# The Me-262 variants.



## Henk (Feb 10, 2006)

This gentleman is the last Me-262 night fighter of WW2 that got to operational status and did fly on a few missions.

Here is some pictures of it. 






















Check out this link and look almost under the title Me 262B in detail you will see three links that will show you detail pictures of the aircraft.

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2002/04/stuff_eng_detail_me262b.htm#links

Henk


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## Gnomey (Feb 11, 2006)

Good stuff Henk, nice pics too.


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## Dogwalker (Feb 11, 2006)

Cool.

DogW


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## Twitch (Feb 11, 2006)

Does it say anywhere what pilot may have flown it?


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## evangilder (Feb 11, 2006)

Interesting!


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## Henk (Feb 11, 2006)

No, I wish they gave that info. Maybe if you track down the squadron it fought in you may get its pilot. The pictures of that link was taken a long time ago, because when I was at the museum it looked brand new and not like it looked there.

I wish I could show you my pictures but they just do not want to upload, but I will try again soon.

Henk[/img]


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## Henk (Feb 12, 2006)

Now I changed the topic to be able to talk about all the Me-262 variants and prototypes build during the war.

This picture below is strange and does not look real. What do you think?






This Me-62 is supposed to been captured by the Russians after the war but I have never seen such a Me-262 or never heard of such prototype.

Henk


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 12, 2006)

I believe it is real - There was a topic abuot it not so long ago.


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## Gnomey (Feb 12, 2006)

Is that not one of the bomber versions? I think it was called something like Schnell-bomber or something.


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 12, 2006)

"A single "Me-262-2a/U1" Sturmvogel derivative was built with an experimental bombsight system, and one or two "Me-262A-2a/U2s" Sturmvogel derivatives were built with glass noses and a Lotfe 7H bombsight for a prone bombardier to permit horizontal bombing. Neither of these experiments proved successful."

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avme262.html#m7


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## Henk (Feb 12, 2006)

Thank you.

Henk


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 12, 2006)

It was also proposed to be used as a Mistel. The bombadier would lay in the nose and control the pilotless Me-262 from there.


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## Henk (Feb 12, 2006)

Oh thank you mate, do have a link with all the info about this project please?

Henk


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 12, 2006)

I posted a link on this page earlier with some minor info about the bomber project, but I have none about the mistel project. Ill try and find something.


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## Henk (Feb 12, 2006)

Thanks man anything will do about the strange Me-262.

Henk


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## Twitch (Feb 12, 2006)

Was thinking it would be cool if the 262 was flown by the top jet ace Kurt Welter who got 25 at night in the 262.


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## Henk (Feb 12, 2006)

'Red 8' operated with Kurt Welter's 10./NJG II at Magdeburg. The Me-262 night fighter at Jobur Museum is called Red 8. 

I think that Red 8 was piloted by Welter. I E-mailed the Museum where Red 8 stand in Joburg and I will post what they said and will come back to you.

Read this.

Not more than fifteen of the trainers were built before the Luftwaffe identified an even greater need, an aircraft which could combat the growing number of RAF Mosquito night fighters which were roaming the night skies of the Reich with impunity preying on German night fighters like the Ju-88, Bf-110, and He-219. This quest led to the impressive Me-262B-1a/U1 night fighter, fitted with FuG-218 Neptun long-wavelength search radar and its attendant Hirschgeweih (Stag antlers) antennae as well as Naxos centimetric-radar-homing gear that detected the H2S radar scanners of RAF bombers. The Hirschgeweih slowed the aircraft down but it was still faster than the Mosquito. . The type was put through trials in October 1944 by the well-known Hajo Hermann and during the following winter, Kurt Welter, head of Kommando Stamp, used Me-262A-1a day fighters for Wilde Sau (Wild Boar) tactics , a type of visual night fighting done in conjunction with ground-based searchlights, and in April the unit obtained a few of the Me-262B-1a/U1 night-fighter variants. Despite all the difficulties, Welter claimed 20 kills, making him one of the first jet aces and likely the highest-scoring jet ace in all history. By the end of the war, Messerschmitt was working on a prototype of the improved Me-262B-2a night fighter with a longer fuselage, increased fuel capacity, and most importantly Berlin centimetric radar, with improved range and resolutions and a dish hidden in the nose, instead of the clumsy and drag-inducing Hirschgeweih of the long-wavelength radar. 

This comes from www.studenten.net/customasp/ axl/profile.asp?cat_id=10&ple_id=97 - 42k.

Here are a few pictures of how she looks today from triplane.net









































Henk


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## KraziKanuK (Feb 12, 2006)

Welter's claim of 25 in the 262 are suspect. Erich??

According Herert Altner, probably on 4 Me262B-1a/U1s saw service with 10./NJG11, a 2cd 'red' 8, WNr 110305, 'red' 9, 'red' 10, WNr 110635, and 'red' 12, WNr 111980(Altner). They flew 5 sorties and claimed3 Mossies. 

The Classic 262 series has numerous color photos of the SA 262.


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## Erich (Feb 12, 2006)

Welters rig was suppose to be red 10 whcih he never flew, no one flew red 8 either on missions, only Herbert Altner flew 3 mission in red 12 and scored only 1 mossie, the rest of the kills were in single seat jobs. Sorry Henk your info is bogus.

I have researched Kommando Welter for over 30 years and the info will be in my book Moskito-jagd über Deutschland.

v/r E


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## Twitch (Feb 13, 2006)

Why does every source attribute about 25 nite kills to Welter then?

Henk superb series of pics of that plane!


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## Henk (Feb 13, 2006)

Thanks Twitch. Guys I posted it not because I said it was true I posted it so that someone who knows will say if it is true or not.

Someone or some other museum wanted to buy Red 8 but the Joburg museum said now way and the sum that was offerd was quite large, but they still said no.

Henk


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## Erich (Feb 13, 2006)

Frankly it is unlear what type of kills or how many Welter had, he never flew the two seater ok got it ?

Personally I have talked with only 1 experten on 10./NJG 11 besides myself and that is my co-author and friend G. Permann along with the Kommando Welter veterans we have interviewed. It will be covered all in our book gents. Red 8 is a wonderful jet of an experiment that was too late. Welter knew that to continue the war against the RAF heavies that a two seater with radar operator and streamlined internal tanks and possibly SM intallation would have to be needed, sadly with radar equipping the existing two seater developed it would of slowed down the craft by at leat 100mph thus it could be caught by Mossie XXX's this is the reason why the fearless single seat nf pilots said bunk to the two seater version B-1a. The B-2a would of come into being had the war continued into the fall of 45 and we have the plans-schematics that we will share in our book with the newer radar layouts and fuel-cell configuration(s) planned.

Welter kills have been reported as fact for too many years at least 50 in old books that have never once interviewed anyone close to this stelath of a figure of a man. No more, we will give you the clues behind him and the jets ............ by the way I have the whole layout from the museum on Red 8 from some years ago.

v/r E


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## Twitch (Feb 15, 2006)

It has always been stated that his kills were flying a standard single-seat Me 262 a-1 aircraft in Wilde Sau tactics, ie, without onboard radar! In my only conversation with Hajo Hermann many years ago he made a simple statement that Welter was the "the best night jet ace." I would have pressed the point for more details if I'd known something would be in doubt a decade later.


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## Erich (Feb 15, 2006)

Welter was probably the most sucessful night flying ace with the jet but maybe not the best in his own unit. Welter was an extrmely gifted "eyed" night flyer with an uncanny sense for the enemy in the air, and he was also a drunk and this last statement will be shown sadly through our work. He never flew the two seater and most kills against the Mossie were done in the Fw 190A and the Bf 109G-6/AS before he own involvement with tests in December 44 with the single seat 262 and Arado.
another note the Kommando Welter flew helle nacht missions not the wilde Sau of old which was terminated after JG 300 left those missions in the spring of 44. In fact the 10.(N)/JG 300 staffel that Welter was very active and successful in flew Helle Nacht missions using lanes of searchlights to broadcast the whereabouts of Mossies of the LSNF forces towards and from Berlin


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## Twitch (Feb 15, 2006)

There are those who believe that Greg "Pappy" Boyington is a not worthy of recognition simply because he was an S.O.B. and heavy drinker. For true aficianados of fighter pilots they know being a hard drinker pretty much goes hand in hand with flying fighters. I know 1sthand that most still can tie one on in their 80s! My and many peoples' take on that is simply that we acknowledge and celebrate their achievements while in the air and during the war. It's not up to us to judge. Their skills in the air outweigh everything else.

As one write to another I ask you please don't dwell on personal faults of the pilots. Readers truly don't care if Welter got stone drunk and went around the base shooting up aircraft with his pistol. Put that in the manuscript sure but don't demonize him for it. What they care about are details of his time in the cockpit flaming a Mosquito that never saw him.


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## Erich (Feb 15, 2006)

I simply do not need to be told on how to write and research this unit. have done studies with vets and the association with Night fighter missions since 1964. From the outset some 35 years ago it was my plan to release a work that was truthful in it's entire content instead of producing well know speculation. Demonize him we will not but will give him credit where credit is due, and on the other hand we will give the reasons about his womanizing and drunken beahviour with other pilots, and in fact there is one in particular that will have nothing to do with our work because of the truth that lies within.

We have the complete confirmation records of kills of the units not some silly unknownst 45-75 kills that have been broadcasted for over 50 years. I have seen them and no cross checking was done till recently when finally the eastern borders of Germany were opend and we were fortunate to get into contact with a well know German author who had many files upon the unit just saved before they fell into Soviet hands when Burg airfield was blown off the map. As he did not care to release the documents through a book of his own he allowed us the materials.

does this make sense ? and I must asure you the whole picture as possible will be clarified and that, my writer friend is of interest to all especially since the Kommando has remained stealth and for good reason. Welter never did confide totally with his RAF and RCAF captors about certain secret elements that were going on the last two months of the war; factually he died with many of them laying at his bedside buried in a communal grave with good friends and relatives


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## Henk (Feb 15, 2006)

100mph, no never. The two seater was well equiped for night fighting duties and had great radar on board to be able to fight the heavys. Well about the kills of the pilots I do not know anything.

well the Brits gave the plane without a lot of things not onboard aand without its guns, why the hell did they do this?

Henk


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## Erich (Feb 15, 2006)

Henk it was hoped even with out the 100 mile per hour loss that it could catch RAF heavies and it could at the presumed speed it was designed with at least for the B-1a but we will never know about this since not one two seater intercepted any RAF 4 engine bomber. As I mentioned with the new B-2a things would of tunred out quite differently and quite unexpected for the RAF as losses would of risen to critical levels. The neptun radar would of been replaced by a new AI version already proven in late war Ju 88G-6's unjammed along with teleprinter unjammed for easier ground to air detection.

all in all what-ifs of course with the war ending not in the Germans favour.

Remember that many Lancasters/Hali's did not have a belly turret due to anti-jamming devices located within, but I will let that be as our English membership can fill us in more on that ........

E


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## Henk (Feb 15, 2006)

Well I do not know if any Me-262 night fighters flew during the war and I am trying to find out now.

What ifs are nice to talk about.

Henk


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## Erich (Feb 15, 2006)

think and read clearly my postings on this thread you started as well as go back to the archivs as I have let loose materials that will be in one of our books.

read this and understand please........

1 Mosquito kill by 1 two seat Me 262B-1a night fighter flown by pilot and ace Herbert Altner.

the rest of the kills were scored in the single seat Me 262A-1a including several day kills in late spring of 45. you'll have fun reading about one French cocky ace/Typhoon pilot who just about was smeared all over German territory. his wingman was torn apart/ more like vaporized by 3cm Minengeschoss rounds and the French ace attributed it to 2cm ground Fla which is wasn't.....all recorded in our book. You already know whom the Frenchman is ..... with his two silly books

Verstehen sie ??

Erich ~


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## delcyros (Feb 15, 2006)

I am looking forward to read this book, keep up the good work, Erich.


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## Henk (Feb 15, 2006)

Thanks Erich

Henk


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## Erich (Feb 15, 2006)

Friends we are trying, the book was suppose to be out to the public 3 years ago, but we have enhanced it greatly with more text, maps and photos. A complicated work which you will see when you read it. Still not done with some of the personal interviews and athough memories start to get foggy over time some new and quite interesting recollections are appearing .....

Gruß


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## Henk (Feb 15, 2006)

I hope it is not expensive, lol. I love WW2 books and will buy it if I see it after it is published.

Henk


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## me262 (Feb 15, 2006)

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## Henk (Feb 15, 2006)

Well, I am not going to start a fight about this but why do you think I say Horten 229 and not the others? Who designed the aircraft?

Horten IX was the first name and later became known as the Horten 229 and after Gotha got the contract to contract to build the aircraft people said Gotha 229. I do not agree with that if because of the guys who build it. 

Please read the right information and read careful and you will see why I and many other say so.

Henk


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## me262 (Feb 15, 2006)

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## Henk (Feb 15, 2006)

Mylelf and others call it the Horten 229 because of respect towards the Horten brothers for all the work they did. The Horten brothers build the first Horten 229 so it should be called it. Gothat never completed a aircraft except a half finnished one.

Controle of the building of the Horten 229 never actualy changed, the Horten's were still involved.

Like I said mate please read up on this.

Henk


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## me262 (Feb 15, 2006)

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## Henk (Feb 15, 2006)

Do you have any books about the Horten 229?

Henk


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## me262 (Feb 15, 2006)

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## Henk (Feb 15, 2006)

What is there names?

Henk


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## me262 (Feb 15, 2006)

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## Twitch (Feb 16, 2006)

Erich- I wasn't telling you how to write anything. I am simply appealing to you to please not degrade Welter or any ace by emphasising their faults. Every man who climbed into a cockpit is a demi-god to me and it's there where the magic comes from. As example I've had people say Hans Rudel's fantastic record is meaningless due to his Nazi sympathies. I say that's crazy since his accomplishments are what they are. anyhow perhaps that's just me. :black:


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## Erich (Feb 16, 2006)

wouldn't you like a book that is true to its word like reality. As I stated credit will be given where credit is due. Please do not freak out, and no we should not worship any of these guys. hardly, through my vet interviews whether US or German they have all said we are no heros so quit worshipping us like we are. we are simple men that did our duty with different belief systems.

please stop harping on Welter as he is only just a small cog in the bigger picture of the Moskito-jagd since it's inception. He did not start nor invent it. He was a talented pilot but his scoring must be looked at closely which we have done and he was a Nachtjäger propaganda tool cleverly used by the powers above him. I will say it again do not come up with hypothetical reasoning, wait for the book to be displayed and then decide for yourself 

I say this also in regard to my wartime relatives serving in the Heer and Luftwaffe, one was in fact a Night fighter ace and Gruppenkommanduer before his untimely accidnetal death. We have no reason to tear apart a mans career but truth must be known simply like the excellent research indicating for both sides of the conflicts in the air, not just a strong push for one sides reasoning which is nearly 90 % of the books thus written and will continue to be written. First hand accounts are rare which is easy to understand, our work will not be one of generalities nor the other two I am working on.

I'll quit now before the emotions push me over the edge ....


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## Twitch (Feb 16, 2006)

Hey don't get worked up; it's ok; forget about it. Sorry, I won't bring up the subject again.


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## Henk (Feb 17, 2006)

me262 said:


> luftwaffe secret projects: fighters 1935-1945 by walter schick and ingolf meyer.
> warplanes of the third reich by w. green
> hitler's luftwaffe by tony wood and bill gunston
> jane's fighting aircraft of ww II



Well mate, I also have Jane's Fighting Aircraft of WW2 and if you read properly it says Horten 9, but if you read even better you will see the book is based on 1945 and 1946 editions and like everyone knows that information about these type of aircraft was not commonly known. If you go to the website of the NASM you will see they also talk about the Horten 229, they have all the info on the aircraft and even the interviews done with the Horten brothers in the 80's on tape and they does done their homework. 

Like I said earlier, READ PROPERLY.

P.S. Here is the link to the web page of the NASM where the Horten 229 V3 are today.

http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/horton_229.htm

I am not going to go on about this I think you should do your homework properly.

Henk


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## KraziKanuK (Feb 18, 2006)

Henk, the NASM site is full of errors. The official designation is Go229.


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## Henk (Feb 18, 2006)

I allready said why I call it Horten 229.

Lets stop this shit and move on.

Henk


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## KraziKanuK (Feb 18, 2006)

Henk said:


> I allready said why I call it Horten 229.
> 
> Lets stop this sh*t and move on.
> 
> Henk



Then call it the Horten Go229.


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## Twitch (Feb 18, 2006)

The Go 229 is really the old style designation before people have researched German advanced projects to the degree they have over the past 15 years with extreme interest. In the 1960s it was fine to call it the Go 229 because no one really knew or cared that much. The official RLM designation was Ho 9V-1 and V-2 and thererafter it was known as the Ho 229V-3 through V-8 examples.

Every book I have printed in recent times calls it the Ho 229. Some authors that worked with original Air ministry and company records actually make known this correction in their books pointing out the fact that it is the Ho 229.

The authors in the know put the proper designation in their works for I have books from 1947 to 1955 that call it the Ho 229. The only nomeclature hang up is the fact that it was probably going to be designated as the Go 229 when production began. But since it never did the design never moved past the Ho 229 prototype stage.

Look at the books guys and you'll see what's proper.


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 18, 2006)

Ive always considered it as the Gotha Ho-229 as well. Its what ive read for the most part.


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## pbfoot (Feb 18, 2006)

My source indicates it was the HO 229 v1 or v2 Gotha took over at that point on the designator became GO 229 V3 - V7 the V7 being a 2 seater night fighter


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## Henk (Feb 18, 2006)

Did Gotha ever complete one of the airframes or fly it? No. Twitch is correct, the fact is that no one ever cared so much before to research it so when they did the realised the true name of it.

IN Jane's fighting aircraft of WW2 it is called the Horten 9 vut the information in the book about the aircraft are not so good, because it is a copy of the 1945/46 editions. 

Henk


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## pbfoot (Feb 18, 2006)

yes they did complete 1 it was about to commence flight testing when the US army arrived and v4 and v5 the 2 seat night fighter versions were in final assembly which corrects my earlier post


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## Henk (Feb 18, 2006)

Nope, the airframes of the V4 and V5 was not even completed and the night fighter not even started on. The V3 did not have wings and it was not fully completed. 

The US got the wings at a other location where the wings were build.

Henk


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## me262 (Feb 18, 2006)

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## delcyros (Feb 19, 2006)

OOOOps. Me-262 HG I, Me-262 HG-II are missing.
Me-262 HG-III also (but this one never was completed)....


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## Henk (Feb 19, 2006)

Wow, nice info guys.

Henk


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## Erich (Feb 19, 2006)

there never was a A-1a/R1 it was the A1a with R4M's according to JG 7 vets.

the B-1a/U1 was the offical designation of the twin seta nf not the Zwilling (Z) config you posed. In fact the Kommano Welter just called it the B-1a. Bordfünkers were being found in march of 45 but only two of them flew on ops with Herbert Altner. Herbert had a major flame out one eve and he bailed out but his radar operator could not get out of the machine and was killed. Herbert than flew another couple of missions in the twinseater with a new Bordfünker. 

Several of units listed were also prototypes only and enver flew in action. And I do understand if this was the purpose behind the listing


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## Twitch (Feb 19, 2006)

Waggon-fabrik Gotha was in charge of construction of the Hortens. But OFFICIALLY there was to be no Gotha name on the Project 9 aircraft until production aircaft were produced. Every airframe made or under construction was a prototype. V-2 and V-2 were Horten-built and the V-3 throught V-8 were Gotha-built but still under the RLM's Ho designation

Nevertheless, it was a very interesting and innovative plane under any name.

Here's a few of my books that I consulted:

Bergaust, Erich
Hitler's Secrets Revealed
Bantam Books, NY, 1956

Simon; Leslie E.
Secret Weapons of the Third Reich 
WE, Inc. Old Greenwich CT, 1947, USA.

Green, William
Fighters Vols. 1
Doubleday Co., 1960

Green, William
Jet Aircraft of the World
Macdonald, London, 1955

Green, Wm.
The Complete Book of Fighters
Smithmark Publishers, NY, 1994

Green, William
Warplanes of the Third Reich
Galahad Books, NY, 1986

Myhra, David
Secret Aircraft Designs of the Third Reich
Schiffer Publishing, Atglen, PA 1998

I find no reference for a Me 262 A-1a/R1


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## Erich (Feb 19, 2006)

as I said........

Twitch get rid of your William Green bogus books. all very old news. His aircraft of the thrid Reich, sadly should be eliminated from every serious student of Luftwaffe history.

for the 262 I would strongly advise the expensive but worth it 4 volume set from Classic Pubs and also the single volume of Me 262 combat diary besides Manfred Boehmes JG 7 now printed in English is a must on the unit although still some gaps that need to be filled. I have over 25 books just on the 262 collected since 1964


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## me262 (Feb 19, 2006)

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## Twitch (Feb 20, 2006)

Erich-no need to be beligerent about books OK? But the overwhelming majority of authors besides Wm. Green who have researched data about the Horten have stated the V-1 V-2 are designated as the Ho 9. Machines V-3 through V-8 were designated as Ho 229s. PRODUCTION aircraft were to be designated Go 229. Since no production aircraft reached fruition technically then no offical Go 229 ever existed. 

In Green's books he actually calls the plane the Go 229 with the added stipulation that I just conveyed above. So do all the other authors before of after Green. I listed only a few books I quickly referenced out of nearly 500 I own. The plane was to be called the Gotha Go 229 but never reached that point since the prototypes were all Hortens by name.

With all due respect I simply am puzzled as to why something that is known to be stated in myriad manuscripts on the subject must be looked at with a jaundiced eye because one person says so.

Would we call the Me 163 a Messerschmitt product if Lippisch and team hadn't been transferred to Messerschmitt? If Messerschmitt was slated to built the DFS 194 but that never happened why would we call the DFS 194 a Messerschmitt and not acknowledge the DFS connection?

Why prolong banal nomeclature discussions? You all can call it anything you all want as long as you can be "right." Then we'll all be happy.


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## Henk (Feb 20, 2006)

Dam Twitch I wish I had the books you have. I also did not find anything like the Me-262 A-1a.

Yes you all can call it what you want as long as we do not fight about it and if you know the History of the aircraft.
Now then does anyone have more pictures on the Me-262 Mistel bomber I posted before?

Henk


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## Erich (Feb 20, 2006)

Twitch, hey man go by your real name so I can give you a real answer.....alias's suck gents.

I am sick and tired of people telling me this kind of crap and nothing against you man but lets face reality. time and time again W. Greens books have been used regardless of the fact that much materials are myths brought up by captured Luftwaffe crewmen and also ground crews to foil Allied intelligence even at wars end, a simple FACT that has been overlooked for years. Green and many others of the 60's and later 70's generated books accepted all this nonsense. Sadly it gets repeasted over and over again for the guys that were born in the 1990's and to the present. Wish these books would be gone through and severly edited. Ask questions and test the waters, this is how I first got started in 1964 

do you follow me ?

am I belligerent no, you don't me so do not presume. One reason why I hate the cybernet, there are no personality traits that can be transferred over. One day though we will all be communicating with video sensors, a matter of simple time


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## Henk (Feb 20, 2006)

Chill Erich. Well I think most of the secret weapons of Germany has been swept under the carpet for too long and some it are just ignored all in all. If you take, a history book of WW2 should tell me everything about the war, but they do not do that and thus their are a lot of assholes who just makes up their own shit. 

I first started learning about all these aircraft of the Luftwaffe when I bought the Jane's Fighting Aircraft of WW2. It is 90% correct and it can give you a great idea of what all the sides developed.

I have heard time and time again that W. Greens books are great and a good reverence.

Henk


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## Erich (Feb 20, 2006)

you chill son I know of what I speak and if you want Greens crap be my guest, I have given you the facts.

your horten Gotha thing is way off topic anyway so start another bloody thread


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## Henk (Feb 20, 2006)

Erich mate please I do not want to start a fight and I appolagise for me being off topic.

No need to be rude.

Henk


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## Erich (Feb 20, 2006)

how do you know I was being rude, why do you guys tell me to chill ? This is getting really funny, how do you know I am not teasing you, how do you know I am serious ? how do you know I am what I say I am...........all of you don't.

I say it again their is no personality traits when it comes to typing anything on the internet. It is confusing and non assuming or it should be. Do not presume to think or feel that I am downgrading you guys in anyway. It seems you young chaps are hypersensitive to any type of criticism and that is pretty darn wimpy/pussy or whatever you want to call in it my book and several other vets here that are modersators. A little bit of respect and using true identities would go along way for respect in return. My suggestion is start working on it. We have a vast array of knowledge going on here in the moderating team, use it do not defy it.

v/r E ~


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## Henk (Feb 20, 2006)

Ok, I understand I did not intend to offend anyone.

I am here the person that I realy am and I use my own name. Actualy my real name is Hendrik Gabriel Greeff, but everyone calls me Henk so that is what I am using. 

Well I might be young but it does not make me dum or a idiot. ( not that you were saying so) 

Did youthink that I am not who I say I am here?

Ask Twitch and he will tell you my name is Henk.

Do want to know more about me I do not care to share?

Henk


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## Erich (Feb 20, 2006)

good your free to go.........  and Twitch needs a first name as well Hendrik. You can also post in one of the upper forums who you are and about yourself, take a look...........and place a photo of yourself with member, moderator Les

Hendrik I never once said you are dumb/idiot. Again the problem with communication over the net. To put it calmly, we have to ask questions and try and discover what is in between the lines of old stories told whether we believe they are true or not. there is much written after the war until present which is still old news that needs a thourough cleansing, much needs to be thrown away. this is one reason why my remark is made towards Greens book(s), I do also own a couple from the early 1960's after they were first published, and he has not had anything changed, not even the profiles since that time but has had numerous repeated volumes made. This is also the case of the old news surrounding the Me 262 nachtjäger both single and twin seat versions, that is definately on-topic. Much as has been written and accepted since wars end, and Welter and the pilots were ordered to tell their RAF captors anyting they wanted to know even if it was through lies so they would get a short prison sentanace and that is exactly what happened. the Kommando personell did not want the English or RCAF to fly the twin seater so the Allies were given false instructions on how to fly the birds, thus the result was several accidents and total write-offs. one case nearly casued a severe probelm with English test pilot Eric Brown and we are going to cover that incident and the pics we have of him and Welter, G. C. on the fueslage and wing giving E. Brown lessons on how to start the jet turbos, etc.


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## Henk (Feb 20, 2006)

Erich I understand what you are saying.

You can call me Henk the Hendrik let me think of when my parrents when they got mad at me. lol

Henk


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## lesofprimus (Feb 20, 2006)

I too have found William Greens books to be full of faults and bad information, and I do not use them for reference, nor do I know any researcher/author/fanatic who uses them either.... I agree 100% with Erich on this....


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## Twitch (Feb 20, 2006)

What a bunch of crapola for nothing guys. Clam down! I don't care who has a hard on for Green's books. Excuse me! How the heck was I to know it was a sore subject? How can 100% of his writing be incorrect?Why in hell is everyone so damn touchy? I notice no one degraded the other titles I listed so they must be OK? 

So I've been collecting books since I was 10 back in 1958. So? I've intervieved hundreds of aces from the US, Russia, England and Germany. I've written about 300 articles with probably 200 published in print and on the web in several subject categories. So what? I'm not flaunting it. Where does it say that you can't use a screen name? I see tons of others using screen names. My occupation and interests are clearly posted.

I'm simply mentioning quotes that are clearly written by several authors about the Horten 9 and what, no one believes it? I don't come here to argue with anyone only to exchange information, data and have light hearted discussions about pilots and machines. I apologise if I have the wrong books or made anyone angry. I am not accustomed to being come down on for literally nothing so I am frankly stunned and disappointed that the community seems to be lining up against me for owning some reference books. Wow! This is so small of you guys! I guess I should just leave.




if i got you in trouble too Henk.


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## Henk (Feb 20, 2006)

No, it is cool Twitch.

Hey guys lets stop fighting and get back to the topic. Please does anyone have pictures of the Me-262 that has the little cockpit in the nose and were planned to be used in the mistel project.

Henk


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## lesofprimus (Feb 20, 2006)

> Clam down


How bout u shut the fuck up and learn ur place before I decide to slam ur ass...

We were making comments concerning William Greens work and the vaildity of it.... Not u.... Its not a sore subject or touchy.... Its a fact... And if ur so involved in the "writing" community, u should know this as well.... Shit, Im just the Grandson of a Black Sheep, and even I know that....

And IIRC, Adolf Galland also discounted his work as "pure jibberish..."


> I guess I should just leave.


Dont let the door hit u in the ass when u leave... I dont have time for this mamby pamby BS, act ur age please....


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## Henk (Feb 20, 2006)

Please guys. Lets not get personel. Lets just forget this.

Henk


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## me262 (Feb 20, 2006)

bull shit, i'm out of here


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## Erich (Feb 21, 2006)

why leave, again are we being a bunch of panzies Twitch or whomever you are and me 262 or whomever you are ?

Twitch was i commenting on your materials on the Horten or Go 229 ? No i wans't if you read my posts. i do comment strongly on W. Greens book(s) precisely some of the information given in his Third Reich book of a/c. one notorious error is his fantasy on FAGr 5 and their Ju 390 flight to New York and back to France. Sadly as I have said something like this was blown out of proportion by captured members of the stealth recon unit and blown out and Green fell for the deceit and printed it up in full and then it got started and so severly you will see it on nearly every web-site talking about the Ju 290/390 a/c and the units that flew them............this is what I am talking about.

still curious whom you are and what articles you have written and what German vets you have interviewed. pleae I am not trying to deny you and am quite interested in what you have done.

Am I getting hot over all of this ............. nope. Why are we reading into what is not really here ? Is it because I am doubting some of the info I am reading on this thread so this makes me angry and insensitive ??


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## Twitch (Feb 21, 2006)

Erich- with all due respect, I was only commenting on the Horten machine, not the 262 and happened to have those 7 books above at hand so no one would think it was fantasy. Every book, Green's or others, I've ever seen go into the detail about the nameclature of the Go and the Ho business no matter how the plane is listed under in the index. You know that's correct since you obviously have books cover the subject as well. Of couse I have scads of other works stating the same facts. Doesn't seem sensible to be required to list them all. anyhow folks can call it whatever they desire. I was surprized to be harshly persecuted for the Green books but no mention of Bergaust, Simon or Mhyra, and for names and picture in a profile being demanded. I flamed no one and never broke any board rules. 

The Ju 390 story I heard was something that Green misconstrued from Junkers factory records not a plot against sensability. Other data and brief histories in his books are benign for the most part.

For what it is worth my 1st name is Jim. I don't have a photo of myself less than about 25 years ago- don't like getting my picture took- capture the soul I heard. Here's one I had handy when I was in the USMC before I shipped out to Nam. Hope this is legal. 

Who am I? I am nobody really. Just the son of a P-51 pilot that smoked an Fw 190 that accidently "flew right in front of me," at the end of the war. He shared 1/2 a Ju88 ground kill. I was always interested in planes. My 1st aviation books in 1958 were Colby, C.B. Jets of the World Coward-McCann, Inc., NY, 1952 and Colby, C.B. Wings Of Our Air Force Coward-McCann, Inc., NY, 1952

I got interested in talking to the aces in the 1980s. I have lots of tapes and notes all pretty unorganized unfortunately. I don't write for print anymore. The last was over 10 years ago. I got into writing for pleasure and have done articles on WW 2 combat aviation mostly but some non-avaiation subjects also. I ain't famous! Just a guy that likes combat planes and loves the pilots.

I came to this site since I didn't see much arguing and sharp tempers at work here. Some sites have members that are always, always demanding "sources" on anything one mentions. People love to argue on the internet for some reason. I agree with you in the fact that the web is full of concise or incorrect information. If I obtain a series of government/military documents released in the mid 1990s under the Freedom of Information Act concerning the invasion of Japan I may wade through 200,000 words. On the web you'll be lucky to find the abridged version synopsis in 1,000 words.

I had chosen not to mention anything other than the fact that I write sometimes. When I have in the past too many people have endlessly bugged me with petty questions about aces which I simply will not answer. If I say Rall seems dynamic enough to jump into a 109 cockpit today (said several years ago) people want to know more stuff than I have time or inclination to reveal. Much like you and the manuscript you are involved with- When it comes out it come out.

I have learned my lesson. I apologise. I shant offer any corrections to anyone again on data. I am sincerely sorry if anything I have mentioned has upset anyone. This is all so transitory none of us should take anything too seriously especially ourselves. As a cancer survivor still in ill health I can attest to that. 

Since I was diagnosed I changed my mind and decided not to attempt to publish 3-4 book-length manuscripts I've done. I may do an article now an again but my life has changed too much to take it seriously. I encourage you with your writing endeavours however.

BTW the nick name Twitch has been with me since Vietnam. Everyone in our outfit got monikers and my forefinger would "twitch" on the M-16 trigger guard when we lay in ambush for Charlie so that's where it came from.










Now as Henk said let's chill and get back to airplanes......................


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## Erich (Feb 21, 2006)

good to meet you Jim

I understand through looking on the past of this lengthy thread we were not talking at all about the same thing(s).

is your father still with us and what fg was he apart of if I may ask ??

briefly I too know about the Orient and all it's fascination(s) that kept me there too long and mid-east and the ice and the ??? 8) and yes I still work for the big cheese at times not of my choosing.

Cancer yes know about that too as I struggle with it. ~ skin

Jim can you share who the German vets you have chatted with ? and please do not apoligize for anything. Corrections and asking is how we learn. Understanding the cyber waves can be difficult as we have tried to point out


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## Henk (Feb 21, 2006)

Great guys, now I learned a lot bout both of you.

Well I do not know how it is to have cancer but I know about operations when I had reconstruction in my foot in November 2004 and they took bone out of the hip for that and it is not for any baby's. The worst of this entire thing is if you can not walk for 6 months only on crutches. Never will they do that to me again, that was the wost thing for me ever.

Henk


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## lesofprimus (Feb 21, 2006)

> Some sites have members that are always, always demanding "sources"


We have a few of those here as well....


> Who am I? I am nobody really.


Arent we all....


> When I have in the past too many people have endlessly bugged me with petty questions about aces which I simply will not answer.


This site is not like that.... I have met many Aces myself, though not as an interviewer... My Grandfather was Blacksheep Bill Case, and I grew up in that community... 

No one hounds me about info, nor about the validity of what I say... I am what I say I am, as most of the members and Mods here are.... You have to earn ur stripes though Jarhead, and as a Squid, I have earned the right to call u that... Put some time in around here, and things will level off....

I still dont, however, understand what the big secret is about ur identity... Ur not going to get hounded here unless u deserve it... 

Maybe u have something to hide??? Heres a clue....

NO ONE HERE FREAKIN CARES!!!!!!!!!


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## Henk (Feb 21, 2006)

lesofprimus jy is n regte copperaal. lol

Henk


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## lesofprimus (Feb 21, 2006)

> lesofprimus jy is n regte copperaal. lol


Mayama gog face and a banana patch???


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## Henk (Feb 21, 2006)

Do you know what I sayd mate?

Henk


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## lesofprimus (Feb 21, 2006)

Do u know what I said???


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## Henk (Feb 21, 2006)

Now now you can not reply with a question.

You said something about my face and a banana patch. 

I did not say anything cruel or nasty.

Henk


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## lesofprimus (Feb 22, 2006)

I can reply in any manner I deem appropriate....


> I did not say anything cruel or nasty.


How the fuck would I know what u said....


> You said something about my face and a banana patch.


No I didnt... It amounts to jibberish, the same crap u typed in... Ur sense of humor sucks...

U need to spend some more time here and start reading some of the older posts, so u can get an idea who and what kind of personalities ur dealing with here... I'm not gonna sit here and try to explain myself to some noob...

And I dont speak any other language but my own, which is why u dont see me in the Multi-lingual Forum....


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## Henk (Feb 22, 2006)

No, mate I did not say you said anything cruel to me. And yes, I have a great sense of humor and I do not take everything personel.

Well mate I said in Afrikaans the language I speak, you are just like a corparal. It was just a joke mate.

So mate please I do have a sense of humor.

Nice chatting to you.

Henk


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## lesofprimus (Feb 22, 2006)

How am I just like a corporal??? I was in the Navy, and a SEAL at that... 

Insinuating that I was in the Marine Corps is just about the same as slapping my face with a wet noodle....


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 22, 2006)

Yea! They give you a stripe in the Marines when you loose 50 points from your IQ!!!!


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## Twitch (Feb 25, 2006)

Erich and guys- my Mom died yesterday after complications indirectly from a knee replacement. You know secondary infections and blood problems. She at least wasn't in pain. 

My Dad and Mom were divorced when I was very little and I met him later in life again. Believe it or not I figured we'd have time to talk about flying and such but he died suddenly. The danged records center had a fire in St, Louis Mo. and his records, and who knows how many others, were lost forever so all I know is a couple things of little consequnce.

I've talked with Galland, Schuck, Rall, Krupinski, Steinhoff and so many more on all sides except the Japanese. Well one guy there.

Was Bill Case pro or against Pappy lesofprimus? Just curious. People either love or hate him. I have usually made it a rule to be anonymous on the web. It's safer. But that's about all there is to know about me. I don't care what anyone else's name is as long as we have fun and put out interesting pilot and planes info. There's always something to learn! Henk found out some cool info on the South African 262 night fighter.

The bottom line is cancer and the associated side effects sucks!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 25, 2006)

i am, as well as i'm sure everyone here is, sorry to hear of your loss ond offer my condolences


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## FLYBOYJ (Feb 25, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your mom Twitch.

Just a side note about Pappy...

My ex-father in law ran the Pickwick Bowling Alley in Burbank. Boyington and his wife used to bowl there every Friday night and he even gave my ex-father in law an autographed copy of Baa Baa Black Sheep. My ex FIN liked him and thought he was a nice guy but as portrayed, he was a heavy drinker..

My brother's military records were also lost in that St. Louis fire - for him it was a good thing, he was not a model "discipline" soldier....


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## Henk (Feb 25, 2006)

Ok like Twitch said I got a reply from the Museum in Johannesburg where the Me-262 night fighter is stored.

This is what they said about the aircraft.

"The Me 262 B-1a/U1 at the South African Nationa Museum of Military History is the sole night fighter version of the Me 262 still in existence. The aircraft was converted from a two-seater trainer built by Blohm und Voss. It has the identification number 'Red 8' and was allocated to Staffel 10 of Nachjagdeschwader 11 under the command of Oberleatnant Kurt Welter. We are, unfortunately, unable to provide any information on who flew the aircraft, how many missions it flew and how many victories it had. The aircraft was handed over to the Royal Air Force at Schleswig Jagel in Denmark in April 1945."

Then I also asked them for some info on the Fw-190 stored there and they also gave me a bit of info on it.

"The Fw 190 at the Museum had the original designation A-6/R6. It was subsequently upgraded to R8 and carried an experimental form of radar called Neptun-Lilliput. The aircraft served with a test unit Erprobungstelle, Staffel 8 of Jagdeschwader 11 and, as with the Me 262 above, we are unable to supply any information on who flew the aircraft, how many missions it flew and how many victories it had. We are also unsure of how the aircraft came into Allied hands."

Here is a few pictures of the Fw-190.

Below: you can see the Fw-190 and in the background you can see the Me-262 night fighter.











Well now I cannot remember where I got the pics, but will try to get it.

Enjoy.

Henk


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## Erich (Feb 25, 2006)

first off ........... Jim so sorry to hear about this in your famile. Cancer is the disease from Hell and I can testify to that, my dear beautiful itralien mother died from colon/Breast complication and i watched her literally deteriorate in front of my eyes, wifes and childrens. It was a horror story in reality.

be strong !! one reason why I wear lances yellow band on my right wrist, casue of mom and my own struggles with skin cancer besides I ride like the wind .......... 8) 

second and not at all important in the scheme of life but Röte 8 was never flown by any speciifc pilot nor any missions or vicotries flown in it. Go back and you will find my statements, red 12 flew 5 ops and scored 1 Mossie, and that is pathetically it for the two seaters. my book will give all pertinenet inforamtion on the single/twin seat jobs within Kommando Welter

the outsdie gondolas on the fw 190 for the 2cm and later 3cm as pictured by hendrik did not work, the reason why the A-7/MK and later R2 varinat was borne, to include the area within the wing for the 3cm and seperate ammo load housings. later A-8/R2 and A-8/R8


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## Henk (Feb 25, 2006)

Erich mate I never said Red 8 flew missions after I found out it never flew, I just wanted more info on it from the museum.

Yes the Fw-190 has 30mm guns under the wing. 

I am still working on info on the Fw-190 and will get it soon.

Henk


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## lesofprimus (Feb 25, 2006)

My grandfather flew Pappys wing on numerous occasions, and loved the man as if he were his own father.... I've been to many reunions and gatherings in all my years... 

Im sure we have conversed with the same Ace or two, here and there, over the course of the last 25 years or so, huh Twitch???


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 25, 2006)

Is the first time that I see those Bf-109 stile weapons container in a FW-190


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## Henk (Feb 25, 2006)

Yes, it is strange hey.

Henk


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## Henk (Feb 26, 2006)

Ok, guys I got this new info on the Fw-190 at Joburg Museum thanks to delcyros who translated it for me here it is. Thanks again mate.

"These two pictures show a Focke Wulf Fw 190/A6 from III./JG 11 (W.Nr. 550214) of the South African Military Museum Johannesburg. This plane was manufactured mid 1943 at AGO plant (near) Oschersleben and modified as experimantal plane for the so called "Neptun-Liliput" device. 
This special device was used for rangefinding and timing to fire 21cm rockets into bomber streams. A line of dipols on one wing was used as emitter while those of the other wing were receivers. The Neptun - Liliput (devce) coworked with the Elfe EG 3 which automaticly set the range for proper firing of the rockets and detonating of them in (proximity to) the bombers. 
Following the modification to Fw-190A6/R8* the dipols should have been removed because of the higher aerodynamic drag (which) would negatively effect dogfighting abilities. 
After wars end this particular plane was captured in Denmark. Following extensive analysis by the british it was send to South Africa as a present. 
In this museum are also on display a two seater Me-262 B1a/U1 -nightfighter-(W.Nr.110305), a Bf-109F2/Trop of the JG 27 captured in North Africa (W.Nr.31010), a Bf-109 E3 (emergancy landing at BoB) and a flight ready Fieseler Storch Fi-156 C7 (W.Nr.475099). 

*The subtype R8 for fw-190 are with two underwing gondolas 30 mm MK 108. Extra to those powerful (spelled:mighty) weapons the R8 also carried two 20 mm MG 151/20 in the wingroots and two 7.92 mm MG17 firing through the propeller arc."

I got this info from a German website called www.jagdgeschwader4.de, but the pictures on the site does not work, I wonder why? Check it out for yourselfs. 

http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/Flugzeuge/FW190/Fotos-A6/Index.htm

Thanks again mate for the help in translating it for me.

Henk


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## Erich (Feb 26, 2006)

The R8 designation actually means inboard 3cm with extra armor and as standard no mg 131's in the colwing but the cowling mg covers covered with aerodynamic fairings, the R* Sturm version was produced from November 44 onward to eventually replace the R2 variant. The Fw 190 with outboard 3cm in waffen-pods never flew in action


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## Henk (Feb 26, 2006)

Yes, it never saw action, as far as the information proofs it was just a test bed.

Henk


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## Erich (Feb 26, 2006)

just like the Fw 190 with the underwing Mk 103 3cm pods


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## Henk (Feb 26, 2006)

Well I do not know about that one. I have heard they did fly with Fw-190's with bombs that they will drop in the middle of a bomber formation and then detonate it, but it was not so successful like they hoped.

Henk


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## Erich (Feb 26, 2006)

actually it was 109's with Heinz Knoke and his 5th staffel of JG 11 in April of 43. within a few days the whole of II./JG 11 was issued bombs for supposed bombing of US heavies. It was a total joke, a dropped almost as soon as it was conceived and then gone back to underwing 2cm gondolas


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## Henk (Feb 26, 2006)

Do you know of a Dieter who flew with them? I do not have his surname now but will get it thenm tell you. You are right it was Bf-109's, sorry my fualt.

Henk


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## Henk (Feb 26, 2006)

I got it his name was Dieter Goetz Reh. He surved with JV 44 at the end of the wr at Salzburg where he surrendered to a American tank regiment. HE flew the Me-262 by the end of the war. HE also flew Bf-109's, Fw-190 and with Wildesau.

Do you about him?

Henk


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## loomaluftwaffe (Feb 26, 2006)

heres some info on that

from LUFTWAFFE FIGHTER AIRCRAFT IN PROFILE

*scanner image is of low quality, tell me if i should post the image of his plane or not*

Messerschmitt Bf109G-1
Flown by Leutnant Heinz Knoke, 5./JG 11, Jever, Germany, April 1943

Heinz Knoke, famous as the man who introduced the air to air bombing of B-17s and well known for some of his post-war memoirs, led the so called _boeing klau_ (boeing grabber) Staffel, 2./JG1 (later 5./JG 11), defending NW Germany against US 4 engined bombers from the onset of the US Bomber offemsive over Germany.

On March 22, 1943, Knoke succeeded in destroying a US Heavy Bomber in the air by dropping a bomb on it. On April 17, the entire Staffel dropped bombs on a B-17 formation over Bremen, where a Focke-Wulf factory is based, this time without success. Defending Kiel 1 month later, on May 14, 3 of his men managed to knock out 3 B-17s by air to air bombing.

Knokeand his men became heavily exploited by German Propaganda in 1943, when there was a desperate need to counterbalance the Daylight bombing raids with....


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## Henk (Feb 26, 2006)

Thanks for the info mat and you can post the image. You know about Dieter?

Henk


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## loomaluftwaffe (Feb 26, 2006)

oh wait, i managed to fix the quality


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## Henk (Feb 26, 2006)

Cool, nice aircraft.

Henk


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## loomaluftwaffe (Feb 26, 2006)

its the only G-1 in the book


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## Henk (Feb 26, 2006)

Why did you change your pic to the Heinkel 280?

Henk


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## loomaluftwaffe (Feb 26, 2006)

i dont know... cause i wanna? u want me to change it back to the Renzan?


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## Henk (Feb 26, 2006)

No, it looks better than the other one. Are you a fan of the Heinkel 280?

Henk


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## loomaluftwaffe (Feb 26, 2006)

yeah actually, if only there was one in Il-2 and you can use it in the campaign, blast those stubby little polikarpovs with jets


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## Henk (Feb 26, 2006)

I would be cool hey? I wish I could play that game.

Henk


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## loomaluftwaffe (Feb 26, 2006)

the best flight sim where you can decapitate the other guy


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## Henk (Feb 26, 2006)

How much Gravics do you need to run it? I have Secret Weapons Over Normandy on PS2, that is it.

Henk


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## KraziKanuK (Feb 26, 2006)

Henk, the better your 'pute, the better for the Il-2 series of games.

A gig of RAM, a top graphics card and a 'pute that runs on something like the AMD 3000. It will run on less but the graphics will suck and the frame rate will be slow.


link http://www.pacific-fighters.com/en/home.php?skin=S2


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## delcyros (Feb 27, 2006)

Really nice game, Henk.
I do personally get slammed as soon as I took airborne. Everytime.
Some planes are not modelled as one might wish (wonder why nobody here states the La-5FN, Yak-3P and La-7 as best ever dogfighters, hehe), but otherwise it is fine.


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## Twitch (Feb 27, 2006)

Thanks for all your well wishes guys. They are appreciated!

You know as we denote all sorts of different models and sub-models modifications went well beyond that in the field. The Rustsatz were field modification sets from the factory to update aircraft in service with enhanced armament. While even these should be covered in exhaustive statistical lists the cool thing is that Luftwaffe armourers had innovative ideas of their own and as directed mounted all sorts of weaponry on craft that were never made for them. Met once such guy long ago but don't know if he's still alive as I no longer have contact for him. I recall his name was Willi. He astounded me with tales of mounting 8 20mms on FW 190s and all sorts of wild stuff! And this was widespread in his opinion. So if someone says a certain weapon was never on a certain plane may be correct in the factory sense but once in the field anything happened.


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## Henk (Feb 27, 2006)

Twitch mate we are here for you. Ys, they did mount weird stuff on their aircraft.

Guys I only have 768 Ram, I wish I had a AMD mother board and I wish I had a graphics card.

I once heard here lives a German who build the Jumo 004 jet engines, but I want to talk to him to find out if he realy did do it. He lives 100 km from me and I realy want to talk to him.

Henk


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## delcyros (Feb 27, 2006)

Use the possibility and please ask him for the Luftwaffe acceptance limits for Jumo-004B.


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## loomaluftwaffe (Feb 28, 2006)

Henk said:


> Twitch mate we are here for you. Ys, they did mount weird stuff on their aircraft.
> 
> Guys I only have 768 Ram, I wish I had a AMD mother board and I wish I had a graphics card.
> 
> ...



look dude, i only have a 64mb video card, 512MB RAM, and im fine!! i just had to download something to make the FPS rate alot better


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## skatefart (May 7, 2009)

Henk said:


> Now I changed the topic to be able to talk about all the Me-262 variants and prototypes build during the war.
> 
> This picture below is strange and does not look real. What do you think?
> 
> ...



dude thats either a prototype recon version or a version in which a prone bombardier flew in. i dont think there are any surviving examples of this as only few a handful were built. who knows, someones probably tried to replicate one.


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## spottydog (Feb 21, 2013)

Luftwaffe Me 262 jet (C-2b variant) - static test - 

rocket-boosted interceptor (Heimatschützer II) with two BMW 003R "combined" powerplants (BMW 003 jet, with a single 1000 kg thrust BMW 718 rocket engine mounted atop the rear of each jet




_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36jWBZ7Dczg_


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## Gixxerman (Feb 21, 2013)

Maybe I'm imagining it - and I know the Jumo was bigger - but it certainly looks very apparent to me like those BMW engines were a lot slimmer than the Jumo's.


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