# Pzkpfw V Panther its variants. (1 Viewer)



## CharlesBronson (Aug 18, 2008)

My purpose with this topic is quite simple, I want to talk about this legendary german tank design, its development, variants and combat experiences.


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## JugBR (Aug 18, 2008)

good post charly. to start talk about this legend, we must come back to the beginning of barbarossa operation and talk about another legend:






the "battlehorse" t-34


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## JugBR (Aug 18, 2008)

a nice portuguese site to research:


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 18, 2008)

You are right, that is why the first chapter in this story is:



> good post charly. to start talk about this legend, we must come back to the beginning of barbarossa operation and talk about another legend:



*Surprize in the East:*

When one considers oneself to be an elite force operating with the best available equipment, the sudden discovery of that a earlier despised enemy actually possesses a weapon system that is technically superior is naturally a sharp blow to one s pride and morale.

Such was the situation confronting the German panzerwaffe in July 1941 following the appearance of the soviet T-34, a tank of wich the Field Marshal Von Kleist described as the better of the world and General Von Mellenthin later wrote: " we had nothing comparable"






In november 1941 a team of designers, manufacturers and Officers of the HeeresWaffenAmt ( technical departament of the Army Arsenals) the so called *"Panzerkomission Ost"* visits Guderian`s Second panzer Army to evaluate the T-34 and decide what technical measure could be taken in order to restore the german superiority.


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 18, 2008)

Oh..you got the story too, well, we will see wich one is better...


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## JugBR (Aug 18, 2008)

CharlesBronson said:


> Oh..you got the story too, well, we will see wich one is better...



mine is worst translated !


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## JugBR (Aug 18, 2008)

btw i erased my post. i didnt realized what you gonna do, sorry. that way to tell, with chapters, is better !


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## machine shop tom (Aug 18, 2008)

One of the first designs of the Panther looked an awful lot like the T-34. When the T-34 was first encountered one of the first thoughts was to copy it. But it was decided to use a German design. This was the Daimler Benz design of the Panther that was not adopted.


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 18, 2008)

There is no need to erase any post, all post are welcomed.

*The proposals.*

Officers at the front were of the opinion that the T-34 should be copied in the lowest amount of time possible. But designers could not agree on this not only for reasons of natural pride for its own design but also strategical, tactical and material shortcomings.

The _Panzerkomission_ came out with a requeriment for a new Panzer with and sloped armour no less than 60 mm at the front, Its main gun should be capable to defeat 150 mm of rolled homogeneous armor at 1000 meters in range. The weight was calculated in 30-35 tons. 

The firms MAN ( Maschinenfabrik Ausburg Nüremberg) Daimler Benz and Reinhmetall Borsig were contracted for this new design, both MAN and DB would submit new design for the tank and RB would deal with the main gun.

Both design were scheduled to be ready for test in March 1942.

*Daimler Benz prototype:*

The DB proposal VK3001 (DB) ( experimetal tracked vehicle 30 tons nº1) was in fact a direct copy of the T-34, it have a similar shape and some internal componets like a completely new aluminium alloy 12 cilinders liquid colled diesel engine.

The suspension of V1 have external leaf springs with 2 bogies and 4 roadwhells. V2 was more conmplicated with internal leaf springs and interleaved roadwheels.

*V1*






*V2*






The long barrel overhang wich had the bad tendency to "dug in" over bad terrain and its obvios similarities with the T-34 were tactical factors wich disliked the HWA, also the provition for aluminium alloy was almost entirely dedicated to the Luftwaffe, putting in danger the future of new land engines using this metal.


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 18, 2008)

*MAN prototypes:*

The MAN design was more conventional, although it copied the sloped frontal, was a design typically German, with a more wider turret located in the center hull.
A gasoline Maybach engine of cast steel and suspension of torsion bars with internal torsion bars and interleaved roadwheels.


*MAN proto with simulated turret.*







*MAN proto with armament installed.*






The MAN design was accepted in May of 1942, in spite of the preference of Hitler by the DB design.


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 20, 2008)

*Panzerkamfpwagen Skoda T-25.*

Even not directly involved with the Panther development the czech ( protectorate of Bohemia und Moravia for the germans) factory of Skoda submitted a design for the new panzer V.

The weight was 34 tons, it had a Tatra engine V8 with 420 hp, and is said that the projeckt incorporated an automatic loader for its main gun. Nothing more is now since the design did not progress further.


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 26, 2008)

*Pre-series. The Versuchs and ausf D1.*

The first 20 tanks of preliminary series of the Panther ( V2 to V21) were denominated " D1" those had an glacis 60mm thick and the muzzle brake with a round single chamber in the style Pz IV ausf F2. 











Also it was powered by a Maybach V-12 engine with 650 HP instead of the 700 HP standardized in later models. The vehicle already excedeed the 35 tons determined at the requeriment of 1941, it had 40100 kg in combat order.

Squematic showing the small differences between the D1 and later D variant.






This D1 were not used in combat, remained as conversion and training tanks.


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## SoD Stitch (Aug 27, 2008)

This is probably skipping (way) ahead, but my favorite PzKpfw V/SdKfz 171 variant is the Ausfuhrung G with the infra-red ('_Puma_'/'_Sperba_') sighting system; way ahead of it's time (as so much of the German hardware was back then).


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 27, 2008)

Why not, here you got more info:

*Nightfighting Panthers* 






Some few Panthers were equipped with special infrared devices for night combat. The "Heereswaffenamt" WaPrüf 8, in cooperation with the AEG was dealing with this kind of optical equipment since 1936, but devolopment was discontinued and the decision to further investigate in this area wasn´t made until the Allies gained total airsuperiority in 1943. From now on much energy was invested in the project. 

The results of these investigations, which were lead by Ministerialrat Dr.-Ing. H.Gaertner Heereswaffenamt/WaPrüf 8, were, that in 1943 the Wehrmacht equipped some few Panthers with 200-mm infra-red searchlights FG 1250 and a BIWA (Bildwandler - image converter), which converted the infra-red image into a visible reproduction. In the first tests at the armoured forces school at FALLINGBOSTEL (North Germany) near HANNOVER the crews trained to drive and to aim at night. Admittedly the searchlight range wasn´t more than 600 metres, limiting the long range advantage of the excellent KwK42 75mm/L70. 


*The FG 1250 infared searchlight and scope mounted on the commander´s cupola of an Panther Ausf.G.*







The steel band was fed through a hole in the turret roof at the base of the cupola. This steel band, connected internally to an indicator, allowed the gunner to recognize when the elevation of the gun was on target.






Because of this reason the developers mounted an even greater 600mm searchlight on a halftrack, the Sd.Kfz. 251/20 "UHU", which was intended to be attached to each platoon to enhance the night fighting range of the platoon. Finally the Wehrmacht planned to use a halftrack called FALKE in combination with the vehicles mentioned. 

*Nightfighting Panthers in Action*

In summer 1944 the Panthers of 3.Kompanie, 24th Panzerregiment, 116th Panzerdivision, were equipped with UHU on the battle/excercise-area BERGEN, and actually trained the use of the nightfighting concept SPERBER. Hitler planned the mission of this Kompanie to be during the Operation WACHT AM RHEIN (Battle of the Bulge) and actually some squads were tranfered to the western front, but never saw action there.

One SPERBER squad including their Panthers was transfered to STUHLWEISSENBURG (Hungary) in early 1945 with 6th SS-Panzerarmee, intended to support the german counterattack to secure the area of Budapest. The rest of the Kompanie followed, but without nightfighting equipment. In 1945 the Wehrmacht planned to form 5 SPERBER Kompanies, but this concept proved to be illusory. 2 SPERBER squads joined the spontanuous formed Panzerdivision "CLAUSEWITZ", which was formed in spring 1945 on the western front. On 21st of april, these 2 squads ran down an american ambush, which has been set up at the WESER-ELBE-KANAL, and by this ensured the only documented action of the nightfighting concept SPERBER. 

In march 1945 the Panzerdivision "MÜNCHEBERG" received one fully equipped Kompanie of 10 SPERBER capable Panthers and one SPERBER capable Panzer Grenadier Kompanie. The Division took part in the last fights during the battle of BERLIN. If this Division used the SPERBER concept isn´t documented.


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 31, 2008)

*The Panther ausf D.*






Insistence of Hitler in which the new tank should to have a frontal armor of 80 mm consequently had the increase of the glacis, this raise the weight of tank 2 tons, the result of this was the " D" ausfurrung (model).

The distinguishing typical of this model are it very simple cupola with elements of direct vision. Side of turret had openings for pistol ports and a circular hatch of the left side to expel the empty cases. 






Given the unaivailable of ball mounting for sloped armor, the machine gunner of hull fired its MG 34 trought a vertical hinged cover slit.

The turret of the Panther was operated by a hydraulic motor with a max speed of 360º in 19 seconds. For fine adjustment a manual crankcase could be used with two relations of gears, in the lower gear a tunr in teh hadwheel crank swingded the turret just 0.6 degrees, which allowed a very precise adjustment for the shot at more than 1000 meters.


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## Lucky13 (Sep 1, 2008)

Nice going CB! I hope that you'll a similar thread on the StuG.....


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## JugBR (Sep 1, 2008)

man this infra-red devices says all about the advances of german warmachine in ww2.

unfortunelly for them, this wasnt followed by a good strategy. they still manufacturing the Pz.IV until the very end, instead to give preference for the phanters and royal tigers and the bullets of Pz.IV just scratchs the t34´s armor.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 1, 2008)

Thank you Lucky. time is all I need. 

By the way I corrected the mispelling in my earlier post.



> man this infra-red devices says all about the advances of german warmachine in ww2.
> 
> unfortunelly for them, this wasnt followed by a good strategy



It come too late in the war to had a real effect.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 1, 2008)

*Firepower, the Rheinmetall K.w.K 42.*

The fear inspired by the new generation of russian armored vehicles and the heavy accent put by the panzerkommmision on the new main weapon of the new Pzpfw V is clearly stated by his main gun.






Despite the fact this gun was perfectly capable to shot High explosive ammunition ( actually 50 % of the Panther magazine consisted in Sprengranaten) the Kampfwagenkanone 42 was created with other purpose in mind: *to engage and destroy heavy armored vehicle at ranges up to 2500 m.*

The weapon was a derivated from the Pak 40, however the 714 mm case of the infantry antitank gun was not really suitable for handling in the small spaces of a tank turret, so the case was shortened and its diameter increased. 

In the final shape it was a completely different weapon with a streamlined 70 calibers lenght tube and electrically detonated primer.

*Handling the ammo for the K.w.K 42 in a Pantherstellung.*






For aiming this deadly cannon a _Turmzielfenrorh_ TFz 12a with 2,5 x and 25 mm diameters binocular scope was used. In later models this was changed to a TZf 12c monocular with 5x magnification, better for longer ranges.

Hitlers request sought a gun with a penetration of 15 cm of armor at 1000 meters. The K.w.K 42 was fully capable to achieve that with the _panzergranate_ 40/42 ammunition with hard tugsten core, alluminium cap and tracer. This bullet left the barrel at 1150 meters per second. It was in short supply during all the war however and the most used antitank round was the _panzergranate_ 39/42, armor piercing with hardened steel core, ballistic cap, high explosive and tracer.

The pzg 39/42 had a muzzle velocity of 935 mps and a very flat trajectory wich eased aiming and increased the first shot kill chances.

A third type was a HE sprenggranate 39/42 with a 7 kg shell at 700 mps to engage casemates, buildings and infantry.

The Panther Pzg 39/42 actually penetrate the same armor at 2000 meters than a T-34/76 at point blank and 11 mm more than the Tiger 1 88mm at 1000 meters. .

Ammunition type: 100m 500m 1000m 1500m 2000m 

Panzergranate 39/42: 138mm 124mm 111mm 99mm 89mm 

Panzergranate 40/42: 194mm 174mm 149mm 127mm 106mm

*French soldier with some Panther KwK 42 cartrigdes, the bullet was an Panzergranate 39/42, armor piercing capped high explosive-tracer.*


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## Matt308 (Sep 1, 2008)

Excellent pics CB. Just excellent.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 1, 2008)

Thanks, more of the ausf D.







Machining the turret emplacement and drilling the torsion bars axles, inside pics of the Maschinenfabrik Ausburg Nüremberg facilities (MAN)


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## Matt308 (Sep 1, 2008)

They machined the turret!?!?!?!?!?  Wow! That must have been expensive and inefficient. I would have guess that it would have been cast, not machined.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 1, 2008)

-Turret emplacement- I mean the "hole" in wich the turret basket fits.

The turret itself was made from laminates steel plates put togheter by electric arc welding.

*Panther ausf D* in his way to the front, note the pistol port is open and its closing cap is hanging from his chain...perhaps the Panther defend itself from some agressive russians trough the village ?






In the later variants A/G the side pistol port was deleted for speed up production, fact that *did not* help in the urban enviroment always dangerous for armored vehicles.


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## Catch22 (Sep 1, 2008)

Just wonderful!


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## Gnomey (Sep 2, 2008)

Great stuff CB!


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## RATHED (Sep 2, 2008)

Regarding some of the things said earlier on this topic, I have to coment that the Panther _was _in fact a great weapon, and the germans _did_ made a lot of strategic mistakes in its use, buit if anything the biggest one was to speed so much the development of this tank. They should had given the panzer IV total priority in 42. It is incorrect to say that the IV's cannon was unefective against the T-34 in use at that time. The Panther was amazing but incredibily expensive and when rushed in to service very, very mechanically troubled.

I recommend reading Osprey's Panther vs T-34. Not a excellent book, but it does managed to convey the point: The Panther was amazing, but it simply consumed too much effort from the german war machine. When it was needed most ( meaning Kursk in 1943, the last time the germans had a reall chance of changing the war's outcome) they not only were not ready, but in fact prevented the germans from having hundreds of much needed Stugs and Panzer IVs in place.

The problems is not that the germans failed in _using_ the Panther properly. In reality , the tank in itself was so amazing, and because of that so complicate and expensive, that there were never enough of them available. Stugs and late Panzers IV were much more cost efficient *especially in 1943*

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## SoD Stitch (Sep 2, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> They machined the turret!?!?!?!?!?  Wow! *That must have been expensive and inefficient.* I would have guess that it would have been cast, not machined.



Unfortunately, the Germans tended to overdesign and overengineer their equipment, so they did produce some amazing equipment, as RATHED said, but the Germans were more in need of quantity rather than quality, especially toward the end of the War. IIRC, the resources used to construct one Tiger tank could also be used to construct 3 PzKpfw IV's or 4 Sturmgeschütz III's.

Also, the infrared system was, obviously, fairly inefficient, being a first-generation IR system; the only person who could use it was the tank commander, and he had to be exposed to use it. He had to relay targeting info to the driver and the gunner, and it's range was only 500-600m (which was adequate for night-fighting tactics). In addition to tank-mounted IR systems, the Germans were apparently experimenting with a portable IR system mounted on their MP44/StG 44 assault rifle; as JugBR said, the Germans were years ahead of their time, but it didn't help them win WWII. Go here for an outside link to more info on German WWII IR systems.

BTW, CB, I love the pictures of the interior of the MAN factory; you always see lots of pictures of tanks, but not how they're made.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 2, 2008)

> Just wonderful





> Great stuff CB!



Thank you very much.

Well, the Panther have trouble specially in teh "D" variant as we will found later, but once cleaned up in later models it become a fearsome combat vehicle, expensive and more complicated than the allied designs that is sure, but that is hardly a new....Isnt a Mercedes more costly than a Chevrolet or a Lada ?  

*Engine and automotive.*






The ausf D was powered by the Maybach Hl 230, 12 cilinders in V at 65º liquid coooled petrol feed engine.

Displacement was 23,3 liters and the compresion ratio 7 to 1. The indicated fuel was in the order of 75-80 octanes. The maximum power was 700 hp at 3000 rpm. With this figure the Panther was capable to reach 56 km/h in paved road. However to reduce the strain in the final drive ( always a touchy component of the Pz V) the recomended maximum rpm were 2500, in the final gear that allowed 46 km/h, not bad at all for a 43 tons tank.

The gearbox was a semiautomatic Zahndradfrabrik (ZF) AK-7-200 with seven gears forward and two reverse. The driver had the tipical steering levers to operated the tank.

Torsion bars were the choice for the suspension, it wasnt the first time this system was used in a german tank, but the ones applied to the Panther were the larger and most efficient. Its long travel swinging arms provide a very confortable ride and increase speed over bad terrain.

Its had is disadvantages however, the first and more obvious is the costly manufacturing, other was the increased height of the vehicle to 2,85 meters.

*very tiring work...to change the internal interleaved wheel, this was necessary when the rubber worn out, it was need to remove first the external wheels, use the manual jack as in the picture and later remove it by means of special extrators. It take time.*







*And changing the battle tracks, not so difficult but still a healty job for 3 men.*






Ground pressure ( with tracks sunk 10 cm) was merely 0,88 km/square centimeter, an excellent figure for such a heavy vehicle.


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## m kenny (Sep 2, 2008)

SoD Stitch said:


> as JugBR said, the Germans were years ahead of their time, but it didn't help them win WWII. Go here for an outside link to more info on German WWII IR systems.



The link contains fictional accounts of Allied tanks being destroyed by IR Panthers and is years out of date. The Allies had their own IR System but. like Germany, did not want to use it in case it fell into enemy hands. The British had stockpiles of their own IR Detectors waiting to be issued the moment the Germans used it in combat. They had the solution to this 'wonder-weapon' before it was even used!

See:
Axis History Forum • View topic - What are the Germany's "Wonder Weapons"?


Extract:
_The Germans had a world beating lead in chemistry. This gave them the edge in some fields such as nerve agents, which they alone had developed. However everyone had infrared, even low-tech types like Australia, Russia and Italy. (Australia and Italy had break-the-beam type harbour protection infrared and the Russians had a useable driving system in 1940 called DUDKA). 

Only the Germans had infrared image forming equipment (of such quality = range – due to their chemical knowledge making the filters and layering phosphors coatings for receivers, etc) to be able to use it for weapons control for AFV’s. Everyone else had picture forming driving systems suitable for 30 – 50 meters. 
The Germans knew the west had IR and specifically forbad its use on the Western front. The west knew the Germans had IR and went specifically looking for it. Had the Germans used IR Panthers on the western front the British alone had thousands of IR detectors ready to hand out. 

The British were the first to mount their TABBY system on a Sten gun in June ’44 (Source PRO, dated blue print). Whereas the Germans only saw the need for small arms infrared in October ’44 at which point the VAMPIRE was designed (source: Dr Gaertner, head of WaPruf 8/I Optics, report to American interrogator’s June 1945). Neither of which saw much action. The American M3 Sniperscope was first used on Okinawa to great effect (they claim 30% of all small arms casualties due to it’s use) against the Japanese in 1945. (5 years before Korea). 

I always get a laugh from the American code for their infrared, which was NAN or NANCY. The thought of all those Nancy boys blazing away! 

The real lead the Germans had in infrared which got the allies hot and bothered after the war (apart from the quality of the picture forming gear) was the industrial sized production of Pb (lead) crystals which have a certain thermal detection window. Very exciting in 1945, less so now. 

If you have an interest in Television you may be interested to know the first televised infrared image was by the Scottish inventor John Logie Baird in Leads in 1926. The astonished crowd at the demonstration had to be dispersed by mounted police. That was 10 years before the 1936 AEG infrared tube. _


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 2, 2008)

I did not create this topic to talk about chemistry or television, I create this to talk about tanks.

If somebody want to discuss thos eissues I kindly suggest to create other thread.
Nobody likes the topic snatching so please dont.

Thanks you.


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## m kenny (Sep 2, 2008)

CharlesBronson said:


> I did not create this topic to talk about chemistry or television, I create this to talk about tanks.



And as someone posted a link that claimed (falsely) that a plattoon of Comet tanks was wiped out by IR Panthers (they are all tanks aren't they?) I reserve the right to put the situation right.

I note this was posted earlier:

_Also, the infrared system was, obviously, fairly inefficient, being a first-generation IR system; the only person who could use it was the tank commander, and he had to be exposed to use it. He had to relay targeting info to the driver and the gunner, and it's range was only 500-600m (which was adequate for night-fighting tactics). In addition to tank-mounted IR systems, the Germans were apparently experimenting with a portable IR system mounted on their MP44/StG 44 assault rifle; as JugBR said, the Germans were years ahead of their time, but it didn't help them win WWII. Go here for an outside link to more info on German WWII IR systems.
_

and you posted after it . Why did you not say to him :

_I did not create this topic to talk about chemistry or television_


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## Matt308 (Sep 2, 2008)

I don't think we have gotten off track here CB... yet. mkenny's post was relevant.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 2, 2008)

For me is completely irrelevant, but everybody could have its own opinion.








> and you posted after it . Why did you not say to him :



Because Jug did not post about television or chemistry as you did, and by the way if you think I going to waste time and bandwidth arguing with you... you are wrong.

My objetive behind this topic is made it the best possible resource in ww2aircraft.net for the famous german tank, hardly I can achieve that with "off-topicking"


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## m kenny (Sep 2, 2008)

As you wish. Your photo is of one of the Panthers (433) taken at Kursk. The photo shows it when it arrrived at Bovington as a present from the Russians.
The Russian study of the 31 Panther hulks left on the battlefield found 22(71%) were penetrated by AP shot and that 45% of the tanks burned when hit. However 100% of those hit in the engine compartment burned.


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## Matt308 (Sep 2, 2008)

Mkenny please check out my PM.


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## JugBR (Sep 3, 2008)

eh argentino, tah mandando muito bem aqui, parabens !

panther couldnt won the war, but he won some good battles.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 3, 2008)

> eh argentino, tah mandando muito bem aqui, parabens !



That is just my stile dear Jug.8) 

*Dubious debut, The Kursk bulge*

Despite Guderian's warnings, Hitler's desire to employ these tanks in the up-coming "Operation Zitadelle" (the assault on the Kursk salient) conducted to a disaster.

The operation has been explained much better in others places and I have no intention to repeat here. It worth to mention however that the pincer movement planed against the soviet defences was defeated by a strong complex of mines, trenches, fortifications and AT gun nest. Most of the initial german success was obtained by the Heavy Tiger batallions wich engaged and destroyed a large amount of antitanks guns and artillery, this completely vindicated the concept of a heavy breaktrough tank.

Its minor "brother" did not repeat that outstanding performance. 

Not fully developed Panther were simply too ready to mechanical faults and the engine easily over-heated: of the 200 Panthers the 4th Panzer Armee had on July 4th 1943 (most in the ad-hoc formed 10th Panzerbrigade with panzer abteilung 51 and 52 and the others assigned to several companies of privileged units such as the GD and the IInd SS Panzerkorps's divisions) only 43 were still functional the following day (note that Panther's problems were known as the large complement of tanks to the two battalions was seen as remedy to this).






Grossdeutschland Panzerregiment reported to have lost six of its brand new Panthers while moving towards the attack positions because of technical failures. In the mid-day of July 4th the same unit had a quarter of its Panther broken-down and by July 5th it has lost the 80% of its Panthers! Gefreiter Werner Kriegel of Pz.Abt. 51 remembers:


"[...] _By the evening of 5th, Pz.Abt. 51 had only 22 Panthers operationa. Some 28 were totally destroyed, the rest damaged. My comrades complained about the final final drives and of their engines overheating. The engine compartiment was very tight because of UK equipment (diving equipement) ... On the 8th of July we again headed for Oboyan south of Kursk. 


Our tank received a hit form a tank gun at the commander's cupola. We carried on the attack with an open hatch and a cracked cupola. My commander shill has the shell ... We lost one tank to one of those heavy assault guns [SU-152], the mantlet was simply penetrated. We also met American tanks [M3A3 Lee-Grant] which were no match for us ... We destroyed a number of T-34s at ranges well over 2,500 meters ..."_

A very interesting picture. A captured Panther ausf D in the bulge with the inscription "tiger" in the glacis plate.






I wonder if this explain the large amount of "Tigers" claimed as destroyed for the Kursk defences, more than 200 when only there was 147 operative Tigers and less than 30 were actually knocked out.


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## Matt308 (Sep 3, 2008)

She sure was a tall tank for those open plains. I would have guessed that more AT weapons like the SU-152 and IS-2 would have played a more decisive role against these limited Panthers.

Were the IS-2's below not available in sufficient numbers?


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 3, 2008)

You mean for the Kursk battle ? the answer is no, the IS-2 entered in service in mid 1944.
The heaviest tank used by the russian in the bulge was the KV-1S. But the most dangerous were the heavy self propelled howitzers .


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## Matt308 (Sep 3, 2008)

Okay thanks.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 3, 2008)

No problem. One more pic of July 1943.


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## SoD Stitch (Sep 3, 2008)

CharlesBronson said:


> No problem. One more pic of July 1943.



Great pics, CB, I've never seen these before; quite the inauspicious beginning for the Panther, eh? 

It's quite sad to see all of those destroyed/disabled Ausf D's "littering" the Kursk battlefield.


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## SoD Stitch (Sep 3, 2008)

CharlesBronson said:


> You mean for the Kursk battle ? the answer is no, the IS-2 entered in service in mid 1944.
> The heaviest tank used by the russian in the bulge was the KV-1S. But the most dangerous were the heavy self propelled howitzers .



Would that be the SU-152's?


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## Erich (Sep 3, 2008)

ok CB just so we are clear together, there were no W-SS Panthers at Kursk.

2nd SS Panzer had the Panther defending on the Mius during August of 43 and made quite a name for itself


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## JugBR (Sep 4, 2008)

SoD Stitch said:


> Would that be the SU-152's?



thats the su 152:






more info:

THE RUSSIAN BATTLEFIELD - ÑÓ-152


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 4, 2008)

Thank you for the correction Erich.



> Great pics, CB, I've never seen these before; quite the inauspicious beginning for the Panther, eh?
> 
> It's quite sad to see all of those destroyed/disabled Ausf D's "littering" the Kursk battlefield.



Thanks you and yes, you bet, I want one for my backyard.

By the way yes it was the SU-152 152 mm self propelled gun, however there were few of this vehicles in the russian side. the most prominent were the T-34 based Su-122 and the open topped Su-76 not a match for any german panzer.


*Ausf A:*

Front and rear view of the ausf A model, the most distintive characteristics was the integral ball mounting in glacis, and the newly designed hemispherical cast cupola. The tools layout and exhaust gas conduct were different than the ausf D.






In the last series the side turret pistol port were deleted







Close up of the cupola equipped with 8 periscopes, The circular shaped bar welded over was used to support the AAA MG-34 and/or the scissor telescope


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 4, 2008)

*Early series ausf A*, knocked out and captured by british soldier 2 june 1944. Note the pistol port also opened in this tank. The tank was battling outside Rome with the 4th panzer Regiment. It have a penetration (6 pounders ?) below the tactical number.


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## Matt308 (Sep 4, 2008)

Brilliant. Wonder if the pistol port is out due to cupola pressure upon penetration. Might be the reason for many of your posts comments, CB. And thos are huge entry points. Look bigger than 76mm for sure. Even closer to 105mm.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 4, 2008)

Thanks.
105 mm sound like too much, the britons had in that time 6 pounders ( 57 mm) 17 pounders (76mm) and 25 pounders ( 88mm) guns as AT defense, also the 57 and 75 mm tank guns of Churchills and Shermans, is most likely thet the Panther was hit by some of that.

*ausf D, note the straw cover trying to cammo the long gun*


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## Matt308 (Sep 4, 2008)

I will concede to the experts that 105mm rounds did not exist. But 88mm AP hits that I have seen before had smaller entrance wounds that better coincided with the round diameter. Those holes are much bigger than 88mm. Just a novice wondering, CB.


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## SoD Stitch (Sep 5, 2008)

CharlesBronson said:


> Close up of the cupola equipped with 8 periscopes, The circular shaped bar welded over was used to support the AAA MG-34 and/or the scissor telescope



Just a small note of (possible) correction; wouldn't the AA gun have been an MG 42, not a 34? IIRC, the 34's were all used for the ball-mount and co-ax, and the 42's, which had entered production a year or two earlier, were used for AA protection.


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## m kenny (Sep 5, 2008)

The straw is to cushion any collision damage.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 5, 2008)

> I will concede to the experts that 105mm rounds did not exist. But 88mm AP hits that I have seen before had smaller entrance wounds that better coincided with the round diameter. Those holes are much bigger than 88mm. Just a novice wondering, CB.



Just a matter of opinion  



> Just a small note of (possible) correction; wouldn't the AA gun have been an MG 42, not a 34?



Is possible that some Panther used a MG 42 ( wich would be better against aircraft because its higher rate of fire) but actually all the pictures I ve seen is with a MG 34. I would love to a MG 131, that is a gun with real chances to bring down an aircraft.

*Fliegerbeschusgerät* ( device for shooting aircraft)







3 view of a France based Panther with the device installed. The mG 34 fired at 800 rpm but the chances to destroy an allied attack aircraft were few.












Drawing from "Panther variants in Colour" Josef Kolacha.


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## SoD Stitch (Sep 5, 2008)

CharlesBronson said:


> Just a matter of opinion
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sweet! You come up with some good stuff, CB; I actually prefer the 34 anyway, it was a better piece of equipment than the 42 (though it was also more expensive time-consuming to manufacture).


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## lesofprimus (Sep 5, 2008)

Heres a few shots of the model I did on this very tank...


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## wilbur1 (Sep 5, 2008)

Great job les


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## m kenny (Sep 5, 2008)

Standard issue was 2 MG's per tank. To mount one on the coupla either the bow or co-ax (bow was easiest) gun was dismounted. Late war the new MG was fitted on Tiger II's at least. The photos of '008' in the Bulge has one fitted (from memory so may be wrong)


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## SoD Stitch (Sep 5, 2008)

Sweet Panther, les! I wish _my_ models turned out that well . . . . I'm still at the "OOB" level, though. Maybe some day I'll graduate . . . .


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 5, 2008)

> Sweet! You come up with some good stuff, CB; I actually prefer the 34 anyway, it was a better piece of equipment than the 42 (though it was also more expensive time-consuming to manufacture).



Thanks
As you may note the model made by Les also have a MG 34. The only german armored vehicles I ve seen with MG 42 are the Sd.Kfz 250 y 251 half tracks used by the panzergrenadiers.

*Stupid Fritz:*

A pair of pics that clearly demonstrates why you should not try to cross a log brigde with a 43,5 tons tank.  











The Panther ausf D had a full fording equipment wich was capable to be installed in 30 min and gave the capabilities go trough calm waters up to 4 meters deep, this commoditie was delEted in the ausf A variant because slowed manufacturing and decreased the airflow to engine radiators.

That panther ausf A is quoted as part of SS Viking division.


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## Matt308 (Sep 5, 2008)

Excellent, CB.


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## B-17engineer (Sep 5, 2008)

I was watching a show "Weaponology, Waffen SS" and they said the main reason for a curved barrel attachment on the Mp 44 was to spray down tanks incase infantry crawled onto them......


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## RATHED (Sep 5, 2008)

Well , if the tank belong to the Viking division , it is tecnacally not a " stupid fritz"  since all the man in the 5 SS were non-german foreign voluntaries.


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## SoD Stitch (Sep 5, 2008)

RATHED said:


> Well , if the tank belong to the Viking division , it is tecnacally not a " stupid fritz"  since all the man in the 5 SS were non-german foreign voluntaries.



If you mean by "stupid fritz" a German-born citizen, then you are correct; Hitler had this idea that all racially-related peoples (i.e.: Germans and Scandinavians) should join forces against the "Slavic hordes" of the East. There were several racially-diverse _Waffen_-SS divisions, one of which was the _Wiking_ division, composed of Danish and Dutch "volunteers". There were several such _Waffen_-SS divisions, composed of foreigner volunteers; people who were considered racially "compatible" with the ultimate goals of the Third Reich.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 6, 2008)

> Excellent, CB.



Thank you.



> I was watching a show "Weaponology, Waffen SS" and they said the main reason for a curved barrel attachment on the Mp 44 was to spray down tanks incase infantry crawled onto them......



For every use actually, shooting inside tanks, shooting from the corner, over the edge of a trench, inside a bunker, etc, The late ausf F variant used a MP 44 in the hull instead a MG 34.



> Well , if the tank belong to the Viking division , it is tecnacally not a " stupid fritz" since all the man in the 5 SS were non-german foreign voluntaries.



Danish and Dutch ? okay then... stupid Laudrup and stupid Cruif.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 6, 2008)

*Pantherstelllung, Panther turrets as pill-boxes*

During the Italian campaign the Germans mounted Panther's turrets on concrete pillboxes for anti-tank defence.

This received several names such as *Pantherturm*, _*Pantherstellung*_ ( Panther emplacement); _*PantherOstwallturm*_ ( Panther turret for east defenses)

Some were installed for saving the vehicles while providing a cheap but powerful anti-tank capability, but the most were expecially designed ones with increased 40 mm roof armor to whithstand heavy artillery shells, and heavier 70mm side armor. Most of the Italian inland was mountanous: by blocking a few passes with assault guns and anti-tank pill-boxes (as the Panther's one) the Germans were able to contain the menace with their thinily spread forces. 

Although the majority of this Panther Ostwallturm saw employement in the East, in the effort of building strong German defensive positions along along a line going from Narva to Crimea. As war progressed many German cities were named felde platze (fortress) and turrets (both appositely designed ones or from damaged tanks) were used to strengthen these improvised positions.
The turrets, with their low profile, resulted quite impressive to Allies commands and an evaluation of the Panther turrets employed as pill-boxes by the British Mediterranean theatre high command (circa August 1944) expressed in these terms (extract from T. Jentz's Panther variants):

_Panther turrets are not of course AFV but their impact on the course of AFV affairs is thought to be sufficiently important to justify a few words. Panther turrets were first met in the Hitler line and were in fact the salient features round which the other defences were built up. They are actual tank turrets, though perhaps of a lightly earlier vintage than those now on tanks. They are mounted on a turret ring fitted on an armoured box, built up of welded plate about *63mm* (2.5 inches) in thickness. The whole of this box is sunk into the ground and earth is banked up close to the turret so that it is first cleared by the gun at depression and yet offers some additional protection to the base of the turret skirts. 


*Pantherstellung before being emplaced in dug out position*:



















Traverse is by hand only and no power is supplied. Access to the turret is either by access doors in the turret itself or from underneath the armoured box by means of a steel ladder communicating with a deep dugout. It is obvious that the crews live in the turret and dugout permanently, as electric light is supplied and there are other signs of continuing operation.


This system of static defence was backed up by SP equipment and ordering anti-tank guns. In front of each position there was a graveyard of Churchills and some Shermans; perhaps eight tanks to a gun and all within 200 metres of it. This is, at present, the cost of reducing a Panther turret and it would see to be an excellent investment for Hitler. Obviously these turrets are most formidable unless each one is dealt with by a carefully prepared and co-ordinated attack.

The turrets are almost invisible till they fire and, when located, there is very little to shoot at and, unless the turret happens to be pointing elsewhere, it will not be penetrated either by 75mm or 6 pounder guns. HE fire is obviously useless. In all cases where there was enough of the turret left to diagnose the method of destruction, penetration of the turret side had been effected. One Churchill crew who destroyed one with their 6 pounder say that the turret blew up immediately it was hit. This was presumably due to the ammunition, since a large quantity is stored. If anti-tank defence is to consist of these turrets in the future it cannot but emphasise the need for a proportion of tanks to carry a really effective AP weapon, though it is not by any means accepted that attack by tanks is the best and correct method of dealing with them._


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## B-17engineer (Sep 6, 2008)

Great job CB! thanks


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 6, 2008)

No problem, here no got more images of the _Pantherstellung_.

*Near Cassino, Italy.*







*In Berlin*, this seems to be a makeshift using ausf A turret, note the cuppola, attachment that teorically the Pantherturm shouldnt use.








*In Breslau, east Prussia* ( today Wroclaw, Poland), note the huge amount of expend ammo  







*Other in Berlin*, destroyed by internal explosion.







*In Rimini*, Italy, note the Churchill tanks in the background destroyed by the pantherturm, this stellung was destroyed by one or two hits visibles in the right side.


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## Matt308 (Sep 6, 2008)

Fantastic CB


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## Marcel (Sep 7, 2008)

See below the Panther D displayed in the dutch city of Breda just on a street corner. Very strange, you walk in the city and suddenly face this tank. They say it's the only Panther D-series left in the world, don't know if it's true or not


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 7, 2008)

Thanks you Matt. 
Damn !! that is a nice picture Marcel. the only tanks emplaced as monuments here are those annoying Shermans  

More images of the ausf A.

Zimmerit equipped Panther of the Waffen SS in "ambush" cammo, This tank was in a forest in France.












The initials of the infamous Leibstandante Adolf Hitler unit are visible in the turret side. I am not quite sure but the vehicle seems to be a Panzerbefehlwagen ( command tank) because the "R" only assigned to platoon or section commanders.







Inside view of a Panther ausf A cuppola. The commander looking trough the periscopes.


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## Juha (Sep 7, 2008)

Thanks for the interesting photos, CB.

Marcel, do you know the history of the Ausf D in Breda?

Juha


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## Marcel (Sep 7, 2008)

As far as I know, it was captured by the Poles when they liberated Breda and used in battle for a short time. Then they donated it to the city of Breda as a memorial and it's been there ever since. It's recently restored as it was in bad shape.


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## Gnomey (Sep 7, 2008)

Good stuff CB, nice picture Marcel.


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## Juha (Sep 7, 2008)

Thanks a lot for the info, Marcel!
Very interesting, another Cockoo, 6th Guards Tank Brigade used one Pz V Ausf G in Holland, they were very satisfied to it.

Juha


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## Lucky13 (Sep 7, 2008)

5th SS Division Wiking also had Norwegians, Swedes and Finns, which later formed 11th SS Divison Nordland.... These are the two SS Divisions that I'm most interested in....

Awesome thread CB, very educational....! Looking forward to the same on the StuG! 8)


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## lesofprimus (Sep 7, 2008)

Some new pics I took today for refrerence..


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 8, 2008)

> Thanks for the interesting photos, CB.





> Good stuff CB,





> Awesome thread CB, very educational....!



Thank you lads, interesting history of polish Panther in Holland, I knew so far that the poles used some Panthers when the Armia Krajowa made the Warsaw uprising, no idea that they also captured and used some in North Western Europe.

*The Panzerbefehlswagen Panther Sd.kfz 267/268*

The _Panzerbefehlswagen_ (armored command vehicle) was the obviously command variant of the Panther. the diferences with normal vehicles were teh elimination of coaxial machinegun MG 34 and its emplacement sealed by and armored plug. 

Supply of 75 mm ammunition for the main gun was also reduced from 84 to 64 projectiles.

The remaining internal space was used to install 2 more powerful UHF and VHF _Funkgerät_ ( radio set) and a map table. Its visible differences were the side aditional aerial and a _sternantenne_ ( star antenna) in hull, rear of the turret. These equipment could keep the Section commander or platoon commander linked with other tanks, the panzergrenadiers, artillery batteries and aircrafts at maximum ranges of 45 km ( with good weather)

*Panzerbefehlwagen Panther ausf A*, this tank had reveiced a hit in the gun mantlet near the TZf 12 but survived without too much trouble.







*Panzerbefehlwagen Panther ausf A*,vehicle owned by the Oberst(colonel) Willy Langkeit, Panther ace in the eastern Front.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 8, 2008)

Close up to the turret in Command Panther.






The shorty General Hasso Von Manteuffel onboard a Typ 166 Kubelwagen, the guy in the *Panzerbefehlswagen Panther* is the Oberst Langkleit, both officers belong to the Gross Deutschland armored division. ( Langkeit was regiment commander and Manteuffel was Divisional commander)


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 11, 2008)

* Panther ausf D with panzer IV ausf H turret.*

Another weird variant.This vehicle seems to be build from an Bergepanther chassis married with a Pz IV turret. it was used only by the Heavy tankhunters Battallion 653 in Poland and Ruthenia (Belarus) in 1944.













Is not clear if the turret actually had a revolving movement or it was bolted to the chasiss.The Sch Jagd Pz Abt 653 had a interesting collection of rare vehicle including Porsche Tigers and captured T-34 with flak guns.


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## Matt308 (Sep 12, 2008)

Now what would be the rationale for that, CB? Didn't the IV have a 75mm gun? Was this because of lack of material (ie 88mm turret)?


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 12, 2008)

Honestly I dont have a clue why they did that, I suppose they had a spare Panther chassis and a spare Pz IV turret so they think...why not? and married it.

And yes the Pz IV ausf G turret used a K.w.K 40 75 mmm gun with 48 calibres in lenght.


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## B-17engineer (Sep 12, 2008)

Very good info CB


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 12, 2008)

Thank you.

*Panther Combat and Experience Report on the Action near Wilkowischken*

Narration of the combat who took place from 9 to 11 August 1944 by Oberfeldwebel Heinz Bergmann of the 4. Kompanie/Panzer-Regiment 26 (Extract from T. Jentz's Panther book, courtesy of Rob White's Panther page).

_The East Prussian border was threatened. The enemy had succeeded in reaching Wilkowischken. Counter measures were initiated. During the night of 8/9 August, heavy Panzers, Artillerie, Fusiliers, Grenadiers and Flak came rolling together on the roads Ebenrode-Eydtkau-Wirballen and gathered in the assembly area. It is the best division in the East, "Grosssdeutchland" with its attached units. The fire fighters of the East as they are called. It had the objectives of pushing back this corner of the Front and to retake Wilkowischken. _


_The assembly area was lit by the dawn and quiet reigned. A gigantic portrait of military might and power had gathered here in a confined area. Punctually at the ordered time for the attack, the motors started and their droning ripped through the still of the morning. Like an avalanche, the impregnable spearhead rolled toward the enemy main battle line and bored through. Closely followed by the Fusiliers and Grenadiers enlivened by a spirit to attack against which every resistance must break. Also, the enemy is awakened and sent his artillery and motar shells against the juggernaut. _

_Enemy destroyer aircraft attack in waves attempting to force a halt. Fountains of earth climb skyward. Sheds in which the enemy take cover, go up in smoke and flames. Unstoppable, the spearhead advanced toward Wilkowischken, grinding guns and positions underneath. Often in man-to-man combat, the Fusiliers and Grenadiers engage the tough and stubborn enemy. At about 1200 hours, the city is in our hands. The battlefield shows the mark of heavy combat. The enemy has lost large quantities of both men and material. Positions were established to defend the city. _

_Toward the southeast, in the rear of the city, two Panthers pulled into their defensive area. Russian tanks were reported. Not a half hour had passed when four Russian tanks approached the city from from the southeast. They were spotted immediately, but the range was still too long. Then they disappeared into a depression. Will they come up again is the question. There, somewhat left, all four appeared in a line at a range of 1300 meters. Now their full size was seen and the defenders opened fire. Five shots quickly followed each other and three columns of smoke stand out against the sky. The fourth was lucky to turn right and disappeared into a patch of woods. Was it only an advanced spearhead? Will still more follow or were they recon vehicles? The eyes of the commanders search the terrain. But nothing stirs._

 



  


_Twilight slowly enveloped the terrain in darkness. What will the next day bring? Will the Russians try to counterattack and retake the city or not? The leader decided to change to another position to get a better field of fire. During the night running motors from moving tanks were heard. Toward morning, a Panther was called back for resupply and the other Panther had to take over the entire defense._

_Daybreak has long since passed and an attack was no expected when out of the depression at full speed fourteen Russian tanks carrying infantry charged toward the defending Panther. The loader was outside well away from the Panther finishing his business when shelling forced him to take cover. This made the situation more difficult. The driver took his place and fire was opened at a range of 1000 meters. Shot after shot was sent toward the attacker. The enemy had charged to within 600 meters turned right and disappeared into a hole. Four enemy tanks remained as smoking wrecks on the track. An immediate call on the radio alerted the defenders positioned further to the north. They managed to destroy six of the ten remaining tanks. Driving wildly, the rest escaped.

An attack behind our front had been repulsed and cost the enemy heavy losses._
_Again the defending Panther changed his position. After an hour, the second Panther returned from being resupplied and took up his defensive position. The enemy hadn’t given up their attempt to enter the city. 

During the afternoon, the enemy with an infantry battalion supported by four SU assault guns, under cover of the tall corn fields, tried twice to break in from the southeast. But, both attacks were completely repulsed by the two defending Panthers. All four SU assault guns that took part in both of these attacks were shot up. Two Panthers defending the city from the south and southeast had broke up two tank and two infantry attacks. The enemy suffered the loss of eleven tanks and very heavy losses of men._


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## Matt308 (Sep 12, 2008)

What is the last pic, CB. An obvious hit, but on what vehicle and where? I don't recognize the vehicle and location.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 12, 2008)

Amidship hit in T34 M1943, the accesory in the side I am not sure what it is, it look very thick walled to be the gun cleaner kit box.


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## B-17engineer (Sep 13, 2008)

Reading this site Untitled Document
found this information



Armour: 14.5mm.

Weight: 7.2 tons.

Armament: 20mm KwK 30 L/55 automatic cannon (120 rounds) and 1 x 7.92mm mg.

Speed: 40kmh (25mph) on road and 20kmh (12mph) cross-country.

Range: 200km (125 miles) on road and 126km (78 miles) cross-country.

Crew: 3, driver, commander/gunner and loader/radio operator.

The PzKfw II entered production in late 1935. The vehicle did not prove very effective in combat, due to its light armament and armour protection. Its main armament of the 20mm cannon was adequate at the time of its introduction into service but soon proved to be insufficient. The cannon was mounted on the left and machine gun on the right side in the turret. The turret itself was offset to the left of the superstructure and was traversed by hand. However, despite the vehicles many shortcomings, it did serve the role of a good light tank and effective reconnaissance tank. It also provided German designers and manufacturers with tank building experience. Early models had a rounded nose plate, but these were soon replaced by two angled armour plates joined at a 70° angle. Like other panzers, its chassis became a base for various conversions including Marder II tank destroyers and Wespe self-propelled howitzers. The suspension was developed from its predecessor, the PzKfw I and consisted of three articulated pairs of road-wheels, connected by an outside girder. The Ausf A/1, A/2 and A/3 were pre-production vehicles, which entered service for testing purposes without their mechanical problems being completely solved and remained in service until mid 1941. Each subsequent variant featured some modifications, including improved engines, cooling and exhaust systems, as well as changes to the suspension to correct problems encountered in the previous variant. In March 1937, a new variant, the Ausf C appeared. It featured a new suspension, which consisted of five independent road-wheels and became the standard for following models of PzKfw II. The vehicle also had improved armour protection, which was increased to 16mm. In May 1938, the PzKfw II Ausf D/E were produced as light tanks for cavalry units. They featured the unsuccessful Famo/Christie type suspension, similar to that developed by the British and Russians. The top speed was increased to 55kmh, with the introduction of a new engine and gearbox. The armour protection was also increased to 30mm. Due to its poor suspension the vehicle suffered from unsatisfactory cross-country performance. In May 1940, armour protection was further increased with the addition of 20mm plates bolted to the front areas of the vehicle. This measure was introduced following combat experience during the Polish campaign in September 1939. In March 1941, the PzKfw II Ausf F was introduced. Some vehicles of this final variant were fitted with the newer 20mm KwK 38 L/55 cannon. The vehicles ammunition storage capacity was increased to 180 rounds. The Ausf F featured numerous modifications based on the experience with earlier models. These included improvements to the front hull, front superstructure, mantlet, suspension and commander's cupola. The Ausf F was also heavier, weighing 9.5 tons and featured a smaller fuel tank, which reduced the vehicles range.
A number of vehicles were also converted to Flammpanzer II Flamingo flamethrower tanks and Schwimmpanzer II, an amphibious tank. On the amphibious version, flotation devices were installed on the sides and front of the vehicle and all openings were made water tight. The hull was divided into 3 chambers with walls that were made from inflated celluloid bags. A marine propeller was added, which ran off the engine via an extension sleeve and gave the vehicle a speed of 10 kph in the water.
The flame throwing variant was introduced in January 1940 and was based on the PzKfw II Ausf D/E's chassis. It was armed with two flame-throwers, mounted on the track guards on each side of the vehicle. They were mounted in special turret-like cases that allowed them to rotate in a 180° radius. Each flame-thrower had its own fuel tank with a 160 litre capacity, which was enough to fire 80 bursts out to the maximum range of 25m. The flame-thrower's fuel consisted of a mixture of oil and gasoline that was projected with the help of pressurized nitrogen stored in six pressurized tanks. The vehicle was also fitted with a 7.92mm MG34 mounted in the turret. These vehicles saw service in Russia until late 1941, when they were withdrawn and the chassis were used for conversion into the Marder range of vehicles. 
In September 1943, the final variant the Panzerspahwagen II Ausf L Luchs (Lynx) entered production. This light reconnaissance tank was a development of the Ausf F and used a modified suspension and hull. It was powered by a new engine and gearbox, weighed 13 tons and had an increased road range of 290km. It also had a four men crew consisting of a commander, gunner, driver and radio-operator and was armed with the 20mm KwK 38 L/55 cannon. This light reconnaissance tank saw service until the end of the war on the Eastern and Western Front with armoured reconnaissance units. Vehicles operating on the Eastern Front were mounted with additional frontal armour plate for increased protection.


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## B-17engineer (Sep 13, 2008)

Here's another good link

germanmediumtanks


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 13, 2008)

Well, the light Panzers deserve a topic too.

*Panzerbeobachtungwagens:*

Until 1942 the advanced artillery observers were doing his work from armored cars and light halftracks, that vehicles had a very low survivality in the battlefield, that was particulary true in the hard envoromen of the Eastern Front plagued with antitank rifles, at guns, artillery and mines.
A heavier and well protected panzer was needed for artllery duties.

Already in a early date as november 1942 the Panther was nominated as a possible heavy _*Panzerbeobachstungwagen*_ ( armored obserbation vehicle)

*The Panther entwurf 3.*

Several drawings were submitted in late november for fulfilling the observation requeriment, one by Daimler Benz, one by Krupp and other by Rheinmetall Borsig, The only surviving squematic is the know as Entwurf 3 (third proposal) made by RB.

The entwurf 3 panther turret was based on ausf D one, modified with a 1 meter base rangefinder in the front and two observation devices. A large TBF 2 ( _TurmBeobachtungFenrohr_ = turret periscope) centrally located in the commander post ( very much like a submarine periscope) and a smaller TRS1 spotting periscope used by the adjutant observer. Both devices would allow the crew to observe the falling of artillery shots completely enclosed and protected in the turret

Aditional radio equipment in the way of FuG 5 and FuG 10 were to be carried in order to transmit corrections to artilley batteries, two aditional radio mast including a star antenna were installed in the Entwurf 3 Panther.

The armament used was the smaller K.wK 39/1 50mm with 60 calibers barrel with no coaxial gun, that allowed more internal space than with 75mm K.w.K 42 armed Panther.

No production vehicles of this variant were manufactured 

*Profile of the Pz.Beo.Entwurf 3, november 1942*.


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## m kenny (Sep 14, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> What is the last pic, CB. An obvious hit, but on what vehicle and where? I don't recognize the vehicle and location.



The number T88264? on the side is from a block of 180 allocated to Matilda II, IV and V Tanks.


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## Marcel (Sep 14, 2008)

Of course you know the "Panther Fibel"


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 14, 2008)

> The number T88264? on the side is from a block of 180 allocated to Matilda II, IV and V Tanks.



Uh, That explain why the turret does not look like a T-34, thanks 



> Of course you know the "Panther Fibel"



Yup, very nice.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 14, 2008)

*HISTORY of the PANTHER Ausf. G *

Following a directive from Hitler on 27 February, 1944, the designation for the Panther-PzKpfw V- was dropped, and the final production variant built between March of 1944 and April of 1945 was simply known as the Panther Ausf. G. MAN, Daimler-Benz and MNH all built the Ausf. G. with a combined total output of 2953 Panthers. To simplify production, the Ausf. G had modified superstructure sides, and hull sides increased in thickness to 50mm. 








The angle of slope was also altered. The headlight was repositioned from the left side of the glacis to the left fender and the engine deck was also redesigned and shortened. 

The Kinnwalzenblende, or chin mantlet was also newly designed for the main gun mantlet to eradicate a shot trap deflecting shells through the hull roof. The driver's vision port was replaced by a traversing vertical periscope since the fixed episcopes restricted vision. The tool racks were also revised and some very late production vehicles had all-steel resiliently sprung wheels of the type, but not size, fitted to the late production Tiger and Tiger II. In very late production Ausf G's, the cylindrical stowage box for the gun pull-through and cleaning gear was removed from the port side and mounted across the hull at the rear of the engine compartment. 

A _nahverteidigungswaffe_ close defense weapon ( it was a grenade launcher actually) was located in top turret.

Ausf G's were no longer painted RAL 7028 (Dunkelgelb), instead leaving the factory in red oxide primer. In October of 1944 a raised heating tower over the rear portside circular engine fan was installed. Its purpose was to pull hot air from the engine radiator and direct it into the crew compartment. Beginning in December 1944 Flammvernichter, or exhaust flame suppressing mufflers were attached to a shortened exhaust pipe. This had a fan like grill in the outlet opening which killed flames or sparks from engine gases. These alterations to the basic Panther design were to be the last production modifications seen.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 14, 2008)

2 Panther ausf G withdrawing from France 1944.

The heavy concern of being attacked by from the air is clearly depicted the crew watching the skies behind the tank. The guy sited in the deck use luftwaffe schutzbrille, anti glare glasses.

This one have zimmerit, also is noted the inertia starter handle and the termal shield for the exhaust tubes.






The straight rim in the lower hull over the wheels is a tipical characteristic of the ausf G variant, The K.w.K 42 cleaning rod is transversally over the engine room in this tank. A spare rubber tired roadwheel is in the side of the turret.
the ausf G had the side turret armor increased to 50mm.


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## SoD Stitch (Sep 15, 2008)

CharlesBronson said:


>



CB: I often see an old pail or bucket hanging on the backsides of German tanks, like in this photo; do you know what it's for?


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 15, 2008)

I believe it was used for filling up the coolant in the engine. There were other uses, I am sure.


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## Matt308 (Sep 15, 2008)

Thanks, m kenny, for the clarification.

And Marcel, I would love to have a translated version of the Panther Fibel. Even in German that was a great read!


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## Marcel (Sep 15, 2008)

The tiger fibel is even better. I know there's a translation of that one (a friend of mine has a hardcopy), but never saw a translated version of the panther fibel. I could do it, but it's quite some text.


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## Lucky13 (Sep 15, 2008)

Now, CB...those odd creatures would make for some interesting building, right?


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 15, 2008)

Here you got another oddity, Panzerschule Panther ausf D, fueled with highly compressed natural gas in external tanks.


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## SoD Stitch (Sep 16, 2008)

CharlesBronson said:


> Here you got another oddity, Panzerschule Panther ausf D, fueled with highly compressed natural gas in external tanks.



Looks like a one-off; just imagine if one of those tanks got hit by an AP round!


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 16, 2008)

A single hit in it and the whole thing will left a black hole in the landscape as only remain.
But you need to remember that is was only for training, note the "Fahrschule" ( driver school) sign in the glacis.

There are nearly 1,000,000 cars running with that system in here.







*Panther armor.*

Panther knocked out in France, 1944, the resilience of the frontal armor was truly impressive, this vehicle had at list seven 75 or 76 mm hits at the front, 4 in the glacis and 3 in the gun mantlet, the only damage visible is a rupture in the mantlet near the gun and a small penetration ( better said craking) in the lower left corner of sloped armor.







The side plates were other thing however. Panther ausf A in a dug in emplacement in Berlin, March 1945, this vehicle has been shot until extintion.


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## Matt308 (Sep 16, 2008)

Wow. And those look like heavy caliber rounds. They don't look like oblique hits.


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## Soren (Sep 17, 2008)

They could be 75 or 76mm hits, but highly likely they are 85mm or 100mm hits.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 17, 2008)

More likely 85mm, from a T-34-85 or maybe a su-85 self propelled gun.

*Ernst Barkmann, Panther ace:*






Ernst Barkmann was born in Kisdorf in Holstein on August 25th of 1919.He was a son of a local farmer.

On April 1st of 1936, Ernst Barkmann joined SS-Standarte Germania as a volunteer and after three months of training joined the III Battalion of the Standarte at Radolfszell. Barkmann took part in Polish Campaign of 1939 serving with 9th Kompanie of SS-Standarte Germania as a machine gunner and was wounded there.
In Autumn of 1941, Barkmann was seriously wounded during fighting near Dnieprpetrowsk (Operation Barbarossa) and received the Iron Cross (Second Class). 

In late 1941, Barkmann was transferred to Holland as an instructor of European SS-Volunteers but in early 1942, he volunteered for service with division's Panzer Regiment. Ernst Barkmann returnedto the Eastern Front in winter of 1942 and was transferred to 2nd Kompanie of 2nd Panzer Regiment of 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich.Barkmann's unit was equipped with tanks panzerkampfwagen III with 50 mm guns which were outclassed by Soviet t-34 and others. In early 1943, 2nd Panzer Regiment took part in the Battle for Kharkov, where Barkmann won the Iron Cross (First Class). In mid 1943, Barkmann was transferred to 4th Kompanie which was equipped with new Panther tanks. 

In late 1943, Ernst Barkmann was promoted to the rank of SS-Unterscharfuhrer. In early 1944, the entire division was transferred to Bordeaux area in southern France for rest and refitting as a panzer division. Following the D-Day (June 6 of 1944), 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich was ordered to move northwards and was committed to battle. 

*In early July of 1944, Das Reich was moved to Saint Lo to halt the advance of the US Army's 9th and 30th Infantry Divisions and the 3rd Armored Division. On July 8th, Barkmann's Kompanie was a spearhead of Regiment's attack on the advancing American units. On this day, Ernst Barkmann knocked out his first Allied Sherman tank near St.Lo. On July 12th, he destroyed two more Shermans while disabling the third one. During that engagement Barkmann moved his camouflaged Panther to ambush position and awaited for more Allied armor, knocking out three Shermans. After that Ernst Barkmann's tank was hit by an anti-tank gun which caused fire. He decided to abandon his burning Panther and along with his crew he quickly put out the fire. After that engagement his Panther ended up in the workshop for repairs. After a day of rest, in morning of July 14th, Barkmann was ordered to recover four Panthers that had been cut off behind enemy lines. He succeeded in his task and added three more Shermans to his score.* 

On the same day at noon, Ernst Barkmann was ordered by the Regimental Commander SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Tychsen to recover wounded German soldiers from their American captors.

Once again he succeeded and in the evening his own Panther was returned to him from the workshop. On July 26th, Barkmann's Panther suffered from engine problem and was sent to field workshop.When mechanics were working on it, field workshop was attacked by Allied fighter-bombers and Barkmann's Panther was hit in the engine compartment. By the dawn of July 27th, his Panther was repaired but he was cut off from the rest of the Kompanie and was on his way to rejoin it. On his way back, near the village of Le Lorey, Barkmann was stopped by the retreating German infantrymen who reported that Americans were closing in. 

Ernst Barkmann decided to send two of his men to verify that report. They soon returned with news of American column made up of some 15 Shermans and other vehicles approaching. 


Then Barkmann moved his tank up the road to the crossroad where he positioned his Panther in the surrounding oak trees, awaiting the enemy. When the American column approached, Ernst Barkmann opened fire, knocking out two leading tanks and then tanker truck.Two Shermans tried to go around burning wreckage that blocked the road and one of them was knocked out followed by the other one.

*Ernst Barkmanns (Das Reich, 2nd SS Panzer Division) famous day long solo engagement against an American Armoured breakthrough towards St. Lo, Normandy, 26th July 1944*. (art by David Pentland)
 





 

In the response, Americans retreated and called up the tactical fighter support and Barkmann's Panther was damaged and some of the crew members were wounded. Using the element of suprise two Shermans attacked "wounded" Panther but were also knocked out.Barkmann and his crew repaired their Panther and knocked out single Sherman while leaving.His driver managed to moved their damaged Panther to the safety of nearby village of Neufbourg. During that brave engagement often called "Barkmann's Corner", Ernst Barkmann destroyed approximately nine Sherman tanks and many other various vehicles. 

On July 28th, Barkmann reached Coutances and joined the rest of his Kompanie. During two day period, he destroyed fifteen Shermans and other vehicles. On July 30th, Americans surrounded Granville but Barkmann towing one more damaged Panther was able to break out. In order to destroy their disabled Panther their crew decided to set it on fire and soon by mistake both Panthers caught fire. Both crews were forced to make their way to the German lines 7 kilometers away on foot. Barkmann reached Avranches on August 5th, and was warmly welcome by his comrades who heard about his exploits. For his bravery and skills Ernst Barkmann was recommended for Knight's Cross and was accepted on August 27th and was awarded on September 5th. 

SS-Oberscharfuhrer Barkmann continued his successful career and took part in the Ardennes Offensive in December of 1944, where on December 25th he was seriously wounded. During the Ardennes Offensive, Barkmann's Panther drove into the group of American tanks from the 2nd Armored Division. Quickly combat begun and outnumbered Barkmann managed to knock out few Sherman tanks. One Sherman rammed Barkmann's Panther but didn't cause much damage although both tanks got stuck and Panther's engine stall. After few minutes, Barkmann's mechanic managed to restart the engine and Panther retreated with blocked turret. Even with the damage, Barkmann knocked out Sherman that waspursuing him and retreated to safety although his Panther was beyond the point of repair. 

In March of 1945, Barkmann was once again fighting with Soviets in the area of town of Stuhlweissenburg, where he knocked out four T-34s and brought the total score of the Das Reich Division for the war so far to 3000 enemy tanks destroyed. At the time Das Reich was exhausted by non-stop fighting and lack of replacement tanks. Barkmann's unit alone had only nine fully operational vehiclesfrom which three were soon lost to Soviet Josef Stalin tanks. 


The remaining six Panthers were ordered to link up with the remnants of the Panzer Regiment of the 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler commanded by SS-Standartenfuhrer Jochen Peiper.By April of 1945, Barkmann saw action south of Vienna during the fighting in Austria. There his Panther was hit by a mistake by friendly soldiers and Barkmann along with his crew members was wounded. Later on his Panther was disabled in a huge bomb crater and was destroyed by its crew. Ernst Barkmann was able to reach British zone of operation where he was taken into captivity. 

During his very successful career, Ernst Barkmann earned Knight's Cross for his bravery and skills along with the Panzer Assault Badge for 25 and 50 engagements with the enemy. He survived the war and lives in Kisdorf, Germany, where he was the long-time fire-chief and also major (Burgmeister).




DAS REICH HOME PAGE - 2nd SS Panzer Division

World War 2 Pictures in Color - WW2inColor.com

Achtung Panzer !

As much you might hate the SS you need to give credit to this guy.


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## Matt308 (Sep 17, 2008)

I have a great book on his exploits. If they made it into a film the viewer would never believe the exploits of this brave tank commander and claim it was fictitious. His accomplishments are truly mythical.


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## m kenny (Sep 17, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> I have a great book on his exploits. If they made it into a film the viewer would never believe the exploits of this brave tank commander and claim it was fictitious. His accomplishments are truly mythical.



Barkman's 26th July feat is much talked about however there is not a single reference to any such action or delay in any US accounts. It seems no one noticed it and it was not important enough for anyone involved (on the US side)to mention. All references to the action share a single source-the German account. 
For the period 23/29July US tank losses were 91 and so if Barkman got 15 he accounted for 16% of all US losses by himself.
If the 8th-14th tally he claimed was 10 then as US losses that week were 75 he again accounted for 14% of all US losses.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 17, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> I have a great book on his exploits. If they made it into a film the viewer would never believe the exploits of this brave tank commander and claim it was fictitious. His accomplishments are truly mythical.



Nice, I hope you can bring some scans.


*Pz V Panther Ausf F.*

The Model F was the final combat version of the Panther that the Germans intended to introduce during the war, although in reality German factories did not manage to finish a complete Model F tank before the war ended.

*Mixed vehicle comprised of ausf G chassis, kwk 42 normal gun and schmalturm.*






This variant married the newly developed Narrow Turret (Schmalturm) with its modified 7.5cm L/70 gun to an altered Model G chassis. The latter featured thicker frontal hull roof armour (25-40mm instead of 16-40mm), 
improved armour casting on the glacis plate surrounding the Kugelblende 50 machine gun ball mount, and modified guides for the sliding driver's and radio operator's hatches. 

The Germans decided to develop a new turret to replace that of the Model A and G tanks because combat experience had shown that this design sometimes deflected incoming rounds down onto the thin hull roof armour. In addition, the designers had concluded that the front of the current Panther turret presented too large a target to the enemy. 

During winter 1943-44, two prototype were developed with narrow-fronted and better-armoured Panther turrets - the Narrow Gun Mantlet Turret (which Jentz asserts was to be mounted on the Panther II), and the Rheinmetall Narrow Mantlet Turret. As an outgrowth of these designs, during 1944 Daimler-Benz designed a new Narrow Turret (Schmalturm) that the Germans intended to install on a modified Model G Panther chassis to create the Model F variant. 

*Close-up to the schmalturm, note the circular protection for the right lense of the rangefinder*.






The Schmalturm mounted a slightly modified gun, the 7.5cm KwK 42/1 L/70, ( sometimes named as Kwk 42/KM, for keine mundungbremse, no muzzle brake) together with a co-axial MG 42 (instead of the MG 34 included on previous Panther designs). The turret had a narrow conical gun mantlet and a narrow turret front, as well as 40-120mm-thick armour instead of the 16-100mm plates on the Model G turret.

A very improved characteristics were the aiming devices for the gun, in adition of the normal telescopic Zielfenrorh ZF 12, it used a 1,8 m wide optical coincidence rangefinder wich provide a much more precise target range lecture than the stadimetric scale in the ZF 12.

*KWK 42/1*






Experimental Narrow Panther Turrets (Versuchs-Schmalturm) during mid-1944,and then in August mounted one of them on a standard Model G chassis for test purposes. 

Next, in late October, the High Command issued a production schedule for the Panther F: Daimler-Benz was to produce the first 50 tanks during February 1945, and by May - when Model G construction was to have ended - Krupp, MAN, MNH and Ni-Werk were to join Model F production. But the combination of Allied air strikes and ground advances, plus the administrative chaos engulfing the tottering Nazi Reich, delayed manufacture of the Model F. Consequently, when the Soviets overran the Daimler-Benz factory at Berlin-Marienfelde in late April 1945, they discovered four well-advanced Model F chassis, plus several completed Narrow Turrets. 

Indeed, during late April, Daimler-Benz did fit several Model G Panther turrets to completed Model F chassis and delivered these tanks to the troops then desperately defending Berlin.

Clearly, while the Germans did not manage to finish a single Model F Panther prior to the end of hostilities on 8 May 1945, they remained literally only a few days away from achieving this goal when the Soviets overran the Marienfelde factory.

*Another close up, for some uknown reason the barrel was sawed off in this schmalturm captured by the british*.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 18, 2008)

*THREE-QUARTER VIEW OF ARTIST'S IMPRESSION OF MODEL F PANTHER, GERMANY, MID-MAY 1945* 






This plate is an artist's impression of what a completed Model F Panther would have looked like had one been delivered to the Army. However, the Soviets captured the Daimler-Benz factory at Berlin-Marienfelde in late April 1945 before this could be achieved.

The Soviets discovered in this factory four well-advanced Model F chassis plus several unmounted completed Narrow Turrets (Schmalturm); the Model F Panther would have been created by simply marrying these Narrow Turrets to the completed chassis. The Narrow Turret of the Model F mounted a slightly modified gun, the 7.5cm KwK 42/1 L/70, with a co-axial MG 42 (rather than MG 34), and featured a narrow conical gun mantlet and turret front, plus thicker armour, so as to increase its battlefield survivability. 


The chassis remained virtually identical to that of the Model G, except that it had enhanced armour casting on the glacis plate surrounding the machine gun ball mount, modified guides for the sliding driver's and radio operator's hatches, and thickened frontal hull roof plates. In this artist's impression, the tank has been painted in Dark Olive Green (RAL 6003) throughout as its base paint, a procedure authorised by the German High Command in late November 1944. 

The kwk 42/1 is in place with his lack of muzzle brake, now I guess that the strain in the recoil hidro-pneumatics cilinders of the turret must be a lot harder without this element.

The hull MG 34 "panzerlauf" machinegun was replaced in the ausf F variant by a MP-44 assault rifle in a special mount. The Stg 44 had no sights and was aimed using tracer ammunition.


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## Matt308 (Sep 18, 2008)

"The hull MG 34 "panzerlauf" machinegun was replacd in the ausf F variant by a MP-44 assault rifle in a special mount. The STg 44 have no sight and was aimed using tracer ammunition."

That seems like a stupid decision. You might get more ammo due to smaller sized rounds, but that weapon would never hold up to sustained fire. Wonder what possessed them to do that? War expediency to free up MG 34s for other uses?


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 18, 2008)

Cheapness, pure and exclusively. The MG 34 was always a very good wepon but a bit expensive...and considering the german war situation in 1945 cheapness was the word in mouth of every weapons designer and manufacturer. 

The "panzerlauf" ( armored barrel) variant was the one designed for AFVs that compensated for the lesser change of barrel and the armored housing also protected the barrel against artillery splinters and small arms fire.

*MG 34 panzerlauf.*






The MP 44 had also another advantage, it could be dismounted more easily in case the crew need to bail out the tank or to patrol on foot outside the Panther.






The disadvantages of an the german assault rifle compared with the MG 34 were:

-Lower rate of fire 450-500 compared with 700-800 rpm.

-Lower sustained burst: you said so, 30 rounds magazine compared with 150 rounds belt.

By the way I wrote _"the MP 44 had no sights and was aimed using tracer..."_; Actually the MP 44 had its sights but those sights could not be used when it was installed in the ball mount so the tracer rounds were used correcting the fire viewing trough the periscope.

According H.L Doyle the ausf F used also a STg 44 with Krummlauf inside the turret, that device combined with the nahverteidigungswafe grenade launcher should improve the tank survivality against infantry attacks and/or streeth fighting.


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## Soren (Sep 19, 2008)

The close proximity grenade launcher was one of the most brilliant devices put on a tank during WW2 IMO. Shoot it off while the enemy is close or while they are crawling on top of your tank and it would be devastingly effective. A grenade in the air is more than twice as effective than one lying on the ground!


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 19, 2008)

Yes, I think disadvantages was the complicated ammunition used, because airburst with time fuze is not always a easy task. There was also a round wich bounces in the ground and exploded in air, actually to write about about the NVW and its ammo is a long task, almost for a tiny book.

*Location of the Nahverteidigungswaffe in Panther ausf G turret.*


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## Soren (Sep 20, 2008)

AFAIK it worked very well and there were no problems with the fuzing. It's really not that difficult, you just gotta make sure it explodes roughly 2m above the tank, and the Germans were experts at fuzing so it wasn't a problem. 

The velocity of the grenade was very low, and the timing of the fuze was accurate, so that was never a problem AFAIK. A tiny grenade launcher. A simple but brilliant device. Would certainly keep me from thinking of jumping onboard to take it out!

A great site for info on the device:
Nahverteidigungswaffe


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## Soren (Sep 20, 2008)

More effective than the close proximity grenade launcher however was the close defense mines mounted on German tanks from mid 44 and onwards. Five were mounted on fixed points around the tank, each one could be fired selectively by the commander on his control panel. Firing off one on the side could cover a 180 degree area with a massive amount of lethal schrapnel. Unlike the Nahverteidigungswaffe however it was a one time fire weapon in combat as it had to be reloaded from outside the tank.


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## Soren (Sep 20, 2008)

Btw Charles, the rate of fire of the StG.44 is 550 rpm, while the MG-34's rate of fire is 900 rpm.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 20, 2008)

Good link thanks, actually the weapon is far more simple than its name.  



> Btw Charles, the rate of fire of the StG.44 is 550 rpm, while the MG-34's rate of fire is 900 rpm



I ve seen the Stg 44 firing and the rate seems really low, in regards of the MG 34 I think 900 rpm was the maximum possible rate but the guns were set at the factory to shoot at 800 rpm.

*Sturmpanther with 150mm howitzer.*

Late in the war, numerous proposals were made for mounting medium to large caliber weapons on the Panther chassis. One of these was to mount the 15cm StuH43/1 in the Panther turret creating a Panther equivalent to the Brummbär, but with a fully traversing turret. The initial proposal was made by Krupp, while Alkett was working on a similar proposal using the Sturmgeschütz III chassis. Krupp proposed using the commander's cupola from a Tiger and the gunsight of the Maus on the Sturmmörser Panther.






Given the size and expense of the Panther chassis, one must question the validity of the Krupp proposal. Long barreled versions of 15cm weapons could be mounted on the Panther chassis, therefore mounting the short 15cm StuH43/1 in the Panther seems to be a waste of material. The vehicle never made it off of the drawing board before the end of hostilities.


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## Soren (Sep 20, 2008)

CharlesBronson said:


> Good link thanks, actually the weapon is far more simple than its name.
> [/qoute]
> 
> Agreed, it's a real bitch to memorize and then spell
> ...


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 21, 2008)

Nice videos Soren  , that one is shooting far more faster than I ve seen.

*Panzerbeobachtungswagen Panther, 1943 variant:*






And heavier and improved armored obserbation tank was proposed in march 1943.

Rheinmetall-Borsig and Anschütz collaborated on the design for the Panzerbeobachtungswagen Panther. Several optical devices, including a 1.32m-based rangefinder, two TSR, 1 observation devices, and the ubiquitous scissors periscope, provided the additional sighting capabilities required by an artillery observation vehicle.






A single MG 34 pzlf was placed in the front of the turret, it could be amied by a 2x scope with a elevation of +15º to -10º and could be rotated 5º to either side. Aditional armament were aN normal MG 34, an MP 40 and a grenade launcher pistol carried inside the by the crewof 4 ( tank commander/chief observer, adjutant observer, driver, radio operator (machinner gunner.

The rangefinder lens were could be sealed up by armored covers. The K.wK 42 was deleted and a shorter fake gun place instead, the front of the turret was closed by 100mm rolled homogeneous plate.

Direction indicators were provided for both the commander and observer. Anschü contributed the mechanichal computer "Blockstelle 0" (an automated plotting board with used ranges nad deviation to draw maps and plans) for the vehicle, mounting it in a shockproof mount in the turret. 
This plotting board allowed firing instructions to be issued in the absence of a map.

According to The Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War II a total of 41 Panzerbeobachtungswagen Panther were converted from battle tanks returning for repairs in late 1944/early 1945. Given the volume of production, it seems probable that some would have seen action. Spielberger in Panther and Its Variants indicates that none of them were used in service, but were used only for testing purposes.

One thing is sure, the Pz.Beo.Wg Panther 1943 was the best artillery obserbation tank of the war.


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## Soren (Sep 21, 2008)

CharlesBronson said:


> Nice videos Soren  , that one is shooting far more faster than I ve seen.



Yeah, the real RoF is 550 to 600 rpm. But since surplus 7.92x33mm ammunition is rare and really hard to acquire most people use their own handloaded ammunition, and with less powerful loads to preserve the weapon better, which results in a lower rate of fire. Sometimes lower weight projectiles are used as-well, also lowering RoF.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 21, 2008)

A rare video, Panthers, Flak en even MKb 42 H in action 8) 


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDDHvwpoQXo_


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 23, 2008)

*Panther Ausf G with steel-rimmed road-wheels.*

Originally, it was planned to manufacture model Ausf G with steel-rimmed road-wheels ( _gummisparende_) instead of previously used rubber-rimmed road-wheels, the all steel stamped wheels would save manufacturing time, but in 1944 only small series of 24 was produced. This variant is reported as very noisy for obvious reasons.








And one fantastic picture of the all steel wheel G in the front, this Panther had already entered in combat as in noted in the 3 killmark painted near the muzzle of powerful Kwk 42. Note that one of the external roadwheel has been replaced with the standar rubber tired model.






The location seems to be Belgium in the winter of 1944.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 24, 2008)

Images of the ausf A and ausf G of the Panzer-Lehr near a Farm in France june 1944.
The desission to send one of the best armoured combat trainers ( probably the best in the world at that time) at the front to be slaughtered by Lancaster, Thunderbolts and Typhoon, was not one you might call wise.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 26, 2008)

*Bergepanther*.

During the early war years the German army used the 18-tonne SdKfz 9/1
and 9/2 for recovering broken-down or damaged tanks, but with the arrival of
the heavy tanks such as the Tiger and Panther these vehicles were no longer
able to recover the weights involved.






The only way they could be used effectively was in complicated tandem or other arrangements with one vehicle's crane acting in combination with the other, and it was not always possible to get two of these large halftracks to some locations, even supposing two were on hand, The only solution to the
problem of large vehicle recovery was the development of a new heavy recovery vehicle. 






Some of the early Tiger units converted their machines to take winches in the turret in place of the main gun for recovery purposes, but this was a waste of a valuable gun tank and Tigers were always in short supply. 
In the end it was decided to use the Panther tank as the basis for the new vehicle. The new vehicle became known as the SdKfz 179 Bergepanther, or Bergepanzer Panther. The first of these appeared during 1943, and they were conversions of early models of Panther gun tanks. On the conversion the turret and fighting compartments were completely removed and replaced by an open superstructure housing a large and powerful winch. 






To increase the 'pull' of this winch the vehicle had at the rear a large earth spade. In use this spade was lowered to the ground and the vehicle was reversed, the spade thus being dug down into the ground to act as a stable anchor when the winch was in use with the cable running out
over the vehicle rear. The combination of spade and winch enabled the Bergepanther to recover even the heaviest vehicles, and it also carried all manner of other recovery equipment, including a light crane jib on the left-hand side for use when carrying out running repairs.

It was spring 1944 before the first Bergepanthers reached the troops, the conversions being carried out by DEMAG in Berlin. By the time the war ended 297 had been produced, but not all of them were fully equipped, For
supply reasons some vehicles were issued without the rear-mounted spade which reduced them to little more than towing vehicles; they were of such limited utility that many of these incomplete vehicles had their winches removed to enable them to be employed as supply and ammunition carriers.

The full standard Bergepanthers proved to be invaluable and not surprisingly they were concentrated in Panther, Tiger and Königstiger formations. In service they had a crew of five, and most retained their front hull 7.92- mm (0.312-in) machine-gun. Many were also armed with a 2-cm cannon carried just forward of the open superstructure on a mount that allowed it to be used either in the anti-aircraft or ground target role.






When they were first introduced the Bergepanthers were well in advance of other contemporary recovery vehicles. Although it was a conversion of an existing tank, its combination of winch, earth spade and overall layout meant that it was quite simply the best recovery vehicle produced during World
War II.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 26, 2008)

* Bergepanther with 37mm AAA.*

A rare bird with shielded a 37mm flak gun on top, the pictures were taken in Poland I believe.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 28, 2008)

Another good picture of a BergePanther, this time towing a Ferdinand tank hunter.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 29, 2008)

Defensive emplacements in the Bergepanther, MG 34, 20 mm Solothurn 18-1000 rifle, or Flak 38 2cm gun.


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## Matt308 (Sep 29, 2008)

Nice post, CB.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 29, 2008)

Thank you Matt.  

*Firing test against the Panther:*

U.S. Army Test No.2

Firing Tests conducted 12-30 July 1944 by 1st U.S. Army in Normandy.

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF BOARD OF OFFICERS

Organization: Headquarters, First U.S. Army.
Place: APO 230, U.S. Army.
Proceddings of a board of officers which convened at Headquarters, First U.S. Army, pursuant to Special Order No.196, Headquarters, First U.S. Army, 19 July 1944, a copy of which is attached as Exhibit A1.

The board met pursuant to the foregoing order at Headquarters, First U.S. Army, APO 230, at 1400 on 12 July 1944 and on subsequent dates to conduct the firing tests. The final meeting was held on 30 July 1944.

Present: All Members.
Purpose: To conduct tests to determine the effectiveness of tank and anti-tank weapons in First U.S. Army, against the German Mk V "Panther" and Mk VI "Tiger" tanks. 

1a. Firing was conducted on terrain permitting 1500 yards maximum range with zero angle of site. All guns and types of ammunition, suitable for anti-tank purposes, available to First U.S. Army were defeated on targets whose armour plate was slightly burned. 

Upon determination of critical ranges, all penetrations were proven against the armor plate of a German Mk V "Panther" Tank with armor undamaged and in excellent condition. All firing was conducted normal2 to the target. No firing was conducted against the German Mk VI "Tiger" Tank as there were none available.

1b. The following normal types of tank and anti-tank weapons and ammunition were tested; 
WEAPON/AMMUNITION
Launcher, Rocket, AT, 2.36"Rocket, AT, 2.36", M6A1Launcher, Grenade, M8Grenade, AT, M9A137mm Gun, M6, Mounted on Light Tank, M5A1APC M5140mm Gun, M1, AAAP M5857mm Gun, M1APC M86Sabot 375mm Gun, M3, mounted on Medium Tank, M4APC M61HEAT M66 (Special)3-inch Gun, M5, mounted on Motor Carriage, M10APC M62, w/BDF M66A1AP M7990mm Gun, M1A1, AAAP M77105mm Howitzer, M4, mounted on Medium Tank, M4HEAT M67


1c. The board assumed that the effect of hollow charge ammunition is not dependent on terminal velocity but the effect does vary with the angle at which the projectile strikes. Hits approaching 90º angle of impact give better penetration.

2. Record of firing with Photographs. See Exhibit B1.
Findings: The board having carefully considered the evidence before it, finds that:

1) Launcher, Rocket, AT, 2.36"
Rocket, AT, 2.36", M6A1 will penetrate the side of the turret and the side and rear armor plate of the 'Panther' Tank at 100 yards. On the bassis of the assumption in paragraph 1c it follows that as the range increases, thereby reducing the angle of impact4 against the side of the turret and side armor plate, the possibility of penetration will materially decrease.

2) Launcher, Grenade, M8
Grenade, AT, M9A1, will penetrate the side of the turret and the side and rear plate of the 'Panther' Tank at 60 yards. On the basis of the assumption in paragraph 1c it follows that as the range increases, thereby reducing the angle of impact4 against the side of the turret and side armor plate, the possibility of penetration will materially decrease.

3) 37mm Gun, M6, Mounted on Light Tank, M5A1
APC, M51 will penetrate the sides and rear of the 'Panther' Tank at 600 yards.

4) 40mm Gun, M1, AA
AP, M58 will penetrate the sides and rear of the 'Panther' Tank at 600 yards.

5) 57mm Gun, M1
a) APC, M86 will penetrate the sides and rear of the 'Panther' Tank at 1500 yards.
b) *Sabot fails to penetrate front glacis slope plate and gun shield at 200 yards*. Due to difficulty experienced in obtaining hits no conclusion as to the effectiveness of this ammunition was reached.
6) 75mm Gun, M3, mounted on Medium Tank, M4
a) APC M61 will penetrate *the sides *and rear of the 'Panther' Tank up to 1500 yards. *APC M61 at 200 yards will not penetrate the front armor of the 'Panther' Tank*.

b) HEAT M66 (Special) will not penetrate the front glacis slope plate at 500 yards (see assumption made in paragraph 1c).

7) 3-inch Gun, M5, mounted on Motor Carriage, M10
a) APC M62, w/BDF M66A1 will not penetrate front glacis slope plate *at 200 yards*. Will penetrate gun mantlet at 200 yards and penetrate sides and rear of the 'Panther' Tank up to *1500 yards*.

b) AP M79 will not penetrate the front slope plate or the mantlet at 200 yards. It holds no advantage over APC M62 ammunition w/BDF M66A1.

8 ) 90mm Gun, M1A1, AA
AP M77 will penetrate front glacis slope plate up to 600 yards, the gun mantlet up to 1,000 yards and the turret up to 1,500 yards.

9) 105mm Howitzer, M4, mounted on Medium Tank, M4
HEAT M67 will penetrate front glacis slope plate and gun mantlet at 500 yards (see assumption made in paragraph 1c).
In addition to testing the normal types of tank and anti-tank weapons and ammunition, additional types were tested with the following results:

A) 75mm Gun, M3, mounted on Medium Tank, M4
WP M64 - Three rounds were fired at 500 yards for the purpose of obtaining an incendiary or blinding effect. The results were unsatisfactory.

B) 75mm Gun, M3, mounted on Medium Tank, M4
HE M48 w/fz T105 - Three rounds were fired at the front glacis slope plate at 500 yards to determine its armor penetrative characteristics. The rounds failed to penetrate, ricochetting from the plate and bursting in the air.


U.S. Test No.2


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 1, 2008)

*Panther Ausf. G "Ersatz M10" *







Probably the only tank variant in ww2 designed to violate any possible Hague convention.

In late 1944, Hitler was planning one last desperate offensive to attempt to obtain a separate peace from the Western Allies. The Wacht am Rhein plan was designed to split the British and American armies as well as capture Antwerp. This battle, of course, became known as the Battle of the Bulge in the West. As a part of the Wacht am Rhein plan was Operation Greif under the command of Otto Skorzeny. English speaking German commandos in American uniforms and using as much American equipment as possible would infiltrate American positions to seize bridges across the Meuse.

This unit, innoculously entitled Panzer Brigade 150 was supposed to consist of 3,300 men, 15 Sherman tanks, 32 armored cars (U.S.), 198 trucks, and 147 jeeps which had been requisition from OB West. Unfortunately for the brigade, the required equipment never materialized. Panzer Brigade 150 went into battle with only about 2,500 men and a dozen tanks and assault guns. Several of the tanks were Panther Ausf. G's extensively modified to look like U.S. M-10 tank destroyers.

Making a Panther look like an M-10 is no mean feat, and the conversion process was extensive to maintain the illusion. The turret was surrounded by sheet metal and made to resemble the M-10 turret. The mantelet was also altered. As the M-10 had an open-topped turret, all protrusions on the top of the Panther turret either had to be covered by the false side-walls or removed. This fact meant that the Panther's cupola was removed and a new split hatch was attached in it's place. The front and rear hull were also extensively modified to resemble the M-10.

While a few of the jeep commando teams easily slipped through American sentries and roamed freely behind American lines, but the rest of the unit languished with Sixth Panzer Armee. When it became apparent that no breakthrough was going to occur, the "Ersatz M-10's" were committed along with the rest of the brigade as a normal combat unit. Ultimately they did not cheat anybody, all of the vehicles faced a stubborn resistance by the US soldiers and were destroyed or disabled in the fighting.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 1, 2008)

Some photos of the Ersatz M-10 used by the SS Panzerbrigade 150 and destroyed in battle.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 5, 2008)

*Panzerkampfwagen Panther II*

With the publication of Thomas Jentz's Germany's Panther Tank: The Quest for Combat Supremacy, a good deal of controversy was created regarding the technical specifications of the Panther II. Many of the previous specifications were challenged by the Jentz work. Rather than taking one side or another in this debate, Technical Virtue will present both views and let the reader make their own decisions.

All sources agree that development of the Panther II started in early 1943. According to Jentz, the only initial difference between the Panther II and the Panther I was armor thickness (and, of course, the mass increase associated with the thicker armor), and It was not until February that plans for standardization of components between the Panther II and Tiger III (later renamed Tiger II) was planned. Spielberger contends that the commonality was seen as a major driving force behind the creation of the Panther II.

The Turret Controversy

Jentz maintains that the schmal Blendenausfuehrung turret to be used on the Panther II was not the Schmalturm of the Panther Ausf. F, much less the upgunned version. This view is based on Drawing No. H-Sk A 88176 from November of 1943 which details the machine gun mount for narrow mantelet turret for the Panther II. It, however, appears that no full drawing of this turret is available at present because the drawings rendered in 1995 for the Jentz book by Hilary Doyle show neither the turret nor the hull top hatches.

Oner thing is true, no complete prototype of the Panther II was ever made but an hybrid vehicle with the heavier armored hull ( 120 mm glacis, 60 mm sides) and a Panther ausf G turret , that was captured and could be seen today in Patton Museum of Fort Knox, USA.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 7, 2008)

*Self Propelled artillery on Panther Chassis, Rheinmetall Borsig proposals.*

The first Rheinmetall attemp to fullfill a requeriment for a self propelled howitzers and cannons that could be dismounted come out in July 1942 , time in wich the Panther was merelya prototype.
The WaPrüf 4 showed little interest in the series design because the always short supply of Panther for other than main battle tank use.

However Rheimetall was undeterred and continue to produce design drawings until december 1944, some of them using completely new weapons and components, the most prominent of that was a big multichamber muzzle brake in the main guns. 
Some examples :

*12,8 cm K43 slf, january 1943. 128mm dual purpose gun in a high elevation mount and dismountable shield.*







*12,8 cm Skorpion. april 1943*, this "poisonous" design was one for a direct support/tank killer 128 mm self propelled gun. The gun had a separated charge projectile with a muzzle speed of 850 mps.







*15 cm schweres Feld Haubitze Panther Bauteilen*, 150 mm heavy howitzer april 1943. Not really a Panther chassis but a longer vehicle using several components of the Pz V.






This was clearly a "waffenträger", the "casemate" shield and gun was designed to used mostly from the ground, the mechanic elements to dismount the gun ( jacks and winch) was carried in the rear and aft of the vehicle.

All profile drawings by Hillary L. Doyle


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 8, 2008)

*Self Propelled artillery on Panther Chassis, Krupp proposals.*

The Krupp proposals for a self propelled artillery vehicle on Panther were by far more simple than the RB. A example was this 105mm armed armed vehicle, rejected for series manufacturing by pressure of Guderian, the general was unwilling to gave away standar tanks for special purposes. :


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 9, 2008)

Panther in action is the Baltic states, probably doing its best bussines as a powerful mobile antitank plataform.

extract from: _Osprey Vanguard 21, the Panther Medium Tank_


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## Airframes (Oct 9, 2008)

Have to say, CB, this is an excellent series so far. Thanks,
Terry.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 9, 2008)

Thank you very much, I am trying to be as informative as possible.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 13, 2008)

*The death of a Panther.*

City of Köln ( Cologne) 3th march 1945, breaking the resistance of the army and Volkssturm militia, the US army 3rd armored Div penetrate in the city, in the streets near the cathedral some combat took place between a Panther and 3 Div tanks, The following images show the destruction of a Panther by a brand new M26 Pershing.

*The Panther hits a Sherman with a single shot, the tank is wrecked, 2 of the crew bailed out seriously wounded.*







*The Pershing advancing by the side street at full trottle and shoot in the move, the Panther is hit in the rear hull*.







Given the position of the panzer turret is probably that the german gunner was about to open fire...but the stabilization in the Pershing allowed it to shoot first.

*The german tank commander crawls out , in the meanwhile the ammunition cook off....*



















*the MG 34 gunner tries to get out...*


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 13, 2008)

*The death of a Panther (II)*

The driver scapes...












another figure emerges from the turret, maybe the gunner or loader...












*The Panther is hit again, the 90 mm AP round penetrates the mantlet, 110 mm of hard german steel are defeated. Unthinkable achivement with a Sherman...but the Pershing is other story*


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 13, 2008)

*The Death of a Panther (III)*

When the combat camera guy get focus again the driver completed its scape, somehow he managed to survive the last 90 mm hit, however one of the crew in the turret did not.











*The Panther is hit the third and last time, flames erupted everywhere...the kill is completed.*



























And this is the final state, the heat softened the internal torsion bars lowering the height of the tank.


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## Airframes (Oct 13, 2008)

What a superb series of frames! Fantastic work, CB. Thanks again!


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 13, 2008)

Thank you, thank you, You can see the complete secuence here:

ww2 german panther tank footage - Google Vídeo

The Panther belonged to the Panzerregiment 33 of the 9th Panzer Division.

And the Pershing crew.


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## Soren (Oct 13, 2008)

At the range this combat action took place a Sherman Easy Eight could've done the same. 

Overall the Pershing wasn't a very good tank being underpowered, extremely unreliable and both underarmed armoured compared to the opposition.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 13, 2008)

Maybe but I dont think the 76mm could go trough a 110mm round face hardened mantlet, even at short range no matter what the penetration tables tell me.


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## Soren (Oct 14, 2008)

The range at which the combat took place was less than 100m, and seeing that the armour quality on the late Panther marks wasn't the best I'm pretty sure the 76mm gun could punch a hole in the gun mantlet of the Panther at that range as-well.

PS: Why do you say _"nomatter what the penetration tables tell me"_ ? Do you have some kind of knowledge regarding armour penetration that the specialists do not ?

The 76mm L/52 gun could punch through 125mm of vertical 240 BHN RHA armour at 100m, so if the angle was straight it would've gone through the mantlet as-well.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 14, 2008)

Is just a hunch as the metal worker that I am. According to tables the 6 pounders with apds ammo could penetrate the Panther glacis at 300 meters , but the fact was in test it did not pierce that plate, not even at point blank ranges.

But everybody is free to believe wathever they like, if anybody agree that the Sherman 76 mm could penetrate a Panther mantlet ...is fine for me. I am not going to make a scene with that.


*Panther Ausf. G. Kampfgruppe Peiper, 1th Div. Panzer SS. La Gleize, Belgium*


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## Soren (Oct 14, 2008)

The tables don't suggest a 6 pdr APDS round could penetrate the Panthers glacis at all Charles, quite the opposite. Remember the effects of slope, the Panther's glacis is sloped 55 degree's from the vertical. 

I've got the Aberdeen test results for each gun against vertical 240 BHN RHA armour, and using the slope multipliers the 6 pdr APDS round isn't even close to being able to penetrate the Panther's glacis.

Anyway lets move on..


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## Airframes (Oct 14, 2008)

Quick question, Charles. In the sequence, you have shown that the Panther was from 9th Pz. Div. Was this 9th, or 9th. S.S. Hohenstaufen? This is purely for my own interest. BTW, I would suggest that the Panther in the sequence, and certainly the one in the 'still' shot showing it burnt out, is not a late model, but an Ausf. A. 
Thanks, Terry.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 14, 2008)

Is the same , I think they moved out the way with some tractor.

Sorry but I could not tell if that tank is Heer or SS 9th.



> The tables don't suggest a 6 pdr APDS round could penetrate the Panthers glacis at all Charles, quite the opposite. Remember the effects of slope, the Panther's glacis is sloped 55 degree's from the vertical



Oh Jesus Christ gime me some patiente, give me some patiente to withstand this guy.

Why you tell me that the glacis plate in the Panther is sloped 55 degress ?

Do you think that I didnt knew that ?

The penetration tables for the apds 1944 57 mmm british round did say that the british gun is capable to penetrate the Panther glacis at 200 or 300 meters away, I dont care ( I repeat) *dont care *whatever you can tell about it.


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## Airframes (Oct 14, 2008)

Thanks for the answer Charles. Do you happen to have any pics of Panthers known to be taken at Arnhem in September '44? I haven't yet seen any of 9th or 10th SS Panzer at that battle, except PzKfw III and Stug. Would love to see some if you have, thanks again, Terry.


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## Soren (Oct 14, 2008)

You seem to be a very easily agitated person Charles, take it easy there.



> The penetration tables for the apds 1944 57 mmm british round did say that the british gun is capable to penetrate the Panther glacis at 200 or 300 meters away, I dont care ( I repeat) dont care whatever you can tell about it.



Well then you don't care about the truth I guess.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 14, 2008)

> Thanks for the answer Charles. Do you happen to have any pics of Panthers known to be taken at Arnhem in September '44? I haven't yet seen any of 9th or 10th SS Panzer at that battle, except PzKfw III and Stug. Would love to see some if you have, thanks again, Terry.



Sure you are talking about this one;









> History
> In the aftermath of the failed Arnhem offensive the British 6th Guards Tank Brigade was engaged in heavy fighting to gain control of the small Dutch village called Overloon. It was during these fierce battles that tankers of the 4th Armoured Battalion - Coldstream Guards, one of the 2 tank battalions in the brigade, entered a large barn, only to find a Panther tank of the PanzerAbteiling 2, Panzer Brigade 107. This Panther was in running order and quickly put to work in the staff units of the brigade. The use of this captured vehicle was a unique event, so it appears more than once in the official history of the brigade. (6)
> 
> After some adjustments were made to the appearance of the vehicle (more about that later) this Panther was used to help the artillery barrage on the Geijsteren castle, just north of Venlo, on the Meuse River. The tank was christened “Cuckoo”, which seems to be an appropriate name for such a strange “bird”
> ...



Cuckoo




> Well then you don't care about the truth I guess.



You are doing some desperate effort to disrupt the topic are you ?


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## Airframes (Oct 15, 2008)

Great pic and great info Charles. Thank you very much indeed!
I'd heard about the 'Panther in the barn', but never seen it.
Thanks again. 
Terry.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 15, 2008)

> Great pic and great info Charles. Thank you very much indeed



You are welcome.
I find another photo of the "Cuckoo" , the Panzer is attacking some germans entrenched in a castle northern Holland.






Definately this was the best "british" tank of WW2" and the only with zimmerit.


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## Micdrow (Oct 15, 2008)

CharlesBronson said:


> You are doing some desperate effort to disrupt the topic are you ?





Word of warning to you both cool off!!! Charles I edited your post. This subject is closed. Keep it civil and to the topic please.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 15, 2008)

Here we go again, people acting like children.

Somehow it always involves Soren (don't worry Soren I am not blaming you for this one though, but you are still involved...).

How is that it always involves you Soren?

Now having said that, I am backing up Micdrow on this. If it gets out of hand again, thread is closed and the guilty parties (notice I said parties not party) will go on an extended vacation from this site.

*We Mods are sick and tired of this childish bullshit! That goes for any thread!*


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 15, 2008)

Sorry, maybe I overreacted a bit.

*Anti-Aircraft vehicles on Panther chassis. 8,8 cm Flak 41/L74 aus Panther Bauteilen*

This projekt "with Panther elements" was iniciated in november 1942. Its wasnt a Panther chassis exactly but a more longer one ( 1 meter) and had small changes in final transmition gears.

A thin plate of armor cover the gun mounting the and gunners/loaders, there was no top cover since it was fully exposed to the elements.

The Reinhmetall 8,8 Flak 41 was a extremely powerful weapon. It had an initial speed of 1000 meters per second and a stimated effective ceiling of 10700 meters. To improved the vehicle stability when its engaged targets and low elevation four outriggers were provided. These were deployed by a hidraulic means.

The open turret was fully traversible by hand and its can be elevated from -3 to 89º. The lower elevation allow the use of the Flak 41 as antitank gun.

*Mockup at full elevation.*






The waffeamnt stop the development of this panzer because they correctly feel that to protect an armored formation a fast fire medium caliber gun plataform was needed, and not a mobile heavy flak since this task could be cover with other means like towed guns and armored trains.


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## Soren (Oct 15, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Here we go again, people acting like children.
> 
> Somehow it always involves Soren (don't worry Soren I am not blaming you for this one though, but you are still involved...).
> 
> How is that it always involves you Soren?



Did I act childish ? I just said it how it is, as usual. Guess some people can't take that.

As for why I'm supposedly always involved, well probably because I don't give in to arrogance and bullying, never have and never will.


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## Soren (Oct 15, 2008)

CharlesBronson said:


> Sorry, maybe I overreacted a bit.



Yeah I'd like to know why you acted like that ? Have I offended you somehow ? Have I ever called you something ?

I'm puzzled here...


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## Airframes (Oct 15, 2008)

Thanks yet again Charles, especially for the 'action' pic and the profile. It brings it all together nicely, and would make a good subject for a model.
Terry.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 15, 2008)

I find another, well...not primarily aiming to this tank , but still you can see it at the end of this Churchill colunm. Despite the Churchill was specially designed for bad terrain the Panther had better mobility.


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## B-17engineer (Oct 15, 2008)

Airframes said:


> Thanks yet again Charles, especially for the 'action' pic and the profile. It brings it all together nicely, and would make a good subject for a model.
> Terry.



Agreed Terry, I just have to read this thread start to finish cause I would like to up my knowlegde on tanks. Thanks guys for the information and pictures


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 15, 2008)

You are welcomed, the source of this last picture is:


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## rochie (Oct 16, 2008)

great info charles i'd never heard the story of cuckoo before it was a great read thanks


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 16, 2008)

Soren said:


> Did I act childish ? I just said it how it is, as usual. Guess some people can't take that.
> 
> As for why I'm supposedly always involved, well probably because I don't give in to arrogance and bullying, never have and never will.



Did I say you were?

I said the whole arguement and situation was childish, and that you always seem to be involved. I even said you were not to be blamed for it, but that you were invovled.

Understand?

Man sometimes it is like talking to a






Now lets move on from this, and carry on with the on topic discussion.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 16, 2008)

> great info charles i'd never heard the story of cuckoo before it was a great read thanks



Yuo are welcome, the russians used some Panther too, however they complained about the ( suposedly) excessive maintenance required by the Maybach engine and transmition.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 17, 2008)

*Anti-Aircraft vehicles on Panther chassis (II) 2 cm MG 151 Flakvierling.*

Design dated december 1942, this used a completely new turret with a cuadruple mounting of 20mm cannons. The curious fact was it didnt used the army Rheinmetall Flak 38 guns but the Air Force Mauser MG 151/20 with a higher rate of fire and lesser muzzle velocity.






The guns were placed in pairs above each other off centered, probably to provide a wider pattern of fire. Combined rate of fire exceeded the 3000 rpm .
Effective ceiling was 600 meters. Muzzle velocity in the Mauser guns : 720-780 mps. ( for more info in Mauser MG 151 check my Luftwaffe guns topic in the technical section)

The +85º and -3 elevation teorically allowed to engage ground target with devastating effects against infantry and soft skinned vehicles.
Aiming was provide by a periscopic binocular paralel gunsight with 1,5 x magnification and 28 mm wide. Frontal armor in the turret was 100mm, and 45 mm in the sides. Remained as design projeckt only, not even a prototype was made of this interesting flakpanzer panther.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 19, 2008)

*Anti-Aircraft vehicles on Panther chassis (III) Flakpanzer Cölian mit 3,7cm Flakzwilling 43.*






Design of december 1943. again the effort to produce a heavy antiaircraft plataform saw the Panther chassi used , this time with a pair of Rheinmetal Borsig 37mm Flak 43 guns. the flak 43 was a modified variant of the army Flak 36 designed to be manufactured with more stamped and welded parts saving weight and money.

Its rate of fire was 160 rpm per barrel. The twin mounting had a maximum elevation of +86º and a -3º depression. A coincidence rangefinder and a periscopic gunsight were mounted in teh turret roof to help aim and range stimation.






The development of this variant was tranfered to Vereinige Apparatebau. a Rehinmetall Borsig subsidiary wiich worked to manufacture a turret with a fast revolving movement and tested the complexities to engage an air moving target from inside the armored cover.
Just a prototype with full scale wooden turret on Ausf D chassis was completed and displayed in mid 1944.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 26, 2008)

Some more images of the Panther with infrared illuminating devices.

















Worth to mention the the nightfighting Panther should be used acompanied by infantry using "Vampyr" IR sights in their MP 44s, and also for special variant of the Sd.Kfz 251 with large IR searchlight for iluminating and marking target for the Panthers guns. That combat formation was called "Sperber" and seems just one entered in action before wars end.

It was quite high tech for the time.


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## m kenny (Oct 26, 2008)

The first photo above (a Panther with IR) is a fake.
Axis WWII Discussion Group: IR Panther KOed in Falaise


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 26, 2008)

This was the Sd Kfz 251 variant with infrared searchlight, not a Panther but I think is logical to post it here as it is an accesory to the Panther units:

*Sd.Kfz 251 with night vision searchlight*:

The "Biwa" infrared sight (connected to weapons) with an observation range of 300 to 400 meters is still being developed. Finally in October 1944, 10 m.SPW (Sd.Kfz.251) were transferred directly to a firm for installation of "Uhu" (owl) equipment.






On 8 August 1944, the m.Schtz.Pz.Wg. (Uhu) (Sd.Kfz.251/20) was listed as being outfitted with one Fu 8 and one Fu 5 radio sets as well as a Bordsprechanlage (intercom system). As listed on 15 November 1944, the (Sd.Kfi.251120) was to be armed with an M.G.42 and an M.P.40 and outfitted with one 60 cm searchlight, one 20 cm searchlight, one BG 1251 (infrared sight), and one FG 1252 (infrared sight).60cm "red light" projector.






Six Sd.Kfz.251120 were sent by rail to Putlos, leaving on 7 March 1945, and nine Sd.Kfi.251120 were sent by rail to Bergen, also leaving on 7 March 1945. The only recorded operational employment of the "Uhu" was ordered by the Generalinspekteur der Panzertruppen on 12 February 1945 with the assignment of the 1 .Kompanie/Panzer-Abteilung 10 1 of the Fuehrer-Grenadier-Division to complete company-strength troop trials. 

This unit was to be issued 10 Panthers with F.G.1250 infrared sights and three Sd.Kfz.251120 with built in B.G.1251 (Uhu). On 26 March 1945, Major Woellwarth and Hauptmann Rietz reported on the action of the first company equipped with infrared sights for night combat. The infrared equipment had performed successfully without any breakdowns.

The "uhu" device was designed to be the main illuminating device for the projected "sperber" _nachtkampfgruppen, _night combat units equipped with panthers and Grenadiers using Stg-44 rifles with the _vampyr_ night vision scope.

_*Beobachtung Gerät BG 1251*_ (20 cm searchlight) y *Fern Gerät* *FG 1252*, ( long distance sighting device) for the half track driver.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 29, 2008)

*Panther with 8,8 centimeters KwK in narrow Turret.*

In a meeting of the Entwicklungskommission Panzer on 23 January 1945, Oberst Holzhaeuer (Wa Pruef 6) reported that development of a Panther with the 8.8 cm KwK L/71 in a Panther- Schmalturm was to be accomplished by Daimler-Benz. The turret ring diameter was to be 100 mm larger than the current Panther turret with an increase in weight of about one metric ton.

*Drawing No. Hln B-130 dated 18 October 1944 was created by Krupp as a proposal for fitting the 8,8 cm KwK43 L/71 into a Panther Schmalturm with minimal modification. There was very limited space available for loading the long (1167 mm) high explosive round.* 







Ammunition stowage amounted to 56 rounds in comparison to 103 rounds previously stowed in the Panther. A wooden model had been completed. An experimental model in soft steel had yet to be fabricated. General-Major Thomale (Insp.Gen.d.Pz.Tr.) stated that the planetary gear final drive was absolutely necessary for a Panther with the 8.8 cm KwK L/71 and that it would be necessary to conduct studies on ammunition stowage and loading in the soft steel model.

Some of the characteritics were:

-Elevation from minus 8 through plus 15 degrees. 

-Only the previous 8,8 cm KwK43 developed for the Tiger II was acceptable. 

-The recoil and return cylinders were to be mounted above the gun with the bore evacuation cylinder in the middle. 

-The muzzle brake was to be dropped.

-The trunnions were to be relocated. 

- A smooth armor plate for the turret front with the small possible apertures for the main gun and machinegun. 

-The iddle of the trunnions were to be located on the forward edge of the front plate. 

-A turmfernmesser, turret rangefinder was to be included. An attempt was to be made to use the already available 1,32 m or 1,65 m rangefinders designed for Panzerkampfwagen

The war ended before the model was fully completed but is not wrong to say that given the extreme limited room left by the instalation of the heavier and larger main gun the Panther ausf F o Panther II equipped in this way would be extremely unconfortable for the crew, specially the "ladenschutze" ( loader).

*The Krupp proposal for fitting the 8,8 cm KwK43 L/71 into the Panther Schmalturm, drawing dated november 1944.*


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## TempestMKV (Nov 27, 2008)

CharlesBronson said:


> Yuo are welcome, the russians used some Panther too, however they complained about the ( suposedly) excessive maintenance required by the Maybach engine and transmition.







> Maybach HL210
> The engine was rushed into production without all the bugs being worked out. *The engine could not be reliably operated at its maximum power output of 3000 rpms and indeed the operating manual given to the Tiger crews, the Tigerfibel, recommended no more than 2600 rpms*. It soon became obvious that the Tiger I was seriously underpowered. Because of the tight engine compartment and other technical limitations it was impossible to install a physically larger, more powerful motor. As a result the original engines displacement was increased by replacing the aluminum cylinder block with a cast iron block and boring it out to 23.88 liters (1457 cubic inches). This increased the weight of the motor but also increased the rigidity. The result was a gain in power to 700bhp at 3000rpm. The new engine was designated the Maybach HL 230 TRM P45.
> 
> Maybach HL230
> ...




I think there were 3 reasons why Panzer had so many engine failure(overheating, catching fire and buring lubricating oil etc ) in 1943 summer.

1)The engine of Panzer D is tweaked to 700PS which is beyond the actual ability of HL230. Gemran was overclocking a CPU then. 

2) Hot Summer 

3) full fording equipment



> The Panther ausf D had a full fording equipment wich was capable to be installed in 30 min and gave the capabilities go trough calm waters up to 4 meters deep, this commoditie was delEted in the ausf A variant because slowed manufacturing and decreased the airflow to engine radiators





> The Panther was powered by a 700 PS (690 hp, 515 kW)/3000 rpm, 23.1 litre Maybach HL 230 P30 V-12 petrol engine that drove two front drive sprockets via the gearbox and steering unit. The engine was generally considered reliable, and had a fatigue life of up to 2000 kilometers. *In order to minimize engine failures, the Panther engines were fitted with a governor in late 1943 that limited the engine revolutions to 2500 rpm and power to 600 PS (592 hp, 441 kW). *The installation of the governor also dropped the tank's top speed from 55 km/h to 46 km/h.



However, even 600PS @2500rpms is a bit overloaded for HL230! The average no-failure time is only 70 hours, need overhaul every 100 hours, engine scapped without overhaul every 120 hours. After WWII french army tested panzers and found that the average engine life is only 1000km, the final drivers life is merely 150 km! Finally those french showed their respect/sympathy to german maintenance staff. It is said that panzer's avarage mileage in every battle is only 25km!

Another proof is the overheat of exaust pipes in 1945 early which demonstate HL230 is even overloaded at 600PS /2500 rpms, I think only [email protected]/2500rpms can achieve the reliability of allied/USSR tank engine.

Anyway, the output demand of German panzer/tiger exceeded the actual ability of german tank engine technology in WWII.

The final drive failure even existed in 1944 late, every abondoned panzer by german in normandy had a final drive problem.


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## Soren (Nov 27, 2008)

I'd like to see a source for the claim that the HL230 didn't run reliably at 700 HP Tempest (And Battlefield.ru is NOT a reliable source btw). Also I have to ask, again, is Tempest just another nick for Schwarzpanzer ??


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## CharlesBronson (Nov 27, 2008)

> )The engine of Panzer D is tweaked to 700PS which is beyond the actual ability of HL230. Gemran was overclocking a CPU then.
> 
> 2) Hot Summer
> 
> 3) full fording equipment



I agree, actually I think I ve mentioned some related to the engine limitations before, the usable power is most of the times quoted as 650hp at 2500 rpm.

Is very clear that if you tried to drive the Maybach at full trottle all the time you going to be on foot very soon.


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## Soren (Nov 27, 2008)

By 1944 all the engine issues had been solved and the engine ran very reliably at 700 PS, and this is well documented. 

And I have no idea where Tempest/Schwarzpanzer got the idea that German engine technology wasn't up to the task, esp. when they were ahead of Allies in this department throughout the war.


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## TempestMKV (Nov 28, 2008)

Soren said:


> By 1944 all the engine issues had been solved and the engine ran very reliably at 700 PS, and this is well documented.
> 
> And I have no idea where Tempest/Schwarzpanzer got the idea that German engine technology wasn't up to the task, esp. when they were ahead of Allies in this department throughout the war.



allied and axis technology is on same level.
German can't produce UFO ,soren. 
Tempest is not ****panzer's nick name.

The last one I can tell you: From 1901 to 1945,US and UK 's science/technology outcome is 3 time as german's.
Believe in historian,plz.

See:

<<A Thousand Years of Science and Scientists:988 to 1988>>


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## Soren (Nov 29, 2008)

TempestMKV said:


> allied and axis technology is on same level.



No not quite actually. The Germans were ahead in most scientific fields from the start of WW2 and to the finish. The fields of science where the Germans were clearly ahead until the very end were aerodynamics (And physics in general actually), chemistry electronics.

Germany had actually been the leader in technology since way before WW2, and continued to be so until the end of WW2, after which it still continued to be the leader in many areas right up till today actually.

Ever heard of the University of Göttingen and the labs there ? Most of the great mathematicians phycisist of the 19th 20th century went there. Or how about the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute, Max Planck Institute etc etc ? I guess you never heard of these either?

The Laboratory of Göttingen was the main center of theoretical and mathematical aerodynamics and fluid dynamics research from soon after 1904 and till the end of WW2, completely leading the way throughout WW2. 

Because of this, since 1904 and throughout WW2, the Germans were ahead in aerodynamics, esp. high speed aerodynamics, Adolf Busemann Ludwig Prandtl being responsibe for the greatest advances in areodynamics in history. Ludwig Prandtl, the farther of modern aerodynamics, coining the term boundary layer and founding modern mathematical aerodynamics. Prandtl was the absolute undisputed leader in the field of aerodynamics/fluid dynamics throughout the war.

Adolf Busemann was the foremost expert in supersonic aerodynamics, and with the help of Prandtl he was the first to discover establish the characteristics, advantages disadvantages of the swepped wing. Hence why the Germans were deploying and designing swepped winged jet a/c during WW2, long before anyone else. The famous German designer Hans Multhopp was also an expert in this area. 

Hence why the Germans were fielding the best fighters and most advanced a/c of WW2, the below examples being completely unrivalled: 

Me-262A-1a 
Ta-152H C
He-162A-2
FW-190 D-12 13
Ar-234B-2
He-277
Ju-388

The German advances in aerodynamics was also the reason why they were the leaders in ballistics research and designs, designing producing the best projectiles of WW2. German rifles, machineguns etc etc were firing heavy boattailed spitzer projectiles (Designation: FMJ-BT) with very high Ballistic Coefficients, and many other specialized types, while nearly all other countries, including the US, still used flat based Spitzer bullets from the first world war. Spitzer bullets (Sharp pointed bullet) are a German/French design btw and were revolutionary in WW1. 

German snipers could because of their better and more accurate projectiles also hit their targets more precisely at longer ranges than Allied snipers, a great tactical advantage on the open battlefield.

The Germans were also the leaders in rocket science, being the first to deploy self guided ballsitic missiles and air to air rockets. 

Germany was also the leader in radar infrared techonology, producing the best infrared imaging and being the first to deploy infrared equipment on smallarms AFV's, a good number of vehicles (Inclduing the Pzkpfw.V Panther) being equipped with this in late 44 on the western front and enjoying amazing success.

And like we all know the Germans were also waay ahead throughout the war when it came to designing and building tanks, fielding the unrivalled Pzkpfw. VI Ausf.B King Tiger Pzkpfw. V Panther and their subvariants.

On top of this the Germans were also the undisputed leaders in smallarms gun design, designing building the best most powerful guns of WW2, most notably the unrivalled examples below:

Smallarms
MG-42, the best machinegun of WW2 and all time.
MG-34, the second best machine gun of WW2.
FG-42, one of the most advanced smallarms of WW2, a supurb LMG.
StG.44, THE best smallarm of WW2.
M98, the best bolt action rifle of all time.

Aircraft armament
30mm Mk-108
30mm Mk-103
20mm MG151/20
15mm MG151

Big guns
128mm KwK/PaK 44 L/55 L/61, the most powerful AT gun of WW2.
88mm KwK/PaK 43 L/71, the best tank AT gun of WW2.
75mm KwK/PaK 42 L/70, the second best tank gun of WW2.
170mm K-18, the best heavy artillery piece of WW2.

And the list goes on....

Furtermore the Germans were producing the best most precise optics in the world, Zeiss Dialytan developing and providing optics for tanks, smallarms, guns, U-boats etc etc of unrivalled quality precision.

And talking about U-boats, again the Germans were way ahead with their revolutionary electro boats, the type XXI XXIII.



> Tempest is not ****panzer's nick name.



Seems it is from your postings.



> The last one I can tell you: From 1901 to 1945,US and UK 's science/technology outcome is 3 time as german's.
> Believe in historian,plz.



Well that's very untrue I'm afraid, check your history.


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## Soren (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh and before we take this any further let's do it another place, this is Charles's thread about the Panther and its' variants, not a place for us to discuss.


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## Kurfürst (Nov 30, 2008)

CharlesBronson said:


> I agree, actually I think I ve mentioned some related to the engine limitations before, the usable power is most of the times quoted as 650hp at 2500 rpm.
> 
> Is very clear that if you tried to drive the Maybach at full trottle all the time you going to be on foot very soon.



Limitation imposed to preserve engine life and inability to run at maximum output are two very different things.

I believe in the case of the Maybach 230 the limitation was to avoid unnecessary engine wear, which seems logical given that the maximum torque was already produced by engine at 2500.

Personally, I have never seen any evidence to that the 2500 rpm governing was put in use because of troubles with the final drive or the engine itself.


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## CharlesBronson (Nov 30, 2008)

> Personally, I have never seen any evidence to that the 2500 rpm governing was put in use because of troubles with the final drive or the engine itself


Pobably in a desperate situation that limit was reached...and also exceeded.

*Ausf A in Hungary 1944.*


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## TempestMKV (Nov 30, 2008)

Kurfürst said:


> Limitation imposed to preserve engine life and inability to run at maximum output are two very different things.
> 
> I believe in the case of the Maybach 230 the limitation was to avoid unnecessary engine wear, which seems logical given that the maximum torque was already produced by engine at 2500.
> 
> Personally, I have never seen any evidence to that the 2500 rpm governing was put in use because of troubles with the final drive or the engine itself.



Wwkipedia about Panther
Panther tank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




> Engine
> The Panther was powered by a 700 PS (690 hp, 515 kW)/3000 rpm, 23.1 litre Maybach HL 230 P30 V-12 petrol engine that drove two front drive sprockets via the gearbox and steering unit. The engine was generally considered reliable, and had a fatigue life of up to 2000 kilometers. In order to minimize engine failures, the Panther engines were fitted with a governor in late 1943 that limited the engine revolutions to 2500 rpm and power to 600 PS (592 hp, 441 kW). The installation of the governor also dropped the tank's top speed from 55 km/h to 46 km/h.




[email protected]/h on road, 15.6PS/ton

[email protected]/h on road. 13.3PS/ton 




> The engine has a volume of 23,095 cm³ (approx. 1,925 cm³ per cylinder) and a maximum output of 700 PS (690 hp, 515 kW) at 3,000 rpm. Maximum torque is 1850 Nm at 2,100 rpm. Typical output was 600 PS (592 hp, 441 kW) at 2,500 rpm.
> 
> The crankcase and block are made of cast grey iron. The cylinder heads are made from cast-iron. The engine weighs 1200 kg and its dimensions are 1000 x 1190 x 1310 mm. Aspiration is provided by four twin-choke Solex type 52JFF carburettors.



Maybach HL230 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Soren (Nov 30, 2008)

What the Wikipedia source fails to say is that the engine reliability issues were solved in early 44, and the engine governor was dropped. By early 44 the HL230 engines in the Panthers Tigers were running safely and reliably at 700 PS continious power.


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## Kurfürst (Dec 1, 2008)

TempestMKV said:


> Wwkipedia about Panther
> Panther tank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I see, but wikipedia is an open source that everyone and anyone can edit; personal opinion is heavily influencing the content of the articles, and in this case, it seems to be an opinion that the regulation was done to prevent failures, as no references is cited for it.

To me, the limitations to 2500 rpm seems to be a good practice to preserve engine lifespan while at the same time not effecting the tanks mobility in practical terms (as the last 500 rpm only gave the tank some extra speed, but no more extra torque that would be useful).


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## m kenny (Dec 1, 2008)

Soren said:


> Germany was also the leader in radar infrared techonology, producing the best infrared imaging and being the first to deploy infrared equipment on smallarms AFV's a good number of vehicles (Inclduing the Pzkpfw.V Panther) being equipped with this in late 44 on the western front and enjoying amazing success.



This is a cut and paste from the very same claim you made earlier this year
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/german-weaponology-12294-2.html#post332637
so why do you repeat it when you know it isn't true? 
Perhaps this time instead of ignoring reality you could provide the examples where this 'amazing success' happened and thus show you are not making it all up. 

Further demolition of your other claims can be found in the same thread:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/german-weaponology-12294.html


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## CharlesBronson (Dec 1, 2008)

*Aditional info on Pantherturm/pantherstellung.*


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## CharlesBronson (Dec 5, 2008)

*Antiaircraft vehicles on Panther (IV) Flakpanzer Cölian 341 mit 3,7cm Flakzwilling 44. *

In October of 1944 the Cölian was proposed as platform of a new armament. That was a pair of guns Flak 44 of 37mm mounted on chssis ausf G, this gun was a new design of Reinhmetall. Basically it was an aeronautical gun MK 103 adapted to receive the case of 263 mm in length of the projectile of 37 mm, it was operated by gases and belt fed.
it had a combined rate of fire of 500 rpm.
In order to lodge the gas conduct, the emplacement of the guns and mantlet of the twin assembly was modified. It also adapt a system of belt fed to this location to allow a fire with less interruptions (originally it was loaded with clips of 8 shots) 

Effective ceiling stimated in 2500 meters. 

The causes that finished this project were two: 

A) Problems in the belt fed when the gun obtained its maximum elevation (85º) 

B) The insistence of the WaffenAmt in an automatic gun of heavier caliber (superior to 37mm)


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## CharlesBronson (Dec 7, 2008)

3 more drawings of the *Flakpanzer Cölian 341* mit 3,7cm Flakzwilling 44.
In the second the polish illlustrator ( J Kolacha) made a little mistake, the guns could not elevate 90ª. It remained as projeckt only.


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## Soren (Dec 8, 2008)

m kenny said:


> This is a cut and paste from the very same claim you made earlier this year
> http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/german-weaponology-12294-2.html#post332637
> so why do you repeat it when you know it isn't true?
> Perhaps this time instead of ignoring reality you could provide the examples where this 'amazing success' happened and thus show you are not making it all up.
> ...



Nope, no demolition going on. You again just making stuff up.

Now stop being an arse and discontinue your childish attempts at derailing this thread.


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## CharlesBronson (Dec 14, 2008)

*Panther as Rocket launcher platform.*

Skoda design for a 105 mm panzerschreck armed Panther. ( German armored rarities M.Sawodny)


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## Catch22 (Jan 24, 2009)

Grat info!


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## CharlesBronson (Jan 25, 2009)

Thank you, I need to add some about the JagdPanther wich is after all an specializated variant of the Panther.


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 4, 2009)

*The JagdPanther ( Sonderkraftfahrzeug Nr 173)*

The Jagdpanther was the most sucessful variant of the Panther other than the main battle tank and it was designed from the start to carry the mighty 8,8 pak 43. This gun had a longer barrel and cartrigde case, improving considerabely the penetration power with relation to the Kwk 36 mounted in Tiger 1.

After the installation in the Elefant the german army sought a lighter, cheaper and more realiable plataform, like the panzer IV, but eventually it was considered too small chassis for this gun and the Panther was choosed instead.

*The predecessor, Panzer IV mit 8,8 cm Pak 43.*






*Early development:*


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 4, 2009)

*Jadgpanther , production and characteristics:*

After tests of prototypes, it was then ordered to start the full-scale production in December of 1943. Jagdpanther’s production at MIAG (Muhlenbau-Industrie AG) in Braunschweig started in January of 1944, while at MNH (Maschinenfabrik Niedersachsischen-Hanover) in Hannover in November of 1944. During the production, third assembly plant - MBA (Maschinenbau und Bahnbedarf) in Postdam-Brewitz also started producing Jagdpanthers. It was planned that production will reach output of 150 vehicles per month, but the highest output was in January of 1945, when 72 were produced. 

*A picture of one of the very first vehicles to be manufactured in october 1943, note the single block barreland pistol port in the side, characteristics that were deleted later*







Overall from December of 1943 to March of 1945, only 392 were produced (chassis numbers 300001 to unknown and 303001 to unknown), although some sources state that about 413 to 417 were made since production continued until April of 1945 or 425 until May of 1945. The total number of Jagdpanthers produced was a direct result of Allied bomber raids, which caused much destruction and disruption at two production centers (MIAG and MNH).

Jagdpanther was based on standard Panther chassis with superstructure being an extension of the upper front hull (80mm thick armor) and side (50mm thick armor) plates. The new superstructure housed the fighting compartment with main hatch in the rear wall that was used by the crew to enter and exit the vehicle as well to load the ammunition. 

Two other hatches were mounted on the roof of the superstructure. Jagdpanther’s equipment differed from Panther’s, only in hatch covers and small number of other components. The vehicle weighted 46 tons and was powered by 12 cylinder Maybach HL 230 P30 23.1 liter gasoline engine capable of making Jagdpanther reach maximum speed of 46km/h (average road speed was 25km/h). 

Its fuel capacity was 700 liters and maximum range on road was 160km. Jagdpanther used Zahnradfabrik AK 7-200 transmission (7 forward and 1 reverse gear), later upgraded with newer and strengthened AK 7-400.

Jagdpanther was operated by five men crew - commander, gunner, loader, driver and radio operator. The driver sat at the front left and radio-operator/machine gunner on the other side of the gun. Behind them both sat the gunner and the loader, while at the rear of the fighting compartment sat the commander.

The driver had a periscope in the front superstructure next to the gun mount. Early models were mounted with two vision slots for the driver, while mid and late models produced starting February of 1944 had single vision slot. Other periscopes were mounted on the roof of the superstructure and were used by commander and loader.

*Jagpanther,3 view late war variant and specifications:*


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 8, 2009)

One photo for the freak, maniac, obsessed modeller. Panther ausf A after long front service.

Note the polished innner roadwheel rims, evidently the rubber was completely worn out by the track teeth.


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## vikingBerserker (Sep 8, 2009)

Nice CB!


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 11, 2009)

Other nice ones, this is for a good diorama ( I never had patiente to build that ) the Panther "221" belonging to 4th panzerregiment based in North Italy. This is an ausf D with ausf A turret.


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## Amsel (Sep 15, 2009)

Those are fantastic photos.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 16, 2009)

Some more.

Effect of an large caliber HEAT projectile against frontal plate.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 16, 2009)

Pantherstellung, stahlunterstaz variant, steel dug in base, this is a semi-restored one not far away from Munich, note the remain of steel support for the barbed wire protecting the emplacement from infantry handheld explosve charges.


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## vikingBerserker (Sep 16, 2009)

CharlesBronson said:


> Some more.
> 
> Effect of an large caliber HEAT projectile against frontal plate.



That must have been one hell of a punch!


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 16, 2009)

Yes, it was. the ammo caliber was a 105mm, used by some special close support variants of the Sherman M4 and the self propelled "Priest" . Some fragily or "overhardening" in the Panther steel armor is noted.


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## Claude (Jan 25, 2010)

Hello

I'm looking for pictures of panther A during Operation Cobra and if it's possible panther of 2ème panzer division (sector of Percy, 27-28 jully 44)

Thanks


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## CharlesBronson (Jan 26, 2010)

A lot of Panzer V pictures, from July 1944 included here:

Search results for "BUNDESARCHIV PANTHER" - Wikimedia Commons


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## Claude (Jan 28, 2010)

CharlesBronson said:


> A lot of Panzer V pictures, from July 1944 included here:
> 
> Search results for "BUNDESARCHIV PANTHER" - Wikimedia Commons



thank you for the picture.

this two picture interest me but the title "north of france" is surpring for the date 21 june...

There are no panther of 2ème SS in july or other panther of other tank division in cobras opération...







http://img10.hostingpics.net/pics/5...kreich__Panzer_V__Panther__mit_Infanterie.jpg

If you know other picture i am interesting, of course but thank you for your help.


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## CharlesBronson (Jan 28, 2010)

Probably there are many some in the Bundesarchiv, the problem is, as you see, the date is not in every photo so is kind of difficult to pinpoint the ones involved in the other side of "Cobra".


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## Kurfürst (Jan 28, 2010)

Absolutely love these pictures in #196 Mr. Bronson.


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## CharlesBronson (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks, the holy grial of Panther pictures is definately to found one of the Daimler Benz prototypes in working conditions, still looking for that.


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## Claude (Feb 2, 2010)

hello,

I continu my search, i have found this picture
maybe you can help me
- for you it's a panther A?
- in nornandie?
- what is the unit?


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 2, 2010)

It look like an ausf A, and due the heavy leafy cammo I am pretty sure the photo was taken in Normadie, sorry I cant help you with the unit.


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## Claude (Feb 3, 2010)

thank you, 

I have the confimation, it's a panther A and in normandie, I search other picture of this N°200 (it's probaly a panther of panzer lehr becouse the big number in red)

I continue...


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## CharlesBronson (May 25, 2015)

Recently I found this, short film of the "Cuckoo", captured Panther in british service, Holland december 1944.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXpS8cseUhk_


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## gjs238 (May 25, 2015)

Is that a US star painted on the side?


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## Airframes (May 25, 2015)

Good stuff !
Yes, it's a U.S. star on the turret, the 'universal' recognition marking for US, British, Commonwealth and other allies in N.W. Europe, for all vehicles.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


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## CharlesBronson (May 25, 2015)

....and large allied markings were specially a important issue for this tank is particular. I found a source who said the "Cuckoo" was lost in action against Tigers, but that info is somewhat vague.


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## Juha (Jun 1, 2015)

Cuckoo was used by the 6th Guards Tank Brigade, a Churchill unit, which liked especially the accuracy of its gun, and IIRC was discarted when they ran out of spare parts. That from the unit history, which I read a couple decades ago.


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