# Best tank gun for year



## Vincenzo (Aug 14, 2014)

Your choices only guns in tank fielded in the war operations 
years from 1940 to 1944


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## Vincenzo (Aug 14, 2014)

just for help

1940 tank gun (i omit 20mm and smaller)
French: 25 SA35 (L47), 37 SA18 (L21), 37 SA38 (L35), 47 SA34 (L30), 47 SA35 (L32), 75 SA35 (L17)
British: 2 pdr (40/52), 3 L25 (76/25), 3.7 L15 (94/15)
Germans: 3.7 KwK 36 (L45), 3.7 KwK 34 (t) (L40), 3.7 KwK 38 (t) (L48 ), 7.5 KwK 37 (L24)
Italians: 37/40, 47/32
Soviets: 45 20K (L46), 76 KT28 (L16), 76 L10 (L26), 76 L11 (L30) (only in prototypes but tested in battle)
Japanese: 37 Type 94 (L36), 37 Type 98 (L36)*, 57 Type 90 (L18 ), 57 Type 97 (L18 ), * not sure on this
probably some "minor" countries had some other tank gun

1941 (idem i add only new types)
Germans: 5 KwK 38 (L42)
Soviets: 57 ZIS-4 (L73) (small serie), 76 L11 (L30) (series tanks), 76 F32 (L30), 76 F34 (L41), 152 M10T (L24)
US: 37 M5 (L49)

1942
British: 6 pdr Mk 3 (57/43)
Germans: 5 KwK 39 (L60), 7.5 KwK 40 (L43), 7.5 KwK 40 (L48 ), 8.8 KwK 36 (L56) (small test unit)
Japanese: 47 Type 1 (L48 )
US: 37 M6 (L56), 75 M2 (L31), 75 M3 (L40)

1943:
British: 6 pdr Mk 5 (57/50), 75 (L36)
Germans: 7.5 KwK 42 (L70)
Italians: 47/40
Soviets: 85 D5T (L52)

1944:
British: 17 pdr (76/55)
Germans: 8.8 KwK 43 (L71)
Italians: 75/34 (used in small numbers by Germans)
Soviets:85 S53 (L55), 122 D25T (L46)
US: 76 M1 (L57), 76 M1A1 (L52)


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## davebender (Aug 14, 2014)

IMO the best light tank main gun for the entire war.


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## fastmongrel (Aug 14, 2014)

1940 I would say the French 47mm APX just a pity they werent used properly by the French. Good powerful gun with a useful HE shell.







It has been pointed out to me that the 47mm APX was not the gun fitted to French tanks but the rather smaller 47mm SA35. In that case I change my pick and go for the 2 pounder.


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## fastmongrel (Aug 14, 2014)

1942 the 7.5cm KwK 40 L/48


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## fastmongrel (Aug 14, 2014)

1941 the Soviet F-34 76.2 L/42.5


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## Shortround6 (Aug 14, 2014)

In the early part of the war few, if any, guns were dual purpose. In other words both hole punchers and HE carriers ( field fortification wreckers). SO in the early war it sort of depends _which_ type of gun you want. 



Vincenzo said:


> 1940 tank gun (i omit 20mm and smaller)
> French: 25 SA35 (L47), 37 SA18 (L21), 37 SA38 (L35), 47 SA34 (L30), 47 SA35 (L32), 75 SA35 (L17)
> British: 2 pdr (40/52), 3 L25 (76/25), 3.7 L15 (94/15)
> Germans: 3.7 KwK 36 (L45), 3.7 KwK 34 (t) (L40), 3.7 KwK 38 (t) (L48 ), 7.5 KwK 37 (L24)
> ...



The French 25mm was a fair hole puncher but pretty useless for anything else, The 37mm guns were hardly first class the SA18 being especially poor. The 47 SA35 was actually pretty near the top of the heap. The 75 SA35 falls into the HE thrower category and it's only _service_ mounting made it pretty useless in a tank dual. 

British 2 pdr was near the top of the heap as a hole puncher (it was in a different class than most/all of the 37mm guns) but it's lack of HE is well known. The other two guns listed are pretty much useless for fighting other tanks and in fact throw rather light projectiles for their caliber making them rather light in the HE dept. 

German/Czech 37mm guns are medium hole punchers and due to shell design, not much for HE although something is better than nothing. One source saying the HE shells only had 25 grams of HE?. The 7.5 KwK 37 (L24) _might_ be a candidate for best all-round gun simply by being kind of medium in both categories. Except for...later. 

The Italaian guns are out of the running, not as bad as some but not as good as others. 

The Soviet 45mm is good but doesn't quite live up to it's caliber. On the other hand the Soviet 76mm guns are a bit of a question mark and a mixed bag. Not listed is the 76mm L-10 gun of 26 calibers length which used the same ammo as the regular field guns and the both 76mm guns used in the T-34. The shorter barrel hurt performance a bit but this gun may be the best all round gun in 1940, it was used in some T-28 tanks. I am not sure if the shorter guns used the same ammo as the 76mm 'infantry" guns. There is a difference of about 190-200m/s in velocity between the L16.5 and the L26 guns. 

The Japanese guns are also out of the running, the 37mm guns are not good enough hole punchers and the 57mm guns are bad hole punchers and nowhere near the equal of a 75/76mm gun for HE.


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## Shortround6 (Aug 14, 2014)

davebender said:


> IMO the best light tank main gun for the entire war.



Actually a not very good light tank gun _as used_ in the MK II tank. HE ammo was NOT general issue to the tanks so it's anti-personnel performance was pretty low. It's armor punching ability was also not particularity good for most of the war. 

14mm at 500m at 30 degrees for normal AP ammo which isn't bad for a 20mm gun but is pretty useless against any sort of "real" tank. APCR only kicks it up to 20mm penetration at 500m and APCR wasn't all that common. 

Light tanks/armoured cars armed with 37-45mm guns had more flexibility and target effect, They may not have been able to take on "medium tanks" from the front after 1940/41 but they at least had a chance at the sides/rear of many medium tanks for several years after.


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## Vincenzo (Aug 14, 2014)

fastmongrel:
the 47mm APX is not the same 47mm gun on french tanks. i'm agree on your choice for 1941, and i'm not agree with your for 1942 the 7.5 KwK 40 was a superior weapon.

Shortround6:
the 25mm on tank (just 10 light tanks) was a shorted variant on the ATG idk its performance but the cut is long (over 20 calibre), the french 47/32 is balistically only marginally better of italian 47/32, yes i missed the L-10 i adding.


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## fastmongrel (Aug 15, 2014)

Vincenzo said:


> fastmongrel:
> the 47mm APX is not the same 47mm gun on french tanks. i'm agree on your choice for 1941, and i'm not agree with your for 1942 the 7.5 KwK 40 was a superior weapon.



I didnt know that my bad. In that case I would change my 1940 weapon to the QF 2 pounder. 

I got myself in a tangle with the 41 and 42 choices I originally was thinking the 5cm for 41 and the L43 version of the 7.5cm for 42 thinking the L48 version didnt come into service till 43. Did a bit more research realised I had forgotten the Soviet 76.2mm and that the L48 7.5cm came into service earlier than I thought. 

I will edit things to make more sense


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## davebender (Aug 15, 2014)

Recon vehicles have no business fighting medium tanks. They fight each other (i.e. counter recon mission) and employ HE in self defense when discovered by enemy infantry.


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## Shortround6 (Aug 15, 2014)

The Problems with that theory are many. One is that the Germans were chronically short of medium tanks and and used the MK II and it's 20mm gun to bulk out numbers in the early part of the war. Another is that the battlefield is seldom so orderly. The Americans had some _great_ theories about armored warfare too, like tanks weren't supposed to fight tanks, that was the job of tank destroyers. Trouble was it required the co-operation of the enemy in order to work. 
Sometimes Recon units (including light tanks) were used for flank security which requires a bit more firepower than annoying the units making a counter thrust. 
A big anti-tank rifle might have been acceptable armament in 1939/40 for a light tank, it was hardly acceptable in 1942 and by 1944 it was a bad joke. 
Maybe there was a reason the German Recon units had so many "extra" vehicles mounting larger guns?


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## fastmongrel (Aug 16, 2014)

Its noticeable that British recon vehicles started with a MG and ended up with a mix of 2 pounder, 6 pounder and 75mm armed vehicles.


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## Vincenzo (Aug 16, 2014)

my choice
all/only main medium tanks gun (for this purpose are medium tanks all the tanks with guns that are not heavy, main 25% or more of medium tank fleet)
1940: 76 L10-11 / TBA
1941: 76 F34 / 5 KwK 38
1942: 8.8 KwK 36 / 76 F34
1943: 8.8 KwK 36 / 7.5 KwK 40
1944: 8.8 KwK 43 / 7.5 KwK 42

edit:
1940 tank guns taking requirements for MMT gun
French: 37 SA18, probably all the other were too few for the 25% requirement (the 47 also combined were under 15%, the 37 SA 38 is probably near around the 20%)
British: obviously the 2 pdr
Germans: 3.7 KwK 36, 7.5 KwK 37
Italians: 37/40, 47/32
Soviets: 45 20K
Japanese: 37 Type 95, 57 Type 90

my choice 7.5 KwK 37


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## Juha (Aug 16, 2014)

my choices
88mm cannons were too heavy for medium tanks
1940: 76 L10-11 / 2pdr
1941: 76 F34 / 5 KwK 38
1942: 7.5 KwK 40 
1943: 7.5 KwK 42 / 85 D5T
1944: 7.5 KwK 42 / 85 S53

Juha


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## Shortround6 (Aug 16, 2014)

fastmongrel said:


> Its noticeable that British recon vehicles started with a MG and ended up with a mix of 2 pounder, 6 pounder and 75mm armed vehicles.



British wound up with a mix, usually 2 mg armed scout cars and 2 cannon armed armored cars per section/platoon. But the 15mm Besa gun certainly went away. 

German 20mm gun has some of the same problems _in use_ as the 2pdr did. Like lack of HE ammo at least early/mid war. What tanks units were able to 'borrow' from AA units may change that on occasion but the MG was the primary anti-personnel weapon. 2nd problem in the MK II tank (as opposed to the armored cars) is the one man turret on the MK II tank. Both use 10 round magazines as opposed to the 20 round magazine used by the AA guns so magazine changes are that much more frequent. Perhaps the radio operator in the hull could hand magazines up to the commander/gunner in the MK II tank but that is the extent of the help. The fact that the commander/gunner could fire 10 rounds without having to 'reload' was certainly an advantage in a one man turret in an anti-vehicle engagement but the lack of hitting power was a real problem. The Sd. Kfz. 222 used a high angle mount as did the Sd. Kfz. 234/1 and some half-track and Pz 38(t) chassis. This mount was intended for dual ground/AA use and these vehicles probably did have HE ammo. 

The British _mix_ allowed for recon to be conducted by both stealth and fighting for it. Once you start using tracked vehicles stealth rather goes out the window, the tracks make too much noise even if the engine has a decent muffler.


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## davebender (Aug 16, 2014)

"Chronically" barely begins to describe the problem. German Army established requirements for medium tanks during mid 1930s but production wasn't funded until 1942. 

However that doesn't alter fact that high velocity 20mm auto cannon works just fine for recon vehicles right up to present day.


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## Vincenzo (Aug 16, 2014)

Juha so your choices are limited to medium tank guns?

Shortround6 actually german 20mm as not the same problem of 2 pdr because they had APHE shell and is autocannon


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## Shortround6 (Aug 16, 2014)

Production was _not_ funded until 1942?????? in what alternate universe?

3522 MK III tanks _built_ by the end of 1941, not "funded" but actually built.
1081 MK IV tanks _built_ by the end of 1941, not "funded" but actually built.

MK III figures do include Stugs though. 

There were 1267 PZ 38(t) chassis built until the beginning of 1942 also but those maybe considered "light" tanks after 1940? 

Modern 20mm cannon may work "just fine" but again the targets are a bit different (most modern 20mm have secondary AA or anti-helicopter role), they use more powerful ammunition than the German WW II gun/s, they fire faster (in some cases much faster) they are belt fed with much more ammo both in the feed system and in reserve than the WW II vehicles and in many cases have TWO different feed systems allowing for a very quick switch between ammo types. 

This is almost like saying that because a Bofors L70 gun is quite useful today for a variety of roles that the British 40mm AT gun was perfectly good for _all of WW II_ just because it was the same caliber. 

German _Modern_ 20mm Rh 202 cannon used a number of 1950-90 vehicles fires at 800-1000rpm instead of 280-450rpm for the WW II guns, the velocity is 100-150 meters a second higher with comparable projectile types. In the Luchs armored car it has an elevation of 69 degrees which is certainly an indication that is has some sort of AA role. The Luchs carried 300 rounds of HE ammunition and 75 rounds of AP. Which is roughly twice the amount of ammo carried by the majority pf German WW II vehicles armed with 20mm guns. BTW a Marder APC carried 1250 rounds of 20mm ammo and has THREE feed systems the gunner can choose from for different types of ammo. 

And there was quite a bit if debate about modifying/up gunning a number of the vehicles using it to 25mm, 30mm or even 35mm guns. Salesmanship for the gun companies or dissatisfaction with the weapon capabilities? Most or all were ussually side lined due to cost/budgets. 

Sorry, neither the Germans weren't "funding" Medium tanks until 1942 or the 20mm was a good recon armament in WW II really stand up to a good look.

BTW the API-T ammo for the 'modern' German 20mm gun is listed as penetrating 32mm of armor at 1000 meters at 0 degrees. 24mm of armor at 1000 meters at 30 degrees and 8mm at 1000 meters at 60 degrees. Compared to the 14mm at 500 meters at 30 degrees for the WW II gun. 

Using modern guns and ammo to try to justify WW II use has too many things that vary.


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## Shortround6 (Aug 16, 2014)

Vincenzo said:


> Juha so your choices are limited to medium tank guns?
> 
> Shortround6 actually german 20mm as not the same problem of 2 pdr because they had APHE shell and is autocannon



I have a reprint/translation of a German training manual and the recommended tactics for engaging towed AT guns with MK II tanks are spelled out pretty well, from the flank or rear the AT gun the weapon used was the MG from recommended distances. Only when engaging the front of the AT gun (against the common armor shield) was the 20mm gun to be used. Similar recommendations for other targets are made. It doesn't seem like the 20mm gun was being used at all for HE effect for unprotected troops. 
The early 20mm gun (KWK 30) fired at 280rpm cyclic (about 4-4.5 rounds per second) from 10 round magazines. 

The "normal" German 20mm ammuntion seems to have contained 6-7grams of HE or HE/incendiary material per round of HEI or HEI-T. The API/T or APHE/T rounds were 3-4 grams of HE or incendiary. The German 37mm AT/tank round contained 25 grams of HE and the 50mm HE round contained 165 grams. Then you have a fusing problem. If the fuse is supposed to detonate the charge _after_ it penetrates 6-12mm of steel plate what does it have to hit in order for the fuse to function when firing against men in the open or even in "cover" (shrubs, bushes, wooden fences, etc).
You are correct the 2pder did not have HE ammuntion but the 20mm German gun had very little or ammunition that was not effective against troops in the open or non armoured vehicles (will fuse function even on a door or fender?), The HE fuse might since it was designed to function of aircraft skin but fuses that function too quickly on AP ammo detonate the shell _before_ in penetrates and degrade the penetration ability. APHE is NOT dual purpose ammo. 

I am not sure if the MK II tank used the gun semi auto or just fired short (2-4 round) bursts. With 10 round magazines they sure weren't hosing down an area with continuous fire 

You also have a similarity in while the 2pdr was a semi-automatic gun it's *practical* rate of fire on the AT gun mount and it's *practical* rate of fire in _some_ armored vehicle turrets are very different things, see photo so kindly provided above. 
Practical rate of fire for MK II tank 20mm vrs 20mm AA gun are likewise very different despite the same 'nominal' cycle rate of fire.


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## Vincenzo (Aug 16, 2014)

as the manual tell if the troops are in the open or are unarmoured vehicles the mg are enough you do not need to fire HE shell for do damage, if they have a little protection is more usefull the 20 kwk that the 2 pdr, not that the 20 kwk is the ideal weapon but i think is more usefull of 2 pdr in that situation, obviously vs a tank or an other armoured vehicle the 2 pdr is clearly superior


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## Shortround6 (Aug 16, 2014)

Thing is that an AT gun is a threat to the tank if the AT gun can be swung (traversed) onto the firing tanks position. It is also a threat to any friendly units in front of it. The AT gun/s need to be neutralized before this can happen. This was the big failing of the British tanks using 2pdr and 6pdr guns, NO HE to engage AT guns. And the German manual is saying to use the 20mm gun ONLY on the front aspect of the AT gun (against the armor shield)? 

It seems as if both the 20mm gun (as used in the MK II tank, the armored cars _may/probably _have had HE ammunition), and the 2pdr were pretty much in the same position/situation in this case.


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## Vincenzo (Aug 16, 2014)

again i'm not agree
both need to fire to the shield (imho i don't think that a small shell like a 20mm with a normal HE load can be used like a artillery and put out of service the ATG with the splinters)
the 2 kwk can fire more rounds in the same time
penetrate the shield the 2 kwk shell explode that of 2 pdr no


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## Shortround6 (Aug 17, 2014)

A single 20mm round cannot act like a bigger artillery shell but multiple 20mm rounds? 

Here is where Mr. Bender confuses the effectiveness of modern 20mm guns (or post war guns) with the 20mm KwK. The post war German gun could fire about 30 shells in two seconds. Not only machine gun like even if the shells do not explode but shells hitting the ground, structures, large trees/branches and parts of the gun itself (trail legs, etc) can explode. The WW II German _TANK_ guns fired at about 4.5 and 8 rounds a second but had that 10 round magazine. After 2 seconds everybody in the target area will have gone to ground and be much harder to hit with either mg bullets or 20mm shells. A 20mm Flakvierling can fire 80 rounds in 2 1/2 seconds which explains a large part of it's effectiveness. Cutting the number of rounds fired to 1/8th and using AP instead of HE and the effectiveness becomes ?????

20mm HE shells _may_ work against the shield on an AT gun and blow a hole in it. 20mm AP rounds will go through it. However a 2pr projectile going though the shield turns 4 times as much metal from the shield into splinters as a 20mm projectile. Getting hits on the shield is a real problem as the AT Guns are so much smaller than tanks. Getting hits on the barrel or recoil system is pretty much a matter of luck. 







Trying to hit barrel/recoil cylinder at 600-900 meters? 

Both guns (20mm Kwk and 2pdr) are pretty ineffective against dug in or positioned AT guns, or soft targets in general. 

Again, perhaps the armored cars with their high angle mounts had HE ammo that could be used against ground targets too but it doesn't seem like the MK II tanks had it. 

we could get into the shoulda/woulda game (British screwed themselves many times over with their obsession with cheap ammo) But _as used_ both guns had similar limitations in target effectiveness. Germans masked it much better because they seldom used MK II tanks _alone_ in units larger than platoons after the very early part of the war so there were usually some other tanks in the company that could fire HE, unlike the British who had too few HE firing tanks for far too long.


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## Vincenzo (Aug 17, 2014)

you gain miss my point (already writed in my n° 18 post)
20mm is autocannon so for 1 pdr round fired we have some 20mm shell fired
20mm has aphe shell so after penetration they explode 
so it's true that the one 2 pdr round put 4 times more metal inside respect ad 1 20mm shell but this explode and is not one 20mm shell but a few


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## Shortround6 (Aug 17, 2014)

We are arguing about bad and really bad 

The early 20mm KwK had a rather poor rate of fire (280rpm) and while German fuses were often better than British ones, fuses on AP rounds functioning _properly_ after penetration was always a bit iffy. How many feet behind the shield does the shell detonate after penetration? kind of depends of impact velocity (range to target), thickness of shield, angle of shield, manufacturing tolerance of fuse, etc. This is assuming the fuse functioned at all after penetration. 

The First British projectile for the 2pdr was an APHE but they gave up on it because of high number of fuse failures and the fact that the solid shot penetrated more armor. Like I said the German fuses were better but far from perfect. 

The MK II tank is going to get off 10 shots in 1.2-2.5 seconds depending on gun and holding the trigger until the magazine is empty. This is assuming the recoil doesn't throw the aim off. Then there is a pause of several seconds (2,3,5, more?) while the commander, gunner, loader (all the same guy) takes out the old magazine, gets a new one and fits it into the gun. 
Yes, the gun was an "auto-loader" but many people are using the same 'effectiveness' as the ground mount single barrel AA gun or other "auto-loaders" with larger feed systems and/or dedicated loaders in the crew operating in less confined spaces. Just like the towed 2pdr AT gun was rated at 22-25rpm but the 2pdr gun in the Valentine turret pictured earlier in the thread is going to need divine intervention to even come close to that.  

The Armored car guns may do better. But the MK II tank was NOT one of these with the advantage of a closed turret






They may use the same ammo but the target effect is a lot different.


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## Vincenzo (Aug 17, 2014)

actually i never thinked that a Pz II is a flak gun in a armoured turret and never thinked to a long burst mode fire
if the 20mm firing in semiauto mode (like a pistol) probably it fired (almost) 4 shell for one 2 pdr round so also if only 2 explode we had same ammount of metal inside plus 2 small explosion, i think fuses for AT shell are very fast the tank were small, early war very small, so probably very few feet


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## Shortround6 (Aug 17, 2014)

Just for comparisons sake a British No 36 Mills bomb grenade weighed 369g and contained about 92g of HE of various types depending on availability. which is much less than the German Stick grenade. 
A German 37MM Flak projectile weighing 635g contained about 24g of PETN wax and the 37mm AT/Tank gun HE shell weighed 610g and had 25g pressed TNT with a large tracer. The AP projectile weighed 680g and had 13g PETN wax. 
The 50mm AT/tank gun had a HE projectile with 165g of pressed TNT in a 1.78kg projectile and the 2.05KG AP projectile had 25g PETN wax/
The 75mm AT/tank guns used a HE projectile with 640g of amatol in a 5.8kg projectile and the APHE weighed 6.8kg and had a 16g burster of cyclonite/wax. 

The 37mm and 50mm HE rounds were _somewhat_ useful although each tank battalion had a _company_ of 75mm armed tanks for close support ( a British battalion was lucky if it had 8 tanks total with HE firing guns). 

The American 37mm AT/tank gun fired an HE projectile with 38.6g flaked TNT in a 730g projectile. 
The American/British 75mm guns used an HE shell of 6.67kg with a 667g burster. 

It is not impossible to take-out an anti-tank gun with 2-4 rounds of 20mm ammo weighing around 120g with a 3.6g burster but considering that most countries figured you really needed the 75mm guns to handle dug in guns and field fortifications the 20mm AP rounds really don't look very effective. Please note the Flakvierling could deliver about 480g of HE (9.6kg of shell weight) in about 2.5 seconds which _may_ help account for it's reputation in ground combat. Apply dud rate as you see fit ( and everybodies 75mm guns had at least some duds,too).

Of course the MK II tank engaging an AT gun from the front is in the position of using whatever 20mm projectiles it has or using the co-ax gun on a target (the gun shield) that was designed to counter that exact weapon.


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## Vincenzo (Aug 18, 2014)

the point is not that 2 cm kwk can do a good work v/s a ATG but that can do a better work of 2 pdr with its AP round
i think that all are agree that a 75mm gun HE shell is better and actually a 105mm HE shell is much better,


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