# Tomcat forever !!!!!!!!!!!!!!



## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

I really wish we had kept the tomcat it was a very good plane could still hold its own today. Shes fast and very armed carrying AIM-54s plus a cannon and a bombload if you need her to. There was no need for the F-18 anything it can do the tomcat can better LONG LIVE THE TOMCAT YOU WILL BE MISSED


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

In a word, expense.

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> In a word, expense.


Money i know it always gets in the way . But still wish we would have kept her in use and not bulit the F-18 (not saying i hate the hornet just like the cat better is all )


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## SaparotRob (Feb 15, 2022)

Hey VA5124. You really should check out Ward Carroll's YouTube channel. He flew in F-14 Tomcats. He has lots of great stuff on the F-14!

I too wish they kept the Tomcat. When Grumman lost the F-14D contract, the economy here on Long Island tanked.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Money i know it always gets in the way . But still wish we would have kept her in use and not bulit the F-18 (not saying i hate the hornet just like the cat better is all )



After the post-Cold War drawdown and resulting reductions in budget, that just wasn't going to happen.

It was a great plane and beautiful to watch. For about 6 months, I lived off the end of the runway at NAS Memphis in Millington, TN, and got to watch Tomcats circling into the landing pattern, breaking condensation over their leading-edges as they pulled tight into the pattern. They were, in the very-overused word's original meaning, awesome; they inspired my awe with their aerial grace.

I like the Hornet as well for its maneuverability, although it's an ugly plane to look at in my eyes. But I get that one crew, one engine, and no VG wing means it provided much of the F-14's capability while saving a boatload of money. I think you could fit more onto a flattop too, nd have extra attack capability in so doing until the F-14B came onto the flightline.

But again, money. And that matters.

ETA: F-14D, not -B, for ground attack.


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> Hey VA5124. You really should check out Ward Carroll's YouTube channel. He flew in F-14 Tomcats. He has lots of great stuff on the F-14!
> 
> I too wish they kept the Tomcat. When Grumman lost the F-14D contract, the economy here on Long Island tanked.



Bookmarked and thanks, Rob!

ETA: Love any guy who plays a Les Paul/Marshall guitar rig! Upgrading "like" to "bacon" fo sho.

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> Hey VA5124. You really should check out Ward Carroll's YouTube channel. He flew in F-14 Tomcats. He has lots of great stuff on the F-14!
> 
> I too wish they kept the Tomcat. When Grumman lost the F-14D contract, the economy here on Long Island tanked.


I'll have to look at that you know 4th gen jets are coming to war thunder so ill get my cat soon

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## SaparotRob (Feb 15, 2022)

Keep 'em flyin'!

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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I really wish we had kept the tomcat it was a very good plane could still hold its own today. Shes fast and very armed carrying AIM-54s plus a cannon and a bombload if you need her to. There was no need for the F-18 anything it can do the tomcat can better LONG LIVE THE TOMCAT YOU WILL BE MISSED


First, the latest bock F/A-18s are miles ahead of the F-14 in terms of combat capability, maintainability and operational costs. It WAS a great aircraft in it's day but the sun has set on the aircraft. Second, I worked with people who maintained them in their later years and these folks, airframers, powerplant folks and avionic guys (AKA "Trons") were relieved to see the F-14 go. Pull the Top Gun tape out of your VCR, the sequel comes out this summer!

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## SaparotRob (Feb 15, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Bookmarked and thanks, Rob!
> 
> ETA: Love any guy who plays a Les Paul/Marshall guitar rig! Upgrading "like" to "bacon" fo sho.


Back at ya'!

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> First, the latest bock F/A-18s are miles ahead of the F-14 in terms of combat capability, maintainability and operational costs. It WAS a great aircraft in it's day but the sun has set on the aircraft. Second, I worked with people who maintained them in their later years and these folks, airframers, powerplant folks and avionic guys (AKA "Trons") were relieved to see the F-14 go. Pull the Top Gun tape out of your VCR, the sequel comes out this summer!


I would say you could put an F-14 in to any fight you put a hornet in and it would still win and do it faster than a hornet considering we have AIM-54s you dont


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> Back at ya'!



AND -- the brotha's a Duane Allman fan!

Admins why, o why can't I give this "bacon" _and_ "winner"?!

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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> First, the latest bock F/A-18s are miles ahead of the F-14 in terms of combat capability, maintainability and operational costs. It WAS a great aircraft in it's day but the sun has set on the aircraft. Second, I worked with people who maintained them in their later years and these folks, airframers, powerplant folks and avionic guys (AKA "Trons") were relieved to see the F-14 go. Pull the Top Gun tape out of your VCR, the sequel comes out this summer!



My understanding is that the maintenance on them was very intensive per flight-hour. And yep, that means money.

Hope 

 ARTESH
jumps in on this thread to provide perspective from the only foreign-nation user. It's my understanding that the plane was the mount of several Iranian aces during their war with Iraq in the 80s. I think they still have five or six still operational?


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I would say you could put an F-14 in to any fight you put a hornet in and it would still win and do it faster than a hornet considering we have AIM-54s you dont


I see your youthful testosterone is getting in the way of good judgement. First, ask your self *why* the AIM-54 isn't deployed anymore? It isn't because the F-14 went away, *the system became obsolete. *

This is from another forum and very well put - READ AND UNDERSTAND THE LAST PARAGRAPH!

_The F-14 was a good aircraft, especially in terms of raw power and has generated quite a fan base (courtesy of Top Gun). However, it was really maintenance intensive and ageing quite fast. The F/A-18 Hornet has 50% fewer parts compared to F-14 Tomcat, and is very reliable. The A-6 was retired in favor of F-14 and F/A-18, although neither of them could match A-6's range and payload but outclasses it in every other aspect.

The F-18E/F Super Hornet is a much better replacement for F-14D. It has much more advanced avionics suite. The APG-79 AESA radar on F-18E is more capable than Tomcat's APG-71 MSA radar. The AMRAAM has much better performance than AIM-54 Phoenix, especially against maneuverable targets (Fighter aircraft) likely because AMRAAM was originally designed to be used against agile fighter aircraft in contrast to Phoenix's originally being designed for large bomber size aircraft. The AIM-120D also matches the Phoenix's long range.

The F-18E also has better Ground/Surface attack capabilities (especially in SEAD missions) because of smaller RCS (F-14 comparatively had a Huge radar signature), better avionics (SAR capability, ECMs, etc.) and greater payload + wide range of armament (giving it anti-ship capability). So F-18E Super Hornets have overall better Air-Air and Air-Ground capability than F-14D Tomcat. After the end of Cold War, sooner or later the F-14 had to retire largely because of its maintenance issues and lack of versatility – it was good at only one thing, Fleet defense against Soviet Bombers (and to an extent enemy fighters).

The F/A-18 is a multi-role aircraft, meaning that it can do both Air-Air and Air-Ground operations simultaneously. In fact, it is the first aircraft to shoot down enemy fighters and subsequently bombing enemy targets on the same mission. This happened during the Gulf War, when 2 F-18 Hornets shot down 2 Mig-21s while carrying four 2000 lb bombs each.

Sure, the F-18E doesn't have Tomcat's speed and range but it doesn't need to. Designing an aircraft is always about trade-offs, sacrificing x in order to get y. This entire "Jack of all trades, master of none" notion is flawed in 21st Century. Name a single Fighter designed in the last 20 years which isn't 'multi-role'? Rafale, EF Typhoon, Gripen, Su-35 – ever heard of them? Having multi-role aircraft is not only economical and efficient but a crucial factor when you've limited space.

US Navy can carry 80–90 aircraft on a Carrier. If I've an Air Wing of A-6, F-14 and F-18E Super Hornet (in addition to EW, AWACS, logistics, etc. platforms), then it would make sense to replace A-6 and F-14 with F/A-18s squadron. *The F/A-18E Super Hornets are capable of fulfilling the roles of both A-6 and F-14 almost better or equally while providing better Strike and Defensive capability to the fleet. The resulting F-18E squadrons will be far more effective than a mix of A-6, F-14 and F-18E. Keeping F-14D squadron when you've F-18E Super Hornets is a serious waste of crucial space, money and resources while sacrificing overall capability.*_

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> I see your youthful testosterone is getting in the way of good judgement. First, ask your self *why* the AIM-54 isn't deployed anymore? It isn't because the F-14 went away, *the system became obsolete. *
> 
> This is from another forum and very well put - READ AND UNDERSTAND THE LAST PARAGRAPH!
> 
> ...


It is very capable though besides as much as we spent buliding them might s well use them besides have you seen a better looking jet


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## wuzak (Feb 15, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> I see your youthful testosterone is getting in the way of good judgement. First, ask your self *why* the AIM-54 isn't deployed anymore? It isn't because the F-14 went away, *the system became obsolete. *



Did other manufacturers even try developing the capability of carrying/using the AIM-54?

In US service there were two confirmed launches of AIM 54s, both missing the target.

I'd assume that the lack of use was because of the cost of the missiles, they weren't all that reliable, and rules of engagement would probably limit missile launches to short/medium ranges where other missiles are more effective.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> _*The F/A-18E Super Hornets are capable of fulfilling the roles of both A-6 and F-14 almost better or equally while providing better Strike and Defensive capability to the fleet. The resulting F-18E squadrons will be far more effective than a mix of A-6, F-14 and F-18E. Keeping F-14D squadron when you've F-18E Super Hornets is a serious waste of crucial space, money and resources while sacrificing overall capability.*_



... and -- you reduce the training load on your airedales, and your supply-chain for spares.

In another thread yesterday I did call out multirole a/c as being a hodgepodge, but I do agree that the Super Hornets seem to have avoided the jack of all, master of none coffin-corner.

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

wuzak said:


> Did other manufacturers even try developing the capability of carrying/using the AIM-54?
> 
> In US service there were two confirmed launches of AIM 54s, both missing the target.
> 
> I'd assume that the lack of use was because of the cost of the missiles, they weren't all that reliable, and rules of engagement would probably limit missile launches to short/medium ranges where other missiles are more effective.


So ours missed Iran didnt have that problem


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> It is very capable though besides as much as we spent buliding them might s well use them besides have you seen a better looking jet


The only use for them now is to be put in museums and on poles, their continued use would be a waste of money and resources just to satisfy some nostalgia - the F-14 is obsolete and in my last post it was CLEARLY shown why.

Buy you ticket early for Top Gun: Maverick!

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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> It is very capable though besides as much as we spent buliding them might s well use them besides have you seen a better looking jet



Good looks don't win wars.

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> The only use for them now is to be put in museums and on poles, their continued use would be a waste of money and resources just to satisfy some nostalgia - the F-14 is obsolete an in my last post it was CLEARLY shown why.
> 
> Buy you ticket early for Top Gun: Maverick!


How do you make a new top gun with no tomcats it wont be top gun anymore it will be bottom gun


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> So ours missed Iran didnt have that problem


And the Iranians have struggled to keep theirs in the air (with commendable results). That's doesn't mean those airframes can compete with 4th and 5th generation combat aircraft!

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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> So ours missed Iran didnt have that problem



Well, the Iraqis weren't exactly Top Gun, now were they?

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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> How do you make a new top gun with no tomcats it wont be top gun anymore it will be bottom gun


Call it what you want - see the movie or pull out the VCR and remember the good old days!

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> And the Iranians have struggled to keep theirs in the air (with commendable results). That's doesn't mean those airframes can compete with 4th and 5th generation combat aircraft!


But when they are flying their just as dangerous as they used to be !!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> But when they are flying their just as dangerous as they used to be !!!!!!!!!!!!!


Errr, no they're not! Their avionics are old, their radar signature is as big as a pyramid and will more than likely get smoked before they could ever see their opponent. I guess with your way of thinking, "It's better to die than look bad."


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> But when they are flying their just as dangerous as they used to be !!!!!!!!!!!!!



Of course they're dangerous. No one here has said the Tommy was a weak fighter. We've only pointed out why it was superseded.

I think both the F-22 and F-35 are ugly. But I'd be willing to bet they're good.

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Of course they're dangerous. No one here has said the Tommy was a weak fighter. We've only pointed out why it was superseded.
> 
> I think both the F-22 and F-35 are ugly. But I'd be willing to bet they're good.


Did you just call the f-22 and 35 ugly those are the prettiest stleath planes in the world


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Did you just call the f-22 and 35 ugly those are the prettiest stleath planes in the world



Yes. I think they're ugly. _De gustibus non disputandum_

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Yes. I think they're ugly. _De gustibus non disputandum_


I dont speak latin but i think your wrong about them


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I dont speak latin but i think your wrong about them



That's nice, you have an opinion too.

Forgive the Wiki, but I had to chuckle about the emboldened part:



> According to Tom Cooper and Farzad Bishop, during the Iran-Iraq War AIM-54s fired by IRIAF Tomcats achieved 78 victories against Iraqi MiG-21/23/25s, Tu-22s, Su-20/22s, Mirage F 1s, Super Étendards, and even two AM-39 Exocets and a C-601. This includes two occasions where one AIM-54 was responsible for the downing of two Iraqi aircraft, *as well as an incident on January 7, 1981 where a Phoenix fired at a four-ship of MiG-23s downed three and damaged the fourth.*








AIM-54 Phoenix - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





One missile taking down three airplanes is pretty badass. This is referenced to Tom Cooper and Farzad Bishop, but I haven't read them and can't opine on the reliability of the claim.


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I dont speak latin but i think your wrong about them



Also, Google is your friend.

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Also, Google is your friend.


See an AIM-54 and a tomcat killed 3 at one time lets see a hornet do that


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> See an AIM-54 and a tomcat killed 3 at one time lets see a hornet do that


It accomplished this because it was against and inferior enemy that was caught by surprise and happen to be compromising situation (a tight 4-ship formation) and in 1981 it was state of the art. There was a bit of luck involved there as well!

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> It accomplished this because it was against and inferior enemy that was caught by surprise and happen to be compromising situation (a tight 4-ship formation) and in 1981 it was state of the art. There was a bit of luck involved there as well!


Still lets see the hornet and AIM-120 try to do that


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> See an AIM-54 and a tomcat killed 3 at one time lets see a hornet do that



If the claim is true, it is amazing. But as GJ notes, there's more than a little luck involved. But how many Tomcats have that sort of luck?


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Still lets see the hornet and AIM-120 try to do that


Totally possible if given the same situation


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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Totally possible if given the same situation


Look at this the B-52 have flown since the 60s and no one said replace it so if it can do it so can the tomcat

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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Look at this the B-52 have flown since the 60s and no one said replace it so if it can do it so can the tomcat



The B-52 has had two replacements (B-1 and B-2) in its strategic nuclear role for which it was originally designed. You know why? Because it could no longer perform that mission reliably.

Now put a Tomcat up against an S-400 SAM system and you'll see why it's no longer in use.

The only reason the BUFF is still around is that it's a good bomb-truck against nations with no AD capabilities. The Tomcat would work fine in those conditions. Put it up against an SU-35 or modern AAD; I think you'll be disappointed.

That's because time and technology march on, and good looks don't mean a damned thing to a smart missile.

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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Look at this the B-52 have flown since the 60s and no one said replace it so if it can do it so can the tomcat


Actually the B-52 flown since the 50s. It was a *bomber* and had an entirely different mission that lended itself to be continually overhauled and there has been consideration to replace it. You're comparing apples to oranges. The F-14 is now an obsolete design and again I showed you quite clearly why it's no longer in service. I liked the Tomcat (and still do) but you have to grasp reality, put your testosterone in check and have the intelligence and maturity to recognize you cannot justify your argument. I suggest you, on your own and with an open mind, examine *WHY* the Navy decided to retire the F-14, (and understand why the F/A-18 not only replaced the F-14 but at least 3 other airframes) you might learn something.

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Actually the B-52 flown since the 50s. It was a *bomber* and had an entirely different mission that lended itself to be continually overhauled and there has been consideration to replace it. You're comparing apples to oranges. The F-14 is now an obsolete design and again I showed you quite clearly why it's no longer in service. I liked the Tomcat (and still do) but you have to grasp reality, put your testosterone in check and have the intelligence and maturity to recognize you cannot justify your argument. I suggest you, on your own and with an open mind, examine *WHY* the Navy decided to retire the F-14, (and understand why the F/A-18 not only replaced the F-14 but at least 3 other airframes) you might learn something.


I know why our goverment is dumb and likes to waste money


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I know why our goverment is dumb and likes to waste money



No. The F-14 was retired to _save_ money.

I'm guessing you've never run a business, is that right?

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> No. The F-14 was retired to _save_ money.
> 
> I'm guessing you've never run a business, is that right?


No i havent


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I know why our goverment is dumb and likes to waste money


This has NOTHING to do with the "government" being dumb. It was about highly educated naval officers realizing the F-14 was OBSOLETE and taking steps to ensure our navy continued to have the best combat aircraft available and operating those aircraft cost effectively.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> No i havent



Them you should look up the term "return on investment".

At a certain point, diminishing returns make further investment unwise.

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Them you should look up the term "return on investment".
> 
> At a certain point, diminishing returns make further investment unwise.


I rather have minmal return then spend billions on something we didnt and dont need


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I rather have minmal return then spend billions on something we didnt and dont need


And trying to keep the 1960s era technology F-14 around is spending money on something we didn't and don't need!


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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> And trying to keep the 1960s era technology F-14 around is spending money on something we didn't and don't need!


But it would be cheaper then buliding the F-18


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> But it would be cheaper then buliding the F-18


Nope - ultimately sustainment costs would catch up to it because the airframe is obsolete and as previously mentioned is not maintenance friendly! You would also be putting a 1960s design airframe up against more modern end aerodynamically efficient generation 4 and 5 aircraft. Would you want to fly an aircraft designed in the late 1960s against an Su57?

Again, you're making statements by just shooting from the hip!

The F/A-18 in later blocks replaced the F-14, A-6, EA-6 and as a tanker the S-3. Do you want to discuss how much each one of those aircraft cost to build and maintain?


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I rather have minmal return then spend billions on something we didnt and dont need



You'd rather throw money away on a weapons-system that cannot reliably fight the current fighters of our prospective opponents, nor perform other missions efficiently, thereby allowing cost-cutting across the board?

How is that smart money? Go ahead, pay for two crew, two engines, complicated wings. Let's see how many airplanes you get, and how useful they actually are in 2022.

Let me go crack open a beer. This should be interesting.

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> You'd rather throw money away on a weapons-system that cannot reliably fight the current fighters of our prospective opponents, nor perform other missions efficiently, allowing cost-cutting across the board?
> 
> How is that smart money? Go ahead, pay for two crew, two engines, complicated wings. Let's see how many airplanes you get, and how useful they actually are in 2022.
> 
> Let me go crack open a beer. This should be interesting.


2 engines is better than 1


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> 2 engines is better than 1



40 years ago. Time and engine tech both move on. This ain't 1975.


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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> 40 years ago. Time and engine tech both move on. This ain't 1975.


2 is better because if one fails you can still make it home


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> 2 is better because if one fails you can still make it home



Which is why I mentioned that engine tech has moved on. They're much more reliable now. Check it out.


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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Which is why I mentioned that engine tech has moved on. They're much more reliable now. Check it out.


I dont trust single jet planes


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

Also, reading up to compare Phoenix and AMRAAM, I learned that the -120 can sense when it's being jammed, and then switch from active to passive-homing to kill the jammer (on the assumption that the jammer is probably the target anyway). That's some stupendous cool.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I dont trust single jet planes



I didn't realize I was talking to a pilot, I'm sorry. How many have you flown?

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## wuzak (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I dont trust single jet planes



Luckily the F/A-18 A/B Hornet and F-18E/F Super Hornet have two!

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> I didn't realize I was talking to a pilot, I'm sorry. How many have you flown?


I havent but 9 times out of 10 you wont make it in a single engine when it fails


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## wuzak (Feb 15, 2022)

As an aside, should the F-18E/F have received a new designation, considering that it is quite a bit larger than the legacy F/A-18s.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I havent but 9 times out of 10 you wont make it in a single engine when it fails



How many Hornets were lost by the Navy in 2021 due to engine failures? Let's see some numbers.

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> How many Hornets were lost by the Navy in 2021 due to engine failures? Let's see some numbers.


I dont know ask the navy


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

wuzak said:


> Luckily the F/A-18 A/B Hornet and F-18E/F Super Hornet have two!



There's that.


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I dont know ask the navy



That's not really convincing.


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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> That's not really convincing.


Well i don know you should ask them


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## vikingBerserker (Feb 15, 2022)

We could even save more money if we started rebuilding the F4F Wildcat and replaced all the fighters in the USN/USAF with it.

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## wuzak (Feb 15, 2022)

There is the other argument, that having two engines means your are twice as likely to have an engine failure.

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

vikingBerserker said:


> We could even save more money if we started rebuilding the F4F Wildcat and replaced all the fighters in the USN/USAF with it.


NO


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)



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## SaparotRob (Feb 15, 2022)

vikingBerserker said:


> We could even save more money if we started rebuilding the F4F Wildcat and replaced all the fighters in the USN/USAF with it.


Finally. We could reopen the Grumman plant at Bethpage!

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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> View attachment 658139


I'm telling you we need the tomcat back


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I'm telling you we need the tomcat back



Corsairs were cooler --even funkier wing, you see -- as well as cheaper, and don't need a catapult for the Ford-class carrier. They could also carry a 20-mm cannon and rockets.


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## VA5124 (Feb 15, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Corsairs were cooler --even funkier wing, you see -- as well as cheaper, and don't need a catapult for the Ford-class carrier. They could also carry a 20-mm cannon and rockets.


But you dont have AIM-54s


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> But you dont have AIM-54s



I bet we could figure out a rig. I mean, them sailors can get clever at times. Hell, they even attacked a U-boat with potatoes at one time.

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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> 2 engines is better than 1


Once again my young friend you need to crack the books open! How many engines does the F-18 have?


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I'm telling you we need the tomcat back


We also need MTV to start playing music videos again!

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## nuuumannn (Feb 15, 2022)

wuzak said:


> There is the other argument, that having two engines means your are twice as likely to have an engine failure.



Said in the best Groucho Marx imitation voice: "You know, he might be on to something..."



VA5124 said:


> I'm telling you we need the tomcat back



Yer noo listnin' laddie. Go back te yer comic books...

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## SaparotRob (Feb 15, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I'm telling you we need the tomcat back


I feel your pain, honest. The Tomcat is just on the other side of obsolete. A hot, still capable plane (ask a veteran Iraqi Air Force pilot) BUT the other guys now have its number. I felt the same way when the USN replaced the Phantom with some ridiculous high-tech tactical Tinkertoy called the F-14. The new plane turned out to be better than the F-4 for a changing environment. Things change. The USN needed the Tomcat then. I thought replacing the F-14 with the Hornet was purely cost cutting leaving us with a lesser plane. It may be a slower plane but it ain't that slower. Aerial conflict is always evolving. Technology got us a very capable successor to the F-14 in the Super Bug. 
It took some patient convincing by FlyboyJ to get me to understand that the F-35 is a very capable airplane despite it not being what I think a fighter should be. FJ has a soft spot for the F/A-18 too but with the F-35, it's even better. It ain't the days of Secretary John Lehman pushing for the 600 ship navy. It's more like Skynet than the Red Baron.

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## nuuumannn (Feb 15, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> It's more like Skynet than the Red Baron.




That's a good analogy if ever there was one.

You don't need as many aircraft as the enemy, you just need every aircraft you have knowing exactly what the enemy is gonna do before he does it.

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## SaparotRob (Feb 15, 2022)

And you need as reliable a plane as you can get.

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## nuuumannn (Feb 15, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> And you need as reliable a plane as you can get.



Ah, now you can't have everything... 

Concurrency is a good blanket term for inexplicable issues subject to revision whilst in service, which means it'll be fixed eventually...

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## SaparotRob (Feb 15, 2022)

Couldn't agree more!👍


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## GrauGeist (Feb 16, 2022)

I lived near MCAS El Toro for many years and while I remember (fondly) the F-14s coming in, nothing had had a better sound or looks of badassitude, than the F-4 Phantom...

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## wuzak (Feb 16, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Corsairs were cooler --even funkier wing, you see -- as well as cheaper, and don't need a catapult for the Ford-class carrier. They could also carry a 20-mm cannon and rockets.





VA5124 said:


> But you dont have AIM-54s



F4U could easily carry the weight of the AIM 54, so all you would need to do is adapt the radar and controller from the F-14.

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## GrauGeist (Feb 16, 2022)

wuzak said:


> F4U could easily carry the weight of the AIM 54, so all you would need to do is adapt the radar and controller from the F-14.


Thump *may* have been talking about the USN's A-7 Corsair?


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## wuzak (Feb 16, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> Thump *may* have been talking about the USN's A-7 Corsair?



Then I may have been confused by the talk of using F4Fs.

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## GrauGeist (Feb 16, 2022)

wuzak said:


> Then I may have been confused by the talk of using F4Fs.


Oops, I missed David's comment about the Wildcat. 😬

F4U it is, then...

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## ARTESH (Feb 16, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Hope
> 
> ARTESH
> jumps in on this thread to provide perspective from the only foreign-nation user.



It was completely new and high tech, back then. It was a sign of good relationship between 2 countries, and a source of pride. We have done the thing that no one else was, is, or will be able to do that. We dictate our needs to no. 1 power of the world. What we need, not what they want to sell.

Nowadays, it's a broken doll. For many reasons that you, older people, know way better than me.



Thumpalumpacus said:


> It's my understanding that the plane was the mount of several Iranian aces during their war with Iraq in the 80s. I think they still have five or six still operational?



Yes, it was. 16 pilots claimed to be "Ace" with at least 3 confirmed victories. If we add 2 and 1 victories pilots to the list, it would be around 28.

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## ARTESH (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I really wish we had kept the tomcat it was a very good plane could still hold its own today. Shes fast and very armed carrying AIM-54s plus a cannon and a bombload if you need her to. There was no need for the F-18 anything it can do the tomcat can better LONG LIVE THE TOMCAT YOU WILL BE MISSED


Tomcat will be missed, as well as all other types of planes that are retired now, or even then. That's right.

But the wrong place is that "Tomcat", or any other machine, is not that great as you see them in movies, games, or papers. They have their own weaknesses.

Something else, Tomcat was not designed as a Fighter or Bomber, in first place. it means it lacks some of equipment / space that was needed for a dedicated plane.

As a nostalgia, I get and agree with you, but let's be realistic, the mighty Tomcat, is nothing more than a broken doll, these days.

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## ARTESH (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> So ours missed Iran didnt have that problem


1st confirmed victory by Phoenix was done by Iranian pilots.

F-14 Tomcat, Register Number 3-6028, 
Major Ataiee, Mohammad Reza, Pilot; 
Captain Pashapour, Behrooz, WSO.

Target was an Iraqi Air Force MiG-21 , shot down over Bazideraz heights.

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## SaparotRob (Feb 16, 2022)

Go Grumman!

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I really wish we had kept the tomcat it was a very good plane could still hold its own today. Shes fast and very armed carrying AIM-54s plus a cannon and a bombload if you need her to. There was no need for the F-18 anything it can do the tomcat can better LONG LIVE THE TOMCAT YOU WILL BE MISSED



It was too expensive to maintain. It was an aging aircraft that was too difficult to keep flying. A good friend and co-worker of mine was an F-14 mechanic in the Navy in the mid 90s. He hated working on it. He said it was impossible to keep them fully mission capable and ready. Constantly breaking and inoperable. 

The F-18 is a better strike aircraft, and can perform the job of the Tomcat much cheaper.

The 18 is nearing the end of its life as well, but that is why newer generation aircraft are coming online.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 16, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> Thump *may* have been talking about the USN's A-7 Corsair?



Oh, no, I was talking about my beloved F4U.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> First, the latest bock F/A-18s are miles ahead of the F-14 in terms of combat capability, maintainability and operational costs. It WAS a great aircraft in it's day but the sun has set on the aircraft. Second, I worked with people who maintained them in their later years and these folks, airframers, powerplant folks and avionic guys (AKA "Trons") were relieved to see the F-14 go. Pull the Top Gun tape out of your VCR, the sequel comes out this summer!



Yeap, my friend was a 14 mechanic in the 90s. He has nothing good to say.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I would say you could put an F-14 in to any fight you put a hornet in and it would still win and do it faster than a hornet considering we have AIM-54s you dont



Speed is not everything. As FBJ pointed out the latest 18 coming off the assembly line are more capable even without the Pheonix, and they do it cheaper. The F-14 was a great plane, but it outlived its useful life.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> It is very capable though besides as much as we spent buliding them might s well use them besides have you seen a better looking jet



Capable is irrelevant when your enemy can defeat it. All weapons systems were capable at one point, but surpassed by more capable systems. Such is the case of the Phoenix. If you don’t develop better systems than you will soon be left behind by your enemies. 

Looks are even more irrelevant. Looks only matter to model builders and message forum posters.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> But when they are flying their just as dangerous as they used to be !!!!!!!!!!!!!



They are flying an obsolete antiquated aircraft. Every modern 4, 4.5, or 5th Gen fighter will smoke it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Of course they're dangerous. No one here has said the Tommy was a weak fighter. We've only pointed out why it was superseded.
> 
> *I think both the F-22* and F-35 are ugly. But I'd be willing to bet they're good.



Blasphemous! The F-22 is a thing of beauty! I am in awe every morning I see her.

I agree on the F-35 though. Ugly little sister.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Still lets see the hornet and AIM-120 try to do that



You’re failing to understand the AIM-120 is a more capable and reliable weapons system.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Look at this the B-52 have flown since the 60s and no one said replace it so if it can do it so can the tomcat



Apples to oranges. Two different types of weapons systems performing totally different roles. The B-52 has also been adapted to a different role now, primarily the delivery of cruise missiles from uncontested airspace. The days of the B-52 carpet bombing a modern enemy into the stone age has surpassed. Modern AA systems and smart weapon technology has ensured that.

I’m still amazed at the B-52 though, every time I see it. I was out at an AF base for work last week, saw a B-52 taking off and landing in the pattern. A strange thing of beauty. I love its landing gear system.

Saw a B-2 doing touch and goes too. Also a thing of beauty.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 16, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Blasphemous! The F-22 is a thing of beauty! I am in awe every morning I see her.
> 
> I agree on the F-35 though. Ugly little sister.



So close and yet so far away ...

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> So close and yet so far away ...
> 
> View attachment 658176



I admit I might be biased like a mother is to her child.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I rather have minmal return then spend billions on something we didnt and dont need



That is why you do not run a military. Thankfully too, I might add. 

1. You would have an antiquated air force with a 20% mission capable rate.

2. Your enemies would have far superior capabilities.

3. A lot of good men and women would die because of your poor decision making and leadership.

But hey, as long as you look good while you are being blown from the sky is all that matters right?

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> But it would be cheaper then buliding the F-18



NO!

It would not! Do you understand what it costs to fly a combat aircraft. Jet fuel, training, maintenance!

Over time you are going to spend more just trying to keep them flying. Over time aircraft become more expensive to operate and maintain.

You are also still failing to understand that the F-14’s capabilities have been eclipsed.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> But it would be cheaper then buliding the F-18



Wrong again. The F-18 is made from better materials and fewer parts. It also takes less time to build. The F-18 is cheaper to build, operate, and maintain while providing greater capabilities.

Why do I feel like we all sound like a broken record? lol


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> 2 engines is better than 1



The 18 has two engines, however…

As others have pointed out, engine reliability has improved so much since the days of the F-14.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I dont trust single jet planes



Why not?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> I didn't realize I was talking to a pilot, I'm sorry. How many have you flown?



I bet he stayed at a Holiday Inn Express

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Well i don know you should ask them



But you made a claim, you should back it up.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I'm telling you we need the tomcat back



And you are 100% wrong, and everyone is 100% in realization of this.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> But you dont have AIM-54s



You sure are hung up on this antiquated and unreliable weapons systems aren’t you?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> I bet we could figure out a rig. I mean, them sailors can get clever at times. Hell, they even attacked a U-boat with potatoes at one time.



I heard some F-14s from the Nimitz splashed a couple Zeros once. That proves why we need the Tomcat today.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

Seriously, lets put this to bed.

The F-14 was an amazing aircraft for its day. I loved it. It is actually my favorite post war jet fighter ever built. 

The Tomcat however is now outclassed and obsolete. That is no knock on it. That is simply what happens to all warbirds. Every sexy hot girl is eventually passed over by a hotter newer one. It’s the circle of life.

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## ARTESH (Feb 16, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> 3. A lot of good men and women would die because of your poor decision making and leadership.


Nothing about topic, but about this one line, or whatever!!!

I can name many from Iran - Iraq war , or in a more general saying, after 1979 events ...

But I'm afraid it get too political / religious.


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## ARTESH (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> But you dont have AIM-54s


Well mate, it seems that you love these things more than us! And it's surprising for me!!!


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## vikingBerserker (Feb 16, 2022)

In regards to cost, the jigs used to build the F-14 were destroyed so you have that added expense as well. 

I will however point out it would be much cheaper to build jigs for an F4F. But if you're really worried about cost we could go back to the Sopwith Camel. Not sure it could carry 2 x AIM 120's but I'm pretty sure we can duct tape at least one on it. We'd have to add then move a radio but that will change the CoG, but we can add a groundhog as a counter balance.

Would not need a catapult so the carriers could be smaller.

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## special ed (Feb 16, 2022)

Do we have two groundhogs now?

Regarding the comment of reading a book and another about Groucho Marx, He once said,"Outside of a dog ,a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog it's too dark to read."

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## GrauGeist (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I rather have minmal return then spend billions on something we didnt and dont need


Want to know what happens when you have an air Force that's loaded with "cool" but out-dated equipment?

Check out the air war between Iraq and the Coalition during Desert Storm.

The Iraq air Force was virtually eliminated not in months or weeks, but days...

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## SaparotRob (Feb 16, 2022)

Or hours.

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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> Want to know what happens when you have an air Force that's loaded with "cool" but out-dated equipment?
> 
> Check out the air war between Iraq and the Coalition during Desert Storm.
> 
> The Iraq air Force was virtually eliminated not in months or weeks, but days...


Then how is moldiva and crotia still flying migs


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Then how is moldiva and crotia still flying migs



Because they don’t have the money to upgrade?

What do you think will happen to Croatia or Moldiva if they fight someone who modernized their fleet?

I notice you are ignoring the majority of posts in this thread…

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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Because they don’t have the money upgrade?
> 
> What do you think will happen to Croatia or Moldiva if they fight someone who modernized their fleet?
> 
> I notice you are ignoring the majority of posts in this thread…


And will continue to you will never convince me that the tomcat needsed to be replaced because it didnt


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## GrauGeist (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Then how is moldiva and crotia still flying migs


I own and drive a 1962 Chevrolet Nova, but there's absolutely zero chances that I could beat a 2021 Dodge Hellcat at the light.

It is fun to drive with it's highly modified straight-6 engine, looks great parked at car shows and gets alot of attention.

Back in the 80's, my Nova was a terror on the street scene, BUT it simply cannot compete with modern muscle cars and their technology decades later nd I'm not willing to dump mega bucks into it to make it able to be competitive by today's standards. I could literally by a new car for what it would cost.

The same goes for military aircraft. What was once top-tier gets eclipsed by new technology.

Otherwise, everyone would still have F-86s, MiG-15s and Me262s...

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> And will continue to you will never convince me that the tomcat needsed to be replaced because it didnt



Ignoring facts, and making up your “alternative facts” only leads to ignorance. You have the right to remain so if you choose. You are the one who has to live with it.

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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Ignoring facts, and making up your “alternative facts” only leads to ignorance. You have the right to remain so if you choose. You are the one who has to live with it.


It is fast has heck has one of the best missles we ever made and it looked good doing it


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## buffnut453 (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> It is fast has heck has one of the best missles we ever made and it looked good doing it



And had an RCS the size of a battleship.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

You also demonstrate a complete lack of understanding in aerospace technologies, development, and basic military strategies.

That is honestly not meant as an insult either. I assume you are simply a young kid, who thinks war fighting is like playing a playstation game. I think (hope) as you get older you will start viewing things differently. Stick around here long enough, and maybe we can help with that. You have to be willing to open your mind, though, and use some critical thinking (which I am sure you are fully capable of).

And on that note my friend, I will not waste any more of my time with this discussion until you are ready to listen.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> It is fast has heck has one of the best missles we ever made and it looked good doing it



Last words:

That means nothing when the majority of your fleet is grounded for maintenance issues, and when it does fly is eclipsed by better aircraft. There is more to combat flying than speed, and the AIM-54 is unreliable and now obsolite.

We are blessed here to have an actual former USAF fighter pilot in our community. 

 BiffF15
used to fly F-15 Eagles. Maybe he will waste his time, and you will listen.


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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

buffnut453 said:


> And had an RCS the size of a battleship.


So your hornet isnt any smaller


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## buffnut453 (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> So your hornet isnt any smaller



I never mentioned the Hornet...but my F-35 certainly is smaller.

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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

buffnut453 said:


> I never mentioned the Hornet...but my F-35 certainly is smaller.


Your F-35 is stealth though we arent


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

I want to reiterate (for some here) my post was not meant as an insult or attack. With youth comes naivety, and we all have been there. One has to have a willingness to learn though…

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## SaparotRob (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Then how is moldiva and crotia still flying migs


That’s because that is what they can afford. 
I’m sure they would prefer Eurofighters.

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## buffnut453 (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Your F-35 is stealth though we arent



Exactly. You said "And will continue to you will never convince me that the tomcat needsed to be replaced because it didnt". However, the Tomcat is not survivable against modern air defence systems, so having a stealthy platform is critical. Thus the Tomcat did need to be replaced.

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## SaparotRob (Feb 16, 2022)

One of the toughest things in life to learn is realizing when you’re wrong. It’s even tougher to admit it. It’s not a win-lose thing. 
You have no idea how lucky you and I are to participate with these guys. All I have is an occasional brilliant insight. They REALLY know this stuff. They get PAID to know this stuff. These are the guys that aviation folks go to when aircraft are on the line. l take them at their word on things with wings. If you’re talking about stuff that is purely subjective like “the B-70 is the most awesome looking plane ever“, that’s when you stand your ground!

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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> One of the toughest things in life to learn is realizing when you’re wrong. It’s even tougher to admit it. It’s not a win-lose thing.
> You have no idea how lucky you and I are to participate with these guys. All I have is an occasional brilliant insight. They REALLY know this stuff. They get PAID to know this stuff. These are the guys that aviation folks go to when aircraft are on the line. l take them at their word on things with wings. If you’re talking about stuff that is purely subjective like “the B-70 is the most awesome looking plane ever“, that’s when you stand your ground!


I am standing my ground the Tomcat is the only naval fighter we need


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## SaparotRob (Feb 16, 2022)

Oh well.


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## GrauGeist (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I am standing my ground the Tomcat is the only naval fighter we need


I think the Me262 will easily snuff your F-14 because it looks cool and I like it.

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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> I think the Me262 will easily snuff your F-14 because it looks cool and I like it.


And you lose to a AIM-54


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## SaparotRob (Feb 16, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> I think the Me262 will easily snuff your F-14 because it looks cool and I like it.


I gotta go with GrauGeist.


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## SaparotRob (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> And you lose to a AIM-54


Providing you don’t lose the AIM-54 in the ocean.


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## GrauGeist (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> And you lose to a AIM-54


Nope, my spread of R4Ms was a kill - you lose.

You cannot beat awesome looks with a missile.

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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> Providing you don’t lose the AIM-54 in the ocean.


This is not an AIM-7 dude its not going to fly off the rail and fall in the ocean or get stuck under a mig like an AIM-9 i read about did


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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> Nope, my spread of R4Ms was a kill - you lose.
> 
> You cannot beat awesome looks with a missile.


100 nmi range we win you lose moving on to the next target


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## SaparotRob (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> This is not an AIM-7 dude its not going to fly off the rail and fall in the ocean or get stuck under a mig like an AIM-9 i read about did


No, the AIM-54 is much heavier so it won’t fail like the AIM-7 or -9.


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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> No, the AIM-54 is much heavier so it won’t fail like the AIM-7 or -9.


The AIM-54 is best missle we ever bulit

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## GrauGeist (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> 100 nmi range we win you lose moving on to the next target


Nope, no kills BVR, have to get within visual to engage - too late, the R4Ms turn you into a screen door.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> One of the toughest things in life to learn is realizing when you’re wrong. It’s even tougher to admit it. It’s not a win-lose thing.
> You have no idea how lucky you and I are to participate with these guys. All I have is an occasional brilliant insight. They REALLY know this stuff. They get PAID to know this stuff. These are the guys that aviation folks go to when aircraft are on the line. l take them at their word on things with wings. If you’re talking about stuff that is purely subjective like “the B-70 is the most awesome looking plane ever“, that’s when you stand your ground!



We all are lucky. I feel blessed to have the opportunity to listen and learn from everyone here.

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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Then how is moldiva and crotia still flying migs


$$$ or lack there of

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## SaparotRob (Feb 16, 2022)

Once they get in visual range, the F-14 driver is stunned into inaction by the 262’s awesomeness and left incapacitated.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> Oh well.



I would not waste any more time. I’m even thinking he is trolling all of us now.


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## buffnut453 (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I am standing my ground the Tomcat is the only naval fighter we need

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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> Nope, no kills BVR, have to get within visual to engage - too late, the R4Ms turn you into a screen door.


M61A1 rotary cannon


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## SaparotRob (Feb 16, 2022)

Yeah, but I see now why you guys have so much fun with this. 
Did you get the bit about the B-70? That’s from his original thread! How fickle youth can be.

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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 16, 2022)

In the mean time....

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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> Yeah, but I see now why you guys have so much fun with this.
> Did you get the bit about the B-70? That’s from his original thread! How fickle youth can be.


B-70 is the prettiest

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)



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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

Once is not enough…

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## GrauGeist (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> B-70 is the prettiest


I thought the Aussie twins were?


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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> I thought the Aussie twins were?


Planewise though the B-70 is the prettiest


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I am standing my ground the Tomcat is the only naval fighter we need


So I guess you're smarter than a gaggle of engineers, navy officers (some who flew the F-14 and F/A-18) military analysts (some former military officers) and DoD procurement officers, some with Master degrees (or more) who saw fit to retire the F-14 because it was old, obsolete and became a maintenance pig?

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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> So I guess you're smarter than a gaggle of engineers, navy officers (some who flew the F-14 and F/A-18) military analysts (some former military officers) and DoD procurement officers, some with Master degrees (or more)?


Never claimed to be that smart


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## SaparotRob (Feb 16, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> So I guess you're smarter than a gaggle of engineers, navy officers (some who flew the F-14 and F/A-18) military analysts (some former military officers) and DoD procurement officers, some with Master degrees (or more)?


It’s been working for me so far.

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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Never claimed to be that smart


Well until you are ( or even one tenth of that) you'll never justify your position


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## SaparotRob (Feb 16, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Well until you are ( or even one tenth of that) you'll never justify your position


Then explain Congress.

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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Well until you are ( or even one tenth of that) you'll never justify your position


I never claimed to be smart and im sorry if i sound like an arse i just love planes love talking about them and i do have planes i perfer over others

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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 16, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> Then explain Congress.


Some things defy explanation!

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## SaparotRob (Feb 16, 2022)

I understand that. Hey,I like the Amiot. 143 and the Brewster Buffalo.

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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I never claimed to be smart and im sorry if i sound like an arse i just love planes love talking about them and i do have planes i perfer over others


Well you're trying to justify your love for an aircraft based on personal bias, not real world facts! There are many (some on this forum) who have worked on these machines or have close ties to some who do, and while we don't "know it all" we have the experience to discuss this from a level or authority rather than bias. Go back to the beginning of this gaggle and re-read post 14. Hopefully some of that might sink in!


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## SaparotRob (Feb 16, 2022)

This is a blast but I really gotta go grab some groceries now.


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 16, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> I understand that. Hey,I like the Amiot. 143 and the Brewster Buffalo.


The I-16, CR.32 and PZL-7 for me!

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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 16, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> This is a blast but I really gotta go grab some groceries now.


Me too - we're expecting 8 to 12 inches of snow this afternoon!

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> Then explain Congress.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Me too - we're expecting 8 to 12 inches of snow this afternoon!



We are expecting some tomorrow as well.

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## GrauGeist (Feb 16, 2022)

We're having a false spring here in NorCal at the moment - some rain (and snow in the upper elevations) would be nice before real spring and summer kick in...

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I never claimed to be smart and im sorry if i sound like an arse i just love planes love talking about them and i do have planes i perfer over others



Ok, I will come out of not wasting my time retirement…

There is nothing wrong with loving planes. We all do. That is why we are here. I live, breath, and sleep airplanes. All my adult life I have worked in the aviation industry one way or another. Today happens to be the 8th anniversary of my very first solo toward getting my pilots license. I’m now trying to pass on my joy and love of planes to my children.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to talk about planes, and the ones we love. That us why we are here. 

There is a difference between personal love and reality or fact though. Just because someone loves something, does not make it correct ir what is the best. The F-14 was an amazing aircraft (it still is), and when it was introduced it utilized the latest and best technology. No one here will dispute that…

However, like all airplanes, it became obsolete. The AIM-120 is more capable than the AIM-54 (which is older technology). The latest block F-18 are as capable or better than the F-14, more reliable, and cheaper to build and maintain. These are all facts. Best looking does not win wars. 

Look, I love the F-14. It is my favorite jet fighter, however, no matter how much I love it (or you love it) will change that the newer generation if US aircraft (F-18, F-15, F-35, F-22) are more capable aircraft, and so are the aircraft of our potential enemies.

Thats life kid. I guarantee you that when the 6th Gen Fighter enters production and service, we will be looking to develop its replacement. It’s how you stay relevant and at the top.

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## vikingBerserker (Feb 16, 2022)

Say, we could ditch these new fangled B-2/B-22 stealth bombers and go old school, 

B-10's FOR EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## BiffF15 (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> I really wish we had kept the tomcat it was a very good plane could still hold its own today. Shes fast and very armed carrying AIM-54s plus a cannon and a bombload if you need her to. There was no need for the F-18 anything it can do the tomcat can better LONG LIVE THE TOMCAT YOU WILL BE MISSED


VA5124,

Welcome to a great place to talk and learn airplanes! There are some very knowledgeable folks on here, with a lot of working experience on, in and around planes / aviation. I take it you are younger than the average guy in here (we all probably started our aviation journey just like you are) so be open to different opinions (often backed up by facts, written word, published articles), ETC. Hang in there and you will get to share and learn about some cool, obscure, popular or just plane neat aircraft.

I just read FlyBoyJ's post number 14 and its spot on. Yes, the movie brought the spotlight onto the F14, but remember it was a movie. Just a movie.

If the AIM-54 was so awesome sauce why isn't it in use still (the F15 and YF-12 I think both tested it)?

The USN has Zero kills to my knowledge with the F-14/AIM-54 combo.

If the F14 was as good as you want it to be, why wasn't it in the lead night one of Desert Storm and why did it get zero kills during that conflict?

I flew F-15A-Ds for 17 years. I have fought Tomcats plenty of times and speak from real world experience that it was past time to go. The Eagle version I flew is past it’s prime as well, but still has some claws.

Also, the F18EFG has much more advanced capabilities than is advertised. For a good reason.

The AIM-7 was a great missile in close, and could handle maneuvering targets infinitely better than the AIM-54. 

Again, welcome aboard. The longer you stick around the more you will learn (which is why I’m still on here a decade plus later).

Cheers,
Biff

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

BiffF15 said:


> VA5124,
> 
> Welcome to a great place to talk and learn airplanes! There are some very knowledgeable folks on here, with a lot of working experience on, in and around planes / aviation. I take it you are younger than the average guy in here (we all probably started our aviation journey just like you are) so be open to different opinions (often backed up by facts, written word, published articles), ETC. Hang in there and you will get to share and learn about some cool, obscure, popular or just plane neat aircraft.
> 
> ...



When this gentleman speaks on modern air combat, I open my ears and I listen. A world of knowledge and real world experience he has. Thanks for being here Biff.

VAT5124, I do hope you stick around. It’s nice having a useful presence. I’m not trying to pick on you, I’m just trying to get you to open up and listen a lil.

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## SaparotRob (Feb 16, 2022)

vikingBerserker said:


> Say, we could ditch these new fangled B-2/B-22 stealth bombers and go old school,
> 
> B-10's FOR EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The Boeing B-9 is prettier.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> The Boeing B-9 is prettier.



Even the ugly chicks need loving too. Thanks for stepping up and jumping on the grenade.

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## buffnut453 (Feb 16, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Even the ugly chics need loving too. Thanks for stepping up and jumping on the grenade.



That's why I love the Skua. I'd never even heard of it until, as a kid on holiday one year, I found an old Novo kit of the Skua (ex-Frog moulds) and I was just captivated. It was slow, not particularly attractive, and had a built-in drag-maker courtesy of that almost vertical windscreen...but I still love it to this day.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 16, 2022)

buffnut453 said:


> That's why I love the Skua. I'd never even heard of it until, as a kid on holiday one year, I found an old Novo kit of the Skua (ex-Frog moulds) and I was just captivated. It was slow, not particularly attractive, and had a built-in drag-maker courtesy of that almost vertical windscreen...but I still love it to this day.



You found it hidden under your dad’s bed huh?

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## vikingBerserker (Feb 16, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> The Boeing B-9 is prettier.









YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!!!!!!!

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## special ed (Feb 16, 2022)

A B-9 with R-2800s

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## nuuumannn (Feb 16, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> It’s been working for me so far.



Don't discredit your contribution, my friend...



SaparotRob said:


> Then explain Congress.



Didn't they get elected_ by the people_ into power?  And Americans think communist style governments are a bad idea! (that was a joke, okay...) 



DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> When this gentleman speaks on modern air combat, I open my ears and I listen. A world of knowledge and real world experience he has. Thanks for being here Biff.



Agree 100 percent. Please keep us informed about your world, Biff, it's very enlightening.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 16, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Wrong again. The F-18 is made from better materials and fewer parts. It also takes less time to build. The F-18 is cheaper to build, operate, and maintain while providing greater capabilities.
> 
> Why do I feel like we all sound like a broken record? lol



Probably because you're talking to one!


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## Wildcat (Feb 16, 2022)

This discussion immediately reminded me of the debate over the RAAF retiring the F-111. Fans argued that it was still a capable platform - it was faster and had a longer ranger then the Super Hornets we replaced it with. Though an awesome aircraft, it was old and costly to maintain. This quote from the XO of 1 sqn regarding the F-111 is pertinent to the Tomcat, particularly the huge efforts to keep an old aircraft in the air.


> "Unfortunately, in an era of true look-down, shoot-down radars on enemy fighters, the F-111 is also an aircraft that can't defend itself well," added Riddel. "Flying it, the crews really have to sweat the small stuff. The cockpit has no head-up display, so the crews really have to work to the best of their abilities. The aircraft is old. It requires *187 maintenance man-hours per flight hour*. The time has come to move on."


F-111: Australia's Big Stick | Code One Magazine

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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 16, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Me too - we're expecting 8 to 12 inches of snow this afternoon!



Keep your head down, brotha, and drive safe.

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## buffnut453 (Feb 16, 2022)

Wildcat said:


> This discussion immediately reminded me of the debate over the RAAF retiring the F-111. Fans argued that it was still a capable platform - it was faster and had a longer ranger then the Super Hornets we replaced it with. Though an awesome aircraft, it was old and costly to maintain. This quote from the XO of 1 sqn regarding the F-111 is pertinent to the Tomcat, particularly the huge efforts to keep an old aircraft in the air.
> 
> F-111: Australia's Big Stick | Code One Magazine



Ok...this is spooky. I know Dave Riddel, former F-111 nav. We did the RAF Aerosystems Course together at Cranwell in 2001-2002. Small world, huh?

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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Keep your head down, brotha, and drive safe.


The afterburner from a tomcat would help that


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> The afterburner from a tomcat would help that



I'm doubtful it'd fit on his muffler, but I'm sure he appreciates the advice.

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## VA5124 (Feb 16, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> I'm doubtful it'd fit on his muffler, but I'm sure he appreciates the advice.


It was supossed to be funny


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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 16, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> It was supossed to be funny



As was my reply.

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## wuzak (Feb 17, 2022)

I now have this vision in my head of an F4U-4N with an AIM 54 under each wing as well as the radar section to the F-14 nose attached to the leading edge of one of the wings!

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## VA5124 (Feb 17, 2022)

wuzak said:


> I now have this vision in my head of an F4U-4N with an AIM 54 under each wing as well as the radar section to the F-14 nose attached to the leading edge of one of the wings!


Dumb idea


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## SaparotRob (Feb 17, 2022)

wuzak said:


> I now have this vision in my head of an F4U-4N with an AIM 54 under each wing as well as the radar section to the F-14 nose attached to the leading edge of one of the wings!


Cool!


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## GrauGeist (Feb 17, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Dumb idea


Just be glad your Tomcat never encountered the Empire...

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## VA5124 (Feb 17, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> Just be glad your Tomcat never encountered the Empire...
> 
> View attachment 658278


Star wars dont scare the cat stiill would run circles around you

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## VA5124 (Feb 17, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> Just be glad your Tomcat never encountered the Empire...
> 
> View attachment 658278


Its going to be odd for them when they hear fox 3 fox 3 and see a the phoeix flying at their face


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## GrauGeist (Feb 17, 2022)

Yep, run circles around a Twin Ion Engine fighter with turbo-lasers.
Even the X-wings couldn't evade them.

And if we want to escalate, then enter the Viper killer...

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## VA5124 (Feb 17, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> Yep, run circles around a Twin Ion Engine fighter with turbo-lasers.
> Even the X-wings couldn't evade them.
> 
> And if we want to escalate, then enter the Viper killer...
> ...


Fox 3 fox 3 splash one

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## wuzak (Feb 17, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Star wars dont scare the cat stiill would run circles around you





VA5124 said:


> Its going to be odd for them when they hear fox 3 fox 3 and see a the phoeix flying at their face



The Tomcat would have a good chance of surviving an encounter, since fire control systems in Star Wars seems to not work very well.

But the Tie fighters have the ability to leave the atmosphere - how well to Phoenix missiles work in space?

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## VA5124 (Feb 17, 2022)

wuzak said:


> The Tomcat would have a good chance of surviving an encounter, since fire control systems in Star Wars seems to not work very well.
> 
> But the Tie fighters have the ability to leave the atmosphere - how well to Phoenix missiles work in space?


Idk we never tested them above the karman line


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## wuzak (Feb 17, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Dumb idea



Just where this discussion has taken us - into silliness.

Perhaps we should have chosen the F6F-3N instead? Then at least you can say the Phoenixes were fired from a 'Cat!

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## GrauGeist (Feb 17, 2022)

wuzak said:


> The Tomcat would have a good chance of surviving an encounter, since fire control systems in Star Wars seems to not work very well.
> 
> But the Tie fighters have the ability to leave the atmosphere - how well to Phoenix missiles work in space?


The Stormtroopers couldn't hit the side of a barn if they were leaning against it - the TIE fighters took out more rebel heroes in five minutes than the Stormtrooper did in three episodes.

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## VA5124 (Feb 17, 2022)

wuzak said:


> Just where this discussion has taken us - into silliness.
> 
> Perhaps we should have chosen the F6F-3N instead? Then at least you can say the Phoenixes were fired from a 'Cat!


Non tomcat or no cat no tie fighters no hellcats no wildcats no panthers (we dont have a QB anyways)

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## wuzak (Feb 17, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Idk we never tested them above the karman line



What directional control did they use?


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## GrauGeist (Feb 17, 2022)

wuzak said:


> What directional control did they use?


The lever on the steering column?

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## VA5124 (Feb 17, 2022)

wuzak said:


> What directional control did they use?


AIM-54s are radar guided not going to work at that height the karman line is 62 MI above us i dont see firing one and it hitting at that height


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## wuzak (Feb 17, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> AIM-54s are radar guided not going to work at that height the karman line is 62 MI above us i dont see firing one and it hitting at that height



Do they have vectoring nozzles or just use aerodynamic controls?

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## VA5124 (Feb 17, 2022)

wuzak said:


> Do they have vectoring nozzles or just use aerodynamic controls?


Idk that answer but i know it wont work above the karman line you cant fly a missle in space


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## VA5124 (Feb 17, 2022)

wuzak said:


> Do they have vectoring nozzles or just use aerodynamic controls?


You cant fire it in space anyways most rocket engines are air breathing no air=no missle


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## wuzak (Feb 17, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> You cant fire it in space anyways most rocket engines are air breathing no air=no missle



It's a solid propellant rocket motor. Not a gas turbine/jet, nor a ramjet. It doesn't need air to work.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 17, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> Idk that answer but i know it wont work above the karman line you cant fly a missle in space



The F-15 Eagle says hold my beer. In 1985 an F-15 launched an ASM-135 missile and destroyed a satellite in space.

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## BiffF15 (Feb 17, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The F-15 Eagle says hold my beer. In 1985 an F-15 launched an ASM-135 missile and destroyed a satellite in space.
> 
> View attachment 658321


Flown that jet many times.

A cool side story is that guys son also flew Eagles, and we brought him down to Homestead, painted the kill markings on the jet, and let him fly it. This is mentioned at the tail end of the article.









That Time an F-15 Pilot Shot Down a Satellite


On Sept. 13, 1985, F-15 test pilot Maj. Wilbert "Doug" Pearson (now retired Maj Gen) took off from Edwards AFB.



avgeekery.com





Cheers,
Biff

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## special ed (Feb 17, 2022)

Of course rockets work in space. They put up the satellites and send people to the moon. The AIM-54 would have been vaporised as it came off the rail. Put the comic books away and find out what's going on in the real world. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 17, 2022)

BiffF15 said:


> Flown that jet many times.
> 
> A cool side story is that guys son also flew Eagles, and we brought him down to Homestead, painted the kill markings on the jet, and let him fly it. This is mentioned at the tail end of the article.
> 
> ...



You actually flew the Celestial Eagle? Very cool.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 17, 2022)

special ed said:


> Of course rockets work in space. They put up the satellites and send people to the moon. The AIM-54 would have been vaporised as it came off the rail. Put the comic books away and find out what's going on in the real world. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.



It’s been rough couple days.

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## BiffF15 (Feb 17, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> You actually flew the Celestial Eagle? Very cool.


It was just another jet in the squadron. Aaron started digging into tail numbers and was the guy who discovered it (he is mentioned in the article). I’ve flown all but two or so of the 85xxx tail numbers, a good chunk of the 86s, and a large swath of the 75 and 76s (first two digits of the tail numbers). My tail on active duty
was 85118 (first C model to reach 4K and 5k flying hours). I got to shoot an AIM-7 off it as well. It’s now part of the Massachusetts ANG.

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## SaparotRob (Feb 17, 2022)

"just another jet in the squadron".

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## SaparotRob (Feb 17, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> You actually flew the Celestial Eagle? Very cool.


You know, that sounds like the name of a Japanese fighter translated into English.

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## special ed (Feb 17, 2022)

BiffF15 said:


> It was just another jet in the squadron. Aaron started digging into tail numbers and was the guy who discovered it (he is mentioned in the article). I’ve flown all but two or so of the 85xxx tail numbers, a good chunk of the 86s, and a large swath of the 75 and 76s (first two digits of the tail numbers). My tail on active duty
> was 85118 (first C model to reach 4K and 5k flying hours). I got to shoot an AIM-7 off it as well. It’s now part of the Massachusetts ANG.


Did you ever fly the F-15A 73-0086 now on a stick @ Jackson Barracks NG Hq New Orleans?


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## vikingBerserker (Feb 17, 2022)

That's just fricken awesome!

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## BiffF15 (Feb 17, 2022)

special ed said:


> Did you ever fly the F-15A 73-0086 now on a stick @ Jackson Barracks NG Hq New Orleans?


I honestly can’t say. At F15 school (Replacement Training Unit / RTU) I flew the early model A/Bs but don’t have records of those tail numbers.

The USAF bought Eagles in batches. The A/B models were made up until 1977, then C/D models started 1978 (MacAir was making F-4s and F-15s at the same time) up through 1986. The C/D could utilize conformal fuel tanks, had 2k more internal fuel and improved radar.

In 1983 the MSIP (multi stage improvement program) which further enhanced the radar and allowed for AIM-120 employment and RWR (radar warning receiver). 1985 added improved F-100 engines (F100-100 upgraded to F100-220) which was essentially the addition of a FADEC as well as an improved Internal Counter Measures system.

So the USAF then went back to the newest A/B models and started converting them along with the pre-1983 C/D models to bring them up to MSIP standard (there were variations in these upgrades).

The school house flew the non-MSIP A/B models when I went through. I could have flown 73 and up tails but I don’t honestly remember. I will check my personal logbook and see if I recorded any of those sorties.

Cheers,
Biff

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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 17, 2022)

wuzak said:


> Just where this discussion has taken us - into silliness.
> 
> Perhaps we should have chosen the F6F-3N instead? Then at least you can say the Phoenixes were fired from a 'Cat!

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## Thumpalumpacus (Feb 17, 2022)

VA5124 said:


> You cant fire it in space anyways most rocket engines are air breathing no air=no missle



Wrong. Most rocket engines carry their own oxidizer as well as their fuel. It's kinda how we, you know, got to the moon and suchlike.

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## GTX (Feb 17, 2022)

Thread needs a cool photo

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 17, 2022)

I feel the need, the need for speed…

lol

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