# Wooden Aircraft Wheels



## GrauGeist (Aug 19, 2009)

Ran across this photograph a while back, thought it was real interesting.

Aparently, they were using wheels made of wood to move the P-51s around the North American facility in Inglewood while the aircraft was being assembled.

When the aircraft was ready for tests, the regular wheels tires were installed.

This appears to be an early model P-51...


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## vikingBerserker (Aug 19, 2009)

Very interesting, but it does remind me of the Flintstones.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Aug 19, 2009)

You just need Fred's feet coming through the bottom to get it moving. 


Wheels


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## evangilder (Aug 19, 2009)

Makes sense though. I would imagine with metal shavings, rivets and other pieces that may find their way to the floor, using a wooden tire would keep the rubber ones from getting punctured. Rubber was an essential war material in those days.


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## ccheese (Aug 19, 2009)

Good idea, wasn't it ? .... I'm glad I thought of it ... 

Charles


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## Gnomey (Aug 19, 2009)

Certainly a good idea but a very interesting one at that!


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## Airframes (Aug 19, 2009)

Now Ii never knew that, thanks Dave. Wood you think they wheely wood work??!! OK, I'll get me coat....


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## Colin1 (Aug 19, 2009)

Are they BF Woodriches?


I'll see myself out...


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## Airframes (Aug 19, 2009)

Judging by the grain, I think they're Woodyear....ok, I get the message....


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## vikingBerserker (Aug 19, 2009)

They kinda look like Tree-lleborg tires to me.

Thank you, thank you. I'm here all night guys.....


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## pbfoot (Aug 19, 2009)

evangilder said:


> Makes sense though. I would imagine with metal shavings, rivets and other pieces that may find their way to the floor, using a wooden tire would keep the rubber ones from getting punctured. Rubber was an essential war material in those days.


Very correct , I'm aware of an attempt to save rubber was made by an RCAF unit during WW2 whereby they attached beercaps to the tires to save on wear and tear and prolong the life of the tires . They flew the Harvard with the caps and when they retracted the tires they failed to consider the Xtra diameter of the tires so the tire made a hell of a racket as they retracted the pilots applied the brakes to stop the wheels and hence the racket . Tho only problem was they failed to release the brakes which caused the Harvard to nose over on landing.


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## BikerBabe (Aug 19, 2009)

Could it be a _branch _of _Wood_stone tyres? 
Oh my, it's hard to get to the _root _of things here...Sry...*_ducks and runs_* 

Fascinating find, though.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 19, 2009)

Ok...sooooo...

Then wooden tires really can't be "Fire Stones" then could they?

Honestly, seeing these wheels makes me wonder just how many innovations were used that never got documented, or passed by the wayside after the war wound down. Unique things that you wouldn't give a second glance to with it sitting in a junk heap, but at some point was a very important component in the war production.


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## michaelmaltby (Aug 19, 2009)

Great post GG  Really makes you think...

MM


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## Airframes (Aug 20, 2009)

It is a good post, and an intersting shot of a A36/P51A , with cannon, in RAF colours - fairly rare.
As for other innovations, I vaguley recall my Dad telling me about the Italians using wooden bullets in North Africa. Now I'm sure this is throwing things wide open to such quips as 'splinter wounds', but apparently they were very effective, if not wholly accurate, and caused horrific wounds, due, no doubt, to their breakin-up partially on impact, a sort of 'frangible round'. I had read a little of these since being told, many, many years ago, and apparently they were 'ilegal' under the various International conventions of the time, being classed the same as the so called 'Dum Dum' rounds.
So, from wooden wheels to a 'plastic' Spitfire (yes, there was one!), are there any other interesting pics like this?


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## BikerBabe (Aug 20, 2009)

Airframes said:


> It is a good post, and an intersting shot of a A36/P51A , with cannon, in RAF colours - fairly rare.
> As for other innovations, I vaguley recall my Dad telling me about the Italians using wooden bullets in North Africa. Now I'm sure this is throwing things wide open to such quips as 'splinter wounds', but apparently they were very effective, if not wholly accurate, and caused horrific wounds, due, no doubt, to their breakin-up partially on impact, a sort of 'frangible round'. I had read a little of these since being told, many, many years ago, and apparently they were 'ilegal' under the various International conventions of the time, being classed the same as the so called 'Dum Dum' rounds.
> So, from wooden wheels to a 'plastic' Spitfire (yes, there was one!), are there any other interesting pics like this?



Hmmm, won't the wooden bullet burn up in the barrel of the rifle/gun?
And if it does escapes the barrel, my guess is that you'd have to shoot someone at point blank to do just a minimum of damage.
As far as I remember, wooden bullets are usually used as blanks, you know, at ceremonies that cemands a salute, or as training blanks, or for firing grenades. 
Compared with metal, wood is incredibly light, so compared with a metal bullet, there isn't much energy/velocity/mass, if the wood bullet manages to get out of the barrel.
And how does the wooden bullet affect the barrel of the rifle?
If it splinters in the barrel, my guess is that the barrel won't last nearly as long as it does with a metal bullet.
It doesn't sound very cost effective to me, if you compare the possible damage to the rifle/gun, compared with the average metal bullet. That is, if we're talking about a non-jacketed bullet made of wood. 
I don't know how the bullet would react to being fired if a cabot was used (I don't even know when the cabot was invented back then...), but again I find it hard to believe that such an invention was used back then, due to the extra time and effort it would cost to implement such ammunition.
But I'm definitely curious. 
Dang, now you've got me seriously pondering writing an e-mail to a forensic firearm expert I know...!


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## GrauGeist (Aug 20, 2009)

Terry, wouldn't it be an awesome project to put together a reference that had all the obscure things involved in World War II, like the wooden wheels or the bottlecaps like pb mentioned?

I think that this many years after WWII would make it a very tough challenge, but I bet there's still enough people out there that might remember things like that!

BB, wooden bullets were alot sturdier than you might think. I've heard that the Japanese used wooden bullets in the Pacific. Supposedly, the reason was that thier concern for "overshoot" in confined engagements may lead to friendly fire, and used the wooden bullets knowing they were only lethal to 50 - 60 yards. I'm not sure how true that is, but many other nations (except the U.S.) used wooden bullets as training rounds for the most part.

Wooden bullets shouldn't harm the barrel of the rifle, as with any use of the weapon, clean it thoroughly after each use! 

Most of your blanks are made of a light charge capped with a paper or light cardboard wad. Some just use nothing more than the primer in a short casing to make a report.


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## Airframes (Aug 21, 2009)

Thanks Dave, you answered more or less as I was going to - saved me the job! 
Maria, blanks used in training, i.e. on military exrecises, are normally what is known as a 'bulleted blank', meaning the cartridge case length is extended to form the bullet shape, so that chambering in auto, or semi-auto weapons can be effected without causing a stoppage. This 'extension' is simply crimped at the end, to close rhe casing. The charge, and the wadding, are enough to cause quite serious injury at close range, and there is_ never _any form of bullet, wooden, paper or otherwise, used in this type of round. Ammunition used to launch rifle grenades is mostly of the ballastite cartridge type, which is a blank, as described above, but with a much more powerful charge - and a kick like an angry mule! However, with some smaller calibre infantry weapons, including that heap of c**p, the British L85 5.56mm, a live round can be used to launch the grenade (!!), which strikes a 'striker plate' within the launch tube of the grenade. The thinking behind this being that it saves carrying two types of ammunition on 'ops', and the possible problems associated with this. 
Wooden rifle ammunition was once used in training by some armies, and it was effective out to about 150 to 200 metres, with an initial M.V. of around 2,500 f.p.s. depending on calibre/weapon, although this dropped off rapidly, hence the short range. I believe the bullets were of a hard wood, ebony or mahogany, both of which are dense enough to maintain balistics in flight.


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## BikerBabe (Aug 21, 2009)

GG and Airframes, I've heard the opposite, that's why I pondered asking someone who has got the possibility to test the wooden bullet kind of ammo. 
And about the paper/cardboard variety - that's what's being used today, but what about back then?
What I'm looking for is a forensic expert report online on wooden bullets - links, anyone?


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## vikingBerserker (Aug 21, 2009)

IIRC, Sir Sidney Smith did some type of study of wooden bullets or bullets with wood in them used in Egypt. I think he felt they were just as effective as regular ammo. I have his biography somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it up for more info.


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## Airframes (Aug 22, 2009)

That sounds interesting VB.
Maria, training ammunition, that is blanks, hasn't changed much in the last 80 years or so. It sounds likely that VB's info will probably/possibly answer your question better than I can. Although I'm not a foresenic expert in the field of ammunition and ballsitics, since leaving the armed forces, I have been involved, for the last 16 years, in lecturing on infantry weapons of the 20th (and early 21st) century, and have also been called as an 'Expert Witness', to Crown Court, on firearems issues on three occassions. My miitary qualifications include Weapons Instructor, Skill at Arms Instructor, Range Supervisor and Assistant Armourer.


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## vikingBerserker (Aug 22, 2009)

I stand corrected. I found the book _ Mostly Murder_ by Sir Sydney Smith and it was talking about paper pulp, not wood.

"There was an amusing sequel {to an earlier investigation involving shootings by British soldiers}. Among the projectiles which I found in the bodies were a few bullet-tips composed not of aluminium but of paper pulp. I reported this fact to the War Office in London, suggesting first that some contractor was using paper pulp as a substitute for alumimium, and secondly that, since the paper-pulp tip seemed to serve the same function (if any) as the aluminium tip, it might pay them to discontinue the use of aluminium." [page 90]

Their response was that it was not cheaper as the paper had to be sterlized so that the wound would not get infected.


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## Junkers88A1 (Aug 22, 2009)

hi

i am not home at the moment but when i get home i will post some pics of german 7,92mm wodden bullets.
now the funny thing,,they have dummybullets that does not fire..what we in norway call a click cartridge..as they are just to save the firepin from getting damage.. now i found several boxes of these.. and they also have live wodden bullets ( they look the same but the click cartridge has some tracks further down on the shell that is not present on the live ones.. this is did not noticed so when testing my mauser rifle indoor showing it to a friend i usually put one of those click bullets inside..well..suddenly i learned that some were alive..and man.. that wodden bullet made a hole in my wodden wall from 10 feet and also wodden spliters all over the wall.. guess who stood there with his mouth wide open.. b oth of us.. and that was how i learned the difference of the two bullets.. will pist pics when i get home on tuesday  and yes..i had to tear down the panels on my wall and put up new


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## vikingBerserker (Aug 22, 2009)

Man, what a way to find out -


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## GrauGeist (Aug 22, 2009)

Junkers88A1 said:


> hi
> 
> i am not home at the moment but when i get home i will post some pics of german 7,92mm wodden bullets.
> now the funny thing,,they have dummybullets that does not fire..what we in norway call a click cartridge..as they are just to save the firepin from getting damage.. now i found several boxes of these.. and they also have live wodden bullets ( they look the same but the click cartridge has some tracks further down on the shell that is not present on the live ones.. this is did not noticed so when testing my mauser rifle indoor showing it to a friend i usually put one of those click bullets inside..well..suddenly i learned that some were alive..and man.. that wodden bullet made a hole in my wodden wall from 10 feet and also wodden spliters all over the wall.. guess who stood there with his mouth wide open.. b oth of us.. and that was how i learned the difference of the two bullets.. will pist pics when i get home on tuesday  and yes..i had to tear down the panels on my wall and put up new


Good God man! Good thing no one was down range of that muzzle!


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## Airframes (Aug 22, 2009)

Heck Guttorm, you were darned lucky! Good job the weapon was pointed at the wall!
The 'click' bullets are known as Drill Rounds in the British armed forces, and normally have a bright steel or alloy cartidge case, with channels or grooves down the length of the casing. Where the primer cap would normally fit is an open depression, painted red (as are the channels initially, but this wears with time), to aid in instant recognition, for obvious safety purposes. Most often, the bullet head is a real, although inert, Ball bullet head, although hardwood heads have been used in the past. They are made and used, as you rightly state, for Drills (exercises), in order to prevent damage to the firing pin and bolt-head of weapons.These 'drills' are for loading chambers, magazines, belts etc, and for learning how to clear stoppages and so on. One of the very first safety notes in all weapons training/ammunition issue pamphlets clearly states that blank and Drill Rounds, must NEVER be mixed, and also the same with live/blank/drill - for fairly obvious reasons!!


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## Junkers88A1 (Aug 22, 2009)

i agree. but it sure made me aware of german ww2 bullets in wood and how they worked. when i get home i will post pictures so ycan see the difference on click cartridges and live wodden bullets ! and it sure made two guys standing there with wide open mouths and wondering what the heck just happened.. lol


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## Junkers88A1 (Aug 22, 2009)

and you are quite right airframe.. it was just that i found a huge box filled with these from WW2 and they were mixed so i dident noticed the difference on the live and the inert until one made a large hole in my wall

and i never point a weapon at anybody ever.. even if i know the chamber is empty. and that showed just how dangerous it can be..as i "knew" the bullet inside was inert as i had operated on one earlier to see what was inside,. and it was cotton instead of gunpowder.. but when i learned that some was live i studied them more and the difference was fast obvious..


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## Junkers88A1 (Aug 25, 2009)

here is the promised pictures of the wodden german bullets..and as you see it was not easy to actually identify the ones that are inert as the inert has the small markings around the casing further down.. on this picture its 6 live bullets and one inert. and they do make a nice bang and also a nice hole in thick wood from 3 feet..so obvious pretty dangerous. and not easy to see those tracks if you are not aware of the difference ( as i was not aware of..when i first found them i treated them as live..as i dident know what they were..but tested one..nothing happened..opened it and it was filled with cotton.. so i was sure that they all were the same and harmless.. NOT..and typical my luck..just picking one out of several hundreds in boxes i managed to test a click cartridge first..later i learned that they were not the same types..and that was quite a job to remake the whole livingroom wall..hehe ) i have no idea why the heads are in different colours as that has nothing to do if its live or inert ( click cartridge )

on the ones you see the bottomn of the one to the right is the live one


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## Junkers88A1 (Aug 25, 2009)

sorry..the one to the LEFT is the live one.. hehe


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## Airframes (Aug 25, 2009)

Thanks Guttorm, interesting stuff, the inert round appears to have a 'soft' filling inside the annulus, where the percussion cap would normally be. I also see you've hit your thumb with a hammer, or jammed it somehow! I thought I heard some Norwegian curses wafting across the North Sea!!


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## Junkers88A1 (Aug 25, 2009)

you have a good eyesight there pal..but its not a hammer..it was the precusionbolt in th Mp 40..thumb in the chamber and fire.. yes..that equals curses spelld far out into the north sea..hehe

sometimes things seems very smart inside my head but often something happens on the way out..and then i get resaults like that lol


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## woodhaven (Aug 14, 2016)




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## Capt. Vick (Aug 14, 2016)

Ah! An addition!


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## Wurger (Aug 14, 2016)

Nice shots.


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## tyrodtom (Aug 14, 2016)

OK, why the wooden wheels on the Mustang ?

I notice some joker wrote " do not inflate " on one.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 14, 2016)

To conserve rubber while the airframes were being assembled and moved about the Inglewood facility.

Once the airframe was finalized, the rubber tires were fitted.


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