# Forrestal Memorial



## FLYBOYJ (Jul 29, 2021)



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## Kyushuj7w (Jul 29, 2021)

This is the tragic story of the fire on the *USS Forrestal * (CVA-59). On the morning of *July 29 *1967, the warship was preparing to launch its fighters when a Zuni rocket from an F-4B Phantom II jet was accidentally launched and hit a parked A-4 Skyhawk jet waiting to take off. Up went the fuel and eventually a 1000 lb bomb creating a chain reaction.

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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 29, 2021)

Kyushuj7w said:


> This is the tragic story of the fire on the *USS Forrestal * (CVA-59). On the morning of *July 29 *1967, the warship was preparing to launch its fighters when a Zuni rocket from an F-4B Phantom II jet was accidentally launched and hit a parked A-4 Skyhawk jet waiting to take off. Up went the fuel and eventually a 1000 lb bomb creating a chain reaction.



This training film was shown to every sailor who had to go through Damage Control School. I took the training twice.


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 29, 2021)

Absolutely amazing at the number of casualties.


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## fubar57 (Jul 29, 2021)




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## rochie (Jul 29, 2021)




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## msxyz (Jul 30, 2021)

I remember reading something also about very old bombs filled with Composition B setting off in the fire before they could be ejected because the casings were rusted and the explosive was past its service life (RDX contained in the composition B is not as stable as pure TNT).


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 30, 2021)

msxyz said:


> I remember reading something also about very old bombs filled with Composition B setting off in the fire before they could be ejected because the casings were rusted and the explosive was past its service life (RDX contained in the composition B is not as stable as pure TNT).


I scanned through part of the accident report, there is mention of "555 pound bombs using composition B" but no mention of anything else. There was a lot of scrutiny about the Zuni rockets and the way fuses were safety wired. I'd like to know your source for this because it would seem this would have been mentioned in boldface. Watch the film of this incident on post 2, I don't think there was time to "eject" anything.


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## msxyz (Jul 30, 2021)

FLYBOYJ said:


> I scanned through part of the accident report, there is mention of "555 pound bombs using composition B" but no mention of anything else. There was a lot of scrutiny about the Zuni rockets and the way fuses were safety wired. I'd like to know your source for this because it would seem this would have been mentioned in boldface. Watch the film of this incident on post 2, I don't think there was time to "eject" anything.


I looked through my archived links but I only found this so far:


U.S.S. Forrestal Fire 1967 | A-4 Skyhawk Association



"The impact of the Zuni rocket dislodged at least one, probably two, 1,000-lb AN-M65A1 bombs, which fell into the flames. The outdated AN-M65’s were being used because of an acute shortage of Mk 83 general purpose 1,000-lb bombs resulting from the intense Navy bombing campaign in North Vietnam which expended bombs faster than they could be produced. The AN-M65 bombs had been brought aboard the day before, were over a decade old, in very poor condition and considered an extreme safety hazard by the Commanding Officer of the Forrestal, Captain John Beling, and according to the ship’s Ordnance Officer were an imminent danger to the ship and should be jettisoned overboard. Doing so, however, would have necessitated scrubbing that day’s combat mission over North Vietnam, so Captain Beling reluctantly accepted the risk."

Maybe the problem was not the age of the ordnance itself but the fact that they happened to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Composition B, however, explodes more readily than other explosives under the heat of a fire.


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## XBe02Drvr (Jul 30, 2021)

msxyz said:


> Maybe the problem was not the age of the ordnance itself but the fact that they happened to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time.


They were hung on aircraft preparing to launch. On the way to being gone.


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## msxyz (Jul 30, 2021)

XBe02Drvr said:


> They were hung on aircraft preparing to launch. On the way to being gone.


A chain of unfortunate events. A faulty rocket. Some aircraft waiting to be launched and fully prepped for a bombing run. Old bombs with more sensitive explosive. Couldn't happen at a worse time.

An old saying goes: "lady luck is blind but misfortune can see all to well"


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## Wurger (Jul 30, 2021)




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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 30, 2021)

msxyz said:


> I looked through my archived links but I only found this so far:
> 
> 
> U.S.S. Forrestal Fire 1967 | A-4 Skyhawk Association
> ...


I think it would be impossible to say if the same results would have occurred if Mk 83s were available. BTW, the ships captain was cleared of any wrongdoing from what I understand. The worse part of this wasn't from the initial explosions but the way the emergency was dealt with as the entire DC crew was killed or wounded and those left to put out the fires weren't properly trained.


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## Airframes (Jul 30, 2021)




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## ARTESH (Jul 30, 2021)

May their souls rest in eternal peace.

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## ARTESH (Jul 30, 2021)

Can someone please tell me about Rank Abbreviations and The following 1-letter codes in Unit column (A, N, E and G).


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## Dash119 (Jul 30, 2021)




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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 30, 2021)

ARTESH said:


> Can someone please tell me about Rank Abbreviations and The following 1-letter codes in Unit column (A, N, E and G).


Unit (VA, VF, V or S) or individual rate codes (AN, AD2, AE3)?

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## Gnomey (Jul 30, 2021)




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## ARTESH (Jul 30, 2021)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Unit (VA, VF, V or S) or individual rate codes (AN, AD2, AE3)?


Yes, I meant rate codes. Thank you.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 30, 2021)

ARTESH said:


> Yes, I meant rate codes. Thank you.



​*General Ratings.
Ratings may have evolved through several names to reflect changes in required skill sets. Many of these ratings no longer exist. Some ratings have been discontinued only to be restored. Logos indicate an active rating.*​​*Service Ratings. * *
Service ratings are subspecialties under general ratings. Service ratings generally merge into a single rating at the E-6 to E-9 level. Many of the service ratings listed below no longer exist.*​





ABM Aviation Boatswain's Mate (1944-1948)
(AB Rate subdivided 1948 to service ratings )
ABCM Master Chief Aviation Boatswain's Mate (E-9 only)ABH Aviation Boatswain's Mate Aircraft Handling
ABF Aviation Boatswain's Mate Fuels
ABE Aviation Boatswain's Mate Launch & Recovery Equipment
ABU Aviation Boatswain's Mate Utility




AC Air Controlman (1948-1977)
AC Air Traffic Controller (1977- )ACT Aircontrolman Tower
ACW Aircontrolman Early WarningACM Aviation Carpenter's Mate (1921-1940) (to AM)




AD Aviation Machinist's Mate (1948- )ADE Aviation Machinist's Mate Engine Mechanic
ADF Aviation Machinist's Mate Flight Engineer
ADG Aviation Machinist's Mate Carburetor Mechanic
ADJ Aviation Machinist's Mate Jet Engine Mechanic
ADR Aviation Machinist's Mate Reciprocating Engine Mechanic
ADP Aviation Machinist's Mate Propeller Mechanic




AEM Aviation Electrician's Mate (1942-1948)
AE Aviation Electrician's Mate (1948- )AF Photographer's Mate (1948-1950) (to PH)AFCM Master Chief Aircraft Maintenanceman (E-9 only) (1963- )




Aerog Aerographer (1923-1942)
AerM Aerographer's Mate (1942-1948)
AG Aerographer's Mate (1948- )AK Aviation Storekeeper (1948-2003) (to SK)AL Aviation Electronicsman (1948-1959) (to AT)




AM Aviation Metalsmith (1921-1948)
(AM Rate subdivided 1948 to service ratings >)
AM Aviation Structural Mechanic (E-8 only)AMH Aviation Structural Mechanic Hydraulic Mechanic (1948-2001)(to AM)
AME Aviation Structural Mechanic Safety Equipment
AMS Aviation Structural Mechanic Structures (1948-2001)(to AM)MMA Machinist's Mate (Aviation) (1917-1921)
AMM Aviation Machinist's Mate (1921-1948) (to AD)AMMC Aviation Machinist's Mate Carburetor Mechanic
AMMF Aviation Machinist's Mate Flight Engineer
AMMH Aviation Machinist's Mate Hydraulic Mechanic
AMMI Aviation Machinist's Mate Instrument Mechanic
AMMP Aviation Machinist's Mate Propeller Mechanic
AMMT Aviation Machinist's Mate Gas Turbine Mechanic




AOM Aviation Ordnanceman (1921-1948)
AO Aviation Ordnanceman (1948- )AOMB Aviation Bombsight Mechanic (1943-1944)
AOMB Aviation Bombsight and Fire Control Mechanic (1944- )
AOMT Aviation Ordnanceman Turrets
AOF Aviation Ordnanceman Fire Control
AOT Aviation Ordnanceman Turrets
AOU Aviation Ordnanceman UtilityAQ Aviation Fire Control Technician (1954-1991) (to AT)AQB Aviation Fire Control Technician Bomb Director
AQF Aviation Fire Control Technician Fire ControlAP Aviation Pilot (1924-1933) (1942-1948)
 (Naval Aviation Pilot (NAP) & AP History)CAP Chief Aviation Pilot (1924-1933)
AP First Class Aviation Pilot (1927-1933)
APA Aviation Pilot AirshipAR Quartermaster (Aviation) (1917-1921)
AR Aviation Rigger (1921-1927)
AR Airship Rigger (1943-1948) (to AM)ARM Aviation Radioman (1942-1948) (to AL)




AS Aviation Support Equipment Technician (1966- )ASE Aviation Support Equipment Technician Electrical
ASH Aviation Support Equipment Technician Hydraulics and Structure
ASM Aviation Support Equipment Technician Mechanical




ART Aviation Radio Technician (1942-1945)
AETM Aviation Electronic Technician's Mate (1945-1948)
AT Aviation Electronics Technician (1948- )ATA Aviation Electronics Technician Aircraft Equipment
ATG Aviation Electronics Technician Ground Equipment
ATN Aviation Electronics Technician Radio & Radio Navigation Equipment
ATO Aviation Electronics Technician Ordnance
ATR Aviation Electronics Technician Radar and Radar Navigation Equipment
ATW Aviation Electronics Technician Airborne CIC EquipmentAVCM Master Chief Avionics Technician (E-9 only)




AW Aviation Antisubmarine Warfare Operator (1968-1993)
AW Aviation Warfare Systems Operator (1993 -2008)
AW Master Chief Naval Aircrewman (2008- ) (E-9 only)AWF Naval Aircrewman Mechanical
AWO Naval Aircrewman Operator
AWS Naval Aircrewman Helicopter
AWR Naval Aircrewman Tactical Helicopter
AWV Naval Aircrewman Avionics

These are all the Aviating Ratings - there are more for surface personnel

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## XBe02Drvr (Jul 30, 2021)

FLYBOYJ said:


> These are all the Aviating Ratings - there are more for surface personnel


Hey Joe, you left out TraDevMan, my rate. Doesn't start with "A", but an aviation rate just the same. Those few TDs who were "stolen" for non-aviation activities (sub and surface warfare simulators, the escape tank at New London, surface gunnery trainers,etc) had to go to yet another school after they graduated from TD "A" at NATTC Memphis.
I reported to my permanent duty station less than a month shy of a full year from my arrival at boot camp, and I fast-tracked through Avionics "A" shaving ten weeks off the syllabus. The average TD who did the full 44 weeks of avionics "A", the nine weeks of TD "A", and then had the misfortune to draw a black shoe duty station, with its additional 9 weeks of "finishing school", would arrive PDS with only 2 1/2 years left in their enlistment, and intense pressure to re-up. No wonder the Nav decided to abolish the rate, since tech reps were already doing most of the heavy lifting in simulator maintenance.

Other aviation rates not beginning with "A":

PR (Aviation Survival Equipmentman - formerly Parachute Rigger)

PI (Photo Interpreter)

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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 30, 2021)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Hey Joe, you left out TraDevMan, my rate. Doesn't start with "A", but an aviation rate just the same. Those few TDs who were "stolen" for non-aviation activities (sub and surface warfare simulators, the escape tank at New London, surface gunnery trainers,etc) had to go to yet another school after they graduated from TD "A" at NATTC Memphis.
> 
> Other aviation rates not beginning with "A":
> 
> ...


100% correct Wes, just copied as much as I can from a Bluejackets page.

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## davparlr (Aug 25, 2021)

Such sadness. And now they've turned Afghanistan over to the very people who condoned the killing thousands of innocent victims in New York. What betrayal.

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## ARTESH (Aug 25, 2021)

davparlr said:


> Such sadness. And now they've turned Afghanistan over to the very people who condoned the killing thousands of innocent victims in New York. What betrayal.


Strongly agree with you! Specially that they now control borders on eastern provinces. I was there as Part of Iran's Army Reserve Troops Command to reinforce the borders. The platoon (belonged to IRGC Border Guards Command) that my platoon replaced with them, was almost destroyed!


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## XBe02Drvr (Aug 25, 2021)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Hey Joe, you left out TraDevMan, my rate. Doesn't start with "A", but an aviation rate just the same. Those few TDs who were "stolen" for non-aviation activities (sub and surface warfare simulators, the escape tank at New London, surface gunnery trainers,etc) had to go to yet another school after they graduated from TD "A" at NATTC Memphis.
> I reported to my permanent duty station less than a month shy of a full year from my arrival at boot camp, and I fast-tracked through Avionics "A" shaving ten weeks off the syllabus. The average TD who did the full 44 weeks of avionics and then had the misfortune to draw a black shoe duty station, with its additional 9 weeks of "finishing school", would arrive PDS with only 2 1/2 years left in their enlistment, and intense pressure to re-up. No wonder the Nav decided to abolish the rate.
> 
> Other aviation rates not beginning with "A":
> ...

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## ARTESH (Aug 25, 2021)

X
 XBe02Drvr
:

Is this your rating?



> Google Image Result for https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/95/c7/9f95c70d079ff92dcc55aa8b9fdf28dd.jpg


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## XBe02Drvr (Aug 26, 2021)

ARTESH said:


> X
> XBe02Drvr
> :
> 
> Is this your rating?


That's it. When all our gear was working right, we were called "Toy Doctors"; when it wasn't, we were "Turd Dunkers". Old tired equipment gave us plenty of practice at troubleshooting, but was interesting work nonetheless.

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## Capt. Vick (Aug 26, 2021)

davparlr said:


> Such sadness. And now they've turned Afghanistan over to the very people who condoned the killing thousands of innocent victims in New York. What betrayal.


No doubt. But I believe it would have ended that same any year we chose to pull the plug. We built them a military that cost more than their GNP a year to maintain and they were still losing ground. The situation was untenable, to say nothing of their desire to fight. Any democracy movement has to be homegrown, not installed at the point of a gun. My heart bleeds for all the fathers, mothers, wives, husband's, sons and daughters whose loved ones lives where lost in this just cause, turned ruinous nation building. Turns out someone was lying to us as to the real story. What a waste of lives and treasure. Will we ever learn?

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## ARTESH (Aug 26, 2021)

Capt. Vick said:


> 1- We built them a military that cost more than their GNP a year to maintain and they were still losing ground. The situation was untenable, to say nothing of their desire to fight.





Capt. Vick said:


> 2- Any democracy movement has to be homegrown, not installed at the point of a gun.





Capt. Vick said:


> 3- My heart bleeds for all the fathers, mothers, wives, husband's, sons and daughters whose loved ones lives where lost in this just cause, turned ruinous nation building. Turns out someone was lying to us as to the real story. What a waste of lives and treasure.





Capt. Vick said:


> 4- Will we ever learn?


1- There are many reasons for this! To understand it, You might educate yourself on the events happened 43 years ago, from start to end, In Iran and possibly something that happened before it.

2- Agreed! but having "Guns" is sometimes more profitable.

3- Same here.

4- Who is this "WE" exactly? If you are talking about normal people, like yourself or me, or anyone else here, The answer is YES. But if you're pointing to top of pyramid, The answer is a huge "NO".

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## davparlr (Aug 26, 2021)

In a way you are correct and I blame Bush for this. We should have gone into Afghanistan, cleaned out the Al-Qaeda, bloodied the nose of the Taliban because they allowed them in, and left, leaving a note on their door "We're watching. If we see these guys back we will come avisiting again."

You should NEVER withdraw from a position of weakness. Adequate holding forces should be maintained until critical forces/people have been extracted (see Dunkirk). Biden pulled out the holding force, surrendering the advantage they had, before extraction of valuable people and resources, eg, weapons. I am afraid this bodes badly for future peace and safety in the region and here at home.

I am not sure there was a reason to withdraw at this time. The region seemed stable (only one soldier was killed in the last year?). Our forces were the backbone of the Afghan military, when we pulled that out, it collapsed. As long as we were there, no threat from Al-Qaeda, ISIS, no threat of a new caliphate forming, no threat from China moving in, no threat Russia moving in (I'm not sure they would want to or be welcome). In the future, it could be messy if we have to go back, especially if they find friends to provide modern air defenses.

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## ARTESH (Aug 26, 2021)

davparlr said:


> As long as we were there, no threat from Al-Qaeda, ISIS, no threat of a new caliphate forming, no threat from China moving in, no threat Russia moving in (I'm not sure they would want to or be welcome). In the future, it could be messy if we have to go back, especially if they find friends to provide modern air defenses.


There were, are and will be threads! You were not informed of existing, and by then, arising threads! Be prepared for some bloodshed in US Soil and any other nation that sent troops to Afghanistan. Maybe some time around New Year Holidays.

Mark my Words.

For them, You are not only an outsider, but also "Infidels", that alone, is enough strong to be a "Thread".

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## ARTESH (Aug 26, 2021)

The man who plants "Wind", Harvests "Typhoon" .

Just saying.

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## Capt. Vick (Aug 26, 2021)

ARTESH said:


> 1- There are many reasons for this! To understand it, You might educate yourself on the events happened 43 years ago, from start to end, In Iran and possibly something that happened before it.
> 
> 2- Agreed! but having "Guns" is sometimes more profitable.
> 
> ...



1) I was merely commenting on the fact that the military that WE (the US and others) set up for the "friendly" Afgan government was simply unsustainable in our absence. As it turned out it was all mute, as it was barely used.

2) Not sure what you mean exactly, but I will take this as a statement of agreement.

3) ditto

4) I was thinking of the US as an entity. Like "We" didn't remember the lessons of the past and thought "this time will be different". Hubris. It would have been nice to go in and out quickly and not squander life and good will invading Irag and staying in both.

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## FLYBOYJ -- No Politics! (Aug 26, 2021)

Folks let’s stop with the politics please.

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## ARTESH (Aug 26, 2021)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Folks let’s stop with the politics please.


Not politics. Just saying that History repeats itself. What happened 43 years ago, in Iran, is now happening in Afghanistan. A close look to the events, will reveal many similarities.

about that warning, just remember that U.S. embassy was besieged by rebels, after that, were series of bombings, kidnappings, Assassinations, you name it!, And I'm pretty sure that anyone here, knows the meaning of besieging an embassy.


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