# Most skilled pilots



## Chris_G (Jan 4, 2006)

Which airforce do you think has the best trained pilots? Of course most Western air arms are pretty proficient, but if i had to pick just one it would be the Israeli's. Just because they seem to see action a hell of a lot more than most of the others.


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## pbfoot (Jan 4, 2006)

Israelis are good but the terrain they fly over is pretty tame and their foes are lacking a bit


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## R988 (Jan 4, 2006)

India would probably rate a mention, they have seen a bit of action themselves over the years and the sheer diversity of equipment they use gives them a good basis of knowledge for developing tactics and their historical record is pretty good.

Just dont mention COPE India


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 4, 2006)

pbfoot said:


> Israelis are good but the terrain they fly over is pretty tame and their foes are lacking a bit


They do have lots of hands-on experience though, as do the Indians. Pakistanis too, for that matter.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 4, 2006)

R988 said:


> India would probably rate a mention, they have seen a bit of action themselves over the years and the sheer diversity of equipment they use gives them a good basis of knowledge for developing tactics and their historical record is pretty good.
> 
> Just dont mention COPE India



While I agree about India having a good airforce, the Cope India story has another slant, and I'm not throwing that in becuase I'm from the USA. Althought the IAF's performance was commendable, do you know they were engaging F-15s at a 5 to 1 numerical superiority in their favor?!?! With their SU-27s no wonder why they won!!! This is discussed in detail at ASIG and some of the members posted the referances where this was later revealed....

The IAF has also fared well against the USAF during excersizes....


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## Hunter368 (Jan 4, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> R988 said:
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> > India would probably rate a mention, they have seen a bit of action themselves over the years and the sheer diversity of equipment they use gives them a good basis of knowledge for developing tactics and their historical record is pretty good.
> ...



Joe has the IAF and the USAF ever had "Topgun" type mock air combats etc ? If yes how did they turn out? Can you help with this ?


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 4, 2006)

Hunter368 said:


> FLYBOYJ said:
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> > R988 said:
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Yes they have and that is exactly what Cope India is about - the key phrase here is "Dissimilar Aircraft Training," mock combat with a friendly nation who possesses Russian Equipment, the most likely hardware the US will face if challenged in a conflict.

In 2004 several F-15 went over to India and essentially got their butts kicked, but when the actual scenarios were examined the F-15 was being challenged 4 and 5 to one. Now one may say "that isn't fair," but the F-15 is SUPPOSED to take on those numbers and win. One item brought up was the advanced radar found on the Su-27, a reason cited for the F-15s supposively dismal performance


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## Hunter368 (Jan 4, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Hunter368 said:
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Really??? wow I thought (heard mostly on USA programs, we all know how unbiased they can be, hehe just a joke at my USA neighbor not serious) how the F-15 has been "THE" fighter in the world, top everything about it. The Su-27 has better radar than the F-15? I thought it was the Caddy of fighters still today.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 5, 2006)

Hunter368 said:


> FLYBOYJ said:
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In some situations the Su-27 is able to exploit the F-15 and depending who you talk to the Su-27 has a more capable radar, however with that said, it doesn't mean the F-15 is outclassed one-on-one, its a matter of the F-15 NOT being able to take on 4 Su-27s at the same time and come out unscathed.

Now with the F-22....... 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 5, 2006)

i'd still love to see the results of a F/A-22 (still doesn't seem right calling it that) against a Eurofighter.........


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 5, 2006)

Hunter368 said:


> (heard mostly on USA programs, we all know how unbiased they can be, hehe just a joke at my USA neighbor not serious)


Canadian programs are as bad or worse at times, and that's _not_ a joke.


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## Gnomey (Jan 5, 2006)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> i'd still love to see the results of a F/A-22 (still doesn't seem right calling it that) against a Eurofighter.........


I would think the F-22 would win, but it would be very interesting to see.


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## Hunter368 (Jan 5, 2006)

Nonskimmer said:


> Hunter368 said:
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> > (heard mostly on USA programs, we all know how unbiased they can be, hehe just a joke at my USA neighbor not serious)
> ...



I find that rarely in life are people interested in hearing the truth, the real truth. Countries are no different they want to hear what makes them happy allot of the time, not the hard cold truth. I have learned that about people after years of organizational behavior courses and 15 years of managing people in the work place. That is off the subject alittle but the truth. I have found very few people who really want to hear the truth about their performance in a work place.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 5, 2006)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> i'd still love to see the results of a F/A-22 (still doesn't seem right calling it that) against a Eurofighter.........



There have been simulations done with both aircraft (Syscom would love that!) The F-22 bettered it up to 4 to 1 in odds favoring the Eurofighter, after that the Eurofighter overwhelmed the F-22...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 5, 2006)

do you have any more info on this it sounds interesting?


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 5, 2006)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> do you have any more info on this it sounds interesting?



Here's the information - I was wrong about matching up the F-22 against the Eurofighter - the simulation was against the Su-35, here's a quote...

"The magic 82% number is derived from a mid nineties DERA simulation against a postulated Su-35 threat. The number is based upon the rather unusual metric of "probability of successful engagement" in BVR combat, rating the F-22 at 91%, the Typhoon at 82%, the F-15F (single seat E) at 60%, the Rafale at 50% and the F-15C at 43%. 

The probability of a successful engagement can be translated into the more commonly used metric of a kill ratio by making some reasonable statistical assumptions, and doing this yields about 10.0:1 for the F-22A, 4.6:1 for the Typhoon, 1.5:1 for the single seat F-15E, 1:1 for the Rafale and 0.75:1 for the F-15C. So in the most common terms used, the Typhoon is by the DERA simulation about half as combat effective as the F-22A, about three times as combat effective as the F-15F, about five times as effective as the Rafale and 6 times as effective as the F-15C. If we compare this with cited USAF claims rating the F-22A as 10-15 times as combat effective as the F-15C in BVR engagements, this means that the DERA study roughly agrees with USAF assessments of F-22A vs F-15C combat effectiveness. The detailed assumptions applied to this study have not been disclosed."

http://www.ausairpower.net/typhoon.html


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## Gnomey (Jan 5, 2006)

Interesting stuff FBJ, will go and have a look for more info on this subject when I find the time, good site too.

The conclusions:
" What conclusions can we draw about the Typhoon ? The notion that the aircraft is "almost as good as an F-22" is not supportable, indeed upgrading the F-15 with engines and a radar/IRS&T/AAM package of the same generation as that of the Typhoon would equalise almost all advantages held by the Typhoon over older F-15C/E variants. By the same token, no upgrades performed on the F/A-18A/C would equalise the performance advantages of the Typhoon over these aircraft.

The strength of the Typhoon is its very modern and comprehensive avionic package, especially that in the RAF variant, and its excellent agility when operated around its optimum combat radius of about 300 NMI (a figure to be found in older Eurofighter literature, which has since disappeared with the export drive to compete against the bigger F-15 and F-22).

The Typhoon's weaknesses are its F/A-18C class weight and thrust and the implications of this in combat at extended operational radii, and the longer term sensitivity of its BVR weapons advantage to equivalent technological developments in opposing fighters.

In terms of where to position the Typhoon in the current menagerie of fighter aircraft, it can be best described as an F/A-18C sized fighter with BVR systems and agility performance better than older F-15 models, similar to growth F-15 models with same generation systems and engines, but inferior to the F-15 in useful operating radius. The Typhoon is not a stealth aircraft, despite various assertions to this effect, nor is it a genuine supercruiser like the F-22. Its design incorporates none of the features seen in very low observable types, nor does the EJ200 incorporate the unique design features of the F119 and F120 powerplants.

The Typhoon is certainly not a lemon, although the wisdom of mass producing a high performance conventional fighter of its ilk in a period where stealth is about to hit mass production in the F-22 and JSF programs could be seriously questioned. It represents what is likely to be the last major evolutionary step in the teen series design philosophy."


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 5, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Althought the IAF's performance was commendable, do you know they were engaging F-15s at a 5 to 1 numerical superiority in their favor?!?! With their SU-27s no wonder why they won!!!



I dont think anything but maybe a F-22 could beat a Su-27 at 5 to 1 odds.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 5, 2006)

Found more info...

"According to Colonel Greg Neubeck, deputy commander of operations for the wing’s 3rd Operations Group and exercise director for Cope India, in these offensive and defensive missions, four *F-15Cs were usually flying against ten or twelve of the same model Indian fighters. *The 3rd Operations Group was responsible for the 3rd Wing’s flying mission. He further stated that what USAF faced was not only superior numbers, but also IAF pilots who were very proficient in their aircraft and smart on tactics, a tough combination for the USAF to overcome."

http://www.indiadefence.com/COPE.htm


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## Glider (Jan 5, 2006)

I liked the site. In there is mentioned that the IAF were going to Alaska in 2004, any idea as to how that went. Also very interested in the Mig21 Bison which seems a very cheep effective machine


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2006)

Good info there, and why would the IAF go to Alaska. I could ask my buddy about that because he was stationed in Alaska in 2004.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 18, 2006)

More on Cope India...

"The whole world knows that if you mess with U.S. Air Force pilots, you're going down. Hard.

Except, someone forgot to send the memo to India, apparently. Because, in recent exercises, Indian flyboys in low-tech Russian and French jets defeated American F-15C pilots more than 90 percent of the time.

Now, granted, the Indians had the Americans outnumbered: usually 10 or 12 to 4, during the Cope India air combat exercise held last February around the Gwalior Air Force Station."

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/000976.html


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 20, 2006)

Those are overwelming odds when it comes to fighter combat.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 20, 2006)

I think this shows that Russian aircraft, if flown correctly and without strict GIC requirements can compete with western aircraft. I once read that during conflicts with Israel, if Egyptian or Syrian pilots deviated from GIC orders, there were severely reprimanded, a common Soviet doctrine.

Still, being "waxed" when you're facing 3 and 4 to 1 odds with pilots who were trained with western philosophies is nothing to be ashamed of, but should be noted..


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## Glider (Jan 20, 2006)

I think it should be remembered that these were not standard Russian aircraft. They are in effect Russian airframes matched to some of the best technology in the West, a powerful combination.
Russia has always produced first class airframes, its the electronics that tended to lag behind. 
Remember when the Mig 29 first came to notice and it was realised that it was a good amtch to the early F16 but with technology closer to the F4. The helmet mounted sight was more than a bit of a suprise as well.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 20, 2006)

Glider said:


> I think it should be remembered that these were not standard Russian aircraft. They are in effect Russian airframes matched to some of the best technology in the West, a powerful combination.
> Russia has always produced first class airframes, its the electronics that tended to lag behind.
> Remember when the Mig 29 first came to notice and it was realised that it was a good amtch to the early F16 but with technology closer to the F4. The helmet mounted sight was more than a bit of a suprise as well.



Agree! When I was in Botswana one of their air-tactics instructors was from India. We had a lengthy discussion on how the IAF got the best of both worlds, but one-on-one this guy indicated that aircraft like the -15 and -16 were very difficult to beat....


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## Glider (Jan 20, 2006)

No doubt about it. I would want the F15 - F16 on my side.

It always amused me when I went to Duxford, that they had an F15 in the museum, that would wipe the floor with any RAF fighter that we had in service (pre Typhoon)


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 20, 2006)

Glider said:


> No doubt about it. I would want the F15 - F16 on my side.
> 
> It always amused me when I went to Duxford, that they had an F15 in the museum, that would wipe the floor with any RAF fighter that we had in service (pre Typhoon)



It was probably very broke!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 22, 2006)

Surprises me that they already have a F-15. I would expect to start seeing those after they are older or retired first.


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## plan_D (Jan 24, 2006)

I pictured her when I was there. Don't mind the dragon, the combined effort of the crowd brought it down in the end...

Here's some information on her: http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/hangar/2002/f15/f15.htm


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 24, 2006)

Cool thanks for the pic and great siggy there by the way!


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