# Ernst Udet : the fall of an eagle



## Maestro (Oct 4, 2009)

Greetings ladies and gentlemen.

Okay, I know it was Udet's biography title, but I thought it fitted well to this thread.

It's amazing how this man went from national hero to Luftwaffe's zero. Mainly due to Goering acting like an ass... as he always did !

Taken from : Ernst Udet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Though not interested in politics, Udet joined the Nazi party in 1933 when Göring promised to buy him two new US aeroplanes, the Curtiss Hawk II biplanes (export designation of the F11C-2 Goshawk Helldiver). The planes were used for evaluation purposes and thus indirectly influenced the German idea of dive bombing aeroplanes, such as the Junkers Ju 87 (Stuka) dive bombers. They were also used for aerobatic shows held during the 1936 Summer Olympics. Udet piloted one of them, which luckily survived the war and is now on display in the Polish Aviation Museum.
> 
> After Ju 87 (Stuka) trials, Although the Ju 87 had been awarded top marks and was about to be accepted, a confidential directive issued on 9 June, 1936 by Generalfeldmarschall Wolfram von Richthofen called for the cessation of all further Ju 87 development. However Udet immediately rejected von Richthofen's instructions and Ju 87 development continued.
> 
> ...


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## RabidAlien (Oct 4, 2009)

Interesting. And yes....Goering was an overblown pompous ass.


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## proton45 (Oct 4, 2009)

RabidAlien said:


> Interesting. And yes....Goering was an overblown pompous ass.



and a morphine addict...


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## stona (Oct 4, 2009)

And a great WW1 fighter pilot, twenty two victories, whether we like it or not.


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 4, 2009)

I always wondered if Udet having greatly outscored him was one of the reason why he hated him so much.


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## proton45 (Oct 4, 2009)

vikingBerserker said:


> I always wondered if Udet having greatly outscored him was one of the reason why he hated him so much.



Do we know that Goering hated Udet? I always assumed that they may have had their personality clashes (both of them being "larger then life" characters), but I always assumed that that Udets problems with Goering really stemmed from Goerings "self centered priority's"...


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## stona (Oct 4, 2009)

vikingBerserker said:


> I always wondered if Udet having greatly outscored him was one of the reason why he hated him so much.


An interesting idea. Goering is a conundrum. He was an outstanding pilot during the first war and stood out amongst the rather mediocre men that made up the nazi leadership before the second war. His behaviour during that war and his loss of touch with reality ( he was indeed a pompous ass) is hard to explain just by his drug problem. Interestingly after the war at Nuremberg and free from his addiction he was the nazi leader who most impressed the British and U.S prosecuters, with the possible exception of Speer. The prisoners formed two distinct "camps" one around Goering and the other around Speer. Speer accepted a sort of corporate responsibility for the regime (his deputy was executed) whilst (incredibly) denying any personal knowledge. Goering was completely unapologetic and by intelligent argument raised serious legal doubts about the validity of the entire Nuremberg trial process. He saw the process as a series of show trials, an argument a little too close to the truth for the British and U.S. teams. The Russians had no such qualms and wanted them all executed a.s.a.p. They saw Speer as one that got away. I don't suppose anyone was too bothered when Goering killed himself.
I am not an apologist for the nazis but seeing them as a group of carpet biting mad men is not helpful. Some were, in their own way, talented men. Many were over promoted thugs of little ability. It is a shame that they all willingly loaned their talents to the repulsive regime that the nazi government was.
Steve


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 4, 2009)

proton45 said:


> Do we know that Goering hated Udet? I always assumed that they may have had their personality clashes (both of them being "larger then life" characters), but I always assumed that that Udets problems with Goering really stemmed from Goerings "self centered priority's"...



You're dead on about Udets feelings towards Goering. 

However Goering did blame him (to Hitler) for the BOB defeat and he also wanted to court martial him posthumously. Personally I always wonder if Udet actually committed suicide.


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## proton45 (Oct 4, 2009)

vikingBerserker said:


> You're dead on about Udets feelings towards Goering.
> 
> However Goering did blame him (to Hitler) for the BOB defeat and he also wanted to court martial him posthumously. Personally I always wonder if Udet actually committed suicide.



Ya, I know what you mean about the "suicide"...at the very least it seems like one of those scenarios you see in the old films. "Save us the time and money, and spare your family the heart ache...take the manly way out." 




stona said:


> His behaviour during that war and his loss of touch with reality ( he was indeed a pompous ass) is hard to explain just by his drug problem. Interestingly after the war at Nuremberg and free from his addiction he was the nazi leader who most impressed the British and U.S prosecuters, with the possible exception of Speer.



I tend to disagree about his drug addiction...long term morphine addiction can lead to paranoia and loss of reality judgment. I'm not sure that we know how much morphine he took daily, but one can assume that by the time he became a Nazi leader he had close to unlimited access to the drug. Goering was apparently the "weakest" kind of addict, as he had to be committed (in a strait jacket) for violent addiction to the drug. 
All this being said...the problem of drug addiction is frequently a symptom of an preexisting underlying philological problem. Depression, megalomania, Psychopathy, paranoia...take your pick.


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## RabidAlien (Oct 4, 2009)

stona said:


> And a great WW1 fighter pilot, twenty two victories, whether we like it or not.



Wasn't questioning his skills in WWI, just his grasp on reality during WWII. Being a great pilot does not necessarily make one a great leader of pilots, much less a great head of your country's air forces.


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## Parmigiano (Oct 4, 2009)

Not to justify Herr Goering, but his addiction to morphine was related to a never healed wound that caused him unbearable pain (he was hit by a bullet in the groin during the 1923 'putsch', the wound also made him impotent) 
Morphine-based medications were needed to have some relief, and lead him to total addiction. 
The drug and (probably) also the psychological burden of his impotence can explain his often irrational behavior and disconnection to reality.

What is incredible is that Hitler, who knew perfectly Goering's situation, never removed him from the commend position.


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## proton45 (Oct 4, 2009)

Parmigiano said:


> Not to justify Herr Goering, but his addiction to morphine was related to a never healed wound that caused him unbearable pain (he was hit by a bullet in the groin during the 1923 'putsch', the wound also made him impotent)
> Morphine-based medications were needed to have some relief, and lead him to total addiction.
> The drug and (probably) also the psychological burden of his impotence can explain his often irrational behavior and disconnection to reality.
> 
> What is incredible is that Hitler, who knew perfectly Goering's situation, never removed him from the commend position.




Hitler had one testicle and Goering was shot in the "nuts"...I think that "someone" was over compensating. The two "heads" of the Nazi party had genitalia issues...NO WONDER they hated Sigmund Freud so much.


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## Guns'n'Props (Oct 5, 2009)

Don't you think this parallels General Oberst Hans Jeschonnek ? 
Jeschonnek like Udet was forced to take his life because of Goering's shortcomings.


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## Maestro (Oct 5, 2009)

In fact Goering was hated by most of his squad mates during WWI. He is the only member of his group who was never invited to JG 1 veteran meetings between the wars.

The reason Udet (and other pilots under his command) hated him so much was mainly because of his character... As a commander, he was rarely flying with his squad mates and was very self-important (unlike Richthofen, his predessessor).


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## stona (Oct 7, 2009)

William Pitt (the elder) in 1770
"Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who posses it"

More famously, Lord Acton in 1887
"Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men"

Not sure that the last phrase applies to Goering! Bad,yes but great,I think not.


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## proton45 (Oct 7, 2009)

Its not really "on topic", but has anyone seen the movie "The Great Waldo Pepper"? Bo Brundin plays a disillusioned WW1 flying Ace (German) turned stunt pilot by the name of "Ernst Kessler". The character of Kessler (seems to me) is based on Udet... The way Brundin playes the charecter of Kessler has always "tainted" the way I imagined Udet must have been near the end.

A video link to a clip from the movie showing Brundin some great flying (ya, I know Redford is in the movie)....
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlQT6m7StAY_

And here is the REAL Udet doing some stunt flying...
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2CBx7x5GCI_


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## Maestro (Oct 8, 2009)

I think I read somewhere that Kessler *was* based on Udet. Now, was it real or not, I don't know.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 9, 2009)

Here's a question.... Would Udet have made a better Luftwaffe Chief?


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## stona (Oct 9, 2009)

Lucky13 said:


> Here's a question.... Would Udet have made a better Luftwaffe Chief?



Yes, anywhere but nazi Germany. The senior positions were, for the most part, held by men who were part of Hitler's old "gang", people to whom Hitler was always indulgentl. Who else would choose Hess as a deputy, certainly no threat I suppose. Speer was often frustrated at Hitler's unwillingness to move against the Gauleiters most of whom were old comrades. Himmler made barely veiled threats to the same group who immediately complained to Hitler using their old party apparatus (Boormann). It was who you knew, where you were during the Munich putsch, what you had done in the early days of the party,definitely not a meritocracy!


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## Guns'n'Props (Oct 10, 2009)

Lucky13 said:


> Here's a question.... Would Udet have made a better Luftwaffe Chief?



I could be wrong but I have the impression that Udet was not all that comfortable "flying an office either", but at least he was a much more realistic person and was aware of his limitations. He was probably easier to work with so in sum I would say YES.

Back to Goering - let us say he rose much further than his level of competence. Also the death of Gunther Rall brought me back to the LW Fighter Pilot's Revolt of '45. I can't even imagine how one could call men like Trautloft, Graf, Priller, Lutzow et al a bunch of cowards and blame them for the reversals of the war
when they had done an incredible amount of fighting and were some of the highest decorated men in the regime. Again Udet would probably have been much more understanding.


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## BikerBabe (Oct 10, 2009)

Guns'n'Props said:


> I could be wrong but I have the impression that Udet was not all that comfortable "flying an office either", but at least he was a much more realistic person and was aware of his limitations. He was probably easier to work with so in sum I would say YES.
> 
> Back to Goering - let us say he rose much further than his level of competence. Also the death of Gunther Rall brought me back to the LW Fighter Pilot's Revolt of '45. I can't even imagine how one could call men like Trautloft, Graf, Priller, Lutzow et al a bunch of cowards and blame them for the reversals of the war
> when they had done an incredible amount of fighting and were some of the highest decorated men in the regime. Again Udet would probably have been much more understanding.



...which yet again as far as I understand it, were one of the more unfortunate personality traits that Hermann Göring displayed during WW2, i.e. blaming others for his own mistakes.
As far as I've understood, that was a personality trait that increased as Germany became increasingly pressed during the war.
The drugs ceratinly didn't do anything good for the man, except for keeping him painless when he needed it. And afterwards the drugs has just enhanced any weaknessed and/or twisted the person using them.

Quoted from the web:

"Wolfgang Paul in his "Hermann Goring. Hitler Paladin or Puppet" records that Goering first took morphine to counter wounds he received in the air in November 1915.
"The engagement occurred during an interception patrol with two fellow officers when attacking a large HP twin engined bomber.Goering attacked one of these lumbering bombers with his machine gun and forced it to go down.Attacked by six British fighters,his own aircraft took hits in the fuel tank and lost a wing.
He managed to land behind the German line,but had sustained a serious hip wound.
Metal splinters had to be removed from the deep gash, and without immediate medical attention he would have bled to death. Sixty bullet holes were discovered in his aircraft. He was in for a long stay in hospital".

When the Geschwader "Richthofen" was disbanded at Aschaffenburg November 1918 (the aircraft had been flown to Darmstadt and destroyed), Paul records that Goering "suffered greatly from the wound in his thigh,for which he had to take morphine to ease the pain"

Goering was further wounded in the failed putsch on November 9 1923 and by 13 November, his wound,high on the thigh was critical,it was infected, causing pus, fever and pain.
To alleviate Goering's suffering, the doctors authorised (- and by this time he was sheltering in Austria) two morphine injections a day which continued for a month.
Despite this, the pain did not diminish and while the continuing morphine injections were later to ease the pain in his groin and leg,he became addicted to the drug. (Something the Wehrmacht were to become aware of and resulted in a policy of morphine injections being discontinued after a short time, as Wolfgang Paul experienced himself in the Second World War Russian campaign).

In the spring of 1925, Goering fled to Sweden from Italy and arrived there with a large supply of morphine, but his intake had increased from two to six injections per day over the previous year.
It is recorded that there was an attempt by Goering to forsake morphine but the lack of painkillers led to him purchasing the much dearer morphine."


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