# Best Fighter



## cheddar cheese (May 14, 2004)

the whole look of the hurricane was better - im preparing for a linching here but, ill say it.

i think the spitfire looked dull

8) 8) 8)


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## plan_D (May 14, 2004)

You're blind, never did the Spitfire look dull, far from it.


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## Lightning Guy (May 14, 2004)

From an physical standpoint, the only advantage the Hurricane had over the Spit is that it gave its pilot a better view out of the cockpit.


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## plan_D (May 14, 2004)

That's from a practical point of view, we are thinking of looks here. 
The Spitfire was the better looking.


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## Lightning Guy (May 14, 2004)

Yeah. I would agree with that. There was too much framing on the Hurricane.


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## plan_D (May 14, 2004)

So, there's a mass agreement.


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## cheddar cheese (May 15, 2004)

well its not, bnecause i dont like the looks of the spit and the lanc prefers the cockpit of the hurricane 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 15, 2004)

the spit looks better in genaral, but yes, the cockpit of the hurricane was better............


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## Lightning Guy (May 15, 2004)

What about the Hurricane's canopy looked better than the Spit's?


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## cheddar cheese (May 15, 2004)

the whole of the hurricane looked better than the spit


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## Lightning Guy (May 15, 2004)

The entire Spit looked prettier than the Hurricane. The fuselage looked racier. The wings were thinner and sleak looking. And those elipitcal wings were absolutely gorgeous.


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## cheddar cheese (May 16, 2004)

but like if said many times, looks are a matter of opinion, and i prefer the solid looks of the hurricane 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 16, 2004)

it sure as hell does look sturdy, and yes, the wings of the spit were more attractive, and if you ask me, the spit Mk.V was just ugly.............


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## Lightning Guy (May 17, 2004)

The only Marks of Spit that should be considered ugly were the tropical versions. I know that the filters were essential but they spoiled the lines.


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

You always have to look good when you're killing someone  
The Spitfire was better looking, end of story.


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## cheddar cheese (May 17, 2004)

Fine, you that that, ill think otherwise.


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

Ok then, I will.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 17, 2004)

overall, the spit was the better looking plane.................


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

Majority vote on that.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 17, 2004)

yes, there's the majority, then there's C.C..................


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

As it is a democracy, the Spitfire was the better looking of the two.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 19, 2004)

this's gone dead so i'm moving on, which looked better, a 109 or a 190??


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## Lightning Guy (May 19, 2004)

The 190. It LOOKED dangerous, which is was.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 19, 2004)

i think i'm gonna have to agree there.................


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## Erich (May 20, 2004)

which variant ? Fw 190A-8/R8 was wicked with 2 2cm and 2 3cm weapons, only three rounds of 3cm to knock down A US or RAF bomber.

E ~


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## plan_D (May 20, 2004)

I have to agree the Fw-190 IN GENERAL looked better than the 109.


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## Erich (May 20, 2004)

looks can be deceiving.

The Bf 109G-6/AS and G-10 variants were the fastest 109's and did well in their high cover roles during the summer-winter of 44-45. Also well as a fast high altitude a.c at night agasint LSNF Mossies flying over the Reich for harassment raids on Berlin.

E ~


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## cheddar cheese (May 20, 2004)

i think the 109 looked better 8)


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## Lightning Guy (May 20, 2004)

The 109K-4 was the fastest of the 109 variants (452mph, a good deal faster any of the Gustavs). But Plan_D is right, just about any variant of the 190 looked better than any variant of the 109.


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## cheddar cheese (May 20, 2004)

i think not  the 190 looked good but the 109 looked better 8)


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## Erich (May 20, 2004)

I have the records showing G-10's and G-6/AS doing 480 plus in a flat out against the Mossie LSNF. The K-4 never proved it's worth as there were so few of them in JG 27, 51 and 4 plus a few other JG's that kept G-10's on hand. The G-10 and a few K-4's were used in the nigiht time role with I./NJG 11 by the way.

E ~


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## cheddar cheese (May 20, 2004)

i doubt a 109 could do 480


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## Erich (May 20, 2004)

CC it will be in our Nachtjagd book "Nasty Surprise, Moskito-jagd over Deutschland" which will cover the Bf 109G's of 10.(N)/JG 300 later II./NJG 11 and the Me 262's of Kommando Welter. many first person accounts and personal friends with two of the living pilots...........this is seperate from my Ju 88G-6 book. The Moskito-jagd is the development of some 35 years of research on my part and we have gone to some extremems finding the proper documentation and vets to be interviewed both RAF, US and German...........

v/r

Erich


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## cheddar cheese (May 20, 2004)

do you write books or something?


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## Erich (May 20, 2004)

CC I have researched / helped on over 10 different books. The last one on German night fighter losses and helping a German author friend for his German Luftwaffe ground attack book. Am also working on my personal interviews of German crews for the March 45 mission Unternehmen Gislea where Ju 88G's attacked English airfields with a dangerous fly back home/ intruder mission. you're maybe aware of the mission ?

Submitted German day fighter claims and losses for a book being prepared by the 445th bomb group-US, mission over Kassel on 27 September 1944 where the 445th bg lost over 30 B-24's to the three Sturmgruppen operating the heavy Fw 190A-8. Two more books in the works besides my own two personal ones I have made statements about........

One of the problems I suffer is Carperal tunnel in both my wrists so this keeps me from writing long paragraphs without extreme pain, so I leave the completed works to fine authors and help with research.

thumbs up !

Erich


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 20, 2004)

you still havent's actually given us your opinion yet Erich, which do you think looked better, and don't say "which varient" or anything like that..............


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## cheddar cheese (May 20, 2004)

wow, brilliant erich


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## Erich (May 20, 2004)

looked better ? ! Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeks, well I sure like the looks of the P-51 but also the Schwalbe, Me 262 and the Ta 152. The Fw 190A-8/R8 with the heavy sturm armor just looks plain mean and was as a bomber killer, it's primary function.

let you guys on a little secret though, we are going to be having some wonderful stuff covering the unknown Me 262B-2 night fighter in our Moskito-jagd book. the Jg 7 author Manfred Boehme is allowing us access to his incredible photo/drawing archiv and we will cover this unproven variant at length, since the futuristic a/c was to be ready for ops in the winter of 1946 had the war continued..........

E ~


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## cheddar cheese (May 20, 2004)

> One of the problems I suffer is Carperal tunnel in both my wrists so this keeps me from writing long paragraphs without extreme pain, so I leave the completed works to fine authors and help with research.
> 
> 
> > sorry mate, didnt see that  you ok with typing though by the looks of things?


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## Erich (May 20, 2004)

I try my best by typing really slow but most of the time my typing is just plain horrible !

E ~


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## cheddar cheese (May 20, 2004)

too bad  just put short posts like me and the lanc do, if it helps


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## Erich (May 20, 2004)

a little something translated from the Deutsch by friend and web-master Neil Page off our web-site:

For the Ta 152H

http://members.aol.com/falkeeins/Sturmgruppen/reschkeJG301.html


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## Lightning Guy (May 20, 2004)

I've never seen a G-10 listed that high on speed. What was powering it?


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## Erich (May 21, 2004)

insert foot in mouth................  

have had time this early evening to check through the German documentation, the speed for the G-6/AS and G-10's were around 430mph. quite a difference I would say. the G-10 also had the MW 50 boost and AS type engine and the a/c at times were buffed out with the rivets puttied over. also to increase speed of the Moskito-jagd the oil was specially thinned during the day as the pilots slept. the machines were just up for a short period of time flying higher than the Mossie bombers with hope of catching them by diving and pulling up behind the last moment.......


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## plan_D (May 21, 2004)

The Fw-190A-8/R8 needed its own escort, didn't it? I read that the armament was so high, and the battle weight was so high the plane didn't have a chance in air to air combat until it got rid of its load. 
And with that, the Fw-190 (Of any variant) looks better than the 109, the 109 has character but the 190 is just a better looking plane. C.C, you're the minority, again.


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## Erich (May 21, 2004)

Plan the Heavy Sturm fighter was just plain too heavy with an extra weight of over 500 pounds. Not so much the armament as the protective armor around the cockpit, canopy, fuel tank, ammo storage. It was quite unwiedly in flight and the pilots were given the express directive not to engage enemy fighters if at all possilbe. this then was where the lighter and more nimble Bf 109G's were to come into play...........

E ~


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## plan_D (May 21, 2004)

Or just normal Fw-190A.


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## Erich (May 21, 2004)

yes correct, the Fw 190A-8 without the cumbersome extra's could deal effectively with the P-51 as well as take on 4 engine craft..........

E ~


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## cheddar cheese (May 21, 2004)

im always in the minority cos im a very different person and dont like to be with the crowd, also i injured my hand today so my typing wont be very good


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## plan_D (May 21, 2004)

I'm never normally in with the 'in' crowd, just a crowd of strange people.  
I won't ask you how you injured your hand, even though it will leave you open for some prime abuse.


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## Lightning Guy (May 21, 2004)

Wasn't the Bf-109G starting to run into some of the same problems, too much weight and too much engine power for its size? I've heard that most Luftwaffe pilots considered the F and early G models to have the best blend of performance and handling.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 21, 2004)

> i injured my hand today so my typing wont be very good



so what's new??


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## Erich (May 21, 2004)

Lg, yes the F is considered overall exceptional especially for the fight in Afrika. One of the considerations though with the G series was more power..........the AS engines and MW boost come into it's own and the idea of trying to get the 109 to higher altitudes. when I./JG 3 for example were to provide high cover for attacking German craft on the US bombers the I./JG 3 was equipped with the new G-6/AS version and granted it could get up to 30,000 feet. But as ace Horst Petzschelr said we always were looking down for the P-51's and d*** it all ! they were always 2,000 feet above us and we were sitting ducks. this was in May 44 before Normandie.

Horst is a very likeable guy with a ton of stories to share. he thinks he is quite the ladies man...............


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## cheddar cheese (May 21, 2004)

that was so predictable lanc


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## Erich (May 21, 2004)

something for you guyz............a Bf 109G-6/AS from 4./NJG 11 and in this case with the FuG 217 aerials, an RAF bomber chaser


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## cheddar cheese (May 21, 2004)

cool 8)


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## Erich (May 21, 2004)

it will be in our book along with other 'look a likes'.............

E ~


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## Lightning Guy (May 21, 2004)

I don't think I had ever seen radar aerials on a 109. Very nice pic Erich.


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## Erich (May 21, 2004)

how about FuG 217 on an Fw 190A ? have seen something like this before ?


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## Erich (May 21, 2004)

ok guys here we are. Fw 190A-6 black 8 of 5./JG 300 flying night missions against RAF heavy bombers. Note Neptun FuG 217 aerials.....


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## Lightning Guy (May 21, 2004)

How much success did the Luftwaffe have with these single seat night fighters?


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## Erich (May 22, 2004)

very much hit and miss. It appears that only the faster versions of the Bf 109G could catch the Mossie LSNF until in 1945 when Kommando Welter used the Me 262A-1a, but even then determining which of the 8 routes the LSNF was to take twoards Berlin and retreating back to England.


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## plan_D (May 22, 2004)

So the RAF had a distinct advantage at night, through most of the war?


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## Lightning Guy (May 22, 2004)

I don't know if I would say they had a distinct advantage. From what I have read the electronic war at night was very much back and forth. For example, Window limited the effectiveness of German radar so the Germans developed radar transmitting on less-effected frequincies and devices to home on H2S and Monica. Then the British started using these devices less. What ultimately made bombers a safer place to live was the invasion pushing the German radar stations and fighter bases further and further back.


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## GermansRGeniuses (May 22, 2004)

Erich said:


> how about FuG 217 on an Fw 190A ? have seen something like this before ?


Wilde Sau, ja? Anyway, that means "Wild Boar" if I remember correctly.
From what little I have read about it, no, it was not too successful.


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## Erich (May 22, 2004)

I have more images I will share a bit later. Actually Wilde Sau was successful and needed as the Window and jamming during July of 43 countered any existing German airborne radar units. so a Frei-jagd (free-hunt) was to be the norm and not just for the single engine fighters of JG's 300-302. Twin engine NJG's though arrayed with the aerials used the crewmen's eyes and followed searchlight lanes to attack RAF bombers.

The problem with the Wilde Sau single engine pilots is that the fighters were not a good propositon to land by at night and most of the fatalities involved taking off, landing and engine failures leading to death.........

E ~, more later.............


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## Erich (May 22, 2004)

oh what the heck..........

Fritz Krause of 1./NJGr 10 and his Neptun FuG 217J-1 equipped Fw 190A-6. Weiße 11.

enjoy guys !


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 22, 2004)

> Fritz Krause of 1./NJGr 10 and his Neptun FuG 217J-1 equipped Fw 190A-6. Weiße 11.



well i could have told you that .................


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## Erich (May 22, 2004)

told me what ? do you know Fritz as he is still alive ? and do you have detailed information on the FuG 217 and 218 radar set ups used by single engine nf's of the Luftwaffe.......... ?

curious to your statement lanc

E ~


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## kiwimac (May 22, 2004)

Erich,

I believe lanc was being 'ironic'.

Kiwimac


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## Erich (May 22, 2004)

?????????????? ok I am lost ................ must be English humor ?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 23, 2004)

yes, it's english humour, you'll learn not to take everything i say seriously soon enough..............


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## kiwimac (May 23, 2004)

Don't worry Lanc, none of us take you at all seriously!

Kiwimac


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 23, 2004)

that's ok then!


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## cheddar cheese (May 24, 2004)

yup, the lanc isnt serious about anything, so dont believe a word of it


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## plan_D (May 24, 2004)

That wasn't English humour, that was Lanc humour, there's a distinct difference.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 25, 2004)

but i am seriuos about this, the mossie was better than the P-38...............


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 25, 2004)

but i am seriuos about this, the mossie was better than the P-38...............


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## cheddar cheese (May 25, 2004)

NO
IT
WASNT


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## plan_D (May 25, 2004)

That argument met a dead end long ago, if you want to carry it on take it to the P-38 Vs. Mosquito thread. The P-38 was the better fighter of the two, and the Mosquito was the better bomber. The Spitfire Mk.XIV was the best dogfighter though.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 25, 2004)

ok, here's one, which would win in a fight between a Roc and Defiant.....................


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## cheddar cheese (May 25, 2004)

the defiant  it did have some minimal success 8)


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## Lightning Guy (May 25, 2004)

I'd like to hear Plan_D's take on which fighter would win between the Spit XIV and the Shiden.

The Defiant would have killed the Roc.


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## plan_D (May 26, 2004)

You won't be able to hear it, but you can read it; The Spitfire Mk. XIV was the best dogfighter of the war, this means better than the Shiden. 

The Defiant would have destroyed the Roc, no questions asked.


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## cheddar cheese (May 26, 2004)

what was the MC.205 like at dogfighting?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 26, 2004)

well the fact it's italain means it's doomed to fail anyway..............


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## Lightning Guy (May 26, 2004)

I'm not sure that enough Mc.205s got into service to really form an informed opinion. The 202 was supposed to be pretty good and the 205 added power and firepower so I imagine it could handle itself very well.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 26, 2004)

but the italians never really got the hang of fighters, i think they were always outdated................


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## cheddar cheese (May 26, 2004)

thats true with panes like the Fiat G.50 and Breda 65, but i reckon the 202 and 205 were highly successful 8)


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## Lightning Guy (May 26, 2004)

The 202 did relatively well. I don't think more than a handful of 205s got into service but I could easily be wrong about that.


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## plan_D (May 27, 2004)

They would have to been in high numbers by 1943 to get a full successful service record, and they never really got into the war until 1941. And I don't think their pre-war projects were exactly on par with others.


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## Lightning Guy (May 27, 2004)

The Mc.205 entered service somewhere in mid-43 but only 265 were ever produced. Still, it was supposed to be an even match for the P-51.


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## plan_D (May 27, 2004)

I hope you know I meant that Italy didn't really get into the war until 1941, not the MC.205.


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## Lightning Guy (May 27, 2004)

Yeah. It took me a second but I realized that was what you meant. I just thought I woudl throw some numbers on the 205 out there. At the time of the Italian Armistace, the RA only had the grand total of 66 in service.


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## plan_D (May 27, 2004)

So, it's career could have never been full, and success filled. Still, if it could dogfight with the best of them, that's pretty good, especially for the Italians.


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## Lightning Guy (May 27, 2004)

Reportedly the Germans even used about a staffel's worth of them.


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## Erich (May 27, 2004)

are you aware of the Afrika Korp units such as the famous JG 27 served alongside Italien air units ?


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## plan_D (May 27, 2004)

I am aware of the Afrika Corps air units. But if the feeling was the same as in the air, the German pilots would have been sick of serving alongside the Italians.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 27, 2004)

i saw a program and it said the italians were more of a hinderance than a help to the axis??


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## plan_D (May 27, 2004)

A lot of Germans on the ground thought so, and Erwin Rommel was sick of the lack of command skills possesed by the Italian Commanders. Rommel actually made himself General of Axis forces in Africa. 
He never believed that the Italian fighters, or commanders had the capability to fight an effective war against such a 'worthy foe' as the British. He tried his hardest to relegate them to secondary roles but found with lack of his own German troops he had to use the Italians to cover vital flanks which sometimes proved a fatal flaw. 

Von Paulus had the same problem with the Romanians, and his feeling was strengthened in Stalingrad when the only place the Russians broke out was through the Romanian held part of the line.


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## Lightning Guy (May 27, 2004)

Look at how much trouble the Italians had trying to take Greece. They had to be bailed out by German troops there as well.


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## plan_D (May 27, 2004)

When they attacked Libya in 1941 they outnumbered the British 'Nile' Army defending Eygpt 6 to 1. They pushed the British back some 80km before the Nile army counter-attacked and took 130,000 prisoner, with a loss of only 500 dead and 1,200 wounded.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 28, 2004)

yeah i've heard about that before, it's pretty amazing, either we were to good, or most proberly, they were really bad......................


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## plan_D (May 28, 2004)

I've said it countless times, that's probably where you've seen it.  

I'd say both, if you've seen the way they went about it, it was a very good idea. 
The British swooped right round the Italian frontline which ended in the desert, where the Italians thought it to be impassable. The British marched through the desert, around the Italian frontline and hit them at their rear artillery areas, and encircled the Italian frontline. They probably could have got out of it with their weight in numbers, but they panicked and surrendered.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 28, 2004)

sounds like something the french would do....................


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## plan_D (May 29, 2004)

What, the surrender? Well if you look at Fall Gelb the incident involving the Maginot Line is a lot like what I just described.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 29, 2004)

wouldn't it be interesting to have a war between the french and italains???


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## plan_D (May 29, 2004)

They'd both be surrendering to each other all the time.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 29, 2004)

we could open a book on who would surrender first, my money's on the french...............


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## plan_D (May 29, 2004)

The Italians would surrender, the French would run away.


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## cheddar cheese (May 30, 2004)

dont diss the italians  diss the french


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 30, 2004)

or what, you'll send the french army to obliterate us??


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## cheddar cheese (May 30, 2004)

no, ill send the italian army 8) no not army, mafia


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## plan_D (May 30, 2004)

I'll 'diss' the Italians all I want.


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## cheddar cheese (May 30, 2004)

you do that 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 30, 2004)

you realise now you've said that you can't object to him doing so??


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## plan_D (May 30, 2004)

He doesn't really have any reason to defend the Italian forces of World War 2 nor does he have anything to back it up.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 30, 2004)

i think our geography project's gone to his head..............


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## cheddar cheese (May 30, 2004)

im not italian in that though, im a german customs officer with a really setreotypical voice 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 30, 2004)

ah, i'm the american government...............


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## plan_D (May 30, 2004)

What's this? We had a Geography project about Italy but that was the current situation, and there was no acting or anything. 

We had a decent project in History though, when I was in year 8. We split the class into American, British, French and German governments. And each one had a prime minister or president, and it was the Treaty of Versailles. I was the German prime minister, and I had to argue things off the Treaty, like their restrictions. 
That was fun, but completely off topic, so I'll stop.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 31, 2004)

i'm trying to come up with a best fighter topic we haven't covered already................


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## cheddar cheese (May 31, 2004)

what about fiat G.50 vs Breda 65?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 31, 2004)

no i mean like "what was the best escort fighter?" or something like that, i tend not to focus on just two aircraft.........................


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## Lightning Guy (May 31, 2004)

Probably only two contendors there, the P-51 and the P-38. Three guesses where I stand . . .


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## plan_D (Jun 1, 2004)

P-47 did a good job escorting as far as it could go, and weren't the P-47Ns just damn good...


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 1, 2004)

P-47N was only ever used in the Pacific though. And the P-47s going as far as they could wasn't very far.


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## plan_D (Jun 1, 2004)

Things still need escorting in the Pacific, and the P-47N had a ferry range of 2350 miles. Not that bad...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 1, 2004)

one question, could the P-38 make it all the way to berlin??

because i always thought the only one to make it all the way was the P-51 with jugs................


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 1, 2004)

The P-38 was more than capable of making it to Berlin. As a matter of fact P-38s were the first Allied fighters to fly over Berlin. As another matter of fact, P-38s in the Pacific flew combat missions of 2,300 miles or the ferry range of a P-47N.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 1, 2004)

but wasn't it suiside fighting in a P-38 with the tanks on??


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 1, 2004)

It was suicide fighting in anything with tanks on. The J and L Lightnings carried as much as 424 gallons of internal fuel (typical external load was 330 gallons) so they had plenty of fuel to make it back on.


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## plan_D (Jun 1, 2004)

Again the P-38 is twin engined a great increase in range. The P-47N was still a great fighter, as it was escort with 1000 miles combat radius it still proved a huge worth to the forces there.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 1, 2004)

i better be getting E-cards from you guys on thursday...............


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 1, 2004)

you doing anything for you birthday lanc? if not, we'll take you bowling 8)


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 1, 2004)

The P-47N was the only fighter than could seriously challenge the range of the P-38. Still, it was far too-late coming in the war to make much of an impact and probably shouldn't be compared to the P-51 and the P-38 as an escort fighter.


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## plan_D (Jun 2, 2004)

It still saw service even if it was only in the PTO. That's a good way to knock out the competition, and the Mustang could get the bombers to Berlin and back so they could match the P-38. 

I've got the P-38L ranged at 2,260 miles on maximum fuel. P-51D to dry tanks 2,080. P-47D on tanks 1,900 miles, P-47N on tanks 2,350 miles. These are all ferry ranges.


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 2, 2004)

The 2,260 mile range is a common figure, however it is incorrect. On August 27th, 1942, Milo Burcham flew a P-38F for 2,907 miles over 13 and a half hours. Calculations revealed that if he had absolutely drained the tanks and jettisoned the external tanks when empty that could have been stretched to 3,167 miles. And that was a P-38F, the L model carried 124 gallons of additional fuel.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 2, 2004)

but that's an extreme case, i'm sure they couldn't all do that...................


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## plan_D (Jun 2, 2004)

How do they know he flew this far? Calculations of range are most of the time wrong but never 1000 miles off.


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 2, 2004)

The flight was done over the cotinental US. Since he was flying over easily recognizable cities (and I assume tracked by radar) it was relatively easy to judge how far he traveled. 

Why couldn't they all do that Lanc? He wasn't flying a specially modified plane and it even carried a full ammo load. Now not every pilot would be up to that strain, but the plane definitely was.


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 3, 2004)

thats pretty amazing


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 3, 2004)

3,167 isn't a very impressive ferry range for a twin engined plane is it??


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 3, 2004)

but like he said, this was a standard P-38F carrying full ammo load, it wasnt the recon version or anything.


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 3, 2004)

3,000+ miles is an impressive ferry range for just about anything from the era especially a fighter. On a true very mission, now ammo would have been carried (saving upwards of 1,500lbs) and the fuel tanks would have been jetisoned once empty (cutting drag and thus increasing speed without increasing fuel consumption). The result is the ferry range would be a few hundred miles greater.


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## plan_D (Jun 3, 2004)

What is this? Ammo would save up to 1,500 lbs, you mean firing off ammo. But you're not taking into account combat. So either it will have a full load of ammo or it will have been in combat using more fuel from manuvers and constant change in throttle, like a car uses more fuel if you are changing your acceleration all the time. 

3,000 + isn't impressive for a twin-engined Recce plane.


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 3, 2004)

I'm sorry, there was a typo in my last post. I had meant to note that on a true ferry mission NO ammo would have been carried. I wasn't refering to a combat mission. And why isn't 3,000+ miles impressive? The only recon plane I know of that could match that was the POST-war Mossies.


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## plan_D (Jun 4, 2004)

Exactly another twin-engined plane. It's good, yes but it's not something to shout about if you're comparing it to a single-engined plane. The Spitfire PR. XI could achieve 2000 + miles, and that's single-engined.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 4, 2004)

a few mossies were modified after VE day for use in the pacific, but they we a bit late, they could hit 3,500miles, giving tham a ferry range of 7,000+ miles.............


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 4, 2004)

No Lanc. They didn't have a ferry range of 7,000 miles. When discussing the range of the P-38F it should be noted that we are talking about the range of a FIGHTER. Find me another fighter from WWII capable of making a 3,000 mile flight. And for comparison numbers, the ferry range of a B-17G was 3,400 miles. Now when a fighter can come within a few hundred miles of matching the range of a 4 engined bomber, that is something to shout about.


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## Huckebein (Jun 5, 2004)

Mosquito FB VI: Range = 1,885 miles, therefore ferry range = 3,770 miles

Have I done something wrong here?


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 5, 2004)

Yes. You have attempted to make its combat RANGE its combat RADIUS. A combat range of 1,885 miles means the entire distance it can fly at economical power settings on a combat mission. Once things like take-off, formation, climb to altitude (not that important for a Mossie mission), and reserves for combat and emergencies, you are left with a combat radius a fraction of the maximum range (I would guess about 600 miles or so). The ferry range of a plane is usually a few hundred miles greater than the combat range since a ferry mission is flown at best speed an altitude, minus extra weight (like ammo or bombs), and without the need to been in combat reserves.


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## Huckebein (Jun 5, 2004)

Hmm, I always thought range and radius was the same, but I'll take your word for it - I just wasn't aware the P-38 had _that_ much of a distance advatange over the Mosquito...


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 5, 2004)

Range and radius are often mistaken. Range is simply how far a plane can fly in a straightline. Radius is how far it can fly AND come back (which is nice to do).


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## kiwimac (Jun 6, 2004)

Focke-Wulf FW 190d series or Ta 152

Kiwimac


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 6, 2004)

the 152 was one hell of a fighter.........

i don't think i've given my favourite yet have I????


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 7, 2004)

we know what you're gonna say though


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 7, 2004)

Surely you're not going to say the Lancaster was the best fighter of WWII.


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 7, 2004)

if he did...

i thinks he'll say mosquito though.


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 7, 2004)

Oh C.C. . . . your last sig was so much better.


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 8, 2004)

it'll be back soom probably  i feel italian at the moment


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 8, 2004)

my favourite fighter is actually the meteor, it was, after all, the best................


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 8, 2004)

no it wasnt.


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 8, 2004)

Meteor couldn't out run the 262. Mk. I's were slower that numerous prop-driven aircraft and I imagine just about anything could outmaneuver one.


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 8, 2004)

and if they were such great fighters, why did they only mainly use them for intercepting V1's?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 8, 2004)

because they didn't have the range for combat in europe...............


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 8, 2004)

but late in the war the raf had captured airfields practically on the german border, they could use them from there


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 8, 2004)

What good is a fighter that lacks the range for combat in the ETO? Where else is it going to fight? Certainly not the Pacific.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 9, 2004)

but how can a jet fighter fly escort missions, it worked as a interceptor, but they didn't need many in the ETO.......................


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## Erich (Jun 9, 2004)

why not ? sure it would be short lived. Consider the April 8th ? 1945 day light mission where unarmored Bf 109's attacked B-17's in part of a greater stupid overall scheme to take down as many US a/c by ramming.
sonderkommando elbe. JG 7 provided some high altitude cover of the Bf 109's but were involved with their own bomber intercept mission and warding of the multitude of P-51's.

Erich


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 9, 2004)

> but they didn't need many in the ETO.......................





> why not



as i said, it was the range thing, jets couldn't fly escort missions, and so were not that usefull for much other than interceptors.......................


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 9, 2004)

and if the meteor is stuck back in blighty, it wouldnt have intercepted very many planes at all in that time of the war.


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## Erich (Jun 9, 2004)

The RAF spits and other RAF a/c were not ordered to fly escort nor long range intruder type missions. They were to clean up and pounce on the northern German air fields and counter any approaching German fighters as well as strafe the northern road systems, trains, trucks, people and anything that moved.

the US was instructed to cover the bombers first and if no Luftwaffe intrusion was then to drop down and shoot anything up, especially airifields and cargo-trains.

The Me 262 from where it was located could easily of performed escort missions for JG 300 and 301 which were stationed somewhat close in proximity to Brandenburb-Briest and the Berlin corridor. But JG 7 was never called on to perform this function, rather to attack the US 4 engine bombers and try to avoid contact with P-51 escorts as much as possible. The jet bomber formations that acted in the fighter role performed the same criteria and only when moved to Prague did they encounter missions against Russian a/c and ground support vehicles where they made a real mess of the Soviets. but from their logbooks the proof was the bomber pilots were not experienced in the fighter to fighter roles and upon landing(s) they were shot down without mercy by US Mustangs....


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 9, 2004)

So the Meteor was only useful as an interceptor? And not the best interceptor the Allies had. How can an aircraft that limited in its utility be argued for being the best jet in the war?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 11, 2004)

we're defining best jet by ability, not usefullness............


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## Erich (Jun 11, 2004)

Lanc the Meteor really did not prove itself and was developed way too late to show any improvement to the Allied war effort. heck the jet needed oversizing, more armament, longer range including larger fuel tank(s). Several different a/c in the RAF/US arsenal could tackle the V-1 which was not that fast anyway. having a jet to perform one on one with the Me 262 would have been something but the Allies resorted to keeping the fighter prop driven a/c in the line, besdies having overwhelming numbers why even bring another piece of untried equipment on ?

two cents for your thinking cap


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 12, 2004)

> besdies having overwhelming numbers why even bring another piece of untried equipment on ?



once again, you're talking about it's combat record, we're talking about it's ability..................


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 12, 2004)

We've been through all of this Lanc. The 262 was faster, climbed faster, had more range, and more armament than any mark of the Meteor to see service. There is ability. And in case you hadn't noticed, usefullness and ability are usually connected.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 13, 2004)

not normally, the G0-229 had amazing perormance stats, but didn't see any use..................


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 13, 2004)

Which is a ridiculous example and I think you know it. If an aircraft had the ability and saw action it would prove its usefulness. Now, either the Meteor saw the action but its usefulness was limited by its ability and the 262 was better or the Meteor didn't see the action which the 262 did and you still have a powerful argument for the 262 being the superior of the two since it was able to have some impact on the war.


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## Erich (Jun 13, 2004)

Lanc the Go229 and the Meteor are almost irrelvent. The Go never flew in action and the Metero was involved in V-1 shoot
downs.............oooooooooooh how impressive is that ? not very bud. If the little jet would of been transferred to the mainland and taken on 109's, Fw 190's and even Me 262's then we could feasibly talk, but there are no comparisons. The Meteor was fast drawn up a/c but there was not enough time to furhter the development as there were other drawing board projects taking precedence such as the Vampire.........

there is no combat record of note and it had no ability so lets let the thread lie............dead


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 14, 2004)

> the Meteor saw the action but its usefulness was limited by its ability



it was limited by it's range, the main use for fighters in '44/'45 was for flying escort missions, which the meteor couldn't do, the 262 was sucessfull becuase it was primarily a interceptor, which the meteor coul;d do................


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 14, 2004)

So then the Meteor wasn't even needed in '44/'45 while the Germans desparately needed the 262, yet another reason the 262 should be considered the better jet.


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## Erich (Jun 14, 2004)

and because of these limitations the Meteor should not even be considered anywhere even close with any variant of the Me 262 of Ar 234.


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## Erich (Jun 15, 2004)

different approach. The top prop job in the ETO

Ta 152H-1 flown by Willi Reschke and profiled by Claes Sundin


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 15, 2004)

Did the Ta 152 do enough in the war to be considered? I think some guidelines need to be laid down for what we are talking about when discussing best. Is it performance only? What part does impact play? Should expiremental types be included? For my part, the Ta 152 was a great fighter with amazing performance, but I don't consider it because it's role was far too limited.


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## Erich (Jun 15, 2004)

I would consider the operative issues of the a/c, performance yes but not necessairly number # 1. Adversaries included;

sure we could consider the what if had the Tank been issued to other units but it wasn't and this is one of the reasons it was special. It could take a simple pilot with very few missions and make him accomplish much.

but in any case I thought I would just throw this out............geez

please no c mments about the P-38 and Mossie ok ? how about some other a/c guyz > !


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 16, 2004)

what about a veteran hurricane Vs. a rookie/medium Fw-190??


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 16, 2004)

Pilot quality was (within reason) the most important thing in a dogfight. I imagine the Hurricane should have little trouble turning inside the 190 but that is about its only advantage. Still, a good pilot will be sure to use his plane's advantages are keep away from his opponent's strengths.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 16, 2004)

i thoguht you would mention pilot quality that's why i was carefull to put in their skill..................


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 16, 2004)

Well it was crucial. In terms of performance, an A6M5 was a good match for a Hellcat. The Japanese were simply out of capable pilots and so the USN cut them out of the sky.


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## David m Card (Jun 18, 2004)

Lightning Guy said:


> Well it was crucial. In terms of performance, an A6M5 was a good match for a Hellcat. The Japanese were simply out of capable pilots and so the USN cut them out of the sky.


Referring back to the best and badest looking fighter and or single twin engine aircraft i think it would be the Hawker Typhoon and a P-51.I also like the Jug and a avid fork tailed deviled fan as well.


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 18, 2004)

Typhoon was great for ground attack and handled itself well at low level, but I haven't seen much info about it as an air-to-air fighter.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 18, 2004)

it was designed as a high performance fighter but they were dissapointed with it's capabilities, it was almost abandond but they tried it as a ground attack aircraft, and were pleasantly suprised, it was also used as a low level interceptor.....................


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 18, 2004)

Yeah, I've heard it was the only thing the British had at the time that could catch the 190s on their low-level raids.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 18, 2004)

it was the first plane on either side that could beat the mossie (up till then the fastest plane of the war) for speed......................


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## lesofprimus (Oct 15, 2004)

Well.. I took the time to go through the whole topic, and there are only 4 votes on "Best Fighter"... To open this up again, here are the votes:

3 votes for the Ta-152 (rchristi, kiwi-mac, erich)
1 vote for the Meteor(Lanc)

I vote for the Ta-152 as well..... Even tho it was used in small amounts on limited duty, it far surpassed anything else in the air, and the pilots that flew them were the best of what was left...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 16, 2004)

yeah my vote for meteor as best fighter was a bit of a joke and i withdraw my vote.................


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## lesofprimus (Oct 16, 2004)

OK.. Then what do u vote for????


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 16, 2004)

i don't know yet..............


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 16, 2004)

Well I dont vote for either. Im going with the P-38. (but you guys probably already guessed that)


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## lesofprimus (Oct 16, 2004)

Totals so Far:

4 votes for the Ta-152 (rchristi, kiwi-mac, erich, lesofprimus)
1 vote for P-38 (CC)


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 16, 2004)

have you read the other best fighter threads though? there are several other votes for several other planes.


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## lesofprimus (Oct 16, 2004)

Actually I have read 2 of the 3 and compiled votes. i will go through the 3rd one and update....


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 16, 2004)

There have been votes for the corsair and the spit and the hurricane though...and the B-239  have you checked the ones ion the archive forum?


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## lesofprimus (Oct 16, 2004)

OK.... I went through all the Best Fighter threads and have the numbers... Here they are...

12 votes Ta-152H... (lesofprimus, erich, evan, kiwimac, grg, aussiejim, patc007, jamcam, sodenstrike, planeguy, polish, gregp)
5 votes P-51D Mustang (pland, birdman, ahanswurst, sanantoniobob, guest)
3 votes Spit MkXIV... (johnnie, gemhorse, hotspace) 
3 votes F4U-4 Corsair... (archer, corpasselberry, thorlittle)
2 votes Mossie... (lanc, bronzewhaler)
1 vote Hurricane... (CC)
1 vote P-38L... (LG)
1 vote Spit MkIX... (maestro)

I think the #'s speak for themselves.... 

Anyone care to flipflop their choice, or add to the voting, SPEAK UP NOW......


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 17, 2004)

am i allowed to say the hawker fury?? it was derived from the tempest and was a bit late for the war??


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## lesofprimus (Oct 17, 2004)

I dont think the Fury qualifies as best fighter.... Air to Air fighter.....

But if u feel that it deserves the title, then so be it.... Dont think ull get alot of agreement on it.....


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## GermansRGeniuses (Oct 17, 2004)

I didn't vote for the Ta-152...


If I did, I change it to the Mustang "D" or Spit Mk. XIV...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 17, 2004)

> I dont think the Fury qualifies as best fighter.... Air to Air fighter.....
> 
> But if u feel that it deserves the title, then so be it.... Dont think ull get alot of agreement on it.....



sorry perhaps i should have said the hawker fury monoplane, not the bi-plane, you'll proberly know it better as the sea fury................


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## lesofprimus (Oct 17, 2004)

GrG, gotta choose one buddy....

Lanc, I knew which one u were referring to.... U think that was a better dogfighter than the Ta-152H or the P-51D, or Spit XIV?????


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 17, 2004)

it has the highest performance figures of any production piston engined plane, it's the only one that has any chance of winning the rino air races without any modification, the poll is for the best fighter, not the best dogfighter................


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## lesofprimus (Oct 17, 2004)

Same thing to me.... Best fighter is best air to air fighter....


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 17, 2004)

To me best fighter is one that was successful and good at air to air...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 18, 2004)

to put the sea fury into perspective, since the end of the second world war the fleet air arm has shot down 25 planes, 24 of those were shot down by harriers over the Falklands, the other one was a Mig-15, shot down by a sea fury.................


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 18, 2004)

How does that put the Sea Fury in to perspective


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## lesofprimus (Oct 18, 2004)

Lanc this is for WWII aircraft, not POST WWII......

U have said numerous times that the Mossie was the best fighter..... Are u changing ur mind now????


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## evangilder (Oct 19, 2004)

Are you talking the whole war and all theaters? I am asking because early in the Pacific war, the Zero ruled the skies. The the Hellcat and the Corsair came out and changed that dramatically.

In Europe, the Spitfire stands out as it was involved in the war before the US got involved and stayed in the thick of things throughout the war. The Mustang was also a key player. The FW-190 was also one major player.


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## lesofprimus (Oct 19, 2004)

We are talking best Air to Air Fighter in any theatre... As Im sure u understand, there are many variables in this..... Performance, firepower, ability, usage, multirole ect ect.....


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## evangilder (Oct 19, 2004)

I'd have to go with the Hellcat then. It performed a wide variety of roles and did them well. It was versatile and with lessons learned from the Wildcat, the Hellcat was easy to build and maintain. During the "Great Marianas Turkey Shoot", Hellcats downed more than 160 enemy aircraft in a single day! 

David McCampbell shot down 7 himself. During the Battle of the Leyte Gulf, McCampbell and his wingman, Ensign Roy Rushing bagged 15 Japanese planes in one engagement, McCampbell got 9, Rushing 6.

To Navy pilots, the Hellcat was called the "Ace Maker".


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 19, 2004)

The P-38 still gets my vote then. It could out dive and out climb Zero's, and while i do not have any current evidence, i have read a couple of pilot accounts where they have said the P-38 and turned _inside_ the Zero. It was also extremly good at performing its many roles, and as far as I know it was the only American fighter in service throughout the whole of the time America were in the war 8)


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## evangilder (Oct 19, 2004)

Yes, CC, that is correct, The P-38 was the only American fighter in production before, and continually throughout the war. Later models of P-38 could turn inside the Zero. The earlier models probably would not have been able to. The J and L models introduced a host of modifications that made it manuever better. Alot of innovations were introduced with the P-38.

But it was not an easy plane to work on. I still stand by the Hellcat. 
My $.02


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 19, 2004)

i was under the impression that it could only out turn the zero at high speeds when the zero wasn't as nimble, i doubt it could turn inside it at low speed..................


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 19, 2004)

lanc, it wasnt long ago that you said:

"No plane in the war could turn inside a Zero"

Dont deny you said that, cos we had a heate debate about it, you challenged me to find evidence...




The P-38 was a great recce plane too 8)

I can understand why you are going with the Hellcat though 8) But I just think the P-38 has the edge...


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## evangilder (Oct 19, 2004)

The P-38 was a great plane, I agree. I just think the Hellcat was a bit better. I will give you that with 2 engines, the P-38 had an edge with survivability. Nothing like redundancy for safety!


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 19, 2004)

A fair share of aces also flew P-38's.


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## lesofprimus (Oct 19, 2004)

CC, you change ur mind so damn often it aint even funny.... U said in earlier posts atleast 3 times that the Hurricane was ur pick.. Now its the -38....

Evan, you had stated in a previous post that the -152 was ur pick, but I can see why u changed to the Hellcat, as it is one of my favorites... But for the Hellcat in aerial combat, it was the group tactics, such as the Thatch Weave, that made the Hellcat so formidable... Plus the opposition that the Hellcat faced in the air, pilotwise, was greatly diminished...

For me the Ta-152 was and is the plane to beat... As my combined survey results show....

10 votes Ta-152H... (lesofprimus, erich, kiwimac, aussiejim, patc007, jamcam, sodenstrike, planeguy, polish, gregp) 
6 votes P-51D Mustang (Pland, GrG, birdman, ahanswurst, sanantoniobob, guest) 
3 votes Spit MkXIV... (johnnie, gemhorse, hotspace) 
3 votes F4U-4 Corsair... (archer, corpasselberry, thorlittle) 
2 votes Mossie... (lanc, bronzewhaler) 
2 votes P-38L... (LG, CC)
1 vote Spit MkIX... (maestro) 


Until Lanc explains his change in heart, his vote stands on the Mossie....


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 20, 2004)

I wasnt informed of the P-38 back then though Les...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 20, 2004)

> The P-38 was a great recce plane too



but not as good as the mossie, and before you say the P-38 was better, the americans bought mossies for the role, so they obviously thought the mossie was better for recon than the P-38....................


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 20, 2004)

Still pretty damn good though.

However, recce isnt fighting, so lets move on.


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## evangilder (Oct 20, 2004)

I don't recall voting for the -152, but if you said I did, I might have. But I am sticking with the Hellcat because of it's ruggedness and ease of maintenance. I won't change now, I promise.


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## lesofprimus (Oct 20, 2004)

Ok once again updated....

10 votes Ta-152H... (lesofprimus, erich, kiwimac, aussiejim, patc007, jamcam, sodenstrike, planeguy, polish, gregp) 
6 votes P-51D Mustang (Pland, GrG, birdman, ahanswurst, sanantoniobob, guest) 
3 votes Spit MkXIV... (johnnie, gemhorse, hotspace) 
3 votes F4U-4 Corsair... (archer, corpasselberry, thorlittle) 
2 votes Mossie... (lanc, bronzewhaler) 
2 votes P-38L... (LG, CC)  
1 vote Spit MkIX... (maestro) 
1 vote F6F Hellcat... (erich)


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## MichaelHenley (Oct 20, 2004)

What does the Ta-152H Look like? I've never even heard of it.


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## JCS (Oct 20, 2004)

Heres the Ta-152:

http://www.luftwaffepics.com/lta1521.htm

And I'm going to go with the 152 also.


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## MichaelHenley (Oct 21, 2004)

What's the difference between that and the Fw-190?


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## lesofprimus (Oct 21, 2004)

Ok once again updated.... 

11 votes Ta-152H... (lesofprimus, JCS, erich, kiwimac, aussiejim, patc007, jamcam, sodenstrike, planeguy, polish, gregp) 
6 votes P-51D Mustang... (Pland, GrG, birdman, ahanswurst, sanantoniobob, guest) 
3 votes Spit MkXIV... (johnnie, gemhorse, hotspace) 
3 votes F4U-4 Corsair... (archer, corpasselberry, thorlittle) 
2 votes Mossie... (lanc, bronzewhaler) 
2 votes P-38L... (LG, CC) 
1 vote Spit MkIX... (maestro) 
1 vote F6F Hellcat... (erich)


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## evangilder (Oct 21, 2004)

Add my vote to the Hellcat tally(Erich is listed for both the TA and the hellcat, by the way). It is an interesting roundup of planes. I would have thought the spit would have been ahead of the mustang in the voting.


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## NightHawk (Oct 21, 2004)

hmm i dont know if to vote for the mustang or for the spit,


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## lesofprimus (Oct 21, 2004)

My mistake evan.... The totals have been fixed..... Im not surprised the P-51 is ahead of the Spit... I think it was a better plane anyways....

11 votes Ta-152H... (lesofprimus, JCS, erich, kiwimac, aussiejim, patc007, jamcam, sodenstrike, planeguy, polish, gregp) 
6 votes P-51D Mustang... (Pland, GrG, birdman, ahanswurst, sanantoniobob, guest) 
3 votes Spit MkXIV... (johnnie, gemhorse, hotspace) 
3 votes F4U-4 Corsair... (archer, corpasselberry, thorlittle) 
2 votes Mossie... (lanc, bronzewhaler) 
2 votes P-38L... (LG, CC) 
1 vote Spit MkIX... (maestro) 
1 vote F6F Hellcat... (evangilder)


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## MichaelHenley (Oct 21, 2004)

I gotta bring this even, so i'll vote the spit.
Did eric spam vote ?


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## lesofprimus (Oct 22, 2004)

OK MH.... Your vote has been added...

11 votes Ta-152H... (lesofprimus, JCS, erich, kiwimac, aussiejim, patc007, jamcam, sodenstrike, planeguy, polish, gregp) 
6 votes P-51D Mustang... (Pland, GrG, birdman, ahanswurst, sanantoniobob, guest) 
4 votes Spit MkXIV... (johnnie, gemhorse, hotspace, michaelhenley) 
3 votes F4U-4 Corsair... (archer, corpasselberry, thorlittle) 
2 votes Mossie... (lanc, bronzewhaler) 
2 votes P-38L... (LG, CC) 
1 vote Spit MkIX... (maestro) 
1 vote F6F Hellcat... (evangilder)


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## NightHawk (Oct 22, 2004)

my vote gose to the p-51


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## lesofprimus (Oct 22, 2004)

Updated once again...

11 votes Ta-152H... (lesofprimus, JCS, erich, kiwimac, aussiejim, patc007, jamcam, sodenstrike, planeguy, polish, gregp) 
7 votes P-51D Mustang... (Pland, GrG, birdman, ahanswurst, sanantoniobob, guest, nighthawk) 
4 votes Spit MkXIV... (johnnie, gemhorse, hotspace, michaelhenley) 
3 votes F4U-4 Corsair... (archer, corpasselberry, thorlittle) 
2 votes Mossie... (lanc, bronzewhaler) 
2 votes P-38L... (LG, CC) 
1 vote Spit MkIX... (maestro) 
1 vote F6F Hellcat... (evangilder)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 22, 2004)

i guess i'll go for the corsair.................


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## lesofprimus (Oct 22, 2004)

I suppose u didnt see ur name under the Mossie Lanc?? U said time and time again in other threads that that was ur pic for best fighter....

Are u sure about ur change of mind this time???


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 23, 2004)

yeah sorry, i take back my vote for the corsair, i don't know what i was thinking at the time, i'm sticking with the mosquito NF.30....................

and cheers for keeping score les, it must have taken you ages to get all them votes.....................


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## NightHawk (Oct 23, 2004)

yeah great job les.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 23, 2004)

Yup. Have a beer


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## lesofprimus (Oct 23, 2004)

Hey no problem keepin score... It did take some time, but it puts it in perspective this way....

Ill be outta town for the next week or so, so hold down the fort....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 24, 2004)

ok we'll see what we can do.................

i don't think there's many more votes to come anyway.......................


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 24, 2004)

Nope. But meh, I'll do what I can


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 24, 2004)

which is very little......................


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## lesofprimus (Oct 24, 2004)

Hehe... Just copy old list and repost it with the vote change when a new vote comes up.... Even Nighthawk could do that..... Well, maybe not.....


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 24, 2004)

Hey lanc, dont be pessimistic again, Ive tried being a lot more helpful recently


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 24, 2004)

yeah sorry i was just thinking about how you always say you're useless.................


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 24, 2004)

I am useless


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 25, 2004)

then why did you say you didn't want me to say you were.................


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 25, 2004)

Absolutely no idea  Im weird like that


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 25, 2004)

to right *poke with stick*


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 25, 2004)

OK time to redirect ourselves back on topic


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 8, 2004)

Well there were a lot of great fighters however the one that stands out the most for me is the Messerschmitt Me-109 series. No other aircraft was built in such large numbers and no other aircraft made such an impact on a nations airforce. The Me-109 basically made up the Lutwaffe. If you want to go by just performance I would have to say though the Messerschmitt Me-262. No other aircraft could outfly it. It was unfortunate for the Germans that it entered service to late and not in the role best suited for it. Plus it was just a magnificant looking aircraft.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 8, 2004)

I can see where you are coming from on all points there, The 109 was a great plane, as was the 262. However you are wrong in saying that the 109 was the must numerous plane of the war - There were considerably more Ilyushin IL-2 Sturmoviks built, as is the case with the Fiesler FI-103 (Although not strictly a plane).


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 8, 2004)

and the komet would think nothing of overtaking a Me-262 at full power..............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 8, 2004)

The Komet blows up before it reaches full power.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 8, 2004)

Again you are true, however the Il-2 was not a fighter it was a ground attack aircraft and neither was the Fi-103. There were many great fighters though. The FW-190, P-51, Spitfire. And what about the Do-335 Pfeil, it was too late but was remarkable.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Nov 8, 2004)

Contrary to popular belief, the Pfeil actually DID enter service...


Not with the Luftwaffe, but rather as a form of defense over Dornier's main factory, flown by test and combat pilots...


They saw no little or no combat, but were reported to be seen in flight on various occasions over the factory by Mustang pilots...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 9, 2004)

Well either way I truely think that it is hard to determine the best fighter, because each great fighter has its own qualities that could qualify it as the best. I believe that it was not the plane but the man behind the controls that made the aircraft the best. Anyhow this is a great discussion.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 9, 2004)

The Pfeil is an amazing plane, and I agree wih you on the pilot business. But if Hartmann had been consigned to a Heinkel He-51 or something, im not so sure that he would have got 352 kills. You do need a good plane for the pilot to be most effective.

Here's a question, did the Heinkel He-100 ever enter service? Because I think it was the coolest looking fighter ever made


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 9, 2004)

I dont think it ever did, I think they only built like 12 of them and they were sold to easter european countries like Bulgaria and Romania after they were dont testing it. I believe it lost out to the Messerschmitt Bf-109. 
Actually I just found the story about it, I just read it in one of my books and it says this: This pleasant looking fighter was another failed attempt by Ernst Heikel AG to compete against the Bf 109. Disappointed by the loss of the Luftwaffe's fighter orders to BFW and it's Bf 109 and the failure of the He 112, Heinkel set out to build a lighter and faster fighter that was also cheaper and easier to build. The resulting Projekt 1035 was completed on May 25, 1937 and by the end 1937 the RLM had sanctioned a prototype and ten pre-production machines. The prototype flew on January 22, 1938 was very fast but was disliked due to high wing loading. The He 100 achieved some of it's speed by doing away with the anti-aerodynamic radiatoer and using a surface evaporative system for cooling. Even though the He 100 broke several world speed records, the RLM was solidly supportive of the Bf 109 and failed to order the He 100 into production. Six prototypes were eventually sold to the Soviet Union and three He 100D-0 went to Japan. The three He 100D-0's being armed with two MG 17 and a 20mm MG/FF. The remaining 12 He 100D-1 fighters were used to form a Heinkel-Rostock factory defense unit, flown by Heinkel pilots. However, in 1940, Goebbels publicised the He 100 to the extent that British intelligence reported the He 100 in large scale service as the He 113.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 9, 2004)

Ah thanks for the info mate


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## GermansRGeniuses (Nov 9, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> The Pfeil is an amazing plane, and I agree wih you on the pilot business. But if Hartmann had been consigned to a Heinkel He-51 or something, im not so sure that he would have got 352 kills. You do need a good plane for the pilot to be most effective.
> 
> Here's a question, did the Heinkel He-100 ever enter service? Because I think it was the coolest looking fighter ever made




S'far as I know, it did the same thing as the Do-335 - Factory protection...


Hey, adler, Ironically Rudel did become an ace, he got 11 kills in a Fw-190D-9 - WITH ONE REAL LEG!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 10, 2004)

Yes I new that he became an ace but if I recall his main aircraft was Ju-87 Stuka. Please correct me if I am wrong. I dont like to say things that may be wrong.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 10, 2004)

Nope the Stuka was his main aircraft  I think he managed to shoot down a couple of planes ith that, am I right?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 10, 2004)

You are probably right.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 10, 2004)

I dont think the Stuka would have helped in that role, it was a naff fighter.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 11, 2004)

Well atleast at the beginning of the war it was a hell of a dive bomber probably the best in its class. It was just outclassed to quickly and was too easy of a target for allied fighters. I dont even want to imagine what it must have been like to be a polish soldier and hearing the high pitched whine of the Stuka diving down on your position.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 11, 2004)

Yup, with those big ass cannons I cant think what else it would be used for, apart from maybe shipping attacks.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 11, 2004)

Truely impressive I think.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 11, 2004)

Yup, in the right environment the Stuka could be devastating. But it lacked the outright defenses to be the best, which is why I say the IL-2 was better.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 12, 2004)

I agree for a ground attack aircraft eh Il-2 was a much better aircraft, plus it was fast eneogh to defend itself against fighters and was quite armored.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

Quite armoured? It was a tank!  performace wise it was actually similar to the Stuka, but because it was so well armoured it could hold the enemy fighters off until the Yak-9's came


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 12, 2004)

How would you compare a Yak-9 to to a Me-109 or a Fw-190?


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

I dont actually know much about Russian aircraft...all I know about the Yak is that it was probably the best Russian fighter along with the Lavochkin La-7


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 12, 2004)

i dunno if it enetered service in WWII but the La-9 was onle hell of a fighter.................


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 12, 2004)

I think it did enter service, albeit very late in the war.


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## HealzDevo (Nov 12, 2004)

Has voting ended? If not I would like to vote for the Spitfire as the best fighter of WW2. It's my second favorite aircraft of all time. 2nd to the AH-64D Apache Longbow Tank Hunter-Killer Helicopter. The best fighter spitfires were in use for quite a while and managed to hold their own against an instrength luftwaffe and were marginally more manovoruable if I am correct than the Bf-109 in all the Spitfire incarnations.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 12, 2004)

There are 2 versions of the Spit on record... The IX and the XIV...... Pick one and Ill update the list....


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

Of course it doesnt have to be the IX or the XIV


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 13, 2004)

if i had to pick a spit i'd proberly go for the Mk.I or V..................


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

Nah Id go with the IX 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 13, 2004)

the seafire Mk.47 looks very good.............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

I like the Seafire.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 13, 2004)

only the ones with bubble canopies though..............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

Yup, I only really like bubble canopies.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 13, 2004)

is that just for the seafire or all spits?? or all planes??


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

All planes. Bf-109 being the only exception


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 13, 2004)

many planes look amazing with in-line canopies............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

Name me one plane where the in-line canopy looks better than the bubble canopy.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 13, 2004)

errr  ........


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

Exactly


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 13, 2004)

although the spit Mk.XXII was ugly and that had a buble canopie.......


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

Beautiful


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

Not so beautiful


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 13, 2004)

but look at the size of the rudder of the Mk.XXII..............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

That only makes it look better. I think the Spits with bubble canopies look great.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 13, 2004)

the 5-bladed props do look amazing however that rudder's just too big................


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 13, 2004)

I agree the La-9 was awesome, looking unfortunatly I dont know much about it. As for the AH-64D Longbow mentioned above. It's overated. Way to much maintenance for each flight hour and they break all the time. My unit which is a Blackhawk unit outflies our sister unit which is Apaches every month and we have to fly parts and mechanics to wherever they break on almost a daily basis.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

But when they work, what machines....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 13, 2004)

That is true once it is in the air it is powerful, but I believe very overated


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

Hmmmmmm I have to disagree with you there.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 13, 2004)

Well seeing how ur sitting in ur house in England and school is on Monday, and He's in Iraq and flies around the desert next to Apaches and sees them daily, I cant possibly see how u could disagree with him.... 

He should know, and u shouldnt, which tells me you should take some of what he says abou the Apache to heart.....


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 13, 2004)

So because im only a schoolkid im automatically wrong and my opinions mean shit? F*ucking discrimination


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## lesofprimus (Nov 13, 2004)

Ur opinion is not as informed as DerAdlers, nor is it based on anything solid such as field operations, or eyewitness accounts....

Therefore u should take his opinion as a matter of fact, not as an opinion such as yours is....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 14, 2004)

i heard nhumerous people say the AH-64D's TOO advanced to be a battlefield helicopter, one magazine also want as far as to say the wastland Lynx fitted with rockets, can't remeber which ones, is the best battlefield helicopter in the NATO inventory...............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 14, 2004)

When its working, its still better than any other 'copter out there


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2004)

Well cheddars opinion is deffinatly not wrong he is entitled to it, however even the Blackhawk itself (and I am not sayint this because I fly one) is a better weapons platform than the Apache. That is why our Elite special operations aviation unit 160th NightStalkers uses Blackhawks fitted with rockets and miniguns instead of Apaches. They dont have a singel AH-64 in there inventory. The Apache is way to advanced with electronics. They are fitted with an air conditioner to keep all the computers from overheating and if the air conditioner breaks the aircraft cant run up its weapons systems and is then rendered useless. Any way cheddar is entitled to his opinions and it just makes interesting conversations.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 15, 2004)

I admit the Apache is not the most reliable or parctical copter on the planet, but once the problems get sorted (and inevitably they will) then it will arguably be the best.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2004)

I think that by the time the aircraft becomes reliable and the bugs are worked out there will be a much better aircraft out there. Even though the comanche was scrapped there are some great things in the works right now. If you want to know what a great attack aircraft is it is the Cobra. It is simple and simple is always better. The thing never quits and the new models that the marines use the AH-1Z Super Cobra can do the same that the Apache can do. That is why the marines still use it. How did we get on this convo anyhow the Apache is not a WW2 aircraft obviously.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 15, 2004)

Yeah, I think we should get back on topic.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 15, 2004)

i agree so whats next to talk about in this forum


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 15, 2004)

Hmmmmmm.Russian Fighters? There hasnt been an awful lot of discussion on Russian Fighters.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 16, 2004)

I unfortunatly dont know much about them. I have speant most of my time reading and learning about German, American and British. They are the ones that fascinate me the most.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 17, 2004)

i like the looks of the I-16.............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 17, 2004)

And me. Did the Sukhoi Su-5 see service in WW2? If so, did it have much success?


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## lesofprimus (Nov 20, 2004)

I love Russian fighters.... Shows u how an piece of inferior crap can combat the superior German Luftwaffe....


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 20, 2004)

Yup...I think that was mainly down to the Russian pilots though, cos they made the P-39 Airacobra seem incredible...


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## lesofprimus (Nov 20, 2004)

Some of them did.. Most of them ended up as black smears on the Russian steppes.....


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 20, 2004)

Did the Russians ever use the P-39 developments; such as the P-63 Kingcobra?


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## lesofprimus (Nov 20, 2004)

Not that Im aware of.....


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 20, 2004)

Why did Bell think having a mid-mounted engine would have advantages? Im surprised they even got off the ground...


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## lesofprimus (Nov 20, 2004)

Well if u think about it, it does have some advantages, one of which is engine damage from groundfire....

As far as getting it off the ground, its all a question of center of gravity....


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 20, 2004)

The worst thing was that it had tricycle undercarraige...which isnt terribly good with a mid mounted engine 

On Pacific fighters flying the P-39 is a nightmare, i could get more kills flying a Komet


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## Nonskimmer (Nov 20, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> Did the Russians ever use the P-39 developments; such as the P-63 Kingcobra?



I think they used the P-63 very briefly in the far east against the Japanese, in the closing days of the war.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 20, 2004)

Ok, thanks 8)


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## Udet (Nov 22, 2004)

The soviets made very good planes during the war.

The La-5F and the final La-7 (La stands for "Lavochkin") could more than deal with any plane of the war at low altitude, you name them: Spitfire, P-51, P-38, P-47, Bf109 G´s K´s and the Fw-190. The same can be affirmed about the latest Yak series.

The La-7 carried poweful cannon armament (a few hundreds were fitted with 3-20mm ShVak cannons); the ugly part of the tale was that as altitude went up, the performance of most soviet fighters dropped dramatically. Yet, most of the aircombat in the eatern front took place at medium/low altitude.

However, as a whole the VVS had a vey mediocre performance throughout the "great patriotic war". It made the job with what they had available and with the style of putting their hardware into action. 

The ugliest part of the tale :losing 11,000 planes (+/-) to all causes, in 1945 only (Jan 1st-May8th, 1945) tells a lot of things about the performance of the VVS. (hastily trained/under trained pilots and a small but efficient Luftwaffe interceptor force). Such number was provided to me by a russian colonel of the air force in Moscow.

I do think the answer of what the best fighter of WWII was has no answer.
Each plane could do things the model opposite the lines could not do...and viceversa.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 22, 2004)

Welcome to the site 8)

Im not sure that it was a case of the planes being being amazing (they werent bad but they could have been a lot better) but more down to the pilots. Russian pilots were able to effectively utilise even the most hopeless equipment.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 22, 2004)

The Russians had a reason to fight too, they were saving there home land. I dont really think the German soldiers and pilots wanted to be there and fighting against an enemy that has a real reason to fight vastly puts you at a disadvantage.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 22, 2004)

Great point! 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 22, 2004)

Thankyou I try! Just kidding.


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## Udet (Nov 22, 2004)

Thanks for the welcome!

Well, I had to begin somewhere as a member of this forum. 8) 

I am firmly convinced history of WWII, as it has been written, is full of misconceptions, preconceived ideas, biases, manipulations and lies.

Many think the soviets produced only crappy aircraft and it was not like that. Their pilots, with a few exceptions, were poorly trained and took off by the thousands to never return throughout the entire conflict, but they made excellent planes (not the IL-2 though, which happened to be precisely a piece of crap).

The P-51, for instance, provides a clear example of what I am trying to say here.

See it in dozens of webpages, books and magazines: "the P-51 wholly outclassed the Bf109". Are they serious?

The issue is depicted in such dramatic fashion, readers can really get the vision a Bf109 stood no chance, at all, against the P-51.

There is no doubt the P-51 made one of the greatest planes of WWII -and aviation history-, but to affirm it was vastly superior to anything the Germans fielded against it is misleading.

Let´s talk a bit about Erich Hartmann. That he was a pilot perhaps of a different breed, yes. 
Still, skilfulness has its limits -same thing for that random thing known as "luck"-. Hartmann, an eastern front based pilot during the whole conflict, shot down 7 P-51´s over Romania, all in a Bf109G (IIRC, it was a G-10).

All the skill, courage and luck of a pilot can certainly mean nothing when complete inadequacy of his plane is part of the equation.

And that was just Hartmann. Many pilots in Bf109G´s and K´s sent P-51´s to bit the ground.

I digress: the P-51 was a great plane, but as any other plane in the conflict, it was excellent at some things and not so good at others.

Do an intense web search and if you find any site where the cons of the P-51 are detailed, then I will bow down and will give you anything.
 

Why?
Because, so far, I have never ever read on any cons about the P-51. It was "perfect".
However, veterans have enlightened me: it had its ugly things, which showed in the skies of Europe.

I stick to my conclusion: I could never tell which fighter was the best of WWII.

Cheers!


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## GermansRGeniuses (Nov 22, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> The worst thing was that it had tricycle undercarraige...which isnt terribly good with a mid mounted engine
> 
> On Pacific fighters flying the P-39 is a nightmare, i could get more kills flying a Komet




You'll quit thinking that once you get AEP...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2004)

I have to agree with Udet. All planes had there strong points and there week points. The P-1 was a great aircraft but the later Me-109 like the G and K and even the Fw-190D were just as good. I would even go to say that the Dornier Do-335 Pfeil was better then the P-51 it was just to late for the war.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 23, 2004)

> not the IL-2 though, which happened to be precisely a piece of crap



I cant disagree more, it was one of the best ground attack aircraft of the war, if not THE best.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2004)

Yeah I dont know how you can say it was a piece of crap. It was quite good. The only disadvantage it had was speed because it was so armored.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 23, 2004)

And even then it could go the same speed as the Stuka, and it could carry a lot more armament.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2004)

I think it was impressive


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## Udet (Nov 23, 2004)

Hello DerAdler and Cheddar!

Yes. The dogfighting variants of the Bf109 G and K were in equal terms with the P-51. 

The Fw190 D "Dora" was perhaps superior to the P51, and not to mention the Ta152. Yes, the latest variants of the Fw190´s saw service in small numbers, but they had striking performance records and a certain number of P-51 pilots did not live to tell the story when they encountered some of those few German machines.

Now, regarding the IL-2M, I do think I have sound arguments to affirm it was a piece of crap.

I do not think comparing the Shturmovik with the Stuka will bring clear conclusions. When you affirm the two aircraft had the same speed (which is correct) you are not taking into account one important fact: the IL-2 had a retractable undercarriage while the Stuka´s was a fixed one.

A non-retractable undercarriage will cause drag, so a bad point for the IL-2 in the speed department.

The IL-2 indeed caused important damage to the German ground positions, and perhaps that sole fact makes it a succesful ground attack machine, yet I do not think it achieved the magnitude of destruction the Stuka did during the glorious days of Barbarossa.

The swarms of IL-2´s perhaps killed as much of their fellow soldier comrades than they killed German troops, especially during Operation Bagration in the summer of 1944.

I do think its battle record was more the product of very high numbers sent to the battle rather than quality of the machine.

I have several hours on video showing Luftwaffe guncamera footage in the eastern front.

I assume most of the German kills shown came from a wide variety of German fighters: Bf109 F´s, G´s and K´s, Bf110, Fw190´s...

You can not understand the word clumsy until you see the IL-2M in the air.
Its maneuverability was virtually zero. The USAAF´s B-26 is a hummingbird compared to the IL-2.

In several shots, the Germans score some hits in certain parts of the plane which appear to absorb some level of damage. But in many many others, the view is even disturbing: the IL-2M´s getting virtually pulverized by the German guns, you can clearly see the bodies of the rear gunners falling down with limbs horribly twisted like rag dolls.

It appears like the first target was the rear gunner, which could be taken out without extreme trouble, then the German fighter would virtually place itself a few dozens of meters away from the IL-2 tail and then proceed to chew it.

That the IL-2M included a rear gunner as new feature has been totally overrated. The defensive machine gun doctrine practiced by all air forces during WWII proved to be a failure.

While all planes, you name it, fighters and bombers (Stuka, Bf110, IL-2M, B-17, B-24, Lancaster, Stirling, He111, Do17, Do217, Pe-2, etc.) which carried defensive machine guns would eventually shoot down a certain number of enemy interceptors, the concept itself was proved wrong.

No matter how heavily packed with defensive machine gun fire your plane is if it can not manouver with ease. Your less armed, but very fast and manouverable enemy will bring you down in bigger numbers.

From some conversation I have had with Russian veterans: the vast majority of the IL-2 crews were hastily trained, and there were many many cases when the rear gunners could hardly operate de 12.7 machine gun.

The high command of the VVS couldn´t care less: their sole concern was to push the German west as fast as possible with utter disregard of human cost. 

They told me the IL-2 was the aerial version of the soviet infantry, pressed into service to endure frightful losses yet managing to achieve the task.

I was also told, Germans captured intact IL-2M´s by the hundreds, and sent them back to Germany for further testing, and their conclusion was they could not believe such a piece of crap had been put into massive production.

The Germans were very objective about soviet armament and when they liked some of the soviet toys, they said it crystal clear and even pressed such captured weaponry into service in the German army.

The funny thing here is that only soviet airplane of the war which is famous and considered a brilliant machine for western guys happenes to be a armored flying turkey, while many of the indeed excellent planes such as the La-7 are frequently underrated.

Cheers!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 23, 2004)

> it was one of the best ground attack aircraft of the war, if not THE best.



in no way was it one of the best ground attack aircraft, it was comfortably the best tank buster, but many aircraft were better in the ground attack role, they were very different............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2004)

I think one can argue it was the best tank buster, no one said that it flew the best and as for the Stuka it was far from the best aircraft also.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 23, 2004)

> I think one can argue it was the best tank buster



go on, it what ways wasn't the IL-2 the best tank-buster??


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2004)

It could carry an impressive aray of armament and it was quite armored. The aircraft was itself a flying tank. I dont think it was the best aircraft but I think it was the best tank killer. I hate to say it for I am traditionally a Luftwaffe aircraft fan but I can not argue for the Stuka, it was simply outclassed but I think the Il-2 was the best all around tank killer and nothing more.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 23, 2004)

sorry i think there's been allot of confusion, i was quoting CC then...........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 23, 2004)

No prob thats what forums are for.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 23, 2004)

IL2: Best tank Buster and cetrtainly better than the Stuka.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 24, 2004)

I agree as I said, I think this discussion will just go back and forth and bach and forth with no it isn't and yet it is! Fun aint it?


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 24, 2004)

Yup. How did we get on to this anyway, its supposed to be about fighters


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 24, 2004)

I dont know one thing leads to another and then it just goes.


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## Udet (Nov 24, 2004)

I am aware the IL-2M does not belong in this thread. I simply wanted to answer the question I was asked. 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 24, 2004)

i don't think we were every gonna agree on the best fighter anyway..............


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 24, 2004)

Nope, dont think we ever will either.

Dont worry about it Udet, were _very_ laid back about rule on this site


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 24, 2004)

I dont think anybody ever completly agrees on anything considering we argue about every aircraft but that is what forums are for to post your thoughts and opinions.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 24, 2004)

and to hurl abuse at CC.................


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 24, 2004)

Yeah I guess that fun too.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 24, 2004)




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## cheddar cheese (Nov 24, 2004)

How would you know anyway, Ive never read any from you


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 24, 2004)

oh goody, lok who's here, that's my que to leave.................


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 24, 2004)

Why?  just think of the posts you can get...and the posts I can get!


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## germanace (Nov 24, 2004)

I like the P-51

in my oppion the hurricane did look better than the spit but the p-51 looked better than both


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## Hot Space (Nov 24, 2004)

You cannot beat the look of this baby:







Hot Space


----------



## Nonskimmer (Nov 24, 2004)

And I even like the colour!


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 24, 2004)

I alway's thought that colour looked better on a Spit then a Mustang 8) 

Hot Space


----------



## Nonskimmer (Nov 24, 2004)

I always liked the RAF/FAA markings.
Though I could never figure out why they'd use the French flag on the tail. :-"


----------



## Maestro (Nov 24, 2004)

I don't think it's a French flag, Nonskimmer. If it was, the white band would have been the same size that the blue/red ones. It would be a good question to ask to a RAF officer, though.

And personnally, I prefer those colours.


----------



## Nonskimmer (Nov 24, 2004)

I was only joking, mate.


----------



## Maestro (Nov 24, 2004)

Oh, right. It would still be a good question to ask to a RAF officer. "What those three bands stand for ? You already got the RAF crest on the sides..."


----------



## Nonskimmer (Nov 24, 2004)

A good question, I suppose.
Seriously though, there were many instances where the white stripe was the same size as the blue and red, strongly resembling the flag of France on the right side of the tail.
I always get a small chuckle from that. Just my simple mind at work, I guess.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 25, 2004)




----------



## Udet (Nov 25, 2004)

Switching to the "most handsome" issue?

My choice is simple and fast: The Butcher Bird, the Dora (Fw190 D) and the Ta 152.

I am also heavily attracted to the Bf109, especially those of the G series and the very clean shape of the K´s.

From the allies the Spitfire is the cuttest (very elegant as well.)

The Butcher Bird rules. Such a strong, sound and elegant line. Additionally, it has in my opinion, along with the Me 410, the most agressive look displayed by any plane of the war. Perhaps the Me 410 can go even further, it has a sinister look.

As to the USAAF fighters, while I do not consider them ugly, I do not find appealing at all.

The soviet La-7 looks very good in the profiles I have seen in books; however, my view changed when I saw gun camera footage and real photos: it is actually ugly, like if those men in the assembly lines had it assembled very hastily and without any great care.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 25, 2004)

I agree that the spit was for me the most attractive allied aircraft. I dont think it was the best but it was nice. However the best was the Me-109G series I believe. It was awesome. Probably not the best fighter but in my opinion it was the best.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 25, 2004)

What is "the Butcher Bird?"


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Nov 25, 2004)

The "Anton," Fw-190A series...


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 25, 2004)

Oh right, thanks 8) Im sure i was told that somewhere before. Ah well I must have forgot


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 25, 2004)

The Fw-190, m8. It was it's nickname.

Hot Space


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 25, 2004)

So I was just told


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 25, 2004)

It was just in case you forgot  

Hot Space


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 25, 2004)

Oh I see 

Forgot what?


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 25, 2004)

I dunno, I've forgotten now  

Hot Space


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 25, 2004)

Dang


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 25, 2004)

Dong  

Next question please  

Hot Space


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 25, 2004)

"What is your name?"

"Sir Robin of Camelot"


"What is your quest?"

"I seek the Grail"


"What is the capital of Abyssinia?"

"Er, I dont know...!"


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 25, 2004)

a good movie 8) 

Hot Space


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 25, 2004)

What movie? 

Thats A scenario I faced with the bus driver this morning


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 25, 2004)

He came from Abyssinia as well  

Hot Space


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 25, 2004)

The bus driver?


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 25, 2004)

I was being silly again  

Hot Space


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 25, 2004)

Do you want fries with that?


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 25, 2004)

No, my fingernails are fine, thank you  

Hot Space


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 25, 2004)




----------



## Medvedya (Nov 25, 2004)

Udet said:


> I am firmly convinced history of WWII, as it has been written, is full of misconceptions, preconceived ideas, biases, manipulations and lies.



He he! All recorded history is, friend.

The thing is, although every post here is for entertainment, that's not to say there is no academic value in it. The important thing is that we all strive to preserve the memory of those times. To be sure, everybody will have ideas and assumptions which are inaccurate, but the debates that go on here help to weed them out and gain as true as possible picture of what went on. It would be a terrible thing if the cataclysmic events of the Second World War were to be forgotten or worse still, taken for granted. I for one, am thankful that there are so many people out there who are interested in this part of history, and remember the sacrifices and sufferings that the people who lived though this period went through for all of our sakes.


----------



## Udet (Nov 25, 2004)

Hello DerAdler:

I do think the allies as victors, have conducted into some extent an effort to defame the Bf109.

Nevertheless, they give due credit to the clear superiority of the Bf109 over virtually all enemy fighters faced over Poland, France, Low Countries and the first years of Barbarossa in the USSR.

Again and again they frequently put it the Bf109 offered an initial stubborn fight during the first sorties flown by the 8th Air Force over Europe to then rapidly get blown out of the skies by their "superb perfect flawless machines" such as the P-47, P-51 and P-38.

A very misleading depicting of facts.

The Bf109 as pure dogfighter is second to none.

Not even during the Battle of Britain. The Bf109 E-3 which saw service during the Battle of Britain, had a fuel injection equipped DB601 A engine, a feature that gave a plus to the German fighters over the carbureted engines of the Hurricane and the Spitfire whose engines would cut out when pushed into negative G forces.

The sad shortcoming of the Bf109 over England in 1940 was its short range.

When you say the Bf109 (G versions) although of great look, probably did not make the best fighter it would be better to provide further input in order to reach clearer conclusions.

To which G versions would you be referring to?

The G version of the Bf109 was the most produced of all. There were dozens of assembly kits and sub-versions.

Some facts: the Bf109 of the G versions made the main and most numerous opponent to the fighters of the USAAF over Europe.

Above 25,000 ft the Bf109´s outperformed the P-51 which had a poorer high altitude maneuverability (a fact hardly mentioned by the allies who try to portrait the P-51 as a 100% perfect flawless fighter).

The Bf109 G6/AS was fitted with a very powerful DB605 AS engine for very high altitude performance; it outperformed the P-51 in combat sending important numbers of Mustangs down to the ground.

The Bf109 G-10 was perhaps even better against the P-51´s escorting the B-17´s boxes: it could fly circles around the Mustang at low speed dogfights at any altitude (another fact hardly mentioned by the allies; this was illustrated to me by veterans of the USAAF).

The Bf109 was not an efficient bomber interceptor though but I digress:as pure fighter is second to none, and it was proved in the skies of Europe throughout the entire conflict.

Some G versions, in certain assembly kits, overburdened the fuselage reducing its performance therefore its chances against the allied fighters.
 
Yet, the cleaner versions which I mentioned here are in equal terms against any allied machine.

But I have to agree with you DerAdler, the Bf109 is a wonderful looking plane.


----------



## Udet (Nov 25, 2004)

Medvedya:

All I can say is you are right. :bday:


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 26, 2004)

The Butcher Bird was the nickname given to the Fw-190.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

3 different people have told me that now


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 26, 2004)

There was this Butcher who had this Bird and he thought that he would give her the nickname of: Fw-190.

She wasn't too happy about it  

Hot Space


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)




----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 26, 2004)

Sorry didn't realize that others had already told you.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

S'ok 8)


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 26, 2004)

hey HS welcome back................


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

He's been back for weeks...


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 26, 2004)

no he hasn't.............


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

He has, he's been making the odd post in other forums for about 3 weeks now...


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 26, 2004)

A tad late but I'd say the Bf-110 is the best fighter 8)


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

Thats a first


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Nov 26, 2004)

I'm assuming you're joking (I hope so!) so I'm gonna say the Breda Ba-88.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

Ooooooo the Lince, a fine fighter that was, it striked fear into many allied hearts


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 26, 2004)

Hey hey , dont call my 110  , well ok its hardly a fighter , but could carry a nice weapon load you have to admit , and it could do a nice bit of damage to bombers 8)


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

Yeah I like the 110, a sturdy workhorse 8)


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 26, 2004)

I enjoy being the rear gunner , now all i need is a gunner that can shoot


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)




----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 26, 2004)

Hey! , im merely getting 'used' to it , thank god i have unlimited ammo , ill need it


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

On AEP yeah?


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 26, 2004)

Well i have Pf , but i still fly my 110 8)


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

I have PF too, and FB, but no AEP which is a bugger


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 26, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> hey HS welcome back................



I've been here most of the week, m8 8) Some of the IL2Skins Folk's are coming over here because it's more fun 8) 

Hot Space


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

Whatever turns 'em on


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 26, 2004)

Batteries  

Hot Space


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

My friend had a disturbing theory about recharging batteries the other day


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 26, 2004)

It doesn't have anything to do with touching your toes does it?

Hot Space


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

No, he isnt that disturbed


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 26, 2004)

So he's not like me then  

Hot Space


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

No  

I hope you're not admitting to toe abuse?


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 26, 2004)

I've sucked a few in my time   

Hot Space


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 26, 2004)

...............that don't sound right


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

No, it doesnt


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 26, 2004)

Forget that post   

Hot space


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 26, 2004)

Hot Space said:


> I've sucked a few in my time
> 
> Hot Space



Now Im mentally disturbed


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

Hot Space said:


> Forget that post
> 
> Hot space



Never!


----------



## Hot Space (Nov 26, 2004)

Yeomanz said:


> Hot Space said:
> 
> 
> > I've sucked a few in my time
> ...



I'm just plain.....................    

Hot Space


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 26, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> Hot Space said:
> 
> 
> > Forget that post
> ...



He says things like that all the time , just try not to have nightmares


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

Im already having them


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 26, 2004)

I've had 10 help


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 26, 2004)

Sorry mate, youve crossed the line, theres no going back now


----------



## Capt. Scott Tailwheel (Nov 26, 2004)




----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 27, 2004)

wow that's one hell of a pic...................


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

Its fake...


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 27, 2004)

Capt. Scott Tailwheel said:


>



Maybe it was , but i'd still love to dissagree .


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 27, 2004)

> Its fake...



how's it fake??


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 27, 2004)

I think he means its not a photo just a photo like looking pic


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

Its been superimposed...


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 27, 2004)

thats just what i was gunna say


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 27, 2004)

how do you know it wasn't taken like that??


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

The way the lighting is on the plane doesnt fit with the background


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 27, 2004)

i think it does..........


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

It doesnt, trust me


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 27, 2004)

*hides under the table*


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 27, 2004)

and so you should...............


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

Well he wont get shot at least


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 27, 2004)

Or hit round the head with a frying pan


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

Yes, rogue frying pans can be problematic


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 27, 2004)

and they hurt too


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

Do you want me to have a word with them?


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 27, 2004)

yep , and make me bacon and egg whilst your at it


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)




----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

Bad news im afraid, theres no bacon


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 27, 2004)




----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

No, wait! Theres some down the back of the sofa from lastnights bacon tasting evening  Its a bit furry but nothing a good microwaving wont sort out


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 27, 2004)

So thats where those fureballs came from


----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)

I think so, but ill have to check with my lawyer on that one


----------



## Medvedya (Nov 27, 2004)

I suspect Caseys moggie scavenged the leftovers from 'Bacon Night' - that's where your furballs are from......


----------



## Yeomanz (Nov 27, 2004)




----------



## cheddar cheese (Nov 27, 2004)




----------



## Adolf Galland (Dec 2, 2004)




----------



## Adolf Galland (Dec 2, 2004)

me262


----------



## Adolf Galland (Dec 2, 2004)

4X30mms 3 directly hited bullet can K.O. any alied fighters


----------



## Adolf Galland (Dec 2, 2004)

and at least 100mph faster than any allied fighters


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 3, 2004)

But also a lot less manoeverable, and the were used more for bomber killing than fighters...


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 3, 2004)

and extremely vanerable at take off and landing (as were most planes), which is a bad thing when you considder we had 'stangs flying constant patrols over their bases, they often had to scramble other fighters to cover them during take off...........


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 3, 2004)

Usually Fw-190D's


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 3, 2004)

And Doras will take a Mustang, at any altitude...



Oh yeah, Jv44 was ALL experten, so the Doras were maniacally flown, as well...


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)




----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 4, 2004)

> Usually Fw-190D's



dude late in the war they didn't have a choise, they put up what little they had...............


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

But thats what was being used mainly...


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 4, 2004)

like i said, it depends on what they had, they didn't have the aircraft to be picky..................


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

I know, but thats what the D9 was used for mainly.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 4, 2004)

whilst the As took on the bombers............


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

No, the D's protected the 262's during take off, engaging in combat ith the P-51's etc, once the 262's were up to speed and altitude they would go get the bombers....


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 4, 2004)

so what you're saying is that Fw-190As weren't used to take on american bombers??


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

No, the discussion is about the protection of 262's during takeoff and landing. They wouldnt send up 190's and 262's. I believe the 262's replaced the 190's on the bomber killing side of things in the late war.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 4, 2004)

like i said, they didn't have enough planes to choose what they sent up, they were literally sending up everything they had late in the war, and there weren't enough Me-262s to replace the Fw-190A...............


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

I KNOW THAT!

IM SAYING THAT THE FW-190D WAS PRIMARILY USED TO DEFEND THE 262'S DURING TAKE-OFF AND LANDING, IM NOT SAYING ANYTHING ELSE!


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 4, 2004)

> They wouldnt send up 190's and 262's. I believe the 262's replaced the 190's on the bomber killing side of things in the late war.



yes you did....................


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

I know, I was wrong about that, that was just a thought I had. But you keep questioning me on a relatively simple point, just to get your posts up probably.

Then again you always were a simple person.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 4, 2004)

> that was just a thought I had



surely you know better than that.......................


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

Its a reasonable point - I think the 262 was better at shooting down bombers than the 190A so I thought the Germans might have made the 262 their primary aircraft to send up in that sort of situation.
They wouldnt need D's to cover the A's.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 4, 2004)

no, i never said they did......



> I think the 262 was better at shooting down bombers than the 190A so I thought the Germans might have made the 262 their primary aircraft to send up in that sort of situation



The Fw-190A was just as good, and like i keep saying, THEY DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH AIRCRAFT TO CHOOSE WHAT THEY SENT UP!!!


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

I KNOW THAT!!! I WAS JUST SAYING THAT BECAUSE THE 262 WAS SO EFFECTIVE AT TAKING BOMBERS OUT THAT IT WOULD BE THEIR *PRIMARY* AIRCRAFT TO SEND UP, NOT ONE THEY WOULD ALWAYS USE, BUT ONE THEY WOULD PREFER TO SEND UP! DO YOU GET THE FRIGGIN' IDEA NOW??????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 4, 2004)

wow how do you get the text so big.......................


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

Magic...


----------



## Hot Space (Dec 4, 2004)

................or loads of glue  

Hot Space


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)

Or a bit of both


----------



## Hot Space (Dec 4, 2004)

Not really, I can only manged one way these day's  

Hot Space


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 4, 2004)




----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 4, 2004)

'Tis not a joke, but rather the truth...


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)

Well it wouldnt surpise me


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 5, 2004)

nor me


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 5, 2004)




----------



## Stallion_51 (Dec 15, 2004)

Hello all...new here! Great site...heaven for people like me who are suckers for anything to do with warbirds.

I'll have to weigh in and say....surprise! The P-51D Mustang - "Cadillac of the Sky"

Looking forward to many discussions with everyone.


----------



## evangilder (Dec 15, 2004)

Welcome, Stallion. Nice sig!


----------



## lesofprimus (Dec 15, 2004)

Its alittle big tho....


----------



## Stallion_51 (Dec 15, 2004)

Thanks Primus....I fixed it. Great art in your sig by the way.


----------



## lesofprimus (Dec 15, 2004)

U fixed what? Ur siggy is still the same size.. Too BIG....


----------



## Lightning Guy (Dec 16, 2004)

Here's another surprise . . . I'm not a big Mustang fan. Such a cliche of a pick. But an understandable one.


----------



## lesofprimus (Dec 16, 2004)

I like the Mustang, but i feel that there were better fighters during the war.....


----------



## Stallion_51 (Dec 16, 2004)

The Mustang's always been a favorite of mine and...although the Germans were hurting by the time it came out...it still put that final nail in the coffin, and also were able to escort the bombers all the way to Berlin and back.


----------



## remoraptor (Dec 16, 2004)

I'd go for the Mustang with the Me-262 and Tempest close behind. The deciding factor for me is the fact that the P-51 had the more impact on the War than the other two which means if the Me-262 had not been delayed in its deployment it would have been the greatest. 
Besides the P-51D didn't have the highest performance. Had it been necessary the P-51H would have dealt with the latest Axis fighters.


----------



## Stallion_51 (Dec 16, 2004)

raptor, yeah I shudder to think what would've happened without the creation and further development of the Apache/Mustang.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 16, 2004)

I prefer the Apache to the Mustang 8)


----------



## Stallion_51 (Dec 16, 2004)

With that Allison? Ewww... 

It's amazing what a little power will do...


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 16, 2004)

I like the Allison engine  Happens to be the engine of what I think is the best fighter, the P-38 Lightning...


----------



## Stallion_51 (Dec 16, 2004)

Gotta love the Lightning. I wish more were around. I've only seen one down here locally.


----------



## remoraptor (Dec 16, 2004)

A P-38 with Merlin engines.... Now that's a thought.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 16, 2004)

It was being designed at one stage with Merlins, but they cancelled the project.


----------



## wmaxt (Dec 16, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> It was being designed at one stage with Merlins, but they cancelled the project.



Aside from adding weight (I think it was 1000+lbs) it really wouldn't have been benificial the -30 allisions in the L model put out 1,750hp in WEP and the turbo's were making this power long after the supercharged merlins were losing power due to altitude - that's why the P-38L could clime higher.

The difference the merlin made in the P-51 was due to the addition of the supercharger much more than the ghange to the Merlin - a fine engine in it's own right.


----------



## Lightning Guy (Dec 16, 2004)

Kelly Johnson had initially wanted to put Merlins into the P-38 but the idea was shot down from the higher ups. The Merlin was more reliable and more powerful than the early Allisons and that would have benfited the P-38 early on in the war, especially in Europe. The F-30 series Allison was a very good engine and it did produce more hp than contemporary Merlins. The advantage that the Merlin would have offered would have been the fact that the Merlin could have used geared supercharging rather than turbosupercharging. This would have saved on complexity and allowed an exhaust hood to be fitted turning engine exhaust into thrust. All told, however, the P-38L was probably as good or better than any Merlin-engined Lightning was going to be.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 17, 2004)

the merlin has to be the greatest engine of the war however..............


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 17, 2004)

Dont know about that, certainly greatest British Engine...


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 17, 2004)

well in terms of greatness what can even come close??


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 17, 2004)

Well some of the late war German Engines were far better (such as the one in the Ta-152) and the Allison was a pretty good engine.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 17, 2004)

> were far better



many engines were better, but in no way were they greater than the mighty merlin.............


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 17, 2004)

Explain the difference please...


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 17, 2004)

when you ask people to name a WWII plane, if they have no knowledge on the subject they will atleast know of, and therefore say, the spitfire, the fact that a person knows about the spitfire but knows nothing else on the subject makes it a true great, but it wasn't the best aircraft of the war, if you want a really simple explanation, the hurricane was a great aircraft, but on paper it was nothing special and there were countless planes that were better...........


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 17, 2004)

Ask most people to name a famous German leader and theyll say Hitler. Was he great? No he wasnt...


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 17, 2004)

in many ways he was.............


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 17, 2004)

I dont call killing millions of Jews great.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 17, 2004)

i call the ability to make an entire nation believe in themselfs again great............


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 17, 2004)

Not when they find out he's a meglomaniac thats been taking them all for fools.


----------



## wmaxt (Dec 17, 2004)

I still go P-38L as the best fighter of WWII it just didn't give up anything to anyone and was still there when the smoke cleared. 

When considering best engines the 2800 has got to be in the running they were awsome. I read that they took some and ran them at WEP power settings and overboost (into the 3.000+hp range) for more than 250hrs continous and detected no problems on teardown.

I also saw a documentary recently where a crankshaft from a bf-109 was sent to Rolls Royce for duplication - it was returned with the caution "Take care of it, we can't reproduce it".


----------



## Lightning Guy (Dec 18, 2004)

I was going to mention the R-2800 as one of the truly great engines of the war. You could put 20mm rounds directly into that engine and it would keep ticking. But of course I completely agree with Wmaxt that the P-38L was the best fighter of the war.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 18, 2004)

funny, i don't...............


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 18, 2004)

Well I do, and you're outbnumbered lanc...you wont be able to beat 3 hardcore P-38 fans...


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 18, 2004)

what makes you think i have to beat you, you're allowed to have your opinion, as am I, I don't have to change your, you sure as hell aint gonna change mine.............


----------



## cheddar cheese (Dec 18, 2004)

I didnt say you have to beat us, Im just saying you wouldnt if you tried...


----------



## DaveB.inVa (Dec 25, 2004)

A lot has been written about the Merlin and the Allison, namely that the Merlin was a much more powerful engine. When in fact it was not! The Allison and the Merlin were both closely matched in displacement and at sea level and up to about 10000' they both had very similar power levels!!

Up higher than 10000' you MUST consider the induction system. Most Allison's like the ones in the P-39, P-40 and early P-51's had just a single stage supercharger. Most Merlin's like used in later P-51's, Spitfires and Lancasters had a two speed two stage supercharger. This makes a world of difference!!!

Once the Merlin got above a certain altitude the supercharger on the Merlin would shift into high blower. This greatly increases power at altitude... not because its a Merlin... but because you have more air!

The P-38 was an exception to the Allison's mentioned above. The reason was because it has a turbocharger feeding the Allison in addition to its own engine mounted single stage supercharger. This is a more flexible system than the two speed two stage setup could be. You can regulate the amount of turbo boost much more easily than you can with a two speed two stage supercharger. Using a turbo also provides a seamless level of power from sealevel all the way up to rated altitude.

This was not so with the two speed two stage supercharger used with the Merlin. As the aircraft got to a certain altitude the low blower speed would begin to lose power. Sometime at a little higher altitiude the supercharger would shift into high blower. This was a fairly violent operation, but because it did increase the speed of the blower you will make more power because your now getting more air.

Later Allisons used a two speed two stage supercharger and these could definatley run with a two speed two stage Merlin at high altitudes!

You also have to compare apples to apples here. There were different versions of each engine. For instance most Allisons had a single stage supercharger that in the case of the P-38 was supplemented by a turbocharger. While the P-51 and most Merlins used a two speed two stage supercharger.

However there were single stage Merlins out there too for instance the P-40F had a single stage two speed Merlin producing 1300hp takeoff while the Allison engined P-40K produced at the exact same time made 1325hp takeoff.

Thats the closest comparison between the two I know of. The induction was similar and for takeoff both were making close to the same numbers.

There were later versions of the Allison equipped with two speed two stage superchargers that made 1700hp at altitude, these were used in later versions of the P-82 Twin Mustang as well as the XP-51J . In contrast the Merlins with a two speed two stage supercharger used in the P-51B/C produced 1450hp and the P-51D made 1695hp at altitude.

The Germans used a different system than the Allies that was slightly superior to the two speed two stage supercharger but not as great as using a turbocharger. On DB 601s and 605s they used a single stage vairable speed supercharger. Speed was varied by a viscous coupling. So at low altitudes they could have a high slip and as altitude increased slip would be reduced to produce higher supercharger speeds for more power. This was a seamless operation for them as well!

So Ill say it again. It was NOT the Merlin in its self that was so great. It WAS the two speed two stage supercharger that made the Merlin so great.

This is a fact, if you can give ANY engine the amount of air it requires to make its rated power and can cool it effectively you can make its rated power at any realistic altitude!

The reason the Allison wasnt able to make its rated power at 30000' was because it couldnt get enough air. The Merlin could get enough air!

If the Allison could get the same amount of air as the Merlin at 30000' then Im sure today that the Merlin would seem much less mystical... it would just be another engine.


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## wmaxt (Dec 25, 2004)

Exelent! The points you made are valid and rarly presented. 

The P-38 had a higher ceiling partly because the turbo's fed it more air. The P-51 was down to around 1,400hp at 30,000ft and it went down from there, the P-38L was still pulling 1,750hp/WEP at that same altitude. At that point the air density was a major problem in climb speed.

Does everyone notice when fighters are compared the qualification "Single Engine" is almost always added? 

The P-38 is a class of it's own!


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## Lightning Guy (Dec 25, 2004)

I believe the Allisons in the P-38 were turning out 1,725hp on WEP. 

I do find it interesting that the P-82 adopted handed engines. I believe that particular feature was unique to the P-38 among twin-engine, piston fighters of WWII. And those were a major bonus when it came to handling.


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## R Pope (Dec 26, 2004)

If I remember correctly, the "handed" engines on the Lightning were handed the wrong way! They were outward turning, rather than the superior inward rotation. This is better because of the phenomenon of thrust migration at high angle of attack. In the event of one engine failing, the thrust on an inward turning prop is closer to the centerline, resulting in better control. Possibly, the choice was influenced by the slipstream's effect on the unique tailplane of the P-38.


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## R Pope (Dec 26, 2004)

Forgot to mention that the deHaviland Hornet had "handed" engines, only they turned the right way! As for the Lightning being in a class of its own, you may be right, the Hornet was first class! The Fastest Propeller-Driven Aircraft In The World in 1945.


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## DaveB.inVa (Dec 26, 2004)

When the P-82 first was produced it was made with handed engines turning the "wrong way". The reason this was done is because it was thought that the P-82 may exhibit the same problems as the twin boom design of the P-38. However it was found that the wrong way turning props caused a stalling condition and excess drag across the wing center section between the fuselages. The engines were changed to turn the right way and it made a world of difference.

Its also interesting that the English and French ordered P-38s before the fall of France. They were specified to have right handed engines and no turbochargers. The French versions also specified French throttles (pull back for power), French armament and radios as well as French gauges. After France fell the French order was given to the English. After only 3 Lightning I's were delivered and tested it was found that without the turbos the Lightnings at high altitudes were gutless. 

The remaining part of the order along with the 3 delivered were then reclaimed by the USAAF and redesignated P-322's. Following Pearl Harbor 20 were pressed into service. They retained the right handed engines and were equipped with 2 .50 calibers and 2 .30 calibers and no 20mm cannon. The remainder of the 140 Lightnings were given the same armament but had handed engines installed with no turbo. They served in the continental US as a type of twin engine trainer/home defence force.


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## wmaxt (Dec 26, 2004)

R Pope said:


> Forgot to mention that the deHaviland Hornet had "handed" engines, only they turned the right way! As for the Lightning being in a class of its own, you may be right, the Hornet was first class! The Fastest Propeller-Driven Aircraft In The World in 1945.



My refrences give a top speed of 472mph for the hornet The P-51H is 487mph and the P-47N is 467mph the F-4U5 462 and there may be others. Top speed is only one performance catagoryand the Hornet was in fine company. 

the P-38K could also do over 472mph but it was deemed the performance increase was not worth the cost of a two weeks of lost production when compared with the performance already available.

The Hornet still could not do the range of missions the P-38 could do.


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## wmaxt (Dec 26, 2004)

R Pope said:


> If I remember correctly, the "handed" engines on the Lightning were handed the wrong way! They were outward turning, rather than the superior inward rotation. This is better because of the phenomenon of thrust migration at high angle of attack. In the event of one engine failing, the thrust on an inward turning prop is closer to the centerline, resulting in better control. Possibly, the choice was influenced by the slipstream's effect on the unique tailplane of the P-38.



The inward turning props of the first prototype were replaced by the outward rotating props because the did improve the stability. 

The P-38 is noted for having the best low speed handling of any high performance fighter and a very mild slow speed stalls with no tourque efect break or snap as is normal in single engineg fighters.

As long as proper techniques were used single engined operation was fine including single engined cruise over 230mph and a top speed in the 300mph range. If the proper procedures were not used it could be nasty.

There are reports of volentary single engine combat in P-38s.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 26, 2004)

the mossie also had no problem on one engine............


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## plan_D (Dec 26, 2004)

I was playing on Il-2 FB yesterday and lost my engine (flying a P-38) when beating the crap out of Zeros. It still flew, for all of about 2 minutes - looking outside I noticed the engine hadn't shut off. It'd COME OFF! Well, the spinner had. 

All round, the P-38L has to be one of the best if not the best. The Spit. XIV is still my favourite and was a better dogfighter.


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## wmaxt (Dec 26, 2004)

plan_D said:


> I was playing on Il-2 FB yesterday and lost my engine (flying a P-38) when beating the crap out of Zeros. It still flew, for all of about 2 minutes - looking outside I noticed the engine hadn't shut off. It'd COME OFF! Well, the spinner had.
> 
> All round, the P-38L has to be one of the best if not the best. The Spit. XIV is still my favourite and was a better dogfighter.



Actuly there a well known mock fight between a Spit XIV and a P-38 where the Spit pilot was to fight the P-38 and then lecture on the prowes of the Spit. The P-38 bounced the Spit and for the entire show remained in firing posion. The Spit tried everything it could including a shollow angle split-s the P-38 followed them all! The Spit went home instead of landing. 

Bong was reported to have dogfought the Zoro at speeds where the Zero was supposed to be better.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 27, 2004)

I believe that P-38 Pilot was none other than Ol' Hub Zemke himself......


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## Lightning Guy (Dec 27, 2004)

That may have been possible but the time frame would have been limited. Zemke's group began re-equipping with Mustangs very shortly after he took over (the process may have even been started).

At low-altitudes, the handed props on the P-38 were a major advantage over any single engined fighter. This was especially true against the late model 109s which had far too much torque for its small control surfaces to properly handle. In a tight, low-speed turn the 109 was very likely to snap into a spin as a result of the torque. Also, since the P-38 had two engines it would roll equally well in either direction as it didn't have to fight the engine torque.


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## Anonymous (Dec 27, 2004)

Just a few comments:

1) Turbochargers had a critical altitude as well, though it was typically set higher than for mechanical superchargers. The turbine could only turn so fast, I believe 29-31,000 RPM. Once it topped out, power started to fall with altitude. The P-38 stopped making WEP around 29,000 feet and the P-47 around 32,000 feet (varies some by version).

2) The fluid coupling on the Bf-109 was pretty good, but it also cost some performance. Fluid couplings always involve loss. It was probably superior to the 2-stage-2speed supercharger toward the middle of the ranges between the 4 critical altitudes of those systems, but not a lot. It did avoid the sudden "bump" from the gear changes. The Turbo-supercharger was clearly superior, which is why the German's kept trying to build one till the end of the war.

3) The top speed of the F4U-4 was left out of the plane speed list. It was 463 mph at 20,700 feet (much lower than the other fast planes) in the "clean" configuration (i.e. no capped pylons).

=S=

Lunatic


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## Lightning Guy (Dec 27, 2004)

The GE B-33 turbos used on the P-38 redlined at 26,400 rpms.


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## wmaxt (Dec 27, 2004)

RG_Lunatic said:


> Just a few comments:
> 
> 1) Turbochargers had a critical altitude as well, though it was typically set higher than for mechanical superchargers. The turbine could only turn so fast, I believe 29-31,000 RPM. Once it topped out, power started to fall with altitude. The P-38 stopped making WEP around 29,000 feet and the P-47 around 32,000 feet (varies some by version).
> 
> ...



The F-4U4s top speed was 443mph due to the fabric wings - they would ripple causing drag. The -5 with metal wings could do 462/463 depending on rererence being used.

I did miss read the top speed of the P-38k it should have been 432mph in METO and was expected to max out over 450mph.


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## Anonymous (Dec 27, 2004)

wmaxt said:


> The F-4U4s top speed was 443mph due to the fabric wings - they would ripple causing drag. The -5 with metal wings could do 462/463 depending on rererence being used.
> 
> I did miss read the top speed of the P-38k it should have been 432mph in METO and was expected to max out over 450mph.



The P-38K was never produced, it was deemed not worth the loss of 2 weeks of P-38L production to switch over to the paddle props.

The F4U-4 top speed was about 443 mph, but it was due to the drag from the capped pylons, not the fabric covering on the wings (which were good to 550 mph in a dive).

See the pilot handbook excerpts: http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/f4u-4.pdf

Note on the last page of this declassified document it gives the speed w/o capped pylons as 403 knots = 463.76 mph @ 20,600 feet. It should also be noted that these results are "expected performance", not special case test performance. I.e. four planes went up to perform the tests, and the lowest performance (without malfunctions) was used. This data represents what the pilot was to expect from his plane in combat, it was never meant for public consumption (but for the FIA it would probably still be "classified").

The switch to all metal wings was not for performance. There were two problems with the fabric coverings:

1) they required constant maintainence - they needed to be checked (and tightened if needed) after every sortie and they had to be replaced frequently.

2) the fire-retardant they were soaked in was a significant health hazard to the plane crews which handeled them.

Virtually all F4U's now flying have metal wings. The expense of the fabric forces this retrofit for privately owned flying planes. The use of the fabric was never to save on aluminum, it was to increase the survivability and performance of the plane.

=S=

Lunatic


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## wmaxt (Dec 27, 2004)

RG_Lunatic said:


> wmaxt said:
> 
> 
> > The F-4U4s top speed was 443mph due to the fabric wings - they would ripple causing drag. The -5 with metal wings could do 462/463 depending on rererence being used.
> ...



I know the K was never produced.

Acknowledging the references are wrong at times I do see the 403kts. How did you convert the speed - I get 458mph (nit Picking) either way it's still compettitive with the post war Hornet which was the comparison.


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## Anonymous (Dec 27, 2004)

Go to Google and type in "403 knots = ? mph".

Note, this converter/calculator is really quite good, you can convert almost any measurments or solve most math equations with it.

=S=

Lunatic

PS: It is too bad the P-38K was not produced, it would have been one hell of an E fighter. Top speed was still somewhat limited because of the wing design and drag characteristics, but climb performance and acceleration... wow!


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## plan_D (Dec 27, 2004)

From one mock combat situation where a Spitfire was bounced, you make out as if the Lightning was a better dogfighter? If any aircraft is bounced, it's in trouble. 

More people believe the Spit. Mk. XIV to be the best dogfighter of the war than otherwise. I'm sure a Spit. could hang on the back of a Lightning with ease. The only things I can think of that have been stated in the past that were nearing matches were the Fw-190D-9 and, possibly, the Ta-152. The Spitfire just ran rings around the Zero.


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## Anonymous (Dec 27, 2004)

plan_D said:


> From one mock combat situation where a Spitfire was bounced, you make out as if the Lightning was a better dogfighter? If any aircraft is bounced, it's in trouble.
> 
> More people believe the Spit. Mk. XIV to be the best dogfighter of the war than otherwise. I'm sure a Spit. could hang on the back of a Lightning with ease. The only things I can think of that have been stated in the past that were nearing matches were the Fw-190D-9 and, possibly, the Ta-152. The Spitfire just ran rings around the Zero.



Actually the account as I heard it was the two planes sized one another up and then entered a mutual dogfight, there was no "bouncing" involved. After two or 3 turns the P-38L got on the Spitfire's six and the Spit could not shake it. After a few minutes, the P-38 almost ate dirt following the Spitfire and the two pilots decided to break off the engagement.

The Spitfire could not hang on the six of the P-38L with ease. The P-38L was a very good low speed combat plane. If you got down near stall fighting it, you were in serious trouble. It's very good stall characteristics, and outstanding low speed acceleration and climb gave it a very big edge. Even if the enemy plane could technically out turn it, the P-38 could do a low speed hi-yoyo and stall right onto it's six, cutting the corner on the turn.

Spitfires in Singapor got eaten alive by Zero's in 1941/42.

=S=

Lunatic


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## plan_D (Dec 27, 2004)

Only at stall speed the Lightning could get on the Spitfire then. In other words, at every other engagement the Spitfire is at the advantage. 

The Spitfires in Singapore gotten eaten alive by the Zeros? How is that so? The RAF in the Pacific didn't get Spitfires until 1943, when they started getting Spitfire Mk. VIII and Mk. Vs. In November 1943 the first two Spitfire squadrons arrived to the 3rd TAF (607 and 615) and then receiving another 2 squadrons in Feb. 1944 supplementing the Nine Hurricane squadrons already out there. 
The air superiority was gained by the Mk. Vs and few Mk. VIIIs in the three forward squadrons while the Hurricanes covered the airfields as they re-armed and re-fueled. For every Allied loss, eight Japanese planes were shot down all because of the sharp defeats the Japs suffered at teh hands of the Spits.


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## Anonymous (Dec 27, 2004)

plan_D said:


> Only at stall speed the Lightning could get on the Spitfire then. In other words, at every other engagement the Spitfire is at the advantage.
> 
> The Spitfires in Singapore gotten eaten alive by the Zeros? How is that so? The RAF in the Pacific didn't get Spitfires until 1943, when they started getting Spitfire Mk. VIII and Mk. Vs. In November 1943 the first two Spitfire squadrons arrived to the 3rd TAF (607 and 615) and then receiving another 2 squadrons in Feb. 1944 supplementing the Nine Hurricane squadrons already out there.
> The air superiority was gained by the Mk. Vs and few Mk. VIIIs in the three forward squadrons while the Hurricanes covered the airfields as they re-armed and re-fueled. For every Allied loss, eight Japanese planes were shot down all because of the sharp defeats the Japs suffered at teh hands of the Spits.



I'll have to look up where the engagement was. I thought it was singapore but perhaps not. I might have confused Hurc's with spits too.

No I didn't say the Spitfire would easily win at any other speed, just that if it got into a serious turnfight and speeds were allowed to drop down near stall, the P-38 had a huge advantage.

At higher speeds, each plane had advantages and disadvantages. The P-38L far out-rolled the Spitfire at high speeds, so it would be very hard for the Spitfire to successfully engage a P-38L at very high speeds. At very high speeds, roll is more important than turn, since both plane's turning performance are going to be limited by pilot G tolerance, not what the plane can actually do.

At 250 IAS, the Spitfire would probably have the edge, but it wouldn't be huge and pilot skill would probably determine the victor. Both were excellent planes.

=S=

Lunatic


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## plan_D (Dec 27, 2004)

Are we mentioning clip-winged Spitfires too which had better peformance at lower altitudes than normal Spits?


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## Anonymous (Dec 27, 2004)

Ahh but the clipped wing spitfires did not turn nearly so well as the full winged Spitfires. And even so, by 300 IAS the P-38L rolled better, and at even before that the ease of rolling it was making a difference. The P-38L (and some late model J's) were the only fighters of WWII to have power ailerons - it took only one hand to do a full speed roll at any speed. To get full roll performance out of the Sptifire required 50 lbs of stick force, that means both hands and putting your back into it.

=S=

Lunatic


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## DaveB.inVa (Dec 27, 2004)

RG_Lunatic said:


> Just a few comments:
> 
> 1) Turbochargers had a critical altitude as well, though it was typically set higher than for mechanical superchargers. The turbine could only turn so fast, I believe 29-31,000 RPM. Once it topped out, power started to fall with altitude. The P-38 stopped making WEP around 29,000 feet and the P-47 around 32,000 feet (varies some by version).
> 
> ...



You are correct that the turbos limiting factor was turbine speed. All turbo systems used on US aircraft were the same from what Ive read being that they were Minneapolis-Honeywell units. I only know about the later electronic versions though, not about the earlier mechanical versions found on B-17's and B-24's. I also am not familiar with those of the P-38 aside from the fact that they were MH units, so operation should be fairly similar as far as regulation and governors.

In B-17's, B-24's and B-29's there was a Turbo Boost Selector with 10 positions. Number 8 gave takeoff power, to turn past that to 9 and 10 there was a cam that had to be moved on the control to access these settings. 9 and 10 was War-Emergency Power settings and could not be used for more than 5 minutes. However I have read of certain instances where they have been used much longer. I know of one where a B-17 ran 3 engines on WEP for over an hour and another where a B-29 ran 2 engines on WEP for about 3 hrs!! 

At this #10 WE setting the wastegate at the end of the turbo was completly closed allowing all exhaust to be diverted through the exhaust turbine. 

The turbo control on B-17s and B-24s used four trimming potentiometers that could be adjusted. The B-29 (and B-36 for that matter) had the same setup but 8 trimpots as each engine had 2 turbos. More on the B-36 in a minute.

Each turbo was controled by a Waste Gate Motor, a Pressuretrol, a Governor, an Amplifier for each engine and the Turbo Control mentioned above.

The Waste gate motor controlled the open/close of the exhaust waste gate, which in effect, caused the exhaust driven turbine to spin..the more the waste gate was closed...the more the exhaust was diverted through the turbine and the faster the exhaust turbine spun. The intake impeller was directly connected to the exhaust turbine and the faster this spun the more air was fed into the intake and raised manifold pressure.

The governor monitored shaft speed and kept the turbo from overspeeding. This was the final limiting factor for the turbo performance and could come into play at anytime. The pressuretrol was also part of the governor system in that as altitude increases, density of air decreases. With this decreased density the turbine has less resistance and can overspeed. So above 27000 feet the pressuretrol reduced manifold pressure by 1"Hg for every 1000 feet gained. This number is from an early unit however and as the war progressed better materials and design allowed higher altitudes to be reached while maintaining the same level of power. All this translates into is that the turbines were allowed to spin faster. 

Most times as well these high setting wouldnt be used and the turbines really didnt have go turn so fast. Especially with bombers, they would go over target at a fairly slow speed compared to their maximum speed. One B-17 flight engineer/top turret gunner I know states that on bombing missions their cruise speed was set somewhere around 155~160 mph by the flight leader. B-29's were faster cruising around 220mph all the way to Japan and back. 

Fighters like the P-38 and P-47 I would say would definatly be much harder on their turbos as during dogfighting there would be a much greater tendancy to use WEP as well as constantly varying throttle positions. This could be another reason to use lower turbine speeds with the fighters.

In all turbos were clearly superior in response and flexibility and as better design and materials were used even better performance could be achieved.

Anyway I said I was going to mention some stuff on the B-36 turbo system. This was a different setup as above 40000 feet one turbo would be shut off and the engine would run on a single turbo. This was done because at the very high altitudes the B-36 could reach exhaust flow and power became so low that the turbos fell below their efficiency range and harsh pulsations of power would result. Shutting off one turbo and redirecting all exhaust flow through one turbo would raise the turbine speed, improve efficiency and eliminate surging. Also the B-36 with the R-4360 engine didn't have a War-Emergency setting and also only had a Turbo Boost Selector with 7 positions. Takeoff power was max power and was obtained at #7! Some later B-36's had water injection, not for use in a combat setting, but to provide extra power for takeoff.


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## wmaxt (Dec 27, 2004)

RG_Lunatic said:


> plan_D said:
> 
> 
> > From one mock combat situation where a Spitfire was bounced, you make out as if the Lightning was a better dogfighter? If any aircraft is bounced, it's in trouble.
> ...



 After checking the account I read you are correct.


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## plan_D (Dec 27, 2004)

It could still roll faster, the adrenaline in a man is going to push him to physical limits to make his plane roll in extreme circumstances. If a Spitfire can roll well with a Fw-190 (although not as quick) then it's going to roll with a Lightning better. 

The Lightning is also going to have to use his flaps to turn inside the Spitfire. If we're getting into a clean-cut turning-fight the Mk. IX might serve a little better...but you should know, no fight was clean cut...


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## wmaxt (Dec 27, 2004)

plan_D said:


> It could still roll faster, the adrenaline in a man is going to push him to physical limits to make his plane roll in extreme circumstances. If a Spitfire can roll well with a Fw-190 (although not as quick) then it's going to roll with a Lightning better.
> 
> The Lightning is also going to have to use his flaps to turn inside the Spitfire. If we're getting into a clean-cut turning-fight the Mk. IX might serve a little better...but you should know, no fight was clean cut...



The P-38 also had differential throttle which could be quite effective. The P-38 was capable of ACM with any other fighter at any speed. In some of these situations pilot experiance could make all the difference.

Above 300/350mph and above the P-38 could roll faster. The power controls added to continued effectivness made a substantial difference.

Yes they used everything they had!!


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## plan_D (Dec 27, 2004)

50 mph is a big difference...  

Unless bounced the Spitfire is going to be rolling off the Lightning because combat often dropped below 300, even at high altitude. This would depend on the pilot but the Spitfire is going to feel advantages at every level. And many people claim the Spit was the best dogfighter, that wouldn't appear for no reason.


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## wmaxt (Dec 27, 2004)

plan_D said:


> 50 mph is a big difference...
> 
> Unless bounced the Spitfire is going to be rolling off the Lightning because combat often dropped below 300, even at high altitude. This would depend on the pilot but the Spitfire is going to feel advantages at every level. And many people claim the Spit was the best dogfighter, that wouldn't appear for no reason.





As LG pointed out turning becomes more inportant below 300mph also acceleration which are both strong suites of the P-38. As shown before the Spitfire XIV couldn't shake the P-38 or even keep it off it's tail doesn't that define the difference?


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## Anonymous (Dec 27, 2004)

plan_D said:


> It could still roll faster, the adrenaline in a man is going to push him to physical limits to make his plane roll in extreme circumstances. If a Spitfire can roll well with a Fw-190 (although not as quick) then it's going to roll with a Lightning better.
> 
> The Lightning is also going to have to use his flaps to turn inside the Spitfire. If we're getting into a clean-cut turning-fight the Mk. IX might serve a little better...but you should know, no fight was clean cut...



Generally speaking, the P-38L is considered the fastest rolling plane of WWII at high speeds. Both the Spitfire and the FW190 rolled very well lower speeds, but it dropped of very fast after it peaked (about 200 IAS for the Spit, 255 IAS for the FW).












To understand the charts you will have to keep in mind the first chart is in IAS, the second is in TAS. Given the FW info, it can be seen that the P-38L surpasses the FW in RoR at about 300 IAS, and the Spitfire well before that speed. Also, because of the very sharp change in rate of roll after the peak, the pilot's ability to utilize roll for precise combat manuvers in either the Spitfire or the FW is somewhat limited. In a dive, to do a precise roll and turn (like in rolling scissors), the pilot would have to calculate for the airspeed to know how long to stick over, but of course this is changing as he's doing the calculation...

Adrenaline is not going to prevent fatigue. Fatigue is always an issue when engaging in combat. The harder it is to do the things you need to do, the less well you will do them. And flying is a complicated thing, there are lots of things to do. Clearly if both your hands are on the stick to roll, you cannot also be cutting throttle back, let alone adjusting pitch or caging and uncaging gyros for your computing sights.

The P-38's flowler flaps are much better suited to combat manuvering than the hinge flaps on the Spitfire. But as I said, this is not how the P-38 would turn inside the Spitfire (though they might also be used). Instead, the P-38 would pull its nose up, slowing it down, and then roll slightly and stall over to get inside the track of the Spitfire, then use its huge acceleration advantage to make up the energy. At very low speeds the very good stall characteristics of the P-38 vs the rather poor stall characteristics of the Spitfire were an advantage.

Again I point out that mock dogfights generally degenerate into very slow turn fights. All WWII planes were "underpowered" by modern aerobatic standards. Once the hard deck is approached (or the ground), these kind of fights become rather meaningless and the stall characteristics are what determine who can stick on who's six. What is significant about the Spit 14 vs. P-38L mock dogfight is that the P-38 got into a firing position first (not counting the H2H at the start). The P-38L pilot was new to the L model (it had just been delivered), the Spitfire XIV pilot... we don't know anything about him... he flew away and never said a thing. If the event hadn't been witnessed by dozens of people on the ground, it would probably not have been believed.

=S=

Lunatic


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## plan_D (Dec 28, 2004)

I can't even see the P-38 on the first chart. 

Yes, flying is a difficult thing and it also takes a lot of thought. Where the P-38 turning inside the Spitfire takes a lot of thought, and a somewhat experienced pilot. Having to bank up, turn and reduce to stall on the inside of the Spitfire is not something a rookie would like doing. Where the Spitfire is turning on the inside of almost all aircraft of the war, with simple turning. 

If we're looking at one on one combat it would rely on pilot skill but you look at the bigger picture, in combat stalling is a dangerous thing to do.


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## Anonymous (Dec 28, 2004)

plan_D said:


> I can't even see the P-38 on the first chart.
> 
> Yes, flying is a difficult thing and it also takes a lot of thought. Where the P-38 turning inside the Spitfire takes a lot of thought, and a somewhat experienced pilot. Having to bank up, turn and reduce to stall on the inside of the Spitfire is not something a rookie would like doing. Where the Spitfire is turning on the inside of almost all aircraft of the war, with simple turning.
> 
> If we're looking at one on one combat it would rely on pilot skill but you look at the bigger picture, in combat stalling is a dangerous thing to do.



The P-38 is not on the top chart, the Spitfire is not on the bottom chart. The FW is on both charts. Thus I provided both charts so you could reasonably compare the P-38L to the Spitfire.

BTW: the Spitfire XIV was hardly the best turning Spitfire. It was much heavier than earlier versions and sacrificed manuverability for speed and climb rate.

The Spit V was probably the best turning spitfire, but it was of course badly outclassed by the FW190-A4 which outturned it at combat speeds and generally outperformed it. The Spitfire IX evened the playing field, and the German focus moved from dogfighters to bomber killers.

The high YoYo is a very standard combat manuver, even a rookie would have been trained in it, and any vetran worth his wings would know how to work such a manuver, especially USA pilots who were trained to utilize energy tactics. Flying near stall is of course dangerous, but the point I'm making is that it was very much easier to do in the P-38L than the Spitfire XIV. The Spitfire had a higher stall speed and its behaivor in a stall was much more violent and unpredictable. The P-38 was actually an easy plane to fly through a stall, it was extremely predictable and controllable.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Maestro (Dec 28, 2004)

WHAT ?!  

The Spitfire Mk. V a better turning Spitfire than the Mk. IX ? Hey, talk to any veteran who flew both Mk. V and Mk. IX, they'll all say that the Mk. IX was the BEST Merlin engined Spitfire. No wonder why the Mk. IX was used until the end of the British decolonistion wars, while the Mk. V was not.


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## Erich (Dec 28, 2004)

hey I'll still take the Ta 152H-1 over your Allied a/c anyday of the week............... 8)


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## plan_D (Dec 28, 2004)

I did mention the Spit. Mk. IX earlier on, in a turning fight. The Spitfire is much more unpredictable in a stall, that's why you don't stall it.  

The Spitfire would be turning sweetly inside most aircraft without having to stall, that's what I'm saying. 

A lot of people still say the Mk. VIII was the best Merlin-engined Spitfire. The Mk. IX was a stop-gap, the Mk. VIII was the definitive model.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 28, 2004)

I've sometimes wondered why the Mk.VIII was never really used by the RAF during the war.


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## plan_D (Dec 28, 2004)

It just kept getting delayed by the common practice of the British higher-ups to fail to take their fingers out of their arses and get it into full production. Instead they just kept ordering IXs and then getting on with the days meeting about what kind of coffee to drink. 

The Mk. VIIIs that were built went to Burma and Italy in 1943, most were E-wings.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 28, 2004)

The Aussies wound up with most of them, didn't they?


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## Maestro (Dec 29, 2004)

Most of the pilots who flew both the Mk. VIII and Mk. IX prefered the Mk. IX. And may be the RAF didn't put the Mk. VIII in full production because the Mk. IX was cheaper to produce and had approximately the same performances... or may be a little better.

But I'm sure Plan_D will argue that, he loves the Mk. VIII. And the Mk. IX is _my_ favorite aircraft. So we could debate about that for ever...


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## lesofprimus (Dec 29, 2004)

And while u two are argueing over it, Heinz Bar in his Fw-190D-9 comes down outta the sun and smokes both ur asses.....


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## plan_D (Dec 29, 2004)

I'd much rather be in a Mk. VIII, would you really care about how much it costs to make if you're flying the thing? 

Then a high-altitude Mk. VI comes zooming down and smokes the -190D-9. It's a terrible story of death...


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## evangilder (Dec 29, 2004)

And Med zooms in and smokes a Marlboro!


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## Maestro (Dec 29, 2004)

No, I don't really care how much it cost. But RAF did. And don't forget that most pilots who flew in both Mk. VIII and Mk. IX preferred the Mk. IX. So it had to be better, eh ?

I would rather be in a Mk. IX to dogfight a Bf-109 or a FW 190.


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## plan_D (Dec 29, 2004)

You put a Mk. IX and VIII, the VIII is going to win. It was the proper model, and it had a better engine. You only reason the Mk. IX got built in such large number is because it was just a converted V airframe, which they had loads of. 

And most VIII had e-wings, I'd rather had two 20s and two .50cals than four .30s and two 20s.


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## Maestro (Dec 29, 2004)

Some Mk. IX had E wings too, mate. Although they were rare.


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## plan_D (Dec 29, 2004)

Exactly, they were rare. No rarity on the VIII though. This COULD go on forever...


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## Maestro (Dec 29, 2004)

Wait a minute, I have a document here. It says that the earlyer Mk. IX models were fited with C wings while the last _half_ of the production was fited with E wings. So they were not that rare.

Once again, I am right !


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## plan_D (Dec 29, 2004)

Only half? ONLY HALF!?! Most VIII were fitted as e-wings. You remember, the IX was only stop-gap - it was an accident baby...the VIII was PLANNED! Your Mk. IX was the result of back seat grope fest and broken profalactic (quote Family Guy)


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## Maestro (Dec 29, 2004)

Who cares if it was an accident ?

The Mk. IX got the job done against the FW 190, for wich it was designed to counter first. They made the Mk. IX with an old Mk. V airframe because the Mk. VIII airframe taken too much time to build. And what did this new airframe changed ? _Almost nothing_ !

You sounds like if the result af an "accident" wich turned up to be better than what was planned was a dishonnor. If your girlfriend was pregnant and that when she give birth, you realise that there is a second child (two for the price of one), would you disinherit one of them only because he/she was not _planned_ ?

It's a rotten analogy, but a logical one. Yes the Mk. IX was an "accident" but it got the job done, and may be better than the Mk. VIII.


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## plan_D (Dec 29, 2004)

The VIII was a better handler than the IX. It did change flight characteristics...

...and if my girlfriend got pregnant, and the child was a genius...it'd be my favourite accident..but still an accident.


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## Maestro (Dec 29, 2004)

May be. But in this case why would so much WW II veterans preferred the Mk. IX to the Mk. VIII ? (I speak for those one who flew both planes.)

And why did the Mk. IX was used until the _end_ of the British décolonisation wars while the Mk. VIII was not ?

Come on, Plan_D ! Admit it, the Mk. IX was better than the Mk. VIII.


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## plan_D (Dec 29, 2004)

They would like the Mk. IX better because of their memories with it. If they flew a Mk. VIII then they would have been in Burma while flying it, most likely. That's not a good experience. And not ALL liked the Mk. IX better. 

The VIII was the definitive Merlin-engined Spitfire. It wasn't built that much because the Mk. IX was already using old V airframes. There were more to use...

I refuse...not never ever...will I bow down to your blasphemy...

The Mk. XIV was better than both of them...


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## Anonymous (Dec 29, 2004)

Maestro said:


> WHAT ?!
> 
> The Spitfire Mk. V a better turning Spitfire than the Mk. IX ? Hey, talk to any veteran who flew both Mk. V and Mk. IX, they'll all say that the Mk. IX was the BEST Merlin engined Spitfire. No wonder why the Mk. IX was used until the end of the British decolonistion wars, while the Mk. V was not.



The Spitfire IX was faster, but it also weighed 1000 lbs more, so it did not turn as well. There are more factors involved in a pilots choice of "best" than just turn rate. The Spitfire XIV weighed yet another 1000 lbs more, reducing it's turn rate even further.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Anonymous (Dec 29, 2004)

DaveB.inVa said:


> You are correct that the turbos limiting factor was turbine speed. All turbo systems used on US aircraft were the same from what Ive read being that they were Minneapolis-Honeywell units. I only know about the later electronic versions though, not about the earlier mechanical versions found on B-17's and B-24's. I also am not familiar with those of the P-38 aside from the fact that they were MH units, so operation should be fairly similar as far as regulation and governors.



Hmm... I've always read they were GE units. At least in the fighters.

http://rwebs.net/avhistory/opsman/geturbo/geturbo.htm

=S=

Lunatic


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## plan_D (Dec 29, 2004)

What a silly way of putting it. It's almost like you're saying, the heavier the less it turns...that'd mean the P-38 sucked at turning, but it didn't...


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 29, 2004)

I dont know what I consider to be the best Spit. Ive never really spent a lot of time researching them. Ill do to dig in to it and come up with my preference.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 29, 2004)

i like the manouverability of the earlier marks but i think i might just go for the power of the later marks...........


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## Maestro (Dec 29, 2004)

plan_D said:


> They would like the Mk. IX better because of their memories with it. If they flew a Mk. VIII then they would have been in Burma while flying it, most likely. That's not a good experience. And not ALL liked the Mk. IX better.
> 
> The VIII was the definitive Merlin-engined Spitfire. It wasn't built that much because the Mk. IX was already using old V airframes. There were more to use...
> 
> ...



Of course, they did not ALL liked the Mk. IX better, but most of them did.

And you're talking like if all of the Mk. VIII were sent to Burma. A lot of them were but not _all_ of them. There was some Mk. VIII in Europe and in Africa like there was some Mk. IX in Asia and in Africa. So a pilot could have flown both of them in Europe or both of them in Asia as well as he could have flown one in Europe and the other in Asia.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 29, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> i like the manouverability of the earlier marks but i think i might just go for the power of the later marks...........



And the looks 8)


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## plan_D (Dec 30, 2004)

I didn't say ALL. They were sent to Italy and Burma...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 30, 2004)

not sure about the looks of the Mk.XXII, tail's to big..............


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## Lightning Guy (Dec 30, 2004)

Every mark of the Spit looked good. It can be argued that the Spit was the prettiest aircraft of all time.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 30, 2004)

Not with me...


I prefer the '109, "Friedrich."


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## plan_D (Dec 31, 2004)

And the Mk. VIII got 8:1 kill ratio over the Japs in Burma...pure and simple beat down.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 31, 2004)

not sure i'd say it was the best looking, the SR-71 wasn't to bad..............


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## (G/C) Lionel Mandrake (Dec 31, 2004)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> Not with me...
> 
> 
> I prefer the '109, "Friedrich."


I quite liked the 109 too.....In my gunsight!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 1, 2005)




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## Lightning Guy (Jan 1, 2005)

The 109 was a classic fighter, but the DB engines always seemed to ruin the lines.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 2, 2005)

but the merlin in the spit, what a great looking combination...........


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## Yeomanz (Jan 2, 2005)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> Not with me...
> 
> 
> I prefer the '109, "Friedrich."



that one is nice but the arming isn't verry good , I like 109 G2


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## DaveB.inVa (Jan 2, 2005)

RG_Lunatic, Thanks for the PM, I did miss that. Anyway you are correct the turbochargers in themselves were GE units. However the electronic control portions of the turbos (regulators, pressuretrol, Turbo Boost Selector and their associated electronics) were Minneapolis Honeywell units. My post did make it sound like everything was MH though, I apologize for that. I should have made a note that the turbochargers were General Electric.

Heres a link to a story mentioning a B-17G running on WE power for a few hours. It also mentions that their controls were MH units. http://www.huntress.com/high.htm Earlier B-17's (F and back) had manual turbo controls. Instead of having a single knob to turn with the electronic units these had 4 handles below the throttle quadrant. Each handle controlled each engines individual turbo through mechanical linkages. With this it was a lot harder to get the engines synchronized as you had to not only jockey the throttles but you had to jockey the turbo controls around too!

I have a friend back in Tennessee who I met on the B-29 yahoo group. He lives in the same town where I went to college so I emailed him saying I was going to school there and that I'd like to come talk about the B-29 for a while. I went to see him after my finals and stayed for about 4 hours. He was a ground crewman/weather specalist for a weather squadron on Guam during the Korean War. He does have a lot of flight time though. I got to hear a lot of interesting storys that day. One was about a B-29 that during takeoff, just didn't sound right! He said he heard it and turned around to see what was going on. The B-29 was climbing and was at full power. The crew was trying everything to slow it down. He said they had the bombbay doors open and came over the base at over 300 mph. The pilot tried to shoot a landing and came in near 300. He hit the runway hard tearing up the bombbay doors and skidding the tires for a good length of the runway. The B-29 then took back off, basically it was a skidmark touch and go!! Finally on the next go around the crew cut the two outboard engines on approach and when touchdown occured they cut the two inboard engines. The B-29 was still going very fast and the pilots were no doubt pretty scared. They stood on the brakes and skidded down the runway in a cloud of smoke. The four main tires blew but the B-29 finally stopped and that particular runway was closed the rest of the day!

An investigation was done as to what caused this. It turned out that the Minneapolis Honeywell control unit malfunctioned and snapped the wastegates totally shut. This produced over 70"Hg and sent the R-3350s into the highest war emergency setting!


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 2, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> but the merlin in the spit, what a great looking combination...........




Actually, I prefer the Daimler engine in the Spitfire...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 2, 2005)

Yeomanz said:


> GermansRGeniuses said:
> 
> 
> > Not with me...
> ...




They actually have the same, unless you attach underwing cannons to the Gustav...



The Gustav-2 may be faster (not by much) than the Friedrich-4, but the latter handles much better...


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## evangilder (Jan 2, 2005)

Cool pic, GRG. Spitfire with a Daimler Benz, who would've thunk it?!


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 2, 2005)

Isn't that a form of sacrilege?


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## Yeomanz (Jan 2, 2005)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> Yeomanz said:
> 
> 
> > GermansRGeniuses said:
> ...



well to my knoledge the F4 has 1 12.7mm canon in the nose , and two 7.7mm in the upper foward fusalage and the G-2 has a 20mm canon in the nose and either two 7.7's or 12.7's in the upper fusalage ....


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 2, 2005)

Nope, the F-2 has a 15mm in the nose and two 7.92mm machine guns above the engine, but the F-4 and G-2 both have a 20mm cannon in the nose and two synchronized 7.92mm machine guns above the engine...


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 2, 2005)

Weren't post-war 109s fitted with RR engines? Those never looked right to me.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 3, 2005)

Nah, those were licence-built Hispano Ha-112, "Buchons," made in Spanien...


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## plan_D (Jan 3, 2005)

And Pre-War -109 prototypes were fitted with RR Kestrels.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 3, 2005)

Didn't the Ju-87 V-0 and V-1 have that engine since the Jumo had problems?


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## plan_D (Jan 3, 2005)

I don't know about that one, RR engines were sluts of the aviation world they got around a bit. So it's possible.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 3, 2005)

Just checked, they did indeed...


I always found the V-1 interesting, if only so for its engine and twin-tail...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 3, 2005)

Better photo...







8)


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## plan_D (Jan 3, 2005)

I've seen that picture before, I just didn't know anything about it.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 3, 2005)

Why was the twin tail ditched? Surely it would have increased stability?


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 3, 2005)

I'm not sure it would. The single tail probably offered a greater surface area. It's interesting to note that some of the last versions of the B-24, the PB4Y2 and the B-24N featured a single tail in place of the twin fins of the earlier models.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 3, 2005)

I thought that the width of the twin tail would make it more stable. Avation obviously different to motoring in that respect then.


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## Yeomanz (Jan 3, 2005)

planes fly cars dont


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 3, 2005)

Unless youre driving a Lamborghini Miura, which was so unaerodynamic it began to take off at 80mph...seriously


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## Medvedya (Jan 3, 2005)

Yeomanz said:


> planes fly cars dont



What about the Hafner Rotabuggy then eh? eh? eh?


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## plan_D (Jan 4, 2005)

Those late B-24s weren't Liberators were they? They were called Privateers?


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 4, 2005)

No, Privateers were totally (not by much) aircraft, kinda like Wellingtons and Warwicks...


Fairly similar but acutally different planes.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 4, 2005)

Whats a Warwick?


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 4, 2005)

Basically, a bigger version of the Wellington. I don't think many were used.
Could be wrong, I'll have to look it up.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 4, 2005)

There we go. I think it was a transport rather than a bomber.


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## DaveB.inVa (Jan 4, 2005)

plan_D said:


> Those late B-24s weren't Liberators were they? They were called Privateers?



Some B-24's late in the war were produced with a single tail. These were the B-24N variants. They were derived from experiments with the XB-24K which was a B-24D with its tail replaced by the empennage from a B-23 Dragon. The handling and directional stablity of the B-24 was found to be much better with the single tail. 5000 B-24N's were ordered, this time based on the B-24J, however VJ day came and the project was cancelled with only 1 XB-24N and 7 YB-24N's being completed.

The PB4Y-2 Privateer was a slightly different animal. It was a navalized Liberator with quite a few modifications. In addition to the giant single tail it also incorporated a lengthened fuselage to accomodate a flight engineer, an Erco bow (nose) and side blister turrets, two Martin dorsal turrets and retained the Consolidated tail turret. There was no ball turret on the PB4Y-2 as the two side blister turrets could be depressed so far that their points of fire would converge 20' below the aircraft. The engines had their turbochargers deleted to save weight and the props were different than the Liberator. Both were necessatated because the Privateer flew at lower altitudes where turbocharging and paddle blade propellers werent needed.

There was also the PB4Y-1 Liberator used by the navy. This was basically a B-24J with sailors flying it though. Some PB4Y-1's did incorporate an Erco bow turret however.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 4, 2005)

Ah, thanks for clearing that up, I never really knew about the Privateer 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 4, 2005)

wow nice siggy CC.................


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 4, 2005)

The Privater was a very interesting aircraft. For all of its modifications it was still, essentially a B-24. The point about the single tail remains valid.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 4, 2005)

Anyone got some stats on it 8)


Thanks lanc, aint bad is it?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 4, 2005)

Here is some info that I found on it.



> The PB4Y-2 Privateer was designed for a 1943 U.S. Navy contract to develop a naval variation of the B-24 Liberator. It was distinguished from the B-24 by having a new tail unit (with a tall single tail fin and rudder), a lengthened forward fuselage, changes in armament (two Martin dorsal turrets, an Erco nose ball turret and Erco two-gun 'teardrop' blisters on each side of the fuselage), and different engines (which had round instead of oval cowlings). The Privateer survived long after WWII, seeing service in the Korea. A few examples still remain in use today as fire-fighting bombers.
> 
> Consolidated PB4Y-2 Privateer
> 
> ...


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 4, 2005)

Thats a fair ol' range and not a bad payload either...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 4, 2005)

Yeah I think it was pretty neat. I know I posted earlier that I had never heard about the Privateer but now I remember it from several of my books. It just did not occur to me.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 4, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> There we go. I think it was a transport rather than a bomber.




Nope, it supplanted the Liberators as an ASW aircraft...


Plus, it had Griffons! (That just adds a level of coolness) 8)


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 4, 2005)

I dont care what anyone says though, the tail is FAR too big


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 4, 2005)

It's too skinny horizontally for its height...


For both the Warwick AND the Privateer!


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## redcoat (Jan 4, 2005)

> ="GermansRGeniuses"]*
> 
> There we go. I think it was a transport rather than a bomber.*
> 
> ...


The main use of the Warwick in WW2 was as an air-sea rescue aircraft, carring an air-dropable lifeboat.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 4, 2005)

Are SAR planes equipped with Leigh Lights?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 4, 2005)

I am not sure but they were used on ASW aircraft in the search for U-Boots at night.



> From late 1943 to the end of the war, Nos.59, 86 and 120 Squadrons at various times flew Liberators from Ballykelly in the long and tedious fight against the U-boats, ranging from the Bay of Biscay to Arctic waters off North Norway by day and also at night, using Leigh Light equipped aircraft. By the end of the war, Ballykelly-based squadrons had been responsible for sinking no fewer than twelve U-boats, sharing with other aircraft and surface ships in the destruction of several others, and damaging many more.
> http://www.home.aone.net.au/shack_one/balkela.html


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 4, 2005)

redcoat said:


> The main use of the Warwick in WW2 was as an air-sea rescue aircraft, carring an air-dropable lifeboat.



Ah-ha! _That's_ where I recognized it from!  
Thanks, redcoat!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 4, 2005)

I remember reading something about that.


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## Anonymous (Jan 4, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> Basically, a bigger version of the Wellington. I don't think many were used.
> Could be wrong, I'll have to look it up.



A very few were used, mostly for ASW and ASR operations in 1945. This was the only plane to successfully utilize the Bristol Centaraus radial engine in WWII.

=S=

Lunatic


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## evangilder (Jan 4, 2005)

Didn't they later use the Centaurus for the Hawker SeaFury?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 4, 2005)

From what I have read on the Warwick it was a pretty versatile aircraft. It did not have the best performance but was quite versatile.



> The Vickers Warwick was a transport, anti-submarine patrol and air-sea rescue aircraft of the RAF during World War II.
> 
> The Warwick was designed in response to Air Ministry specification B.1/35 for a two-engined heavy (by the standards of the day) bomber to replace the Wellington. However the prototype orders were cancelled in 1936 when it was decided to standardise on four engined bombers. Vickers-Armstrong completed two prototypes anyway, one with Rolls-Royce Vulture water-cooled engines, not persisted with because of production difficulties, and one with the air-cooled Pratt Whitney installation.
> 
> ...



And yes from the Mk. 2 and up it utilized the Centaurus Engines



> The Warwick II was equipped to carry torpedoes or bombs, and powered by 2,520hp (1,880kW) Bristol Centaurus VII engines. 132 built.
> 
> The Warwick III was a transport development. It had a pannier-like extension below the central fuselage, the normal loaded weight being raised to 45,000lb (20,400kg). No armament was carried. 100 built.
> 
> The Warwick V was an anti-submarine patrol aircraft. It was powered by Centaurus VII engines, armed with 7 machine guns and could carry 6,000lbs (2,700kg) of bombs, mines or depth-charges. It arrived too late to see active service. 210 built.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_Warwick


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 4, 2005)

Ah! Thanks for the link Adler, I was looking for that site!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 4, 2005)

evangilder said:


> Didn't they later use the Centaurus for the Hawker SeaFury?


Yes you are correct:



> Seafury F.B. Mk.11
> Crew 1
> Power plant One 2,550 h.p. Bristol Centaurus 18
> eighteen cylinder radial air-cooled engine
> ...





> The Hawker Sea Fury Carrier borne fighter-bomber was the British Fleet Air Arm's last piston-engined fighter, developed during WWII it did not see service with the Fleet Air Arm until after the war. It was arguably the fastest piston powered aircraft ever manufactured.
> It was a development from the Hawker Tempest, itself a development of the Hawker Typhoon. Originally, the Hawker Fury was designed by Sidney Camm in 1942 under F.2/43 specification, to provide the RAF with a lightweight replacement for the Tempest II.
> 
> On 23 June, 1942, Luftwaffe Pilot Oberleutnant Arnim Faber erroneously landed his Focke-Wulf Fw 190A-3 fighter at RAF Pembrey, apparently having mistaken this airfield for a Luftwaffe channel coast airfield. The British were thereby presented with a working example of the Fw 190 fighter, which had been giving the RAF an extremely difficult time. The Hawker Fury design was a direct result of the examination of Faber's Fw 190A-3. Examination of Faber's aircraft was largely responsible for the preparation of Specification F.6/42, which called for a new, high-performance fighter.
> ...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 4, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> Ah! Thanks for the link Adler, I was looking for that site!



No problem I enjoy looking stuff up. Not really anything else to do in my sparetime right now.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 4, 2005)

I always loved that ol' Hawker Sea Fury! Beautiful plane! 
I saw one perform at an air show once, and what a sight to behold!


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## Anonymous (Jan 4, 2005)

evangilder said:


> Didn't they later use the Centaurus for the Hawker SeaFury?



I believe so, but not till after the war was over. It was also in the Tempest II, which likewise didn't become operational until the war was over.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 4, 2005)

The Sea Fury was certainly in the running for best piston-engined fighter of all time. It certainly was sleek and deadly.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 4, 2005)

I agree...


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## evangilder (Jan 5, 2005)

Indeed it was a great airplane, still is. It's really big too! Thanks for the confirmation guys! We had the SeaFury out to the show this year, but ignition problems plagued him all weekend. Bummer. Here is a shot of it on a better day.

GRG, is this the one you saw? It makes the round in SoCal during the airshow season.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 5, 2005)

It is a beautiful plane and very powerful. If you read the history on it, a captured Fw-190 helped in the designing of it. It really is marvelous and if it had come out a few years earlier it would have brought havoc on the Luftwaffe. But yes it did not fly until 1946.


----------



## Anonymous (Jan 5, 2005)

It is basically a Tempest II. Several hundred of these were completed in 1944. However, problems with the Bristol Centaraus engine made them unsuitable for combat and they just sat there until the problems were resloved after the war.

http://www.hawkertempest.se/ is a great site for info on the Tempest.

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 5, 2005)

Yeah it took a while for it to get off the ground and operational but it is really a great plane. Thanks for the link.


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 5, 2005)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> the lancaster kicks ass said:
> 
> 
> > but the merlin in the spit, what a great looking combination...........
> ...





Here's another...







I discovered that the Daimler-Benz engine in it was a Db605, and the Spitfire itself was a Vb...


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 5, 2005)

Thats awesome did they put the DB605 in it because they did not have spare parts for the original engine or did they just do it to see what would happen. Do you know what it did for the performance of the Spitfire?


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 5, 2005)

Another pair!


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 5, 2005)

Do you have a performance stats on the Spit with the DB605?


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 5, 2005)

Here's the quartet of photos I've found...



















Info from here.


> P/O (Sous Lt) Bernard Scheidhauer and P/O (Sous/Lt) Henri de Bordas of 131 Sqn departed Westhampnett early on the afternoon of November 18th 1942 to undertake a Rhubarb to the Normandy peninsular.
> 
> Making land fall at St Aubin sur Mer they picked up and followed the Caen to Cherbourg railway attacking several targets along the way. During the sortie they were met by light flak and purposely avoided Carentan because of the concentration of flak in the area.
> 
> ...





> Hello to all -
> 
> Miro Nedeljak sent the following color profile of EN 830. After digging through my files, I came across the following additional information on the color scheme of this aircraft....unfortunately the sources don't agree exactly.
> 
> ...



Profile ~


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 5, 2005)

That is interesting. The Airfield at Echterdingen still exists today. It is adjacent to the Stuttgart International Airport. My father flew UH-1H Hueys out of Echterdingen Army Airfield (as the US Army calls it today) for about 8 years. Many of the bunkers and underground facilities still exist today and it is interesting to walk around the facility.


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## plan_D (Jan 5, 2005)

Had the war gone on, the British would have had many great designs. They had the Canberra flying in 1947.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 5, 2005)

For its time the Canberra was a good aircraft. Had it been in service during WW2 it could have done a lot of damage.


----------



## redcoat (Jan 5, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> For its time the Canberra was a good aircraft.


What do you mean for its time  
The Canberra is still in service with the RAF today in the Photo-Recon role.
In fact in the air war against the Talaban in Afghanistan, The RAF Canberra was the only non US aircraft in the combat zone, at the special request of the USAF. 
The Canberra's cameras are state of the art, even better than those fitted to US aircraft,
"New wine in an old bottle" is how an RAF spokesman described it


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 5, 2005)

Yes but the aircraft itself, not the onboard packages that can come with it are outclassed today. Wouldn't you say so.


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## plan_D (Jan 5, 2005)

I would say so. For many years the aircraft itself was above most the world had to offer. Even the Americans bought some.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 5, 2005)

I mean dont take me wrong it is a great aircraft and that is why it was used for so long but it is completly outclassed today.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 5, 2005)

The Americans called it the B-57, didn't they?
Yeah it's not exactly modern anymore, but it certainly was a keen aircraft in it's day. Present photo-recon aside from all this, of course.


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## evangilder (Jan 5, 2005)

Yes, Martin license built the Canberra. From the USAF museum website:
_The B-57 is a modified version of the English Electric Canberra which was first flown in Britain on May 13, 1949, and later produced for the Royal Air Force (RAF). After the Korean Conflict began in 1950, the USAF looked for a jet medium bomber to replace the aging Douglas B-26 Invader. In March 1951, the USAF contracted with the Glenn L. Martin Co. to build the Canberra in the U.S. under a licensing agreement with English Electric. The Martin-built B-57 made its first flight on July 20, 1953, and when production ended in 1959, a total of 403 Canberras had been produced for the USAF. 

The aircraft on display is one of 202 B-57Bs built by Martin. In the early 1960s it was assigned to Aeronautical Systems Division at Wright-Patterson AFB as a test aircraft. In 1965 it was selected for return to combat configuration to replace combat losses in Southeast Asia. It arrived at Clark AB, Phillipines on March 20, 1967 and was assigned to the 8th Bomb Squadron at Phan Rang, South Vietnam, from where it flew combat missions for 2 1/2 years. Then, it was brought back to the U.S., converted to an electronic countermeasures EB-57B, and assigned to the Kansas Air National Guard (ANG) and later to the Vermont ANG. The aircraft was flown to the Museum on August 20, 1981. 

SPECIFICATIONS 
Span: 64 ft. 
Length: 65 ft. 6 in. 
Height: 15 ft. 6 in. 
Weight: 58,800 lbs. max. 
Armament: None 
Engines: Two Wright J65-W-5s or two Buick J65-BW-5s of 7,220 lbs. thrust each 
Crew: Pilot and electronic warfare officer 
Cost: $1,264,000 

PERFORMANCE 
Maximum speed: 570 mph. 
Cruising speed: 450 mph. 
Range: 2,000 miles 
Service Ceiling: 49,000 ft. 
_


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 5, 2005)

Ah, nice. Thanks evan.


----------



## evangilder (Jan 5, 2005)

Here is a pic


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 5, 2005)

Thanks for that too.


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## evangilder (Jan 5, 2005)

No problem. I liked the look of the Canberra.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 5, 2005)

it was cirtainly one of the most influential post war bombers..............


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 5, 2005)

Didn't it inspire the North American B-45 Tornado? I always liked that plane, but I never got why they went from bubble canopies to "Birdcages" on the later models...


----------



## The Jug Rules! (Jan 5, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> the whole look of the hurricane was better - im preparing for a linching here but, ill say it.
> 
> i think the spitfire looked dull
> 
> 8) 8) 8)




Amen Brother!!!!!


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 5, 2005)

how can you possibly say the spit was dull???


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 5, 2005)

It just is...boring 8)


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 5, 2005)

Nut!


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 5, 2005)

Where? Ill eat it


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 5, 2005)

You sure you want me to answer that?


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## evangilder (Jan 5, 2005)

Man, I saw THAT one coming!


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 5, 2005)

Me too to be honest


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jan 5, 2005)

Am I _that_ predictable?


----------



## evangilder (Jan 5, 2005)

Kind of, but he left that one wide open.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 5, 2005)

Err...yes!


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 5, 2005)

I will agree with you partially CC. The earlier Spitfires I think were quite dull and not very good looking especially in the canopy and rudder area but the aircraft became quite attractive I think in the later models, when they started using the bubble canopies.


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 5, 2005)

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by describing the Spit (or any airplane) as dull. As far as appearance goes, the early Spits had alot going for them and had a sleeker look to them. Without the long barrelled cannons, blisters over the cannon drums, or buldged cowling for the Griffon, the Mark II seemed more streamlined than the Mk. XIV.


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## redcoat (Jan 6, 2005)

I tend to like the look of the later Spits, more than the Mark I or II. The earlier Mks had a round top to the tail, while on the later marks it was more pointed, which looks far better in my view.
Same with the propeller hub, thats quite rounded on earlier mks, while its more pointed on later mks, again I think that looks better.  


But I must admit to hating the late model Spits with a bubble canopy, they are horrid..... ugh!!!!!!!


----------



## plan_D (Jan 6, 2005)

The cannon armed ones look better, they look MEANER!


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

I prefer the Spits with the Griffon engine and Bubble canopies, but I still dont think theyre that great. I think the Hurricane was far better looking 8)


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 6, 2005)

Nut.  

No, I like the look of the Hurricane too.  
And as much as I like how the Spitfires looked, IMO the tail of the Mk.XXII just looks out of proportion. It spoils the look.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

Go on then what MK Spit do YOU think looks the best?


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jan 6, 2005)

Any but the Mk.XXII.  
Actually I like the look of most of them, but to me they started to look the best from about the Mk.VIII onward. 8)
Actually, better make that the Mk.IX onward since it was released first.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

Well I like the XXII 

The 5 bladed prop looked great...


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jan 6, 2005)

Yeah, I like the multibladed prop look too.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

What was the last Mk of Spit to be made in the war?


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jan 6, 2005)

I thought it was the Mk.XXII. Maybe I'm wrong.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

I thought there was a Mk XXVI


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jan 6, 2005)

Never heard of that one.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

I agree with CC, I like the XXII the best. I just think the earlier ones were not very sleak and I hate the canopies on them. Dont take me wrong it is just my personal opionion on them. The later ones looked great with the bubble canapy and to me the more stream lined look. I think the same way about my favorite fighter the Me-109. I just love the Me-109F, G, and K series. I think they just looked awesome, but I hate from the B to the E series. The E started looking better but I did not the like the roter hub with the flat tip and did not like the edged wing tips. The F onwards just looked more streamlined and more beautiful and the same goes for the Spitfire I believe.


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jan 6, 2005)

Thanks for the cool pics!  

And yeah, the later model 109's looked pretty snazzy too, IMO.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

Especially the K series 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> I thought there was a Mk XXVI



I have been able to find up to a Mk. XXIV.



> Supermarine Spitfire 23: Intended variant based on Mk 22 with improved 'laminar flow' wing. Prototype wing development (Supermarine Type 372) using Griffon-engined Supermarine Spitfire VIII QG204), first flown January 1944, and Mk 21 prototype (PP139). Production plans cancelled.
> Supermarine Spitfire F Mk 24: Post-war development of Mk22.
> http://www.jaapteeuwen.com/ww2aircraft/html%20pages/SUPERMARINE%20SPITFIRE%20(Griffon,%20fighter).htm


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 6, 2005)

Yeah, the Mk.XXIV just missed out on the war.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

Ah, looks like the Mk.XXII. was the last wartime varient then.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 6, 2005)

Told ya!


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

Yes it was the last war time varient, but from what I have read it did not reach operational units till after Germany's surrender. The Mk. XXIII and XXIV for were complete post war varients.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

Here is a little bit of info that I was able to find.



> March 1944 saw the prototype Mk XXI take to the air with a Griffon 61 engine. It was capable of giving over 2,000 hp and the aircraft was taken on as a high altitude air superiority fighter with a forecasted speed of over 470 mph. Sadly the prototype could only reach 450 mph and so the aircraft proved to be a disappointment. At the end of World War Two only 120 Mk XXI Spitfires had been built, all with the return of the older style cockpit and canopy.
> 
> From January 1946 four RAF squadrons operated the Mk XXIs, the last example being retired from service in August 1947. At this time the Air Ministry declared that as from the Mk XX, all Spitfire marks would change from roman numerals to arabic and so the Mk XXI became the Mk 21.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lightning Guy (Jan 6, 2005)

My point was just that the earlier marks had a cleaner look to them, without all the added bumps of wartime growth being tacked on. Besides, they were the classic Spits from the BoB.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

Ah well, each to their own 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 6, 2005)

and look at the size of the rudders on them things


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

Yeah it really is each persons perception and what they like.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 6, 2005)

No you're wrong! The later ones were cooler! 8) 

Just kidding!  To each their own.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 6, 2005)

it just so happens that some poeple are more correct than others


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jan 6, 2005)




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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

And those people would be me and the people who think like me. I mean what can I say. Great minds think alike!


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

Which is why noone shares my opinions


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

I have shared some opionions with you, I believe I agreed with you on the Spit.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

I was joking


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

oh stupid me


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

Never mind, its the British humour again


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

and again stupid me


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 6, 2005)




----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

Sometimes I dont get my own humour, so youre not alone


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

Oh dont worry I dont.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)




----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

:BIG:


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

sorry i just like these smilies for somereason, I must refrain from using them.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 6, 2005)

Addictive, aren't they?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 6, 2005)

Yeah they sure are.


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 6, 2005)

I'm not sure people every really agree with C.C. It seems to me that it is far more common for some one else to make a good point and then for C.C. to agree with them.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 7, 2005)

Lightning Guy said:


> I'm not sure people every really agree with C.C. It seems to me that it is far more common for some one else to make a good point and then for C.C. to agree with them.



Truer words were never spoken


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 7, 2005)

however this is one of the occasions when i agree with CC...............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 7, 2005)

Yeah I agree.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 7, 2005)

Now its all a big contradiction. Damn you!


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 7, 2005)

Its just a conspiracy against you CC.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 7, 2005)

I thought as much


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 7, 2005)

Ha Ha Ha, Run CC Run!


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 7, 2005)

I would, but because im so unfit ill run out of breath and the KGB will catch me!


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 7, 2005)

Id be more worried about Lanc catching you.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 7, 2005)

He cant even catch a cold, let alone a rogue piece of cheese attempting to escape the KGB  Now Ii wonder if I can jump this here razor wire fence on my bike to get over the border to Switzerland and saftey


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 7, 2005)

LOL, I wonder what lanc will say about that.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 7, 2005)

Probably something real obvious


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 7, 2005)

We will see.


----------



## plan_D (Jan 7, 2005)

You know if you jump into Switzerland, they'll fine you for reckless driving.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 7, 2005)

And they will fine you an arm and a leg, Switzerland is very expensive.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 7, 2005)

Tut tut plan_D, stealing quotes from Top Gear arent we...


----------



## plan_D (Jan 7, 2005)

There's no stealing, merely borrowing. That show was brilliant, I loved how smug Clarkson tried to be when he beat them.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 7, 2005)

Yes that was great. However, due to the fact that he *shouldnt* be exceeding the speed limits, id like to see him do a race like that in a crap car, a Nissan Bluebird for example


----------



## plan_D (Jan 7, 2005)

Now that wouldn't be much fun, would it? Although, it would wipe the smile off his face.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 7, 2005)

Never seen it.


----------



## Anonymous (Jan 7, 2005)

I think this thread is going for the MOST OFF-TOPIC REPLIES record!

 

Lunatic


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 7, 2005)

Yeah probably but it allways makes its way back.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 8, 2005)

and what do you mean i couldn't catch a cold?? i had several this winter........


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 8, 2005)

They caught you 



RG Lunatic said:


> I think this thread is going for the MOST OFF-TOPIC REPLIES record!



You aint seen NOTHING mate


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

As sad as the above quote is:


> You aint seen NOTHING mate


Its the truth actually....


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 8, 2005)

Disturbing, really


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 8, 2005)

especially if you've read it all..................


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

You really can learn about someone here with all the things said when they go off topic.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 8, 2005)




----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

Especially about the British Lads here, they are amusing.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 8, 2005)

well we try.........


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

But not on purpose....


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

Well I just learn more and more about British humor from these guys.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 8, 2005)

I dont have any humour for you to learn from unfortunately


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

Well Lanc has plenty of it, whether he realizes it or not.


----------



## Yeomanz (Jan 8, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> I dont have any humour for you to learn from unfortunately



are you realy irish , i could sware you had a english flag there a few weeks ago


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 8, 2005)

Dont laugh at him, its a medical condition he has and to be honest its a bit unfair to laugh


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

Yeah but its fun, and he can laugh at me in return.


----------



## Yeomanz (Jan 8, 2005)

, sorry i just wanted to hear what my laugh sounded like


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

With a laugh like that you dont get to many dates do you?
Just kidding.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 8, 2005)

Yeomanz said:


> cheddar cheese said:
> 
> 
> > I dont have any humour for you to learn from unfortunately
> ...



Ive never had an English flag  Its always been Soviet until a few weeks ago, when I changed it to Italian 8)


----------



## Yeomanz (Jan 8, 2005)

i knew it was itailen just testing


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

Which one you going to have next.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 8, 2005)

No idea...Thailand maybe...


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

Would be a nice tribute to the tragedy.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 8, 2005)

I guess, but I dont think I should because some people could think I was taking the mick...my thoughts are with the people though and I would give a nice generous donation if I had the money...


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

I cant get to my money if I wanted to and I try not to do the internet credit card thing. I got burned for that already last Christmas.


----------



## Anonymous (Jan 8, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I cant get to my money if I wanted to and I try not to do the internet credit card thing. I got burned for that already last Christmas.



Paypal is pretty secure - they might have a means to donate w/o a paypal charge, I don't know.

I have a buddy in Tailand who is working directly to help victims, so I just wired him $ to cover his normal expenses so he can be free to do what he can.

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

Yeah I have a couple of friends who fly Seahawks for the Navy and they are over there flying supplies and aid in. I just got an email from one of them and he said he could not believe the devastation. Mother Nature is not very forgiving.


----------



## Anonymous (Jan 8, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Yeah I have a couple of friends who fly Seahawks for the Navy and they are over there flying supplies and aid in. I just got an email from one of them and he said he could not believe the devastation. Mother Nature is not very forgiving.



Let's just hope the volcano in the Canary Ils. does not let loose during our lifetimes. The Mega-Tsunami calculated for that event will dwarf what's happened in E. Asia. It will completely wipe out Florida, and much of Georgia, SC, NC, Washington DC, western NY, and Mass. in the USA, the South coast of Britain and the west coast of France will also get it pretty bad. The Bahama's and Jamaica and most of the rest of the Carribean will just be gone.

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

That is crazy!


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 8, 2005)

RG_Lunatic said:


> DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah I have a couple of friends who fly Seahawks for the Navy and they are over there flying supplies and aid in. I just got an email from one of them and he said he could not believe the devastation. Mother Nature is not very forgiving.
> ...




Ppppppppppppfft, impossible.



There beeth not the force in a volcano to create this damage, not even in Olympus Mons if that happened to be on earth.



I can't see an 100ft wave going all the way across the Atlantic, hitting both sides seaboards, all the way across...


Anyway, how does an eruption cause a Tsunami?


Earthquakes cause the heavy vibrations and shifting needed to cause the giant waves to form.



NOT. GONNA. HAPPEN.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

You are wrong about Volcanos causing tsunamis. The force of a Volcanos eruption can cause the plates to shift which in turn causes an earthquake which in turn can cause a tsunami. It can also go the other way, earthquake causes plates to shift, which builds up pressure, which causes volcano to erupt.


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 8, 2005)

Still, there is no way that a volcano with that much force exists...


Oh, are we forgetting the fact THAT THE BLOODY CANARIES ARE NEXT TO AFRICA???

I highly doubt that even if there was a huge wave, it would go in a 360° path, spreading up towards France, right to Africa, and in a left diagonal path to Florida and the Carribbean...


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

Actually in this instance, the Volcano on the Canary Island Chain is right on the water, and what will cause the Tsunami is the amount of earth, lava and debris that will fall into the Atlantic Ocean, causing a horrific Wave(s) that will wipe out alot more than just 200,000 people....


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

I will agree with you you on that, that I dont think waves would extend out 360 degrees and cause tsunamis that would wipe out every coastal region on every continent in the Atlantic. However I would not count out the fact that a Volcano does not exist that can put out that much force.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> Actually in this instance, the Volcano on the Canary Island Chain is right on the water, and what will cause the Tsunami is the amount of earth, lava and debris that will fall into the Atlantic Ocean, causing a horrific Wave(s) that will wipe out alot more than just 200,000 people....



I agree, man are we so far of of topic though.


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 8, 2005)

I say the lava/magma would have a negative effect on the waves, due to the fact that it would heat it and steam, slowing down a wave...


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

Yes but the initial shock from it and volcanos have been known to cause earth quakes.


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 8, 2005)

Maybe the vibrations, but not the lava...



What I was saying is that the steam and heat wouldn't be too good for a wave to form...


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

Have u ever seen what happens when a piece of a glacier falls off into the water??? It creates a huge wave from the displacement of the water that the large chunks of ice form....

Multiply that force times 1000.. The land mass that will fall into the ocean from that volcano is larger than anything anyone has ever seen in recorded history.. I saw a program on the Discovery Channel concerning this..... 

The wall of water expected to reach the USA eastern coast is said to be in the 100 foot range, traveling at the speed of sound....


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 8, 2005)

Bullcrap...


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

I have seen National Geographic shows too on the subject and they have said a volcano or earthquake stong eneogh could create tidal waves as high as 200 ft and traveling at speeds of 600mph. Naturally they will slow down over distance but it is completly possible.


----------



## redcoat (Jan 8, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I have seen National Geographic shows too on the subject and they have said a volcano or earthquake Strong enough could create tidal waves as high as 200 ft and traveling at speeds of 600mph. Naturally they will slow down over distance but it is completely possible.


True, and if the wave doesn't get you, the gasses thrown up by a super eruption could cause a nuclear winter effect and you could either starve or freeze to death.
Mother Nature can be such a party pooper at times


----------



## Anonymous (Jan 8, 2005)

Ummm... it is going to happen. It is only a question of when, not if.

http://www.rense.com/general13/tidal.htm

You can search on "Canary Islands Tsunami" and find numerous information about this future event. It has happened before, there are 100 ton flung up from the ocean sitting on isles in the Bahamas to prove it. The very shape of those Islands, which are like arrows pointing East, was made by the last such wave.

A similar wave was generated when one of the Hawain Islands experianced a similar though larger event a few hundred thousand years back, which is the primary explanation for its very odd flora and fauna, most species were wiped out completely.

If you live on the East coast, you should be paying attention for any signs of activity of the Cumbre Vieja Volcano on the Island of La Palma in the Canary Islands. If so, pack up the family and your valuables and head West!

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jan 8, 2005)

Never!!! I was born an east coaster, and I'll die...Awww, who am I kidding?! I'm outta here!


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2005)

As I said Mother Nature is very unforgiving. It is as if she is trying out her own population control or just damn tired of us screwing up her environment.


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 8, 2005)

U happy and convinced now GrG???


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 8, 2005)

No.



I honestly can't see that happening.



If it happened before, why are the Caribbean Islands and Florida, not to mention all those other states and Africa still there?


Sure, you could say those dents along Africa's seaboard were caused by a past tsunami, but I truly doubt that a wave could reform a continent in a single blow.


Like I said, *NOT. GONNA. HAPPEN.*


----------



## Anonymous (Jan 9, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I have seen National Geographic shows too on the subject and they have said a volcano or earthquake stong eneogh could create tidal waves as high as 200 ft and traveling at speeds of 600mph. Naturally they will slow down over distance but it is completly possible.



Actually, the intial wave if the west slope of La Palma were to slide into the ocean would be about 650 meters in height. It would taper off to about 30-50 meters by the time it reached mid ocean, then it would rise up to over 100 meters as it came onshore on the coast of Florida.

It's pretty damn amazing. Fortunately, such events only happen once every few thousand years.

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## Anonymous (Jan 9, 2005)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> No.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Umm, don't you think the better question to ask is what explains the odd shape of that region? How else do you explain the presence of boulders weighing thousands of tons which are obviously from the ocean floor (this is easily determined) sitting atop various atolls of the Bahamas? You don't seriously think that such a wave would completely wash away major land masses do you?

Wake up m8. It is going to happen. Each time the volano(s) on La Palma errupt there is an increasing chance the west slope will give way. There is a major erruption every 150-200 years, but it's unpredictable. The last such erruption was back in about 1950 if I recall correctly. So another erruption could occur at any time, but probably won't happen till near the end of the century or maybe early into the next.

I'm not saying you should run for the hills, just pointing out that these kind of things are certainly possible. If you live on the E. Coast of the USA or Florida or the Bahamas, it would be prudent to get out of there if you hear that a Canary Island volcano has started to errupt. That's about the extent of it.

There are several such volcanic islands that are threatening to collapse, the one on La Palma just happens to be the one most likely to do so next. There are also similar structures under the ocean, which are generally not mapped, which could give way at any time, but unless it is truely huge these would generate smaller, though still catastrophic, tsunamis.

=S=

Lunatic


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 9, 2005)

redcoat said:


> DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
> 
> 
> > I have seen National Geographic shows too on the subject and they have said a volcano or earthquake Strong enough could create tidal waves as high as 200 ft and traveling at speeds of 600mph. Naturally they will slow down over distance but it is completely possible.
> ...




And how would nuclear winter come about?


What gases are in a volcano that have radioactive tendencies?


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 9, 2005)

RG_Lunatic said:


> GermansRGeniuses said:
> 
> 
> > No.
> ...





I know major eruptions are fairly common in the larger scheme of things (the 150-200 years, like you said), but why would this one be so different?

I have an idea that won't materialize due to the fact that no one would listen and that it's almost a sure improbability, even if someone did...


We should make a concrete wall all around the island and drain it (for the tunnellers, or else leave it full for submarines), similar to a building tower foundation or "anchor" for oil rig posts (the 60-something feet tall concrete thingos at the ocean floor, where the metal towers that lead to the platform connect; they're like feet, but I don't know the technical name)...


After this, we convert some submarines into automated drilling machines, (perhaps even taking out fuel tanks, leaving only engines, drilling bit and motor, and ballast compartments, among other simples - connect it with a fuel line, like an astronaut is connected to a shuttle through the oxygen tube - note that with a nuclear sub, this would not be required, but the chance of an explosion is too large for this type of work) or use those tunnel drillers to make a large hole in the side, causing the magma to jet out, being stopped partially or completely (depending on thickness of wall and power of volcano), creating a foundation that could be drained out and filled to make an artificial island to relocate the islanders.


Sure, there isn't the natural of the island, but then again, there wouldn't be after a natural eruption, now would there be?





Impossible?

Perhaps!

Is the volcano more likely to erupt than for this insanity to materialize, rendering me wrong as well as speechless?

Undoobitably!




Ahh, my insanity is back and I love it! 
 



Sure, the hole being drilled might cause the island to implode, but the machines would be automatons, and the island (and African coast, at least for a mile; just temporarily move the cities inland in case the wall doesn't help) would be evacuated!
*EDIT*~And there would be as little workers as humanly possible, don't want ANY crowding...


I dare anyone to _try_ to dream anything so insane!



Man, I'm gonna be a great aircraft engineer/designer with ideas so impossibly crazy, so long as I have the means to make them a reality...


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 9, 2005)

I agree it is going to happen some time


----------



## Anonymous (Jan 9, 2005)

What is different about this particular volcano is that it is the core of a small (several trillions of tons of rock above water) island, and the nature of the rock is such that the volcano has formed a series of containers which store water in vertical collums around the core.

Because of this, when it errupts the magma comming up the center of the core heats the water between the collumns (formed from magma from previous erruptions) which creates huge pressures to the side. The steepness of the volcanic mountain and its geological structure make the whole west 1/3rd-1/2 of the island unstable and eventually it will slide off into the sea. Odds are this will be a few thousand years from now, but it could be next week. We just don't know.

I'm not sure how feasable a plan to relieve the water pressure is, but I'd think such an idea would be at least worth exploring.

=S=

Lunatic


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 9, 2005)

I am sure there are people already doing so.


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 9, 2005)

But none with an idea so insane as mine...


Don't question the insanity, just embrace it.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 9, 2005)

Question it? Why would I question it? I have to live with it


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 9, 2005)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> Still, there is no way that a volcano with that much force exists...
> 
> 
> Oh, are we forgetting the fact THAT THE BLOODY CANARIES ARE NEXT TO AFRICA???
> ...



As you were saying, I just read this in this the news about the tsunami that just hit.



> Around the world, seismologists debated whether to issue tsunami warnings — but no mechanisms existed to get out the word. And unlike the Pacific rim, where tsunamis are a regular threat, there were no special buoys to provide an early warning in the Indian Ocean. The last major tsunami to hit the region was in 1883, when the Krakatoa volcano erupted.
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050109/ap_on_re_as/tsunami_two_weeks_later



Told you so! 8)


----------



## plan_D (Jan 10, 2005)

The reason this one would be different, GrG, is because La Palma would split in two when the volcano erupted. It would split and fall into the ocean, it's like dropping a pebble in a pond and looking at the shock wave. Imagine that times by over a million. 
All this was on the news a few months ago. It's highly unlikely it'll happen anytime soon. 

I've been to Gran Canaria (the biggest Canary Isle) it's a lovely place. I loved it so much, I've been there three times now. I've heard it's the best climate on the planet, I certainly agree.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 10, 2005)

Monaco is the best place on the earth, beleive me...


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 10, 2005)

I enjoyed Manaco but I still prefer the whole Island thing. The only time I have been to Gran Canaria though I was only 8 and my parents did not let me enjoy it much.


----------



## Anonymous (Jan 10, 2005)

plan_D said:


> The reason this one would be different, GrG, is because La Palma would split in two when the volcano erupted. It would split and fall into the ocean, it's like dropping a pebble in a pond and looking at the shock wave. *Imagine that times by over a million*.
> All this was on the news a few months ago. It's highly unlikely it'll happen anytime soon.



Just a minor point... we are talking about several trillions of tons, so it's far more than "a million times over". How many pebbles in ton? Let's say a million... Then multiply that by several trillion. It's an unimaginonably large number... as in something on the order of...

6,000,000,000,000,000,000 x a pebble.

 

Lunatic


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 10, 2005)

I can't do it now, but tommorrow I'm making a chart explaining why this isn't feasible...


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 11, 2005)

You'll be making a fool out of urself if u do GrG.....


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 11, 2005)

I won't, and I will!


----------



## Anonymous (Jan 11, 2005)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> I can't do it now, but tommorrow I'm making a chart explaining why this isn't feasible...



LOL - it's a proven fact this HAS HAPPENED many times in the past.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 11, 2005)

It has been documentented and recorded throughout history.


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## plan_D (Jan 11, 2005)

Didn't I say OVER A MILLION TIMES, not a million times over.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 11, 2005)

Yeah you did.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 13, 2005)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> I can't do it now, but tommorrow I'm making a chart explaining why this isn't feasible...



"Forgotten" have we? :Wink:


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

Yeah were is the chart?


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 13, 2005)

We want the chart!


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

CHART, CHART, CHART, CHART, CHART, CHART, CHART!!!!!!


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

Some form of chart is wanted, needed, craved by these young gentlemen.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 13, 2005)

(new) Elvis Presley - Jailhouse Rock (RCA) 


(1) Steve Brookstein - Against All Odds (Syco) 


(new) Iron Maiden - The Number Of The Beast (EMI) 


(new) Erasure - Breathe (Mute) 


(new) Scissor Sisters - Filthy/Gorgeous (Polydor) 


(2) Band Aid 20 - Do They Know It's Christmas (Mercury) 


(new) Dana Rayne - Object Of My Desire (Incentive) 


(new) Kasabian - Cutt Off (RCA) 


(6) Green Day - Boulevard Of Broken Dreams (Reprise) 


(7) Uniting Nations - Out Of Touch (Gusto) 


(3) Kylie Minogue - I Believe In You (Parlophone) 


(11) Gwen Stefani - What You Waiting For (Interscope) 


(4) Ronan Keating feat. Yusuf - Father And Son (Polydor) 


(8) Lemar - If There's Any Justice (Sony) 


(5) Ice Cube feat. Mack 10 Ms Toi - You Can Do It (All Around The World) 


(17) Jay Z / Linkin Park - Numb / Encore (WEA) 


(new) Seagulls Ska - Tom Hark (We Want Falmer) (Skint) 


(new) Interpol - Evil (Matador) 


(9) Nelly Christina Aguilera - Tilt Ya Head Back (Universal) 


(13) Snoop Dogg feat. Pharrell - Drop It Like It's Hot (Geffen) 


(10) Natasha Bedingfield - Unwritten (Phonogenic) 


(12) Girls Aloud - I'll Stand By You (Polydor) 


(14) Lethal Bizzle - Pow! (Forward) (Relentless) 


(20) Eric Prydz - Call On Me (Data) 


(18) Christina Aguilera feat. Missy - Car Wash (Dreamworks) 


(21) Usher - Confessions Part II/My Boo (La Face) 


(15) Merrion/McCall/Kensit - I Got You Babe/Soda Pop (BMG) 


(30) Blue - Curtain Falls (Innocent) 


(26) Michael Gray - The Weekend (Eye Industries/UMTV) 


(27) U2 - Vertigo (Island) 


(new) Urban Cookie Collective - The Key The Secret 2005 (Feverpitch) 


(16) Destiny's Child - Lose My Breath (Columbia) 


(22) 3rd Wish - Obsession (Si Es Amor) (Three8) 


(24) Robbie Williams - Misunderstood (Chrysalis) 


(23) Jamelia - DJ/Stop (Parlaphone) 


(25) Geri - Ride It (Innocent) 


(19) Eminem - Just Lose It (Interscope) 


(28) Brian McFadden - Irish Son (Modest/Sony Music) 


(31) 100 Percent feat. Jennifer John - Just Can't Wait (Saturday) (CR2) 


(35) Britney Spears - My Perogative (Jive) 





UK singles chart?


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

not quite what i was looking for


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

That's the biggest collection of shit in world history.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

Yeah Christina Aguilera? She makes my ears hurt.


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

I'm in the wrong country for music. While America had AiC this place had Spice Girls.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

Hey Victoria is hot, atleast yall had that. The music sucked but she was hot.


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

Do you want to run that by me again? She couldn't get any skinnier! And you lot had plenty of hot chicks AND good music.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

I thought she was hot. I go for the dark haired women. And yes we have some hot women in music over here too.


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

She's too skinny for me. While slow ridin' you'd be scared of snapping.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

Yeah but it would be fun to snap, right?


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

Man this has gotten way off topic!


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

I suppose, if not a little worrying..."Oh, there goes the spine"


----------



## Maestro (Jan 13, 2005)

plan_D said:


> She's too skinny for me. While slow ridin' you'd be scared of snapping.



How skinny she could be, she could never beat Celine Dion. Did you saw her ? She sucks !


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

I hate her music too.


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

But Celine Dion isn't good looking, even if she had a body...she'd still be ugly. 
There's two Best Fighter threads, so I think one is open to abuse.


----------



## Maestro (Jan 13, 2005)

I agree with both of you.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

Ha, yeah plus its okay to get off topic everyonce in a while.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

Any how I love Avril. Cant get eneogh of her plus she atleast wears the rock clothes.


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jan 13, 2005)

All Celine does is scream, and she reminds me of a younger version of my grandmother!


----------



## Maestro (Jan 13, 2005)

It's not a nice thing to say from your grand-mother...


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

I agree she does look like your grandmother. 
Just kidding man.


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jan 13, 2005)

Uhh...ok then.


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

Oh, Avril is hot. She'd get it...plus when Raine Maider started writing her stuff she has some good songs.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

I agree.


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

Maider's wife, Maider (  ), produces her albums as well - I'm informed. You can hear the touch of Our Lady Peace in her new music.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

I like Our Lady Peace also, they have some pretty good songs.


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

I like 'em, I've got all their albums. And my brother is on the live DVD.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

Thats great.


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

Isn't it, your enthusiasm shows you care.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 13, 2005)

forgive me for sounding like a mod but how is this related to the topic??


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

No I am serious. I just am getting really tired. It was a very long day.


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

Because we're all going to fight you at once, and then there'll be a poll as to who was the best.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 13, 2005)

ah, i see.......


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

Quite.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 13, 2005)

indeed.......


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

Stop that! Just too silly. Started out as a nice little conversation about music then it just went silly. "And he can't be a vicar, his hair is too long"


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

Woah, I think someone might be a bit mad!


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

No, it's monty python...well, with some altered words.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

I really need to watch that movie again.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 13, 2005)

and i think we can guess witch ones.............


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 13, 2005)

plan_D said:


> No, it's monty python...well, with some altered words.


Is that from a film or an episode?

If a film, what? Because I cant remember anything like that...


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

I only know a few of the films.


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

It's a sketch, but it's on the "Now for something completely different" film.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

How many did he make?


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

He? There's 6, Monty Python was a team. ANd there's four films. Life of Brian, Holy Grail, Now for something completely different and...AND...Meaning of Life

Plus all teh SKETCHS from Monty Pythons flying circus


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 13, 2005)

Not seen Now for something completely different, or any sketches...


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

Not even the PARROT SKETCH!?!


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 13, 2005)

No but Ive heard all about it


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

You...FAIL! Just get Now for something completely different, it's on there.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

I have only sean the Holy Grail and Meaning of Life.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 13, 2005)

Theyre the 2 best in my eyes 8) Ill hav to get the on that plan_D said. I would type it but I cant be arsed


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

Yes, the title is lengthy...I was considering going...Now for.....etc. ...but eh, you would be confused...maybe..


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 13, 2005)

Im constantly confused, its glandular.


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

I wasn't going to take the risk to confuse you...more than you already are, naturally.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 13, 2005)




----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2005)

....AHHH Im confused.


----------



## plan_D (Jan 13, 2005)

Buh?


----------



## Lightning Guy (Jan 13, 2005)

Never heard of the Parrot Sketch? And you call yourself British?


----------



## plan_D (Jan 14, 2005)

See! Even LG is mocking you.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 14, 2005)

Yeah I always that it was a prerequiset to be called British.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 14, 2005)

Lightning Guy said:


> Never heard of the Parrot Sketch? And you call yourself British?



I'm far from British, I'm from London


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jan 14, 2005)

What, London Ontario?


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 14, 2005)

No, London, England...


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jan 14, 2005)

Ah-Ha!!  


...Nothing, I just felt like saying "Ah-Ha".


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 14, 2005)

Its ok, I understand  (I dont really, but i do not wish to start a riot (I have no idea why a riot would start, but there you go (Am I going too far with these brackets?)))


----------



## evangilder (Jan 14, 2005)

Yup, he's English, not British. I learned that one a long time ago.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 14, 2005)

I was actually making a small joke that Londoners are nothing like the English and no-one seemed to get it, but there you go


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jan 14, 2005)

Oh, I got it. I just tried a post without smilies for once, and it failed miserably.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 14, 2005)

My life revolves around smileys  UI just would be me with out em...

Just got my 1:72 Airfix B-29, its bloody huge  2 foot wingspan, wont have any room on my shelf


----------



## evangilder (Jan 14, 2005)

Going to have to hang that one from the ceiling. I am working on a balsa Spitfire and that thing has a 27 inch wingspan! I already decided that one will be wheels up and hanging from the ceiling. Way too big to sit on a shelf!


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 14, 2005)

No...It must be shelved!


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 14, 2005)

I just built a Me-109G that has a wingspan of 2 ft. It was fun but my airbrush got clogged with sand and broke so I never was able to finish painting it. I also just bought a UH-60L Blackhawk that is 3ft. long but I will not start it until I get back home.


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 14, 2005)

Cool 8)

Before i build my B-29 though I have other things to make. I have to finish my Fiat G.50, then I have an Me-163, Hawker Hurricane, Lancaster, Spitfire and Yak-3 to do


----------



## evangilder (Jan 14, 2005)

That should give you time to get a bigger shelf then!


----------



## Medvedya (Jan 14, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> Lightning Guy said:
> 
> 
> > Never heard of the Parrot Sketch? And you call yourself British?
> ...



Ah, the Norwegian Blue.....

What part of London are you from?


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 14, 2005)

Peckham


----------



## plan_D (Jan 14, 2005)

Haha! Plonker...


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 14, 2005)

8)


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 14, 2005)

and i'm gonna shelf my B-29.............


----------



## cheddar cheese (Jan 14, 2005)

Its seriously big lanc...


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 15, 2005)

untill you get a 1:72 B-36 you have no right to tell me what's big..........


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 15, 2005)

only 1:72. I have seen bigger.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 15, 2005)

yes but i have a 1:72 B-36, he does not, as such i have a considderably bigger moddle than the B-29...........


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 15, 2005)

Monty Pythons Flying Circus 14 disc box set.....
http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=70174

BTW, Monty Python made 5 movies, not 4....... 

And Now For Something Completely Different, Monty Python and the Holy Grail, Monty Python's Life of Brian, Monty Python Live at the Hollywood Bowl and Monty Python's Meaning of Life.....


----------



## plan_D (Jan 15, 2005)

I'm sorry, I didn't know we were counting live movies. And my dad has every single episode of Monty Python on DVD...which in turn means, I have it too.


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 15, 2005)

U lucky bizitch....... Id love to watch all those episodes and laugh my ass off....


----------



## plan_D (Jan 15, 2005)

I know, it's great. Score one, me.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 16, 2005)

Ill just stick to Friends!


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 16, 2005)

i love friends..............


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 16, 2005)

Yeah so do I. It is my fav of all times.


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 16, 2005)

Seinfeld is it for me.....
Original Battlestar Galactica series was the Shiznit as well.....


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 16, 2005)

I love Seinfeld also.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 16, 2005)

never seen it..............


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 16, 2005)

You are deffinatly missing out my friend.


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 16, 2005)

OMFG..... If u have never seen an episode of Seinfeld, u have been robbed of a large piece of Americana...... Alot of it I relate to, since I am from Long Island NY, and it is filmed in NYC.....

Damn......


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 16, 2005)

It deffinatly is truely one of the greats.


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 16, 2005)

Booooooooooring...


I saw one episode and it was moderately entertaining, but not enough to warrant me going back to it...


Never seen Friends, probably never will.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 16, 2005)

Then you have no idea what good entertainment is and how can you not have seen Friends? It was only the no. 1 show on tv for 10 years. And you call yourself your an American!


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 16, 2005)

No I don't...





I've skipped through it when it was on, but even then, it was in Brasil.


Never actually changed the channel to NBC to actually try to watch it.



I've actually unofficially declared myself _not_ a citizen of the United States while someone I'm smarter than is in office... (I won't name names, it's rude...  )



Also, I can actually do this because I have dual nationality!


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 16, 2005)

Its alright dont worry I did not vote for him anyhow.


----------



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 16, 2005)

Thank you for the two valuable services you are performing...


_Not_ voting for a stupid person and serving in Iraq...


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 16, 2005)

To be honest I did not like Bush or Kerry.


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 16, 2005)

I dont think Ive ever voted for a President that I actually lliked.....


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2005)

Yeah I can say the same thing.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 18, 2005)

then on what grounds do you vote for someone then??


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 18, 2005)

Whoever I think is the lesser of the two evils.  No whoever I think will do a better job, so yeah actually more of who I think is the lesser of two evils.


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## Udet (Jan 18, 2005)

Politicians are all worthless pieces of shit.

By only hearing the word "politician" other words come into my mind: theft, corruption, lies, fraud, deceit...

And this applies to absolutely all the politicians of all the nations of this planet. It is a universal quantification.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 18, 2005)

Here, here!


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## lesofprimus (Jan 18, 2005)

I totally and whole-heartedly agree 100%.......

And I did the same with voting.. The lesser of 2 evils..... I cant fathom how anyone could vote for Kerry tho....... And I really cant fathom how I coulda voted for Bush....

So, either way u look at it, America will still keep on kicking everyone elses ass, no matter whos in the Whitehouse...


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## plan_D (Jan 18, 2005)

No matter who you vote for, the government is going to get in.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 18, 2005)

Deep.


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## evangilder (Jan 18, 2005)

I'm with you Les. I wasn't crazy about Bush, but less crazy about Kerry. Lesser of 2 evils, or who you dislike less. The problem is that both parties have moved so far from the center, which is where most people are (the center). You end up with a really polarized race and no one else wins. It sucks.

I sometimes think that us veterans should form our own party. One, most of us have been to foreign countries and seen them and how the real people live. Secondly, we have seen the blood and guts, smelled the cordite, and the fear. WE know better than most of the Washington assholes when it's time to do some ass-kicking, and we can do it right, without all the politically correct crap and then get the guys home. Instead of taking a knife to a gunfight, take a nuke to a fistfight!! Throw EVERYTHING at them. The next two-bit pissant third world shithole dictator will think twice after watching one of his friends get seriously jacked up.

Okay, stepping off the soapbox here. Sometimes I get a little fired up.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 18, 2005)

Hehe....


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 18, 2005)

I'd love to get fired up like that and state my opinions (which are very similar to yours, evan), but look where I live. 

Alright, before I begin another pointless self-bashing rant, I'll just stop right here.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 18, 2005)

LMFAO......


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## evangilder (Jan 18, 2005)

Too funny NS. I ranted my guts and I live in SoCal. This is not an area known for conservatism (ahem). But I wasn't born or raised here. I can understand your quandry, you are still in the service, so you have to be careful what you say. It's cool.

"I can neither confirm nor deny the presence of Nonskimmer, anywhere in the world"


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 18, 2005)

That's funny, evan!
I'll just say this, then I'll drop it. Most of us "old timers" in the mob up here long for something much, much more for ourselves (the military), or at least a return to the level of professionalism and integrity that we once knew. A decent quantity of decent equipment and personnel is _sorely_ needed. And a clear sense of purpose.

All Americans need to take great pride in their service men and women!  
Whether you agree with this conflict or not, support them! They need you!


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## plan_D (Jan 18, 2005)

Careful, NS. The promise of a greater military is what helped Hitler get into power, you may be getting yourself branded a Nazi!  

I'm just kiddin'


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## evangilder (Jan 19, 2005)

Agreed NS. It was a happy day for the family when they cut the yellow ribbon off the tree at my aunt and uncle's house on my cousins arrival home. He spent more that a year there and we wrote him regularly, even though we only heard back sporadically. No matter the circumstances behind the deployments, our guys will ALWAYS have my support, and I am relatively sure that Les feels the same.


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## Erich (Jan 19, 2005)

Personally I voted for Herr Bush only because I wanted him in to continue the struggle we are in and will get ever deeper..............he seems strong enough to handle the situation as long as congress doesn't patsy around, but that was just the case when we were in Nam and didn't let us do the job..........

Kerry is a fool and a traitor as I know this from Nam. 

we have our guys seeking out "items" in Iran, Syria and Lebanon and elsewhere such as North Korea, so typically to me it doesn't really matter who is president as long as they do not live the lie. wonder though how Amerika will react when Mrs' Clinton gets into power in 2008. time for a baking party with Martha Stewert ? geez


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 19, 2005)

evangilder said:


> I'm with you Les. I wasn't crazy about Bush, but less crazy about Kerry. Lesser of 2 evils, or who you dislike less. The problem is that both parties have moved so far from the center, which is where most people are (the center). You end up with a really polarized race and no one else wins. It sucks.
> 
> I sometimes think that us veterans should form our own party. One, most of us have been to foreign countries and seen them and how the real people live. Secondly, we have seen the blood and guts, smelled the cordite, and the fear. WE know better than most of the Washington assholes when it's time to do some ass-kicking, and we can do it right, without all the politically correct crap and then get the guys home. Instead of taking a knife to a gunfight, take a nuke to a fistfight!! Throw EVERYTHING at them. The next two-bit pissant third world s**t dictator will think twice after watching one of his friends get seriously jacked up.
> 
> Okay, stepping off the soapbox here. Sometimes I get a little fired up.



I could not agree with you more fully. We do need to make our own party. We are working class people who lay our lives on the line and pay the ultimate sacrifice (THOU SHALT NOT BE FORGOTTEN). We have seen how the people live in other countries. We truely understand what is going on out there. I believe that the Iraq situation would be much better if the damn assholes who call themselves politicians would but out and let us military people handle it. All the politicians do is make the situation worse. My favorite is how they tell the press that the moral is great over here, they need to come over here and see how low the moral is. Why is the moral so low not so much because we are away from our families, but because our hands are tied behind our backs. Everyday I fly dead soldiers on there final trip home and why did they die because they could not defend themselves! If you do not see the "smoking gun" you can not fight back. We go into cities and rid them of the insurgents and then pull out and let them right back in. We can not go into religious areas because the poloticians want to win there hearts and minds but that is where the bad guys go to the religious areas since we cant them. We are fighting this war with our hands tied behind our backs. 

Secondly I believe that a requirement to be President is that you have served in the armed forces and not as a reservist who did not show up for duty because they went campaining or a draft dodger. You can not send young men and women to die unless you too have faced the dangers taht you are sending them into. They sit there on Christmas and tell the people how they want to thank us for our sacrifices and understand how it feels to be away from our families when they never served and are sitting there with there families enjoying Christmas dinner. They can all kiss my ass. I hate them all.

Allright I am going to stop now, I am getting carried away and now just ranting on my personal beliefs of polotics and I hate polotics. Sorry about my rant guys, but it feels good to get it out.


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## evangilder (Jan 19, 2005)

Adler, of all the people here, you have the most right to vent, my friend. You're out there on the lines and see and hear what we never see or hear from the press. You make us proud.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 19, 2005)

Don't worry about the rant, man. If anyone is entitled to it, it's you. Rant away if you wish.
I for one wish you the very best of luck, and I admire you for what you're doing: putting your ass on the line, in the service of your country.  

Now just make it home safe!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 19, 2005)

Thank you very much you know what my favorite was? Rumsfeld (I really dont like this guy) came to Iraq on Christmas eve and he said he wanted to visit the troops and tell us what a good job we are doing and since we cant be home with our family's he was going to spend Christmas eve with us. 7 hours later he got on a plane and went back to Washington and with the time zones and everything he never missed it with his family. I dont know anything about his prior military service but I dont think he did much but he claims to be gods greatest gift to the US military. All I have seen him do is medle in our affairs and screw it all up!


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## Erich (Jan 19, 2005)

Adler, soldier and friend your correlation is the same as mine back in 1970's..........although my capacity was something a bit different. Yes we were bound, and we sacked out like a bunch of scattered rats. Hanoi should of been flattened and we had the means to do so........

what do you think you should be doing since our government has tied your hands ? just want your honest opinion as a dedicated serviceman serving our country

v/r

Erich ~ one target, one bullet


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## evangilder (Jan 19, 2005)

Nice pic Adler! That's you on the left, correct?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 19, 2005)

Erich said:


> Adler, soldier and friend your correlation is the same as mine back in 1970's..........although my capacity was something a bit different. Yes we were bound, and we sacked out like a bunch of scattered rats. Hanoi should of been flattened and we had the means to do so........
> 
> what do you think you should be doing since our government has tied your hands ? just want your honest opinion as a dedicated serviceman serving our country
> 
> ...



You are absolutly correct Erich. This is my generations Vietnam. And we are paying the price for policians blunders. To be honest what I think we should do, and this really does go against my principles because I do not believe in harming innocent women and children but the enemy is hiding out in these towns and villages and the population of the towns knows this and knows that they are there. When an attack happens in one of the towns it should be flattened completely destroyed and nothing remains. After this happens a few times people might start turning them over or atleast telling us and warning us of there wereabouts.. I believe that when I find someone setting up a road side bomb, rather than detain him and bring him to prison he should be shot on the spot and his body left there for all to see. The best weapon is fear and all these people know is fear. When you try and be nice to them they kill you. When we engage we are to use the minimum force necessary so as not to kill, screw that if he is dead he can not kill some one later. I think we need to stop being so friendly and if we are going to fight a war the government needs to let us fight this war the way it needs to be done. The problem is these people kill each other too. It is a situation that is similar to Bosnia, Croatia, and Kosovo in there war with Serbia in the mid 90's. They have no regard to human life and take it at will, if they do not want our help then we need to leave (which we can not do because we have to finish what we started) or the government needs to allow us to fight a war with every means possible instead of letting us get slaughtered like rats as you say.



evengilder said:


> Nice pic Adler! That's you on the left, correct?



Thank you yes I am the one on the left. My unit has been flying flags all over Iraq especially to Tikrit and Baghdad and back and sending them back to people in the states. We take a photo of the flag being held by the crew after the mission and print up a certificate stating where it went to and signed by the crew. If anyone would like to have one if you send me your address in a private message I can try and get a couple of more flags (they are selling out like crazy at the px, everyone buys one and gives us flags to fly for there family back home) and fly one and send it to you.


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## evangilder (Jan 19, 2005)

Adler, I totally agree with you. Unfortunately, there is too much of that touchy feely crap in government and they are so averse to offending anyone. There are exceptions. I got this one sent to me the other day and I loved it:
_City Councilman ejected from studio

T. Bubba Bechtol, part time City Councilman from Midland, TX, was asked on a local live radio talk show the other day just what he thought of the allegations of torture of the Iraqi prisoners. His reply prompted his ejection from the studio, but to thunderous applause from the audience.

"If hooking up an Iraqi prisoner's scrotum to a car's battery cables will save one American GI's life, then I have just two things to say":

"Red is positive"
"Black is negative" 
_

I couldn't agree more.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 19, 2005)

wow you don't look how i thought you would.............


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## Erich (Jan 19, 2005)

Adler thank you for your reply. I apologize for my direct question to you as it was off topic. It should of been done in a private.

be on your guard friend. I found in my past it was best to always be on the move not allowing others to pick you out. Trust no-one !

one target, one bullet


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 19, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> wow you don't look how i thought you would.............



LOL, How am I supposed to look?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 19, 2005)

not like that................


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 19, 2005)

I find that funny.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 19, 2005)

evangilder said:


> _City Councilman ejected from studio
> 
> T. Bubba Bechtol, part time City Councilman from Midland, TX, was asked on a local live radio talk show the other day just what he thought of the allegations of torture of the Iraqi prisoners. His reply prompted his ejection from the studio, but to thunderous applause from the audience.
> 
> ...



8) 8)


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## plan_D (Jan 19, 2005)

Haha. Brilliant...I couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Udet (Jan 19, 2005)

Hello Der Adler!

You made several strong points in your comments.

As you can see people, Der Adler is experiencing himself many of the things the German soldiers experienced throughout the countries Germany attacked and occupied.

Has any of you ever read a book from an individual named Omer Bertov, where he speaks of the German invasion of the USSR and the "barbarization of warfare"?

The book is mainly bunk, depicting absolutely all the German soldiers, officers and commanders as terrorific demons whose blood lust could not be ever satisfied; remorseless beasts, so the author says.

The opposite side of the coin is the soviet population of the areas where the Wehrmacht operated: they were all inoccent harmless hummingbirds simply exercising their holy sacred divine right of defending their homeland.

The German soldiers had no right to defend themselves from partisan attacks or after being ambushed by people wearing no military uniform: whenever they did, in a powerful reaction, the Germans were "criminals".

Do you realize how easy is for virtually any individual to approach the war in such a manner the serves his personal agenda?

Today, the USA is the attacker and invader. That the reasons Hitler had for launching Barbarossa are completely different to those the USA had to invade Irak in this century, might be true, but in the end the scenario is virtually the same. It is not my point to get further into silly details of comparing Barbarossa with the military invasion of the USA in Irak.

The fact is the world sees a foreign army occupying an independent nation where a big number of its inhabitants do not like the invaders; many of them will pick whatever weapon they can to kill as many invaders as possible.

Der Adler makes a strong point when he says you can not be gentle and nice with the people of the invaded country: many of them will be glad to kill you if they have the chance, so imposing fear becomes compulsory. You do not have time to detect with accuracy which ones are likely to be friendly from those who are to be hostile.

You assume all of them are your enemies. Is this what you are trying to point out Der Adler?

In many places, many German officers and soldiers applied the principle Der Adler is poiting here, and for that the Wehrmacht was put in trial and copped out as "tool for genocide"; a ruddy ridiculous verdict, laughable.

If the leaders of one nation decide to go to war it shall be assumed they are aware of the consequences of such a tremendous decision. All wars have brutality attached to them. I am sure many soldiers of the USA have committed acts of brutality against inoccent iraki civilians -the scandal of the abuses on Iraqi POWs conducted by the red neck punks the USA Army brought in to take care of the prisons would be a joke- , in one level or another, and such acts will continue to happen for as long as the USA army stays in Irak.

Violence of course brings more violence. The violence applied by the side keeping the upper hand (USA) can certainly help for a while, but the problem will certainly continue to be there, and the violence of the subjugated side (people of Irak) will certainly rose to the surface sooner or later.

All soldiers have all my respect and admiration; in the end they are the ones paying the high cost of the decisions of the lunatics in power.

Der Adler, i tell you all this with all due respect, and again, admiration. I wish you the best and that soon you can get out of there and make it home safe; there must be some people waiting for you.

Cheers!


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## Anonymous (Jan 20, 2005)

I wish I had time to reply in this thread.... but it will have to wait till the weekend.

=S=

Lunatic


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 20, 2005)

Udet said:


> Hello Der Adler!
> 
> You made several strong points in your comments.
> 
> ...



I am sorry Udet, but that was not my point at all. Killing innocent women and children is not something that I want to do and as I said it is against my principle. All I was saying that inorder to fight fire you have to fight fire with fire. Defending yourself from insurgent attacks is not genocide you can not compare them.

Also you can not compare what we are doing right now to the invasion of Russia. We did not come here to take the land away from the Iraqis. We did not come here to take there natural resources. So please with all do respect do not compare Iraq to Operation Barbarossa or any thing that went on in WW2.

I will agree with you that the vast majority of soldiers had nothing to do with any attrocities that were committed in WW2 however you can not make them all out to be saints. Terrible things were committed by many soldiers, also by the Russians themselves. But you can not justify the action as a whole.


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## Udet (Jan 20, 2005)

Hi Der Adler!

Of course I did not by any means suggested killing innocent civilians to subjugate an enemy is a valid thing. No way.

I am not interested in debating the reasons of the USA to invade Irak. There are so many versions available I do not have time to assess them all.

The core of my idea is that during war, the armed forces occupying an enemy country experience terrible situations that are allegedly to be handled in accordance with determined sets of rules. Reading the rules on the paper can be relatively easy for those moving forward to the front lines, but the situations of war can lead to specific circumstances when the rules certainly might not be complied.

I do not have any doubts you and most of the US soldiers in Irak are honorable people; I am sure there are thugs in the US Army over there though. 

Many of you are bound to face extreme situations of danger and then anything can happen and innocent people will always suffer during wars.

Furthermore, if my view is correct, you are no longer fighting against an organized enemy army with clearly indentifiable military uniforms. You are now rather facing lose groups and bands of Iraki civilians or rebels armed with personal firearms, personal bombs and many kinds of home made explosive things, resorting to the hit and run tactics.

Do not me wrong it is not the point to compare the present day US invasion with Barbarossa. It was more about telling you are experiencing nearly equal if not identical situations to those experienced by the German soldiers, or by any other soldiers occupying enemy territory.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 20, 2005)

I have to disagree to some point. The Germans that did committ acts of trechary against the Russians or anyone else, new that these people were not partisans or military. They would slaughter whole towns and villages. There is a difference between that and what we are facing. You are correct in your assumption that we are no longer fighting a uniformed enemy which makes it much more dangerous and very like what the soldiers faced in Vietnam. Yes they did fight the Regulars as they called them who wore uniforms but anyone you encountered could have been the bad guy trying to kill you. And unfortunatly what I have learned is it is not like in the movies, the good guy does not always win. But we will overcome this and we will prevail.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 20, 2005)

in real life the good guy never wins..........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 21, 2005)

No the good guy wins but at a high cost.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 21, 2005)

his life??


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 21, 2005)

Not his life, but the lives of many.


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## Erich (Jan 21, 2005)

but in the end good always overcomes evil..........

the mideast struggle will never stop till the end of time. The fight in Iraq is only the beginning


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 21, 2005)

you are correct on both accounts.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 21, 2005)

well there's been conflict in that area since the humans have been there..........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 21, 2005)

yes just like the balkans.


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## Maestro (Jan 21, 2005)

My history teacher in "History of the 20th century" said that Balkans peoples are all born with an AK-47 in their hands...


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 21, 2005)

Child Benefit out there is obviously better than we first thought


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## Medvedya (Jan 21, 2005)

Peckham...Hmm, nice, I think...... What a shit-hole!


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 21, 2005)

Peckham is a shit hole, dont be afraid to say it


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## Medvedya (Jan 21, 2005)

To be fair, I don't often go south of the river much, but I sometimes went though the place on my way to Camberwell.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 21, 2005)

Dont stop there or you'll be dead in minutes...

I'm going to Weston tomorrow


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 21, 2005)

Good luck, say hi to Helen for me............


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## Medvedya (Jan 21, 2005)

And Cute Corporal, if you see her.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 21, 2005)

Nah...


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 21, 2005)

Maestro said:


> My history teacher in "History of the 20th century" said that Balkans peoples are all born with an AK-47 in their hands...



Is he ex-Airborne by any chance? 

And CC, ya know you're dying to meet her/him/it!


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 21, 2005)

Nah


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 22, 2005)

Maestro said:


> My history teacher in "History of the 20th century" said that Balkans peoples are all born with an AK-47 in their hands...



I can believe that.


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## Maestro (Jan 22, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> Maestro said:
> 
> 
> > My history teacher in "History of the 20th century" said that Balkans peoples are all born with an AK-47 in their hands...
> ...



No. I think he's never been in the army.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 22, 2005)

hell i'd be dying to meet her


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## Anonymous (Jan 23, 2005)

Medvedya said:


> And Cute Corporal, if you see her.



LOL - I bet "cute corporal" was a guy in drag!


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## Anonymous (Jan 23, 2005)

The Balkins is an interesting case....

After all, the "Turks" basically moved in when the Serbs ran for the hills to escape the Germans. By all reasonable standards, they should have been driven out when the Germans were driven out. But for whatever reason, Tito would not allow this.... and the hatred brewed for 50 years until his death when it exploded in a very ugly way.


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## plan_D (Jan 23, 2005)

Is it me...or do you have an opinion on everything!?!  Just kiddin'


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## Anonymous (Jan 23, 2005)

plan_D said:


> Is it me...or do you have an opinion on everything!?!  Just kiddin'



LOL - I have an opinion on most things. I read a lot, and I have friends from all over the world.

One of my friends is Greek. You should hear his tirade when the subject of the "turks" in Serbia comes up. Hitler brought them in to work the land for him when the Yugoslavians moved into the mountains rather than capitulate. Don't you think it is wrong that they should have ended up owning any of that land occupied in such a way?


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## plan_D (Jan 23, 2005)

Of course, I agree with you. The Turks infest everywhere, I bet your Greek friend hates them for Cyprus too. My dad was there when they invaded...

But all that East Europe is screwed up for one reason or another. I think it was Serbia that created the Muslim SS Division...no one more loyal than a Muslim, so Himmler says..REMEMBER that folks.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 23, 2005)

is it true about the muslin SS??


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## plan_D (Jan 23, 2005)

There was a Muslim SS Division, yes. Now I think about it, I think it came from some country beginning with B...Bulgaria..maybe...


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 23, 2005)

There were Croat muslims in the SS I believe. Or maybe they were Serbs.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 23, 2005)

plan_D said:


> There was a Muslim SS Division, yes. Now I think about it, I think it came from some country beginning with B...Bulgaria..maybe...



Barnsley


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 23, 2005)

which is a country how??


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 23, 2005)

It isnt, it was joke obviously too complicated for you to understand...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 23, 2005)

nope i got it, just not very ammused by it............


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 23, 2005)

Normally people are amused by jokes...never heard of "ammused"


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 23, 2005)

that was about equally amusing as you previos joke..................


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 23, 2005)

I havent made a previos joke  I made one previously... 

My list of "lancisms" is coming on strong


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 23, 2005)

it's perfectly legitamte to say "your previous joke"


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 23, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> is it true about the muslin SS??



There were 2 Muslim SS Divisions. One was a Bosnian Division and an Albanian Division. If I recall though they were both made up of people from other places also including Croatia, Kosovo, and Serbia. They even wore fez's with skulls on them.



> Grand Mufti of Jerusalem organises recruitment to Bosnia's SS division
> During the Second World War in Yugoslavia, as with the Catholic Church in Croatia, many Muslim clerics in Bosnia and Kosovo were willing accomplices in the genocide of the nations Serbian, Jewish and Roma population. From 1941 until 1945, the Nazi-installed regime of Ante Pavelic in Croatia carried out some of the most horrific crimes of the Holocaust (known as the Porajmos by the Roma), killing over 800,000 Yugoslav citizens - 750,000 Serbs, 60,000 Jews and 26,000 Roma. In these crimes, they were helped by Muslim fundamentalists in Bosnia and Kosovo who were openly supported by the Palestinian Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini. A notorious anti-Semite, he openly encouraged Muslims to join Nazi units that would be later implicated in genocide and crimes against humanity - the infamous Hanjar (or Handschar) 13th Waffen SS division. One of these crimes was the The Massacre at Koritska Jama Gorge, in Bosnia during 1941. The Nazi's also established a puppet state in Serbia under General Milan Nedic, who along with the Cetniks also particapated in the Holocaust in wartime Croatia (which included Bosnia) and Serbia.
> 
> What united al-Husseini and the Third Reich was a common hatred of the Jewish people. The Nazis had taken al-Husseini under their protection following the wartime invasion of Iraq. He was to spend most of the war living in a luxurious suite at the Hotel Adlon in Berlin. Hitler had enjoyed quite a following among the nationalist youth of Egypt during the war, after Nassiri Nasser, the brother of the future president of Egypt, had published an Arab edition of Mein Kampf in 1939, describing its author as the "strongest man of Europe". Not surprisingly, Egypt became like Argentina after the war - a safe haven for SS war criminals who fled there after the war. Many were keen to help President Nasser in his attempts to destroy the State of Israel. There is evidence that the shadowy ODESSA network helped many of them to Egypt. Apart from Syria - who still host the wanted SS war criminal Alois Brunner, it was in Egypt that the Post-war Arab links to the ODESSA network were strongest.
> ...



[quote:8aa86d6a2c]Islam Under the Swastika 
The Grand Mufti and the Nazi Protectorate of Bosnia-Hercegovina, 1941-1945 

by Carl Savich 

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem: Haj Amin el Husseini 

Haj Amin el Husseini arrived in Europe in 1941 following the unsuccessful pro-Nazi coup which he organized in Iraq. He met German foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop and was officially received by Adolf Hitler on November 28,1941 in Berlin. Nazi Germany established for der Grossmufti von Jerusalem a Bureau from which he organized the following: 1) radio propaganda on behalf of Nazi Germany; 2) espionage and fifth column activities in Muslim regions of Europe and the Middle East; 3) the formation of Muslim Waffen SS and Wehrmacht units in Bosnia-Hercegovina, Kosovo-Metohija, Western Macedonia, North Africa, and Nazi-occupied areas of the Soviet Union; and, 4) the formation of schools and training centers for Muslim imams and mullahs who would accompany the Muslim SS and Wehrmacht units. As soon as he arrived in Europe, the Mufti established close contacts with Bosnian Muslim and Albanian Muslim leaders. He would spend the remainder of the war organizing and rallying Muslims in support of Nazi Germany. 

Bosnian Muslim Handzar SS Division 

Haj Mohammed Effendi Amin el Husseini was born in 1893 in Jerusalem, then the capital of Palestine, which was then a part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. His grandfather Mustapha and his half-brother Kemal had been the Muftis of Jerusalem in the 1890s. Husseini attended the Al Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt, where he studied Islamic philosophy, but he never completed his studies and left after a year. In 1914, he obtained a commission in the Ottoman Turkish Army as an artillery officer, stationed in Smyrna. 

On November 2, 1917, British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour declared that Britain was committed to establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine, the so-called Balfour Declaration of 1917. The Balfour Declaration was initially contained in a letter to Lionel Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron of Rothschild, of the Jewish banking family, who was the leader of British Jewry. Chaim Weizmann and Nahum Sokolow, prominent Jewish Zionist leaders in London and the World Zionist Organization, sought to obtain such a commitment in exchange for Jewish support of British war aims. The global Zionist movement had pressured the British government to support a Jewish homeland at the expense of the indigenous Muslim Arab Palestinians, dismissed as ìArab inhabitantsî. The powerful and influential Jewish banking house Rothschild and Chaim Weizmann demanded a quid pro quo for global Jewish support of the British war effort against Germany. The modern platform for the Zionist movement was established at the World Zionist Congress held in 1897 in Basel, Switzerland by Hungarian Jew Theodor Hertzl. 

In 1917 the British occupied Palestine and established the British Mandate for Palestine. 

The Mufti rejected the British policy of settling Palestine with European Jews. At the time of World War I, there were only approximately 60,000 Jews in Palestine compared to approximately 800,000 Palestinian Muslims. Husseini saw Jewish immigration and settlement in zero-sum terms. Each Jewish settler displaced a Palestinian Muslim, diluted the Palestinian population, and in time, would lead to the genocide of the Palestinian people. Husseini perceived the issue in these terms. He rejected both the Balfour Declaration and the British Mandate over Palestine, which was meant to lead to the implementation of the Balfour Zionist agenda. Husseini devoted his entire life and career to the preservation of a Palestinian state and opposed the establishment of a proposed Jewish homeland on Palestinian land and sought to prevent Jewish immigration into Palestine. 

He formed a Society of Palestinian Youth and wrote articles in Arab newspapers arguing against the British Mandate occupation and British immigration policies. On April 4,1920, he was accused of inciting riots against Jewish crowds in Jerusalem. He was tried by a military court with incitement to violence. He subsequently absconded from his bail and was tried in absentia and sentenced to ten years imprisonment. 

Haj Amin al-Huseini, Mufti of Jerusalem and leader of the Palestinian Arabs, seen talking to Heinrich Himmler in 1943. 

On July 1,1920, Sir Herbert Samuel, himself a British Jew, appointed the first British High Commissioner for Palestine, assumed control. Samuel sought to reconcile with the Palestinian population by pardoning Husseini. Sir Robert Storrs, the then governor of the city, appointed him Mufti of Jerusalem. He was also the president of the Supreme Muslim Council, and, later, the Arab Higher Committee. He was thus the religious and political leader of the Palestinian Muslims.Ý Husseini was one of the most influential and powerful leaders in the Islamic world because of the fact that Jerusalem was a holy city and contained many Islamic holy sites, including the Dome of the Rock mosque in Jerusalem, the third most sacred Islamic site in Islam after Mecca and Medina. 

Husseini detested the decadent modern European materialistic way of life and modern secular Western civilization. He was then what would today be called a Muslim fundamentalist and was the precursor of Iranian Ayatollah Ruhollah Hendi Khomeini, Egyptian Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, the mastermind behind the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993, planned with the assistance of Bosnian Muslims, but initially blamed by the FBI on the so-called Serbian Liberation Army, Afghani Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, and Saudi Ossama Bin Laden. Husseini can justly be credited for being a visionary Islamic firebrand and one of the founders of the Muslim resistance to the British-French, later US, colonial/imperial/economic occupation and exploitation of the Muslim Arab world. 

Husseini was at the forefront of Islamic militancy and ìterrorismî directed against the British/French/US occupation. Hassan el Banna formed the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt in 1928. The Muslim Brotherhood had links to the Grand Mufti and worked with him in Palestine, sending volunteers in support of the Palestinian uprisings in 1936, 1939, and during the 1948 war. The Muslim Brotherhood sought to establish Muslim states based on the Sharia, Islamic law, and the Caliphate system of political rule, wherein each Islamic state would be ruled by a Caliph. Islam is ìcreed and state, book and sword, and a way of life.î In Pakistan, Syed Abdul Ala Maududi founded the Jamaat Islami movement with the goal of establishing Muslim theocratic states based on Koranic law. Egyptian Sayed Qutb of the Muslim Brotherhood continued the movement after World War II. The Muslim Brotherhood had offshoots: the Egyptian Islamic Jihad and Hamas. Haj Amin el Husseini, the Muslim Brotherhood, Jamaat Islami, Islamic Jihad, all form the roots and historical background for the emergence of the Al Quaeda network, the mujahedeen of Afghanistan, and Ossama Bin Laden. Ayatollah Khomeini and Bosnian Muslim leader Alija Izetbegovic would be influenced by the anti-secular, anti-Western, radical Muslim nationalist movements. In his book The Islamic Declaration, (Islamska Deklaracija, 1970; republished, 1990), Izetbegovic rejected the secular conception of an Islamic state espoused by Kemal Ataturk. Izetbegovic sought to create an Islamic state based in the Sharia, a state where religion would not be separate from the state, i.e., an Islamic theocratic state. Izebegovic established close links to Ossama Bin Laden and al-Qeada and invited mujadedeen forces to join the Bosnian Muslim Army. Izetbegovic later would give Ossama Bin laden a special Bosnian passport and the mujahedeen ìfreedom fightersî would receive Bosnian citizenship and passports. One of the hijackers of the second attack on the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, possessed a Bosnian passport. 

Yasser Arafat was introduced to Mufti and the Mufti would subsequently become the role model and mentor for Arafat. In biographies of Arafat, whose real name is Mohammed el Husseini, the Mufti is stated to be a ìdistant relativeî of Arafat, although this claim has been denied as well. For two years, beginning at the age of 16, Arafat worked for the Mufti and his covert terrorist network and organization, helping to smuggle and buy weapons in the war against Jewish settlers of Palestine. Sheik Hassan Abu Saud, the mufti of al-Shafaria, was worked with the Mufti. The Grand Mufti was a precursor of both the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and of the Palestinian national struggle and movement to maintain a Palestinian state. The terrorism, fanaticism, and ruthlessness of that movement reflect the enduring legacy and influence of the Grand Mufti. 

Grand Mufti (middle), with 
notorious Croat NAZI Andrija 
Artukovic (left) and Mile 
Budak (right). 

At the 1921 Cairo Conference, Britain and France divided up the Arab lands to suit their colonial/imperialist objectives by forming spheres of influence, in a region formerly ruled by Muslim Turkey. In the Sykes-Picot Treaty, negotiated by Sir Mark Sykes and Charles Picot, these British-French colonial spheres were formally established. Since 1875 when Britain gained the Suez Canal, the Middle East was regarded as a key strategic region in safeguarding naval routes in the British colonial empire.. The British/French created Jordan under Emir Abdullah and installed King Faisal in Iraq. Syria was placed under French control. The Balfour Declaration was endorsed. The Islamic Arab Middle East was placed under British/French imperial/colonial occupation/control. The British had occupied Palestine since 1917. On July 7, 1922, the League of Nations approved the British Mandate which had the goal of settling Muslim Arab Palestine with European Jewish settlers. 

The Mufti instigated and organized Muslim riots against Palestinian Jews in 1920, 1921, 1929, and 1936. In 1921, the Muft organized the fedayeen, Muslim suicide squads. Following the 1936 riots, fearing imprisonment, he fled to Lebanon. In 1939, the Mufti established his headquarters in Baghdad, Iraq, where he set up a ìpolitical departmentî that maintained ties to Germany and Italy. Germany sought to create a Berlin-Baghdad Axis and instigated a pro-Nazi coup. Iraqi General Rashid Ali el Gailani, a militant Muslim nationalist, and the Golden Square, a group of pro-Nazi Iraqi officers, took over the Iraqi government. The Mufti sent representatives to Berlin and a letter to Adolf Hitler. In a reply by German State Secretary Freiherr von Weizsaecker, the Mufti was told that ìthe Fuehrer received your letter dated January 20thÖHe took great interest in what you wrote him about the national struggle of the ArabsÖ Germany Ö is ready to cooperate with you and to give you all possible military and financial helpÖ Germany is prepared to deliver to you immediately military material.î Abwehr, German intelligence, established contacts with the Mufti at this time. 

Nazi Germany sent arms and aircraft to the Muftiís forces in Iraq but the British were able to reoccupy Iraq, forcing the Mufti and el Gailani to flee to Teheran. The Mufti then flew to either Afghanistan or Turkey ìwhere he is known to have many friendsî. From there he arrived in Albania and on October 24 he reached southern Italy. On October 27, 1941, the Mufti arrived in Rome. The Mufti would subsequently play a major role in organizing Muslim support for Nazism in Europe. 

Grand Mufti and Heinrich 
Himmler. 

On May 9, 1941, the Mufti broadcast a fatwa announcing a jihad, an Islamic holy war, against Britain and he urged every Muslim to join in the struggle against the ìgreatest foe of Islamî: ìI invite all my Muslim brothers throughout the whole world to join in the holy war for AllahÖto preserve Islam, your independence and your lands from English aggression.î The Mufti envisioned a vast Arab-Muslim union which would unite Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Palestine, Trans-Jordan, and Egypt with Germany and Italy creating a Pan-Muslim/Arab Bloc of countries. 

In December, 1931, the Grand Mufti organized an All-Islamic Conference in Jerusalem. This would be the first time the Mufti would come in contact with Bosnian Muslim political and religious leaders. Present at the Muftiís All Islamic Conference were Bosnian Muslim leaderÝ Mehmed Spaho, the president of the Yugoslavian Muslim Organization or JMO, Uzeiraga Hadzihasanovic, and hadzi-Mujaga Merhemic. The Mufti was elected president of the Conference. 

Franz Reichert, the director of the Palestine branch of the Deutsches Nachrichten Buro (German News Bureau) from 1933 to 1938, established the first contacts between Nazi Germany and Muslim leaders in the Middle East. The Mufti approached representatives of the Nazi regime and sought cooperation on July 21,1937, when he visited the German Consul in Jerusalem. He later sent an agent and personal representative to Berlin for discussions with Nazi leaders. 

SS Obergruppenfuehrer Reinhard Heydrich was second in command to Heinrich Himmler in the SS hierarchy and was the chief of the Reich Security Head Office (Reichssicherheitshauptamt,RSHA) and was the head of the Sicherheitsdienst (SD), the SS Security Service. In Septemper, 1937, Heydrich sent two SS officers, SS Hauptscharfuehrer Adolf Eichmann and SS Oberscharfuehrer Herbert Hagen on a mission to Palestine, one of the main objectives being to establish contact with the Grand Mufti. During this period Husseini received financial and military aid and supplies from Nazi Germany and fascist Italy. 

Grand Mufti reviewing Bosnian Muslim 13th Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS "Handzar" with SS Brigadefurher and Generalmajor of the Waffen SS Karl Gustav Sauberzweig circa 1943. 

After meeting Hitler and Ribbentrop in Berlin in 1941, the Mufti was approached by Gottlob Berger, head of the SS Main Office in control of recruiting, and by Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler, who made him a part of the SS apparatus. In May, 1943, the Mufti was moved to the SS main office where he participated in the recruiting of Muslims in the Balkans, the USSR, the Middle East, and North Africa. The Grand Mufti was instrumental in the organization and formation of many Muslim units and formations in the Waffen SS and Wehrmacht. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims fought for Nazi Germany in the following formations and units:Ý Two Bosnian Muslim Waffen SS Divisions, an Albanian Waffen SS Division in Kosovo-Metohija and Western Macedonia, the 21st Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS ìSkanderbegî, a Muslim SS self-defense regiment in the Rashka (Sandzak) region of Serbia, the Arab Legion (Arabisches Freiheitskorps), the Arab Brigade, the Ostmusselmanische SS-Regiment, the Ostturkischen Waffen Verband der SS made up of Turkistanis, the Waffengruppe der-SS Krim, formations consisting of Chechen Muslims from Chechnya,Ý and a Tatar Regiment der-SS made up of Crimean Tatars, and other Muslim formations in the Waffen SS and Wehrmacht, in Bosnia-Hercegovina, the Balkans, North Africa, Nazi-occupied areas of the Soviet Union, and the Middle East. 

The SS Muslim State: The Nazi Protectorate of Bosnia-Hercegovina 

On April 10, 1941, Slavko Kvaternik proclaimed the creation of the Independent State of Croatia, Nezavisna Drzava Hrvatska, NDH, a Great or Greater Croatia, Velika Hrvatska, following the German invasion and occupation of Yugoslavia. Ironically, Croat and Muslim propaganda and policy sought to create for their respective nationalities what they accused the Serbs of seeking, Greater Croatia and Greater Muslim Bosnia. The NDH consisted of the territories of Croatia, Bosnia-Hercegovina, and parts of Serbia and was a Nazi-fascist puppet state created by Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini, and ruled by the Ustashi (ìinsurgentsî), Croatian Catholic nationalists and Bosnian Muslims. The Vatican-supported NDH embarked upon a massive and systematic program of genocide and ethnic cleansing against the Serbian Orthodox populations, the Jewish populations, and the Gypsy or Roma populations. The Ustasha regime doctrine was based on the intolerant fanaticism of Roman Catholicism and the racist precepts of the 19th century Croatian nationalist Ante Starcevic, regarded as the ìfather of his countryî, he called for the extermination of the Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia, ìa race fit for the slaughterhouseî. The President or Poglavnik of the NDH was Ante Pavelic, born in Bosnia-Hercegovina, and the Vice-President, from November, 1941 to April, 1945, was Dzafer Kulenovic, a Bosnian Muslim born in Bihac. From April to November, 1941, the Vice-President had been his brother, Osman Kulenovic. The Minister of the Interior was Andrija Artukovic, born in Ljubuski, Bosnia-Hercegovina. The Minister of Justice was Mirko Puk; Slavko Kvaternik was Minister of the Army; Mile Budak was Minister of Education and Cults. Artukovic and Budak personally received the Grand Mufti in Zagreb when Husseini was en route to Sarajevo to oversee the formation of the Bosnian Muslim Waffen SS Division in 1943. 

The Mufti giving a NAZI salute 
while reviewing Muslim SS troops. The picture is produced from the 
Berliner Illustriete Zeitung. 

Dzafer Kulenovic, the Bosnian Muslim Vice-President of the NDH, had been the president of the Yugoslavian Muslim Organization (JMO, Jugoslovenska Muslimanska Organizacija) and was the political leader of the Bosnian Muslims. Eleven Muslim political leaders of the JMO were invited to be part of the Ustasha NDH parliament in Zagreb. The Ustasha Commissioner for Bosnia-Hercegovina was Bosnian Muslim Hakija Hadzic. The NDH was a Croatian Catholic and Bosnian Muslim state which sought the extermination or genocide of the Serbian Orthodox, Jewish, and Roma populations. The Serbian Orthodox population was referred to as grkoistocnjaka in the NDH and were de-recognized as a nationality group. On April 25, 1941, under Decree Law, No. XXV-33Z, the Serbian Orthodox Cyrillic alphabet was outlawed and Orthodox Serbs were forced to wear a blue band with the letter ìPî for Pravoslavac, Orthodox. In Belovar, Serbs were forced to wear a red armband with the word ìSerbî. The NDH adopted the Nuremberg racial laws and began the incarceration of Jews., who were forced to wear a yellow band with the letter ìZî, for Zidov, Jew. 

On September 25,1941, under decree-law, No. 1528-2101-Z-1941, the creation of ìassembly or work camps for undesirable and dangerous personsî was authorized, which was the basis for the establishment of the Jasenovac concentration camp in Croatia. 

From the beginning of the German invasion of Yugoslavia, the Bosnian Muslims had sought to convince the Germans that Bosnia-Hercegovina should be a Nazi Protectorate, that is, have an autonomous political existence, a Greater Islamic Bosnia, a Greater Muslim State. In 1941, over 100,000 Bosnian Muslim conscripts were available to fight in the military formations of the Third Reich. Roman Catholic Croatian and Bosnian Muslim soldiers were in the Ustasha death squads, the Domobranci (Home Guards), and the Croatian Army. 

Bosnian Muslim soldiers were in the Nazi-Ustasha German-Croatian ìLegionî units, the 369th, 373rd, and 392nd Infantry Divisions. The 369th German-Croatian Infantry Division, formed in 1942, was known as the Vrazja Divizija or Devil Division commanded by Generalleutnant Fritz Neidholt. The 373rd German-Croatian Infantry Division was known as the Tigar Divizija or Tiger Division. The 392nd German-Croatian Infantry Division was known as the Plava Divizija, or Blue Division.Ý The 369th Reinforced Croat Infantry Regiment, made up of Croats and Bosnian Muslims, fought at Stalingrad where it was destroyed. The NDH also sent the Italian-Croat Legion, attached to the Italian 3rd Mobile Division, to the Russian front where it was destroyed during the Don retreat. The 369th Reinforced Infantry Regiment, formed at Varazdin, consisted of three battalions, two from Croatia, one from Sarajevo. The Regiment left Zagreb on July 15, 1941 for the Doellersheim Training Camp near Vienna, Austria. From here, the troops were transferred by railroad to the USSR. The Regiment was deployed on various points on the Russian Front: Krementchug, Jasy, Kirovograd, Permomaysk, Poltava, the Dnieper River, Kharkov, Stalino. On May 15, 1942, the Regiment was deployed on the Voronezh Front. On September 27, the Bosnian Muslim/Croat troops deployed to Stalingrad where they fought to take the city. By February, 1943, the Regiment was totally annihilated and obliterated by the Russian Red Army. The German/Axis forces were encircled and surrendered en masse in Stalingrad. 

The Bosnian Muslims formed purely Muslim formations as well, the most important of which was the Muslim Volunteer Legion, led by Mohammed Hadzieffendic. Other Muslim formations were the Zeleni Kadar/Kader (Green Cadres), Nazi formations created by deserters from the Home Guards (Domobranci), led by Neshad Topcic, the Muslim nationalist group, the Young Muslims (Mladi Muslimani), Huska Miljkovicís Muslim Army, and the Gorazde-Foca milicijas (policing units). Alija Izetbegovic was a key member of the Young Muslims (Mladi Muslimani) group. 

Mufti reviewing Bosnian troops of the Waffen SS. The picture is the reproduction of the front page of the Wiener Illustriete (Vienna Illustrated) of 12th January, 1944. 

The Bosnian Muslim political and religious leaders, known as Muslim autonomists, continued to argue for the establishment of a autonomous Nazi Protectorate for Muslim Bosnia. They wrote Adolf Hitler a Memorandum and interceded with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in Berlin to support their goal of creating a Nazi protectorate for Bosnia. The German commanders in Croatia, the NDH, Foreign Minister Siegfried Kasche and General Edmund Gleise von Horstenau, however, opposed the creation of a Protectorate for Bosnia, supporting instead a unitary NDH. 

On October 15,1942, Bosnian Muslim religious and political leaders sent a delegation from Mostar to a meeting in Rome with the Grand Mufti and Benito Mussolini, who sought to gain influence in the Muslim countries and who assumed the title of ìProtector of Islamî. The Bosnian Muslim delegation consisted of the grand mufti of Mostar, Omer Dzabic, Ibrahim Fejic, hadzi-Ahmed Karabeg, and Oman Sehic. The goal of the delegation was to convince Mussolini to sponsor a Fascist Protectorate for Bosnia-Hercegovina, an Italian-sponsored Greater Islamic State, like the Greater Albania made up of Kosovo and Western Macedonia, which Italy did sponsor. A Fascist Protectorate for Bosnia, however, did not result. 

The Bosnian Muslim leadership remained determined to secure political autonomy for Bosnia-Hercegovina by interceding with the Grand Mufti to use his influence to create a Protectorate By 1943, the Mufti and the Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler became convinced that the Bosnian Muslims could be organized in Nazi formations to advance the objectives of the Third Reich and of Islam. Himmler became a sponsor of the Muslim autonomists, the Greater Muslim Bosnia ideology, and their movement to achieve autonomy for Muslim Bosnia. Bosnian Muslim Reis-el-Ulema Hafiz Mohammed Pandza was a key recruiter for the division and was himself a prominent Muslim autonomist, a key proponent of the Great or Greater Muslim State of Bosnia, even though the Serbian Orthodox were the largest population in Bosnia.Ý Himmler explained how he decided to form the Handzar Division as follows: 

I decided to propose to the Fuehrer that we establish a Muslim Bosnian Division. Many believed the notion to be so novel that they scoffed at it Ö Such is the fate of all new ideas. I was told, ìYouíre ruining the formation of the Croatian stateî and ìNo one will volunteerîÖ. Germany and the Reich have been friends of Islam for two centuries, owing not to expediency but to friendly conviction. We have the same goals. 

Bosnian Muslim Swastika 
patch. 

Himmler wanted to re-establish the continuity with the Austro-Hungarian Habsburg Empire, which had formed Bosnian Muslim military formations. Himmler sent the Mufti to Zagreb and to Sarajevo to prepare for the formation of the Bosnian Muslim units. Himmlerís SS representative in the NDH, Konstantin Kammerhofer, was told to begin recruiting a Bosnian Muslim Waffen SS Division of 26,000 men, which if realized, would make it the largest of all the SS Divisions. 

In forming the Bosnian Muslim Waffen SS Division, Himmler overruled the objections of the Pavelic regime, which considered such formations and infringement on the sovereignty of the NDH. Himmler, as the second most powerful leader in the Third Reich after Hitler, was able to create a de facto Protectorate for Bosnia. He wanted to create an ìSS recruiting zoneî, an SS State administration in northeastern Bosnia to ìrestore orderî. Two Bosnian Muslim Waffen SS Divisions would be created by 1944 to serve this purpose. 

Genocide in Bosnia-Hercegovina 

On July 22,1941, Mile Budak declared that the goal of the NDH was to create a Croat Catholic and Bosnian Muslim state by the extermination of foreign elements, which were Orthodox Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies (Roma). His statement is as follows:Ý ìThe basis for the Ustasha movement is religion. For minorities such as Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies, we have three million bullets.î He emphasized in a speech on July 6,1941, that the Bosnian Muslims were to be an integral part of the NDH: The Croatian state is Christian. It is also a Moslem state where our people are of the Mohammedan religion. Orthodox churches and synagogues were plundered and destroyed and Serbian Orthodox priests and Jewish rabbis were murdered. 

On August 14,1941, Ante Pavelic, a ìBosnianî by birth, in a speech in Vukovar, in Srem, announced the official policy of the NDH: 

This is now the Ustashi and Independent State of Croatia, it must be cleansed of Serbs and Jews. There is no room for any of them here. Not a stone upon a stone will remain of what once belonged to them. 

Pavelicís speech and the law passed in Srem were published in the Ustasha Hrvatski Narod newspaper of August 15 and 16,1941. 

Himmler observing Bosnian 
Muslim troops. 

In 1941, Pavelic declared:The Jews will be liquidated within a very short time. Following the Wannsee Conference of January 20,1942, where the ìFinal Solution to the Jewish Questionî was formulated, the German regime proposed through SS Sturmbannfuehrer Hans Helm that the Croats transfer Jewish prisoners to German camps in the East. Eugen Dido Kvaternik, chief of the NDH security services, agreed that the NDH would arrest the Jews, take them to railheads, and pay the Germans 30 Reichsmarks per person for the cost of transport to the extermination camps in the east. The Germans agreed that the property of the Jews would go to the NDH government.. 

SS Haupsturmfuehrer Franz Abromeit was sent to supervise the deportations to Auschwitz-Birkenau (Oswiecim-Brzezina). From August 13-20,1942,5,500 Jews from the NDH were transported to Auschwitz of five trains from the NDH concentration camps at Tenje and Loborgrad and from Zagreb and Sarajevo. Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler was on a state visit to Zagreb in May, 1943 when two trains on May 5 and 10 transported 1,150 Jews to Auschwitz. 

The largest concentration camp in Bosnia was the Kruscica camp near Travnik, established in April-May, 1941, where many of Bosniaís Jews were killed. 

On February 26, 1942, NDH Interior Minister Andrija Artukovic, gave a speech before the NDH Parliament or Sabor in Zagreb in which he claimed the Jewish question had been settled in the NDH: 

The Croatian people, having re-established their independent state of Croatia, could not do otherwise but to clean off the poisonous damagers and insatiable parasites -Jews, Communists, Freemasons. The independent state of Croatia, as an Ustashi state...settled the so-called Jewish question with a decisive and healthy grasp. 

ÝThe Serbian Orthodox population was the largest ethnic group n Bosnia-Hercegovina.ÝAccording to the 1931 Yugoslav census, out of a total population of 2,487,652, 40.92% were Serbian Orthodox, 36.64% were Muslim, and 22.44% were Roman Catholic Croats. The total Jewish population of Bosnia-Hercegovina was approximately 14,000 in 1941, 10,500 of whom lived in Sarajevo. In the 1931 census, there were 73,000 Yugoslav Jews; in 1941,there were 80,000 Jews, including over 4,000 Jewish refugees from Germany, Austria, and other countries. The Jewish population was broken down as follows:Ý 60% were Ashkenazic and 40% were Sephardic. Due to the Serbian Orthodox policy of fostering multi-ethnic and religious diversity and religious and ethnic tolerance, interwar Yugoslavia had a thriving and vibrant Jewish community. German-occupied Serbia had a population of 16,000 Jews. The NDH had a total population of 40,000 Jews, 11,000 of whom lived in Zagreb. 

On April 16, German forces occupied Sarajevo and with local Bosnian Muslims, looted and destroyed the Sephardic synagogue. 

Entire Serbian Orthodox and Jewish communities in the Sarajevo region were destroyed and Serbian, Jewish, and Roma, men, women, and children were massacred by Bosnian Muslims and Croats. Numerous massacres occurred in the Bosnian towns of Bihac, Brcko, and Doboj. Even the Germans began protesting the bestiality and brutality of these massacres against Orthodox Serbs, Jews, and Roma. Serbian Orthodox churches and Jewish synagogues were plundered and destroyedÝ and Serbian Orthodox priests and rabbis were tortured and brutally murdered. 

A large percentage of the Bosnian Serbian, Jewish, and Roma communities was deported between September and November,1941, to Jasenovac, and Djakovo, and the Loborgrad camp for women from the Kruscica camp, located south of Zenica and Travnik in central Bosnia. From the Kruscica concentration camp, which functioned as a collection and transit camp, Orthodox Serbs, Roma, and Jews, mostly from Sarajevo, were transported to the northern extermination camps of the NDH, Jasenovac, Loborgrad, Stara Gradiska. Survivors were later transferred to Auschwitz where they were gassed. Those who remained alive in the NDH concentration camps were later transferred to Auschwitz-Birkenau. 

Bosnia-Hercegovina during World War II 

ÝIn April, 1943, the Grand Mufti came to Sarajevo, where he was greeted by cheering crowds and where he was photographed on the balcony of the presidency building with Bosnian Muslim leaders, to organize the formation of the Muslim SS Division. Husseini met with prominent Bosnian Muslim leaders Uzeiraga Hadzihasanovic and hadzi-Mujaga Merhemic and spoke in the Begova Djamija or Beg Mosque, exhorting Muslims to join the Waffen SS.Ý Bosnian Muslim muftis and imams, such as Mustafa and Halim Malkoc, harangued Muslims in front of mosques to volunteer to join the proposed Muslim Waffen SS Division. 

The Bosnian Muslims formed two Nazi SS Divisions during World War II, the 13th Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS ìHandzarî (or ìHandscharî in German) from the Turkish hancher, ìdaggerî, from Arabic khangar, ìdaggerî, and the 23rd Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS ìKamaî, from Turkish kama, ìdagger, dirkî. During the war, Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler, the ìarchitect of the Holocaustî, reviewed the Handzar Division in a German newsreel in 1943 while the division was being formed and trained in Silesia, at the Neuhammer Waffen SS Training Camp in Germany. The Bosnian Muslims had approximately 20,000-25,000 men in the Waffen SS and police, roughly 4% of their total population, one of the highest ratios of membership in the Nazi ranks as a percentage of total population during the war. 

The Schutzstaffel or SS, meaning ìprotective rankî or ìdefensive squadronî in German, was a branch of the German National Socialist Workerís Party (National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei),the NSDAP,or Nazi party. The SS was originally formed in 1925 as an elite bodyguard to Hitler and the other Nazi leaders and was a part of the SA or Sturmabteilung (ìstorm troopersî in German) which was headed by Ernst Roehm. In 1929,Himmler became the leader of the SS. On June 30,1934, the ìNight of the Long Knivesî (ìdie Nacht der langen Messerî), Himmlerís SS troops executed Roehm and the top leaders of the SA, destroying the power of the SA while making the SS the key organization in the Nazi Party. The SS was a complex evolving organization divided into the Allgemeine (General) Group, and the Waffen (Armed) Group. The Waffen SS, established in 1940, was the combat wing of the SS. The International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, which tried war criminals after the war, declared the SS a criminal organization and every individual member of the SS to be a war criminal guilty of ìplanning and carrying out crimes against humanity.î 

Each member of the SS was supposed to represent the paragon of Nazi racial purity and had to demonstrate a pure Aryan ancestry since 1750. The Race and Settlement Office (Rasseund Siedlungshauptampt) headed by Richard Darre investigated prospective members for racial purity. The two Bosnian Muslim Waffen SS Divisions, Handzar and Kama, were radical departures from the racial theories heretofore applied by the SS. Before Handzar, SS members had been either German or Germanic, that is, Aryan or Nordic, the herrenvolk or herrenmensch (the master race), and were Christians. Thus, inclusion of the Slavic Muslims representedÝ a radical departure for the SS at that time, although Bosnian Muslim leaders argued that they were of Gothic, not Slavic, origins. 

The Bosnian Muslim troops in the 13th Waffen SS Gebirgs Division Handzar and the several thousand in the 23rd Waffen SS Gebirgs Division ìKamaî wore a field-green fez, while officers wore a red or maroon fez. On the fez itself appeared the Totenkopf (Deathís Head) insignia of the SS and the Hoheitszeichen (a white or silver eagle and the Nazi swastika). While Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, Kemal Pasha, had outlawed the fez in 1925 for Turkey in the Hat Law, the Bosnian Muslims, continued to wear the fez. 

The Muslim Handzar and Kama Divisions were organized on the model of the Bosnian Muslim regiments of the Austro-Hungarian Army. The divisional names are derived from the Turkish words ìhancherî and ìkamaî, which in Turkish mean ìdaggerî, were symbolic of Islam and Islamic military/political power and the Islamic state. The Turkish word ìhancherî is derived from the Arabic word ìkhangarî, ìdaggerî. The handzar and kama were usually curved Turkish daggers which the Muslim Ottoman Turkish Zaptiehs or police customarily carried as weapons when Bosnia was under Turkish Ottoman rule. Thus, the names of the divisions were meant to revive the Islamic historical traditions of the Bosnian Muslims as the rulers and masters (begs or aghas) of Bosnia-Hercegovina over the non-Muslim rayah or untermenschen or mistmenschen, the subhumans, Orthodox Serb Christians, Jews, and Roma. This was the meaning and symbolic significance of the names ìhandzarî and ìkamaî. Usually the Waffen SS Divisions were named after heroic local political or military leaders. The Bosnian Muslims lacked any historical figures in their history. 

While the official, final designation of the Handzar or Handschar Division was 13th Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS (the 13th Armed Mountain Division of the SS), the Division was known by other names during its formation stages,when it was under the control of SS Standartenfuehrer Herbert von Obwurzer: Croat SS Volunteer Division (Kroatische SS Freiwilligen Division), SS Division ìBosnien-Herzegowinaî(SS Div.BH), Muselmanen Division (Muslim Division), 13.SS-Bosniaken-Gebirgs-Division, Bosnisch-Herzegowinische SS Gebirgsdivision ìKroatienî. 

These two Muslim SS Divisions were conceived as the armed forces of the de facto Nazi protectorate which the Muslims sought to create for Bosnia-Hercegovina, a Greater Islamic State, Greater Muslim Bosnia, Juden frei and Serbien frei. Adolf Hitler ordered the creation of the Handzar Division of February 10,1943.Ý The Handzar Division would be commanded by SS Brigadefuehrer and Generalmajor of the Waffen SS, Karl-Gustav Sauberzweig, a decorated Prussian World War I veteran who had been a Colonel in the German Army. At its peak strength by the end of 1943, the division would consist of 21,065 men, approximately 18,000 of whom were Muslims, making it the third largest of the approximately 40 SS Divisions formed during the war. 

In June, 1944,Ý Sauberzweig was promoted to Generalleutnant and assumed command of the IX SS Mountain Corps. SS Brigadefuehrer and Generalmajor of the Waffen SS Desiderius Hampel replaced him as commander of the Handzar Division. 

The Division had at least nine Bosnian Muslim officers, the highest ranking of whom was SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Hussein Biscevic-Beg, who had been a Muslim officer in the Austro-Hungarian Army when Bosnia was under occupation. Initially, the Handzar Division was formed around the core of the Muslim Volunteer Legion, led by Mohammed Hadzieffendic, which was close to divisional strength itself. There were approximately 300 Albanian Muslim troops in the Handzar division primarily from Kosovo-Metohija in Regiment 28, I/28. These Albanian Muslims would in 1944 be transferred to the 21st Waffen Gebirgs Division ìSkanderbegî to occupy Kosovo and Western Macedonia. Albanian Muslim squad leader Nazir Hodic was a prominent member of Handzar. Albanian Muslim Ajdin Mahmutovic was seventeen when he joined the Handzar SS Division: ìI was only seventeen years old when I joined the SS. I found the physical training to be quite easy.î 

Kama Division 

Heinrich Himmler sought to create two Bosnian Muslim SS Divisions and two Albanian Muslim SS Divisions for Kosovo and Western Macedonia. In a May 22. 1944 letter to Artur Phleps, Himmler stated: 

My goal is clear: The creation of two territorial corps, one in Bosnia, the other in Albania. These two corps, with the Division ëPrinz Eugen,í as an army of five SS mountain divisions Ö are the goal for 1944. 

Adolf Hitler approved the formation of the second Bosnian Muslim Waffen SS Division, 23rd Waffen Gebirgs Division der SSÝ ìKamaî, on May 28,1944, although transfers and recruitments for the cadre personnel had been begun on June 10.The objective was to recruit a Waffen SS Division of over 19,000 troops but by September 10,1944,the number of men in the still forming division was 126 officers, 374 NCOs, and 3,293 men, 3,793 men in all. The Kama Division was commanded by SS Standartenfuehrer Helmut Raithel, who had earlier commanded the 28th Regiment of the Handzar Division. The Kama Division was formed and trained in the Bacska/Bachka region, formerly part of Yugoslavia, at that time annexed by Hungary. The region for the initial formation of the division was in the area between the Sava, Bosna, and Speca rivers. Later, the division was transferred to the Bacska region of the Vojvodina region of Serbia. The Kama SS Division was made up of Bosnian Muslim and German troops. Fredo Gensicke, a Reichdeutsche SS sergeant who was transferred to the Kama Division on July 20,1944, described the Bosnian Muslim troops in Kama as follows: 

There were forever complications with the Bosnian soldiers. ..On the other hand, there were those Muslims so fanatical in their religion that one could get a knife stuck in the back if you would twist yourÝÝ head around, forcing the tassel on the Fez hat to move around. 

The subsequent advance of the Russian Red Army and the retreat of the German forces in Yugoslavia forced the Germans to disband the Kama Division by September-October, 1944, after a roughly five month existence. The Kama Division saw little if any actual combat and came too late in the war to have a significant impact on the outcome. 

Handzar Division 

In January, 1944, the Mufti made a second visit to and spent three days with the Handzar Division, which was departing from Germany for Bosnia by rail. In a speech to the Division, he made the following declaration of principles which was to guide not only Bosnian Muslims, but all Muslims throughout the world: 

This division of Bosnian Muslims established with the help of Greater Germany, is an example to Muslims in all countries. There is no other deliverance for them from imperialistic oppression than hard fighting to preserve their homes and faith. Many common interests exist between the Islamic world and Greater Germany, and those make cooperation a matter of course. The Reich is fighting against the same enemies who 
robbed the Muslims of their countries and suppressed their faith in Asia, Africa, and Europe. 

Germany is the only Great Power which has never attacked any Islamic country. Further, National- Socialist Germany is fighting against world Jewry. The Koran says: ìYou will find that the Jews are the worst enemies of the Muslims.î There are also considerable similarities between Islamic principles and those of National-Socialism, namely in the affirmation of struggle and fellowship, in stressing leadership, in the idea of order, in the high valuation of work. All this brings our ideologies close together and facilitates cooperation. I am happy to see in this division a visible and practical expression of both ideologies. 

Husseini referred to the Bosnian Muslims as the ìcream of Islamî and in a speech to the imams in the Handzar Division, explained why the Muslim/Arab world should support the Axis/Nazi Germany: 

Friendship and collaboration between two peoples must be built on a firm foundation. The necessary ingredients here are common spiritual and material interests as well as the same ideals. The relationship between the Muslims and the Germans is built on this foundation. Never in its history has Germany attacked a Muslim nation. Germany battles world Jewry, Islamís principal enemy. Germany also battles England and its allies, who have persecuted millions of Muslims, as well as Bolshevism, which subjugates forty million Muslims and threatens the Islamic faith in other lands. Any one of these arguments would be enough of a foundation for a friendly relationship between two peoplesÖ. My enemyís enemy is my friend. 

You, my Bosnian Muslims, are the first Islamic division, and serve as an example of the active collaboration between Germany and the Muslims. I Ö wish you much success in your holy mission. 

Husejin Dzozo, a key imam in Handzar, wrote a letter to Himmler thanking him for creating an imam school, for increased bread rations, and for Himmlerís donations to Bosnian Muslim families of the Divisionís members: 

These deeds signify the great benevolence for us Muslims and for Bosnia in general. I therefore consider it my duty to extend our thanks to the Reichsfuehrer SS in the names of the divisionís imams as well as in the names of the hundreds of thousands of Bosniaís poor in I pledge that we are prepared to lay down our lives in battle for the great leader AdolfÝ Hitler and the New Europe. 

The imams in Handzar all spoke Arabic and argued that Bosnia belonged racially to the Germanic world, but spiritually to the Arab world, maintaining the argument that the Bosnian Muslims were of Gothic, that is Germanic/Nordic/Aryan origins, even though they spoke a Slavic language, Serbo-Croatian. Each battalion and regimental staff was assigned an imam. The imams organized the Jumah, Islamic prayer services, and the celebrations of the Islamic holidays. Every month on Friday afternoon, each member of Handzar was allowed to take part in a mass Jumah service. The imams washed the bodies of Muslims who had died in combat according to Muslim custom.Ý Himmler stated that the imams were the ìideological teachers in the battalions. 

Imam Dzozo outlined his goals for the Bosnian Muslim SS soldier as follows: 

Bosniaís best sons are serving in the SSÖAfter victory is achieved, a new, important task must be completed---the implementation of the New OrderÖ. Through the Versailles-Diktat, Europe was thrust into a totally senseless foundation, and under the name of democracy, Jews and Freemasons played key roles in political and societal lifeÖ.It will not be easy to liberate Europe from these enemies, but the SS man shall build a better future for Europe. 

After the Islamic Ramadan holiday, a Bairam celebration was conducted at which time Imam Abdulah Muhasilovic spoke to the troops: 

The worldís Muslims are engaged in a terrible life-or-death struggle. Today, a war of enormous magnitude is being waged; a war as humanity has never before experienced. The entire world has divided itself into two camps. One stands under the leadership of the Jews. About whom Allah says in the Koran, ìThey are your enemy and Allahís enemy.î And that is the English, Americans, and Bolsheviks, who fight against faith, against Allah, against morality, and a just order. 
On the other side stands National Socialist Germany with its allies, under the leadership of Adolf Hitler, who fight for Allah, faith, morality, and a fairer and more righteous order in the world, as well as for a fairer distribution of all goods that Allah has produced for all people. 

The Mufti expressed his support for Japan, sending Emperor Hirohito a message which praised Japan as a ìchampion of the liberation of the Asiatic peoples from the yoke of the British and Jewish capitalist.î In a broadcast of September 20,1944, he declared: 

We desire victory for Germany and Japan Ö.We can expect nothing from the Allies who are controlled by world Jewry. 

On November 11, 1943, over Radio Bari, the Mufti ìmy peopleî to fight the British and the Jews to the death: 

If America and England win the war the Jews will dominate the world. 

On March 1. 1944, the Mufti attacked American policy in the Middle East in a radio broadcast from Berlin: 

No one ever thought that 140,000 Americans would become tools in Jewish handsÖHow would the Americans dare to Judaize Palestine?ÖThe wicked American intentions towards the Arabs are now clear, and there remain no doubts that they are endeavoring to establish a Jewish empire in the Arab world. 

The Donauzeitung (The Danube Times) newspaper of December 31, 1942 reported that the Mufti had donated over 240,000 Kuna, the currency of the NDH regime, to the Muslim charity organization in Sarajevo from German government sources. Himmler donated 100,000 Reichsmarks. The SS bought clothing which was donated to the Merhamed welfage organization, a Muslim charity. 

In the spring of 1944, in a German radio broadcast from Zittau, Germany, the Mufti issued a call to Bosnian and Yugoslav Muslims to hold Islamic prayer services for seven days to pray that the German military forces may achieve success. 

The Bosnian Muslim Handzar and Kama Divisions fought mainly against Orthodox Serbs, who made up the bulk of the guerrilla and resistance movements, and who were associated with the enemies of the Third Reich, Communism and England, or as Heinrich Himmler termed it, the ì common Jewish-Anglo-Bolshevik enemyî. On March 1,1944, the Grand Mufti issued from Berlin the following call to all Muslims: ìKill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. Allah is with you.î Moreover, the Mufti called upon Bosnian Muslims to ìtake revenge and to punishî Bosnian Serb Orthodox Christians. Numerous eyewitness accounts testified that the Handzar Division committed the ìworst atrocities against the Serbian population.î In a photograph of troops of the Division, members are seen reading the pamphlet Islam und Judentum (Islam and Jewry), which explained the Nazi position on the Jewish Question and how it related to Muslims.These were prepared from the Muftiís schools and training centers in Germany the Dresden school for Muslims in the Waffen SS, and the Goettingen school for Muslims in the German Wehrmacht. 

Heinrich Himmler was determined to create the two Bosnian Muslim Waffen SS Divisions, although he met with opposition from the NDH regime and from sources within the SS itself. In a letter to Konstantin Kammerhofer, his SS representative in the NDH, he urged that ìstrong stepsî be taken to convince the NDH regime that is was supposed to be a puppet regime:Ý ìI expect to receive, by August 1, 1943, your report that the division, at a strength of about 26,000 men, is completely ready.î Himmler ordered Gottlob Berger to send Kammerhofer two million Reichsmarks to fund the recruiting effort for the Handzar division. Unlike most SS officials, Himmler was convinced of the fighting ability of the Bosnian Muslims, partly from his understanding of the role of the Bosnian Muslims as soldiers in the Austro-Hungarian Imperial Army before and during World War I and his belief that Islam was an ideal religion for a soldier. Himmler stated to Joseph Goebbels that he hadÝ ìnothing against Islam because it educates the men in this Division for me and promises them heaven if they fight and are killed in action; a very practical and attractive religion for soldiers!î Himmlerís policy of using Islam as a bulwark against Orthodox Serbia and Orthodox Russia would later be the policy of Zbiniew Brzezinski, Madeleine Albright, the Pentagon, and the CIA. Ossama Bin Laden and the mujahedeen forces in Afghanistan would be armed, trained, and supplied by the US government. This policy would then be applied in the Balkans. Like Hitler, Mussolini, and Himmler, the US policy was to use the Bosnian and Albanian Muslims as a bulwark against the Serbian Orthodox populations. Like Himmlerís policy, the US policy was divide and conquer, manipulate ethnic and religious groups to attack and kill each other so that a foreign military power can occupy the region, whether it is the Waffen SS or NATO. Historically, the dynamics are identical. 

The Bosnian Muslim troops in the Waffen SS Divisions were accorded the same privileges they had enjoyed in the Imperial Austro-Hungarian Army: special rations and the observance of Islamic religious rites. Each battalion in the Divisions had an Imam and each regiment a Mullah. Following the 1878 occupation of Bosnia-Hercegovina by the Austro-Hungarian Empire, four infantry regiments were recruited from the Muslim population: the Bosnia-Hercegovina Regiment No. 1, recruited around Sarajevo; the Regiment No. 2, recruited around Banja Luka; the Regiment No.3, recruited around Tuzla; and, the Regiment No.4, recruited around Mostar. Following the outbreak of World War I, these Muslim regiments in the Austro-Hungarian Imperial Army would be thrust against the Serbian Army. The Handzar and Kama Divisions were modeled on the earlier Austro-Hungarian Muslim regiments. As Gerald Reitlinger explained in The SS: Alibi of a Nation:Ý ìThese Moslems were the traditional enemies of the Christian Serbs, and in 1941 their religious zeal had urged them to join in the massacres of Serbs...As pillage was followed by discipline, the energy of the Mujos was canalised into the Waffen SS. The Mujos were organised on the lines of the Bosnian regiments of the old Imperial Austrian army, with officers and even N.C.O.s of German race, but they wore the Turkish fez with their SS runes and ...each battalion had an Imam.î 

On June 23,1943,Himmler prepared a special SS oath for the Bosnian Muslim troops which read as follows: 

I swear to the Fuehrer, Adolf Hitler, as Supreme Commander of the German Armed Forces, to be loyal and brave. I swear to the Fuehrer and to the leaders whom he may designate, obedience unto death. 

Himmler included a clause pledging the Muslims to swear to ìalways be loyalî to the NDH and to Ante Pavelic, which was meant to prevent any conflict between Muslims and Croats and the NDH regime, which opposed the formation of the Division. The Handzar and Kama Divisions were listed as ìKroatische No.1 and No.2î respectively to appease the Ustasha NDH regime. Himmler initially envisioned a division made up entirely of Muslims. Sauberzweig stated that ìover 90% of the divisionís soldiers were Muslimsî on November 5, 1943. Himmler had to compromise on this issue and allowed Croat troops to join the division. The estimate of Roman Catholic Croats in the division ranged from ì300 or soî to 2,800. After a visit to Zagreb on May 5, 1943, Himmler stipulated that the ratio of Roman Catholics to Muslims ìwas not to exceed 1:10.î The divisions were Croat in name only, that is, nominally. Some German officers even wore the Ustasha checkerboard symbol, but Muslim leaders and the troops in the division perceived the divisions as Bosnian Muslim. 

Berger ordered the Croatian government to release all the Muslim NCOs and enlisted troops in the NDH formations for service in the Handzar Division. The Muslims were to be released from the I Ustasha Brigade and the 9th Infantry Regiment of the Croatian Army.Ý This information from the Waffen SS files is significant because it demonstrates that Bosnian Muslims were integral parts of the Ustaha formations and NDH military forces, formations and units that were engaged in the mass murder and ethnic cleansing of Bosnian Orthodox Serbs. Importantly, it disproves the propaganda position that the Bosnian Muslims were ìvictimsî and did not participate in the genocide against the Serbian Orthodox populations. The Bosnian Muslims played an integral and essential role in the extermination of Bosnian Serbs, Jews, and Roma. 

In a 1943 report prepared by the Serbian Eastern Orthodox Diocese for the US and Canada, the following description of the Bosnian Muslim role in the massacres appeared: 

The behavior of the Muslims was traditionally treacherous. As always, they were in the camp of those who were momentarily in power. More than 95% of Muslims joined the Ustashi and participated very actively in the massacre of the Serbs, as, for instance, in the city of Mostar, where great numbers of killings were done personally by Huremovich, a Muslim. ÖThe Ustasha terror began in Mostar. The Ustashi, the majority of them local Mohammedans, are arresting, looting and shipping off Serbs or killing them and throwing their bodies in the Neretva RiverÖThey are throwing Serbs alive into chasms and are burning whole families locked in their homesÖOutside of Zagreb the strongest Ustasha hotbed is SarajevoÖThe Muslims committed unbelievable barbarities for they murdered women and children even with scissors. 

General Draza Mihailovich described the Muslim massacres as follows: 

Entire districts were devastated by the Muslims, The Drina River carried many bodies from one bank to the other. 

The propaganda position that the Bosnian Muslims were innocent ìvictimsî and had no complicity in the genocide against Bosnian Serbs was developed after World War II to maintain the Communist policy of ìbrotherhood and unityî and to gain patronage with the Muslim/Arab countries The post-war Yugoslav Communist dictatorship painted an erroneous, inaccurate, and false picture of Islam to gain favor and economic/political advantages with Muslim/Arab countries. But all the evidence proves that the Bosnian Muslims participated actively in the genocide against the Orthodox Serbian population and were not ìvictimsî at all. 

Herbert von Obwurzer recruited Albanian Muslims from Kosovo-Metohija and Sandzak for the Division. The I/2 battalion consisted of approximately 300 ethnic Albanian Muslims. Gottlob Berger stated that ìwhen the division returned to Croatia, additional volunteers would be recruited, and the Albanians would be returned to their homeland, where they would form the cadre for an Albanian division.îÝ The Albanian division would be the 21st Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS ìSkanderbegî, consisting primarily of Albanian Muslims from Kosovo-Metohija. Himmler planned to form a second Albanian SS Division but the war ended before this could be done. The Waffen SS recruiting of Albanian Muslims in the Greater Albanian state, which included Kosovo and Western Macedonia was objected to by Hermann Neubacher, who was the German Plenipotentiary in Albania because they violated the sovereignty of Albania. 

When Handzar occupied eastern and northern Bosnia in the spring and summer of 1944, to ìrestore orderî, it assumed control over its own munitions, without consulting NDH officials, placed civilian authority under Muslim control, and ìliquidatedî organs of the NDH Ustasha regime. There was a direct challenge and conflict to and negation of the sovereignty of the NDH. 

On August 6,1943, Himmler wrote the following letter to his representative in the NDH, SS Gruppenfuehrer and Generalleutnant der Polizei Konstantin Kammerhofer and to Artur Phleps, commander of the Vth SS Mountain Corps outlining guidelines for the enlistment of Muslims in the Waffen SS and police: 

All Moslem members of the Waffen SS and police are to be afforded the undeniable right of their religious demands never to touch pork, pork sausages nor to drink alcohol...I hold all commanders...and other SS officers, responsible for the most scrupulous and loyal respect for this privilege especially granted to the Muslims. They have answered the call of the Moslem chiefs and have come to us out of hatred for the common Jewish-Anglo-Bolshevik enemy and through respect and fidelity for he who they respect above all, the Fuehrer, Adolf Hitler... There will no longer be the least discussion about the special rights afforded to the Moslems in these circles. 

Heil Hitler 
(signed) H. Himmler 

The Handzar and Kama Divisions, stationed in the Bosnian towns of Brcko, Bijeljina, Tuzla, Gradacac, and Zvornik, engaged in a policy termed by the Nazis as ìpacificationî of the population, which consisted of genocide and ethnic cleansing ofÝ Serbs and Jews in eastern and northern Bosnia. Sauberzweig wrote that the objective of Handzar was as follows: The division is to liberate Bosnia. The Muslim population is bound to this land.î The Muslim SS Divisions followed a policy of ethnic cleansing (ciscenje, in Serbo-Croat), ìcleansing the land of bandits and ethnic enemiesî from a directive for the divisions. In the Brcko and Bijeljina regions of northern and eastern Bosnia, units of the Handzar Division ìbutchered everyone not wearing a fezî (ìklali su sve sto nije nosilo fesî) based on eyewitness accounts. The Muslim Waffen SS troops, raped, pillaged, and massacred Orthodox Serbs and Jews without regard for age or sex. The Divisions were exhorted in their 1944 directives to ìexterminate enemies, exterminate the community, but leave intact the houses, land and effects of the enemies.î Unarmed Serbs and Jews, not murdered in the first great wave of genocide, were massacred and ethnically cleansed in Rogatica, Vlasenica, Srebrenica, and Visegrad. Ethnically pure Muslim settlements were created (ìcistih narodnih naseljaî in Serbo-Croat, from a 1944 report). 

The two Muslim SS Divisions were assisted in their ìpacificationî program by the Nazi formation, Zeleni Kadar (ìGreen Cadresî in Serbo-Croat), consisting of at least 6,000 Bosnian Muslim deserters from the Ustasha Domobranci. The Zeleni Kadar was led by Neshad Topcic, a rabidly pro-Nazi Muslim who advocated the extermi


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## Cougar (Jan 23, 2005)

woa...


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## Erich (Jan 23, 2005)

2 totally worthless W-SS divisions and incidently W-SS in name only. They were slaughtered by the Soviets. More of Himmlers SS fanatasy....


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## plan_D (Jan 23, 2005)

Damn it, Adler! I wanted to look smart by knowing of them.  
They were worthless, ill-trained and ill-equipped. The reason Himmler created them was that they were supposed to be loyal. Himmler created a lot of new W-SS Divisions late war, when he should have just re-equipped the old experienced ones. 

There was also a British SS Division, with a whole 15 men made up of PoWs. Sweet gig, they never went to battle. They just bummed around in France and had parties. Purely propaganda.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 24, 2005)

Erich said:


> 2 totally worthless W-SS divisions and incidently W-SS in name only. They were slaughtered by the Soviets. More of Himmlers SS fanatasy....



You are 100% correct my friend. It is still neat to see how much some of these people who were Nazi puppets affected much of what is happening in the world today. It is quite crazy.

Here is some info on some other SS Divisions that were not German. This is kind of a long post but very interesting.

11.SS Freiwilliegen-Panzergrenadier Division "Nordland Division" 



> Established in February 1943, this was an attempt by the Germans to set up an international SS Division manned and commanded by foriegn volunteers. Although the elite "Wiking" Division had a considerable number of foriegn troops in its ranks, the senior NCO's and officiers were preodominantly German. In "Nordland", the Germans hoped to utilise a far greater proportion of foriegn volunteer senior ranks. Considerable use was made of the remnants of the disbanded Germanic legions in staffing the division, and it certainly carried the widest range of nationalities to be found in any single Waffen-SS division. By the end of the war. Danes, Dutch, Norwegians, Estonians, Finns, French, Swedish, Swiss and even British volunteers had either served in the division or been attached to it. By the autumn of 1943 the division was training in Croatia, and in January 1944 was judged to be ready for combat. It was attached to Army Group North on the Eastern Front in an unsucessful attempt to prevent the Red Army from breaking the siege of Leningrad. It also took part in the Battle of Narva (February to August 1944, in Estonia), where it suffered heavy casualties (so many volunteer units saw action at Narva that it became known as the 'Battle of the European SS'). In September 1944, over a period of just four days, the division undertook a forced march from Narva to Riga, where its arrival prevented the encirclement of the German 18th Army by Soviet forces. As the Red Army's advance continued, "Nordland" slowly withdrew into the Courland Pocket, fighting doggedly all the way, from where it was evacuated to Germany in early 1945. It saw heavy fighting around Danzig, Stettin and Stargard, before becoming part of the force defending Berlin. The division was finally destroyed in the battle for the city in April/May 1945.
> 
> "Nordland" was a full-strength, well-equipped unit which included a powerful armoured element: SS-Panzer Abteilung 11 "Herman von Salza". Overall, it aquitted itself well in action and was one of the better non-German SS divisions. This is reflected in the total of 30 Knight's Crosses awarded to its members, ranking it fifth in the table of Waffen-SS units in terms of Knight's Cross awards. The division was initially commanded by SS-Obergruppenführer Fritz von Scholz, holder of the Swords and Oakleaves, who was killed in action on 28 July 1944 near Narva. Command then passed to SS-Brigadeführer Joachim Ziegler, who fell in Berlin on 2 May 1945. Soldiers of the division wore a special collar patch showing a so-called called curved swatiska (Sonderrad). The members of SS-Panzer Grenadier Regiment 23 wore the title "Norge", members of the SS-Panzer Grenadier Regiment 24 the title "Danmark", and members of SS- Panzer Abteilung 11 the title "Herman von Salza". All other members of the division wore the title "Nordland". Generally speaking, soldiers of the division also wore their own particular national arm shield.
> www.wiking.org/topics/nordland.htm



5.SS Panzerdivision "Wiking"



> Initially established in May 1940 as SS Division (motorisierte) Germania, the title was altered only days later to SS Division (motorisierte) Wiking, being formed around a core of Reichdeutsche personnel fron the Germania Regiment, who had been transferred wholesale from the SS-Verfügungsdivision. To this core was added the two existing Germanic volunteer regiments Nordland and Westland. The first truly international division of the Waffen-SS, it numbered Germans (the majority), Dutch, Danes, Norwegians, Finns, Walloons, and Flemings among its personnel, together with a smattering of Volkdeutsche from the Balkans. The division first went into action in the southern sector of the Eastern Front, as far as possible from their countrymen fighting in the volunteer legions around Leningrad. It took part in the drive through th Caucausus and quickly earned itself a reputation for efficiency and dependability under fire. In late 1942, it was formed as a panzergrenadier division and played an important role in the ill-fated German armoured offensive at Kursk in July 1943. Although it suffered heavy losses, it achieved an excellent reputation, even earning the grudging respect of the Soviets in several battle reports for its pugnacious fighting spirit (Soviet commanders were always concerned to learn that thier troops were facing the soldier of the Wiking Division). In October 1943 the division was reformed yet again, and emerged as a fully fledged panzer division. The significance of this should not be under estimated. Considering the disdain shown for many of the foreign volunteer units by their German masters, the fact that a predominantly 'foriegn' division should be accorded panzer division status and equipped with the latest tanks was a tribute to the regard in which it was held. The 'Wikinger' were fast attaining an elite status to equal the best of the original Waffen-SS divisions. In February 1944, Wiking took part in the furious fighting around Cherkassy and suffered heavy losses, though its morale and espirit de corps remained high. Withdrawn into Poland, it took part in the defensive battles around Warsaw in the autumn of 1944 before moving south to assist in the attempt to relieve Budapest. When this failed the division was withdrawn into Austria, where it fought in the final battles to defend Vienna in 1945. The qualities of the Wiking Division as a combat unit are ably testified to by the number of Knights Crosses of the Iron Cross awarded to its soldiers. A total of 54 such gallantry awards were made, a figure surpassed only by the 73 of the Das Reich Division. The division was first commanded by SS-Obergruppenführer Felix Steiner, one of the finest and most highly decorated soldiers of the Waffen-SS, who went on to command III Panzer Corps and the 11th Panzer Army. Steiner was followed by SS-Obergruppenführer Herbert Otto Gille, who was awarded the Swords, Oakleaves and Diamonds to the Knight's Cross for both his own, and his division's achievements in battle. The third commander was SS-Standartenführer Johannes M¸hlenkamp, who had already been awarded the Knight's Cross as commander of the division's panzer regiment, and was subsequently awarded the Oakleaves in recognition of his distinguished leadership of the division as a whole. Karl Ullrich, SS-Standartenführer and former Totenkopf Pioniere commander, was the last to command Wiking; he kept the divsion a formidible and equally high-moralled fighting force to the last. To the end the men of the division fought like tigers. In defeat they retained their pride in having given service above and beyond the call of duty, and to this day the phenomenal espirit de corps engendered within this elite division lives on through a thriving veterans organisation. The Wiking Division was without a doubt the finest of all the SS volunteer formations, and indeed of of the best units in the entire German armed forces.
> http://www.wiking.org/topics/wikdata.htm



The Freiwillige Legion Nowegen from Norway (which I was not able to found much info on it)

Finnishes Freiwillige Battalion der Waffen SS from Finland



> During the early months of 1941 Finland felt again the hard threat of Soviet Union. Operation Barbarossa was about to launch and Germany saw Finland as a potential ally. The German idea of a Finnish volunteer unit was felt as an ideal political manoeuvre both in Finland and Germany: it would be the mortgage of the mutual co-operation in the future.
> 
> Before the 6th of December 1917 Finland was an autonomous part of Russia. Volunteer Finns had formed the Royal Prussian Jäger-Battalion No. 27 (Königlich Preussisches Jägerbataillon Nr 27) in Germany between 1916 and 1918 because military training was not given to Finns in Finland by the Russian Army. This battalion was the basis of the Finnish Defence Forces. It was decided to follow the steps of the first Finnish volunteer battalion in German Armed Forces.
> 
> ...



Britische FreiKorps from England (as stated pretty much just propaganda)



> Of all foreigners in the ranks of the German Wehrmacht during WWII, British and Commonwealth troops were by far one of the most obscure groups to be found. A select few British and Commonwealth troops are known to have served independently in various German Waffen-SS units, and an actual legion unit was formed consisting of British volunteers, although its history, as we shall see, was very limited.
> 
> The initial idea of a British Legion was first conceived by John Amery, son of Leopold Stennet Amery, Great Britain's former Minister for India, and a member of Churchill's wartime cabinet. Amery was in Paris at the time of France's surrender in 1940 and may have been inspired by the advent of the formation of the Vichy Legion des Volontaires Francais being allowed by Germany. Once the war against Russia commenced, Amery hoped to be allowed to poll the UK Commonwealth PoW camps for recruits for a Brigade of some 1,500 British and Commonwealth volunteers to fight against Soviet Russia. Amery had published in Paris in 1943 an Anti-Bolshevist monograph called "L'Angleterre et l'Europe par John Amery" (England and Europe by John Amery), in which he espoused the basic tenets of pro-Fascist, anti-Soviet rhetoric fashionable in German-occupied Europe at the time. Originally, German intention was to use the legion in a propaganda role, but Amery had different ideas, wishing for it to become a comabt brigade of 1,500 ex-British soldiers.
> 
> ...



Legion Freies Indien from India



> Agitation for the end of British rule in India had existed for decades prior to the outbreak of the Second World War. Therefore it was logical for the Axis powers during WWII to attempt to capitalize on anti-British sentiments by attempting to recruit a military force from disaffected Indian prisoners-of war captured while serving with the British Commonwealth forces in the North African campaign.
> 
> Italy was not the first in this field, but their efforts were comparatively short-lived and therefore will be considered first. On 10th May 1942 the Italian Army established a Ragruppamento Centri Militari, a special unit composed of foreign military personnel, ex-prisoners-of-war, foreign nationals living in Italy and Italians who had been resident abroad, with the intention of using them for intelligence gathering and sabotage operations behind enemy lines.[1]
> 
> ...


Here are some other ones that I do not have too much info on:

France
French Volunteer Grenadier Assualt Regiment

Franzosische-SS-Freiwilligen-Strumbrigade 

SS-Waffen-Grenadier-Brigade "Charlemagne"

33.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS "Charlemagen" (Franzisische Nr.1)

There was also SS units from the United States (hard to belive, huh. I dont have much info on it and most likely they were small in numbers like the Britische Freikorps and were pretty much just propaganda), several Arab Nations, Belgium, Bulgaria, Denmark, Estonia, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland, and even the USSR (basically Russians who wanted an end to the Soviet regime). Most of these units as you stated were pretty much worthless. With the exception of the Wicking Division (which was a fine fighting unit) they were all just a fantasy of Hitler and Himmer. Sorry for the long post but I thought it might be interesting.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 24, 2005)

An Indian SS legion? Hmm, I didn't know about that one.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 24, 2005)

plan_D said:


> Damn it, Adler! I wanted to look smart by knowing of them.
> They were worthless, ill-trained and ill-equipped. The reason Himmler created them was that they were supposed to be loyal. Himmler created a lot of new W-SS Divisions late war, when he should have just re-equipped the old experienced ones.
> 
> There was also a British SS Division, with a whole 15 men made up of PoWs. Sweet gig, they never went to battle. They just bummed around in France and had parties. Purely propaganda.



Sorry did not want to steel your thunder. 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 24, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> An Indian SS legion? Hmm, I didn't know about that one.



Pretty wiered huh! Yeah they had units all over the world. Whether they actually volunteer or were involuntarialy volunteerd are 2 different things.


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## Erich (Jan 24, 2005)

besides the Luftwaffe and KM the W-SS was and still is pretty high on my WW 2 listings of interests.

The 1-12th divisions were pretty much top notch with the Nordland volunteer made up of quite a few non Germanic's. The 13th Hanschar was nothing. the 14th Ukranian did what they could but were beaten to a pulp by the Soviets. the 15th Latvian also in the sme league with many eager volunteer's but again destroyed by soviet forces. the 16th on the Italien front, the 17th destroyed at Normandie, refitted and did defend the fortress cities around Metz and finally surrendered in the alps. Horst Wessel the 18th not much as well as the Latvian 19th which again slaughtered by the Russians. 20-21st worthless. 22nd along with the 8th Cavalry Div slaughtered at Budapest. The 23rd a long career with the 5th and 11th divisions the understrength division fought hard on the Ost front. The 23rd Croatian, 24th, 25th 26th in name only were all worth nothing. The 27th Langemarck an understrength division compose of former Flemish brigade volunteers a very brave unit on the Ost front as wll as the the Wallonien Brigade-28th Div. 29th nothing, but then reformed as a unit in Italy again nothing as well as the 30th and the 31st of traingin school cadre. 32nd named after Hitlers birthday-ha ! the 33rd Charlemagne compose of French volunteers after their Brigade one of the best volunteer units, ending in the street of Berlin knocking out Soviet tanks with Panzerfausts. landstorm Nederland the 34th wasmore of a police unit and had no history. 35th police-0. 38th Dirlewanger where all the survivors captured by the Russians were shot-what a joke, by looking at the ugly commander of the unit/a penal unit. 37th Lutzow was a joke made up of remnants, destroyed by the Soviers. 38th Niebelungen actually had a brief history and fought in the Alps, made up of W-SS schol cadets, had a Sturmgeschutze unit and fought agasint US forces before surrendering in the area of the alp-Donau.

of course you guys know all the popular W-SS divisions are covered by a wealth of books.

v/r

E ♪


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## Erich (Jan 24, 2005)

ya know we should probably have the moderating team move this part of the W-SS to a seperate thread richtig ? nothing to do with avaition fighter.

the W SS thread could be interesting.....

E ~


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 24, 2005)

I agree this has deffinatly gotten off course, but still very interesting.


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## plan_D (Jan 24, 2005)

I'll create one about 'Allies' fighting for Axis. 'Cos I'm reading about Burma, there's stuff about Indians and Burmese fighting for the Japs...AS well.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 25, 2005)

It deffinatly is an interesting topic.


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## shepsan (Mar 16, 2017)

Lightning Guy said:


> I'm not sure it would. The single tail probably offered a greater surface area. It's interesting to note that some of the last versions of the B-24, the PB4Y2 and the B-24N featured a single tail in place of the twin fins of the earlier models.


That single tail was one of the PB4Y2's most identifiable characteristics


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