# The greatest fighter that never made it



## Oreo (Jul 20, 2008)

Which fighter that didn't quite make it into combat, or more specifically, wide-spread use, woulda-coulda-shoulda made a huge difference if the war had lasted a few months longer?


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## JugBR (Jul 21, 2008)

he 162, no doubt, another great project of germans.


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## Wayne Little (Jul 21, 2008)

Sorry, have to go with my favorite, the Ta152....

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## seesul (Jul 21, 2008)

Wayne Little said:


> Sorry, have to go with my favorite, the Ta152....


second that!


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## renrich (Jul 21, 2008)

The F8F would have been a significant player in the Pacific or Europe if needed.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 21, 2008)

I am going to go with the Ta 152.


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## drgondog (Jul 21, 2008)

I would be split on this. Depends on when introduced. At end of the war I go as follows

The Ta 152 would have been conterbalanced by the P-80. The 162 was introduced but not clear that it was a difference maker over the Me 262 although it was as good as the P-80. P-51H would have been a worthy adversary to the Ta 152 and would have been able to engage more Me 262's than the P-51D but still at a disadvantage.

The F8F had awesome performance but not a quantum leap forward and not s difference maker.

I lump the Hornet and F7F in same pot - great potential and versatility but not up to a me 262 or P-80.

For me, the P-80 to restore parity against the 162 and the 262 and counter the Ta 152 as an escort fighter.

If introduced at earliest possible date based on protoype - the P-38M would have been very important in late 1943/early 1944.


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## Thorlifter (Jul 21, 2008)

Piston I go with the Ta-152. From your list, I'd have to say the P-80. It would have equaled (or got close to) the Ta-152, Me-262, and He-162, which would have kept things balanced. Plus given the manufacturing capabilities of the U.S., it could have filled the sky while Germany was still producing planes in bunkers and caves.


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## Marcel (Jul 21, 2008)

Sorry, would like to call a Fokker again, maybe not the best, but one which belongs to the list: Fokker G.I. Would have made quite a mess with the Germans if being deployed in larger amounts. As a proof, see the attack on Waalhaven, where they still had to take off while the Germans were already bombing, then shooting down 12 germans while loosing only one to enemy fire (one that took of without the tail gunner). With a hundred of these planes in the LVA, the Germans would have had a big problem.


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## KrazyKraut (Jul 21, 2008)

I vote for the He-162 due to its mix of performance, low costs, use of non-critical resources and optimiziation for distributed production. It adressed a lot of the problems the Luftwaffe was facing in '44 but was simply too late.

Personally, I doubt the Ta 152 would've kept enough of a lead over Allied piston fighters like the P-51 for more than a few months. So I don't think it would've made that great a difference overall.


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## bigZ (Jul 21, 2008)

Problem with this poll is the major difference a fighter can cause given that all them are late war types. Allies are still going to win with or without the P-80. The best the Axis can hope for is an extension. Perhaps a few thousand D520's might have made more of a difference in blunting the Blitzkrieg?

But from the list I will go with the unproven Horton and some sort of 152 cover it as my knowledge of Japans arsenal is not too great.


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## kool kitty89 (Jul 21, 2008)

> Perhaps a few thousand D520's might have made more of a difference in blunting the Blitzkrieg?



Or if the VG-33 had come in time. (an aircraft which fits very well for this topic, though not late war as seems to be implied)


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## Njaco (Jul 21, 2008)

split between the 152 and the F8F - went with the TA.


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## Bigxiko (Jul 22, 2008)

He 162
tottaly!!!!!!!!!!


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## merlin (Jul 27, 2008)

I'll go for the Bloch MB-157. Although some may disagree with the 'speed'. Nevertheless, if it had been available in '40 or '41 it would have given the luftwaffe some real problems IMO!


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## B-17engineer (Jul 28, 2008)

Dornier Do-335


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## eddie_brunette (Jul 28, 2008)

Im going for the ME262, if this plane was used for what it was intended to do. 
It could have been in active service since 1942. 
If it was in the skies at the end of '42 and the whole of '43, things might have been very different today.

edd


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## Juha (Jul 29, 2008)

Now Allied won anyway so DH Vampire or Martin-Baker M.B. 5 would not have changed anything. If possible I might have voted for M.B. 5, IIRC test-pilots regarded it very highly and it was a dream of maintenance personel because its excellent accessibility. Maybe time to dig up the old AI where there is E. Brown's assestment on the plane.
In the end, Vampire was way to future, so if possible I would have voted it.

Juha

ADDITION: One more point for Vampire, it was perfectly able to land to and to take-off from carrier, as E. Brown showed on 4th Dec 44. It wasn't put in carrier use because of the slow acceleration from which all early jets suffered and lack of range. But that was in peacetime, if the war had continued, who knows. Vampire F. 3 at least partially solved the range problem.


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## Kurfürst (Jul 29, 2008)

I voted P-80, it would have been a great equaliser in this what if scenario: it would give the Allies a jet that could compete and successfully combat the Me 262.

None of the others gave a particularly substantial increase in combat capability, nor they could really serve as an equaliser - on the Axis side, they could not balance out Allied superirity in numbers, and on the Allied side, they could not hope to be a cure for the German jet menace.


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## Gnomey (Jul 29, 2008)

For me it is a toss up between the P80 and the TaA152. It all depends on which side you look at it from, the Ta was the pinnacle of piston engined fighters whilst the P80 was the beginning of the jets. I went for the Ta though because it would of been more well known as the greatest piston fighter if deployed in more numbers.

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## TL Blade (Jul 29, 2008)

I went for the Do335 it was faster then many allied aircraft with a top speed of over 480kph. Powered by two DB603 A-2 engines it would have been able to out run most allied and axis fighters. It is faster then the DH Hornet which was officially the fastest two engine aircraft in the world at the time.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 29, 2008)

TL Blade said:


> I went for the Do335 it was faster then many allied aircraft with a top speed of over 480kph.



Um you do realize that most frontline fighters in 1939 and 1940 had a top speed of over 480 kmh.

The Do 335 had a top speed of 765 kmh.

I am sure you meant mph...


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## Oreo (Jul 29, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Um you do realize that most frontline fighters in 1939 and 1940 had a top speed of over 480 kmh.
> 
> The Do 335 had a top speed of 765 kmh.
> 
> I am sure you meant mph...



lol!


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## drgondog (Jul 29, 2008)

TL Blade said:


> I went for the Do335 it was faster then many allied aircraft
> 
> It is faster then the DH Hornet which was officially the fastest two engine aircraft in the world at the time.



Faster than an Me 262?


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## drgondog (Jul 29, 2008)

eddie_brunette said:


> Im going for the ME262, if this plane was used for what it was intended to do.
> It could have been in active service since 1942.
> If it was in the skies at the end of '42 and the whole of '43, things might have been very different today.
> 
> edd



Eddy - hard to say that the 262 'didn't make it', though.


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## Lucky13 (Jul 29, 2008)

I'm stuck between Ta-152 and Go-229 flying wing.....


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## KiwiBiggles (Aug 5, 2008)

I'm going with the Hornet, from the list available. But the Martin Baker MB.5 would clean the lot of them.


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## tomo pauk (Jan 18, 2009)

I fail to see how Ta-152 or Do-335 could be better then He-162? The 1st two are well within the grips of P-51H, P-47M/N, Spitfire/Spiteful, dH Hornet...


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## Clay_Allison (Jan 18, 2009)

The F7F was just ridiculous. Huge but fast, powerful, well armed. It would have terrorized the Japanese if it had come out earlier.


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## Waynos (Jan 18, 2009)

I would nominate the DH Vampire, it shared many of the characteristics that people have mentioned for the He 162 and although it didn't debut until 1946, it could have entered service much earlier if required as it was flying in 1943, even before the P-80. With the same sort of super priority that the P-80 had (or the lack of the Meteor) it could well have been going into combat in 1945, especially as its engine programme was less troubled than the Meteors (and the first XP-80 flew with a DH engine). 

But its not on the list.


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## claidemore (Jan 19, 2009)

I notice that we tend to look at the new allied jets as a counter to the German jets, which is fair enough. 
But we shouldn't overlook what the quicker development of those jets would have had on German piston fighters. They would have put the 190D, 109K and Ta152 at a serious disadvantage. 
I voted for the Tempest II though.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Jan 21, 2009)

Too bad there isn't a Ta-152 that is flyable. Then we could see it in action. But all we have right now are the records of it, and since it was rarely used in combat, it doesn't give a lot to go on. 

The Ta-152 did shoot down a Tempest in a turning battle, but the Tempest had very poor turning abilities at low altitude. Even the Spitfire could outturn it.

As for speed, the Bearcat has the record for fastest Piston fighter at 528.33 mph.

I don't know if the Ta-152 could beat that speed in combat. With boost it could go 470 miles per hour, an impressive speed.

The P-51-H and P-47M Mustang also had speeds comparable to the Ta-152.


I think on this forum I have heard it said that the Ta-152 had such a high ceiling that all Allied fighters couldn't withstand it and would become sitting ducks, but that still is just speculation.

Even if in theory the Ta-152 could swoop down on bombers and blast them to pieces then zoom up again to high range, while the Allied fighters could barely get a shot at it, in reality often fighters with poor performance can still make suprisingly good kills. 

Take the Brewster Buffalo by the Finns. It did magnificently against the Russians. Now maybe if the Russians were flying Ta-52's the outcome would have been different. It could have been slaughtered then, like it almost was against the Zero's at Midway.


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## syscom3 (Jan 21, 2009)

For me, the P80. The massive industrial infrastructure of the US could have produced them by the thousands.

But wouldn't the carrier war be different with F7F's and F8F's on board!


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## Clay_Allison (Jan 21, 2009)

I hate the P-80 for killing Richard Bong, I'm not open to reason on the subject.


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## drgondog (Jan 21, 2009)

Clay_Allison said:


> I hate the P-80 for killing Richard Bong, I'm not open to reason on the subject.



How old are you? 

Not "open to reason" because Dick Bong failed to arm the emergency fuel pump (which was there to solve a known problem), lost the primary and then killed himself trying to time the ejection with his rolling P-80 - a la Kinchloe in the F-104A? You think his P-80 had it in for Bong and elected to 'piss him off by failing'??

How interesting..maybe the P-80 'hates you back' because you 'hate it'..


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## Soren (Jan 21, 2009)

Since this is about a/c which didn't make it into the war, the Go-229 is definitely a candidate and the He-162C D were both really promising designs as-well. Another candidate would be the Jumo 004E equipped Me-262 which was very close to becoming a reality in WW2, the engine being ready by the time the war ended, and it would've easily outperformed any Allied project in the works by that time. 

The MTT P.1011 FW Ta183 designs are also possible candidates, being the most advanced fighter designs of the war, but they weren't close to seeing service anytime soon when the war ended.


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## syscom3 (Jan 21, 2009)

drgondog said:


> How interesting..maybe the P-80 'hates you back' because you 'hate it'..



Machines can sense fear!


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## Waynos (Jan 22, 2009)

The Bearcat that holds the speed record was a specially prepared model, stripped out and super tuned plus some external aerodynamic mods too IIRC so is not fully representative of a fighter.

AFAIK, the fastest level speeds recorded by piston fighters, carrying guns, were 500mph+ for the CA-15 and P-47J and 494mph for the Spiteful.


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## otftch (Jan 22, 2009)

The Bearcat climbed like "a bat out of h....." and was super maneuverable.My dad was on the team (USN) that evaluated new aircraft. on one flight, when
only one wing came off because of the explosive bolt failure,the pilot was still able to land safely.I once read ,but cannot verify,that in tests against a P-51 when the '51 reached altitude the Bearcat had already made two firing passes.It was finnally something that could beat the Japanese at thier own game.
Ed


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## syscom3 (Jan 22, 2009)

otftch said:


> ......
> only one wing came off because of the explosive bolt failure,the pilot was still able to land safely......



I think you mean the wingtip came off, not the whole wing.


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## davparlr (Jan 22, 2009)

syscom3 said:


> I think you mean the wingtip came off, not the whole wing.



That would have been one heckofa aileron effectiveness!!

There was no propeller driven fighter that would have changed the war. Toward the end of the war, all the opposing forces had powerful engines and advance aerodynamics. Aircraft on both sides had approached the upper limit of airspeed, about 500 mph, and altitude. Any threatening propeller powered aircraft could have been quickly answered by the opposing side.

So that leaves jets.

After the Allies were established in continental Europe, there was no fighter, propeller or jet, which could help Germany. The Germans already had the fighter that could change the war. They only needed to have it in quantity, with trained crews, and with adequate support, in early 1944. No other listed aircraft would have provided significant advantage over the Me-262.

So, the only fighter that could make a huge difference was the Me-262, in force, in early ’44.


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## otftch (Jan 22, 2009)

I re-read that three times to get it right.Still missed wingtips.Thanks for the correction.
Ed


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## SoD Stitch (Jan 22, 2009)

otftch said:


> The Bearcat climbed like "a bat out of h....." and was super maneuverable.My dad was on the team (USN) that evaluated new aircraft. on one flight, when
> only one wing came off because of the explosive bolt failure,the pilot was still able to land safely.I once read ,but cannot verify,that in tests against a P-51 when the '51 reached altitude the Bearcat had already made two firing passes.It was finnally something that could beat the Japanese at thier own game.
> Ed



I also read a possibly apochryphal story about a Bearcat pilot shortly after the War ended who wanted to show what a Bearcat could do vs. a P-51. He was at an airshow (I believe; it might've been a testing facility), and the P-51 was ahead of him in the run-up area at the end of the runway, about to take off. The Bearcat pilot pulled up to the run-up line and waited until the P-51 was about halfway down the runway, when he throttled up to WEP and took off after the P-51. IIRC, the Bearcat was able to catch up with the P-51 by the end of the runway and pass the Mustang like it was standing still. I tried Googling the story, but I can't seem to find it. Does that ring a bell with anyone here?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 22, 2009)

drgondog said:


> How old are you?
> 
> Not "open to reason" because Dick Bong failed to arm the emergency fuel pump (which was there to solve a known problem), lost the primary and then killed himself trying to time the ejection with his rolling P-80 - a la Kinchloe in the F-104A? You think his P-80 had it in for Bong and elected to 'piss him off by failing'??
> 
> How interesting..maybe the P-80 'hates you back' because you 'hate it'..



Nomination for post of the year!  Thanks Bill!


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## SoD Stitch (Jan 22, 2009)

Soren said:


> Since this is about a/c which didn't make it into the war, the Go-229 is definitely a candidate and the He-162C D were both really promising designs as-well. Another candidate would be the Jumo 004E equipped Me-262 which was very close to becoming a reality in WW2, the engine being ready by the time the war ended, and it would've easily outperformed any Allied project in the works by that time.



I WAS going to vote for the Go 229, but I believe they would've run into some lateral stability issues with the a/c. Indeed, it was potentially the fastest aircraft of the '40's, especially for '45, due to it's exceptionally clean airframe, but there were no lateral control surfaces, so I believe that uncontrollable lateral instability would've raised it's ugly head, and killed quite a few pilots before a solution was devised. IMO, the issue of lateral instability hadn't really been satisfactorily solved until the advent of high-speed SAS's and fly-by-wire controls, as used on the B-2.


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## drgondog (Jan 22, 2009)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Nomination for post of the year!  Thanks Bill!



Chris - I really didn't mean to thump his nose - it just struck me as 'pouting' over an inanimate object - I mean, get mad at Lockheed for building perhaps the best USAAF airplane of WWII and the fighter that ushered in the dawn of a new age for US airpower.

Clay - I apologise for any perceived insult.. I'm just a cranky 'old guy' and your comment struck me as 'odd'. Any one that picks Bobby Lane for an avatar has to be cool.


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## davparlr (Jan 22, 2009)

SoD Stitch said:


> I WAS going to vote for the Go 229, but I believe they would've run into some lateral stability issues with the a/c. Indeed, it was potentially the fastest aircraft of the '40's, especially for '45, due to it's exceptionally clean airframe, but there were no lateral control surfaces, so I believe that uncontrollable lateral instability would've raised it's ugly head, and killed quite a few pilots before a solution was devised. IMO, the issue of lateral instability hadn't really been satisfactorily solved until the advent of high-speed SAS's and fly-by-wire controls, as used on the B-2.



I am sure that there were lateral control surfaces present, probably split flaps on the wing tip ala B-35/49, however, lateral stability was zero. I agree that there was problems not known. The aircraft had not undergone stall testing, stability testing, single engine performance, etc. I think the plane, while very advanced, was three to five years and many modifications away from operations.


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## Clay_Allison (Jan 23, 2009)

drgondog said:


> How old are you?
> 
> Not "open to reason" because Dick Bong failed to arm the emergency fuel pump (which was there to solve a known problem), lost the primary and then killed himself trying to time the ejection with his rolling P-80 - a la Kinchloe in the F-104A? You think his P-80 had it in for Bong and elected to 'piss him off by failing'??
> 
> How interesting..maybe the P-80 'hates you back' because you 'hate it'..


It would have been awesome for the country if the Ace of Aces had survived the war, being killed as a test pilot on an aircraft that was almost immediately surpassed by the F-86 just seemed like a total waste.

I'm just admitting that I'm prejudiced. I still think the meteor is a better plane. Going Twin Engine on a new type of aircraft IE the Gloster Meteor and the Me 262 seems so much safer and saner.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Jan 23, 2009)

Agree. Though the F-86 only had one engine, and it truly was a marvel.

Sadly, another pilot less well known than Bong, George S. Welch, died testing the F-100 Super Sabre. 
Maybe it's bad luck why several WWII USAAF veterans died testing new aircraft. 

About the Go 229, doesn't it look like something from outer space? I bet if it had flown over the battlefields of WWII, people would have thought they were seeing aliens!


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## Clay_Allison (Jan 23, 2009)

Test pilots must be the bravest, craziest guys on earth. It's not "If" one kills you, it's "when".

By the way, I love the Westland Whirlwind, with better engines it would have been awesome and really changed the course of the war.


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## Soren (Jan 23, 2009)

Regarding the Go-299, 

The lateral stability issues were actually solved to a satisfying degree, BUT lateral stability wasn't as good as with conventional a/c ofcourse, the flyingwing design tempting to slide in strong side winds. But nonetheless the Horten team had solved the problem to a satisfying degree. 

Several flight handling tests had been made with the Go-229 airframe, both without engines and with a piston engined and finally a jet engined version, and it performed very well in turns (it was infact that was its strong side, it could turn on a dime and exhibited very nice stalling characteristic) and in flight in general. But landing and taking off in hard wind conditions was going to be a problem, and it would definitely require well trained pilots to properly operate the a/c, something the LW was in a serious lack of in late 44 to 45.

The Horten IX V2, which undertook two very successfull testflights demonstrating great handling qualities in maneuvers. However during the third test flight which was meant to test the top speed, where speeds of well over 800 km/h was reached, disaster struck as one engine failed, the a/c crashing and killing the pilot:

















So the a/c was definitely not a long way from becoming operational, but the lack of properly trained pilots would've proven just as big a problem as it did with all other a/c in service. You can have the best equipment in the world, but it means nothing if you don't have personnel which can properly use it.


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## Venganza (Jan 23, 2009)

Soren said:


> You can have the best equipment in the world, but it means nothing if you don't have personnel which can properly use it.



Well put, Soren. I've always thought about what you said above, when the discussion on these threads turns to what if the Germans had built this plane or they had built that plane, what would have happened. I don't think it would have ultimately mattered what planes they had in 1945 - they didn't have the fuel and you can't build experienced pilots.

Venganza


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## syscom3 (Jan 23, 2009)

> That would have been one heckofa aileron effectiveness!!



The Bearcat originally had a safety feature where the wingtips that broke off under a certain G-Load.

I dont know if that feature made it to production though.


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## drgondog (Jan 23, 2009)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> Agree. Though the F-86 only had one engine, and it truly was a marvel.
> 
> Sadly, another pilot less well known than Bong, George S. Welch, died testing the F-100 Super Sabre.
> Maybe it's bad luck why several WWII USAAF veterans died testing new aircraft.



Fighter aircraft of the late 40-60's timeframe were inherently dangerous. As an air force brat I knew many friends whose fathers dies flying F-100/F-89/F-86D/F-101/F-104. Not to mention all the guys at Edwards.

I watched my father narrowly escape from an F-86D in 1952 at Eglin, as my mother and I watched from control tower at Eglin Main. 

That is why I reacted a little bit to Clay. Guys died because of the aircraft and guys died because they made mistakes - but guys died all the time.


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## drgondog (Jan 23, 2009)

syscom3 said:


> The Bearcat originally had a safety feature where the wingtips that broke off under a certain G-Load.
> 
> I dont know if that feature made it to production though.



Syscom - it did. The Bearcat was designed to a lower limit load (7.5 g) than the other conventional fighters (except P-51H).

I believe that feature was removed when a ground crew was killed as well as a couple of F8F lost in pullout in bombing passes.

The wing tips were designed to blow before the main spar theoretically failed, reducing the aero distribution at extreme outboard location. Strange concept


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## SoD Stitch (Jan 23, 2009)

drgondog said:


> Syscom - it did. The Bearcat was designed to a lower limit load (7.5 g) than the other conventional fighters (except P-51H).
> 
> I believe that feature was removed when a ground crew was killed as well as a couple of F8F lost in pullout in bombing passes.
> 
> The wing tips were designed to blow before the main spar theoretically failed, reducing the aero distribution at extreme outboard location. Strange concept



Another problem that came about because of the "detachable" wingtips was that sometimes one wingtip would detach and the other wouldn't, sending the a/c into a quick roll; if you were at altitude, this wasn't a problem, but low down it was.


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## Waynos (Jan 24, 2009)

Test pilots died all over the world when pushing the boundaries. I have the books of a few who survived such as Lithgow, Henshaw, Quill, Beaumont etc and they all have their tragic stories in them as well as the triumphs of the individuals. 

Possibly one of the most infamous events is when John Derry of De Havilland died when his DH 110 (the proto-Sea Vixen) broke up in the air at the Farnborough Air Show killing many spectators too. Incredibly the show went on and despite seeing the death of his friend only moments earlier the great Neville Duke took off immediately and displayed the Hunter prototype, remarkable breed.


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## renrich (Jan 25, 2009)

There was a rather famous pilot out of Gunnison, Colorado, named Rocky Warren who did a lot of flying all around the world. I knew him fairly well and he told me one day that each pilot got a sack of chances. Each time you took off you reached into the sack and threw out a chance and when you took off in bad weather or at night you threw out several chances. One day you would reach in and there were no more chances.


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