# favorite gunner position in a b 17



## J dog (Mar 15, 2013)

what position would you want the most?


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## J dog (Mar 15, 2013)

I want a nose gunner because the scenery is beautiful that is with the exception flak isn't bursting around you!

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## T Bolt (Mar 15, 2013)

What about top turret?


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## tyrodtom (Mar 15, 2013)

You'd have a outstanding view from the ball turret, but i'll bet nobody picks it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 15, 2013)

Why anybody pick any of them? I doubt any of them were "favored".


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## tyrodtom (Mar 15, 2013)

I think he means if you were a gunner on a B-17, and you had a choice, what gunner position would you rather be ?


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## Readie (Mar 15, 2013)

In the spirit of the thread....

Hard choice. Ummm...waist gunner?
Maybe I wouldn't feel as trapped as other positions.






A lot of ammo !!


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## fubar57 (Mar 15, 2013)

I read that the ball turret was the "safest" place to be and being a short-a$$, that's where they would stuff me. Back to work.......

Geo


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## J dog (Mar 15, 2013)

T Bolt said:


> What about top turret?


yes me doing this early in the morning I was an idiot and forgot that. If you say that as your choice just comment it! But come on who hasn't had one of those mornings?


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## herman1rg (Mar 15, 2013)

Chin turret on a B-17G


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## J dog (Mar 15, 2013)

tyrodtom said:


> I think he means if you were a gunner on a B-17, and you had a choice, what gunner position would you rather be ?


yes that is exactly it so wait so how'd you know? are you stalking me!?  oh wait that's just me.


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## T Bolt (Mar 15, 2013)

J dog said:


> yes me doing this early in the morning I was an idiot and forgot that. If you say that as your choice just comment it! But come on who hasn't had one of those mornings?


I would pick top turret. Nice view and that's where my dad was in 24's


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## Matt308 (Mar 15, 2013)

I've got 8th AF stats on accuracy and if I recall correctly, the tail position was most accurate. This same analysis also has percentages of likelihood of survival for each position. I wanna say that ball turret had least risk of not returning injured/alive.


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## tyrodtom (Mar 16, 2013)

How likely was it for a ball turret gunner to be able the get out of that turret, put on his parachute, and survive, when a B-17 was shot down ?


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## GrauGeist (Mar 16, 2013)

J dog said:


> I want a nose gunner because the scenery is beautiful that is with the exception flak isn't bursting around you!


You do know that the nose position was primarily the Luftwaffe's favorite target also, right?


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## Lucky13 (Mar 16, 2013)

Being too tall for the ball turret, I think that I'd make myself at home as waist gunner....


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## Wayne Little (Mar 16, 2013)

Think I'll go with the top spot....


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## J dog (Mar 16, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> You do know that the nose position was primarily the Luftwaffe's favorite target also, right?


yes but i love a good fight!


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## Matt308 (Mar 16, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> You do know that the nose position was primarily the Luftwaffe's favorite target also, right?



I believe you to be correct, but not by a huge percentage. I really should pull those 8th AF stats out. Perhaps this weekend sometime. Off to soccer.


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## tyrodtom (Mar 16, 2013)

Let's think of the disadvantages of some of the positions.
Ball turret- couldn't be very comfortable, and unlikely you'll be able to abandone aircraft very quickly.
Waist gun- drafty as heck, think of frostbite.
Nose guns- exposed, plexiglas in front of you isn't going to stop much. 
Tailgun- all by your lonesome back there, and also one of the Luftwaffe's favorite target.
Top gunner- can't think of anything yet, but there's gotta be something bad about it.


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## Readie (Mar 16, 2013)

tyrodtom said:


> Top gunner- can't think of anything yet, but there's gotta be something bad about it.



Were most of the LW attacks from underneath / rear / front ?
Maybe the Top gunner was the safest place? 'safe' being a relative term of course.
Cheers
John


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## Matt308 (Mar 16, 2013)

Okay, I promise to post the info tomorrow on Luftwaffe favorite attack directions, B-17 casualty rates by positoin and B-17 gunner accuracy rankings by 8th AF. I know I have it somewhere. But tyrodtom, I'm not liking the rear gunner position for the same reason I wouldn't like the claustrophobic ball turret position... comfort. If I recall correctly the tail gunner position is a combination small seat/bench that you kneel on with your knees. Not a seat exactly, but a chiropractic form of corporal punishment. That sounds like hell no matter how much padding they put on that bench.

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## tyrodtom (Mar 16, 2013)

I forgot about the tail gunners sort of bicycle seat-kneepad sort of position, had to be pretty uncomfortable after hours kneeling in the cold.
And the ball turret gunners position, with you cojones presented to the world, maybe that's what the armor on the ball turret was to try and make up for, that very psycologically vunerable position the ball turret gunner was in.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 16, 2013)

The only two areas of armor aboard a B-17 would be the ball and the glass plate in the tail-gunner's position...and even then, this was in the later Cheyenne version...otherwise, you had aluminum skin and the occasional structural rib to protect you from MG. and cannon rounds (not to mention flak)


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## Readie (Mar 17, 2013)

Crew Positions

By way of a comparison and not a thread de-railer...have a quick look at the gun positions of a Lancaster compared to a Flying Fortress.
I cannot help wondering why so many B17's were shot down when they so heavily armed.

Tail end charlie was the main defensive position of the Lancaster.
What do you guys consider to be the 'main defensive position' on a B17?

Cheers
John


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## tyrodtom (Mar 17, 2013)

I think it would be the tail gunner also. If the Luftwaffe pilots knew a B-17's tailgun position was out, no other gunner position could fire on them, he could stay above the ball turret's line of fire, but behind that tall tail , so the upper gunner couldn't fire, and neither waist gun could fire close to straight back.
As long as he stayed in that cone that could only be fired on by the tailgunner, he could stay back there and fire at his leisure, no deflection problems for him to figure out either. 
The only fire he'd have to worry about is the other B-17s.

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## Readie (Mar 17, 2013)

tyrodtom said:


> I think it would be the tail gunner also. If the Luftwaffe pilots knew a B-17's tailgun position was out, no other gunner position could fire on them, he could stay above the ball turret's line of fire, but behind that tall tail , so the upper gunner couldn't fire, and neither waist gun could fire close to straight back.
> As long as he stayed in that cone that could only be fired on by the tailgunner, he could stay back there and fire at his leisure, no deflection problems for him to figure out either.
> The only fire he'd have to worry about is the other B-17s.



That makes sense Tom. I hadn't thought about the top turret not being to bear on a rear target.
Cheers
John


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## Njaco (Mar 17, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> You do know that the nose position was primarily the Luftwaffe's favorite target also, right?



I'm not so sure. The "12 O'Clock High" position was used but it took nerves of steel and you only had about 3 seconds of firing time. Towards the end of the war even the raw pilots wouldn't try it. I think the most used area to attack by the LW was the rear - from the early attacks to Sturmbock attacks and from Gefechsverband ( I think thats how its spelled!) and jet attacks to even the once used ramming attacks on 7 April 1945 where they were told to fly from underneath and clip the tail.

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## Capt. Vick (Mar 17, 2013)

I would pick the waist position. Somehow I just figure if it hit the fan I could get out through the waist window at least.

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## stug3 (Mar 18, 2013)

Im a big chicken and I wouldnt want to be in a bomber crew in any capacity.


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## drgondog (Mar 18, 2013)

Simple in a couple of cases. If you were flt engineer - you ARE the top turret gunner. Radioman/communications = radio hatch. Bombardier = chin turret. IIRC most Ball gunners volunteered for the position - some rejected because too big. Average Ball turret gunner 130 pounds.

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## Matt308 (Mar 18, 2013)

Yep it was a very tight fit.


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## Bernhart (Mar 19, 2013)

haven't been 130 lbs since grade school...


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## Poor Old Spike (Mar 20, 2013)

The waist positions look well protected.
And a guy in the perspex nose would have a lot of armour behind him down the length of the fuselage, but if the Luftwaffe came in head-on he wouldn't stand a chance

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## tyrodtom (Mar 20, 2013)

Most of that armor is set up to protect from rear attacks, could actually make things worse if the attack's from the front.
I wonder is armor placement was changed on the later models, when frontal attacks became more common ?


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## drgondog (Mar 21, 2013)

No.


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## Junglerot (Mar 25, 2013)

There is some interesting data at 8th Air Force Combat Losses in World War II ETO Against the AXIS Powers on casualties by crew postion. this data seems to indicte that the top turret was the safest position in the ship. High POW numbers indicate (to me anyway) ability to survive serious damage to ship and ability to safely bailout. Low WIA numbers speak for themselves. I don't think KIA numbers inform the discussion because of instances where ships go down with entire crews.

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## Swede Ware (Apr 11, 2021)

A little later in the ETO, B-24's started adding armor on the exterior of the cockpit.


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## gruad (Apr 19, 2021)

Njaco said:


> I'm not so sure. The "12 O'Clock High" position was used but it took nerves of steel and you only had about 3 seconds of firing time. Towards the end of the war even the raw pilots wouldn't try it. I think the most used area to attack by the LW was the rear - from the early attacks to Sturmbock attacks and from Gefechsverband ( I think thats how its spelled!) and jet attacks to even the once used ramming attacks on 7 April 1945 where they were told to fly from underneath and clip the tail.



I believe the Frontal attack required much more pilot skill. Attack from the rear allowed attacks in Groups too.

Miltary History Visualised has done some work on this.

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