# Everything WE know is wrong.



## SaparotRob (Dec 9, 2020)

Inspired by posts on the December 7, 1941 thread. 
This is for the dumb or flat out wrong things we have heard about aviation or history in general.


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## rochie (Dec 9, 2020)

but there are so many !

more Bf 109's were destroyed in landing accidents than were shot down.

all RAF aircraft were fragile

Spitfire was a one trick pony

Spitfire was not a very good one trick pony

P-51's only shot down lots of aircraft because it turned up when the air war was already won

P-39 was the best single engine fighter of the war

British handed out VC's like lollipop

having guns on the engine cowl were twice as effective as guns in the wing

those were just from this forum !

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## Marcel (Dec 9, 2020)

I think what is wrong is the idea that a seaotter has a nuttsack.

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## SaparotRob (Dec 9, 2020)

rochie said:


> but there are so many !
> 
> more Bf 109's were destroyed in landing accidents than were shot down.
> 
> ...


Sorry Rochie, those were myths we busted. I’m thinking more of the lines of:
“Airplanes don’t carry torpedoes.”
“The Germans weren’t in World War Two.”
“What war was Saving Private Ryan? The first one, I think.”
You know, the good ones.


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## Crimea_River (Dec 9, 2020)

Sadly, there are still those who think, and preach, that the Holocaust never happened. Can't get much worse than that.

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## rochie (Dec 9, 2020)

SaparotRob said:


> Sorry Rochie, those were myths we busted. I’m thinking more of the lines of:
> “Airplanes don’t carry torpedoes.”
> “The Germans weren’t in World War Two.”
> “What war was Saving Private Ryan? The first one, I think.”
> You know, the good ones.


Ah, ok will have a think


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## michaelmaltby (Dec 9, 2020)

Crimea_River said:


> Can't get much worse than that.



Wanna bet ...?

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## SaparotRob (Dec 9, 2020)

michaelmaltby said:


> Wanna bet ...?


Sadly, I agree.

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## pbehn (Dec 9, 2020)

Having watched "Dunkirk", when a Spitfire hits the red on the fuel gauge it still has an hour left in "movie" combat, but didn't really need the engine running anyway.

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## Airframes (Dec 9, 2020)

Not particularly on topic, but again referring to the movie "Dunkirk".
In the reasonably done ( but not exceptional ) aerial sequences, when the Spitfire is firing at the He-111 ( which I will admit was an excellent, large scale RC model, used and photographed very well), where was the sound of cannon fire coming from ?
It can be heard during the cockpit view sequences, as a thump - thump - thump, a much slower RoF, and a "heavier" sound, than the Spitfire's .303 MGs.
It doesn't seem likely that it was supposed to be from the "Bf 109" shown in these scenes, and only one Squadron trialed the cannon-armed Spitfire Mk1 (19 Sqn), but this was _after_ Dunkirk, and it can't have been from the MG15s on the Heinkel.
Did the producers possibly assume that Spits had cannons, as standard, in May / June 1940 ?

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## Crimea_River (Dec 9, 2020)

michaelmaltby said:


> Wanna bet ...?





SaparotRob said:


> Sadly, I agree.



What's a worse perversion of history? I'm sure there are lots of examples of lies but this needs to be near the top.

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## GrauGeist (Dec 9, 2020)

Then check out this thread:

History according to random people...

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## SaparotRob (Dec 9, 2020)

Incredible.


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## michaelmaltby (Dec 10, 2020)

.... insane,  

but, _not _insane ...

".... What's a worse perversion of history?" .. you ask. 

My Answer: The perversion of allowing the infinity larger legacy of Bolshevik monstrosities to be 'accepted' , 'forgiven', 'understood' by our society: schools, media, churches, governments.

PBS runs a Five Part Documentary around the rise of Nazism - a political, tribal, racial perversion that survived for 15 years.
PBS does NOT run documentaries called "The Bolsheviks: Terrorists to Totalitarians - the Bloody Road Still Unfolds.

If I had lived in Berlin and saw ANTIFA running amok in 30's - 1933 .... I would want them STOPPED. Period.

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## Crimea_River (Dec 10, 2020)

I was talking about someone publicly flat out denying that something happened. PBS, and anyone else for that matter, NOT doing a documentary or publicly acknowledging an atrocity isn't comparable.


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## michaelmaltby (Dec 10, 2020)

.. assuming PBS and others are 'educated' people ... then what you are accepting is called 'credible denial', IIUC.
You forget that our values speak every time we open our mouths ... as a culture ... and what WE DON"T DISCUSS speaks as loudly in its silence as what we do ..... both praising and shaming.
The Holodomor is certainly the equal of the Holocaust in deaths .... and was as certainly planned and executed as any Nazi extermination ... and ... on and on ...
The West didn't report it then and have 'rationalized' it ever since ...


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## GrauGeist (Dec 10, 2020)

michaelmaltby said:


> If I had lived in Berlin and saw ANTIFA running amok in 30's - 1933 .... I would want them STOPPED. Period.


Just this last Summer, I had a young person explain how Antifa was doing the American people a service by eradicating Nazis. After a moment of disbelief, I asked them if they actually understood what Antifa was about and they said "Yes! They stopped Nazis in Germany and they will liberate America, too!"
I replied, but kiddo, I think you should have studied history a little harder, Antifaschist Aktion was wiped out by the Sturm Abteilung in the 1930's".
She said "uh, who is that?"
I replied: "The Nazis..."

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## Crimea_River (Dec 10, 2020)

Not going to get into a pissing contest over who are the biggest liars Mike.

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## michaelmaltby (Dec 10, 2020)

... agreed. This is not the place.
But _you_ set the benchmark, I didn't ...
" ... Can't get much worse than that."


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## P-39 Expert (Dec 10, 2020)

What idiot said the P-39 was the best single engine fighter of the war?

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## rochie (Dec 10, 2020)

P-39 Expert said:


> What idiot said the P-39 was the best single engine fighter of the war?


Ok, ok i may have exaggerated that one a bit

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## Crimea_River (Dec 10, 2020)

It would have been if it weren't so fragile, right Karl?


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## oldcolt357 (Dec 10, 2020)

The one myth mentioned about the P51 pilots shooting down a lot of enemy aircraft because it arrived late in the war when the German pilots were not well trained- isn't that one true?


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## pbehn (Dec 10, 2020)

oldcolt357 said:


> The one myth mentioned about the P51 pilots shooting down a lot of enemy aircraft because it arrived late in the war when the German pilots were not well trained- isn't that one true?


Not in my opinion correct, though training of LW pilots did get worse as the war went on, no plane won the air war on its own, but the P-51 has cause to claim to be the best at what it did and what it did was what was wanted.

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## SaparotRob (Dec 10, 2020)

P-39 Expert said:


> What idiot said the P-39 was the best single engine fighter of the war?


It might have been me.

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## yosimitesam (Dec 10, 2020)

Airframes said:


> Not particularly on topic, but again referring to the movie "Dunkirk".
> In the reasonably done ( but not exceptional ) aerial sequences, when the Spitfire is firing at the He-111 ( which I will admit was an excellent, large scale RC model, used and photographed very well), where was the sound of cannon fire coming from ?
> It can be heard during the cockpit view sequences, as a thump - thump - thump, a much slower RoF, and a "heavier" sound, than the Spitfire's .303 MGs.
> It doesn't seem likely that it was supposed to be from the "Bf 109" shown in these scenes, and only one Squadron trialed the cannon-armed Spitfire Mk1 (19 Sqn), but this was _after_ Dunkirk, and it can't have been from the MG15s on the Heinkel.
> Did the producers possibly assume that Spits had cannons, as standard, in May / June 1940 ?



Consider this min-narrative: 
Director: "The gun fire in this sequence sounds like popcorn. Put some 'umph in the sound. Slow it down, make it louder and bang-y-er." 
Producer (while also talking to his girlfriend on the phone): "I agree. The sound is crap.... What, honey?"
Continuity/Script Editor: "But the Spitfires did not have 20mm at that time, only .303 machine guns. It would be historically inaccurate." 
Director: "Hell, nobody will know the difference. Just fix the damn sound in that sequence. Make it go 'bang', 'bang', 'bang', but really loud and thunderous."
Producer: "Yea, fix it. ... Did you make our reservations, sweetie?"
"Whatever." - Sound effects guy.

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## SaparotRob (Dec 10, 2020)

Okay, I don’t know if I should admit this.
Years ago in High School my buddy loved the F-4 Phantom. I loved the P-51 at the time (don’t tell any B-17’s). I said that the Mustang could take the Phantom. He actually got angry with me. Well, as self-admittedly wrong as I was, I could not let this opportunity pass. I just kept at it, he would get angrier. This went on for a while. The piece de resistance was my issue of “Mustang Comics”. There were even (incorrectly marked) Mustang II’s with P-51A’s and D’s shooting Phantoms out of the sky. I think I just realized what a troll is. 
He’s became a Green Beret. I stopped rattling his cage.


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## Dana Bell (Dec 10, 2020)

_Everything we know is wrong_...

Might be true! How about these three tests of our common knowledge:

- Name the famous American who coined the saying, "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."

- Name the American president who started the program with the goal of putting a man on the moon by 1969.

- True or False: The battle for Midway Island is generally considered the turning point of World War II in the Pacific.

Just 'cause we ALL know something doesn't make it true; check here tomorrow for the real answers to these tests...

Cheers,



Dana


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## MIflyer (Dec 10, 2020)

I think the biggest one is the idea that the German Nazis were "Right Wing" and the Soviet Communists were "Left Wing."

There was barely a dime's worth of difference between the Soviets and Nazis. Both were Socialists. Both believed in totalitarian governments, where even thoughts were controlled. The Soviet definition of "fascist" was essentially, "People who are like us in their approach to government but are not us."

So the Nazis were "Right" of the Soviets in that they believed in allowing private companies, as in Junkers versus Tractor Factory No. 4. But both the Soviets and Nazis were so far Left of the founders of the USA that you'd need the Hubble Space telescope to see them from there.

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## MIflyer (Dec 10, 2020)

Dana Bell said:


> True or False: The battle for Midway Island is generally considered the turning point of World War II in the Pacific.



Well, you hear that one a lot, but the guy who wrote the book Islands of Destiny argues that it was the Solomans Campaign that was real turning point. As he puts it, even after Midway the IJN was very cabable, as was illustrated that they virtually wiped out the USN's Pacific cruiser force. But when the main events were over in the Solomans the IJN had slunk out with its tail between its legs.


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## SaparotRob (Dec 10, 2020)

Dana Bell said:


> _Everything we know is wrong_...
> 
> Might be true! How about these three tests of our common knowledge:
> 
> ...


As to the “true/false” question, do we give the right answer or the correct answer?

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## Dana Bell (Dec 10, 2020)

The right answer or the correct answer - either will do. Most sources will agree about the turning point, but clearly it's a trick question anyway...

Cheers,



Dana

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## GrauGeist (Dec 10, 2020)

The Battle of the Solomons was a protracted campaign involving numerous engagements on land, sea and air. The joint effort by the Allies came at a price, but it cost the Japanese considerably in men, aircraft, ships and territory.

The Battle of Midway was more of a single engagement where the outcome was decided literally in the space of hours.
At the cost of one fleet carrier, the USN both denied Japan's objective of taking Midway Island and claimed four fleet carriers, which Japan could not replace and greatly reduced their ability for force projection.

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## Greg Boeser (Dec 11, 2020)

MIflyer said:


> I think the biggest one is the idea that the German Nazis were "Right Wing" and the Soviet Communists were "Left Wing."
> 
> There was barely a dime's worth of difference between the Soviets and Nazis. Both were Socialists. Both believed in totalitarian governments, where even thoughts were controlled. The Soviet definition of "fascist" was essentially, "People who are like us in their approach to government but are not us."
> 
> So the Nazis were "Right" of the Soviets in that they believed in allowing private companies, as in Junkers versus Tractor Factory No. 4. But both the Soviets and Nazis were so far Left of the founders of the USA that you'd need the Hubble Space telescope to see them from there.


Reminds me of an interview with economist Thomas Sowell during the Obama presidency. Sowell was asked whether he thought Obama was a socialist. After mulling the question for a moment he replied, no, he did not think Obama was a socialist, because socialism espouses government ownership of the means of production. He's more a Fascist. Fascism leaves the means of production in private hands, but heavily controls it. Fascism is a much more viable political system because when things go wrong you can always blame big business.

Love that guy.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 11, 2020)

Obama a fascist...lol

Seriously though, enough of the politics please.


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## Dana Bell (Dec 11, 2020)

_Everything we know is wrong_...

So here are the answers I was looking for:

- Name the famous American who coined the saying, "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."

We all know it was Kennedy, but the original quote was from Benjamin Franklin, and it was well known. See the 1944 Little Rascals/Our Gang comedy _Benjamin Franklin Jr _where the kids use and reuse the quote in a radio program about patriotism. Early books on Franklin's wit and wisdom include the quote, though it rarely (if at all) turns up in Franklin histories written after 1961.

- Name the American president who started the program with the goal of putting a man on the moon by 1969.

I'm not picking on Kennedy here - he certainly did a great deal to push through the US space program. But it was Eisenhower who created NASA in 1958. One of the original 1958 NASA goals was to place a man on the moon by 1969. The program was well underway when Kennedy took office - watch for the famous shot of the original seven Mercury astronauts standing with the F-106 at Langley. It was dated 20 January 1961, the day of Kennedy's innauguration. (Still, it's odd that none of the space race documentaries we see on US TV even mention Ike.)

- True or False: The battle for Midway Island is generally considered the turning point of World War II in the Pacific.

Clearly false. Regardless of what the actual turning point was, there is no "Midway Island." Midway is an archepelago comprising Eastern Island and Sand Island.

Anyway, everything we know is full of almost truths, and a few outright lies. These are just three of my favorites...

Cheers,



Dana

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## MIflyer (Dec 11, 2020)

Who said that Japan had awakened a "sleeping giant" with the 7 Dec 41 attack?

It was NOT Adm Yammoto. They made that up for the end of the movie 'Tora, Tora, Tora." In reality, a US newsman said that in his commentary on the evening of 7 Dec 1941. He said that if a giant was sleeping you might be able to get some licks in, but when that giant wakes up .....

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## Marcel (Dec 11, 2020)

Dana Bell said:


> _Everything we know is wrong_...
> 
> So here are the answers I was looking for:
> 
> ...


I thought it was Eddy Murphy in The Distinguished Gentleman


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## pbehn (Dec 11, 2020)

MIflyer said:


> Who said that Japan had awakened a "sleeping giant" with the 7 Dec 41 attack?
> 
> It was NOT Adm Yammoto. They made that up for the end of the movie 'Tora, Tora, Tora." In reality, a US newsman said that in his commentary on the evening of 7 Dec 1941. He said that if a giant was sleeping you might be able to get some licks in, but when that giant wakes up .....


Maybe using artistic license to paraphrase a quote by Napoleon "“China is a sleeping giant. Let her sleep, for when she wakes she will move the world.”

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## SaparotRob (Dec 11, 2020)

Dana Bell said:


> _Everything we know is wrong_...
> 
> So here are the answers I was looking for:
> 
> ...


 How about that, everything I know is wrong. I certainly should’ve remembered Midway atoll of which Sand and Eastern islands are part of. I fell for that one.

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## swampyankee (Dec 11, 2020)

michaelmaltby said:


> .... insane,
> 
> but, _not _insane ...
> 
> ...



The trouble with that is that the nazis were doing most of the running amok. This isn't saying that the German left was entirely innocent; they were perfectly willing to break heads. 
The right in Germany had been intent on destroying the German republic from the time the German Army lost WW1; they succeeded with the nazis. The major difference between the rise of the nazis and the bolsheviks is that the nazis subverted a creaky, but vaguely functional, democracy, while bolshevism was either imposed by external force (all of eastern Europe) or violent revolution.

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## GrauGeist (Dec 11, 2020)

From a 1930's *historical context *and not engaging in the political aspect, there were 8 left-wing parties, 19 right-wing parties with 8 central parties. Add to that, the 14 non-affiliated parties plus the 20 unions and organizations and it becomes clear that the system in Germany was a hot mess and a confusing "mine field" for the average German citizen.

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## Snautzer01 (Dec 11, 2020)

GrauGeist said:


> From a 1930's *historical context *and not engaging in the political aspect, there were 8 left-wing parties, 19 right-wing parties with 8 central parties. Add to that, the 14 non-affiliated parties plus the 20 unions and organizations and it becomes clear that the system in Germany was a hot mess and a confusing "mine field" for the average German citizen.


And Germany was not the only country being torn apart from the inside out.

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## pbehn (Dec 11, 2020)

oldcolt357 said:


> The one myth mentioned about the P51 pilots shooting down a lot of enemy aircraft because it arrived late in the war when the German pilots were not well trained- isn't that one true?


I also wouldn't agree that the P-51 arrived late in the war. Mustang Mk Is and P-51As were coming into service just after the USA entered the war. You can construct a fantasy scenario of P-51 airframes being shipped to UK and fitted with RR two stage Merlins in summer 1942. This would have reduced the number of Spitfire IXs and Mustang 1s available to the RAF and the number of P-51As and A-36s available to the USA, all four types were needed and used. Having some Merlin P-51s in mid 1942 may have been an advantage as far as a strategic bombing campaign but the USA in mid 1942 didn't have suitable bombers or the "infrastructure" to prosecute the campaign. Between the Dieppe raid in 1942 when the USA first used the B-17 in numbers and the RAF used the Allison Mustang and Spitfire IX and the start of "big week" in 1944 huge changes were made, not only to the aircraft but also to the knowledge, strategy and execution of raids. The P-51 didn't arrive late, the most photogenic of the stable, the P-51D arrived when it arrived but sometimes is given credit for what its forebears, the P-51B/C achieved in bomber escort missions. It is pilots who score victories, some flew P-47s from start to finish, some flew only P-38s some only P-51s and some flew the whole lot and others too, in Europe and elsewhere.

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## GrauGeist (Dec 11, 2020)

Snautzer01 said:


> And Germany was not the only country being torn apart from the inside out.


Agreed.
Greece, Spain, Italy and the Central Balkans just to name a few.

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## yosimitesam (Dec 11, 2020)

Shall we address the Owen J. Baggett episode where he was hailed as the only person to shoot down a Japanese Zero with a .45 pistol? Supposedly the Jap pilot flew close to him, while he was descending in his parachute from his mortally damaged B24, and the Jap pilot slowed down, opened his canopy, and flew slowly near Baggett, wherein he took out his .45 and fired 4 shots. Several other airmen in parachutes claimed he hit the pilot because they saw the Zero plummet toward earth. However, Wiki states that Japanese records clearly show they had no casualties in this particular encounter. Personally I doubt it happened and I bring up the subject only because Lt. Baggett and I happen share the same last name, although we are unrelated, AFIK.


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## GrauGeist (Dec 11, 2020)

It's possible the pilot regained control after being shot.
A .45 caliber round is no joke and since the other IJA pilots were shooting crewmen in the silk, you can be sure I'd be doing the same thing.
In regards to pistols versus pilots - this is how armed conflicts between enemy pilots started during WWI.


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## P-39 Expert (Dec 12, 2020)

pbehn said:


> I also wouldn't agree that the P-51 arrived late in the war. Mustang Mk Is and P-51As were coming into service just after the USA entered the war. You can construct a fantasy scenario of P-51 airframes being shipped to UK and fitted with RR two stage Merlins in summer 1942. This would have reduced the number of Spitfire IXs and Mustang 1s available to the RAF and the number of P-51As and A-36s available to the USA, all four types were needed and used. Having some Merlin P-51s in mid 1942 may have been an advantage as far as a strategic bombing campaign but the USA in mid 1942 didn't have suitable bombers or the "infrastructure" to prosecute the campaign. Between the Dieppe raid in 1942 when the USA first used the B-17 in numbers and the RAF used the Allison Mustang and Spitfire IX and the start of "big week" in 1944 huge changes were made, not only to the aircraft but also to the knowledge, strategy and execution of raids. The P-51 didn't arrive late, the most photogenic of the stable, the P-51D arrived when it arrived but sometimes is given credit for what its forebears, the P-51B/C achieved in bomber escort missions. It is pilots who score victories, some flew P-47s from start to finish, some flew only P-38s some only P-51s and some flew the whole lot and others too, in Europe and elsewhere.


All true, but you must admit that German pilot quality had declined by December 1943 when the Merlin Mustangs got to England. And the 8th AF could have used those Mustangs in August and October on the disastrous Schweinfurt raids.

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## pbehn (Dec 12, 2020)

P-39 Expert said:


> All true, but you must admit that German pilot quality had declined by December 1943 when the Merlin Mustangs got to England. And the 8th AF could have used those Mustangs in August and October on the disastrous Schweinfurt raids.


A topic others know much better than I. P-51B and Cs started to arrive in August 1943, but one of their first jobs was as advanced trainers for partially trained pilots arriving from USA. To have them available in squadron service in large numbers needs a whole shift in the time line, not only for the P-51 but also for everyone involved. Many were still wedded to the doctrine of the bomber getting through. Many airfields were under construction. You also need the longer range P-47s and P-38s with pilots. The Schweinfurt raids exposed more than just a need for escorts, the whole planning and execution of a raid needed to be looked at as regards weather recon and timing which was much more difficult than people imagined and ploughing on regardless when things start to go FUBAR isn't heroic, it kills lots of people for little result.

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## yosimitesam (Dec 14, 2020)

GrauGeist said:


> It's possible the pilot regained control after being shot.
> A .45 caliber round is no joke and since the other IJA pilots were shooting crewmen in the silk, you can be sure I'd be doing the same thing.
> In regards to pistols versus pilots - this is how armed conflicts between enemy pilots started during WWI.



It's certainly theoretically possible. The Japanese records indicate it wasn't a 'kill', of course. The most likely sequence of events, in my rational mind, is something like this: (1) Jap approaches slow with cockpit open to determine if he is alive or dead. (2) Lt. Baggett "plays dead" (he admits this in his statements) (3) The Jap pilot decides he is dead and quits looking directly at him. (4) At this moment, Lt. Baggett pulls his .45 and fires but the projectiles go "over" (probably). (5) The jap pilot is unaware that anything has happened due to the engine and wind noise, and has already decided on his next move, which is a dive, perhaps because he thought he saw other enemy aircraft or other parachutists (6) He dives away, completely unaware he was just involved in the creation of a legend.


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## Snowygrouch (Dec 14, 2020)

oldcolt357 said:


> The one myth mentioned about the P51 pilots shooting down a lot of enemy aircraft because it arrived late in the war when the German pilots were not well trained- isn't that one true?



Depends if you are suggesting that in the western theatre it was easier to score kills in mid 1944 than it was in 1940 as a "general point", or if are suggesting that the P-51 specifically wasn't very good.

( #1=Correct-ish* | #2=VERY wrong)

*Depending on the exact date and which aircraft models had just been introduced


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## GrauGeist (Dec 14, 2020)

yosimitesam said:


> It's certainly theoretically possible. The Japanese records indicate it wasn't a 'kill', of course. The most likely sequence of events, in my rational mind, is something like this: (1) Jap approaches slow with cockpit open to determine if he is alive or dead. (2) Lt. Baggett "plays dead" (he admits this in his statements) (3) The Jap pilot decides he is dead and quits looking directly at him. (4) At this moment, Lt. Baggett pulls his .45 and fires but the projectiles go "over" (probably). (5) The jap pilot is unaware that anything has happened due to the engine and wind noise, and has already decided on his next move, which is a dive, perhaps because he thought he saw other enemy aircraft or other parachutists (6) He dives away, completely unaware he was just involved in the creation of a legend.


It's not hard to hit a large object with a pistol and pilots have been known to recover from serious impacts and return to base - Saburo Sakai is a good (and well documented) example of recovering from being struck in the head by a bullet.
In this case, it was a .30 caliber bullet from a Browning .30 MG in the rear of a SBD, but you get the idea.

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## WATU (Dec 17, 2020)

pbehn said:


> Having watched "Dunkirk", when a Spitfire hits the red on the fuel gauge it still has an hour left in "movie" combat, but didn't really need the engine running anyway.


Just superb design. Engine can be jettisoned to optimise gliding ability.

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## SaparotRob (Dec 17, 2020)

WATU said:


> Just superb design. Engine can be jettisoned to optimise gliding ability.


I never knew that!


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## kalani (Dec 17, 2020)

SaparotRob said:


> Inspired by posts on the December 7, 1941 thread.
> This is for the dumb or flat out wrong things we have heard about aviation or history in general.


Much of what is conventionally held "history" on the attack on Pearl Harbor is flat out propaganda, which is
thereby written into all the books by "parroting" authors.


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## P-39 Expert (Dec 17, 2020)

kalani said:


> Much of what is conventionally held "history" on the attack on Pearl Harbor is flat out propaganda, which is
> thereby written into all the books by "parroting" authors.


I'm all ears.

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## kalani (Dec 17, 2020)

P-39 Expert said:


> I'm all ears.


Airacorbra guy, please allow me to frame a response that is thought out, I'll get back to you.thanks


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## oldcolt357 (Dec 17, 2020)

pbehn said:


> I also wouldn't agree that the P-51 arrived late in the war. Mustang Mk Is and P-51As were coming into service just after the USA entered the war. You can construct a fantasy scenario of P-51 airframes being shipped to UK and fitted with RR two stage Merlins in summer 1942. This would have reduced the number of Spitfire IXs and Mustang 1s available to the RAF and the number of P-51As and A-36s available to the USA, all four types were needed and used. Having some Merlin P-51s in mid 1942 may have been an advantage as far as a strategic bombing campaign but the USA in mid 1942 didn't have suitable bombers or the "infrastructure" to prosecute the campaign. Between the Dieppe raid in 1942 when the USA first used the B-17 in numbers and the RAF used the Allison Mustang and Spitfire IX and the start of "big week" in 1944 huge changes were made, not only to the aircraft but also to the knowledge, strategy and execution of raids. The P-51 didn't arrive late, the most photogenic of the stable, the P-51D arrived when it arrived but sometimes is given credit for what its forebears, the P-51B/C achieved in bomber escort missions. It is pilots who score victories, some flew P-47s from start to finish, some flew only P-38s some only P-51s and some flew the whole lot and others too, in Europe and elsewhere.


You're correct about Mustangs arriving earlier in the war than 1943 if you are including Allison powered A36's. But I remember reading somewhere that during "Big Week" the last week in February 1944 the 8th AF would send out around 800 escort fighters with something like 600 P47s, 100 P38s and 100 P51's. So wouldn't it would seem that well into 1944 it was still largely a Thunderbolt show? And the Mustang only dominating in numbers for the last year in Europe when Luftwaffe pilots were largely kids being sent out with minimal time in their respective ME 109 or FW 190?


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## P-39 Expert (Dec 17, 2020)

kalani said:


> Airacorbra guy, please allow me to frame a response that is thought out, I'll get back to you.thanks


As you may be aware, I love refuting "parroted" information.

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## kalani (Dec 17, 2020)

P-39 Expert said:


> As you may be aware, I love refuting "parroted" information.


I'm very new here but have been around, and into aviation since the time I was four or five. I have researched the attack since my
first visit to the platform above the USS Arizona, not the spanning memorial in 1962. My first point would be an easy one, the statement of the "Japanese came through Kole Kole Pass, many book carry this as eyewitness account, and even though I grew up around several survivors who swear it to be, it is simply not true.
That's just one of so very many . (just for full disclosure; I live on Oahu and much of my research time has been accompanied by searching the jungles for remains
of the attack and such)


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## kalani (Dec 17, 2020)

yosimitesam said:


> Shall we address the Owen J. Baggett episode where he was hailed as the only person to shoot down a Japanese Zero with a .45 pistol? Supposedly the Jap pilot flew close to him, while he was descending in his parachute from his mortally damaged B24, and the Jap pilot slowed down, opened his canopy, and flew slowly near Baggett, wherein he took out his .45 and fired 4 shots. Several other airmen in parachutes claimed he hit the pilot because they saw the Zero plummet toward earth. However, Wiki states that Japanese records clearly show they had no casualties in this particular encounter. Personally I doubt it happened and I bring up the subject only because Lt. Baggett and I happen share the same last name, although we are unrelated, AFIK.


I find it unusual that the airmen would be carrying a M1911A1, in that most survival vests featured a long barreled .38 caliber revolver. I'm not saying no, just unusual.


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## GrauGeist (Dec 17, 2020)

kalani said:


> I find it unusual that the airmen would be carrying a M1911A1, in that most survival vests featured a long barreled .38 caliber revolver. I'm not saying no, just unusual.


My Great Uncle carried a 1911A1 in a shoulder holster - he was a USAAF P-38 pilot in the PTO.

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## pbehn (Dec 17, 2020)

oldcolt357 said:


> You're correct about Mustangs arriving earlier in the war than 1943 if you are including Allison powered A36's. But I remember reading somewhere that during "Big Week" the last week in February 1944 the 8th AF would send out around 800 escort fighters with something like 600 P47s, 100 P38s and 100 P51's. So wouldn't it would seem that well into 1944 it was still largely a Thunderbolt show? And the Mustang only dominating in numbers for the last year in Europe when Luftwaffe pilots were largely kids being sent out with minimal time in their respective ME 109 or FW 190?


I am referring to Mustangs, Mk 1 and or P-51A B/Cs and A 36s. The first Mustang Mk1 kill and loss occurred at Dieppe in August 1942. At the time of Big Week the USA was still building up its capability. I am not a fan boy of any particular type, but there weren't just P-47s and P-38s and P-51s there were various versions of them some with better performance than others, RAF Spitfires were also used. Those with the shortest range were used for covering form up and withdrawal and those with the longest range took the bombers to their targets. The strategy of the combined offensive was to destroy the Luftwaffe as much as possible in the air and on the ground before bombing activities were handed over to prepare for D-Day. This was largely achieved in the main, in so far as the LW was not able to pretend to do anything other than defend deep into the German state. Nothing could really be done for the Normandy beaches. I havnt researched it greatly myself but proper historians, who post here have and from what they posted it was the P-51B/C and D that played the greatest part in wiping out the LW by numbers. If you introduce "pilot quality" as a metric then credit must be given to every Mustang/P-51/A36 marque and also every other marque like the first P-47s and the Spitfires that US "Eagle squadrons" used. Individual USA pilots flew in the RAF going back to the Battle of Britain. There were definitely 7 USA pilots in the Battle of Britain and possibly 4 others using Canadian identity. The three Eagle Squadrons formed between formed in late 1940 and July 1941 had 244 USA pilots serving in them, claiming a total of 73 1/2 kills. The individual victories of USA pilots flying in the RAF must also be added to this figure, all of them, obviously, against Germany's most experienced pilots.
Eagle Squadrons - Wikipedia
Non-British personnel in the RAF during the Battle of Britain - Wikipedia

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## oldcolt357 (Dec 17, 2020)

pbehn said:


> I also wouldn't agree that the P-51 arrived late in the war. Mustang Mk Is and P-51As were coming into service just after the USA entered the war. You can construct a fantasy scenario of P-51 airframes being shipped to UK and fitted with RR two stage Merlins in summer 1942. This would have reduced the number of Spitfire IXs and Mustang 1s available to the RAF and the number of P-51As and A-36s available to the USA, all four types were needed and used. Having some Merlin P-51s in mid 1942 may have been an advantage as far as a strategic bombing campaign but the USA in mid 1942 didn't have suitable bombers or the "infrastructure" to prosecute the campaign. Between the Dieppe raid in 1942 when the USA first used the B-17 in numbers and the RAF used the Allison Mustang and Spitfire IX and the start of "big week" in 1944 huge changes were made, not only to the aircraft but also to the knowledge, strategy and execution of raids. The P-51 didn't arrive late, the most photogenic of the stable, the P-51D arrived when it arrived but sometimes is given credit for what its forebears, the P-51B/C achieved in bomber escort missions. It is pilots who score victories, some flew P-47s from start to finish, some flew only P-38s some only P-51s and some flew the whole lot and others too, in Europe and elsewhere.


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## pbehn (Dec 17, 2020)

I think an editing error 
O
 oldcolt357
?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 17, 2020)

kalani said:


> Airacorbra guy, please allow me to frame a response that is thought out, I'll get back to you.thanks



Airacobra guy.


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## GreenKnight121 (Dec 17, 2020)

kalani said:


> I find it unusual that the airmen would be carrying a M1911A1, in that most survival vests featured a long barreled .38 caliber revolver. I'm not saying no, just unusual.





GrauGeist said:


> My Great Uncle carried a 1911A1 in a shoulder holster - he was a USAAF P-38 pilot in the PTO.



The US Army issued (or gave the option to) its aircrew either the M1911 or a revolver (usually .38 special).

The USN & USMC issued the Smith & Wesson Victory revolver (.38 special), but a few aircrew preferred the M1911 and were able to acquire one (and ammo).

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## GrauGeist (Dec 18, 2020)

The family still has his M3 holster, too.


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## MiTasol (Dec 18, 2020)

michaelmaltby said:


> If I had lived in Berlin and saw ANTIFA running amok in 30's - 1933 .... I would want them STOPPED. Period.



I think you have your wires very badly crossed 
Nazis are *fascists*
Antifa is an abbreviation of *Anti Fa*scist
Therefore you are saying you wanted anyone who was anti-nazi stopped.


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## GrauGeist (Dec 18, 2020)

MiTasol said:


> I think you have your wires very badly crossed
> Nazis are *fascists*
> Antifa is an abbreviation of *Anti Fa*scist
> Therefore you are saying you wanted anyone who was anti-nazi stopped.


Antifaschist Aktion - paramilitary arm of the Deutches Social Democrat party (directly funded by the Soviet Union).

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## Zipper730 (Dec 22, 2020)

rochie said:


> all RAF aircraft were fragile


The Hawker Tempest had an ultimate load factor of 14g.


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## MiTasol (Dec 22, 2020)

GrauGeist said:


> Antifaschist Aktion - paramilitary arm of the Deutches Social Democrat party (directly funded by the Soviet Union).



I did not know that but funnily enough it is still very relevant as much of what the new antifa deplore is the white supremacist neo-nazi propaganda that closely mimics the Aryan supremacist nazi propaganda that primarily caused ww2.

Unlike the original, this new antifa is not a formal grouping (according to the FBI) so cannot be funded from Moscow (though maybe some parts are linked just as certain far right groups/persons are) and too much of their rhetoric is definitely not the sort that Moscow or its toadies want.

I wish there was a movement that represented those of us in the middle who think that both extremes are too extreme for us.

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## GrauGeist (Dec 22, 2020)

MiTasol said:


> I wish there was a movement that represented those of us in the middle who think that both extremes are too extreme for us.


The vast majority of folks like us in the middle are too busy with life (work, kids, volunteering, hobbies, life, checking in on the ww2ac forums, etc.) to be out "protesting" and all that nonsense.

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## Zipper730 (Dec 23, 2020)

GrauGeist


Basically, from what I remember about 8% of the population is far left, about 12% far right, and the remaining 80% are in the middle and just wish those 20% would shut-up.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 23, 2020)

Zipper730 said:


> GrauGeist
> 
> 
> Basically, from what I remember about 8% of the population is far left, about 12% far right, and the remaining 80% are in the middle and *just wish those 20% would shut-up.[/b*


*





*

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## Crimea_River (Dec 24, 2020)

Channel surfing last night and this description showed up on the Smithsonian Channel. You think they'd know better.

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## SaparotRob (Jun 13, 2021)

The FAA operated F4U‘s off carriers before the USN.

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## R Leonard (Jun 13, 2021)

Bwahaahaahaaaa

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## MIflyer (Jun 13, 2021)

pbehn said:


> The first Mustang Mk1 kill and loss occurred at Dieppe in August 1942.



And the pilot of the Mustang I making the kill appropriately enough was an American, and appropriately enough, he was from Hollywood, California.

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## SaparotRob (Jun 13, 2021)

Far Out! That's a great picture.


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## R Leonard (Jun 13, 2021)

Flying Officer Hollis Harry Hills (J-5803) No 414 Squadron RCAF. Later LT USNR (243201). Credited with an FW-190 while in RCAF service and with 4 A6M2 shot down and 1 A6M2 damaged in USN service while with VF-32 off USS Langley. Retired Commander USN. Actually he was born in Baxter, Iowa and as a child moved with his family to South Pasadena, CA.

See, I really do keep a list.

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## SaparotRob (Jul 11, 2021)

I just found out something else I knew was wrong. I just watched a "Dark Docs" video "How America Defeated Hitler's Tanks. The Battle of Arracourt" It seems that General Patton could have gotten to Berlin before the Russians if not for a deal worked out between the CCCP and President Eisenhower. (8 minute 40 second mark)

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