# CAC CA-15 Kangaroo



## Desert Fox (Jan 22, 2007)

I was browsing the internet recently, and I came across an aircraft that I had never heard of before, the CA-15 Kangaroo. This was a piston engined fighter created and designed entirely in Australia. It reached a speed of 502.2 mph, this is faster than most first generation jet fighters. It was however scrapped by the RAAF. I was wondering if anyone had either heard of this aircraft or had any further information on it.
It does bear a strong resemblance to the P-51, but it was a totally different aircraft, with different dimensions and performance.
Here is a picture:


----------



## HealzDevo (Jan 22, 2007)

I had never heard about this one. Intriguing...


----------



## Desert Fox (Jan 22, 2007)

I read about it on Wikipedia, I was very surprised. Australia isnt known for its aircraft designing prowess. To think that we created probably the best piston engined fighter ever, what an achievement!


----------



## joebong (Jan 22, 2007)

What a freak!. Looks like a P 51 crossed with a halibut.


----------



## Desert Fox (Jan 22, 2007)

As long as it flies


----------



## joebong (Jan 22, 2007)

Desert Fox said:


> As long as it flies



No doubt, It's sad some of these types were never allowed to show their stuff. My latest thread concerns nasty looking AC, many are most venerable machines indeed.


----------



## Gnomey (Jan 22, 2007)

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-requests/ca-15-a-6505.html


----------



## Wildcat (Jan 22, 2007)

Yeah we were only discussing this a/c the other week..


----------



## Desert Fox (Jan 22, 2007)

really? cool. ill check it out.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 23, 2007)

joebong said:


> What a freak!. Looks like a P 51 crossed with a halibut.



i don't think she's that bad...........


----------



## HealzDevo (Jan 23, 2007)

Certainly is a great looking aircraft looking like it is based on something that works with improvements...


----------



## Matt308 (Jan 25, 2007)

Cmon, its beautiful. Powerfully graceful. Looks like a P-51 steriods and reminds me for some reason of the turoprop Tucano or Pilatus PC-9.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 26, 2007)

tucano's better looking, the CA-15's cockpit looks too small........


----------



## Matt308 (Jan 28, 2007)

Looks faster than **** to me.


----------



## R Pope (Jan 28, 2007)

Actually looks more like a Martin-Baker MB-5.


----------



## Thumper (Jan 30, 2007)

was a bloody good aircraft...stayed in the prototype for a lonnnnnnnng time

jets made it obselete and as usual the AUS government didnt wanna play


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 31, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> Looks faster than **** to me.



if you ask me she has the look of being too big to be fast- contempary fighters like the Sea Fury looked not much bigger than WWII fighters but exuded power from every crevace, i look at this and can't help but see a smaller merlin with a lot of empty space in that fusilage


----------



## Matt308 (Jan 31, 2007)

It's the cockpit. It's deceiving.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 31, 2007)

just look at the camera man having to strain his neck looking up to take the photo!


----------



## Wildcat (Jan 31, 2007)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> if you ask me she has the look of being too big to be fast- contempary fighters like the Sea Fury looked not much bigger than WWII fighters but exuded power from every crevace, i look at this and can't help but see a smaller merlin with a lot of empty space in that fusilage



The Sea Fury was faster, however the CA-15 was quite quick as well. See the other thread for performances.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 3, 2007)

what i meant was the CA-15 looks huge compared to WWII fighters and doesn't look that powerful, whereas the SeaFury does...........


----------



## Desert Fox (Feb 3, 2007)

True, the CA-15 wasnt exactly the sleekest of aircraft like the Sea Fury was, but it was still a damn good plane


----------



## GregP (Feb 4, 2007)

The CAC-15 was designed initially for the R-2800 radial, but the U.S.A. declined to supply them, so it was adapted for the Rolls-Royce Griffon of 2,035 HP. First flight 1946. Australia realized the future belonged to jets and abandoned the project.

The 505 mph was achieved in a shallow dive. It amde 448 mph in level flight and military power. Only 1 was made.

Probably ranks with the Martin-Baker MB.5 as the best piston fighter never built.


----------



## breadroll (Feb 4, 2007)

For more info on not just this amazing aircraft, but two other indigenous australian aircraft, look for a book called "Wirraway, Boomerang, CA-15 in Australian Service' by Stewart Wilson. This book is an absolute gold mine of info on these aircraft. The -15 is on of my all-time favourite aircraft. I think it might still be available for purchase on Australian Aviation magazine, but I'm not 100% certain. I bought it the day it came out in the paper shop when I was 13 (1991).


----------



## abramsteve (Feb 4, 2007)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> what i meant was the CA-15 looks huge compared to WWII fighters and doesn't look that powerful, whereas the SeaFury does...........



Sure does look big, but so was the P-47. To me it looks big, mean and sleak, I love it! I read about this one a few years ago in a RAAF book, Im gonna head over that other thread to check out what been said.


----------



## Matt308 (Feb 4, 2007)

Does one exist today either static or (less likely) flying?


----------



## Wildcat (Feb 6, 2007)

Nope unfortunately not.


----------



## wombat40 (Apr 2, 2009)

The speed referred to was achieved after leveling from a shallow dive over Melbourne, however a level flight of 448 mph was achieved routinely. Most Americans I have discussed this aircraft with like to point out the resemblance to the P51 (license built as the CA 17 with the same type 61 Griffon as fitted to the CA 15). However, I have seen some excellent scale 3 view drawings online comparing it to a P 51. The resemblance it barely superficial (bubble canopy of a different shape, long nose but different shape and a similar intake beneath). The aircraft is larger than the P51/CA 17 in all respects and the general consensus among the test pilots involved regarded it as a superior Griffon installation to both the Spitfire and the P 51. Sadly it was made in Australia, in any other country it would have ended up in a museum, here we scrapped it.


----------



## wombat40 (Apr 2, 2009)

oh, and as ex Fleet Air Arm airmen, I can assure you it was in fact FASTER than the Sea Fury


----------



## wombat40 (Apr 2, 2009)

oh yes, sorry guys, if I make that kind of assertion I should back it up. I see a Wkikpedia entry giving the Sea Fury speed as 485 mph, this is I believe fanciful (maybe after a dive, a la CA 15) but I see other entries on other sites and my own books giving the Sea Fury a top speed in level flight as 435 mph. During my service I managed to speak to several senior officers (ex Sea Fury pilots) who stated an operational top speed of between 430 and 440 mph. I think the accolades went to the Hawker design because for a long time the CA 15 was simply dead and buried. If I was a millionaire+ I would love to commission a replica


----------



## Butters (Apr 2, 2009)

The CA-15 has rather brutal good looks, but the MB.5 is flat-out, drop-dead gorgeous! 

And it would have shortened the war if it had been available. Who could shoot at something that pretty? ;o)


----------



## wombat40 (Apr 2, 2009)

As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, beside the CA 15, the Mustang looks a little effeminite


----------



## red admiral (Apr 3, 2009)

wombat40 said:


> oh, and as ex Fleet Air Arm airmen, I can assure you it was in fact FASTER than the Sea Fury



The 485mph quoted speed for the Hawker Fury is correct. This was for the first aircraft, fitted with a Sabre engine and radiators in the wing leading edges. Max speed for the Sea Fury X with Centaurus was 460mph (probably slowed a far amount when carrying underwing tanks and racks to the 430-440mph you quote). There's some nice performance charts here.


----------



## timshatz (Apr 3, 2009)

wombat40 said:


> As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, beside the CA 15, the Mustang looks a little effeminite



Looks very similar in design. Gotta be some similarities in the design. However, it could be that the math just brought the engineers to the same place. 

The CA looks like the Mustang's Husband.


----------



## Heinz (Apr 3, 2009)

Certainly a favourite of mine.

Someone in the thread referred to the Gov not wanting to pay for them to go into production, I think it was more the fact the jet age had well and truly come in. At the time I think Australia was receiving its first lot Meteors and Vamp's and bad timing brought its demise. I've got an article about it in 'Flightpath'. Good read.


----------



## mkloby (Apr 3, 2009)

timshatz said:


> Looks very similar in design. Gotta be some similarities in the design. However, it could be that the math just brought the engineers to the same place.
> 
> The CA looks like the Mustang's Husband.


----------



## wombat40 (Apr 3, 2009)

Looking back over the drawings I first posted, the biggest similarity appears to be in the wing, at least in plan. It would be interesting if anyone has any drawings dating from it first concept (radial engine). The reason I state this is that as I have said, P51 were ultimately license built here as the CA 17 (griffon) and I am wondering if the wing was modified to copy the P51/CA17 laminar flow design?
The first I ever saw of this aircraft was in my early teens (early 70's) in a British magazine called "Aircraft Illustrated" (sadly I lost all my copies in the Clarence River flood of 1974). It was written up in an article entitled "Antipodean Venture" there was one photo, of the crashed prototype lying on its belly, and then speculation as to whether or not it was the fastest (inconclusive).
The other time it was mentioned was in the press about the same time, a large mural (no longer displayed) was painted for the aeroplane hall in the Australian War Memorial (if you do not know, there was and still is an entire Lancaster in this hall plus other aircraft, so it was a big mural in a big room, saw it, the mural, twice)
The rendering of the CA 15 can only be described as insignificant.
Original test pilot's report is still available (National Archive). As to whether is it was the fastest or among the fastest or COULD HAVE BEEN the fastest is conjectural. There is no mention (that I recall) of a genuine high speed test or combat boost ever being carried out. I use the words COULD HAVE BEEN because the fitment of a Griffon 61 was interim, it was actually proposed to use the still under development Griffon 120. The 120 went the same way as the CA 15, due to the jet age.
As for what the Sea Fury did, in practice, theory, stripped or loaded, it still was able to down one MIG (Lt Peter Carmichael, HMS Ocean) so what ever it could do, it did well enough.
Oh, and our A4Gs were supersonic too, but only if you flew them in a way that they were never flown in operationally. 
Sorry this is so long winded guys, I have had a really big cup of coffee this morning


----------



## Wildcat (Apr 4, 2009)

wombat40 said:


> It would be interesting if anyone has any drawings dating from it first concept (radial engine).



From the stewart Wilson book...


----------



## red admiral (Apr 4, 2009)

CAC-15 development


----------



## wombat40 (Apr 4, 2009)

Thanks for the drawings guys, so the first concept was for a different wing (in plan form). It is my understanding that Wackett had a huge input into the design (it was his proposal to go with the radial) so it still leaves the question open as to whether or not the wing design was ultimately a copy of the P51 (drawn from combat experience and in my view very likely) or "an arrival at the same design using the math" as has been put. In any case, what a shame, I would still like to be rich enough and eccentric enough to commission a replica (lol)


----------



## wombat40 (Apr 4, 2009)

http://dbdesignbureau.buckmasterfamily.id.au/images/cac_ca15_thumb.jpg


----------



## fastglass3 (Mar 15, 2010)

I hear that Ian Baker from Adavnced Aero Components, Sydney Australia- is starting to construct a CA15 Kangaroo biult from original blue prints, also is restoring A46-90 Boomerang..


----------



## Wildcat (Mar 16, 2010)

I hope so, that would be awesome!


----------



## parsifal (Mar 16, 2010)

Hi wombat, nice to hear from you. Am ex RAN myself. hope you enjoy your sojourn on the forum


----------



## pinsog (Mar 16, 2010)

Japanese officer: "What happened to your flight?"

Japanese pilot: "We were jumped by a pack of Kangaroos.........."


----------



## DEAD_MEAT (Mar 24, 2011)

Yes it looks surprisingly like a P51.

The Kangaroo was designed in Australia at the end of WW II, only 1 prototype was built.

It attained a speed of 502 mph so was arguably the fastest piston engine fighter in the world (which gets P51 groupies upset).

It never went into production, basically the jet age overtook it. So its an interesting footnote in History . . . what may have been if it came into service early 1945.

Australia decided to keep it's existing fleet of P51D which lasted till we met the MIG 15 in Korea.

Have a look at Virtual RAAF website.


----------



## parsifal (Mar 25, 2011)

Some sources puts maximum speed as low as 448 Mph....thats still faster than a P-51, but slower than a Ta 152 or a Fury


----------



## Shortround6 (Mar 25, 2011)

The Speed of 502 was achieved in a dive according to some sources. 448 is faster than many Mustangs although not by much but rather short of the P-51H s speed, considering that the Kangaroo is using a Griffon engine it's speed doesn't out of line one way or the other.


----------



## parsifal (Mar 25, 2011)

for australia we finished deciding to build the p-51 under licence, because it was argued this was cheaper. i think we should have built the Ca-15 instead anyway, and wore the extra cost. We could well have sold the type to emerging third world countries or israel. these countries for differeing reasons may have preferred our product over the imperialist american equipment...we would ahve been carving a name for ourselves with a distinctive and competitive piston engined fighter. 

Australia still managed to redesign the f-86, and re-engine it to produce the socalled avon sabre. if we had had a little more design and development expertise we may have taken that redesign process further than we did. today we would not have the capital to design a fighter by ourselves, but working with someone like the indians, or perhaps the Canadians, or even the US, we may have been able to undertake a fourth or fifth generation jet as a joint venture. it was all about prestige and carving a name for the country


----------



## tomo pauk (Mar 25, 2011)

It would've been interesting if Aussies were in cooperation with Brits on TSR project. Perhaps it would be less likely axed by Brittish government, and used by two (at least) air forces?

The coop with Canadians on Arrow offers another interesting possibility.


----------



## ProudKerman (Nov 15, 2015)

I wasn't aware of any drawings that existed, can anyone confirm this? 
Also its a longshot and maybe a bit out of place but does anyone know of any original drawings for the Woomera?


----------

