# Need help identifying this biplane



## cooltouch (Mar 14, 2009)

I'm scanning a bunch of old slides right now, and have run across one that I took at an air show back in 1985, and I have no information on the airplane. I'd like to be able to include at least it's name and model number in the scan file.







I realize it isn't a WWII aircraft, but this is the forum that I feel I may have the best chances of getting this aircraft identified. From the general design, it appears to be from the same era as the Stearman, but it doesn't look like any Stearman I've seen. I'm assuming it's a trainer, but I've had no luck so far searching the net for a match. Judging from its markings, I'm guessing it's American.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Michael


----------



## HoHun (Mar 14, 2009)

Hi Michael,

>Judging from its markings, I'm guessing it's American.

Strictly speaking, the markings appear to be French. From the look of the wings and the small engine, I'd guess it's a lighter aircraft than a Stearman, but I don't know the type either.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


----------



## Colin1 (Mar 14, 2009)

I wouldn't be drawn in by the choctaw image
American fighters never used the 'European' type roundels as national markings.

It looks French, I'm judging

i. by the way the French had a habit of painting their rudders in the colours of the national flag
ii. also by the way the French seemed to print on top of those colours exactly what type of fighter it was

I'll hazard a guess until I can find something more definitive and say the N stands for Nieuport. The numbers underneath the N may well be the model number of the a/c but I can't quite make them out.


----------



## Colin1 (Mar 14, 2009)

Colin1 said:


> I wouldn't be drawn in by the choctaw image
> American fighters never used the 'European' type roundels as national markings


Having said that, the wheels are bearing what looks like USAAC stars


----------



## Graeme (Mar 14, 2009)

cooltouch said:


> I realize it isn't a WWII aircraft



But it served during WWII. Just a guess Michael but I think it's Canadian. The *Fleet 16B Finch * dressed to look French. Have a Google, see what you think...


----------



## Colin1 (Mar 14, 2009)

Graeme said:


> ...I think it's Canadian. The *Fleet 16B Finch * dressed to look French. Have a Google, see what you think...


Close
closer than a Nieuport I suspect

Nieuport Identification

although the tail unit looks slightly different underneath on your pic


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Mar 14, 2009)

See the "n" number on the tail?

N-Number Results


----------



## Graeme (Mar 14, 2009)

FLYBOYJ said:


> See the "n" number on the tail?
> 
> N-Number Results



Hi Joe. I tried the "N" number here, but failed dismally...

search engine - Webinator

Thanks for the site you provided! I'm surprised that my Fleet 16B photo N211K was manufactured in 1960?! Does the site provide Country or place of manufacture?


----------



## evangilder (Mar 14, 2009)

Sometimes it does, but if a replica, you won't get much except it's mfr date and airworthiness date.

American Expeditionary roundels looked alot like the older European roundels, although the color scheme is different than above.


----------



## antoni (Mar 14, 2009)

Colin1 said:


> American fighters never used the 'European' type roundels as national markings.



Flypast July 2008 - Evolution US National Insignia

Not until the Mexican Punitive Operation of April to May 1916 did US aircraft adopt any national insignia. A red star was hand painted on the rudder of Curtiss R-3s and R-4s. The insignia varied in size, had curved sides more akin to a leaf and were only in use for three months. The Signal Corps continued to apply this
style of marking, with straight sides and sometimes on a white circle until 1917. 

The US entry into the Great War in 1917,hastened the need for a suitable national insignia and the design submitted by the 1st Aero Squadron, New York National Guard, when called to Federal service, was
adopted in May of that year. This comprised a blue circle containing a white star with a red centre circle, to be marked on the upper and lower wing surfaces. The red circle was later enlarged but was to clear the inner points of the star by 1/24th of the overall diameter. In October 1917a standard 60in (152.4cm) size was adopted and the red circle was to touch the tangent lines of the star sides. Where the wing chord was smaller than 60in, a small insignia equal to the chord was authorised. At the same time, rudder striping was introduced, comprising equal widths, from the rudder post, of blue/white/red stripes.

In France, the American Expeditionary Force found that the star insignia could, at a distance, be indistinguishable from the curved outline of the German Cross and advised that it was going to adopt a circle insignia, similar to that already in use by the French Air Force and the Royal Flying Corps and Royal Naval Air Service. This consisted of a wing chord width red outer, an inner 2/3rd diameter blue and 1/3rd diameter
white circles, to be marked on the upper and lower wing surfaces. This roundel was authorised for use on Navy and Army aircraft on January 11,1918and later amended, on March 5, 1918,by the Signal Crops to standardise on the 60in insignia, in use by the Navy. At the same time the rudder striping was amended to red (forward)/white/blue. On May 17,1919,the insignia reverted to the 'star in circle' design as authorised in October 1917with the rudder stripes reverting to blue(forward)/white/red.


----------



## Glider (Mar 14, 2009)

Personally I would go with the Finch, there are a number of slightly unusual features which are the same on both pictures.


----------



## cooltouch (Mar 14, 2009)

Thanks, guys! I was focusing in mostly on the shape of the rudder and the wheel struts, which were clearly different from a Stearman. I googled "fleet 16b finch" and found enough photo evidence to satisfy me, at least.

The reason why I figured it was American was because of the star insignias on the wheels. It was interesting reading about the early US aircraft symbol designs. 

Best,

Michael


----------



## Airframes (Mar 14, 2009)

It's certainly a Fleet Finch, and I think it's painted to represent a Neiuport of the 'Lafayette' in WW1, or an approximation.


----------



## Colin1 (Mar 16, 2009)

Well I never...
Nice one Terry 8)


----------



## corben1 (Mar 16, 2009)

Looks just like the Fleet 16B (N9427H) that I ferried from near Albany, NY to Evansville, IN in the mid-60's.

The center cylinder on the old B5 Kinner could sure coat your forehead if is stuck above the windshield. Also a beast to start when it was hot.

The real headache was greasing the rockers every five hours or so. There was no oil to the upper end in those engines.

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/corben1_photo/IMG-1.jpg


----------

