# Casualties from Above.



## GT (May 9, 2005)

Update


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## Erich (May 9, 2005)

GT are we positive about the deaths of these folk ? It appears from the shrapnel holes that the rig might have been strafed ? The angle looks consistent to me from mg and possibly cannon rounds and not a scattering of haphazard AA debris.

My relatives were strafed by the way during operation Thunderclap in February 45 by P-51's..........

E ~


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## evangilder (May 9, 2005)

I don't think that anyone could get an accurate account of those types of casualties, GT. In some cases, explosions or fires can cause the bodies to be basically vaporized or just burned beyond recognition. If you did some digging about the number of missing soldiers in WWII whose bodies were never recovered, the numbers would surprise you. 

Civilian casualties are almost always estimates because people moved around to get away from battle scenes.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 9, 2005)

If there were any civilian friendly fire incidents during the Pearl Harbor attack, I think they would of been far and few. If someone was able to prove civilian friendly fire Pearl Harbor incidents today, I'm sure you would have dozens of lawyers in line attempting to sue on behalf of the families.

I've been to Hawaii numerous times, several times while in the Naval Reserves and had access to places where most civilians couldn't go. From what I could remember of the lay out of Pearl and Hickham, it would seem that any stray AA rounds would of stayed pretty close to the base. From what I understand, there wasn't much population around the bases in those days.

I would like to see the source of that photo or any other photo that claims Pearl Harbor friendly fire incidents.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 9, 2005)

I think it is a given that things like that happen. You can not stop civilian casualties no matter how hard you try, and I am sure that no matter where and by who civilians were ocassionaly strafed by aircraft. I know the Germans did it to Russian refugess fleeing the jugernaught and I am sure the Russians did it to German civilians too. I have heard of accounts of Japanese pilots doing it. It would not suprise me if the US and the British pilots did it on a lesser scale.


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## Anonymous (May 10, 2005)

I'm sure there were casualties from machine gun rounds that missed, and the Germans used a lot of cannon rounds w/o self-destruct fuses, those probably killed a fair number of civilians. Flak would probably be more likely to injure than to kill, but it certainly did kill a few.

Planes crashing into houses also killed people, even in the USA. My mom got in trouble for "telling lies" when she told her parents she saw a P-51 crash in California. Later, after she got her spanking, they found out that the plane had crashed into a house and killed several members of the family living there.

However, I doubt anyone kept records of such deaths/injuries in Europe, they were probably just accounted as killed by enemy air attack.

=S=

Lunatic


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2005)

I agree I dont think there were really an records of such things.

That really has to be a sucky way to die though, sleeping in your bed and then a Ju-88 comes falling through your roof.


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## GT (May 10, 2005)

Update


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2005)

GT said:


> It was not stafing that killed them.
> 
> They were 4 shipyard riggers were killed in their car on Judd Street en route to Pearl Harbor. The victims were John Adams and his father, Joseph Adams; their uncle, Joseph McCabe; and McCabe's nephew David Kahookele. A witness said: All of us were watching this Japanese plane fly over. And we found out later that Americans were shooting at that plane, and they didn't fuse one of their shells correctly. So instead of bursting in the air, it hit this car and blew up." it was 5" unfused shell that landed behind their car in Honolulu.
> 
> ...



Are these all "friendly fire" casualties?


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## GT (May 10, 2005)

Update


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2005)

GT said:


> Most of them according to some sources but you can read for youself on this link.
> 
> http://www.gonebutnotforgotten.homestead.com/CivilianStory.html
> 
> ...



That's really interesting, and the large amount of Japanese listed as well!


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## GT (May 11, 2005)

Update


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 11, 2005)

I can actually believe that about the friendly fire on ships. The anti aircraft gunners would lower there guns to water level trying to hit the low flying Japanese torpedo bombers and they very easily could have hit fellow sailors on other ships.


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## BombTaxi (May 11, 2005)

Ive been reading a book about the U-boat campaign off Cape Hatteras, and it records an incident where the destroyer USS Dickerson was fired upon by a merchantman. It was dark, and the gun crew apparently thought the four-piper was a U-boat. The destroyer's skipper, Lt. Commander John Reybold, and most of his watch were killed by a single 4" shell from the freighter Liberator

(for this account, see Homer H. Hickam Jr., 'Torpedo Junction', Bluejacket Books, (1996), ch. 8 ff .


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 12, 2005)

At times like this at the hight of the Battle of the Atlantic, the tensions were probably very high and in the dark I can see how that might happen to a scared merchantman. Due to the fact that U-Boots were known to operate that close to the US coast it would not surprise me if they did actually see a U-Boot but fired on the destroyer anyhow becuase they were confused about wearabouts.


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