# war crimes commited by wehrmacht



## JugBR (Sep 13, 2008)

does german soldiers just commited war crimes when they had an order to do it(like in russian front wheres hitler ordered a violent and genocide war against ussr) or they was out of control in the heat of war doing what they want ?

does the ethics and disciplin of prussian military tradition is a mith or a reality ?


----------



## B-17engineer (Sep 13, 2008)

I think it may have been a little of both....


----------



## Thorlifter (Sep 13, 2008)

Overall, the wehrmacht were only taking orders. Sure, there were some that were more Nazi than German soldier. Now with the SS, I think it's reverse of that.


----------



## Marcel (Sep 13, 2008)

SS were no soldiers, they were political terrorists. The Wehrmacht in general were decent people, just soldiers fighting for their fatherland. The SS were swine.


----------



## GrauGeist (Sep 13, 2008)

The SS were originally a military arm of the Nazi leaders, and as such, reflected thier twisted ideology everywhere they went.

The Wehrmacht was a soldier's organization, and had a better track record in humanities than the SS. The exception would be the Russian front, where both sides did horriffic acts against each other, and the poor civilians got caught in their midst and paid heavily.

There were many times though, where the Wehrmacht needed to fall back and consolidate thier lines during the course of battle, and the SS (who's manpower would have helped the Wehrmacht's considerably) would open fire on the Wehrmacht from the safety of the rear.

Also plenty of cases on the Western front where Wehrmacht medics went to the aid of wounded Allied soldiers when they didn't need to.


----------



## magnocain (Sep 13, 2008)

The two options given are pretty extreme.


----------



## Njaco (Sep 14, 2008)

I couldn't decide either.

The Wehrmacht were regulars - just soldiers and sometimes in the heat of battle tempers can flare. No different than in any other army.

The SS - and not necessarily the frontline soldier - were under orders to be ruthless and ordered to act in certain ways. At the beginning of the war these units had strict requirements, i.e., Aryan bloodline, Nazi doctrine - so it was no problem following orders no matter how bloody or vicious. This changed as the war went on and "other" people joined the SS. Rules were relaxed. 

But there is a difference between Wehrmacht and SS.


----------



## Lucky13 (Sep 15, 2008)

I think that SS has a lot more to answer for than the Wehrmacht... But. you also had some Divisions of the SS that earned a good reputation form the allies like Wiking and Nordland....
On the other hand you have Das Reich, Totenkopf, Adolf Hitler and that later "division" that they put together that was nothing but murderers and rapists in uniform....can't remember the name of it....was it Dirlewanger? Maybe not....


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 15, 2008)

I do not think the poll answers are very well thought out. Sorry Jug, no offense to you...

I think others here have already covered it pretty well.


----------



## Ramirezzz (Sep 15, 2008)

well it's a VERY tough issue. For a Russian especially..
just some personal thoughts:
a village near the place where my father was born , some 20 miles southeast of Tula ,was completely destroyed in the winter of 1941. All male inhabitants were shot , women were later been used as slave workers in Germany. Some died of hunger during the same winter.
No SS troops were there at that time.
There're were thousands and thousands of such villages in Russia, Ukraine and Belorussia.
Although I'm not saying all or even most of Wehrmacht troops were cold blood killers, not at all. 
But it was not the sauber Wehrmacht as someone could probably imagine either.


----------



## Erich (Sep 15, 2008)

sorry but this topic needs to be closed, it will in short time go nowhere with a visciousness that we really do not need here


----------



## B-17engineer (Sep 15, 2008)

ok ..


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 16, 2008)

Ramirezzz said:


> well it's a VERY tough issue. For a Russian especially..
> just some personal thoughts:
> a village near the place where my father was born , some 20 miles southeast of Tula ,was completely destroyed in the winter of 1941. All male inhabitants were shot , women were later been used as slave workers in Germany. Some died of hunger during the same winter.
> No SS troops were there at that time.
> ...



The Eastern Front was certainly brutal by all means. Both sides comitted great atrocities against one another. It was probably the scene of the worst of the worst both sides had to offer.


----------



## mkloby (Sep 16, 2008)

I agree with Erich that there is really no value to be taken away from this thread.

Marcel - many of the SS troops were EXCELLENT soldiers, all else aside.


----------



## Amsel (Sep 16, 2008)

Total war is hell. Once the politics are forgotten it is what it is, total war. Soldiers are not politicians. The crimes against humanity are vast and both sides are guilty. Every "war crime" was answered by the opposing force with equal viciousness. If one could be totally analytical he could see this for themselves.

The Eastern front was reduced to a savagry that is truly animalistic in nature and I hope the western world has learned some lessons from the conflict.


----------



## Soren (Sep 16, 2008)

In terms of committing war crimes the Wehrmacht were no more frequent at it than any other western army, and less frequent than the Soviets. 

Then there's the Waffen SS however, there's no doubt that they commited war crimes, but mostly in the east and ofcourse under strict orders. BUT despite what many think the average Waffen SS soldier was just like any other in the world but part of the Nazi parti and a strong follower of its ideology, not evil or twisted, just convinced into a different ideology. 90% if not more knew little to nothing about the concentration camps, and they often dismissed it as rumors, afterall they were fighting for a good cause (They believed). 

No the real bad guys were the specially formed shooting squads within the SS which were called upon for liquidation of prisoners or innocent civilians, these were slime and many of them were convicted criminals. These shooting squads were formed out of necessity as it was found that the regular Waffen SS soldier would break down and/or commit suicide if given the same task, which is no surprise.

That having been said the Waffen SS itself definitely did commit a number of war crimes, involving burning down towns and shooting civilians, but mostly these were provoked by Partizan attrocities. A number of villages were burned down and the inhabitants shot after the Germans had found the mutilated bodies of their fellow soldiers with their eyes cut out, ears ripped off castrated by Partizans. This often drived them straight into bloodrush and rampage against nearby villages where they suspected the Partizans were situated. And these things still happen today, namely in Iraq Afghanistan where US soldiers have gone beserk against civilians a number of times already after having been provoked by the taliban.

As already mentioned war is hell!


----------



## syscom3 (Sep 16, 2008)

Soren, the "SS" troops had a well deserved (and proven) reputation for atrocities and war crimes being commited far from the battlefield.

How would you justify in saying some Jewish infants from Holland managed to provoke the SS troopers into commiting genocide?


----------



## Amsel (Sep 16, 2008)

syscom3 said:


> Soren, the "SS" troops had a well deserved (and proven) reputation for atrocities and war crimes being commited far from the battlefield.
> 
> How would you justify in saying some Jewish infants from Holland managed to provoke the SS troopers into commiting genocide?




I believe he was refering to the Waffen SS Panzergrenadiers. The SS were hardcore soldiers and police.


----------



## Soren (Sep 16, 2008)

syscom3 said:


> Soren, the "SS" troops had a well deserved (and proven) reputation for atrocities and war crimes being commited far from the battlefield.
> 
> How would you justify in saying some Jewish infants from Holland managed to provoke the SS troopers into commiting genocide?



I'm talking about the Waffen SS syscom3, not the SS Totenkopfverbände, Germanic SS or Allgemeine SS, there's a BIG difference!

The last three, and esp. the SS Totenkopfverbände, were responsible for the attrocities you mention (NOT the Waffen SS which were combat troops) and also formed the shooting squads I talked about. Like I said these guys were slime! 

Don't mix the attrocities of the other SS branches (concentration camps, mass executions etc etc) with the Waffen SS, the Waffen SS were combat troops.

That having been said the Waffen SS did commit war crimes, like I said earlier, but mostly when provoked into it and they weren't alone in doing it either, the Allies made their fair share as-well. 

Finally I'm not trying to justify anything, like I said war is hell, always has been always will be.


----------



## stasoid (Sep 16, 2008)

_Then there's the Waffen SS however, there's no doubt that they commited war crimes, but mostly in the east and ofcourse under strict orders. BUT despite what many think the average Waffen SS soldier was just like any other in the world but part of the Nazi parti and a strong follower of its ideology, not evil or twisted, just convinced into a different ideology. 90% if not more knew little to nothing about the concentration camps, and they often dismissed it as rumors, afterall they were fighting for a good cause (They believed). 
No the real bad guys were the specially formed shooting squads within the SS which were called upon for liquidation of prisoners or innocent civilians, these were slime and many of them were convicted criminals. These shooting squads were formed out of necessity as it was found that the regular Waffen SS soldier would break down and/or commit suicide if given the same task, which is no surprise._


So, it's just few bad guys managed to kill 17 millions civilians on the territiry of the USSR? Is that what you're saying? Well, they must've been very fast shooters.


_A number of villages were burned down and the inhabitants shot after the Germans had found the mutilated bodies of their fellow soldiers with their eyes cut out, ears ripped off castrated by Partizans._


Old Goebbels propaganda becomes more and more popular these days.

Have you heard of Hitler's doctrine of "living space"? He came up with this idea long before the war.

Lebensraum (German for "habitat" or literally "living space") served as a major motivation for Nazi Germany's territorial aggression. In his book Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler detailed his belief that the German people needed Lebensraum (for a Grossdeutschland, land, and raw materials), and that it should be taken in the East. *It was the stated policy of the Nazis to kill, deport, or enslave the Polish, Russian and other Slavic populations*, whom they regarded as Untermenschen, and to repopulate the land with reinrassig Germanic peoples. The entire urban population was to be exterminated by starvation, thus creating an agricultural surplus to feed Germany and allowing their replacement by a German upper class.

Lebensraum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And his other doctrine the "Final Solution" had contributed to the total death toll too. In my hometown there is a massgrave of estimated 100.000 people (mostly Jews) executed during the occupation between 1941-43.


----------



## Njaco (Sep 16, 2008)

Stas, I don't think there is any argument what Hitler wanted his army to do. And armies of all sides participated in atrocities throughout the war. But there was a distinct difference between the Waffen SS and other branches of the SS.




> So, it's just few bad guys managed to kill 17 millions civilians on the territiry of the USSR? Is that what you're saying?



Those guilty include Stalin.


----------



## Thorlifter (Sep 16, 2008)

Erich said:


> sorry but this topic needs to be closed, it will in short time go nowhere with a visciousness that we really do not need here



I think I'm going to agree with Erich..........

Look, I'm not an admin, but I would strongly urge you guys to walk a tight rope in this thread. Just some friendly advise.


----------



## syscom3 (Sep 16, 2008)

Soren, an SS unit is an SS unit.

They came across civilians they didnt like and they either executed them or sent them to the camps.


----------



## Soren (Sep 16, 2008)

Stasoid, 

Have you got any clue how many jews, communists slavic people were killed in concentration camps ?? It was the far majority!

And yes, considering the amount of men needed to run a concentration camp they were indeed VERY effective when it came to getting rid of people, but they were manned by other branches within the SS such as the Totenkopfverbände, and NOT the Waffen SS. The Waffen SS were combat troops and had nothing to do with the concentration camps, it is important you understand this.

The Waffen SS consisted of regular people just like any other army, but they were members of the nazi parti and followers of its ideology. They believed they fought for a good righteous cause, which is understandable as hardcore propoganda was forced down their throats each and every day. And note that, just like the Wehrmacht, the Waffen SS weren't told of the concentration camps and mass extermination of jews for very obvious reasons: It could result in a massive drop in moral, mass mutiny and a cease in belief in the state rule. The other branches within the SS were there for this very reason, including the shooting squads which were formed to conduct tasks you just couldn't get any others to do. 

In short it was the SS Totenkopfverbände, Allgemeine SS Germanic SS which were the real bad guys, true slime on earth, carrying out some of history's worst crimes against humanity.


----------



## Soren (Sep 16, 2008)

syscom3 said:


> Soren, an SS unit is an SS unit.
> 
> They came across civilians they didnt like and they either executed them or sent them to the camps.



That isn't true syscom3. The Totenkopfverbände, Germanic SS Allgemeine SS stood for the concentration camps and mass executions, NOT the Waffen SS. Is that really so hard to comprehend ?


----------



## Amsel (Sep 16, 2008)

To some people every German is Hitler. I find it amazing how many cannot differentiate between a murderer and a good soldier. Anti-German propaganda has been on the rise for 20 years. It seems that social engineering is working and common sense has flown the coop.

When armies face each other the men on both sides have the same virtues and dreams for the most part.


----------



## m kenny (Sep 16, 2008)

2nd SS, Oradour-sur-Glane, 1st SS, Stavelot ect


----------



## JugBR (Sep 17, 2008)

Amsel said:


> *To some people every German is Hitler*. I find it amazing how many cannot differentiate between a murderer and a good soldier. Anti-German propaganda has been on the rise for 20 years. It seems that social engineering is working and common sense has flown the coop.
> 
> When armies face each other the men on both sides have the same virtues and dreams for the most part.



the irony; hitler was austriac...


----------



## Freefalling (Sep 17, 2008)

Soren said:


> That having been said the Waffen SS itself definitely did commit a number of war crimes, involving burning down towns and shooting civilians, but mostly these were provoked by Partizan attrocities. A number of villages were burned down and the inhabitants shot after the Germans had found the mutilated bodies of their fellow soldiers with their eyes cut out, ears ripped off castrated by Partizans. This often drived them straight into bloodrush and rampage against nearby villages where they suspected the Partizans were situated. And these things still happen today, namely in Iraq Afghanistan where US soldiers have gone beserk against civilians a number of times already after having been provoked by the taliban.
> 
> As already mentioned war is hell!



At the risk of hijacking the thread how can you compare the Waffen SS to US soldiers of today? What evidence do you have of US troops repeatedly going "beserk" against civilians in Afghanistan? Your comparison is poor and I believe you to be wrong.

Something that I may have missed (if it was already discussed in the thread, I apologize) is that societal norms and values were a bit different in WWII than they are now. We're looking at the events through our eyes and experiences and not those from 70 years ago. I don't say this to justify any actions, but to try and understand them. War and our thought processes concerning it have changed a great deal since then.


----------



## seesul (Sep 17, 2008)

On August 29,1944, when 9 4 engine bombers were shot down over my town, the wehrmacht soldiers killed few crewmembers on the ground after they bailed out. One of them, wounded on his neck, was hanging on a tree on his parachute. One German soldier shot him death by pistol. Another one went out from a woods, unhurt, with his hands up and they shot him death by machine gun.

Then the wehrmacht soldiers collected the RESTS of the US KIA airmen, posed with them and toke a lot of picters, smiling and celebrating the VICTORY... No one else sadists can make such things. There exist few pictures of this event as the photographer from our town made few copies of those pics and showed them after the war was over. A friend of mine is going to scan them for me so as soon as I have them I´ll post them.


----------



## KrazyKraut (Sep 17, 2008)

seesul said:


> On August 29,1944, when 9 4 engine bombers were shot down over my town, the wehrmacht soldiers killed few crewmembers on the ground after they bailed out. One of them, wounded on his neck, was hanging on a tree on his parachute. One German soldier shot him death by pistol. Another one went out from a woods, unhurt, with his hands up and they shot him death by machine gun.
> 
> Then the wehrmacht soldiers collected the RESTS of the US KIA airmen, posed with them and toke a lot of picters, smiling and celebrating the VICTORY... No one else sadists can make such things. There exist few pictures of this event as the photographer from our town made few copies of those pics and showed them after the war was over. A friend of mine is going to scan them for me so as soon as I have them I´ll post them.


Sorry to disappoint you but how about Canadian troops that basically tortured German POWs to death by having the completely exhausted men march through rivers (not allowing them to use the bridges that were right by) until they drowned. And we are talking about pretty high numbers here. Whole groups. How is that any better?

And these allied bomber crews destroyed whole German cities (including for example the town where I was born). Hundred thousands of old men, women and children burnded to their deaths. I don't want to excuse what happened on that instance you talk about, but I try to see it from the perspective of the soldiers then, not with a comfortable 60+ years of peace in between.


----------



## B-17engineer (Sep 17, 2008)

And when did you hear about that?


----------



## KrazyKraut (Sep 17, 2008)

The incidence I described above was told in a documentary by former Candian officer directly involved, I'll try to dig it up.

EDIT: Was easy to dig up:
Canadian commander, Jacques Dextraze, recalls: 

"I used to tell my men, "Your job is to kill the enemy, that's your principal job. But the minute an enemy comes out with his hands up in the air, you must respect him, and you must protect him, and you must ensure that this man is as protected as your own men." 

Yet, he also explains that sometimes it was clear that not all POW's were treated so well: 

"We crossed the river - the bridge had been blown up. Take the little city by the rear. Eighty five prisoners we take. I select an officer, "take them back to the P.W. cage". He goes back, making them run, to the bridge that we had...a farmer's bridge that we had come over you know. These guys had been running for a couple of miles. They came to the bridge (bad cut) No no, you don't take the bridge, you swim. Now these guys fell...went into that water you know. Most of them drowned. Imagine having run you know, they had been fighting before, running you know for a couple of miles, and then the water you know. Now, they were picked up by the engineers rebuilding the bridge. I could have been accused of not having protected them. I'm responsible for these prisoners you see. I felt very bad when I saw them all piled up beside the bridge. I didn't like that very much."

Issues : POWs - World War Two


----------



## seesul (Sep 17, 2008)

KrazyKraut said:


> Sorry to disappoint you but how about Canadian troops that basically tortured German POWs to death by having the completely exhausted men march through rivers (not allowing them to use the bridges that were right by) until they drowned. And we are talking about pretty high numbers here. Whole groups. How is that any better?
> 
> And these allied bomber crews destroyed whole German cities (including for example the town where I was born). Hundred thousands of old men, women and children burnded to their deaths. I don't want to excuse what happened on that instance you talk about, but I try to see it from the perspective of the soldiers then, not with a comfortable 60+ years of peace in between.



Who said the war crimes were done by Germans only? Me? No way!

I just posted the story that hapen 5 miles away from my born town and father of a friend of mine was the eye witness of this event. Wait until I show you the pics of German soldiers towing the rests of bodies with no heads, the human remains as legs and arms on the ground, posing and smiling...would you do the same from your soldiers perspective 60 years ago? Does such a treatment have anything to do with a soldier´s mind? I´ll sent you a PM when I open this thread...I wanted to gag when I saw those pics for a first time... 

I´m very sorry for the WW2 civilian victims of the world...but don´t 4get- no war, no victims...who started the war?


----------



## Njaco (Sep 17, 2008)

I was going to post a story about some atrocity but I can see this is going to disintegrate into finger-pointing. I think we should take Erich's advice and move on or close this.

The question has been answered.


----------



## pbfoot (Sep 17, 2008)

KrazyKraut said:


> The incidence I described above was told in a documentary by former Candian officer directly involved, I'll try to dig it up.
> 
> EDIT: Was easy to dig up:
> Canadian commander, Jacques Dextraze, recalls:
> ...


 We were being nice allowing them to cool off after the days activities
Does anybody recall that the Canadian POWS taken in Dieppe were shackled together for a number (6?) of months after the raid and the 165 Canadian POW killed by the German SS in Normandy , remember only 90 were gunned down in Malmedy.


----------



## KrazyKraut (Sep 17, 2008)

Okay I want to apologize for starting or getting into this kind of finger pointing. That wasn't my intention and I will stop it right here. Seesul, I apparently mistook one sentence in your post.

I have seen horrible pictures of this war a lot, very ****ed up **** far beyond dismembered bodies. It led me into really despising that particular nation's soldiers. But now I'm a little older and I know that it happened the other way around aswell. And I don't believe in collective guilt and subsequent collective punishment, nor should "your nation started the war" or ANYTHING be an apology for committing war crimes.


----------



## m kenny (Sep 17, 2008)

It is pointless because there are those who can not make the distinction between INDIVIDUAL acts of barbarity and an OFFICIALY Sanctioned policy to dispose of inferior people. There was no Allied order exempting their soldiers from punishment for criminal acts like the German one in Russia.
The number of 'enemy' civilians killed by each nation speak for themselves.


----------



## KrazyKraut (Sep 17, 2008)

Eh, look at Ilja Ehrenburg for example. And there are a lot of Western Allied orders and propaganda works aiming in the same direction and either willingly accepted or even directly promoted by the military authority.


----------



## m kenny (Sep 17, 2008)

KrazyKraut said:


> Eh, look at Ilja Ehrenburg for example.



What ORDERS did he give?



> And there are a lot of Western Allied orders and propaganda works aiming in the same direction and either willingly accepted or even directly promoted by the military authority.



Then quote them here.

To start the ball rolling I give you:

* Barbarossa Order*

_Decree concerning the exercise of military jurisdiction in the "Barbarossa" area and special measures to be taken by the troops. 

The armed forces jurisdiction serves primarily the maintenance of discipline. 

The further extension of the eastern theater of operations, the battle strategy conditioned thereby, and the peculiar qualities of the enemy, confront the courts of the armed forces with problems which, being short-staffed, they cannot solve while hostilities are in progress, and until some degree of pacification has been achieved in the conquered areas, unless jurisdiction is confined, in the first instance, to its main task. 

This is only possible if the troops defend themselves relentlessly against any threat from the enemy population. 

The following regulations are, therefore, issued for the "Barbarossa" area (operational area, army group rear area and the area of political administration): 

I: Treatment of offenses committed by enemy civilians: 

1. Until further notice the courts martial [Kriegsgerichte] and the summary courts martial [Standgerichte] will not be competent for offenses committed by enemy civilians. 

2. Guerrillas will be ruthlessly liquidated by the troops, either in combat or in flight. 

3. Similarly, all other attacks by enemy civilians on the armed forces, its members and employees, will be suppressed on the spot by the troops, using the most extreme methods, until the assailants are annihilated. 

4. Where such measures have been neglected or were not at first possible; persons suspected of an offense will be brought immediately before an officer. This officer will decide whether they are to be shot. 

On the orders of an officer, with the powers of at least a battalion commander, collective coercive measures will be carried on immediately against localities from which cunning or malicious attacks are made on the armed forces, if circumstances do not permit a speedy determination of individual perpetrators. 

5. It is expressly forbidden to detain suspects in order to transfer them to the courts after the reinstatement of jurisdiction over indigenous population. 

6. The commanders in chief of the army groups may by agreement with the competent naval and air force commanders reintroduce military jurisdiction for civilians, in areas which are sufficiently pacified. 

For the area of the "political administration" this order will be given by the Chief of the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces. 

II. Treatment of offenses committed against inhabitants by members of the armed forces and its employees: 

1. With regard to offenses committed against enemy civilians by members of the armed forces and its employees, prosecution is not obligatory even if the deed is simultaneously a military violation or crime. 

2. When judging such deeds, it must be borne in mind, whatever the circumstances, that the collapse in 1918, the subsequent suffering of the German people and the fight against national socialism which cost the blood of innumerable supporters of the movement, were caused primarily by Bolshevist influence and that no German has forgotten this. 

3. The judicial authority [Gerichtsherr] will, therefore, decide in such cases whether disciplinary punishment is indicated, or whether judicial proceedings are necessary. 

In the case of offenses against indigenous inhabitants, the judicial authority will order a court martial only if maintenance of discipline or security of the troops call for such a measure. This applies for instance to serious offenses based on lack of sexual restraint, or resulting from a criminal tendency, or indicating that the troops are threatening to become out of hand. As a rule offenses resulting in the senseless destruction of billets, stores or other captured material to the disadvantage of our forces will not be judged more leniently. 

The order to institute investigation proceedings requires the signature of the judicial authority in each individual case. 

4. Extreme caution is indicated in assessing the credibility of statements made by enemy civilians. 

III. Responsibility of military commanders: Within their sphere of competence military commanders are personally responsible for ensuring that: 

1. Every officer of the units under their command is instructed promptly and with the utmost emphasis on the principles set out under I above. 

2. Their legal advisers [Rechtsberater] are notified promptly of these instructions and of the verbal information which elucidated the political intentions of the leadership to the commanders in chief. 

3. Only these sentences are confirmed which are in line with the political intentions of the leadership. 

IV. Security: Once the camouflage is lifted this decree will be classified as "Top Secret" only. 
By Order: 
Chief of the High Command of the Armed Forces 
[Signed] Keitel. 

Certified: 
[Signed] Dressel, 
Major, GSC._


----------



## m kenny (Sep 17, 2008)

*the Commissar Order*
_On 6th June, 1941, the Commissar Order was issued from the Fuehrer Headquarters as " TOP SECRET. Transmission only by officer ! " and was captioned, "Directives for the Treatment of Political Commissars" It was as follows: 

"In the fight against Bolshevism it is not to be expected that the enemy will act in accordance with the principles of Humanity or of the International Law. In particular, a vindictive, cruel and inhuman treatment of our prisoners must be expected on the part of the political Commissars of all types, as they are the actual leaders of the resistance. 

"The troops must realize : 

"(1) In this fight, leniency and considerations of International Law are out of place in dealing with these elements. They con-stitute a danger for their own safety and the swift pacification of the conquered territories.

"(2) The originators of barbarous Asiatic methods of warfare are the political commissars. They must therefore be dealt with most severely, at once and summarily.

"Therefore, they are to be liquidated at once when taken in combat or offering resistance.

"For the rest the following directives will apply: 

"I. Combat Zone 

(1) Political commissars who oppose our troops will be treated in accord-ance with the ‘ decree concerning the application of martial law in the Barbarossa area.’ This applies to commissars of any type and grade, even if they are only suspected of resistance, sabotage or of instigation thereto. 

Reference is made to the ‘ directive concerning the conduct of the troops in Russia.’ 

(2) Political commissars as organs of the enemy troops are recognizable by special insignia-red star with interwoven gold hammer and sickle on the sleeves-(for particulars see ‘ The Armed Forces of the USSR,’ High Command of the Armed Forces/General Staff of the Army, Qu IV, Section Foreign Armies East (II) No. 100/41 secret, of 15th January, 1941, appendix 9 d). They are to be segregated at once, e.g. still on the battlefield, from the prisoners of war. This is necessary to prevent them from influencing the prisoners of war in any way. These commissars will not be recognized as soldiers, the protection of prisoners of war by International Law does not apply to them. They will be liquidated after segregation. 

(3) Political commissars who have not committed or are not suspected of hostile acts will not be harmed for the time being. Only after deeper penetration of the country will it be possible to decide whether officials who were left behind may stay where they are or will be handed over to the Sonderkommandos. Preferably the latter should decide on this point. 

Page 25 

As a matter of principle, in deciding the question whether ‘guilty or not guilty,’ the personal impression which the commissar makes of his mentality and attitude will have precedence over facts which may be unprovable. 

(4) In cases 1 and 2, a short message (message form) about the incident will be sent: 

(a) by divisional units to divisional headquarters (Intelligence Officer). 

(b) by troops directly under the command of a corps, an army or an army group or a Panzer group, to the respective headquarters (Intelligence Officer). 

(5) None of the above-mentioned measures must obstruct the operations. Methodical searches and mopping-up actions, therefore, will not be carried out by the troops. 

II In the Communications Zone 

"Commissars who are arrested in the communications zone on account of a doubtful’attitude will be handed over to the Einsatzgruppen and/or Einsatzkommandos of the Security Police (Security Service)" 

III. Limitations of Courts-Martial and Summary Courts 

"The courts-martial and summary courts of the regimental and other commanders must not be entrusted with the execution of the measures as per I and II." 

On 8th June, 1941, von Brauchitsch sent out a supplement of two additional clauses to be added to the original, viz., to I, Number 1, 

"Action taken against a political commissar must be based on the fact that the person in question has shown by a special, recognisable act or attitude that he opposes or’ will in future oppose the Wehrmacht." 

to I, Number 2, 

"Political commissars attached to the troops should be segregated and dealt with by order of an officer, inconspicuously and outside the proper battle zone."

On 24th May, 1941, however, von Brauchitsch formulated the Maintenance of Discipline order, in which as a supplement to the Fuehrer Order it is said: 

"Subject : Treatment of Enemy Civilians and Criminal Acts of Members of the Wehrmacht against Enemy Civilians.

Attached Fuehrer decree is (hereby) announced. It is to be dis-tributed in writing down to the commanders with jurisdiction of their own ; beyond that, the principles contained in it are to be made known orally. 

"Supplements to I : 

"I expect that all counter intelligence measures of the troops will be carried out energetically, for their own security and the speedy pacification of the territory won. It will be necessary to take into account the 

Page 26

variety of ethnic strains within the population, its overall attitude, and the degree to which they have been stirred up.

"Movement and combat against the enemy’ s armed forces are the real tasks of the troops. It demands the fullest concentration and the highest effort of all forces. This task must not be jeopardized in any place. Therefore, in general, special search and mopping-up operations will be out of question for the combat troops. 

"The directives of the Fuehrer concern serious cases of rebellion, in which the most severe measures are required.

"Criminal acts of a minor nature are, always in accordance with the combat situation, to be punished according to detailed orders from an officer (if possible, a post commander) by resorting to provisional . meusures (for instance), temporary detention at reduced rations, roping-up on a tree, assignment to labour). 

"The C.-in-C’s of the Army Groups are requested to obtain my approval prior to the re-instatement of Wehrmacht jurisdiction in the pacified territories. The C.-in-C’s of the Armies are expected to make suggestions in this respect in time. 

"Special instructions will be issued about the treatment to be given to political dignitaries. 

"Supplements to II : 

"Under all circumstances it will remain the duty of all superiors to prevent arbitrary excesses of individual members of the Army and to prevent in time the troops becoming unmanageable. It must not come to it that the individual soldier commits or omits any act he thinks proper toward the indigenous population ; he must rather feel that ip every case he is bound by the orders of his oficers. I consider it very important that this be clearly understood down to the. lowest unit. Timely action by every officer, especially every company commander, etc., must help to maintain discipline, the basis of our successes. 

"Occurrences with regard to ‘ I ’ and ‘ II,’ and which are of special importance, are to be reported by the troops to the OKH as special events. 

(Signed) VON BRAUCHITSCH" _

the Kommunisten Order, 
the Commando Order and


*Night and Fog Decree.*
_ This decree replaced the unsuccessful Nazi policy of taking hostages to undermine underground activities. Suspected underground agents and others would now vanish without a trace into the night and fog. 

SS Reichsführer Himmler issued the following instructions to the Gestapo.

"After lengthy consideration, it is the will of the Führer that the measures taken against those who are guilty of offenses against the Reich or against the occupation forces in occupied areas should be altered. The Führer is of the opinion that in such cases penal servitude or even a hard labor sentence for life will be regarded as a sign of weakness. An effective and lasting deterrent can be achieved only by the death penalty or by taking measures which will leave the family and the population uncertain as to the fate of the offender. Deportation to Germany serves this purpose."

Field Marshall Keitel issued a letter stating… 

"Efficient and enduring intimidation can only be achieved either by capital punishment or by measures by which the relatives of the criminals do not know the fate of the criminal…The prisoners are, in future, to be transported to Germany secretly, and further treatment of the offenders will take place here; these measures will have a deterrent effect because - A. The prisoners will vanish without a trace. B. No information may be given as to their whereabouts or their fate." _



On 3 March 1941, Jodl, Chief of the Wehrmacht Operations Staff, informed his high officers that: “This campaign is more than a struggle at arms, it will lead to a conflict of ideologies”. The Eastern campaign was therefore a struggle of *extermination;* it was necessary to distance oneself from the standpoint of soldierly comradeship


----------



## m kenny (Sep 17, 2008)

* The Commando Order*

_
The 

No. 003830/42g.Kdos.OWK/Wst F.H. Qu 18.10.1942

1. For a long time now our opponents have been employing in their conduct of the war, methods which contravene the International Convention of Geneva. The members of the so-called Commandos behave in a particularly brutal and underhand manner; and it has been established that those units recruit criminals not only from their own country but even former convicts set free in enemy territories. From captured orders it emerges that they are instructed not only to tie up prisoners, but also to kill out-of-hand unarmed captives who they think might prove an encumbrance to them, or hinder them in successfully carrying out their aims. Orders have indeed been found in which the killing of prisoners has positively been demanded of them.

2. In this connection it has already been notified in an Appendix to Army Orders of 7.10.1942. that in future, Germany will adopt the same methods against these Sabotage units of the British and their Allies; i.e. that, whenever they appear, they shall be ruthlessly destroyed by the German troops.

3. I order, therefore:-

From now on all men operating against German troops in so-called Commando raids in Europe or in Africa, are to be annihilated to the last man. This is to be carried out whether they be soldiers in uniform, or saboteurs, with or without arms; and whether fighting or seeking to escape; and it is equally immaterial whether they come into action from Ships and Aircraft, or whether they land by parachute. Even if these individuals on discovery make obvious their intention of giving themselves up as prisoners, no pardon is on any account to be given. On this matter a report is to be made on each case to Headquarters for the information of Higher Command.

4. Should individual members of these Commandos, such as agents, saboteurs etc., fall into the hands of the Armed Forces through any means - as, for example, through the Police in one of the Occupied Territories - they are to be instantly handed over to the S.D.

To hold them in military custody - for example in P.O.W. Camps, etc., - even if only as a temporary measure, is strictly forbidden.

5. This order does not apply to the treatment of those enemy soldiers who are taken prisoner or give themselves up in open battle, in the course of normal operations, large scale attacks; or in major assault landings or airborne operations. Neither does it apply to those who fall into our hands after a sea fight, nor to those enemy soldiers who, after air battle, seek to save their lives by parachute.

6. I will hold all Commanders and Officers responsible under Military Law for any omission to carry out this order, whether by failure in their duty to instruct their units accordingly, or if they themselves act contrary to it.

(Sgd) A Hitler

_


----------



## KrazyKraut (Sep 17, 2008)

I never said Ehrenburg gave orders. He wrote propaganda that was given to soldiers of the Red Army and that was publicized by the Party, who either willingly accepted what he wrote or, which is rather the case, supported his agenda.


> Then quote them here.


I have already said I will not get further into this crime-by-crime, order-by-order game.


----------



## m kenny (Sep 17, 2008)

KrazyKraut said:


> I never said Ehrenburg gave orders. He wrote propaganda that was given to soldiers of the Red Army and that was publicized by the Party, who either willingly accepted what he wrote or, which is rather the case, supported his agenda.



My case is simple. Only one side gave signed ORDERS that officialy sanctioned killings.



> I have already said I will not get further into this crime-by-crime, order-by-order game.



I think that would be a wise move-simply because of the lack of any Allied ORDERS sanctioning killings


----------



## syscom3 (Sep 17, 2008)

Soren, ever hear of "Hitler's Willing Executioners"?

Hitler's Willing Executioners


----------



## Matt308 (Sep 17, 2008)

Hey guys, just a reminder. I noted that someone mentioned posting pics of war atrocities. I caution you not to post pics that are extremely graphic. They will be deleted. Too many younger folks visiting the forum.


----------



## KrazyKraut (Sep 17, 2008)

m kenny said:


> My case is simple. Only one side gave signed ORDERS that officialy sanctioned killings.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that would be a wise move-simply because of the lack of any Allied ORDERS sanctioning killings



A crime is a crime whether ordered directly or supported indirectly.


----------



## seesul (Sep 17, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> Hey guys, just a reminder. I noted that someone mentioned posting pics of war atrocities. I caution you not to post pics that are extremely graphic. They will be deleted. Too many younger folks visiting the forum.



ok roger


----------



## seesul (Sep 17, 2008)

KrazyKraut said:


> Okay I want to apologize for starting or getting into this kind of finger pointing. That wasn't my intention and I will stop it right here. Seesul, I apparently mistook one sentence in your post.
> 
> I have seen horrible pictures of this war a lot, very ****ed up **** far beyond dismembered bodies. It led me into really despising that particular nation's soldiers. But now I'm a little older and I know that it happened the other way around aswell. And I don't believe in collective guilt and subsequent collective punishment, nor should "your nation started the war" or ANYTHING be an apology for committing war crimes.



ok


----------



## m kenny (Sep 17, 2008)

KrazyKraut said:


> A crime is a crime whether ordered directly or supported indirectly.



I am sorry you won't let this go so can you explain to me why Germany ALONE had an official policy to kill civilians in occupied territory?
Why were German soldiers exempt from Military Law when dealing with civilians in The East?
Whilst you can find INDIVIDUAL Allied Units/soldiers who commited crimes you will never find an order EXEMPTING them (in advance) from existing penal codes.


----------



## KrazyKraut (Sep 17, 2008)

pbfoot said:


> We were being nice allowing them to cool off after the days activities


You are very funny indeed.


> I am sorry you won't let this go so can you explain to me why Germany ALONE had an official policy to kill civilians in occupied territory?


Did I ever argue the Commissar order was right?


----------



## Marcel (Sep 17, 2008)

mkloby said:


> Marcel - many of the SS troops were EXCELLENT soldiers, all else aside.


Oh, I know they were. But that doesn't change the rest. The difference between waffen SS and totenkopf SS is just that the Waffen SS also fought, while the Totenkopf SS only did war crimes. But the Waffen SS were scum as well. I have lost family members to them, so I could never learn to know them. Most crimes in the Netherlands were done by the Waffen SS. This was something different than crimes committed in the front line. This was calculated crimes against civilians, far away from the battle.


----------



## Ramirezzz (Sep 17, 2008)

Soren said:


> Stasoid,
> 
> Have you got any clue how many jews, communists slavic people were killed in concentration camps ?? It was the far majority!


no it wasn't . I don't have exact numbers yet since I'm not at home right now but it was definately not a majority.
In fact there were far more than 17 millions of civilians killed. Estimates differ, but the most modern researchs mention even 21 or 22 mill dead.

and the legend of a clean Wehrmacht is refuted by the latest researchs as well. There're thousands if not tens of thousands of accounts which disprove it.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 17, 2008)

Soren said:


> namely in Iraq Afghanistan where US soldiers have gone beserk against civilians a number of times already after having been provoked by the taliban.



Lets see some facts that soldiers have gone "berserk" as you said. Lets back those words up Soren, if you are going to make absured claims. I find those claims rather insulting. 

Come on buddy, you better back them up.

Have soldiers in Iraq or Afganistan commited crimes? Yes, but they have not gone "berserk" as you say, and to compare them to the type of crimes commited in Iraq is pathetic! A really low and cheap shot. 

You better back this one up, or you are on my **** list.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 17, 2008)

Njaco said:


> I was going to post a story about some atrocity but I can see this is going to disintegrate into finger-pointing. I think we should take Erich's advice and move on or close this.
> 
> The question has been answered.



Agreed, I am going to close this thread as soon as Soren backs up his absured comments.


----------



## Matt308 (Sep 17, 2008)

Why wait Adler. That's a task that can't be accomplished.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 17, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> Why wait Adler. That's a task that can't be accomplished.



I know that, you know that, every person with half a brain knows that. Soren just needs to answer for his absured claims.


----------



## lesofprimus (Sep 17, 2008)

Soren better step up on this one, cause I wont stand for that kind of slamming of our forces.... Either he puts up something to back up that sh!t or he's gone.......


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Sep 17, 2008)

Ditto


----------



## Soren (Sep 17, 2008)

Relax guys, I'm not trying to compare the Coalition forces in Afganistan or Iraq to the SS, I was merely trying to explain how seeing your buddies mutilated by the enemy can send one into a rage.

Yes there are examples of US soldiers completely overreacting in Iraq, one incident was caused by an IED going off which made a platoon of US soldiers assault civilian households, throwing in grenades asking questions later. One of the soldiers was recently interviewed by 60 minutes. 

I don't see that as a slamming of the Coalition forces as they're doing a great job over there and I can understand why things would go out of control some times. The problem in Iraq Afghanistan is that we're fighting an invisible enemy, which is scary as hell and very hard on the psyche. 

Moving on..

Nothing justifies what the SS did, ever, but poeple also need to understand the difference between the different branches. People also need to understand that the majority of the Waffen SS were normal people, the sadists, criminals etc etc were mainly with the shooting squads and different branches. We also need to remember that all sides committed war crimes, and not make monsters out of entire nations because of the actions of some its soldiers. 

That's all really.


----------



## Erich (Sep 17, 2008)

ah 60 minutes of Bull shi* eh ?

guess then the comparisons could be to what we witnessed in Nam then ? B.S. double time......... ! think some of the forum patrons better do some serious research before they post

funny to me when civilians were killed in cross-fire or then set out by Charlie with bombs strapped and then got blown away we we got home we were called Killers ................ piss on all of ya if you believe that, if you had been there ......... 

better stop


----------



## Soren (Sep 17, 2008)

Ramirezzz said:


> no it wasn't . I don't have exact numbers yet since I'm not at home right now but it was definately not a majority.
> In fact there were far more than 17 millions of civilians killed. Estimates differ, but the most modern researchs mention even 21 or 22 mill dead.
> 
> and the legend of a clean Wehrmacht is refuted by the latest researchs as well. There're thousands if not tens of thousands of accounts which disprove it.



No army was "clean", Stasoid/Ramirezz. The Wehrmacht committed war crimes, the Soviet army committed war crimes heck every side did. The SS, Japanese the Soviets were probably the worst though.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 17, 2008)

Soren said:


> Relax guys, I'm not trying to compare the Coalition forces in Afganistan or Iraq to the SS, I was merely trying to explain how seeing your buddies mutilated by the enemy can send one into a rage.
> 
> Yes there are examples of US soldiers completely overreacting in Iraq, one incident was caused by an IED going off which made a platoon of US soldiers assault civilian households, throwing in grenades asking questions later. One of the soldiers was recently interviewed by 60 minutes.
> 
> ...



You words were _"where US soldiers have gone beserk against civilians a number of times already"_.

Definition of berzerk: violently or destructively frenzied; wild; crazed; deranged

violent, mad, maniacal, rabid, demented, lunatic.

Again you better back up that statement or retract it real quick...


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 17, 2008)

Well I am going to go to bad now. I will check this thread tomorrow morning, Soren...


----------



## Soren (Sep 17, 2008)

Erich said:


> ah 60 minutes of Bull shi* eh ?
> 
> guess then the comparisons could be to what we witnessed in Nam then ? B.S. double time......... ! think some of the forum patrons better do some serious research before they post
> 
> ...



I can understand why such accidents happen sometimes Erich. War is hell.

All I'm trying to make some people understand is that similar things as those happening around the world today also happened during WW2. 

I remember an interview with a veteran Waffen SS soldiers who told a story of finding one of their lost scouting groups caught and mutilated by the Partizans to the point where it was not possible to recognize the bodies. This sent the men into a rage and the town close to the area felt that first hand as it was burned down and all the men were shot in suspicision of being Partizans. The women and children were just left standing there, their town burned down, nowhere to go.

The war in the east was the most brutal, and no pardon was given by either side.


----------



## Soren (Sep 17, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> You words were _"where US soldiers have gone beserk against civilians a number of times already"_.
> 
> Definition of berzerk: violently or destructively frenzied; wild; crazed; deranged
> 
> ...



Ok bad choice of words then, what I meant was they were provoked into a rage. Seeing your buddy blown to pieces can do that to you. The fact that the Taliban are fighting a cowards war doesn't make things any better. Coalition forces are often having a real hard time trying to seperate the civilians from the taliban.


----------



## Erich (Sep 17, 2008)

I do not think any time or anywhere Soren you can understand, unless you sadly like some of us were there, understood, felt the heat of battle, were shot at, yes even in Israel, what that does to your mental psyche

my suggestion to you and others before anyone posts after me is to think first, observe and then plan your statements accordingly. this is all about the survivalists code which I have taught over and over again and probably will until I leave this planet, it will save your butt and it also applies to these very forums

I have spoken


----------



## Soren (Sep 17, 2008)

I understand Erich and you're absolutely correct. I guess I just have a probem expressing myself properly.

The same things applies to what happened in Iraq, you will do what it takes to make sure that your fellow soldiers survive.


----------



## Ramirezzz (Sep 17, 2008)

Soren said:


> Soviets were probably the worst though.



and how did you figure out that?


----------



## Soren (Sep 17, 2008)

Ramirezzz said:


> and how did you figure out that?



Well lets see... because they didn't discriminate in their killings. The Soviets executed entire so called "liberated" towns because after they occused them of "helping the Nazi's". The towns didn't help the Nazis. Like I said, the Soviets no better.


----------



## Soren (Sep 17, 2008)

Anyway I think we should take Erich's advice and let it go now cause this is a very sensitive area and one can easily get misunderstood.

I apologize if I offended anyone cause that not was what I intended.


----------



## evangilder (Sep 17, 2008)

I think this is the proper time to close this thread.


----------



## Matt308 (Sep 17, 2008)

And Adler should have the final say.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 18, 2008)

This is to anyone and everyone:

Crimes are committed in every war. The difference between a crime committed by a Coalition soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan and the types of crimes committed during WW2 (by any nation) is that these crimes are not condoned. The offenders are punished under strick law governed by the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). Soldiers who do these acts are punished harshly.

Anyone, I repeat anyone who tries to make a comparison between the SS, Wehrmacht, Japanese, and Soviet attrocities of WW2 and the Coalition Soldiers (notice I said Coalition Soldiers, we are not in this alone) will be immediatly banned.

This kind of BS really strikes a nerve in me!

Case Closed....


----------

