# Mystery Aircraft



## gumbyk (Apr 30, 2018)

Anyone got an idea what this aircraft is?

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## fubar57 (Apr 30, 2018)

Looks Lockheedyish


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## fubar57 (Apr 30, 2018)

.....and of course Google Images never fails to disappoint: typed in "Lockheed Sirius"...




​

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## Crimea_River (Apr 30, 2018)

I was thinking the same Geo. Maybe a Lockheed Altair?


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## fubar57 (Apr 30, 2018)

Went through "Lockheed Aircraft since 1913". The Altair looks very similar Andy but it was the first Lockheed aircraft with a retractable undercarriage, no spats. This was done at the request of Charles Lindbergh. Unless its a one-off, not a Lockheed


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## Crimea_River (Apr 30, 2018)

Ah yes. I didn't look close enough to notice the spats. I thought at first and only glance that they were the folded bay doors.


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## *SkyChimp* (Apr 30, 2018)

Looks like Lockheed, Northrop, Seversky and Grandville all contributed parts.


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## Capt. Vick (May 1, 2018)

Modified Northrop Gamma?


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## *SkyChimp* (May 1, 2018)

Propeller cone, tear-drop wheel spats, weird wing dihedral, huge lettering under the wing, Kamikaze-ish paint job, palm tree in the back ground. Could be Japanese. Looks C5M Bab'ish to me. That's not it, but looks Japanese.


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## Airframes (May 1, 2018)

Looks a bit like the Weddel Williams Racer, but I don't think it is.


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## Wildr1 (May 2, 2018)

Could it be a 1935 Bendix race GEE BEE QED RACER, looking at the first image the tail is taller.


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## Wurger (May 2, 2018)

Rather no. the plane has the tail wheel while the Gee Bee has the skid.

I have enlarged the pic and worked on it with the Gamma correction. It revealed the black number on the wing undersides. Judging by the number shape the pic seems to be reverted. I inverted that and the number looks like the R 32 or R 22.

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## T Bolt (May 2, 2018)

Not stubby enough to be a Seversky


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## vikingBerserker (May 2, 2018)

It looks like a Curtiss Hawk 75 with an elongated nose. Then landing gear certainly looks similar to the export versions.


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## mexchiwa (May 2, 2018)

This pic has been on a couple of other forums - no one has gotten it yet, I certainly don't know what it is...


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## Capt. Vick (May 2, 2018)

A Google search of the photo provided the following:

"A few days ago an interesting group of photos of Spanish military aircraft made towards August 1941 in San Javier was put on sale in allcollection.Among them appears this strange plane that I have not been able to identify. Does anyone recognize it?"


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## Capt. Vick (May 2, 2018)

Can we eliminate it being Japanese?


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## Wurger (May 2, 2018)

I wouldn't exclude the Japanese kite. If you have a close up look at the forest in the pic you can notice that these trees are palms. That may suggest the Pacific Ocean region.


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## Graeme (May 2, 2018)

mexchiwa said:


> This pic has been on a couple of other forums - no one has gotten it yet, I certainly don't know what it is...



Indeed. Seems to have all started late last year?

Here's 8 pages worth - note the last post...

Please Identify This Plane

(Anyone remember that bogus unknown German fighter photo that did the rounds on the net about 10 years ago?)


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## GrauGeist (May 2, 2018)

Honestly looks to have a Jack Northrop feel about it...

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## dogsbody (May 2, 2018)

This one?







Chris


Graeme said:


> Indeed. Seems to have all started late last year?
> 
> Here's 8 pages worth - note the last post...
> 
> ...


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## Wildr1 (May 2, 2018)

Jan vd Heuvel's image, have you heard anything about him.


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## vikingBerserker (May 3, 2018)

Kind of looks like a Fokker D.XXI with fixed landing gear as well.


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## Capt. Vick (May 3, 2018)

dogsbody said:


> This one?
> View attachment 491913
> 
> 
> ...



So that one has been proven a fake?


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## Wildr1 (May 3, 2018)




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## GrauGeist (May 3, 2018)

Interesting explanation for the mystery plane, but it was not likely to have been the He280 V7 airframe, as V7 (WkNmr 0007) NU+EB was built with a "V" tail.
Of the nine (not eight) airframes, V4, V5, V6 and V9 never flew and in some cases, were not completed.
when I went through the He280 records, I found it interesting to see that V6 (WkNmr 0006) was noted to have been used for a non-defined experiment that didn't seem to be related to the He280 program.


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## vikingBerserker (May 3, 2018)

That kind of paintjob I've seen a lot on German aircraft.


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## T Bolt (May 3, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> Honestly looks to have a Jack Northrop feel about it...


I would agree with that. It's too bad we can't see the rear fuselage or tail

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## hermankeil (May 4, 2018)

My first thought was "Conquistador del Cielo" which was the GeeBee QED in an earlier incarnation. The apparent R22 under the wingt could be a racing number. Only problem is this machine appears to have a 3 bladed prop.


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## Wurger (May 4, 2018)

Again, rather no. The plane has the tail wheel. The Gee Bee QED had the tail skid. Also there is the lack of the rigging. The base of the main landing gear is different. Additionally the wing shape and its dihedral is different too..


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## dogsbody (May 4, 2018)

Wildr1 said:


> Jan vd Heuvel's image, have you heard anything about him.



Jan passed away on June 23rd, 2017.


Chris


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## Wildr1 (May 4, 2018)

I.'m sorry to hear it, he sent his photo collection to Doug McPhail with some to be given to me. I haven't heard from Doug.


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## Wildr1 (May 7, 2018)

Jan had the most extensive collection of captured French aircraft that he posted on the Air Warfare forum I have ever seen. He will be missed. Can you remember the posts I made on that forum.


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## dogsbody (May 8, 2018)

Wildr1 said:


> I.'m sorry to hear it, he sent his photo collection to Doug McPhail with some to be given to me. I haven't heard from Doug.



I haven't heard of Doug McPhail in a long long time.


Chris


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## dogsbody (May 8, 2018)

Wildr1 said:


> Jan had the most extensive collection of captured French aircraft that he posted on the Air Warfare forum I have ever seen. He will be missed. Can you remember the posts I made on that forum.



AWF was a great forum and I dearly miss it. So much aviation information was amassed there and now it's gone.


Chris


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## Smokey Stover (May 8, 2018)

How about this....


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## Wildr1 (May 8, 2018)

Yes it was a great forum. Sagin dragon should be on this one, talk to him.


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## dogsbody (May 8, 2018)

I've got the ol' bugger on Facebook. He still trolls the various forums from time to time. He's retired now and spends some of his time doing aircraft profiles. He's pretty good at it, too.


Chris


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## Capt. Vick (May 9, 2018)

Smokey Stover said:


> How about this....
> View attachment 492679



That's a Brewster A-32

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## Wurger (May 9, 2018)

Smokey Stover said:


> How about this....
> View attachment 492679





Capt. Vick said:


> That's a Brewster A-32



Yep,, that's the Brewster XA-32 prototype.


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## nuuumannn (May 13, 2018)

It could be one of these. Either a single seater;





Mystery single seater

Or a two seater:




Mystery two seater

Either way, if I were designing a 1930s era single engined monoplane, it'd probably look like this.

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## dogsbody (May 13, 2018)

nuuumannn said:


> It could be one of these. Either a single seater;
> 
> View attachment 493128
> Mystery single seater
> ...





Looks like a Fokker D.21


Chris


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## fubar57 (May 13, 2018)

Close Chris but the spats look wrong among other little things

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## GrauGeist (May 13, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> Close Chris but the spats loo wrong among other little things.


The main gear is more robust on the "mystery" ship.
Also, the mainwing's dihedral is a bit different between the two.

Very close, though.


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## fubar57 (May 13, 2018)

The wings remind me of the Aichi D3A2 "Val". I wonder if Aichi had a pre-war proto-type or a non-military version of the Val


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## fubar57 (May 13, 2018)

Not the prototype, canopy is too far forward


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## GrauGeist (May 13, 2018)

Also of note: the "mystery" aircraft's maingear fairing also blends into the leading edge of the wing, unlike the Aichi or Fokker examples, with are slightly set back.

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## Smokey Stover (May 16, 2018)

???


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## GrauGeist (May 16, 2018)

Douglas B-18


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## jetcal1 (May 16, 2018)

I"m guessing a Ki-15 _Karigane_ But the cowling doesn't quite match.


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## dogsbody (May 19, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> Close Chris but the spats look wrong among other little things
> 
> View attachment 493186​



I know. I meant nuuumannn's drawings looked like a D.21.


Chris


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## Marcel (May 19, 2018)

Wildr1 said:


> Jan had the most extensive collection of captured French aircraft that he posted on the Air Warfare forum I have ever seen. He will be missed. Can you remember the posts I made on that forum.


I've met Jan and his nephew on several occasions. He left his G1 press to the SFG1.


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## herman1rg (May 19, 2018)

I think it might be a Racing aircraft from the 1930's look up 
Wedell-Williams (although I don't think that is it)


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## Wurger (May 20, 2018)

Still having doubts if the plane was a racer. IMHO she looks like a mail or small airliner. Each time I look at the pic I'm getting an impression that there were small windows.


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## Airframes (May 20, 2018)

I think that's more likely to be lettering.
I'd mentioned the Weddel Williams racer earlier, and although I don't think it is (the WW had a 2 blade prop I believe), it is certainly similar.

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## Wurger (May 20, 2018)

I agree Terry. The mail plane is very likely.


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## Wildr1 (May 20, 2018)

Marcel said:


> I've met Jan and his nephew on several occasions. He left his G1 press to the SFG1.


Yes, I remember his posts of those G1's, eurpopean ebay.... we had to let each other know our ebay handles on that forum so we didn't bid against each other. I gave him some captured Blochs and D520s. But yes he was a collector of dutch WW 2 a/c .


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## Wildr1 (May 20, 2018)

herman1rg said:


> I think it might be a Racing aircraft from the 1930's look up
> Wedell-Williams (although I don't think that is it)




WEDELL WILLIAMS 44 RACER at THOMPSON HANGAR in 1932 





WEDELL WILLIAMS 92 RACER


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## Capt. Vick (May 20, 2018)

Wrong tail wheel...


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## Wurger (May 20, 2018)

Not only the tail wheel ...


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## herman1rg (May 20, 2018)

I'm now thinking it might be an Aichi D3A (Val) except for the front part of the undercarriage legs


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## Wurger (May 20, 2018)

Aichi didn't have the cockpit conopy moved back. Also the gunsight would be seen at the front of the windscreen. Additinally the shape of the wing is different from the Val. Her wing was of almost similar shape to the Spitfire wing with quite pointed wing tips. The one in the pic seems to have them more round.


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## *SkyChimp* (May 20, 2018)

It appears to have a side scoop air intake.


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## Wurger (May 21, 2018)

The central part of the cockpit canopy seems to be of sliding back. type...






Also the pic is of the better quality and the underwing number seems to be 827 now but not the R32. Still thinking the pic is reverted ...

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## herman1rg (May 21, 2018)

Vultee BT-13 altered and painted to look like a Val? As used in Tora! Tora! Tora!


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## *SkyChimp* (May 21, 2018)

The radial engines side air intake and gear housing behing the prop suggests a Pratt and Whitney R-1340 S3H engine. The wing dihedral, pitot tube and canopy windscreen suggests a Northrop aircraft. The engine cowling is off from any Gamma. Japan got 2 civil Northrop Gammas, both went to the Navy. The markings on the fuselage do not appear to be windows, to me they appear to be asian letters. This could be a Japanese modified Northrop, or a Japnese copy (licensed or unlicensed), for their fledgling civil airlines.


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## GrauGeist (May 22, 2018)

The Gamma series had a wide range of cowlings in relation to the model's engine being either a Wright or a Pratt & Whitney. 
In the case of an air intake, if the model had one (few did), it was set back, behind the cowling. A clear example of this, would be the Gamma's USAAC derivative, the A-17.
The Gammas also had either an extreme setback to the cockpit or it was moved virtually to the firewall.
Not sure what to think about the "fledgling civil airlines" part, as the Japanese aviation industry was on a par with most other nations in the 20's and 30's.

The Gamma 2E, which also saw service with the Chinese Air Force also saw one each going to the British and Soviet Union for evaluation. Powered by a Wright R-1820-F53.





The single Gamma 5A built, was powered by a Wright R-1820-F52. In the photo, is the aircraft sold to the Imperial Japanese Navy in 1935, registered as BXN1. It was destroyed in an accident during testing.




The Gamma 5B was powered by a Pratt & Whitney R-1535-98 and only one airframe was built. After a brief tour of demonstrations in South America, it was sold to Spain in 1937, where it served with the Spanish Air Force flying coastal patrols.




The only Gamma 5D airframe made, was powered by a Pratt & Whitney R-1340-S3H1 and was initially intended for the Imperial Japanese Army, however the Imperial Japanese Navy took ownership of it in 1936 and gave it the code BXN2. The IJN conducted several tests and then transferred it to Nakajima, who found it useful in their development of the B5N. It was later turned over to the Manchurian Air Lines in the late 30's, who used it for reconnaissance in China and the Soviet Union.





None of the Gammas look close to the Mystery Ship..there are some similarities, which were common across the entire aircraft industry in the 1930's.


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## *SkyChimp* (May 22, 2018)

In the absence of any other explanation, a Japanese facsimile of a Northrop is as good as any. It certainly has elements more closely aligned to Northrop designs than any other make I've seen. I do not believe this plane has anything to do with the Spanish Civil War as proffered elsewhere. The background suggests otherwise. The engine appears to be a P&W. The prop cone is unlike any I've seen attached to any American plane of the time. It's deeply parabolic in shape. It has a distinctive Japanese flair to it. And, again, the markings on the side appear to be asian characters, quite possibly Japanese. Perhaps instead of comparing it to other aircraft, it would be wise to research Japanese air carriers of the 1930s. Which used that paint scheme? Which used script that could match what's on the side of this plane? Research into that may yuield results. I believe as good an explanation as any is that this is a Japanese plane, possibly a one off.


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## Nigel Brenton (Aug 31, 2018)

gumbyk said:


> Anyone got an idea what this aircraft is?
> View attachment 491670








Looks like this one to me


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## GrauGeist (Aug 31, 2018)

Nigel Brenton said:


> Looks like this one to me


No enclosed cockpit and the maingear has a narrow track compared to the mystery ship.

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## Wurger (Aug 31, 2018)

Agreed.


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## Frufel (Aug 17, 2022)

Capt. Vick said:


> Modified Northrop Gamma?


maybe

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## SaparotRob (Aug 17, 2022)

Hey, Frufel, welcome to the Forum. Great pictures! This thread has been inactive for a few years but I'm glad you reopened it.


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## OldGeezer (Aug 17, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> Hey, Frufel, welcome to the Forum. Great pictures! This thread has been inactive for a few years but I'm glad you reopened it.


It's turned into an obsession for me, I thought surely it was one of the Japanese newspaper "goodwill flight" airplanes based on a translated article in a 1959 AAHS Jornal, but apparently not. The palm trees in the background really narrow down the options. One of those goodwill flights was to the Philippines but it definitely didn't involve this airplane. It has many features of Lockheed's Sirius/Altair aircraft but they all seem to be accounted for, and none had this particular style of landing gear or 3-blade prop. That AAHS article gives a tantalizing detail: "Following [a previous goodwill flight] the Mainichi Shimbun [newspaper] purchased a new type Lockheed Altair for a similar flight. This was to be to Manchuria... The old Altair had a Hamilton fixed-pitch metal propeller, but the new one had a controllable-pitch prop and the horsepower of the Pratt and Whitney Wasp was increased to 500-525 hp." Maybe tied in with a switch to 3-blade prop? No photos suggest it, though. This is just the kind of thing that I can't drop - hope somebody comes up with an answer soon, I've got other things I need to be working on!

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