# WW1 Tanks



## Alecras234 (Mar 5, 2020)

Hi my name's Ash and i'm interested in military history particularly WW1. I have David Fletcher's book called British battle tanks, The first world war. Do you recommend David Fletcher books or are there better books on ww1 tanks? I'm reading at the moment from the Number one Lincoln machine to Little Willie to the mk1 tank or Mother.


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## PFVA63 (Mar 5, 2020)

Hi,
From what I understand Mr. Fletcher is pretty well respected historian and tank authority, so his books would seem like would probably be a good place to start for learning about WWI armor.

David Fletcher (military historian) - Wikipedia

Pat

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## Alecras234 (Mar 8, 2020)

Hi is this book any good on tanks? i have had a quick look and it has 5 star reviews but the information about different tanks is different to David fletche books. I don't know how accurate this book is.


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## Alecras234 (Mar 8, 2020)

The book isn't detailed.  One bit of information that might be wrong is it says 49 mk1 tanks were sent to battle and 9 reached German lines. Another one is Little Willie was ordered in july 1915, My other book by David Fletcher says Little Willie was designed in August 1915.


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## Wurger (Mar 8, 2020)

Alec,
David John Fletcher is a British military historian specialising in the history of armoured warfare, particularly that of the United Kingdom. I would say that he is one of the well-known authors of books about tanks. Also he is one of the most experienced and well informed guys. So his books are really good. The differences in the info you posted above may be because of your wrong understanding of the text there.

For instance... 

"the work on Little Willie's predecessor was begun in July 1915. The Landship Committee started the work to meet The United Kingdom's requirement for a such vehicle."

So,the start of working on the first tank doesn't mean the vehicle was designed at that time. Just the Landship Committee tried to find the best project for the machine. 

And farther ...
"After several other projects where single and triple tracks had failed, on 22 July William Ashbee Tritton, director of the agricultural machinery company William Foster & Company of Lincoln, was given the contract to develop a "Tritton Machine" with two tracks. It had to make use of the track assemblies – lengthened tracks and suspension elements (seven road wheels instead of four) – purchased as fully built units from the Bullock Creeping Grip Tractor Company in Chicago."

And finally...
"on 11 August actual construction began. On 16 August Tritton decided to fit a wheeled tail to assist in steering. On 9 September the Number 1 Lincoln Machine, as the prototype was then known, made its first test run in the yard of the Wellington Foundry."

As you may see the details on the first tank are correct. Knowing the United Kingdom's requirement for the kind of the vehicle the Landship Committee started finding the techincal conceptions for a such machine in July 1915. . But only after the end of checking on all possible techincal solutions, the construction of the first prototype started in August 1915. In other words the first tank was designed in the autumn of 1915 but the Landship Committee was ordered to start wotking much ealier just in July 1915. when the United Kingdom's requirement was issued. So we can say the requirement is nothing more but the order of a tank.

Also the info about 49 Mk.I tanks that were sent to battle and 9 reached German lines. might be a result your interpretation of the text. But of course , the mistake or just typo while printing of the book could have happend. However I have read the same info somewhere in a couple of other books.
Here is the info I found in a book about Mark I tank..


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## Alecras234 (Mar 8, 2020)

Thank you for the info, the tank book is a general look at the history of different tanks without going into detail. Should i stick with David Fletcher books? The tank book that im not sure about has nice pictures and short facts which is what i want. But i want the correct information in facts.


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## Wurger (Mar 8, 2020)

IMHO you should stick with David Fletcher's books. These may be not too detailed but should be fine for you.


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## Alecras234 (Mar 8, 2020)

I have started a list of facts about the mk1 tank that i have picked out of the book. What do you think?

Designers - William Tritton, Walter Wilson

Daimler engine

2 six pounder guns

MK1 prototype ready - December 1915

MK1 demonstration to Landship Committee - January 1916

Army council MK1S ordered - 100


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## Wurger (Mar 8, 2020)

OK.


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## Reluctant Poster (Mar 8, 2020)

David Fletcher has a large number of videos you may find interesting. Here is one on the Mark 1

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## Wurger (Mar 8, 2020)




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## Alecras234 (Mar 12, 2020)

Hi a MK1 Tank demonstration was given at Hatfield Park in january 1916, was this demonstration in front of the Landships Committee or did that happen four weeks later when Kitchener was there?


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## Wurger (Mar 12, 2020)

Let's see what books say ...

"The full-size wooden model of the tank was presented to the War Office representatives at Wembley Park in London in September 1915. The final appearance was revealed at Fosters in December 1915. The completed vehicle was sent to the Hatfield Park, Hertfordshire for official trials. 
On 29 January 1916 the new machines gave the demonstartion of its capabilities in the grounds of Hatfield House. Four days later , on 2nd February 1916 , the show was repeated in front of a distinguished audience that included the Field Marshal Kitchener."

From Major General Sir Ernest Swinton's memories ...
" the 29th January 1916 was the first day of the demonstration and was for those, Civilian, Military and Naval, who had played a part in the invention and development of Landships. The main event over the same course took place on 2nd February 1916. This was the event at which Kitchener made his ‘pretty mechanical toy’ comment. Another demonstration for the King took place over the same course on 8th February 1916."

Actually it is not stated directly if the tank was presented to the entire Landships Committee fistly .
Although, Wilson, Tritton and Stern were members of the Committee , their participation in the event could be because of their direct involvement and control over the Mark I project rather than their belonging to or position/status in the Committee. There is known a couple of shots taken during the time. In one of them we can see Tritton, Wilson and Stern amoung the group gathered around the tank. 
The official presentation for diginitaries/ authorities started four days later ( but not 4 weeks later as you wrote above ) and we can assume, the Landships Committee could be there as well.

However the Gen. Swinton's recollections may indicate that the tank was presented to the Landships Committee ( and not only to them ) on the first day of the presentation. It might have happened because, according to him , the first day was just for all of these who were involved in the works on the tank. And the people from the committee were just these Civilian, Military and Naval, who had participated in the invention and development of the Mark I tank , weren't they?.
So ... to answer your question.. I would say yes the tank had been demonstrated in front of the Landships Committee before Kitchener saw it on the 2nd February 1916. .


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## nuuumannn (Mar 15, 2020)

Davifd Fletcher's Tank Chats are fascinating and worth watching. If you ever get the chance to go to the Tank Museumn at Bovington, do so. it is a fascinating place and there can be seen Little Willie in all its glory.




Little Willie

As well as examples of other Great War tanks, including a workable Mk.IV, a Whippet and a Renault FT.17; if Little Wille was the Grandfather of the tank, the FT.17 was the father - it was innovative in concept and design; the first with the accepted layout of the driver at the front and engine at the back, with a 360 degree rotating turret with its armament in the turret. It was also designed with the intent of providing a fast armoured vehicle to be used in large numbers for massed assaults on fixed positions. It was also the first mass produced tank to be built under licence by a foreign country. Anyway, I digress, The FT.17 at the Tank Museum:




Char Renault

David Fletcher's take on the FT.17



On the subject of Flers-Courcelette, the first use of tanks in battle, the starting point of the battle was the village of Longueval, to the side of which was a tank park, where the vehicles gathered before the assault. At the high point of a ridge to the north of Longueval was the New Zealand Division, which had the support of the British 14th Div, supported by the tanks. This was the first engagement of the NZ Div on the Western front. Anyway, in the photo below you can see the village of Flers, to the right of the water tower behind the bushes at the extreme right edge of the photo. This was the first objective of the attacking force, but between their starting point, from where this photo was taken, with Longueval behind me, and Flers were lines of German trenches in the foreground near the clump of trees in the middle that had to be overrun. These were taken in bitter hand to hand fighting by the Kiwis and Brits, while the tanks did their best to go over them, terrifying the Germans in the process. It was said that once Flers was captured, there was a procession through the village of troops and the remaining tanks, to the amazement of the locals, who had no doubt never seen a tank before.




Great War Tour 42


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## Alecras234 (Mar 21, 2020)

Wurger said:


> Let's see what books say ...
> 
> "The full-size wooden model of the tank was presented to the War Office representatives at Wembley Park in London in September 1915. The final appearance was revealed at Fosters in December 1915. The completed vehicle was sent to the Hatfield Park, Hertfordshire for official trials.
> On 29 January 1916 the new machines gave the demonstartion of its capabilities in the grounds of Hatfield House. Four days later , on 2nd February 1916 , the show was repeated in front of a distinguished audience that included the Field Marshal Kitchener."
> ...



so for my notes, does the first point sound ok?
Wooden MK1 tank shown to War office - September 1915
I want to say something about it's demonstration in jan 1916 but how was it its final appearance??


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## Wurger (Mar 21, 2020)

Alecras234 said:


> so for my notes, does the first point sound ok?
> Wooden MK1 tank shown to War office - September 1915
> I want to say something about it's demonstration in jan 1916 but how was it its final appearance??




Do you mean the appearance of the wooden mock-up shown at Wembly on 29th September or the tank presented in January 1916?


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## Alecras234 (Mar 21, 2020)

Both. I'm trying to make little facts from what it says in my book but i'm not sure how to word them.


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## Wurger (Mar 21, 2020)

I'm afraid the image of the wooden mock-up doesn't exist. Regarding the pics of the Mark I in January 1916 .. there is some of mess I would say. Once the shots are captioned as taken during the trial at the Hatfield Park , Hertfordshire while the same images are said to be taken in the Burton Park, Lincoln In January 1916. IMHO it doesn't matter if these were taken Hatfield Park or Burton Park because it was the same tank showed at the both places. Not all of the pics there on the three pages are for the tank but if you scroll the screen you may find these with the tank in.

Here you are links to the IMW pages with a couple of shots of the either Mother or Big Willie trials in January 1916 ...

Search our collection | Imperial War Museums

Search our collection | Imperial War Museums

Search our collection | Imperial War Museums


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## Alecras234 (Mar 21, 2020)

Am i right in thinking that a wooden prototype of the mk1 tak was shown to the war office in September 1916?


The complete mk1 tank gave two demonstrations in 1916? im trying to make short facts to remember. HELP!!


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## Wurger (Mar 21, 2020)

No the wooden mock-up was presented to the War Office in September 1915 but not in September 1916.

And yes, the complete Mark I tank was demonstrated publicly on 29 January 1916 . Also it looks like the trials of the tank had lasted almost all the January 1916 before the presentation. The show was repeated on 2nd February 1916 and again on 8th February 1916.


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## Alecras234 (Mar 22, 2020)

Something like this, do these sound ok? what else can i put?

MK1 wooden model shown to war office - September 1915

MK1 prototype shown - December 1915

Complete MK1 trials at Hatfield park - January 1916


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## Wurger (Mar 22, 2020)

Generally it is OK. However, the second point you should change into:

MK1 final shape shown - December 1915


Also you may add the fourth point:

MK1 first official demonstration - 29 January 1916.


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## Alecras234 (Mar 22, 2020)

so 
MK1 wooden model shown to war office - September 1915

MK1 final shape shown - December 1915

Complete MK1 trials at Hatfield park - January 1916

Should i just write down the things that i want to remember? 
The full-size wooden model of Wilson’s design for an all-round track machine, which Swinton had seen in Lincoln, was brought up to London in September 1915 and shown to War Office representatives at Wembley Park. To what extent it looked like the tank, as ultimately built, we do not know, since no photograph survives. One witness described the weapon sponsons, fitted to the sides, as looking like bow windows, but since the matter of the weapons to be carried had not then been settled this does not signify very much. The final appearance was revealed when the prototype was inspected at Fosters in December, but it could not be described as complete until it arrived at Hatfield Park in Hertfordshire in January 1916, for its official trials. Outwardly it was a dramatic departure from the profile of Little Willie, although in fact the two machines had a lot in common. Indeed, the massive, lozenge-shaped track frames that created the new tank’s distinctive silhouette were just enlarged versions of the type fitted to the first machine. Even the body itself was more or less the same shape, except for the raised cab at the front; only now it was sandwiched between the frames, rather than riding on top of them. These frames were extended fore and aft to give an improved trench-crossing capability to meet new War Office requirements and where they protruded, ahead and behind the body, these extensions were referred to as horns.


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## Wurger (Mar 22, 2020)

These three points are OK. Regarding of the additional info.. it depends on you only if you want to remember that. But it is not needed IMHO.


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## Alecras234 (Mar 24, 2020)

Is this ok,


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## Wurger (Mar 24, 2020)

Yes it's OK.


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## Alecras234 (Mar 29, 2020)

Right i don't know if this wording is correct, on wikipedia it says that the wooden mock up of the MK1 Tank was ready in December 1915, but in my book it says the mk1 prototype was inspected at fosters in December 1915. Would the prototype of been the wooden model and what is correct ready or it was inspected?


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## Alecras234 (Apr 3, 2020)

Hi Do these facts sound ok, should i add more?

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## Wurger (Apr 3, 2020)

I think it is Ok. Nothing is needed to add.


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## Alecras234 (Apr 6, 2020)

Hi i made another tree map, is the information correct, do you think i could add more facts?


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## Wurger (Apr 6, 2020)

It is Ok.


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## Alecras234 (Apr 7, 2020)

Hi my book says that the Schneider CA-1 was based on the Holt tractor. The Schneider CA-1 saw action in 1917, When were Holt tractors made? My book shows a Holt 75 tractor and it says that 1,651 Holt 75 tractors were delivered between 1915 - 1918. Were there various types made throughout world war one, not just in 1918? It gives me different information on wikipedia, which information should i learn?

Thank you
Ash


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## Wurger (Apr 7, 2020)

The Holt model 75 tractor wasn't the only tractor produced by the Holt Manufacturing Company The Holt firm also made model 120 and model 60. The assembling of the tractor started in 1908 and lasted until the war end. The French Army used them as the heavy artillery tugs. Looking for a base for their own tank they decided to use just the model 75 as the most numerous equipment at that time. The works started in 1914 and resulted in the Schneider CA-1 tank introduced at the assembling lines of the SOMUA factory in 1916.


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## Alecras234 (Apr 19, 2020)

Hi can you help me please? im reading about the mk2 tank of ww1 and the one at Bovington museum is female but has a female sponson. I don't understand that, if it's a female tank surely it has a female sponson unless its male then it has a male sponson.


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## Wurger (Apr 19, 2020)

About the Mk.Ii tank ...

" The chief external differences from Mark I lay in the tail wheels, which were not used on Marks II and III and later heavy tanks, the narrower driver's cab and the 'trapezoid' hatch cover on the roof. Only fifty tanks each of Marks II and III were produced. They were unarmoured, in the sense that the steel from which they were built was not heat treated to make it bullet proof. The reason being that these tanks were only intended for use as training machines.

About the requested tank ...
Built as a Male Tank, No. 785. Took part in the battle of Arras, April 1917. Various features, in particular the hinged hatch on the cab roof and internal modifications show that this tank subsequently served in the supply role. Returned to the UK after the war. Exhibited as a Gate Guardian at Chertsey for some years. Around this time it was modified to resemble a Mark I, complete with tail wheel assembly and fitted with sample Male and Female sponsons In this guise it subsequently came to the Tank Museum, bearing the name HMLS Dragonfly. With the arrival of the Mark I Hatfield Tank, it reverted to a Mark II, remained a hermaphrodite, and was later renamed Flying Scotsman when the lettering was detected beneath later layers of paint. Strangely there is no trace of the name Flying Scotsman in 6th Battalion records."


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## Alecras234 (May 12, 2020)

Did they build 100 mk1 tanks of ww1 aswel as building 150 mk 1 tanks or didn't they just build 150?


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## Wurger (May 12, 2020)

Initially it was ordered 100 of Mark I tanks. But later the number of ordered vehicles was increased to 150 tanks. The 150 tanks were the male and female ones together.


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## Alecras234 (May 23, 2020)

what tanks were ordered 100 of? Mother prototype or the MK1 when it was finished?


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## Wurger (May 23, 2020)

The Mother tank was the only prototype . The order was for the Mark I.

What was finished , the order ?


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## Alecras234 (May 23, 2020)

The original order ws for 100 mk1 then the order went to 150 mk1. Did they build 100 before they built 150?


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## Alecras234 (May 23, 2020)

it says in my book the the mother prototype went for trials in January 1916.


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## Wurger (May 23, 2020)

They didn't build 100 tanks before they assembled the next 150. They were making the 100 ordered tanks when the number of ordered tanks was increased to the 150. So as the result they built the 150 tanks instead of 100 ordered initially.



Alecras234 said:


> it says in my book the the mother prototype went for trials in January 1916.



Yes, it is correct.


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## Alecras234 (May 24, 2020)

Do these sound ok or should i delete some?

How many mk1 tanks were built by Metropolitan of Birmingham? 75
Who built the remaining 25 mk1 tanks of the original 100? fosters & co
What was the original order? 100
What was the order increased to? 150
Why was the order increased? Because the army wanted to create 6 mk1 tank companies
How thick was the armour of the mk1? 6mm and 10mm
What was the armament of the mk1 male? 2 long barrelled 6 pounder cannons and 3 machine guns
What was the armament of the mk1 female? machine guns only
How many mk1 tanks formed E Company? Eight
Where was E Company fighting? Gaza

Should i delete the first three questions and say 150 tanks were built and not 100? Was the original order 100?


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## Wurger (May 24, 2020)

All sounds good.
However I would change the two first lines and would merge into one question.
It could be..

- Who built the ordered Mark I tanks? 
Metropolitan of Birmingham and Fosters & Co.

Then I would delete the first two lines and put the merged one as the third question like below...

- What was the original order? 100
- What was the order increased to? 150
- Who built the ordered Mark I tanks? 
Metropolitan of Birmingham and Fosters & Co.
......
The rest of question as you wrote above.


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## Alecras234 (May 24, 2020)

so now i have, 

What was the original mk1 tank order? 100
Why was the tank order increased? Because 6 tank companies were created
What was the tank order increased to? 150
Who built the ordered mk1 tanks? Metropolitan of Birminghan and Fosters
What was the armament of mk1 male tanks? 2 long barrelled 6 pounder cannons and 3 machine guns
What was the armament of the mk1 female tanks? machine guns only
How thick was the armour of the mk1 tank? 6mm and 10mm
How many mk1 tanks formed E Company? 8


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## Wurger (May 24, 2020)

Sounds good ...

But I would change the order of the questions. The second one should be the third and the third should be the second.


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## Alecras234 (May 24, 2020)

so 100 were not built, only 150?


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## Wurger (May 24, 2020)

Yes finally there were 150 tanks made.


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## Alecras234 (May 24, 2020)

Here are questions and answers on the MK4 tank, do they sound ok or should i change some?

What was the first mass produced tank? MK4
How many MK4 tanks were built? 1200
How many men could crew the MK4 tank? 8
How thick is the armour of the MK4? 12mm
How were the sponsons different on the MK4 tank? they could be pushed inside the tank
Why was the cab on the MK4 narrower than on the MK1? so it could use wider tracks
What was the armament of the MK4 Male? 2 short barrelled 6 pounder cannons and 3 machine guns
Where was the fascine fastened? on the roof
What battle were fascines used? Cambrai


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## Wurger (May 24, 2020)

These are ok.


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## Alecras234 (Jun 29, 2020)

is this book good as an overall look on tanks, not just British?


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## Wurger (Jun 29, 2020)

Looks good.


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