# History according to random people...



## GrauGeist (Mar 28, 2016)

I know this subject has come up in the past over various topics, but sometimes you have to just stop and say "what the...?"

This day and age, with social media and interactive news sites, there is always public input on everything from raising kittens to the space program. Often times, the comments are so far out there, it's entertaining, yet frightening.

I just got finished reading a "sponsored" page on facebook (typical clickbait for ad revenue) about "15 top secret Nazi projects" which was total crap...the comments however, were quite entertaining and needed to be shared!

The following is just a small portion of that:



> "*Bryce* and the nukes are actually correct they were trying to develop a few in the Atlantic ocean near Antarctica but the facility was destroyed by heavy bombers and fighter aircraft alike...but we as Americans developed the first working a Nuclear bomb and was successfully dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombs name was little man and fat boy but we got the idea from captured Nazi scientists that were at nuclear facilities like Albert Einstein he was a German scientist before the war went to America and was drafted to create the Manhattan Project that was the code name for the nuclear bombs...so please prove me that im wrong...i bet you cant"





> "*Matt* There is concrete evidence of Nazi attempts to create nuclear weapons and they were extremely close to doing it. Our own version was only slightly less volatile. Which is why before hitting Japan we had to finish assembling the warhead IN FLIGHT.
> 
> *Marc* Errr...no. That didn't happen. Enola Gay flew with nothing but a standard flight crew with special instructions. Thats it. Check your history, my friend.
> 
> ...





> "*John* The E-100 heavy tank was almost completed during the end of the war, 300mm of armor, and its chassis is the same in we see on the m1a2 Abrams
> 
> *Ronald* John It took 300,000 man hours just to produce one Tiger. Of course a lot of it was slave labor.
> Wonder how many hours it would to make one 100 ton pill box.
> ...





> "*Kip* the nazis did come up with jets by end of war i do believe and a lot of american pilots were stunned by their speed. and by the way germany never would have dropped an atomic bomb on america. russia for sure.
> 
> *Ruben* Don't forget about the Messerschmitt ME-262, the first jet fighter ever created, this is the jet that Kip Reilly is referring to...
> 
> ...

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 29, 2016)

Ignorance is bliss.

Our education system at its finest...

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## GrauGeist (Mar 29, 2016)

There was quite an international cross-section going on, including the one from the UK that stated that the "Nazis never had jets..."

But out of all of the comments, my absolute favorite, which was about the most factual of all, was this:
"*Luke* You people really have no idea what the f**k you are even talking about."

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## stona (Mar 29, 2016)

I bet they all found every word they wrote at some web site or other 
It's a downside to having a free internet, anyone can post whatever crap they want to, but in the end it's a price worth paying.
Cheers
Steve


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## Wayne Little (Mar 29, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> There was quite an international cross-section going on, including the one from the UK that stated that the "Nazis never had jets..."
> 
> But out of all of the comments, my absolute favorite, which was about the most factual of all, was this:
> "*Luke* You people really have no idea what the f**k you are even talking about."



That REALLY sums it up....just a little bit of actual common sense goes a long way...


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## Airframes (Mar 29, 2016)

They say a little knowledge is dangerous - in this instance, it's bl**dy lethal !!


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## rochie (Mar 29, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> There was quite an international cross-section going on, including the one from the UK that stated that the "Nazis never had jets..."
> 
> But out of all of the comments, my absolute favorite, which was about the most factual of all, was this:
> "*Luke* You people really have no idea what the f**k you are even talking about."


Never fear Dave, we have our fair share of F**kwitts over here !

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## GrauGeist (Mar 29, 2016)

lmao Karl!

It does seem that stupidity is one of the few human traits that transcends borders!


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## Airframes (Mar 29, 2016)

Yep - just look at The Houses of Parliament ................ oh dear, did I really say that !?!!

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## rochie (Mar 29, 2016)

Airframes said:


> Yep - just look at The Houses of Parliament ................ oh dear, did I really say that !?!!


You did !

Hope you had your tin foil hat on ?


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## Airframes (Mar 29, 2016)

No, I didn't, as I've heard a rumour (probably true) that Cameron will tax the use of tin foil for purposes other than roasting food.


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## GrauGeist (Mar 29, 2016)

Airframes said:


> Yep - just look at The Houses of Parliament ................ oh dear, did I really say that !?!!


You had to go there, didn't you? 

Truth be told, ALL politicians should be put in a room for a group photo.

_"Ok people, sit still, smile and wait for the flash..."_

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## vikingBerserker (Mar 29, 2016)

Well I certainly feel better about myself!


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## bobbysocks (Mar 29, 2016)

if its on the internet it HAS to me true....they wouldn't put false things on the internet silly. for all the smart technology we have...

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## Gnomey (Mar 29, 2016)

Luke basically sums it up in one sentence...


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## bobbysocks (Mar 29, 2016)

and these are the minds that will determine who goes into office and shapes the policies of nations....guess its time to dig up my survivalist books.....


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## Njaco (Mar 29, 2016)




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## Wayne Little (Mar 30, 2016)

There is one other BIG problem........the SOB's breed too...


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## fubar57 (Mar 31, 2016)

Did you at least get the chance to straighten them out Dave? I would really like a one on one with Bryce, get him to quote his sources......share his drugs.


Geo


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## Peter Gunn (Mar 31, 2016)

Truly frightening how deep and dark the depths of stupidity can go. *Face...meet palm..*


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## stona (Mar 31, 2016)

_"Persistent questioning and healthy inquisitiveness are the first requisite for acquiring learning of any kind."_
M.K.Ghandi.

Cheers

Steve


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## pbehn (Mar 31, 2016)

I had an Irish guy berating me for the bombing of Dresden AFTER Germany had surrendered.

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## stona (Mar 31, 2016)

pbehn said:


> I had an Irish guy berating me for the bombing of Dresden AFTER Germany had surrendered.



You should have berated him about the tens of thousands of allied soldiers, civilians, PoWs and concentration camp inmates who died AFTER the bombing of Dresden.
You could add in all the Germans still to die, deemed unworthy of the destiny chosen for them by the Nazi leadership and not worth saving.

Don't worry,_ not one_ of a group of thirty somethings could even give me the dates for WW2 to the nearest year. I'd already tried them, with no success, on Dunkirk/BoB (they were all British) and the dropping of the atomic bombs.

Go back further and things get worse.

Cheers

Steve


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## GrauGeist (Mar 31, 2016)

pbehn said:


> I had an Irish guy berating me for the bombing of Dresden AFTER Germany had surrendered.


Sadly, I am not at all surprised.

I don't understand how history has taken such a back seat in this day and age.

When I was in Junior High (7th - 8th grade) were were learning about the Roman Empire, the Greeks and Western Civilization as a whole.

I just had a recent "discussion" with a younger person who is currently attending UC Berkley (a VERY liberal university), who emotionally told me that the U.S. had no right to drop Atomic weapons on the Japanese, so they were of course justified in attacking Pearl Harbor for retaliation.

When I heard that, I was nearly speechless and asked them "perhaps you have the timeline backwards?" and they told me (almost shouting, actually) to learn real history.

Yeah, I'll be sure to do that...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 31, 2016)

pbehn said:


> I had an Irish guy berating me for the bombing of Dresden AFTER Germany had surrendered.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 31, 2016)

stona said:


> You should have berated him about the tens of thousands of allied soldiers, civilians, PoWs and concentration camp inmates who died AFTER the bombing of Dresden.
> You could add in all the Germans still to die, deemed unworthy of the destiny chosen for them by the Nazi leadership and not worth saving.
> 
> Don't worry,_ not one_ of a group of thirty somethings could even give me the dates for WW2 to the nearest year. I'd already tried them, with no success, on Dunkirk/BoB (they were all British) and the dropping of the atomic bombs.
> ...



Everyone here in the US (present company here in the forum excempt of course) thinks WW2 was only from 1941 to 1945.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 31, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> Sadly, I am not at all surprised.
> 
> I don't understand how history has taken such a back seat in this day and age.
> 
> ...



The education system here in the US has gone to shit. It is embarrassing. My wife is a Biology teacher at a college here. She is appalled at their level of education. She has to teach them basic things that used to be (and still are in other countties) tought in 9th grade.

But then again the sciences are becoming less and less important to thr US population it seems. Very sad if you ask me...


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## stona (Mar 31, 2016)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Everyone here in the US (present company here in the forum excempt of course) thinks WW2 was only from 1941 to 1945.



Well it did for them! We always say 1939-45, but even that is a eurocentric view. Someone living in Manchuria might think that was eight years too short 
Cheers
Steve

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## Peter Gunn (Apr 1, 2016)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The education system here in the US has gone to shit. It is embarrassing. My wife is a Biology teacher at a college here. She is appalled at their level of education. She has to teach them basic things that used to be (and still are in other countties) tought in 9th grade.
> 
> But then again the sciences are becoming less and less important to thr US population it seems. Very sad if you ask me...



AAAaaaannd THAT'S why my wife and I homeschool. Strangely they are far ahead of their counterparts in public school when it comes to oh...everything.


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## herman1rg (Apr 1, 2016)

These people walk amongst us, be vigilant.


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## Glider (Apr 1, 2016)

stona said:


> Well it did for them! We always say 1939-45, but even that is a eurocentric view. Someone living in Manchuria might think that was eight years too short
> Cheers
> Steve


Good point


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## at6 (Apr 2, 2016)

When I think of the truly heroic people we had to look up to 50+ years ago, I feel sad knowing that later generations have no idea who they were. I once wanted to be a history teacher but what passes for education now makes me want to puke. We were educated by real teachers instead of what now passes for educators. Berkley is where everything started turning into sh!t. If I had a kid wanting to go there, I would have to perform a post-partum abortion. At least there are people here with real intelligence instead of the morons spouting utter non-sense. It's good to have friends like all of you.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 2, 2016)

Airframes said:


> They say a little knowledge is dangerous - in this instance, it's bl**dy lethal !!



I know nothing....(with bad Spanish accent!)


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## GrauGeist (Apr 2, 2016)

Lucky13 said:


> I know nothing....(with bad Spanish accent!)


UH...are you sure you have the accent correct?

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## Lucky13 (Apr 2, 2016)




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## Lucky13 (Apr 2, 2016)



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## rochie (Apr 2, 2016)

I remember losing a pub quiz once.
Question was "what was the desert fox Rommel's first name ?"

Quiz master had Edwin as the answer and i couldnt convince him it was Erwin !

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## Airframes (Apr 2, 2016)

Had a very similar thing with a very well educated pub quiz master.
The question was "What do the French call the English Channel?".
Neither I, nor anyone else, could convince him that the answer was Le Manche (the sleeve), and not Pas de Calais !!!
That's the rough equivalent of saying that we (British) call Le Manche, Kent !!!


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## Lucky13 (Apr 2, 2016)

Airframes said:


> Had a very similar thing with a very well educated pub quiz master.
> The question was "What do the French call the English Channel?".
> Neither I, nor anyone else, could convince him that the answer was Le Manche (the sleeve), and not Pas de Calais !!!
> That's the rough equivalent of saying that we (British) call Le Manche, Kent !!!



.....as in Clark Kent??


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## Lucky13 (Apr 2, 2016)

Maybe someone will soon have it that the Battle of Britain, was fought over New Britain....


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## rochie (Apr 2, 2016)

Lucky13 said:


> Maybe someone will soon have it that the Battle of Britain, was fought over New Britain....


You mean it wsnt ?


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## stona (Apr 2, 2016)

Airframes said:


> The question was "What do the French call the English Channel?".
> Neither I, nor anyone else, could convince him that the answer was Le Manche (the sleeve),



*La *Manche. You were still correct though  

Cheers

Steve


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## Airframes (Apr 2, 2016)

You know, I thought when I typed that, it should have been 'La' and not 'Le' !
I can just about get by speaking French, although basic, and rather rusty these days but, not having actually formally learned the language, and rarely, if ever, writing it, I can easily come unstuck !
Mind you, I'm not much better with English, German, or Danish - Gibberish is fluent though !!!!

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## GrauGeist (Apr 2, 2016)

Terry, I took French when I was in school, and sadly, I recall very little of it.

I did learn Spanish outside of the classroom simply by growing up in Southern California and found that it came in really handy when I was in Italy a few years back. I also discovered that Italians loved to correct my mispronunciations when I was switching between English and Italian BUT they never corrected my Spanish when I used that!

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## Lucky13 (Apr 2, 2016)

Airframes said:


> You know, I thought when I typed that, it should have been 'La' and not 'Le' !
> I can just about get by speaking French, although basic, and rather rusty these days but, not having actually formally learned the language, and rarely, if ever, writing it, I can easily come unstuck !
> Mind you, I'm not much better with English, German, or Danish - Gibberish is fluent though !!!!



Very true old boy, you're fluent in Gibberish, Rubbish, Bollocks, Mince and Swettish....


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## GrauGeist (Apr 2, 2016)

fubar57 said:


> View attachment 340048
> 
> 
> Did you at least get the chance to straighten them out Dave? I would really like a one on one with Bryce, get him to quote his sources......share his drugs.
> ...


Nope, Geo...I was a JAFO for that dog and pony show.

Besides, this day and age, posting comments on any form of social media is a futile effort - I would have far better luck teaching a brick to fetch me a beer from the fridge...

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## Airframes (Apr 2, 2016)

You mean you have bricks over there that can _hear _you ?!!


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## Lucky13 (Apr 2, 2016)

Airframes said:


> You mean you have bricks over there that can _hear _you ?!!



If so, they probably speak bric-à-brac....


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## Airframes (Apr 2, 2016)

Oh dear, Jan's been at the Fruit Gums again ......................


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## GrauGeist (Apr 2, 2016)

Airframes said:


> You mean you have bricks over there that can _hear _you ?!!


I have a far better chance of finding a brick that's capable of listening than I would getting a point across in a social media comments section!


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## Airframes (Apr 2, 2016)

Very true !


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## pbehn (Apr 3, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> Sadly, I am not at all surprised.
> 
> I don't understand how history has taken such a back seat in this day and age.


It was in a bar in Hamm Germany, he was doing what many people do, using a snippet of history to ride his own hobby horse. The guy was an Irish Catholic from Dublin using misinformation about Dresden to back up his anti British line.


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## T Bolt (Apr 3, 2016)

Back when my son was in fifth grade he got a detention for arguing with the teacher of his history class. She insisted that Germany was not involved in the Second World War.


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## Airframes (Apr 3, 2016)

WHAT !?!!!!


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## T Bolt (Apr 3, 2016)

That's pretty much what I said although using more inappropriate language. My wife had to hold me back from going and having a little talk with that teacher.


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## GrauGeist (Apr 3, 2016)

T Bolt said:


> Back when my son was in fifth grade he got a detention for arguing with the teacher of his history class. She insisted that Germany was not involved in the Second World War.


I am not surprised at all...

Several years ago, my friend called me up on the phone and asked: "tell me, what did the flag of the Confederacy look like?" and I laughed and told him he should know better. He was serious, though and asked me what the National flag looked like (not the better known Battle standard), as he was preparing a scathing letter to his son's teacher complete with visuals. 

I told him that the 1st National Flag was two red horizontal bars divided by an equal sized white bar, a blue field to the upper right with thirteen stars in a circle. Being really curious about the whole thing, I had to ask why he was going to all this trouble. His reply? 

_"Because that god d*****d teacher insists the British Union Jack is the f*****g Confederate Flag, that's why!!"_

I honestly had no words...


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## mikewint (Apr 3, 2016)

Oh my-o-my there goes that pesky His-tory agin!!! Time for a Southerner to weigh in. The FIRST flag of the Confedercy during the War of Northern Aggression from 4 Mar 1861 - 21 Mar 1861 was the SEVEN star "Stars and Bars" flag.
The seven stars represent the original Confederate States; South Carolina (December 20, 1860), Mississippi(January 9, 1861), Florida (January 10,1861), Alabama (January 11, 1861), Georgia (January 19, 1861), Louisiana (January 26, 1861), and Texas (February 1, 1861). A nine star version followed, then a 11 star, and finally a 13 star version after the Confederacy claimed Missouri and Kentucky.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 3, 2016)

Nothern Aggression...

Sorry, I always laugh at that.

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## GrauGeist (Apr 3, 2016)

And even by the longest stretch of the imagination, there were no flags of the Confederacy that even come close to the British flag...


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## mikewint (Apr 3, 2016)

Time for this Southern boy to step in agin...
*The Beginning *

The first battle of the WoNA was the battle of Bunker Hill. Disputed accounts that the North was actually shooting at redcoats is a lie. They were not redcoats, they were red*necks*, a completely different terminology. Undoubtedly these people areRedsof another sort.

*The Middle *

The next major battle of the WoNA was probably the battle of Manassas. Now, some people have disputed that the battle was actually the Battle of Bull Run, or some other Northernpropaganda. The battle was that of Manassas, and just because our name has 'ass' in it doesn't make it bullcrap. Needless to say us Southerners won again, because of our commanders, fried chicken, and fearsome catfish stew.

Then we went on to the battle of the Bulge. This was the battle that took place inGermany. Now, undoubtedly, some of you Northerners are questioning this. That is more Northern bullshit. The Battle of the Bulge was a part of the WoNA. This battle was a stalemate because Germany kept using rocket planes and nuclear powered robots to interfere in the battle.

Everyone is equal in the United States now, and forever will be. Everyone is created equal and shall be treated the same, except women and blacks. And muslims. Guldurn muslims. We didn't have any of them before Lincoln showed up.

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## Lucky13 (Apr 4, 2016)

mikewint said:


> ....during the War of Northern Aggression



_That _expression I've never heard before!!
It's been said before, you learn a lot on this forum!


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## Airframes (Apr 4, 2016)

And I always thought that 'Northern Aggression' was when Newcastle Utd met Sunderland in a 'friendly' ..................


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## Lucky13 (Apr 4, 2016)

....or when my ancestors stirred things up a wee bit....


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## GrauGeist (Apr 4, 2016)

Lucky13 said:


> _That _expression I've never heard before!!
> It's been said before, you learn a lot on this forum!


With the current heated politics here in the U.S. with the presidential candidates mud-slinging on each other, people seem appalled and claim this sets a precedent...but hardly.

Along the lines of "Northern Aggression" would be the politics of the mid-19th century, where the Senators would actually get into fist fights on the Senate floor over heated debates and it reached a peak in the late 1850's over the imbalanced tariffs imposed on the Southern states by the Northern majority in the house. There was an imbalance of representation since the Northern states had a majority and heated debates over issues would often times degrade into ugly brawls.

This is one of the contributing factors that led to the succession of the Southern states...something that is HARDLY touched on in current school history lessons. This very same problem of a balanced representation is going on in California at the moment, as the denser population areas, particularly the Southern portion, have a higher number of seats in the State Senate than the rural and Northern areas...leading to a movement to divide the state into two halves. A stupid idea, really....but a clear and classic example of how the American Civil War started.


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## stona (Apr 4, 2016)

A few years ago I worked a lot in Italy and obviously with Italians, almost all from the northern cities. Evey single one of them wanted the north (Padania) to secede from the rest of Italy. When I asked about Rome I generally got a two word reply along the lines of 'f**k Rome'. What they said about Naples, Bari etc can't even be repeated, even with asterisks, here 
Cheers
Steve

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## mikewint (Apr 4, 2016)

Twas the same in Illinois where the densely populated Cook county and its collar counties have more people than the rest of the state combined. Therefore whatever Chicago wanted it got with the sparsely populated southern 2/3 of the state footing the bill.
Illinois now holds the dubious record for the longest budgetary foot-dragging in recent memory, according the National Conference of State Legislatures. (Until this week, Pennsylvania had tied with Kentucky, which didn't get around to approving its fiscal 2003 budget until late March of that year.)
Despite their spectacular fiscal fail, lawmakers in the Land of Lincoln are showing little sign of progress in breaking the deadlock, now dragging on nine months past the deadline. Since then, Republican Gov. Bruce Rauner has been holding out for a package of business incentives and changes in collective bargaining laws that a Democratic-controlled legislature wants no part of.
The impasse has already forced cuts in education and social services and produced a steadily rising stack of nearly $6.5 billion in unpaid bills. The state's controller, Leslie Munger, has estimated the backlog could top $10 billion by the time the current fiscal year ends in July. That money that will have to be made up in next year's budget, which is technically due July 1.
"The bottom line is the state cannot go bankrupt and we cannot print money," Munger told reporters last month. "Taxpayers are going to have to pay this bill."


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 4, 2016)

Ok everyone. ALL of you know the rules about political discussion...


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## Lucky13 (Apr 4, 2016)

Yip....you'd all been better of as a part of the Empire!


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## GrauGeist (Apr 4, 2016)

Lucky13 said:


> Yip....you'd all been better of as a part of the Empire!


Who's?
Darth Vader's, the Cyclon's - be more specific...


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## Gnomey (Apr 4, 2016)

The British of course ...

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## Lucky13 (Apr 4, 2016)

Gnomey said:


> The British of course ...



What he said....


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## mikewint (Apr 4, 2016)

*Es tut mir leid*. I didn't think that that was political. It's what is going on in Illinois. Fortunately I be in Arkansas now


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## GrauGeist (Apr 4, 2016)

Gnomey said:


> The British of course ...


But why the British?

Why not the Sassinian empire or Mughal empire?


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## Lucky13 (Apr 5, 2016)

Because we have the bacon!!


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## Wayne Little (Apr 5, 2016)

Well that nails it then....


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## GrauGeist (Apr 5, 2016)

Lucky13 said:


> Because we have the bacon!!


Release the Kraken!!

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## Lucky13 (Apr 5, 2016)

Yum yum....


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## vikingBerserker (Apr 5, 2016)

(Spiced Rum always sounds better to me than it tastes.)

We can't become a part of the British Empire, they put "U's" in every word and we got rid of all the extra ones back in the late 1700;s.

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## herman1rg (Apr 5, 2016)

vikingBerserker said:


> (Spiced Rum always sounds better to me than it tastes.)
> 
> We can't become a part of the British Empire, they put "U's" in every word and we got rid of all the extra ones back in the late 1700;s.



Well you always need colour and flavour to honour, harbour, neighbourly labours, and behaviour, with humour, rumour and splendour


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## at6 (Apr 5, 2016)

Lucky13 said:


> Because we have the bacon!!


Uh, I thought that was the Canadians.


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## mikewint (Apr 6, 2016)

Yup, CANADIAN Bacon

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## Wayne Little (Apr 6, 2016)




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## vikingBerserker (Apr 6, 2016)

herman1rg said:


> Well you always need colour and flavour to honour, harbour, neighbourly labours, and behaviour, with humour, rumour and splendour



My eyes, MY EYES!!!!!


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## Old Wizard (Apr 6, 2016)

This Canuck uses both spellings even though my spell checker objects.


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## Crimea_River (Apr 6, 2016)

Yeah, eh?


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## GrauGeist (Apr 7, 2016)

Hey, I know some phrases in Canadian, like: "Take off, eh?" and "Beauty, eh?"

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## stona (Apr 7, 2016)

We've got *the *real bacon in these islands, both British and Irish bacon comes from the back of the pig where bacon is supposed to come from. It is also best smoked in my humble opinion.
It doesn't come from the belly like most US bacon nor the loin like that Canadian ham.  I have had 'proper' bacon in Canada, maybe someone imports it!
Cheers
Steve


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## mikewint (Apr 7, 2016)

I say:




AND surely there is:




AND I WONDER:


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## vikingBerserker (Apr 7, 2016)

Well I am being nice to our Northern brethren. If Trump wins I need help scaling the wall they are going to build.

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## Lucky13 (Apr 7, 2016)

Will there a be a wall around Europe, if c*nt....sorry, if Trump wins?


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## mikewint (Apr 7, 2016)

Well, on my honour you will have to get used to the new flags colour and keep your valour. Another big change is that Zorro now carves a “ZED” with his blade. Then there is the Tuque you’ll have to wear and it will be tough to recognise yourself wearing that touque. If you’re in a restaurant always remove your tuque and never ask for the cheque. You won’t be getting money. However you can pay the bill with your loonies and toonies. Don’t forget to ask: "Please pass me a serviette. I've spilled poutine on the chesterfield."

Be polite, remember to nod your head and be polite to US colleagues, but once they're out of earshot you can say things like "could that guy be any more of a Yank?"

End every 4th or 5th sentence with the very fast question "eh?”, as in "That sounds like a good plan, eh?"

Drop out "the" in certain key phrases like "the accident victim was sent to hospital" versus "to the hospital". You won't really have any idea where you should drop out the "the", so just do it randomly


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## Gnomey (Apr 7, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> But why the British?
> 
> Why not the Sassinian empire or Mughal empire?



Tea, gin, whisky and bacon!


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## Crimea_River (Apr 7, 2016)

vikingBerserker said:


> Well I am being nice to our Northern brethren. If Trump wins I need help scaling the wall they are going to build.



There ain't going to be a wall, eh? Trump will make us pay for it and we won't be able to afford it after our new govermint bails out Bombardier (again).


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## GrauGeist (Apr 7, 2016)

Crimea_River said:


> ...we won't be able to afford it after our new govermint bails out Bombardier (again).


Mybe if you sold more Maple syrup to Europe?


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## at6 (Apr 7, 2016)

If it's from a gay pig, it's California bacon.


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## Crimea_River (Apr 7, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> Mybe if you sold more Maple syrup to Europe?



No way! Its a national treasure!

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## GrauGeist (Apr 8, 2016)

Crimea_River said:


> No way! Its a national treasure!


Just imagine if Europe discovered the joys of true Maple Syrup, they would flock to the stores to clear the shelves of the precious liquid gold, Canada's economy would soar and people in Europe would suddenly realize that Nutella is actually crap and let it die a quiet death.

It's a win-win all the way around!


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## Lucky13 (Apr 8, 2016)

Gnomey said:


> Tea, gin, whisky and bacon!


....Spitfire, Lancaster, Mosquito, the proper pub, BSA, Triumph, Norton, AJS, Vincent....

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## mikewint (Apr 8, 2016)

Andy, I do like the fact that you guys have a "Prime Minister" instead of a President. Your current one, I think is Stephen Harper who is basically a more polite version of George Bush with nicer hair. He probably won't last long - and best of all you have a system where you can bring down governments you don't like. 
Now MAPLE SYRUP is another question.
Americans associate Vermont with maple syrup, but Quebec is its real center. The province’s trees produce more than 70 percent of the world’s supply and fill the majority of the United States’ needs. The Federation of Quebec Maple Syrup Producers, is effectively a cartel, approved by the provincial government and backed by the law. In 1990, the federation became the only wholesale seller of the province’s production, and in 2004, it gained the power to decide who gets to make maple syrup and how much. When the federation suspects farmers are producing and selling outside the system, it posts guards on their properties. It seeks fines from producers and buyers who do not follow the rule. In the most extreme situations, it seizes production.
For weeks, security guards, hired by the Federation of Quebec Maple Syrup Producers, kept watch over Mr. Hodge’s farm. Then one day, the federation seized 20,400 pounds of maple syrup, his entire annual production, worth about 60,000 Canadian dollars, or nearly $46,000. The incident was part of the escalating battle with farmers like Mr. Hodge who break the law by not participating in the federation’s tightly controlled production and sales system.
Then in 2012, $18 million of maple syrup was stolen from the *Global Strategic Reserve*, a warehouse where the federation stockpiles the sweetener. Police arrested more than two dozen people in the heist, the first of whom is expected to go on trial in November.
Stacked in barrels nine high, the reserve currently holds about 60 million pounds of maple syrup.
Prices are set by the federation, in negotiation with a buyers’ group. The federation holds most of the power, given that it controls a majority of the world’s production.
No violation, it seems, is too little to escape its notice. Inspectors regularly patrol corner stores and small supermarkets. They want to see if producers who are allowed to sell only at their farms have modestly expanded their retail presence.
Fines, which are levied through a weight-based formula, have approached $1 million.
Mr. Hodge now owes about 115,000 Canadian dollars after the federation seized some of his provincial agricultural payments. He has run up about an additional 20,000 Canadian dollars in legal bills.
The federation also charges the producers for the round-the-clock guards. Mr. Hodge estimated that will add another 40,000 Canadian dollars.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 8, 2016)

....not a kingdom, but still have a _Royal _Air Force....


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## T Bolt (Apr 8, 2016)

Damn, sounds like the DeBeers diamond cartel


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## mikewint (Apr 8, 2016)

Yup, same principle


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## Wayne Little (Apr 9, 2016)




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## Crimea_River (Apr 9, 2016)

Mike, where have you been? Harper got his a$$ kicked badly last October and we have a new Liberal majority led by a 44 year old mannequin with nicer hair than Harper's.

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## Graeme (Apr 10, 2016)

Any of you guys watch _Better call Saul_?

Saw a recent episode where Jimmy tries to get on old guy off a public masturbation charge by making him look like a war hero. They plunk him in a wheelchair in front of Fifi surrounded by military personnel and start taking photos. Then an argument ensues as to who the B-29 fought against. Jimmy says the Nazis, the old guy says the Japs.

In the end Jimmy says "let's just say you fought the axis powers!"


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## at6 (Apr 10, 2016)

Graeme said:


> Any of you guys watch _Better call Saul_?
> 
> Saw a recent episode where Jimmy tries to get on old guy off a public masturbation charge by making him look like a war hero. They plunk him in a wheelchair in front of Fifi surrounded by military personnel and start taking photos. Then an argument ensues as to who the B-29 fought against. Jimmy says the Nazis, the old guy says the Japs.
> 
> ...


Did they have any "hard" evidence?

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## Lucky13 (Apr 10, 2016)

The only hard stuff they found, was the _hard _liquor in Terry's locker....

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## mikewint (Apr 10, 2016)

And we know WHY!

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## Wayne Little (Apr 11, 2016)

wiped out alright..or is that crashed and burned...

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## Graeme (Apr 13, 2016)

at6 said:


> Did they have any "hard" evidence?



Nothing that would stand up in court.

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## Airframes (Apr 13, 2016)

Bit of a limp defence then .............


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## Wayne Little (Apr 14, 2016)




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## mikewint (Apr 14, 2016)

Mayhap your lightsaber just needs new batteries

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## Bucksnort101 (Apr 14, 2016)

I'm starting to regret opening this thread!


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## at6 (Apr 14, 2016)

Bucksnort101 said:


> I'm starting to regret opening this thread!


Why? You know how we like to have fun with subjects.


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## GrauGeist (Apr 14, 2016)

Bucksnort101 said:


> I'm starting to regret opening this thread!


Yeah, it's drifted a little bit off the track, hasn't it? 

I'll dig up some more "interesting" history revelations from people when I get on the computer later on, unless anyone else has some gems to contribute.


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## Wayne Little (Apr 15, 2016)

What was the question...?


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## vikingBerserker (Apr 15, 2016)

The age old question of course..............

Color pics For a Model I'm Building

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## mikewint (Apr 15, 2016)

Wana start with some history that we all know is TRUE!
1. Thanksgiving wasn’t originally intended to be a holiday celebrating multi-cultural togetherness and the ritual observance of overconsumption. The original proposal was to give thanks…to the Constitution. George Washington’s original proclamation in 1789 asked for a day of “prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.”
2. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.’s real first and middle name weren’t Martin Luther. His first name, like his father’s, was Michael. The Michael Kings changed their chosen names after a trip to Nazi Germany, although both of them lived and died under the legal name of Michael King. MLK Jr. almost wasn’t even a doctor. Years after his death, Boston University concluded that King plagiarized much of his doctoral dissertation but felt that “no thought should be given to the revocation of Dr. King’s doctoral degree” because of his passing. There was just no point anymore to taking the doctor title way.
3. When Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on the bus, it wasn’t her first altercation with that bus driver. Parks had been ejected by the same driver 12 years earlier for refusing to board in the back of the bus after she had already paid up front.
4. Although Jamestown is often credited as the first British colony, it was only the first as far as the British were concerned. The Spanish beat them by a half century, setting up St. Augustine in Florida in 1565. Neither camp even counted as the first overseas visitors to settle in North America. The Vikings settled in Newfoundland (hence the name) around the year 1001 AD. Africans had been making boat trips to the “New World” prior to Columbus’ voyage. Native Americans also landed in the Netherlands (then Holland) around 60 BC, beating the Vikings by a millennium. Take that Jan!!
4.5. While we’re on the subject of Jan. Vikings never wore horned helmets. That idea like came out of the myth-making of the 16th and 17th century Europeans, who viewed the Vikings as warrior crusaders with wings and horns on their heads.
5. We think of dirty politicking as a relatively new trend, but our negative campaign ads can’t beat the ones of the past. An attack ad on FDR claimed, “If he became convinced tomorrow that coming out for cannibalism would get him the votes he so sorely needs, he would begin fattening a missionary in the White backyard come Wednesday.” When fighting Lincoln, opponents went after his looks: “We know Old Abe does not look very handsome, but if all the ugly men in the US vote for him, he will surely be elected.” But my favorite, ever, was written about Grover Cleveland. It goes, “We do not believe the American people will knowingly elect to the Presidency a coarse debauchee who would bring his harlots with him to Washington.”
6. Woodrow Wilson was a huge fan of the movie Birth of a Nation, as he went to school with Thomas Dixon, who wrote the play the movie is based on. When the notoriously racist film debuted, Wilson is reported to have said, “It is like writing history with lightning. And my only regret is that it is all so terribly true.” Although many defenders of Wilson’s racist tendencies have tried to say the quote was misattributed and Dixon made up the quote to endorse the film, Wilson held a private screening of it at the White House, making it the first film ever shown there. Scholars claim that Wilson himself loved “darky” jokes and felt that segregation was a “rational, scientific policy,” placing many noted segregationists in his cabinet.
7. Old-school Coca-Cola put cocaine in their drinks, but did you know Bayer coined “heroin” as a thing and produced opium products, encouraging you to use these “medical breakthroughs” on children? They also invented mustard gas. It was a simpler time. You might wonder then, with the backing of corporate America behind drugs, what got us anti-drug legislation. Racism. In 1878, San Francisco saw the first anti-drug laws pass as a way to stop people from frequenting opium dens. City officials claimed, “Many women and young girls, as well as young men of respectable family, were being induced to visit the Chinese opium-smoking dens, where they were ruined morally and otherwise.” Watch the movie: Reefer Madness and this logic will make much more sense to you contextually.
8. Most remember Helen Keller as the second lead in The Miracle Worker. However, Helen Keller had a second career: as a socialist activist and organizer. Keller advocated for rights of the differently-abled, women’s suffrage, birth control, and was a noted pacifist. The radical thinker was also an opponent of Woodrow Wilson (who was against universal suffrage) and supported Socialist candidate Eugene V. Debs in his presidential runs. Because of her impairments, the media universally discredited her organizing work. A Brooklyn publication wrote that Keller’s socialist “mistakes sprung out of the manifest limitations of her development.”
9. Napoleon was a little guy, right. Not so, Napoleon wasn’t short — at least not by the standards of his day. M. Bonaparte stood 1.58 meters tall (or a little over five feet), well within the average of the compatriots of his era. Instead of suffering from a lack of height, Napoleon reportedly was stricken with far worse: hemorrhoids. Some scholars even suggest that a terrible flair up of butt pain cost Napoleon the Battle of Waterloo.
10. Disney and elementary school history lied to us about that whole Pocahontas thing. In reality she was twelve when Smith and his compatriots first embarked on their whirlwind New World adventure. Meaning there was no tasteful, PG romance with John Smith, she probably didn’t paint any of the colors of his wind and she didn’t save his life. She did, however, run away to Europe with John Rolfe, but the romance there was also dubious. The devout Rolfe reportedly fretted over “marrying a heathen” and their marriage was as much about sustaining peace in the colony as it was his affection for her. Pocahontas’ thoughts on the arrangement are unknown; although she was often treated with respect and admiration in London, she was just as often a curiosity and an object of derision. Many referred to her as “The Virginian Woman.” She died in 1617 while attempting to come back to the New World with Rolfe.
11. Edison was a brilliant man who help invent many things (like the phonograph, the mimeograph, the carbon microphone and moving pictures) but the light bulb is technically not his to claim. Edison developed the technology concurrently with Joseph Swan, a Briton who worked independently of Edison, although each knew the other was developing the technology. Although Edison is credited with inventing it, Swan holds the authorship for the bulb.
12. Einstein was a poor student and bad at math. “Einstein was a terrible student,” your parents reminded you, “and look at everything he achieved!” Unfortunately, that’s not true. Einstein was a highly gifted and accomplished student. We misinterpret Einstein receiving 4s in school as a sign of poor performance (akin to a “D”) but those were actually high marks of the era. Einstein not only aced math but his parents bought advanced textbooks for him, as he often complained that formal education was “holding him back.”
13. Vincent Van Gogh cut off his ear to win the heart of a woman. Nope, that’s not the case. A later story posited that Van Gogh lobbed it off after a particularly nasty fight with his friend, the painter Gauguin, and then handed it off to a prostitute in a brothel before returning home that evening to catch some shut eye (normal day for Van Gogh). But a recent theory claims a different (and more plausible) reason. Gauguin, a skilled swordfighter, likely cut off van Gogh’s ear-lobe either in self-defense or anger as the two of them argued. Had the truth come out Gauguin who have been arrested and prosecuted. I like this better, only because it makes van Gogh seem less crazy. After all the poor guy eventually shot himself in the chest and slowly died, penniless and believing himself to be forgotten.
14. Witches were “burned at the stake” during the Salem Witch Trials. I guess because “burning witches” has a nice ring to it (makes me a little hungry for carnitas). But anyway, nobody actually got burned. During the notorious witch hunt, nineteen accused practitioners of the dark arts were hung and one defendant was crushed to death with stones.
15. Abraham Lincoln might have been our first gay president possibly because of those much ballyhooed pillow talks with Joshua Speed, who Lincoln shared a bed with for many years. But unfortunately, such was a common practice of the era and doesn’t necessarily prove hanky-panky. However, we did have a queen in the White House elsewhere: one Ms. James Buchanan, our only bachelor president. Buchanan’s sexuality was much whispered about on the hill, as was his closeness with William Rufus King. Andrew Jackson gave the two of them the nickname of “Miss Nancy and Aunt Fancy” and others called King “Mrs. James Buchanan.” A common euphemism for their relationship was to label them “Siamese Twins,” the sotto voce name for same-gender couples of the era.
16. Our first bisexual or lesbian first lady: Eleanor. FDR was a well-documented philanderer (even Hyde Park on Hudson, the recent biopic on him, isn’t shy about it) and his marriage to Eleanor Roosevelt may have been a marriage of convenience. Mrs. Roosevelt’s letters to her longtime best friend, Lorena Hickok, indicate a relationship that went beyond traditional female bonding. Their correspondences were shockingly intimate; Roosevelt often wrote lines like, “Never are you out of my heart” and “I wish I could lie down beside you tonight & take you in my arms.” Hickok and Roosevelt’s family burned the letters after Eleanor’s death, but Mrs. Roosevelt’s close friend Gore Vidal (himself bisexual) long affirmed the letters’ truth until his death in 2012.
17. The Civil War (America’s that is). Although we’re told the North and South fought over the issue of slavery, the reasons are also far more mundane. The rebel South was seen as an insurrectionary state and a potential competing power that needed to be stopped. In truth, many Northerners fighting didn’t give a damn about slavery and the Southerners enlisted were too poor to actually afford slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation was, in part, a way to convince any blacks who might be fighting for the South to join the other team. Lincoln himself once commented, “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.”(which is exactly what the Proclamation actually did as it exempted northern slaves) By “freeing” the slaves, Lincoln hoped to cut off the South’s resources and preserve the union.
18. Also, World War II is tricky, from a moral standpoint. We like to believe that in 1940s, Americans were these armed crusaders fighting for the rights of all, but the Depression also led to a rise of anti-Semitism in the U.S., just like in Europe. Disney cartoons from the era are fraught with anti-Semitic caricatures, and right-wing leaders accused FDR of allowing his administration to be run by Jews. Henry Ford even printed the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion,” a notorious anti-Semitic screed detailing a Jewish plan for world domination, in his corporate newsletter. Polls in 1938 showed that around 60% of Americans at the time deemed Jews “greedy and dishonest,” and by 1945, Americans believed Jews had “too much power” in the United States.
19. There’s more. The revered Rockerfeller Foundation funded many of the German programs for eugenics, like the one that employed Josef Mengele before he found himself at Auschwitz. Many in the United States supported the forced sterilization of the differently-abled, mentally ill and criminals and anyone they deemed sterilizable. These folks included being “depressed,” “deviant” or “sexually wayward,” which often included homosexuals. (Remember: Homosexuality was classified as a disease until 1973.) Indiana passed the first forced Sterilization Bill in 1907 — followed closely by California, then the forced sterilization capital of America. The Oregon Board of Social Protection (originally the “Oregon Board of Eugenics”) performed the last ever forced sterilization in the U.S. in 1981.
20. The Korean War never actually ended. The U.S. and North Korea agreed to a cease-fire on July 27, 1953 until the two sides could reach a “final peaceful settlement.” This settlement never happened and an actual peace treaty never signed. As you can surmise, we’re fighting many of the same battles today.


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## GrauGeist (Apr 15, 2016)

In regards to the Viking helmets, they were most often simple iron or leather helmets, if the Vikings wore them at all.

The "romantic" notion of horned or winged helmets is most likely borrowed in later years from the Germanic tribes centuries earlier, who did wear ornamated helmets (most often for celebrations or special occasions) and are well documented in Roman accounts.


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## at6 (Apr 15, 2016)

Well put Mike. Much of what you've written, I was already aware of and much of it is new to me.


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## Wayne Little (Apr 16, 2016)

Real info is a good thing....cheers Mike.


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## GrauGeist (Apr 19, 2016)

Well...here we go again! 

I came across more "history" in the comments section of an article about "Secret Nazi Weapons".

Amazing stuff, really...



> *Oscar* Lol you people are stupid not the page but the people who comment on this s**t. No lie the Nazi's could of won WW2. I have a lot of reasons why.
> 1. They were the first to create Nuclear Bombs but they were scared of risking it.
> 2. Their scientists and generals were highly smart than anyone else.
> 3. They were the first to create the plane without the rotter or something i forgot whats it called tho.
> ...



I learned a great deal from this post...who knew Hydrogen Peroxide was such a dangerous fuel. And Brigadier General Fueher Von Braun, what an awesome title (rank?) - is that like a fire general or something? 


> *Larry* Our rocket program and head of nada were all most all Nazi AS officers using slave labor these men were War criminal a and should have been tried the goverment covered it up. Don't think for one minute that this was a honorable thing the Russians wanted these men too but would have killed them afterwards NASA was started with the help nazi S.S brigden fueher Von Braun. They had lots of blood on there hands but we took them had set them up and they led long successful lives making big dollars. They were full tilt bogie Nazi's the worse kind S.S death head lots of blood on there hands. Seems were big with double standards. Don't hate its the truth look it up. It happen the hydrogen peroxide was a very unstable fuel killing lots of slave laboers . would not risk a Germans life on fueling those v1 paluse engine buzz bombs or there top of the line v2



This person needs to stop watching those vampire shows on TV...


> *Michael* They also invented Methamphetamine that their soldiers used during the Blitzkriegs. Of course, the downside is addiction and halucinations under prolonged use and sleep deprivation. There is the story of the German Regiment that was so tweaked out on meth that they had a firefight all night with NOBODY. The Russians walked right in the next day because the Germans were completely out of ammunition.
> * Steven* The Russians mad a chemical similar to meth but used Nazi soldiers to experiment on kept them awake so long the ripped their own organs out
> * Scott* That's why from then on they only played piano
> * Mitchell* Steven Hahaha stop reading stories from Creepypasta and believing them..
> *Gallagher* Germans were so poorly trained in the first place no one would know who was on meth or who belonged in high school



As for the rest of these...I'm really not sure what to think...


> *Daniel* S**t, if they stopped wasting time with prototype bulls**t like the flying saucer and the giant ass tank with massive wheels, and concentrated on their nuclear program, the entire world would be run by the Nazis right now. There's only a few things that really turned the tables in our favor during the war, and Nazi scientists defecting and helping us with our nuclear program is definitely one of the major ones. That and US supply trucks that we gave to Russia.





> *Patrick* The only weapon they made that Hitler decided not to use that would have won the war was the STG-44. The first assault rifle. The one the Russians based the AK-47 on the Nazis developed in 1942 and didn't use it on the front lines. It would have won the war on both fronts.





> *Steven* Oh hitter didn't die in that bunker he left before the Russians came in they found the u boat testimony and after operation paper clip he worked for the us notice the revival of Nazi reform in America today


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## at6 (Apr 19, 2016)

Must have gotten their information from Wikipedia.


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## Wayne Little (Apr 19, 2016)

Say what.....


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## stona (Apr 19, 2016)

Does nobody else find this sort of thing disconcerting? The most worrying for me is that some of it is extrapolation and half truths based on real facts. This is classic conspiracy theorist practice too. The rest of it is just complete nonsense. The complete nonsense doesn't worry me so much.
Cheers
Steve


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## Shinpachi (Apr 19, 2016)

I won't join FB for the time being 
Thanks for sharing, Dave


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## Airframes (Apr 19, 2016)

It's rather sad that, people who can't even write properly, or spell, or put a logical sentence together, can actually write and read this utter nonsense - and believe it !!
Again, it's a case of a little knowledge can be dangerous !


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## stona (Apr 19, 2016)

Airframes said:


> It's rather sad that, people who can't even write properly, or spell, or put a logical sentence together, can actually write and read this utter nonsense - and believe it !!
> Again, it's a case of a little knowledge can be dangerous !



Quite so.

Less seriously, I didn't even know that someone called "hitter" was in the bunker, nor that said person escaped and later worked for the United States government. Nobody called "hitter" appears in any documents or records of interrogation relating to those in the bunker, but it was a confused and fluid situation so he (or she) might have been there 

I do know that a chap called Hitler was in the bunker, died there and was at least partially incinerated in a bomb crater. I also have a lot of evidence to support this 

Cheers

Steve


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## Airframes (Apr 19, 2016)

Absolutely.
And I didn't know that von Braun had an as yet unknown rank - brigden fueher (sic) - and that he was in the SS.
I'm quite doubtful that a single type of small arms weapon (the Stg 44) which _did_ go into production and service, would have won the war.
But of course I'm not privy to the information the author of this statement must obviously posses. Perhaps his information would reveal that it could fire nuclear-tipped rounds, a single one of which could destroy a city ?
Oh dear! If one of these semi-literate 'Historians' picks up on that last sentence, it might become fact, and go viral !!!


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## stona (Apr 19, 2016)

Well since von Braun applied for membership of the NSDAP in 1937 but later modified his story to claim he was more or less forced to join in 1939 there is once again a tiny, almost imperceptible, glimmer of truth behind the ridiculous story. He may indeed have had more sympathy for the regime than he later wanted to admit. So did a lot of people, but that doesn't mean that they joined the SS or any other party organisations ! 
It's this incorporation of an element of history into a fantastic story that I find disconcerting about both the type of 'history' being recounted here, and conspiracy theories in general.
Cheers
Steve

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## GrauGeist (Apr 19, 2016)

Regarding conspiracy theorie - there were quite a few user comments (I simply wouldn't glorify by repeating here) that covered the following keywords:
Illuminati
Zionists
World bankers
U.S. colonialism
U.S. imperialism
Nazis were simply defending themselves
Churchill
Russians won the war without help

And so on.

What's extremely disturbing, is that the majority of these off-base comments and outright misconceptions seen in reader comments on websites and social media, are posted by young people.

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## Airframes (Apr 19, 2016)

The really disturbing thing about all of these cases, is that these 'young people' could be the teachers of tomorrow, who then teach the teachers of the next generation. So in a few decades time, it could well be that the general thoughts on WW2 are that it either didn't happen, or the Nazis were good people trying to create a new Europe, with the US and its Allies intervening for financial reasons etc etc and so much other bunk. 
And remember, the people who are writing and posting this garbage, actually _believe_ they are right !!


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## GrauGeist (Apr 19, 2016)

I agree Terry.

In this day and age, with such easy access to factual data/information, it seems that people are more often falling for conspiracies and bending/distorting fact with fiction.

A while back, there was an article about the Confederate submarine Hunley. It was showing the various stages of conservation and artifacts that had been found along with the crew and other items. I also learned something about the Hunley I hadn't known before...it was not a commissioned ship of the Confederate Navy, therefore it was not the CSS Hunley as I had always thought. It was a ship of the Confederate Army!
Therefore, it's official name was H. L. Hunley

Anyway, at the end of the article, was of course the reader's comments and there was some really good feedback. And as always, you get a large share of stupid rearing it's head as well. I had copied one reader's response (saved to notepad) and had intended to reply but wasn't able to right away. When I went back a day later, it had been deleted by the page's editor because it started a sh!tstorm with several in support and the vast majority tearing the person apart.

As an end result, I still have that person's "history" lesson archived. So prepare to be "schooled"! 



> *Harris* This entire notion of a submarine used by the secessionists is absolute rubbish. The first submarine was of British design and the first modern submarine of any practical worth was of course British.
> Shame on all of you who follow this Colonial revisionism that glorifies a criminal movement which promotes enslavement and committed genocide against millions of native american peoples.
> To assume that barefoot illiterate criminals were capable of producing such a device proves beyond doubt that the public will fall for any odd story.


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## stona (Apr 19, 2016)

Again a grain of truth. The first successful submarine we know of was indeed English (not British at that time) though it was designed by a Dutchman.
What that has to do with the American Civil War I have no idea 
Cheers
Steve

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## mikewint (Apr 19, 2016)

As Steve said, a grain of truth:
Among the spoils divided up by the Allies was Germany’s brain trust. The U.S. made a major effort to recruit German scientists after the war, partly to bolster America’s capabilities, and partly to keep them out of Soviet (and even British) hands. President Harry Truman forbade the recruitment of any former member of the Nazi party or “an active supporter of Nazi militarism,” so naturally, the intelligence community immediately began targeting former members of the Nazi party, creating false records and often granting our former enemies government security clearance to get around Truman’s orders. When the Germans began seeking out scientists to help the war effort, they made sure they were ideologically sound. Loyal Nazis were recorded on the Osenberg List, and put into service. Socialists or those merely suspected of not being loyal to the Reich were ignored at best. After the war, the Osenberg List fell into Allied hands, and it was from this list the U.S. recruited Germany’s top minds.
In July 1945 the US War Department made their top-secret project official, circulating a memo titled “Exploitation of German Specialists in Science and Technology in the United States.” President Truman was not made aware of the initiative, which was initially known as Operation Overcast. Months later, when the War Department began tagging the falsified files of their most reprehensible Nazi recruits with paper clips as intra-office code — these Nazis were truly to be smuggled in, made known to no other bureaucracies — the program became known as Operation Paperclip.
Once he was made aware of Operation Paperclip and its potential benefits Truman ordered the Department of Commerce to propagandize the advances made by the Nazis, ones that were now making Americans’ lives easier, more comfortable.
By January 1946, two months after the Nuremberg trials had begun, there were more than 160 Nazis — many with their families — living and working in the United States.
A good number were housed at a facility called Hilltop in Dayton, Ohio, where many complained they were little more than “caged animals.”
The other group — at 115, the largest — was a team of rocket scientists held on Fort Bliss in Texas. Their leader was Wernher von Braun, who, it turned out, really loved America. He was enthralled with the desert and the open-air jeeps driven by Army personnel. He became an evangelical Christian. He was permitted to return to Germany to marry his 18-year-old cousin — von Braun was 46 — and bring her back to the US. If he had one complaint, it was his research budget.
As he later said, while working for the Third Reich “we’d been coddled. Here they were counting pennies.”
In November 1946, shortly after 10 Nazis were executed at Nuremberg, news broke that the US had smuggled hundreds of Nazis into the country, and that about 1,000 more were coming. (The final count was close to 1,600.) The government attempted damage control, then message control: These men, so mild-mannered with their silver hair and American sport jackets, had never been members of the Nazi party. The Army disseminated pictures of the men and their families engaged in wholesome outdoor activities, and any reporter requesting an interview had to submit their copy, pre-publication, to the army for approval.
Eleanor Roosevelt publicly decried the program, as did Albert Einstein. By March 1947, Paperclip had generated such lacerating public opinion that General Eisenhower, then the US Army chief of staff, demanded a briefing. It lasted 20 minutes, and upon emerging, Eisenhower said he approved of the project.
To name just a few:
1. *Wernher von Braun *was a member of various German political organizations, including the SS. He was the chief developer of the V-2 rocket. This rocket was the first ballistic missile ever created.
After Operation Paperclip, Braun became the director of the Development Operations Division of the Army Ballistic Missile Agency. While there, he developed the Jupiter-C rocket, which was used to launch America's first satellite. He was also credited as being instrumental in leading the moon mission.

2. Werner Dahm opposed the Nazis and resisted joining the party until given no other option. His research helped lead to the development of supersonic wind tunnels for the German rocket program, as well as major advancements in the understanding of aerodynamics.
After Paperclip, Dahm made huge contributions to the U.S. space race. He worked on the Saturn V booster rocket, aerothermodynamics, and liquid hydrogen propellant systems. For his work, he became Chief of the Aerophysics Division at NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center before becoming Chief Aerodynamicist at the NASA Center.

3. Hermann Kurzweg was a chief researcher and deputy director for the V-2 rocket program. He also helped design supersonic wind tunnels, as well as carrying out aerodynamic research on the anti-aircraft rocket, Wasserfall.
After Paperclip, Kurzweg became a technical director at the Naval Ordinance Laboratory in Maryland, where he continued his aerodynamics and aeroballistics research. Later, he became a chief researcher at NASA, investigating aerodynamics and flight mechanics.

4. Konrad Dannenberg worked closely with von Braun, helping to develop the V-2 rocket. He also helped organize and launch the first object ever to be sent into space by humans.
After Paperclip, Dannenberg continued to work closely on his former subjects. He helped the United States to produce rocket engines and missiles. Eventually, he also became deputy manager of the Saturn Program, which focused on creating engines for launching both satellites and space shuttles into space.

5. Kurt Debus was another member of the SS who helped work on and produce V-2 rockets for the Nazis. He was closely associated with von Braun and was responsible for leading the testing of the V-2 rocket.
After the war, Debus became a prime asset for NASA. His accomplished work on a variety of programs, including launching satellites and the eventual moon mission, led to him becoming the first ever director of the Kennedy Space Center.

6. Walter Dornberger was a Major-General in the army of the Third Reich. He was a Senior Artillery Commander and had personal contact with Hitler. His real passion and skill lay in engineering, and he was foundational in the development of rockets for the Nazis.
After the war, Dornberger continued his engineering research for the U.S. He spent time developing guided missile systems for the U.S. Military, before becoming the vice president of the Bell Aircraft Corporation. At Bell, he developed Bell's Rascal, the first guided nuclear air-to-surface missile.

7. Eberhard Rees was another researcher focused on the development of the V-2 rocket for the Third Reich. Although, reportedly, Rees' passion always lay with space. After the war, Rees managed to follow his passions. He developed ablative heat shields for NASA, and became the Deputy Director of Development Operations for the Army Ballistic Missile Agency. He also directed the lunar roving vehicle program, before becoming the director of the Marshall Space Flight Center.

8. Ernst Stuhlinger started his career as a Nazi soldier. He fought in the Battle of Moscow and the Battle of Stalingrad, before being shifted into research. Eventually, he came to work on guidance systems under von Braun. After Paperclip, Stuhlinger was brought in as director of the Advanced Research Projects Division of the Army Ballistic Missile Agency. He also contributed greatly to the space race, as he was one of the pioneers of electric propulsion. He also worked on the initial phases of the Hubble Telescope.

9. Hubertus Strughold has been accused of participating in extensive human experimentation under the Third Reich, though it has never been proven. The experiments he allegedly oversaw included performing surgery without anesthetic and depriving people of oxygen in vacuum compartments, as well as human experiments related to hypothermia. These experiments were meant to determine the effects of high altitude and supersonic flights on human beings. After the war, Strughold helped to pioneer the field of space medicine. He was vital in the investigation into the effects of weightlessness on people, as well as overseeing the building of space cabin simulators. At NASA, Strughold also played a central role in designing the pressure suit and the onboard life support systems used by Gemini and Apollo astronauts.

Lest you think that the US was alone, there were numerous other operations similar to Paperclip. The Soviets and British undertook similar efforts to capture and/or recruit German personnel (the Soviet equivalent was Operation Osoaviakhim), and all three countries attempted to secure manpower and equipment from Germany’s nuclear program. Operation Lusty involved securing Luftwaffe technology. Special Mission V-2 secured 100 V-2 missiles in what would become East Germany, from right under the Soviets’ noses. Less well known is Project 63, in which Nazi engineers were placed in jobs with Lockheed and other aerospace firms, even while Americans were being laid off from those same companies.


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## GrauGeist (Apr 19, 2016)

stona said:


> Again a grain of truth. The first successful submarine we know of was indeed English (not British at that time) though it was designed by a Dutchman.
> What that has to do with the American Civil War I have no idea
> Cheers
> Steve


The Confederate's Hunley was the first successful (depends on how you look at it) military submarine that mounted an attack and sank it's target, the USS Housatonic. Sadly, it sank with all hands during the attack.

It's layout, features and wartime attack are considered by many to to be the first modern military submarine.


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## stona (Apr 19, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> Sadly, it sank with all hands during the attack.



Well that 'success' certainly does depend how you look at it 

A successful submarine is by definition a craft that can operate under water and various types, by various nations, were tested in the first half of the 17th century.

Cheers

Steve


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## stona (Apr 19, 2016)

von Braun gave a similar excuse for his membership of the SS as he did for joining the NSDAP. It seems for him that there was never a choice.....oh look! a flying pig.
Cheers
Steve


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## mikewint (Apr 19, 2016)

And I have it Steve. Werner was ever the pragmatist no matter who held the reins of power.
In March 1945 seeing the end of the war was near and the Germans loosing, he conscripted two friends to stash his most important research out in an abandoned mine; when Germany lost, von Braun said, he’d use these documents to broker a new life in the United States.
He knew that no matter what atrocities were eventually discovered, no major world power would refuse the technological advances made by the Nazis — nor could they afford not to know how to combat them, vaccinate against them, outpace them.
As of May 1945, Werner von Braun was No. 1 on America’s list for desired Nazi rocket scientists. When he surrendered to US forces on May 2 — having voluntarily decamped from a luxury ski resort in the Alps — von Braun and his colleagues were treated to a hearty breakfast of eggs, coffee and bread, then given freshly made beds in which to sleep.
“I did not expect to be kicked in the teeth,” von Braun later told an American reporter. “The V-2 was something we had and you didn’t have. Naturally, you wanted to know all about it.”

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## GrauGeist (Apr 19, 2016)

stona said:


> Again a grain of truth. The first successful submarine we know of was indeed English (not British at that time) though it was designed by a Dutchman.
> What that has to do with the American Civil War I have no idea
> Cheers
> Steve


There have been many attempts at practical submersibles throughout history and the one you mentioned is perhaps the best documented of all those early projects. Something I always wondered about, though, is how they managed to propel it with oars without swamping it!  

Of the first "military" types, the Turtle used during the Revolutionary war is considered the first, although not successful.

Between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War, the Nautilus, developed by Fulton, brought on a more modern shape, but it was the Hunley that is considered the first true modern submarine by virtue of it's hull design, submersing abilities, and the combination of propulsion via propellor and steering by way of rudder.

Interestingly enough, about the same time the Hunley was going into action, the French and Spanish were developing mechanical powered submarines.

So the Hunley seems to have appeared at the right time in history to give it the notoriety of being the Grandfather of modern military submarines.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 19, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> Well...here we go again!
> 
> I came across more "history" in the comments section of an article about "Secret Nazi Weapons".
> 
> ...



I am truly embarrassed for the future of mankind. 

This is just terrible. Funny, but terrible.

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## T Bolt (Apr 19, 2016)

The Huntley was not sunk in the attack but rather sunk on the way back from the attack. Wile traveling with the hatch open it was swamped by a wave and sunk with all hands. I read this in a book by Clive Cussler the man who found the wreck of the Huntley.


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## mikewint (Apr 19, 2016)

Powered by human muscles with lighting by candles which, of course consumed oxygen. That's why the hatches were open


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## stona (Apr 20, 2016)

Looks fun! Sign me up 

Cheers

Steve


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## Wayne Little (Apr 20, 2016)

Not likely.....


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## Airframes (Apr 20, 2016)

Any boat _designed _to sink jut can't be right ..............


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## GrauGeist (Apr 20, 2016)

Airframes said:


> Any boat _designed _to sink jut can't be right ..............


Any boat can be a submarine.

Once...

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## vikingBerserker (Apr 20, 2016)

Yea well that one sank 3 times. When my college football stadium was being torn down to be rebuilt they discovered a number of Civil War Era graves and the crew to the 2nd time it sank was still buried there. The museum where the Hunley resides at has done a really nice job. I donated a Civil War newspaper that talked about the final attack though the boat was not named.

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## mikewint (Apr 20, 2016)

As a submarine, the Hunley was an excellent sinker it just wasn’t proficient at returning to the surface. The Hunley turned out to be an excellent UNION weapon. It killed 21 Confederates for the 5 who died on the Housatonic.
Five members of the first crew died in August 1863 when it accidentally dived while its hatches apparently were open. The second crew's eight members succumbed in October when the Hunley failed to return to the surface. The Confederate commander of Charleston, concerned about the loss of life and the expense of recovering the Hunley, ordered that any attack be made on the surface. Thus the Hunley was not submerged as it approached the Husatonic and a lookout aboard the Union Navy's Housatonic spotted something moving in the chilly waters. There had been talk of a Confederate secret weapon, so alarms went out on the Housatonic, which carried 12 guns.
The Hunley was too close and low to be hit by artillery fire, so crew and officers of the Union ship fired small arms, rifles and even a shotgun at the approaching menace.
Once in place, a submarine crew member managed to pull the lanyard for the 135-pound torpedo, attached to a 16-foot spar that was still connected to the Hunley's bow.
The Housatonic sank within minutes.
Five members of the Union vessel died; 150 others were rescued.
A Union sailor who climbed to the Housatonic's rigging and a Confederate observer on the shore reported seeing a blue light emanating from the Hunley, signaling mission accomplished. But researchers have been unable to precisely pinpoint the source of the light -- whether it came from a lantern or pyrotechnic device that sent out various signal colors. And it's possible the light came from Union rescuers. Experts looked at the Hunley's lantern, but found no evidence of blue glass.
The return of the Hunley remains a mystery. One scenario holds that the Hunley was swamped by or struck by a Union vessel. Or that it plunged to the sea floor to avoid detection, and never made it back up. A latch on the forward conning tower was found to be not properly locked. Then there’s the spar torpedo itself.
Until now, the conventional wisdom had been that the Hunley would ram the spar torpedo into her target and then back away, causing the torpedo to slip off the spar and then detonate. Instead, research showed the submarine was less than 20 feet from her torpedo when it exploded. It's possible that the force of the explosion incapacitated the crew, eventually causing the sub to slide down into the chilly depths. Even a small hole or holes could have allowed water to seep or pour in.
Researchers at the lab, while excavating the sub's interior silt that held the human remains, found that the eight Hunley crew members were still at or near their stations, despite an unsealed forward hatch. There was no evidence that anyone tried to get out of the submarine. This would seem to indicate something catastrophic occurred or they died with a certain amount of resignation.
Detailed examinations of the well-preserved remains of the crew looked for the tiniest of fractures or evidence of concussion. Researchers did not find any unhealed injuries to their skeletons so the mystery remains.


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## GrauGeist (Apr 20, 2016)

I always suspected that the shockwave from the torpedo's proximity may have stunned them.

It's construction was similar to that of a boiler and thus had relatively thin walls compared to more modern submarines. Add to that, the cramped confines of the interior and that would be enough to knock anyone for a loop.


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## Airframes (Apr 20, 2016)

Good info Mike.
Given the info regarding possible distance when the torpedo detonated, it's very likely the crew were incapacitated - literally knocked unconscious - or even killed outright, by the concussion.


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## mikewint (Apr 21, 2016)

My own personal theory is that the crew of the Hunley, having been under attack, having blown up the Housatonic and thus attracted the attention of the Union blockade fleet, submerged and attempted to escape underwater. The "blue light" signal observed by two witnesses would seem to indicate the crew survived the concussion. Underwater the cramped confines, men working hard at the crank plus candles for illumination lead to a carbon dioxide build-up and oxygen depletion which rendered the crew unconscious.
The dead men still at their positions and no attempt at escape points to an unconscious crew.
Through moderns forensics meet the crew


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## GrauGeist (Apr 21, 2016)

Fascinating forensic modeling!

But I still suspect several factors contributed to their demise:
the concussion of the torpedo, the adrenaline of the event, exceptional physical exertion and the poor ventilation


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## Wayne Little (Apr 21, 2016)

An interesting story for sure, thanks for the insight guys..


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## GrauGeist (Apr 21, 2016)

And here's more fun! 

An article about the XP-83 earned a great deal of "expert" insight in the social-media comments section where it was posted.

First of all, here's the XP-83:





And here's the article:
Late to the Party: The long range escort jet fighter of WWII

The article itself was just the basic info, most of which was copied from another website and not from an original source. I did find the opening statement amusing, however:
_"On 24 March 1944, with the war in Europe signalling the need for a long-range escort fighter and the P-51 Mustang not yet proven in this role, the USAAF tasked the builder of the first American jet aircraft to build a larger, longer-legged jet fighter."_
The P-51 had proven itself quite capable of long ranges well before this date and in late 1943, it had proven itself capable of the task of long range escort. But this let's not worry about this, let's go to the social-media comments where the real fun is! 

We start with Frank...Frank knows quite a bit about the Corsair, which has nothing to do with the XP-83, but Frank had to share his knowledge anyway! 


> *Frank* This plane,was and after though, was not a reliable plane,the juggernaut, fighter plane made in Evanston Illinois,is and allways the most expensive plane,too maintain,and the most successful Squadron,the red tails, Tuskegee Airmen,next was Pappy Boyington, where's his corsairs,but they where Limited,as the engine underpowered
> 
> *Ed* Sorry, the F4U Corsair, any model, was not underpowered.
> 
> ...



Because saying "it's well documented" always makes your comments authoritative:


> *Robert* and lets not forget the jet technology stolen by the Americans from the Brits...... it's well documented.



And then there's this guy - and the response...


> *Jack* Ok so last research project of "facts I thought I knew", what was the German "Bell" project or Hannebue?
> 
> *Ron* Jack.
> Both highly speculative German orojects that have never been totally proven that existed. I believe they did but nothing solid to prove it. The Bell supposedly was captured by the Americans as well as their flying saucer. The round building is prove for me that they had something. Why wire a building that way otherwise. Who knows about the Bell? I think they had something and were working very hard on time travel.
> ...



And lastly, we get those occasional expert, in-depth observations. Nevermind that the XP-83 was developed from the P-59, whose first flight (October 1942) came a few months after the Me262's first flight under jet power.
But facts ruin a good conversation 


> *Jerry* Gee wonder why it resembles the 262 ?
> 
> *David* Looks very similar to the ME 262
> 
> *Marc* Me 262 copy.


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## Airframes (Apr 21, 2016)

These people can't even string together an understandable sentence !
Oh, to have the patience, and be bothered in the first place, to reply to these ill-informed, semi-literate idiots, and explain to them just how much b*ll*cks they're all spouting out !


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## GrauGeist (Apr 21, 2016)

But seriously, Terry, how would you (with a straight face) actually respond to a statement like Franks:
"..."THUNERBOLT" P-4U-4, had 2535 hp,and a range,of 19,ooo miles,and the F-4U-4 , 2325 hp,and a range 1000 miles..."

I mean seriously, the P-4U-4 Thunerbolt? A range of 19,000 miles? Words escape me on that one.

Most of the others can *almost* be argued in a reasonable manner, but sometimes the stupid shines so bright, it's nearly impossible to see the keyboard...


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## Airframes (Apr 21, 2016)

Yeah, you're right.
I suppose the only way to explain to them would be by being totally blunt, something along the lines of "Look, you lot, don't talk b*ll*cks - go and research the subject before posting such utter drivel !"


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## at6 (Apr 21, 2016)

No wonder history is so screwed up now. Hope these p!$$ maggots aren't teachers.


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## mikewint (Apr 21, 2016)

Boy youse guys, wrong agin. The P-47N with its 305 gal internal and 2-165 gallon wing plus 1-110 gallon belly tank was modified further to carry 114 - 50 gallon drums of extra fuel. Thus California based P-47s could fly attack missions on the Germans at Moscow or Stalingrad then hit secondary targets in Japan and return to London

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## Airframes (Apr 21, 2016)

Yes Mike, but only if the pilot was under 5 feet six inches tall, weighed 140 pounds or less, and departed before 11.30 on a Tuesday - otherwise he would have to land in Iceland before returning ................

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## GrauGeist (Apr 21, 2016)

But Mike, that's the P-47 Thunderbolt...

Frank, the awesome fount of aeronautical knowledge was referring to the P-4U-4 "THUNERBOLT"

Obviously types like the P-47 and F4U can't hold a candle to the illustrious P-4U-4

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## mikewint (Apr 22, 2016)

Mea culpa...I meant to wright the correct Corsabolt model. The inverted gull-wing addition was for barrel attachment.
Youse Guys is soooo picky!!


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## at6 (Apr 22, 2016)

Wasn't the P-4U-4 Thunerbolt the thing that resembled a pickle with wings?


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## mikewint (Apr 22, 2016)

You're thinking of the earlier model the P-1U

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## Airframes (Apr 22, 2016)

But that piksha is a Japinees Zeno.


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## Gnomey (Apr 22, 2016)




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## Wayne Little (Apr 23, 2016)

I'm loving this thread....why....learning something new all the time.....


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## meatloaf109 (Apr 24, 2016)

Not having been in the forum for a while, I am sure the senility of some members has set in...
Everybody knows that the super secret German Me.-U-505 flying sub was the predecessor of the U.S. flying sub as fully documented in the quazi-documentary "Voyage to the bottom to the sea"!


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## GrauGeist (May 3, 2016)

And for our next installment:
A facebook clickbait page titled "*15 Rare Abandoned Aircrafts Found Around The Globe*" (yes, they said "aircrafts") with a cover photo of this wreck:





The "experts" were quick to identify this wreck.

_*Robert* Wrecked and abandoned B-24 Mitchell !!!

*Robert* TYPO-- B25 !!!!

*Joseph* B-24 Liberator. B-25 Mitchell. B-26 Marauder.

*Randy* Was gonna say Is It a Mitchell but someone allready noticed.

*Rick* omfg!! if you don't your history stfu.. thats not even a u.s. airplane.. its japanese.. 

*Eric* Mitsubishi"Kate";bomber on ain pic?

*Christian* I've seen this before. It's one of the lost Doolittle raider's

*Joseph* i saw this wreck in a old episode of transformers...guadacanal 1942_

And for extra credit, we have this comment:
_*Mark* if I could find me an aircraft with a V-16 motor in it, I'd be a happy camper, because I could put that motor in my car that I'm building right now._

Yes Mark, we'd love to find a V-16 for an aircraft too...

Anyway, for those who might be wondering, the aircraft pictured is a RNZAF Lockheed PV-1 Ventura (BuNo 34645) NZ4522 that was damaged by flak during a raid on Rabaul, 9 September 1944. The crew managed to make it as far as Talasea, New Britain, where it crash-landed.
Flight Lieutenant Thomas, Flying Officer Shanks, Warrant Officer Millar and Sergeant Budd all survived.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 3, 2016)

lulz...


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## vikingBerserker (May 4, 2016)

Just sad....................


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## Marcel (May 4, 2016)

What an enjoyable and highly informative thread, learning about mr hitter, war winning rifles, and criminal American governments. Great, didn't know any of this. 

Thanks Dave for these very informative posts.

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## GrauGeist (May 4, 2016)

Glad I can be of service, Marcel!

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## herman1rg (May 4, 2016)

I love the comments from the uneducated


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## Njaco (May 4, 2016)

1. Simon Lake invented the submarine. I am a direct descendant.  Simon Lake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2. Adolf Hitler died in an assassination attempt at a movie theater. It was documented in a documentary called "Inglorious Bastards."


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## stona (May 4, 2016)

I like the Simon Lake theory but he was a bit late 

The first definitely credible submarine was built by Dutchman Cornelius Drebbel in 1620, he may well have drawn on the plans of William Bourne from 1578.
Incidentally, when checking the dates for the reign of James I (and VI for any hailing from north of the border), I came across a Wikipedia entry (I know, I know) which managed not to mention one of the defining facts of his reign, that he was a protestant! And we wonder why Halloween is replacing Guy Fawkes/Bonfire night. James I (and VI) reigned from 1603-1625 in case anyone cares.
The first credible military submarine is less clear. By the early 18th century various designs were made and a few even built. The colonial traitor David Bushell designed a one man submarine and the rebels even claimed to have attacked a British ship with it in 1776, only problem is the British have no record of any submarine attack. Maybe a bit of American propaganda?
Another American, Robert Fulton, designed a submarine for the French which did prove capable in tests, but was never tried in anger. Now, however, we are in 1800 and the Napoleonic wars. 
The first submarine NOT powered by human power was French again, but you have to wait until 1863 for this. It was absolutely useless too!

Surely Hitler evaded the assassination attempt(s) and escaped to South America.....in a submarine!!!!!!!! I think that the documentary you mention may have been shown on the history channel, where all the best and most accurate historical research is turned into compelling and engaging programmes for our delectation. Even the history channel does get the odd fact right.....errrr.....I mean wrong

Cheers

Steve


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## mikewint (May 4, 2016)

Going to write this from memory so.... in any case that Revolutionary war sub was a one-man suc called the Turtle. It was fitted with an external mine which would be attached to the British ship's hull via a screw-type device operated within the Turtle's hull. Unfortunately for the Turtle the British ships copper-plated hull proved impervious to the screw and the mine could not be attached


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## Njaco (May 4, 2016)

Well, as a member of the Lake Family Association, we will still hold by the theory that Simon invented that steel tube during out annual meetings.


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## GrauGeist (May 4, 2016)

Lake's Argonaut was built in 1897, made of steel.

Hunley's sub was built in 1863, made of steel.

Bourgeois' Plongeur was built in 1863, made of steel.

Nordenfelt built several Nordenfelt-class subs in 1886-87, made of steel.

More built by Waddington, Peral, Zede/Krebs and Holland all before 1897.

So what exactly did Lake invent?


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## stona (May 5, 2016)

mikewint said:


> Going to write this from memory so.... in any case that Revolutionary war sub was a one-man suc called the Turtle. It was fitted with an external mine which would be attached to the British ship's hull via a screw-type device operated within the Turtle's hull. Unfortunately for the Turtle the British ships copper-plated hull proved impervious to the screw and the mine could not be attached



I think that's the one. I have a vague recollection of seeing a documentary in which some brave soul made a replica of the craft. Unfortunately my memory is a bit hazy, but one of the principal problems was the inability of the occupant to actually steer the craft in any meaningful way.
I think the conclusion was that the Americans did indeed launch the attack on HMS Eagle, but that it was almost impossible that the 'submarine' actually reached a British ship. 
I'm not sure that the copper theory holds water. 1776 was very early for any RN vessel to be routinely copper bottomed, certainly for a third rater like HMS Eagle. The copper sheet was very thin which makes one wonder what kind of drill was used. I think it more likely that the submarine never managed to navigate to the target, but we'll probably never know for sure.
Cheers
Steve


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## GrauGeist (May 5, 2016)

Steve, the Turtle was propelled by crank-driven screws.

Getting it out and into position would have been an exhausting, super-human task because of the hand-cranked screws that gave it forward motion, steerage and depth, let alone being able to drive the (yet another) screw to drill into into the oak hull (nevermind copper, oak is a bastard to work with) to secure the charge.

It is documented that the Turtle made a valiant attempt, but it just didn't go as well as they had imagined when this project was started.


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## Graeme (May 5, 2016)

Read somewhere that the nuclear-powered USS Nautilus was the first submarine. Anything before it was a "submersible".

True or false??


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## Shortround6 (May 5, 2016)

Depends on the definition of submarine and submersible. How many hours or how far can the craft in question stay under water or travel underwater.

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## mikewint (May 5, 2016)

The American submarine Turtle was built in Connecticut with the direct approval of General George Washington by David Bushnell an underwater explosives expert and inventor.
The Turtle was named so because of its shape, like two turtle shells mated together. It measured just three feet wide, 10 feet long and 6 feet tall. It could accommodate one man. Navigation was via a small rudder and propulsion, up/down and forward/backward, via two hand-cranked propellers. It remained water-tight by covering the whole vehicle, mainly built out of oak, in hot tar and running tight steel bands around it.
The little sub dived by allowing water to pour into a bilge tank at the bottom of the vessel, and it could surface via pumping out that water via a hand-cranked screw pump. In case of an emergency, such as a crack occurring in the boat's hull, there was 200lbs of lead that could be released, which would allow the sub to shoot back up to the surface. There was only enough air inside Turtle for one crewman to survive for 30 minutes.
There was a series of glass port holes on the top of the Turtle where its hatch met its hull. These provided light during daytime operations and a very basic view for navigational purposes. Since she would mainly operate at night, and a flame would use oxygen, internal illumination was provided by a cork that was covered in bioluminescent fungus.
On 7 September 1776, Sergeant Ezra Lee, one of three volunteers, slowly fought his way toward the HMS Eagle, which was moored south of Manhattan Island, after being towed out a ways from shore by row boats, Lee's progress was almost non-existent until the current began carrying him toward his objective. Once within clear view of HMS Eagle, he slowly submerged and crept underneath the big ship's stern, towards its rudder area. Here begun his attempt to drill into the Eagle so that the explosive package could be attached. Lee, however, was unable to break through what seemed like an impenetrable metal barrier (later it was thought that this was the iron plating around the ship's rudder hinge system). He then tried to submerge directly underneath the Eagle but the clumsy little sub had issues with staying in one place under the big ship's curved hull and fight the currents from the river and tide.
Lee eventually gave up on the attack, and made his way back out into the Hudson channel. Lee stated that he was spotted by the British as he left, and that multiple teams of sailors rowed out to investigate the strange object in the water. Lee then released the explosive charge, which was an elaborate timed device that used a fragile flintlock ignition system, to distract the search teams. The teams gave up long before the charge went off, which Lee said resulted in a massive explosion sending water high into the air.
Another attempt was made on October 5th, when Sergeant Lee attempted to attach a similar charge to a British Frigate also anchored off of Manhattan. He claimed that he was spotted on his approach to the ship so he aborted the mission. A few days later the Turtle was sunk as it sat atop its tender vessel near New Jersey. The British saw it and engaged it without a fight, blowing it to bits, although Bushnell claimed he salvaged parts of it.


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## Gnomey (May 5, 2016)




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## gumbyk (May 5, 2016)

mikewint said:


> Andy, I do like the fact that you guys have a "Prime Minister" instead of a President. Your current one, I think is Stephen Harper who is basically a more polite version of George Bush with nicer hair. He probably won't last long - and best of all you have a system where you can bring down governments you don't like.



You guys could have had that too, but you threw it out after some petty squabble (Something to do with tea, I think).
Guv'na General is the one with that sort of power, and AFAIK, its only ever been used in Australia (which is sort of becoming a mini-USA).


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 6, 2016)

Politics...


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## Wildcat (May 6, 2016)

gumbyk said:


> Australia (which is sort of becoming a mini-USA).


We are? In what ways?


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## Graeme (May 8, 2016)

Shortround6 said:


> Depends on the definition of submarine and submersible. How many hours or how far can the craft in question stay under water or travel underwater.



Thanks mate. So the definition depends on endurance...


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## T Bolt (May 8, 2016)

I thought the first submarine was invented my a guy named Nemo. They made a movie about it didn't they? Of was that about a striped fish?

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## herman1rg (May 8, 2016)

From the news of 2026. 
"USA President Donald Trump today agreed to a law repealing the limit on two Presidential terms for any single person and agreed to become President for life"


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## mikewint (May 8, 2016)

Meanwhile back at the ranch and more on topic. It is always good to define one's terms:
A *submarine* is a watercraft capable of *independent* operation underwater. It differs from a submersible, which has more limited underwater capability. In today’s terminology submarine most commonly refers to a large, crewed, autonomous vessel.

A *submersible* is a small vehicle designed to operate underwater. The term submersible is often used to differentiate from other underwater vehicles known as submarines, in that a submarine is a fully *autonomous *craft, capable of renewing its own power and breathing air, whereas a submersible is usually supported by a surface vessel, platform, shore team or sometimes a larger submarine.
Apart from size, the main technical difference between a "submersible" and a "submarine" is that submersibles *are not fully autonomous* and may rely on a support facility or vessel for replenishment of power and breathing gases. Submersibles typically have shorter range, and operate primarily underwater, as most have little function at the surface.
The key here IMHO is the ability to operate independently thus both the Hunley and Turtle were *Submarines*


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## gumbyk (May 8, 2016)

Wildcat said:


> We are? In what ways?





DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Politics...


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## GrauGeist (May 10, 2016)

Well...here we go again...

There was an article about an abandoned sub in Panama, on San Telmo Island, built by Julius Krohl in the 1860's. It's been there for about 145 years, being exposed by low tides, but the article make it sound all mysterious and a startling discovery but actually goes into some details about the sub (even though the article looks like it was written by a 7th grader).

While it was a somewhat interesting article, it turns out that the reader comments is where all the information was!

*Paul* I call bulls**t on this submarine is only invented second world war

*Samuel* There were no submarines 145 years ago
*Lisa* There were submarines used (or at least built and proposed) during the American Revolution. Research "The Turtle"
*Stephen* You're correct Lisa , there were , and I think I'm right in saying , it was on the confederates side , mostly made of timber and sealed with pitch / tar
*Lisa* Stephen umm, I hope you are being sarcastic. Revolutionary War late 1700s. Not Civil War in the mid 1800s However the confederates did have a sub named The Hunley.
*Garette* Hahaha. They just raised the Hunley a few years ago and laid the soldiers remains to rest. They were the last civil war soldiers to be laid to rest. The union also had a submarine. You should probably pick up a history book once in a while.

*Achilleas* There were submarines 145 years ago?

*Terry* We didnt have submarines 145 years ago

*Howard* 145 years rubbish
*Marshal* Do some research,it's not rubbish.there were subs during the civil war.
*Kirk* Not built like this smh

*Lance* Sorry it's a hoax

*Francisco* So were there subs before ww1?

*Graham* bulls**t!

*Diwa* 145 years ago?

*Todd* Submarines in 1871? I doubt it.
*Jason* Go back to school then subs were around over two millenia by then the first sub was made in 1620.
*Brian* Know your own Civil War

And in case anyone's wondering, here's Krohl's wreck, beached on San Telmo:


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2016)

I just want to shake my head.

Our education system at it's finest.


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## pbehn (May 10, 2016)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I just want to shake my head.
> 
> Our education system at it's finest.


On radio today, discussing the last West Ham match at Upton Park in London. "During the war it was hit by a "doodle bug" V1 rocket. I remember Stirling Moss talking about the "doodle bug", they were unmanned rockets that weaved about so quickly they were impossible to shoot down.

Apart from the complete BS about the V1 which didn't weave anywhere and could be shot down, the plonker decides to involve a legend of motor racing to give it credibility. Moss was born in 1929 and not one to make stupid statements, while our wonderful broadcasters are supposed to have degrees in English and journalism. I am starting to get the feeling that as the last people to live through it pass away, it is becoming a free for all for anyone to say the first thing that comes into their head.


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## GrauGeist (May 10, 2016)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I just want to shake my head.
> 
> Our education system at it's finest.


Sadly, nearly half the commenters on that submarine article are from other parts of the world...

We're all doomed!


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## Old Wizard (May 10, 2016)




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## stona (May 10, 2016)

As soon as I saw the V1 described as a rocket I switched off 

One national newspaper in this country described the Do 17 recovered from Goodwin Sands and now at Cosford as a Nazi jet bomber. The mind boggles. Even a cursory glance at Wikipedia, every lazy journalists friend, would have corrected that misapprehension

Cheers

Steve


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## bobbysocks (May 10, 2016)

pbehn said:


> ... I am starting to get the feeling that as the last people to live through it pass away, it is becoming a free for all for anyone to say the first thing that comes into their head.



I second that feeling. its way prevalent on ww2 gaming forums where there is more erroneous information than correct....

But this is a great thread to read when you have senior moment, brain fart, or other dimwitted episode that makes you feel like an idiot. read a bit and you will see you are A-OK.


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## bobbysocks (May 10, 2016)

stona said:


> As soon as I saw the V1 described as a rocket I switched off
> 
> One national newspaper in this country described the Do 17 recovered from Goodwin Sands and now at Cosford as a Nazi jet bomber. The mind boggles. Even a cursory glance at Wikipedia, every lazy journalists friend, would have corrected that misapprehension
> 
> ...


they don't expend the energy. there was a drug bust years ago where the police found drugs, lots of money, and several SKS-47 machineguns....at that point I quit watching the news for anything other than the sports and the weather..


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## GrauGeist (May 10, 2016)

bobbysocks said:


> they don't expend the energy. there was a drug bust years ago where the police found drugs, lots of money, and several SKS-47 machineguns....at that point I quit watching the news for anything other than the sports and the weather..


SKS-47 machineguns?

Is that like California's Attorney General (who should be well informed beyond that of a journalist) referring to rifle magazines as "high capacity assault clips"?

So what do you do with an "assault clip", throw them at people?


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## buffnut453 (May 10, 2016)

Assault clip = camouflaged paper clip? No?


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## Njaco (May 10, 2016)

I was only putting my 2 cents in on the subject of the submarine. Despite all this, Lake's machines are at the museum in New Groton, so he must have done something. Methinks. carry on.......


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## at6 (May 10, 2016)

Prepare to hand out Darwin Awards en masse.


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## Airframes (May 10, 2016)

Darwin Awards ?
That won't work - "competitors" for these awards have to have a minimum of one brain cell, in order to be able to create the idea, which leads to the act, which ultimately leads to the award of said "Darwin Award". 
The individuals 'featured' in the previous examples can't possibly qualify as, collectively, they share the equivalent of half a brain cell between the whole group - and that's being generous on the percentage of the brain cell, the latter not necessarily of human origin !!
And journalists are living proof that lazy Rs bar stewards can, if they _really_ try, string someone else's words together, in a vaguely cogent manner, but totally manipulated to suit the current story, and ensure they have their bonus paid at the end of the month - a total waste of rations, and no use to man or dog !!!


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## Graeme (May 10, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> While it was a somewhat interesting article, it turns out that the reader comments is where all the information was!



Dave, where is all this coming from? Is it just one site? Can you provide a link?
Cheers.


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## GrauGeist (May 10, 2016)

Graeme, these are found on social media (like facebook) for the most part, but I have seen similar comments posted to articles on news sites, like the NY Times, BBC and so on.

For example, on the Telegraph's site, they reported on a man in Kiel, Germany that had WWII military hardware confiscated, including a Flak88 and Panther. The article was fairly informative, but the comments section (found following the article) was certainly interesting.

You can read that here: Second World War tank and anti-aircraft gun found hidden in basement of villa in Germany


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## Old Wizard (May 11, 2016)

Nice toys.


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## GrauGeist (May 11, 2016)

Old Wizard said:


> Nice toys.


Yes, and I especially love how he used the Panther to help during the great snowstorm of 1978.

Can you imagine being in a ditch and a Panther pulls up to help? While that may have seemed like a blessed relief to any locals, it may have created a flashback or two to any poor Allied veteran stranded in that mess!


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## mikewint (May 11, 2016)

One could also wish the Cretins wold larn ta spoke Anglisha Keerectly. ASSAULT is a noun or a verb NOT an adjective


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## Graeme (May 12, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> Graeme, these are found on social media (like facebook) for the most part, but I have seen similar comments posted to articles on news sites, like the NY Times, BBC and so on.



Thanks mate, I'm with you now - I thought it was from another forum!

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## Wayne Little (May 12, 2016)

actually they are from another planet and it would be good if they went home....


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## vikingBerserker (May 12, 2016)

Amen..............


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## stona (May 12, 2016)

mikewint said:


> One could also wish the Cretins wold larn ta spoke Anglisha Keerectly. ASSAULT is a noun or a verb NOT an adjective



Whilst I agree, it is also true that the term 'assault rifle' is used to describe a particular type of rifle. There are many sub categories of rifle but they all remain rifles.

The term 'assault rifle' is a compound noun, in this case of the noun + noun variety (like toothpaste or sausage roll).

Cheers

Steve


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## mikewint (May 12, 2016)

Mostly agree though MY first impression of the Armalite in Vietnam was that the little plastic thing was a BB-gun. 
Any who...
A few weeks ago I stopped at Taco Bell for a quick bite to eat. In my billfold is a $50 bill and a $2 bill (the cashiers at my bank keep them for me when they happen to get one). That is all of the cash I have on my person. I figure that with a $2 bill, I can get something to eat and not have to worry about people getting mad at me.
Me: "Hi, I'd like one seven layer burrito please, to go."
Server: "Is that it?"
Me: "Yep."
Server: "That'll be $1.04, eat here?"
Me: "No, it's "TO-GO" [I hate effort duplication]."
At this point I open my billfold and hand him the $2 bill. He looks at it kind of funny and...
Server: "Uh, hang on a sec, I'll be right back."
He goes to talk to his manager, who is still within earshot.
The following conversation occurs between the two of them.
Server: "Hey, you ever see a $2 bill?"
Manager: "No. A what?"
Server: "A $2 bill. This guy just gave it to me."
Manager: "Ask for something else, THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A $2 BILL."
Server: "Yeah, thought so."
He comes back to me and says
Server: "We don't take these. Do you have anything else?"
Me: "Just this fifty. You don't take $2 bills? Why?"
Server: "I don't know."
Me: "See here where it says legal tender?"
Server: "Yeah."
Me: "So, shouldn't you take it?"
Server: "Well, hang on a sec."
He goes back to his manager who is watching me like I'm going to shoplift.
Server: "He says I have to take it."
Manager: "Doesn't he have anything else?"
Server: "Yeah, a fifty. I'll get it and you can open the safe and get change."
Manager: "I'M NOT OPENING THE SAFE WITH HIM IN HERE."
Server: "What should I do?"
Manager: "Tell him to come back later when he has REAL money."
Server: "I can't tell him that, you tell him."
Manager: "Just tell him."
Server: "No way, this is weird, I'm going in back."
The manager approaches me and says
Manager: "Sorry, we don't take big bills this time of night." [it was 8pm and this particular Taco Bell is in a well lighted indoor mall with 100 other stores.]
Me: "Well, here's a two."
Manager: "We don't take *those* either."
Me: "Why the hell not?"
Manager: "I think you *know* why."
Me: "No really, tell me, why?"
Manager: "Please leave before I call mall security."
Me: "Excuse me?"
Manager: "Please leave before I call mall security."
Me: "What the hell for?"
Manager: "Please, sir."
Me: "Uh, go ahead, call them."
Manager: "Would you please just leave?"
Me: "No."
Manager: "Fine, have it your way then."
Me: "No, that's Burger King, isn't it?"
At this point he BACKS away from me and calls mall security on the phone around the corner. I have two people STARING at me from the dining area, and I begin laughing out loud, just for effect. A few minutes later this 45 year old-ish guy comes in and says [at the other end of counter, in a whisper]
Security: "Yeah, Mike, what's up?"
Manager: "This guy is trying to give me some [pause] funny money."
Security: "Really? What?"
Manager: "Get this, a *two* dollar bill."
Security: "Why would a guy fake a $2 bill?"
Manager: "I don't know? He's kinda weird. Says the only other thing he has is a fifty."
Security: "So, the fifty's fake?"
Manager: "NO, the $2 is."
Security: "Why would he fake a $2 bill?"
Manager: "I don't know. Can you talk to him, and get him out of here?"
Security: "Yeah..."
Security guard walks over to me and says
Security: "Mike here tells me you have some fake bills you're trying to use."
Me: "Uh, no."
Security: "Lemme see 'em."
Me: "Why?"
Security: "Do you want me to get the cops in here?"
At this point I was ready to say, "SURE, PLEASE," but I wanted to eat, so I said
Me: "I'm just trying to buy a burrito and pay for it with this $2 bill."
I put the bill up near his face, and he flinches like I was taking a swing at him. He takes the bill, turns it over a few times in his hands, and says Security: "Mike, what's wrong with this bill?"
Manager: "It's fake."
Security: "It doesn't look fake to me."
Manager: "But it's a **$2** bill."
Security: "Yeah?"
Manager: "Well, there's no such thing, is there?"
The security guard and I both looked at him like he was an idiot, and it dawned on the guy that he had no clue. My burrito was free and he threw in a small drink and those cinnamon things, too.
Makes me want to get a whole stack of $2 bills just to see what happens when I try to buy stuff.

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## GrauGeist (May 12, 2016)

The term "Assault Weapon" supposedly refers to a modern military weapon, but by that definition, my 7x57 Mauser is an "Assault Weapon" as it was once the world standard in Military rifles.

I also have a Gladius Iberius, which was at one time in history, the leading edge (no pun intended) of Military weapon technology.

Since the majority of news sources and public sentiment seems to be drawn to "black rifles" as evil, yet ignore same weapon with wood furniture, then perhaps I should replace my Gladius' wood/brass/ivory handle with a poly carbonite handle and the bronze/nickle-silver hilt & pommel with black phosphate counterparts and see where that goes!

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## mikewint (May 12, 2016)

Devil get Thee behind me!


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## GrauGeist (May 12, 2016)

My "assault weapon" of choice.

It's great for close-quarter situations. Don't have to worry about stray rounds penetrating neighbor's walls. It's quiet, never jams and will never have an issue with "high capacity assault clips"... 






Oh, forgot to add that in an emergency, it can also slice bacon


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## Gnomey (May 12, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> Oh, forgot to add that in an emergency, it can also slice bacon



And that has to be the key point for any assault weapon ...

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## mikewint (May 12, 2016)

in that case:

_View: https://youtu.be/V7UW5AkWqOY_


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## Airframes (May 12, 2016)

But he'd be b*lloxed trying to fry the egg to go with the bacon !
Like it though.


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## stona (May 13, 2016)

The 'machine pistol' supposedly made with parts from Home Depot looks more like a sub machine gun. In British English usage those two are not the same thing.
Why are assault rifles and assault weapons being confused? Surely just about any weapon can be described thus, even the rolled up newspaper with which I intend to hit the guy who wrote that table 
Cheers
Steve


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## Shortround6 (May 13, 2016)

Assault gun/rifle/pistol/etc seems to be defined by whoever is writing the article/law or speaking with no regards to historical usage or common definitions in the field of expertise. As in politicians defining _ANY _rifle with over a 10 round feed device (not detachable magazine) as an assault rifle. Such as
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One of the first weapons _called _an assault gun.


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## mikewint (May 13, 2016)

Steve, SUBmachine gun is not a legally defined term and as such is used in different places to mean different things. In the USofA:
Code of Federal Regulations Title 27 Chapter II Subchapter B Part 478 Subpart B Section 478.11
When used in this part and in forms prescribed under this part, where not otherwise distinctly expressed or manifestly incompatible with the intent thereof, terms shall have the meanings ascribed in this section. Words in the plural form shall include the singular, and vice versa, and words importing the masculine gender shall include the feminine. The terms “includes” and “including” do not exclude other things not enumerated which are in the same general class or are otherwise within the scope thereof.
Handgun.
(a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(b) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.
Pistol.
A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
Revolver.
A projectile weapon, of the pistol type, having a breechloading chambered cylinder so arranged that the cocking of the hammer or movement of the trigger rotates it and brings the next cartridge in line with the barrel for firing.
Semiautomatic pistol.
Any repeating pistol which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge.
Machinegun
Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
The following is NOT included and is not a LEGAL term
Submachine Gun
An air-cooled, magazine-fed, automatic *carbine* designed to fire pistol cartridges. The term "submachine gun" was coined by John T. Thompson, the inventor of the Thompson submachine gun. Thompson added the “sub-“ prefix to denote the fact that his *Machinegun* used *Pistol* ammunition rather than *Rifle *ammunition. British Commonwealth sources often refer to SMGs as "machine carbines". Other sources refer to SMGs as "machine pistols" because they fire pistol-caliber ammunition, for example, the MP-40 and MP5, where "MP" stands for Maschinenpistole ("machine pistol" in German). However, the term "machine pistol" is also used to describe a handgun-style firearm capable of fully automatic or burst fire, such as the Stechkin, Beretta 93R and the H&K VP70. Personal Defence Weapons (PDW) such as the FN P90 and H&K MP7 are also commonly referred to as submachine guns. In addition, some compact rifles, such as the Colt XM177, HK53 and AKS-74U, are also referred to as SMGs, because they are used in the submachine gun role.


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## GrauGeist (May 13, 2016)

Shortround6 said:


> One of the first weapons _called _an assault gun.


Now that's going to be a little difficult to conceal under a jacket!


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## mikewint (May 13, 2016)

IT'S NOT WHAT IT IS, IT'S WHATCHA CALL IT THAT COUNTS:
The *Mare’s Laig* was the name given to a customized shortened rifle used by Steve McQueen’s character on the television series Wanted: Dead or Alive (1958–1961). McQueen’s character was named Josh Randall, and the gun has also been referred to as a Winchester Randall, or a Randall Special. "Mare's leg" is now a generic term for a Winchester Model 1892 (or modern derivative) with a shortened barrel and stock.
In the United States under the National Firearms Act, to make a short barreled rifle from a firearm originally made and sold as a rifle requires payment of $200.00 for a tax stamp, approval from the BATFE and federal registration. However, a “*lever action pistol*” made and sold subject to BATFE regulations is treated as a pistol by federal law. While most states will allow the purchase of Mare's Leg lever action pistols, California and New York have banned this gun from being sold in their individual states.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 13, 2016)

I love me some firearms guys, but lets try and get this back on topic.

Knowing the history of some of you guys, I see this eventually dabling into the realm of politics, as most firearms in America discussions go here on this forum.

I will reopen the "Guns We Own" thread that was closed because of it going all political, that way you have a thread for guns again. Just don't go all political again. Ok?


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## GrauGeist (May 14, 2016)

Well - it never ends...

A pictorial article about the Titanic launches some extremely interesting comments.

Not sure what to think about this, but I imagine everyone is just as surprised as I am to learn about the German attack on San Francisco:


> *Larry* I have done exhaustive research on the original blueprints of the Titanic and most people don't know about the secret tunnel systems and burial chambers deep within Titanics hull. In 1943 famed adventurer and researcher Dr Artemis Renfro discovered the secret blueprint scrolls of Thomas Andrews, designer of the RMS Titanic in the basement of a San Francisco clothing store just before it was bombed by the Nazi Luftwaffe on August 15. Barely making it out alive, Dr Renfro committed the blueprints onto 17 napkins from memory. (These napkins are now proudly on display at the Titanic museum in Belfast)
> If you'd like to learn more, check out Dr. Artemis Renfros book, "The Slippery Nazi Anus" published in 1951.
> *Sean* I didn't know that San Francisco was bombed by the Nazis
> *Larry* Extensively..
> ...



Either Larry is pulling everyone's chain or he's been smoking some seriously strong stuff.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 14, 2016)

He is pulling everyones chain...

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## Airframes (May 14, 2016)

Either that, or he's a Hollywood script writer .....................


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## Shortround6 (May 14, 2016)

Documentaries!!


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## stona (May 14, 2016)

He's pulling chains, but even then he has misidentified the designer of the Titanic. He is not alone in this. The ever unreliable Wikipedia gets its facts seriously tangled up on this. The man who designed the Olympic class liners was Alexander Carlisle who had been chief naval architect at Harland and Wolff since 1889. Thomas Andrews, often credited with the design, merely took over when Carlisle resigned in June 1910. At this time Olympic was plated and four months away from launch and Titanic was in frame. When Andrews took over both the design and most ongoing design decisions had been taken, the former years earlier.

I blame film for this. In this case not 'Hollywood history' as the culprit is the 1958 film 'A Night to Remember'. However many of the factual inaccuracies in that film carried over to the later 'Titanic'.

Cheers

Steve


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## mikewint (May 14, 2016)

Chris, Thank you for reopening that thread. It is difficult to stay apolitical with what has become an increasingly hot topic.
Let's see. How about quotes from that stunningly intellectual product of the finest private schools: Paris Hilton

Despite the fact that Adolph Hitler is hated everywhere, he was very intelligent and only lost because of his inadequate generals who decided not to completely swarm Paris and not to finish bombing Britain. These were the main reasons why Germany lost in World War II. And they were not the faults of Adolph Hitler.

"RIP Nelson Mandela. Your I have a dream speech was beautiful."

"Wal-mart. Do they make walls there? "

"What's a Soup Kitchen? "


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## GrauGeist (May 14, 2016)

stona said:


> He's pulling chains, but even then he has misidentified the designer of the Titanic. He is not alone in this. The ever unreliable Wikipedia gets its facts seriously tangled up on this. The man who designed the Olympic class liners was Alexander Carlisle who had been chief naval architect at Harland and Wolff since 1889. Thomas Andrews, often credited with the design, merely took over when Carlisle resigned in June 1910. At this time Olympic was plated and four months away from launch and Titanic was in frame. When Andrews took over both the design and most ongoing design decisions had been taken, the former years earlier.
> 
> I blame film for this. In this case not 'Hollywood history' as the culprit is the 1958 film 'A Night to Remember'. However many of the factual inaccuracies in that film carried over to the later 'Titanic'.
> 
> ...


You know that the archived film footage of the Olympic in New York was passed off as the Titanic at the time and because of that, the names of the tugboats were edited out.
As it happens, now there is a group of conspiracy theorists (big surprise) who have come up with all sorts of fantasies based on that footage: like the Titanic never existed, it never sank, it was confiscated by the government and used as a warship, etc. etc.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 14, 2016)

mikewint said:


> Chris, Thank you for reopening that thread. It is difficult to stay apolitical with what has become an increasingly hot topic.



No it is not difficult. It is pretty easy. There is a time and place, and you keep such discussions for there time and place.


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## Airframes (May 14, 2016)

I've just been looking at the UK air shows calendar listings for this year, and decided to then visit the web site for the Great Yorkshire Air Fest, to be held at Church Fenton on July 2nd this year.
Now bear in mind that this was the official web site for the show, presumably designed by, or for, the show organisers, for a well established, annual show held on a RAF airfield.
It would seem that not only the poor uneducated members of the 'History according to ...' fraternity are lacking in general military or aviation knowledge, but some air show organisers are too, because, according to the above-mentioned official web-site, at this show, one can see a P-51 Mustang fighter _jet_, and a Catalina _boat_-plane, as well as the _'infamous'_ B-25 bomber.
With that sort of informed description of participants, and the fact that the show is now downgraded from two days to one, methinks I'll be giving it a miss - shame, as there's going to be two SAAB products there I would have liked to have seen, the Viggen and the Draken, which I believe are a people carrier and luxury saloon respectively ...................

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## GrauGeist (May 14, 2016)

Such a shame, Terry...I would love a chance to see a P-51 fighter jet!

As far as the boat-plane, just like any ship can be a submarine, so too can any aircraft be a boat - once.


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## mikewint (May 14, 2016)

Chris, to rephrase: Hard for me to stay apolitical... Me mouth has got me into more trouble than any other organ.

*Dontopedalogy 
A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls*.
Dan Quayle
*Airplanes are interesting toys, but they have no military value.*
Marshal Ferdinand Foch in 1911
An English astronomy professor said in the early 19th century that air travel at high speed would be impossible because passengers would suffocate.
*And what do you do?*
Queen Elizabeth II, to four British guitar greats, Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck and Brian May, at reception for British music industry at Buckingham Palace March 2005
*Are you a guitarist, too?*
Queen Elizabeth II, to Led Zeppelin's Jimmy Page who co-wrote Stairway to Heaven, at Buckingham Palace reception for British music industry March 2005
*Are you Indian or Pakistani? I can never tell the difference between you chaps.*
Duke of Edinburgh Prince Philip, at Washington Embassy reception for Commonwealth members
*China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese.*
Charles De Gaulle, former French President
*Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.*
Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949
*Do not bother to sell your gas shares. The electric light has no future.*
Professor John Henry Pepper, on Thomas Edison's electric light invention
*Do you still throw spears at each other?*
Duke of Edinburgh Prince Philip, to Australian Aborigines
*Everyone is at peace and happy and they all hop around from cloud to cloud. And an old man with a long, white beard wanders around - that's God.*
Britney Spears, on her view of heaven
*Everything that can be invented has been invented.*
Charles H Duell, Commissioner of US Office of Patents, 1899
*For every fatal shooting, there were roughly three non-fatal shootings. And, folks, this is unacceptable in America. It's just unacceptable. And we're going to do something about it.*
George W Bush
*For NASA, space is still a high priority*.
Dan Quayle
*Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union.*
Josef Stalin, November 1935
*Have you been playing a long time?*
Queen Elizabeth II, to rock legend Eric Clapton re his guitar playing, at Buckingham Palace reception for British music industry March 2005
*How do you keep the natives off the booze long enough to pass the test.*
Duke of Edinburgh Prince Philip, to Scottish driving instructor
*I can do anything you want me to do as long as I don't have to speak.*
Linda Evangelista, supermodel
*I don't believe in black majority rule in Rhodesia…not in a thousand years.*
Ian Smith, March 1976
*I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves.*
John Wayne

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## nuuumannn (May 14, 2016)

mikewint said:


> Me mouth has got me into more trouble than any other organ.



Ha ha! Don't be so hard on yourself, Mike; you and the rest of the human race, it seems!

"I'll be long gone before some smart person ever figures out what happened inside this Oval Office." —President George W. Bush, in an interview with the Jerusalem Post, Washington, D.C., May 12, 2008


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## Gnomey (May 15, 2016)

That's not ideal Terry and a good enough reason to go. Shame to see though.


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## bobbysocks (May 15, 2016)

mikewint said:


> Mostly agree though MY first impression of the Armalite in Vietnam was that the little plastic thing was a BB-gun.



I heard some VN vets refer to it as the "Mattel toy".....supposedly the toy maker Mattel made some or all of the plastic furniture for the gun...


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## GrauGeist (May 15, 2016)

bobbysocks said:


> I heard some VN vets refer to it as the "Mattel toy".....supposedly the toy maker Mattel made some or all of the plastic furniture for the gun...


Mattel never had anything to do with the M-16...even when it was under development as the AR-10

This is the closest that Mattel has ever come to manufacturing an M-16:


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## mikewint (May 15, 2016)

Bobby, one last comment "off topic"
After the M14s, BARs, M1s, and M2 all wood stocked and .30cal, the little plastic .22 looked like a toy
Our Group was the first to receive the Colt 602s. While I agree that Mattel never made the ENTIRE rifle they did in fact make some of the plastic parts and initially the mattel logo was stamped on the hand grip reinforcing the toy-image. The stamped logo was soon eliminated 
Colt factory reps SPECIFICALLY told us that the gun was such a precision-made weapon it never needed cleaning and there was therefore no cleaning kit. The eventual fouling lead to the many mis-fires and jams. Finally a cleaning kit and a comic book HOW-TO


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 15, 2016)

Can we get back on topic???


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## GrauGeist (May 16, 2016)

Didn't think we'd get through the weekend without some experts weighing in, did ya'?

And here we go. The subject was photos taken by Apollo 8 as it circled the moon, providing humans a look at the back side of the moon for the first time in history.
Of course, there are the authorities who wasted no time in providing their profound knowledge on the subject:

*Stephen* No ones landed on the moon

*John* Hoax! The the sunlit side does not face the same direction as the sunlit side of the moon.

*Gary* That because USA never landed on the moon.

*John* Never went to the moon.

*Brian* Why is the most treasured most valuable most expensive film ever shot in the history of modern man LOST ! ie: the moon landing ?
Hmmmm ??? I mean come f**king off the s**t pot !! You misplace or tape over you bloody wedding video and a tornado hurricane s**t storm is going to mess you up so bad!! "Wife" . And the majority of gullible asshats go it's ok Nasa. That film only cost a trillion $. Alls good ..

*Rory* None of the Apollo craft left earth dumbasses! Research flat earth and stop being suckered into this alien deception

*Chris* I dont believe we have ever had a man on the moon

*Sid* We have never been to the moon - nasa liars

*Masacru* they never got to the moon, not even near it, bunch of bullshit.

*Bencomo* In your dreams Pedro f**ken white people never land it on the moon they landed on a movie set

Then *Rory* went on to post about 15 conspiracy memes that "proved" NASA is just a cover up, moon landings were staged and no one's ever been in space (including Shuttles, Mir, the ISS, etc...)

These (and Rory's memes) were among about 165 comments...

Isn't the internet awesome?


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## Wayne Little (May 16, 2016)

Just shaking my head.....


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## pbehn (May 16, 2016)

I am proud of our wonder diplomat Prince Philip getting so many quotes, he really is a class act.

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## fubar57 (May 16, 2016)

Sad, humanity is devolving. Coming soon


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## GrauGeist (May 16, 2016)

fubar57 said:


> Sad, humanity is devolving. Coming soon


What blows me away, is that these same people have a super-computer in their pockets, that they call, text and surf the internet on.

50 years ago, a computer of comparable power would have filled a building and cost well over 3 million dollars and yet, they think that mankind is so helpless, that we couldn't put a man into space, let alone on the moon.

Every waking moment of their ordinary day, they use technology that was unthinkable a little over 100 years ago...

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## mikewint (May 16, 2016)

Actually easy to understand when you look at today's schools:
The following are actual exam answers taken from a group of 17 year olds:
1. Ancient Egypt was inhabited by mummies and they all wrote in hydraulics. They lived in the Sarah Dessert and travelled by Camelot. The climate of the Sarah is such that the inhabitants have to live elsewhere.
2. The Bible is full of interesting caricatures. In the first book of the Bible, Guiness, Adam and Eve were created from an apple tree. One of their children, Cain, asked, “Am I my brother’s son?”
3. Moses led the Hebrew slaves to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread which is bread made without any ingredients. Moses went up on Mount Cyanide to get the ten commandments. He died before he ever reached Canada.
4. Solomon had three hundred wives and seven hundred porcupines.
5. The Greeks were a highly sculptured people, and without them we wouldn’t have history. The Greeks also had myths. A myth is a female moth.
6. Actually, Homer was not written by Homer but by another man of that name.
7. Socrates was a famous Greek teacher who went around giving people advice. They killed him. Socrates died from an overdose of wedlock. After his death, his career suffered a dramatic decline.
8. In the Olympic games, Greeks ran races, jumped, hurled the biscuits, and threw the Java.
9. Eventually, the Romans conquered the Greeks. History calls people Romans because they never stayed in one place for very long.
10. Julius Caesar extinguished himself on the battlefields of Gaul. The Ides of March murdered him because they thought he was going to be made king. Dying, he gasped out: “Tee hee, Brutus.”
11. Nero was a cruel tyranny who would torture his subjects by playing the fiddle to them.
12. Joan of Arc was burnt to a steak and was canonised by Bernard Shaw. Finally Magna Carta provided that no man should be hanged twice for the same offence.
13. In midevil times most people were alliterate. The greatest writer of the futile ages was Chaucer, who wrote many poems and verses and also wrote literature.
14. Another story was William Tell, who shot an arrow through an apple while standing on his son’s head.
15. Queen Elizabeth was the “Virgin Queen.” As a queen she was a success. When she exposed herself before her troops they all shouted “hurrah.”
16. It was an age of great inventions and discoveries. Gutenberg invented removable type and the Bible. Another important invention was the circulation of blood. Sir Walter Raleigh is a historical figure because he invented cigarettes and started smoking. And Sir Francis Drake circumcised the world with a 100 foot clipper.
17. The greatest writer of the Renaissance was William Shakespeare. He was born in the year 1564, supposedly on his birthday. He never made much money and is famous only because of his plays. He wrote tragedies, comedies, and hysterectomies, all in Islamic pentameter. Romeo and Juliet are an example of a heroic couplet. Romeo’s last wish was to be laid by Juliet.
18. Writing at the same time as Shakespeare was Miguel Cervantes. He wrote Donkey Hote. The next great author was John Milton. Milton wrote Paradise Lost. Then his wife died and he wrote Paradise Regained.
19. During the Renaissance America began. Christopher Columbus was a great navigator who discovered America while cursing about the Atlantic. His ships were called the Nina, the Pinta, and the Santa Fe.
20. Later, the Pilgrims crossed the ocean, and this was called Pilgrim’s Progress. The winter of 1620 was a hard one for the settlers. Many people died and many babies were born. Captain John Smith was responsible for all this.
21. One of the causes of the Revolutionary War was the English put tacks in their tea. Also, the colonists would send their parcels through the post without stamps. Finally the colonists won the War and no longer had to pay for taxis. Delegates from the original 13 states formed the Contented Congress. Thomas Jefferson, a Virgin, and Benjamin Franklin were two singers of the Declaration of Independence. Franklin discovered electricity by rubbing two cats backwards and declared, “A horse divided against itself cannot stand.”. Franklin died in 1790 and is still dead.
22. Soon the Constitution of the United States was adopted to secure domestic hostility. Under the constitution the people enjoyed the right to keep bare arms.
23. Abraham Lincoln became America’s greatest Precedent. Lincoln’s mother died in infancy, and he was born in a log cabin which he built with his own hands. Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves by signing the Emasculation Proclamation. On the night of April 14, 1865, Lincoln went to the theatre and got shot in his seat by one of the actors in a moving picture show. The believed assinator was John Wilkes Booth, a supposedly insane actor. This ruined Booth’s career.
24. Meanwhile in Europe, the enlightenment was a reasonable time. Voltaire invented electricity and also wrote a book called Candy.
25. Gravity was invented by Issac Walton. It is chiefly noticeable in the autumn when the apples are falling off the trees.
26. Johann Bach wrote a great many musical compositions and had a large number of children. In between he practised on an old spinster which he kept up in his attic. Bach died from 1750 to the present. Bach was the most famous composer in the world and so was Handel. Handel was half German half Italian and half English. He was very large.
27. Beethoven wrote music even though he was deaf. He was so deaf he wrote loud music. He took long walks in the forest even when everyone was calling for him. Beethoven expired in 1827 and later died for this.
28. The French Revolution was accomplished before it happened and catapulted into Napoleon. Napoleon wanted an heir to inherit his power, but since Josephine was a baroness, she couldn’t have any children.
29. The sun never set on the British Empire because the British Empire’s in the East and the sun sets in the West.
30. Louis Pasteur discovered a cure for rabbis. Charles Darwin was a naturalist who wrote the Organ of the Species. Madman Curie discovered radio. And Karl Marx became one of the Marx brothers.

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## fubar57 (May 16, 2016)

These are actual questions asked about Canada(I deleted the "funny" answers). To be honest, I've seen dumb questions asked about other countries but c'mom....at least I make an effort using this internet thingy.

Believe it or not these questions about Canada were posted on an International Tourism Website
Q: I have never seen it warm on Canadian TV, so how do the plants grow? (UK)
Q: Will I be able to see Polar Bears in the street? (USA)
Q: I want to walk from Vancouver to Toronto-can I follow the Railroad tracks? (Sweden)
Q: Is it safe to run around in the bushes in Canada? (Sweden)
Q: It is imperative that I find the names and addresses of places to contact for a stuffed Beaver. (Italy)
Q: Are there any ATM's (cash machines) in Canada? Can you send me a list of them in Toronto, Vancouver, Edmonton and Halifax? (UK)
Q: Can you give me some information about hippo racing in Canada?(USA )
Q: Which direction is North in Canada? (USA)
Q: Can I bring cutlery into Canada? (UK)
Q: Can you send me the Vienna Boys' Choir schedule? (USA)
Q: Do you have perfume in Canada? (Germany)
Q: Can you tell me the regions in British Columbia where the female population is smaller than the male population? (Italy)
Q: Do you celebrate Thanksgiving in Canada? (USA)
Q: Are there supermarkets in Toronto and is milk available all year round? (Germany)
Q: I have a question about a famous animal in Canada, but I forget its name. It's a kind of like a big horse with horns. (USA)
Q: Will I be able to speak English most places I go? (USA)


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## bobbysocks (May 16, 2016)

I watched part of a documentary just the other night about NASA's pictures of the lunar surface....the crux of the story was the pictures showed alien space craft....factories where aliens were mining helium 2 ( or was it 3 ? )...pipelines across the surface and a stack that was a mile high that expelled smoke or gas just before the Gemini craft with the LEM passed by, the idiots never once concluded it was Nazi machinery and craft up there....


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## bobbysocks (May 16, 2016)

Salomon had 700 porcupines.....LMAO


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## mikewint (May 16, 2016)

Couldn't find all that but:
A huge “alien city” has been discovered on the surface of the moon in a NASA photo, by a prominent UFO researcher — and this isn’t the first time that UFO hunters have claimed to discover actual cities on the moon, cities that the UFO enthusiasts accuse NASA of knowing about, but covering up for decades.
The image turns up on the Google Earth app, in the often overlooked feature of the app known as Google Moon.
While not every Google user is aware of this feature, which is available under the “View” menu and “Explore” sub-menu on the Google Earth software, Google moon actually allows users to explore the surface of the moon through a complex composite of NASA images.
“The Moon mode in Google Earth was released on the 40th anniversary of the first lunar landing on July 20, 2009,” NASA explains on the space agency’s site. “Much like the Mars mode, this allows a user to transform the blue and green ball of Google Earth into the Moon, and explore our nearest celestial neighbor as a world in its own right.”
To find the “alien city” on the surface of the moon, open the Google Moon application and enter the following coordinates in the “search” field: 28°10’30.12″N 22°42’5.99″W.


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## Airframes (May 17, 2016)

Phhtt !
That's not an 'Alien city'. It's the relatively new drone parcel delivery HQ, opened as a joint venture by Amazon and e-bay.
I thought _everyone _would know that .............

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## Old Wizard (May 17, 2016)




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## GrauGeist (May 17, 2016)

And for today's enlightenment, we get the threadworn "Top Ten Worst Aircraft of WWII" courtesy of The Vintage News. The comments are certainly interesting, but the list itself actually competes for attention, too.

So we'll start with the informative list:
*WWII Boulton-Paul Defiant MK.1*
Boulton-Paul Defiant MK.I – Great Britain


 No forward guns
Slow in maneuvers
Two squadrons annihilated in a single day
Briefly utilized on night missions
Eventually used only as part of rescue missions, gunnery training and target towing

*WWII Brewster Buffalo*

*Brewster Buffalo – United States*
Produced only from 1938 – 1941
Poor performance possibly due to light weight of the aircraft
First monoplane fighter for US Navy
First monoplane with arrestor hook
Only four nations other than US used this aircraft
Of the four, only one (Finland) found it to be effective

*Great Britain’s WWII Blackburn Botha*

*Blackburn Botha – Great Britain*
Under-powered
Unstable airframe
Extraordinary number of fatal crashes, developing the reputation as a death trap
Eventually withdrawn and used for training missions, coastal patrols and carrying anti-submarine bombs

*WWII Blackburn Roc – Great Britain*

*Blackburn Roc – Great Britain*
Single-engine, monoplane
Armament prevented gunner from firing unless aircraft was flown straight and level making it impractical in a dog fight
No forward firing guns
Difficult for gunner to bail from aircraft
Top speed was only 160 mph

*RAF’s Fairey Battle
Fairey Battle – Great Britain*

Despite power of Rolls-Royce engine, the bombing load and three-man crew added too much weight for the light bomber
Armament not adequate against more modern aircraft
Inadequate speed
Despite scoring first official aerial victory of WWII for the RAF, heavy losses were eventually recorded
Withdrawn from battle and used in overseas training


*Douglas TBD Devastator – United States*
Despite initial pre-war status as an advanced fighter, by the bombing of Pearl Harbor, aircraft was considered obsolete
Alternative World War II aircraft was still in testing phase
Speed made it vulnerable to fighters on patrol
Entire fleet was almost wiped out in Battle of Midway


*Lavochkin Gorbunov Doudkov LaGG3 – USSR*
Wooden airframe – essential parts protected by Bakelite lacquer
Proved too heavy for its own frame
Slow engine and poor climbing rate
Prone to shattering when hit and spinning if turned too quickly
WWII Pilots referenced it as “guaranteed varnished coffin”


*Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet – Germany*
Only operational rocket-powered fighter aircraft
Unsuccessful as a fighter
Armament only allowed a minimal amount of firing time
Velocity of armament compromised aim
High fuel consumption
Highly explosive
High take-off and landing loss


*Messerschmitt Me 210 – Germany*
Poor flight characteristics for a WWII aircraft
Design flaws never really resolved
Unstable and prone to stalling


*Yokosuka MXY -7 Ohka – Japan*
The final entry on our list, the MXY-7 Ohka (Cherry Blossom) wasn’t a plane as such, but a manned missile. By 1944, Japan was growing increasingly desperate to stem the Allied advance through the Pacific. The solution was a dedicated kamikaze craft, built out of non essential materials, and packing enough explosives to sink a heavily armoured warship. It was designed to be carried underneath the Mitsubishi G4M “Betty” bomber. Once near the target it would be released, using its three rocket motors in a 1000kph (620mph) dive at enemy shipping. It was incredibly basic, the cockpit having just four instruments, but since it would only ever be a one way trip this was considered unimportant. Grand plans were put forward for waves of suicide aircraft to be launched from planes, submarines and even caves.

And there we have it, the informative list of the worst aircraft according to them. Now, we'll see the informative comments from "those that know" 

*Francois* it was extremely fast, but also could explode very easy, different technology then the ME 262
*Roy* Agree it was a revolutionary aircraft. The reason it was probably on this list was that it needed auxiliary drop off engines to take off and by the time it to altitude and made one pass at the allied bombers it had to return and land because of fuel capacity and usage. If Hitler had embraced the idea earlier and more resources were put into it Europe, England and Russia would be speaking German for the past three generations. I had a friend growing up who's father was an ace in Europe (yes, I'm a baby boomer), he flew a P51G Mustang and said the Komet's were so fast they couldn't touch them. I remember him telling me something not too many people know, when those old prop aircraft would fire their four or six forward facing .50 cal. machine guns, their aircraft would slow down 50 to 75 mph making the Komet even harder to hit.
*Charles* I knew an old mn that had been in training on Komets (glider versions) when WW2 ended. He flew many training flights & thought the Komet handled well & flew like a dream. It was the highly toxic & volatile fuels that were the problem, they could literally dissolve a pilot.
*Bolwerk* Explosive landing on that skid.

*Francisco* well, that's a nice top ten, but you forgot all the italian planes, they would make the entire top ten worst WWII airplanes haha

*Neil* Surely this should be in the top ten, awful machine!! (picture of a Breda 88)

*Christopher* Me 163 was a rocket powered aircraft if the pilots clothing came in contact with the fuel his clothes would spontaneous combused,
*Bolwerk* Would land on a skid and blow up too frequently.

*Rob* The He-162 was pretty terrible too...
*Russell* The HE162 was intended to tip over when landing. Originally intended as a fighter for newly trained pilots, it failed miserably.

*Jerry* The CIA was an extension of the German SS was the Secret Service and it was the inception of Operation Paperclip which obtained all governmental parts of the Third Reich, Thule Society, Black Sun and Vrill society be integrated with US agencies in all fields and capacities, specially in UFO tech and Clonnng tech as well as Stargate tech... 

*Andy* the B29 deserves a mention
*Keith* Yep, if they are going to put the Me 163 in then the B-29 dang sure deserves to be there if for engine overheating and causeing fires. Much less the generator in the tail being prone to breaking loose.
*James* B29s got a lot of young men killed.

*Timothy* Bell Air Cobra...


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## fubar57 (May 17, 2016)

It's a shame the B-29 never caught on..............

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## GrauGeist (May 17, 2016)

fubar57 said:


> It's a shame the B-29 never caught on..............


I agree...it could have been a game changer if ever given a chance...


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## mikewint (May 17, 2016)

Terry, the term is APOPHENIA. The human brain receives sensory input and then assembles that input into something meaningful to the observer. At times even filling in missing data with its own inputs. So that people all over the world "see" a Man-in-the-Moon (it's actually a rabbit), animals/faces/etc. in the clouds, religious figures in a piece of toast, etc. Thus a group of blurry dark splotches become "The Face on Mars"
Look a the picture below. Three circles and a line, almost all will see a face yet those geometric figures have none of the attributes of a real face.
In 1894 Percival Lowell built a large observatory in Flagstaff, Arizona and spent the next 15 years observing the planet making hundreds of sketches of what he saw: cities, canals, green fields the expanded and receded with the seasons. When the Mariner pictures finally arrived there was absolutely nothing resembling was Lowell had drawn

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## bobbysocks (May 17, 2016)

I knew it was a rabbit!


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## Crimea_River (May 17, 2016)

Too bad the B29 was so bad that they had to rent a Lancastershire to drop the F Bomb.


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## GrauGeist (May 17, 2016)

I'm actually surprised no one picked up anything wrong with this particular aircraft's description and information in that site's list. Read it carefully, guys:

*Douglas TBD Devastator – United States*

Despite initial pre-war status as an advanced fighter, by the bombing of Pearl Harbor, aircraft was considered obsolete
Alternative World War II aircraft was still in testing phase
Speed made it vulnerable to fighters on patrol
Entire fleet was almost wiped out in Battle of Midway


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## Airframes (May 17, 2016)

I'll say it again - it's so sad that people who can't even spell, have little concept of grammar, and absolutely no idea on how to construct a sentence, with punctuation (which they probably think is the latest pizza, imported form that well-known Italian city, Wigan !), can actually have the basic intelligence (and I use that term _very_ loosely !) to operate a computer and type and post such utter drivel !
But then, they were probably "taught" by the 'Monkey see, monkey do' system, the same way they were taught (but failed the practical) how to wipe their own Rs !!!


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## at6 (May 17, 2016)

They need to learn the designations used with Naval aircraft. TBD meant torpedo Bomber Douglas not an advanced fighter. While it is true that they were slow, vulnerable, and all squadrons at Midway were virtually wiped out, the distraction was enough to permit the dive bombing squadrons to defeat the Japanese Navy. Given enough time, these miscreant vermin will call Midway a victory for Japan. One has to admire the courage of the Devastator pilots.


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## GrauGeist (May 18, 2016)

at6 said:


> They need to learn the designations used with Naval aircraft. TBD meant torpedo Bomber Douglas not an advanced fighter. While it is true that they were slow, vulnerable, and all squadrons at Midway were virtually wiped out, the distraction was enough to permit the dive bombing squadrons to defeat the Japanese Navy. Given enough time, these miscreant vermin will call Midway a victory for Japan. One has to admire the courage of the Devastator pilots.


Bingo!

The TBD was never meant to be a fighter, let alone an "advanced fighter", whatever that means.

And the TBD wasn't in a "testing phase", it was a mature design, introduced into service by the USN in 1937 and already showing it's age by the time the Battle of Midway happened.

The TBF Avenger already mixing in with the Devestator's ranks and fought in several of the same battles with the TBD early on.


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## pbehn (May 18, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> Despite initial pre-war status as an advanced fighter, by the bombing of Pearl Harbor, aircraft was considered obsolete



It must be a short list of aircraft that were considered advanced in 1939 but were NOT considered obsolete by Dec 1941 (Pearl Harbour) or would not suffer badly in June 1942 (Midway). Any torpedo plane is vulnerable, the act of dropping a torpedo is doing exactly what you shouldnt do in the presence of enemy aircraft and defensive fire.


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## Wayne Little (May 18, 2016)

All I can say is...I had a good laugh...


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## at6 (May 18, 2016)

fubar57 said:


> It's a shame the B-29 never caught on..............


I know. They had to send them to museums where we can see them.


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## at6 (May 18, 2016)

That worst aircraft list is something else. While many of the short comings mentioned may not be without validation, they were cutting edge when developed, many of them serving through out the war. As for the ME-210, yes it had flaws which with a little work lead to the excellent ME-410.


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## fubar57 (May 18, 2016)

While the caption is correct the subtitle needs a little help...


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## GrauGeist (May 18, 2016)

You're absolutely right, Geo...I didn't know reindeer were in Russia...I thought their range was in the northern reaches of Scandinavia only!

Oh, you meant the Hawker jet bombers in the photo??


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## at6 (May 18, 2016)

Photo looks a little doctored.


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## stona (May 18, 2016)

at6 said:


> Photo looks a little doctored.


It has been busted before 
Cheers
Steve


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## Airframes (May 18, 2016)

Doctored ?!!!
Frankenstein would have been proud !


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## GrauGeist (May 28, 2016)

Sometimes people just make me mad as hell with their stupid.

IN this modern day and age, we have access to knowledge on a level never before seen in human history and yet...there is more ignorance than ever.

Case in point, in a historical photo essay posted on Facebook, one shows a little English girl clutching her dollie in a bombed London suburb. There were several comments and then out of the blue, this assclown named Björnarr (from Australia) posts this completely off-topic comment (with a photo of Dresden after the fire):


> *Björnarr* Dresden bombing, not a single German soldier in the city at the time!



And then several posts followed:


> *Grant* Dresden was a revenge bombing and uncalled for.
> 
> *Björnarr* Grant definitely and an absolute atrocity against the public of a nation.
> 
> ...



After that last post of his, I about lost it...I posted (with a GREAT DEAL of restraint) this:


> *David* Bjornarr - screw you and your revisionist crap.
> You say "learn history" and yet you have have NO idea what true history is!
> The United States did NOT start WWII, the United States entered the war TWO years after it had begun in Europe and 9 years after it had begun in Asia.
> By the way, ask any TRUE Australian how useless our Military is when the Imperial Japanese were breathing down Australia's neck...



But God Almighty I wish I could light that oxygen thief up.

The post is is here:

_View: https://www.facebook.com/its.wonderful.life2/photos/a.580678138633388.1073741944.424417070926163/580678358633366/?type=3&theater_


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 28, 2016)

lol

People just keep getting more and more dumb.


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## GrauGeist (May 28, 2016)

and good ol' Bjorn had to make a (rather pathetic) comeback in that comment section, so I tossed this back at him:
_*David* Aww...so Bjorn likes to hurl insults but can't take the heat when he's called out for it.
So let's see, Germany invades:
Austria - March 12, 1939
Czechoslovakia - March 15, 1939
Poland - September 1, 1939
Luxembourg - May 10, 1940
Holland - May 10, 1940 
Belgium - May 10, 1940
France - May 14, 1940
Russia - June 22, 1941
London was bombed when?
From September 7, 1940 through March 27, 1945 (all bombers, V1 and V2 missions) 
Stalingrad was reduced to a wasteland when?
July 17, 1942 - February 2, 1943.
And Dresden was bombed when?
That would be February 13 - 15, 1945.
So it would appear that there may have been a reason why Dresden was bombed - because Germany started the damned war, Bjorn...
If that's too hard for you to understand, perhaps wrap a plastic bag tightly around your head so all of your stupid stops leaking out..._

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## fubar57 (May 28, 2016)

Very nice and to the point Dave. Unfortunately, those like Bjorn have their head so far up their a$$ and are so full of their own self importance that they can't see the truth so you have this happening...

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## GrauGeist (May 28, 2016)

fubar57 said:


> Very nice and to the point Dave. Unfortunately, those like Bjorn have their head so far up their a$$ and are so full of their own self importance that they can't see the truth so you have this happening...


You, Sir, have earned bacon for that GIF! 

And you have a good point...however, consider this:
*if* Bjorn runs to a history book to "prove" me wrong, he might accidentally see that the timeline is, indeed against his convictions.

And there may be at least one person in the crowd who sees the facts and learns something...


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## at6 (May 28, 2016)

Remove the this is not a toy warning from the plastic bags, give them to Butt Weenie and his friends, them tell them use them over their heads for deep diving.


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## mikewint (May 28, 2016)

War against the military is one thing war against civilians is another and "You hit me first" not a valid justification
From February 13 to February 15, 1945, during the final months of World War II, Allied forces bombed the historic city of Dresden. Dresden was neither important to German wartime production nor a major industrial center, and before the massive air raid of February 1945 it had not suffered a major Allied attack. By February 15, the city was a smoldering ruin and an unknown number of civilians—estimated at somewhere between 35,000 and 135,000–were dead.
An important aspect of the Allied air war against Germany involved what is known as “area” or “saturation” bombing. In area bombing, all enemy industry–not just war munitions–is targeted, and civilian portions of cities are obliterated along with troop areas. Before the advent of the atomic bomb, cities were most effectively destroyed through the use of incendiary bombs that caused unnaturally fierce fires in the enemy cities. Such attacks, Allied command reasoned, would ravage the German economy, break the morale of the German people and force an early surrender. The Allies never overtly admitted that they were engaged in saturation bombing; specific military targets were announced in relation to every attack. However, it was but a veneer. In the heat and anger of a World War few mourned the destruction of German cities that built the weapons and bred the soldiers that by 1945 had killed more than 10 million Allied soldiers and even more civilians.
Now, as Dave pointed out, Germany was indeed the first to employ area bombing tactics during its assault on Poland in September 1939. In 1940, during the Battle of Britain, the Luftwaffe failed to bring Britain to its knees by targeting London and other heavily populated areas with area bombing attacks. One cannot deny that the Royal Air Force was avenging the bombings of London and Coventry in 1942 when it launched the first of many saturation bombing attacks against Germany. In 1944, Hitler named the world’s first long-range offensive missile V-1, after “vergeltung,” the German word for “vengeance”. The “V” weapons were an expression of his desire to repay Britain for its devastating bombardment of Germany.
Dresden was called “the Florence of the Elbe” and was regarded as one the world’s most beautiful cities for its architecture and museums. Dresden’s contribution to the war effort was minimal compared with other German cities. In February 1945, refugees fleeing the Russian advance in the east took refuge there. As Hitler had thrown much of his surviving forces into a defense of Berlin in the north, city defenses were minimal, and the Russians would have had little trouble capturing Dresden. It seemed an unlikely target for a major Allied air attack.
On the night of February 13, hundreds of RAF bombers descended on Dresden in two waves, dropping their bombs indiscriminately over the city. The city’s air defenses were so weak that only six Lancaster bombers were shot down. By the morning, some 800 British bombers had dropped more than 1,400 tons of high-explosive bombs and more than 1,100 tons of incendiaries on Dresden, creating a great firestorm that destroyed most of the city and killed numerous civilians. Later that day, as survivors made their way out of the smoldering city, more than 300 U.S. bombers began bombing Dresden’s railways, bridges and transportation facilities, killing thousands more. On February 15, another 200 U.S. bombers continued their assault on the city’s infrastructure. All told, the bombers of the U.S. Eighth Air Force dropped more than 950 tons of high-explosive bombs and more than 290 tons of incendiaries on Dresden. Later, the Eighth Air Force would drop 2,800 more tons of bombs on Dresden in three other attacks before the war’s end.
Because there were an unknown number of refugees in Dresden at the time of the Allied attack, it is impossible to know exactly how many civilians perished. After the war, investigators from various countries, and with varying political motives, calculated the number of civilians killed to be as little as 8,000 to more than 200,000. Estimates today range from 35,000 to 135,000. Looking at photographs of Dresden after the attack, in which the few buildings still standing are completely gutted, it seems improbable that only 135,000 of the million or so people in Dresden at the time were killed. Cellars and other shelters would have been meager protection against a firestorm that blew poisonous air heated to hundreds of degrees Fahrenheit across the city at hurricane-like speeds.






American author Kurt Vonnegut, was a prisoner of war in Dresden during the Allied attack and tackled the controversial event in his book “Slaughterhouse-Five”

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## Old Wizard (May 28, 2016)

They reaped what they sowed.


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## Shinpachi (May 29, 2016)

So, they never excuse.
I respect them


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## Elmas (May 29, 2016)

mikewint said:


> Chris, to rephrase: Hard for me to stay apolitical... Me mouth has got me into more trouble than any other organ.
> 
> *Dontopedalogy
> A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls*.
> ...



*Aluminium wil not have any use in modern aeroplanes.*
R. Petit, How to build an aeroplane, 1910.


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## Shortround6 (May 29, 2016)

An indication of the difficulty of predicting the future. The aluminum alloy/s of 1910 having about the strength of solidified dirt/ dried mud. That changed considerably in just a few years and the 20s and 30s saw tremendous development of aluminum alloys.


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## mikewint (May 29, 2016)

Old Wizard said:


> They reaped what they sowed.



Let's be totally clear here, the German government and certain military units, which by the by, were not all Germans committed truly horrendous crimes against humanity. The Luftwaffe did indeed begin the bombing of cities and civilian targets like hospitals in their attacks on Poland and Rotterdam to name just two.
As for Britain, it was a different story. 
Hermann Göring's general order, issued on 30 June 1940, stated:
*The war against England is to be restricted to destructive attacks against industry and air force targets which have weak defensive forces. ... The most thorough study of the target concerned, that is vital points of the target, is a pre-requisite for success. It is also stressed that every effort should be made to avoid unnecessary loss of life amongst the civilian population.*
Hoping that the British would negotiate for peace, Hitler explicitly prohibited attacks on London and against civilians. Any airmen who, intentionally or unintentionally, violated this order were punished. Hitler's No. 17 Directive, issued 1 August 1940, established the conduct of war against Britain and specifically forbade the Luftwaffe from conducting terror raids.
On 24 August, several off-course German bombers accidentally bombed central areas of London. The next day, the RAF bombed Berlin for the first time, targeting Tempelhof airfield and the Siemens factories in Siemenstadt. This infuriated Hitler and he ordered that the 'night piracy of the British' be countered by a concentrated night offensive against the island, and especially London. 
Hitler announced that:
*The other night the English had bombed Berlin. So be it. But this is a game at which two can play. When the British Air Force drops 2000 or 3000 or 4000 kg of bombs, then we will drop 150,000, 180,000, 230,000, 300,000, 400,000 kg on a single night. When they declare they will attack our cities in great measure, we will eradicate their cities. The hour will come when one of us will break – and it will not be National Socialist Germany!*
And the Blitz begins.
Now: 
*Recompense to no man evil for evil.* *Provide things honest in the sight of all men. * Attempting to justify an action against another because that other did take or would take the same action is logically fallacious. One crime does not cancel out another. 
Pray tell me Sirrah, from your high seat of Judgement, what atrocities were committed by this child and his mother?


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## bobbysocks (May 29, 2016)

the despicably unfortunate thing about war is it isn't confined to combatants and the politicians who made the decisions in the first place. more innocent people die than gun toting soldier. there is probably a very similar picture of a father ( and or mother) and child in London, Coventry, Warsaw, and a thousand other places.


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## bobbysocks (May 29, 2016)

fubar57 said:


> Very nice and to the point Dave. Unfortunately, those like Bjorn have their head so far up their a$$ and are so full of their own self importance that they can't see the truth so you have this happening...



what is even worse is the truth of what really happened over time will become so diluted with lies and misinformation that what will be known or taught will not even be close to actual events...


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## mikewint (May 29, 2016)

bobbysocks said:


> the despicably unfortunate thing about war is it isn't confined to combatants and the politicians who made the decisions in the first place. more innocent people die than gun toting soldier. there is probably a very similar picture of a father ( and or mother) and child in London, Coventry, Warsaw, and a thousand other places.



Bobby, could not agree more. But comments like "The Germans got what they deserved" really get my ire. In any conflict civilians are going to get killed but it should not be through deliberate targeting. In PC lingo "collateral damage". As I posted one heinous act does not excuse another. Nothing in Dresden was of military value.


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## bobbysocks (May 29, 2016)

I wouldn't go that far to say nothing of military value...the marshaling yard was a variable target..whether it needed that much attention...I wasn't there. but from the accounts I have read of us bomber pilots that is what their target was along with some industry that was co-located with residential.


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## mikewint (May 29, 2016)

Bobby, I should not speak in absolutes. All German cities had some military role. Dresden housed a Wehrmacht headquarters, several military hospitals, and perhaps 100 small factories located _in the cities suburbs. _Perhaps the biggest military target would have been the extensive rail system. The biggest BUT here IMHO is the *timing.*
The bombing of Dresden in February 1945 was not a militarily necessity — by then the war was definitely over. Hitler was already in his bunker playing out his final absurd fantasies. The British and Americans were at the German border after winning D-Day the previous summer, while the Russians under Zhukov and Konev were well inside eastern Germany and racing pell-mell to Berlin.
Dresden had no material role of any sort to play in the closing months of the war. So, what strategic purpose did burning its men, women, old people, and children serve? Churchill himself later wrote that “the destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing”.
Victor Gregg, a British para captured at Arnhem, was a prisoner of war in Dresden that night who was ordered to help with the clean up. In a 2014 BBC interview he recalled the hunt for survivors after the apocalyptic firestorm. In one incident, it took his team seven hours to get into a 1,000-person air-raid shelter in the Altstadt. Once inside, they found no survivors or corpses: just a green-brown liquid with bones sticking out of it. The cowering people had all melted. In areas further from the town centre there were legions of adults shriveled to three feet in length. Children under the age of three had simply been vaporized.
Chief of the Air Staff Charles Portal had calculated that bombing civilians could kill 900,000 in 18 months, seriously injure a million more, destroy six million homes, and “de-house” 25 million, creating a humanitarian crisis that, he believed, would speed up the war.
In November 1941 the Commander-in-Chief of Bomber Command said he had been intentionally bombing civilians for a year. “I mention this because, for a long time, the Government, for excellent reasons, has preferred the world to think that we still held some scruples and attacked only what the humanitarians are pleased to call Military Targets. I can assure you, gentlemen, that we tolerate no scruples.”
The post-war US Bombing Survey estimated that the effect of all allied city bombing probably depleted the German economy by no more than 2.7 per cent.


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## gumbyk (May 29, 2016)

mikewint said:


> Bobby, could not agree more. But comments like "The Germans got what they deserved" really get my ire. In any conflict civilians are going to get killed but it should not be through deliberate targeting. In PC lingo "collateral damage". As I posted one heinous act does not excuse another. Nothing in Dresden was of military value.



And how does this differ from Japan?
I don't condone the deliberate targeting of cities, in any situation, and see little difference between this and the targeting of Japanese cities. Unfortunately, everything and everyone became so mired down in the day-to-day business of killing during these wars that it took something as unethical as this to bring things to a point where peace was achievable.


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## pbehn (May 29, 2016)

My uncle was in Bomber Command and I amd sick of Dresden being used as a totem for a revisionist view of history.

Dresden was a beautiful city, but not particularly historic. My own village pre dates Dresden, no only was it mentioned in Domesday but the local Baron was an ancestor of George Washington, you can find "history" anywhere if you look for it. The idea that the people of Dresden were more worthy than those of Duisburg, Hamburg, Londons East end or those of Hull is a peculiar type of snobbery. 

from Wiki
During the Nazi era from 1933 to 1945, the Jewish community of Dresden was reduced from over 6,000 (7,100 people were persecuted as Jews) to 41.[12][13] Non-Jews were also targeted, and over 1,300 people were executed by the Nazis at the Münchner Platz, a courthouse in Dresden, including labour leaders, undesirables, resistance fighters and anyone caught listening to foreign radio broadcasts.[14] The bombing stopped prisoners who were busy digging a large hole into which an additional 4,000 prisoners were to be disposed of.[15]

Dresden was a German city it may have been pretty, it may have been involved in making nice china trinkets but it was certainly involved in WW2. 

Dresden cannot compare in any way to London as a centre of culture, architecture,science history or whatever by any measure, it does not even surpass my grand mothers village which was the site of a Roman Villa. Hitler and his nazis dedicated a huge part of Germanys military and scientific power to destroying London, that was what the war was about. Hitler was a complete mad fool. his ridiculous boasts which you quote show how idiotic he was. 

*The other night the English had bombed Berlin. So be it. But this is a game at which two can play. When the British Air Force drops 2000 or 3000 or 4000 kg of bombs, then we will drop 150,000, 180,000, 230,000, 300,000, 400,000 kg on a single night. *

He was threatening the UK with raids of a maximum of 400 tons of bombs per night, within a couple of years, not realising that his enemies would be launching raids dropping 2000 tons per night and later by day. Hitler did everything he could to destroy London, I do not apologise for the fact that he couldnt do it and I find the idea that people living in a beautiful place surrounded by statues museums and theatres are more worthy of my sympathy than those in a steel town or a mining village or port completely nauseating and typical of todays revisionist view of history.

P.S. not only was I born and brought up in a steel town in England I worked for many years in steel towns in Germany France Italy and Japan, the idea that being killed in a bombing raid in the shadow of a blast furnace is less significant than in the shadow of a Neo Gothic Cathedral makes me puke.


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## pbehn (May 29, 2016)

gumbyk said:


> And how does this differ from Japan?
> I don't condone the deliberate targeting of cities, in any situation, and see little difference between this and the targeting of Japanese cities. Unfortunately, everything and everyone became so mired down in the day-to-day business of killing during these wars that it took something as unethical as this to bring things to a point where peace was achievable.


It is quite simple. WW2 was won by fire bombing Tokyo and the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan but in Europe it was won by the precision bombing of oil targets.

Sorry guys, I will take a few weeks out, this revisionist BS really pushes my buttons.


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## fubar57 (May 29, 2016)

Why do I sense impending doom in this once funny thread?

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## Lucky13 (May 29, 2016)

fubar57 said:


> Why do I sense impending doom in this once funny thread?



You're nose twitching and the milk has gone off?


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## GrauGeist (May 29, 2016)

pbehn said:


> It is quite simple. WW2 was won by fire bombing Tokyo and the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan but in Europe it was won by the precision bombing of oil targets.
> 
> Sorry guys, I will take a few weeks out, this revisionist BS really pushes my buttons.


Don't let it get to you, as it's an uphill battle not only with WWII, but a wide range of historical topics.

By the way, the revisionist hot-button that is Dresden was actually started by Goebbels, who immediately pressed for media exposure citing that Dresden was a cultural center with no military value and 200,000 people were killed. From this point onward, Dresden has always been a rallying point for the revisionists and apologists, many times actually using Goebbel's press release verbatim. The actual death toll has been confirmed to be no more than 25,000 by several independant research efforts commissioned by Dresden's city council. This number also takes into account the last victims uncovered during construction in the 1960's.

Another thing that people keep overlooking, is that Dresden was a key transfer point for the retreating Wehrmacht and other military units streaming in from the collapsing eastern and southern front by way of rail and road.


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## GrauGeist (May 29, 2016)

Wow...are we back to the double post issue again?

By the way, Geo, there'll always be more interesting stuff from random people...

I'll go looking for more material after dinner


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## Lucky13 (May 29, 2016)

Echo?


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## GrauGeist (May 29, 2016)

Lucky13 said:


> Echo?


Echo?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 29, 2016)

How about everyone take a deep breath...


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## GrauGeist (May 30, 2016)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> How about everyone take a deep breath...


Will a Spaten (ok, actually several) and an aged Maduro do?

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## at6 (May 30, 2016)

Each one of us needs to cool down a bit. What happened ,happened. That's how it was and is. Some could second guess the dropping of the Atomic bombs, but then that action while killing many, may have saved millions of lives because there was no invasion of Japan.


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## Shinpachi (May 30, 2016)

So, that is excuse


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## at6 (May 30, 2016)

Shinpachi said:


> So, that is excuse


Shinpachi,
My teachers as a child were veterans from all theaters of WWII. Some were in Europe and others were in the Pacific.
I met some veterans who years later, still harbored so much hatred for the people of Japan that they wished that there had been enough A bombs to kill every one. Saw a few curse and walk away from check out lines in stores if they saw a person of Japanese descent behind the counter. What many of them experienced during the war caused them to lose sight of the humanity of the Nisei or any one of Japanese ancestry. Also, it must considered that if Japan had developed the bomb and an effective delivery system, the leaders of that time would used it against their perceived enemies.


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## Shortround6 (May 30, 2016)

You have to look at by what was known at the time. The Battle for Okinawa had finished on June 21,1945 after 82 days that saw more than 12,000 Americans killed and a further 50,000 wounded. More than 150,000 Japanese — many of them civilians — were killed during the battle. An invasion of Japan was estimated to cost hundreds of thousands of lives if not well over a million. Maybe that estimate was wrong but how much conventional bombing and use of incendiaries would be needed to reach the same effect or end point, that is surrender without invasion and how many Japanese would would have died of starvation and exposure over the winter had the war lasted into 1946?
Perhaps the Japanese were much closer to collapse and surrender than the allies thought in the beginning of August 1945 but that is with the benefit of what is known now.
I am sure there was a element of revenge in the decision but ending the war as soon as possible saved lives on both sides. If you want to call that an excuse then so be it. 
My father was with the 6th Marines on Okinawa and was slated to be involved in the Japanese invasion. He was with the occupying forces in Japan for a short period before going home. He never mentioned any hatred of the Japanese while I was growing up but then PFCs/corporals don't make policy either. 
If he had been killed during the Japanese invasion I wouldn't be here.


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## Shinpachi (May 30, 2016)

Thanks for your kind and polite comment my friend at6.
Following could be what your teachers did not tell you.

Dropping A-bombs, as well as other indiscriminate bombings by the B-29s, certainly weakened our military and economic power but it was not the main factor to end the war.

Hirohito finally decided his surrender *because Soviet Union joined the war*. A-bomb was a mere new type bomb for us and not almighty to control the situation.

I think that you don't have to be so hard to excuse or justify what your country did because such behavior often looks not only unnatural but insulting our victims even after 71 years. It's enough with R.I.P.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 30, 2016)

Shinpachi san, understand that there is a strong revisionist movement to demonize the use of the atomic bombs without understanding or knowing what let up to it's use; here in the US and in various parts of Europe, a reason why many Americans are so zealous about this subject and are ready to defend it with great ferocity. I had family who were on their way to Japan when the bomb was dropped, there were other family members who were about to be recalled to participate in the continued fighting (that many thought would go well into 1946). To many American families, the atomic bombings were a blessing, bringing loved ones homes from a long and brutal war. Although there was a lot of harbored anonymity and hatred towards the Japanese, I believe the majority of the American people eventually recognized the horror of those two bombs and in later years and the suffering of those who survived.

You say that "Hirohito finally decided to surrender *because Soviet Union joined the war*. A-bomb was a mere new type bomb for us and not almighty to control the situation." I could possibly agree with that. I could also believe that he considered the further atomic bombings of other Japanese cities, and let's not forget General Le May who would of been more than happy to incinerate every Japanese city as he did Tokyo - with the continued loss of lives on both sides.

So with this said, I end this with R.I.P.


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## at6 (May 30, 2016)

Not only were there Japanese casualties, there were POWs and foreign laborers lost in the bombings. This was kept secret by the U. S. government for 35 years. May they all R.I.P.


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## Crimea_River (May 30, 2016)

I think the A-bomb will drop on this thread soon.

Getting completely off topic and discussing issues that have been debated ad nauseum elsewhere.


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## GrauGeist (May 31, 2016)

I understand that certain topics can be a "hot-button" and we, of all people know the harsh realities of historical fact, but we need to keep in mind the spirit of this thread, and that's history through the eyes of people who have no real grasp of history.

That being said, there is a Russian mathematician by the name of Anatoly Fomenko who claims that the Roman Empire never existed. In his writings, he claims that such works by Homer, Pliny, Cicero and such were the fabrications of Benedictine Monks in the middle ages and goes on to say that western civilization actually dates to A.D. 800.

Here are some of his claims:
- Archaeological dating, dendrochronological dating, paleographical dating, numismatic dating, carbon dating, and other methods of dating of ancient sources and artifacts known today are erroneous, non-exact or dependent on traditional chronology.

- No single document in existence can be reliably dated earlier than the 11th century. Most "ancient" artifacts may find other than consensual explanation.

- Histories of Ancient Rome, Greece and Egypt were crafted during the Renaissance by humanists and clergy - mostly on the basis of documents of their own making.

- The Old Testament represents a rendition of events of the 14th to 16th centuries AD in Europe and Byzantium, containing "prophecies" about "future" events related in the New Testament, a rendition of events of AD 1152 to 1185.

- The history of religions runs as follows: the pre-Christian period (before the 11th century and the birth of Jesus), Bacchic Christianity (11th and 12th centuries, before and after the life of Jesus), Christianity (12th to 16th centuries) and its subsequent mutations into Orthodox Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, and Islam.

- The Almagest of Claudius Ptolemy, traditionally dated to around AD 150 and considered the cornerstone of classical astronomy, was compiled in 16th and 17th centuries from astronomical data of the 9th to 16th centuries.

- All major inventions like powder and guns, paper and print occurred in Europe in the period between the 10th and the 16th centuries.

- Ancient Roman and Greek statues, showing perfect command of the human anatomy, are fakes crafted in the Renaissance, when artists attained such command for the first time.

- There was no such thing as the Tartar and Mongol invasion followed by over two centuries of yoke and slavery, because the so-called "Tartars and Mongols" were the actual ancestors of the modern Russians, living in a bilingual state with Turkic spoken as freely as Russian. So, Russia and Turkey once formed parts of the same empire. This ancient Russian state was governed by a double structure of civil and military authorities and the hordes were actually professional armies with a tradition of lifelong conscription (the recruitment being the so-called "blood tax"). The Mongol "invasions" were punitive operations against the regions of the empire that attempted tax evasion. Tamerlane was probably a Russian warlord.

- Official Russian history is a blatant forgery concocted by a host of German scholars brought to Russia to legitimize the usurping Romanov dynasty (1613–1917).

There have been other "scholars" that dwell on the fringe of mainstream thinking that have tried to push similar theories in the past, but this Fomenko guy has published writings titled "New Chronology" where he goes on to "explain" all of this in great detail and seems to be gathering quite a following. 

And kids, THIS is a perfect example of why you *NEVER* sniff model glue...

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 31, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> I understand that certain topics can be a "hot-button" and we, of all people know the harsh realities of historical fact, but we need to keep in mind the spirit of this thread, and that's history through the eyes of people who have no real grasp of history.
> 
> That being said, there is a Russian mathematician by the name of Anatoly Fomenko who claims that the Roman Empire never existed. In his writings, he claims that such works by Homer, Pliny, Cicero and such were the fabrications of Benedictine Monks in the middle ages and goes on to say that western civilization actually dates to A.D. 800.
> 
> ...



I work with quite a few people who believe just that. They the earth is only 6000 years old, carbon dating is a lie made up by scientists and that humans and dinosaurs walked the earth together.

Hell we have a very famous and newsworthy surgeon in this country who believes the very same things, as well as that the great pyramids are really grain silos not tombs...

The dumb walk the earth freely, and I think that people that share our Russian friends beliefs are much more common than we think...

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## at6 (May 31, 2016)

Oh come on now. We all know that the Earth is flat, there were no dinosaurs [models of bones made oversized],and Neanderthals invented penicillin 2500 years ago.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 31, 2016)

at6 said:


> Oh come on now. We all know that the Earth is flat, there were no dinosaurs [models of bones made oversized],and Neanderthals invented penicillin 2500 years ago.



Don't laugh, a lot of people here in the US believe it...


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## GrauGeist (May 31, 2016)

I am still trying to figure out how a mathematician is qualified to write a detailed account of the rise of Western civilization...

This makes as much sense as taking my camera to a gunsmith for repairs


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## fubar57 (May 31, 2016)



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## mikewint (May 31, 2016)

The problem with all of the above is that any TRUE scientist active in any of the germain fields is forced to admit that all of the above *is possible.* I know that it is possible to toss a coin 1000 time and obtain 1000 heads. The random motion of air molecules means that it is possible for every molecule to move to the corner of the room leaving me in a total vacuum. The very nature of scientific truth is that it must be true in all places and all times. When I release a brick from my hand I don't KNOW that it will fall until I test it and if it does fall that does not mean it will fall the next time or in a different place (Andromeda Galaxy). A scientist cannot debate a creationist and win.
I don't KNOW that dinos actually existed any more than I KNOW that the sun will rise tomorrow. I *believe* they did and I *believe* it will.
P.S. I really believe in the brick falling which is why I duck!


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## GrauGeist (May 31, 2016)

fubar57 said:


> View attachment 344869


Oh Lord have mercy...

I must have this!!!


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## fubar57 (May 31, 2016)

It was designed and used for law enforcers for surveillance from '54-56

http://io9.gizmodo.com/pistol-cams-the-mammoth-camera-and-other-odd-vintage-508528801


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## mikewint (May 31, 2016)

I can see Redding, Calif newspaper headlines now: MAN SHOT DEAD BY SWAT TEAMS AFTER POINTING GUN WHICH LATER PROVED TO BE A CAMERA


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## GrauGeist (May 31, 2016)

mikewint said:


> I can see Redding, Calif newspaper headlines now: MAN SHOT DEAD BY SWAT TEAMS AFTER POINTING GUN WHICH LATER PROVED TO BE A CAMERA


lol Mike, fortunately, I'm not that stupid! 

I know I'm not the brightest light on the Christmas Tree, but I certainly know better than to spook LEOs by sudden movement, pointing things or failing to follow simple commands! 

But I still must have that camera...I am drawn to it like a moth to a flame...


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## mikewint (May 31, 2016)

Dave the implied stupidity was not yours.
Recall the post where SWAT was called out because a man was walking down the street with a tripod


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## Graeme (Jun 2, 2016)

They're not just on the internet Dave...


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## fubar57 (Jun 2, 2016)

mikewint said:


> Dave the implied stupidity was not yours.
> Recall the post where SWAT was called out because a man was walking down the street with a tripod

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## mikewint (Jun 2, 2016)

BALTIMORE (WJZ)—School scare. A Baltimore City school was placed on lockdown after a report with a person with a gun on campus. It’s the second school lockdown in our area just this week.
KIPP Harmony Academy and KIPP Ujima Village Academy were placed on lockdown around 9 a.m. Thursday after students saw what they thought was a man with a gun.
SWAT teams rushed into KIPP Academy in Northwest Baltimore.
Panicked parents plead for answers.
“There was a stranger in the building. They don’t know who it was,” one mother said.
“Everything is not OK because the kids are still in there,” another mother said.
After four hours on lockdown, students were evacuated to a nearby high school.
*Investigators found a University of Maryland journalism student was carrying a camera tripod that was mistaken for a gun.*
“He was there with permission and it was just a misidentification by the kids,” said police commissioner Anthony Batts.
The lockdown at KIPP comes on the heels of another school scare.
That one was at Stevenson University. The Owings Mills campus was locked down for more than two hours Monday after someone reported a man with a gun.
Investigators say two students hunting ducks with a pellet gun caused that incident.


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 2, 2016)

Well having dealt with an angry ex armed with a camera tripod, they can be a lethal weapon!


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## GrauGeist (Jun 2, 2016)

mikewint said:


> Dave the implied stupidity was not yours.
> Recall the post where SWAT was called out because a man was walking down the street with a tripod


lol Mike, no offense taken, of course.

But I certainly know what you're talking about!


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## GrauGeist (Jun 2, 2016)

Graeme said:


> They're not just on the internet Dave...
> 
> View attachment 344975


I agree, Graeme, they're everywhere!!

(and thanks for that laugh!)


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## mikewint (Jun 2, 2016)

Wednesday, March 16, 2016

EAST FARMINGDALE, Long Island (WABC) -- A Long Island college that went on alert over a report of a gun on campus says the weapon turned out to be a light saber.
Students and staff members at Farmingdale State College on Long Island were told to shelter in place Wednesday while police investigated a report that someone was assembling a rifle in a school parking lot.
Police said the call came in at about 9:40 a.m. The man was located just off campus and police said he did not have a weapon -- only the light saber.
College spokeswoman Kathryn Coley says the rifle was actually a "Star Wars" toy.
The man was not arrested or charged in the incident.


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## Gnomey (Jun 4, 2016)

Oh dear...


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## GrauGeist (Jun 25, 2016)

You guys know how I am regarding revisionism and we just had a local Congressman support a bill for Tule Lake internment camp based on skewed facts.

Here's the article:
*WASHINGTON — Congressman Doug LaMalfa and a resident of Modoc County both told a House subcommittee Thursday that they support a bill to create a separate and distinct national historic site for a World War II internment camp for Japanese Americans.

The Richvale Republican noted that the 3,700-acre site, adjacent to the Tulelake Airport, is currently a unit of the Valor in the Pacific National Monument, created in 2008, which is otherwise made up of eight Pacific battlefields.

The Tule Lake internment camp was a maximum security facility "where American citizens were held in squalid housing, given inadequate food and medical care and forced to work in unsafe conditions," LaMalfa said

"The events at Tule Lake should be remembered not as valorous, but as a warning that all Americans must respect one another and that the Constitution applies to all citizens during peace and war," La Malfa said.

"Valor was certainly exhibited at Tule Lake, not by soldiers but by the Japanese Americans who maintained their dignity under appalling conditions," he added.

Nick S. Macy, owner of Macy's Flying Service, which operates from the Tulelake Airport, told the Natural Resources subcommittee that he was raised in an internment camp barracks removed and relocated from the original site. He said the residents of the area feel that 940 acres of the site around an existing jail "is sufficient to establish a lesson in history that the wrongs done are never repeated."

National Park Service Associate Director of Workforce and Inclusion Michael Reynolds testified that the site was the largest of 10 sites that interned first-generation Japanese Americans, known as Nikkei, and operated from May 1942 to March 1946. German and Italian prisoners of war were also housed there.

Reynolds said meetings held to discuss the site revealed strong public opinion that the internment site's association with Valor in the Pacific was both "inappropriate, and even offensive."*

Now first off, this wasn't a site like Manzanar, where Japanese-American families were relocated, this was a maximum security internment center for Japanese citizens who were loyal to the Emperor and/or had been caught in acts of sabatoge. After the war, the bulk of them were deported to Japan.

Also, there were no Germans or Italians there.

The allegations of poor food, poor medical and poor housing is a flat out fabrication.

The allegations of forced labor is also false, as this was a maximum security facility...no one was allowed out to work.

Add to that, the occasional paperwork error that got a Japanese who was loyal to the U.S. accidently mixed in with the incorrigibles which ended up in that Japanese person being killed by the inmates.

And finally, the Japanese Americans were called Nissei, not Nikkei - dumbasses can't even get that right...

So this just flat-out pisses me off that everyone is so hell-bent on twisting history around.


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## Wayne Little (Jun 25, 2016)

Wow, people sure are paranoid.....


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## GrauGeist (Jul 2, 2016)

I have come to find that the Vintage News posts seem to attract the most "interesting" conversations regarding WWII history!






In this case, they posted about a Bf109E that was discovered largely intact and ended up at the Planes of Fame museum in Chino, California. While the article was actually informative, it was the comments where all the action was! 

*Ken* Goering always said. We could have won the battle of Britain if we had Spifires

*Paul* No. He didn't.

*Ken* Yes he did

*Terry* What's a spifire?

*Colin* Goering asked his pilots what they needed to win the Battle of Britain? Squadrons of Spitfires, they replied. Of course this was long before the yanks turned up

*Brian* Ya the yanks were accustomed to sitting on the sidelines and watching till the tide turned for their friends before joining.

*David* It wasn't our war or our business. I often wonder when or if we would have jumped in if Herr Hitler wouldn't have declared war on the U.S. first. I hate to hear any bad mouthing from the Brits because we bent over backwards to keep them fed and from being "annexed". They are our good mate's and have decent soldier's. I have worked with them and helped keep a few alive in my Combat Support Hospital in Kuwait City after the war.Out.

*Robert* Fact is they came dangerously close to winning the battle had Hitler not stupidly ordered the blitz instead of keep destroying the RAF and bombing port facilities.

*Pete* Robert totally true, we were so close to losing our ability to fight back that his change of tactics, though bad for civillians, actually helped the raf rebuild.

*Stephen* Let's all have a reality check. If the war in the East had not come about, and then won by the Soviets , the Brits would be eating Schnitzel . They also might still be in the Euros.........both in football and Financially

*Mark* Really Stephen , you been watching to much Hollywood stuff. Britain was the first to inflict a defeat on the nazi machine with help from, poles, free french, czech, belgian and commonwealth volunteers. They are the reason we're not eating schnitzel. Hitler had given up his invasion idea for the UK and at the time was in cahoots with stalin. Learn a bit of history before making daft comments. As for the football I couldn't care less, & I did vote out

*Ken* Don't believe the American bullsh*t. Canadians are the ones who won the battles in Sicily and Italy. Ortona, Montecasino and others. Canadians had to step aside and let the Yanks take the credit. My father was there. Commonwealth forces also liberated Holland and Belgium. What exactly did the Americans do? Battle of the Bulge? Almost got their asses kicked. Don't believe Hollywood.

*Matthew* First off, the Polish won the battle of Monte Casino. Second, us Americans were supplying all of the other allied countries with war materials until we entered the war.

*Daniel* Colin British fighters could run rings around America fighters. Russians were better than both.

*Ken* So you are saying the Stormavic was better than the Spitfire or Mustang? C'mon now. Most russian planes were given to them by the Brits and Americans anyway. The only way the Russians beat the Germans was unlimited numbers of tanks and planes. German equipment and men were not prepared for the Russian winter. If Hitler hadn't spread himself so thin all of Europe and England would be speaking German now. That's a fact.

*Clive* Spitfire will be the name people remember not the mustang

*Vincent* The name and comparison is irrelevant. We were on the same side fighting a common enemy.

*Dave* Vincent yes it is relevant! Mustang was much better.

*Terry* Clive has a point, the Mustang was a great bomber escort (especially when using the Merlin from a Spitfire)....
But that was about it. Whereas I know that protecting bombers was a incredibly important task, planes like the Spitfire were the ones on the, for lack of better words, ariel front line,

*Pete* Up till the introduction of the merlin engine, the mustang was mediocre at best and that is fact from any source you choose. One she git the merlin, then yes, absolutely fantastic, but the Spitfire,for poise, beauty and just plain fantastic ability holds the hearts of way too many people. Especially me.

*Clive* The Mustang was a great machine it had the range to escort the bombers but for me it's the Spitfire

*Dean* Any the Jug was the first true 'Berlin' escort fighter.

*Tai* Both beautiful aircraft and Alot of good men died in them.

*Allen* Well it is 70 years later and people still remember both.

*Phil* The spitfire and hurricane held the skies until the arrival of the mustang,without the spitfire and hurricane Britain would have been brought to its knees,the arrival of the P47's and P51's signalled the death of the Luftwaffe and the third reich ,but an aircraft is nothing without the man behind the controls, lest we forget

*Steven* The first jet shot down in aerial combat was a 262, by US P51 Mustang, piloted by an African American.

*Colin* When they finally showed up

*Jay* dont let facts get in the way of Hollywood:Credit for the first Me 262 be brought down in combat belong to Maj Joseph Myers and 2Lt Manford Crory of the P-47D-equipped 78th Fighter Group, who manoeuvred a 1./KG 51 machine into the ground west of Brussels on August 28, 1944. This occurred with a shot being fired by both sides. A similar thing occurred on October 2, 1944 when P-47D pilot 1Lt Valmore Beaudrault of the 356th Fighter Group ran an Me 262 out of fuel in a low-level pursuit into the ground near Dusseldorf. Astonishingly, the pilot of the jet on both occasions was Oberfeldwebel Hieronymous Lauer who survived both encounters.

The credit for the first Me 262 to be shot down by gunfire, however, belongs to five pilots from 401 Squadron RCAF. On October 5th, while on a high patrol near the Arnhem-Nijmegen area twelve Spitfire Mk IXs began their patrol at 1353 hrs. What happened next is briefly described in No 126 Wing’s Summary of Operations for that day:

*Pete* Yeah, Hollywood, if that guy had been really hit by fire from a 262 he'd have been in pieces as the 262 carried 4 cannon (erm explosive, anyone?)

*Mark* Hollywood got alot to answer for


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## Old Wizard (Jul 2, 2016)




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## at6 (Jul 2, 2016)

I dunno guys. After reading the erroneous crap being put forth by unwashed, uneducated di*kheads, I'm almost ready to ask who gives a flying f*#k any more? Even the "educated elite" have sh!t for brains when Nisei become Nikkei. As a teenager, I new some Nisei farmers here in the valley who had been sent to internment camps. One such staging area for them was our local county fairgrounds. Though they never discussed it much, I found them to be dignified and gentle caring people.


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## Marcel (Jul 3, 2016)

I like this part 


> *Terry* What's a spifire?



Obviously Terry only knows the wildcat.. Or was it the Marlet?

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## GrauGeist (Jul 3, 2016)

Marcel said:


> I like this part
> 
> 
> Obviously Terry only knows the wildcat.. Or was it the Marlet?


You sir, have earned bacon for that!!

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## stona (Jul 4, 2016)

The Spitfire was a second rate, slow, 'sports car' produced in Britain from the the early sixties until far too late 
Cheers
Steve

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## Gnomey (Jul 4, 2016)




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## Thumpalumpacus (Jun 13, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> What blows me away, is that these same people have a super-computer in their pockets, that they call, text and surf the internet on.
> 
> 50 years ago, a computer of comparable power would have filled a building and cost well over 3 million dollars and yet, they think that mankind is so helpless, that we couldn't put a man into space, let alone on the moon.
> 
> Every waking moment of their ordinary day, they use technology that was unthinkable a little over 100 years ago...



I know I'm replying to an old post.

It cracks me up how many people argue against science on an internet that requires satellite relays for transmission, digital processing to convert keystrokes to and from binary, and quantum mechanics for their monitor to display the results.

As for the Moon landings, we were hot in the Cold War. If we Americans had tried to fake it, the Soviets would have called us out then and there ... but they didn't.

I think the real problem with us Americans is that so many of us take this stuff for granted that we don't stop to think about the work it took to get us here. Pearls before swine, indeed. Kids are so busy _on_ their phones that they don't stop to ask how those phones came about at all.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Jun 13, 2021)

bobbysocks said:


> Salomon had 700 porcupines.....LMAO



Obviously false. Rape is unknown amongst porcupines.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Jun 13, 2021)

Airframes said:


> But then, they were probably "taught" by the 'Monkey see, monkey do' system, the same way they were taught (but failed the practical) how to wipe their own Rs !!!



They miscount the Rs here in America, there's not three, but four: Readin', 'Ritin', 'Rithmetic ... and Rote. 

Rote learning, teaching facts, without teaching integration, is great for producing drones, but not so hot for producing thinkers. But we don't want thinkers. We want workers.

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## at6 (Jun 14, 2021)

Once again like the Phoenix, one rises from the ashes.

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## GrauGeist (Jun 14, 2021)

If any of you guys are on Facebook, check out any post by the Smithsonian.
If you woukd expect scholarly discussion in the comments, you would be dead-wrong.

Instead, you'll find the lowest common denominator of humanity gathered in one spot, blathering stupidity on a scale that defies the imagination...

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## Thumpalumpacus (Jun 14, 2021)

I avoid FB like the plague that it is. I know how to get in touch with them I want to keep touch with, and they know the same.

FB is almost like the file for people I _don't_ want to stay in touch with. Avoiding that site is a great twitfilter.

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## ARTESH (Jun 14, 2021)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> I avoid FB like the plague that it is. I know how to get in touch with them I want to keep touch with, and they know the same.
> 
> FB is almost like the file for people I _don't_ want to stay in touch with. Avoiding that site is a great twitfilter.



I did same as you, Not only FB, but also Instagram, Telegram, and almost any other site / app! I even sold previous Smartphone and bought a simple one!!!

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## Marcel (Jun 14, 2021)

Yeah, after all rubbish that was put on FB last year about the covid stuff, I found that it takes way too much time to silence everybody that post that sh!t. So now I hardly log in anymore. Still need to keep my account for the band's FB page though. For the rest I just use the Facebook messenger app occasionally.

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## at6 (Jun 14, 2021)

I have absolutely no use for Fartbook or it's cousins.

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## GrauGeist (Jun 14, 2021)

I use FB to stay in touch with friends and use the old "developer" portal, so no ads and such.
As far as political and/or pseudo-science crap, I just scroll past.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 15, 2021)

I use it too, because it unfortunately is the best way to stay in touch constantly with the people I care about literally spread out all over the world


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## GrauGeist (Mar 5, 2022)

I need to dust this thread off in order to pay homage to an incredibly misinformed person encountered on the interwebs.

Archaeology Magazine posts great articles on Facebook and *usually* has a well informed following with great replies to their posts (unlike Smithsonian Mag, who's posts attract idiots like moths to a porch light).

The artical AM posted, was about the Olive Groves of Zita, which drove a rich economy until the vast Olive orchards were cut down by the Romans to fuel iron smelters.

Ok, so there were some good responses to the article until "J Elle Cox" showed up and gave us gems like this:
"*J Elle Cox*
Bruce E Tutcher Rome never existed in the west. It's a fantasy made up by the 'Slava Ukraini' fascists to give themselves history that never existed. All ancient history of civilization comes from Asia, Africa, the Middle East and the Steppe. Europe was backwater uncivilized peeps, historically, and the fascist policies they're promoting mow will put them back in the same place, imo. If you've never read the honest Roman Catholic priest/father admitting that no one ever spoke Latin or wrote it to actually communicate with people, then it's a great topic yo inform yourself about. 'Rome' is Disneyland, imo."

To get a better idea of where she's coming from, she 100% serious and even believes California belongs to Russia, because they "discovered it in 1812".
Never mind that the Spaniards were already here in California for 200 years...

By the way, here's Archaeology Magazine's article (on their website), if anyone's interested:






Oliveopolis - Archaeology Magazine







www.archaeology.org

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## at6 (Mar 5, 2022)

No need for me to read the article. I would probably pop a gasket. If there is another thing that I can't brook, it is pseudo intellectuals writing such drivel.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 5, 2022)

at6 said:


> No need for me to read the article. I would probably pop a gasket. If there is another thing that I can't brook, it is pseudo intellectuals writing such drivel.


The article linked, is to Archaeology Magazine's site with the history of ancient Zita under Phoenician and Roman rule.

I didn't link to the idiot on fapbook.

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## at6 (Mar 5, 2022)

Then I misunderstood Dave. My bad.


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## GrauGeist (Mar 5, 2022)

at6 said:


> Then I misunderstood Dave. My bad.


no problem, mister - alles gute


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## at6 (Mar 6, 2022)

Alle ist sehr gut. My German is totally rusty as you can tell.


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## SaparotRob (Mar 6, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> I need to dust this thread off in order to pay homage to an incredibly misinformed person encountered on the interwebs.
> 
> Archaeology Magazine posts great articles on Facebook and *usually* has a well informed following with great replies to their posts (unlike Smithsonian Mag, who's posts attract idiots like moths to a porch light).
> 
> ...


Nil illegitimus carborundum.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 6, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> Nil illegitimus carborundum.


Nope, you can't use Latin, it was made up by the fascist Ukranians when they invented the myth of Rome. It doesn't actually exist.

Remember?

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## Greg Boeser (Mar 6, 2022)

I have encountered this school of philosophy before. I don't remember all the details, except it was a Russian pushing the idea that the Slavs were God's chosen people, Russia was the center of civilization and everything we believed about history was "consentual history". In other words a made up fable to prop up the myth of Western Civilization.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 6, 2022)

Greg Boeser said:


> I have encountered this school of philosophy before. I don't remember all the details, except it was a Russian pushing the idea that the Slavs were God's chosen people, Russia was the center of civilization and everything we believed about history was "consentual history". In other words a made up fable to prop up the myth of Western Civilization.


I recall seing that before.

And it was (if I remember right) a Soviet era math professor who started all this idiocy.

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## at6 (Mar 6, 2022)

Find all Russian nationals who have visas and deport them all.


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## Marcel (Mar 6, 2022)

I know quite a few Russians who are great guys. Let’s not being dragged into a hate campaign.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 6, 2022)

Marcel said:


> I know quite a few Russians who are great guys. Let’s not being dragged into a hate campaign.



Generalizing people is great unless its your people that are being generalized. Of course its easy to generalize everyone, and usually those doing the generalizing are throwing rocks in glass houses.

I’ve seen this in my own country for the last 8 years.

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## SaparotRob (Mar 6, 2022)

The average Russian doesn’t have the same access to information that we take for granted. Whether it’s willful ignorance or keeping your head down, I don’t know. I suspect it’s both.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 6, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> The average Russian doesn’t have the same access to information that we take for granted. Whether it’s willful ignorance or keeping your head down, I don’t know. I suspect it’s both.



Easy for people to forget this.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 6, 2022)

at6 said:


> Find all Russian nationals who have visas and deport them all.


The problem in this case, is that the female posting that nonsense, is an American living in Las Vegas.

So there is zero excuses for her lack of education stupidity...

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## ARTESH (Mar 6, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> "BET Rome never existed in the west. It's a fantasy made up by the 'Slava Ukraini' fascists."


Well, actually she lost the BET! Where is my money???

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## GrauGeist (Mar 6, 2022)

ARTESH said:


> Well, actually she lost the BET! Where is my money???


Get in line, my friend!

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## Thumpalumpacus (Mar 6, 2022)

at6 said:


> Find all Russian nationals who have visas and deport them all.



Better yet, let's put them in internment camps like we did the Japanese!

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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 6, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> The average Russian doesn’t have the same access to information that we take for granted. Whether it’s willful ignorance or keeping your head down, I don’t know. I suspect it’s both.


Facebook has been blocked in Russia, Twitter has been limited, the only way Russians are receiving news from the west is through short wave BBC Brings Back Shortwave Radio Broadcasts in Russia

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## at6 (Mar 6, 2022)

No don't put anyone in [Internment] Concentration camps.


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## SaparotRob (Mar 6, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Better yet, let's put them in internment camps like we did the Japanese!
> View attachment 660381


I know where you are coming from. I wanted to give you an "agree" in the same sarcastic vein but we know not all would get it.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 6, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> I know where you are coming from. I wanted to give you an "agree" in the same sarcastic vein but we know not all would get it.



You and me both… lol

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## Thumpalumpacus (Mar 6, 2022)

at6 said:


> No don't put anyone in [Internment] Concentration camps.



I was being sarcastic, but if we're going to draw a conclusion from, and hopefully to, this sidebar, I'd prefer it be formulated _Don't practice collective guilt, or judge people solely by their ethnic background._ Just me.



SaparotRob said:


> I know where you are coming from. I wanted to give you an "agree" in the same sarcastic vein but we know not all would get it.



I'm glad you took it as it was intended, I was a little worried it might be misconstrued.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Mar 6, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Facebook has been blocked in Russia [...][/URL]



In this instance Putin's right, for the wrong reasons, to be sure, lol.

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## SaparotRob (Mar 6, 2022)

We should all agree with Thumpalumpacus. Don't practice collective guilt or judge people by their ethnic background. Just Thumpalumpacus.

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## SaparotRob (Mar 6, 2022)

🤣


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## Thumpalumpacus (Mar 6, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> We should all agree with Thumpalumpacus. Don't practice collective guilt or judge people by their ethnic background. Just Thumpalumpacus.

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## buffnut453 (Mar 6, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> I was being sarcastic, but if we're going to draw a conclusion from, and hopefully to, this sidebar, I'd prefer it be formulated _Don't practice collective guilt, or judge people solely by their ethnic background._ Just me.



The wisdom of Sgt Buster Kilrain from the movie "Gettysburg" springs to mind, "Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take _men_ ... one at a time."

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## Gnomey (Mar 6, 2022)

Well that’s an interesting view on history…


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## GrauGeist (Mar 6, 2022)

Gnomey said:


> Well that’s an interesting view on history…


Yep - and I bet that woman has never been to Europe, let alone walked the streets of Herculaneum, seen the buildings in Switzerland and France or even visited Roman sites in England.

The Roman Empire was very real...


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## Greg Boeser (Mar 6, 2022)

I though the "Myth of Rome" was invented in the Middle Ages by the Church, about the same time they wrote the Bible.

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## buffnut453 (Mar 6, 2022)

Greg Boeser said:


> I though the "Myth of Rome" was invented in the Middle Ages by the Church, about the same time they wrote the Bible.



Huh?


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## Greg Boeser (Mar 6, 2022)

I actually enjoy these alternate histories.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 6, 2022)

Come on now. The earth is only 6,000 years old. The pyramids were giant grain silos and man rode around on Velociraptors.

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## special ed (Mar 6, 2022)



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## at6 (Mar 6, 2022)

Aren't they going to publish a book named "Around The Square In 80 Days"?

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## special ed (Mar 7, 2022)

New debate == is the earth a square or a rectangle?


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## ARTESH (Mar 7, 2022)

at6 said:


> Aren't they going to publish a book named "Around The Square In 80 Days"?


Well, I'm sorry, but I should disappoint you!!!

It can't be named "A'round' The Square In 80 Days" ...

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## ARTESH (Mar 7, 2022)

special ed said:


> View attachment 660404


Well, has anyone searched the opposite direction!!!

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## ARTESH (Mar 7, 2022)

special ed said:


> New debate == is the earth a square or a rectangle?


That's a pentagon, I believe!

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## NVSMITH (Mar 7, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> Nope, you can't use Latin, it was made up by the fascist Ukranians when they invented the myth of Rome. It doesn't actually exist.
> 
> Remember?


-Does that mean we should use Klingon instead?

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## NVSMITH (Mar 7, 2022)

special ed said:


> View attachment 660404


-I no longer have the cartoon but the caption was to the effect that if the earth really was flat cats would have knocked everything off by now.

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## SaparotRob (Mar 7, 2022)

Heghlu’meH QaQ jajvam!

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## GrauGeist (Mar 7, 2022)

NVSMITH said:


> -Does that mean we should use Klingon instead?


I'd say that Aurebesh would be better.

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## special ed (Mar 7, 2022)

A depressive language. Many downs with no ups.

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## ARTESH (Mar 7, 2022)

o1D w#yN1 jRrdT jx#P`Mx#È 35$ÀÀÀ

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## herman1rg (Mar 7, 2022)

ARTESH said:


> o1D w#yN1 jRrdT jx#P`Mx#È 35$ÀÀÀ
> 
> View attachment 660489​


I've got some of that engraved inside a ring...

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## ARTESH (Mar 7, 2022)

herman1rg said:


> I've got some of that engraved inside a ring...


Yours is just a decorative one! The real one is destroyed by now, I think.

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## Greg Boeser (Mar 7, 2022)

Fake news.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 7, 2022)

Dunno, the way things are across the world currently, I'm starting to think that ring is still out and about.

Especially since something broke open the rock in Japan, releasing the demon...

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## MiTasol (Mar 8, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> lmao Karl!
> 
> It does seem that stupidity is one of the few human traits that transcends borders!



And the worst thing is that these ??????s are allowed to vote.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 8, 2022)

MiTasol said:


> And the worst thing is that these ??????s are allowed to vote.


Worse still, they somehow manage to reproduce...

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## at6 (Mar 9, 2022)

MiTasol said:


> And the worst thing is that these ??????s are allowed to vote.





GrauGeist said:


> Worse still, they somehow manage to reproduce...


They voted to buy factory second condoms.


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## GrauGeist (Mar 9, 2022)

at6 said:


> They voted to buy factory second condoms.


And if they only knew how to use them properly - instead, they inflate them and use them as party decorations...

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## BlackSheep (Mar 9, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> I know this subject has come up in the past over various topics, but sometimes you have to just stop and say "what the...?"
> 
> This day and age, with social media and interactive news sites, there is always public input on everything from raising kittens to the space program. Often times, the comments are so far out there, it's entertaining, yet frightening.
> 
> ...


There is something to be said about a man who stands by his convictions..

BRYCE: “……so please prove me that im wrong...i bet you cant"”

and it isn’t always something good. lol

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## special ed (Mar 9, 2022)

I think I've used this before, but this a good subject for now.

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## herman1rg (Mar 9, 2022)

special ed said:


> I think I've used this before, but this a good subject for now.
> 
> View attachment 660708

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## at6 (Mar 9, 2022)

Romania had Vlad the Impaler. Russia has Vlad the Flaccid.

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## Peter Gunn (Mar 10, 2022)

Chevrolet had Vlad the Impala...

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## GrauGeist (Mar 10, 2022)

Peter Gunn said:


> Chevrolet had Vlad the Impala...


I thought this was Vlad the Impala...

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## Old Wizard (Mar 10, 2022)




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## ARTESH (Mar 10, 2022)

I was a golden vampire for him/her, but he/she loved stone one...

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## ARTESH (Mar 10, 2022)

at6 said:


> Romania had Vlad the Impaler. Russia has Vlad the Flaccid.


Wasn't the Russian one Ivan the Terrible???


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## MiTasol (Mar 11, 2022)

He has been superceded by Vlad the Terrible Liar.

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## Oldecrow (Mar 12, 2022)

Since the dawn of humanity there has been stupidity. With every increase in the population their numbers have increased relatively. With age of social media they have now been given a platform to show themselves and stupidity knows no end in its ability to further its cause that no tin foil hat, duct tape nor superglue can save us from. I don't have enough hands to do a proper facepalm at the amount of stupidity running rampant in the world.

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## Greg Boeser (Mar 12, 2022)

The problem is the emphasis on safety means that the culling that would normally occur in nature isn't happening. Thus maladaptive behavior doesn't have the usual detrimental effects, and as a consequence the prevelance of the stupid gene in a given population is kept artificially high.

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## SaparotRob (Mar 12, 2022)

Greg Boeser said:


> The problem is the emphasis on safety means that the culling that would normally occur in nature isn't happening. Thus maladaptive behavior doesn't have the usual detrimental effects, and as a consequence the prevelance of the stupid gene in a given population is kept artificially high.


The only reason they're alive is because of the it's against the law to kill them hypothesis?

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## Greg Boeser (Mar 12, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> The only reason they're alive is because of the it's against the law to kill them hypothesis?


Well, that's certainly in play, but I was thinking of the natural adverse selection process. Play stupid games - win stupid prizes.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Mar 12, 2022)

Greg Boeser said:


> Well, that's certainly in play, but I was thinking of the natural adverse selection process. Play stupid games - win stupid prizes.



It's the old biological-vs-cultural evolution thang.

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## SaparotRob (Mar 12, 2022)

I just wanted to get that line in. I think Greg was talking along the lines of a society with warnings about not drinking battery acid and the like.


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## Greg Boeser (Mar 12, 2022)

When you have to put peanut allergy warnings on a jar of peanut butter...

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## Thumpalumpacus (Mar 12, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> I just wanted to get that line in. I think Greg was talking along the lines of a society with warnings about not drinking battery acid and the like.



Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the Darwin Awards.

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## Greg Boeser (Mar 12, 2022)

I came in as honorable mention one year. Got my sleeve caught trying to grease the inside bearings on my machine while it was running. The gears devoured the sleeve from cuff to elbow, and if the key on the drive shaft hadn't failed they would be calling me "Ol' One Arm".


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## SaparotRob (Mar 12, 2022)

I have a treasure trove of "why am I still alive" incidents. I'd hate to be forced to compete in a stupid-off.

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## pgeno71 (Mar 13, 2022)

Most people in life at some point would win a Bone-Head Award. The really stupid people don't learn from their mistakes.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Mar 14, 2022)

Don't feel bad, y'all. It happens to enough people that coroners have a cause-of-death classification for it: _death by misadventure_.

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## Chuck (Mar 14, 2022)

I'll bet some of these folks think the moon landings and maybe even the Holocost never happened.


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## Peter Gunn (Mar 15, 2022)

Chuck said:


> I'll bet some of these folks think the moon landings and maybe even the Holocost never happened.


Yes, I've met several that fall into both those categories, unfortunately.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 15, 2022)

Peter Gunn said:


> Yes, I've met several that fall into both those categories, unfortunately.


Don't forget about the "tabletop terra firma" crowd...

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## cammerjeff (Mar 15, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> Don't forget about the "tabletop terra firma" crowd...


Hey i was a member of that crowd (at least until I 1st entered the forward baggage compartment of 757-300! and I swear I could see the curvature of the earth in it!)


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## SaparotRob (Mar 15, 2022)

cammerjeff said:


> Hey i was a member of that crowd (at least until I 1st entered the forward baggage compartment of 757-300! and I swear I could see the curvature of the earth in it!)


Did you see the giant ice cliff at the edge of the Earth?


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## Marcel (Mar 15, 2022)

Isn’t this true then?

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## SaparotRob (Mar 15, 2022)

Of course it’s true!


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## Shortround6 (Mar 15, 2022)

It is true!!!!!!

I HAVE SEEN THE TURTLE!!!!!!

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