# F-80 vs ME262



## P38 Pilot (Jul 1, 2005)

If the F80 Shooting Star had saw service nearing the end of WWII, do you guys think it would be as equal, less, or greater than the ME262. What type of outcome do you think would it have?


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 2, 2005)

i'd go for the -262, if nothing else, the pilots would have combat experience in a jet...........


----------



## P38 Pilot (Jul 2, 2005)

Hmm... Your right but what about technoligical? Which Jet do you think was better?


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jul 2, 2005)

Quite why your posting a NEW TOPIC in the fomrum titled OLD THREADS I dont know...Ill move it..


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 3, 2005)

Id still go with the 262. The P-80 probably would have proven to have had better engines but as for design I would go with the Me-262.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jul 4, 2005)

I'm with the P-80. More reliable, better gun platform (more stable), if met in combat would have the advantage of superior numbers and I believe more maneuverable than the 262. Although the 262 would have the speed advantage, I think a good pilot in a P-80 would dance around a 262.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 4, 2005)

A good pilot in a P-51 could fly around a 262. The 262 was just as good as a gun platform. Other than engines I am still with the 262. She was the best jet engined aircraft of WW2 dispite her terrible engines.


----------



## P38 Pilot (Jul 5, 2005)

Yeah it just seemed like that because i was reading about how the F80 was the first American jet and that it took its first test flight in December 1944. I wonder why she never took to the skies in Europe?


----------



## evangilder (Jul 5, 2005)

That is not correct. The first American Jet fighter was the Bell XP-59 Airacomet. It first flew on October 1, 1942. 66 were built. Information on the XP-59 can be found below:

http://www.aviation-history.com/bell/xp59.html


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 6, 2005)

And the P-80 did take to the skies over Europe. She just never saw combat. They kept her in the rear over Italy and England. She was grounded due to problems with the early Jets.

Also your info on when XP-80 first flew is also incorrect.

The XP-80 first flew on Jan. 8, 1944. Infact Lockheed Chief Pilot Milo Burcham was killed on October 20, 1944 while flying the second production prototype. World War II ace Richard Bong was also killed test flying a P-80 on Aug. 6, 1945 the same day the Atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.

45 P-80's were delivered by wars end and 4 of them made it to Europe. 2 were sent to England and 2 were send to Italy. The aircraft was grounded however when test pilot Major Fred Borsodi, demonstrating the P-80 in England, was killed in a crash caused by a fire in the jet engine and therefore did not see any action in WW2.

So as you can see the P-80 like all early jets had great teething problems.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 6, 2005)

As for the P-59, even is correct the P-59 was the first US jet to fly and enter service. She was far from a good plane though and I thought that only about 30 had been built (I could be wrong though) She was pretty much canceled because of her poor performance.


----------



## evangilder (Jul 6, 2005)

Yes, the P-59 had less than stellar performance, but it did serve as a good platform to introduce pilots to the new technology. You may be right about there being only thirty. I have seen 30 and 66 tossed about and haven't looked thoroughly into it.


----------



## P38 Pilot (Jul 6, 2005)

Thats how Richard Bong died? Man. He and Thomas Mcquire both didnt make it back to a heroes welcome!
Oh and thanks for giving me that website Flyboyj!


----------



## evangilder (Jul 6, 2005)

Bong did make it back and was test piloting the P-80 in Southern California when he was killed. I spoke with a guy who was the last guy to see him alive as his plane went down. Dick Bong stayed with the plane to steer it away from houses and apartments. A hero to the end.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 6, 2005)

How did Bong not make it back to a heros welcome? He was given the Medal of Honor. He died in the P-80 crash in the United States.



> General MacArthur presented the medal to Bong on the Tacloban airfield on December 12, 1944. He tossed away his written remarks and said, "Major Richard Ira Bong, who has ruled the air from New Guinea to the Philippines, I now induct you into the society of the bravest of the brave, the wearers of the Congressional Medal of Honor of the United States." Then he pinned the medal on Bong, they shook hands and saluted.
> http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_bong.html



Richard Bong's Medal of Honor Citation:



> RICHARD I. BONG - Medal of Honor Citation:
> (Air Mission)
> 
> Rank and organization: Major, U.S. Army Air Corps. Place and date: Over Borneo and Leyte, 10 October to 15 November 1944. Entered service at: Poplar, Wis. Birth: Poplar, Wis. G.O. No.: 90, 8 December 1944.
> ...



Does not seem like too bad of a homecoming to me:




> After Bong scored his 40th victory, General Kenney sent him home, this time for good. He was America's "Ace of Aces," with 40 aerial victories, 200 combat missions, and over 500 combat hours behind him. By New Year's Eve, 1945, America's number 1 ace was back in the "Z.I.," headed for Washington D.C. to meet the dignitaries, including General 'Hap' Arnold. At the Pentagaon, he met Bob Johnson, also there on a PR tour. Dick explained that he had been dragged around the country on War Bond tours and hated it. "I've got this coming out my ears, Johnson. I'm sure glad to see you. You can help me bear up under this nonsense. It's worse than having a Zero on your tail."
> 
> After his PR trip, he returned to Wisconsin, and married Marge on February 10, 1945. After their California honeymoon, he went to work at Wright Field as a test pilot, helping to develop the Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star. He studied jet propulsion theory and boned up on the engineering details of the new plane for two months, before getting a chance to fly one. After being checked out in the P-80, he flew it eleven times that summer.
> http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_bong.html



Hell they even named the airport at Superior Washington after him. Richard Bong is also memorialized at the Richard I. Bong Heritage Center in Superior, Wisconsin, which features many exhibits about Dick Bong as well as a refurbished P-38 on display.


----------



## evangilder (Jul 6, 2005)

There was an Air Force base in Wisconsin named after him as well. It was closed many years ago though.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 6, 2005)

That I did not know.


----------



## evangilder (Jul 6, 2005)

I remember the base being talked about when I was in high school, and it had been closed by then. Here is some text about it from the global secuity website:
_Bong AFB, WI 
Richard Bong AFB near Burlington in Kenosha County Wisconsin was a new northern tier Air Force base, initiated in 1955 to be an ADC fighter-interceptor base. The Air Force chose the location to defend Chicago and Milwaukee from Soviet bombers. Before the base could be built, the technology of mass destruction changed and these interceptor aircraft would be no match for the ICBM's the Russians would lob at American cities. 

The base was named after Richard Ira Bong, who was born in Superior Wisconsin in 1920. Prior to WWII he joined the Army Air Corp, and flying P-38's in New Guinea shot down 40 enemy aircraft becoming the leading American Ace of all times. He flew P-38 Lightnings in the Southwest Pacific and received the Medal of Honor in recognition of his courage and accomplishments. In the air over Hollandia on April 12, 1944, he scored his 26th and 27th victories to break the previous record of 26 set by Capt. Eddie Rickenbacker in WWI. Bong scored 28 air-to-air victories. When he returned to the Pacific for his second tour, he was assigned as a gunnery instructor. He voluntarily flew numerous combat missions and in "self defense" scored 12 more victories to bring his total to 40, making him the highest scoring ace in American history. He lost his life in the crash of a P-80 jet aircraft in August 1945 at Burbank, California. 

Although the base was never finished, there is an extensive below ground drainage system and at least one old airstrip. The Federal government turned the land back to the state of Wisconsin, which redeveloped the facility into the Bong Recreational Area, a 4,515-acre tract that offers picnicking, camping, fishing, boating and swimming. Bong is an unimproved area, with many 'non-traditional' activities, like dog sled trials, horse back riding, a few tracks for dirt bikes, cross-country ski, snowmobile, motorcycle and hunt a nice RC airplane field, and rockets. 

Wisconsin Rustic Road 43 in Racine and Kenosha Counties consists of County Highway B from the intersection of WIS 142 in Kenosha County to its intersection with WIS 11 in Racine County. Passing through open agricultural land with few residences, this route provides direct access to the Bong Recreational Area. The Rustic Roads System in Wisconsin was created by the 1973 State Legislature in an effort to help citizens and local units of government preserve what remains of Wisconsin's scenic, lightly traveled country roads for the leisurely enjoyment of bikers, hikers and motorists. Unique brown and yellow signs mark the routes of all officially-designated Rustic Roads. These routes provide bikers, hikers, and motorists with an opportunity to leisurely travel through some of Wisconsin's scenic countryside. _
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/facility/bong.htm


----------



## P38 Pilot (Jul 6, 2005)

Sorry about the confusian guys!!! But did Thomas Mcquire recive anything for his bravery with the P38 Lightning? And when did Tom Mcquire die?


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 6, 2005)

McGuire was looked at by his fellow pilots as an egotistical show off. He was pretty much in a competition against Bong. He wanted to get more kills than him. In the end I think this is what killed him. He was trying to achieve it so much that he screwed up. It is not that he did not come home to a heros welcome but that he was killed in action. He did recieve the Medal of Honor posthumously.



> By this time Dick Bong had gone home, for a triumphant tour of the U.S., with 40 victories to his his credit. McGuire had 38, was still in combat, and there were still plenty of Jap planes around. Everyone, including McGuire, expected him to break Bong's record. It seemed like just a matter of time, not too much time at that. Afterwards, McGuire would have gone home to a hero's welcome as well. But time ran out for Tommy McGuire, just as he almost had his goal within his grasp.
> 
> The Final Mission
> On Jan. 7, 1945, Tommy McGuire led a flight of four planes on an early morning fighter sweep over the Japanese airdrome on Negros Island. Flying McGuire's wing was Capt. Edwin Weaver, whom McGuire had given demerits to when they were cadets in San Antonio. Major Jack Rittmayer and Lt. Douglas Thropp formed the second element. All were veteran combat pilots. The P-38's each carried two 160 gallon external fuel tanks. They spotted a single Jap fighter coming right at them. They departed Marsten Strip around 0615 and leveled off at 10,000 feet, but in the vicinity of Negros the weather forced their descent to 6,000 feet. McGuire led Daddy Flight to an airdrome over Fabrica Strip and made a futile attempt at provoking an enemy response by circling the area for approximately ten minutes. They were now flying at 1,700 feet.
> ...





> It can be said that McGuire was never shot down by enemy fire, only a split second violation of his rules for combat resulted in his death. Some critics have maintained that McGuire's order to keep the tanks was greedy and foolish; supposedly he wanted to score a 'quick kill' on the lone Japanese plane.
> http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_mcguire.html


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jul 6, 2005)

In another thread I mentioned a movie should be made about those two - alot better than some of the crap being made now!


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 7, 2005)

That I will agree with. The movies they come out with now are a bunch of crap. They all seem to follow the Pearl Harbor way of doing things which was crap!


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jul 7, 2005)

"Pearl Harbor sucked, A little more than I miss you" 


Yeah crap movie. Tomorrow im treating myself to a DVD, not sure what to buy though. At the moment its between Top Gun and The Aviator.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 10, 2005)

I have the collectors edition of Top Gun. I just bought the Aviator.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jul 10, 2005)

Yeah I opted for the Collecters edition of Top Gun too. (As you can probably tell by the sig)


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 11, 2005)

It is an all time great.

"TALK TO ME GOOSE!"


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 11, 2005)

i've never seen it..........


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 11, 2005)

You are kidding right?!!!


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jul 12, 2005)

Id never seen it until a few days ago! 

"You were in a 4G inverted dive with a MiG-28?"


----------



## evangilder (Jul 12, 2005)

Funny how that Mig-28 looked remarkably like an F-5!


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jul 12, 2005)

evangilder said:


> Funny how that Mig-28 looked remarkably like an F-5!



Yep! And how it could carry an Exocet!


----------



## evangilder (Jul 12, 2005)

What made it worse for me is I first saw that in the base theater. There was a lot of chuckling going on with the aviation inaccuracies.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jul 12, 2005)

It was entertaining


----------



## evangilder (Jul 12, 2005)

But I will admit the flying scenes in that movie are first rate.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jul 12, 2005)

I liked they way they simulated the pitching and rolling.


----------



## evangilder (Jul 12, 2005)

Yeah, that was great. There is one scene where the F-14 lights the burners up. You hear the whoosh and see the swirling vortices behind it. That scene always makes me say "Oh YEAH!"


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jul 12, 2005)

evangilder said:


> Funny how that Mig-28 looked remarkably like an F-5!



Indeed 


Yeah its a good film though.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 12, 2005)

Yes it is by far not the most realistic naval aviation movie ever gut it is still a great movie and it definatly was recruited a lot of people into the navy. 

I just remember being in love with Kelly McGuilles (spelling?)!


----------



## P38 Pilot (Jul 16, 2005)

Im going to watch Hamburger Hill_ or Band of Brothers: Disc two tonight.

Oh and Pearl Harbor Sucked on Ice!_


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jul 16, 2005)

Have a Band Of Brothers marathon...stay in bed and watch em all in a row.  I did


----------



## plan_D (Jul 16, 2005)

> Bell_UH30.jpg



It looks a lot like a Boeing Vertol CH-47 to me.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 17, 2005)

Yeah I did not even look at the name of siggy but now that you pointed it out. Hey P-38 Pilot that is a Chinook made by Boing-Vertal not by Bell and is not a UH-30.


----------



## P38 Pilot (Jul 20, 2005)

I corrected the problem, ok?


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 20, 2005)

No it was not a problem. Dont think we are picking on you or anything. Just did not know if you knew that or not.


----------



## jrk (Aug 10, 2005)

talking of the p-59 airacomet there was one exchanged to britain and the americans were given a gloster meteor in return.

looking at the body shape of the airacomet it looks like a tigershark.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 10, 2005)

Do you know of any comparitive studies made between the too when they were exchanged?


----------



## Glider (Aug 10, 2005)

I don't have any figures but I did find that the RAF test pilots found the aircraft to be badly underpowered, with an unacceptably-long takeoff run. I should add that was in comparison with the Meteor I which was no rocket ship.

The performance of the P59 was poor and as early as mid 1943 the USA decided not to proceed with it as a combat plane.

As might be expected for such a revolutionary system of aircraft propulsion, there were serious problems right from the start. The jet engines were too heavy in relation to the amount of power they could develop, and their exhaust was so hot that the turbine blades regularly overheated and often broke off with catastrophic results. The maximum speed was 404 mph at 25,000 feet, somewhat below expectations. The engine installation was found to result in an inordinate amount of aerodynamic interference, and the aircraft was subject to severe directional snaking

The above may sound harsh but it is in my mind an unfair comparison. The P59 was the first USA jet and it should be considered more an experimental prototype. Its nearest comparison in the UK would probably have been the Gloster E28/39. Its just that we didn't try to pretend that the E28 was to be a front line aircraft, it was a test bed pure and simple.


----------



## evangilder (Aug 11, 2005)

That's pretty much what the P-59 was, an experimental test bed that served the purpose for a proof of concept. It definitely had less than stellar performance.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 11, 2005)

Yes that it deffinatly did.


----------

