# No respect, no morals, no trust - welcome to modern Britain



## Colin1 (Nov 6, 2009)

A social comment, rather than political, this piece hit all the right buttons with me
I would be interested to hear parallel views of the social climate in your part of the world
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_Our political leaders are falling short as we sink under a tide of vulgarity and sleaze_

*By Jeff Randall*
The Daily Telegraph Friday 6 November 2009

Earlier this year, the BBC broadcast a two-part documentary called _The Death of Respect_. It went out late and would have been missed by many. For those who did not see it, there was compelling evidence this week that the social decomposition chronicled in John Ware's programme is very real, when film of a Sheffield student relieving himself on a war memorial was shown in the same news bulletins that covered the murder of five British soldiers in Helmand.

It's hard to think of a more offensive image than booze-fuelled urine flowing over poppies, on a day when courageous servicemen are being slaughtered in order, the Government claims, to keep the rest of us safe. Hard, but not impossible. The front-page story from my local newspaper, the _Brentwood Gazette_, came close: thieves stole the Royal British Legion's Poppy Appeal collection box from St Thomas's church in the town centre. In the week of Remembrance Sunday, low-lifers had plumbed new depths.

Do not tell me that these are isolated incidents. Anxiety over the collapse of respect in modern Britain is not, as some liberal sociologists would have us believe, the creation of news-hungry tabloids and suburban reactionaries. Examples of guttersnipery are all around: from unpleasant vulgarity (spitting and swearing) to the contempt with which a sleazy political class treats its electorate. We are, one fears, in danger of becoming inured to disrespect.

On the way to the train station each day, I trudge past a trail of sweet wrappers, sandwich boxes and drink cans, discarded by children walking to school. Every morning they litter the streets, seemingly unaware of the mess piling up, while eating breakfast on the hoof. I once challenged a twerp who was poking an empty crisp packet into a neighbour's hedge. He seemed shocked that anyone would care.

Litter is annoying but in the grand scheme of a society that has traded personal responsibility for blame transfer, it is a little more than a pointer to a deeper malaise: the corrosion of deference in our schools, the abandonment of manners on our streets and yes, the death of respect for civility and integrity. We are close to the point where ethical behaviour is regarded as an affliction to be pitied, a loser's burden.

In a piercing summary of what has gone wrong, Britain's Chief Rabbi, Lord Sachs, concludes: "Concepts like duty, obligation, responsibility and honour have come to seem antiquated and irrelevant. Emotions like guilt, shame, contrition and remorse have been deleted from our vocabulary, for are we not all entitled to self-esteem? The still, small voice of conscience is rarely heard these days. Conscience has been outsourced, delegated away."

Indeed it has. Individual wrongdoings are, increasingly, an issue not for those concerned but for the State, which dishes out rights in return for unquestioning obeisance. In place of self-restraint, we have installed an all-embracing culture of grievance. Culprits have learnt to claim victim status.

As the banking crisis and MP's expenses scandal revealed, there is barely a distinction between legality and morality. Freedom means pursuing that with which it is possible to get away. If everyone else is gaming the system, only a mug would choose to do otherwise. When caught, the perpetrators point shamelessly to a failure by regulators.

Soon after becoming PM, Tony Blair offered a fresh start for a modernised Britain. It was an attractive vision. He did not want, he said, his children brought up in a country where gangs of teenagers hung around street corners doing nothing but abusing passers-by. "I tell you: a decent society is not based on rights, it is based on duty - the duty to show respect."

No quibbles there, except that after 12 years of his New Labour project, the respect to which Mr Blair referred is in the gutter. Teachers who seek to reprimand offensive pupils are attacked by yobbish parents; train drivers who ask unruly gangs to get off are beaten up. A vulnerable mother kills herself and her daughter after years of brutal abuse from thugs. This, I'm afraid, is the reality of contemporary Britain, a sprawling no-respect zone.

According to a study by the Institute for Public Policy Research, Britain's teenagers are among the most badly behaved in Europe. It paints a picture of adolescents immersed in consumerism, who are drunk more often and involved in more fights than their Continental counterparts.

The IPPR's explanation for our dismal record is a collapse in family and community life. In Italy, 93% of 15-year olds eat regularly with their parents; in Britain, it is just 64%. We should not be surprised. The British Welfare State rewards unmarried mothers with a level of benefits most would be unable to earn in legal employment. They are incentivised to 'go solo'.

For Karen Matthews, who colluded in the kidnapping of her own daughter, Shannon, there was no right or wrong, just a perverse cost-benefit analysis. She worked out that having more children with variety of fathers meant a rising tide of cash payments and handouts in kind. In her miserable milieu, self-respect and honour seemed like unaffordable luxuries. The same conclusion must have been reached by a neighbour and close friend who was jailed yesterday for benefits fraud.

In establishing 40 'respect zones' to fight anti-social behaviour, Mr Blair's Government promised to provide 'parenting classes' and other 'family project'. This was, in part, a response to official figures showing that half of all anit-social behaviour orders (ASBOs) in England and Wales had been breached. What happened to that initiative? One senses little progress.

Respect, of course, is a two-way process. For a system based on mutual respect to function properly, those at the top must show the way. This, sadly, is where our political leaders fall short. It's all very well ministers cooking up respect agendas for the _hoi polloi _whose votes they need but how much respect is shown to those same people from on high?

When Labour forced through its disastrous policy of mass immigration, what respect did it show to the millions of indigenous working-class voters whose communites came under such serious strain as a result? Did anyone explain the true consequences rather than just the bogus benefits?

And when David Cameron gave us a cast-iron guarantee that we would be able to vote on the ratification of a European Constitution (for that is what the Lisbon Treaty is) did he consider how disrespectful it would be to renege? Apparently not, up his sleeve was the metaphorical small-print.

As bleak as it seems, Lord Sachs prognosis is unavoidable, "Parliamentary reform and financial re-regulation will treat the symptoms, not the cause. Without conscience, there can be no trust. Without a shared moral code there can be no free society. Either we recover the moral sense or we will find, too late, that in the name of liberty, we have lost our freedom."


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## ccheese (Nov 6, 2009)

Believe me, Colin, Britain does not hold title to this type is dis-respect. The good ole USA has the same goings-on and
it is pretty wide-spread. All our young people need is an excuse. It starts with a couple of people in a fist fight. Then
it esculates into a full blown riot. This gives them the excuse to break windows in shops and steal whatever they can
get their hands on. All this while the cameras roll, and they could care less. Our young people have no respect for
someone else's property, and it appears they have no respect for themselves, either.

Charles


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## BikerBabe (Nov 6, 2009)

The way I see it it isn't just lack of respect, but also a alarmingly tendency to raise one's kids without any kind of decent manners or personal limits.
And yes, we've got the same thing going on here in Denmark - and unfortunately, the littering is just the smallest part of it.
We've gotten the same kind of drive-by shootings going on in Copenhagen now, as we usually just thought was happening in the "big, bad" USA, riots, gang wars, and what have you.
And basically - the way I see it - it all starts when the kids grow up while going to school - the parents seem to think that it's okay to let the kids decide too much in the family in a misunderstood attempt to please the kid and raise him/her to "take responsibility for his/her choices".
The result is that you get kids who gets confused by the lack of limits, and _that's_ the root of the problem - seen with my eyes, mind you.
Of course the whole thing is a lot more complex than that, but generally speaking that's what I think.


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## Freebird (Nov 6, 2009)

I wonder, what happened to the people's PRIDE in the British nation?


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## jamierd (Nov 6, 2009)

there is no pride in britain anymore The very term United Kingdom is a joke ,this is a very divided kingdom indeed the politicians and public officials line their pockets and the people suffer.the teenagers drink more booze evry week than the adults .the police cant cope because there are not enough of them .there are no real communities left everybody looks after themselves to such an extent a recent case in edinburgh a pentioner had died in her house and nobody noticed for 5 years.I dont know what the answer is but i think we need to find it soon or it will be too far gone to fix


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## Emac44 (Nov 6, 2009)

I have to agree that a lack of respect in children is concurrent in most Western Countries and we can single out various reasons for it. My Opinion is with adults who have under the last 40 years forgotten how to parent effectively over their Children. Or the various Govenrmental interferrence in the social fabric of the family basis itself

When I was growing up in my own family. My Parents reminded me of the R System as I call it.
1 Respect for one self
2 Respect for Family and members in the family etc
3 Respect for Mother and Father
4 Respect in taking responsibility for own actions
5 Respect for Family Name Honour Honesty etc
6 Respect others in particular Adults Teachers etc etc

Basically Dad said you learn your MANNERS AT THE KITCHEN TABLE. Some Social Engineers might say this is old fashion or out of date. But in my own family it is still working as I apply the same rules of RESPECT in the inner workings of my own family as I was given by my own parents.

As a Parent you make joint decissions with your spouse albiet that being husband and wife in the raising of the kids in the family. And these decissions can range from any aspect. For example when it comes to discpline both parents achieve a united area towards discipline in the family. But one also as a parent has to also discipline themselves. If you are to discipline the children in the family. In my opinion as such if a parent does not have self discipline how do you effectively discipline children in your care.

To many times I have seen Parents trying to be their children's bestest friend if you like. To me this breaks down the boundary of respect that is supposively the ground frame of the family in itself. You can not be your kids bestest friend and in my opinion and be an effective parent at the same time. Some where the boundary between Parent and Child loses itself in a confusion of what the boundaries should be and shouldn't be. Again this is my opinion only. But of course you have to be an effective parent and take responsibility as a parent to you own children. In other words you are the Mentor the guider or in some cases the disciplinary figure of the parent to the child.

Society does have a negative impact on the raising of the Child in the family. Especially when Governments try to interfer in aspects of child raising in the family. I believe Government agency criteria is set to destroy family values in Western Societies in various ways. But again this is my opinion. But it is not just the Government Criterai in the destruction of the family either. And I see parents who lack the ability to be effective parents self destruct their own family values and structure as well.

One can not blame entirely the destruction of family values on Governments alone. As many so called parents go right along merrily with the concept abandoning their responsibilties as parents to their own children and do so quiet readily.

As to the above article about Britian. The same occurs in Australia on a daily basis. But I will say this if one of my own children urinated on a War Memorial. The consquence for my child would be dealt with by either my wife or myself if not both. 

Some may say I am old fashioned in my approach to Child raising. But in our family it still works. And until such time I will continue along with my wife continue what lessons our parents imparted to us when my wife and I were children in our own respective families


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## RabidAlien (Nov 6, 2009)

Excellent response, Emac. I wholeheartedly agree.


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## Amsel (Nov 6, 2009)

It is the death of western civilization all over. There are still places that produce well mannered people but they are increasingly rural areas or southern towns.


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## 109ROAMING (Nov 7, 2009)

"The Death of Respect"

How true


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## Maestro (Nov 7, 2009)

I think the real source of that problem is education of kids...

I mean, there have been good and bad parents since our hairy ancestors came down of their trees millions of years ago. However, there have been a "who gives a f*ck ?" mentallity that started to grow in the majority of human minds in the late 60s.

This is due mainly to the government and public schools. The government told the parents that they would now take care of the kids' education. Leading them to "give up" their parenting to schools and teachers with a strong union who couldn't care less about what and how the kids learn since they're gonna get their paycheck anyway.

Add this to the more recent "pimp culture" that grew up in the 90s, and you've got stoned/boozed/retarded teens acting like douchebags... and female teens acting like whores because there was no one to teach them how to act in the society.

But it is only my opinion... I could be wrong.


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## Emac44 (Nov 7, 2009)

Maestro said:


> I think the real source of that problem is education of kids...
> 
> I mean, there have been good and bad parents since our hairy ancestors came down of their trees millions of years ago. However, there have been a "who gives a f*ck ?" mentallity that started to grow in the majority of human minds in the late 60s.
> 
> ...



Mate you opinion is valid on many areas but. I still believe between Parents and Government Agencies it has been a disunion between both to destroy the very fabric of morality in the family. The Immorality of thinking that goes along saying. If it feels good then do it, Mentality. Which lends itself quiet well to So Called Educators and Parents who quiet frankly decided long ago to be less effective parents


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 7, 2009)

1. This is not limited to just Britain. What has been described in this thread can be found in any and all nations. I see it here in Germany as well as in the United States and every where else I go.

2. Parenting is to blame for this as well. Parents today are lazy and do not take the time to teach and parent their children. They do not pass on good moral and family values. Until parents start taking responsibility for the lives of their children it is only going to get worse.


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## syscom3 (Nov 7, 2009)

Good to see Emac44 is still with us, I haven't seen a post by him in quite some time.

One of my neighbors are both teachers and they have told me time and time again, that the fear of lawsuits against them (or the school district) and the abuse by parents who have an attitude of "my kids s*** doesn't stink" has greatly limited their school districts ability to discipline unruly and rude students. And this is the same across the country. They would love to begin attitude adjustment methods on their stuednts, [no, not physical abuse] but they cant.

Not all is lost with civility though ..... this past Hallowean, plenty of "thank you's" were heard at our door.


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## Njaco (Nov 7, 2009)

I think that:

1. This is endemic to all societies and countries around the world except those that the government has a strangle-hold upon the populace, i.e. Iran.

2. I believe it all comes down to faith or the absence thereof. And by faith I mean a belief in something that is stronger or more powerful than yourself. MOST religions have a respect and morality than their believers practice - its what has carried the civilized world all these many, many years. But when you yourself become the faith then you set the morals and respect that you want, with no guide. So it becomes ok to curse in public, kill your neighbor, throw trash out your car window or basically do whatever you want.

of course thats IMHO.


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## Erich (Nov 7, 2009)

exactamundo, it's the parents and if they don't give a you know what guys guess how the kids are going to react and treat others of all age groups........well they aren't and not even themselves. Personally I give little future in today's youth unless they are determined to quit bitching and suck it up and get on with life ..........in a positive way.


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## ToughOmbre (Nov 7, 2009)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> 1. This is not limited to just Britain. What has been described in this thread can be found in any and all nations. I see it here in Germany as well as in the United States and every where else I go.
> 
> 2. Parenting is to blame for this as well. Parents today are lazy and do not take the time to teach and parent their children. They do not pass on good moral and family values. Until parents start taking responsibility for the lives of their children it is only going to get worse.



Absolutely agree! Too many parents want to be "best friends" with their kids and their kids friends. Parents need to be PARENTS to their kids, with all of the discipline and instilled positive values that goes along with it. 

Be best friends with your kids when your kids grow up to be adults.

TO


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## Maestro (Nov 8, 2009)

Njaco said:


> 2. I believe it all comes down to faith or the absence thereof. And by faith I mean a belief in something that is stronger or more powerful than yourself. MOST religions have a respect and morality than their believers practice - its what has carried the civilized world all these many, many years. But when you yourself become the faith then you set the morals and respect that you want, with no guide. So it becomes ok to curse in public, kill your neighbor, throw trash out your car window or basically do whatever you want.



Not true.

I don't believe in God, Allah, Buddah or whatever the hell you call him. If there really was a God there wouldn't be so much sh*t on Earth. (While most of this said sh*t is created by believers having a "my god is better than yours" syndroma.) So it is not linked to faith, but education.

Why did I never break the law ? Because I feared prison... More particullarly prisons' shower room. Everyone knows what happens in there, so I won't draw you a picture. 

No honestly, the idea of being put in jail really scared (and is still scaring) the sh*t out of me. But now, with the pimp culture, going to jail is saw as being cool. Add this to the YouTube syndroma (peoples doing crazy things and posting them online just to get their 15 secounds of fame), and you get the perfect storm.

So, as I always said, education is the key... Not faith.


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## Negative Creep (Nov 8, 2009)

The worst thing about the gangs of kids is there is nothing you can do back and they know this full well. Yet some lentil eating liberal will never be far away talking about their "tough upbringing" or "human rights". I'm so gald I'm leaving this country, even if it sounds like we aren't the only ones with this problem. It's one of the reasons I'm thinking of joining the Police when I do get back, at least I can do something back!


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## Colin1 (Nov 8, 2009)

Negative Creep said:


> The worst thing about the gangs of kids is there is nothing you can do back and they know this full well. Yet some lentil eating liberal will never be far away talking about their "tough upbringing" or "human rights".
> 
> I'm so glad I'm leaving this country, even if it sounds like we aren't the only ones with this problem.
> 
> It's one of the reasons I'm thinking of joining the Police when I do get back, at least I can do something back!


Agreed on that point
lousy parenting, for whom kids are (were) a novelty, once the novelty wore off the kids were basically left to it, placated with silly designer wear for kids and playstations. The same parents then fly into self-righteous rage when teachers try and do their job and bring the kids into line. I was terrified of crossing the line with my junior school headmaster, a towering, seldom-smiling pillar of authority. Funnily enough, I didn't grow into a terrified adult as a result, just a respectful one. Kids who think they have nothing to fear invariably grow into adults who think they have nothing to respect.
I was no angel as a kid, a bit of a tearaway but when caught and clipped round the ear by the owner of whoever's property or sensibilities I was violating, there was no cry for my human rights, even at that age I knew I'd just got what I deserved. I'm not advocating corporal punishment, but kids need to _fear_ the wrong side of life until they're old enough and their judgement model is well-defined enough for them to know and respect the difference between right and wrong for themselves.

Well, sincerely the best of luck in your new home, this place has gotten nasty to the point where I can't see how they're going to haul it back.

Noble sentiment
but not sure how that's going to help; if they can't get a high-powered Subaru Impreza police interceptor + TV camera crew involved, they're probably going to be 'powerless to intervene...'

Tell me, at what stage in the last few years could you NOT walk into a Police Station and report a crime? You're either highly unwelcome or there's nobody there!


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## Negative Creep (Nov 8, 2009)

I'm not so sure about the whole corporal punishment thing.............my parents instilled respect, morals and discipline in me from a very early age but never once hit me. I'm not for one second claiming I'm perfect but I will show respect to people as long as they act likewise.

But hey, it's not the kid's fault. They have ADHD, autism and dyslexia so it's the school's fault for not treating them accordingly


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## Maestro (Nov 8, 2009)

Negative Creep said:


> But hey, it's not the kid's fault. They have ADHD, autism and dyslexia so it's the school's fault for not treating them accordingly



Good point... That is something I forgot.

In most schools (at least over here), they put kids with Attention Disorders, Dyslexia or even kids who are clinically retarded in the same class as others. (I remember when I was in Grade 6, my elementary school's principal decided to put a trisomic student in a regular class because his parents didn't want to send him in a specialized school. If I remember well, he was in Grade 2. But how did you want kids to study in class when there is a clinically retarded kid sitting next to them, doing some weird things ?)

And teachers no longer give a sh*t about what is going on in their class as long as nobody disturb the "class". That's why teachers keep requesting that some children be sent to school under heavy medication. Because a class of stoned students is easier to handle. And who cares if the kids graduate or not ? Schools have stopped distinguishing winners from losers anyway.



Where is the society going ? Oh, yes... Straight in the wall.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 9, 2009)

Negative Creep said:


> But hey, it's not the kid's fault. They have ADHD, autism and dyslexia so it's the school's fault for not treating them accordingly



I am not so sure about the ADHD thing. Don't take me wrong, I am sure there are real circumstances of this, but I think that many of the ADHD diagnoses are false. I think that schools and parents just want to take the easy way out and not get to the root of the problem.

It is much easier to call a kid ADHD and put him on drugs.


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## Lucky13 (Nov 9, 2009)

One word fellas, NED's!

_Who_ hasn't heard about those f*ckers?


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## Clay_Allison (Nov 9, 2009)

I'm about as much on the front lines of this as anyone. I'm a high school teacher, and considering what I have to put up with from this generation, I'm not interested in teaching the next one.


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## Colin1 (Nov 9, 2009)

Clay_Allison said:


> I'm about as much on the front lines of this as anyone. I'm a high school teacher, and considering what I have to put up with from this generation, I'm not interested in teaching the next one.


You have my sincere sympathy
time was when you crossed the school gates, the teachers were the law. They needed to be - I know what my friends and I were like. Not our fault I hasten to add, kids are kids after all but at least the teachers had the powers to bring us into line.
I don't know why they think modern kids should/would be any different, teachers have been stripped/denied of that_ in loco parentis _element of their duties and kids, esp the ones from the increasing numbers of dysfunctional homes, quickly cotton on to that; instead of laying down the law, they are now fighting a pitched battle (literally, in an increasing number of cases) and they're having to do it with their hands tied behind their backs.

If kids are our future, we're destroying the fabric of our society at grass roots level.


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## Clay_Allison (Nov 9, 2009)

Colin1 said:


> You have my sincere sympathy
> time was when you crossed the school gates, the teachers were the law. They needed to be - I know what my friends and I were like. Not our fault I hasten to add, kids are kids after all but at least the teachers had the powers to bring us into line.
> I don't know why they think modern kids should/would be any different, teachers have been stripped/denied of that_ in loco parentis _element of their duties and kids, esp the ones from the increasing numbers of dysfunctional homes, quickly cotton on to that; instead of laying down the law, they are now fighting a pitched battle (literally, in an increasing number of cases) and they're having to do it with their hands tied behind their backs.
> 
> If kids are our future, we're destroying the fabric of our society at grass roots level.


Guys like Maestro call our profession stupid and lazy while kids don't have to show any respect in the classroom. We're here to teach, not parent or babysit. The reason that the teaching profession is declining in quality is the extent to which the best teachers are being run out of the profession. I'm getting sick of it myself. Giving special effort to try to get one kid turned around is nothing like being stuck in a room with 30 criminals and being told to make them learn when they won't do their work and pay a moment's attention.

Are there bad teachers? Sure. Is there a line of great teachers out in front of the school ready to replace them? No. I wonder why that might be.


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## Colin1 (Nov 9, 2009)

Clay_Allison said:


> We're here to teach, not parent or babysit


Yes, sure
I hope you didn't misunderstand my point, I was merely saying that, in the school-hours absence of the real parents, the teacher was the adult who supervised your activities and your behaviour. These days, they seem to be expected to conduct the former without being offered any means to control the latter.


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## Ferdinand Foch (Nov 9, 2009)

Well, as you guys have said, this problem is everywhere, even in Lyndonville, Vermont. I remember last year where I would ended about a half-dozen empy 30 packs of bud and coors light in the damn parking lot. Sometimes I would have to park next to that crap. [email protected], we even had a guy last year take a [email protected] on the stairs in one of the Freshmen dorms (too [email protected] drunk). Then later he left a note on it saying "oh yeah there's [email protected] right here, no big deal." Didn't even bother cleaning it up, he probably figured that the cleaning ladies would take care of it, which I don't think they did for a while (not that I can blame them). 

I'm really worried about my generation. It's just going to be excuse after excuse for a good chunk of them. Looking back on it all, I'm kinda happy that my mom and dad put the fear of god into Vassili and I. That's what we need more from parents, not sending all the kids to a counselor, and have them say that they are just expressing themselves.


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## Clay_Allison (Nov 9, 2009)

Colin1 said:


> Yes, sure
> I hope you didn't misunderstand my point, I was merely saying that, in the school-hours absence of the real parents, the teacher was the adult who supervised your activities and your behaviour. These days, they seem to be expected to conduct the former without being offered any means to control the latter.


I was reacting to Maestro's teacher bashing there, not you. You are entirely correct.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 9, 2009)

Clay_Allison said:


> Guys like Maestro call our profession stupid and lazy while kids don't have to show any respect in the classroom. We're here to teach, not parent or babysit. The reason that the teaching profession is declining in quality is the extent to which the best teachers are being run out of the profession. I'm getting sick of it myself. Giving special effort to try to get one kid turned around is nothing like being stuck in a room with 30 criminals and being told to make them learn when they won't do their work and pay a moment's attention.
> 
> Are there bad teachers? Sure. Is there a line of great teachers out in front of the school ready to replace them? No. I wonder why that might be.



If it is any consolation, I believe that teachers are a very underpaid and a thankless profession. When I was in the military I thought about doing the soldiers to teachers program, but the things that you describe above are what changed my mind.


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## 109ROAMING (Nov 9, 2009)

Ferdinand Foch said:


> I'm really worried about my generation. It's just going to be excuse after excuse for a good chunk of them.



With ya on the worried part , will only add I'm quite embarrassed


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## Amsel (Nov 9, 2009)

I have noticed a decline in the quality of applicants to my industry. The young guys coming in want all the money and perks but cannot show up and work a full day hardly, and the constant cell phone usage pisses me off. These guys coming in are very unprepared for the workforce.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 9, 2009)

I actually know this kid, he is 18 and just graduated High School. He thought Ben Franklin was a President of the United States, could not tell me one thing that Einstein was famous for, thought that Thomas Edison helped invent the automobile and does not know where to find South Africa on a map (no joking here...).

I am serious about this. I could go on and on and on. I ask him several easy questions every day, he does not know any of them...


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Nov 9, 2009)

Clay, I understand what your facing. My mom is a teacher also, elementary level. She's had a few little sh!ts and their idiot parents.


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## Maestro (Nov 10, 2009)

Clay_Allison said:


> Guys like Maestro call our profession stupid and lazy while kids don't have to show any respect in the classroom. We're here to teach, not parent or babysit. The reason that the teaching profession is declining in quality is the extent to which the best teachers are being run out of the profession. I'm getting sick of it myself. Giving special effort to try to get one kid turned around is nothing like being stuck in a room with 30 criminals and being told to make them learn when they won't do their work and pay a moment's attention.



Woah... Wait a minute, I never said YOU were lazy, and I never said teachers (in general) are stupid. The situation in the US is a tad different. I was speaking for my own Province.

You know, teachers here are directly employed by the gouvernment (except for private schools, which aren't concerned by my statement), making it a perfect spot for lazy and boring state employees.

So, while good teachers are going to work for private schools, we end up (with a few exceptions) with the crap of the bunch.

Many cases were reported in the past about teachers/principals (in public schools) giving the following choice to parents : either you put your kids under medication, or you find an other school for him/her.

They're forcing them to sit at a desk for 40 hours a week for 9 or 10 months and they expect them to sit there still while you've got a boring teacher in the class who is too lazy to find a way to get the kids interrested ?

Teachers are stupid ? No.
Teachers are lazy ? For the most part, yes.
Teachers are boring ? For the most part, yes.
Teachers have a strong union preventing them for being kicked out of the school if they are just incompetent ? Yes.

Don't get me wrong, it is not only the fault of the school. Both sides have their share in this. With my last post, I just wanted to make a correction to my previous post, not just blame the teachers.

**EDIT** Here is the post I was aiming with my last post.



Maestro said:


> I think the real source of that problem is education of kids...
> 
> I mean, there have been good and bad parents since our hairy ancestors came down of their trees millions of years ago. However, there have been a "who gives a f*ck ?" mentallity that started to grow in the majority of human minds in the late 60s.
> 
> ...


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## Emac44 (Nov 10, 2009)

syscom3 said:


> Good to see Emac44 is still with us, I haven't seen a post by him in quite some time.
> 
> One of my neighbors are both teachers and they have told me time and time again, that the fear of lawsuits against them (or the school district) and the abuse by parents who have an attitude of "my kids s*** doesn't stink" has greatly limited their school districts ability to discipline unruly and rude students. And this is the same across the country. They would love to begin attitude adjustment methods on their stuednts, [no, not physical abuse] but they cant.
> 
> Not all is lost with civility though ..... this past Hallowean, plenty of "thank you's" were heard at our door.



Syscom. Sorry about my absence. But been busy. I also fell in with a number of Conservative Americans and Australians who spend time talking about Conservative Politics

And also raising a 8 yr old plus work family etc etc


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## Njaco (Nov 10, 2009)

Maestro said:


> Not true.
> 
> I don't believe in God, Allah, Buddah or whatever the hell you call him. If there really was a God there wouldn't be so much sh*t on Earth. (While most of this said sh*t is created by believers having a "my god is better than yours" syndroma.) So it is not linked to faith, but education.
> 
> ...



Maestro, don't get me wrong. To me its not as simple as "What do you believe in?" It goes much deeper. And its personnal. Faith is personnal whether its in a higher power or in the power of the earth/nature or whatever. Maybe I'm talking about setting a foundation, something that will hold you for all your life.

An example:

I was a singer in semi-famous rock bands around the East coast. And I was immersed in that culture - drugs, drinking, all that. I am amazed at the situations I have been in and walked out without a scratch. I'm no drug addict and never have been. I was a heavy drinker until I decided to just stop.

Why? and how did I do that when I saw numerous friends who couldn't stop sticking that needle in their arm or crack open that whiskey bottle?

Because I had a foundation within me that allowed me to make decisions and the courage in the face of friends and others to stand my ground. I don't care if it was a christian belief, or jewish or muslim or athesist. It was something that gave me a foundation.

and that is what kids are missing. Yeah its the parents. But that is what the parents aren't giving the kids. A solid core.

and now I'm rambling and not making sense.


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## Amsel (Nov 10, 2009)

There was an incident the other day here in Texas where a father just coming back into his neighborhood after taking his son fishing told some teenagers who were speeding down the residential street to slow down. The 16 year olds took a framing hammer to the man and beat him to death in front of his son. This story is horrific because it could happen to any of us.

Five Teens Arrested In Beating Death Of 28-Year-Old Texas Man


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## ToughOmbre (Nov 10, 2009)

Njaco said:


> Maestro, don't get me wrong. To me its not as simple as "What do you believe in?" It goes much deeper. And its personnal. Faith is personnal whether its in a higher power or in the power of the earth/nature or whatever. Maybe I'm talking about setting a foundation, something that will hold you for all your life.
> 
> An example:
> 
> ...



You ARE making sense Chris. I'm with you!

TO


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## Messy1 (Nov 10, 2009)

Maybe it is my old age starting to show up, but everyday I am amazed at what parents let their little girls wear around and go to school in. Also noticed while shopping for my sons first Halloween costume, how many young girls costumes were a little too lacking in material, and way, way too mature for anyone under 18 to be wearing. I saw nurses costumes, Little Red Rising Hood costumes, princess costumes that were all way to sexy looking for a young girl to be wearing. Fishnet stockings, short skirts, etc. We were shocked. Stuff such as this, young girls wearing suggestive clothing they have no business wearing is part of the problem. Parents allowing this should have their heads examined. Parents who allow this type of thing IMO are setting a dangerous example to their kids. Good taste and decency are out the window way too often, it is hard to teach a child about decency and self respect, when they are letting them, or dressing these young kids like this. I think things like this are partly to blame for all the teenage pregnancies you seem to see now a days. Kids have to be taught morals, self respect, the difference between right and wrong, etc. Otherwise all we will have is idiots raising more idiots with no end in sight.


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## Ferdinand Foch (Nov 10, 2009)

109ROAMING said:


> With ya on the worried part , will only add I'm quite embarrassed



He, I'm with ya on that 109. It just gets worse every year. 

Messy: I think I know where these girls are shopping from:

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4rUiV_Hh74_

Amsel: I just read that, My God! I just don't understand it. I hope they throw the book at those vulgars.


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## Clay_Allison (Nov 10, 2009)

Amsel said:


> There was an incident the other day here in Texas where a father just coming back into his neighborhood after taking his son fishing told some teenagers who were speeding down the residential street to slow down. The 16 year olds took a framing hammer to the man and beat him to death in front of his son. This story is horrific because* it could happen to any of us.*
> 
> Five Teens Arrested In Beating Death Of 28-Year-Old Texas Man


Not to me. Licensed Concealed Handgun carrier. Pull out a framing hammer if you want. I'll save the taxpayers some money.


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## Maximowitz (Nov 10, 2009)

It's certainly a worrying world when teachers have to carry concealed weapons.


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## Clay_Allison (Nov 10, 2009)

Dont get me wrong, I cant have it at the school. Unlike Israel, American politicians like schools to be helpless targets.


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## Maximowitz (Nov 10, 2009)

If you feel you need to carry concealed weapons in a school because they are "helpless targets" then there is something seriously wrong.


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## Amsel (Nov 10, 2009)

Maybe our education system is part of the problem. Especially with organizations like the NEA steering our childrens minds.

This is obscene to me and I can't believe the NEA is reccomending it. I take that back... I believe it.
NEA - Recommended Reading: Saul Alinsky, The American Organizer


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## Maximowitz (Nov 10, 2009)

My God, that's almost Socialism!


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## Amsel (Nov 10, 2009)

Maximowitz said:


> My God, that's almost Socialism!


I'd rather the teachers union focus on useful things like math, science, history, the fine arts etc. instead of the useless dribble of Saul Alinsky.
But I'm just saying.

Fine arts is especially important to learn for the children.


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## Clay_Allison (Nov 11, 2009)

Maximowitz said:


> If you feel you need to carry concealed weapons in a school because they are "helpless targets" then there is something seriously wrong.


I'm 2 hours drive from Fort Hood. Yeah, something is definitely wrong here. Thanks for noticing.


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## Maestro (Nov 11, 2009)

Njaco said:


> Maestro, don't get me wrong. To me its not as simple as "What do you believe in?" It goes much deeper. And its personnal. Faith is personnal whether its in a higher power or in the power of the earth/nature or whatever. Maybe I'm talking about setting a foundation, something that will hold you for all your life.
> 
> An example:
> 
> ...



So in fact, we were argueing about the same thing but said in a different way : education.

Your education saved your ass just like my education saved mine. 

Parents gave up their parenting hoping teachers would do it in their place. Oh, how they were wrong !


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## bigZ (Nov 11, 2009)

I can see many valid points in this thread. But I don't think you can blame it on any one factor. I moved from Britain recently to New Zealand. I have 2 boys aged under 4. The lifestyle here especially for kids is fantastic with plently of facilities(Each new block of buildings require a kids park) and free events.

Something not touched upon is the destruction of the family unit. I would like to point out I am not attacking single parent mothers(my own mother was a divorcee and brought up 2 boys from an early age). Without takling the faith aspect of marriage. It is all about a couple making a solem promise to be commited to one another. A fact lost on many and pushed by the media in making it more about the event(Ring, dress ,car, location). In Britain the government often talk about family values(always worries me when a politician talks about values) but offers no incentive.

If I remmember rightly to "teach" translates from Latin to "guide". Sadly a point missed from the British education with its tick the box mentality. Just before I left school things were starting to change for the worse with regards restrictions in activites in case" little Johney got hurt", and the curtaling of school trips. Perhaps am being unfair but some of the newer teaches just couldn't command the respect that the of older generation of teachers. In fact some of the best teachers and well liked were the most feared.

Lets face it in modern western society thier is a culture of selfesness and greed. Just look at the adverts "Buy it because you deserve it ". 

Fortunately I think their is still more good kids than bad. But if you believed everthing in the newspapers you would think that "teenager" is just another name for a social outcast. Its all too easy to blame the kids but I think adults need to step upto the plate.


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## Njaco (Nov 11, 2009)

BigZ, you are right about the destruction of the family unit and it started in the 60's especially with Vatican II. The removal of faith - like I stated any faith - has created a hole within the family and left them to wander. People who never should be parents are now producing with no help on how to.

From the schools to the government, that one core foundation in us has been removed. Why is it bad to kill? Why shouldn't you steal? Where is the concense of society?

On this veterans day over half the poulation look at it as just another day off, school children don't understand (Just ask any of them how many US states there are) and those that are slightly interested are bombarded with ACLU revisonist history to the point that they don't care.

I somehow get the feeling over the past several years that when some soldier returning from Irag or Afghanistan is welcomed by his hometown that sometimes its not actually genuine but a duty because of what happened to Vietnam vets. It should be heartfelt, and for some participating it is, but sometimes I see political correctness seeping all over it. That and the fact the some elected officials just want to look good.

I have to back off as I'm getting alittle political and I don't want to foul up the thread.


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