# P-51 rc plane restoration for museum and tribute to Bill Getz



## davegee (Jul 15, 2011)

Hi All: I am new to this forum and this is my first post. I look forward to chatting with others with similar interests as me on this forum in the future.

Briefly, I have been involved with large model building for many years, a lot of it scratchbuilt, or partially scratchbuilt models. Several of my works are of spacecraft and rockets and have been donated and are on display at museums around the USA, including the NASM in Washington, DC.

My current project is restoring an old 1/4 scale rc P-51D plane to look like the plane flown by my friiend Col. Bill Getz (USAF, ret) iwith the 2nd Air Division Scouting Forces. The plane was in dire shape, and I have been working on it steadily since March. However, it is now nearing completion as a replica of Saucy Shirley, Bill's mount with the 2nd Scouting Forces.

The ultimate plan is to install this plane in the Spirit of Flight Center at the Erie, Colorado airport at 11am on Saturday, September 24. Bill and his wife Vicki are flying out from California to attend this ceremony honoring him, his service to our country, and his plane. Incidentally, Bill shot down an Me-262 jet during his tour with this outfit. 

I would be happy to discuss this subject at any level with anyone interested in it. I can attach pics of the rebuilding of this large model (98" wingspan) or any other subject matter of interest to readers. 

Cheers,

Davegee


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 15, 2011)

Welcome aboard Dave and please by all means post pics of your work!


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## Airframes (Jul 15, 2011)

Welcome, and looking forward to the pics. It sounds a large beastie !


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## davegee (Jul 15, 2011)

Thanks, guys. Anything 98" long will find its way to bumping into walls, floors, furniture, etc., anytime you try to move it! The plane has some serious scale errors, probably done to make it more stable for flying, but I think the final work will at least be presentable to be a nice tribute to my friend Bill and his squadron mates in the Scouts. 

I'm out of the country where I normally live right now (USA) but once I get home, I'll post some pics for you all to see who are interested. I look forward to talking with many of you down the road!

Cheers,

Davegee


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## Airframes (Jul 15, 2011)

Thanks Dave, look forward to seeing the pics.


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 16, 2011)

Cannot wait to see them.


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## davegee (Jul 20, 2011)

vikingBerserker said:


> Cannot wait to see them.


 
Hi All: I am going to try and send a few photos of the rebuild and restoration at a time. I received the hulk of this former flying rc plane back in March. It was in pretty sad shape..

There were several planes and parts in a trailer. Someone had donated several rc planes to the museum. I took the best P-51 fuselage, and two wings. The wings were both 98" wingspan, but to two different kits. I chose to keep the wing that the gear could be fully retracted inside the wells, but this was not the one that came with the fuselage. It took a lot of work to be able to fit the two dissimilar kits together.


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## davegee (Jul 21, 2011)

Hi All: I was having some problems uploading more pics, so if you go to my photobucket link, you can see them. As I progress on the model, I'll add more pics. Here's the link: Pictures by davegee_photos - Photobucket

When you get to the page, look for an album entitled P-51D Saucy Shirley. There are other projects and models on this page that might or might not be of interest to the view.

davegee


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## Geedee (Jul 24, 2011)

Another '51 being restored (hopefully to flight status ?) fantastic. 

Any intention on replacing the prop with a 'four blader' ?

And sorry Dave, welcome to the family !


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jul 24, 2011)

Dave, it usually works better if you use the Manage Attachments button in the Go Advance post reply section. Photo bucket and Flicker cause some issues with the site if I'm not mistaken. So if you'll just up load the photos directly from your computer after resizing them to the correct size (600x400 I think is the correct size) you should be able to upload without any problems. Oh, and welcome to the forum sir. Excellent work to by the way.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Jul 26, 2011)

800 x 600 is the image size maximum.
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/announcements/image-sizing-guidelines-24388.html

Cool pictures Dave. 


Wheels


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## davegee (Jul 29, 2011)

Thanks, guys. I will try to resize them and put them directly onto the site. I have ordered the vinyl stencils for applying the squadron codes and stars and bars, so some good pics should be uploaded fairly soon. 

Thanks all for your interest in this project.

davegee


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## davegee (Jul 29, 2011)

Hi Gary: the flying days of this airplane are over, unfortunately. The structure is not really suited for flying anymore, and it will be a permanent display hanging from the ceiling of the Spirit of Flight Center in Erie, Colorado, near Denver. But I am hoping it will be a fitting tribute to both Bill Getz and all his squadronmates of the 2nd Division Scouting Forces, which operated out of Steeple Morden, England.

davegee


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## davegee (Jul 30, 2011)

Hi All: I have tried to downsize the size of some pics I just added to this thread. I hope this works. I am going to paint on the stars and bars, noseart, and tail and squadron insignia on Sunday. Will upload pics when this is successful.

davegee


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 31, 2011)

Nice!


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## drgondog (Aug 5, 2011)

Dave - another thought. The rudder was made of fabric, doped and painted. The paint would wash out to the point that it is awfully difficult to decide faded silver, near silver gray but flat when compared with rest of wing.

Second factor - all P-51s had a zinc chromate like (Not sure of actual primer) primer applied to top surface of the wing then finished with a silver paint which 'looked like', but was not, aluminum.


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## davegee (Aug 9, 2011)

Hi All: Today was the "rollout" of the mostly completed Saucy Shirley model. I still have to add the 110 gal. drop tanks that are presently being manufactured by a friend for me this month. Once those are completed and installed, the airplane will be ready for installation in the Spirit of Flight Center on Saturday, September 24 in Erie, Colorado at l11 am. Anyone interested in attending, please come and welcome Bill Getz and the model his plane he flew in WWII!


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## davegee (Aug 9, 2011)

Thanks for those detail suggestions. I did try to replicate the rudder, although it might not look like it in the photos. I painted the rudder a flat aluminum color to simulate the dope silver fabric on the tail. In person, I think it looks fairly close to what I was trying to convey. 

As far as the wing goes, I am aware that the wing was painted aluminum color, but I did the best I could on this to make it look something like that. I tried to make the flaps and ailerons look a little brighter, to convey that they were fabricated out of aluminum sheeting. Hopefully it looks fairly realistic when it is viewed in the museum. 

d


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## drgondog (Aug 10, 2011)

Dave - you did a great job, I know Bill is very pleased!

If you feel like one more 'touch' that many people miss, add the stencil "4371" below the exhaust stack on left and ride side of the nose per the photo of Bill


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## davegee (Aug 12, 2011)

That is a great suggestion, and I am happy to report that it is already done on this airplane. I tried to add as many little details that make this airplane complete. 
Good eye on noticing that detail!

Dave


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## drgondog (Aug 13, 2011)

Dave - here is an example of a similar vintage 51D-10 (one my father's many) around mid to late September, 1944. Bill's 371 would have come to Steeple Morden just about the same time ~ August 44.


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## davegee (Aug 13, 2011)

Hi Drgondog: That is a great picture! From the looks of it, it is one of the fighters from the 355th FG, and the bar below the B to me would tell me that there was another plane in the squadron already there with a B, so this differentiated the two. The WR would denote the 354th Fighter Squadron. Teh partial removal of the D-Day invasion stripes would place the picture taken in the fall of 1944, would be my guess. 
You'll note a couple of interesting things about Bill's plane that I included on the model. One is that there is a bar above the WR, denoting it to be a 2nd Air Division Scouting airplane attached to the 354th Fighter Squadron, versus a regular fighter plane from that squadron. Also, the cowl is painted an unusual bright green, which I verified through records and Bill himself, that planes in just this one squadron were painted up with the bright green cowls. 

The drop tanks on the plane in your photo appear to me to be steel, versus the silver painted paper tanks that were manufactured in England. Bill routinely flew with the paper 110 gal. drop tanks that were required to make the deep penetrations into Germany with the bomber stream. Bill told me that if they did not encounter enemy fighters, (and they were not supposed to take them on unless attacked, themselves) they flew back to base with the tanks on as there was a shortage of them at the time. 

Thanks for the picture, it is great!

davegee


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## drgondog (Aug 13, 2011)

davegee said:


> Hi Drgondog: That is a great picture! From the looks of it, it is one of the fighters from the 355th FG, and the bar below the B to me would tell me that there was another plane in the squadron already there with a B, so this differentiated the two. The WR would denote the 354th Fighter Squadron. Teh partial removal of the D-Day invasion stripes would place the picture taken in the fall of 1944, would be my guess.
> 
> *The pic was taken about the time my father led the last Shuttle Mission on September 18, 1944 - 22, 1944. Interesting fact. My father's previous B was badly damaged by flak on the 15th August, he got this B as a replacement and his 'old' B returned as B. The tanks are impregnated paper - I don't believe the 355th ever received steel or metal tanks. Bill G is right about the 'order' but SOP is don't even remotely think about risking the airplane to return with the tank.
> 
> ...



While Bill is correct about 'not attacking unless attacked' the 2SF were involved in a huge battle on November 26, 1944 in which a seven plane scout force section was the last thing between a group of B-24s and annihilation, and John Brooks took another section to attack two 50+ gaggles of 109s near Leipzig - Bill Whalen became only Scout Force ace in that fight and Brooks got the DSC

When that picture above was taken dad was both 354 CO as well as 355th Deputy Group CO, wearing both hats until Gordy Graham was ready to take the squadron after Lenfest got stuck in mud trying to rescue Henry Brown..


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## Airframes (Aug 13, 2011)

Great looking model Dave. I was going to ask about the bright green cowling, but you explained first !


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## davegee (Aug 13, 2011)

Hi Drgondog: that is great stuff! What was (is?) your dad's name? Perhaps Bill knows/remembers him. Bill points out very clearly that he was a bomber pilot flying a fighter, NOT a fighter pilot. He says there was a huge difference in mental attitudes between bomber and fighter pilots, and I would agree, from many I have talked with over the years. Bill had already completed 31 missions as an A/C in the B-24 with the 491st BG, but didn't want to come home while his older brother, a doctor in Patton's third army, was still in theater fighting. So, Bill volunteered for the Scouts. (He said ONE tour in bombers was frightening enough!!) 
The Scouts were accompanied by regular fighter pilots, a task that they (the fighter pilots) did not enjoy doing, sort of like babysitting the Scouts. However, on one occasion, Bill did see two Me-262s flying nearby, shadowing the bomber stream. One peeled away, while the other made a run in on the bombers. Bill was in a position to attack from an advantage and chased him down, vertically. He scored several hits, and possibly a kill, or at least damaged. When Bill returned from his mission, the CO had a congratulations telegram for him on the "kill." (I have seen this telegram myself.) The kill has not been officially recorded, so we'll never know for sure if indeed that plane crashed. At the least, Bill chased it off and damaged it, preventing it damaging or destroying many bombers. 

You're right about dropping tanks, of course. If you get into a fracas, one of the first things you did would be to "pickle" the tanks. But on many of Bill's missions he was not directly under fire and he often returned home with the tanks attached. 
Bill returned home, and celebrated his 21st birthday! He went on to have a distinguished career with the air force, retiring in 1960 working in the missile command under Gen. Bernard Schriever and retiring as a Lt. Colonel. 

I'd be very much interested in hearing more about your dad, and his experience in WWII. I don't know much about the 355th; my favorite groups flew jugs, like the 56th FG, of which I am an associate member of their association. This is the first P-51 rc plane I have built. It is a very cool plane, and will always be an iconic example of one of the most classic aircraft ever designed and built. 

davegee


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## davegee (Aug 13, 2011)

Hi Airframes: Yes, I did a "double take" when Bill first told me about the color of the cowls of his squadron. To be honest, I had never heard of the Scouting Forces before I met Bill several years ago. I remember confirming with Bill and through a few history books describing his aircraft as having bright green cowls painted on their planes before I was comfortable painting it this color. Bill confirms that this is the nearly exact color his planes were painted back then. 

davegee


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## davegee (Aug 13, 2011)

Regarding Henry Brown: Unknown to Bill, Brown had been shot down and made POW before Bill arrived with the Scouts. Brown had used the same squadron code letters WR-Z that Bill's plane used, and Bill often wondered if German pilots might have purposely avoided him, thinking that super-ace Brown was flying that airplane! Bill later exchanged some letters with Brown after the war, and Brown sent him a card saying " from one WR-Z driver, to another."

davegee


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## davegee (Aug 13, 2011)

Hi Drgondog: What can you tell me about the significance of the name on your dad's plane "Bulldogs"? Just curious because bulldogs are my wife's and my favorite dogs (we have three).

davegee


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## drgondog (Aug 14, 2011)

Dave - The names of the three squadrons were Bulldogs, Dragons and Angels. I wrote my first book "Angels, Bulldogs and Dragons - History of the 355th FG in WWII" in 1984. I just signed a contract with Schiffer to publish "Our Might Always - Histrory of the 355th FG, TFW and FW - Volume I" It will cover WWII with an Intro to Vietnam. I have included a nice piece written by Bill Getz in the Appendix ("Tales of a Teen Age Warrior"), and have about 10 pages on the Experimental and 2nd SF at Steeple Morden.

I am President of the 355th FG Association which is an All Generation Association of the 355th from WWWII through today. The Bulldogs (354) and Dragons (357) live today but the 358th renamed to Lobos' after Vietnam. We will be having our Reunion at Davis Monthan in late October this year and the Wing is going all out for the older vets with firepower demos, A-10 simulators, A-10 flybys and we will have some surprise birds from afar to take some guys from WWII, Vietnam and current wing for a ride.

We had one English Bulldog growing up but were mostly a Golden Retriever and big Poodle family growing up but I went with Irish Wolfhounds.

Yes, I know the 355th pretty well. Bill knew my father Bert Marshall also.

Regards Dave - and thank you for what you are doing for Bill G - he REALLY appreciates it!

Bill Marshall


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## drgondog (Aug 14, 2011)

davegee said:


> Regarding Henry Brown: Unknown to Bill, Brown had been shot down and made POW before Bill arrived with the Scouts. Brown had used the same squadron code letters WR-Z that Bill's plane used, and Bill often wondered if German pilots might have purposely avoided him, thinking that super-ace Brown was flying that airplane! Bill later exchanged some letters with Brown after the war, and Brown sent him a card saying " from one WR-Z driver, to another."
> 
> davegee



Interesting linkages.. Dad's first P-51D WRB Jane II was damaged by flak, needed a new wing and canopy, on Aug 15th. He flew WR-F Lorie V 44-13950 on August 18th - Chuck Lenfest's ship and then 354FS Ops Officer. Dad was shot down ne Paris strafing a M/Y and was subsequently rescued by Royce Priest for the first Piggy Back rescue. Doolittle issues strong worded order to 'don't do this again'.

On October 3, 1944 Lenfest was flying dad's Mustang (WRB Jane III 44-14409 when Henry Brown was shot down by flak near Nordlingen after getting his 28th+ score. Lenfest landed trying for another pick up and got stuck in the mud. Future NAA Chief Test Pilot Al White lands close by try to give up His ship to Brown and Lenfest but they don't see him - and he takes off alone - leaving WRZ and WRB in the field - then strafed them both.

Lenfest's WR-F was damaged strafing on October 28 and returned to be Gordon Graham's "Down fo Double".

Brown's WRZ 44-13305 was inherited from Kinnard, when Kinnard was transferred to 4th FG to eventually take over for Blakeslee.


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## davegee (Aug 14, 2011)

Hi Bill: that is really great! I would like to purchase your books, first, History of 355th FG in WWII, and especially your upcoming book with Schiffer. Do you have any general idea when that might be published?

For me, and probably you, too, this generation of heroes is very special indeed. My own dad flew B-24s with the 446th BG out of Bungay, and then transferred to the 482nd BG flying B-24s and B-17s out of Alconbury. He flew B-29s in Korea, and then transitioned to B-47s, where unfortunately he was killed in an accident in one in 1956. My father-in-law flew 36 combat missions with the 351st BG out of Polebrook, C-124s and C-46s in Korea, and then got out of the air force. He is still around today, and will be present at Bill's ceremony on September 24. 

Over the past several years as I discovered the r/c warbird world, I have done similar projects, mostly P-47s that flew in competitions and then were donated to museums around the country. It has been one of the best things in life for me to connect with these old warriors, many of whom have passed away in the last few years. It's the least I can do for these great guys...
davegee


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## davegee (Aug 14, 2011)

Wow! the stuff of legends! I don't think we'll ever know all the amazing and heroic stories from that era. Thanks for sharing that. 
davegee


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## drgondog (Aug 14, 2011)

Dave - some great pics of 56th birds.. sorry about your dad.. 

Growing up I was used to friends losing fathers and had three near misses of my own. Dad was dead heading on a B-29 to Guam to pick up and lead a squadron of P-80's on June 23 1950. The pilot got lost in an incoming Typhoon and they ran out of fuel 200 miles past Guam. AF had SAR all over the place but a Destroyer was the one that found them on the 29th.
Had the Base CO and Chaplin routine at the front door with my mother firmly telling them not to worry "he will be OK" - and he was.

The next time, just after taxiing onto the active in an F-86D at Eglin, his engine blew up when he lit the AB, and those ships did not have zero-zero - and I was in the tower watching.. manual crank on canopy, road runner over the side and down the ramp - then it blew up.

A year later he was climbing out with a stab-aug faiure on a F-100A which went into a roll - and he had to time the puch out because he was too close to the ground - open/one swing and into the Firepower demo range and that good north florida sandy soil. Then he heads west after his pancreas blew up following a stroke in 1979.. go figure.


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## davegee (Aug 14, 2011)

Military flying has always been a dangerous business, with pilots continually hanging it out to the very edge and back. I salute all of them, past and present, who have defended our freedoms. It's sad we have lost so many, during war and in peace. But they will always be remembered. 
davegee


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## davegee (Aug 14, 2011)

Hi Bill: I noticed on your name info on the left border of blogs you send that your location is Scurry, TX. Are you living there now? If so, that is a happy coincidence as my son-in-law's parents both moved there last year. The dad (retired USA Ranger) is a principal of a high school, and the mom is still active duty Army down there. Just curious.

Dave


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## drgondog (Aug 14, 2011)

Yes it is - we live just off south 148 about 1.6 miles south of 34. The high schoolis about 1.6 miles from us and my sister is looking for part time teaching jobs - 

We came back to TX last year from a ranch in OR and glad to be back - but miss the winter/spring rain and cool summer nights.

Bill


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## davegee (Aug 14, 2011)

Hi Bill: could you come up on my private email [email protected]? I have an email address of my son-in-law's dad that you or your sister might get some leads for possible part time teaching jobs in the Scurry area. I can give you the emails on a discrete email, rather than this public forum.

davegee


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## drgondog (Aug 15, 2011)

Dave - I sent an email this morning titled 'contact' and it didn't come back - i'll try again tomorrow am.


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## davegee (Sep 2, 2011)

Hi All: I just finished the drop tanks and connecting tubing for the Saucy Shirley model. I'll attach some pics. I can thank my friend Chad Veich who actually made the tanks for me. I then added the brass framework, connecting tubing, and painting and weathering details. Since these tanks were so important to the success of our fighters making all the way into Germany and back, I thought it important to include them in the display. If you look closely, you'll see the glass tube sections that were designed to break cleanly away when the tank was jettisoned in flight. 

davegee


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## drgondog (Sep 3, 2011)

Very well done. Chad is definitely a pro. I have watched his work on rcscalebuilder.com for 10 years


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## drgondog (Sep 3, 2011)




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## davegee (Sep 3, 2011)

Here are a couple of pics of what I used as references for doing the connections and details for the 110 gal. Bowater tanks. Not sure where I got them from, now...
I do remember reading somewhere that the 110 gal tanks had the connections to the airplane on the aft part of the tank, so I made the connectors like those I saw on those photos. Very hard to find much info other than that on the technical aspects of these drop tanks. 

davegee


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## vikingBerserker (Sep 3, 2011)

Way cool!


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## Crimea_River (Sep 3, 2011)

Amazing work!


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## Airframes (Sep 4, 2011)

Beautifully done.


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## drgondog (Sep 4, 2011)

Dave - I have yet to see a WWII photo showing a connector imbedded in the underside of the leading edge of the wing. Logically it doesn't make sense to have any line running from leading edge to tank for fuel purposes, nor air bleed/pressurization. What purpose would they serve?


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## davegee (Sep 4, 2011)

Here are some pics I took today at a local park, free from distracting backgrounds like trash cans, houses, etc. This was the first time the whole "smash" was put together.

davegee


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## davegee (Sep 4, 2011)

Hi Bill: I'm pretty sure this is accurate, at least for these 110 gal. tanks. I'll try to attach a couple of scans that show these attach points under the leading edge of the wings, between the outboard and middle guns. The smaller hole is in front of the larger hole for the respective sized pipes is in a teardrop shaped depression. I was looking through a couple of books, one being Walk Around P-51D by squadron/signal publications, and it show attach points where I have indicated. On the drawing, I have indicated with a yellow circle where you will see two tiny dots that I think represent the attach points for the lines. 
I'm certainly no expert on this subject, but from the research I did, and consulting a pilot/owner of a real P-51, this seems to be the case where the lines were attached. It may have varied some when using other tanks, like the teardrop 75 gal or others used in the war, but it looks to me that in every photo or drawing I can find that shows them to some degree, there is an attach point in that area. 

Without some handbook showing exactly how this plumbing works, I can only guess as to the true function of these two pipes in the one I used as my source for making the drop tank connections.
davegee


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## Crimea_River (Sep 4, 2011)

Great looking build Dave.


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## drgondog (Sep 5, 2011)

Dave - I did find the hose configuration directly in front of the pylon for the all the B/C/D's - this was a first for me as I had not paid attention when dad owned one and we never used the external tank.

The recessed panel for the twin fuel line fitting is clearly about four inches forward of the pylon and both connectors are about 1-1" apart in-line w/bomb rack. This is clear for the D-25 and -30.

Interestingly enough there was a design change somewhere between the D-10 and the D-25. The P-51B/C and D-5 and D-10 has a single connector which ran from leading edge of the pylon down to the tank and appeared to connect to the 110 aft for the pylon. I have two distinct pictures showing the installation - in other words it is not a short/Straight drop from wing connector to leading fuel connector on the front of the 110 gallon tank.


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## drgondog (Sep 5, 2011)

Another pic showing clear twin lines and forward position of the connector pair. I'll try to dig up one showing a straight 'drop down' of lines to forward portion of 110 gallon tank


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## davegee (Sep 5, 2011)

Hi Bill: great pics you posted there. I don't doubt there were many engineering changes done when you consider the vast amount of P-51s that were manufactured in such a short time. The pic of Man O' War shows the twin lines similar to the models and photos I used to base my fabrication on. It's amazing there are so many minor differences on just about every aspect of these, and other planes of that era. 
Thanks for the great pics. They are really a gem. 
dave


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## drgondog (Sep 6, 2011)

Dave - it is funny - we (dad) owned a -25 and I never noticed that fitting (or sure as hell didn't remember). I also have a pic of the wing tank being installed from lower view and no obvious fitting location on the bladder - but I cant tell if it is a P-51A or B/C/D based on the photo.

Also interesting is that the early B/C/D/K through the P-51D-10 had what always appeared to be the 'hose' like attachment in the front of the pylon reaching back to the glass elbow/aft tank fitting, to the clear 'double line' attachment that alternatively went straight down to front tank fitting, or trailed along the pylon to the aft tank fitting..


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## Airframes (Sep 6, 2011)

There were difference in connection points to the tanks themselves, depending on whether 75 gal, or 108 gal, paper or metal, and which production source. One pipe is fuel feed, the other the pressure line.


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## Erich (Sep 6, 2011)

Dave you are interested in P-47 groups do you know any of the guys in the 78th fg ? good thread guys

as a side note to what was said on page # 2 I think about US codes and that LW pilots may shy away from a possible US ace, well will tell you the LW pilots did not have time to get close enough to view a full-on US code, either they were blowing US bombers/fighters away with their heavy cannon or taking it in the shorts themselves from .50's.


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## davegee (Sep 6, 2011)

Airframes said:


> There were difference in connection points to the tanks themselves, depending on whether 75 gal, or 108 gal, paper or metal, and which production source. One pipe is fuel feed, the other the pressure line.



Here is some interesting information on the operation of the drop tanks mechanically from someone out in California who owns, operates, and flies a P-51D I got in a recent email to him requesting more techical information on the drop tanks
:
Sorry for the late response concerning your question about the drop tanks. Bill forwarded your question to me and I can pass on what i know about the tanks. The lines you are describing on the tanks are for pressurizing the tanks and for fuel feed. They are aluminum lines and are connected with rubber hoses that allow the tanks to fall free from the wing when jettison. The tanks do not have pumps in them they are pressurized from the out flow side of the engine driven vacuum pump that provides vac for the flight instruments. There is is a matrix of lines and check valves between the engine and oil tank that split off and go through the wing wheel wells to the drop tanks. The tanks are plumbed through the fuel selector valve on the center console in front of the control stick. The fuselage tank was usually used first down to 25 gallons followed by the drop tanks. The P-51 could not do well in a dog fight with the fuselage tank full or with drop tanks. The tanks are jettisoned by pulling the respective handle in the cockpit that has a cable leading to the drop hard point hooks. I hope this answers your questions. If you have any others please feel free to e mail me and I will to my best to provide you with the information.

davegee


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## davegee (Sep 6, 2011)

Hi Erich: I don't really know any folks in the 78th FG other than Dick Hewitt, who flew both P-47s and P-51s with that august unit. Dick came to a couple of our r/c shows and one of our members made a great 1/5 scale flyable model of his P-47 in the green camo and black and white checkerboard cowl. Unfortunately, Dick has taken ill, I am told, but I hope he pulls through. I believe he is close to 90 years old now. Great guy. If I come across any folks more fluent in 78th FG info, I'll be happy to put you in touch with them. My favorite 8th AAF units were the 56th, 78th and 4th FGs. They were all great, but these were my favorites. I'll attach some pics of the r/c model of Dick's MX-E. Dick was present at this show about three years ago. 

As far as getting close enough to see and understand the call signs for specific airplanes, I suppose that was in part a statement in jest by Bill. He didn't get to know Henry Brown until just a few years before Henry died, as Brown had gotten shot down and captured about the time Bill went to the operational 2nd Div. Scouting forces attached to the 355th FG at Steeple Morden. You're probably right, in most cases, you would never have the time or interest in ciphering squadron code letters when someone is firing several pounds of lead every second trying to kill you!!! (lol) davegee


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## Erich (Sep 6, 2011)

Dave my interest in the 78th fg was the pilots that were engaged in combat with the Me 262, Dick H. being one of them, Dick and I go back a few years. was able to help ID Dick one of his last victories flying the 262 near Prague, when he shot down 2 of them but only given credit for one.


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## davegee (Sep 6, 2011)

Hi Erich: that is very interesting! Would you happen to be able to trace a possible kill/damage by Bill Getz on one of his Scouting missions? Bill got several hits on the plane, thought he might have shot it down, but we might never know for sure. He was given credit for the kill by his CO, but it was never officially recorded as a kill in the records. Since it never was official, Bill requested that I keep any kill markings off of the model of Saucy Shirley. At the least, Bill chased off and damaged a jet that might otherwise have created havoc amongst the bomber stream.

dave


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## Erich (Sep 6, 2011)

seriously Dave I have tried to check whom may have shot down whom....................this is crass sounding but good luck. with the increased speed rate flat out after attack even on US gun cams we cannot of course be sure if the jet was a firm kill or even just partially damaged to land at base the LW ground crews literally throwing patches on the jet for the next days ops. what can be confirmed is the lack of any details on any of the 262 LW jet units in book form even with the classic book by author Manfred Boehme and the man has a ton of resources he only gives just an inkling of the casualty rate in JG 7, also the wonderful multi-volumes on the 262 by Classic pubs, again we are guessing to some degree as to which jet and which pilot killed in action, wounded, bailed out or unhurt.


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## davegee (Sep 7, 2011)

Hi Erich: yes, I'm sure that is almost impossible, especially 66 years or more on, now, to try and definitively ascertain who shot who in battles that sometimes lasted just seconds. I flew with a colleague at work a long time ago, he had shot down an Me-262 in his P-51 during the war. I was anxious to talk with him about that encounter, but I remember his reply "That was a long time ago." His tone told me that he did not want to discuss it further.

dave


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## Erich (Sep 7, 2011)

may I ask the pilots name and group Dave ? piston engine kills against LW jets is a sticky thread on this site, far from complete


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## davegee (Sep 7, 2011)

Hi Erich: Wow, that was about 25 years ago. The pilot's name was Bob Braunschweig. I'm sorry I don't know any more than that. It has probably been close to 25 years since I worked with him, and at the time, I was much more keen on bomber history than fighters, as both my dad and my father-in-law were combat bomber pilots flying out of England during the war.


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## Erich (Sep 7, 2011)

I'll take a peek at my data files to see if I can find the guy. funny I had two relatives serving on the "other' side of the sphere ( Luftwaffe that is)


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## davegee (Sep 8, 2011)

I look forward to hearing if you come up with anything!

Cheers,

Dave


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## davegee (Sep 24, 2011)

Hi All: completing this blog, we had the investiture of the P-51D Saucy Shirley today. They arranged for a color guard, play the Star Spangled Banner on a trumpet, and then brief remarks by 
Bill Getz, the guest of honor, Gordon Page, founder and president of Spirit of Flight Center, and myself. As I was tied up speaking, I wasn't able to take good pictures of the event, but I'll post a couple, anyway. I appreciate everyone's interest in this blog the past few months. 

Davegee


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## Terri-Tsu (Sep 25, 2011)

Awesome sauce! I love stuff like this....that RC P-51 looks HUGE what scale is that exactly?


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## davegee (Sep 25, 2011)

Hi: This plane is about 1:4.53, that is, between 1/4 and 1/5 scale. It is very large, the wingspan is 98".

Regards,

davegee


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## Terri-Tsu (Sep 25, 2011)

what kind of engine? like what kinda fuel mixture or how does that work? That must be awesome


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## davegee (Sep 25, 2011)

Hi Terri-Tsu: This was a very old kit, I'm guessing maybe 20 years old or so. It had "ancient" components like servos unlike any that I have seen in the past 10 years I have been in the hobby. The engine was a gas engine, probably a type of modified chainsaw engine that was adapted to use on large r/c planes. These days there are much more sophisticated engines designed for rc planes that are incredibly reliable and powerful, for their size. The old engines might have used a mixture of gas and oil, as we do today, about 1 oz. per gallon, if memory serves. I don't know much about the history of this plane because it had been donated to the museum, and I did a total rebuild and makeover of it that would make it unrecognizable from what it was when I started last March.

davegee


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## drgondog (Sep 27, 2011)

Great job, I know Bill is Hugely pleased!


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## Airframes (Sep 27, 2011)

Good to see it finished and in it's new home.


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## Gnomey (Sep 27, 2011)

Very nice work! Great to see it on display.


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## davegee (Sep 27, 2011)

Thanks, All. It was a real relief to have it safely placed in the museum. Just one more bit to do, and that is hanging it from the ceiling. I already pre-drilled two holes on top of the fuse that will fit screw eyes to hang it. Don't want it to come loose once it's up there!!


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## adam402 (Sep 10, 2012)

cool ,,, nice work on rc jets
cool pic carry on


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## drgondog (Sep 14, 2012)

davegee said:


> Hi Erich: Wow, that was about 25 years ago. The pilot's name was Bob Braunschweig. I'm sorry I don't know any more than that. It has probably been close to 25 years since I worked with him, and at the time, I was much more keen on bomber history than fighters, as both my dad and my father-in-law were combat bomber pilots flying out of England during the war.



He is not listed in USAF 85 with any destroyed credits - but his claim could have been for a destroyed and downgraded to a damaged - and wouldn't show up in USAF 85


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