# Best Attack Chopper



## ScOoTeR1992 (Jan 16, 2008)

hello all i was wondering what you guys thought would be the worlds best attack helicopter mine would certainly be the Boeing/Sikorsky RAH-66 Comanche so tell me your thoughts cya


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## comiso90 (Jan 16, 2008)

Hello Scooter,

It's helpful if you mention why you like the Comanche and list some alternatives, maybe photos. It helps get the conversation going...


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 16, 2008)

The Comanche was cancelled - never saw combat so a lot of "would of, should of."


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## ScOoTeR1992 (Jan 16, 2008)

ok guys and i never knew that the Comanche was canceled i guess it went the way of the Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne what was it to advanced or something know that i have just learnt that i guess it would be the Kamov KA-50 i chose it because I'm a big fan of the contra rotating main blades and over all it's a really potent attack chopper


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## magnocain (Jan 16, 2008)

it does look futuristic


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## SoD Stitch (Jan 17, 2008)

ScOoTeR1992 said:


> ok guys and i never knew that the Comanche was canceled i guess it went the way of the Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne what was it to advanced or something know that i have just learnt that i guess it would be the Kamov KA-50 i chose it because I'm a big fan of the contra rotating main blades and over all it's a really potent attack chopper



It basically lost lost due to budgetary considerations. It was actually cancelled about 5 years ago; I have no idea what happened to the prototypes (Edwards? NA&SM?). The Army decided it would rather spend the money on the (non-stealthy) AH-64D Longbow, especially since there wasn't any reason to have a stealthy helicopter anymore. Too bad; looks like it would've been a pretty good attack helicopter.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2008)

Allright a Helo thread! One of my favorites!

Okay well honestly the best attack helicopter in service today in respectable numbers is the AH-64D Longbow.

Now being a Blackhawk guy I dont like the Apache and it has its faults. Once in the air however it is the premier attack helicopter in the world.

Now having said that I would take a MH-60L DAP (Direct Action Penetrator) version of the Blackhawk. It is armed with 2 M134D Mini Guns, 30mm chain gun and 2.75" rockets. It can also be armed with 16 Hellfire Missiles.

The MH_60L DAP is in service with the US Army 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment "Night Stalkers".


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## eddie_brunette (Jan 17, 2008)

General characteristics
Crew: 2 (pilot weapon systems officer)
Length: 18,73 m (main rotor to tail rotor); 16.39 m fuselage ()
Rotor diameter: 15.58 m ()
Height: 5.19 m ()
Empty weight: 5,190 kg ()
Max takeoff weight: 8,750 kg (19,290 lb)
Internal fuel capacity: 1,469 kg)
Powerplant: 2× Turbomeca Makila 1K2 turboshafts, 1,716 kW (sea-level ISA) () each
Performance
Maximum speed: 309 km/h (193 mph)
Range: 700 km combat; 1,130 km ferry (440 mi / 700 mi)
Service ceiling 6,000 m (20,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 13.3 m/s (2,105 ft/min)
Disc loading: lb/ft² (kg/m²)
Power/mass: hp/lb (kW/kg)
Armament
1 x F2 20 mm cannon, 700 rounds
8 or 16 x Mokopa ZT-6 long-range anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM),
4 x MBDA Mistral air-to-air missiles,
36 or 72 x 70 mm folding fin aerial rockets (FFAR)


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## plan_D (Jan 17, 2008)

I would have to say that the AH-64D is the greatest attack helicopter in the world today. The RAH-66 "Commanche" was 'cancelled' but I keep hearing rumours that it's not, it's just on hold.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2008)

plan_D said:


> I would have to say that the AH-64D is the greatest attack helicopter in the world today.



Agreed. It has the same capabilities or more than the other attack aircraft out there and it is cheaper to build than most of them.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2008)

By the way here is a thread that I started a long time ago with pics of Helicopters from all over the world that I have taken. I have a lot more and I will post some eventually.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/personal-gallery/adlers-chopper-pics-4116.html


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## Lucky13 (Jan 17, 2008)

I'd have to with the AH-64D Apache Longbow









Pilot...





Co-pilot/gunner...


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## plan_D (Jan 17, 2008)

That's a AH-64A in the last picture...


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## twoeagles (Jan 17, 2008)

Longbow Apache with M-TADS / Arrowhead upgrades. Hands down the
finest and most capable attack helo ever built.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2008)

plan_D said:


> That's a AH-64A in the last picture...



Yes that is a AH-64A, but did you know that not all AH-64D Longbows have the large radom on the top.

They fly in pairs and only one has the radom attached to the rotor mast.


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## plan_D (Jan 17, 2008)

No, I did not know that. Learn something new..


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## Lucky13 (Jan 17, 2008)

Just though that it looked cool with the weapons infront.... I agree PD, learn something new everyday here...good stuff!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2008)

plan_D said:


> No, I did not know that. Learn something new..



You can tell the difference though because the AH-64D without the Radom still does not have that pointy thing on the top.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 17, 2008)

Longbow Apache.... There really isnt an argument here.... Nothin really comes in a close second...


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## Henk (Jan 19, 2008)

Rooivalk.

No explanation needed.


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## Wildcat (Jan 20, 2008)

Well we use the Tigre down here in Oz, I don't know how well it compares to other attack choppers (helo's ain't my thing), but was chosen over the Apache, Supercobra, Rooivoik and blackhawk gunship varient (?). Here is some pics I took at an airshow last year.


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## Henk (Jan 20, 2008)

It looks very small.


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## Marcel (Jan 20, 2008)

Wildcat said:


> Well we use the Tigre down here in Oz, I don't know how well it compares to other attack choppers (helo's ain't my thing), but was chosen over the Apache, Supercobra, Rooivoik and blackhawk gunship varient (?). Here is some pics I took at an airshow last year.



The NL turned it down in favour of the longbow, don't recall the reasoning behind it, tho. Last week, to Apaches were flying circles over our greenhouse, an impreesive sight and sound, luckily there were no powerlines in the vicinity


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 20, 2008)

Henk said:


> Rooivalk.
> 
> No explanation needed.



No an explanation would be nice.



Wildcat said:


> Well we use the Tigre down here in Oz, I don't know how well it compares to other attack choppers (helo's ain't my thing), but was chosen over the Apache, Supercobra, Rooivoik and blackhawk gunship varient (?). Here is some pics I took at an airshow last year.



I would take an Apache over the Tiger any day. Mostly because of the design. The Tiger has a very big profile. You want a small profile for an attack helicopter.


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## Soren (Jan 20, 2008)

The Tiger is faster though.. the Apache is pretty slow, I remember that when flying with Chinooks the Apache pilots would often call in and request that they slow down cause they couldn't keep up. Sure puts a smile on a Chinook pilot's face


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## Matt308 (Jan 20, 2008)

Yeah but Chinooks are faster than virtually all other helicopters, so that's not saying much.


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## Soren (Jan 20, 2008)

The Chinook is pretty fast when lightly loaded, some 300 + km/h. 

Just found out that the Tiger Apache re just as fast as each other btw. I'd take the Apache as-well then..


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## Henk (Jan 20, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> No an explanation would be nice.



The Rooivalk has been tested in the very harsh African weather and terrain conditions to make it a really great and effective combat helicopter and also does not need a lot of people and equipment to be carried around to keep her flying and can be used for reconnaissance, heliborne escort, close air support, deep penetration and anti-armour.

It can carry a wide range of weapons that makes it a weapon that can make your day a bad day. The Rooivalk has great handling as well to get her out of those difficult situations.

The stats is also great.

General:

* Crew: 2 (pilot weapon systems officer)
* Length: 18,73 m (main rotor to tail rotor); 16.39 m fuselage ()
* Rotor diameter: 15.58 m ()
* Height: 5.19 m ()
* Empty weight: 5,190 kg ()
* Max takeoff weight: 8,750 kg (19,290 lb)

* Internal fuel capacity: 1,469 kg)

* Powerplant: 2× Turbomeca Makila 1K2 turboshafts, 1,716 kW (sea-level ISA) () each

Performance:

* Maximum speed: 309 km/h (193 mph)
* Range: 700 km combat; 1,130 km ferry (440 mi / 700 mi)
* Service ceiling 6,000 m (20,000 ft)
* Rate of climb: 13.3 m/s (2,105 ft/min)
* Disc loading: lb/ft² (kg/m²)
* Power/mass: hp/lb (kW/kg)

Armament:

* 1 x F2 20 mm cannon, 700 rounds
* 8 or 16 x Mokopa ZT-6 long-range anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM),
* 4 x MBDA Mistral air-to-air missiles,
* 36 or 72 x 70 mm folding fin aerial rockets (FFAR)

Yes it is bigger than the Apache, but she can make the enemy wish they did not run into her.

The only thing that kept her behind was her price tag, but you do get what you pay for.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 20, 2008)

Soren said:


> The Tiger is faster though.. the Apache is pretty slow, I remember that when flying with Chinooks the Apache pilots would often call in and request that they slow down cause they couldn't keep up. Sure puts a smile on a Chinook pilot's face



Actually no Soren. The Apache is not the fastest helicopter but it is certainly not slow and is infact faster than the Tiger.

*The AH-64D Longbow has a max speed of 158 knots the Eurocopter Tiger has a max speed of 151 knots.*

*EDIT: JUST SAW YOUR OTHER POST SOREN WHERE YOU SAW THAT THE SPEEDS WERE ABOUT THE SAME.*

The only advantage the Tiger has is range.

Speed is not the main advantage that the Apache has over a Tiger anyhow. Again it comes down to profile and showing yourself.

The Longbow only has to show its mast. It finds its targets while it is hidden, rises fires off its missiles and forgets. The Tiger (except for newer varient called the UH Tiger that has been built for the German Bundeswehr) has to show itself since its to find its targets since its sights were mounted in the nose of the aircraft.

The Apache still holds the advantage.



Henk said:


> The Rooivalk has been tested in the very harsh African weather and terrain conditions to make it a really great and effective combat helicopter and also does not need a lot of people and equipment to be carried around to keep her flying and can be used for reconnaissance, heliborne escort, close air support, deep penetration and anti-armour.
> 
> It can carry a wide range of weapons that makes it a weapon that can make your day a bad day. The Rooivalk has great handling as well to get her out of those difficult situations.



You just described a Apache Longbow which still has the advantage of having mast mounted radom so that it can find its targets concealed and then fire and forget.

The Rooivalk does not have that capability as of yet.

*Sorry guys! As a Rotory Wing guy I can talk for hours on Helos! *


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 20, 2008)

I remember this article a while ago - I think the Rooivalk is South Africa's "Arrow." At least they built a few....
What went wrong with the Rooivalk


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 20, 2008)

I have heard the same thing Joe. The Rooivalk is still to this day not fully mission capable.


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## Henk (Jan 21, 2008)

Yes, Adler it is very sad that the Rooivalk still has not been fully operational, because the ANC government kept it back and thus Denel could not make it what it really is.

The Rooivalk has mast mounted capability, but like I said it is being kept back by the Government. I saw the stuff Denel developed for the Rooivalk and it is amazing what they did with the Helmets of the pilots. I will find it ad give you the specs of them, I do not know it out of my head.

During the Apartheid era the Military advanced a lot and they build APC vechiles that is being used by the US in Iraq and Afghanistan, but since the ANC took over everything they cut so much out of the Military budget that it is hair raising.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 21, 2008)

Henk said:


> I saw the stuff Denel developed for the Rooivalk and it is amazing what they did with the Helmets of the pilots. I will find it ad give you the specs of them, I do not know it out of my head.



That technology is nothing new. The Helmet sights have been in use by the Apache since the 1980s.


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## Henk (Jan 21, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> That technology is nothing new. The Helmet sights have been in use by the Apache since the 1980s.



I know, but they did a lot of other stuff also, I am now searching my @ss off to find the info about it.


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## SoD Stitch (Jan 21, 2008)

Soren said:


> The Tiger is faster though.. the Apache is pretty slow, I remember that when flying with Chinooks the Apache pilots would often call in and request that they slow down cause they couldn't keep up. Sure puts a smile on a Chinook pilot's face



But speed doesn't matter all that much for a good attack helicopter; what matters more is the avionics and overall capabilities (armament, fuel, etc.). The Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne is (was?) the fastest attack helicopter in history, but all that speed didn't make up for the fact that it was cancelled by the Army in 1972.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 21, 2008)

SoD Stitch said:


> But speed doesn't matter all that much for a good attack helicopter; what matters more is the avionics and overall capabilities (armament, fuel, etc.). The Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne is (was?) the fastest attack helicopter in history, but all that speed didn't make up for the fact that it was cancelled by the Army in 1972.


The Cheyenne was cancelled because it was expensive and complex - Bell offered limited parts interchangeability between the Cobra and the Huey.

It probably could of competed with the Apache if Lockheed wanted to resurrect the project. By that time "CALAC" had another program called "Have Blue" that was the focus of their attention.

BTW one of my old Lockheed bosses was one the the Cheyenne test pilots...


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## SoD Stitch (Jan 21, 2008)

FLYBOYJ said:


> The Cheyenne was cancelled because it was expensive and complex - Bell offered limited parts interchangeability between the Cobra and the Huey.
> 
> It probably could of competed with the Apache if Lockheed wanted to resurrect the project. By that time "CALAC" had another program called "Have Blue" that was the focus of their attention.
> 
> BTW one of my old Lockheed bosses was one the the Cheyenne test pilots...



Sweet! Did he ever talk about the Cheyenne program?

I'm assuming when you say "Have Blue" you're talking about the Lockheed Skunk Works project for a low-observables fighter back in the early '80's.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 21, 2008)

SoD Stitch said:


> Sweet! Did he ever talk about the Cheyenne program?


Yes he did - he said it was the best combat helicopter of its day - the problem was the Army wanted a "shotgun." Lockheed gave them a howitzer.


SoD Stitch said:


> I'm assuming when you say "Have Blue" you're talking about the Lockheed Skunk Works project for a low-observables fighter back in the early '80's.


Yes - I've heard rumors that Lockheed was asked to compete under the same solicitation that brought about the Apache - they declined.


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## Henk (Jan 21, 2008)

The Cheyenne looked liked very advanced chopper. Would love to see one up close.


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## plan_D (Jan 21, 2008)

The AH-56 is reported to have a top speed of 220 knots, but is this true ? I was always under the impression that the modified Westland ZB500 G-Lynx still held the world record at 217.5 knots.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 21, 2008)

plan_D said:


> The AH-56 is reported to have a top speed of 220 knots, but is this true ? I was always under the impression that the modified Westland ZB500 G-Lynx still held the world record at 217.5 knots.


I was told the Cheyenne reached about 220 knots (almost 250 mph) It was not done under controlled conditions so no recognition of it's speed was recognized. Also The configuration of its tail rotor did not qualify it as a bonafide helicopter.


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## SoD Stitch (Jan 21, 2008)

FLYBOYJ said:


> I was told the Cheyenne reached about 220 knots (almost 250 mph) It was not done under controlled conditions so no recognition of it's speed was recognized. Also The configuration of its tail rotor did not qualify it as a bonafide helicopter.



This is correct; the Cheyenne not only had a conventional tail rotor to offset the torque from the main rotor, but a "pusher" rotor set at 90 degrees to the tail rotor to give it increased forward thrust. Technically, it wasn't a helicopter, but a compound helicopter, or "gyrodyne". Therefore, even if it had set a speed record, it would not have qualified for the "pure" helicopter class. Here's what it looked like:


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 25, 2008)

Since I am a rotor junkie as well I figured I would try and keep this going so I added a poll.


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## Henk (Jan 25, 2008)

Adler, the only thing that I would love to do is to have a ride on a helicopter. There is a place here in George that does it, but they are very expensive, over R500 for 10min. That is a 1/4 of my pay!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 26, 2008)

Henk said:


> Adler, the only thing that I would love to do is to have a ride on a helicopter. There is a place here in George that does it, but they are very expensive, over R500 for 10min. That is a 1/4 of my pay!



Ah the perks of doing it for a living.

I was paid to do it every day....


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## Henk (Jan 27, 2008)

You lucky son of a gun.


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## Lucky13 (Jan 27, 2008)

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvFeyslhWRo_


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxCVfpeuCOE_


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## Lucky13 (Jan 27, 2008)

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGF2caKDgEA_


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RITbQHLLhU_


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjwdFF4KA7w_


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## SoD Stitch (Jan 29, 2008)

There's a reason most of the "free" world is buying the AH-64 Apache, and it's very simple: it's the best attack helicopter in the world right now. I think Israel is a prime example of this; yes, they usually buy American, but there are no rules saying they have to. But they know (they are a very pragmatic people; they have to be when they have enemies on three sides of their country) that the best hardware in the world is (currently) made in the USA. It might be a little on the expensive side, but you get the satisfaction of knowing you're getting the best military hardware in the world.

On a further note, Boeing just recently delivered the first of 120 AH-64D Apache Longbows modernised under the extended Block II contract to the US Army at it's Mesa, Arizona facility on October 5, 2007.


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## F-14 (Jan 30, 2008)

i will also go with the Longbow Apache (Delta) there is no match for it it wins it hands down the Russian have the Mil-28N Night havock with a similar MMWM(Mil Meter Wave Mast ) on top it would have been a worthy compitater to the Longbow what say


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## Milos Sijacki (Jan 30, 2008)

I would have to go for Mi-24 Hind, because I'm a big fan of that heli( it looks cool). It is a combination of an attack and transport helicopter. This doesn't mean that I don't think that Apache or Blackhawk are bad, I like them too.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 30, 2008)

I dont think the Mi-28 would even come close to the AH-64D. 

Why?

From my experience working with Russian aviation in Kosovo, there is no standardized maintenance and there is no money to buy spare parts. The Hinds there barely flew. We were even put on a restriction from flying in there aircraft because of the shotty maintenance.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 30, 2008)

Milos Sijacki said:


> I would have to go for Mi-24 Hind, because I'm a big fan of that heli( it looks cool). It is a combination of an attack and transport helicopter. This doesn't mean that I don't think that Apache or Blackhawk are bad, I like them too.



That is what makes the Hind a bad attack helicopter. It is a great aircraft but it is too big for an attack aircraft.

The Apache is small and can make its way through rough terrain at low altitudes. When it finds its targets it can stay below the tree line or the hill tops and not be seen because all that is exposed is the mast on top. It pops up and fires its missiles and then drops below the hill top.

The Hind has to expose itself in order to aquire and engage targets. It is also a large target to shoot at with a very large front profile as well as a large side profile.


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## F-14 (Jan 30, 2008)

Agreed the Profile problem and size are the Hind's 2 major problems this was shown amply in the 1980's in the Afghan campaing the Mil-25 Hind A's dominated the skys that is un till the Arrival of the Stinger SAM's and the Afghans were killing the Hinds to fast


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## Elvis (Feb 17, 2008)

I voted for the Apache.
Its a proven design and the most modern thing we have right now (until the Comanche becomes operational).
Anyway, its about the most _menecing_ thing I've ever seen!

A close second would be the Cobra, if only for the fact that it never seems to die.
40+ years of service is a helluva record for ANYTHING!



Elvis



Milos Sijacki said:


> I would have to go for Mi-24 Hind, because I'm a big fan of that heli( it looks cool). It is a combination of an attack and transport helicopter. This doesn't mean that I don't think that Apache or Blackhawk are bad, I like them too.


Maybe so, but one raghead with a Stinger will take 'em down, every time.
Watched it quite often during the Afghani war with Russia in the late 70's.


Elvis


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 17, 2008)

Elvis said:


> (until the Comanche becomes operational).
> A
> 
> 
> ...



The Comanche will not become operational. It was cancelled several years ago.



Elvis said:


> Maybe so, but one raghead with a Stinger will take 'em down, every time.
> Watched it quite often during the Afghani war with Russia in the late 70's.
> 
> 
> Elvis



And one enemy with a SA-7, SA-14, SA-16 or SA-18 will take out an Apache real quick as well.

I have seen it first hand and rescued the crews after it happened.

*Oh and please dont use the word raghead either...*


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## Elvis (Feb 17, 2008)

Sorry, didn't mean to offend.

Elvis


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## Ramirezzz (Feb 18, 2008)

both AH-64 and Mi-28N are great helicopters and I believe their performance is pretty comparable from the pure technical point of view, but I'll go with AH-64 just because of it's combat record .
But I think that in the case of the classic Cold War scenario in Europe each one of them would be the same cannon fodder as its counterpart


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## kuzindwight (Mar 25, 2008)

The MTADS AH-64D has the best newest and best sight in the attack helicopter world.

It is not the fastest, but its combination of power, speed, firepower, durability, and loiter time make it the best attack platform in the world.

It is threatened by all MANPADS but so are all helicopters. There are new systems which help mitigate the risk but it will always be present. The other threat is its pilots over zealous personality. Because we can take so much punishment, sometimes we don't know when to take our toys and go home.

The death of the Comanche was sad but you won't see many tears in Army Aviation. Aviation kept most of the money marked for Comanche and are upgrading the AH-64D, building the UH-60M, building the CH-47F and upgrading the entire fleets aircraft survivability systems. Well almost everybody, apologies to my diminutive OH-58D friends.


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## broke91hatch (Mar 25, 2008)

plan_D said:


> I would have to say that the AH-64D is the greatest attack helicopter in the world today. The RAH-66 "Commanche" was 'cancelled' but I keep hearing rumours that it's not, it's just on hold.




I know someone who worked on that program. They said it was cancelled do to the cost.


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## SoD Stitch (Mar 25, 2008)

broke91hatch said:


> I know someone who worked on that program. They said it was cancelled do to the cost.



That, and the fact that it's main mission has changed; it was originally designed to be a stealthy scout helicopter, built to evade and defeat Soviet radar systems. With the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact, the requirement for a stealthy attack platform disappeared; now, our main adversaries tend to be "low-tech" terrorists and religious insurgents, so all that is needed is a "bomb truck", not a high-tech, stealthy helicopter.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 25, 2008)

kuzindwight said:


> The MTADS AH-64D has the best newest and best sight in the attack helicopter world.
> 
> It is not the fastest, but its combination of power, speed, firepower, durability, and loiter time make it the best attack platform in the world.
> 
> ...



Are you in the Apache community? I was a Blackhawk Crewchief for 6 years based out of Germany and did a tour to Iraq as well.


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