# Weaponology



## Soren (Mar 16, 2008)

*German Weaponology*

*Waffen SS and their weapons *

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXvWOCVkD7U_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P_-8spMsjQ_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kutTWIGqtvo_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RicFXjVXhQE_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50iouga7Ri8_

*MG-34 MG-42*

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSCDkkoAKbs_


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## Njaco (Mar 16, 2008)

Nice links and thats about all I'll say.


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## Emac44 (Mar 16, 2008)

Oh Hell its on again. Roll up Roll up. And I agree Njaco. 
Seems some are like a bear with a sore head Njaco. Best let sleeping dogs lie sometimes instead of igniting another verbal punch up for no point


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 17, 2008)

Soren since you decided to start this as a flame thread I should close it again.

However I will just edit your post.

Warning to all:

If this turns into a flame thread it will be closed and offenders will recieve infractions.

If you can all act like adults this thread will stay open.


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## SoD Stitch (Mar 17, 2008)

Njaco said:


> Nice links and thats about all I'll say.



Well put . . . . .


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## mkloby (Mar 17, 2008)

I watched the MG vid - not really anything new there. Excellent weapons though, I'd love to get to fire them someday.


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## Emac44 (Mar 18, 2008)

Like Njaco I will reserve my comments to myself. I take no side in this thread and remain silent


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## Soren (Mar 18, 2008)

Another excellent episode, this time about my personal favorites;


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VdhhGjy2yE_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWYEK71IBBU_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_dppxERE1g_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceEY_a11Llc_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCD8CBAupSw_


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## Thorlifter (Mar 18, 2008)

Nice vid's Soren. I haven't watched them all yet, but since I'm traveling right now, I'll check the rest out in my hotel room tonight.


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## Soren (Mar 18, 2008)

Hope you'll enjoy them Thorlifter, and have a nice trip


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## Njaco (Mar 19, 2008)

Great vids, Thor! I agree, I liked the last show.


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## Soren (Mar 19, 2008)

There are only a very few who I consider as tough and well trained as the SAS.


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## plan_D (Mar 20, 2008)

Notice on the Waffen-SS videos, it's always the British and Russians getting beaten by them. The Americans never get mentioned as losing.  And while talking about the King Tiger it kept showing the Panther; and while talking about the Tiger it kept showing the Pz.Kpfw IV.


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## mkloby (Mar 20, 2008)

plan_D said:


> Notice on the Waffen-SS videos, it's always the British and Russians getting beaten by them. The Americans never get mentioned as losing.  And while talking about the King Tiger it kept showing the Panther; and while talking about the Tiger it kept showing the Pz.Kpfw IV.



That's because us Americans never lost a single engagement... duh! 

I actually didn't notice it - but I only watched the MG video.


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## Soren (Mar 20, 2008)

Hehe I know Plan_D 

Try to watch the episodes on the USMC Rangers, I guarantee you'll drown in all the americana BS 

The SAS runs circles around both. 

The SAS, Jägerkorps, GSG KSK 9 USN SEALS are the guys which set the std today.


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## mkloby (Mar 20, 2008)

Soren said:


> Hehe I know Plan_D
> 
> Try to watch the episodes on the USMC Rangers, I guarantee you'll drown in all the americana BS



Oh heck...


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## Soren (Mar 20, 2008)

Hey mkloby it's not all which is like that, but there are lots of it, and it really gets to ya. 

Allot of phrases like "they're the best trained", "the best in the world" etc etc are used, and it's over the top really. Still it's a good series IMO (As long as you know when to fetch the salt bottle  )

Let me myself clear;

The USMC Rangers aren't rookies by any means, they're very well trained and skilled units, but they're NOT the best out there.


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## Thorlifter (Mar 20, 2008)

Who is then......in your opinion.


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## Soren (Mar 20, 2008)

The SAS, IMO.

The Jägerkorps, KSK9 US Navy SEALS rank right up there with them though..


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## Soren (Mar 21, 2008)

Oh and mkloby, remember that we're talking about the media here, not the average American. The media has a habbit of being rather nationalistic.


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## mkloby (Mar 21, 2008)

Soren said:


> The SAS, IMO.
> 
> The Jägerkorps, KSK9 US Navy SEALS rank right up there with them though..



Here is the difference - the USMC is starting to push 190,000 strong. We're regular forces... and I'll offer we very well may be the best trained force that is that large and is capable of fulfilling such a broad range of missions and objectives.

Of course spec ops type units such as SEALS are better trained at what they do.

Nobody has the intimate knowledge of training throughout all different units, and it is a very difficult thing to compare - and often leads to chest pounding.


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## Njaco (Mar 21, 2008)

can't be a bad thing for moral whichever unit you're with.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 21, 2008)

Soren said:


> Hey mkloby it's not all which is like that, but there are lots of it, and it really gets to ya.
> 
> Allot of phrases like "they're the best trained", "the best in the world" etc etc are used, and it's over the top really. Still it's a good series IMO (As long as you know when to fetch the salt bottle  )
> 
> ...



It also gets rather annoying when its about the other side as well. Do you understand? Probably not...


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## Soren (Mar 22, 2008)

Only when it's unjust Adler.


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## joy17782 (Mar 22, 2008)

well i disagree, the rangers are a different bird then the sas , and ranger school aint no joke , as far as the usmc goes they do there job very well. so please it aint americana bs, its the fact!!!!! we been protecting other people so long they just forget to say thanks ,


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## plan_D (Mar 23, 2008)

It's hard to compare the USMC with any other single unit in the Western World. The U.S. has the advantage of being extremely rich and able to spend a lot on its defence. This large wealth has made the USMC an army in its own right! 

If you were to compare a Royal Marine against a U.S. Marine - you'd probably find that the Royal Marine is better trained but the U.S Marine has the entire USMC behind him with planes, ships and tanks! The Royal Marines are regular troops despite their Commando name. 

That Weaponology series just seems full of the clichéd over the top American attitude. It's hard to take it seriously when all you can do is imagine some cheesy little spikey haired frat boy shouting about how cool blowing stuff up is.


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## mkloby (Mar 23, 2008)

plan_D said:


> It's hard to compare the USMC with any other single unit in the Western World. The U.S. has the advantage of being extremely rich and able to spend a lot on its defence. This large wealth has made the USMC an army in its own right!
> 
> If you were to compare a Royal Marine against a U.S. Marine - you'd probably find that the Royal Marine is better trained but the U.S Marine has the entire USMC behind him with planes, ships and tanks! The Royal Marines are regular troops despite their Commando name.
> 
> That Weaponology series just seems full of the clichéd over the top American attitude. It's hard to take it seriously when all you can do is imagine some cheesy little spikey haired frat boy shouting about how cool blowing stuff up is.




I've never gotten to train with Royal Marines yet - I do remember them doing a training exercise at Quantico several years back for about a month or so when I was going through the Basic Officer Course... remember an incident about some of them wandering around the barracks naked after stripping down and tossing their dirty gear in the washer and offending a female officer.

I think some would be surprised at the level of training that US forces receive... not to mention that it also takes large sums of money to conduct intense training of troops. It's difficult to determine training of different forces - the USMC has everything from regular infantry, recon, MARSOC, the air wing, logistics and supply, armor, amphibs, etc. But - I have never heard anything bad uttered by anyone I know that has worked with the RM.


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## pbfoot (Mar 23, 2008)

mkloby said:


> I've never gotten to train with Royal Marines yet - I do remember them doing a training exercise at Quantico several years back for about a month or so when I was going through the Basic Officer Course... remember an incident about some of them wandering around the barracks naked after stripping down and tossing their dirty gear in the washer and offending a female officer.
> 
> .


Better endowed


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## plan_D (Mar 23, 2008)

I wouldn't be surprised, mkloby. The U.S is another western force that will certainly be highly trained - I think most of the world sees a U.S. Marine as the Jarhead on the ground ... a lot of people fail to realise that it consists of all the components of a full military force. There's no doubt in my mind that a Marine pilot (Yes, like yourself) is any less competant at flying an aircraft than a RAF pilot. I would certainly be quicker to say that the average non-serving American would be shocked at the level of expertise and training that other Western nations have... I say non-serving because I know that a lot of American vets and those currently serving would have met, trained alongside or even fought alongside foreign troops and recognised that whomever they were with were not amateurs at any rate. 

You probably will never hear a bad word against the RM when it comes to fighting ... the local police in any area they are based might have a bad word though..


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## joy17782 (Mar 23, 2008)

as far as the police go, any rm or usmc deserve too blow off steam, when i was in we went down too paris island for a week, and of all the army guys there, only the airborne guys got any respect from the devil dogs , and since i have my wings they were good guys, i have respect for all and a marine is a highly trained, motivated killer!!!!!!.


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## mkloby (Mar 23, 2008)

Soren said:


> Hehe I know Plan_D
> 
> Try to watch the episodes on the USMC Rangers, I guarantee you'll drown in all the americana BS
> 
> ...



Delayed response: again - comparing regular forces to special ops to regular forces is comparing apples to oranges. Spec Ops type units are amazing warriors that excel at the types of missions given to them... but in terms of conventional warfare involving combined arms, they don't have that capability. They are different types of forces with different missions.


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## Soren (Mar 23, 2008)

mkloby,

It's not that simple. 

The spec ops have to endure harder training more demanding tasks. The USMC hardly ever faces a situation where it hasn't got air-support, ground naval support at its disposal, and its often the same with the Rangers. The Spec Ops units have to get the job done without all this extra support, and this is mostly whilst being behind enemy lines and massively out-numbered. 

Spec Ops units are trained to to survive behind enemy lines by themselves, trained to endure torture, trained to use all kinds of vehicles equipment. The USMC Rangers, whilst being very well trained (Definitely allot better than the average grunt), isn't that well trained.

So the only way in which this can be called an apple orange comparison is if we're talking individual capability, cause then the Spec Ops have it all over the USMC Rangers.


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## mkloby (Mar 24, 2008)

Soren - you just said exactly what I did in a more detailed way. Again - they have a different mission.

BTW the USMC has spec ops units, although it is still a new force.


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## plan_D (Mar 24, 2008)

Nearly on topic;

I watch a programme called "SAS: A Soldiers Story" tonight about nine SAS lads who held off a reported 400 Arab communist rebels in Oman in '72. Two were killed but it was a defensive success; the SAS lads were actually saved by Strikemasters. I just cannot fathom how nine men held off around four-hundred with two heavy machine guns, one mortar and a 25 pdr (one bloke operating it). 

On the mention of specialist units inside regular units; the SAS can be considered specialist to the Para in some ways (58% of SAS are ex-Para) but the Paras have their Pathfinders who are "spec ops". And the Royal Marines are considered "specialist" when the time comes, but they also have the SBS that they have operated alongside. During the 2003 invasion of Iraq the SEALs operated with the Royal Marines... Dan would obviously know more than I about that.


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## m kenny (Mar 25, 2008)

plan_D said:


> Nearly on topic;
> 
> I watch a programme called "SAS: A Soldiers Story" tonight about nine SAS lads who held off a reported 400 Arab communist rebels in Oman in '72. Two were killed but it was a defensive success; the SAS lads were actually saved by Strikemasters. I just cannot fathom how nine men held off around four-hundred with two heavy machine guns, one mortar and a 25 pdr (one bloke operating it).



Maybe it was like the claims in Bravo Two Zero? There was a TV programe where Michael Asher, ( author of The Real Bravo Two Zero) retraced the steps of the patrol. He interviewed Iraqi shepperds who still had some of the kit abandoned by the patrol. It seems the 'firefight with hundreds of Iraqi soldiers' was just a few shots from a couple of frightened civilians.


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## Emac44 (Mar 25, 2008)

Then Plan you have the Commonwealth SAS New Zealand and Australian SAS Sabre Squadrons. And of course Aussie SAS and Kiwi SAS train alongside each other as well as British SAS and US Special Forces. But with Australian SAS their activities remain secret as does the identities of each member of the Australian SAS. At the moment Australian SAS are in Afghanistan. What duties they are performing in Afghanistan Plan is not released to the media of course like any other Special Forces worldwide. Its months later some details are released in the SAS dealings with the Talaban in Afghanistan. It took 12 months for the ADF here in Australia to release details what the Australian SAS did in Iraq. Below is a link of the Australian SAS from their base at Swanbourne Western Australia 

SASR - ShadowSpear Special Operations


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## plan_D (Mar 25, 2008)

Of course, the British SAS and SBS operations are not all open to public scrutiny. It's taken 30 years for the SAS actions in Oman to become truly public, and some we'll never know. I know the Australian SAS operated alongside the British SAS at the start of the Iraq War to capture a few airfields in true World War II style with a few 'snatch' land rovers and lots of ammo. 

That maybe true, kenny, but I would sooner believe the story of a man who was there rather than assumptions. As the men said they were saved by Strikemasters and would have certainly been overrun without the aid of air support.


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## m kenny (Mar 25, 2008)

plan_D said:


> That maybe true, kenny, but I would sooner believe the story of a man who was there rather than assumptions. As the men said they were saved by Strikemasters and would have certainly been overrun without the aid of air support.



Which 'man who was there' do you believe. The stories of Ryan and Mcnab are incompatable. One of them must be wrong.
Presumably you did not see Asher's tv program. He visited all the locations where it was said the 'action' took place and the goatherds (identified as hundreds of Iraqi soldiers in one book) still had the bergens and equipment dumped by the patrol when they were discovered. He was able to return some items belonging to one of the men (later killed) back to his relatives in the UK.


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## plan_D (Mar 25, 2008)

I wasn't taking about "Bravo Two Zero". When it comes to Andy McNab I can't help but feel he's standing out to make some money; which is all well and good but there's thousands of other men who have endured the horrors of war and just continue with their lives. Nevertheless, McNab and Ryan still made that mission and HQ made mistakes that were highlighted by "Bravo Two Zero" - whether there were millions of Iraqis guiding tactical nukes at them or a few Iraqi children playing a deadly game of soldier make it all irrelevant to me. How many people who were shooting at them wasn't the reason the story was told. 

The SAS action in Oman '72 hasn't been covered by anyone else, as far as I'm aware and that's what I was talking about.


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## Emac44 (Mar 26, 2008)

Plan when the SAS Sabre Squadrons were operating in Vietnam. There are today still rumours as to what the Australian and New Zealand Sabre Squadrons were doing in Vietnam. One rumour persists that the North Vietnamese Government placed a bounty on each and every member of the Australian and New Zealand SAS in Vietnam. Most of what the SAS did in Vietnam would still be classified never to be released to the general public. Australian SAS have and were operating in Borneo at a similar time alongside British SAS. Dare say again Borneo activities would still be classified, And Australian SAS were sent into East Timor Somalia Bouganville over the last 15 years. As well as performing security duties for the 2000 Olympic Games in Sydney and the APEC Meetings in Sydney in 2007. But what is really apparent is the Australian SAS are specialists in Jungle and Desert Warfare besides their other training with other Special Services from around the World and of course with the major elements of the Australian Military Army Navy and Air Force. But this isn't to say they are the best in the World the Australian SAS but they perform outstanding duties and rank highly with their more prestigious Counter Parts around the World Militaries


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## plan_D (Mar 26, 2008)

I wouldn't disagree, and the British MoD certainly does not disagree. The Australian and New Zealand SASR are obviously considered capable enough to work alongside the British SAS; there's no reason to doubt that are equal to the British SAS teams. I'm sure both the SASR and SAS have shared training techniques and battle knowledge to both increase their abilities in the field. 

It's a wonder where some of these individuals are sometimes...


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## Emac44 (Mar 26, 2008)

plan_D said:


> I wouldn't disagree, and the British MoD certainly does not disagree. The Australian and New Zealand SASR are obviously considered capable enough to work alongside the British SAS; there's no reason to doubt that are equal to the British SAS teams. I'm sure both the SASR and SAS have shared training techniques and battle knowledge to both increase their abilities in the field.
> 
> It's a wonder where some of these individuals are sometimes...



That is a scarey thought Plan. From what I understand those whom have left the SAS Units British Australian or New Zealand have entered private enterprise for themselves as highly trained security in a variety of different fields and business. There is a high market and demand in this day and age that requires private security for numerous reasons. Former SAS fit snugly into these ranks of this type of private enterprise. And some as you have mentioned have written books about their time in the SAS Units


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## Engineer (Mar 26, 2008)

Oh dear...

It's sad to see how far Discovery has fallen. From "fairly" even-keeled, serious programs to infotainment - poor infotainment at that.

I guess they changed their target audience. Rather, I hope they did.


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## Soren (Mar 26, 2008)

??


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