# Trainbusting, Tankbusting, antishipping....KG's and ZG's?



## Lucky13 (Sep 10, 2009)

Read here and there about those that flew train, tankbusting and antishipping missions in the '88 I can understand, BUT....when you do that in the He 111(!), I get curious....
Seen the '111 with two torpedoes, nothing weird about that, probably good at it too, but trainbusting in the same machine.....is that about the same as take a p** or cr*p in very strong headwind??

I can't think that the '111 was a very easy plane to handle, avoiding fighers at altitude, but get down to the deck to pop steamlocomotives and whole trains, that gives a complete new meaning to being slighty on the crazy side.

The '88 had the nose to put extra guns/cannons in, the '110 had a few good ones in the nose, not as powerful as the '88's arsenal, but then you could always put another can opener or two under the belly. Now, how the h*ll do you equip a '111 for the same mission with that greenhouse of a canopy??

A completely different thing, how many of the JG's had Zerstorer staffelns attached to them?


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## Erich (Sep 10, 2009)

yes I have some info as this was before the Ju 88 C busters. He 111's were fitted up to 8 forward firing 2cm weapons, a special weapons pod in the belly. not usre how much of the nose was converted to be enclosed and armored maybe none of it but a full housing to hose Soviet trains and of course finding a good b/w photo maybe very problematic


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## lesofprimus (Sep 10, 2009)

Would love to see something come out of this....

Trainbusting He111's.... Whats next, Anti-Submarine Storch's???


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## Lucky13 (Sep 10, 2009)

Have a '111 sitting at my parents, was thinking making something different with it, if I don't find another one here.... Did they use any kind of airframe, H4, H6 etc., etc...?


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## lesofprimus (Sep 10, 2009)

Copy from another Forum Jan and E....

This rare photograph shows an He111 H-16 used by 14.(Eis)/KG55 the specialist train-busting unit. It has been fitted with six forward firing 20mm cannon. He111s of this unit were fitted with an electronic alitmeter that allowed them to fly at only 20 metres above the tracks. The Staffel lost nine crews but flew over 5,000 missions.


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## Maximowitz (Sep 10, 2009)

Nice picture!

Off the top of my head:

(Z) JG 5

(Z) JG 77


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## Erich (Sep 10, 2009)

that's right man. good job hunt on that . looks like 3 nose/ 3 - belly stingers for the part, there may have been some gondola stuff too under the wings but can't remember. gotta give the ground techs credit on adaption.

HOOD THE PHONE...........what is that long thing protruding back along the lower fuselage, do my Opa eyes deceive me or is that another heavy weapons package with two 2cm ? ~~ nah stupid lower gunners position most probably, why bother .......

I'm still pretty messed up over my Dad and his estate which is getting worked on but somewhat of a train wreck to use the expression. wouldn't mind using a 88C job right now on one firm on their front door .......... just to light a gigantic fireball under their butt's


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## lesofprimus (Sep 10, 2009)

U still got ur panzerschrek sittin in the office E, that might get em dancin alittle bit eh???


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## Erich (Sep 10, 2009)

D ~ I need to do a fly over with something big an impressive they are back in the east somewhere, as I do not have full postal addy. it is a reputable firm of which I will not mention here as i will get so OT easily...the local guy in Cali has been already bitch slapped by me and is now all cordial as he should of been with my aunt from the start. so my bro and I wait but only for so long as our reddish haired ancestory will not allow it


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## lesofprimus (Sep 10, 2009)

Damn red-haired fire breathin spawn of Satan.........

Just try to keep what little sense of humor u have left my man, things will improve....


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## 109ROAMING (Sep 10, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> Trainbusting He111's.... Whats next, Anti-Submarine Storch's???





Great pic man


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## Airframes (Sep 11, 2009)

Hope you get things sorted Erich. And yes, that looks like at least one 20mm in the gondola. Jeez, when they fired that lot, the darned bird must have started to fly backwards!!!


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## Lucky13 (Sep 12, 2009)

Agree with Dan and Terry, Erich....

Was the Stuka used for trainbusting as well, with its 37's?

Great Pic!


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## B-17engineer (Sep 12, 2009)

"Many of the Heinkels were modified to enable them to carry out low strike missions in the face of enemy air superiority. The specialist train busting unit 14.(Eis)/KG 55 had its Heinkels fitted with an electric alitmeter that enabled them to fly at tree top level over the railway tracks. The unit began using the Ju 88C-6 aircraft in this role. The unit lost nine aircraft but flew over 5,000 missions, this unit was disbanded on 27 April 1945." 

From wiki.


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## B-17engineer (Sep 12, 2009)

Stuka... I don't know much. Here is someones grandmothers account of Stuka's attacking her train. 

"My grandmother used to tell an absolutley terrifying story about the occasion when she was travelling on a train which was attacked by 2 Stukas. To escape the Germans, my grandmother, uncle and aunt headed east however when the Russians invaded on September 17th they felt they would be safer with the Germans so they caught a train heading back west.

The train was packed out with people attempting to escape the Russians. It emerged from a forest and my uncle was the first to spot these 2 Stukas which decided the train would make a good target of opportunity.

She described how even above the noise of the train and the panic-stricken people inside it could not drown out the wail of the planes as they dived down at them. Inside the train the people could do nothing except sit and await their fate.

The Stukas dropped their bombs, de-railing the train, before swinging back and straffing the wreakage with machine gun fire. There were a huge amount of casualties amongst the largely civilian passengers but amazingly my grandmother, uncle and aunt all escaped with minor injuries."

Here's a site....

http://books.google.com/books?id=2Y...sult&resnum=5#v=onepage&q=Ju-87 Train&f=false


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## Lucky13 (Sep 12, 2009)

Thanks Harrison!


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## B-17engineer (Sep 12, 2009)

I thought that was one article out of an Osprey book not the whole book!  

And Rudel the famous Stuka pilot had some train kills to his credit I believe... !


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## Glider (Sep 13, 2009)

I admit to finding it difficult to believe that the He111 attacked the trains themselves. I say this as the He111 is a big slow target and trains tended to be well defended, anyone with an LMG could hardly miss such a target at 20m altitude. To lose 9 in 5000 sorties is an extordinarily low loss ratio.
Would it be more likely that they were used to attack the track, I have read that Ju88's were often used in this role.


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## Lucky13 (Nov 7, 2009)

....and this in a He 111!! 

Oblt Alfred Veith, 5/KG-55, He 111H, He ended the war with 400 combat missions, including the destruction of 27 locomotives, 24 AC on the ground and 16 tanks.


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## Erich (Nov 7, 2009)

no it was flying low on the horizon and firing up the trains with 2cm weapons. no bombs carried as far as I know


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## Civettone (Nov 9, 2009)

I am not surprised. The He 111 was an excellent aircraft and its performance was close to that of the Ju 88. If we had been talking about a Ju 88 no one would have surprised!


Kris


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## Maximowitz (Nov 9, 2009)

7 Staffel was the trainbusting component of KG 51... Ju 88 C- 6's if I remember correctly.


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## Lucky13 (Nov 9, 2009)

Those fellas could really make a good day turn not so good....


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## Civettone (Nov 9, 2009)

LOL !

Yeah imagine a whole bunch of soldiers finally relieved from the front, on their way to some remote place along the Black Sea for some much needed R&R ... and then this aircraft comes out of nowhere ... Yikes !


Kris


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## Lucky13 (Jan 8, 2010)

Does any number exist for how much tonnage that the '88 and the '111 destroyed or damaged? Also, which Geschwader was the most successful one?


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