# Mig-21 vs the F-104 (and the century series)



## Shortround6 (Jan 27, 2019)

Perhaps too late but I am trying to move the Mig-21 discussion over here.

The F-104 went into service several years before the Mig-21. Both were rather limited planes in a number of ways. Both got higher powered engines (newer J-79s in the case of F-104, completely new engines in the case of the Mig-21) electronics varied considerably over the years they were in production and the weapons fit, especially on the Mig 21 changed considerably. 
This makes it rather hard to do a simple comparison as you have to make sure you are comparing the right year aircraft (or the right aircraft in the theater/war) you are talking about.

The F-104 stayed fairly consistent as to armament for quite a while. A pair of Sidewinders on the wing tips and the M61 20mm cannon in the fuselage. 

The Mig 21 started (mostly) with a pair of NR-30 30mm cannon. These were fairly powerful (410 gram projectiles at 780m/s) and they fired at 900rpm (15 rounds per second) and one hit could pretty much ruin a fighter pilots day. His plane might not be dead but he was probably out of the fight. trouble is that the Mig only carried 30 rounds per gun 2 seconds of firing time. 
The F-104 and the M61 gatling gun carried up to 725 rounds. While peak rate of fire was 4000rpm (67 rounds per second) it took about 1/2 second for the gun to get up to full speed so the initial burst and indeed the whole first second deliver a lot less projectiles than the advertising would have you believe. The later M61A1 cannon reached 6000rpm but still required time to accelerate up to full rate of fire. The M61A1 may only fire 18 rounds in the first 0.5 second and 68 rounds in the first full second. There were enough problems with the initial M61 guns that some F-104s were completed without them and a number of F-104s had only missiles for a number of years. When the M61A1 was introduced a number of the older F-104s were refitted with the new guns (or had the new gun installed after flying without a gun for years). 

for the Mig the general run of weapons seems to be 
Mig-21F has two 30mm cannon
Mig-21F-13 has one 30mm cannon and two (?) Atoll missiles. 
Mig -21P, PF, FL, and PFV had no guns, missiles only.
Mig-21PFM, R, S had an optional under fuselage 23mm gun pack with 200 rounds.
Mig-21SM,M, MF,MT, SMT amd bis had the 23mm gun built into the lower fuselage, also with 200 rounds.

The GSH-23L gun fired at 3000-3500rpm (50-58 rounds per second) and used 175 gram projectiles at 740 m/s

The US gun used 101 gram projectiles at 1030m/s. 

At times some F-104s were fitted with a twin rail under the fuselage for another pair of Sidewinders but this was high drag and not popular. 

Some of the Mig variants could also carry 4 missiles. The Russians may have been more inclined to fit one of the two missiles (or two of the four) with a semi-active radar homing head rather than the heat seeker and fire the missiles in pairs. 

The Italian F-104S swapped the gun for more electronics and the ability to fire Sparrow missiles (and a pair or two! of Sidewinders although that may cut down on fuel). 







Loaded for bear but I have no idea how often they every flew like that, publicity photos aside. 

The MIg 21 _may_ have been the better airplane, but lets make sure we are comparing the right aircraft (right years) models.

F-104 wins in 1958 and 1959 because the Mig 21 wasn't in squadron service. After that ???????

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## The Basket (Jan 28, 2019)

Didn't Indian Fishbeds fight Pakistani Starfighters? 
How long were Starfighters in service in USAF as pure fighters? In Vietnam?


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## Shortround6 (Jan 28, 2019)

The only "pure fighter" US F-104s were the 170 YF-104A and F-104As built ending in Dec 1958. This is out of 772 originally planned. Changing requirements and budgets meant most were canceled. At the most they equipped 4 squadrons at one time. Surplus to requirement F-104As (and a smattering of two seat F-104B trainers) went to Pakistan, Jordan and Taiwan.
In 1967 26 were re-engined with up rated J-79 engines but the type was phased out of the last US squadron in 1969.

The F-104C was built in small numbers (77) but was originally purchased as a nuclear strike fighter with a 2000lb nuclear bomb on the center pylon. Once there were sufficient F-105s and other delivery methods the F-104C begin to use conventional weapons. However it was the 104Cs that went to Vietnam to act as escorts for the other US strike aircraft which makes the term "pure fighter" a bit problematic. There was also the fact that the 104s were in Vietnam basically as one squadron. Certainly never more than two. They did rotate squadrons so more than two served in Vietnam at one time. 

The use of the 104 by other countries is hard to judge as the accounts vary considerably depending on who is giving the account. The Planes (both types) were often old and without the most up to date missiles. ANd the opposing forces might or might not be true contemporaries. Like in the 1971 India/Pakistan war, the Pakistan 104s were the 'A's that had come of the production line in 1958. When were the Indian Migs built and what models were they?


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## Glider (Jan 28, 2019)

I have a slightly different understanding

*Initial Mig 21* - 2 x NR-30 cannon
*Mig 21F-13* _Fishbed C_ - Basically the same but the R11 engine was slightly altered to give more power increased to 12,676lb thrust (the F stands for Forsazh which means boosted). The chord of the ventral fin was also slightly increased. The 13 relates to the fact that it could carry the A-13 Atoll missile and normally the port gun was removed to save weight. Its worth noting that the Indian Mig 21F had the port gun reinstalled.
*Mig 21PF*_ Fishbed D_ - no guns and it relied on the two missiles (which the IAF considered to be far from satisfactory) The main changes involved the all weather radar and approx. 20% extra fuel. The R11 was also given a bit more boost to 13,670lb and the twin 23mm GP9 gun pack was an option later on. The Indian version of the PF was called FL and after a very short time always had the GP9
*Mig 21PFS* _Fishbed F_ was a temporary designation that became the PFM (the m standing for Modifkatsirovanny or modified)
*Mig 21 PFMA* _Fishbed J_ were basically late model PFM This had some significant changes namely two extra pylons for fuel or weapons and a new canopy/ejection systems. A common payload was GP9 gunpack, two drop tanks and two K13A missiles. Late production versions of the PFMA carried the twin 23mm GSh-23 cannon of the GP9 internally.
*Mig 21 MF* was a later version of the PFMA with the R13 engine producing 11,224lb dry, 14,550lb reheat. You can look at this as the PFMA incorporating all the enhancements with a new engine
*Mig 21 R* _Fishbed H _tactical recce version of the Mig 21 PFM

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## eagledad (Jan 28, 2019)

Shortround,

Attached is a report from 1969 on tactical trials of the Mig 21 against selected USAF and USN fighters (includes F-104D). It appears the situation between F-104 and the MIg is similar to A6M and P-38, that is the F-104 needed to use dive and zoom.

Eagledad

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## Glider (Jan 28, 2019)

Very interesting, many thanks for posting it.

I have two observations 
a) a minor one. I note that all through the paper they refer to it as a Fishbed E when it's clearly a Mig 21F- 13 which is a Fishbed C.
b) there is a lot of reliance on using the limiting speed of the Mig 21 below 15,000ft, of mach 0.98 as a method of avoiding the Mig 21. Due to aerodynamic improvements and the slightly more powerful versions of the R11 on the PF this limit was exceeded and there could have been some unpleasant surprises for the unaware Nato pilot.

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## Schweik (Jan 28, 2019)

eagledad said:


> Shortround,
> 
> Attached is a report from 1969 on tactical trials of the Mig 21 against selected USAF and USN fighters (includes F-104D). It appears the situation between F-104 and the MIg is similar to A6M and P-38, that is the F-104 needed to use dive and zoom.
> 
> Eagledad




One other big difference... the P-38 shot down a lot of A6M's....


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## Graeme (Jan 28, 2019)

A "plethora" of Fishbed variants...






(From the Part-Series Airplane No 77- Aerospace Publishing 1990)

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