# German Guncam footage



## Anonymous (Nov 30, 2004)

22MB MPEG movie! I suggest you save it to disk and then view it.

Enjoy!

=S=

Lunatic


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 30, 2004)

Ill get that saturday morning 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 1, 2004)

me too................


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 1, 2004)

lanc, on dial up thatll take rather longer than a couple of hours...it takes me about an hour and a half for a 4 meg file, im gussing thats gonna take me about 6-7hours...and its well established your connection is slower than mine...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 3, 2004)

what's your connection speed??


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 3, 2004)

56kbps...but all of GrG's pics take years to load for you and about 2 secs for me...


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

Ok here we go, 6 and a half hours of download time....


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## Yeomanz (Dec 4, 2004)

the link dont work i cant download it


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 4, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> Ok here we go, 6 and a half hours of download time....


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

It was at 58% after 1hr 13mins...then it stopped  

Yeo, try right clicking the download button and clicking "Save Target As" 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 4, 2004)

i'm connected at 115.2Kbps..............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

You sure?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 4, 2004)

yup.............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

Then why do you always complain about GrG's pics if you have twice my connection speed...?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 4, 2004)

because they never load.............


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## Anonymous (Dec 4, 2004)

Have any of you been able to download this file successfully?

=S=

Lunatic


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## Medvedya (Dec 4, 2004)

Yes. I've looked at it. Desperate stuff wasn't it?


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## Anonymous (Dec 4, 2004)

Medvedya said:


> Yes. I've looked at it. Desperate stuff wasn't it?



It is very interesting to watch.

I was just wanting to know if there'd been any successful downloads, since several (apparently on dialup) have had failures near the end of the download.

Thanks,

Lunatic


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## Medvedya (Dec 4, 2004)

Ran fine on my machine - but I've got broadband.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 4, 2004)

Got it, it took me one minute, two seconds...


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 4, 2004)

Good footage!


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> Got it, it took me one minute, two seconds...



Sure, go ahead and rub it in


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 5, 2004)

did you get it in the end CC??


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

No it stopped downloading 58% of the way through - apparently lots of people on dial-up are experiencing that. 
Its a shame cos id loved to have seen that, and I could have put in on cd for you to save the downloading.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 5, 2004)

well i figure i'd try it with my faster dial up, 3% complete, go me!!


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

although my thing said it'd take 6 hours, it was halfway after about an hour


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 5, 2004)

6%, it says i have 1 hr 59 mins left...............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

Cool 8)

I just watched the part of it that managed to download, it has lightnings on it!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You will see the dominace of them turning away from the 190's 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 5, 2004)

not if i rip my eyes out first...................


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

If you did it might help with your taste in style - you might see how ugly the Lancaseter REALLY is, for example


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 5, 2004)

wow i downloaded it and it's amazing, not sure i should give you a copy after that though.....................


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

Sure, it really downloaded in 20 mins....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 5, 2004)

actually it did, it's only a 4.8MB file...........


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

its a 22MB file...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 5, 2004)

ok so maybe it didn't, going from what you've told me on MSN.........


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

Hehe...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 5, 2004)

you laugh at me because i'm different, i luagh at you because you're the same..................


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

No I laugh because im senile


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 5, 2004)

fair point.................


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

Of course it is, I made it


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 5, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> GermansRGeniuses said:
> 
> 
> > Got it, it took me one minute, two seconds...
> ...





That was the point...


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

I shoulda known...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 6, 2004)

i did it in around 2 hours, got it all though, then CC has the cheek to say he doesn't want a copy..........


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 6, 2004)

Hehe...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 7, 2004)

he doesn't know what he's missing.............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 7, 2004)

Its nothing special, you see one clip you've seen em all...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 8, 2004)

not really, they're all different in some way............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 8, 2004)

Its basically the same format all the way through though


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## BlackWolf3945 (Dec 8, 2004)

Here's another...

There may be some dupes in here but I dunno fersher. If you have a chance, pick up some of the DVD's from this outfit... it's worth the mula...


Fade to Black...


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 8, 2004)

I thought the Bf-110-G2 shooting up the B-17 was something else to watch! 
The poor ball turret gunner!


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## Erich (Dec 18, 2004)

a couple of notes as I own much of the first cine films shown.

The 110G-2 that slowly creeps up on the rear of the B-17 is armed with 4 mg 17's and two lower 20mm's in the lower nose. I can tell you for a fact if it had been a latter G-2 with all 20mm's or two 30mms and two lower 20mm's the whole tail of the B-17 would have been blown off and the engine blown off.

Much of the Fw 190A-8 footage on the rear of the B-24's in silver is done by Sturm Fw's. Notice the one hit to the left wing of the Lib that catches on an immediate fire from the Minen round

E ~


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## Anonymous (Dec 18, 2004)

Erich said:


> a couple of notes as I own much of the first cine films shown.
> 
> The 110G-2 that slowly creeps up on the rear of the B-17 is armed with 4 mg 17's and two lower 20mm's in the lower nose. I can tell you for a fact if it had been a latter G-2 with all 20mm's or two 30mms and two lower 20mm's the whole tail of the B-17 would have been blown off and the engine blown off.
> 
> ...



I would suspect that was one of the hydrostatic fused incendiary rounds. Of course there is no way to know.

=S=

Lunatic


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 18, 2004)

Erich said:


> a couple of notes as I own much of the first cine films shown.
> 
> The 110G-2 that slowly creeps up on the rear of the B-17 is armed with 4 mg 17's and two lower 20mm's in the lower nose. I can tell you for a fact if it had been a latter G-2 with all 20mm's or two 30mms and two lower 20mm's the whole tail of the B-17 would have been blown off and the engine blown off.
> 
> ...



thanks for the info, could you please explain what the Minen round was please??


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## Erich (Dec 18, 2004)

hmmmmmmm thought I explained this in heavy detail earlier. 2cm and 3cm HEI had the effect when hitting the aluminum skin of an a/c , would cause an immediate fire, so fuel tanks were likely susceptible but any place along the fuselage and in the interior would cause such havoc that the bomber would go down. engines on one side of the wing were the likely target after the rear gunner was put out of commision. If the Fw 190 had 13mm's they were used against the tail postion and then closing in would use the 2cm and finally the 3cm.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 18, 2004)

thanks


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## Erich (Dec 18, 2004)

note the last cine film and the last acct :

A Bf 110G-2 armed with the heavy 37mm cannon. you can see the single tracers going out to that B-24 in the distance. Note if these had been 2cm or 3cm weapons how much closer the Bf 110G-2 would have to be to the bomber. And although we are only seeing one gun cam film there are other Bf 110G-2's attacking with the Br 21 rockets. Note the large black puffs towards the B-24's


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 18, 2004)

thanks for the info again there, much of the footage in the second one is in the first.................


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## Anonymous (Dec 19, 2004)

Erich said:


> hmmmmmmm thought I explained this in heavy detail earlier. 2cm and 3cm HEI had the effect when hitting the aluminum skin of an a/c , would cause an immediate fire, so fuel tanks were likely susceptible but any place along the fuselage and in the interior would cause such havoc that the bomber would go down. engines on one side of the wing were the likely target after the rear gunner was put out of commision. If the Fw 190 had 13mm's they were used against the tail postion and then closing in would use the 2cm and finally the 3cm.



Hmmm.....

The _Minengeschoss_ rounds were constructed using a stamped casing, rather than boring out a ball round as was done for normal HE and HEI ammo. This meant there was more room for high explosives and incendiary payload. The Mine and API MG151/20 rounds are shown and described below:



> "Minensprenggranate mit Zerleger" (HEI-SD) mine shell, m=92,0g, l=82,9mm, 18g high explosive, Vo=785m/s, ol=146,1mm, 14,8g Nz.R.P. (1,3x1,45/0,2) propellant, electrical primer "J", headstamp: exw | 8 | 45 , yellow projectile with green band below fuze, black markings: M El exw 91 45 Mv exw 263/44 ,
> 
> "Panzerbrandgranate Phosphor ohne Zerleger" (API) Phosphorous shell, m=115g, l=80,0mm, 3,6g White Phosphorous in sealed Aluminum container, Vo=720m/s, ol=145,5mm, 14,8g Nz.R.P. (1,3x1,45/0,2) propellant, percussion primer, headstamp: wg | 593 | 44 , black bullet with blue band above bourolet, white
> markings: Ph edq 335/44, stamped in markings: eel 147/44
> http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Base/1852/Cutaways.html



This compares, for example, with the Hispano 20mm HEI round which weighed about 129.6 grams and carried an 11.3 gram explosive payload. The 30mm _Minengeschoss_ rounds carried 75-80 grams (depending on version) of explosive charge.

Other than having a big bang, there was nothing special about these rounds. A variety of fuse delays were tried and a big problem for these rounds was surface detonation, which made a big hole but often did mostly superficial damage (we've all seen photos of chewed up skins on planes that got home). To be really effective the round had to pass into the interior of the wing or fuselage where it could generate a "confined space" effect (which magnifies an explosion), but because the casing were so thin delaying the detonation risked the round comming apart and not detonating successfully. About 25% of these rounds were pure duds and did not detonate on striking a target. The fuse of the mine type rounds also required a flat head and this effected their aerodyamics (they had poor ballistic shape and thus high coef.'s of drag for their sectional density).

The 20mm was found insuffient against American heavy bombers like the B-17, requiring 20 or more hits between the wing root and inboard engine to reliably kill the bomber or force it out of formation. This lead to the 30mm which was much more effective, requiring only 2-5 hits between the wing root and inboard engine to accomplish the same result. Range was very limited, the 20mm having a maxium effective range of perhaps 300 meters, and the 30 mm MK108 more like 100 meters, for rear attacks. The 30mm MK103 would have had good range, but I'm not sure how much _Minengeschoss_ type ammo was fired from this gun (which was not used that much anyway).

Because the _Minengeschoss_ were not proving as successful as desired (i.e. one hit kills), the Germans also developed a hydrostatically fused incendiary round which would only detonate if emmersed in liquid. These were very successful at fully igniting fuel tanks but of course they would not do much elsewhere. The fuel tanks were considered the easiest critical area to hit.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Dec 19, 2004)

I already posted all this info previously................


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## Anonymous (Dec 19, 2004)

Erich said:


> I already posted all this info previously................



Well, in your post it seemed to me you were making these weapons out to be much more effective than they were. Remember that with the MG151/20 the Luftwaffe' determined it took over 20 hits to cripple or kill a B-17, and that it took over 1000 rounds fired to achieve those 20 hits. Hitting power was a strong point, range and accuracy were weak points, of these weapons.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Dec 25, 2004)

huh ? where do you get this info ? the Minen rounds were superior in devastating power to any comporable Allied/Soviet ammo. It sure didn't take 20 rounds of 2cm HEI to knock down a heavy bomber I can tell you that.


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## plan_D (Dec 26, 2004)

Yes, Erich has posted pictues in the past of heavy bombers being brought down with as little as 3 hits in the right place. The German pilots certainly knew how to put them in the right place too...

...and when you hear about that Bf-110 shooting down 9 (Right?) Lancasters in one night on one load of ammo, that's something to say about German ammo.


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## Anonymous (Dec 26, 2004)

Erich said:


> huh ? where do you get this info ? the Minen rounds were superior in devastating power to any comporable Allied/Soviet ammo. It sure didn't take 20 rounds of 2cm HEI to knock down a heavy bomber I can tell you that.



First off, the round is what it is. The MG151/20 round carried about 18 grams of HE/I payload in a 96 gram projectile with medium velocity (785 m/s at the muzzel) and poor ballistic performance (SD=0.292 with poor shape). The Hispano carried 11.3 grams of HE/I in a 129.6 gram projectile at high velocity (845 m/s @ 90 feet) with good ballistic performance (SD=0.412 with fair shape). The MG151/20 relied on HE payload to do the damage, where the Hispano relied on both HE payload and impact to do the damage.

In terms of actual damage, the two were quite comparable, the German round delivering more HE to the target but little impact damage, the Hispano a little less HE to the target but much more impact damage. Also, the Hispano round carried substantial mass to the target, assureing sharpnel damage, where the MG151/20 round carried almost no mass to the target (because its walls were so thin) so it had to recruit mass if it was to have shrapnel effect. Also, 25% of these types of rounds were duds, which means that 25% of the MG151/20 mine rounds did very little damage, where the Hispano round, even if a dud, would still do subantial damage. Overall, hitting power wise on a round per round basis, the Hispano was probably just as effective as the Mg151/20. The Hispano V, not the MG151/20, stands out as the best 20mm of WWII (with the Soviet B-20 as an arguable contender as it weighted half what the Hispano or MG151/20 weighed).



> By the summer of 1943, the Germans had deployed the Focke Wulf FW 190A4, a dedicated bomber killer armed with two 7.9mm machine guns and four 20mm cannons. With all guns functioning, a three-second burst fired about 130 rounds of ammunition. The Luftwaffe estimated that it took an average of 20 hits from the 20mm cannon to destroy a B-17. Analysis of gun camera film revealed that the average German pilot scored hits with only 2 percent of the rounds fired, thus on average, 1000 rounds were fired to score the 20 hits required.
> ...
> Later in the war, the Germans introduced the Mk 108 30mm heavy cannon capable of firing 600 11-ounce high explosive rounds per minute. Three hits with this weapon were usually sufficient to bring down a Flying Fortress. On the other hand it was a low velocity weapon and its effective range was shorter than the 20-mm cannon forcing German pilots to fly even closer to get hits.
> http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~josephkennedy/German_Pilot_Perspective.htm





> The MK 108 was developed during the early 1940s by RHEINMETALL-BORSIG. It was the standard 30 mm cannon in fighters from about 1942 until 1945. It was a weapon of brilliant design. The Mk 108 was more a product of a nation at war than the earlier Mk103. ( a much larger and heavier weapon that had been fitted experimentally under the wings of a Fw 190 ) The Mk 103 was milled, and finished with higher-quality steels, whereas the Mk 108 was made from lower quality easily assembled metal stampings with machined steel barrels. It featured electrical ignition and was operated electrically / pneumatically. The brochure claimed a rate of fire of 660 rounds per minute. Weight of projectile was 330 g, total weight 480 g. The weight of the gun was 58 kg and it's length 1057 mm. The most effective ammunition was the Minengranate (mine shell), a heavy shell filled with high explosive. The Minengranaten were quite incredible HE shells, combining a minimum thickness of shell casing with maximum explosive content. Their incendiary effects could easily start a fire on contact with the aluminium of a four-engined bomber. Just 3 to 4 shells placed at the in-board engine and wing root would be enough to destroy a Viermot. The Sturmbock 190 had 55 rounds of this lethal ammunition per 30 mm Mk 108. The low velocity and slower rate of fire gave it it's characteristic sound. It became the "pneumatic hammer"
> 
> The MK 108 had a number of characteristics that limited its use to anti-bomber combat. Projectile velocity was low at 520m/sec which resulted in short range and poor accuracy . Ammunition could not be wasted in wild shooting from long range. Ammunition belt malfunction under high G-forces was a problem. The wing mounted cannon were heavy and there was little room in the wing for ammunition ( only 55 rounds/gun sufficient for barely 5 seconds firing ). More importantly for the Sturmgruppe pilots the weight of the cannon in the wings adversely affected the manoeuvrability of the Focke Wulf 190, making the aircraft quite unsuitable for fighter v fighter combat. But it was this weapon/ammunition combination that made possible the tactics of the Sturmgruppen. The German pilots might have acknowledged the superiority of the American fighters by mid 1944 but they believed rightly that they had the best firepower for the task. Lt Richard Franz of Sturmstaffel 1 remembers using the Mk 108 in action against the B-17s ( quoted in Classic's Sturmstaffel 1 )
> 
> ...



I've studied these weapons in great detail. It was the Luftwaffe' that claimed an average of 20 x 20mm hits to kill a B-17, or 2-4 x 30mm hits (if placed properly). And it was the Luftwaffe' that claimed it took 1000 20mm rounds expended to land those 20 hits to kill a B-17.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Dec 26, 2004)

sorry man but I have interviewed tons of GErman vets both day and night, especially the ones flying heavy STrumFw's equipped with the so called rounds that did not do much damage. I will agree that the earlier 2cm HE did not have the ballistics necessary to bring down a heavy until the Minengeschoss was in effect to the truppen. As several Luftwaffe pilots have said and even in publication that they felt they did not have the superiro a/c but did have the superiro ammo. The guncam cine films prove it way too often..........

but I appreciate your willingness to come up with textural stats, which in the field mean nothing as far as I am concerned. Freind and ace Peter spoden spoke of one pilot in his NJG 6 gruppe that shot down 1 Lanc with 3 rounds of 2cm in the Schragwaffen installation. Pretty bloody lucky I will admit but still it shows what was able......and this was not even Minen ammo


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## Gnomey (Dec 26, 2004)

Some nice footage there, interesting to watch.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 26, 2004)

welcome to the site and nice siggy gno..................


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## Anonymous (Dec 26, 2004)

Erich said:


> sorry man but I have interviewed tons of GErman vets both day and night, especially the ones flying heavy STrumFw's equipped with the so called rounds that did not do much damage. I will agree that the earlier 2cm HE did not have the ballistics necessary to bring down a heavy until the Minengeschoss was in effect to the truppen. As several Luftwaffe pilots have said and even in publication that they felt they did not have the superiro a/c but did have the superiro ammo. The guncam cine films prove it way too often..........
> 
> but I appreciate your willingness to come up with textural stats, which in the field mean nothing as far as I am concerned. Freind and ace Peter spoden spoke of one pilot in his NJG 6 gruppe that shot down 1 Lanc with 3 rounds of 2cm in the Schragwaffen installation. Pretty bloody lucky I will admit but still it shows what was able......and this was not even Minen ammo



A single round of any caliber could take down any WWII plane if it hit in just the right place. But when it comes to typical or expected results, these cases have to be excluded as they are extremely rare and based more on luck than anything else. When it came to what the weapon could be expected to do, the figures I've given are reasonable.

Also, a Lancaster was a lot easier to take down than a B-17. Where the Lanc excelled in terms of payload, speed, and manuverability over the B-17, the B-17 excelled in toughness and defensive armament. If you ever get a chance to go inside a B-17 and a Lancaster, you can see the difference right off - the B-17 has much tighter ribbing, and it's thicker too. The B-17 had a lot more armor, more damage resistant engines with some fire extinguishing capability (later models), no liquid cooling system, and much superior self-sealing fuel tanks.

=S=

Lunatic


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## plan_D (Dec 26, 2004)

Erich, what were the NJG-6 flying? 

RG, I bet you cannot bring down a B-17 with a single shot from a 5.56mm round...  

You could still bring down a B-17 with 3-6 rounds if you put them in the right place.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 26, 2004)

If that particular place was unpainted (less friction and mass, I guess the round would fly better; this is a guess, not a fact), unarmored, and of extremely thin aluminum covering unsealing fuel tanks...


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## plan_D (Dec 26, 2004)

You talking about the 5.56 comment, or the 3-6 20mm rounds comment?


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 26, 2004)

Ah, I thought you meant 3-6 5.56mm, I know 20mm was extremely deadly, in German form.


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## plan_D (Dec 26, 2004)

Well I did seperate them with spaces...and boy would B-17s be mocked if 3-6 5.56mm rounds could bring them down.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 26, 2004)

I know, but you didn't indicate the new subject well...


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## plan_D (Dec 26, 2004)

True, I didn't. I failed horribly...and going with my signature, this calls for some beer drinking.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 26, 2004)

Send some my way!


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## Anonymous (Dec 27, 2004)

plan_D said:


> RG, I bet you cannot bring down a B-17 with a single shot from a 5.56mm round...



Sure you can. It hits a fuel pump line which then fills the nacel with gas which then explodes. Or you hit a gunner's ammo box which then chain-reacts and tears the plane in half.



plan_D said:


> You could still bring down a B-17 with 3-6 rounds if you put them in the right place.



Again, that would be very lucky with 20mm, but typical with 30mm mine rounds.

=S=

Lunatic


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## BlackWolf3945 (Dec 27, 2004)

Gotta love 'experts'...


Fade to Black...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 27, 2004)

yes you do really.............


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## plan_D (Dec 27, 2004)

And a 5.56 is going to penertrate the armour of a B-17 is it? It must not have had very good armour. 

And 3-6 20mm rounds in the gunners ammo box...funny how there was an attempt to say a bomber could be brought down with a lower calibre round then saying that a higher calibre would be lucky with 3-6 rounds, to do the same.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 27, 2004)

Like I said, unpainted, unarmored, and of extremely thin aluminum construction...


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## plan_D (Dec 27, 2004)

I was telling that to RG, who said you could bring one down with a single 5.56 round. The B-17 was armoured, so you couldn't.

You got to love experts...really, people like Blackwolf should just stop and get back to modelling.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 27, 2004)

I know, but how is Blackwolf being an expert?


I really haven't been paying much attention, just trying to back up my opinions...


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## plan_D (Dec 27, 2004)

Nah, he was trying to be smart 'cos it looked like RG had made me look like a fool...and BlackWolf wanted to get in there and join the fun...


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## Erich (Dec 27, 2004)

back on topic............ 3cm heavy hitter

I see folk are quoting from our web-pages again.........  by the way Richard Franz is a good friend ...............


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## Erich (Dec 27, 2004)

this might be of interest ?

2cm M and AP


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## plan_D (Dec 27, 2004)

My response...ow.


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## (G/C) Lionel Mandrake (Dec 29, 2004)

RG_Lunatic said:


> 22MB MPEG movie! I suggest you save it to disk and then view it.
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> ...


Hello ol' boy. A big thank you for posting that gun cine footage.Watching that has brought back my Messerschmitt twitch. Can anyone else produce such goods here ? Excellent post, top hole...Must dash chaps.

Tally Ho.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 29, 2004)

i wonder, are you british or just trying to sound so??

welcome to the site


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## evangilder (Dec 29, 2004)

I was wondering the same thing...Almost sounded contrived. Oh well, cheerio and all that.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 29, 2004)

I say hes an imposter...


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## (G/C) Lionel Mandrake (Dec 29, 2004)

Don't be like that lads, one can't help having a plummy voice. Please permit me to submit this web link i've had since year dot.
http://www.web-birds.com/8th/339/gun/gun.html

Looking forward to future duels. Btw Lancaster, God invented the heaven and the earth, next came an Englishman  

Tally Ho


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 29, 2004)

(G/C) Lionel Mandrake said:


> God invented the heaven and the earth, next came an Englishman
> 
> Tally Ho




'Till he smartened up, and turned some into Canadians.  


Keep yer stick on the ice!


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 29, 2004)

Im not putting my stick anywhere near the ice thankyou very much!


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## (G/C) Lionel Mandrake (Dec 29, 2004)

Speaking of ice...

"but for my own sake I do not regret this journey, which has shown that Englishmen can endure hardships, help one another, and meet death with as great a fortitude as ever in the past. We took risks, we knew we took them; things have come out against us, and therefore we have no cause for complaint, but bow to the will of providence, determined still to do our best to the last...Had we lived, I should have had a tale to tell of the hardihood, endurance, and courage of my companions which would have stirred the heart of every Englishman. These rough notes and our dead bodies must tell the tale, but surely, surely, a great rich country like ours will see that those who are dependent on us are properly provided for".

Robert Falcon Scott.

RIP my dear fellow countrymen


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## evangilder (Dec 29, 2004)

I heard it once said that the sun never set on the British empire because God didn't trust the Brits in the dark.


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## BlackWolf3945 (Dec 30, 2004)

plan_D said:


> Nah, he was trying to be smart 'cos it looked like RG had made me look like a fool...and BlackWolf wanted to get in there and join the fun...



Actually, no. I wasn't being 'smart', and it wasn't directed towards anyone in particular. I was rather serious in making a broad, if not brief, editorial comment, so to speak. 


Fade to Black...


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## BlackWolf3945 (Dec 30, 2004)

(G/C) Lionel Mandrake said:


> Please permit me to submit this web link i've had since year dot.
> http://www.web-birds.com/8th/339/gun/gun.html



You and everyone else... 

Web-birds is a groovy site, yes...


Fade to Black...


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## plan_D (Dec 30, 2004)

God just turned some British left and made them Canadian, that's all.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 30, 2004)




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## The Jug Rules! (Jan 6, 2005)

RG_Lunatic said:


> Have any of you been able to download this file successfully?
> 
> =S=
> 
> Lunatic



Yep, It played as soon as I clicked It. Anyway, Ive seen the last movie (10)before. Everytime someone mentions ww2 aircraft, they show that movie.
I always thought I that it was from a bf 109 G. there was only 1 stream of tracers.


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## Erich (Jan 6, 2005)

if it is the 110G-2 against the B-17 U can see two distinct sets of tracers. 2cm and MG 17 which is used as the Bf 110G gets in close...........pretty stupid as the bomber debris most likely caused some sort of damage to the attacking German a/c.

note the P-47 being chased down in # 17. Actually long footage for the German fighter to get close enough to hit the wings of the Jug


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## Udet (Jan 6, 2005)

Hello cutties:

Check this guncamera from a German fighter chewing a B-17 which seems already badly damaged: you can even see the engine on the left wing (outboard) is already dead.

It appears the German aircraft responsible for such attack was Bf109G6.

Erich, if you are somewhere out there:

Is it correct to say the first 2 tracers shot by the German pilot (easy to detect) were from the MG131 to pin point the target before blasting it away with the nose cannon?

What cannon was it? 2 cm or 3 cm?

Besides everything, the punch of the German fighter is totally brutally powerful. It can gives us an idea of the terror the bomber crews would experience during such attacks.

The poor guys on the bomber were merely trying to survive; even though it seems like they where going nowhere but down.


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## Erich (Jan 6, 2005)

Udet I have this cine film,

Willi Maximowitz in Sturmstaffel 1 in the winter of 1944 flying an Fw 190A-7/MK

the hits are from 2cm and 3cm weapons.........as you say brutal. // have to say the B-17 was downed this day sadly for the men inside


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## Erich (Jan 6, 2005)

sorry to quick a fingers. At first the Fw 190 pilot attacks the right side of the B-17 and hits the tail gunner and then we proceed with the film that Udet has kindly supplied

just a small notation

E ~


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## Udet (Jan 6, 2005)

Erich:

i must say I am impressed to know of the information you provide.

Yes, the blast is a very brutal looking thing. Perhaps many of the crew were already dead or badly wounded before finally going down.

Did he, right before banking off the bomber, put a final shot at the left outboard engine?

Willi Maximowitz one of the Sturmböck aces!!

Erich, this is impressive. I have seen hours of gun camera footage, still I have no way in knowing in one sole case from any of the shots, whose pilot gun camera was it!!

How did you manage to know it was Willy Maximowitz?


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## lesofprimus (Jan 6, 2005)

Im sure some of the things erich knows would astound all of us here......


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## Erich (Jan 6, 2005)

Udet the information comes from two SturmFw aces.

I am not sure positively how the engagement ended except it was noted that the B-17 went down. You note that the Fw or at least the gun cam is showing the attacking fighter going over the wing so to speak and banking away and this is how the cine film ends.

if you note the very first film on this thread, go through it again and you find a formation (pulk) of all silver B-24's being attacked from the rear. there are 2 sequences of the same bomber group being attacked on the same date. The footage supposedly from what I have as to US veteran resources suggested this was on the terrible 27 September 1944 raid over Kassel. ( at one time in the hands of the IWM in London ); A real botched job of the US 445th bg who were assaulted by all three SturmFw gruppen with 30 B-24's going down. Of special interest is one B-24 being attacked and an HEI Minen round goes into the left outer wing causing an immediate fire.............this crew didn't have a chance 

I have at least 6 other cine films by SturmFw's on different dates dealing out their lethal and ugly lead on B-24's. Will try to get snaps of some of these and post them. On two of the films the Fw's get within 100yards and literally tear the B-24 apart, and in fact within that 100 yards all you see towards the end of the film is debris flying everywhere, the tail units decomposing and the inner engine on one of the B-24 falls off, torn from the wing......I am almost reluctant to even make snaps of these as it is really gruesome

E ~


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## Udet (Jan 6, 2005)

Erich:

Thank you very much for your gentle explanation.

And I fully agree with you on your comment regarding how shocking can many of such images can be.

My guncamera footage collection includes no less than 50 films of P-51s getting shot down by German fighters.

I submitted one of the CD´s to a group of alleged experts on WWII airwarfare issues.

They concluded 4 of the guncamera films came from Me262s pulverizing the Mustangs. I use the word "pulverizing" in the most literal sense there is.

How did they conclude the film came from the Luftwaffe jet? 
They calculated the approximate distance of the US fighter at first appearance on the camera sight, and concluded that the time it took the interceptor to effectively intercept, covering such distance, getting as close as 50 meters to the P-51 could have never been achieved by any other piston engined of the war, friend or foe alike.

The action appears to have been at high altitude.
When the distance reached some 50 meters, the P-51 pilot attempted evasive action but curiously the turning radius of the German plane was superior and remained inside the US pilot. 

The German pilot opened fire virtually overhead the cockpit and the outcome is totally disturbing; so disturbing I have seen such image only a very few times and I am not interested at all in seeing them again. Furthermore, to my personal disgrace I am capable of replaying the entire film in my mind from beginning to end.

The Mustang gets cleanly torn apart; the nose section flys away, and you can get about one second glimpse of the body of the US pilot with all limbs horribly twisted among big parts of his destroyed plane. Finally you can get another second glimpse -virtually leaving the sight of the camera- of a flashing or smoke.

P.S. Erich, sorry -I digress-, in the part of the film I posted here, is there an initial pin point shot of the MG131s before firing the cannons?


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## lesofprimus (Jan 6, 2005)

Gentlemen,
I know I speak for the whole board here if I could relay our graciousness and eternal thanks if you could post as many of those video/clips here in this thread..... 

ANY AND ALL FOOTAGE WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED........

The ones u are desribing Erich, gruesome in nature, are a true testament to the bomber crews of this horrible war....

I can say with honest conviction that by posting more video clips, u are furthering the interest in WW II aviation by leaps and bounds.....

Gun Camera footage is as real as it gets..... Honest and bloody, horrible and honorable..... The best teaching tool.....

PLEASE POST ANY AND ALL FOOTAGE WHENEVER YOU CAN...

Thanks guys.....


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 6, 2005)

I second that! It's impressive stuff, _and_ it's historical.
That's what it's all about, isn't it?


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## Erich (Jan 6, 2005)

gents thanks for the comments............

the material may take a little time as the chap that does my digital work, works for Allied intel and he is gone on assignment, but when he is back home he really enjoys my little "treats" that I bring him to size down. Will check further in my saved files as I may have something although a bit on the small size I think.............it will be here though.

Udet not sure if any of the rounds on the B-17 are from the 13mm cowling guns. The inboard 2cm's were also used to pinpoint the rounds and having a much longer range than the 3cm short range cannons. I will have to check my records but the SturmFw he flew may have been armed with 4 2cm's and not any 3cm guns. The mg 131's were usually removed but the cowlings were not faired over yet. For bomber killing the MG 131 was about useless and to save weight they were pulled from the a/c so the SturmFw could take on that extra 500 pounds of armor plating 

good night gents.............. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Erich ~


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## lesofprimus (Jan 6, 2005)

Thanks for everything Erich.. WE can wait for ur pal.. No problem..... Long clips, short clips... We would like to view them all....


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## Erich (Jan 7, 2005)

here is the beginning or should say one of the first shots by Willi on the B-17 in the last film. sorry for the small size of the image


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## Udet (Jan 7, 2005)

Erich do you have your guncamera footage on CD? or what of the format?

Do not be troubled, for I will not ask you to send me anything in your possession. 

I ask you because I would like to attach some gucamera films from my collection here; even though I am not appealed by the idea since there are quite a few ones in this forum with whom I would not like to share what I have.

Still, it would be enlightening to some guys to see footage that strangely you never see in the documentals of the USAAF in the ETO, where they will only show US fighters shooting down German fighters, forging in the collective mind of the people "only German fighters got destroyed in combat flight".

Perhaps the USAAF historians do not want their country fellows to see their Mustangs also got blown out of the skies.

If I have it all on CD, how do I make MPEG files? Do you happen to know?


Finally Erich, I have seen the photo you just posted, are you saying it is the same doomed bomber in the film I attached here?


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## Erich (Jan 7, 2005)

no the cine films are on old vhs and directly from Germany some years back. not sure how to make any wmv file format. The pic I put up is from a very popular set of German reel footage and is suppose to be the start of Willi's attack. He place three or so rounds on the right side and tail before the imagery changes to the left side attack where he slows his SturmFw down in speed to inflict the terrible damage.

I can get snaps of the fottage in a stilled format only. one by one which is tedious


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## Anonymous (Jan 10, 2005)

Erich said:


> Udet not sure if any of the rounds on the B-17 are from the 13mm cowling guns. The inboard 2cm's were also used to pinpoint the rounds and having a much longer range than the 3cm short range cannons. I will have to check my records but the SturmFw he flew may have been armed with 4 2cm's and not any 3cm guns. The mg 131's were usually removed but the cowlings were not faired over yet. For bomber killing the MG 131 was about useless and to save weight they were pulled from the a/c so the SturmFw could take on that extra 500 pounds of armor plating
> Erich ~



Erich,

If you study the MG131 vs the MG151/20, one thing that stands out is these two guns had nearly identical ballistics. This means that, unlike the MG17, MG131's in the cowl were useful to sight the 20mm.

I suspect that, in general, planes armed with 30mm MK108's deleted the MG131's, both for weight reasons and because the focus was on the 30mm, and having 3 different gun types in the plane just complicated everything. However, in the 20mm armed planes, I suspect the MG131's were usually retained, because of the ballistics, the rather poor Rof of the wing root 20mm (250rpg @ 600rpm), and the rather small ammo load of the outboard 20mm (140rpg @ 730rpm). The 1700 rpm RoF of the MG131's (450rpg @ 850rpm) would have substantially increased the volume of fire (i.e. rounds in the air).

Not saying this is fact, just what I think makes sense.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Jan 11, 2005)

at first the mg 131's were retained just as you said, to take aim or pinpoint the canon rounds. the idea of course was to take out the threat of the tail gunner, but it was found that maximum destruction with fewer rounds was needed and why have the extra weight of the cowling guns when 2cm could be used to make more of an impact. It has been found that certain SturmFw pilots did keep the mg 131's all through the war on their craft. And Also some pilots in Sturmgruppen flew a regular A-8 variant so they could try and kepp pace with US P-51's during dog-fights.

E


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## lesofprimus (Jan 12, 2005)

I have found that it was a toss up to pilots desires and combat circumstances.... In just about all the material Ive viewed the pilot dictated what his armament would be..

The 30mm was usually used without the -131's... The weight really made a difference as u suggested... And the smaller rounds were found to be unecessary for that mission profile....


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## Erich (Jan 12, 2005)

I'm still at home due to the cold temps but am going to find that cine films and take a quic k peek.

yes up to the pilot and ground crew whether to have the mg's removed or not. The problem and I mentioned this earlier, when the mg's were removed there were still the opening in the fairings over the engine colwling, and although quite small did throw off the flying characteristics of the heavy Fw 190 through wind drag and the noise into the cockpit of a whistle. Kommodore of JG 300 in the summer/fall of 1944 was Major Walter Dahl RK winner. He flew several different types of A-8's/SturmFw's and had either fairings faired over with removeal of the mg's or had the full on range of all three types of weapons. Again the mg 131's were for target indication.

will say that JG 300 had a tendancy to overclaim and Dahl was one of the instigators with his own kills/claims, as on Sturm Fw missions the man would file a kill for a mission he never flew on. also note, right now that his flugbuch is on e-bay and going for 300.00 euro's. It should fetch clsoe to 770.00 plus before bidding is closed I feel. A very strange man


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## Udet (Jan 12, 2005)

The part of the film I attached to my post was sent to me via e-mail (a while ago), I actually had forgotten it was on my PC. It was not part of my collection.

The name of the file is "utok_bf109g6".

"Utok" is czec for "attack", and of course the final part in the filename, the fighter allegedly responsible for gutting the doomed B-17.

I will never claim any kind of knowledge regarding the analysis of firearms; after seeing the film several times it appeared like if indeed we were seeing just one "line" of shells being fired, like from one sole cannon: A BRUTALLY AND DEVASTATING CANNON for sure.

So after seeing the Bf109G-6, as name of the file, it seemed reasonable to think the fire came from the engine mounted 2cm or 3cm cannon of a Bf109.

However, on the field of gunnery and firearms i will certainly not stand to the many of you which apparently know a good deal on such toys.


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## Erich (Jan 12, 2005)

Udet if you replay the cine-film again you will notice how many cannon rounds hit so close together a point made by several Luftw vets to me, noting the 4 cannon by the Fw 190A-8. the angle is strange for sure, but the pilot actually slows down and is on a slight cant when firing

E ~


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## Anonymous (Jan 13, 2005)

It's hard to tell from that film, but I suspect its early Mg151/20 armed plane. The large flashes on the target skin would be common with the early mine rounds, which tended to detonate on contact. The flashes can over-expose the film in dim light and can look even larger than they really were (this appears to have been taken at dusk or dawn). If the cannon had been an MK108, I'd expect the B-17 would have exploded or broke in two from those hits.

Also, notice that the target B-17 has already been attacked in a previous run, as the outer left engine is already feathered.

Are you sure this plane was destroyed? Surface hits along that part of the B-17 can cause very nasty looking surface damage w/o killing it. My guess is if this plane went down it might well have required yet another attack run since there is no signs of critical damage or fire in this film.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Jan 13, 2005)

I went back and looked on my film of this incident and it is a Sturmstaffel 1 machine with four 2cm weapons. No 3cm's as I originally thought. Also I believe it is of the April 29, 1944 fiasco...........

good head up


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## The Jug Rules! (Jan 13, 2005)

Whats the difference between the mk 108 and the mk103


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## Erich (Jan 13, 2005)

mk 108 low velocity / mk 103 high velocity.

mk 108 short range weapon and different ammo, with short barrel

mk 103 longer range and a longer barrel. different ammo, used for ground attack work, very effective I might add in the Hs 129.

anyone else add 2 ¢


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## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

I thought the Hs129 didn't achieve great results because of under-powered engine. But then, we're talking about guns not planes so...


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## Erich (Jan 13, 2005)

it was an excellent craft with SG 9


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## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

I actually don't know much about the Hs129. I know there was a variant Hs129-B (?) with a 75mm cannon that there were about 25 built, I think.


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## Udet (Jan 13, 2005)

Erich:

Well, I played the film again, and by following your comments I believe you are right. It looks like a four cannon Fw190.

Some questions Erich:
The HE 2 cm shells (the extremely destructive ones) you ve talked about here got issued only to the sturmgruppen or were they also used by other jagdgeschwader?

I ask because if those shells had such a terrorific effect on the heavy four engined bombers, what of the effect of the same ammo on a far smaller single engined plane?

Also I ask because on several of the films I have, when the victims are Mustangs, they virtually got vaporized in the huge explosion. From the first shell hitting the target you can see a fire begins on the P-51, just to receive perhaps 1 or 2 more shells to have a huge explosion.

Sometimes the effect of the impacts on the Mustang are very different: 
(i) In some you see the P-51 vaporizing in a fireball; (ii) in some others the Mustang is more than slaughtered, it gets vivisected (like a chef cutting a chicken for cooking the dish) each fraction of a second passing you see parts, of all sizes, falling apart from the Mustangs body but no explosion is visible, (iii) in a few ones the P-51 becomes a torch and begins its downward trajectory and (iv) simply you see a thick trail of smoke coming from the nose section.

In others, it is clear the German pilot fired one or two very well placed cannon shells (Bf109Gs in this case) sometimes mixed with a 13 mm MG burst to assure the Mustang went down leaving a trace of smoke.

Erich, do you happen to know what percentage of German fighters were equipped with gun camera? Furthermore, what was the pattern, if any, followed to fit a fighter with gun camera? Was it a random selection? Did it depend on the pilot? Staffel? Gruppe?


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## Erich (Jan 13, 2005)

Eeeeeeeeeeeeks how much time do we have guys ?  

yes your film shows HE hitting the fuselage of tha B-17. Probably not HEI or it would of caused even more of an explosion and fires as RG posted. In any case it is all happening so fast that we cannot of course tell if the a/c went down, but most likely there was such devastation within, everything shot to crap, men killed, oxygen bottles bursting and ammo going off, etc plus internal fire(s) that we cannot even see. The a/c was reported as going down and W. Maximowitz was given the victory.

Mine rounds first came out in 1943, as I own a yellow bodied round with the black M and 43 below it plus numerations.

In June of 44 they were refined and given out to all Jagdgeschwader-2cm.

the 3cm were also given out to the a/c of the A-7/MK in JG 1 and JG 11 plus Sturmstaffel 1 although I feel strongly that this last squadron was usally equipped with armored a/c that had four 2cm weapons.

Kameras were given out haphazordly at first and in no real amounts, meaning that not all pilots received one but as the war progressed it was found to build up moral that even the inexperienced should have one to watch the films after the air engagement sos the pilots could learn from possible mistakes. Hans Weik said in July of 44 thqt only the aces had the "special" HEI for their sturm machines but this does not prove right as I have films showing other pilots with 1-2 kills taking on the rear of B-17's and B-24's ripping the guts out of the a/c and the rounds causing fires to the wing surfaces and finally to the engines and fuselage. Also since the StumFw pilkts got so close, in many instantes the bomber is shown with flying debris everywhere with the point is that all you see is the a/c disentigrate before your eyes. No fires, just debris flying everywhere.....it's just plain terrible.


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## Udet (Jan 13, 2005)

hahaah!

You can later tell me of your fees because of the interview Erich. 8) 

Thanks a lot for the guncamera comments.
It seems like a very smart thing to do and show the new pilots how their combats were and learn of possible mistakes and of tactics taught by the experienced boys.

Ok, so if after June 1944 the 2cm version of that destructive shells were issued out to all JGs then i am convinced some of the shots I have were fired from fighters equipped with those.


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## Erich (Jan 14, 2005)

yes I beleive what you have on your films indicates the terible HEI 2cm rounds. I am looking at a pic right now of Schwarze 1 und 15 of 2./JG 11. both a/c are Fw 190A-7/MK's equipped with outboard 3cm weapons, mg's and inboard 2cm guns. Black 1 was flown by Fritz Engau and in his book he describes in the spring months of April and May of 44 of the wing attacking B-17 formations from the front (Frontal durch die Bomberpulks), his description of hitting the nose of the B-17's-cockpit and literally blowing off the front of the heavy bomber are wrenching. the main tactic besides hitting the cockpit was the engines as they seem to be a large target although it only took several seconds for the German pilot to set himself and then fire when attacking from the front, any longer and he would overshoot the bomber and the rest of the heavies


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## Erich (Jan 14, 2005)

hope this pic turns out. article written by my good Engliosh bud, Neil Page with my help. In SAM magazine.

14.Sturm/JG 3 with Schwarze 14 SturmFw in the background, piloted by Oskar Bösch who is the second from the right in the summer weight flying uni


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## Anonymous (Jan 14, 2005)

Erich said:


> Eeeeeeeeeeeeks how much time do we have guys ?
> 
> yes your film shows HE hitting the fuselage of tha B-17. Probably not HEI or it would of caused even more of an explosion and fires as RG posted. In any case it is all happening so fast that we cannot of course tell if the a/c went down, but most likely there was such devastation within, everything shot to crap, men killed, oxygen bottles bursting and ammo going off, etc plus internal fire(s) that we cannot even see. The a/c was reported as going down and W. Maximowitz was given the victory.
> 
> ...



Mine rounds came out in 1940 or 1941. The "M" in MG-FFM (the 20mm on the 109E and some other German planes such as the FW190A-4 outer pair) could only fire mine rounds. By mid-1942, mine rounds were in widespread use. The MG151/20 could fire mixed ammo types, and this was typically done because the mine rounds had advantages and disadvantges over other types. Especially earlier in the war, one big disadvantage of the mine round was it was contact fused. When striking the target, it would detonate on the surface, which causes superficial damage which may or may not destroy the target. Putting a delay on the round was experimented with all through the war, but the results are mixed, as delaying the fuse could easily result in a "dud" as the thin casing could easily be striped away and the payload disintigrate before the fuse detonated it. Also, approximately 25% of all fused HE rounds were pure duds.

As for effectiveness on fighters, again the results are mixed. The mine rounds had relatively low velocity (compared to allied guns) so they were harder to score with. If they did hit, 25% were duds and would have less effect than other ammo types. If contact fused, they would make a big hole in the sheet metal which, depending on the location and the speed of the plane, might allow airflow to rip even more sheetmetal off the plane, which could make it unflyable. Otherwise, it would have to make surface contact very near a critical component or it was not likely to do serious damage. 20mm mine rounds were known to detonate on contact with the behind the pilot armor of P-47's (on the canopy or on the sheetmetal of the pre-bobble tops) and cause no serious damage to the plane/pilot other than possibly taking out the radio.

It depends a lot on the target. I point out that British studies showed the 20mm Hispano firing HEI ammo was about equal to the .50 BMG firing _BALL AMMO_ against a Bf-109F from the rear at various angles after indexing for RoF difference. The only place where the 20mm did better was in starting fires when hitting the fuel tanks, and I suspect that had it been compared to M8 API ammo for the .50, the .50 would probably have come out superior (after indexing for RoF), but also that against tougher targets the 20mm would start to show advantage.

Also, I do not think O2 bottles were used on US aircraft. The British and Americans used O2 generators almost excusively. The Germans mostly used O2 generators but I've also read of O2 bottles being used sometimes. The Russians usually didn't have O2 or if they did it was usually in bottles (except in lend-lease planes). The Japanese... The IJA used O2 generators, the IJN used bottles - this is one reason why aiming at the cockpit was found so effective against IJN zero's.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Jan 14, 2005)

oxygen bottles were used on B-17's as I have mission reports for January 14, 1945 where the US 2nd bg group were devastated by Sturm Fw's if II.Sturm/JG 300. Several cases of suriving crewmen noting this before bailing out.

thanks for clearing up the date of the M round,; makes sense. Yes it would have to be early M rounds to do little damage to P-47's. I have part of a cine film showing a P-47 being chased in january 45 of a JG 11 Fw 190A-8. 2 shots cleanly seen with major flashes, after the second one you can see the inboard section of the left wing crumple, down the jug went.

good work


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## evangilder (Jan 14, 2005)

O2 bottle most certainly were used in US aircraft. The F2 oxygen tank was carried in the P-51 and the P-47, probably several others as well. The bombers carried O2 tanks in static and portable configurations. Portables enabled them to move around the bomber when needed.

Aiming at the cockpit was so effective because there was no armor to protect the pilot.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 14, 2005)

the ONLY peice of armour plating in the lanc was behind the pilots head


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## evangilder (Jan 14, 2005)

Yikes! Might want to sit on a flak jacket to protect the pods.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 14, 2005)

yes the pilot was a lucky lucky man..............


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## evangilder (Jan 14, 2005)

He was the ONLY one.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 14, 2005)

well the bomb aimer got a damn good view of the target, and when lit up it would be spectacular...........


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## evangilder (Jan 14, 2005)

I often thought that it must have been a heck of a sight to see, especially the night bombing missions. With the flashes and smoke, it must have been something.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 14, 2005)

i'd love to see if but only if i knew i was safe like, if you know waht i mean.............


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## evangilder (Jan 14, 2005)

I know what you mean. Something to see, but not while being shot at!


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## Anonymous (Jan 14, 2005)

Erich said:


> oxygen bottles were used on B-17's as I have mission reports for January 14, 1945 where the US 2nd bg group were devastated by Sturm Fw's if II.Sturm/JG 300. Several cases of suriving crewmen noting this before bailing out.



O2 bottles were carried stowed in case the O2 generator failed (or was damaged) or there was a breach of a line. I don't think the pilots or crew relied on them as a primary source of O2, and if stowed they were reasonably well protected.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Anonymous (Jan 14, 2005)

evangilder said:


> O2 bottle most certainly were used in US aircraft. The F2 oxygen tank was carried in the P-51 and the P-47, probably several others as well. The bombers carried O2 tanks in static and portable configurations. Portables enabled them to move around the bomber when needed.
> 
> Aiming at the cockpit was so effective because there was no armor to protect the pilot.



I believe the only O2 tanks on US fighters were for emergency reserve. They didn't carry enough O2 to last the whole of a mission, just enough to cover an emergency at altitude.

I could be wrong, it's been a long time since I read about the use of O2 generators vs. bottles.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Jan 14, 2005)

=S=

I am not sure where the Oxy bottles were carried but it does mention in numerous reports of things going boom within the heavies and total chaos ensued. a death-trap, besides watching crewmen get de-capitated and holes being blown out of the fuselage and the engines being ripped apart............watching the neighboring heavies getting blown up was grim enough, not having to deal with it on a personal level.


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## evangilder (Jan 14, 2005)

Well, if you have ever walked through a B-17 or B-24, there are O2 bottles in alot of different places. Going through the rear door on a B-24, there are 4 of them directly above you, good sized ones. I don't know if they were reserve or not, but certainly were not something I'd wnt to be near when the fit hit the shan. I will dig up my pictures and post a few. They are there, quite a few.


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## Erich (Jan 14, 2005)

duh, man I am so dense today, can't write, think or.....yes of course pics. have them both of B-24's and the B-17, visited on several occassions at our local goofy Flügplatz

Evan good reminder

E ♣


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## evangilder (Jan 15, 2005)

I found some shots of the O2 bottles in my collection. Some of these are mine, some are from others. The B-17 had several O2 bottles under the floor, so they were not as visible in normal viewing. Whereas on the B-24, they were obviously more visible in the aft section.

While there seems to be a question as to which oxygen system they used, O2 generators or bottled, they had bottles inside. Needless to say, when hit by an incendiary round, it adds extra explosive effect. A nightmare scenario.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 15, 2005)

nice pics, you get a good idea of the size of the ball turret in the fourth one as well


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## Anonymous (Jan 15, 2005)

evangilder said:


> I found some shots of the O2 bottles in my collection. Some of these are mine, some are from others. The B-17 had several O2 bottles under the floor, so they were not as visible in normal viewing. Whereas on the B-24, they were obviously more visible in the aft section.
> 
> While there seems to be a question as to which oxygen system they used, O2 generators or bottled, they had bottles inside. Needless to say, when hit by an incendiary round, it adds extra explosive effect. A nightmare scenario.



I've seen lots of shots of WWII bombers in action from inside the cabin, and I never saw O2 bottles like that.  Are you sure these were used during combat?


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## wmaxt (Jan 15, 2005)

One of the major problems of thr P-400s in the pacific was their inability to fly above 10,000/12,000ft because the O2 sys was the British low pressure system and not compatable with the American high pressure filling equipment.


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## Erich (Jan 15, 2005)

the oxygen bootles were there while in combat. punch in B-24 oxygen bootles on google search and there are several statements/links about cannon rounds and exploding Oxygen


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## lesofprimus (Jan 15, 2005)

Very bad news gents.... I have read about this before, and from the reports and eyewitness accounts, when the HEI rounds hit these tanks, it turned the cabin into each mans own version of Hades....

As someone who has blown up many different things WITH many different things, I get a very bad visual from this discussion guys.. Gives me the chills thinking about it.....


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## evangilder (Jan 15, 2005)

Yes, these were used in combat. Keep in mind that these aircraft are restored to be exactly as they were in the days they were flown in combat. These groups are big sticklers for being authentic. The only non-original gear they allow in is the updated radios/comm gear. 

You are right Les. The thought of an exploding O2 bottle scares the living bejesus out of me.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 15, 2005)

Ive blown them up before in demo work and training..... I cant fathom what it'd be like in an enclosed, cramped area like that..... There'd be red goo all over the inside of the fuselage.....

Bad dreams dude.....


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## evangilder (Jan 15, 2005)

I've never seen a tank blow, but I can imagine it would be something else. Oxygen is one of the primary components needed to make fire.


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## plan_D (Jan 15, 2005)

Well, it is the fuel of fire. AVPIN (Lightning, quick start, fuel) is so dangerous because it actually produces its own oxygen, you can't put it out.


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## Erich (Jan 15, 2005)

I can fill you in with first hand accounts, or maybe I won't. chilling it is, terrible and even gross by our standards. No time to think but just act.

A still from the very first film on this multi-page thread. A B-24 feels the effects of a SturmFw attack


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## lesofprimus (Jan 15, 2005)

I think itd be great to post that info erich.... I wont be reading it, but I think it could be useful for some here that truly cannot gauge what modern combat can do to the human body...

I myself have seen enough to last 3 lifetimes.....


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## Erich (Jan 15, 2005)

I understand Les fully............

maybe I will.

A B-24 on 27 September 1944. one still from a film clip. the a/c is attacked on the right side and the Fw 190 pilot slides over on the bombers left side, takes out the tail gunner and then tears the wing and engines apart on the left with his M rounds. the right inner engine is hit so bad that it nearly burns off the wing, a very strange vapor cloud immerges


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## Anonymous (Jan 15, 2005)

That's a fuel fire Erich.

As for the tanks, it appears you are right the tanks were present. However, by 1944, and perhaps earlier, they were low pressure oxygen tanks and in fact also had nitrogen in the air.

I'm trying to find more details, but I think the O2 generators fed O2 tanks, which then provided O2 to the crew. The tanks could not be filled while being used. I'm sure they were nasty when hit, but not nearly so much so as high pressure bottles.

I'll be searching on this a bit more, I need to find the page where I read about the use of O2 generators in WWII.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (Jan 15, 2005)

note the vaporizing cloud where the inboard right engine should be. also the small fire on the left inboard engine..........

I'll see if I can get this enlarged into the wmv format in a month or so.


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## evangilder (Jan 15, 2005)

If I can offer a word of advice when researching on the web; always double check the info. I have seen things on the web that can be directly contradicted on another web site. When I prepare presentations, I typically use anywhere from 8-12 sources for about 8-10 typed pages of info. It takes longer to get the info, but nothing is worse than presenting wrong info.


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## Anonymous (Jan 16, 2005)

Yes the web is always a risky source of info. Sites that give sources are usually pretty reliable though.

=S=

Lunatic


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 16, 2005)

don't trust TG planes..........


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## evangilder (Jan 16, 2005)

Usually yes, but I still check. I have been editing documents in the past and checked to find I transposed a number or had fingers on the wrong keys. It is possible that someone else could do the same.


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## hellmaker (Mar 22, 2005)

Lucky me I'm a student and I have a powerfull network connection...  I'll download it in a matter of minutes and tell you all about it... 
I'm sorry... I'm only kiddin...It's not in my nature to mock someone... But I do hope I'll see the clip quite in a short while...
... I'm edditing this message..
I've just seen the movie and it's both terrifing and awsome...


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 22, 2005)

Yeah I seen it too, s'good 8)


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 22, 2005)

And here is another, this is a guncam from a BF-109 in wich you can see a Messer attacking a Spitfire wich is already shooting at one Ju-88


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## hellmaker (Mar 23, 2005)

Man... those clips are great... cold blooded camera-men... It's terrifing only looking at them... just imagine how it wold have been for the pilots who actually took part in that dogfight(given they survived) to see this mini-movie... I guess it wuold have been a turn on...


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 26, 2005)

A clasic, B-17 blasted by large calibre explosive shells.


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## Anonymous (Mar 26, 2005)

I think in the "30mm" film, those are actually 20mm.

=S=

Lunatic


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 27, 2005)

Attack on Hurricanes, spitfires, P-40 and B-17


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## Anonymous (Mar 27, 2005)

What I find most interesting about all GE guncam footage against Allied fighters is how very close they had to get. Allied guncam footage, especially American, shows that they could fire from 2-3 times that range for good effect.

=S=

Lunatic


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 27, 2005)

I read sometime a phrase atributed to Hartmann wich was: " Get close...until he fill the windscreen" 

Sure it work for him.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 27, 2005)

well was it because our gunsights were better than theirs??


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## Anonymous (Mar 27, 2005)

No, it was because they had one 20mm with poor ballistics and two 7.9mm's with poor ballistics. You had to get close to land hits, and with only 150 rounds of ammo in the 20mm, you could not waste it on longer shots.

With six .50's with 270 or 400 rpg, with excellent ballistics, you could score from further out and you could afford the ammo to take the longer shots.

=S=

Lunatic


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 28, 2005)

BF-109 bouncing another fighter at low altitude. I am not sure about the allied aircraft. It looks like a Mustang Mk-1 or a P-51B.


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## Nonskimmer (Mar 28, 2005)

It does look like a Mustang. Can't tell the mark/model though.


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## Anonymous (Mar 28, 2005)

CharlesBronson said:


> BF-109 bouncing another fighter at low altitude. I am not sure about the allied aircraft. It looks like a Mustang Mk-1 or a P-51B.



Looks like another 109 to me


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 28, 2005)

But is not. Check the video more carefully and you see.


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## Gnomey (Mar 28, 2005)

Nice videos Charles!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 29, 2005)

it's cirtainly not a -109..........


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 30, 2005)

Bf-109 in pursuit of a Tomahawk. You can see several 20 mm hits and a lot of debris flying from the P-40. I think that this was a sure kill.


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## Anonymous (Mar 30, 2005)

CharlesBronson said:


> Bf-109 in pursuit of a Tomahawk. You can see several 20 mm hits and a lot of debris flying from the P-40. I think that this was a sure kill.



If that was all there was too it, the P-40 may have survived. All the 20mm hits appeared to be to the wings (1 to the left wing, 2 to the right), and the plane still seemed flyable as it banked to the right.

=S=

Lunatic


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 1, 2005)

I respect your opinion, but I think that it was a kill...sooner or later.


Several FW-190 attaking a "pulk "of B-24. The lower Liberator is taking heavy damage.


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## Anonymous (Apr 1, 2005)

CharlesBronson said:


> Several FW-190 attaking a "pulk "of B-24. The lower Liberator is taking heavy damage.



Must have been a fairly rookie bunch of 190 pilots - they did not seem to press their attack very effectively. Most were not even shooting while in range of the target(s). And they still have their drop tanks on - a very big vulnerablity when facing .50 API rounds.

=S=

Lunatic


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 1, 2005)

wow it's bits of flim like that that make you realise how big the formations were.............


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## Erich (Apr 1, 2005)

I have this cine film and the B-24 attacked went down. The pilots during 1944 were ordered by the great Fat One to keep the precious fuel tanks on no matter what was on their tail. Of course many refused to obey this ridiculous order when confronted by P-51's. The attack was by SturmFw's and two other B-24's were attacked in this film series and it appears many hits. True they did not close within a 30 to 50 metre range


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 2, 2005)

Spitfire being hit.


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 3, 2005)

FW-190A attacking Lagg-5, I am not very sure but seem that the german pilot use only his MG-131 guns because you cant see 20 mm tracers, did you?

Where is Lunatic when you really need him...?


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## Anonymous (Apr 3, 2005)

The German pilot may have chosen not to use tracers in his 20mm. They tend to foul the guns more than normal rounds, and the MG131 13mm ballistics are very close to the same as the MG151/20 ballistics, especially if the 20mm are loaded with HE or mine rounds.

Also, near the end after the target is burning he may have been out of 20mm ammo or chosen not to use it. It's really hard to tell given the quality of the film.

=S=

Lunatic


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 4, 2005)

Thank for your help.

I also think that probably the FW is out of 20 mm, but if it used non tracers shells is achieving no hits, because the impact flash are caused by the 13 mm HEI ammo.


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 8, 2005)

Fw-190 Y BF-110 guncameras from the East Front.


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## Anonymous (Apr 9, 2005)

Doesn't the top film indicate the target is a Lagg-5 ? Or is that caption w.r.t. the next clip (not shown)?


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 9, 2005)

Most probably the next clip. The aircraft certainly looks more like a Yak-9 than an La-5 to me.


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 9, 2005)

It is a Yak...trust me.


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 22, 2005)

B-17G bounced.
The german pilot pulling out at the last moment so you actually can see the holes in the right wing created by the 20mm HE shells.


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## CharlesBronson (May 19, 2005)

Messerschmitt Me-262 attacking Boeing B-17g.

Includes a frontal pass with a large burst of 30 mm.


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## lesofprimus (May 20, 2005)

Couldnt get this one or the last one u did in the Pacific.......... Tries to download a codec and fails. Turns file red........


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## Blitzkrieg Bop (May 20, 2005)

Christ, that burst of 30mm...


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## CharlesBronson (May 20, 2005)

Les:

I think that you need to download this software.

http://www.divx.com/divx/drdivx/download/


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## CharlesBronson (May 22, 2005)

Another B-17 blasted by high explosive shells. The rear gunner location took 3 hits that destroy this gun emplacement.


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## Chocks away! (Jun 15, 2005)

How come there's no bf 109 gun cam in the luftwaffe compilation?


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## sunny91 (Jun 17, 2005)

error in posting,

sunny


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## CharlesBronson (Jan 26, 2006)

Large collection of Bf-110 guncams attacking bombers...and no is not the same that was posted already  .


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## evangilder (Jan 26, 2006)

Nice video. Good aerial shots.


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## Gnomey (Jan 26, 2006)

Good video CB!


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## CharlesBronson (Jan 26, 2006)

Well with this I am out, I exausted my collection of germans guncams...  


But I keep searching.


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## Erich (Feb 4, 2006)

CB all those kills came from Bf 109G's and Fw 190's as I have that same footage. Propaganda footage from Deutsche Wochenschau.

the last kill from angriff von hinten Fw 190A-8 1944 .......


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 9, 2006)

Tell that to the Dr Goebbels not me


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## CharlesBronson (Dec 25, 2006)

Messerchmitt Me-110 bring down a sturdy Ilyushin Il-2.


Wochenschau-Archiv


Left clik only.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 25, 2006)

Vid did not play grrrr.....


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## CharlesBronson (Dec 25, 2006)

Hmmm...probably you need to install the latter Windows Media, I am using that with Windows Xp and it work well.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 25, 2006)

I am up to date... Ill try it again...

Just keeps on saying connecting to media... Then says ready, click play and it goes back to connecting to media...


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## CharlesBronson (Dec 25, 2006)

Ugghh..that sucks, maybe some codec missing.

As a consolation I post this:


http://www.stv.ee/~zakalev/German Newsreel- January1945.mpg


It have some guncams of Stukas G attaking russian tanks in the end.

Right clik and save as...


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## Matt308 (Dec 26, 2006)

Great video. Note the resiliency of the IL2. Those had to be hits and the 7.7mm just couldn't bring her down.


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## CharlesBronson (Dec 26, 2006)

Well...the Me-110 had a couple of cannons too.


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## CharlesBronson (Jan 2, 2007)

Stukas "D" attacking russian ground targets..and taking some flak too.

Wochenschau-Archiv


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## CharlesBronson (Jan 9, 2007)

_Einsatzflughafen der Reichsverteidiger_...Flying action of the Reich defenders.


Wochenschau-Archiv


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## CharlesBronson (Jan 24, 2007)

EDITED ( VIDEO DELETED BY YOUTUBE)


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## Hollywood (Feb 2, 2007)

I'm sorry for replying to this thread but after watching the guncam action and it being so dramatic and then seeing you guys talk about the download times I'm dumbfounded(or maybe just DUMB). It took me all of ONE MINUTE to download it, and you guys could take so much longer to get to enjoy it, I just wanted to point out how much DSL is REALLY worth.........


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## lesofprimus (Feb 2, 2007)

Aces High Video bt Iron Maiden... Pretty good mixed with Pearl Hrbour BOB footage...

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUK6ScAeFKE_


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 9, 2007)

> It took me all of ONE MINUTE to download it, and you guys could take so much longer to get to enjoy it, I just wanted to point out how much DSL is REALLY worth....



It worth for sure, I have 2mb and it download in 1 min 30 seconds.



> Aces High Video bt Iron Maiden... Pretty good mixed with Pearl Hrbour BOB footage...
> YouTube - Iron Maiden Ace's High




Sorry my ignorance but I dont see any german guncam footage in there.


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 7, 2007)

Stuka using his 37 mm guns against russian landing boats in the Kuban bridgehead. very good one. 


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU6OK1zSxKg_=


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## Udet (Mar 7, 2007)

Holy!!!!!

The weapon was extremely powerful.

Charlie, are they positive that´s Rudel performing the attack?

Whatever...it bears the hallmark of top professionals; notice how it first overshoots, but the aim is corrected and adjusted before passing the target then it hits the mark.

Impressive. Top flyers in action.


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 7, 2007)

I am not positive, Rudel is named by the guy who uploaded it in youtube, I just heard from the comentator the word "landungboot" "brukenkopf" wich is "landing boat" "bridge head"



> The weapon was extremely powerful


.

Indeed in the minute 0:23, 0:35 and 1:19 you can see the boats blewing up.


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## Erich (Mar 7, 2007)

remember it is Deutsche Wochenschau propaganda footage, it could be any StG unit Panzerstaffel with G-1's/G-2's and may have absolutely nothing to do with Rudel. Probably used HE instead of the tungsten cored rounds


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 7, 2007)

Agree, but just to note:



> On February 10th of 1943, Hans Rudel flew his 1000th mission and became a national hero to the German public.Rudel was then posted to the new special "Panzerjagdkommando Weiss" unit formed at Briansk to test newly developed tank-busting version of Ju-87 D-3.Modified Stuka armed with two Rheinmetall-Borsig 37mm (BK) Flak 18 guns (each mounted in special canopy under each wing with 6 rounds of ammunition) was developed at the Luftwaffe's experimental station at Rechlin (near Neustrelitz, Germany). Prototypes were used at first against Soviet landing crafts in the Black Sea and in the space of three weeks, Rudel destroyed 70 such boats





> Probably used HE instead of the tungsten cored rounds



Yes, that munition would be more suitable against the thin steel plate of that boats, using hartkern ammo would be a real waste of expensive tugsten.


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## Matt308 (Mar 7, 2007)

Great pic!


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## Erich (Mar 7, 2007)

well lets look to see that there are at least 12 -15 in the Panzerstaffel Weiß

in any case excellent footage to note


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## hitoshi (Mar 9, 2007)

Holy crap! That 'cannon-bird' footage is INCREDIBLE!!!! I've watched alot of stuka tank-buster footage but have never seen that. Can some kind soul ,if possible post that footage in a WMV file? I would love to save it to disk 8)


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## Gnomey (Mar 9, 2007)

Here you go...


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 9, 2007)

Saved , thanks Gnomey.


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## hitoshi (Mar 9, 2007)

Gnomey. Your a champion! Thankyou!


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## Gnomey (Mar 10, 2007)

No worries.


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 11, 2007)

Another collection of guncams, some of clips are already posted in here but note the clips in the minutes *1:10, 1:20 and 1:35.*


The first is attack is against Spitifre, probably a recce variant, the british pilots is caught by surprize no evading manouvers attemped. The guncam probably belongs to a Me-262 , observe the almost instant effect of the Mine ammo, the Spit almost disapeared in a burst of flames. The *190 meters* caption was superimposed when the 16mm film was revealed, surely for training purposes.


The one in the minute 1:20 is against a B-25. note the invation strips painted over the "amerikanishe" bomber.

And the last one is shooting a Liberator, also in here seems to be caught by 30 mm cannons, the B-24 right wing was copletely destroyed.


EDITED ( VIDEO DELETED BY YOUTUBE)


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## Erich (Mar 11, 2007)

I have these gun cams, the Spit is caught by an Fw 190A-8

the Libs are hit by SturmFW's the first one in the right wing on 27 September 1944 of the 445th bg (this was on our old web-site back in 99-2001 the others with the range meter showing by SturmFw's for a training class. M- Geshcoss taking the heck out of the B-24's both 2cm and 3cm.

there are no gun cams from Me 262A-1a's in this selection


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 11, 2007)

> I have these gun cams, the Spit is caught by an Fw 190A-8




That was a high flying Fw, the Spitfire had a superior ceiling.


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## Erich (Mar 11, 2007)

you cannot tell what alt the RAF fighter is flying. besides the 4 30mm's of the Me 262 would be central hits and the a/c would be flying at too high a speed to get that many pops on the spit before it overflew


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 12, 2007)

I know, is just a feeling that I have. Note how the film tremble when the pilot pull the trigger, wich is consistently with a camera put in between the cannons, like the Me-262 layout.


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## Udet (Mar 15, 2007)

Charlie or Erich:

Watch this video showing several guncamera shots...what plane is the one you can take a look in on minute 3:58/4:01, a twin engined plane getting hit; i do not think i can tell what plane is it. Does not seem German. What you think?


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdQc73e39OE_


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## Matt308 (Mar 15, 2007)

You mean this one Udet? I too can't figure out the dihedral of the aircraft. Looks kinda like an A-20, but not quite right.


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## Udet (Mar 16, 2007)

Matt, that is correct., that´s the plane.

As i said it does not seem German...of course most of these films are not of sufficient quality to help you getting little details;still it seems pretty much obvious there are no Luftwaffe markings on the wings of this craft. 

It got pretty well slammed as shown on the camera film and it went down.

Like you Matt, i also i thought of a USAAF medium bomber, but what type??


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## deanberch (Mar 16, 2007)

The P47 footage is fantastic. Must have been a hellava dogfight.


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## comiso90 (Mar 16, 2007)

Udet said:


> Matt, that is correct., that´s the plane.
> 
> As i said it does not seem German...of course most of these films are not of sufficient quality to help you getting little details;still it seems pretty much obvious there are no Luftwaffe markings on the wings of this craft.
> 
> ...



looks like an A-26 invader to me


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## comiso90 (Mar 16, 2007)

the only rear view i could find


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## lesofprimus (Mar 16, 2007)

Different tail....


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## Udet (Mar 16, 2007)

So it seems we have interesting stuff here...if not a A-26, B-25 or B-26, then what the hell is it? A British medium bomber?

If we wonder about a potential German plane, you can dismiss off hand any of the zerstörern as well as all the medium bombers; not a Ju 52 transport either. Also from the color photos i have from Luftwaffe twin engined craft, this RLM pattern does not seem to fit with any German type, but as i said, that caption should have been enough to show the Luftwaffe crosses on both wings, but Erich should be the one to handle this department as well.

Material to beef up the "Aircraft Identification" thread.


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## alpino1977 (Mar 16, 2007)

I'm sure this isn't a A-26

it seems a Japanese Betty bomber, it has a tail gunner, see that the tail fin is and wide and round-shaped see also the huge width of the fuselage


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 18, 2007)

Agree, is a Jap aircraft, that is because is a mixed guncams compilation.


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## bigZ (Mar 18, 2007)

I thought it was a Betty too. I know its a sim but its close to the guncam image.


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## tpikdave (Mar 23, 2007)

Japanese, you can see the meatballs if you look hard.


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## tpikdave (Mar 23, 2007)

I love my 6mbps DSL even if I only get 5. I am 17,000ft from the CO.


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 23, 2007)

Yet another B-17 get attacked by Fw-190.:



_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd_oM82x9vs_


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## Milos Sijacki (Mar 23, 2007)

good video!!!


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 2, 2007)

Luftwaffe fighters in Russia attacking SB-2s and polikarpov I-16.

EDITED ( VIDEO DELETED BY YOUTUBE)


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## tpikdave (Sep 2, 2007)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> i'm connected at 115.2Kbps..............



No such speed @dialup connections. 115 is an arbitrary speed set as a top limit at a time when commonplace broadband was non-existent. There is also no such thing as 56k ......52k is probably the max for dialup. 

I hope you have access to broadband soon!


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## tpikdave (Sep 2, 2007)

CharlesBronson

Very cool gun camera stuff.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 5, 2007)

Thanks.

JG26 guncameras, Channel front, 1942.

EDITED ( VIDEO DELETED BY YOUTUBE)


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## tpikdave (Sep 6, 2007)

Pretty one sided, Wonder if that one could have been a bit propagandized ??? 

Still fascinating to watch tho!


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 6, 2007)

> Pretty one sided, Wonder if that one could have been a bit propagandized



Obviously yes, those are extracted from "Die Deustche Wochenschau" the official german WW2 newsreel, the guncam are real nevertheless.


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## SoD Stitch (Sep 6, 2007)

tpikdave said:


> No such speed @dialup connections. 115 is an arbitrary speed set as a top limit at a time when commonplace broadband was non-existent. There is also no such thing as 56k ......52k is probably the max for dialup.
> 
> I hope you have access to broadband soon!



Gotta love my T-1 . . . running at 100Mbps right now; video took about two minutes to download.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 7, 2007)

Bf-109 engaging p-40s in Africa, 1941.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxLNBLuhfDM_


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## Udet (Sep 7, 2007)

Charlie,

Brutal video you posted showing the B-17 getting hit -also the German pilot... a hot shooter-...if the tail gunner was there, at the tail guns, poor guy...he was surely reduced to a smokey bloody pulp.

Do you live in Buenos Aires? I will be there next week. Have to see what my Argentinian harem is up to...sure lots of conspiracies. )


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 7, 2007)

> Do you live in Buenos Aires? I will be there next week. Have to see what my Argentinian harem is up to...sure lots of conspiracies



No, I live in Cordoba, were the argentine airplanes are made.
Argentinian harem..? hmmm I think that is too much. ..... 


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmUucEyjcnI_


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## tpikdave (Sep 8, 2007)

Its pretty easy for us to sit back and watch young men inside of planes being butchered by cannon fire. It would not be so easy if they were our fathers or brothers. It happened to both sides and I will be the first to admit that its an awe inspiring experience to watch these combats, but I try to keep a bit of heart, and respect reserved for these young (at the time) people who died in horrible and tragic ways to do what they thought was right. 

Just an old dog sounding off!


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## Vidar_1 (Sep 8, 2007)

A word of caution for those of you having dial up modems. I think many of you have this before. It's a compilation of 20 German gun cams that has been posted many times in different forums. Try this link at YouTube and see if you have seen it before. If not, then DL it. It's a good find.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjlN49szFOc_


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 8, 2007)

> Its pretty easy for us to sit back and watch young men inside of planes being butchered by cannon fire. It would not be so easy if they were our fathers or brothers. It happened to both sides and I will be the first to admit that its an awe inspiring experience to watch these combats, but I try to keep a bit of heart, and respect reserved for these young (at the time) people who died in horrible and tragic ways to do what they thought was right.
> 
> Just an old dog sounding off!



Well, I dont remember any post of mine being disrispectful with the ww2 veterans/victims, if was so I apologize.


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## tpikdave (Sep 8, 2007)

CharlesBronson



> Well, I dont remember any post of mine beig disrispectful with the ww2 veterans/victims, if was so I apologize.



Oh, no, that wasn't it at all. I just wanted to convey how tough it must have been for those who were on the receiving end. This forum and those on it are as respectful of history as could be asked for, so my apologies in return. 

When I am in IL2 I am just as mean and deadly as is required!!!!


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 9, 2007)

Ok.

One more then. BF-109 destroying some russiain fighter, I am not sure but it looks like a Mig-3.

EDITED ( VIDEO DELETED BY YOUTUBE)


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 18, 2007)

A lot of guncams of the 1939-42 period here:

Luftwaffe Fighter Aircraft 1939 to 1942


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## CharlesBronson (Jan 30, 2009)

Me-110 guncam in operation Barbarossa, strafing aerodrome and shooting down an aircraft, I am not sure but I think the russian twin engines aircraft atacked is a Lisunov, the soviet DC-3.

The units seems to be the ZG 26.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaAHyri3QFY_


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## Matt308 (Feb 2, 2009)

Nice one CB.


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 2, 2009)

Thanks, one more, the JG 1 against B-17, as usual the capacity to absorb punishment is remarkable in the Flying Fortress.

Wochenschau-Archiv


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## Matt308 (Feb 2, 2009)

Wow. Interesting to see that Luftwaffe tactics were to destroy stragglers as opposed to taking them out of the fight and focus upon other bombers. Probably sheer adrenalin in the fight. I can fully understand that stragglers represented easy prey. But if you count German fighter intercepts BEFORE USAF targets, it makes more sense to just take the B-17s out of the bomber formation. If these guncams are post objective, then it appears these guncams are focusing on reducing bomber crews and bomber resources.

Perhaps the sheer fear of combat is weighing in here. Those are powerful scenes, CB. Very powerful.


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 3, 2009)

Sure that was the objetive, but let me say that german pilots accuracy in that footage is really awful, a lot of shots going nowhere.


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 4, 2009)

JG 3 ( sturm) vs B-24 liberators, note in this video that the acuraccy of the pilots improves with relation of my earlier clips, the shooting range is closer and the widespread use of 30mm guns caused serious damage to the bombers.


Wochenschau-Archiv


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## Erich (Feb 4, 2009)

can you post this last vid CB in a different format for some stupid reason the web-site closes the vid on me. if it is the vid I think it is and I have owned it for some 20 plus years it may not be from JG 3 SturmFw's

E ` thanks if possible


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 4, 2009)

Is the newsreel Europa woche Nr 73, I am downloading it, let see if I can upload it later


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 4, 2009)

Lucky You, I did it: 8) 


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5TICAz7nPg_


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## Erich (Feb 4, 2009)

thanks CB, I'll be back to explain this video further, it's not all Fw's obviously the rear attacks are a definate Sturm attack though........


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 4, 2009)

No problem, It is from JG 3 or not ?


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## Erich (Feb 5, 2009)

IV.Sturm/JG 3 are represented when they land and do a fly over their airfield. 7-744 after the battle, Walter Dahl of JG 300 comes in to congratulate the pilots of Sturm-JG 3.

I have the cine films of several Sturm-FW's that are shown in the destruction of the Liberators shown the Fw 190 A-8 that flys from left to right is actually much larger on my cine film and I have slowed it way down to view whether it has a rumpfband or not, but cannot see on so yes it could be a JG 3 Sturm or JG 4 even after August of 44 as JG 4 sometimes did not have the Reichbands painted on. Interspersed with that of course are the typical Fw's from other units in different variants and also Bf 109G's and their pilots pressing the trigger button


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 5, 2009)

Nice, nice, good info there Erich.

At that time the sturmstaffel 1 was disbanded right ?


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## Erich (Feb 5, 2009)

CB

most of the Sturm-st. 1 went to form the new 11.Sturm/JG 3 unit on April 15, 1944.

the rest of Sturm-st. 1 formed the cadre for the new II.Sturm/JG 4 in August of 44.

E ~


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks. 

Othe more, attacking B-17 and B-24s ( that comes after the anoyying Galland with FW-190 and speech clip)

Wochenschau-Archiv


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 8, 2009)

FW-190 strafing ground targets in January 1th 1945, not sure what type is the twin engine parked, looks like a B-25.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvpnaiA5Hro_


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## CharlesBronson (Mar 8, 2009)

Luftwaffe fighters vs bombers, 1944, some clips are alredy posted, but note the last one wich includes a pursuit of damaged B-24 liberator at low altitude, the Liberator turrets blazing with gunfire, very action charged.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lwx-zcc_jDs_


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## tpikdave (Mar 29, 2009)

Sure wish my old eyes could see better on this one! Also wish our airmen were treated that well in Nam.


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## Erich (Mar 29, 2009)

the low to the ground B-24 is suppose to be from the gun stills of 109's during the defense of Ploesti

did you note the long range shots on the rear of B-24's from Bf 110G-2's with 3.7cm Flak 18's ?


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## CharlesBronson (May 8, 2009)

> did you note the long range shots on the rear of B-24's from Bf 110G-2's with 3.7cm Flak 18's ?



I did, quite interesting, too bad I dont have it in better quality.

Westland Lysander sprayed with german bullets.


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## Tham (Jun 11, 2009)

I replied this guy's post here in Youtube about the
poor performance of the Quad .50 AA gun compared
to the Flakvierling's MG151/20, citing an effective
range of at least 1,500 m, based on the South African
NTW-20 sniper rifle which used the MG151's cartridge.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4Y9hsbQC0k_

Denel NTW-20: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article

20 mm Sniper rifle - Military Photos


I didn't realize that the MG151 had an effective range
of only 400 meters ? I had always thought that typical
ranges of 20 mm cannons were from 1,500 to 2,000 meters.

I had always thought that German single-engined fighters, 
such as the Wildesaus, when making standard stern attacks, 
were able to engage British bombers from way beyond the 
range of the latter's .303s, which had a maximum effective
range of 400 yards.


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## Erich (Jun 11, 2009)

well engaging at night with single fighters was close at hand not out at 600 yards which may have been the case with day time operations. LW fighter tactics were to get in close to ensure a kill


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## CharlesBronson (Jun 14, 2009)

> I replied this guy's post here in Youtube about the
> poor performance of the Quad .50 AA gun compared
> to the Flakvierling's MG151/20, citing an effective
> range of at least 1,500 m, based on the South African
> NTW-20 sniper rifle which used the MG151's cartridge.



The differences lay in that the Mauser MG 151 and the 2 cm Flak 38 did not use the same type of ammunition. The flak 20x138b catrigde has more muzzle velocity thus greater effective range.


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## CharlesBronson (Jun 14, 2009)

CharlesBronson said:


> Thanks, one more, the JG 1 against B-17, as usual the capacity to absorb punishment is remarkable in the Flying Fortress.
> 
> 
> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fSQzjPl15g_


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## CharlesBronson (Jun 17, 2009)

Me-110G attacking bombers, several types and configurations with droptanks, aditional 20, 30 and 37mm guns are seen.

Extracted from the Deutsche Wochenschau 705, march 1944.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1BzTXQCSBs_


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## CharlesBronson (Jun 26, 2009)

JG 54 ace Hans Phillip guncamera, shooting down a russian fighter, apparently a MiG-3.


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 26, 2009)

CharlesBronson said:


> Me-110G attacking bombers, several types and configurations with droptanks, aditional 20, 30 and 37mm guns are seen.



Looks like there were some Me-210/410 in it as well. Excellents posts CB!


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## CharlesBronson (Jun 28, 2009)

Thanks, a little more, Walther Oesau and Egon Mayer guncameras february 1942, mostly attacks against spitfires.


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## CharlesBronson (Jul 2, 2009)

Guncamera of 20mm armed Stuka strafing russian vehicles, dw 687, late 1943.


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 2, 2009)

OUCH!


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## johnbr (Jul 3, 2009)

That had to hurt.


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## 20317 (Jul 5, 2009)

exactly what im looking for, frontline ww2 footage.

thanks muchly.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 23, 2009)

Messerschmitt vs P-40 tomahawks and kittyhawks, late 1941. extreme close-up of the british fighter in the last frames.


_(video removed, closed account)_


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## syscom3 (Sep 23, 2009)

CharlesBronson said:


> Thanks, a little more, Walther Oesau and Egon Mayer guncameras february 1942, mostly attacks against spitfires.



At the 28 second mark, what were the ground crew attaching to the pilots lower leg?


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 23, 2009)

Is a belt with cartrigdes for the pilot Leutchpistole, flare gun.


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## 20317 (Sep 26, 2009)

good god thats incredibly close.

collisions must have been regular.


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## 20317 (Sep 26, 2009)

some awesome accuracy in PHILLIPS shooting.

no spray of tracer in a 200m circle, visible strikes around cockpit and wingroot.

looks good.


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 28, 2009)

> good god thats incredibly close.
> 
> collisions must have been regular



Definately it was, you actually can see the P-40 stressed skin wrinkles in the last frames, apparently the german pilot throttle down to no overshoot , not a lot of good hits though.


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## CharlesBronson (Nov 2, 2009)

Henschel hs-129 strafing russian army horse carriages.


_( video remove, closed account)_


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## JP Vieira (Nov 3, 2009)

Impressive stuff


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## CharlesBronson (Nov 22, 2016)

Me-110G vs sturmovik ( claimed as a "fighter" in the german newsreel)



subtitles created by me.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## michaelmaltby (Nov 22, 2016)

Great footage, well-shot, great find, thanks CB .... the Bf 110s look good

Reactions: Bacon Bacon:
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## CharlesBronson (Nov 22, 2016)

Thanks , one more, Walther Oesau guncameras, october 1941.



Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


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## Old Wizard (Nov 22, 2016)




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## Gnomey (Nov 22, 2016)

Good video!


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## CharlesBronson (Nov 23, 2016)

Thanks, the following seems to be compilation of guncameras from january and february 44, mostly firing against Bombers heading towards Berlin, newsreel aired in march of that year. Images of shot down allied craft on the ground and captured crew could also be seen.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Old Wizard (Nov 23, 2016)




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## Wayne Little (Nov 24, 2016)

Good stuff..


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## CharlesBronson (Nov 27, 2016)

Thanks. A little more found and cut today from the "Descheg Monatschau Nr 12" newsreel. Series of "eastern" guncameras, strafing trucks and then firing against a fighter wich seems a Yak-1 and finally hitting a Il-2.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Old Wizard (Nov 27, 2016)




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## Wurger (Nov 28, 2016)




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## CharlesBronson (Nov 30, 2016)

Thanks friends.

The following is from january 1944 and seems to be a compilation of Me-110 and Me-410 guncameras, all shooting against B-17 and B-24, is a rare newsreel because it also includes an interview with "Zerstörer" pilots.



Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


The tube hold by a ground mechanic at 2:31 is the 20mm Mauser MG 151 quick change barrel


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## CharlesBronson (Jun 22, 2017)

A compilation of guncameras emited in mid-1944 for the eastern occupied territories, some seen here already some not, sorry the lack of subtitles, my ukrainian is a bit rusty


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## Old Wizard (Jun 23, 2017)




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## Wayne Little (Jul 2, 2017)

Cool.


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## Gnomey (Jul 2, 2017)

Good stuff!


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