# FOUND!!! USS Lexington (CV-2)



## buffnut453 (Mar 5, 2018)

This may be old news to folks but the video and image are just too good not to share:









Note the VF-3 "Felix the Cat" emblem and the 4 kill markings on the F4F-3. Also the pre-May 1942 red centres to the national markings and the white 'F-5' airframe code. The video also has a nice clip, albeit a bit distant of a TBD Devastator in similar markings.

The following came from Wikipedia:
_On 5 March 2018, the research vessel __RV Petrel__, in a search led by billionaire __Paul Allen__, discovered the wreck of Lexington during an expedition to the __Coral Sea__. The ship lies nearly 2 miles (3,200 m) below the surface and 500 miles off the coast of __Eastern Australia__. An __ROV__ confirmed the identity of the wreck by finding the nameplate on the stern. The ship lies in three sections. The main section lies upright. A mile to the west, the bow and stern sections lie across from each other, with the bridge lying by itself between the three sections. Further to the west, a concentration of aircraft comprising seven Devastators, three Dauntlesses, and a single Wildcat was also located._

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## Airframes (Mar 5, 2018)

Amazing ! The paint on the aircraft hardly looks worn !

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## fubar57 (Mar 5, 2018)

Very cool Mark. Thanks for posting this

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## Njaco (Mar 5, 2018)

There are several pics of TBD Devastators on the bottom and lots of speculation over who flew F-5.


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## buffnut453 (Mar 5, 2018)

Clearly F-5 is wearing VF-3 markings but Lexington had VF-2 embarked at the time of the battle. At least one source indicates that a number of VF-3 Wildcats were transferred to VF-2 immediately prior to the battle. Perhaps F-5 was one of those and was never went through a markings change to VF-2 standard...which might imply that the kill markings pre-dates Coral Sea? 'Fraid my knowledge of USN aerial combats isn't great so this speculation could be way off the mark.

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## Wayne Little (Mar 6, 2018)

Saw them on Hyperscale too, fantastic find and pics...!


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## Lucky13 (Mar 6, 2018)



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## Peter Gunn (Mar 6, 2018)

buffnut453 said:


> Clearly F-5 is wearing VF-3 markings but Lexington had VF-2 embarked at the time of the battle. At least one source indicates that a number of VF-3 Wildcats were transferred to VF-2 immediately prior to the battle. Perhaps F-5 was one of those and was never went through a markings change to VF-2 standard...which might imply that the kill markings pre-dates Coral Sea? *'Fraid my knowledge of USN aerial combats isn't great so this speculation could be way off the mark.*


Mine's a bit sketchy as well, where's Mr. Leonard when you need him?

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## vikingBerserker (Mar 6, 2018)

That's just awesome. She is my favorite ship.

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## BuNo02100 (Mar 6, 2018)

When I get some free time tonight, I intend to dig out my reference material and records regarding the F4F-3. A couple of points that I recall off the top of my head.
VF-3 had taken VF-2's spot aboard _Lex _from mid-January until mid-April as VF-2 rid itself of the Brewster F2A-3s it started the war with. The navy had stripped the three USMC squadrons that were operating F4F-3s of aircraft in order to supplement the carrier based VF and also re-equip VF-2 with the better platform. VF-2 originally received a large number of F4F-3As and trained with them while _Lex_ was in the South Pacific. But the navy recognized that the standard F4F-3 was better suited than the F4F-3A (equipped with a P&W R-1830-96 and single stage supercharger) and decided to make sure VF-2 had the better version before sailing in mid-April. This caused a major re-shuffling of assets at the last moment. VMF-212 had started taking VF-3's aircraft as that squadron started receiving F4F-4s, but had to turn right around and swap them for VF-2's F4F-3As. So VF-2 sailed with F4F-3s that had been with VF-3 and then VMF-212 for a few days and it appears that F-5 did not have the VF-3 insignia removed, not to mention the kill markings that had been applied.

As for the kill markings, they may have been applied for the photo shoots that VF-3 did for public relations purposes. Whether F-5 was actually credited with being the mount in which 4 aerial victories were credited to is possible. But we also know that F-15 was the aircraft O'Hare flew on his historic mission but the public relations photo shoot has him in F-3, so proceed with caution. It also appears that F-5 has been renumbered at some point as the paint under the number 5 appears darker, but that is only an unscientific observation on my part. I know that it has been posted elsewhere that F-5 was BuNo 4009 and it very well may be, hopefully they took some close-up photos of the rudder and vertical stab and we will know for sure.

Looking forward to more.

BW

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## buffnut453 (Mar 6, 2018)

Sorry Jan but I beat you to the punch:

FOUND!!! USS Lexington (CV-2)


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## buffnut453 (Mar 6, 2018)

And here are some Devastators:











I think I can make out 'T-4', 'T-5' and 'T-9' on the 3 visible airframes.

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## BiffF15 (Mar 6, 2018)

buffnut453 said:


> And here are some Devastators:
> 
> View attachment 485134
> 
> ...



They are in surprisingly good condition for the time / salt water equation.

Cheers,
Biff

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## tomo pauk (Mar 6, 2018)

Amazing. How come they look so un-touched after decades?


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## buffnut453 (Mar 6, 2018)

tomo pauk said:


> Amazing. How come they look so un-touched after decades?



Lexington is sitting at a depth of about 2 miles. For comparison, the Titanic was at a depth of about 2.37 miles. In short, there's not much down there to disturb the aircraft.

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## BiffF15 (Mar 6, 2018)

tomo pauk said:


> Amazing. How come they look so un-touched after decades?



I think the depth has something to do with it, or to be more precise there might be less oxygen at that depth to encourage oxidation / degradation.

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## buffnut453 (Mar 6, 2018)

BiffF15 said:


> I think the depth has something to do with it, or to be more precise there might be less oxygen at that depth to encourage oxidation / degradation.



Concur.

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## MIflyer (Mar 6, 2018)

I've been doing some research on the Coral Sea battle. There's not nearly as much on it as there on Midway. I have two books as yet unread, "The First Team" about USN fighter combat in early 1942 and "No Greater Honor" about the USS Yorktown.

At Midway the TBD's were all but wiped out and did no real damage to the IJN. But at Coral Sea no TBD's were lost and they got some hits. The difference was that at Coral Sea they sent four F4F's in close with the TBD's. They lost all the F4F's but no TBD's. At Midway some genius decided to keep all the F4F's up high rather than sending any down low to cover the TBD's. The result was the majority of F4F's never engaged the enemy. The Hornet F4F's stayed with the SBD's, never made it to the combat area over the IJN and a number ran out of fuel and ditched. When VT-8 broke off from the course they had been ordered to fly and flew what Lt Cmdr John Waldron thought was the correct one to find the IJN fleet, they did so without fighter cover and were spotted and reported on by an IJN floatplane on the way. The Yorktown F4F's stayed up high, waiting for a radio call to come down and help, never heard a call, did not aid the TBD's or SBD's, and ended up recovering at Midway. 

The Lady Lex was lost at Coral Sea when they turned off the nitrogen inerting blanket, unaware that fumes from broken avgas tanks were leaking into a generator room. The result was a FAE deep in the bowels of the ship. She was in pretty good shape, the damage being controlled, but when that went off, it was all over.

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## tomo pauk (Mar 6, 2018)

Thank you for the replies 
Oh, and a million US$ question - can Mr. Allen salvage the aircraft without clashing with the USN?

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## Peter Gunn (Mar 6, 2018)

BiffF15 said:


> I think the depth has something to do with it, or to be more precise there might be less oxygen at that depth to encourage oxidation / degradation.


Agreed, that and the temp being rather low, you should see some of the stuff on the bottom of the Great Lakes ( fresh water ), some shipwrecks are remarkably well preserved. A friend of mine dove on a wooden propeller steamer that sank around 1900 and the wiring for the electric lights was still intact. Amazing... creepy, but still pretty amazing.

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## vikingBerserker (Mar 6, 2018)

Those are the best preserved Devastators I've seen. The only other one I am aware of is somewhere off the coast of Florida.

It would be awesome if they could be salvaged.

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## Donivanp (Mar 6, 2018)

The ship is to be held as a War Graves. It would be cool to recover some of the aircraft though. There's a Diorama for someone.


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## buffnut453 (Mar 6, 2018)

The problem is the ship is in 3 pieces with wreckage spread over an area. I think it would be splitting hairs to treat the aircraft as somehow not part of the war grave...and that's before we consider the long-running challenge of persuading the USN to permit the recovery of any aircraft because the Navy traditionally views ANY aircraft as still belonging to the Service, irrespective of where it's found or how long since it was lost.

Anyhoo...back to the piccies. Here are a few more Devastator shots, with another identifiable airframe 'T-8':












Also, a close up of the kill markings on Wildcat 'F-5':


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## BuNo02100 (Mar 6, 2018)

That last pic posted of F4F-3 "F-5" shows not only 4 traditional aerial victories, but what appears to be a marking denoting a bomb, perhaps for action at during the Lae/Salamaua raid of 10 March 1942. VF-3 flew cover and AAA suppression and carried 100 pound bombs, which LtCmdr Thach and most of the aviators apparently despised. The name under the cockpit is almost readable, perhaps a closer pic or higher quality scan will fill in the missing blank. It would help determine who the aircraft was assigned, not necessarily who flew it all the time. But that could be determined by any records that remain, or possibly Lundstrom's The First Team................

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## buffnut453 (Mar 6, 2018)

'3-F-5' was associated with Lt Albert O. Vorse so perhaps this airframe was associated with him?


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## BiffF15 (Mar 6, 2018)

Last letter looks like an “R”.


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## Donivanp (Mar 6, 2018)

*From Wikipedia, They never get it wrong ;-()*

*VF-3[edit]*
Vorse was attached to the aircraft carrier _Saratoga_'s VF-3 fighter squadron in January 1941.[9] VF-3's division leaders were men like Commanding Officer Jimmy Thach, credited with developing the eponymous Thach Weave, and Donald Lovelace, for whom the destroyer escort USS _Lovelace_ was later named. Vorse was a section leader in the squadron. VF-3 bore an imposing pedigree: it was the first carrier-trained unit (then called VF-2) and among the first to employ dive bombing tactics (as VB-2B).[10]

Though his stint with VF-3 was a short one, he did see aerial combat with the unit and was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for actions performed on 20 February 1942. On that day, several Japanese Kawanishi H6K flying boats had followed the aircraft carrier _Lexington_ and vectored Japanese carrier bombers and Mitsubishi G4M land attack planes to her coordinates. Thach's 1st Division splashed some of these snoopers but ran through its fuel reserves and was forced to land back aboard _Lexington_. Lovejoy's 2nd Division (of which Vorse was a section leader) went up as relief, but had yet to meet the enemy by the time Gayler's 3rd Division—launched early on a hunch—went skyward. What transpired next would give the Navy its first ace of World War II as well as its first Medal of Honor recipient for the war.

The first group of the Imperial Japanese Navy's 4th _kokutai_ showed up on the scene and was rapidly intercepted by _Lexington_'s CAP. The men of VF-3's 3rd Division were the first to intercept this initial wave of bombers, and each section of Gayler's division was credited at least one bomber downed. Meanwhile, as 2nd Division was en route to landing, they were re-routed for intercept to assist 3rd Division. They arrived just in time to harry the disorganized bombers. Vorse and four other pilots in 2nd Division finished the Japanese attack, earning one credit each before they moved on to the attack planes that were retreating. Refueled and ready to enter the arena once more, Thach's 1st Division—sans a reserve crew of Butch O'Hare and Duff Dufilho—took to the skies just as a gas-depleted 2nd Division was finally landing aboard _Lexington_. The 1st Division worked over the land planes and even had an assist by a _Lexington_ Douglas SBD Dauntless from VS-2, which finished off the Japanese land planes and forced the last air-worthy bomber to retreat.





Albert O. "Scoop" Vorse Jr. pictured seated second from the left.
A second division of the 4th _kokutai_, split up from its sister division in order to better find _Lexington_ in the overcast weather, would be badly thrashed by O'Hare and Dufilho. The two pilots were the only fighters available to intercept the bombers in time given available resources. With "Duff" Dufilho's guns jammed, it would fall to O'Hare to single-handedly scatter the enemy. O'Hare performed the feat, earning himself five kills and propelling him into the history books as the Navy's first Medal of Honor recipient and ace of the war.

*VF-2[edit]*
After _Saratoga_ was torpedoed on 11 January 1942, the aircraft carrier was forced to return to Pearl Harbor for repairs. Soon to arrive at Pearl Harbor for refitting and redeployment was USS _Lexington_, which incidentally needed experienced aviators to fill out the ranks of its much-depleted VF-2 squadron. The two had already traded air groups in the wake of _Saratoga_'s battle damage so there was some familiarity between the carriers. Since _Saratoga_'s repairs would take months to finish and the Navy was aware of trouble brewing in the area of the Coral Sea, 12 April 1942 Jimmy Thach loaned a number of VF-3 pilots to VF-2 CO Paul H. Ramsey. Vorse was among those sent over to _Lexington_ and would remain with VF-2 until 16 June 1942, mere weeks before its disestablishment.

The Battle of the Coral Sea would begin seemingly inauspiciously for "Scoop" Vorse. Rotten weather caused him and his wingmen to lose track of the VT-2 Douglas TBD Devastators they were charged with shepherding to the target area. With no hope of reconnecting with the outbound torpedo bombers, his section was forced to head back to _Lexington_. The change in plans wound up assisting in the defense of Task Force 17, however, when Vorse, returning to the formation of ships, broke through the clouds and into the flak-filled skies above _Lexington_ and _Yorktown_. Almost immediately he spotted a lone Aichi D3A Val dive bomber making a run on _Yorktown_. Vorse zeroed in from above and followed the Val into the beginnings of its dive, shearing the enemy aircraft's wing from its fuselage with a hail of bullets. Even with this last-second effort, the Japanese bomb splashed dangerously close to _Yorktown_, exploding only a few hundred feet from port.[10]:Ch. 12[11]


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## buffnut453 (Mar 6, 2018)

Perhaps "WARNER"?


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## BuNo02100 (Mar 6, 2018)

I am going to probably have to say that F-5 was "assigned" to Noel Gayler and the kill markings and bomb mission represent his activities, not necessarily that he was flying the aircraft when those were credited. He had 4 victories prior to Coral Sea and took part in the Lae-Sal raid on 10 March. Looks like what may be a "G" and the last looks like an "R." The aircraft may have been painted up for PR photos in Hawaii similar to F-1 for Thach and F-3 for O'Hare.

Interesting detail, Gayler was transferred to VF-2 prior to Coral Sea after his time with VF-3. That is not ironclad proof, just a coincidence of sorts that was created by the necessity of the early days of the war in the Pacific.

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## Ascent (Mar 6, 2018)

All other considerations aside I would think that the fact that they are 2 miles down would make them impractical to recover.


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## Marcel (Mar 6, 2018)

Salvaging a ship from 3km down is virtually impossible. 

Cool photos. I hope they will leave her alone after this .


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## tomo pauk (Mar 6, 2018)

Marcel said:


> Salvaging a ship from 3km down is virtually impossible.
> 
> Cool photos. I hope they will leave her alone after this .



I'm sure that no-one will try to salvage parts of the ship - apart from being water grave, it is a dan heavy thing, even broken in several pieces.
I'm more interesting about the A/C, they appear to be in excellent condition with regard to the time passed and location.


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## Gnomey (Mar 6, 2018)

Great find!

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Mar 6, 2018)

tomo pauk said:


> Thank you for the replies
> Oh, and a million US$ question - can Mr. Allen salvage the aircraft without clashing with the USN?


?? Does the fact that the Lex and her aircraft lie in International Waters affect the salvage, recovery process?


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## tomo pauk (Mar 6, 2018)

Hansie Bloeckmann said:


> ?? Does the fact that the Lex and her aircraft lie in International Waters affect the salvage, recovery process?



Don't know.
I love the techical stuff, but loathe the legal stuff and the 'right of the strongest'.

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Mar 6, 2018)

tomo pauk said:


> Don't know.
> I love the techical stuff, but loathe the legal stuff and the 'right of the strongest'.


Just saw on the evening news fotos of the Lex- and the computer tycoon who is involved in this "project"--about 500 miles NE from the Australian Coast, if I read it correctly- that's all- no longitude/latitude co-ordinates given out, nor confirmation of the depth where she rests-


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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Mar 6, 2018)

vikingBerserker said:


> Those are the best preserved Devastators I've seen. The only other one I am aware of is somewhere off the coast of Florida.
> 
> It would be awesome if they could be salvaged.


Viking- Eastern Coast area? Anywhere near the fabled "Bermuda Triangle" that runs in a line from the Gulf Stream to near Bimini?? Just wondering.


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## buffnut453 (Mar 6, 2018)

Here's one more pic showing a slightly different view of the F4F:


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## Capt. Vick (Mar 6, 2018)

What is that, the raft compartment behind the cockpit?


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## buffnut453 (Mar 6, 2018)

Capt. Vick said:


> What is that, the raft compartment behind the cockpit?



Yep.


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## parsifal (Mar 6, 2018)

I once read that many of the fittings in the Lex had been installed to a civilian standard, and were easier to knock out due to shock damage. Possibly. Her sister Saratoga showed a propensity to take damage fairly easily as well.

It has also been said on occasion that if the Lex had suffered hits in 1944 similar to those she sustained at Coral sea, she would easily have survived. That is very plausible IMO


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## tomo pauk (Mar 7, 2018)

Looks like the naval warfare in ww2 happened only in Pacific - Lexington was the 1st aircraft carrier that sunk: link
Amazing.



parsifal said:


> I once read that many of the fittings in the Lex had been installed to a civilian standard, and were easier to knock out due to shock damage. Possibly. Her sister Saratoga showed a propensity to take damage fairly easily as well.
> 
> It has also been said on occasion that if the Lex had suffered hits in 1944 similar to those she sustained at Coral sea, she would easily have survived. That is very plausible IMO



Battle damage control learned plenty from 1942 to 1944.
Both Lex and Sara were from 1920s, no wonder their protection lagged behind what was produced after ~1935. Check out how much of punishment was the POW able to sustain vs. Repulse.


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## MIflyer (Mar 7, 2018)

Before we lost the Lady Lex:
The HMS Courageous was sunk on 17 Sep 1939 by a U-boat.
The HMS Glorious was sunk by gunfire from the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau on 9 Jun 1940
The HMS Ark Royal was sunk by a U-boat in 1941. 
The HMS Hermes was sunk by IJN aircraft on 9 April 1942

The loss of the HMS Glorious was especially absurd. The carrier was supporting the defense of Norway but the captain requested permission to return to England so he could court-martial one of his officers. The ship set out for home with only a destroyer for escort and without putting up air patrols. The Captain died in the sinking, which I guess eliminated the need for his own court-martial.


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## BiffF15 (Mar 7, 2018)

Does or did the Devastator have cloth elevators / rudder? From looking at the picture the wrinkles make it appear to be canvas? Would be impressive for cloth to have lasted that long and still hold the paint as well.

Cheers,
Biff


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## Njaco (Mar 7, 2018)

Latest Update is:
7 Devastators
3 Dauntless
1 Wildcat

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## Capt. Vick (Mar 7, 2018)

I know right! I thought the same thing.


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## vikingBerserker (Mar 7, 2018)

Another contributing factor to her loss was the policy of painting. Instead of stripping off the old coat, year after year new coats were applied. It was believed it helped cause a number of explosions and fires later on.

The US's first carrier USS Langley (CV-1) was lost on Feb 27th of 1942 loaded up with crated P-40's IIRC. However she had been converted to a Seaplane tender (AV-3) by then.


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## Bad-Karma (Mar 7, 2018)

I hope this doesn't come across as insensitive but why is she considered a war grave? Were the dead not evaced with the rest of the crew?


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## MIflyer (Mar 7, 2018)

Supposedly the Lex had VT-2 on board and 19 of her TBD's were taken on board the USS Yorktown. Note that before the big FAE that took her out she was unable to launch or receive aircraft due to other damage. 36 airplanes went down with her, 13 of them TBD's.


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## Njaco (Mar 7, 2018)

Note that a number of them have their wings folded. Especially T-4 and T-9


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## Capt. Vick (Mar 7, 2018)

I have not seen a Dauntless picture yet.

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## MIflyer (Mar 7, 2018)

"It has also been said on occasion that if the Lex had suffered hits in 1944 similar to those she sustained at Coral sea, she would easily have survived."

The US Navy had the very great advantage of having some reserve officers who were firefighters in civilian life. They introduced the USN to the latest fire fighting techniques, including the type of nozzle that produced a fine mist. The techniques and equipment went into use during WWII and provided the Navy with vastly superior fire fighting and damage control capabilities.

In the case of the USS Lexington if they had sent someone down to verify that the conditions in the generator compartment were suitable before turning off the nitrogen blanket the ship would not have suffered that massive explosion and would not have sunk. I would guess the USN implemented that policy very soon thereafter.

The largest displacement aircraft carrier in WWII, the IJN Shinano, built on a Yamato Class battleship hull, was lost due to the same problem. The USS Archerfish hit the Shinano with 6 torpedoes while it was on its maiden cruise, en-route to the PI with a load of the new Ohka bombs. But given the armor on that ship 6 torpedo hits was not that big of a problem. Satisfied that things were well in hand, the day after the attack the senior damage control officer turned over the job to a junior officer. The avgas tanks had been ruptured, filling the ship with fumes. The junior officer decided to get rid of the fumes by turning on the blowers; this created the world's biggest FAE. When it detonated that was the end of the ship.

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Mar 7, 2018)

MIflyer said:


> "It has also been said on occasion that if the Lex had suffered hits in 1944 similar to those she sustained at Coral sea, she would easily have survived."
> 
> The US Navy had the very great advantage of having some reserve officers who were firefighters in civilian life. They introduced the USN to the latest fire fighting techniques, including the type of nozzle that produced a fine mist. The techniques and equipment went into use during WWII and provided the Navy with vastly superior fire fighting and damage control capabilities.
> 
> ...



FAE- when the blowers were turned on to vent the ship, would it have been an electric spark that caused the explosion?


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## buffnut453 (Mar 7, 2018)

Bad-Karma said:


> I hope this doesn't come across as insensitive but why is she considered a war grave? Were the dead not evaced with the rest of the crew?



No. Over 200 personnel went down with the Lexington.


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## MIflyer (Mar 7, 2018)

The blowers assured there was plenty of air to mix with the avgas fumes, creating a Fuel-Air Explosive. Once that condition existed any number of things could have set it off.

As to what they should have done, I don't know. Probably flooded the areas where the gasoline was with seawater and then pumped it all overboard. My High School physics teacher was in the USN before WWII and commanded a seaplane tender going through the Panama Canal on 7 Dec 41. He said they never pumped gasoline directly but would take two identical pumps and hook their drive shafts to each other. Then they would take another pump and use it to pump seawater through one of the connected pumps, making it a motor to drive the other pump, which pumped the fuel. That way the fuel was not in contact with a pump that was being driven by an electric motor, eliminating the possibility that a spark could set it off. I suppose that was a pre-war example of an "explosion proof" pump.

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## parsifal (Mar 8, 2018)

Standard DC procedure these days is to seal off the compartment with the leak, hence the term sealed off airtight passageways ways. In a battle situation, you would make attempts to get the people out of there, before pumping CO2 to a pressure above that of surrounding compartments. containment containment containment is the name of the game.

If there is a fire, you try to keep the latent temperature down and starve the fire of both fuel and oxygen. Easier said than done. Your DC crews will go in and attempt to compartmentalize the fire and then gradually bring each compartment under control by bringing the temperature down.

The other less immediate issue is what to do with all the water that is being used to put the fire out. Water can cause electrical shorts and stability issues so sometime the DC officer in charge will need to make a call to discontinue the efforts to fight the fire, because there is a greater risk of capsize or short circuit. And finally a fire that is supposedly in the process of being put out will often generate a lot more smoke, increasing the

It aint easy folks


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## XBe02Drvr (Mar 8, 2018)

Bad-Karma said:


> I hope this doesn't come across as insensitive but why is she considered a war grave? Were the dead not evaced with the rest of the crew?


Sometimes in the inferno you have to save the living and let the dead rest. First thing you learn in Shipboard Firefighting in boot camp.
They send 6 of you with a 1 1/2" hose into a forward compartment aboard USS Neversail over a pool of diesel fuel, close the hatch, and touch it off. If one or more of you goes down, the "survivors" evacuate, the fire is quenched by remote control, and instructors retrieve the "victims". Otherwise you use the hose to sweep the fire into a corner and kill it.
I was there not too long after the Oriskany and Forrestal disasters and the Navy was seriously hard core about damage control. Your shipmates are depending on you.
Cheers,
Wes

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## Juha2 (Mar 8, 2018)

MIflyer said:


> "It has also been said on occasion that if the Lex had suffered hits in 1944 similar to those she sustained at Coral sea, she would easily have survived."
> 
> The US Navy had the very great advantage of having some reserve officers who were firefighters in civilian life. They introduced the USN to the latest fire fighting techniques, including the type of nozzle that produced a fine mist. The techniques and equipment went into use during WWII and provided the Navy with vastly superior fire fighting and damage control capabilities.
> 
> ...



Now you confuse two different cases, Shinano, hit By 4 US sub torpedoes simply flooded, Taiho was the CV that blow up because of the fuel fumes were spread all over the ship after fatal mistake By a junior damage control officer.


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## MIflyer (Mar 8, 2018)

I read a book specifically on the sinking of the Shinano and it said what I described occurred. Maybe the author researched a whole book and got it wrong.


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## Juha2 (Mar 8, 2018)

Both cases are very famous and at least from Morison's series all books I have seen say that Taiho blew up and Shinano capsized after massive flooding, reasons: overconfidence, design flaws and the ship was not complete so there was flaws in watertighteness.


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## Peter Gunn (Mar 8, 2018)

From my readings, it was Shinano that took four torpedoes and flooded, sinking at dawn the next day after a night attack by Archerfish in which the captain set the torpedoes to run shallow hoping to get flooding high in the hull of the ship to capsize her.

Taiho was torpedoed and suffered the same fate as Lady Lex when an inexperienced damage control officer turned on the ventilation system to clear the ship of avgas fumes and blew the ship up.


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## Bad-Karma (Mar 8, 2018)

buffnut453 said:


> No. Over 200 personnel went down with the Lexington.





XBe02Drvr said:


> Sometimes in the inferno you have to save the living and let the dead rest. First thing you learn in Shipboard Firefighting in boot camp.
> They send 6 of you with a 1 1/2" hose into a forward compartment aboard USS Neversail over a pool of diesel fuel, close the hatch, and touch it off. If one or more of you goes down, the "survivors" evacuate, the fire is quenched by remote control, and instructors retrieve the "victims". Otherwise you use the hose to sweep the fire into a corner and kill it.
> I was there not too long after the Oriskany and Forrestal disasters and the Navy was seriously hard core about damage control. Your shipmates are depending on you.
> Cheers,
> Wes



Thank you both, and thank you Wes for that insight into your training. Sometimes it's hard to remove the hindsight and lessons we have learned when discussing ww2. I can't imagine the difficult decisions and uncertainty they faced.


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## vikingBerserker (Mar 8, 2018)

The Shinano had a very inexperienced crew in damage control, it really spoke well of the ship it stayed afloat as long as it did.

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## Barrett (Mar 8, 2018)

LOTS of discussion amongst navalists, of course. Two friends who worked with Ballard have intriguing comments. Nobody's seen a large USN ship so thoroughly broken up, a real surprise. One theory is implosion because Lex sank with many compartments intact. As for the Fox-5 Wildcat, John Lundstrom's da man, check his First Team Vol. I. F-5 was sometimes flown by Lt Noel Gayler (normally F-13), and the victory markings (plus one bomb) seem to reflect that record.

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## tomo pauk (Mar 8, 2018)

Barrett said:


> LOTS of discussion amongst navalists, of course.
> <snip>



Mr. Tillman - what is your take on 'leagalities' with regard to the current ownership of the A/C laying down on the bottom of the sea? How likely is that USN will allow anyone to salvage the A/C without saying 'hold your horses, it is our A/C you have' after the operation is done? 
(all while disregarding, for the moment, the technical challenges for the salvage operation itself)


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## BiffF15 (Mar 8, 2018)

tomo pauk said:


> Mr. Tillman - what is your take on 'leagalities' with regard to the current ownership of the A/C laying down on the bottom of the sea? How likely is that USN will allow anyone to salvage the A/C without saying 'hold your horses, it is our A/C you have' after the operation is done?
> (all while disregarding, for the moment, the technical challenges for the salvage operation itself)



From what i’ve read the USN does not play well with others regards salvaged aircraft.

Cheers
Biff

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## XBe02Drvr (Mar 8, 2018)

BiffF15 said:


> From what i’ve read the USN does not play well with others regards salvaged aircraft.
> 
> Cheers
> Biff


"We bought it, we paid for it, and it's OURS til hell freezes over! If you want to recover it for us, feel free, but understand it's our property and you are liable for any damage occurring in the process."
Ayup, doesn't sound like good kindergarten ettiquete to me.
Cheers,
Wes


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## XBe02Drvr (Mar 8, 2018)

Bad-Karma said:


> Thank you both, and thank you Wes for that insight into your training. Sometimes it's hard to remove the hindsight and lessons we have learned when discussing ww2. I can't imagine the difficult decisions and uncertainty they faced.


Let's hear it for high velocity fog, light water, foam, and purple K powder, all firefighting staples of my time in the Nav that had their roots in WWII.
Cheers,
Wes


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## ArmouredSprue (Mar 8, 2018)

This is amazing indeed


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## BiffF15 (Mar 8, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> "We bought it, we paid for it, and it's OURS til hell freezes over! If you want to recover it for us, feel free, but understand it's our property and you are liable for any damage occurring in the process."
> Ayup, doesn't sound like good kindergarten ettiquete to me.
> Cheers,
> Wes



Actually the taxpayers laid down the cash...


Cheers,
Biff

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## buffnut453 (Mar 8, 2018)

BiffF15 said:


> Actually the taxpayers laid down the cash...
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Biff



Great. So can I have my quarter rivet as back-pay?

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## vikingBerserker (Mar 8, 2018)

Dibs on 1/4 of rivet # 54,677!!!

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## buffnut453 (Mar 8, 2018)

Awww, I wanted that one!!!!

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## Shortround6 (Mar 8, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Let's hear it for high velocity fog, light water, foam, and purple K powder, all firefighting staples of my time in the Nav that had their roots in WWII.
> Cheers,
> Wes


 Many of which were mis-applied for years in land based structural fire fighting 
Most timber frame (or even brick) structures being much less air tight than steel ships.

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## Peter Gunn (Mar 9, 2018)

buffnut453 said:


> Awww, I wanted that one!!!!


BOYS!!! No bickering! I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

First we'll need to form a committee to study the effects of removing 1/4 rivet # 54,677 and the possible impact it will have on rivets # 54,676 and 54,678 with a sub committee to study the effects on the other 3/4 of rivet 54,677. We'll also have to elect someone to chair a panel to study how rivets 55,668, 55,669 and 66,275 might be impacted along with panel # 7435.

And that's just for starters...

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## buffnut453 (Mar 9, 2018)

Peter Gunn said:


> BOYS!!! No bickering! I'm from the government and I'm here to help.
> 
> First we'll need to form a committee to study the effects of removing 1/4 rivet # 54,677 and the possible impact it will have on rivets # 54,676 and 54,678 with a sub committee to study the effects on the other 3/4 of rivet 54,677. We'll also have to elect someone to chair a panel to study how rivets 55,668, 55,669 and 66,275 might be impacted along with panel # 7435.
> 
> And that's just for starters...



I've decided I'm against the arbitrary selection of rivets. All rivets should be treated the same. Equal rights for metal fasteners!!!

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## XBe02Drvr (Mar 9, 2018)

buffnut453 said:


> I've decided I'm against the arbitrary selection of rivets. All rivets should be treated the same. Equal rights for metal fasteners!!!


Hey don't leave out fabric surfaces, guys! So well preserved after all these years, they deserve equal consideration. End discrimination!


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## Peter Gunn (Mar 9, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Hey don't leave out fabric surfaces, guys! So well preserved after all these years, they deserve equal consideration. End discrimination!


Wes, now you're talking about a full scale Senate investigation headed by a special counsel appointed by the President as to why fabric surfaces have been excluded from the discussion.

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## vikingBerserker (Mar 9, 2018)

#FabricsLivesMater

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## XBe02Drvr (Mar 9, 2018)

Yes, we seem to have a gender bias regarding the superiority of hard over soft. Equal opportunity for all! Breach the plexiglass ceiling!


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## buffnut453 (Mar 9, 2018)

vikingBerserker said:


> #FabricsLivesMater



It's rampant rayoncism, that's what it is!!!

Perhaps we should get back to the Lexington....!

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## Peter Gunn (Mar 9, 2018)

^^^ *SIGH*


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## buffnut453 (Mar 9, 2018)

I'll be here all week!

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## yosimitesam (Mar 9, 2018)

Bad-Karma said:


> I hope this doesn't come across as insensitive but why is she considered a war grave? Were the dead not evaced with the rest of the crew?


A small number of the crew were killed and entombed in the ship. Only one dead sailor who's body is not recovered from a sunken ship makes it a "War Grave". Part of international agreements. It's a federal crime to tamper with a War Grave.


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## yosimitesam (Mar 9, 2018)

Peter Gunn said:


> BOYS!!! No bickering! I'm from the government and I'm here to help.
> 
> First we'll need to form a committee to study the effects of removing 1/4 rivet # 54,677 and the possible impact it will have on rivets # 54,676 and 54,678 with a sub committee to study the effects on the other 3/4 of rivet 54,677. We'll also have to elect someone to chair a panel to study how rivets 55,668, 55,669 and 66,275 might be impacted along with panel # 7435.
> 
> And that's just for starters...


You forgot the environmental impact study and 90-day comment period.

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## yosimitesam (Mar 9, 2018)

Barrett said:


> LOTS of discussion amongst navalists, of course. Two friends who worked with Ballard have intriguing comments. Nobody's seen a large USN ship so thoroughly broken up, a real surprise. One theory is implosion because Lex sank with many compartments intact. As for the Fox-5 Wildcat, John Lundstrom's da man, check his First Team Vol. I. F-5 was sometimes flown by Lt Noel Gayler (normally F-13), and the victory markings (plus one bomb) seem to reflect that record.


It could also be the fact that some sections of ship were flooded (enough to entire ship negatively buoyant) but parts that were not flooded were still buoyant enough to cause "hogging" of the ship structure on its long journey to the bottom. Stresses could have exceeded all design parameters since they are not built to "sink" but to float in all kinds of seas.


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## Capt. Vick (Mar 9, 2018)

I have always wondered:

How much time has to pass before a grave site becomes an archeological site?


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## Njaco (Mar 9, 2018)

Rivets. Sheesh. Ya gotta think big. I call dibs on the Felix insignia!


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## XBe02Drvr (Mar 9, 2018)

Capt. Vick said:


> I have always wondered:
> 
> How much time has to pass before a grave site becomes an archeological site?


That's easy.
If they're your ancestors, it's a grave site: if they're some other culture's ancestors, doesn't matter how long it's been, it's archeological.
Cheers,
Wes

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## Capt. Vick (Mar 9, 2018)

XBe02Drvr said:


> That's easy.
> If they're your ancestors, it's a grave site: if they're some other culture's ancestors, doesn't matter how long it's been, it's archeological.
> Cheers,
> Wes



Sounds about right!


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## Barrett (Mar 17, 2018)

Capt. Vick said:


> I have always wondered:
> 
> How much time has to pass before a grave site becomes an archeological site?



Good question, and I'm not sure there's a definitive answer. From personal and secondary knowledge, the most likely answer is: IT DEPENDS. Courts are seldom consistent in their findings (hence the appeal process) and that applies to admiralty law as well. In Lex's case, the remote locale and depth are likely to ensure that she remains largely untouched indefinitely.


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## gumbyk (Mar 19, 2018)

They've just found another one - this time the USS Juneau: Microsoft Co-Founder's Crew Finds Yet Another Long Lost WWII Vessel - See The First Images

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