# Bournemouth raid 1943.



## Wildcat (Jan 13, 2008)

Gents, looking for info on the Luftwaffe raid against Bournemouth on the 23rd of May 1943. Could someone tell me what unit(s) were involved? (Fw190's made the attack), German losses and what was their target?
I ask because Bournemouth was the locations of 11 PDRC (Personnel Despatch and Recieving Centre) which was the receiving station for RAAF aircrew arriving in the UK. From what I can gather six RAAF airmen plus many civilians were killed in the raid. Was this a delibrate attack on RAAF personnel or were they simply in the way of a more important target?


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## pbfoot (Jan 13, 2008)

Wildcat said:


> Gents, looking for info on the Luftwaffe raid against Bournemouth on the 23rd of May 1943. Could someone tell me what unit(s) were involved? (Fw190's made the attack), German losses and what was their target?
> I ask because Bournemouth was the locations of 11 PDRC (Personnel Despatch and Recieving Centre) which was the receiving station for RAAF aircrew arriving in the UK. From what I can gather six RAAF airmen plus many civilians were killed in the raid. Was this a delibrate attack on RAAF personnel or were they simply in the way of a more important target?


It was also used for the same purpose by the RCAF(and much hated as it was run by those who thought we were colonials) the targets being the Hotels or Pubs where the aicrew gathered I'm try to determine how many RCAF guys were killed 
from some source 

"At times these were ME10-9 fighter bombers, but the favorite attacker was the Focke-Wulf 190. They operated out of a number of airfields in the vicinity of Cherbourg and Caen. The pay-load was a 500 kilogram bomb carried under the fuselage. Their objective was to hit the railway, stations or gas depots, but other inviting targets were the hotels of the Bournemouth and Torquay where the German Command knew the Canadian Airmen were billeted. 

For the most part they were young, recently graduated officers and NCOs awaiting posting to operational Training Units or active Squadrons. The time usually chosen for an attack was lunch time or tea time when most everyone was eating or relaxing. 

On May 23, 1943, the peacefulness of a beautiful Sunday morning was abruptly shattered when 22 German aircraft, led by Leutnant Leopold Wenger, conducted their most audacious raid on Bournemouth. The Kingsway Hotel, the Congressional Church and Beales Department Store sustained significant bomb damage, but at the Landsdowne Circle the Metropole Hotel was virtually destroyed when it took a direct hit. 

Casualties were high. Among the 128 killed that day were 51 service men.


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## Goodrapid (Jan 14, 2008)

Sounds like that attack was quite cost-effective then, although deplorable.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Jan 14, 2008)

Thanks for the grim story, never heard it before.


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## Wildcat (Jan 14, 2008)

Thanks for that info Pb. I wasn't aware the RCAF used the same location, obviously a tempting target for the Germans and a wake up call for the many young and eager aircrew waiting to get on operations. Do you know of any German losses? I have read a first hand account from someone who was there and he stated some were shot down by AA and one or two by the RAF.


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## Hop (Jan 14, 2008)

> Was this a delibrate attack on RAAF personnel or were they simply in the way of a more important target?



I think it was just a bit of luck for the Germans. The tip and run raids sometimes had specific military targets, sometimes they targeted shipping, other favourite targets were city centres. Bournemouth was a typical city centre raid.

From an article in the RAF Airpower Journal by Sqd Ldr Chriss Goss:



> ‘Tip and run’ attacks would occur only on three more days in May 1943 and all attacks but one were devastating. On the 23rd
> of May, simultaneous lunchtime attacks were launched against Hastings and Bournemouth. At Hastings, anti-aircraft sites
> appeared to be the chosen targets but, for a change, these sites and the fighter standing patrol had received ample warning.
> The town was still bombed and the two German losses, one to a Typhoon, the other to anti-aircraft fire, occurred after the
> ...


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## mhuxt (Jan 14, 2008)

Try to get your hands on a copy of Chris Goss' "Luftwaffe Fighter Bombers Over Britain". I believe this attack, as well as many others, are described there in great detail, from both sides.

I used to have a copy, donated it to the local library ...


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## Wildcat (Jan 14, 2008)

Hop, thanks for the info mate, that pretty much outlined what I wanted to know. 
Cheers for the heads up on the book mhuxt.


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## Njaco (Jan 14, 2008)

I would be guessing that it would be aircraft from 10(J)./JG 26 and 10(J)./JG 2 as these were the jabostaffeln involved in these type of attacks in early 1943 - see the Great London Raid of 20 January 1943.

although according to this website:

World War 2 Awards.com - WENGER, Leopold

Lt. Leopold Wenger was awarded the KRIEGSORDEN DES DEUTSCHEN KREUZES IN GOLD on October 17th, 1943 as a member of 3./Schnelles Kampf-Geschwader 10. 

and just found this from:

Jagdgeschwader

We now have 10. (Jabo)/JG 26 was redesignated 10. (Jabo)/JG 54 on 17.2.43 and a new 10./JG 26 was formed 1.5.43 in Vitry from parts of II./JG 26. And 10.(Jabo)/JG 2 became part of the new IV./SKG 10 formed on 10.4.43 as did 10. (Jabo)/JG 54 which would match the unit Wenger was part of. The Gruppe was based at Cognac and flew Fw 190As.

So its possible that the unit involved would be IV./SKG 10 with Lt. Wenger leading.


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## mhuxt (Jan 15, 2008)

Hi Again Wildcat:

The wife suddenly scheduled in a visit to the local library after my previous post - lo and behold there was the book.

There's twelve-and-a-half pages on the events of 23 May 1943, including photographs and maps, and for both the attacks on Hastings and Bournemouth.

Hastings was attacked by 20 aircraft of II/SKG 10, with Bournemouth attacked by 26 from IV/SKG 10. One of 15./SKG 10was lost to AAA fire, flown by a fellow on his first operational flight. Seems another from the same Staffel was lost in an accident in France.

The book says accurate casualty figures are hard to come by, but gives 34 RAF and RCAF personnel killed or missing, 77 civilians, and an unknown number of US servicemen. It doesn't mention RAAF casualties.

The Luftwaffe said the raid was aimed at the railway station and factories: Lt Leopold Wenger was leading 13./SKG 10 and apparently told Chris Goss that the raid was against the town centre. There's even a shot from his plane. Not sure whether it's a guncam shot, however a woman who was standing on the roof of the hotel in the shot says the aircraft which she saw had been machine-gunning the town.

So, in answer to the original question, the raid doesn't seem to have been targeted specifically at service personnel.


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## Crumpp (Jan 15, 2008)

The German data shows daylight missions were socked in due to weather on the 23 May 1943.

You sure the dates are not wrong?


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## Wildcat (Jan 15, 2008)

Thanks for the replys fellas, some great info there. It's always interesting reading up on these lesser known events.
mhuxt, I did a search on the Australian War Memorial Honour roll and came up with 7 RAAF personnel killed, not 6 as I previously thought. All dates of death were given on the 23rd of May 43.
Again thanks for the info guys.


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## Crumpp (Jan 15, 2008)

> There's twelve-and-a-half pages on the events of 23 May 1943,



OK guys.

I understand what the Austrailain archives say. I also understand it is not convienant. IMHO, some dates are not correct.

I guess we can just ignore the fact the Germans records show no daylight air activity other than a recon of the English coast on 23 May 1943 due to weather! 

On the 30 May 1943 SKG 10 launched a large daylight raid into England. It would prove to be the last daylight raid on England by the unit.


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## mhuxt (Jan 15, 2008)

Pull ya head in.


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## pbfoot (Jan 15, 2008)

Crumpp said:


> The German data shows daylight missions were socked in due to weather on the 23 May 1943.
> 
> You sure the dates are not wrong?


Got the same dates up here


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## Crumpp (Jan 15, 2008)

I am just saying that is hard for the Germans to be bombing Bournemouth when their airplanes are not flying.


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## mhuxt (Jan 15, 2008)

Your document doesn't show that.


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## Njaco (Jan 15, 2008)

Is that from Tony Wood's site? Even he says that data is incomplete.

Here is another source that has German aircraft over England that day/night.

NE Diary 1939-45; Incidents 23rd/24th May 1943 to 9th September 1943

"Sunday, 23rd/Monday, 24th May 1943 N1359
The last major raid of the war in the North-East caused the highest death toll. In its 35th raid of the war and its 11th of appreciable dimensions, eleven PMs, sixty-seven HEs, nine firepot HEs and about 600 IBs fell on Sunderland causing widespread damage. Eighty-four people died and 221 were injured; among the dead were a group of joiners from Glasgow who were there to repair earlier bomb damage. Many casualties occurred when a PM landed on St George's Square. Three Public Shelters were hit; three died in the Bromarsh Shelter, North Bridge Street, five in Bonners Field Shelter, Monkwearmouth and thirteen in Lodge Terrace Shelter at Hendon. The Isolation Hospital (now Havelock Hospital) was evacuated because of an UXPM. Including those slightly damaged about 5,000 houses were involved in this last attack and, together with the attack of 15/16th May, about 15,000. The morale of the people is reported as excellent."

Somebody was flying over England.


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## Wildcat (Jan 15, 2008)

Yeah, I've also read an account from someone who was there, and he said the 23rd also.


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## Njaco (Jan 15, 2008)

Tried to find something on the weather and for what its worth found this :

RAF History - Bomber Command 60th Anniversary

"23 May 1943
12 Venturas of 487 Squadron bombed a power-station at Zeebrugge in the first operation for the squadron since its heavy losses on the Amsterdam raid 3 weeks earlier. The formation's bombs fell on to railway yards near the power-station, No aircraft were lost.

23/24 May 1943
After a 9-day break in major operations, Bomber Command dispatched 826 aircraft to Dortmund - a record number of aircraft in a 'non-1,000' raid so far in the war and the largest raid of the Battle of the Ruhr. The force comprised: 343 Lancasters, 199 Halifaxes, 151 Wellingtons, 120 Stirlings and 13 Mosquitos. 38 aircraft - 18 Halifaxes, 8 Lancasters, 6 Stirlings, 6 Wellingtons - were lost, 4.6 per cent of the force. *The Pathfinders marked the target accurately in clear weather conditions *and the ensuing attack proceeded according to plan. It was a very successful raid. Many industrial premises were hit, particularly the large Hoesch steelworks, which ceased production. Dortmund was not attacked in strength again by Bomber Command until exactly 1 year after this raid."

Before people's panties get bunched up I am aware that 1.) this is a night raid and 2) its over Germany probably hours after the Bournemouth raid. But it does make you wonder.


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## pbfoot (Jan 15, 2008)

Ideal weather for a low level strike on a coastal town under radar and clouds


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## Njaco (Jan 15, 2008)

And that may be the point. Erich will probably correct me, but these jabo raids on England in early 43 where done at low level across the Channel, sometimes at 10 feet - according to Caldwell. How much good weather do you need at that altitude? Excepting fog of course.


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## Hop (Jan 15, 2008)

According to Tony Wood's RAF/USAAF lists, 1 Squadron RAF (Typhoons) claimed a 190 south of Hastings on an "interception patrol" on the 23rd May. 

The weather was also clear enough for an anti shipping strike off Guernsey, which involved at least 2 squadrons of Spits and 1 of Whirlwinds. There may have been more squadrons involved, but the list only gives details of squadrons that made claims or suffered damage.

Wood's Luftwaffe lists only give details of claims, so a lack of entries only means the no claimed kills, not no operations.

Crumpp, can you post the records that show no German operations because of weather on that day?


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## Crumpp (Jan 15, 2008)

> "23 May 1943
> 12 Venturas of 487 Squadron bombed a power-station at Zeebrugge in the first operation for the squadron since its heavy losses on the Amsterdam raid 3 weeks earlier. The formation's bombs fell on to railway yards near the power-station, No aircraft were lost.



That's in Belgium. SKG 10 was in France.

Schnellkampfgeschwader 10



> How much good weather do you need at that altitude?



 

The term for that is "scud-running" and it one of the most dangerous things you can do. Weather definitively affects low level operations.

Scud running - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The GAF had a difficult time in IMC conditions. IMC requires a considerable amount of pilot training and experience to be proficient.



> 23/24 May 1943
> After a 9-day break in major operations, Bomber Command dispatched 826 aircraft to Dortmund - a record number of aircraft in a 'non-1,000' raid so far in the war and the largest raid of the Battle of the Ruhr. The force comprised: 343 Lancasters, 199 Halifaxes, 151 Wellingtons, 120 Stirlings and 13 Mosquitos. 38 aircraft - 18 Halifaxes, 8 Lancasters, 6 Stirlings, 6 Wellingtons - were lost, 4.6 per cent of the force. The Pathfinders marked the target accurately in clear weather conditions and the ensuing attack proceeded according to plan. It was a very successful raid. Many industrial premises were hit, particularly the large Hoesch steelworks, which ceased production. Dortmund was not attacked in strength again by Bomber Command until exactly 1 year after this raid."



This was a night operations. The night was clear and missions where flown.



> Before people's panties get bunched up



Are you a two year old and incapable of intelligent discussion? There exist's no other possiblity in your mind other than "someone's panties in a bunch".

How about some dates have been mixed up? Maybe the units have been mixed up? It's not SKG 10? How about if we pool our resources we might learn something? 

All I have done is point out a fact. On 23 May 1943 daylight operations for the French based GAF units were restricted. JG26 conducted the only operational flight in the region on the daily _evening_ recon of the English coast. Some administrative flights where conducted that transferred units. These flew in the opposite direction of England toward Northern Germany and clearer skies.


All the best,

Crumpp


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## mhuxt (Jan 15, 2008)

Crumpp said:


> How about some dates have been mixed up? Maybe the units have been mixed up? It's not SKG 10? How about if we pool our resources we might learn something?



No, no, no, and pot meet kettle.


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## Crumpp (Jan 15, 2008)

> The weather was also clear enough for an anti shipping strike off Guernsey, which involved at least 2 squadrons of Spits and 1 of Whirlwinds.



The 8th AF flew as well. However the Average Allied pilots had the training and experience to handle IMC conditions. 

The 8th AF High Altitude Missions where well above the weather. The weather was clear past Coastal France and into Germany.

As for the two Typhoons. They encountered FW190's at mid-day in the middle of the channel, 20NM South of Hastings. Who they could be, I don't know. 

Maybe they were Dora's?


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## Crumpp (Jan 15, 2008)

> No, no, no, and pot meet kettle.



Speak English and make sense or you will be ignored. Have you got an axe to grind with me?


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## mhuxt (Jan 15, 2008)

OK.

"There is no mistake about the date, or the unit. You yourself should look beyond your own sources if you wish to learn more."

Meantime, as you compose your apology to Njaco for the personal attack, you could look at Tony Woods' RAF file for 1943.


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## Njaco (Jan 15, 2008)

No apology needed. Just some of my post misconstrued.
The poor panties comment was directed towards Crump's point of it being a night mission....I posted:



> Before people's panties get bunched up I am aware that 1.) *this is a night raid* and 2) its over Germany probably hours after the Bournemouth raid.



But what I don't get is this:



> Crumpp... I am just saying that is hard for the Germans to be bombing Bournemouth when their airplanes are not flying.





> Crumpp....As for the two Typhoons. They encountered FW190's at mid-day in the middle of the channel, 20NM South of Hastings. Who they could be, I don't know.



I'm confused.


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## Crumpp (Jan 15, 2008)

> Meantime, as you compose your apology to Njaco for the personal attack,



What are you talking about? Are you on something?

    



> "There is no mistake about the date, or the unit.



Once again, SKG 10 was stationed in France. The units in France daylight operations were restricted due to weather. 


Look man, If you want to say it's otherwise you are free to do so. This shouldn't be an argument. It should be an informed discussion.

I think you have a hidden agenda and an axe to grind.

All the best,

Crumpp


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## Crumpp (Jan 15, 2008)

> I'm confused.



The Allied claims show two FW190's claimed 20NM South of Hastings at ~1258hrs-1325hrs on 23 May 1943. The other point is the weather severely curtailed GAF operations during the day for the French based units. 

It certainly does not preclude the possibility of other units conducting the mission nor the dates being confused.

I don't understand what is so hard about that to understand. If I was mistaken, I would simply say, "I am mistaken." It just so happens that instrument flight procedures during the war is a keen interest of mine. 

I have attached a simple explanation and approach plate. It will be familiar to an Instrument rated pilot of today.


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## Njaco (Jan 15, 2008)

I was only trying to show where you had made the point that nothing was flying GAF although there were two interceptions over the Channel.

I see your point about experience and I would agree. But these jabo units, including SKG 10 had been flying these missions at least since January (when they were jabostaffeln with JG 26 and JG 2.). I would conclude they had some experienced pilots among them.

Weather does affect at all levels but it must have been just enough for them to fly this mission. Attacks were made.

I have no problem saying I'm mistaken. But when things aren't crystal clear I can only guess.



> It certainly does not preclude the possibility of other units conducting the mission nor the dates being confused.



No problem. I had to adjust because you started out pointedly saying nothing the GAF had was flying that day. It seems now that 1), other units may have been flying, 2) weather conditions were poor (although I still haven't seen any reports to verify that) so that some units could not fly.

But it looks to me that some German unit attacked Bournemouth. South of Hastings could put a course for Bournemouth, they are on the same coast, not all that far away. I am not holding to SKG only in the respect that the first post mentioned a Lt. Wenger who was with that unit.



> It will be familiar to an Instrument rated pilot of today.



Sorry to dash hopes, but I am neither a pilot not instrument rated. Just one of those detested Government workers.


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## Crumpp (Jan 15, 2008)

> But these jabo units, including SKG 10 had been flying these missions at least since January



May was the last month they conducted daylight raids. They conducted a large raid on the 30th of May. This was also their last daylight raid.



> I would conclude they had some experienced pilots among them.
> 
> Weather does affect at all levels but it must have been just enough for them to fly this mission.



Scud-running is very dangerous. Scud-running through a barrage balloon field over territory you are unfamiliar with the man-made obstacles like tower’s is suicide. Those experienced German pilots would have quickly recognized this fact.

It does not make sense at this point. If you were a pilot I think this would be much clearer. 

I am not saying that to push you away from the discussion or invalidate your views. You don’t have to be a pilot to discuss WWII History. I think some practical experience would lend some insight though.



> Attacks were made.



Do you think this is in dispute?

The question is WHEN and by WHO.

All the best,

Crumpp


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## Njaco (Jan 15, 2008)

We seem to be editing too much.   

I will say here and now I was mistaken if your contention is that the unit or units involved are unknown and on what date. My understanding since the beginning was that you believed no aircraft had made an attack. My bad.

I am no expert. I was just trying to help with a few points on which unit it could have been. I bow to much superior knowledge around here and don't sit myself on a pedastal. 

Do you have any theories on what unit it would have been? I'll check my references for bases, aircraft and such. Might give a clue.


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## Crumpp (Jan 15, 2008)

I think either the date is confused with the raid most likely taking place on 30 May 1943 if it was SKG 10.

Another real possibility for the 26th of May is SG101 out of Rhiems. The weather was clearer towards the German border and the Typhoon encounter is almost a direct line between Rheims and Bournemouth.


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## Hop (Jan 15, 2008)

Crumpp, I'll ask again what evidence you have that the weather was too bad for the Germans to fly.

The evidence _for_ the raid on that day:

Chris Goss. His account of the double raid on Bournemouth and Hastings.

The RAF claims on Tony Woods site. The claim for a 190 south of Hastings matches Goss' account of two 190s lost from the Hastings raid, 1 to flak, 1 to fighters.

There's an account at the BBC as part of their oral history programme:
BBC - WW2 People's War - Recalling Fallen Comrades [M.Shnider]

He mentions 2 Canadians killed in the bombing, David Chalmers and William Abbott. If you go to the Commonwealth war graves site you can search for both men. 

David Chalmers - killed 23 rd May 1943, buried Bournemouth.
CWGC :: Casualty Details

William Abbott - killed 23rd May 1943, buried Bournemouth.
CWGC :: Casualty Details

Searching for those two names brought up the following the following book on Google: The Maw: Searching for the Hudson

It says 21 Canadians were killed, but only nine of them are on the page previewed by Google. 2 of the nine were Chalmers and Abbott who I've already listed, the others entries at the Commonwealth War Graves site:

George Assaf CWGC :: Casualty Details

Robert Courtney
CWGC :: Casualty Details

Earle Gilbert 
CWGC :: Casualty Details

Alexander Matheson
CWGC :: Casualty Details

Francis Matier 
CWGC :: Casualty Details

Raymond Pelrine
CWGC :: Casualty Details

Julian Soos
CWGC :: Casualty Details

All died on 23rd May, all are buried in Bournemouth.

So Crumpp, what documents tell you that there were no German operations? There is _ample_ documentary evidence that the date of 23 May 1943 is correct, so far you have provided only a document showing the Jagdwaffe made no claims that day.


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## Crumpp (Jan 16, 2008)

> Crumpp, I'll ask again what evidence you have that the weather was too bad for the Germans to fly.



Jafu 2 orders.



> So Crumpp, what documents tell you that *there were no German operations?*



Why don't read the thread, Hop. Not reading it combined with sensationalism will get you ignored.


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## mhuxt (Jan 16, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> Ideal weather for a low level strike on a coastal town under radar and clouds



Actually, the weather was sunny over Hastings and Bournemouth, as per the eyewitness accounts.


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## Crumpp (Jan 16, 2008)

> as per the eyewitness accounts.



Here is some eyewitness accounts:


O'Hare Airport UFO Eyewitness Report

Bigfoot Eyewitness Sketches

NOVA Online | The Beast of Loch Ness | Eyewitness Accounts

Yale Law School | Eyewitness Testimony Doesn't Make It True--A Commentary by Steven B. Duke


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## mhuxt (Jan 16, 2008)

So, to sum up thus far, you believe neither the people who witnessed the attack take place in good weather, nor the allied authorities who reported casuaulties on the 23rd.


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## Crumpp (Jan 16, 2008)

> So, to sum up thus far, you believe neither the people who witnessed the attack take place in good weather, nor the allied authorities who reported casuaulties on the 23rd.



 

No mhuxt. 

I just pointed out that eyewitness accounts from the opposite side of the channel do not invalidate Jafu 2's orders.

The first three links were humor. 

On a side note, this will help you understand the value of eyewitness testimony and its place.

Eyewitness Testimony

http://www.ncjrs.gov/nij/eyewitness/188678.pdf

Eyewitness testimony of the weather in England has no bearing on SKG 10 flying the mission. So no, my contention is not that the eyewitness accounts are wrong. It is just that they have no bearing on the German side of events or Jafu 2 Orders.

Additionally, it is entirely possible for any IFR conditions to have pockets of VFR weather. That more than likely is what happened.

Understand now? 

All the best,

Crumpp


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## mhuxt (Jan 16, 2008)

I take it then that you concede that Hastings and Bournemouth were attacked on the 23rd, and that statements such as "Germans records show no daylight air activity other than a recon of the English coast on 23 May 1943 due to weather!" and "I am just saying that is hard for the Germans to be bombing Bournemouth when their airplanes are not flying" are inaccurate at best.


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## Crumpp (Jan 16, 2008)

> I take it then that you concede that Hastings and Bournemouth were attacked on the 23rd, and that statements such as "Germans records show no daylight air activity other than a recon of the English coast on 23 May 1943 due to weather!" and "I am just saying that is hard for the Germans to be bombing Bournemouth when their airplanes are not flying" are inaccurate at best.



No, read the thread please and accurate quote what I say in this thread. My position is clearly outlined. You choose not to read or understand my position not me. Don't pick and choose selective quotes out of context to fit your interpretation. 

That is juvenile, flamer, gaming board argumentitive styles. Let's act like an adult, using logic and reason.

The context of the thread was about SKG 10. From the 9th posting in this thread:



> So its possible that the unit involved would be IV./SKG 10 with Lt. Wenger leading.



http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/bournemouth-raid-1943-a-11371.html#post312550



> Crumpp says:
> All I have done is point out a fact. On 23 May 1943 daylight operations for the French based GAF units were restricted. JG26 conducted the only operational flight in the region on the daily evening recon of the English coast. Some administrative flights where conducted that transferred units. These flew in the opposite direction of England toward Northern Germany and clearer skies.



Everyone seemed to agree that SKG 10 had to be the German unit. When I pointed out that there was a snag to the SKG 10 theory, it was convienantly ignored. 

Once the original posters attention was given however we quickly worked it out. 

SKG 10 could not have been a part of this raid unless it took place on a different day. 

All the best,

Crumpp


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## pbfoot (Jan 16, 2008)

I've seen lots of guys flying VMC in Imc weather and i assume in WW2 it was not as much of a concern . The weather could be IMC but if you have a ceiling of 1oo ft that is totally flyable over the channel mind you there is always the cumulus granite when not over the water


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## Crumpp (Jan 16, 2008)

> I've seen lots of guys flying VMC in Imc weather and i assume in WW2 it was not as much of a concern . The weather could be IMC but if you have a ceiling of 1oo ft that is totally flyable over the channel mind you there is always the cumulus granite when not over the water



What?

I am confused by your posting as it makes no sense to me. 

You realize that flight into IMC by a non-proficient pilots is one of the leading causes of death in aviation right?


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## Crumpp (Jan 16, 2008)

FAA report on VFR into IMC accidents:


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## pbfoot (Jan 16, 2008)

Crumpp said:


> What?
> 
> I am confused by your posting as it makes no sense to me.
> 
> You realize that flight into IMC by a non-proficient pilots is one of the leading causes of death in aviation right?


I'm saying that VMC is visual meteo Conditions if your ceiling is 100 feet and you fly at 89ft you are visual . I'm quite familiar with the difference in legal terms but I don't believe the boys waited at all times for 1000 and 3. It's 1943 wartime the limits used were probably very flexible ref the operational requirements.


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## Crumpp (Jan 16, 2008)

> I'm saying that VMC is visual meteo Conditions if your ceiling is 100 feet and you fly at 89ft you are visual .



Not really. This is fantasy in fact.

An airplane is traveling at a high rate of speed. This is what dictates our visual limitations.

You can see that even the most unrestricted airspace with the fewest obstacles; class G, still requires a minimum of 1 statue mile visibility to be considered VFR conditions. 

We have no distance restrictions in Class G but still must remain *clear* of any clouds.

VFR Minimums

Let's look at a typical instrument approach from the time period. You can clearly see the minimum approach altitude is 1300 feet. This means if the approach is performed correctly, the pilot will be at 1300 feet, 3.3NM from the cone. The pilot must then have a visual on the TDZE at minimum altitude or the approach cannot be performed.


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## Wildcat (Jan 16, 2008)

For what its worth here is part of the passage from the book "Hatching an Air Force" by Peter Ilbery, which prompted me to ask the questions in the first place.


> There was to be a Sunday he would not forget, the date being fixed years later by the death of Flight Sergeant Kerrigan. It was 23 May 1943. Early that afternoon he was enjoying the outlook over the channel when he saw a cloud of spray approaching very quickly. From it emerged a flight of FW 190s which did a climbing turn and descended onto the centre of Bournemouth strafing and bombing


Am I wrong to assume this indicated clear weather, as he was "enjoying the outlook over the channel" and was able to see the FW's approaching at very low level?


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## Crumpp (Jan 16, 2008)

Even modern precision approaches have limitations. For example, KISM ILS-15 requires a 282ft and 3/4 mile visiability minimums to perform the approach.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0713/05793IL15.PDF

They did not have the benefit of precision approach during the war.

Precision means both heading and glideslope signals are used.

All the best,

Crumpp


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## Crumpp (Jan 16, 2008)

> Am I wrong to assume this indicated clear weather, as he was "enjoying the outlook over the channel" and was able to see the FW's approaching at very low level?



Read the whole thread please before contributing. It will cut down on the "stupid factor" so we do not have to cover the same ground when the page turns! That gets tiresome quickly.

Thanks.

 



Crumpp said:


> No mhuxt.
> 
> I just pointed out that eyewitness accounts from the opposite side of the channel do not invalidate Jafu 2's orders.
> 
> ...


----------



## pbfoot (Jan 16, 2008)

Crumpp said:


> Not really. This is fantasy in fact.
> 
> An airplane is traveling at a high rate of speed. This is what dictates our visual limitations.
> 
> ...


Having a few thousand PAR?GCA runs under my belt I know the rules all I'm saying is I'll bet on many occasions the rules went out the door. There was an American Airline that used to claim visual on the aerodrome the WX was 200 and 1/2 but to save fuel(bonus for fuel consumption from the carrier) they used to call visual cut the approach short 2-3 mile turn on pick up the ILS and continue .Who the hell is the controller to tell him what or what he cannot see.


----------



## Crumpp (Jan 16, 2008)

> I'll bet on many occasions the rules went out the door.



The problem with that line of thinking and airplanes is that the rules are not made to keep you from having a bit of fun.

They are in place simply to keep the pilot alive. So while the few success make for some spectacular tales for the telling, those that are not successful are dead. We only get to hear a small sample and only from the successful ones.



> There was an American Airline that used to claim visual on the aerodrome the WX was 200 and 1/2 but to save fuel(bonus for fuel consumption from the carrier) they used to call visual cut the approach short 2-3 mile turn on pick up the ILS and continue .Who the hell is the controller to tell him what or what he cannot see.
> __________________



Nice story. I would put this right up with urban legend and myth.

Landing a large cargo jet takes a considerable amount of both skill and planning. If you screw it up, you are dead.

Take a C9 in standard conditions for example, at 70,000lbs our threshold speed is Vref+5 or 112KIAS with flaps/slats. 

Our V2 or take off safety speed in the C9 is 119 KIAS at 70,000lbs. Jets are thrust limited at low velocity. It takes all of our thrust to maintain our 112 KIAS and we have no more thrust available to devote to increasing speed. Only a configuration change to lower drag can give us the thrust required to make take off safety speed.

You can see why the go around in a large transport jet can be problematic and requires prior planning. 

It's called the "Sabre Dance" and generally a symptom of early rotation. It will happen in any jet that is behind the power curve.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOamnWpLtO8_

All the best,

Crumpp


----------



## Crumpp (Jan 16, 2008)

> Who the hell is the controller to tell him what or what he cannot see.



The controller does not tell you a thing about approach minimums. That is published on the plate and for you as the PIC to follow. 

*You* can try violating them _in your airplane _and _your life if you want._

All the best,

Crumpp


----------



## pbfoot (Jan 16, 2008)

Crumpp said:


> The controller does not tell you a thing about approach minimums. That is published on the plate and for you as the PIC to follow.
> 
> *You* can try violating them _in your airplane _and _your life if you want._
> 
> ...


I was the controller . Maybe I'll get you to tell me about an aural null approach or one using the AI radar


----------



## evangilder (Jan 16, 2008)

Crumpp said:


> Read the whole thread please before contributing. It will cut down on the "stupid factor" so we do not have to cover the same ground when the page turns! That gets tiresome quickly.
> 
> Thanks.



Tone it down, Crumpp. Wildcat _started _this thread and was clarifying his question.


----------



## Crumpp (Jan 16, 2008)

> I was the controller . Maybe I'll get you to tell me about an aural null approach or one using the AI radar



The controller does not tell you a thing about approach minimums. The PIC is responsible for the safe conduct of the flight.

Radar approach minimums which the PIC is responsible for maintaining:

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0713/SE2RAD.PDF

If it is a no gyro approach, your airline crew would be total idiots to disregard the tower as it is the tower calling all the shots for the approach. Using VOX, the tower puts you on glide path and heading. 

PAR is used for emergencies such as vacuum pump failure.

I would say that was a really narrow example that is not applicable to any WWII flying and quite rare to the majority of aviation today.

Long story short, the Airline crew story is one big fish tail.

All the best,

Crumpp


----------



## mhuxt (Jan 17, 2008)

Wildcat said:


> For what its worth here is part of the passage from the book "Hatching an Air Force" by Peter Ilbery, which prompted me to ask the questions in the first place.
> 
> Am I wrong to assume this indicated clear weather, as he was "enjoying the outlook over the channel" and was able to see the FW's approaching at very low level?



No, I don't think you're wrong. Several of the accounts in the book talk about nice weather - off the top of my head I think one mentions it being a day like summer should be, or something similar. I donn't have the book in front of me right now, so that may actually have been one of the comments on the People's War site. Will check later.


----------



## Crumpp (Jan 17, 2008)

> No, I don't think you're wrong. Several of the accounts in the book talk about nice weather - off the top of my head I think one mentions it being a day like summer should be, or something similar. I donn't have the book in front of me right now, so that may actually have been one of the comments on the People's War site. Will check later.







> *Additionally, it is entirely possible for any IFR conditions to have pockets of VFR weather. That more than likely is what happened.*




Is this confusing to anyone?


----------



## Njaco (Jan 17, 2008)

To clear it up alittle, I hypothesized that it was SKG 10 based on Pb's post about a Lt. Leoplold Wenger leading the flight. It could have been another unit.

I have found out that a Malcolm V. Lowe, author of several warbird books including one on the Fw 190, was taking personal experiences of that day to write a book about it. Haven't found out if its completed or not.


----------



## mhuxt (Jan 17, 2008)

Wildcat said:


> For what its worth here is part of the passage from the book "Hatching an Air Force" by Peter Ilbery, which prompted me to ask the questions in the first place.
> 
> Am I wrong to assume this indicated clear weather, as he was "enjoying the outlook over the channel" and was able to see the FW's approaching at very low level?



Yeah, just skimming the book, the official report for Bournemouth says it was brilliant sunshine, one of the witnesses says beautiful clear day, another a bright sunny day, another beautiful warm sunny, etc.

The 1 Sqn pilot (Hastings) says fine, sunny, slight haze:


The official report for Bournemouth says 6-12 miles visibility.



Your initial post also asked about losses - will try to scan them in and post tomorrow, no guarantees though as various family things have to be taken care of.


----------



## mhuxt (Jan 17, 2008)

Njaco said:


> To clear it up alittle, I hypothesized that it was SKG 10 based on Pb's post about a Lt. Leoplold Wenger leading the flight. It could have been another unit.
> 
> I have found out that a Malcolm V. Lowe, author of several warbird books including one on the Fw 190, was taking personal experiences of that day to write a book about it. Haven't found out if its completed or not.



Chris Goss lists Wenger as 13 St Kap sometime March - June 1943, doesn't say whether he was leading the Bournemouth attack, however he's got a pic taken by Wenger as he flew towards the Cumberland Hotel.


----------



## Hop (Jan 17, 2008)

> To clear it up alittle, I hypothesized that it was SKG 10 based on Pb's post about a Lt. Leoplold Wenger leading the flight. It could have been another unit.



Chris Goss says 20 aircraft from II/SKG 10 hit Hastings, at the same time 26 aircraft from IV/SKG 10 hit Bournemouth. 

Goss says the two 190s lost on the Hastings raid were flown by Adam Fischer and Herbert Dobroch. Both were listed as missing (their bodies have never been found)

Either Goss is wrong, or Crumpp is. Considering Goss even has names for the German pilots killed, I'd say Crumpp is the one making the mistake.

Regarding the weather, Goss quotes the official British report on the raid:



> Enemy aircraft approached from the South East in brilliant sunshine across the line of flight.





> Crumpp, I'll ask again what evidence you have that the weather was too bad for the Germans to fly.
> Jafu 2 orders.



Can you post them?



> So Crumpp, what documents tell you that there were no German operations?
> Why don't read the thread, Hop. Not reading it combined with sensationalism will get you ignored.



Crumpp, I'm sorry, but I'm finding it hard to keep track of your position. You seemed to be arguing that there were no attacks on the 23rd. For example:



> I am just saying that is hard for the Germans to be bombing Bournemouth when their airplanes are not flying.



Now if your position has changed, it would be helpful if you would say so, then people could understand what your latest claim is.


----------



## Wildcat (Jan 17, 2008)

Guys, some great info being shared about this raid and I appreciate the effort some of you have gone to. Keep it coming! This is the reason I come to this site, to learn.
Crumpp, your reply to my post was unwarrented and unwelcome, your arrogance has been duly noted. Whether the Fw 190 pilots had to fly part of the way on instruments or not is irrelevent in my mind, the fact remains that they reached their target, bombed it, sustained some casualties and made it home. This is the information that I, and I suspect others, are interested in. If you want to discuss/argue about VFR/IFR flying/landings go and create a new thread, I'm sure others will take a keen interest in it as well.


----------



## Crumpp (Jan 17, 2008)

> Crumpp, your reply to my post was unwarrented and unwelcome, your arrogance has been duly noted.




Wow! Don't even pretend to preach. You ever think that you not reading my post were unwelcome? You know one guy doing that is a nuisance; an entire thread of people doing it is a real pain.

If you would have just bothered to read my position, this would be a great discussion. Instead what is happening is an internet argument tactic were every time the page turns, it get's restated into a ridicules claim that has nothing to do with the facts. 

The whole IFR/VFR discussion was only brought about because of claims about what is possible or likely that just stem from ignorance. This is not meant to hurt anyone's feelings. It is just fact. The purpose was to educate so that a discussion of the facts could take place.

Then we have Hops post. Typical of the behavior in this thread and a common gamer’s tactic. This is what at least the 4th time I have had to state my position and he still does not understand it? 

Why? He does not care what my position really is and only wants to create a perception of "winning" some position of his own fantasy. It's not a serious examination of history or discussion. It's completely something else where facts and history are irrelevant. The only point is winning.



> You seemed to be arguing that *there were no attacks* on the 23rd. For example:





> then people could understand what your latest claim is.



It has not changed since the beginning of the thread.



> From Page 2:
> 
> How about some dates have been mixed up? Maybe the units have been mixed up? It's not SKG 10? How about if we pool our resources we might learn something?





> Page 3:
> It certainly does not preclude the possibility of other units conducting the mission nor the dates being confused.



Regarding attacks:



> The question is WHEN and by WHO.



Explanations offered for discussion that fit the facts. Funny the majority of the participants in this thread would rather ignore this and continue to state their fantasy version of what they think is my position:



> Crumpp says:
> I think either the date is confused with the raid most likely taking place on 30 May 1943 if it was SKG 10.
> 
> Another real possibility for the 26th of May is SG101 out of Rhiems. The weather was clearer towards the German border and the Typhoon encounter is almost a direct line between Rheims and Bournemouth.



Page 3 again, about witnesses and weather:



> Eyewitness testimony of the weather in England has no bearing on SKG 10 flying the mission. So no, my contention is not that the eyewitness accounts are wrong. It is just that they have no bearing on the German side of events or Jafu 2 Orders.



Since page 3 this thread has been about having to constantly point out that I have never made the claim in context of:



> *You seemed to be arguing that there were no attacks on the 23rd. *



Once again. It is hard for SKG10 to be the unit when they are not flying that day according Jafu 2.


SKG 10 and SG101, as well as every other ground attack unit in the Luftwaffe on the Western Front were involved in a sustained ground attack campaign against England.



> Chris Goss says 20 aircraft from II/SKG 10 hit Hastings, at the same time 26 aircraft from IV/SKG 10 hit Bournemouth.



Well Jafu 2 orders are different. Maybe Chris Goss can tell them. It certainly wouldn't be the first time an author made an error. 



> To clear it up alittle, I hypothesized that it was SKG 10 based on Pb's post about a Lt. Leoplold Wenger leading the flight. It could have been another unit.



This is a complete waste of time and I will never get that time back. Good discussing things with you Najco. I wish you luck in your research. I will leave you to the kiddies.


All the best,

Crumpp


----------



## Crumpp (Jan 17, 2008)

> Bournemouth says it was brilliant sunshine,



No it says Sunny and haze.

Big difference.


----------



## Crumpp (Jan 17, 2008)

> IFR producers are fog, low clouds,* haze*, smoke, blowing obstructions to vision, and precipitation.





> Haze is a concentration of salt particles or other dry particles not readily classified as dust or other phenomenon. It occurs in stable air, is usually only a few thousand feet thick, but sometimes may extend as high as 15,000 feet. Haze layers often have definite tops above which horizontal visibility is good. However, downward visibility from above a haze layer is poor, especially on a slant. Visibility in haze varies greatly depending upon whether the pilot is facing the sun. Landing an aircraft into the sun is often hazardous if haze is present.



Aviation weather -Common IFR Procedures *

All typical behaviors of frontal weather systems.


----------



## Njaco (Jan 17, 2008)

Crumpp, if you have the Jafu 2 orders do they mention any other unit flying? On that date? My apolodies if you have posted this (not wont to re-read pages of posts  ) I know III./JG 26 was transferring to Nordholz from the area.

If it wasn't SKG 10, maybe we can narrow it down. 

Just curious. mhuxts 2nd pic for 1300 hours mentions 2 aircraft brought down by AA. I know you have the typhoons taking out 2 Fws. On your list from Tony Wood does it mention when the typhoons did that? Possibly the same Fws?

Isn't research fun!


----------



## evangilder (Jan 17, 2008)

Crumpp said:


> Wow! Don't even pretend to preach. You ever think that you not reading my post were unwelcome? You know one guy doing that is a nuisance; an entire thread of people doing it is a real pain.
> 
> Crumpp



This is EXACTLY what I was talking about for you to tone this down. Wildcat has been a member of this forum for a long time. I asked you to tone it down, yet you continue. For this, you are getting an infraction.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2008)

And you will not call members of this forum kiddies!

Just because some people dont have the knowledge that you have, does not give you the right to talk down to them or insult them.

You have a world of knowledge but you think you are better than everyone else. 

If you dont tone it down then you can find some "kiddies" to talk with someplace else!


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## mhuxt (Jan 17, 2008)

Njaco said:


> I know you have the typhoons taking out 2 Fws. On your list from Tony Wood does it mention when the typhoons did that?



The Tony Wood list actually only has one claim by Typhoons:

Claim 23.05.43 F/Sgt. W.H. Ramsey	11 Group	1 Sqn.	1 - 0 - 0	FW 190	13.15: 5-15 sm. S. Hastings

I've posted part of it above - will try to get the rest of it up here, might have some bandwidth issues.

All of Tony Wood's stuff can be found here:

http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/tonywood.htm

The file that's relevant to this discussion is about halfway down; "RAF US Fighter Commands - with annotated text. Issue I 1943".


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## Njaco (Jan 17, 2008)

Thanks, mhuxt. I actually downloaded the pdf file and I thought I saw two claimed but I'll have to download again as I have somehow deleted the file!  

That just caught my eye is all.

Still digging as this is interesting. Found several facts. III./JG 26 was moving to Nordholz from Welveghem (one source) although another says it was the 15th.

And a Fw made an emergency landing in Denmark, unit unknown. So I'm tending to believe that regardless of weather conditions Ops were still conducted, although I've only found transfers and recon.


----------



## mhuxt (Jan 18, 2008)

Hi:

Losses for SKG 10 on the day:



Sources used:


----------



## Njaco (Jan 18, 2008)

Mhuxt, I also checked units on the Western front - 

Units that had Fw 190: Alfred Price. Luftwaffe Data Book, 1997
May '43 Luftflotte 3: 

Stab/JG 2 
I/JG 2 
II/JG 2 
III/JG 2 

Stab/JG 26
II/JG 26
III/JG 26

11. (Jabo)/JG 54

Stab/SKG 10
I/SKG 10
II/SKG 10
IV/SKG 10

also:

11.(Jabo)/JG 54 - In Luftflotte 3 until 5.43, In 6.43 became 11./JG26. From 9.43, see III./JG26.

Stab/SKG 10 - Formed 1.12.42 in St. André. On 18.10.43 redesignated Stab/SG10. 0perated from Amsterdam-Schiphol, 3.43 - 6.43, North Africa afterwards (10.43) 

I/SKG 10 - Amsterdam-Schiphol (St. André) until 10.43, Rosieres until 9.3.44, Amy until 13.5.44

II/SKG 10 - Rennes-St. Jacques until 11.6.43

IV/SKG 10 - Cognac until 15.6.43, Italy until 9.43, Coulommiers until 10.43


I couldn't find any other jabo units in the West flying the Fw 190 in that area except for SKG 10 and 11.(Jabo)/JG 54. But I did find something interesting on one site that repeated the Hastings book and added:
"Canoe, Hunt, Fish, and Fly," ... by Otterflogger - Dr. Maurice Shnider, One of "Our Finest"!
"As a matter of interest, that Messerchmitt was pursued towards France by two RAF Spitfires and shot down over the Channel. I discovered that Christopher Gloss, an aviation writer and historian who lives outside of London, is completing a book on the tip-and-run raids over Southern England.

Shortly after my return to Canada, I left a phone message on his line and I was pleasantly surprised when he called back within the hour. I had a delightful chat with him and I can't wait to obtain his book.

In the process of researching his book, Mr. Gloss had corresponded with Lieutenant Wenger's brother in Austria. He obtained a picture of a hotel on the East Overcliff Drive taken from the cockpit of the Focke-Wulf 190 as it swooped in from the Channel at roof-top level. This hotel was later identified as the Cumberland, which is only two doors away from the Cottonwood where I was first billeted in January 1943.

As a footnote Mr. Gloss learned that the enemy pilot was awarded the Knight's Cross for bravery in January 1945 and was killed three months later when his aircraft was shot down by the Russians."

And from a German site:
"Since May 01, 1943, he was Staffelkapitaen of the 13./SKG 10. Awarded Ritterkreuz on 14 January 1945. Lt Leopold 'Poldi' Wenger fell on 10 April 1945 during an air battle over Vienna."


So from your pic it seems Ofw. Dobroch 5(?)./SKG 10 was shot down by Sgt. Ramsey and Uffz. Schmidt of 15./SKG 10 and Fw. Fisher of 6./SKG 10 were shot down by flak. Conforms to the bomb location pic and claims.

Interesting to note that the FW from 11./SKG was damaged at Amiens while taxiing for an _operational _mission.

Every account - at least from England - says sunny day. Still checking.


----------



## mhuxt (Jan 18, 2008)

Hi Njaco:

Yep, Goss (Gloss...) has several excerpts from Wenger's diary, along with many photos taken in action by Lt. Wenger. In the acknowledgements, there's mention of a Herr W. Wenger; I suppose this is the brother.

The pic of the Cumberland hotel, which is described in your quote, appears in the book.

There's also a pic (looks like it was taken at the time) of Streich's grave marker, with unit and date, and the VDK (basically the German version of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission) lists Schmidt as resting in the cemetery in Cannock Chase, died 23 May '43. Apparently his diary was recovered at the time - he's the poor chap who was on his first operational sortie. Must have been flying tail-end Charlie...


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## Njaco (Jan 18, 2008)

I definately have to increase my library! Great stuff.


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## SeaSkua (Jan 19, 2008)

Wildcat said:


> I ask because Bournemouth was the locations of 11 PDRC (Personnel Despatch and Recieving Centre) which was the receiving station for RAAF aircrew arriving in the UK. From what I can gather six RAAF airmen plus many civilians were killed in the raid. Was this a delibrate attack on RAAF personnel or were they simply in the way of a more important target?



Why would they have the receiving station there? Wouldn't it be better to put it AWAY from POSSIBLE attacks?


----------



## pbfoot (Jan 19, 2008)

SeaSkua said:


> Why would they have the receiving station there? Wouldn't it be better to put it AWAY from POSSIBLE attacks?


Lots of accomodation for for incoming aircrew from Canada and Australia as its a sea side resort


----------



## mhuxt (Jan 19, 2008)

Here's the remainder of the 1 Squadron Combat Report.



From "the coast just east of Rye" to the centre of Hastings is about 8 or 9 miles.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 20, 2008)

Sure looks like the Luftwaffe was flying on the 23rd and Crumpp is a freakin moron...


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## Njaco (Jan 20, 2008)

mhuxt, great stuff. Where are you getting this? Is it scanned from a book?


----------



## Crumpp (Jan 20, 2008)

> Sure looks like the Luftwaffe was flying on the 23rd and Crumpp is a freakin moron...



Wow! 

Never claimed they were not flying but don’t let the truth stop you from making wild distortions.

In fact if you look at the same sources Goss uses, which I also have you will find a unit called SG101 listed that was outside of the weather restricted areas.

AFAIK, the Luftwaffe does not award any type of credit or make any distinction for "operational" taxing. A taxi accident is a taxi accident with no connection to "administrative" or "operational" flying.

Otherwise you could simply abort every mission before take off and get sortie credit.

I don't how many Luftwaffe aircraft you have worked on, restored or own but the few I have offer many more mysteries than they do answers regarding the history. 

The "tip and run" raiders are a very challenging research area and are not very well documented.


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 21, 2008)

Hmmmm..... 


les said:


> Sure looks like the Luftwaffe was flying on the 23rd and Crumpp is a freakin moron...





Crumpp said:


> Never claimed they were not flying but don’t let the truth stop you from making wild distortions.





Crumpp said:


> The German data shows daylight missions were socked in due to weather on the 23 May 1943.





Crumpp said:


> I guess we can just ignore the fact the Germans records show no daylight air activity





Crumpp said:


> I am just saying that is hard for the Germans to be bombing Bournemouth when their airplanes are not flying.





Crumpp said:


> On 23 May 1943 daylight operations for the French based GAF units were restricted. JG26 conducted the only operational flight in the region on the daily evening recon of the English coast.





Crumpp said:


> Once again, SKG 10 was stationed in France. The units in France daylight operations were restricted due to weather.





Crumpp said:


> The other point is the weather severely curtailed GAF operations during the day for the French based units.









Aint no fu*kin wild distortion as*hole, u base ur more knowledgeable opinion on one thing, Jafu2 orders.... Others here have supplied 8 times more than u, and u havent even posted any sort of quote/pic that backs up ur statement other than "saying so".... I guess ur word of mouth is more relevant and believable than a historians researched information....

Stick that sh!t up ur ass and spin.... Ur attitude in this thread is horssh!t, and I find ur presence here to be a waste of ur time and ours...


----------



## pbfoot (Jan 21, 2008)

Crumpp said:


> I don't how many Luftwaffe aircraft you have worked on, restored or own but the few I have offer many more mysteries than they do answers regarding the history.
> 
> .


1 thats flying 
But back on thread it seems the bombing of Bournemouth was a common occurence with the raids coinciding with meal times as they were aware the hotels were used as billets for the airmen. another successful was on June 6 42 with 5 killed


----------



## Crumpp (Jan 21, 2008)

Lets put it context:




Crumpp said:


> No, read the thread please and accurate quote what I say in this thread. My position is clearly outlined. You choose not to read or understand my position not me. Don't pick and choose selective quotes out of context to fit your interpretation.
> 
> That is juvenile, flamer, gaming board argumentative styles. Let's act like an adult, using logic and reason.
> 
> ...





> Others here have supplied 8 times more than u,



All the _evidence_ comes from the same source. Like I said, I have _most_ of the documents Chris Goss references. I don't see any smoking guns in them for SKG 10. I suppose you can hate me and personally attack me but that does not change what I see in the evidence.

In fact I wish it was different. Then I wouldn't be subjected to your personal attacks. I could say, “I was wrong! Learn something everyday and I am glad you guys helped me out!”



> Stick that sh!t up ur ass and spin.... Ur attitude in this thread is horssh!t, and I find ur presence here to be a waste of ur time and ours...



What are you a child?? You are indignant that I referred to you as a kiddy? Note that your response proves my point.


----------



## Crumpp (Jan 21, 2008)

> 1 thats flying



Which one?


----------



## Njaco (Jan 21, 2008)

> Then I wouldn't be subjected to your personal attacks.





> You are indignant that I referred to you as a kiddy?



ummm, whats the difference?


----------



## Crumpp (Jan 21, 2008)

> ummm, whats the difference?



The difference is generalization vs specifics. I simply stated that some of the behaviors exhibited in these internet arguments are childish.

No where did I personally call the "Minister of Whoopass" a child until his behavior made it obvious and did that for him.


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 22, 2008)

Crumppet said:


> All the evidence comes from the same source.


And urs doesnt???

It dont make a difference numbnuts, u fell into my trap... Now ur banned.... Ur attitude towards Senior Members here is unacceptable... U behavior to the Mods and Admins in PMs is unacceptable... 

Im sick and tired of ur sh!t on this board, so I went out of my way to agitate u to the point of being a cu*t to the wrong swingin dick... It worked and now ur gone....


----------



## mhuxt (Jan 22, 2008)

Njaco said:


> I definately have to increase my library! Great stuff.



Hi Njaco:

Some of the stuff is from Chris Goss’ research, the Combat Report I downloaded from the U.K. National Archives site, which has a library of CRs which can be downloaded (for a fee) from here:

The National Archives | DocumentsOnline | WW2 air combat reports

I see now however that the report is reproduced in the book, though without the introductory summary details.

The book really is a marvelous piece of work – it is full of photographs and original accounts, especially from the German side. I should stress that it’s the story primarily of the German units, as opposed to the story of the coastal towns under attack. It’s really aided by the presence of the diary of Lt Wenger, along with his letters home and pictures which he took, both on the ground and in the air. For 23rd May, as noted above, Lt Wenger wrote that the attack was against the centre of the town, that he faced light and heavy flak, and that he spotted four Spitfires, which did not however interfere. (These were likely Spitfires of 616 Squadron, who were scrambled but who failed to intercept.)

The book covers the history of daylight Jabo attacks against southern England up until the middle of 1943. The last of the SKG 10 attacks described took place on 4 June 1943 (IV SKG 10) and 6 June (II SKG 10). Lt Wenger took part in the 4 June attack, and his description of the attack on Eastbourne is included, as is the report from the air-raid authorities and information on the aircraft lost in the attack. This latter was piloted by the Gruppen Adjutant Oblt. Kurt Hevler, who was shot down onto marshland at Normans Bay. The June 6 operation was once again against Eastbourne, and here there is a diagram of the attack as well as information on the aircraft lost by 7/SKG 10.

The point is made that some daylight attacks continued to be carried out on a sporadic basis, using gunfire only.

I’m trying to upload the Hastings report for 23rd May, however that nice Mr. Trujillo and his impish minions are not cooperating (sorry, Aussie internet humour). It’s possible the 190 claimed by the 1 Sqn Typhoon was the single aircraft which is shown as having broken away to starboard, and therefore to the East, from which direction the Tiffies were already inbound (Rye lies to the east of Hastings).

I believe Chris Goss is continuing his work on the Luftwaffe Jabos, next book due mid-2008 IIRC.


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## Njaco (Jan 22, 2008)

Thanks mhuxt! I noticed Mr. Goss posts on another forum - in fact there is a thread about these attacks. I may post him and find more - once I can compose an intelligent question! 

Well, it looks like this is book #3 on the "Got to Have" list behind "Fighters in Tunisia" and the JG 300 books.

The gunfire aspect is interesting as when I searched for anything related to this there were a few websites from witnesses who stated that mostly the Fws just shot up the towns that were attacked. Doesn't seem to be an effect use of resources.


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## mhuxt (Jan 22, 2008)

Hi Njaco:

Looks like I've finally been able to upload the map of the Hastings attack on the 23rd:



As I say, the Tiffies were coming from the east, though whether or not they bounced the single 190 which peeled away to starboard, I don't know.


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## Njaco (Jan 22, 2008)

So this whole attack has been documented - witnesses, flight plans, bomb drops, etc. What was the b*tching earlier? Jeez!

Thanks.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 23, 2008)

Because you all were kiddies....


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## Njaco (Jan 23, 2008)




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## mhuxt (Jan 23, 2008)

Njaco said:


> What was the b*tching earlier?
> 
> Thanks.



To paraphrase The Matrix: "That, Mr. Njaco, was the sound of the inevitable."

No worries.


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## davparlr (Jan 24, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> Having a few thousand PAR?GCA runs under my belt I know the rules all I'm saying is I'll bet on many occasions the rules went out the door. There was an American Airline that used to claim visual on the aerodrome the WX was 200 and 1/2 but to save fuel(bonus for fuel consumption from the carrier) they used to call visual cut the approach short 2-3 mile turn on pick up the ILS and continue .Who the hell is the controller to tell him what or what he cannot see.



I have a lot of questions about this whole situation (why weren’t they flying the ILS to start with, were they on a procedure turn?). I don't see where fuel would be saved if they weren't on a procedure turn. Anyway, if the field was in sight, this is no problem. If it is not, I'll fly another airline. I don't want my pilots lying about conditions. As Crumpp has said, rules are made for a reason. Lots of people died to generate rules. I wouldn't doubt that some pilots would try this.




Crumpp said:


> The 8th AF flew as well. However the Average Allied pilots had the training and experience to handle IMC conditions.



It’s hard to imagine a German pilot with any experience at all not being very familiar and proficient with instrument flying since all of their flying is in Europe and in '43 many had several years experience with this weather. I suspect you could find many that were very good, and probably daring, at it. In war, IFR does not apply, only military operating procedures.

I know Crumpp has been removed but I do want to clarify some things about flying large cargo aircraft.



Crumpp said:


> Landing a large cargo jet takes a considerable amount of both skill and planning. If you screw it up, you are dead. Take a C9 in standard conditions for example, at 70,000lbs our threshold speed is Vref+5 or 112KIAS with flaps/slats.



Over the threshold means landing is assured and the flaps have been moved to the full down position and you are effectively slowing from final approach airspeed to touchdown. Flaps are never placed in this position until the pilot is “assured” that a safe landing is apparent. This position generates high drag and little lift so it is effectively air brakes for stopping. Prior to this, the aircraft is flown in the approach condition with approach flaps set, which is easily flyable and maneuverable. For slow, low altitude maneuvering, approach flaps are always deployed. None of this would apply to the American Airline approach example since they would have been configured for approach and not for landing when they were breaking off the approach.




> Our V2 or take off safety speed in the C9 is 119 KIAS at 70,000lbs. Jets are thrust limited at low velocity.



Thrust to weight of a C-9 at this configuration is .4 or about the same an F-86F at takeoff. Modern jets have plenty of power but you DO NOT try to climb until you have climb airspeed.



> It takes all of our thrust to maintain our 112 KIAS and we have no more thrust available to devote to increasing speed. Only a configuration change to lower drag can give us the thrust required to make take off safety speed.



I am not sure of what Crumpp is saying here (unfortunately Crumpp is gone before I could respond). He seems to be implying that, on approach, power is limited such that maneuver is impossible without reconfiguration (he is assuming the aircraft is in final configuration for landing). First, in a C-141 (three times the weight of a C-9), I have never used anything near takeoff rated thrust (TRT) on approach and landing and I highly doubt TRT is ever used on final for a C-9. I also have no doubt that, with TRT, or even normal rated thrust (NRT), and configured for landing, with flaps set at landing, that I could increase airspeed in level flight and climb, when climb airspeed was obtained. Of course, this applies at normal landing weights, at max gross weight, this would be sporty and TRT might be required. Second, for any maneuvering at low level other than landing assured, flaps are always placed in an approach setting. Normally, low and slow maneuvering is no problem. I have flown an at-minimums circling approach, fully configured with approach flaps (at Keflavik, Iceland) at 500 ft AGL (altitude above ground) and my only concern, other than basic aircraft control, was keeping the field in sight. 




> You can see why the go around in a large transport jet can be problematic and requires prior planning.



All go-arounds require prior planning. In a C-141, go-arounds were simple, Throttles at NRT, flaps approach, and let those magnificent TF33s eat huge chunks out of the air and accelerate to climb airspeed and then follow missed approach instructions (on the approach plate, which you had previously reviewed). If you are very slow, after throttles are reduced, settling on the runway may be required while you are accelerating, primarily due to engine speed up. Now, large heavy aircraft do take some special attention similar to that of a truck driver’s. It turns slower, climbs slower, accelerates slower (certainly unlike the T-38 that just jumps when you light the burners), etc. and therefore some more planning and patience is required. Once you become use to it, it is comes natural and not problematic.



> It's called the "Sabre Dance" and generally a symptom of early rotation. It will happen in any jet that is behind the power curve.



That is why it is important to maintain a safe airspeed unless landing is assured.


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## pbfoot (Jan 24, 2008)

I think I should clarify it was an american registered airline not AA the airline is no longer flying . I can't call the pilot a liar all I can go one is what was the wx and RVR etc he may of had the rwy visual but aircraft behind him and in front didn't and I had no windows . I'm sure in all the years flying you have observed someone stretching the truth , pilots are no different


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## davparlr (Jan 24, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> I think I should clarify it was an american registered airline not AA the airline is no longer flying . I can't call the pilot a liar all I can go one is what was the wx and RVR etc he may of had the rwy visual but aircraft behind him and in front didn't and I had no windows . I'm sure in all the years flying you have observed someone stretching the truth , pilots are no different



Most of the guys I flew with in the AF were pretty by-the-book pilots. I have read things about commercial pilot that make me wonder. I did work with a man who was a WWII B-26 pilot who commuted to work in Navion. The FAA was always after his license for busting minimums. He'd fly an approach in Hawthorne, Ca. and would just continue down till he saw the ground, he could recognize his position and fly to the runway. He also drug his tail across down the runway once because he had the wrong fuel tank selected. He quickly change tanks and the plane pulled up. And then there was the time he crashed on top of a mountain and he and his wife and mother-in-law walked away. He died while commuting by running into a mountain with a fellow commuter. 

Could you explain to me how the airliner could save fuel by executing the maneuver you were talking about.

Where did you work as a controller?

I've flown into Gander, Goose Bay, and St. Johns.


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## pbfoot (Jan 25, 2008)

Rather then doing the whole ILS he'd be given radar vectors to about a 9-11 mile final we'd turn him on and they'd call the ILS . This particular crew called visual (passed him off to tower)made a 3-4 mile turn on picked up the ILS (you could watch on the PAR as he corrected) and landed this saved him about 10 miles flying . If he had remained IMC doing the ILS we would have flight followed him on the PAR .This was at Goose circa 8o-83 .


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## lesofprimus (Jan 25, 2008)

Any chance u two guys talked to each other in the early 80's???


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## davparlr (Jan 25, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> Rather then doing the whole ILS he'd be given radar vectors to about a 9-11 mile final we'd turn him on and they'd call the ILS . This particular crew called visual (passed him off to tower)made a 3-4 mile turn on picked up the ILS (you could watch on the PAR as he corrected) and landed this saved him about 10 miles flying . If he had remained IMC doing the ILS we would have flight followed him on the PAR .This was at Goose circa 8o-83 .



That sounds like something a hot shot pilot would pull and not a particularly hard maneuver to accomplish for a large aircraft contrary to some other posts. I still don't like pilots lying to controllers. Not a good scene.

I had a good friend who's husband was killed in an F-20 accident, I think in 85, at either Goose Bay or Gander. Do you remember that happening?



lesofprimus said:


> Any chance u two guys talked to each other in the early 80's???



No, I'm older than dirt. I was flying between 71-74, when we were pulling out of Vietnam.


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## Soren (Jan 25, 2008)

What did you fly ? A Huey ?


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## pbfoot (Jan 25, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> Any chance u two guys talked to each other in the early 80's???


I think I've talked to just about every 141 or C5 ever made worked 3 Reforgers and was TDY for a 4th and Goose was a major stop we were getting a 141 about every 1/2 hour if memory serves me


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## fly boy (Jan 25, 2008)

how do i post fourms


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## davparlr (Jan 25, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> I think I've talked to just about every 141 or C5 ever made worked 3 Reforgers and was TDY for a 4th and Goose was a major stop we were getting a 141 about every 1/2 hour if memory serves me



Reforger was always a big deal. You didn't say if you remember the F-20 accident.


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## davparlr (Jan 25, 2008)

Soren said:


> What did you fly ? A Huey ?



This went over my head


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## pbfoot (Jan 26, 2008)

davparlr said:


> Reforger was always a big deal. You didn't say if you remember the F-20 accident.


I remember the F20 crashing but can't recall where it certainly didn't when I was there . The only crashes when I was there was a flight of GAF f4's and some Raf Jags


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## Wilson (Apr 30, 2008)

Wildcat said:


> Gents, looking for info on the Luftwaffe raid against Bournemouth on the 23rd of May 1943. Could someone tell me what unit(s) were involved? (Fw190's made the attack), German losses and what was their target?
> I ask because Bournemouth was the locations of 11 PDRC (Personnel Despatch and Recieving Centre) which was the receiving station for RAAF aircrew arriving in the UK. From what I can gather six RAAF airmen plus many civilians were killed in the raid. Was this a delibrate attack on RAAF personnel or were they simply in the way of a more important target?



The Raid took place on Sunday 22nd May 1943 at lunch time. I was 10 yrs old at the time and the german aircraft flew in over the Queens Park District, east of the Town. They flew over our house at roof top height and as I was in the garden I saw them clearly.
My Father was Permanent Mess Secretary for the RCAF looking after 66 hotels in Bournemouth with Airforce personnel. He had been Manager of the Metropole Hotel before it was taken over. He was in the hotel when it was hit.
Bournemouth was the Headquarters of the Empire Air Training Scheme, for aircrew from the Empire, controlled by the RCAF.
Check the Bournemouth Daily Echo Newspaper of Monday 23rd. May 1943 which reports three german planes destryed. The planes used were FW 190s and ME 109s.


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## Wilson (May 1, 2008)

My apologies. The Bournemouth Echo report that I have reads that Sunday was 22nd. May 1943. However, the 1943 calendar clearly shows that the Sunday, the day of the Raid, was 23rd. May.


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## mhuxt (May 1, 2008)

Hi Wilson:

Many thanks for that. I must ask - was your father OK?

The copy of the book I was referring to was in the Chatswood Public Library (I should know, I donated it to them in the first place.) If you're in Aussie, you may be able to arrange an inter-branch loan if you want a look at it.

Cheers,

Mark


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## Njaco (May 1, 2008)

Thanks Wilson!


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## Wilson (May 23, 2008)

Yes thank you. My Father survived, he has subsequently died.
Yesterday was the 65 anniversary of the Bournemouth Raid. I have managed to get a copy of the book "Luftwaffe Fighter-Bombers over Britain. Looks like a good read. I have read the details of the Bournemouth Raid and interested in the sketch map showing the path of the raid. (p247).If anyone is interested, go to Google Earth or Google maps and put in 59 Thistlebarrow Road Bournemouth. That was where I was living and where I was in the garden when the 'jabos' flew over the house at roof top height. Just past our house they dropped their first bomb; it landed in Bethia Road ( also shown on Google just north of the new 'Wessex Way'. That bomb killed my best friend, Michael. You can follow the path of the attack down Holdenhurst Road to the Metropole Hotel where my Father was when it received a direct hit. They also hit the Beales Department Store, which burned for three days. I saw it shortly afterwards and it was a mess of twisted girders.
The book is a good read...thank you for giving me the details.


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## Njaco (May 24, 2008)

Wilson, I posted a condensed version of this thread on "This day in Europe...."

And thanks for the verification.


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## mhuxt (May 25, 2008)

Hi Wilson:

Thanks for posting back. Glad you got a hold of the book - it's very well researched, and as you say, a good read.

I've tried to re-find the scan I made of the raid map. Sadly, I've deleted it, if any of the other forumites saved a copy, perhaps they could re-post.

All the best,

Mark


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## Wilson (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi Mark.

I have scanned the map. How do I Post it?


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## Soren (Jun 26, 2008)

davparlr said:


> This went over my head



What then ?


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## Njaco (Jun 26, 2008)

Wilson, if you hit "Post Reply" and then scroll down to "Manage Attachments", click on that and you can upload from your computer or link to it.


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## mhuxt (Jun 27, 2008)

Hi Wilson:

If Njaco's method won't work for you, I've also sent you my email address via private message - I can post the map for you if you like.


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## mhuxt (Jun 27, 2008)

Hi All:

Here's the map, somewhat reduced from the scan Wilson kindly sent me.







If anyone wants the larger version, on which the individual streets are much clearer, drop me a p.m. I've attached the reduced version due to the dreaded bandwidth limitations.


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## Haztoys (Jun 28, 2008)

This is a new one on me ...Strange how some battles are well covered and some are not ...Great read ...Other then a small pissing contest in there ...But that does happen around here at times......


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## davparlr (Jun 29, 2008)

Soren said:


> What then ?



Don't get me confused with those heroes that flew helicopters at low level in flying lead. I usually flew over Vietnam at 33k in a C-141, looking down at flares going off and guard calls to avoid certain tacan radials and DME, going or coming from Thailand. In 73-74, we were pulling troops and material out.


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## sima19 (Aug 8, 2008)

Thank you to Wilson for your homefront story.

My great-uncle was an RCAF pilot who was stationed at Bournemouth during that time, however, was in London on the specific day May 23, 1943. Upon return to Bournemouth on the 25th, he noted in his diary: "...saw the damage done on Sunday by 12 FW190s. Wrecked churches pubs full of people park with bombs mach. guns." 

Jennifer


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## Njaco (Aug 10, 2008)

Thanks for the info, Jennifer.

It just keeps piling up!


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## Hot Space (Aug 12, 2008)

mhuxt said:


> Hi All:
> 
> Here's the map, somewhat reduced from the scan Wilson kindly sent me.
> 
> ...



M8 could you send me the map with the inividual streets on as I now live part-time in Bournemouth and one of the bomb hits looks like its near Terrace Road (Where I live).....I'll also send you a PM too as I'm back down there 2moro for a few days.

My girlfriend was telling me about this last year when I was down there and looked it up on the Net: Interesting Thread folks 8)

If I have time I could take some pictures of what the area's looks like now for the Site.


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## mhuxt (Aug 12, 2008)

Check PMs HS.


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## Hot Space (Aug 12, 2008)

Just sent you one back m8.

Thanks for this 8)


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## mhuxt (Aug 12, 2008)

OK, email with map and PM sent.

Cheers,

Mark


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## Hot Space (Aug 12, 2008)

I see what you mean about Hotmail m8 as it seems I didn't get it - its crap  

Sent you another E-Addy in another PM here - Sorry about this m8


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## mhuxt (Aug 12, 2008)

OK, tried again to new one.

Cheers,

Mark


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## Hot Space (Aug 12, 2008)

Yep got them again m8.

Cheers 8)


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## rogs (Apr 29, 2009)

I've just come across this thread while trying to find out a little more about this raid on a general 'Google' --fascinating stuff! Sorry I'm a bit late!

I've lived in Bournemouth all my life, and my family can trace their Bournemouth roots back to the 1870's. During WW2 Bournemouth was _relatively_ lucky - that is compared to the nearby coastal ports of Southampton and Portsmouth, for example, but the 23rd May 1943 is still considered to be one of the major air raids on the town- and for many people locally certainly the most talked about!


As you can probably imagine, the anecdotal evidence of the stories from that day varies widely, and perhaps more so in recent times,as the eyewitnesses get fewer, and with ever fading memories. 
What I can confirm , from a number of sources, is that the 23rd May 1943 definitely _was_ a sunny day -at least here in Bournemouth! 

In case anyone is interested, I've posted a few extracts and photos about the raid from a pamphlet published by a local historian, R.A. Edgington, in the 1990's. I appreciate that these snippets may still be copyright, but as far as I can ascertain the pamphlet is no longer published, and I'm hoping Mr.Edgington doesn't mind his information being relayed to genuinely interested folk.

Some details here:
 Edgington Extract 

and photos of the damage here:
 Photos 

Hope some of it may be of interest.

Roger Shore


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## mhuxt (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for that Roger, great stuff!


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## Wildcat (Apr 30, 2009)

Agreed. Thanks Rog.


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## Njaco (May 1, 2009)

Excellent Roger! Thank you very much!


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## rogs (May 9, 2009)

Glad some of the information was useful!
I've edited the links to the information, and made it into two multipage documents -makes it easier to read.

Thanks to you guys too - I didn't know of the Chris Goss book, and am just on my way to collect my copy now. I'm looking forward to a good read!


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## rogs (May 9, 2009)

Probably not important, but the quote below is _almost_ right!



pbfoot said:


> On May 23, 1943, the peacefulness of a beautiful Sunday morning was abruptly shattered when 22 German aircraft, led by Leutnant Leopold Wenger, conducted their most audacious raid on Bournemouth. The Kingsway Hotel, the Congressional Church and Beales Department Store sustained significant bomb damage, but at the Landsdowne Circle the Metropole Hotel was virtually destroyed when it took a direct hit.
> Casualties were high. Among the 128 killed that day were 51 service men



AFAIK there has never been a 'Kingsway Hotel' or a 'Congresstional Church' in Bournemouth. 
The 'Central Hotel' and the adjacent 'Punshon Memorial Church' were damaged, the former being totally destroyed, and the latter damged badly enough to require subsequent demolition.

And although the 'Lansdowne' area does in fact have a circular roundabout at it's centre, I've never heard it referred to as the 'Lansdowne Circle', just the 'Lansdowne'. Maybe some of the billeted troops from Canada, Australia and the US did call it the 'Lansdowne Circle'?

I realise I'm probably being too pedantic, but as time goes by I kick myself more and more that I didn't ask more questions to those who witnessed these events first hand--- and now many have passed on, and it's too late to recover many of those 'fine' details. Got to keep trying to though!


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## Wilson (May 25, 2009)

Thanks Roger for the comments. My family, including me, moved to Bournemouth in 1936. That is when Father took over as Manager of the Metropole Hotel. We all lived there until it was taken over by the RCAF. 
Please read my other comments.

It is now 66 years ago since that raid on 23rd. May 1943 and I still remember it clearly. We should never let it be forgotten, in memory of all those who gave their lives on that sunny Spring day and pray that it never happens again.

I now live in Australia but my two brothers still live in Bournemouth as do many of my friends.


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## Dream Flyer (May 27, 2009)

My father was in the raid. He was in the 8th AF and on R/R and staying at a hotel - - wish I knew which one!

He bitterly recalled standing on the cliffs and watching German fighterbombers coming in at 100 feet. He was angry (this was 1987) that the germans would attack a non-military target of no strategic value; he mentioned the RCAF hospital there and the casualties. 

My mother was in Michigan staying with her folks at the time. Her father saw the raid in the newspapers and knew my father was there so he hid the papers from my mother. 

I wish I had pressed him for more details.


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## Dream Flyer (May 27, 2009)

Roger,

Can you give me the exact title of this pamphlet you sent the extract from? Also the author and publishing information. I'd like to be able to specifically cite the source. This is wonderful material. Thank you for sharing.

Hugh


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## rogs (May 28, 2009)

Hugh - The extract I posted was from an A4 paperback/pamphlet of some 120 pages entitled:

'Bournemouth and the Second World War 1939-1945' 

by M.A. Edgington, and published in 1994.

The ISBN reference is 1-873887-03-5


I'm not sure how many copies were printed, but mine seems to be identified with the number '728' - so maybe not that many?

I do hope that Mr. Edgington will not be too annoyed at my blatant infringement of his copyright, by posting an extract online!

Who knows? - maybe if there's enough interest, there maybe another print run!


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## Dream Flyer (May 28, 2009)

Roger,

Thank you! I do hope Mr. Edgington understands that there are lots of people who are interested in his work and that another print run would be welcomed.

I appreciate your posting it in the first place and also providing me with the citation.

Thanks!

Hugh


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## Njaco (May 29, 2009)

I want to thank you guys for adding to this thread. Maks it a little more...real. Thanks!


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## pbfoot (May 31, 2009)

hers alittle article I found from Airforce magazine dated 1984 by Arthur Haylock


If the RCAF had searched all of England it could not have found a more lovely and pleasant place than Bournemoutn as a reception base for Canadians, In 1942. it was a city of 126000 and In 1982 it is only 140000 It was long known as a seaside resort where English families spent summer holidays. Dozens of hotels adjoined the beach area, and the weather was generally clear and sunny.
At the outbreak of war. the British j government evacuated several of their ministeries .
with their female staff from London to Bournemouth, the English girls had a rather cool detached view of Canadians .
They were aware that we were a transient group and few formed lasting relationships. They knew when we left we would be replaced by another draf from Canada. In many cases they were able to tell us of friends who had arrived earlier and where they were posted now.
But the English girls loved to dance. And the Canadians taught them polka's. old time waltz's and Jitterbugging. From them we learned the Palais Glide the Boston two-step and the Lambeth Walk. Tea dances were held every afternoon at the pavilion at the beach. In the evening we took the bus to the Boscombe Palais. Dances were over early so we goals get a ride back ' 
LEAVE
On arrival at Bournemouth we given seven days leave. It was I pleasant expeirence for as to visit relatives. particularly if they lived in the lovely English country- side. For our family. It was the first link I since my uncles had returned from the 14-18 war. The Air Force Officers were billeted in several novels in the Square. For a time we l lived In the Royal Bath Hotel. the most prestigious hotel in the city Later we were moved to Burley Court. which like a number of hotels was only used for sleeping quarters. Our officers mess was in the Anglo-Swiss Hotel. a block away. It had a billiard and recreation room and a large dining area . The dining area where all our meals were served. The dining room could accomoodate 100 officers At the rear was a lovely flower garden with a goldfish pond 
The spring of 42 seemed to be turning to summer as we impatiently waited for our posting. In the evenings sitting in the officers mess of the Anglo-swiss Hotel we used to turn our radio on to the German channel which broadcast news by William Joyce better known to the British as Lord Haw Haw. At this time he gave the news of the successful actions of the Germans on the Russian front. destruction of shipping by UBoats the loss to the Japanese of Singapore and Burma. and disasters to the British in the Western Desert One night after these speeches. he interjected a personal note. "I would like to speak to you Canadians who are enjoying Bournemouth at the present time We hope pay you a vlslt in the near future If you are at the Anglo Swiss Hotel you will notice your clock is ten minutes slow '' He was only out by thirty seconds We knew lt had been slow for some time. Did any one of us listening to him attach any personal significance to this statement'? I very much doubt it .
Jun 6 42, began the same as any other day It was the birthday of my friend P/O Del Holmberg and we had agreed to meet that evening for a celebration The weather was very warm and the bright sun seemed to the beginning of a lovely summer P/O Hopkins and I walked toward the hotel on the edge of the cobblestone street The time was 4 45 p m we would be in time for tea An English couple and two children had set their table on the lawn In front of their house Suddenly there was a whine of bullets striking the pavement, splinters of stone filled the air Something plucked at my sleeve, and I noticed a jagged tear in my uniform P/O Hopkins had a hole in the peak of his hat A plane was directly above us at 50 feet, It had black crosses on It's wings I recognized an ME109 The pilot turned has head sharply, his perplex was open, he seemed certain of kis target and the 500 pound bomb fell quickly There was an explosion and dust clung in the plane turned for France, the pilot had seconds to live British radar had packed him up on his approach from France realizing they could not intercept him in time the two Spitfires on standby raced for the sea, and as he crossed the coast. they were on has tail He dived for sea level. Skillfully evading their attcks flying so low that one of his wings touched the water The plane crashed and the pilot's body was thrown clear It was picked up by air-sea rescue and returned to us, l looked across the street the English family were dead, the full fury of the machine-gun burst had killed them all. P/O Hopkins and I began to run across to block and through the back alley to our hotel We entered through the little wooden door at the rear The bomb had struck the sleeping wing and also the recreation and dining area visible amongst the pile of rubble were the bodies of two people, one only slightly Injured, as a result of a bath tub covering him after the initial burst ARP Wardens arrived and we carried the two down on stretchers We were able to to confirm that they were the only ones on the upper floor "
The article goes on to discuss some the rescues and the gentlemens visit back in 1980


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## oriska (Sep 17, 2009)

Wildcat said:


> Gents, looking for info on the Luftwaffe raid against Bournemouth on the 23rd of May 1943. Could someone tell me what unit(s) were involved? (Fw190's made the attack), German losses and what was their target?
> I ask because Bournemouth was the locations of 11 PDRC (Personnel Despatch and Recieving Centre) which was the receiving station for RAAF aircrew arriving in the UK. From what I can gather six RAAF airmen plus many civilians were killed in the raid. Was this a delibrate attack on RAAF personnel or were they simply in the way of a more important target?



I remember 23rd of May 1943 vividly. I was 14yrs old and lying on the top of the cliffs in Bournemouth with three friends. A German aeroplane came in low over the sea macine gunning the bathers as it came, I can still hear the rat tat tat of the machine gun. The aeropane rose as it neared the cliff, machine gunning as it passed low over us, fortunately none of us were hurt. Within seconds we heard the sound of bombs exploding. We had to go home by a round about route as the roads were closed off. We would normally have passed the Metropole Hotel which was full of members of the Royal Canadian Airforce. Unfortunately it was lunch time and many were killed.


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## The Majors Batman (Jun 15, 2010)

rogs said:


> Probably not important, but the quote below is _almost_ right!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It could not have been called Lansdowne Circle as the roundabout was not constructed till several years after the war after


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## The Majors Batman (Jun 15, 2010)

Wilson said:


> Yes thank you. My Father survived, he has subsequently died.
> Yesterday was the 65 anniversary of the Bournemouth Raid. I have managed to get a copy of the book "Luftwaffe Fighter-Bombers over Britain. Looks like a good read. I have read the details of the Bournemouth Raid and interested in the sketch map showing the path of the raid. (p247).If anyone is interested, go to Google Earth or Google maps and put in 59 Thistlebarrow Road Bournemouth. That was where I was living and where I was in the garden when the 'jabos' flew over the house at roof top height. Just past our house they dropped their first bomb; it landed in Bethia Road ( also shown on Google just north of the new 'Wessex Way'. That bomb killed my best friend, Michael. You can follow the path of the attack down Holdenhurst Road to the Metropole Hotel where my Father was when it received a direct hit. They also hit the Beales Department Store, which burned for three days. I saw it shortly afterwards and it was a mess of twisted girders.
> The book is a good read...thank you for giving me the details.



I can recall them coming line abreast from the East very low and my mother picking me up and making for the next door's air raid shelter , but we never made it as the house collapsed on us burying us for hours, the only wound I received was the corner of a brick ripping my knee open, still bear the scar.
The Bomb was aimed at St Clements Bridge over the railway but it bounced up entering the Coop Bakery and out of there and down our chimney then glancing into the adjacent properties before exploding.Killing 2 
It was whilst repair works on our property was be carried out the tail fins of the bomb were discoverd 

The second most famous Australian cricketer Keith Miller was delayed that fateful Sunday and arrived late only to find some of his pals who he was due to meet had been killed at the Metropole he mentions it in his book


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## Njaco (Jun 15, 2010)

I want to thank you guys for your experiences and adding to this thread. It seems that despite what was stated at the beginning of this thread, there was an attack and we have eyewitnesses! Thank you all.


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## Wildcat (Jun 16, 2010)

Njaco said:


> I want to thank you guys for your experiences and adding to this thread.


I'll second that! Thanks very much gents!




Njaco said:


> It seems that despite what was stated at the beginning of this thread, there was an attack and we have eyewitnesses! Thank you all.



 But boy was it hard to prove!!


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## minter (Jun 16, 2010)

Wildcat said:


> I'll second that! Thanks very much gents!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




i pass the cemetary evry day where a lot of those chaps are buried, theres the proof


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## minter (Jun 16, 2010)

found these


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## Milosh (Jun 16, 2010)

Thought some might be interested in the bombing of Hull.
HULL BOMB MAP


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## Njaco (Jun 16, 2010)

Awesome map Milosh!!


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## Wilson (Jul 31, 2010)

minter said:


> found these


The Black and white photograph is of the Metropole Hotel, at the Lansdown (No round-a-bout in 1943!). My Father, who although was in the RCAF at the time, was still tje Licencee of the Hotel and was in the building, on the left of the picture, when it was hit.


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## norton65ca (Dec 3, 2012)

my great grandmother and great aunt were killed in that raid. Any more info on this much appreciated. i would very much appreciate a conformation on units involved and so on, haven't had time to go through this entire thread as I'm at work, but I will read it this evening.


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## Milosh (Dec 3, 2012)

norton65ca said:


> my great grandmother and great aunt were killed in that raid. Any more info on this much appreciated. i would very much appreciate a conformation on units involved and so on, haven't had time to go through this entire thread as I'm at work, but I will read it this evening.



You might find this of interest norton, The war in Queens Park and Charminster, Bournemouth


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## gciranni (Jan 3, 2013)

There were 6 American serviceman casualties in this attack. Unfortunately my father's uncle was killed while on leave to Bournemouth.


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## Njaco (Jan 4, 2013)

Welcome to the forum gciranni from another North East resident. And thanks very much for the info.


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## Wilson (May 8, 2013)

Wilson said:


> My apologies. The Bournemouth Echo report that I have reads that Sunday was 22nd. May 1943. However, the 1943 calendar clearly shows that the Sunday, the day of the Raid, was 23rd. May.



I was in Bournemouth in August 2012 and went to a book launch. The Author was Angela Beleznay and she has written a book entitled "Incident 48. Raid on a South Coast Town. 1943. The ISBN is 9781897887943. It contains a wealth of information on the 23rd. May 1943 raid on Bournemouth. It is worth reading.


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## Dream Flyer (May 8, 2013)

Wilson -
Thanks very much for advising about the Bournemouth Raid book. I just ordered it through amazon. My father was there and I'm very eager to see what this book contains. I really appreciate you taking the time to post this info - I'd never have known of the book.
Hugh


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## Njaco (May 8, 2013)

Thanks Wilson!


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## mhuxt (May 8, 2013)

Thanks Wilson.


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## nuuumannn (May 9, 2013)

This is a fascinating thread about an awful incident; thanks to all those who contributed. By the way, any one heard from Crumpp?!


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## Milosh (May 9, 2013)

nuuumannn said:


> By the way, any one heard from Crumpp?!



Didn't he get banned from this board?


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## Njaco (May 9, 2013)

Milosh said:


> Didn't he get banned from this board?



Yes. Read the thread - its self-explanatory why.


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## Milosh (May 9, 2013)

Whoa!!! What a donkeyhole. Never knew why, just saw 'banned' under his name in some other threads.


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## Njaco (May 9, 2013)

"donkeyhole"....thats a polite way of putting it!


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## pattle (May 17, 2013)

I was born and raised in Poole just a few miles from Bournemouth and have had an interest in the war ever since being a small boy. One thing that I always remember from growing up was the unwillingness of those who were around at the time to talk of such events as the bombing of The Metropole Hotel, yes they would talk of the war but not of the killing. So imagine my surprise in the 1980's when I chanced upon a wartime picture of my favourite pub The Gander on the Green (now known as the Christopher Creeke) in ruins after a catastrophic air raid. I had been a regular at this pub for quite a while by this time and while I had heard of the Metropole having been bombed I had no idea of the scale of lives lost or that the Metropole had been rebuilt and re-named the Gander on the Green, neither had any of the other regulars or bar staff that I knew. I haven't visited this pub in years but from memory there is just one small plaque saying only that a German bomb destroyed the original building and offers no more detail other than that, to me it is a shame that people no longer remember the loss of life that occurred but then I understand and respect that people at the time didn't want to be reminded of it every day. My mother and other older relatives now find it easier to talk about these times and have told me that German raiders would often attack in this fashion sometimes dropping bombs and sometimes flying down the streets machine gunning whoever was about, in one such attack my mums cousin was killed on Poole Quay. I think that some and probably a lot of what happened back then has been forgotten about due to wartime reporting restrictions, people were also warned not to talk of such things and didn't do until years later. One thing I have been told by a number of people is that the Germans had a way of knowing the place was full of Airmen. Just as a side note the rest of the old Metropole site is now occupied by a KFC with offices on top.


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## The Majors Batman (May 18, 2013)

On Thursday the 23 May 2013 at 1230hrs a memorial will be unveiled at the Lansdowne Bournemouth across the roads from the Metropole now a Wetherspoons. 
The galling thing nobody has been invited by Bournemouth Council who were involved at the time, in fact they are trying their hardest to dissuade people from attending

Row over memorial for Metropole bombing victims (From Bournemouth Echo)


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## Njaco (May 19, 2013)

Incredible. Thats a disgrace. Thanks for posting and letting us know.


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## The Majors Batman (May 22, 2013)

Military deaths: Bournemouth bombings of 23 May 1943 (From Bournemouth Echo) 

Civilian war dead: Bournemouth bombings of 23 May 1943 (From Bournemouth Echo)


These 2 links give more information of the persons who lost their lives that day


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## Njaco (May 22, 2013)

Thank you Major!


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## The Majors Batman (May 24, 2013)

A report on the event and video of the unveiling ceremony

VIDEO: Memorial to victims of "Bournemouth's bleakest day" unveiled today (From Bournemouth Echo)


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## pattle (May 24, 2013)

Very interesting thanks. Could you tell me one thing though, did the Metropole hotel occupy the current site of the present day KFC and was the centre of the bomb blast on the site of the current Wetherspoons pub?


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## The Majors Batman (May 24, 2013)

KFC occupy the ground floor at the narrow point and HSBC around the corner . Wetherspoons looking at pictures from 1943 occupy floors to the left within the devastated building. The buildings of a lesser height adjacent to the bombed building are still standing and the upper floors are as they were on that day. Next time I pop in for jar I will take a picture I feel a thirst coming on, my next door neighbour has just gone down for one but as it is midwinter Yes late May and the weather is bitter I will leave it till next week. 
I did bump into a chap this morning who was messenger for the ARP Heavy Rescue Team based in Kings Park and he was on the cliff top and watched them come in at wave top level climb up over the cliffs at Southbourne and sweep at low level towards the town and he swears there was only 9 planes wing tip to wing tip and I never saw 20 odd ( as some reports state) either from my back garden but as they were so low only a lower amount as he said.
He also said they were so low the Bofars could not angle down to hit them. He then made his way back to Kings Park to join his team who were dispatched to the Metropole .


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## rogs (Jun 25, 2013)

rogs said:


> Hugh - The extract I posted was from an A4 paperback/pamphlet of some 120 pages entitled:
> 
> 'Bournemouth and the Second World War 1939-1945'
> 
> ...



I appreciate that this is a bit of a gap, but I'm pleased to see the thread still running! 

Following on from my comments above, I managed to contact Mike Edgington some time ago, to ask him about the possibility of a new print run of his book. Since then, there have been one or two tentative attempts at costings, but in the end a new 'hard copy' print run simply isn't commercially viable....

Having said that, it seemed a terrible shame that the huge amount of information that Mike has collected about Bournemouth's wartime history should not see the light of day again....Especially the details on the Commonwealth and US troops stationed here from 1942 onwards.

Having discussed that with Mike, I'm pleased to report that he has agreed to allow the publication of a free online version of the complete original book.
To make that a reality, I have just completed the transcription of the complete text into a PDF document, and the whole book is now available to download from here:

Bournemouth and the Second World War - M.A. Edgington


Please remember that this edition is for educational and recreation purposes only, and should not be used for ANY commercial gain. That was one of Mike's preconditions for online publication.

If you do quote any of the text, please acknowledge the source.

(Incidentally, the number 'JP137' in the webpage URL listed above refers to another Bournemouth wartime incident. The MOORDOWN HALIFAX MEMORIAL  website is dedicated to the commemoration of those who lost their lives, when RAF Halifax bomber - serial number JP137 - crashed into a Bournemouth suburb, in March 1944).

I do hope you find something of interest in both that website, and in Mike Edgington's excellent history of Bournemouth in WW2...

Roger Shore


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## Dream Flyer (Jun 25, 2013)

Roger -
Is is wonderful ! My hearty thanks to you and to Mr. Edgington. I am very grateful. I know this will be something that many people will appreciate. Thank you!
Hugh Harrington
Milledgeville, GA USA


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## Njaco (Jun 25, 2013)

What a fantastic booklet!! I loved reading it!

Amazing. 208 civilian and military deaths on 23 May - a day which nothing happened according to......................


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## mhuxt (Jun 26, 2013)

What a great resource!

Many thanks to you and Mr. Edgington for making it available!


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## rogs (Jun 26, 2013)

Thank you for your kind words, gentlemen. I shall be seeing Mike shortly, so I will pass your thanks on to him.

Njaco -- Mike's figure of 208 dead is taken from the notes released by Alderman Harry Mears in 1986.
Harry was Civil Defence Controller in Bournemouth during the war years, and left us a wealth of details on the period. It does look as if some of the 'official' wartime records that were probably _supposed_ to be sent to the Hampshire County Headquarters in Winchester were actually retained by Harry.
Harry was a highly respected, if rather colourful character, but how reliable his _official_ administative skills were, I'm not sure?
His autobiography was never published..... although those of us interested in local history are very grateful for the notes and records he did leave... even if he wasn't supposed to! 

More recent research, especially that carried out by Angela Beleznay for her excellent book 'Incident 48...Raid on a South Coast Town' ( the book Wilson linked to in post #159) suggests the _actual_ figure for all those who lost their lives that day was more probably 123.
Angela includes the most comprehensive list I've ever seen of the casualties for that day. I suspect we'll never know, for certain, whether it is fully complete......


The title 'Incident 48' is taken from the list of 51 recorded Bournemouth WW2 air raids. You can find the complete list in Appendix D (pages 118, 118a and 119) of Mike Edgington's book.


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## Njaco (Jun 26, 2013)

Thanks Roger. I was actually making a "tongue-in-cheek" reference to the late departed Crump's assertion that nothing happened on that date at Bournemouth.


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## mhuxt (Mar 16, 2014)

Sorry for the necro-thread, however found this on the BBC website, memorial unveiled in Bournemouth last year, may be of interest:

BBC News - Bournemouth 1943 air raid remembered


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## Njaco (Mar 18, 2014)

Thanks!


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