# Is England....



## Lucky13 (Apr 16, 2013)

As we all know, them there Normans arrived and made a mess on this sandy patch back in the year of the Lord 1066, but you never hard anything about them leaving, so......is England still under occupation?


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## Readie (Apr 16, 2013)

Good point Jan. The Normans were absorbed into English society which was so good they did not want to leave...
We'd nicked their boats anyway 
Staying was the best decision the French ever made...apart from making Ami's in Slough 
Cheers
John


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## Njaco (Apr 16, 2013)

no politics. I can see it now..."We're Tory occupied,.."etc, etc....none of that!


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## Readie (Apr 16, 2013)

Njaco said:


> no politics. I can see it now..."We're Tory occupied,.."etc, etc....none of that!



Promise Chris. I have had my fill of 'politics' of late believe me...

Just a josh with Jan, nothing more.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 16, 2013)

Politics are banned from this thread Oh Almighty Pop Tart Whisperer, tongue in cheek here!  

Edit: I see that we crossed posts there John...what he said Chris!


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## Njaco (Apr 16, 2013)




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## Vic Balshaw (Apr 16, 2013)

Was this the grand philosophical thought of the night shift Jan or a comment you over heard in the pub.







Got to admit its food for deep thought.


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## The Basket (Apr 16, 2013)

Depends if you think the Vikings and Saxons were English. 

They occupied parts of the British Isles and the The Normans were also of Viking ancestry occupied them.

I wonder if we could still blame Norway and Sweden for the Viking hordes?


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## Njaco (Apr 16, 2013)

nope, just the Viking crabs....................


I'll get me coat!


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## stona (Apr 16, 2013)

The Basket said:


> Depends if you think the Vikings and Saxons were English.
> 
> They occupied parts of the British Isles and the The Normans were also of Viking ancestry occupied them.
> 
> I wonder if we could still blame Norway and Sweden for the Viking hordes?



And Denmark,bits of northern Germany etc.

The North Sea isn't that big. People were going back and forth in significant numbers from the 8th Century onwards (that we know of).

Cheers

Steve


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## Readie (Apr 16, 2013)

All the barbaric hordes that paddled across the North Sea to come and live here were pleasantly suprised by our temperate climate and general good will to all.... The French were so keen that they would wait to be asked they just turned up and gate crashed. The Romans stayed a long time and like all good visitors left more than they arrived with.
Cheers
John


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## Readie (Apr 16, 2013)

'nope, just the Viking crabs....................'

Noooooo...no one expects the Viking crabs..


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## The Basket (Apr 16, 2013)

In the early years, The French Normans occupied England. However, When the Plantagenent Kings lost their French lands, they had to become English because they could no longer be French.
The Norman invasion was similar to the Roman as it was a leadership change at the top whereas the Saxons and the Vikings killed themselves to power. And occupying land in the process. The Celts and then the Saxons were ethnically cleansed off the land. The Saxons filled a gap by the end of the Roman empire and the island nature of the UK made us perfect for amphibious assualt which the Vikings did so well.

What is annoying is that Harold could have defeated William at Hastings if he didnt have to fight the Vikings at the same time. 2 front wars are bad news.


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## Njaco (Apr 16, 2013)

Readie said:


> All the barbaric hordes that paddled across the North Sea to come and live here were pleasantly suprised *by our temperate climate* and general good will to all.... The French were so keen that they would wait to be asked they just turned up and gate crashed. The Romans stayed a long time and like all good visitors left more than they arrived with.
> Cheers
> John



You call it a 'temperate' climate because you can't see anything with all that rain and fog. 



> ....2 front wars are bad news.



Ummm, still are!


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## herman1rg (Apr 16, 2013)

Narrator: "For thirty years Caesar ruled with an iron fist. Then with a wooden foot, and finally with a piece of string"

Moriartus: I see that ten years in Britain have not changed your Imperial Roman outlook, Caesar.
Julius Caesar : True, Moriartus, always a Roman I.
Moriartus: Will you take wine?
Caesar: No thanks, I think I'll have a half of mild and a packet of crisps.


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## yulzari (Apr 16, 2013)

It would be nice to have an English monarch of England before 1,000 years have gone past; with foreign johnnies having taken the job for the last 947 years. A Dane would also be traditional (yes I know Phil the Greek is Danish.)


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## The Basket (Apr 16, 2013)

oliver cromwell


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## Readie (Apr 16, 2013)

yulzari said:


> It would be nice to have an English monarch of England before 1,000 years have gone past; with foreign johnnies having taken the job for the last 947 years. A Dane would also be traditional (yes I know Phil the Greek is Danish.)




Prince Philip was born in Greece into the Greek and Danish royal families, but his family was exiled from Greece when he was a child. After being educated in France, England, Germany and Scotland, he joined the British Royal Navy at the age of 18 in 1939. 
From July 1939, he began corresponding with the 13-year-old Princess Elizabeth (his third cousin through Queen Victoria and the elder daughter and heiress presumptive of King George VI) whom he had first met in 1934. 

A veritable league of nations make up our Royal family...very closely related too.


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## Airframes (Apr 16, 2013)

So not only do they chase school girls, they marry their cousins. Do I hear banjos - or was it just a German Danish Corgi howling .....?


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## Lucky13 (Apr 16, 2013)

Just to make sure, don't sound like a pig....


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## parsifal (Apr 16, 2013)

The great strength of the English is that they are a nation of foreign immigrants. its been going on since Roman times at least. 

Now the real question is are they a better nation because of that forced melding. i think they are. the english have a greater sense of equality among their peoples and in their dealings than most nations. They fell down during the era of colonialism, but I see that as an anomaly in the national psyche, not the norm.


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## stona (Apr 17, 2013)

The Basket said:


> oliver cromwell



A great man,but as the head ofwhat amounted to a military dictatorship,not a monarch. Lord Protector had a nice ring too it.

He is often listed as one of the most influential Britons of all time and yet he very nearly left for the New World. I wonder what influence he would have wielded there,unremarkable amongst many of similarly extreme puritan views.

Cheers

Steve


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## yulzari (Apr 17, 2013)

Cromwell was offered the crown but declined it but the title of Lord Protector was a traditional title of a Regent during a monarch's minority and was succeeded by his son so the difference is questionable.


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## stona (Apr 17, 2013)

Richard Cromwell's "Protectorate" looked a lot more like a pseudo monarchy than his father's.
Oliver Cromwell's power always stemmed ultimately from the Army. The Army never trusted Richard Cromwell and ultimately undid him.
Cheers
Steve


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## Readie (Apr 17, 2013)

The great strength of the English is that they are a nation of foreign immigrants. its been going on since Roman times at least. 

Now the real question is are they a better nation because of that forced melding. i think they are. the english have a greater sense of equality among their peoples and in their dealings than most nations. They fell down during the era of colonialism, but I see that as an anomaly in the national psyche, not the norm. 

Being an Island race makes a people feel more united as well Michael. I wouldn't necessarily agree that 'we fell down' during the many years of the Empire...more spread our wings , culture and justice to other less civilised lands. Maybe we shouldn't have sent all the convicts to Australia / Tasmania. I would agree that being sent to Belgium would have a much greater punishment. Many free men made their way to the America's, Australia New Zealand making those countries what they are today. The upstarts in America wanted to go their own way but, you guys wisely stayed in the Commonwealth. We can sit in our rain washed foggy Island and reflect on our achievements and how much the English are admired around the globe....


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## Lucky13 (Apr 17, 2013)

....and drink tea with biscuits!


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## The Basket (Apr 17, 2013)

Yes Ollie Cromwell. Republican. Military Dictator and Kingslayer. God botherer.
If Cromwell had lived longer or given his rule to a more stable succession then a very different England we would be

Empire was the height of England. The height of power. Rule Brittania. God save the Queen.


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## parsifal (Apr 18, 2013)

The development of institutions and beliefs in equality and freedoms in different nations is intersting. I believe that the nations that enjoy the greatest freedoms and the greaterst beliefs in equality are those that derive their western heritage from the british model. But its hard to put your finger on the reasons why that might be.

In the case of the Americans, their believe in rights for all, that government is there to serve the people, that individual rights take precedence over the intersts of the state comes from their conflict with the british. The war of Independance, and the ACW were both crucibles that altered fundamentally how Americans think. The ACW is contentious, even today, but for outsiders at least it was a war that was fought (in the end) about the presevation of civil rights, the abhorrence of slavery as an institution, and the pre-eminence of the federal Government over States Rights, and (in contradiction to the issue about individual rights) all individual rights as well. The American road to liberty and equality was more violent than any of the other colonies, which might have something to do with the Americans affinity to gun ownership. 

Im not as sure about Canada, and new Zealand has its own story, but for Australia, our early white european development is more subtle and evolutionary. We were born from the American reejection of penal colonists....we are the people that nobody wanted. We survived literally by our ability to share suffering and hardship. nobody, not even the Americans, suffered as much or as mide spread as the early Australians. Flogged, worked to death, denied basic human rights, we should have descended to barbarism. Instead it burned into our very psyche the need for egalitarianism....that each man is judged on his actions, not the colour of his skin or his ancestry (with the one huge failing of how we deal with Aboriginals). We also learned that no matter what, and whatever the cost, you dont abandon your mates. We are a bit stubborn and one eyed on that score.

Of course, this is the self image, and the view we project to the world. the reality is always less lofty than the self perception.


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## stona (Apr 18, 2013)

The Basket said:


> Yes Ollie Cromwell. Republican. Military Dictator and Kingslayer. God botherer.



Which illustrates the contradictions in his character. His religious beliefs allowed him to become a regicide and republican. The latter not in any modern sense of the word.

A different England and Britain ,yes. Obviously no United Kingdom! It might have looked a lot politically like the United States 100 years or so later. It would have been very different religiously,despite the puritanism of the early settlers. There would have been no Catholic involvment in the English State. (There were two Catholic delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia). 

The empire would still have existed. It would have been a British rather than English project much sooner. The Scots wouldn't have waited until 1707 to sign up and jump on the bandwagon,which incidentally they now want to get off 

Cheers

Steve


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## Readie (Apr 19, 2013)

'we are the people that nobody wanted'
Michael, remember the Johnny Cash song 'A boy named Sue'?
The Crown always had your ultimate welfare in mind making you a penal colony...no one calls you' Sue' now do they?
On another tact...can you explain the film 'Picnic at Hanging Rock'?


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## Readie (Apr 22, 2013)

So, are we agreed that England is best?


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## Lucky13 (Apr 22, 2013)

Let me first check with my mates around here!


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## Marcel (Apr 23, 2013)

Readie said:


> So, are we agreed that England is best?


I would say England's best contribution to the world was Monty Python. And they were very smart to take a Dutch King.


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## herman1rg (Apr 23, 2013)

Arthur: Old Woman!

The peasant turns around, revealing that he is in fact a man.

Man:	Man!
Arthur: Man, sorry....	What knight lives in that castle over there?
Man:	I'm thirty-seven!
Arthur: (suprised) What?
Man:	I'm thirty-seven! I'm not old--
Arthur: Well I can't just call you "man"...
Man:	Well you could say "Dennis"--
Arthur: I didn't know you were called Dennis!
Man:	Well, you didn't bother to find out, did you?!
Arthur: I did say sorry about the "old woman", but from behind, you looked--
Man:	Well I object to your...you automatically treat me like an inferior!
Arthur: Well I *am* king...
Man:	Oh, king, eh, very nice. And 'ow'd you get that, eh?
(he reaches his destination and stops, dropping the cart)
By exploiting the workers! By 'angin' on to outdated imperialist dogma
which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society.
If there's ever going to be any progress,--
Woman:	Dennis! There's some lovely filth down 'ere!
(noticing Arthur) Oh! 'Ow'd'ja do?
Arthur: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, king of the Britons. Whose
castle is that?
Woman:	King of the 'oo?
Arthur: King of the Britons.
Woman:	'Oo are the Britons?
Arthur: Well we all are! We are all Britons! And I am your king.
Woman:	I didn't know we 'ad a king! I thought we were autonomous collective.
Man:	(mad) You're fooling yourself! We're living in a dictatorship! A
self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
Woman:	There you go, bringing class into it again...
Man:	That's what it's all about! If only people would--
Arthur: Please, *please*, good people, I am in haste! WHO lives in that
castle?
Woman:	No one lives there.
Arthur: Then who is your lord?
Woman:	We don't have a lord!
Arthur: (spurised) What??
Man:	I *told* you! We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune! We're taking
turns to act as a sort of executive-officer-for-the-week--
Arthur: (uninterested) Yes...
Man:	But all the decisions *of* that officer 'ave to be ratified at a
special bi-weekly meeting--
Arthur: (perturbed) Yes I see!
Man:	By a simple majority, in the case of purely internal affairs--
Arthur: (mad) Be quiet!
Man:	But by a two-thirds majority, in the case of more major--
Arthur: (very angry) BE QUIET!	I *order* you to be quiet!
Woman:	"Order", eh, 'oo does 'e think 'e is?
Arthur: I am your king!
Woman:	Well I didn't vote for you!
Arthur: You don't vote for kings!
Woman:	Well 'ow'd you become king then?
(holy music up)
Arthur: The Lady of the Lake-- her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite,
held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by
divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why
I am your king!
Man:	(laughingly) Listen: Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some... farcical
aquatic ceremony!
Arthur: (yelling) BE QUIET!
Man:	You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some
watery tart threw a sword at you!!
Arthur: (coming forward and grabbing the man) Shut *UP*!
Man:	I mean, if I went 'round, saying I was an emperor, just because some
moistened bink had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
Arthur: (throwing the man around) Shut up, will you, SHUT UP!
Man:	Aha! Now we see the violence inherent in the system!
Arthur: SHUT UP!
Man:	(yelling to all the other workers) Come and see the violence inherent
in the system!	HELP, HELP, I'M BEING REPRESSED!
Arthur: (letting go and walking away) Bloody PEASANT!
Man:	Oh, what a giveaway! Did'j'hear that, did'j'hear that, eh? That's
what I'm all about! Did you see 'im repressing me? You saw it,
didn't you?!


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## The Basket (Apr 23, 2013)

Dutch king....I think Cromwell would have turned in his grave....if he had one.


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## Clave (Apr 28, 2013)

Most countries are a mish-mash of one sort or another.

But of all the Northern Europeans, the English were by far the worst - bloody-minded, warlike, and stubborn... but enough of our good points...  this is about the Normans, and as there are no Normans left, we can't be under occupation.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 29, 2013)

I'm still here, then again, I'm across the border! 

Need to keep an eye on my ancestors investments, vikings and so on....


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## razor1uk (Apr 29, 2013)

The Normans in modern UK, only really exist in family surnames lineages now. 
Oliver went from Cavalry General, to becaming like Stalin as his power grew, luckely didn't he have some horrible disease by the end of his life?

My own anscestors came from all around the UK as far as I know, half of my family goes back to at least the middle 1600's, and are mostly English, but I have some Celtic from South Wales (Welsh Scots) the Scots of whom many generations before that, likely came over from Ireland. Some members of my family are researching and cross referencing a family tree together.

If anyone seen Braveheart (that largely fake historical recreation subversion of facts by Mel Gibson,) then apparently some of ancestors are all swinging by their necks right at the start.


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## razor1uk (Apr 29, 2013)

Dual post, please remove as I don't have that option available, cheers Mods.


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## yulzari (Apr 29, 2013)

Actually about 85% of the English genes are pre farming hunter gatherers who walked over when the last glacial advance retreated. The chaps in power come and go but the peasant always remains.


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## razor1uk (Apr 29, 2013)

True say that, one time back then, the countries which are now around the channel lower to middle North Sea areas, some of their popullations once lived in what arceaologists think of as 'Doggerland'. 

Which is the current center of which is now known as 'Doggerbank' which was before/during the Ice Age, but prior to the glacial melt water lake, that forced its inhabitants towards the countries their descendants are now generally in.
This lake eventually filled it to such a great level during the latter part of the 'Yonger Drias', that a great torrent that pulverised and tore open the 'dam' of soft clayish downs/moors land that joined UK to Normandy. 

This is a great gouged out gash that was largely formed in a single mass catasrophie, which became the todays 'English/European Channel'.
But thats getting off topic slightly, although it explains the same love of big 'proper' chips of UK Belgium as opposed to the skinnier fries/frittes.


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## yulzari (Apr 29, 2013)

But proper chips need mayonnaise not ketchup. But we digress further.


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## mikewint (Apr 29, 2013)

The earliest inhabitants of Britain for whom there is compelling evidence are bands of hunters living in Southern and Western England during the Hoxnian interglacial (about 380,000 to 400,000 BC).
(Some very recent excavations of stone tools on the East Anglian coastline suggest human presence as early as 700,000 years ago).
Just after the last Ice Age, Britain was still attached to mainland Europe. Ibero-Celts migrated north and colonized what are now the islands of Great Britain and Ireland. These Ibero-Celts (from modern day Spain and Portugal) were the first to inhabit what is now the British Isles. These earliest known Cerltic inhabitants are now called the "Beaker" people for the pottery they left behind.
When Caesar invaded England he found the country divided between the Picts in the north and the Britons in the south. Soon the Angles and Saxons from Germany began their invasion displacing both the Picts and Britions. King Aurthur was a Briton fighting the Anglo-Saxon invasion. The Picts and Britons eventually were defeated. The Anglo-Saxon King Harold was in his turn defeated by William, a Norman war leader, at the battle of Hastings


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## The Basket (Apr 29, 2013)

The Normans no longer exist but their history does. 

In 1066 Normans invade England. In 1944 English invade Normandy. Ain't revenge sweet.


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## razor1uk (Apr 29, 2013)

Those rare 700,000BCE excavations (any links by perchance?) seem remarkably short time wise after Lucy? (the oldest modern human remains (skull) from Africa) - to me, perhaps too short a time to spread from Africa... perhaps she was one of the last and so far the youngest of her 'early humans' to be found.

Not meaning to refute the politics and dogma of academia perce, but I sometimes think 'Out of Africa' is as a narrowminded view that is/has-been used to ensure promote racist and supremasist ideals historical 'events'. But until new/better knowledge frail fossil material is found, learned and academically accepted, it still stands - like the idea of 'Flat Earth' was.


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## Readie (Apr 30, 2013)

'But proper chips need mayonnaise not ketchup'.

Mayonnaise?
Ketchup?

All a bit continental for us old boy..

All proper chips need is salt and vinegar.

Standing on the cliffs of SE England on a clear day when you can see Europe is one of those must do things for all red blooded Englishmen.
The echoes of Merlins can be heard if you listen hard enough.
The Channel gives us sanctuary and protection from the follies of our neighbours.
The Chunnel is unfortunate...I was rather hoping that the French engineers would get theit wires crossed and keep tunneling in a huge semi circle emerging triumphant in Belgium.
We did our best with delays and strikes hahahaha.
Cheers
John


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