# All Is Not Well With The American Military



## PipsPriller (Jun 3, 2006)

The American military has been rocked again with claims of atrocities against unarmed civilians in the town of Ishaq in Iraq by members of the 101st Airborne.

And this follows on the heels of accusations that US Marines killed 24 civilians in the western town of Haditha last November.

They're not isolated cases. No Gun Ri (Korea), My Lai (Vietnam) and Abu Ghraib (Iraq) are the more high profile cases, but the above is becoming more prevalent.

Why?

Is todays current soldier less moral than in previous years? I don't think so, and several atrocities go back a number of years.

Is it to do with the pressure being placed on the American soldier to act as the worlds 'fireman', being placed in extremely awkward situations where the psychological pressure of ones comrades deaths in a 'policing' environment results in an explosion of anger and frustration? Perhaps.

Several nations have been in this situation in the past. The French Army in Algeria and in Vietnam; The British Army in Palestine and Cyprus; both suffered similar laspes by it's military forces aganst civilians.

I don't profess to know the answer. All I do know is that things are likely to get much worse before they improve.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 3, 2006)

Soldiers are not policemen, and most were not/are not trained in the guerrilla/insurgent aspect of combat.... EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL U SEE IS A POTENTIAL TARGET... The trick is determining who and/or what is a legitimate target....

Unfortunately, even children are targets, and it is one of the hardest things a combat operative has to deal with.... Trust me as I know from experience.... But the one thing I can tell u is that whoever was responsible for the unwarranted killings, they were led to that point by a senior non-com or an OIC.... Leadership in combat is the one of the most important thing, next to fire discipline, and these accused units were obviously lacking in both departments...

Below is a vid clip of what happens in an insurgent enviornment.... Kids as the enemy....


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Jun 3, 2006)

Those kids certainly are a threat! I wonder what happened to them.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 3, 2006)

They were probably honored and celebrated by their fellow scumbags....


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## Erich (Jun 3, 2006)

Gents I will be brief on this as rasing this brings a horrid taste to my mouth. If you guys knew just how many innocents were blown off the earth in Vietnam it would make your blood curl, but realize the all important note here: during the wicked time in the far east the innocents as they are called would wave at us in one se3cond and pull an Ak 47 out ans shoot us in the back on another out of the rice paddies. As in the mid east as well in nam the VC would be in such a forceful position to put villagers in front of huts to take the brunt of our return fire whie the VC would shoot at us from a protected although thin walled hut.
Same applies in the mideast, force women and the elderly/young to walk out in front of a fire fight and then say we blew Iraqui civilians away. Unless you have ever been in a fire fight and reeceived fire from blank windows and walls/roofs you will never know what it feels like. . . . what is the first reaction. . . . send fire into that general area (especially when you see your buds getting drilled).

The media has warped the situation in the mideast out of control and again is trying to make a mockery out of our service personell. Meida needs to take a break and come out to the front lines and see first hand. But then whom needs more imbeds taking a bullet and jeopardizing a mission; which they have in the past

E


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## pbfoot (Jun 3, 2006)

It has been going on since the beginning of time and no military is immune there has never been or never will be a perfect war


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## Erich (Jun 3, 2006)

so true pb. What in reality yanks me is that they did not let us do our job in Nam and they are not letting us do our job in the Mideast - Iraq or Afghanistan.

only if they would so we can come home alot sooner ............. but NO always has to be a political/media ploy to disrupt and form public consensus


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## lesofprimus (Jun 3, 2006)

Amen Erich and pb....


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## pbfoot (Jun 3, 2006)

These things as I said have always happened but in these modern times information is passed instantly in times past at least for Erich and Twitch and others in our age group we can probably remember the first live transmission transatlantic of of video and it was incredibly expensive they used to have send film not video across in airliners of major news events but now news is so readily available and we have the option of many sources so any little snippet or rumour of misdeeds are known in seconds rather then years down the road before having the option of hindsight


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## evangilder (Jun 4, 2006)

It's a bit of a double edged sword, though. The problem is that if the story gets out that is incorrect, and people go nuts and riot and people die because of it, then it turns out that the report was false, then that is where rapid information runs afoul. Like when some disaster strikes in the world, then yor see headlines from different news source with differing numbers and facts. "200 dead in earthquake in xyz" and 2 headlines down 450 dead...etc. 

The big problem is when these "facts" get presented that are often unchecked. Have atrocities occurred, yes. Will it ever be perfect? Hell no. Because if we could pinpoint kill the responsible party, we wouldn't need to send these brave young men into harms way. Hell, for that matter, you wouldn't need a military, right? I think we can all see where this would lead, "Who decides?" "Who is right and wrong" etc. There are no easy answers and the world is one f*cked up orb. In wars, people die, too many.

One more thing. I do have a bit of a problem with an Australian coming onto a message board with that as the title of the thread: "All Is Not Well With The American Military". And you know this _how_? The wording could have been better for the subject.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 5, 2006)

Well here is what I have to say to that and this is from my experience in Iraq. You do not know your enemy, when you are out of the wire you fear everyone because all of them are potential insurgents. Women, Children, Farmers, Taxi Drivers, Old Men, etc...

Mistakes happen and innocents get killed. It is a fact of war, especially this kind. Is it tragic when a innocent civilian gets killed. Yes however do you think that any of these "innocent civilians" wept or condemned the thousands of INNOCENT PEOPLE that were in the World Trade Center. No the majority of them cheared for the way the infidel west was paying for being the non believers.

Last I would like to say, I dont know if this is true in this case, but many many times these so called "innocents" are not innocents, the LAME *** MONEY HUNGRY LIBERAL PRESS is looking for ways of twisting a story around and making the US Military look bad so that they can make a buck or two! I know from first hand experience that we never targeted out innocent women and children and civilians.


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## Hunter368 (Jun 22, 2006)

PipsPriller said:


> The American military has been rocked again with claims of atrocities against unarmed civilians in the town of Ishaq in Iraq by members of the 101st Airborne.
> 
> And this follows on the heels of accusations that US Marines killed 24 civilians in the western town of Haditha last November.
> 
> ...



While I have no direct facts on the subject but I highly doubt that the frequency of such things has increased, just the number of such acts being reported has increased due to the huge increase in media coverage. I would bet that such things has decreased over the last 40-60 years.

It has nothing to with the USA military directly. The only reason that they "seem" to get more reports of such things is b/c their military is more active then any other military around the world. That and they hold their military to high moral standards compared to many other countries. Just look at all the places where their troops have been in the last 15 years, allot of hell holes.

They fight a none traditional war every where they go now, not their choice thats for sure. Its not just a matter of fighting a war like it was in WW2, its sooooo different now. Its like freaking guerrilla warfare all the time, 24/7. You have to watch kids, women, old people and men. Thats stress, thats dangerous, thats fatiguing, thats war in 2006. Its hell. No military in the world can do it any better than the USA military. There will be isolated incidents with any military, thats war and reality in 2006 if you want to play any role in global politics in our day and age. The only way to have no such incidents is to never let your troops outside your own border. I think their troops maintain very good composure in very difficult situation.


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## syscom3 (Jun 22, 2006)

These are allegations.

The soldiers are innocent untill proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 22, 2006)

Exactly and the ****ing press blows things out of proportions.


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## Erich (Jun 22, 2006)

remember this is the mideast and not Nam from the sense that the individuals were are trying to eliminate as well as the locals hae a very different belief system religiously. It was not common to be a VC suicide bomber. Did we have buildings blow and booby traps all around .....of course ! but we did not have an individual come in disguised like a woman/soldier or drive a truck through a road block full of explosives and blow them and us to pieces. for these in the mid-east, life means nothing except to die as a martyr


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## evangilder (Jun 22, 2006)

The value of human life in that culture is very low. It was a sad thing to witness in too many ways, E. If god were to give the world an enema, he would stick it in the Middle East.


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## R988 (Jun 23, 2006)

If you look at WW2 the casualties both civilian and military were counted in millions.
Korea in hundreds of thousands
Vietnam in tens of thousands
Iraq in thousands

Total number of US troops killed so far since 2003 is just over 2,500, which is a remarkably low figure compared to any other war this century. If you lost that much just in one battle in WW2 or even Korea it would be considered getting off incredibly lightly. Civililan deaths are higher probably 25,000 or more, no-one really keeps accurate figures, but you can bet that the majority of them were not killed by the evil baby killing US troops but by their own fellow religious lunatics who think they are doing a favour to their fellow muslims by blowing them skyhigh into 'paradise'. 

For example here is a random battle from Korea


> During 15-24 June 1950, the North Koreans assembled some 90,000 men supported by 150 Soviet-made T-34 tanks near the 38th Parallel. At 4:00 AM on the 25th June the North Koreans launched a co-ordinated attack on South Korea that ran from coast to coast. The South Korean army numbering 95,000 on 25 June could account for only 22,000 men at the end of June.



So thats 73,000 men lost in about 5 days, not including the civilian casualties, 2,500 over 3 years or miniscule in comparison. Frankly you are actually safer in Iraq than you are on the roads.

Total US road deaths 
in 2003 - 42,884, 
in 2004 - 42,636

So all is not well with the US military? I would say it's doing a pretty phenomenal job to be able to take over and occupy an entire country and facing hostile threats and insurgent attacks by a wildly unpredictable and psychopathic enemy every single day hiding amongst the civilian population making clean kills extremely difficult and the death toll is unbelievably low. Keep in mind that the population of the world has probably doubled in that time as well so it's even less if you consider it as a percentage of total population.

This is why we study history, so we can have some perspective on things. Most of this crap is to do with that cancer on western society that is political correctness, and you can read about it's insidious development here.
http://www.academia.org/lectures/lind1.html


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## evangilder (Jun 23, 2006)

Well said, R988.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 23, 2006)

I agree well said R988 and thankyou too.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 23, 2006)

Agreed and ditto...


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 23, 2006)

Agreed and ditto as well..

Just to sprinkle on a little more...

Many liberal eat-weanies and [email protected] like to make Iraq - Vietnam comparisons. Many of them use casualties numbers from 1961-1964. It was after the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution (August, 1964) where the war escalated and in 1965 the number of US service men KIA totaled 1,926!!!! 1,926 IN ONE YEAR!!!!! The worse year - 1968, 16,869 US servicemen KIA, the same year as the Tet Offensive. 

3 years Vietnam = 23,700 US service men dead.
3 years Iraq = 2510 US service men dead

In 3 years in Iraq a crazed dictator was removed from power, thousands of terrorists who came to Iraq just to fight against the US were killed (who might of just crossed the Mexican border and brought their fight right here) and finally a major terrorist organization who has attacked targets in the US and Europe has been kept off balance and now realizes the west isn't putting up with their sh*t anymore! The price to pay; 2,510 Americans, two Australians, 113 Britons, 13 Bulgarians, three Danes, two Dutch, two Estonians, one Fijian, one Hungarian, 31 Italians, one Kazakh, one Latvian, 17 Poles, two Romanians, two Salvadoran, three Slovaks, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and 18 Ukrainians. 

Iraq isn't done yet but I think things are a hell of a lot better there than in Vietnam, 1968. You could probably make comparisons in the leadership and compare notes on who was dumber, Johnson, Bush, McNamara or Rumsfeld, but that's where it ends...

BTW as of today there are about 152,000 troops in Iraq accomplishing the mission. There were 440,000 troops in Vietnam in 1968.

The only REAL comparison I see is the bravery of those who were asked to fight in both conflicts.... 

And all is not well in the US military?!?


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## evangilder (Jun 23, 2006)

Great post, Joe!


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## Gnomey (Jun 24, 2006)

Good posts Joe and R988, I agree with what you are saying.


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## Udet (Jun 24, 2006)

flyboyj, not so easy: "terrorists who might of just crossed the Mexican border and brought their fight right here."

during my stay here, a friend of mine -mexican girl- went to study in London where she met an iranian guy; the guy has lived most of his life there, meaning he´s a legal resident of great britain (he has a good job and many relatives in the island) 

the lovely couple decided to get married, and wanted to do so in mexico; the whole thing turned out impossible for mexican authorities refused to issue a permit for that guy to enter mexico. they got married in england.

with this i tell you that the presence of citizens of nations who are currently experiencing "issues" with the USA is forbidden in mexico, or better, said they will never be allowed here, under any circumstance.

mexican authorities might be very corrupt, they do not play with the possibility of the thing you mentioned happening though.


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## evangilder (Jun 24, 2006)

So you mean to tell me that not a single Al Qaeda member has come across our southern border? Give me a break. Being an illegal alien in Mexico is a felony, but that doesn't stop it from happening. 

Have you heard of MS-13? They get a wide variety of "OTM"s across our border. If you think laws are going to stop them, you are more naive than I thought, Udet. 

Don't give me that "propaganda" crap either. I have several friends in the border patrol, and they are picking up Iranians, Iraqis, Syrians, Pakistanis and a host of others on a regular basis. That border is wide freakin open for someone with a little knowledge of where and when to cross. The Mexican law enforcement and military people are corrupt as hell. For the right amount of money they will either turn their backs, or help you across.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 25, 2006)

And don't forget about coming into Honduras or Guatemala and making their way north with many of the illegals who do that right now...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 25, 2006)

Wasn't it not even 6 months ago that they caught some middle eastern men Al Quida ties trying to cross the border into the US through Mexico. Could have sworn it was not even 6 months ago.


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## evangilder (Jun 25, 2006)

Yep, it was not the long ago, maybe 2-3 months.


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## SpitfireKing (Jul 3, 2006)

Erich said:


> Gents I will be brief on this as rasing this brings a horrid taste to my mouth. If you guys knew just how many innocents were blown off the earth in Vietnam it would make your blood curl, but realize the all important note here: during the wicked time in the far east the innocents as they are called would wave at us in one se3cond and pull an Ak 47 out ans shoot us in the back on another out of the rice paddies. As in the mid east as well in nam the VC would be in such a forceful position to put villagers in front of huts to take the brunt of our return fire whie the VC would shoot at us from a protected although thin walled hut.
> Same applies in the mideast, force women and the elderly/young to walk out in front of a fire fight and then say we blew Iraqui civilians away. Unless you have ever been in a fire fight and reeceived fire from blank windows and walls/roofs you will never know what it feels like. . . . what is the first reaction. . . . send fire into that general area (especially when you see your buds getting drilled).
> 
> The media has warped the situation in the mideast out of control and again is trying to make a mockery out of our service personell. Meida needs to take a break and come out to the front lines and see first hand. But then whom needs more imbeds taking a bullet and jeopardizing a mission; which they have in the past
> ...



I have a brother who is no longer in active service. He was first an MP and then transported insurgents and military personal to the states. He was shot at, shooting at, and capturing insurgents. The media has warped the Middle East into a media craze for people to eat up like corn in a trough.I am frankly ashamed of what the United states is doing, with the press on top of it all. I don't mean Iraq or Afghanistan but all around the world. We are spreading our troops to far and drilling the minds of the troops with days of glory. When the men fought against the Germans and Japanese. We now fight against something that cant be stopped with military might but with something else entirely. Terrorism isn't a person, but a thing. A thing that feeds off the fear of the people who cringes at the thought of no democracy. Like a man named Franklin Roosevelt once said, "The only thing to fear, is fear it self!". The twin Towers hurt us so much because the people who died. People live and then die. I understand the pain. My veteran grandfather died at the age of 91 with a smile on his face. Democracy will hold even with strikes at it. We need to understand that and make a choice. Fight for freedom or fight for something that can not happen. The end of terror. -


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 4, 2006)

Well as a US Soldier who has spent 14 months in Iraq, I will tell you that I some what agree and somewhat disagree with you.

I do agree that this will never end, however I disagree with the whole ashamed part. We are not being drilled with thoughts of glory or anything like that. It is called the fighting spirit and every single one of us soldiers has it. When our government tells us to go some where, we go there and we kick ***!

Thanyou very much!


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