# Can any NATO birds do this? - SU-30



## comiso90 (Jan 29, 2007)

This is a video of an in-flight demonstration flown by the Russian SU-30MK fighter aircraft. You'll not believe what you are about to see.
The fighter can stall from high speed, stopping in less than a second. Then it demonstrates an ability to descend tail first without causing a compressor stall. It can also recover from a flat spin in less than a minute.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 29, 2007)

Yeap the F-22 sure can. I have seen the Suhkoi fly at the Paris Airshow and the Air Feat in England.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 29, 2007)

Impressive but little use in combat. My father in law once told me he wished he had the opportunity to see some pilot do that in front of him while he was in an F-15 or even an F-5.


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## Glider (Jan 29, 2007)

Impressive definately


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## comiso90 (Jan 29, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Impressive but little use in combat. My father in law once told me he wished he had the opportunity to see some pilot do that in front of him while he was in an F-15 or even an F-5.



How manuverable is "manuverable enough" anyway? It seems as though vector thrust manuvers just may create a greater heat signature for missles. If maneuverabilty was paramount, bi-planes would have ruled the skies in WW2.

It will be interesting to see the types of tactics and counter tactics evolve.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 29, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> How manuverable is "manuverable enough" anyway? It seems as though vector thrust manuvers just may create a greater heat signature for missles. If maneuverabilty was paramount, bi-planes would have ruled the skies in WW2.
> 
> It will be interesting to see the types of tactics and counter tactics evolve.


Maneuverable enough? just enough to out- maneuver your opponent (if that makes sense)

Forget the missiles - pull something like that at say 3000 yards with gun lock and the thing would look like Swiss cheese! That's what my father in law was talking about!


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## Matt308 (Jan 29, 2007)

Only real-world application of said maneuver is for high off bore axis snapshots and fast 90 degree trajectory changes to fool pulse doppler radar. Tail sliding is for...ready mkloby...acrobatics.


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## mkloby (Jan 29, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Maneuverable enough? just enough to out- maneuver your opponent (if that makes sense)
> 
> Forget the missiles - pull something like that at say 3000 yards with gun lock and the thing would look like Swiss cheese! That's what my father in law was talking about!



Well - I've said it before... Russian aircraft are notorious for having weak avionics. All that fancy pants aerobatics ain't gonna save your a** in an engagement. Part of the Top Gun syndrome that many jet jocks and wannabees suffer from. What about when you're being engaged before you know that any bandits are nearby! Speaking of which - was doing bounces with a bunch of T-45's in the pattern at one of our fields today, in my less than sexy C-12. Had to land after their arresting gear because that'll smoke our gear!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 31, 2007)

you can't deny that manouvability like that wont be usefull in a fight, you can't say those moves aren't amazing!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 31, 2007)

They certainly are, but the only place you would do them at would be at an airshow.


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## Matt308 (Jan 31, 2007)

Perhaps those specific moves (ie The Cobra). However, the ability to make radical changes in AOA while maintaining flight direction is useful for making off bore snapshots. Also, doppler radar defense also can make use of ability to change the defenders flight profile to being perpendicular to the doppler radar's 2-D planar emission. Thus in hope of spoiling ability of the doppler radar to maintain "lock". With missiles like the AIM-9X high off bore snapshots only become a guns issue and with AESA, not sure if the latter becomes superfluous.


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## Udet (Jan 31, 2007)

I wonder if Russia has the financial capabilities to put the Berkut into mass production though.

However flyboyj hit the nail...the ship might make an impressive acrobat, but how would that help the Berkut when engaging say USAF latest ships in real combat...


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## mkloby (Jan 31, 2007)

Udet said:


> I wonder if Russia has the financial capabilities to put the Berkut into mass production though.
> 
> However flyboyj hit the nail...the ship might make an impressive acrobat, but how would that help the Berkut when engaging say USAF latest ships in real combat...



Ha - easy. They won't!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 31, 2007)

they'll never get the chance, although economically Russia's on the up they still can't afford a sizeable airforce......


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## GregP (Feb 3, 2007)

The Pugachev Cobra is interesting, but useless in combat.

The user of the Cobra MAY get a kill, but he just lost most of his airspeed and is virtually standing still when the wingman's AAM hits him or the wingman's cannon chews him to bits.

Interesting, but useless.

Now, it HAS it places or the F-22 and Su-27 (and family) wouldn't HAVE the movable nozzles. When you are at high altitude and need to out-turn your opponent in thin atmosphere to get a shot, it IS useful. Except for that, it is nice at an airshow, as stated above, but uselss in combat.

In a real fight with the F-22, the Su-27's problem would be that same as the F-15's problem - getting shot down before you know an opponent is around.

Once the battle is joined and both are in daylight in sight of each other, then stealth doesn't count and the Su-27 (and family) probably have an advantage or at LEAST an even shot at the Raptor. That being said, that is the reason that the F-22's don't LET an opponent get a good look. 

Oh yeah, we MIGHT remember thath the Sukhoi has nozzles that swivel up, down, left, and right. The F-22 only swivels up and down.

That means the Raptor drivers don't EVER intend to get slow enough to need to yaw with thrust vectoring. They kill bogies BVR (beyond visual range).


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