# P38 crash vid clip - to show or not?



## Royzee617 (Sep 7, 2005)

I have just found an old VHS tape with a TV news item on the IWM Duxford P38 crash from 96. 

Now, the question is do I make a clip and post it here?

It includes amateur footage of the P38 auguring in.

You know my feelings on this subject hence my enquiry before going ahead with making it.


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## Royzee617 (Sep 10, 2005)

Here is the video. I leave it up to you to decide whether to watch it or not. 

It is a UK local TV report which includes amateur footage of the actual crash.

It pays tribute to a great flyer, Hoof Proudfoot, who will always be missed in the warbird fraternity and audience.

I will also post my video clips of when I saw the P38 arrive some months previous. This was the only time I had ever seen this machine aloft. It was a bad time for plane losses - must have been around then that we lost the UK's Mossie.


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## me262 (Sep 10, 2005)

thanks for the video


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## me262 (Sep 10, 2005)

it is a shame that we are loosing those irreplassable planes, not to mention the pilot,


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## Royzee617 (Sep 10, 2005)

I wholeheartedly agree - at least this was a solo occasion - the Mossie was obviously double tragedy likewise the Firefly at Duxford (or was that a trio?).


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## evangilder (Sep 10, 2005)

Hmmm, tragic. Did the inquiry ever determine what happened?


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 10, 2005)

Poor guy. 
At least it's a good thing he didn't take out anyone on the ground, but what a shame anyway.


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## me262 (Sep 10, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> Poor guy.
> At least it's a good thing he didn't take out anyone on the ground, but what a shame anyway.



yeap. but managed to damage others planes , you can see some of them very damaged


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## plan_D (Sep 11, 2005)

Tragic. I suppose you have to expect it to some extent with these ageing aircraft. Even when maintained to perfection, they're old and without replacing every little bit with something new it's going to feel the effects.


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## evangilder (Sep 11, 2005)

Even brand new parts occasionally fail too. The only way to make sure they stay intact is to keep them on the ground. But that would suck. The sound of the engines and to see them soar by is an experience.


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## Royzee617 (Sep 13, 2005)

While I was near the flightline there was quite a lot of activity - to my utter delight in the distance I could make out a pair of aircraft. At first all I could see was that one was a single engine and one could have been a twin-engine plane. A bit closer and I held my breath. Could it be? Could it really be the P38? A P38 and a Mustang? A bit closer and my hopes were confirmed.... two of Duxford's most exciting residents!

Now you can see what I saw ten years ago.

This is part one where the pair come in for a run and break. Then while the P38 is in the circuit the P51 does a nice aerobatic routine. Poor old me, didn't know what to point the camera at (again!). So I got the P51 zooming up and down while the P38 sneaked in and then had to swop subjects.

In a later clip you will see them trundling the P38 back to the hangar. Dunno why this one was not left out on the flightline alongside the P51 and Spits etc.


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## Gnomey (Sep 13, 2005)

Awesome video Roy!


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 13, 2005)

That was an awesome display by the P-51!


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## Royzee617 (Sep 13, 2005)

The next clip shows the planes taxi-ing in. A bit higher res but there is still too much 'chopiness' around the movement which is a pain. Might upload a different version, maybe even the mpg but it will be a biggie!


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## Gnomey (Sep 13, 2005)

Nice video Roy. Post the mpg it will be worth it.


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## Royzee617 (Sep 13, 2005)

Last one for the night as I am tired and need my zeds.

Here we have the mighty P51 coming across the grass to join the warbird rank. Lovely sound!

Thought I would be generous with several vids tonite as Discovery Wings is worse than usual this week. So many repeats.... and now they are getting way beyond peripheral... since when did trains have 'wings'? Gawd, there are soooooo many plane vids around and they stuff the schedule with borrowings from the History Channel or some such.

Might put some non-plane vids up tomorrow night. Some nice crashes from F1 etc. a clip I got of Foo Fighters covering CCR's Born on the Bayou for the Hurricane Charity gig. Or maybe one of our local coevrs bands cranking out some Led Zep, AC-DC, Motorhead etc I enjoyed on Sunday. So much to show, so little time to upload.


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## Gnomey (Sep 13, 2005)

Another good video Roy, keep 'em coming!


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## Royzee617 (Sep 14, 2005)

Here is a chunkier version of the aerobatic routine - 35 megs.

Will later post an intermediate one for comparison.


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## Gnomey (Sep 14, 2005)

Nice Roy, that was worth the 35MB download.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 14, 2005)

Yes it was.... Excellent clips...


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## Royzee617 (Sep 14, 2005)

Thanks! See also my vids in Off Topic...

Right, here is the final section - the P38 taxi / tow. Also includes P47 and other mean machines on the flight line. Kicks off with the lovely Lizzie - the resident Lysander. Then the P47 taxis in. The view spins right to get the P38 coming through the barrier courtesy of an IWM tow tractor. Then back left for the wind down of the P47.... back behind me to track the P38 on its way to bed. Finally, the Lizzie comes back... lovely sound of the Mercure engine.

Again, a smaller (8 megs) version followed by the larger one (the 50 megs one would not work - sorry¬).


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## Royzee617 (Sep 17, 2005)

This is the middle clip so to speak showing the P51 taxi in and the people fussing around the P38 meanwhile the P47 returns.


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## Royzee617 (Oct 30, 2005)

Further to the P38 crash. I was watching one of those streaming vids yesterday about the P38. It said the pilot should not consider inverted flight. The P38 accelerates very rapidly when going downhill too. So you can imagine that what you can do in, say, an F4U, you cannot (must not) do in a Lightning. Seldom do you see any rolling manoeuvres in twin engine warbirds esp at low level. I recall wingovers in the Mossie display but never a barrel roll.

By the way for those of you who get Sky Sports look out for a new prog on the sport of air combat. Aerobatic planes pitted one to one etc. It is on again this afternoon I think (Sunday 30th Oct).


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## Royzee617 (Oct 31, 2005)

I think that all in all the P38 was one of the first of a new breed of fighting machines. Especially when you consider the mods it was given with radar pods etc and a second crewman. Lived up more to 'pursuit' or 'interceptor' rather than pure dogfighter like its single engine companions, P51 etc. I am thinking of the mission to intercept Yamamoto etc. Odd how it was so much more successful than other heavily armed machines like the Bf110 but then that was a dubious concept. Maybe if they had made that a single seater?!


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## Tjen il-vec (Nov 4, 2005)

Hello dear fellow pistonengined plane lovers,

Im new here and coming from Holland. The reason I post this reply is because I was there at the time this magnificant P-38 crashed right in front of me. 

What happend was that I went to airdisplays in Holland but those are just poor displays per airplane with sometimes up to 10 minutes breaks in between displays of various models. So me and a good friend decided to visit the IWM in Duxford for the first time ever to rerally seek some action but obviously we were not careful enough what we wished for  

The first day (sat 13 july 1996) it started with an awsome verbal announcement of the 2 Bearcats with the Tigercat leading these two awesome fighters. Never experienced so much action before at an air display according to WW2 fighters (really felt the adrenaline kick in!  ). 

But this came to an absolute halt on the second day around 3 o'clock in the afternoon when the P38 presented a fantastic display until that moment when it seemed to attempt a second roll what I found a bit strange due to the fact that it came level out of the first roll but I didn't have enough time to give that a thought as it burst into flames right i front of us   (We were standing of the left corner of the field)

I don't now what my friend felt but I was absolutely transfixed  It felt like such an overwhelming dissapointment and almost a feeling of guilt when someone dies entertaining YOU!  

I don't have any footage taken from this accident first of all because we were about to leave to be able to get the ferry on time to get back to Holland but second of all, I found it a bit inappropiate to video the aftermath of an accident like that. 

The reason I was searchin the internet for a footage of this accident I cannot say really but the fact I,ve seen it up close left me with the strange urge to see it again in a different context i guess.... no explanation really  


Kind regards,

Etienne (Tjen il-vec)

P.S.

My apologies for the poor English grammar here and there....


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 4, 2005)

Welcome Tjen. I can imagine it was quite a shock to everyone to see the plane crash right in front of them. There's no need to explain the urge to see the crash again. A lot of people have a sort of morbid curiosity about things like that, and I don't think it necessarily makes a person sick or anything. I can't really explain it either. Our own fear maybe, and a desire to understand? I dunno.


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## Tjen il-vec (Nov 4, 2005)

Thanks for the welcome  

I know it seems for anyone here that I just 'barged' in so my apologies for that. But the experience I had with the crash of Hoof Proudfoot bares with me ever since. Not that I'm traumatised in any way but I feel for those who look after the fact to keep these warbirds in the air as a labour of love. And i'ts hard enough nowadays to keep heads above water according to these activities. And they don't need ones to tell them that these planes ought to be grounded forever based on these accidents... 

That was the first plane that had this very unfortunate ending of its carreer in 23 years of airdisplays on Duxford. 

Later that yeat (or the next) Kermit Weeks Mosquito crashed killing 2  and of course the 'Black six' and the FireFly last year.... (and a couple more outside the UK)

Keeps me wondering how long can they prolong these awesome airdisplays until somebody steps up to alter the leglislation upon the airshows 'killing' the spectacular aspects of these shows  

.... that's another discussion I really don't want to start!  


Regards,

Tjen


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 4, 2005)

Tjen il-vec said:


> I know it seems for anyone here that I just 'barged' in so my apologies for that.


No worries. I did the same thing when I first got here. 
I was never big on introductions.

I've seen discussions concerning the flying future of old war birds springing up on various forums. It _is_ a major concern I agree, as the old birds grow older and become more difficult to maintain in flying condition. I'd hate to see every one of them grounded for good though. They still belong in the air, but perhaps the aerobatic routines could be toned down a notch or two.


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## Gnomey (Nov 4, 2005)

and look where it got you... 

Welcome Tjen.


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## trackend (Nov 4, 2005)

HI Tjen

Some good info on the Duxford crash and understandable feelings.
I think sometimes it is forgotten that many designs of these planes is 60 odd years old and as such they should be treat with a bit of tenderness. Obviously lots of these aircraft have over the years had nearly all there components replaced in order to maintain there air worthiness but as with all high performance aircraft then as now they where on the cutting edge of technology and as such not the safest of aircraft to fly.


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## Tjen il-vec (Nov 4, 2005)

Well, I don't really think anything would change according to the condition these aircraft are in but given the fact that rules are getting tighter and tighter over the years I think that is the major bottleneck in keeping these aircraft in flying condition. 

In other words, the level it must reach to get or maintain airworthiness is getting higher step by step.

What I agree on is that they could reconsider the aerobatics with certain version fighters. It has been clearly emphasized by test pilots in WW2 which carried out flight tests on different (new) fighters that clearly pointed out, particularly for the P38's, to avoid aerobatics at low altitude at all times.

I'm convinced such recommendations exist for other WW2 fighters as well.

But ok, I have to admit to see a MKXIV doing a high speed pass pulling up into a half loop, roll level and make a low (very low high speed) pass over the field gives me an feeling better that S*X! believe me.... 

So, I don't have the answer too like I have difficulties nót being biased (don't really now how to write it down) with the love for these machines  


Regards,

Tjen


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## Royzee617 (Nov 4, 2005)

Before posting my TV P38 video here I did a lot of thinking. Shall I put it up or not? Glad I did in a way. The recent postings seem to confim it.

On the subject of should we or should we not display warbirds in their element the jury remains out. Whatever people think about it at least no one on the ground gets hurt. Even though the ticket warns you of danger I am not sure where we stand on insurance. The business with Sally B and her enormous insurance may be the deciding factor rather than mechanical soundness or pilot skill. Already the number of airshows has fallen thanks in part to the organisers not being able to cover the insurance for the event.

Thankfully warbird crashes at displays are fairly infrequent and fatalties even rarer. In the case of the P38 personally I have a feeling that this type of plane was not built for doing low-level stuff. The mystery is why someone with HP's knowledge and experience would have done this. Also, I thought all routines were vetted before the show. If so why did they not exclude such manoeuvres in the P38? Likely we will never know.

They have a responsibility to themselves and their machines these pilots. And also to the audience. Yes, we want to see the planes perform but maybe they should tone down the displays a bit. After all the BBMF has a good record for safety.


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## Tjen il-vec (Nov 6, 2005)

> The business with Sally B and her enormous insurance may be the deciding factor rather than mechanical soundness or pilot skill.



Agree!!!



> The mystery is why someone with HP's knowledge and experience would have done this.



What keeps bothering me is that there may be a real possibility that Hoof had a physical emergency... I'm pretty convinced that that may be the most obvious explanation for what happened that moment but then again.... indeed we'll never know.....



> After all the BBMF has a good record for safety.



I've seen BBMF do it's superb job several times both in the UK and Holland. When they announce that BBMF will participate in an airshow in Holland than I'm sure that action is guaranteed!  Maybe they don't do those thrill seeking maneuvers like the P-51's and Spit's from the OFMC or Shuttleworth but to see a Lanc with a MKV and a MKXIX is an experience you'll never forget.

....and to see my father get watering eyes when the BBMF do their stuff says it all! ...



By the way.... I found this site just by surfing on the net looking for any info on the P-38 accident ans I would like to take this opportunity to tell you all that this site and its forum is absolutely amazing  ! 


Regards,

Tjen il-Vec


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## Royzee617 (Nov 6, 2005)

Cheers! Glad the search engines brought you to this site... just like they did me... tell your friends!

P38 in flight emergency? I don't know. But he could be trying to correct a roll due a cable snapping or some other control surface malfunction I suppose. 

The p38 is a tough plane so it should withstand looping and barrel rolls but maybe not at low altitude. 

I feel so sad about the loss of these fine planes and fine pilots. The list is too long... one of my fond memories of Duxford was coming back from North Weald's airshow and seeing Stefan Karwowski aerobatting the Bearcat over the IWM. I saw him being interviewed by Raymond Baxter at Biggin Hill only a few years before. Then a few years later he was gone, lost in some accident in Australia I think. 

And of course the remarkably youthful Mark Hanna... what a loss.

Personally I understand some of what you must be going through. I saw a jet crash at an airshow near Coventry in the late 80s. This Meteor flew over the crowd but before it could return and start its display it simply dropped its right wing and went straight in. No aerobatics, no warning. Just straight in. This was outside the airfield and I think there was only one aircrew. The show went on as if nothing happened. Weird.

Talking of Meteors, luckily I was at Mildenhall the day before the infamous Vintage Pair crash. We lost four guys that time. It does tend to affect your wanting to attend airshows but I would still go.


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## Tjen il-vec (Nov 7, 2005)

> It does tend to affect your wanting to attend airshows but I would still go.



Yep, me too for sure. I'm pretty sure that the last thing accident involved airmen that unfortunately left their lives on the field want is for us to stop visiting airshows. 

I'd like to make a profound remark about this but I do not know what. But I know what I feel. 

Every time I hear about a lost plane including its pilot really hurts me. 

The first time I was confronted with such a disappointment was when I was watching the Ramstein airshow live on TV back in, what was it, 1986? when this horrific accident occurred with the Frecce-team. 



> And of course the remarkably youthful Mark Hanna... what a loss.



Yes I know... I followed the development of his documentary on the major overhaul on the MH434 MKIX Spitfire and his 'pat ob the back' from Ray with his first flight on the Spit.... 

...than the Buchonflight  

Very, very sad story... 

You know; about keep attending airshows... were 'put up' if you like with the unconditional love for these machines and the great admiration for their pilots for ever. That accounts for the organizers, flight crew, airmen as well. That is what keep things going! 


Regards,

Tjen


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## Royzee617 (Nov 7, 2005)

I agree. It's what they would all want. Support their passion.

Ironic that the 'Messerschmitt 109' should claim another RAF (well, ex-RAF) fighter jock years after the last poor guy. Great plane but vicious to the pilot.


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## Tjen il-vec (Nov 8, 2005)

Well, I would like to tell you that I had a nice and interesting conversation with you Lt. general 8) 

Its pretty obvious we pretty much share the same views I think.

I'll meet you in another thread for sure given the fact there is a lot to share with one another according to thoughts, views and information!


8)


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## Royzee617 (Nov 8, 2005)

OK
BTW I used to work for a Dutch company - Elsevier. Then they 'downsized' me - after 7 years of loyal service! And I still write for their crummy magazines...


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## Tjen il-vec (Nov 10, 2005)

I know Elsevier but only from the stoch exchange or as a publisher of buzinessmagazines. 

I'm sorry to hear that they decided to downsize you. I'm a bit worried about the economy today as well. I'm currenly involved with storagefacilities for ICT with the ministry of defence but only til december. I drawed my conclusions based on the policies they put upon emloyees within my company so I'll start off with a in a new function as a Senior Batch Operator starting 1st of december. That'll give me the challenge I,ve been searching for a long time.

Tjen il-Vec


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## Royzee617 (Nov 10, 2005)

Best of luck to you!

Getting out of Elsevier's open plan offices with endless meetings and bureaucratic crap was doing my head in anyway. So they were doing me a favour in a way. Would never go back to the office life now.


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## Tjen il-vec (Nov 11, 2005)

> endless meetings and bureaucratic crap



EXACTLY!! In Holland we call that "oneindig geneuzel" 

THAT'S one of the main reasons to leave my current function for someone else to fill who's feeling the urge to contribute to this crap and try my luck elsewhere  

Tjen

8)


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## Royzee617 (Nov 11, 2005)

Good phrase! Wishing you all the best.


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## Tjen il-vec (Nov 14, 2005)

Royzee617 said:


> Good phrase! Wishing you all the best.



Same to you my friend


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