfaces from the wings are gone so they look less "wide" than they normally would. You can see on the starboard side wing that it extends back a little bit close to the fuselage. Also note the interesting "square hole" on the starboard side close to the fuselage. Maybe this is another clue?

The first screenshot shows the port wing on the left with all the pink strawberry anemones and the second screenshot shows the starboard wing on the right and you can see the 50 cal gun and some of the engine in front.

I'm working on building a better model but I won't be able to spend more time on it until Sunday.









- brett


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## FLYBOYJ (May 5, 2022)

OK - very cool! Now some thing that hit me as soon as I saw the lower photo -






This looks like the outline of the wing -






Here's a cut-away - 






Any chance of a second or third gun within the wings?

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## FLYBOYJ (May 5, 2022)

This portion has my attention as well...


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## FLYBOYJ (May 5, 2022)

OK - another possible aircraft - T-28 !


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## FLYBOYJ (May 5, 2022)




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## FLYBOYJ (May 5, 2022)

Sorry for all these posts - here's a site that restored a T-28, take a good look at the wings!






RARE BIRD AVIATION


AIRCRAFT RESTORATION, DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION, REPAIR AND MAINTENANCE, HISTORIC FLIGHT OPERATION in Austria, Europe. Classic airplanes restoration, covering all historic airplanes during the period of 1920 - 1930 - 1940. Aircraft for sale! Historische Flugzeug Restaurationen aus den Anfängen der...



www.rarebird.eu





The only disconnect I see is the engine - the T-28 had a singe row radial. Are we sure this wreck's engine is a twin-row radial?


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## beldridg (May 5, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> OK - very cool! Now some thing that hit me as soon as I saw the lower photo -
> 
> View attachment 667038
> 
> ...



I don't think so but I also wouldn't rule it out completely. I've reviewed a number of the pictures and I don't see any indication of it. What airplane are you thinking?

What direction does the landing gear / wheel fold in that picture?

Also, I'm pretty sure what the wreck airplane is, it is more than a single seater.

- brett


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## beldridg (May 5, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Sorry for all these posts - here's a site that restored a T-28, take a good look at the wings!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



100% sure. See photo below. 

I think another really key clue is that there are two oil coolers.

- brett


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## FLYBOYJ (May 5, 2022)

beldridg said:


> I don't think so but I also wouldn't rule it out completely. I've reviewed a number of the pictures and I don't see any indication of it. What airplane are you thinking?
> 
> What direction does the landing gear / wheel fold in that picture?
> 
> ...


Well the wing looked like one from a P-51 but the radial engine rules that out

The wing also looks like one from a T-28 trojan. The later versions had a 3 bladed prop.

The curve ball is the .50 cal in the wing - the only US aircraft I can find configured like this is a TBF Avenger

The twin row engine would fit the Avenger description

What's your thoughts?


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## beldridg (May 5, 2022)

Here is a link to viewing the "interim" 3D photogrammetry model:









Unknown Airplane - Pt Loma - 3D model by Brett Eldridge (@beldridg)


Unknown Airplane - Pt Loma - 3D model by Brett Eldridge (@beldridg)




sketchfab.com





- brett

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## SaparotRob (May 5, 2022)

beldridg said:


> Here is a link to viewing the "interim" 3D photogrammetry model:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Way cool!


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## FLYBOYJ (May 5, 2022)

The Engine Mount in the 3D - looks like TBF/ TBM!


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## FLYBOYJ (May 5, 2022)

oil coolers!


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## beldridg (May 5, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Well the wing looked like one from a P-51 but the radial engine rules that out
> 
> The wing also looks like one from a T-28 trojan. The later versions had a 3 bladed prop.
> 
> ...



Our current thought is still a TBM/F-1.

- brett

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## beldridg (May 5, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> oil coolers!
> 
> View attachment 667061



Yes, this was also a diagram we saw that gave us more confidence in the TBM/F-1. It also helps differentiate the dash-1 from the dash-3.

Regards,

- brett


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## beldridg (May 5, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> Way cool!



Thanks. It isn't a great model, I'm trying to make a better one but the visibility was really bad on both dives and building a model from photos in those conditions is challenging.

- brett

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## FLYBOYJ (May 5, 2022)

beldridg said:


> Our current thought is still a TBM/F-1.
> 
> - brett


After beating up the NA P-51 or T-28 theory, I agree, especially when seeing the wreck in 3D (great stuff). The engine mount really gives it away.


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## beldridg (May 5, 2022)

Here is a "better" model of just the starboard wing. Note the gun, the square hole in the wing near the root. Also the exposed ribs might offer a clue. There is also an interesting "rod" sticking out onto the wing from the cockpit area.









Unknown Airplane (stbd side) - Pt Loma - 3D model by Brett Eldridge (@beldridg)


Unknown Airplane (stbd side) - Pt Loma - 3D model by Brett Eldridge (@beldridg)




sketchfab.com





- brett


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## Capt. Vick (May 5, 2022)

There is a "scalloped" section missing from the top rear of the wing near the fuselage that appears to be the same shape that folds up and forward on the top of the outer wing section. This says to me Grumman unique wing folding geometry.

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## FLYBOYJ (May 5, 2022)

Capt. Vick said:


> There is a "scalloped" section missing from the top rear of the wing near the fuselage that appears to be the same shape that folds up and forward on the top of the outer wing section. This says to me Grumman unique wing folding geometry.


Yep - finally found a pic with the wing partially folded


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## FLYBOYJ (May 5, 2022)

Now the big question - when did it crash?

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## SaparotRob (May 5, 2022)

This Forum is amazing.

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## beldridg (May 5, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Now the big question - when did it crash?



We have 2-3 candidate airplanes based on research (war diaries, accident reports, etc). We are trying to narrow it down. However, I kinda doubt we will ever get 100% certainty based on the current evidence. We will likely need a bureau number (or equivalent) and given the state of the wreck, it is unlikely to find it.

- brett

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## ARTESH (May 5, 2022)

I hope the crew were able to scape / eject and saved!

I did not see you mention to find bones / remains.

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## Snautzer01 (May 5, 2022)

beldridg said:


> We have 2-3 candidate airplanes based on research (war diaries, accident reports, etc). We are trying to narrow it down. However, I kinda doubt we will ever get 100% certainty based on the current evidence. We will likely need a bureau number (or equivalent) and given the state of the wreck, it is unlikely to find it.
> 
> - brett


Well post the candidates sjeez


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## beldridg (May 5, 2022)

Snautzer01 said:


> Well post the candidates sjeez



We just wanted to get one last accident report which we got this afternoon and it matches the wreck in terms of location and situation (prop not bent - likely a stall). 

I will finish my blog post with all the details, photos, etc and post it on Monday when I get back from my trip. 

I’ll post the link here once the story is posted. 

Thanks everybody for your help. 

We have found other airplanes and even a helicopter in the San Diego area and have others we are hunting down and hope to find and identify. 

Regards,

Brett

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## beldridg (May 5, 2022)

ARTESH said:


> I hope the crew were able to scape / eject and saved!
> 
> I did not see you mention to find bones / remains.



He did get out and was rescued. Stay tuned for the whole story in a few days. 

Brett

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## FLYBOYJ (May 5, 2022)

Glad we can help Brett!


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## Greg Boeser (May 5, 2022)

For the whole thread.

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## drgondog (May 7, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Sorry for all these posts - here's a site that restored a T-28, take a good look at the wings!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The T-28s modified for Air America/VNAF had R-2800s

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## beldridg (May 9, 2022)

As promised, here is a link to the full article with all of the pictures and links to two different photogrammetry models. 

We have more projects in the works so stay tuned. 

If you sign up for the blog, you will get an email whenever I post (it is usually only 2-3 posts/month). I have a trip to Vis, Croatia and then Malta coming up so hopefully I'll be posting some more cool underwater airplane wreck photos. 

Enjoy and feedback is welcome:









“Full Stall Landing” — TBF-1C Avenger (Point Loma — 150 fsw)


Background We believe that we have located, dived and identified a new WW II TBF-1C Avenger (Bureau Number 24272) airplane wreck in Southern California off of Point Loma. A couple months ago, Tyler…




wreckedinmyrevo.com





Regards,

- brett

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## mjfur (May 9, 2022)

drgondog said:


> The T-28s modified for Air America/VNAF had R-2800s


Huh?


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## drgondog (May 9, 2022)

mjfur said:


> Huh?


Heresay. My father ran American Airmotive in the early 60s after retiring from USAF. They bid on the conversion to 1820's and I heard that Pacific Airmotive converted two T-28B, up-engined to R-2800 for French/VNAF trials. Have no more details or facts.

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## davparlr (May 13, 2022)

How about a Vultee A-31 Vengeance. It has a strange shape wing that might fit.


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## Kiwiwreckdiver (Jul 5, 2022)

congrats on the find, I look for ww2 aircraft wrecks where ever im on holidays, but usually in clean waters. youve got to deal with the cold, bad viz and Sharks. well done


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## beldridg (Jul 5, 2022)

Kiwiwreckdiver said:


> congrats on the find, I look for ww2 aircraft wrecks where ever im on holidays, but usually in clean waters. youve got to deal with the cold, bad viz and Sharks. well done



Thanks! We recently also found an F8F Bearcat that is almost completely intact. I'm glad you send me this note. I was going to post about it to this forum but forgot. I'll create a separate post about it shortly.

- brett

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## Kiwiwreckdiver (Jul 5, 2022)

beldridg said:


> Thanks! We recently also found an F8F Bearcat that is almost completely intact. I'm glad you send me this note. I was going to post about it to this forum but forgot. I'll create a separate post about it shortly.
> 
> - brett


Bearcat is a rare bird, its a pitty salt water destroys the airframes , in many cases the only survivors of some types are in salt water

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## SaparotRob (Jul 5, 2022)

I would like to see a salvageable F2A is found.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Jul 5, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> I would like to see a salvageable F2A is found.



Right, so we can shoot it up

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## beldridg (Jul 5, 2022)

Kiwiwreckdiver said:


> Bearcat is a rare bird, its a pitty salt water destroys the airframes , in many cases the only survivors of some types are in salt water



Yes, agreed. In case you didn't see the other post I made, here is a link to the info about the F8F-1:









F8F-1 Bearcat (Point Loma, CA — 230 fsw)


Background We have located the wreck of a rare F8F-1 Bearcat airplane deep in the waters off of Point Loma, California. This post details the discovery of the wreck, identifying the type of airplan…




wreckedinmyrevo.com





- brett


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