# F-22.....



## Lucky13 (Sep 11, 2014)

17 years since first flight in '97, thinking to myself, what the f...!?


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## soulezoo (Sep 12, 2014)

Yes. It's been awhile. 

I used to watch a lot of take off/landing of them at Kadena AB Okinawa along side the F-15's . Quite a difference in the two in terms of roll out, take-off length, AoA and noise. 

During the mock combats the eagle drivers told me on average it took 4 or 5 -15's to make a kill on a -22. Very impressive.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 12, 2014)

Had two of them parked at my work last month.


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## razor1uk (Sep 19, 2014)

Hard to believe it's that old, is that 17 yrs related to prototypes or their service acceptance date?

The birds don't look old do they, mind due, most of them were only built within the last 10 years or so I think, those wonderfully pictured ones seem of the younger members of its breed.
Great pics Adler 8)


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## Shinpachi (Sep 20, 2014)

F-22 should be the successor of F-15.
Single engined F-35 does not look attractive beside price issue.

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## Capt. Vick (Sep 20, 2014)

I think we should have built more of them. We are gonna need them when the aliens invade.


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## Gnomey (Sep 20, 2014)

Despite the length of time since the start of the run, she is still a really impressive aircraft and not half bad looking either...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 21, 2014)

Gnomey said:


> Despite the length of time since the start of the run, she is still a really impressive aircraft and not half bad looking either...



Even more impressive when you see her fly. Absolutely amazing.

Here is a few I took with a P-51D.


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## GrauGeist (Sep 21, 2014)

Hard to believe the F-22 is that old?

Hell, I'm still trying to figure out what the heck happened to the wobbly Goblin...


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## jtm55 (Oct 31, 2014)

Hi All

WOW!


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## GrauGeist (Oct 31, 2014)

jtm55 said:


> Hi All
> 
> WOW!


Did I miss something?


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## fubar57 (Oct 31, 2014)

GrauGeist said:


> Did I miss something?



I think the meds kicked in.

Geo


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## fubar57 (Oct 31, 2014)

Capt. Vick said:


> I think we should have built more of them. We are gonna need them when the aliens invade.



I think you're right. The F/A-18 was definitely outclassed in Independence Day

Geo

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## swampyankee (Nov 1, 2014)

The F-22 is, without a doubt, the best air superiority fighter ever to see service. The question is whether it's enough better than its stablemates to justify its cost (the same may be said of the F-35). I tend to think we should have bought more, but I also think that it's arguable that the defense budget is disproportionately high relative to the threats the US currently faces, although Putin and, to a lesser extent, China are making me rethink that (note: it's mainly Putin, secondarily China, with ISIS a distant third. The last is likely to be a long term pain in the butt, akin to the Shining Path, the FARC, INLA, etc, but not directly existential).


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## GrauGeist (Nov 1, 2014)

Russia and China both have considerable air assets, but ISIS shouldn't be much of an adversary.

If any one particular nation wanted to prove a a point about what happens to ground forces that do not possess the air above them, this would be it. A few random bombing runs being made at the present time isn't going to do much but annoy them.

*IF* we were to take the Allied air campaign (late 44 onward) from WWII and place it over Iraq/Syria right now, ISIS would be in serious trouble.


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## pbehn (Nov 1, 2014)

if its so stealthy how come so many photos?


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 2, 2014)

"On Sept. 17, the general not only confirmed that the escorting fighters were F-22 stealth fighters but also said that: “He [the Raptor pilot] flew under their aircraft [the F-4s] to check out their weapons load without them knowing that he was there, and then pulled up on their left wing and then called them and said ‘you really ought to go home."

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/f-22-raptors-taunted-iranian-fighter-jets-ab0dbf5707f


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## fubar57 (Nov 2, 2014)

Great story FBJ.

Geo

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## GrauGeist (Nov 13, 2014)

And then it gets a little more interesting...

The J-31 seen at the Zhuhai international airshow

China’s Newest Fighter Jet Looks Awfully Familiar, Raising Concerns From the Pentagon


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## GregP (Nov 13, 2014)

The Wobbly Goblin was in SERIOUS need of computer upgrades and was structurally somewhat suspect after a long time down low in turbulence, if some of the reports were correct. Maybe not. Most aircraft with 1970's - 1980's computer ARE in need of upgrades in that department.

The one that broke up during and airshow was an exception, there was a major piece of structure that was not attached properly with bolts inside the wing box and the wing came off in a high speed pass. Definitely not a typical failure, but the F-117 also was experiencing a LOT of fatigure at high speed down low and was in need of mid-life-upgrades including the engines. These were NOT going to be cheap, and neither are the alternative replacement F-35's. Whicj on eis better? Well, we KNOW what the F-117 could do and can only HOPE the F-35 does a good job. I don't like the F-35 at all myself and will say I think it is a turkey of the first magnitude. But the experience of F-35's operationally may prove a good one and we can only wait and see what this thing will really do in service. I know ONE thing, I can't canel it all on my own since I haven't been elected to anything that makes a difference there.

I knew three guys who flew F-117s and they loved what it could DO, but not how it flew. All were happy when they went back to other aircraft, at least in conversation with me.

When I was getting out of the serice, the early items were called Have Blue and Pave Blue and they resulted in the F-117 ... and I heard about these things in the mid-1970's in the USAF. That alone tells me they might well be due for retirement.

What does that say about the way our country feels about the B-52 and the U-2? Both are still operational!

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## Shinpachi (Nov 14, 2014)

GrauGeist said:


> And then it gets a little more interesting...
> 
> The J-31 seen at the Zhuhai international airshow
> 
> [/url]



I think the Chinese J-31 is showing their psychology very well.

Even infamous IJA or IJN purchased the western weapon licenses to understand mechanism perfectly and never showed their secret weapons until the war began because they were serious about fighting.

On the other hand, Chinese weapons not only look like imitations as ever but are introduced easily one after another. Such a style would be coming from their strong pride mixed with traditional complex against the western culture and technology. However, it is clear that they are not serious about fighting with the super power but only enjoying responses from it.

That would be good as long as they enjoy it but they should know it is not easy to survive in the international society.

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## swampyankee (Nov 17, 2014)

If there are any Pentagon planners who think that somebody else isn't going to get stealthy aircraft, I suggest that those planners are severely delusional.

Maxwell's equations aren't classified.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 17, 2014)

swampyankee said:


> Maxwell's equations aren't classified.



They're not, and there are other ways to make an aircraft stealthy as well.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 17, 2014)

swampyankee said:


> Maxwell's equations aren't classified.



They're not, and there are other ways to make an aircraft stealthy as well.


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## swampyankee (Nov 22, 2014)

FLYBOYJ said:


> They're not, and there are other ways to make an aircraft stealthy as well.



I worked on LO for a while, during the early phases of the LHX project. Quite a lot of the technical literature on radar cross section prediction had been translated from Russian.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 22, 2014)

swampyankee said:


> I worked on LO for a while, during the early phases of the LHX project. Quite a lot of the technical literature on radar cross section prediction had been translated from Russian.


True, but there's other ways of doing this, just sayin. I worked LO as well - F-117, F-22 and B-2

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## swampyankee (Nov 22, 2014)

FLYBOYJ said:


> True, but there's other ways of doing this, just sayin. I worked LO as well - F-117, F-22 and B-2



You almost certainly did much more of it than have I. I've done enough to know that it's not the panacea that some people claim it to be and that it doesn't require some mysterious science that is uniquely American: the Chinese or the Russians can develop stealth aircraft without stealing from the US. Of course, it's easier to do so if they do steal, so they (and everybody else) has an incentive to try to steal other's technologies. I suspect that's been true since Oog's tribe figured out how to put a stone point onto a spear.

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## GregP (Jan 15, 2015)

Some folks were wondering why the 17-year gestation period for the F-22. Among the items that caused such a long delay, the software is VERY high on the list. 

The F-22 has a God's eye view of the hemisphere in which it is flying, Each F-22 knows the state of fuel and weapons of each other F-22 in the air in that hemisphere. The thing can gly the mission by itself if the pilot is incapacitated, and then return home, land, amd park in the same parking space from which it departed. Debugging several million lines of code is NOT simple and, the thing is, each logical loop must be exercized and verified. 

Today, roughly 55 - 65% of the cost of a front-line fighter jet is software, comparted with 0% for anything in WWII. The pilot is something of a computer "super user" who is monitoring and exercising his highly mobiile and adrenaline-generating PC.

If 17 years was a long gestation, the Isralei Lavi development morphed into the Chinese J-10 in only 20 years, and it was FLYING in 1986. So the Chinese basically bought a flying aircraft and "improved it" for 20 years to get the J-10. No wonder they didn't want to start from scratch ...

The problem comes from trying desperately to shrink the abacus so calculations can be made faster. You can only fit so many midgets into a J-10 and they are all madly working their abacus and screaming out the answer to the pilot. With tripple redundancy, feeding them all is a monumental task, not to mention the holding tank for the outhouse. Several J-10's have come to grief when they suffered engine turbine blade damage from multiple chopstick hits, usually in pairs. Bamboo wouldn't be so bad, but carbon fiber chopsticks tend to get wedged into the bearings somehow.

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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 15, 2015)

GregP said:


> Some folks were wondering why the 17-year gestation period for the F-22. Among the items that caused such a long delay, the software is VERY high on the list.
> 
> The F-22 has a God's eye view of the hemisphere in which it is flying, Each F-22 knows the state of fuel and weapons of each other F-22 in the air in that hemisphere. The thing can gly the mission by itself if the pilot is incapacitated, and then return home, land, amd park in the same parking space from which it departed. Debugging several million lines of code is NOT simple and, the thing is, each logical loop must be exercized and verified.
> 
> ...



Hence the same arguement on the F-35. People still parrot the 2011 Rand Report and all the bad press put out by Pierre Spey, but yet many of those problems have been long corrected.


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## GregP (Jan 15, 2015)

I'm hoping you are right, Joe. Since we are going to field that thing, I hope it is a roaring success. 

I simply do NOT agree with spending the amount of money to develop it that we have spent, no matter what the end-item product does. It tells me that "concurrent development" is definitely NOT a way to go in the future, and that there needs to be a timline and cost ceiling that, if reached, will trigger automatic cancellation. If the allotted time is exceeded, then the project would be cancelled automatically. I would not set the timeline too tight, but 17 years for the F-22 was ridiculous and the timeline for the F-35 isn't exactly a record setter, either.

I have the distinct feeling that the timeline kept extending as the government kept adding changes and new capabilities to the wish list. For cost containment, I'd like to see a specification developed and then locked in stone. If some NEW computer capability or other capability comes down the pike, then price adding it to the existing fleet separately and continue to fly while the cost-to-benefit is agrued. If they REALLY need the new capability, then develop a new weapon with that capability.

We ought to have a weight target and when it is reached, then anything added would trigger removal of something else. How else can we get to a desired specific fuel fraction?

Somewhere there HAS to be a better way than what happened and is continuing to happen with the F-35 cost and development schedule.

Maybe someone out there can answer this for me?

Is the F-35 combat ready in all three of its variants RIGHT NOW? If so, how many per quarter are being delivered? How many is the UK flying right now? Are they in workup to operations or are they operational? How many of each variant are WE flying? Are they all (or at least mostly) operational? Has it participated in any simulated combat exercises multinationally? How did it do?

I have heard some things but am unsure of the real answers since most if not all of the hype comes from the manufacturer or the armed services and most of not all of the criticism comes from opponents who have an axe to grind with the program. It would be nice to see facts without all the embellishments the press gives them.

I KNOW the pilots like the airplane, but do they like it when other fighters are trying to find them and shoot them down in a wargame? Are they being flown in the wargame as they will be deployed in real life or will future planners hang ordnance under the wings and negate stealth all the way into a target and still expect good results agianst 5th-generation enemy fighters that have been designed to find and kill F-18s ... which is what the F-35 looks and performs like when weighted down with external ordnance? It doesn't get stealthy and aginle until all that underwing crap, including aux fuel tanks, is gone.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 15, 2015)

GregP said:


> I'm hoping you are right, Joe. Since we are going to field that thing, I hope it is a roaring success.
> 
> I simply do NOT agree with spending the amount of money to develop it that we have spent, no matter what the end-item product does. It tells me that "concurrent development" is definitely NOT a way to go in the future, and that there needs to be a timline and cost ceiling that, if reached, will trigger automatic cancellation. If the allotted time is exceeded, then the project would be cancelled automatically. I would not set the timeline too tight, but 17 years for the F-22 was ridiculous and the timeline for the F-35 isn't exactly a record setter, either.
> 
> *I have the distinct feeling that the timeline kept extending as the government kept adding changes and new capabilities to the wish list. For cost containment, I'd like to see a specification developed and then locked in stone. If some NEW computer capability or other capability comes down the pike, then price adding it to the existing fleet separately and continue to fly while the cost-to-benefit is agrued. If they REALLY need the new capability, then develop a new weapon with that capability*.


You hit the nail on the head with that one!


GregP said:


> We ought to have a weight target and when it is reached, then anything added would trigger removal of something else. How else can we get to a desired specific fuel fraction?
> 
> Somewhere there HAS to be a better way than what happened and is continuing to happen with the F-35 cost and development schedule.
> 
> ...



Thae navy version just passed carrier trials, this just in...

Lockheed F-35 jet on track to meet Marine Corps target: Navy - Yahoo News

I think what has happened is many people (especially the press) still blends all 3 versions together and assumes that the issues brought to light in 2011 still exist. Additionally I think everyone is putting too much emphasis on this aircraft in the air-to-air role. It's primary function from day one was that of a STRIKE aircraft - it drops bombs. With that said, "dogfighting" in the pure sense shouldn't even be considered in the fore front. 

"Fly to your target, if interecpted, kill your enemy BVR, drop your bombs, go home and drink beer."


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## GregP (Jan 15, 2015)

The aricle you posted above says they expect the F-35C to be ready for deployment by the end of the decade! That's 5 years away! First flight for the model was 9 years ago! I suppose if they make it by 2020, then the F-35C will only be a fewe years short of the F-22's record ... which was d isgusting to me.

But I suppose it is what it is.

Funny the STOVL is going to be combat-worthy sooner than the Navy version!


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 15, 2015)

And the F-35A...

Officials remain confident in F-35A schedule


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## Lucky13 (Jan 18, 2015)

Anyone care to explain this comment made on YouTube....

_As usual they don't even know that their F22 raptors got their asses handed to them by Gripen in red flag 2013.. F-16? Haha what a joke._


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## GrauGeist (Jan 18, 2015)

Lucky13 said:


> Anyone care to explain this comment made on YouTube....
> 
> _As usual they don't even know that their F22 raptors got their asses handed to them by Gripen in red flag 2013.. F-16? Haha what a joke._


key word here, Jan: "comment made on youtube..."

The comment sections of any media, be it YouTube or Facebook or any other place is where the collective IQ of the human race takes a dangerous dip...

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## Lucky13 (Jan 18, 2015)

About the same as on Facebook then, eh?


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## Shinpachi (Aug 24, 2018)

Lockheed is going to offer Japan a stealthy hybrid of the F-22 and F-35 fighter jets
Source: Reuters

Above was news dated April 20, 2018.
Yesterday, Nikkei reported Lockheed Martin formally offered Japanese government reproduction of the F-22 as a varient for JASDF if Japan is going to cover half of the development costs. Abe will be glad to accept it.
Source: 次期戦闘機のＦ22改良版、日本が過半生産

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## Wurger (Aug 24, 2018)

Interesting.

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## Shinpachi (Aug 24, 2018)

1. F-22 wing will be modified to the triangle shape so that it can fly longer like a bomber.
2. Stealth technology and fighting system of the F-35 will be adopted.
3. More details are unknown at the moment.






Source: 次期戦闘機のＦ22改良版、日本が過半生産

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## Wurger (Aug 24, 2018)



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## soulezoo (Aug 24, 2018)

I am just wondering out loud here, so please take no offense anyone.

But after WW II when Japan disarmed and became effectually pacifist, the Japanese Army and Navy, from my point of ignorance, are awfully small and would possibly be little more than a speed bump if China became hostile.

Is the above announcement perhaps Japan coming to the realization that they are vulnerable to the Chinese and couldn't defend "disputed" waters/islands that China now covets to their own ends?

It seems to me what China has been doing in the South China Sea (and really, elsewhere in the world-Africa for instance) is not a whole lot different than what Japan, Germany attempted in the 30's.

Anyway, Japan could certainly do with an upgrade.

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## Shinpachi (Aug 24, 2018)

Japan only follows US strategy in Asia since the ww2 was over.
JSDF can't be active without this premise.
This new business is coming from Mr Trump's "Buy more American products" to support him and his country.


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