# Alternate History book ideas



## Kai Stemm (Sep 21, 2017)

I have had a project that I have been trying to find time for, and that project is an alternate history "novel" (more like short story). I have 2 wars I want to write about, the Napoleonic Wars, and WW2. I am just asking for ideas on time line changes, (like if Russia sided with Germany). Thanks All


----------



## parsifal (Sep 22, 2017)

what alternative outcome might you be looking for?


some ideas might be


early entry of the US
no promises to Poland
Allies go to war over Czechoslovakia
Russia joins the allies in 1939
Manstein given theatre control of the entire eastern front from 1943
Germans avoid Stalingrad
no summer offensive in 1942
Germans build uboats not battleships
Japan attacks the USSR....the strike north policy
Ultra and MAGIC discovered
Spain joins the axis 1940

The possibilities are endless


----------



## buffnut453 (Sep 22, 2017)

July 1940 - Luftwaffe continues to focus on radar sites and airfields protecting London, prompting 11 Group to retreat and leaving London exposed. Churchill faces vote of no confidence in Parliament and is replaced by a leader who seeks to do a deal with Hitler to prevent a forced invasion.


----------



## vikingBerserker (Sep 22, 2017)

Germany invades Russia and acts like a savior to the Russian citizens, then once Stalin is overthrown they began their purges.


----------



## buffnut453 (Sep 22, 2017)

Japan assesses that America won't enter the war on the side of Britain if unprovoked and so decides not to attack Pearl Harbor and the Philippines, instead sticking with a more limited, focused initial assault on Malaya, Thailand and Burma in December 1941.


----------



## vikingBerserker (Sep 22, 2017)

Napoleonic War & WWII: The Russian Winters that occurred both times never happened


----------



## parsifal (Sep 23, 2017)

Stalin believes the intel reports he is receiving from his spies like Richard Sorge


The Germans discover the source of the leaks from their high command before Kursk, the so called lucy ring

The IJN changes its JN25 codes as had been planned in april 1942. no special intel for the USN for at least another 3 months.


----------



## Thorlifter (Sep 24, 2017)

You must be a fan of the show "Man in the High Castle"

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## swampyankee (Sep 24, 2017)

Beer Hall putsch punished seriously; nazis hanged for treason.

Italy sides with Allies.

Turkey enters war.

France stands.

so it's not too one-sided: 

South Africa joins Axis.


----------



## swampyankee (Sep 24, 2017)

buffnut453 said:


> Japan assesses that America won't enter the war on the side of Britain if unprovoked and so decides not to attack Pearl Harbor and the Philippines, instead sticking with a more limited, focused initial assault on Malaya, Thailand and Burma in December 1941.



Kaiser Bill managed to get US involved with isolationist Wilson. Ribbentrop would get US involved quicker.


----------



## vikingBerserker (Sep 25, 2017)

Way back early in the US's History, a debate was made about whether or not English should be dumped as the semi-official language and replaced with German (to stick it to the king). What if German was adopted.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## swampyankee (Sep 28, 2017)

How about Ireland joins Allies?


----------



## MIflyer (Sep 28, 2017)

I have been playing around with writing an alternate history novel that includes an American Volunteer Group being formed in response to the sinking of a US destroyer by a U-boat early in 1940. Equipped with early P-40's and P-36's they aid the RAF in the BoB.


----------



## buffnut453 (Sep 28, 2017)

The AVG in China was unique due to a number of factors, not least of which being the push for an "International Air Force" composed of aircraft and pilots from the major powers to defend against bombing of cities. The IAF never came to fruition but the AVG (and the planned British Volunteer Wing) were embodiments of it. The other interesting observation about the AVG is that it was largely autonomous in operation. It seldom operated in concert with other Chinese Air Force assets.

Both the above features militate against an alternate history where an AVG-like organization supports the RAF in the BoB. Firstly, Dowding would never have allowed an autonomously-operating foreign force within his command structure. The whole point of Fighter Command was to blunt what were, for the time, massive air raids and that's hard to do if one Wing-sized component is doing its own thing off to the side.

We must also consider that the P-40 and P-36 were not suited to the higher-altitude combat conditions prevalent...and that's assuming the P-40 could be made combat-ready in mid-1940, which is a big question. Then there's the question of armament and keeping the 50cal guns of an AVG-like unit resupplied when every other squadron in Fighter Command uses .303 ammunition.

Sorry if this sounds like I'm pouring cold water on your idea but I think there are more plausible (and, frankly, more interesting) alternate history ideas out there, several of which have been raised on this thread.

Now...if you want an AVG-centric alternate history, writing about the proposed British Volunteer Wing operating alongside the AVG in China would be a good one.


----------



## MIflyer (Sep 28, 2017)

Well, who says the "AVG" in the BoB would be at all like the AVG in China? I envision it comprised of USAAC pilots, still in US service, under a American commander (a Doolittle or Turner type) operating within the RAF command structure. And this is Science Fiction so I can easily envision P-40's being combat capable by June 1940, although still with the altitude limitations. In any case this is but a small prelude to the main part of the book that I have yet to write.

As far as the RAF. note that when the Repulse and Prince of Wales were attacked by unescorted IJN bombers there was at least one squadron of Brewster Buffaloes fired up, ready to launch and well within range, with others that could have been called on. The commander of the RN force asked for air cover for his ships when they engaged the IJN invasion force. When the RAF replied they could not do that, he seemingly put air cover out of his thoughts and did not ask for air cover and sent radio calls only after they were under attack. Even a dozen Buffaloes arriving as the IJN started their torpedo attack could have spoiled the party.


----------



## buffnut453 (Sep 28, 2017)

If the pilots are still in USAAC service then the US would have had to declare war against Germany...and if that's the case, why bother with an AVG-like construct? A mechanism for getting American pilots into the European fight ahead of US entry into the war was developed in late 1940 called the Eagle Squadrons but they were entirely under RAF command. 

As to the P-40, if it had altitude limitations, then it would be of little, if any use, under the conditions prevalent at the time. All it would do is use up fuel and other resources without contributing to the fight. As such, I doubt very much whether it would have been used.

The story of HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse is a sad one, and a classic example of miscommunication. Prior to sailing, Admiral Phillips asked the RAF in Singapore to provide air cover. The RAF commander stated that he couldn't guarantee air cover over northern Malaya which Phillips took to mean that the RAF couldn't provide ANY cover ANYWHERE. It proved to be a fatal mistake. Phillips never called for RAF support even after he knew his force had been sighted by the Japanese, indeed it was only once the ships were under attack that one of Phillips subordinates sent the message to AHQFE asking for fighter support...but by then it was too late.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## swampyankee (Sep 28, 2017)

MIflyer said:


> I have been playing around with writing an alternate history novel that includes an American Volunteer Group being formed in response to the sinking of a US destroyer by a U-boat early in 1940. Equipped with early P-40's and P-36's they aid the RAF in the BoB.



The US had a "special" relationship with China which predated the American Civil War, which was not a relationship of equals by 1900 and continued that way to the eve of WWII, with a large contingent of Marines resident in Shanghai for decades.


----------



## Shortround6 (Sep 28, 2017)

MIflyer said:


> I have been playing around with writing an alternate history novel that includes an American Volunteer Group being formed in response to the sinking of a US destroyer by a U-boat early in 1940. Equipped with early P-40's and P-36's they aid the RAF in the BoB.


 I guess it depends on how technical you want to get.
Problems with the P-40 include
1. _timing_.
First production P-40 is Flown April 4th 1940. Army agrees to to defer delivery of 324 P-40s in order for export version/s to be delivered early. Production of P-40s ( acceptance and production don't always agree) is 11 in May 1940, 25 in June, 56 in July, 104 in August, 114 in Sept, 135 in Oct. Please remember that the Curtiss factory is in Buffalo NY at the East end of Lake Erie. Planes have to be partially disassembled after test flights, crated and either sent down the St, Laurence river/seaway or sent by railroad to an east coast port. sent to england by ship, re-assembled, test flown and then issued to using units. 
Please note that any grabs of aircraft from French/British orders would simply diminish the number of planes the British eventually got. 1st Tomahawk reaches the UK in Sept 1940. By the end of Sept the US has received 200 P-40s including all 114 of Septembers production. 
By the end of the year Curtiss has built 778 P-40s, of which 558 are French/British Tomahawks. 
2. engines.
Early Allison C-15 engines had problems, in US service the first 228 engines had to be sent back to the factory to be "reworked" and unitl such work was done they were restricted to 2770rpm and 950hp, this also affected altitude performance.
3. The early aircraft, no matter whos, had no armor and no self sealing fuel tanks. This may be the most easy problem to solve in fiction _BUT.
4. _Early performance figures for P-40 aircraft were done at an unrealistically low gross weight. See
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-40/P-40_Official_Summary_of_Characteristics.pdf

Gross weight included only 120 US gallons of gas and oil to match.(filling the rear tank to capacity meant 181 gallons but might mean CG problems) the 370lbs of armament pretty much covers the two .50 cal guns in the cowl with less than 200rpg and a single .30 cal gun in each wing with 500rpg. 
A P-40B with full fuselage ammo (admittedly too much ammo) and four wing guns with 500rpg had 600lbs of armament. 
Add armor, BP glass and self sealing tanks (even on just the wing tanks) and you get?????

I guess it depends on how much artistic license you use.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 28, 2017)

Thorlifter said:


> You must be a fan of the show "Man in the High Castle"



Love that show.

Big fan of Harry Turttledove and Douglas Niles as well.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## swampyankee (Sep 30, 2017)

Not a big fan of Turtledove, although I do think he's quite a good writer. 

A couple of alt-history ideas that I've not seen investigated. One that I think is not terribly unlikely is for Turkey to join the Allies -- I heard one podcast historian (I think it was Ray Harris's) claim that this was close to happening during the invasion of Greece (giving the history among Greece, Turkey, and Italy, I'm not sure whether Turkey would pile in on Greece or join the Allies to spite Italy after the Italo-Turkish War of 1911-12. Internal dithering would probably result in neither). Another is for Ireland to join the Allies (I think it unlikely for them to join the Axis -- over 50,000 Irish men joined the British military and merchant navy -- and very few joined the Germans)


----------



## MIflyer (Oct 2, 2017)

Turkey might be more important than you'd think. The country had supplies of nickel ore, which Germany lacked and desperately needed to build jet engines. The Me-262 was never going to be a significant threat.due to the lack of nickel.


----------



## swampyankee (Oct 3, 2017)

MIflyer said:


> Turkey might be more important than you'd think. The country had supplies of nickel ore, which Germany lacked and desperately needed to build jet engines. The Me-262 was never going to be a significant threat.due to the lack of nickel.




Surprised Germany didn't invade, then.


----------



## Shortround6 (Oct 3, 2017)

They thought about it, but the Bosporus would have stopped them from taking most of Turkey


----------



## parsifal (Oct 4, 2017)

swampyankee said:


> Surprised Germany didn't invade, then.



Turkey was saved by her position and hitlers impatience

In 1939, the Turkish leadership was careful to tread a careful path of neutrality, concluding treties with both sides, purchasing military equipment from both sides and observing rules of neutrality.

Throughout 1939 and 1940 the germans were pre-occupied in achieving some of their critical war aims. It was essential that they defeat the western allies and with the single major exception of the boB they were largely successful. In the Balkans and North Africa, a free hand was given to the Italians who suffered losses and heavy defeats, but this was not foreseen at the time. Germany’s involvement in the Balkans and North Africa was grudging and never seen as more than a holding action by them. They were unwilling to put large resources into this TO, despite some hard lobbying by some like Raeder to do just that. The last thing they wanted to do in the lead up to Barbarossa was to open up yet another TO that would drain their reserves and dissipate their forces. Moreover, in the upcoming battle of annihilation expected in the opening rounds against the SU, they did not envision deep inroads into Russian territory. Certainly not as far as the Caucasus.

The turks were aware of this and feared a soviet war more than they feared a german invasion. They had lost more than a million men in their war with the Russian in WWI and expected similar outcomes if they joined the war against Stalin.

Moreover, after 22 June the Germans were not in a position to economically influence the turks.after their treachery with the Soviets they ran their economy on looted resources and an artificial cash exchange rate that heavily favoured Germany. Turkey remained committed to exporting raw materials to Germany, mostly in exchange for goods instead of cash, but increasingly her trade swung to the allies as their terms of trade were far more equitable

The Germans did conclude a four year non-aggression pact with Turkey from 18 june 1941, which lasted about as long as it took for the Soviets to drive the Germans out of the Balkans. In late 1944 the turks terminated their economic agreements with Germany, and in early 1945 they finally declared war on the rogue state.

It was not all plain sailing with the allies. The British in particular got testy with Inonu. The allies were failry justified to be annoyed. By early 1944 they had nearly motorized the entire army, provided some thousands of tanks to them as well as vast amounts of aircraft as incentives to join the allies. It was to no avail, and I have to agree with the turks that their best course of action was to stay out of it for as long as they could


----------



## MIflyer (Oct 8, 2017)

The Allies simply bought all of Turkey's nickel ore, even though with the huge Canadian supplies available they probably did not need it. There was a nickel mine in northern Finland but it was appears to have been quite hard to get to. Back around the year 2000 the Russians were even considering converting a Typhoon class sub into a nickel ore carrier to enable them to access the ore in the polar region.

If you are going to have the Germans build a lot of operational Me-262's with engines that will last more than 25 hours you better have them discover nickel in Greece, where it was found after the war.

Reactions: Useful Useful:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## HealzDevo (Apr 29, 2018)

A good WW2 Alternative History would be to look at what would have happened if a massive number of experienced Russian generals hadn't been killed by Stalin. A large part of the early WW2 battles were fought by generals who had extremely limited experience. I think in this timeline Operation Barbarossa may have gone worse for Germany. A lot of WW2 German early war victories were against enemies confused and divided. In this timeline a massive number of Eastern Front Battles may move closer and closer to Italy and Germany. Indeed in this timeline rushed D-Day landings may be made by the Allied Forces to stop Russia taking pretty well the whole of Europe.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------

