# Me-262



## Crazy (Dec 13, 2003)

I've heard this arguement a million times, and don't think it would have. Even a year earlier, it might have punched some holes in the Allied Air Defence, maybe even prolonged the war a few years. But it couldn't have won it. Eventually, the Allies would get a hold of one and improve it. 


But what do _you_ think?





S!

Crazee


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## Crazy (Dec 18, 2003)

35 votes, 0 comments. you've avoided me nicely...



lol

S!

Crazee


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## Anonymous (Dec 19, 2003)

most people agree that the me262 could not have won the war but I completley disagree. With the technology that it possesed 100 mph's faster than most fighters it could have easily shot them down and gained the upper hand. If Hitler had not wanted it to be converted into a fighter-bomber it could have inflicted such heavy losses on the allies that they may have had to hold off on the air offensive. But since he wanted that it hamped supplies to the limit.


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## Anonymous (Dec 19, 2003)

Even with all of the diffrent things that people have said that the me262 could not have won the war with four 30 mm cannons and it's speed it was totally able to outclass any fighter the allies had. If it could have been made in sufficent numbers and if there was the fuel to supplie it with it could have changed the war or at least for some time. And the allies really did not have a jet fighter yet they were really still only in the production stages. Although the British had one and the Americans they were nothing like the me262 which by far was the better plane.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 21, 2003)

not a chanse. it takes a truly great plane like the spitfire, hurricane or bf-109 to win a war, not a plane like the me-262, i mean, if it was such a great plane as many people are making out, it would have changed the corse of the war in the very short time it had to show itself


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## Crazy (Dec 22, 2003)

Not a bad observation, the Lanc.

However, even great planes like the Spitfire or the 109 couldn't have changed history in a few months. If you look at it, the 109 was around even during the Spanish Civil War, and so it had plenty of time for improvement. The Spitfire was simply an excellent plane, but in that short period of time, no plane could make a serious dent in the opposition by itself



S!

Crazee


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 26, 2003)

im new but i know what could have helped the germans since the me262 came out so late the........HE100D that was an awesome plane it had the same engine (DB601) and armament (2x7.62mm mgs and 1x30mm cannon) as the 109 yet it had a 415mph top speed and it was ready to be built early in the war but the stupid german political leaders didnt like heinkel so u know.............


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## Erich Hartmann (Jan 11, 2004)

THe Me-262 was a great fighter, a better bomber though. It was hard deciding whether or not it could've won the war. It could though. I am only gambling my thoughts though..


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## Erich Hartmann (Jan 19, 2004)

It led us to modern rocketry


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 25, 2004)

there's no deneying that the 262 led to our modern jets, but to late to make a difference in ww2

btw, don't ypu think it would be interesting to put a modern fighter armed only with guns against a spitfire or p-51?


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## Hot Space (Jan 25, 2004)

They did once.........well kind of.

In 1963 the RAF set up a series of Dogfight's between a Spitfire XIX and a Mach 2 English-Electric Lighting   

Spitfire WON at slow speeds, the Spitfire LOST at high speeds   

Hot Space


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## Crazy (Jan 25, 2004)

Some of the less-advanced airforces of the world still use P-51's. The scary thing is that, if your flying a big bird over those countries without fighter cover, those P-51's will put a wrench in your gears real fast


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## Hot Space (Jan 25, 2004)

Still good Bird's to fly 8) 

Hot Space


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 26, 2004)

are we still talking about the 262 here?


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## Anonymous (Feb 13, 2004)

yes. it WILL win the war. cos it was the fastest plane then, and the top dog fighting plane. Problem is, Hitler insisted on converting it to a bomber, which is impossible.
Note: After the war, Allies literally stripped the Me262s to pieces to aquire its jet technology. Cheapskate Allies!


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## Hot Space (Feb 13, 2004)

That's because the British Design's were Piston Engined type design's with Jets added on and with the American's copying the Brit Design's didn't really help   

But the American F-86 were based on a German Design, which of course helped to win the next War the U.S were involved in  

Hot Space


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## Anonymous (Feb 17, 2004)

I'd have to agree that the Me262 wouldn't have made enough difference to 'win the war for the Germans' in the end we weren't far off developing our own Jet fighters, the prototype Gloster Meteor first flew in 1941 and was operational in april 1945 - by Novemeber it had broken the airspeed record so obviously we would have been able to match the Germans for speed anyway. 
I do agree that it may have prolonged the war by maybe a year or so but to say it would end the war in favour of the Germans is very silly indeed


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## Hot Space (Feb 17, 2004)

I agree. The German's had too many Fronts to cover....

Hot Space


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 18, 2004)

you ever think how much time could have been saved by not going to war at all?


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 18, 2004)

hehe  think what it might be like if we didnt go to war though, i mean this website wouldnt even exist


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## Anonymous (Feb 19, 2004)

Not only would this website not exist but no-one would unless they had blonde hair, blue eyes and spoke bloody German! (Unless of course they were short, fat, had greasy black hair and a tiny square moustache!)


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 19, 2004)

thats a bit of a strong sterotype mate


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## bronzewhaler82 (Feb 19, 2004)

No it isn't - thats exactly what the Germans wanted, thats exactly why hitler wanted war mate - to created the ultimate, perfect human race. thats just basic history


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## Anonymous (Feb 20, 2004)

the me-262 could have won the war for germany if it was operational 
during the early years of the war  it is the pioneer of modern jets


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 20, 2004)

actually the E. 28/9 was the worlds first jet plane (don't quote me on that plane name, i can't be sure, it's something like that)


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## bronzewhaler82 (Feb 22, 2004)

"the me-262 could have won the war for germany if it was operational 
during the early years of the war it is the pioneer of modern jets "

How can anyone even THINK that one plane could change the way the war ended? come on! the Me 262 wasn't indestructable! it could be shot down and the allies had their own jets on the way, it wasn't like the Germans developed the only jet fighters for god sake! the Brits had the Meteor and the Yanks had the Aircomet....the argument just doesn't make sense! One plane type could defeat all the armies, navies and airforces of the Allies?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 29, 2004)

well, the meteor wasn't anywhere nere as good as the 262


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## kiwimac (Feb 29, 2004)

The aircomet was a joke!

Seriously, had the Germans built aircraft like the FW 189 and the Arado 240 and the Heinkel 280 in the early 1940's the latter half of the war would have been a _very_ different kettle of fish in my opinion.

Kiwimac


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## Hot Space (Feb 29, 2004)

kiwimac said:


> The aircomet was a joke!
> 
> Seriously, had the Germans built aircraft like the FW 189 and the Arado 240 and the Heinkel 280 in the early 1940's the latter half of the war would have been a _very_ different kettle of fish in my opinion.
> 
> Kiwimac



The Fw 189 was a Twin Engined Recon Plane, M8 8) 







Hot Space


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## kiwimac (Mar 1, 2004)

Actually the HE 280 was the German pioneering Jet fighter.

Kiwimac


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## kiwimac (Mar 1, 2004)

FW 187 then, Honestly, you make ONE mistake ..... 

Kiwimac


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 3, 2004)

None of this changes the fact that the Me 262 jet fighter would never have won the war - even if they had built it in 1943


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## kiwimac (Mar 3, 2004)

Whaler,

I agree but the HE 280 flew in 1941 while planes like the Arado 240 and the FW 187 Falke were available in 1939. Those together would have made some difference.

Kiwimac


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 4, 2004)

Oh god this is killing me! 

No-one is denying that these jets would have made a difference - all i'm saying is it would never have WON THE WAR for anyone


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## kiwimac (Mar 4, 2004)

And I'm NOT disagreeing with you. What I AM saying is that had the Reich Air ministry actually used its brains for something other that cushioning their seats with, then the outcome of the war could well have been somewhat different.

Kiwimac


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## Anonymous (Mar 4, 2004)

kiwimac said:


> The aircomet was a joke!
> 
> Seriously, had the Germans built aircraft like the FW 189 and the Arado 240 and the Heinkel 280 in the early 1940's the latter half of the war would have been a _very_ different kettle of fish in my opinion.
> 
> Kiwimac


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## Anonymous (Mar 4, 2004)

The AR 240 was a Twin Engined propellar plane. Good yes, but no more revolution than for ex. the Mosquito.What influence on the result of the war can a plane like this have !!!!!


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## Crazy (Mar 4, 2004)

circumstance.... it's all about circumstances...

if the 262 had been in service earlier, it might have thrown the balance of major battles in favor of the axis, which would have made things easier on all the other groups..... you see what I'm getting at? but I don't think it would have made that much of a difference


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## kiwimac (Mar 4, 2004)

I guess my argument is that earlier use of planes like the HE 280 et alia would mean that the Reich armed forces would perhaps have had a _different_ attitude towards innovation.

Which perhaps means that a whole raft of other ideas (that were never thought of in our war) could have come up.

Kiwimac


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 6, 2004)

the germans had hundreds of experimental planes, few of them ever worked though


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## kiwimac (Mar 6, 2004)

Yes well,

IMO its not whether they worked, _per se_ but the sheer inventiveness that brought them into the light of day.

Kiwimac


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 7, 2004)

admititally they looked kick ass..............


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## Huckebein (Mar 13, 2004)

Sorry - I haven't read this entire thread (7 pages!), so what I say might have been said before, but here goes: Providing the Luftwaffe had got the '262 into service _before_ 1944, with plenty of decent pilots to fly and train on them, the '262 would have delayed the end of the war by a long time. However, the war was always going to be decided by more fundamental differences between the combatant nations. The combined industrial capacity of the USA, USSR and British Empire was many many times greater than that of the Germans and Japanese. Under any circumstances apart from a German conquest of the USSR, the war would have continued until German industry was run into the ground, and/ or 'Enola Gayed' by the US (you know what I mean). The '262 could have ruled the skies of Europe under the circumstances specified previously, but once Germany can no longer build them, it is a moot point.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 13, 2004)

> 'Enola Gayed' by the US (you know what I mean).



1)I've never heard it been caled that before
2) if we were to "Enola Gay" germany, it would have been an american bomb, but it would have been dropped by the lancaster.................


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## GermansRGeniuses (Mar 13, 2004)

no, it would be dropped by the B-29!

Reichsmarschall Batista


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## Crazy (Mar 14, 2004)

The B-29 would have been far more qualified than the Lancaster to 'Enola Gay' Germany. 

If the war had been extended past the defeat of Japan, we would already have a specially designed Enola Gay or Bockscar to drop another bomb

Plus, trust a Lanc with that, it would have to fly at night because of a lack of armament, and they'd probably miss the target altogether


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 21, 2004)

HA! joke's on you, by 1944-45 they could carry out daylight raids as they were less dangerous


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 21, 2004)

Hermann said:


> The AR 240 was a Twin Engined propellar plane. Good yes, but no more revolution than for ex. the Mosquito.What influence on the result of the war can a plane like this have !!!!!



The DH Mosquito was one of the most outstanding revolutions of aviation warfare - the Mosquito certainly influenced things just as the first Jets did...but i still wouldn't aruge that either of them won the war


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 21, 2004)

Crazy said:


> The B-29 would have been far more qualified than the Lancaster to 'Enola Gay' Germany.
> 
> If the war had been extended past the defeat of Japan, we would already have a specially designed Enola Gay or Bockscar to drop another bomb
> 
> Plus, trust a Lanc with that, it would have to fly at night because of a lack of armament, and they'd probably miss the target altogether



The lanc was OVERQUALIFIED to drop any nuke...and whats more, with a nuke it doesn't really matter if you hit the target spot on does it?   as long as you're reasonably close i'm sure it will have much the same effect... 

I bet the pilot of 'Enola Gay' didn't say to his bombadier "damn it chuck! you missed the noodle bar by 2 feet!"


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## GermansRGeniuses (Mar 27, 2004)

ah but if the war had lasted longer day raids would have become more dangerous as the germans would have Ho IX's swarming the skies along wiht Ta-154's and Schwalbes!

Reichsmarschall Batista


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 1, 2004)

> Ta-154's



the ta-154, what a rip off, they were jealous of our mosquito and called it "the moskito"


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## ahanswurst (Apr 3, 2004)

I think if the Me-262 had been allowed to operate as a fighter from the get go the Allies would have been in serious trouble. The 30 mm canon was the best anti aircraft round made. The Germans 20 mm round was underpowered. The 20 mm's projectile speed was under 900 feet/second which was too slow. The 30 mm round was heavier and had a lot more effect when the round exploded. However the Jumo engines on the Me-262 were not reliable but with a little more development time the Germans would have had the best fighter in the sky. The Japanese had very good aircraft but their lack of high octane av-gas hampered their aircrafts preformance


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## Crazy (Apr 4, 2004)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> ah but if the war had lasted longer day raids would have become more dangerous as the germans would have Ho IX's swarming the skies along wiht Ta-154's and Schwalbes!
> 
> Reichsmarschall Batista




See the reason and despair!!  

Besides, I'm talking missing on a nuclear level. "What were we aiming for, old chap?" 

"Berlin. Why?"

"I thought so. I just wondered because we haven't seen a single fighter, and Berlin looks an awful bloody lot like London"


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## Gemhorse (Apr 4, 2004)

Once the Allies destroyed Germany's ' Heavy water ' program , there went any future nuclear capability - Also , 262's didn't have a great deal of range, were unreliable, and being a 100 odd mph faster, couldn't get a bead too easily on Allied fighter aircraft - Many a Mosquito got shot-up , but made it back to base due to manoevrability and cloud-cover, and the Allies had jets on the way, anyway...


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## kiwimac (Apr 4, 2004)

Actually the AR 240, could have been arguably the best heavy fighter of WW2 (Along with the FW 187!)

I don't think the Allies would have nuked Berlin because there was just too much cause for concern in what would happen if the plane was shot-down or if they missed!

Kiwimac


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 5, 2004)

> Also , 262's didn't have a great deal of range



well, jets dont generally have good range, still, better range than a 109 8) the arado ar-234 "blitz" could do 1013 miles, pretty good for a jet 8)


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 7, 2004)

Gemhorse said:


> Once the Allies destroyed Germany's ' Heavy water ' program , there went any future nuclear capability - Also , 262's didn't have a great deal of range, were unreliable, and being a 100 odd mph faster, couldn't get a bead too easily on Allied fighter aircraft - Many a Mosquito got shot-up , but made it back to base due to manoevrability and cloud-cover, and the Allies had jets on the way, anyway...



This man knows EXACTLY what he's talking about...I couldn't have worded that better myself


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## ahanswurst (Apr 7, 2004)

The Arado Blitz flying 1000 miles per hour did not stop 4 of them being shot down while they were trying to bomb a bridge the allies were using. The Arado's flew 3 seperate missions and dropped bomb but none of them damaged the bridge. Did ground fire get the Arados or were they shot down by aircraft ?


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 8, 2004)

I would be 99% sure it would be ground fire...


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## R Pope (Apr 8, 2004)

1000 mph Arado? Not!! 1000 kph,maybe. Also,regarding the Lanc not being armed heavily enough to fly nuclear missions, the Silverplate B-29s that dropped the nukes only carried tail guns, all other positions were eliminated.And what would these swarms of fantasy fighters have run on, cabbage juice? The Luftwaffe had hundreds of fighters that never got a gallon of gas amongst them. That's called strategic warfare, kiddies!


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## R Pope (Apr 8, 2004)

The A-bomb was developed specifically to hit Germany, but they folded before it was ready so Japan got hit instead. Don't kid yourselves--if they'd been ready sooner, we'd be talking about Schweinfurt, not Hiroshima!


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 9, 2004)

yep and since that is true, it undermines the fact that some people believe that the A-bomb was racist. if you ever hear that, then tell the person that it isnt, because it was intended to be used on white people


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 9, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> > Ta-154's
> 
> 
> 
> the ta-154, what a rip off, they were jealous of our mosquito and called it "the moskito"


http://www.luft46.com/fw/ta183-i.html thats what i meant, the Ta-183. (dont know how i got the 5 in there) but you should have realised i was wrong for another reason!!   the (better than Mossie) Moskito was a nightfighter!!


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 9, 2004)

R Pope said:


> 1000 mph Arado? Not!! 1000 kph,maybe. Also,regarding the Lanc not being armed heavily enough to fly nuclear missions, the Silverplate B-29s that dropped the nukes only carried tail guns, all other positions were eliminated.And what would these swarms of fantasy fighters have run on, cabbage juice? The Luftwaffe had hundreds of fighters that never got a gallon of gas amongst them. That's called strategic warfare, kiddies!


 im pretty sure the germans would care about their new _wunderwaffen_ enough to give them as much gas as possible  ol' adolf had quite a thing for new tech (GOOD tech i might add!) so poo on you! i WILL fight for the reich!!! (partisan style of course, my being dutch and all)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 10, 2004)

this goes back to the conversation, which allied aircraft would have dropped the A-bomb on germany, i think it would be the lancaster..................


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## Crazy (Apr 10, 2004)

And as I've said before also, the B-29 would be better suited for the purpose 8)


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## kiwimac (Apr 10, 2004)

Nope, they'd have used the Whitley!

Kiwimac


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 10, 2004)

no, they would use.... a captured stuka!


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## Crazy (Apr 10, 2004)

Actually, disregard my last post. They would obviously use a Sopwith Camel 8)


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## ahanswurst (Apr 10, 2004)

I do not think it would be necessary to drop any atomic weapons on Germany as the ground forces from both sides made it all the way to Berlin and all the German airforce bases would have been over run by the troops on their way to Berlin. Where would the Germans base their fighters ? If the ground fire was enough to bring down 3 Arados on their bombing missions what chance would the other airplanes have . The US Army had 90 mm antiaircraft gun mounts and their fire was radar controlled. Both sides armies also did a darn good job bringing down fighter aircraft.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 11, 2004)

we know there would be no point, we just think it would be interesting to find out...................


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## brad (Apr 12, 2004)

Anonymous said:


> yes. it WILL win the war. cos it was the fastest plane then, and the top dog fighting plane. Problem is, Hitler insisted on converting it to a bomber, which is impossible.
> Note: After the war, Allies literally stripped the Me262s to pieces to aquire its jet technology. Cheapskate Allies!


 dope how come the first brittish jet flu in ww2


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## plan_D (Apr 12, 2004)

The British Meteor did fly, but that doesn't mean it was good. The Allies took many Germans advances, the Rocket for example, the Americans had Rockets on the drawing boards but they were poor, they flew but no where near as far, as high or as accurate as the German V-2. American rocket flew, why did they take the German one? BECAUSE IT WAS BETTER! 

Hitler was a confused person, his out look on things changed a lot, he like technology to a point. They had the V-2 in development in 1940, and Hitler ordered its cancellation because he thought that because they didn't need it to take Europe they wouldn't need it at all 'a needless luxury'. Von Braun carried on with it anyway, and by 1945 had the worlds first Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile on the drawing boards, capable of hitting New York, Oh America, how lucky you were.


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 14, 2004)

plan_D said:


> Hitler was a confused person.



Yes, and a wanker!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 14, 2004)

her, if it wasn't for hitler being a "wanker", we would all be speaking german now..................


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 15, 2004)

didja know that one vote saved america from speaking german? it was a vote to see what language the new country would use! english won by ONE vote!!!


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 15, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> her, if it wasn't for hitler being a "wanker", we would all be speaking german now..................



*cough* bollocks! *cough*


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 15, 2004)




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## brad (Apr 15, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> this goes back to the conversation, which allied aircraft would have dropped the A-bomb on germany, i think it would be the lancaster..................


 only cos it carried a bigger payload than the b-17 it ended up bing the super fortress


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 16, 2004)

a b-29 dropped n A-bomb on germany?  when? and where  lol:


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 16, 2004)

bronzewhaler82 said:


> the lancaster kicks ass said:
> 
> 
> > her, if it wasn't for hitler being a "wanker", we would all be speaking german now..................
> ...



it's true, if he hadn't told his airforce to stop attacking airfeilds, he would have destroyed the RAF and whould have invaded, and it wouldn't take them long to hop the pond....................


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## plan_D (Apr 16, 2004)

Common thought, but you can never be sure. We still had those, although exhausted 300,000 British troops ready, not mention a lot of fresh faces not including 'Dads Army'. The Royal Navy was still the most powerful, 168 Ships, including subs which still blockaded the North Sea, throughout the war. 
Would have been quick to mine the Channel, even more than the Germans did in 1939 - 1940. And even then, with experiences the Allies encountered in 1944 it wouldn't have been a walk in the park. Also, Hitler, nor the Nazis had any plan for making us speak German. 

Also, Churchill had prepared the most well organised resistance movement had we been taken, better than the French, Norweigan and Polish.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 16, 2004)

> Would have been quick to mine the Channel


yes you would be, but those mines wouldnt stop an air armada of Me321's now would they?


> Also, Hitler, nor the Nazis had any plan for making us speak German



true, he had no intention of destroying you guys or changing your lifestyle very much (excluding the fact of you guys being under a dictatorial government if it happened, but most even under Hitler, most French people just went on living, some even thought it was a change for the better to be under the nazis) at all, just ruling over you, as you can see the czechs never spoke german, and they were taken over (without a fight i may add) in 1938!


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## plan_D (Apr 16, 2004)

Now, now the Czechs had no support, there was no point in them fighting when they knew they would never win. Chamberlain...<ahem> get off your ass and do something....


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## plan_D (Apr 16, 2004)

And you think paratroopers would have been able to take Britain? Crete 1941, paratroopers took it with 25% losses, that's a big load of people to lose. 

The German idea was to move across with paratroopers but the main force and deciding factor would be their tanks. Without them, the paratroopers would be destroyed by the Armour we had at home.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 18, 2004)

> Churchill had prepared the most well organised resistance movement had we been taken, better than the French



it's not hard to beat the french................


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## brad (Apr 18, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> a b-29 dropped n A-bomb on germany?  when? and where  lol:


 in japan


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 18, 2004)

since when was japan in germany, is there something our geography teacher isn't telling us................


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## brad (Apr 19, 2004)

no the b-29 droped an abomb on japan you no near china


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## brad (Apr 19, 2004)

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss i am a snake


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 19, 2004)

lol we was discusing which plane would drap an a-bomb on germany, not which plane actually dropped one on japan


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## brad (Apr 20, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> lol we was discusing which plane would drap an a-bomb on germany, not which plane actually dropped one on japan


 what does lol mean


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## plan_D (Apr 22, 2004)

Laugh out loud. 

C.C, 'drap an a-bomb' drap?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 24, 2004)

it's like dropping it, but you must be upside down to do it...................


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 24, 2004)

the bomb would go through the plane wouldnt it? anyway, the bombardier would have to block the pilots view by sitting on top of the cockpit, and then he wouldnt be able to reach the bomb release button!! plus, the bomb would INDEED go through the plane and rip it in half!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 24, 2004)

or they could relese the bomb upside down, then turn over................


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## Dan (Apr 24, 2004)

one of the minor problems with the ME 262 is that it could only reach a top speed of mach 0.7. now that might not be a problem but the wings also weren't swept back, and that can easly lead to loss of control for the pilots. but hey it still was a damn fine plane


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 24, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> or they could relese the bomb upside down, then turn over................


 it would rip a wing off so how about they "drap" it sideways or just drop it because if the "drapped" it upside down and flipped, it would maybe rip the wings off from stress or the wing would get ripped off by the bomb


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## plan_D (Apr 25, 2004)

The Me262 was reported to break the sound barrier, Dan. If you've noticed the record achieved by the Bell X-1 is breaking the sound barrier on level flight because the evidence does point toward Me262s breaking the barrier in a power dive. And not falling apart, although there are reports of them mysteriously falling apart...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 25, 2004)

> but the wings also weren't swept back,



yes they were..............


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## GLS (Apr 26, 2004)

Here's my two cents worth. No the 262 could not have changed the out come of the war. As good as the 262 might have been, here are a few things to mull over.. The 262 was faster than the meteor by about 45 to 50 mph, however the American P-80 held about a 5 mph lead over the 262.both the Meteor and the P-80 had a higher service ceiling than the 262. As did the Spitfire, the Tempest, the P-47, the P-38 and the P-51. The British designed centrifical jet engines, that were used in the Meteor and the P-80, were far more reliable lasting for hundreds of hours of operation as opposed to the germans life that could be measured in the 10s of hours at best. Admittedly the 4 30mm cannon of the 262 were heavier than the 6 fifty cals of the P-80, but the 4 20mm of the Meteor would be a good match. When it comes to range, the 262 beats the P-80 by about 100 miles, but the clear winner is the meteor with a range that is near that of other two combined. I recall reading many years ago an artical about the joint-services evaluation of axis aircraft against the allied aircraft that took place after the war. The Meteor and the 262 were fairly equal in manuverabillity, while the P-80 could out turn them both that may not have been as big an advantage as one might first think.

So in the end the Meteor had the range to take the battle to Germany, choose when to attack the 262 from a superior altitude and I'm sure then regain that heigth for another attack.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 27, 2004)

i would rather be in a meteor than a 262................


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 29, 2004)

and me 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 1, 2004)

i always thought you prefered the 262?...........


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## cheddar cheese (May 2, 2004)

i do 8) im indecisive like that, y'know


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 2, 2004)

yes, you turn like sour milk.............


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## cheddar cheese (May 3, 2004)

a rather cliché simile there


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## Crazy (May 3, 2004)

I would definately prefer being in a P-80 or Meteor to being in a 262 8)


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## plan_D (May 4, 2004)

I've just noticed the poll thing, why is it "Yes 49%"..."No 50%"..that's only 99% what did the other 1% say...hahah..that's messed up...


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## cheddar cheese (May 4, 2004)

i dunno


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## plan_D (May 5, 2004)

It's ok now, it's 50-50.


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## cheddar cheese (May 5, 2004)

its amazing how close this poll has been


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## plan_D (May 5, 2004)

It proves the mixed feeling on the 'Swallow'.


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## cheddar cheese (May 7, 2004)

swallow.... was the the 262's nickname or summit?


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## Lightning Guy (May 7, 2004)

Or maybe it proves the question to be ambigiuous. Clearly the Me-262 didn't win the war for the Axis. Had in been in service a year earlier, maybe. Had it been in service two yars earlier definitely. I'm not sure what kinda time frame we are talking here.


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## cheddar cheese (May 7, 2004)

but surely if the 262 had been in service earlier then the brits would have had jets in service earlier too


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## plan_D (May 7, 2004)

Yes, Swallow is the Me-262s name. The British had jets earlier, so did the Americans.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 8, 2004)

the brittish had jets earlier, but thhey were experimental, they didn't carry guns.............


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## plan_D (May 8, 2004)

Yes, well everything needs to be tested before being into production.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 9, 2004)

it's strange, the 1st jet to fly for the allies didn't use the same engines as the meteor............


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## plan_D (May 9, 2004)

Maybe that's because the Meteor engines were better?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 14, 2004)

i realise that, but it wasn't long between the E.28/39 and the advent of the meteor, it didn't give them long to deign a new engine...................


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## plan_D (May 14, 2004)

Amazing things happen in Wars. A British Truck Company (I'll find the name) designed an engine for a tank in 18 days, and the engine was 10 times the power of anything they had designed before.


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## Lightning Guy (May 15, 2004)

Look at how quickly North American put out the design for the NA 73 - the eventual P-51. Something like 120 days.


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## plan_D (May 15, 2004)

As I said, amazing things happen in war.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 15, 2004)

> Something like 120 days.



117 days............


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## Lightning Guy (May 15, 2004)

So I was right.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 16, 2004)

yes


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

That was a quick agreement, maybe a record.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 22, 2004)

at the risk of sounding like myself, yes.


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## brad (May 25, 2004)

yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssss


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## cheddar cheese (May 25, 2004)

yesh comrade 8)


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## Erich (May 25, 2004)

had the Luftwaffe had the Me 262A-1a with adequate fuel supplies in 1942 and no faulty engines they would of most probably been ready for the US heavy bomber raids to follow over the Reich. The outcome would of been hard to determine.


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## Lightning Guy (May 25, 2004)

If the Luftwaffe had the 262 in 1942 they would have run over everybody, no question. If it could have been available in numbers (with fuel to fly and compotent pilots) in '44 is the situation were it becomes hard to deteremine, IMO.


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## plan_D (May 26, 2004)

Having the Me-262 in 1942 would have caused major problems, but it wouldn't have been. Asking it without faulty engines, and enough fuel is asking a lot. 
Being ready in 1944 I don't believe it could have done. It wouldn't have stopped D-Day (As the Germans didn't even know it was happening in Normandy) and the only real threat it would have caused would have been at the Bulge. Even then P-51s were still able to effectively dogfight with these things.


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## Erich (May 26, 2004)

this still goes back to the mighty what-if. The Luftwaffe had the Me 262 in combat in the summer of 1944 taking on P-38's, Mossies and Spitfires. Granted only on singular missions before Kommando Nowotny really started to be a viable outfit.


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## Lightning Guy (May 26, 2004)

Most of the kills over the 262 were scored directly over its airfields though. The speed advantage the 262 had in the air gave it a certain level of immunity.


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## Erich (May 26, 2004)

early in the conflict of 44 and also towards wars end. yes the defensive program the Luftwaffe initiated for it's airfields was wanting. the 262 turning radius was terrible and P-51 pilots were able to figure this out and close in for the kill.


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## Lightning Guy (May 26, 2004)

I didn't think the solution of using 109s and 190s to cover the airfields was that great either. It seems to be that just took away fighters that could have otherwise been intercepting the bombers.


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## Erich (May 27, 2004)

I think as the Luftwaffe was down to it's last dying hope was that speed and a heavy armament could win the day: "super weapons"

JV 44 had the Fw 190D's and Kommando Nowotny were protected, well sort of by III./JG 54 Dora's which were simply wiped out of the sky by P-51's. that is it. JG 7's airfields had plenty of 2cm Flakvierlings but still was not enough to protect their Me 262's upon landing and taking off. also the bomber units had 2cm weapons and the same results happened on the edges of the fields.............down goes another 262 on fire.........

~E ♠


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## kiwimac (May 27, 2004)

Had the RLM gone with the HE 280 which was available pre-1942 which was, even then, more manouverable that a FW-190, the results could have been very different.

Kiwimac


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## Erich (May 27, 2004)

somethings we will never know. How about that late war experiment, Gotha flying wing. Funny what has been taken over by the Allies and now some 55 years into the future we are seeing the fruits of the German techs labor. Stealth equipment


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## Lightning Guy (May 27, 2004)

The Gotha Go 229 would have been a match for just about anything flying, planned, or even thought of. 

I have heard that Germany actually at one point cancelled everything that couldn't be made available in something like 2 years because they expected to have one the war. Any truth to that?


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## Erich (May 27, 2004)

not sure but the drawing boards had some 25 different desgins some having gone through wooden mock-ups. had the war last another year or 2 we would have some pics of some wild looking swept-back winged a/c, provided the fuels and airfields would have been available


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## plan_D (May 28, 2004)

Straight after the war their technology came into practice; the Ta183 with an extended fuselage and lowered tail plane, with a British Rolls Royce Nene engine became the Mig-15. 
The F-86 being very similar only it had lighter armament and a Armstrong-Siddeley Sapphire (Another British) engine in it. 

The British had the Canberra (Bomber) flying in 1947 so they must have had some pretty good planes on the drawing board by late war.


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## cheddar cheese (May 28, 2004)

heres one. would the go-229 have been a match for the E.E lightning?


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## plan_D (May 28, 2004)

I don't know the full capabilities of the Go-229 but I'm still going to say the EE Lightning would be untouchable since nothing could match its rate of climb or speed for that matter until the designs in the 70s of which the aircraft came into service in the 80s. 
The F.6 Lightning Mach 2.3 at 40,000ft. 2 minutes 30 seconds to 40,000ft and Mach 0.9 (Operational speed and height); Ceiling 60,000ft. Two 30mm Aden cannons, and two Firestreak missiles which had a speed of at least Mach 2 at 40,000ft, warhead of 50lbs and range of 4 miles (low range, I know but this is the 40s). 
The Lightning could out run most missiles of that time, nothing could match it. 

Now, get back on with the World War 2 discussion.


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## Erich (May 28, 2004)

to get back on the topic of the Me 262. JG 7 is recorded to have scored some 425 victories in it's short career. A fantastic record if actually true. although a major work by author Manfred Boehme was written there are still many unknowns about the missions flown by the Geschwader. I. and III. gruppes were equipped with the Me 262A-1a and the II. gruppe was never really in action but was in effect a paper unit used for a moral booster and propaganada tool against Allied forces. In fact some resources have reported that II.. gruppe was the high cover unit protecting the jets of the other two guppen upon landing and taking off and equipped with the Bf 109G. this is quite incorrect as this the major German jet unit only had field 2cm flak to protect the machines from US P-51's.

so distressed was the Reich higher-archy during the fall and winter of 44-45 that Kurt Welter was tasked with starting a small Kommando of Me 262A-1a's for night fighter duty against the ever high flying Mossie bombers of the LSNF. The Bf 109's had only been partially sucessful and were not able to turn the Mosquito bombers from their nuisance raids upon Berlin. the Me 262 was to help but although victories were scored, again the willfulness of the LSNF endured and continued the raids till April of 45. 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 29, 2004)

the Go-299 would have been an amazing plane, but it would have come to late, what's the point in having a great plane like that if you can bearly fuel it, you also have to remeber the gemmans had many ideas that would have made things akward, but they would all be to late............


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## plan_D (May 30, 2004)

By early 1945 the Germans would have had to have something huge, like the atom bomb. To have any effect on the war. They say the A-10 German ICBM might have ended it but I doubt it.


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## plan_D (Jun 2, 2004)

The Me-262A-1a certainly had an impressive record; Kommando Nowotny claimed 22 kills in its first month of service. III/JG 7 claims 427 aircraft of which some 300 were 4-engined bombers. 
Some were armed with 24 R4/M air-to-air spin-stabilised rockets which led to the post-war Mighty Mouse FFAR folding-fin aircraft rocket. 

Erich, I haven't read much on the combat record of the Me-262A-2a 'Sturmvogel'...did it do any good?


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## Erich (Jun 2, 2004)

friend the JG 7 unit as a whole claimed upwards 400 kills plus, not just III. gruppe alone. though it has been very hard to get the concisive reports as to how many Allied a/c they did indeed take down.

The A-2 was junk and this is one of the reasons KG 51 and 54 went over to the fighter designation (J) for Jäger. although still performing ground attacks against the Soviets in March/April of 45 till they surrendered....


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## plan_D (Jun 2, 2004)

I apologise for the mistake. 

This may be asking a bit much but can you explain the full titles and the type of sqaudron under all the letters in the Luftwaffe? 
I heard that the delay in production wasn't because of Hitlers request to arm them with bombs but was because of engine delays. Is that true? Since before I read that is was all 'Hitler delayed everything'...


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## Erich (Jun 2, 2004)

Hitlers intent was to have a Schnellbomber since he was still stuck on this idea. bombers, bombers, bombers, that will surely win us the war although he sure must have been somewhere else and not with reality come winter of 44/45, with his scheme of capturing Antwerp and throwing the Allies into the sea, etc.............
fuels, engines and the spare parts was surely of prime concern. I still think there was some serious doubt that JG 7 and previous Kommando Nowotny could do anything with the swallow, even with verbal high hopes and best wishes.

sure what are you interested in as to numbers and vocabulary ?

squadron=staffel
group=gruppe although we must bear in mind that a US fighter group was the whole combined unit and a Gruppe for the Luftwaffe was made up first of 3 staffeln and then in mid-August onward of 4 staffeln except for the night fighters which remained at 3.

Geschwader was the complete unit of 3-4 gruppen. Each staffel had between 10 and 15 a/c generally. So by looking at this we can hopefully determine that there were 40-60 aircraft in the Geschwader(wing) plus the gruppen stab of 6-8 a/c.

Each staffel had a number and this number was colored to indicated the staffel. The staff had a seperate colored number..........yeah I know this is confusing.....

example for II./JG 301 flying the Fw 190A-9 in the late fall of 44.

II. gruppe stab(staff) either black or green ?
5th staffel -white
6th staffel -red
7th staffel -yellow
8th staffel - blue

does this help ?


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## plan_D (Jun 2, 2004)

That helped a lot. However I'm a little confused as to the order in which the Gruppe, Staffel and Geschwader were in. Was it; One Geschwader had 3-4 Gruppe and one Gruppe and 3-4 Staffel? 
 
I'm also interested in the names and types of units abbrieviations like the letters for the type of aircraft flown like Nightfighter Squadrons, or Ground attack for example. 

Also what were the Kommando squadrons..elite units? 

This is asking a lot but I'll hope you'll help. Thank you in advance.


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## Erich (Jun 2, 2004)

You are correct with the gruppe in the Geschwader.

4 staffels in 1 gruppe. 3-4 gruppe in a Geschwader.

I am quite weak when it comes to the ground attacks numerations, but besides numbers, a Captial letter was often used to denote a particular a/c.

for the Night fighters here ya go !

single engine were numbered like the day fighters 109's and 190's

twin engine were lettered as thus.

Geschwader stab A
I. gruppe B
II. gruppe C
III. gruppe D
IV. gruppe E
V. gruppe F 

1st staffel H
2nd staffel K
3rd staffel L

4th staffel M
5th staffel N
6th staffel P

7th staffel R
8th staffel S
9th staffel T

10th staffel U
11th staffel V
12th staffel W

13th staffel X
14th staffel Y
15th staffel Z

sometimes there was an un-offical 16th staffel that was used as a training or nachtjagd schule

E ~


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## Erich (Jun 3, 2004)

must be getting late in my head..........

also the 16th staffel could be a replacement unit for personell.

Kommando's were generally a start up or test unit(s) example is Kommando Nowotny. although he was the Kommandeur and the squadron was actually bigger than a staffel with some 20 a/c or so it was not a permanent geschwader with a high grade of ground personell needed to make the unit mobil and totally self sufficient. Kommando Welter was the same testing the Me 262 for night missions. Successful as it was at first Welter was then tasked to search for other night marksman from exisiting single and twin engine night fighters as well as night fighter instructors. The dessignation 10th staffel was used but also II. gruppe for propaganda reasons though there already existed a II./NJG 11 equipped with the Bf 109G-14/AS and G-10's in January of 45 till war's end. The 10th staffel was generally in theiry a seperate unit from it's mother Geschwader but not all the time. Day fighter staffel 10./JG 11 equipped with the Bf 109 G and Fw 190A was seperate from the JG 11 for a good portion of its existance..........
10.(N)/JG 300 which forms the first part of our book was a seperate anti-Mosquito unit to fly at night with the Bf 109G-6/AS in the summer and fall of 1944. The rest of the staffeln in III./JG 300 flew day time missions. the 10th staffel in this case did serve on the same base as III. gruppe staffels at Jüterbog


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## plan_D (Jun 3, 2004)

That is all great, thank you. I'm probably getting annoying now but there is one final thing...Example: III/JG 7. Does that mean Drei Gruppe/Jager-Geschwader sieben? Or in my terms 3rd Group of Fighter Wing 7. And am I right to assume that NJG is Nacht Jager Geschwader? Also off writing is there anyway of knowing what the Staffel is? There really should be a book with the explanation in...  

All this rush is sort of confusing me, but I think, or at least hope I'm getting it right. Thank you in advance, and I apologise if I am being annoying. 

Danke Schon.


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## Erich (Jun 3, 2004)

3rd Gruppe, Jagdgeschwader 7 III./JG 7

NJG = Nachtjagdgeschwader

gruppes are marked in Roman numerals........ I, II, III, IV, V, VI

staffels are identified with numerals............ 1,2,3,4, 5,6,7,8 9,10,11,12, etc..........

staffeln were marked with different colours and I have a listing of the jagdgeschwader colours if interested..... ?


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## plan_D (Jun 3, 2004)

Is it the same organisation for Ground Attack, Bomber, Fighter and Nightfighter wings, or any other kind of wing for that matter? 

And just finally to clarify: 3rd Staffel ~ 4th Gruppe ~ 7th Jagdgeshwader would be; 3.IV/JG 7? 

If that's wrong, I bet you're getting really annoyed now. You should have seen me when I was trying to understand the divisional organisation of Soviet Armour and German Panzer divisions...


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## Erich (Jun 3, 2004)

actually 3rd staffel would be in the I. gruppe. there was no IV./JG 7 anyway. but besdie the point. the third staffel in a IVth gruppe would be 12th staffel.

does this help ? maybe not..........


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## plan_D (Jun 3, 2004)

Yes, I was simply using the numbers of an example. So 3rd Staffel~1st Gruppe~7th Jagdgeschwader would be 3.I/JG 7?

And also JG is obviously fighter wing, and NJG is night fighter wing. What would be the letters for bomber and ground attack wings?


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## Erich (Jun 3, 2004)

bomber = Kampfgeschwader or KG

ground attack = Schlachtgeschwader or SG

remember though when you say 3./JG 7 it should read 3rd staffel Jagdgeschwader 7 , not 7th Fighter wing. It sounds fine in English but is not proper in the German


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## plan_D (Jun 3, 2004)

I've got it now. Danke Schon.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jun 3, 2004)

Erich said:


> The A-2 was junk and this is one of the reasons KG 51 and 54 went over to the fighter designation (J) for Jäger.


That is not entirely true. As a ground attack aircraft, it was great. The problem was that it was last-ditch (Even more-so than the A-1) and it didn't have too big of an effect because there was no way it couald have. Gas was scarce and they were surrounded and being closed in on at an ever increasing pace.


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## Erich (Jun 3, 2004)

the A-2 was not considered a ground attack a/c but a bomber. the a/c was not good as it was too fast and the pilots had much trouble homing in their payload onto the targets. One reason the two units went over to tacakling the bombers first and secondary bomber missions.


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## plan_D (Jun 3, 2004)

Me-262A-2a were put into Kampfgeschwaders...bomber units, right? See, I'm getting it...


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## Erich (Jun 3, 2004)

correct and then the inventory of the A-1a when the KG 51 and 54 became (J) Jäger units.........


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## Stuka-99 (Jun 7, 2004)

I'm still convinced that if Me-262 could have won the war for the Axis.
Although there is one mayor factor in this discussion that I think nearly everone has missed...
The japanese could have used it in there fight against america in the east.
Using Aircraft carriers to bomb the U.S.A. Mainland wich would have caused trouble for moral in America.Of course after wining the battle of Midway what do you think?


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 7, 2004)

Japan was very late getting the Me-262 and I doubt they had a workable aircraft carrier left by that time. Numerous Japanese carriers were esentially sunk in their berths and the Shinano was sunk by a submarine while they were moving it to be fitted out. I don't think it is realistic to say the Japanese could have used the 262 to inflict any appreciable damage to the US.


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## Stuka-99 (Jun 8, 2004)

So you're telling me that if the japs had won the battle of Midway the allieswould have still won the war???


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 8, 2004)

yes i think they would, they could out-produse the japs and had home advantage..............


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 9, 2004)

I've posted this link before but apparently Stuka hasn't seen it. The short of it is that even if American lost Midway, it wouldn't have made much difference. If America had lost all three carriers involved in Midway, she would have been able to catch Japan in total numbers of fleet carriers by Sept. '43 and in 9 more months have a 2-1 advantage. Take a look and see just how far American industrial power outstripped Japan.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm


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## plan_D (Jun 10, 2004)

It's quite simple really, America out-produced everyone. Although these are from 1936 you can see how much America was ahead in motorised veichle production (Which gives the base for an impressive economy): 

America 77.2%
Britain 7.8%
Germany 4.8%
France 3.5%
Canada 3.4%
Italy 0.9% 
Others 2.4%

That's the percentage of motorised veichles built by them, in the world. Now, Japan isn't even in the top 6, so it could have never reached Americas production capability. Interestingly though, Russia isn't in the top six. I wonder where all their economy, designs, worker skill and tools came from? Britain, France, America and Germany perhaps?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 12, 2004)

but remeber that list is done by production of cars, and i would imagine, but i don't know for sure, that russia didn't really care much for cars??


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## plan_D (Jun 12, 2004)

Motor veichles, it incorporates anything with an internal combustion engine. That's tanks as well. And for a good economy you needed a good transport system, and the most efficient ran on the internal combustion engine with good roads. That's why Hitler ordered the construction of the Auto-Bahns you hear so much about today, 700km worth to be precise.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 12, 2004)

at the time though didn't germany depend more on her huge rail network??


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 13, 2004)

The cars percentages serves as an example of the industrial capacity of a nation. When you consider that the American automobile industry started churning out planes and tanks during the war, you get an idea of the economic and industrial advantages they enjoyed.


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## plan_D (Jun 13, 2004)

No Germany relied on her road network, Hitler and the German generals realised that a rail network is limited. And no effective economy could run a rail network alone.


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## Erich (Jun 13, 2004)

this is all OT gentlemen ! please get back on topic ok ?


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jun 13, 2004)

plan_D said:


> Motor veichles, it incorporates anything with an internal combustion engine. That's tanks as well. And for a good economy you needed a good transport system, and the most efficient ran on the internal combustion engine with good roads. That's why Hitler ordered the construction of the Auto-Bahns you hear so much about today, 700km worth to be precise.



The pic shows another use of this great road.


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## plan_D (Jun 14, 2004)

I've seen that pic before, the caption I saw was funnier. It was something like 'Another way to get to the target'.


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## ev0 (Jun 17, 2004)

Didn't the me-262's engines blow up if you went from "0% to 100%" to fast?


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## Erich (Jun 17, 2004)

it depended on the amount of thrust given through the turbines, this was at a distinct disadvnatage on a climbing turn. Several times Me 262's at night of Kommando Welter would have a "flame-out" where one engine would actually shut down.

~E


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## plan_D (Jun 17, 2004)

Flame-out not meaning the engine blew up, just shut down. It happens on aircraft these days as well. 

Erich, on the test 262 the pilot had to brake a little on take off to get the tail up. Did they have to do that on all variants?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 18, 2004)

no as with the prototype it had tailweel landing gear, the pilot had to break a little to get the tail in the air, he didn't need to do that on all varients as the rest had noseweel landing gear.....................


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## plan_D (Jun 18, 2004)

That's true, I didn't think of that...where's the stupid thing so I can do it on myself.     That'll have to do.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 20, 2004)

ohhhhh, that tomato one's a bit harsh isn't it.....................


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## ev0 (Jul 1, 2004)

thought I read that the engines did blow up . Oh well. Btw, when was the first me-262's ready? What date?


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 2, 2004)

The Me-262 made its first jet-powered flight on July 18th, 1942. The first delivery was made in May of 1944 but it didn't enter regular squadron service until Sept. of that year.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jul 2, 2004)

Kinda. EkDo 262 had it flying in combat in April of '44. The first two kills were scored on a) a Mossie and b) a P-38, both on Photo-Recce missions.

How ironic, no matter how much you guys argue whats better, the Me-262 comes out on top!


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## plan_D (Jul 2, 2004)

I read the EKdo 262 started armed flights in July 1944 and the first to be shot down by them were two F-5 Lightnings and a PR. Mosquito. And that unit became Kommando Nowotny.


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## MattyG (Jul 2, 2004)

Most of the posts seem to say "No", but I have to say "Yes". If it had been produced in sufficient numbers early enough. It was air superiority that dictated the tide of the war. The early years belonged to the Germans. Then, with huge numbers of American aircraft to tip the balance, it went to the Allies. Sufficient 262's would have swept the sky clear of bombers and fighters. German industry would have been unhampered by bombing. And with air superiority on the German side, can you say that the D-day landings would have succeeded?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 2, 2004)

but that's it, they would have to have been produced earlier, which they weren't..........................


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## plan_D (Jul 3, 2004)

And it seems in his eyes there were no British planes over the skies of Europe.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 3, 2004)

and that the 262 was invinsible.....................................


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jul 3, 2004)

plan_D said:


> I read the EKdo 262 started armed flights in July 1944 and the first to be shot down by them were two F-5 Lightnings and a PR. Mosquito. And that unit became Kommando Nowotny.



Nah, it was April '44.


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## Erich (Jul 3, 2004)

the date was 26 July 1944 with Lt Schreiber claiming 1 mossie downed but in actuality the Mossie landed without problem.

Schreiber scored or claimed the second kill of the 262 in August 2, of 44, this being over a Spitfire. Lt Weber scored the third claim on August 8, 1944 over a Mossie


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## Huckebein (Jul 4, 2004)

IMHO the '262 alone couldn't have won the war, even had it been in service by late '43, a year earlier than it was. It would have established complete, but temporary, air-superiority, but then all that would be needed to counteract them would be to flood Europe with P-51s etc, watching the jets' bases. We all know how vulnerable the Schwalbe was on takeoff and landing, and they would always have been heavily outnumbered. Barring the early introduction into active service of first-class prop-fighters to cover the jets near the ground (such as the Dora 9, which could have been ready in '43 were it not for interfering beaurocrats), the Allies would simply have had to fight a very costly war of attrition withh the jets: thousands of high-performance prop-fighters constantly harrassing a few hundred (max) jets. Once they were under control, the bombing of industry could begin, and there'd be no way back for the Nazis...

No, the '262, after say 1942, was not a war-winner all on its own.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jul 4, 2004)

Beaver, there would be more than hundreds of jets, they Germans completed a bit (about 42) more than 1,300!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 5, 2004)

the 262 couldn't have won it on it's own, there was nothing they could do about the advance through France and into Germany after D-Day.................


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## plan_D (Jul 8, 2004)

If the Luftwaffe had a large enough number of Schwalbes during the Normandy campaign, I think they could have stopped the Allies advance. The Germans weren't short on people, and they had plenty (greatly superior) tanks to combat the Allied tanks. 
It was Allied Air Superiority that forced the Wehrmacht to move at night, and be strafed and bombed during the day. In my opinion if the Me-262 was around during D-Day (in large enough numbers) it could have stopped, or at least delayed, the Allied invasion. It would have gained air superiority easily.


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## dead parrot (Jul 8, 2004)

Am I right in assuming that the landings were planned and carried out on assumption of (essential) local air supremacy? If the allies did not have this because of the presence of Me262s in force, I wonder if they would have delayed the entire operation until they could defeat the Me262s, sort of like a Battle of Britain in reverse.


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## ev0 (Jul 8, 2004)

One aircraft can not change the course of a war on its own if you talk realisticly. In the scale that the aircraft would have to be produced and armed it would not have been possible.


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## Erich (Jul 8, 2004)

no the Allies had to move as this was a request from Stalin so the Soviets could engae in a more offensive manner, also the Allies in the south coming up the butt of Italy. so in essence this was a three-pronged move.
i do not feel the Luftwaffe even with the Schwalbe could of overtaken the supreme numbers of Allied craft on 6 of June. although this of course is a huge what if the a/c was just too short term with limited range and quirkey engine troubles. Granted if all of this had been worked out we would of heard of jet a/c hitting beyond 650 mph in the flat out, as the me 262 was suppose to have a more smooth re-streamlined fuselage and roomier cockpit.........but of course this is all unknown


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## Huckebein (Jul 8, 2004)

They did make over a thousand '2652s, yes, but only a few saw service because of engine troubles and a chaotic trnsport infrastructure caused by the Allies' Tactical bomber forces. To have more than a thousand '262s flying, taking into account real-world aircraft/ transport serviceability/ reliability figures, the actual production number per month for Me 262s would have been far too high for Germany's Aircraft Industry to cope with.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 8, 2004)

> To have more than a thousand '262s flying



you make it sound like they were all up ther at the same time, which they weren't, i think you ceem to think that the 262 was invincible, but it wasn't.....................


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## dead parrot (Jul 8, 2004)

Erich said:


> no the Allies had to move as this was a request from Stalin so the Soviets could engae in a more offensive manner, also the Allies in the south coming up the butt of Italy. so in essence this was a three-pronged move.



Yes, but Stalin also wanted them to go in 43 too, but the allies decided they weren't ready-Italy was a compromise, of sorts.

I know it is a far-fetched what if, but if the German jets could've brought a virtual end to strategic bombing in Germany, and thus freed the Luftwaffe to move back into France, and if the jets then allowed the Luftwaffe to acquire the kind of local air superiority that the allies actually enjoyed, the overlord invasion would have been a whole different proposition...


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 8, 2004)

There were only about 300 Me-262s to actually make it into service.


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## plan_D (Jul 9, 2004)

There was no attack on Allied shipping while in the channel on 6th June. This was due to not only local but operational air superiority. We ruled the skies. 
Had the 262 been ready in large enough numbers attacks would have been happening on that invasion force. A Mustang, or any other plane for that matter, didn't have much chance to stop them diving down on the ships. 

As for the four-engined bombers well JG7 (Erich-correction may be in order) if I remember claimed 427 kills in its first month 300 of them were four-engined bombers.


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## Erich (Jul 9, 2004)

Plan the JG 7 unit claimed over 400 kills during the whole war.

actually the Schnellboote units out of two French channel bases did attack Allied shipping an scored. I have the records from Germany..........


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## Huckebein (Jul 9, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> > To have more than a thousand '262s flying
> 
> 
> 
> you make it sound like they were all up ther at the same time, which they weren't, i think you ceem to think that the 262 was invincible, but it wasn't.....................



By 'flying' I meant operational/ serviceable. And I am quite aware that the '262 was far from invincible; as I said in my previous post they woud still have needed piston-engined fighter cover during takeoff and landing, no matter how many there were.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 9, 2004)

not just while taking off/landing, there were many fighters that could outmanouver it......................


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## Huckebein (Jul 9, 2004)

Yeah, that too...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 9, 2004)

and it wouldn't have been able to keep it's top speed for long...................


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 9, 2004)

And was very vulnerable on take-off and landing since the Luftwaffe couldn't even maintain air superiority over its own bases. Total Luftwaffe daylight sorties against the Normandy beach head: 2 Fw-190s. The 262s would have had trouble over the beach as well due to the number of Allied fighters in the proximity as well as the AA guns on the ships.


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## plan_D (Jul 10, 2004)

Over 100 Me-262s fell to P-51s and P-47s. The '262' would have been able to gain air superiority with ease, when JG7 gets 427 kills from late 1944 to VE day. 

The Allied pilots had to work out tactics to destroy the Schwalbes, diving down on them when the '262' was climbing to match their speed, and such. Taking on a 262 wasn't an easy task.


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## Lightning Guy (Jul 10, 2004)

But most of those kills weren't over fighters. The Allies had a huge numerical advantage over the 262 that couldn't be overcome.


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## plan_D (Jul 10, 2004)

427 from one Geschwader, 300 were four-engined bombers. You've still got around 100 being fighters. And just over 100 '262s' were claimed by P-51s and P-47s over all. Then you've got the other Jv44, Kommando Welter and Kommando Nowotny kills. Maybe Erich could help us with that.


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## Erich (Jul 10, 2004)

JV 44 is unoffcially given credit for at least 45 Allied a/c which I do not believe, and the reason from my perspective is that the unit was on the constant move and stationed in southern Germany/Austria for a time being where there was not much bomber activity except for 9th AF B-26's, P-47's on occassion. there was talk of the unit being absorbed into JG 7 for it's IV. gruppe and on paper it was.

10./NJG 11 aka Kommando Welter..............well let's just say it is a surprise which will be dealt with at some length on certain ops in our book.

Ekdo 262 the first jet fighter unit had approx. 21 kills

Kommando Nowotny roughly 33 kills

III./EJG 2 had around 20 or so kills.

I./KG(J) 54 around 30 kills

E ~


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## plan_D (Jul 10, 2004)

Did only I/KG (J) 54 use the '262'? Or was it the whole Geschwader, and only I Staffel got the kills? Those were Me-262A-2a, correct? 

The same with III./EJG 2, was it only the III Staffel using them? And what does EJG stand for? 

Thanks in advance.


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## Erich (Jul 12, 2004)

Actualy the KG 54 was still used on fighter as well as bomber missions on soviet territory especially. In fact while based close to Prague on small air strips they were jumped continually by US P-51's. think II. gruppe operated them but suffered the fate under US .50's on their way to supportive ground attck missions.

There was a I. and II. gruppe of EJG as well and am not sure the designation // JG would indicate = jagdgeschwader. E possibly Eratz ?

E ♪


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## Schrage Muzik (Jul 17, 2004)

One fast plane does not a superior air force make.

What the Germans needed was bombers. Big, strategic bombers. It was the Fortresses, Lancs, and Liberators that did them in, crippled their production capacity.

The He. 219 was a good start, but that silly requirement that it be usable as a dive bomber killed it. If the Horten brothers had been able to build their flying wing bomber concept, that would have been a cruicial aircraft.


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## plan_D (Jul 17, 2004)

That's the same mentality as Hitler. The Luftwaffe didn't need bombers by 1944, it needed fighters. And the Me-262 was not only fast, but very heavily armed and a perfectly capable aircraft. 

In 1940 big four-engined bombers would have been most likely war-winning, but by 1944 the need was gone. Hit and run bombers and defensive fighters were needed. The Me-262 probably covered both roles better than most things. Plus it had night fighter to its name.


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## Schrage Muzik (Jul 18, 2004)

I know that. They needed bombers early on, to hammer at britain's industrial capacity, rather than just fling buzz bombs around.

Fighters and tactical bombers are largely defense, and defense does not win wars.


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## plan_D (Jul 18, 2004)

Buzz Bombs were 1944 when Germany was getting desperate. In Germanys situation in 1944 Heavies would not have got them anywhere. The bomber streams had to be stopped, and nothing better than the Me-262. 

In 1940 Heavies would have won the day. Fighters are both offensive and defensive, Fighter sweeps could be made of allied positions. Plus any ground attack aircraft such as the Me-262A-2a could be used to smash enemy armoured columns before any counter attack.


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## dead parrot (Jul 19, 2004)

The Me262 in numbers over Normandy would have definitely changed the outcome of that corner of WW2, I think. The only reason the allied armies on the ground in France could hold on in the beginning was air supremacy, including the ability to not only protect protect their own armor but attack the German. The Germans couldn't even move in daylight because of this, so despite their superior armor they eventually were driven back.

Lots of Me262s would have (a) slowed the Typhoon and P-51 attacks and, as plan_D points out, (b) play havoc with the allied ground forces. Not to mention they might have cut off the naval supply lines over the channel.

I don't think it would have won the war, but had it been built in numbers in '43, it would stopped the immediate threat of a Western Front invasion in 1944, I reckon.


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## Erich (Jul 21, 2004)

DP I think if the Luftwaffe techs and the government has the foresight probably 1942 when the 262 was undertesting, the unit could have been in production and most probably the Allies would have had to step up their own fast paced a/c lines to compete with a new look, fast and sleek. Counters would of course evolved but how long would it have taken. Remember the 262's engines were faulty and limted amount of fuels could be carried by the a/c except the two-seat night fighter that carried the two forward drop tanks, but that did slow the jet down substantially..... so this would of had to be remedied. would the dreaded Third Reich have been able to have the borrowed time to work unceasingly on their jet's to fixed the harassing problems ? hard to say


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## plan_D (Jul 22, 2004)

The engines in Britain were starting to get well advanced so, although they only had the Meteor in the war there was possibility for better things. The Rolls-Royce Nene engine was developed in 1942, and it was 5000 lbs thrust. The most powerful engine in the world at the time. And it was cheap, economical and reliable.


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## hundy (Sep 25, 2004)

I think it could have made the war last longer, and cost the allies dearly, however, I don't think the Germans would have won. I think it would have used more of the reasources, that they were running out of.


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## cheddar cheese (Sep 25, 2004)

Nice view 8) welcome to the site, hope you stick around


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## lesofprimus (Sep 25, 2004)

By the time the -262 became operational, the war was already lost... Adolph Galland even stated this....


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## cheddar cheese (Sep 25, 2004)

But the original question was. "Could it have won the war if it was in the war earlier?"


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## lesofprimus (Sep 25, 2004)

Galland seemed to think so....


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## cheddar cheese (Sep 25, 2004)

I dont  one plane cant have such a dramatic effect on any war


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## lesofprimus (Sep 25, 2004)

Hmmmm.... There was an article I read from a P-51 pilot who witnessed a -262 attack on a bomber formation during their bomb drop.... The -262's attack caused 6 bombers to basically disintegrate in 1 pass....

If the -262 was put into service earlier, along with the Ta-152, and they used them the way Galland wanted to, as fighters, then MAYBE it could have altered the war somewhat....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 26, 2004)

i dunno because we still had the land offensive and weight of numbers.............


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## cheddar cheese (Sep 26, 2004)

I agree with Les, but didnt we have the E.E Lightning in developmet toward the end of the war?


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## lesofprimus (Sep 26, 2004)

Lanc, ur right somewhat, but if Galland and his "Jets" were able to make an earlier impact, German industry wouldnt have been so cut back... More fighter aircraft to stop Allied bombers, more panzers manufactured, more -262's, more U-boats, more -152's ect ect....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 26, 2004)

CC, the EE lightening development started in 1946, but if the war had carried on, it would have been bought into service quicker than it did, shame about it's range though...................


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## plan_D (Sep 27, 2004)

The English Electric Lightning was designed in 1947. It was a pure interceptor, so there was no need for long range. It only came into service in 1960.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Sep 27, 2004)

Hello again, how goes the Lufthansa training course?


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## plan_D (Sep 27, 2004)

I'm not on this years, unfortunately. There weren't enough places but out of one hundred people I was in the last 20. They only needed 18 so I have to go back again in a few months, they said I basically be pushed through next time. I can't say I wasn't upset, but that's life. 

It'll be worth the wait though. Plus without being on that course, I can get drunk more.  And I can bother you lot more.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Sep 28, 2004)

More comments like, "God, more complete crap from the fingers of CC and lanc. Does crap spew from your fingers when you point at people?"


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## plan_D (Sep 29, 2004)

Hah! That was long, long ago.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 29, 2004)

and you actually think things have changed?? 

na we have been cutting down on the spam, the return of crazy and HS wont help us though..............


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## plan_D (Sep 29, 2004)

Things have changed, just not on here.


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## cheddar cheese (Sep 29, 2004)

HS sets a bad example  I dont think i can hold out my "mild spam" act for much longer, otherwise people like plan_D will catch up with me on posts


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## plan_D (Sep 30, 2004)

Is that a problem? Are you trying to oppress me?


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## cheddar cheese (Sep 30, 2004)

Hell yeah


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## plan_D (Oct 1, 2004)

You do realise with that name, CC, I will have my Allgemeine-letter-SS kill you twice.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 1, 2004)

As a disbeliever of *he LEZI par*y, i am fil*ering your said le**ers.

And im never going *o vo*e you chancellor...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 1, 2004)

i want to be part of this letter party, what's it called?


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## plan_D (Oct 1, 2004)

We are the National Union of Letter Socialists or Lezi for short. Not Lesi, we aren't a gay rights movement.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 1, 2004)

plan_D Is a lesi  i hadnt noticed


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## plan_D (Oct 2, 2004)

You know how stupid you are for not noticing that LEZI is almost Lesi. Jesus H. Christ...Slow or what!?!


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 2, 2004)

Nope, I dont think that way you know


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## plan_D (Oct 2, 2004)

Are you trying to oppose lesis' now?


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 2, 2004)

nope


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## plan_D (Oct 2, 2004)

Good. I only oppose the ugly, vast majority, of them.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 2, 2004)

so what part would i play in the LEZIs??


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## lesofprimus (Oct 2, 2004)

Slit prepare techinician???


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 2, 2004)

explain.............


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## lesofprimus (Oct 2, 2004)

LEZI - girl on girl - slit=puss - lubricant - preparation ...

Need more clarification???


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 2, 2004)

I cant believe he didnt get that 

Toshaé plan_D...


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## lesofprimus (Oct 2, 2004)

I thought it was a rather funny little bit...


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## plan_D (Oct 2, 2004)

You haven't got me with anything. No Touche there.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 3, 2004)

> LEZI - girl on girl - slit=puss - lubricant - preparation ...
> 
> Need more clarification???



my mistake, i was thinking girl on girl as being lesi, it would apear you really know your porn..............


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## plan_D (Oct 3, 2004)

Hah!


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 3, 2004)

plan_D said:


> You haven't got me with anything. No Touche there.



You cant believe I didnt get the LEZI/lesi connection; i cant believe lanc didnt get the slit preparation thing. Its a semi-touché...


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## lesofprimus (Oct 3, 2004)

And kinda funny....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 4, 2004)

it wasn't my fault...............


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 4, 2004)

Well whos was it?


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## plan_D (Oct 4, 2004)

How is that semi!?! I don't believe I am lanc or represent lanc in any court of law (I refuse to represent the obviously guilty) so you haven't got me with anything!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 5, 2004)

and what would be wrong with representing me in court??


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 5, 2004)

Everything...


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## plan_D (Oct 5, 2004)

I don't represent obviously guilty parties.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 6, 2004)




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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 6, 2004)

ok i'll give you that one............


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 6, 2004)

So you are guitly  "Officer!"


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## plan_D (Oct 6, 2004)

I've known he was guilty for a long time.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 6, 2004)

Have you rea....

Oh no, i just had the most ing thought


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## plan_D (Oct 6, 2004)

If that thought was anything sexual, or more importantly homosexual. I will come and strike you with a sharp object known as a No-Dachi Sword.


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## MichaelHenley (Oct 6, 2004)

I heard that Hitler wanted the 262 as a Light bomber role, but it was too late before it was converted to a fighter role


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## plan_D (Oct 7, 2004)

Hitler did request the 262 to be a bomber. That's the creation of the Me-262A-2a 'Sturmvogel'.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 7, 2004)

plan_D said:


> If that thought was anything sexual, or more importantly homosexual. I will come and strike you with a sharp object known as a No-Dachi Sword.



Then strike me with a sharp object  8)


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## plan_D (Oct 7, 2004)

I did actually state what the sharp object was.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 8, 2004)

Cant I choose my death?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 8, 2004)

hot poker up the asshole would suit you to the ground.............


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 8, 2004)

I was thinking being chased by an Apache through the alps, with me driving a 1965 Mini Cooper S 8) That would be Fantastic.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 9, 2004)

> hot poker up the asshole would suit you to the ground



oh but if we do it my way we could say you died like you lived, with something long and hard up ur ass................


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 9, 2004)

I would laugh, but i can kinda see that you set yourself up to say that so its not funny...


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## plan_D (Oct 9, 2004)

The Apache wouldn't really need to chase you unless you're refering to the A-36.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 9, 2004)

Nope. I want it to chase me, like with the Lotus on Top Gear. That looked fun...


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## Anonymous (Nov 23, 2004)

NO!

In fact the Me262 hurt Germany's chances in WWII!

German industry was incapable of producing the engines for the Me262. The Hitler ordered the 262 to be a bomber argument having delayed the 262 is a known falsehood. This at most reduced the number of operational 262's by a hundred planes. In all of the war, about 2500 Me262 aiframes were built, but less than 400 saw combat. The reason was the engines.

Germany could build workable jet engines in one's and twos, but when it came to trying to mass produce them they just could not do it. Average service life of a 262 engine was about 5 hours, including initial testing and proving, leaving a flight or two in the plane before it needed new engines. The most hours I've seen on any 262 airframe is about 20, and there is no record how many engines it went through. Most show less than 10 hours.

Germany should have focused it's efforts on producing lots of FW190 Dora9's, not fantasizing about a jet that was beyond its industrial capability. 5000 Dora9's a year earlier, rather than the less than 1000 that were actually produced, would have made a meaningful difference. 200 more Me262's, about the best the German's could have done, would not. The 262 was a waste of German industrial capacity and resources.

=S=

Lunatic


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 23, 2004)

I totally disagree...the 262 was a fine plane that was being ruined by Hitler.


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## Anonymous (Nov 24, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> I totally disagree...the 262 was a fine plane that was being ruined by Hitler.





> For a time historians believed that Adolf Hitler's order to build the Me 262 solely as a bomber delayed its introduction into combat as a fighter interceptor. This is not the case. Rather jet engine development proved lengthy and difficult. Hitler's order did divert some 30 percent of production airframes to the Me 262A-2a Sturmvogel (Stormbird) bomber type.
> ...
> Although 1,443 Me 262s were completed, it is estimated that only about 300 saw combat.
> ...
> http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/me262.htm



So Hitler's meddlings maybe meant about 100 fewer 262A's in WWII. Not significant.

I suggest you spend a few hours reading through the entries in the *Werk Nummer Resource Center Database* at:

http://www.stormbirds.com/werknummer/

before you make a conclusion. Look at how few of them ever saw combat, how few actually flew, how few flight hours and how frequently the engines went bad for those that did actually get into the air.

Germany had fine designers, but their industry lacked the level of automation necessary to build something as precise as a workable jet engine in quantity. Germany, like Britian and indeed the rest of the world except the USA, still utilized a "shaper" based machine industry, where an highly skilled individual hand crafted such parts. This made mass production of turbines very difficult, as even the smallest variance would prevent an engine from having any durability. Germany was unable to make a reliable Turbo-charger unit during WWII for the same reason.

I'm not saying the 262 was not a fine design. I'm saying it, like many of the German super weapons, ate up too much of the engineering talent and industrial capacity for too little effective returns.

Do you disagree that 4 or 5 thousand more late model FW's would not have been better than 300 Me-262's for Germany's situtation in mid-late 1944? This is what the 262 cost them, perhaps more.

=S=

Lunatic


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 24, 2004)

I agree that more 190's would have been better, but you cannot say the 262 didnt play its part in the war. Also in the long run, if it wasnt for the 262 then I dont think a lot of the modern jets we have today would even exist.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 24, 2004)

the germans had lost the war on the ground, by 1944 nothing was gonna save it for them...............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 24, 2004)

Except maybe an American A-bomb accident that wipes out America, Russia and th UK leaving only mainland Europ and Africa. The ol' Frenchies would have their work cut out then


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## Anonymous (Nov 24, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> I agree that more 190's would have been better, but you cannot say the 262 didnt play its part in the war. Also in the long run, if it wasnt for the 262 then I dont think a lot of the modern jets we have today would even exist.



Well, the move to Jet power was underway, I'm not sure the 262 was the big influence, but certainly German efforts were a big impetus. I think that FW 1111 (or whatever it was) really had more influence, as it was the influence for the Mig-15.

I am saying the 262 played its part in WWII. It hurt Germany! Any time a country takes its eyes off reality and devotes so much resources to wonder weapons that they cannot produce enough servicable weapons, it is making a blunder.

The Me-262 should have stayed in the experimental and testing stage another 2-3 years, while German industry developed the base technology to mass produce jet engines that worked. I figure each Me-262 airframe laid down represents at least two FW190 or three Bf109 aiframes that did not get built. Of the 2500 Me262 airframes laid down, 1500 or so were actually completed and about 300 actually saw combat service. This is not a wise utilization of scarce resources. Not only that, but engineering talent spent on the 262 could have been used to improve other German fighters and bombers.

=S=

Lunatic


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 25, 2004)

Actually youve got a pretty good point on this, I duly oblige to agree with you 8)


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## Anonymous (Nov 26, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> Actually youve got a pretty good point on this, I duly oblige to agree with you 8)



I just want you to consider it m8. The same can be said for most of the V weapons. The truth is that all the German V weapons did little for their chances in the war. Only had their nuclear bomb program bore fruit before that of the USA (and Germany was not even close to being able to make a true fission weapon) would have made a difference. It is speculated that Germany might have used dirty bombs carried by V2's, but I think if they had then Britain would have used nerve gas, and Europe would have been one big graveyard, and neither side would have won, but Germany would have suffered worse (there'd probably be no Germans left).

While Germany was building stupid weapons like the V2 rocket, the USA (with a big boost from early British radar research) developed and deployed the VT proximity fuse. Had the Germans had a comparable proximity fuse I think it would have made more difference than all the V weapons and King Tigers and Me262's put together - the Allied Bombing offensive would have been over in a couple of months.

=S=

Lunatic


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

> FW 1111



Dont you mean the Messerschmitt P.1101?


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## Anonymous (Nov 26, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> > FW 1111
> 
> 
> 
> Dont you mean the Messerschmitt P.1101?



I got the numbers confused with the Me, been a long time since I looked at these hypothetical Luftwaffe' jets.

No I really meant the FW183:



> http://www.luft46.com/fw/ta183-i.html
> http://www.luft46.com/



Which to me looks an awful lot like the mig 15:






=S=

Lunatic


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

So does the P.1101 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 27, 2004)

no it doesn't...............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

It does...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 27, 2004)

doesn't..............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

Does - that one doesnt have complet body panels.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 28, 2004)

i'm fully aware of that, i realise the engine would be covered, but it still doesn't.............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 28, 2004)

Why doesnt it look like it.


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## Anonymous (Nov 28, 2004)

Flight line is different. Tail is of traditional layout.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 29, 2004)

Both planes bear a resemblance though, thats clear.


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## Amish Eskimo Ninja (Nov 29, 2004)

does anyone here know how many total kills 262's got. I need it for a history project. Tell me the source you got it from too please. It would be a huge help if anyone does.


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## Anonymous (Nov 30, 2004)

Amish Eskimo Ninja said:


> does anyone here know how many total kills 262's got. I need it for a history project. Tell me the source you got it from too please. It would be a huge help if anyone does.



I don't think I've seen a figure like that. However, the following page shows all 262 Aces, and represents the lions share of 262 kills, searching through the site may yeild more info.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/dusen.html

The Werk Number database entires might also yeild figures, and you might contact the archivists and ask them, they might know the total kills for the 262 (If anyone would, I'd think it'd be them):

http://www.stormbirds.com/werknummer/

Here are some more links to help you, I've not read every page of every site so maybe you will find the info if you are looking for it:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~fiveds/ananian.html
http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/M/Messerschmitt-Me-262.htm
http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/AC/aircraft/Messerschmitt-Me262/me262_info/m262_info.htm
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/me262.htm
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/me262.html
http://www.cebudanderson.com/262.htm

Sorry I cannot find an exact figure for you.

Good luck,

=S=

Lunatic


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 30, 2004)

That's quite a selection. Thanks, Lunatic.


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## Anonymous (Nov 30, 2004)

Nonskimmer said:


> That's quite a selection. Thanks, Lunatic.



YW. I'd contact the author's of the first two links and ask them for the figures you want. Very good chance they know the answer w/o looking it up if this data is in fact known.

Unfortunately, more than half the 262 links I've saved over the years are now dead.

 


Lunatic


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 30, 2004)

RG_Lunatic said:


> No I really meant the FW183:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's right. 
To my knowledge, none of the Ta 183 prototypes actually took to the air, until by the Soviets well after war's end.
It was only then that the design flaws of the airframe were discovered and rectified (lowering of the tailplanes, wing fences added, etc.), and the VK-1 engine of the Mig-15 was little more than a "Russianized" British Rolls-Royce.


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## Anonymous (Nov 30, 2004)

Nonskimmer said:


> That's right.
> To my knowledge, none of the Ta 183 prototypes actually took to the air, until by the Soviets well after war's end.
> It was only then that the design flaws of the airframe were discovered and rectified (lowering of the tailplanes, wing fences added, etc.), and the VK-1 engine of the Mig-15 was little more than a "Russianized" British Rolls-Royce.



The Mig-15 was seriously flawed anyway. It rolled poorly at speed and it could not break the bottom of the transonic mach region even in a dive.


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 30, 2004)

True enough.


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## Karaya_1 (Dec 1, 2004)

Hi, I just discovered this great board….the Me 262 is my favourite a/c for over 20 years now and so I would like to add some things to your interesting discussion.

1.	The first jet plane was the Heinkel He 178 (first flight 27. August 1939)
2.	The Me 262 was a great interceptor, but not suited for dogfights. It’s turn radius was much too small to come up with a P-51 or Spitfire. (Try it on the very realistic Il-2 flight simulator and you will see)
3.	Forget about the old rumor about Hitler and his blame about the delay of the 262 getting into service. Even if each one build had entered service as a fighter, it would have changed nothing. The problem of the 262 was the jet engine…..there were not enough reliable engines before mid-1944, so nothing different would have happened. They might have hampered the allied bombing runs but I won’t think of the results and an A-Bomb over Berlin….
4.	The Me 262 was a total flop as a fighter-bomber, they had no bombsight for that kind of speed and so they dropped their bombs anywhere, but not on the target (like the Brits did by night,hehehe….sorry for that joking..).
5.	The Heinkel He 280 was a great plane, but it was developed to use Heinkel’s own He-S jet engines and it had to be modified for the Jumo or BMW and the He-S was to weak to compare with the Me 262 and it’s Jumo’s.
6.	Another question from this poll : EJG means Ergänzungsjagdgeschwader (supplement fighter squadron)

So the Me 262 would have never won the war for us (yes, I am a little bit patriotic )), because of the engine problem. It might have delayed the war a bit, but I don’t think it would have stopped the allies.
I hope I could help you a little bit and if you have question about some german wording I would like to help you !

Greetings from Bavaria !

Michael


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 1, 2004)

Bavaria!  
I _love_ Bavarian beer!  

Ahem!...Sorry, back on topic.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 1, 2004)

some very good and interesting points there Kar (can we call you that??)

welcome to the site, i hope you stick around...............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 1, 2004)

Karaya_1 said:


> Hi, I just discovered this great board….the Me 262 is my favourite a/c for over 20 years now and so I would like to add some things to your interesting discussion.
> 
> 1.	The first jet plane was the Heinkel He 178 (first flight 27. August 1939)
> 2.	The Me 262 was a great interceptor, but not suited for dogfights. It’s turn radius was much too small to come up with a P-51 or Spitfire. (Try it on the very realistic Il-2 flight simulator and you will see)
> ...



An epic first post there, Hello and welcome 8)

If the He-178 was the first jet to fly how com it didnt see service? Cos if it was around in the BoB I reckon we'd have been trounced 8)


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 1, 2004)

Simply a prototype, 'twas the same for the E.28 Pioneer...


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## Karaya_1 (Dec 2, 2004)

Hi,
yes, that's true, it was just a test bed for the new Heinkel jet engine developed by Hans Joachim Pabst von Ohain. It was never planned to be used as a fighter.

Michael


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 2, 2004)

Ah...shame


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## ricker79 (Dec 3, 2004)

had hitler not stopped all special weapons projects for 28 months in the late 30's we would all be speaking german and goose stepping. 
an me -262 in mid 1941 instead of late 1943 would also have meant an Horten Ho-18 Amerika Bomber, the V2-A10 (the german ICBM), AtoA and SAM's used en masse', and many more wonderously horrible weapons by '44. this would have led to success in afrika which would have provided germany will all the uranium and plutonium they could ever hope for. i urge everyone to go to luft 46.com. some of the stuff the germans were a year away from was almost martian in appearance and freakishly high tech.
an interesting side note: when boeing was looking for ideas for the stealth bomber they came across files and blueprints on the Ho-18. the files read that on a version equipped with piston engines it was undetectable on radar of the time. the germans would have had a bomber that could reach new york and siberia without ever being detected. the Ho-18 and the B-2 bomber are almost identical.

so in summary the me-262 would not have won the war alone, but the horrors that would have followed it a year later would have.
[http://www.stormbirds.com/project/
][he who paints the sky green and the grass blue, should be made steril.-Adolf Hitler][/quote][/url]


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 3, 2004)

Yeah, Luft '46 is an interesting site!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 3, 2004)

> Cos if it was around in the BoB I reckon we'd have been trounced



CC think of it this way, it's range would have been even worse than the Bf-109....................


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## Anonymous (Dec 3, 2004)

It would have made no difference if Hitler had not delayed the jet program. German industry still would not have been able to mass produce the jet engines.

The special weapons programs were all based upon maximizing the final technical development. But the technical capability of a nation is a pyramid, the point can only be a certain hight based upon the width of the base. The German base was limited, so while they could produce some impressive weapons at the very point, they were unable to mass produce them. For that you have to go down to a wider point lower on the pyramid.

Germany needed a wider base to their industrial machine if they were going to produce things like jet engines in sufficient quantity to effect the war, and widening the base takes years (10+). With the level of tooling they had, they just could not do it.

=S=

Lunatic


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 3, 2004)

But if it could at least make it there it could take out a few planes, making it easier for the 109's...itd be a huge waste of planes and pilots but it might have worked.


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## Anonymous (Dec 3, 2004)

What, in 1941 or even 1942? They simply could not produce combat worthy jet engines until 1944. If they'd have sent jets over Britian for the BoB, they'd have been staying in Britain. The german jet engines were never reliable, but until about the end of 1943, they were hardly airworthy.

What Germany needed for the BoB was the A6M2 Zero!


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 3, 2004)

RG_Lunatic said:


> What Germany needed for the BoB was the A6M2 Zero!



Saburo Sakai would certainly have agreed with you.  
It's range was many times that of any Messerschmitt, thus greatly increasing the potential loitering time over British targets.

Not to mention it's low speed agility, should the Luftwaffe pilots have exploited it.


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## Anonymous (Dec 4, 2004)

Nonskimmer said:


> RG_Lunatic said:
> 
> 
> > What Germany needed for the BoB was the A6M2 Zero!
> ...



It was sufficient to beat the BoB Spitfire. It had almost identical armament to the Bf-109E4, with range exceeding that of the P-51. Thus I believe that had Germany had the A6M2 Zero instead of the Bf-109 in 1940 and 41, they'd likely have won the BoB.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

Good point, I agree. 


Im thinking of making a poll about the BoB to see which was the most effective plane. Should I do just British planes, Just German planes or all of them together?


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 4, 2004)

Why not all of them? It'd be interesting!


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

Ok guv' 

Lunchtime now, I'll do it this afternoon 8)


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 4, 2004)

Cool. 8)


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

Ok, so far I got:

Supermarine Spitfire
Hawker Hurricane
Messerschmitt Bf-109
Dornier Do-17
Bolton-Paul Defiant
Heinkel He-111
Messerschmitt Me-110
Junkers Ju-87
~Junkers Ju-88
~Bristol Beaufighter 

I think thats covers them all doesnt it?


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 4, 2004)

Were there no Ju-88s in the BoB?


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

Knew id forgotten somthing!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 4, 2004)

> Thus I believe that had Germany had the A6M2 Zero instead of the Bf-109 in 1940 and 41, they'd likely have won the BoB.



i'm not sure, they would have won it anyway if Hitler hadn't ordered the atacks on london..................


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 4, 2004)

you missed the beaufighter...............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

Ok...


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## Karaya_1 (Dec 6, 2004)

Always the old rumor.....there were NO reliable jet engines in the early 40's so forget the old dreams of jets before 1944...
And the Zero was a good fighter, but also a good lighter (hey, what a poem !), so every hit by a Spitfire or a Hurricane would have been the end of it....


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## Anonymous (Dec 6, 2004)

Karaya_1 said:


> Always the old rumor.....there were NO reliable jet engines in the early 40's so forget the old dreams of jets before 1944...
> And the Zero was a good fighter, but also a good lighter (hey, what a poem !), so every hit by a Spitfire or a Hurricane would have been the end of it....



Early Spitfires were not particularly durable either. When early Spitfire's met the Zero in the Pacific theater, the Spitfires died.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 6, 2004)

Hurricanes on the other hand...tough as old boots 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 6, 2004)

easy to repair as well.............


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 6, 2004)

Yup 8)


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## delcyros (Mar 2, 2005)

I´m new here, great site!
And what a poll!

I voted for "no". And I would suggest to say "no way". Why? Well, It could have prolonged the war, IF it would have been fielded in numbers in erly 1944, prior to the allies oil bombing campaigns. It wasn´t.
And it could NEVER have such a big impact to the battles with russian forces, or their airforces because they did not use heavy bombers for strategic bombing. The Me-262 was perhaps the best interceptor, maybe. it never was kind of an air-superiority-fighter.


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## Udet (Mar 2, 2005)

Come guys, are there any wizards around?

None of us can tell for sure whether the Me 262 could have turned the odds of the war in favor of Germany had it been deployed in significant numbers, say, by the beginning of 1944.

Let´s think Hitler and some of those bureacrats of the Reich did not order ludicruous requirements such as making a dive bomber out of the Me 262 and that they did not obstruct developing of new projects at the early stages of the war and the Luftwaffe has a fleet of 500 operational jets in service as of January 1st, 1944.

Losses of heavy bombers were high for the USAAF throughout 1944. The jets entered service in limited numbers and kind of too late, still they proved their worth.

(i) 500 operational jets in early 1944 could have certainly contributed to an even higher casualty rate in the USAAF, diminishing the amount of damage to German industry and communication networks: more tanks, artillery and aircraft are therefore produced.

(ii) Even more escort fighters are required to protect the bomber boxes, perhaps diminishing to some degree the free sweeps of fighter-bombers harrasing movement of German ground forces. The armament produced in accordance with point (i) reaches front lines faster and in far better shape.

(iii) Do not forget the USA, despite its large population, was not the USSR. The government of the USA did not have, at all, the contempt and scorn for human life as it was with the bolsheviks. Losses were high for the USAAF; an even higher loss rate would have brought consequences hard to assess in the USA.

(iv) Protracting the war for a reasonable period of time (what is reasonable? 1 and a half year?) plays in favor of Germany. Protracting the war means Germany continues to be capable of waging a war and that the enemy armies are still perhaps reasonably far from its borders. Who knows...perhaps London continues to receive rains of V-2s.

The Me262 by itself could perhaps not win the war; it is even ridiculous to think of such an option. But the indirect effect of a far more significant deployment of the jets at the right phase of the war, who knows, could have brought consequences of relevant magnitude, and the outcome of the final battle should be one withheld.


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## Anonymous (Mar 2, 2005)

But again, the proposition that it might somehow have been deployed in signficant numbers starting at the beginning of 1944 is the real issue. It could not be, Germany couldn't build the engines!

And, had they been able to do so, that implies almost every other aspect of their war industry would have been able to produce more too.

Being realistic, lets be generous and suppose Germany had been able to field 400 Me262's by mid 1944, and a total of 1000 by the end of the war. Would it have prolonged the war - I doubt it! If it had, it would only have amounted to a month or two.

=S=

Lunatic


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## reddragon (Mar 2, 2005)

I believe if it had been used as a fighter from the beginning as intended, it may have brought an end to daylight bombing, but I don't think it would have won the war for the Axis. Russia was bleeding the Germans very badly by the time it was introduced.


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## Anonymous (Mar 2, 2005)

reddragon said:


> I believe if it had been used as a fighter from the beginning as intended, it may have brought an end to daylight bombing, but I don't think it would have won the war for the Axis. Russia was bleeding the Germans very badly by the time it was introduced.



It's been shown that even had all the 262's been used as fighters, it would have made only a minimal increase in the number of 262's available for anti-bomber work - perhaps something like 60-80 over the course of the war, and the only real change would have been when they got to combat, a difference of a few months. The whole "Hitler screwed up the 262 by trying to make it a bomber" argument has been largely debunked. Messershmitt largely ignored the request for bomber versions anyway, only delievering a small quantity, most of which were later converted back to fighter versions.

Less than 400 Me262's were operational during the war - that includes the bomber versions. That was the extent of Germany's ability to manufacture the engines, and many of those units flew very few sorties. Typical engine life was well under 10 hours (I'd bet 4 hours would be generous), including ground and flight testing.

=S=

Lunatic


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## mosquitoman (Mar 2, 2005)

Great plane as the Me262 was, it could never win the war unless the Germans had also developed a nuke, slung it underneath a 262, an Ar234 or a He177 and delivered it to London


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## Anonymous (Mar 2, 2005)

If they'd have done that Germany would have been a wasteland within a week - the British would have retaliated with gas and anthrax.

=S=

Lunatic


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## mosquitoman (Mar 2, 2005)

Good point, hadn't thought about that


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## Udet (Mar 2, 2005)

RG_Lunatic:

You ought to double check your comments.

"It's been shown that even had all the 262's been used as fighters, it would have made only a minimal increase in the number of 262's available for anti-bomber work - perhaps something like 60-80 over the course of the war, and..."

What does that have to do with anything?

I´ve said here, that even with the small numbers of jets which saw service the worth of the machine was proved. Are you going to dispute this?

No one has ever suggested that if the whole Me262s produced during the war had been deployed in the fighter role exclusively, the outcome of the war could have bee different, nobody has. Remember? Too little too late!

Many of the dreaded P-51s went down in flames against the jet.


That the Me262 got delayed because Hitler wanted it to be a bomber is real, but no the definitive reason to not have a large fleet of jets. The fundamental cause for the delay of the massive production of the jet was the order to either postpone or cancel many projects that would not reach immediate service in the early stages of the war.

The point is, had the fool bureaucrats in Germany not obstructed the Me262 in the many ways they did, the Luftwaffe INDEED could have had a fleet of some hundreds of operational jets during the first half of 1944.

That the jet by itself could have changed the course of the war is another issue; yet, the answer for that is a flat NO. I digress, to even think of such possibility is silly.

The P-51 by itself did not alter the course of the war. It was rather the combination of the usage of the Mustang with many other planes that helped achieving final victory.

Exactly the same applies for every fighter, bomber, tank or weapon which saw service during the war: no weapon helped changing the course of the war all by itself, without the aid of other weapons.

Getting back on topic i stick to my comments: had they had a fleet of 400-500 operational jets by early 1944, the outcome of the war is a withheld one.


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## KraziKanuK (Mar 2, 2005)

Udet, 
as Lune said the Hitler's order to make the 262 a bomber did not hold back the a/c. Messerschmitt was all ready looking at attaching bomb racks to the a/c before Hitler's order.

When Goering told Willey that Hitler wanted bombs on the 262, Willey replied that 'we have always provided for 2 bomb racks' When asked how long to add, Willey replied '2 weeks'. The only thing to be done was add fairings to the racks. This was on Nov. 2 1943.


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## Anonymous (Mar 2, 2005)

Udet,

Hitler first inspected the Me262 on the 26th of November 1943. That was the date of his infamous request to have a bomber version produced. However, his request was largely ingored, Messershmitt choosing to go ahead with the focus on fighter version production. On May 23, 1944, at Berchtesgaden when Hitler inquired as to how many bomber versions of the 262 had been produced, the answer was "None". There is no evidence that the Jabo verision significantly delayed the introduction of the Me262 or caused a signifcant reduction in the number of available planes.

As for the choice to divert resources earlier delaying the introduction of the 262, I've not seen any evidence of this either. The plane just took a long time to develop, mostly because producing engines for it was at the fringe of German manufacturing capability. Making it a much higher priority would probably have hastened its availabity by at most a few months.

And besides, what's your problem with my figures? 400 Me262's in 1944 and another 600 in 1945 is more than triple actual deployment figures. I think this is extremely generous - there is no evidence that no matter what Germany did they were ever going to be able to produce that number of working jet engines.

What effect more jets would have had is anyones guess. I'm sure it would have lead to more bomber losses, but in the end I think the 262's would still have been shot down (mostly while taking off or landing) and quite likely attacks against airfields would have been even more intense. 262's could not take off from dirt fields like the prop fighters hidden in the woods.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Anonymous (Mar 2, 2005)

KraziKanuK said:


> Udet,
> as Lune said the Hitler's order to make the 262 a bomber did not hold back the a/c. Messerschmitt was all ready looking at attaching bomb racks to the a/c before Hitler's order.
> 
> When Goering told Willey that Hitler wanted bombs on the 262, Willey replied that 'we have always provided for 2 bomb racks' When asked how long to add, Willey replied '2 weeks'. The only thing to be done was add fairings to the racks. This was on Nov. 2 1943.



This is not true. The V10 Jabo version required significant reworking of the structure to support the two bombs.

=S=

Lunatic


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## KraziKanuK (Mar 2, 2005)

There was 1433 Me262s produced to April 19 1945 of which 497 were total losses for one reason or another. During Jan, Feb, Mar 1945, a total of 764 were produced.

1944 production was 568 and 1945 production was 865.

A total of 7916 Jumo 004B were built by Junkers Flugzeugwerke plus an unknown number of engines at Opel. There was also the 004D which began production shortly before the was ended.

.........

That was the conversation. Willey did like to _stretch_ it a bit.


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## Erich (Mar 3, 2005)

the only way the Me 262 could have had a slight overall effect is a big what if. In 1943 had it been on hand for the start of the US heavy bombing campaign and the night fighter version ready for the RAF night bombing operations. True the Allies probably wopuld have pushed their own jet program to the max to deal with the German threat and then who knows really what the German designs on the borad would have become. In the 40's all jet engines were dogs, the problem with altitidue, turbines and the lack of associated fuel tanks gave limited useage to an otherwise deadly fighter interceptor. In 45 the new 262 was to be ready esepcially in reagrds to night fighting when the outside external fuel tanks were done away with and enclosed fuel cells on either side of the cockpit were to be borne.................yuk


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## Anonymous (Mar 3, 2005)

KraziKanuK said:


> There was 1433 Me262s produced to April 19 1945 of which 497 were total losses for one reason or another. During Jan, Feb, Mar 1945, a total of 764 were produced.
> 
> 1944 production was 568 and 1945 production was 865.
> 
> ...



There's pretty good evidence that something around 1550 Me262 airframes were completed to the point of recieving a werknumber (this does not mean they were finished). However, only about 300 ever saw combat operations. The reason? Engines. Indeed thousands of engines were built, but the majority of them failed on initial test. The majority of those which passed initial test failed before ever getting a plane off the ground. 

The Average flight life of an engine that did make it into the air was only a couple of hours. To service those 300 planes, far more than 600 engines were required. Don't believe me? Look for yourself:

http://www.stormbirds.com/werknummer/

Hunt through the database and you will see the number of hours on each plane - and often that required several sets of engines!

=S=

Lunatic


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## Anonymous (Mar 3, 2005)

Erich said:


> the only way the Me 262 could have had a slight overall effect is a big what if. In 1943 had it been on hand for the start of the US heavy bombing campaign and the night fighter version ready for the RAF night bombing operations. True the Allies probably wopuld have pushed their own jet program to the max to deal with the German threat and then who knows really what the German designs on the borad would have become. In the 40's all jet engines were dogs, the problem with altitidue, turbines and the lack of associated fuel tanks gave limited useage to an otherwise deadly fighter interceptor. In 45 the new 262 was to be ready esepcially in reagrds to night fighting when the outside external fuel tanks were done away with and enclosed fuel cells on either side of the cockpit were to be borne.................yuk



I really think the evidence is very strong that any introduction date before about March 1944 is pure fantasy.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Udet (Mar 4, 2005)

For Lucifer´s sake RG!!

Didn´t you read my comments?

I DID say Hitler´s indeed ludicrous orders to make a bomber out of the Me 262 were real but NOT by any means the definitive cause for delaying the mass production of the jet!!

It was way before Hitler´s first inspection on the jet when an order to POSTPONE for undetermined period of time any and/or all those projects for weapons that would not reach service within a very short period of time.

This decision proved FATAL. A mistake of the German high command, period!

Had such order not been issued (and enforced) the Germans could have had a longer period time to make many necessary adjustments to the engines for the Me262.

You do think jets in significant numbers in service about early 1944 is fantasy?

I agree with you the systems for mass production of weapons were more efficient in the USA than in most countries of europe, Germany included of course. Still, I think you make a mistake since it would appear to me you totally underestimate the production capabilities of the Reich.

I could tell you the production figures of the Reich are very likely to prove you wrong.

Germany had shortages of some essential materials but they were never that significant to disrupt the armament industry of the Reich. The sole item that was lacking like hell, a very essential one, was precisely FUEL.

From my conversations with veterans I´ve learned that when Germany finally surrendered, the Luftwaffe had plenty of new fighters (Bf109s and Fw190s) ready to enter service. They simply lacked the time (and the fuel) to send them on for service.

I stick to my original post: had the Reich had a far more consistent planning and coordination policies with all designers they could have had a fleet of a few hundreds of operational jets ready to welcome the 8th air force when 1944 was starting.

In case you did not get it: the jets by themselves could not have won the war. Simple.

All that, and the direct and indirect effects of the deployment of jets in signficant numbers would have played in favor of Germany only.


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## Anonymous (Mar 4, 2005)

I did read your comments Udet.

But I disagree. It would not have mattered much had the German's not "postponed" jet development, which as far as I can see there is little evidence to support having happened. Production was delayed perhaps a little, but not much - Messershmitt had a tendancy not to listen to such "orders". Research and development continued.

Quantity figures are a totally different issue than production capability. Germany didn't have the capability to produce reliable jet engines, pure and simple. It would not have mattered if they'd tried to produce them earlier in the war - they would have had even less success. Producing more malfunctioning engines earlier would not have helped them much.

Doesn't the fact that nearly 8,000 jet engines were produced but less than 400 combat jets ever saw service, mostly due to a shortage of working engines, make the issue clear? They simply could not mass produce the engines! About 10-20% of the engines produced were useable (to varying degrees), and these were pretty much assembled in the lab, not on the production floor.

It would have made a few months difference, thus my date of March 1944, rather than May-June 1944.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Chocks away! (Mar 5, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> not a chanse. it takes a truly great plane like the spitfire, hurricane or bf-109 to win a war, not a plane like the me-262, i mean, if it was such a great plane as many people are making out, it would have changed the corse of the war in the very short time it had to show itself


 I reckon the me 262 to be as historicaly important as the ones you mentioned. It was a great plane, it was simply a case of too little too late for the luftwafe when it became operational.


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## hellmaker (Mar 23, 2005)

The jet age was at the beginning...no one knew what a jet would be capable of..


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 23, 2005)

but it is only a great in the sence it was a first, it was not a great in the same sence as the spit or -109.........


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## delcyros (Mar 25, 2005)

I completely agree with that, Lanc. Deployment in numbers are very important, too. The big plus of the Me-262 was more kind of pioneering than anything else (even at the very day with the most day interception sorties flown by Me-262 in the war, on 7th of april 1945 they did managed to support 57 sorties, only).


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## HealzDevo (May 24, 2005)

I think potentially no, not by itself, but it could have bought the Germans time to put in the frontline more advanced designs such as the P-80, so I have said yes. It really was too advanced, and was a first generation jet plane to make more advanced prototypes available for service. The Me-163 Comet was the same, I said yes, for what it could become under potential future development.


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## cheddar cheese (May 24, 2005)

The Komet was a great plane, let down only by its engine and fuel. Apparently it has the best flight characteristics of any Luftwaffe plane.


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## Howl (Feb 4, 2006)

Me-262 was dead meat. The F-80 shooting star was faster and could fly higher. Lockheed had already retooled all their p-38 factories for the F-80, and 2 had already been sent to France, and 2 to Italy by the time the allies first encountered the Me-262. Mass production was starting and they would have been sent to the front lines.


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## me262 (Feb 5, 2006)

...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 5, 2006)

Howl said:


> Me-262 was dead meat. The F-80 shooting star was faster and could fly higher. Lockheed had already retooled all their p-38 factories for the F-80, and 2 had already been sent to France, and 2 to Italy by the time the allies first encountered the Me-262. Mass production was starting and they would have been sent to the front lines.



Actually 2 were not sent to France they were sent to England and 2 were sent to Italy and they never saw combat. They flew patrols over Italy behind enemy lines.

Are you absolutely sure that the P-80 would have outlfown a Me-262. Flying higher and the little bit of speed advantage is not everything in a dog fight.

Unless there was a fight between the Me-262 and the P-80, you cant really say that.


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