# In search of comprehensive data



## Demetrious (Mar 18, 2010)

(I don't know if this is the best board for this, so if you think it should be moved, please feel free.)

Ever since I started studying the comparative performance of aircraft in earnest, I've been routinely frustrated by the total lack of some of the most basic performance data in nearly any source you might care to name. Even the best-cited Wikipedia articles (which will include wing-loading, drag-ratio and zero lift drag coefficients, and if you're lucky, power/weight ratios already calculated for you,) you'll find glaring errors. For example, the F-4 Phantom page on Wikipedia (which is phenomenal compared to most of the aircraft entries,) gives the powerplant's thrust as 17,000 pounds, without noting that 17,000 pounds is for the _afterburner,_ and military power is only 11,000. And then- *most mind-numbingly frustrating-* there is absolutely no data on roll rates. Even on this very forum, the most I've ever seen in the way of roll rates is two charts from wwiiaircraftperformance.net (which are heavily relied upon,) so apparently this blackout is total.

And that's at _best._ A staggering number of those "PLANES OF THE WORLD + CRUCIAL STATS" books that friends and family have bought for the "airplane guy" in the clan will tell you this much, if you're lucky:

--Loaded weight

--Gross weight

--Range (combat radius? ferry? with a full weapons load? LOL I DUNNO)

--Who made the engine. 

AND THAT'S IT. 

Now, after three hours on the internet trying to find out what the MiG-21 (any variant's) roll rate is, and failing, I'm ready to drop some cash on this problem. I can understand if data beyond educated guesses is not to be had for the F-15, (it's classified, after all,) but the MiG-21? Get out. 

So I come to you fine folks to ask a simple question- what reference books are out there that would give me the absolute low-down on military aircraft, modern and archaic? I want to know _everything,_ how many tanks the fighter has and how many gallons in each (so I can guesstimate the likely combat weights, and such) data on roll rates, and the like. ("Roll rate" is a misnomer, I'm aware that it varies as much as "turn rate" does, so any book that gives me the aerodynamic data needed to roughly infer roll rates is fine.) In short, where can I find the reference texts the experts use?


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 18, 2010)

Demetrious said:


> where can I find the reference texts the experts use?



The aircraft flight manual


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## Demetrious (Mar 18, 2010)

FLYBOYJ said:


> The aircraft flight manual



I suppose you're right. I'm probably not going to find this data in any "compilation" or "big book of fighter planes."

Do you just have to hunt those down one-by-one, or is there a few good sites on the 'net to try first?


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 18, 2010)

Demetrious said:


> I suppose you're right. I'm probably not going to find this data in any "compilation" or "big book of fighter planes."
> 
> Do you just have to hunt those down one-by-one, or is there a few good sites on the 'net to try first?



For the most part you'd have to hunt down each manual. I've seen some folks put together top rate data from flight manuals and test reports but many time people who write these generic books don't know their @sses from their elbows.

Kurfurst has excellent info on the Bf.109 for a start.


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## krieghund (Mar 18, 2010)

WHICH JET FIGHTERS ARE YOU INTERESTED IN? I HAVE SOME DATA AS I HAVE ACCESS TO THE T.O. LIBRARY


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## beaupower32 (Mar 18, 2010)

krieghund said:


> WHICH JET FIGHTERS ARE YOU INTERESTED IN? I HAVE SOME DATA AS I HAVE ACCESS TO THE T.O. LIBRARY



Thou shalt not use all capital letters when typing........................

Depending on what T.O. Library you are talking about (Air Force, Navy, Marine, Etc....), it might not be a good idea to be offering manuals that you probably shouldnt be offering.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 18, 2010)

Especially out of an active TO Library. Your TODA will hunt you down!


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## beaupower32 (Mar 18, 2010)

Thats what I ment to say, A active T.O. Library. Thanks FlyboyJ, that one slipped my mind.


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## Demetrious (Mar 18, 2010)

FLYBOYJ said:


> I've seen some folks put together top rate data from flight manuals and test reports but many time people who write these generic books don't know their @sses from their elbows.



I figured as much. Meh!



> WHICH JET FIGHTERS ARE YOU INTERESTED IN? I HAVE SOME DATA AS I HAVE ACCESS TO THE T.O. LIBRARY



Oh, I'm not after anything that's still classified. I was just recently wondering about the F-4 versus the MiG-21, performance-wise. I wasn't surprised to see that the difference in power/weight was only slightly in the MiGs favor, but it'd be nice to know how they rolled and turned against each other (I don't think a dartlike plane like the MiG would turn well at all.)

To say nothing of F-86 vs. MiG-17, Hawker Hunter vs Banshee, etc, etc....


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## beaupower32 (Mar 19, 2010)

Your best bet is just to look online, (Google, EBay, Etc....) to find the manuals/info you need.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 19, 2010)

Demetrious said:


> To say nothing of F-86 vs. MiG-17, Hawker Hunter vs Banshee, etc, etc....



Older jet aircraft flight manuals and specific flight data is available. F-86...

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/Sabre/F-86/F86FMilThrustClimbPro.pdf

Flying the North American F-86/FJ-2


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## ppopsie (Mar 23, 2010)

Do the AFMs or Flight Handbooks conveniently list data such as roll rates at so and so loadings?


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