# Today's greatest Ace?



## FLYBOYJ (Aug 5, 2005)

"Giora Even is Israel’s leading ace with 17 victories! Born in 1938 as Giora Epstein, he grew up in the traditional frontier-farmer lifestyle of his home, Kibbutz Negba. An avid aviation enthusiast as a young boy, he poured over flying books and studied the biographies of Britain’s wartime aces. After the 1956 Suez War, the 18 year old joined the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) and applied for flight training but was rejected for medical reasons. Enraged, he went to his commander and told him that if he could not be a pilot, he wanted to be a paratrooper. He eventually made over 700 jumps and was a member of the IDF’s parachute demonstration team. After seven years and countless obstacles, he was finally on his way to becoming a fighter pilot! Beginning in 1963 Even flew frontline fighters: Dassault Ouragons, Super Mysteres, and Mirage IIIs; Israeli Aircraft Industries Neshers and Kfirs; and General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcons. He accumulated over 5,000 hours of fighter time and scored 17 victories. During the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Even shot down 12 Egyptian aircraft, eight of them in 26 hours! After the war, he was awarded the Medal of Ideal, one of Israel’s highest military honors."


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## Glider (Aug 6, 2005)

Someone you want on your side when the chips are down.


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## evangilder (Aug 6, 2005)

Yep, or in a bar fight! IDF guys are pretty bad-ass.


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## Nonskimmer (Aug 6, 2005)

Quite a pilot.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 6, 2005)

I wsas told there was supposed to be a guy with 18 kills - I'll try to look him up!


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## lesofprimus (Aug 6, 2005)

OK.... As near as I can get em, after a couple hours of research, here is a listing of all Aces AFTER Korea....

EDIT: Added Nahumi at the bottom of the list....

Shalmon, Abraham (Israeli) 18 [17+1] 
Marom, Oded (Israeli) 18 [17+1]

Aven, Giora (Epstein) (Israeli) 17 

Spector, Yiftah (Israeli) 15 [14+1] 
Snir, Asher (Israeli) 15 [14+1] 

Nahumi, Amir (Israeli) 13 
Harish, Dror (Israeli) 13 

Richter, Ya'akov (Israeli) 12 [11+1] 
Koren, Yehuda (Israeli) 12 [11+1] 
Baharav, Israel (Israeli) 12 

Melnik, Moshe (Israeli) 11 [10+1] 

Levi, Shlomo (Israeli) 10 

Zandi, Jalal (Iranian) 9
Nguyen Van Coc (Vietnam) 9 
Sharon, Menachem (Israeli) 9 
Ronen (Pecker), Ran (Israeli) 9 
Carmi, Eitan (Israeli) 9 

Hertz, Moshe (Israeli) 8 [7+1] 
Gonen, Ilan (Israeli) 8 
Even-Nir, Uri (Israeli) 8 
Enian, Menachem (Israeli) 8
Egozy, Shlomo (Israeli) 8 
Amir, Amos (Israeli) 8 
Pham Thanh Ngan (Vietnam) 8 
Nguyen Hong Nhi (Vietnam) 8 
Mai Van Cuong (Vietnam) 8

Tzuk, Michael (Israeli) 7
Shmul, Menachem (Israeli) 7 
Peer, Ytzhak (Israeli) 7
Nave (Michael), Avner (Israeli) 7 [6+1]
Keidar, Yirmiyahu (Israeli) 7 
Cohen, Ariel (Israeli) 7 [6+1] 
Bar, Amos (Israeli) 7
Nguyen Van Bay (Vietnam) 7 
Dang Ngoc Ngu (Vietnam) 7 

Hoda, A. (Iranian) 6
Rayyan, M. (Iraqi) 6 
Ščabakov, Vadim Petrovič (Soviet) 6 
el-Gar, Adeeb (Syrian) 6 
Halabi, Majad (Syrian) 6 
Zugbi, Majid (Syrian) 6
Simon, Sha'ul (Israeli) 6 [4+2] 
Peri, Ben-Ami (Israeli) 6 
Peled, Eitan (Israeli) 6 
Livni, Gideon (Israeli) 6 [5+1] 
Lanir, Avi (Israeli) 6 
Hankin, Ehud (Israeli) 6 [5+1] 
Gil, Uri (Israeli) 6 [5+1]
Geva, Yoram (Israeli) 6 
Eliyahu, Menachem (Israeli) 6
Ben-Nun, Asef (Israeli) 6 
Agmon, Yoram (Israeli) 6 
Afek (Hofman), Omri (Israeli) 6 
Vu Ngoc Dinh (Vietnam) 6 
Nguyen Tiem Sam (Vietnam) 6 
Nguyen Nhat Chieu (Vietnam) 6 
Nguyen Ngoc Do (Vietnam) 6 
Nguyen Doc Soat (Vietnam) 6 
Nguyen Dang Kinh (Vietnam) 6 
Nguyen Ba Dich (Vietnam) 6 
Luu Huy Chao (Vietnam) 6 
Le Thanh Dao (Vietnam) 6 
Le Hai (Vietnam) 6 

Cunningham, Randolph H. (USA) 5 
Ritchie, Richard S. (USA) 5
Weintraub (Navot), Shlomo (Israeli) 5 
Adib, Djur Adib (Syrian) 5
Shafir, Israel (Relik) (Israeli) 5
S, Eytan (Israeli) 5
Rozen, Reuven (Israeli) 5
Rom, Giora (Israeli) 5 
Rockach, Ami (Israeli) 5 
Peled, Yoram (Israeli) 5 
Noiner, Itamar (Israeli) 5
Dror, Gideon (Israeli) 5 
Dotan, Ezra "Babban" (Israeli) 5 
Bodinger, Herzl (Israeli) 5 
Ben-Nun, Avihu (Israeli) 5 
Arad, Amnon (Israeli) 5 [4+1]
Nahumi, Amir (Israeli) 5


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 6, 2005)

Great stuff Les - Look at all the Israelis!


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## lesofprimus (Aug 6, 2005)

Yea the Israelis and the North Vietnamese....

**Edit**
And BTW, save this list, cause its the only one on the internet... Ateast I couldnt find a solid list like this anywhere.... I looked and looked... Its all piecemeal, here and there... I just combined it all and edited and copy and pasted my ass off lol...


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## cheddar cheese (Aug 6, 2005)

Nice list! Good job les.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 6, 2005)

I found a couple of those lists - it seems that the Guy Randy Cunningham smoked (Toon or Tomb, depending whose book you're reading) is always omitted.......


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## lesofprimus (Aug 6, 2005)

From: “Lee Brimmicombe-Wood” 
Subject: Colonel Tomb 
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:30:15 -0000 
Interesting page on Duke Cunningham. Even more interesting is the myth about his fight against Colonel “Tomb” (or “Toon”, depending on your source) on 10th May 1972 over North Vietnam. America’s first Navy ace in the South East Asian conflict faces off against a fourteen kill hero with a name like “Tomb”. Sounds like something out of Hollywood, doesn’t it? 

It is. 

Two scholars, Dr. Istvan Toperczer and Marshall L. Michel III (the latter the author of the definitive book on the air war in Vietnam, Clashes) have visited Hanoi separately performing original research on the air campaigns. Michel is a former USAF Phantom pilot with a number of missions over Vietnam to his name, has flown practice combat against Cunningham, and can hardly be called a ‘Commie Lover’. Both Toperczer and Michel asked the Vietnamese People’s Air Force (VPAF) about “Tomb/Toon” and got a blank response. 

In short, the man didn’t exist. As Marshall Michel put it to me, the VPAF aren’t slow to honour their finest. And dead martyrs are as good as live ones. They had no Earthly reason to cover up the death of a top pilot. The only reason they didn’t comment on the loss of a hero is that he didn’t exist. 

So where did the Tomb myth come from? No one knows. I have personally heard all sorts of theories. Tomb is an amalgam of several officers. He really did exist but the details are still secret and are being held by the NSA. He was a Russian adviser. All sorts of conspiracies abound. 

The story is muddied by Cunningham, who was one of the earliest Top Guns; a real ‘gung ho’ flyer who believed he couldn’t be beat in anything with wings. Cunningham states his opponent was really good. But Cunningham wasn’t flying too well that day. His RIO, Willie Driscoll, gives a more level-headed account of the flight and states that on several occasions he recognized that he and Duke were in a less-than-good situation and asked Cunningham to extend and get out. Duke refused, telling Driscoll that he was on top of things. 

Expert opinion is divided. There’s a big strand of thought amongst the flying community that anyone who gets a kill must have done well to get it. But there’s another which says that Cunningham took enormous risks to get this kill and it could so easily have gone wrong. I incline to the idea that this was not the best of fights, Cunningham was not thinking straight, and that there were far more sensible things he should have done that day. 

Not that Duke would accept this view... 

There is a final note on the legendary VPAF fighter pilot Colonel Tomb mentioned in many Western publications. During my visit to Vietnam I tried to find out about him, but it seems that he is, and was, only an imaginary figure. There are several reasons for this: 

There were very few pilots in the VPAF and they knew each other very well either from their training courses abroad or from joint service in VPAF regiments. Both Nguyen Van Coc and Pham Tuan (decorated VPAF pilots) denied, in separate interviews, that they knew or had ever heard of “Colonel Tomb”. 

There is no official record of a Colonel Tomb in VPAF files, and, if he really had 13 victories, the VPAF propaganda machine would certainly have used him. 
In 1972 there were no active pilots with rank of Colonel in the VPAF. 
No North Vietnamese pilot had 13 aerial victories as reported by western experts. 
The name Tomb does not exist in the Vietnamese language, nor are there any similar sounding names.” 
According to Toperczer, the “top-scoring" would be Nguyen Van Coc, with nine claimed kills, followed by Nguyen Hong Nhi and Mai Van Cuong, with 8 each. 



Thanks, 
- Lee Brimmicombe-Wood


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 6, 2005)

Great stuff Les!!!!


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## evangilder (Aug 7, 2005)

For some reason I remember an interview I saw with Duke Cunningham and he mentioned a Colonel "Toon". I'll have to see if I can dig out that tape.

Great list, Les. Good to see someone took the time to grab all that info.


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## lesofprimus (Aug 7, 2005)

Cunningham does mention it, and has mentioned it in several publications and interviews... I believe he was told about this "Tomb" character by some Intel meatball.....

Thanks evan.....


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## evangilder (Aug 7, 2005)

Could be, he did seem a bit of an arrogant guy. I never met him in person, but he had more that the usual fighter pilot "I'm hot shit" vibe going on.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 7, 2005)

Yep - and I heard he likes his drink too!


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 7, 2005)

I found a site that has the top Isreali pilots stacked like this.....

It shows Aven Goria (Epstien) with 18 kills

06-Jun-67 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIICJ 56 Su-7 Egypt 
20-Jul-69 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIICJ 82 MiG-17 Egypt 
11-Sep-69 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIICJ 59 Su-7 Egypt 
25-Mar-70 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIICJ 77 MiG-21 Egypt 
25-Mar-70 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIICJ 77 MiG-21 Egypt 
18-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIICJ 11 Mi-8 Egypt 
24-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIIBJ 86 MiG-21 Egypt 
24-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIIBJ 86 MiG-21 Egypt 
24-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Mirage IIIBJ 86 MiG-21 Egypt 
19-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher 61 Su-7 Egypt 
19-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher 61 Su-7 Egypt 
19-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher Su-20 Egypt 
19-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher Su-20 Egypt 
20-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher 61 MiG-21 Egypt 
20-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher 61 MiG-21 Egypt 
20-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher 61 MiG-21 Egypt 
20-Oct-73 Giora Aven (Epstein) Nesher 61 MiG-21 Egypt 

06-Jun-67 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 15 MiG-19 Egypt 
08-Jun-67 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ MiG-19 Egypt 
15-Jul-67 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ MiG-17 Egypt 
15-Jul-67 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ MiG-17 Egypt 
10-Dec-68 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 81 MiG-21 Egypt 
21-May-69 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ MiG-21 Egypt 
07-Jul-69 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 59 MiG-17 Egypt 
26-Jun-69 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ MiG-21 Egypt 
06-Oct-69 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 81 MiG-21 Egypt 
25-Mar-70 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 15 MiG-21 Egypt 
27-Mar-70 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ MiG-21 Egypt 
04-Jan-70 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 59 MiG-21 Egypt 
07-Oct-73 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ Su-7 Syria 
07-Oct-73 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ Hunter Iraq 
08-Oct-73 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 58 MiG-17 Syria 
08-Oct-73 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 85 Hunter Iraq 
10-Oct-73 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ 51 Su-7 Syria 
Shared Claim 
06-Oct-73 Oded Marom Mirage IIICJ MiG-17 Syria 

08-Jun-67 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 68 MiG-19 Egypt 
08-Jun-67 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 68 MiG-19 Egypt 
24-Feb-69 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ MiG-17 Syria 
14-Jan-70 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ MiG-17 Syria 
26-Feb-70 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 83 MiG-21 Egypt Sami Marei? 
08-Feb-70 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 80 MiG-21 Egypt 
27-Mar-70 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ MiG-21 Egypt 
02-Apr-70 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 68 MiG-21 Syria 
16-May-70 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 68 MiG-21 Egypt 
30-Jul-70 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 78 MiG-21 USSR 
30-Jul-70 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 78 MiG-21 USSR Shared Claim 
3-Sep-73 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 59 MiG-21 Syria 
08-Oct-73 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 19? Hunter Iraq 
08-Oct-73 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 19? Hunter Iraq 
24-Oct-73 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 33 MiG-21 Egypt 
11-Oct-73 Abraham Shalmon Nesher 10 MiG-21 Egypt 
19-Apr-74 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 58 MiG-21 Syria 
19-Apr-74 Abraham Shalmon Mirage IIICJ 58 MiG-21 Syria 

Here are 3 aces from the Becca Valley battles in 1982...

09-Jun-82 Yoram Peled F-15A MiG-21 Syria 
09-Jun-82 Yoram Peled F-15A MiG-21 Syria Not confirmed 
10-Jun-82 Yoram Peled/Zvika F-15D MiG-21 Syria 
11-Jun-82 Yoram Peled F-15A MiG-23 Syria 
11-Jun-82 Yoram Peled F-15A MiG-23 Syria 

10-Jun-82 Amir Nahumi F-16 MiG-23 Syria 
10-Jun-82 Amir Nahumi F-16 MiG-23 Syria 
10-Jun-82 Amir Nahumi F-16 MiG-21 Syria 
11-Jun-82 Amir Nahumi F-16 MiG-21 Syria 
11-Jun-82 Amir Nahumi F-16 MiG-21 Syria 

11-Jun-82 Eytan S F-16A 107 MiG-23 Syria 
11-Jun-82 Eytan S F-16A 107 MiG-23 Syria 
11-Jun-82 Eytan S F-16A 107 Su-22 Syria 
11-Jun-82 Eytan S F-16A 107 SA.342L Syria 
09-Jun-82 Eytan S F-16 MiG-23 Syria


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## lesofprimus (Aug 7, 2005)

OK i added Nahumi to the list with 5 kills, the rest I had on there...

Giora Aven had 17 kills, as I posted, AND as u posted FBJ... Count how many kills u posted... LOL....

Look at the last 3 days of Avens combat history... Multiple kill days abound...


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 7, 2005)

You're right! Up late, a few beers, well you know -


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## plan_D (Aug 7, 2005)

Look at all the Israelis because they're fighting inferior Arabians all the time.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 7, 2005)

plan_D said:


> Look at all the Israelis because they're fighting inferior Arabians all the time.


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## Nonskimmer (Aug 7, 2005)

It's still an interesting list though. Thanks you guys.


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## plan_D (Aug 7, 2005)

And I'm not too sure but there probably should be some Royal Navy pilots in that list from the Falklands war. Since on the first day alone 23 Argentine aircraft were shot down by the 20 Sea Harriers operating over the Falklands from Hermes and Invincible (Another 17 were lost to ground fire on that same day).


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 7, 2005)

Actually top dog during the Falklands was LtCmdr "Sharkey" Ward who commanded 801 Naval Air Squadron, HMS Invincible, during the Falklands War of April to June 1982, and was senior Sea Harrier adviser to the Command on the tactics, direction and progress of the air war. He flew over sixty war missions, achieved three air-to-air kills.


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## plan_D (Aug 7, 2005)

I've heard he had up to 7 kills because there was shared kills that he gave to members of his squadron. I also know he viewed over 10 air-to-air kills. 

But still 20 vs. 200. That's odds to overcome and the Sea Harrier isn't exactly the greatest dogfighter in the world. It also isn't the easiest aircraft to fly. I'd love to see these great Israeli pilots do the same. All glory for shooting down Arabs.

The fact that hardly anyone likes Arabs has nothing to do with it.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 7, 2005)

plan_D said:


> I've heard he had up to 7 kills because there was shared kills that he gave to members of his squadron. I also know he viewed over 10 air-to-air kills.



Read the same thing - I think though, if true he would of wanted to claim the magic "5." This would of been great PR back home. 



plan_D said:


> The fact that hardly anyone likes Arabs has nothing to do with it.


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## plan_D (Aug 7, 2005)

I suppose I could buy his book...


...but really, I don't want to right now.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 7, 2005)

Cause you're probably drinking a beer!


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## plan_D (Aug 7, 2005)

You know me too well.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 7, 2005)

Yep - I'm doing the same thing!


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## Nonskimmer (Aug 7, 2005)

Hey, me too. What a co-inky dinck, eh?  
I've read about Sharky, but the problem is I've forgotten it all. Maybe I'll look it up again.


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## Wanker1967 (Oct 30, 2007)

plan_D said:


> And I'm not too sure but there probably should be some Royal Navy pilots in that list from the Falklands war. Since on the first day alone 23 Argentine aircraft were shot down by the 20 Sea Harriers operating over the Falklands from Hermes and Invincible (Another 17 were lost to ground fire on that same day).



Wrong!!!!

, 3 British pilots made 3 kills during the Falklands war and therefor was the highest killers, Lt CDR War, FLLT Steve Thomas and FLLT H Morgan, Thomas's 3 kills where all jet (one Mirage 3 and 2 Daggers)

The British did NOT shoot down 23 airplanes the first day, but they did make 23 air to air kills during the whole war.....

The first day saw 3 kills, Paul Barton got a Mirage 3, Allan Curtis (KIA) a Canberra and Bertie Penford a Dagger, another Mirage 3 was damaged by Steve Thomas and later shot down by own AAA while trying to land at Port Stanley 

Lt CDR Ward also damaged a T34C Mentor


Bo
Denmark


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## plan_D (Oct 31, 2007)

You boring arse, I was corrected on that ages ago.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 31, 2007)

Well look at his name Marc!


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## plan_D (Oct 31, 2007)

valid point


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 31, 2007)




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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 31, 2007)

You gotta read though all the posts man!


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## Haztoys (Oct 31, 2007)

This all looks good but one Vadim Petrovic (Soviet) 6..Were and what war did he get 6 kills ...? ...Afghanistan..??..Were...??? ...Just strange to me...


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 31, 2007)

Haztoys said:


> This all looks good but one Vadim Petrovic (Soviet) 6..Were and what war did he get 6 kills ...? ...Afghanistan..??..Were...??? ...Just strange to me...



He was an IP serving with the NVAF.


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## Haztoys (Oct 31, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> He was an IP serving with the NVAF.



I was thinking he must of flew for someone else...And what does IP stand for...?.. ...


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 31, 2007)

Haztoys said:


> I was thinking he must of flew for someone else...And what does IP stand for...?.. ...



Instructor Pilot


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## Wanker1967 (Nov 2, 2007)

plan_D said:


> You boring arse, I was corrected on that ages ago.



Talk nice and polite...I will try to do so

Even the correction was only half good...so now you know

And no sharkey Ward was not top gun because his Kills where not all jet, ( 1 dagger, 1 Pucara and 1 C 130), where on the other hand Steve Thomas got 3 Kills, all Jet 

quote:

"senior Sea Harrier adviser to the Command on the tactics, direction and progress of the air war"

And no Sharkey was the CO of the NAS 801 and nothing more, the Adviser for Admiral Woodeard was a Commander Honeyball
One of Sharkey's main points of his book is that the flag (commander) did not know **** about the Seaharrier and its avionics and therefore the brits lost more ships than they needed to


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## plan_D (Nov 3, 2007)

Oh god, they're all coming out of the woodwork ... 

I knew before you came wading in with dumbass name and attitude... you honestly think I would care if you spoke nicely or politely to me? Unless you got something NEW to add to old threads, just deal with mistakes in the more recent ones ... y'know, the ones people haven't forgotten about.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 3, 2007)




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## Wanker1967 (Nov 8, 2007)

plan_D said:


> Oh god, they're all coming out of the woodwork ...
> 
> I knew before you came wading in with dumbass name and attitude... you honestly think I would care if you spoke nicely or politely to me? Unless you got something NEW to add to old threads, just deal with mistakes in the more recent ones ... y'know, the ones people haven't forgotten about.




all right then

stop whining you powerty striken, sexualy opressed football holigan.... you fvcked up and wrote loads of crab....

learn to live with it like I have since I realized that I like men.


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## Wildcat (Nov 8, 2007)

Tread lighty dude. People around here have got more respect for Plan_D than some newbie called Wanker. I suspect a severve anal reaming is close at hand.....


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 8, 2007)

Wanker1967 said:


> all right then
> 
> stop whining you powerty striken, sexualy opressed football holigan.... you fvcked up and wrote loads of crab....
> 
> learn to live with it


Evidently Chernobyl fall out was abundant in your part of the world - 3 posts and you've proven you're either retarded, brain dead or both - you've got 2 strikes dumbass and some time off - sit in the corner with a dunce cap and decide if you really want to be here....

@sshole..........


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## The Basket (Nov 9, 2007)

The Colonel Toon thing is interesting. The pilot was killed on a particular day so just ask the Vietnamese which pilots were KIA on that day flying a Fresco, who was experienced and you have your Colonel Toon.

or is that too easy?

I guess the pilot could have been Soviet or War Pac so would have been unknown to the Vietnamese. His true identity would have to be covered up. It would make sense for the Soviets to get involved as they could learn American tactics and how to combat them.


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## JoeB (Nov 9, 2007)

The Basket said:


> The Colonel Toon thing is interesting. The pilot was killed on a particular day so just ask the Vietnamese which pilots were KIA on that day flying a Fresco, who was experienced and you have your Colonel Toon.
> 
> or is that too easy?


That action occurred May 10, 1972. The USAF credited pilots with 3 victories over MiG-21's that day for 2 losses of F-4's. The USN credited a MiG-21 and 7 MiG-17's without loss, 3 of the MiG-17's by Cunningham and Driscoll.

A Soviet GRU (military intel) account of the war written in 1977 and declassified later has a chronology of the air war which says the VPAF claimed 7 F-4's that day for the loss of 2 MiG-21's a MiG-19 and 2 MiG-17's, with one of the MiG-17 pilots killed. 

Istvan Toperczer's books "Air War Over North Vietnam" and "MiG-17 and MiG-19 Units of the Vietnam War" are closely based on the VPAF official history. That account is the same, two MiG-17's lost that day, with the two MiG-17 pilots named as Nguyen Van Tho and Nguyen Hang, latter claimed to have been gunned by the F-4's in his parachute and killed (USN F-4's of course had no integral gun, and while they could carry Mk.4 20mm pods, didn't at the stage of the war AFAIK). He notes no mention of a Tomb (or Toon) in Vietnamese accounts, no Colonel among their pilots, and 'Tomb' isn't a Vietnamese name nor does it sound close to any.

I'd like to see actual Vietnamese records (I guess I have to learn Vietnamese  ) before saying 'that's what happened', 2 MiG-17's only, but seems to be what they say happened. 'Col Tomb' or Toon or whatever is some garbling that became a sea story, I think that's fairly clear.

On non-Vietnamese pilots fighting with VPAF there's real evidence of that wrt North Koreans, though none specifically in this combat or necessarily in the 1972 period. The Soviet account mentioned above doesn't say anything about foreign pilots though. I'd also note that Soviet instructors in for example Egypt in 1956 (during the Anglo-French strikes on the Egyptian AF), and North Korean prop fighter units in Korea (separately from the well documented extensive involvement of Soviet AF MiG-15 units in that war) have told stories of their own missions and victories which aren't backed up by anything else. Also in Korea even for the MiG units, particular pilots have told stories like 'I met this captured US pilot, he told me he flew for Luftwaffe in WWII' etc and other wild stuff not corroborated by declassed official accounts (the US pilot in question crashed at sea, his recovered ID card was merely shown to Soviet MiG pilots most said, but one had come up with this tall tale based on the incident). These stories are often printed in Russian language publications like air enthusiast magazines, with the authors often responsibly noting they've no proof beside the first hand story, but then when it shows up in English on the web it's 'the Russians say'. So I'd take the Russian 'Vietnam ace' with a grain of salt. What's the original source?

Joe


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 9, 2007)

Joe, I have suspicions about the Soviet GRU report because during that period you had "College Eye" off shore during many of these engagements. I met guys who flew 121s as well as F-4s and most of the time the operators in the "eye" aircraft knew the bogeys, witnessed the engagement and were able to verify the kill.

F-4s gunning a guy in his parachute? Nonsense!

As far as Col Toon? I think it was a Russian but we may never know....


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 9, 2007)

I think this is were we get the Russian guy from...

Jan J. Safarik: Air Aces Home Page


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## renrich (Nov 9, 2007)

I agree Flyboy that the Toon guy was probably not Vietnamese but some other nationality that no one is going to admit to. What nonsense about F4s gunning a pilot in a parachute. I have read of and seen Cunningham's description of that fight on numerous occasions and it seems the Mig 17's pilot was highly skilled. Interesting what has happened to Cunningham since this thread was started!


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## JoeB (Nov 9, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> I think this is were we get the Russian guy from...


So I figured. And I believe Safarik read that somewhere, he's a reasonable guy. He's Czech I think and I know there are interesting articles about Soviet stuff in Czech as well as Ukranian and Russian aviation magazines so something like that probably. I meant where it came from *originally*. I'll look into it more.

On Tomb/Toon if I were a betting man I'd bet again it's garbled reference from some SIGINT intercept, then took on a life of its own, and there never was any Col. Tomb. An earlier cut and paste in this thread also mentioned that Marshall Michel, author of 'Clashes' mainly about USAF air combat in Vietnam and its problems, and RF-4 pilot himself, doesn't believe there was a Col Tomb either. If he was Vietnamese, there's no good explanation why the Vietnamese don't celebrate him like their other claimed aces. Anyone can say 'Soviet' but where's any evidence? By 1972 the VPAF had 7 years of its own combat experience, more successfully than any other major MiG force in the Cold War, including the Soviets in Korea and their documented disastrous combat v the Israeli's during the War of Attrition. And those other once sensitive Soviet involvements are declassified, but this one is the perfect secret... It would just be very convenient if the episode was explained by Soviet pilots that late in the war. And where does the Col Tomb story actually come from? nobody seems to know that, it's not an official USN claim.

I mentioned NK pilots in Vietnam, and how there's actual evidence for that. I went back and checked the article: "A Debt of Blood" by James Zumwault in USNI Proceedings Nov 2001. The NK foreign minister visited Vietnam and stopped at a cemetary with 14 North Korean graves. Vietnamese officials told Zumwalt at least some were pilots who flew MiG-17's together with the VPAF but this only for a relatively brief period in 1967, Vietnamese photo's showed Vietnamese pilots thanking their Korean comrades and saying goodbye, in 1967.

Joe


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## Matt308 (Nov 11, 2007)

Interesting and thought provoking. Good post JoeB.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 11, 2007)

Yes indeed, all very interesting....

It would not surprise me to learn that North Korean pilots did fly with the VNAF during the periods stated. Where I have suspicions relating their actions to the 1972 Cunningham engagement was the tactics used by the pilot in question and the seemingly "independence" he had of ground controllers. From what I always read the NVAF strictly controlled the Mig-21s and used the Mig-17 as sought of a "sniper," coming into a fight when an enemy force was at a disadvantage (Bomb laden F-105s for example). In many of the recorded engagements I've read, it seems that the only times the NVAF were on their own was when they were being hunted at their disadvantage and at that point they would run like hell. Dan Cherry spoke of this during a CJAA meeting at Tinker AFB several years ago and this also seems the case in the old Drendel publication "And Kill Migs." The guy Cunningham fought seemed to be "independent" thus surfacing the rumours of a Russian or maybe even some other East Block pilot. In reading information about the North Korean AF, I wold seriously doubt that an exchange or instructor pilot would of engaged with such unorthodox tactics, but again my opinion.....


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## fer-de-lance (Nov 11, 2007)

Hard to argue against the Israeli aces - especially the ones who scored up close with DEFA cannons.

If the Fleet Air Arm pilots in the Falklands gets an "honorable mention", then recon and ELINT pilots who turn the tables on interceptors and score "double kills" should get one too.

The "Shao-lin" Monastery of Kung-fu fame is located on the top of Song-shan. On one night mission (Nov. 19, 1960), an enterprising Chinese Nationalist RB-69A pilot (Maj. Tai, Shu-ching) from the 34th "Bat" ELINT squadron caused *two* PLAAF nightfighter to fly into terrain - one of them just below the summit of Song-shan (missing the monastery above). The PLAAF 25th Air Division, 74th regiment lost two Tu-2P (ironically also code-named "Bat" by NATO) which were specially modified to carry the RP-5 AI radar. Both sets of 4-man crew were also lost. (A month later, another RB-69A pilot, Maj. Li, Te-feng, led a pursuing MiG-17PF from the PLAAF 9th Air Division into the Zhijing Mountains in Guangdong Province and caused it to slam into one of the peaks in the dark. Probably could have gotten more but the "Crows" on the RB-69A heard the PLAAF GCI called off the other MiG-17PF's).

Col. "Gimo" Yang, Shi-chu, later to gain fame as the commander of the Chinese Nationalist 35th "Black Cat" U-2 squadron also caused the loss of two PLAAF interceptors. This happened on April 18th, 1958 when Yang and a wingman from the 12th Tactical Recon Squadron on a photo recon mission in RF-84F were intercepted by two MiG-17F from the PLAAF 9th Air Division, 27th Regiment. Gimo led the PLAAF interceptors in a dangerous low level chase though the hills before eluding them. The two hapless MiG drivers spent a little too long in afterburner and ended up ejecting when their fuel ran out before they could reach their base at Xin-cheng.


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## skhm (Feb 12, 2008)

Cool list of air aces posted by les, although I think (technically) incomplete. The U.S. awards "ace" status not only to pilots, but also to backseaters (such as RIO's in F-14's for example.) So, by that definition, Willy "Irish" Driscoll ("Duke" Cunningham's backseater) is also technically listed as an American ace. Kudos to les for a great list, and I realize it is a very technical point, since most people list only pilots, but it is a valid point I think. I seem to recall that Robin Olds (who flew in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam) got 4 kills, but that his backseater (I can't remember his name) actually had 5 kills as well (4 under Olds and 1 under another pilot.)
Again, don't mean to be a technical *bleep* splitting hairs and all, but just something to keep in mind when listing aces.


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## flojo (Feb 19, 2008)

Interesting point with the backseaters. I think there is also a number of Israeli navigators who earned back seat ace status and these should of course also be included (Mainly from F4E crews)


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## ezlead (Feb 19, 2008)

TODAY's greatest Ace would have to be Epstein.
Last year I would have picked Robin Olds.
3 wars 17 kills. P-38's and P-51's vs 109's and 190's up to F-4's vs Migs.
In any 'dogfight' it's the driver and Olds was one He** of a driver.
Olds got into a lot of trouble during his career bucking heads with the Higher Ups. Red Flag,Top Gun and every military fighter having a gun can somewhat be attributed to Olds. He wasn't afraid to get what he wanted for his pilots.


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## fer-de-lance (Feb 27, 2008)

Old's WSO in his MiG-killing missions were:

1st Lt. Charles Clifton (Jan. 2nd, 1967, MiG-21 "Operation Bolo")
1st. Lt. William D. Lafever(May 2nd, 1967, MiG-21)
1st LT Stephen Croker (May 20th, 1967, 2 MiG-17)

Capt. Jeffrey Feinstein was the only WSO other than DeBellevue who was credited with 5 victories in Vietnam (April - October 1972, with four different pilots, Maj. Dan Cherry, Capt. Bruce Leonard, Lt. Col. Carl Baily[2] and Lt Col Curtis Westphal ).


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