# Highest Scoring Fighter Ace, Still Living?



## Josh64 (Oct 8, 2009)

With the unfortunate passing of the great ace Gunther Rall, I was wondering who is now the highest scoring fighter ace still living?

Anyone Know?


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 8, 2009)

Erich Rudorffer - 222 kills, 12 flying the Me 262.


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## Josh64 (Oct 8, 2009)

Thanks


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## Erich (Oct 8, 2009)

hate to say it but many of ER's kills are suspect especially his 262 claims


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## Juha (Oct 9, 2009)

Hello Eric
there was also accusation that he bullied his wingman to substantiate bogus claims during his Eastern front service, but of course that is nowadays at least almost impossible to prove or disprove without complete access to Soviet/Russian records.

Juha


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## Arsenal VG-33 (Oct 9, 2009)

It would be interesting to see a list of all surviving WW 2 aces, if it would possible to compile such information into one place. We could do something like that here, if it doesn't already exist elsewhere.


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## Juha (Oct 9, 2009)

The last of Finnish famous aces died in last month, at least I don't recall any living over 30 kills FAF aces now, after "Kössi" died.

Juha


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## Erich (Oct 9, 2009)

yes it is very possible. mine has been trashed so many times as my access to the O.d.R. is sometimes not very current


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 9, 2009)

I am going to try and tackle this. I will probably never be completed, but I will try and make a list of all known living aces from any country (no matter how many they shot down).

If anyone knows of any, please send me the ones you are certain of in a pm.

I will get a thread going here in a bit, once I have some info.


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## Erich (Oct 9, 2009)

have fun Chris picking and sorting through, this is who is left amongst the living with the highest awards

Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords:

Waldemar von Gazen (Heer)
Hajo Herrmann (Luftwaffe)

Erich Rudorffer (Luftwaffe)

Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves: - Alphabetical

Otto Carius (Heer)
Kurt Dahlmann (Luftwaffe)
Oskar Hubert Dennhardt (Heer)

Martin Drewes (Luftwaffe)
Klaus Feldt (Kriegsmarine)
Walter Girg (SS)
Hermann Greiner (Luftwaffe)
Reinhard Hardegen (Kriegsmarine)
Rolf Hermichen (Luftwaffe)
Albert Kerscher (Heer)
Franz Kieslich (Luftwaffe)
Hans Gunther Lange (Kriegsmarine)
Georg Lassen (Kriegsmarine)
Kuno von Meyer (Heer)
Dr. Josef Georg Mulzer (Heer)
Heinz Rökker (Luftwaffe)
Heinrich Ruhl (Heer)
Wolfgang Schenck (Luftwaffe)
Walter Schuck (Luftwaffe)
Johann Schwerdfeger (Heer)
Gerhard Simons (Heer)
Georg Störck (Heer)
Wilhelm Weidenbrück (Heer)
Dr. Eberhard Zahn (Heer)
Paul Zorner (Luftwaffe)

Knight's Cross: - Alphabetical

Friedrich Adrario (Heer)
Hinrich Ahrens (Heer)
Heinz Angelmaier (Heer)
Dietrich Ascher (Heer)
Erich Axthammer (Luftwaffe)

Erwin Bachmann (SS)



Karl-Ludwig Barths (Heer)
Ludwig Bauer (Heer)
Artur Becker- Neetz (Heer)
Karl Heinz Becker (Heer)
Winrich Behr (Heer)
Dr. Anton Benning (Luftwaffe)
Frhr. Werner von Beschwitz (Heer)
Heinz Beutler ( Heer)
Gunther Bierbrauer (Luftwaffe)
Georg Bleher (Heer)

Kurt Bischof (Heer)
Hans Ekkehard Bob (Luftwaffe)
Engelbert Bockhoff (Heer)
Walter Boehm (Heer)
Joachim Boosfeld (SS)
Hans Georg Borck (Heer)
Georg Bose (Heer)
Gunther Braake (Heer)
Max Brandenburg (Luftwaffe )
Paul Brasack (Kriegsmarine)
Hugo Broch (Luftwaffe)
Karl Brommann (SS)
Friedrich Buck (SS)
Arthur Büssecker ( Luftwaffe)

Friedrich Carl (Heer)


Dieter Damerius (Heer)
Fritz Darges (SS)
Erwin Diekwisch (Luftwaffe)
Albert Dubicki (Heer)

Dipl. Ing. Helmut Eberspächer (Luftwaffe)
Hermann Eckardt (Heer)
Alfred Eick (Kriegsmarine)
Hans Eikmeier (Heer)
Karl Heinz Euling (SS)

Walter Fasel (Heer)
Gerhard Fischer (Heer)
Gerhard Fischer (SS)
Gunther Frenzel (Luftwaffe)
Sigfried Freyer (Heer)
Herbert Fries (Luftwaffe)

Franz Gapp (Luftwaffe)
Walter Gerhold ( Kriegsmarine)
Siegfried Gerstner (Luftwaffe)
Dieter Gläsche (Heer)
Karl Glaetzer (Heer)
Gunter Glasner (Luftwaffe)


Leopold Hackl (Luftwaffe)
Gunther Halm (Heer)
Willi Hammerich (Heer)
Josef Hammerschmidt (Heer)
Karl Gunther von Hase (Heer)
Eberhard Heder (SS)
Hans Joachim Heinrici (Heer)
Othmar Hermes (Heer)
Justin Hönig (Heer)
Ahrend Höper (Heer)
Werner Hoffmann (Luftwaffe)
Willi Hümmerich (Heer)

Siegfried Jamrowski (Luftwaffe)

Helmut Jeserer (Heer)

Karl Kainz (Heer)
Soren Kam (SS)
August Kaminski (Heer)

Hans Klaus (Luftwaffe)
Paul Georg Kleffel (Heer)

Karl Heinz Knollmann (Heer)
Helmut Klemann (Heer)
Peter Kox (Heer)
Gerhard Krems (Luftwaffe)
Erwin Kressmann (Heer)
Heinz Krettek (Heer)
Theo Kroj (Heer)
Wilhelm Kröhne (Heer)
Prof. Dr. Fritz Krück (Heer)

Walter Kuhn (Heer)
Hermann Kunz (Heer)


Ludwig lang (Heer)
Fritz Langanke (SS)

Ludwig Laubmeier (Heer)
Wilhelm Lehner (Heer)
Helmut von Leipzig (Heer)
Karl Wilhelm Lindemann (Heer)


Hermann Mangels (Heer)
Siegmund Matheja (Heer)
Maximilian Mayerl (Luftwaffe)
Julius Meimberg (Luftwaffe)
Ludwig Meister (Luftwaffe)
Kuno von Meyer (Heer)
Wilhelm Moritz (Luftwaffe)
Gerhard Möws (Heer)

Rudolf Munser (Heer)
Johannes Naumann (Luftwaffe)
Ernst Neufeld (Heer)
Lorenz Neumayr (Heer)
Wilhelm Noller (Luftwaffe)
Harald Nugiseks (SS)

Dieter Oster (Luftwaffe)
Jürgen Oesten (Kriegsmarine)




Frhr. Robert von Prochazka (Heer)
Georg Pröhl (Luftwaffe)
Erwin Prössl (Luftwaffe)

Karl Rademacher (Heer)
Heinz Rafoth (Heer)

Dr. Alfred Regeniter (Heer)
Max Heimo Rehbein (Heer)
Heinz Remmert (Heer)
Willi Reschke (Luftwaffe)
Erich Reuter (Heer)
Ernst -Martin Rhein (Heer)
Rudolf von Ribbentrop (SS)
Heinz Ritter (Heer)


Josef Rollecke (SS)
Heinz Rothhardt (Heer)
Karl Ruef (Heer)
Heinrich Ruhl (Heer)
Freidrich Rumpelhardt (Luftwaffe)

Kurt Sametreiter (SS)
Oskar Schäfer (SS)
Hermann Schleinhege (Luftwaffe)
Erich Schlemminger (Heer)
Bruno Schmelzinger (Heer)
Alois Schnaubelt (SS)
Karl Heinz Schnell (Luftwaffe)
Herbert Schneider (Luftwaffe)

Gunther Seeger (Luftwaffe)
Karl Selinger (Heer)
Gunther Sempert (Luftwaffe)
Fritz Seyffardt (Luftwaffe)

Heinrich Sonne (SS)
Dr. Hubert Spadiut (Luftwaffe)


Paul Heinrich Stoll (Heer)
Hans Hermann Sturm (Heer)
Heinrich Südel (Luftwaffe)
Heinrich Timpe (Heer)
Willy Tscherning (Luftwaffe)
Hans Uhde(Heer)
Fritz Vehse (Heer)
Viktor Vitali (Luftwaffe)
Georg Vögerl (Luftwaffe)
Helmut Vögtle (Heer)

Wilhelm Walther (Heer)
Gunter Wanhofer (SS)
Franz Weber (Heer)
Anton Wehinger (Heer)
Hermann Wehking (Heer)

Helmut Wieselhuber (Heer)

Dietrich Witzel-Kirn (Heer)
Walter Wolfrum (Luftwaffe)
Gunther Wrona (Heer)
Achim Wunderlich (Heer)

Max Zastrow (Heer)
Dr. Gerhard Zoppoth (Heer)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 9, 2009)

It will be tough, but I think it will be fun and time consuming task.


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## Arsenal VG-33 (Oct 9, 2009)

Just to clarify, what is the criterion? Every surviving pilot who shot down at least one plane, or surviving aces, with 5 or more kills?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 9, 2009)

Arsenal VG-33 said:


> Just to clarify, what is the criterion? Every surviving pilot who shot down at least one plane, or surviving aces, with 5 or more kills?



Only Ace's. 

Not trying to diminish anyone's service, but if we were to list all pilots it would be 100% impossible. At least with ace's it is only 95% impossible....


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## drgondog (Oct 9, 2009)

Bill Cullerton 355th FG - 5 Air 15 Ground, in two separate missions destroyed 15 a/c of his total of 20. Of course Bud anderson and chuck yeager and korea aces robby risner, jim kasler, ralph parr, boots blesse.. off the top


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 9, 2009)

I will tell you what is sad. While starting this little research here, is the number of these brave men that have recently in the past few months passed away. You never hear anything about it. It is a real shame I find.


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## parsifal (Oct 9, 2009)

This is a link to the high scorers of Desert air force ( RAAF), with emphasis on 3 squadron (with their later bios included) . some are dead, and to be honest I dont think all were aces, but a lot were....might be of help

3 Squadron RAAF - Pilot Biographies

Good luck Adler


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## parsifal (Oct 9, 2009)

This may also be of interest


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks for the links and info guys.


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## VG-33 (Oct 10, 2009)

Juha said:


> Hello Eric
> there was also accusation that he bullied his wingman to substantiate bogus claims during his Eastern front service, but of course that is nowadays at least almost impossible to prove or disprove without complete access to Soviet/Russian records. Moreover as rightly decided the french tribunal opposing Closterman and CJ Engenhardt for the number of it's victories: they are a kind of decoration attributed to the pilot from it's tutelar autorithy (_RAF_ and _Armée de l'Air_ for Closterman, _Luftwaffe_ for Rall, Rudoeffer)), only these organisations are allowed to discuss about to take them off from the pilot.
> 
> Juha







Hello

There is no reason to mystify russian archives.

The good new is that TsAMO archives are officially open since a couple of weeks. Being in a military zone you were needing a pass, thus not difficult to obtain before. It's finished now with that procedure. Anyway RGAFD archives were always open since 1993 and are still open to anywone. 
It's more than enough to establish that *the day *when Rudorffer claimed *17 Yak *only *3* planes of that type were lost on the aera for 41 Luftwaffe claims, 3 other suffering extended damage. See russian forums from 2003-2004 years, exept a _new scoop _that's a closed file.
The same history with P-40F _Lafayette_ losses in Tunisia and his claims.

In my opinion, the fact that he was caught twice or three times makes not of him an overclaimer much bigger than the other Luftwaffe pilot's. The overclaim rate is far from being constant. From Weissenberger case some dozen of it's claims do not find any confirmation from yhe other side, and some other confirmed from 80 to 90%, by periods.



> *Erich *hate to say it but many of ER's kills are suspect especially his 262 claims



Anyway, i'm against personnal attacks until any claim is not verified (valid, invalid or unstated) from archives of the other side.

Regards


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## Juha (Oct 10, 2009)

I would like to emphasize that IMHO researchers HAVE the right to question victory claims from which there are not paper evidence on even claimant side, which was the situation in the Closterman case, if I have understood it rightly. A paper claiming something else even if signed by a AVM given for whatever reason doesn’t change that. It might well be that Closterman wasn’t the originator of the claim that he got 33 kills during the war and IIRC his Tempest showed some, was it 16, of the victory markings with darker colours and the rest with lighter one. But at some point he became known as 33 kill ace in popular literature, I remember that myself, and IMHO it is ridiculous to accuse researches, who put thinks right by checking the primary sources, in court.

IMHO it is well known that claim accuracy varied during the pilots’ careers, but from what I know, or from what I think I know, some were more reliable claimers than others, mostly because they had more realistic view of their abilities, better ability to critical analyze, better situational awareness and maybe they were less interesting of personal glory. In other words fighter aces were humans as we all.

On Rudorffer or any other ace, many pilots were poor in a/c recognition; it would be simpler to check other side’s single-engine losses and twin-engine losses. 

IMHO vast majority of overclaims were made in good faith, there were only a few cases of deliberate overclaiming. On Rudorffer, there seems to have been some good indications on that in his case but nothing is proven, so only hearsay.

Juha


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## VG-33 (Oct 12, 2009)

Juha said:


> I would like to emphasize that IMHO researchers HAVE the right to question victory claims from which there are not paper evidence on even claimant side, which was the situation in the Closterman case, if I have understood it rightly..
> 
> But at some point he became known as 33 kill ace in popular literature, I remember that myself, and IMHO it is ridiculous to accuse researches, who put thinks right by checking the primary sources, in court.



True, the historians should do their jobs. Closterman had always 23 RAF kills, transformed to 33 by French_ homologation system _based on 1940'th rules.
Of course there was political reasons, but Marcel Albert from _Normandy _also had _collective_ victories inside his 23 kills.





> IMHO it is well known that claim accuracy varied during the pilots’ careers, but from what I know, or from what I think I know, some were more reliable claimers than others, mostly because they had more realistic view of their abilities, better ability to critical analyze, better situational awareness and maybe they were less interesting of personal glory. In other words fighter aces were humans as we all.
> 
> On Rudorffer or any other ace, many pilots were poor in a/c recognition; it would be simpler to check other _side’s single-engine losses and twin-engine losses_.



It's an exageration too far. Why not four-engine losses? I understang that Rudorffer and others took some LaGG-3, P-39 or at least a La-5 for a Yak during this 41 claims on that type, but not a Pe-2 or a Boston, even so!



> IMHO vast majority of overclaims were made in good faith, there were only a few cases of deliberate overclaiming. On Rudorffer, there seems to have been some good indications on that in his case but nothing is proven, so only hearsay.
> 
> Juha



I said until all his claims and Rall ones will be not verified and valideted or unvalideted by russian archives, nobody can say that he was a bigger overclaimer than the other Luft pilots.


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## aurugby (Oct 20, 2010)

I visited with Kenneth Dahlberg yesterday for about 30 minutes. He had 15 victories in the ETO flying P15s and P47s. He received the DSC, DFC, Silver and Bronze Stars, and a dozen or so Air Medals... shot down three times, evaded capture twice and returned to action. Third time was the charm in April '44. He spent the remainder of the war at Stalag #7 near Museberg.

There are probably others with more victories, but I just wanted to brag that I had met him.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 24, 2010)

You lucky so and so!


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## buffnut453 (Oct 24, 2010)

Adler,

The RAF and Commonwealth aces are already well documented in the book "Aces High" by Chris Shores. There's a second volume which corrects errors in the initial release and incorporates all the DIVER aces. 

Hope this helps.


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