# Grenades and helmets....



## Lucky13 (Aug 31, 2008)

1. Which grenade packed the biggest punch?
2. Which helmet offered the best protection?

Short and sweet, eh?


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## B-17engineer (Sep 1, 2008)

I want to say the Patato Masher packed the biggest punch..

Then the American Helmet gave the Most protection...I went to an airshow and bought one....it is a very thick and heavy duty helmet....especially with the liner which is a hard plastic helmet on the inside of the big helmet


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## evangilder (Sep 1, 2008)

I think the US M1 "Steel Pot" helmet was a good helmet, but I think the German Steel Helmet was good as well. Modern America kevlar helmets have a look similar to the German steel design of WWII, so they must have been doing something right.

While looking at that kind of thing recently, I cam across a dealer of militaria from the Civil War (US) to Vietnam. Neat stuff here:
Time Traveler - Quality Authentic Historical Militaria


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## B-17engineer (Sep 1, 2008)

Wasn't the German helmet so easy to manufacture where as the British helmets took a long time to make?


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## parsifal (Sep 5, 2008)

Of the four grenades that I know the most about, (the british Mills Bomb, the german M-24 "Potato Masher", the US M-61 and the US M-67), there is very little to choose from in terms of their lethality. All are rated as having a kill zone of 5 metres, and an injusry radious of between 10 and 20 metres though they are capable of hurting someone out to about 50 metres.

The M-24 is no more lethal than the US grenades, but they are much bulkier, and somewhat clumsy in operation. Thei big advantages were their relative accuracy and range. The stick seemed to give the germans the ability to "lob" grenades with greater accuracy than the allied "egg" grenades, and they were able to throw grenades about 25 metres ofr so, whereas the US and british types could only be thrown about 12-15 metres, under combat conditions. on the other hand, the average allied soldier could carry roughly twice as many grenades as the germans soldier because the M-24 was very bulky and space consuming.


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## TenGunTerror (Jun 25, 2009)

I thought it was the German helmet because the shape helped deflect bullets...


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 25, 2009)

The Geballte Ladung which was basically a number of heads from potato masher wired around one with the handle still on is the strongest one I know about.







I'd probably have to go with the German Helmet as it seemed to cover more of the head. I assumed they were all metal and about the same thickness, but I really have no idea.


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## GrauGeist (Jun 25, 2009)

TenGunTerror said:


> I thought it was the German helmet because the shape helped deflect bullets...


Most helmets, including the U.S. M1 helmet, weren't able to stop a bullet, although there were a few instances where they did.

The German helmet did offer better protection against shrapnel in the neck and temple areas so it's no surprise that it's made a come-back in recent years.


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## Soren (Jun 26, 2009)

There was a report on both helmets posted on the forum a few years ago. It was a US test of both helmets, and the German helmet was found to be significantly superior, featuring better steel quality and protection against shrapnel. But as GrauGeist rightly points out, both helmets were unlikely to stop even a pistol round up close.

As for the grenades. Well I dunno, they all have their advantages. The British US grenades are what we call defensive grenades, or frag grenades, while the German grenade is an offensive concussion grenade. The great thing about the German Soviet design was that you could quickly turn them from offensive into defensive grenades by putting on the fragmentation sleeves which were supplied to put over the top of the explosive container. And then there was the double throwing range, which in many situations can prove to very very useful. The disadvantage was the size. But the egg grenade was developed as-well to solve that issue.


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## Juha (Jun 26, 2009)

I vote for German helmet, it offered probably the best protection. Having carried one, or a Finnish version of it, in 11 months during my military service, I can say that it sits comfortably on one's head.
Handgrenades, in offensive German Potato smasher was probably best. In defensive, maybe I would take a British/US one but difference was not a big one. And its surprisingly easy to hit a target with even a egg type hand granate.

Juha


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## Amsel (Jun 26, 2009)

I like the German helmet. It was ahead of the others. I have to go with the US grenade though. It was simply more lethal then the potato masher. The US grenade held more explosives and was much more reliable.


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## Colin1 (Jun 26, 2009)

vikingBerserker said:


> The Geballte Ladung which was basically a number of heads from potato masher wired around one with the handle still on is the strongest one I know about.


How heavy was that and how far did you have to throw it in order to avoid hurting your troops as well?


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## Juha (Jun 26, 2009)

Hello Colin
Finns developed a SATCHEL CHARGE ("Kasapanos" in Finnish) in 1936, it was designed to use as A/T weapon, but was commonly used also against log and earth bunkers etc. How far one could toss one, maybe 8-10m. The tosser could expect to loss his hearing for a while. I’d not delve its long term effects on one’s hearing. You can see a photo of one here: Kasapanos ? Wikipedia
It is the big one, you can see also the Potato smasher next to it.

Juha


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## Catch22 (Jun 26, 2009)

I'd say for helmets, the German one. It gives the best all around protection and it covers the neck. I cannot comment on grenades though, as I don't know much about them.


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## Soren (Jun 26, 2009)

Amsel said:


> I like the German helmet. It was ahead of the others. I have to go with the US grenade though. It was simply more lethal then the potato masher. The US grenade held more explosives and was much more reliable.



The Stielhandgranate actually packed a larger explosive charge than both the US pineapple British Mills grenades. And adding the fragmentation sleeve gave it a slightly larger lethal shrapnel range than both.


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## Junkers88A1 (Jun 26, 2009)

to B-17 engineer.. the english helmat has it distinctiv look because the english did not know how to stretch the steel further without making it thinner and thinner the further you stretched the "headpit" and that would make it pretty useless if it was as thin as it woudl have been on top with the technic used by the english and if they had made it as deep as the german ( couldent stop a finger poking thru it ), but the germans had found a way to stretch the steel without thinning it and make it the same thickness all over even when they made it as deep as they did ( dont ask me how..i saw a long tv-program about just this issue on discovery and how they made it..but i dont remeber how he germans did it..pretty advanced and still used today when making steelparts with deep bowls. the english helmet was MUCH faster to produce than the german helmet

about the grenades..i really dont know..i just love the "bang"  but the potatomasher from the germans was easier to throw further


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## Amsel (Jun 26, 2009)

Soren said:


> The Stielhandgranate actually packed a larger explosive charge than both the US pineapple British Mills grenades. And adding the fragmentation sleeve gave it a slightly larger lethal shrapnel range than both.


I have read in several places that the potato masher's were not as lethal and sometimes faulty according to some GI's in Normandy. One author attributed it to a smaller explosive charge and the use of slave labor in the German armaments industry. I will read more about it though because it is interesting and the slave labor issue probably needs a thread of its own.


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## Messy1 (Jun 26, 2009)

Amsel, I am reading Citizen Soldiers by Ambrose, and several GI's are quoted that the potato mashers were not as powerful as the pineapple. I do not know the specifics as far ar weight, and amount of powder used in either. Specific info would be great to find. Anyone have it?


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 26, 2009)

Colin1 said:


> How heavy was that and how far did you have to throw it in order to avoid hurting your troops as well?



I really could not say or find it. THe only real data I could find was it could blow the tracks off a tank or penetrate up to 60mm of armour. _ WWII Infantry Anti-Tank Tactics_


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## GrauGeist (Jun 26, 2009)

Amsel said:


> I have read in several places that the potato masher's were not as lethal and sometimes faulty according to some GI's in Normandy. One author attributed it to a smaller explosive charge and the use of slave labor in the German armaments industry. I will read more about it though because it is interesting and the slave labor issue probably needs a thread of its own.


I agree about the slave labor thread idea, the laborers risked thier lives to do what they could to fight the Germans. For example, I've read info on how they urinated on the guidance systems on the V1 rockets during assembly, which caused them to fly off course.

You would think that the Nazi leadership would have learned from the Romans about slave labor.


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## Soren (Jun 27, 2009)

Amsel,

The Stielhandgranate was primarily used as an offensive grenade, without the fragmentation sleeve, relying on the concussion effect to kill or subdue the enemy and not so much shrapnel. But since this was its' primary function it also meant that the explosive charge needed to be larger than in a defensive grenade in order for it to be effective. However the Germans simply supplied a thick metal sleeve to be put around the explosive container turning the offensive grenade into an even more lethal defensive grenade. (The British had a similar design, the No.69 offensive grenade, also supplied with a fragmentation sleeve if the situation demanded it)

Mostly the Stielhandgranate was used without the fragmentation sleeve, which would've made it less lethal than a defensive frag grenade, explaining what you've read.

As for the explosive charge:

Soviet RGD33: *80 gram*
US Mk.II: *57 gram *
German Stiel. Hdgr.43: *168 gram* 
British Mills Bomb: *71 gram *
German Ei.Hdgr.39: *112 gram*


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## Lucky13 (Jun 27, 2009)

That's some differences Soren!


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## Soren (Jun 27, 2009)

Yeah, the Stiel. Hdgr. relied almost purely on the concussion effect to either kill or stun the enemy. If you were within 3 meters of one exploding you'd be in VERY bad shape from the blast alone, nevermind the shrapnel. However hitting the dirt will improve your chances drastically! And that goes against ALL types of handgrenades. You can survive being no more than 1.5 meters away if hit the dirt in time. Needless to say you'd be out cold for a few min though from the concussion of the grenade itself.

Put a fragmentation sleeve on the Mk43 and you have yourself a VERY potent handgrenade! Total overkill in most situations.


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## Messy1 (Jun 27, 2009)

Great stats on the explosive charge Soren, hard to argue against that.


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## Amsel (Jun 27, 2009)

Messy1 said:


> Great stats on the explosive charge Soren, hard to argue against that.



Except for that a smaller charge does not necessarily mean a less lethal blast. The MK2 was tightly packed causing a stronger explosion then the potato masher. You can use a smaller charge if the grenade is made correctly to achieve the same or better results. American GI's learned to carry both the Mk2 as well as the potato masher, due to the longer distance it could be thrown, and the Mk2 for clearing bunkers and pill boxes.


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## Soren (Jun 28, 2009)

With 168 grams of explosives vs the 57 grams of the Mk2 grenade, the Stiel.Hdgr.43 has a stronger blast no questions asked. The lethality is another thing however and depends on how much shrapnel the grenade generates, and without the fragmentation sleeve the Stiel.Hdgr. isn't as lethal as the Mk.2, but with it the Stiel.Hdgr.43 is more lethal than both the US Mk.2 and the British Mills Bomb. The problem was the bigger size of the Stiel.Hdgr. To solve this the Germans issued the Ei.Hdgr.39, which packed a smaller but still relatively big charge of 112 grams of high explosives.


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## renrich (Jul 8, 2009)

I believe the German helmet was a better design since the new US hemet seems to be about the same shape. Not sure it would hold as much water for shaving as the US helmet did, though. The US helmet, though, because the steel pot fit over the plastic helmet liner which had the webbing to fit over the head, had a bad habit of falling off unless the chin strap was securely fastened. When guys would pass out from heat exhaustion you could hear their steel pots rolling down the road on the hills at Fort Knox.


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