# Macchi Mc.205 Veltro



## Squeelig (May 16, 2006)

I have heard that the Veltro could "hold its own" against the Mustang and Spitfire and was the equal to anything the Germands had in 1943.

What say you?


----------



## red admiral (May 17, 2006)

Below 6000m or so it could hold it's own against just about anything.


----------



## Twitch (May 17, 2006)

Yeah, it was a good plane.


----------



## Dogwalker (May 17, 2006)

Squeelig said:


> I have heard that the Veltro could "hold its own" against the Mustang and Spitfire and was the equal to anything the Germands had in 1943.
> 
> What say you?


Surely it could, and did it since the last day of the war, that's not bad for an aircraft that first flew in spring 1942.
Many italian pilots flew both C 205 and Bf 109G, others flew Spits IX, P38L and P51D after the war. Every aircraft had his points and weakness, so the rating could vary from a pilot to another according with their preferences, but the general judgement is that the Veltro could match with the best on an equal basis.
His main advantages were the handling, especially at high speed, the high climb rate (5' 35" to 20000 ft) and the general sturdiness of the structure.


----------



## Sal Monella (May 17, 2006)

All the Series 5 fighters were outstanding and I would argue that the Fiat G.55 and Regianna Re-2005 were probably superior to any fighter in existence at the time Italy surrendered in September of 1943. Germany toyed with the idea of replacing the Me-109 with the Fiat G.55 but the production costs were too high.

The Mc-205 had a better armament (two .50's and two 20mm's) than the weakly outfitted Mc-202 (two 7.7's and two .50's). I think it's impressive flight capabilities were limited to lower than 24,000ft. You certainly wouldn't want to be caught down on the deck with one on yout tail.


----------



## Gnomey (May 17, 2006)

I would agree with what has been said, the Mc-205 could hold its own (and did) against the various fighters around at the time.


----------



## Sal Monella (May 17, 2006)

Reggiane Re-2005





Fiat G.55


----------



## Squeelig (May 18, 2006)

What were the best variants of the Me-109 and Fw-190 in frontline service on September 8, 1943 when Italy surrendered?

Coo, pictures Sal Monella.


----------



## Gnomey (May 18, 2006)

The BF-109G: http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/bf109g.html
and the FW190A-6: http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/fw190af.html


----------



## red admiral (May 18, 2006)

Summary of report on German tests at Giudonia


The G-55 was seen as most favourable of the tested Italian planes

G-55:
- Armament: 1 MG-151/20 and 4 12.7 mm MG.
- High forces on the aileron.
- Effect of rudder could be better.
- Plane curves very good and narrow.
- Slightly uneasy in "mid position" (shooting position).
- Pitch to any side could not be noticed, similiar to Spitfire.
- Moderate pilot view on take off, during flight limit to front above, good to sides and backwards.
- Worse pilot view than the German planes.
- Aeronautical not as good as German planes.
- Not useable as fighterbomber with bomb under fuselage.
- Equal to German planes in climb and high altitude performance.
- Inferior in speed by 25 km/h, but Italian produced DB 605 delivered 100 PS less than the German.
- Superior in armament and range to the German planes.
- Ability to install DB 603 without bigger modifications.
- Was evaluated as best Italian plane in the trials.

Macchi 205 V:
- Armament: 4 12.7 mm MG.
- Unstable in lateral axis.
- Very high effect of rudder.
- Tendency to "Überziehen" (stall ?).
- Forces on aileron and rolling good.
- Moderate pilot view on take-off, during flight limit to front above, good to sides and backwards.
- Will be only produced in small numbers since it is a temporary solution.

Macchi 205 N:
- Armament: 1 MG-151/20 and 4 12.7 mm MG.
- Mass production variant of DB 605.
- Good rudder effect.
- Was smoothly in "mid position" (shooting position).
- Rolling good.
- Rudder forces a little smaller than for Bf 109 G-4.
- Cooler too small for constant climbing and use in tropical environment.
- Moderate pilot view on take-off, during flight limit to front above, good to sides and backwards.
- Wing not solid but made of three parts, plane not suited for fighter-bomber use.

Reggiane 2005:
- Armament: 3 MG-151/20 and 2 12.7 mm MG.
- Aeronautical attributes were sufficient.
- Curves well, rolling like Bf 109 G-4 with rudder forces a little less.
- Take-offs and landings easy.
- Pilot seat a little too far away from control stick.
- Not suited as fighter-bomber due to size and location of cooler.
- Moderate pilot view on take-off, during flight limit to front above, good to sides and backwards.

All Italian planes had an armored pilot seat with 11 mm armor thickness and a 11 mm thick headrest armor.

I also found this;

"The day of 2 aug 1943 6 Mc 205V of 155° Gr. "Black Panthers" sub-unit of 51° St.Caccia "Black Cats" faced 24 NZ P40 and killed 11 of them"

and this;

"I can refer about the opinions of some pilots who drove them in battle: dad drove only Fiat G-55, probably not the exploiter among those but probably the most advanced and easy to ride. As macchi 205 it was produced also after the end of the war and serviced as Fiat G-59, a nice evolution powered with a Merlin. Dad said that the pitch roll rate were higher than Spits and Mustangs, in the while the DB605 engine provided an extra kinetic energy boost after sudden dives than the Merlin equipped versions. G55 (G= ing.Gabrielli the father of G91 and G222) was a masterwork: easy to ride, extremely reactive, higly aerobatic was really tough to die. Dad was wounded while attacking a B-24 box in summer 1944: the windshear hit by a .50 round exploded punching his face with a lot of glass-shrapnels and the hot oil blowed out the DB engine ustioned deeply all those tiny wounds on his face. When he landed there were more holes in his own wings than a Swiss gruviere, at least 50.50 rounds drilled his G55. The day after the FIAT was combat ready another time, dad not at all."


----------



## Dogwalker (May 18, 2006)

red admiral said:


> Macchi 205 V:
> ...
> - Unstable in lateral axis.
> ...


Surprisingly, the instability in lateral axis, due to the small tail, was one of the complaints the C 205 pilots often reported about the german machines when switched to Bf 109.



red admiral said:


> Reggiane 2005:
> ...
> - Not suited as fighter-bomber due to size and location of cooler.
> ...


They didn't notice that little 1000 kg hardpoint under the fuselage and the two 160 kg hardpoints under the wings.


----------



## red admiral (May 18, 2006)

The German report and remarks of German pilots were basically the complete opposite of the Italians. e.g. Re 2005 being structurally weak and not being able to dive very well vs. 980kph diving speed on tests with few compressibility problems (there are a few people on another forum who reckon the 2005 touched over Mach 1 during diving attacks on B-17s)

Btw, with a 1000kg weapon on the ventral point of the Re2005 how did it affect the flow around the radiator? And why did Reggiane change from the under-wings on the 2001?


----------



## Dogwalker (May 18, 2006)

The ventral hardpoint was tested with 650 kg bombs, since the 1000 kg possibility was intended to be used to install a torpedo (whose installation requires a modification in the rear weel that was never done in any of the produced aircrafts). As far I know, surprisingly for the pilots themselves, the asymmetrical hardpoint worked well, with only a little, and easily manageable, tendency for the aircraft to turn right during the takeoff run. No cooling problems were reported during the tests. But no production Re 2005 was effectively used as a fighter bomber.

The central radiator for the Re 2005 was choosen cause the underwing installation, even good for a fighter bomber, affected too much the aerodynamic of the Re 2001 and was one of the main causes of the lack of prestations of this aircraft compared with the C.202 (in other aircrafts the twin radiators worked well, but that was not the case of he Re 2001).
To solve this problem, a prototype of Re 2001 was fitted with the two radiators buried into the wings, with the intake in the wing's edge and the exaust over it. The solution worked well, and this changement was sufficient to boost the max speed of the Re 2001 from 540 Km/h to 600 Km/h, but the project of the Re 2005 at that time was too advanced to change it (The Reggiane firm was in competition with Fiat and Macchi, and every delay could be fatal for the project), so, the designers decided to save it for the Re 2006.


----------



## Sal Monella (May 18, 2006)

This was cut and pasted from a web source by Davidicus on another thread about the Series 5 fighters:
------------------------------------------------------------------------

In December 1942 a technical commission of the Regia Aeronautica was invited by Luftwaffe to test some German aircrafts in Rechlin. The visit was part of a joint plan for the standardization of the Axis aircraft production. In the same time some Luftwaffe officers visited Guidonia where they were particularly interested in the performances promised by the Serie 5's. On December 9 these impressions were discussed in a Luftwaffe staff meeting and rised the interest of Goering itself.

In February 1943 a German test commission was sent in Italy to evaluate the new Italian fighters. The commission was led by Oberst Petersen and was formed by Luftwaffe officiers and pilots nad by technical personnel, among them the Flugbaumeister Malz. The Germans carried with them also several aircrafts included a Fw190A and a Me109G for direct comparison tests in simulated dogfights.

The tests began February 20. The German commission, not without a certain surprise, was very impressed by the Italian aircrafts, the G55 in particular. In general, all the Serie 5's were very good at low altitudes, but the G55 was competitive with its German opponents also in term of speed and climb rate at high altitudes still maintaining superior handling characteristics. The definitive evaluation by the German commission was "excellent" for the G55, "good" for the Re2005 and "average" for the MC205. *Oberst Petersen defined the G55 "the best fighter in the Axis" and immediately telegraphed his impressions to Goering. After listening the recommendations of Petersen, Milch and Galland, a meeting held by Goering on February 22 voted to produce the G55 in Germany.*

The interest of the Germans, apart from the good test results, derived also from the development possibilities they was able to see in the G55 and in the Re2005. For the Re2005 the German interest resulted in the provision of an original DB605 with the new WM injection. This engine and a VDM propeller were installed on the MM495 prototype that was acquired by Luftwaffe and tested in Rechlin. The aircraft reached 700 km/h during a test with a German pilot, but the airframe was not judged sufficiently strong for these performances.

The G55 was bigger and heavier and was considered a very good candidate for the new DB603 engine. Other visits were organized in Germany during March and May 1943 in Rechlin and Berlin. The G55 was again tested at Rechlin at the presence of Milch. Gabrielli and other FIAT personalities were invited to visit German factories and to discuss the evolution of the aircraft. The specifications of the German G55/II included the DB603 engine, five 20 mm guns and a pressurized cockpit. The suggestion of weapons in the wings, limited to one 20 mm gun for each wing, originated the final configuration of the Serie I, while the 603 engine was succesfully installed in the G56 prototypes.

As a concrete results of the German interest in the G55, the Luftwaffe acquired three complete G55 Sottoserie 0 airframes (MM91064-65-66) for evaluations and experiments giving in change three DB603 engines and original machinery for the setup of other production lines of the DB605/RA1050 RC58 I. Two of the Luftwaffe G55's remained in Turin, at the Aeritalia plants, where they were used by German and Italian engineers to study the planned modifications and the possible optimizations to the production process. Later these two were converted to Serie I and delivered to the ANR. The third one was transferred to Rechlin for tests and experiments in Germany. The DB603 engines were used to build the G56 prototypes.

The interest in the G55 program was still high after the Armistice: in October 1943 Kurt Tank, who previously personally tested a G55 in Rechlin, was in Turin to discuss about the G55 production. However, war events and the not yet optimized production process were the reasons for which the G55 program was eventually abandoned by the Luftwaffe. Early produced G55's required about 15000 manhours; while there were estimations to reduce the effort to about 9000 manhours, the German factories were able to assemble a Bf109 in only 5000 manhours.


----------



## Jank (May 18, 2006)

The dashing Major Adriano Visconti, Italy's leading ace with 26 kills (most obtained while flying a Macchi Mc.200) 

He piloted both the Bf-109G-10 as well as the Macchi Mc.205 Veltro late in 1944 for the ANR. He preferred the handling of the Mc.205 over the Bf-109G-10.


----------



## red admiral (May 19, 2006)

Hi Dogwalker,

Do you happen to have a good 3-view drawing of Re 2005? I like to do a few alterations like this;

Macchi C.209
Upright V12 engine similar process to Asso 750 > Asso XI but with using the larger 57l Asso 1000. I had a few problems with fitting a W engine to the airframe so need a V. Assuming weight to be about 750-800kg, not a great deal more than the DB601/5. Power about 1800hp-2300hp.
A few other alterations; move to chin radiator like G.59. Slightly larger ventral radiator for larger engine. Move 12.7mm guns to the wings as there is no longer space. Bubble canopy like G.59 again. The end result is very agreeable.


----------



## Dogwalker (May 19, 2006)

A beautiful machine. 
Here there are two very detailed drawings of the Re 2005: http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/re2005.html



red admiral said:


> G-55:
> ...
> - Inferior in speed by 25 km/h, but Italian produced DB 605 delivered 100 PS less than the German.
> ...


More I read, more it seem strange to me.
In december 1942 and in february 1943 a german test pilot could only flew one of the two first prototypes of G55 (MM491 and MM492). 
Both two were equipped with an original DB 605 engine and a VDM propeller. The G55 was equipped with the Fiat RA1050 RC58 and the Piaggio P.2001 propeller only from the first pre-production aircraft, the MM493.
Nor that this thing can make the difference, since the two engines, at that time, had the same limitation at 2600 RPM. 
The differences in prestations from the G55 to the C.205 and Bf 109G6, showed in tests made with the full load, were due almost entirely to the very heavy war load of that aircraft, (560 l of fuel, sufficient for 1200 km of range, compared to 460 l of the C.205 and 400 l of the Bf 109. 760 rounds for the three 20 mm guns, compared to the 400 rounds of the C.205, for two 20mm guns, and the 150 rounds, for a single 20mm gun, of the Bf 109).
Not a surprise that it was choosen as the more adapt to fit a DB 603. Probably it was a bit too heavy for the DB 605A from the beginning.


----------



## Dogwalker (May 19, 2006)

As I said, many italian pilots flew both C 205 and Bf 109G, but the contrary was not so rare too. Several German pilots, for different reasons, flew C.205, especially that of JG77.
This is a letter written by one of them, Albert Ullrich (don't know the grade), found by Sergio Costagli, after an article about the sourvivants of the crew of the the B24 “Yankee Doodle Dandy” (shot down on 11/11/1943 near Andonno) appeared in the magazine "La Guida", (a poor translation of mine):

"Thanks Mr. Costagli for your letter, that brought me back to the tragic events of the war.
...
At that time I was part of the 6th Group of the JG77 Luftflotte2, assigned to the airport of Grangia, near Saluzzo (...) my task was to instruct the Italian pilots to the radar-guided flight and interception. My Group was equipped with the italian fighter Macchi 205," (23 C.205 were assigned by the ANR to this school) "I remember that we had several problems with the radio equipement, cause it was not compatible with the new german electrical parts, necessaries for the new task. 
The morning of 11 november the alarm was given by the launch of a orange rocket. The squadron was composed of 5 Macchi, under the command of cpt. Ahlers, the takeoff happened shortly before noon.
After less than half an hour I saw toward south the condensation clouds of the engines: it was a isolated enemy bomber. Due to the absence of radio communications we cannot organize the hunting, so we approached mantaining the formation, in order to understand the intentions of the enemy.
I remember the shape of the big bomber, and the tracers, when it began to shoot with all the weapons.
We broke the formation immediately, while I tried to explain, with gestures, to the captain my intention to make a frontal attack from above. The attack was succesful: with the first passage I hit an engine, that caught fire, then, I made a second passage. I remember the vibration of my fighter while the two 20mm mauser were shooting, I think that some of my companions hit the bomber in the tail too. The action lasted little, various members of the crew bailed out, then, the Liberator fell near Cuneo.
That was my first victory. I remember I offered to drink to my companions at Saluzzo, at the "Corona Grossa" hotel, where the elder officers were lodged. Unfortunately my permanence at Grangia lasted little: only from 10 to 28 november 1943. 
I wish the best to you for your further research."

Albert Ullrich in his C.205




www.bombardments.org

A mixed formation




www.paolopizzi.com


----------

