# Willi Resche´s Tempest kill from April 14,1945



## seesul (Jan 21, 2008)

Hello friends,

believe most of you know the story of low level dogfight of Willi Reschke´s TA-152 vs Mitchell´s Tempest from April 14th, 1945.
W/O Mitchell (486. Sqn, New Zealender) was KIA probably when his emergency landing failed.
I´m looking for the picture of W/O Mitchell. Has anyone got this picture?


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## seesul (Jan 21, 2008)

no new zealander here?


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## Erich (Jan 21, 2008)

Roman I think I've got a pic somewhere in my files but it will be in our book with the mission covered quite indepth from Willi some years ago from a symposium he attended with Herr Loos and several other aces back in the 90's


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## ccheese (Jan 21, 2008)

Erich said:


> ..... but it will be in our book with the mission covered quite indepth from Willi some years ago .....




Erich: Am I going to live to see this book hit the streets ?

Charles


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## Erich (Jan 21, 2008)

yes you will, give it another 10 years Charles .......


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## ccheese (Jan 21, 2008)

Erich said:


> yes you will, give it another 10 years Charles .......




Boy ! Is that wishful thinking. Ten years ?

Charles


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## Erich (Jan 21, 2008)

wishful as to the extension of your life or the book being published ? no most likely another year, doubtful any more than that really, but again in might be 2 volumes, not sure just yet


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## seesul (Jan 21, 2008)

Erich said:


> Roman I think I've got a pic somewhere in my files but it will be in our book with the mission covered quite indepth from Willi some years ago from a symposium he attended with Herr Loos and several other aces back in the 90's



OK Erich, let me know when the book will be finished.
Willi Reschke got a picture of Mitchell but doesn´t want to show it to anyone which I fully understand and accept. It´s too touching for him. He stood in front of his grave during funeral. He got this picture from one New Zealander that wrote a book about New Zealanders serving in RAF during WW2. Don´t know the name of this book.
That´s why I asked here...
Willi Reschke´s son told me a nice story. He was in New Zealand in 90´s and because he knew that his father was in touch with one New Zealander due to to the book (about New Zealanders in RAF), he noted his address, found his house, knocked on the door and told him:_"Hi, Willi Reschke says hello to you and I´m his son."_ This guy was pretty kicked out as he didn´t expect it...


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## ccheese (Jan 21, 2008)

Wishful as to the extension of my being. Put my name on the reserve list
for the book.

Charles


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## seesul (Jan 21, 2008)

ccheese said:


> Wishful as to the extension of my being. Put my name on the reserve list
> for the book.
> 
> Charles



...and mine just behind Charles.My wife likes to pay for the books sent from usa


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## Erich (Jan 21, 2008)

I 'll keep everyone in touch I meet with the co-author/publisher one on one this summer


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## seesul (Jan 21, 2008)

Erich said:


> I 'll keep everyone in touch I meet with the co-author/publisher one on one this summer



Is it Jerry or is it secret?


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## lesofprimus (Jan 21, 2008)

Im pretty sure its Jerry, cause thats the only publisher Erich talks about...


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## Erich (Jan 21, 2008)

maybe, ............ maybe not !


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## bigZ (Jan 21, 2008)

Nahh he's working with Monogram. Should be ready by the 1st 1/4 of 3006?


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## Erich (Jan 21, 2008)

no it's March 3007............geez


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## seesul (Jan 22, 2008)

Anyway guys, back to my question, no one has the pic I asked for?


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## lesofprimus (Jan 22, 2008)

Unfortunatly, the only pic I could find with him in it is this:







He's in there somewhere, but dont know which.....


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## seesul (Jan 22, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> Unfortunatly, the only pic I could find with him in it is this:
> 
> 
> He's in there somewhere, but dont know which.....



So my chances are now 1:60 
Anyway, better than nothing...thank you. Hope one day after getting his portrait photo I´ll be able to identify him here.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 22, 2008)

Sorry man, I spent 30 minutes searchin and thats all I got.... W/O Mitchell isnt exactly a popular guy other than being shot down by the best prop job of WW2, by one of its best pilots...


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## seesul (Jan 22, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> Sorry man, I spent 30 minutes searchin and thats all I got.... W/O Mitchell isnt exactly a popular guy other than being shot down by the best prop job of WW2, by one of its best pilots...



You better than me. I haven´t found anything about him, only few words...
Maybe some New Zealanders could help out with him...
Thank you for trying to help me!


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## lesofprimus (Jan 22, 2008)

Anytime Brother, anytime...


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## seesul (Jun 18, 2008)

Hey New Zealanders,
still no news for me regarding W/O Mitchell?

2 Erich: anything new regarding your new book?


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## Erich (Jun 18, 2008)

Roman I have been working on it the last 4 days inbeetween working high in the trees.

trying to isolate those P-51 vet pilots that want to talk of their experiences instead of trying to just blow me off and not say a word or ignore my mails, and I understand fully why they get so much demanding spam from autograph collectors


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## Matt308 (Jun 18, 2008)

Hey Erich, what about a couple of excerpts from this manuscript. Hmmm?


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## seesul (Dec 10, 2008)

this is what i´ve found in my files, copied somewhere from internet...

It was the 14th April 1945 and the war against Germany was rapidly drawing to an end. A young New Zealander from Nelson, Warrant Officer Owen Mitchell, had found that he was centre-stage to the death-throes of a nation. 
An excellent cricketer and sensitive musician Mitchell had joined the RNZAF in 1942 directly from University where he had been studying engineering. At 20 years of age the young pilot transferred to England where, after training, he started to accumulate flying hours as an instructor and pilot with various Operational Training Units. 
By early 1945 Mitchell had over 700 hours to his credit and was converted onto the latest fighter in the RAF inventory - the Hawker Tempest V. The next step was operational flying and he was delighted, when in early March he found that he had been posted to No. 486 (NZ) Squadron based at Volkel in Holland. The squadron was on the front-line and coming into daily contact with a still very efficient Luftwaffe as well as fierce anti-aircraft fire. 
By early April the squadron had moved into Germany itself and was using their base at Hopsten to harass the enemy both in the air and on the ground. 
At the German base of Neustadt-Glewe, Oberfeldwebel Sattler was also delighted with his new posting - to the elite Luftwaffe unit called the Stabsschwarm (part of JG301). They were flying the latest German fighter and ultimate development of the Focke Wulf 190 series of aircraft - the Ta-152. 
At 6-25pm on the evening of the 14th Mitchell and three others from his squadron took off on an armed reconnaissance of the area. The section attacked a train north of Ludwigslust and then became split up. The leader and his number two ordering Sid Short and Owen Mitchell to make their own ways home. 
Short and Mitchell, busily strafing along the rail tracks nearby on their way home, came under the watchful eye of lookouts at Neustadt-Glewe who immediately despatched three Ta-152 to intercept. The pilots - Aufhammer, Sattler and Reschke were on the scene in seconds. Reschke takes up the story; 
"Flying in No.3 position I witnessed Oberfeldwebel Sattler ahead of me dive into the ground seconds before we reached them. It seemed impossible for the crash to be from enemy action." 
Unknown to Reschke the New Zealander Short had managed to fire at Sattler in a quick pass before being attacked by Aufhammer. Friend and foe now started a turning match that seemed to last forever. Neither could gain the advantage and after 15 minutes the two pilots broke away and returned to their respective bases - glad to be able to fly home in one piece. 
In the meantime Reschke and Mitchell were also in mortal combat. 
"So now it was two against two as the ground level dogfight began. We knew the Tempest to be a very fast fighter, used by the British to chase and shoot down our V-1's/ But here, in a fight which was never to climb above 50 metres, speed would not play a big part. The machines ability to turn would be all important. 
Pulling ever-tighter turns I got closer and closer to the Tempest, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta's capabilities. And in order to keep out of my sights the Tempest pilot was being forced to take increasingly dangerous evasive action. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed. 
The first burst of fire from my Ta-152 caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and, probably as an instinctive reaction, the Tempest pilot immediately yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage. 
Now there was no escape for the Tempest. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent, and despite all my efforts to clear them, refused to fire another shot. I can no longer remember just who and what I didn't curse. But fortunately the Tempest pilot did not recognise my predicament as he'd already taken hits. 
Instead he continued desperately to twist and turn and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually - inevitably he stalled. The Tempest's left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us." 
The young New Zealander was killed instantly and in a quirk of fate his aircraft crashed less than 500 metres from the German pilot Sattler. The Luftwaffe technicians recovered the two pilots' bodies that evening. 
The next day Mitchell and Sattler were buried side by side with full military honours in the Cemetery Neustadt-Glewe. During the funeral Oberfeldwebel Willi Reschke stood guard of honour in front of the coffins. 
It is fitting to end this story here by allowing these two relatively unknown pilots - each flying arguably the most advanced piston-engined fighter produced by their respective nations to see service in the air war over Western Europe - to represent the many thousands on both sides who had gone before. 
Footnote: 
In 1947 the body of Owen James Mitchell was reinterred in the British Military Cemetery in Heerstrasse, Berlin. The Missing Research and Enquiry Unit who recovered the body in September 1947 noted; 
"We visited the area (now in the Russian Zone) and found Body No. 1. This body was found to be clothed in khaki battledress and had New Zealand marked on the shoulder. The socks were RAF blue and the boots RAF escape type flying boots. On a handkerchief found in the pocket I found the name Pettitt in print letters, about Ľ inch high on the hem." 
Owen Mitchell, the New Zealander from Nelson was killed 18 days before the end of hostilities.


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## Erich (Dec 10, 2008)

yes Roman have that account with some slight variations was noting Willi's remarks on a video tape where he describes at least 15 minutes flying after that Tempest until it went down.

Sattlers crate cracked up due to a frozen engine

thanks for the account


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## Glider (Dec 10, 2008)

Erich said:


> yes Roman have that account with some slight variations was noting Willi's remarks on a video tape where he describes at least 15 minutes flying after that Tempest until it went down.
> 
> Sattlers crate cracked up due to a frozen engine
> 
> thanks for the account



Frozen engine? I admit thats a new one on me, can you amplify this.


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## Erich (Dec 10, 2008)

the supercharger malfunctioned and the engine seized ......aka froze up

the mishap was witnessed by many of JG 301 on the ground watching the battle above them.

Klar ? 8)


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## Glider (Dec 10, 2008)

AHH Seized. However that wouldn't make the plane suddenly dive into the ground would it?


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## Erich (Dec 10, 2008)

that depends does it not, if he was coming out of a dive and then no controls, the crate dropped like a heavy rock. same thing happened to my cousin in a Bf 110G-4, only quick action by him as the 110G winged over saved his crew from death, he went down with that stinking craft


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## Glider (Dec 10, 2008)

Why would he lose controls because the supercharger goes? A 110 would have the the problem of power differentials.
Even if you you are in a dive and lose the engine there is no reason why the plane should go straight into a dive.


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## Airframes (Dec 10, 2008)

At the altitude mentioned by Willi Reschke, "not above 50 metres", I would guess there would be very little time, if any, for recovery. I saw this happen to a friend of mine; engine failure after take off, in a turn to starboard. Went straight in from about 200 feet, no chance ro recover, or probably even think about it. And that was in a small, light, relatively modern aircraft.
Of coure, in the case of the Ta152 concerned, there is also the chance that the pilot had been hit, after the quick burst from the Tempest.


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## Glider (Dec 10, 2008)

Airframes said:


> At the altitude mentioned by Willi Reschke, "not above 50 metres", I would guess there would be very little time, if any, for recovery. I saw this happen to a friend of mine; engine failure after take off, in a turn to starboard. Went straight in from about 200 feet, no chance ro recover, or probably even think about it. And that was in a small, light, relatively modern aircraft.
> Of coure, in the case of the Ta152 concerned, there is also the chance that the pilot had been hit, after the quick burst from the Tempest.



I am sorry about your friend, but an engine failure in a turn immediately after take off is always serious and often fatal.

However this 152 was up to speed and an engine failure wouldn't I believe make the plane suddenly nose dive into the ground.


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## timshatz (Dec 10, 2008)

Glider said:


> However this 152 was up to speed and an engine failure wouldn't I believe make the plane suddenly nose dive into the ground.



Could be a question of perspective. Losing 50ft when your engine fails at 30K feet may be nothing but at 50Ft Altitude, it could appear to be a fatal nose dive. Just a thought. 

What was the wing loading on the Ta-152? If it was a high load bird, it could drop like a stone. Last of the piston engined fighters were pretty hairy rides. Way tuned up.


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## Glider (Dec 10, 2008)

My belief is that you don't suddenly lose a lot of speed when an engine supercharger goes, and you don't suddenly nose dive into the ground. Only a catastrophic failure of some kind, or in this case it was probably hit by the Tempest on a critical area.

Besides, how do we know that it was a supercharger failure? The plane went into the ground and I don't see a detailed investigation taking place with the war in such a chaotic situation.


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## timshatz (Dec 10, 2008)

Glider said:


> The plane went into the ground and I don't see a detailed investigation taking place with the war in such a chaotic situation.



Yeah, no chance of that.


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## Erich (Dec 10, 2008)

you might want to hang onto your didies for a new book to come out next year


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## Glider (Dec 11, 2008)

Happily, any idea when and what the title will be.


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## seesul (Dec 11, 2008)

Erich said:


> you might want to hang onto your didies for a new book to come out next year



Great news, so now we know at least the year...


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## claidemore (Dec 11, 2008)

Erich said:


> the supercharger malfunctioned and the engine seized ......aka froze up
> 
> the mishap was witnessed by many of JG 301 on the ground watching the battle above them.
> 
> Klar ? 8)



I believe the JG 301 staff would have been at Neustadt-Glewe airfield?, which is 10 kms from Ludwigslust and the action took place north of Ludwigslust? How can you recognize a supercharger failure from 10 kms away? Also, it was dusk, and as the fight took place west of N/Glewe (at 50 ft!) , any onlookers were looking right into the setting sun with more than a few trees obscuring the view. The airfield is on the southeast end of N/Glewe, and there is a forested area to the west of it. 

I've heard just about every possible and impossible explanation for Sattlers plane going down, heart attack, stroke, engine failure, control failure, pilot error etc etc. Everything imaginable except enemy action. 

BTW, according to Shorts combat report, he did not fire at Sattler, only at Aulfhammer after a long climbing turn fight. Two other Tempest pilots claim "FW190s" at that time and place, Sheddan and Shaw. It is also possible that Mitchell fired at Sattler before he was engaged by Reschke "a few seconds later". Short had spotted them coming and warned Mitchell and both had dropped their tanks. 

In any case, we have 3 different Tempest pilots who could/may have been responsible for shooting Sattler down, or he could have had a heart attack/stroke/engine failure/ structural failure. We will never know for sure, but if you eliminate the impossible and the improbable .....?


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## ponsford (Dec 11, 2008)

claidemore said:


> I've heard just about every possible and impossible explanation for Sattlers plane going down, heart attack, stroke, engine failure, control failure, pilot error etc etc. Everything imaginable except enemy action.
> 
> In any case, we have 3 different Tempest pilots who could/may have been responsible for shooting Sattler down, or he could have had a heart attack/stroke/engine failure/ structural failure. We will never know for sure, but if you eliminate the impossible and the improbable .....?



Claidemore, I concur with your assessment and conclusion that logically follows. The implications deriving from the excuses are, in a word, scary.


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## Erich (Dec 11, 2008)

excuses is a cheap word. The book I refer to at the moment is Monograms/EE's Ta 152 book coming out in the spring. Realize gentlemen and I am going to be deliberately vague, interviews were taken from the eye witnesses during this action, from log books compiled and will be used for this book as well as my own for the future.

it would be revelation if proved and it has not been that Sattlers crate was damaged by Tempest fire that would of caused his demise.

it is rather obvious whatever I share here will not be taken as fact so I will leave it at that. Appreciate Claids comments and have done so myself the lat 30 years studying JG 301

v/r E ~


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## lesofprimus (Dec 11, 2008)

> it is rather obvious whatever I share here will not be taken as fact


Thats a crock of sh!t Erich, as I believe what u tell me over any other source, including other researchers... There are many of us here that feel the same way Brother, so dont knock urself down like that....

Fu*k the naysayers man...


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## Wayne Little (Dec 12, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> Thats a crock of sh!t Erich, as I believe what u tell me over any other source, including other researchers... There are many of us here that feel the same way Brother, so dont knock urself down like that....
> 
> Fu*k the naysayers man...



Damn Straight!


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## seesul (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi Wayne,

don´t ya have any details about Mitchell or pic of him?


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 12, 2008)

Hey Seesul

Sorry on my search I wasn't able to find anything

good luck though

hope you find something

I'm very interested in him now


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## seesul (Dec 12, 2008)

Hello Roaming,

thank you for the time spent on searching for him, I haven´t found anything as well after hours of searching.

There must me some historian from New Zealand who wrote a book about Mitchell´s squadron or group...as Willi Reschke´s son met him during his vacation in New Zealand...and if I´m not wrong this historian sent a pic of Mitchell to Willi Reschke. Willi doesn´t want to show this pic as it is too personal for him and I understand it...as Willi stood next to the grave when Mitchel was burried...

I´ll try to ask Willi´s son for the historian´s name and there you could start then...O.K.?


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 12, 2008)

That'd be good Mate

Il also ask on a New Zealand forum about him ,hopefully I can get some photo's/info


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## Erich (Dec 12, 2008)

I'd be very much interested in the Allied side of things for this op Roaming if you find out anything at all. I have Willis full interview on video tape besides it all written up. there is no doubt to me that the days op was very confusing from both sides

thank you in advance. and as a side note what was Mitchell squadron again please ?

E ~ and Roman have you asked on the luftarchiv.de forum for any more infos ?


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 12, 2008)

Sure thing Erich ,will be happy to share any info/photos found

He was in 486. Sqn 

hopefully someone from over here will be able to help me


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## seesul (Dec 12, 2008)

Erich said:


> I'd be very much interested in the Allied side of things for this op Roaming if you find out anything at all. I have Willis full interview on video tape besides it all written up. there is no doubt to me that the days op was very confusing from both sides
> 
> thank you in advance. and as a side note what was Mitchell squadron again please ?
> 
> E ~ and Roman have you asked on the luftarchiv.de forum for any more infos ?



I think so Erich, will check it out...


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## Erich (Dec 12, 2008)

I'd be happier than plum pudding if someone could find and make copy of Wt. Off. W.J. Shaws combat report as well as Flg. Off S.J. Shorts for me, the two other gents as noted on the other page taking on Stab./JG 301 Ta's ........

thanks

Erich ~


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## ponsford (Dec 12, 2008)

Erich said:


> I'd be happier than plum pudding if someone could find and make copy of Wt. Off. W.J. Shaws combat report as well as Flg. Off S.J. Shorts for me, the two other gents as noted on the other page taking on Stab./JG 301 Ta's ........
> 
> thanks
> 
> Erich ~



They can be found here Erich:

Tempest V Performance


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## Erich (Dec 12, 2008)

thank you Ponsford, I would like to cover both sides of this interesting scenario

appreciated much !

Erich ~


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## Lucky13 (Dec 13, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> Thats a crock of sh!t Erich, as I believe what u tell me over any other source, including other researchers... There are many of us here that feel the same way Brother, so dont knock urself down like that....
> 
> Fu*k the naysayers man...



I second that!


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Dec 13, 2008)

If Owen Mitchell had been flying a Spitfire I wonder if his fate would have been different. I can't imagine a Spitfire stalling out like that to a Ta 152.

The Tempest was after all a work horse fighter, like the P-47. Neither of them could turn very well at low altitude.


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## seesul (Dec 13, 2008)

ponsford said:


> They can be found here Erich:
> 
> Tempest V Performance



 what a find, many thanks! So 2 FW´s reported to be destroyed on that day?


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 14, 2008)

Been recommended to go to this Tempest forum but for some reason I can't register

The Hawker Tempest Page :: Index

Can someone else try and register? I've emailed the "webmaster" with no luck


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## Erich (Dec 14, 2008)

@ Roman

still looking to see through GErman docs sif they mention Sattler's crate getting hit by the New Zealand Tempests. cannot find any other Fw's or Doras or Ta's from JG 301 downed this date. . . . . . so fat anyway


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## claidemore (Dec 15, 2008)

Some other things that happened on or around April 14, 1945. 
Roosevelt died on April 12. 
Bergen-Belsen liberated by British troops. 
320000 german troops in the Ruhr surrendered to General Bradley.
Only 3 weeks left in the war in Europe. 

Also, from Mike Williams site:
Spitfire Mk XIV versus Me 109 G/K
Here are a couple Spitfire pilots combat reports from April 24,1945



> F/Lt C. J. Samouelle of 130 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 24 April, 1945:
> 
> I was leading Yellow section of 130 Squadron and we were at 7,000 ft when Yellow 3 (F/Sgt Woodman) reported an A/C at 9 o'clock to us. We were flying East at the time. I immediately gave chase and we steadily overhauled the E/A which was diving towards the aerodrome at NEUSTADT. Just as we approached the A/D F/Sgt Woodman got within range and gave the E/A a short burst. It rolled over to starboard and crashed into a field. I also saw F/L Bruce (Yellow 5) attack a FW 190 on my starboard side. There was a great red flash from the E/A and the pilot baled out. This A/C crashed into a field S.E. of the aerodrome.
> By this time there were two or three FW 190's round the circuit I saw one with wheels down at about 1,000 ft going found the circuit. I closed in to about 300 yds and just as the E/A got its wheels up I opened fire from dead astern. I got strikes all over the rear of the fuselage and the E/A crashed immediately into a village N.W. of the aerodrome.
> ...





> F/Lt Bruce of 130 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 24 April, 1945:
> 
> My section was on an armed recce in the PLITZ WALK area and we were at 7,000 ft going East when Yellow 3 (F/Sgt Woodman) reported a F.W. 190 at 7,500 ft going N.E. As we approched the aerodrome I saw another F.W. 190 at a 1,000 ft with its wheels down about to make its approach and land. I pulled up to the right to lose speed and then came down behind the e/a opening fire at 300 yds, at 30 degrees off. I saw strikes on the fuselage near the cockpit. The e/a had retracted his undercarriage and turned to port. I closed to 50 yds and saw him jettison his hood. He turned tightly across me. I fired again as he crossed me and I saw more strikes on the starboard wing. The e/a slowly rolled on its back and went down vertically to about 500 ft at which height the pilot bailed out. The A/C went down and crashed about 2 miles from the A/D.
> I claim this E/A destroyed.
> F/LT Samouelle confirms the claim. He says: I saw the e/a calimed by F/LT Bruce crash into a field on the edge of a wood on the South East side of the Aerodrome. There was a big red flash as F/LT Bruce attacked and the pilot bailed out.



Both 130 and 350 Spitfire squadrons operated in the Ludwigslust area during the time in question and recorded a number of "long nosed 190" kills. 

486 Squadron pilots also got 3 FW kills over Neustadt-Glewe on April 16, Shedden, Shaw, Shrader and Reid. Reid mentions specifically that his was a "long nose". 

Odds are that all these kills were Doras, but given that JG301 Ta152s were operating out of Neustadt-Glewe, it does make one wonder.


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## seesul (Dec 16, 2008)

109ROAMING said:


> That'd be good Mate
> 
> Il also ask on a New Zealand forum about him ,hopefully I can get some photo's/info



Hi Roaming,

got an e-mail from Willi´s son today telling me that he doesn´t remember the historian´s name but he will send it to me as this historian sent his book to Willi few years ago. So he has to speak with his father and he will let me know...
So it means there must be a book written by some Newzealander, but don´t know if it is about Mitchell´s sqdn, wing or just about Newzealanders serving in RAF...anyway, will keep you informed...


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## Airframes (Dec 16, 2008)

Hi Roman,
I know it's not directly related to this incident, but there is a book written by a New Zealander, a WW2 pilot named Johnnie Houlton. The book is 'Spitfire Strikes' and, as suggested, is about his Spitfire squadron. I'll have a look through it in case there's any references to combat on the same dates. Incidentally, Houlton's last Spitfire IX still flies in the UK, as a 2-seater, in the hands of Caroline Grace.
Terry.


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## seesul (Dec 16, 2008)

Hi Terry, think this is related to another sqdn, 485th I guess?


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## seesul (Dec 16, 2008)

Something from Wikipedia yet:

The Ta 152's first combat occurred on 14 April 1945 when Oberfeldwebel Willy Reschke tried to intercept a De Havilland Mosquito over Stendal, but failed to catch up due to engine trouble.[4]

On the evening of that same day, Reschke was to demonstrate that the Ta 152H could be used as a low-altitude fighter. A section of four Hawker Tempest Vs of 486(NZ) Squadron were out on patrol. After attacking a train near Ludwigslust, the section split up into pairs; Wing Commander Brooker ordered the Tempests flown by Flying Officer S J Short and Warrant Officer Owen J Mitchell to make their own way back to base. On the way back, this pair, which was strafing targets along the railway tracks near Ludwigslust, was spotted by lookouts posted at Neustadt-Glewe. Three Ta 152s flown by Reschke, Oberstleutnant Aufhammer and Oberfeldwebel Sattler were scrambled, catching the Tempests by surprise. Reschke:

We reached the position at an altitude of 200 metres, just at the moment when both Tempests after diving started climbing again. Just as the dogfight was developing Sepp Stattler, on our side, was hit and his plane fell like a stone out of the sky [...] The Tempest which I attacked quickly reached the same height as me and was [at] approximately 10 o'clock before me. The dogfight began between 50 and 100 metres above ground level and very often the wing tips passed close over the treetops.[...] The whole fight was executed in a left-hand turn, the low altitude of which would not allow for any mistakes. Ever so gradually I gained metre by metre on the Tempest and after a few circles I had reached the most favourable shooting position. [...] I pressed my machine-gun buttons[5]for the first time [...] I could see the Tempest for a short moment in straight ahead flight displaying slightly erratic flying behaviour. But immediately she went straight back into the left turn. [...] I sighted the Tempest very favourably in my cross-hairs and could not have missed but my machine-guns experienced feeding problems. I therefore tried to shoot it down with my cannon and forced her into a tight left-hand turn from where she tipped out over her right wing and crashed into a forest.

The Tempest was that flown by W/O Mitchell who was killed. It is thought that Obfw Stattler had been shot down by either F/O Short or Pilot Officer Bill Shaw of 486 Sqn, who claimed a Bf 109 in the same area (the Ta 152s were mistaken for 109s)


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## seesul (Dec 16, 2008)

Hey Roaming, what about this?
*Sortehaug, Paul. The Wild Winds; The History of Number 486 RNZAF Fighter Squadron with the RAF. Dunedin, New Zealand: Otago University Print 1998., ISBN 1-877139-09-2*
Check it out please...


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## Airframes (Dec 16, 2008)

Hi Roman, you're right, the book I mentioned is about Houlton's time with that squadron, but I think there might be a passage about a friend of his in a Tempest squadron. I'll check and let you know.
Terry.


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## Erich (Dec 16, 2008)

Reschkes Weiße 1 did not have any mg's fitted only cannon in the inner wings and through the prop


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## lesofprimus (Dec 16, 2008)

U beat me to it Erich....


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 17, 2008)

seesul said:


> Hey Roaming, what about this?
> *Sortehaug, Paul. The Wild Winds; The History of Number 486 RNZAF Fighter Squadron with the RAF. Dunedin, New Zealand: Otago University Print 1998., ISBN 1-877139-09-2*
> Check it out please...




Will do asap


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## seesul (Dec 17, 2008)

Thanks! And then let me know please, if there´s a pic of Mitchell in this book. If not, we could try to get in touch wih Paul Sortehaug somehow...


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## phas3e (Dec 17, 2008)

I have access to the book 'the wild winds' its quite sort after here in NZ and I havnt got a copy myself yet.

It mentions the fight but not in great detail, the 152s were reported as 109s at them time by one of the pilots engaged. 
but it doesnt go into much detail, I can scan the pages up after christmas hopefully.

Im keen for the codes and serial of the Tempest if anyone has them, as I've been asked to do a 152 screenshot piece and wanted to do a recreation of this scene


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 17, 2008)

Yup sure is mate

I may be able to take a look at it tomorrow ,its a "reference only" book from the Library

But as you said if theres not much in it then I don't see the point of looking but I will anyhow


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## seesul (Dec 17, 2008)

W.R. flew ''white 1'' that day, no idea about W.Nr. Maybe Erich could know something, if it is not secret yet?


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## CloCloZ (Dec 17, 2008)

I recently investigated the 14-4-45 Ludwigslust's aerial combat, collecting every information I could find on the net and on books and drawing my own conclusions.
Since my analysis it's quite long (and also includes an analysis of the over-hype surrounding Ta152H) I think it would be better to publish the outcome on a web site page and not on a Forum, so I'll report (in the following two posts) just my conclusions about the fight.


(more to follow ...)


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## CloCloZ (Dec 17, 2008)

(continued)

The sources are:
- the overly famous RESCHKE'S ACCOUNT (you'll find it everywhere, also into this thread ...)
- RODERICH CESCOTTI'S ACCOUNT (as reported at Ta 152 vs Tempest V mythology - Topic Powered by eve community)
- OFFICIAL RAF REPORTS
(from: Tempest V Performance, scanning of the original Short and Shaw’s report at http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/tempest/486-shaw-14april45.jpg)
- RAF 2ND TAF'S VERSION OF THE ENCOUNTER (from the book “2nd TAF Vol. Three from Rhine to Victory, Jan to May 45”, Shores and Thomas, pg 486, as reported at Ta 152 vs Tempest V mythology - Topic Powered by eve community)
- A NEW ZEALANDER JOURNALISTIC RECONSTRUCTION (from NZFPM |Two of the Best)
- TEMPEST VICTORIES ON APRIL 14, 1945
(from The Hawker Tempest Page)
- DISCOVERINGS AND OPINIONS ON WILLI RESCHKE'S (AND OTHER GERMAN PILOTS) STORIES "RELIABILITY"
from the now-defunct page "http://members.aol.com/falkeeins/Sturmgruppen/contents.html"; unfortunately AOL Hometown pages "has been shut down permanently" since Oct. 31, 2008. Until a few weeks ago it was possible to retrieve that page from Google cache: cache:0OGtoE7bkFcJ:members.aol.com/falkeeins/Sturmgruppen/contents.htm - Google Search but now is dead (however I locally saved page content).
and from Pilots who flew the Ta152 - Luftwaffe Experten Message Board

I'll omit here many long considerations about reports, sources, mistakes (e.g. the erroneous identification of Ta152Hs as Me109) and their coherence (or not), as well as explanation of apparent weak points of my version, just to came to conclusions.


_------------------------------------------------------------------------
*THIS IS MY PICTURE OF WHAT LIKELY HAPPENED:*

- Four Tempests of 486 Squadron (Brooker and Shaw in the first pair, Short and Mitchell in the second pair) were flying in the Ludwigslust area, attacking ground targets north and east of the town.
Both pairs were flying at low-level, but Short and Mitchell were pulling up after an attack and headed for homebase, whereas Brooker and Shaw were still diving.

- Three Ta152, flown by Aufhammer, Reschke and NN (unidentified pilot) scrambled at once from Neustadt-Glewe to intercept the Tempests. A fourth Ta152 (Sattler) took off a few minutes after (due to a starter problem) and flown to the battle separated by the other three.

- Sattler DON'T climbed up until at least 2000 m, as Cescotti's report suggests, to join the fight. He has to flown much lower and almost horizontally, in order to regain the time previously lost at take-off. Then he managed to arrive near to Short and Mitchell about at the same time of his comrades, unaware that he has been spotted by Shaw.

- The first Tempest pair (Brooker and Shaw) were diving when Shaw spotted Sattler's Ta152, east of their position.
Brooker and Shaw Tempests were east of Ludwigslust, whereas Sattler was coming from north-east and, almost joining his comrades, was attacking the other pair (Short and Mitchell) which was at a slightly northern position.

- Brooker (which, being No.1 was probably leading the dive) was unable to pull up quickly and pursue the Ta152

- So Shaw took the initiative, stopping the dive, gaining height and then diving onto the German (which at that point was probably positioning himself to attack Short and Mitchell).
Sattler was hit by Shaw with a good deflection shot and was downed in flames, diving and crashing.
His crash was noticed by the other German pilots, that at least in part were equally unaware of Shaw and Brooker, hence Reschke disbelief about a possible enemy action against Sattler (remember: according to Reschke report, they all had an eye on the only two Tempests they thought were involved into the action, they weren't aware of the other two!).
Since nor Brooker neither Shaw attacked the remaining three Ta152, it’s possible that they even didn’t saw them just like Reschke didn’t saw Shaw, so confirming that Sattler flown (and was downed) at a certain distance by Reschke.

- At the same time, the other three Ta152s attacked Short and Mitchell by rear, at very low level. Short managed to gain height and started a turning fight against Aufhammer, from the deck up to 4000m (according to Cescotti; from Short’s report we know he climbed up to about 6000ft/2000m at least). Mitchell was unable to do so, then was slightly damaged by Reschke and crashed (maybe more for a stall or a wrong manoeuvre than for having being critically hit; it’s even possible that Reschke didn’t fired at all!).
Mitchell was a pilot with almost no combat experience, flying the Tempest and being on the front-line since no more than a month and half (NZFPM |Two of the Best).
On the contrary, Reschke was already an ace (24 victories at that moment, two more in the following days), with almost ten months of hard fighting at the front (Aces of the Luftwaffe - Willi Reschke).
I think that Mitchell's fate was signed at the moment he started turning at low height and low speed, having to face a German ace (and one more Ta152) when flying a tricky plane in that condition. 

- At higher altitude, after 3 turns Short managed to damage Aufhammer, but was forced to break by the arrival of Reschke and the NN pilot that, after Mitchell's downing, climbed up and joined Short and Aufhammer at the turning dogfight (in fact, Short reports he had "one 109 [an obvious identification mistake here] on my tail another positioning to attack").

- Cescotti says that Aufhammer's Ta152 had a failure on the supercharger setting, so he was unable to get a kill. Strangely, he don't mention any damage on Aufhammer's plane, notwithstanding the fact he was certainly hit by Short (and by more than a shot, Short reports about four). This brings me to have some suspects about Cescotti’s account on this point.
My opinion is that Aufhammer damage was only of moderate entity, but he probably would have been downed by Short if the other two Ta152s wouldn't have helped him.
Aufhammer is ranked as an "ace" having five victories (Axis History Factbook: Fighter aces of the Luftwaffe), that is a quite moderate achievement for an experienced German pilot!
On the other side, Short had at least one victory on the Tempest, a FW190 downed on December 27, 1944, in the Münster area (The Hawker Tempest Page).
Also look at this interesting citation: "Oberstleutnant Fritz Aufhammer was the official Kommodore but was mainly an administrator" (JG 301 STABSSCHWARM Ta 152).
Frankly speaking, considering that Cescotti doesn’t mention at all any damage on Aufhammer’s plane, I think that Cescotti could lie about the failure, just to justify the lack of any combat results by his Kommodore (quite a bad thing for a formally "chief" in a desperate Luftwaffe headed towards the defeat, with chiefs very likely risking the Court Martial in case of suspected cowardice, remember that during the last months of war about 5000 german soldiers were shot by firing squad for desertion and cowardice ...). This could also explain the missing info about the damages suffered by the Kommodore’s Ta152, to put all the blame on the “failure” and to exalt Kommodore’s “skill” in spite of that trouble.
Please note that if we accept all the details given by the German reports, we have to draw the conclusion that in the same short action there were 4 failures on three Ta152s out of four! 
1) Sattler starter 2) Sattler’s unknow deadly failure 3) Aufhammer’s supercharger failure 4) Reschke’s weapons failure
Possible but unlikely, even for Ta152H …
I obviously have no proof, but I tend to disbelieve to the reality of presumed failure 2 (that seems aimed at defending the combat reputation of the plane) and reported failure 3 (that seems aimed at defending the combat reputation of the Kommodore, even more than plane’s reputation).

- After Reschke and NN arrival near Short, the dogfight ended. Short headed for home and so did the three Ta152s.
The first Tempest pair, Brooker and Shaw, has likely already headed for homebase, too. It seems that Brooker never entered into any fight and that neither him nor Shaw (after having downed Sattler) went in help of Short and Mitchell.
I think it’s probable that, in dusk scarce light, Brooker and Shaw didn’t even saw the remaining three Ta152, that at the time of Sattler’s shooting down were circling at very low level.
Moreover it’s likely that the first pair was low on ammo (if not out of ammo), probably they used a lot when strafing ground targets before the aerial combat, and they could be low on fuel too (they had tanks but dropped them to face the enemies).
On the contrary, the Ta152s has just been refuelled and were fully armed.
It seems that Short’s Tempest didn't have any problem in disengaging, in spite of the much vaunted (by the Germans) "superior performance" of their fighter (and take note that the final phase of Short’s dogfight happened a 4000m, an altitude which is at the upper limit of Tempest's "good zone") ...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------_

(more to follow ...)

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## CloCloZ (Dec 17, 2008)

(continued)

_------------------------------------------------------------------------
*CONCLUSIONS.*

In my opinion RAF version, as reported in 2nd TAF's book, is the correct one, or at least the more reliable.
Not only because it is (understandably) in good agreement with RAF pilots personal reports, but also because is in good agreement with German reports when you "purify" them from inconsistencies they have between themselves (!).

In fact:

1) RAF version relies on pilot reports written short after the fight, whereas the German side reports seems to be just stories collected dozens of years later.
Note that, according to J-Y Lorant researches, Reschke's tales seems to be quite unreliable "in particular about some victories obtained at the controls of the revolutionary late war Ta 152". Reschke here is wrong about the total number of Tempests and is not really credible when says he was behind Sattler, if we have to trust Cescotti more than him. Since Reschke has been proved unreliable in other cases, I trust Cescotti more than him about details both should know (total number of enemies detected and Sattler being late at take-off).
Only thing I am a little bit skeptical about is Cescotti's account of Aufhammer supercharger failure, made without mentioning any damage on his plane (which was certainly involved in a long turning battle, so was certainly his plane that was damaged by Short).
The two things seems to lead to the conclusion that Cescotti tried to find a "justification" for Kommodore's lackluster performance (even if that could be excusable, for a pilot that was mainly an "administrator" ...).
Add this to the usual mythicization of the Ta152 from German side and you'll find many answers ...

2) Reschke's own account made quite clear that three Ta152 pilots (himself, Aufhammer and NN) directed their attention just towards the Short-Mitchell pair, ignoring that there were another pair near them. This seems to be confirmed by the fact that after Sattler crash all three remaining Ta152 chased Short, whereas nor Shaw neither Brooker were involved in further fights. Therefore, Reschke and Short reports agree about this "fixation" of German pilots, so leaving Shaw creditably free, unnoticed and being able to take Sattler by surprise (just like RAF version suggests).
Being Sattler late (a creditable detail, when told by a ground technical member which probably not only witnessed the takeoff but also took part in the solution of the starter problem!) he probably was in a better (and slightly detached) position to notice the Brooker-Shaw pair, at least at the last moment. He probably did, but was almost instantly killed by Shaw.

So, joining the strong points of RAF official reports and using the German reports (that also show revealing inconsistencies), we have a good explanation both about German pilots behaviour (fixation on Short-Mitchell pair) and the reason of Sattler's crash (Shaw, ignored by all German pilots, had the opportunity to take him by surprise).

[omissis]

So, at the end we have:

- on one side an "unexplicable" crash of a Ta152H
and
- on the other side a FW190-like plane surely downed by Shaw, in the same area and at the same time where his teammates were fighting against Ta152Hs and where Sattler’s Ta152H crashed

*I think it quite easy to draw the conclusion that is very, very likely that Shaw downed Sattler’s Ta152H.*

Of course, there is no absolute confidence that things went exactly like I described. But I think that the scenario I described accounts well for all the relevant details of the episode, first of all the "mysterious" crash by Sattler.

*In my opinion, only the evidence of another FW190 downed on April 14, 1945 in the same or very near area and the same time (distinct by the one downed by Sheddan) could lead at the conclusion that Shaw didn’t took part at the battle and downed another plane instead of Sattler’s Ta152H.
So far, I didn’t found that evidence.*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------_

(end)


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## Erich (Dec 17, 2008)

CloClo thank you very much for your interesting hypothesis........let me add two cents although this may all sound like a mish-mash of information/ am taking more cancer meds so my head is not quite clear/ Cescotti plainly states this that Sattler took off after the other Tanks were airborne got into a fight with a Tempest scored some hits (ah but which Tempest ?) in a sharp dive and the dive continued until Sattlers tank hit the ground and burst into flames. No mentions of being hit or shot down in flames. Cescotti goes on to say in his version as he saw it from the ground with other Tech personell that I mentioned in an earlier post; his thoughts that Sattlers unit must have gone through the sound barrier during the fierce dive and the controls froze up. other tech personell heard a boom and though it was supercharger /engine malfunction(s) seized engine and poof, could not pull out of the dive. C ~ finishes by stating the TA 152H was not built for extreme stress (no kidding ! ) 

in regards I personally appreciate the scenarios from both sides of this questionable equation as this is the best instead of one side or another. Several of Stab.JG 301 pilots Flugbuchs have been copied and are in our possession for the future books, but must understnad the point and REschek makes this readily apparent in his own work if you read bestween the many lines, his book is really about him and is just a glossing over of the unit JG 301, he even states several times in earlier 1944 missions that the mission reports have been lost, things were not up to date in regards to being written down properly by the JG's historian and Willi questions this over and over......in fact on a couple of mission in December 44 his own III. gruppe was given no kills, although he witnessed several US bombers being shot down and upon further reflection and interviews of those bomber group reps interviewed indeed through their own admission bombers were indeed shot down by the JG . So with this you can see how hard it is and is going to be to try and put an operation and the players one on one with each other-whom shot down whom on this very date as one specific incident.
Aufhammer I feel was not protected but was a scared CO flying a updated crate that he was not prepared to fly but thought and felt proud that his JG was responsible for putting the Tank up in the air against the Allies/Soviets whenever and wherever he/they could. So screwed up was JG 301 they were literally torn apart after march 2, 1945 as to airfields when they could find airfields, defending against Soviet jabo attacks and performing those as well against the Soviets and yet trying to take out Tempests and even up flying or trying to fly versus the 8th AF Mustangs. Remember too where Cescotti was viewing the air battle on this date, the home of II./JG 301 which flew the Fw 190D-9. At this time I have no records of Doras of II.gruppe being lost but it would not surprise me in the least that the 486th squadron ran up in the air and these are the A/C that were claimed as shot down - Bf 109's, in reality Dora -9's.

now anyone have more questions because I certainly do......... 

v/r E ~


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## CloCloZ (Dec 17, 2008)

Erich, Cescotti's and Resche's accounts are in full conflict on Cescotti's statement of Sattler being late "a few minutes" in take-off faced to the contemporary statement of Reschke that he was flying behind Sattler at the moment of the crash.
*There is a logical (and practical) conflict regarding both the fact Reschke flown behind Sattler (--> impossible!) and also the fact Sattler could have climbed up to 2000 mt or more and being on battle area exactly at the same time of Reschke (--> impossible!).*

In fact it's not possible at all that Reschke flew behind Sattler during the flight from the airfield to the battle zone, if we had to believe to Sattler's delay in takeoff (which is a particular that a technical officer like Cescotti should remember more easily than the German ace, also considering that one of his duties was just to solve technical troubles!).
Considering that Ludwigslust North is about 8-10 km far from Neustadt-Glewe LW airport, even guessing an average speed of just 300 km/h for the first three Ta152, it would have been sufficient a couple of minutes to reach the battle area and Sattler was, according to Cescotti's words, late by "a few minutes".
So, it's impossible that Sattler:
1) was flying in front of Reschke
2) reached the battle area at the same times of his teammates, following the same path of his comrades.

And please note that more you guess the battle area was really near Neustadt-Glewe and more Cescotti's account on Sattler is unlikely!

The only explanation, if we want to try to keep all this together (and considering Reschke's statement a bad memory, it seems he has several ... ), is that the first three Ta152 climbed up to some thousands of meters, seeking altitude advantage while reaching Ludwigslust North, and that Sattler was induced *to fly almost on the deck* (just like Shaw's report says ...  ) to regain so much time lost at take off and join the fight just from the start.

So, Cescotti's report is unreliable about Sattler's flight, because of Cescotti's words themselves!
It's impossible that Sattler was late by a few minutes, then "climbed above the ongoing dogfight", then arrived on place at the same time when dogfight started and finally dived "from 2000 mt", as Cescotti says, ...

Add to this the fact that it's quite incredible (at least to me ...) that Cescotti could have seen all that so clearly from many kilometers away!

Please consider this:
1) in the unlikely case that the fight would have took place above or very near Neustadt-Glewe (only real chance for Cescotti to eyewitness it), Sattler would have been still on the ground when Reschke intercepted Mitchell!

2) in the same unlikely case, the fact the battle took place above or very near an enemy airport (a quite dangerous situation for the Allieds!) would have certainly been mentioned in RAF pilots reports. It wasn't.

3) if, as can be deduced also by RAF reports, the battle took place about 8-10 kilometers away from Neustadt-Glewe, near Ludwigslust North, there is no chance for Cescotti to have witnessed it ...

4) I don't know if you have other sources for Cescotti report, but the report I know don't talk about an eyewitness testimony. It just says _"He [Sattler] climbed away, above the ongoing dogfight and dived into the action. Ofw Sattler shot one Tempest out of the circling dogfight, but continued to dive and hit the deck out of an altitude of about 2000m - there was no evidence of an attempted recovery."_
*These words could have been as well written (and in my opinion they was) just on the basis of German pilots tells after the fight, not on the basis of a personal direct testimony. And, in fact, here Cescotti doesn't say he witnessed that!*

My explanation on this point: having probably climbed themselves up to 2000m, *the other pilots (probably unaware of the entity of Sattler's delay) erroneously thought that he had followed them on an analogous path*, so their report on Sattler's crash involved a "dive from 2000m". 
*Not because they SAW him diving from 2000m, but because they THOUGHT he did that before crashing!*

And Cescotti just reported their (quite inaccurate) tells ...


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## Erich (Dec 17, 2008)

but did Cescotti report inadequately or did the 486th squadron pilots did not know for certain EXACTLY where the engagement took place 100 %, and that Clo is my point. as I said and will say it again there is some big problems with the German accts of JG 301 all through 1945, after action reports are lost, living pilots are now quoting from memory and we have the letters at hand, the JG 301 historian did not make duplicate copies or the items are conveniently lost.
As I mentioned we have his eye-witness testimony through letter and personal interview(s)

personally Sattler never got to good combat height, there is not enough evidence except from the vast array of reports that he ever did all from different German and French sources. I feel that there are some very important points missing in all this operation which did not take place at combat altitude for the Tank. the two 486th reports still do not make sense, if we are to allow one or the other for taking down Sattler.

Clo if you would like to believe this or not it is up to you, opened up a note here in my office.

Cescotti : I witnessed one air battle myself from the ground at Neustadt-Glewe Air Base on 14 April 1945............so Cescotti is lying ?

I think we both can assume yes or no

also several of you sources I am well aware of including N. Pages sturmgruppen site if you have looked through the other pages that are still on the net you will see that I have added photo content as well as text details through personal interviews of several that were mentioned on the web. Neil and I started that site together by the way.

Lorants comments are taken I have been in touch with him in the past along with R. Goyat. also being a long time member of LEMB and TOCH yes have read and copied accts and comments about Reschke s thoughts on his work and have made comments in this thread repeatedly.

let me do another add here which is critical both Stab./JG 301 and II./JG 301 with Dora-9's were based at the same airfield. though it is pointed out in the sources given by Clo-Clo with some good reads within, Cescotti was also Gruppenkommandeur of II./JG 301 not just the T.O. of the JG. In fact he just took over the C.O. position from Nölter who was killed on the 13th of April 45.


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## CloCloZ (Dec 17, 2008)

Erich said:


> but did Cescotti report inadequately or did the 486th squadron pilots did not know for certain EXACTLY where the engagement took place 100 %, and that Clo is my point.



Erich, I'll explain later why I think the German reports aren't trustable in many details, but the important thing is that *the REAL point is dictated by timings and distances coupled with Cescotti's own words, as I explained earlier*.

If the fight was "near Neustadt-Glewe", so near to allow Cescotti to clearly eyewitness it, times and distances say that Sattler (late in takeoff by several minutes) couldn't fly to reach battle the way Cescotti says.
And if it was near Ludwigslust, Cescotti couldn't have eyewitnessed it.
It's simpler than one could think about.
*You can't avoid maths here (nobody can ...).*

BTW, climbing at near the maximum rate of 3,445 ft/min at low alt using MW50, the first three TA152s could have climbed up to 2000 mt and more in two or three minutes, just the time needed to reach a battle zone about 8-10 km far from their airport, i.e. at about the same distance of Ludwigslust North-East area (whereas obviously Sattler should have flown on the deck to reach them when they dived at low-alt to attack Tempests ...).

So, the picture I've shown seems to be fully plausible with a battle about 8-10 km from the LW airfield, with the first three Ta152s steeply climbing to gain an advantage and the last one forced to fly at low-alt to reach them.
Time and distances matches with my picture and with Short and Shaw's reports, whereas don't match at all with Cescotti's report about Sattler's flight.
It's not my fault!  




Erich said:


> personally Sattler never got to good combat height, there is not enough evidence except from the vast array of reports that he ever did all from different German and French sources. I feel that there are some very important points missing in all this operation which did not take place at combat altitude for the Tank. the two 486th reports still do not make sense, if we are to allow one or the other for taking down Sattler.



Good combat height?
Well, given distances and times (again ...) the max height he could have reached would be about 3000 mt, very likely less, just as the other three comrades.
Of course, being him late etc. etc. he couldn't and quite likely flown at low-alt.
An that explains why Shaw spotted him "on the deck", as he wrote in his report.




Erich said:


> Cescotti : I witnessed one air battle myself from the ground at Neustadt-Glewe Air Base on 14 April 1945............so Cescotti is lying ?
> 
> I think we both can assume yes or no



Erich, did Reschke lied?
If no, then Cescotti is lying, because Reschke said that he was flying behind Sattler etc. etc. whereas it's impossible considering Sattler's starter failure at takeoff and so little time and distance involved on that scramble takeoff.
So, you can make a guess: who is lying? ...  

My opinion is that *AT LEAST* these old German pilots/officers have very often *bad memories* (it's likely I'll have the same or worse when I'll reach their age ...).
This seems evident with Reschke (and at first that wasn't my opinion, I was surprìsed ... or maybe not  ... when I read of Lorant's findings) but since even Cescotti's tale has some not credible (although fundamental) details I suspect that he has some problem too ...

And, yes, I think are *much more trustable* the RAF reports, written by pilot themselves just after the fight, than "tales" reported by veterans several dozens of year later ...

Maybe Cescotti mistaken that battle with another in another date, in any case justifying his (and Reschke's) inconsistencies it's not a problem of mine ...
I had to repeat: it's not just "my opinion", it's largely a math issue and neither Cescotti nor everybody else can avoid it, if they want to reaffirm their statements.
*Starting from that math issue* and realizing that German reports on the event were *unreliable* (being not consistent even between themselves!), after having reconsidered all the info I've found that the *"Shaw hypothesis"* for Sattler's crash, that includes a credible reconstruction of the German pilot's flight, is largely trustable.
It explains everything (timings, altitudes, chances ...) without the need to trot out a mysterious and presumed "failure" on Sattler's plane.

Add to this that there is a quite evident "mythicization" of Ta152H by German side, based in part on this event (but not just that), and you'll have another reason to take these German reports with much more than a grain of salt.

I think that Prof. Tank himself started it all ...
Remember Kurt Tank "mythical" and never proved escape from four (or six) Mustangs at just 7000m? 

And did you knew that the air combat kill/loss ratio of the "mythical" Ta152H ("the best piston fighter of WWII", someone says ...) is less than 2:1 (7 victories, 4 losses), although that plane seems to have been flown by *aces* almost for the *half* of all the pilots that are known to have ridden her?  

Considering that, I think that you should ask yourself some questions about the credibility of these "tales", that seem just perfect to deliberately create a myth.


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## Erich (Dec 17, 2008)

for your info I was able to see the log books from several stab Jg 301 pilots this past August, I have also been active in the LEMB TA thread you provided, you remember well the info produced on W. Loos that was known for many years under his very own tongue with his own Kameraden; even with Reschke telling me in writing about Jupps P-51 kill and then seeing Keils logbuch with the P-47 written in it do I believe in everything that is written by Reschke in his book ? ............. in a word NO, this is one of the fundamental reasons to get both sides, we can argue all we want or agree all we want, there are some very important issues that I explained earlier, Reschke was in hot pursuit with Mitchell as fact, he was not watching Sattler, as for having him ahead or behind is not the question behind the original posters question though you and I have spun off to a different tangent and am glad we did, it pauses me to think again about what really happened with the 1-2 486th Tempests and Sattler and I feel that Doras of II. gruppe were also in the neighborhood. believing that the 486th vet accounts as plain truth is twisted just like believing the LW reports as 100 % fact. wouldn't that be nice but we hav to take both and then try to sum up until we can get a better report from another eye witness. Cescotti again was not the only one watching the action from the field below.

again I say that not all of the LW engagement reports are at hand, the question is where are they, stolen ? no most likely buried as many JG accounts are, reason why not every JG has been covered in detail.

maybe we can in time through mapping and other ground personell accounts get this possibly solved. my question is why did not the Germans admit that Sattlers Tank was shot down in action ? and it is not some mythical do or die super human crate they had under their butts flying during 1945 either.

you might save your typing hands we are getting NO-where.

think about this the LW reports were given and submitted to the OKW but since the OKL was not approving LW shoot-down confirmations as fact after October 44 we will never know. Saying one thing that we have the 486th sq reports is true, what we do not have is the recollections in approved form from the LW pilots engaged this date. you cannot make a blank full on statment that the LW is just going by some faulty memory years later that makes little sense as being useful.

furthermore how does an a/c have a myth created by itself like the Ta 152H-0 and H-1. It wasn't the LW giving us this fantasy but Allied personell and the folks living today.


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## CloCloZ (Dec 17, 2008)

Erich said:


> Reschke was in hot pursuit with Mitchell as fact, he was not watching Sattler, as for having him ahead or behind is not the question behind the original posters question



I absolutely agree.
Not only Reschke but quite likely ALL the three German pilots (Aufhammer, Reschke and the third unnamed pilot) were fully aimed at Mitchell and Short!
For sure they were looking at Short and Mitchell's planes and nothing else!
And this explains a lot of the fight ...

Reschke probably saw Sattler falling just with the corner of the eye and for a split second and a certain distance. According to Shaw's report, flame didn't burst at once on the "FW190" and for sure (as I have explained) Sattler was already on the deck (just like Reschke) when he was hit (and certainly not at 2000m ...), so it wasn’t a long fall.
According to Shaw, flames initially developed on port side, then enveloped the plane. 
It’s quite possible that Reschke briefly looked at the undamaged starboard side of Sattler, then diverting attention to chase Mitchell and only later looking at the crash on the ground, so losing any chance to see the flames.
And this would explain his incredulity about enemy action as the cause of Sattler crash.
Since, after shooting down Sattler, Shaw and Brooker didn’t took part at any other fight (so they were probably returning home) it’s no surprise neither Reschke nor Cescotti didn’t mention them about the fight: all the German pilots were looking elsewhere ...

Reschke's own account made quite clear that three Ta152 pilots (himself, Aufhammer and the unnamed) directed their attention just towards the Short-Mitchell pair, ignoring that there were another pair near them. This seems to be confirmed by the fact that after Sattler crash all three remaining Ta152 chased Short, whereas nor Shaw neither Brooker were involved in further fights. Therefore, *Reschke and Short reports agree about this "fixation" of German pilots, so leaving Shaw creditably free, unnoticed and being able to take Sattler by surprise (just like RAF version suggests)*.
Being Sattler late he probably was in a better (and slightly detached) position to notice the Brooker-Shaw pair, at least at the last moment. He probably did, but was almost instantly killed by Shaw.

But, please note: saying that Reschke is wrong about his and Sattler relative position is just significant about Reschke's unreliability, *it doesn't mean that Cescotti is right in describing Sattler's flight!*
On the contrary, ahead or behind is not the important detail.

*The important detail is that Reschke saw Sattler crashing at the exact moment they started the attack, better, an instanct before the attack.*
This means that *Sattler had just reached the other three Ta152s* and to do that he had to flow on the deck (and didn't climbed up to 2000m).
So, Resckhe is wrong about Sattler's relative position in flight and Cescotti is wrong about Sattler's flight path ...
The only reliable report here seems to be the Shaw's one, which talks about an E/A on the deck!  




Erich said:


> I feel that Doras of II. gruppe were also in the neighborhood.



Maybe but ... *there were other FW190 losses the same day, on the same place at the same time?*
If yes, it could be an explanation that revives Sattler's failure hypothesis.
If not, I think that my hypotesis (which is the RAF one) stands still and strong.
Please remember that Brooker, Shaw, Short and Mitchell were all strafing the same target, so it's likely they were still close enough to became involved by the same Ta152s attack.



Erich said:


> believing that the 486th vet accounts as plain truth is twisted just like believing the LW reports as 100 % fact.



I disagree here.
Direct combat report are for sure much more reliables than faint "memories".
And, by the way, both Shaw and Short used their cine cameras, so there is an even lesser chance they could wrote an inaccurate report.



Erich said:


> furthermore how does an a/c have a myth created by itself like the Ta 152H-0 and H-1. It wasn't the LW giving us this fantasy but Allied personell and the folks living today.



Sorry, you are plainly wrong: it was Kurt Tank himself that started all this, during the war, as I'm going to explain.
And you'll easily find several German statements high-praising the plane, unluckily NOT supported by its combat scores ...



Erich said:


> my question is why did not the Germans admit that Sattlers Tank was shot down in action ? and it is not some mythical do or die super human crate they had under their butts flying during 1945 either.



Of course, I've thought about that.
And my answer is that likely they pushed on too much on this airplane mythization, since the end of the war and even before, to allow themselves to pull out now.
It's all a matter of reputation now, I suppose.

Since Ta152H had so limited use in real action and since Kurt Tank himself started the myth already at war time with the "Mustang tale" (I suppose mainly to justify his "bet" on Ta152 instead on improving the excellent FW190D), that plane "needed" at least a few bright victories against strong enemies.
The Ludwigslust dogfight is apparently a good occasion to praise plane performances against one of the most powerful allied fighters.
And saying that, at the end, the fight concluded just with a 1-1 score notwithstanding the German numerical superiority 4-vs-3 (with the German hit scored by an ace against a rookie and a Kommodore that really risked to be shoot down!) well ... it wouldn't be good to build the myth!  

I don’t know if this is true: _“Eric Brown stated the D-9 was the best. He met Tank after war, according to him Tank agreed that the Dora was best he should have concentrated on improving it instead of making 152.” _(Flying the 152 - World War II Forums) but I wouldn’t be surprised if it were.

So, maybe in the end even Tank dropped the myth.
What surprises me is that the myth goes on!
I think that is largely due to myth spreading during all these years, coupled by a good amount of ignorance by many.
Look at low-medium level performances and you'll find that FW190D, especially the late FW190D-11 and 13, were fantastic machines even when compared to Ta152H (which, after all, was designed as high-alt interceptor!).
And when I look at the poor kill/loss ratio of a plane flown by so many aces, I always wonder how it's possible that someone still depict it as "the best WWII piston fighter"!  

Don't get me wrong: I have high regard for FW series and I think that likely FW190D-13 could be the "overall best piston fighter of WWII".
I just run into this Ta152H myth (which I for myself fully trusted some years ago!) and examining the Ludwigslust event I started understanding its genesis and maybe its reasons.

And believe me, reading some statements and comparing that with reality is quite hilarious ...


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## Erich (Dec 17, 2008)

there still is some confusion in the Shaw, short account I just read them both on that singular page. also finding where the airfield existed and personell viewing the air battle with the naked eye and binocs. both 486th pilots mention the Ludwigslust area but were clearly over the airfield just south of Neustadt-Glewe so in reality this is NOT over Ludwiglust if we want to get to reality. I feel that Reschke is assuming a pilots eye and doe not have everything clear, and hopeful I will repeat this the last time we have NO report documented in full length on Willi's/Tempest duel just what he has written personally and done up in personal interviews. more and more now that I have found the mysterious airfield that Roderick was right there when the action took place. the victors of sorts of the battle for the 486th were able to have their report documented and scanned for public viewing the LW pilot(s) were not, you cannot make one without the other and base the whole air engagement just on one side of the story. you have brought up some interesting points and for that I thank you as I will rewrite my own feelings up on this and the battles for April 45 and JG 301 in the near future.

it would be of interest to have Willi and Short or Shaw be able to sit together and write and talk this whole mission out again. I have no clue if Short or Shaw are still living or not........

I still say this as the last time, JG 301 records are incomplete as Doras could of easily taken off for ground attack against Allied positions as this is what they were flying along with air defense missions as well against any Allied/Soviet A/C. why would the Stab fly alone and the II.gruppe stand still, again many unknowns that need to be resolved, and hopeful I will be able to do that over the next year plus .......


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## CloCloZ (Dec 17, 2008)

Sorry mate, you insist in not answering to the fundamental point: *it's PHYSICALLY impossible that Sattler flown as Cescotti says, if Sattler took off late even just by a few minutes!*
An even if Cescotti would have been able to observe perfectly the fight through binoculars or, on the contrary, if they were fighting above his head!

So, Cescotti report is *certainly* unreliable about the circumstances of Sattler "crash" (or downing ...).

You said _"we are getting NO-where"_.
Wrong.
YOU are getting nowhere!  (please excuse me for a little bit sarcasm, I couldn't resist ...  )

As for my part, I've found a clear logical/physical fault in Cescotti's report (or "tale" as by now I'm getting used to name it and, even more, Reschke's report too ...), for now I've reached a quite clear conclusion.
Although, of course, nothing is certain in this and similar cases and I could drop my hypothesis if there were good reasons ...


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## Erich (Dec 17, 2008)

~ I admit I am not letting everything of my own personal research out of the bag as it is for the book(s)

I go back again to where the Airfield is located and the report that Shaw/Short give, what you have placed on this site via your web sources is not all what Cescotti has written nor said about the event in question - Klar ? you were not there nor was I, the visible web-evidence you have given is not concrete clear.

all from me on the Sattler incident except, some new info will come out in time when the time permits and I get to it, will keep your math analysis handy as I may be going over to the area next year or two to do some more searching.

it's been fun


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## CloCloZ (Dec 17, 2008)

Good.
It would be nice to have more details about the event, although unluckily all those brave men of both sides are, at best, at the end of her life now ...  

My father, that died quite prematurely many years ago, fought that war, at first as ground mechanic in Italian aviation ("Regia Aeronautica") on African theater, later as partisan in Italy.
Every time I read of a veteran that has passed away I feel like another part of his time and his life has vanished and I regret I've asked him so few about those years ...


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## Erich (Dec 17, 2008)

Clo if interested check on Wayne Littles model of my cousins Fw190A-9, Weiße 2 on these forums, yes we lost familie from both sides in that war.


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## CloCloZ (Dec 17, 2008)

Erich said:


> Clo if interested check on Wayne Littles model of my cousins Fw190A-9, Weiße 2 on these forums, yes we lost familie from both sides in that war.



I've found the thread.
Terrible and moving!  

Let's make all we can do to avoid these things repeats, that someone says again they belong to a "superior" race, religion or political ideology and similar criminal bullshits and send men to kill and to die.
It's the best we can do to let them rest in peace.


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## claidemore (Dec 17, 2008)

Gotta say I agree with CloCloz's asessement of the combats on that date. 
BTW, thanks for sharing all your info CloCloz.


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## seesul (Dec 18, 2008)

I´ve found the arguments of both CloCloz and Erich very interesting...and thank you both for this reading.

Anyway, I´d like to know if someone knows the exact position of the Sattler´s and Mitchell´s crash sites. I don´t mean the crash sites positions written in the books and documents, but the REAL GPS localisation. That could help a lot and having that we could compare the distance from the airfield to the crash sites...

Think I´ll open a new thread with this question at luftarchiv.de this weekend. Let´s see, maybe some German forum member lives in surrounding area...

Thanks again friends!


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## seesul (Dec 18, 2008)

CloCloz,

maybe you could be interested in this:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/av...joe-owsianik-meeting-after-63-years-9298.html
Warbird Photo Album - Willi Reschke
Those moments I´ll never 4get...


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## CloCloZ (Dec 18, 2008)

seesul said:


> I´ve found the arguments of both CloCloz and Erich very interesting...and thank you both for this reading.
> 
> Anyway, I´d like to know if someone knows the exact position of the Sattler´s and Mitchell´s crash sites. I don´t mean the crash sites positions written in the books and documents, but the REAL GPS localisation. That could help a lot and having that we could compare the distance from the airfield to the crash sites...



I absolutely agree with you.
Knowing the exact position of crash sites could be paramount to determine which hypothesis is more credible.

In fact I had to frankly point out what I think is by far the weakest point in my hypothesis: Shaw wrote that he was _"diving to attack Met on a road about 10 miles east of Ludwigslust"_ when he spotted Sattler.
Did he mean that he was already 10 miles far from Ludwigslust?
If yes, he likely could have been too far from the battle zone.
Or did he simply mean, as I think is likely, he and Brooker were starting a strafing dive along a road that runs toward south-east of the city up till ten miles?

My guess is that they were passing east of Ludwigslust ahead of the other couple (Short and Mitchell were probably going south too, after having strafed the railway north of the city; in fact the Germans, coming from Neustadt-Glewe at N-W, attacked them from their left and rear side), heading S-E in search of ground targets, likely on the road that at present (and I think probably in 1945 too) runs south-east alongside the railway from Ludwigslust to Grabow up to Karstadt (remember that according to RAF 2nd TAF book the mission targets were the railways).
If Brooker and Shaw would have been already positioned on a final target at ten miles, the two couples could have been separated by about that large distance, but if Brooker and Shaw were just beginning the dive to fly over the road at low level (as it seems from Shaw’s report) and/or Short and Mitchell were already south of Ludwigslust following the other couple, things could be very different.
In the latter case Brooker and Shaw (notably Shaw) could have been much nearer to the other couple, maybe just a few miles (remember that at 450 km/h even 5 or 6 miles could be covered in a little more than 1 minute).
In this case is more likely that Shaw, while looking around to cover his No.1, could have spotted Sattler N-E of his position.
In this scenery, Brooker and Shaw Tempests were south-east of Ludwigslust, whereas Sattler was coming from north-east and, trying to join his comrades, was directing towards the other pair (Short and Mitchell) which was probably at a slightly northern position.
The behavior of Sattler’s presumed plane, as later described by Shaw, reinforces my hypothesis: in fact Shaw's report suggests that the German pilot was turning alternatively to W and to E, just like he was trying to spot where his comrades were.

But all this is, of course, highly speculative.
So, knowing the exact position of the crashes would be of great importance.


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## 109ROAMING (Dec 18, 2008)

Interesting stuff CloCloZ and Erich!


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## Erich (Dec 18, 2008)

Roman remember what Reschke says about Mitchel and Sattlers crash sites and where buried this needs to be brought up if anyone has any news.....maybe not. As the remains most likely were removed and returned. just be aware that Reschkes work is going to be quoted almost word for word as it has been done in the past on luftarchiv. Even with some inaccuracies thanks GOD Reschke did put his own work into print as we would not have a base for the German side of things and the gap for Mitchells demise as well as Sattlers would not be known or even more in the dark than ever before. How it would of been of course great if Sattler had a living wingman to tell us or at least record at the time the direction and altitude that he/they would of been travelling as a fact.

I am checking another area of interest out right now with another veteran account


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