# Bombardier's Oath



## billrunnels (Nov 19, 2017)

The Norden Bombsight was still considered top secret in 1944. Therefore, the Bombardier's Oath was administered to us the first week at Bombardier School............................

"Mindful of the secret trust about to be placed in me by my Commander in Chief, the President of The United States, by whose direction I have been chosen for bombardier training, and mindful of the fact that I am to become guardian of one of my country's most priceless military assets, the American bombsight, I do here, in the presence of Almighty God, swear by the Bombardier's Code of Honor to keep inviolate the secrecy of any and all confidential information revealed to me, and further to uphold the honor and integrity of the Army Air Forces, if need be, with my life itself."

Serious business at the time.

Reactions: Like Like:
8 | Like List reactions


----------



## parsifal (Nov 19, 2017)

They took it seriously by the look of it


Here is a link to an article concerning the Norden sight


http://www.historynet.com/not-so-secret-weapon-the-norden-bombsight.htm


----------



## billrunnels (Nov 19, 2017)

parsifal said:


> They took it seriously by the look of it
> 
> 
> Here is a link to an article concerning the Norden sight
> ...


Thanks for sharing the link. Interesting reading.


----------



## Tim Moore (Nov 19, 2017)

There is a wonderfully well-written and interesting book on the Duquesne spy ring called “Double Agent: The First Hero of World War II and How the FBI Outwitted and Destroyed a Nazi Spy Ring” by Peter Duffy. It includes the story of Herman Lang and the theft of the Norden plans and their delivery to Germany. (I was able to download a Kindle version, but that may not currently be an option.)

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## pbehn (Nov 20, 2017)

I remember seeing a programme on TV showing how the bomb sights were removed and locked up on UK stations, it seemed a bit curious when there were a number of b 17s already in german hands.


----------



## billrunnels (Nov 20, 2017)

pbehn said:


> I remember seeing a programme on TV showing how the bomb sights were removed and locked up on UK stations, it seemed a bit curious when there were a number of b 17s already in german hands.


It did seem strange. When I was there in 1945, the bombsight remained in the aircraft all the time. At mission briefings we were reminded to be on the alert should a B-17 join our squadron as it could be the enemy. It was not uncommon for a stray B-17 to join another squadron over the North Sea. Usually they couldn't find their squadron during formation. This happened to us and our gunners had the stray in their sights until positive identification was made.


----------



## pbehn (Nov 20, 2017)

billrunnels said:


> It did seem strange. When I was there in 1945, the bombsight remained in the aircraft all the time. At mission briefings we were reminded to be on the alert should a B-17 join our squadron as it could be the enemy.


The programme I saw described the handling of a Norden sight as something between a high security prisoner and a radioactive isotope. Trying to steal it would obviously be espionage but any failing in procedure to protect it resulted in charges too, I wonder how mny men or women actually did get in to trouble

Wikipedia says this

*Since the Norden was considered a critical wartime instrument, bombardiers were required to take an oath during their training stating that they would defend its secret with their own life if necessary. In case the bomber plane should make an emergency landing on enemy territory, the bombardier would have to shoot the important parts of the Norden with a gun to disable it. As this method still would leave a nearly intact apparatus to the enemy, a thermite grenade was installed; the heat of the chemical reaction would melt the Norden into a lump of metal.[27] The Douglas TBD Devastator torpedo bomber was originally equipped with flotation bags in the wings to aid the aircrew's escape after ditching, but they were removed once the Pacific War began; this ensured that the aircraft would sink, taking the Norden with it.[44]*

*After each completed mission, bomber crews left the aircraft with a bag which they deposited in a safe ("the Bomb Vault"). This secure facility ("the AFCE and Bombsight Shop") was typically in one of the base's Nissen hut (Quonset hut) support buildings. The Bombsight Shop was manned by enlisted men who were members of a Supply Depot Service Group ("Sub Depot") attached to each USAAF bombardment group. These shops not only guarded the bombsights but performed critical maintenance on the Norden and related control equipment. This was probably the most technically skilled ground-echelon job, and certainly the most secret, of all the work performed by Sub Depot personnel. The non-commissioned officer in charge and his staff had to have a high aptitude for understanding and working with mechanical devices.*

*As the end of World War II neared, the bombsight was gradually downgraded in its secrecy; however, it was not until 1944 that the first public display of the instrument occurred.

*
I believe there was an attempt to use a captured B 24 to form up on a US squadron, if true I cant imagine how it was supposed to progress.

Reactions: Informative Informative:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## billrunnels (Nov 20, 2017)

pbehn said:


> The programme I saw described the handling of a Norden sight as something between a high security prisoner and a radioactive isotope. Trying to steal it would obviously be espionage but any failing in procedure to protect it resulted in charges too, I wonder how mny men or women actually did get in to trouble
> 
> Wikipedia says this
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing the info. We were instructed to put a couple rounds from our side arm into the vertical gyro located in the bombsight head.

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## Tim Moore (Nov 20, 2017)

It is absolutely false that there was a “thermite grenade” or any other incendiary device within the Norden bombsight. Alfred Pardini, in his book, "The Legendary Norden Bombsight" thoroughly debunks this myth. In addition, having personally restored dozens of Norden bombsights, I can assure you there was no such device within. I would love to hear from Bill on this and his instructions for the destruction of the bombsight, but my research indicates that the bombardier was to use his pistol to fire two shots into the rate end and one through the telescope before throwing the bombsight out. The only way I can see that this myth got started was that there was an incendiary grenade designed to destroy the entire airplane, if necessary. Please see the attached documentation:

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Winner Winner:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Tim Moore (Nov 20, 2017)

Thanks, Bill, for the clarification. I was typing my response up while you were posting.


----------



## pbehn (Nov 20, 2017)

I am not a huge fan of Wikipedia, but in any case the Germans had all the information they needed on the Norden either by espionage or capture.
from wiki
In spite of the security precautions, the entire Norden system had been passed to the Germans before the war started. Herman W. Lang, a German spy, had been employed by the Carl L. Norden Company. During a visit to Germany in 1938, Lang conferred with German military authorities and reconstructed plans of the confidential materials from memory. In 1941, Lang, along with the 32 other German agents of the Duquesne Spy Ring, was arrested by the FBI and convicted in the largest espionage prosecution in U.S. history. He received a sentence of 18 years in prison on espionage charges and a two-year concurrent sentence under the Foreign Agents Registration Act.[45]

However since the British had a bomb sight that performed almost the same as the Norden sight it is fair to assume that the Germans had the technology to do the same all on their own.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## pbehn (Nov 20, 2017)

Tim Moore said:


> Thanks, Bill, for the clarification. I was typing my response up while you were posting.


Is it possible that "thermite grenades" were used in the early days of research or operation and become confused with standard operation. I am not a thermite grenade or Wikipedia apologist by the way, just asking?


----------



## billrunnels (Nov 20, 2017)

pbehn said:


> Is it possible that "thermite grenades" were used in the early days of research or operation and become confused with standard operation. I am not a thermite grenade or Wikipedia apologist by the way, just asking?


No mention of a thermite grenade was made during my time at Bombardier School.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## pbehn (Nov 20, 2017)

billrunnels said:


> No mention of a thermite grenade was made during my time at Bombardier School.


Well Bill, I cant say I am surprised, it doesn't take a genius to see some sort of safety issue with an object called a "thermite grenade" in the nose of an aircraft loaded with people fuel and bombs. I am sure there is some reason for the myth becoming a Wikipedia "fact" it may just have been a proposal.


----------



## Tim Moore (Nov 20, 2017)

Just finishing one up tonight. Gyro got new top and bottom bearings, and the cover just came out of the oven with new wrinkle coat paint. No grenades here!

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## billrunnels (Nov 20, 2017)

pbehn said:


> Well Bill, I cant say I am surprised, it doesn't take a genius to see some sort of safety issue with an object called a "thermite grenade" in the nose of an aircraft loaded with people fuel and bombs. I am sure there is some reason for the myth becoming a Wikipedia "fact" it may just have been a proposal.


Could also have been planted propaganda ?


----------



## Token (Nov 21, 2017)

parsifal said:


> They took it seriously by the look of it
> 
> Here is a link to an article concerning the Norden sight
> 
> http://www.historynet.com/not-so-secret-weapon-the-norden-bombsight.htm




The last sentence in that article is a classic lack of understanding of how or why security exists: “So despite years of extraordinary efforts by U.S. military and civilian authorities to keep the Norden bombsight secret, America’s secret weapon was never secret—except to the American public.”


You apply secrecy to protect technology and information. Things that reveal your own capability/understanding or that might increase an enemy’s capability/understanding. When applied to the military having anything less than the best security you can achieve is to freely give away that technology or understanding. Assuming the enemy does not do the same (fails to apply reasonable security) this puts your forces at an immediate disadvantage. And just because one enemy obtains information you want to keep secret, does that mean that all enemies have done so and that there is no further reason to keep something secret?


So yes, the Germans did know how the Norden worked, and had a good idea of its capabilities. How about everyone else that US forces faced in the conflict? Even if the Germans shared this information with the Japanese, Italians, Burmese, Laotians, Albanians, etc, etc, did all of these other countries have the same understanding as the Germans of the device? Did all these other nations have an equivalent in use already? If the answer is “no” for any of the three major combatants than the secrecy was warranted, even demanded, to give US forces an edge, however small an edge that might be, in the fight.


Secrecy and security is a military fundamental requirement. You try for the best security in the World and hope the security you actually achieve (never as good as you want it) is good enough to maintain any edge you might have.


T!


----------



## 25Kingman49 (Nov 23, 2017)

Norden Bombsight security was certainly taken seriously at bases in the ZI including special storage buildings which in some cases included bombsight repair stations as well as bank type vaults to secure the stored equipment.

Members here may be familiar with the Scott Murdock web site Scott's USAF Installations Page one of Scott's many interests are bombsight storage buildings, images can be found in many of his trip reports here Scotts Trip Reports here is the one for Wendover Field Trip Report - Wendover of which I am most familiar working with that Foundation and Museum.
Edit: I should also note that this building has been completely restored since Scott's photos were taken back in 2008, including the interior with work benches used for bombsight maintenance.

Here is an image from my collection. The man in the photo is Jim Petersen, President of the Historic Wendover Airfield Foundation/Museum.

Scott






Here is a rather odd example of a bombsight storage building also located at Wendover Field (sorry about the graffiti). Scott pointed out the existence of this building to me but it seems others on base already knew about it. Its location is odd as it is located away from the Air Field parking tarmac and in fact northwest of where the officers club, now the "Senior Master Sergeant John T. Brinkman Service Club" is located. This image is looking north, so away from the Field. The building in the background here was once bachelor officer quarters. Never have gotten an explanation of how the bombsight's got from the plane to this little storage building, although it is assumed it was the bombardiers responsibility to secure this equipment.





This areal image of Wendover might help better understand the location of this small bombsight storage building. Hard to imagine bombardiers walking or traveling by jeep to this relatively removed storage building, and what type of security might have been involved beyond the steel door,

Reactions: Like Like:
2 | Like List reactions


----------



## Hoosier Hot Shot (Nov 23, 2017)

billrunnels said:


> The Norden Bombsight was still considered top secret in 1944. Therefore, the Bombardier's Oath was administered to us the first week at Bombardier School............................
> 
> "Mindful of the secret trust about to be placed in me by my Commander in Chief, the President of The United States, by whose direction I have been chosen for bombardier training, and mindful of the fact that I am to become guardian of one of my country's most priceless military assets, the American bombsight, I do here, in the presence of Almighty God, swear by the Bombardier's Code of Honor to keep inviolate the secrecy of any and all confidential information revealed to me, and further to uphold the honor and integrity of the Army Air Forces, if need be, with my life itself."
> 
> Serious business at the time.


----------



## Gnomey (Nov 23, 2017)

Great stuff Bill!


----------



## 25Kingman49 (Nov 24, 2017)

Hi Bill,

I should have started my post #18 above with these questions but missed that opportunity.

In reviewing your "memories" page this detail was not found. Where did you receive your bombardier training, and also your combat crew training in the ZI? What were your bombsight procedures during these different aspects of your training? Were you ever required to use one of these vault type buildings to secure your bombsight, if so was there a sign out and in procedure? You noted earlier that the bombsight remained in the plane once in the UK and I'm wondering if this was also true while in the ZI at this time during the war.

Thank you,
Scott


----------



## billrunnels (Nov 24, 2017)

25Kingman49 said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> I should have started my post #18 above with these questions but missed that opportunity.
> 
> ...


The Bombardier School I attended was at Midland, Texas. I was in class of 44-13 graduating on September 30, 1944 ( 137 2LT and 40 FO ). Never saw a bombsight vault building. They were in the aircraft. Crew Assembly training was at Gulfport, Mississippi.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## 25Kingman49 (Nov 24, 2017)

Thank you, Bill.

From this we can likely assume bombsight security was somewhat relaxed from at least mid-1944 onward.


----------



## billrunnels (Nov 24, 2017)

25Kingman49 said:


> Thank you, Bill.
> 
> From this we can likely assume bombsight security was somewhat relaxed from at least mid-1944 onward.



That is correct. I think the only reason for administering the oath at that late date was to keep we new bombardiers from talking about the bombsight.

Reactions: Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


----------



## Hoosier Hot Shot (Nov 28, 2017)

Gnomey said:


> Great stuff Bill!


The Japs had a bombsight that was an exact copy of the Norden.


billrunnels said:


> The Norden Bombsight was still considered top secret in 1944. Therefore, the Bombardier's Oath was administered to us the first week at Bombardier School............................
> 
> "Mindful of the secret trust about to be placed in me by my Commander in Chief, the President of The United States, by whose direction I have been chosen for bombardier training, and mindful of the fact that I am to become guardian of one of my country's most priceless military assets, the American bombsight, I do here, in the presence of Almighty God, swear by the Bombardier's Code of Honor to keep inviolate the secrecy of any and all confidential information revealed to me, and further to uphold the honor and integrity of the Army Air Forces, if need be, with my life itself."
> 
> Serious business at the time.





billrunnels said:


> Thanks for sharing the link. Interesting reading.


----------



## stona (Nov 28, 2017)

billrunnels said:


> No mention of a thermite grenade was made during my time at Bombardier School.



Hi Bill

The US did develop the 'Mark 15 Mod.1 Demolition Unit' as a bomb sight destroyer. As far as I can tell it was only issued to the USN, so you probably never saw one.

It was an 18" cylinder 51/2" in diametre packed with magnesium and an oxidiser which acted like a blow torch, directed at the sight.This might be confused with a thermite device. It may have been effective, but sounds rather dangerous and might well have brought down the entire aircraft. Having said that the .45 calibre solution seems to ignore the dangers of richocheing bullets, at least to the fellow tasked with firing the weapon.

The first intact Norden sight which the Germans definitely got a good look at was that on board a B-24 flying from Tobruk to Oran which ran low on fuel, landing in Spanish Morocco. Franco's officials allowed the Germans to examine the aircraft and all its contents before permitting it to continue its flight.This was on February 25/26 1942.

The US was very paranoid about the security of the Norden sight, but in reality it would have been difficult for the Germans to copy (had they wished to). Furthermore, they would have been obliged to change their air power doctrine, training systems and even the aircraft its industries were producing to make use of the sight.

I have seen US documents which substitute all sorts of odd words for 'bombsight'. A list I made included _siding, latent, telescope, mickey,_ _dusty_ and_ talon._

Cheers

Steve


----------



## billrunnels (Nov 28, 2017)

stona said:


> Hi Bill
> 
> The US did develop the 'Mark 15 Mod.1 Demolition Unit' as a bomb sight destroyer. As far as I can tell it was only issued to the USN, so you probably never saw one.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing this information. Very interesting reading.............Bill


----------

