# History Channel Dogfights



## Soren (Jan 14, 2008)

Some of you guys have probably already seen this show a couple of times before, but here's three good episodes about WW2:



_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlfOWZHEGNk_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdCm5z2RpI8_

Both manage to escape by flick stalling. Amazing how Richard Candelaria in his flick stalls, spins and manages to hit the 109 when it overshoots! 

Super human Fw-190 pilot, or...

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeFix_i03ZI_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4Lx6gh87Q0_

Me-262 encounter:

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIny8caHMhk_

Enjoy!


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## Thorlifter (Jan 15, 2008)

I hadn't seen the 262 encounter before. Damn, that's a sweet looking plane. Thanks for the post Soren.


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## Erich (Jan 15, 2008)

wonder who the Me 262's were....KG 51 probably. Art's battle sequences are not correct, have talked with him at length about his groups mission this date against Fw's of II.Sturm/JG 300 which did not have that type of formation nor that many Fw's in action on the July date.

D.Bryans sequence is pretty wild and he is a great guy to interview, I should post up my conversation again with him about his Ar 234 kill going after the jet near the Remagen bridge, what a character ! ....... typical pilot jock


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## model299 (Jan 15, 2008)

Erich said:


> wonder who the Me 262's were....KG 51 probably. Art's battle sequences are not correct, have talked with him at length about his groups mission this date against Fw's of II.Sturm/JG 300 which did not have that type of formation nor that many Fw's in action on the July date.



So the eight by eight formation is an "exaggeration" by the show's writers? Still, thanks for posting the links Soren!


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## Erich (Jan 15, 2008)

none of the 3 Sturm Fw gruppen ever flew in formation like that, they flew up to 15 in line across and each staffel, 3 of them flew a wee bit higher than the lead element and slightly behind, the attack on the bombers on the July date was 20 heavy Fw 190A's. what Art saw from his advantage point along with 19 other P-51's of the 325th fg, was a Gefechtsverband of Fw 190's low and in the lead followed higher up by Bf 109G-6 protection gruppe. So it appeared to be a big mass of movement towards the B-17's of which at least 9 were shot down, some 9 Fw 190A's were lost to the P-51's as only 11 returned to their A/F.


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## Soren (Jan 15, 2008)

Roger that Erich.

Candelaria also strikes me as an interesting and warm character, ever had any chance to talk to him ?


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## Udet (Jan 15, 2008)

While i have not seen these History Channel productions i bet my money all they are about is USAAF pilots -and RAF perhaps- shooting down Germans and Japanese at will...if you see one where Luftwaffe veterans are interviewed showing graphics of their 109s, 190s or Me 262s shooting down USAAF/RAF fighters please let me know.


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## Soren (Jan 15, 2008)

Well it's still interesting. Would be nice with some German pilots telling their story as-well, no doubt. But the episodes I linked aren't far off, ofcourse numbers are exaggerated a few times, but these are first hand accounts from real pilots, and on these occasions they sure didn't get all their kills easy, often being closer to being shot down themselves. That having been said I've seen other episodes much less accurately told or explained...

One more, in two bits - was this -47 jock in luck or what ??!:

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zitQJr36si0_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omO5VXOBZ80_


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## comiso90 (Jan 15, 2008)

Udet said:


> While i have not seen these History Channel productions i bet my money all they are about is USAAF pilots -and RAF perhaps- shooting down Germans and Japanese at will...if you see one where Luftwaffe veterans are interviewed showing graphics of their 109s, 190s or Me 262s shooting down USAAF/RAF fighters please let me know.



For the most part you are correct but you shouldn't be dissuaded from watching the show. The History Channel has to pay the bills and the general population doesn't want to see the bad guys lose.

Unfortunately for you, you know better.

Just let go and enjoy the show... even better, buy the DVDs... While the majority of the material is focused on Americans. The stories they have to tell are worth hearing.

.


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## Soren (Jan 15, 2008)

It's just a shame no tv docs are made about the German pilots, they did after-all see the most fighting and scored the most kills of all.


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## Erich (Jan 15, 2008)

because there is not enough first hand coverage via films let alone be able to first hand interview them under camera, most of them do not want that type of interview anyway. Soren no I have not been able to interview that 15th AF fg veteran. I must say that Art was happy to get the actions from the historical point of view correct, that was long after the H.C. came to have him interviewed for his sotry


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## drgondog (Jan 15, 2008)

Erich said:


> none of the 3 Sturm Fw gruppen ever flew in formation like that, they flew up to 15 in line across and each staffel, 3 of them flew a wee bit higher than the lead element and slightly behind, the attack on the bombers on the July date was 20 heavy Fw 190A's. what Art saw from his advantage point along with 19 other P-51's of the 325th fg, was a Gefechtsverband of Fw 190's low and in the lead followed higher up by Bf 109G-6 protection gruppe. So it appeared to be a big mass of movement towards the B-17's of which at least 9 were shot down, some 9 Fw 190A's were lost to the P-51's as only 11 returned to their A/F.



Yep, the History Channel is one sided.. Having said that I have yet to find a worse day for the 8th AF FC in which more than 9 US fighters were downed in combat against the LW in the most advantageous circumstances possible - namely dropping out of cloud cover with altitude advantage and speed against the 4th FG strafing on the deck on August 28, 1944 - and they still gave a good account of themselves..

Contrast that against much heavier losses to LW even with altitude and numerical advantage in late 1943-1945


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## davparlr (Jan 17, 2008)

Soren said:


> It's just a shame no tv docs are made about the German pilots, they did after-all see the most fighting and scored the most kills of all.



I agree whole heartedly, in fact I would love to see Jappanese, Italian, Russian, Finnish, et. al. air combat. While I understand why the emphasis is on US airmen, it still just continues to give the impression that the war was won by US forces alone and all the Axis pilots were just "enemies" (the world in which I grew up). I just think these are great episodes. All we have to do is find someone to dish up the money.

I don't know how I would feel seeing US pilots being shot down. I got a taste of that on the ramming episode, and I kind of felt strangly uncomfortable.  I guess there is a bond between airmen of the same forces, even over decades.


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## Soren (Jan 17, 2008)

I agree with you completely Davparlr. However I must say that I feel the same nomatter what isde the a/c I see shot down is from, the reason being that we're all humans and so there's no difference what country you're from. But in war getting shot at is what you have to expect. Still its always sad uncomfortable to think about that a guy probably got killed in that a/c you're now watching getting shred to pieces.


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## drgondog (Jan 17, 2008)

Soren said:


> I agree with you completely Davparlr. However I must say that I feel the same nomatter what isde the a/c I see shot down is from, the reason being that we're all humans and so there's no difference what country you're from. But in war getting shot at is what you have to expect. Still its always sad uncomfortable to think about that a guy probably got killed in that a/c you're now watching getting shred to pieces.



I have to reflect on another story connected to my father - it's necessarily long and I won't tell it now - but essentially he met a lufthansa pilot coming from Rome to Paris Air Show in 1976 when he was VP Marketing for LTV.

Net - the guy he met he actually shot down on Sep 11, 1994 but claimed only 'Damaged'. As they compared notes it turn out that dad killed his flight leader, his wingman and was chewing on this pilot when German flak zero'd him and killed dad's number 4.

The net is that one of the two had a wife and three kids, the other was a newly wed... and the Lufthansa 109 driver that 'got away' was hit in right thigh and arm (missing bone) before he crash landed. If the flak crews had not been there he would have died.

What started the story is that dad said something cute like Jeesusss C Christ - what happened to your arm" and the German pilot snarled - ond of your G------n Mustang pilots did this during WWII!" To which dad allegedly responded "I was one of those 'SOB's - when did it happen?"

He never thought of German pilots being targets ever again. The two stayed in contact until dad passed away three years later. I wish to hell I knew his name but I don't.

I believe the unit was JG 53 but not sure of squadron.

I know of several similar experiences where the opposing pilots not only quit hating the other but became best friends - after all a fighter pilot is pretty much the same no matter what uniform he wore.


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## Soren (Jan 17, 2008)

A very common occurence Bill, and not just for pilots, even most of the men who fought each other at arms lenght back then now understand each other and have become friends. 

 to them all!


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## davparlr (Jan 17, 2008)

drgondog said:


> I have to reflect on another story connected to my father - it's necessarily long and I won't tell it now - but essentially he met a lufthansa pilot coming from Rome to Paris Air Show in 1976 when he was VP Marketing for LTV.
> 
> Net - the guy he met he actually shot down on Sep 11, 1994 but claimed only 'Damaged'. As they compared notes it turn out that dad killed his flight leader, his wingman and was chewing on this pilot when German flak zero'd him and killed dad's number 4.
> 
> ...



We can multiply this by 25 million, the number of military losses in WWII. Add the civilians and the number is 72 million. So many lives snuffed out. We cannot comprehend this loss to humanity. All because of a few power hungry maniacs and people who followed them who were deceived by circumstance.


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## drgondog (Jan 18, 2008)

Amen - Dave and Soren


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## Erich (Jan 18, 2008)

Bill :

109 units ~ for 11.09.1944

I./JG 300
III./JG 300

I./JG 3

III./JG 4

II./JG 27

III./JG 53

I. and III./JG 76


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## drgondog (Jan 18, 2008)

Erich said:


> Bill :
> 
> 109 units ~ for 11.09.1944
> 
> ...



So far it's down to JG53 and JG3. Somewhere between Klein-Linden and Rechtenbach(k?) is where all this took place. Dad's number 4 was KIA by the same flak batteries. 

Remotely possible it was a stray JG300 ship but not JG27 or 4.


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## renrich (Jan 22, 2008)

Heard first hand a similar story about a US AF former pilot who by chance met a former Soviet pilot who was shot down near the Yalu during the Korean War. They compared notes and discovered that the US pilot was the victor over the Soviet. They spent the evening talking and drinking together.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 22, 2008)

Saw the episode where they talked about the Tuskegee Airmen... Wasnt aware that they knocked down 3 Me 262's in one mission.... Didnt see the whole episode, so Im not sure if they went with the myth about not losing a single bomber to enemy aircraft....


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## orion549 (Jan 22, 2008)

I wish History Channel Canada would start playing the new seasons of Dogfights, they only play the first season I think, and I'm getting bored watching the same fights over and over. Although the F6F episode was on today, and I do love that one. The first Zeke takedown was mint...

Last week was the Bombers episode and they play Guadalcanal and Taffy 3 over and over...


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## Njaco (Jan 22, 2008)

If you check one of the guys who posted those Dogfight episodes on YouTube he has loaded a ton of stuff! Battlefield, Dogfight, on and on.


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## orion549 (Jan 23, 2008)

I always wonder if I'm missing something on those though...I wonder if iTunes has any for download! I'm off to check!

...that didn't turn out at all...


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Jan 23, 2008)

That youtube guy with loads of stuff I think is called GDHouston. He does have a ton of stuff.


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## Njaco (Jan 23, 2008)

Thats him. I could spend weeks going over what he posted. I loved the Battlefield series. Didn't catch them all.


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## davparlr (Jan 23, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> Saw the episode where they talked about the Tuskegee Airmen... Wasnt aware that they knocked down 3 Me 262's in one mission.... Didnt see the whole episode, so Im not sure if they went with the myth about not losing a single bomber to enemy aircraft....



I was watching for that and I don't remember them saying anything to that effect. But I am old and could have missed it.


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## timshatz (Jan 24, 2008)

Is it me or is the History Channel starting to drift to the left? Saw a show last night on the "World After People Are Gone" or something like that. First, is that History? Shouldn't it be over on Discovery Channel? Second, it had that feel that PBS usually has. Also, it's getting into shows that have nothing to do with History (UFOs, Ice Road Truckers, ect).


Maybe it's the new head over there but


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## Erich (Jan 24, 2008)

Tim they most likely are bored silly..............nothing good to broadcast it appears, their track record is really looking quite sad


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## timshatz (Jan 24, 2008)

Erich said:


> Tim they most likely are bored silly..............nothing good to broadcast it appears, their track record is really looking quite sad



I hear ya', there really isn't much new. But even the new stuff seems a little to the left. Tried watching History Center one Sunday morning and the pointy head they had on there started going on about George Bush. Then, they brought out Charlie Rangel and that was about all I could take. It was a show about the draft. 2 minutes of it were interesting, the rest was propaganda.


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## davparlr (Jan 25, 2008)

timshatz said:


> Is it me or is the History Channel starting to drift to the left? Saw a show last night on the "World After People Are Gone" or something like that. First, is that History? Shouldn't it be over on Discovery Channel? Second, it had that feel that PBS usually has. Also, it's getting into shows that have nothing to do with History (UFOs, Ice Road Truckers, ect).
> 
> 
> Maybe it's the new head over there but



History Channel is owned by a joint group including Disney and NBC so you can expect them to try to brainwash the empty headed.

I was a faithful reader of Military History magizine for many years and last year it changed formats and also became left leaning including an aritcle by Rangel. I didn't reup.


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## Lucky13 (Feb 24, 2008)

Second series here in the UK in March....! Yayyy!


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## kool kitty89 (Feb 24, 2008)

The whole writers strike messed up US shows all over the place, so there's not alot of new stuff coming out for a while. Also might explain why some odd programming is on, though I thought the Ice Truckers show was on the Discovery Channel...


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## Lucky13 (Mar 14, 2008)

Am thinking of sending an email to History Channel and ask what the h*ll Ice Road Truckers has to do with history....
Don't want to make it a rant, but strong enough for them to get it, shape up or ship out....any other ideas?
When $$$$ comes does history loose out then etc. etc.


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## comiso90 (Mar 14, 2008)

Lucky13 said:


> Am thinking of sending an email to History Channel and ask what the h*ll Ice Road Truckers has to do with history....
> Don't want to make it a rant, but strong enough for them to get it, shape up or ship out....any other ideas?
> When $$$$ comes does history loose out then etc. etc.



Or the new one about lumber jacks!

I'm ready to cancel!

.


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## Lucky13 (Mar 14, 2008)

We should put an email together all of us and I'll send it to them....I mean..WTF is going on??


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## comiso90 (Mar 14, 2008)

Bottom line is that these reality shows are SUPER cheap to produce....

As long as people watch them they'll make em. It's all about $$$$$$


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## kool kitty89 (Mar 15, 2008)

Back to an earlier comment, as Erich mentioned on another thread ( 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QyELSlHVAA_ 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMyYJx7I4i4_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK4y7M1EDYA_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6Vc3TJXASw_

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icHRPZn7u_g_

There are also quotes from Ernst Udet's WWI experiences here: 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TStRqIsIOh8_


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