# Damn Shame This .... Time to Get Out ..?



## michaelmaltby (Sep 16, 2012)

The Game's changing ...... throughout the Islamic World ..... Time to butt out ...?

6 Harrier jets destroyed, 2 damaged in Taliban assault on Camp Bastion - The Long War Journal

Proud Canadian


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## mikewint (Sep 16, 2012)

Michael, not really for me to say, my butt's not on the line but my feeling is that you deny the enemy thatwhich he most desires at all costs. If you flinch you provide the enemy with enouragement


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## Njaco (Sep 16, 2012)

just a friendly reminder.....


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## N4521U (Sep 17, 2012)

Ditto


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 17, 2012)

Butt out and "drop out" aren't the same thing. I'm not advocating defeatism .... I'm advocating realism. 

America hasn't dropped out, rather, it is very much at another pinacle in its development: Take a quick trip to Mars


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRCIzZHpFtY_

Proud Canadian


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## Matt308 (Sep 17, 2012)

As a geeky engineer, that was a phenomenal video. I can't wait to show it to my kids.


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## razor1uk (Sep 17, 2012)

T'is a great pity such things are happening more often, although gazing an eye of realism/pragmatism; is something truely like this with 'recent' previous anti-what-ever-religious events taken into account, not wholey unexpected in a bad case senario... it could be worse in a more widespread case - only a needs a few nutters on any side ramp it up past that line we all draw infront of our feet - if viewed form an alternate position of opinion.

As another geeky engineery type (as a time served, but only college qualified), I second the previous two posts.


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## mikewint (Sep 17, 2012)

The trip to Mars is indeed cool but how did we get from Taliban attacks to a Mars trip? Did I miss some intermediary chapters?


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 17, 2012)

Did I miss some intermediary chapters?

No - I don't think so. You said "... you deny the enemy that which he most desires _at all costs. _If you flinch you provide the enemy with encouragement"

To reply to that credo in any form is _political_ and - we know - _that_ is verboten. 

But, I would suggest that if you're engaged with a cunning, irrational foe who seeks *martyrdom*, it might be smart to deny that enemy what he most desires. Too often these "missions" suffer from fixation and creep. America has enough important stuff (eg Mars and the Universe) to keep her usefully occupied without playing the Taliban's game. There was a brief window after 9-11 when the momentum in Afghanistan was with the USA - that moment came and went - and the situation in the Middle East is now in complete turmoil -- US policy has failed to make the region more secure. This is not a failure of the USA nor is it a loss of capability -- but it _is_ an indication that perhaps the tried and true "... deny the enemy that which he most desires at all costs. If you flinch you provide the enemy with encouragement..." isn't going to work in this particular conflict. This eruption of militant Islam cannot be defeated on a battleground like Afghanistan. Sadly, the only battleground that the USA can defeat this kind of extremism is right at home in the USA. The fact there hasn't been another 9-11 speaks to the effectiveness of Homeland Security measures to some appreciable degree. But as for trying to democratize the world - it isn't going to work in the Middle East -- until these people come to their senses, avoid contact - withdraw from contact abroad -- butt out. And crush terrorism at home wherever and whenever. America does not need the Middle East or its oil. And, pleasing (placating) your sworn enemies does not convert them to friends

MM


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## mikewint (Sep 18, 2012)

Michael, I do see and agree with some of your points but I do not think that the US can ignore groups like the Taliban and focus on the stars, "where no man has gone before" I felt in Vietnam that programs like "hearts and minds" was the way to go and it was showing real promise, IMHO. Battles/wars are easy, nothing stands against the US armed forces for long. BUT after the battle, we're not real good at winning the peace. The army is not a good police force. The hearts and minds of the common people were with us but we provided them with no lasting security. Everyone knew that sooner or later the US was going to take its bat and ball and go home and the VC/NVA would still be there to exact vengence. America/democracy/republics did not spring into being in 1776 it grew from centuries of English Common Law. No such backround exists in the mid-east. SO:
First - security from the wolves then we see what can grow in the calm


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## Erich (Sep 18, 2012)

stay home and bleed them out.........monetarily.


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 19, 2012)

"... security from the wolves then we see what can grow in the calm.."

The problem isn't "the wolves" ... they're healthy, disciplined creatures and perform a useful role in the environment (sheep farmers will naturally disagree ). The problem is with the rabid dogs in our midst. There's no cure for rabies. It is highly contagious and it makes those afflicted irrational and fearless ....

Erich .... I agree.

MM


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## meatloaf109 (Sep 19, 2012)

Struggled with this one,.. O.k., here goes...
True believers will get you killed. Just that simple. I got no truck with folks whose belief system tells them to be nice, but that isn't what is being dealt with here. The Taliban has a 5th century attitude towards everything and access to 21st century weapons, a very bad combination. As long as they think their "god" will reward them with pleasures that they are denied here on earth as a reward for killing anyone that does not believe, well, we got problems. There is no middle ground with these people, it is all or nothing, and no amount of diplomacy will change that. They are commanded to kill, and kill they will. Maybe if the guys at the top would strap on the bombs and go themselves it might eventually stop, but they exhort the young instead. The indoctrination starts from birth and never lets up. "allah's" will dictates, and they will obey.
Sad, really. 
Rabies is a good analogy, unfortunately.


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 19, 2012)

"... There is no middle ground with these people, it is all or nothing, and no amount of diplomacy will change that. "

This an an enemy, a threat, like none other that western society has faced in over 300 years. The last time Islam was broadly expansionist, it was checked, IIRC, at the gates of Vienna: Battle of Vienna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

What we are facing is test of strength and dominance between Shia and Sunni schools of Islamic faith -- with Western Civilization and values being used by both sides as the proving ground or arena in which to demonstrate their superiority - to believers within Islam.

As Camp Hood and other incidents have demonstrated, the enemy can be in our midst day in and day out - not arousing suspicion until it is too late. Communism in the early stages of the Cold War was a relatively defensible enemy compared to a contest with the world's largest religious "faith".

Meatloaf you are right - modern weapons and communications in the hands of 5th Century "believers" is very, very frightening. In Canada, in the UK, in France and the USA, politicians and academics of all stripes are urging accommodation and tolerance. That will not work. Pleasing your sworn enemies only puts Western societies at risk.

Vienna was a "formal" and decisive military encounter - so was Tours almost 800 years before it. Today - the enemy is cloaked amongst the people. 

MM


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## mikewint (Sep 19, 2012)

The idea that martyrs receive a reward in heaven, the "72 virgins", is totally not true. It comes not from the Koran but from the Hadith a collection "Features of Heaven" by Imam at-Tirmidhi from Daraj Ibn Abi Hatim, that Abu al-Haytham narrated from Abu Sa'id al-Khudhri, who heard Muhammad saying, 'The smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are eighty thousand servants and seventy-two houri. Imam at-Tirmidhi is considered to be a very minor authority. The term HOURI can refer to virgins, or wives, or even white rasins. 
More authentic Hadiths state: 
Bukhari Volume 2, Book 23, Number 445: Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, “A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him.”
Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 73: Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak: ”And if somebody commits suicide with anything in this world, he will be tortured with that very thing on the Day of Resurrection.
From the Qur’an itself: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily God hath been to you Most Merciful! If any do that in rancour and injustice,- soon shall We cast them into the Fire: And easy it is for God. Qur’an 4:29 – 4:30
Fundamentalist Imams take and pick the parts they like, much as Christians who pick out phrases like "Eye for an eye" or one of my favs "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"


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## Matt308 (Sep 19, 2012)




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## meatloaf109 (Sep 19, 2012)

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", I always wondered if that could be applied to ex-wives.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 19, 2012)

To deploy a coventional force with conventional tactics (no matter the firepower of that force) against a non conventional enemy is always dangerous and complicated. If it was for me I would conduct the campaign in Afghanistan with key point massive bombing and selective hits (selective assasinations if you like). No more patrolling an area where you can loss soldiers en every corner and anyone with a beard could shoot them up badly.


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## Matt308 (Sep 20, 2012)

...and thus to answer the thread's title, get out yesterday and continue to bomb the sh!t out of them.


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## mikewint (Sep 20, 2012)

air attacks will never replace "boots on the ground" especially in a guerilla war. The Phoenix program in Vietnam had some positive results but the danger exists that it can get co-opted into vengence/anti-rival squads. The religeous issues in the mid-east make things hundreds of times worse. Security is still primary but will never be 100%. Again because, IMHO, many people in authority keep a foot in both camps as insurance against the day the US decides it does not want to play any more and walks away. Every POW camp we ever hit had been warned, sometimes days in advance, that we were coming. 
Don't have an answer but I do know that weakness will be exploited. Getting on the tiger's back is easy compared to trying to stay on


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## Matt308 (Sep 20, 2012)

Do unto others as they do unto you. Death from above via UCAVs. It pisses them off and brings them out of the nest for easier recon.

For the same reason I say keep "insulting" Mohammad [whatever today's definition of a slight that might be such as a cartoon, physical depiction or other such nonsense]. They tend to kill more of each other than us. 4th century morons, they apparently missed the Age of Enlightenment and any of its potential. This is a religious war and nobody wants to say it. Let's get it on now and quit beating around the bush.

I should close this thread now, for I have the right to remain silent but do not have the ability. Mods?


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## mikewint (Sep 20, 2012)

Matt, I hope you don't. I don't think anyone has gotten out of hand or been insulting. Perhaps if we take a step back. In a nutshell this is what we are dealing with:
In the year 610 CE, the Prophet Mohammed received his first revelation from the Archangel Gabriel (or Jibrael in Arabic) while meditating in a cave during the month of Ramadan. By 622 CE, Islam as a cohesive religion was formed, with the words of God or Allah as given to Mohammed documented in a text known as the Quran. Like the Bible the majority of the scripture or Sura contained in the Quran is an amalgamation of tenets and beliefs many hundreds of years older than Islam as well as compilations of many men over the proceeding few hundred years. Islam remained as a single belief for 661 years.
The Sects:
The Sunni
Sunni Muslims are by far the majority. Approximately 90% of all Muslims in the world are Sunni. These are the mainstream, traditional Muslims who believe in a strict determinism. The defining belief of Sunni Muslims is that the acceptable successors to Mohammed by the subsequent leaders of Islam or "caliphate" could and should be chosen from anyone suitable that was a member of Mohamed’s tribe, but not necessarily an heir or relative of Mohamed.
The Shia
The Shiite’s central belief is that after the assassinations of the fourth Caliph in 661 AD, the next successor to Mohamed should have been Ali, his brother-in-law. They split with the Sunni over the issue of succession shortly thereafter. According to Shiite doctrine, their spiritual and political leader is the Imam, who is said to be a direct blood descendant of Ali. The Shia and Sunni differ on matters of Quranic doctrine and the Shia even have their own cannon of the Hadith (the description of Mohamed’s words and deeds). Another primary difference is the belief in a justice system by the Shia that is inherited from the Mu’tazilits or “rationalists”.
In the simplest terms possible the rift is meritocracy vs. nepotism…
Would that that were all…
The Sufi
Sufism officially developed in the 10th century AD as a type of mystical interpretation of Islam. The basic tenet was of Pantheism or a belief that God and the universe are one. Mainstream Muslims disagree with this idea and instead believe in God (Allah) as a separate being who created the universe.
Sufi’s believe they may attain an inner, mystical knowledge of God through mediation, deprivation, fasting and prayer. In addition, the Sufi believe that the Quran could be interpreted in many ways which gave license to seek hidden, mystical meanings within its pages.
Sufi’s are the rebels of Islam…the hippies or the “new agers” to use western terms. Most Sufi’s are in Pakistan
Wahhabism
Two hundred years after the rise of Sufism and four hundred years after Charles Martel stopped the Islamic Jihad into Europe at the Battle of Tours, Islam was suffering from another crisis of stagnation and devolution. In the 12th century CE, Muslims had begun to revert to idol and tomb worship and the austere monotheism of the previous centuries had seriously degraded. From this environment a peaceful revisionist movement known as Wahhabism took root. 
The movement was named for Sheikh Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, a charismatic individual from the area around modern day Riyadh who, by the age of 10, had memorized the Quran and was leading prayers. Sheikh al-Wahhab had written many books on the subject of reformation based on the Quran by the time Wahhabism had become a full blown movement.
Again in western terms Wahhabism is somewhat akin to the Lutheran movement that took place in Christianity, whereby the reformers attempted to get the religion back to what it was originally meant to be.
Conclusion
There are a variety of sub-sects within each sect and adherents to different philosophies within those sub-sects. Much of it, in fact the majority, has common tenets such as the Five Pillars of Islam (profession of faith, prayers, alms for the poor, the Hajj or pilgrimage to Mecca and the observance of Ramadan). The differences, however minor they may appear to our modern minds, are the ancient wedge issues that have prevented unity in the Middle East for many centuries now.
It is naïve to think that these “minor” differences can be overcome by intervention from any one person or group from the West. 
IMHO, Islam is at a period in its history that Christianity was in around the time just before the Renaissance. Time does not move at the same pace for all peoples of the world, as hard as that is to comprehend.


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## meatloaf109 (Sep 21, 2012)

Matt, I think you are correct in not "appeaseing" the offended. It makes me sad that some would censor opinion (and cartoons) in the misguided hope that the extremests will be placated. History should show the folly of such tactics. My own experence with the mentaly unbalanced, (one brother and an uncle), is that a firm stance is the best.
I am not suggesting that all adherents of Islam are mentaly sick, but there are probably a few at the top, and these, naturally, are the ones that must be dealt with.
As a friend of mine is fond of saying, "The Truth isn't always pretty, but it is the Truth!"


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## Njaco (Sep 21, 2012)

Keep it rolling. Its not too bad so far.


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 21, 2012)

Islam was spread by the _sword._ The expansion from the emergence of the prophet to the reach of the converted within his lifetime is unbelievable - akin to Alexander the Great. And upon his death, Islam immediately went into schism mode (Shia-Sunni). There is no tolerance of any kind in Islam. People marvel at the glorious days of the Caliphate in Spain - Jews, Moslems, Christians all drinking tea together and writing poetry ... . Tolerance in Islam is achieved through a state of Dhimmitude - non believers are allowed to "function" in Islamic society as long as they know their place (Dhimmi) and pay their "special" taxes and levies.

Now - not to be controversial but simply for historical perspective - compare the trajectory of the Islamic religion to the trajectory of Christianity. Christ died before the faith had really taken "hold". The Faith was outlawed by the Roman Empire for _313 years_ until adapted by Emperor Constantine and made the official religion of the Empire.

In the centuries that followed, Roman Christianity has many many schisms, splits, scandals etc. etc. The 100 Years War in Europe - a ghastly affair by any standards - was a Christian religious war ( a war which BTW planted the seeds of hatred in protestant Germany for the interference in Germanic matters of faith by a very Catholic France) ...we know where that led ...... 

So Christianity's record is hardly pure ..... BUT ..... it has been _evolving _since its earliest days as an underground movement throughout the Empire.

Islam is _frozen_ .... there is this huge dichotomy between someone having an advanced engineering degree (for example) from western universities and yet being spiritually comfortable blowing up innocent civillians in an airplane or on a train or an embassy. That kind of mental-moral compartmentalization suggests an inability to cope with the modern world which is complex, chock full of irrational ironies, contrasts, outrages, insults, indecencies and cartoons. _ Engineering_ doesn't necessarily equip one to see the _whole_ picture (morally, culturally, whatever) ..... to cope with reality as it is, not what some might like it to be.

But this very simplification of life - along with strict rules on how to live that life - was one of the contributing factors to Islam's phenomenal trajectory .... just as Christianity's "joyous, cheerful meekness" allowed it to thrive underground.

Modern weapons in 5th century hands is a dangerous combination. Time to pray.

MM

"Pray" for more of this:

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/a...er-giving-her-a-warning-she-was-badly-covered


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 22, 2012)

Winning Hearts and Minds _isn't _an effective strategy _anywhere_ in the Islamic World:

Raw footage: Protests in Islamabad - CBS News Video

[Skip the Commercial at the top]

"I love the smell of whiz-bangs in the morning"

MM


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 22, 2012)

michaelmaltby said:


> Winning Hearts and Minds _isn't _an effective strategy _anywhere_ in the Islamic World:
> 
> Raw footage: Protests in Islamabad - CBS News Video
> 
> ...



The most effective war against this type of borderless extremist is the cultural war. The only strategy that works is the assimilation into our culture of the young people. I am pretty sure we as argentines have a lot of flaws but problems with muslims (or any other religion for that matter) is not one of them. In my city (wich is not the biggest one around here) there are 2 mosques and 3 sinagogues between hundreds of churches and everyone is doing his business without annoying the other if you know what I mean. There actually a lot of arabs here who are christians.




> air attacks will never replace "boots on the ground" especially in a guerilla war. The Phoenix program in Vietnam had some positive results but the danger exists that it can get co-opted into vengence/anti-rival squads.



I fully agree, but I dont think there is any advantage for the safety of US to gain 100 square kilometers less or more in a barren, hellish land as Afghanistan. Probably the politicians would say the objetive is to protect that of the other ally, but allies in those place are just traitors with an human mask.


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## Matt308 (Sep 23, 2012)

I frankly love this mentality of our enemies. You draw a cartoon and the enemy kills each other. How wildly insane is that.  The pen truly is mightier than the sword.


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## Erich (Sep 23, 2012)

the pen Matt and the distribution of certain funds......after hearing the so-=called dictator of Egypt telling Obama to kiss my ass isn't high time to reduce funds to this wanna be and just leave it alone at home, many downcast Americans could use a little money upper right about now.............

quite being the worlds stupid Police force


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 23, 2012)

"... quite being the worlds stupid Police force".

Agree 100% ... absolutely thankless job. For what ....?

MM


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## Matt308 (Sep 23, 2012)

yep But stabilization of the world is priceless right. If not the "hated US and her colonialism" then well, whom? Retreat into isolationism and trust in the rest of the world by population percentage? Indonesia? China? India? Pakistan?

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Look at the US and her wars and conquered/losses. Historically we must be the most benevolent winners/losers on this planet by allowing foes to continue to foster their post-war culture, economics and state assets.


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 24, 2012)

"... Historically we must be the most benevolent winners/losers on this planet by allowing foes to continue to foster their post-war culture, economics and state assets."

This is of course very true, Matt, ... the Marshall Plan comes to mind immediately ... so does the Peter Sellers film "The Mouse That Roared" ... 


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or9C-gt4TpA_

But he bottom line is that you don't makes true friends or allies by pleasing or appeasing your enemies, and, binding agreements rarely work unless the signatories share _som_e basic value structures.

Putting that into some kind of "policy" means that one is a realist. One recognizes that the world is neither fair nor benign. And so one tends to ones own house .. always doing the best possible with what one has and with the cards one is dealt -- think Finland (lemonade from lemons). But at the same time, one resists the pressure (political, religious, sentimental, whatever) to go into other parts of the world, other cultures and civilizations and "fix" things, put things "right", show others the "light". 

I am not talking isolationism. I am not talking defeatism. I am talking confidence (Faith) in one's values at home, education, prosperity, and commerce. If you make something that we can use, we will buy it under reasonable conditions. If we make something you like, we will sell it, under reasonable conditions.

Finland and Japan are are 2 20th century success stories. And Germany today is succeeding with economics in what it failed to do (twice) with war.

Historically, Sweden is one of the few nations that had empire, lost it, and got over it gracefully ...  But even Sweden has got to re-think itself in the face of Islamic colonization and extremism -- as recent events indicate.

Einstein was correct -- repeating the same flawed or naive sequence over and over again expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity. 

Proud Canadian

MM


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## Erich (Sep 24, 2012)

I think we are all bending and tearing down chunks of the central thought here but we still need to try and understand the "eastern" mind-set which we cannot it appears we still want to control or allow for a better term these mideastern peoples a western democracy and it has never worked except for Israel..........


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 24, 2012)

"... these mideastern peoples..." ...?

Hasan hospitalized - San Antonio Express-News

MM


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## Erich (Sep 24, 2012)

let the purging begin ~


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 24, 2012)

Connect the dots .... an interesting read:

A new Cold War

MM


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## meatloaf109 (Sep 24, 2012)

I can certainly see a possible connection, although some of it smacks of the "those darn nazi's" scenario favored by hack novel writers.
I am certain that the KGB was responsible for some of the supplies and tactics, but never forget that they (Islamists) hate the jews for being jews and us for supporting Israel.
Spontaneous demonstrations are seldom spontaneous, granted.
As far as Hasan is concerned, I hope that he survives long enough to be hanged.


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 24, 2012)

And the X-USSR has its own problems with domestic Islamists .... with good reason if one remembers how Stalin treated all religions and ethnic minorities. Andropov may have been trying for a two-fer ... redirection *to* the King of Capitalism *from* the King of Cruel.

MM


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## mikewint (Sep 25, 2012)

No matter how you look at it we have to learn to deal with both. The mid-east still sits on most of the world sweet crude and we cannot live without it


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 25, 2012)

"... No matter how you look at it we have to learn to deal with both. The mid-east still sits on most of the world sweet crude and _we cannot live without it_..."

Speak for yourself, Mike. I personally am happy burning Athasbaska hydrocarbons and Canadian on-shore natural gas in my vehicles and to heat my home. But ...... I could use the same argument right back at you "sweet" opium, or "sweet" hashish originating in the Islamic World being reason and necessity enough for staying in Afghanistan.  And we both know that line of thinking is wrong, seriously wrong.

Remember the last time we went down _this _particular trail Ol Buddy ?, the Mods cancelled the show. Is that what you want for this one, too?

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/modern/day-after-earth-day-32533.html

MM


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 25, 2012)

I have nothing against this thread, but I do see it going the way of the political threads pretty soon...


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 25, 2012)

*The Muslims are not happy:*

They’re not happy in Gaza .

They’re not happy in Egypt ..

They’re not happy in Libya .

They’re not happy in Morocco ..

They’re not happy in Iran .

They’re not happy in Iraq ..

They’re not happy in Yemen .

They’re not happy in Afghanistan ..

They’re not happy in Pakistan .

They’re not happy in Syria ..

They’re not happy in Lebanon .

*So, where are they happy?*

They’re happy in Australia .

They’re happy in England ..

They’re happy in France .

They’re happy in Italy .

They’re happy in Germany .

They’re happy in Sweden .

They’re happy in the USA .

They’re happy in Norway .

They’re happy in every country that is not Muslim.

And who do they blame?
Not Islam.

Not their leadership.

Not themselves.

They blame the countries they are happy in.
And they want to change them to be like the countries they came from, where they were unhappy;

Excuse me! 

[h/t Mayor of Mitchieville]


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## Matt308 (Sep 25, 2012)

Oh boy...


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## mikewint (Sep 27, 2012)

MichaelM, Yes indeed we did travel this road before and I am proud and thankful to say that Canada is one of our BEST friends and many many thanks for the almost 3,000 bbls you import to us per day. Also to Venezuela for its over 1,000 bbls/day and Mexico for its over 1200 bbls/day. We could not survive without it but the REALLY good stuff still comes from the Mid-East (over 2,200 bbls/day), it requires the least amount of refining, thus having the lowest environmental impact over all. The US has shales in the west that can provide crude oil at 50-100 tons of rock per bbl. Can be done, but at what cost?
I digress, back to the topic: If the fundamentalist Islamic sects take over and cut-off the great Satan we, the USA, are in trouble. So, yes, like it or not we have to find a way to deal with these fundamentalist types that does not turn them into martyrs to Islam. The Romans had a totally free hand with the Christians and look where it got them.


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 27, 2012)

"... The Romans had a totally free hand with the Christians and look where it got them."

The Papacy - in Rome. 

In other news, I think your numbers may be a trad 'dated'.


*September 2011 Import Highlights: Released November 29, 2011*

Monthly data on the origins of crude oil imports in September 2011 has been released and it shows that three countries exported more than 1,000 thousand barrels per day to the United States (see table below). The top five exporting countries accounted for 69 percent of United States crude oil imports in September while the top ten sources accounted for approximately 88 percent of all U.S. crude oil imports. The top five sources of US crude oil imports for September were *Canada (2,324 thousand barrels per day), Saudi Arabia (1,465 thousand barrels per day), Mexico (1,099 thousand barrels per day), Venezuela (759 thousand barrels per day)* and Nigeria (529 thousand barrels per day). The rest of the top ten sources, in order, were Colombia (510 thousand barrels per day), Iraq (403 thousand barrels per day), Ecuador (299 thousand barrels per day), Angola (283 thousand barrels per day) and Russia (275 thousand barrels per day). Total crude oil imports averaged 9,006 thousand barrels per day in September, which is a decrease of (16) thousand barrels per day from August 2011.

Canada remained the largest exporter of total petroleum in September, exporting 2,829 thousand barrels per day to the United States, which is an increase from last month (2,637 thousand barrels per day). The second largest exporter of total petroleum was Saudi Arabia with 1,479 thousand barrels per day.

Crude Oil Imports (Top 15 Countries)
(Thousand Barrels per Day)
Country Sep-11 Aug-11 YTD 2011 Sep-10 YTD 2010
CANADA 2,324 2,240 2,157 1,937 1,971
SAUDI 1,465 1,075 1,180 1,082 1,072
MEXICO 1,099 1,150 1,113 1,108 1,132
VENEZUELA 759 806 893 919 928

*Source:* Crude Oil and Total Petroleum Imports Top 15 Countries

There are perfectly good refineries in LA - TX _sitting idle _-- waiting to work. For the first time in decades, in 2012 the USA was a net_ exporter _of refined petroleum products - why wouldn't you want to do more? - isn't there a skilled job shortage currently?

As for "mining" shale to produce hydrocarbons, not necessary in the vast Bakken "play" located in the Dakotas, Montana and Saskatchewan. Fracking ... yes ... mining, no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakken_formation 

Keep warm and mobile my friend, even in Arkansas it must be getting cool at nights now 

MM


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## mikewint (Sep 27, 2012)

MichaelM, Not so far, had one night of 43F (6C). Have a heat-pump so just gasoline, and you are also correct I had some quick figures from 2010 laying around, but even so, note my 4 are still the same. Add the Saudi plus Iraq,Kuwait,Algeria, and Oman imports and that makes a good sized hole to fill AT A REASONABLE COST.
So again we have to deal reasonablly with unreasonable people who hate us from the start. Recall, all the 911 hijackers were Saudis.
I have no solution, wish I did. It is only a matter of time, IMHO, before one of their "headed to heaven" bombers shows up in New York, Chicago, or L.A. with a back-pack Nuke, Sarin, or Anthrax


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 27, 2012)

"... I have no solution, wish I did."

Continental self-sufficiency in oil.

MM


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## muscogeemike (Sep 27, 2012)

A better question is why are we still there? There is nothing in Afghanistan we need, nothing. If someone else wants the problems let them deal with it.


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## meatloaf109 (Sep 27, 2012)

Not to get too far out here, but "we" are not "we the people" any longer, its the global economy run by global corporations. They have their own agenda.
They give lots of money to polititions, and as we all know, money talks...I'm not necessarily a conspiracy nut, just something to think about.


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 28, 2012)

Rome and Carthage - two powerful military and commercial empires of old - were both "operated" by _syndicates_: just another name for big business. 

I think "we the people" is an almost mythological term unless you are speaking of small nations or tribes ....

And let's recall that the Mediterranean was shut down for trade in the early period after the rapid, militaristic expansion of Islam out of the Arabian dessert. That didn't stop trade however ... the Swedes/Norse simply took the Baltic and rivers in Russia to get to their "sources".

MM


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## mikewint (Sep 28, 2012)

MichaelM, Besides the name, you and I are 95% on the same page, I just dont think we can go back to the 1900's and be isolationist. Can we ignore the fact that there are nuclear weapons in the mid-East? Perhaps Israel and their Arab friends decide to nuke it out! That Russia(USSR) is still a viable presence and would jump with both feet into a power vacuum, and China has their first aircraft carrier and has every intent to become a superpower.
Afgan, no we don't want the place but to a great extent it is the source of the terrorist infection. Can we afford to ignore the Taliban, give them an entire country to foment further terrorism, nuclear, biological, nerve gas, ect?
Like it or not we are on the tiger's back and getting off is not posible


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 28, 2012)

Agreed. But we do NOT have to put up with grandstanding Islamic activists _*at home*_, Mike. This broad would be chopped in HER HOMELAND. The clip is tedious ... but ... more will come unless we stomp on "revisionist" interpretations of our laws and charters.

â€˜Defeat Jihadâ€™ subway poster defaced; Egyptian-born columnist arrested in New York - thestar.com

MM


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## mikewint (Sep 29, 2012)

Michael, When rights are granted, they are granted to all, as I have stated before, the most protected must be the ones you diagree with the most. It is a viseral thing, I well remember my reactions to that so-called religeous group protesting at the funerals of soldiers. So I agree with the court, the signs have a right to be posted and she had no right to deface them. If you disagree, post your own signs, if you want your own free speech protect the free speech of others


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 29, 2012)

"... When rights are granted, they are granted to all, as I have stated before .... if you want your own free speech protect the free speech of others..."

Bravo. 

It seems so sensible, so fair, so _natural_ a concept, and _just_. But it is turned back on us like a jujitsu move by a culture that will not speak up in citicism of its own actions and shortcomings yet at the same time attacks and weakens its "host" -- _our_ culture.

I hesitated before posting that linked New York Post video because I dislike in-your-face journalism/activism - aka - I AM THE STORY PEOPLE, Journalism.

But ....... then I got to thinking ... 

_*Imagine *_...... *Times Square Subway station - June, 1939:*

After the horror and publicity of Kristallnacht , a Jewish group in New York pays for sponsored adds in the subway that reads:

IN ANY WAR BETWEEN THE CIVILIZED MAN AND THE SAVAGE,
SUPPORT THE CIVILIZED MAN

Sponsored by American Jewish Committee 
for prevention of the Holocaust

Under such circumstances would Americans of German extraction and heritage have protested such signs - and called them racist? No. They would not. The German Consul in New York (a Nazi appointee) would have protested, certainly, but his complaint wouldn't be "racism" but rather the description of Germans as savages and uncivilized.

Well ... it's 2012 and the game has different players ... and seemingly different rules. But the stakes are higher than in '39.

MM

Proud Canadian


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## Erich (Sep 29, 2012)

have it on good authority IDF is mobilizing big time and I mean big time ...........


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## michaelmaltby (Sep 30, 2012)

*"Welcome Back Khadr" ....*

Khadr eligible for parole next summer, lawyers say - Politics - CBC News

Arrived at CFB Trenton early yesterday morning on the red-eye from Gitmo ....

70% of Canadians polled thought he should STAY there.

Could be on the street this spring - good behavior, y'all know.

He has launched a CDN$10 Million lawsuit against Canadian taxpayers for our government's role in his mistreatment.

Meanwhile, in the Big House (Millhaven, ON),where he is currently a guest of our government, you don't need a birthday cake to conceal "contraband" when mom and the sis wear burkas. 

MM
Proud Canadian


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## mikewint (Oct 1, 2012)

MichaelM, I do hear and on a viseral level I agree but then I remember pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984):

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

So it is an either/or. Either everyone has their full constitutional rights or no one has. Now I will preface that with this, a VERY slippery slope I know but, foreign nationals are not American citizens and do not get the same constitutioal rights. Human rights by all means and that needs to be addressed and defined. 
Our system has good and bad and it is indeed used against us but it is the best system in the world for all its flaws


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 1, 2012)

A staunch argument Mike .... but Pastor N was never a 'politician'. Like it or not politicians and the Military always must ensure that the individual "freedoms" don't usurp the greater societal needs ... in times of crisis and national emergency. Pastor N would not have interned the Japanese. Pastor N would never have authorized the use of the A bomb.

As I see it watching events .....: Either there _is_ a 'pattern' of events taking place in and originating from the Moslem World or there is _not_ .... only the 'random' passage of time and events.

I am not a conspiracy theorist - I detest such stuff. I _am_ an Occam's Razor Man.  For the most part I believe that the most obvious chain of events/explanation is usually the truth.

I _am_ an historian, however, and I have worked and travelled in the M-E and enjoy M-E culture and cuisine. That said: I believe the chain of events ... Af'stan and the Soviets, rich Saudi Arabia, various embassy and barracks bombings, Mogadeshu, Trade Center attempt 1, Trade Center 9-11 ..... Libya a week ago .... the "movie" .... all these events are the behavior of a cunning would-be conqueror that is constantly testing, testing, testing our defenses. 

If I'm paranoid, so be it. But if our society and values are truly under scripted attack .... I want to know. Don't you, Mike?.

MM


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## mikewint (Oct 1, 2012)

MichaelM, indeed it is, I have no doubt whatever. Those who stand for individual freedom will always be under attack from those who wish to control others and have them do/think/behave/believe in the manner THEY think is the correct way. As a historian you should see this writ plain and clear over all history. Read the paragraph again. One by one the "wrong thinkers/doers/speakers" are eliminated until only the right thinkers are left. Which leaves only you and me, and sometimes I wonder about you. The US "Patriot Act" did and still scares the Bejesus out of me. Let's just suspend these inconvenient rights for a while, you know, just until the crises is over with, maybe. There is a thread on this forum about the Japanese Internment Camps during WWII did we learn nothing from these gross violations of constitutionally guaranteed rights. Do we defeat the enemy by becoming the enemy? "I have seen the enemy, and he is us"


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 2, 2012)

"... did we learn nothing from these gross violations of constitutionally guaranteed rights".

YES we certainly did. The fact that we are discussing that internment tells you it was NOT swept under the carpet to be forgotten and denied. But - _if_ the lesson learned from that was that having - in times of dire crisis - allowed the state to conduct such actions (internment) we would never repeat such actions again - then, that lesson is the wrong lesson learned. The more "individual rights/freedoms" are stressed - the greater the threat they become to a society from those who would overturn that society by turning it against itself. 

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but rather what YOU can do for your COUNTRY". 

The collective trumps the individual when both are at risk from common peril. What rights and freedoms have been bestowed on your free, constitutional society by its current attackers, Mike? What have thy done to benefit America?

MM


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## mikewint (Oct 2, 2012)

MichaelM, too bad we are so far apart in distance, I would LOVE to sit and debate with you, would be a very interesting evening(s). Tell me if I summerize this correctly. Our single bone of contention is whether it is permissible to suspend constitutional rights during a time of crisis. Would you agree?
I/we had a thread going about Abe Lincoln whom I consider our 1st dictator. A man who IN TIME OF CRISIS violated the Constitution (that he had sworn to protect and defend against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC) time and time again. He suspended Habeus Corpus, issued unbacked money, prevented voters from voting, imprisoned detractors without trial, ect. Booth's words were "Sic Semper Tryanus" clearly he thought the same. Would all have gone back to "normal" after the war? Hard to say with Lincoln assinated but we still have "Play Money" in the US and recently the Patriot Act. It is difficult for the power brokers to "uncross the Rubicon" once they have tasted that new power.
So my friend since you are not "one of them" it is easy to suspend their rights, after all the current crisis demands it. Keep reading Pastor Martin. What happens to you and yours when a crises requires your rights to be curtailed? What happens when a crises requires voting to be suspended (by the way, in the US there is NO garanteed right to vote only prohibitions on who cannot be denied) and the current leaders decide only they can handle the crisis and need to stay in power an extra 20 years. Perhaps civil courts can't be trusted and you need to be tried by military tribunals.
Nazi Germany is a perfect example of a people surrendering their rights because of a CRISIS
Rights surrendered are seldom returned completely


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 2, 2012)

"... Nazi Germany is a perfect example of a people surrendering their rights because of a CRISIS".

An example yes - but of the most extreme kind - and in the name of what was fundamentally an "evil" cause. 

I am familiar with your views on President Lincoln - and while I have no stake in the debate - as a Canadian - I do NOT share your views. I do not believe the Civil War was avoidable - given the gaping dichotomy between "all men are created equal ..." and the reality of the time. I can understand where a JW Booth might be coming from ..... as a Southerner ... but I think the following link is a fair assessment of Lincoln's legacy:

http://arts.nationalpost.com/2012/10/09/abraham-lincoln-was-worthy-of-his-reputation

In my view, Martial Law or The War Measures Act are more typical examples of what I contemplate when I justify suspension of certain freedoms in times of national crisis. During WWII - with projects such as Manhattan - there was much secrecy, little transparency, and the Japanese were not the only group to find themselves in the eye of the state.

In Canada - in October, 1970, we had the October Crisis. The Federal Liberal government at the urging of the Premier of Quebec and the Mayor of Montreal declared the War Measures Act - in response to the kidnapping of a British diplomat (James Cross) and the murder of a Quebec Cabinet Minister (Pierre LaPorte). Habius Corpus was suspended, and there was a late night roundup of the "usual" suspects. The measure was supported - widely - in all of Canada except Quebec - but it was Quebec extremists that had caused the situation in the first place so there were few tears shed for them.

Things were returned to "normal" within weeks IIRC - and everyone felt that democracy had "normalized" except of course, the Quebec nationalists who were/are seeking to destroy the union (confederation) that is Canada. They have never forgotten but have never accepted their part in provoking events.

I think it a mistake and a provocation to use the example of Nazi Germany too loosely or too frequently. The United States is NOT Nazi Germany. Israel is not Nazi Germany. It is the presence of Evil that should requires the sensitive nerve .... not the limitation of "entitlements" per se. Is evil that hard to detect ...? Initially, in small doses, it can be. But like arsenic poisoning, evil in small doses has a cumulative effect. And that cumulative effect is what we are now seeing in the M-E.

Canada stood up at the UN yesterday and declared that the organization was in effect "useless" -- too focused on itself and "process" without any concrete solutions. I agree and wish Canada would withdraw. The UN is an organization that sanctions "evil" by careless omission - and when evil is uncovered - lacks any credibility or resolve to remove the evil. Oil for Food program (Iraq), UN soldiers pimping those they come to relieve (Haiti), Dictators and butchers being appointed to human rights tribunals. Need I go on ....

Pleasing/appeasing your enemies does not buy you their loyalty or friendship. 

I conclude by saying that a "crisis" is only a "crisis" if it is either reversible or addressable. And it is these situations that warrant putting the general good before the individual's rights and freedoms. When situations arise such as Zimbabwe - for example - or Syria today, it is beyond crisis - it is in death spiral mode, and in such situations it becomes everyman for himself -- and thus the end of society as a unifying element in people's lives.

MM


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## mikewint (Oct 2, 2012)

MichaelM, the evils of Nazi Germany are not the question here, remember Germany produced men like Goethe, Einstein, Joseph Mohr, Martin Luther, ect.
The flaw was in allowing a charismatic leader to create a CRISES, enlarge upon it, and then use that to step by step erode personal liberties and rights, all in the name of "the common good". Anyone opposed is automatically against good and therefore evil.
Plain and simple rights removed are seldom restored as the central power assumes more and more power unto itelf. Who declares the Crisis ended? and when?
As a historian let me quote Tolstoy: History would be excellent if it were true and perhaps Churchill: History is written by the victors.


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 2, 2012)

".... The flaw was in allowing a charismatic leader to create a CRISES ...."

With all respect - that is a jingoistic explanation of Hitler's "success". Germany - in defeat - refused to recognize that it was in massive defeat and broke(n). Without that mindset in the German people, Hitler's rise would not have succeeded, IMHO. 

I know German's cultural record and scientific/engineering achievements full well.

" .... As a historian let me quote Tolstoy: History would be excellent if it were true and perhaps Churchill: History is written by the victors."

The "History" that both your quotes refer to is not immutable ... it may be dictated by "victors" and enscribed by "novelists" but when the shooting and shouting is over - the outcome and consequences are "reality" and "fact" --- history that "isn't the truth" and fails to account for the reality and facts that people see with their own eyes (East Germany after WW2 for example) ... that sort of history has a way of being disowned over time.

The more eye witnesses to history there are -- the harder it is to outright lie about events. But I grant - that kind of lie does happen - but such a lie has nothing to do with "rights" and "freedoms" - such a lie is only possible *when the people want to believe the lie* (as Germany post 1918 proves) .... and for further example: the encirclement of the Egyptian Army by the Israelis in the Yom Kippur war. Israel was persuaded by Dr. Kissinger to let the Egyptian army withdraw ... allowing President Sadat to claim victory ...which the Egyptian people _wanted to believe_ in.

Some disenchanted people make much of their rights and freedoms in a democracy ..... their glass is always half-empty ...... yet they willingly throw them away or compromise their privacy and freedom with Facebook and Twitter ... etc. Should I take these people's concerns too seriously ...? NBL

England surrendered some rights and freedoms during WW2 .... did they return ...? I put it to you that _nothing returns exactly the same_ ..... the world England entered in 1946 was very different from 1939 ... and from 1914 even moreso. It is claimed that there is more video surveillance in the UK than any other country ...
is that a factor in lost rights and freedoms ...? Or is it typical British practicality - exploiting fully a new technology?

MM


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 2, 2012)

On a more grounded note, Christopher Speer was the Special Forces medic than Omar Khadr - the boy Jihadi - killed with a grenade in Af'stan.

Concurrent with Khadr's return to Canada - a scholarship fund has been established (by Canadians) for Speer's kids.

Speer Kids' Fund | Indiegogo

MM


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## mikewint (Oct 3, 2012)

MichaelM, Methinks we an impasse have. Had the Third Reich written the history of WWII i think an entirely different cast of criminals would have been tried with a totally different set of "Evils" perpetrated on the world. Much as Ramses II wrote the history of his victory at Kadesh or the US wrote the history of the Indians and the atrocities they perpetrated on the poor white settlers.
We will never agree on the suspenson of Liberty (try George Orwell's book) "Freedom is Slavery". As you said nothing is ever restored completely, rights and freedoms are slowly eroded over time if we allow any one or organization to cross that hard-line for some Crises or other
I do understand your points and admit they have some validity. Much as Rome appointed a dictator to deal with a crises who was then expected to step down from absolute power and return to his farm. Did not quite happen that way as I recall


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 3, 2012)

"... Had the Third Reich written the history of WWII i think an entirely different cast of criminals would have been tried with a totally different set of "Evils" perpetrated on the world..."

Interesting to "speculate" on that, Mike, but it was never, ever going to happen. The numbers - Production and Production to GDP - don't lie. 

*Country 1938 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945*
Austria 24 27 27 29 27 28 29 12
France[1] 186 199 164 130 116 110 93 101
Germany 351 384 387 412 417 426 437 310
Italy[2] 141 151 147 144 145 137 117 92
Japan[3] 169 184 192 196 197 194 189 144
Soviet Union359 366 417 359 274 305 362 343
British Isles 284 287 316 344 353 361 346 331
USA 800 869 943 1,094 1,2351,399 1,499 1,474
Allied Total 1,629 1,600 1,331 1,596 1,862 2,065 2,363 2,341
Axis Total: 685 746 845 911 902 895 826 466
Allied/Axis	2.38 2.15 1.58 1.75 2.06 2.31 2.86 5.02 
GDP

[Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II}

MM

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/axis-alliance-doomed-failure-outset-31460-2.html


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## mikewint (Oct 4, 2012)

MichaelM, Thank God and all the soldiers who fought against the Nazis but any data can be manipulated and given any spin wanted. There are those who truely believe the hollocaust never happened, books have been written and data produced. There was a recent thread on this forum in which a few stated that the German concentration camps were really just work camps. The Japanese still teach a very sanitized (from their viewpoint) version of what Japanese troops did and did not do in China and elsewhere. I was a personal witness to the manner in which the American news media slanted reporting of the Vietnam War until we somehow "lost". Very Slippery stuff this history


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 4, 2012)

"Very Slippery stuff this history"

Sure is ....

MM


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 7, 2012)

And now _Kuwait_ is starting to go ........ pear shaped:

Kuwaiti ruler dissolves parliament, setting up new elections; Islamists poised to win again

Remind me again why you want to depend of these guys for your hydrocarbons ....

MM
Proud Canadian


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## evangilder (Oct 7, 2012)

michaelmaltby said:


> Remind me again why you want to depend of these guys for your hydrocarbons ....
> 
> MM
> Proud Canadian



Very good question. That's a question the majority of the free world should be asking. If we could collectively put our resources and brains together, we could send the oil producing nations into bankruptcy.


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 7, 2012)

".... for the Taliban, the announcement of an end date has directed their focus. For now the they are waiting patiently, doing what they can to prepare the ground for the moments after ISAF has gone; adopting tactics to sow dissent and distrust of the ruling government among the populace ...."

Canadians took over the mentoring role in Af'stan for the ANA and were so confident ..... but now everyone they deal with is suspect..... Richard Johnson has covered this conflict with great prose and a great artist's eye and sketch book: 

Getting out of Afghanistan | Kandahar Journal | World | News | National Post

MM
Proud Canadian


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 11, 2012)

No comment:


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2MWom1i_sY_

MM
Proud Canadian


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## mikewint (Oct 12, 2012)

Was going to butt-out but: The Mid-east contains mostly "sweet, light" crude oils. Such crudes require little refining. As the quality of the crude declines it requires more and more refining. Canada does not have oil as such but vast fields of "Tar Sand" which with effort can, with difficulty, be made into crude oil. MichaelM and I had this discussion in another post. It comes down to a question of money. When the Mid-east can produce a barrel of sweet crude at the well head for about $1.25 US they can shut down any competition.
As of Sep 2011: Our wonderful Canadian friends(thank you MichaelM with all my heart) are our #1 supplier at 2324 Tbbls per day; but the Saudis have jumped to #2 at 1465 Tbbls per day; Mexico is now at #3 providing 1099 Tbbls per day; Venezuela dropped to #4 providing 759 Tbbls per day. Iraq still provides a respectable 403 Tbbls per day; Kuwait provides 145 Tbbls per day; Chad at 74 Tbbls and Oman at 72 Tbbls per day.
Could the US survive without any Mid-East oil? Yes, we could but it would cost dearly


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 12, 2012)

"... Could the US survive without any Mid-East oil? Yes, we could but it would cost dearly..."

.... with all those costs staying at _home _in the North American economy and more fully utilizing refining infrastructure in the U.S. -- already bought and paid for. 

MM


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 22, 2012)

What the sentencing judge judge said to the jihadi Shoe Bomber:

snopes.com: Judge William Young -- Shoe Bomber Sentencing

MM


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 23, 2012)

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/modern/lest-we-forget-october-23-1983-a-34491.html

h/t EvanGilder

October 23, 1983 was a foreshadowing of what was to come .... a shot across the bows of western power (america) and culture (france -- remember, this is Lebanon -- Paris of the ME). Rules of engagement, so-to-speak.

MM


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## mikewint (Oct 23, 2012)

Good Stuff MichaelM, Thanks for the posts


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## evangilder (Oct 24, 2012)

michaelmaltby said:


> http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/modern/lest-we-forget-october-23-1983-a-34491.html
> 
> h/t EvanGilder
> 
> ...



It was definitely the shapes of things to come. I was on delayed entry enlistment at the time, and it was a sobering reminder that the world was a dangerous place.


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## michaelmaltby (Oct 28, 2012)

*Horses and Bayonets ....*


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7cMcB9na3w_


MM


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 5, 2012)

Massive _firepower_ advantage for the US but _technological _advantage is impossible to maintain - on the _ground_:


Painting the Target


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 21, 2012)

Thoughtful on the events in Gaza and the M.E. generally ..... this isn't politics or religion ... it's common sense.

treppenwitz: Surrender or Die!

*"War is cruelty. There is no use in trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over."

~William Tecumseh Sherman~*

MM


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 22, 2012)

It just takes 2 seconds to understand


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## Readie (Nov 23, 2012)

michaelmaltby said:


> It just takes 2 seconds to understand



Well said Michael


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## michaelmaltby (Nov 28, 2012)

Nobody does it better ...

http://www.gulfstream.com/products/special-missions/recent-programs.htm#


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## michaelmaltby (Dec 7, 2012)

Did Bin Laden Win? - Poletical.com


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## michaelmaltby (Dec 10, 2012)

skip the commercial (sorry) .... and focus on those with whom we _share values_ like, for example, humor:


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByzbRonVqqM_

Proud Canadian


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## michaelmaltby (Dec 12, 2012)

Process:


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## michaelmaltby (Dec 14, 2012)

Underlying reality ...?

As Afghanistan and Pakistan fall apart, will Pashtunistan take root? | Full Comment | National Post


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## michaelmaltby (Dec 18, 2012)

Is _this_ really wise ...

US sending 20 more F-16s to Egypt, despite turmoil in Cairo | Fox News


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## michaelmaltby (Dec 24, 2012)

This is so sad and symptomatic of the quandary the west is in ..... we're there in part to _rescue_ the women:


Afghan policewoman kills American adviser - World - CBC News


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## michaelmaltby (Dec 31, 2012)

*You Do What You Have To Do ... or perish*

The takeoff from Sharm was one of the heaviest ever in the history of this airplane [C-130]. I didn’t have a clue what would happen.

The aircraft was crowded. I was carrying the Sayeret Matkal assault team ….. I was also carrying a Mercedes, which was supposed to confuse Ugandan soldiers at the airport, because Idi Amin, the country’s dictator, had the same car. And I also found room to pack Land Rovers and a paratrooper force.

I gave the plane maximum power, _and it was just taxiing, _not accelerating. At the very end of the runway, I was probably two knots over the stall speed, and I had to lift off. I took off to the north, but had to turn south where our destination was. I couldn’t make the turn until I gained more speed. Just making that turn, I was struggling to keep control, but you know, airplanes have feelings, [ ] and all turned out well.

Rescue at Entebbe: An Interview With the Chief Pilot • IDF Blog | The Official Blog of the Israel Defense Forces

Remember - nobody does it _better_.

2013 will be an interesting year, IMHO. The very best of health and luck and happiness - to All.

MM
Grateful Canadian


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## michaelmaltby (Jan 6, 2013)

*With Us or Against Us
*

Saudi Prince denies this story:

Saudi jets

There are those who believe that the much-needed reform/revolution in the Islamic World has to start in Saudi - Mecca, to be exact - where the whole show first got started.


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## michaelmaltby (Jan 13, 2013)

*France takes up the point in the war against Al Qaeda in Africa ....*

Mali: French airstrikes hit city of Gao | World | News | National Post

They have much to lose with their huge African population at home, if they lose. But France likes wars like this - sad to say - it reminds them that they were once Empire.

Good luck, France, the West needs _all_ the resources and courage it can collectively muster. 

MM
Proud Canadian


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## michaelmaltby (Jan 14, 2013)

Proud Toronto

HMCS Toronto headed for Arabian Sea | News957


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## krieghund (Jan 17, 2013)

michaelmaltby said:


> The Game's changing ...... throughout the Islamic World ..... Time to butt out ...?
> 
> 6 Harrier jets destroyed, 2 damaged in Taliban assault on Camp Bastion - The Long War Journal
> 
> Proud Canadian




Unfortunately you can't get out. The playbook has already been written and the outcome defined. One has to broaden their perspectives to the bigger picture. 

Eph 6:12 Because our conflict is not barely with flesh and blood, but against the principalities and the powers; against the rulers of this dark age, against the spiritual [assaults] of the wickedness in the heavenly dispensation; 

For those which are interested, if you compare Islamic and Christian Eschatology you will find more than a dozen parallels between the two except the ending. And those comparisons are eerily similar coming from two completely separate religions diametrically opposed to each other in fundamental beliefs. 

I also believe that the martyrs will be getting 72 Sultana Raisins but I hope they like them roasted.


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## stona (Jan 17, 2013)

krieghund said:


> And those comparisons are eerily similar coming from two completely separate religions diametrically opposed to each other in fundamental beliefs.



Whaaaaaat!!!!!!

Steve


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## michaelmaltby (Jan 17, 2013)

"... The playbook has already been written and the outcome defined"

I believe in Free Will, kreighund. 

MM


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## meatloaf109 (Jan 17, 2013)

The whole "You must die because you don't believe in my invisible friend" concept is repugnant and not worthy of the 21st century. It is long past time to abandon iron-age mythologies. The idea that a "creator of the universe" would favor one group of smelly nomads over another is hardly the way to govern your life and actions.


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## krieghund (Jan 17, 2013)

michaelmaltby said:


> "... The playbook has already been written and the outcome defined"
> 
> I believe in Free Will, kreighund.
> 
> MM



I'm with you 100% and that is how it is meant to be.

However consider this, are we created? If so are we accountable to that creator? If He has the ability to create us he has the get a message to us but it has to be in a way not to abrogate our free will.

Christians have no right to force any belief on anyone only share the good news. And that is by the book, I don't care what denominations do. After that you have that Ripley's moment.

Look at my location, I have already been informed once they take over the world it is accept their way or I go the way or the sword. 

You have your right to determine your life and the Bible makes that plain.

Sorry didn't mean to preach but you need to know where I come from.


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## krieghund (Jan 17, 2013)

stona said:


> Whaaaaaat!!!!!!
> 
> Steve



Which part do you have a question about?


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## Erich (Jan 17, 2013)

simplification Gents

it started in the mid-east and will end in the mid-east, US of A is not known anywhere in biblical terms but no matter we are a weak nation now to ever become weaker in my opinion where we will not matter a hoot in world affairs in the future, and you hear of sustainability, well it is meaning more than your own personal garden guys, we better wake the F*** up !


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## krieghund (Jan 17, 2013)

The only part where it is thought the USA is mentioned is in Ezekiel 39 which makes reference to the Gog-Magog war which takes place sometime after the Harpazo (Rapture) and before the seven years of Jacob's trouble. It is thought to resemble nuclear war. The chapters have an instructions about people finding things after the war and how to mark them and get the clean up guys. Kind of like UXOs instructions.

Eze 39:6 I will indeed send a fire against Gog and the isles shall be peaceably inhabited, and they shall know that I am the Lord. 

The USA is though of as the Isles.


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## Erich (Jan 17, 2013)

your terminology is debatable of course as to whom gog/ma-gog really is. but I go back to the reality end affairs will happen in the mid-east, ALL will be centered right here.


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## Njaco (Jan 17, 2013)

You guys get any more cerebral and I'm gonna close the thread and force ya'll to take a test on Dianetics.


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## krieghund (Jan 17, 2013)

Yes it is an interesting study but you are exactly correct..............it will be centered where I am present residing!!


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## michaelmaltby (Jan 17, 2013)

I'll see you_ your_ test, Njaco and raise you a Harpazo. 

MM


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## Njaco (Jan 17, 2013)

michaelmaltby said:


> I'll see you_ your_ test, Njaco and raise you a Harpazo.
> 
> MM



Curses, foiled again!


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## Matt308 (Jan 17, 2013)

Foiling is a religion? I just thought it was a simpleton's means of disrupting alien RF energy. Learn something every day.


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## michaelmaltby (Jan 25, 2013)

Good slideshow on French forces operating in Mali:

France's military intervention against Islamist fighters in Mali - Telegraph

MM


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## Erich (Jan 25, 2013)

along with some Italien help as well as good ol US of A.

will be watching our Women as they receive more combat training and then off to ......... (?)


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## michaelmaltby (Jan 25, 2013)

And one of our Canadian C-17 Globemaster II's is now on station in Africa providing heavy lift for the French.

MM


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## michaelmaltby (Feb 16, 2013)

*Oh sure, this is bound to make the situation better:*

Afghan forces banned from calling NATO air strikes: Karzai | Business Standard


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## Matt308 (Feb 17, 2013)

Afganistan is doomed to repeat the 6th century. Especially with Karzai and his corrupt cronies in office.


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## michaelmaltby (Feb 26, 2013)

Another step backward:

Karzai orders US special forces out of Afghan province - Democratic Underground

MM


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## Readie (Feb 26, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> Afganistan is doomed to repeat the 6th century. Especially with Karzai and his corrupt cronies in office.




Same old same old really Matt....why do we bother?


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## michaelmaltby (Feb 27, 2013)

*Serenity now ......*

Iran's chief negotiator Saeed Jalili in Almaty today Photo: AP


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 8, 2013)

*Every single one counts:*

In court, bin Laden relative denies plot charge | Reuters

MM


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 12, 2013)

*Another Insider Attack*

BBC News - US troops killed in Afghan 'insider attack'


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## Matt308 (Mar 12, 2013)

Karizia accuses US and coalition of colluding with Taliban to undermine our 11 ****ING YEARS TRYING TO RESCUE THIS BACKASSWARDS NATION FROM STONEAGE OBLIVION!!!.

Get the **** out of there now and let them wallow in their Islamic cesspool of extremism. Meanwhile, we can bomb the **** out of them with UCAVs without his fooking permission. Remove all aid. Give him the finger. And feast on pig. We've done all we can for these Cro Magnon men.

Oh... to harsh?


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## Marcel (Mar 13, 2013)

Unfortunately it's always the comon man who pays the price.


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## krieghund (Mar 13, 2013)

Harsh? Hell no!! but I prefer to give them carpets..................delivered via B-52s. We must still have a crap load of 500 Lbs lron left over from Nam.

But here is the problem...you let them alone they won't leave you alone.....Check this out..can't quite happen in America yet cause Obummer hasn't disarmed us yet.....

Mass prayers in Paris... 

http://downloads.cbn.com/cbnnewsplayer/cbnplayer.swf?aid=17933


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## Matt308 (Mar 13, 2013)

What hotties.


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 15, 2013)

"... Check this out..can't quite happen in America yet"

You think ..... look again:

snopes.com: Obama Is Changing the Face of America


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 15, 2013)

Karzai - if you're not part of the solution you are The Problem:

US commander in Afghanistan warns troops to brace for violence after Karzai’s anti-US comments - The Washington Post

MM


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## Readie (Mar 15, 2013)

There is an answer to this, whether it would acceptable in our delicate world is another matter of course.
I do believe that if America and her allies are pushed and pushed the reaction will be extreme.
Despite all the cuts we still have a few Trident missiles kicking about....


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 18, 2013)

Make of this what you will - but this war game study has a certain reality-ring to it. Remember how it all got started back in Munich .....? .... _freedom_ kept losing the capacity TO ACT .....? And then .....?


How Iran can beat Israel | Full Comment | National Post

MM

StandWithIsrael Canadian


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## Matt308 (Mar 18, 2013)

The comments in that link were hilarious. I got blissfully lost for 15min there.


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 25, 2013)

My, my ... this looks promising ....

Karzai heads to Qatar to discuss peace with Taliban | World | News | Toronto Sun

Remember how productive all those talks with the PLO really were ....


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## Matt308 (Mar 25, 2013)

Who's he going to negotiate with? 5,000 village elders from Africa, Middle East, Americas, Euruope, Phillipines, etc? On second thought I vote for America to build them a stadium to meet in. Group picture. Wait for flash.


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## michaelmaltby (Apr 1, 2013)

That's $100 Million that won't be buying flying lessons:

HMCS Toronto makes history with massive heroin haul | Canada | News | Toronto Sun

Well done, Toronto and Crew

Proud Canadian


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## Matt308 (Apr 4, 2013)

Yeah I saw that in the news. Somebody's pissed off right now. Be nice if we could intercept all of the heroin. Let the taliban pay the Afghannies to grow the poppy and produce the heroin and then we dump it into the sea. Perfect business model.


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## Erich (Apr 4, 2013)

my statement from some years ago still stands ..................... where's my Velodrome ? !


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## Readie (Apr 4, 2013)

And now we have the North Korean lunatic playing up.
Will they wont they?
Silly bastards


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## meatloaf109 (Apr 4, 2013)

Nort Korea is the snotty nosed brat that talks big as long as they have big brother China backing them. They lose that if they go nuke.


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## Matt308 (Apr 4, 2013)

China slapped them this last time. Kim Jung Un is nothing more than a puppet. He does what he is expected to do (be a figure head) for the communist dogma. The military is running that country and using the "regime".


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## parsifal (Apr 4, 2013)

Ive read somewhere, that "Muslim Extremism" is a recent permutation of that faith. Historically for a long time, it was the Muslims that were the cultured educated ones, and the Europeans the bloodthirsty barbarians. Im not sure exactly why things have changed so completely.

i like to believe that the majority of Muslims are rational balanced human beings respectful of human life and suportive of progressive ways of thinking. but there are alot of exceptions to that. for me the behaviour of the palestinians to Israel is outrageous, even if there are so-called mitigating circumstances. 

I dont think relations between Muslims and the west will ever recover from the events of the last 50 years or so.


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## Matt308 (Apr 4, 2013)

Not in my lifetime. And still stoopid young Americans like that dumb C who went and stood in front (and behind!!) the Isreali armoured bulldozer and was run over. I have no sympathy for her nor her ilk.


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## michaelmaltby (Apr 4, 2013)

"... relations between Muslims and the west will ever recover from the events of the last 50 years or so."

Relations with western Christendom never recovered from the Battle of Tours, October, 782:

Battle of Tours - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Crusades just made the situation worse, but there has never been peaceful co-existence, just either colonization from the west (and Turkey) or dhimitude from the Islamic world.

Dhimmitude - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This a far more complex challenge to Western thought and values than Communism ever was.

MM


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## parsifal (Apr 5, 2013)

Ive got a good friend that is jewish. he says that until the 1920's jews and arabs lived side by side in Palestine in complete harmony. Thats a viewed shared by my late grandfather, who was fighting in palestine in 1916-18. 

My Jewish friend, moreover says that many jews lived quite peacefully throughout Muslim countries in the Middle East until just after the war. Then the process of radicalisation began. The bile and utter prejudice that is taught in the name of islam against the jews is utterly shocking. They are railed in the most ing ways, labelled pigs and dogs, openly encourage discrimination and completely unlawful discrimination. The only option left really to many jews is now to relocate to Israel, and that of course has inherent problems with the two state solution.

For israel the story of its inception is unfortunate, and now coming home to afflict the nation. The Israelis, in setting up the new state, broke some eggs and stepped on some peoples lives. Radical islamics have exploited that for all they can. If we want to be honest, there are some grievanaces and injustices at the hands of the israelis, but these are continualy beaten out of proportion and worked for all they are worth by th4e headline conscoius islamic radicals that seek to divide and sensationalise the issue at every turn. 

I am mindful of the ban on politics in this place, and i feel we are at this moment sailing too close to the boundary here.


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## GrauGeist (Apr 5, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> Who's he going to negotiate with? 5,000 village elders from Africa, Middle East, Americas, Euruope, Phillipines, etc? On second thought I vote for America to build them a stadium to meet in. Group picture. Wait for flash.


I have the perfect visual aid for you here:


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## Readie (Apr 5, 2013)

Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
Abraham Lincoln


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## Matt308 (Apr 5, 2013)

Muslim who beheaded two men arraigned in New Jersey - National Law Enforcement | Examiner.com

Not gonna see this in the national news . 

Because the sheeple of America are too interested in tripe like this. 

http://wonderwall.msn.com/entertain...disses-kiss-from-prince-william-24361.gallery


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## Readie (Apr 6, 2013)

That's because in your heart of hearts the Americans would love to have a monarchy Matt.
The world can be in turmoil, bankrupcy looms, bomb chuckers everywhere and emmigrants coming out of our ears but....if all else fails the breaking news of Prince Phillips latest trip to hospital will keep the proles distracted while the our enemies plot.
Sound familiar?


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## michaelmaltby (Apr 6, 2013)

"... The world can be in turmoil, bankrupcy looms, bomb chuckers everywhere and emmigrants coming out of our ears but....if all else fails the breaking news of Prince Phillips latest trip to hospital will keep the proles distracted while the our enemies plot..."

Sounds a bit paranoid, Pillgrim, IMHO, but I do believe institutions such as the British Monarchy and similar(s) help people focus by providing continuity. I love America and think it has its own 'continuities' ... however ... the constant election cycle inherent in the US system makes for constant 'churn' -- which sometimes isn't helpful .... for the _butter_. 

MM


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## Readie (Apr 6, 2013)

'Sounds a bit paranoid, Pillgrim, IMHO, but I do believe institutions such as the British Monarchy and similar(s) help people focus by providing continuity'.

You are never alone when you are paranoid Michael but, I am cynical about those in charge.
Maybe you feel more secure in 2013 than I (we) do here. 
The press / establishment has always diverted attention and as the house of Windsor is back in the public heart after the Diana debacle the royals are a good source of 'diversion'.
I'll give you example...North Korea starts rattling its sword and Cameron is now supporting the replacement of the Trident missile system after years of saying 'we cannot afford it'. The next news item was a 40 year old woman who has been told that the NHS cannot pay for her life extending drugs as they are too expensive...so, I ask myself what do we really need in these times of economic hardship? A new trillion pound nuclear deterent or, looking after our own peoples health?
I despair sometimes I really do.


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## michaelmaltby (Apr 6, 2013)

"... Maybe you feel more secure in 2013 than I (we) do here. .."

This is undoubtedly true .... we in the _democratic _colonies are well and truly blessed at this particular point in the space-time continuum.


MM

Thankful Canadian


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## Readie (Apr 6, 2013)

This is undoubtedly true .... we in the democratic colonies are well and truly blessed at this particular point in the space-time continuum.

Ummm....perhaps its a case of the children doing rather better than the aging parent Michael.
I'm glad for you guys.

Cheers
John 

Unsettled England


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## Matt308 (Apr 6, 2013)

Readie said:


> The next news item was a 40 year old woman who has been told that the NHS cannot pay for her life extending drugs as they are too expensive...so, I ask myself what do we really need in these times of economic hardship? A new trillion pound nuclear deterent or, looking after our own peoples health?
> I despair sometimes I really do.



Death panels!! Hah! We gots us one of those too, now. Vive la govt!


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## michaelmaltby (Apr 6, 2013)

"... perhaps its a case of the children doing rather better than the aging parent.."

Perhaps - but I think societies have to _re-invent_ themselves from Time-To-Time ..... the natural killer of that _positive_ process is cynicism. Canadian society is blessed (at this time) with the space and riches to let the re-invention process take place - constructively. Australia the same I would immagine. 

The UK has wound up with the wrong set of social-economic priorities. I know Maggie T. doesn't cheer you up John, , but you gotta admit, even a shot of _penicillin _in hip hurts.

Healthy Canadian

MM


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## Readie (Apr 6, 2013)

michaelmaltby said:


> "... perhaps its a case of the children doing rather better than the aging parent.."
> 
> Perhaps - but I think societies have to _re-invent_ themselves from Time-To-Time ..... the natural killer of that _positive_ process is cynicism. Canadian society is blessed (at this time) with the space and riches to let the re-invention process take place - constructively. Australia the same I would immagine.
> 
> ...



Maybe we have Michael...trying too hard to be so many different things to too many people and loosing ourselves in the process.
I admire the French for their determination to 'be French' and rather wish that we could find the courage to 'be British'.
Not in a EDL way just be ourselves.
Maggie scolded us into leaving the 1970's behind...maybe it was needed but, there are a lot of folks like me that we never forgive her.
Mind you there is another generation that will never forgive Blair for his lies.
Its very hard not to be cynical too.
We could learn a lot by looking at Canada. The Immigration / Customs policy is one...you abandon the model and we adopt it....
Hey ho

Confused Britain


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## GrauGeist (Apr 6, 2013)

If all of that isn't enough, I was rather startled the other day when my Fiancé (who's still stuck in Bulgaria on business) made a comment to me after watching the news about what's going on here in the United States.

Bear in mind that she is a native born Bulgarian and raised during communist times and has since seen them struggle to cast off the last vestiges of the regime.

Her comment was (this is a direct cut-and-paste): 


> Honey ! the States look now like our communists times in our countries here many years back
> 
> i dont believe this happens in US that supposed to be the most free country ever


What could I possibly say to this in 500 words or less?

I could blame the democrats or I could blame the republicans. I could blame the media or I could blame the educators.

But in the end, placing blame on anything is like putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound...


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## Matt308 (Apr 6, 2013)

Dont' say anthin'. Just look are your shoes and say... "I'm sorry honey".


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## Matt308 (Apr 6, 2013)

Gentlemen, I think that our discussions have become much too political. As you know political discussions are not suffered lightly on this forum. I know that we have been meandering back and forth across that subjective line of acceptability for months now. My personal take is that this thread has continued to exist only because of my personal contributions as a Moderator has been looked upon in a kind light. While the other Mods have never said anything to me nor posted concern in our sub-forum, their conspicuous absence in posting in this thread just screams at me that we (I) have crossed the line.

I'm locking this thread. We can take further discussions offline via PMs if it is that important to us. I appreciate the other Mods being patient with us.

Unfortunately, I have the right to be silent, but do not have the ability.


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