# A Swastika, 60 Years Submerged, Still Inflames Debate



## syscom3 (Aug 31, 2006)

August 25, 2006
Montevideo Journal

By LARRY ROHTER
MONTEVIDEO, Uruguay, Aug. 24

For more than 60 years, the scuttled wreck of the Graf Spee rested undisturbed in 65 feet of murky water just outside the harbor here. But now that fragments of the vessel, once the pride of the Nazi fleet, are being recovered, a new battle has broken out over who owns those spoils and what should be done with them.

The private syndicate that recovered them wants to put the pieces up for auction, with the money to be divided evenly with the government, as law requires. But Uruguayan officials, fearing that an auction might let neo-Nazi groups acquire the artifacts, threaten to suspend the syndicate's permit and take control of the salvaging operation themselves. 

There are ethical limits on the promotion of Nazi symbols in museums, so who are the potential buyers of these icons if not neo-Nazis? said Miguel Esmoris, director of the government's National Heritage Commission. We're not against salvagers making a profit, but this is formally an archaeological site, and we cannot allow illicit trafficking in cultural and historical items.

The first items recovered, a cannon and a rangefinder, in 2004, caused little debate, except when the rangefinder was used in a fashion show. There are other pieces, too. But the recovery of the vessel's imposing nine-foot-high tailpiece, an eagle sitting atop a swastika, in February of this year and the announcement of plans to sell it ignited the current dispute.

Alfredo Etchegaray, a public relations executive, wedding and party organizer and amateur historian who leads the syndicate salvaging the Graf Spee, said that thus far his group had sunk $100,000 into the effort, excluding donated equipment and services. 

His lawyer, Daniel Ferrere, said most of the investors were Uruguayans but risk capital put up by Europeans and foreigners resident in Uruguay was also involved.

Commissioned in 1936, the Graf Spee was the most lethal of a class of pocket battleships developed by Nazi Germany. When World War II broke out, the vessel preyed on Allied shipping in the South Atlantic until a British-led battle group tracked it down at the mouth of the Rio de la Plata in December 1939.

In the battle that ensued, 113 crew members were killed. The Graf Spee's captain navigated to the safety of Montevideo harbor, a neutral port, but when told he had to leave, he scuttled his vessel rather than let its innovative technology fall into British hands. Shortly afterward, he committed suicide.

This was the first important Allied victory of World War II, so the Graf Spee is also a valuable trophy for Germany's enemies, Mr. Etchegaray said. 

He cited recent reports in British tabloids that collectors in Asia and the United States were willing to pay $15 million or more if he succeeded in putting pieces of the Graf Spee up for auction.

I've received e-mails from colleagues in Europe saying that neo-Nazi groups there are very interested in acquiring the eagle, said Roberto Bracco, a marine archaeologist here who has worked on other projects and is critical of the Graf Spee syndicate. This shows that the past, especially the recent past, must be managed carefully and that Germany, Britain and the Jewish community all need to be involved in the disposition of these pieces.

Mr. Etchegaray said that all potential bidders for the eagle would be carefully screened and that out of respect for the Jewish population, the insignia, at the moment in storage at a warehouse here, had been covered up so that the swastika was not visible. Leaders of the Jewish population here, just under 1 percent of the country's 3.3 million inhabitants, have applauded those steps but say they still have concerns.

We do not object to the recovery effort itself, said Ernesto Kreimerman, president of the Uruguayan Jewish Committee. This vessel is an historical artifact that offers testimony to one of the darkest periods of modern times. But when it comes time to commercialize the insignia, we believe that it must go to a museum, not into private hands, and that photographs be controlled.

Surviving crew members have expressed mixed feelings. Most of the Graf Spee's crew of 1,150 was interned here or across the river in Argentina during World War II, and many remained after the war.

This is madness, too expensive and senseless, Hans Eupel, an 88-year-old former torpedo mechanic, told reporters here last year, referring to the salvage effort. It is also dangerous, since one of the three explosive charges we placed did not explode.

Hector Bado, the syndicate's chief diver and Mr. Etchegaray's partner in the recovery effort, said exposure to sea water had eliminated the possibility of that charge going off. It's easy to criticize when you're doing nothing yourself, he said of the Uruguayan governments position. We're willing to work with them, but they have to be respectful of the efforts of others.

Another complicating factor is that Germany may also be claiming ownership of the vessel. Mr. Etchegaray said that he had received information to that effect, and that even rumors of such a claim had slowed his efforts to raise money for further salvaging efforts and the auction.

A German Embassy official here, Theodor Proffe, said his government expressed its views to the Uruguayan Foreign Ministry in a note sent â€œa few weeks ago.

He declined to make a copy of the document available or to explain the official position, saying, We know this is a very sensitive issue, and so we try to play it on a low and quiet level.

Mr. Etchegaray said any German claim would be invalid because early in 1940 the Nazi government sold salvaging rights to the vessel to Julio Vega, an Uruguayan businessman. Official documents recently released in London, he said, show that Mr. Vega was actually acting on behalf of the British government, which later lost a pair of divers when they tried to examine the wreck. But any rights Mr. Vega or the British government might have had would have expired under Uruguayan law. 

Both Mr. Etchegaray and Mr. Bado said they hoped to use earnings from the sale of the eagle to continue their work at the Graf Spee site and to finance other projects involving sunken vessels from the Spanish colonial era. 

Were interested in this as pure history, and not in taking one side or another,Mr. Etchegaray said. History is full of horrible crimes, which have to be handled maturely, seriously and respectfully.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 7, 2006)

Well I think the ship needs to stay at the bottom of the ocean as a grave for the few people that scuttled it.

Imagine what kind of uproar it would recieve if someone wanted to raise the Arizona or the Hood.

If they were to raise it though, it should be returned to the German government.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 16, 2006)

question, how the hell can you use a range finder at a fashion show?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 16, 2006)

That is a good question and I dont know!


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## Henk (Sep 19, 2006)

Pictures of the wreck of the ship is pretty rare, but I say raise her and show us. I think the whole thing is being thrown way out of proportion and it is a WW2 relic and thus they should stop fighting over bull and get real.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 20, 2006)

The more I think about it, the more I disagree. I think the ship should be left at the bottom where she lies along with every componant of her. She is a war grave, and therefore the souls (even though it was just a skeleton crew) should be left to rest in peace there.


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## Henk (Sep 20, 2006)

No one died on the ship Adler only the ones who died in the battle against the British before she was scuttled.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 20, 2006)

Yes you are right, I forgot about that the the Captain and the demolition crew left on a barge before she blew up.

Still to me it is a grave and a memorial to those that did die from the ship.


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## Henk (Sep 20, 2006)

Ok, I see what you mean, but make it so taht we can see it and explore it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 20, 2006)

That I can agree with.


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## Henk (Sep 20, 2006)

They say the water is to muddy to get any good pictures or to have a propper dive on her.


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## CharlesBronson (Oct 5, 2006)

An interesting video of the bronze Eagle salvaged from the Graf Spee wreck in february 2006.

El Misterio del Aguila (Telenoche) - Google Video[/u


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## sto1291 (Aug 3, 2008)

im pretty sure the british recovered some things from the ship right after it was scuttled before it sunk completely


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## Thorlifter (Aug 3, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The more I think about it, the more I disagree. I think the ship should be left at the bottom where she lies along with every componant of her. She is a war grave, and therefore the souls (even though it was just a skeleton crew) should be left to rest in peace there.



I agree........... Let her be.


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## Wayne Little (Aug 3, 2008)

Second Thor's motion....but has it been left as is or not?


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## Njaco (Aug 3, 2008)

Just let her be.


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## mkloby (Aug 3, 2008)

I'm not sure how I feel...

Those that oppose - did you also think it would have been better to leave the P-38 buried beneathe the ice?


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## Lucky13 (Aug 3, 2008)

Should that be the case, how many LESS warbirds would there still be around in museums and in the air today? I think that it's a very thin line to walk and each subject deamands a very careful line of thinking....when it comes to respect etc.
How many wouldn't love to see those Type-XXI buried in that bunker come back into daylight and restored? Just to mention one thing....


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## RabidAlien (Aug 3, 2008)

I think its gotta be taken on a case-by-case basis. Glacier Girl was simply an airplane crash, nobody died IIRC. All the pilots in that group were rescued, and returned to battle. The Graf Spee was scuttled _after _the battle. I can understand the arguements for leaving her in place as a war monument/mausoleum, but I can also understand the side that wants to raise her, restore her, and turn her into a monument/museum. The USS Arizona, and countless other ships like her (someone else mentioned the HMS Hood) are tombs, pure and simple. Leave them be. In this case, though, I'm undecided. No matter what you do, you're gonna piss someone off.


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## Lucky13 (Aug 3, 2008)

Now, how about raising USS Yorktown CV-5, restore her and anchor her next to her namesake sister the USS Yorktown CV-10...hmmm?


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## RabidAlien (Aug 3, 2008)

CV-5 fought to the end to stay afloat, despite everything the IJN could throw at her. Dunno if today's technology would allow her to be refloated from that depth, but if the ship could speak, I think she'd like to breathe again. If nothing else, as a tribute to the men who fought and died (on multiple) ships to keep her afloat.


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## Oreo (Aug 3, 2008)

I don't know if it really matters. I say, bring any ship up if it's fiancially viable to do so, and give the poor sailors' bones a proper burial, just like they do when they find battlefield skeletons. If there is a privately funded group who wishes to do it, regardless the nationality or history of the ship, go for it. Treat the dead with respect-- I think if they had a way of making their wishes known, they would rather have their story told than to simply be forgotten in the murky waters of time. What about ships from WWI? What about the Spanish American War? The Civil War? The Revolution? Are they just sunken tombs as well? No one fussed much when they brought up the Hunley, did they?


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## Henk (Aug 4, 2008)

When that rich @sshole that owns the Titanic museum in New York salved the Titanic I was very pissed. Robert D. Ballard did not claim the wreck because he said it belongs to those who died on it and to no one else and should be left alone, but the Graf Spee is something else. I understand both sides of the argument.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 4, 2008)

Henk the Titanic still lays on the bottom of the ocean. No one has salvaged here. I dont think they coudl if they tried. It would be crushed as they tried to raise her.


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## Henk (Aug 5, 2008)

Oh sorry mate, my eyes are now bad without me glasses. I meant they cut peaces out of her and took a lot of things from the Titanic wreck.


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## Lucky13 (Aug 5, 2008)

Have to agree with you there Henk...


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## RabidAlien (Aug 5, 2008)

Once again, a case-by-case basis. IIRC, this guy brought up pieces of the ship, and bought up alot of memorabilia just to make a profit off it. "Hey guys I've got a museum full of Titanic stuff, you'll love it, come pay to look at it!" Putting it on display as a memorial to the ship and those who lost their lives due to Mankind's collosal ego, hopefully so we can learn a lesson from that past mistake...that would be a whole nudder ball of wax. To me, profiting from past catastrophies is about as low as mankind can sink. Raising the past in order to build a memorial to honor those who died, I can understand that, and will support those efforts as much as possible.


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## Henk (Aug 7, 2008)

RabidAlien said:


> Once again, a case-by-case basis. IIRC, this guy brought up pieces of the ship, and bought up alot of memorabilia just to make a profit off it. "Hey guys I've got a museum full of Titanic stuff, you'll love it, come pay to look at it!" Putting it on display as a memorial to the ship and those who lost their lives due to Mankind's collosal ego, hopefully so we can learn a lesson from that past mistake...that would be a whole nudder ball of wax. To me, profiting from past catastrophies is about as low as mankind can sink. Raising the past in order to build a memorial to honor those who died, I can understand that, and will support those efforts as much as possible.



Amen mate.


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## JugBR (Aug 7, 2008)

RabidAlien said:


> Once again, a case-by-case basis. IIRC, this guy brought up pieces of the ship, and bought up alot of memorabilia just to make a profit off it. "Hey guys I've got a museum full of Titanic stuff, you'll love it, come pay to look at it!" Putting it on display as a memorial to the ship and those who lost their lives due to Mankind's collosal ego, hopefully so we can learn a lesson from that past mistake...that would be a whole nudder ball of wax. To me, profiting from past catastrophies is about as low as mankind can sink. Raising the past in order to build a memorial to honor those who died, I can understand that, and will support those efforts as much as possible.



amen [2]


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## HerrKaleut (May 26, 2009)

This will sound silly to most of you but, speaking as an ex-matelot, ships have souls. Once they have gone...leave them alone. Respect them, dive on them to see them if you must but leave them alone. To me it is the same as digging up bodies and taking bits away. As for entering or taking from a wreck that is a war grave or one where loss of life was incurred,....some people have no sense of decency or propriety and should be shunned as the scumbags that they are.

Sorry to sound off, I just feel strongly about this


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## fly boy (May 26, 2009)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Well I think the ship needs to stay at the bottom of the ocean as a grave for the few people that scuttled it.
> 
> Imagine what kind of uproar it would recieve if someone wanted to raise the Arizona or the Hood.
> 
> If they were to raise it though, it should be returned to the German government.



has anyone found the hood yet and it was sunk by the bismark yes?


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## Colin1 (May 26, 2009)

fly boy said:


> has anyone found the hood yet and it was sunk by the bismark yes?


In terms of where it lies it was never lost and yes, it was sunk by the Bismarck


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 26, 2009)

fly boy said:


> has anyone found the hood yet and it was sunk by the bismark yes?



As quoted by an official source:

_"The wreck had lain undisturbed for over 60 years until its discovery by David Mearns's team on 19 July 2001. It lies in the Irminger Basin of the Denmark Strait between Iceland and Greenland at a depth of approximately 9,200ft / 2,804m. It is in the "vicinity" of 632200N 0321700W, or roughly 270 miles / 400km west-southwest of Reykjavik, Iceland."_

The website also has many pictures taken of the wreck.

H.M.S. Hood Association-Battle Cruiser Hood


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## BombTaxi (May 26, 2009)

The _Graf Spee_ should be left alone - she is a war grave, after all. I always find it hard to understand why people view shipwrecks differently from cemeteries. If someone started digging up the US cemeteries in Normandy, or the UK sites on the Somme, there would be an outcry - but poking around the remains of a sunken ship seems to be perfectly OK 

I appreciate what some people say about recovering the remains of the crew and giving them burial ashore, but as far as I can tell, it is the tradition that those killed at sea are buried at sea, either seperately with a full funeral, or with their ship if they go down with her. I do not see a good reason to change these traditions at the present time.

I believe I am right in saying that all RN ships lost in action, at least since WWII, are designated war graves and may not be exploited in the way Graf Spee is. Something should be done in legislation to make Graf Spee a protected site - she fought a brave fight, and those who perished aboard her deserve no less than to rest in peace. Vanquished enemies they might have been, but first and foremost they were sailors and fighting men. We expect no less for the dead of HMS Hood...

I'll get off me soapbox now...


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## Amsel (May 26, 2009)

Here, Here!


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## Vassili Zaitzev (May 26, 2009)

I'm kind of torn on this. One hand, yes, the wreck should be left alone to respect the dead. On the other hand, raising a few artifacts as a *Memorial* would also suffice. I cannot stand people who use the artifacts of a shipwreck to garner a profit, such as whomever brought up that piece of hull of the Titanic, so people could pay to see it. In the end, I think the ship should be left where it is. Not only as a memorial to all those lost in the battle of the River Plate.


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## syscom3 (May 26, 2009)

Vassili Zaitzev said:


> I'm kind of torn on this. One hand, yes, the wreck should be left alone to respect the dead. On the other hand, raising a few artifacts as a *Memorial* would also suffice. I cannot stand people who use the artifacts of a shipwreck to garner a profit, such as whomever brought up that piece of hull of the Titanic, so people could pay to see it. In the end, I think the ship should be left where it is. Not only as a memorial to all those lost in the battle of the River Plate.



I agree.

A few pieces of the ship placed in a museum is fine with me.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 27, 2009)

syscom3 said:


> I agree.
> 
> A few pieces of the ship placed in a museum is fine with me.



If it were pieces of the Arizona would that be fine with you?

I am very torn on this subject now. Part of me does not believe it should be touched as I look at it as a war grave, but the other part of me realizes that the ship was actually scuttled. So is it a war grave?


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## BombTaxi (May 27, 2009)

I think, Adler, that as men died aboard her in combat, she is a war grave. By that logic, I would extend the same status to the many, many wrecked merchantmen littering the floors of the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, victims of the German and US submarine campaigns, and I would also include the carriers and other ships sunk by enemy aerial action. IMHO, the key fact is that tghe ship saew combat and men died serving her country aboard her. That is enough to warrant war grave status in my book.


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## syscom3 (May 27, 2009)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> If it were pieces of the Arizona would that be fine with you?
> 
> I am very torn on this subject now. Part of me does not believe it should be touched as I look at it as a war grave, but the other part of me realizes that the ship was actually scuttled. So is it a war grave?



Yes, it would be fine to me. Remember that the ship also was cut up after the raid and many bodies were recovered and buried ashore. I think the Arizona is not a true war grave.

But even so, for those ships that still have the dead on board, some momento's should be removed and placed into museums.

In fact, it should be done whenever possible. A fitting monument for the dead. Once the ship recedes into the memories of history, fewer and fewer people will even know it existed. And that's a tragedy. When people no longer remember the ship and its crew.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 28, 2009)

I can certainly agree with both of your posts. That is why I am sort of torn.


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## RabidAlien (May 28, 2009)

I'm torn also, but I view the Arizona in a different light. The Arizona lies so close to the surface that there are still several structures that are exposed to air (barely). This allowed the Arizona Memorial to be built above her, allowing hundreds of thousands to come pay their respects to the ship and its brave crew every year. Personally, removing pieces and parts of a ship for the express purpose of souvenier hunting, to me, is looting a grave. Bringing pieces of a ship back up for historical research, display in a museum, or physically raising the entire ship again and restoring her as a floating museum is, to me, NOT an act of looting or sacrilege. This, as Sys pointed out, is a way to keep the memory of the ship and the crew that went to rest with her, alive. No matter what side she served on, the men served their countries bravely, and should not be forgotten. So I personally have no problems with finding and raising a ship....it simply depends on the motives behind it.

Besides....planes are found in the jungles and islands of the Pacific all the time, the pilots' remains returned to their respective countries for proper burial and recognition, and the planes (hopefully) restored as static displays. A sunken ship is, in essence, the same thing, but on a larger scale. I guess it all comes down to a judgement call on the part of each person/country.





Heh. Just scrolled back through older posts....forgot I'd already commented on this one. Man...I need a decent night's sleep....


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## sturmer (Jun 3, 2009)

i dont even think it would be possible to raise the ship, it lies 60 yrs under water. if they would raise it then they would have to start restoring her at once, otherwhise the rust-process would start to desintegrate (sry if spellt wrong) the ship from the moment it starts to surface and comes in contact with air.
i would say like some others, let her be.


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## Messy1 (Jun 3, 2009)

From Wikipedia. The articles claims that one reason the wreck is being raised is because it is a hazard to navigation. James Cameron is mentioned in the article as filming the process.

German pocket battleship Admiral Graf Spee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apparently, the ship is not in deep water.

"Immediately after the scuttling in shallow water, much of the ship's superstructure remained above water level, but then over the years the wreck subsided into the muddy bottom and today only the tip of the mast remains above the surface."


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## Messy1 (Jun 3, 2009)

Here is a pic of the ship after the scuttling.


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## diddyriddick (Jun 4, 2009)

I agree with the prevailing winds here-leave her be. However, since she is so close to the surface, the grave robbers will undoubtedly loot her for artifacts. If so, it seems to me that some artifacts in a museum make sense. It would be a great opportunity to highlight the sacrifices made by the German Navy.


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