# Would WWII Australian public opinion be affected by a Japanese commando attack?



## Freebird (Jan 25, 2008)

Here is something I was wondering about, what would the effect been on Australian public opinion government policy in WWII if the Japanese had made some actual ground attacks on Australia, (or Canada or the USA), in the form of commando raids?

Suppose for example that the Japanese had set up a few small "tramp" freighters as commando ships. They would transport on the foredeck a few small pleasure or fishing boats. (eg. 50' - 60' long) They would have Dutch captain officers (German operatives) and Indonesian crew (actually Japanese commandos) 

At the time there was limited patrol in Australian waters, so by avoiding common shipping routes they could approach coastal areas at night probably undetected. In the unlikely event that they are approached they would have fake papers showing that they are a Dutch Indonesian ship evacuating some boats other cargo from the growing tension in the East. A Japanese submarine could shadow the freighter, and 9posing as a U-boat) attack any HMAS cruiser if it was going to search the freighter. The commando ship would also have a few torpedoes 6" guns hidden for defence. (eg like "Kormoran" had against HMAS Sydney)

When the freighter arrives in Australian waters, late at night on the day before "Pearl Harbour" , in some isolated bay the smaller pleasure craft or fishboats would be lowered into the water. Each would carry 30 or 40 commandos, infantry guns, MG's mortars, plus supplies. The smaller boats with 80 - 150 commandos make a landing on a small sparsely populated island near a major port. For example St. Helena island in Moreton bay near Brisbane, formerly a prison but mainly abandoned after 1935. After the Japanese enter the war by attacking Malaya Hawaii, the commandos create the maximum amount of havoc by sinking a few freighters or HMAS ships, shelling the port, nearby city other infrastructure targets. It would be a suicide mission of course, when attacked the commandos would try to take out as many Allied troops as possible. (eg. like Okinawa or Iwo Jima). When the last commandos are finally wiped out, it would be found that their commander had (how very unfortunate!) failed to destroy papers showing the landing areas for a future Japanese invasion of Queensland, NSW N. Australia etc.

I wonder what the effect on public opinion would be? The objective of course would be to cause panic in the Allied countries, forcing them to put troops to garrison coastlines in Australia elsewhere. The Japanese would not really intend to invade, but would hope that this disinformation would cause Australia to waste extra troops guarding their coastal areas.

I was thinking of the story my grandmother told, of the panic created by a Japanese sub shelling a lighthouse on the Canadian West Coast, when there were rumours that the Japanese were going to invade.


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## timshatz (Jan 25, 2008)

I had heard somewhere that the Japanese did drop a platoon of troops up along the north coast for about a week or two. They stayed pretty much in the same spot and then left. Can't remember where I heard it. But my understanding is the northern coast of Australia is so baren and wild in spots that nobody noticed them. 

But if the Japenese did attack an Austrialian city with a suicide commando attack, it would definitely freak the citizens out in a big way. Same in the US or anywhere else. Especially if it was a sneak attack during the start of a war (as apposed to an action in the middle of a war). 

However, I can't imagine it would be particularly effective from a military point of view. What are they after? What is the mission? Spread terror? You can do that by just bombing them and it would have pretty much the same effect. Or just run a cruiser down the coast and shell the city. 

Expensive attack with limited long term results. Better ways to do it.


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## Wildcat (Jan 25, 2008)

Well in 1942 Australians did fear that the Japanese were going to invade the country and the 19th Feb 42 raid on Darwin did cause panic, however due to the Govt. hushing up and down playing the raid, this panic was contained to the people in the Darwin area. 
As for a Commando raid on Brisbane/Moreton Bay area, I'm sure it would cause alarm but probably not panic the population. If anything it would cause the military to review it's defences of key areas and probably bolster its forces in those areas. Most cities and Harbours were defended by Coastal artillery and AA guns (Moreton Is. did have coastal guns defending the approaches to the Bay) plus the Army had several Militia divisions that were purely used in the defence of the main land, particulary the North of Australia so I can't see the Govt. redeploying troops from overseas to fill this role. At the end of the day this is what the Militia was designed for.
Also looking from a historical perspective, the Australian mainland was raided 64 times in varying degress of serverity, sydney Harbour was attacked by midget subs, several suburbs were shelled by Japanese submarines, Japanese recon flights were conducted over several cities in the South of the country and Japanese and German subs did launch an offensive against shipping off the Australian coast. None of this caused wide spread panic amongst the population and achieved very little for the Japanese. (casused headaches for the RAAF though)


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## Arsenal VG-33 (Jan 25, 2008)

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the average Australian was very worried about this. I can remember speaking with a WW 2 vet who was from California, near the coast. Immediately after the Pearl Harbor attack, he described how there was near sheer panic in the US population along the entire west coast. National guard units were called to patrol coastlines, civilians volunteered in whatever capacity they could, frantically planning evacuation routes and stocking on survival provisions. He even witnessed several armed groups of very trigger-nervous/trigger-happy civilians patrolling though their communities and scanning the night sky.

These things were to some extent recreated in Steven Spielberg's silly and comical film "1941", but in the days and weeks following Pearl Harbor, there were a lot of very concerned people, many of them even paranoid about impending Japanese invasion forces.

When reliable news is short but rumors fly quickly, and mixed with a lot of confusion, it can create a very dangerous and fearful situation.


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## Graeme (Jan 26, 2008)

timshatz said:


> But my understanding is the northern coast of Australia is so baren and wild in spots that nobody noticed them.



In 1942 it was very barren and sparsely populated.






As Wildcat pointed out the Darwin raid led to a panic flight of military personnel and civilians into the interior. A number of books have been published on the subject and conclude that it wasn't one of Australia's better moments in the war.

The raid itself, was however, described by Nagumo's biographer, Captain Matsushima Kiezo, as using a "sledgehammer to crack an egg."


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## Freebird (Jan 26, 2008)

timshatz said:


> But if the Japenese did attack an Austrialian city with a suicide commando attack, it would definitely freak the citizens out in a big way. Same in the US or anywhere else. Especially if it was a sneak attack during the start of a war (as apposed to an action in the middle of a war).
> 
> However, I can't imagine it would be particularly effective from a military point of view. What are they after? What is the mission?



The mission is to create some panic, that would force the government to put troops along the coasts, (where the Japanese have no intention of attacking) instead of sending them to N. Guinea or the Solomons or somewhere where they really are needed. Consider that the British commando attacks on Norway led to Hitler sending several divisions there, which couldn't be used elsewhere. By the end of the war the Germans had put something like 200,000 troops in Norway, the British general Brooke remarked that they might as well have been in a POW camp for all the good they were doing.



> You can do that by just bombing them and it would have pretty much the same effect. Or just run a cruiser down the coast and shell the city.
> Expensive attack with limited long term results. Better ways to do it.



A cruiser would be much more vulnerable, and not quite psychologically the same as actual troops. Although an air attack against the Australian coast might have been possible


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## Heinz (Jan 26, 2008)

I believe Menzies our prime Minister was suggesting if the Japanese did invade that our defences be in place at Brisbane and then effectively push them back. 

My grandfather was there when they first bombed Darwin for a trival piece of info.


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## Wildcat (Jan 26, 2008)

freebird said:


> The mission is to create some panic, that would force the government to put troops along the coasts, (where the Japanese have no intention of attacking) instead of sending them to N. Guinea or the Solomons or somewhere where they really are needed.


I can't see the Govt. withdrawing troops from overseas. In WWII Australia basically had two Armies, the 2nd AIF which was a volunteer force to serve overseas and the CMF (Citizen Military Force) also called the Militia which was tasked with the defence of the mainland. A quick browse of the Militia Order of Battle on Dec 7th 1941 came up with the following units:-

Northern Command - HQ Brisbane, Queensland

2nd Reconnaissance Battalion
49th Infantry Battalion Details - Thursday Island
Torres Strait Infantry Company - Thursday Island
101st Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
55th Field Park Company, RAE

1st Motor Brigade
5th, 11th Motor Regiments

7th Infantry Brigade
9th, 15th, 25th, 47th, 61st Infantry Battalions
5th Field Regiment, RAA
7th Field Company, RAE

11th Infantry Brigade
26th, 31st, 42nd, 51st Infantry Battalions
11th Field Regiment, RAA
11th Field Company, RAE

Eastern Command - HQ Sydney, New South Wales

53rd Infantry Battalion - 
Located at Sydney preparing for embarkation to New Guinea

1st Cavalry Division
1st, 16th Machine-Gun Regiments
2nd Armoured Regiment
21st Field Regiment, RAA
102nd Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
1st Field Squadron, RAE

2nd Cavalry Brigade
12th, 24th Light Horse Regiments
15th Motor Regiment

4th Cavalry Brigade
3rd Armoured Regiment
6th Motor Regiment
7th Light Horse Regiment
14th Machine-Gun Regiment

1st Infantry Division
1st, 9th Field Regiments, RAA
103rd Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
1st, 9th Field Companies, RAE
51st Field Park Company, RAE

1st Infantry Brigade
2nd, 13th, 33rd, 41st Infantry Battalions

9th Infantry Brigade
1st, 17th, 18th, 45th Infantry Battalions
The Sydney University Regiment

2nd Infantry Division
21st Reconnaissance Battalion
7th, 14th, 18th Field Regiments, RAA
104th Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
5th, 8th, 14th Field Companies, RAE
52nd Field Park Company, RAE

5th Infantry Brigade
20th, 34th, 54th, 56th Infantry Battalions

8th Infantry Brigade
4th, 30th, 35th Infantry Battalions

14th Infantry Brigade
3rd, 36th, 55th Infantry Battalions

Southern Command - HQ Melbourne, Victoria

39th Infantry Battalion - Located at Darly Camp preparing for New Guinea
22nd Motor Regiment - Brighton Camp, Tasmania - 
Attached 12th Infantry Brigade

2nd Cavalry Division - Victoria
4th Armoured Regiment
17th Machine-Gun Regiment
19th Machine-Gun Regiment - Left for Darwin from Melbourne 14/1/42.
13th Light Horse
22nd Field Regiment, RAA
105th Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
2nd Field Squadron, RAE

3rd Motor Brigade
1st Armoured Car Regiment
4th Light Horse Regiment
20th Motor Regiment
26th Machine-Gun Regiment

3rd Infantry Division - Victoria
8th Reconnaissance Battalion
2nd, 4th, 8th Field Regiments, RAA
106th Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
4th, 10th, 15th Field Companies, RAE
53rd Field Park Company, RAE

4th Infantry Brigade
22nd, 29th, 46th Infantry Battalions

10th Infantry Brigade
24th, 37th, 52nd Infantry Battalions

15th Infantry Brigade
57th/60th, 58th, 59th Infantry Battalions

4th Infantry Division - Victoria
10th, 15th Field Regiments, RAA
107th Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
2nd, 6th Field Companies, RAE
54th Field Park Company, RAE

2nd Infantry Brigade
5th, 6th, 14th, 32nd Infantry Battalions

6th Infantry Brigade
7th, 8th, 23rd/21st, 38th Infantry Battalions

6th Cavalry Brigade - South Australia
3rd, 23rd Reconnaissance Companies
9th Motor Regiment
18th Machine-Gun Regiment

3rd Infantry Brigade - South Australia
(Later in December 1941, 27th and 43rd Battalions to Darwin)
10th, 27th, 43rd, 48th Infantry Battalions
13th Field Regiment, RAA
3rd Field Company, RAE

12th Infantry Brigade - Tasmania
12th/50th, 40th Infantry Battalions
110th Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
6th Field Regiment, RAA
12th Field Company, RAE

Western Command - HQ Perth, Western Australia

10th Reconnaissance Battalion
25th Machine-Gun Regiment
44th Infantry Battalion
109th Anti-Tank Regiment, RAA
56th Field Park Company, RAE

13th Infantry Brigade
11th, 16th, 28th Infantry Battalions
3rd Field Regiment, RAA
13th Field Company, RAE

Military District #7 - Northern Territory

19th Infantry Battalion - Darwin
18th Field Battery, RAA - Darwin

Military District #8 - Rabaul, New Hebrides and New Guinea

49th Infantry Battalion - Port Moresby, Papua
Papuan Infantry Battalion - Port Moresby, Papua
The New Guinea Volunteer Rifles - Rabaul and New Guinea

{source- www.diggerhistory.com}
Several other Militia divisions were also raised later on making more then enough troops to deal with Commando raids IMO. Added to this is the many fixed coastal gun defences and AA and searchlight units scattered around the country.


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## Freebird (Feb 3, 2008)

Heinz said:


> I believe Menzies our prime Minister was suggesting if the Japanese did invade that our defences be in place at Brisbane and then effectively push them back.
> 
> My grandfather was there when they first bombed Darwin for a trival piece of info.



I don't think it would be very effective for the Japanese to invade, they might find out that the Aussies can be a disagreeable bunch, with a nasty temperament, especially when invaded!  {I lived in Queensland for 6 months so i have some idea.}  

The Australians were probably more prepared for war than Canada or the US, but a commando raid would still cause some concerns i think.




Wildcat said:


> I can't see the Govt. withdrawing troops from overseas. *In WWII Australia basically had two Armies*, the 2nd AIF which was a volunteer force to serve overseas and the CMF (Citizen Military Force) also called the Militia which was tasked with the defence of the mainland. A quick browse of the Militia Order of Battle on Dec 7th 1941 came up with the following units:-
> 
> 
> {source- www.diggerhistory.com}
> Several other Militia divisions were also raised later on making more then enough troops to deal with Commando raids IMO. Added to this is the many fixed coastal gun defences and AA and searchlight units scattered around the country.



Thanks for the info Wildcat. Was the RAAF also divided too? Or were the home defence overseas aircraft in the same organization?


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## Wildcat (Feb 4, 2008)

G'day Freebird, the RAAF was one organisation which had some squadrons deployed solely for defensive duties of the mainland and others that were used offensively throughout the Pacific and Europe. Alot of squadrons however rotated between the two, particularly Beaufort sqns which would be used in the ASW role around the Oz coastline before deploying to New Guinea in the bombing/torpedo/patrol role. I believe it was a case of utilising what few resources we had for such a large area with the aircraft/resources available.


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## Emac44 (Feb 4, 2008)

Very interesting scenerio I must admit. Reminded me of the attacks by Australian Commandos in Singapore Harbour. However I would imagine there would have been some initial panic by the Australian Population but not to the degree of a widespread route from coastal areas like Brisbane or Darwin or Townsville or even Cairns. Even though when the suburbs of Sydney had been shelled by Japanese Submarine this still didn't have a desired effect the Japanese would envision it should have. Remember this was the time of losing HMAS Sydney and several other heavy and light cruisers of the Australian Navy. Australia had at the time been involved in World War 2 right from day 1 in September 1939 and the Australian Population had grown accustomed to the events of War. I also have to point out that convoys leaving Australia were only too well aware of submarine and surface vessel contacts and so was the Australian Navy at the time Free. So approaching an unknown or suspicious vessel as your scenerio quotes and with a registar of a Submarine contact on a HMAS Cruisers Sonar would definitely raise some suspicious by the HMAS Cruiser Crews if the crew was alert and well trained even in home waters and you also mentioned the Kormoran that would have been in recent memory in this scenerio. So a freighter popping up some where even in less travelled sea lanes would definitely caused some concerns. For your scenerio to work Free I would imagine that the freighter avoid all contact and I see you have it that the freigther travelled at night to work more effectiviely and to isolated coastal areas. However the Coast of Brisbane isn't isolated even during World War 2 and travelling down the Queensland Coast I would summize the Freighter would have been spotted and an investigation would have occured already long before reaching St Helena Island. The Japanese Submarine would have had more success then the Freighter scenerio in my opinion Free. As for the Bogus Paper work left by the Freighter Commander those would have been evaluated by Military Intelligence for what they were and decided upon with formal investigations taking place on the paper work. How they would be evaluated like your scenerio has a myrid of possiblities


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## Freebird (Feb 11, 2008)

Emac44 said:


> Very interesting scenerio I must admit.



Thanks!  



Emac said:


> Reminded me of the attacks by Australian Commandos in Singapore Harbour. However I would imagine there would have been some initial panic by the Australian Population but not to the degree of a widespread route from coastal areas like Brisbane or Darwin or Townsville or even Cairns.



Emac, the point would be mainly dis-information, if the Aus government thought that they were a serious target, much more material energy would be spent on coastal garrisons defences. The Axis never even came close to matching the British, who excelled in disinformation, like Operations Mincemeat, Bodyguard, Quicksilver Zeppelin. {We were the best at deception probably because we were fighting the war on a shoestring!!}



Emac44 said:


> I also have to point out that convoys leaving Australia were only too well aware of submarine and surface vessel contacts and so was the Australian Navy at the time Free. So approaching an unknown or suspicious vessel as your scenerio quotes and with a registar of a Submarine contact on a HMAS Cruisers Sonar would definitely raise some suspicious by the HMAS Cruiser Crews. So a freighter popping up some where even in less travelled sea lanes would definitely caused some concerns.



Emac Were there regular Maritime patrols of coastal waters by Beauforts or other aircraft in 1941? Or was that only after the Japanese attack?



Wikipedia said:


> Japanese submarines sank 17 ships in Australian waters in 1942 (14 of which were near the Australian coast) *By forcing ships sailing along the east coast to travel in convoy* the Japanese submarines were successful in reducing the efficiency of Australian coastal shipping. This lower efficiency translated into between 7.5% and 22% less tonnage being transported between Australian ports each month
> 
> In 1943 five Japanese submarines sank nine ships and damaged several others. Five of the ships sunk off the Australian east coast were travelling in escorted convoys at the time they were attacked. *The convoy escorts were not successful in detecting any submarines before they launched their attacks or counter-attacking these submarines.*



If the attack took place in early Nov 1941, this would be before the Kormoran incedent. 

Did the convoys in your waters not start AFTER Pearl Harbour?

I wonder how much chance there would be to detect a sub by sonar in peacetime? It seems like they were not all that successful even later in protected convoys.



> The Japanese Submarine would have had more success then the Freighter scenerio in my opinion Free. As for the Bogus Paper work left by the Freighter Commander those would have been evaluated by Military Intelligence for what they were and decided upon with formal investigations taking place on the paper work. How they would be evaluated like your scenerio has a myrid of possiblities



Eemac, would not paperwork be evaluated on the spot? they couldn't really send it back to Sydney while the Merchant waited?

I think you might be right though, Submarine insertation would probably be the best. Again, its only going to be a 50 - 60 man "suicide squad", with mortars, MG's light portable artillery guns. 

Also I think Australia would be the *MOST* prepared for this, an attack on the US or Canadian west coast would have a *FAR Larger* impact, as the people are not expecting a Japanese attack, unlike the Aussies, who had been eying the Japanese Empire with concern for many years.


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## Wildcat (Feb 13, 2008)

freebird said:


> Thanks!
> Emac Were there regular Maritime patrols of coastal waters by Beauforts or other aircraft in 1941? Or was that only after the Japanese attack?


G'day Freebird. The RAAF had been conducting maritime patrols around the Australian coast pretty much from the beginning of WWII, remembering that German surface raiders had been operating in Australian waters from mid 1940. Before Japan entered the war this was carried out by mainly Hudsons , Ansons and Wirraways. 




freebird said:


> If the attack took place in early Nov 1941, this would be before the Kormoran incedent.
> 
> Did the convoys in your waters not start AFTER Pearl Harbour?


Correct, convoys weren't instituted until June 1942. 



freebird said:


> I wonder how much chance there would be to detect a sub by sonar in peacetime? It seems like they were not all that successful even later in protected convoys.


In Nov 41 I believe a sub would have an excellent chance of dropping off commandos onto the coast. Australian ASW efforts were hampered throughout the war because of a lack of adequte ASW equipment, and not enough aircraft and naval ships to patrol such a massive coastline. In Nov 41 it would have been even less effective then in 1943 when the Japanese launched their sub offensive and our anti-sub defences were in full swing.





freebird said:


> I think you might be right though, Submarine insertation would probably be the best.


Agreed



freebird said:


> Also I think Australia would be the *MOST* prepared for this, an attack on the US or Canadian west coast would have a *FAR Larger* impact, as the people are not expecting a Japanese attack, unlike the Aussies, who had been eying the Japanese Empire with concern for many years.


True, Australia had been slowly gearing up for a conflict in the Pacific, with the Government deploying several RAAF squadrons and Army units to Rabual, Port Moresby, Singapore etc. However these units were small, under equipped and generally undertrained, most of our resources were being sent to Europe and North Africa.
If a Commando raid was conducted, taking into consideration the amount of time it would take to deploy forces against it, I believe it would probably be a success. However once the Army was alerted it would only be a matter of time before the raiding party was destroyed. No doubt the RAAF would also be on the hunt for the offending sub aswell. Even if the raid was only moderatly successful and if the sub was sunk, this would be a huge propaganda coup for the Axis nations and if it did not put fear into the Australian public, it would atleast cast doubt and questions onto the Governments handling of home defence which does have the possibility of altering the way the Australian Govt. conducted its war efforts.


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## Soren (Feb 16, 2008)

Give me 75 Brandenburgers, elite soldiers of the Abwehr trained by the FallschirmJägers, GebirgsJägers, Panzergrenadiers, Pioniers, Wehrmacht Luftwaffe to be no less than an excellent SOF.

Lets say the year is 1942, and either a German flying boat (Or Japanese) or a Japanese sub drops off the German SOF's near the Australian coast, close to a major city. 

The German Commandos would need the following equipment;

30 x FG-42's : These will serve as LMGs, combat rifles sniper rifles in the unit, therefore most will be equipped with this weapon. The 4X ZFG 42 scope will be available to all, as-well will 40 round mags.
10 x K98k's (Two with 8X scopes): Sharpshooters 2 x Long range sniperrifles, plus close support by use of rifle grenades.
4 x MG-42's : Primary support MG 
2 x MG-34's with tripod : HMG, excellent for extreme long range fire.
10 x 50mm Mortars : Light artillery support
5 x 81mm Mortars : Medium artillery support
5 x 120mm Mortars : Heavy artillery support
4 x 10.5cm LG.40 recoilless cannons : AT gun (Very effective with HC projectiles), medium artillery support.
4 x 20mm Rheinmetall Solothurn S-18's : Long range anti-personnel rifle AT rifle.
20 x MP-40's : SMG
50 x P-38's : Sidearm

Additional equipment: Lots of plastic explosives, silencers, stick, apple, smoke bundle grenades. Some AT Anti personnel mines. Light long range radios. Lots of rifle grenades. etc etc etc.. I could go on and on... 

A Brandenburg unit equipped like the above could last a very long time in Australia, causing some serious havoc, utilizing guerilla tactics with hit run attacks on towns cities causing panic all round.


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## pbfoot (Feb 16, 2008)

Soren said:


> Give me 75 Brandenburgers, elite soldiers of the Abwehr trained by the FallschirmJägers, GebirgsJägers, Panzergrenadiers, Pioniers, Wehrmacht Luftwaffe to be no less than an excellent SOF.
> 
> Lets say the year is 1942, and either a German flying boat (Or Japanese) or a Japanese sub drops off the German SOF's near the Australian coast, close to a major city.
> 
> ...


And they'd be dead within a month without transport


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## Freebird (Feb 17, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> And they'd be dead within a month without transport



Pb *The whole point for the Axis would be to shock public opinion in the Allied nations*, US, Canada Australia. I just finished reading Eisenhower's book "Crusade in Europe", he writes (working for Marshall) that after Pearl Harbour they took so many requests from West Coast mayors to station a company or battalion of troops in their city because they were so nervous about a Japanese attack. - Enough to use up 300% of the total available US troop strength!

Now imagine that the public is not reading about far-away tropical Hawaii, but about actual Axis attacks on Boston, Seattle, New Orleans, or New York!

Some of the Germans might be removed by sub, otherwise worst-case the wounded would surrender after a few weeks. The Japanese of course would be on a one-way mission, and fight to the death.



Soren said:


> Give me 75 Brandenburgers, elite soldiers of the Abwehr trained by the FallschirmJägers, GebirgsJägers, Panzergrenadiers, Pioniers, Wehrmacht Luftwaffe to be no less than an excellent SOF.
> 
> Lets say the year is 1942, and either a German flying boat (Or Japanese) or a Japanese sub drops off the German SOF's near the Australian coast, close to a major city.
> 
> ...



Soren I would think that the Germans would only supply some tactical advice to the Japanese. *The Brandenburgers would be best employed making simultaneous attacks on the US East coast.*

Soren you posted earlier that the 10.5 cm recoiless gun had a range of about 5 miles (8 km) did the Japanese have anything similar? did the Germans have anything infantry-portable with a range greater than 8 km?

I figured that the best plan would be for the commandos to land the night after the "Pearl Harbour" and seize a small island {wooded if possible} within a few miles of a major city, then shell some ships, port facilities random targets. The advantage would be that an amphibious counter-attack by lightly trained militia would be very costly. The disadvantage is that it might be more difficult to slip away. 

Good candidates would be Hat Island Blake Island in Puget Sound (near Seattle Everett) and Long Island or Thompson Island near Boston, Mass. Both have small wooded islands within a few miles of the port. Also Cat Island, Mississippi, close to Gulfport, it is also in the middle of the ship channel approaching New Orleans.

The West Coast attacks could be done by the Japanese, the East Coast by the Germans.


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## Soren (Feb 17, 2008)

Pbfoot,

I don't think you've got any idea how easy it would be for the German commandos to just take the transport vehicles they'd need. It's endlessly simple really; Stop some native trucks and cars at night and commandeer them out of the natives hands, stealing them, and taking the natives as hostages. The Brandenburgers were experts at covert ops and many spoke fluent english, so they could easily disappear when needed.

Also utilizing guerilla tactics with hit run tactics the German commando unit could keep operating on Australian soil for very very long time. 

Let me construct a hypothetical attack here;

The German commando's land, two days later they set up their artillery 3-4 km outside some Australian city. As night falls they stop and commandeer around 5 native trucks and a few cars, the natives are taken prisoner. Early next morning as the sun rises the German commandos open up with all their artillery bombarding the nearby city. Panic strikes the city, people running everywhere. 

The Australian military is emmidiately alerted and at once sends 20 truckloads of soldiers on their way! The German commandos being experts in guerilla tactics have however already taken this into account and have placed 30 man unit in an ambush position on the road to the city. The trucks appear in the distance the commandos prepare. At 500m the Germans unit's snipers open fire taking out the far forward rear trucks with the 20mm S-18 rifles. The convoy is noew brought to a halt, and emmidiately the German commandos start pouring a rain of machine gun fire on the trucks, which within seconds are completely shreded. The few Australian troops that get out of the trucks alive are targeted and picked off by the German snipers. In the end it's a massacre, there being nothing the Australian troops could've done.

After looting the destroyed Australian convoy the German commando's pack up and leave the area, deploying on the other side of the city whilst keeping track on anything leaving or coming toward the city. Now ofcourse from then on is where it really gets tough but by smart utilization of tactics the commandos can inflict major panic in Australia and inflict some terrific damage to its armed forces.

Freebird,

I see what mean, and yes the Brandenburgers would be best used to infiltrate the US.


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## pbfoot (Feb 17, 2008)

Sorry i forgot they were German and the Aussies didn't have any kryptonite


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## Soren (Feb 17, 2008)

Very constructive Pbfoot, very constructive!


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## Glider (Feb 17, 2008)

I have been a little slow getting to this thread but it is an interesting idea. I don't think that a suicide mission would do much good. It may well cause some damage ad even a minor panic but there is one problem with a suicide mission.
The attackers are dead, the defenders can prove it, the attacks stop and the defenders can claim victory. 
You need something more to be effective, continual small strikes that can cause significant damage, that happen again and again, spread uncertainty. 
Targets should be infrastructure based, water pumping stations, power lines, fuel pipelines, bridges, almost anything that impacts the civilian population. Anything that makes them question their goverment and what they are being told. 

A base preferably on an island about 100 miles from the coast, where troops can rest, train and plan, but is within easy range of being transported by submarine. Four man teams would probably be best and the large Jap subs would be ideal as they could deploy the men in small boats giving them transport and a chance to escape. Attacks would be best spread over the coast forcing the defenders to spread their resources and reducing the risk to the attackers

Anything that involves lots of men and/or heavy weapons is doomed to failure


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## Soren (Feb 17, 2008)

> Anything that involves lots of men and/or heavy weapons is doomed to failure



Hardly. 

Unless severely damaging a city, and causing heavy casualties to the native forces thereby creating panic in the country is failure in your eyes.

If no more surprise attacks are possible, or if the unit is getting close to having its secret location discovered it can be extracted by the KM or Japanese navy. That way there are no dead bad guys to show the press.

If the unit is equipped as I listed then it would be a huge task to take them out.

As long as before they intiate their attack the commandos make sure to establish themselves around the targeted city, placing watch posts at each entry road and a good central hiding and defensive position, they will have a huge advantage. Commandeering cars from natives the night before the attack would be very smart as it will provide a good getaway option.


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## pbfoot (Feb 17, 2008)

Soren said:


> Hardly.
> 
> Unless severely damaging a city, and causing heavy casualties to the native forces thereby creating panic in the country is failure in your eyes.
> 
> ...


I may be incorrct but didn't the Aussies usually historicily hold the upper hand over the Germans and can't see where it would change when fighting on their home turf .


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## Soren (Feb 17, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> I may be incorrct but didn't the Aussies usually historicily hold the upper hand over the Germans and can't see where it would change when fighting on their home turf .



No the Aussies didn't hold anything over the Germans. The Aussie soldiers were very much like British army soldiers.

Sorry for saying it but from the beginning of the war and up until 1943 Germany was training its soldiers allot better than anyone else, the Wehrmacht training program being three times as long as that of any from the US UK.


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## Graeme (Feb 17, 2008)

Soren said:


> Stop some native trucks and cars at night and commandeer them out of the natives hands, stealing them, and taking the natives as hostages.



...and as they drive through the check point a cunning 'native' guard tells the lorry driver "You speak good English!" The driver replies "DANKE!" and the games up! 

(Courtesy of a similar scene from the movie 'The Great Escape')


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## Glider (Feb 17, 2008)

Soren said:


> Hardly.
> 
> Unless severely damaging a city, and causing heavy casualties to the native forces thereby creating panic in the country is failure in your eyes.
> 
> ...



Anything that involves heavy weapons by definition makes it sizable and easily spotted. Looking at what you propose will prove the point.

You propose 75 trained troopsand arm them as follows

4 x 20mm Rheinmetall Solothurn S-18's : Long range anti-personnel rifle AT rifle.
You cannot carry these very far you will need transport at least one car for two guns 2 trucks 4 men
4 x 10.5cm LG.40 recoilless cannons 
One truck each unless you fight where you land and remember you have to carry the ammo. 4 trucks 8 men (2 man crew)
5 x 120mm Mortars : Heavy artillery support
One truck each and a three man crew 5 trucks and 15 men
5 x 81mm Mortars : Medium artillery support
One truck each and a 2 man crew - 5 trucks and 10 men
10 x 50mm Mortars : Light artillery support
One truck for 2 mortars and 2 men 5 trucks and 10 men
2 x MG-34's with tripod : HMG, .
2 man crew per gun - 4 men

So we now have a force that consists of around 20 trucks and the supporting weapons have taken up 50 men. 
Presumably you dont want to try this with only 25 infantry most of whom you have allocated to LMG and Snipers so you will need another 75 for the infantry role.

Do you really think that you can land 150+ people plus tons of heavy equipment and ammo, highjack 20+ trucks and hide for two days without anyone suspecting that anything is wrong.
Then surround a town (note that, a town, not a small hamlet) with your 75 infantry on foot without being spotted.
Plus to cap it all, bombard the town and get away is a fantasy.

Apart from anything else
a) what on earth are you going to land the men and equipment from.
b) Just how much damage do you think 4 x 105RCLs and 5 x 120mm mortars can do to a town
c) Small point, the FJ52 didn't work very well being to light for the full bore ammo
d) Who is going to be left to carry your dead let alone abandoned equipment away?
e) Also note that I said town you said City which is being really ambitious


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## Wildcat (Feb 17, 2008)

Soren said:


> No the Aussies didn't hold anything over the Germans.



Except the stubbern defence of a little known joint called Tobruk. 

Seriously though Soren your plan would work initially, but after the location of the German commandos was established, I don't think they were going to just disappear or head off to the next city (with in Aust in those days would involve a couple days driving). I'm pretty sure the RAAF wouldn't be sitting idle but would be actively on the hunt and after revenge. I'm sure the Australian Army was a little bit more sophisticated then to send out a handful of trucks straight up a road towards the German positions. We had been at war since 1939 so I'm pretty sure our soldiers, Militia or not, knew something of infantry tactics, and whats to stop our guys from laying up an artillery barrage on the Commandos? 
Also what do these commandos eat? once their rations are used up they're not going to be able to reach their sub because a) The Australian forces aren't just going to let them be off on their merry way and b) the sub commander isn't going to risk surfacing his boat in an area that by this time is being actively hunted by the RAAF and RAN.
Seriously your plan has more holes in it then swiss cheese.
I have no doubt that such a raid could have been initially successful, but to think that a hand full of commandos, no matter how elite they were, is going to run riot and spread fear and destruction across several cities spread across a HUGE country , is a tad bit silly. Once their location is disclosed, they are basically trapped until they are hunted down and destroyed.


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## Soren (Feb 17, 2008)

Glider,

Seriously no offense meant but do you have any idea how small the equipment I proposed is ?? I have a feeling you don't.

I very much agree that heavy weaponry isn't a good idea, I know how these things affect such an operation. But all the equipment I propose is small and light, used extensively by the FallschimJäger which were dropped with this equipment, and they had to carry it along with them often over huge distances and sometimes in mountain terrain. This was no problem however as these weapons were very light.

Anyway one weapon at a time:

1. The LG.40 Recoilless cannon, a very small but very effective artillery piece:










You certainly wouldn't need a truck for that!

2. The Mortars, again small and highly effective.





3. Rheinmetall Solothurn S-18/1000, again not as big as you claim, and easily carried by two men (The weapon could be taken apart in seconds for transport). The whole weapon weighed 45 kg. Now I don't know about you but I can carry that easily, although not for many miles, the point being you certainly don't need a car, esp. since the weapon can be disassembled in parts. These babies were afterall used with succes by the FallschirmJäger in mountains amongst other places. (The long cold hammered barrel is what weighs I tell you!)






As you can see no trucks would be needed at all. But if you wanted you could pack them ALL into ONE truck. Now that's is a bit less than 20 eh ?


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## Soren (Feb 17, 2008)

> c) Small point, the FJ52 didn't work very well being to light for the full bore ammo



FJ52 ??? Full bore ammo ???

Incase you're talking about the FG-42 it wasn't too light at all. The FG-42 is a highly regarded weapon to this day, praised by gun experts as one of the finest smallarms ever built and by far the most advanced of WW2. Its characteristics can be summerized as such: Extremely precise, light, rugged, extremely comfortable and easy to wield, high rate of fire, easily handled in bursts, easily controlled on full auto when using the attached legs.

Anyway if you want an opinion from someone who actually fired the weapon try asking Les what he thought of it, if I recall correctly he said it was one of the greatest weapons from the last 70 years. 

FG-42 fired full auto:

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2CHkAVM67A_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwmUzz5Tl2A_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NakILDmzuA_

As to the full bore ammo, well I have no clue where you got that from, but you're probably trying to say that the FG-42 used the full power 7.92x57mm round instead of the 7.92x33 Kurz used by the StG.44.


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## Freebird (Feb 17, 2008)

Graeme said:


> As Wildcat pointed out the Darwin raid led to a panic flight of military personnel and civilians into the interior. A number of books have been published on the subject and conclude that it wasn't one of Australia's better moments in the war.





timshatz said:


> But if the Japenese did attack an Austrialian city with a suicide commando attack, *it would definitely freak the citizens out in a big way*. Same in the US or anywhere else. Especially if it was a sneak attack during the start of a war (as apposed to an action in the middle of a war).





Glider said:


> I have been a little slow getting to this thread but it is an interesting idea. I don't think that a suicide mission would do much good. It may well cause some damage ad even a minor panic but there is one problem with a suicide mission.
> The attackers are dead, the defenders can prove it, the attacks stop and the defenders can claim victory.
> You need something more to be effective, continual small strikes that can cause significant damage, that happen again and again, spread uncertainty.
> 
> Anything that involves lots of men and/or heavy weapons is doomed to failure



Actually Glider there would be quite an advantage I think. The cost is not huge in terms of manpower, maybe 300 - 400 men spread out in 5 - 8 teams, some infantry, RR's, MG's mortars. The point would be to shock the public in the US Canada (and Aus.). The immediate goal of the Allies after "Pearl" *should* be to re-inforce the threatened outposts in the Solomons, New Guinea, Midway, Burma etc, to prevent the Japanese conquests. {its alot harder to re-capture islands jungle than it is to strongly defend it in the beginning} However it becomes extremely difficult for the President to tell the nation that they need to send troops aircraft to defend or fight for Tugali, Port Morseby, Tarawa etc. {places people have never heard of} when public opinion is *overwhelmingly* crying out for the army to defend America's shores {or Australia's}. 

This is *exactly* the type of commando missions that should be made, which Adm. Keyes understood {and Mountbatten did not} The idea of the commando attack is to make the enemy *think* you plan to invade somewhere, you should never attack any target that you *actually plan to invade*. So the British commando attacks on Norway succeeded brilliantly, because Hitler sent several divisions there that could otherwise have been used against us. On the other hand, "Dieppe" was a fools mission, because {in addition to the heavy casualties} it made the Germans aware of some weaknesses in the Atlantic wall. Every battalion of troops every squadron of aircraft that is retained to defend America's shores {or Australia} are units that the Axis won't run into in the areas that they really do intend to attack.

By the way Soren, I like your idea of roving squads of commando's creating havoc in the rear area's. There will be thousands of checkpoints nationwide, with soldiers asking passing cars "How many home runs did Babe Ruth hit last year?"  {"Oh bloody hell, I'm British, can't you ask me a cricket question?"}    



Graeme said:


> ...and as they drive through the check point a cunning 'native' guard tells the lorry driver "You speak good English!" The driver replies "DANKE!" and the games up!
> 
> (Courtesy of a similar scene from the movie 'The Great Escape')


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## pbfoot (Feb 17, 2008)

Yeah it would shock the denizens but if you think the average joe was going to turn turtle your wrong these guys would be defending their property


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## Soren (Feb 17, 2008)

Now back to the plan, and follow this closely please!

Preperations

First the German commando unit needs to find and establish a central hiding defensive position, and this will be done at the very first night or very early in the morning. Once this is done an escape route is planned and hideouts are made. 

When all of the above has been done the targeted town and its surroundings need be studied, something which can be achieved quite easily by an undercover reconnaissance team. The same team should also preferably find out where the nearest native military base is located, thereby knowing what road it'll be utilizing to reach the town. Once that has been done three to four well concealed positions overlooking the city need be found established. 

Now when I earlier said that the Commandos should establish themselves around the town I meant in three or four positions like above, and in 3 or 5 man groups, overlooking the entry roads and the town itself, reporting back any activity. So thats around 15-20 men.

Additionally a single well concealable position with lots of vegetation overlooking the road where the native military will be coming from need be found. After that has been accomplished the four S-18/1000 rifles, two MG34's two MG42's are brought over to this position by a 15 man group under the cover of darkness, and once there the weapons are hidden away well camoflaged and then left there. 

Now after a thurough recon of the town, and esp. the natural surroundings, two suitable implacement positions for the artillery are established. The guns are then brought up to these positions the night up to the attack, either all in one place or split up in two. (I'd split them up) Each of the LG.40's will need three men for quick operation, so that's 12 men. The medium heavy mortars need two men each, so that's 20 men. So that's 32 men making up the artillery unit.

The small 50mm mortars aren't used for the initial bombardment, but by small 5 man groups moving around to provide a false indication of the main unit's awareness. (But this is during the attack itself which we'll get to later) Furthermore the 3 - 4 watch teams situated around the town overlooking it are equipped with two or three of these mini mortars each.

Once the artillery has been placed ready, or while it is being done, a 10 man team sets out to commandeer native transport vehicles and take the passengers hostage. The trucks or cars gained are then all driven to predetermined positions, made ready to be used incase of an emergency getaway and are then camoflaged to avoid detection.

The 10 man group then returns to be re-equipped to full combat gear, and with the rest they begin to ready themselves for the attack. 

The 3-4 watch units are each equipped with one small radio and the artillery unit with two radios, one in contact with the watch posts and one in contact with the commanders unit. The Commanders unit is equipped with one small radio for exclusive contact with the artillery watch units and one big radio operated by two specialists used to monitor any native radio transmissions from the area.

The Attack

First a little overview. 

The units in fixed positions are:

Artillery: 32 men
Watch: 15 - 20 men

So thats 47 - 52 men.

The remaining 23 - 28 men are split up like so:

Commanders unit: 5 men ( Staying at central hideout and keeping track of radio transmissions)
Distraction Ambush team: 18 - 23 men 

At either 0100 or 0200 hours local time the attack starts with a bombardment of the town by the artillery unit, the 81, 105 120mm high explosive shells causing a lot of damage. 5 min into the attack two 5 man groups of the 18/23 man team move in closer to the town and start firing with 50mm mortars from different directions, shifting location after 3 to 5 shells fired, this way distracting and fooling any natives trying to observe the direction from which the main artillery unit is firing.

Meanwhile the remaining 8 to 13 men from the 18/23 man team are acting as a rear guard, patrolling on foot in a circle around the town, keeping in touch with the other units over small radio.

After the attack has lasted 10 - 15 min all four 105mm LG40 artillery pieces 120mm Mortars fire off four leaflet shells each over the town (The leaflets containing scary messages such as "_What we just did to this town we can do to any other where when we choose, you're not safe anywhere_", I'm sure that'll send chills down the spine of the Australian the rest of the Allied countries), after that there's an all ceasefire and the artillery unit emmidiately pack up and leave as quickly as possible. 

The two 5 man distraction groups fall back and rejoin with the rest of their 18/23 man team which has been patrolling around the town. From there they head on over to the ambush position where the S-18/1000 and MG's are hidden and make ready.

At this point there is bound to be allot of native radio transmissions being sent to the closest military base, and this is closely monitored by the commanders unit which will be warning the ambush team when to be expecting contact. 

Meanwhile the watch units pull back, one of them heading for the ambush position to join up, while the rest head for the central hideout a good distance away from it all. They will stay there with the commanders unit until further instructed. (Perhaps being sent over to some of the hidden trucks to make ready for a hasty escape)

_________________________________

This is all for now, I'll add in the ambush the rest tommorrow..

I hope you have all enjoyed my little hypothesis so far


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## Soren (Feb 17, 2008)

> By the way Soren, I like your idea of roving squads of commando's creating havoc in the rear area's. There will be thousands of checkpoints nationwide, with soldiers asking passing cars "How many home runs did Babe Ruth hit last year?" {"Oh bloody hell, I'm British, can't you ask me a cricket question?"}



  

But you're exactly right. And even with all these checkpoints it's going to be VERY hard to find the commandoes as after the attack many will be dressed in civilian clothes and be equipped with Aussie passports. 

Another thing to remember is that since there's going to be needed allot of these checkpoints they can't all be equipped with very many men, and they are therefore VERY vulnerable to ambushes. The German commandos could just overwhelm a small post by show of arms or completely take one out with night attack, assasinating the post guards and leaving the post to be found abandoned. *Imagine a freaking scare that would give !* Quite a few checkpoint guards will probably be pissing there pants from then on


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## Glider (Feb 18, 2008)

Soren
Yes I do ,the question is, do you realise what you are letting your men in for?

The 20mm weighs 110 lb empty and each magazine 4lb say 12 mags per gun total 158 lb. Each man will need to carry around 50 lb pack for personal equipment total 125 lb each. Note that you admit to a two man crew so we are talking 8 men. 
You are not going to walk far carrying 125lb

The LG.40 yes its small, but it weighs 320Lb each shell will weigh around 12lb say 50 rpg totals 920lb not forgetting the space required for the ammo. This isn't being carried any distance. 

German 120mm mortar, this weighs in at 616lb and each shell 35lb. say 50 rpg and it totals a massive 2,360lb, you would be lucky to get it ashore.


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## Soren (Feb 18, 2008)

Glider,

I know exactly what I would have my men do. But you're seriously underestimating what each man is capable of! Try asking me how long I was forced to walk with a 35 kg backpack..

The S-18/1000 was assigned to two men, these two men had to carry it around, that's how it was done. The weapon weighs 45 kg with an empty mag, and so around 47 kg with a full one. The weapon is meant to be taken apart when carried over long distances, one man carrying the barrel (Which is the heavy part) the other rest of the weapon. This is easily done Glider.

Regarding the LG40, well it's not like the poor guys have to carry it, incase you didn't notice its got wheels  And its very easy to transport, a single man being able to tow it. So the LG40 only needs a single man to transport it. 

As for the 120mm mortar, this is the toughest one to transport, but again it is meant to be taken apart for transport like every other mortar. With six man each it can be transported quite easily. The shells have to be brought in afterwards ofcourse, so it's a two time trip, or a three time trips if they want it even easier. Getting it ashore is ZERO problem.

Anyway if they want it really easy all they have to do is commandeer a single truck and load the 120's onto it.


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## Glider (Feb 18, 2008)

Soren said:


> Glider,
> 
> I know exactly what I would have my men do. But you're seriously underestimating what each man is capable of! Try asking me how long I was forced to walk with a 35 kg backpack..
> The S-18/1000 was assigned to two men, these two men had to carry it around, that's how it was done. The weapon weighs 45 kg with an empty mag, and so around 47 kg with a full one. The weapon is meant to be taken apart when carried over long distances, one man carrying the barrel (Which is the heavy part) the other rest of the weapon.


 I don't think that you read my posting. You are not asking your men to carry 35kg, your asking them to carry 56.5KG if you include ammo and personal pack.


> This is easily done Glider.


 of course, walk in the park



> Regarding the LG40, well it's not like the poor guys have to carry it, incase you didn't notice its got wheels  And its very easy to transport, a single man being able to tow it. So the LG40 only needs a single man to transport it.


 And who is carrying the ammo which weighs 270 KG?



> As for the 120mm mortar, this is the toughest one to transport, but again it is meant to be taken apart for transport like every other mortar. With six man each it can be transported quite easily. The shells have to be brought in afterwards ofcourse, so it's a two time trip, or a three time trips if they want it even easier. Getting it ashore is ZERO problem.
> Anyway if they want it really easy all they have to do is commandeer a single truck and load the 120's onto it.



Check out the size of a 120 mortar. One of these mortars will need 24 man loads and that is without their own packs. It is totally impractical.

You haven't addressed the issue of how you are going to get all these men and tons of equipment to the coast, how are you going to get them ashore and how you are going to hide all this equipment and move it without being seen.

PS I have also served and carried packs, so I do know what is possible.


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## Glider (Feb 18, 2008)

Soren said:


> FJ52 ??? Full bore ammo ???
> 
> Incase you're talking about the FG-42 it wasn't too light at all. The FG-42 is a highly regarded weapon to this day, praised by gun experts as one of the finest smallarms ever built and by far the most advanced of WW2. Its characteristics can be summerized as such: Extremely precise, light, rugged, extremely comfortable and easy to wield, high rate of fire, easily handled in bursts, easily controlled on full auto when using the attached legs.
> 
> ...



The first version of the FG-42 did fire the full power round and was found to be very weak and unable to cater for this round. Only 2000 were built. The second version was built around the lighter round and only came into service towards the end of the war with around 5000 built.
So unless you are trying to do your raid in the latter part of 1944, yes you are trying to use the FG-42 with a full power round on a rifle that is to weak for it.


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## Soren (Feb 18, 2008)

You are completely and utterly wrong about the FG-42 Glider!

The FG-42 I-II both used the full power 7.92x57mm round, and both versions were excellent weapons, version No.1 just proved too expensive to produce. And they were not found too weak at all, you're just making that up. Both versions handled the 7.92x57mm easily and both were VERY rugged and reliable weapons, and extremely precise. 

FG-42 Version No.1





FG-42 Version No.2 







Additional pictures:


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## Soren (Feb 18, 2008)

Glider said:


> I don't think that you read my posting. You are not asking your men to carry 35kg, your asking them to carry 56.5KG if you include ammo and personal pack. of course, walk in the park



The weapon weighs 45 kg Glider, thats 22.5 kg pr. person. The ammo doesn't weigh much, perhaps 10 kg for 5 mags. Again like I said, it was done easily and it will be done easily.





> And who is carrying the ammo which weighs 270 KG?



Ever heard of two time trips ? Besides the Germans hard small carts for this.



> Check out the size of a 120 mortar. One of these mortars will need 24 man loads and that is without their own packs. It is totally impractical.
> 
> You haven't addressed the issue of how you are going to get all these men and tons of equipment to the coast, how are you going to get them ashore and how you are going to hide all this equipment and move it without being seen.
> 
> PS I have also served and carried packs, so I do know what is possible.




You clearly don't know what is possible at all Glider.

The 120mm mortar isn't that big Glider, you're making it sound like its some sort of howitzer!

German 120mm Mortar:









Six men could easily transport this weapon.


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## Freebird (Feb 18, 2008)

Glider said:


> And who is carrying the ammo which weighs 270 KG?
> 
> Check out the size of a 120 mortar. One of these mortars will need 24 man loads and that is without their own packs. It is totally impractical.
> 
> ...



Glider I think that the best option for the Germans would be to land the equipment by small boat, it could be cached in some isolated coastal area, and then if the commando's commandeer a few trucks to carry all the equipment.

*Another option that we haven't considered* is that in the Fall of 1941 there is a large pro-German "Bund" active in the USA, these German sympathisers {patriots?  } could be used to provide some trucks to pick up the commando's at the coastal landing place. remember that the situation in the USA is totally different than the UK. 

My grandmother was totally shocked when driving through the US upper mid-west to in the fall of 1940 {going from Vancouver, Canada to Toronto} to find the Octoberfest festival in full swing, *complete with Swatika's flying!*      

German American Bund - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Soren (Feb 18, 2008)

Freebird,

Getting the equipment ashore wouldn't prove a problem at all, just load up in rubber boats or have a local fisher boat come get it.

Moving on to the artillery pieces,

The Std. German 81mm mortar was normally carried operated by a 3 man team, while the 120mm mortar was normally carried operated by a 4 man team. So having six men carry it to the established position outside the town would be no problem. 

Here's a picture of a 3 man FallschirmJäger 81mm mortar team;






The LG.40 was normally just towed by a single man, while the other carried the ammunition, so again no problems.


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## Soren (Feb 18, 2008)

Here's a picture of 3inch British WW1 mortar team:


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## Freebird (Feb 18, 2008)

Soren said:


> Freebird,
> 
> Getting the equipment ashore wouldn't prove a problem at all, just load up in rubber boats or have a local fisher boat come get it.
> .



I would agree, but having some agents bring trucks to the landing site would help to keep the operation undetected longer, as it would save the commando's the trouble of comandeering trucks, with possible discovery. And as long as your commando's are landing on the US mainland, instead of attacking some coastal town, why not have them drive to within a couple of miles of a US airbase or Navy port and set up a mortar attack?


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## Soren (Feb 18, 2008)

Freebird,

I agree that a truck standing ready at the shore would make it easier, but it wouldn't make it stealthier. I actually best like the idea of multiple rubber boats coming ashore at night, the men quickly unloading making a perimeter and then the equipmnt is sailed in.

Also it isn't smart to commandeer native vehicles at any time until the night of the attack itself. The reason being that when people go missing there are going to be people looking for these, possibly including the native authorities.


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## Glider (Feb 18, 2008)

Soren said:


> You are completely and utterly wrong about the FG-42 Glider!
> 
> The FG-42 I-II both used the full power 7.92x57mm round, and both versions were excellent weapons, version No.1 just proved too expensive to produce. And they were not found too weak at all, you're just making that up. Both versions handled the 7.92x57mm easily and both were VERY rugged and reliable weapons, and extremely precise.



Your right about the same round I was wrong on that point but your wrong about the first version being robust. It was to weak.

Modern Firearms - FG-42 automatic rifle


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## Freebird (Feb 18, 2008)

Soren said:


> Freebird,
> 
> I agree that a truck standing ready at the shore would make it easier, *but it wouldn't make it stealthier.* I actually best like the idea of multiple rubber boats coming ashore at night, the men quickly unloading making a perimeter and then the equipmnt is sailed in.
> 
> Also it isn't smart to commandeer native vehicles at any time until the night of the attack itself. The reason being that when people go missing there are going to be people looking for these, possibly including the native authorities.



Well I meant it would be more stealthy for the reason that you just stated, no missing people. I would agree with Glider, the commandos should target infrastructure or military bases, and by moving quickly away from the coast they reduce the chance of being surrounded by roadblocks etc., and could move to find more visible targets. Blowing a dam for example would be a huge propaganda event.



Glider said:


> You need something more to be effective, continual small strikes that can cause significant damage, that happen again and again, spread uncertainty.
> Targets should be infrastructure based, water pumping stations, power lines, fuel pipelines, bridges, almost anything that impacts the civilian population. Anything that makes them question their goverment and what they are being told.
> 
> Attacks would be best spread over the coast forcing the defenders to spread their resources and reducing the risk to the attackers


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## Soren (Feb 18, 2008)

Glider said:


> Your right about the same round I was wrong on that point but your wrong about the first version being robust. It was to weak.
> 
> Modern Firearms - FG-42 automatic rifle



And thus you found the worst possible source on the FG-42, no surprise.

The FG-42 Version No.1 is NOT weak, it is a very robust reliable weapon, however it was too expensive and thus Version No.2 using more stamped parts was designed. 

Both versions easily handled the 7.92x57mm round, were extremely accurate, easy to wield, had a high rate of fire and were easy to control in bursts and if prone also in full auto. The smart muzzle brake design decreased the recoil allot.

Both versions of the FG-42 were loved by the FallschirmJägers who ordered that as many as possible to be made available. 

Here some reliable and good internet sources on the weapon (Otherwise you should by the book _Fallschirmjäger: German Paratrooper 1935-45_, which explains how much this weapon was loved by the FallschirmsJägers):
Home
FG42.us

In short the FG-42 was along with the MG-42 StG.44 one of the best and most advanced smallarms of WW2, highly regarded by gun experts to this day.


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## Glider (Feb 18, 2008)

I will leave this now with the thought that you are talking about many tons of equipment, being manually carried ashore in inflatable boats. Plus at least a hundred men. 
Has anyone any idea how many Submarines will be needed? Or how long it will take?

The ammunition is not been considered. The nice pictures shown by Soren show a WW1 3in mortar team with no ammunition and no personal packs, a German WW2 81mm team with about 6 rounds and no personal packs. A German 120mm Mortar that apparantly can be carried by 4 men, it weighs over 600lb thats over 150lb a man with no personal packs and no ammo that weighs 36lb a shell!!
Of course It has been claimed that you can put all the 120mm in a truck. Can anyone name any army, at any time, that has ever put more than 1x120mm mortar in any truck/APC, or any other form of transport. Even today when the weapons weigh a lot less than they did in WW2? 

My money is on the defenders all they need is one aircraft with a radio. The subs will not come back with an aircraft in the air. The Troops will run out of fuel and food and be easily spotted in those numbers. Then they will be on their own.


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## pbfoot (Feb 18, 2008)

Glider said:


> I will leave this now with the thought that you are talking about many tons of equipment, being manually carried ashore in inflatable boats. Plus at least a hundred men.
> Has anyone any idea how many Submarines will be needed? Or how long it will take?
> 
> The ammunition is not been considered. The nice pictures shown by Soren show a WW1 3in mortar team with no ammunition and no personal packs, a German WW2 81mm team with about 6 rounds and no personal packs. A German 120mm Mortar that apparantly can be carried by 4 men, it weighs over 600lb thats over 150lb a man with no personal packs and no ammo that weighs 36lb a shell!!
> ...


Couldn't say it better 
I was going to ask what they are smoking and where can I get some


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## Soren (Feb 18, 2008)

Glider,

You have only shown that you yourself have no idea.

The picture of the 3 man FJ mortar team clearly shows both personal pack, ammunition pouches etc etc. The FallschirmJäger like the Wehrmacht soldier carried his food provisions in a tubular canister on his back, while cleaning kits, ammunition, personal belongings etc etc were stuffed into the many pockets. 

And like you yourself pointed out the mortars of today are no lighter than those used back then, and guess what today the std. mortar team is the same 3 man one, even the heavy 120mm mortars are assigned 3 man teams.

US 120mm mortar team:


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## Freebird (Feb 18, 2008)

Soren said:


> Glider,
> 
> You have only shown that you yourself have no idea.



Hey, lets keep the discussion positive....



Glider said:


> I will leave this now with the thought that you are talking about many tons of equipment, being manually carried ashore in inflatable boats. Plus at least a hundred men.
> Has anyone any idea how many Submarines will be needed? Or how long it will take?
> 
> The ammunition is not been considered. .



Soren I think Glider is right about the difficulty, I don't think inflatable boats would be the best method.

I think the Japanese might have to use subs, if a
landing men in Australia, simply because the country was at war and more alert. 

For a German commando attack on the US I think a cargo freighter would be the best transport. Since the Brandenburgers would be attacking targets in the US East Coast, they could send the equipment by cargo ship, of neutral flag {Vichy or Spanish} Then if the ship was stopped by the Royal Navy the cargo would appear to be munitions being sent to re-supply some of the colonies. There was no embargo on outbound arms, only inboud to Germany, IIRC. 

The German equipment could be painted with instructions in French - {insertez le bombe ici  } Somewhere near the Americas the commando team could be put aboard the freighter from a U-boat or two. The freighter could either land at night in some small port, or else the equipment could be transferred to a longboat or cutter. Either way there should be some fifth-column agents ready with trucks to take them off at the port or pier. Another good option would be to transfer the cargo to a fishing boat, as a ship of this type would not be suspicious if unloading cargo in the middle of the night.

The appearence of a cargo freighter would not raise any suspicions, whereas if anyone noticed the U-boat unloading cargo at night then the whole cover would be blown


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## Soren (Feb 18, 2008)

Well it all depends on where the cargo is unloaded.

My suggestion is at an unbusy shore line, up to 10 km away from target area. At 0100 or 0200 hours there are hardly going to be anyone present at such a place, a place where someone might occasionally take a stroll with their dog during the day. 

The way it would work is as follows:

0100 hours, the Uboat(s) raises up its telescope and scans the shoreline, and if the weather is good the operation starts. The Uboat(s) surfaces, the commandos bring up and inflate their rubber boats. Once this is done, a 5 man team sets away for the shore to check it out. If the coast is clear the 5 man team signals a go ahead and the equipment is brought up out of the Uboat(s) and into rubber boats for themselves. These rubber boats contain the equipment only and are tied to the other rubber boats containing the commandos, thus being towed ashore.

Once ashore the equipment is hurridly moved up to the nearest densly vegetated area. The rubber boats are then deflated and dug down at a marked position.

The commandos have now landed and can proceed to find establish a good central hiding defensive position.


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## Freebird (Feb 19, 2008)

Soren said:


> Well it all depends on where the cargo is unloaded.
> 
> My suggestion is at an unbusy shore line, up to 10 km away from target area. At 0100 or 0200 hours there are hardly going to be anyone present at such a place, a place where someone might occasionally take a stroll with their dog during the day.
> 
> ...



If you were landing 50 commando's with the equipment you listed what would be the total weight? How much ammo would they need to bring for a month's operation? Were the Brandenburgers trained to improvise explosives? {ie diesel fertilizer, like the O.K. city bombing}


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## Glider (Feb 19, 2008)

Soren said:


> Glider,
> 
> You have only shown that you yourself have no idea.
> 
> ...



I obviously don't know what I am talking about. I didn't realise that you could get food for at least 4 days, tent, sleeping gear, foul weather gear, water canteen, emergency escape kit, personal weapon, ammo, personal first aid kit and the other bits and pieces that soldiers take into battle in those pockets. My mistake  . 

By the way what was in your pack when you carrying the 35kg load you frequently mentioned.


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## Soren (Feb 19, 2008)

freebird said:


> If you were landing 50 commando's with the equipment you listed what would be the total weight? How much ammo would they need to bring for a month's operation? Were the Brandenburgers trained to improvise explosives? {ie diesel fertilizer, like the O.K. city bombing}



The Brandenburgers were experts at making explosives, there being experts within each field in the company. 

The total weight of all the equipment, including the equipment the commandos had to carry on themselves makes up quite a few tons of equipment. However most of the equipment would be in containers like below so they are easy to move once ashore:






The artillery heavy weapons containers would need their own rubber boats, probably five to six boats. These are tied to the boats manned by the commandos and are then towed to shore. When ashore the equipment is hurridly moved up to the nearest vegetated area, there being no reason to risk anything.

As far as the equipment of the individual soldier, well this would consist of the heavy FallschirmJäger field kit, with perhaps a few extra accessories. The kit consists of all the things the soldier would need; Field cleaning kit, water bottle + canteen (In one), food / gasmask container, bread bag, survival hygiene kit (in belt pouch), trench shovel, BUND German multipurpose paratrooper knife, lighter, multiple leg chest pockets for various equipment (maps, personal items etc) and etc etc..

Some pictures of the FallschirmJägers:













And some pictures of the Brandenburgers:


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## Emac44 (Mar 5, 2008)

I have no doubt Soren you find this an exciting idea to land Brandenburg Elite Troops on Australian Soil in 1942 and equip them as such to form a hit and run Commando Troop. Then deploy them with the amount of Munitions Equipment and Food to sustain them. You mentioned they would be either secreted by Submarine or Long Range Amphib Aircraft

My question is of logistics military intelligence and other scenerios you may have overlooked 
1 Getting the men in first place to be on just how many submarines. Between 75 to 150 Troops to be conveyed?
2 Logistics in Travel over 12,000 Miles across and into 4 Oceans Mediterrian Atlantic Indian or Pacific without being discovered enroute. And I believe you may have overlooked such a large covert operation would have attracted some ones observation or attention. The British at least had Intelligence Operatives working in Occupied Europe . And depending on whence you launch the attack on Australian Mainland?
3 And one question that nagged me with your scenerio Soren was this. I presume that German Military Radio Traffic and Military Codes were broken by MI5 and MI6. Not just German Armys but also Naval Codes as well. Do you think the formation of such a an attack could be kept of the Military Radio Nets or had been on Abwer intelligence sources without being intercepted by the Allies before German Commandos even left Germany. Now if I remember the Abwer Codes had been broken by British Intelligence.
4 The above concerns I have mentioned is even before the Elite German Troops had even left Germany. The security to launch this escapade would have to be very stringent and extreme without the whole possiblity that the Allies wouldn't have stumbled across it.
5 If the German Elite Commandos had come say from Japan it would be possible. But I am going to say these German Elite Troops have come straight from a European Theatre of War and hence the above problems would surface 
6 And I would also say that British Intelligence would have already passed on the suppossed German Commando Plan to Australian Intelligence by this stage. If the British Intelligence Service of M15 and MI6 hadn't already discovered it by various means I have already eluded to. And as such Soren the case would be that the German Commando Raid would be intercepted if not long before leaving Europe or Enroute or even of the Australian Coastline.

Your scenerio speaks well of German Elite Troops but leaves out to many other scenerios without consideration of 
1 British and Commonwealth Military and Covert Operations discovering the German Plan
2 Transport and Logistics over 12,000 miles
3 Down Playing Allied Responses whilst your Elite German Troops are enroute 
4 And the size of this supposive force you wish to employ. With the above problems of Transportation and logistic. 
5 And of course another problem would be refuelling the Submaries enroute and all these vessels enroute to Australia. Can't use either the Suez or Panama Canals as they are both controlled by the Allies. So the Submarirines Refuelling vessels or ships have to pass the areas of Sth Africa and South America and again hopefuly no detection would occur or disasters enroute by natural events like bad weather storms or other hazardous conditions to shipping let alone during war time conditions to deal with


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## Freebird (Mar 5, 2008)

Emac44 said:


> I have no doubt Soren you find this an exciting idea to land Brandenburg Elite Troops



I'm afraid that I'm mostly responsible for this unpleasant scenario...   



Emac44 said:


> My question is of logistics military intelligence and other scenerios you may have overlooked
> 1 Getting the men in first place to be on just how many submarines. Between 75 to 150 Troops to be conveyed?
> 2 Logistics in Travel over 12,000 Miles across and into 4 Oceans Mediterrian Atlantic Indian or Pacific without being discovered enroute. And I believe you may have overlooked such a large covert operation would have attracted some ones observation or attention. The British at least had Intelligence Operatives working in Occupied Europe . And depending on whence you launch the attack on Australian Mainland?



I was actually thinking that this would be a coordinated attack by both Japan Germany, with *the Japanese attacking Pacific targets the Germans against the Atlantic ones.*



Emac44 said:


> 3 And one question that nagged me with your scenerio Soren was this. I presume that German Military Radio Traffic and Military Codes were broken by MI5 and MI6. Not just German Armys but also Naval Codes as well. Do you think the formation of such a an attack could be kept of the Military Radio Nets or had been on Abwer intelligence sources without being intercepted by the Allies before German Commandos even left Germany. Now if I remember the Abwer Codes had been broken by British Intelligence.
> 4 The above concerns I have mentioned is even before the Elite German Troops had even left Germany. The security to launch this escapade would have to be very stringent and extreme without the *whole possiblity that the Allies wouldn't have stumbled across it.*



Quite true. But AFAIK, the Allies lost the ability to read the transmissions in Oct/Nov 41, with the new code, and more problems in Feb '42 with the introduction of the 5 wheel enigma. If the operation is planned sent out with instructions there is a good possibility that the Allies won't know exacly what is going on, the problem with the U-boats was that with their type of operation they were often getting instructions from HQ, which gave away the plans to the Allies. I'm basing this on {1} the Allies were not able to pin down exactly what Japan was going to do on Dec 7, only a general idea that something was going on. {2} Even though the British warned the USN about operation "Drumbeat" in Jan 42, there was nothing that could really be done about it, too few ASW assets. In fact it took over 3 months to sink the first U-boat off of the US coast.

As for Japan, I imagine that they would have "tested the waters", by sending a few small freighters around the Aussie coast in the summer of '41, to see how vigilant the RAN was. If it seems that there are too many patrol craft, then insertation by sub would be the option used. In any event, the Japanese were good at living off the land, a few dozen guys could create havoc confusion all over the place, and of course no evacuation is needed, as they would fight to the last man.



Emac44 said:


> 5 *If the Elite Commandos had come say from Japan it would be possible.* But I am going to say these German Elite Troops have come straight from a European Theatre of War and hence the above problems would surface
> .
> 
> Your scenerio speaks well of German Elite Troops but leaves out to many other scenerios without consideration of
> ...



Very good points. I would think that the key here for Germany is that with advance notice they can achieve much more, and could have the supply subs in place on the US atlantic coast to keep the operation going


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## Soren (Mar 6, 2008)

Emac44,

Most of your questions have already been answered but I'll go into detail here;

First of all it wouldn't be a problem reaching the US or let alone Australia undiscovered by U-boat, the Germans continued to run undiscovered all over the Atlantic throughout the war, often right outside the US coast. The only time the Uboats were really risking getting caught were when attacking convoys or running on the surface. Furthermore the German naval code was anything but broken in 1942, new wheels continuously being added to the enigma machine. 

Also many of the operations carried out by the Abwehr were so secret that even Hitler didn't know about them. Hitler would often order similar missions carried out, but the details he was always left without. The planning of the operation was kept entirely within the Abwehr. So the details of an operation like the one suggested by Freebird would've been kept completely within closed doors.

As for Allied covert infiltrations, well I am completely unaware of the Abwehr ever being infiltrated throughout the war, according to my sources it never happened, no attempts of ever trying such even being mentioned at all. On the other hand the Abwehr were responsible for many of the captures of Allied OSS personnel.

So infiltrating the Abwehr was pretty much impossible, and didn't happen. Thus the operation wasn't going to be blown before launching.

Infact similarly secretive operations as the one suggested were carried out by the Germans in WW2, and this was just like suggested in Freebird's scenario accomplished with transport by Uboat:

uboat.net - U-boat Operations - German saboteur landings in June 1942
uboat.net - U-boat Operations

Heck even in late 1944 (Nov), with the German naval code long broken did the Abwehr manage to secretly land two agents in the states:

uboat.net - U-boat Operations - German agents land in Nov 1944

So the operation is very much possible.

Moving on..

As for how many U-boats would be needed, well one or two at most. Emptying the rear torpedo room in a Type IXC and you've got enough room for nearly all the equipment needed, while the light equipment can easily be stashed away all over the boat. The rubber boats could be packed away in the top cargo hold originally intended for additional torpedoes.


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## Aussie1001 (Mar 6, 2008)

.
Do you have any idea of the Australian terrain
it is not like europe where everyone sits on top of one another, we are talking about a country who's second largest state (Queensland) is large enough to fit 13 UK's in. Most of this country is wasteland, towns being Very far and few between, say an average of about 1000 km between each major town, how without transport to you plan to achieve these distances ? how do you get more supplies ?
How do you hide this amout of equipment from the RAAF who would come looking as soon as it bacame clear this was going on, remember Aboriginals live out there, Your German elite don't stand a hope in hell against people who have been living there for the past 50 000 years, soon enough word would get to someone who could do something about this.


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## Soren (Mar 6, 2008)

Have you at all been reading the posts in this thread Aussie1001 ??

Why the heck would the Germans want to land their team 1,000 km away from the nearest town ?? What kind of logic is that ?

Like I said the landing would occur approx. 10 km away from the nearest big city. 

And as for the RAAF, they aint gonna find a thing as the Commando's will be either disguised or hiding. Or do you imagine them walking out in the open with weapons and in full uniform ?? 

Furthermore the transport needed would be commandeered, (Have you at all been listening ??!) on the night of the attack, providing a quick getaway after the attack.

For the rest of the details read the posts in this thread.


Oh and for your first question; Yes I do, I have family over there.


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## Freebird (Mar 6, 2008)

Another interesting possibility, if Germany Italy had time to plan before the Japanese attack, imagine if the U-boats had transported a few of the Italian frogmen to Norfolk Navy base for a surprise attack on the morning of "Pearl"? I think there were 3 aircraft carriers there at the time.

Is their any reason to believe that the peacetime US Navy base would be even half as vigilant as the British in Alexandria? {didn't stop the Italians from holing 2 BB's anyways...}


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## Soren (Mar 6, 2008)

Good points Freebird.


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## Freebird (Mar 6, 2008)

*I have a question for Emac, Graeme the other Aussie's*, what was the political situation like in 1941-1942 Australia? Was there any debate about the war strategy or was it more like a "unity government"?

How did the public feel about sending troops to fight in N.Guinea Singapore?

I know some about UK, US Canadian WWII politics but not as much about "down under"


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## Emac44 (Mar 6, 2008)

Freebird in the early part of WW2 from 1939 to 1941 the Menzie Conservative Govt was in Power. But the feeling towards volunterring for active service by Australians was generally except as part of doing one's duty for King Empire and Country. As the feelings were similar to those ANZACs who volunteered for World War 1 1914-18. Service in WW2 was seen by many as the passing of the Torch from the previous Generation (WW1) to the Generation of WW2. This was universially similar although World War 2 regardless when the Curtain Government (Australian Labour Party) came to power in late 1941. Sending Troops overseas regardless of whence those Troops would see service was an Empire Duty Freebird. So it didn't cause any great problems if the 8th Division went to Singapore for what was then Garrison Duty or the 6th 7th and 9th Division were in North Africa Greece and Palistine. As for the Royal Australian Navy they saw service just like the RAAF in all areas of World War 2. But that changed in 1942 with the Fall of Singapore. When the Curtain Government insisted the 2nd AIF was to come home immediately to defend Australia and New Guinea. But the 9th Division after El Alemain was to come home as soon as possible. 6ht and 7th Divisions came home with some Regiments respectfuly staying in North Africa and Palistine. The Curtain Govt was unimpressed with Winston Churchill. As Churchill disregarded Australia's fear of invasion. But Curtain prevailed over Churchills objections. Even though Churchill tried to divert Australian Troopships to Rangoon and other Troopships were diverted to Dutch East Indies. To give you a total abstract idea into Australian Politcs at the time Freebird would take some time. Hope I answered some of your queries


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## Emac44 (Mar 7, 2008)

Soren said:


> Emac44,
> 
> Most of your questions have already been answered but I'll go into detail here;
> 
> ...



Again Soren you have overlooked the Logistics of sending Uboats some 12,000 to 15,000 Sea Miles across Not only the Atlantic but also the Indian or the Pacific and still you haven't addressed refueling them adequately. And by your recomendation how many Submarines to transport these men some 15,000 Sea miles by Uboat and have them refuelled and considering Japan being abled to assist. In early 1942 to mid 1942 without their own Transports and Refueling Vessels being sighted by US British Dutch and Australian Submarines operating of Freemantle in Western Australia which patrolled the Dutch East Indies Indian Ocean and Philippine Seas. I am sorry Soren you haven't addressed it at all. You imagine crossing the Atanltic as the German Uboats had done on numerous occassions is a piece of Cake. So it would be easy to cross the Indian or the Pacific with large Uboat Force to transport these men to Australian Shores. You are great on arming your supposive Elite German Troops but poor on Logistics. And the Abwehr Codes had been broken by the Allies at Betchly Park. And Japanese Naval Codes had also been broken Soren. And most of the Code Breakers in Australia were Australians who worked for British Intelligence

So Move on yourself Soren as you have dismissed having your scenerio questioned on LOGISTICS and came up lacking


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## Emac44 (Mar 7, 2008)

freebird said:


> I'm afraid that I'm mostly responsible for this unpleasant scenario...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes I agree the Japanese were good at landing some operatives and laying of Coast But Soren is imagining sending German Uboats with 150 German Commandos 15,000 Sea Miles. Across Indian Pacific and Atlantic to supposively contact Japanese Refuelling in either Pacific or Indian Ocean. Submarines are covert by their very nature but an on surface refuelling vessel isn't Freebird. The Germans were only abled to manage 2 or 3 Operatives by Submarine on the Atlanitic Coast of South and North America but Soren is asking us to believe sending 150 German Commandos 15,000 sea miles. And again I say it would be near impossible


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## Freebird (Mar 7, 2008)

Emac44 said:


> The Curtain Govt was unimpressed with Winston Churchill. As Churchill disregarded Australia's fear of invasion. But Curtain prevailed over Churchills objections. Even though Churchill tried to divert Australian Troopships to Rangoon and other Troopships were diverted to Dutch East Indies. To give you a total abstract idea into Australian Politcs at the time Freebird would take some time. Hope I answered some of your queries




thanks for the info. *Was there a 'peace' party or a "isolationist" faction in Australia?* {perhaps thinking that if the Commonwealth didn't interfere with Japan in China or Indonesia that war could be avoided?}

I don't know if you know this, but *part of Churchill's problem with Australia was caused by Canadian political difficulties.* {not that I am defending his poor performance as defence minister} The British Chief of the Army approached Canada in 1941 to send troops to N. Africa to replace the Australians who {quite rightly} wanted to pull troops back to the PTO. Canada declined because {they said} they only wanted the Canadian Corps to participate in a more "prestigeous" operation in Europe. The real reason is that the liberal government was desperate to avoid casualties so as to avoid conscription, a political minefield in Quebec. The support for the war effort in Canada is listed at about 65% during this time, but this consists of 85-90+ % support in English Canada, and only about 25% support in Quebec {after the Surrender of France of course}



Emac44 said:


> Yes I agree the Japanese were good at landing some operatives and laying of Coast But Soren is imagining sending German Uboats with 150 German Commandos 15,000 Sea Miles. Across Indian Pacific and Atlantic to supposively contact Japanese Refuelling in either Pacific or Indian Ocean. Submarines are covert by their very nature but an on surface refuelling vessel isn't Freebird. The Germans were only abled to manage 2 or 3 Operatives by Submarine on the Atlanitic Coast of South and North America but Soren is asking us to believe sending 150 German Commandos 15,000 sea miles. And again I say it would be near impossible



Yes i agree it would be more difficult for Germany to make it too Australia, I would think that they would be used on the US East coast, to interfere with US plans to send troops to Europe. It would be more in Japan's interest to provoke worry dissent in Australia to prevent the Commonwealth from interfering with Japanese plans in Maylasia Indonesia etc. 

If the Allies had really been serious they could have prevented the Singapore debacle with a couple more regiments, a few dozen tanks a hundred or so more P-40's or Hurricanes. Unfortunatly for us Churchill was slow to react. It would have been interesting to see what would happen in Singapore if it was under the command of someone experienced in Siege warfare, like Morsehead.

*Luckily for the Allies the Japanese Germans were so overconfident* that they never saw the need for these type of operations, because I think it would have been a big problem for the Allies if they had


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## Emac44 (Mar 7, 2008)

And what Soren didn't mention that Wilhelm Caneris who was hanged by the NAZI's in 1944 after the attempted Assaination Plot of Hitler had been in dispute with Himmler and his SD and SS Intelligence Services from 1940 to 1942 as well And Caneris did have his own spy network as opposed to the SD and SS . Abhwer had successes yes Freebird but Wilhelm Caneris and some of his own Intelligence Staff members were lose cannons and had supplied information to the Allies. Including from June 1941 to 1943 Caneris opposing gaining intelligence from Soviet POWs. So when I mentioned Abhwer had been infiltrated and was comprimised it certainly was by no less than Caneris himself. So now the Scenerio takes a different twist. 

Soren's Plan goes ahead and Caneris betrays it to the Allies. 
1 Caneris Leaks the size of the German Elite Corps exsistence
2 Caneris leaks all details of the mission
3 Caneris leaks information on Submarine movements detailed for the Commando Raid
4 Caneris leaks the Target and agendas
5 Caneris passes on all codes and information 
6 Caneris leaks the refueling points for Submarines 
7 Caneris passes the information to British Intelligence via Madrid through intermediataries
8 Caneris Information is evaluated by British Intelligence 
9 British Intelligence sends in their own teams to monitor Brandenberg Troop movements 
10 British Intelligence passes on all information to Australian Intelligence
11 Royal Australian Navy Royal Navy RAAF and Australian Imperial Land Forces await German Submarines to arrive capturing or destroying Submarines. Taking as Prisoners of War all survivors of the failed Commando Mission. 


As for peace movements in Australia. The Australian Communists and Australian Socialist like their British Counterparts opposed the War with Germany Freebird. It wasn't until the USSR had been attacked did the Communists and Socialist come on side. Mainly the opposition to the war came about with Stalin's Non Agression Pacts with the Axis Freebird


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## Soren (Mar 7, 2008)

Emac44,

No, I haven't overlooked logistics. The German U-boats could go a very long way before they needed refueling, something which you seem to have missed. Furthermore there were the "milkcows", U-boats dedicated to refuel resupply German U-boats operating a long way from home.

The Type IXC has a range of 13,800 miles (22,080 km), and with milk cows to resupply refuel it on the way home it would have no problems what'so'ever reaching Australia. But a type even better for this operation is the Type IXD, a very large boat with a lot of space and a range 23,700 miles (37,920 km), this boat wouldn't even need milk cows.

Also when'ever did two U-boats become a large U-boat force ? Does it sound like a big U-boat force to you ?? Come on Emac44, seriously.


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## Soren (Mar 7, 2008)

Emac44 said:


> And what Soren didn't mention that Wilhelm Caneris who was hanged by the NAZI's in 1944 after the attempted Assaination Plot of Hitler had been in dispute with Himmler and his SD and SS Intelligence Services from 1940 to 1942 as well And Caneris did have his own spy network as opposed to the SD and SS . Abhwer had successes yes Freebird but Wilhelm Caneris and some of his own Intelligence Staff members were lose cannons and had supplied information to the Allies. Including from June 1941 to 1943 Caneris opposing gaining intelligence from Soviet POWs. So when I mentioned Abhwer had been infiltrated and was comprimised it certainly was by no less than Caneris himself. So now the Scenerio takes a different twist.
> 
> Soren's Plan goes ahead and Caneris betrays it to the Allies.
> 1 Caneris Leaks the size of the German Elite Corps exsistence
> ...



If this were the case then please Emac44, explain to me how it was possible for the Germans to successfully carry out similar operations on many other occasions, one even in late 44 ??

The Germans not only could carry out such an operation, they did, several times.


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## Aussie1001 (Mar 7, 2008)

Soren you are talking poo.
you seem to be the only one who thinks it can be managed.
What is your reply to the fact that the british had cracked the german navel code thanks partly to one of the first computers ever built,_ Colossus _
how is your german army supposed to get to australia when we already know.
a) when you will set off from your starting point.
b) Roughly when you will get here
and c) where and when you land.
How can you defend against an enemy who already knows your whole mission details?
answer you can't.


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## Emac44 (Mar 7, 2008)

And Soren you have made the CLAIM that Abhwer wasn't comprimised by the ALLIES. History disputes that claim. As the leader of the Abhwer Caneris was hanged by the NAZIs in 1944 for TREASON. Trying to asssasinate and being implicated in the PLOT to kill Hitler. And Caneris had already supplied information to the ALLIES Previously. Caneris himself opposed Hitler Himmler Goering and the NAZI Party in Germany. Caneris was a LOYAL German. That doesn't mean he was a LOYAL NAZI. 

Those were small operation Soren of one or two men. But again you are suggesting a Flaming fully equiped Regiment . And Again you believe Abhwer was not comprimised which History states otherwise. Maybe when you start playing the Scenerio Game you better believe it Soren I will come up with Scenerios of my own to refute yours 

Your scenerio bases itself on 
1 Abhwer Operation
2 Brandenberg Troops
3 Forgetting that Abhwer itself wasn't secure. After all Soren you made it pretty well certain that Abhwer wasn't comprimised as an Intelligence Service
4 Himmeler his SD and SS Intelligence Service not finding out about supposed operations by Abhwer
5 The Allies Intelligence Service themselves








And Soren you may find German Armed Forces during WW2 sexy or supermen. I don't. Your Scenerio has more holes in it then Swiss Cheese and your own stubborness can't visualize you had made errors and miscalculations. And Caneris being one of the lynch pins with Abhwer being unreliable ( which History Proves he was) in a full scale operations. There is a big difference launching a 1 to 5 men Commando Squad on the American Continent to a 150 man operation stretched over 15,000 Sea Miles to a diverse continent on the other side of the world from Germany. Admit it Soren your scenerio is over ambitious


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## Soren (Mar 8, 2008)

The Abwehr wasn't infiltrated by the Allies, that's what I said. That Canaris supplied the Allies with some information is another story. 

Also Emac44 it's really sad that you have to twist what I say in order for it to fit your own argument. Cause first of all I never mentioned 150 men being sent, it was 75 men! Somehow you found the need to double this figure.

Also Emac44, you have failed to answer my question as to how the Germans were able to successfully launch similar operations right up till late 1944 ?? 

Also you CLAIM that the German naval code was broken in 42, fact is though that the German naval code was anything BUT broken in 42. So again there goes that right out the window.

You also claim that the German subs couldn't ahve travelled that far without being discovered, while in reality the German subs not only did this throughout the war but they did it on a regular basis, and they were rarely caught. Heck you wer even cocky enough to CLAIM that the German subs couldn't travel that far without havng to be refueled! However once again you were wrong, very wrong. 

So it is your argument Emac44 which is as holed as Swiss cheese, NOT mine!


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## Emac44 (Mar 8, 2008)

And again Soren you are wrong considering that the 1xd2 Uboats were built for long range and only 28 were built but also their engines and motors were not replaced until June 1943 U195 being an example. Which places it well outside your scenerio in 1942. Of the Ixd1 U180 being an example only 2 were built and these were for speed. And again with the 6 Daimler Benz Engines MB501 on this varient of Submmarine came mechanical problems. Such Mechanical problems of overheating and emissions of white exhaust fumes whilst surfaced was a tell taled trace to its exsistence. As there was only ONE incident of a Type 1xd2 Uboat reaching Penang Island West Coast of Malaya in September 1943 and damaged and captured in Batavia 1945 after being transferred to the Imperial Japanese Navy in May 1945 after Germany's Surrender. But this vessel still didn't arrive in Penang until September of 1943 which places it well outside your scenerio dates BUT IT ALSO REFUELLED AT VICHY FRENCH ISLAND OF MADAGASSCAR ENROUTE. YES IT MAY HAVE HAD 23,000 NACTICUL MILE RANGE BUT IT APPEARS IT NEEDED TO REFUEL BEFORE REACHING PENANG or it that something else you didn't know Soren. I am referring to the operation Munson. Yes this UBoat had hunted of the Australian and New Zealand Coastlines and had scored less then 7 Allied Merchant Ships it again places it well outside your early 1942 scenerio.

And its yourself Soren who can't seem to comprehend that it was Caneris who was in charge of Abhwer who betrayed not only the plans of Germany to invade Poland in 1939 to the British and French Governments. But also betrayed the Barbarosa Plans to the British in June 1941 and the as for your PLAN Caneris would most likely betray that as well. Which you can't seem to get into your head. Your Security of your PLAN is Comprimised. And again you claim that the German Naval Codes remained unbroken and HISTORY again proves you wrong on this. From all the source I HAVE READ for a period of time in 1942 German Naval Codes were unavailable due to Enigma changes. However by late 1942 to early 1943 Ultra and Colossaus were abled to read German Military codes including KriegsMarine. This is another oversight of yours Soren. And as such I direct your attention to Operation Torch in North Africa of late 1942. It was imperative that the Allies knew the operation of UBoat Command. So again you are wrong very wrong Soren. Even when that short period of time early 1942 when Ultra had problems deciphering KriegsMarine Codes and it was known as the 2nd Happy Time for UBoat Submarine Crews it didn't last the year Soren. By Mid 1942 to early 1943 Engima Codes were being read using Ultra and Collauses and continued right to wars end.

And still Soren HISTORY proves you WRONG AGAIN 

1 Kriegsmarine Codes rebroken in mid 1942 to early 1943 by Collasus and Ultra Machines. Which was imperative as Operation Torch was due in late 1942
2 1xd1 type Submarine Engine and Motor Problems 2 built
3 1xd2 type Submarine 28 built. of that only 1 Uboat arrived Penang Island September 1943 
4 Type XX Uboat construction Terminated 1943 AG Weser Bremen Construction. Contracts U1601 through U1615 and U1701 Through UBoats 1715 were all cancelled never built
5 Type XXI never left the drawing boards

And again Soren it is yourself who has imagined the scenerio to take place in early 1942 and the above information you yourself supplied makes it impossible for such an attack to take place as your Submarine Transport isn't available as HISTORY again proves until September of 1943 of 1xd2 Engine refit 
And the 1xd1s only 2 built with engine and mechanical problems. Overheating and White fumes coming from exhausts 

Now you explain to me how you are going to carry out your scenerio 
1 Without Submarine Transport until September 1943 as your scenerio takes place in early 1942 as it appears you ain't going to transport jackshit in early 1942 let alone 75 men or 150 men as the BLOODY SUBMARINES are in dry dock getting refitted
2 Lapses in Enigma Coding and I presume your plans taking conception in 1941 when the British prior to February of 1942 has Read ENIGMA CODING and by mid 1942 to end of war had regained the ENIGMA CODE READING
3 Your lapses in security with Caneris
4 And you have also forgotten that by 1942 to 1945 Germany may have well built Submarines but her resources were being guided not just to Submarine building but also other areas that needed steel and engineering. As Germany was being pressed not only to build Submarines but also Aircraft Tanks and all other weapons. With her Supply lines also being attacked in the Baltic Regions and Germany's Docks Cities Manufacturing and supply depots coming under attack by the RAF and USAF by daylight and night bombing raids. Plus Germany pouring Mitlitary needs in the attack of USSR;. All this would not benefit Germany in her ability to sustain her War Effort. But still trying to maintaining attacks by UBoats on Allied Shipping but having to disperse her UBoat Fleets in the Atlantic to the Russian Convoy routes and that U Boat Fleet coming under sustained attack from the Allies
5 And if Ultra and Collasuas were such a failure as you are claiming. Then explain to me why 8 out of 10 Uboat and Crews failed to return by the end of the WAR and had fallen victim to USN RN RCN and Allied AirCraft hunting UBoats
6 And have you considered that changes in Command had taken place in the KriegsMarine with Raeder and Dornitz would have effected UBoat and Surface Raiders effectiveness during WW2. It seems you haven't

To many Swiss Cheese Holes again Soren in your scenerio


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## Soren (Mar 9, 2008)

Again you're the one who is wrong Emac44,

The Type IXD2's were running patrols from early 42 till wars end, and their engines weren't refitted.

uboat.net - U-boat Types

And all the rest you have posted is equally wrong, and ofcourse without reference, no surprise.

Fact is that the Enigma was unbroken from Feb 42 to Dec 1942, a period of 10½ months! (Thank the M4 for this)


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## SeaSkua (Mar 9, 2008)

Soren said:


> The Abwehr wasn't infiltrated by the Allies, that's what I said. That Canaris supplied the Allies with some information is another story.



Would any commando operation be run by ABWEHR? 

Was Canaris an ALLIED agent?


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## Soren (Mar 9, 2008)

SeaSkua said:


> Would any commando operation be run by ABWEHR?



No not at all, but the Brandenburger regiment was part of the Abwehr.



> Was Canaris an ALLIED agent?



No, but he supplied the Allies with some information, his goal being assassinating Hitler. Not so strange seeing that Hitler was doing a better job of destroying Germany than the Allies ever could.


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## Glider (Mar 9, 2008)

Soren said:


> Again you're the one who is wrong Emac44,
> 
> The Type IXD2's were running patrols from early 42 till wars end, and their engines weren't refitted.
> 
> ...



I think you will find using Uboat.net that only 5 Type IXD were in commission during 1942. The first patrol taking place in September 1942.

This will give a period of 3 months where Enigma was not broken and the five vessels were available..


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## Soren (Mar 9, 2008)

Glider said:


> I think you will find using Uboat.net that only 5 Type IXD were in commission during 1942. The first patrol taking place in September 1942.
> 
> This will give a period of 3 months where Enigma was not broken and the five vessels were available..



Then how come atleast three boats were on training patrols in Feb 42 ? 

The IXD2 would've been available from Feb 42, so that's a 9½ month window.

Btw, 3 months is way more than would be needed.


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## Glider (Mar 9, 2008)

There is a whole world of difference between training, going through work up and being a front line boat, ask anyone who has served on any naval vessel of any type, in any navy, at any time.


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## Soren (Mar 9, 2008)

The purpose was training the crew for combat in the new boat, not something which would be necessary for a month long transportation mission.

Btw, does anyone have any information as to how well the major Australian cities were covered by radar ?


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## Glider (Mar 9, 2008)

Training is a lot more than that. A new ship needs to be worked in, in particular one that will operate on its own miles from support. There will be problems and these will need to be addressed. In addition the crew needs to blend, different personalities blended or in extreme cases switched out. A submarine is a small boat and nothing can be allowed to fester. 
Everyone is has to learn everyone elses role and this takes time. You have to start with small tasks and build up to simulated war scenarios. Its worth noting that almost every German U Boat would have spent 5 - 6 months from commissioning until its first war patrol. There is a reason for that and the reason is, thats how long it takes.

If you want to short cut that then of course you can, but you are putting yourself in a position where you know better than the professionals of the Navies of the World. 

You are also working on the basis that this mission you are thinking about isn't a combat mission, a huge assumption.


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## Soren (Mar 9, 2008)

Glider,

The boats weren't filled with rookies, so all that jadda jadda about the men having to know their place is pointless.

The boats were mostly given 3-4 months of training, having the crew simulate attacks, perfecting different procedures and assuring everything worked smoothly during an attack, and finally that nothing was wrong with the boat. That was the purpose of the training patrols. Furthermore it wasn't uncommon for boats on training patrols to attack and sink Allied vessels.


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## Glider (Mar 9, 2008)

Soren
It took at least 5 months to get a U Boat ready for this first war patrol, the evidence is there before you. 
As I said you can short cut it, but you are putting yourself ahead of the professionals in the German Navy, who never despite all the pressures they were under, never made that short cut.

As for the experience of the crews there would have been a core of experienced crew members but most would have been rookies. Its inevitable in a service that was growing that fast. Officers would be newly promoted into their new roles and some key petty officers would also be new to their roles.

In other words behind all that _ jadda jadda _ is firm logic. As I said, ask anyone, who has served in any navy, in any vessel and they will confirm that.

Also ask yourself 'why did the Germans need 5 months to get a new Submarine ready for its front line role' if I am so wrong. What did they do in those 5 months, party?


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## Freebird (Mar 9, 2008)

Emac44 said:


> And Soren you may find German Armed Forces during WW2 sexy or supermen. I don't. Your Scenerio has more holes in it then Swiss Cheese and your own stubborness can't visualize you had made errors and miscalculations. And Caneris being one of the lynch pins with Abhwer being unreliable ( which History Proves he was) in a full scale operations. There is a big difference launching a 1 to 5 men Commando Squad on the American Continent to a 150 man operation stretched over 15,000 Sea Miles to a diverse continent on the other side of the world from Germany. Admit it Soren your scenerio is over ambitious





Aussie1001 said:


> Soren you are talking poo.
> you seem to be the only one who thinks it can be managed.
> What is your reply to the fact that the british had cracked the german navel code thanks partly to one of the first computers ever built,_ Colossus _
> how is your german army supposed to get to australia when we already know.
> ...





Soren said:


> Emac44,
> 
> No, I haven't overlooked logistics. The German U-boats could go a very long way before they needed refueling, something which you seem to have missed. Furthermore there were the "milkcows", U-boats dedicated to refuel resupply German U-boats operating a long way from home.
> 
> ...



*Come on everyone, lets not get derisive to others arguments ...*

Soren I think Emac Aussie are right that the 12,000+ miles would make it unlikely that the scenario would work. I agree it would be *possible* to get there on a type IX, but the benefits would be small. Also Feb 42 is too late, to be most effective the teams should be in place on "Pearl" + 1.

*
This is more like the way I think the scenario would work.* The Japanese in July 41 would inform Germany of their intent to attack the Allies in the fall of 41. The Axis powers would consult to see what the most damage, panic discord could be done. The reason that I don't see a *German * attack on Australia is that every type IX would be needed for operation Drumbeat. The Brandenburgers would plan to attack targets on the US Atlantic coast, Caribbean, and possibley also in Western parts of the Indian Ocean. What Germany *could do* is provide a few operatives some intelligence to the Japanese to aid *Japan* in attacking targets in Australia the US pacific coast.

{if I were anticipating the most effective possible Axis strategy}

*The #1 priority of the Axis must be to strangle Allied shipping.* Consider what *five* German U-boats did on the US east coast at the start of Drumbeat {top 80% of subs averaged 39,000 tons} Now if the Axis combined had 125 subs attacking unprotected Allied ports, the total might be over 3 million tons *per month*. Absolutely devastating.

*The purpose of the commando raids would be as "spoiler" attacks, to sow confusion and concern in the Allied command*. The effect would be far worse in the USA than in Australia. The benefit would be for Japan mainly, if they can keep the Australian gov't worried about an invasion it would hamper the defence of N.Guinea Maylasia, which is the object of the exercise. Germany has little to gain from attacking Australia, but much to gain from hitting the USA, as the US is very short of trained troops, aircraft, munitions, everything. The more that a worried US civilian population demands to be kept home for defence are units that won't be sent overseas.

If Australia was like Canada UK there is a shortage of manpower, so having troops building beach defences, patrolling shorelines in OZ is fewer men available for RAAF, RAN etc. The critical time for Japan should be the first 2 months, as an aggressive defence of Maylasia/Singapore could stop the IJA there. *As it turned out* the defence was so disorganized confused that it failed anyways, but as an attacker you couldn't count on that. 

I probably should have put "Allied" instead of "Australia" on the thread title, but Australia was probably in the strongest position, as the population were already concerned about the Japanese menace, and ready to "do what it takes" Canada the USA were quite shocked after Pearl harbour, there was a fair amount of panic after an attack that took place 2,000 miles away.

*The question I guess is would the Aust. govt. be willing to gamble that Japan wouldn't invade and send troops elsewhere?* Because it seems that in the face of such a threat {Japanese commando's seen as advance elements of an invasion} the government might decide to abandon defence of some other islands to concentrate on defending Australia proper. The Japanese might launch a carrier raid on Sydney or the SE coast to further cause panic.


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## Soren (Mar 9, 2008)

Glider said:


> Soren
> It took at least 5 months to get a U Boat ready for this first war patrol, the evidence is there before you.
> As I said you can short cut it, but you are putting yourself ahead of the professionals in the German Navy, who never despite all the pressures they were under, never made that short cut.
> 
> ...



5 months was the standard.

With an experienced crew it wouldn't take 5 months, some training patrols took less than 3 months. And then there were some which took 7 months, and even a year!

Anyway a 3-4 month window is good enough. And as of August 42 there'd be atleast 2 x Type IXD2's available, all that was needed.

Besides it doesn't have to be Type IXD2's which are used, the Type IXC is more than good enough, being capable of travelling both ways with just one stop.


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## Emac44 (Mar 9, 2008)

freebird said:


> *Come on everyone, lets not get derisive to others arguments ...*
> 
> Soren I think Emac Aussie are right that the 12,000+ miles would make it unlikely that the scenario would work. I agree it would be *possible* to get there on a type IX, but the benefits would be small. Also Feb 42 is too late, to be most effective the teams should be in place on "Pearl" + 1.
> 
> ...



I agree Freebird this debate is getting ridiculous and I will not continue it. Soren lets agree to disagree. I am sorry Soren you will not be abled to convince me of your plan succeeding. My references also comes from different sources of the internet. Sorry I forget to include the source
WWII U-Boats
Gruppe Monsun Boats

I suggest you read my last source on Gruppe Monsun Soren and you will see why I question your sources. This was an actual operation done by the Kriegsmarine in the Indian Ocean and the Arabian Gulf. It had limited success. Out of 11 Uboats sent or dispatched only 4 arrived in Penang which also contridicted another source I had gleaned information from which I admit. But Gruppe Monsun took place in late 1943 not 1942 and the operation and logistics was immense. And if you read the article further you will see Soren how difficult the operation was. Your scenerio suggests 1 Uboat. The Kreigsmarine sent 11 UBoats for long distant attacks in the Indian Ocean. So based on your scenerio and based on actual historical events if 11 Uboats had extreme problems reaching the Indian Ocean Arabian Gulf Penang and or Australia. One sole 1xd2 Uboat in your scenerio is going to be in deep **** during 1942

And on further looking into Gruppe Monsun Operations. Of the 1xd2 Submariens were to be used or were used in Operation Monsun Gruppe all of them were sunk U200 1xd2 sunk June 1943 Commander Heinrich Schonder Sth West of Iceland. U847 Commander Friedrick Guggenburger Sunk August 27th 1943 Saggasso Sea. Other problems arose with the 1XC model Submarines arose as well. With German Torpedoes delievered having been effected by the Tropical Enviroment. It appear in 1943 the heat effected the torpedoes delivered from Germany. And these were just a few problems that occured

uboat.net - U-boat Operations- The Monsun U-boats


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## Emac44 (Mar 10, 2008)

Now what I will say Soren. This isn't a personal attack on yourself. Please try and understand my point of view. But my concern about your scenerio with what I see as Swiss Cheese in being set in early 1942 wouldn't have been possible. With the data and historical information from Gruppe Monsun as a guide to this conclusion. Gruppe Monsun Operation was in itself a very large operation to conduct from 1943 to 1945. And your scenerio of just 1 1xd2 Submarine with 75 German Elite Troopers heading to Australia and based on the Gruppe Monsun and the evidence of the data on Gruppe Monsun doesn't match up with your scenerio. And remember if a scenerio is to work or be put forward we still have to rely on actual historical events for the scenerio to be feasable. In this case with Gruppe Monsun events it doesn't . Yes the Japanese did float a proposal to the Germans in 1942 to send UBoats to the Indian Ocena but the German Navy for reasons of their own didn't see this as feasable in 1942. But in late 1942 the German Navy began scouting mission with UBoats to the area of Cape of Good Hope to evaluate later expeditions into the Indian Ocean. From what I can see the Gruppe Monsun Uboat formations entering into the Indian Ocean in late 1943 would be as follows as I see it
1 Tactical attacks on shipping coming from the Arabian Sea viz Suez Canal 
2 Tactical attacks on shipping Indian Ocean with shipping in pre War Conditions which didn't last long 
3 Tactically assist the Japanese in the Indian Ocean Region hampering supplies coming from or too India Australia and New Zealand from or to the European Theatre of War or North Africa or Middle East etc.
4 Trade routes for Axis Naval and Merchant shipping to be established. And transport of materials unavailable or lacking with German or Japanese and Italian War Machine etc. For example Rubber or metals or special munitions or equipment not readily available in great supply either in Germany or Japan and Italy etc. 
5 Military Personal or Governmental Personal exchanges by the Germans Italians or Japanese.
6 Exchange of Submarine Technology Tactics Logistics and any other Military Information between Japan Germany and Italy.
7 Patrolling with Japanese Naval Units the South East Asian area. In particular the waters around Indonesia Malaysia Philippines etc etc. With possible survilence of Australia and New Zealand mainlands if the opportunities arose.
8 Incursions into by Uboats into the Pacific from Naval bases in Malaya Singapore and Sarawak 

So basing my conclusions of actual events I still can't see your scenerio working in 1942. Maybe in 1943 perhaps. But by that stage the 2nd AIF was home from the Middle East and ready to deploy or have been deployed in PNG and US Naval, Marines. Army and AirForce had already increased on the Australian Mainland. And British US and Australian Military Intelligence by late 1943 had knowledge of German UBoats in the South East Asian Theatre to the Arabian Seas and Indian Ocean. US British Dutch and Australian Submarines themselves based in Freemantle Western Australia could and did cause problems for not only Japanese Merchant and Naval Fleets operating in South East Asian Waters but also German and Italian Naval and Merchant Vessels etc. Now I will also draw your attention to HMAS Sydney incident of the Western Australian Coast in 1941. This incidnet alerted the Australian Government and Military of a real threat to Australian Mainland of possible Axis incursions after this incident. So you have to keep that in mind as well Soren. Plus with in early 1942 Australians had always feared a Yellow Peril attack or invasion of the Australian Mainland and in this case in 1942 it was the Japanese and Australians were alerted to this real possiblity of invasion by the Japanese. Air Raids had already taken place in Darwin Northern Territory ,Northern Western Australia and Far North Queensland. And with the Mini Submarine Attacks that had occured in Sydney Harbour added to the apprehension already in Australia. Yes it is feasable to land German Italian or Japanese elements or even small raiding parties in regions of coastal Australia. But remember Soren if you were to launch these raiders just where precisely as most of the Western Australian Coastline for example is uninhabited and was and still is. It to is also hazardous for shipping with a large Barrier Reef similar in size and extent to that of the Coast of Queensland on the East Coast, But unlike Queensland there are literally hundreds of miles of sandy beaches and cliffs that lead back to nothing further inland you go from the Ocean and Coastline. What I mean by nothing is it is desert featureless barren and has extreme variations of heat and weather conditions. And there is particularly no fresh water available or food and these conditons in Western Australia stretch from the Far North borders with the Northern Territory to Perth and this is a distance of 1200 miles along the coast line approximately. There are isolated communities but even attacking those communities with 75 Brandenberg Troops and cutting of communication by those Elite Troops wouldn't have caused much concern to the Australian People. As often these communities even today are cut of by weather conditions like Cyclones (Hurricanes) Floods when it does rain or other prevailing reasons that effect the Western Australian area. In actual fact Soren given that what I have just explained to you would see your Scenerio fail to impact on the Australian Government or its Population under the guidelines of the Scenerio Freebird had put down originally. Western Australia for your scenerio would be the logical point to attack. Maybe Darwin in a pinch but remember Darwin was on full alert by 1942 after the Japanese Aerial Attacks in 1942. Which leads me also to recall the Aerial Attacks on Broome in Western Australia it too was on full alert after Aerial Attacks there. Ok Gulf of Carpenteria between Northern Territory and Queensland Far Northern Australia. Again similar to Western Australia as it to is isolated but by 1942 with impending threats from PNG and Coral Sea along with the Far North Queensland Eastern Coast was alerted to possible attacks by the Japanese and remember Soren if these attacks had or were to occur the Australian Government Population and Military were already prepared to fall back to what was known as the Brisbane Line. The Australian Government Population and Military was prepared to cut and burn and leave a waste land to any invasion of the continent. Which meant nothing of value of use or significance was to be left to the enemy. Which meant any invasion of Australia was to inherit a waste land. So Soren your scenerio then meets this criteria that the Australians were quiet prepared to sacrifice parts of Australia and leave your scenerio with literally no Military or Propaganda Victory of significance as such. This is what Aussie was trying to explain to you but we got of on other tangents Soren.


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## Aussie1001 (Mar 10, 2008)

Thanks Emac you clarified that quite well, good post.


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## Emac44 (Mar 10, 2008)

What we are trying to explain to you Soren even if the Japanese had invaded or your scenerio took place with the idea by Australians at the time was this. The Australian People and Government were prepared to sacrifice 75% of the continent and withdraw to the Brisbane Line. Which stretched just North of Brisbane in Queensland to Whylla South Australia. Anything North and West of the Brisbane Line which included all of the Northern Territory and Western Australia including Perth. Nearly all of Queensland would be left to an invading Army but that Army would inherit burnt destroyed wasteland. The idea is similar to what the USSR was doing in Russia with the invading Axis Forces in that campaign. And remember the great expanses of this country takes years to accommodate to. 2/3rds of Australia Soren is desert. If the enviroment doesn't kill you lack of water food and other logisitcs have to be brought here to Australia. As the Australians were quiet prepared to leave you nothing of value. And Soren this mentality still exsist today. Even with Indonesia. We still have what you would imagine as the Alamo Mentality or the Last Bastion. This isn't a scenerio basis Soren this in Australia is reality. And it was reality even in 1942 or since 1788 of First European Settlement in Australia.

So going by what Freebird had asked how would Australian Public Opinion guage and or 
1 Invading Forces
2 Commando style type raid German or Japanese

And I noted Freebird used Brisbane Queensland as the attack point in his scenerio. As Brisbane was the furtherest most Northern City based on the Brisbane Line. Public Opinion would or could be as such
1 Precursor to invasion. Maybe???????
2 Govermnet and Population have already plans to evacuate Northern Parts of Australia, And massive mustering of livestock sheep and cattle were already being driven down from Northern Australia below the Brisbane Line. As soon as Japanese had attacked Hawaii Philippines Malaya and Dutch East Indies evacuation were taking place in Australia. And what couldn't be moved or not was abled too would be destroyed
3 Population since 1788 has already the prospect of attacks by outside powers or foriegn forces. These Foriegn Forces included Soren, China (ASIAN) France Japan and Russia since 1788 to 1942. It is still like that today Soren in the minds of the Australian Public.

So basically as Freebird is wondering or proposing in his scenerio how would this effect Australian Public Opinion or the Government if an attack took place. Either your scenerio or Freebirds? We Australians are already accustomed to it. So basically what we Australians are telling your Soren on the basis of Public or Government Opinion based on this scenerio wouldn't have the desired effect as you imagine it would if the scenerio was based on the USA East and West Coast. If the Japanese had attacked West Coast of the USA and co-ordinated an attack with Germans on East Coast of USA etc. So basically Soren what we are trying to tell you and Freebird has touched on is Australian Population Mentality compared to USA Population Mentality in this scenerios. Now do you understand Soren?


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## Soren (Mar 11, 2008)

I'm glad you cooled down Emac44, now we can have a sensible discussion.

However again Emac44 you haven't been reading what I wrote.

This isn't an invasion we're talking about Emac44, so the Australians wouldn't have to give up any land or retreat etc etc. The operation is a sabateur/guerilla attack, harrassing the Australian military civilian population, hiding then striking, then hiding again, infiltrating the Australian population and then attacking.

The scenario is very possible in 1942, the German naval code being unbroken and the KM subs frequently running successful patrols along the US coast, which was far more dangerous than running along the Australian coast. Besides it's not even a patrolling mission, just a drop off, so there'll be no hanging around or engaging ships.

As for the Australian mentality, well you're not super humans down there my friend, and you'd be pissing your pants just as much as the US citizens would if faced with such an attack. (And this is not a personal attack as any population would act like that) If the attack was carried out like I suggested the civilian population would be scared witless, which is the main purpose of the operation. Furthermore a massive manhunt will be engaged by the Australian government, with masses of checkpoints having to be set up, occupying allot of the Australian military. And the complete destruction of the military convoy will also have a very sobering effect on the Australian military personnel, quite a few soldiers undoubtedly would've had chills down their spines when they were told what they had to hunt down and what they had achieved.


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## pbfoot (Mar 11, 2008)

I think a massive manhunt wouldn't be necessary , some of the best human trackers of men live in Australia and then just pulerverize the Brandenburgers with obsolete Boomerangs . You wouldn't even need trackers the poor guys after 3 months on a sub would be so pale from lack of sunlight they'd stick out like like albinos at an NCAAP meeting
 They would be cursing the clowns that sent them on this suicide mission . They would not have the resources to perform more then a Dieppe type assualt 24hrs at the most.


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## Soren (Mar 11, 2008)

You've got to be kidding me Pbfoot!

The aboriginals are great trackers alright, and experts at surviving in the bush, but stacking them up against elite soldiers expertedly trained in every type of warfare imaginable, well that is just plain suicide. It would be endlessly simple and easy to lure the trackers into an ambush. The trackers would follow a trail out into the open and bang, they're mowed down by machinegun fire.

And come on, a boomerang ? Good for killing Koalas and such in trees but I'd like to see how effective it is beyond 50m.


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## pbfoot (Mar 11, 2008)

Soren said:


> You've got to be kidding me Pbfoot!
> 
> The aboriginals are great trackers alright, and experts at surviving in the bush, but stacking them up against elite soldiers expertedly trained in every type of warfare imaginable, well that is just plain suicide. It would be endlessly simple and easy to lure the trackers into an ambush. The trackers would follow a trail out into the open and bang, they're mowed down by machinegun fire.
> 
> And come on, a boomerang ? Good for killing Koalas and such in trees but I'd like to see how effective it is beyond 50m.


serious as can be those pasty white bodies would just stand out so much .


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## Soren (Mar 11, 2008)

Funny how the westerners managed to stay on Australian soil over a hundred years earlier then, and weren't driven back by the fearsome aboriginals  

The aboriginals are experts at surviving in the bush and they are expert trackers, BUT, that's it. So as much as I do admire the aboriginals and their knowledge of their surroundings, they'd be deadmeat against the fully armed trained German soldier of WW2.

I mean lets be realistic here Pbfoot, what are they gonna do with their bow arrows, boomerangs and spears against troops wielding machineguns with an effective range of over 3½ km and a 900 - 1,500 rpm rate of fire ?


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## pbfoot (Mar 11, 2008)

Soren said:


> Funny how the westerners managed to stay on Australian soil over a hundred years earlier then, and weren't driven back by the fearsome aboriginals
> 
> The aboriginals are experts at surviving in the bush and they are expert trackers, BUT, that's it. So as much as I do admire the aboriginals and their knowledge of their surroundings, they'd be deadmeat against the fully armed trained German soldier of WW2.
> 
> I mean lets be realistic here Pbfoot, what are they gonna do with their bow arrows, boomerangs and spears against troops wielding machineguns with an effective range of over 3½ km and a 900 - 1,500 rpm rate of fire ?


I bet you they could manage a radio to point the Boomerangs in , I'm not saying to use them as a fighting force


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## Aussie1001 (Mar 11, 2008)

"And come on, a boomerang ? Good for killing Koalas and such in trees but I'd like to see how effective it is beyond 50m."

Extremely effective if you want i get an Abo tell him that you are a hard core KKK member put you 60m away from him and give him a boomerang, for your information there are several types of boomerang, there is the type that returns and is used for killing animals and there is the war boomerang which does not return.

Having said that i do concede they would be no match for germans but as Pb said they would not be feeling too well after 2 months at sea.


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## Soren (Mar 11, 2008)

*Pbfoot,*

Don't you understand that they'd be shot before hey could ever make a transmission ? Furthermore the German commandoes would be split up in small teams after their first attack, scattered, making it very hard to track any of them down, even with the help of the aboriginals.

Oh, and one more thing, wearing uniforms which blend in with the inviroment and being experts in camouflage and concealment the German commandos wouldn't be easy to spot, even for the aboriginals.

*Aussie,*

Did you just call me a racist ?

As for the boomerangs, I know about the different types, but tell me what good is it against an elite soldier with a full auto rifle at 50m and beyond ?

For your information 50m is a long way for a boomerang, and it will not be very accurate that range. Furthermore the guy you're throwing this piece of wood at is wearing a steel helmet, so there's no cracking a skull. 

Also in the time it takes the aboriginal to prepare, aim and throw his boomerang the German soldier will have already sent a stream of bullets his way.


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## pbfoot (Mar 11, 2008)

I was talking about the native guys doing the tracking and using the radio to call in the CAC Boomerang ,


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## Wildcat (Mar 11, 2008)

Soren said:


> Don't you understand that they'd be shot before hey could ever make a transmission ? Furthermore the German commandoes would be split up in small teams after their first attack, scattered, making it very hard to track any of them down, even with the help of the aboriginals.


Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders were used in WWII as a recon and surveilance force. They wouldn't have to engage the commandos, simply track them down and radio their position. I don't care how elite the Germans were, in the Australian bush they would easily be tracked down by the aborigines. I highly doubt anyone could successfully cover all their tracks, especially if they're hauling around heavy weapons or driving through the bush in trucks.





Soren said:


> Oh, and one more thing, wearing uniforms which blend in with the inviroment and being experts in camouflage and concealment the German commandos wouldn't be easy to spot, even for the aboriginals.


Their camo uniforms might be great for Europe but would stand out like dog balls in the Australian bush. Their concealment skills aren't going to help either, as their "tracks" will lead the aboriginals straight to them.




Soren said:


> As for the boomerangs, I know about the different types, but tell me what good is it against an elite soldier with a full auto rifle at 50m and beyond ?
> 
> For your information 50m is a long way for a boomerang, and it will not be very accurate that range. Furthermore the guy you're throwing this piece of wood at is wearing a steel helmet, so there's no cracking a skull.
> 
> Also in the time it takes the aboriginal to prepare, aim and throw his boomerang the German soldier will have already sent a stream of bullets his way.



Agreed, however if the aboriginals were to be used to engage the enemy, it would be in guerrilla type warfare, not stand in the open and throw a boomerang at them. They would simply appear out of the bush, kill one or two at a time with spears and then melt back into the landscape. If they can do this to animals, what chance has a human got?


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## Emac44 (Mar 11, 2008)

Soren you have it all wrong again. I tried to explain to you that the Elite German Force or Japanese would be seen for what it is.. I tried to explain to you what the Australian PUBLIC OPINION was at the time. But you being an AMERICAN Can't seem to get the idea into your head. The Fact is once again your SCENERIO INVOLVING THE German Navy which you would had used to transport your Elite German Troops to Australia wasn't going to be available. And the information I supplied came from the very same website you used Uboat.net and Operations of Uboats. The Germany Navy was asked by the Japanese if they would consider operations in the Indian Ocean Region 1942. THE GERMAN NAVY DECIDED NOT TO UNTIL 1943. AND THIS IS HISTORICAL FACT WHICH YOU CONSTANTLY SEEM TO IGNORE. AND SEEING THE KRIEGSMARINE WASN'T GOING TO SEND SUBMARINES TO THE INDIAN OCEAN UNTIL 1943 YOUR SCENERIO IN 1942 IS NOW A NON EVENT, WHICH INCLUDES YOUR BRANDENBERG ELITE TROOPERS NOT BEING ABLED TO TRAVEL TO AUSTRALIA IN 1942 BY SUBMARINE. You expect others to read your website information but discount other information given to you.

You just don't seem to understand the Australian Mentality at all in 1942 and I suspect you didn't even bother to read about the Operation of Gruppe Monsun by the Kriegsmarine into the Indian Ocean. If as documented by UBoat.net is precise and accurate that puts questions towards your scenerio you have failed to answer. It puts your whole scenerio into question once more Soren. You wanted websites on information you got it Soren 

uboat.net - U-boat Operations- The Monsun U-boats

And as far as I am concerned the Gruppe Monsun Uboats Operations is the best guide for any scenerio into the Indian or Pacific Oceans during World War 2. As I said I am no further going to debate this ridiculous scenerio as it appears Soren has got himself into an area he is trying desperately to defend and is contridicted by actual historical events that actually occured during 1943 to 1945 with Gruppe Monsun and Kriegmarine Operations in the Indian Ocean in World War 2 and the Indian Ocean Uboat Forces deployed during that time 1943 to 1945. The singular fact is the Kriegmarine in 1942 decided it was not tenable to send UBoats to the Indian Ocean until after the Monsoon Periods had expired in the Indian Ocean in 1943. Between 12 to 18 months after which Soren's Scenerio is to take place. One has to rely on what the Kriegsmarine in World War 2 thought was possible. Simple as NO SUBMARINE BY ORDERS OF THE KRIEGMARINE IN 1942 NO BRANDENBERG TROOPS IN THIS SCENERIO. IN 1943 YES POSSIBLE AS PER EXAMPLE OF GRUPPE MONSUN BUT THIS THEN WOULD HAVE A WHOLE DIFFERENT SCENERIO BASIS


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## Soren (Mar 11, 2008)

Wildcat said:


> Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders were used in WWII as a recon and surveilance force. They wouldn't have to engage the commandos, simply track them down and radio their position. I don't care how elite the Germans were, in the Australian bush they would easily be tracked down by the aborigines. I highly doubt anyone could successfully cover all their tracks, especially if they're hauling around heavy weapons or driving through the bush in trucks.



The heavy equipment wouldn't be hauled into the bush, it would either be dug down or hidden somewhere.

As for the Aboriginals tracking the Commandos down easily, that's hardly so. Like I said the commandos would be split up in small teams, some on foot others by car/truck.



> Their camo uniforms might be great for Europe but would stand out like dog balls in the Australian bush.



You don't know allot of German uniforms do you ?

You don't seriously believe they would go to Australia with European style camo uniforms do you ? Did they do that in Africa ?

The German army had camo uniforms for every season at every inviroment on earth. Infact I'd imagine the uniform to be used in Australia would be the double sided desert/vegetation camo uniform used in Africa.



> Their concealment skills aren't going to help either, as their "tracks" will lead the aboriginals straight to them.



Well the tracks are only helpful in telling you which way what you're trying catch went, it doesn't tell you where it is, which is the dangerous part.

Say the Aboriginals tracks down one of the two man teams, they follow the tracks. The Commandos however make usual stops to make sure their not being followed. At one point the Commandos will spot the ones who are trying to track them down, and when they do they'll know exactly what to do. The tactic is simple, lead your enemies into the open, and once they're there you pick them off one by one from long range. 



> Agreed, however if the aboriginals were to be used to engage the enemy, it would be in guerrilla type warfare, not stand in the open and throw a boomerang at them. They would simply appear out of the bush, kill one or two at a time with spears and then melt back into the landscape. If they can do this to animals, what chance has a human got?



That's a suicide mission against men wielding fully automatic rifles which can shoot through meter thick trees. 

Also how are you to sneak up on them? First of all you have to track them to even get any idea of where they're going. Next you gotta be careful you've not been spotted whilst trying to find tracks, as an ambush might then very well be waiting right around the corner. And trust me, you don't wanna be ambushed by experts with machineguns.


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## Soren (Mar 11, 2008)

Emac44,

Just because the KM decided not to involve forces in the indian ocean until 43 doesn't in any way mean they couldn't send boats to Australia. The decision which was made was not to start sending masses of boats to this area, that's all.

And as for the Australian mentality, again you're not supermen, you're just like everyone else; scared witless in the event of such an attack. 


And finally, I'm not an American.


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## Aussie1001 (Mar 11, 2008)

I dont care if you are german what you are proposing makes as much sense as building a hamster powered car.
And no i wasn't calling you racist.
1 more thing every scenerio you are proposing is seems that the germans know they are being followed, i doubt this would be the case unless they are all skitzofrenic. for example wildcat said that they would pick them off 1 at a time.
Can you imagine the horror of being in a strange place that you have never been to before and the added confusion of having your mates dissapering one at a time, sure you might try to lure them into a trap, but the aborigingals having 50 + thousand years tracking, hunting and killing animals might just catch onto that.
Remember german elite troops have been in Australia for what 6 weeks max, Aborigingals have been here 50 000 years plus.
As emac said you plan has got more holes than swiss cheese.
If you still think that you are right take note that on a forum dedicated to WW2 no one is agreeing with you.


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## Aussie1001 (Mar 11, 2008)

Soren said:


> And as for the Australian mentality, again you're not supermen, you're just like everyone else; scared witless in the event of such an attack.
> 
> 
> And finally, I'm a moron.



You mean superhuman like your german elite ?


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## Aussie1001 (Mar 11, 2008)

Sorry for reverting to crude humour i'm just angry at your crappy excuse for a battle plan


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## Soren (Mar 12, 2008)

Nothing crappy about the plan Aussie, only your understanding of it. 

As for no'one agreeing with me, well tell me how do you know that ?? Not many have been involving themselves in this discussion at all.

You've only demonstrated that you're clueless Aussie, trying to compare animals with Humans. Well here's a news flash for you: Humans aren't easy to hunt down, esp. not when they're highly trained military professionals.

And as to the Germans being superhumans, now where the heck did that come from??! First I'm accused of being a stupid American then a Nazi! Such blatant accusations usually only come from someone who's run out of sensible arguments.

And as to your rude remarks, well you see kid calling others morons just doesn't get you anywhere, esp. in a place like this. So for you own sake, stop it. 

Oh and finally, I'm not German either.


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## Emac44 (Mar 12, 2008)

Soren said:


> Emac44,
> 
> Just because the KM decided not to involve forces in the indian ocean until 43 doesn't in any way mean they couldn't send boats to Australia. The decision which was made was not to start sending masses of boats to this area, that's all.
> 
> ...



Well I apologise to the Americans then Soren. But if the Kriegsmarine in 1942 decided not to send UBoats to the Indian Ocean in 1942 reflects upon your scenerio. YES or NO? To ignore the Kriegsmarine as a vital part in your scenerio means you are ignoring the very transportation your ELITE GERMAN TROOPS NEED for your scenerio to work. No one has said Australians are Supermen but I doubt very much that Brandenberg Elite Troops laden with tons of equipment without Kriegsmarine Uboats to convey them can swim 15,000 Sea Miles to Australia in 1942. WHAT PART OF THIS AREN'T YOU GETTING SOREN. YOU BASE SCENERIOS ON HISTORICAL EVENTS. THE HISTORICAL EVENTS FOR THE KRIEGSMARINE DOESN'T ADD UP TO YOUR SCENERIO. NO UBOATS FOR REASONS OF THE KRIEGSMARINE IN 1942 MEANS ONE THING. NO ATTACK AND YOUR SCENERIO IS NOW A NON EVENT


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## Emac44 (Mar 12, 2008)

Soren said:


> Nothing crappy about the plan Aussie, only your understanding of it.
> 
> As for no'one agreeing with me, well tell me how do you know that ?? Not many have been involving themselves in this discussion at all.
> 
> ...


Don't you dare call any one clueless Soren. There is no need for that. Yes I made the assumption you was an American stupid or otherwise. You read into my comment as you being an American as you being stupid. That was your own understanding of my post which you read into it. So no one offended you by your nationality. Now I read you referring to Aussie 101 as a clueless Aussie and he has the right to disagree with you. But your scenerio keeps falling down and often. You proposed a scenerio and we have picked holes in it. Which is our right to do just as you have the right to proposed the scenerio in the first place. I suggest as the kids say today Soren. You need to take a CHILL PILL. I think Soren you need to apologise to Aussie and him the same to you.

But what is coming out loud and clear from you Soren. You don't like having your ground rules changed or challenged by others. Its about time that you Soren begin to see your own shortcomings in this debate. Most on this forum will try to agree to disagree and try and see it from some one elses viewpoint. But you have not even attempted at any stage during this whole debate even remotely considered you maybe wrong or you maybe in error. And what is so comical by your replies concerning Australia you assume that WE AUSTRALIANS DON'T KNOW OUR OWN COUNTRY AND THAT ANY GERMAN ELITE TROOPS COULD EVADE AUSTRALIAN MILITARY IN OUR OWN BACK YARD. SO ACCORDING TO YOU SOREN ALL THE ALLIES WERE HOPELESS AND IT WAS GERMANY WHO WON WORLD WAR 2 SINGLE HANDED BY USING THE BRANDENBERG ELITE COMMANDO TROOPS


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## Graeme (Mar 12, 2008)

Soren said:


> Not many have been involving themselves in this discussion at all.



I guess the thing is that when the 'discussion' starts to turn ugly, most people tend not to participate.

Some 'discussions' can get way out of hand. This happened one hours drive East of where I live...of course alcohol was involved!

"_A FRUIT-picking trip to southern New South Wales ended in the death of a Scottish backpacker who became embroiled in a bizarre row about creationism and evolution._"

Evolution vs creation row ends in stabbing | The Australian


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## Freebird (Mar 12, 2008)

Graeme said:


> Graeme said:
> 
> 
> > I guess the thing is that when the 'discussion' starts to turns ugly, most people tend not to participate.
> ...


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## Graeme (Mar 12, 2008)

But remember, Darwin then had a population of approximately 2000 people. 
_
"The response,

In the hours following the air raids on 19 February, believing that an invasion was imminent, Darwin's population began to stream southwards, heading for Adelaide River and the train south. Approximately half Darwin's civilian population ultimately fled. *The panic in the town was repeated at the RAAF base, where servicemen deserted their stations in great numbers. Three days after the attack 278 servicemen were still missing.* The exodus south (which later became known as 'The Adelaide River stakes'), and the looting and disorder which subsequently occurred, led the government to hurriedly appoint a Commission of Inquiry led by Mr Justice Lowe which issued two reports, one on 27 March and the other on 9 April 1942."
_

Fact sheets - National Archives of Australia

Australian Travel - Northern Territory - History of Darwin


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## Soren (Mar 12, 2008)

Emac44 said:


> Well I apologise to the Americans then Soren. But if the Kriegsmarine in 1942 decided not to send UBoats to the Indian Ocean in 1942 reflects upon your scenerio. YES or NO? To ignore the Kriegsmarine as a vital part in your scenerio means you are ignoring the very transportation your ELITE GERMAN TROOPS NEED for your scenerio to work. No one has said Australians are Supermen but I doubt very much that Brandenberg Elite Troops laden with tons of equipment without Kriegsmarine Uboats to convey them can swim 15,000 Sea Miles to Australia in 1942. WHAT PART OF THIS AREN'T YOU GETTING SOREN. YOU BASE SCENERIOS ON HISTORICAL EVENTS. THE HISTORICAL EVENTS FOR THE KRIEGSMARINE DOESN'T ADD UP TO YOUR SCENERIO. NO UBOATS FOR REASONS OF THE KRIEGSMARINE IN 1942 MEANS ONE THING. NO ATTACK AND YOUR SCENERIO IS NOW A NON EVENT



And what part of JUST BECAUSE THE KM DECIDED NOT SEND MASSES OF SUBS TO THE INDIAN OCEAN IN 42 DOESN'T IN ANY WAY MEAN THEY COULDN'T RUN PATROLS THERE dont you understand Emac44 ?

Remember this a hypothetical scenario of what could be done, and one thing is for certain, the KM boats could go to the Indian Ocean when'ever they wanted.

Your argument just simply doesn't hold any water Emac44, cause what you're suggesting is the same as saying "_the man walked right so he couldn't have walked left if he had or wanted to_". Seriously does that make any sense to you ??

As for Aussie1001, I definitely don't owe him any apology! If you look back clueless is what I've called him, I didn't follow his example and called him a moron, there's a HUGE difference!

Oh, and I never claimed that you Aussies didn't know yor back yard, ofcourse you do, but that doesn't mean the Germans don't know it either.


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## Soren (Mar 12, 2008)

Freebird,

I know what you mean, I am just merely elaborating on what was possible.

The best use of the Brandenburgers would ofcourse be against the US, while the Japanese would be used against Australia. I just doubt how successful a Japanese operation will be, it's not like an Asian guy blends in very well with the Australian public if you know what I mean  The only real effective thing to do for the Japanese was use suicide bombers ofcourse, which also undoubtedly would scare he sh*t out of anyone.


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## Emac44 (Mar 12, 2008)

Soren said:


> And what part of JUST BECAUSE THE KM DECIDED NOT SEND MASSES OF SUBS TO THE INDIAN OCEAN IN 42 DOESN'T IN ANY WAY MEAN THEY COULDN'T RUN PATROLS THERE dont you understand Emac44 ?
> 
> Remember this a hypothetical scenario of what could be done, and one thing is for certain, the KM boats could go to the Indian Ocean when'ever they wanted.
> 
> ...



Soren I deal in factual not hypothetical. I can understand that you wish to examine a hypothetical area. But you are forgetting that even in hypothetical it has to match to reality at times and has to match to historical. Plainly the Kriegmarine decided in 1942 that it wasn't profitable to send any UBoat to the Indian Ocean. Even when and after the Japanese suggested this same idea to the Kriegmarine in 1942. And there is no denying this or trying to come up with an alternative. The only person who believes my arguements against your scenerio doesn't hold water is yourself Soren. And not only myself but several others have picked holes in your scenerio. Soren I suggest you examine why your scenerio is faulty before you type a response to this post. 

And as this is hypothetical as you are suggesting Soren. Then here is a hypothetical for you. 

1 Kriegsmarine Naval Codes rebroken in January 1942
2 Abwehr infilitarted by Allies MI6. MI6 places agents to work alongside Caneris 
3 Caneris relays all forthcoming Abwehr infiltration missions of importance to the MI6 operating in Madrid Spain.
4 German Submarine Pens raided by British Commandos and assited by French and Norwegian Resistance in last week of January 1942. Effectively crippling German Submarine movements from French and Norwegian Coast and Harbours
5 SS and SD absorb Abwehr into their organisations (this actually occured in 1944 after the assasination attempt on Hitler)
6 Kriegsmarine Uboat sorties into the Cape of Good Hope of South Africa in late 1942 fail as Kriegsmarine codes already broken earlier in the year were used and Allies are well aware of the rendevous points for Uboats in this area
7 Incusions into the Indian Ocean by the Kriegsmarine delayed until 1944 due to operational failures in the above sentence 
8 Monsoonial Weather in Indian Ocean becomes extreme with frequent cyclones and typhoons concurrent and effects all types of shipping
9 Australian AIF return to Australia. 6th and 7th Divisions arrive in Western Australia after North African and Middle East Desert Campaings. Western Australian Regiments many of whom are experienced Bushmen from Western Australia bolster current defense positions near and around Perth and Freemantle 
10 US Dutch Australian and British Naval units arrive in Freemantle
11 Two Squadrons 1 of RAAF and 1 of US Army AirForce figthers. Stationed near Geraldton. With further Desert Airstrips in Tindal Northern Territory coming into operations with Fighter Squadrons being deployed to repel and intercept Japanese air attacks 
12 Coast Watchers in the Indonesian Islands and Australian AIF in Timor receive up to date radio equipment prior to the Japanese arrival in thoise areas

Now as for Aussie you both need to apologise to each other Soren for allowing yourselves to get overheated in this debate. And at no time did I refer to you as being STUPID. That you imagined yourself. I made the assumption that you was from the USA as I was certain I had seen a US Flag on your avtars and banners. How you got that I was referring to you as 1 Being Stupid and 2 Being a STUPID AMERICAN I have no idea. I don't insult people by their nationality Soren. Nor did I refer to you as a NAZI. I have no idea where you came up with that.

Now as for Australians knowing our own territory that is correct Soren we do. But to give you something to think about even by 1942 there were large tracts of land that even after 150 yrs of the Whiteman being here in Australia (1788 to 1942) was unexplored or no Whiteman had set foot on or been to particularly in Western Australia. So again unfortunately it isn't likely that German Troops would have detailed information on those areas when maps of the area didn't exsist until well after World War 2 Or the areas had been explored indepth. Guaranteed Soren any one venturing into those areas even in modern times takes risks and their lives into their own hands. It is that isolated and extreme. Even the Aborigines avoid by choice those areas in Western Australia. And what I had already explained to you Soren even if your scenerio was to take place attacking isolated communities on the Western Australian Coast would be pointless under the guidelines of Freebirds Scenerio. As no one would know for weeks or even months. Communications in 1942 to those areas was poor to say the very least. And was interrupted regularly.


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## Freebird (Mar 12, 2008)

Emac44 said:


> Soren I deal in factual not hypothetical. I can understand that you wish to examine a hypothetical area. But you are forgetting that even in hypothetical it has to match to reality at times and has to match to historical.
> 
> Now as for Aussie you both need to apologise to each other Soren for allowing yourselves to get overheated in this debate. And at no time did I refer to you as being STUPID. That you imagined yourself. I made the assumption that you was from the USA as I was certain I had seen a US Flag on your avtars and banners. How you got that I was referring to you as 1 Being Stupid and 2 Being a STUPID AMERICAN I have no idea. I don't insult people by their nationality Soren. Nor did I refer to you as a NAZI. I have no idea where you came up with that..



Well said Emac, when dealing with "hypothetical" we have to deal with facts to make comparisons, otherwise it's just posturing. 

I agree with your point about isolated areas, to be truly effective they would need to make sure the general population knows about it.

Perhaps the best help that Germany could give to Japan is advice on how to influence public opinion in a democracy, something that Japan did not really comprehend, and which Germany was proving to be masters at.


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## Soren (Mar 12, 2008)

I deal with the facts Emac44, as knowing what DID happen is crucial if you want to know what COULD'VE happened, i.e. what was possible.

What you need to understand Emac44, is that because the KM decided not to have masses of U-boats run patrols in the Indian Ocean in 42 has absolutely nothing to do with their ability to do this or transport stuff to, from or through the the Indian Ocean. In 44 the KM U-boats weren't running patrols along the US coast anymore, yet they still successfully transported landed agents on US soil. And that's fact Emac.

Fact is also that the Abwehr was never infiltrated. Now while Canaris was doing what he could to get rid of Hitler, supplying the Allies with information of Hitler's where'abouts and such (in a hope that he would be assassinated), Canaris NEVER supplied the Allies with any info on any operation of the Abwehr. All Canaris wanted was getting rid of Hitler, other than that he wanted to win the war just as much as any other German. 

Also a fact is that the German naval code was unbroken from Feb 1942 till Dec 1942. 

As to yor points about areas of Australia being without detailed maps, well ofcourse it would be risky for the Germans to go to these far outskirts, but 1.) Why should they do that? What would be the purpose of doing such? 2.) You're forgetting that it would be equally risky for the Aussies to venture into these areas.


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## Freebird (Mar 12, 2008)

Soren said:


> *Fact is also that the Abwehr was never infiltrated.* Now while Canaris was doing what he could to get rid of Hitler, supplying the Allies with information of Hitler's where'abouts and such (in a hope that he would be assassinated), Canaris NEVER supplied the Allies with any info on any operation of the Abwehr. All Canaris wanted was getting rid of Hitler, other than that he wanted to win the war just as much as any other German.
> 
> Also a fact is that the German naval code was unbroken from Feb 1942 till Dec 1942.
> .



Do you have any information about German commando operations outside of continental Europe? {or British operations *inside *Europe} Would they normally be given instructions only once and then set out on their own command? Or would they keep in contact every week or month? It seems like this was one of the weaknesses of the U-boat operations, the need to radio in to HQ, which usually gave away too much info.


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## Soren (Mar 12, 2008)

The Brandenburgers performed operations in Africa, much like the SAS.

As for radio transmissions, well plans were never transmitted uncoded. The Enigma machine was the main communications tool when talking about or dealing out missions.


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## Emac44 (Mar 12, 2008)

Soren said:


> I deal with the facts Emac44, as knowing what DID happen is crucial if you want to know what COULD'VE happened, i.e. what was possible. (AND THE SCENERIO I PUT UP SOREN WAS POSSIBLE AS WELL. THERE ARE NO RIGHT OR WRONGS IN A SCENERIO BUT REMEMBER IN THE SCENERIO THERE IS COUNTERING PROBLEMS IN THE SCENERIO. THIS IS WHAT SOME OF US ARE TRYING TO SAY TO YOU SOREN)
> 
> What you need to understand Emac44, is that because the KM decided not to have masses of U-boats run patrols in the Indian Ocean in 42 has absolutely nothing to do with their ability to do this or transport stuff to, from or through the the Indian Ocean. In 44 the KM U-boats weren't running patrols along the US coast anymore, yet they still successfully transported landed agents on US soil. And that's fact Emac. (SOREN I AM NOT DOUBTING THAT THE KRIEGSMARINE TRANSPORTED AGENTS TO THE USA BY SUBMARINE. BUT BARING IN MIND ALSO THAT EVERY 1XD2 UBOAT SENT TO THE INDIAN OCEAN IN GRUPPE MONSUN WAS SUNK. THE VERY UBOAT TYPE YOU HAD ENVISIONED IN YOUR SCENERIO FOR 1942)
> 
> ...


 (YES BUT WE WOULD BE IN OUR OWN COUNTRY THE GERMANS WOULDN'T BE)

This is what you are failing to see Soren. I know its a hypothetical and as such it is fictious in the main. I do know that Soren. However I will still claim we have to in this case rely on the factual. What the Kriegsmarine actually did to what you are proposing. I know the Kriegsmarine sent Surface Raiders into the Indian Ocean from 1939 to 1941. But this wasn't exploited to a greater degree by the Kriegsmarine. And again it would be that the Germans concentrated in the Atlantic

And as it is a hypothetical scenerio for each and every part of the scenerio is a counter part to your scenerio that is being put back to you as the reasons why your hypothetical scenerio would have problems in succeeding. This is what I am trying to express to you 

For example. In your hypothetical Brandenberg Troops land in or around Broome Western Australia. But upon landing they find their ammunition has been effected by heat conditions and seepage of diesel oil inside the Submarine. Rendering their ammunition in-effective and useless. That is the hypothetical. But seeing we have to deal in reality and factual in the scenerio guided by what problems occured with Kriegsmarine in the Indian Ocean from 1943 to 1945 Gruppe Monsun Operation one has to be aware of that as well.
NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT SOME OF US ARE TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO YOU SOREN. 
FOR EVERY SCENERIO YOU CAN DEVISE OTHERS CAN COUNTER IT WITHIN THE SCENERIO

AND OUT OF GENERAL INTEREST SOREN. IN WHICH COUNTRY DO YOU ACTUALLY LIVE IN OR COME FROM. THIS ISN'T A SLIGHT AGAINST YOU BUT JUST INTERESTED THAT IS ALL


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## Aussie1001 (Mar 12, 2008)

Fine i apoligize for calling him a moron...
but i do not take back what other things i said.


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## Emac44 (Mar 15, 2008)

International Intelligence History Association
BBC - History - Double Cross - MI5 in World War Two
MI5 | 4 September 2007 releases: German intelligence agents and suspected agents

Above are some links I have found concerning Abwehr during World War 2. Soren contends that Abwehr was never penetrated comprimised or their operations during World War 2 were always successful. This maybe true in Soren's eyes but unfortunately Soren would be pretending this is a perfect world. This is a falsehood by any means. Yes Abwehr did have spectacular successes during World War 2 until it was absorbed into the SD and SS Gestapo Intelligence Wing after the attempted assasination of Hitler.

Abwehr did have spectacular successes in Holland. Capture of 2 British MI6 Agents. And Abwehr succeeded in penetrating French Resistenace Movement in France during the early occupation years by the Germans in France. 

Abwehr also suceeded in placing agents in MI6 and Sabotage work in the USA. But Abwehr also had glaring failures and the above links prove that Abwehr like any Intelligence Network Organisation had failures. Failures such as 13 Abwehr Agents being hanged in Britian during World War 2. Abwehr Agents upon being captured in Britian all but one turned into double agents (One Abwehr Agent commiting suicide). 

But Abwehr had its communication Centre in Paris bugged by the French Resistence late in 1943. Abwehr had Code Books captured by the British Intelligence Services. British Intelligence turned all but one of Abwehr Agents in Britian to be double agents. Suspicions are that Abwehr may have known about these former Abwehr Agents now double crossing Abwehr but it appears it maybe speculation. But what is known these turned Abwehr Agents working for British Intelligence. Provided the Germans with false information from 1941 to 1945. This included false information fed to Abwehr on the proposed invasion of France in 1944. So Soren in claiming Abwehr was perfect Intelligence Organisation who were never penetrated comprimised or fooled by their Allied Enemies was and is a to BIG A CALL to make. In the World of Espionage and Spying Soren there isn't one Organisation similar to Abwehr who hasn't been comprimised or fooled betrayed. Or any such organisations who haven't had MOLES or had been betrayed internally. Abwehr was never 100% water tight as you may assume Soren. And by the way Soren I have plenty of other links on Abwehr and the Brandenburgs on my favourites. But I suggest you begin reading the above links on Abwehr and German Intelligence Networks as I have provided. Especially the first link as it provides a very interesting meeting occuring in June 1999 detailing Intelligence Operations in Germany for 50 years from 1939 to 1999


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## Freebird (Mar 15, 2008)

Interesting stuff Emac, I agree there is no 100% security. Thanks for the links!

About Enigma I think that Donitz was very suspicious, he didn't trust it except that HQ kept assuring him it was foolproof.


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## Emac44 (Mar 15, 2008)

Nothing is fool proof Freebird not even Engima or its British counterpart Ultra or Collausses. These machines were operated by Human Beings and as such Human Beings make mistakes and hence machines being operated by Human Beings mistakes occur. The unfortunate thing of today I find that many think the Germans always had the upper hand in everything during World War 2. This wasn't the case and never was. I admit we got of onto another area in this scenerio. But I felt compelled to prove that Abwehr wasn't perfect Freebird. As Soren was overlooking Abwehr failures and glorifying all of Abwehr's successes. A simple Google Search on Abwehr MI5 or MI6 will lead you into some very interesting sites and information that is available is some what overwhelming.

But one of the most interesting links I came across but unfortunately I didn't save it nor can I find it again was from an operation by MI6 SOE and PWE involving having Abwehr and the Gestapo believe there was a Fifth Element Group operating in side Germany itself. The Operation was based similar to the misinformation campaign conducted by the Allies with turned Abwehr Agents leading up to the D.Day. What was involved basically was this Freebrid. The British Intelligence early in World War 2 had their Operatives in Germany captured. So the British devised a plan to have Abwehr and the Gestapo believe 5th Element Groups had reformed funded by MI6 or SOE style Operatives. The opposite was true of course. No such groups exsisted in Germany. But here was the bluff part of the Operation. What the British had done was to use captured German POWs train them as like SOE Operatives but being low ranked and easily captured on return back to Germany etc. The RAF during the course of bombing raids would also drop weapon caches radio equipment and false code books etc near certain areas the Allied Intelligence Services had the Gestapo and Abwehr believing was the nuclues to 5th Element Groups. The Weapons Radios and Code Books were dropped by the RAF to simulate that 5th Element Groups were being resupplied. And this also included false and misleading documents supposively of the secret nature etc etc. It was by all means a rouse. But the basis behind it was that Abwehr and the Gestapo would waste time money and man power investigating the rouse. Abwehr did similar operations to this but it seems the British had a more natural flair for this type of operation then the Germans and was somewhat more successful then the Germans themselves. Maybe its from the very fact that at times the English can be absolutely villians at times when it suits them. But also this scenerio that the British set up fits perfectly well in some parts of the scenerio you had envisioned Freebird in this discussion. 

What I find in particular with MI5 and MI6 the English have this attitude different from the Germans. That it was all serious and dangerous but it was more like wizard jape boys own stuff. When it came to spying and espionage. It was more an adventure to the English then it was to their German or Axis Counter Parts. But it was deadly dangerous all the same. If you look at the website link below the game of spying seemed to take on different paramaters for each country. And if you go through the alpabetically listed sections of the home page on this website you will find different information and links Freebird and further books dealing in the subject of espionage and how the different Spy Networks evolved and were set up 

Encyclopedia of Espionage, Intelligence, and Security 


When I find the link again I will post it for you to read. Though admittely not all parts of this MI6 plan were carried out and some parts were cancelled for various reasons. But in Espionage the game of bluffing and counter bluffing your opponet was part of what all Intelligence Organisations do. By the way just found the link of the M16 SOE and PWE 

Black Propaganda - Operation Periwig


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## Soren (Mar 16, 2008)

Been skiing in Sweden since thursday, hence my absence on forum, will address this thread as soon as possible.

PS: Sad to see my Weaponology thread closed  Esp. because of all the crap written by Glen M_Kenny


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## Emac44 (Mar 16, 2008)

Hope you enjoyed your skiing Soren. Have no idea about your other Postings or thread so will not comment.

But a note here. Over the weekend HMAS Sydney and HSK Kormoran have both been located after 65 years. Which ties up with this link in some aspects. But more the case of a Surface vessel action involving A HMAS Ship and a Kriegsmarine Ship. Of the Western Australian Coast


Ok now have read your other thread Soren. Good God it was a simple area of people disagreeing about a discussion or debate. No one at fault just an over expressing of ideas. One has to except a closure as an adult to a debate when it becomes heated or uncivil


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## Aussie1001 (Mar 17, 2008)

Yes Emac that was very exciting, it is nice that finally one of the greatest navel misteries of Australia has finally been solved after almost 70 years.


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## Soren (Mar 18, 2008)

Emac44,

I never claimed that all the operations of the Abwehr and Brandenburgers were successful, that's just yet another of your attempts to put words into my mouth, and let me tell you I don't like it!

What I said, and I stand by it, is that the Anwehr was never infiltrated, and there's no evidence to suggest otherwise. A number of Abwehr agents were captured, that's completely true, but far more Allied agents were caught by the Abwehr and the Gestapo. 

What also needs to be noted is that the Brandenburg regiment and the Abwehr were very small organizations and didn't commit nearly as many men to covert operations as the Allies did. The Abwehr Gestapo not only had to deal with the MI5 6, but also the OSS, French underground resistance, the Red Orchestra, the partizans, etc etc... The Abwehr Gestapo had their hands full.

But Emac44, please provide the links you have on the Brandenburgers. Should be interesting since I've got most books covering them and their activities.

So like in the beginning I still see no serious threats to the operation not succeeding.


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## Emac44 (Mar 18, 2008)

Fact is also that the Abwehr was never infiltrated. 

The above are your words Soren. Along with it you also said that when Caneris was in command of Abwehr. I have provided proof that Abwehr had indeed been penetrated. Abwehr had been duped by Allied Intelligence Organisation Abwehr Code Books had been captured Abwehr Persosnal had been captured. Abwehr had its communications comprimised not just once but numerous times. And Abwehr mistakenly thought there was no such things as double agents. Agents Abwehr put faith in who were working for the Allies and had betrayed Abwehr. It doesn't get any more simplier than that Soren. And yet you still sit there Soren shaking your head and saying it never happened. Well unfortunately for you Soren IT DID HAPPEN. And all of it whilst Caneris was in command of Abwehr. And now you are making excuses saying that Abwehr was out matched because it has so many other organisations ranged against it Russian US British and French. And Soren Abwehr had been penetrated by the SS and SD. Abwehr like any Intelligence Organisations manned by human beings make and made mistakes. 

Abwehr wasn't manned by Supermen nor were the Brabdenburgers you have so much faith in. I suggest Soren you find in yourself that you have misguided yourself into believing the Abwehr and the Brandenbergers didn't **** it up on more than one occassion. And you have glorified their successes and minimized their failures to a degree that you have deluded yourself. Now go ahead and continue to believe your Abwehr Based Fairy Tales. As for me the evidence I have provided for you speaks for itself. That you have denied the evidence and discounted it because it doesn't jell with your dreams of a Abwehr Brandenberger SuperWorld made up of Super Humans. And I am finished with your childishness Soren. Proof of your childishness in my mind came with your own posting on German Weaponology and You proceeded calling other Forum Users Liars because they dared to disagree with you in another thread. I deal with adults Soren not denial based Children. 

And you know what Soren I don't give a FLYING TOSS IF YOU FEEL I HAVE PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH. Quiet frankly Soren. I read your statements and now you have made excuses for Abwehr because the evidence I provided made Abwehr look human and it is that you have problems adjusting to. And you go right ahead believing your scenerio would work in your own denials of Abwehr and the Brandenburgers. Believe what you want as in my opinion you are standing in a pile of **** and you think its roses growing. Aussie was correct you are talking POO. And I am finished discussing anything with you Soren. And if you feel insulted by all this then good Soren because I am tired in dealing with a spoilt child who can't see the error of his own ways and believes no one else has a clue about World War 2.


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## Emac44 (Mar 18, 2008)

Freebird I will not be taking any more part in this scenerio.


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## Aussie1001 (Mar 18, 2008)

"Aussie was correct you are talking POO"
I enjoy it when my opinions are verified.
as for me all i can say is exactly what Emac 44 has said.
Seriously Soren, supermen are in a comic books not in the german army.


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## Soren (Mar 18, 2008)

Emac, you're the one being childish not me, and you've provided no proof other than websites stating the capture of German agents. That Abwehr code books were retrieved meant nothing, esp. seeing that the Abwehr knew about it, hence their ability to continue carrying out successful covert operations till the end of the war. If the Allies knew everything they were doing that wouldn't have been possible at all! Is that so hard to understand ??? Now if you want to deny this then fine by me, but you'd just be making stuff up from then on.

Finally I don't believe the Abwehr or Brandenburgers to be supermen and have never claimed them to be either, and I neither claimed they never made any mistakes, you Emac however have tried to make it sound like that. You have also made it sound like the Austrailians were somehow better soldiers than everyone else, hence you're the one deluding yourself here.

And as for the Weaponology thread, well do you feel providing facts is childish?

Fact is that Germany was the clear leader in most fields of techonology, esp. Aerodynamics in which it was far ahead from 1904 and till the end of WW2. That's what M_kenny esp. Glen tried to dispute. And as for me calling them liars, well fact is Glen is a known liar, just check out the previous threads he has attended, he makes stuff up, it's that simple. 

Anyway this is just fact, and if that upsets you then that's your problem and I can't help you with that.

Now as for the many links you claimed to have on the Brandenburgers, well no surprise you haven't presented these yet..


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## Emac44 (Mar 18, 2008)

I never thought when I joined this website I would find some one that irritating and frustratingly narrow minded. And to keep the peace on the website I have placed this person on ignore. In my opinion it has gone from a scenerio to one of obsession bordering on fantasy. And then proceeded to insult my country in a round about fashion. Which I will not tolerate


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## Soren (Mar 18, 2008)

Hmm.. still no links.. oh well, no surprise..


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## Freebird (Mar 18, 2008)

Soren said:


> And as for the Weaponology thread, well do you feel providing facts is childish?
> 
> Fact is that Germany was the clear leader in most fields of techonology, That's what M_kenny esp. Glen tried to dispute. And as for me calling them liars, well fact is Glen is a known liar, just check out the previous threads he has attended, he makes stuff up, it's that simple.



Oh please lets not import any more disagreements here!   



Emac44 said:


> I never thought when I joined this website I would find some one that irritating and frustratingly narrow minded. And to keep the peace on the website I have placed this person on ignore. In my opinion it has gone from a scenerio to one of obsession bordering on fantasy. And then proceeded to insult my country in a round about fashion. Which I will not tolerate



Sorry that the thread seems to have got a bit disagreeable. 

Thanks for your good info Emac, that was the original point of the thread, to explore the possibilities of "special ops". It's interesting that the Axis did not try to do as much as the Allies, {especially the British Empire} I wonder if that was arrogance on their part, or if the British just made more use of it because they were so short on troops such. 

Although I must say that it seems like Germany made more use of special ops in the early years when they were not as powerful as well. I am thinking of the Norway operation, their troops were minimal but they were very effective


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## Emac44 (Mar 19, 2008)

No need for you to apologise Freebird. I regret the discussion has boiled down to this. But as I said to keep the peace I will discontinue the discussion


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## Soren (Mar 19, 2008)

freebird said:


> Oh please lets not import any more disagreements here!




Hey don't blame me Freebird, it wasn't me who brought up the weaponology thread, and I didn't start throwing the mud either.

Emac's links only mention the capture of German agents, nothing about any infiltrations of the Abwehr.


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## Emac44 (Mar 26, 2008)

PS: Sad to see my Weaponology thread closed  Esp. because of all the crap written by Glen M_Kenny [/QUOTE] 


Hmmmmm interesting


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## Emac44 (Mar 26, 2008)

Soren said:


> Been skiing in Sweden since thursday, hence my absence on forum, will address this thread as soon as possible.
> 
> PS: Sad to see my Weaponology thread closed  Esp. because of all the crap written by Glen M_Kenny



Hmmmm very interesting indeed


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## Soren (Mar 26, 2008)

So is that your late excuse for starting throwing insults in this thread ?


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## Emac44 (Mar 26, 2008)

And you ignoring every website I place on this thread dealing with the infiltration of Abwehr by the Allies including Operation Gabo during WW2. And then proceeded to call me a LIAR. But then again Soren you are very good at calling people LIARS. Pity you can't distinguished what a LIAR really is. Then had the cheek to say to Freebird it was me who had mudslung. Well Soren you wanted attention to your thread being closed on German Weaponology because 2 other users decided to get stuck into you and you didn't like it and you decided to bring it to this thread. And all that was was Soren and his pity party seeking, 

And every single Abwehr agent caught and captured except 1 who commited suicide turned against Abwehr in Britian and there was well over 100 agents of Abwehr operating in Britian from 1938 to 1941. Abwehr Head Quatars in Paris was Penetrated by the French Resistence. Abwehr Code Books were stolen by the British Abwehr communications were comprimised. And still after all those website I put on the thread including from MI5 and BBC you chose to ignore. Making out that justifies you calling me a LIAR. Capturing of those Abwehr Agents and the information the British gained from those agents and turning those agents means Abwehr was certainly penetrated and Infiltrated by the Allies in World War 2. You Soren just choose to ignore all that because it still doesn't fit in with your Germanic Abwehr Fantasies of Supermen. 

And it is my self who chooses to respond to a thread or not. As much as I said to Freebird I would not respond on this thread I decided otherwise after reading your juvenile remarks to Freebird about myself. 

In future Soren if I was you I would stop referring to people on this website as LIARS or making comments as to you hinting to them as being LIARS because they dare to disagree with your fanatic ideas about Abwehr Brandenberg or German Weaponology. If any one slung mud it was yourself Soren. As Glen M_ Kenny remarks were justified. German Weaponology was good but failed miserabley many times due to a variety of reasons barely touched on by those 2 other users. Yes I did read their remarks and your replies on that thread. You apparently Soren have a problem that has been noted by others on this forum of being one eyed and biased towards German Technology and Military achievements and disregard Allied Nations as being inferior to that of the Germans.

And Freebird once again I apologise for bringing this Thread to disagreement again. I suggest you have one of the Moderators close this thread.


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## Freebird (Mar 26, 2008)

Soren said:


> Hey don't blame me Freebird, it wasn't me who brought up the weaponology thread, and I didn't start throwing the mud either.



 No problem. It really amazes me that the most contentious and disagreeable comments come on threads that are highly technical, I would have thought that engineers would be the most cool level headed?  



Emac44 said:


> And Freebird once again I apologise for bringing this Thread to disagreement again. I suggest you have one of the Moderators close this thread.



Hopefully it will settle down a bit and that won't be needed.

I think you have both made some good points, and it has been a rather interesting discussion. 

Soren while I agree with you that it would be *possible* for the German commando's to make it to Australia, I don't think the "payoff" would come anywhere near the cost involved. Also Emac the others have made some valid points about the distance involved, it makes it very difficult to account for any problems encountered so far away.

Also, you may be right about the later type IX's having the range to get there in 1942, however I was postulating a "combined Axis plan" in which it would be critical for 
(1.) all commando operations to be set up in the fall of '41, so that the teams can go from Pearl +1. 
(2.) Germany would need to deploy *all* type IX's (and many type VII's) on the US east coast to be ready to attack right after Pearl.

I a {hypothetical} German Japanese war conference in the summer of 1941 would give the *Japanese the responsibility of commando attacks against Australia,* as it was in their sphere of influence, and they already had some intelligence agents operating in many areas of the S. Pacific. There commando attacks would probably be more basic in nature, however the Japanese have the advantage that their soldiers can travel very light, and are all "suicide troops", so will fight to the death instead of surrender.

Perhaps the best tactic for the Japanese to use would be to launch a few 6 carrier attacks against Sydney or Brisbane etc, in concert with the commando attacks. The point would be to force Australia (and the US) to devote several {or many} fighter squadons to defend Australian cities. {instead of defending against Japanese expansion in N. Guinea, Malaysia, Coral sea etc}

Once Germany has decided to throw in together with the Japanese, it would be most profitable for *Germany to make commando attacks against the USA*, as in peacetime mode it would be almost unprepared for this.

We tend to forget that at this point the US was desperatly short of *everything* {except bravado  }, they didn't have enough troops, planes, ships, guns, vehicles, *everything*. So that a few small but effective attacks will cause the US to waste badly needed resources guarding potential targets.



Glider said:


> You need something more to be effective, continual small strikes that can cause significant damage, that happen again and again, spread uncertainty.
> Targets should be infrastructure based, water pumping stations, power lines, fuel pipelines, bridges, almost anything that impacts the civilian population. Anything that makes them question their goverment and what they are being told.



Glider is exactly right, these kind of "infrastructure" attacks could be very effective. Imagine if the US army had to post a company or platoon to guard every, dam, power station, railway bridge, refinery, airfield, etc



Soren said:


> Emac's links only mention the capture of German agents, nothing about any infiltrations of the Abwehr.



Ok I think you are almost debating different things. I don't think Emac was saying that they "infiltrated" Abwehr HQ, but the capture of agents and especially the info passed by Canaris could be a major problem.

Soren have you read much about Canaris? I know he tried to undermine the Nazi's, but I wonder how much direct knowlege he would have of commando missions, and whether he would expose his own "special ops" teams to capture death?

For example, if it was leaked to the Allies that Germany might be planning sabotage missions in the US in the event of war, this might not be a major problem, as the US was unwilling to believe that they were vulnerable to attack, and the info might not be believed anyways as a possible plant of a "red herring" {there were alot of rumours floating around in the spring/summer of '41, the US was worried about German schemes in Mexico, S. America etc} 

However if Canaris was to leak* specific* information about where the teams would land on the Atlantic coast, or what *specific targets* they were planning to attack then this could be a major problem.

*Questions for Soren { Emac}*

Would Canaris have detailed information like that?
What was his status in the summer of 1941? I think that they already suspected his loyatly, is it possible that they would keep him "out of the loop"?
Do you think that Canaris would perhaps only leak general warnings but not betray his own Abwehr special agents?

Soren I don't think that you can dismiss Emac's points about intelligence leaks, the leakage of detailed information could be very damaging to this type of operation.

However on the other hand, I also do recall that the British gave the USA advance warning about "Drumbeat", but it made little difference as the US was unwilling or unable to make any defensive preparations.


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## Freebird (Mar 26, 2008)

Emac44 said:


> And every single Abwehr agent caught and captured except 1 who commited suicide turned against Abwehr in Britian and there was well over 100 agents of Abwehr operating in Britian from 1938 to 1941. Abwehr Head Quatars in Paris was Penetrated by the French Resistence. Abwehr Code Books were stolen by the British Abwehr communications were comprimised. And still after all those website I put on the thread including from MI5 and BBC you chose to ignore. Making out that justifies you calling me a LIAR. Capturing of those Abwehr Agents and the information the British gained from those agents and turning those agents means Abwehr was certainly penetrated and Infiltrated by the Allies in World War 2.



Emac the Abwehr certainly had problems, its hard to imagine how they functioned at all with the guy at the top sabotaging {Canaris}

The thing I was wondering is with all the info available to the British, how did the German commando's pull off such an effective attack against Norway?

I would think that the Norway operations would provide a good example of the effectivness of "commando attacks"?


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## Glider (Mar 27, 2008)

I would suggest that the attack on Norway was a lot more than a commando attack, it was a full invasion.


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## Emac44 (Mar 27, 2008)

Glider said:


> I would suggest that the attack on Norway was a lot more than a commando attack, it was a full invasion.



As was the original attack on Poland in 1939. As was a full attack on Norway and Greece and in part Crete later. But Caneris was the leak point and always had been. And if the Allies knew of Caneris being a leak in the Abwehr Operations and also German Military Secret Information. It is a very good chance that the Gestapo and SS Intelligence knew this as well or suspected as such. It is highly likely the Gestapo had their own information sources in Abwehr. If Caneris had plans as early as 1942 to assasinate Hitler and we do know of such groups in Germany along with Caneris and including High Ranking Officers of the German Military were unsatisfied with Hitler and his regime. Even after the attempted assasination on Hitler in 1944. Rounding up of conspirators of the assasination plot by the Gestapo and other Military Groups loyal to the Hitler Regime took very little time to accomplish and Caneris was one of the first arrested. We know that the Gestapo had suspected German Citizens and Military years previous to the Wolf Lair Assasination Plot already being placed under scrutiny by the Gestapo. And this alone in itself comprimises Abwehr Security in itself as Caneris had been suspected by the Gestapo and German NAZI Government of being disloyal to the Regime. One of the greatest disasters for the German NAZI Government was the play games of seeking approval by Hitler by senior members of the NAZI Party and Government. The risk of one of these Government Officials finding out about such a plan as Soren has detailed by Abwehr not sanctioned by the NAZI Government Military or High Ranking Party Members of the NAZI Party would be too much to resist. And that would also keep Caneris out of the loop in my opinion Freebird. Caneris by all means was a resourceful man but he was also Anti Nazi. And as such being kept out of the loop of such a plan as he would envisage as Soren had detailed would be too much for him and I believe Caneris would betray this to the Allies. This of course is speculation and also relies on whether the Allies would also buy this betrayal by Caneris as being factual. But going by his past record the Allied Intelligence Services would keep a wary watchful eye on things as it developed 

A plan as extravagant as Soren's stretching over 15,000 Sea Miles to an area of the world which is doubtful that German Intelligence knew much about in the 1940s. Nor the enviroment as already discussed. I believe Soren thinks the Western Australian Desert and Coastline is similar to what is found in North Africa. It simpley isn't nor is the temperature or lack of water and supplies would hinder greatly such an attack or make it near impossible to launch from such a distance effectively. One of the greater barriers being such islands you find of the Coral Coast of Queensland. Such islands do not exsist on the West Coast of Australia. There are a few Rocky Barren outcrops with no fresh water or cover to speak of. 

Some one mentioned the Aboriginals themselves being part of this equation. Which was dismissed by Soren. These Aborigines who live in this enviroment even though not of any Military Significance to Soren would play a siginficant role in discovering the where abouts of any one not native to this area. One of the Aborigines greatest feats in his own enviroment is to not be seen. They are truely masters of their own enviroment and it is again highly doubtful that even Brandenberg Troops would know if their pressences and where abouts would not have been discovered, within a very short time by Aborigines and information passed onto White Authorities. I know Brandenberg Troops spoke several different European Languages but it is to much to even contemplate that Brandenberg Elite Troops knew any of the 200 Aboriginal Dialects still concurrent in Australia in 1942 

The Japanese on the other hand could have launched an attack on the Far North or Eastern Coast of Australia and had greater successes. But the German Military launching an attack over such great distances is near impossible. And it matters little if Brandenberg Elite Commandos were to be used as it would be near suicidal to even comtemplate having such troops with Western minded emphasis going on a suicide mission with no ultimate pay off at the end. And again I can't emphasis enough the vast expanses of the Western Australian Coastline being so isolated with communities many hundreds of Kilometres seperating each community along this Coastline. This being and is the case defeats the purpose of Soren's mission to spread panic. Its a bit hard to spread panic by attacking one community 300 miles away and other communities don't know of it due to distances involved. And if this attack was to concern itself on attacks not on just Communities and Civilians but also Infrastructure for example Electricity Dams Telephone Water Supplies and Concentrated Infrastructure like Road and Rail Transportation etc. These simpley didn't exsist in Western Australia in 1942 not to the great extend that Soren imagines. This is Western Australia in 1942 with small populations lack of infrastructure communities seperated by hundreds of miles in isolation stretched over a coastline some 1,500 miles. Now you explain to me who would attack such a target without some type of pay off at the end. It would be a total waste of time man power and effort. And it would cost the lives of Elite Troops best used elsewhere for a greater gain then what as Soren envisages.


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## Emac44 (Mar 27, 2008)

And here I have had to use Google Earth Maps to show in context the Western Australian Coastline of 2008. In 1942 the Coastline of course would not have changed significantly but the population and infrastructure would have in comparison from 1942 to 2008. The Major population Centre in Western Australia is around the Southern Region around Perth in map 3 etc. The 2nd map shows around Shark's Bay Central Coast line and above. Map 1 shows the Northern Region of Western Australia up as far as the Northern Territory Border. These areas especially map 1 and 2 were isolated areas in 1942 with townships and infrastructure lacking greatly. Maybe this may explain to Soren and give him a visual imagery to understand why his scenerio would fail. When Australians say to him this area is isolated we mean its ISOLATED. For all the purposes in Soren's Scenerio. The greater Scenerio would be attacking the EAST COAST OF THE USA in 1942 then to comtemplate attacking a Coast Line in Australia so deverse and lacking in population centres and infrastructure


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## Emac44 (Mar 27, 2008)

And here is an Google Earth Map of East Coast USA 2008 comparatively changed since 1942 of course. But in comparison to the Western Australian Coast would be a highly sought after target to conduct a Commando Raid upon where High Population Cities and Infrastructure Targets would be a higher value and clustered closer together. If I was to plan a Commando Raid and had the choice of which targets to strike I would choose the area I knew would cause more damage to the enemy on all areas. I certainly wouldn't choose an area as isolated as Western Australia and have scant or little return Militarily


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## Freebird (Mar 27, 2008)

Glider said:


> I would suggest that the attack on Norway was a lot more than a commando attack, it was a full invasion.




What I meant Glider was that the "conventional" amphib operations in Norway were at the start a big defeat, {the Norway shore batteries sunk a German heavy cruiser}, while the "commando" style operations were a stunning success. The small scale para landings, the "trojan horse" operations on Bergen Trondheim {IIRC} where German troops hidden in cargo ships landed unopposed to capture the ports. 

I wondered if the British had warning of the covert troop landing plan, why couldn't they do more to intercept them before they landed?


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## Soren (Mar 27, 2008)

Freebird,

Sorry for the late reply, and it'll be short cause I have to get back to work soon, again sorry, but I'll be back.

To answer one of your questions though;

Canaris NEVER handed over any information on any operation carried out by the Abwehr and esp. the Brandenburg regiment to the Allies. It is really important to get it clear that Canaris didn't ever want to betray and endanger his men, all he wanted was Hitler off the "throne" so to speak, and therefore supplied the Allies with information of his where'abouts. 

To make it even more clear Canaris like every other German wanted to win the war, or atleast not loose it, and thus he never once thought of betraying his country men and putting them in mortal danger. 

Thus in your hypothetical scenario there need be no worries about Canaris slipping a tongue about anything, cause he like every other German would've wanted it to succeed.


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## Soren (Mar 27, 2008)

> Hopefully it will settle down a bit and that won't be needed.



With Emac's continious illusions of me being a Nazi I really doubt that Freebird.

Anyway all I can do is laugh at his ridiculous rants. Also to no surprise Emac still hasn't provided anything to support his claim that the Abwehr was ever infiltrated, eventhough he claims his links are evidence, the problem however is that his links don't mention it at all.

And as for me being biased, well the funny thing is that it is usually very biased individuals who accuse others of being biased, and Emac has already once made it clear that he thinks Australian soldiers are supermen of their own, totally better than their British counterparts ofcourse. So who's biased here ?


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## Freebird (Mar 27, 2008)

Soren said:


> With Emac's continious illusions of me being a Nazi I really doubt that Freebird. And as for me being biased, well the funny thing is that it is usually very biased individuals who accuse others of being biased, and Emac has already once made it clear that he thinks Australian soldiers are supermen of their own, totally better than their British counterparts ofcourse. So who's biased here



I don't think he was calling you a Nazi Soren, and I don't think anyone should be slinging that accusation. We all have some "patriotic" fellings here, I would guess that your background is probably German. Emac is proud of his Australian heritage {and probably British too, as is mine} Nothing wrong with that. In any event, we are discussing hypotheticals here, and must base this on interpretation of facts as far as possible. 



> Emac still hasn't provided anything to support his claim that the Abwehr was ever infiltrated, eventhough he claims his links are evidence, the problem however is that his links don't mention it at all.



Well they *do* mention the infiltration of the Abwehr's British operation, but the double agents wouldn't have information about upcoming German operations of course.

Did the US have the same kind of success catching agents as the British? Or any success?

Soren I think to be honest that Emac Glider have both brought up good points, 




Emac44 said:


> A plan as extravagant as Soren's stretching over 15,000 Sea Miles the Western Australian Desert.
> I know Brandenberg Troops spoke several different European Languages but it is to much to even contemplate that Brandenberg Elite Troops knew any of the 200 Aboriginal Dialects still concurrent in Australia in 1942



I am in agreement with you Emac, the German landing in the desert {or anywhere in OZ} does not make much sense from a practical point, or in regard to benefits gained



Emac said:


> The Japanese on the other hand could have launched an attack on the Far North or Eastern Coast of Australia and had greater successes. But the German Military launching an attack over such great distances is near impossible.



Agreed, I think it would make the most sense to consider the possible attacks that the Japanese might contemplate against Australia, and that Germany might plan against the USA.

{so lets leave the aborigines their boomerangs in peace  }



Emac44 said:


> And here is an Google Earth Map of East Coast USA 2008 comparatively changed since 1942 of course. But in comparison to the Western Australian Coast would be a highly sought after target to conduct a Commando Raid upon where High Population Cities and Infrastructure Targets would be a higher value and clustered closer together. If I was to plan a Commando Raid and had the choice of which targets to strike I would choose the area I knew would cause more damage to the enemy on all areas.



Again I agree Emac, it makes the most sense. 

The question is whether to land a sizeable force {50-75 men} in one place, or as Glider suggested, many smaller 4 - 8 man teams would be harder to track catch. 

Would it be better to use the available 5th column "Bund" supporters?
These pro-fascists could provide very valuable logistical support {cars, safe houses, supplies etc} but then there would be a higher risk of someone betraying the operation.


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## Emac44 (Mar 27, 2008)

And still you haven't addressed the issues. And still you are German Biased. If you claim I called you a NAZI then that is of your own imagination over reacting. And Yes Soren each and every WEBSITE I PROVIDED MENTIONED ABWEHR. Now who is it who is in denial. Denial that your scenerio has been proved lacking and faulty AND DENIAL THAT ABWEHR ****** UP ON MORE THEN ONE OCCASSION . As for Caneris Betraying HITLER to the ALLIES MEANT CANERIS WOULD BETRAY GERMANY AS HITLER WAS THE HEAD OF THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT AT THE TIME. CANERIS OR BRANDENBERGERS WERE NOT THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT. YES THEY BOTH SERVED GERMANY BUT THIS ALSO MEANS THEY SERVED THE THEN GERMAN GOVERNMENT. BUT CANERIS IN HIS ATTEMPTS AND BEING INVOLVED WITH THE PLOT TO ASSASINATE HITLER MEANS HE COMMITTED TREASON ACCORDING TO THE THEN GERMAN GOVERNMENT. WHAT PART OF THIS DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND. AND CANERIS IN HIS ATTEMPTS TO ASSASINATE HITLER WAS WILLING LIKE ALL OF THE CONSPIRATORS TO NEGIOATE PEACEFUL TERMS AND CONDITIONS WITH THE ALLIES ONCE HITLER WAS REMOVED FROM POWER. IN OTHER WORDS ONCE HITLER WAS REMOVED THE CONSPIRATORS ON GAINING POWER WANTED AN ARMISTICES WITH THE ALLIES AS SIMILAR TO THE ARMISTICE OF 1918


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## Emac44 (Mar 28, 2008)

And again I never claimed Soren was a NAZI. I said Soren was biased against Allied War Effort but always highlighted favourabley German Abwehr successes or German Military successes never the failures of either. I call into question Soren's Scenerio. Some how Soren has concluded that this means I have called him a NAZI


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## Emac44 (Mar 28, 2008)

freebird said:


> I don't think he was calling you a Nazi Soren, and I don't think anyone should be slinging that accusation. We all have some "patriotic" fellings here, I would guess that your background is probably German. Emac is proud of his Australian heritage {and probably British too, as is mine} Nothing wrong with that. In any event, we are discussing hypotheticals here, and must base this on interpretation of facts as far as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well it would make more sense to send 4 to 5 man team with 5th Element Group assisting in your scenerio in the US Freebrid. As 4 to 5 man team is easier to hide then 50 to 75 men. And given the right circumstances a small group can cause as much damage to infrastructure then 50 to 75 men in comparison. Once Again unless you are planning a large scale commando attack. A smaller group would be abled to attack and evade better. Similar operations by the British worked extremely well in Occupied Europe though to be fair there were also some massive stuff ups and failures. But this is to be expected on such a raid. And as you have said Freebird its not always possible to have 100% security to make the operation successful, through the entire length of the operation. A myrid of things could go wrong even before launching the operation. From Departure to Arrival and Return


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## Soren (Mar 28, 2008)

And you Emac44, fail to realize that the Abwehr was NEVER infiltrated and that NONE of your links says otherwise!


Freebird,

I'm still not from Germany, or Austria or Switzerland...


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## Freebird (Mar 28, 2008)

Emac44 said:


> And again I never claimed Soren was a NAZI. I said Soren was biased against Allied War Effort but always highlighted favourabley German Abwehr successes or German Military successes never the failures of either. I call into question Soren's Scenerio. Some how Soren has concluded that this means I have called him a NAZIAnd still you haven't addressed the issues. *And still you are German Biased.*



Perhaps he does favor Germany Emac, nothing wrong with that.  i notice that most of the posters that said "USA won the war" were American, which raised the ire of almost all of the commonwealth posters here! *National pride is alive well*. It's fine to herald the capabilities of one side or the other, as long as we remain realistic. 



Emac44 said:


> Soren each and every WEBSITE I PROVIDED MENTIONED ABWEHR. ABWEHR ****** UP ON MORE THEN ONE OCCASSION .
> 
> As for Caneris Betraying HITLER to the ALLIES MEANT CANERIS WOULD BETRAY GERMANY AS HITLER WAS THE HEAD OF THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT AT THE TIME. . BUT CANERIS IN HIS ATTEMPTS AND BEING INVOLVED WITH THE PLOT TO ASSASINATE HITLER MEANS HE COMMITTED TREASON ACCORDING TO THE THEN GERMAN GOVERNMENT.
> 
> . AND CANERIS IN HIS ATTEMPTS TO ASSASINATE HITLER WAS WILLING LIKE ALL OF THE CONSPIRATORS TO NEGIOATE PEACEFUL TERMS AND CONDITIONS WITH THE ALLIES ONCE HITLER WAS REMOVED FROM POWER. IN OTHER WORDS ONCE HITLER WAS REMOVED THE CONSPIRATORS ON GAINING POWER WANTED AN ARMISTICES WITH THE ALLIES AS SIMILAR TO THE ARMISTICE OF 1918



OK Emac, I can see both yours Sorens points of view.

Soren says that while Canaris wanted to get rid of Hitler, he wouldn't betray his own agents

Emac {if I read your point right} you think that Canaris would betray a plan to hit the USA because he would think attacking USA was suicide.

Emac you are correct that Abwehr ops in the UK were badly compromised a major failure.

*Questions are: How did the British catch all of these agents in the UK? Were any betrayed by Canaris or were they detected by other means? 

And are there any specific details about whether Canaris was still "In the loop" in the fall of '41? If he was suspected by the Gestapo at the time, and the German command planned top secret ops against USA it wouldn't be too smart to let him in on the details, does it?*



Emac44 said:


> Well it would make more sense to send 4 to 5 man teams. Similar operations by the British worked extremely well in Occupied Europe though to be fair there were also some massive stuff ups and failures. But this is to be expected on such a raid. And as you have said Freebird *its not always possible to have 100% security to make the operation successful, through the entire length of the operation. A myrid of things could go wrong* even before launching the operation. From Departure to Arrival and Return



Very true, Emac, although I have some doubts that info about a supposed commando attack would be acted upon, due to the huge volume of information intercept "chatter".

The USA was very concerned about possible German plans in Mexico or S. America, I really wonder if the US got info about a few possible commandos blowing up bridges or something would even be acted upon. Remembering of course that the commanders on the ground in Hawaii got fairly specific warnings the week befor Pearl that "something was up", yet through complacency failed to act on it.


Everyone on the thread, lets leave out the accusations of lying, or personal attacks!! 

This is a hypothetical discussion, so we can post facts info relavant to the discussion, and then debate how this would apply to the hypothetical scenario.

Soren, I think Emac has raised a solid criticism of the idea, in that if Canaris thought it was a bad idea, he might leak it. The key point would be if he ever *did* betray German agents, if he was willing to sacrifice his own agents for what he thought was for the "Good of Germany"


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## Freebird (Mar 28, 2008)

Soren said:


> Freebird,
> 
> Sorry for the late reply, and it'll be short cause I have to get back to work soon, again sorry, but I'll be back.
> 
> ...



So you think that even if he thought that planning attacks against USA was "suicide" he wouldn't betray his own men? 

I think I can see the logic in this, he wanted Hitler out but wouldn't betray "his" men

Would he though perhaps leak general details of the plan to the Allies in an attempt to persuade the German high command to abandon it?


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## Emac44 (Mar 28, 2008)

freebird said:


> So you think that even if he thought that planning attacks against USA was "suicide" he wouldn't betray his own men?
> 
> I think I can see the logic in this, he wanted Hitler out but wouldn't betray "his" men
> 
> Would he though perhaps leak general details of the plan to the Allies in an attempt to persuade the German high command to abandon it?



That is highly possible Freebird. Leaking information from Caneris to the Allies before the Operation was to take place and have operations scrubbed and cancelled before it took place, Due to Caneris being in conflict with German Politiccal or Military Commands oppsed to Caneris


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## Emac44 (Mar 29, 2008)

Soren said:


> And you Emac44, fail to realize that the Abwehr was NEVER infiltrated and that NONE of your links says otherwise!
> 
> 
> Freebird,
> ...



Are you having a language PROBLEM Soren. Abwehr whether in Occupied Europe or in Great Britian was penetrated. Abwehr's OPERATIONS in England was infiltrated by MI5 and MI6 and agents were captured in the UK. In Paris Abwehr's own head quartars was infiltrated and their communications from that HEAD QUARTARS were infiltrated by the French Resistance. Abwehr agents in Britian again were turned to be double agents. This again is another infiltration of ABWEHR SECURITY. ABWEHR was deluded by British Intelligence by use of GABO Operative feeding false information to Abwehr prior to the invasion of France June 1944. Operation Perwig used by MI5 MI6 and SOE fed false information to Abwehr of 5th Element Groups in Germany itself. In Yugoslavia British SOE and Partinsan Groups operating in Yugoslavia where operating against Abwehr and Gestapo in that country. With the exception of Holland Abwehr agents had been comprimised and caught identified and at times killed. How much more do you want Soren. Are you having problems realising that INFILTRATION and PENETRATING ABWEHR Security and Operations is the same. How many more times Soren are you going to sit there shaking your bloody head and begin to realize ABWEHR MADE MISTAKES DURING WORLD WAR 2. And its not me failing to realize what my links says Soren its your own stubborness in thinking Abwehr was manned by SUPERMEN. And all my links I gave Soren says that Abwehr was Penetrated and Infiltrated. I am tired of your denials on this Soren. 

You have accused me of Calling you a NAZI. You have virtually called me a LIAR. You have insulted my country. When are you going to realize Soren your postings in denial about Abwehr is being seen as garbage. This is the same attitude you adopted with Glen and Kenny on your German Weaponology thread. Both of these users brought out brilliant counter points to your thread on German Weaponology but you behaved like as if they smeared the WHOLE GERMAN WAR EFFORT.


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## Glider (Mar 29, 2008)

Regarding the debate as to the Abwher being infiltrated or not by the Allied intelligence services I have found the following quote which will be of interest.

_In addition to Ultra and the contentions between the Abwehr and SD, MI-6 (British security service, also known as the Secret Intelligence Service, responsible for collecting foreign intelligence) had penetrated the Abwehr before the war. MI-6 had an agent who worked in the Abwehr intelligence school located in Hamburg.70 As a result, the British were able to identify many of the early German agents before they even left
16 SECOND WORLD WAR DECEPTION
German soil. The Abwehr never recovered from these early set backs
and the conflict with the SD. Thus, the German intelli gence
community was susceptible to Allied_
There are also some interesting observations on page 14 of the paper and I suggest that the whole document is of interest.

The link to the paper is as follows:-
http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/wright/wf05.pdf


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## Freebird (Mar 29, 2008)

Glider said:


> Regarding the debate as to the Abwher being infiltrated or not by the Allied intelligence services I have found the following quote which will be of interest.
> 
> _In addition to Ultra and the contentions between the Abwehr and SD, MI-6 (British security service, also known as the Secret Intelligence Service, responsible for collecting foreign intelligence) had penetrated the Abwehr before the war. MI-6 had an agent who worked in the Abwehr intelligence school located in Hamburg.70 As a result, the British were able to identify many of the early German agents before they even left
> German soil. _


_



Emac44 said:



That is highly possible Freebird. Leaking information from Caneris to the Allies before the Operation was to take place and have operations scrubbed and cancelled before it took place, Due to Caneris being in conflict with German Politiccal or Military Commands oppsed to Caneris

Click to expand...


I think you have established that Abwehr was "compromised". {whether or not Soren agrees that is the same as "penetrated"}, although Gliders quote seems to show that as well. They did not seem to have a mole inside the planning operations side AFAIK. 

However Emac, I don't think that the leak of general info would automatically result in the scrubbing of the operation. It's possible that Germany would not ebven know about the leak until they got to the US. If they sent out the commandos with general instructions only, {eg. list of targets} and left the commando leader in charge, it would work. If however they tried to micro-manage the operation from Berlin I think it would screw it up. {like the problems with the U-boats being located due to their communications}_


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## Soren (Mar 30, 2008)

It seems Emac still isn't finished with his false accusations..

I'd definitely like to know when I have ever insulted the country Australia, the country in which I myself have family???

Emac also seems unable to understand that there's a BIG difference between catching agents and actually infiltrating an agency! So I will repeat: NONE of Emac's links mention the Abwehr ever being infiltrated!

That the British caught Abwehr agents means nothing cause the Abwehr knew about it, likewise it meant nothing that the Abwehr captured allot of Allied agents.

If what Emac claims was true then the Abwehr quite simply wouldn't have been able to pull off so many successful covert operations right up till late 1944.

And regarding Canaris, why on earth would he try to comprimise an operation which was nothing more than an harrassment intelligence operation. Why would Canaris want 75 of his own men to die without achieving a single goal ??

One can definitely rest assured that Canaris wouldn't slip any information to the Allies about any such operation, and he never did.


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## Glider (Mar 30, 2008)

Soren
Have you read the paper that I posted?

It makes it clear that nearly all (it actually says all) the German agents that were landed in the UK were either killed, or turned into allied agents in the sense that they became part of the deception process. The fact that the Germans believed what they said and acted on the information fed to them by these turned agents, means that they were not aware that they had been captured.

That plus the fact that they monitored the German codes and were able to lead the German security forces into false trails and wasted effort would mean that German security missions into the UK were useless.

It is of course true that Germany were effective in capturing Allied Agents but they were not able to control allied operations in a manner that was even close to the control that the Allies had over German operations.

I should add that I also do not believe that Canaris would put his men at risk. He may well play political games within Germany and risk them that way, but that is very different from betraying your country directly to an enemy.


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## Emac44 (Mar 31, 2008)

Glider said:


> Regarding the debate as to the Abwher being infiltrated or not by the Allied intelligence services I have found the following quote which will be of interest.
> 
> _In addition to Ultra and the contentions between the Abwehr and SD, MI-6 (British security service, also known as the Secret Intelligence Service, responsible for collecting foreign intelligence) had penetrated the Abwehr before the war. MI-6 had an agent who worked in the Abwehr intelligence school located in Hamburg.70 As a result, the British were able to identify many of the early German agents before they even left
> 16 SECOND WORLD WAR DECEPTION
> ...



Thank you Glider for your most interesting comments. And I did read the link you posted. So the British Intelligence inserted a agent into Abwehr Intelligence School in Hamburg. Who identified all Abwehr agents into Britian. And these same 120 agents were turned by British Intelligence as double agents. Who fed Abwehr misleading information during the course of the WAR. What was it you was saying ABWEHR was never penetrated or inflitrated by the Allies. That Abwehr had never been deceived by Allied Intelligence. And that information Abwehr received wasn't passed onto the German Government and Military. So much for that debate.

Soren you have complained I called you a NAZI. Not once but several times you made this accusation of me. You insulted my country in making a claim regarding Australian Military as Supermen and That I had recorded as such. You also claimed that I had said Australians were a people of Super Beings. Just precisely tell me when I made that remark. You even believed that Aussie1001 called you a racists when you dismissed the Aborigines in this thread as per Discussion. Which I found not only insulting to me but my Country as I have never made that or any such claims . And it matters very little to me if you have got family living in Australia. You have called other users on this forum LIARS. Very opening statment on Weaponolgy thread you have called 2 forum users LIARS. You have virtually called me one as well. 

And now with Glider posting his information. Abwehr was very much penetrated infiltrated deceived and manipulated by the Allied Intelligence Service. And now finally it has been proved that Abwehr made mistakes Abwehr wasn't manned by Supermen.

And as for Caneris. He was hanged for TREASON by the Government of Germany. Caneris had been active in opposing Hitler's Regime. You may justify Caneris not betraying Abwehr Operatives per say on occassions he was responsible for. But Remember Hitler and his Regime with the Assasination Attempt by Caneris and others on Hitler was seen as Treason and as such Caneris was judged in betraying Germany. Even though you may disagree with the verdict. This verdict was delivered by the People's Court and Caneris was found Guilty. Caneris with other conspirators had conspired to pass on information to the Allies. After Hitler was removed that Caneris and his Cabal would negioate terms with the Allies. According to the German Government at the time this is an act of TREASON and as such Betrays Germany to her enemies. In this case the Allies. 

What you are looking at is if Caneris would not betray Abwehr. I am looking beyond Abwehr and viewing it as the German Government did in 1944 with Caneris's Treason. Caneris also opposed sending Abwehr agents into Russian POW Camps. Operation Commisar. This too would been seen as Treasonable activity by the Government of Germany and as aiding the Allied War Effort. And Soren these activities by Caneris have to be taken into account whether you agree to them or not. But you are seeing it was Abwehr Brandenberg Caneris were seperate identities operating without knolwedge of either the Allies or even their counter parts in Germany itself. Namely Gestapo and the SS or SD. As Glider's post has proved Abwehr failed in opposition to the Allies and had been infiltrated and penetrated. Caneris BETRAYED GERMANY in this Case Hitler and his Regime. 

Now with the turning of Abwehr Agents in Britian. MI5 and MI6 having knowledge of Abwehr Codes (as in Gliders Posting and his link)
The possibility of any planning as your scenerio dictates would be discovered by the British Intelligence according the Historical Data supplied by Glider in his link. As the data provides that Abwehr Codes and Transmissions were indeed being read by the Allies as early as 1941 and continued through out the war. Your scenerio Soren takes place in early 1942. Training would have to occur even with Brandenberg Troops. There is a British Mole in Abwehr as well in Hamburg according to Gliders Link again and this is factual. Which now means further your scenerio has severe security risks of being discovered 
1 By MI6 Mole in Hamburg. Transmitting information to British Inteligence. Or
2 British Intelligence have already cracked Abwehr Codes and are reading Transcripts and Messages from Abwehr as from 1940 to 1941

And this is all factual Soren. And except for a few stuff ups royaly by British Intelligence. They have more than been a match for Abwehr as far as the Intelligence and Counter Intelligence warfare is concerned during WW2 between Abwehr and Allied Intelligence Services.

NOW AGAIN SOREN CAN YOU ACTUALLY POINT OUT ON THIS ENTIRE THREAD I CALLED YOU A NAZI. CAN YOU POINT OUT THAT I ACTUALLY CLAIMED AUSTRALIANS WERE SUPER BEINGS MEN OR OTHERWISE. AND NOW SOREN CAN YOU NOW SEE THE PROBLEMS YOUR SCENERIO HAS FROM GO TO WHOA. YOU EVEN CLAIMED I PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH. WHICH I DEFINITELY HAD NOT. AND NOW CAN YOU ADMIT THAT ABWHER AFTER READING THE THREAD BY GLIDER NOW CALLS INTO QUESTION HISTORICALLY ABWEHR'S CAPABILITIES


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## Emac44 (Mar 31, 2008)

And here is the mystery bit about Wilhelm Canaris himself. And looking through the internet on various web sites on Canaris you will find confusing data on him I would say books written about Canaris would be confusing as well. People's names keep cropping up like Dietrich BonHoeffer and Lutherian Minister Dr Hans Bermd Gisevius. Dr Hans Bermd Gisesvius is linked to Allen Dulles whilst Dulles was stationed in Bern Switzerland as an OSS Agent. You can seek this information yourself. I spent 3 hours sifting through the information.


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## Emac44 (Mar 31, 2008)

This site I found you may find interesting
Real History and the reward for traitors
Admiral Wilheim Canaris
And the other post supports the first one on Canaris

Admiral Wilhelm Canaris

From all the information I have accessed about Canaris Kolbe Osten Muller Gisevius and Bonhoffer Freebird. Plus with Allen Dulles and his papers dealing with his OSS posting to Bern in Switzedland and with MI5 and MI6 it is some what confusing to draw a complete and accurate picture what actually did happen with the Conspirators to Assasinate Hitler on 20th July 1944 and subsquent events that occured either years before and until February 1945 when Canaris and other conspirators were finally executed. Osten for example had since 1939 been involved with plots to kill Hitler. But Osten after 1942 was Canaris's Deputy in Abwehr and had according to various sources from 1942 to 1944 had contacts with the Allies and other groups opposed to the Hitler Regime in Germany. And it was Hans Bermd Gisevius who had contacted Allen Dulles in Switzerland. I had a look at the writings of Allen Dulles writen well after World War 2 when Dulles was chief of the CIA. I tried to also transfer the link to the web site of the Library of the CIA which is available on the internet but it would not download onto this site. What I will do is give the web address as follows www. cia . gov // library/ center - for - the- study - of - intelligence / csi- publications/ books- and - monographs / oss /art06 .htm. For some reason when I tried on various occassions to put in this link it wouldn't transfer across to the WW2 Warbirds site which was frustrating as it had quiet an interest material on this period of time. 

My best opinion of Canaris and his fellow Conspirators and according to the information supplied was Canaris indeed betrayed Hitler Regime all during WW2 and previous to September of 1939. He had to retain his cover as chief of Abwehr all through his period of office from 1935 to 1944 as necassary for his own survival and that of his fellow Conspirators as if the Regime had found out what Canaris and his fellow Conspirators had in mind would have been an instant death sentance. And in doing so this is where it gets confusing. The information has Canaris working as usual for Abwehr appearing to support the Regime in name only but using Abwehr to bring down the Regime. 95% of Abwehr Agents were loyal to Hitler according to some of the sources I have looked at but it was only 5% of Abwehr who were in the inner circle of Canaris's contacts he could actually trust and were implicated in the plots to assasinate Hitler.

But what is really strange is that some of the information on Canaris comes from the Jewish Library from World War 2 and Canaris is looked upon as a Rightgeous Gentile as Canaris managed to save 7 Jews from execution by the Gestapo. Canaris had gone to Himmler complaining of the Gestapo arresting 7 Abwehr Agents. These Agents were the 7 Jews already arrested. Canaris managed to have these Jews released. Took them to Abwehr had them taught basic Codes and got them out of Germany. This alone would have got him executed in Germany. Another incident involved French Officers in Tunsia captured who the Gestapo wanted to execute. Again Canaris intervened. Another incident involved Canaris approaching a US Consular Official in Turkey during the War 1943 and wishing to pass on information. This was turned down by Roosevelt himself. But from what i can glean about Canaris is that he was very much a complicated individual. But at the time I believe he had to be as his very life and those around him in his cabal's life depended on it. So it isn't as Black and White as it seems Freebird


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## Glider (Apr 15, 2008)

I am not wanting to reopen this thread but I bought a book in a second hand book shop last week on the German Intelligence Services. 
The book is called Hitlers Spies by David Kahn. ISBN 0 340 17553 2
It a big beast of 670 pages and well researched (there are 60 pages just quoting the sources). As you may have guessed it covers Hitlers Spies but also goes into considerable detail on Army, Navy, Airforce and Economic intelligence. Covering tactics, methods, what worked and what didn't, with examples of operations.
If you have an interest in this area its a book I would recommend.


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## Freebird (May 25, 2008)

Emac44 said:


> And here is the mystery bit about Wilhelm Canaris himself. And looking through the internet on various web sites on Canaris you will find confusing data on him I would say books written about Canaris would be confusing as well. People's names keep cropping up like Dietrich BonHoeffer and Lutherian Minister Dr Hans Bermd Gisevius. Dr Hans Bermd Gisesvius is linked to Allen Dulles whilst Dulles was stationed in Bern Switzerland as an OSS Agent. You can seek this information yourself. I spent 3 hours sifting through the information.



Canaris was certainly a strange charachter in the drama, it's hard to try to understand exactly his motives, what he was trying to do



Glider said:


> I am not wanting to reopen this thread but I bought a book in a second hand book shop last week on the German Intelligence Services.
> The book is called Hitlers Spies by David Kahn. ISBN 0 340 17553 2
> It a big beast of 670 pages and well researched (there are 60 pages just quoting the sources). As you may have guessed it covers Hitlers Spies but also goes into considerable detail on Army, Navy, Airforce and Economic intelligence. Covering tactics, methods, what worked and what didn't, with examples of operations.
> If you have an interest in this area its a book I would recommend.



Glider, it would be interesting to hear your opinion of the book after reading it.


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## parsifal (May 26, 2008)

Rather than dealing in this hypothetical, has any thought been given to the actual performance of the desert commandos. Historically, the British (mostly New Zealand), the Italians and the germans all raised formations for deep penetrations behind enemy lines. Without a doubt, by far the most successful were the British/New Zealand efforts, who are credited with many success stories in the three years of their existence. They were known as the Long Range Desert Groups (LRDGs) and just as an example managed to destroy well over 500 axis aircraft in the desert, and captured the impportant garrison town of Kufra, in the far south of Libya (with some help from about 500 French colonial troops). The capture of this city was pivotal in the capture of Italian East Africa, because the Italians could no longer ship aircraft spares or other emergency supplies to their colony. Without these spares (and mail), the italian Air Force in that region (who had achieved local air superiority for a while in that little known theatre, was rapidly grounded, whilst the lack of mail caused a noticeable frop in Morale in the Italian troops fighting in Eritrea.

The British LRDGs developed techniques that were highly successful, and definately not emulated by any of the rival axis formations. Modifications were carried out on the vehicles to make them capable of traversing the huge sandunes south of the coastal plain. Local knowledge, was essential, and provided by the leaders of the groups ( who pre-war had undertaken a number of explorations of the Libyan desert, and knew the lie of the land quite well) , which enable the general topography and existence of desert tracks to be known. As the exploits of the LRDG expanded , so too did their knowledge of the Libyan desert. This emphasis on local knowledge was something badly overlooked by the Germans, whilst the italains had some knowledge of their own territory, they lacked much information on the Egyptian desert. I cannot stress strongly enough that survival in the desert is dependant upon local knowledge more than anything. You need to know the lie of the land, and the effects of local conditions. And they do vary, alot,, from area to area.

Whilst the Allied LRDG formations achieved outsdtanding succeses in the desert, the axis efforts were never anywhere near as successful, I dont see how it can be claimed the Germans in Australia would be any more successful than the German LRDGs in Libya, in fact they would probably be a lot less successful


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## Freebird (May 26, 2008)

parsifal said:


> Whilst the Allied LRDG formations achieved outsdtanding succeses in the desert, the axis efforts were never anywhere near as successful, I dont see how it can be claimed the Germans in Australia would be any more successful than the German LRDGs in Libya, in fact they would probably be a lot less successful



You are correct that the Commonwealth seems to have had the best success, {although the Italian frogmen deserve mention for outstanding effort} and I put forward that this is because the UK Allies were in an inferior position for several years, and saw covert/commando operations as the best way to mislead the Axis. I am thinking of the operations against Norway, which prompted Hitler to keep a huge garrison there, tying up troops that were badly needed elsewhere, and also of the deception plans for the invasions of Normandy Sicily.

OK, Parsifal we got off track on this thread, I postulated that *commando attacks by only the Japanese would be made against Austalia*, and the German commandos would target the USA Atlantic/Gulf coasts. I agree with Glider Emac that a German operation "down under" does not make practical or military sense.

I think Glider had the right idea here.



Glider said:


> You need something more to be effective, continual small strikes that can cause significant damage, that happen again and again, spread uncertainty.
> Targets should be infrastructure based, water pumping stations, power lines, fuel pipelines, bridges, almost anything that impacts the civilian population. Anything that makes them question their goverment and what they are being told.
> 
> Attacks would be best spread over the coast forcing the defenders to spread their resources and reducing the risk to the attackers



The idea would be to cause panic among the general population, which would make the government devote considerable resources to coastal/home defence, robbing the very vital urgent requirements of the overseas missions. I know from my own Grandparents that there was a certain amount of panic and some exodus from the Canadian Pacific coast after a lone Japanese sub shot up a lighthouse on Vancouver Island.

A similar result in Australia after the Darwin raid:



Graeme said:


> As Wildcat pointed out the Darwin raid led to a panic flight of military personnel and civilians into the interior. A number of books have been published on the subject and conclude that it wasn't one of Australia's better moments in the war.


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