# 4 engine german bombers , did they have any in service ?



## joy17782 (Jan 25, 2008)

did the germans ever have any 4 engine bombers in service, i mean heavy bombers , the condor could you say it was a heavy bomber , i dont think it can . but could you ? and would it have made a impact like the b-17 b -24 b-29 lanc aster . thanks for your imput


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## Thorlifter (Jan 25, 2008)

Heinkel had the He-274 and He-277, but only a few were built of each. Junkers had the Ju-89, but again, only a couple were built. I'm not sure of any others.


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## SoD Stitch (Jan 26, 2008)

No, the Germans never really got any 4-engine bombers into "service". They had quite a few, as Thorlifter mentioned, that were in development, but Germany never really fielded any 4-engine "heavies", like the UK and the US did. For the most part, this was due to the type of warfare they fought on both fronts; they mostly fought "tactical" battles, not strategic ones, so they didn't really ever need heavy, long-range bombers (though they would've come in handy at the BoB). The Condor was not really ever used as a pure "bomber"; the closest it got to bombing anything was dropping torpedoes on Allied shipping in the North Sea and the North Atlantic. Other tham that, the Germans mostly used it as a transport and maritime patrol aircraft.

Incidentally, in addition to the "conventional" bombers Thorlifter mentioned, there was the Ar 234C four-engined jet bomber, which was basically an Ar 234B with four BMW 003 turbojets, instead of the "standard" two Jumo 004 turbojets.

There was only one truly strategic bombers built before the end of the War: the Junkers Ju 390, which actually had six engines. Two prototypes were built and, supposedly, one of them (V1, I believe) made a trans-Atlantic flight, turning around and heading back to Germany when it got within sight of New York city.


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## comiso90 (Jan 26, 2008)

Junkers Ju 390 (New York Bomber) - History, Specifications and Pictures - World Military Aircraft


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## Konigstiger205 (Jan 26, 2008)

They never dedicated themselves on four engines bombers...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 26, 2008)

The only real German 4 engined heavy bomber to enter service was the He 177. It only had 2 nacelles but it had 4 engines.

The better He 277 which never entered service is what they should have done from the beginning and then they would have had a great heavy bomber design.

There were several prototypes however including the Me 264 and there was also the Ju 390 which was not a prototype but there were not very many built and it mostly served in transport capacities.


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## HoHun (Jan 26, 2008)

Hi Joy,

>did the germans ever have any 4 engine bombers in service, i mean heavy bombers , the condor could you say it was a heavy bomber , i dont think it can . but could you ? and would it have made a impact like the b-17 b -24 b-29 lanc aster . thanks for your imput

The Focke-Wulf Fw 200 could be considered a heavy bomber, though it was only used in the patrol bomber role (in which the Allies used their heavy bombers, too). It was relatively slow though, and did only have low-altitude rated engines, so it wouldn't have been possible to fly the same missions as with the Heinkel He 111 or the Junkers Ju 88 with the Fw 200.

The great advantage of the Focke-Wulf Fw 200 over the twin-engined types was its long range.

This is typical if you compare four-engined to twin-engined designs ... the B-17 and B-24 of the 8th Air Force carried an average load of 2300 kg per sortie to their targets in Germany and occupied Europe. That's well within the capability of a twin-engined design like the Junkers Ju 88 (see http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/te...ividual-bomb-sizes-makes-9040.html#post267080 ), but the Ju 88 couldn't have flown the same missions since it was not capable of achieving the range required for these missions.

The Luftwaffe's four-engined bomber was the Heinkel He 177 - it had only two propellers, but featured two engines in each of the nacelles. Each engine could be de-coupled from the propeller and be shut down individually in the case of a failure.

However, looking at the numerical strength the Allied bomber arm had to be built up to in order to make a major impact on the German war effort, it's unlikely that the Luftwaffe bombers, which were built in much smaller numbers, could have made a similar impact on the western Allied war effort - especially as for daylight raids, which would have maximized the effect of a small force, it would have been necessary to escort the bombers with long-range fighters and to achieve temporary air superiority over Great Britain.

However, long-range bombers might have proven useful for attacks on strategic targets in the Soviet Union, where resistance probably would have been less intense. Some raids on Soviet power plants were actually considered, but they were never implemented for a variety of reasons.

(Another four-engined bomber of the Luftwaffe was the Ju 288C - the type had been designed as a twin-engined bomber, but when the Jumo 222 engine couldn't deliver the required power the Ju 288 was redesigned to use twin-engine nacelles like the He 177. It was not an exact counterpart to the He 177, though - it was quite a bit smaller and faster.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


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## joy17782 (Jan 26, 2008)

well i was doing some onloine lookin and saw the new yorker bomber and downloaded the the whole site , and was reading threw it , i truely think that in russia it could have helped, but it took alot of heavys too bomb germany and even then albert speer had the factory out put at its highest, so you can say it worked or not , me i think it did , as too say it took alot of fighters of the front line and so forth , alot of thought had too be used too counter the air raids so that means something , and thanks for the web pages everybody it will give me something too look up thanks


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## johnbr (Jan 26, 2008)

There was the Junkers Ju 290.


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## fly boy (Jan 28, 2008)

i never thought the ju 390 was real


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## Njaco (Jan 28, 2008)

The Ju 390 was real, the story about it is not.

The He 177 was a four engined bomber in 2 nacelles. The He 277 was a project that Heinkel tried to push because of the problems with the coupled engines of the 177 but the OKL told him to shut up about it. He kept on and when the need arose, he submitted the plans. Never operational.

The main reason that Germany had no 4 engined bombers was the belief that instead of one 4 Eng. bomber you could build 2 or 3 2 Eng. bombers was a more efficent use of material. Goring liked to see fleets of aircraft and this satisfied that desire. By the time they realized the need for 4 eng it was too late and too many designs were around to play with.

Anyone remember the Ural Bomber program?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 29, 2008)

The story of the Ju 390 can not be confirmed. It does not mean that it is not real.


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## Njaco (Jan 29, 2008)

You're right. I meant to say that.


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## Marcel (Jan 30, 2008)

Njaco said:


> The Ju 390 was real, the story about it is not.
> 
> The He 177 was a four engined bomber in 2 nacelles. The He 277 was a project that Heinkel tried to push because of the problems with the coupled engines of the 177 but the OKL told him to shut up about it. He kept on and when the need arose, he submitted the plans. Never operational.
> 
> ...



Yep with General Wever still there, germany could have developed another bombing strategy in favour of the 4 enigined bombers. I believe that the germans changed their focus on divebombing after Wever died. Even the big H177 tried tho meet the requirement for divebombing.


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## stan reid (Jun 16, 2011)

I think it was the six engine Blohm Voss BV 238 that flew to within sight of New York City and returned.


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## A4K (Jun 16, 2011)

No-ones mentioned the Junkers Ju 287...the V1 had four Jumo 004s, production version planned to have 6 BMW 003s. (atleast one V2 was actually built in Russia after the war)


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## Lighthunmust (Jun 16, 2011)

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that He177s actually did bomb the U.K. some time mid-war.


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## stona (Jun 16, 2011)

stan reid said:


> I think it was the six engine Blohm Voss BV 238 that flew to within sight of New York City and returned.



I don't believe that any Luftwaffe multi engined bomber flew anywhere near New York but then I believe that man did land on the moon and that the Pentagon was,tragically,hit by an airliner.
Steve

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## Erich (Jun 16, 2011)

NO German aircraft ever came close to north Americas the range was not there ................. period !


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## wuzak (Jun 18, 2011)

comiso90 said:


> Junkers Ju 390 (New York Bomber) - History, Specifications and Pictures - World Military Aircraft


 
The Ju 390 was a 6 engine development of the 4 engine Ju 290 transport aircraft. In the case of both the Ju 290 and Ju 390 the design role was transport, later being adapted as bombers. Both had the transport ramp at the rear of the fuselage, the Ju 290 being one of the first aircraft so equipped.


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## Gixxerman (Jun 20, 2011)

Lighthunmust said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that He177s actually did bomb the U.K. some time mid-war.



Yes they did (along with Ju88s, Do 217s, Me410s Ju188s, the Ju188 mentioned as pathfinders, IIRC) in 'Operation Steinbock'.
Most of the books I've seen mention that the He177's diving ability (shallow diving from height) meant that they could get to somewhere around 400mph drop their bombs (like the talk of a 'much vaunted' Me110 this is always described as 'nervously dropping the bombs'......like as if any crew from any nation in WW2 would at the point of bombs away over enemy territory be anything but 'nervous') and then scream off for home keeping the speed as high as possible.
That is those that made it to target, lots did not because of technical failures - which is interesting becase many books say that the late A-5 version was all but cured of problems.

The tactic is invariably stated as allowing the craft to be immune to RAF interception (the sources I've come across say none were lost to the RAF's, by then highly effective radar directed equipped night-fighter force......the German use of duppel/window/chaff is also mentioned which must have helped too).


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## Juha (Jun 20, 2011)

Hello Gixxerman
already during the first Steinbock raid (21-22 Jan 44) He 177A-3 (WNr 5747) of I./KG 40 was shot down by W/O Kemp/ F/Sgt Maidment of 151Sqn (Mossie XII) and another one from 2./KG 40 by F/O Nowell / F/Sgt Randall of 85Sqn

Juha


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## Glider (Jun 20, 2011)

I believe that He177 units had heavy losses in the Steinbeck raids


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## Juha (Jun 20, 2011)

Of the appr. 335 LW bombers lost during the Oper Steinbock at least 21 were He 177s. At the beginning of the Oper. there were 46 He 177s in the participating units, of which 42 were serviceable. On 20 March there were, after new units had arrived, 80, of which 39 were serviceable.

Juha


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## Tante Ju (Jun 21, 2011)

Lighthunmust said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that He177s actually did bomb the U.K. some time mid-war.


 
Author Blandford writes of Greif attacks on England. In 1943 lone 177s did recon, later armed reconossaince over UK. Take off from German border, climb to 9000 meter, take pictures and drop two 1000 kg bombs in daylight from altitude to disturb production. Uninterceptable. Spitfires sometimes make contact, but not could climb to them.. they gave up. Heinkel was too fast, and already at altitude. Return flight in shallow dive - too fast to make contact.. of course for crews very nervous thing, all alone sneaking into England.

In 31 March 1944 strenght reports show a total of 373 He 177s: 335 with units, 274 with operational units. Operational units performed 3491 take off during month; total 3986 takeoff.

Plane could fly 565 km/h, range 5600 km, bomb bay load was 7 tons maximum. Armament 20 cannons, 13 mm and 7.92mm machieguns. Stabilised gyro bomb sight, blind bombing equipment, crew and gunner positions armored. Variant existed for now called precision weapons: (manual) guided missiles and guided bombs. Also torpedoes.


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## Gixxerman (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanks Juhu Tante Ju.
I've had a thing about the Heinkels for a while but there's not exactly a ton of info out there on them their operations (in English anyway). I can't see much on the operations on the Eastern front (barring some talk of the Stalingrad transport work).
I have the Manfred Griehl Joachim Dressel book and the J. Richard Smith Eddie J. Creek book but that's about it.



Glider said:


> I believe that He177 units had heavy losses in the Steinbeck raids



From what I've seen most are due to technical failure and not interception/flak.


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## Juha (Jun 21, 2011)

Hello Tante Ju
do you mean Edmund Blandford's Target England, Flying With The Luftwaffe in WWII? Did he give any dates for those He 177 recon flights and targets to those 1000kg bombs? I would like to know date and target info for cross-checking

Hello Gixxerman, most of those He 177s shot down during Steinbock were shot down by Mossies.

Juha


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## Hop (Jun 21, 2011)

> Author Blandford writes of Greif attacks on England. In 1943 lone 177s did recon, later armed reconossaince over UK. Take off from German border, climb to 9000 meter, take pictures and drop two 1000 kg bombs in daylight from altitude to disturb production. Uninterceptable.



According to Hooton in Eagle in Flames the Luftwaffe flew 67 daylight bombing sorties over the UK in 1943. More than half that total was flown in January and February. He says most attacks were at night, although there were some "unsuccessful" attacks that exploited cloud cover in the day.

All I can find in Blandford's Target England:


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## Juha (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanks a lot, Hop!
Rather vague, I’d say. A cursory look on the Blitz Then and Now Vol 3 didn’t reveal anything suitable but I’ll try to find out time during next weekend to take a careful look on TBTaN.

Juha


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## Tante Ju (Jun 21, 2011)

Yes this is same book of Blandford. He 177 operation of 1943 touched in these pages.


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## davparlr (Jun 21, 2011)

Hop said:


> According to Hooton in Eagle in Flames the Luftwaffe flew 67 daylight bombing sorties over the UK in 1943. More than half that total was flown in January and February. He says most attacks were at night, although there were some "unsuccessful" attacks that exploited cloud cover in the day.
> 
> All I can find in Blandford's Target England:


 
Probably more to this than meets the eye. The Spitfire Mk IX could easily reach 30k, having tested doing this in 10 min, with the Merlin 61 engine (8 minutes with the 66 or 70 engine), and has a top speed around 400 mph there. Of course there needed to be some anticipation. Perhaps the radar jamming allowed penetration before detection. Of course after the fall of '43, the P-51B Mustang could easily have run down the He having nearly 100 mph overtake at 30k, and the range to do so.


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## Tante Ju (Jun 21, 2011)

Problem: climbing is done at perhaps 300 km/h, why enemy above you at 30 000 feet flies at 500 km/h.. enemy will outrun you and get out of sight by time get to altitude. Top speed may have been 400 mph, but you cant climb and fly at 400 mph at the same time... this is tactics, not technology question.


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 21, 2011)

There was also the Do 19 which could carry almost 4k lbs and was used in the Polish campaign, albeit as a transport instead.

Always found it interesting that Germany was in the fore front of strategic bombers (basic bomber cockpit layout came from them in) in WW1, and had a number of prototypes built and flown during the Reich Years and even more designed, yet only really used very few in numbers.


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## Juha (Jun 22, 2011)

Tante Ju 
fairly fast high flying lone plane was a difficult interception target and He 177 had high max speed for a heavy bomber, but He 177A-5 max level speed at 25,5ton weight (max t/o weight 31 tons) at Steig und Kampf power was not very near 500kmh even at 7500m where its speed graph ends. Its speed was decreasing fast at those heights.

Juha


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## Hop (Jun 22, 2011)

> Rather vague, I’d say. A cursory look on the Blitz Then and Now Vol 3 didn’t reveal anything suitable but I’ll try to find out time during next weekend to take a careful look on TBTaN.



Yes, there's very little about the He177 in Blandford's book. There's a couple of paragraphs before the text I posted, going in to the accidents etc that plagued the development programme. The text I posted is the only stuff on 177 operations in the whole book.

I bought it because Kurfurst, like Tante Ju, kept using it as a source for the invulnerability of Luftwaffe operations over the UK. 

Hooton says the Luftwaffe made 10 daylight bomber sorties over Britain in the summer of 1943, all in July. Unfortunately he only gives losses for combined day and night bombing. He does give details for German recce sorties over Britain in 1943, though:

Month - Sorties - Losses
Jan - 3 - 2
Feb - 23 - 2
Mar - 38 - 3
Apr - 26 - 3
May - 25 - 4
Jun - 12 - 4
Jul - 14 - 6
Aug - 17 - 4
Sep - 25 - 4
Oct - 3 - 1
Nov - 0 - 0 
Dec - 1 - 0
Total - 187 - 33 (17.6%)

No wonder the pilot was nervous. Very nearly half the recce aircraft that set out in July didn't make it back to base. 



> Probably more to this than meets the eye. The Spitfire Mk IX could easily reach 30k, having tested doing this in 10 min, with the Merlin 61 engine (8 minutes with the 66 or 70 engine), and has a top speed around 400 mph there. Of course there needed to be some anticipation. Perhaps the radar jamming allowed penetration before detection.



Yes. From the pilot's own description they weren't particularly high or fast. The very low level of German activity probably helped by reducing RAF readiness.


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## Gixxerman (Jun 23, 2011)

Juha said:


> Hello Tante Ju
> do you mean Edmund Blandford's Target England, Flying With The Luftwaffe in WWII?



Thank you guys, another purchase coming up!


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## davparlr (Jun 23, 2011)

Tante Ju said:


> Problem: climbing is done at perhaps 300 km/h, why enemy above you at 30 000 feet flies at 500 km/h.. enemy will outrun you and get out of sight by time get to altitude. Top speed may have been 400 mph, but you cant climb and fly at 400 mph at the same time... this is tactics, not technology question.


And that is why I said they needed some anticipation.


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## Juha (Jun 26, 2011)

Juha said:


> Thanks a lot, Hop!
> Rather vague, I’d say. A cursory look on the Blitz Then and Now Vol 3 didn’t reveal anything suitable but I’ll try to find out time during next weekend to take a careful look on TBTaN.
> 
> Juha


 
Hello
nothing in The Blitz Then and Now Vol 3, no incident of note in Birmingham during the summer 1943 according to it. Of course it is possible that the 2 bombs did no worthwhile damage but on the other hand according to this site Birmingham in the Blitz: Where the bombs fell - Birmingham in the Blitz news - Birmingham Blitz - In depth - News - Birmingham Mail
the last bomb dropped on Birmingham was dropped 23-24 April 1943.

Juha


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## Vahe Demirjian (Dec 28, 2019)

Thorlifter said:


> Heinkel had the He-274 and He-277, but only a few were built of each. Junkers had the Ju-89, but again, only a couple were built. I'm not sure of any others.


It's known that just two He 274s were built, but the He 277 was never built and references to He 277 prototypes in some older books on Nazi aviation are due to the four-engine He 177B being confused with the He 277, since design work on the He 177B began late August 1943, months after the He 277 was first proposed in February (see Heinkel He 277 - Wikipedia"He_177B"_versus_He_277_controversy). 

Also, Dornier had a pre-WW2 effort at a strategic bomber, the Dornier Do 19, which flew in October 1936, but just three prototypes were built, and the Do 19 never entered production.


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## glennasher (Dec 28, 2019)

I have seen photos of the FW-200 Condor with a broken "spine", where it was stated that it couldn't carry a lot of weight (bombload). Presumably, it wouldn't make a very good long range bomber (in fairness, it was designed as a long distance maritime patrol plane or passenger plane, not as a bomber). It was the attempts to make it do a job it wasn't designed for, that caused the mishaps.


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## Vahe Demirjian (Dec 28, 2019)

A4K said:


> No-ones mentioned the Junkers Ju 287...the V1 had four Jumo 004s, production version planned to have 6 BMW 003s. (at least one V2 was actually built in Russia after the war)



The Ju 287 was only intended as a medium bomber given its size and bombload. The Ju 287 V2 was actually not completed in the USSR after WW2; if you have read Horst Lommel's 2004 book from Schiffer Publishing about the Junkers Ju 287, the V2 was nearing completion in late 1944, but was eventually moved to the edge of a forest at Brandis along with Ju 287 V1, and both V1 and V2 were finally blown up by the Germans near the end of the war to avoid capture by Allied forces. Some remnants of the Ju 287 V2 were, however, used in construction of the EF 131 bomber prototype after WW2, namely the wing sections, which could explain why some older publications on Nazi jet aviation (e.g. Hitchcock's 1974 Monogram publication on the Ju 287) confused the EF 131 with the Ju 287 V2 when claiming that V2 was completed and flown in the USSR after the war, because the EF 131 had six engines like the second Ju 287 prototype and V2 was originally intended to have four jets under the wings and two jets on the forward fuselage before Junkers later decided to have the Ju 287 V2 feature turbojets mounted in triple packs under the wings, as would be conceived for the third Ju 287 prototype, planned Ju 287A-1 production version, and EF 131.

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## Vahe Demirjian (Dec 28, 2019)

stona said:


> I don't believe that any Luftwaffe multi engined bomber flew anywhere near New York but then I believe that man did land on the moon and that the Pentagon was,tragically,hit by an airliner.
> Steve





stona said:


> I don't believe that any Luftwaffe multi engined bomber flew anywhere near New York but then I believe that man did land on the moon and that the Pentagon was,tragically,hit by an airliner.
> Steve


The Bv 238 was only intended for ocean reconnaissance, not strategic bombing, even though Blohm und Voss did propose a landplane bomber version of the Bv 238 as the Bv 250 (see http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/bv250/bv250-1.gif). The plane that some sources claimed flew within 12 miles of New York City was the Junkers Ju 390. However, no conclusive evidence emerged to validate that claim.


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## Admiral Beez (Dec 28, 2019)

wuzak said:


> The Ju 390 was a 6 engine development of the 4 engine Ju 290 transport aircraft.


This is how Hitler or other top Nazis gets to South America.

With the right trade winds (see below), a lightened aircraft and some additional fuel the 10,000 km flight Berlin to Sao Paulo is doable.


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## GrauGeist (Dec 28, 2019)

The amount of fuel needed for the Ju390 to make a trans-Atlantic flight would exeed it's max. take off weight.

The only way top German officials were going to sneak off to South America, was by U-Boat and one did (U-977) and most likely U-3523, although it was later sunk near the Netherlands.


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## Admiral Beez (Dec 28, 2019)

GrauGeist said:


> The amount of fuel needed for the Ju390 to make a trans-Atlantic flight would exeed it's max. take off weight.


Wikipedia has the range as close to what we need, Junkers Ju 390 - Wikipedia

*Combat range:* 9,704 km (6,030 mi, 5,240 nmi) (reconnaissance mission)

We need sufficient fuel and cooperative winds to push the plane another 300 km. If a 3% increase in travel distance requires so much fuel as to exceed max take off weight, how did the LW expect to to reach America with bombs and return?


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## Shortround6 (Dec 28, 2019)

For going to south America the Germans could stage through Madrid. 

However, just compare the Ju 390 to the B-29. A lot more drag, flying at lower altitudes due to no turbos. It's chances of making any of the long range flights that are claimed for it would be zero if it didn't have the magic swastikas painted on it.

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## GrauGeist (Dec 28, 2019)

Admiral Beez said:


> how did the LW expect to to reach America with bombs and return?


The idea was worked on for years and the Amerika Bomber program produced several candidates (including a design by the Horton brothers) but nothing ever came of it.

The most effective design the Germans had, was the A9/A10 missile of the Aggregat family (of which the A2 aka V-2 was one) and could have wreacked havoc on the east coast of the U.S. far better than any bomber.


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