# Navigation



## bob44 (Oct 13, 2012)

Lets say P51s flying from Leiston to Berlin. How did they navigate to where they where supposed to be and back to England?


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Oct 13, 2012)

Dead reckoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## bob44 (Oct 13, 2012)

Must have been more than DRing?


----------



## Shortround6 (Oct 14, 2012)

Follow the bombers???

check points, they had to pass over/near other cities/rivers/lakes a pre-determined times. If the cloud cover is too bad to see the ground the Dead reckoning gets increasingly _iffy_


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Oct 14, 2012)

Shortround6 said:


> Follow the bombers???
> 
> check points, they had to pass over/near other cities/rivers/lakes a pre-determined times. If the cloud cover is too bad to see the ground the Dead reckoning gets increasingly _iffy_



What you're describing is call called "pilotage" and many times its used in conjunction with dead reckoning. During WW2, DR was basically all you had unless your aircraft was equipped with a DF unit. With a needle equipped DF unit you could possibly triangulate a position providing you had locations of the transmitting radio stations.

Celestial navigation was used in larger aircraft that were equipped with a sextant, and of course you had radar.


----------



## bob44 (Oct 14, 2012)

I think there must have been some radio usage involved.


----------



## gumbyk (Oct 14, 2012)

No, it was pretty much just DR. DF radios cost weight, which is better spent in fuel or ammunition.

Dead reckoning can be pretty accurate, especially if you are using intermediate waypoints where you can recalculate groundspeed and drift.

For return to base, they used ground radar if the weather was bad.


----------



## bob44 (Oct 17, 2012)

Perhaps a combination of DR, pilotage, radio, radar.


----------



## gumbyk (Oct 17, 2012)

I'm curious, why did you dismiss Dead Reckoning? It can deliver pretty accurate results.


----------



## bob44 (Oct 17, 2012)

Not dismissing DR.
I have read that radio was used a lot for civil/military aircraft navigation in that time.
And Iam not sure about what a fighter escort/sweep into Germany would use.


----------



## tyrodtom (Oct 18, 2012)

You can't use a lot of radio navigation aids in a war zone like you could in the USA, or Canada. The same aids that could guide your aircraft home would also be used by the enemy to bomb and intrude on your airfields.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Oct 18, 2012)

tyrodtom said:


> You can't use a lot of radio navigation aids in a war zone like you could in the USA, or Canada. The same aids that could guide your aircraft home would also be used by the enemy to bomb and intrude on your airfields.


True - back then most if not all radio communication was done on low and mid frequencies. All you need to know is the location of a transmitting AM radio station and DF equipment and you can navigate "to from." At the same time, LF radio nav aids are not that accurate and are easily affected by weather conditions.

Here's a little info on this...

ADF History


----------



## Airframes (Oct 18, 2012)

I agree with all the above. No doubt Bill can verify, but, in general, escort fighters (or any other fighter formation, or pair, for example) would have an 'Outbound' course and 'Inbound' course given at briefing, with an emergency return course also being provided.
For example, the 'Inbound' course might be specific, with a way-point at, say, Gravelines, then a course for landfall at a specific point on the south or east coast of England, this point being the expected entry location, allowing AA and ADGB to be aware of 'friendly' aircraft. The 'emergency' course would be a heading to get the formation (or more likely an individual) directly back to the British Isles, on the straightest, most direct heading to allow landfall. From a point in Germany, this course would be something like 300 degrees magnetic, which, given enough fuel, should allow a pilot to at least find England.
Aerial navigation was still in it's infancy during WW2, and the requirements of military aviation at that time, saw the development of many aids, the basis of which are still in use today. However, those aids, at that time, were few and, as has been stated, could not be used for operational purposes, as they would also aid the enemy.
A look at the cockpit of virtually any single seat fighter of the period will show that the navigation aids consisted mainly of a compass, and gyro directional indicator - multi-seat, multi-engine aircraft dis, of course, have further instrumentation, but still relied chiefly on DR navigation, with minimal help from ground station equipment, or airborne equipment such as H2S.


----------



## bob44 (Oct 18, 2012)

Ok. Several good points.


----------



## davebender (Nov 19, 2012)

That sounds like a step backward from WWI methods.

Telefunken Kompass Sender - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How the Zeppelin Raiders Are Guided by Radio Signals (1918)


----------



## Edgar Brooks (Nov 19, 2012)

> During WW2, DR was basically all you had


Not strictly true, but leave that for now.
The chances of P-51s being sent to Berlin, alone, is a bit unlikely, since they would either be acting as escorts for the bombers heading to Berlin, or given the job of intercepting them, on the way home, and, again, acting as escort.
In the first instance, they'd have a pretty good idea when their fuel level would dictate a return home, so they'd have been given a course home, preferably at ground level, with the freedom to attack targets of opportunity as they went.
For the interception, they'd have been given a course to steer, and the returning bomber force was usually spread over several miles, so not too difficult to find, and then it was a simple (??) case of staying with them.
If they got involved in a fight, they did have another option, and that was I.F.F. Head somewhere between north and west, and call for assistance, and they'd be told to switch the set on, which immediately showed the radar operators where they were, and they could be given a course for home.
One pilot did say that all they had to do was look for the biggest, blackest cloud, and they knew England would be under it, but I think he came from Florida, Texas or Arizona.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Nov 19, 2012)

Edgar Brooks said:


> Not strictly true, but leave that for now.
> The chances of P-51s being sent to Berlin, alone, is a bit unlikely, since they would either be acting as escorts for the bombers heading to Berlin, or given the job of intercepting them, on the way home, and, again, acting as escort.
> In the first instance, they'd have a pretty good idea when their fuel level would dictate a return home, so they'd have been given a course home, preferably at ground level, with the freedom to attack targets of opportunity as they went.
> For the interception, they'd have been given a course to steer, and the returning bomber force was usually spread over several miles, so not too difficult to find, and then it was a simple (??) case of staying with them.
> ...



Providing the aircraft was equipped with IFF - yes. Even when vectored, you still have to plot a course, determine any wind correction angle and make calculations for airspeed and fuel consumption - DR. Vectors work fine providing you could be accurately identified and you can fly the course given, and "of course" have the remaining fuel to do so.


----------



## gumbyk (Nov 19, 2012)

And, sometimes they just headed in the general direction of England and landed at the first airfield they came across. Its a pretty big island, and not easy to miss over the sort of distances we're talking about.

In the Pacific, they had a basic DF set at the base. The pilot would give a ten-count, and the controller would give a course to steer. Aparently, it was OK, if the weather was good, but in bad weather, when everyone wanted a heading to steer, it could turn to chaos.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Nov 19, 2012)

gumbyk said:


> And, sometimes they just headed in the general direction of England and landed at the first airfield they came across. Its a pretty big island, and not easy to miss over the sort of distances we're talking about.
> 
> In the Pacific, they had a basic DF set at the base. The pilot would give a ten-count, and the controller would give a course to steer. Aparently, it was OK, if the weather was good, but in bad weather, when everyone wanted a heading to steer, it could turn to chaos.



"DF STEER"


----------



## Edgar Brooks (Nov 20, 2012)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Providing the aircraft was equipped with IFF - yes. .


In a book on Duxford "Duxford and the Big Wings 1940-45," by Martin Bowman, 2nd. Lt. Dick Hewitt states that, at the end of 1943, his P-47 was fitted with IFF. By then, the IFF Mk.III was in use, and (on RAF aircraft, at least,) the only visible sign was a bar aerial, usually under the wing or fuselage, about 12" long.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Nov 20, 2012)

Edgar Brooks said:


> In a book on Duxford "Duxford and the Big Wings 1940-45," by Martin Bowman, 2nd. Lt. Dick Hewitt states that, at the end of 1943, his P-47 was fitted with IFF. By then, the IFF Mk.III was in use, and (on RAF aircraft, at least,) the only visible sign was a bar aerial, usually under the wing or fuselage, about 12" long.


See gumbyk's post - even with IFF (and those aircraft equipped as not all aircraft had IFF equipment) "DF Steer" was going to get you on a basic course. Bottom line, DR is going to be used and outside electronic navigation (again on aircraft so equipped), was the basic mode of aerial navigation during WW2.

Found this from another site...

_"From the manuals I have, it seems the antenna is associated with the Detrola range reicever, or/and the SCR-274-N radio (depending on the manual you read). As the USAAF Merlin Mustangs used in Europe (ETO and MTO) used the SCR-522-A, if I am not mistaken, it is safe to assume the reason for the antenna in the MTO is the Detrola. Maybe Mr Fiedler will confirm he had such a control box on the right side floor of his cockpit:



A question that comes to my mind is that since the SCR-522-A was the copy of a bristish radio, then would the RAF keep it on their Mustang III and IV, or did they replace it with a british set? 

Also, was the SCR-274-N ever installed on Merlin Mustang during WWII? Most manuals refer to the two different sets, but it seems from the pictures that the SCR-522-A was the most widely used. I also read that the SCR-274-N set was heavier than the SCR-522-A, could it be the reason?

And still on the radio equipment subject, the IFF set:


In one of his studies of the 8th AAF, Roger Freeman says that IFF sets were deleted from fighters from December 1943. Can anyone confirm this, and knows the reason? I had a nice talk with a 367th FG veteran a few years ago, and he told me his 9th AAF outfit (using P-38s and P-47s) did have the IFF installed (he served from Sept 44 to V.E.day) Maybe Mr Fiedler can confirm us if this kind of equipment was in use in 15th AAF fighters.

Thanks for any input.

Laurent 

mayfair35:
Laurent,
Yes we did have a low frequency receiver but not the one shown in your illustration. As I recall ours had a somewhat different configuration but obviously a dial (larger) as shown on yours. The reason is that there was supposed to be a LF range somewhere in the vicinity. If there was it must have operated sporatically. Low ceilings were our most severe problems and we used to depend upon Big Fence for steers. This was not always too successful. 
We normally tried to descend through the clouds over the Adriatic and then fly under them to the coast and hopefully orient ourselves. If successful, we usually were able to find our way home. The greatest loss we had was when 5 a/c descended through the clouds, incorrectly assuming they were over the Adriatic. The next day, all 5 wrecks were located on one of the mountains north of us.
About the IFF, I am not sure. If we had it, I do not believe it was ever used. I recall using IFF in Germany during the mid-50s and of course quite often during Viet Nam. But we also had flare ports and guns in the P-51 during the war, which I never used nor was I ever informed what the colors of the day might be. I guess we depended upon visual identification when we and the Russians started flying in the same areas.
I hope this answers your questions. If not give me another try.
Cordially, Art Fiedler" _

http://www.mustangsmustangs.us/thehangar/index.php?topic=395.5;wap2

Eric (vangilder) might know this guy.


----------

