# Blimey.....Vikings!



## Lucky13 (Oct 23, 2010)

Just been watching The Time Team, where they showed some old viking swords and knives...the pattern worked into the knives that they tried after the old norsemen....and after some serious testing found out that, the steel that was used is their swords was just as bl**dy good as any steel used today!!!! 

They also showed some _not_ so very pleasant viking activities.....  Boy....were we bad!


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 23, 2010)

But in a good way! 


It amazes me the impact they had on maritime and civilization in general.


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## tail end charlie (Oct 23, 2010)

Lucky

From your post you seem to be dissacociating yourself from the Vikings, I thought they ca,e from Skandinavia, I think there should be an education programme to ensure you and Biker Babe dont lapse into such behaviour again.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 23, 2010)

Oh...I'm proud over my forefathers, don't get me wrong, even if they were, sometimes.......missunderstood!


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## Airframes (Oct 23, 2010)

I agree. And while your at it, take all this bl**dy spam away .......and beans is orf !


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 23, 2010)

"Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam"


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## Lucky13 (Oct 23, 2010)

Say what now??


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## BikerBabe (Oct 23, 2010)

tail end charlie said:


> Lucky
> 
> From your post you seem to be dissacociating yourself from the Vikings, I thought they ca,e from Skandinavia, I think there should be an education programme to ensure you and Biker Babe dont lapse into such behaviour again.



*succinctly* Pardon me sir, I was born in Greenland, from a family of german and greenlandic folks! 
There's no viking in _my _blood - only merchants and bear hunters. 
(Erm...to tell you the absolute truth, there _could _also be some danish sailors or carpenters mixed in there, I don't know - so the viking thing _could _be a part of the family without me knowing it.  )


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## JohnAnthony (Oct 23, 2010)

Lucky13 said:


> They also showed some _not_ so very pleasant viking activities.....  Boy....were we bad!


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 23, 2010)

LMAO


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## tail end charlie (Oct 23, 2010)

BikerBabe said:


> *succinctly* Pardon me sir, I was born in Greenland, from a family of german and greenlandic folks!
> There's no viking in _my _blood - only merchants and bear hunters.
> (Erm...to tell you the absolute truth, there _could _also be some danish sailors or carpenters mixed in there, I don't know - so the viking thing _could _be a part of the family without me knowing it.  )



I was being a little silly bikerbabe wheras its possible to ask someone about their fathers behaviour when it comes to 1000 yrs its ridiculous. Going back only 4 generations and from names alone I have German Viking Dutch Flemmish and Old English ancestors, I suppose there was a helluva lot of unrestricted sex with no regard to contraception before the sixties.

And BTW dont try to whitewash Greenlands history it was known as "Whiteland" before the revisionists started


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## JohnAnthony (Oct 23, 2010)

This cartoon always gives me a chuckle...


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 23, 2010)

Love it!


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## BikerBabe (Oct 23, 2010)

tail end charlie said:


> I was being a little silly bikerbabe wheras its possible to ask someone about their fathers behaviour when it comes to 1000 yrs its ridiculous. Going back only 4 generations and from names alone I have German Viking Dutch Flemmish and Old English ancestors, I suppose there was a helluva lot of unrestricted sex with no regard to contraception before the sixties.
> 
> And BTW dont try to whitewash Greenlands history it was known as "Whiteland" before the revisionists started



I was pullin' yer leg, man!  
And [email protected] Revisionists.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 23, 2010)

We are _not_ amused!


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## RabidAlien (Oct 23, 2010)

Funny you should start this thread....I just finished watching "How To Train Your Dragon". Pretty good movie, actually!


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## Lucky13 (Oct 24, 2010)

Well, mine is pretty well trained by now....still a problem with the papers, keep burning up and the postman.....well...


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## RabidAlien (Oct 24, 2010)

Bet you don't get as many annoying bills now, though! Ya gotta give the little guy credit for that!


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 24, 2010)




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## Lucky13 (Oct 24, 2010)

Better believe it son.....give the wee fella a nice crunchy Taxman everynow and then....


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## RabidAlien (Oct 24, 2010)

Urg. Tax collectors give mine a bad case of the runs. We usually just opt for a nice flame-breath (flambe!) and call it a day.


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## Maximowitz (Oct 24, 2010)

The Vikings that invaded Britain were mainly Norwegian and Danish in origin. Apart from that bloke from Sodertalje.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 24, 2010)

I'm never gonna live that down, am I? It was just a stag do that went slightly overboard, ok!


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## Maestro (Oct 24, 2010)

Hey, there is nothing wrong with having Viking blood, okay ?  (As some of you know, I've got Danish ancestors.)

Note : If the Vikings landed in New-Foundland 500 years before Columbus landed in the Bahamas (that was proven), why the hell is he still credited with the discovery of America ?


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## Lucky13 (Oct 24, 2010)

Beats me mate.... I'd like to know why it's so hard for some people to accept that Leif Eriksson was in North America slightly ahead of Columbus..


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## Airframes (Oct 24, 2010)

Maybe Columbus used Sachi and Sachi for his PR write-up ?!!


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## RabidAlien (Oct 24, 2010)

Yeah, he had the frikkin Queen of Spain backing him...you can't beat that for PR! Its been proven that several other countries were here before Columbus, they actually set foot in NORTH America, and that they KNEW they were on a new continent. Columbus (IIRC) went to his grave thinking he'd found a shorter route to India or something. Heck, I thought *I* was bad at geography!!!


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## Lucky13 (Oct 25, 2010)

.....and we even rubbed shoulders with the natives and caused _less_ trouble, illness etc., etc.


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## JohnAnthony (Oct 25, 2010)

Maestro said:


> Hey, there is nothing wrong with having Viking blood, okay ?  (As some of you know, I've got Danish ancestors.)
> 
> Note : If the Vikings landed in New-Foundland 500 years before Columbus landed in the Bahamas (that was proven), why the hell is he still credited with the discovery of America ?



He's not really. The observance of Columbus Day here in the states is waning and any public school history book you open describes the Native Americans' migrations from Asia and the Viking settlements in New Foundland. Columbus is credited with re-discovering the Americas for the sake of mainland Europe's eventual colonization.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 25, 2010)

There are still questions asked about how south in North America the Vikings travelled....


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## tail end charlie (Oct 25, 2010)

Lucky13 said:


> There are still questions asked about how south in North America the Vikings travelled....



I think its quite clear that people walked into N America from East Asia. The Vikings seemed to have sailed there and Columbus sailed there and back


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## RabidAlien (Oct 25, 2010)

Lucky, there's a Viking runestone up in Heavenor, Oklahoma....almost went there a couple of weeks ago (wife and I were just south, in Broken Bow, and drove that direction, but wife got bored so we turned around 18 miles short of Heavenor....pissed me off, too.). So they've been at least that far south. Wierd in Rune Stone State Park Heavener, OK 74937 Heavener, OKLAHOMA LeFlore Wierd


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Oct 25, 2010)

WOW!! Very cool info RA! Thank you sir!


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## JohnAnthony (Oct 26, 2010)

Oklahoma huh? Wow. I'd like to know the story behind that. Exiles? New colonists? Lost?


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## RabidAlien (Oct 26, 2010)

We didn't make it up there, so I can't tell the full story (or as much as anyone knows, anyway), but they think the guy who carved the stone is the same guy who carved several more up north. The Vikings did travel quite a ways in the northern states, looking for whatever it was they were looking for...I'm wanting to say that they made it about halfway across the country, but don't quote me on that. Apparently one Viking got bored having the sun in his eyes every afternoon/evening, and turned south.


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## JohnAnthony (Oct 26, 2010)

Well the Vikings were no different than other human beings throughout history - we all seem to have a certain amount of wanderlust, looking for something better (or at least different) over the horizon. What I find even more fascinating is the idea that some South American peoples migrated over the seas to become Pacific Islanders - Kon Tiki and all that...That's just mind-boggling.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 26, 2010)

There's been plenty of evidence that other cultures made contact with the new world long before Columbus. Back in the 80's, they even discovered a Roman shipwreck off the coast of Argentina. I'm going to figure that predates Columbus by just a few years...

They even have possible evidence that Scandanavian explorers made contact with Central American cultures, who thought the Vikings were gods. That explains why Montezuma thought the Spaniards were those same gods prophesized to return someday and given a free reign to the Aztec empire (finding out too late, of course, that they weren't gods afterall).

As far as family ancestry goes, my Saxon ancestors didn't seem to get along at all with the Vikings that were invading thier Scottish turf


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## Colin1 (Oct 26, 2010)

GrauGeist said:


> They even have possible evidence that Scandanavian explorers made contact with Central American cultures, who thought the Vikings were gods. That explains why Montezuma thought the Spaniards were those same gods prophesized to return someday and given a free reign to the Aztec empire (finding out too late, of course, that they weren't gods after all)


I thought the evidence was a little greater than 'possible'
Didn't some fella called Leif Eriksson make it to the Americas?


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## mikewint (Oct 26, 2010)

The vikings rollicked ALL over the north atlantic including, N america, england, france, even italy just to check on what the neighbors had grown or born. their effect on civilization was monumental. just as a simple example except for Saturn's Day, The Sun's Day, and the Moon's Day all the rest are Nordic. And NO horned helmuts


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## Lucky13 (Oct 26, 2010)

I don't mind the horned helmets, even if we never worn any.....keep wondering where the idea came from though.


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## Airframes (Oct 26, 2010)

I thought they were a Viking prototype for those hats with Coke or beer cans attached, with drinking tubes running down the front ! The horns were really drinking vessels, containing the Viking version of Guinness ...........


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## Lucky13 (Oct 26, 2010)

Yup.....the world famous mjod! 8)


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## bobbysocks (Oct 26, 2010)

belive i saw on discovery or the history channel about how the vikings could have did it. according to this account the polar ice cap at that time extended as far south as iceland and green land...so the vikings didnt have emense expanses of open water to cover. they hedge hopped and islands and ice flows. and could have hunted off of them. was a few days before my time


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## mikewint (Oct 26, 2010)

There are at present 9 rune stones which have been found in the US.
In 1898 a Kensington, Minn farmed found a 200 lb slab of rock covered with Nordic runes
The vast majority of experts that have examined the stone declare it to be a hoax.
The Heavener Oklahoma stones: #1 discovered in 1898, varying translations exist such as GNOMEDAL or gnome valley, or possibly G. Nomedal a common Norse name making the huge stone a possible boundry marker. #2 inscribed with non-translatable runes. #3 inscribed with an X, a turkey track, an arrow, and the letters G, R, and T. Lastly the Poteau rune stone discovered in 1967 10 miles SE of the Heavener stone on a straight line along the other 3 stones. This stone is possibly inscribed with: GLOIALLW
The Shawnee, Oklahoma stone found within the city limits in 1969 is inscribed with 5 runes which possibly read MEDOK possibly the name of a welsh prince.
Finally the 3 rune stones discovered in Spirit Pond Maine in 1971. One of which is a crude map of the area.
Most experts consider all of the stones to be hoaxes


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## Colin1 (Oct 26, 2010)

bobbysocks said:


> belive i saw on discovery or the history channel about how the vikings could have did it. according to this account the polar ice cap at that time extended as far south as iceland and green land...so the vikings didnt have emense expanses of open water to cover. they hedge hopped and islands and ice flows. and could have hunted off of them. was a few days before my time


I read a book
when I was a kid called Vinland the Good. It detailed the expulsion of Erik Thorvaldsson, or Erik the Red, as he was known, from his country for killing someone. He was shipped off to Iceland where Scandinavia seemed to send all of its malcontents. He took his son, Leif, with him.

Apparently, he could see Greenland (or whatever they called it back then) from the highest peak in Iceland and Erik decided he was going to go there. The community that he established there eventually died out but not before Leif went to the Americas.

Apparently there was accord with the locals (native Americans, can't remember which) to begin with but they did fall out and have a seriously massive punch-up; Red Indians vs Vikings - wonder how much Don King would've pulled in for that one..

So yes, in a sense, they did 'hedge-hop' to the Americas but more in a generational sense. That's how I understood it but new stuff could have come to light since then to disprove that.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 26, 2010)

AAAANNND IN THE RIGHT CORNER WE HAAAVE.....!!


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## GrauGeist (Oct 26, 2010)

Colin1 said:


> I thought the evidence was a little greater than 'possible'
> Didn't some fella called Leif Eriksson make it to the Americas?


There's no doubt that Eriksson did make it to North America, but the evidence that any Vikings made it to Central America lies mainly in the Mayan/Aztec lore, rather than any hard evidence, such as human remains, artifacts, etc.

The possible evidence would lie in the God Quetazlcoatl, who has been seen depicted with blue eyes (turquiose was normally the material used on the diety's mask) and sometimes a red beard. It is also said that he came from the sea riding a serpent.

There have also been many pre-Columbian murals depicting red bearded men wearing armor found throughout Central America as well as tales of two particular Dieties (both were bearded) that taught the Mayans how to write with letters and new building techniques.

Personally, I'd accept that as evidence, but most people want to see a pile of bones or a rusted sword as proof and even then they'd argue about it...


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## mikewint (Oct 26, 2010)

Grau, on must be very careful how one interprets "evidence". plain and simple we lack the cultural experience to interpret some very complex symbolic designs. what will scientists 1000 years from now make of "Kilroy was here" drawings? remember those same stylized drawings were used to prove the "Gods" arrived on spacecraft.


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## tail end charlie (Oct 26, 2010)

bobbysocks said:


> belive i saw on discovery or the history channel about how the vikings could have did it. according to this account the polar ice cap at that time extended as far south as iceland and green land...so the vikings didnt have emense expanses of open water to cover. they hedge hopped and islands and ice flows. and could have hunted off of them. was a few days before my time



I have read the same, there are stories about polar bears landing exhausted in the Shetland isles, if that is the case following the ice cap would not have been so difficult. I do believe they would need thermal underwear though and that is a recent invention.


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## mikewint (Oct 26, 2010)

I have no doubts whatsoever that the Vikings could have done many things, either deliberately or by sheer accident. Viking settlements in N America are a fact and there is plenty of evidence they existed but hand-weapons, even steel, against thousands of indians was a no-win situations for the Vikings


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## bobbysocks (Oct 26, 2010)

mikewint said:


> I have no doubts whatsoever that the Vikings could have done many things, either deliberately or by sheer accident. Viking settlements in N America are a fact and there is plenty of evidence they existed but hand-weapons, even steel, against thousands of indians was a no-win situations for the Vikings



not necessarily mike. again one of those history/discovery channel shows...this time about the spanish in chile. i believe the scene was macho picchu...i am going to have to do some digging on this. but the spanish were in the city and holed up in a building. there was less than 100 of them?? and 100000 angry incas drying to get them. they, the spanish held them off killing thousands of them...due to armor, cross bows, matchlock rifles, and metal weapons. so the vikings could have faired as well. anyways i will try to find the story and actaul info.

got it: 

After climbing into the Andes to a height of about 13,500 feet, Pizarro and his small party of conquistadors enter the valley of Cajamarca in November. Atahualpa's army is encamped in bright tents beyond the city. The splendour of the site both Impresses and alarms the intruders. But there is nowhere to go but forward. They enter the town of Cajamarca, unopposed, and then send a small party forward to present themselves to the Inca. 

The massacre of Cajamarca: AD 1532

The Spaniards, aware of their extreme vulnerability, are uncertain how to receive the Inca. They take the precaution of concealing their limited forces - cavalry, infantry, artillery - in the arcades around the square. A prearranged signal to attack will be used only if the situation demands it. 
When Atahualpa enters Cajamarca, on a magnificent litter carried high by his nobles, the square appears to be empty. With only a narrow entrance, the space fills up slowly with his followers, lightly armed. Then a single Spaniard walks towards the Inca - Pizarro's priest. 
The priest solemnly begins explaining to Atahualpa the truth of the Christian religion (a requirement in the Spanish empire, when confronting pagan people, if there is a danger of bloodshed). Atahualpa demands to see the prayer book which the priest is holding. He leafs through it, then flings it to the ground.
The outraged priest turns back, shouting for vengeance. Pizarro gives the prearranged signal for the ambush. 

The din of terrifying artillery and gunfire, the onslaught of unfamiliar cavalry and the ferocity of Spaniards in mortal danger, all combine to throw the Indians into desperate panic. Trapped by the narrow entrance to the square, they are defenceless targets for butchery. Reports state that the killing lasts two hours. *The Indian dead are numbered in thousands rather than hundreds*, with the Spanish horsemen carrying the carnage into the streets and open spaces outside the square. 

The only wound suffered by any Spaniard that day is a deep cut on Pizarro's hand, received when he defends Atahualpa from a sword blow. He needs the Inca alive.


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## RabidAlien (Oct 26, 2010)

One of the great things about human nature is our unquenchable desire (as a race) to take a peek over that horizon over there <points in random direction>. Its no surprise to me that we find Viking artifacts, or legends, or even the merest hint halfway around the globe. Another thing about human nature, if you put forth an idea, there will be someone who will inevitably disagree and/or argue with it. If you put forth incontrovertible, incontestable, rock-solid tangible proof....they will just dig their heels in and search for something that disproves your point.  Humans.

Personally, I count the Vikings as some of the great travelers and explorers of their time. I also count them as some of the worst record-keepers, thus we do not find maps with "The United States of Erickson" printed these days. Imagine if the Nordic nations could've been solidly united under one king, with more attention paid to the scribe-like trades.


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 26, 2010)

......and mead and wenches and......


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## JohnAnthony (Oct 26, 2010)




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## bobbysocks (Oct 27, 2010)

vikingBerserker said:


> ......and mead and wenches and......




WHERE???


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## mikewint (Oct 27, 2010)

Bobby, steel hand weapons or not a hand-full of Vikings are not and did not prevail over thousands of Indians.
As far as the Spanish conquests of the Aztecs, Incas and Mayans are concerned the Spanish had a number of factors working for them besides just steel hand weapons. When Cortez arrived in 1519: 
1. The Aztecs had seen astrological signs the portended the collapse of their empire
2. Cortez landed during their harvest when most men were in the fields and the army was at its weakest
3. After an initial battle with the Tlaxcalans, Aztec rivals, in which his army came near defeat Cortez allied himself with the Tlaxcalans against their mutual enemy the Aztecs.
4. Aztec priests had predicted the return of their God Quetzalcoatl, who was light of hair and skin just like Cortez, thus many of the Indians believed the Spanish to be gods.
5. The Spanish brought smallpox and measles with them. The Indians had no immunity to these European diseases which killed 75% of the Indian population.
6. The Spanish had guns, horses, and mastiffs with them. None of which the Indians had ever seen. In fact, the Indians initially thought the horse and rider were one creature a new god.

As far as the Incas and Pizarro are concerned the Spaniards had the same advantages PLUS:
1. The Incan empire had grown too large to be effectively governed and was in decline
2. All travel and messages could only be sent by foot over large distances and very difficult terrain
3. The emperor had just died of smallpox before he could name his heir thus two of his sons were trying to take his place which put the empire in a state of civil war.
Atahualpa, fresh from beating his half-brother in a major battle was over-confident and contemptuous of the tiny Spanish forces. He entered the city of Cajamarca with only 7,000 unarmed followers planning to overawe the Spanish with his imperial might. Pizarro’s men hidden in the city attacked with guns (which the Indians had never seen before), a calvary charge ( Indians had never seen horses before), 3 cannon (Indians had never seen cannon before) and their steel weapons against unarmed Indians. Pizarro lost 5 men to 2,000 Indians but by capturing Atahualpa he left the rest of the Indian army without a leader paralyzing the empire.

By the time the Spanish got around to the Mayans on the Yucatan the Indians had learned their lessons well. It took the Spaniards 170 years to subjugate the Mayans and that only came about after three epidemics of smallpox/measles killed 85-90% of the native population.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 27, 2010)

...and still Columbus Day is celibrated!


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## mikewint (Oct 27, 2010)

Lucky, in the US of A we do not discriminate against minorities. By the way old Chris was italian it was spanish money


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## tail end charlie (Oct 27, 2010)

the poor Vikings after several centuries of invading England and Scotland were driven to travel to America purely to find a few women who could cook


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## mikewint (Oct 27, 2010)

TEC, you gots to give them something to cook: BANGERS? KIDNEY PIE? PLUM PUDDING that has no plums or pudding in it?


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## tail end charlie (Oct 27, 2010)

mikewint said:


> TEC, you gots to give them something to cook: BANGERS? KIDNEY PIE? PLUM PUDDING that has no plums or pudding in it?




Years ago I went to a formal dinner in ermany wherte there were many people from Sweden (from the Sandvik company) the German host being a bit of a wise guy started joking about the Vikings (ie Swedish) kidnapping the British women and taking them home. I pointed out that after two days of eating the slaves kooking they took them back and set off for America 


try mincemeat it doesnt have any meat in it (but is delicious) and yorkshire pudding which is a starter made from cooked batter but our piece de resistance is a pomfret or pontefract cake which isnt a cake but a sweet made mainly from liquorish and is ing but must be tried like Ratzeputz in Germany


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## mikewint (Oct 27, 2010)

TEC, I was in england and scotland back in 1970. My dad loved mincemeat and we always had several pies over Xmas. Yorkshire pudding I've tried and its not bad. the pomfret is new to me but i don't care for licorice.
Ratzeputz i tried in Germany, what a kick, not a big fan of ginger either but i couldn't get the taste out of my mouth for days


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## tail end charlie (Oct 27, 2010)

mikewint said:


> TEC, I was in england and scotland back in 1970. My dad loved mincemeat and we always had several pies over Xmas. Yorkshire pudding I've tried and its not bad. the pomfret is new to me but i don't care for licorice.
> Ratzeputz i tried in Germany, what a kick, not a big fan of ginger either but i couldn't get the taste out of my mouth for days



Mike mince meat is a corrupt spelling it should be mince mete which is all the small things left in winter mainly fruit. By december everything fresh had been eaten and so what was left was minced with spices to make something tasty and edible.

My family are from yorkshire and cooked correctly and served with gravy made from the roasted meat it is a delicious starter, its origins are from the peasantry who had lots of milk and eggs but little meat. To eat meat you have to kill an "asset"


the first time i drank ratzeputz the host said "youve got to try this in Germany, it tastes like **** but you cant leave Germany without tasting it, Ive got to agree it tastes like **** but its great at the end of an evening


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## bobbysocks (Oct 27, 2010)

mike, no i didnt think vikings took on the indians to any great degree ( or even at all for that matter)...but with metal weapons and armor...shields, chain and batted clothing against stone and wood weapons...and with the training and experience they had the vikings could have put a world of hurt on them. and yeah i am aware of all the prophesies running around the aztec/incan world....and all the factors ( smallpox, insurrections, drought) involved. but still 168 men coming out on top against thousands is impressive. if the inca would have booked for it and ran for the hills...their death toll would have been substancially less. so i am lead to believe they stood and fought. the matchlock rifles of that day took forever to reload ( and not everyone soldier had one)... a good cannon crew could still only pump out 2 or 3 rpm. so after your first initial volleys its down to fix bayonets time. then it was obsidian weapons vs steel. fear and superstition played a huge role but these were also fierce warriors...it wasnt a cake walk for the spaniards.


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## Colin1 (Oct 27, 2010)

mikewint said:


> we lack the cultural experience to interpret some very complex symbolic designs. what will scientists 1000 years from now make of "Kilroy was here" drawings? remember those same stylized drawings were used to prove the "Gods" arrived on spacecraft.


Talk about irony
could the same lack of cultural experience preclude the arrival of other-world visitors with such cavalier certainty? Far too easy to point the finger at the tin-foil hat brigade and shout 'little green men'

You are over-simplifying a much more complex and interesting debate and possibly wandering a little off-topic


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## mikewint (Oct 27, 2010)

Colin, I don't preclude anything, my point being that complex stylized drawings that were obvious to someone within the culture become very difficult to interpret when that culture disappears. the 9 runic tablets found in the US are a mixture of several runic alphabets though mostly Elder Futhark is used and some characters match no known runic alphabet. there are also other linguistic problems. thus most experts in the field view them as hoaxs.
Aztec carvings show a man riding something that looks (to us) like it is belching fire and his head looks (to us) as if he is wearing a helmet. is this a spaceman riding a rocket ship or would any common Aztec looked at it and see the local milkman. 
some of these thing will remain mysteries until we can resurect Vikings and Aztecs


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## GrauGeist (Oct 27, 2010)

Well, the prophecy and it's details were close enough to keep Montezuma (and others) from slaughtering Cortez and his men when they first came onto the scene.

So at some point in the South American, pre-Columbian time period, fair-skinned, armored people made contact with those peoples and left an impact to the point where they were incorporated into the native folklore and religion.

While the artwork and religious/folklore can show some real imaginitive characters and stories at times, it is unmistakable that there were people with european features portrayed both in the art and tales.

Unfortunately, it's now left to speculation if they were Romans, Phoenecians, Vikings or what.


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## JohnAnthony (Oct 28, 2010)

GrauGeist said:


> Well, the prophecy and it's details were close enough to keep Montezuma (and others) from slaughtering Cortez and his men when they first came onto the scene.
> 
> So at some point in the South American, pre-Columbian time period, fair-skinned, armored people made contact with those peoples and left an impact to the point where they were incorporated into the native folklore and religion.
> 
> ...



I’m not so sure. The annals of human folklore are full of fantastic creatures that have little basis in empirical reality: angels, demons, fairies, dragons – the list is long. Human imagination is prolific, and the fact that South American mythology had some tall blonde, blue-eyed gods does not constitute proof (in my mind) that they were visited by ancient Europeans. Now I think it’s entirely probable that they WERE visited, given the fact that certain cultures (like the Romans and Vikings) had not only the propensity but the technology to do some extensive globe-trotting. But without solid archeological evidence it remains conjecture – fascinating to be sure, but conjecture nonetheless.


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## Colin1 (Oct 28, 2010)

JohnAnthony said:


> I’m not so sure. The annals of human folklore are full of fantastic creatures that have little basis in empirical reality: angels, demons, fairies, dragons – the list is long. Human imagination is prolific


Dragons appear in the mythologies of most cultures
including Egypt, Babylon, Korea, India, China, Japan, Aboriginal Australia, Europe and the Americas. You will find the term dragon used several times in the Old Testament. One can argue the point over the reliability of Herodotus, but he wrote of 'flying reptiles' in Egypt and Arabia.

Prolific imagination or incredible coincidence?


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## JohnAnthony (Oct 28, 2010)

Colin1 said:


> Dragons appear in the mythologies of most cultures
> including Egypt, Babylon, Korea, India, China, Japan, Aboriginal Australia, Europe and the Americas. You will find the term dragon used several times in the Old Testament. One can argue the point over the reliability of Herodotus, but he wrote of 'flying reptiles' in Egypt and Arabia.
> 
> Prolific imagination or incredible coincidence?



I don't know but show me the fossil remains of a dragon and I'll believe in dragons. Is it possible that all that dragon mythology is based on various cultures throughout history stumbling upon dinosaur bones? After all, dinosaurs spanned the globe at one time...


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## mikewint (Oct 28, 2010)

I'm with John, conjecture is always fascinating and it is always tempting to feel that legends are based in fact which also may or may not be true. Even today, we have our mythological beasts, the yeti, sasquach, big foot, jersey devil, nessie, etc.
which may or may not be real. I guess i'm pragmatic about these things. when i see hard evidence i'll believe
If dragons roamed the globe where are all those bones?


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## GrauGeist (Oct 28, 2010)

Well...I've seen the skull of a T-Rex up close, sporting teeth up to 12 inches long...if I lived back in the ancient world, I would immediately believe I had seen the remains of a dragon (and probably swear off drinking for a long time).

Also, a point to ponder: Has anyone seen Trojan armor or weapons? Keep in mind that Troy was just a "myth" until the 20th century, when the remains of the city was uncovered. Very little exists of that city and even less of it's people, but it's impact on the area was felt even as far as the Egyptian kingdom. 

If a solitary expedition of Vikings, Romans, etc, managed to land in South America, if by accident (blown off course, trapped by Atlantic currents) or otherwise, there's a good possability that they never made it home and even less of a chance for them to leave any significent artifacts behind. So far, the only real artifact is a Roman shipwreck off the coast of Argentina but nothing beyond that.

There is also the chance that a viking ship led by Ullmann, could have ended up in Central/South America after it was blown off course around the year 967 A.D.


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## JohnAnthony (Oct 28, 2010)

GrauGeist said:


> Well...I've seen the skull of a T-Rex up close, sporting teeth up to 12 inches long...if I lived back in the ancient world, I would immediately believe I had seen the remains of a dragon (and probably swear off drinking for a long time).



There is also the possibility that certain ancient creatures survived into modern times. We know that it's possible because of the Coelacanth, an animal thought to have become extinct in the Cretaceous Period. It was discovered ALIVE and well in the 20th century!

Coelacanth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It may be possible that some type of flying reptiles survived into human history as well. The proof in the pudding would be finding the bones of said animals, bones that could be dated within the last 50,000 years or so.


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## mikewint (Oct 28, 2010)

JohnA, the coelacanth lives in the ocean and even today we have classified about 10% of the critters in the sea and dead critters sink so nothing from the ocean would surprise me. we know more about the surface of Mars than the deep trenches of the sea. So while anything is possible i wouldn't bet the ranch on it.
Grau, agreed, most likely dragon legends are based on fossil dino's. by the way all t. Rexs come from the US and there are only about 8 or 9 skeletons as i recall


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## RabidAlien (Oct 28, 2010)

Kinda makes one wonder how many partial skeletons have been uncovered, and mis-classified as something else, since they appeared to be similar to a dinosaur we know about already?


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## mikewint (Oct 28, 2010)

Most of those errors have been cleared up in the last 15 years or so as the bird-like nature of the dinos began to catch on. one of the biggest blunders was in england with the very first dino skeleton ever assembled the iguanodon. They made it quadrapedal instead of bipedal and put the front legs on rotated 90 degrees. here in the US they had the wrong heads on the brontos. there are,of course, many unanswered questions abot soft tissues and especially about their outer hides. the idea of feathers is begining to catch on


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## Maestro (Oct 29, 2010)

Speaking of dragons... Ever heard of the legend of _George and the Dragon_ ? Well, during my trip to Prague I figured out that the George in question was in fact a Czech king, and the head of the "dragon" in question was exposed in a room of the Castle of Karlstejn... It turned out to be a crocodile skull.

So, as crocodiles must be pretty rare in Czech Republic, it is understandable that a medieval king could have taken it for a fantastic/deamonic creature.


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## Colin1 (Oct 29, 2010)

Maestro said:


> Ever heard of the legend of _George and the Dragon_ ?
> 
> Well, during my trip to Prague I figured out that the George in question was in fact a Czech king, and the head of the "dragon" in question was exposed in a room of the Castle of Karlstejn... It turned out to be a crocodile skull


Yes I have

Reads like a pamphlet handed to British beer tourists. George was born in what is now Turkey, a serving soldier in the Roman army who was beheaded for defending the Christian faith against some typically megalomaniac Roman head of state. He didn't become the Patron Saint of England until England's victory at Agincourt.

He is also the Patron Saint of (the former) Czechoslovakia and around a dozen other places; I think Beirut, of all places, is one of them.


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## mikewint (Oct 29, 2010)

Thanks guys, learn something new every day. That crocs were not known is surprising because the Romans used them in the Coliseum when they flooded it for navel battles


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## tail end charlie (Oct 29, 2010)

Colin1 said:


> Yes I have
> He is also the Patron Saint of (the former) Czechoslovakia and around a dozen other places; I think Beirut, of all places, is one of them.



St George is the patron saint of moscow, there is relief sculpture of him over the entrance to the Kremlin.


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## mikewint (Oct 29, 2010)

Back to the Vikings, what we do know to be factual is that in 985 Bjarni Herjolfsson was part of a 25 ship fleet bring settlers to Greenland. He was blown off course, sailed three days west and discovered land. He repeated this tale to Lief Ericson. 
Lief sailed with 35 men from Greenland and discovered 3 new lands, Helluland (land of flat stones) believed to be Baffin Island;
Markland (Land of forests) somewhere along the coast of Labrador and finally in 1001 Vinland (Land of wine or today meadows) located somewhere south of Markland and today believed to be the discovered Norse settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows at the northernmost tip of Newfoundland.
Lief stayed 2 years and returned to greenland.
In 1004 Thorvald Lief's brother returned picked a fight with local Indians and was killed by an arrow. the norsemen stayed another year and returned to greenland in 1005
In 1006, Thorstein another brother returned to retreive his brothers body and left that summer
In 1010 Thorfinn Karlsefni put together 3 ships and 160 settlers and returned to Liefs camp.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 29, 2010)

If I remember correctly, the vikings also founded what is today known as Russia.....


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 29, 2010)

Yup, the Swedes explored quiet a bit to the East becoming known as Rus's and Varangians, made their way to Byzantine where they became the Varangian Guards. IIRC Rus came from the word tributary or some other branch of water


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## Lucky13 (Oct 29, 2010)

True....isn't there some viking graffiti on some lions down there, was it Istanbul?


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## tail end charlie (Oct 29, 2010)

Lucky13 said:


> If I remember correctly, the vikings also founded what is today known as Russia.....



Well I dunno about founding they were certainly there in a big way, when I worked in Russia I was amazed how many red headed women they were,one 6 yr old girl was alarming, she was a dead ringer for my daughter but ten yrs difference, when I showed the girls mother a picture of my daughter at the same age she was equally freaked out (when she checked I hadnt been secretly taking pics of her kids


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 29, 2010)

Lucky13 said:


> True....isn't there some viking graffiti on some lions down there, was it Istanbul?



You are correct sir!


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## RabidAlien (Oct 29, 2010)

Heh....I picture this tall, blond, armored Viking with pointy horns and long flowing manly-man 'stache, carving "Thurvald wuz heer" into some stone lion's butt amidst the carnage and destruction of the pillaging that traditionally follows a thorough Viking trouncing. Probably used a Turkish spear to chisel with, too.


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## JohnAnthony (Oct 30, 2010)

.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 30, 2010)

lmao!  Well, sounds about right or p*ss napalm and sh*t barbed wire....


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## RabidAlien (Oct 30, 2010)




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## Maximowitz (Oct 30, 2010)

Knowing quite a few Swedish/Norwegian/Danish folk I can assure you that the Viking tendencies of their forefathers are now sublimated.

Nice polite chaps and very helpful.






Until you get a drink in them.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 30, 2010)

We were....are very timid and helpful people, used to and still do, help old ladies over the street......by tossing them over!


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## Maestro (Oct 31, 2010)

Lucky13 said:


> help old ladies over the street......by tossing them over!





Yep, Vikings "colonized" western Russia (the name "Russia" comes from the name of the tribe that colonized the land : "Rus").

They also founded the Irish city of Dublin, which is an old Danish word for "the port".

An interresting note : Vikings were good slave merchants (selling them mostly in Persia). The men that were enslaved by the Vikings were almost always castrated to prevent them from "impregnanting" a female slave.

Which means, if you ever had to fight the Vikings, you were better win... Or die on the battlefield.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 31, 2010)

Hate to think how they did it......


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## Maximowitz (Oct 31, 2010)

Lucky13 said:


> Hate to think how they did it......



Well, you know how hard you can slam the door on a Volvo....


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## Maestro (Oct 31, 2010)

Maximowitz said:


> Well, you know how hard you can slam the door on a Volvo....


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## JohnAnthony (Oct 31, 2010)

.


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