# Crazy German Experimental Planes



## GermansRGeniuses (May 1, 2004)

here are a couple of pics from Luft46. please discuss this topic.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 1, 2004)

glad to see it's destrying a B-17................

Me and C.C. were on this site once where it had a plane that was designed to fall apart in midair!!!!!!!


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## plan_D (May 1, 2004)

From a lot of German designs you can see where American and Russian designs came from, I can't remember the name of the German aircraft but it replicates the early American VTOL projects almost exactly...still it was poor...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 1, 2004)

even though the garmans had alot of good ideas, i think even if they had materialized, i don't think we would be in much danger, they would have come to late to do much...............


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## cheddar cheese (May 1, 2004)

> Me and C.C. were on this site once where it had a plane that was designed to fall apart in midair!!!!!!!



no, i think that was a plane where in the event of a mid air collision the cockpit broke away and parachuted safely to the ground 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 2, 2004)

no, it was designed to ram planes with part of it, that part would also be destroyed, and then the pilot would glide down in the cockpit...............


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## Lightning Guy (May 2, 2004)

The problem with all of these "wonder weapons" was that the Germans were running out of fuel to power them and qualified pilots to fly them. Consider that 1200 Me-262s were built but only about 300 saw action.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 2, 2004)

most would have come in to late to see service anyway.............


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## Lightning Guy (May 2, 2004)

Yeah, the Germans would have needed to have gotten these weapons in service prior to D-Day for them to have had a war-changing impact.


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## plan_D (May 4, 2004)

I don't think so, if they had them in good numbers ready for the Battle of Bulge they could have given their tanks on the ground a chance. Lets face it, it was air superiority that stopped the Germans from pushing us back to the beaches.


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## Maestro (May 4, 2004)

plan_D said:


> I don't think so, if they had them in good numbers ready for the Battle of Bulge they could have given their tanks on the ground a chance. Lets face it, it was air superiority that stopped the Germans from pushing us back to the beaches.



Yeah. Think about the Dieppe assault in 1942. The AEAF (Allied Expeditionary Air Force) didn't realy covered the infantery. That's why the Canadian "Essex Scotish" regiment was almost exterminated (I think only 10 or 12 soldiers from this regiment survived). Great-Britain has lost a lot of commandos and tanks on the beach, and the operation was a failure.


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## plan_D (May 5, 2004)

It taught us a lot though. The main reason that was a failure was the artillery batteries that covered the beaches, that we had no clue about.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 5, 2004)

i think they did need them for D-Day, it was their best chance of stopping us, think about it, if you stop us in the channel it's a very small area to cover, but once we start to spread out, we become harder to find and stop...............


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## plan_D (May 5, 2004)

Obviously that had been the best place, but if they had the equipment in the air during the Battle of the Bulge they would have pushed us back to the Channel, they only got stopped by their lack of air power.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 5, 2004)

and by superoior numbers............


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## plan_D (May 5, 2004)

If our ground armies didn't have air support the Germans would have pushed us back, they were using the same tactic as in 1940. If it worked then with inferior numbers it would have worked in 1944.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 5, 2004)

this will proberly make me sound simple minded, but that doesn't make sence to me, can you explain it a bit more pretty pleeeeeese............


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## plan_D (May 5, 2004)

Well, you read that big essay I did on the invasion plan of France, right? Well that was the 1940 plan, the Battle of Bulge plan resembled that plan. 
The Germans were to push through the Ardennes (like in 1940) and cause a wedge between the Allied army, and capture their vital fuel supplies. In 1940 (when the plan worked) as in 1944 they were outnumbered, however in 1944 the Germans were beaten by air power, the early days show the effectivness of the strike, and this was because of bad weather causing the Allied Air Force to stay grounded. After that the Germans were forced to move at night, and be strafed during the day. If the Germans had their aircraft up they could have given their ground army the support it needed.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 8, 2004)

the file the battle of the bulge was on the other day, it's pretty good...........


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

No it's not. Although it does have SOME historical accuracy it is too Hollywood for me. 
Band of Brothers has been the best view of the Battle of the Bulge for me. And that's only from the 101st Airbornes point of view. I'd like to see one for an armoured group.


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## Lightning Guy (May 17, 2004)

I think a better view of the Battle of the Bulge would be from a 9th AF or 2 Tac. AF group. They were the ones that turned the battle around and I'm always happy to see WWII aircombat in film.


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

The 101st actually lost it for the Germans. They weren't expecting anyone to hold on, and the 101st did slowing their blitzkrieg.


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## Lightning Guy (May 17, 2004)

The 101st definitely through a kink in things. But it was air power that allowed the Allies to route the German forces once the weather cleared.


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## plan_D (May 18, 2004)

Yes, of course the air power was the winning factor. The air power however did not push the Germans back, it allowed our ground forces to do it. 
If the 101st hadn't stopped the Germans, they could have caught our fuel supplies which would have enhanced their supply, and ground our forces to a halt with shortages.


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## Andrew (May 18, 2004)

The German advance into the Ardennes Region caught both the British, Canadian and American Forces on the hop, but what a lot of the History books don't tell you is that within 24 hrs of the Germans breaking through the thinly held American lines, General Montgomery had issued orders to the Canadian and British Forces, to form a defensive line along the River Meuse, because Montgomery realised that the Germans wanted to get to Antwerp, if they had acheived this, they would have split the allied Forces in two, and we may have had to organise another Dunkirk, also what most history books don't tell you is that the American Forces north of the bulge were placed under the Comand of Mongomery. 

Although Air Power played a major part in winning the battle of the Bulge, the Germans would not have been able to get further than the River Meuse.


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## plan_D (May 18, 2004)

You underestimate the capabilities, and equipment of the Wehrmacht. Yes, I know the British and Canadians were very well organised, and efficient fighters and our command was top notch but the Germans were sending their best units through Ardennes. The poor equipment, mainly in tanks, we had would have not been able to withstand the sheer force of German tanks, not only in number but in technology. 

I personally think if the weather hadn't cleared the Germans would have made it to Antwerp.


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## Lightning Guy (May 18, 2004)

The Americans were also rushing reinforcements to the area. But at best all the Allied armies could have really hoped to do was fight a delaying action until the weather cleared.


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## plan_D (May 19, 2004)

The Americans were rushing their people there, that's why the British and Canadians took cover as well. 

Even with the Americans, and the Canadian and British defensive line the Germans would have been through it like a hot knife through butter. 
The two huge saves in that were the final clear weather, and the 'Screaming Eagles'.


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## Lightning Guy (May 19, 2004)

One of the German generals, I don't remember which, said that the German armies should have gotten on their knees and thanked God if they reached the Meuse. The only way their attack would work is if there were no hold ups and lousy weather. Fortunately, they had neither.


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## Erich (May 20, 2004)

sorry but the Wehrmacht did not have the fuel reserves to commit to such a large undertaking and simply this was the role of failure.

E ~


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## plan_D (May 20, 2004)

It was actually a very good idea, and was the best idea they had between 1942 and 1945. 1944 was the reintroduction of Heinz Guderian probably the smartest man of the war in military tactics. Hitler gave him the go ahead in 1939 and 1940, then forgot him and pushed him aside in 1942 and 1943 then realising his mistake in 1944 when the Battle of the Bulge came. 

The idea was brilliant, it was to capture the fuel reserves of the Allied Army and drive a wedge between the forces. Without the 'Screaming Eagles' this would have been achieved. They were taking a risk, but everything is a risk in war.


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## Erich (May 20, 2004)

as mentioned it would of been helpful to have a large force of Luftwaffe fighters flying high cover but the Germans were always outnumbered by huge amounts. Possibly the only action of note for Germany concerning air tactics was the 'loser' operations Bodenplatte.

A fantastic book on the operation from Dutch authors Ron Putz and John Manhro has just been released through http://www.hikokiwarplanes.com

should be listed somewhere and now has been published. Mine is in the mail and you English gents should take prime opportunity to pick up a copy


E ~


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## Lightning Guy (May 21, 2004)

Bodenplatte was a bold idea (like the Bulge) but in the end it virtually finished the Luftwaffe as an offensive force just as the Bulge had done to the Wermacht.


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## plan_D (May 21, 2004)

They were both very risky operations, but without taking risks you cannot achieve. Unfortunately (for the Germans) these risks didn't pay off and destroyed the German war machine, if they had paid off it might have been the Germans marching victorious.


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## Lightning Guy (May 21, 2004)

Well, what I have read is that the Germans weren't expecting to win the war with these operations. They were mostly hoping to put the Allies in such a spot that a separate peace seemed like a good idea. That way the Germans could focus on the Soviet Union (and there would be NO separate peace there!).


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 21, 2004)

they must have seen that they were going to loose the whole war anyway................


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## Erich (May 21, 2004)

propaganda does wonders, does it not ? Promises of jet fighters in numbers that the Allies had never seen was a cry to the front and the feelings that the Luftwaffe, "our air force" would make this campaign succesful............... well it is obvious it didn't happen. the British and US day fighter forces took it to the Luftwaffe with incredibly high losses to be suffered by the Germans.

E ~


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## plan_D (May 22, 2004)

The Battle of the Bulge was to push the Western Allies back to their beach head, and yes, sue for seperate peace, then turn on the Soviet Union. By victory I mean a better outcome than what they got. 
If they had kept half of Europe, they'd won. We were never going to allow that though.


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## Lightning Guy (May 22, 2004)

But considering the spot Germany was in that was probably the best option they had avaiable. German propoganda was nothing short of marvelous and Goebels did a fantastic job of keeping the average German "fat, dumb, and happy" about the war. The same thing happened with the Japanese who thought they were winning the war until the B-29s started laying waste to their cities.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 22, 2004)

but remeber in the BoBwe exagerated numbers hugely to boost moral...........


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