# Newly discovered Me 262



## JonOlsen (Aug 2, 2018)

Hello everybody, 

Check out this picture of a previously unknown Me 262!
There's an article about it in the falkeins blog. Read about it here: FalkeEins - the Luftwaffe blog: 'new' KG 54 photo Me 262 B3(?)+AL, on airfield - sold for €3730 euros!

While some people have expressed doubts about this photo's authenticity, at least one expert who has examined it has concluded that it's genuine. 

Has anyone heard more about this machine, or do you have any thoughts about it? 

I'm excited...

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## ArmouredSprue (Aug 2, 2018)

Very interesting indeed

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## Capt. Vick (Aug 2, 2018)

Sure...why not...


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## fubar57 (Aug 2, 2018)

Hobby Boss must have known about it: 1:48 in 2014




​They got the squadron right but if the above link is correct, it seems they are guessing about the rest; 1./KG(J) 54 W.Nr.170075 / B3+SH

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## mokyme (Aug 2, 2018)

Certainly the fact that the grain of the paper is 'homologous' throughout the image is a factor that makes it genuine.

However, it is still possible to obtain photo paper of the WWII period and print and develop it using chemicals of that period.

Given the fact that the image is not very sharp it would take a very careful chemical analysis of the silver-gelatin print to determine if it was truly printed some 74 years ago. Using the same equipment as is used to detect minute quantities of drugs on passenger luggage you could detect traces of modern day chemicals that would have been used in the water during the developing of the print.

Still, despite this caveat, I would accept that in all probability it is genuine.

Darryl

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## GrauGeist (Aug 2, 2018)

Jean-Yves Lorant is a leading expert on period photography and subject authentication. He's verified this photo to be genuine.

If he says it's legit, it's legit.


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## Tieleader (Aug 2, 2018)

Gonna have to go with GrauGeist on this one. If the professional says it is, it is.
Still a hefty price tag though...

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## rudolph1951 (Aug 3, 2018)

Hope this helps:




Rudolph

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## JonOlsen (Aug 3, 2018)

Very interesting responses about the photo's authenticity! And Rudolph and Fubar, thank you very much for posting the excellent photos and illustrations of WNr. 170075 coded B3+SH. This Me 262 B-1a (two-seater trainer) should certainly help shed light on the newly discovered Me 262 coded B3+AL (a single seater). While they are not the same machine, and are different variants, their camouflage schemes are strikingly similar. Most noticeably, both feature the dashing white lightning bolt motif. Both also served with Kg(j) 54, though in different staffels. Given the strong similarities, I wonder whether our subject machine's WNr. might have been very similar to that of WNr. 170075. I'd like to propose that B3+AL was an early production machine.

From reading various posts by David Brown and others, I've gleaned that Me 262s from 170 *** production batches were early production machines.Therefore, WN.r 170075 must have been an early production Me 262, judging from the werkenummer. If our subject, B3+AL, had a similar werkenummer, we should likewise identify it as an early production Me 262. Though Jean-Yves Lorant apparently hasn't made out the werkenummer, the article from the FalkEins blog mentions that parts of it are just barely visible in the photo. I'd love to know how much of it is actually legible!

Just a few more observations in support of my theory that our subject was an early production machine... First, this Me 262 has the pie-shaped navigation light on the bottom of the fin. While this type of navigation light was seen on some later production machines, I believe it was much more commonly fitted to early production Me 262s. Secondly, it has a scribble-type camo painted over the base camo. Though it's hard to tell from the photo, the scribbly mottle can be seen starting from the mid-fuselage section. Many of the early production Me 262 A-2a fighter bombers featured this style of camo. This is especially evident on the early machines assigned to KG 51 which frequently had streaky or squiggly applications of a darker color painted over a lighter, pre-existing splinter scheme. Interestingly, Jean-Yves Loran has apparently identified our subject as an A-2a variant.

I've included here a beautiful picture of an early production Me 262 A-2a coded 9k+ YH. This shows the scribbly camo to great effect! Though not seen here, this machine was also fitted with the pie-shaped navigation light cover. Wurger very kindly supplied us with this photo from a recent thread. 

More thoughts?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 3, 2018)

rudolph1951 said:


> Hope this helps:
> View attachment 504107
> 
> Rudolph



Ah good old Giebelstadt. Used to fly in there quite a bit. It was only about a 20 min flight from my airbase. As a history buff, I always found it neat and fascinsting to be stationed at former Luftwaffe airfields.


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## Gnomey (Aug 3, 2018)

Interesting stuff!


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## yulzari (Aug 3, 2018)

Just to mention that one way to detect fakes is to find the original picture that was altered. Not that I am suggesting this applies here.


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## Chip B. (Aug 3, 2018)

Capt. Vick said:


> Sure...why not...



Greets Vick from a fellow Long Islander!

Might you be in the vicinity of Willis Hobby?

(Apologies, and Please excuse the momentary hijack of this thread. Now back to your regularly scheduled program)


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## Crimea_River (Aug 3, 2018)

Great post Jon. Regarding the camo scheme on the 170000 series aircraft, I found the following from David E. Brown when I researched my model of 9K+YH that you show above:

"KG 51 had a great number of Me 262s operational from the summer of 1944. It was the preferred destination for the Me 262 as this was a bomber unit (Kommando Schenk – KG 51) and so had the highest priority for the new jets. A great number of these came from the front end of the 170000 Werknummerseries as can be noted in Dan O’Connell’s Werknummerlist on the Stormbirds site (STORMBIRDS.COM - Luftwaffe Resources). Indeed, a close examination of one of the Classic photos shows a Werknummer in the same size, style and position as other 170000-series aircraft on the aircraft’s starboard fin. While it is not readable, the Werknummer position and style, layout of the underlying faded two-tone camouflage scheme and its grey tone in the images, the style of national and unit code markings together suggest that it was an early production 170000 Werknummerseries aircraft originally painted in the grey 74/75/76 scheme prior to the introduction of the late-war ‘green/brown’ colours in July 1944.

Having survived into 1945, “White Y” was given an overall (top and sides) meandering and dotted overspray of probably 81 Braunviolett to tone down the rather light grey appearance. This scheme and colour was applied to many nightfighters (Ju 88 G-1/6, Bf 110 G-4 and a few Me 262 B-1a’s) during the last months of the war to help conceal them on the ground. Colour photos of such aircraft reveal that the choice colour was *invariably 81*" [Bold Mine]."The camouflage pattern is indicative of the type applied at the unit level. It is highly probably that the colour 81 would also appear on the wing upper surfaces in a similar pattern to that on the fuselage sides and top. This dark over light 81/74/75 pattern and scheme would certainly afford significant concealment value for the late winter conditions (dominantly bare deciduous trees, snow-covered ground, etc).

It is instructive to note that photos of other KG 54 aircraft during the same period wore a reverse pattern (light over dark) on all upper surfaces. The application of a white welle/mäander (wave/meander) pattern was necessitated by the original darker all-green 83 or 81/82 upper surface scheme."

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## JonOlsen (Aug 3, 2018)

Excellent information, Andy. Thank you for sharing that. Your model of "White Y" is lovely, btw, and depicts the scheme very nicely. For those who haven't seen it, or would like to see it again, check it out.  **** DONE 1/48 Tamiya Me 262 A-2 Heavy Hitters Group Build


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## GrauGeist (Aug 3, 2018)

I'm going through the complete Me262 airframe list at the present, trying to see if I can try and narrow that particular aircraft down - this may take a while!

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## JonOlsen (Aug 4, 2018)

Very cool GrauGeist. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

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## Crimea_River (Aug 4, 2018)

JonOlsen said:


> Excellent information, Andy. Thank you for sharing that. Your model of "White Y" is lovely, btw, and depicts the scheme very nicely. For those who haven't seen it, or would like to see it again, check it out.  **** DONE 1/48 Tamiya Me 262 A-2 Heavy Hitters Group Build



Thanks Jon, I appreciate your comment. The 81 overspray went on way too thick though and I've since improved my airbrush skills - I hope!


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## JonOlsen (Sep 9, 2018)

Breaking News! On another forum someone named Micke D kindly sent me a link with a profile of this machine by Claes Sundin. Interestingly, Sundin identifies the WN.r as 170099. He depicts this Me 262 in greys overpainted with a scribbly dark green. This would confirm that B3+AL was indeed an early production Me 262 A-2a. Though not discussed previously in this thread, he also interprets the engine cowling intake as yellow rather than unpainted steel. Visually, this makes perfect sense, but I'd just assumed it was unpainted because it's extremely rare to see Me 262s with intake cowlings painted in staffel colors...rare but possible, just as it's rare to see a white lighting bolt... 
3./KG(J) 54
beautiful, huh?

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## JonOlsen (Sep 15, 2018)

Update: The WN.r is still unknown. I've contacted the artist of the profile, Claes Sundin, and he told me it's a "qualified guess". Seems like a reasonable guess to me!


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