# Identify greys from enclosed pic/color chart



## P-40K-5 (Jul 6, 2011)

Hello, 

I was wondering for those who colorize photos or anybody really, if one can possibly match the RLM colors on the right to the photo on the left. anyhelp greatly appreciated! thanks.


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## Wayne Little (Jul 10, 2011)

Mmmm....tall tail wheel.....G-14 maybe?...winter setting, picture is not the best quality to make a determination either....yellow tail band visible, very difficult to tell if it is 74/75 83/75 or possibly something else...have to think about it some more...


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 10, 2011)

Hey thanks for responding Wayne! the 109 in question is actually a Bf109G-6/YAM built at the Gyor, Hungary plant.






Tall guy on the right is General Gunther Rall. This was in the winter of 1944/1945.


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## stona (Jul 10, 2011)

I'd say the kind of colour matching you are attempting is nigh on impossible as you are interpreting various grey tones. As Wayne said it is notoriously difficult to distinguish between 74/75 a 83/75 or even 81/82 or 82/83 in camouflage schemes. Throw in a variety of mottling possibilities,oversprays etc and you've got a serious problem! You'd be better establishing how aircraft at that facility at that time,or in that production block,were finished. 
I've seen some truly horrible colourisations as well as some well researched and apparently accurate ones!
Cheers
Steve


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 10, 2011)

yup, theres some bad colour profiles out there. thats for sure. at this time during the war Gyor was under Mtt-Reg control, and would follow
their protocols. problem being,in late 1944, did Mtt-Reg use Bf109G-14 colours on the G-6's as well.


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## stona (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm stuck on site today,home tomorrow,and I honestly can't remember. If noone else replies I'll check and see what I can find tomorrow.
Cheers
Steve


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## stona (Jul 10, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> did Mtt-Reg use Bf109G-14 colours on the G-6's as well.



I honestly can't remember and can't check at the moment as I'm out on site, a lovely way to spend my Sunday! If noone else responds I'll see what I can find tomorrow.
Cheers
Steve


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 10, 2011)

thanks. I know RLM had their rules, and the major players ie: Erla-Lip, WNF, Mtt-Reg interpited those rules in their own way.
I'm pretty sure all colours were standardized. then theres the staffels in each group who had there own ideas. some in JG77 for 
example being big on using Italian colours. but thats a whole other ball game. the pic above is factory fresh delivery, so it would
have the factory colours camo scheme on her for late 1944.


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## drgondog (Jul 10, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> Hey thanks for responding Wayne! the 109 in question is actually a Bf109G-6/YAM built at the Gyor, Hungary plant.
> 
> View attachment 172687
> 
> ...


 
The tall guy with the ski jump nose is not Rall. Rall about 5-7" maybe 5-8" same heighth as my father, Adolph Galland and maybe an inch taller than Krupinski and Hitler. Attached is a photo I took at the American Fighter Aces Reunion in ~ 1985


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## drgondog (Jul 10, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> Hey thanks for responding Wayne! the 109 in question is actually a Bf109G-6/YAM built at the Gyor, Hungary plant.
> 
> View attachment 172687
> 
> ...


 
The tall guy with the ski jump nose is not Rall. Rall about 5-7" maybe 5-8" same heighth as my father, Adolph Galland and maybe an inch taller than Krupinski and Hitler. Attached is a photo I took at the American Fighter Aces Reunion in ~ 1985


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 10, 2011)

Ahhh Adolf Galland, still has that 'movie star' look!


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## phas3e (Jul 11, 2011)

If its a regensburg aircraft its painted as their later G14s (the very large sprayed spots are a feature) which were still 74/75/76, theres good colour examples in 'Gotterdammerung' page 38 and 39.


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## stona (Jul 11, 2011)

Are you sure of your identification? Do you have a werknummer? The tall tail wheel was only factory fitted to late production G-6s from production block 167000 (Prien/Rodeicke) and that is a Regensburg built block. This was fitted to the smaller tail as in your picture. The aircraft also has the Erla haube,DF loop and Galland panzer. The antenna mast also looks to be fitted to the canopy. All this also means that this could be,as Wayne suggested, an early G-14. The tall wheel/short tail was present on some early Regensburg machines. Unless you've got some good evidence that this is a Gyor built machine I'd go with the Regensburg scheme,probably the same thing anyway.
My money is on 74/75/76.
There's a nice comparison evident in your second picture between the camouflage on your subject in the foreground and the Erla style blotches on the one in the background.
I'm with "drgondog" on the tall chap's identity,I don't think that is Rall.
Cheers
Steve


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## Wayne Little (Jul 11, 2011)

Mmm, based on Regensberg, then 74/75/76 is likely....


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 11, 2011)

stona said:


> Are you sure of your identification? Do you have a werknummer?
> Cheers
> Steve


 
95182, its on the fin. Gyor built G-4,6's (until G-14's are found). heres the known Gyor WNr's.:

Bf109G-4 - WNr.16651 to WNr.16653
Bf109G-6 - WNr.16654 to WNr.16667
Bf109G-6 - WNr.760001 to WNr.760??? (possibly G-14 mixed)
Bf109G-6 - WNr.95000 to WNr.97??? (Feb-45)

not a complete list, but definately its a Gyor built eagle.

so 74/75/76 eh, thanks guys!


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## stona (Jul 11, 2011)

Cool. Can I just ask which photograph the werknummer is seen in. I have the same image that you originally posted but my notes have the werknummer as "unknown". I also have the Gyor production blocks as 96000-97000 and possibly a block starting at 760000. Both of these would exclude the werknummer you have for this aircraft.
It's all fun isn't it!
Cheers
Steve


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 11, 2011)

very fun! normally the WNr. would exclude it as a Gyor Eagle, but since the closest block to WNr.95182 would be Gyor,
and very far away from Erla-Lipz, WNF, Mtt-Reg blocks, the safe bet would be Gyor Bf109G-6's were 95000-97xxx. 

OR

the Gyor 95xxx block could in fact be Bf109G-14's! so we discovered a new batch...say it ain't so!


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## stona (Jul 11, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> OR
> 
> the Gyor 95xxx block could in fact be Bf109G-14's! so we discovered a new batch...say it ain't so!



Well never say never! You will be aware that it is virtually impossible to tell a G-6 from a G-14 from a photograph.The aircraft in the picture could easily be a G-14, but I would still expect that to be from Regensburg in the absence of some hard evidence.
I just wonder if that werknummer is correct.
Cheers
Steve


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 11, 2011)

well heres a 'cleaned up' pic of the WNr. not sure of much more difinative it can be?


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## stona (Jul 11, 2011)

We'll have to agree to disagree about how definitive that is.
I can't accept that as evidence of an entirely new and undocumented production block. That aircraft's werknummer will remain "unbekannt" in my notes and we''ll have to agree to differ 

Maybe,down the line your supposition will be proven correct. That's what makes all this such fun!
Cheers
Steve


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm not a historian, I just play one on the internet lol. anyways, new, perhaps not. documented, well... the above picture tells a tale. but yes, I see your point.
no problem with us disagreeing, it makes for interesting conversation. 

'_der Luftwaffe früheren Glanz wieder lebt!_'


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 11, 2011)

Steve, have you seen this.. 







' 109 ' appears before the WNr. eg: WNr.109.5491 at at least one factory. I wonder if that appeared on any actual aircraft that way...


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## stona (Jul 12, 2011)

P-40K-5 said:


> WNr.109.5491 at at least one factory. I wonder if that appeared on any actual aircraft that way...



I can't remember seeing that format on an aircraft but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'll check some piccies when I get a chance.
Cheers
Steve


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 12, 2011)

While searching, I found something interesting. 






I never expected to see this on a Bf109E...


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## Wayne Little (Jul 13, 2011)

I'm sure the second W.Nr. has been simply been pasted as part of the process to remove the swastica for publication, got another somewhere, where the "Nicht Anfassen" from the rudder has been pasted in the same area too.... the 'F' would have some meaning, sorry don't know the answer.


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## stona (Jul 13, 2011)

Wayne is surely correct,a bit of cut and pasting. The F is for "flugklar". It indicates that this aircraft has been damaged but is now cleared for flying again.
Cheers
Steve


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## Wayne Little (Jul 13, 2011)

Thanks for the 'F' clarification Steve, new there was a reason for it!


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 13, 2011)

thanks for the explanation on the 'F'. awesome. I know about the 'cut paste'. it came from German Ebay. Guess they choose 
to ignore their past and stagnate rather then embrace it and move on.


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## icepac (Jul 13, 2011)

I see no greys in any of the pictures.

They all look like earthlings.


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## stona (Jul 13, 2011)

I've been doing a bit of searching for this 95XXX production block coming from the Gyor plant. The origin seems to be in a book which I have never seen,nor do I have access to it. This book was written by a Hungarian chap called Punka Gyorgy. I have no idea where his information came from but have to accept that this makes your aircraft's origin at that plant,and your suspected werknummer a possibility.
I'd love to know more. Anyone familiar with this book? It would be useful to know when it was published.
Cheers
Steve


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 13, 2011)

I'll have to find that book ( and the name of it). the only one so far I found was Hungarian aces of WWII by Punka Gyorgy.


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## stona (Jul 14, 2011)

Trying to find out! 
As a by the way if your aircraft was indeed from Gyor and factory fresh as of the winter of '44-'45 it was built when the plant was under W.N.F.management. Wiener Neustadt schemes,on their early G-14s at least,were very similar to Erla schemes. No idea if Gyor changed its schemes to the new management W.N.F. versions but possibly not so new?
Mmmmmmmm
Steve


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