# Air Gunner Aces (1 Viewer)



## Sydhuey (Nov 19, 2010)

There are various lists of pilot aces , books written about them and general hero worship but what about the gunners is there a definitive list of Air Gunner Aces? Why don't they get more recognition? I have found some but there must be more.


Rank- Name- Kills- Unit- Airforce- Aircraft- Gun position

British/Commonwealth:

Frederick Barker- 13- 264- RAF- Defiant
Albert Lippett- 12- 264- RAF- Defiant
John Roberts- 12- 108- RAF- Blenheim
S. B. Johnson- 11- 264- RAF- Defiant
Frederick King- 10- 264- RAF- Defiant
Norman Williams- 8- 10/35 - RAAF - Halifax (Tail Turret)
Henry Jacobs- 8- 219/600- RAF- Blenheim
P. Lillie- 8- 264- RAF- Defiant
Wallace McIntosh- 8 - 207- RAF- Lancaster
L. H. Hayden- 7- 264- RAF- Defiant
C. Sutherland- 7- 207- RAF- Lancaster
?. Bradford- 6- 57- RAF-Lancaster
Peter Engbrecht- 6- 424- RCAF- Halifax(Top Turret)
Robert Turner- 6- 264- RAF- Defiant
Fred Gash- 5- 264- RAF- Defiant
?. Martain- 5- 264- RAF- Defiant
F.W. Wake- 5- 264- RAF- Defiant
J.E.M. Williams- 5- 264- RAF- Defiant

USAAF/US Navy:

S/SGT Michael Arooth- 17- 527 BS 379 BG 8 AF- USAAF- B-17(Tail Gunner)
S/SGT Arthur J. Benko -16- 374 BS 308 BG 14AF- USAAF- B-24(Top Turret)
S/SGT Donald Crossley-12- 95 BG 8 AF- USAAF-B-17 (Tail Gunner)
S/SGT Benjamin F Warner- 9 - 99 BG 12 AF-USAAF- B-17 (Waist Gunner)
S/SGT John B Quinlan -8- 324 BS 91 BG 8 AF/20 AF-USAAF- B-17(5),B-29(3)(Tail Gunner)(Gunner on Memphis Belle)
T/SGT Thomas Dye -8- 51 BS 351 BG 8 AF -USAAF-B-17(Ball Turret)
S/SGT John D. Foley-7+8 prob- 22ND BG 5 AF- USAAF-B-26(Top Turret)
S/SGT John A. Murphy-6- 500 BS 345 BG 5 AF- USAAF- B-25(Top Turret)(all Zero's)
T/SGT Weston (Wes) Loegering-5 -574 BS 391 BG 9 AF -USAAF-B-26 (Top Turret)
SFC Richard H Thomas-5- VPD 117- US Navy-PB4Y (B-24)(Front Turret)
ARM2 Paul Ganshirt-5- VD 3-US Navy-PB4Y(B-24)(Top Turret)

Italian Airforce:

A di B (WOFF1) Pietro Bonannini-8+2 prob- Cant Z 506B Fiat RS14 (Top Turret)(4xSpitfire,3xBlenheim,1xHurricane)

got this from the Air Aces Home page and a couple of US Sqn history pages and various other sources


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## BombTaxi (Nov 19, 2010)

Interesting how many Defiant aces there were, given the reputation the machine has for being generally useless in combat....

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## Kryten (Nov 20, 2010)

probably as a result of the use as a nightfighter for a while?


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## Sydhuey (Nov 20, 2010)

Just about all the Defiant kills were in daylight in early ops before the Germans discovered it had no front guns.

am also finding more Gunner Aces will add to the list soon, couple more Commonwealth gunners and about 8 more American.


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 20, 2010)

I remember researching this a year ago, the USN has officially recognized 2 gunners as aces:

SFC Richard H Thomas was the bow turret gunner on a PB4Y of VPB117 was credited with 5 kills

ARM2 Paul Ganshirt was the top gunner on another PB4Y of VD3 was also credited with 5 kills




http://www.history.navy.mil/avh-vol2/Appen4.pdf


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## steve51 (Nov 20, 2010)

Interesting thread. Is there any information on Axis gunner claims?


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## Sydhuey (Nov 20, 2010)

Thanks VB will add to the list as I expand it out with more info


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## Jabberwocky (Nov 22, 2010)

The fundamental problem with air gunner aces is confirming kills. The problem is an order of magnitude greater than that of fighters, which is already enough to make aviation historians tear their hair out.

Fighter kills to claims range from at worst around 10:1 – Soviets over Kursk, Japanese over Guadalcanal – to 3:1 – Germany in the Battle of Britain, RAF in the lean into France in 1941 – through to about 5:4 at best – the RAF/USAAF in late 1944/early 1945. 

Post war studies of RAF fighter command estimate that just under two out of every three “confirmed” kills actually resulted in an enemy shoot down. This is measured across the 1939-1945 period and more than 11,000 daylight claims. This is with the benefit of gun cameras and wingmen observing kills.

Bomber gunner claims are much harder to confirm and verify than fighter claims.

Part of this is purely the situation; large bomber formations with large amounts of gunners create a situation where if an enemy is hit, multiple gunners will claim a hit/kill. In a bomber box of 20 aircraft, as many as 10-15 gunners could all claim the perceived kill.

Add to this aircraft already damaged/trailing smoke coming through a formation, the tendency of aircraft engines to emit smoke when pushed to full throttle, the habit of pilots to dive away from defensive fire, the general impossibility of bomber gunners witnessing a chute/ground impact, no gun cameras on bomber defensive guns and you can see the problem with confirming the number of aerial gunner claims.

The RAF estimated USAAF bomber gunners in Europe overclaimed at a minimum of 6:1 in 1963. There are multiple instances of unescorted/minimally escorted USAAF bomber missions into France/Low Countries/Germany where claims are upwards of 15 times actual German losses.

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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 22, 2010)

Despite the difficulty in confirming aerial gunner claims, I have the utmost respect for those listed. All enlisted aviators.

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## steve51 (Nov 23, 2010)

FLYBOYJ,

I agree with your stated sentiments. Also, the fact that gunners in general heavily over claimed, does not reflect on any single individual's claims. I'm sure that some gunners deserve all or most of their credits.


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## renrich (Nov 29, 2010)

I would be very surprised if all those Defiant kills actually took place. My guess is that less than 50% is more likely. The gunners and the pilots should have gotten medals for actually going into combat in the Defiant.


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## Njaco (Nov 29, 2010)

among the Luftwaffe, there were 15 Stuka Bordfunkers that recieved the Ritterkreuz. How many kills among them I couldn't find. Here is a partial list....

Ofw. Erwin Hentschel Rudel's rear gunner
Ofw. Ernst Filius - Alwin Boerst's rear-seater I./StG-2
Ofw. Hans Krohn 6./SG 2
Ofw. Walter Linke 3./SG 2
Ofw. Willibald Zipfel 3./SG 2
Ofw. Leonhard Burr 7./StG 77
Ofw. Alois Berndl, III./SG 1 rear gunner
Ofw. Dr.med. Ernst Gadermann, Rudel's rear gunner
Fahnenj.Feldw Gerhard Rothe III./SG 1
Ofw. Franz Hettinger StabsStfl./SG 77
Ofw. Werner Stein I./StG-2


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## Erich (Nov 29, 2010)

probably all on the Ost front and impossible to confirm


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## Njaco (Nov 29, 2010)

yep


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## steve51 (Nov 30, 2010)

Njaco,

Thank you for that list. It never occurred to me to check lists of medal recipients for possible claimers. I'm sure that many claims on the eastern front are unfortunately difficult or impossible to confirm.


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## paradoxguy (Nov 30, 2010)

I don't know if this counts, but there were several gunners on Luftwaffe nightfighters who won the Ritterkreuz, if I recall correctly. One that comes to mind is Wilhelm Gansler (sp?), who flew with Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer through most of Schnaufer's career, although I am not sure if he was the Bordfunker (BF) or gunner. The 3rd person in Schnaufer's crew, Rumpler (his first name escapes me), also won the RK, again not certain if he was the BF or gunner. Manfred Meurer's Bordfunker also won the RK, but I am admittedly not certain if he also served as gunner and how many, if any, kills he registered. Finally I recall late in the war that one prominent Luftwaffe nightfighter ace shot down 9 bombers on one sortie and that his gunner was responsible for 3 of them--'Tino' Becker comes to mind as the ace in question, but I am not certain.

PG


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## Erich (Nov 30, 2010)

dual roles actually Rumpel was Schnafers B/F and not gunner everyone on his crew of course due to the actions of Schnauf received the RK.

Mauer's crewman as a B/F as well as well as Tino's B/F but he also shot down 3 BC heavies, one of them a B-17 which I have a many page account from both from H-G. Johannsen and the BC bomber crew. H-G. also receved the RK very late war.


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## steve51 (Nov 30, 2010)

According to Shores and Cornwell, a gunner on a Do 17 of 1.(f)/22 shot down three attacking Belgian Hurricanes one after another on March 2, 1940. One was destroyed and the pilot KIA while the others crash landed and were repairable. The Belgian pilots are identified in these sources but not the German crew of the Do 17. Shores mentions that the Do 17 suffered 5% damage. Cromwell states that one crewman was wounded.


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## Njaco (Nov 30, 2010)

I believe something very similar happened in July 1940 over the Channel.


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## Sydhuey (Dec 1, 2010)

Have now found 18 British/Commonwealth Gunner aces and 15 US Gunner Aces and 1 Italian Gunner Ace , there must be some other Axis or Russian Gunners with 5 or more kills to add to the list, would like to add some of the Germans but want a kill total, not medal total( they obviously deserve there medals but I would like a list of Gunner aces), I have some more to add the the list in post 1 and will expand the info on each gunner as I find it.


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## Njaco (Dec 1, 2010)

Understood Syd. I posted the RK winners as they must have got a few kills among them. Haven't found any totals yet.


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## bowfin (Jun 9, 2012)

> S/SGT John A. Murphy-6- 500 BS 345 BG 5 AF- USAAF- B-25(Top Turret)(all Zero's)



Five of the six came during a single 40 minute span during one mission. Four more either pancaked or caught a wingtip on the watr's surface and crashed as they tried to avoid his fire and come up underneath the B-25.

When I asked him how he could be certain he was the one who shot down each of those five planes, Jack (John) told me he was the only one left shooting.

This was done on a single engine and the crew chief holding a rag tight like a tourniquet on a leaky fuel line. The crew chief could smell gas, so he had taken an axe to the bulkhead to locate the leak so he could plug it. While he was doing this, a 20mm incendiary shell riccocheted of of one of Murphy's guns (disabling it) passed between his legs and impacts just a few inches above the crew chief's head. Luckily, the shell was a dud and the incendiary composition didn't ignite, although it splattered in the crew chief's face and gave him chemical burns.

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## Gahd4455 (Mar 30, 2013)

renrich said:


> I would be very surprised if all those Defiant kills actually took place. My guess is that less than 50% is more likely. The gunners and the pilots should have gotten medals for actually going into combat in the Defiant.


 
hi there...My Grandfather was Albert Lippett ...I can confirm he was awarded the DFM and his pilot Nick Cooke received the DFC ...Was shot down over Dunkirk ..missing in action....sadly killed a couple of days before strategic decision to switch Defiants to night fighters...


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## drgondog (Mar 30, 2013)

How about a Hybrid. S/SGT Charles Spencer was credited with 4 zero's in PTO, went to flight school and returned as a 2nd LT to 355th FG where he was credited with an Me 262 on 3-22-45. Is not recognized as an ace.


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## jim (Mar 31, 2013)

Erich said:


> probably all on the Ost front and impossible to confirm


 

It is confirmed that Erwin Hentschel flew 1490 combat sorties. Would you ,at least , give him that?


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## FalkeEins (Apr 2, 2013)

paradoxguy said:


> I don't know if this counts, but there were several gunners on Luftwaffe nightfighters who won the Ritterkreuz.. one prominent Luftwaffe nightfighter ace shot down 9 bombers on one sortie and that his gunner was responsible for 3 of them--'Tino' Becker comes to mind as the ace in question, but I am not certain.
> 
> PG



FWIW Karl Johannsen's lengthy account of this sortie is here

 Karl Johannsen's account of his most memorable sortie -


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## Barrett (Oct 10, 2018)

As noted here, veracity of bomber gunner claims is even worse than fighter claims by a huge factor.
But
There is some hard intel. Naturally I cannot find it now, but in researching _Forgotten Fifteenth _I found a 1943-44 document showing demonstrated accuracy of various HB gun positions expressed in mils (group dispersion) at 500 yds or so. The most accurate was the ball turret possibly because that was the first HB position to receive a computing sight. Also, counter-intuitively to I Saw It On The Internet, BTGs had the fewest casualties of all bomber aircrew. Heaviest losses were bomb/navs, who of course were right up front.


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## Greg Boeser (Oct 10, 2018)

Barrett said:


> As noted here, veracity of bomber gunner claims is even worse than fighter claims by a huge factor.
> But
> There is some hard intel. Naturally I cannot find it now, but in researching _Forgotten Fifteenth _I found a 1943-44 document showing demonstrated accuracy of various HB gun positions expressed in mils (group dispersion) at 500 yds or so. The most accurate was the ball turret possibly because that was the first HB position to receive a computing sight. Also, counter-intuitively to I Saw It On The Internet, BTGs had the fewest casualties of all bomber aircrew. Heaviest losses were bomb/navs, who of course were right up front.


The problem with being a bombardier was the armored bulkhead was behind you.


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## Greg Boeser (Oct 10, 2018)

Sydhuey said:


> S/SGT John D. Foley-7+8 prob- 22ND BG 5 AF- USAAF-B-26(Top Turret)


Of "Johnny got a Zero" fame. 22nd BG gunners claimed 94 kills between April 1942 and January 1943 while equipped with B-26s, losing only 6 bombers to fighters. Tainan Kokutai records do not support more than one or two, and one was a collision. But the Japanese did comment on the difficulty in catching those speedy early Marauders.


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## Barrett (Dec 4, 2022)

Late to the party. Here's obviously a partial list of Commonwealth bomber gunners.



Jan J. Safarik: Air Aces Home Page



==

Detailed video bio of Tom McLean, 102 & 617 Sans with 7 originally credited, upgraded to 9.

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