# Need your help, please!



## Susan (Aug 31, 2006)

My son is doing his history fair project on the triumphs and tragedies of WWII aircraft. Do you have suggestions of where he can locate good resources?

Thanks in advance!


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 31, 2006)

Right here! Triumphs? Midway. Tragedies? Ploesti. Good luck!


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## evangilder (Aug 31, 2006)

If you have an air museum or CAF chapter nearby, he can get a ton of good information.


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## loomaluftwaffe (Sep 1, 2006)

wow, ur son is lucky that he can get help from his parents for his projects 

triumphs? ty googling those words mentioned like Ploesti or Midway
or maybe even just type them in here, there is a search button somewhere


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## Susan (Sep 1, 2006)

Thanks for your suggestions!

I'm pretty much an ogre parent with internet sites, so I told him I'd join the forum, but he has to do his own research  He's in 8th grade and he loves the subject of planes, especially of this era.

We are in North Florida, so I'm not sure if there are resources close to here. He is trying to decide whether to do an exhibit or a 10 minute documentary. We were worried about using footage - whether that would be costly or infringing on copywrites, etc.

ANy other thoughts or suggestions?


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## evangilder (Sep 1, 2006)

Since it is for a school project, copyrights shouldn't be too much of an issue. The only CAF chapter in Florida is in Deland, I have no idea where that is in association with where you are. There is also one in Atlanta Georgia. If he is looking to do an exhibit, feel free to use any of the iamges from my website. If there are specific aircraft he is looking for, post here as I know there are others that have private collections.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 1, 2006)

What kind of specific aircraft is he looking for. We have a world of information here on this site and I am sure everyone here would be willing to help with pics or information of the types.


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## loomaluftwaffe (Sep 2, 2006)

for info, he could (or you) search around here in the picture album, or even try wikipedia

for good wwII color pics
World War 2 Pictures In Color
and FYI, i am a little 7th grade meatball from a 3rd world country


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## Gnomey (Sep 2, 2006)

Yep that is a good site for colour pics.

@Looma - you don't have to put yourself down all the time...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 2, 2006)

tell you what, as you're Americans why not go for a different angle other than primarily american events? combat on the eastern front for example, harder to research but very different to an all American presentation, come up with a theme for the project and we'll all help.........


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## evangilder (Sep 3, 2006)

Interesting idea, Lanc. A lot of Americans don't know that you Brits won the Battle of Britain without us colonials. There is a wealth of info on the BoB here.


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## Susan (Sep 3, 2006)

He is very familiar with all types of planes from various countries - he definitely doesn't want to focus on one country or one type of plane. He is not here, but will be home on Monday. I'll have him look at your responses and then let him post more specific questions.

The biggest thing he has to do is show that there were both triumphs and tragedies (the History Fair theme this year) and what sparked them. For instance, which aircrafts were clearly triumphs (an increased payload, faster, more accurate) and which ones weren't? Were some put together too quickly because of the war and not tested enough? Was there a reason or need to increase fuel efficiency or payload? 

You get the idea...

I really do appreciate all of your suggestions! He's going to be so surprised that there's a community out here like this. Hope everyone is having a great weekend!


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## Pisis (Sep 3, 2006)

In bigger scale, the Battle of Poland and France was a tragedy, and also ocuppation of Czechoslovakia, the planes ready for fight were took over by Nazis without a single shot duie to the Munich Agreement... But I'm going off topic. I definately agree on the Battle of Britain, it was a key event in WW2...


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## evangilder (Sep 3, 2006)

For triumph and tragedy in the same vein, the Me-262 was a technological marvel, a triumph. In the end it was too little, too late and the alloys that were needed for heat treating the engines was not available. So it was a triumph in engineering and a tragedy in logistics and supply.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 3, 2006)

yes i think that a triumph born out of a tragedy is a good idea, like a presentation on one tragedy, and then explain the lessons learnt and then explain how that was applied to a triumph, for example dare i say it, the tragedy of the Avro Manchester and the Triumph of the Avro lancaster


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 6, 2006)

I agree Eric. Any number of German projects from WW2 would be great to do a project on because they all were successful in some way but in another they failed such as the Me-262, Ta-152, etc...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 6, 2006)

As for Battles an interesting one that could be covered would be the North Africa campaign. It is full of Triumphs and tragedies.


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## alastairmonk (Sep 6, 2006)

This year is the 70th anniversary of the first flight of the Spitfire. Whilst this may seem an obvious choice it does fit in with the remit - one of the best planes of the War, frequently flown in the early years by volunteer Americans, whilst many fresh, young pilots never made it past their first operation.

One big advantage is that there is likely to be a lot of information for your son to use !

Alastair


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 7, 2006)

this's true, it's looking more and more likely that you should do a Battle of Britain and the Blitz presentation as few americans will know about it and the triumph could be fending off the Luftwaffe, tragedy being the bombing of civilians perhaps?


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## Susan (Sep 7, 2006)

He got feedback from his teacher, who wants the topic narrowed downto one plane. So, he'd like to see what you think about either the ME 262 or the ME163 Komet. Which do you think would be the best choice? Or is there another one that would be better?


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## Pisis (Sep 8, 2006)

I don't want to be picky but why doesn't your son do it yourself? It's been more then a week and we still haven't seen him...

As for the project, I'd suggest Me 262 _"Schwalbe"_ rather then Me 163 _"Komet"_, but it's up to him.


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## loomaluftwaffe (Sep 8, 2006)

How about the truth about the 109? many know it as a famous but crappy plane, it should be changed


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## Gnomey (Sep 8, 2006)

Pisis said:


> I'd suggest Me 262 "Schwalbe" rather then Me 163 "Komet", but it's up to him.



I'd agree with that Pisis.


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## Pisis (Sep 8, 2006)

loomaluftwaffe said:


> How about the truth about the 109? many know it as a famous but crappy plane, it should be changed


Crappy plane? Never heard that, Loomie...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 8, 2006)

i'd say, of the two, the Me-163 simply because the Me-262 already gets a lot written about it..........

and pisis Susan's explained that she is simply coming onto this forum on behalf of her son in case we're all, you know, a bit like that  and no, i'm not talking about being Canadian


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 8, 2006)

Yes Pisis she is just looking out for son based off of the kind of wacky people are on the internet these days. There is nothing wrong with her wanting to protect her son.

Having said that Susan we are all serious history buffs here and many military veterans and your son would be safe on this website. Us moderators and regular long time members would make sure of it.

Now as for the topic I would probably go with the Me-163 as Lanc said only because it gets less attention than the Me-262.

We can hook him up with facts, stats and photos of the Komet.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 8, 2006)

but as for the Triumph and Tragedy? tough one with the Komet, Triumph in the advance in technology perhaps and well the tragedy's obvious, the fact it kinda sucked....

failing that, in an effort to get a stronger single aircraft triumph/tragedy how about an aircraft that perhaps wasn't very good on one front, but was fantastic on annother, struggling to think of examples off my head but for example the Buffalo perhaps, not so great for the americans but the Finns used them very well, and using an aircraft used by annother nation will also teach them about the other nation's role in the war, i'm sure there are far better examples of non US (the reason i'm trying to find non-US examples is because it might be more interesting for Americans to hear about foreign aircraft they might know little about) aircraft used by many nations, one of which flunked with them, the other very successful, just a case of looking harder than me to think of one


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## Pisis (Sep 8, 2006)

Yes, I understand that, but in 8th grade I think he is old enough to not be protected by his mommy anymore. And I don't mean that as an offense. Maybe I'm going a bit off topic here but as I work with the American students, I see mayn of them are much more naive then the same old people from other countries. 

Susan, you're really not helping him _that much_ by avoiding him to access the site. And if he wants to watch porn, he will do it anyways, if this is the reason. 

I mean because of this education, many of Americans have quite weird attitude, they aren't self-reliant...

But it's just my perosnal opinion though and I don¨t want to make any offense.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 8, 2006)

not really re-assuring her pisis  we should respect her wishes, and help her with her request, i'm quite enjoying thinking of ideas, although we've been at this for a while isn't it about time we decide something final so he can actually start work on this thing ...........


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## R Leonard (Sep 8, 2006)

You might want to take a little side trip over the Pensacola and visit the National Museum of Naval Aviation at the Naval Air Station Open everyday but Christmas. There are some very helpful folks there and a rather extensive, albeit specialized, library (that's where all my stuff is earmarked to go when I'm ready to check out). If you go, give my Dad's name a pat for me when you see it on the von Tempsky wall (you'll know the wall when you see it).

Regards,

Rich


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 8, 2006)

the lancaster kicks *** said:


> ...and no, i'm not talking about being Canadian


Pffffff! You only wish. 

Eh? 



Welcome Susan. We're a bit weird around here sometimes, but...Nah, who am I kidding? We're just weird.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 9, 2006)

the lancaster kicks *** said:


> but as for the Triumph and Tragedy? tough one with the Komet, Triumph in the advance in technology perhaps and well the tragedy's obvious, the fact it kinda sucked....
> 
> failing that, in an effort to get a stronger single aircraft triumph/tragedy how about an aircraft that perhaps wasn't very good on one front, but was fantastic on annother, struggling to think of examples off my head but for example the Buffalo perhaps, not so great for the americans but the Finns used them very well, and using an aircraft used by annother nation will also teach them about the other nation's role in the war, i'm sure there are far better examples of non US (the reason i'm trying to find non-US examples is because it might be more interesting for Americans to hear about foreign aircraft they might know little about) aircraft used by many nations, one of which flunked with them, the other very successful, just a case of looking harder than me to think of one



I fully agree with you, even about the Komet.

Not really aircraft but another interesting one would be the V-2 rocket. It was a huge step in technology and led to the space rocket program but the tragedy would the be the use against civilian targets.


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## Pisis (Sep 9, 2006)

Well then basically the whole WWII was a _triumphotragedy_...


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## Susan (Sep 9, 2006)

We haven't been able to get on for a while and haven't read all the posts, but let me explain...though I have been using the word "I", my son is sitting right next to me. He was the one who came up with the two types of planes ideas - I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was doing too much on this. TO be honest, this is so not my area of expertise - I don't understand half of your suggestions 

I sincerely appreciate your concern, but in no way could I begin to help him too much on this project - it's a lot out of my league


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## Susan (Sep 9, 2006)

Hi, my name is Tucker. Thanks for you suggestions. I think I'm going to go with the Spitfire. Can you help me find resources? 

I don't want to bother you, I was wondering if you could help. This is a neat site. My mom is right, she couldn't help me with this.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 9, 2006)

the swordfish- a technical tragedy, a bloody operational triumph


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## Pisis (Sep 9, 2006)

Hi Tucker.

For Spitfire, just use Google, I'm sure there's tons of data...
See also: Supermarine Spitfire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It's better that you make your project and then come up with exact things you'd like to help with.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 9, 2006)

fair enough choice i guess but what's the triumph and tragedy gonna be?

and the best thing you can do is come up with the frame work, an idea what you wanna talk about and include, obviously you'll have to do a lot of work but we can help you a little too..........


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## Gnomey (Sep 9, 2006)

Triumph - Great plane
Tragedy - designer died before it saw it's full potential...


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## Micdrow (Sep 9, 2006)

If for some reason you cant find something specific on the spitfire, Just ask I have lots of info on the spitfire including a flight and parts manual on a model of the spitfire. Just ask and I will see if I can help also


Micdrow


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## DIOGENIS (Sep 10, 2006)

How about an aircraft that caused BOTH tragedy AND a triumph? B 29 Enola Gay, marked the end of the biggest horror the world faced which marks a triumph, the WW II.Launched another horror, the atomic bomb and the wrong usage of it for the next decades which it definitely is a tragedy..


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 10, 2006)

i think he's fairly set on the B-29 and i think it's a good idea to go for a non-US plane as they will've all heard of the B-29 and about the atom bomb already so teaching them a bit about a foreign plane will be teaching them something new, just make sure if you mention the battle of Britain you mention the Hawker Hurricane too...............


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## C_Lemay (Sep 10, 2006)

The P-51 is a great example of a triumph that was a near tragedy. The Mustang is the plane that almost wasn't. The Brits had originally approached North American Aviation to build the P-40 for them under license but instead NA offered to design them a new and better aircraft from scratch and produce it in the same amount of time. Hurriedly designed and offering lack luster performance the plane could have ended up a footnote of WW2 aviation history but after the airframe was married to the Rolls Royce Merlin engine and some minor redesign to squeeze in the maximum amount of fuel the plane became one of the most important weapons in both Europe and the Pacific.

Some books to look for at your local library:

P-51 Mustang: Development of the Long-Range Escort Fighter
By Paul A. Ludwig and Tom Tullis

The Concise Guide to American Aircraft of World War II
By David Mondey

The Air War in Europe - from Time Life Books World War II series
By Ronald H. Bailey


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 10, 2006)

Yeah but everyone in the US knows about the P-51 and thinks of it as the greatest thing since bread and butter.

I with Lanc on this, do something that is not American so that they can learn that there were other great things out there not produced in the US.


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## Susan (Sep 11, 2006)

Thanks for your help and replies but I think I'll stick with the spitfire. I've done some research and have some reading to do. I'll have more details soon.
Tucker


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## Matt308 (Sep 12, 2006)

DIOGENIS said:


> How about an aircraft that caused BOTH tragedy AND a triumph? B 29 Enola Gay, marked the end of the biggest horror the world faced which marks a triumph, the WW II.Launched another horror, the atomic bomb and the wrong usage of it for the next decades which it definitely is a tragedy..



WTF? "...the wrong usage of it..."? The US invades Okinawa, suffers 50k dead or wounded, calculates homeland invasion costs, and makes a horrific decision. What exactly is the "wrong usage of it" that we are inferring to here?


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## Pisis (Sep 12, 2006)

He is referring to the first usage of an atomic bomb and the casualities it has done to the people - cacncer and stuff...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 13, 2006)

I was waiting for someone else to bring that up. I think the Atomic bombing of Japan was the right thing to do. It ended a war and saved more lives than it killed.


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## Matt308 (Sep 13, 2006)

My point exactly. War is hell and it is always better to kill your enemy than for you enemy to kill you. It worries me that the revisionists continue to paint the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombing in black and white terms where the US makes a decision that is couched as nothing more than a cruel live test of ordnance. There is nothing further from the truth. The japanese were behaving in fanatical ways that the world has not seen until late with fascist islam. Okinawa was just a precursor to what was believed to be a long and bloody invasion of the Japanese homeland. We lose 13k and the Japanese 100,000+. Civilians are jumping off cliffs with their children and JIA and JIN personnel are commiting suicide for their syphilitic emperor. The war should have already been over, but there was no indication that the Japanese were even close to relenting. The Pacific campaign was brutal on both sides. Only Yamamota recognized that awakening the sleeping giant was ultimately a very poor decision.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 13, 2006)

i think it was the right thing to do but i also think that's for annother thread although it has already been talked about a few times before so let's not loose it in this thread............


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## Matt308 (Sep 13, 2006)

Fair enough, Lanc.


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## DIOGENIS (Sep 13, 2006)

I thought this forum was about free expression of one man's thoughts so if you don't agree with me i expect you AT LEAST to respect my right to express my self.
I definitely believe that producing atomic weapons either you are USA or USSR drove the world to a dark age, the cold war, and thats one of the tragedies.
Unless you believe that atomic wastes turn out to be manure after 20 yrs.
As for the need to use ONE A. bomb in order to end the ww2 yes, I believe it was justified.

And i think i have every right to do so.At least i am *civilised*


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## Pisis (Sep 14, 2006)

Yes, I see the point there, Diogenis.


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## DIOGENIS (Sep 14, 2006)

thx pisis, i meant no offense towards anyone


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## Pisis (Sep 14, 2006)

Yes, I knew...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 14, 2006)

DIOGENIS said:


> I thought this forum was about free expression of one man's thoughts so if you don't agree with me i expect you AT LEAST to respect my right to express my self.
> I definitely believe that producing atomic weapons either you are USA or USSR drove the world to a dark age, the cold war, and thats one of the tragedies.
> Unless you believe that atomic wastes turn out to be manure after 20 yrs.
> As for the need to use ONE A. bomb in order to end the ww2 yes, I believe it was justified.
> ...



1. As another member pointed out, this is not the place to carry out this conversation.

2. Yes, you have a right to express yourself, but just as you have this right, everyone else has a right to express themselves as well, even if they dont agree with you. 

3. Dont expect everyone to agree with you.

4. If they dont agree with you, it does not mean they are insulting you.

5. No one insulted you.

6. No one was uncivilized.


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## JCMRANGER (Sep 14, 2006)

just to jump in. In 8th grade I won my science fair with a report on aviation and there was no internet. It can help a lot but all my research was done by reading a book. I know it's quite old fashion but there are a lot more good books out there now than in 1964 and there would be no danger of the bad internet people. He also may learn something by reading and not just copy and paste as so many reports are done today. Just a suggestion. But as it was stated earlier, it's been a week so get started and enjoy the process.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 14, 2006)

I happen to agree about the Reading. I enjoy my aircraft books more than reading about them on the Internet. It is so much more to me.


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## Pisis (Sep 14, 2006)

> bad internet people.


LOL


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 14, 2006)

you guys have points about the books but i doubt he'll have many Spitfire books  i'd say i have one hell of an aviation and partly scientific library for a 16 year old  i love reading about them and the fact that if i'm not at the computer i can go to any of my books and find out anything i want, it's kinda fun searching for it too, and also it pays to check any info you find on the net against a book which tends to be more accurate...............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 15, 2006)

I have an amazing library but unfortunaly about 350 of my books are still at my mothers house in boxes until I find the time to go and get them. I only have 57 military books here at my place with only about 40 of them beeing WW2 aviation. I basically took my favorites with me when I moved and will get the rest later.


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## davparlr (Sep 15, 2006)

Susan said:


> Thanks for your help and replies but I think I'll stick with the spitfire. I've done some research and have some reading to do. I'll have more details soon.
> Tucker



Hello Susan and Tucker,

I am a North Florida native from Pensacola. The comments about the museum at the Pensacola Naval Air Station is a good one. You should make time to see it sometime. There maybe a good musuem at Eglin AFB in Fort Walton Beach too. Of course if you live in Jacksonville that is still a long way to go.

I think your selection of Spitfire is a good one. Many people have heard about it but few have a lot of detail (in America). Also, I think your best resource would be the internet since local libraries may be short of Spitfire books. You might could order a book and some people on this site could recommend some good ones.

This site does tend to get sidetracked but the knowledge available here is amazing. In fact, if you did a search on spitfire on this site, you would probably find some interesting data.

Good luck!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 15, 2006)

Exactly, we get sidetracked but somehow allways return the topic and if you just ask for info, somewhere here will be able to help and all will be happy to do so.


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## Susan (Sep 25, 2006)

I was wondering if you had any good tragedies that I could use. A lot of the information is focusing on triumphs and technical configurations of the airplane. 

Thanks! Tucker


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## pbfoot (Sep 25, 2006)

Just off hand the air battle over Dieppe


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## loomaluftwaffe (Sep 26, 2006)

I hope you're talking about the spitfire or some non american plane


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## Susan (Sep 26, 2006)

I'm focusing on the Spitfire for my project. Sorry. Tucker


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## Matt308 (Sep 26, 2006)

Anyone have any information on pilot losses of the spitfire protege used in the Snyder Trophy races? Perhaps detailing some of these daring exploits related to the pre-spit configuration with dual floats leading up the first Mk. I'm not an expert in this area of the Spit development, but surely someone here is.

What about some of the tragic loss of British Spits during the Battle of Britain intercepts? Many more are more knowledgeable than I am, but certainly there were squadrons that suffered signficant loss of attrition in that most knoble or knoble fights.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 26, 2006)

i wouldn't call the Schneider Trophy races a tragedy for the spit  in fact the races had little to do with the actual spitfire..........

and it's very hard to think of a real Spitfire Tragedy.............


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## Matt308 (Sep 26, 2006)

Aww Lanc. Are you telling him that his choice of the Spit is now the wrong choice? I would say that there are lots of tragedies in war irrespective of the tools of war. It is all how you spin it. I recognize the Schneider Trophy races did not include Spits, however the Trophy race airplane was the precursor of the Spit was what is spawned that lovely airplane. If he focuses not upon any particular tragedy associated with the Spitfire, but rather how tragic it is that such a marvel of engineering spawned from mankinds drive for greater and greater speeds resulted in the loss of life in Spitfire development (racing deaths), flight testing experimental models and ultimately by pilots on both sides of the war. That is truly tragic, to realize an engineering dream spawned from man's desire to master the natural world results in one of the worlds most efficient killing machines. This tragic irony could then be juxtaposed with the ultimate good that the Spitfire afforded the hardy people of England, the aviation community in general and ultimately the world.

Hey. Just some thoughts from across the pond.

Tucker - At some point you gonna have to start putting pen to paper. I would suggest you formulate an outline and perhaps share that for comments. That might help you and the forum participants narrow their scope and have a better understanding of your intended audience sophistication.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 26, 2006)

wait a minute how could i possibly forget the biggest spitfire tragedy- the fact that Mitchell never lived to see his machine become the legend it did!


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## Gnomey (Sep 26, 2006)

Gnomey said:


> Triumph - Great plane
> Tragedy - designer died before it saw it's full potential...


.....


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## Matt308 (Sep 26, 2006)

the lancaster kicks *** said:


> wait a minute how could i possibly forget the biggest spitfire tragedy- the fact that Mitchell never lived to see his machine become the legend it did!



There we are Lanc. Beauty.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 27, 2006)

Gnomey said:


> Gnomey said:
> 
> 
> > Triumph - Great plane
> ...




yes gnomey i know you posted it before and you may have the credit if you like  it was that that reminded me of it actually.........


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## loomaluftwaffe (Sep 27, 2006)

how about the dieppe battle, or the period after the BoB? from my book, the new Bf-109F and Fw-190s from the squadrons like JG26 kicked alot of Spitifre *** during that time


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## Gnomey (Sep 27, 2006)

the lancaster kicks *** said:


> yes gnomey i know you posted it before and you may have the credit if you like  it was that that reminded me of it actually.........


Fair enough.


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