# First area to legalize Marijuana



## B-17engineer (Nov 14, 2009)

First U.S. marijuana cafe opens in Portland | U.S. | Reuters

By Dan Cook

PORTLAND, Oregon (Reuters) - The United States' first marijuana cafe opened on Friday, posing an early test of the Obama administration's move to relax policing of medical use of the drug.

The Cannabis Cafe in Portland, Oregon, is the first to give certified medical marijuana users a place to get hold of the drug and smoke it -- as long as they are out of public view -- despite a federal ban.

"This club represents personal freedom, finally, for our members," said Madeline Martinez, Oregon's executive director of NORML, a group pushing for marijuana legalization.

"Our plans go beyond serving food and marijuana," said Martinez. "We hope to have classes, seminars, even a Cannabis Community College, based here to help people learn about growing and other uses for cannabis."

The cafe -- in a two-story building which formerly housed a speak-easy and adult erotic club Rumpspankers -- is technically a private club, but is open to any Oregon residents who are NORML members and hold an official medical marijuana card.

Members pay $25 per month to use the 100-person capacity cafe. They don't buy marijuana, but get it free over the counter from "budtenders". Open 10 a.m. to 10 p.m., it serves food but has no liquor license.

There are about 21,000 patients registered to use marijuana for medical purposes in Oregon. Doctors have prescribed marijuana for a host of illnesses, including Alzheimer's, diabetes, multiple sclerosis and Tourette's syndrome.

On opening day, reporters invited to the cafe could smell, but were not allowed to see, people smoking marijuana.

"I still run a coffee shop and events venue, just like I did before we converted it to the Cannabis Cafe, but now it will be cannabis-themed," said Eric Solomon, the owner of the cafe, who is looking forward to holding marijuana-themed weddings, film festivals and dances in the second-floor ballroom.

NO PROSECUTION

The creation of the cafe comes almost a month after the Obama administration told federal attorneys not to prosecute patients who use marijuana for medical reasons or dispensaries in states which have legalized them.

About a dozen states, including Oregon, followed California's 1996 move to adopt medical marijuana laws, allowing the drug to be cultivated and sold for medical use. A similar number have pending legislation or ballot measures planned.

Pot cafes, known as "coffee shops", are popular in the Dutch city of Amsterdam, where possession of small amounts of marijuana is legal. Portland's Cannabis Cafe is the first of its kind to open in the United States, according to NORML.

Growing, possessing, distributing and smoking marijuana are still illegal under U.S. federal law, which makes no distinction between medical and recreational use.

Federal and local law enforcement agencies did not return phone calls from Reuters on Friday seeking comment on the Portland cafe's operations. "To have a place that is this open about its activities, where people can come together and smoke -- I say that's pretty amazing." said Tim Pate, a longtime NORML member, at the cafe.

Some locals are hoping it might even be good for business.

"I know some neighbors are pretty negative about this place opening up," said David Bell, who works at a boutique that shares space with the cafe. "But I'm withholding judgment. There's no precedent for it. We don't know what to expect. But it would great if it brought some customers into our store."

(Writing by Bill Rigby; editing by Mohammad Zargham)


*BOY Just can't wait till people start abusing this. Good job government. If a person needs it give them a dam pass. Don't legalize it so every nut job in the country will get fake Prescriptions for Marijuana.....  *


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## B-17engineer (Nov 14, 2009)

And what I am saying is..

Don't LEGALIZE it. Give the person who genuinely needs it a drivers licenses type card and if they don't have it with them you lock them up until you can confirm it.....


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## pbfoot (Nov 14, 2009)

Whats a matter with pot , I think its much safer then legal alcohol


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## beaupower32 (Nov 14, 2009)

Im with pb, never heard of any accidents caused by someone high, they drive to slow. Few if any accidents ever happen as far as I know.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 14, 2009)

Because it is going to turn out like alcohol people are going to abuse the privilege by getting fake whatever (prescriptions and anything else) just so they can get pot without being in trouble. 

Its going to lead to bad things. Its not a great thing to bring up weed in front of the upcoming generation and anytime. Its illegal, its illegal as simple as that. 

If you're going to legalize I would put a huge A** tax on it. Its a drug though. That's all that's needed. It is a much bigger problem to society with millions smoking pot.....


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## B-17engineer (Nov 14, 2009)

beaupower32 said:


> Im with pb, never heard of any accidents caused by someone high, they drive to slow. Few if any accidents ever happen as far as I know.



And my point is... it's still a drug.


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## Maximowitz (Nov 14, 2009)

Meanwhile, somewhere in Portland, Oregon...


"Phew.... you want to put that Pink Floyd album on again?"

"Yeah... I've been thinking......the singularity in Black Holes..."

"Uh?"

"It's like infinity right?"

"Well.. as Shakespeare wrote, "There's more in heaven and earth than dream't of in your philosophy.."



......"****. Does this mean we can turn the TV off and start reading again?"


Don't knock it. The collective IQ might rise.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 14, 2009)

To be honest, there's a particularly large amount of the population that already smokes weed. Legalizing it won't mean that the whole country is going to go "up in smoke" (sorry for the Cheech- n-Chong pun!) overnight.

The same fears were expressed when the U.S. lifted prohibition (which also had folks drinking illegally regardless of the laws in place) and it was said that everyone was going to be drowning in a stream of libations if the laws were lifted...didn't happen. One of the things that lifting the prohibition laws did, was to reduce organized crime's inroads into the illegal alcohol trade. Legalizing marijuana should have the same effect against the Mexican cartels and thier activities, especially here in California, which is a very real and very dangerous concern.

California has had legalized marijuana for a while now and people aren't staggering all over the streets in a stupor or attacking stores for thier funyuns and Dr. Pepper. There is strict regulations governing the ownership and dispensation of the pot, the marijuana co-ops as well as the Doctors that are prescribing it. The State lawmakers are also reviewing the laws to create a better regulatory document in relation to marijuana. The state is considering a tax that's much like the Federal government's handling of tobacco, where it's regulated at every stage, from the plant itself, to the manufacturer, and finally at the consumer level.

As far as a drug, I agree...it is, but then so is alcohol, nicotine, energy drinks and anything else that is used to alter the mind.


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## Maximowitz (Nov 14, 2009)

It's been legal in Amsterdam for more years than I can recall. And we know those Dutch are murderous, vicious psycho hose-beasts....set upon World dominination..


...through prog-rock albums. 



The worst that could happen is sales of Hawkwind albums and late night pizza orders might increase in Oregon.


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## pbfoot (Nov 14, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> And my point is... it's still a drug.


Yep and so is caffiene and nicotine etc etc etc . Yes its a drug but a lot less costly to society then alcohol(drug) . Its not something i want people operating machinery to use but the same applies to alcohol . Its best if one could go through life without using any drug but IMO its the lesser of many evils


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## Maximowitz (Nov 14, 2009)

No one would operate machinery under the influence of Marijuana. They'd still be finding new ways to interpret the instruction manual.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 14, 2009)

Agreed Neil.... 

I'd rather have stoners drivin around than alcoholics....


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## syscom3 (Nov 14, 2009)

beaupower32 said:


> Im with pb, never heard of any accidents caused by someone high, they drive to slow. Few if any accidents ever happen as far as I know.



I can imagine an old asian woman driving a car, high on pot .... LOL!


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## GrauGeist (Nov 14, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> ....I'd rather have stoners drivin around than alcoholics....


Agreed...but I rarely see people driving while stoned...

It's more along the lines of:
"dude...can you drive me to the store?"
"I guess, why?"
"'cause....we need..."
"Yes? You need what?"
"...uh..."
"Food maybe?"
"yeah! (laughing) that's it!"
"Ok, let's go"
"Oh...hey, can we stop at Taco Bell on the way?"
"God, this is going to take us a while, isn't it?"


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## beaupower32 (Nov 14, 2009)

syscom3 said:


> I can imagine an old asian woman driving a car, high on pot .... LOL!



LOL, now thats funny.


Robin Williams Quote: 

Do you think God gets stoned? I think so . . . look at the platypus

First of all, if you come home to your house and you have no furniture and cats going, 'I'm out of here, prick!', warning. Number two: If you have this dream where you're doing cocaine in your sleep and you can't fall asleep and your doing cocaine in your sleep and you can't fall asleep, and you wake up and you're doing cocaine, BINGO! Number three: if on your tax form it says, '$50 thousand for snacks,' MAY-DAY!


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## B-17engineer (Nov 14, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> Agreed Neil....
> 
> I'd rather have stoners drivin around than alcoholics....



I'd rather have neither but it won't happen. But that isn't the point as to who we'd want driving down the road. 

Whatever you guys have your feelings about pot... I have mine (. When people are smoking pot and die from things such as lung cancer etc. etc. I'll be thinking, you stupid a**holes threw your life away for something that madeyou morbid and miserable. 

I especially hate the piety and self righteousness pot smokers have... pisses me off.


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## beaupower32 (Nov 14, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> I'd rather have neither but it won't happen. But that isn't the point as to who we'd want driving down the road.
> 
> Whatever you guys have your feelings about pot... I have mine (. When people are smoking pot and die from things such as lung cancer etc. etc. I'll be thinking, you stupid a**holes threw your life away for something that madeyou morbid and miserable.



So, we should be thinking the same about alcoholics who die from kidney failure or even Alcoholics who die from alcohol poisioning. Even smokers who die from lung diesease/cancer. We might as well bring everyone to the table if we are going to talk about stupid A**holes who threw their life away.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 14, 2009)

Yes we should!!! Because they don't know how to control the usage. 

My dads a police officer. He drinks but its being responsible because he doesn't drink so many bottles that he needs to get his stomach pumped. So if they can't do it responsibly YES!!! YES!!! The did throw there lives away. 

I am saying POT should be illegal and the people who will RESPECT it and need it for whatever fake medicine healing properties it has should use it. NOT legalize it.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 14, 2009)

Actually, the THC does relieve pain, and is one of the few ways doctors can get a chemotherapy patient to restore thier appetite. There are a number of other practical applications as well.

It's good to see a person who is against drugs...wish there were more that felt like you do, however, the real problem lies in controlled substances that are devestating to the human body and society, such as methamphetamines, narcotics and others.

I've personally known people who've smoked pot for decades and don't have any physical issues, but I have seen good people get into drugs like crack, and destroy not only themselves mentally and physically, but also devestated thier families as they went down...


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## B-17engineer (Nov 14, 2009)

Thanks GG. I'm against ILLEGAL Substances which Marijuana should still belong to though.

Neil I don't get why you are comparing Caffeine and Marijuana......


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## pbfoot (Nov 14, 2009)

The main thing is don't do something that is illegal there could be lasting legal ramifications that could affect future choices.
Caffiene is a drug maybe not the most dehabilitating but none the less a drug.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 14, 2009)

Caffeine and Nicotine are very addictive substances Harrison, and Marijuana is not addictive, yet all 3 are drugs but only ones illegal.....


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 14, 2009)

Never understood what the big issue was with the use of it for medical reasons.

There are certain varieties developed for commercial reason that you cannot get a high from, but is still illegal to own which never made any sense to me


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## javlin (Nov 14, 2009)

Let me put it this way if you are 20,25 or 35 and that's what you want to do is waste your life go for it.Just don't ask me to pick up the tab why you can't afford this or that because you are too lazy too earn it.Now if you can do both without affecting output at work and be postive to society have at it,less guberment the better in most areas.

My add on I smoked for about 1 1/2yrs was honor society 3.8GPA going for a scholarship and started that crap with the wrong crowd and lost it ALL in one year.I saw all my fellow members from the Honor Society getting there Scholarships and realized what I had done to just fit in with a different crowd to lay a girl(which didn't happen).


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## B-17engineer (Nov 14, 2009)

I understand Nicotine... Caffeine?


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## pbfoot (Nov 14, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> I understand Nicotine... Caffeine?


Once again my opinion means nothing and opinions are like assholes everyone has one .* Don't smoke anything cuz they are all bad *
I actually think nicotine is the worse villian then THC however caffiene is a drug
from wiki

"....In humans, caffeine is a central nervous system (CNS) stimulant, having the effect of temporarily warding off drowsiness and restoring alertness. Beverages containing caffeine, such as coffee, tea, soft drinks, and energy drinks enjoy great popularity. Caffeine is the world's most widely consumed psychoactive substance, but unlike many other psychoactive substances it is legal and unregulated in nearly all jurisdictions."


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

Yea I know my opinion was not to legalize marijuana..


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## 109ROAMING (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> I understand Nicotine... Caffeine?



Surely you've heard " I couldn't get through the day without my morning coffee" ??

Or something to that effect


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## chook (Nov 15, 2009)

There's a criminal charge here called drunk and disorderly. I'm sure we've all seen alcohol fueled violence in our time but I've seen no hippies going fisty cuffs! I can't see a problem with it. I will always want to do to my body whatever the hell I want to and believe everyone should be able to do so also, although these days I'm too busy to waste time altered(that way anyway).

Funny story recently from Brisbane in Queensland down this way. This guy was pulled over, passed breath test then mentioned mystical dragons to copper so they blood tested him and he got done. I think there's a lesson there!


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## Lucky13 (Nov 15, 2009)

Been smoking 'pot' on occasion, doesnt' do me anything whatsoever....

-You alright?
Puff-puff-puff
-Yeah..
-My turn....
-
-
-What the....you've finished it all you (Beep!)
-I have?
-Duuuh!
-Sorry!
-And that was my last you (Beep!)
-I said sorry!

I guess that I'm already high, stoned, laid back as I ever gonna be and don't have any effect on me....

-Excuse me Mr Lennon, about that song of yours.....
-I'll have a word with you later Mr Morrison, don't you go anywhere!


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

109ROAMING said:


> Surely you've heard " I couldn't get through the day without my morning coffee" ??
> 
> Or something to that effect



And? Its not harmful.........

OK. THE POINT ON THIS WAS: I don't want it legalized thats all. Didn't need to bring all this drugs brought into it because they're not illegal! Pot was illegal and still SHOULD be.

Like PB said you have your opinions I HAVE MINE. You think yours is right I think my is right. Telling me that you want it legalized isn't going to change MY mind.


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## 109ROAMING (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> And? Its not harmful.........



Wouldn't think so would you

Someone over here a while back ,was driving to work forgot to have their morning coffee and "needed it" , they stopped to get one , 5 minutes up the road they were distracted by said coffe and 3 people were dead

Its addictive and in that case it lead to death , more than likely happened elsewhere 



B-17engineer said:


> Like PB said you have your opinions I HAVE MINE. You think yours is right I think my is right. Telling me that you want it legalized isn't going to change MY mind.



Calm down abit mate , not going ya

I agree with ya about the whole pot thing ( was just saying caffeine's also a drug and is addictive)


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## Lucky13 (Nov 15, 2009)

Tea is just as addictive, believe it or not!


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## 109ROAMING (Nov 15, 2009)

Yup! mother and grandmother are both addicts!


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## Civettone (Nov 15, 2009)

pbfoot said:


> Yep and so is caffiene and nicotine etc etc etc . Yes its a drug but a lot less costly to society then alcohol(drug) . Its not something i want people operating machinery to use but the same applies to alcohol . Its best if one could go through life without using any drug but IMO its the lesser of many evils


That is it!

Especially the comparison with alcohol is interesting. It seems to come down to what is socially accepted and what is not. Drinking alcohol is often encouraged by popular media and culture. Yet alcohol can have much more severe consequences than marihuana, such as car accidents and violence. 
I am not completely saying marihuana is ok but if they want to keep it outlawed then they shoudl do the same with alcohol.

Kris


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## lesofprimus (Nov 15, 2009)

Harrison, u can get off the defensive right now..... We're all friends here and ur opinion IS ur opinion...

Nuff said...

We're not gonna try and convince u otherwise....

There are hundreds of things daily that can kill us... If I smoke cigarettes I run the risk of cancer.... Personal choice... If I smoke weed to relieve pain in my body, rather than take prescription drugs that make me sick to my stomach, thats also a personal choice....

I personally think its retarded that a plant that grows naturally in the ground is illegal, and yet alcohol is socially accepted...


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## Maximowitz (Nov 15, 2009)

It never did me any harm back in the day. I'm told it causes short term memory loss but I.... er...er... what was I saying?


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## Lucky13 (Nov 15, 2009)

What is it that we're talking about? Another joint Paul?


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## piet (Nov 15, 2009)

Smoking marijuana for fun is a bad hobby( its for loosers)and it cost allot of money 
I know some people that do.... men they dont make any sense.


But if you are sick and it helps to endure the pain why not?it is just a'nother drug

If you dont need it dont smoke it!!!

Piet.


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## beaupower32 (Nov 15, 2009)

Yep, wasnt trying to change your views on things Harrison, your opinion is your opinion, and I have no beef with that.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

Ok....... Daniel sorry if you took it the wrong way that was a general statement to others not you.  

Piet thanks I couldn't agree more.


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## Butters (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> I'd rather have neither but it won't happen. But that isn't the point as to who we'd want driving down the road.
> 
> Whatever you guys have your feelings about pot... I have mine (. When people are smoking pot and die from things such as lung cancer etc. etc. I'll be thinking, you stupid a**holes threw your life away for something that madeyou morbid and miserable.
> 
> I especially hate the piety and self righteousness pot smokers have... pisses me off.



Irony, thy name is ...

I've never noticed that pot smokers are any more falsely pious or self righteous than any other 'group'. Or that they are esp "morbid and miserable".And I've known an awful lot of them, myself included... To be frank, I suspect that what you interpret as 'piety' in pot smokers is really just a vexed response to your own self-righteous dogmatism.

As for people 'throwing their lives away', who are you (or more to the point, who are the people who actually promulgate such policies) to decide how people should live their lives? After all, the fundamental credo of your nation is that people are entitled to live their lives as they wish. With the caveat that 'Your right to swing your arm, ends where my nose begins'.

An examination of the history of the state illegalization of marijuana reveals that the motivation behind those laws never had anything at all to do with protecting people's health, or society in general. They are 'blue laws', pure and simple. HJ Mencken summed it up in one memorable line: "Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere is happy".

Pot is about as harmless a 'drug' as can be imagined. It certainly doesn't often turn people into violent maniacs, or wife and child abusers, like a certain legal drug I coulsd mention...Of course it can be abused, but so what? Lot'sa things people do can be harmful to them if taken to extremes. Hell, I know of guys in their 20's still sponging off their parents because they're too obsessed with playing video games to find and hold a job. Their personal lack of self-discipline isn't a just cause for a blanket prohibition of video games for the rest of us, is it?

The prohibition of pot is not only totally unjustified from a social cost/benefit perspective. Worse, the laws actually cause far more harm than they purport to prevent. Because the end result has not been to halt the use of pot, quite the contrary - but only to make criminals rich, to divert the expensive and limited resources of the law enforcement, judicial, and penal systems away from real problems, and to unjustly imprison and stigmatize vast numbers of people who pose no threat whatsoever to society. The War Against Marijuana is not only an utter failure, it's just plain wrong.

BTW, it may seem that I'm being unfairly rough with you, but I most assuredly am not. You've shown yourself to be a mature and level-headed guy, so I'm responding to you just as I would to any other man here. Because, despite our difference of opinions, I respect you.

JL


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

Ok I respect your thoughts. I just feel if it is illegal leave it illegal. People may not have died themselves from Marijuana but there have been incidents where people have killed others due to the use of marijuana. I know cases, my dad was talking to an inmate once (no hes not a criminal but a Police Officer) and he said his friends got 'high' on the drug and were convicted for manslaughter so it isn't as completely harmless as the users portray it to be or even the experiments portray it to be. It can lead to bad things, so does alcohol (Not directed at you Butters) but alcohol wasn't the point of this.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

Alcohol is 35 billion dollar industry, pot isn't. If you make that illegal it is going to be like the 1920's where you have smugglers from everywhere bringing alcohol. This leads to unnecessary violence, plus the majority of people who have problems with drinking have real life issues. For people who use pot medically they do have issues and so be it. Smoke it. 

You know what? If your gonna smoke pot do it in your house and don't come out till the effects of it are gone. Don't promote the smoking of pot to others. 

Alcohol is socially excepted for the simple fact of the matter its legal! Again with the 1920's people still drank and made it legal.


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## 109ROAMING (Nov 15, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> We're all friends here and ur opinion IS ur opinion...
> 
> Nuff said...
> 
> We're not gonna try and convince u otherwise....





beaupower32 said:


> Yep, wasnt trying to change your views on things Harrison, your opinion is your opinion, and I have no beef with that.



Exactly , agree 100%



B-17engineer said:


> Ok....... Daniel sorry if you took it the wrong way that was a general statement to others not you.
> .



No worries , as what Les and Beau said , your opinion is yours mate


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## Butters (Nov 15, 2009)

I'm happy to see that my assessment of you was correct 

That said, since you've voluntarily chosen to raise the stakes, I'm gonna push my luck and point out the glaring errors in your reasoning. I figger that a bit more rough-and-tumble won't hurt you.

Your dad's hearsay account of the inmate's story proves nothing. Because its conclusion derives from premises that are a fallacious conflation of correlation and causation. IOW, the fact that the inmate's friends happened to be high on pot when they committed manslaughter does not a priori mean that the marijuana was the cause of the act. A violence-prone person who uses marijuana will remain a violence-prone person, 'high' or not...

Now for this:

"Alcohol is 35 billion dollar industry, pot isn't. If you make that illegal it is going to be like the 1920's where you have smugglers from everywhere bringing alcohol. This leads to unnecessary violence, plus the majority of people who have problems with drinking have real life issues. For people who use pot medically they do have issues and so be it. Smoke it."

Umm...not only is your reasoning seriously flawed, you are also actually adding to the strength of MY argument...

First, you make a fallacious appeal to economic utility by implying that alcohol should be legal because a lot of people use it to make money. People also made a lot of money from the slave trade. Does that mean that it should be legal?

Second: You fallaciously ignore the fact that the marijuana industry is also a multi-billion dollar enterprise. The fact that the industry is illegal helps your argument not a whit. Not just because the money made via illegal activities has the same economic utility as any other money, but also because by explicitly appealling to the argument from economic utility in your prior support of the alcohol industry, you're hoisted on your own petard. IOW,you've voluntarily surrendered any credible claim to the moral high ground.

Third: The '1920's' scenario you paint is self-evidently equivalent to the state of the marijuana industry today. So what you're really doing is adding support to MY argument for the LEGALIZATION of marijuana.

Fourth: "...plus the majority of people who have problems with drinking have real life issues."
Assertion without evidence, pure and simple. Ambiguous to boot - What exactly are these 'real life issues' that justify alcohol abuse? Not to mention that it begs the question of whether or not EVERYONE has 'real life issues'. Which of course we all do...

Enough pedantry...The real point I'm making is that if you're going to raise the stakes, you first better make damn' sure that the cards you're holding are really as good as you think they are. Because there's some players you just can't bluff...

Thanks for being a good sport,

JL


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## Marcel (Nov 15, 2009)

Maximowitz said:


> It's been legal in Amsterdam for more years than I can recall. And we know those Dutch are murderous, vicious psycho hose-beasts....set upon World dominination..
> 
> 
> ...through prog-rock albums.
> ...



Yes we are. 
Actually a few weeks ago, a European research discovered that the Dutch use less drugs then other countries in the EU, although it's been "legal" for the last few decades. Shows that the policy is working



B-17engineer said:


> Alcohol is 35 billion dollar industry, pot isn't. If you make that illegal it is going to be like the 1920's where you have smugglers from everywhere bringing alcohol. This leads to unnecessary violence, plus the majority of people who have problems with drinking have real life issues. For people who use pot medically they do have issues and so be it. Smoke it.


Don't know where you've been, but drugs is about big bucks. The drugs market leads to smuggle, violence etc. (sounds familiar?)


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

Now what exactly is your argument then? If you tell me I am supporting argument then you are going with what I say? Where do you get slaves from? Slaves are inhumane and that's why they are illegal not because they made too much money. That is a completely different thing that is not to be brought into the conversation. 

If you wanna smoke your cam pot stay inside and don't go around promoting it and saying smoke pot! Smoke Pot! Because that is how young kids are loosing futures. There are some people who go around promoting you. 

Alcohol was on a MUCH larger scale than drugs are now. You don't have boats with grenade launchers and guns now do ya (1920's) ? Now you have un armed ships trying to sneak drugs in which if the drugs get through its not as violent so in no way whatsoever I am supporting your argument. 

The smoking of it alone is bad enough! Then add marijuana....

Butters why don't you look a couple posts back will ya? MY OPINION IS MY OPINION! I don't care if you have all the dam facts in the world to prove it! It's an illegal substance. That's why I don't like it. You may like it because it makes you feel good but you can try all you want. Theres not a snowballs chance in hell your changing my argument so keep wasting your time its amusing that your going to argue a 14 year old boy who wants to do something with his life. So please go on!! 

Well, whatever you say Butters I am not your pet. Stop telling me I am a good sport. Bottom line POT SHOULD STAY ILLEGAL. I don't care what you say about alcohol it wasn't the point neither are slaves so stop bringing things that are in a different land into this conversation it has nothing to do with it. 

Well I am super happy today because my dads brothers (Police Officers too) Arrested 4 people for possession of Marijuana today! Hope you love your jail time! Wooooot! 


Now Butters what exactly was your assessment of me. I am DYING to know.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> And my point is... it's still a drug.



So is alcohol and tobacco, both are far worse than marijuana. 

So many people smoke it anyhow, that it does not matter. Legalize it and tax the **** out of it. Not legalizing it or preventing these "coffee shops" is not going to keep people from doing it. 

Look at Amsterdam, it is a great place. Pot smokers heaven as well. Either way I do not care. I do not smoke it, but I know plenty of people that do and I would rather be around them when they have smoked then when they have blitzed drunk.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

I know. The point wasn't either. Solely Marijuana. Its an illegal substance is the word. Alcohol and tobacco aren't. That's a more fitting word.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> Whatever you guys have your feelings about pot... I have mine (. When people are smoking pot and die from things such as lung cancer etc. etc. I'll be thinking, you stupid a**holes threw your life away for something that madeyou morbid and miserable.



How many people die of lung cancer from smoking the occasional joint? I bet you will find that it is really really really really really low...

Besides if you want to ban anything that is harmful to your health lets ban all of this:

Alcohol
Cigarettes, Cigars, Chewing Tobacco

Lets move on to food: 

Pork products including Bacon
Burger King, McDonalds, etc.
Red Meat
Artificial Sweetener 
BBQ Grills (yeap they have been proven to be carcinogenic)
Hot Dogs and Hamburgers (see above, what would America be with Hot Dogs and Hamburgers?)
Fish (yeap pollution sucks don't it...)
Junk Food
French Fries

Yeap all of these products above have been proven to have carcinogenics if prepared in certain ways, or to cause cancer by themselves, let alone the health risks caused by being unhalthy all together. I could make a list that will go on for days.

See my point...


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 15, 2009)

Instead of basing it's wrong because it's illegal, give reasons why it should remain illegal for recreational use.

(Caffeine is one of the most widely used "psychotropic drug" in the world.)


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

Great! It isn't going to change my view. I don't care how anyone puts it. Shouldn't be legal.

Post isn't referring to you VB.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> My dads a police officer. He drinks but its being responsible because he doesn't drink so many bottles that he needs to get his stomach pumped.



That does not matter. Just drinking regularly (I am not talking in excess) is enough to cause liver damage. 

(to everyone else, I am not saying do not drink. Hell I love my Beer and Wine as well)


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

You could say that smoking pot could cause short term affects that if something terrible were to happen could cause long term effects....due to you being in a euphoric state of mind and slow reaction time right?

What does this have to do with food! I don't have a clue why you are bringing food into this. Food is different. You don't get high from food, you don't get slow reaction time from food. I don't get why this has to do with food or slaves.... like Butters was saying something about slaves....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> Neil I don't get why you are comparing Caffeine and Marijuana......



Because it is a psychoactive stimulant drug. You should actually read how it effects the human body. In moderation it does not really harm you, just like alcohol and even just like pot.



lesofprimus said:


> Caffeine and Nicotine are very addictive substances Harrison..



Very true. I drank so much Mountain Dew in Iraq that I had a caffeine addiction. I could not even sleep at night without popping open a 2 liter bottle of the Dew.


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## pbfoot (Nov 15, 2009)

The cops would have to be pretty bored to pop anyone for possesion up here . the only thing they'd go for is the gro ops
Still don't smoke anything amd you can't gp wrong


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

I should actually read. I have read.Thanks. It has no effects like pot or alcohol. 

"It’s main ingredient is THC (delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol), a mind-altering chemical. Marijuana produced today has a level of THC that is up to 25 times higher than the type sold in the 1960s"

So people are looking for more than what marijuana is aren't they? hmmm.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> And? Its not harmful.........



Wrong! Think again...


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## wheelsup_cavu (Nov 15, 2009)

But what about this... 

Link


Wheels


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

No. Its not nearly as harmful as any drug like Pot, Cocaine, and Heroin. So I don't need to think again.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2009)

Marcel said:


> Yes we are.
> Actually a few weeks ago, a European research discovered that the Dutch use less drugs then other countries in the EU, although it's been "legal" for the last few decades. Shows that the policy is working



I have actually read the same thing. I think that it is because in the Netherlands you can readily get it. When it is easily obtainable it looses its appeal. When it is illegal, it makes people want to do it more. It is like telling a child they can't do something.

By the way is the Bulldog still around in Amsterdam?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> I know. The point wasn't either. Solely Marijuana. Its an illegal substance is the word. Alcohol and tobacco aren't. That's a more fitting word.



Why are they not illegal, when they are far worse?


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

They're socially acceptable.Alcohol is in the bible. Outlaw it and there is a problem.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> You could say that smoking pot could cause short term affects that if something terrible were to happen could cause long term effects....due to you being in a euphoric state of mind and slow reaction time right?



Alcohol does the same thing. Whats the point?



B-17engineer said:


> What does this have to do with food! I don't have a clue why you are bringing food into this. Food is different. You don't get high from food, you don't get slow reaction time from food. I don't get why this has to do with food or slaves.... like Butters was saying something about slaves....



Hey chill out! Don't get your panties in a wad. As Dan pointed out we are all friends here. You wanted this conversation...

The reason I bring food into it, is because you keep bringing up the fact that pot should remain illegal because of health reasons and the fact "that it is wasting peoples lives" and the fact that pot can cause lung cancer. Those products that I posted above, all cause cancer as well! Should people that eat them be accused of "wasting there lives", should they be illegal.

"Oh boy Harrison, put that grilled steak down right this very moment! It might cause cancer!"

Get my point...


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## piet (Nov 15, 2009)

•Problems with memory and learning 
•Distorted perception 
•Difficulty with thinking and problem solving 
•Loss of coordination 
•Increased heart rate 
•Anxiety, paranoia and panic attacks


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2009)

pbfoot said:


> The cops would have to be pretty bored to pop anyone for possesion up here . the only thing they'd go for is the gro ops
> Still don't smoke anything amd you can't gp wrong



That is the same thing over here. In Germany it is not legal, but they tolerate it when it is for personal use. As long as you are not out dealing it and so forth and you only have a small amount for a personal joint, they don't bother with you.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

Not really. After Dan pointed out that I should stop being on the defensive Butters went at me. I am not going to sit and take the blows. 

I always thought you didn't like me though  

But pot is an illegal substance. I don't care about health issues. It sucks for the user if something happens to them.

THANKS PIET! Although I don't care about side effects it reinforces why Pot shouldn't be around.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> Not really. After Dan pointed out that I should stop being on the defensive Butters went at me. I am not going to sit and take the blows.
> 
> I always thought you didn't like me though
> 
> ...





piet said:


> •Problems with memory and learning
> •Distorted perception
> •Difficulty with thinking and problem solving
> •Loss of coordination
> ...


Except for the increased heart rate (not sure about that one) it could just as easily be alcohol's side effects he is describing.


Wheels


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## Negative Creep (Nov 15, 2009)

I smoked it a fiar bit in my teens but don't any more. No issues at all stopping, just decided I didn't want to. I still think this country would be a much better place if people went out to get stoned rather than drunk


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

Ok wheels. That maybe true. But why has the TCH (Whatever the drug is) has been increased 25% since the 60's. Looks like the people want something more than what Marijuana is. 

Negative. I think more people could drink responsibly than use marijuana responsibly


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> I should actually read. I have read.Thanks. It has no effects like pot or alcohol.



Again not true at all. I had a caffeine addiction. When I did not get my caffeine, I became restless, could not sleep (yeah it actually prevented me from sleeping), I had headaches and I became very aggressive toward others. 

Pretty bad effects if you ask me.

Just a few exerts on caffeine addiction:

_"Because adenosine, in part, serves to regulate blood pressure by causing vasodilation, the increased effects of adenosine due to caffeine withdrawal cause the blood vessels of the head to dilate, leading to an excess of blood in the head and causing a headache and nausea. Reduced catecholamine activity may cause feelings of fatigue and drowsiness. A reduction in serotonin levels when caffeine use is stopped can cause anxiety, irritability, inability to concentrate and diminished motivation to initiate or to complete daily tasks; in extreme cases it may cause mild depression. Together, these effects have come to be known as a "crash".

Withdrawal symptoms—possibly including headache, irritability, an inability to concentrate, drowsiness, insomnia and pain in the stomach, upper body, and joints[74]—may appear within 12 to 24 hours after discontinuation of caffeine intake, peak at roughly 48 hours, and usually last from one to five days, representing the time required for the number of adenosine receptors in the brain to revert to "normal" levels, uninfluenced by caffeine consumption. Analgesics, such as aspirin, can relieve the pain symptoms, as can a small dose of caffeine.[75] Most effective is a combination of both an analgesic and a small amount of caffeine."

"n large amounts, and especially over extended periods of time, caffeine can lead to a condition known as caffeinism.[77][78] Caffeinism usually combines caffeine dependency with a wide range of unpleasant physical and mental conditions including nervousness, irritability, anxiety, tremulousness, muscle twitching (hyperreflexia), insomnia, headaches, respiratory alkalosis, and heart palpitations.[79][80] Furthermore, because caffeine increases the production of stomach acid, high usage over time can lead to peptic ulcers, erosive esophagitis, and gastroesophageal reflux disease.[81]

There are four caffeine-induced psychiatric disorders recognized by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition: caffeine intoxication, caffeine-induced anxiety disorder, caffeine-induced sleep disorder, and caffeine-related disorder not otherwise specified (NOS)."

"An acute overdose of caffeine, usually in excess of about 300 milligrams, dependent on body weight and level of caffeine tolerance, can result in a state of central nervous system over-stimulation called caffeine intoxication (DSM-IV 305.90),[82] or colloquially the "caffeine jitters". The symptoms of caffeine intoxication are not unlike overdoses of other stimulants. It may include restlessness, nervousness, excitement, insomnia, flushing of the face, increased urination, gastrointestinal disturbance, muscle twitching, a rambling flow of thought and speech, irritability, irregular or rapid heart beat, and psychomotor agitation.[80] In cases of much larger overdoses, mania, depression, lapses in judgment, disorientation, disinhibition, delusions, hallucinations, and psychosis may occur, and rhabdomyolysis (breakdown of skeletal muscle tissue) can be provoked.[83][84]

In cases of extreme overdose, death can result. The median lethal dose (LD50) given orally, is 192 milligrams per kilogram in rats.[2] The LD50 of caffeine in humans is dependent on weight and individual sensitivity and estimated to be about 150 to 200 milligrams per kilogram of body mass, roughly 80 to 100 cups of coffee for an average adult taken within a limited time frame that is dependent on half-life. Though achieving lethal dose with caffeine would be exceptionally difficult with regular coffee, there have been reported deaths from overdosing on caffeine pills, with serious symptoms of overdose requiring hospitalization occurring from as little as 2 grams of caffeine. An exception to this would be taking a drug such as fluvoxamine which blocks the liver enzyme responsible for the metabolism of caffeine, thus increasing the central effects and blood concentrations of caffeine dramatically at 5-fold. It is not contraindicated, but highly advisable to minimize the intake of caffeinated beverages, as drinking one cup of coffee will have the same effect as drinking five under normal conditions.[85][86][87][88] Death typically occurs due to ventricular fibrillation brought about by effects of caffeine on the cardiovascular system.

Treatment of severe caffeine intoxication is generally supportive, providing treatment of the immediate symptoms, but if the patient has very high serum levels of caffeine then peritoneal dialysis, hemodialysis, or hemofiltration may be required."

"Two infrequently diagnosed caffeine-induced disorders that are recognized by the American Psychological Association (APA) are caffeine-induced sleep disorder and caffeine-induced anxiety disorder, which can result from long-term excessive caffeine intake.

In the case of caffeine-induced sleep disorder, an individual regularly ingests high doses of caffeine sufficient to induce a significant disturbance in his or her sleep, sufficiently severe to warrant clinical attention.[82]

"In some individuals, the large amounts of caffeine can induce anxiety severe enough to necessitate clinical attention. This caffeine-induced anxiety disorder can take many forms, from generalized anxiety to panic attacks, obsessive-compulsive symptoms, or even phobic symptoms.[82] Because this condition can mimic organic mental disorders, such as panic disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, bipolar disorder, or even schizophrenia, a number of medical professionals believe caffeine-intoxicated people are routinely misdiagnosed and unnecessarily medicated when the treatment for caffeine-induced psychosis would simply be to stop further caffeine intake.[89] A study in the British Journal of Addiction concluded that caffeinism, although infrequently diagnosed, may afflict as many as one person in ten of the population.[78] Co administration of theanine was shown to greatly reduce this caffeine-induced anxiety."
_

*So, it does not have bad effects like pot or alcohol?*



B-17engineer said:


> No. Its not nearly as harmful as any drug like Pot, Cocaine, and Heroin. So I don't need to think again.



We are not talking about Cocaine or Heroin. It is obvious that those should be illegal. Pot is nothing like Cocain or Heroin...



B-17engineer said:


> They're socially acceptable.



So is pot...

Sorry but that is not a good argument. 



B-17engineer said:


> I always thought you didn't like me though



Why would you think that?


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

No its not. 

"Want a drug that could lower your risk of diabetes, Parkinson's disease, and colon cancer? That could lift your mood and treat headaches? That could lower your risk of cavities?

If it sounds too good to be true, think again.

Coffee, the much maligned but undoubtedly beloved beverage, just made headlines for possibly cutting the risk of the latest disease epidemic, type 2 diabetes. And the real news seems to be that the more you drink, the better.
Reducing Disease Risk

After analyzing data on 126,000 people for as long as 18 years, Harvard researchers calculate that compared with not partaking in America's favorite morning drink, downing one to three cups of caffeinated coffee daily can reduce diabetes risk by single digits. But having six cups or more each day slashed men's risk by 54% and women's by 30% over java avoiders.

Though the scientists give the customary "more research is needed" before they recommend you do overtime at Starbuck's to specifically prevent diabetes, their findings are very similar to those in a less-publicized Dutch study. And perhaps more importantly, it's the latest of hundreds of studies suggesting that coffee may be something of a health food -- especially in higher amounts.

In recent decades, some 19,000 studies have been done examining coffee's impact on health. And for the most part, their results are as pleasing as a gulp of freshly brewed Breakfast Blend for the 108 million Americans who routinely enjoy this traditionally morning -- and increasingly daylong -- ritual. In practical terms, regular coffee drinkers include the majority of U.S. adults and a growing number of children.

"Overall, the research shows that coffee is far more healthful than it is harmful," says Tomas DePaulis, PhD, research scientist at Vanderbilt University's Institute for Coffee Studies, which conducts its own medical research and tracks coffee studies from around the world. "For most people, very little bad comes from drinking it, but a lot of good."

Consider this: At least six studies indicate that people who drink coffee on a regular basis are up to 80% less likely to develop Parkinson's, with three showing the more they drink, the lower the risk. Other research shows that compared to not drinking coffee, at least two cups daily can translate to a 25% reduced risk of colon cancer, an 80% drop in liver cirrhosis risk, and nearly half the risk of gallstones.

Coffee even offsets some of the damage caused by other vices, some research indicates. "People who smoke and are heavy drinkers have less heart disease and liver damage when they regularly consume large amounts of coffee compared to those who don't," says DePaulis.

There's also some evidence that coffee may help manage asthma and even control attacks when medication is unavailable, stop a headache, boost mood, and even prevent cavities. Reducing Disease Risk continued...

Is it the caffeine? The oodles of antioxidants in coffee beans, some of which become especially potent during the roasting process? Even other mysterious properties that warrant this intensive study?

Actually, yes.

Some of coffee's reported benefits are a direct result of its higher caffeine content: An eight ounce cup of drip-brewed coffee contains about 85 mg -- about three and a half times more than the same serving of tea or cola or one ounce of chocolate.

"The evidence is very strong that regular coffee consumption reduces risk of Parkinson's disease and for that, it's directly related to caffeine," DePaulis tells WebMD. "In fact, Parkinson's drugs are now being developed that contain a derivative of caffeine based on this evidence."

Caffeine is also what helps in treating asthma and headaches. Though not widely publicized, a single dose of pain reliever such as Anacin or Excedrin contains up to 120 milligrams -- what's in a hefty mug o' Joe.
Boost to Athleticism

It's also caffeine -- and not coffee, per se -- that makes java a powerful aid in enhancing athletic endurance and performance, says physiologist and longtime coffee researcher Terry Graham, PhD, of the University of Guelph in Canada. So powerful, in fact, that until recently, caffeine in coffee or other forms was deemed a "controlled" substance by the Olympic Games Committee, meaning that it could be consumed only in small, designated amounts by competing athletes.

"What caffeine likely does is stimulate the brain and nervous system to do things differently," he tells WebMD. "That may include signaling you to ignore fatigue or recruit extra units of muscle for intense athletic performance. Caffeine may even have a direct effect on muscles themselves, causing them to produce a stronger contraction. But what's amazing about it is that unlike some performance-enhancing manipulation some athletes do that are specific for strength or sprinting or endurance, studies show that caffeine positively enhances all of these things."

How does this brew affect growing minds and bodies? Very nicely, it seems, says DePaulis. Coffee, as you probably know, makes you more alert, which can boost concentration. But claims that it improves a child's academic performance can be exaggerated. Coffee-drinking kids may do better on school tests because they're more awake, but most task-to-task lab studies suggest that coffee doesn't really improve mental performance, says DePaulis.

But it helps kids' minds in another way. "There recently was a study from Brazil finding that children who drink coffee with milk each day are less likely to have depression than other children," he tells WebMD. "In fact, no studies show that coffee in reasonable amounts is in any way harmful to children."

On the flip side, it's clear that coffee isn't for everyone. Its legendary jolt in excess doses -- that is, more than whatever your individual body can tolerate -- can increase nervousness, hand trembling, and cause rapid heartbeat. Coffee may also raise cholesterol levels in some people and may contribute to artery clogging. But most recent large studies show no significant adverse effects on most healthy people, although pregnant women, heart patients, and those at risk for osteoporosis may still be advised to limit or avoid coffee. 
Boost to Athleticism continued...

The bottom line: "People who already drink a lot of coffee don't have to feel 'guilty' as long as coffee does not affect their daily life," says Hu. "They may actually benefit from coffee habits in the long run."

In other words, consume enough caffeine -- whether it's from coffee or another source -- and you will likely run faster, last longer and be stronger. What's enough? As little as one cup can offer some benefit, but the real impact comes from at least two mugs, says Graham. By comparison, it'd take at least eight glasses of cola to get the same effect, which isn't exactly conducive for running a marathon.

But the harder you exercise, the more benefit you may get from coffee. "Unfortunately, where you see the enhancing effects from caffeine is in hard-working athletes, who are able to work longer and somewhat harder," says Graham, who has studied the effects of caffeine and coffee for nearly two decades. "If you a recreational athlete who is working out to reduce weight or just feel better, you're not pushing yourself hard enough to get an athletic benefit from coffee or other caffeinated products."

But you can get other benefits from coffee that have nothing to do with caffeine. "Coffee is loaded with antioxidants, including a group of compounds called quinines that when administered to lab rats, increases their insulin sensitivity" he tells WebMD. This increased sensitivity improves the body's response to insulin.

That may explain why in that new Harvard study, those drinking decaf coffee but not tea beverages also showed a reduced diabetes risk, though it was half as much as those drinking caffeinated coffee.

"We don't know exactly why coffee is beneficial for diabetes," lead researcher Frank Hu, MD, tells WebMD. "It is possible that both caffeine and other compounds play important roles. Coffee has large amounts of antioxidants such as chlorogenic acid and tocopherols, and minerals such as magnesium. All these components have been shown to improve insulin sensitivity and glucose metabolism."

Meanwhile, Italian researchers credit another compound called trigonelline, which gives coffee its aroma and bitter taste, for having both antibacterial and anti-adhesive properties to help prevent dental cavities from forming. There are other theories for other conditions. " 

Health Benefits of Coffee - WebMD


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## wheelsup_cavu (Nov 15, 2009)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> So is pot...
> 
> Sorry but that is not a good argument.



I don't think it's as socially acceptabe as caffeine or nicotine.
IMO, If it was it would be legalized by now.


Wheels


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Why would you think that?



Well after my whole introduction and the Ju-87.... then the PM about me BS'ing when I first joined I thought I'd have a bad reputation with you. 

Pot socially accepted by a fraction of people who smoke and drink coffee.


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## Maestro (Nov 15, 2009)

Just a side note : legality is relative. Most drugs that are now legal were illegal back in the day... And most drugs that are illegal now were legal back in the day.

As an example, alcohol was illegal in the 1920s. But in the late 1800s/early 1900s, you could buy Opium and Morphine completely freely at any drugstore.

So your point saying that pot should stay illegal because it is currently illegal just doesn't hold water. You need to bring up facts.

Personally, I couldn't care less if pot was legal or not. I never smoked it and (most likely) never will.

One point though, a recent study proves that smoking weed in your teenage duplicate the chances of developping a psychiatric desease in your adulthood. (I.E. Skizophrenia (sorry, can't spell).)


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

It's an illegal substance. It is illegal for reasons. I said why Caffeine, Alcohol and Nicotine are around. So I have something to differentiate why pot isn't around. Half the people you see on TV are like any alcoholics. Slurred words etc. So what I am getting out of this as a young kid is that you guys are glorifying pot because it isn't as bad as alcohol. After everything has been said, that's all I'm getting.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> No its not.
> 
> "Want a drug that could lower your risk of diabetes, Parkinson's disease, and colon cancer? That could lift your mood and treat headaches? That could lower your risk of cavities?
> 
> If it sounds too good to be true, think again.



Caffeine is in very sweet drinks as well, and therefore contributes to cavities. I should know, I destroyed my teeth in Iraq and had to have them all repaired when I returned. 

Too much soda (yeap caffeine is in that as well) can cause diabetes because of the sugar levels.

Still a bad argument on your part. Sorry...



B-17engineer said:


> Health Benefits of Coffee - WebMD



Does not change the fact that it has bad side effects as well.

For the same arguments you make that "prove" that caffeine is good, you can do for marijuana as well. Yeap thats right it has benefits as well:

The Health Risks and Benefits of Using Marijuana: Does One Outweigh the Other? - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

Benefits of pot - AskMen.com UK

Continued...

As for the myths here are some more:

_"health risk myths realities
Marijuana Overdose
There is no existing evidence of anyone dying of a marijuana overdose. Tests performed on mice have shown that the ratio of cannabinoids (the chemicals in marijuana that make you high) necessary for overdose to the amount necessary for intoxication is 40,000:1.

For comparison's sake, that ratio for alcohol is generally between 4:1 and 10:1. Alcohol overdoses claim approximately 5,000 casualties yearly, but marijuana overdoses kill no one as far as any official reports.

Brain Damage
Marijuana is psychoactive because it stimulates certain brain receptors, but it does not produce toxins that kill them (like alcohol), and it does not wear them out as other drugs may. There is no evidence that marijuana use causes brain damage. Studies performed on actual human populations will confirm these results, even for chronic marijuana users (up to 18 joints per day) after many years of use.

In fact, following the publication of two 1977 JAMA studies, the American Medical Association (AMA) officially announced its support for the decriminalization of marijuana.

In reality, marijuana has the effect of slightly increasing alpha-wave activity in your brain. Alpha waves are generally associated with meditative and relaxed states, which are, in turn, often associated with human creativity.

Memory
Marijuana does impair short-term memory, but only during intoxication. Although the authoritative studies on marijuana use seem to agree that there is no residual impairment following intoxication, persistent impairment of short-term memory has been noted in chronic marijuana smokers, up to 6 and 12 weeks following abstinence.

Heart Problems
It is accepted in medical circles today that marijuana use causes no evident long-term cardiovascular problems for normal persons. Marijuana smoking, however, does cause changes in the heart and body's circulation characteristic of stress, which may complicate preexisting cardiovascular problems like hypertension, cerebrovascular disease, and coronary atherosclerosis. Marijuana's effects on blood pressure are complex and inconsistent as of yet.

Hormones
Chronic marijuana use has not been found to alter testosterone or other sex hormone levels. In contrast, heavy alcohol use is known to lower these same testosterone levels.

Reproductive Damage
No trustworthy study has ever shown that marijuana use damages the reproductive system, or causes chromosome breakage. Studies of actual human populations have failed to demonstrate that marijuana adversely affects the reproductive system. Claims that marijuana use may impair hormone production, menstrual cycles, or fertility in females are both unproven and unfounded.

The Immune System
Studies in which lab rats were injected with extremely large quantities of THC (the active compound in marijuana) have found that marijuana (in such unrealistically huge quantities) does have an "immunosuppressive effect" in those lab rats, in that it temporarily shuts off certain cells in the liver called lymphocytes and macrophages. These macrophages are useful in fighting off bacterial, not viral, infections.

But this is only for the duration of intoxication. There also exists some evidence that marijuana metabolites remain in the lungs for up to seven months after smoking has ceased, possibly affecting the immune system of the lungs (but not by turning the cells off).

This said, doctors and researchers are still not sure that the immune system is actually negatively affected in realistic situations since there are no numbers to support the idea. In fact, three studies showed that THC might have actually stimulated the immune system in the people studied.

Cancer
Smoking marijuana has the potential to cause both bronchitis and cancer of the lungs, throat, and neck, but this is generally no different than inhaling any other burnt carbon-containing matter since they all increase the number of lesions (and therefore possible infections) in your airways.

The Gateway Effect
Marijuana use has not been found to act as a gateway drug to the use of harder drugs. Studies show that when the Dutch partially legalized marijuana in the 70's, heroin and cocaine use substantially declined, despite a slight increase in marijuana use.

If the stepping stone theory were true, use should have gone up rather than down. In reality, it appears that marijuana use tends to substitute for the use of relatively more dangerous hard drugs like cocaine and heroin, rather than lead to their use.

Thus, oftentimes strict marijuana laws themselves are the most significant factor involved in moving on to harder drugs like cocaine. Such is the case in Nevada and Arizona, the states toughest on marijuana use."_



wheelsup_cavu said:


> I don't think it's as socially acceptabe as caffeine or nicotine.
> IMO, If it was it would be legalized by now.
> 
> 
> Wheels



I should have put this after that ().

It was sort of meant as a joke, having to do with socially acceptable as in any college campus...



B-17engineer said:


> Well after my whole introduction and the Ju-87.... then the PM about me BS'ing when I first joined I thought I'd have a bad reputation with you.



I don't hold grudges. You turned yourself around 100%.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

First link has more risks than good. 

As for the myths. The Heart issues says when cooking marijuana it affects the heart. That alone is bad. Half of them back up the reasons why its bad. 


So people need Marijuana to keep from being depressed? A bit weird. Still the fact the THC has been increased by 25% in the past 40 years suggest people want more outta marijuana for what it is. 

Oh and thanks


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> It's an illegal substance. It is illegal for reasons. I said why Caffeine, Alcohol and Nicotine are around. So I have something to differentiate why pot isn't around. Half the people you see on TV are like any alcoholics. Slurred words etc. So what I am getting out of this as a young kid is that you guys are glorifying pot because it isn't as bad as alcohol. After everything has been said, that's all I'm getting.



Then you are not trying to understand what we are saying.

NO one here is glorifying pot use. I don't smoke it, so why would I glorify it. Yeah I did a bit in college, whats the big deal. I don't do it now, because could care less about it.

What we are saying however is that pot use is much less dangerous than alcohol and tobacco use. Facts are facts...

You keep giving reasons why it should be illegal, and we give you reasons why a). other drugs are just as bad but are legal, or b). things that counteract those "negative" things you use. There is always a counter to a reason.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

Why tobacco? Believe me I think Tobacco is just another way to ruin a life. But you don't get high off tobacco you don't get nearly as many bad affects as you would with Marijuana.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> First link has more risks than good.
> 
> As for the myths. The Heart issues says when cooking marijuana it affects the heart. That alone is bad. Half of them back up the reasons why its bad.



This goes back to my original point, just because something has bad side effects, should it be illegal?

Answer the question honestly...



B-17engineer said:


> So people need Marijuana to keep from being depressed? A bit weird. Still the fact the THC has been increased by 25% in the past 40 years suggest people want more outta marijuana for what it is.



Ever thought that people might just like it and it might be becoming more and more socially excepted?


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

Nope. Everything else shouldn't because it isn't going to make you do dumb things like Illegal substances do.Illegal substances change peoples lives so yes for marijuana and other substances should be. Other things no. 

But why add more ? If it is what it is why no leave it? Why make it worse?


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## Amsel (Nov 15, 2009)

I don't care if it is legal or not. To each his own. In my opinion, there should be severe penalties for supplying anyone under 21 with weed. Of all my aquaintences from high school, there is a marked difference in the lives of those that smoked weed heavily during adolescence and those that maybe smoked occasionally or not at all. It may seem harmless to adults but for teenagers the effects on the brain are harmful.

If marijuana is to be legalized then there should be a law implemented that somehow only legalizes American weed. A way to make it cheaper then weed smuggled in through Mexico. The skyrocketing violence in Mexico over the drug trade is alarming and will soon become a huge national security issue especially in the Southwest.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

I agree fully with Amsel! I said this earlier. I don't want drugs but if the government is dumber than the already are and legalize it. Stay in your dam house smoke and wait till the affects wear off.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> Why tobacco?



Because people smoke more cigarettes than they would smoke joints. There are over 19 substances in cigarettes for example that are known to cause cancer. The WHO estimates that aprox. 5 million people die each year from smoking tobacco, 100 million died in the 20th century from it. 

How many died from smoking pot? Studies have shown that there are no known cases of "pot overdose" or death caused by marijuana.

So what is more harmful to your health?

The point is, someone that smokes cigarettes or drinks alcohol is harming themselves and accepting the risk. It is not harming you by them doing so (to an extent, 2nd hand smoke can be harmful). The same however can be said about marijuana. Someone else smoking it, is not effecting you. Let them except the risks, who cares...




B-17engineer said:


> But you don't get high off tobacco you don't get nearly as many bad affects as you would with Marijuana.



Not true again...

Each and every drug out there causes its own form of "high". The effects that a person smoking has, are a "high", (raised blood pressure, raised awareness, calm feeling, etc...)

Smoking has many many more bad side effects. Trust me I know. I used to be a cigarette smoker. Fortunately I have quit...

Read all of this below:

Health effects of tobacco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



B-17engineer said:


> Nope. Everything else shouldn't because it isn't going to make you do dumb things like Illegal substances do.Illegal substances change peoples lives so yes for marijuana and other substances should be.



 You are so wrong. Sorry...

Well you are not wrong, you are just blind to a few things. Answer these questions:

How does alcohol not make you do dumb things?

How does alcohol not change your life? 

How does marijuana make you do dumb things?

But why add more ? If it is what it is why no leave it? Why make it worse?


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

Ok. I'll give you that. But I just don't like the whole idea of the leaglization of it. That's the whole idea. Not comparing it to other drugs. I am not saying alcohol doesn't do that. I just don't think the stuff should be legal. Marijuana makes you do dumb things in academics my brother knows kids in high school who smoke (They try in school) my brother doesn't talk to them but they are failing all classes. They are trying but no results. 

I have to go eat dinner. Have a nice night.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2009)

Amsel said:


> I don't care if it is legal or not. To each his own.



And that is the whole point as well. To each there own.

I do agree though that just like tobacco and alcohol it should not be legal for minors.



B-17engineer said:


> if the government is dumber than the already are and legalize it. S



So the Dutch are dumb....


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

Don't know about Dutch government but US government is.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> Ok. I'll give you that. But I just don't like the whole idea of the leaglization of it.



That is your right. No one is arguing that. 




B-17engineer said:


> Marijuana makes you do dumb things in academics my brother knows kids in high school who smoke (They try in school) my brother doesn't talk to them but they are failing all classes. They are trying but no results.



I doubt that it is the marijuana that is making them fail there classes.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

But they do try. So it must have something to do.


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## piet (Nov 15, 2009)

The dutch covernment is dumb! believe me


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## pbfoot (Nov 15, 2009)

I still toke.... although I never did while in the military.... to me it just takes the edge off after a day of busting my ass .


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

I respect that. It is your personal choice. I just didn't like the idea.


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## Erich (Nov 15, 2009)

you must be off the planet if dope is good for the soul and no reasoning behind it can change my mind. my dear wifes second bro died of cannibus poisoning with his brain during atopsy looked like swiss cheese... sorry it is medically proven it is neither safe or good for you, I was waiting for the test results with my lovely bride after her bro died at the Portland hospital, you should of seen this vibrant 50 something man fall down to a crooked bent over 95 year old walking like a penguin uttering nothing as he lost his communique' for speech just starring blindly. guess what I am getting at is I can think of **cking myself up in another way and do it healthy like riding my bike till may *ss falls off

leave it to my state to be the first on the hit list, other states will follow under the same ' oh yeah it's safe genere"

sorry guys but I also have a good friend as a climbing partner back in the late 70's when we were training on Mt. Hood up to my north and east of Portland when I lived there almost succumb to the evil weed. he is still mucked up to this day though is trying to get his life on track.

have nothing positive in any way shape or form to back weed in any good way. Crap we are one of the largest growing areas in the states, and drgndog can easily back this up as it is almost in his backyard. good ol "Rogue Gold" and I do not mean the local cheese.


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## Maximowitz (Nov 15, 2009)

Any chance of that in English Erich? I think I missed 90% of your post. I can only assume you had a couple of joints before you wrote that with all those spelling and grammatical errors?

There is no medical proof cannabis killed anyone.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

Pot is bad. I'm sure you can make some sense. His wifes second brother died of cannibus poisoning and his brain at the autopsy looked like swiss cheese. Pot is bad and in no way good. 

Nothing positive about Marijuana which was my point all along


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## Erich (Nov 15, 2009)

90 % lost < figures it must be all the smoke from bad doobie. everyone needs to make the choice one way or another, I was somewhat influenced during high school and brief stint in college before someone had the brain fart to send those not so willing on overseas escapades.

my feelings is note everything you can about this stuff, we are all created different and how we are going to handle drugs of any type injesting through mouth, nose or ears


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> Pot is bad. I'm sure you can make some sense. His wifes second brother died of cannibus poisoning and his brain at the autopsy looked like swiss cheese. Pot is bad and in no way good.
> 
> Nothing positive about Marijuana which was my point all along



So you are stating there is no medical use for it?


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## Maximowitz (Nov 15, 2009)

Well Harry, you have a long boring puberty ahead of you. Best of luck.


I take it f*cking girls is out of the picture too?


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

I am. Unless someone is terminally ill with cancer (not even then really) there is no cure. If you need pot to not be depressed anymore that's an issue.


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## Erich (Nov 15, 2009)

VB medical use for what ? those poor folks in need need some good vibes by having positive and caring friends, we have all that make weed legal and it has been going on here since the 60's when communes were becoming the rage.

if you all want a positive outlook on life then get outside of your hole and go exercise, and I know for some this will be a struggle


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

What the hell? Ok I don't want to waste my life so I am going to be boring. That's a bit unreasonable. Did Bill Gates smoke pot? Did Edison Smoke pot? Did Newton smoke pot? Nope they were all famous. 

Go smoke a joint "It'll magically heal you!" 

F*cking ridiculous BS


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## Maximowitz (Nov 15, 2009)

Bill Gates probably did magic mushrooms...which would explain microsoft os.


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 15, 2009)

Some interesting reading. Among other things It has shown benefits to patients with Glaucoma as well as a few others.

AMA - Report 6 of the Council on Scientific Affairs (A-01) Full t

Personally I have never tried it, and have no desire. But I would also not ignore the medical potential benefits of it. To me it should be treated just like any other controlled drug. Those that medically need it should have access to it, those that don't, don't.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

Well I apologize that I don't want to ruin my life with something as unnecessary as Marijuana and it does kill people.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

vikingBerserker said:


> Some interesting reading. Amoung other things It has shown benefits to patients with Glaucoma as well as a few others.
> 
> AMA - Report 6 of the Council on Scientific Affairs (A-01) Full t
> 
> Personally I have never tried it, and have no desire. But I would also not ignore the potential benefits of it.



Why would you *Smoke* if your already sick.


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 15, 2009)

Is that not the time most people take medical drugs, then they are sick?


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

But it you are already very very ill, why waste your few days or months smoking. Smoking in itself is bad without the marijuana.


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## Butters (Nov 15, 2009)

Erich,

I'd never heard of anything like the brain-destroying cannabis 'poisoning' you refer to, and nor did a cursory Google search turn up anything remotely like what you've described.

Can you supply a link to a credible source that will verifiy your claim?

B-17: You completely misinterpreted my post. I'm willing to accept that the fault lies with my own writing deficiencies, but I will not respond unless you can assure me that you understand that I was not attacking YOU, but only your argument. And that you understand that I was neither intending to patronize, nor humiliate you.

JL


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

All I am saying is that its my opinion. No matter how many facts you have I am not changing my mind.


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## Lucky13 (Nov 15, 2009)

That's alright Harrison, nobody tries to make you change you mind, far from it my friend...
This is probably (I'm sure that I'm wrong) the least dangerous drugs if you compare to cocain, crack, heroin etc.....


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> But it you are already very very ill, why waste your few days or months smoking. Smoking in itself is bad without the marijuana.



Well, if you are dying and the use of this either helps you directly or dealing with side effects of other drugs, why live the rest of your short life in pain??



B-17engineer said:


> No matter how many facts you have I am not changing my mind.



No offense, but that statement scares the hell out of me.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

Exactly. Why live it in pain by smoking the crap. 

Sorry  not trying to be a smart*ss


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## Lucky13 (Nov 15, 2009)

That's cool mate, I don't think that anyone think that you are...  I think that it has been proven (might be wrong again) that this stuff _do_ help people that has somekind of illness, help them in such a way that modern medicin do _not_ do. I think that I read something about a case here in Scotland last year, about an older lady, well 50+ I think, that grown her own stuff because it eased her pain, and did so in a way that the medicin prescribed(?) to her did _not_....

...and honestly, what do we know what they put in medicin today.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

VB here its an illegal substance. On this matter I honestly don't give a S*IT if you can put all the facts in the world. ITS illegal FOR A REASON only certain people use it for medical purposes for a REASON.

(Not directed at u VB just in general.)


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## BikerBabe (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> But it you are already very very ill, why waste your few days or months smoking. Smoking in itself is bad without the marijuana.



Because if marihuana is one of the very few things that'd make your miserable life more bearable, so that you could enjoy at least a little of the time you've got left, then my bet is that you would smoke the stuff.

I don't mind marihuana as a medical treatment, prescribed by doctors and used as a medical resource to make someone's life bearable, it's the illegal use I dislike.
I've seen a friend go from a normal, sensibly, reasonable young man to someone who claimed that he could move things just by thinking of it, and he also claimed that there were spirits or ghosts in his apartment that he could talk with, and learn stuff about healing with herbs and mind powers. 
And he had started smoking that stuff every day while I knew him.
I did what I could to try and stop him from smoking that sh**, but no-no-no-no - it was good for you, it didn't do any harm, and it wasn't any more dangerous than getting a beer with the guys after work. 
Right.

Well - you can only do so much, and after that our friendship dwindled out, mainly because he didn't want to hear me dissing his "good stuff", and because we both lost our patience with each other. He was too far gone for my taste in friends, and according to him, I was getting too conservative and square for his liking.
And brutally honestly speaking; by that time the loss of him as a friend became more of a relief than anything else.

I met him a few years ago after he quit the stuff, and he went back to being almost normal, but he was easier to stress and he still had some pretty exotic ideas about how life worked out, but it was still a lot better than his spirit-talk-bulls***.
We don't see each other any more, and to tell you guys the truth, it doesn't bother me. It's a relief by now.
So there's no way that anyone can convince me that smoking that stuff for so-called "recreational" purposes will do any good for anyone.

But given that the drug is being used under controlled medical circumstances and in a more pure form (- for example in hospitals and hospices) than what you can get on the street, so that you avoid the worst of the sad side effects, I'd say that it can be a help for those who are terminally or chronically ill. And that's okay with me.

Cheers,

Maria.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

Thanks Maria. Glad your friend quit. So that in itself proves that it isn't as 'healing' as its portrayed to be. It may heal. But not to the extent people say it does.I understand it isn't the worst illegal substance. But its still an illegal substance.


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## Butters (Nov 15, 2009)

Okey-Dokey...

Just for the record, I am not Sinsimillia Sam I Am trying to shove THC-laced green eggs and ham down your throat.

And here's a little something you can use for a motto when people ask about your views:

"When you are right, you have a moral duty to impose your will on others."

~ Tomas deTorquemada, Inquisitor-General of Spain

JL


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## pbfoot (Nov 15, 2009)

The last thing I'd do is hoist my views on anyone , but some of us have made choices and live with our choices . Would I want my kid toking thats a definate no, but nor do I want them to drink


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> VB here its an illegal substance. On this matter I honestly don't give a S*IT if you can put all the facts in the world. ITS illegal FOR A REASON only certain people use it for medical purposes for a REASON.
> 
> (Not directed at u VB just in general.)



So is speeding. The article you posted was in regards to OR making it legal to use it for medical reasons so in areas of the US it is legal (State vs Federal laws is a political one and thus will not be touched upon).

In any society, it scares me when any law rules regardless of the facts. There are reasons why some laws are overturned and others changed.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 15, 2009)

But I don't see why this is being overturned. Leave it illegal.


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## Amsel (Nov 15, 2009)

It's probably overturned because of the expense of locking up people who are under the influence or in the posession of marijuana. With the growing deficits in local and state governments due to the sharp decrease in taxpayers, the authorities may no longer want to prosecute it as a crime.


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 15, 2009)

Yea I agree with that. I could also see it being taxed like tabacco as well.


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## beaupower32 (Nov 15, 2009)

Yep, I see it being sold just like cigarettes in any store you walk into. Its a sad fact, but looks like it might come that way. But if it does, tax the hell out of it.


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## 109ROAMING (Nov 15, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> Why would you *Smoke* if your already sick.





B-17engineer said:


> But it you are already very very ill, why waste your few days or months smoking. Smoking in itself is bad without the marijuana.



Because just like Brompton Cocktail's , your going to die anyway why not live it less painfully? Your saying dope is bad right and causes bad things down the road? what if you had no more road and it was a bad one and dope could stop that bad feeling atleast til the end? no bad effects then?

It does not always mean smoking it Harrison , I watched a doco once where a guy ( I think in Canada) turned dope into a series of cookies and argued "Wouldn't you rather eat a cookie than eat a couple pills?" 

Good post too Maria


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## Maestro (Nov 15, 2009)

Oh, yeah... The good old pot muffin trick.

A guy I know was once offered a pot muffin (without knowing the presence of the "special ingredient")... He spent the whole afternoon laughing for no reason.

Oh, and B-17, FYI most musicians are/were on drugs. That old Ludwig von Bethoven was an alcholic... He died from lead poisoning (because the special brand of wine he was drinking was using lead salt as a spice). And do you think that the Beetles would have wrote "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds" if they were not high on drugs ?

Also, I remember in my religion classes that none of those who wrote the bible had the same version of Jesus' life... I personally believe that it was because they were all high on pot. But I could be wrong on this...


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## GrauGeist (Nov 16, 2009)

And just for the record, Marijuana wasn't illegal until 1937 and there was mainly issues against it for tax purposes. So technically speaking, if the law was passed against it, it can be repealed. And there was a temporary modification to the law during WWII because of the importance of Hemp for the war effort.

If a person (an adult) makes a decision, then it's thier responsability to know the pros and cons of what they are doing, and assume all responsability for thier actions. I enjoy a beer every so often, but I don't drink as a means of escape. When I do get hammered, which is once in a blue-moon these days, I'm going to be the last person to even consider driving a car. So you can say that overall, I drink in moderation.

That's the key to anything. Do it in moderation. If a person chooses to unwind with a joint, good for them...but if a person does that in excess (smoking it constantly), then like most things, it will mess them up.

An occasional beer is considered healthy, same with a glass of wine, but you do it constantly, you will ruin your health and your life...again, moderation is the key.

Same goes for diet sodas or anything a person becomes addicted to. Too much of anything can be detrimental to your health.


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## BikerBabe (Nov 16, 2009)

I agree with GG.
Me 3 years ago: 2-4 litres of cola a day, bad stomach (- diagnosed irritable colon) and I had to eat pills to keep my stomach calm and be able to go to work without my stomach flipping out - or even just be able to _get _to work without any incidents.
I love cola (Harboe - a cheap danish copy of Coca Cola), but I decided to call it quits last year.
3 days later I could ditch the pills and I haven't had any stomach problems ever since.
Oh, and to top it off, I even lost 3-4 kilos in 4 months because I stopped drinking cola. 
*So yes - moderation's the word of the day. *


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 16, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> All I am saying is that its my opinion. No matter how many facts you have I am not changing my mind.



Yeah but everyone keeps shooting down your facts...

It is your right to think what you do, but don't use false facts. Just because someone smoked pot, does not mean they wasted their life, or are doing so. That is the part where you are annoying me. You are taking it so damn personal.

Just because some one chooses to do so for recreational or medicinal purposes does not make them dumb and stupid! Period!


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## Marcel (Nov 16, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> Now what exactly is your argument then? If you tell me I am supporting argument then you are going with what I say? Where do you get slaves from? Slaves are inhumane and that's why they are illegal not because they made too much money. That is a completely different thing that is not to be brought into the conversation.
> 
> If you wanna smoke your cam pot stay inside and don't go around promoting it and saying smoke pot! Smoke Pot! Because that is how young kids are loosing futures. There are some people who go around promoting you.
> 
> ...



The argument was that if alcohol was illegal we should get all this crime stuff. Then you say drugs must not be legal and this illiagl drugs is the reason that we have that same crime. 

BTW I already said drugs use in the Netherlands is lower than in other countries, while it's legal here. Sure must be a reason to promote legalising soft-drugs. I absolutely don't agree with Piet here that the dutch policy is dumb, I would say it was a smart move.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 16, 2009)

And I still don't care. Like I said, if they want to make it legal go right ahead!!!!!! But you stay in your dam house till the effects wear off and don't come out publicizing, promoting, or offering it to other people.....


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## B-17engineer (Nov 16, 2009)

"Introduction to "Bad effects of pot"

The latest studies on so called "bad effects of pot" including short and long time ones proved that most of many of the "reefer madness" tales were simple lies. Although these studies did not answer all remaining questions about marijuana toxicity, they generally supported the idea that marijuana was a relatively safe drug - not totally free from potential harm, but unlikely to create serious harm for most individual users or society. An analysis of research studies with long-term, recreational users of marijuana has failed to reveal a substantial, systematic effect on the neurocognitive functioning of users. According to researchers at the University of California, San Diego (UCSD) School of Medicine, the only deleterious side effect found was a minimal malfunction in the domains of learning and forgetting. So however stong the effects may be during the experience, keep in mind, it won't cripple You. Now for the sake of truth, read ...

Short time bad effects of pot

Here are short time effects of pot, meaning during a few hours after use. The short-term effects occur rapidly after a single dose and disappear within a few hours. Most of them can be fun if You are in safe place with good people to laugh with. Most of those bad effects can be very dangerous if the place and situation demands capabilites You have just weakend by pot use and/or the people around You are not friendly. General advice is to plan ahead, prepare the right time, place and people. Good plan will help You relax, enjoy the experience and avoid bad effects of pot, which in my humble opinion are exagerrated. But always use pot with caution, if You are not experienced don't smoke too much at the first time.

- bad short time memory and lowered learning abilities.
Example: difficulty to stay on topic, because of forgetting what was the subject and what was said a moment ago.
Comment: Some potheads like me say it is a part of fun. Sure it is when You are among friends in a safe place. But not when You have to talk to Your mother or the policeman.

- difficulty thinking and problem solving.
Example: Don't use pot before the exam or driving lesson. These tasks need quick thinking and You are likely to fail or even put Yourself in danger. Remember to take it easy after using pot. No duties, no difficulties. Plan a enjoyable experience for Yourself.

- poor performance, loss of coordination and risk of injury.
Example: This is serious ! Don't sharpen knifes, Don't go climbing ! Go walking, looking, smelling, touching 

- inability to drive safely or do complex tasks for up to 24 hours after use.
Example: Selfexplanatory. Daydreaming behind the wheel can be dangerous not only to Yourself, but everybody with You.

- distorted senses of sight, hearing, touch, time, and depth.
Example: Just keep in mind not to trust Your senses in 100%. Not sure You can cross the street ? Check again !

- reduced athletic ability.
Example: Don't go wood choping or running. Work in the garden if You like ...

- elevated heart rate.
Example: If You find Your heart pounding too strong just relax.

- anxiety, panic attacks.
Example: Not likely, but just in case, or if You are nervous person, or just got scared, use Your pot in a safe place with relaxed helpfull people to help You calm down. And most of all for all of You panickers, if You happen to smoke too much, and start feeling bad in any way, remember to lay down or sit down and relax and I assure You will feel better in a few hours.

"Long time bad effect of pot

There is some evidence from human studies that long-term pot use can have bad effects, although it seems that the spectrum of these effects is narrower than previously thought and mainly centres around cognitive (intellectual) function. These effects disappear gradually after pot use stops. Long-term effects occur after repeated use over a period of time. Like smoking a few joints a week for 10 years.

Study published in a Canadian medical journal (CMAJ 2002 Apr 2;166(7):887-91) found that: Current marijuana use had a negative effect on global IQ score only in subjects who smoked 5 or more joints per week. A negative effect was not observed among subjects who had previously been heavy users but were no longer using the substance. We conclude that marijuana does not have a long-term negative impact on global intelligence. This study compared IQ scores of individuals aged 9-12 years before they started using cannabis, with their scores at 17-20 years. Light users, former users and non-users showed a gain in IQ over the same period. "I suppose we expected to see some differences in people who were heavy users, but in fact the differences were very minimal." Still, researchers say impairments were less than what is typically found from using alcohol or other drugs.

- because the tar content of THC smoke is 50 percent higher than that of tobacco, many users have chronic bronchitis and other respiratory problems. That can be avoided by using vapouriser instead of smoking pot.
- some chronic heavy users(especially young ones less than 16 years old) may show loss of drive and energy, slow and confused thinking, impaired memory and apathy. This is often referred to as "amotivational syndrome," and disappears gradually after drug use stops.
- there is no conclusive study, but it is advised not to use pot during pregnacy. Possible cause of lower birth weight and slower brain cognitive functions development.
- psychological addiction is possible and happens among heavy users.

Dutch Marijuana Use Lower Than Previously Thought: New Study Shatters American Myth That Relaxed Dutch Marijuana Laws Cause Increased Marijuana Use Despite Decriminalization, Dutch Use Less Marijuana Than Americans - AMSTERDAM, The Netherlands - April 17 /PRNewswire/ --

A new study with sweeping implications for marijuana policy in the United States and abroad has found the number of marijuana users in the Netherlands to be substantially lower than previously estimated. According to a study released this week by the Centre for Drug Research (CEDRO) at the University of Amsterdam, only about 2 to 3 percent of the Dutch population (ages 12 years old and up) had used marijuana in the previous month. Earlier studies had put the rate at about 5.0 to 6.5 percent.

"Previous estimates were based on surveys in Amsterdam, which has a higher use rate than the rest of the country," said Peter Cohen, one of the authors of the study. "By including the cities of Tilberg and Utrecht in our survey, the results are more representative of the Dutch population as a whole."

These findings offer new insight into the relationship between marijuana use and marijuana policy. For the last twenty years, Dutch citizens over the age of 18 have been able to buy and use marijuana in government-regulated coffee shops. In the United States, where it is illegal under federal law to grow, purchase or use marijuana, U.S. government studies have found Americans use marijuana more often than the Dutch. According to a 1996 U.S. government study, between 4.2 and 5.3 percent of the U.S. population (ages 12 years old and up) had used marijuana in the past month. Despite fundamentally different marijuana policies, the Dutch use less marijuana than Americans.

"This study is further evidence that Dutch marijuana policy has not resulted in an explosion of marijuana use," said Dr. John P. Morgan, co-author of the book Marijuana Myths, Marijuana Facts: A Review of the Scientific Evidence (The Lindesmith Center, $12.95 U.S., paperback).

"Despite an overly punitive policy toward marijuana in the U.S., Americans still use more marijuana." Marijuana Myths, Marijuana Facts co-author Lynn Zimmer asks, "If the Dutch are using less marijuana, what purpose was served by arresting 642,000 Americans for possessing marijuana last year?" "


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## B-17engineer (Nov 16, 2009)

Any intoxicating substance is hazardous to one degree or another

"What is marijuana?
Marijuana (grass, pot, weed) is the common name for a crude drug made from the plant Cannabis sativa. The main mind-altering (psychoactive) ingredient in marijuana is THC (delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol), but more than 400 other chemicals also are in the plant. A marijuana "joint" (cigarette) is made from the dried particles of the plant. The amount of THC in the marijuana determines how strong its effects will be. The type of plant, the weather, the soil, the time of harvest, and other factors determine the strength of marijuana. The strength of today's marijuana is as much as ten times greater than the marijuana used in the early 1970s. This more potent marijuana increases physical and mental effects and the possibility of health problems for the user. Hashish, or hash, is made by taking the resin from the leaves and flowers of the marijuana plant and pressing it into cakes or slabs. Hash is usually stronger than crude marijuana and may contain five to ten times as much THC. Pure THC is almost never available, except for research. Substances sold as THC on the street often turn out to be something else, such as PCP.

What are some of the immediate effects of smoking marijuana?
Some immediate physical effects of marijuana include a faster heartbeat and pulse rate, bloodshot eyes, and a dry mouth and throat. No scientific evidence indicates that marijuana improves hearing, eyesight, and skin sensitivity. Studies of marijuana's mental effects show that the drug can impair or reduce short-term memory, alter sense of time, and reduce ability to do things which require concentration, swift reactions, and coordination, such as driving a car or operating machinery.

Are there any other adverse reactions to marijuana?
A common bad reaction to marijuana is the "acute panic anxiety reaction." People describe this reaction as an extreme fear of "losing control," which causes panic. The symptoms usually disappear in a few hours.

What about psychological dependence on marijuana?
Long-term regular users of marijuana may become psychologically dependent. They may have a hard time limiting their use, they may need more of the drug to get the same effect, and they may develop problems with their jobs and personal relationships. The drug can become the most important aspect of their lives.

What are the dangers for young people?
One major concern about marijuana is its possible effects on young people as they grow up. Research shows that the earlier people start using drugs, the more likely they are to go on to experiment with other drugs. In addition, when young people start using marijuana regularly, they often lose interest and are not motivated to do their schoolwork. The effects of marijuana can interfere with learning by impairing thinking, reading comprehension, and verbal and mathematical skills. Research shows that students do not remember what they have learned when they are "high".

How does marijuana affect driving ability?
Driving experiments show that marijuana affects a wide range of skills needed for safe driving -- thinking and reflexes are slowed, making it hard for drivers to respond to sudden, unexpected events. Also, a driver's ability to "track" (stay in lane) through curves, to brake quickly, and to maintain speed and the proper distance between cars is affected. Research shows that these skills are impaired for at least 4-6 hours after smoking a single marijuana cigarette, long after the "high" is gone. If a person drinks alcohol, along with using marijuana, the risk of an accident greatly increases. Marijuana presents a definite danger on the road.

Does marijuana affect the human reproductive system?
Some research studies suggest that the use of marijuana during pregnancy may result in premature babies and in low birth weights. Studies of men and women may have a temporary loss of fertility. These findings suggest that marijuana may be especially harmful during adolescence, a period of rapid physical and sexual development.

How does marijuana affect the heart?
Marijuana use increases the heart rate as much as 50 percent, depending on the amount of THC. It can cause chest pain in people who have a poor blood supply to the heart - and it produces these effects more rapidly than tobacco smoke does.

How does marijuana affect the lungs?
Scientists believe that marijuana can be especially harmful to the lungs because users often inhale the unfiltered smoke deeply and hold it in their lungs as long as possible. Therefore, the smoke is in contact with lung tissues for long periods of time, which irritates the lungs and damages the way they work. Marijuana smoke contains some of the same ingredients in tobacco smoke that can cause emphysema and cancer. In addition, many marijuana users also smoke cigarettes; the combined effects of smoking these two substances creates an increased health risk.

Can marijuana cause cancer?
Marijuana smoke has been found to contain more cancer-causing agents than is found in tobacco smoke. Examination of human lung tissue that had been exposed to marijuana smoke over a long period of time in a laboratory showed cellular changes called metaplasia that are considered precancerous. In laboratory test, the tars from marijuana smoke have produced tumors when applied to animal skin. These studies suggest that it is likely that marijuana may cause cancer if used for a number of years.

How are people usually introduced to marijuana?
Many young people are introduced to marijuana by their peers - usually acquaintances, friends, sisters, and brothers. People often try drugs such as marijuana because they feel pressured by peers to be part of the group. Children must be taught how to say no to peer pressure to try drugs. Parents can get involved by becoming informed about marijuana and by talking to their children about drug use.

What is marijuana "burnout"?
"Burnout" is a term first used by marijuana smokers themselves to describe the effect of prolonged use. Young people who smoke marijuana heavily over long periods of time can become dull, slow moving, and inattentive. These "burned-out" users are sometimes so unaware of their surroundings that they do not respond when friends speak to them, and they do not realize they have a problem.

How long do chemicals from marijuana stay in the body after the drug is smoked?
When marijuana is smoked, THC, its active ingredient, is absorbed by most tissues and organs in the body; however, it is primarily found in fat tissues. The body, in its attempt to rid itself of the foreign chemical, chemically transforms the THC into metabolites. Urine tests can detect THC metabolites for up to a week after people have smoked marijuana. Tests involving radioactively labeled THC have traced these metabolites in animals for up to a month. "


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## B-17engineer (Nov 16, 2009)

Fact Sheet - MARIJUANA
Bad effects of pot - short time - long time - how long does pot stay in your system

"Lung Cancer: Yes, smoking marijuana may cause lung cancer. Is that supposed to be shocking? After all, you're breathing fire. On the other hand, eating some pot-brownies might make you fat, but certainly won't tar-up your lungs."


You wanted facts. There they are. Read them because I read yours. 

So what is this? Marijuana is bad. It may not be the worst but it *STILL*retains the name illegal SUBSTANCE.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 16, 2009)

Stop ur trumpet blaring Harrison... U sound like the fu*kin Gestapo.....

Alcohol is BY FAR the worst of both evils... Period.... End of story.......


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## B-17engineer (Nov 16, 2009)

Why? So I can other can go on there rants but I can't?

I never said alcohol was a billion times better! I never did. I am saying I don't want marijuana legalized. People tell me I don't have the facts well there they are. And I'm sure anyone on this site can find another way to tell me there wrong.


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## Maestro (Nov 16, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> Stop ur trumpet blaring Harrison... U sound like the fu*kin Gestapo.....
> 
> Alcohol is BY FAR the worst of both evils... Period.... End of story.......



Agreed.

But I still wouldn't like to sit in a car driven by someone high on pot.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 16, 2009)

And as far as Im concerned, all that crap u posted up above about how it distorts u and this and that:

Bullsh!t....

It may alter u in several different ways, as does alcohol... All that crap u posted up above is straight up propoganda from non-smokers....


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## lesofprimus (Nov 16, 2009)

Thats just plain retarded Maestro.....


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## B-17engineer (Nov 16, 2009)

Ok Dan your right. I should apologize because I'd like to do the right thing when I'm older and not get in to drugs. I'm sorry I'll go smoke pot and maybe drink afterwards. 

Is that what you want to hear. I could say what you guys said was BS and propaganda from pot smokers too.


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## Lucky13 (Nov 16, 2009)

How many drugs are we taking each day without thinking about it? Think about all those energy drink floating around on the market, aren't they in one way "drugs", since some people get addicted to them. How many drivers are using "speed" to get through a long hard drive, to stay awake, when they found out that coffee isn't longer working?


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## B-17engineer (Nov 16, 2009)

But in energy drinks it isn't illegal. I'm done with this thread. Tear me apart all you want I still believe what I want.


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## beaupower32 (Nov 16, 2009)

Harrison, we are just haveing a good debate with you. We are not trying to change your views on it. I'm glad that you are against it, and we need more people like you. There are going to be times in your life where no one will agree with you, it happens. Your young enough that you really havent experienced a good debate like this where hardly anyone agrees with you. It happens. In the end, just enjoy the conversation. Yeah, things get heated, but thats the fun part of it. The big thing is never take it personally. Just smile and carry on!


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## Amsel (Nov 16, 2009)

I agree. I am very pleased that you were standing up against the scourge of drugs, even if they are popular with others.


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## pbfoot (Nov 16, 2009)

I think with the upcoming US Thanksgiving everyone should spark one up as every Jamestown resident was required to plant hemp as a crop

Why is pot illegal 

In 1930, a new division in the Treasury Department was established — the Federal Bureau of Narcotics — and Harry J. Anslinger was named director. This, if anything, marked the beginning of the all-out war against marijuana.


Harry J. Anslinger

Anslinger was an extremely ambitious man, and he recognized the Bureau of Narcotics as an amazing career opportunity — a new government agency with the opportunity to define both the problem and the solution. He immediately realized that opiates and cocaine wouldn’t be enough to help build his agency, so he latched on to marijuana and started to work on making it illegal at the federal level.

Anslinger immediately drew upon the themes of racism and violence to draw national attention to the problem he wanted to create. He also promoted and frequently read from “Gore Files” — wild reefer-madness-style exploitation tales of ax murderers on marijuana and sex and… Negroes. Here are some quotes that have been widely attributed to Anslinger and his Gore Files:

“There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos, and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz, and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and any others.”

“…the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races.” 

“Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death.” 

“Reefer makes darkies think they’re as good as white men.” 

“Marihuana leads to pacifism and communist brainwashing” 

“You smoke a joint and you’re likely to kill your brother.” 

“Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind


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## Marcel (Nov 16, 2009)

Harrison, this is a good discussion, not an attack on you. But it's something that should be discussed in public. I quote from your text as it supports my point:


> "Despite an overly punitive policy toward marijuana in the U.S., Americans still use more marijuana." Marijuana Myths, Marijuana Facts co-author Lynn Zimmer asks, "If the Dutch are using less marijuana, what purpose was served by arresting 642,000 Americans for possessing marijuana last year?" "



BTW I never used pot and I never will.


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## Lucky13 (Nov 16, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> But in energy drinks it isn't illegal. I'm done with this thread. Tear me apart all you want I still believe what I want.



That's a shame Harrison! Don't take it personally, please! We're not trying to tear you apart more than slightly disagree with you...  
That's good, stand firm to your beliefs and opinions, you'll need it when you grow older like some of the ancient gurus here on the forum!  You'll more often than not meet someone that'll rub you the wrong way and you'll have a heated discussion, where a lot of hard words might be exchanged etc.
Even if we here might swap a few well chosen words occasionally between each other, I'd like to think that we respect each other, when it comes to beliefs, opinions and many other things, although sometimes the "Police" might have to show up here and wave their stick for things to calm down, in the middle of a argument...
Finally, I think that I can speak for everyone here when I say that we respected you when you joined here, and I think that you've earned even more respect for standing firm to what you think is right and not go down for one or another reason, cudos to you Harrison, don't change that!

You have a bright head on those young sholders, your dad can be proud!


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## Amsel (Nov 16, 2009)

> Overview
> Marijuana, also referred to as weed, pot and grass, is an illegal substance made from the Cannabis sativa plant. Tetrahydrocannibol (THC) is the main psychoactive ingredient in marijuana that provides a high or euphoric feeling. The amount of THC in the drug determines the level of the high, as well as its harmful effects. Physical and mental side effects are increased by more potent plants, which are determined by the type of plant, weather, soil and time of harvest.
> 
> Immediate Effects
> ...


Marijuana's Harmful Effects On The Mouth | LIVESTRONG.COM



> THC acts upon specific sites in the brain, called cannabinoid receptors, kicking off a series of cellular reactions that ultimately lead to the “high” that users experience when they smoke marijuana. Some brain areas have many cannabinoid receptors; others have few or none. The highest density of cannabinoid receptors are found in parts of the brain that influence pleasure, memory, thoughts, concentration, sensory and time perception, and coordinated movement.1
> 
> Not surprisingly, marijuana intoxication can cause distorted perceptions, impaired coordination, difficulty in thinking and problem solving, and problems with learning and memory. Research has shown that marijuana’s adverse impact on learning and memory can last for days or weeks after the acute effects of the drug wear off. * As a result, someone who smokes marijuana every day may be functioning at a suboptimal intellectual level all of the time.*
> 
> ...



Marijuana - InfoFacts - NIDA


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## Marcel (Nov 16, 2009)

Not to make it a political thread, but I just noticed something which I found extremely funny:

Many US people, defending as less influence of the government as possible (guns law etc) claiming they could very well decide for themselves are now in favour of the government regulating the use of pot, while the Europeans, being all for regulations by the government (including me) are now more or less claiming people should decide for themselves whether to use pot and the government should stay out of it. Some funny form of hypocrisy from both sides


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## Lucky13 (Nov 16, 2009)




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## Amsel (Nov 16, 2009)

Amsel said:


> *I don't care if it is legal or not. To each his own.* In my opinion, there should be severe penalties for supplying anyone under 21 with weed. Of all my aquaintences from high school, there is a marked difference in the lives of those that smoked weed heavily during adolescence and those that maybe smoked occasionally or not at all. It may seem harmless to adults but for teenagers the effects on the brain are harmful.
> 
> If marijuana is to be legalized then there should be a law implemented that somehow only legalizes American weed. A way to make it cheaper then weed smuggled in through Mexico. The skyrocketing violence in Mexico over the drug trade is alarming and will soon become a huge national security issue especially in the Southwest.



Are you refering to this post Marcel. I just can't agree that marijuana use is not harmful or is even good for you. 

But if the government legalizes marijuana, it should also stay out of the business of telling private companies that they have to hire those that use weed. I don't want to see any lawsuits that state companies are discriminating against pot smokers.

As far as regulating the import of marijuana from our southern neighbors; one very proper role of the government is to protect our border areas from foreign violence and influence. National security is one of the few proper roles of a centralized government.


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## Amsel (Nov 16, 2009)

I would even go as far to say that the govenments war on drugs has actually caused much more harm then any good. Most people will not abuse drugs even if they are legal and plentiful. In a free society people should be able to igest whatever they want. As long as they follow the laws of the land. Drug use is a personal choice and those that consume drugs should be responsible for their own actions and choices. We all know that drugs have harmful side effects so the more intelligent will continue to live healthy.

Legalizing drugs and regulating the border better would have a huge impact on the soaring violence in Mexico. It would take the black market out of the hands of the violent crime organizations and force the hundreds of thousands of criminals that are involved in the trade because of the lucrative amount of cash out of business.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 16, 2009)

B-17engineer said:


> Why? So I can other can go on there rants but I can't?
> 
> I never said alcohol was a billion times better! I never did. I am saying I don't want marijuana legalized. People tell me I don't have the facts well there they are. And I'm sure anyone on this site can find another way to tell me there wrong.



Then for the same reasons you do not want marijuana legalized, you should be wanting tobacco and alcohol to be made illegal. You keep siting health risks, well the other two are far worse when it comes to health risks.

Don't let me catch you drinking a beer when you get older! 



B-17engineer said:


> Ok Dan your right. I should apologize because I'd like to do the right thing when I'm older and not get in to drugs.



That is a good attitude to have. No one is denying that.




B-17engineer said:


> I'm sorry I'll go smoke pot and maybe drink afterwards.
> 
> Is that what you want to hear. I could say what you guys said was BS and propaganda from pot smokers too.



Now you are just being dumb, sorry but no one has ever said that.


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## Marcel (Nov 16, 2009)

Amsel said:


> Are you refering to this post Marcel. I just can't agree that marijuana use is not harmful or is even good for you.
> 
> But if the government legalizes marijuana, it should also stay out of the business of telling private companies that they have to hire those that use weed. I don't want to see any lawsuits that state companies are discriminating against pot smokers.
> 
> As far as regulating the import of marijuana from our southern neighbors; one very proper role of the government is to protect our border areas from foreign violence and influence. National security is one of the few proper roles of a centralized government.


Well I was actually referring to the whole discussion. I actually agree with you Amsel. Smoking weed is harmful. I only favour the legalisation because of the facts that I pointed out and actually you did as well.


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## B-17engineer (Nov 16, 2009)

OK. Thanks


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## lesofprimus (Nov 16, 2009)

Alright, so the big questions are:

Which is more harmful to your own body, drinking a case of beer a week or 4 joints???

Which is more harmful to u on the road, someone who drank a six pack or someone who smoked a joint???

Whose more prone to carjacking u at midnight, the dude who just drank a six pack or the stoner who just blew a fat bowl???

To be honest, I dont give a rats ass if it illegal or not....


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## timshatz (Nov 16, 2009)

Marcel said:


> Not to make it a political thread, but I just noticed something which I found extremely funny:
> 
> Many US people, defending as less influence of the government as possible (guns law etc) claiming they could very well decide for themselves are now in favour of the government regulating the use of pot, while the Europeans, being all for regulations by the government (including me) are now more or less claiming people should decide for themselves whether to use pot and the government should stay out of it. Some funny form of hypocrisy from both sides



Europe: Pot is legal, guns are pretty much illegal.
America: Guns are legal, pot is pretty much illegal. 

Glad we got the cleared up


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 16, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> To be honest, I dont give a rats ass if it illegal or not....



Agreed, same here. I don't smoke it. I am just playing devils advocate here.


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## Torch (Nov 17, 2009)

Been reading this thread with interest, I'm still debating about the use of MaryJ for medicanal purposes, I think if it's controlled it could be useful for those who are in pain. I'll be a hypocrit and say yes I have my coctails when I'm home and at other functions and don't think alcohol should be illegal. But I have to say that growing up in a middle class area in Queens New York where kids had access to cash there was a steady business of MaryJ. I would say from 7th grade on when my friends and I started smoking there would eventually be a very obvious,visible downturn in school performance and athletic performance. I would say there was about 30 of us,close friends whom finally broke up into 2 groups, the Heads and the Jocks, I split with the jocks. This is just personal observation and experience. I know MaryJ is not supposed to be addicting but the majority of the Heads went on to try other drugs that which sadly to say led to 7 or 8 funerals which were sad to attend, especially when one of your friends is lying dead in Church and your other friends are blowing coke in the bathroom. Some of the Heads were carrying A averages and ended up by barely making it out of high school. As for the Jocks especially me, I got turned off by what I was seeing happening to my friends and made a decision that drugs were not for me. Plus there's enough idiots driving around drunk that to add stoners to the list would just increase the risk of something happening. The people who take booze and drugs to the extreme will always cause a problem for the rest of society. As for B17, your still young and you will go thru many more experiences in your life, just try to take the correct path that will make you happy..


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## Lucky13 (Nov 17, 2009)

So sex, drugs and rock n' roll is out of the question then?


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## Torch (Nov 17, 2009)

Oh please you know I couldn't give up sex and rock n roll


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 17, 2009)

Lucky13 said:


> So sex, drugs and rock n' roll is out of the question then?



Cripes, there is only so many books one can read!


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## Clay_Allison (Nov 17, 2009)

pbfoot said:


> Whats a matter with pot , I think its much safer then legal alcohol


I agree, though I drink and never will smoke pot. As a whole, weed is a lesser social ill.


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## Maestro (Nov 18, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> Thats just plain retarded Maestro.....



Why is it retarded ? Because I don't wanna risk my life by sitting in a car driven by a pothead as well as a car driven by a drunkard ?

Legal or not, pot is as dangerous as alcohol... I don't know what is retarded in that. Please, enlighten me...

I was only posting that message as a jab to an other member who said that driving stoned was less dangerous than driving drunk... So please, tell me what is retarded in my last post...


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## lesofprimus (Nov 18, 2009)

Chances are uve already been driven around by someone stoned and didnt even know it.... All that crap about impared driving is horseshit... Ive driven around stoned outta my gourd before and still drove better than 77% of the women on the road....

And this was before cell phones............

Drunk driving is 80 times more dangerous to others around u than someone whose stoned man....

Pot is as dangerous as alcohol??? Come on Brother...


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## Torch (Nov 18, 2009)

Ok then, lets legalize pot and ban 77% of women drivers. There that settles this discussion.


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## beaupower32 (Nov 18, 2009)

Just ban all women drivers. Since we are banning stuff, lets go with cell phones too.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 18, 2009)

Torch said:


> Ok then, lets legalize pot and ban 77% of women drivers. There that settles this discussion.


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## Lucky13 (Nov 18, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> Chances are uve already been driven around by someone stoned and didnt even know it.... All that crap about impared driving is horseshit... Ive driven around stoned outta my gourd before and still drove better than 77% of the women on the road....
> 
> And this was before cell phones............
> 
> ...





Torch said:


> Ok then, lets legalize pot and ban 77% of women drivers. There that settles this discussion.



LMFAO! 



beaupower32 said:


> Just ban all women drivers. Since we are banning stuff, lets go with cell phones too.



That's alright with me, as long as you don't touch mobile phones!


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## Erich (Nov 18, 2009)

and since I am drunk with ambition I am banning all your A**'s, geez guys 12 pages of this stuff.

lets get back to the topic header, Portland the largest city in my state is not smoke free like they think they are ............

they can keep it up there but in truth it's worse down here, no wonder the fog is so thick this time of year.

with all due respect ..... E ~


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## Lucky13 (Nov 18, 2009)

That's because we're all stoned out our nuts Erich.... 

Since we're at it, let's ban Political Correctness.....

Puff....puff....puff....aaaaah...that hit the right spot I think!


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## Erich (Nov 18, 2009)

better yet how about banning government ...........period !


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## Lucky13 (Nov 18, 2009)

Can't argue with you there Erich!


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## beaupower32 (Nov 18, 2009)

Agree! Just bann everything!


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 18, 2009)

I'll drink to that!!


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## Butters (Nov 18, 2009)

beaupower32 said:


> Agree! Just bann everything!



Right on! And just so we get off on the right foot, let's start with banning 'banning'. IOW, you're still allowed to ban what ever you don't like FOR YOURSELF, but no one is allowed to ban anything for anyone else.

I'm not real big on banning stuff, but there are a few extremely evil things that I very strongly object to on personal moral grounds. So I'm gonna ban the livin' hell out'a all the nasty things in this list:

1: Dying - It just plain sucks. And also becuz' if you ain't interested in spending all eternity figuring out the chords on that fricken' harp, or mastering the fine art of synchronized screaming in a lake of fire, it's no one's damn business but your own.
2: Aging - I ask you, what is really the point of slowly shuffling around the nursing home looking for the keys to the car you forgot you don't own anymore, and that you would'n't be able to find anyway, becuz you can't see for sch!t....?
3: Impotence - Who the hell needs that tedious crap? Except maybe pedophiles and rapists -and they're not gonna matter anyway, cuz all the kids and women will just ban them in their own personal lists.
4: Being broke - Duh... Wht's the point of living forever all buff and randy if you can't even afford to impress the chicks with your OTHER shiny new Lambo?
5: Nagging - 'Nuff said...
6: That lollygaggin' SOB of a comatose tortoise that always manages to get in front of me whenever I'm trying to get somewhere - If they ain't comfortable driving 60 mph over the limit, they can just stay the hell home and knit!
7: Speed limits - When you're coming up on 180 mph with that hot blonde's head stuck in your lap, the last thing you wanna see is those flashing red and blues in the mirror. It's just ain't the right kind of mood lighting...
8: Paternity suits and venereal disease... 

That's enough personal prohibitory legislation to start with, I guess.

JL


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## Maestro (Nov 19, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> Chances are uve already been driven around by someone stoned and didnt even know it.... All that crap about impared driving is horseshit... Ive driven around stoned outta my gourd before and still drove better than 77% of the women on the road....
> 
> And this was before cell phones............
> 
> ...



Did your wife read this post ? 

I think we could debate on that matter for a long time, but to answer your question, yes I've been driven by someone stoned... On my way to college. And man, did I notice it ! The worst ride of my life... almost hit the school's wall.

I also know several potheads from my high school days. I saw one of them again at work several years ago. When he left, he managed to stuck his car in the snow dump next to the parking lot (it was in January), thinking that it was his way out to the highway. I had to use the company's F-150 to pull him out of there.

I also often see some of them on the road, always exeeding the speed limit. (I.E. driving at 110km/h in a 70km/h zone.)

So as you can see, I have some good reasons to believe that driving high on pot should be considered as bad as drunk driving.


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