# Sunderland vs. eight Ju 88's



## comiso90 (May 9, 2007)

There were 11 crewmen on board the Sunderland, including nine Australians and two British. The crew was on an anti-submarine patrol and also searching for remains of BOAC Flight 777, an airliner that had left Gibraltar the day before and subsequently had been shot down over the Bay of Biscay.

In the late afternoon, one of the crew spotted the eight Ju 88s. Bombs and depth charges were dumped while the pilot, Walker, "redlined" the engines. Two Ju 88s made passes at the flying boat, one from each side, scoring hits while the Sunderland went through wild "corkscrew" evasive manoeuvres. The fighters managed to knock out one engine. On the third pass of the fighters, the top-turret gunner managed to shoot one down. Another Ju 88 disabled the tail turret but the next fighter that made a pass was bracketed by the top and nose turrets and shot down as well.

Still another fighter attacked, smashing the Sunderland's radio gear, wounding most of the crew in varying degrees and mortally wounding one of the side gunners. A Ju 88 tried to attack from the rear but the tail turret gunner had managed to regain some control over the turret and shot it down. The surviving fighters pressed home their attacks despite the losses. The nose gunner damaged one of the fighters and set one of its engines on fire. Two more of the attackers were also hit and the other two finally disengaged and departed. Luftwaffe records indicate these were the only two that made it back to base.

The Sunderland was a wreck. The crew threw everything they could overboard and nursed the aircraft back to the Cornish coast where Walker managed to land and beach it. The crew waded ashore, carrying their dead comrade, while the surf broke the Sunderland up. Walker received the Distinguished Service Order and several of the other crew received medals as well. Walker went on to a ground job while the rest of the crew was given a new Sunderland. That Sunderland and its crew disappeared without a trace over the Bay of Biscay two months later after reporting by radio that they were under attack by six Ju 88s.

Short Sunderland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## rogthedodge (May 9, 2007)

Nice to see the 'Flying Porcupine' get a mention - I remember as a lad seeing the launching cradles for the Sunderlands still on the slipway at Beaumaris on Anglesey (North Wales) and being amazed at the size of the thing (cradle).

I thought all traces of the factory had gone but apparently the slipways and some of the buildings remain


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## Wildcat (May 10, 2007)

Yep, a pretty well known event, a/c was from 461sqn RAAF in believe.


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## Thorlifter (May 10, 2007)

Cool story.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2007)

Good post, thanks.


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## comiso90 (May 11, 2007)

I'm glad u guys liked it.

The B-17 gets the lion’s share of accolades when it comes to epic aerial engagements. It's good to read about the Sunderland... does anybody have any other examples where multi-engine aircraft fight off attackers with memorable style?


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## Heinz (May 11, 2007)

thats a fair effort!


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## Njaco (May 15, 2007)

Opening attack during Big Week, February 20, 1944:

A B-17 flown by Lt. Guy Reed and specially equipped for recon and weather reporting, took off to determine the weather conditions over Germany and the North Sea before the mission. While enroute, Lt. Reed picked up a ghost radio signal and decided to investigate. A ghost signal had been causing havoc among the bomber groups and misdirecting many bombers away from airfields until their fuel was exhausted and they ditched their B-17s. Dropping through cloud cover, the B-17 found the source of the signal; a He 177 recon plane. Coming up alongside the big bomber, the B-17 started firing at the Heinkel begining a battle across the North Sea as the lumbering giants battled each other. Lt. Reed brought the Fortress around the Heinkel and the crew fired at almost point-blank range. The Heinkel dove and then appeared to stall alongside the B-17. As the American bomber came alongside, the German gunners opened up on the B-17, killing the right waist gunner, knocking the cover off the top turret and jamming the rudder. A .50 cal. shell from the Fortress nearly killed the German pilot and he decided to break off the battle. As he banked away a volley of machine gun fire from the B-17 damaged one of the Heinkel's engines and the He 177 tumbled out of the sky, out of control. Nobody survived the crash. Lt. Reed was able to bring his damaged plane back to Scotland for a crash landing.

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## comiso90 (May 15, 2007)

Cool!

Like two Man-O-Wars giving each other a broadside...

Whats the source? I didn't know the HE-177 was used in that capacity... sounds like someone coulda made that up.


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## comiso90 (May 15, 2007)

here is one source that claims it's true:

This story is recounted in "Big Week" by Glen Infield.

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## Negative Creep (May 15, 2007)

rogthedodge said:


> Nice to see the 'Flying Porcupine' get a mention - I remember as a lad seeing the launching cradles for the Sunderlands still on the slipway at Beaumaris on Anglesey (North Wales) and being amazed at the size of the thing (cradle).
> 
> I thought all traces of the factory had gone but apparently the slipways and some of the buildings remain



I used to live about a mile away from their Rochester factory. Sadly all traces seem to have gone quite some time ago


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## Njaco (May 15, 2007)

Comiso beat me to it. I've also seen it refrenced somewhere else but don't have that at this time.


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## comiso90 (May 15, 2007)

Njaco said:


> Comiso beat me to it. I've also seen it refrenced somewhere else but don't have that at this time.



 

It's still hard to believe...

I'd like to see that on "Dogfights"

The 177 was made for diving. I'm suprised they didn't go into a dive and run away... I'd put my money on the B-17

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## renrich (May 17, 2007)

Good post Comis. Isn't it amazing that the British gunners could do all that damage with rifle caliber machine guns. Am reading a book about the US bombing campaign in Europe during WW2 and Ira Eaker(who was to organise the campaign) was flying to England in early 1942 by way of Lisbon. Apparently, the Gestapo that was very active in Lisbon were aware that American officers were on a commercial airliner traveling from Portugal to England and a JU88 attacked the DC3 that Eaker was in. The DC3 pilot evaded the first attack with only a few hits and as the JU88 lined up for another run, suddenly one of the 88s engines caught on fire and the German pulled off and went home. The pilots and passengers on the DC3 were petrified.

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## comiso90 (May 17, 2007)

renrich said:


> Good post Comis. Isn't it amazing that the British gunners could do all that damage with rifle caliber machine guns.



Yeah I was struck by the same thing...


[/QUOTE]The DC3 pilot evaded the first attack with only a few hits and as the JU88 lined up for another run, suddenly one of the 88s engines caught on fire and the German pulled off and went home. The pilots and passengers on the DC3 were petrified.[/QUOTE]

Reminds me of the Saburo Sakai Story were he showed mercy to the Red Cross C-47


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## Vassili Zaitzev (May 18, 2007)

man, the sunderland taking out 6 JU-88's is amazing, thanks for the post.

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## Njaco (Jun 6, 2007)

November 21, 1943 - 25 He 177s of II./KG 40 took off to attack the Allied convoy "SL139 / MKS30". 20 aircraft attacked the convoy at 17.00 hours with 40 HS 293s from between 400 and 600m. One ship, the "Delius" was hit and set on fire and another ship, the "Marsa" was sunk. During the attack, a Coastal Command Liberator from 224 Sqdn arrived from an Anti-U-Boat patrol and not only interrupted the attack but took on the bombers with its own defensive guns, forcing the bombers to flee for home. The attack was also thwarted by heavy AA fire from the ship escorts. The crew of Oblt. von Berg from 5./KG 40 were reported missing with 2 bodied later recovered, while 5 of the crew of Ofw. Freyer, belonging to 4./KG 40 were killed in a crash at St. Christoly.

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## RATHED (Jun 7, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> ... does anybody have any other examples where multi-engine aircraft fight off attackers with memorable style?



Well, on the night of 15/16 March of 1944 a Lancaster from No. 617 was on a mission to bomb Metz when it was attacked by 3 Me-110 night fighters. 

The rear gunner on the Lancaster was Flight Sergent T. J. McLeans, a scot in his second tour who already had five kill to his credit at that point. He was using his favorite mix of 45% tracer and 55% armour piercing instead the regular mix whit would also contain ball and incediary. The Lancaster was hit, but not seriously, and McLeans shot down all the 3 attackers.

At leats this is the information I get from 'Great Aircraft of WWII", by Alfred Spice and Mike Spick...

Regards

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## net_sailor (Jun 9, 2007)

There was famous combat of single Wellington from 304 (Polish) Sqn on 16th September 1942 over Biskay Bay. The Wellington was carrying out antisubmarine patrol when was intercepted by six (!) Ju 88C. One of them was shoot down and another calimed as probably destroyed by Polish gunners. Rest Germans flew away when pilot hided a/c in the clouds. Welington got about 40 hits (the most dangerous were holes in fuel tanks and oil ducts) but there were no injures. The a/c landed after 8 hours and 20 minutes in the air.

Another Polish story, the Wellington vs four Ju 88 on February 9, 1943:
February 9

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## Negative Creep (Jun 16, 2007)

On a smaller scale, but just as remarkable, are the 3 Avro Ansons who were attacked by 9 109s. They shot down 2, damaged a third and forced the rest to break off Avro Anson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Njaco (Jun 17, 2007)

June 14, 1942 - In the evening Italian Fiat CR 42s were out to attack the cruiser HMS "_Liverpool_" from the Operation "Vigoruous" convoy sailing to Malta. The cruiser ws escorted by a Gibraltar-based Catalina from RAF No. 240 Sqdn, which had been diverted from its anti-submarine duties and ordered to escort the damaged cruiser. At 17.05 hrs, the Catalina was attacked by 4 CR 42s but F/O Riddy skillfully maneuvered his lumbering flyingboat, enabling his gunners to repel repeated attacks. Nonetheless, Sergente Renato Casalini carried out a number of determined attacks, gaining strikes on the flyingboat's hull and slightly wounding the W/T operator.

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## Heinz (Jun 17, 2007)

The above stories about the Lancaster, Wellington and Avro Ansons have made me rather stunned. 

Its funny the kills by gunners on RAF bomber isn't as apparent as the USAAF bombers.


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## Njaco (Aug 3, 2007)

I know the thread is old but this was something just found.

July 30, 1943 - While patrolling to the north of Corsica, a B-26 Marauder of No. 14 Sqdn RAF based in Egypt and piloted by Group Captain Dick Maydwell encountered a German Me 323, six-engined transport aircraft flying unescorted low over the sea. He maneuvered his B-26 to allow his gunners to open fire and three engines were set on fire. The massive aircraft, described by Maydwell's navigator as looking like "a block of flats", crash landed on the shore. The crew escaped unhurt and Maydwell held his fire.

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## Glider (Aug 5, 2007)

One example that I always found interesting was over the Bay of Biscay on the 15th August 1943. A Halifax V towing a Horsa glider was intercepted by 12 Ju88C. Four climbed to give fighter protection in case of Beaufighters interupted (they were known to be around) and 8 attacked. The Horsa released the cable and ditched and the Halifax evaded for around 15 mins until it reached cloud. In that time it suffered a fair amount of damage to its right wing but damaged two of the Ju88's who had to leave the battle after being hit in the engine.
It should be remembered that the Halifax V only had one turret in the rear.

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## Njaco (Aug 5, 2007)

I find these large plane battles amazing. Having an airplane do something it was not designed to do, i.e. dogfight, must've been something to see.

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## Heinz (Aug 5, 2007)

It is quite awe inspiring when you try and think about it.....


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## comiso90 (Aug 6, 2007)

Njaco said:


> I find these large plane battles amazing. Having an airplane do something it was not designed to do, i.e. dogfight, must've been something to see.



Me too. I'd like to see "Dogfights" re-create some..


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## Njaco (Aug 6, 2007)

Perfect show to try that!! Just watched "Kamikazi".


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## comiso90 (Aug 7, 2007)

Njaco said:


> I know the thread is old but this was something just found.
> 
> July 30, 1943 - While patrolling to the north of Corsica, a B-26 Marauder of No. 14 Sqdn RAF based in Egypt and piloted by Group Captain Dick Maydwell encountered a German Me 323, six-engined transport aircraft flying unescorted low over the sea. He maneuvered his B-26 to allow his gunners to open fire and three engines were set on fire. .



The 323 had a few guns of it's own too. I wonder if they scored any hits:

Armament:
Five MG 15 mounted in nose mounts
Six Mg 34 infantry MG's in beam windows


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45mZbTdaLHE_

.


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## Aggie08 (Aug 29, 2007)

I remember one story, a B-17 who got real cozy with a big Japanese flying boat- can't remember which one. The two shot the hell out of each other, but I think the Fort won. I'm sure someone can elaborate.


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## comiso90 (Sep 1, 2007)

Aggie08 said:


> I remember one story, a B-17 who got real cozy with a big Japanese flying boat- can't remember which one. The two shot the hell out of each other, but I think the Fort won. I'm sure someone can elaborate.



I'd like to hear more!

I like this thread! 

The crew of the large lumbering aircraft are often relegated to a passive role of defense and survival. It's very interesting to hear about unconventional exploits.

.


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## Glider (Sep 2, 2007)

I am pretty sure that in the Med some Baltimores (IMHO one of the underated bombers of the war) were used as long range fighters to intercept German transports due to their 4 x HMG front guns.


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## Downwind.Maddl-Land (Sep 2, 2007)

Further to Njaco's post, weren't USAAF B-26 Marauders dispatched to engage Me 323 Gigants over the Med in that Theatre of Operations, much to the discomfiture of the 323s? Don't have dates/units to hand. 

I am aware of (apocryphal?) tales of RAF Coastal Command Liberators dogfighting with FW200 Condors over the Atlantic. Now, that would have been a sight to behold!


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## Glider (Sep 2, 2007)

Downwind.Maddl-Land said:


> Further to Njaco's post, weren't USAAF B-26 Marauders dispatched to engage Me 323 Gigants over the Med in that Theatre of Operations, much to the discomfiture of the 323s? Don't have dates/units to hand.
> 
> I am aware of (apocryphal?) tales of RAF Coastal Command Liberators dogfighting with FW200 Condors over the Atlantic. Now, that would have been a sight to behold!



It certanly happened. on 17th Aug 1943, a US Liberator was lost in combat with a FW200 which was also destroyed in the action


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## comiso90 (Sep 3, 2007)

Glider said:


> It certanly happened. on 17th Aug 1943, a US Liberator was lost in combat with a FW200 which was also destroyed in the action



fascinating!


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## comiso90 (Sep 3, 2007)

Downwind.Maddl-Land said:


> Further to Njaco's post, weren't USAAF B-26 Marauders dispatched to engage Me 323 Gigants over the Med in that Theatre of Operations, much to the discomfiture of the 323s?



At night?

.


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## Glider (Sep 3, 2007)

Also I found an example of a Sunderland that had a battle with a FW200. The FW badly damaged the Sunderlands hydraulics with his first burst but the Sunderland made it home.


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## Aggie08 (Sep 3, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> I'd like to hear more!
> 
> I like this thread!
> 
> ...



Lt. Tsuneo Hitsuji - Shootout Between H6K5 Mavis and B-17

This seems to be the story I remember. It is very neat in that it is told from the Japanese perspective. It's a pretty brutal fight to say the least.


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## comiso90 (Sep 4, 2007)

Thanks Aggie- great story. it was funny hearing the B-17 referred to as "FAST"

In a situation like that, what were the gunners trained to shoot at? I would think the priorities would be:

1.The enemy cockpit
2.other gunners
3.engines
4.ANYTHING


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## Aggie08 (Sep 4, 2007)

It's amazing how hard air-to-air gunnery is, when two huge planes actually miss on a few passes. I can only guess at how hard hard it is to hit a fighter. I guess aim at the cockpit? I'm not really sure, but it seems like a "softer" and more crucial part of the plane than one of the engines.


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## comiso90 (Sep 4, 2007)

yeah.. I'd like to hear the American version of the account... i find it hard to believe they ran out of ammo...

If so, those boys needed some discipline.

.


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## net_sailor (Sep 5, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> In a situation like that, what were the gunners trained to shoot at? I would think the priorities would be:
> 
> 1.The enemy cockpit
> 2.other gunners
> ...



Shooting at enemy crew can't give fast effect, cause their stands are usually armoured. The humans' profile isn't a too big target in comparision aircraft size also (hard to hit and see the results).

My priorities would be other a vital parts: enginies and fuel tanks (big and soft targers). It could give fast visual effects (smoke, fire or fuel leaks) - very important for gunners also from psychological reasons.


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## Aggie08 (Sep 5, 2007)

Good point, we knew the Japanese didn't have self-sealing fuel tanks.


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## comiso90 (Sep 5, 2007)

net_sailor said:


> Shooting at enemy crew can't give fast effect, cause their stands are usually armoured. The humans' profile isn't a too big target in comparision aircraft size also (hard to hit and see the results).
> 
> My priorities would be other a vital parts: enginies and fuel tanks (big and soft targers). It could give fast visual effects (smoke, fire or fuel leaks) - very important for gunners also from psychological reasons.



I don't disagree but if I'm a waste gunner in a B-17 along side a Mavis and I was watching the jap gunner walk tracers towards me.... I'm going to do anything i can to take him out.

.

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## Pisis (Sep 8, 2007)

Interesting stories. I've read a lot similar stories about Wellingtons flown by Czechoslovak pilots of No. 311 (Czechoslovak) Squadron RAF.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 10, 2007)

Good story about the Mavis but rough luck for two B-17's.

Really unlucky for that crew of the Sunderland, and somehow weird that they again came across another pack of Ju 88's. Just couldn't take out the odds twice.


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## 16KJV11 (Sep 10, 2007)

Has anyone heard similar stories of German boats fending off Allied attacks and surviving?


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## Aggie08 (Sep 10, 2007)

I've heard more than one story of unescorted Me-323 Gigants being found by lucky fighter pilots, but nothing like a battle of giants.


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## Glider (Sep 11, 2007)

16KJV11 said:


> Has anyone heard similar stories of German boats fending off Allied attacks and surviving?



I have heard of Arado 196's being used to intercept A/S patrol aircraft of the French coast, mainly Whitleys. Must be the slowest intercept / dogfight of the war.


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## comiso90 (Sep 14, 2007)

Glider said:


> I have heard of Arado 196's being used to intercept A/S patrol aircraft of the French coast, mainly Whitleys. Must be the slowest intercept / dogfight of the war.



Like WW 1 with out the maneuverability..


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## Njaco (Oct 18, 2007)

While not WW II just found this little story in a Flight Journal magazine.

January 28, 1970 - James C. "Casey" Quinn, an aircraft/mission commander of an Air Force HC-130P from 39th AARS operating from Udorn, thailand was refueling HH-3E Jolly Green Giant helos when attacked by a MiG 21. Wheteher from gunfire from the Jolly Greens and the Herc or from the evasive action by Casey, the Mig 21, flown by Pham Dinh Tuan crashed into a mountainside and was killed. Will try to post the whole story if I can.


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## plan_D (Oct 19, 2007)

I don't have exact stories; but the RAF and USAAF sent everything and anything over the Med to intercept German transports. So, the stories while not being famous, would be numerous. The Ju 52s were the main targets and B-25s were known to rip them out of the sky with ease.


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## comiso90 (Oct 19, 2007)

plan_D said:


> I don't have exact stories; but the RAF and USAAF sent everything and anything over the Med to intercept German transports. So, the stories while not being famous, would be numerous. The Ju 52s were the main targets and B-25s were known to rip them out of the sky with ease.



That would be a site... a fine day to be a gunner, a rare treat. 

.


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## DBII (Oct 19, 2007)

The B17s get all of the press. Can anyone direct me to accounts of the German bomb crews?

DBII


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## Njaco (Feb 2, 2008)

Cosimo, found a good Sunderland story.

April 8, 1940: Nine He 111s of 1(F)./122 took off from Hamburg to check the area east of the Shetlands. One of these aircraft sighted the British 2nd Cruiser Squadron together with 11 destroyers heading north at high speed to intercept the suspected breakout to the Atlantic of the _'Admiral Hipper' _and her escorts. Another of the 1(F)./122 Heinkels encountered a Sunderland of RAF No. 204 Sqdrn and a running fight ensued which resulted in the Sunderland crashing into the sea west of Bergen. The Heinkel returned to Hamburg undamaged.


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## comiso90 (Feb 4, 2008)

Cool...

The Sunderland sure would make a easier target. Maybe the tail gunner was knocked out early.

Short Sunderland flying boat (David Llewellyn James)


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## Njaco (Feb 4, 2008)

kinda like hitting the broadside of a barn! Just picture a Heinkel and that battling at 2000 feet.


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## P-Popsie (Oct 26, 2008)

in regards to air to air of large A/C I have a recollection of accounts of a sunderland encountering and engaging a FW 200 neither a/c were downed.


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## P-Popsie (Oct 26, 2008)

RATHED said:


> Well, on the night of 15/16 March of 1944 a Lancaster from No. 617 was on a mission to bomb Metz when it was attacked by 3 Me-110 night fighters.
> 
> This is of particular interest to me and have not yet encontered this incident in my readings about this squadron if its possible could you please post the Bibliography from the book you quoted. Cheers


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## Glider (Oct 26, 2008)

I admit that I have 617 bombing Woippy on the 15th March and Clermont Ferrand on the 16th March.


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## B-17engineer (Oct 26, 2008)

I have a lot of stories here's a few...

On November 26,1943 Lt. Charles W. Spencer at the foward gun of a B=17 named "Star Dust". Shells from head on enemy attacks shattered the Plexiglass nose and killed the crews navigator Lt. Harold J Rocketto. Badly cut in the face and removed from the nose by the crews engineer Sgt.Grover C Mullins, Lt SPencer returned to man his battle station despite freezing air at a temperature of -60C blasting through the compartment at over 125 mph. Horribly injured by frostbite in these terrible conditions. Spencer was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for his actions. 


January 29, 1944 

Rawlings: We popped out of the clouds nut the clouds were getting to be broken. We were over a fighter field in Florenne which was a big German fighter field. The tail gunner yelled" Oh god, here they come, there taking off!" He counted more than 6 and they were FW-190's. We tried pulling up in the clouds again but the clouds were became more broken. It used to be a 1500 foot layer now it was not even 500 feet. There was lots of Flak bracketing us and the tail gunner yelled "Kick it, Kick it!" There was the constant sound of crap hitting the airplane. We were taking 20 mm shells from an Me-210 who hadnt even gotten his landing gear up yet. Now both enginers on the right sode were out I was trying to use the rudder but I realized the rudder was knocked out. Then our No.4 engine went out. I made the choice and rang the alarm bell. The rest of the crew bailed out and became POW for the rest of the war


From "Half a wing,Three engines and a prayer. "


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## Kurfürst (Oct 26, 2008)

Hans J. Jabs - 110 nightfighter ace, caught in the daylight by six Spitfires, he bagged two and then made a quick landing.

_On 29 April 1944 his BF 110-G night fighter was caught on a daylight air test by a flight of 6 Spitfires from No. 132 Squadron RAF, led by 15-kill ace Squadron Leader Geoffrey Page. The Spitfires came in at too high a speed and as one Spitfire overshot Jabs shot down the Spitfire flown by P/O R.B. Pullin, which went down in flames and the pilot killed. F/O J.J. Caulton then attacked Jabs head-on, though the heavy forward armament of the 110 took affect and the striken Spitfire glided around and belly-landed onto Deelen Air Base. Jabs then conducted a surprise forced landing, quickly scrambling for cover before his aircraft was destroyed by strafing._

Hans-Joachim Jabs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## P-Popsie (Oct 26, 2008)

Well, on the night of 15/16 March of 1944 a Lancaster from No. 617 was on a mission to bomb Metz when it was attacked by 3 Me-110 night fighters.

The rear gunner on the Lancaster was Flight Sergent T. J. McLeans, a scot in his second tour who already had five kill to his credit at that point. He was using his favorite mix of 45% tracer and 55% armour piercing instead the regular mix whit would also contain ball and incediary. The Lancaster was hit, but not seriously, and McLeans shot down all the 3 attackers. 

Mar 10th
La


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## P-Popsie (Oct 26, 2008)

Well, on the night of 15/16 March of 1944 a Lancaster from No. 617 was on a mission to bomb Metz when it was attacked by 3 Me-110 night fighters.

The rear gunner on the Lancaster was Flight Sergent T. J. McLeans, a scot in his second tour who already had five kill to his credit at that point. He was using his favorite mix of 45% tracer and 55% armour piercing instead the regular mix whit would also contain ball and incediary. The Lancaster was hit, but not seriously, and McLeans shot down all the 3 attackers. 

Mar 10th
La –Ricamarie “St. Etienne” {Gearbox / Needle bearing Factory near Lyon} No moon Factory in steep valley Cheshire tries five runs and on the sxth judges distance noses down over target and drops markers which skid off the factory roof a hundred yards further on. Shannon’s markers do same Munroe undershot Arthur Kell new pilot of p-popsie lands markers on roof Cheshire calls bombers onto last marker. 
Mar 15th
Woippy {Aero engine factory near Metz} Squadron struggled through 8/10th’s Cloud all way but found target 10/10th’s On way home Duffey’s plane was jumped by three night fighters Two Ju.88’s and a FW190 after receiving a round through the hand and suitable cursing for it the rear gunner Mc Lean accounted for both 88’s and possibly the FW190. 

Mar 16th
Clermont-Ferrand { Michelin Tyre Factory } War cabinet again reminds 617 no French casualties Three workshops destroyed workers canteen unscathed. Munroe McCarthy Shannon Cheshire mark in Lancasters. 

Cheshire
“ Michelins complexion seems a trifle red”
{P.169 TDB}

Mar 18th
Bergerac { Powderie Nationale } Target clear for once Chesire and Munroe able to mark accurately SABS 5000ft McCarthy and Shannon able to do same on Munitions store nearby. A huge fireball accompanied this raid

Found it in my notes: this raid was notable also for it was only the third time the Squadron used the low level marking. This involved putting the Lancaster into an almost vertical dive over the target from 5000ft or so. This allowed the Bomb aimer to release the markers dive bomber fashion. {Ralph Chochrane C in C 5GRP had expressly forbid this behavior at this time} This Raid occoured the night before the famous Michelin Tyre Factoy raid. Unfortunately can't elaborate more i dont have my books with me.


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## RATHED (Oct 26, 2008)

P-Popsie said:


> This is of particular interest to me and have not yet encontered this incident in my readings about this squadron if its possible could you please post the Bibliography from the book you quoted. Cheers




The book in question is "Gret aircraft of WWII" by Alfred Price and Mike Spick. It is a 1997 book, printed in England by Abbeydale Press.

Regards


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## P-Popsie (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks heaps for that i'll add it to my biblio and search list. If i can be of any assistance in future to you please let me know.


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## iangedwards_104 (Apr 12, 2009)

As a post-war Sunderland Air Signaller I've heard the Boat vs 8 JUs story, but never heard that most of that crew bought it in another 6 JU attack!
Another story is of a Sunderbus ferrying 88(?) escapees from Greece to Egypt. Couldn't take off so they taxied across the Med!
Cheers, Ian/Eddy


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## Njaco (Apr 12, 2009)

I've heard that one too, iang.

Just found this one today....

5 May 1940: A crewmember if a 1(F)./122 He 111 was wounded when the German recon bomber was attacked by 2 Sunderlands near Bodo, Norway.


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## comiso90 (Apr 12, 2009)

iangedwards_104 said:


> Another story is of a Sunderbus ferrying 88(?) escapees from Greece to Egypt. Couldn't take off so they taxied across the Med!
> Cheers, Ian/Eddy



WOW!

I wonder if they confused the hell out of any U-boat that happened to see them

.


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## Timppa (Apr 15, 2009)

comiso90 said:


> Luftwaffe records indicate these were the only two that made it back to base.



Apparently there were no LW losses. 


V/KG-40 Losses on June 2,1943 - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum


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## Glider (Apr 15, 2009)

Timppa said:


> Apparently there were no LW losses.
> 
> 
> V/KG-40 Losses on June 2,1943 - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum



I agree with this. In addition to Bloody Biscay which details this period from the German side I also have Conflict over the Bay which looks at the same area of conflict from the allied side. Both books say that there were no KG40 losses. 

Clearly there was an intense action, The Sunderlands 500+ bullet holes didn't come from nowhere and I believe that its fair to work on the basis that the Germans sufferred some damage if only because there were eight of them and it would be the work of a second to finish the Sunderland off, but no losses.


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## Maximowitz (Apr 15, 2009)

Negative Creep said:


> I used to live about a mile away from their Rochester factory. Sadly all traces seem to have gone quite some time ago



I live in Rochester myself, the site is now a housing development but the tunnels into the cliff behind the factory which were used during WWII still remain.


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## Von Frag (Apr 16, 2009)

There is a photo in Edward Jablonski's Airwar of B-25's flying through a formation of Ju-52's over the Med. The B-25's were on a bombing mission and if I recall correctly they engaged the Tante Ju's and shot many of them down.


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## Njaco (Apr 16, 2009)

I have those books - will check!


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## Von Frag (Apr 17, 2009)

Njaco said:


> I have those books - will check!



It is. It is on the top of page 14 of "Blue Mediteranian Skies".


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## Njaco (Apr 17, 2009)

Vol. 1 or Vol.2? Forget it, won't be hard for me to check!


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## Njaco (Apr 18, 2009)

Great find, Von Frag!

Reactions: Bacon Bacon:
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## Wildcat (Apr 18, 2009)

Amazing shot!!


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## comiso90 (Apr 18, 2009)

Wow.... target practice!

I actually feel sorry for the J-52 crew. 

.


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## Njaco (Apr 18, 2009)

Can you count how many Ju 52s are there?


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