# Storage in ww2 fighters?



## Browning303 (Jan 17, 2018)

Hi guys, I was at an airshow a couple of years ago and watched a Hawker Hurricane land. The pilot got out and unscrewed a panel on the wing, roughly where I guess they would have accessed the gun battery on a real combat hurricane. He pulled out a small bag then screwed the panel back on, so I guess he was using it as a storage compartment as of course there is no armament on modern ww2 aircraft that are still flying.

It got me thinking, does anybody know if ww2 era fighters ever had a small storage compartment for a pilot to put a bag in? For example, when moving from being based at one airfield to another, could a pilot take any personal possessions with him or did all possessions have to be brought separately? I know there could be many issues, for example weight distribution. But I know from cutaways of aircraft that the fuselage behind the pilot was often fairly hollow (thinking especially of hurricane).

I've had a google but can't seem to find any answers. My gut feeling is that this was not provided on any fighter, they were built entirely for one purpose, not for comfort. I'm sure I read somewhere that a german pilot would take his dog with him in the cockpit of his 109 when on non-combat flights. Perhaps pilots put a small bag on their lap or at their feet but then from a safety point of view this seems like a bad idea!

Any thoughts would be interesting? Cheers.


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## Airframes (Jan 17, 2018)

On the Spitfire and Hurricane, a small bag could be wedged into the radio compartment. The Bf109 had a storage facility, again accessed via the radio hatch, for the carriage of survival equipment for desert use, which consisted of a survival and first aid pack, extra water, and a Kar98K rifle.

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## fubar57 (Jan 17, 2018)

Behind the pilots head on the Bf-109, there was a stowage compartment.





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## Peter Gunn (Jan 17, 2018)

The P-38 apparently had a storage/baggage compartment in the rear right boom:

LiTOT: P-38 design analysis

*"Aft Booms*
The aft booms are of semi-monocoque stressed skin type, and extend from the forward boom to the empennage boom. Carrying the coolant radiator structures on either side of each boom. Attachment of the aft booms at both ends is done with screws and stop nuts through the skin and webs, and by bolts through two fittings forged from 14ST aluminum that mate with fittings on the forward boom channels. Coolant radiator frames are supported by brackets attached to the formers. *A baggage compartment is located in the right-hand aft boom."*


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## Browning303 (Jan 17, 2018)

Thank you for the quick replies guys! Very interesting! Had no idea a rifle could be carried. Was a Kar98 routinely put on board during combat sorties?


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## mexchiwa (Jan 17, 2018)

190s had storage in the rear fuselage - used to evacuate personnel on more than one occasion...

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## Browning303 (Jan 17, 2018)

It was possible to have a passenger in the back of a 109??


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## Airframes (Jan 17, 2018)

I don't think so in the Bf109, but the FW190 had room for a passenger in an emergency, and was used on at least one occasion to carry a film cameraman, to film a formation in flight.
As far as I know, the Kar98K was only carried on operations in desert conditions. The small locker behind the seat in the Bf109 was designed to hold the engine inertia start crank handle, but often carried the pilot's dress cap too.


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## Shortround6 (Jan 17, 2018)

On a restored P-40. Many American fighters of the 30s had a small baggage compartment for a few personal items when the aircraft were deployed to a different airfield. Given size of US it could be days for ground transport to catch up.


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## fubar57 (Jan 17, 2018)

Trying to find a diagram I saw that showed how to carry 2 passengers in a Fw190


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## Airframes (Jan 17, 2018)

Here's the film cameraman in the FW190.

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## fubar57 (Jan 17, 2018)

Still looking but found this...

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## Crimea_River (Jan 17, 2018)

I believe there is anecdotal evidence of retreating 109 JG's carrying one extra person but I'm going by memory only.

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## Graeme (Jan 17, 2018)

Not a classic WW2 aircraft but there was a large "baggage" space accessible from the starboard side behind the cockpit on the Seversky P-35.
The aerofiles site shows one P-35 fitted out with a buddy seat...

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## fastmongrel (Jan 17, 2018)

All Spitfires and Hurricanes had a cockpit Teacup holder and Ashtray. The prototypes also had a Teapot but it was removed when the seatback armour was fitted.

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## Greyman (Jan 17, 2018)

Every lady needs a handbag, even the Spitfire.


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## BiffF15 (Jan 17, 2018)

Looks like a body rolled up in a carpet...


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## GregP (Jan 17, 2018)

You could put a person in back of a Bf 109, but he had to crawl forward to minimize CG changes and sit as close to right behind the pilot as possible. I've been inside our Hispano Ha.1112 and it is tight, but I made it in. We went inside to move hydraulics from engine compartment to behind the pilot for safety reasons. If the oil isn't near heat, it probably won't catch fire!


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## airminded88 (Jan 17, 2018)

Franz Stigler, the Bf-109 pilot immortalized in the annals of history for letting pilot Charlie Brown and his crew escape the continent in a badly damaged in B-17 is said to have squeezed his mechanic in the aft section of his 109 when his fighting unit was retreating from North Africa.


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## pbehn (Jan 17, 2018)

fastmongrel said:


> All Spitfires and Hurricanes had a cockpit Teacup holder and Ashtray. The prototypes also had a Teapot but it was removed when the seatback armour was fitted.


Long term, the short range resulting from the lack of tea pot was a big drawback on the Spitfire. PR versions had a "Goblin teas maid" installed. BTW Spitfires had a cup and saucer while Hurricanes had an enamel mug.

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Jan 17, 2018)

Airframes said:


> On the Spitfire and Hurricane, a small bag could be wedged into the radio compartment. The Bf109 had a storage facility, again accessed via the radio hatch, for the carriage of survival equipment for desert use, which consisted of a survival and first aid pack, extra water, and a Kar98K rifle.


Being a gun collector, I sometimes see in the RIA auction brochures (Rock Island Armory- in my State) Luftwaffe survival weapons- a Drilling, usually a 12 gauge double shotgun with a metric rifle cal. barrel-in an aluminum case, with ammo, cleaning kit, etc. Krieghoff, Sauer, other makers. It is also well know that "Fat-Boy" Goering was an avid hunter and gun collector. Where would a pilot ever find room for such a bulky item, and how would he hold it while bailing out and deploying his 'chute?? And why would he need it if bailing out over German controlled land below. Most Luftwaffe pilots carried a sidearm with extra magazines, usually Luger pistole '08- possibly a Walther P-38, both in 9mm parabellum. Can anyone shed some light on this? Thanks, Hansie


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## Graeme (Jan 17, 2018)

Browning303 said:


> But I know from cutaways of aircraft that the fuselage behind the pilot was often fairly hollow



No.96 - Equipment/*baggage *compartment door. Dewoitine D.520...

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## MIflyer (Jan 17, 2018)

The P-38 did have a baggage compartment in the rear of the boom. There was even an episode of Black Sheep where they showed it.

The P-35 had a large rear baggage compartment because it was derived from a 2 seat airplane. Seversky even had seat installed there so his wife could accompany him on demonstration flights. If a P-35 flipped over on its back the pilot could release his seat back and escape through the baggage compartment. The P-43 and P-47 were able to accommodate a turbosupercharger in the aft fuselage by using that extra space.

And old movie, Flight Command, featured F3F's, and at one point they landed on the beach, removed the radio transmitter from the compartment behind the cockpit, and loaded an injured man in there to fly him back to the base. The F4F had enough room behind the cockpit and a hatch big enough to get someone in there but I don't know if it was ever done.

Hans Ulrich Rudel described flying an FW-190 with I think two Germans in the aft fuselage to escape the Soviets. 

Jets used baggage pods. The T-33A had a baggage pod as did most jet fighter type aircraft; a friend of mine lost his clothes when the pod fell off soon after takeoff. When they grounded their F-102's at Thule one unit worked all night to fit a .50 cal in a T-33A baggage pod so the could have at least one armed airplane available. One night we worked until the wee hours to repair some F-105 auxillary fuel tank pressure regulators to get the Wild Weasel unit at George AFB back in the air so they could deploy to Europe. They flew them in to us in an F-4 baggage pod.


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## Airframes (Jan 18, 2018)

The Kar98K and survival kit in the Bf109s flown in desert conditions, i.e. North Africa, were intended for use in the case of a forced landing. Of course, if the pilot had to bail out, then he couldn't take these with him, as they were stored in the rear fuselage, some 6.5 feet aft of the cockpit !
Luftwaffe bomber and other large aircraft aircrew, normally carried the Luger P08, sometimes, later in the war, the Walther P38, whereas the standard sidearm for fighter pilots was the Walther PPK.

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## swampyankee (Jan 18, 2018)

pbehn said:


> Long term, the short range resulting from the lack of tea pot was a big drawback on the Spitfire. PR versions had a "Goblin teas maid" installed. BTW Spitfires had a cup and saucer while Hurricanes had an enamel mug.


Since you bring the up mugs, did any of these aircraft carry thundermugs? Some of those missions could be pretty long....


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## Shortround6 (Jan 18, 2018)

pbehn said:


> Long term, the short range resulting from the lack of tea pot was a big drawback on the Spitfire. PR versions had a "Goblin teas maid" installed. BTW Spitfires had a cup and saucer while Hurricanes had an enamel mug.


Gladiators, Defiants and Blenheims got tin cups, dented.

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## fubar57 (Jan 18, 2018)

Didn't the P-51 have a "relief" tube?

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## fubar57 (Jan 18, 2018)



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## fubar57 (Jan 18, 2018)

From "I was a P-51 Fighter Pilot in WWII"


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## fubar57 (Jan 18, 2018)

From "Fighter Group:The 352nd "Blue-Nosed Bastards" in World War II" By Lt Col Jay A. Stout

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## MIflyer (Jan 18, 2018)

Famous story about the time an F-106A did a little stunt flying around a B-52, pulled up next to the bomber and said, "How did you like that?" 

The bomber pilot replied, "You think that was so great, watch this."

15 Min later the bomber pilot radioed, "How did you like that?"

The 106 pilot replied, "Like what? I didn't see anything."

The bomber pilot replied, "I shut down two engines, went in the back, and took a crap."

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## Peter Gunn (Jan 18, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> From "Fighter Group:The 352nd "Blue-Nosed Bastards" in World War II" By Lt Col Jay A. Stout
> 
> View attachment 479626



So, don't want to follow the flight in front of you too close then...

On a more serious note, what happens if last nights dinner decides it's time to exit?


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## MIflyer (Jan 18, 2018)

Relief tubes were notorious for freezing up - and backing up. On jets they went to "Piddle Packs," plastic bags with sponges in them, that featured a kind of tube coming off the top. We had a type of piddle pack in our office at Tinker AFB that had been a subject of complaints. I can well imagine why. Anything larger in diameter than, say, a Sharpie marker, would have had hard time getting into that tube. What we were doing with the thing I have no idea. We did cockpit air conditioning and pressurization, oxygen systems, G suits. etc. I have no idea what that had to do with piddle packs.

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## BiffF15 (Jan 18, 2018)

Peter Gunn said:


> So, don't want to follow the flight in front of you too close then...
> 
> On a more serious note, what happens if last nights dinner decides it's time to exit?



Dinner is a tougher one to get rid of. I know guys who have done it, but it's not easy and can take quite a while. Better off just landing...


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## Peter Gunn (Jan 18, 2018)

^^^ Yeah, the inquisitive part of the brain says, "huh, I wonder how..." and the other 90% of grey matter yells "TMI..." and shuts down.

Although in a Mustang 400 miles from home... yeah, that could be a problem.

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## BiffF15 (Jan 18, 2018)

I can tell you that the guys who have it the worst are the U-2 bro's. Way too many hours airborne, and you can't use a piddle pack...


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## Peter Gunn (Jan 18, 2018)

BiffF15 said:


> I can tell you that the guys who have it the worst are the U-2 bro's. Way too many hours airborne, and you can't use a piddle pack...



Ouch...


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## MIflyer (Jan 18, 2018)

And that is why the SR-71 and U-2 pilots were very careful what they ate before the mission. Steak and eggs was preferred, low residue, high protein. We used to joke that before some meetings we were in we needed to use the same approach.

I recall reading where a pilot ferrying a P-39 to the Soviets across Alaska brought along a ham sandwich. After cruising along for a while he took a bite out of the sandwich, decided it was stale, rolled down the window and tossed it out. The sandwich got sucked into the carb air intake behind the cockpit and that was the end of that flight! Take a look at the P-63 pilot's handbook and you'll see that they gave a lot of thought to alternate air intake paths for the engine.


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## Crimea_River (Jan 18, 2018)

Stowage for 4 thermos bottles for tea, coffee, or soup on a Mosquito.

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## Crimea_River (Jan 18, 2018)

And the "Urinary Container" in a Mosquito:

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## vikingBerserker (Jan 18, 2018)

I believe relief tubes were pretty common on most us military aircraft pre ww2.

IIRC Eric Hartmann smuggled somebody in his Bf-109


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## MIflyer (Jan 18, 2018)

Here are some shots showing how they tucked away spare parts and tools into the nooks and crannies of a P-39. Not a lot of room in that airplane.

I note that while originally the radios were supposed to be located behind the engine but photos of P-39's in the Pacific clearly show some kind of radio gear under the Plexiglas area of the canopy above the engine and behind the pilot.

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## fastmongrel (Jan 18, 2018)

pbehn said:


> Long term, the short range resulting from the lack of tea pot was a big drawback on the Spitfire. PR versions had a "Goblin teas maid" installed. BTW Spitfires had a cup and saucer while Hurricanes had an enamel mug.



No point wasting the Royal Doulton on some pleb who never even went to Oxbridge.

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## herman1rg (Jan 18, 2018)

Then there was the Ball-bearing Run the nickname of the war-time _Stockholmsruten_ flight between Stockholm and Leuchers, Scotland between 1939 and 1945 where passengers were sometimes carried in the bomb bay of Mosquitos


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## MIflyer (Jan 18, 2018)

Yes, and those BOAC Mossie passengers did not even have a chair. Just an oxygen mask and a small light. And I understand the flight attendents were unattentive and the movie selection horrid.

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## Browning303 (Jan 18, 2018)

Thank you everybody for your informative replies and pictures. This has been my first thread since joining the forum and I'm really impressed with the response to my question!


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## fubar57 (Jan 18, 2018)

Sorta got side-tracked with bodily functions but that's what we do best

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## MIflyer (Jan 18, 2018)

What did the BOAC Mossie passengers do about bodily functions?


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## Hardrada55 (Jan 18, 2018)

Browning303 said:


> Thank you for the quick replies guys! Very interesting! Had no idea a rifle could be carried. Was a Kar98 routinely put on board during combat sorties?


Supposedly only in North Africa Bf-109 with Rifle


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## KiwiBiggles (Jan 18, 2018)

MIflyer said:


> What did the BOAC Mossie passengers do about bodily functions?


I dunno. How well did a Mosquito's bomb bay doors close?

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Jan 18, 2018)

Airframes said:


> The Kar98K and survival kit in the Bf109s flown in desert conditions, i.e. North Africa, were intended for use in the case of a forced landing. Of course, if the pilot had to bail out, then he couldn't take these with him, as they were stored in the rear fuselage, some 6.5 feet aft of the cockpit !
> Luftwaffe bomber and other large aircraft aircrew, normally carried the Luger P08, sometimes, later in the war, the Walther P38, whereas the standard sidearm for fighter pilots was the Walther PPK.


Thanks Airframes-- I believe the Walther Polizi Pistole Kurz was/is in 7.65mm, whereas the Luger Pistole 08 and the Walther P38 were both in 9mm Parabellum. All fine weapons, I have a Luger 08 made by Kreighoff 1939- with the Luftwaffe Eagle Waffenamt markings, holster, spare magazine and stripping tool. It is the only Luger in my modest collection. But in all honesty, a friend's Walther P38 is more accurate on the range we frequently use, and a way less complex design to field strip and service.

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## Airframes (Jan 18, 2018)

You're welcome, and yes, the PPK was , and is, 7.65mm. For such a short weapon, it's pretty accurate too. I used to have one, and a P.38, both WW2 vintage, but they had to go some years ago, due to the UK firearms laws.

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Jan 19, 2018)

Airframes said:


> You're welcome, and yes, the PPK was , and is, 7.65mm. For such a short weapon, it's pretty accurate too. I used to have one, and a P.38, both WW2 vintage, but they had to go some years ago, due to the UK firearms laws.


From your kind response, I surmise you live in the UK-- Home to Ian Fleming and his character "James Bond"?? I believe that gentleman also carried a Walther PPK-- I never have owned a PPK, but a friend has one, and I am sure he will let me shoot it at the range. FWIW, the State where I live is also very restrictive on ownership and carrying of handguns, exceptions being the LE community. So I can sympathize with the restrictions the UK seems to have on handguns. Such is the world we must live in now-a-days. Hansie


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## MIflyer (Jan 19, 2018)

Here's a story I read a while back.

A USAF pilot was doing a cross country in an F-80 in the early 1950's. His wife told him that the base he was going to was right near her aunt's home and to take a large fishbowl to her; she would come out to the base and pick it up. There was no place to put the fishbowl in the F-80 so he stuck it behind the pilot's seat, under the bubble canopy.

Enroute, his radio failed and with darkness approaching and the weather deteriorating he diverted to a SAC base. He landed and was greeted by heavily armed Security Police who leveled guns at him and demanded to know who he was and what he was doing there (ever been chased down by SP's on a SAC base? I have.). In view of the fact that he was flying a properly marked USAF airplane he thought their reaction a bit absurd, he removed his helmet, reached back, got the fishbowl, put it over his head and said, "I'm from Mars and there are more of us coming." 

His commander had to come get him out of jail.

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## pbehn (Jan 19, 2018)

Hansie Bloeckmann said:


> From your kind response, I surmise you live in the UK-- Home to Ian Fleming and his character "James Bond"?? I believe that gentleman also carried a Walther PPK-- I never have owned a PPK, but a friend has one, and I am sure he will let me shoot it at the range. FWIW, the State where I live is also very restrictive on ownership and carrying of handguns, exceptions being the LE community. So I can sympathize with the restrictions the UK seems to have on handguns. Such is the world we must live in now-a-days. Hansie


Things got really nasty in the Battle of Britain when it was found out that Germans sometimes had guns.

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## Airframes (Jan 19, 2018)

Yes, very unsporting of them, what !
_And _crash-landing in fields, without first asking permission - it's just not cricket old boy !!

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Jan 19, 2018)

Airframes said:


> Yes, very unsporting of them, what !
> _And _crash-landing in fields, without first asking permission - it's just not cricket old boy !!


Does make me wonder if Rudolph Hess was armed when he parachuted out of the cloud cover and landed in a farmer's field in Scotland. The story I read had him captured by a farmer wielding a pitchfork. If he planned to surrender to the Allied Forces then, would he then leave his sidearm back in Germany. Can anyone elaborate on this? Was he flying a ME-109 ? If he bailed out, where did the aircraft land?


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## Airframes (Jan 19, 2018)

He was flying a Bf110, with drop tanks,the aircraft crashing not far from where Hess himself landed. The remains of his aircraft (rear fuselage) are on display at the IWM, Duxford, UK, He was not armed, and neither was the (new) Bf110.
I have a fairly long chapter on his flight and arrival, in the book 'Failed to Return', and another book solely on his incarceration and interrogation - quite interesting.

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Jan 19, 2018)

Airframes said:


> He was flying a Bf110, with drop tanks,the aircraft crashing not far from where Hess himself landed. The remains of his aircraft (rear fuselage) are on display at the IWM, Duxford, UK, He was not armed, and neither was the (new) Bf110.
> I have a fairly long chapter on his flight and arrival, in the book 'Failed to Return', and another book solely on his incarceration and interrogation - quite interesting.


I shall try to get a copy of your book(s) as I believe Rudolph Hess and his "escape from the Third Reich" was the first of many challenges faced by Hitler and Goebbels, to cover up to the German people all the "Rats leaving the sinking ship"--later followed by disasters in Russia, Italy and Normandy. I wonder if Hitler tried to "abduct" Hess and bring him back to Berlin- most likely to his death?


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## Crimea_River (Jan 19, 2018)

Going a little OT here....

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## Crimea_River (Jan 19, 2018)

Going a little OT here....

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Jan 19, 2018)

Crimea_River said:


> Going a little OT here....


You are correct, and the blame rests with me, not with the member who graciously replied to my query. I apologize, it began with my deep interest in firearms, and the listing of the Luftwaffe M30 survival Drilling on a RIA publication. I wondered how anything so bulky as that cased weapon with ammo, etc. could fit in the cockpit of a ME bf-109 or a FW 190. I was also curious as to how a pilot getting set to bail out could manage to hang onto the handle of the gun case (aluminum _ believe) and escape the cockpit -- If you feel it would be better for the true nature of this thread, I would be most happy to go back and edit out my responses, even that of Rudolph Hess, and perhaps, start that as a new and separate thread. Thank you for your most accurate comment- no offense taken. Hansie_

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## fubar57 (Jan 19, 2018)

No problems Hansie. Some threads lose topic after the first page. This one went from carrying a pilots personal belongings in a fighter aircraft to depositing body fluids in 2 pages

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## pbehn (Jan 19, 2018)

Hansie Bloeckmann said:


> I shall try to get a copy of your book(s) as I believe Rudolph Hess and his "escape from the Third Reich" was the first of many challenges faced by Hitler and Goebbels, to cover up to the German people all the "Rats leaving the sinking ship"--later followed by disasters in Russia, Italy and Normandy. I wonder if Hitler tried to "abduct" Hess and bring him back to Berlin- most likely to his death?


He just discredited him, by the time all the birds came home to roost I doubt if the average German remembered much about a guy who left in 1941 when Germany was winning in most respects. The whole Hess story is a war time enigma.

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## pbehn (Jan 19, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> No problems Hansie. Some threads lose topic after the first page. This one went from carrying a pilots personal belongings in a fighter aircraft to depositing body fluids in 2 pages


I consider my bodily fluids to be personal belongings.

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Jan 19, 2018)

pbehn said:


> I consider my bodily fluids to be personal belongings.


As do I..I can only wonder if each pilot had his own "personal funnel"- ditto each crew member on a B-17??


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## Crimea_River (Jan 19, 2018)

No need to delete posts. I'm not a moderator but sometimes act like one, and I know that I probably shouldn't. But then I do lots of things that I shouldn't do....

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Jan 19, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> No problems Hansie. Some threads lose topic after the first page. This one went from carrying a pilots personal belongings in a fighter aircraft to depositing body fluids in 2 pages


Thanks for that, FB57. I'm a "rookie" here, and want to follow the rules. I can say that I have gained in my knowledge of WW2 aircraft from the many informative threads on this site. Hansie


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## fubar57 (Jan 19, 2018)

I came here for the buffet and never left

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Jan 19, 2018)

Crimea_River said:


> No need to delete posts. I'm not a moderator but sometimes act like one, and I know that I probably shouldn't. But then I do lots of things that I shouldn't do....


Thank you CR. I have had some great fishing in Canada, my favorite being the Bow River in Calgary. You don't see any litter up there, and the fishing is fantastic, let alone the scenery.


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## pbehn (Jan 19, 2018)

pbehn said:


> I consider my bodily fluids to be personal belongings.


Well I did before the vasectomy. Then I didn't care. 

Just joking.

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## Graeme (Jan 19, 2018)

No.71 - *Baggage* Compartment.
Heinkel He-51...

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## fubar57 (Jan 19, 2018)

Back on track, nice one Graeme

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## fastmongrel (Jan 20, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> I came here for the buffet and never left



I came here for the beer and I am still waiting for my pint


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## fastmongrel (Jan 20, 2018)

Spitfires on the Club Runs to Malta flying off carriers must have carried some personal kit or the pilots would have had nothing when they landed in Malta. Does anyone know what and where it was carried.

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## swampyankee (Jan 20, 2018)

MIflyer said:


> Yes, and those BOAC Mossie passengers did not even have a chair. Just an oxygen mask and a small light. And I understand the flight attendents were unattentive and the movie selection horrid.


Nils Bohr was flown from Sweden to Britain in a “passenger” Mosquito. The oxygen mask didn’t fit and the world came close to having him brain damaged by hypoxia.

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## MIflyer (Jan 20, 2018)

Nils Bohr's WWII experience was quite a story in itself. His country, Denmark, signed a non-aggression pact with Germany before the war. The initial German occupation was mild. Then the Gestapo moved in and demanded all the Jewish people in Denmark be turned over to them. Nils Bohr refused to leave until the Jews of Denmark were rescued, and about 95% of them were, taken to Sweden. The Germans would not mess with Sweden because they were heavily dependent on Swedish supplies of iron ore, most of which were transported through Norway.

There is an interesting book about the WWII Resistance in Denmark, "The Sixth Floor."

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## pbehn (Jan 20, 2018)

swampyankee said:


> Nils Bohr was flown from Sweden to Britain in a “passenger” Mosquito. The oxygen mask didn’t fit and the world came close to having him brain damaged by hypoxia.


The must have had a system as described by Bill, when Bohr did not respond the pilot descended to a safe altitude, Bohr remarked that he slept like a baby.


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## Browning303 (Jan 20, 2018)

fastmongrel said:


> Spitfires on the Club Runs to Malta flying off carriers must have carried some personal kit or the pilots would have had nothing when they landed in Malta. Does anyone know what and where it was carried.


Great question, I'd love to know the answer to this as well


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## pbehn (Jan 20, 2018)

Browning303 said:


> Great question, I'd love to know the answer to this as well


With the state of Malta when they arrived I don't think having a change of underwear would be high on the list of complaints.

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## Airframes (Jan 21, 2018)

I'd have to read the book again, but I seem to remember that, for the long flight to Malta, the cannons were removed from the Spits, and I believe a very small bag of essentials was carried in the cannon bay of one wing.

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## Browning303 (Jan 21, 2018)

I read First Light by Geoffrey Wellum last year and I'm sure he wrote that once the guns were removed from the wings the space was filled with much needed boxes of cigarettes for the people on Malta. I don't recall him saying anything about taking personal possessions however.


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## MIflyer (Jan 21, 2018)

An article I will try to attach says that for Malta Spitfire two of the four 20MM cannon and all 4 .303 machine guns were removed to lighten the aircraft for the ferry mission and increase performance.


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## Browning303 (Jan 21, 2018)

Didn't later spitfires only have 2 20mm cannon anyway? Plus the 4 machine guns.


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## pbehn (Jan 21, 2018)

Browning303 said:


> Didn't later spitfires only have 2 20mm cannon anyway? Plus the 4 machine guns.


That is what I always understood. Four cannon was possible but the outside two could not be heated adequately. With the number of machines damaged on the ground I guess they had many cannons and MGs anyway.

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Jan 21, 2018)

Airframes said:


> I'd have to read the book again, but I seem to remember that, for the long flight to Malta, the cannons were removed from the Spits, and I believe a very small bag of essentials was carried in the cannon bay of one wing.


Wonder what the wing load factor was between a Spit w/o MG and or cannons, and the same aircraft with 2 cannon and 2 .303 Vickers MG's wing mounted. No problem with firing through a prop rotation, as with nacelle mounted ordnance, but just curious as to affect wing mounted guns had on lift, climb, roll and over-all performance in combat maneuvers??


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## Airframes (Jan 21, 2018)

Not sure about wing loading or lift without checking,, but the weight saving certainly helped with overall performance and cruise economy.
BTW, the machine guns were .303 Browning, not Vickers.

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## Greyman (Jan 21, 2018)

AFDU testing of 4-cannon Spit:
The Spitfire Vc, with a full war load, was flown to a height of 30,000 feet. As this height the rate of climb was below 1,000 feet per minute and the aircraft became exceedingly sloppy. Although the rate of climb at 28,000 feet was approximately 1,000 feet per minute, the manoevrability was not good and it is thought that it could be easily out-manoeuvred by the Me.109F.

EDIT:
Vc with 4 x 20mm was approx 360 lb more than a Vb
Vc with 2 x 20mm and 4 x .303 was approx 112 lb more than a Vb


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## Shortround6 (Jan 21, 2018)

From Spitfire performance
Spitfire Mk IX Weights and Loading
A weight chart showing weights for two 20mm cannon and 4 machine guns and 8 machine guns.
two 20mm cannon with 120rpg weigh 440lbs (294lbs for the guns and 150lbs for the ammo)
The four .303 guns weigh 112.5 lbs and 1400 rounds of ammo weigh 93lbs total 205.5lbs.
This does not include any additions or subtractions due to guns heaters or other equipment. 
There is going to be a small drag penalty due to the _extra_ 20mm gun barrels. Loss of lift is going to be very small. 
Change in roll gets very difficult as the weights of the .303 guns and ammo are number of feet further out from center than the 20mm guns. 
I don't believe anybody contemplated using four cannon _plus_ 4 machine guns in the same plane.

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Jan 21, 2018)

Airframes said:


> Not sure about wing loading or lift without checking,, but the weight saving certainly helped with overall performance and cruise economy.
> BTW, the machine guns were .303 Browning, not Vickers.


You are correct. The Browning (1919A-1?) in the British .303 were used. Perhaps Vickers were used in WW1 British aircraft?


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## Greyman (Jan 21, 2018)

Vickers fixed guns and Lewis free guns were used from WWI to the beginning or WWII. By the time the second war started the Vickers V and Lewis III had almost entirely been replaced by the Browning and Vickers 'K' respectively.

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## Hansie Bloeckmann (Jan 21, 2018)

Greyman said:


> Vickers fixed guns and Lewis free guns were used from WWI to the beginning or WWII. By the time the second war started the Vickers V and Lewis III had almost entirely been replaced by the Browning and Vickers 'K' respectively.


Thanks-- was the Lewis gun a machine gun with a long and heavy barrel jacket, as judged by the few I may have seen in military periodicals-??- and was it fed from a top-mounted round drum magazine? Apparently Browning had a contract to produce air-cooled machine guns for the RAF in .303 British cal. As the Germans took over Liege when they occupied Belgium, I wonder where they were produced from 1939 to 1945?

I believe that in America, the Browning: 1911-A-1, the various MG's and the BAR were produced by many US firearms manufactures, including the Springfield Armory, Winchester Repeating Arms, Colt, Remington, Ithaca, perhaps others as well.


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## Shortround6 (Jan 21, 2018)

For aircraft use they got rid of the Barrel jacket, they also designed and issued a much thicker magazine that held 97 rounds instead of the 47 rounds in the 'flat' magazine.
BSA actually built most of the Brownings used by British aircraft in WW II. Not sure if Vickers held the licence, but BSA did the actual production. I don't believe the British bought any guns from FN except perhaps a few trial models. British modified the mode of operation, to fire open bolt to prevent cook offs.

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## Greyman (Jan 21, 2018)

The Air Ministry purchased manufacturing licence from Colt (.30 Calibre M.2). I don't think FN came into the mix at all.

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## Greyman (Jan 21, 2018)

Shortround6 said:


> I don't believe anybody contemplated using four cannon _plus_ 4 machine guns in the same plane.



I've read about that being used over Malta. I would imagine not very often.

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## Peter Gunn (Jan 22, 2018)

Crimea_River said:


> No need to delete posts. I'm not a moderator but sometimes act like one, and I know that I probably shouldn't. *But then I do lots of things that I shouldn't do*....



Yeah yeah, cry me a river pal...


Wait...

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## Crimea_River (Jan 22, 2018)



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## Peter Gunn (Jan 23, 2018)

I've been waiting a long time to use that line with you...

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## dedalos (Jan 24, 2018)

Browning303 said:


> It was possible to have a passenger in the back of a 109??[/QUOT
> 
> According to Helmut Lipfert, during the evacuation of Crimea in May 1944, each Bf 109G6 of his unit (II/JG52) leaving for Romania had the head armor removed and a second pilot somehow "stored" in the impossible small space. He himself escaped that way. The 109 was completely out of trim and the landing very difficult. The same person reports that earlier in the russian campaign , they often carried bottles of wine in the radio compartment. A pilot even carried a barrel of beer using the bomb rack , with very little ground clearance
> The Fw 190 quite often carried a second person. I have read that it was possible up to 3 persons. Gerhard Thyben, of 7/JG54 , even scored a victory with his mechanic in the radio compartment on 8/5/45 while escaping from Courland. On the other hand , several pilots were killed unable to abandon their damaged aircrafts because of the presence of passengers in the radio compartment

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## Graeme (Mar 29, 2018)



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## MiTasol (Mar 30, 2018)

Graeme said:


> Not a classic WW2 aircraft but there was a large "baggage" space accessible from the starboard side behind the cockpit on the Seversky P-35. The aerofiles site shows one P-35 fitted out with a buddy seat..



Even the ones without a buddy seat were used to carry passengers at least once

From Bill Bartsch's book _Doomed at the start, _page 238


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## MiTasol (Mar 30, 2018)

Hansie Bloeckmann said:


> As do I..I can only wonder if each pilot had his own "personal funnel"- ditto each crew member on a B-17??



Ask Bill Runnels


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## MiTasol (Mar 30, 2018)

Hansie Bloeckmann said:


> You are correct. The Browning (1919A-1?) in the British .303 were used. Perhaps Vickers were used in WW1 British aircraft?



The Vickers Mk V was used in the Australian Wirraway throughout ww2 because Australia had to pay import duty to Britain on any non British imports


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## MIflyer (Mar 30, 2018)

Seversky used to carry his wife around in the "baggage compartment" of his P-35 demonstrator.


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