# Was the Bf-110G-4 one of the greatest nightfighters?



## carman1877 (Dec 7, 2009)

Do you think that the Bf-110G-4 was one of the best nighfighters of World War Two because I have looked at several different sources and the story of Wolfgang Schnaufer who claimed about 114 or more aerial victories with this aircraft. What do you think and why?


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## piet (Dec 7, 2009)

121 aerial victories off wich where 114 four engines bombers!

Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer and his crew, trhee knights crosses in one cockpit!

Piet

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## carman1877 (Dec 7, 2009)

Yeah thats right the other ones were Wellington bombers I think.


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## Erich (Dec 7, 2009)

yes it has to be as it was in all of the NJG's early war until changes with the use of He 219 in small numbers, Do 217's and the Ju 88 variants. One must also look at the kill ratio with this bird, more than any other Allied or LW fighter for night fighter work.


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## jamierd (Dec 8, 2009)

yes and i am not biased even a little bit lol


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## imalko (Dec 8, 2009)

No argument here. I agree with everyone above.


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## Glider (Dec 8, 2009)

It has to be


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## tango35 (Dec 8, 2009)

After the Me 110 was outphased after BoB it became a good nightfighte and i have to agree with all of you; but for me the greatest nightfighter is the Heinkel He 219 or Ta 154. Unfortunately like other technical developments they came too late and were too few to show big results.


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## davebender (Dec 8, 2009)

The historical combat results speak for themselves.


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## parsifal (Dec 8, 2009)

I dont think there is any doubt here, it was a great nightfighter. Too many downed RAF Heavies to say otherwise. 

But it could be beaten, as the Mosquito intruder operations demonstrated.


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## Maximowitz (Dec 8, 2009)

Of course.


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## beaupower32 (Dec 8, 2009)

A still from gun camera footage showing a Bf-110 of an unknown unit under fire from an RAF night fighter





Oblt. Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer of 12./NJG1 photographed at St. Trond in February 1944 with the tail of his Bf-110G, WNr. 720260, which was then marked with 47 victory bars. The last of these victories were all claimed on the night of 15/16 February when, between 22.58 and 23.33 hrs, Schnaufer shot down three Lancasters. Schnaufer ended the war with the rank of Major and a total of 121 night victories claimed in only 164 sorties. He was awarded the Ritterkreuz in December 1943, the Oak Leaves in June 1944, the Swords a month later and the Diamonds on 16 October 1944 when he reached 100 victories. Post-war, Schnaufer was seriously injured in a road accident in France on 13 July 1950 and died two days later. 

I think the Bf-110 was a great night fighter, and the records prove it. The airframe was adaptable to many different weapon load outs, especially the Schräge Musik.

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## Maximowitz (Dec 8, 2009)

Thanks for that Beau, interesting picture. There's some frames of gun camera photos of a Bf 110 shooting down an Avro Manchester in Dr Theo Boiten's excellent "Nachtjagd War Diaries." Unfortunately I have no scanner to reproduce them here.


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## tomo pauk (Dec 8, 2009)

beaupower32 said:


> ...
> 
> I think the Bf-110 was a great night fighter, and the records prove it. The airframe was adaptable to many different weapon load outs,* especially the Schräge Musik*.



I have trouble to find data about 110 wielding the Schraege Musik. Any info?


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## davebender (Dec 8, 2009)

That's true too. Once again the historical combat results speak for themselves.

However the Me-110 night fighter program did not get the same level of resources as the Ju-88 night fighter program. The follow-on Me-210 / Me-410 was designed as a light bomber complete with dive brakes and a decent size bomb bay. 

It is interesting to contemplate what a Me-110 night fighter follow-on might look like. Probably similiar to the Me-210C. However....
No bomb bay.
No dive brakes.
No structural strengthening necessary for dive bombing.
No rear firing weapons. The rear gunner is now a radar operator.
The end result is considerably lighter then the Me-210C. This hypothetical Me-210 night fighter will likely be a 400+ mph aircraft similiar in performance to the Mosquito night fighter.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 8, 2009)

Based off of its achievements, it has to be one of the best. Can't really argue it in my opinion.


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## beaupower32 (Dec 8, 2009)

tomo pauk said:


> I have trouble to find data about 110 wielding the Schraege Musik. Any info?



Here is a manual on the Bf-110 G-4 with detail towards the Schraege Musik installed. Dont know exactly what data your looking for. Can you give me a little bit of detail towards what ya want.


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## Marcel (Dec 9, 2009)

What defines a great nightfighter? Were there any lousy nightfighters (apart from the ones without radar)?


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## Erich (Dec 9, 2009)

yes Fw 189 for one


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## Marcel (Dec 9, 2009)

Erich said:


> yes Fw 189 for one



Why was that Erich? (I'm not that much into nightfighters  )


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## Erich (Dec 9, 2009)

I would say the unit although slow and used on the Ost front by NJG100 to try and catch Soviet bi-planes, nah crap use with a Lich. radar array to weigh it down and get in the way, the plane was good for staff transport and that is about it. also do not think the Fw 190A variants were any good as well as a NF but of course had to be used, could take down a BC bomber easier than a Bf 109G-6 even with underwing gondolas but neither were set up as a good mount for FuG 217 and 218 radar systems, the pilot had other distractions in the air instead of trying to glue his eyes to a scope pattern.


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## Lucky13 (Dec 9, 2009)

No argument from me fellas!


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## davebender (Dec 9, 2009)

price data for 1941 for some German aircraft types, via Olaf Groehlers GdLK, 1910-1980:
_Without engine / with engine, in Reichsmarks (RM)_
Bf 110C : 155 800 / 210 140
Ju 88A : 245 200 / 306 950

Late war prices for the Me-110G and Ju-88G will be different but I suspect the price ratio is similiar. The Ju-88 costs 50% more then a Me-110. Something to think about as we debate the merits of these aircraft as night fighters.


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## parsifal (Dec 9, 2009)

I think the Blenheim 1F, fitted with the early mk of AI radar was pretty ordinary. A book I am reading about operations in 1940-41 shows that time and again it was just too slow to catch the German night intruders over the British Isles


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## tomo pauk (Dec 9, 2009)

beaupower32 said:


> Here is a manual on the Bf-110 G-4 with detail towards the Schraege Musik installed. Dont know exactly what data your looking for. Can you give me a little bit of detail towards what ya want.



Wow, that's cool, it answers my question  

Seems one has always something new to learn.


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## Maximowitz (Dec 9, 2009)

parsifal said:


> I think the Blenheim 1F, fitted with the early mk of AI radar was pretty ordinary. A book I am reading about operations in 1940-41 shows that time and again it was just too slow to catch the German night intruders over the British Isles



May I ask the title of the book? I think I'd be interested in reading it too.


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## Erich (Dec 9, 2009)

Dave I am thinking though the Ju 88G-6 far outlasted and outclassed the even late war Bf 110G-4 the extra armor what there was of it, more powerful engines the extra crew-member as radar operator and extra eyes for Allied NF's in a hopeful non crowded sphere, though it was still cramped, guns housed below the fuselage so it would not blind the crew, much better visibility over all, longer range, on it goes.........

think the Soviet A/C arsenal for night fighter ops could be lumped in here as well. But in this case think it was not of concern and with that not pursued as it should of been through development.


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## davebender (Dec 9, 2009)

> Ju 88G-6 far outlasted and outclassed the even late war Bf 110G-4


I don't doubt it. However the Ju-88 night fighter program received serious funding for research and development right to the end of the war. It appears to me the Me-110 program received crumbs by comparison. Development practically stopped during 1942 when the Me-210 entered production.

What could the Me-110G or Me-110H night fighter have become with the same level of program resources? Give it the aerodynamic improvements incorporated into the Me-210 series to improve speed but skip all features assocated with bombing.


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## Erich (Dec 9, 2009)

not much really with only two crewmen. the writing was on the wall by late 43 one of the detriments of the He 219 was the radar operator could not watch the tail of the a/c having to keep his eyes glued to the scope, sadly not all Uhu's were fitted with tail warning radar right up to the end, something I could never understand


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