# Hi All.....



## billrunnels (Oct 28, 2017)

Being new to this Forum I have limited my posts, for the most part, to funny things that I experienced during my time in the Air Force and I will continue to do so. However, I am in no way attempting to avoid the combat side of the story so feel free to ask questions about bombing or mission related activity if you wish........Bill Runnels - B-17 Bombardier

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## pbehn (Oct 28, 2017)

Hi Bill, some questions.
Who did the nose art?
What sight do you remember best?
What did you hate most and best about flying?


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## Gnomey (Oct 28, 2017)

Welcome Bill!


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## billrunnels (Oct 28, 2017)

pbehn said:


> Hi Bill, some questions.
> Who did the nose art?
> What sight do you remember best?
> What did you hate most and best about flying?



The nose art was generally done by a talented member of the ground support team. Our squadron commander would allow only water base paint that could be removed after the shoot. Oil base paint was used earlier in the war.

If by sight you mean Base, I would choose Butler University because of the good chow.

The best part of flying was the great view I had from the nose (green house) of the B-17. The most challenging was the cold temperature at altitude and lengthy use of oxygen mask.

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## pbehn (Oct 28, 2017)

billrunnels said:


> The nose art was generally done by a talented member of the ground support team. Our squadron commander would allow only water base paint that could be removed after the shoot. Oil base paint was used earlier in the war.
> 
> If by sight you mean Base, I would choose Butler University because of the good chow.
> 
> The best part of flying was the great view I had from the nose (green house) of the B-17. The most challenging was the cold temperature at altitude and lengthy use of oxygen mask.


I meant what you enjoyed seeing the most or made the biggest impression on you. I have flown many times from Northern England skirting East Anglia to Amsterdam Hamburg and Hanover, my uncle was in Bomber Command in the RAF I often thought about him on those flights.

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## billrunnels (Oct 28, 2017)

pbehn said:


> I meant what you enjoyed seeing the most or made the biggest impression on you. I have flown many times from Northern England skirting East Anglia to Amsterdam Hamburg and Hanover, my uncle was in Bomber Command in the RAF I often thought about him on those flights.



The White Cliffs of Dover looked awfully good when returning from a mission.

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## Bad-Karma (Oct 30, 2017)

Welcome to the forum Bill! I am very happy to see you posting here. I can't stress how important it is for younger generations to hear what you have to say and learn first hand what your experiences were like during the war. My grandfather was a crew chief with the 34th BG and I could listen to his stories 24/7. Sadly he passed away when I was 13 so I couldn't fully appreciate all of his stories with the awareness I now have as an adult. What I would do just to hear one of his stories again. Reading your posts invoke a similar feeling and for that I am grateful. 

I have a question that I'm hoping you might be able to answer: My grandfather's discharge papers say he was discharged from the 96th BG 339th BS but all the information and pictures I have found clearly indicate he was with the 34th BG 4th BS. Any idea why his discharge papers might point to the 96th? Possible he was transferred to another unit right before discharge?


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## billrunnels (Oct 30, 2017)

Bad-Karma said:


> Welcome to the forum Bill! I am very happy to see you posting here. I can't stress how important it is for younger generations to hear what you have to say and learn first hand what your experiences were like during the war. My grandfather was a crew chief with the 34th BG and I could listen to his stories 24/7. Sadly he passed away when I was 13 so I couldn't fully appreciate all of his stories with the awareness I now have as an adult. What I would do just to hear one of his stories again. Reading your posts invoke a similar feeling and for that I am grateful.
> 
> I have a question that I'm hoping you might be able to answer: My grandfather's discharge papers say he was discharged from the 96th BG 339th BS but all the information and pictures I have found clearly indicate he was with the 34th BG 4th BS. Any idea why his discharge papers might point to the 96th? Possible he was transferred to another unit right before discharge?


My guess is he was transferred to the 34th BG. That happened to me. My time was with the 303rd BG, 360th BS until after the end of the war. _ Was transferred to the 358th BG, 548th BS and was on the first crew that brought a B-17 home. Never was told why the transfer but I have always thought my Squadron Bombardier did me a big favor._


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## ARTESH (Oct 30, 2017)

billrunnels said:


> Being new to this Forum I have limited my posts, for the most part, to funny things that I experienced during my time in the Air Force and I will continue to do so. However, I am in no way attempting to avoid the combat side of the story so feel free to ask questions about bombing or mission related activity if you wish........Bill Runnels - B-17 Bombardier


Greetings Sir.

Welcome to forum.

May i know what do you think of "Flying Computer" a. k. a. Tomcat ?


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## billrunnels (Oct 30, 2017)

ARTESH said:


> Greetings Sir.
> 
> Welcome to forum.
> 
> May i know what do you think of "Flying Computer" a. k. a. Tomcat ?


Sorry but I have no knowledge of the "Flying Computer".

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## Tim Moore (Nov 1, 2017)

Bill, 
I can think of many questions I would love to ask. One in particular has to do with the shift from each bombardier using his own bombsight to the later practice of dropping on the lead bombardier. Since you were there at the end of the war, was that the practice with your group? If so, how was that done? I know the Norden bombsight has an arming lever with a manual release, but to send an electrical signal, the indicators must touch. The only way I could see to use the Norden bombsight to manually drop bombs would be to rotate either the search knob or displacement knob until you got the indicators to meet. Just curious has to what it was really like to be the man out front.


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## billrunnels (Nov 1, 2017)

Bad-Karma said:


> Welcome to the forum Bill! I am very happy to see you posting here. I can't stress how important it is for younger generations to hear what you have to say and learn first hand what your experiences were like during the war. My grandfather was a crew chief with the 34th BG and I could listen to his stories 24/7. Sadly he passed away when I was 13 so I couldn't fully appreciate all of his stories with the awareness I now have as an adult. What I would do just to hear one of his stories again. Reading your posts invoke a similar feeling and for that I am grateful.
> 
> I have a question that I'm hoping you might be able to answer: My grandfather's discharge papers say he was discharged from the 96th BG 339th BS but all the information and pictures I have found clearly indicate he was with the 34th BG 4th BS. Any idea why his discharge papers might point to the 96th? Possible he was transferred to another unit right before discharge?





Tim Moore said:


> Bill,
> I can think of many questions I would love to ask. One in particular has to do with the shift from each bombardier using his own bombsight to the later practice of dropping on the lead bombardier. Since you were there at the end of the war, was that the practice with your group? If so, how was that done? I know the Norden bombsight has an arming lever with a manual release, but to send an electrical signal, the indicators must touch. The only way I could see to use the Norden bombsight to manually drop bombs would be to rotate either the search knob or displacement knob until you got the indicators to meet. Just curious has to what it was really like to be the man out front.






Tim Moore said:


> Bill,
> I can think of many questions I would love to ask. One in particular has to do with the shift from each bombardier using his own bombsight to the later practice of dropping on the lead bombardier. Since you were there at the end of the war, was that the practice with your group? If so, how was that done? I know the Norden bombsight has an arming lever with a manual release, but to send an electrical signal, the indicators must touch. The only way I could see to use the Norden bombsight to manually drop bombs would be to rotate either the search knob or displacement knob until you got the indicators to meet. Just curious has to what it was really like to be the man out front.



Hi Tim.....This gets a little complicated but I will give it my best shot. Our Squadron generally operated with a ten aircraft formation. Of the ten, three were designated Lead Crew status ( Lead, 1st Deputy Lead and 2nd Deputy Lead). The squadron drop was on the Lead unless he had a problem then the 1st Deputy Lead took over etc.

The bombs were released electrically in Train as follows: When the bombsight Indices met an electrical impulse was sent to the Intervalometer which in turn sent impulses to the bomb release unites in the order the bombs were set to leave the bombay, The release units activated the bomb shackels which in turn released the bombs. The Intervalometer setting controlled bomb spacing impact on the ground from 7 to 750 feet.

This is capsule report .Should you have more questions feel free to ask.

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## Zipper730 (Nov 2, 2017)

If you served in WWII you'd probably be like 90+ years old...

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## pbehn (Nov 2, 2017)

Zipper730 said:


> If you served in WWII you'd probably be like 90+ years old...


Hi Bill, meet Zipper he is our maths expert, no question too difficult.
Hi Zipper meet Bill who has already posted that he is 92. there is no question of "if".

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## billrunnels (Nov 2, 2017)

Zipper730 said:


> If you served in WWII you'd probably be like 90+ years old...



92 wonderful years. I should add and married to a beautiful gal for 70 years.

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## vikingBerserker (Nov 2, 2017)

I love talking to WW2 Vets!

What aircraft did you train on?


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## billrunnels (Nov 2, 2017)

vikingBerserker said:


> I love talking to WW2 Vets!
> 
> What aircraft did you train on?


While in the Cadet Program I had 10 hours in the J-3. In Bombardier School 100 hours in the AT-11. Then about 400 hours ( 110 hours combat) in the B-17

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## rochie (Nov 2, 2017)

Zipper730 said:


> If you served in WWII you'd probably be like 90+ years old...


A Tad rude Zipper


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## Zipper730 (Nov 2, 2017)

billrunnels said:


> Hi Tim.....This gets a little complicated but I will give it my best shot. Our Squadron generally operated with a ten aircraft formation. Of the ten, three were designated Lead Crew status ( Lead, 1st Deputy Lead and 2nd Deputy Lead). The squadron drop was on the Lead unless he had a problem then the 1st Deputy Lead took over etc.
> 
> The bombs were released electrically in Train as follows: When the bombsight Indices met an electrical impulse was sent to the Intervalometer which in turn sent impulses to the bomb release unites in the order the bombs were set to leave the bombay, The release units activated the bomb shackels which in turn released the bombs. The Intervalometer setting controlled bomb spacing impact on the ground from 7 to 750 feet


I actually had expressed a curiosity about the bomb spacing (it had to do with the minimum potential spacing for aircraft of higher speed -- i.e. would it even be possible for a supersonic plane releasing bombs to not produce a ten mile bomb train  )


billrunnels said:


> 92 wonderful years


Impressive, I knew a guy who was a radioman on B-26's (he went to the same gym I went to): He would become a lawyer after his time in the USAAF (I'm not sure exactly when) but he was practicing into his late 70's or early 80's.



pbehn said:


> Hi Bill, meet Zipper he is our maths expert, no question too difficult.
> Hi Zipper meet Bill who has already posted that he is 92. there is no question of "if".


I wouldn't consider myself a mathematics expert... I often do tend to pay attention to things that stand out.



rochie said:


> A Tad rude Zipper


I meant nothing negative: I actually was just surprised to see a WWII veteran on the forum. My grandparents raised me most of the time (mom & dad divorced, mom worked): I don't have a negative view towards the elderly -- in fact I think most people from the past had a greater sense of civic duty, and better attention to detail (the devil's always in the details  )


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## Greg Boeser (Nov 2, 2017)

The intervalometer had a minimum 1/20 second sequence. The circuits closed in order so the bombs above wouldn't fall before the ones below were released. (Usually)


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## pbehn (Nov 2, 2017)

Greg Boeser said:


> The intervalometer had a minimum 1/20 second sequence. The circuits closed in order so the bombs above wouldn't fall before the ones below were released. (Usually)


Even that minimum gives around 44 yards separation on a plane travelling at 180MPH. or 1/8 of a mile for a stick of 5 bombs.


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## Greg Boeser (Nov 2, 2017)

Well, I wouldn't want to be 22 yards between two exploding bombs, unless I was in some really hard cover.


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## pbehn (Nov 2, 2017)

Greg Boeser said:


> Well, I wouldn't want to be 22 yards between two exploding bombs, unless I was in some really hard cover.


The point I was making was that looking at a picture of the bombs leaving the aircraft it is hard to imagine they would land so far apart, all based on identiacal ballistics of course which is impossible.

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## billrunnels (Nov 2, 2017)

pbehn said:


> Even that minimum gives around 44 yards separation on a plane travelling at 180MPH. or 1/8 of a mile for a stick of 5 bombs.


Keep in mind the indicated air speed on the B-17 during the bomb run was 150 mph. The actual ground speed could be more or less depending on the wind and crab. the trajectory of the falling bomb varied with each type of bomb. The intervelometer settings included settings for train release and ground speed. The height of the target above sea level also effects the bomb trajectory because of the lower densities encountered. So many factors affected the actual bomb impact distance on the ground.

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## at6 (Nov 3, 2017)

rochie said:


> A Tad rude Zipper


Zipper may well still be a wee bit younger than most of us. I'm 67 and still get miffed at kids not knowing who Jimmy Doolittle, Douglas Bader,
Francis Gabreski, Gregory "Pappy" Boyington or so many of my other childhood heroes are or were. So I guess we should cut the wee one a little slack.

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## pbehn (Nov 3, 2017)

billrunnels said:


> Keep in mind the indicated air speed on the B-17 during the bomb run was 150 mph. The actual ground speed could be more or less depending on the wind and crab. the trajectory of the falling bomb varied with each type of bomb. The intervelometer settings included settings for train release and ground speed. The height of the target above sea level also effects the bomb trajectory because of the lower densities encountered. So many factors affected the actual bomb impact distance on the ground.


Thanks Bill but I was cheating, 180MPH may or may not be close to the bombing ground speed, it is exactly 3 miles minute though.

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## Zipper730 (Nov 4, 2017)

pbehn said:


> The point I was making was that looking at a picture of the bombs leaving the aircraft it is hard to imagine they would land so far apart, all based on identiacal ballistics of course which is impossible.


It has to do with the issue of distance covered versus time: If you're doing 150 mph, you're covering 220 feet per second, so if one bomb comes off a second after, even if it's ballistic arc was exactly the same, it left the plane one second after, so will land 220 feet further downrange.

Admittedly 150 mph indicated airspeed at 25000 feet is something like 230 mph, so it'd be more like 337 feet: If the intervalometer was set for 1/20th a second release it'd be a little under 17 feet between each bomb.



at6 said:


> Zipper may well still be a wee bit younger than most of us.


I'll be 34 in 13 days...


> I'm 67 and still get miffed at kids not knowing who Jimmy Doolittle, Douglas Bader, Francis Gabreski, Gregory "Pappy" Boyington or so many of my other childhood heroes are or were.


I'm surprised they wouldn't know who Doolittle was, I know who Gabreski and Boyington are... I'm not exactly proud of not knowing who Douglas Bader is -- though after doing some googling -- I know he was a WWII ace who was shot down in 1941 and was held at Colditz castle until the wars end.

I did know of an ace who lost his legs and flew with prosthetic and could hold higher g-loads ironically because of it: I did not know it was him (I usually tend to remember things like that)


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## at6 (Nov 4, 2017)

Bader lost both legs just before the war due to performing low level aerobatics in what if I remember the book correctly, was a Bristol Bulldog. The only other amputee that I know of would have Hans Ulrich Rudel having lost one leg in combat and still continued to fly JU-87s into combat.


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## at6 (Nov 4, 2017)

Hey Bill, I told you that he was probably a wee lad.

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## pbehn (Nov 4, 2017)

Bader had a movie made about his life during the war, Reach for the Sky. It was on every boxing day when I was very young.


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## at6 (Nov 4, 2017)

I never knew about the movie. I read the book a number of times as child. I have a copy of "God is My Copilot" that I still read sometimes.
That is why I'm enjoying Bill's snippets of information so much. Thank you Bill for the first hand accounts.

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## pbehn (Nov 4, 2017)

at6 said:


> I never knew about the movie. I read the book a number of times as child. I have a copy of "God is My Copilot" that I still read sometimes.
> That is why I'm enjoying Bill's snippets of information so much. Thank you Bill for the first hand accounts.


Bader had both legs amputated one above and the other below the knee. The movie was filmed in a deep rose tint, ignoring many of the controversies that surrounded Bader.


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## Lucky13 (Nov 4, 2017)

pbehn said:


> Bader had both legs amputated one above and the other below the knee. The movie was filmed in a deep rose tint, ignoring many of the controversies that surrounded Bader.



Aviations version of beer goggles?

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## fubar57 (Nov 4, 2017)

There is one more RAF fighter pilot that was a double leg amputee but I can't remember if I read it in a book or on line just recently. I really hope someone doesn't destroy this great thread. Back to you Bill

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## pbehn (Nov 4, 2017)

Lucky13 said:


> Aviations version of beer goggles?


I remember watching it as a starry eyed kid thinking everything on TV must be true. My father just remarked that "there were many people hated his guts" which confused me a lot. To me he was a man of his time, he isn't here to defend himself and there is no rule that says heroes have to be perfect in every way at all times.


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## pbehn (Nov 4, 2017)

fubar57 said:


> There is one more RAF fighter pilot that was a double leg amputee but I can't remember if I read it in a book or on line just recently. I really hope someone doesn't destroy this great thread. Back to you Bill


Flt Lt Colin Hodgkinson RIP
WW2 Spitfire pilot who had BOTH legs amputated | Daily Mail Online

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## fubar57 (Nov 4, 2017)

Thanks kindly, you saved me a ton of reading. If I post something I have to find the source and this would have consumed me


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## pbehn (Nov 4, 2017)

fubar57 said:


> Thanks kindly, you saved me a ton of reading. If I post something I have to find the source and this would have consumed me


Do you think I am an encyclopedia? Google is your friend, I just googled "RAF pilot amputee" and it is the third result.


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## fubar57 (Nov 5, 2017)

Sadly the internet in camp is sketchy at best, think dial-up but 10x worse. If a thread here or on another site has photos....forget it. I get booted from this site 3-5 time in half an hour and this is my 3rd attempt at writing this post. When I get home after a week in camp I have a minimum of 7 pages to catch up on from this site. Thanks again for the link, I'll read it when I get home


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## Lucky13 (Nov 5, 2017)

Camp Fubar?


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## Marcel (Nov 8, 2017)

billrunnels said:


> 92 wonderful years. I should add and married to a beautiful gal for 70 years.


That's a bacon for you dear sir.

Thank you for your presence here and answering questions. It's greatly appreciated.

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## vikingBerserker (Nov 8, 2017)

WOW, Hero x 2!


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## Tim Moore (Nov 16, 2017)

Bill,
You were there at the end of the aerial bombing campaign. Were you ever using radar bombing techniques/H2X? If so, what was that like?


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## billrunnels (Nov 16, 2017)

Tim Moore said:


> Bill,
> You were there at the end of the aerial bombing campaign. Were you ever using radar bombing techniques/H2X? If so, what was that like?


I did not use radar bombing techniques. I was assigned lead bombardier status and flew two second deputy lead missions and one first deputy. Had the war continued my next mission would most likely have been in the squadron lead position. Only the lead aircraft had the radar crew and equipment. Sorry I can't answer your question. However, being there in the winter months, the cloud coverage necessitated radar drops on most missions. Sixty percent on target was considered a good radar drop.

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## Zipper730 (Nov 17, 2017)

Marcel said:


> That's a bacon for you dear sir.


To Bill Runnells, it should be noted that the bacon icon (there's the two strips of bacon, the thumbs up and down, the check, the X, the smiley face, the green medal, the circle with an I in it, a heart, and several others on the lower right side of every post) is the highest ranking icon (Though I personally value the informative icon equally).


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 17, 2017)

Zipper730 said:


> If you served in WWII you'd probably be like 90+ years old...



Seriously?

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 17, 2017)

billrunnels said:


> 92 wonderful years. I should add and married to a beautiful gal for 70 years.



And thank you sir for being a part of our forum/family here, and sharing your stories.

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## Wurger (Nov 18, 2017)

With all above.

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## Marcel (Nov 18, 2017)

I do have some questions of a more personal nature. 
As a youngster of 42, it is hard for me to understand what it was like, being a young lad, flying to Nazi Germany in ww2. 
Long hours of flying at great hight, at freezing temperatures of minus 40 and no real comfort, I imagine. How did you personally experience that? Did you get used to it? Did the excitement wear of after some time?


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## billrunnels (Nov 18, 2017)

Marcel said:


> I do have some questions of a more personal nature.
> As a youngster of 42, it is hard for me to understand what it was like, being a young lad, flying to Nazi Germany in ww2.
> Long hours of flying at great hight, at freezing temperatures of minus 40 and no real comfort, I imagine. How did you personally experience that? Did you get used to it? Did the excitement wear of after some time?



It was anxiety that prevailed before and during the first mission to Dresden. That mission established a norm for those to follow so it became like going to work. We knew the evening before if we were scheduled to fly the next day so we had time to prepare. I listened to soft music and wrote V-mails to family and friends prior to falling asleep. Had no trouble sleeping. I think being young with no obligations back home made it easier to adjust etc.

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## ARTESH (Nov 19, 2017)

I hope Iranian Veterans were much Lucky !!!

Yet, speaking of them and their deeds,

is somehow "Profane" ...

The Regime wants to delete them from History !!!

no signs / words in Public ...

only a few handsome ones ...



> چنان نامور گم گشت از انجمن /// چو در باغ سرو، سهمی از چمن



Ferdowsi said this, 1000 yrs ago !!!


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## Zipper730 (Nov 19, 2017)

billrunnels said:


> It was anxiety that prevailed before and during the first mission to Dresden.


Was that October 1944, or February 1945?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 19, 2017)

billrunnels said:


> It was anxiety that prevailed before and during the first mission to Dresden. That mission established a norm for those to follow so it became like going to work. We knew the evening before if we were scheduled to fly the next day so we had time to prepare. I listened to soft music and wrote V-mails to family and friends prior to falling asleep. Had no trouble sleeping. I think being young with no obligations back home made it easier to adjust etc.



Obviously my war experiences are much different than yours, nor am I trying to equate mine to yours. Iraq was nothing like the war you experienced in WW2.

Your experiences here however sort of remind me of mine. I remember the night before my first flight into the combat zone, when the commander came in and informed the crews who were flying, my heart kind of dropped. The anxiety and fear that I felt was like none I had ever felt before. I had trouble sleeping that night. After several combat flights however, I sort of became "immune" to it. It became a normal part of my life, and I no longer felt that anxiety and had no problem sleeping either anymore.

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## Marcel (Nov 19, 2017)

Thanks Chris and Bill for sharing your experience. 

But Bill, what was it like for you, the hours of flying from the UK to Germany? What did you do during those hours?

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## pbehn (Nov 21, 2017)

Bill

I saw this today, an old mansion house used in WW2 as an R&R centre for US aircrew, not a bad gaff at all, the relevant text is below.

Coombe Park on the banks of the Thames for sale | Daily Mail Online


During the Second World War it was used as a rest and recuperation centre for the US Air Force under Charles' widow Lillian but the grand home was left in a poor state when they left and the main part of the house was demolished after the war because of the large capital cost of refurbishment.

US air crew were invited to the house, which changed its name to Pangbourne House, to rest during their 25-mission tour in Europe. 
Officials changed the name of the house because there was a similarly-named rest home in Dorset. 

The American Red Cross ran the operation which lasted until the end of the war.

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## Geedee (Jan 26, 2018)

Bill
Abject apologies for not welcoming you earlier and thank you for your Service. 
I am very lucky to be able to work as aircrew ...amongst other things...on a number of airworthy Warbirds including the Fortress, Liberator, Mitchell and Mustang, and you have my most deepest respect for what you took part in and survived. 
I have considerable first hand experience in all positions on these 'Girls over the past 5 years, but that's without being bounced around due to turbulence, flak, pilot induced escape maneuvers and with everyone outside trying to kill me for hours at a time, ignoring also the fact that I'm dried out and cold from being on Oxygen for most part of each Mission and partially deafened from all that's going on around.
I do raise a silent salute to all who went to work in these 'Planes each and every time I'm out on Tour !.
If there's anything of particular interest you would like photo's / videos of, please let me know and I will oblige. I'm back out on Tour during May on the West Coast so can get fresh stuff for you no problem.
Once again, thank you and welcome aboard Sir.

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## billrunnels (Jan 26, 2018)

Geedee said:


> Bill
> Abject apologies for not welcoming you earlier and thank you for your Service.
> I am very lucky to be able to work as aircrew ...amongst other things...on a number of airworthy Warbirds including the Fortress, Liberator, Mitchell and Mustang, and you have my most deepest respect for what you took part in and survived.
> I have considerable first hand experience in all positions on these 'Girls over the past 5 years, but that's without being bounced around due to turbulence, flak, pilot induced escape maneuvers and with everyone outside trying to kill me for hours at a time, ignoring also the fact that I'm dried out and cold from being on Oxygen for most part of each Mission and partially deafened from all that's going on around.
> ...


Gary
Thank you for the kind words of welcome.They are appreciated. I envy your crewing of some of the great 
WWII aircraft, especially the B-17 I had the pleasure of doing that when Bob Pond had his museum at Flying Cloud Airport here in the Twin Cities. It was great fun responding to questions etc. The B-17 ( Miss Angela ) was airworthy so we did take it to an air show or two. Wish it were possible to be active again. Good luck on the upcoming tour season. A picture or two wold be great.
Bill


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