# Military uses for civilian planes.



## pbehn (Oct 14, 2017)

I was watching a documentary or Concorde and had a thought well two actually.

1 Was any military use for a Concorde ever considered.

2 Apart from cargo and troop transport which other civilian aircraft were developed for military use?

I came up with the Sunderland, DC3 gunship and Cessna 01 and 02


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 14, 2017)

Lockheed Electra = P-3 Orion
Dehavilland Comet = BAE Nimrod
Beech Kingair = KA-350
Bombardier Global Express Jet = E-11A

[edit]

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## vikingBerserker (Oct 14, 2017)

I believe the He 111 & Ju 90 started life as civilian planes


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 14, 2017)

The Concorde was not suited for any military roles at all. 

1. Narrow bodied.
2. Could not carry a large enough payload.
3. To expensive, burned too much fuel.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 14, 2017)

michaelmaltby said:


> Lockheed Electra = P-3 Orion
> Dehavilland Comet = BAE Nimrod
> Beech Kingair = KA-350
> Bombardier Regional Jet = KA-350



The Beech King air is a KA 350. A KA 350 is the civilian nomenclature for a Model B300 Super King Air.

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## fubar57 (Oct 14, 2017)

DHC-6 Twin Otter - RCAF CC-138 Twin Otter plus other air forces





​
Bombardier Challenger 600 - RCAF CC-144 Challenger plus other air forces






​Airbus A310-300s - RCAF CC-150 Polaris 






​I know they aren't fighters or bombers but hey....they're Canucky

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## Shortround6 (Oct 14, 2017)

vikingBerserker said:


> I believe the He 111 & Ju 90 started life as civilian planes



The JU 90 did. 




The He 111 didn't, it was a bomber from the get-go. 
The commercial versions were an attempt to fool other countries into believing that some of the German aircraft were for peaceful purposes. 
The He 111 Commercial version was announced to the world over 18 months after the DC-2 went into service and within a 1-2 months of the DC-3. 

Photo of He 111 commercial with Ju 52s




Smaller volume for passengers/cargo is apparent.


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## Blutto (Oct 14, 2017)

Add to that list:

VC-10/15
L1011
A330
B737

Plus a few more that don't come immediately to mind.


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## parsifal (Oct 15, 2017)

GAF nomad, devised as a light military transport, also used from new by the RFDS and by a number of local aerial survey companies


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## swampyankee (Oct 15, 2017)

A lot of civilian aircraft are picked up for use as liaison aircraft, light transports and utility aircraft.


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## nuuumannn (Oct 15, 2017)

Air Koryo - North Korea's airline has a number of military aircraft operating within its fleet. Although nominally governed over by the DPRK's civil aviation branch, the airline is state owned and its aircraft have in the past been painted in military liveries and used for military purposes. The UN even denounced these activities as a violation of sanctions against the reclusive nation.

Article listing the airline's activities here: Air Koryo plane that made emergency landing was one of its newer aircraft

The distinction between military and civil use of airliners was blurred under Aeroflot during the Soviet Union. I remmber seeing Antonov An-12s with tail guns in Aeroflot colours in books I used to have. CAAC, the Chinese communist airline was much the same and also operated military aircraft. So, would these be considered military aircraft in civilian guise or civlian aircraft, or both?

CAAC Antonov An-12:

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## nuuumannn (Oct 15, 2017)

Another one closer to home not mentioned yet; RNZAF's two B757s.










JASDF KC-767.

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## nuuumannn (Oct 15, 2017)

Surprised no one's mentioned Air America yet.


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## gumbyk (Oct 16, 2017)

nuuumannn said:


> Air Koryo - North Korea's airline has a number of military aircraft operating within its fleet. Although nominally governed over by the DPRK's civil aviation branch, the airline is state owned and its aircraft have in the past been painted in military liveries and used for military purposes. The UN even denounced these activities as a violation of sanctions against the reclusive nation.
> 
> Article listing the airline's activities here: Air Koryo plane that made emergency landing was one of its newer aircraft
> 
> ...



So, could we add the PAC-75L as well now?

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## Airframes (Oct 16, 2017)

Britten Norman Islander has been used as a patrol and fishery protection aircraft, armed with 7.62 mm L7 GPMGs.
The little Bolkow Junior was used as a ground attack aircraft in the war in Biafra.

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## fubar57 (Oct 16, 2017)

Flew in a BN into the last logging camp I work in. The company had two. I don't know why but there was a book/magazine(?) in camp that had the costs of light aircraft for the current year ('83) that said a BN was worth $450-500K. Our owner bought them for around $45K each from S. America. The brake shoes appeared to be dangling on the right side. The faller's aircraft, a Cessna 206 cab used to occasionally fill with a small amount of smoke. It was never fixed in the 3 years I worked there. The owners nick-name was Junk John.


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## Airframes (Oct 17, 2017)

I used to skydive from an Islander. One day, as it was landing, the starboard wheel assembly hit a sheep on the runway, which 'slewed' the wheel off to an angle. Robin, the pilot,completed a safe landing and taxied back, the aircraft was jacked up and the wheel re-aligned, and then took off for another 'lift' !
The sheep went on the 'barbie' that night ..............

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## Airframes (Oct 17, 2017)

Pic of one of the Bolkow Junior based 'Minicon' aircraft used in Biafra.

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## Shortround6 (Oct 18, 2017)

Going back to 1938




Probably one of the more successful conversions of a civil aircraft to military use.

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## swampyankee (Oct 18, 2017)

It's fairly common for maritime patrol aircraft to be based on civil aircraft: L-188 Electra -> P-3 Orion, Bristol Brittania -> Canadair CP-107 Argus, 737 -> P-8, MPA versions of the ATR-72, CN-235, Do-328, AEW versions of Saab 340, Gulfstream GIV or GV, 737, 707, 767, DC-10 and L-1011 tankers, .....

Commercial transport airframes are robust, long-lived, commodious, and common.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 18, 2017)

That is quite true. Maritime patrol/ASW aircraft, also don't have to perform much in the way of combat maneuvers nowadays. 

Few, if any subs carry AA guns and try to fight it out on the surface. 

Modern aircraft have longer range sensors and longer ranged weapons than WW II aircraft.


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## nuuumannn (Oct 18, 2017)

swampyankee said:


> MPA versions of the ATR-72



That's if it doesn't dissolve into a pile of dust on the tarmac after its first extended flight over water... 



swampyankee said:


> Commercial transport airframes are robust, long-lived, commodious, and common.



and on the whole, decidedly over powered, so they do make good long range, heavy haulers.

Can't really not mention the Queen of the Skies, the mighty B747, which was originally designed as a military heavy lifter to compete with the C-5 Galaxy. A bright spark decided to fill that cavernous fuse up with seats and voila! One of the most successful airliners in history - and still better than a Triple Seven!


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## swampyankee (Oct 19, 2017)

nuuumannn said:


> That's if it doesn't dissolve into a pile of dust on the tarmac after its first extended flight over water...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does the ATR-72 have particularly bad corrosion issues? Too much magnesium, perhaps (magnesium atoms are sociable, with an especial love of chloride and oxygen from salt water. I think they have to worry about Mg corrosion fro sea water in Iowa)


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## Elmas (Oct 19, 2017)

SM 79 started its career as a transport, and at the time it appeared it was so fast that the fighters of Regia Aeronautica, CR 32 in those times, could not intercept them: that, quite wrongly, was taken by top Brasses of Regia Aeronautica as a proof that “the bomber always will pass trough…” with disastrous results.

So, very proudly, crews of SM 79 adopted the emblem of the “Sorci verdi” (Green rats..) as “Sorci verdi in italian is an idiom to mean “incredible wonders”.






But when a G50 of the 51° Stormo intercepted a flight of SM 79 ( someone believe that the trigger happy G50 Pilot let go some bullets from his guns, fortunately at some distance…) the Pilots of the 51°Stormo said

“Green rats have found their cat, at last…”

And, until today adopted this as their emblem

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## nuuumannn (Oct 19, 2017)

swampyankee said:


> Does the ATR-72 have particularly bad corrosion issues?



Yep, it sure does, but it's not so much the alloy used, but flaws in the manufacturing process of the ali. Airlines like to trumpet that they have the youngest fleets in the world; with ATRs, that's because after a couple of years you need to throw them away and get new ones. ATR's are also not very sturdily built. They have their good points, but structural integrity is not one of them. Certain batches of A320s also suffer from corrosion issues for the same reason.


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 19, 2017)

Airframes said:


> Pic of one of the Bolkow Junior based 'Minicon' aircraft used in Biafra.
> 
> View attachment 469168



Some one needs to make a movie about their use. I posted info on this a long time ago. Carl von Rosen's sister was married to Herman Goering. He was killed in the 1970s trying to help the Ethiopians in a war against Somalia. 
















_*A number of MFI-9Bs had been constructed in hopes of a sale to the Swedish Air Force, but when the sale fell through, the aircraft became available at a low price. So in May 1969, von Rosen formed a squadron of five MiniCOINs to fight in the Nigerian Civil War (1967–1970) on the side of the Biafrans in support of their effort to create an independent state.

Von Rosen had the planes painted in camouflage colours and fitted with rockets from Matra, and proceeded with a band of friends to form a squadron called Biafra Babies to strike at the airfields from which the federal Nigerian Air Force launched their attacks against the civilian population in Biafra. On May 22, 1969, and over the next few days, Von Rosen and his five aircraft launched attacks against Nigerian airfields at Port Harcourt, Enugu, Benin and other small airports. The Nigerians were taken by surprise and a number of expensive jets, including a few MiG-17 fighters and three out of Nigeria’s six Ilyushin Il-28 bombers, were destroyed on the ground.

The pilots included Lynn Garrison among a group of other mercenaries. Lynn Garrison co-ordinated the attacks, personally destroying an Ilyushin Il-28 and a MiG-17.

The MiniCOINs saw extensive service during most of the war, including the delivery of food aid drops. Garrison introduced a supply-dropping procedure learned in northern Canada. A bag of grain was enclosed in a larger bag before dropping; when the load hit the ground, the inner bag would rupture, while the outer bag contained the contents. Many lives were saved through air drops using this simple concept.*_

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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 19, 2017)

King Air 200.................C-12
Beech 1900.................C-12J
Beech 18.........................SNB
Short SD-30......Short Sherpa
Boeing 737........................P-8
Swearigen Metro.............C-26
Schweitzer SGS 2-8........TG-2
Schweitzer SGS 2-10......TG-3
Piper J-3.............................L-4
Aeronca 7AC......................L-3
Folder F-27.....Golden Knights 
drop aircraft 
Cheers,
Wes

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## Elmas (Oct 19, 2017)




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## Elmas (Oct 19, 2017)




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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 19, 2017)

DC-4..................................C-54
DC-6................................C-118
Boeing 720.....................C-135
Boeing Stratocruiser........C-97
Cheers,
Wes


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## Token (Oct 20, 2017)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Boeing Stratocruiser........C-97



Isn't that the other way round? Wasn't the Stratocruiser developed from the military C-97 Stratofreighter, itself evolved from the B-29 / 50? So I think that would be a case of a civilian use of a military plane.

T!


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 20, 2017)

Token said:


> Isn't that the other way round? Wasn't the Stratocruiser developed from the military C-97 Stratofreighter, itself evolved from the B-29 / 50? So I think that would be a case of a civilian use of a military plane.
> 
> T!


Well the way it was told to me,
sitting by my Pappy's knee...
(or some other low joint.)...
Boeing wanted to take advantage of the predicted post-war boom in civil and airline flying, and the precedent had been set for landplane trans oceanic flying, and they had this magnificent B-29 airframe to work with, and Lockheed was out to dominate the market et voila! the Statocruiser was born.
Fast, luxurious, capacious, long ranged....and cursed with treacherous propellers!
Cheers,
Wes

PS: And in its KC version, a hairy machine to fuel a B-47 with. During the Cuban missile crisis, we would see them overhead on the "Oilburner" low level navigation route with a B-47 in tow, in a shallow dive, "four churning and two burning" at full throttle to stay above the bomber's heavyweight stall speed.


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## Token (Oct 20, 2017)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Well the way it was told to me,
> sitting by my Pappy's knee...
> (or some other low joint.)...
> Boeing wanted to take advantage of the predicted post-war boom in civil and airline flying, and the precedent had been set for landplane trans oceanic flying, and they had this magnificent B-29 airframe to work with, and Lockheed was out to dominate the market et voila! the Statocruiser was born.
> Fast, luxurious, capacious, long ranged....and cursed with treacherous propellers!



I always heard it was the other way around. They were developing a cargo aircraft for the military based on the B-29, the C-97, and they decided to leverage that military work to produce the Stratocruiser, hoping that after the war they would be in a position to bring a new, and cutting edge for the day, airliner to market.

And yeah, the props resulted in a couple of fatals for the Stratocruiser.

T!


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## swampyankee (Oct 20, 2017)

Until the 707, Boeing was kept afloat by military contracts. Douglas was the dominant player in airliners, with Lockheed probably second. 

If I remember, the C-135 is based on Boeing’s 367, which had a narrower fuselage than the 707 (C-137), and the 720 was based on the 707.


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## nuuumannn (Oct 20, 2017)

Short Empire passenger flying boats were used by New Zealand and Australia as maritime patrol aircraft, the Royal Australian Air Force inducting them into service, as well as the RAF.

here's a link to histories of Australian use of the Empire in wartime: ADF Serials - Empire

Lisunov Li-2: originally built under licence in the Soviet Union for Aeroflot but, like the original DC-3, was also used extensively by the military. These are Chinese ones, still Li-2s, they didn't build under licence.

Military variant:




DSC_6078 by Grant Newman, on Flickr

Civil variant:




DSC_6073 by Grant Newman, on Flickr


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 20, 2017)

Token said:


> I always heard it was the other way around. They were developing a cargo aircraft for the military based on the B-29, the C-97, and they decided to leverage that military work to produce the Stratocruiser, hoping that after the war they would be in a position to bring a new, and cutting edge for the day, airliner to market.
> 
> And yeah, the props resulted in a couple of fatals for the Stratocruiser.
> 
> T!


You're right. I looked it up and it turns out the legend I grew up with was false. But the part about electric props is true. Hydromatics fixed that problem.
Cheers,
Wes


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 21, 2017)

swampyankee said:


> If I remember, the C-135 is based on Boeing’s 367, which had a narrower fuselage than the 707 (C-137), and the 720 was based on the 707.


From what I've read it appears the C-135 and the 720 were parallel developments from the original Dash 80 with the smaller diameter and shorter fuselage of the Dash and significant structural differences from what developed into the 707. I believe the 720 was intended for the market the 727 eventually filled and the 737 does today, but was too pricey and too thirsty for airlines used to DC-6 economics. I remember as a teenager following with fascination the race between the HS Trident and the 727 to fill that niche. Does anybody remember laughter(oops I meant Trident)? Has anybody ever seen a Trident? There used to be one down in the "graveyard corner" at KMIA.
Cheers,
Wes

PS: As an aside, the 737-800 carries more payload farther, faster and with less fuel burn on two engines than a 727-200 did on three. Awesome machine!

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## soulezoo (Oct 23, 2017)

DC-10 = KC-10 tanker


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