# Aircraft murders



## stan reid (Oct 17, 2013)

One of my other chief interests are the classic unsolved murder cases and there are some intersections so I thought I'd start a thread for their discussion.

Four come immediately to mind and I'll elaborate on them later. They are:

1-1923-The possible murder of movie stunt pilot B. H. DeLay when his Wasp biplane crashed with evidence that it was sabotaged. His passenger, businessman R. I. Short, also died in the incident.

2-1928-The possible murder of businessman Alfred Lowenstein during the flight of a Fokker trimotor

3-1933-The bombing of a United Airlines Boeing 247 that resulted in the crash and loss of all 7 on board.

4-1937-The Hindenburg Zeppelin crash possibly due to sabotage resulting in 36 deaths.


Can you think of others? Any thoughts?


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## Capt. Vick (Oct 17, 2013)

I am intrigued by the possible murder of businessman Alfred Lowenstein during the flight of a Fokker trimotor, but I believe the Hindenburg crash was just that, a tragic accident.


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## mikewint (Oct 17, 2013)

Buddy Holly crash 3 Feb 1959 Clearlake Iowa in the spring while clearing the field for planting the farmer finds a .22 pistol belonging to Buddy which had been fired


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## GrauGeist (Oct 17, 2013)

There was alot of rumors and speculation regarding the Hindenburg disaster, but evidence indicates that the highly volotile dope material on the skin of the airship is what started the disaster. Hydrogen burns with a dull red hue and is largely explosive only if it's under pressure, which it wasn't, being in the airship's large cells. The dope on the otherhand, is extremely flammable and burns with a brilliant and explosive pattern, as seen in the photographs. Once the hydrogen ignited, you could see the dull red flames rising above the much brighter flames of the airship's burning skin.


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## mikewint (Oct 17, 2013)

Dave, the doping material of the skin, was akin to thermite (mythbusters) BUT, pure hydrogen will not, cannot "burn" that requires oxygen which wold not be present in the hydrogen gas bags. However there were "conduits" between the bags leading to vents on the surface. Professor Mark Heald of Princeton, New Jersey, who undoubtedly saw St. Elmo's Fire flickering along the airship's back a good minute before the fire broke out. Professor Heald's view of the starboard side of the ship against a backdrop of the darkening eastern sky would have made the dim blue light of a static discharge on the top of the ship more easily visible.
American airship historian Dan Grossman, concluded that the ignition took place above the hydrogen vent just forward of where Mark Heald saw St. Elmo's Fire, and that the ignited hydrogen was channelled down the vent where it created a more explosive detonation described by crew member Helmut Lau.


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## fubar57 (Oct 17, 2013)

Not your era, but as a Canadian, the death in Rome, Italy,of WW2 RCAF ace George Beurling has always intrigued me. His aircraft crashed on take-off as he was heading to Israel. The aircraft was thought to have been sabotaged.

Geo


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## T Bolt (Oct 17, 2013)

mikewint said:


> Buddy Holly crash 3 Feb 1959 Clearlake Iowa in the spring while clearing the field for planting the farmer finds a .22 pistol belonging to Buddy which had been fired


Turns out the farmer who found it had test fired it before he handed it over to the Sheriff.


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## mikewint (Oct 17, 2013)

Which does not preclude it having been fired before Old McDonald fired it


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## stan reid (Oct 17, 2013)

On July 4 1923, movie stunt pilot B. H. DeLay dies in a crash at a California air show. His passenger, businessman R. I. Short also perished in the incident. During an acrobatic maneuver, the wings of the Wasp biplane folded back and the craft plummeted to the ground. When the plane was checked after the crash, it was found that some elements of the wing structure had been replaced by undersized parts. Delay had earlier been involved a dispute over the ownership of an airport but it was never proven that his probable murder had anything to do with this. The case is still a mystery.


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## stan reid (Oct 17, 2013)

On the evening of July 4 in 1928, powerful Belgian businessman Alfred Lowenstein and six others are flying from Croydon, England to Brussels aboard a Fokker trimoter when it is discovered that he is no longer on board. His body was found floating in the Channel on July 19. Today, it is still argued if he fell out of the plane accidentally, committed suicide by jumping, was pushed out of the craft by an enemy or was killed in the Fokker and then thrown out of the door. Investigators determined that it was nearly impossible to open the door accidentally and fall from the plane.


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## stan reid (Oct 17, 2013)

On October 10 of 1933, a United Airlines Boeing 247 traveling from Newark NJ to Oakland CA explodes in flight and crashes near Chesterton, Indiana. All four passengers and three crew are killed. It was determined that the plane was deliberately brought down by an explosive device placed toward the rear of the craft. This is the first known act of airliner sabotage. No suspect or motive was ever found.


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## stan reid (Oct 17, 2013)

On May 6 of 1937, the Zeppelin Hindenburg explodes as it approaches a mooring mast in Lakewood NJ. The airship was completing a trans-Atlantic flight from Frankfurt, Germany. Some survived but 13 passengers, 22 aircrew and one ground crewman were killed. It is mostly thought that the explosion was probably an accident but some have suggested that the incident might have been the result of sabotage. It is unlikely that it will ever definitely be proven either way.


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## Njaco (Oct 17, 2013)

Lets not forget Leslie Howard who was killed during WWII...

Leslie Howard (actor) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## stan reid (Oct 17, 2013)

stan reid said:


> On October 10 of 1933, a United Airlines Boeing 247 traveling from Newark NJ to Oakland CA explodes in flight and crashes near Chesterton, Indiana. All four passengers and three crew are killed. It was determined that the plane was deliberately brought down by an explosive device placed toward the rear of the craft. This is the first known act of airliner sabotage. No suspect or motive was ever found.



Some sources say there were a total of 10 aboard so take your pick. All were murdered at any rate.


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## nuuumannn (Oct 21, 2013)

This is one I heard about many years ago; Prince George, the Duke of Kent. 

"On 25th August 1942, Prince George, Duke of Kent, took off from Invergordon in an S-25 Sunderland Mk III Flying Boat. The official story is the Duke was on a morale-boosting visit to RAF personnel stationed in Iceland. The crew had been carefully selected for the task. The captain, Flight Lieutenant Frank Goyen, was considered to be Sunderland flyer in the RAF and had flown some of Britain’s politicians during the war. The rest of the crew was also highly regarded. The co-pilot was Wing Commander Thomas Lawton Mosley, the commanding officer of 228 Squadron. Mosley was one of the RAF’s most experienced pilots having completed 1,449 flying hours. He was also a navigation specialist and was a former instructor at the School of Navigation.

Officially the Duke of Kent was one of fifteen people on board the aircraft. Also on board were Prince George’s private secretary (John Lowther), his equerry (Michael Strutt) and his valet (John Hales).

The flying boat took off from Invergordon on the east coast of Scotland at 1.10 p.m. Being a flying boat, its standing orders were to fly over water, only crossing land when absolutely unavoidable. The route was to follow the coastline to Duncansby Head – the northernmost tip of Scotland – and then turn northwest over the Pentland Firth towards Iceland.

The S-25 Sunderland Mk III crashed into Eagle’s Rock later that afternoon (there is much dispute about the exact time this happened) at a height of around 650 feet."

Take a look here:

Prince George, Duke of Kent

Interesting stuff, then I looked at the book Double Standards, mentioned on the page; I'd be very wary of this book. I've come across one of its authors in my past and have to state that the ideas contained within the book's pages take conspiracy theories to the extreme.


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## Coors9 (Oct 21, 2013)

Wasn't there a fella who wanted to kill his wife . She was a novice pilot, so he bought her an F4U hoping she'd kill herself on takeoff. Sure I heard that somewhere.


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## gumbyk (Oct 21, 2013)

That's a bl**dy expensive way to get rid of the wife! A divorce would have been cheaper!


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## T Bolt (Oct 22, 2013)

If you consider individuals specifically targeted during time of war you have to include Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto


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## GrauGeist (Oct 22, 2013)

T Bolt said:


> If you consider individuals specifically targeted during time of war you have to include Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto


Though in wartime, an Admiral is still a combatant, so it would be comparable to infantrymen targeting enemy officers and shooting them out of the saddle.


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## stan reid (Oct 25, 2013)

On November 11 of 1933, the Soviet 7-engine Kalinin K-7 crashed on its final test flight, killing 14 on board and one on the ground. There was speculation then and since that the craft might have broken up in flight due to sabotage, possibly from a rival design bureau.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 25, 2013)

Uncle Joe wasn't happy with Kalinin, either.

And when Uncle wasn't happy with someone...well, you pretty much know how that ended...


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## stan reid (Oct 25, 2013)

The Prince George, Duke of Kent crash reminds me of the somewhat suspicious crash that killed Adolf II, Prince of Schaumburg-Lippe and his wife Ellen. On March 26 of 1936, the Ford Trimotor they were aboard inexplicably flew into the side of a Mexican volcano. It was thought that he might be on the outs with the Hitler regime.


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## stan reid (Nov 1, 2013)

stan reid said:


> The Prince George, Duke of Kent crash reminds me of the somewhat suspicious crash that killed Adolf II, Prince of Schaumburg-Lippe and his wife Ellen. On March 26 of 1936, the Ford Trimotor they were aboard inexplicably flew into the side of a Mexican volcano. It was thought that he might be on the outs with the Hitler regime.



Both cases look very strange unless you consider the person at the controls was on a suicide mission.


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## stan reid (Dec 1, 2013)

I suppose the pilots could have been rendered insensate by some administered noxious substance.


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## Marcel (Dec 18, 2013)

What about the PanAm flight 103 that crashed at Lockerby?


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## GrauGeist (Dec 18, 2013)

Marcel said:


> What about the PanAm flight 103 that crashed at Lockerby?


Such a horrible tragedy that was


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## T Bolt (Dec 19, 2013)

UN Secretary General Dag Hammarskjöld in 1961. Lot of loose ends involved in that DC-6 crash.

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## Airframes (Dec 21, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> Such a horrible tragedy that was



I drove down the A74 at Lockerbie that night, not long before the wreckage came down. Had I been maybe fifteen minutes late, leaving Glasgow, I might have been one of the victims caught on the ground. A terrible act of cowardly cruelty - made worse when reports, and photos, started to come in, about the wreckage, and victims, found spread across a _very_ long swathe of England and Scotland.


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## stona (Dec 21, 2013)

SilkAir Flight 185.
The NTSB concluded that the pilot had deliberately dived into the ground killing all 104 people on board.

Egypt Air Flight 990.
The NTSB found the crash was caused by deliberate action of First Officer Gameel Al-Batouti, killing all 217 people on board.

Needless to say the local authorities disagreed with the NTSB's conclusions in both cases.

Steve


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## GrauGeist (Dec 21, 2013)

Airframes said:


> I drove down the A74 at Lockerbie that night, not long before the wreckage came down. Had I been maybe fifteen minutes late, leaving Glasgow, I might have been one of the victims caught on the ground. A terrible act of cowardly cruelty - made worse when reports, and photos, started to come in, about the wreckage, and victims, found spread across a _very_ long swathe of England and Scotland.


Good thing you missed that, Terry!

I cannot fathom the reasoning behind people who commit acts of harm and misery upon innocent people. So many other ways to get a point across.


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## stan reid (Jan 1, 2014)

Marcel said:


> What about the PanAm flight 103 that crashed at Lockerby?



Yes, there are a lot of those after you get beyond the original era; probably starting with John Gilbert Graham in 1955. He was executed in 1957.


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## Totalize (Jan 30, 2014)

Marcel said:


> What about the PanAm flight 103 that crashed at Lockerby?



Not sure if this is in line with the spirit of the thread. This one was solved I believe. A few Libyans were handed over by Gaddafi and one was convicted of the crime. Gaddafi and Libya paid compensation to the victims. The only question that seems to be unresolved was whether Gaddafi ordered the attack.


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## stona (Jan 30, 2014)

Totalize said:


> The only question that seems to be unresolved was whether Gaddafi ordered the attack.



Or whether it was ordered by Gaddafi and carried out by Libyans at all. This is not wild conspiracy theory territory.

Gaddafi had his own reasons for coughing up a few of his petro-dollars and handing over a couple of his hapless intelligence officers.

Cheers

Steve


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## pbehn (Jan 31, 2014)

Brings back memories, I filled up with petrol in Lockerbie the day before the crash.


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## stan reid (Feb 1, 2014)

GrauGeist said:


> Uncle Joe wasn't happy with Kalinin, either.
> 
> And when Uncle wasn't happy with someone...well, you pretty much know how that ended...




That is very true.


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## stan reid (Mar 1, 2014)

stan reid said:


> Yes, there are a lot of those after you get beyond the original era; probably starting with John Gilbert Graham in 1955. He was executed in 1957.



Graham blew up an entire airliner to kill his mother and collect her insurance and inheritance.


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## vikingBerserker (Mar 1, 2014)

Man, that's hardcore.


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## Njaco (Mar 2, 2014)

Was that one of the stories in "The FBI Story" with Jimmy Stewart?


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## stan reid (Mar 2, 2014)

That is correct


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## stan reid (Apr 1, 2014)

Before Graham, there was Albert Guay who blew up an airliner full of people over Canada in 1949 to kill his wife Rita. His motives were to collect on her life insurance and to remove her as an impediment to a relationship he was having with his mistress. He enlisted a shady clockmaker named Genereux Ruest and, Ruest's sister, Marguerite Pitre to gather materials and build the bomb. All three were convicted of murder and executed. Madame Pitre, who went to the gallows on January 9 of 1953, was the last woman hanged in Canada.

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## Vassili Zaitzev (Apr 1, 2014)

A few. 

Air India Flight 182, destroyed by a bomb on the 23rd of June, 1985 off the coast of Ireland. It was later discovered that a militant Sikh group was behind it. Below is the aircraft. 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM5UbGhrhG4_






Pacific Southwest Airlines Flight 1771, crashed after both Captain and First Officer were shot on December 7th, 1987. The gunman was a former worker at USAir, which owned PSA, a true POS. 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPQeUIWmYrw_


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## stan reid (Apr 17, 2014)

Thanks for all that Vassili


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## stan reid (May 1, 2014)

stan reid said:


> Graham blew up an entire airliner to kill his mother and collect her insurance and inheritance.



John Gilbert Graham's 1956 trial is believed to be the first to be broadcast on television. On January 11 of 1957, he was executed in the gas chamber at Colorado State Penitentiary.


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## stan reid (May 4, 2014)

This Wednesday, May 7 (1964), is the 50th anniversary of the crash of Pacific Air Lines 773. The Fairchild F27A Friendship went down in California after Francisco Gonzales burst into the cockpit and shot both pilots and then himself. Out of control, the plane then crashed leaving all 44 onboard dead. Gonzales was deeply depressed and was suffering from financial difficulties. Before he boarded the plane in Reno, he purchased a large life insurance policy on himself with his wife named as the beneficiary.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (May 4, 2014)

stan reid said:


> This Wednesday, May 7 (1964), is the 50th anniversary of the crash of Pacific Air Lines 773. The Fairchild F27A Friendship went down in California after Francisco Gonzales burst into the cockpit and shot both pilots and then himself. Out of control, the plane then crashed leaving all 44 onboard dead. Gonzales was deeply depressed and was suffering from financial difficulties. Before he boarded the plane in Reno, he purchased a large life insurance policy on himself with his wife named as the beneficiary.



Forgot about that one. I really don't understand(perhaps don't want to) why someone who's about to take his own life is willing to take others with him. Damn waste of human life.


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## stan reid (Jun 1, 2014)

Vassili Zaitzev said:


> Forgot about that one. I really don't understand(perhaps don't want to) why someone who's about to take his own life is willing to take others with him. Damn waste of human life.



It baffles me as well.


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## CommanderBounds (Jun 28, 2014)

One mystery still yet to be solved is TWA Flight 800. That one's a conspiracy theorist's playground. Some say it was a missile or bomb, Some say it was In-Flight Breakup and others say aliens. I've got to say that there are so many mass murders in the air it almost scares me to fly sometimes just to know what has happened to many others who came on board a plane expecting a routine flight only to find themselves plummeting to the ground or blown up in matter of seconds. To all who have lost family and friends in plane crashes you have my condolences.


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## gumbyk (Jun 29, 2014)

The ATSB are favouring a less fantastical story for MH370 now... Hypoxia "Best Fit" in MH 370 Disaster ATSB Says - Flying Lessons

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## vikingBerserker (Jun 29, 2014)

The thing that always puzzled me about Flight 800 as the number of people that reported a "flare" heading towards the aircraft.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Jun 29, 2014)

While important, eyewitnesses accounts should be taken with a grain of salt. People rarely see the same thing the same way.


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## stan reid (Jul 1, 2014)

On October 27 of 1939, while flying in Missouri, Earnest Pletch shoots and kills his flight instructor, Carl Bivens, and pushes him out of the plane. He then flew to Bloomington, Indiana where he was arrested and eventually given a life sentence. Pletch was upset about the estrangement of his wife and claimed that he killed Bivens when he wouldn't agree to fly to Mexico. This is believed to be the first fatal aircraft hijacking.


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## CommanderBounds (Jul 4, 2014)

I never thought about hypoxia occuring on MH370 but it seems perfectly logical. Helios Flight 522 wandered strangely off course and it was found that everyone on board was suffering from hypoxia. I think TWA Flight 800 will probably remain a mystery for years to come because of this NTSB denies request to reopen TWA Flight 800 crash investigation - Los Angeles Times Irritates me that they won't try to solve it. You'd expect they'd try to find it out so the families and friends of the victims could have closure on what happened that day.


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## GrauGeist (Jul 4, 2014)

CommanderBounds said:


> I think TWA Flight 800 will probably remain a mystery for years to come because of this *Irritates me that they won't try to solve it.*


Probably don't want to re-evaluate the incident because they don't want to run the risk that they may have been wrong in their conclusion...


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## CommanderBounds (Jul 5, 2014)

I thought it was still unconcluded. I Must have read the wrong articles on Flight 800 and I've always been told it was still a mystery. Hmm... Time to research some more!


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## gumbyk (Jul 6, 2014)

There are less people dying in aircraft crashes now than ever before.

The NTSB probably don't want to re-open the TWA800 investigation, because they have a 'probable cause' - the centre fuel tank, and anything they find now will be no more than a 'probable cause'. In investigations such as this, you'll likely never get a definite cause.

Besides, reopening the investigation will only give credence to the conspiracy nutters...

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## stan reid (Aug 1, 2014)

Yes, commercial aircraft is about 100 times more safe in deaths per passenger mile than traveling by automobile but cars are quite a bit safer than private aircraft and helicopter. The most dangerous mode of travel that average people use is motorcycle which is about 38 times more dangerous than automobile travel - 3800 times more dangerous than commercial aircraft.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 1, 2014)

stan reid said:


> Yes, commercial aircraft is about 100 times more safe in deaths per passenger mile than traveling by automobile *but cars are quite a bit safer than private aircraft and helicopter.* The most dangerous mode of travel that average people use is motorcycle which is about 38 times more dangerous than automobile travel - 3800 times more dangerous than commercial aircraft.


Not really. There are only about 450+ GA deaths a year, depends how you slice the numbers, miles driven ~ hours in the air. 

General Aviation Safety Recod-Current and Historic - AOPA

I show 196,165,666 drivers licensed drivers in the US with ~33,500 deaths per year.

There are 617,128 licensed pilots in the US with ~450 deaths per year.


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## gumbyk (Aug 1, 2014)

I've done the math on NZ.

You're more likely to have an accident in a car, but more likely to die in a GA accident here. hours or kilometres just change the numbers, not the outcome.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 1, 2014)

In all the years I have both driven and flown, I can safely say that I would rather fly than drive.

In the air, you share airspace with people who have to have certified skills and follow rules to a far higher degree than you will find on the road. On terra firma, you have drunks, red light runners, idiots texting, kids fooling around and the occasional person who passes out and slams into oncoming traffic at high speeds (yes, this happened to me)

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## gumbyk (Aug 1, 2014)

Unfortunately, I've lost far more friends from aircraft accidents than car accidents.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 1, 2014)

gumbyk said:


> Unfortunately, I've lost far more friends from aircraft accidents than car accidents.


Sorry to hear that 

Here in the U.S., we are a car culture and with such a large population and high numbers of automobiles, it's no surprise that auto accidents are the number one non-disease related cause of death in the U.S.

In otherwords, on average, 2,000,000 Americans die of various causes each year. Out of that, roughly 35,000 are auto related. Now, on the same annual average, less than 1,000 Americans die from aviation related (in North America proper) accidents (GA, Civil, etc)


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## gumbyk (Aug 3, 2014)

Yes, but if you calculate that on a per hours of exposure, or per mile travelled, the figures would look quite different.


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## stan reid (Sep 1, 2014)

In deaths per person mile of travel, things like bicycling and walking are far more dangerous than travel by auto. It doesn't seem that way because you don't normally walk 15,000 miles in a year.


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## stan reid (Oct 1, 2014)

mikewint said:


> Buddy Holly crash 3 Feb 1959 Clearlake Iowa in the spring while clearing the field for planting the farmer finds a .22 pistol belonging to Buddy which had been fired



That is a puzzling case.


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## stona (Oct 2, 2014)

stan reid said:


> That is a puzzling case.



Not really. The farmer, Albert Juel, told the Sheriff's office when handing in the gun that it still worked. He had test fired it. Truth is usually more boring than fiction.

Cheers

Steve


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## stan reid (Nov 1, 2014)

WOW! If that's what happened, that farmer was a little on the strange side. Were the victims' wallets empty too?


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## stona (Nov 1, 2014)

Buddy Holly carried the weapon in the false bottom of an overnight bag. The bag was retrieved from the crash site by Larry Holley after he had identified his brother's body. The bottom had been ripped out in the crash and the weapon was not found at the time. It was found later that spring by Juel who, having fired it, handed it in to the Sheriff's office.

Holly is clutching the bag in this photograph taken at the Laramar Ballroom in Fort Dodge, Iowa on January 30th 1959, a few days before the fatal flight. 







There really is NO mystery here at all, but why let well known and documented facts get in the way of a good story. 

Cheers

Steve


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## stan reid (Nov 1, 2014)

I would call that tampering with evidence.


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## stona (Nov 1, 2014)

stan reid said:


> I would call that tampering with evidence.



Maybe it was, but no one thought so at the time. Juel found the gun in his field a couple of months after the crash and I guess curiosity got the better of him and he fired it. He admitted it to the Sheriff's office when he handed it in and was never charged with anything. 
The gun was found along with other personal items like Holly's spectacles and Big Bopper's watch when the snow melted in the spring. Those items were also handed in to the Sherriff's office and remained there until 1980. The wreckage of the aircraft was strewn over more than 300 yards.

The Civil Aeronautics Board report concluded that the probable cause of the accident was,

_"the pilot's unwise decision to embark on a flight which would necessitate flying solely by instruments when he was not properly certificated or qualified to do so. Contributing factors were serious deficiencies in the weather briefing, and the pilot's unfamiliarity with the instrument which determines the attitude of the aircraft." _

The reason for Peters unfamiliarity with this instrument is clarified in the report.

_"When his instrument training was taken, several aircraft were used and these were all equipped with the conventional type artificial horizon and none with the Sperry Attitude Gyro such as was installed in Bonanza N 3794N. These two instruments differ greatly in their pictorial display.
The conventional artificial horizon provides a direct reading indication of the bank and pitch attitude of the aircraft which is accurately indicated by a miniature aircraft pictorially displayed against a horizon bar and as if observed from the rear. The Sperry F3 gyro also provides a direct reading indication of the bank and pitch attitude of the aircraft, but its pictorial presentation is achieved by using a stabilized sphere whose free-floating movements behind a miniature aircraft presents pitch information with a sensing exactly opposite from that depicted by the conventional artificial horizon." _

It continues.

_"The Board concludes that pilot Peterson, when a short distance from the airport, was confronted with this situation. Because of fluctuation of the rate instruments caused by gusty winds he would have been forced to concentrate and rely greatly on the attitude gyro, an instrument with which he was not completely familiar. The pitch display of this instrument is the reverse of the instrument he was accustomed to; therefore, he could have become confused and thought that he was making a climbing turn when in reality he was making a descending turn. The fact that the aircraft struck the ground in a steep turn but with the nose lowered only slightly, indicates that some control was being effected at the time. The weather briefing supplied to the pilot was seriously inadequate in that it failed to even mention adverse flying conditions which should have been highlighted." _

Incidentally the pilot, Roger Arthur Peters, was only 21 years old but had a total of 711 flying hours of which 128 were on the Beech Bonanza, the type involved in the fatal accident. 

The gun had nothing to do with the accident.

It's always a shame when the facts get in the way of a good story 

Cheers

Steve

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## stan reid (Dec 1, 2014)

Another suspected aircraft murder is Daj Hammarskjold who died in a 1961 crash in central Africa. Some have asserted that his plane was shot down by a former RAF pilot who was working for powerful individuals in the breakaway Katanga Province.


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## stan reid (Jan 1, 2015)

stan reid said:


> Another suspected aircraft murder is Daj Hammarskjold who died in a 1961 crash in central Africa. Some have asserted that his plane was shot down by a former RAF pilot who was working for powerful individuals in the breakaway Katanga Province.



If I remember correctly, the alleged shoot down plane was not a traditional warplane.


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## stan reid (Feb 1, 2015)

stona said:


> Buddy Holly carried the weapon in the false bottom of an overnight bag. The bag was retrieved from the crash site by Larry Holley after he had identified his brother's body. The bottom had been ripped out in the crash and the weapon was not found at the time. It was found later that spring by Juel who, having fired it, handed it in to the Sheriff's office.



Day after tomorrow is the 56th anniversary of this event, the event that sort of put the exclamation point on the end of the 1950s, I think.


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## stan reid (Mar 1, 2015)

stan reid said:


> If I remember correctly, the alleged shoot down plane was not a traditional warplane.



Supposedly more of a traditional private plane that had been fitted with offensive weapons.


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## gumbyk (Mar 4, 2015)

stan reid said:


> Day after tomorrow is the 56th anniversary of this event, the event that sort of put the exclamation point on the end of the 1950s, I think.



Looks like the NTSB is considering re-opening the investigation... Buddy Holly plane crash investigation to be reopened? - CBS News


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 5, 2015)

gumbyk said:


> Looks like the NTSB is considering re-opening the investigation... Buddy Holly plane crash investigation to be reopened? - CBS News



An investigator thinks that something else caused the crash as the weather wasn't as bad as reported. I can't find the article right now but the guy who owned the aircraft is still alive and the wreck still exists.


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## pbehn (Mar 5, 2015)

gumbyk said:


> Looks like the NTSB is considering re-opening the investigation... Buddy Holly plane crash investigation to be reopened? - CBS News



I think there is a mentality that cannot believe famous people have accidents. I have lost count of the number of people who have told me (especially in France and Germany) that Diana Princess of Wales was killed by secret services, completely ignoring the fact that if she put her bloody seat belt on she would have had no more than a sore neck and bruising. Whatever happens Buddy Holly wont be back let him rest.


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## gumbyk (Mar 5, 2015)

pbehn said:


> I think there is a mentality that cannot believe famous people have accidents. I have lost count of the number of people who have told me (especially in France and Germany) that Diana Princess of Wales was killed by secret services, completely ignoring the fact that if she put her bloody seat belt on she would have had no more than a sore neck and bruising. Whatever happens Buddy Holly wont be back let him rest.



Yeah, but there is also pressure to get answers quickly when a celebrity is involved, so the investigation is under huge pressure to get to a conclusion quickly, which can lead to errors being made.


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## pbehn (Mar 5, 2015)

gumbyk said:


> Yeah, but there is also pressure to get answers quickly when a celebrity is involved, so the investigation is under huge pressure to get to a conclusion quickly, which can lead to errors being made.



If Diana and Dodi Fayed had put on their seatbelts then they would have lived, as their body guard did, no celebrities would have died and the drunk driver would be just that, a drunk driver. If I get drunk and wipe out my unbelted family no one would return a verdict of unlawful killing. Unless a celebrity dies of old age there is always a conspiracy I blame the internet...harrrrummpphh


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## gumbyk (Mar 5, 2015)

I wasn't talking of any specific investigation, just generalities.

P.S. Here in NZ, you would be found guilty of manslaughter in your case.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 5, 2015)

Agree about letting it rest...

There's a guy investigating the weight and balance of the aircraft which should have been mentioned in the original NTSB report. Additionally it's coming to light that the weather wasn't as bad as first reported. There is also a theory about either Valenz or Richardson trying to change seats in flight with Holly as the plane was climbing out. Only Peterson's body remained with the aircraft as the other bodies were thrown from the wreck. I think the NTSB report mentions that the front seatbelt mounting was torn from the aircraft.


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## stona (Mar 5, 2015)

pbehn said:


> I have lost count of the number of people who have told me (especially in France and Germany) that Diana Princess of Wales was killed by secret services, completely ignoring the fact that if she put her bloody seat belt on she would have had no more than a sore neck and bruising.



It is common practice for celebrities NOT to wear seat belts at the behest of their body guards, one of whom was in the car with Diana. The reasons for this override the increased risk of injury in a road traffic accident.

She was the victim of an impaired (drunk) driver, driving beyond his abilities into a fairly dangerous part of the peripherique. Those tunnel supports make very poor crash barriers.

Cheers

Steve


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 5, 2015)

Storm Lake Pilot Tribune: Local News: Could new investigation clear Buddy Holly pilot? (01/20/15)


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## pbehn (Mar 5, 2015)

stona said:


> It is common practice for celebrities NOT to wear seat belts at the behest of their body guards, one of whom was in the car with Diana. The reasons for this override the increased risk of injury in a road traffic accident.
> 
> She was the victim of an impaired (drunk) driver, driving beyond his abilities into a fairly dangerous part of the peripherique. Those tunnel supports make very poor crash barriers.
> 
> ...



The bodyguard had his seatbelt on and survived, in UK the driver is responsible for minors, adults are responsible for themselves. The chauffeur was not in a position to tell Diana or Dodi to strap up, if they strapped up they would have sacked him.


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## pbehn (Mar 5, 2015)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Agree about letting it rest...
> 
> There's a guy investigating the weight and balance of the aircraft which should have been mentioned in the original NTSB report. Additionally it's coming to light that the weather wasn't as bad as first reported. There is also a theory about either Valenz or Richardson trying to change seats in flight with Holly as the plane was climbing out. Only Peterson's body remained with the aircraft as the other bodies were thrown from the wreck. I think the NTSB report mentions that the front seatbelt mounting was torn from the aircraft.



There maybe something in that, celebrities, high powered people and their hangers on are notorious for disregarding safety or pushing it to the limits. In aircraft accidents, Leigh Mallory and the Munich air crash spring to mind. In General powerful or famous people seem to have a greater sense of "it wont happen to me" Celebrities are notorious for the prima dona mentality, did you see the Asian woman who made a passenger plane return to its stand because her nuts were not presented correctly, against all airline and airport rules but hubby ran the government or the airline and she got her way.


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## stan reid (Mar 5, 2015)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Storm Lake Pilot Tribune: Local News: Could new investigation clear Buddy Holly pilot? (01/20/15)



I remember these events pretty vividly because these guys were scheduled to do a show here in Peoria on Valentine's Day, 11 days after the crash. If I correctly recall, a local rock and roll station (WIRL) was sponsoring the gig and was promoting it heavily on their broadcasts. I think Dion and the Belmonts were the only lead act to make it to the show which did go on. There was a mad scramble to find replacement acts. I think one was Jill Corey but I hadn't heard of the others and don't remember who they were.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 5, 2015)

Bobby Vee


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## stan reid (Mar 31, 2015)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Bobby Vee



Ah yes, I see he was a sub almost immediately and was likely on the roster here on Valentine's Day. Since Vee didn't make a major move on the charts until 1960, I'm sure I hadn't heard of him before February of 1959.


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## stona (Apr 1, 2015)

It's starting to look more and more likely that Andreas Lubitz murdered everybody on board German Wings flight 9525.

Steve


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## stan reid (Apr 1, 2015)

stona said:


> It's starting to look more and more likely that Andreas Lubitz murdered everybody on board German Wings flight 9525.
> 
> Steve



Not much question I don't think.


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## stan reid (Apr 2, 2015)

This year will be the 50th anniversary of the unsolved bombing of Canadian Pacific Air Lines Flight 21. On July 8 of 1965, the Douglas DC-6B crashed in BC after an explosive device went off in the restroom, blowing the tail off the plane. All 52 aboard were killed.


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## stan reid (May 1, 2015)

stan reid said:


> This year will be the 50th anniversary of the unsolved bombing of Canadian Pacific Air Lines Flight 21. On July 8 of 1965, the Douglas DC-6B crashed in BC after an explosive device went off in the restroom, blowing the tail off the plane. All 52 aboard were killed.



And no real suspects that I know about.


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## stan reid (Jun 1, 2015)

stan reid said:


> And no real suspects that I know about.



No terrorist group claimed responsibility so that makes it more likely it was for money, revenge or it was some lone nut.


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## stan reid (Jul 4, 2015)

stan reid said:


> This year will be the 50th anniversary of the unsolved bombing of Canadian Pacific Air Lines Flight 21. On July 8 of 1965, the Douglas DC-6B crashed in BC after an explosive device went off in the restroom, blowing the tail off the plane. All 52 aboard were killed.



The anniversary is this coming Wednesday.


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## stan reid (Jan 3, 2016)

On July 19 of 1994, Alas Chiricanas Flight 901 blew up shortly after taking off from Colon, Panama. All 21 aboard were killed. It is beleived that a suicide bomber passenger set off the explosion while inflight. The mass murder remains unsolved.


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## stan reid (Jan 8, 2016)

On January 6 of 1960, a dynamite bomb went off aboard National Airlines Flight 2511. The DC-6 went down in North Carolina killing all 34 in the craft. Suspicion is that it was a suicide bomber. The body of Julian Frank was found many miles from the main crash site where all the other bodies were found and bore trama that indicated that he was closest to the explosion when it went off. Frank was having some legal problems so he was the center of the investigation although he was never officially named as a suspect and the case is still considered to be unsolved.


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## vikingBerserker (Jan 14, 2016)

WOW!


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## parsifal (Jan 14, 2016)

Korean airlines Flight 9002, though its no mystery

On April 20, 1978, Soviet air defense shot down Korean Air Lines Flight 902 (KAL 902) near Murmansk, Soviet Union, after the civilian aircraft violated Soviet airspace and failed to respond to Soviet ground control and interceptors. Soviet Air Defence Forces initially identified it as part of the US air reconnaissance force, which carried out thousands of flights along Soviet borders annually at the time. Captain Alexander Bosov, pilot of the Sukhoi Su-15 that brought down Flight 902, saw Asian logogram characters on the tail of the Korean aircraft, and reported this to the ground control. Despite this, Vladimir Tsarkov, commander of the 21st Soviet Air Defense Corps, ordered Bosov to take down the plane, as the plane failed to respond to repeated orders to land, and was approaching the Soviet border with Finland. The Su-15 opened fire, forcing the plane to descend, and killing two of the 109 passengers and crew members aboard Flight 902. The plane made an emergency landing on the frozen Korpiyarvi lake (not to be confused with the Korpijärvi lake) near the Finnish border



Korean airlines flight 007 
Korean Air Lines Flight 007 (also known as KAL007 and KE007) was a scheduled Korean Air Lines flight from New York City to Seoul via Anchorage. On September 1, 1983, the airliner serving the flight was shot down by a Soviet Su-15 interceptor, near Moneron Island west of Sakhalin in the Sea of Japan. The interceptor's pilot was Major Gennadi Osipovich. All 269 passengers and crew aboard were killed, including Larry McDonald, a Representative from Georgia in the United States House of Representatives. The aircraft was en route from Anchorage, Alaska, to Seoul when it flew through Soviet prohibited airspace around the time of a U.S. aerial reconnaissance mission.

The Soviet Union initially denied knowledge of the incident, but later admitted shooting it down, claiming that the aircraft was on a MASINT spy mission. The Politburo of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union said it was a deliberate provocation by the United States to test the Soviet Union's military preparedness, or even to provoke a war. The White House accused the Soviet Union of obstructing search and rescue operations. The Soviet Armed Forces suppressed evidence sought by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) investigation, such as the flight data recorders, which were released eight years later after the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

The incident was one of the most tense moments of the Cold War and resulted in an escalation of anti-Soviet sentiment, particularly in the United States. The opposing points of view on the incident were never fully resolved; consequently, several groups continue to dispute official reports and offer alternative theories of the event. The subsequent release of Korean Air Lines Flight 007 transcripts and flight recorders by the Russian Federation has clarified some details.

As a result of the incident the United States altered tracking procedures for aircraft departing from Alaska. The interface of the autopilot used on airliners was redesigned to make it more ergonomic. In addition, the event was one of the most important single events that prompted the Reagan administration to allow worldwide access to the United States military satellite navigation system GNSS, which was classified at the time. Today this system, and others like it, are known as GPS.

Malaysian Airlines flight MH 17

Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17)[a] was a scheduled international passenger flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur that crashed on 17 July 2014 after being shot down, killing all 283 passengers and 15 crew on board. The Boeing 777-200ER airliner lost contact about 50 km (31 mi) from the Ukraine–Russia border and crashed near Torez in Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine, 40 km (25 mi) from the border. The crash occurred during the Battle in Shakhtarsk Raion, part of the ongoing war in Donbass, in an area controlled by the Donbass People's Militia.

According to American and German intelligence sources, the plane was mistakenly shot down by pro-Russian insurgents using a Buk surface-to-air missile (SA-11) fired from the territory which they controlled. Their judgement was based on sensors that traced the path of the missile, analysis of fragment patterns in the wreckage, voice print analysis of conversations in which separatist militants claimed credit for the strike, as well as photos and other data from social media sites. On 13 October 2015, the Dutch Safety Board (DSB) released a final report on their investigation into the incident, concluding that the airliner was downed by a Buk surface-to-air 9M38-series missile with 9N314M warhead launched from Eastern Ukraine.

The Russian government blamed the Ukrainian government for the incident, saying that Ukraine is responsible for the crash because it happened in Ukrainian airspace.[8] Immediately after the crash, a post appeared on the VKontakte social media profile attributed to Russian Colonel Igor Girkin, leader of the Donbass separatists, claiming responsibility for shooting down an AN-26 near Torez, but after it became clear that a civilian aircraft had been shot down, the separatists denied any involvement, and the post was taken down. An independent analysis by Bellingcat of open-source evidence indicated that Russian-backed separatists were in control of a Buk missile launcher on 17 July and transported it from Donetsk to Snizhne, while three eyewitnesses told the BBC that such a missile launcher was operated by a crew that seemed to be Russian in the area on that date.

The Ukrainian government stated that the missile was launched by "Russian professionals and coordinated from Russia". The German Federal Intelligence Service reportedly concluded that the plane was shot down by pro-Russian separatists using a captured Ukrainian Buk system. In July 2015, Malaysia proposed a United Nations resolution to set up an international tribunal to prosecute those suspected of being behind the downing of the plane. While the proposal gained a majority on the UN Security Council (11 countries voting for it, 3 abstaining), it was vetoed by Russia. The crash of Flight 17 was the fifth Boeing 777 hull loss. The crash was Malaysia Airlines' worst incident and its second of the year, after the disappearance of Flight 370 four months earlier.

There is a pattern here. Do we have a psychopathic nation in our ranks?


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## Gnomey (Jan 15, 2016)

Interesting stuff! Thanks for sharing. Always someone who is a little trigger happy...


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## Graeme (Feb 25, 2017)

Was Poland's Wartime Leader Murdered? | HistoryNet


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## Graeme (Feb 25, 2017)

A 1993 theory was an empty mailbag "sucked" out of the open side hatch and lodging in the tail...


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