# The jet age ?



## PWR4360-59B (Oct 4, 2018)

Really some good stuff here.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzsM7H_L6Fk_


Around 9:09 or so he mentions the D zone and the jet age.


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## wuzak (Oct 4, 2018)

Chemtrails? Really?


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## KiwiBiggles (Oct 4, 2018)

wuzak said:


> Chemtrails? Really?


Tinfoil hat time


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## gumbyk (Oct 5, 2018)

I'm just gonna back away slowly...…..


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## PWR4360-59B (Oct 6, 2018)

Yup lets stick our heads in the ground and hum a nice song, that will make things better.


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## wuzak (Oct 6, 2018)

You'll have to spell it out for us that aren't conspiratorially enlightened.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 6, 2018)

Is there really a chemtrail believer on this forum?

Let me guess, flat earth too?


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## PWR4360-59B (Oct 6, 2018)

So how many here watched the video? Its the best I have seen that explains things scientifically.


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## wuzak (Oct 6, 2018)

PWR4360-59B said:


> So how many here watched the video? Its the best I have seen that explains things scientifically.



Seems like conspiracy theory rubbish to me.


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## Airframes (Oct 7, 2018)

One minute in to the video and I'd had enough.
Metals in jet exhausts ??
I smell something, and it isn't ozone !!!

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## Shortround6 (Oct 7, 2018)

Airframes said:


> One minute in to the video and I'd had enough.
> Metals in jet exhausts ??
> I smell something, and it isn't ozone !!!




Male bovine excrement? 
Organic Fertilizer from livestock inhabited real estate?


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## swampyankee (Oct 7, 2018)

Airframes said:


> One minute in to the video and I'd had enough.
> Metals in jet exhausts ??
> I smell something, and it isn't ozone !!!



For neurologically active exhaust, avgas is hard to beat. Check out the affects of lead. They try to keep crap like that out of turbine fuels; they’re bad for the engine.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 7, 2018)

Airframes said:


> One minute in to the video and I'd had enough.
> Metals in jet exhausts ??
> I smell something, and it isn't ozone !!!



I made it to 1:47, then I realized it was posted by someone who thinks it does not take skills to work on turbines.

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## jetcal1 (Oct 7, 2018)

swampyankee said:


> For neurologically active exhaust, avgas is hard to beat. Check out the affects of lead. They try to keep crap like that out of turbine fuels; they’re bad for the engine.


 But the aroma can be so enticing!


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## Graeme (Oct 8, 2018)

PWR4360-59B said:


> So how many here watched the video? Its the best I have seen that explains things scientifically.



I started - but then he mentioned "solutions" at the end of the clip - so I went straight there...
Looks like the only solution is don't fly - in a jet?

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 8, 2018)

_”Don’t like Chemtrails? STOP FLYING!!!”_ 

Glad I did not make it that far.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 8, 2018)

This Message has been brought to you by the International Ocean Liner Association. 
Thanks for watching.

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## wuzak (Oct 8, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> _”Don’t like Chemtrails? STOP FLYING!!!”_
> 
> Glad I did not make it that far.



Same for me.

I actually tried to watch it, but could not after a few minutes. So I jumped to the suggested time, expecting a major expose on why it is the fault of jets, only to find the word "jet" mentioned only briefly.


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## nuuumannn (Oct 8, 2018)

Yeehaaaaa!!!!

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## GrauGeist (Oct 8, 2018)

What a load of sh!t...

On a cold winter morning, my car makes chemtrails, too. The interesting thing about science, is it makes people who try to be "experts", look like complete idiots.

Also a basic understanding of how much room is available in an aircraft after avionics, freight/luggage, passenger and fuel load is nil, add to that (for the "spraying" crowd) the understanding of how much liquid weighs, how much room would be required for the liquid AND the fact that liquids instantly freeze at altitudes that airliners cruise at. For the "heavy metals in the fuel" crowd, the alleged culprits in the fuel are:
Aluminum 
Arsenic
Barium 
Cadmium
Calcium
Cesium
Chromium
Lead
Mercury
Nickel
Thorium
Selenium
Titanium
Silver
Stronthium
Uranium
Now in WHAT universe would ANY engine be capable of functioning with a cocktail of metals in it's fuel function for any length of time? Again, a basic understanding of science and how things work, would show just how stupid the suggestion is. I have challenged several "chemtrail" experts to try running any of these materials in their own vehicle, at quantities that would simulate the alleged exhaust of a chemtrail plane, to prove me wrong and they won't do it - which says volumes.


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## gumbyk (Oct 8, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> What a load of sh!t...
> 
> On a cold winter morning, my car makes chemtrails, too. The interesting thing about science, is it makes people who try to be "experts", look like complete idiots.
> 
> ...


Running that through your engine is a recipe for turbine blade build-up. The lead levels in 100/130 avgas were bad enough for build-up in the spark plugs. 

Glad I didn't waste half an hour of my life on this.

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## tyrodtom (Oct 8, 2018)

Typical flim-flam, lots of partial charts from unknown sources.
Lot's of statements we're supposed to automatically believe just because he says it's so.
Like climate scientist don't travel by air. Oh, really ?
Certain rare metals present in atmospheric samples . Oh, really ?

Like listening to a rabid Star Trek fan try to describe a plasma drive.

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## Shortround6 (Oct 8, 2018)

tyrodtom said:


> Like listening to a rabid Star Trek fan try to describe a plasma drive.



What about the dilithium crystals in the plasma drive contrails in space? 

Hope me coat is next to the tin foil hats..........

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 8, 2018)

tyrodtom said:


> Typical flim-flam, lots of partial charts from unknown sources.
> Lot's of statements we're supposed to automatically believe just because he says it's so.
> Like climate scientist don't travel by air. Oh, really ?
> Certain rare metals present in atmospheric samples . Oh, really ?
> ...



Hey now, I resemble that remark...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 8, 2018)

Shortround6 said:


> What about the dilithium crystals in the plasma drive contrails in space?
> 
> Hope me coat is next to the tin foil hats..........



It’s the way it reacts to the deuterium gas.

We need to stop using warp drives. If you use warp drives, you are not the solution, but part of the problem.


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## wuzak (Oct 8, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> Also a basic understanding of how much room is available in an aircraft after avionics, freight/luggage, passenger and fuel load is nil, add to that (for the "spraying" crowd) the understanding of how much liquid weighs, how much room would be required for the liquid AND the fact that liquids instantly freeze at altitudes that airliners cruise at.



I have seen it suggested that jet engines don't run on fossil fuels, but compressed air instead.

One of the reasons is that they can't figure out how so much fuel can be stored in the wings.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 8, 2018)

Recently had an interesting discussion with a person who was trying to tell me the oceans have risen "over three feet in the past fifty years!!"...and I told them to compare the sea level in a 1942 photo of the USS Arizona's #2 casemate against a present day photo...the water lever is the same (right at the turret's quide) and that's a span of 75+ years.

Their reply was rather typical: "oh, those photos have been doctored by deniers!!"

*palmface*


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## jetcal1 (Oct 8, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> Recently had an interesting discussion with a person who was trying to tell me the oceans have risen "over three feet in the past fifty years!!"...and I told them to compare the sea level in a 1942 photo of the USS Arizona's #2 casemate against a present day photo...the water lever is the same (right at the turret's quide) and that's a span of 75+ years.
> 
> Their reply was rather typical: "oh, those photos have been doctored by deniers!!"
> 
> *palmface*


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## Tieleader (Oct 8, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> Recently had an interesting discussion with a person who was trying to tell me the oceans have risen "over three feet in the past fifty years!!"...and I told them to compare the sea level in a 1942 photo of the USS Arizona's #2 casemate against a present day photo...the water lever is the same (right at the turret's quide) and that's a span of 75+ years.
> 
> Their reply was rather typical: "oh, those photos have been doctored by deniers!!"
> 
> *palmface*


NO,no,no. That's because the great turtle that carries us all on his back just started to spin a little faster over the past century and has thus created a venturi effect on the oceans and thus canceled out the rising levels because of the alien/atlantis/nazi underwater world cities industrial displacement upon the world's water bodies...
Or it could have just been the dolphins doing.

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## nuuumannn (Oct 10, 2018)

Yep, Dave nailed it. Another thing that most people are not aware about with regards to jet engines is that the fuel/air burn at its hottest is hotter than the actual melting point of the metal alloys the engine is made of. The reason why the engine doesn't burn itself is because of labrynthine cooling of components using either air or oil. Boreoscope inspections are carried out to look for the result of hot spots, and stators and rotors often melt because of the heat. This means that any metal in the fuel is gonna burn, baby, burn.

I've worked in the airline industry long enough to know that it's all BS. You can't keep something like that secret from 1,000s of airline employees who build, maintain and operate these aircraft round the world on a daily basis. We joke about it frequently at work, because there are clueless poeple who fall for it round the planet.

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## jetcal1 (Oct 10, 2018)

nuuumannn said:


> Yep, Dave nailed it. Another thing that most people are not aware about with regards to jet engines is that the fuel/air burn at its hottest is hotter than the actual melting point of the metal alloys the engine is made of. The reason why the engine doesn't burn itself is because of labrynthine cooling of components using either air or oil. Boreoscope inspections are carried out to look for the result of hot spots, and stators and rotors often melt because of the heat. This means that any metal in the fuel is gonna burn, baby, burn.
> 
> I've worked in the airline industry long enough to know that it's all BS. You can't keep something like that secret from 1,000s of airline employees who build, maintain and operate these aircraft round the world on a daily basis. We joke about it frequently at work, because there are clueless poeple who fall for it round the planet.


Many eons ago, when as a young man in High School we were taught that occasionally, depending on the cut of the fuel in the early days of jet engines that a copper inhibitor was sometimes added to jet fuel. But, we were also told it was being phased out. I doubt it has been used in the last 40 years.


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## wuzak (Oct 10, 2018)

Never mind that, how do these metallic compounds being emitted by planes flying at 10km affect the atmosphere at 50-100km altitude?


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## GrauGeist (Oct 10, 2018)

This chemtrail nonsense started in the 90's with Art Bell's Coast-to-Coast AM radio program. It was all connected to the snake oil he was selling and since then, has become one of several popular conspiracies. The "chemtrails" allegedly stared in the early 60's.
Also, depending on the "official" website you go to, it's blamed on (pick one) the Trilateral Commission, Zionists, Globalists, Masons, Illuminatti, Rothschilds, World Bank or whatever.
There is always some anonymous government official who's turned over secret documents, but remains nameless for the safety of his family - this also appears to be the same nameless person who's turned over secret documents on geo-engineering, HAARP, the Moon landing hoax and several other ey conspiracies, too. The guy really gets around.

However, contrails were first encountered in WWII over Europe as high-altitude bombers encountered the cold, dry air that the 1,200 degree exhaust reacted with. Chemtrail experts seem to miss that key factor.

And the "heavy metals" raining down from the atmosphere were a little different...
















*Photo Source: ST1000DM003-1ER162*

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## michael rauls (Oct 10, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> Recently had an interesting discussion with a person who was trying to tell me the oceans have risen "over three feet in the past fifty years!!"...and I told them to compare the sea level in a 1942 photo of the USS Arizona's #2 casemate against a present day photo...the water lever is the same (right at the turret's quide) and that's a span of 75+ years.
> 
> Their reply was rather typical: "oh, those photos have been doctored by deniers!!"
> 
> *palmface*


Just to throw this in to bolster the point. I've been fishing on and off in Newport back bay since I was about 13 that would be 40 years ago. At high tide the water still comes up to the same places on the same rocks that were there 40 years ago.

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## jetcal1 (Oct 10, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Just to throw this in to bolster the point. I've been fishing on and off in Newport back bay since I was about 13 that would be 40 years ago. At high tide the water still comes up to the same places on the same rocks that were there 40 years ago.


"a rising tide lifts all rocks"?

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## GrauGeist (Oct 10, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Just to throw this in to bolster the point. I've been fishing on and off in Newport back bay since I was about 13 that would be 40 years ago. At high tide the water still comes up to the same places on the same rocks that were there 40 years ago.


You say "Newport Back Bay"...is that in Orange County (SoCal)?


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## wuzak (Oct 10, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> Recently had an interesting discussion with a person who was trying to tell me the oceans have risen "over three feet in the past fifty years!!"...and I told them to compare the sea level in a 1942 photo of the USS Arizona's #2 casemate against a present day photo...the water lever is the same (right at the turret's quide) and that's a span of 75+ years.
> 
> Their reply was rather typical: "oh, those photos have been doctored by deniers!!"
> 
> *palmface*


 Apparently the average sea level rise over the 20th century is in the 0.2mm - 0.4mm per year range. Over 100 odd years that equates to around 40mm. Somewhat shy of 3ft.

In nearly 77 years since the USS Arizona was sunk the sea would have risen between 15.4mm and 30.8mm.


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## swampyankee (Oct 10, 2018)

wuzak said:


> Never mind that, how do these metallic compounds being emitted by planes flying at 10km affect the atmosphere at 50-100km altitude?



There is some evidence that contrails do effect local weather, and there is some evidence that combustion products have detectable, likely insignificant, effects on the ozone layer. The thing is that these effects are from normal combustion byproducts, not additives. We know that human-produced chemicals can cause environmental damage -- witness the ozone hole that caused the banning of most CFCs -- but the evidence for weather changes and atmospheric damage from jet engines is fairly weak.

As I said earlier, chemicals with neurological effects were emitted by piston engines for decades; the main offender in this regard was lead.

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## michael rauls (Oct 10, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Just to throw this in to bolster the point. I've been fishing on and off in Newport back bay since I was about 13 that would be 40 years ago. At high tide the water still comes up to the same places on the same rocks that were there 40 years ago.





GrauGeist said:


> You say "Newport Back Bay"...is that in Orange County (SoCal)?


Yes Dave it is. Caught a few pretty nice fish out of there over the years.

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## MIflyer (Oct 10, 2018)

Several years back I was looking for info on runway layout and found some nut's website that said that the buildings hit on 9/11/01 could not have been struck by airplanes because they did not have IFR Aiming Marks painted on the side, like runways do.

Then there's the people who say the Apollo Moon missions were a hoax because you can't hear the engines running when the astronauts talked on the radio. 

P.T. Barnum said there's a sucker born every minute. I think the production rate has gone up considerably since then.

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## swampyankee (Oct 10, 2018)

MIflyer said:


> Several years back I was looking for info on runway layout and found some nut's website that said that the buildings hit on 9/11/01 could not have been struck by airplanes because they did not have IFR Aiming Marks painted on the side, like runways do.
> 
> Then there's the people who say the Apollo Moon missions were a hoax because you can't hear the engines running when the astronauts talked on the radio.
> 
> P.T. Barnum said there's a sucker born every minute. I think the production rate has gone up considerably since then.



Well, the world population is several times greater than it was then. Plus, of course, the Web is a great vector for the stupidity virus.


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 10, 2018)

Just catching up to this....


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## Airframes (Oct 10, 2018)

So, if we believe the total b*ll*cks spouted by these people, then it must follow that the many well-known photos showing contrails over the south of England and London in the summer of 1940, don't really show contrails, but a secret weapon, deployed by the Luftwaffe, under orders from Hitler, which deployed chemicals intended to harm the population.
Exceedingly cunning, especially as the then enemy was apparently able to cause RAF fighters to spread the same 'chem trails'..........

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## vikingBerserker (Oct 10, 2018)

I watched the video starting at 9:09 and have a few comments.

The main source of his data is an Air Force book published in 1951 and Wikipedia. I will admit when somebody quotes Wikipedia to me as backup to an argument their creditability significantly drops as give me 5 minutes and I will have it support my view. The 1951 book I think over all is accurate for it's time, but it is almost 70 years later and the methods of measuring and testing have significantly improved - they need to find a modern source.

One thing I did note (or perhaps overlooked because I started at 9:09) is it did not mention the impact of nuclear weapons testing on the ION levels, this could significantly boast the amount of IONs in the atmosphere.

Most if not all of the major producers of jet engines are for profit and as such there are reasons why certain metals are used in their production. I don't argue the impact of the metals used as the video states, but I think they are taking a theory and trying to force facts to fit it. IMHO the impact on the "D" Zone is a by-product of using the materials in the engines and not the intent.

People are social animals and are not good at keeping secrets. If the video was true, then the ten of thousands of people that build and design engines who would know about it would have to keep it a secret and I just do not see that being possible. This is the same fallacy I have in believing about Chem-Trails.


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## special ed (Oct 10, 2018)

After reading thru this thread, no one has mentioned that ozone is 0 3. I used to point out to those years ago who wanted to do away with spray cans that 0 3 is unstable and is always trying to find monoxide, 0 to become 0 2, i.e. stable oxygen. Ozone is created by lightning and certain types of pine trees. It is what you smell after a thunderstorm or in a pine forest. I mentioned this to a kid in college at our job back then and after he told his professor he was told "That's right but I have to teach the curriculum".


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 10, 2018)

True, but I believe at least in the US since the 70's the propellants that destroyed ozone are no longer allowed to be used.


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## special ed (Oct 10, 2018)

True, but it was unnecessary as volcanos put out more florcholorcarbons than all of the freon ever made.


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## MIflyer (Oct 10, 2018)

Back in the 70's a University group looked into what could be done to prevent cholorflorocarbons from depleting the ozone layer.

The answer they came up with was the opposite of what the video says - to inject metals into the upper atmosphere which would react with the cholorflorocarbons and prevent the destruction of the ozone.

Then they did some more calculations and found that meteors entering the atmosphere put something like 10,000 times as much metals in the atmosphere than would be required. 

As for other reference sources, VB has a real point there. Look at this and you'll see there are later reference sources that are still pre-jet airliner:
https://archive.org/search.php?query=The Upper Atmosphere 

By the way a neighbor of mine had his air conditioning system worked on and discovered that the cost of Freon 22 has increased incredibly. Production of Freon 22 was reduced and then stopped entirely in 2015; the price has increased accordingly. Service companies now charge $75 and up per pound of Freon 22.


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## gumbyk (Oct 10, 2018)

MIflyer said:


> Back in the 70's a University group looked into what could be done to prevent cholorflorocarbons from depleting the ozone layer.
> 
> The answer they came up with was the opposite of what the video says - to inject metals into the upper atmosphere which would react with the cholorflorocarbons and prevent the destruction of the ozone.



Not sure how that would work - ozone is an extremely active oxidiser, brominated halogenes interrupt the oxidation process so wouldn't react with the metals.


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## PWR4360-59B (Oct 10, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> This chemtrail nonsense started in the 90's with Art Bell's Coast-to-Coast AM radio program. It was all connected to the snake oil he was selling and since then, has become one of several popular conspiracies. The "chemtrails" allegedly stared in the early 60's.
> Also, depending on the "official" website you go to, it's blamed on (pick one) the Trilateral Commission, Zionists, Globalists, Masons, Illuminatti, Rothschilds, World Bank or whatever.
> There is always some anonymous government official who's turned over secret documents, but remains nameless for the safety of his family - this also appears to be the same nameless person who's turned over secret documents on geo-engineering, HAARP, the Moon landing hoax and several other ey conspiracies, too. The guy really gets around.
> 
> ...


I also remember the good old days of piston engine contrails, and jets as well. Those photos don't show what became of those after say an hour or more. The photos show fresh contrails. Yes they would in those days disappear. The trails that happen here when they do it, come from a specific direction and become persistent cirroform type clouds at the wrong height. And during this last summer when they didn't want moisture here there were no trails nor planes from those directions. A passenger plane nor any other plane can't come from the direction at the altitude they are at while dumping, from normal flight, as they would be out of fuel. So it has to be a deliberate maneuver doing what they are doing. And the total lack of that air traffic for at least 3 months proves the point. When the high pressure area is established, they don't fly the path. Its called observation that most people don't think of or care about. I find it funny how for some reason there is always a poo poo crowd, that doesn't even want to try to study something that may alter their reality a bit. Luckily we have had great inventors that were not like that. Yes they were called all sorts of names and crapped on, just makes me think of how some act on here.

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## special ed (Oct 10, 2018)

He will have to convert to R-134a. Conversion and refill will most likely be cheaper than fill with R-22. An interesting thing about Byrd's 1939 trip to Antarctica included research into why the ozone layer dipped to the south pole. There was apparently a void of ozone at the pole. The south pole also has the longest known continuously erupting volcano. When Mount Pinitubo erupted in the Phillapines the aircraft doing air sampling brought results that just this one eruption of a medium size put out more choloflorocarbons than all the freon made since 1920 when it was invented.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 10, 2018)

PWR4360-59B said:


> I also remember the good old days of piston engine contrails, and jets as well. Those photos don't show what became of those after say an hour or more. The photos show fresh contrails. Yes they would in those days disappear. The trails that happen here when they do it, come from a specific direction and become persistent cirroform type clouds at the wrong height. And during this last summer when they didn't want moisture here there were no trails nor planes from those directions. A passenger plane nor any other plane can't come from the direction at the altitude they are at while dumping, from normal flight, as they would be out of fuel. So it has to be a deliberate maneuver doing what they are doing. And the total lack of that air traffic for at least 3 months proves the point. When the high pressure area is established, they don't fly the path. Its called observation that most people don't think of or care about. I find it funny how for some reason there is always a poo poo crowd, that doesn't even want to try to study something that may alter their reality a bit. Luckily we have had great inventors that were not like that. Yes they were called all sorts of names and crapped on, just makes me think of how some act on here.

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## special ed (Oct 10, 2018)

Ozone is actually present from the surface of the earth thru the stratosphere but the concentration is called the ozone 'layer'.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 10, 2018)

Can you explain this further. I don’t know of a place in the US that is unattainable due to the reasons you state...

_”A passenger plane nor any other plane can't come from the direction at the altitude they are at while dumping, from normal flight, as they would be out of fuel.”_

As for the rest of your post, wow...


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## gumbyk (Oct 10, 2018)

PWR4360-59B said:


> I find it funny how for some reason there is always a poo poo crowd, that doesn't even want to try to study something that may alter their reality a bit.


That's because there are a number of us on this forum who have first-hand knowledge that this is bullsh!t.

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## Shortround6 (Oct 10, 2018)

He just hit my ignore list.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 10, 2018)

gumbyk said:


> That's because there are a number of us on this forum who have first-hand knowledge that this is bullshit.



Yeah but remember, it probably does not require skills to do what you do.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 10, 2018)

My favorite picture provided as evidence by “Chemtrail Conspiracy Nuts” is this one.

Then when you explain to them that these are ballast tanks filled with water during flight testing of new aircraft to simulate different weight and passenger characteristics, they call you a liar. _”Liar! I saw it on the internet!”_

Then you show them your credentials and experience, and they accuse you of being part of the deep conspiracy, or simply not knowing what you are doing...

It never gets old...

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## Marcel (Oct 10, 2018)

PWR4360-59B said:


> I also remember the good old days of piston engine contrails, and jets as well. Those photos don't show what became of those after say an hour or more. The photos show fresh contrails. Yes they would in those days disappear. The trails that happen here when they do it, come from a specific direction and become persistent cirroform type clouds at the wrong height. And during this last summer when they didn't want moisture here there were no trails nor planes from those directions. A passenger plane nor any other plane can't come from the direction at the altitude they are at while dumping, from normal flight, as they would be out of fuel. So it has to be a deliberate maneuver doing what they are doing. And the total lack of that air traffic for at least 3 months proves the point. When the high pressure area is established, they don't fly the path. Its called observation that most people don't think of or care about. I find it funny how for some reason there is always a poo poo crowd, that doesn't even want to try to study something that may alter their reality a bit. Luckily we have had great inventors that were not like that. Yes they were called all sorts of names and crapped on, just makes me think of how some act on here.


Yeah, posting things like that is asking for some lashing on an aviation forum. That is because many of the people here have worked or still work in Aviation and you're indirectly accusing them of spraying chemicals or at least covering it up. With these kind of theories, you must remember that it is not so simple to keep a secret, especially not one like this idea that would be executed in the open. Also you should be able to detect the chemicals on the ground if the have to have any impact. I never heard that this as the case. Most researchers don't work for the goverment, you know... Another thing to remember is that with that vast area to cover and at that altitude, you need an awful lot of chemicals to have any significant effect at all on the ground. That means there must be a lot of money involved. This you cannot hide for 60+ years. Therefore it's highly unlikely that your theory is true.

People believe what they want to believe and with the Internet booming, conspiracy theories are thriving.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 10, 2018)

Marcel said:


> Yeah, posting things like that is asking for some lashing on an aviation forum. That is because many of the people here have worked or still work in Aviation and you're indirectly accusing them of spraying chemicals or at least covering it up. With these kind of theories, you must remember that it is not so simple to keep a secret, especially not one like this idea that would be executed in the open. Also you should be able to detect the chemicals on the ground if the have to have any impact. I never heard that this as the case. Most researchers don't work for the goverment, you know... Another thing to remember is that with that vast area to cover and at that altitude, you need an awful lot of chemicals to have any significant effect at all on the ground. That means there must be a lot of money involved. This you cannot hide for 60+ years. Therefore it's highly unlikely that your theory is true.
> 
> People believe what they want to believe and with the Internet booming, conspiracy theories are thriving.



Exactly Marcel, there are only hundreds of thousands of people around tge world covering up this conspiracy.

At my Masonic Lodge during monthly meetings, we come up with more creative ways to keep it secret.

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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 10, 2018)



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## Airframes (Oct 10, 2018)

Oh, look !
Those 'chemtrails' have made the fairies at the bottom of my garden really glow and shimmer !
Er... hang on ..... I haven't got a garden.
Maybe Budweiser isn't p*ss after all !!


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 10, 2018)

Airframes said:


> Maybe Budweiser isn't p*ss after all !!



Whoa whoa, now that IS crazy talk!

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 10, 2018)

Airframes said:


> Oh, look !
> Those 'chemtrails' have made the fairies at the bottom of my garden really glow and shimmer !
> Er... hang on ..... I haven't got a garden.
> Maybe Budweiser isn't p*ss after all !!



If you are drinking Budweiser or any of their so called “beers” you sir have other issues...

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## Airframes (Oct 10, 2018)

No Way would I even handle a bottle of that stuff, never mind drink it !!

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## GrauGeist (Oct 10, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Yes Dave it is. Caught a few pretty nice fish out of there over the years.


Native Orange Countian here...born in Fullerton, lived for the most part in Brea, Anaheim and such but the entire county was my stomping grounds.

Even have some old pix of surplus military aircraft rotting out back of Orange County airport (SNA) when it was a still out in the sticks.

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## michael rauls (Oct 10, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> Native Orange Countian here...born in Fullerton, lived for the most part in Brea, Anaheim and such but the entire county was my stomping grounds.
> 
> Even have some old pix of surplus military aircraft rotting out back of Orange County airport (SNA) when it was a still out in the sticks.


Thats cool. When I was a kid I used to bug my grandparents to haul me down to orange county airport as often as I could get them to.There used to be a small air museum there with a p40 and a kingfisher amoungst others.
Never got tired of that place.
If you were raised in Fullerton you probably know one of my main fishing holes, Laguna lake, right off Hermosa dr.
Always do good there.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 11, 2018)

PWR4360-59B said:


> I also remember the good old days of piston engine contrails, and jets as well. Those photos don't show what became of those after say an hour or more. The photos show fresh contrails. Yes they would in those days disappear. The trails that happen here when they do it, come from a specific direction and become persistent cirroform type clouds at the wrong height. And during this last summer when they didn't want moisture here there were no trails nor planes from those directions. A passenger plane nor any other plane can't come from the direction at the altitude they are at while dumping, from normal flight, as they would be out of fuel. So it has to be a deliberate maneuver doing what they are doing. And the total lack of that air traffic for at least 3 months proves the point. When the high pressure area is established, they don't fly the path. Its called observation that most people don't think of or care about. I find it funny how for some reason there is always a poo poo crowd, that doesn't even want to try to study something that may alter their reality a bit. Luckily we have had great inventors that were not like that. Yes they were called all sorts of names and crapped on, just makes me think of how some act on here.


Those photos were taken at different times during the countless missions over Germany and they reflect several points.
First of which, was during the winter months, the contrails were more prevalent and had a longer duration that summer months - this was a HUGE red flag to the Germans, who were able to estimate height and direction.
Secondly, the Me262s would use the extensive contrails as a guide to the bomber formations and when conditions were right, would also use the contrails to help conceal their approach...why? Because they were making very obvious contrails, too.

The atmosphere is a dynamic environment, with many layers and boundaries. It is not static and it changes by season, by solar activity and by geographical location - the same effect can be seen in the oceans, which have different currents at different levels and varying temperatures by depth.
During the summer here in Northern California, the atmosphere tends to be warmer and dryer, hence no contrails or very short-lived contrails. However, when the monsoonal moisture is pushed up north from a tropical storm to the south, the contrails become very prevalent and remain for quite a while. 
When winter came to the northstate, often times so does the arctic air pushed in by the jet stream. That Arctic air, with it's sub-zero temps and exceptionally dry air will absorb super-heated, water-laden exhaust like a sponge.

Also claiming that passenger aircraft can't come from an area where they're dumping is absolute and complete nonsense - especially the "three month" part. The air currents are such, that anything "dumped", "sprayed" or whatever the black-ops secret Illuminati word of the day for chemtrails is, would drift out of the area within a matter of hours. Want proof? Check out what happens when a Volcano erupts - that ash plume ends up broadcasting great distances, sometimes circumventing the planet. How about Forest Fires? The smoke meanders until it gets into the upper atmosphere and then creates a plume seen by the ISS.

Which brings us back to the part about the Atmosphere being dynamic.

And I'll part with a fun, but VERY educational video, that shows what happens when superhot water meets sub-zero arctic air.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 11, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> Those photos were taken at different times during the countless missions over Germany and they reflect several points.
> First of which, was during the winter months, the contrails were more prevalent and had a longer duration that summer months - this was a HUGE red flag to the Germans, who were able to estimate height and direction.
> Secondly, the Me262s would use the extensive contrails as a guide to the bomber formations and when conditions were right, would also use the contrails to help conceal their approach...why? Because they were making very obvious contrails, too.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I asked him to please explain that part further...


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## Peter Gunn (Oct 11, 2018)

Airframes said:


> No Way would I even handle a bottle of that stuff, never mind drink it !!



I dunno, you might be surprised (or not) what I've started drinking at 3:00 am after the ouzo runs out...

On a side note, the chem trail conspiracy crap is just too stupid for me to comment on, ugh.


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## Peter Gunn (Oct 11, 2018)

If you're going to discuss chemtrails intelligently, may I suggest refreshment first?

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## michael rauls (Oct 11, 2018)

Peter Gunn said:


> I dunno, you might be surprised (or not) what I've started drinking at 3:00 am after the ouzo runs out...
> 
> On a side note, the chem trail conspiracy crap is just too stupid for me to comment on, ugh.


I think the chemtrail conspiracy thing shows( among other things) the poor state of our education system. When my kids were in school(25 years ago) they were taught just slightly more than zip about ww2 in general and nothing about ww2 aviation.
Had it not been a topic around our household they would know basically nothing about it today. My grandkids (the oldest is in 5th grade) haven't gotten word one about ww2 yet. Anyone who has ever seen a picture of b17s flying at 25,000 feet and leaving contrails would know this is normal but lack of such education allows this belief to fester among the more conspiracy minded.
Seems like it also shows an appalling lack of interest in society in general that so many people arent the slightest bit curious about the world around them and have apparently never picked up a history or science book in there life.

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## jetcal1 (Oct 11, 2018)

And I'll part with a fun said:


> 051ddIvQ2hI[/MEDIA]



Looks like a winter first start of the day of a J79!
(Psst, don't tell the chemtrail folks.)


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## jetcal1 (Oct 11, 2018)

Airframes said:


> No Way would I even handle a bottle of that stuff, never mind drink it !!


Not that I disagree! Yet, I find the strength of your comment amusing when you come from the land of Barley wine. (The beverage that tastes the way varnish smells!)

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 11, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> *I think the chemtrail conspiracy thing shows( among other things) the poor state of our education system.* When my kids were in school(25 years ago) they were taught just slightly more than zip about ww2 in general and nothing about ww2 aviation.
> Had it not been a topic around our household they would know basically nothing about it today. My grandkids (the oldest is in 5th grade) haven't gotten word one about ww2 yet. Anyone who has ever seen a picture of b17s flying at 25,000 feet and leaving contrails would know this is normal but lack of such education allows this belief to fester among the more conspiracy minded.
> Seems like it also shows an appalling lack of interest in society in general that so many people arent the slightest bit curious about the world around them and have apparently never picked up a history or science book in there life.



Agreed...

Sure lends some validity to the recent rankings that ranked the US at 23rd in the world for quality of education. Pretty sad...


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## michael rauls (Oct 11, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Agreed...
> 
> Sure lends some validity to the recent rankings that ranked the US at 23rd in the world for quality of education. Pretty sad...


I'm surprised we made 23rd . Seriously. Pretty sad indeed.


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## special ed (Oct 11, 2018)

A few years ago visiting my first daughter and son-in-law, both in their 50s with degrees (DVM), they took me to a sports bar on game night. One question was " What German officer was in charge of the defenses at Normandy" When I told them Rommel they hesitated to ring it in.. My daughter knows my interests, convinced my son-in-law to do it. Our table was the only one to get that right. My son-in-law still thinks I don't know much.

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## vikingBerserker (Oct 11, 2018)

Regardless of what the discussion is, I always appreciate when somebody actually lists information to support their argument.

In this case I learned more about microwaves and how the atmosphere impacts them. I would not have learned that if I had just written the topic off.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 17, 2018)

By golly, he’s right! Chemtrails are real!

I walked into the hangar this morning and the mechanics slipped up and left a Mark 26 Chemtrail Dispersal Unit out on the table.

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## GrauGeist (Oct 17, 2018)

vikingBerserker said:


> Regardless of what the discussion is, I always appreciate when somebody actually lists information to support their argument.
> 
> In this case I learned more about microwaves and how the atmosphere impacts them. I would not have learned that if I had just written the topic off.


If you want to read something fascinating, here's an article that describes the relationship between the earth's climate and the 11-year solar cycle.

California's severe drought cycle is roughly 11 years, following the El Niño pattern and peaks during the solar cycle. Global climate has been relatively calm in recent times but has been known to have extremes in the past that would send today's conspiracy folks into a coma.

Solar Cycle Variations and Effect on Earth's Climate - Windows to the Universe

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## michael rauls (Oct 17, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> If you want to read something fascinating, here's an article that describes the relationship between the earth's climate and the 11-year solar cycle.
> 
> California's severe drought cycle is roughly 11 years, following the El Niño pattern and peaks during the solar cycle. Global climate has been relatively calm in recent times but has been known to have extremes in the past that would send today's conspiracy folks into a coma.
> 
> Solar Cycle Variations and Effect on Earth's Climate - Windows to the Universe


If most people knew about the climate history of the earth this whole man made climate change narrative wouldn't have ever even gotten out of the starting block.
I was listening to a dendrocynologyst( hope I spelled that right), which is a person that studies past climate by taking core samples out of living trees. Apparently one can tell quite a bit about the past climate by the with of the ring( a wider width indicates a wetter year and therefore longer growing season for example) and the composition of the wood within the ring as well.
Anyway, one of the things this guy was saying is that 100 even 150 year droughts were it barley rains are nothing unusual in California. He also added that the last 100 years or so has had the most stable climate in the span of history that is knowable by dendrocynology. Which would be about 4000 years( the age of the oldest living trees, the bristle cone pines).

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## Glider (Oct 17, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Is there really a chemtrail believer on this forum?
> 
> Let me guess, flat earth too?


Damn, my secret is out.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 17, 2018)

Absolutely!
They have been doing tree-ring (dendrochronology) studies on the Sequioas, Redwoods, Bristlecone pines and old trees that had been well preserved under lakes and in swamps in order to get a long history of California's climate cycle and found several things of note.
One of which, you mentioned, that the last 100 years or so has been fairly stable.
They also found that in the late 1700's, there was a 35 year drought, which confirms the Spaniards' accounts of a savage drought that nearly caused the Spaniards to abandon Alta-California, which happened to be about the time the British were snooping around - and that could have drastically altered North American history, too.
One other point of interest, is California had a series of exceptional droughts that lasted hundreds of years, one such drought coinciding with the collapse of the Pueblo Culture.

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## special ed (Oct 17, 2018)

As an aside, the National Geographics magazine many years back had an article in which the mention of the oldest living things on earth are in Turkey at high elevations. They are some kind of a tree, which looks like a bush and are 6000 years old. Because they are a national treasure, a core sample was taken only once. Rings had to be counted by microscope.


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## michael rauls (Oct 17, 2018)

special ed said:


> As an aside, the National Geographics magazine many years back had an article in which the mention of the oldest living things on earth are in Turkey at high elevations. They are some kind of a tree, which looks like a bush and are 6000 years old. Because they are a national treasure, a core sample was taken only once. Rings had to be counted by microscope.


Verry interesting. I have always read/ bean told that the Bristlecone pine was the oldest living organism on earth with quite a few in the 4000 year range. Would be fascinated to know the name of that tree in Turkey.
There are I think 2 of the Bristlecones living that they know of that are in the 5000 year range plus one more that some dummy accidentally cut down that was over 6000 if I remember right. That WAS the oldest living thing on earth. Oops


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## GrauGeist (Oct 17, 2018)

The Yew in Turkey is estimated to be 4,100+ years old, the Bristlecones in California are the absolute oldest single-root, continuous living trees on earth.

There were three, one was cut down about 50 years ago, the oldest is un-named and is 5,068 years old, next oldest is Methesulah at 4,850 years old and the third was on the Nevada side of the Sierras, named Prometheus which was 4,844 years old at the time it was cut down.

There are "clonal colony" trees which are older, but the age is collective as the tree that shares the root system with the others don't live to be very old, like the Aspen colony on Utah which is estimated to be close to 1,000,000 years old, but like the Norwegian Spruce colony in Sweden, which is 9,550 years old, the "stems" (or trees from the root system) only live about 5 to 6 hundred years.


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## michael rauls (Oct 17, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> The Yew in Turkey is estimated to be 4,100+ years old, the Bristlecones in California are the absolute oldest single-root, continuous living trees on earth.
> 
> There were three, one was cut down about 50 years ago, the oldest is un-named and is 5,068 years old, next oldest is Methesulah at 4,850 years old and the third was on the Nevada side of the Sierras, named Prometheus which was 4,844 years old at the time it was cut down.
> 
> There are "clonal colony" trees which are older, but the age is collective as the tree that shares the root system with the others don't live to be very old, like the Aspen colony on Utah which is estimated to be close to 1,000,000 years old, but like the Norwegian Spruce colony in Sweden, which is 9,550 years old, the "stems" (or trees from the root system) only live about 5 to 6 hundred years.


I've been up to see the Methesula tree in the White Mountains several times. One of my favorite places. The tree that was cut down about 50 years ago was the one I was referencing as being, if I remember right, the oldest of them. I believe close to or perhaps slightly over 6000 years.
Could be off on that but I know I've read it was the oldest and if one of the others were in the 5s then seems like it would be at least close to 6.


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## gumbyk (Oct 17, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> There are "clonal colony" trees which are older, but the age is collective as the tree that shares the root system with the others don't live to be very old, like the Aspen colony on Utah which is estimated to be close to 1,000,000 years old, but like the Norwegian Spruce colony in Sweden, which is 9,550 years old, the "stems" (or trees from the root system) only live about 5 to 6 hundred years.


 This is a conspiracy... THE EARTH IS ONLY 6,000 YEARS OLD!!!! 


(In case you missed it, that was sarcasm.....)

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 17, 2018)

gumbyk said:


> This is a conspiracy... THE EARTH IS ONLY 6,000 YEARS OLD!!!!
> 
> 
> (In case you missed it, that was sarcasm.....)



Careful there is a sizeable portion of the US population that actually believes this. They typically live in a belt that runs from the deep south to the midwest.

The pyramids were likely dinosaur stables to them...


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## michael rauls (Oct 17, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> The Yew in Turkey is estimated to be 4,100+ years old, the Bristlecones in California are the absolute oldest single-root, continuous living trees on earth.
> 
> There were three, one was cut down about 50 years ago, the oldest is un-named and is 5,068 years old, next oldest is Methesulah at 4,850 years old and the third was on the Nevada side of the Sierras, named Prometheus which was 4,844 years old at the time it was cut down.
> 
> There are "clonal colony" trees which are older, but the age is collective as the tree that shares the root system with the others don't live to be very old, like the Aspen colony on Utah which is estimated to be close to 1,000,000 years old, but like the Norwegian Spruce colony in Sweden, which is 9,550 years old, the "stems" (or trees from the root system) only live about 5 to 6 hundred years.


Ya you were right. I looked it up and the Prometheus, the one that was cut down was ONLY a 4844 as you said so the un- named 5068 one would be the oldest


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## nuuumannn (Oct 17, 2018)

> I walked into the hangar this morning and the mechanics slipped up and left a Mark 26 Chemtrail Dispersal Unit out on the table.



Ha! One of our pilots put a chemtrail label next to a switch in the cockpit of one of our aircraft and it was promptly removed! Not by us though, we saw the funny side of it. Management have no sense of humour.



> Careful there is a sizeable portion of the US population that actually believes this. They typically live in a belt that runs from the deep south to the midwest.



I'm sorry, but that's just ludicrous.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 17, 2018)

What are the odds that I just received a "geo-engineering" flyer in the mail today?

I'm dead serious...when I get on the computer in a little bit, I'll scan it and post it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 17, 2018)

nuuumannn said:


> Ha! One of our pilots put a chemtrail label next to a switch in the cockpit of one of our aircraft and it was promptly removed! Not by us though, we saw the funny side of it. Management have no sense of humour.



I did the same thing on one of our aircraft a few years ago. It stayed up there for a few days...



nuuumann said:


> I'm sorry, but that's just ludicrous.



I'm serious, I am not joking about that. Look up the New Earth Creationists. Hell look up Ben Carson. He is one of the people who believes that. He even thinks the pyramids were created to store grain. Just because someone is smart, does not mean they are "smart"...


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## michael rauls (Oct 17, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> What are the odds that I just received a "geo-engineering" flyer in the mail today?
> 
> I'm dead serious...when I get on the computer in a little bit, I'll scan it and post it.


Would love to see that. Should be entertaining.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 18, 2018)

Finally got situated at the computer, so here we go.

The claims this guy and his site are making are so absurd to a person who knows better BUT to the uninformed, it *may* sound possible.

A little education goes a long ways and people like this guy used to prey on the uninformed with their snake oil remedies and rain-making potions in the 18th and 19th century. So there's nothing really new under the sun, just different approaches.

And I'm sure Chris and the other guys who work around aircraft will immediately notice the image of the ballast tanks in the fuselage AND the image that points out the "spray nozzles" (actually pylon drains) on the A319!

There's more, but this makes a clear point that in today's world, when people have unprecedented access all the knowledge in the world, they choose instead, to live in ignorance...and that's a terrible shame 

Front Page (click for full image)




Back page (click for full image)

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 18, 2018)

I love the ballast tank ones. It never gets old.

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## michael rauls (Oct 18, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> Finally got situated at the computer, so here we go.
> 
> The claims this guy and his site are making are so absurd to a person who knows better BUT to the uninformed, it *may* sound possible.
> 
> ...


Good heavens. My first reaction was to want to laugh at this but then it hit me how sad it really is.
Wonder why some people put this stuff out. I mean I can't imagine what they could be getting out of it unless they are making money from subscriptions to a "newsletter" and taking advantage of the gullible that way.

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## GrauGeist (Oct 18, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I love the ballast tank ones. It never gets old.


Yep, that's an old gem, but my fav is those "spray nozzles" on the pylon - which happen to be below the fuel dump orifice (which they apparently missed)


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## nuuumannn (Oct 18, 2018)

> I'm serious, I am not joking about that. Look up the New Earth Creationists. Hell look up Ben Carson. He is one of the people who believes that. He even thinks the pyramids were created to store grain. Just because someone is smart, does not mean they are "smart".



Yeah, Adler, I meant that it's ludicrous that people believe that. I've heard of this creationist movement and I saw a clip of a museum in New Orleans or somewhere called Creation World or some such thing. More disturbing is that one major US museum has been petitioned to provide creationist docents so they can get their view of history put forward, rather than that which the museum is offering! Crazy.

Ben Carson; a sloth in human form...


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