# 'Hitler's Stealth Fighter' on National Geographic



## Butters (Apr 14, 2009)

This looks like it might be fun. The folks at Northrop Grumman built a full-scale model of the Go 229 for RCS testing. The producer/director of the show is the same guy who did 'The Battle of the X-Planes', so chances are it will be a good one.

Stealth Shooter | Avenue

JL


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## sturmer (Apr 14, 2009)

im actually looking forward to this show, it would be great to actually see how advanced the german technology was and it would even create more 'what if' scenario's.
and all that on a request of a dying friend, thats friendship my friends


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## Trebor (Apr 14, 2009)

looks like it's gonna be lotsa fun to watch! I'll keep a watch on this thread to remind me to set a reminder. lol


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## Matt308 (Apr 14, 2009)

Fun to watch, but historically silly. The Horton was not designed with Stealth as a high level requirement. It just happened to be a byproduct of the tailess design. Same as that of Jack Northrop's designs.

So reading the article where the primary thrust is determining if "...Nazi Germany invented the world’s first stealth fighter, beating the U.S. to the skies by 40 years with the development of radar-resistant aircraft?" is utter Hollywood revisionist history.


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## Trebor (Apr 14, 2009)

yeah, good point, Matt. that got me too. I believe it's the way the F-117, B-2, and F-22 are designed. they look kinda like folded paper, almost. but I also think it's some kind of top secret material used by the government


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## gumbyk (Apr 14, 2009)

Trebor said:


> they look kinda like folded paper, almost. but I also think it's some kind of top secret material used by the government



From what I've heard, its more the paint/surface coatings used that absorb radar.

When they visited New Zealand, one of our guys (no-one knows who it was, obviously) put a squadron sticker on one. Apparently they had to repaint the whole aircraft!


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## A4K (Apr 15, 2009)

With Matt.

The Horten brothers designed their flying wings with aerodynamics in mind - nothing to do with 'Stealth technology' at all.


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## Wurger (Apr 15, 2009)

I agree with Matt and A4K.No advanced german technology at all.Simply a shape made with the aerodynamics rules.


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## GrauGeist (Apr 15, 2009)

The Hortons (and Lippisch) had been working with a delta shape for quite some time, long before radar was effectively used as a wartime countermeasure.

I think the producers of this show went with this because of the sensationalism more than any historical coincidence.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Apr 15, 2009)

Sounds like it's entertaining, but historically inaccurate. I've found more info on WW2 aircraft here then the revisionit stuff Hollywood cranks out.


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## Soren (Apr 16, 2009)

I'd still love to see the show, but I don't have the channel sadly.

Is it possible that someone could provide it for me ? I'd be most thankful 

As for the Go-229, it was from the beginning designed for maximum lift, minimal drag, high ceiling maximum endurance. The radar signature of the a/c wasn't even thought off to begin with. However I do remember reading that during one of the first flights of the jet powered prototypes the Horten brothers suddenly discovered, almost by accident, that the a/c had close to no radar signature at all. After this discovery some sort of radar absorbing material was to be fitted on the production model, which was 90% finished by the time the Allies captured it.


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## Butters (Apr 17, 2009)

Yeah, yeah...I know that stealth was not a criteria behind the Go 229's design. And I suspect that the creators of the show know it as well.

Someone has gotta pay to make these shows, and given that the percentage of the population that is interested in late-war Luftwaffe projects is probably pretty small, it was natural to go for a wider audience with the 'Stealth' schtick...

Remember, what really counts is that WE get to see lots'a nice shots of a very cool little flying-wing fighter.  

JL


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## RabidAlien (Apr 17, 2009)

Butters said:


> Remember, what really counts is that WE get to see lots'a nice shots of a very cool little flying-wing fighter.
> 
> JL



Heh. I'm with ya there!!!


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## GrauGeist (Apr 17, 2009)

Soren said:


> I'd still love to see the show, but I don't have the channel sadly.
> 
> Is it possible that someone could provide it for me ? I'd be most thankful
> 
> As for the Go-229, it was from the beginning designed for maximum lift, minimal drag, high ceiling maximum endurance. The radar signature of the a/c wasn't even thought off to begin with. However I do remember reading that during one of the first flights of the jet powered prototypes the Horten brothers suddenly discovered, almost by accident, that the a/c had close to no radar signature at all. After this discovery some sort of radar absorbing material was to be fitted on the production model, which was 90% finished by the time the Allies captured it.



Another thing the Ho229/Go229 had in it's suggested "stealth" favor, was that it was made from a large percentage of non-metallic composite materials, much like the He162.

Early radar technology was more sensative to metallic materials than modern radar, which is why the early radar counter-measures were bundles of foil strips, wire peices or other metallic material (called Window or Düppel).


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## Soren (Apr 19, 2009)

Roger that GrauGeist.

I wonder if this baby would've shown on radar   :


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## sturmer (Apr 19, 2009)

im pretty certain on that one mate


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## Soren (Apr 20, 2009)

Yeah, just fly two of those over German territory and you'd blind any radar


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## GrauGeist (Apr 20, 2009)




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## DataBoy (Apr 30, 2009)

Let me say that I respect everyone rights to have an opinion. What does it matter if the Horten's were trying to build a stealth aircraft or not? It's irrelevant. The fact is Northrop Grumman - the team that invented the first all aspect stealth aircraft (TACIT BLUE), the YF-23 and the B-2 ran a battery of tests on the skin of the H0 229 V3 skin at the Garber Facility. They also tested it ib their RCS lab and at their Tejon Radar Range and proved its a stealth aircraft. These are not fly by night engineers but the guys who helped invent modern stealth! If the data supports their claim and the Ho 229 is stealthy - decades ahead of its time than "opinion" or emotion on this seems to be even sillier........


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## GrauGeist (Apr 30, 2009)

DataBoy, I'm sure that you're aware of the fact that radar was in it's very early stages during WWII. The advanced concept of radar stealth technology was still years away.

The fact that the Go229/Ho229 and subsequent variations of the wing (Lippisch's included) show stealth properties are coincidental.

The aircraft's shape combined with the fact that the wing and fuselage componets were made from a non-metallic composite (wood polymer) are major factors in this case.

In a modern battlefield situation, the Go229/Ho229 would show up like a neon sign.


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## Henk (May 1, 2009)

Firstly I would like to say it is Ho-229 and not Gotha 229. Although Gotha got the contract to build the plane it was still a Horten product. They only helped the Horten brothers out with the manufacturing.

That said and done. It is funny how the TV shows will come to making a show about something and what they will use to make it a hit. I do not think the Horten brothers thought about stealth when they designed the plane.

Even when the B-2 project started they had a look at the Ho-229 to see if there is something they missed. The Horten brothers did do a great job when it came to designing flying wings for their time.


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## GrauGeist (May 2, 2009)

Henk said:


> Firstly I would like to say it is Ho-229 and not Gotha 229. Although Gotha got the contract to build the plane it was still a Horten product. They only helped the Horten brothers out with the manufacturing.


And that's why I usually post Ho229/Go229, because many folks mistake them for seperate aircraft 

It is no coincidence that the B-2 looks alot like the Horton machine, because Jack Northrop was a wing pioneer like the Hortons and Lippisch and produced a number of "flying wings".

We had a great discussion about the wings in this thread: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-pictures/german-flying-wings-15300-2.html


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## vikingBerserker (May 2, 2009)

It seams we could take the same criteria the show is using and state the Wright Flyer was the first true Stealth Aircraft.


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## RabidAlien (May 2, 2009)

True dat....radar would probably pick up the pilot's watch before they'd see the plane..


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## Soren (May 2, 2009)

One thing is for sure though, the Ho-229 wasn't designed to be a stealth fighter. That its actual stealth capabilities were discovered by the Germans during the prototype stage, resulting in a special coating to be added, is another matter though.


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## DataBoy (May 7, 2009)

I guess we can all watch National Geographic on June 28th to 
see the results. In the end, real data collected by experts
DATA don't take sides...


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## GrauGeist (May 7, 2009)

DataBoy said:


> I guess we can all watch National Geographic on June 28th to see the results. In the end, real data collected by experts
> DATA don't take sides...


lol @ experts...

We just discussed the fact that radar technology was in it's infancy in the late 30's and early 40's...

There was no way they (the Germans) could have known anything regarding radar absorbing material (much of which hadn't been invented yet), let alone configuring the shape of the aircraft to reduce or manipulate the radar image on screens that only showed dots or "blips" and not any definition of objects. The dots were simply an indication of an something being detected wether it was a thin strip of tin foil or a B-24.

Had the technology been that far advanced, then the airwar in Korea would have been far different than it was, not to mention the technological developments that followed from then on.


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## Konigstiger205 (May 7, 2009)

Even if it was just a coincidence, the fact that the plane had stealth capabilities its still a remarkable thing. I look forward to the documentary, because I was truly curious about the Ho 229 performance and abilities.


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## thehortenman (May 21, 2009)

Hope you enjoyed the show.


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## GrauGeist (May 22, 2009)

Tim, welcome to the forum.

My main thing is that everyone is being led to beleive that the Ho-IX was designed as a stealth aircraft.

It wasn't, it's design was years in development and thier goal was to reduce drag as much as possible. Coupled with the lightweight materials, it was hoped that the Ho-IX design would allow the Luftwaffe to attack priority targets that were up to that point, impossible to reach because of range, defenses, etc.

It is true that Reiman used charcoal dust in the wood glue in an attempt to absorb radar waves, but the overall design and construction of the aircraft had nothing to do with modern stealth technology.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 22, 2009)

thehortenman said:


> I just happend to be the lead on the HO 229 project at Northrop Grumman. I am one of those so called "Experts"... I have been building Stealth Prototypes and Models for 29 years now. My first project was Tacit Blue then the B-2 and the list goes on... I, and a group of other Engineers at Nothrop Grumman, Got a chance to look closely and test the skin of the real HO 229 at the Garber in Md. and it does contain a significant amount of carbon between all the outer skin layers. Also the historian, David Myhra discussed these issues with the Hortens in Argentina and they did know about the shielding/absorbing qualitys of carbon, I.E. (German Submarine parascopes).
> I realize that many who dont know or understand the actual phenomenology behind Stealth and what makes it work may have their doubts but let me assure you, We do. We went to great lengths to recreate all aspects of the HO 229 to get real data. We did our homework. The finished model will be set up in the air museam in San Diego California on June 23 2009. It was fun to build it and I cant wait to build the next Model "America Bomber" With a wing span of 192' . Ya baby !
> 
> Tim



Good info Tim, a question.

This carbon between the outer skins layers of the -229. How is it laid out? Is it in sheets or mixed in with the resins used on the aircraft? How does it compare to some of the lay ups found on say the B-2? BTW I worked on the F-117 and "other" programs, a few of us here have worked around Stealth technology.


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## thehortenman (May 23, 2009)

Hope you enjoyed the show.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 24, 2009)

Very interesting information. Thanks for sharing. It kind of sheds some light on the subject.


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## Butters (May 24, 2009)

Great stuff, Tim. I hope that after the show is aired, you can give us some in-depth info on what was learned from the project.

It's great having your participation here. Thanks

JL


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## johnbr (May 24, 2009)

Yes thanks for all the info and the hard work you all did on the Doc.


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## RabidAlien (May 26, 2009)

I'll have to DVR it, now.


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## A4K (Jun 3, 2009)

Interesting info Tim, thanks !


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## Messy1 (Jun 3, 2009)

Thanks! Very interesting stuff! When is the episode scheduled to air?


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## thehortenman (Jun 3, 2009)

hope you enjoyed the show.


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## ghethco (Jun 6, 2009)

I also had the privilege of working on "Hitler's Stealth Fighter". I built models of the Ho 229 and Ho XVIII for the film, in addition to building the cockpit for the full size model. I also play the pilot, Erwin Ziller, in a non-speaking role.

FWIW, my take on this -- as for whether the Ho 229 was designed for stealth or not, who cares? What makes the Ho 229 so fascinating is the fact that its development and testing is so mysterious. We don't even know for sure how many times the V2 was flown by Erwin Ziller. He didn't log all of his flights! Partly because of the unique nature of the project, and partly because of the Walter and Reimar's personalities, there are many unknowns and discrepancies surrounding the project. The brothers themselves added to the problem. After the war they did a certain amount of 'revision' themselves about the work and what motivated it. Their genius, however, is undeniable.

As a huge fan of the Horten brothers and their work, I'm just glad that this film got made. It's a fascinating plane that many people don't even know about. And I can tell you this -- if you're at all interested in the topic -- this film will knock your socks off!!! It sets a new standard for documentaries of this kind. In fact it's hard to call it a documentary at all. It's so much more than that. Tune in and find out 

Gary


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 6, 2009)

Next showing per NG website is Sun Jun 28 9P.


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## Soren (Jun 7, 2009)

I wonder if it will hit NAT GEO in Denmark in June, I certainly hope so..


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## A4K (Jun 10, 2009)

Sound good Gary and Tim! I hope we get it here in Hungary.

Evan


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## ghethco (Jun 17, 2009)

NatGeo has put up a web page for HSF, this is a very good teaser...

Hitler's Stealth Fighter | National Geographic Channel

Counting the days now.. 

Mike sent us the trailer with the first few minutes of the show, mind blowing!!!

Gary


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## Messy1 (Jun 17, 2009)

I imagine some of the people who see this thing going down the road on the back of a truck might think it is a UFO or something!


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## Gibbage (Jun 24, 2009)

Looking at the photo's, the model they tested with is all wood. The V3's center section was steel tube with aluminum skin, with wings wood. Also, I cant see if they put any turbine blades into the engine intakes. These two discrepancy's would greatly increase its radar signature.


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## thehortenman (Jun 25, 2009)

hope you enjoy the show.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 25, 2009)

Thanks for the update Tim, can't wait to see the show!


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## Soren (Jun 25, 2009)

Thank you very much thehortenman!

I'm curious did you guys do any aerodynamic tests of the a/c ? Or did any of the guys from Northrop ever do a mathematical examination of a/c's properties ?

Many thanks!


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 26, 2009)

A teaser!!!

AOPA Online: Hitler’s stealth fighter show to air


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## Butters (Jun 26, 2009)

Thanks so much, Tim. I suspect that you'll be getting a lot of questions once we've seen the show...

Can't wait to see it in HD on my new Panasonic 42" Plasma! 

Sorry, but I just HAD to brag about it...

JL


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## Soren (Jun 27, 2009)

Nice Butters, was thinking about buying myself a new TV as-well actually, a Samsung 42" LED tv preferably


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 28, 2009)

Just a reminder, IT"S ON TONIGHT!!!!!!!!!!


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## RabidAlien (Jun 28, 2009)

DVR'd, AND i'll be watching it! Gotta love bein able to fast-forward past commercials!


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 28, 2009)

thehortenman said:


> To All,
> I just saw a final premere today of the show and wow! Mike Jorgenson is a master. It is so interesting... Tell everybody not to miss this especially if they build/like models, aircraft, WW2 ect. Also for the comment on the plane structure. We simulated ALL aspects of the Horten 229 and didnt leave anything out. Alot of care was taken to be accurate in building a correct representation of the aircraft. And if there is any questions on how it was done or why it was done, I will be here to explain that in full detail. After all, I and my crew built it. With all I have learned about the Horten brothers, they were allowed to make their dreams a reality. I am convinced that if built today with modern composite skins and structure also modern engines, this plane could be used today. And with some changes to inlets, exausts and ram treatments... Its a killer!
> 
> Tim Knott



WOW Tim, I have to admit I learnd a lot about this plane and it addressed a number of concerns I had inregards to stealth. IMHO it was very well done and to find out the agility was tested before was impressive. What will become of the mock up? Even better, any chance to post pictures of the real one stashed in DC?????

DAM fine job!!!!


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## RabidAlien (Jun 28, 2009)

Frikkin AWESOME show! I was sitting there with goosebumps the whole time, wishing I had the skills to build something like that....and then nearly broke into a cold sweat (its too hot for cold sweats here) when they started talking about its capabilities....and its planned big-brother...


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## jmcnamar (Jun 28, 2009)

I missed the show unfortunately; would it have been stealth?


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## RabidAlien (Jun 28, 2009)

It had a 20% reduction in radar reflection, which, combined with the jet engines, would have given the British about 8 minutes to react to its presence....and given an average 12-15 minute response time to get Spits on target....yeah, for its day, it would have wreaked havoc at will. Sobering to realize how tight a race the war really was.

BTW...welcome aboard! And depending on your location, you can probably find it on NatGeo's website, or on Hulu.


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## jmcnamar (Jun 28, 2009)

jmcnamar said:


> I missed the show unfortunately; would it have been stealth?



I am in Atlanta and I am happy to be a member.


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## Soren (Jun 28, 2009)

Someone please record it and send it to me. It doesn't air in Denmark


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 28, 2009)

I'll see if I can record the next time.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Jun 28, 2009)

vikingBerserker said:


> WOW Tim, I have to admit I learnd a lot about this plane and it addressed a number of concerns I had inregards to stealth. IMHO it was very well done and to find out the agility was tested before was impressive. What will become of the mock up? Even better, any chance to post pictures of the real one stashed in DC?????
> 
> DAM fine job!!!!


I was browing the net the other day and came across these pictures of the plane.
The posts are a couple of years old.

Horten Ho 229 V3 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!






Horten Ho 229 V3 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!






Wheels


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## Soren (Jun 29, 2009)

Here are some pictures of it fully assembled:


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 29, 2009)

I saw the show and enjoyed it very much. I know the radar range they tested it at, it was close to one of my former home airports, Fox Field. I just had a few comments and Tim; hopefully you'll check in and give some input.

I know the goal was to build a wooden model with similar characteristics to the original and check its RCS. You mentioned that you found carbon between the wood laminates. Was this accounted for when the tests were done?

I know commercial plywood was used but wondered how the original wood laminate with the original wood glues would have done, or even if they made a difference. I see you guys made use of the "good ole Elmer’s."

The show mentioned a 20% RCS reduction when compared to other aircraft of the day. How does the model's RCS compare with say the F-117A or even the B-2?

The show talked about the bomber program and how Goering talked about German nuclear capability. I think that might have been a bit farfetched as history has told us that by March of 1945 Germany's atomic research program was all but wiped out as a result of a bombing raid on one of its major facilities. Additionally the supply of heavy water was also disrupted several times. Although I take a lot of the information from Wikipedia with a grain of salt, this passage does give some good references.

_The joint American, British, and Canadian Manhattan Project developed the uranium and plutonium atomic bombs, which helped bring an end to hostilities with Japan during World War II. Its success is attributable to meeting all four of the following conditions:[98]

A strong initial drive, by a small group of scientists, to launch the project. 
Unconditional government support from a certain point in time. 
Essentially unlimited manpower and industrial resources. 
A concentration of brilliant scientists devoted to the project. 
Even with all four of these conditions in place the Manhattan Project succeeded only after the war in Europe had been brought to a conclusion. In Germany however only the first condition was met, and then only in a weaker sense than for the Manhattan Project. Added to this mutual distrust between the German government and the scientists existed.

For the Manhattan Project, the second condition was met on 9 October 1941 or shortly thereafter. Significant here is that by the end of 1941 it was already apparent that the German nuclear energy project would not make a decisive contribution to ending the German war effort in the near term, and control of the project was relinquished by the Heereswaffenamt (HWA, Army Ordnance Office) to the Reichsforschungsrat (RFR, Reich Research Council) in July 1942, essentially making it only a research project with objectives far short of making a weapon.

Concerning condition three, the needs in materiel and manpower for a large-scale project necessary for the separation of isotopes for a uranium-based bomb and heavy water production for reactors for a plutonium-based bomb may have been possible in the early years of the war, but in the latter years it would have been impossible to mount such an effort. Also, these large-scale facilities would have been recognized and included as targets for the Allied bombing missions, which grew in intensity as the war continued.

As to condition four, the high priority allocated to the Manhattan Project allowed for the recruitment and concentration of capable scientists on the project; in Germany, the priority and a focused project for such recruitment and concentration of personnel did not exist past mid-1942.

Thus, weakly meeting only the first of these four conditions, Germany fell far short of what was required to make an atomic bomb.[99] [100] [101] [102]

^ Landsman, 2002, 303 and 319-319. 
^ Jeremy Bernstein Hitler’s Uranium Club: The Secret Recording’s at Farm Hall (Copernicus, 2001) 122-123. 
^ M. Bundy Danger and survival: Choices about the bomb in the first fifty years (Random House, 1988 ), as cited in Landsman, 2002, 318n83. 
^ Werner Heisenberg Research in Germany on the Technical Applications of Atomic Energy, Nature Volume 160, Number 4059, 211-215 (August 16, 1947). See also the annotated English translation: Document 115. Werner Heisenberg: Research in Germany on the Technical Application of Atomic Energy [August 16, 1947] in Hentschel, Klaus (editor) and Ann M. Hentschel (editorial assistant and translator) Physics and National Socialism: An Anthology of Primary Sources (Birkhäuser, 1996 ) 361-379. Especially see Hentschel and Hentschel, 1996, 378 and 378n76. _

Again, just some questions and critique of a very enjoyable show.

Now when are we building a flying example?!?!?!?


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## RabidAlien (Jun 29, 2009)

I always thought Goering had more hot air than the average balloon-fest. He liked to promise things that were not remotely possible. I'm guessing he was hoping someone would lean on the physicists to get a working nuke out as soon as possible "because we have a plane ready to take it to Washington DC". Having a couple of those big suckers show up and drop some conventional armaments on New York would have been a staggering blow to US morale, though, and would have succeeded in the diversion of critical war materials from the European front back to defending the US mainland. That woudl've made a negotiated peace that much closer to reality for them, or at the worst, turned the war into a race to see who got the nukes out first.

This is how my braincell plays out the hypothetical situation, anyway.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 29, 2009)

RabidAlien said:


> I always thought Goering had more hot air than the average balloon-fest. He liked to promise things that were not remotely possible. I'm guessing he was hoping someone would lean on the physicists to get a working nuke out as soon as possible "because we have a plane ready to take it to Washington DC". Having a couple of those big suckers show up and drop some conventional armaments on New York would have been a staggering blow to US morale, though, and would have succeeded in the diversion of critical war materials from the European front back to defending the US mainland. That woudl've made a negotiated peace that much closer to reality for them, or at the worst, turned the war into a race to see who got the nukes out first.
> 
> This is how my braincell plays out the hypothetical situation, anyway.



Agree....

I think a major reason why the allies won WW2 was the inability of the Axis powers to fully disrupt the allies’ ability to produce war materials and supply them to our forces. Had at least one strike by a Horten bomber been successful I think the face of the war might have changed drastically and maybe bought Germany one more year.


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## RabidAlien (Jun 29, 2009)

Yep....bought a year or more, and eased a bit of the strain on their western front (and possibly the Italian front as well). If Hitler had been able to get the Japanese to launch an offensive of some sort, to further distract the Allies, it might have given him time to complete his nukes. Added to that the considerable relief on the Eastern Front that the -229 would have brought (how badly would morale have eroded had Moscow and Stalin been obliterated with no prior warning?), and a very large portion of Europe could very well be speaking German today.


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## Messy1 (Jun 29, 2009)

I caught the program last night as well. It was very interesting. I am wondering how stable the original was, and does anyone know of any projected or estimated performance specs for the 229? It is a damn good thing this plane was not given the top priority, or the bomber version. Could really have been trouble for the Allies.


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 29, 2009)

Next showing: Sunday 5th July 2:00pm EDT. Apparently the replica will join the San Diego Air Space Museum's permanent collection.

The one thing that occured to me today, the way they duplicated the fuel tank, since it was not a true tank (ie no sides and back" would that not have affected the radar signature at least on the sides and possibly the front?


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## GrauGeist (Jun 29, 2009)

Messy1 said:


> I caught the program last night as well. It was very interesting. I am wondering how stable the original was, and does anyone know of any projected or estimated performance specs for the 229? It is a damn good thing this plane was not given the top priority, or the bomber version. Could really have been trouble for the Allies.



It was given top priority by Goering, but way to late in the game for it to do any good.

Data from "The Great Book of Fighters" based on the Horton's estimates:


> General characteristics:
> Crew: 1
> Length: 7.47 m (24 ft 6 in)
> Wingspan: 16.76 m (55 ft 0 in)
> ...


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## Soren (Jun 30, 2009)

vikingBerserker said:


> I'll see if I can record the next time.



Thanks viking, that would be great.


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## Soren (Jun 30, 2009)

FLYBOYJ,

There has been some speculations regarding how far along the Germans were with nuclear research. They were the ones furthest ahead when it came to a nuclear reactor, but they didn't build a bomb. One thing is clear though, they weren't given much if any funding. According to all I've read Hitler thought the war would be over in 1941 and so he dismissed the nuclear bomb project before it ever even began. 

Anyway there was a long discussion which I followed on the Axis History forum about it, but this was more about wether the Germans really had some sort of nuclear bomb by wars end. I don't believe they did, but the discussion was interesting anyway. There was also an interesting documentary posted there (I have no clue how accurate all of this is, but I'd take it with a grain of salt): 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3KmIgAkx8E_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TmIlFH105I_

Might be that the Germans were experimenting with a conventional bomb packed with radioactive pollutants, explaining why some people got sick. Conventional bombs can be pretty big powerful as-well. I don't believe they tested an actual nuclear bomb.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 30, 2009)

Soren said:


> I followed on the Axis History forum about it, but this was more about wether the Germans really had some sort of nuclear bomb by wars end. I don't believe they did.


Agree - again it sounds like a little "sensationalism" on the part of the producers of the show IMO.


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## RabidAlien (Jun 30, 2009)

vikingBerserker said:


> Next showing: Sunday 5th July 2:00pm EDT. Apparently the replica will join the San Diego Air Space Museum's permanent collection.
> 
> The one thing that occured to me today, the way they duplicated the fuel tank, since it was not a true tank (ie no sides and back" would that not have affected the radar signature at least on the sides and possibly the front?



They rotated the plane when it was up on its pillar, and they painted the areas where they were certain to get a signature back. IE, the engines, fuel tanks, cockpit, etc. So short of having an actual working original to play with (wouldn't THAT have been nice!), I think they covered all their bases pretty well. Still, from the POV of a stationary Chain-Home station, the front view would have been the one to be concerned about.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Jun 30, 2009)

Soren said:


> Here are some pictures of it fully assembled:



Thanks Soren  
I missed the pics you posted the other day.


Wheels


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## Parmigiano (Jun 30, 2009)

... any chance to have sooner or later this work on dvd and order it on Amazon?

I doubt it will ever be aired in Italy...


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## Amsel (Jun 30, 2009)

Nazi Stealth Jet Could Have Won War for Hitler - Science News | Science Technology | Technology News - FOXNews.com


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 30, 2009)

"This was the most advanced technology that the Germans had at the end of the war, and Northrop solved the question of how stealthy it was and its performance against Allied radar at the time," documentary filmmaker Mike Jorgenson told the Long Beach, Calif., Press-Telegram. "It's significantly better than anything flying operationally probably until the 1960s."

I disagree - even with its stellar performance, aircraft like the MiG-15, F-86 and Hawker Hunter would have had their way with it.


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## GrauGeist (Jun 30, 2009)

I wonder if Jorgenson was making that comment in reference to the Ho229's "stealth" properties?

Although, with the way the radar technology was progressing, I can't see how it would have still had any advantage by the time the 60's rolled around.


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## Soren (Jul 1, 2009)

He was talking about the stealth no doubt.


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## thehortenman (Jul 1, 2009)

Hope you all enjoy the show.


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## thehortenman (Jul 1, 2009)

Hope you all enjoy the show.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 1, 2009)

thehortenman said:


> Mike was talking about the design. If you take the design and put updated engines and composites tech... Its a killer.
> 
> TK


You'd also have to include weapons, avionics and environmental systems. The basic design offered performance slightly less than 2nd generation fighters


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## thehortenman (Jul 1, 2009)

Hope you all enjoy the show.


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## thehortenman (Jul 1, 2009)

enjoy.


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## Amsel (Jul 2, 2009)

thehortenman said:


> Yes, The front view was the major concern. We took alot of care to make the replica accurate. Even down to the fan blades... The Horten bros figured out the stability issue. It was to put the cg more forward and the engine exausts up on the aft deck. It had a stabalizing effect. Jack Northrop haddent figured that out until the enterance of the B2. Also the exaust placement made a big difference in radar detection. Compare the aft deck/b2.... Any more questions? Id be glad to try to answer them.
> 
> Tim Knott



Great work, man! You said you are working on the "Amerika Bomber" next?


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## pete (Jul 3, 2009)

Hello.After watching the show I searched and came across this site.Here's a short(55 pages) e-book on the Ho 229.
More a picture book with text than anything.

RapidShare: Easy Filehosting

password is megamag

I hope you enjoy it because I enjoyed reading this forum.


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## Soren (Jul 3, 2009)

Hmm... why did hortenmann delete/edit all his posts ?


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## GrauGeist (Jul 3, 2009)

Soren said:


> Hmm... why did hortenmann delete/edit all his posts ?


I was wondering the same thing...


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## Amsel (Jul 3, 2009)

gag order?


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 3, 2009)

bum bummmm BUM!


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## wheelsup_cavu (Jul 3, 2009)

That's a shame.
At least a few were quoted by other members.


Wheels


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## RabidAlien (Jul 4, 2009)

Maybe Hitler's flying saucer snatched him (and all of his posts) up?


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## Soren (Jul 4, 2009)

Hopefully he didn't share more information than he was allowed to


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## Capt. Vick (Jul 16, 2009)

While I very much enjoyed the program and wish I had this mock-up in my yard (I mean really, did you see them make the cockpit out of plastic tubing and the instrument panel? Awesome stuff!) I took exception to I believe it was the author David Myra’s claim that the Ho 9/Go 229 was test flown an “unknown” number of times and that it was actually tested head to head against the Me 262 in a dogfight and bested it. Now granted he says he spoke to the Horten brothers and I’m not disputing that, but it all adds up in my eyes to creeping Luftwaffe revisionist history. Claims for their aircraft or personnel that slowly grow over time. Like paper-planes that now are claimed to have achieved the mock-up stage and if the war had lasted just a tiny bit more would have been available in the hundred to turn back the allies. I have always accepted the somewhat less grandiose claim that the Ho 9 V2 was flown once, against the express wishes of the brothers, simply by the mistake of it having achieved flying speed while doing high speed taxi testing and that it crashed on that flight after hitting a railroad embankment on approach to landing with one engine out. What is the truth? The safe bet is the less startling. Someone is lying or just plain wrong, though I’m certainly not the last word on this…


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## GrauGeist (Jul 16, 2009)

The Ho IX V1 was tested by the Hortens, without power. The V1 crash landed, not sure if they ever repaired it or not, but the project at that time was handed over to Gotha.

The Ho IX V2 was tested and flown by the Gotha team...The V2 was destroyed when one of the Jumo 004 engines caught on fire during a flight, causing it to crash land.

The Ho229 everyone is familiar with, is the Ho IX V3...which never flew.

I have never heard or read about any competition between the Ho229 and a Me262, not saying that it didn't happen, but if it did, I would think that it would have been written down somewhere.

The only notable competition (demonstration) between a prototype and another aircraft, was in 1941 where the He280 shamed a Fw190.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Jul 16, 2009)

Horten flying wing test.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjXr5w3M4mc_


Wheels


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## Henk (Jul 17, 2009)

Now I would love to have that model after they are done with it.


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## Henk (Jul 17, 2009)

GrauGeist said:


> The Ho IX V1 was tested by the Hortens, without power. The V1 crash landed, not sure if they ever repaired it or not, but the project at that time was handed over to Gotha.
> 
> The Ho IX V2 was tested and flown by the Gotha team...The V2 was destroyed when one of the Jumo 004 engines caught on fire during a flight, causing it to crash land.
> 
> ...



The Ho-229 V2 was flown by the Horten brothers team and had nothing to do with Gotha. Gotha build the Ho-229 V3 and the other models after it that was seized after the war by the US Army. The Horten Brothers build the Ho-229 V2 and not Gotha. Due to the fact that the Horten brothers could not do the production them selfs of the planes they contracted Gotha to help them build the aircraft and that is why Gotha was involved, but that was after the crash of the V2 prototype. Gotha never had anything to do with the building of the V1 or V2 prototypes. Gotha was involved in the testing of the V2 aircraft when the 2 brothers were working on the Ho-18 America bomber.

Well they did get their info from the notes of the Horten brothers so I do think that their info is correct, but their may be mistakes.


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## A4K (Jul 17, 2009)

I would happily be proven wrong, but I don't think there was any intentional stealth proprties in the design at all, and that the flm makers are just using the Stealth theme as a selling angle. 

As much as I love the Ho IX V3, I agree with Joe that she would have been outclassed by the 50's already too, especially against the likes of the MiG-15, etc


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## Soren (Jul 17, 2009)

A4K,

That depends on wether th Go-229 stays powered by Jumo 004's or not, and if it did fly up till the 50's then I'd bet it would equipped with more powerful engines, and so would've likely been very competitive if not better than th othere jets of the 50's.

As for the stealth, it wsa not intentional from the beginning, but as the Brothers by accident discovered the low radar signature of the a/c they introduced radar absorbant paint which was to be put on the production a/c and was also used on the V3.


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## A4K (Jul 18, 2009)

G'day mate! 

Just my opinion, but even if they replaced the Jumo OO4s with more reliable and powerful engines, you're still looking at the weight and fuel requirements of two engines as opposed to the single engines of her competitors, not to mention the running costs...
I have a suspicion a MiG -15 could have out-turned her too, in the way a Bf109, though not as fast or graceful looking, could out-turn a Spitfire. Something about the slight unstableness of the design that added that touch of extra agility.
Taking both the above into consideration though, she might have been an effective ground attack (Schlacht) aircraft, but IMO she would have been outclassed as a fighter.

Haven't been able to be on here for a while, but was it PROVEN or just speculated that the Horten's came up with a 'radar absorbent' paint once they 'stumbled onto' it's low radar signature?? Sounds a little fishy to me...


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## RabidAlien (Jul 18, 2009)

I'd imagine that as technical breakthroughs came, that the 229 would be upgraded all over, not just the engines. I think she'd be able to hold her own for quite awhile.


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## A4K (Jul 18, 2009)

You could be right RA...would like to think she could perform as well as she looks..!

Have a good week guys, I'm going to be on leave till Friday, so see yas then!


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 18, 2009)

Have fun A4K!


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## Soren (Jul 19, 2009)

A4K said:


> G'day mate!
> 
> Just my opinion, but even if they replaced the Jumo OO4s with more reliable and powerful engines, you're still looking at the weight and fuel requirements of two engines as opposed to the single engines of her competitors, not to mention the running costs...
> I have a suspicion a MiG -15 could have out-turned her too, in the way a Bf109, though not as fast or graceful looking, could out-turn a Spitfire. Something about the slight unstableness of the design that added that touch of extra agility.
> Taking both the above into consideration though, she might have been an effective ground attack (Schlacht) aircraft, but IMO she would have been outclassed as a fighter.



Hehe, the MIG-15 would certainly not outturn the Ho/Go-229. Turn performance is one thing that the Go-229 would for sure excell at, and it is highly likely that it could even outturn a A6M Zero. It's in essence just one big thick wing, which is gonna be able to produce A LOT of lift.

As for the Bf-109 vs Spitfire example. Well both were rather stable designs, and only certain version Bf-109's would outturn certain version Spitfires and vice versa. The advantage slipped back and forth through the 5 years of the war.



> Haven't been able to be on here for a while, but was it PROVEN or just speculated that the Horten's came up with a 'radar absorbent' paint once they 'stumbled onto' it's low radar signature?? Sounds a little fishy to me...



Horten said so himself that they developed a special type of charcoal paint which was meant to absorb radar waves. It was tested and found to work by the Germans, and then tested again by the Northrop team and once more found to work. 

As to how much the special paint would've reduced the radar signature alone, well IMO probably not a whole lot, maybe 10%..


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 19, 2009)

Soren said:


> Hehe, the MIG-15 would certainly not outturn the Ho/Go-229.


Based on ????

The Go 229 had half the wing loading of the MiG-15 but the MiG-15 had twice the thrust to weight ratio, it was also lighter. Also consider performance at various altitudes.


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## Soren (Jul 20, 2009)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Based on ????
> 
> The Go 229 had half the wing loading of the MiG-15 but the MiG-15 had twice the thrust to weight ratio, it was also lighter. Also consider performance at various altitudes.



That the Go-229 possesses half the wing loading pretty much makes sure that it will turn tighter than the MIG-15. Also remember how much thicker the Go-229's wing is, it's gonna produce a whole lot more lift pr. area than the thin wing of the MIG-15. In short the MIG-15 will certainly not outturn the Go-229, atleast not at its best combat altitudes.

T/W ratio is ofcourse also important, esp. when it comes to sustained maneuvers, so in climbing maneuvers the MIG-15 would be able to hold its own.

The MIG-15 didn't quite have twice the T/W ratio of the Go-229 as you say however.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 20, 2009)

Soren said:


> That the Go-229 possesses half the wing loading pretty much makes sure that it will turn tighter than the MIG-15. Also remember how much thicker the Go-229's wing is, it's gonna produce a whole lot more lift pr. area than the thin wing of the MIG-15. In short the MIG-15 will certainly not outturn the Go-229, atleast not at its best combat altitudes.


I think some calcualted data will have to be attained to prove that point


Soren said:


> T/W ratio is ofcourse also important, esp. when it comes to sustained maneuvers, so in climbing maneuvers the MIG-15 would be able to hold its own.
> 
> The MIG-15 didn't quite have twice the T/W ratio of the Go-229 as you say however.




Thrust/weight: 0.54 - MiG-15

Thrust/weight: 0.26 - Go 229

The MiG-15 also had almost double the climb rate.


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## Soren (Jul 20, 2009)

FLYBOYJ said:


> I think some calcualted data will have to be attained to prove that point



If we wanna know the max sustained turn rate of both then yes. But the Go-229 does have a far higher initial turn rate by virtue of its far higher lift to weight ratio. The higher the L/W ratio the less thrust is also needed to power through any turn. 



> Thrust/weight: 0.54 - MiG-15
> 
> Thrust/weight: 0.26 - Go 229
> 
> The MiG-15 also had almost double the climb rate.



You're right about the T/W ratio, I used a higher weight for the MIG-15, 5700 kg, but it seems the actual weight was infact around 4,900 kg.


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