# Cold war gone hot in Europe



## Cyrano (May 10, 2007)




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## 102first_hussars (May 10, 2007)

Well basically

the Russians had and still do have like 20 000 tanks, there would have been no stopping them, only Tactical nuclear weapons, and if that had of happened it would have escalated to ICBMs, and pretty much the end of the world


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## timshatz (May 10, 2007)

I have heard several times that they were on the verge in the Mid 80s of heading West. However, I am not sure how accurate the assertion is. It was given as one of the reason's for Reagan's Buildup and the Pershing 2s in Europe. My understanding is they saw the US as weak in the late 70s (which we were), realized they were in an economic pickle and thought they could pull it off. 

However, finding justifyable evidence of it is very tough. How do you prove something that never happened (outside of alien abductions and conspiricies)?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2007)

I can tell you from living with the US military community in Germany in the 80s on up, you are quite correct. 

The NATO forces in Germany would never have had a chance to defeat the Russians if they invaded. That was also the not the purpose of the forces in Germany though.

The US and other NATO forces were just a stop gap to hold the Russians and slow them down long eneogh for the rest of the US military and her allies England and everyone else to get there forces onto the continent in eneogh numbers to actually consider offensive operations.

The forces in Europe at the time all had a "footprint" of where they were to go in the case of attack. My fathers unit in the 80s "footprint" was the Fulda Gap for instance. 

It was actually a pretty tense time. We all had to carry cards that had a pic of Soviet Liscence plates and if we saw them, we were to immediatly notify the nearest military unit.


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## timshatz (May 10, 2007)

I remember the operational tests they used to run every summer. I think they were called "Operation Forager", to see if we could stop the Soviets and get the equipment over there. 

We never did. Either of the goals. Never worked. Air bridge seemed to work ok, shipping never got it together in time. But even with the air bridge, the Soviets made it to the Rhine. Every time. 

Usually ended up going nuclear. Tactical at first then....


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## Matt308 (May 10, 2007)

"Would you like to play a game?"


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2007)

timshatz said:


> I remember the operational tests they used to run every summer. I think they were called "Operation Forager", to see if we could stop the Soviets and get the equipment over there.
> 
> We never did. Either of the goals. Never worked. Air bridge seemed to work ok, shipping never got it together in time. But even with the air bridge, the Soviets made it to the Rhine. Every time.
> 
> Usually ended up going nuclear. Tactical at first then....




Are you talking about Reforger? That was the Germany wide maneuvers that we would perform. To bad we cant do it anymore because the whole country was a maneuver field. You would see Huey helicopters landing in the back of Guesthouses and M1 tanks driving though little German towns. It was really cool. The only that sucked was that a Hummer with a guy and checkbook was following each unit to pay out all the damages.


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## Cyrano (May 10, 2007)




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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2007)

All of them were a show of force actually if you think about it. A show of force for Europe to show them that NATO had a plan and at the same time to show the Russians that we were not playing around.

Ofcourse in all of this you get the best training for combat because there was not constraints and no "box".


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## timshatz (May 10, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Are you talking about Reforger? That was the Germany wide maneuvers that we would perform. To bad we cant do it anymore because the whole country was a maneuver field. You would see Huey helicopters landing in the back of Guesthouses and M1 tanks driving though little German towns. It was really cool. The only that sucked was that a Hummer with a guy and checkbook was following each unit to pay out all the damages.




Yeah, that was it. Reforger. Everybody geared up for WW3. I don't know about Germany (I suspect it was pretty clear over there what was going on and what it meant) but back here, it was a fiasco. At least in the Reserve units. Nobody had it together. Would've taken us a month just to figure out where everybody was. While some units had it together (mostly Air Wings and Reserve ships) and could head out in a week or so, most of the units just weren't ready for the Big One.


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## timshatz (May 10, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Are you talking about Reforger?



Memory like a sieve.


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## pbfoot (May 10, 2007)

i worked a 3 reforgers up in Goosebay the first or last refuelling site on this side of the pond . We'd launch a 141 every 20 minutes . The 141 would land crew change refuel and go . We;d also get flights of up to 20-30 Harriers , F4s 16's and 15's at a time it was really fun . If it was in the US inventory it passed through. The best was the Harriers arrived during the airshow.In the pic of the A3's you can see 3 141's and a whack of 130's in the back it was a humoungus ramp . Thats part of the USAF ramp the GAF and RAF also had some as well as CAF


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## Glider (May 10, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The only that sucked was that a Hummer with a guy and checkbook was following each unit to pay out all the damages.



I heard of a British Army Sargent who was charged as he took money from a Farmer to knock down an old barn with his tank, the idea being the farmer would claim for a new one.

General view was that it was, shall we say, not an unknown practice and he was plain stupid for getting caught.


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## Matt308 (May 10, 2007)

I'm very close with an old A3 driver. He later flew A-6s. He had good things to say about the A3. Great pics.


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## Haztoys (May 11, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> It was actually a pretty tense time. We all had to carry cards that had a pic of Soviet Liscence plates and if we saw them, we were to immediatly notify the nearest military unit.



You said I could ask dumb questions.. ... You opened the flood gates ...LOL

More on the liscence plates ... Were they going to come in cars.??? Or the tanks have liscence plates ... (Just being a wish but j/k)

But I would like more info on the plates..?? Plate on what..?


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (May 11, 2007)

I was wondering the same thing.


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## timshatz (May 11, 2007)

I think as part of the WW2 ending negotiations, the Soviets and Western Allies were allowed to drive around each other's territory. Not sure about the details but I remember reading that US troops would drive a jeep around East Berlin every so often as part of the agreement. 

Somebody else on the board doubtless knows more about it. Maybe some of the guys who live in Germany.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 11, 2007)

Glider said:


> I heard of a British Army Sargent who was charged as he took money from a Farmer to knock down an old barn with his tank, the idea being the farmer would claim for a new one.
> 
> General view was that it was, shall we say, not an unknown practice and he was plain stupid for getting caught.



It would not surprise me. The military back then was different and quite corrupt at times.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 11, 2007)

Haztoys said:


> You said I could ask dumb questions.. ... You opened the flood gates ...LOL
> 
> More on the liscence plates ... Were they going to come in cars.??? Or the tanks have liscence plates ... (Just being a wish but j/k)
> 
> But I would like more info on the plates..?? Plate on what..?



Military vehicals have liscense plates atleast in most countries. And if they do not have liscense plates then they have painted on ones for identification within there own units.

The cards had examples of what all these would like.


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## parsifal (Jan 21, 2016)

Attached is a review of the best commercial simulation of a hypothetical conflict on the central front of Europe. It was a controversial game at the time and attracted some voracious criticisms. still, the most complete and detailed attempt at a simulation for this scenario that I know.

ive played it several times. Russians are unstoppable at first, but if time passes their supply chain fails and by d+60, if the allies have survived without a one sided defeat, they can begin to inch back territory. Fighting in the Ruhr districts as the Russians was diabolical I recall and those airborne Apaches, Cobras and A-10s were just terrifying. f-111s did most of the deep penetration stuff, and the three wings of F-15s almost single handedly would regain air superiority within days. WP air forces were numerically strong at the start, but would inevitably take heavy losses to the NATO forces fighting them.

anyway, worth a look if you are interested

Map and Counters: SPI, THE NEXT WAR (1978)


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## GregP (Jan 22, 2016)

The military corrupt? Next you'll be telling me that Chicago Mayor Daily was really legally elected? And that Frank Sinatra didn't really know anybody in the Mafia. What is the world coming to?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 22, 2016)

GregP said:


> The military corrupt? Next you'll be telling me that Chicago Mayor Daily was really legally elected? And that Frank Sinatra didn't really know anybody in the Mafia. What is the world coming to?



Care to elaborate what I said that was not factual?


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## GregP (Jan 23, 2016)

No, it WAS factual. 

It was a joke. I was laughing when I posted it ...

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 23, 2016)

GregP said:


> No, it WAS factual.
> 
> It was a joke. I was laughing when I posted it ...



Sorry misunderstood you.


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## GregP (Jan 23, 2016)

No problemo, 

I apologize for the assumptions I made. I thought everyone knew Daley rigged (or was accused of it numerous times) the Chicago elections (his motto was "vote for me, early and often") and that Frank was kicked out of JFK's inner circle because of mob connections. Bad assumptions on my part.


I about fell off my chair when I read about the "corrupt" military. I was in the USAF from 1972 - 1976. They set themselves up for it. Take people who are in the service, pay them sub-poverty wages, and then give them access to tools and machinery that are worth a LOT of money. Patently stupid and absolutely guaranteed to generate some theft and resale. It's a good thing the aircraft are guarded by the Security Police or they'd start turning up at local airports.

I still have one small adjustable wrench that was issued to me in the Air Force, and it's only because I found it in the pocket of my field jacket some 2 years later, when I wore it for the first time after getting out. Still have that Field Jacket by the way. I know or, more properly, used to know guys who went home with their entire tool box and more.


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## tyrodtom (Jan 23, 2016)

I was in the military from 65-73, USAF and Army, during that time I never felt like I was getting paid a "sub poverty wage"
The people I did see that were corrupt, or I suspected were corrupt, were usually trying to pay for expensive habits they'd picked up entirely on their own.
In my last months in the military I was getting a little over $400 a month with pro pay. I immediately started making more than that once I got a civilian job, but not by much.
With what I got paid in the military I could have spent every last penny the day after payday, and I'd still have food , a place to stay, and if I needed medical care, free..


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## GregP (Jan 23, 2016)

I had food, medical care and a place to stay, too. That doesn't cut it for most 19 - 23 year olds. Most of them just wanted a Chevelle SS and a hot girlfriend. I didn't have a problem with the setup, but there were a LOT of guys who were groussing ALL THE TIME ab out the pay. If you had to LIVE on military pay, without the food, medical, and place to stay, it WAS sub-poverty wages. Fortunately for, I wasn't one of the guys who were just waiting to get out. I enjoyed myself and did what I could do and got along.

Some people complain about every place they go. Others find what they LIKE about a place, concentrate on that, and tend to gloss over the "bad times" in their minds. I have fond memories of the Air Force, but had an even better time on college, right after the Air Force, for the next few years until I became an engineer. I'm lucky. I was a electro-mechanical technician in the Air Force and was an Electrical Engineer after college, so I've seen it from both sides. I think that helped me deal with technicians better than some engineers I knew did because I knew generally what their questions might be later in life and had no difficulty relating.


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## tyrodtom (Jan 23, 2016)

BS Greg , I paid off 2 cars in 8 years I was in the military on that poverty wage.

Granted neither was a brand new car, but the last one was only a few months old when I got it in Texas.
And during part of that time I was getting flight pay, and then flight pay and combat pay, all tax free
.
But that wouldn't even cover 1/4 th of the time I was in the service.

Most of the time that I was overseas, I sent most of my money home to keep myself out of trouble.

Anyone who turned to graft to make extra money was using the low pay as a excuse, that just doesn't ring true in my experience.

I've got to admit though, if your idea of a good time was to drink, or smoke yourself into oblivion every night, then the pay didn't go far.


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## GregP (Jan 24, 2016)

Doesn't wash, Tom. My civilian wages just a couple of years later were many times military, my life style was WAY better even in college, and I wasn't tied to the chow hall, the military housing, or military health care (trainees, for the most part).

I had a good time in the Air Force, and I assume you did from you comments above. But it was the pits as far as opportunities for advancement go and getting ahead. I would not have traded it for a production job at the time, but the pay in the 1970s was far from OK. The only reason it was even reasonable is I was single and didn't have a family at the time. Had that been the case, they would have had some wants that I would not have desired to go unfulfilled. I was a 3 srtriper, not exactly at the top of the heap. I could have bought a car or two also, but not if I had a wife and kids. It was either - or, not both.

No pissing contest here, but if you thought it was OK, we have different ideas of what that means. As a single person, you could do fine. The families I knew were happy but forced to be too frugal for my tastes.

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective and, if so, that is fine. Had I been, say, a Captain getting flight pay, I might have a different view of things. All I ever wanted to do was fly ... but enlisted people didn't do that much those days ... maybe Warrant Officers in UH-1s. I worked on Minuteman ICBM sites and LCFs. It was work, but not what I'd choose for a life's career. I'd have been happier with an A & P, but we didn't get to choose. The people in "Dreams and Schemes" did, and it wasn't my first or second choice that I got, much like a lot of other people. So, it was OK for a time but I would not have stayed in in that AFSC (316X0G).

Perhaps another one that I chose instead of some AF planner. At least I had a good look at South Dakota and Vanderburg AFB.

Ain't BS, it's what I KNOW to be true, at least for my tastes. You feel differently, and that's fine. We all had our own experiences.

My idea of a good time wasn't what you said above, but thanks for the good thoughts. I never said things like that to you. Why come to me with crap like that? You don't know me at all.

But then again, it's just what the officers at the time thought, too. They figured we were getting what we needed and should have been satisfied. But they never noticed that they were the only ones driving Corvettes. None of the enlisted guys were that I knew, except for Don Garlitis' brother ... Don gave him a nice car, and yes, it was fast.

Here's a Military pay chart from the times.







I was an E-4. What were you? With flight pay? Look at an E-4 pay (monthly) and tell me you;d have been happy with it and would have paid off 2 cars in 8 years.


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## GregP (Jan 24, 2016)

Well, it didn't display. Google Military pay chart 1970; you'll find it.

E-4 was $231 to $290 per MONTH. A far cry from what people who were flying were making. The really sad part is I already had a pilot's license, but couldn't fly at all in the USAF, even in a club, because there wasn't enough money to do it. When I got out, I flew while in college!

If you were flying you got 2.5 - 3 times the base pay plus flight pay and probably separate rations and maybe off-base housing allowance. I suppose I'd have been pretty happy with that, too.

Ah well, it was what it was and the missiles were ready if needed. I am very happy they weren't and hope it continues in that direction. And, I don't need the pay anymore.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 24, 2016)

Lets get along gentlemen...


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## tyrodtom (Jan 24, 2016)

I made it to E-5 3 times in 8 years, so I wasn't mr. perfect. I'm not saying the pay was perfect, just that it was a sub-poverty wage is a gross exaggeration.
My older brother was 20 years in the Army, got out in 78, a E8. Raised 5 kids, had a farm in the Ft. Bragg/Fayetteville area, sold it and retired locally. My older sister also married to a career enlisted man in the USAF, 3 kids.
I'm pretty well acquainted with the military, and all the disadvantages. Also pretty well acquainted with poverty, I live in the Appalachians , you know, the infamous old "poverty pocket".

When I was in Germany, at Wildflecken, the mountain warfare training area for NATO, I talked enough with British and German army troops to know we were better paid than them. I don't think I would be off the mark to say we were the best paid military in the western world at the time.

But to use that low pay as a ready made excuse for theft and corruption though, is just wrong.

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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 24, 2016)

If you managed your money based on where you were deployed, you lived pretty well and it seems members of the US armed forces made more than some of their allied counterparts. I had friends and family who served between the 1960s and well into the 1980s and they didn't complain too much. I did the reserves in the 1990s and I was well in my 30s. The pay for active duty reservists wasn't bad and most people I knew did well, and this was even during the Clinton years where military personnel were not seeing pay raises. When Bush 2 came into office we saw pay raises, but at that point I was getting out. I have to agree with tom;

"The people I did see that were corrupt, or I suspected were corrupt, were usually trying to pay for expensive habits they'd picked up entirely on their own."

Then you have POSs like this:

Soldiers among 4 in Fort Carson weapons, gear theft ring


I dated a girl from Luxemburg - she worked in Germany and told me when she was young, US servicemen who were deployed in Europe were always a better catch for local women because they made more money. At the same time she said many of her friends avoided anyone under E-6. Any officer was a bonus!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 24, 2016)

tyrodtom said:


> I made it to E-5 3 times in 8 years, so I wasn't mr. perfect. I'm not saying the pay was perfect, just that it was a sub-poverty wage is a gross exaggeration.
> My older brother was 20 years in the Army, got out in 78, a E8. Raised 5 kids, had a farm in the Ft. Bragg/Fayetteville area, sold it and retired locally. My older sister also married to a career enlisted man in the USAF, 3 kids.
> I'm pretty well acquainted with the military, and all the disadvantages. Also pretty well acquainted with poverty, I live in the Appalachians , you know, the infamous old "poverty pocket".
> 
> ...



Good old Wildflecken. Lots of good memories there.

As for best paid military, we have not been that for a while now. Both the British, Germans and Canadians have surpassed us, and by a wide margain.

Many soldiers E-4 and below with families now rely on subsidation and food programs to buy food and diapers for there families.

The military has changed...


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## tyrodtom (Jan 24, 2016)

I was in Germany right at the time they revalued the mark. It was very hard on the young married enlisted living off post.
Their rents suddenly went up, but it was several months before their living allowance went up to compensate.

The Army's attitude on low ranking enlisted being married was covered by the old joke, "If the army wanted you to have a wife, they would have issued you one"

Wildflechen had on post housing but not enough to go around, the waiting list was long. One married friend brought his wife over and rented a small apartment downtown, they had a struggle, but stayed together. My roommate was married too, he waited until post housing was available before he brought his wife over, waited over a year. By the time he got his wife there, the marriage was gone.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 24, 2016)

I always had off post housing in Germany.

I hate to say it, but my standard of living was much higher than on post Army standards.


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## GregP (Jan 24, 2016)

I'm sure we have great stories on why we were busted. It might make a good thread.


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