# Reichsverteidigung



## Udet (May 24, 2005)

Before the beginning of 1944 the Luftwaffe had reduced its fighter strenght in the east to help bolster the Defence of the Reich.

I have not had the time to put my papers together here; i will do this by memory, hoping mistakes and unaccuracies are minimum.

For Reichsverteidigung the Luftwaffe had the following units deployed right after the Kursk salient battle of the summer 1943:

I and II/*JG 1*,
*JG 3* (arriving from the USSR),
*JG 11*,
II/*JG 300*,
II/*JG 27*,
*JG 51* (arriving from the USSR),
III/*JG 54*,
*ZG 26*,
*ZG 76*, and
a few months later II/ *JG 53 *,*JG 77* and* JG 4 *would join the defence of the reich.

*JG 2* and *JG 26* were still in France, but if i recall correctly one gruppen of the latter was involved in Defence of the Reich duties.

*JG 5* was in Norway.

*JG 50 *was officially disbanded by october 1943.

Add the nachtjagdgruppen to the list.

This could be the period (late 1943-1944) when the Defence of the Reich concept could be conceived at its purest and original form. When western and eastern fronts were clearly separated and detected.

January 1945 to the end, the operating areas of VVS and the western air forces are now overlapping.

I do believe telling that from February (1945) to war´s end Jagdgeschwadern "were sent east" to deal with the soviet advance -now inside Germany itself- is somewhat exaggerated if you will, since the enemy targets -soviets in this case- were easily within the range of virtually any of the Reichsverteidigung Geschwadern "trapped" inside Germany. 

With this i mean that by 1945, German fighter units could meet with both USAAF and VVS formations during the same day, so it is not possible to determine in due accuracy which units were deployed east and which ones were deployed west.


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## plan_D (May 24, 2005)

_"...German fighter units could meet with both USAAF and VVS formations during the same day..."_

Don't forget the RAF.


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## evangilder (May 24, 2005)

Good info, Udet. Also a good point that as the lines compressed, the Germans could send up fighters to intercept from either direction.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 24, 2005)

but they also had fewer fighters to send up.......


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## Erich (May 24, 2005)

interesting but not all together correct.

II./JG 300 was a night fighter Wilde Sau unit till June of 1944.

Only part of JG 51 was sent back to Germany for defence duties.

JG 1 and 11 were in the northern part of Germany and Holland and took the brunt of Allied bombers during 1943 including JG 26 and JG 2. In fact JG 11 was an offshoot of JG 1 and formaulating rocket attacks in II./JG 11 with the Bf 109G, heinz Knoke being the instigator of the single engine rocket attack.

ZG 26 and ZG 76 did not come into play with their heavy Bf 110G=2's cannon and Rocket launcehrs till the late summer of 43 into September of that year.

JG 4 was based in Rumania and took on the B-24's in the famous Ploesti scandals.

and yes you know from my previous postings what units were sent east in 45 and what units stayed behind in Germany....

gotta get back to work...

more on this later as this is my specialty  

♪


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 24, 2005)

why does no one ever ask about my specaility


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## cheddar cheese (May 24, 2005)

How many engines did a Lancaster have? 


Happy now? 

No-one asks about my speciality cos I dont have one...


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## mosquitoman (May 24, 2005)

Don't worry Lanc, there's nothing on my specialities either.
Anyway back on topic:
I think the main problem that the Luftwaffe had was simply a lack of numbers- they were making serious dents in the B-17s and B-24s that came over once they were unescorted but more might have stopped operations alltogether


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## Erich (May 24, 2005)

caswe in point for the Reichsvert. confusion as many units were developed for a very short period of time. NJG's flew day time missions and day fighter schule personell were also used in combat during fall of 43.

Oct. 14, 1943 the US 8th AF gets butt kicked over Schweinfurt.

German losses are 20 KIA, 15 wounded, 40 German a/c shot down and 23 damaged with 10 - 60%

I.-III./JG 1
I.-III./JG 2
STab and I./JG 3
II.-III./JG 11
JG 25
I.-II./JG 26
I.-II./JG 27
JG 50
II./JG 51
III./JG 54
JG 104
JG 106
Ind. Schwarm
II.-III./ZG 26
I.-II./ZG 76
I.-II./ZG 101

I.-II./NJG 1
II./NJG 2
IV./NJG 3
I./NJG 4
I.-II./NJG 6
Luftbeob.Staffel
II.-IV./NJG 101

14./KG 2


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## delcyros (May 24, 2005)

According to official numbers of 9th of april 1945, the Luftwaffe did still had 3331 operational planes (most at Luftflotte 6), from which 1310 have been day- and 480 nightfghters. This is quite a good number (more than anytime at BoB). However, I think the biggest problem wasn´t the number, it was moreso the lack of fuel. (reducing in the grounding of most bomber in late 1944)
However, ther was a possibility in late 1944 to stop the allied bombing raids over Germany with a single strike. Just a what if but a very reasonable one:
According to A. Galland, general of the Luftwaffe fighter arm, there have been preperations of a heavy blow to the allied daylight bombing raids in november 1944.
He trained aircrews for several thousend fighters in 1944 and storaged enough fuel for a concentrated attack late in this year.
After his plans 2000 fighter should attack a large bomber fleet in several attacks (waves). He estimated that around 500 planes could refuel and attack again. around 120 nightfighter should cut of fleeing planes, trying to reach neutral sweden and swiss airspace.
These preperations have gone quite well, the OKL did not tried to interfere his plans and at 12th of november 1944 18 Jagdgruppen with 3700 planes have been ready for this operations. Around 3000 fighter, the largest Luftwaffe airforce ever, awaiting order. It was hoped that during one day around 400-500 bomber would have been shot down for the price of 400 german planes destroyed and some 200 airman KIA. However, bad weather prevented the allies to form a 1000 bomber raid and this probably safed the day for them.
In early december Gallands assembly have been taken away for other purposes (such as operation Bodenplatte) and all plans have been canceled anyway.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 24, 2005)

Slight but possible. I dont think the Allies would have been prepared for soemthing of that nature.


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## Udet (May 24, 2005)

Erich:

As I did imply in the opening posting of the thread the information could certainly require some remarkings.

I did not mean each unit was there right after the Kursk battle in the east in July 1943.

As to the remarks you made here i am aware of most of them though.

Now, that II/*JG 300* was a nightfighter "Wilde Sau" unit still makes it a unit deployed in the west to deal with the heavy bomber menace.

I am aware* JG 4* was based in Romania, but in the same 1944 JG 4 had a noted sturmgruppe -one of your specialties- in the west for Rechverteidigung duties.

Also your quotes on *ZG 26 *and *ZG 76 *do not take away the fact both units were committed to Defence of the Reich as well (from late 1943 and through 1944). ZG 26 had significant numbers of Me 410s in the order of battle during 1944. 

As i did mention, with some remarks the list i provided has validity: the bulk of the Luftwaffe fighter strenght went west during mid/late 1943 and remained there throughout 1944.

Yes, historians and researchers might find the orders of Jagdgeschwadern gruppen and staffeln from february-may 1945 sending their pilots to fight the soviets, but as i said, by then how could you possibly tell which air force you were going to meet in combat? The enemies were now virtually in German soil.

It is likely to be impossible for researchers to come nowhere near the actual numbers of missions flown "in the east" from february to may 1945.

The list of JG´s you provided belongs in october 1943?

Some more points of defence of the Reich units:

Stab, I, II and III/*JG 1*. (1944)

*JG 3* had the stab and I, II and (sturm) IV gruppen by 1944.

Where did you leave the stab of *JG 2*?

*JG 11*: stab, I, II and III gruppen (1944)

*JG 27* added to its strenght as defence of the Reich unit the stab and gruppen I and III.

II/*JG 53* (1944) -i forgot to add these as a unit that would join defence of the Reich in 1944.-

In addition to the units i did mention in my previous posting, also *JG 301 *and *JG 302 *were in night fighter wilde sau missions by mid 1944 (one gruppe per JG).

*JG 104*, *106* and *108* had only one staffel, is this correct?


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## Erich (May 24, 2005)

Udet your posting was a little bit open so I tried to fill in the blanks. Funny as the vets have said there was a battle for France as well as the Reich defence although France, austira/Hungary were still all part of the Reichsvert. 

What I tired to do for the Oct. 14. 43 battle is just list what units took part and if you will note some independent staffeln as well as schule gruppen which had 2-3 stafflen apiece.

Yes I./JG 300 and II./JG 300 fought in the night time role and by June they were added to the day fighter force although 10./JG 300 was independent and took on Mossies at night till December of 44 when a new day time 10th staffel appeared.

II./ZG 26 took over the effective Me 410A in October of 43 while the other two gruppen had the Bf 110G-2 till march of 44, the smae goes for all of ZG 76. II./ZG 1 also played a role along with II./Jg 27 in the summer of 44 in austira taking on the 15th AF.
JG 4 yes developed a SturmFw II. gruppe from remnants of Sturmstaffel 1 tha had not gone over to IV.Sturm/JG 3 in May of 44. II./JG 4 trained through the month of August of 44 till their first mission on 11 Septmember 1944 where they got almost slaughtered but in effect took it to the 8th AF 100th bg and the 92nd with grievous losses.

JG 301 and lesser extent JG 302 fought at night in their Fw 190A-5's/A-6's and later Bf 109G-6's. JG 302 flying over Finland. JG 302 was later absorbed by JG 301 and revamped in Septemmber of 44 getting rid of their Bf 109G's for the newer and heavier Fw 190A-8 and later Fw 190A-9. My cousin was KIA in II./JG 301 in November of 44. And of course we as Doraites know about II./JG 301 receiving the Dora-9 in December of 44 till war's end.

JG 2 as a whole as well as JG 1 and JG 3 fought in the Reich but also piecemealed out to the Osty front when needed All of JG 27 was brought back into the Reich in the fall of 44 where it fought itself out


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## Erich (May 25, 2005)

just to continue this thread.....here is another example on 26 December 1944 


I.-III./JG 1
Stab.-III./JG 2
I.,III-IV./JG 3
Stab.-IV./JG 4
I.-II./JG 11
I.-III./JG 26
I.-IV./JG 27
II. and IV./JG 53
IV./JG 54 flying Fw 190A-8's
II./JG 77
II. and III./SG 4

even the SG ground attack were also called in to attack bombers, and fighters // Luftwaffe lost 34 KIA and 2 wounded along with 65 a/c

the Luftwaffe this day claimed 31 US fighters.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 26, 2005)

Interesting information from both of you.

Erich what do you know about Fw-190D's during the defense of Berlin such as claims and losses?


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## Udet (May 26, 2005)

Erich:

What do you know of JG 104, 106 and 108?

Were all these a one staffel Geschwader?


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## Erich (May 26, 2005)

Eagle can you be more specific ? the Battle of Berlin started in mid February till wars end in the eyes of Luftwaffe units on the Ost front brought back into the reich in the spring of 45.

Udet, no they are a 3 staffel gruppe, each one. JG in the name is part of the propaganda that the units played to confuse the Allies. the deception actually worked. School kids out trying their best to stay alive and attack 4 engine heavies after their instructors made the first pass. the schools of course added as cadre for the ever decreasing numbers of pilots in 45.....U already knew this of course.....


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## Erich (May 26, 2005)

Adler I am going to have to hunt down my Dora ops for 45.

At present I can tell u for fact that II./JG 301 foughtnboth US and Soviet attackers, with JG 301 performing shall we call it suicide bombing missions and still taking on mid range Soviet fighters. do not have a complete listing of JG 301 kills just yet but it is coming..........

2 staffeln of the old STurmFw gruppe IV./JG 3 converted over to some degree with the Dora and Oskr Rommshot down at least 6-8 Soviet a/c using his before his engine blew the grills off and frooze solid.

JG 6 and JG 2 which had quite a few Doras and part of JG 26 espcially the IVth gruppe fought agasint the RAF/US forces.

JG 51 the IVth gruppe also had some Doras and they served in fighting off Soviet interceptors, but not sure just what pilots or the kills.

JG 300 the stab of II.Sturm/JG 300 was suppose to have 5-6 and they did contend with the Soviets before being withdrawn totally for the last battles


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 26, 2005)

Okay cool thanks. Sorry about not being more specific. I am looking at more closer to the end of the war. Lets say last 4 weeks.


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## Erich (May 26, 2005)

in probability it is the units that I listed. so much of the Jagdgeschwaders histories during the Ost front the last two months is thrown together as an after-thought. The JG 301-302 book by pilot Will reschke is really his involvement with both units although he professes it is the histories of both JG's......it is not. the Eastern front is basically lost in the shdowing of his time in Stab/JG 301 flying the wild Ta 152, which is quite important but we do not have the full story of the other three gruppen in the closing weeks. The Doras must have made some sort of impae on the soviet fighters as the Doras could easily handle anything the soviets flew at them. the biggest culprit to the German losses though would of been ground Flak with the quick multiple AA's the Soviets had on about every flat bed truck they could muster....

the bridges over the Oder were of prime consideration as ground troops were fleeing west to the wewstern Allies so any a/c bomber, ground attack day fighter and even twin engine nf was used to bomb and strafe Soviet ground units to keep them at bay


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 26, 2005)

Do you know anythign about claims and losses for those units.


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## Erich (May 26, 2005)

Jg 301 and 302 is just plain screwed up and I know that friend Jerry Crandall will have a complete well at least as much as possible claims-kills liosting for the JG 301 when he produces his work. His JG 301 book although will be more about the pilots and especailly the a/c so I am looking very much forward to his new material on the Ta 512, but the dora 9 will be covered as well as Bf 109G-6's and the Fw 190A's that served with the Geschwader.

In Reschkes book only Soviet kills are mentioned by the Ta 152 only and that is silly....


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## Erich (May 26, 2005)

ah an interesting notation dated 14 January 1945. A pilot in Gruppenstab I./JG was shot down in action with a Spitfire piloting a new Dora 9 after he himself had downed a Spit at 09.20 for his first kill.....

Geschwader stab and the I. gruppen stab had now received some Dora 9's. Also the Geschwader stab of JG 11.

I./JG 1 shot down 2 Spitfires for a loss of 12 a/c and 11 KIA on 14 Janauary 45. Funny this date is known as Einsatz west and not Reich defence as JG 300 was on a terrible mission agasint 15th AF B-17's that had come into southern Germany. Both the P-51's and the JG 300 really took it to each other and at least 12 B-17's fell.

for einsatz West, some 22 Luftwaffe Gruppen took on US and RAF fighters, claiming some 10 RAF a/c including 9 Spitfires and 11 P-47's and 3 P-51's. the Luftwaffe lost heavily with 92 German a/c destroyed and 57 pilots killed and 22 wounded.

this does not include victories/losses from JG 300 for the above date


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## Erich (May 26, 2005)

simple note from the data base.

Stab./JG 11 had 4 Dora 9's with 3 operational on 20th of March 1945. 96 Fw 190A-8/A-9's and 48 109 G-14's/G-10's and K-4's for the other 3 gruppen


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## Udet (May 27, 2005)

Erich:

Since you are fond of the topic, i recall the Luftwaffe lists of confirmed kills for the Reichsverteidigung jagdgeschwadern.

There was a day of November 1944, when the Luftwaffe shot down -heavy bombers and fighters- some 110 enemy planes, having JG 300 as one of the main players.

Do you recall the precise day?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 27, 2005)

Are you talking about Nov. 2, 1944 Merseberg Raid (I may be spelling it wrong). I also am not sure if that is the raid. I only have one account from the 471st bomb group with accounts of heavy losses for them and other groups that day but no confirmations.


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## Erich (May 27, 2005)

not much happened in November really, well that depends I suppose on how you look at it........ November 2, 1944 was a hell hole for both the US and the Luftwaffe.

91st bg lost 13 B-17's to SturmFw's
457th bg lost 9 plus to SturmFw's and high cover Bf 109G's.

IV.Sturm/JG 3 attacked the 91st bg
II. Sturm/JG 4 with III./JG 4 attacked the 457th bg.

JG 27 claimed 7 P-51's this date and the Flak batteries claimed 32 heavy bombers..... nonsense !

in all Germany claimed 80 heavy bombers alone for the date.

The Luftwaffe supplied I. and II./JG 3 flying Bf 109G-14's, they lost 22 personell.
I., III., and IV./JG 4 providing G-14's and III. gruppe also having G-10's. the 3 gruppen lost around 11 casualities

All of JG 27 flying Bf 109G-14's and K-4's lost 38 personell.

I./JG 400 flying the Me 163 Komet flew briefly and lost 3 pilots

the 2 SturmFw units lost some 24 killed and wounded in their heavy Fw 190A-8/R2's and R8's.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

erratic fighter vs fighter combat for much of November 44 until the 21st.

this date my cousin flew his 1-2nd mission ?

I.JG 1 flying Fw 190A's lost 20 
III./JG 2 lost 1
III./JG 4 lost 4
II./JG 27 lost 5
IV./JG 54 flying with JG 27 in their Fw 190A-8's lost 5

I./JG 300 flying 109G-14/AS lost 3
IV./JG 300 flying 109G's lost 4

my cousins unit:

all of JG 301 flew and attacke a B-17 pulk knocking about the US 398th bg. 10Fw 190A's came out of the clouds and especially pounced on the 603rd sq losing 7 bombers, in all some 12-15 bombers were shot down by the Geschwader. The losses for JG 301 were a total of 20 pilots KIA or wounded. Losses of 25 Fw 190A's. JG 301 was given credit for 6 B-17's and 1 P-51 although it has been confirmed by the B-17 personell of the 398th that they indeed lost at least 12 possibly 15 to the rear attack............total confusion. 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

26 November 1944 over Misburg, one of the worst air battles over the Reich. Not sure of the total number of claims but it could of been over 100 easily.

I. and II./JG 1 lost 14
III./JG 6 lost 12

III./JG 26 lost 2

all of JG 27 was invovled and lost 18

IV./Jg 54 flying with JG 27 lost 2

JG 301 attacked enmasse with my cousin being shot down and KIA south of Misburg. flying Fw 190A-8's and A-9's JG 301 claimed a total of 56-60 B-24's from the 445th and 491st bomb groups. In reality according to US archivs and the historians for both bomb groups that I have interviewed extensively, the 445th lost 5 B-24's and the 491st 16.
German credits were given after the claims nullified and gone over closely, JG 301 was given 3 B-17's and 11 B-24's and 1 P-51 as confirmed. The B-17's were actually B-24's.
JG 301 lost 38 pilots KIA and over 51 Fw 190A's in action.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Novemeber 27, 1944 a slaughter of the Jagdgeschwader

I. and III./JG 26 lost 5
III. and IV./JG 27 lost 7
IV./JG 54 lost 4

I./JG 300 lost 12 109's with 3 KIA
II.Sturm/JG 300 lost 12 Fw 190A-8/R's with 11 KIA
III./JG 300 lost 12 109's with 7 KIA
IV./JG 300 lost 3 109's with 1 KIA

I./JG 301 and II. gruppe lost 14 Fw 190A-9's with 7 KIA and 4 wounded.

a terrible performance as a total of 9 P-51's could be confirmed and 1 P-47. The Luftwaffe was met before it could set up esepcailly JG 300 who were caught before they could attack the US heavy bombers. Out- numbered the Jagdfliegers could only hope to fire and bank away vertically and zoom up 500 above ground and flat out run for cover while 8-15 P-51's would be on their tails, that is how strong the Allied presence was over the Reich.


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## Erich (May 27, 2005)

I have a note here that on 30 November 1944 the I./JG 300 with Bf 109's as Höhenjäger protection over II.Sturm/JG 300 attacked heavy pulk formations.

I see a listing of 11 B-17's lost from the 1st BD and 17 B-17's lost from the 3rd BD. Am not sure right at the present which bomb division or bomb groups that JG 300 attacked. This was a date of frightful weather and "FAT" man was present at JG 300 HQ trying to force Walter Dahl to commit all of the JG 300 Geschwader ...................

E ~


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## Udet (May 27, 2005)

DerAdler and Erich:

ok, i found the god damned notebook.

The day i was referring to is November 26, 1944:

All claims bear the Anerkennung with certificate and number for each kill.

Heavy bombers destroyed: 108 (B-24s and B-17s)
Fighters destroyed: 20 (the majority P-51s).

TOTAL: 128 PLANES (usaaf)

The German units involved:

stab I and II, 1., 2., 5., 8., 9., 10., 11. and 12./JG 301 (at least 50% of the kills of the day, taking the brunt of the fight of the day), and
JG 1, JG 4, JG 6 and JG 7.

My notes show the names of 3 German aces which had victories that day:
(consistent with the records of those pilots which i have had the chance of crossing with the info of Nov 26.)

Willy Reschke of 9./JG 301 killing a B-24
Wilhelm Steinmann of stab I./JG 4 who swallowed (2) two P-47s.
Josef Keil of 10./JG 301 who chewed (2) two B-24s.

I am fond of both Reschke and Keil for they would eventually be stars in the stab/JG 301 in 1945.

Noteworthy to mention is the fact this numbers imply a powerful and skilled Luftwaffe, and please see the day and month of the year: last week of November 1944, a date frequently depicted by allied historians as either a "Luftwaffe free" europe or of "pilots hardly capable of taking off". Illiterate hoghwash! Crap!

Yes, surely the Luftwaffe took important losses on that particular day, but those inflicted to the USAAF are horrific.

We are talking about a day when some 1,100 USAAF pilots and airmen did not return to base for dinner god damn it. Schweinfurt in 1943 is left well behind in blackness for the USAAF. Add those who got lost to Flak and accidents. It would be interesting to know what the mood was upon return to their bases.

Let´s suppose the Luftwaffe lost some 80 or 90 or 100 fighter pilots KIA on that day, we are talking about a USAAF suffering 9 or 10 times more men lost -most KIAs- in the same day.

That is one of the very ugly cons of heavy bombers. You lose one and that is a lot people going down with the toy.

Also what is true is the fact losses for Luftwaffe had a more significant impact within their ranks; but such losses are dramatic for a country like the USA where they do not show the contempt for the lives of their warriors the soviet way. So this losses are not be diminished in both significance and impact within the ranks of the USAAF.


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## Erich (May 27, 2005)

just so you are aware my friend I have a 4 inch thick file just on 26 November 44 alone. And this file has been accumulated for many many years due to my cousins operations and his subsquent loss in battle this date.

Almost every article written on this very aerial engagement is full of errors, even the Tony Woods listing from Freiburg is incorrect.

JG 27 and IV./JG 54 flew together.

JG 1's and JG 6 were in the same area and overlapped in their attacks.

Jg 301 was by itself and attacked the 2nd BD B-24's almost single-handedly. had it not been for the intervention of the P-51's of the 2nd Scouting force and the whole of the 339th fg then JG 301 would most probably have wiped out all of the 2nd BD, at least the 491st which they almost did and the 445th which was ahead of them. the 389th bg was far in advance of the other 2 B-24 bomb groups and did not feel the sting of the Luftwaffe except for one loss.

JG 301 confirmations have been given to :

Anton Benning with a B-24 and a P-51
Walter Blicke with a B-24
Heinrich Dörr with 2 B-17's - should be 2 B-24s
Hermann Dürr 1 B-17 - shlould be a B-24
Will Greiner with 2 B-24's
Jupp Keil with 2 B-24's
Will Reschke with 1 B-24
Bubi Blum with 1 B-24
Walter Scheller with a B-17 - should be a B-24
Herbert Seifert 1 B-24
Hans Todt with 1 B-24
Hans Müller 3 B-24's confirmed !
Jonny Wiegeshoff 1 B-24
Hermann Stahl 1 B-24
Rudi Michaelis 1 B-24
Julius Berliner (Will Reschkes wingman) 1 B-24

only Blickle and Müller were not from III./JG 301

III. gruppe was the Schwere gruppe and I. and II./JG 301 flying Fw 190A-9 and A-9/R11's were to be the top cover for the ehavy group. both the gruppen had 1 light staffel and 1 heavy staffel which was developed in October 44 for their first missions in November. they and although not armed with the big SturmFw the III. gruppe had some unarmored A-8/R2's which both Berliner and Reschke flew on this date. In any case when JG 301 could attack as a Gefechstverband it was to form and attack from the rear like a Sturmgruppe breaking off into small 3 man flights and attack like an arrow through a small bomber pulk.


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## Erich (May 27, 2005)

side note

Udet I am well awre of the Freiburg listings and the 56 plus bombers/fighters that JG 301 scored but the tally was recounted after the claims had gone in and at least 1/2 could not be documented and were dissallowed. Even the German records after this activity did not give full credit to JG 301's attack but I have listed whom scored as a confirmation. I also have all the losses records of JG 301 this date and to tell you the turth it is very sad. here is one lad, robbed of his youth


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## Udet (May 27, 2005)

Erich:

What was that all about? I did not suggest anything that might put your experience and knowledge on the matter into doubt.

You have admitted you still have stuff yet to be learned though.

The units and numbers i posted include all Luftwaffe victories in the entire west on November 26, 1944; they did not focus on a specific battle or engagement. 

But i am sure you got the point, so the remark is not necessary.

Now the questions:

(1) Are you suggesting the anerkennung for November -with the exception of the pilots you cited- are false?

If so, someone made them up?


(2) You are mentioning 25 confirmed kills for JG 301 only. Do you have any confirmed victories for the other units who flew everywhere in the west during November 26?


(3) I did not get your point when mentioning JG 27 and IV./ JG 54 flew together. Meaning they would scramble together from each base to attack?

What was the point in mentioning those geschwadern? 

You know that by late 1944, there were days where units simply did not fly, whether to lick the wounds of the previous day battle or the lack of fuel.

If a specific JG in Reichsverteidigung does not appear in the claims list of a given day, you can check the logs of that unit and know the reason or reasons as to why they do not appear. Perhaps they did not fly that day.


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## Erich (May 27, 2005)

Udet we obviously have a problem with our communication it appears. I do not think you understand my basis for making the remarks that I did. First I have been studying this aerial battle for more than 20 years and have had access to both US and German archivs besides at least 6 German researchers, a German artist/Historian and a Swiss researcher and several US P-51 pilots from the 2nd SF and the 339th fg as I am a friend of the group. if you would like I can list all the Luftw. units involved for the 26 November attack agasint the heavies and can ssure you it did not reach 128.

more later as my time has run out and will explain why JG 27 and IV./JG 54 flew together as well as JG 1 and 6.


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## Udet (May 28, 2005)

Erich:

You said:

"just so you are aware my friend I have a 4 inch thick file just on 26 November 44 alone. And this file has been accumulated for many many years due to my cousins operations and his subsquent loss in battle this date."

That is why my _"what was that all about?" _

That i did not put into doubt the knowledge and experience you have on the matter.

I would appreciate it very greatly if you could explain a bit further on the questions i made.


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## Erich (May 28, 2005)

ok the annerk. you mentioned is for what was put in as a claim and had to be verified. Because it is late 1944 onward till wars end there was no official tabluture of victoires any more. This had to be done by the Jagdgeschwadern historians themselves.

a couple of things not all Jagdgeschwaders are covered in writing, example being the gruppe FW 190A-8 equipped IV./JG 54 as one.

the unit took of from a seperate base and then came into contact with JG 27 and felw right behind it as part of JG 27's attacking force agasint B-17's. The same goes for JG 1 and JG 6 when they attacked B-17's.

JG 301 had 22 confirmed kills not 25. The 56 were presented due to the complete chaos of the mission. the 56 wqere presented and sent into the oficial documenting source and then rejected when the gorunds were covered showing/photograhing and IDing the ture US losses. what can be said with confidence is the German pilot losses this date. I have questions regarding this date with answers hopefully in a weeks time from Hans Müller and Will Reschke so I will translate them out and prsent them here in due course.

yes I have the kills claimed by the other Geschwadern and will post them shortly. A side line another more noted air battle involving over 100 kills is the 11 january 1944 raid. I have a close Dutch friend covering this mission with some interesting info. A book from another Dutch author has been written on the air battle through Hikkoki publications from England.


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## Erich (May 31, 2005)

for 26 November 44

Stab./JG 1 1 4 motor bomber
I./JG 1 0
II./JG 1 2 B-24............no it was B-17's

I./JG 4 1 P-38, 2 P-47's

III./JG 6 2 B-24 ............no it was B-17's

I./JG 26 1 P-51
III./JG 26 4 B-24..........no they were B-17's, and 1 Spitfire

I./JG 27 1 P-51
II./JG 27 1 P-51, and 1 P-47
III./JG 27 1 P-51
IV./JG 27 2 B-17, 4 P-51, 1 P-47

IV./JG 54 1 B-17 of the 381st bg, and 6 other B-17's HSS (shot out of formation)

JG 301: I gave what was listed as what was confirmed and in reality they shot down 22 B-24's, the names of the pilots are given in a previous post. Not the claims listed in Freiburgs Chef für Auszeichnung und Disziplin which is the overall CLAIMS lists NOT confirmations of the units recorded by the seperate unit historians and administratiors.


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## Erich (May 31, 2005)

alrightie then.................here's another one that I have been researching for quite some time.

During the Ardenne fiasco: 23.12.44

where US medium bomber forces were sent to plaster rail and road cross-roads and airifelds supported by US P-38's, P-47's and P-51's.

A huge amount of claims were given for this date esepcailly by JG's 11 and the STurmFw gruppe IV.Sturm/JG 3.

135 German a/c were shot down with 64 KIA and 4 POW and 36 wounded.

IVth gruppe of JG 3 probably destroyed 1/2 of of a B-26 and part of another on their rear attacks with the losses of 8 Fw 190A-8/R8's. My friend Oskar Bösch lost his engine due to his fule line being shot out as he crept closer and closer to the B-26 formation, a P-47 assaulted his SturmFw and he banked over hard and the Jug flew away. Oskar was a first hand witness to the destructive power of 2cm and 3cm weaponry from his kameraden as the Mine Geschoss tore the tails off numerous B-26's. After the days event the Sturm unit ws given credit for 31 B-26's and 3 P-47's. In the Official IV./JG 3 history they are given the same credit with FW Harry Wald scoring 3 kills. The overall 9th AF history gives a total loss of 42 B-26's for the day and some 14 P-47's and 2 P-38's. 8th AF lost 1 B-17 and 5 P-51 and 3 P-47's.

the other high scorer flying behind a different B-26 group, possibly 2 claimed by I. and II./JG 11 anopther 25 B-26's.

29 single engine gruppen took part in this huge action claiming 

33 P-47's
3 P-38's
6 P-51's
! Spitfire
1 Mosquito

6 Lancasters
1 B-17
73 B-26's

a real oddity, when I interviewed the two historians of the 2 B-26's goups that IV.Sturm/JG 3 attacked I was given a reply that no B-26 history existed and what you will find is already on the net........... a single page of garbage covering an overall history of the units and citations they received. Each one receiving a commendation, etc. for their participation on the horrid 23 December 44 air battle, nothing on losses or even the pics or coverage of the land taget that they reached.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 31, 2005)

Erich the raid that is in question on Nov, 26, 1944, is that the raid that you cousin was shot down on? By the way I have not made it back up to the site maybe next weekend.


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## Erich (May 31, 2005)

yes you are correct Eagle ! thanks for rejoining on the efforts. Take the little Mrs. out for a wurst and Bier afterward or maybe since this area is north a nice glas of Wein ?  

Wanted to finish the 23 December 44 thread by stating that Oskar bailed out really low due to having former members of the Gruppe shot down while in their parachutes so it was ordered that the Sturmgruppen pilots bail out at around 500 feet of the deck. Oskar pulled the chute but it partially collapsed and he fell fortunately into some tall spruce trees filled with snow which broke his fall. hanging by his parachute he tried first to get down and slowly cutting the slings of the chute. having done that he climbed down ever so softly but kept busting out limbs of all sizes until he fell some 60 or so feet and landed in a huge snow drift. having twisted his leg he managed to get out as night was approaching. Seeing a small village in the distance he hobbled over to a couple of soliders who then were able to release his parachute and get Oskar back on the nearest train for base the following day as he was thought to be MIA.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 31, 2005)

That would be a story to tell your grandkids!


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## Udet (May 31, 2005)

Erich, hallo:

Let me see if I fully understood your posting regarding december 23, 1944:

*POINT 1.* GERMAN CLAIMS-VICTORIES

*1.1 *Fw190s of IV.(sturm)/*JG 3* were credited with the following kills that particular day -official kills according to the geschwader records-:

31 B-26s and
3 P-47S.

Is point 1.1 correct?

*1.2* I/ *JG 11 *destroyed 2 B-17s
II/*JG 11* destroyed 25 B-26s.

Is point 1.2 correct?


*POINT 2.* 9th Air Force reported losses are:

42 B-26s
14 P-47s
2 P-38s

Is point 2 correct?


*POINT 3.* 8th Air Force reported losses are:

1 B-17
5 P-51s
3 P-47s

Is point 3 correct?


*POINT 4.* What you meant there is that when you interviewed a pair of historians of B-26 groups they told you "absolutely nothing happened on december 23, 1944"? 

Also that the webpage they referred is garbbage?

Are your thoughts they hid records?



So 64 KIA and 4 POW and 36 wounded for the Germans. In fact high losses.

Now 42 B-26s lost in accordance with the records of the 9th Air force alone makes 294 pilots and airmen lost. More than 5 times the total German losses of men.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 31, 2005)

Are we trying to dispute the number of casualties by the 9th Airforce here or what exactly are we trying to dispute?


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## Erich (May 31, 2005)

Udet I think the JG 11 claims are a bit high, but the two 9th AF historians and veterans are hiding something.......they hae the losses and whom it was as I aksed for the names of the crews and the name of their B-26's and ID numbers. Absolutely nothing from them. the web-sites have nothing and I was told to check on two other sites dedicated to the b-26. Still nothing. Really hard for me to beleive that the B-26 units involved on this terrible mission have not gone into details with the MACR reports.

In fact because of the extremely high losses to the 9th AF the US 8th AF planned numerous heavy bomber missions on the Luftwaffe airifelds to pound them into dust the next date the 24th of December 44.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 31, 2005)

Erich do you know of any bombing raids on Stuttgart or the area around it in late 1944 and early 1945?


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## Udet (May 31, 2005)

Der Adler: 

As you know Erich has tons of info regarding the fierce battles between Reichsverteidigung units and the USAAF and RAF.

There is no specific agenda i guess. Erich continues to bring up interesting facts and we can proceed to exchange views and data as the info flows in.

Erich, the B-26 medium bomber had a crew of 7. So if we stick to the B-26 losses (42 bombers) reported by the 9th Air Force alone we have 294 pilots and airmen which failed to return to base that day (in this cases you can assume the majority of them were KIAs)

That is what the western allies fail to specify: that even if German losses were very high several of those days of mid-late 1944, theirs would usually be higher -breath taking in some cases- in terms of pilots and airmen.

294 pilots and crews (*B-26s only, 9th Air Force alone)* against 56 German pilots KIA means more than 5 times men lost for the USAAF on that particular day.

29 gruppen took part in the action of december 23? I have some in my notebook...do you have the gruppen numbers involved?


Erich, what amazes me is to know -for the first time- you have experienced suspicious behavior from USAAF historians yourself. If they hide something, what could that be Erich?

The answer should be easy: extremely high losses at the hands of the Luftwaffe.

December 29, 1944: this is the time when they claim the Luftwaffe had "nothing left to put up a fight but ill-trained kids". You know, in the mind of most people who are not deep into the issue, the view is that by late 1944, P-51 pilots carried pop-corn in their cockpits shooting down Germans at will.

Have you ever thought they want to keep the logic of the events officially registered in history?

Allowing new researchers and historias to get their noses on the actual records could disrupt the sense and the logic of what the world has been told.

Erich, if you have an employee at your company with a file of frauds committed in his former jobs, what makes you think he would not do it in your company?

If they are doing that with December 29, 1944 why not to do it with other battles? Why not November 26, 1944?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 31, 2005)

Okay well here is the thing Udet. The allies could replace there losses the Luftwaffe could not. Okay the 9th Airforce lost 100 aircraft. It sucks to put it this way but big deal. They could replace them and hit them again the next day. The luftwaffe on the other hand could not sustain losses of 50 or more a day for as long as the allies could.

I also in the sence of downing aircraft do not really see the relevence of 294 KIA as opposed to the number of aircraft lost. Bombers had larger crew members then fighters. So lets say 294 were B-17 crews. That would be approximatly 29 B-17's. The Luftwaffe lost 51 fighter crews. That would be 51 109's or 190's lost. Who really lost more? Who really could replace them? Who could come back and bomb tomorrow?


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## Erich (Jun 1, 2005)

Adler yes I beleive there was a raid near or on Stuttgart in 44-45. Let me do some research and get back on this forum with that....

Udet this is not the first time I have had problems in finding out the truth through US contacts. In fact in 8 out of 10 times the Bobm group historians are very reluctant to shed news unless by chance I was a familie member of the unit. It did not matter whether I was pure American or of German/American ancestry which I am. the only way I have been able to truly break the bonds was to give some histporical background to the operation I was interested in which the bomb group played a role and what I was truly interested in; which some years ago was for personal data reasons and our web-pages, did the men open up there files and if not pointed me to another man of the bomb group that housed the historical-bg history records that could be accessed. On more than one occassion I have been given the note to contact the US archivs, which to me is total denial and that we cannot be bothered. Have gone through several firms with MACR copies as well as documentation houses which hold copies of bomb group mission reports which are the closest thing in textural form to the real operational mission itslef and these very important documents I do own copies of. The biggest problems though are their readability which in 2/3rds of the cases is absolutely terrible. Just not the copies of the originals but the originals themselves as the typesetters of the bomb groups typed in of the hand written forms of each of the bomb group captains, formulated and then put in biref form toegether to be presented to US hierarchy authorities. The stuff is barely readable. What is good about the reprot is for the living vets of the raids a person gets a true ID of how the German fighters attacked and what is fun and almost laughable is the colours/camocted by the bomb crews of the attacking German a/c.

Overall it has been told to me that the B-26 bomb groups did not have their mission reports saved and so there are none available. I do not beleive this is the case and the mission reports are in the hands of teh official US archiv's under special designation numbers like all the reports are. The problem though is where to look and what report numbers are they listed under.

I have to admit though I have made some outstanding friends with several of the US bomb group veterans, historians as what I have given them on the Luftwaffe has more than paid off for their own mission narratives in return.....

more to come


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## Erich (Jun 1, 2005)

remember what I said about 26 November 44 the Freiburg listings ? They are claims not confirmed victories. I listed what has been confirmed with cross examination.

For JG 301 it was a chotic day and the air battle covered miles and miles. The P-51's attacked from above and behind I. and II./JG 301 Fw 190A-9's and the battles ensued over Misburg during the bombing and then west, with some of the staffeln able to carry out attacks on the bombers. The Schwere gruppe III./JG 301 was able to attack the bombers on at least one run through and formed up and presented to attack from the rear in small 3-4 a/c flights but then were set upon by P-51's. Again this went out west past Wünstorf where many JG 301 members lost their lives and over the hills to the south-west. After the mission the info was collected from the surviving pilots and the radioed in claims during the battle. this was turned in and then archived of which we at present have now. Upon further investigation of the areas reported by the pilots as to the actual shoot-downs, B-24's and the remains recovered were examined and then in truth, confirmation of the kill due to "area" was given out to the pilot whom submitted his mission report.

_____________________________________________________________

29 December 1944

I have only a brief note to the following. Terrible weather....

parts of JG's 6, 27 and 54 flew with 17 pilots KIA and 3 missing, and 26 a/c lost.

more digging.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 1, 2005)

Cool thanks for the info Erich.


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## Erich (Jun 1, 2005)

III./JG 54 with some 70 Fw 190D-9's took off with a section of JG 6 and Bf 109G's from IV./JG 27 to engage Allied fighters. The GErman ground control failed in attempts to visualize the existence and amount of US and RAF escort figthters and the Dora unit suffered terribly. In fact it was the last major operation of the gruppe. All 3 German units, JG 6 with Fw 190A-8's encountered RCAF Spits and Typhoons.

For the RAF-RCAF tallioes the mission reports conclude with 31 kills and the losses of 11 fighters in the 2nd TAF. German reports state overall a loss of 20 pilots of JG 6, 27 and 54. A tragic loss for the Dora unit as Kommandeur Bassi Weiss with 121 kills was shot down and KIA along with Stabschwarm pilot Oberlt. Bellaire......

JG 6's unit history is being written right now....

IV./JG 27 lost 5 pilots, 2 killed, 2 wounded and 1 bailed out. 2 109G-10's and 3 109G-14's, all in the area of Altstätte. IV./JG 27 claimed 0 RCAF fighters. This from the official IV./JG 27 history.

III./JG 54 lost 17 pilots-a/c with 1 other rolling off the runway. 5 a/c from 11th staffel, 2 from 12th staffel, 2 from the stab, 8 from 9ths taffel which was just about wiped out !

kills were 6 Spitfires and 2 Typhoons. 1 of the Spiots fell to the ace Bassi Weissat Gersten 4km NW of Lengerich (331sqnd. RAF, Captain Reader +) at 11.00 am

from III./JG 54 history


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## Erich (Jun 1, 2005)

für Adler and those intersted 

STUTTGART

I am going to start in July of 44 as this seems to be where Eagle wanted info....1944-45.

there was a 3 raid setup agasint ehc ity starting on July 24/25 1944 with some 614 RAF bombers involved. 17 lancasters and 4 halifaxes were lost.

The combination of these three raids casued the most serious damage to the city of the war to the central area. Most of the citys "old" buildings were destroyed. Second raid was the night of 25/26 July and the most successful in the terms of damage, with the night of 28/29th being the last of the three, incidently this night the German night fighter force got into the RAF stream and shot down 39 Lancasters during a full moon and clear skies. Totals for casualties for the 3 attacks was 1,171 people killed and 1,600 injured.

The city was attacked again on the night of 12/13 September 44 with 204 Lancs and 13 Mossies; 4 lancaters were lost 
the north and western part of the city was plastered and a firestorm was started. Schloss Rosenstein was destroyed as well as the Prinzenbau. Another 1,110 plus people were killed.

Stuttgart again felt the RAF on the night of 13/14 October 1944 by Mossies. Have no evidence of damages.

October 19/20th the city was attacked by 565 Lancasters and 18 Mossies.
6 Lancasters were downed.
Central and eastern pasrt were hit including 4 churhes, the Bosch factory and a hospital. 376 killed and 872 injured.

November 5/6 1944, 65 Mossies to the city, none lost. No damge reports

November 21/22nd A multi pronged cities attack: 5 to be exact with a minor op to Stuttgart by Mossies-29 of them, no damge report at this time....

this finishes summer to 1944's end..............................................


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 1, 2005)

Alright thanks alot! Where do you get this info. I have never been able to find info on bombing raids to Stuttgart.


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## Erich (Jun 1, 2005)

a number of sources collected over the many many eyars. My first luv has always been the night air war from my interests of 1963 onward so I have amassed a bit of documentation.

chorleys work covers the units flown in his 1944 volume # 4 and 1945 is covered in volume # 5.

Martin Middlebrooks Bomber Command War diaries. Stuttgart Stadt Archiv's will give every one of the bombings and the fatalities and the districts runined by the bombings.

Bestätigte Nachtjagdabschüsse which gives every one of the kill-claims by the Nachtjagd. A much more indepth book is coming out by Dr. Theo Boiten for the war which will include many first person accts that are not listed at all in the Bundes archiv in Berlin, Aachen nor Freiburg


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## Udet (Jun 1, 2005)

Der Adler:

I get your point very well. Also I share a similar view on the matter: losses had a more signficant impact in the ranks of the Luftwaffe by late 1944. No one will deny this.

That the USAAF could replace losses easier than the Luftwaffe is true. However I believe the issue has gone overboard. Again, the USAAF had a superior capability to replace losses but saying it was "easy" is misleading.

Losses for the USAAF were very very high fighting the Luftwaffe. The USAAF was not the armed branch of a country like the soviet union where the lives of their soldiers meant virtually nothing. Losses of course had a negative effect on USAAF personnel.

Try to imagine the mood at the USAAF bases the night of December 29, 1944 knowing 294 B-26 men (9th Air Force alone, add those KIA from lost fighters and bombers from the 8th) did not return from the mission.

Thanks for the response Erich. Great information. From time to time i continue to learn the allies are frequent liars and that they can conceal and manipulate the actual performance of their air forces and that of the Luftwaffe in such a fashion that of course serves their interest.



Erich, since the matter was one of your first loves, do you think it is about time to tell me what you know about the nachtjager experte Heinrich Prinz zu Zayn Wittgenstein? 

I was shown a photo of him: absolute class and ellegance (quite actually a very common issue detected on hundreds of photos of German pilots my PC has stored over the last 4 or 5 years).

He was involved in the defence of the Reich -on topic-. 

Since my knowledge on the NJG is not any deep, he is kind of a "new" character to me but heard he was a superb pilot. You told me he was a totally strict commander and that was about it.

P.S. Was Prinz one of his names?


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## Erich (Jun 1, 2005)

the Prince is actually one of the few NF aces that I have relative little info on. I know several NJG 3 vets that served under him and he was always dressed the best way possible. he expected the same of his crew in both the Bf 110G-4 and Ju 88C. to act and to serve in accordance with tradition is the highest honour or so he felt. A very competent pilot whom would take close in chances to assure a victory. So stirrct was he for stelath reasons as he trusted really no-one he refused to allow cameras on "his" airfield. off the field it was another story....

Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein

final rank : Major

83 kills, with 23 of them in the East. 320 missions, some 150 of these as a bomber pilot.

Received the Ritterkreuz with Swords posthum after he was killed in combat, January 23, 1944. Presented the EL to his RK on August 31, 1943 as a Hauptmann.

Flew 150 missions as a bomber pilot while in KG 51 over France, England and in Russia. In November of 1941 he became Stafflekapitän of 9./NJG 2. After his 22nd vicotry he was presented the RK. On the 12th of January 1942 he became Kommanduer of IV./NJG 5. End of 1942 he had 24 kills to his credit in 50 missions. For a short time he was in I./NJG 100 in the East and shot down a further 18 soviet a/c. 15 of August 1943 he became Kommandeur of II./NJG 3. After 54 kills he received the EL to his RK. December 1, 1943 he is now in NJG 2 flying the Ju 88C model, and on 1-1-44 he scored his 67th kill, on the 2nd of January he added another 6 RAF bombers to his socre. On the night of the 20/21st of the month he added another 3 kills.
January 21/22, 1944 the Prinz and his 3 man crew attacked and shot down 5 RAF bombers, the last one the Prinz got in to close and the rear-tail gunner let flyin with his .303's hitting the Junkers motors, the Prinz ordered the two other crewmen to bail out and the Prinz wendt down with his Ju 88C-6 coded R4+XM. Some historians have claimed that he was shot down by a Mossie intruder but the fire was coming into the nose-cockpit and the forward part of the engines according to the surviving crew members, Fw. Ostheimer and Uffz. Matzuleit.

There is also a book written up on the man and his exploits. Quite a character from the vets I hae interviewed.

♪


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 1, 2005)

Udet said:


> Der Adler:
> 
> I get your point very well. Also I share a similar view on the matter: losses had a more signficant impact in the ranks of the Luftwaffe by late 1944. No one will deny this.
> 
> ...



I agree with you on what you are saying here. I just think that basing the overall effect of the raid should place more emphasis on the amount of aircraft lost rather then the crews killed. 51 Luftwaffe pilots shot down and killed was more damaging to the Luftwaffe then 29 bombers shot down. Either way though you are correct 294 crew members not coming home would have a negative affect on the USAAF also.


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## Udet (Jun 1, 2005)

mit Elleganz...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 1, 2005)

The pictures did almost always seem to have a royal or knightly touch to them.


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## Erich (Jun 1, 2005)

handsome bloke bit a bit strange. A perfectionist to the extreme....

28/29 january 1945 Stuttgart gets hit by 316 lancs, 258 Hali's and 28 Mossies. 6 lancs, 4 halis and 1 Mossie are shot down.

The raid was split into two sections. The railway centre of Kornwestheim was hit just to the north of Stuttgart, and the NW of subburb of Zuffenhausen where it was hoped the aero-engine factory of Hirth. Skies were cloud scattered for both the attacks casuing the bombing to seperate. Interesting to note that the bombing seemed to have dispersed to outward towns such as Weilimdorf and off target towards decoy fire sites.

123 killed in Stuttgart alone. the last major raid on the city as some 53 major raids had occurred during the war mostly by RAF a/c. A total of 4,562 people died in these raids plus 750 POW's.

more to come....


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## lesofprimus (Jun 1, 2005)

Phenominal info erich...


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## Erich (Jun 2, 2005)

6 Lancasters are claimed by pilots of I./NJG 6 flying a mix of Bf 110G-4's and Ju 88G-6's.

there is a strong possibility that the Lancs claimed could also have been Halifaxes.

at :

23.28 hrs Ofw. Schmidt shoots down 1 lanc as his 7th kill

23.30 Ofw. Bahr
23.37 Ofw. Bahr
23.46 Ofw. Bahr

23.53 Hauptman Friedrich who is Gruppenkommandeur of I. gruppe flying a Ju 88G-6 shoots down 1 lancaster in the area south of Wildbad

0.00 hrs Ofw. Bahr returns flying his Bf 110G-4 knocking down his 4 kill of the night, Northwest of Karlsruhe, his 27th kill. 

1 Ju 88G-6 of 2./NJG 6 is lost due to a crash. probably a technical failure ? as the 4 man crew bails out wounded. this near Entringen/Wittberg. coded 2Z+LK


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## Erich (Jun 2, 2005)

continuing with Stuttgart.

A fake Mossie raid with Drop markers happened on the night of 1/2 February 1945.

12/13 February 1945 72 Mossies to Stuttgart. No damage reported in my data base....

last mission : March 17/18, 1945. 2 Night fighter Mossies sent up to draw Luftwaffe fighters over Stuttgart as well as over Mannheim.
1 100th group Mossie is shot down by Me 262 equppied 10./NJG 11.

♪


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 9, 2005)

Good stuff thanks alot Erich again.


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## Erich (Jun 9, 2005)

got another one on the morrow that I will post so we can debate the time and energies from both sides.....

E `


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 9, 2005)

I am looking foward to it my friend.


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## Udet (Aug 18, 2005)

Erich:

Do you happen to have any map showing the entire area of operation of all the jagdgeshwadern committed to Reichsverteidigung operations in 1944?

If so, it could be of great help and illustrative in understanding the massive effort conducted by the jagdwaffe during the bloody year of 1944 to face the heavy bomber onslaught (also to show those who deny the fact the bulk of the jagwaffe operated in the west to meet the massive USAAF and RAF throughout the complete 1944).


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## Erich (Aug 18, 2005)

Udet if that was possible you could not read the map ! IV.Sturm/JG 3 moved sometimes every 3 weeks due to Allied intel. knowing where to bomb them and wait for them over their fields after a mission.
The mission airfield maps are singular meaning a typical date is checked on say February 14 of 1944 and then the JG and ZG's are plotted on the map. this would change at least monthly for many of the air defence units....


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## Udet (Aug 19, 2005)

Erich:

You are correct. It is my fault for not narrowing the idea.

I am aware the jagdgeschwadern as a whole or several gruppen would move on quite a frequent basis during the last year of the war.

So the natural thing is to have several maps (a monthly one) illustrating the areas of operation of the many units; sounds like quite the job of a full time researcher.

When I had my last vacation this summer, I devoted some time to make marks on a map showing the areas of influence of JG 1, JG 11 and III./JG 54 during early 1944 following the places where they were based during such period of time.

The work is far from being complete though.


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## Erich (Aug 19, 2005)

heres a listing and am sure I have forgotten some units. February 1, 1945

I./JG 26 at Fürstenau
II./JG 26 at Nordhausen
III./JG 26 at Plantlünne

I./JG 27 at Rheine
II./JG 27 at Hopsten
III./JG 27 at Hesepe
IV./JG 27 at Achmer

I./JG 2 at Merzhausen
II./JG 2 at Nidda
III./JG 2 at Altenstadt

II./JG 53 at Malmsheim
III./JG 53 at Kirrlach
IV./JG 53 qat ST.-Echterdingen

I./JG 7 at Kaltenkirchen
III./JG 7 at ? Briest

IV./JG 54 at Sachau

II./JG 3 at Alperstedt

I./JG 300 at Borkheide
II.Sturm/JG 300 at Löbnitz
III./JG 300 at Jüterbog
IV./JG 300 at Wittsock

I./JG 301 at Finsterwalde
II./JG 301 at Welzow
III./JG 301 at Alteno

JG 400 what was left of it at Brandis

have left out the Night fighters both twin and single engine


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 30, 2005)

Good list.


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## KraziKanuK (Aug 30, 2005)

Not sure if all the bases are marked.

http://jg26.vze.com/ > under 'Jagergradnetzkarte'.

Copy the sections into a paint program and label the bases. One layer for each month.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 30, 2005)

Where does it label them by month though. I am sorry If I am misunderstanding you.


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## KraziKanuK (Aug 30, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Where does it label them by month though. I am sorry If I am misunderstanding you.



It doesn't, you have to do your own labeling. 'By sections' is the sections on the big map. The map on the JG26 site is for all LW bases, not just those of JG26.

Another way would be to make a track for each individual JG Gruppen from 1939 to 1945. Each base could then be labeled with the start date of its occupation of each base. A small arrow could be placed on the track line to show movement diraction.

A rough diagram

base A..................base B.................base C
*--------->----------*---------->--------*----------
date A...................date B.................date C

(ignore the periods, needed for spacing)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 1, 2005)

Sounds like a lot of work.


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## Erich (Sep 1, 2005)

the only feasible way is to braodcast the individual gruppen of each Jagdgeschwader on a one time map and even that would get clogged up especially during 44-45 when the JG's were rushed to the western front and then moved east ward and then within the Reich proper........Uk what a headache


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 4, 2005)

I agree.


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## Nicodemus (Nov 14, 2006)

Erich,

Do you have any information concerning the action's of the Bf 109G-14 equipped II./JG 53 in 1944-45, like victory claims, engagements, loss lists etc.
I believe Major Gerhard Michalski commanded the _Gruppe_ for most of the time.

Thanks in advance,

Nick


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## Erich (Nov 14, 2006)

nothing on JG 53 at all. Gerhard went over to Command JG 4 by 45


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## ChrisMAg2 (Dec 1, 2006)

Nicodemus said:


> Erich,
> 
> Do you have any information concerning the action's of the Bf 109G-14 equipped II./JG 53 in 1944-45, like victory claims, engagements, loss lists etc.
> I believe Major Gerhard Michalski commanded the _Gruppe_ for most of the time.
> ...



Nick,
have you looked here: Jagdgeschwader 53
and here:
Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, II./JG53


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