# A New Cold War?



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 12, 2008)

Are we on the brink of a new Cold War? 

Russia's tensions with the West are at an all time high since the end of the Cold War. Tension with her former Republics is also rising as they are turning to Western influence and trying to get out from under the Russian sphere of influece.

Putin has threatened to point nukes at Europe again, in retaliation to the US putting a defensive anti nuclear missile system in Eastern Europe.

_"if part of the United States’ nuclear capability is situated in Europe and that our military experts consider that they represent a potential threat then we will have to take appropriate retaliatory steps. What steps? Of course we must have new targets in Europe."_

Long range bomber flights have resumed, coming very close within NATO territories. In 1997 Russian fleet including an aircraft carrier sortied into the Med for the first time since the Soviet days.

What do you guys think?


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## davparlr (Aug 12, 2008)

I certainly think Putin has an agenda and that is to be a major player in the world. Oil has fueled his power. He is willing to be major player even if it include blackmail, which I think he is plotting against the EU using oil, or bullying which I think he is trying against he unprotected countries of the old USSR. This should be confronted, which could be peaceably achieved if the free nations of the world stand together, something they hate to do. There will be no cold war if the rest of the world stands against it.


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## syscom3 (Aug 12, 2008)

Unlike the post WW2 years, there is no national consensus with the US and EU to contain the Russians.

As long as we mess around on Russia's borders, expand NATO and force a missle defense system upon a Europe that doesn't want it, then we will have troubles.

Don't do any of those, and there will be no problems with Russia.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 12, 2008)

I agree Sys and yes I think Putin has an agenda - at the same time and as stated on other threads, we're dealing with a whole different "Bear" as compared to the Cold War years. Lenin and Marx (and I'm not talkin the actor and singer) have been put on the shelf. My belief is Russia has tasted capitalism and likes it (Ramerizzz chime in any time). I think when the current "guard" of Russia, Europe and the US changes, you'll see some "warming."


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## Amsel (Aug 12, 2008)

Another cold war is unlikely in the same sense as the last cold war. It is highly unlikely that the Russian Federation will go back to communism. They are emerging from decades of economic and social woes to become a powerhouse. China has also became an economic powerhouse under it's psuedo commie-capitalist style of goverment. I think China leads the world in manufacturing now. But that is something that can be changed by boycotting chinese made goods.

As U.S. prestige and power slowly fade over the next few years, Russia and China will become more emboldened( as seen in S. Osettia). The ace in the hole that we have is we control the richest ,cheapest oilfield in the world. Which is Iraq. We are not selling them oil. They have to depend on more expensive and poorer quality oil from Venezuala and the Caspian sea. This is holding them back from becoming more dominant but it is also a bone of contention.


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## JugBR (Aug 12, 2008)

i prefer to rhink positive: usa, russia, china and european union will work out there differences.


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## Matt308 (Aug 12, 2008)

I am worried that Russian economy benefits are split between the haves and have nots. There is no real middle class in Russia. And there is a huge portion of the population that longs for the communist days where wealth was redistributed to all. Social welfare programs provide a significant benefit for those who do not produce. Also, Russia is in a real population downfall that even state sponsored incentives cannot prevent precipitation. All of this adds up to a constituency that believes the gov't is their savior. Patriotic chest beating provides a common direction and focus for the masses and takes the collective minds off of the real internal political and economic issues.

In my humble opinion, this is analogous to what is happening with the the left of the US.


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## pbfoot (Aug 12, 2008)

The same people that ran the country earlier are still in power its just a new look or as they say in advertising the New and Improved USSR. I sure hope there a new and improved Chamberlain


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## Matt308 (Aug 12, 2008)

Well said, Pb. Well said.

As I said in another thread, historical precedence indicates that russia is not beyond subjagating other nation states nor their own citizens. Even if that means millions of deaths to reach their ends. Perhaps russia is a domesticated beast today, but I personally am wary.


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## drgondog (Aug 12, 2008)

syscom3 said:


> Unlike the post WW2 years, there is no national consensus with the US and EU to contain the Russians.
> 
> As long as we mess around on Russia's borders, expand NATO and force a missle defense system upon a Europe that doesn't want it, then we will have troubles.
> 
> Don't do any of those, and there will be no problems with Russia.



If that were true, Russia would not have continued fueling Iran's nuc program, armed Iran and Syria with their latest anti aircraft technology, resisted every meaningful sanction of Iran, resisted all attempts by the US to compel Iraq to live up to the inspections that they agreed to in 1991.

Putin has an agenda. It is clear now why Russia vigorously opposed Gerogia and Ukraine entry into NATO. Ukraine is next.


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## Freebird (Aug 12, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Are we on the brink of a new Cold War?
> 
> What do you guys think?





drgondog said:


> Putin has an agenda. It is clear now why Russia vigorously opposed Gerogia and Ukraine entry into NATO. Ukraine is next.



Interesting take on this on talk radio, this was a "Poke in the eye" to Bush.

If you all remember, Bush visited Georgia, with it's Havard educated pro-Western President. Bush gave a speech saying that he wanted to bring Georgia into NATO. Georgia has also contributed the most troops to Iraq after US UK, {2,000+} and has also been willing to do the dirty work fighting there, unlike some other "participants".

If you consider the ex-Soviet Republics, Georgia was by far the most "pro-US". Some of the conservatives on the radio have advanced that this is a test demonstration - to all of the other ex-communist republics. It sends a message, if you try to join NATO or get cozy with the US, they will abandon you in your hour of need, and the most help you will get is a wringing of hands and expressions of "regret" as your country is crushed.

It seems in this test of wills, somebody just blinked.... 

Just what I heard today.


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## Matt308 (Aug 12, 2008)

Excellent point, Freebird. I hope the US blinks. While I have no belief other than the US would kick the $hit out of russia... what for? And at what cost. We don't need it. Let russian wallow in its own. Much easier to play russia's game of complaining to world bodies and soliciting world condemnation of thier supposed foe.

And I do believe Ukraine is next. Especially if there is even an inkling that of them garnering EU or NATO support. While the former will never happen, there will likely be a renewed push for the latter. And it will never br granted now. Too bad for Ukraine.


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## SoD Stitch (Aug 12, 2008)

Once again, Matt hit the nail on the head.

However, that being said, it's pretty much up to Russia (read: Putin) as to whether or not there WILL be another Cold War; I don't think Putin wants another Cold War, but he does want a world where other Powers (in particular the US) will take him and his country seriously. It pretty much comes down to pride, good old Russian pride and, by extension, domestic political power within Russia. He will push others around, when necessary, but he doesn't want a full-blown confrontation with the West. I think you're right again, Matt, the Ukraine is next.


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## Matt308 (Aug 12, 2008)

Putin is focusing entirely too much on old soviet nemeses. He needs to check his south and east borders. He would do well to not piss off his future allies.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 12, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> I sure hope there a new and improved Chamberlain


And a new and improved RAF?


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## wilbur1 (Aug 13, 2008)

The problem i see is putin is mafioso and doesnt give sh##, he expects U.S. money and backing to bail him out, ever check out how much the russian mafia is here in the states? if not i say cut them off from all aide


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## JugBR (Aug 13, 2008)

one think that no one could explain to me in a satisfactory way:

why nuclear weapons are allowed and poison gas dont ?

i think is ridiculous, you can´t poison the air that your enemy breathes but you can disintegrate them.

why dont outlaw nukes ?


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## Maestro (Aug 13, 2008)

I once saw a documentary on Putin...

Don't forget that this guy is a former Red Army Colonel and KGB agent. He was really close to the power of the USSR (and later Russia) *and* the mafia until the death of Yeltsin... He is still pretty close to the mafia today.

Go back to communism ? I don't think so. But becoming a new "Russian Federation" with Comrade-President Vladimir Putin as their leader ? Yes, indeed.


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## timshatz (Aug 13, 2008)

Oil is the new strategic asset. Whomever controls more of it, has the power formerly found in nukes. In that respect, I am less worried what Russia is going to do (looks like it will take control of Georgia as a satellite if not directly) than I am about what the US and Europe is going to do to increase it's access to more supplies.

Right now, Russia has far more access to oil directly and through defacto allies than it needs while the inverse is accurate for the US and Europe. 

Next 5 years are going to be very interesting. 

Cold war? Doubt it. This time, Russia has products the West needs.


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## Kruska (Aug 13, 2008)

timshatz said:


> Oil is the new strategic asset.......Cold war? Doubt it. This time, Russia has products the West needs.



Hello timshatz,

One of very few truly analytic posts on this forum, I like it please keep it up.

Regards
Kruska


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## Kruska (Aug 13, 2008)

JugBR said:


> one think that no one could explain to me in a satisfactory way:
> 
> why nuclear weapons are allowed and poison gas dont ?
> 
> ...



Hello JugBR,

First off all nukes cost a hell a lot of $$$ to develop and deploy – so who wants to write of this investment in his balance sheet?

Secondly, those who have them rule the world via indirect usage as a veto member in the UN and the development of nukes by others is an easy task to check on and to control.

Gas can be developed, bought and deployed by any jackass at attractive price ranges and to control the possession of gas by others in regards to quantity available, quality and deploy devices is more or less impossible.

So the rulers of this planet came up with the remarkable conclusion; Ban gas – Control nukes.

I hope this might help to explain this in a satisfactory way  

Regards
Kruska


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## Gnomey (Aug 13, 2008)

Correct on that point Kruska but at the end of the day Tim has hit the nail on the head, so long has Russia as resources that are required by the West then it is unlikely to become a new cold war. 

However as Chris has said Putin certainly has an agenda he wishes to follow using his main strategic asset, Oil. Whilst both countries still have Nukes (and a lot of them) they won't need to be used if you control the others oil supply. A new cold war is only possible/likely to happen is when the West becomes self sufficient in oil/energy production. Even then I still think it is unlikely but in the near future Russia is going to dominate her neighbours over the energy issue but this won't occur to the same extent with those countries in Western Europe/NATO members. Russia wants to be seen as a Superpower again but I'm not sure they will go so far as to antagonise the NATO powers - only those smaller neighbouring countries which rely on them for the energy production needs.


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## Kruska (Aug 13, 2008)

*Gnomey................
Russia wants to be seen as a Superpower again but I'm not sure they will go so far as to antagonise the NATO powers - only those smaller neighbouring countries which rely on them for the energy production needs.*

Hello Gnomey,

Yes agreed. Germany however might be the most unstable factor within NATO due to its dependence on Russia’s oil and gas supplies. On the other hand one could argue that Russia’s dependency on Germanys Petro Euros could counterbalance its desperate need for recognition as a superpower.

It all depends on the “mental balance” or “Russian Soul” of Mr. Putin.

Regards
Kruska


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## JugBR (Aug 13, 2008)

kurska, what happened with that old idea of joint all UE armys in one single european army ? i remember mario soares, former prime minister of portugal said that once.

do you rhink a single european army, navy and air force should make europe as a whole more decisive in international issues ?

also in this case, would you think nato should be dismiss and the american bases in euope should be disactivated ?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 13, 2008)

Amsel said:


> Another cold war is unlikely in the same sense as the last cold war. It is highly unlikely that the Russian Federation will go back to communism. .



So since when does a cold war have to because Russia returns to Communism. Never said anthing about them returning to Communism...

I bet if the Soviet Union was only Socialists during the Cold War we still would have a Cold War. Come on now!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 13, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> The same people that ran the country earlier are still in power its just a new look or as they say in advertising the New and Improved USSR. I sure hope there a new and improved Chamberlain



Ditto!

Dont forget that Putin was KGB, no matter how minor his role was.

I would be lying if I said I did not have distrust for him.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 13, 2008)

All true, Putin was KGB, but was he a die-hard communist? I don't think so. I think Putin is out for Putin.


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## pbfoot (Aug 13, 2008)

FLYBOYJ said:


> All true, Putin was KGB, but was he a die-hard communist? I don't think so. I think Putin is out for Putin.


The same as every previous Russian ruler


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 13, 2008)

And 99% of politicians to be exact.


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## JugBR (Aug 13, 2008)

but if you see how was russia when yeltsin left the chair and now, youll see that puttin raise their economy. dont think oil is the only reason for that.the level of investments in russia now is bigger, because the country overpass the great economic crisis.

economy is a strong of puttin.


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## Milos Sijacki (Aug 13, 2008)

SoD Stitch said:


> Once again, Matt hit the nail on the head.
> 
> However, that being said, it's pretty much up to Russia (read: Putin) as to whether or not there WILL be another Cold War; I don't think Putin wants another Cold War, but he does want a world where other Powers (in particular the US) will take him and his country seriously. It pretty much comes down to pride, good old Russian pride and, by extension, domestic political power within Russia. He will push others around, when necessary, but he doesn't want a full-blown confrontation with the West. I think you're right again, Matt, the Ukraine is next.



I agree. I personally think that is the case, to show that Russia is no more a weak country, but a strong one. A country that deserves respect, a country to be looked upon.

You really think Ukraine is next? Why?


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## Milos Sijacki (Aug 13, 2008)

Personally, I like Putin, I wish we in Serbia had a poltician like him-- decisive and intelligent. 

Actually, I think the world could use another Tito, I mean a politician of his skills and reputation. He did make Yugoslavia known and respected world wide.


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## JugBR (Aug 13, 2008)

my great-grandfather was tito´s fan


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## Erich (Aug 13, 2008)

Putin has an adjenda as Bill said on the first page, he wants Mideast oil and is playing the bluff game with Muslim nations hoping for a quick strike. think the Georgia, Ukraine or anything else he has up on his collar is just a draw for something that he and the govt. are developing under darkness ............ just watch

funny we have chatted about this since our first little mission over in the mid-east under Bushy Sr. when most of you were not even members


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## Kruska (Aug 13, 2008)

JugBR said:


> kurska, what happened with that old idea of joint all UE armys in one single european army ? ............



Hello JugBR,

There is a Euro Brigade at present in addition to the French-German and Dutch-German Brigade. These Brigades are going to be increased, but I do not believe that this envisioned Euro Army will ever become a mature alternative to the present NATO.

IMO there is no EU in reflection to a joint interest of Europe’s population willing to become one State with a common government. But rather a loose alliance of European countries who regard the EU rather as a territory without import duty tax, a possibility to get their hands on subsidized funds (e.g. Ireland) and to act as a more weighted power towards the US and other powers.

At present we have two political power systems, the EU Parliament verses the National governments of the respective individual nations. To me the whole setup of the present EU is an ill borne idea, originating from the Post WWII and Cold War period and not suitable for the creation of a realistic USE.

The US and other powers are certainly pleased about this situation and will certainly take every chance to instigate or add fuel onto a brawl among the EU members.

Regards
Kruska


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## Matt308 (Aug 13, 2008)

Yep, I as a US citizen ultimately desire chaos for my european brethren. That would benefit me economically, militarily, and socially.


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## stasoid (Aug 13, 2008)

The Cold War didnt end with the fall of the Berlin Wall. The Bear was on its knees pushed to the corner. Now he's standing up. We came to the point where we either kill him or leave him alone.

Russia is a self-sufficient country. It has everything a country needs: people, territory, natural resorses. Can survive without the West whatsoever.

America, on the other hand, is in a desperate hunt for oil and will crash everyone who's on its way as situation with natural resources will now worsen year after year. It's not a secret - oil for US is like blood for a vampire.
20 years from now China alone will consume same amount of oil and gas as the whole World today. So, who knows what the US is gonna do then, but Russia has to stay alert anyways.


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## Kruska (Aug 13, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> Yep, I as a US citizen ultimately desire chaos for my european brethren. That would benefit me economically, militarily, and socially.



Who ever mentioned CHAOS? I wrote a brawl  

Fact is that every country has its own interests, such as Germany, the US or any other country, and sometimes these do not allow harmony or a common goal.
What is so difficult to understand or accept about this issue? What is it that you or the US could fear so much about an independent country or a possible power such as a USE?  

Regards
Kruska


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## Kruska (Aug 13, 2008)

stasoid said:


> Russia is a self-sufficient country. It has everything a country needs: people, territory, natural resorses. Can survive without the West whatsoever.



Hello stasoid,

With all respect to your country and your national pride, you forgot the 35 Billion Euro that your country has received so far from the West, in order to survive until today.

Regards
Kruska


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## Matt308 (Aug 13, 2008)

Kruska said:


> The US and other powers are certainly pleased about this situation and will certainly take every chance to instigate or add fuel onto a brawl among the EU members.
> 
> Regards
> Kruska



Whatever, Kruska. Keep 'em coming. You're winning hearts and minds over here.


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## Kruska (Aug 13, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> Whatever, Kruska. Keep 'em coming. You're winning hearts and minds over here.



Geeeh thanks,

I knew that soner or later I would get through to you  

Regards
Kruska


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## Matt308 (Aug 13, 2008)

Cheers. All us ignant US citizen hates use europe types.


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## Matt308 (Aug 13, 2008)

What else you got, Kruska. The forum awaits.


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## stasoid (Aug 13, 2008)

Kruska said:


> With all respect to your country and your national pride, you forgot the 35 Billion Euro that your country has received so far from the West, in order to survive until today



You mean loans from IMF etc? I thought they've been payed off by now. 

And I honestly, have no idea where all those money gone. Sorry, I didnt see them. A bunch of crooks ruled the country for some time before Putin came. Now, they call themselves "Liberal Opposition". Did you give them 35bln? Oh my God!


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## Matt308 (Aug 13, 2008)




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## Kruska (Aug 13, 2008)

stasoid said:


> You mean loans from IMF etc? I thought they've been payed off by now.
> 
> And I honestly, have no idea where all those money gone. Sorry, I didnt see them. A bunch of crooks ruled the country for some time before Putin came. Now, they call themselves "Liberal Opposition". Did you give them 35bln? Oh my God!



Nope, this money was given to a guy who introduced himself as Putin, most of it from Germany after his "retorical highclass speech" at the German Parliament. Most of the Putin loans, and all of the Gorbatchow and Jeltzin Loans have been "cancelled" by Germany in order to help your country to survive past the year 2005. The remaining sum is paid of through gas and oil supplies to Germany, since Russia recieved this amount from Germany and not via IMF or other countries. 

The total sum which Russia has received overall from IMF and other Western countries is far more then 35 Billion Euros.

But don't worry your government knows about this and its obligation despite sometimes flexing the Bears toes.  

Regards
Kruska


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## JugBR (Aug 14, 2008)

Kruska said:


> Hello stasoid,
> 
> With all respect to your country and your national pride, you forgot the 35 Billion Euro that your country has received so far from the West, in order to survive until today.
> 
> ...



kurska, the russia is a rich country in natural resources. the only thing they need to import is tin, can you believe ?

besides the bear is punched, or the bear is strong, or the bear is angry, or the bear is happy, or the bear is bored, lets be francs: theres nothing better than a kaipriroska(vodca´s caipirinha) in a sunny day !

the russians dont want to re-conquest the former republics, they still the major country in landing area. what they want is make more babies and grow their economy, and i grant you the 35 bilion euros was a great investment, because sooner russia will be a consumer market that any kind of multinational that self-proclaims "world leader" must be inside.

but they have that huge army, huge, navy and also huge air force, and for geo-strategical motivations and also by their largest territory, they wont dismiss. and obvious, the western analists, would be yet terrified by an eventual nuclear strike, for a long time. 

and russia will also claim the dismiss of missile bases nearby their frontiers for a long time. but since one is affraid of another, world can sleep safe !

like was said before in this forum: the comming generetions will gradually forget all this cold war BS, and goes to what really matters: sunny days and kaipiroskas !



also remember, russian shown they can be so evil than us !


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjnHMx3KaBo_

...and people says "russia is not capitalist, not free society"...

ha ! they have crappy pop music ! of course they are capitalist ! would you say to ma a capitalist country that havent your culture in danger by crap music stupid tv shows and A.H. comercial movies ? of course they are. they ears bleed like ours !

regards !


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## stasoid (Aug 14, 2008)

Kruska said:


> Nope, this money was given to a guy who introduced himself as Putin, most of it from Germany after his "retorical highclass speech" at the German Parliament.



Then you have nothing to worry about. The debt will be returned in time with the interest on top.  

I didnt realise Russia is still a foreign aid recepient. Bad for me. Thanks for the info.


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## JugBR (Aug 14, 2008)

for the russian friends of forum:

could you xplain what happends in this video ?


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZbRFmi738E_


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## Ramirezzz (Aug 14, 2008)

JugBR said:


> for the russian friends of forum:
> 
> could you xplain what happends in this video ?
> 
> ...




I think that happend in Germany last year. There's a one of those radical national-bolsevik party activists delivering the leaflets around. Putin asks him in Russian and German:
"young man, please give us one of the leaflets you have in your hand. You've made what you intended to do so please leave us alone now, let me answer the question first" etc. 

check this one, this is a truly masterpice   :


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXtb1eXohUg_


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## Ramirezzz (Aug 14, 2008)

Kruska said:


> Nope, this money was given to a guy who introduced himself as Putin, most of it from Germany after his "retorical highclass speech" at the German Parliament. Most of the Putin loans, and all of the Gorbatchow and Jeltzin Loans have been "cancelled" by Germany in order to help your country to survive past the year 2005.



from 114 billion dollars of debt by 1 jan 2005 30 billion were "cancelled" in the same year. I believe rest was repayed (up to some 40 billions of debt by now)


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## Kruska (Aug 15, 2008)

Ramirezzz said:


> from 114 billion dollars of debt by 1 jan 2005 30 billion were "cancelled" in the same year. I believe rest was repayed (up to some 40 billions of debt by now)



Hello Ramirezzz,

Yes, you are correct on that. Of the remaining 40 Billion $ about 8 Billion Euro are still open in regards to Germany. However Russia and Germany are settling this debt through counterbalancing Oil and Gas supplies, whereas Putin gave us a very good deal on it. 

Hopefully the Georgian dispute does not affect our countries relationship too much. Putin should have either never started that attack, or he should have overrun this place within a weekend and make it a fact. Just as the US and UK handled the Iraq case in 2003.

NATO the UN and the US will be whining away at this “occurrence” for a couple of weeks and resume business relations soon afterwards unless the US and some NATO followers try to use it as a suitable excuse to play moral apostle in order to keep Russia down. But usually the $$ prevails.

Regards
Kruska


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## Ramirezzz (Aug 15, 2008)

Kruska said:


> Hopefully the Georgian dispute does not affect our countries relationship too much.


I hope so . Until now Germany had took rather moderate position and did not immediately join the choir of Western hardliners critisizing the Russia's actions in Georgia, even when some hard statements were been made during the Medvedev vs Merkel conversation. 




> NATO the UN and the US will be whining away at this “occurrence” for a couple of weeks and resume business relations soon afterwards unless the US and some NATO followers try to use it as a suitable excuse to play moral apostle in order to keep Russia down. But usually the $$ prevails.
> 
> Regards
> Kruska



I have the very same thoughts. In the next two or tree weeks the NATO will let the steam off cancelling some joint military excersises etc but in the end
the pragmatic aspects will prevail. West still needs Russia and Russia needs West neverthless.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 16, 2008)

Well here goes Russia threatening its former friends again...

*Russia: Poland risks attack because of US missiles*

By JIM HEINTZ, Associated Press Writer 

MOSCOW - A top Russian general said Friday that Poland's agreement to accept a U.S. missile interceptor base exposes the ex-communist nation to attack, possibly by nuclear weapons, the Interfax news agency reported. 

ADVERTISEMENT

The statement by Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn is the strongest threat that Russia has issued against the plans to put missile defense elements in former Soviet satellite nations.

Poland and the United States on Thursday signed a deal for Poland to accept a missile interceptor base as part of a system the United States says is aimed at blocking attacks by rogue nations. Moscow, however, feels it is aimed at Russia's missile force.

*"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent," Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff, was quoted as saying.*

*He added, in clear reference to the agreement, that Russia's military doctrine sanctions the use of nuclear weapons "against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them." Nogovitsyn that would include elements of strategic deterrence systems, he said, according to Interfax.*

*At a news conference earlier Friday, Nogovitsyn had reiterated Russia's frequently stated warning that placing missile-defense elements in Poland and the Czech Republic would bring an unspecified military response. But his subsequent reported statement substantially stepped up a war of words.*

Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski was quoted Friday by the Polish news agency PAP as saying that Poland is open to Russian inspections because it wants to give Moscow "tangible proof" that the planned base is not directed against Russia.

U.S. officials have said the timing of the deal was not meant to antagonize Russian leaders at a time when relations already are strained over the recent fighting between Russia and Georgia over the separatist Georgian region of South Ossetia.

Russian forces went deep into Georgia in the fighting, raising wide concerns that Russia could be seeking to occupy parts of its small, pro-U.S. neighbor, which has vigorously lobbied to join NATO, or even to force its government to collapse.

"I think the Russian behavior over the last several days is generally concerning not only to the United States but to all of our European allies," said Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman, when asked about Russian threats against Poland as a result of the missile defense agreement.

He also suggested that earlier U.S. offers for broad cooperation with Moscow on the missile defense program may be reevaluated considering the latest developments.

Under the agreement that Warsaw and Washington reached Thursday, Poland will accept an American missile interceptor base.

Washington says the planned system, which is not yet operational, is needed to protect the U.S. and Europe from possible attacks by missile-armed "rogue states" like Iran. The Kremlin, however, feels it is aimed at Russia's missile force and warns it will worsen tensions.

In an interview on Poland's news channel TVN24, Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said the United States agreed to help augment Poland's defenses with Patriot missiles in exchange for placing 10 missile defense interceptors in the Eastern European country.

He said the deal also includes a "mutual commitment" between the two nations to come to each other's assistance "in case of trouble."

That clause appeared to be a direct reference to Russia.

Poland has all along been guided by fears of a newly resurgent Russia, an anxiety that has intensified with Russia's offensive in Georgia. In past days, Polish leaders said that fighting justified Poland's demands that it get additional security guarantees from Washington in exchange for allowing the anti-missile base on its soil.

"Simply the existence of this installation increases Poland's security," Polish President Lech Kaczynski said Friday. 

Russia: Poland risks attack because of US missiles - Yahoo! News


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## Konigstiger205 (Aug 16, 2008)

I for one I hope the situation won't "worm up" because we are right next to Ukraine and our army its not in such a good shape...but I don't think that Russians are stupid enough to risk a conflict with the West and if they are then God help us all...


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## JugBR (Aug 16, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Well here goes Russia threatening its former friends again...
> 
> *Russia: Poland risks attack because of US missiles*
> 
> ...



its very true that poland is one of former iron curtain countries that have the most anti-russian positions. maybe because the 2 soviet invasions of poland in ww2 and also the decades behind the iron curtain. also the struggle of lech vallessa against comunist dictatureship.

but the position that poland is taking could be too much radical, since they are in the middle way of east and west. they should have a more moderate policy, to unify both sides.

but usa says: 'the planned system, which is not yet operational, is needed to protect the U.S. and Europe from possible attacks by missile-armed "rogue states" like Iran", however was proved that iran havent missile technology to reach europa or usa. also they hadnt nuclear devices.

whats the simplified conclusion of russians ? its is for them. since poland signs this treaty at the same time that is strongly issuing russia for the conflict in georgia...


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## Ramirezzz (Aug 16, 2008)

well it's quite simple that if Russia considers the existence of the anti missile system in Eastern Europe as a threat to its national security than it will declare those as a legitimate targets in a possible global war. They told so hundred times.
Actually this is rather a symbolic gesture to Russians. A reaiming of missiles takes some 8 or 9 minuites. So it doesn't really matter which targets the missiles are aiming at.


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