# HELP: P-51D Excavation in France Turns Up Questions



## ColesAircraft (Nov 9, 2012)

These photos depict a recent P-51 excavation in France. I received these photos along with a huge box of the parts themselves (today, in fact), and I've noted some interesting peculiarities. This is supposed to be a D-Day loss and a P-51 'D' model. But it can't be. Look at the red surround on the national insignia - which dates the loss of this aircraft to between July and September 1943, many months before the 'D' was even in Europe. In fact, it seems quite possible that this aircraft, pieces of which I'm looking at on my carpet, is an A-36 Apache! 

The following part numbers I've written down from various places:

102-31276-2
97-31108-5
73-31370

In any case, the pilot was killed in this crash and the identity of his aircraft and the history of the loss deserve to be known. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


- Ron Cole

index


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## tomo pauk (Nov 9, 2012)

Don't want to burst your bubble, Ron, but the A-36 was used only in MTO and in Burma. In September 1943 (and prior of that), there is almost zero chance that A-36 were used over France. Further, the USAAF had almost no, or none at all, P-51s in the ETO at the date of interest (July - Sept 1943). 
Of course, I'm looking to be educated here; Ron, more photos would be welcomed, like the engine plate, for example


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## drgondog (Nov 9, 2012)

ColesAircraft said:


> View attachment 215517
> View attachment 215518
> View attachment 215519
> View attachment 215520
> ...



The first P-51D that I have going down was Lt Harvey Arnold 336/4th FG 44-13307 near Comberg June 18, 1944.

There were neither P-51A nor A-36 on ops except for the Recon units.


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## ColesAircraft (Nov 9, 2012)

tomo pauk said:


> Don't want to burst your bubble, Ron, but the A-36 was used only in MTO and in Burma. In September 1943 (and prior of that), there is almost zero chance that A-36 were used over France. Further, the USAAF had almost no, or none at all, P-51s in the ETO at the date of interest (July - Sept 1943).
> Of course, I'm looking to be educated here; Ron, more photos would be welcomed, like the engine plate, for example



I have no bubble to burst, and thank you for the information so far. I just need to try and ID what I have. It's unusual with the red surround in any case. What I do with these parts is pair them with my original artwork of the aircraft. So tracking down its markings is important - more so what aircraft it was! Whatever is on my floor here was made by North American, was a single engine a/c w/ a Hamilton Standard prop, and was sporting the July-Sept. 1943 US national insignia. And the pilot died in the crash. 



Here are more photos of the dig:


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## ColesAircraft (Nov 9, 2012)

drgondog said:


> The first P-51D that I have going down was Lt Harvey Arnold 336/4th FG 44-13307 near Comberg June 18, 1944.
> 
> There were neither P-51A nor A-36 on ops except for the Recon units.




Thanks for that info!


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## woljags (Nov 9, 2012)

i just looked up Wiki and it notes that 1 aircraft was with the RAF for testing,could this be it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A36


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## ColesAircraft (Nov 9, 2012)

I have identified one important piece of this wreckage (see above). I believe this proves that this is not a P-51D as the 'D' had a different tail. Also it seems that the A-36 and P-51A used a Curtiss propeller, and this aircraft had a Hamilton Standard used on the 'B' and 'D' models. 

Looks like a P-51B. Still interested in those red rimmed insignia! What unit was flying the P-51B over France between July and September 1943? 

I love this stuff! Thanks for the help so far. Maybe I'll send out some freebie prints once the artwork is done.


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## Vincenzo (Nov 9, 2012)

afaik none unit flying P-51B over france in july-september. First missions started in december.


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## ColesAircraft (Nov 9, 2012)

Vincenzo said:


> afaik none unit flying P-51B over france in july-september. First missions started in december.



Looks like the 354th Fighter Group took delivery of their P-51Bs sometime between October and December - depending upon the source. I've seen two photos of 354th FG P-51Bs w/ red around the insignia - one undated, the other claiming to be in October. The order came down to paint out the red in September, but that doesn't mean it happened in every unit overnight. 

Seems like this must be a very, very early 354th FG P-51 loss. This is very cool to me, because it would mean that the Mustang did see action with these short-lived markings. I don't know if anyone's been able to verify that before. These details also imply this could be one of the first P-51 losses in the ETO.






Above: Early 354th FG P-51B, allegedly dated October 1943, w/ red rimmed US insignia.


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## Crimea_River (Nov 9, 2012)

Squadron Signal's Mustang in Action has the 354th's first escort mission over the continent on Dec 5, 1943. First sweep, according tanother source, was over Belgium Dec 1. No losses.

Edit see below....


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## Crimea_River (Nov 9, 2012)

Checking loss records for late 43/early 44. Where in France is this?

I have a 354th FG loss on Dec 11/43 but no location. Lt Norman Hall of 363rd FS

EDIT - this could be 43-12196 (354th FG, 356th FS) pilot became anoxic and crashed into English Channel 1 mi S of Portland Bill, UK Dec 11, 1943. MACR 1457. Pilot MIA. Possible oxygen system failure.

If so, it's obviously not your bird.

Will keep looking.


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## Crimea_River (Nov 9, 2012)

Loss records I looked at show several in Jan and Feb 44 but no locations unfortunately.


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 10, 2012)

That's so cool fellas!


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## ColesAircraft (Nov 10, 2012)

Crimea_River said:


> Loss records I looked at show several in Jan and Feb 44 but no locations unfortunately.




Terrific loss information - and I've been unable to find anything better anywhere myself. Lots of info on victories, but little on losses. I found a couple of more images of P-51Bs with the 354th that still have the red rimmed markings:






This machine also has nose art - so they seem to have been used in action with the red prior to being repainted blue according to regulations. 

I have an email out regarding the exact location of this dig, along with a query regarding how it was thought that this a/c was a 'D' model that supposedly fell a year later than this one seems to have. 

Cole's Aircraft: index


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## drgondog (Nov 10, 2012)

There were zero P-51B's in ETO until the first boatload came to Speke (approximately August 1943) for assembly and modification radios, etc to ETO standards. The 354th initially trained on P-51A from 67th Tactical recon Gp. in November and got their first P-51B-1 in third week of November.


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## drgondog (Nov 10, 2012)

ColesAircraft said:


> View attachment 215531
> 
> 
> I have identified one important piece of this wreckage (see above). I believe this proves that this is not a P-51D as the 'D' had a different tail. Also it seems that the A-36 and P-51A used a Curtiss propeller, and this aircraft had a Hamilton Standard used on the 'B' and 'D' models.
> ...



The first P-51D flew first combat mission in very late May/early June. It was the P-51D-5 which had exactly the same eppenage as the P-51A/B/C. The P-51D-10, arriving at 8th/9th AF combat groups in August, 1944 had the production ventral tail fin. Kits were retro-fitted to all early D/K models and then to B/C's that were still in combat ops through January-March 1945.


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## jasonp51d (Nov 12, 2012)

102-31276 is a Beam Assembly - Fuselage sta 204-1/4 radiator air scoop attaching - these were only fitted to B, C D versions
97-31108 is a Frame Assy - Fuselage rear section covered complete - these were fitted to A, B, C versions
73-31370 is a Frame Assy - Fuselage sta 273-1/2 upper - these were fitted to A, B, C versions

It would seem to me you most likely have a P-51B or C.

If any of these parts are for sale or disposal please let me know as my museum is currently building a P-51D-5-NA cockpit section see Bottisham Airfield Museum - P-51 Project Page

Please contact me at [email protected] 

Thanks

Jason


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## Geedee (Nov 12, 2012)

Well done Jason, you beat me to it with the info (only found this one out today !)


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## herman1rg (Nov 12, 2012)

Keep the info coming guys.


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## Airframes (Nov 12, 2012)

In the B&W photos posted, be very careful of assessing the outline to the star and bar as red. The directive ordering the red surround from June 28 1943, to be implemented no later than 1st September, was countermanded on August 14th 1943. This ordered a change to a blue surround. Generally, where a red surround was already in place, this was overpainted with fresh blue paint, which gave a contrast, looking darker than the 'older', most likely weathered, blue of the disc to the star.
The photos posted appear to be a good example of this, where the tonal change is apparent, and different to red, even if orthochromatic film had been used. (no other tones in the photos suggest the use of this film type).
Also, in the colour images of the wreckage, although there appears to be a small portion which has a reddish cast, I believe this is possibly oxidised blue paint, which would give a purplish cast, as seen in the images, an effect also caused by chemical reactions of different types of soil.
I may well be proved wrong, but I really think that the outline was originally blue.


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## Crimea_River (Nov 12, 2012)

That would certainly open up the possibilities of which aircraft this is Terry.


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## beaupower32 (Nov 13, 2012)

I posted here P-51B's lost in france from 43-45. I used the websites 8th USAF Aircrafts downed in France 1942-1945 Avions de la 8ème Air Force tombés en France 1942/1945 and 8th Air Force Fighter Group - Littlefriends.co.uk to research the S/N's. I only included the B model and also included the pilots that became POW's and Evaded. Its a broad list, but maybe it can help out in getting this figured out. Also included are teh MACR's if needed. Hope this helps.

B-17-France is a website of all USSAF aircraft lost over France during WW2. Lots of good info on it. 

42-106906 P-51B 369FS IV-L Sander Lt. Robert B Lost in this a/c 8 June 44 - KIA MACR: 5599 

42-106898 P-51B 368FS CV-D Hagan Lt. Benjamin M III Lost in this a/c 8 June 44 - POW MACR: 5598 

43-7150 P-51B 334FS QP-P Lost 8 June 44 - Lt. James F Scott KIA MACR: 5605 (also seen this one listed in the 4th FG 847th FS)

43-7199 P-51B 369fs IV-F Booth Lt. Robert J "Posty" Oily Boid II Lost in this a/c 8 June 44 - POW MACR: 5592 

42-106667 P-51B 368FS CV-L Marcinkiewicz Lt. John S Sweet Sue Lost in this a/c 7 June 44 - POW MACR: 5518 (also listed as CV-Z)

43-6947 P-51B 363fs B6- Lost 6 June 44 - Lt. Irving A Smith KIA MACR: 5515

42-106917 P-51B 375fs E2-K Nita (L) Bottoms Up (R) Lost 26 Aug 44 - Lt. Jack S Crandell KIA MACR: 8539 

42-106916 P-51B 369fs IV-D Lost 18 Aug 44 - Lt. Don S Melrose KIA MACR: 8124 

42-106942 P-51B 374fs B7-H Zieske Lt. Clarence E Jeanne (possibly not applied) Named after wife. Lost in this a/c 12 Aug 44 - KIA MACR: 7619 

43-24795 P-51B 357fs OS-M Lost 20 July 44 - Lt. Walter O Costello - Evaded MACR: 6837 

43-7146 P-51B 328fs PE-V Dubay Lt. Elmo Buster Lost 19 July 44 - Lt. William D Wilson POW MACR: 6841 

43-6945 P-51B 358fs YF-R Beckman Lt. Jack M Wizard Kite - Judy Lost 8 July 44 - Lt. James P Lowder Jr. KIA MACR: 6793 

42-106870 P-51B 354fs WR-N Fortier Maj. Norman J "Bud" Lost 5 July 44 - Lt. Victor E Denti KIA MACR: 6791 

43-6985 P-51B 336fs VF-C Villinger Lt. George K Lost in this a/c 2 March 44 KIA (335 F/S per 8th Losses) MACR: 2790 

42-106858 P-51B 358fs YF-Q Dissette Capt. Lawrence J Damn Yank II Lost 19 June 44 - Lt. Ralph L Coleman KIA MACR: 5964 

43-6523 P-51B 358fs YF-E Blair Capt. Charles W Jr. Leakin' Lizz Lost 19 June 44 - Lt William W Reeves Jr. KIA MACR: 5961 

42-106889 P-51B 503fs D7-P Wyatt Capt. Valdee Serial Code from Encounter Report 19 May 44. Pilot Folwell. Lost 19 June 1945 - Lt. Robert B Brown KIA MACR: 5946 

42-106615 P-51B 503fs D7-R Serial Code from Encounter Report 24 May 44. Pilot Brown. Lost 19 June 1944 - Lt. Ralph H Dearey POW MACR: 5944 

42-106679 P-51B 369fs IV-O Oliphint Capt. John H The Mad Rebel Lost in this a/c 8 June 44 - Evaded MACR: 5623 

42-106823 P-51B 334fs QP-K Allen Lt. Eacott G Lost in this a/c 8 June 44 - Evaded MACR: 5613 

43-6895 P-51B 354fs WR-P Couture Lt. Robert D Lost in this a/c 7 June 44 - Evaded and rescued by the Maquis. Returned to Steeple Morden 16 August 1944. MACR: 5565

43-24845 P-51B 487fs HO-R Lost 7 June 44 - Lt. Robert L Hall KIA MACR: 5501 

43-12469 P-51B 335fs WD-L Lost 21 March 44 - F/O. Joseph Goetz KIA MACR: 3383 

43-6639 P-51B 335fs WD-P Carlow Capt. Earle W Lost in this a/c 21 March 44 - Evaded MACR: 3378

43-6316 P-51B 335fs WD-H Lost 21 March 44 - Lt. William C Hawkins POW MACR: 3438



EDIT: This list is by no means complete, as well as the B-17-France website. .


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## drgondog (Nov 14, 2012)

Beaupower - the list of P-51B/C's lost over France is far longer if you wish to complie pre D-Day losses. For example the 357th lost two of their most important 'names' on March 5, 1944 - Yeager near Angouleme and Col Spicer, Gp CO near Le Havre. Of course Yeager evaded.


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## beaupower32 (Nov 14, 2012)

I deffently agree with you drgondog, those are only the ones I found so far in the short time I had to do it. It will probably be impossible to list every single one lost over France. I figured at least that can be a start.


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## drgondog (Nov 14, 2012)

beaupower32 said:


> I deffently agree with you drgondog, those are only the ones I found so far in the short time I had to do it. It will probably be impossible to list every single one lost over France. I figured at least that can be a start.


You spent a lot of time and got a good start.

I would estimate at least 70-100 P-51B/C were lost to 8th and 9th plus another 30+ Mustang III over France.


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## MikeGazdik (Nov 14, 2012)

Does anybody know what parts are serialed to the specific aircraft? As in, would the Merlin originally installed in said aircraft also have the serial number of the Mustang? Or would Packard have a list of serialed engines, and which aircraft they were originally installed? I know I'm shooting in the dark. By the crumpled mass of the one photo, its going to be small parts that may eventually identify this airplane. It does look by the one piece to be a B/C model. Maybe if they can find the remains of 4 Brownings instead of 6, that would definately show it is the earlier airplane.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 14, 2012)

MikeGazdik said:


> Does anybody know what parts are serialed to the specific aircraft? As in, would the Merlin originally installed in said aircraft also have the serial number of the Mustang? Or would Packard have a list of serialed engines, and which aircraft they were originally installed? I know I'm shooting in the dark. By the crumpled mass of the one photo, its going to be small parts that may eventually identify this airplane. It does look by the one piece to be a B/C model. Maybe if they can find the remains of 4 Brownings instead of 6, that would definately show it is the earlier airplane.



If you were able to find specific aircraft equipment lists, engine, prop, turbocharger, landing gear, guns and maybe radios were serialized to specific airframes. The silver bullet would be the data plate if found in the wreck.


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## drgondog (Nov 15, 2012)

The data plate - or the surviving stencil on the left side under the cockpit displaying contract number airframe type and dash number as well as serial number. On the manufacturing line the routing paperwork would carry the NAA serial number (different from tail number but in proper sequence) but the actual serial number didn't go on the tail and outside of the fuselage until the paint shop.

Any part with a number only refers to the BOM part and dash number - not the airframe top serial number. What you could do is take the part numbers found and go back to the Bill of Materials and maybe get lucky with a dash number/block effectivity but by and large the B/D were ~95% common part numbers. GFE on the other hand can also help nail airframe model dash numbers. As Joe noted things like radios and gunsights and engines will yield clues. 

The 1650-3 Merlin for example did not get installed in late P51B-5 and all subsequent P-51's. The next engine and all remaining operational engines for the P-51B-7, -10 and -15 plus all P-51D and K models had the 1650-7.

They (1650-3 'the high altitude version of the Merlin") were installed in All P-51B-1's so that would narrow the search down from mid December 1943 to perhaps D-Day during which the early -1's were being retired or WW transfers to training duty.


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## Airframes (Nov 15, 2012)

It may not be possible to identify for certain badly crushed main parts, but other items which could narrow it down between B/C and D variants would be the seat, radio frame, any evidence from the windscreen and canopy area and similar.


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## ColesAircraft (Nov 16, 2012)

Wow - terrific information! Thank you! 

With respect to this particular P-51 loss, I think I now have a pretty clear picture, including the pilot, loss date, etc. I published the details and more photos here: http://colesaircraft.blogspot.com/2012/11/anatomy-of-p-51-mustang-loss.html

What's amazing is that the pilot is buried about 120 miles from where I live in Ohio! As of today I'm trying to locate his surviving family with the help of the local newspaper. I'd like to give them the main piece of wreckage from his aircraft, if they're interested. That would be proper.

The one detail that is missing from the above article, however, is the a/c serial number - and perhaps you guys might be able to clear this up. The number I have is 42-312391, which doesn't seem to correspond to the production lists that I have. Nevertheless, I found a photo of a P-51B/F-6B with the tail code 312300, and a 'B' with the 354th FG with the tail code 312408. None of these correspond to my production list, which is why I omitted mention of the serial in my short article. I'd sure like to edit it in, though, if I can figure out for sure what the story is! 







- R


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## Crimea_River (Nov 16, 2012)

The first number 3 indicates the year 1943 so your number 42-312391 seems bogus. In my reference here 1943 USAAF Serial Numbers (43-5109 to 43-52437) there is a gap between 12386 and 12393 so we'll need to look elsewhere for 12391.


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## ColesAircraft (Nov 16, 2012)

Crimea_River said:


> The first number 3 indicates the year 1943 so your number 42-312391 seems bogus. In my reference here 1943 USAAF Serial Numbers (43-5109 to 43-52437) there is a gap between 12386 and 12393 so we'll need to look elsewhere for 12391.



I thought the same regarding the '42' and I suspect that it might have been a simple typo by the source, though I wasn't aware of the significance of the '3' in the number. Thanks for that! Now the records make more sense.


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## ColesAircraft (Nov 17, 2012)

Figured out the serial number error. The original Missing Air Crew Report incorrectly lists the a/c serial as '42-312391' and the pilot's name as 'William Dale' - his name was William Dale Lacey. 

I found another photo of him besides the one I included in my Blog article:


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## GregP (Nov 18, 2012)

The first P-51D models had the same tail, without the dorsal fin, which was fitted later.

The P-51's first flight was 26 Oct 1940, and the 8th Air Force started P-51 operations from Great Britain in August 1942. I believe the 8th began operating P-51's in the fall of 1943, but Great Britain reveived some P-51's early on for evalulation since they were the ordering customer. The British planes early on used factory numbers and were not called "P-51's", but were instead NA-73's (320) and NA-83's (300). All were designated Mustang Mk I's by the UK. The P-51A's were designated Mustang II's.

The first Mustang I's entered British service in 1941 with 2 Squadron RAF. The first long-range missions were on 27 July 1942, so if this one crashed earlier, it was one of the first Mustang I's in British service, and was either an NA-73 or NA-83. They all had Allison engines and Curtiss Electric props, so maybe not ...

The P-51B (first flight 30 Nov 1942) and C were the same aircraft with the B being made in Inglewood, California and the C being made in Dallas, Texas. The P-51D and K weer also the same with the D made in Inglewood and the K made in Dallas. The only real difference in the D and K was the propeller. The K had an Aeroproducts airscrew and the D and a Hamilton-Standard.

So, your P-51 is very probably a British plane from the early batches and was very probably designated as a Mustang I. The British DID fit a Merlin to a couple of Mustang I's, but I do not know the history of those airframes. The Allison-engined planes were fitted with Curtiss Electric props, so maybe your parts are from the British Merlin trials planes or perhaps the source for your data got the year wrong ... maybe it was 1944.

I may be wrong, but I believe the British Merlin-Mustang prototypes used British props, not Hamilton-Standard units.

This is interesting!


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## ColesAircraft (Nov 18, 2012)

Oops!


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## TheMustangRider (Nov 19, 2012)

A deserved tribute for a fallen hero.
How striking and sad it is to see both the DOB and KIA date. A sobering remainder of the infinite sacrifices made by the WWII generation to preserve our freedom.

May they all rest in peace.


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## ColesAircraft (Nov 19, 2012)

TheMustangRider said:


> A deserved tribute for a fallen hero.
> How striking and sad it is to see both the DOB and KIA date. A sobering remainder of the infinite sacrifices made by the WWII generation to preserve our freedom.
> 
> May they all rest in peace.




I know the feeling. When I receive parts from warbirds like this, there are occasionally instances when I learn of fatalities associated with them, and that always makes a strong impression. But this has been the most powerful case so far, and as an artist who ultimately has to make a living doing what I do with my art and these pieces - I felt uneasy about the commercial aspect of this project. Thus I've tried especially hard to be tasteful and do service to the man and his machine. 10% of all of my eBay sales from this display are going to a San Diego veteran's charity, and I'm in touch with Lt. Lacey's hometown newspaper and the cemetery near Toledo with the hope of contacting his surviving relatives. I believe that his sister, who was 80 in 2009, has since past away, but I'd like to donate the largest piece of this aircraft to them. 

- R


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## ColesAircraft (Nov 20, 2012)

Here's my painting of this aircraft:


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## bobbysocks (Nov 20, 2012)

very nice....


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## GregP (Nov 20, 2012)

The British Merlin Mustangs were called the :"Mustang X." If you Google it, you'll see they had much more of a chin droop than the North American version and also had British props.

Glad you got it straight; GREAT painting!


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## Airframes (Nov 21, 2012)

Not quite right._*One *_British Merlin engined Mustang was know as Mustang X - this was the prototype, used at Hucknal by Rolls Royce for trials. Production P-51B/C were known as Mustang III, with the 'D' being Mustang IV and the'K' being Mustang IVa.


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## VBF-13 (Nov 23, 2012)

ColesAircraft said:


> I know the feeling. When I receive parts from warbirds like this, there are occasionally instances when I learn of fatalities associated with them, and that always makes a strong impression. But this has been the most powerful case so far, and as an artist who ultimately has to make a living doing what I do with my art and these pieces - I felt uneasy about the commercial aspect of this project. Thus I've tried especially hard to be tasteful and do service to the man and his machine. 10% of all of my eBay sales from this display are going to a San Diego veteran's charity, and I'm in touch with Lt. Lacey's hometown newspaper and the cemetery near Toledo with the hope of contacting his surviving relatives. I believe that his sister, who was 80 in 2009, has since past away, but I'd like to donate the largest piece of this aircraft to them.
> 
> - R


You're a real pro, Coles. This is the kind of sensitive treatment one would expect from a real pro.


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## ColesAircraft (Jun 26, 2013)

For no particular reason evil I was going through some of my earlier threads and found this on what was thought to be a P-51D excavated from France. These parts were obtained by me from a Belgian collector, who also took these photos of the excavation itself. 

In any case, the history of this interesting aircraft has been determined - and I thank the folks on here who helped with that. This aircraft was one of the first 'B' models to be delivered to Europe, and sported the short-lived red surrounding the national insignia. But it went on to become a photo-reconnaissance F-6B operated by the 10th Photo Group, 12th Photo Squadron and flown by Willian Lacey Jr. The latter was shot down by ground fire on July 30, 1944 

Below is a photo of William Lacey and a profile of his aircraft:







In an amazing coincidence I was eventually able to locate his grave not far from my home:






Mr. Lacey's sister is still alive somewhere - or was until a few years ago. 



- Ron Cole


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## drgondog (Jun 27, 2013)

ColesAircraft said:


> Figured out the serial number error. The original Missing Air Crew Report incorrectly lists the a/c serial as '42-312391' and the pilot's name as 'William Dale' - his name was William Dale Lacey.
> 
> I found another photo of him besides the one I included in my Blog article:
> 
> View attachment 216235



43-12391 was in the last 102 P-51B-1NA series of 400. It almost certainly went to the 354th FG. I researched losses of -12205 through -12488. The earliest Loss was 12-11-1943 (-12196), the next losses were 12-30-43 (-12206), 12-20-43 (-12406)..

So there is a straddle between 12196 and 12406 and possible this ship was lost in mid December 1943 but I don't have the MACR's to get locations.

It is absolutely impossible for any P-51B-1 lost in 1943 on the continent to occur before 354 started combat ops December 1, 1943.


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## ColesAircraft (Jun 27, 2013)

Sounds about right. I think earlier in the thread there was some specific discussion regarding early missions, too. The only lingering question, and thus interesting question - at least to me - is the red around the insignia. It was so short lived in service, and yet we unearth a P-51B / F-6B that was shot down in July 1944 that still retained the red surround without any evidence of over-painting. It's a detail, to be sure, but it is noteworthy. I personally think that for artists and scale modelers the red surround offers a colorful and interesting variation of markings. If some aircraft went into combat with those markings, possibly as late as July 1944, then we'd have more justification to use such colors in our respective crafts. 



- Ron Cole


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## ColesAircraft (Jun 27, 2013)

ColesAircraft said:


> For no particular reason evil I was going through some of my earlier threads and found this on what was thought to be a P-51D excavated from France. These parts were obtained by me from a Belgian collector, who also took these photos of the excavation itself.
> 
> In any case, the history of this interesting aircraft has been determined - and I thank the folks on here who helped with that. This aircraft was one of the first 'B' models to be delivered to Europe, and sported the short-lived red surrounding the national insignia. But it went on to become a photo-reconnaissance F-6B operated by the 10th Photo Group, 12th Photo Squadron and flown by Willian Lacey Jr. The latter was shot down by ground fire on July 30, 1944
> 
> ...


 


drgondog said:


> 43-12391 was in the last 102 P-51B-1NA series of 400. It almost certainly went to the 354th FG. I researched losses of -12205 through -12488. The earliest Loss was 12-11-1943 (-12196), the next losses were 12-30-43 (-12206), 12-20-43 (-12406)..
> 
> So there is a straddle between 12196 and 12406 and possible this ship was lost in mid December 1943 but I don't have the MACR's to get locations.
> 
> It is absolutely impossible for any P-51B-1 lost in 1943 on the continent to occur before 354 started combat ops December 1, 1943.




Agreed! When I started this thread I thought I'd received the wreckage of a P-51D (as that's how it was erroneously described to me, sight unseen), but I quickly saw that it was a 'B' from what I had of the rear fuselage and horizontal tail. Thus I started from scratch, and posted here for help. That this was a very early P-51 loss was my hopeful speculation, but then it became clear once the serial number was known that this wasn't the case - in spite of the somewhat misleading late-'43 red-rimmed national insignia. Finally I went back to my source and asked if he could put me in touch with the excavation team. I finally discovered the whole story: The loss date, pilot's name, his grave site . . . and the fact that by 2006 this P-51 loss had become one of the better known WWII Allied aircraft crash sites in France, complete with a memorial monument erected at the site that year, and information pertaining to the pilot's family via several news reports. 

Well . . . if you don't dig, you'll never know!


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## drgondog (Jun 28, 2013)

You may recall from the lack of a dorsal fin, the a/c still could have been a P-51D-5 from just the evidence originally presented. Having said that the D-5 didn't arrive into operational deployment until very late May 1944


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## A4K (Jun 28, 2013)

The rear fuse would be lower though in any case.


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## barneybolac (Oct 18, 2017)

Curious was there any invasion stripes found at all on this wreckage?


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## parsifal (Oct 18, 2017)

My head hurts and is spinning on its axis at this point.

Great work guys, though I suspect you all have given up your day jobs at this point.


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