# Passenger jet shot down over Ukraine



## Marcel (Jul 17, 2014)

Just heard that a Malasian airlines aircraft, flying from Schiphol Amsterdam has crashed in the Ukraine, it might have been shot down.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/17/us--crash-airplane-idUSKBN0FM1TU20140717


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## Shinpachi (Jul 17, 2014)

It's impossible for a civilian airliner to fly just above the battle field!


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## GrauGeist (Jul 17, 2014)

A terrible tragedy and unfortunately, the Russian commander in the Donetsk region, Igor Strelkov, claimed responsibility, saying "We warned you not to fly in our area!" shortly after the Malaysian airliner was brought down. He thought it was another Ukranian aircraft like the Ukranian AN-26 transport they shot down with a Buk system.

If this is the case, then Strelkov is in some serious trouble.


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 17, 2014)

In Fricken Credible. First they say they shot it down, not they are saying it was not them.


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## at6 (Jul 17, 2014)

Some might find this comment offensive, but Strelkov has just proven that he is leading a group of state sponsored terrorists. My sympathies to the families and loved ones on the airliner.

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## Torch (Jul 17, 2014)

Unbelievable,poor people and just what Malaysia Air needed on top of it.......This has taken a turn to real ugly......


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## GrauGeist (Jul 17, 2014)

The problem with the "separatists", is that they have access to the weapons, not the necessary electronics suite that can identify the target (FoF, etc) like the Russian or Ukrainian military (or any other military, for that matter)...

"Always be sure of your target before pulling the trigger" is just as important with a sidearm as it is with any weapon. These idiots really effed up this time...


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 17, 2014)

Man, what if it was shot down with a weapon supplied by the Russians?


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## Hiromachi (Jul 17, 2014)

Because it was. At least Ukrainian Gov claims that Separatists used Buk Missile System : Buk missile system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
To hit fast flying object at 10 000 m something like this was necessary.


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## Torch (Jul 17, 2014)

Also now saying it's possible the Russians did it and the rebels are taking the blame..


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## Marcel (Jul 17, 2014)

They're saying everything at the moment, let's wait first. 

More important: many Dutch casualties. At this moment I heard a number of 60 Dutch, but possibly many more  hundreds of people died here, from many countries. Rip and all thoughts goes to the people left behind.

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## GrauGeist (Jul 17, 2014)

As it stands, the separatists have downed several aircraft with their Russian made Buk systems. One of the systems was captured at a Ukrainian military site, but it's also said that Russia has supplied them with additional units.

There is attempts to determine the launch path of the Buk missile and there is actually evidence that it may have come from the Russian side of the Russian/Ukrainian border but the facts are not all in at the moment. In either case, the separatists did claim that they downed a Ukrainian aircraft but after the word got out that the Malaysian airliner went down, they immediately retracted their claims.


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## v2 (Jul 17, 2014)

about 80 kids on board... R.I.P.


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## Hiromachi (Jul 17, 2014)

GrauGeist said:


> In either case, the separatists did claim that they downed a Ukrainian aircraft but after the word got out that the Malaysian airliner went down, they immediately retracted their claims.



Everyone would do that. Claiming shooting down military aircraft or at least Ukrainian machine is one thing, many terrorist organisations do that when they shoot down some American helicopter or admit responsibility for some attacks.
But admitting the kill of neutral and civilian machine with many foreigners on board (especially children).
That is just ...

I dont even have words, all that poor people looking for holiday in Asia. All poor kids. This world is certainly going in a wrong direction.


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## Glider (Jul 17, 2014)

vikingBerserker said:


> In Fricken Credible. First they say they shot it down, not they are saying it was not them.


I am wiling to bet that they suddenly say it wasn't them by tomorrow morning

Edit the following has been posted by the BBC based on its own monitoring services

_20:27: BBC Monitoring reports more from the conversation between militants allegedly intercepted by the Ukrainian Security Service. 

The conversation starts with Igor Bezler, a key militant, apparently telling a Russian security official by phone that the pro-Russian militants have shot down a plane_


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 17, 2014)

80 kids? Dam...............


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## GrauGeist (Jul 17, 2014)

Hiromachi said:


> But admitting the kill of neutral and civilian machine with many foreigners on board (especially children).
> That is just ...


That's the key point right there..._they thought_ they downed a Ukrainian transport like they have done recently but started retracting their statements as soon as word got out it was not a military aircraft, but a civilian airliner.


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## Hiromachi (Jul 17, 2014)

Well, it turns out that Russian media soon after it was shot down informed that rebels shot down An-26
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BswcnovIUAEAfEO.png

So, well, I think it seems to be pretty clear case now.


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## razor1uk (Jul 17, 2014)

Frecking pro-%$^£$ militants; Russia Strong! eh! Poopholed mubbaverkers. MY (albeit virtual) commiserations and heartfelt sorrow to those unsuspecting victims. 
Well hopefully Vladimir will now have to...
stop giving them access to such hightech weaps,
stop whichever agency commanders are doing resupply without his authority
or
disavow himself of the pig-brained (sorry ..offencive to bacon) so called sepratists.

Lets hope that the IFF transponder on MAL MH17's isn't allegedly found to be 'faulty' as an excuse...

May this stupid proxy fest end sooner than later

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## Marcel (Jul 17, 2014)

At least 154 Dutch. No American casualties confirmed yet. 47 unknown.


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## Hiromachi (Jul 17, 2014)

I've heared of more than 9 British and 23 American ... but who knows really, this informational mess atm really doesnt help.


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 17, 2014)

Dam, my thoughts and prayers out to our Dutch friends as well as those not known at this time.


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## CommanderBounds (Jul 17, 2014)

Sickens me when stuff like this happens. 298 people dead at the hands of a missile they didn't even see coming.
My condolences to the families and friends of everyone aboard.


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## Gnomey (Jul 17, 2014)

Terrible to hear. My condolences to the families of those onboard.

Guess we have to wait and see what the exact details are.


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jul 17, 2014)

It does not matter what country any of the passengers on that flight were from, they did not deserve this. My thoughts go out to the families around the world who lost loved ones and friends.


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## N4521U (Jul 17, 2014)

It's never gonna stop.

They need a GD Hobby.


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## parsifal (Jul 17, 2014)

27 australians were on board that flight. Putin is saying its the fault of the ukrainian government, I presume because they allowed civilian traffic over what the separatists view as a war zone. the separatists have been claiming this as a no fly zone for weeks, and some airlines have been routing flights around the region, though Ive also seen some Civil Aviation reports that was safe to overfly.

The BUK system is basically an SA11 with updated electronics. importantly it has IFF control systems that the operators either did not know how to use, or chose to ignore and shot the aircraft dowen deliberately. Accidents do happen, as the shooting down of that Iranian airliner by a US missile demonstrates, but it certainly looks like a deliberate act of bastardry.

In my opinion, the international borders to Russia should be closed, and a complete embargo on their oil and gas sales imposed. this would cause a lot of pain in Europe, but it would also bring Ruussia to its knees very quickly. The germans, in particular, will never have the b*lls to do that.

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## gumbyk (Jul 17, 2014)

The airspace above 32,000ft was deemed safe for overflight.

If the target aircraft isn't transmitting anything, then would an IFF system work?


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## Capt. Vick (Jul 18, 2014)

This makes me sick. Mark my words, no one will pay for this.


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## Marcel (Jul 18, 2014)

The amount of casualties is higher now, not 295, but 298. The last three were babies who didn't have their own seat.  US confirms a missile launch. 
Stupid Putin and Ukraine gouvernment and the Ukraine separatists are making this into a political game. Will not give them any more credit I guess.

Casualtilist, source Maleisia airlines

Nederland 154
Maleisië 45 ( 15 crew 2 baby's)
Australia 27
Indonesia 12 ( 1 baby)
Great Britain 9
Germany 4
Belgium 4
Filipines 3
Canada 1
Unidentified: 41
Total 298

Thoughts go out to all who lost their loved ones.


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## Wildcat (Jul 18, 2014)

F*ck Putin. It angers me to think that POS will be in my country in a matter of months after his men have murdered 28 of my fellow countrymen. Your not welcome here fella...

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## swampyankee (Jul 18, 2014)

Marcel said:


> They're saying everything at the moment, let's wait first.
> 
> More important: many Dutch casualties. At this moment I heard a number of 60 Dutch, but possibly many more  hundreds of people died here, from many countries. Rip and all thoughts goes to the people left behind.



Adding to the tragedy, I just heard about a hundred passengers were HIV/AIDS researchers, which is significant portion ofthat community.


For yet another example of Putin's perfidy, he's saying it's Ukraine's fault, as it happened over their territory. The same territory that he's making sure that Ukraine can't control. Maybe he didn't pull the trigger, but he's armed the separatists, used his military to prevent Ukraine from dealing with them, and he has been their biggest cheerleader.

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## Marcel (Jul 18, 2014)

Dutch casualties went up to 189. Hope no-one I know, although it is bad for everybody. My thoughts go out to the families


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## at6 (Jul 18, 2014)

I normally try to maintain a neutral mental position when I see the horrid tragedy that is our world. However, it might be quite enjoyable to hold Putin down, feed him 20 bowls of flaming hot Texas chili, lock him in a portapotty, then wait for the launch of the "Pootin Putin".

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## vikingBerserker (Jul 18, 2014)

NICE!


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## Hartmann52 (Jul 18, 2014)

Friends, all Ukraine mourns dead. Terrorists, who made it will, not have mercy ...
There will be no forgiveness and Putin, who gave them weapons...
R.I.P......
I am sorry for my bad english

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## GrauGeist (Jul 18, 2014)

That's too much effort for a rotten, corrupt a-hole like him.

They should simply do to him like they did to Mussolini or Ceaușescu and be done with it.

And Hartmann52, not to worry, your English is just fine.


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## Hartmann52 (Jul 18, 2014)

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HJmev5xg0_
Our military believes that this missile system was hit by Boeing. And now it urgently Russian terrorists hide
*GrauGeist*, thanks


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## at6 (Jul 18, 2014)

Hartmann52, we all mourn the dead from such inhuman actions. Your English is 1000% better than my Ukrainian as I only speak English and very little German plus a few Mexican obscenities. My prayers for your nation and your people.


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## Hartmann52 (Jul 18, 2014)

*at6*, thank you. Russian its actions reaffirmed old, folk truth: a true friend is known in trouble. 
Only the price for the reminder this time a very large...


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## Marcel (Jul 18, 2014)

Hartmann52 said:


> Friends, all Ukraine mourns dead. Terrorists, who made it will, not have mercy ...
> There will be no forgiveness and Putin, who gave them weapons...
> R.I.P......
> I am sorry for my bad english



No problem with your english Hartmann. Hope your country will solve it's problems real soon.


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## marconi (Jul 18, 2014)

There is an official youtube channel of SBU, ukrainian inept son of KGB, were they keep radio intercepts of rebels.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyZYgSXdyw_

And this one shows that russians brought Grail in Ukraine one day before the incident:

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVAOTWPmMM4_

Yeah, I know, they might be fakes, but previous intercepts were quite accurate.


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 18, 2014)

So they made a claim that Ukraine is using Malaysian 777's to carry spies? My 10 year old could have come up with a better and more logical story.

What a bunch of fricken idiots.


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## GrauGeist (Jul 18, 2014)

Oh and the conspiracy theorists are going batsh!t crazy over this one, now...with the CIA being the preferred culprit.

One of them alleges that the CIA has a secret base near the Donestk region causing all these problems, trying to frame poor little Vlad and the downing of the Maylasian airliner is the latest "criminal provocation".

It's a little bit scary knowing that these people walk amongst us...

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## at6 (Jul 18, 2014)

Conspiracy kooks show up every time. I would invite them over for a Cholla enema but they would probably say that CIA provided the cactus.


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 18, 2014)

Now that would leave a mark!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 19, 2014)

What a tragedy.

Apparantly they claim they thought it was a Ukranian military cargo plane. If you cam't positively identify your target, you don't shoot.


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## GrauGeist (Jul 19, 2014)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> ...Apparantly they claim they thought it was a Ukranian military cargo plane. If you cam't positively identify your target, you don't shoot.


That is the basic rule of ANY weapon: Know your target before pulling the trigger.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 19, 2014)

GrauGeist said:


> That is the basic rule of ANY weapon: Know your target before pulling the trigger.



I agree. Apparantly these ignorant fools never got the message.


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## s1chris (Jul 19, 2014)

RIP to all those lost.

Such a disgraceful act of terrorism that can't go unpunished any longer.


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## marconi (Jul 19, 2014)

vikingBerserker said:


> So they made a claim that Ukraine is using Malaysian 777's to carry spies? My 10 year old could have come up with a better and more logical story.
> 
> What a bunch of fricken idiots.



That guy is a commader of don cossacks, you can't expect logic from someone who does historical reconstruction 24/7. Look at his clothes!
As to conspiracy theories that have poped up, my favorite is the one that claims Ukrainian forces were trying to shoot down Putin's plane but missed and hit MAL plane instead.


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## B-17engineer (Jul 19, 2014)

Pretty tragic.... Glad our leader made some empty vague statements ....


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## Wayne Little (Jul 19, 2014)




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## Marcel (Jul 19, 2014)

The separatists are showing their worst. Denying access for the rescue teams, taking away bodies, playing with the victims' belongings. All very bad. We still have 193 bodies there and we want them back.


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## GrauGeist (Jul 19, 2014)

I agree, Marcel...this is just one big effing mess that seems to be never ending...

They were showing some of the seperatists stepping over victim's bodies while rummaging through luggage and handbags.

Absolutely ing


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## marconi (Jul 19, 2014)

I've heard they're looking for victims' credit cards so if anyone knows relatives of passengers tell them to block their bank accounts.


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## Shinpachi (Jul 19, 2014)

Soviet soldiers preferred wrist watches as many as possible they could found in the summer of 1945.
My deep condolences to the victims and their families.

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## Marcel (Jul 20, 2014)

It's getting worse. The rebels forced the rescue teams to give up all bodies. So they will keep all bodies of the casualties in an unknown place. Getting really pissed about this. No respect for the dead, especially since these are all innocent victims of their stupidity. It's outrageous!


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## Hartmann52 (Jul 20, 2014)

When Europe already understand that Putin's Russia - evil? 
How many more people must die, that European leaders realized that this evil must be fought? 
When it comes to the Frau Ribbentrop-Merkel and other politicians who like Putin?


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## Hartmann52 (Jul 20, 2014)

*Marcel*, do not be fooled and call a spade a spade - this is not the insurgents - this is terrorists. These are not people who are armed and sent here to kill Putin civilians Ukraine.


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## michaelmaltby (Jul 20, 2014)

"...When it comes to the Frau Ribbentrop-Merkel and other politicians who like Putin?"

I agree that this is state-_sponsored_ Terrorism and we need to call it for what it is .... but .... Putin has done his '_cause_' more harm than good ... the deleted tweets and posts that can't be deleted because they were captured tell the real story. F*ck you hooliganism by cocky Putin-supported ethnic Russians ... coal miners ... that's the instrument of Mr. KGB's foreign policy ..... huge miscalculation, IMHO.

But don't be too hard on Frau Merkel, H, she knows she's walking a tight rope on moral credibility on _this_ .... but that's the price one pays for having a bully as your gas/energy DEALER ...  . You guys in Ukraine are blessed with an abundance of tight oil and gas .... are you fracking it? Get started. Independence, my friend, is the cornerstone of geo-political courage


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## Hartmann52 (Jul 20, 2014)

*michaelmaltby*, granted, the path to true independence is never simple. In history there are many examples of this. This we shall now try to understand, but the price for this understanding is too high ...


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 20, 2014)

Stealing the bodies of the victims just makes them look even more guiltier. What a bunch of <bleeping> thugs.


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## Hartmann52 (Jul 20, 2014)

vikingBerserker said:


> Stealing the bodies of the victims just makes them look even more guiltier. What a bunch of <bleeping> thugs.


Them in this situation has nothing to lose


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## Marcel (Jul 20, 2014)

But we do. I'm sorry for your country, Hartmann having to deal with these terrorists. Good luck with that. 
Hope somebody will step in and solve this particular case. We have a couple of thousands mourning Dutchmen, Australians and other non-involved citizens waiting for their loved ones to go home. That's not a political statement, but an emotional fact. These bodies are no tools for freakin "idependance fighters" nor for Russian dictators to use in their stupid politics.

And in this situation those guys have everything to loose. If they immediately would have said "I'm sorry we made a mistake" and then fully cooperate with the international teams, then they would have gotten some credit. Now they loose the last piece of sympathy they had in the international world.

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## Hiromachi (Jul 20, 2014)

Hartmann52 said:


> When Europe already understand that Putin's Russia - evil?
> How many more people must die, that European leaders realized that this evil must be fought?
> When it comes to the Frau Ribbentrop-Merkel and other politicians who like Putin?



It's not about being good or evil, but politics and economy. EU (particularly Germany and France) needs Russia since they can provide natural resources so needed for western industry. So making any harsh moves may cut those supplies and hit directly the politicians, they would be the ones responsible for another recession. Besides, Germany for 2 decades are working on close partnership with Russia.

As you can see Ukraine is in a pretty bad position since it doesnt have anything EU needs, yet brings more problems. And good excuse for western politicians is that Всеукраїнське об'єднання «Свобода» is very nationalist, in some respects openly admits their relation to Українська Повстанська Армія and is not ashamed of amount of massacres they did, even proud of it. 


Only shame that even death of civilians, of tourists and kids is still not enough to take some action.


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## Hartmann52 (Jul 20, 2014)

*Marcel*, thank you. I believe that in the end the truth will be behind us.
And the more grief for me as far back as 2012 we lived in Kharkov fans Netherlands national football team. And we love these fun, kind and open people.
That's for two years, all the world has changed...

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## Hartmann52 (Jul 20, 2014)

*Hiromachi*, I think so (sorry if my opinion is not the same as yours): every country has the political organizations of the extreme right there pushing them in Poland, which, incidentally, there is the birthplace of my ancestors. And they also dream of restoring Rzeczpospolita "from sea to sea." I professor of history at the University of Ukraine police. And even I, with my training, I can not assess the many events of the 20th century.
Especially, now the question is - if we forget all past grievances, to resist in the face of common aggressor. A okkkupirovav Ukraine, Putin will not stop.
Draw your own conclusions ...


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## GrauGeist (Jul 20, 2014)

An interesting video was shared with me that shows the Russian news reporting on the rebels "downing a Ukrainian An-26 military transport" and then a little while later, the SAME news anchor reports an entirely different situation, where it was now a civilian jet downed by the Ukrainian military. The video has English subtitles, by the way.

I mean, seriously, how stupid do they think people are?


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjUpRD6yMYg_


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## Hartmann52 (Jul 20, 2014)

*GrauGeist*, Russian - they are .... They have seven Fridays of the week ...

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## nuuumannn (Jul 20, 2014)

> I mean, seriously, how stupid do they think people are?



Potemkin Village; The Russian government wants you to believe what it wants you to believe.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 21, 2014)

The more I watch this, the more sick I become. The separatists that control the site should be ashamed of themselves. Not just because they just killed almost 300 innocent lives but because of their treatment of the bodies. I am appalled. They are looting the valuables that rightfully belongs to the families of the victims. They allowed the remains to rot in the summer heat.

The people responsible for this, *no matter how high it goes* should hang.

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## Lucky13 (Jul 21, 2014)

Hanging is too good for them, they should be lynched and then some.....

Stay safe and sound Hartmann!


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 21, 2014)

A-Fricken-Men!


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## Lucky13 (Jul 21, 2014)

Well, you've got to agree, there isn't much of a difference, is there....easy mistake to make...(sarcasm)...

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## Marcel (Jul 21, 2014)

Finally, Dutch forensic researches are now at the spot where the bodies are. It's a cooled train in Torez. Hopefully they'll be able to get them out of there and bring them home.

Problem is now that it seems the Ukraine government is trying to retake Torez, so there's a lot of fighting going on. This is from the rebels, but the fact that the government doesn't want to comment is telling. Seems like both parties are not free of having their own political agenda. I'm voting for stationing a couple of Dutch Marines there to guard the bodies, but who am I?


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## Hartmann52 (Jul 21, 2014)

Slightly off the right information - Ukraine provided the train for transportation of the victims, but the terrorists do not allow him to his destination.


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## stona (Jul 21, 2014)

Marcel said:


> I'm voting for stationing a couple of Dutch Marines there to guard the bodies, but who am I?



They'd have to do a better job than at Srebrenica.

More seriously it is an appalling atrocity and now, inevitably, the victims are being used as pawns in an unpleasant political game. Whoever was responsible, be it the Russian backed factions and ultimately Putin or the Kiev government, the one thing you can be sure of is that nobody will be brought to book for this outrage.

I just feel desperately sorry for the victims and their loved ones.

Steve

Steve


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## Marcel (Jul 21, 2014)

Those were not marines. And I'm not talking a VN force here. I'll not start a discussion on Sebrenica, which is much more complex than people imagine. 
But I'm of course not serious about the marines, way to sensitive.


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## drgondog (Jul 21, 2014)

Here is a post of the shoot down that the Ukraine 'Separatists" weren't able to yank in time.. Several sources leaked from CIA state that a.) SA 11 launched from within the 'Separatist' MLR, b.) SIGINT conversation between Russian Colonel and Strelkov diuscussing the identity and possibility of 'grave mistake' minutes after the 777 crashed.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQzMv89eeo_ 

Looks to me like the first couple frames show right engine/nacelle falling while the 777 maintains level wings - but fire is spreading while pilot is still controlling in descent - then last segment near tree coverage seems to indicate wing fell off before the pilot could get it on the ground.

Putin can rant all he wants but his hand caught in the cookie jar removing all significant evidence plus major structure such as the right wing and engine (probably a couple of miles away from crash site). The EU won't escalate the sanctions and Obama doesn't have the stones to cut off US Financial markets from ALL Russian economic sectors.

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## Glider (Jul 21, 2014)

I am willing to bet a fair amount that the voice recorder will never be handed over in one piece as that is likely to have some incriminating words on it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 21, 2014)

stona said:


> They'd have to do a better job than at Srebrenica.
> 
> More seriously it is an appalling atrocity and now, inevitably, the victims are being used as pawns in an unpleasant political game. Whoever was responsible, be it the Russian backed factions and ultimately Putin or the Kiev government, the one thing you can be sure of is that nobody will be brought to book for this outrage.
> 
> ...



That is another terrible aspect, that both sides Ukraine/Russia are allowing this to morally decay for their political gain.

I wanna spit...


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## michaelmaltby (Jul 21, 2014)

_alive ._... all the way down ... horrible way to die


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## Marcel (Jul 21, 2014)

Dutch citizens have send a petition to the government asking to send in the army to get the bodies back. Will probably not happen, but just to illustrate the feelings here in The Netherlands.
It is a national disaster and we don't have patience with anybody.

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## Hiromachi (Jul 21, 2014)

Hartmann52 said:


> *Hiromachi*, I think so (sorry if my opinion is not the same as yours): every country has the political organizations of the extreme right



Yes, indeed. America has a Tea Party, Poland has ONR, etc. I'm just pointing it since in this particular case Всеукраїнське об'єднання «Свобода» doesnt publicly reject the actions of Українська Повстанська Армія, and what is more in quite a few interviews they openly supported them. Denying Волинська різанина is a big step backwards in public relations.
Especially for Poles, Hungarians and Russians this is a delicate matter.

I see very few dreaming of that Poland, it is now only part of past.


Well yes, creating one front against Russia would be a good idea. But not only for Poland or Lithuania. There is also rest of EU which should stay in same line. And they one. What intersts has Spain there ? Or France ? Or even Germany.
Its just a politics. EU wants to make business with Russia since both sides need other. And of course Russia will use it to their advantage.

Anywya, I dont think discussing it will change alot. Politicians will use it in their own purpose and case in 2-3 weeks will not be a main topic anymore.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 21, 2014)

drgondog said:


> Here is a post of the shoot down that the Ukraine 'Separatists" weren't able to yank in time.. Several sources leaked from CIA state that a.) SA 11 launched from within the 'Separatist' MLR, b.) SIGINT conversation between Russian Colonel and Strelkov diuscussing the identity and possibility of 'grave mistake' minutes after the 777 crashed.
> 
> 
> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQzMv89eeo_
> ...




That is not video of MH17. It was uploaded on the 6th of June...

I believe thats the AN-26 they shot down earlier.


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## bobbysocks (Jul 21, 2014)

i wish reagan was alive and in the white house.....

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## at6 (Jul 21, 2014)

As much as I liked Reagan when it came to style, he lacked any real substance as a president. I doubt that he would do much more than sound presidential.


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## marconi (Jul 21, 2014)

drgondog said:


> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQzMv89eeo_




This is An-26(some say AN-30) allegedly shot down by the new 9К333 "Verba" over Slovyansk about a month ago.


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## l'Omnivore Sobriquet (Jul 21, 2014)

Terrorists are the ones who pack tens of people into a government building, round it, purposely set it afire and machine gun all those who try to escape.
If the Maidan coup crew stopped heavy shelling their own people, on a daily basis, such horrible deeds as throwing a missile into a overflying civilian liner wouldn't happen.
I hope Putin retains his cool again.

Long live democracy.


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## Hartmann52 (Jul 21, 2014)

*l'Omnivore Sobriquet*, as I understand it, you approve of the action of the Russian government?


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## at6 (Jul 21, 2014)

Hartmann52, there might be a little misunderstanding the previous post. I find his statement confusing but do not get the feeling that he is approving Putin"s actions. Remember, in Russia, you can vote anyone as long as it is Putin or Medvedev depending on which one is running for president. Will anyone face consequences for the shoot down? Highly unlikely as the weenies continue a policy of appeasement.


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## GrauGeist (Jul 21, 2014)

Hartmann52, I also understood l'Omnivore Sobriquet to be critical of the Russians...


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## swampyankee (Jul 21, 2014)

at6 said:


> As much as I liked Reagan when it came to style, he lacked any real substance as a president. I doubt that he would do much more than sound presidential.



What did he do about KAL007? A few condemnatory speeches, and pulled Aeroflot's landing permits for the US.


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## GrauGeist (Jul 21, 2014)

In the case of downing a civilian aircraft, seriously, what can a President actually do?

Should he hop AF1 and go over personally beat someone's ass? Should he swarm that country's borders and leave the surface of the earth scorched? Maybe shoot down one of theirs as payback? Sounds nice but would be pretty much counter-productive.

There is a limit to what any Prime Minister, President or other head of state can actually do. Public comdemnation, sanctions, assisting the victims...these things can be done...expediting an inquiry, assisting in investigations with intel and/or manpower, these things they can do and will most likely produce faster and more positive results...

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## Marcel (Jul 22, 2014)

Train is on it's way. Still takes way too long, but at last it seems that people get reasonable finally. Let them come home!
Also the "black boxes" have been handed over. Hope that some work can be done now.


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## at6 (Jul 22, 2014)

Marcel said:


> Train is on it's way. Still takes way too long, but at last it seems that people get reasonable finally. Let them come home!
> Also the "black boxes" have been handed over. Hope that some work can be done now.



Finally. Hope they can recover the rest of the victims soon and hopefully the recorders haven't been tampered with although it is doubtful that anything useful can be learned from them.


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## at6 (Jul 22, 2014)

bobbysocks said:


> i wish reagan was alive and in the white house.....



Remember "Reaganomics"? The trickle down theory meant a torrent upward. The deregulation rush that lead to the meltdown under Bush due to corporate greed and the "American dream" becoming more like the "American nightmare". Every body's economy has suffered from so much misguided thinking. Regulations enacted during the terms of FDR were designed to prevent what we've been experiencing.

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## GrauGeist (Jul 22, 2014)

at6 said:


> Remember "Reaganomics"? The trickle down theory meant a torrent upward. The deregulation rush that lead to the meltdown under Bush due to corporate greed and the "American dream" becoming more like the "American nightmare". Every body's economy has suffered from so much misguided thinking. Regulations enacted during the terms of FDR were designed to prevent what we've been experiencing.


That's one spin of the big picture, and not a single bit of it belongs in this discussion.

So we had better stop the political bullsh!t right now, or else the mods will clamp down hard on this thread.

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## Marcel (Jul 22, 2014)

GrauGeist said:


> That's one spin of the big picture, and not a single bit of it belongs in this discussion.
> 
> So we had better stop the political bullsh!t right now, or else the mods will clamp down hard on this thread.



Yes please.

Train left Donesk this morning for Charkov. From there they will be flown to here where forensic experts will do the identification.


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## michaelmaltby (Jul 22, 2014)

The frightening thing about this whole affair is that it is - as presented by the captive Media in Russia to the Russian people - POPULAR. Some oligarchs have lost a few billion but the average Ivan isn't hurting ... and Putin's ratings are good on the street, if not the boardroom.

What to do ...?

For starters I'd like the western media to start monitoring and showing news of this to viewers in the west..... we need to know the distortion behind Putin's 'popularity' .... I'm thinking specifically of reports by Russian media that the victims were already dead ... that the incident was manufactured as evidenced by all the shiny new passports .... That gives you some measure of what you can spin on TV with a little government co-operation/intimidation.


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## stona (Jul 22, 2014)

michaelmaltby said:


> What to do ...?



Since there is no military option then a meaningful political one needs to be found. The only way for this to happen is for the EU and USA to start singing from the same hymn sheet. At the moment the USA, UK, Australia, Netherlands and a few others are pushing for more stringent sanctions but within the EU (which obviously doesn't include the aforementioned Australians) there is no will to impose them. The Germans in particular have their own vested interests in NOT being too hard on Russia. It's about energy and trade, nobody wants to damage their own fragile economies as they look like they might just be recovering. Whilst this disjointed and uncoordinated action from the EU and USA continues Putin and the Russians will continue laughing up their sleeves and continue doing what they want. Has everyone forgotten the annexation of most of the Crimea already?
Cheers
Steve


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## michaelmaltby (Jul 22, 2014)

"....Has everyone forgotten the annexation of most of the Crimea already?"

I'm afraid to answer that ... however, Canada's position as stated this week is that the shoot-down is _a direct consequence_ of Putin's occupation and de-stabilization campaign.

Given the energy consequences of dependent Europe turning on their '_dealer_' I don't hold out much hope in the short term ... but it's time to make Putin a pariah.


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## stona (Jul 22, 2014)

michaelmaltby said:


> Canada's position as stated this week is that the shoot-down is _a direct consequence_ of Putin's occupation and de-stabilization campaign.



That reflects the position of the EU and other 'western' allies. The problem is, as demonstrated by the Russians in the Crimea, they don't care what position we take. Standing in a parliament or equivalent body making statements doesn't hurt or bother the Russians in any way. Nor does imposing travel bans on a few oligarchs or freezing a few bank accounts.

The EU is not in a position to impose any meaningful sanctions as some of its most powerful members are more worried about the effects on their own economies than what might happen to the Russians. The Russians aren't stupid, they are well aware of this. It makes statements and threats from whatever the equivalent of the despatch box in the UK parliament is in others, just so much hot air.

Some politicians in our western democracies are deluding themselves that their puny measures have in some way constrained the Russians and the militias they fund and support in the Ukraine. They haven't and at the end of this game the Russians may very well end up with exactly what they wanted, just as in the Crimea.

Cheers

Steve


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## michaelmaltby (Jul 22, 2014)

"....They haven't and at the end of this game the Russians may very well end up with exactly what they wanted,"

Which is what, IYCO ...?


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## Marcel (Jul 22, 2014)

Tomorrow the first victims will land here. Aircraft from the Netherlands an Australia will fly them here. A Belgian airplane has fetched the black boxes and will bring them to the UK. Great international effort. Hope these bastards will not shoot these aircraft down.....


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## stona (Jul 22, 2014)

_"....They haven't and at the end of this game the Russians may very well end up with exactly what they wanted,"

Which is what, IYCO ...? _

Russian control or annexation of the Crimea, eastern and southern Ukraine. These regions would eventually become part of the Russian Federation. All are regions with substantial Russian speaking majorities and regions with many cultural and political ties to Russia/Moscow rather than Kiev/Ukraine. That's what Putin wants and I believe he will eventually get it. All the bluff and bluster from various western capitals, including yours and mine, is recognised for what it is in Moscow. 

Our politicians have to sound tough in the face of an atrocity like this, they want to be re-elected. Putin doesn't have to worry about such niceties and in any case his objectives are popular with the vast majority of Russians, and Russian Ukrainians. This last point is glossed over in the western media, as it was in the case of the Crimea and just like the results of the Crimean referendum on federation with Russia were. 

Cheers

Steve

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## GrauGeist (Jul 22, 2014)

A thought that has crossed my mind, is what has happened to the Black Boxes while in Russian/rebel possession?

As designed, they should contain intact (readable) information even under the harshest conditions (extreme impact, submersion, fire, etc.). I truly hope I am wrong, but I suspect the Black Boxes will allegedly be "damaged" beyond use, so there's not recoverable information that can be used to indicate what happened.


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## Marcel (Jul 22, 2014)

We'll see Dave. Nothing we can do now. I don't think all this speculation helps. For me, I'm glad we retrieved probably most of the bodies. When they are here, we will be relieved. Hopefully the investigation will make clear what happened and then proper actions can be taken.


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## at6 (Jul 22, 2014)

GrauGeist said:


> That's one spin of the big picture, and not a single bit of it belongs in this discussion.
> 
> So we had better stop the political bullsh!t right now, or else the mods will clamp down hard on this thread.



You're right GrauGeist. My bad and while I never meant it to be, I offer my apologies for the way it came out.

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## GrauGeist (Jul 22, 2014)

Perhaps I am getting cynical in my old age, Marcel, that's why the thought of tampering was the first thing I thought of. This whole mess in the Ukraine is out of old playbooks, repeating over and over again through the ages.

The names have changed, but the places and the suffering of people have not. This is something as a society, we never seem to learn.

The only comfort (if there is such a thing) is that your countrymen were recovered, will be back on home soil and laid to rest soon.


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## Hartmann52 (Jul 22, 2014)

stona said:


> _Russian control or annexation of the Crimea, eastern and southern Ukraine. These regions would eventually become part of the Russian Federation. All are regions with substantial Russian speaking majorities and regions with many cultural and political ties to Russia/Moscow rather than Kiev/Ukraine. That's what Putin wants and I believe he will eventually get it. All the bluff and bluster from various western capitals, including yours and mine, is recognised for what it is in Moscow. _


_

*stona*, Never it will not!
Crimea - Ukraine is. South East - it is Ukraine. Only in this way and not otherwise!_


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## stona (Jul 22, 2014)

Hartmann52 said:


> *stona*, Never it will not!
> Crimea - Ukraine is. South East - it is Ukraine. Only in this way and not otherwise!



Wanna bet?

Steve


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## GrauGeist (Jul 22, 2014)

stona said:


> ...All are regions with substantial Russian speaking majorities and regions with many cultural and political ties to Russia/Moscow rather than Kiev/Ukraine. That's what Putin wants and I believe he will eventually get it. All the bluff and bluster from various western capitals, including yours and mine, is recognised for what it is in Moscow...


I might mention that there are Russian speaking populations in all of the former Eastern Bloc countries (Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, etc.) but this does not give Putin the green light to just wander in and claim that as his own territory.

There is a large Russian speaking population in the Sacramento area here in California, left over from the early fur hunter days (same with Alaska)...should Putin decide to annex Sacramento for the greater good of Mother Russia and her children?

What's at issue here, is that the Ukraine is a sovereign nation and nibbling away at it through various means, using the art and pretense of "Lebensraum" just can't be permitted in the 21st century. And at what point is enough, enough? It took how long for the appeasement of Hitler's "protecting" German speaking populations before things got out of hand?


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## stona (Jul 22, 2014)

The Ukraine as a 'sovereign nation' is a 1990s construct. It has a long and complicated history including subordination to various other powers at various times, most recently the USSR.

I don't believe that the Russians have any right to march in and annex any part of the Ukraine or Crimea, but they can and either will or already have. Who is going to stop them? The Kiev government?

I'm just pointing out the obvious.....realpolitik.

Steve

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## Hartmann52 (Jul 22, 2014)

*stona*, there is no real policy - there is a crazy Russian Fuhrer. If we follow your logic, Kaliningrad should be given to Germany, the Far East - Japan and China.
Knowingly gave Ukraine in 1996 nuclear weapons in exchange for a piece of paper called incomprehensible Budapest Memorandum ...


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## Marcel (Jul 22, 2014)

Oh please, maybe you guys can start a different thread about the 'Russian Fuhrer'. I have my ideas about this, too, but for me not the time, not the place.

Tomorrow The Netherlands will have a 'national day of mourning'. At 16.00h CET, when the first aircraft lands, we'll have 1 minute of silence for the fallen victims. Let us all think of those who died and those left behind.

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## stona (Jul 22, 2014)

Hartmann52 said:


> *stona*, there is no real policy - there is a crazy Russian Fuhrer. If we follow your logic, Kaliningrad should be given to Germany, the Far East - Japan and China.
> Knowingly gave Ukraine in 1996 nuclear weapons in exchange for a piece of paper called incomprehensible Budapest Memorandum ...



It's not my logic and I don't believe that the Russian Federation has any right to the territories in the Crimea and Ukraine. My question remains, who is going to stop the Russians from taking them? Nobody seems to have an answer to that, least of all western leaders and that is why I believe that Russia will get away with it.
I base my opinion on a rational analysis of recent history, has anyone got an alternative?
Cheers
Steve


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## Hartmann52 (Jul 22, 2014)

*Marcel*, Sorry for the off-topic. But all these events are closely linked - Russia directed, armed and trained the terrorists who are responsible for the death of nearly 300 people. It does not matter - it's a great policy or geopolitics, Putin is to blame the deaths of all those people.
Once again, sorry


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## michaelmaltby (Jul 22, 2014)

CUT OFF PUTIN'S WORLD VISA card!

[h/t jm]


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## bobbysocks (Jul 22, 2014)

GrauGeist said:


> I might mention that there are Russian speaking populations in all of the former Eastern Bloc countries (Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, etc.) but this does not give Putin the green light to just wander in and claim that as his own territory.
> 
> There is a large Russian speaking population in the Sacramento area here in California, left over from the early fur hunter days (same with Alaska)...should Putin decide to annex Sacramento for the greater good of Mother Russia and her children?
> 
> What's at issue here, is that the Ukraine is a sovereign nation and nibbling away at it through various means, using the art and pretense of "Lebensraum" just can't be permitted in the 21st century. And at what point is enough, enough? It took how long for the appeasement of Hitler's "protecting" German speaking populations before things got out of hand?



i had to laugh because i was thinking the same thing...but in a different location. there is a huge russian speaking population in cleveland, oh.....but we might let him have that. the long and the short of it is who ever has the most leverage will get what they want barring someone drawing a line in the sand and putting powder in their muskets....which is leverage too but i dont see that as a viable option on a large scale. whatever the outcome is we will only know a portion of the deal as most it will be cut behind closed doors and not for public consumption.


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## swampyankee (Jul 22, 2014)

I, too worry about the countries bordering Russia, especially those with enclaves of Russian-speakers. Even more so, those countries that were, until recently, Soviet, and, before Brest-Litovsk, part of the Russian Empire. Lenin didn't conquer Ukraine, Georgia, etc: he _re-conquered_ them. Some of these were conquered as late as the 19th Century.

I worry less about countries which don't border Russia.

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## at6 (Jul 22, 2014)

michaelmaltby said:


> CUT OFF PUTIN'S WORLD VISA card!
> 
> [h/t jm]



Along with something that he would really miss.


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## Marcel (Jul 23, 2014)

Hartmann52 said:


> *Marcel*, Sorry for the off-topic. But all these events are closely linked - Russia directed, armed and trained the terrorists who are responsible for the death of nearly 300 people. It does not matter - it's a great policy or geopolitics, Putin is to blame the deaths of all those people.
> Once again, sorry


I understand that, but that can be done in another thread, so moderators can close that one if it becomes too political. My intention with this thread was not a political discussion.

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## stona (Jul 23, 2014)

michaelmaltby said:


> CUT OFF PUTIN'S WORLD VISA card!
> 
> [h/t jm]



At the moment the sanctions don't even amount to that. 
They amount to travel bans and asset freezes imposed on some of Putin's cronies. I bet the Russians are shaking in their boots. Yesterday, as I predicted, the EU fell well short of imposing so called phase three sanctions. Instead it agreed to prepare by Thursday a list of possible options, including a potential arms embargo, limits on dual-technology sales and some undefined measures targeting the energy and financial sectors. Again, the Russians will be quaking in their boots at the prospect of EU officials preparing such a list. Even these sanctions are not going to be imposed, some watered down version may eventually gain a majority acceptance.

There is a common misconception that European borders are somehow set in stone. This is not so. Even a cursory examination of maps from the recent past, say 19th and 20th centuries, will show just how much they change.

Can anyone see a scenario in which at least some Ukrainian territory along the 1991 border does not join the Crimea, falling under Russian control? If you can I'd love to hear it.

Steve


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## Hartmann52 (Jul 23, 2014)

International Airport "Kharkiv" ceremony of farewell to the dead in a plane crash "Malaysian Airlines" near Donetsk.
On the runway in a number of the Kharkiv airport installed several coffins. Around them stood guard of honor cadets.
Today in the Netherlands sent the first batch of bodies. On the runway prepared for this two transport aircraft.
According to the head of the Netherland expert committee Ian Thunder, just today plan to send 40 tel. In one of the planes they were placed 24 in the other - 16.
At a farewell ceremony attended by representatives of the Netherlands, Malaysia, Canada, Australia, USA. Diplomats in turn made ​​with words of condolence. Held a minute's silence.
After a minute of silence, an honor guard raised his coffins on the plane. The first aircraft with the remains of those killed in the crash took off liner.

R.I.P....

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## Marcel (Jul 23, 2014)

The first aircraft has landed at Eindhoven airport. At 16.00h we'll be silent thinking of those who lost their lives and those who were left behind. Great to see the unity in this nation, dealing with this tragedy.

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## Marcel (Jul 23, 2014)

The atmosphere here at 16.00 was impressive. Churchbells ringing and then the silence. 

The first 40 bodies arrived at the kazerne (=army camp) at Hilversum half an hour ago. There they will be stored in cooled containers and the identification will take place. The 1.5h drive from Eindhoven to Hilversum was very emotional with lots off people along the road and people throwing flowers. These convoys will go on for 3 days, hopefully on friday the last one. We're still not sure how many bodies were really recovered. Ukrain sources say 282, our own people say "at least 200".

Big thanks go to our Australian friendes who help us, providing a C17 plane and also further cooperating in our difficult mission to get all the victims out of there.

One note of admiration for our minister of foreign affairs who is putting much effort in this. Here is his speech, 2 days ago at the UN. A true representative of our nation. 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcGCBHNcKyI_

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## vikingBerserker (Jul 23, 2014)

Man, that was powerful.


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## Wildcat (Jul 24, 2014)

Saw the ramp ceremony on the news tonight in the Netherlands, very moving stuff and a big well done to our Dutch friends for finally showing some dignity and respect to these victims. Was proud to see the RAAF C-17 there as-well.

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## Wayne Little (Jul 24, 2014)

Wildcat said:


> Saw the ramp ceremony on the news tonight in the Netherlands, very moving stuff and a big well done to our Dutch friends for finally showing some dignity and respect to these victims. Was proud to see the RAAF C-17 there as-well.


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## michaelmaltby (Jul 24, 2014)

I agree with the following analysis ... but it may not be _specific_ enough for some

If Putin isn?t punished, Europe risks a wider war - The Globe and Mail

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## Marcel (Jul 24, 2014)




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## vikingBerserker (Jul 24, 2014)

I cannot even comprehend the feeling of being there in person to see that.


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## Torch (Jul 24, 2014)

Sad.................................


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## Marcel (Jul 24, 2014)



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## pbehn (Jul 25, 2014)

Very heartening to see some dignity being restored to the deceased and bereaved in very difficult circumstances. Some of the statements by politicians has have been nauseating I wish they would belt up until they have real hard facts to discuss.

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## Marcel (Jul 25, 2014)

Today the 3rd day of victims being flown in. 
The amazing thing is that they are transported over 100 km from Eindhoven to Hilversum. And every day, up until now, so 3 days already, thousands of people stand at the side of those 100 km, watching, throwing flowers, crying and applauding. There is not a kilometre on that road without people during those trips. It's hearth warming, impressive. Don't know how to describe it. It's really amazing. This disaster touches the people more than anything in the last 20 years.

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## Gnomey (Jul 25, 2014)

Great to see the respect being delivered by the people. No less than is deserved.


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## Timppa (Jul 27, 2014)

There is a few Finnish proverbs:
"Punainen on kaakonkulma, tulta, verta ennustaa”
(Red is the south eastern corner, predicting fire and blood)

And
"Ryssä on ryssä vaikka voissa paistais"
(Russian is a russian even if he is fried on butter).

And what my mother told me, when it was very cold:
"Kylmää kun ryssän helvetissä"
( Cold as in russian hell).

All my life I have tried to be without prejudice about Russians , but now I'm beginning to think, that all these proverbs, dating decades and centuries old , may have some thruth after all.

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## Njaco (Jul 27, 2014)

Marcel said:


> Today the 3rd day of victims being flown in.
> The amazing thing is that they are transported over 100 km from Eindhoven to Hilversum. And every day, up until now, so 3 days already, thousands of people stand at the side of those 100 km, watching, throwing flowers, crying and applauding. There is not a kilometre on that road without people during those trips. It's hearth warming, impressive. Don't know how to describe it. It's really amazing. This disaster touches the people more than anything in the last 20 years.




That says alot about your country Marcel


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 27, 2014)

Njaco said:


> That says alot about your country Marcel



Yeah here in the US, people would probably just complain about the inconvenience the interstates being shut down for the procession would cause.


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 27, 2014)

You know there would be some idiots that would just do that.


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## Marcel (Jul 28, 2014)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Yeah here in the US, people would probably just complain about the inconvenience the interstates being shut down for the procession would cause.



Oh, there probably are some here as well, but I don't think they even dare to speak up. 

Glad the government keep their heads cool. Last week, the whole population wanted to send in the marines. Luckily our government didn't do so, but send 40 unarmed Military Police instead. Would be foolish to get us even further in that mess then we are now, without UN support.


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## parsifal (Jul 28, 2014)

The Australians are negotiatig to send somewhere between 50 and 150 police to try and secure the crash site, but now fighting has flared up again in the locality as the Ukrainins push to regain control of the area. 

A police mission into a war zone. not an easy job in a country where language is already a big issue for foreigners


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## michaelmaltby (Jul 28, 2014)

"....without UN support."

How can there ever be UN consideration of this when Russia sits on the Security Council? This is NATO's job + Australia and like-minded cohorts.


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## Marcel (Jul 28, 2014)

Michael, that means we'll not send in armed troops and maybe for the better..
The Ukrain government seem to be a major problem now, just as bad as the separatists in this case. They don't respect a ceased fire in the area which means we still cannot retrieve the remaining victims from the site. Dutch/Australian research team had to go back because of the dangerous situation. No sense in adding more victims to this tragedy.


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## michaelmaltby (Jul 28, 2014)

"...No sense in adding more victims to this tragedy."

I agree .... but the precedent is unsettling ..... let us never forget Korea, 1950. The UN was able to act solely because the USSR had been foolish enough to walk out of the debate. You know _that_ move will never be repeated by Mr. Putin.


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## Totalize (Jul 28, 2014)

Very troubling news I heard this morning before coming into work.

THe U.S. apparently has video evidence of rockets being fired from Russia into the Ukraine. If true it is a blatent act of war. This cannot be explained away by saying its the rebels inside Russia engaging in this provocative act. In a geo political sense such acts benefit Russia as NATO has now less of a reason let the Ukraine joint the alliance. Too many securty issues. Also, I think it enhaces Russia's sphere of influence in the region. This really sucks for those Ukrainians who want closer ties with the West. They are really on their own in this whole affair.


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## razor1uk (Jul 28, 2014)

Well comiserations to the fallen, recriminations for the instigators on all sides, may they suffer worse karmically, if this don't blow up to WW4/EuW43 (or whatever EU War number it'd be since records began).

Mm I thinking the baltic states are getting naturally nervous, and again EU, US UN do pratically nothing... 

the snake is coiling itself, and yet we/they don't check to see if the snake pole is at hand ready.
1936 to 1939 is what it took last time, this time were only 6 months in to a similar proverbial poo pie garnished with borscht unlike last time.

I severely hope who ever has any power in Russia can use some of this to put commissars weapons to the seperatists heads for crapping over everyones boots so royally tha't even Ivan IV would laugh - mind then Ivan would execute those who went against his wishes. 

I'm still under 40, and so, if the sh1tcan goes down, I'll be in 3rd line. ..and considering events of the past, current and likely myriad of futures, I'd gladly go if things go that far for civvy call up.


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## parsifal (Jul 28, 2014)

second investigators abandoned attempts to get to parts of the wreck site, due to heavy fighting.

Turns out the police being assigned to the sites are likley to be armed for self defence, but an emerghency session of the Ukr parliament wont make a decision for another four days. This is an unusual and dangerous situation now. I worry that Australia may find itself at the centre of a much wider conflict.

Time for cooler heads to prevail. We need our investigators to get the sites and do their work. but with a rebel army ill disciplined and frequently drunk on the job, who knows what may happen

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## michaelmaltby (Jul 28, 2014)

"....This is an unusual and dangerous situation now. I worry that Australia may find itself at the centre of a much wider conflict..."

It's more like August, 1914 than September, 1939, in a very disturbing way

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## bobbysocks (Jul 28, 2014)

parsifal said:


> Time for cooler heads to prevail. We need our investigators to get the sites and do their work. but with a rebel army ill disciplined and frequently drunk on the job, who knows what may happen



i have a distinct feeling it is in the best interest of the guilty party to NOT let the investigators get there until the site is so polluted and contaminated that a concrete determination will be nigh unto impossible....and the longer they can delay that with fighting, etc...the better off they are...and that is exactly what is going on. if they felt any guilt or remorse they would have stepped up and apologized but i feel they think the end justifies any means.....

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## parsifal (Jul 28, 2014)

maybe, but it is the ukrainains who are doing most of the attacking in that region at the moment


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## michaelmaltby (Jul 28, 2014)

"...it is the Ukrainians who are doing most of the attacking in that region at the moment"

I realize that ..... they're trying to save their country ..... and they seem to have some MO


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## parsifal (Jul 28, 2014)

news service now says US intell suggest the majority of SAM fire is coming from within Russian territory. This is getting worse by the minute.


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## GrauGeist (Jul 28, 2014)

The current offensive by the Ukranians, from what I understand, is to try and drive the rebels from the region where the crash site is so it can be secured for investigators.


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## michaelmaltby (Jul 29, 2014)

"...try and drive the rebels from the region where the crash site is so it can be secured for investigators."

That is, no doubt, a goal ... but let's put this fighting in perspective ... and the air crash site and human remains scattered around in perspective ... _Ukrainian_ perspective. These people are fighting to keep their country ... to preserve their national identity ... and military action surely is primarily driven by skirmishes and offenses that promise the maximum in regained territory ... I have to believe. I'm afraid this crash site investigation and recovery will remain a casualty of the war that caused it in the first place. We must honor the dead and we must respect the great dignity and outpouring shown by the Dutch people, but it is the Ukrainians on the ground in the Ukraine that are fighting for a more democratic, freer way of life. 

Of course missiles are being fired from neighboring Russia ... I believe the US imagery.

MM
Worried Canadian


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## bobbysocks (Jul 29, 2014)

parsifal said:


> news service now says US intell suggest the majority of SAM fire is coming from within Russian territory. This is getting worse by the minute.



hope these analysts are more on the ball than the ones who saw WMDs in Iraq ( i dont want to start that debate i do know the theories and alibis ).....they just need to use other sources to confirm their findings rather than go off half cocked on a data from a single source. the fact that info was fed to the media i find interesting....we need to know a lot more.


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## bobbysocks (Jul 29, 2014)

double posted


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## GrauGeist (Jul 29, 2014)

You do realize that the military satellites can pinpoint a source of ignition, location of launch and transit of missiles?

Couple that intel with a cross-check of the black box's point of termination, and you literally have a "smoking gun"...

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## parsifal (Jul 29, 2014)

maybe, without actually saying so, that is the reason the EU cranked up the severity of the sanctions this week. 

if they shut down the gas markets across Europe.....no russian gas at all....and anyone who does buy it off them joi0ns being sanctioned, this would be over in a week i reckon.

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## Torch (Jul 30, 2014)

The rebels now placed mines around the crash site keeping the inspectors out...F##ckrs

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## Njaco (Jul 30, 2014)

World wars have been started for alot less..................


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## Marcel (Jul 30, 2014)

Glad that some people still think the world can be divided in black and white. I don't know who the villain is in this story and who the hero. I guess none of them are. Right now we get as much help from one as the other, meaning none.


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 30, 2014)

Torch said:


> The rebels now placed mines around the crash site keeping the inspectors out...F##ckrs




That just makes them look even guiltier.


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## bobbysocks (Jul 30, 2014)

GrauGeist said:


> You do realize that the military satellites can pinpoint a source of ignition, location of launch and transit of missiles?
> 
> Couple that intel with a cross-check of the black box's point of termination, and you literally have a "smoking gun"...



yes i do and i also realize that different aspects ( heat, signals, seismic, etc ) of the same thing could be recognised by several other sources putting fingerprints on the smoking gun...


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## Gnomey (Jul 30, 2014)

Torch said:


> The rebels now placed mines around the crash site keeping the inspectors out...F##ckrs





vikingBerserker said:


> That just makes them look even guiltier.



Indeed.

Some of the conspiracy theories going around with regards to this incident at the other one earlier in the year are quite something to read.


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## parsifal (Jul 30, 2014)

Its a war zone guys. anything can and probably will happen. I hope the EU is excercising a healthy dose of realpolitik in this and not getting and attack of the guilts over being "fair", or "in the intersts of peace". We should be picking a side...the one best aligned to our belifs, or the one that serves our interests the best, and not worry about the morals of war. The morals of war are very important, provided you think about them before the shooting starts. Once the war breaks out, its too late to worry about whether it was right. You play to win, and thats all that matters. 

If that applies to us, and it should, it also applies to the Russians and theiur lackeys.

May the best side win.......


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## gumbyk (Jul 30, 2014)

parsifal said:


> Its a war zone guys. anything can and probably will happen. I hope the EU is excercising a healthy dose of realpolitik in this and not getting and attack of the guilts over being "fair", or "in the intersts of peace". We should be picking a side...the one best aligned to our belifs, or the one that serves our interests the best, and not worry about the morals of war. The morals of war are very important, provided you think about them before the shooting starts. Once the war breaks out, its too late to worry about whether it was right. You play to win, and thats all that matters.
> 
> If that applies to us, and it should, it also applies to the Russians and theiur lackeys.
> 
> May the best side win.......




And THAT is the thinking that led to WW1...


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## GrauGeist (Jul 30, 2014)

parsifal said:


> Its a war zone guys. anything can and probably will happen. I hope the EU is excercising a healthy dose of realpolitik in this and not getting and attack of the guilts over being "fair", or "in the intersts of peace". We should be picking a side...the one best aligned to our belifs, or the one that serves our interests the best, and not worry about the morals of war. The morals of war are very important, provided you think about them before the shooting starts. Once the war breaks out, its too late to worry about whether it was right. You play to win, and thats all that matters.
> 
> If that applies to us, and it should, it also applies to the Russians and theiur lackeys.
> 
> May the best side win.......


I have to disagree, to be honest.

We are in the 21st century, there is no reason that we should even be conduction any form of warfare. Humanity has had well over 6,000 years to learn the lessons of war and yet, we still do it.

All we have managed to do, is create bigger, faster and better armed war machines and even still, with modern technology incorporated into warfare, one would assume that collateral damage would kept to a minimum. These advanced war machines are capable of determining friend or foe if deployed by trained personnel. The Rebels aimed the BUK at an aircraft assuming it was another military transport and the result was one of the oldest byproducts of warfare: innocent lives lost.

The civilians aboard the aircraft had little concern with the events going on below them, they had their minds on a million other things and at an altitude higher than Mount Everest, couldn't even see the conflict if they tried.

The U.S. and the EU have the ability to force any country to the table to immediately stop bloodshed through various means that do not include military action (I intenionally left out the UN because they are a waste of oxygen). Unfortunately, the politics and money behind it usually pulls the teeth out of any actions before they are implimented. It seems to be much easier to shoot someone in the face than it is to sit them down in a room and discuss options.


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## parsifal (Jul 30, 2014)

releasing the dogs of war should not be something we do lightly. but if we do, we place our guys at risk, and our country's well being, by being hesitant. we need a decisive, measured response to this issue

William Tecumseh Sherman, just prior to the evacuation/sacking of Atlanta, had this to say in response to pleas for clemency on the city. he was replying to the city officials. 

"_You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, War is hell, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war [...] I want peace, and believe it can only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect and early success. But, my dear sirs, when peace does come, you may call on me for anything. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter_."

Peace is not secured in war by weakness of hesitancy. Moral navel gazing will not matter a damn to those that mean us harm. Its no different today than it was 150 years ago. by all means apply moral judgement and caution to prevent the war in the first place, or to clean up the mess that war leaves in ints wake. once war is joined, though, take all necessary steps to secure your goals, and not worry about the rights and wrongs of the war. this is something the Hamas turkeys are learning the hard way as we speak. 

Once the war is over, there will be time enough for judgement of behaviour to occur. i wish the Hague was stronger than it is, but that is the mechanism we have to bring criminals of war to justice. i am not advocating criminal behaviour, neither am i advocating excessive violence or overly brutal behaviour. I am advocating application of decisive and definite action to bring about the end of the war. That means decisive application of sanctions at this stage. also decisive and substantial support for the Ukrainians, in the form or training and money and equipment. Calls for restraint, or balaming the Russians is a waste of time. they are applying their solutions to work to their strengths, and achieve the outcomes they desire. We have the superior strength, but we are still losing, because we are being indecisive in the application of our strength.

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## michaelmaltby (Jul 30, 2014)

Well said. Thank you,


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## N4521U (Jul 30, 2014)

As long as new generations replace old generations....
history will keep repeating itself.


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## GrauGeist (Jul 31, 2014)

Parsifal, don't get me wrong, i firmly believe an ass-kicking does wonders to douchebags when diplomacy fails, but in this modern world, nations have the ability to shut down a nation IF they had the cajones to do so. Piddly sanctions here and there and a stern look accompanied by stern langaue and finger wagging is not enough. Shut down Russia's exports, shut down their port access world-wide, stop all imports bound for Russian destinations, freeze ALL world banking assets and freeze all passports. And this could be done immediately and with disasterous consequences for Putin IF it weren't for those persons who were afraid of losing out on their precious income...

This is why armies are still maintained, because it is easier to send nameless kids into battle than it is to lose out on a quarterly profit. So until persons are willing to lose a few dollars here and there for the sake of peace, this kind of bulls!t that we're seeing in the news, will continue...

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## vikingBerserker (Jul 31, 2014)

You cannot reason with an unreasonable person.


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## parsifal (Jul 31, 2014)

reason is the first casualty in war, along with truth

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## michaelmaltby (Jul 31, 2014)

I'm not sure this will do it ...

Land for gas: Merkel and Putin discussed secret deal could end Ukraine crisis - Europe - World - The Independent


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 31, 2014)

Now there is a somewhat one sided deal and I am really not sure Russia's signature is worth the paper it's written on. They already had a treat with Ukraine that they decided not to honor, why think all the sudden they are going to honor this one?


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## imalko (Jul 31, 2014)

michaelmaltby said:


> I'm not sure this will do it ...
> 
> Land for gas: Merkel and Putin discussed secret deal could end Ukraine crisis - Europe - World - The Independent



I think it just might. To my opinion this is exactly what the Russians want. They don't need more of Ukrainian territory. With Crimea in their hands (to which some would argue they have historical right anyway) they have secured their base on the Black Sea and therefore the Mediteranean. It is in their economical interest to have stability in the region and to keep trading relations with EU and foremost with Germany. From the outset this was about keeping the NATO out of the Ukraine. It is understandable that they're protecting their own interests and don't want it in their back yard. Last time something similar was attempted in American neighborhood (Cuban missile crisis) we almost had Third World War! 
One could wonder if the real reason behind shooting down the Malaysian airliner was to prevent such a deal?


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## stona (Jul 31, 2014)

N4521U said:


> As long as new generations replace old generations....
> history will keep repeating itself.




History doesn't repeat itself. We repeat history.

There is no military option. Forget it. The will to impose any kind of political or economic sanctions doesn't exist. EU officials are still working on the list I mentioned days ago. Where will the will for any kind of military response come from?

Having the Ukrainians and the Russians kicking **** out of each other might not be such a bad thing for us anyway. War is an expensive thing and we might be able to force some nice deals for the fuels we need from that part of the world a little later on. Don't forget that the Russian economy is comparable in size to Italy's, about 12% the size of the US or the EU.

Since nuclear weapons were first owned by two antagonists there has NEVER been a military conflict between nuclear armed powers. Even India and Pakistan have called a halt to their wars, preferring to finance various unsavoury organisations to wage a petty cross border conflict.

The only reason nuclear weapons were ever mooted during the Korean conflict was because, at that time, China didn't have them. Arguments about MacArthur's sanity (and that of Truman and Dean for that matter) belong elsewhere 

Cheers

Steve


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## Lucky13 (Jul 31, 2014)

To me, throughout history, more often than not, the Russian people, have been at the short end of the stick and have suffered one despotic leader after another with their big headed egos....Putin is no different....they don't need this and they definitely don't deserve it...

Nobody does!

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## vikingBerserker (Jul 31, 2014)

A-Fricken-Men!


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## parsifal (Jul 31, 2014)

stona said:


> > There is no military option. Forget it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## at6 (Aug 1, 2014)

Unfortunately, the fighting prevents searching for the rest of the remains of the passengers. That in essence means that the grieving relatives are held hostage in the process.

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## GrauGeist (Aug 2, 2014)

at6 said:


> Unfortunately, the fighting prevents searching for the rest of the remains of the passengers. That in essence means that the grieving relatives are held hostage in the process.


The Ukrainian military has secured the area and there are international personnel at the site


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## Marcel (Aug 2, 2014)

Yes, finally and way too late. 
Dutch investigators reported they had found and secured "remains". No full bodies, but it's at least something. We've got 40 militairy police on the site with probably, more coming.

Yesterday I drove over the A2. That's the road that was taken by the convoy. Flowers were still hanging from the bridges.

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## michaelmaltby (Aug 2, 2014)

Repeating history ...

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## Hartmann52 (Aug 2, 2014)

*Marcel*, Experts are still working? Your press mention any pre-release version?


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## Marcel (Aug 3, 2014)

Hartmann52 said:


> *Marcel*, Experts are still working? Your press mention any pre-release version?



Yes, today they got to work again. They have set up camp at Soledar and went to the spot again this morning. They have been shot at, but it's not really dangerous at the moment, according to the leader. Several bodyparts have been found, which have been brought tho Charkov. They'll probably be flown in here tomorrow, so we'll have another convoy and ceremony. Main focus of the research team is still recovering human remains and personal belongings. They at least want to have that finished before it becomes too dangerous again. Investigation into what really happened is of seconday priority at the moment. Anayway, my government will be very carefull with any information until the main priority has been completed. We're at the mercy of both rebels and Ukrain government right now and it doesn't make sense to anger any of them for now.


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## swampyankee (Aug 3, 2014)

Getting a crash site secured promptly in an area without an active war going on is bad enough: anyone who has ever been involved in an accident investigation had heard horror stories of first-responders, even in the US, arriving well after souvenir hunters. One type of souvenir that tended to be hunted was body parts. Local police have gotten much better at securing crash sites, probably because of the general increasing professionalization of local police forces.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 3, 2014)

One of the first things that came to my mind, when I read about the cellphones being taken right after the crash, was that there would have most likely been evidence that the rebels wouldn't want recovered.

Considering the time between the missile's contact and the aircraft's impact, someone onboard may have recorded a video of the tragic event as it was happening.


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## Marcel (Aug 5, 2014)

Yesterday 1 coffin was flown in with remains found since last Friday. Probably parts of several humans. Same ceremony and was brought to Hilversum for identification. The indentification is a slow process. Only 2 people have been identified sofar. 
A preliminary report about the cause will be published next week. Don't expect anything spectacular the team will keep their info until the investigation has been completed.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 5, 2014)

Thanks for the update, Marcel


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## Lefa (Aug 5, 2014)

elenafilatova.com

Interesting page, and personality.
I've been following his sides for a long time, until the chernobyl accident

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## Marcel (Aug 5, 2014)

Sorry, too fast


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## Lefa (Aug 5, 2014)

Marcel said:


> f#ck of, spammer




???? 
What was that is Spamming? 

There: http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/updatejuly19.html

The whole page is interesting, and deals with the situation ugrainan the latest updates.


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## Marcel (Aug 5, 2014)

Lefa said:


> ????
> What was that is Spamming?
> 
> There: http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/maydan/updatejuly19.html
> ...


Sorry, got a spam alert. Didn't dare to check the link. changed my answer, sorry.


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## michaelmaltby (Aug 5, 2014)

Lefa ... _thank you_ for that terrific website .... very insightful on Ukraine and Chernobyl


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## Marcel (Aug 7, 2014)

The mission in the Ukrain has been suspended because it's too dangerous to work there. Last few days no bodyparts have been found. It's not clear when the mission will start again. A small group will stay behind


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## michaelmaltby (Aug 7, 2014)

Very dangerous developments ... in perspective 

Vladimir Putin's pointless conflict with Europe leaves it a vassal of China - Telegraph

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## javlin (Aug 7, 2014)

michaelmaltby said:


> Very dangerous developments ... in perspective
> 
> Vladimir Putin's pointless conflict with Europe leaves it a vassal of China - Telegraph



Great Article!Thks for posting Mike


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## YakFlyer (Aug 8, 2014)

So Russian trade is suspended, assets frozen in other countries, Immm, sounds all too familiar...


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## YakFlyer (Aug 8, 2014)

The Ukrainians have more to gain, if they dispatch the civilian airliner, and sucessfully blame it on the Soviet backed rebels, then they gain global support, against this conflict against Russia. If Russia shoots down the airliner, what can they gain, absolutely nothing. 

This was staged event. Another agenda is at work. I hope New Zealand has the brains to stay the hell out of it.


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## michaelmaltby (Aug 8, 2014)

"....Another agenda is at work."

Pray tell. Do unburden yourself with evidence, YakFlyer.


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## Glider (Aug 8, 2014)

This will be good


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## GrauGeist (Aug 8, 2014)

YakFlyer said:


> The Ukrainians have more to gain, if they dispatch the civilian airliner, and sucessfully blame it on the Soviet backed rebels, then they gain global support, against this conflict against Russia. If Russia shoots down the airliner, what can they gain, absolutely nothing.
> 
> This was staged event. Another agenda is at work. I hope New Zealand has the brains to stay the hell out of it.


Before you buy too much into the misinformation, understand that the Russian backed seperatists had the Russian BUK system. The ignition source of the missile seen by sattelite, was near the Russian border, deep in rebel territory. The day that MH17 was downed, rebels were bragging and celebrating about downing a Ukraine military transport on social media as well as Russian news broadcasts. When it was discovered that the "military transport" was in reality MH17, several Russian news programs *showed the same pictures of the wreckage* but changed the information to read that the Ukraine just shot down a passenger jet...and in one case, it was the same news anchor.
The day after the tragedy, a BUK system was seen moving east, towards the Russian border with an *empty launch rack*.
There is a considerable amount of evidence that the Russians provided the means and the ability for the seperatists to bring down the airliner.

And if you want to discuss your misinformation further, perhaps take the discussion to this thread: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/off-topic-misc/since-international-forum-any-concern-about-whats-going-ukraine-40175-14.html, so we don't clutter up Marcel's thread here...this thread was to stay informed about the tragedy.

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## Marcel (Aug 9, 2014)

Thanks Dave. 
Dutch members of the investigation team are home. It was impossible to work at the site, so they'll have to wait. Doesn't mean the criminal investigation os over, but there now only a few researchers on site. 
At the moment 23 victims have been identified. The group estimates that the will be able to identify at least 176 victims.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 9, 2014)

Hopefully, they'll be able to identify all, and bring closure to all the families


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## Marcel (Aug 9, 2014)

GrauGeist said:


> Hopefully, they'll be able to identify all, and bring closure to all the families



Not much hope. A lot of the remains are just an unordened pile of body parts. They're doing a great job, but the fact that there were many families on board makes thing more difficult. Making DNA matches is difficult if the victims are genetically closely related. So many will not be identified with 100% certainty. 
My hat of to the people doing it. It's a difficult job, I know, I'm a molecular biologist myself.

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## Gnomey (Aug 10, 2014)

Certainly a seriously difficult job and no doubt harrowing as well. Hopefully we get to the bottom of the situation and clear everything up.


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## rank amateur (Sep 4, 2014)

Hartmann52 said:


> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HJmev5xg0_
> Our military believes that this missile system was hit by Boeing. And now it urgently Russian terrorists hide
> *GrauGeist*, thanks





Now call me suspicious but isn't it more than a bit coincidental that anybody is filming just the very second that this BUK happens to pass?


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## Marcel (Sep 4, 2014)

Well no, everybody nowadays has a smartphone so can film anytime. And this is an area where palmost everybody has a camera in their car to film everything they see (remember the meteor in Russia some time ago). Youtube is full of the stuff.


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## GrauGeist (Sep 4, 2014)

That video reminds me of times I have something interesting coming and have gone to grab my camera...you'll note that the video is not taken from the street or approching, which would indicTe they knew in advance that it was coming, but it has already passed the person's location when the video was taken...

Trust me, I have alot of great photos of aircraft or locomotives that have already passed me!


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## razor1uk (Sep 4, 2014)

I think that even some of the public who are living within the separatist areas would be concerned about the idiots in the area hiding under the ideology of separatism - irrispective of what they personally believe.

Also, it probably had at least one truck and a BTR-90 running ahead of it - in case of mines and to clear the road ahead of the launchers route and such.


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## at6 (Sep 4, 2014)

Pootin' Putin's boys are definitely there. Where else would "separatists" get the tanks shown on the Evening News?


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## imalko (Sep 5, 2014)

By seizing some weapon depot of Ukrainian army perhaps?


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## Torch (Sep 5, 2014)

Can't believe the Ukraines would just leave their stuff there for the taking, atleast boobie trap them..


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## GrauGeist (Sep 5, 2014)

There is a mix of T-72 tanks of the rebels that have been identified:

T-72BV, which was fairly common as an export tank and is a Ukrainian Army regular type. However, since being put into secondary service or storage by Russia means plenty available to support the rebels.

T-72B1, this is a mixed bag, as there are different ones spotted that could go either way. Early types with with smoke dischargers mounted according to whether or not it was equipped with the Kontact-1 ERA can help give an idea if it was drawn from Russian surplus stocks or captured from a Ukrainian depot.

T-72BM, this is the one that can be called the "smoking gun". This is exclusively a Russian tank and can be identified by several unique features, especially it's Kontakt-5 armor (ERA). There have been several spotted, mixed in with rebel armor groups and convoys in various areas.


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## razor1uk (Sep 11, 2014)

GrauGeist said:


> There is a mix of T-72 tanks of the rebels that have been identified:
> .....
> T-72BM, this is the one that can be called the "smoking gun". This is exclusively a Russian tank and can be identified by several unique features, especially it's Kontakt-5 armor (ERA). There have been several spotted, mixed in with rebel armor groups and convoys in various areas.



I'd say IMHO the few of these mixed within the 'rebels'spera\tists' are the veteran 'volunteers' perhaps as command/network tanks.


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## GrauGeist (Sep 11, 2014)

I was thinking along the same lines. In several of the photos that showed the composite groups, the T-72BM is usually centered in a group of the other T-72 types...so far, I haven't seen two T-72BMs in the company of each other.


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## Marcel (Sep 12, 2014)

211 victims have been identified so far. This more than estimated they could do, so the researchers are doing a pretty good job. 
In the mean time, I guess you all heard about the report from the investigation. This is a preliminary report, so is a little careful. The summary was that MH17 has been hit by a agood number of external objects. Although the report doesn't explicitly mentions the word missile, I think this does imply that it was. 

The report can be read here: http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/701/b3923acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf


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## Gnomey (Sep 12, 2014)

The implication I got from the preliminary report was that it was hit by a AA missile although they didn't say it in so many words.


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## GrauGeist (Sep 12, 2014)

The evidence clearly supports a hit buy a BUK system and yet the majority of Russian news agencies claim they have eyewitness accounts that a Ukrainian Su-25 not only hit the airliner with an air-to-air, but strafed it as it was descending.

Considering the altitude and the overcast conditions that day, these "eyewitnesses" must have been eating Chernobyl carrots.

And the amazing pilot of that magic Su-25...not only does he manage to get that beast up to that altitude, but scores a hit with an air-to-air AND administers a coupe-de-gras with his "six guns" blazing...

If you stop and think about it for a second, does Russia really want to go to war against such awesome Ukrainian pilots? Just imagine what these incredible pilots could do with newer Ukrainian aircraft against their opponents!


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## Marcel (Oct 17, 2014)

278 victims have been identified. Incredible! Also big thanks to the Ukrainian locals. They erected a memorial at the site today.


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## Torch (Oct 17, 2014)

Good news in a way....


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## Capt. Vick (Oct 17, 2014)

So sad when I think that this will become just a foot note in east west relations with no one ever being held to task. It's happened before and will no doubt happen again.


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## Gnomey (Oct 17, 2014)

Indeed, good to see the locals assisting and remembering all the same.


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## Marcel (Jan 1, 2015)

This will probably be the event in 2014 that will be reminded most here in the Netherlands. 

The teams did an incredible job. Only 4 passengers remain unidentified.

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## Elmas (Jan 1, 2015)

I'd like to post a cartoon about the matter, but I don't know if it could be too "strong".......


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## Torch (Jan 1, 2015)

The truth hurts some times.....


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## vikingBerserker (Jan 1, 2015)

Sad but true.


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## GrauGeist (Jan 1, 2015)

Marcel said:


> This will probably be the event in 2014 that will be reminded most here in the Netherlands.
> 
> The teams did an incredible job. Only 4 passengers remain unidentified.


That's a remarkable success rate as some of the victims were in pretty bad shape to be ID'd.

It's a terrible thing to have a year remembered by such a shameful tragedy.


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## Capt. Vick (Jan 1, 2015)

Elmas said:


> I'd like to post a cartoon about the matter, but I don't know if it could be too "strong".......



Post it and we'll see


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## Elmas (Jan 1, 2015)

ok...... Moderators will see if take it out .....


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## Capt. Vick (Jan 1, 2015)

I have no problem with it. But my opinion doesn't count for much on the forum.


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## GrauGeist (Jan 1, 2015)

That cartoon pretty much sums it up. Sad, but true...


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## Freebird (Jan 1, 2015)

Capt. Vick said:


> So sad when I think that this will become just a foot note in east west relations with no one ever being held to task. It's happened before and will no doubt happen again.



Sadly it's the way things are, very rarely are the guilty in war ever held to account, even for deliberate misconduct.

And frankly, while it's a horrible tragedy, it seems pretty clear that the crew that fired didn't intend to hit a civilian airliner, so if no one was held to account for Iran 655, bombing of the Chinese embassy, Israel bombing a UN hospital etc etc etc - I find it hard to see how we could in good conscience demand something otherwise in this case.

Seems that the ICJ was intended to adjudicate these types of offences, but since we've gutted it's authority there isn't much that they can do.


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## vikingBerserker (Jan 1, 2015)

If it was an accident (and I do believe it was) they should have stated such. Denying it and coming out with ludicrous explanations such as the CIA was behind it or releasing a doctored photo showing a Ukraine Fighter shooting it down really makes it look like a cover up.


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## GrauGeist (Jan 2, 2015)

freebird said:


> so if no one was held to account for *Iran 655*, *bombing of the Chinese embassy*, *Israel bombing a UN hospital* etc etc etc - I find it hard to see how we could in good conscience demand something otherwise in this case.


Love those examples...

In all honesty, the "bombing" of a UN hospital or the Bombing of the Chinese Embassy don't have much to do about this thread, other than thinly veiled barbs at the U.S. and Israel.

If we want to stay on track and put it into perspective, then let's look at the bigger picture:

24 August 1938 - CNAC DC-2 downed by Japanese aircraft. 15 of 18 people perished.

June 14 1940 - Aero O/Y Ju52/3 downed by Soviet aircraft. All 9 aboard perished.

29 October 1940 - CNAC DC-2 downed by Japanese aircraft. All 9 aboard perished.

3 March 1942 - KNILM DC-3 downed by Japanese aircraft. 4 of 8 people perished.

1 June 1943 - BOAC DC-3 (flight 777) downed by German aircraft. All 17 aboard perished.

23 July 1954 - Cathay Pacific DC-4 downed by Chinese aircraft. 10 of 19 people perished.

27 July 1955 - El Al L-149 (flight 402) downed by Bulgarian aircraft. All 58 aboard perished.

21 February 1973 - Libyan Airlines 727 (flight 114) downed by Israeli aircraft. 108 of 113 perished.

20 April 1978 - KAL 707 (flight 902) downed by Soviet aircraft. 2 of 109 perished.

3 September 1978 - Air Rhodesia Viscount (flight 825) downed by ZIPRA SAM. 38 of 56 people perished. 

12 February 1979 - Air Rhodesia Viscount (flight 827) downed by ZIPRA SAM. All 59 aboard perished.

27 June 1980 - Aerolinee Itavia DC-9 (flight 870) downed by French aircraft. All 81 aboard perished.

1 September 1983 - KAL 747 (flight 007) downed by Soviet aircraft. All 269 aboard perished.

24 February 1985 - AWI Do228 downed by guerrilla ground forces. All 3 aboard perished.

6 November 1987 - Air Malawi SC.7 downed by ground forces. All 10 aboard perished.

3 July 1988 - Iran Air (flight 655) downed by U.S. Navy. All 290 aboard perished.

8 December 1988 - T&G Aviation DC-7 downed by guerrilla ground forces. All 5 aboard perished.

21 September 1993 - Transair Georgia Tu-134 downed by rebel SAM. All 136 aboard perished.

22 September 1993- Transair Georgia Tu-154 downed by rebel SAM. 108 of 132 perished.

6 April 1994 - Rwandan Dassault 50 (Presidential flight) downed by RPF SAM. All 12 aboard (including two Presidents) perished.

29 September 1998 - Lionair An-24 (flight 602) downed by rebel SAM. All 55 aboard perished.

4 October 2001 - SAL Tu-154 (flight 1812) downed by Ukrainian SAM. All 78 aboard perished.

9 January 2007 - Aerian Tur-M An-26 (charter) downed by insurgent SAM. 34 of 35 people perished.

23 March 2007 - TAEA Il-76 (cargo) downed by rebel SAM. All 11 aboard perished.

And of course this year's tragedy.

So this sort of BS has been going on for nearly 100 years. After viewing this terrible list, I certainly hope that "we" don't continue to "pick and choose" tragic events to villify one group or a nation in the future.


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## Freebird (Jan 2, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> Love those examples...
> 
> In all honesty, the "bombing" of a UN hospital or the Bombing of the Chinese Embassy don't have much to do about this thread, other than thinly veiled barbs at the U.S. and Israel.



Grau - no "barbs" at Israel or the US. (and I obviously should have said "shelled", not "bombed")
The relevance to the thread is that in a time of war/conflict, mistakes are made and unfortunately civilians are killed.
You could say that the US Israel were aware of the nature coordinates of those targets, but due to errors they were struck and people died. It wasn't deliberate but it happens. Flight 17 should never have been attacked unless they were able to confirm that it was a military target and not civilian. The Vincennes might have known that a radar target with a civilian "squawk" and an ascending altitude was very possibly a passenger airliner, and verified it. But in all of those cases, in the heat of battle, somebody made a decision to push a button and it had tragic consequences.
It would be better to simply come out and admit that a mistake was made, and apologise promptly, rather than obfuscate and deny.



GrauGeist said:


> If we want to stay on track and put it into perspective, then let's look at the bigger picture:So this sort of BS has been going on for nearly 100 years. After viewing this terrible list, I certainly hope that "we" don't continue to "pick and choose" tragic events to villify one group or a nation in the future.



I couldn't agree more, every nation should make all possible efforts to safeguard against civilian casualties.
When mistakes are made the perpetrator should come clean and apologise.
We also need to be honest about are own mistakes instead of brushing them off - if we are to maintain credibility and respect in the world.




vikingBerserker said:


> If it was an accident (and I do believe it was) they should have stated such. Denying it and coming out with ludicrous explanations such as the CIA was behind it or releasing a doctored photo showing a Ukraine Fighter shooting it down really makes it look like a cover up.



Viking, I don't disagree at all that a speedy and contrite apology would be best, but sadly the technique of repeated denial, cover up, and misinformation seems to be the rule of thumb, (and indeed effective) followed by a grudging admission long after the fact, when the media's interest has moved on to something else.

Much like Clinton's strident denials of impropriety, the BS explanations for the attack on the Benghazi embassy, car companies denial of design faults that they were perfectly aware of, etc etc etc.
The sad fact is that denial and obfuscation have been shown to be very effective in reducing damage from scandals misdeeds, and by the time the truth comes out there's little interest or condemnation of the tactic.
The Donets separatists have unfortunately decided to follow that route.


edit: This certainly isn't about bashing the US, I've used examples that many are familiar with.
I could cite the Canadian government's actions in the sponsorship scandal (denials and a publication ban on the most damaging testimony) and numerous other examples from other nations.


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## Hartmann52 (Jan 10, 2015)

What do you think about it, colleagues?
https://mh17.correctiv.org/english/


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## vikingBerserker (Jan 10, 2015)

I keep getting error message when I click.


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## Torch (Jan 10, 2015)

Worked for me,interesting read..


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## GrauGeist (Jan 10, 2015)

Hartmann52 said:


> What do you think about it, colleagues?


Really well presented article, lays out cold-hard facts. Thanks for sharing the link.



vikingBerserker said:


> I keep getting error message when I click.


That's because you don't know the secret hand-shake...


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## vikingBerserker (Jan 10, 2015)

I must have figured it out as I can see it now!

It always concerns me when a piece references anonymous sources, but the article is very logical.


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## GrauGeist (Jan 10, 2015)

As far as personal sources, the author did cite sources where possible, but in that part of the world, a person can still disappear (and do, actually) very easily. And if they don't disappear, they are usually found very dead along with family members.


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