# why nobody gibe credit to china???



## solid_snake (Apr 8, 2005)

its all USA, UK russia and even france... whi no one gibes credit to china???? knowing thefact that more than 60% of japanese soildiers killed in action was figthing the chinese not the americans or british


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## kiwimac (Apr 8, 2005)

Welcome Solid_Snake, I hope you enjoy your time here on ww2 aircraft.net. 

More details please, can you refer us to books and / or websites that will give us more information?

Kiwimac


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## evangilder (Apr 8, 2005)

I actually have a tremendous amount of respect for the Chinese. They had a heck of a fight and did one hell of a job. My cousin was involved in the Doolittle raid. If the Chinese had not helped him, he may have gotten home, but it would have been much more difficult. The Chinese who helped him knew that if they were caught, it would cost them their lives, yet they did it anyway. It cost many of them just that.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 8, 2005)

i must admit i know little about the war in china.........


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## evangilder (Apr 8, 2005)

It is a piece of WWII history that is often not discussed or mentioned. It is kind of odd, because China was invaded very early in the war by the Japanese. China is also the first place the Zero was sent for operations.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 8, 2005)

and what was there to oppose them??


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 8, 2005)

Is this THE Solid Snake?  I bow down before you, big boss


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## Anonymous (Apr 9, 2005)

We just don't discuss China much here becasue this is the *"Aircraft of World War II"* forum. China didn't have its own air-force (other than the AVG), and didn't produce its own warplanes. So it is rairly discussed here except w.r.t. the AVG, or incidentally.

=S=

Lunatic


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 9, 2005)

well that explains it........


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## evangilder (Apr 9, 2005)

RG_Lunatic said:


> We just don't discuss China much here becasue this is the *"Aircraft of World War II"* forum. China didn't have its own air-force (other than the AVG), and didn't produce its own warplanes. So it is rairly discussed here except w.r.t. the AVG, or incidentally.
> 
> =S=
> 
> Lunatic



Really?! Then you might want to ask these guys where they were...

Name and number of kills

Li Kwei-Tan 12 
Liu Tsui-Kan 11 
Lo Chu 11 
Chen Jui-tien 6 
Chow Ting-fong 6 
Huang Shing-Yui 6 
Kwang Hsin-Jui 6 
Liu Chung-Wu 6 
Chu Chin-hsun 5 
Hwang Pei-yang 5 

This is the list of Chinese aces of WWII. It was made up of planes made in other countries, but they did have an air force. Because _you_ haven't heard about it doesn't mean it didn't exist. Do a google search, you will find quite a bit of info.

In addition to the AVG, there was also a Russian Volunteer Group that rarely gets mentioned. The Chinese had 11 Air Groups, 6 bomber groups and 5 fighter groups.


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## kiwimac (Apr 9, 2005)

Evan,

Can you provide some links especially to the chinese aces and to the Russian Volunteer group.

Kiwimac


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## mosquitoman (Apr 9, 2005)

What aircraft did they fly?


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## evangilder (Apr 9, 2005)

They flew a number of aircraft, a pretty wide variety. They had some french, russian and american planes. They also flew some captured aircraft (A small number). Towards the end of the war, they even flew about 50 P-51s. The lists that I have seen are fairly incomplete and I don't read Chinese, so it is not an easy thing to research. There are also some conflicting numbers and such. Like I said, there is stuff on the web, but be cautious to check it against other sources.


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## Anonymous (Apr 9, 2005)

Well then this is a good topic for someone to research and present 

I look forward to reading it (hint hint).

=S=

Lunatic


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 9, 2005)

sorry it's outside the british empire.............


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 9, 2005)

Well look at this...






_The TB-3 heavy bomber was the workhorse of the pre-war Soviet offensive bomber forces. Designed by the Tupolev Design Bureau between 1925-30 it has the distinction of being the first all-metal four-engined monoplane bomber. Between 1932 and 1938 a total of 819 machines were made in four military and two civil modifications.
In August 1937 the Soviet Government determined to offer the Chinese assistance against the Japanese. TB-3 were therefore delivered to the Chinese Air Force. On 20 May 1938 six TB-3 made a flight over Japan to drop leaflets.
_




_Heinkel 111 came to WWII aviation history as one of the best medium-range bomber. But born of future great plane accompanied with big problems and combat service of the first-built planes was very short.
Just after Adolf Hitler became Chancellor of the Third Reich process of breaking of the Versailles Treaty began. But Germany couldn't throw challenge to Britain and France and conception of Bomber aviation creating consist from building transport planes which could be converted to bombers when war started.
On February, 24 1935 first flight of the new plane took place. Flying performances was satisfied and plane returned to factory for improves. Reichsluftahrtministerium at the end of 1935 ordered pre-production batch from 10 aircrafts, which received official name He-111 A. Unlike prototype, He-111A was more heavily (on 520 kg) and cruising speed reduced to 168 mph (270 km/h). New plane admitted unsuitable for Luftwaffe.
This decision was unexpected for Heinkel, who had already initiated the flight testing of much powerful prototype He-111V5.
But in same time Chinese military purchasing commission was in Germany. During China-Japanese boarding conflict they had mandate from Chiang Kai-shek government obtain any bombers.
Soon six He-111A with deleted bomb sights and radio equipment were disassembled and shipped to China by see. At the end of 1936 all six new bombers joined to Chinese air forces.
They were first operationally used in attack against Japanese army near Shanghai, being flown with Martin 139 and Boeing 281 escort planes. Five of the six He-111A participated in this mission but inexperienced Chinese crews forgot lift ventral gunner position and Heinkel fell behind the Martin's and Boeing's. Japanese fighters shot down three of them, other returned to base.
Survived three He-111A still in service until Autumn 1937.
One He-111 was lost in flying accident on 1939, when Chinese gunnerfrom other aircraft shot down him by mistake.
He 111A - the first serial-built modification of famous Luftwaffe medium bomber He 111, which served until the end of World War II. Six of this type were built and all of them were purchased by Chinese government. This plane was not adopted to the Luftwaffe service but all six built aircrafts took part in conflict between China and Japan on late 1936.
_




http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?ICM-72092


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 9, 2005)

wow didn't know about them being used in china..........


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 9, 2005)

Me neither...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 9, 2005)

so how'd you find out, were you looking for something else or them in particualr??


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 9, 2005)

I was looking for aircraft used in China during WW2, and that came up. I could look for more but I cant be bothered, at least that shows I tried


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 9, 2005)

what about fighters though??


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 9, 2005)

I am NOT your slave 

Ill have a look.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 9, 2005)

you do that..........


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 9, 2005)

On a video I have about the P-40 it talks about the service it did with the "Flying Tigers" whilst in China. One fact I can remember is that when the numbers of P-40's were getting low, Chinese craftsmen carved replicas out of wood and were painted, so as to look like they had many P-40's left.


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## kiwimac (Apr 9, 2005)

Fighters used in China During ww2



> Fighter Aircraft
> Armstrong Whitworth A.W.35 Scimitar* (13?)
> Breda Ba.27* (30, 11 known to have been delivered)
> ^Bregeut Bre.19* (74)
> ...



Source: http://users.senet.com.au/~mhyde/ww2_aircraft_china.htm#fighter



> Bomber, Ground Attack and Torpedo Aircraft
> 
> Curtiss A12 Shrike* (20)
> Curtiss Wright CW-19R* (20)
> ...



Source: ibid

Oh and BTW this will explain the markings used in the above information



> a caret - ^ -indicates that the type was used during the Sino/Japanese war but not subsequently in WW2.
> · an asterisk - * - indicates that the aircraft type was not manufactured or assembled by this operator. It may have been imported, captured, impressed or supplied under lend-lease.
> · a hash - # - indicates that the aircraft type was experimental, or series production did not occur.



Kiwimac


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## Gemhorse (Apr 9, 2005)

Yep, I recall they got some Curtiss Hawk 75's early on, and have read a little of the Jap-China War in 1939....The Japs were also having a go at the Russians too, somewhere around this time.....

Great new siggy, CC !!!

Yours too, Kiwimac...[love to know how you get them moving.....]

And Evan, a very tidy Yak, complementary to the Restoration guys...

Gemhorse


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## evangilder (Apr 10, 2005)

The problem with researching the Chinese AF of WWII is that there is some info out there, but some of the sources conflict. I don't read Chinese and the people I know that do wouldn't be much help as alot of the technical jargon that they would not understand. Perhaps I could research that in the future for a presentation, but the schedule for the year is already booked up. I will see when I can get to that. It's a big project to get the proper and correct info for.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 10, 2005)

i wouldn't even know where to start 

but great lists there, and you can't help but feel sorry for the poor buggers at times


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## GT (Apr 10, 2005)

Update.


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## mosquitoman (Apr 10, 2005)

They really didn't have good equipment but if some pilots were getting kills out of these obsolescent planes they must have been good


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## evangilder (Apr 10, 2005)

They certainly were. I guess you were either a great pilot or a target. Could you imagine the damage these guys could have done with some more modern planes? Although they did get some mustangs late in the war.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 10, 2005)

but you have to remember they wouldn't all be brilliant pilots, many of them were proberly shot down with ease..........


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## mosquitoman (Apr 10, 2005)

As is the case with all air arms


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 10, 2005)

sorry i just thought i'd point that out as everyone was saying how amazing they were..........


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 10, 2005)

But they were amazing if the were taking people out with old, obsolescent biplanes...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 10, 2005)

yes but i'm just trying to say they wouldn't have all been amazing, some of them would have been quite easy to shoot down...........


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 10, 2005)

Well that only stands to reason, don't it?


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 10, 2005)

Well of course, like MM said, its the same with all air arms. However that doesnt detract from the fact that they were very capable pilots...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 10, 2005)

yes bvut everyone was saying how amazing they ALL were, yes some were amazing, i was simply saying they wouldn't all have been............


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 10, 2005)

Actually no-one said they were ALL amazing...

MM said "...but if *some* pilots were getting kills out of these obsolescent planes..."

and evan said "I guess you were either a great pilot or a target"


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## Anonymous (Apr 10, 2005)

One thing you have to remember is the Japanese planes they faced early on were not the infamous Zero and Oscar we are familiar with. Against China in the 30's the Japanese were using those fixed landing gear "Clauds" and there own bi-planes. So bi-planes were not so badly outclassed.

Below are some images of the planes involved.

=S=

Lunatic


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## GT (Apr 10, 2005)

Update


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## wlrg2 (Dec 3, 2006)

solid_snake said:


> its all USA, UK russia and even france... whi no one gibes credit to china???? knowing thefact that more than 60% of japanese soildiers killed in action was figthing the chinese not the americans or british


Solid Snake;
I am currently writing a novel that contrasts the 1937 - 42 war in China. I appreciate the "Aces" of China. I would like to know if British and other armies, navies, airforces helped and Who of the Chinese can be singled out as heros. Any help you can give would be appreciated. Thanks in advance
roy


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## Matt308 (Dec 3, 2006)

What about Hong Kong. When did you blokes find that chunk of land, Lanc? Was that post war?


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## Gnomey (Dec 3, 2006)

Was given to us from China in 1897 for 100 years and we gave it back in 1997...


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## HealzDevo (Mar 14, 2007)

I also recall seeing a Polikarpov I-153 in Chinese Airforce Markings in Profile once. Will have to try and dig that out again, if I can...


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## renrich (Mar 14, 2007)

Interesting book about WW2 in China by Barbara Tuchman called "Stillwell and the American Experience in China"( I think) although mostly about ground fighting. The point the book makes over and over is that both the Nationalist and Communist leaders were preoccupied with fighting one another to the exclusion of cooperating with the Americans and British to defeat the Japanese. The Chinese did some good fighting when they were well led and decently equipped. One mis-conception many people have about the AVG is that they were fighting in China prior to Dec. 7. They actually flew no combat until after Dec.7 and were disbanded in July, 1942.


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## Juha (Mar 15, 2007)

Hello
a good internet site for the Sino-Japanese war, especially the early part of it is Håkans Aviation page - Sino-Japanese Air War 1937-45

HTH
Juha


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## HealzDevo (Mar 18, 2007)

Good link that one it seems to have quite a bit. Seems to be a bit light on with Aircraft pictures though....


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