# Hitler's Assassination



## RabidAlien (Aug 23, 2008)

I've been really curious about this for a long time now, and was wondering what sort of thoughts others have: how would WW2 have played out if the July '44 assassination attempt against Hitler had succeeded?


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## ccheese (Aug 23, 2008)

There were many attempts.

I really believe it all would depend on what year he was assassinated.
The "outcome" would probably been different if he were killed in 1942,
than in 1944.

Charles


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## Juha (Aug 23, 2008)

Rabid
Quote: " Rommel takes over as planned"
Planned by who? It's not clear how much Rommel knew on 20 July 44 plot and anyway he was at that time in hospital critically wounded.

Juha


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## RabidAlien (Aug 23, 2008)

Rommel knew of the assassination plot. And while he couldn't bring himself to actively conspire to kill the elected leader of his country, he agreed that something had to be done. The members of the plot had asked Rommel to take over after Hitler was gone, and Rommel agreed. When the plot failed, Hitler couldn't openly arrest and execute Rommel, because he was not an active participant, so the SS "arrested" Rommel and, while taking him in for questioning, gave him a vial of poison (the gentleman's way out). Rommel never made it to the SS headquarters. (all this from Desmond Young's book, "Rommel", and various other sources I can't remember off the top of my head). I've always admired Rommel, and have often wondered what the outcome would've been if the July '44 attempt had succeeded (edited original post to add date, thanks for pointing that out, CCheese!).


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 23, 2008)

RabidAlien said:


> Rommel knew of the assassination plot. And while he couldn't bring himself to actively conspire to kill the elected leader of his country, he agreed that something had to be done.



That is all really disputed. I have spoken with Rommels son on many occasions and he says that his fathers knowledge of the plot was very vague and that it was never planned for Rommel to take over the Reich at any time.


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## Amsel (Aug 23, 2008)

I can tell you what I wish happened. That the U.S. and Germany reached an agreement and kicked the communists out of Europe and overthrew the bolsheviks.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 23, 2008)

Amsel said:


> I can tell you what I wish happened. That the U.S. and Germany reached an agreement and kicked the communists out of Europe and overthrew the bolsheviks.



 

How would that have changed Hitlers tyranical policy, and the holocaust. Think about it...


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## Thorlifter (Aug 23, 2008)

Chris, you know Rommel's son? His son must be in his 70's by now, right?

Anything else you can tell us about what his son said about his father?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 23, 2008)

Thorlifter said:


> Chris, you know Rommel's son? His son must be in his 70's by now, right?
> 
> Anything else you can tell us about what his son said about his father?



I do not know him as a friend or anything, but I have met him on many occasions. He is actually in his late 80s now. I spoke to him at several memorials for his father at the grave site of his father, once in his office when he was mayor of Stuttgart, and once when he was the guest of honor (along with several members of the Afrika Korps Members Foundation (I am not sure wha it is actually called) at our Military Ball. The last time I talked to him, he gave me a color photo of his father in his uniform in North Africa. He actually served for a little bit in the Wehrmacht, a few months after his father was forced to commit suicide he actually went AWOL from the military.

What kind of info would you like to know? Everything he pretty much told me about his father, is what is readily available in books and on the internet.


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## Amsel (Aug 23, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> How would that have changed Hitlers tyranical policy, and the holocaust. Think about it...



I thought Hitler was supposedly assasinated in the poll, I did think about it. So roll your eyes like my daughters did when they were younger.

Stalin was a little more tyrannical and killed many more people then Hitler did. It would have been in our best interest to stamp out communism then.


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## renrich (Aug 23, 2008)

I believe that if the assasination attempt in 1944 had succeeded the Third Reich would have been in chaos with a number of leaders trying to take control. I don't believe that Rommel would have wound up as the chancellor(?) but the net effect would have been that the war in Europe would have ended sooner with many lives on both sides saved.


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## Konigstiger205 (Aug 23, 2008)

In 1944 it was already to late to change the outcome of the war, but who knows maybe if someone who wasn't nazi would have taken the power, then Germany would probably have tried to fight off the Russians at the expense of the Western front. Anyway the war would have ended much sooner with Hitler dead and countless lives would have been saved.


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## JugBR (Aug 23, 2008)

other:

the assassination of hitler is keep in secret by the nazi party and their propaganda machine makes the people believes he still alive but sick. maybe pneumonia, or flu...

the masterminds of assassination attempt are killed, the history follows the same course.


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## Juha (Aug 23, 2008)

Rabid
the planned president was Beck, CoGS up to 38 and the planned Chancellor was a civilian, G...something, also for ex Hoeppner, the in Dec 41 sacked commander of 4th PzA, was active participant and clearly waited to get a very high military post after successfull coup. And anyway Rommel was critically wounded a few days before the assasination attempt. 

My guess is that there would have first chaos but Nazis would have got upper hand rather soon being more single minded and more ruthless, also most of the army would not have understood the plotters. How Nazis would have chose the new leader, I don't know but after the war neo nazis would have been much bigger problem with clear proof for yhe stab into back theory. Allied would have used the initial chaos for their advantage but how much that would have shorten the war, at least some weeks maybe a couple months.

Juha


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## JugBR (Aug 23, 2008)

Juha said:


> Rabid
> the planned president was Beck, CoGS up to 38 and the planned Chancellor was a civilian, G...something, also for ex Hoeppner, the in Dec 41 sacked commander of 4th PzA, was active participant and clearly waited to get a very high military post after successfull coup. And anyway Rommel was critically wounded a few days before the assasination attempt.
> 
> My guess is that there would have first chaos but Nazis would have got upper hand rather soon being more single minded and more ruthless, also most of the army would not have understood the plotters. *How Nazis would have chose the new leader, I don't know* but after the war neo nazis would have been much bigger problem with clear proof for yhe stab into back theory. Allied would have used the initial chaos for their advantage but how much that would have shorten the war, at least some weeks maybe a couple months.
> ...



juha, i think hermann goering would be the new leader.


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## fly boy (Aug 23, 2008)

i would love if the brit sniper team killed hitler in 42 if it happended then we would just have to send in troops form russa and pwn


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## RabidAlien (Aug 23, 2008)

Granted, someone should've taken Hitler out in '38, spared us all alot of grief.

The reason for my question, and in particular the use of Rommel as future leader of Germany, comes from Desmond Young's "Rommel" (also reprinted as "Rommel: The Desert Fox" in paperback), pg 222: _" 'I went on to say to him,' continued Strolin, 'that he was our greatest and most popular general and more respected abroad than any other. "You are the only one," I said, "who can prevent civil war in Germany You must lend your name to the movement." I did not tell him that it was proposed to make him President of the Reich: the idea was not, in fact, suggested until I returned and had a talk with Goerdeler, and I don't think he ever heard of it until the last day of his life."_

So even if Rommel wasn't directly involved or even actively supporting the attempt on Hitler, what would've happened had he become the new leader?


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## fly boy (Aug 23, 2008)

that would be fun if we had 45 stuff in sep 39


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 23, 2008)

RabidAlien said:


> So even if Rommel wasn't directly involved or even actively supporting the attempt on Hitler, what would've happened had he become the new leader?




He would not have. He never really wanted to get involved in politics. He was a military commander and nothing else.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 23, 2008)

Amsel said:


> I thought Hitler was supposedly assasinated in the poll, I did think about it. So roll your eyes like my daughters did when they were younger.



I will roll my eyes, when you do not make your posts clear!

Understand??!!


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## JugBR (Aug 23, 2008)

i dont agree with the theory that kill hitler before 39 would avoid the war.


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## kool kitty89 (Aug 23, 2008)

Now maybe if it happened back in '32...


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## Amsel (Aug 23, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I will roll my eyes, when you do not make your posts clear!
> 
> Understand??!!



I understand that you are a moderator and a senior member so I will reserve judgement of your response to my post. Though I was only slightly offended by your manners I apoligize if I have caused offense to you in someway.


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## JugBR (Aug 24, 2008)

kool kitty89 said:


> Now maybe if it happened back in '32...



even in 32, because i think the nazi party was more than hitler. they had himmler, goering, and most important, the genius of propaganda goebbels.

a hitler killed in 32, would be a hitler martir, for the nazis. a re-born aryan god, sitting a side with odin, thor and wotan, following the ethnical/cultural/national "salad" of nazi ideology.

a hitler killed in 32, would means also a more eficient german warmachine. since the nazi leader of ww2 would have the good-sence to dont intervent over military issues, as hitler did many times and did wrong, for the lucky of england and ussr specially.

i think the answer to avoid the ww2 was the allies should adopt more strong positions against germany when they started to build their weapons, instead what really happened, that nazis used the weakness of western political positions as them strong.

wasnt churchill that said the peacemakers are usually the ones who throw meat to the lion, expecting they would be the last to be eaten ? england and france should be strong at the time when german warmachine was just in papers.

of course churchill did a little bit the same(throw meat to the lion) with soviet union, closing the eyes for the invasions, of poland, baltic states and finland, but at that time was a matter of surviving isnt ?

and also stalin did the same with germans, triyng to be the last to be eaten by the german lion. when ribbentropp-molotov treaty was signed, the future of poland was defined, by hitler and stalin. even if england and france adopted more bolder actions at that time, after the treaty signed and before the polish invasion, allies would had some chance to decrease the time of war. but in 39, the german warfare and their thatics was already the most modern of the world.


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## kool kitty89 (Aug 24, 2008)

What do you think would have happened if Hitler was killed back in '25 or '26 and Gregor Strasser was there instead.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Aug 24, 2008)

I have no idea. Perhaps he would have blundered more than Hitler did?


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## Juha (Aug 24, 2008)

Rabid
I recommended a bit newer book than that of almost 60 years old Young's book and a book which main subject is the July plot, not a person X.

Juha


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 24, 2008)

Just got done watching a good documentary on German TV (It was actually a BBC documentary though) on the different attempts to kill Hitler.

Here are the ones they talked about in the documentary:

Someone fired shots at Hitler at the Hoffbrau Haus in July 1921 in Munich, Germany. 

Someone fired shots at the Train Car that Hitler was riding in on March, 15, 1932 in Munich, Germany.

Hitlers car was fired upon in an ambush at a cross roads in Stralsund in June of 1932.

Shots were fired at Hitler in Nuernberg, Germany July, 30, 1932.

A bomb was planted to kill Hitler in Köningsberg, Germany on March 4, 1933.

An SA officer is arrested shortly before he attempted to shoot Hitler in Obersalzberg in June of 1933.

Helmut Hirsch attempted to kill Hitler with a bomb in Nuernberg, Germany in 1936. This one however is not confirmed. Hirsch did admit to doing so, but he was most likely under duress.

Josef Thomas attempted to shoot Hitler and Goering in Berlin, Germany in November 1937.

Maurice Bavaud attempted to shoot Hitler in Berlin, Germany in July 1938.

Georg Elser planted at bomb at Bürgerbräukeller in Munich, Germany on November 8, 1938. The bomb went off at 21:20 but Hitler left at 21:07...8 people were killed after the bomb went off.

Dr Erich Kordt attempted to shoot Hitler on November 11, 1939 in Berlin, Germany.

Oberleutnant d. R. Fritz-Dietlof Graf von der Schulenburg, Dr Eugen Gerstenmaier had attempted to shoot Hitler in July 1940 in Paris, France.

Major Friedrich König attempted to shoot Hitler in Smolensk, Russia in March 1943.

Generalmajor Henning von Tresckow, Leutnant Fabian von Schlabrendorff, Oberst Rudolf-Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff placed a bomb in the Fw 200 plane that was flying Hitler back to Berlin from Smolensk in March 1943. The bomb failed to explode.

Oberst Rudolf-Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff planted a bomb that failed to explode in Berlin, Germany on 13 March 1943.

Hauptmann Axel Freiherr von dem Busche-Streithorst planted a bomb at the Wolfschanze in December 1943. Hitler did not show up.

Ewald von Kleist planted a bomb at the Wolfschanze in January 1944. Hitler did not show up.

Hauptmann Eberhard von Breitenbuch attempted to shoot Hitler in Obersalzberg on 11 March 1944.

Oberst Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg attempted to plant a bomb at Obersalzberg on July 6, 1944.

Oberst Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg attempted to plant a bomb at Obersalzberg on July 11, 1944.

Oberst Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg planted a bomb at the Wolfschanze on July 20, 1944. Bomb exploded but only wounded Hitler.


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## renrich (Aug 24, 2008)

Very interesting Chris! Proves two things; a number of people did not like Hitler and they were not adept at planning an assasination.


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## RabidAlien (Aug 24, 2008)

Juha said:


> Rabid
> I recommended a bit newer book than that of almost 60 years old Young's book and a book which main subject is the July plot, not a person X.
> 
> Juha



Got another one on my to-be-read shelf, haven't dug down to it yet. 

Good list there, Adler! I knew of a few attempts at Hitler, but not that many of em!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 24, 2008)

renrich said:


> Very interesting Chris! Proves two things; a number of people did not like Hitler and they were not adept at planning an assasination.



Those are just a small amount of the attempts on his life. There are an estimated 20 to 30 more that are not listed in that list. I only listed the ones they talked about in the documentary this morning.

I would not say they were poor at planning but that it was really hard to plan anything. Hitler was a very unpredictable man. He would change his plans at the very last minute and he was a difficult man to get to. A lot of those attempts failed because of bad luck. The bomb would not explode, Hitler would leave 15 minutes before the bomb went off, the shooter would get wrestled to the ground and the bullets would not hit there mark...


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## merlin (Aug 24, 2008)

The Allies didn't trust the plotters, they could not offer them anything other than unconditional surrender that was already required. It is quite possible though that the Germans Kluge Rommel would have conducted an orderly withdrawal in the West. Meanwhile, trying to hold off the Russians in the East so as to evacuate from Eastern Germany as many as possible.
The only assistance I could see the Allies giving is a reduction in the 'City' bombing. 
Though perhaps once the Allies reach the Rhine they would have to halt to let their supplies to catch up (like the Red Army did at the Vistula while Warsaw revolted).


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## renrich (Aug 24, 2008)

One would think that a good hand with a scoped rifle and if he was willing to sacrifise his own life could have taken Hitler out.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 24, 2008)

renrich said:


> One would think that a good hand with a scoped rifle and if he was willing to sacrifise his own life could have taken Hitler out.



We were not there. It is easy for us 70 years later to sit back and judge these brave men who did give there lives (almost all of them were cought and killed) to try and kill this *******.


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## renrich (Aug 24, 2008)

Of course, no one knew before it was too late where his policies would lead. It says something that as many attempts on his life were made. It is said that if someone in the US wants to take the president's life he can but will lose his. May not be as easy as thought.


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## JugBR (Aug 24, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> We were not there. It is easy for us 70 years later to sit back and judge these brave men who did give there lives (almost all of them were cought and killed) to try and kill this *******.



and all of those that attempt to kill hitler in the course of war, was elder oficials isnt ? because the new ones was more closer of nazi party.

the hate against hitler was born in the very decisive days of invasion of russia and afrika korps. the oficers just cant stand and see their soldiers die by hitler´s bloopers over military strategy !

but that bloopers was very important for the defeat of germany, specially in the siege of leningrad(a fake siege in fact) and the battle for stalingrad.

in leningrad for example hitler changed plans 3 or 4 times, the army group north was sacrified by his puny knowloge of war strategy. he also relegates guderian to a minor role in the whole invasion of russia. guderian, the guy who invented the blitzkrieg.

a controversial point: if nazi party would took the power in germany, one way or another, the assassination of hitler would be a wrong action, since hitler was in great part responsible for the failures of german arned forces in ww2


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## SoD Stitch (Aug 24, 2008)

JugBR said:


> juha, i think hermann goering would be the new leader.



Disagree; I think Himmler would've tried to put himself forward as leader of the new Reich. If you read Albert Speer's book, _Infiltration_, he makes a case for Himmler having plans to take over as soon as Hitler kicked off; this would've just speeded things up a bit.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 25, 2008)

I agree Himmler would have taken power. I think that if the war had dragged on, Himmler would have tried anyhow.


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## renrich (Aug 25, 2008)

I believe there were many higher ups in the Third Reich who were horrified at where Hitler had led their country and would have liked to rectify the situation. Obviously some tried and failed. There are good people with good intentions in every country.


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## Messy1 (Aug 25, 2008)

Originally Posted by JugBR View Post
_"juha, i think hermann goering would be the new leader."_


Goering was I believed looked down as a failure by 44. His mis management of the Luftwaffe had lost the BoB, his empty promises to Hitler during the war had lost him favor not only with Hitler, but most of the German Military staff. Goering had neither the following, nor the reputation at this time to replace Hitler. Regardless, the only sensible action for Hitlers replacement was hoping to negotiate for a peace settlement. That was the main reason for trying to kill Hitler, not for one mans power gains, or delusions of granduer, but to try to salvage as much of Germany as they could. Most of the Higher ups in the Government and military at this point new Germany could not win this war. But some part of Germany may be salvaged and preserved.


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## timshatz (Aug 25, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Just got done watching a good documentary on German TV (It was actually a BBC documentary though) on the different attempts to kill Hitler.
> 
> Here are the ones they talked about in the documentary:
> 
> ...



Jeez! This guy had more lives than a friggin' cat. Way more. Very unpredictable and pretty cagy. Heard Saddam was the same way, always changing his plans and going in a different direction. Must be a dictator thing. 

I had no idea there were that many attempts at killing Hitler. Suprised by how many military types tried to do it. Definitely puts a crimp in the idea that the Germans were all mindless robots. 

But back to the poll. Hitler's death makes no real difference. The Western Allies knew they'd made a mistake by not occupying Germany in total after WW1. It allowed the "Stab in the Back" nonsense to gain ground by allowing some to say the Kaiser's Army to march back to Germany, saying it was undermined at home. The Western Allies wanted to destroy the German Army to prove to it that it was defeated. That was their goal from the start. 

As far as the Russians were concerned, Hilter was bad, Goering was bad, Himmler was bad, all of them will be killed, what's the difference if it was Hitler or Goering or Himmler in charge? They were coming anyway and they were going to march all the way to Berlin. 

Hitler's death in July of 44 might've extended the war a bit (the Ardennes Offensive doesn't happen) or it might've shortened it (Germany falls apart under the pressure of the Allied onslaught and Nazi party infighting). But the end result was a totally defeated Germany.


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## The Basket (Aug 25, 2008)

If the July 20 plot had worked then Himmler would have been the new guy.

In the 30s it would have been Goering.

In my view Nazism was Hitler and with him gone then the whole thing would fell apart and probably a German civil war between the army and the SS if the July plot had worked.

Doenitz at Nuremburg once joked that all he did as Leader was end the war and now he was going to be hanged for it!


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## Graeme (Aug 26, 2008)

Unlikely that he can prove it, but Waterkeyn believes that there were probably "*hundreds* of attempts to kill him (Hitler)."


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## JugBR (Aug 26, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I agree Himmler would have taken power. I think that if the war had dragged on, Himmler would have tried anyhow.



i disagree because goering was a war hero and also a very popular men. the facist leaders are always very carismatic people, like hitler, franco or mussolini. also goering was the commander in chief of luftwaffe, the president of nazi party and also the second in command of III reich. 

he even could be manipulated in the background by himmler, but i cant see any profit, after nazi take the power, make an internal struggle for power.


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## Messy1 (Aug 26, 2008)

I have to disagree. From what I understand, by this point, Goering had lost much favor with Hitler, and the rest of the Nazi party and military staff. He was not as widely respected as you make him out to be. His failure to deal with the bombing raids as Head of the Luftwaffe, (weather or not it was his doing) left a bad taste in people's mouths. His unfulfilled promises about delaing with the Allies had gone unfilled.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 26, 2008)

JugBR said:


> i disagree because goering was a war hero and also a very popular men. the facist leaders are always very carismatic people, like hitler, franco or mussolini. also goering was the commander in chief of luftwaffe, the president of nazi party and also the second in command of III reich.
> 
> he even could be manipulated in the background by himmler, but i cant see any profit, after nazi take the power, make an internal struggle for power.



Actually he was not all that loved. He was viewed as a fat pill popping ass hole by many. They just never viewed their opinion, because it was not a healthy thing to do.

Also you are forgetting the fact that Himmler was in control of the SS, Gestapo and all police and security forces. It would be to easy for him to take power if Hitler was assassinated.


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## SoD Stitch (Aug 27, 2008)

JugBR said:


> i disagree because goering was a war hero and also a very popular men. the facist leaders are always very carismatic people, like hitler, franco or mussolini. also goering was the commander in chief of luftwaffe, the president of nazi party and also the second in command of III reich.
> 
> he even could be manipulated in the background by himmler, but i cant see any profit, after nazi take the power, make an internal struggle for power.



It doesn't matter if you're popular or not, this is a police state we're talking about, not a democracy; Himmler had control of the _Abwehr_ (indirectly, through Canaris), the _Geheime Staatspolizei_ (Gestapo), the _Sicherheitdienst_ (SD; after Heydrich's death), and the _Schutzstaffel_ (SS), so it doesn't really matter what anybody thought, he'd just clamp down on society and take over.


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## Maestro (Aug 27, 2008)

SoD Stitch said:


> It doesn't matter if you're popular or not, this is a police state we're talking about, not a democracy; Himmler had control of the _Abwehr_ (indirectly, through Canaris), the _Geheime Staatspolizei_ (Gestapo), the _Sicherheitdienst_ (SD; after Heydrich's death), and the _Schutzstaffel_ (SS), so it doesn't really matter what anybody thought, he'd just clamp down on society and take over.



Just noticed that thread and thought I should jump in.

Excuse my ignorance, but I never heard of the SD before... What were they doing exactly ?

Anyway, I think it would have been a struggle between Rommel, Goering and Himmler...

Goering was the president of the Nazi Party and technically the second in command, Rommel was saw as being the best to defend the Reich properly and Himmler had command over all police forces... So it would have been an easy task for Himmler to order the execution of anybody standing against him.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Aug 27, 2008)

I think Goering would have botched up the Reich worse than Hitler did. At least in the air war, which was what he was even best at. Rommel would be needed or some experienced general to lead the German army.


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## SoD Stitch (Aug 27, 2008)

Maestro said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but I never heard of the SD before... What were they doing exactly ?



The _Sicherheitdienst_ (SD) was the SS's own secret intelligence service, originally formed in 1932 under the infamous Reinhardt Heydrich; it was the sole intelligence organization of the NSDAP. In many ways, it duplicated the efforts of the Abwehr (another example of Germany's needless duplication of efforts under Hitler).


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 27, 2008)

Maestro said:


> Just noticed that thread and thought I should jump in.
> 
> Excuse my ignorance, but I never heard of the SD before... What were they doing exactly ?



The Sicherheitsdienst was basically an intelligence service of the SS and the Nazi party.



Maestro said:


> Anyway, I think it would have been a struggle between Rommel, Goering and Himmler...
> 
> Goering was the president of the Nazi Party and technically the second in command, Rommel was saw as being the best to defend the Reich properly and Himmler had command over all police forces... So it would have been an easy task for Himmler to order the execution of anybody standing against him.



Rommel would not have been involved with any power struggle. He had no desire to be a part of politics, he was a soldier and not a politician.


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## timshatz (Aug 27, 2008)

Keep in mind that whoever takes over, by the Summer of 44, all the major events that setup the final period of the war had already happened. The Battle of Kursk had been fought, Normandy had been invaded, the U-boat threat was supressed (if not over) and the Luftwaffe had been devistated. 

No personality was going to change the essential truth that Germany had lost the war and it was simply a matter of time and details how that end came. They had lost the initiative. Local offensives by the Wermacht did nothing more than hurry the end by squandering resources. 

By the Summer of '44, it was a case of re-arrainging the deck chairs on the Titanic.


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## Messy1 (Aug 27, 2008)

I do not think there was too many people wanting to make a grab for power and oust Hitler for personal reasons at this point. The was was all but lost by this time, there was not much power left for anyone at this point. 

Keep in mind that if the war had not been lost, and Germany's future set by this point, there may not have been a attempt on Hitler's life. The main reason I think for the assassination attempts on Hitlers life was because many in the military and government could see that Hitler would not stop until there was nothing left of Germany to save, and they were trying save what was left of Germany.

Taking over Germany at this time would have been like taking over as captain of the Titanic a few hours after it hit the iceberg!


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## Freebird (Aug 28, 2008)

RabidAlien said:


> I've been really curious about this for a long time now, and was wondering what sort of thoughts others have: how would WW2 have played out if the July '44 assassination attempt against Hitler had succeeded?



Shouldn't you have another option, signs armistice with US/UK and keeps fighting only in the east?



merlin said:


> The Allies didn't trust the plotters, they could not offer them anything other than unconditional surrender that was already required. It is quite possible though that the Germans Kluge Rommel would have conducted an orderly withdrawal in the West. Meanwhile, trying to hold off the Russians in the East so as to evacuate from Eastern Germany as many as possible.
> The only assistance I could see the Allies giving is a reduction in the 'City' bombing.
> Though perhaps once the Allies reach the Rhine they would have to halt to let their supplies to catch up (like the Red Army did at the Vistula while Warsaw revolted).



Not so sure Merlin. Churchill would have thought very carefully about an offer, with Hitler dead then his # 1 target would be Stalin.

Suppose the Army had taken over {Beck etc} and had acted quickly to grab the top Nazis {were Himmler Goering there on July 20?} They would blame the whole mess on the top Nazi's, and offer an armictice of:

1.) withdraw to 1939 borders
2.) all combat cease in the west
3.) turn over all top Nazis
4.) agree to democratic elections.

Roosevelt would probably object, but Churchill would very much like to eliminate communism as well as the Nazis.

If the Germans offered to withdraw to 1939 borders, the Russians would either accept or invade Poland to fight the Germans. 

For the Allies it offers the chance to salvage Poland Czechoslovakia, which otherwise will be sucked into the Soviet orbit


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## Maestro (Aug 28, 2008)

SoD Stitch said:


> The _Sicherheitdienst_ (SD) was the SS's own secret intelligence service, originally formed in 1932 under the infamous Reinhardt Heydrich; it was the sole intelligence organization of the NSDAP. In many ways, it duplicated the efforts of the Abwehr (another example of Germany's needless duplication of efforts under Hitler).





DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The Sicherheitsdienst was basically an intelligence service of the SS and the Nazi party.



Thanks for the info.



DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Rommel would not have been involved with any power struggle. He had no desire to be a part of politics, he was a soldier and not a politician.



May be... But what if the army took power over the Nazi party ? Rommel could have been put there by their leader ? Kind of an "unvoluntary election", no ? Just wondering...


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## Maestro (Aug 28, 2008)

freebird said:


> Shouldn't you have another option, signs armistice with US/UK and keeps fighting only in the east?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think so... It is recorded that (after the death of Hitler in 1945) Jodl offered to surrender to the American, British and French... But not to the Russians. An offer that was turned down by the Western Allies... "This is not acceptable. You must surrender on all fronts." ...That's what they replied.

Jodl was then given 24 (or was it 48 ?) hours to think about it... When he came back he signed the unconditionnal surrender of the IIIrd Reich.


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## timshatz (Aug 28, 2008)

The Nazis always had this pipe dream that they'd make peace with the Western Allies and get them to join in a war against the Soviets. Never going to happen. 

But then again, the Nazis were full of idealogy and theories that were crap anyway (Aryan Blood, Jews as the perpetrators of the "Stab in the Back", Slavs as lessor peoples, ect).


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## RabidAlien (Aug 28, 2008)

Maybe I'm just missing something (which is very likely), but I still picture Rommel as a German patriot, someone who would have temporarily stepped in to handle the military side of Germany, while leaving the civilian side to someone else or taking advice from various trusted civilian individuals. Even given the gross mismanagement of materials by Hitler, I think he could have still gotten the right stuff to the right people, put the right armies in the right spots, and really given the Allies one hell of a bloody nose. Sure, the Titanic was sinking...but he would've had the foresight to take the pumps and pull them out of the ocean and put them back into the flooded holds to gain some more time for more folks to survive.

I, too, think that, had an Armistice been signed, Russia would not have kept their agreement in some part, which would have given Germany (and Churchill) the opportunity to invade Russia again. This time with only one front to worry about, and someone like Rommel at the helm...


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## SoD Stitch (Aug 28, 2008)

Maestro said:


> I don't think so... It is recorded that (after the death of Hitler in 1945) Jodl offered to surrender to the American, British and French... But not to the Russians. An offer that was turned down by the Western Allies... "This is not acceptable. You must surrender on all fronts." ...That's what they replied.
> 
> Jodl was then given 24 (or was it 48 ?) hours to think about it... When he came back he signed the unconditionnal surrender of the IIIrd Reich.



I seem to remember reading that, also. The Germans really wanted to surrender to the Western Allies, not the Russians; they knew what would happen if they had to surrender to the Russians (which they did). At the end of the War, any every German soldier that could, made over to the Western side of the lines to surrender to the Western Allies. Many of the POW's who made it over to the Western side and surrendered to the British, French, Canadian or US forces were subsequently handed over to the Russians if it was discovered that they had been fighting on the Eastern Front.


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## JugBR (Aug 31, 2008)

SoD Stitch said:


> It doesn't matter if you're popular or not, this is a police state we're talking about, not a democracy; Himmler had control of the _Abwehr_ (indirectly, through Canaris), the _Geheime Staatspolizei_ (Gestapo), the _Sicherheitdienst_ (SD; after Heydrich's death), and the _Schutzstaffel_ (SS), so it doesn't really matter what anybody thought, he'd just clamp down on society and take over.





Maestro said:


> Anyway, I think it would have been a struggle between Rommel, Goering and Himmler...
> 
> Goering was the president of the Nazi Party and technically the second in command, Rommel was saw as being the best to defend the Reich properly and Himmler had command over all police forces... So it would have been an easy task for Himmler to order the execution of anybody standing against him.



in fact, was a democracy, because hitler took the power by popular vote. also when he became füeher, how many complains ? you should watch the nunemberg rallys, the facist state´s control the masses by propaganda, by nationalism, not by force. 

also, doesnt matter what himmler controls, göering was the reich-marshall, the second most important position of III reich. its not just go and kill him. there was a hierarchy behinds, there was the image of göering, his historic as german ww1 hero, his work in the nazy party.

himmler, in the words of hitler, was the "frei ignacio de loyola" of III Reich, his mission was to "format" the german and foreign european minds to the nazi douctrin and the SS was the nazi "Soceiety of Jesus" in this picture. i dont think its impossible göering could be influentiated or even manipulated, but he would be the new füeher anyway.

about rommel, was not the most important general in III reich, theres guderian(the father of blitzkrieg), von paulus and many others. all the german generals was great strategists. rommel was the genius that we see more because afrika korps, but i dont think he have the profile to be a fueher, because first, he wasnt very close of nazy leaders and second, because he was described as a very depressive person, wich is not good in politics.



Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> I think Goering would have botched up the Reich worse than Hitler did. At least in the air war, which was what he was even best at. Rommel would be needed or some experienced general to lead the German army.



luftwaffe was the most modern and the most strong airforce in the most part of war. göering not just managed the luftwaffe but was behind the project of ju 87, wich was the symbol of III reich campaign in europe and the symbol of blitzkrieg.



DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Actually he was not all that loved. He was viewed as a fat pill popping ass hole by many. They just never viewed their opinion, because it was not a healthy thing to do.
> 
> Also you are forgetting the fact that Himmler was in control of the SS, Gestapo and all police and security forces. It would be to easy for him to take power if Hitler was assassinated.



some wise words of the fat pill popping ass hole:






too bad people doesnt listened his opinions isnt herr adler ?


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