# Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise



## Aggie08 (Nov 11, 2007)

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced | the Daily Mail

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
By MATTHEW HICKLEY - More by this author »

Last updated at 00:13am on 10th November 2007

When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed. 

At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders. 

That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory. 

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board. 

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier. 

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy. 

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat. 

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age. 

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon. 

The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines. 

And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it. 

According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines. 

It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence. 

Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard". 

The People's Liberation Army Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching vessels. 

Its 13 Song Class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors. 

Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War. 

He said: "It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans. 

"It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan." 

In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time. 
-------------------------------
Picture caption: Uninvited guest: A Chinese Song Class submarine, like the one that sufaced by the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk


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## Konigstiger205 (Nov 11, 2007)

I bet that was a hell of a surprise for them...but its scary to see how far China progressed with its military technology...


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## david johnson (Nov 11, 2007)

i've already heard from an anit-sub tech vet that this story was a hoax. i wonder.

dj


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## T4.H (Nov 11, 2007)

HOAX
Like often, a small true story behind...The rest is only a big fake...
the chinese are bad boys...the chinese are bad boys...fear the chinese...the chinese are bad boys...fear the read flood...blablabla...
I have something found...interesting....
Perhaps we should ask FLYBOY... 

Showdown: Why China Wants War With The United States

Our Appetite For Cheap Chinese Goods Will Spell Our Defeat
Posted By: *FlyBoy* on 2/24/2007 3:17:54 PM
"China is a sickly, sleeping giant. But when she awakens the world will tremble. -Napoleon Bonaparte, 1803 

China now has the fastest growing economy in the world. America's $200 billion dollar annual trade deficit with China is the major factor fueling that economy. As our dependence on cheaply-made Chinese goods increases, so does the size of China's military. That nation's accelerating military build up is reminiscent of those of Germany and Japan prior to World War II.

The Chinese government claims that their defense budget has grown by 15 percent every year since 1990. However, the Rand Corp. issued a 2005 report claiming that China actually spends 40 to 70 percent more in military expenses than they report. The report stated that China spends about $69 billion annually. China is now only second to the U.S. in the percentage of GDP spent on the military.

In China's Liaoning Province, forced labor factories abound. The laborers are being held in Chinese prisons, many of them are actually political prisoners. Several Chinese factories are run by the military, which profits directly from Chinese-made goods sold in the U.S.

China has produced 23 new submarines in the last four years alone. Even more troubling to the tiny nation of Taiwan is the fact that the Chinese Navy is now building dozens of amphibious ships.

*Last October, a Chinese Song-class submarine stalked the USS Kitty Hawk battle group. The submarine was not detected until it surfaced, well within torpedo range.*

Richard Fisher of the International Assessment and Strategy Center said of the incident: "Given the long range of new Chinese sub-launched anti-ship missiles and those purchased from Russia, this incident is very serious. It will likely happen again, only because Chinese submarine captains of 40 to 50 new modern submarines entering their navy will want to test their mettle against the 7th Fleet."

A little over a month ago, the Chinese military destroyed an old weather satellite with an extremely advanced surface to air missile. The satellite was smaller than the average-sized refrigerator and orbited 530 miles above the earth. The weather satellite traveled within the same orbit as do U.S. spy satellites.

Equally disturbing as China's apparent preparation for war is that nation's growing relationship with Iran. Last year, China entered into a deal with Iran to develop their Yadavaran oil fields. China's SINOPEC will produce 180,000 barrels a day and purchase 10 million tons of liquefied natural gas annually for the next 25 years.

The following business dealings currently take place between China and Iran:
-over 100 Chinese companies do business with Iran
-Chinese contracting firms are now building airports in six Iranian cities
-China already receives 14 percent of their oil imports from Iran

Given China's relationship with Iran and the growing amount of oil which China will import from that nation to fuel their economy, the longer the West puts off our inevitable show-down with Iran--the more dangerous that confrontation will become. A well-armed China will not sit idly by and watch as U.S. bombs fall on Iranian oil fields and pipelines.

As droves of American companies decide to relocate their factories to China, we are slowly surrendering to our inevitable enemy. As our manufacturing base disappears, so does our ability to mass produce the weapons of war.

At the beginning of World War II, factories across the country began to re-tool and switched from producing consumer goods to military weapons. Because of the war effort, no American automobiles were made from 1942-1945. Those factories were instead turning out jeeps, half-tracks, and tanks.

Once Congress declared war, assembly line workers who had been building washing machines, were suddenly producing artillery shells. Factories which were turning-out headlights for automobiles, were now fabricating turret canopies for B-17 bombers.

During World War II, the Ford Motor Co. produced B-24 Liberator bombers at their Ypsilanti, MI plant. They also built jeeps, tanks, half-tracked personnel carriers, and armored cars in their Richmond, CA plant. In contrast to that patriotic contribution, Ford announced last year that they are closing three U.S. plants and moving them to Mexico. To allow an exodus of American factories is not only devastating to our middle class, it represents a strategic nightmare.

When China's aggression becomes a frightening reality and the only thing produced in this country is pornography...How will we defend ourselves?" (Dave Gibson/AmericanDaily.com 02/20/07)
Source Link(s) 1


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## syscom3 (Nov 11, 2007)

I think its also a hoax. The same story seems to pop up from time to time.

I do remember back in the early 80's, a soviet sub did surface next to a carrier off of Japan and nearly collided with it.


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## T4.H (Nov 11, 2007)

I'm not sure...

But I think bouth HOAX are written by the same author...

Edit Error:Not this link 
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/modern/chinese-sub-pops-up-middle-u-s-navy-exercise-10348.html

This link:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/modern/israelis-blew-apart-syrian-nuclear-cache-9471.html

Some phrases are the same...same style...story build up by the same modules...etc...


Correction:
Different authors...
Not the same one...


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## syscom3 (Nov 11, 2007)

T4.H said:


> I'm not sure...
> 
> But I think bouth HOAX are written by the same author...
> 
> ...



How did the author know that sub was not tracked? Was he i the CIC? How does he know what was going on in the subs?


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## david johnson (Nov 11, 2007)

'Even more troubling to the tiny nation of Taiwan is the fact that the Chinese Navy is now building dozens of amphibious ships.'

building them does not equal the ability to sail them and their 'cargo' safely to taiwan, japan, or to whomever else is on the hit list.

china could easily have a two front war pop up. russia will not stand by idle if the red chinese start to be winners...that would be of NO benefit to mother russia. the chinese 'western front' will be w/russia and the 'other front' will be with the rest of asia. 

i can't think of anyone over there who really wants the reds to run the show.

dj


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## T4.H (Nov 11, 2007)

**** error...wrong link...

Of course, this link...

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/modern/israelis-blew-apart-syrian-nuclear-cache-9471.html

I just edited my last post...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 11, 2007)

david johnson said:


> i've already heard from an anit-sub tech vet that this story was a hoax. i wonder.
> 
> dj



It is not a hoax. This was even in the Stars and Stripes News Paper and an Admiral Confirmed it. It happened several months ago.


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## Aggie08 (Nov 11, 2007)

Interesting article, T4.H. I hadn't really thought of all the implications of moving our factories outside our borders. Also, I'd say the odds of attacking Iran are pretty good.

How did this Chinese sub not get fired upon once it finally surfaced? Was a dialogue made that quickly? Seems that such a potent threat coming in so close and suddenly would not be taken very well.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 11, 2007)

The Chinese Sub did not make any threatening moves against the Carrier Group. It was in International Waters and therefore had the right to be there. The real question is how did we not know it was there?


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## david johnson (Nov 11, 2007)

'I must humbly and profusely apologize for the China Sub post. I looked at the date of it (today) and assumed Sad it was a new story. THEN, I started checking after I posted it. Come to find out that the story is one year old (same day-Nov 10th), and was reported by CBS. No wonder I couldn't find any other mention of it on the net.

After reading my post closer, I see that no names are mentioned and that there is a lot of supposition. I can only conclude that the writer was under a deadline, so pulled up an old story and did a lot of editing to it.'

the above is from a navy vet friend. at least i know his opinion of it.

dj


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 11, 2007)

As I said it was confirmed by an Admiral. I read it in the Stars in Stripes when it happened. I also believe I read it in the Army Times as well.


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## Aggie08 (Nov 11, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The Chinese Sub did not make any threatening moves against the Carrier Group. It was in International Waters and therefore had the right to be there. The real question is how did we not know it was there?



I assumed that it being there unannounced would have been a hostile enough move to warrant action. And that is somewhat unnerving that the most sophisticated naval equipment couldn't pick it up. They say it made it past several ships of the screen, so it couldn't have been just one man making a mistake or missing it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 11, 2007)

Aggie08 said:


> I assumed that it being there unannounced would have been a hostile enough move to warrant action. And that is somewhat unnerving that the most sophisticated naval equipment couldn't pick it up. They say it made it past several ships of the screen, so it couldn't have been just one man making a mistake or missing it.



In international waters they can go where they want to. We do not own the worlds oceans and they dont have to tell us where they are going and what they are doing. Now if they did something threatening that is a different story.

Just to sink a Chinese Sub because it surfaced near our Carrier would have been an act of war.


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## david johnson (Nov 11, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> As I said it was confirmed by an Admiral. I read it in the Stars in Stripes when it happened. I also believe I read it in the Army Times as well.



i wonder if the news is really a year old as i heard, or from this week??
hmmmm...

dj


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## david johnson (Nov 11, 2007)

'Just to sink a Chinese Sub because it surfaced near our Carrier would have been an act of war.'

yep, can't do that. may all heads remain cool!

dj


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## lastwarrior (Nov 12, 2007)

That was an interesting article. My only question is, how the U.S. did not know that a China sub is right over there? Thank God nothing bad happened.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 12, 2007)

david johnson said:


> i wonder if the news is really a year old as i heard, or from this week??
> hmmmm...
> 
> dj



When I read it in the actually military news paper it was either earlier this year or late last year. I honestly do not remember the time and date.


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## T4.H (Nov 12, 2007)

Adler...
You have several types of hoaxes...

One type is, that you have a true story and the rest is a fake.
Like with the attack on nuclear facilitis in Syria...

Yes, there was a sub, there was the Kitty Hawk...

But something like this...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Is this true or just only a fake?


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## Parmigiano (Nov 12, 2007)

I think we should stay on important points, and the only important point is:
did the 'yellow submarine' actually surfaced undetected in a potentially dangerous situation?

If not, there is nothing worth our time.
If yes, we can speculate about how it happened: 
-because of negligent behavior of the escort?
-because of a bravado kissed by sheer luck?
-because the Chinese has developed tactics or technology that can fool our defenses?
- ......

To me, it looks more a combination of the first 2 reasons.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 12, 2007)

T4.H said:


> Adler...
> You have several types of hoaxes...
> 
> One type is, that you have a true story and the rest is a fake.
> ...



The article that confirmed it was quite some time ago. That I can not tell you.


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## comiso90 (Nov 12, 2007)

Parmigiano said:


> did the 'yellow submarine' actually surfaced undetected in a potentially dangerous situation?
> 
> If not, there is nothing worth our time.
> I



Huh?

The fact that a sub made it through a screen of sub hunters is a HUGE deal. Their intent didn't have to be malicious. 

I cant be so dismissive of a potential enemy.

...

here's a thought. I read that active sonar pinging has been greatly curtailed because researchers believe that the sonar pulses are killing ocean going mammals like whales and dolphins.

In time of conflict, I'm sure the USN would be pinging in active mode... I doubt the Chinese sub could have escaped that.

.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 12, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> ...
> 
> here's a thought. I read that active sonar pinging has been greatly curtailed because researchers believe that the sonar pulses are killing ocean going mammals like whales and dolphins.
> 
> ...



Very true. I did not think of that.


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## Aggie08 (Nov 12, 2007)

Hmm, I had heard that bit before about the whales and such. I hope that's it, if active sonar missed them then something is very wrong.


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## Haztoys (Nov 13, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> Huh?
> 
> The fact that a sub made it through a screen of sub hunters is a HUGE deal.
> 
> .



Or was let that close..

I would not think much could get that close to the US fleet with out them knowing it ...


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## Parmigiano (Nov 13, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> Huh?
> 
> The fact that a sub made it through a screen of sub hunters is a HUGE deal. Their intent didn't have to be malicious.
> 
> ...



Guess there is a misunderstanding here...

If you re-read my post it should be clear that my concept was "if this is a hoax, then it's not worth to discuss it. 
If it is true, then it is worth to understand why it happened"

no dismissal...


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## pbfoot (Nov 13, 2007)

the could sub have been stationary hence silent and the fleet moved over it


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## Theo (Nov 13, 2007)

Didn't I read somewhere that the new supersonic Sizzler antiship missle made by the Russians have made aircraft carriers obsolete?


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## comiso90 (Nov 13, 2007)

Theo said:


> Didn't I read somewhere that the new supersonic Sizzler antiship missle made by the Russians have made aircraft carriers obsolete?



No more than any other cruise missile. 

A coordinated attack is the key to taking out a Carrier group. The defenses are formidable so the have to be overwhelmed.

I'd be more afraid of a fleet of Bear Bombers at extremely long range launching dozens of missiles suplimented by a number of subs launching missiles and perhaps torpedoes.

Chinese Defence Today - 3M-54E (SS-N-27) Anti-Ship Cruise Missile



..


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