# Parachute killings



## The Basket (Aug 21, 2007)

How widespread was shooting aircrew in their parachutes?After bailing ouf of a doomed aircraft.

Was it ever ordered? 

It certainly happened even though it was supposed to be bad practice.

Makes military sense. Kill pilot and one perhaps skilled capable pilot to be replaced by a novice.


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## drgondog (Aug 21, 2007)

The Basket said:


> How widespread was shooting aircrew in their parachutes?After bailing ouf of a doomed aircraft.
> 
> Was it ever ordered?
> 
> ...



I doubt if ever ordered, I know it happened on both sides and, for Allied side,it was pointed out the stupidity of shooting at a German pilot in a chute when there were so many more USAAF pilots/crews in chutes over Germany in 1943 and early 1944.

In my father's group there was at least one pilot that considered the German pilot to be fair game until he left the ship. He was not unique. Having said that I am unaware of a specific example of an American pilot actually shooting at a german pilot in his chute.

I have heard and read from German pilots that German pilots were killed in a parachute but wondered if he was wounded in the cockpit and died during descent. I would imagine it would be easy to speculate that holes in a parachute and body would be difficult to trace before/after bailout? I have also heard of eyewitness accounts so that would not explain all such possible incidents.

Both sides.


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## ccheese (Aug 21, 2007)

I recall reading a report that Gabreski intentionally shot a German who's
parachure was afire. But only to spare him the long fall. To the Japanese,
a man in a chute was "fair game".

Charles


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## timshatz (Aug 21, 2007)

Heard it happened but it was frowned apon by higher ups and the guys that flew. 

Guys that flew didn't like it 'cause it could be you next. Also, you took yourself out of a fight to buzz around and shoot at some guy floating in a chute. He was not a threat, but one of your own group (or you yourself) could get popped while you are out there wasting time (and ammo). However, some red tailed Mustangs had a reputation for doing it.

Higher ups didn't like it because both sides had prisoners. Start killing one sides prisoners in retailiation for a murder in a chute and you don't know where it will stop. It was an attempt to limit the wholesale murder of unaffecting (at that point) combatants.


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## Marshall_Stack (Aug 21, 2007)

In the book "Death Traps" (about American Tank units) the author mentions an incident where a Luftwaffe pilot was so intent on killing a B-17 crewman in a parachute that he ended up running into the ground (the crewman was unhurt).

I have also read in a book an account by Luftwaffe pilots complaining that P-47 pilots were shooting their pilots in the chute. I never have heard of it anywhere else. As someone mentioned, it would be stupid for the Allies to commit this act when they are over their turf and many Allied pilots are guests of the Luftwaffe.

I imagine that when it did happen that it was more from the rookie pilots. I have read that the rookie soldiers were hardest on the German POWs whereas the veterans felt more compassion since the German soldiers have been suffering the same miseries of war as them.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 21, 2007)

I too have heard about it happening but for the most part I understand that it was few and far that actually did this. The most pilots frowned upon it and it was considered a terrible thing to do.


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## comiso90 (Aug 21, 2007)

It's difficult to envision a level headed flyer from any nation perpetrating such a cowardly act but it's easy to imagine rage filled retaliation motivated by the gruesome death of a friend or family member fueled by propaganda and misinformation.

.


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## ToughOmbre (Aug 21, 2007)

Generally the exception, not the rule. And there were acts of chivalry...

This event occurred in December of 1943 when Charles Brown and the crew of "Ye Olde Pub" were nursing their badly damaged B-17 back home. They happened to fly directly over Oberleutnant Franz Stigler's fighter base. Stigler had already shot down two other B-17s that day and quickly took off and caught up with Ye Olde Pub to make it kill number three.

As Stigler moved in to fire, he noticed how badly damaged the B-17 was. There were gaping holes in the fuselage and half the rudder and horizontal stabilizer was shot off. The tail gunner did not fire, so he closed in and could see blood dripping off the .50 caliber tail guns. Inside, Stigler could see the crew members frantically tending to the wounded. *At that point, he felt that shooting down the aircraft would be like shooting men in their parachutes*.

Stigler pulled up along side the B-17 and motioned for Brown to land in Sweden. However, Brown continued towards home. When they reached the coast, Stigler saluted, pulled up and flew back to base. If his actions had become know, he would have been court-martialed and possibly shot for letting an enemy bomber escape.

Charles Brown and "Ye Olde Pub" made it back to their base in England. Much later, these two former enemies met again and became close friends.


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## Hunter368 (Aug 21, 2007)

drgondog said:


> I doubt if ever ordered, I know it happened on both sides and, for Allied side,it was pointed out the stupidity of shooting at a German pilot in a chute when there were so many more USAAF pilots/crews in chutes over Germany in 1943 and early 1944.
> 
> In my father's group there was at least one pilot that considered the German pilot to be fair game until he left the ship. He was not unique. Having said that I am unaware of a specific example of an American pilot actually shooting at a german pilot in his chute.
> 
> ...



Actually this has been covered here before a few times and proven.

USAF - Yes there was a couple groups that unofficially encouraged shooting German pilots, who flew jets, in their parachutes. Their thought was if they flew jets they had to be aces so lets kill them. Erich knows the groups off by heart. But by far most USAF pilots were against it as a rule.

UK - Never heard that it was encouraged or a rule.

Russia - Well of course they did, they were nearly as bad as the Japanese.

Germany - Never encouraged or made a rule. They were against it always.

Japanese - They were hands down the leaders in parachute kills. 

That all being said there were of course certain cases of of pilots shooting other pilots in their chutes from all countries......but they were the exception and not the rule. Few and far between in most cases, unless you are talking about the Japanese (or Russian) of course.


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## model299 (Aug 21, 2007)

Two specific examples I'm aware of. I read an account of the Polish RAF squadron (In Wings magazine, in their Sentry days.) The article said that Polish pilots had no compunctions about shooting a German pilot in the chute over enemy held territory, much to the horror of the Brits. Their reasoning was that the pilot, if he made it to the ground safely, could come back to kill them later, and made no apologies for it.

The other example I remember from an episode of the old "Wings" show from the history channel. It featured an interview of I believe the late Bud Anderson, pilot of "Old Crow." (Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.) He talked of seeing one of his squadron mates getting shot up while parachuting out of his stricken plane. He became enraged, and chased after that German pilot, "picking at him and picking at him" until the plane was on fire, and the pilot was forced to bail out. He passed by him once, before circling back around to let him have it. He never felt sorry for it, and felt completely justified in his actions.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 21, 2007)

Its a shame that anyone on any side did it.


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## rochie (Aug 21, 2007)

model299 said:


> Two specific examples I'm aware of. I read an account of the Polish RAF squadron (In Wings magazine, in their Sentry days.) The article said that Polish pilots had no compunctions about shooting a German pilot in the chute over enemy held territory, much to the horror of the Brits. Their reasoning was that the pilot, if he made it to the ground safely, could come back to kill them later, and made no apologies for it.
> 
> The other example I remember from an episode of the old "Wings" show from the history channel. It featured an interview of I believe the late Bud Anderson, pilot of "Old Crow." (Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.) He talked of seeing one of his squadron mates getting shot up while parachuting out of his stricken plane. He became enraged, and chased after that German pilot, "picking at him and picking at him" until the plane was on fire, and the pilot was forced to bail out. He passed by him once, before circling back around to let him have it. He never felt sorry for it, and felt completely justified in his actions.


i saw a very similar interview not sure it was anderson though but used very similar language, the guy talked about the rage he felt watching the german pilot going from chute to chute killing aircrew in their parachutes that he pecked away at the aircraft wanting the pilot to bail out, then talked about the damage six 50 cal's could do saying all that was left was mincemeat but he never told anyone about the incedent and regreted it when he calmed down after landing


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## model299 (Aug 22, 2007)

rochie said:


> i saw a very similar interview not sure it was anderson though but used very similar language, the guy talked about the rage he felt watching the german pilot going from chute to chute killing aircrew in their parachutes that he pecked away at the aircraft wanting the pilot to bail out, then talked about the damage six 50 cal's could do saying all that was left was mincemeat but he never told anyone about the incident and regretted it when he calmed down after landing



You're probably more right than I. It's been quite a while since I've seen that episode. My memory isn't the best.


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## KAKI3152 (Aug 23, 2007)

It probably happened more often than is commonly recorded.

I have read in an issue of Flypast how a shot down Typhoon pilot personally witnesed a Bf-109 downng a B-17 over France and then shot every parchute that came out of the B-17. 
I believe it was Clarence Peterson of the 357th FG who killed a Bf-109 pliot in his parachute after witnessing the Bf-109 pliot firing at shot down bomber crewmn in their parachutes.

I think the British were more scrupulous in not shooting at parachutes, but he US fighter groups serving with the 8th 15th AF seem to have done this on quite a few occasions. Obviously, it was not mentioned much because that would tarnish the image of the USAAF. There are certainly plenty of German fighter pilots who describe this as being a common occurence. There was a E-mail on the 12 O'clock site by a Hungarian writer a couple of years back that specifcally mentioned the 31st FG as being notorious for this.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Aug 23, 2007)

I guess those USAF Pilots liked to get "em when they were down.


But was there added rage again'st Japanese pilots in chutes, from the USAF, because many Japanese pilots shot them down in the chutes? 

Same goes for the Germans. I bet they got tired of seeing the Russians shoot at Luftwaffe chutes (I didn't know the Ruskies did this often) and weren't that happy to see a live Russian in a chute, heading towards his mother country. Not saying they shot them, but I'm sure it called for some self restraint on their part.


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## ToughOmbre (Aug 23, 2007)

Let's not get too crazy on parachute killings. I don't like the idea of shooting at a helpless pilot either, but when you think about the many instances on the battlefield of infantrymen killing unarmed prisoners who had surrendered (all sides did it to some degree) for a variety of reasons (battle rage, revenge, logistics, fear etc.), it puts things in perspective. Like I said, I don't like to think about things like that, but it was/is a part of war.


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## timshatz (Aug 24, 2007)

Just finished reading a book on the Marianna's Turkey Shoot. Gave another perspective on Parachute Straffing. Said it was semi-officially ok's until some time in the Fall of '44 when a VF15 pilot bailed out and was machine gunned (fatally) by his own side. Gets confusing up there.


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## Screaming Eagle (Aug 24, 2007)

I wouldn't do it. Once the pilot has bailed out, I no longer consider him a threat.


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## ToughOmbre (Aug 24, 2007)

Screaming Eagle said:


> I wouldn't do it. Once the pilot has bailed out, I no longer consider him a threat.



I probably wouldn't either, but if that pilot lives to fight another day, he is still a threat. 

And if you had just witnessed your own wingman being fired on after he bailed out, you might think differently.

TO


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## Konigstiger205 (Aug 24, 2007)

Lucky for the allied pilots the Luftwaffe had normal people...unlike the SS...anyway the whole idea of shooting a bailed out pilot its like killing a newborn child...


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## ToughOmbre (Aug 24, 2007)

Konigstiger205 said:


> Lucky for the allied pilots the Luftwaffe had normal people...unlike the SS...anyway the whole idea of shooting a bailed out pilot its like killing a newborn child...



That analogy is a little strong. 

Read your own signature. 

As General William Tecumseh Sherman once said, "War is Hell".


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## Konigstiger205 (Aug 24, 2007)

There is a difference between shooting the enemy on the battlefield and shooting someone floating in air like a sitting duck with no means to defend itself.


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## ToughOmbre (Aug 24, 2007)

Konigstiger205 said:


> There is a difference between shooting the enemy on the battlefield and shooting someone floating in air like a sitting duck with no means to defend itself.



I agree with you. 

I was questioning your "newborn child" analogy.

Bad stuff happening is the norm in war. Acts of chivalry are few and far between.

TO


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## Konigstiger205 (Aug 24, 2007)

Well I used the newborn analogy because i think its the best....you are defenseless after parachuting...man to parachute right in the firing range of a battery of 88's...


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## Screaming Eagle (Aug 25, 2007)

ToughOmbre said:


> I probably wouldn't either, but if that pilot lives to fight another day, he is still a threat.
> 
> And if you had just witnessed your own wingman being fired on after he bailed out, you might think differently.
> 
> TO



your're completely right ombre, although I wouldn't know sometime your ethics can change in the heat of battle.


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## fer-de-lance (Aug 25, 2007)

The Japanese started this whole thing during the Sino-Japanese War in 1937. The first confirmed case was over Nanking on Sept. 19, 1937 when the pilot of a Boeing 281 (export version of the P-26) was shot and killed in his parachute by JNAF aircraft. Pilots from both the JNAF and JAAF did this routinely. Later in the war, Chinese and Russian volunteer pilots often delayed opening their parachutes to avoid being strafed. Even after a safe parachute descent, the Japanese could still go after you. In July, 1938, one Russian volunteer, Valentin Dudonov, bailed out and landed on a sand bank in Lake Poyang after a collision with a JNAF A5M. Another A5M came and strafed him on the sand bank. Dudonov had to jump and hide under water in the lake to escape!

The Chinese certainly refrained from the practice. They had learned very early on that the Japanese aircrew was MUCH more valuable alive.

One of the first two Japanese aircrew captured on the second day of the fighting in Shanghai (Aug. 15th, 1937) defected to the Chinese side. This observer from the Kaga Kanko (torpedo bomber) unit was very valuable in helping decrypt JNAF radio traffic. 

The Japanese code of conduct ("bushido": Way of the Warrior) considers being captured a great dishonor. In many Japanese accounts, there is a standard phrase used to describe the person was captured only because he was rendered unconscious (to preserve honor).

Since the dishonor extends to the family of the captured, PoW often preferred not to let their families know and suffer disgrace. During the Japanese civil wars, combattants followed this code of conduct. But once captured, the combattant would have lost everything and, essentially, can not return to his own side. It is not unusual for the prisoner to switch his allegiance to his captors.

The Chinese Air Force took advantage of this and "turned" two JNAF aircrew (the Kaga observer described earlier and a 13th Ku fighter group leader captured a month later) to join their side. Even before Herbert Yardley went to China, the Chinese already had some success breaking Japanese tactical codes. One of the most successful teams was led by a mathematics professor who was trained in M.I.T. Consequently, every effort was made to capture Japanese aircrew (alive) for intelligence purposes. 

It is true that many JNAF and JAAF aircrew chose not to bail out when they could have done so to save their lives. But when they do, it made much more sense to capture Japanese aircrew than to retaliate for Chinese aircrew being shot at in their parachutes.

Sometimes, however, things did not work out so well. Hsu, Chi-hsiang, who later became a squadron leader in the Chinese-American Combined Wing (CACW), recalled an incident of Chinese ground troops shooting a JNAF pilot descending in his parachute. Late in 1939, the Chinese 4th Pursuit Group deployed their I-15bis to Liuchow, Kwangsi to support the Chinese counter offensive to re-take the Kunlun Pass. On Dec. 30th, 1939, thirteen A5M's from the JNAF 14th Ku caught the Chinese while they were coming in to land at Liuchow. A number of I-15bis, including one flown by future ace Lt Chow, Chi-kai, suffered damage. Although the Japanese claimed 14(!) kills, none of the Chinese fighters were actually lost. Hsu recalled that the attacked came so suddenly that most of the Chinese pilots did not even have time to evade. The exception was a junior wingman in Hsu's 23rd Pursuit Squadron Lt Liu, Kai. Li managed to pull behind the A5M of PO2c Fujita, Hiroshi and get in a telling burst using his 4 ShKAS machine guns.

Fujita bailed out of his stricken aircraft and landed near the airfield. After landing in Liuchow, the Chinese pilots crowded around Liu to congratulate him. They then went to the airfield security unit to see if the Japanese pilot was captured. There was even talk about inviting the Japanese pilot to join their New Year celebration. (Quite a few of the Chinese pilots were rookies and had not seen much action up to this point).

Unfortunately, word came back from the airfield security unit that Fujita was dead. One of their men shot the Japanese pilot while he was descending in his parachute ... 

Later in the war (1944-45), when the Chinese and Americans were taking the war to the Japanese airfields far inside Japanese held territory, there were recorded instances of Chinese and Amercian pilots gunning down Japanese aircrew in their parachutes.

Much had happened in the intervening years to embitter those young Chinese pilots who were planning to invite their captured foe to a party. After the JNAF introduced the Zero-sen in September, 1940, many witnessed comrades killed, including quite a number strafed in their parachutes. Hsu himself survived a crash landing in a I-15bis during the combat debut of the Zero-sen Sept. 13, 1940. Others saw or heard accounts of atrocities committed on Chinese civilians ... 

After all of that, it is little wonder that Japanese aircrew in parachutes were considered "fair game" ...


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## Erich (Aug 25, 2007)

I've eyed this thread with caution but I am going to give me 2 cents on the matter. Reich defense pilots of the LW were more intent on shooting down bombers than wasting ammo and time downing unarmed parachuted bomber crewmen. Fact is I think it is pure BS.

on the other hand it was true and even according to P-51 pilots in 44-45 that any and all LW pilots could be "popped", especially jet pilots. Over and over again in the winter of 43-44 LW crews were to bail out at much too low an altitude to safe guard themselves or so it was thought, turn the craft upside down and drop, wait till several hundred feet if that and open the chute. Interviewed half a dozen SturmFw pilots that were all shot down at least once, this was the idea or so they thought. some pretty interesting stories bailing out low over a winter countryside, smashing into 100 foot tall conifirs and then trying to down climb them busting off branches on the way down.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Aug 26, 2007)

On a day like D-day, I wouldn't blame a lot of German gunners shooting down pilots, since lots of airborne troops were landing all around, I'm sure they couldn't tell.

Not that I don't feel sorry for the Allied paratroopers, but they did have guns, so they were a big threat to the Germans on the ground.


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## comiso90 (Aug 26, 2007)

This may be a dumb question but is gunning down a man in a parachute as simple as it seems? I think it would take a lot of effort to line up at the right angle, allow for the parachutes drift and target fixation. No one want a prop full of silk. 

_I admit that i've tried it in il-2 sturmovick sim and it's not easy!_

Like Erich said... thats a lot of ammo. If I'm over Germany, I'd rather save my rounds for the trip home.

.. unless of course I saw I buddy hit the silk and get pummeled by one of the bad guys... GAME ON.. I'd expend a few rounds to right some wrongs!!

.


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## Watanbe (Aug 26, 2007)

I remember watching a doco on the battle of britain. During an interview with a British pilot he mentioned the Polish pilots sometimes shooting at Germans in their parachutes. Someone mentioed the reasoning for this being considering that they would potentially shoot them down in the future. I doubt this, I think more likely it was driven by intense hatred. But I mean its a touchy subject with little info, generally its covered up as a dark area. Im sure it happend on both sides. 

I also think that if my best mate or wingman got shot in cold blood in his chute, the emotions would unleash and I wouldnt have an issue opening up on his killer.


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## d_bader (Aug 27, 2007)

I have heard stories of Luftwaffe pilots shooting Polish pilots in their parachutes in the German invasion of Poland. So the Polish pilots that escaped to Britain, most likely wanted revenge. 

I cans strongly feel for the Polish pilots for they were fighting people who had mercilessly bombed their towns to rubble, destroyed their country and treated them as dirt. 

I am English so am not that biased towards Poland, but I am sure that if any person wa sput in that situation, that they would do the same. Especially if you knew that the pilot in the parachute might have killed an innocent civilian relative in Poland.


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## Watanbe (Sep 1, 2007)

d_bader I agree with you entirely, Im not trying to condemn the Polish, rather introducing the fact that Polish pilots were known to do it. In fact I have total respect for the courage and tenacity of the Polish forces. What the Polish gave to the Germans was nothing compared to what they got.

War isnt a pretty thing and while the ignorant public perception is that it was always thought in an honourable and fair manner. Also the general belief that the Germans were always bad and the Allies were always good isnt necessarily true.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 2, 2007)

Well, the Polish probably realized that any German pilots parachuting over Britain would likely be captured and end up in a prison camp. In the channel, it's less sure, but the Germans didn't have large operations like the B-24 pickups for downed pilots, did they?


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## Cub Driver (Sep 3, 2007)

_It's difficult to envision a level headed flyer from any nation perpetrating such a cowardly act_

Actually a very rational act. If you kill the pilot today--parachuting over his own ground--he won't be up there tomorrow to kill you. If the RAF were less likely to strafe parachuting German pilots, that's probably because the RAF were more often defending their own turf, where the pilot going down was going to be captured or killed by Dad's Army. The American fighter pilots by contrast were more likely to be fighting over Germany, where a downed pilot could get a beer and another plane. That seems to me a more serious risk than the hypothetical one that I or my buddies might be in the same position tomorrow--we are, after all, immortal.

The Japanese up to 1942 were always fighting over enemy territory, hence in a position to profit from strafing parachutes. And they did: Paul Greene of the AVG Flying Tigers was strafed in his chute at Rangoon (he survived) and Bert Christman was killed in his parachute or while attempting to bail out. 

Note also that the Japanese pilots wouldn't have the same feeling about the act. To them, bailing out might be considered the cowardly act, since it was dishonorable to surrender. (That wouldn't of course apply to Greene and Christman, but the strafer probably wasn't thinking things through.) For the most part, Japanese pilots didn't bail out, and some chose not to carry parachutes.

There were a few instances of Japanese crews over Burma who bailed out, but it may be instructive that the one man who I've been able to trace from airplane through prison camp to back home was by nationality a Korean, known as Rhee Geun-seok in Korean air force service. He became the first commander of the Korean air force academy, and in 1950 was killed while strafing a North Korean tank column south of Seoul.

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Now available: Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942


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## Cub Driver (Sep 3, 2007)

Note also that it is always the Other who is strafing parachutings, and the more Other he is, the more likely we are to believe that he plinked men in their shrouds (what a name!). Thus the Japanese are the worst, and close to them the Russians. Germans are more likely perps than Allied pilots, and of Allied pilots, the Poles are notorious for it but can be forgiven. They don't speak English, after all! Blue skies! -- Dan Ford


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## Watanbe (Sep 6, 2007)

I think its more an issue of hatred, passion and revenge rather than a strategic consideration.


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## Smokey (Sep 6, 2007)

I read about a Japanese pilot throwing a life ring to a pilot he had just shot down. The pilot waved back, but sdaly was never found


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## drgondog (Sep 6, 2007)

Cub Driver said:


> Note also that it is always the Other who is strafing parachutings, and the more Other he is, the more likely we are to believe that he plinked men in their shrouds (what a name!). Thus the Japanese are the worst, and close to them the Russians. Germans are more likely perps than Allied pilots, and of Allied pilots, the Poles are notorious for it but can be forgiven. They don't speak English, after all! Blue skies! -- Dan Ford



My father allegedly made a couple of speeches to new pilots (and some older ones) that went like this.

"For those of who who think it's Ok to shoot a guy in his chute, reflect that there are a lot more of our guys in chutes over Germany (bomber crews) to start that kind of war"

German civilans probably killed far more USAAF crews than LW shot up in Chutes -


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 7, 2007)

That was kind of the Japanese pilot. Too bad the US airman didn't survive so they could meet again, years later.

Those German Civilians could be terrifying for a wounded pilot. They had gruesome things like pitchforks and scyths and rocks and rope. And when they mob you, those angry Frauleins and their children, even a grown man ought to run and hide or hope some kind Nazi soldier comes along. But I guess those air crews were giving them quite a pounding from the air, so they weren't given much sympathy from the population.

The British population was nicer in BOB, weren't they?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 8, 2007)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> That was kind of the Japanese pilot. Too bad the US airman didn't survive so they could meet again, years later.
> 
> Those German Civilians could be terrifying for a wounded pilot. They had gruesome things like pitchforks and scyths and rocks and rope. And when they mob you, those angry Frauleins and their children, even a grown man ought to run and hide or hope some kind Nazi soldier comes along. But I guess those air crews were giving them quite a pounding from the air, so they weren't given much sympathy from the population.
> 
> The British population was nicer in BOB, weren't they?



I think you could be overstating it a bit...


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## Konigstiger205 (Sep 8, 2007)

Adler is right...there is a huge difference between the BoB and the bombing campaign of Germany's cities...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 8, 2007)

That was not my point...


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 8, 2007)

Well, I was saying that the German civilians were more dangerous to downed Allied airmen than British civilians were to downed Axis airmen, even though both of them may not apreciate an enemy pilot in their wheatfield, and both probably had grudges agains't him. And the BOB was an attack on all of England.


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## mad_max (Sep 8, 2007)

A thread like this gets all kinds of thoughts going. I probably shouldn't touch it, but...

Pete Peterson was the pilot who pecked at the German pilot. Obie O'Brian has told me
that there were a few pilots that wouldn't of thought twice doing this, but didn't say
he knoew anyone that did.

Did it happen...of course. I'm sure most rational pilots wouldn't do this unless something triggered
a mental lapse and rage ensued.

Alot of finger pointing going on that I have no idea on, but my Wife's a Belarussian and
on my visits to her home country I've seen a number of monuments to the atrocities done
to the Russian Civilians by the German SS Squads that no wonder they became hated
by atleast the Belorussians. I'd say more German Pilots were killed by Civilians than the VVS
shooting them in their chutes.

No wonder the Russians did what they did to the German towns and people. Eye for an
eye..Tooth for a tooth. That's what it was. After this they thought all German's were
evil...they didn't realize that a Mad Man was teaching and leading them.

This link is to the most famous of the monuments. Let me tell you it was a somber place.
Where every home stood there is a stone column with a bell at
the top. One would ring here, then a min later another would ring across the field.
I had chills up my spine, my heart sank and tears were welling up in my eyes. Alot
of thoughts ran through my mind...the worst one is knowing that somewhere this
was happening now and more would come about in the future.

There always will be a mad man somewhere on Earth.  

"Khatyn" - The tragedy of Khatyn


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## Konigstiger205 (Sep 9, 2007)

That is true unfortunately mad_max but its up to us to never allow a mad man to gain power as for the Germans there where victims of their own regime....my country experienced communism for more than 50 years and there's not much of a difference between a nazi regime and a soviet one...so like I said its up to us to never allow anything like this to happen...


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## Aussie1001 (Sep 9, 2007)

That is a very sad story....
There are two ways to look at this i believe the view point of a computer or the view point of a human...
Computer- dont give a dam about him but if i kill him now he doesn't come back up tomorrow to have a go at me againe.....
Human- Better not if i don't he might encourage his mates not to as well...
And i would sure hate to be in his position if i decied to do it....
this is how i see it anyhow....


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 10, 2007)

Well Aussie, you have summed up the Golden Rule.

If you shot a German in the chute, his buddy might come back and shoot your buddy in the chute, or you.


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## rogthedodge (Sep 11, 2007)

A couple of points - cross racial conflicts are typically more brutal / less 'honourable' than those within the same racial groups; hence allies Japan, germany Russia being more brutal than allies germany (largely an Anglo-Saxon war)

Certainly the Poles/Czechs saw no reason not to shoot at chutes but decency aside it was pointed out to them that in the BoB downed pilots were going to be captured anyway.

On civilians killing pilots it certainly happened - I've read of RAF pilots being rescued from mobs by passing Luftwaffe personnel. Many however were killed by civilians on landing.

It certainly happened in the UK too but being more densely populated downed LW aircrew were more likely to fall into official hands before harm could come to them. Not sure I'd rely on the fair-play of local Home Guard units though.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 12, 2007)

Gaw, you bloody well bombed my barn!


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## rogthedodge (Sep 12, 2007)

Put me in mind of a story and old boy told me when I kid:

LW plane crash land on the hills of North Wales on a dark night miles from anywhere and the pilot is confronted by a local Home Guard soldier.

HG soldier is shouting at him in Welsh*, poor LW guy hasn't a clue and continues walking forwards as Welshman points rifle, works the bolt etc. 
God knows what the LW guy must have thought. AFAIK no blood was spilt.

* unlike any language you've ever heard, it's 000's of years old. Back then many 'ordinary' N Walians had little English.


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## TenGunTerror (Jun 30, 2009)

Marshall_Stack said:


> In the book "Death Traps" (about American Tank units) the author mentions an incident where a Luftwaffe pilot was so intent on killing a B-17 crewman in a parachute that he ended up running into the ground (the crewman was unhurt).



I read in the same book (I think it was that book) that the AAA gunners would shootdown parachuting airmen much to the dismay of the citizens. Back to the 'Chute Shooting' though, pilots didn't normally do this because it was cowardly and the pilot was no longer a threat so why bother?


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## drgondog (Jun 30, 2009)

Hunter368 said:


> Actually this has been covered here before a few times and proven.
> 
> USAF - Yes there was a couple groups that unofficially encouraged shooting German pilots, who flew jets, in their parachutes. Their thought was if they flew jets they had to be aces so lets kill them. Erich knows the groups off by heart. But by far most USAF pilots were against it as a rule.
> 
> ...



Again, sorces for your comments? It is one thing to extract from a personalWWII anecdotal story, another to document incident and investigation.

BTW - one of my uncles was shot and killed at Nijmegan by German soldiees while hanging in a tree - and another was part of an Ranger execution event at Dachau where the dumb young German guards were still hanging around when the 5th Rangers liberated Dachau.

It happened but stories and verified incidents are different discussions.


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## Butters (Jul 1, 2009)

This is from Tom Blackburn's, "The Jolly Rogers"*

Page 240: "Rog cold-bloodedly closed to within 100 yards and fired all his guns into the Zeke's wing root and engine. The Zeke's canopy slid back and the pilot hurtled into the slipstream just before the plane caught fire. Rog strafed the chute, but his shots probably only bracketed it."

Page 247-248: "As the gray fog evaporated, I spotted the recently blossomed parachute. I swung back to finish off the Japanese pilot; if I didn't, I reasoned, he probably would be up to meet us the next day -- smarter, and look for me. Unbelievably the harness was empty. A closer look at the dangling straps revealed that they had burned through. At that moment, it was not at all pleasant to think about the Japanese pilot's 18,000-foot unarrested dirve to the surface."

* Pocket Books paperback ISBN 0-671-69493-6

JL


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## drgondog (Jul 1, 2009)

Butters said:


> This is from Tom Blackburn's, "The Jolly Rogers"*
> 
> Page 240: "Rog cold-bloodedly closed to within 100 yards and fired all his guns into the Zeke's wing root and engine. The Zeke's canopy slid back and the pilot hurtled into the slipstream just before the plane caught fire. Rog strafed the chute, but his shots probably only bracketed it."
> 
> ...



I wasn't saying it didn't happen - what I did say is that the evidence is anecdotal so, in absence of any official investigation/reports, it is impossible to obtain either the magnitude or the patterns...

You made very specific allegations and comments that you haven't cited references for - such as "USAF - Yes there was a couple groups that unofficially encouraged shooting German pilots, who flew jets, in their parachutes."

Sources???

Most USAAF pilots understood there were a lot more B-17 and B-24 crews drifting around as easy targets than LW pilots so nobody was 'encouraging' their squadrons to shoot guys in chutes. I suspect if word of that practice 'drifted around' that 8th AF Command would come down on those Group CO's like a ton of bricks.

The second major issue of an 'unofficial policy' like that is the POW 'problem' if you start banging away at LW pilots in chutes. 

Understand that I KNOW it happened on both sides - what I am pulling the 'BS Flag' on is your comment that USAF had a policy to shoot LW pilots in chutes... even limited to 'one or two groups'

EDIT - this Last comment was directed to Hunter368 - not to Butter 


If you have evidence to the contrary I really would like to see it.


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## Butters (Jul 1, 2009)

Are you talking to me? in case you haven't noticed, the above is the only post I made on the subject. As for allegations, specific or otherwise, the only one I'm making is that you seem to be imagining things.

Talk about 'BS flags'...

JL


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## drgondog (Jul 1, 2009)

Butters said:


> Are you talking to me? in case you haven't noticed, the above is the only post I made on the subject. As for allegations, specific or otherwise, the only one I'm making is that you seem to be imagining things.
> 
> Talk about 'BS flags'...
> 
> JL



Butters - you are right. I was referring to Hunter368 remarks and his anecdotal references and you jumped in with another anecdotal comment.

My BS flag was directed to Hunter but you are welcome to pick it up.


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