# Who was the most decorated WW-II military man ?



## ccheese (Dec 31, 2012)

Audie Murphy is reported as the "most decorated _*combat soldier*_" of WW-II, but was he the most decorated military man of WW-II ?
In addition to the Medal of Honor, Murphy had at least one of every award the U.S. could offer (33 total), including 3 Purple Hearts and awards from Belgium and France.

However, Gen. Douglas MacArthur, while not a "combat soldier", had a chest full of goodies too. Many were theater awards, just for "being there". And, President Roosevelt did award him the MOH...... God knows what for !!

But... who was the U.S. military's most decorated service member ???

Charles


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## buffnut453 (Dec 31, 2012)

Depends how you measure "most decorated". Kiwi Captain Charles Hazlitt Upham has to be up there - he was VC and Bar!

Ooops...just realised you were asking about the most decorated US military man. Well, since this is an international forum I'm going to keep my post and stick up for Capt Upham, an incredibly brave man!


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## Lucky13 (Dec 31, 2012)

VC and Bar? Does that mean VC _twice!?_ 

That's an impressive, eeerrmmmm....don't know if 'collection' is the right word here guys, help me out!


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## RabidAlien (Dec 31, 2012)

Dang. Had to go look up Mr. Upham. Now, does anybody know of any good books about him?


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## herman1rg (Dec 31, 2012)

Three people have been awarded the VC and Bar, the bar representing a second award of the VC. They are: Noel Chavasse and Arthur Martin-Leake, both doctors in the Royal Army Medical Corps, for rescuing wounded under fire; and New Zealander Charles Upham, an infantryman, for combat actions.


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## herman1rg (Dec 31, 2012)

New Zealand Flying Officer Lloyd Trigg has the distinction of being the only serviceman ever awarded a VC on evidence solely provided by the enemy, for an action in which there were no surviving Allied witnesses. The recommendation was made by the captain of the German U-boat U-468 sunk by Trigg's aircraft.


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## buffnut453 (Dec 31, 2012)

VC and Bar means, yes, he was awarded the VC twice...and he survived! According to Wikipedia, he died in 1994.


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## Njaco (Dec 31, 2012)

Would Goering count? Talk about medal-hog......


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 31, 2012)

Don't forget Idi Amin. Claimed to have fought in WW2, he gave himself the VC!


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## stona (Dec 31, 2012)

Njaco said:


> Would Goering count? Talk about medal-hog......



Idi Amin 

Not helping am I......I'll get my coat.

Steve

Edit. I was beaten to it! Great minds etc.


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## Lucky13 (Dec 31, 2012)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Don't forget Idi Amin. Claimed to have fought in WW2, he gave himself the VC!



Are you sure that in his case that VC doesn't mean Vicious C*nt?


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## ccheese (Dec 31, 2012)

When I started this, I was really thinking U.S. service members. However, lets include EVERY service member who fought in WW-II. I think Her Majesty's service gave away VC's like candy. A VC for sinking a U-boat ? Or a MOH for downing five enemy aircraft ? C'mon !!!

Murphy is credited with killing over 280 German soldiers !!! "Dugout Doug" was probably the only recipient of the MOH who really didn't deserve it.

So, who was the most decorated service member of WW-II ??

Edit: According to ask.com (yahoo.com) Audie Murphy was not the most highly decorated. He was the most highly decorated _*combat*_ service member from WWII. COL Robert Howard is considered the most highly decorated service member ever, if you consider number of awards for valor. General Douglas MacArthur is THE most highly decorated service member of all time for sheer number of awards; valor and meritorious. COL Robert Howard is the only person to be nominated three times for the Medal of Honor.


Charles


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## stona (Dec 31, 2012)

ccheese said:


> I think Her Majesty's service gave away VC's like candy. A VC for sinking a U-boat ?
> Charles



Not in WW2. There's more to the story than just sinking a U-Boat.

Trigg's award was posthumous for a start. A very,very brave man.

An awful lot of WW2 VCs were awarded posthumously (82/182) not good odds.They were certainly not handed out like candy. 

Cheers

Steve


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## buffnut453 (Dec 31, 2012)

ccheese said:


> I think Her Majesty's service gave away VC's like candy.



Charles, 

Dunno if you were being:

(a)  Ironic, or
(b) If you missed a "don't" between the "I" and the "think" 

If neither of the above are correct then I find your comment rather offensive. To suggest that the British Commonwealth's highest award for bravery is granted with little merit or justification is, frankly, ridiculous. The US isn't the only country that produces brave men and women! I strongly suggest you read the write-ups for VC winners and then determine whether the medal was awarded "like candy".


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## fubar57 (Dec 31, 2012)

I recall reading an article on the VC(can't remember where) and one of the sentences was as Charles wrote but this was during the origins of the medal, South Africa, Crimea etc.. That all changed for later wars.

Geo


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## stona (Dec 31, 2012)

It was awarded for what some would say were political reasons in Victorian times. Notably at Lucknow and famously at Rorke's Drift.
This was certainly not the case by WWI. Posthumous awards were made possible slightly earlier,1907 I think but haven't checked.

Victoria Crosses are the first award at any investiture and it is worn first in an array of medals. VC are also the first post nominal letters taking precedence over_ all _other awards and orders. Even if a Garter Knight won one he'd be a VC first.

Did you know that one American has one? We don't know his name, he is the unknown soldier from WWI.

Cheers
Steve


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## Lucky13 (Dec 31, 2012)

Don't know if these numbers are correct but, so far awarded:

Victoria Cross: 1,356 
Medal of Honor: 3,476

...and in the short time that the Knights Cross was awarded:

Diamonds: 27
Swords: 160
Oak Leaves: 890
Knight's Cross:7,365

What was the other combatants medals, besides Mannerheim Cross, Hero of the Sovietunion etc...?


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## Edgar Brooks (Dec 31, 2012)

ccheese said:


> I think Her Majesty's service gave away VC's like candy. A VC for sinking a U-boat ? Or a MOH for downing five enemy aircraft ? C'mon !!!


That has to be one of the most offensive things I've seen in a very long time; over the entire fighting forces of Britain and its Commonwealth, 182 VCs were awarded during WWII, of which 29 went to the RAF. Of those 29, only one was a fighter pilot, and 16 received it posthumously (and that includes the one who only sank a U-boat.) If that's giving them away like candy, no wonder everyone was starving during the war.


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## Njaco (Dec 31, 2012)

There were times during the history of the VC and the MoH where the prestige of the award was lost and they were given 'out like candy'. Sorry, but its the truth. Because no other military decoration was authorized during the Civil War, some seemingly less exceptional and notable actions were recognized by a Medal of Honor during that conflict.


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## buffnut453 (Dec 31, 2012)

I will agree that there are some VC and MoH recipients whose actions, at least to our eyes, don't necessarily compare with the actions of other recipients. Equally, there are many who were never recognized despite showing extreme bravery. However, Charles made specific reference to a WWII VC winner and I think we'd all agree that the VC was not given out like candy during that conflict.


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## GrauGeist (Dec 31, 2012)

Hans Rudel was the highest decorated serviceman in the war (for Germany) and the only recipient of the highest order of the Knight's cross: Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds

Here's his list of awards:
Front Flying Clasp of the Luftwaffe (_Frontflugspange_) in Gold and Diamonds with Pennant "2,000"
Honor Goblet of the Luftwaffe (_Ehrenpokal der Luftwaffe_)
Wound Badge (_Verwundetenabzeichen_) in Gold 
Combined Pilots-Observation Badge (_Flugzeugführer und Beobachterabzeichen_) in Gold with Diamonds
German Cross (_Deutsches Kreuz_) in Gold
Iron Cross (_Eisernes Kreuz_) 
Iron Cross 2nd Class (_Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse_)
Iron Cross 1st Class (_Eisernes Kreuz 1. Klasse_)
Hungarian Gold Medal of Bravery
Italian Silver Medal of Military Valor
Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds 
- The Knight's cross is a progressive award, the swords, oak leaves, etc. are added to it in regard to accomplishment with multiple levels of each degree (example: silver oak leaves, golden oak leaves, etc.)


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## tyrodtom (Dec 31, 2012)

You need to read up on Douglas MacArthur, he may not have been a " combat soldier " during WW2, but in earlier times most definitely was .
Was reccomended for the MOH in the occupation of Veracruz in 1913?, and WW1, but didn't receive it either time, but was awarded 7 Silver Stars, 2 wound metals, and various other decorations in WW1. Not hardly the record of a desk jocky.

Another tidbit about MacArthur, his father Arthur MacArthur received the MOH for actions during the Civil War.


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## Lucky13 (Dec 31, 2012)

Had to read up on it myself...

*Air Ministry, 2nd November, 1943.*

The KING has been graciously pleased to confer the VICTORIA CROSS on the undermentioned officer in recognition of most conspicuous bravery: 

_Flying Officer Lloyd Allan TRIGG, D.F.C. (N.Z.413515), Royal New Zealand Air Force (missing, believed killed), No. 200 Squadron.

Flying Officer Trigg had rendered outstanding service on convoy escort and antisubmarine duties. He had completed 46 operational sorties and had invariably displayed skill and courage of a very high order. One day in August 1943, Flying Officer Trigg undertook, as captain and pilot, a patrol in a Liberator although he had not previously made any operational sorties in that type of aircraft. After searching for 8 hours a surfaced U-boat was sighted. Flying Officer Trigg immediately prepared to attack. During the approach, the aircraft received many hits from the submarine's anti-aircraft guns and burst into flames, which quickly enveloped the tail. The moment was critical. Flying Officer Trigg could have broken off the engagement and made a forced landing in the sea. But if he continued the attack, the aircraft would present a "no deflection" target to deadly accurate anti-aircraft fire, and every second spent in the air would increase the extent and intensity of the flames and diminish his chances of survival. There could have been no hesitation or doubt in his mind. He maintained his course in spite of the already precarious condition of his aircraft and executed a masterly attack. Skimming over the U-boat at less than 50 feet with anti-aircraft fire entering his opened bomb doors, Flying Officer Trigg dropped his bombs on and around the U-boat where they exploded with davastating effect. A short distance further on the Liberator dived into the sea with her gallant captain and crew. The U-boat sank within 20 minutes and some of her crew were picked up later in a rubber dinghy that had broken loose from the Liberator. The Battle of the Atlantic has yielded many fine stories of air attacks on underwater craft, but Flying Officer Trigg's exploit stands out as an epic of grim determination and high courage. His was the path of duty that leads to glory.

—Supplement to London Gazette, 29 October 1943, (dated 2 November 1943)_


The Victoria Cross was awarded to Trigg's widow by the Governor General of New Zealand, Sir Cyril Newall, on 28 May 1944.


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## GrauGeist (Dec 31, 2012)

Lucky13 said:


> Had to read up on it myself...


And all that information came from the U-Boat skipper!


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## Edgar Brooks (Jan 1, 2013)

Njaco said:


> There were times during the history of the VC and the MoH where the prestige of the award was lost and they were given 'out like candy'. Sorry, but its the truth. Because no other military decoration was authorized during the Civil War, some seemingly less exceptional and notable actions were recognized by a Medal of Honor during that conflict.


So it's safe to assume that you share your compatriot's bigoted view; there was, in fact, no award, for bravery, for "other ranks," which is why the VC was instituted, making it a classless award. Also, no VC was awarded during the Crimean War, but were all presented, on a single day, by the Queen, after the war was over. I really do think that it's shameful that site administrators are so ready to make ill-judged, and ill-founded, statements, without bothering to check their facts; and, no, there's no need to ban me, because I'm banning myself, since I can't bring myself to read such nastiness.


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## Njaco (Jan 1, 2013)

Bigoted? The one who is bigoted is the one who can't accept the truth that there were times in the 100 year plus history of these medals when they weren't to be awarded. You really need to take off those rose colored glasses if you thought my comment was "bigoted" and nasty. Incredible.

Yes, I do support my fellow Mods.

EDIT: I just checked Charles post and the All-Offended language he used was ....


> I think Her Majesty's service gave away VC's like candy.



THATS bigoted???? Looks more like a question to me.



> "Dugout Doug" was probably the only recipient of the MOH who really didn't deserve it.


 Now, this IS an opinion and - my, my - only names one person out those 3,000+ recipients. 

I'm giving you a few months to ponder the difference.


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## Lucky13 (Jan 1, 2013)

Njaco said:


> EDIT: I just checked Charles post and the All-Offended language he used was ....
> 
> _I think Her Majesty's service gave away VC's like candy._
> 
> THATS bigoted???? Looks more like a question to me.



Chris, my friend, as I refuse to take part in this, at the moment, rather heated discussion, but, for what I learned in school, that's not a question, that's a statement, a question always have a '?', doesn't it?

The title Hero of the Soviet Union (Russian: Герой Советского Союза) was the highest distinction in the Soviet Union, awarded personally or collectively for heroic feats in service to the Soviet state and society...

Total awarded 12,775 

So, this isn't a purely military award then it seem....


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## Njaco (Jan 1, 2013)

Apples and oranges. Regardless, the response by Edgar was out of line - far out of line.


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## meatloaf109 (Jan 1, 2013)

Being a Socialist award, "Hero of The Soviet Union" could be given to just about anyone that the State decided had made a meaningful contribution to the greater good. So a better Borscht recipe could be as valuable as killing a few hundred invading Germans.


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## buffnut453 (Jan 1, 2013)

Chris,

Perhaps my last post (#20) wasn't sufficiently clear. My problem is that the specific inference was that the VC was given out like candy during WWII. You broadened the discussion into earlier periods but this thread was supposed to be about WWII. We can debate the arse out of whether a particular recipient did, or did not, "deserve" a VC or MoH but (again per my post #20) such discussions should, at least, be based on a reading of the actual events and the justification for why the recipient was granted the award. None of that takes away from fact that Charles' "candy" comment was, at best, ill put, don't you think?


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## Lucky13 (Jan 1, 2013)

Understandable I think, as these MoH and VC (at this point) are awarded for things, sorry, heroic acts, that many if not all of us merely dare to dream of doing, when first made it may have been awarded for some actions that we here find odd and don't really agree with (political or not) and which should probably been better awarded with a civilian version of the same, as with these, which I found on the Wiki about the MoH...

*1900s:* Early in the 20th century, the Navy awarded many Medals of Honor for peacetime bravery. For instance, in 1901, John Henry Helms aboard the USS Chicago (CA-14) was awarded the medal for saving the ship's cook from drowning. Seven sailors aboard the USS Iowa (BB-4) were awarded the medal after the ship's boiler exploded on January 25, 1904. _Richard Byrd and Floyd Bennett were awarded the medal after World War I for the exploration of the North Pole. And, Admiral Thomas J. Ryan was awarded the medal for saving a woman from the burning Grand Hotel in Yokohama, Japan, following the 1923 Great Kantō earthquake._ Between 1919 and 1942, the Navy issued two separate versions of the Medal of Honor, one for acts related to combat and one for non-combat bravery.


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## Lucky13 (Jan 1, 2013)

meatloaf109 said:


> _Being a Socialist award, "Hero of The Soviet Union" could be given to just about anyone that the State decided had made a meaningful contribution to the greater good._ So a better Borscht recipe could be as valuable as killing a few hundred invading Germans.



Which I just found out!


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## buffnut453 (Jan 1, 2013)

Undoubtedly, some awards for valour are political in nature. One could argue that O'Hare's MoH for 5 kills in a single mission was done as much to boost morale at home as it was for anything O'Hare actually did in combat. Equally, from a historical perspective, many today would question whether Leefe Robinson's actions in downing a Zeppelin over London in 1916 truly merited Britain's highest award for gallantry. And, as I've said before, there are plenty of brave acts for which the VC was not awarded. The attack on Endau by 36 and 100 Squadrons in late January 1942 is one that immediately springs to my mind - real "Charge of the Light Brigade" stuff, with the men of both units being thrown into a daylight attack in archaic Vildebeest aircraft. I just vehemently disagree with the inference that VCs were given out like candy in WWII.


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## meatloaf109 (Jan 1, 2013)

I did not know about the two seperate versions of the MOH, Thanks for sharing that!
As for the controversy, I believe that Charles expressed his opinions as any American is still free to do. I happen to agree with him about Gen. MacArthur, I think that in that particular case, the award was politically motivated. I don't yet know enough about the Victoria Cross or under what circumstances it has been awarded, but I stand by Charles' right to have and state his opinions.


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## Marcel (Jan 1, 2013)

Sorry discussions sometimes results in mud slinging. On the other hand, if someone would play down my country's pride, I might become unreasonable as well.


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## buffnut453 (Jan 1, 2013)

Meatloaf,

I'm not trying to restrict Charles' right of expression. However, if he's going to make statements like that perhaps he should back it up with evidence? He's been remarkably quiet since that post. I'm more than happy to get into a discussion--without it getting nasty--but let's understand why Charles thinks the VC is such a trivial award that it's given away for nothing. He can express his opinion but let's see the supporting justification and rationale. Is that unreasonable?


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## GrauGeist (Jan 1, 2013)

Also, being an International forum, sometimes certain things may be taken out of context. Everyone has the right to thier opinion as long as it's not mean spirited or an attack.

I have seen comments directed toward my country that could be taken as questionable, but instead looked to the spirit of the discussion/comment.

I would think it's better to find out and discuss why a comment was made the way it was, than jump to conclusions and ruin a good conversation...


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## buffnut453 (Jan 1, 2013)

That's all I'm asking. Let's see the rationale or justification. We can argue the merits or otherwise of individual cases (eg Leefe Robinson or O'Hare) but anyone who's spent more than a few hours on this forum knows that broadbrush statements without supporting data are going to be questioned. I've been harangued for making far less contentious comments than the one Charles made about VC awards. It sticks in my throat because it calls into question the bravery of everyone who received the award.


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## Lucky13 (Jan 1, 2013)

As would anyone! (whooops! Meant as a reply to Marcel's post!) 

As it may be, with this discussion, heated or not, disagreeing as to when a award for bravery should have been given or not, they're all in one way or another heroes and you don't raise heroes, you raise sons and in some cases daughters, some of them have it, some of them don't, it's all there, more or less deep in your heart, your bones, your soul, if you treat them like sons, or daughters, they'll always, one way or another, turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in our own eyes... Even though a hero might not be any braver than the next to you ordinary man, but maybe just those few minutes longer, or just to afraid to run... As for those long gone old heroes of the past, they have not then, not now or ever died, they're only sleeping at the bottom of our mind, waiting for our call, for whenever we have need to call for them, in more than one way, in the past, at the present they represent the finest, the bravest and the purest of wisdom of our race.

I might be wrong....

Also, might be wrong again, but doesn't media use the word hero too easy nowadays and as such, also done the same back then?


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## GrauGeist (Jan 1, 2013)

Well said, Jan...and yes, I do see the word "Hero" being used a little too much in the media these days :/


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## buffnut453 (Jan 1, 2013)

Bravery comes in many forms. Frankly, I have a hard time trying to decide whether one individual should, or should not, have been awarded a particular medal...and sometimes we have to factor in the political issues or try to view the event from a contemporaneous perspective (which is always hard). For many soldiers, sailors and airmen, simply waking up every day (or night) and doing their job was tough enough - keeping going when your mates are disappearing takes its own kind of courage. I am full of admiration for those who receive gallantry awards. None of us knows how we would have responded in the same situation. And we are still producing sons and daughters capable of truly heroic displays of physical bravery, as evidenced by Johnson Beharry VC Johnson Beharry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.


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## R Pope (Jan 1, 2013)

Records were found a few years after Audie Murphy's death that showed another US soldier actually had more medals awarded. The gov't contacted the gentleman and he wouldn't allow them to make a big deal of it, apparently. I have his name somewhere in my stack of books but can't find the right one.


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## meatloaf109 (Jan 1, 2013)

buffnut453 said:


> Meatloaf,
> 
> I'm not trying to restrict Charles' right of expression. However, if he's going to make statements like that perhaps he should back it up with evidence? He's been remarkably quiet since that post. I'm more than happy to get into a discussion--without it getting nasty--but let's understand why Charles thinks the VC is such a trivial award that it's given away for nothing. He can express his opinion but let's see the supporting justification and rationale. Is that unreasonable?


No, not unreasonable at all. 
I cannot speak for him but I think that the choice of words was unfortunate. I know him to be a decent and honorable man. I would ask that all of us remember that sometimes we say or do things that, upon reflection, we would not do again. Perhaps this is one of those times.


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## Rustybugs (Jan 1, 2013)

I was going to stay out of this discussion because I am a new guy and a lot of folks that have been here a long time are friends with each other, not only on the board but in real life. Personally, I was afraid of being ostracized from what I thought was a great forum. 

I am taking a firm stand with my British friends on this subject. The comments posted by Charles were way out of line. To make a broad statement and trivialize the sacrifices of another countries military members is bigoted. What's next, don't like their religion, the way they look, their politics? I have had the honor and privilege of serving with many different countries military members. Not only British, but South Koreans, Filipinos, Australians, Japanese, Germans, Saudi Arabian, Turkish. to name a few. The thought of making a statement trivializing the sacrifice and more often death of a service member and his award, is sickening. 

I am not a military historian. A few of you are. Debating a specific action while being respectful is a good idea. The statements made here by some of the members are not. Everyone has the right to an opinion. Those of us that have served, were willing to fight for that right and some have died doing just that. 
We all have the ability to look back and read about more details or specific actions taken by not only countries but by specific people. Hindsight is 20/20. I don't know if every award presented was justified for whatever the reason. Want to debate it? Fine, contact the member if he is still alive, contact surviving members of his squad, unit, service. Read up on all the facts as written. Then have a respectful debate. That's the way it's supposed to happen. In this case it wasn't.


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## Lucky13 (Jan 1, 2013)

meatloaf109 said:


> No, not unreasonable at all.
> I cannot speak for him but I think that the choice of words was unfortunate. _I know him to be a decent and honorable man._ I would ask that all of us remember that sometimes we say or do things that, upon reflection, we would not do again. Perhaps this is one of those times.



Definitely agree on that! We've all done it, sometimes regret it more than other times, a misplaced word, missed . or , or whatever, easily done and hopefully it shouldn't distract us from being, if far apart, good friends, with a common interest, having a interesting and educational discussion...which it's all about anyway, right?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 1, 2013)

Alright Enough! 

Everyone chill out. Why don't you wait to see what he actually meant. It may very well have been taken out of context, as a lot of things on the internet are, until they are explained.

Everyone is jumping to conclusions and attacking him, without even a response from him. That is just as bad, as what you all are accusing him of!

Charles is a good and honorable man. Give him a chance to respond, before you crucify him!


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## Marcel (Jan 1, 2013)

Agreed Chris. I also know Charles to be a thoughtful, polite and honourable man and I'm sure he was not trying to insult the british. 

On topic:
The most decorated Dutchman in WW2 was probably Bram (Bob) van de Stock. He was a Dutch pilot flying with the 1st JaVA from Den Helder and thus participated in the big dogfight between this unit and a German squadron in 1940. He later fled to the UK where he became a Spitfire pilot. He was in Stalag luft 3 and was one of the 3 man that did made it to freedom during the famous Great Escape ( unfortunately the movie makers decided to downplay his roll and changed his caracter into an Australian officer). 
He got the following decorations:
Dutch:
- Officier in de Orde van Oranje-Nassau
- De Bronzen Leeuw
- Het Bronzen Kruis
- Het Kruis van Verdienste
- Het Vliegerkruis met het getal "2" op het lint voor een tweede toekenning
- Het Oorlogsherinneringskruis
- Het Verzetsherdenkingskruis

Belgian:
- Officier in de Orde van Leopold II met palmen
- Het Belgisch oorlogskruis met Palmen

UK:
- Honorary Officer of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire
- 3 British Campaign Stars.

France:
- Croix the Guerre

Poland:
Cross of Valor (Krzyż Walecznych)


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## Lucky13 (Jan 1, 2013)

Think that we all can agree on that Chris, hands down, no questions asked, being one who I'm honored and proud to call a friend! 
If we didn't really looked at it as a slight missunderstanding, out of context, unfortunate choice of words etc., I'm sure that it would have gone way out of hand and one of you Mods, would have locked this thread long ago!


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## meatloaf109 (Jan 1, 2013)

I have often wondered why the producers of that film chose to change the nationalities like they did. I understand that they had to invent the "Captain Hills" character to accomidate Steve McQueen, but couldn't have James Coburn done an equally bad Dutch accent?


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## buffnut453 (Jan 1, 2013)

meatloaf109 said:


> No, not unreasonable at all.
> I cannot speak for him but I think that the choice of words was unfortunate. I know him to be a decent and honorable man. I would ask that all of us remember that sometimes we say or do things that, upon reflection, we would not do again. Perhaps this is one of those times.



I entirely agree. To be honest, I was shocked to see a comment like that from Charles. He's normally the epitome of courtesy and politeness. That's why, in my original response to him, I asked if he was being ironic or had mis-typed his post. I really hope he'll be back online soon so we can talk (or at least type!) all this through. 

We're all capable of making mistakes, saying things we didn't mean or, in the rush to submit a post, mangling the words such that they can be misinterpreted. As for me, many here know that I only open my mouth to change my socks!


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## buffnut453 (Jan 1, 2013)

meatloaf109 said:


> couldn't have James Coburn done an equally bad Dutch accent?



Coburn's Aussie still beats Van Dyke's Cockney any day of the week (and twice on Sundays!).


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## meatloaf109 (Jan 1, 2013)

Yep, me too, except I don't wear socks.
And from what I've heard, Jan never changes his.


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## Marcel (Jan 1, 2013)

meatloaf109 said:


> I have often wondered why the producers of that film chose to change the nationalities like they did. I understand that they had to invent the "Captain Hills" character to accomidate Steve McQueen, but couldn't have James Coburn done an equally bad Dutch accent?


I think it was a comercial thingy. The same reason why Captain Hills was added. There simply are more Americans then Dutch to identify with one of the caracters. In reality no Americans participated in the escape although some did help to digg the tunnel.


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## Lucky13 (Jan 1, 2013)

meatloaf109 said:


> Yep, me too, except I don't wear socks.
> And from what I've heard, Jan never changes his.



I don't have to, they change themselves! 

Most decorated Swede of WWII, I think, Captain Allan Mann...







His medals...


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## ccheese (Jan 1, 2013)

OK, lads, let’s fall back and regroup.

My remark about the VC being given out like candy, was inappropriate. I did not mean to demean either the British/Aussies/Kiwi’s or those who have received the VC. For this I do apologize.

My original thought, when I heard some RNZAF type got a VC for sinking a U-boat, was... how about all the USN Patrol types, or the DD or DE skippers who sank U-boats. How about the British Corvette captains...... They never got their country’s highest honor for their deed. I’m sure those “in power” thought they were just doing their job.

One man sinking a U-boat or one man shooting down five enemy planes, to me, does not merit his nation’s highest honor. This is a personal opinion... nothing more.

After reading about F/O Trigg, sacrificing himself (and nine of his crew) to sink a U-boat I must say I have some thoughts on this particular action that bother me. Some will say he was a hero, and deserved his VC. But.... what about his crew of nine men ? I wonder if he asked them if they were prepared to give their all for a U-boat. Again.... my opinion.

I’m sure we’ll all agree that in some instances, medals were given out for political reasons and some to boost morale. 

MacArthur, Nimitz, Halsey and quite a few others of “flag rank” were very instrumental in bringing the war to an end in the Pacific. Yet MacArthur was the only one awarded a MOH. I feel this was political..... and to shut him up.

To those who were offended by my remark, again, I apologize.

Charles


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## Njaco (Jan 1, 2013)

and for my part, I wasn't particularly defending Charles as much as I was offended by the attack that Edgar made on his comment and against the Mods in general. We've just had 2 pages of comment about what Charles said and it was civil. Edgar's post was not.

Edgar was only given a month for the comment and we welcome him back afterwards if that is his choice.

Thats all I'm gonna say.


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## buffnut453 (Jan 1, 2013)

Charles,

Like I said earlier, you've always come across as a most patient and honourable man and you've proved it again with your last post. It's all good...we all make mistakes so no worries from me.

I don't disagree with your comments about Trigg's crew. The allocation of gallantry awards sometimes defies logic - for example, VCs were awarded to 2 members of a Fairey Battle crew while the poor gunner got nothing. Apparently the rationale is that the "key decision makers" in the action get the award, whereas those who are simply "along for the ride" don't. Not saying it's fair - as I've said before, there are many acts of bravery that go unrecognised by the award of medals. 

In the case of Trigg, we must also consider that he had already been awarded a DFC which equates to the MC and DSC and, in WWII, was the next-highest award for gallantry below the VC. If the action in which he lost his life was demonstrably more gallant than those for which he gained the DFC, then the only real option is to award the VC. The testimony of the U-Boat captain may also have played a significant part in the award.


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## GrauGeist (Jan 1, 2013)

There's also a good chance that there weren't too many crew members left in one piece aboard Trigg's ship after being worked over by the U-Boat's AA, either...


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## Bernhart (Jan 2, 2013)

suppposedly most decorated Canadian,Barker returned to Canada in May 1919 as the most decorated Canadian of the war, with the Victoria Cross, the Distinguished Service Order and Bar, the Military Cross and two Bars, two Italian Silver Medals for Military Valour, and the French Croix de guerre. He was also mentioned in despatches three times. The Canadian Daily Record, a publication of the Overseas Military Forces of Canada, wrote in December 1918 that William Barker of Dauphin, Manitoba was the Canadian holding the record for "most fighting decorations" in the war. No other Canadian soldier, sailor or airman has surpassed this record, and the Canadian War Museum exhibit, located in Ottawa, Ontario, states: "Lieutenant Colonel William G. Barker, one of the legendary aces of the war, remains the most decorated Canadian in military service." 
with this guy a close second

The Medals Awarded to Sergeant Tommy Prince

Military Medal, 1939 - 1945 Star, Italy Star, France Germany Star, Defense
Medal, Canadian Volunteer Service Medal with Clasp,

War Medal, Korean Medal, Korea Volunteer Medal 1950 - 1954,
United Nation's Service Medal, U.S. Silver Star


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## Aozora (Jan 5, 2013)

buffnut453 said:


> Charles,
> 
> Like I said earlier, you've always come across as a most patient and honourable man and you've proved it again with your last post. It's all good...we all make mistakes so no worries from me.
> 
> ...



Just to get things into perspective on F/O Trigg: Auckland War Memorial Museum - Trigg-Lloyd-Allan-World-War-II,-1939-1945

Part of the reason for awarding Lloyd Trigg the V.C was that he continued to "lead from the front" when could easily have packed his bags and headed back to New Zealand: As a member of the RNZAF, rather than the RAF, once "tour expired" he had the option of going back home - instead he continued to fly:


> He had completed his operational sorties and had invariably displayed skill and courage of a very high order.


 Some Coastal Command crews went through an entire tour without sighting a single U -Boat; Trigg and his crew caught three, which probably says something about Trigg and his flight crew - dumb luck, maybe, but also enough patience and skill to spot three U-Boats in a very big ocean, and carry out attacks on the same. And no offense taken Charles.


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## evangilder (Jan 5, 2013)

The awarding of medals by any military has always been somewhat odd. There are definitely awards that are earned and well-deserved, while sometimes others are awarded and you are left shaking your head wondering how that happened. Everyone who has served deserves recognition and someone who goes well beyond the call of duty certainly does. One instance that I remember from my time in the service was a group of Army guys that were off-duty in a discotheque in Berlin (The La Belle) when it got bombed in 1986. They received purple hearts for that. I was like "Wait, what?". Those weren't combat injuries, yet they got them. I know many people from that time frame that were TDY in foreign places who got shot or wounded in actual combat and they didn't get squat. So I can fully understand how frustrating it can be. Sometimes it's political, sometimes it's just a matter of being in the right place at the right time. 

That being said, I have a book of CMoH citations and a majority of them deserved it. It seems the ones that get the most attention are the ones who were unbelievably amazing or controversial.


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