# AH-4 Apache vs black hawk



## bravenest0 (Nov 29, 2022)

I am curious of what you think.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2022)

Do you mean AH-64 Apache?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2022)

As for a comparison, well you really cannot compare them.

The UH-60 Black Hawk is a utility helicopter (hence the UH designation). The AH-64 Apache is an attack helicopter (hence the AH designation).

They each have two different roles and should not be compared.

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## wlewisiii (Nov 29, 2022)

bravenest0 said:


> I am curious of what you think.


One's a combat bird designed to destroy ground targets and provide air support to ground forces. 

The other's an excellent transport that I enjoyed riding on while hanging out the door with a M-60D to hand as OPFOR at Hohenfels. 

SO the real question is what's your mission? One can't do what the other can do.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2022)

wlewisiii said:


> One's a combat bird designed to destroy ground targets and provide air support to ground forces.
> 
> The other's an excellent transport that I enjoyed riding on while hanging out the door with a M-60D to hand as OPFOR at Hohenfels.
> 
> SO the real question is what's your mission? One can't do what the other can do.



Technically the Black Hawk can perform the role of the Apache. The external pylons can carry hellfire missiles.

The 160th SOAR has MH-60L DAP, which is capable of carrying configurations of the M230 Chain Gun 30 mm automatic cannon, 19-shot Hydra 70 rocket pod, AGM-114 Hellfire missiles, AIM-92 Stinger air-to-air missiles, GAU-19 gun pods, and M134 mini gun pods, M134D miniguns are used as door guns.

However this is a special operations variant, and is not standard.

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## bravenest0 (Nov 29, 2022)

Yeah true... But if we are talking about the black haws that were used after the 9-11 attacks, It will probably be the black hawk.


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## wlewisiii (Nov 29, 2022)

I could hang a hellfire under a gyrocopter (like an Army Aviation magazine proposed back around 1980) and rely on ground-based designators. 

I'd still rather have an Apache for that mission

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## bravenest0 (Nov 29, 2022)

Can people vote? The reason of this poll is for you people to vote.


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## bravenest0 (Nov 29, 2022)

wlewisiii said:


> I could hang a hellfire under a gyrocopter (like an Army Aviation magazine proposed back around 1980) and rely on ground-based designators.
> 
> I'd still rather have an Apache for that mission


Agreed.


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## wlewisiii (Nov 29, 2022)

No "None of the Above" option.

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## bravenest0 (Nov 29, 2022)

I will place that.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2022)

bravenest0 said:


> Yeah true... But if we are talking about the black haws that were used after the 9-11 attacks, It will probably be the black hawk.



What do you mean used after 9-11?

The Black Hawk has been in service since 1979.

The majority of UH-60’s are utility, transport, and medivac. They are usually armed with just two window mounted machine guns used for suppression fire. As such they cannot be compared to an AH-64 Apache which is an attack helicopter.

I was a Black Hawk Crew Chief/Door Gunner in the Army. I have over 1600 flight hours in her, including more than 600 combat flight hours.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2022)

wlewisiii said:


> I could hang a hellfire under a gyrocopter (like an Army Aviation magazine proposed back around 1980) and rely on ground-based designators.
> 
> I'd still rather have an Apache for that mission



Depends on what you are using it for. The SOAR determined the UH-60 full filled their mission more than the Apache.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2022)

bravenest0 said:


> Can people vote? The reason of this poll is for you people to vote.



I’m not going to vote because you cannot fairly compare the two aircraft. It would be like comparing a P-51D to a Cessna 172.

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## bravenest0 (Nov 29, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> What do you mean used after 9-11?
> 
> The Black Hawk has been in service since 1979.
> 
> ...


When they took out the leader of al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2022)

bravenest0 said:


> When they took out the leader of al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden.



Those were MH-60s. Still not comparable to an Apache.

You are comparing apples to oranges.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2022)

Sorry, its a terrible poll…

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## bravenest0 (Nov 29, 2022)

My bad lol.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2022)

bravenest0 said:


> My bad lol.



It’s ok. Maybe you did not know the real differences between them. No harm no foul.

A good poll will have something that people can compare and contrast.


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## bravenest0 (Nov 29, 2022)

I added some more attack helecopters.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2022)

You know what, I’ll just vote for shits and giggles.

I vote the Black Hawk simply because its my bird.

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## SaparotRob (Nov 29, 2022)

Where is the H-13?

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## bravenest0 (Nov 29, 2022)

Black hawk


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## bravenest0 (Nov 29, 2022)

AH-4 Apache


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2022)

bravenest0 said:


> Black hawk



That is not a Black Hawk…

It is a Russian Ka-50


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2022)

bravenest0 said:


> AH-4 Apache



The Apache is not the AH-4. It is the *AH-64*.

And those are not even Apaches either…


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## bravenest0 (Nov 29, 2022)

Dang it Wikipedia.


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## ThomasP (Nov 30, 2022)



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## SaparotRob (Nov 30, 2022)

I don't see any hard points.


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## Graeme (Nov 30, 2022)

As seen in a British TV series.

"If it has one rotor - it's American. Two rotors - it Russian, because...."

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## special ed (Nov 30, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> I don't see any hard points.


The hard points are the ground.

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## BlackSheep (Nov 30, 2022)

Having worked with AH-1Zs and seeing the success earlier models had in air2air during the Iran/Iraq war, my vote goes to the Zulu with a nod to the UH-1Y, which is a sleeper that’ll put you to sleep.

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## tomo pauk (Nov 30, 2022)

BlackSheep said:


> Having worked with AH-1Zs and seeing the success earlier models had in air2air during the Iran/Iraq war



(my bold)
I wonder whether if there is a more detailed and/or reputable account on the air-to-air combat of the helicopters during the I-I war that the short Wikipedia passage.


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## BlackSheep (Nov 30, 2022)

tomo pauk said:


> (my bold)
> I wonder whether if there is a more detailed and/or reputable account on the air-to-air combat of the helicopters during the I-I war that the short Wikipedia passage.


What subject is this Wikipedia passage found under? It’s been so long since I read about the Iran/Iraq war, I don’t remember the book.


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## tomo pauk (Nov 30, 2022)

BlackSheep said:


> What subject is this Wikipedia passage found under? It’s been so long since I read about the Iran/Iraq war, I don’t remember the book.



Here.


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## Macandy (Nov 30, 2022)

Airwolf would own them all

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## Snautzer01 (Nov 30, 2022)

Macandy said:


> Airwolf would own them all


All we need is Frank Murphy. And Blue Thunder.

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## Wurger (Nov 30, 2022)



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## Snautzer01 (Nov 30, 2022)

Wurger said:


> View attachment 696685


And we have winner. Yeeehhaaa.

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## SaparotRob (Nov 30, 2022)

I went with the Blackhawk in case I post something "ban-able" later and I need an advocate.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 30, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> I went with the Blackhawk in case I post something "ban-able" later and I need an advocate.



You have posted enough pro Boeing stuff. You are safe.

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## ARTESH (Nov 30, 2022)

BlackSheep said:


> What subject is this Wikipedia passage found under? It’s been so long since I read about the Iran/Iraq war, I don’t remember the book.


There are many books written about Iran-Iraq war, but unfortunately, most of them are in Persian language. I have worked as Museum guide, in Army Military History Museum at Saadabad complex, and as assistant translator with Army's military history bureau.

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## ARTESH (Nov 30, 2022)

bravenest0 said:


> I am curious of what you think.


Mate, as others mentioned, these are different types of Helicopters, and even from different time periods. I'm not an expert in this field, and had only a single short trip with AB-205 during my time in Army.

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## BlackSheep (Nov 30, 2022)

tomo pauk said:


> Here.


Thanks, that’s pretty much what I remember although worded differently, basic details are the same.


Does anyone remember where the AH-1 juked a Hind into losing control and crashing? I believe it was on the West German border, but, it’s been years since I’ve heard that story.

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## BlackSheep (Nov 30, 2022)

BlackSheep said:


> Thanks, that’s pretty much what I remember although worded differently, basic details are the same.
> 
> 
> Does anyone remember where the AH-1 juked a Hind into losing control and crashing? I believe it was on the West German border, but, it’s been years since I’ve heard that story.


Found it.
An American AH-1 and a Russian Hind were shadowing each other on the German border. Pilots being pilots, they began to chase each other, when the AH-1 sped ahead, prompting the faster Hind to catch up. As the Hind closed the distance, the Cobra pulled up in a sudden climb which the Hind pilot attempted to follow but only succeeded in causing his craft to tumble. Nosing forward into a dive to regain control, the Hind pilot overcompensated as he pulled out of the dive causing the rotor to impact the tail boom sending the craft down and killing all onboard. After this incident, Soviet helicopters were forbidden from flying close to the border.

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## BlackSheep (Nov 30, 2022)

wlewisiii said:


> I could hang a hellfire under a gyrocopter (like an Army Aviation magazine proposed back around 1980) and rely on ground-based designators.
> 
> I'd still rather have an Apache for that mission


Remember the Israeli tests of ultralight aircraft against tanks? Flights of 4 against individual tanks produced a kill every time, 1 tank and one Israeli ultra-light. 😂 Time and place, I guess. Remember, the Palestinians infiltrated Israel on powered hang gliders, carrying kit, in the late ‘80s.

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## GrauGeist (Nov 30, 2022)

I see no mention of the Mi-24D, which bring serious trouble.

But I'm partial to the AH-1...


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## BlackSheep (Dec 1, 2022)

ARTESH said:


> Mate, as others mentioned, these are different types of Helicopters, and even from different time periods. I'm not an expert in this field, and had only a single short trip with AB-205 during my time in Army.


UH-1?


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## BlackSheep (Dec 1, 2022)

ARTESH said:


> There are many books written about Iran-Iraq war, but unfortunately, most of them are in Persian language. I have worked as Museum guide, in Army Military History Museum at Saadabad complex, and as assistant translator with Army's military history bureau.


On a whim, I did a quick google search and although I didn’t find the museum you named above, I saw one called Shahram Palace, which had a quite interesting take on the military equipment displays and showed a little bit of everything like an early war Panzer a late Sherman, and something Soviet, talk about diversity. I have to admit the architecture of many of the destinations shown was amazing and the Wildlife and Nature Museum of Dar Abad looked to rival anything in the states, even my local Cabelas 😂.

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## Wurger (Dec 1, 2022)

BlackSheep said:


> On a whim, I did a quick google search and although I didn’t find the museum you named above, I saw one called Shahram Palace, which had a quite interesting take on the military equipment displays and showed a little bit of everything like an early war Panzer a late Sherman, and something Soviet, talk about diversity. I have to admit the architecture of many of the destinations shown was amazing and the Wildlife and Nature Museum of Dar Abad looked to rival anything in the states, even my local Cabelas 😂.



The Shahram Palace, Royal Weapons Museum and the Saadabad complex that's the same place. Also the Mellat Museum was there.









https://www.alaedin.travel/en/attractions/iran/tehran/military-museum

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## ARTESH (Dec 1, 2022)

BlackSheep said:


> On a whim, I did a quick google search and although I didn’t find the museum you named above, I saw one called Shahram Palace, which had a quite interesting take on the military equipment displays and showed a little bit of everything like an early war Panzer a late Sherman, and something Soviet, talk about diversity. I have to admit the architecture of many of the destinations shown was amazing and the Wildlife and Nature Museum of Dar Abad looked to rival anything in the states, even my local Cabelas 😂.


Yes, That`s the place. 

There are 4 Military History Museums, that are part of the Army Military History Bureau.
The Air Force Museum, is only open on special days for Air Force Pilot Cadets. 
The Navy Museum, Located in "Bandar Anzali", is open for public visitors. 
The "Afif Abad" Military Museum, in Afif Abad Complex, Shiraz, also open for public visitors.

Beside these ones, there are multiple "War" and "Sacred Defense" Museums, all around the Country.

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## ARTESH (Dec 1, 2022)

Wurger said:


> The Shahram Palace, Royal Weapons Museum and the Saadabad complex that's the same place. Also the Mellat Museum was there.
> 
> View attachment 696758
> 
> ...


Good Old Days ...

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## Wurger (Dec 1, 2022)

So .. did the museums get the new names?


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## ARTESH (Dec 1, 2022)

Wurger said:


> So .. did the museums get the new names?


Actually No! Its a little bit Complicated ...

The Museums are referred by Numbers 1 - 4, by the Army. However, each one, are generally called by the Organization or Complex, they belong or are part of.

Thats why you wont hear Museum No. 1, but either "Saadabad Military Museum" or "Shahram Palace".

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## Wurger (Dec 1, 2022)

Grasped. THX.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Dec 1, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> You have posted enough pro Boeing stuff. You are safe.



<furiously taking notes>

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## ARTESH (Dec 5, 2022)

tomo pauk said:


> (my bold)
> I wonder whether if there is a more detailed and/or reputable account on the air-to-air combat of the helicopters during the I-I war that the short Wikipedia passage.


Unfortunately, No, There is no such page in WP, However there is an incomplete list of Aerial Victories of Both Sides AFs :






List of Iranian aerial victories during the Iran–Iraq war - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org










List of Iraqi aerial victories during the Iran–Iraq war - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org

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## ww2restorer (Dec 10, 2022)

Answer is easy, they are all Helicopters.

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## BlackSheep (Dec 11, 2022)

Wurger said:


> View attachment 696685


The current administration’s Marine 1?

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 11, 2022)

BlackSheep said:


> The current administration’s Marine 1?

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 11, 2022)

While I did laugh at it, let’s knock it off with insults and disparaging comments about ANY administration (past or present). God knows enough can be said about the previous one too.

1. It has no place in this forum.

2. All it does is open a can of worms leading to arguments.

3. It will get the complete ban on politics brought back.

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## ARTESH (Dec 11, 2022)

Roger that, Chief!


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## bravenest0 (Dec 11, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> That is not a Black Hawk…
> 
> It is a Russian Ka-50


its a comparison of their power.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 11, 2022)

bravenest0 said:


> its a comparison of their power.



How? It only showed one aircraft type, and was incorrectly labeled as an Apache.


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## ARTESH (Dec 11, 2022)

bravenest0 said:


> its a comparison of their power.


To be able to compare 2 things, they must be in same category, of same type, era and technology.

You also must have some stats like speed, Weight, Engine input and output and many many more "specifications" that even I don't know about them.

You can't compare a modern day plane with WW2 era plane ... Tactics, strategies, and many more things, have changed and are changing.


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## bravenest0 (Dec 11, 2022)

I give up.

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## SaparotRob (Dec 11, 2022)

Just hang in there bravenest0. I didn't know anything when I got here. 2 years later, I still don't.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 11, 2022)

Exactly. You’ll be alright.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 11, 2022)

Nobody knows everything anyhow.


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## SaparotRob (Dec 11, 2022)

Superfire did.


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## Thumpalumpacus (Dec 11, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Nobody knows everything anyhow.



<clears throat>

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## special ed (Dec 11, 2022)

I used to but I forgot most of it. Old age is tough on memory, have you seen my keys?


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## Thumpalumpacus (Dec 11, 2022)

special ed said:


> I used to but I forgot most of it. Old age is tough on memory, have you seen my keys?



F# minor or B major?

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## GrauGeist (Dec 11, 2022)

special ed said:


> I used to but I forgot most of it. Old age is tough on memory, have you seen my keys?


They're somewhere near Florida..

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## Snautzer01 (Dec 12, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> They're somewhere near Florida..


Ahh the key of Florida-you it will be 

 Thumpalumpacus
.

Bit punky but there it is.

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## Snautzer01 (Dec 12, 2022)

bravenest0 said:


> I give up.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Dec 12, 2022)

Snautzer01 said:


> Bit punky but there it is.



Said Johnny Rotten, "I play in the key of loud."

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