# PVAF MiGs vs USAF and USN



## kettbo (Aug 22, 2013)

Have read CLASHES by Mitchel several times, AWESOME BOOK. I have a stack of Osprey booklets (some better than others) on the Units and Duels of the conflict, even struggled through Boniface's MiG's over Vietnam....

Some questions
1. Did the PVAF ever use Heat Seeking missiles from their MiG-17s? Every now and then I hear something....wondering if HS missiles on PVAF 'some' or 'later' MiG-17s is urban myth. Maybe I'm thinking of Middle East MiG-17 upgrade. Any help appreciated.

2. Noted the MiG-21F-13 carried only one onboard cannon, gave up the second cannon for HS Missile equipment. I know the MiG-21MF came with the belly cannon. Is there any solid evidence that the GP-9 recessed gun pack option was used by the PVAF on the few PF or numerous PFM versions in their inventory?

3. I recall the Earlier MiG-21s were limited to 600kt below 12k ft due to fuel pump issues. I understand this was fixed in the MiG-21MF. Any info contrary to this?

Am recovering from a heart attack and bypass surgery roughly a month ago...dusted off some books and started looking at my substantial aircraft miniatures RAIDEN MINIATURES to release the F-105 that I did the master for, also an RB-66.


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## GregP (Aug 22, 2013)

If they didn't have external fuel tanks, the MiG-21 might have been limited to 600 knots due to runing out of fuel when it reached 600 knots. If there ever was a fuel-critical aircraft in the world, the MiG-21 was it! You're tearing all over the sky with little to no forward view and afuel gauge that you can see wind down rather quickly. Missing an approach might lead to a flameout crash when the go-juice was gone!

It is supposed to have been a great-flying ship, as was the Sukhoi Su-15, but very short legged.

Like many aircraft designed as interceptors, the MiG-21 had a short range. This was not helped by a design defect where the center of gravity shifted rearwards once two-thirds of the fuel had been used. This had the effect of making the plane uncontrollable, resulting in an endurance of only 45 minutes in clean condition ... IF you stayed out of afterbirner. The issue of the short endurance and low fuel capacity of the MiG-21F, PF, PFM, S/SM and M/MF variants, though each had a somewhat greater fuel capacity than its predecessor, led to the development of the MT and SMT variants. These had a range increase of 250 km (155 mi) compared to the MiG-21SM, but at the cost of worsening all other performance figures, such as a lower service ceiling and slower time to altitude.

I'd have to go digging to anwer your questions. I'll see what I can find.

Surgery is no fun under the BEST of circumstances. Speedy revcovery to you, kettbo.


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## Matt308 (Aug 22, 2013)

Yes, hope you can recover and continue to contribute. I wondered where you have been. Best.


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## Coyote (Aug 22, 2013)

Best of luck with the health issues. Clashes IS an awesome book. One of my favs. The Mig-21 was a bad ass design. Simple, sleek and deadly. I have always wondered if the Mig-19 and 21s had been in the hands of equal pilots to ours and had proper leadership (ground control and so forth) ; Just how good were these aircraft. I personally think if a war between NATO and the Warsaw pact would have broken out, NATO woulda had its hands full. Sorry if a bit off topic.


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## Shortround6 (Aug 22, 2013)

Best wishes for best possible recovery.


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## silence (Aug 22, 2013)

Talking planes is the best therapy (outside the bedroom!). (Can I say that here?)


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 22, 2013)

"And Kill MiGs" by Lou Drendel is a good source of information on the air war over Vietnam.

I've worked around both aircraft - ingenuity and crudeness all in one, but you've probably heard that before.

MiG-17 - refined MiG-15 fuselage with an afterburner that just dumps tons of fuel into the tail pipe. If flown conservatively without drop tanks I think you could probably get between 350 - 450 miles out of it. Many systems are the same or similar as the MiG-15 and could be found in in later trainer aircraft (L29, L39, Iskra). AFAIK the -17 was used as a sniper, MiG-21s would chase lumbering bomb laden aircraft into a box and the -17s would be waiting there. Like during the Korean war, pilot skill varied. I've heard stories about a "Honcho" or two flying with the PVAF, rumors have one being KIA and an "advisor" from North Korea.

The 21 was a little bit more labor intensive. If I remember correctly if you run the aircraft low on fuel without a center line tank, the aft C/G is exceeded it aircraft could be real squirly. At full burner in an intercept role you had anywhere between 20 - 30 minutes in the air. I helped out crewing a PF model I believe originally from East Germany. The MiG-21 seemed pretty simple when compared to an F-104 (which the MiG-21 clearly dominated in clashes between India and Pakistan). IIRC the PVAF downed about 85 US aircraft in aerial combat while loosing over 200 (claimed).


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## parsifal (Aug 23, 2013)

Ive never been closer than about 80 miles from a MIG, and havent read any of those books. Bit of a problem I can see.

But we talked about MIGs all the time when I was serving during our threat assessment briefings. We believed our A-4s operating in the air warfare role could generally outperform the MIG 17 and our AIM Sidewinders gave a real edge to the Skyhawks we were using. It was a different storey with the MIG19s, and the MIG-21 was seen as having a definite advantage over anything in the RAN. The RAAF boys, with their Mirage IIIEs were of the opinion they could manage the MIG 21s.

Our Pilots were taught never to try and dogfight with any of these aircraft, so im surprised that they being so badly assessed here in that very capacity. Where these planes fell down was in their range, and their electronics. They were terrible, not to put too finer point on the issue.

These might be of some interest


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFO-jQ1Iutk_


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCmL2pkG7ZY_


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## parsifal (Aug 23, 2013)

Basic Utube footage of the MIG 19 21


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u20tHzjXMgU_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPLwZcjQhBA_


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## Milosh (Aug 23, 2013)

Going OT.

Could the MiG-17 intercept the B-36?


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 23, 2013)

Milosh said:


> Going OT.
> 
> Could the MiG-17 intercept the B-36?



In clear weather and during the day, I believe it could. MiG-17s were used by the Nigerian AF to intercept gun running cargo aircraft going into Biafra during the Nigerian Civil War. Even with East German pilots, intercepts were difficult when the gun runners switched to night operations, I don't know if radar was made available to the NAF during this conflict.


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## swampyankee (Aug 23, 2013)

I remember reading that the MiG-17 was specifically designed as the MiG-15 could not intercept a B-36. As a relevant aside, a friend said a friend of his, who flew F-86Ds for the USAF, said the B-36's speed plus altitude at high altitudes meant the Sabre could only make a single pass. 

As to the other issues, I remember reading an article in USNI _Proceedings_ about the MiG-21 where it said that about a third of its fuel was unusable because of c/g problems (as in "design defect").


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 23, 2013)

swampyankee said:


> I remember reading that the *MiG-17 was specifically designed as the MiG-15 *could not intercept a B-36. As a relevant aside, a friend said a friend of his, who flew F-86Ds for the USAF, said the B-36's speed plus altitude at high altitudes meant the Sabre could only make a single pass.


 Not true; it's obvious they came from the same stable and share a lot of common internal systems but were two different aircraft, especially when you add in the AB and visually compare airframes. the MiG-17 project started out as an improvement to the MiG-15bis and wound up with so many changes it was determined that it was actually and entirely new aircraft. As far as intercepting the B-36? The MiG-17 intercepted and engaged B-47s on several occasions, so that might answer that question.


Maintenance wise they are very similar. I know several people who have flown both aircraft and the MiG-17 is the better flying machine, doesn't snake as much on landings, maintains aileron effectiveness at lower speeds and has better trans sonic control.


swampyankee said:


> As to the other issues, I remember reading an article in USNI _Proceedings_ about the MiG-21 where it said that about a third of its fuel was unusable because of c/g problems (as in "design defect").



That would be only without the center line tank attached.


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## Gixxerman (Aug 23, 2013)

Best of luck with the health issues there kettbo.

I have always had a liking for the Mig 19, best looker of all the 'single tube' Migs to me.

I remember my dad (Vulcan aircrew mid 50's to early 60's) saying that they had experienced Migs trying to come up to bother them on occasion and they just couldn't get the altitude necessary one by one each member of the intercept flight would flame out fall away.
Of course widespread introduction of effective high altitude SAMs made ceilings of 60,000ft+ redundant, for everybody.


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## kettbo (Aug 23, 2013)

Thanks for all the good wishes folks! 4 weeks ago today. As for my absence from here the last few month prior, finishing a car build.

OK, as for the questions
1. Any confirmed HS missile use by PVAF MiG-17s?
or

2. Any confirmed gun pods on PVAF MiG-21 PF or PFM versions? Looked at all the pics in the books that I have, do not see any. In the Osprey DUELS, F-4 vs MiG-21, the color MiG-21 artwork shows the plane with moddled green uppers and a gun pod. Artistic licence?

3. answered: not so great fuel pumps, Snaking with lower fuel state...thanks for the refresher,,,and low initial fuel state at takeoff!


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## eagledad (Aug 25, 2013)

Hello, I also wish you a speedy and complete recovery.

As for the Mig 17 using heat seeking missiles, Randy "Duke" Cunningham Claimed that he and his wingman out flew an Atol missile launched from a Mig 17 during a fight on May 8, 1972. See 

Randy 'Duke' Cunningham: Vietnam Ace, Prison Inmate 

for further information.

Again, a speedy recovery!

Eagledad


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## kettbo (Aug 25, 2013)

I'm most interested in the air war over Vietnam. I have made a few aircraft masters for casting in 1/285 scale. Here is a mixed bag






















1. Interesting read....pulled away beyond the MiG's Atoll range....
good start, need more!

2. Osprey's Duels, Phantom vs MiG-21 further states 'PF and PFM with cannon pods' BUT I believe the author copied off a capabilities list vs evidence.
Istvan Toperczer says "not yet equipped with gun pods" re PF and PFM, but NO pic from that period or the many PVAF monument planes has a cannon pod. I'll keep looking

FLYBOYJ, forgot we had a PostWar area, thanks for moving the thread


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 25, 2013)

kettbo said:


> FLYBOYJ, forgot we had a PostWar area, thanks for moving the thread



You're quite welcome, speedy recovery!


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## kettbo (Aug 26, 2013)

nice MiG-21 vid to get in the mood for research


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU8ADSWbWMI_


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## parsifal (Aug 26, 2013)

looks as if yu are getting ready for some kind of air combat sim. One from the vault to look at is "Foxbat and Phantom" by Jim Dunnigan. Its very dated and some of the information is just downright wrong, but does give a reasonable basis for you to work as well


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## kettbo (Aug 26, 2013)

oh ya, played that LOTs... 
Seattle Tacoma guys us a modified version of the Avalon Hill MUSTANGS boardgame with their miniatures. The system is ok for a few planes, drags lots with extended numbers. Thinking something more simple so I can get my SON interested  and off the electronic game devises and instant gratification! Working some house rules, less technical but faster-paced. Have many hex mats for small tank battles, simply use them for air-to air


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## kettbo (Sep 5, 2013)

went to the Library, checked out CLASHES by Mitchel again.

Bought AND KILL MIGS and AIR WAR VIETNAM pt III by Drendel for chump change at Half Price Books.
Real prize for $10 was VIETNAM AIR LOSSES by Chris Hobson. Year by year in order, all the aircraft losses. Includes air crew details and fate, assigned unit, brief summary etc Lots of statistical date too.


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## kettbo (Sep 19, 2013)

Mitchel on p188-189 says some of the MiG-17 were outfitted for Atoll before LINEBACKER started. This is a really good book but (I am) still skeptical. Still looking for a pic of one of these bad boys. Also looking for an Engagement Summary or two citing the use of ATOLLs by a MiG-17


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 19, 2013)

Kettbo, check this out...

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a485056.pdf


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## kettbo (Sep 19, 2013)

Great Stuff there FLYBOYJ. I saw a lot of this in Mitchel's book. Boy, I sure love statistical data.
I'll have to read that a few times~

SAM launch numbers may be lower than actual as they only counted what the US Forces saw

interesting vid despite some of the propaganda, stumbled onto this just today


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4EZNh4YvDc_


Thanks again for the link,,,,got the Linebacker report?


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## Matt308 (Sep 19, 2013)

Propaganda? I'll say...


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## kettbo (Sep 20, 2013)

oh yes, BS is laid on pretty darn thick across a large percentage of the vid. An interesting look from the other side however.


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## steve51 (Sep 22, 2013)

Has anyone seen any new information about the North Korean pilots that flew with the PVAF in the mid 60's?


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## kettbo (Sep 23, 2013)

I know some N Koreans flew for some of the Arab countries in the 60s.


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## steve51 (Sep 24, 2013)

Kettbo,
You're quite right about that. A regiment of NK Mig 21's flew with the Egyptians for a period of time during the War of Attrition. Very little detail is known about their activities in Egypt, but even less is know about what they did in North Vietnam.


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 24, 2013)

North Korean Pilots in the Skies over Vietnam | Wilson Center

_NORTH KOREAN PILOTS FOUGHT THE VIETNAM WAR

Last week, according to reports from Yonhap, the South Korean News Agency, there were many North Koreans military servicemen who fought the Vietnam War on the side of communist North Vietnam, and at least 14 of them were killed and buried in marked graves about 38 miles from Hanoi. Yonghap said 11 of the 14 Koreans were fighting as combat pilots, the other 3 were warplane mechanics. According to inscriptions on tombstones at the grave sites, they were killed by American bombs or were shot down over North Vietnam skies in mid-1967.

A Vietnamese communist local government official confirmed the direct participation of North Korea in the Vietnam War in a telephone interview.

"It's not a newly-found place. We built the grave a long time ago and every year people from the North Korean embassy in Hanoi come here to pay homage to the martyrs," he said as reported by Reuters.

As far back as 1967, there were information from North Vietnamese POWs and ralliers (or defectors, or chieu hoi) reported to the South Vietnamese intelligence agencies about North Korean fighter pilots in North Vietnam. The sources said that North Vietnamese were praising the North Koreans as the best jet pilots who often led the intercepting missions and brought down a lot of American warplanes, far better than North Vietnamese fighter pilots.

South Korean sources estimated that more than 800 North Korean Air Force military men were serving in North Vietnam before 1975.

The POWs and defectors also told stories about Soviet jet pilots in dogfights against the Americans over North Vietnam's skies. The Soviet pilots, as well as the North Koreans, always flew warplanes bearing North Vietnam colors.

Rumors, later confirmed, ran that some Soviet pilots' jets were shot down by the Americans and they landed safely by parachutes on the ground. The Soviet pilots never wore insignias or marks to tell that they were from the Soviet Union. 

They were immediately arrested and were beaten to pulp by the militiamen in the area, most of whom didn't understand Russian. Some who could tell that the downed pilots were Russians usually beat them more brutally as if they had mistaken them for the Americans.

The question is why the South Koreans and the Vietnamese Communists chose this moment to disclose such an "already-known secret?"_

http://www.vietquoc.com/apr01-00.htm


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## kettbo (Sep 25, 2013)

Thanks again FlyboyJ. I missed this, have read lots about the air war.
So Marshal Mitchel missed this, Roger Boniface missed this, so did Istvan Toperczer? Not even hints.

Getting all into this...started a 1/285 F-105G WW scratchbuild


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## steve51 (Sep 25, 2013)

Thanks for the reply FLYBOYJ. The info in that article is apparently all there is out there. It would be nice to find some more data that could confirm it. If its accurate, it would indicate that some US losses that are attributed to NV pilots belong to NK pilots. The only admitted Soviet loss I know of was a Soviet instructor pilot and his NV student being downed after being caught by US planes. They both ejected and survived. The Soviet instructor pilot's name is known.


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 25, 2013)

steve51 said:


> Thanks for the reply FLYBOYJ. The info in that article is apparently all there is out there. It would be nice to find some more data that could confirm it. If its accurate, it would indicate that some US losses that are attributed to NV pilots belong to NK pilots. The only admitted Soviet loss I know of was a Soviet instructor pilot and his NV student being downed after being caught by US planes. They both ejected and survived. The Soviet instructor pilot's name is known.


This might explain "Col. Toon."

Nguyen Toon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Go to page 58 of this document, amazing!

http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/cryptologic_histories/on_watch.pdf


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## kettbo (Sep 25, 2013)

Very interesting FLYBOYJ. You have once again posted great links

See Modeling section/Modeling/show your WORKBENCH area


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## steve51 (Sep 25, 2013)

Great stuff FLYBOYJ. It is certainly intriguing to consider that the Vietnamese created a fictitious pilot to cover up the operations of the Koreans. I love mysteries like this!


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## kettbo (Dec 9, 2013)

work progresses on the F-105F or G, must decide which way to go soon












WAAAAAY larger than a MiG-21!






a wash of color to highlight flaws, getting close to the basics done






dusted off the old A-6 I started in Iraq during 2004. It had troubles so I did not send it in for casting. Have worked on it sparingly over time. Now getting close. Threw some basic paint on it for effect


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