# Best Ace of WW1



## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 14, 2004)

In my opinion without a shadow of a doubt (yes, even with the 'Red Baron' in mind) it was Lanoe Hawker...

Even though he only scored 7 kills in his FE2b 'pusher' aircraft for the RAF before being shot down in Nov 1916 by the Red Baron   he was still the best pilot of that era in my mind - he was the first pilot to win a victoria cross during the great war's air conflict 

when his career first began fighting the Germans he flew a Bristol Scout aircraft but he eventually upgraded to the Fe2b aircraft which was his favourite and proceded to shoot down his enemies...with a bolt-action hunting rifle instead of machine guns...beat that 8)

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/england/hawker.html


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## Crazy (Apr 14, 2004)

I don't know about 'the best' ace of WWI, but my favorite has to be Eddie Rickenbacker. A race car driver before the war, he proposed making a squadron made up entirely of race car drivers. Eventually dropping this, he joined the 'Hat in the Ring' 94th Squadron, shooting down 22 aircraft and four balloons. He recieved the Congressional Medal of Honor, the Distinguished Service Cross, and the French Croix de Guerre. 8) 

He died in 1973


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 15, 2004)

How did i know you'd vote for an American?   

But seriously Eddie Rickenbacker was an amazing pilot and certainly one of the best of the war 8)


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 16, 2004)

does anyone know who shot the red baron down?


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 16, 2004)

no one knows for sure, its a toss up between Aussie ground gunners and a Canadian guy named Roy Brown who usually gets the credit... BUT! when they found his body in his plane, he was slumping so that makes it seem as though he was shot from below, but it could also be that he was shot from above, who knows? .......................................


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 16, 2004)

Crazy said:


> I don't know about 'the best' ace of WWI, but my favorite has to be Eddie Rickenbacker. A race car driver before the war, he proposed making a squadron made up entirely of race car drivers. Eventually dropping this, he joined the 'Hat in the Ring' 94th Squadron, shooting down 22 aircraft and four balloons. He recieved the Congressional Medal of Honor, the Distinguished Service Cross, and the French Croix de Guerre. 8)
> 
> He died in 1973


 he also flew Bf109s in Africa! kinda..... he test flew captured ones after the war was over! ill post what he thought of it (it was a G model if my memory serves me correctly) once i can find the bloody magazine that contains it


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 16, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> does anyone know who shot the red baron down?




Actually Germans you would have been right about a year ago that no-one knows who killed him but now they DO know who killed him as they looked at the post-mortem report a doctor made at the time...

The Red Baron was being fired at from 3 different positions...

1) Captain brown in his Camel (right behind the Baron)
2) A handful of Soldiers manning a Lewis gun on the ground (To his left)
3) A Commenwealth solider with a .303 Lee Enfield bolt-action rifle (to his right)

Manfred Von Richtofen was killed by a single bullet that entered his body under his right armpit and became lodged under his left nipple (in other words it went straight through his chest and remained lodged there) The shot killed him- but not straight away -he was able to land his plane - ( testament to what an excellent pilot he was, there aren't many pilots around that could take a .303 round in the chest and still land their plane ) 

A soldier rushed over to his plane and the Red Baron apparently tried to speak to him but the soldier didn't speak German so his words were lost forever...but after examining the reports made at the time they say looking at the angle of the entry wound and the position of the bullet (blah blah blah) basically proves without a shadow of a doubt that the Baron was killed by a single shot from the Commenwealth Rifleman who was an Australian named Cedric Popkin (what a name!  )

Yes it was flukey but it is also true - they proved it

The Baron's body was buried by the British and Australian forces in the area with full military honours and a scout plane dropped a note over German territory to deliver the news

http://www.anzacs.net/who-killed-the-Red-Baron.htm


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## kiwimac (Apr 17, 2004)

Still to my mind, the Red Baron is the creme de la creme of WW1 flyers.

Kiwimac


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 17, 2004)

he sirtainly was good................


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 20, 2004)

cheers, thanks bronze, that made interesting reading  8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 24, 2004)

i saw a show about all that one, they said it was two bullets that kiled him..........


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## plan_D (May 4, 2004)

Yes it was, he had two bullets in him. They still don't know how he managed to get in that state, and unable to avoid his defeat. And one theory being he blacked out due to a head injury he had suffered previous, he was advised not fly. 

He was still the best. 

I've read, and heard many tales of WW1 pilots killing others with rifles.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 16, 2004)

doesn't supprise me, that's how the 1st plane of the war was shot down...............


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## Crazy (May 16, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> doesn't supprise me, that's how the 1st plane of the war was shot down...............



Wouldn't that just be a bugger of a thing...


"Hey, look there! It's a German recon plane!" *Pilot waves*

*German fires rifle*

"Oh SH**!!"


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

It wouldn't be very funny, we'll say that.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 23, 2004)

well the first few times enemy planes met they waved and tried to shout at each other, that soon changed.......................


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 22, 2004)

Manfred von Richthoffen the great Red Baron was probably the greatest and for me is actually the greatest of all times because he was the ace of aces in WW1 the first war with aircombat. Not to take anything away from the other great aces of WW1 from England and America but if I recall from reading a book on Richthoffen when he died airmen from many nations including England, France and the US attended his ceremony along with Germans that says something about the respect the man recieved. I can only think of one other soldier who still today is so highly respected by his enemies and that is Rommel. I attend his memorial service every year near Ulm, Germany and there are German, French, British, and American soldiers there dressed in there best uniforms laying wreaths and flowers at his grave. Even many of the surviving members of the famed Afrika Korps are there in there uniforms, it really is a somber sight to see and very amazing.


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## KraziKanuK (Feb 8, 2005)

WW1 aces

http://www.wwiaviation.com/aces/aces.shtml


No one mentioned Mannock(73) or Bishop(72)?

Besides the Baron, there was Oberl. Ernst Udet(62) and Oberlt. Erich Löwenhardt(56).


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## Erich (Feb 8, 2005)

Believe it or not but the chap, slim at one time during WW 1, Hermann Göring was quite a competent pilot flying his famous all white Fokker DVII. He was actually quite good. "Red" was excellent no doubt but there were quite a few other Pour le Merit winners that should be mentioned and no doubt French/British as well. quite a tribute should be shown these noble and brave pilots, flying nothing by our standards as total junk heaps, but boy could those little things turn.........

E ~


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## Erich (Feb 8, 2005)

did a little digging in my old ww1 files. Hermann Goering took over his white DVII with Red crosses in October of 1918 as Kommandeur of the 1st Jagdgeschwader "Richthofen"

Ernst Udet flew the craft a couple of times. The werke nummer of the white a/c was 3226 and had a BMW 3a engine.

Goering had 22 kills


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## Medvedya (Feb 8, 2005)

From what I've heard, Rudolf Hess was no slouch in the cockpit either.


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## Erich (Feb 8, 2005)

Med thanks for that will have to do some more research on his carreer. never knew he ever flew during ww 1. next thing is that we will find that H. Himmler the slime-ball as being a WW 1 ace !!


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## Erich (Feb 8, 2005)

heres a pic of fatty or should I say slim with his craft


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## plan_D (Feb 8, 2005)

Didn't Goering take over Richtofens Jasta 11, when he died?


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## Erich (Feb 8, 2005)

actually Manfred was leading JG 1 and after his death Wilhelm Reinhard took over till July 1918 when he was killed test flying an a/c and Göring then took over command of JG 1 till war's end. For Jasta 11 I am not sure


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## Medvedya (Feb 8, 2005)

Nah, Himmler was a Chicken Farmer - he did have a degree in Acricultural Economics though.


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## Douglas Jr. (Feb 19, 2005)

Hi,

From the German side I also would like to mention Oswald Böelcke. He was the leading ace among the pilots when he died in October, 1916, with 40 victories. 

Besides that he created the famous "Boelcke Diktat", the universal rules to any fighter pilot.

Just my two cents.

Douglas.


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## Nonskimmer (Feb 19, 2005)

KraziKanuK said:


> WW1 aces
> 
> http://www.wwiaviation.com/aces/aces.shtml
> 
> ...



Without trying to start an argument, Bishop's 72 kills were confirmed while only 61 of Mannock's were. Many sources choose to overlook that.
But then, there was René Fonck with 75 victories.


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## delcyros (Mar 21, 2005)

And he made probably more than the 75 confirmed. He usually kept on to flying lone missions over geman held terretory. No one knows how much he shot down there. And he managed to survive the war! The most inspiring for me are either Albert Ball or Werner Voss. Incredible pilots.


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## Concorde247 (Mar 22, 2005)

Medvedya said:


> Nah, Himmler was a Chicken Farmer - he did have a degree in Acricultural Economics though.







Hate to think what he did with the chickens!!!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 22, 2005)

kill and eat them??


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## Medvedya (Mar 22, 2005)

I think he was a vegetarian, in fact I'm pretty sure of it.


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## Concorde247 (Mar 22, 2005)

yes i think he was too -


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## GT (Apr 3, 2005)

Update.


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## Concorde247 (Apr 3, 2005)

GT said:


> What happened to the cups that Richthofen had engraved for every victory?
> 
> Regards
> GT



They were initailly made of silver - 1 for each kill, but towards the end of the war, when silver was hard to obtain, they were made out of another metal- probably pewter.

They used to be in the Richtofen family home, but when the russians occupied the territory in WW2 they packed them up sent them back to Russia. 

They are probably in a warehouse somewhere. i believe that the Richtofen Family have made an official request for their return - i dont know if they've got them back as yet.


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## Douglas Jr. (Apr 3, 2005)

Hmmm

Very strange this Pour Le Merite (Blue Max). Never saw one with a Crown. The only device that could be added to the PLM was a Oakleaves cluster, as far as I know...

Douglas.


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## GT (Apr 4, 2005)

Update.


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 9, 2005)

DON'T FORGET RAY COLLISHAW "BLACK FLIGHT" LEADER 61 KILLS. LATER BEACAME A VICE AIR MARSHAL. TOP SOPWITH TRIPLANE ACE, WAY BEFORE THE RED BARON!


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## delcyros (Apr 19, 2005)

8) cool sqaudron, very cool planes, indeed. But I stay with Albert Ball or Werner Voss. Both had incredible marksmanship and both got into really tough dogfights. Albert Ball is credited with early "in the turn" kills. Voss used his marksmanship to destroy the enemy engine, not to kill the pilot or destroy the entire plane...


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 19, 2005)

And Voss - So young! Wondered how Ball and Voss' careers would have gone if they survived the war?


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 21, 2005)

OK GUYS - WHO FORGOT WHAT DAY IT IS TODAY (APRIL 21)!


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## evangilder (Apr 21, 2005)

Isn't today the Queen's birthday?


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 21, 2005)

evangilder said:


> Isn't today the Queen's birthday?



 I thought you were going to say Snoopy's birthday!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 21, 2005)

yes it is the queen's birthday today, although she has two, a real one and an officail one...........


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 21, 2005)

God bless the Queen!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 21, 2005)

rather unusual attitude for an american??

wait  what am i saying!!

God save the Queen!!


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 21, 2005)




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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 21, 2005)

HEY BUT LET'S NOT FORGET....


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## Wildcat (Apr 21, 2005)

Robert Little was Australia's leading ace of WWI. When war broke out he couldn't wait to join up so he sailed over to Britain (because there was a long waiting list for flying school at Point Cook). Paid 100 pound for his flying certificate which he gained on Oct 27, 1915. Little immediately enlisted in the RNAS where he was sent to Dunkirk flying Sopwith 1 and a half strutters flying several bombing missions. 
On 26 Oct 1916 he was posted to 8 Naval Sqaudron flying Sopwith Pups where he claimed his first kills over the Western front. By March he had claimed 4 kills and was awarded a DSC. His unit then converted to Sopwith Triplanes were he claimed a further 24 victories. He then converted to fly Camels were he brought his score up to 38. He recieved a DSO and Bar to his DSC in August and was followed by a Bar to his DSO in September.
In March 1918 he joined 3(N) Squadron as a flight commander were he shot down a further 9 aircraft. On 27 May 1918, while trying to intercept a Gotha bomber at night he was caught up in a search light beam where he was shot though both thighs. Little crash landed near Noeux, but by the time his plane was found he had bled to death. No one knows whether the bullet came from the Gotha or from ground fire, which would be an unfortunate way for this great flyer to go, being killed by friendly fire.


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## Nonskimmer (Apr 21, 2005)

Very interesting. 8) 



the lancaster kicks ass said:


> yes it is the queen's birthday today, although she has two, a real one and an officail one...........


Which was this?


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 22, 2005)

Wildcat said:


> Robert Little was Australia's leading ace of WWI. When war broke out he couldn't wait to join up so he sailed over to Britain (because there was a long waiting list for flying school at Point Cook). Paid 100 pound for his flying certificate which he gained on Oct 27, 1915. Little immediately enlisted in the RNAS where he was sent to Dunkirk flying Sopwith 1 and a half strutters flying several bombing missions.
> On 26 Oct 1916 he was posted to 8 Naval Sqaudron flying Sopwith Pups where he claimed his first kills over the Western front. By March he had claimed 4 kills and was awarded a DSC. His unit then converted to Sopwith Triplanes were he claimed a further 24 victories. He then converted to fly Camels were he brought his score up to 38. He recieved a DSO and Bar to his DSC in August and was followed by a Bar to his DSO in September.
> In March 1918 he joined 3(N) Squadron as a flight commander were he shot down a further 9 aircraft. On 27 May 1918, while trying to intercept a Gotha bomber at night he was caught up in a search light beam where he was shot though both thighs. Little crash landed near Noeux, but by the time his plane was found he had bled to death. No one knows whether the bullet came from the Gotha or from ground fire, which would be an unfortunate way for this great flyer to go, being killed by friendly fire.



At one point Little's kill pace surpassed many WWI leading aces, had he lived he might of got well over 100 kills!


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 22, 2005)

LITTLE'S KILLS 

Date Time Unit Aircraft Opponent Location 
1 23 Nov 1916 0950 8N Sopwith Pup (N5182) C (DESF) NE of La Bassée 
2 04 Dec 1916 1130 8N Sopwith Pup (N5182) Halberstadt D.II (OOC) NE of Bapaume 
3 20 Dec 1916 1115 8N Sopwith Pup (N5182) C (OOC) Fontaine 
4 07 Jan 1917 1100 8N Sopwith Pup (N5194) Albatros D.II (OOC) Grevillers 
5 07 Apr 1917 1930 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5469) Albatros D.III (DES) SE of Lens 
6 09 Apr 1917 1200 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5469) Halberstadt D.II (OOC) Noyelles-Lens 
7 21 Apr 1917 1855 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5469) Albatros D.III (DES) NE of Oppy 
8 24 Apr 1917 1230 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5469) Aviatik C (CAP) Auchel 
9 28 Apr 1917 1225 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) C (DES) Oppy 
10 29 Apr 1917 1915 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) Albatros D.III (DES) Douai 
11 30 Apr 1917 0710 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) Albatros D.III (OOC) E of Arras 
12 30 Apr 1917 0725 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) Albatros D.III (OOC) E of Arras 
13 02 May 1917 1930 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) Albatros D.III (OOC) Vitry 
14 09 May 1917 1010 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) LVG C (OOC) SE of Lens 
15 09 May 1917 1015 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) Albatros D.III (OOC) SE of Lens 
16 10 May 1917 ? 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) Albatros D.III (OOC) Lens 
17 18 May 1917 1100 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) DFW C (DES) NE of Lens 
18 18 May 1917 1115 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) Albatros D.III (DES) NE of Lens 
19 23 May 1917 1545 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) Albatros D.III (OOC) W of Douai 
20 25 May 1917 0810 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) Albatros D.III (OOC) Quiery la Motte 
21 16 Jun 1917 0930 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) C (DES) Wingles 
22 21 Jun 1917 1025 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) Albatros D.V (DES) E of Henin-Lietard 
23 26 Jun 1917 1835 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) C (DESF) E of Acheville 
24 29 Jun 1917 0655 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) Albatros D.V (OOC) E of Lens 
25 03 Jul 1917 1100 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) Albatros D.V (OOC) Lens 
26 03 Jul 1917 1130 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) Albatros D.V (OOC) Lens-La Bassée 
27 06 Jul 1917 1115 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) C (DES) N of Izel 
28 10 Jul 1917 1445 8N Sopwith Triplane (N5493) Albatros D.V (OOC) Fampoux 
29 12 Jul 1917 1300 8N Sopwith Camel (N6378) Albatros D.V (OOC) Vitry-Drocourt-Quéant 
30 13 Jul 1917 1015 8N Sopwith Camel (N6378) C (OOC) Lens 
31 13 Jul 1917 1130 8N Sopwith Camel (N6378) Albatros D.V (CAP) Croiselles 
32 15 Jul 1917 2045 8N Sopwith Camel (N6378) Albatros D.V (OOC) Lens 
33 16 Jul 1917 0830 8N Sopwith Camel (N6378) C (OOC) Gavrelle 
34 20 Jul 1917 1840 8N Sopwith Camel (N6378) DFW C.V (DES) Lens 
35 21 Jul 1917 1930 8N Sopwith Camel (N6378) Albatros D.V (OOC) E of Oppy 
36 22 Jul 1917 0620 8N Sopwith Camel (N6378) C (OOC) Rouvroy 
37 22 Jul 1917 1945 8N Sopwith Camel (N6378) Albatros D.V (OOC) Lens 
38 27 Jul 1917 1600 8N Sopwith Camel (B3877) C (DES) Loos 
39 01 Apr 1918 1400 203 Sopwith Camel (B7198) Fokker DR.I (DES) E of Oppy 
40 06 Apr 1918 1230 203 Sopwith Camel (B7231) DFW C.V (DESF) NE of Lens 
41 07 Apr 1918 1300 203 Sopwith Camel (B7231) Fokker DR.I (DES) SE of Violanes 
42 09 Apr 1918 1610 203 Sopwith Camel (B7231) Albatros C (DESF) Givenchy 
43 11 Apr 1918 1430 203 Sopwith Camel (B7231) Albatros D.V (DES) Bac St. Maur 
44 21 Apr 1918 1500 203 Sopwith Camel (B6319) Pfalz D.III (OOC) W of Bailleul 
45 18 May 1918 0750 203 Sopwith Camel (B7220) Pfalz D.III (OOC) Neuf Berquin 
46 22 May 1918 1140 203 Sopwith Camel (D3416) Albatros C (DES) Mory-St. Leger 
47 22 May 1918 1145 203 Sopwith Camel (D3416) DFW C (DES) Morchies


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## Wildcat (Apr 22, 2005)

Thanks for the list FB  It's a shame he didn't live to see the end of the war. Little was not only the highest scoring Aussie ace of WWI but is the top scoring Australian ace period.


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 22, 2005)

Wildcat said:


> Thanks for the list FB  It's a shame he didn't live to see the end of the war. Little was not only the highest scoring Aussie ace of WWI but is the top scoring Australian ace period.



You betcha - when I did the Collishaw post I was also thinking about Little as well!


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## HealzDevo (May 24, 2005)

I think the Red Baron definitely. There was Manfred and what was the other Richtoffen?


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## pbfoot (May 24, 2005)

William barker is my choice particularly his last flight in ww1 in which he tangled with up to 60 enemy ac and shot down 4 to give him a total of 50 
also please note bishop shot down about the same amount of ac as Rickenbacker in much less time I do think the American media made Rickenbacker a better pilot then he was


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## FLYBOYJ (May 24, 2005)

pbfoot said:


> I do think the American media made Rickenbacker a better pilot then he was



But what do you expect? He was the top US recognized ace, a former race car driver and a celebrity before the war. Lufbury, Luke, Springs, and especially David Putnam were probably way better pilots, and Putnam was said to have over 30 kills!


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## Nonskimmer (May 24, 2005)

HealzDevo said:


> I think the Red Baron definitely. There was Manfred and what was the other Richtoffen?


Lothar von Richthofen. He scored 40 victories; exactly half as many as Manfred. He survived the war, but was killed in a civilian plane crash in 1922.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 27, 2005)

Wildcat said:


> Robert Little was Australia's leading ace of WWI. When war broke out he couldn't wait to join up so he sailed over to Britain (because there was a long waiting list for flying school at Point Cook). Paid 100 pound for his flying certificate which he gained on Oct 27, 1915. Little immediately enlisted in the RNAS where he was sent to Dunkirk flying Sopwith 1 and a half strutters flying several bombing missions.
> On 26 Oct 1916 he was posted to 8 Naval Sqaudron flying Sopwith Pups where he claimed his first kills over the Western front. By March he had claimed 4 kills and was awarded a DSC. His unit then converted to Sopwith Triplanes were he claimed a further 24 victories. He then converted to fly Camels were he brought his score up to 38. He recieved a DSO and Bar to his DSC in August and was followed by a Bar to his DSO in September.
> In March 1918 he joined 3(N) Squadron as a flight commander were he shot down a further 9 aircraft. On 27 May 1918, while trying to intercept a Gotha bomber at night he was caught up in a search light beam where he was shot though both thighs. Little crash landed near Noeux, but by the time his plane was found he had bled to death. No one knows whether the bullet came from the Gotha or from ground fire, which would be an unfortunate way for this great flyer to go, being killed by friendly fire.



BOB LITTLE WAS KILLED TODAY, 1918


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## GT (Jun 24, 2005)

Update.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 3, 2005)

I really like the pictures of the WW1 pilots they are very nobel almost royalty it seems like.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 4, 2005)

They are royalty in my mind


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 4, 2005)

Just about. What I think is wiered about it though is the fact that WW1 aviation was still like the chivelrous days of the Nights on Horse Back. It really is a glorious time.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 4, 2005)

When I was kid this WW1 ace who lived in my community used to come to my elementary school, his name was George Vaughn. Listening to him speak really got my interest in aviation. He was a 13 kill ace!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 4, 2005)

13 kills in WW1 was quite a showing. Must have been great to talk to one of them.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 4, 2005)

It was - I remember all of my classmates asking him if he fought the Red Baron. I believe he participated in the same airbattle that killed the Red Baron.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 4, 2005)

That is a very intresting and controversial battle. I truely believe it was the Canadian gunners on the ground that got him. Either way I saw some pictures of his funural and there were even allied pilots attending it. Shows what kind of respect he recieved.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 4, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> That is a very intresting and controversial battle. I truely believe it was the Canadian gunners on the ground that got him. Either way I saw some pictures of his funural and there were even allied pilots attending it. Shows what kind of respect he recieved.



Oh, I agree all the way! I don't remeber the name of the author, but one of the first books written about the Red Baron actually being killed by groundfire was dimissed as rubbish and the author heavily ridiculed. He described the gunshot wound, the trajectory, the fact that ground forces shat at the Red Baron, the delay in him crashing, all adding up to the truth.

Now if those darned Aussies didn't strip his aiplane apart...........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 6, 2005)

True I think it is one of the great Aviation mysteries that will never be confirmed but I am with the Canadians! Go Canada!


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 6, 2005)

I thought he was shot by Captain Flashheart in Blackadder Goes Forth?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 6, 2005)

Never seen the series.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 6, 2005)

Sorry Adler, gotta go with the Aussies even though they destroyed the airplane!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 6, 2005)

No its okay I think it is a toss up since it will never be proven who actually got him. I just honestly think it was the canadian gunners on the ground.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 6, 2005)

Well I think its clear to say it wasn't Roy Brown or Snoopy!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 7, 2005)

*Snoopy vs The Red Baron *
Achtung, jetz wir ssingen ssusammen die Geschichte over den schweinkopfigen Hund und dem lieben Red Baron ... 

After the turn of the century 
In the clear blue skies over Germany 
Came a roar and a thunder man had never heard 
Like the screaming sound of a big war bird 
Up in the sky, a man in a plane 
Baron von Richthofen was his name 
Eighty men tried, and eighty men died 
Now they're buried together in the countryside 

Ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty or more 
The Bloody Red Baron was running up the score 
Eighty men died trying to end that spree 
Of the Bloody Red Baron of Germany

In the nick of time, a hero arose 
A funny-looking dog with a big black nose 
He flew into the sky to seek revenge 
But the Baron shot him down; "Curses, foiled again!" 

Ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty or more 
The Bloody Red Baron was running up the score 
Eighty men died trying to end that spree 
Of the Bloody Red Baron of Germany

Now Snoopy swore he'd get that man 
So he asked the Great Pumpkin for a new battle plan 
He challenged the German to a real dogfight 
While the Baron was laughing, he got him in his sight 

The Bloody Red Baron was in a fix 
He tried everything but he'd run out of tricks 
Snoopy fired once and he fired twice 
And the Bloody Red Baron went spinning out of sight 

Ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty or more 
The Bloody Red Baron was running up the score 
Eighty men died trying to end that spree 
Of the Bloody Red Baron of Germany


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 7, 2005)

LOVE THE SONG!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 7, 2005)

Hell Yeah I have it on originall Vynel.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 7, 2005)

Hold on to that one - 

I want to put together a CD of corney flying songs - that one is on the top of the list!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 7, 2005)

Oh I will never get rid of it.


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## jrk (Jul 26, 2005)

roy brown was tailing manfred after manfred latched onto the tail of a young naive canadian pilot,i did have this mans name somewhere i,ll look it up i think he may have been a corporal.anyhow manfred was concentrating so intensely roy caught him off guard forcing him lower.this is when the aussie gunners started to fire at the red triplane.while manfred was fired upon the young pilot escaped and flew off.there was a factual programme on british t.v about who actually caused the death of the red baron and even they couldnt come up with any conclussive answers.odds on it was the australian gunners.


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 26, 2005)

The young, naive Canadian pilot was Captain Wilfrid (often misspelled as "Wilfred") "Wop" May. He was on his first combat flight. He and Roy Brown were in fact old Edmonton school chums. Wop May ended the war with 13 credited kills and would become a famous bush pilot.
 
BTW, take the narrative in the link with a grain of salt. It's a bit of a propaganda sheet, so not all of the "facts" may be quite accurate.

http://www.bestcdn.com/primary/pride/may.htm


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 28, 2005)

I dont think the mistery of the Red Baron will ever be proved and confirmed.


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## jrk (Aug 6, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> The young, naive Canadian pilot was Captain Wilfrid (often misspelled as "Wilfred") "Wop" May. He was on his first combat flight. He and Roy Brown were in fact old Edmonton school chums. Wop May ended the war with 13 credited kills and would become a famous bush pilot.
> 
> BTW, take the narrative in the link with a grain of salt. It's a bit of a propaganda sheet, so not all of the "facts" may be quite accurate.
> 
> http://www.bestcdn.com/primary/pride/may.htm





thanks for the useful info nonskimmer i enjoyed reading that.and i did laugh at the propoganda line.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 7, 2005)

Yeah it was interesting.


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## jrk (Aug 7, 2005)

edward "mick" mannock the top scoring british pilot with 73 confirmed kills.an irishman flying in the rfc.alas the unfortunate soul killed close towards the wars close.and yet again an se5a pilot


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 8, 2005)

That seemed to be the fate of all the great ones. They die right before the end.


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## jrk (Aug 8, 2005)

manfred was so close.yet again another top bloke got so close towards the end yet the finish line seemed so far away.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 10, 2005)

I think it is a great loss all of them. I wonder if Richthoffen would have flown in WW2 also?


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## vanir (Aug 12, 2005)

Max Immelman, when he wasn't busy shooting his own propeller off with primitive synchronisation gear, developed many fighter combat techniques that were to become the standard in dogfighting, and was responsible for the term "Blue Max" of that particular medal.
He's got my vote.






Of course Richtofen gets two votes for sheer charisma, reputation and deadliness.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 12, 2005)

Thats a good vote. I still go with Richthoffen out of historical reasons but Immelman is very worthy of the title also.


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## Nonskimmer (Aug 12, 2005)

I've gotta go with Billy Bishop, with 72 confirmed (yes, confirmed) kills. Why? Well because he was damn good, that's why.

...and of course because he was Canadian.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 12, 2005)

Not a bad choice either though.


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## jrk (Aug 15, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I think it is a great loss all of them. I wonder if Richthoffen would have flown in WW2 also?



most probably both manfred and lothar would have flown in the second world war.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 17, 2005)

jrk said:


> DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
> 
> 
> > I think it is a great loss all of them. I wonder if Richthoffen would have flown in WW2 also?
> ...



Possibly - I think it would of depended if they embraced the Nazi party or were offered a position in the Luftwafle.

It seems a few top aces didn't fair well in WW2 - Wolfram Von Ritchtofen died shortly after the war. Ernst Udet - well, he didn't do too good as well....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 30, 2005)

Udet commited suicide didn't he.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 30, 2005)

yup - blew his brains out!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 30, 2005)

That is what I thought.


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## KraziKanuK (Aug 30, 2005)

Don't forget the biggest (in more ways than one) idiot, Herr Meyer.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 1, 2005)

Yes and the German people were calling Herr Meyer every day and night from 1942 onward.


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## The Nerd (Oct 15, 2005)

I would say that the Red Baron was the better the the WWI aces.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 15, 2005)

I agree but there were others that were just as good also though.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 13, 2006)

a-17 said:


> the greatest ace of world war one1 was the red baron.known for shooting down 80 allied aircraft,red baron was among the most great aces ever.it was known for its name for the red dv1111 he flew.



He never flew anything called a dv1111. 

The first plane that he flew was an *Albatros D.II* and with that he recieved his first kill when he shot down the British ace Lanoe Hawker. The second plane that he flew was the *Albatros D.III*, next he flew the *Albatros D.V*. After that in 1917 he flew the *Halberstadt D.II*, and then the and by Sept 1917 he had switched the famose *Fokker Dr.I triplane*.

By the way do you know what his real name is anyhow?


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## Twitch (Sep 13, 2006)

Charles Nungesser of France. Not so much for his 43 confirmed kills but for his audaciousness and insane agressiveness in the air.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 13, 2006)

Maybe we allies made Goring too silly. Twenty-two kills sounds pretty good.


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## bomber (Sep 14, 2006)

As I'm from Nottingham is has to be Albert Ball... because he led others followed...

Albert Ball, VC.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 14, 2006)

While I agree that there were plenty of pilots that were just as good flying, tactically and what not as Von Richthofen, the Red Baron simply is the greatest of all time.

He shot down the most aircraft to be the first Ace of Aces. He was tactically a great pilot. He flew planes that traded speed for maneuverability and lives on in imortality.

By imortality I mean he is respected by his enemies and he lives on in every culture. You look at any history book, his name is is mentioned. You look at the movies, look at the music, look at books. He is found everywhere. Eveyone knows the story of the Reb Baron.

_After the turn of the century
In the clear blue skies over Germany
Came a roar and a thunder men had never heard
Like the scream and the sound of a big war bird

Up in the sky, a man in a plane
Baron von Richthofen was his name
Eighty men tried, and eighty men died
Now they're buried together on the countryside

Ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty or more
The Bloody Red Baron was rollin' up the score
Eighty men died tryin' to end that spree
of the Bloody Red Baron of Germany

In the nick of time, a hero arose
A funny-looking dog with a big black nose
He flew into the sky to seek revenge
But the Baron shot him down - "Curses, foiled again!"

Ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty or more
The Bloody Red Baron was rollin' up the score
Eighty men died tryin' to end that spree
of the Bloody Red Baron of Germany

Now, Snoopy had sworn that he'd get that man
So he asked the Great Pumpkin for a new battle plan
He challenged the German to a real dogfight
While the Baron was laughing, he got him in his sight

That Bloody Red Baron was in a fix
He'd tried everything, but he'd run out of tricks
Snoopy fired once, and he fired twice
And that Bloody Red Baron went spinning out of sight

Ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty or more
The Bloody Red Baron was rollin' up the score
Eighty men died tryin' to end that spree
of the Bloody Red Baron of Germany

Ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty or more
The Bloody Red Baron was rollin' up the score
Eighty men died tryin' to end that spree
of the Bloody Red Baron of Germany_


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 14, 2006)

Very Cool!!!


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## bomber (Sep 14, 2006)

The quality of the oponents B von R shot down was often questioned by fellow German pilots..

That is to say in a time of chivalry... he played outside the rules, or rather wrote new ones.

regards

Simon


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 14, 2006)

And they had better competition?

Sorry but know one can really say that. Richthofen was just better than them. There were pilots out there just as good, but no one will ever supersede the Red Baron or his legacy.


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## Hunter368 (Sep 14, 2006)

bomber said:


> The quality of the oponents B von R shot down was often questioned by fellow German pilots..
> 
> That is to say in a time of chivalry... he played outside the rules, or rather wrote new ones.
> 
> ...



Here is a list of his kills, how can anyone question the quality of his kills? He got his first in 1916, not 1914 when planes and pilots were new to air combat. Alot of his kills were fighters, quality fighter planes also. As per the qualtiy of the pilots all you can assume were that they are average Allied pilots, its not like as he can pick out the green pilots in a dogfight and go only after them. What the hell!!!


No. Date Type of Aircraft Location 
1 Sept. 17, 1916 FE 2b near Cambrai 
2 Sept. 23, 1916 Martinsyde G 100 Somme River 
3 Sept. 30, 1916 FE 2b Fremicourt 
4 Oct. 7, 1916 BE 12 Equancourt 
5 Oct. 10, 1916 BE 12 Ypres 
6 Oct. 16, 1916 BE 12 near Ypres 
7 Nov. 3, 1916 FE 2b Loupart Wood 
8 Nov. 9, 1916 Be 2c Beugny 
9 Nov. 20, 1916 BE 12 Geudecourt 
10 Nov. 20, 1916  FE 2b Geudecourt 
11 Nov. 23, 1916 DH 2 Bapaume 
12 Dec. 11, 1916 DH 2 Mercatel 
13 Dec. 20, 1916 DH 2 Moncy-le-Preux 
14 Dec. 20, 1916 FE 2b Moreuil 
15 Dec. 27, 1916 FE 2b Ficheux 
16 Jan. 4, 1917 Sopwith Pup Metz-en-Coutre 
17 Jan. 23, 1917 FE 8 Lens 
18 Jan. 24, 1917 FE 2b Vitry 
19 Feb. 1, 1917 BE 2e Thelus 
20 Feb. 14, 1917 BE 2d Loos 
21 Feb. 14, 1917 BE 2d Mazingarbe 
22 Mar. 4, 1917 Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter Acheville 
23 Mar. 4, 1917 BE 2d Loos 
24 Mar. 3, 1917 BE 2c Souchez 
25 Mar. 9, 1917 DH 2 Bailleul 
26 Mar. 11, 1917 BE 2d Vimy 
27 Mar. 17, 1917 FE 2b Oppy 
28 Mar. 17, 1917 BE 2c Vimy 
29 Mar. 21, 1917 BE 2c La Neuville 
30 Mar. 24, 1917 Spad VII Givenchy 
31 Mar. 25, 1917 Nieuport 17 Tilloy 
32 April 2, 1917 BE 2d Farbus 
33 April 2, 1917 Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter Givenchy 
34 April 3, 1917 FE 2d Lens 
35 April 5, 1917 Bristol Fighter F 2a Lembras 
36 April 5, 1917 Bristol Fighter F 2a Quincy 
37 April 7, 1917 Nieuport 17 Mercatel 
38 April 8, 1917 Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter Farbus 
39 April 8, 1917 BE 2e Vimy 
40 April 11, 1917 BE 2c Willerval 
41 April 13, 1917 RE 8 Vitry 
42 April 13, 1917 FE 2b Monchy 
43 April 13, 1917 FE 2b Henin 
44 April 14, 1917 Nieuport 17 Bois Bernard 
45 April 16, 1917 BE 2c Bailleul 
46 April 22, 1917 FE 2b Lagnicourt 
47 April 23, 1917 BE 2e Mericourt 
48 April 28, 1917 BE 2e Pelves 
49 April 29, 1917 Spad VII Lecluse 
50 April 29, 1917 FE 2b Inchy 
51 April 29, 1917 BE 2d Roeux 
52 April 29, 1917 Nieuport 17 Billy-Montigny 
53 June 18, 1917 RE 8 Strugwe 
54 June 23, 1917 Spad VII Ypres 
55 June 26, 1917 RE 8 Keilbergmelen 
56 June 25, 1917 RE 8 Le Bizet 
57 July 2, 1917 RE 8 Deulemont 
58 Aug. 16, 1917 Nieuport 17 Houthulster Wald 
59 Aug. 26, 1917 Spad VII Poelcapelle 
60 Sept. 2, 1917 RE 8 Zonebeke 
61 Sept. 3, 1917 Sopwith Pup Bousbecque 
62 Nov. 23, 1917 DH 5 Bourlon Wood 
63 Nov. 30, 1917 SE 5a Moevres 
64 Mar. 12, 1918 Bristol Fighter F 2b Nauroy 
65 Mar. 13, 1918 Sopwith Camel Gonnelieu 
66 Mar. 18, 1918 Sopwith Camel Andigny 
67 Mar. 24, 1918 SE 5a Combles 
68 Mar. 25, 1918 Sopwith Camel Contalmaison 
69 Mar. 26, 1918 Sopwith Camel Contalmaison 
70 Mar. 26, 1918 RE 8 Albert 
71 Mar. 27, 1918 Sopwith Camel Aveluy 
72 Mar. 27, 1918 Bristol Fighter F 2b Foucacourt 
73 Mar. 27, 1918 Bristol Fighter F 2b Chuignolles 
74 Mar. 28, 1918 Armstrong Whitworth FK 8 Mericourt 
75 April 2, 1918 FE 8 Moreuil 
76 April 6, 1918 Sopwith Camel Villers-Bretonneux 
77 April 7, 1918 SE 5a Hangard 
78 April 7, 1918 Spad VII Villers-Bretonneux 
79 April 20, 1918 Sopwith Camel Bois-de-Hamel 
80 April 20, 1918 Sopwith Camel Villers-Bretonneu 

Further more a definitive study was conducted by British historian Norman Franks with two colleagues, resulting in publication of Under the Guns of the Red Baron in 1998. Their research confirmed the veracity of at least 73 of von Richtofen's claims, with identities of the Allied airmen whom von Richthofen had fought. There were also unconfirmed victories that could put his actual total as high as 84. So I say again ......what the hell!!!


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## timshatz (Sep 14, 2006)

I have that book from Franks. A very good book. Has pictures of each of the guys he shot down (some of poor quality due to the age of the pics). Describes each downing. Very impressive book.

As an Ace, I agree with the general consensus that the Von Richtoffen was the best. Not as a dogfighter (probably give that to Voss, Bishop or Ball), but dogfighting is a dangerous way to get a kill. It's a real mess in the middle of a furball and a differnent type of killing than what the Red Baron used. He was a hunter, a stalker. The furball was dangerous and he recognized it as such. His method was the stalk and quick strike, he stayed above the dogfight whenever possible. 

He also had the benefit of being in the right place at the right time. The Abatross Fighter was just coming into service when he came on the scene as a single seat pilot. That gave him technical superiority to his opponents. Huge in the Air War, no matter what war you talk about. Also, Oswald Boelke (sp?) had already established the Boelke Dicta (which is still valid today) as the rules on how to fight. And Boelke was an excellent leader.

Von Richtoffen had an excellent machine, excellent teacher and excellent tactics. Given all that, he rose above those around him who had the same situation. Wolf, Almenroeder, even his brother, were all competent killers in the air. But his skill at the stalk and kill, his ability to keep track of everything going on around him, superior shooting skills and iron will/discipline lead him to be the greatest of that generation. 

As an Ace, he was it. Others were better shots (not many, but some) such as Fonck, some were better leaders, Boelke or Mannock. But he was the complete package as an Ace.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 14, 2006)

As an avid big game hunter he basically applied the same rules of hunting big game to hunting aircraft and killing them. He was the best.


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## bomber (Sep 14, 2006)

Don't get me wrong I'm not disrespecting the man it's just that we, and this thread has romantised this era of aviation combat..

We think about it as 'Knights of the sky' dueling in combat.... Acts of chivalry, pilots pairing off and fighting across the sky... when they run out of ammo they wave fairwell and head back for base, a glass of claret and a singsong around the old piano.

Now this did happen but let's be sure we're attributing the right characteristics to the correct pilots... because B Von R was a colded blooded killer who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes... A pilot that required that his tail be kept clean of the enemy by his fellow pilots... He was not a dualist, he was not chivalric.

He was an entirely new bread of pilot, unseen before, who brought a more proffesional aproach to aviation combat which gave results.

We all value the judgement of our piers and although there no doubt was an element of jealousy.. his piers did not think of him that favourably in life,,, in death maybe.

I'm not out to cause a fight, it's just that at a time when boys went up in planes who's life expectancy was measured in minutes.... unlike the romatised view we have of 'giving the other guy a fair chance'... that was not his style.

And as an interesting footnote, historians and strategists have attributed the subsequent 'hero worship' of B von R by luftwaffe pilots, as the root cause of their failure to win the BoB in WWII...

Regards

Simon

"I treat my plane like my woman. I get in her 3 times a day and take her to heavan and back.... wahhhha !"
Captain Flashheart


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## timshatz (Sep 14, 2006)

Along the lines of Bomber's post, Von Richtoffen was not a nice guy. Most pilots who knew and flew with him said he was aloof/distant, a disciplinarian and not interested in teaching his pilots. Very introverted person, especially when compared with his brother Lothar. With him, You either shot down enemy aircraft or you were gone. He tossed 2 or 3 pilots the day he was shot down. He led by example, not by instruction and didn't seem to care if his pilots liked him or not. 

From all I've read, he was a dyed in wool killer who shot to kill and was not above shooting downed flyers on the ground. He played to win, was not in it for Chivalry or anything of that nature. Remorseless, focused, lethal, calculating, all these words come to mind when Von Richtoffen is considered. It is not a condemnation of the man but simply the realization of the process of elimination to develop the best traits for air fighting. Doubtless, most other pilots who succeeded and survived had these personality characteristics as well. 

The romantic notions were most probably created by the press and the propagandist. Those who flew over the lines (and survived for any length of time) in WW1 doubtfully had any illusions about what they were doing and how to win.


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## Hunter368 (Sep 14, 2006)

bomber said:


> Don't get me wrong I'm not disrespecting the man it's just that we, and this thread has romantised this era of aviation combat..
> 
> We think about it as 'Knights of the sky' dueling in combat.... Acts of chivalry, pilots pairing off and fighting across the sky... when they run out of ammo they wave fairwell and head back for base, a glass of claret and a singsong around the old piano.
> 
> ...



Bomber I have a few questions/comments for you:

1) You said the following "because B Von R was a cold blooded killer who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes".

Cold blooded killer???? He was at war doing his duty like every pilot on either side it was expected of him to shoot down enemy planes. How does that make him a "cold blooded killer"?

Who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes???? I posted for you his list of kills, did you see it???? I see alot of fighters on that list don't you?
You comment of him shooting down scout planes like that is a bad thing. Scout planes are a highly valuable target on the battle field. Whats wrong with him shooting down prime targets?

2) You said following "We think about it as 'Knights of the sky' dueling in combat.... Acts of chivalry, pilots pairing off and fighting across the sky... when they run out of ammo they wave fairwell and head back for base, a glass of claret and a singsong around the old piano."

You might think that way but I know not all of us here think the same way as you do. Air combat is anything but chivalry, at times like other areas of combat you might see the odd glimpse of chivalry but that not the rule. Air combat is combat, kill or be killed simple as that.

3) You said "A pilot that required that his tail be kept clean of the enemy by his fellow pilots... He was not a dualist, he was not chivalric."

Keep his tail clean....seems like a smart idea to me if you want to stay alive!! He was not a dualist or chivalric??? Good idea !!! Those traits will get you killed.

4) You said "He was an entirely new bread of pilot, unseen before, who brought a more professional approach to aviation combat which gave results."

Thats good thats what made him so damn good. Better than the rest of them.


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## bomber (Sep 14, 2006)

Sorry Hunter, you're clearly not objective in this...

I'm not after a fight.. and I've said so... but the romatasised view of the man is not the reality.



> They are royalty in my mind





> Just about. What I think is wiered about it though is the fact that WW1 aviation was still like the chivelrous days of the Nights on Horse Back. It really is a glorious time.



This is the common popular belief about the period, and for some pilots this was true...

But I find it disrespectfull to those that did fight and die this way to attribute these characteristic to someone who didn't....

Try looking at what I've said,,


Simon


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## Hunter368 (Sep 14, 2006)

bomber said:


> Sorry Hunter, you're clearly not objective in this...
> 
> I'm not after a fight.. and I've said so... but the romatasised view of the man is not the reality.
> 
> ...



Simon,

"Try looking at what I've said?????" Not sure if you are trying to be disrespectful by that comment but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not, even if it sounds like it, b/c you are a newbie to this site.

Lets talk about what I have said now. At no point have I ever romanticized air combat in this thread. Not sure who you actually quoted there and I don't care, it was not me.

I'm not being objective here????? Please quote where I am not being objective in your mind. After you have been here for a while you will know that I only talk facts, "A wise man listens while a fool talks", is the saying. Please I invite you to quote me where I am not being objective.

Where or how is saying "what makes a good pilot" not being objective. I have reread my post to you and see nothing but facts and truths in my post. Please point anything out from my post that is not truthful, fact or objective.


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## bomber (Sep 14, 2006)

because I never said it made him a bad pilot... 

Read Timshatz's post.. go pick a fight with him if you can't understand my English.

Better still read this thread from beginning to end, get a fresh feel for it rather than dismissing the quotes I made..

All because I'm new here, don't confuse this 41 year old as being soft in the head, or someone who's word you can twist for a fight.

Simon


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## Erich (Sep 14, 2006)

back on topic guys .........

the Baron coming from an aristocractic famile had too many expectations laid upon his table that he could not keep, one reason to be a lone wolf and innovator in the skies, his autonomousness caused him many victories as well as his own death ........

I can think of many aces but one strikes me with his agressive go get em nature, 40 victory and Pour le Merit winner Hauptmann Karl Menckhoff, flying in Jasta 3 and finishing in Jasta 72 shot down behind enemy lines on the 23rd of August 1918 escaped a week later and walked to Switzerland where he set up his own business until his death in 1948.

machs gut !


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## timshatz (Sep 14, 2006)

Erich said:


> back on topic guys .........
> 
> I can think of many aces but one strikes me with his agressive go get em nature, 40 victory and Pour le Merit winner Hauptmann Karl Menckhoff, flying in Jasta 3 and finishing in Jasta 72 shot down behind enemy lines on the 23rd of August 1918 escaped a week later and walked to Switzerland where he set up his own business until his death in 1948.
> 
> machs gut !



Now that is a guy you'd like to have a beer with. Does his bit for King and Country and after the math catches up with him, he moves on. 

To paraphrase the line from "Mephis Belle", he did his bit for the Fatherland and after that, he did his bit for himself.

That's the kind of guy you can shoot down but not beat.

Died kinda young. Seems like he was somewhere around 50-55.


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## timshatz (Sep 14, 2006)

Whoops, my bad. Menckhoff was 65 when he died. Was 34-35 when he was shot down and captured.


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 14, 2006)




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## Erich (Sep 14, 2006)

so very true, would of liked to have conversed with him and here his stories of a time so long ago........

ok WW 1 a/c experten I posted this image some years ago, I luv the thing.
An Albatross D-Va with from left to right the following: Lt. D.R. Herman Vallendor with 5 kills, Lt. Kempf in the middle and on the left side; Lt. Gerhart Bassenge with 7 kills. photo is 1918 and no clue if the markings are black on white or ??, anyone have an ID to the unit ?

E ~


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## Hunter368 (Sep 14, 2006)

bomber said:


> because I never said it made him a bad pilot...
> 
> Read Timshatz's post.. go pick a fight with him if you can't understand my English.
> 
> ...



I never said you said he was a bad pilot, read my post closely. You said I was not being objective b/c I pointed what I call characteristics that make a good pilot. I never said you called him a bad pilot, if you think I did post that quote from me. Here is the post that you called "not objective".

Bomber I have a few questions/comments for you:

1) You said the following "because B Von R was a cold blooded killer who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes".

Cold blooded killer???? He was at war doing his duty like every pilot on either side it was expected of him to shoot down enemy planes. How does that make him a "cold blooded killer"?

Who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes???? I posted for you his list of kills, did you see it???? I see alot of fighters on that list don't you?
You comment of him shooting down scout planes like that is a bad thing. Scout planes are a highly valuable target on the battle field. Whats wrong with him shooting down prime targets?

2) You said following "We think about it as 'Knights of the sky' dueling in combat.... Acts of chivalry, pilots pairing off and fighting across the sky... when they run out of ammo they wave fairwell and head back for base, a glass of claret and a singsong around the old piano."

You might think that way but I know not all of us here think the same way as you do. Air combat is anything but chivalry, at times like other areas of combat you might see the odd glimpse of chivalry but that not the rule. Air combat is combat, kill or be killed simple as that.

3) You said "A pilot that required that his tail be kept clean of the enemy by his fellow pilots... He was not a dualist, he was not chivalric."

Keep his tail clean....seems like a smart idea to me if you want to stay alive!! He was not a dualist or chivalric??? Good idea !!! Those traits will get you killed.

4) You said "He was an entirely new bread of pilot, unseen before, who brought a more professional approach to aviation combat which gave results."

Thats good thats what made him so damn good. Better than the rest of them.



Simon where I am being not objective in that post or rude to you. You claim you are not looking for a fight here but you are the only one getting excited here. All I am doing is asking you questions about your post. Believe me if you can't handle or don't like to be questioned on things you say you will not likely last long here. There is people here that know a heck alot more about WW1 or WW2 than either you or I will ever likely know. Get used to being questioned or called on your posts.


Then you said "Don't get me wrong I'm not disrespecting the man ", really??? Lets see what you have said now about him:

-because B Von R was a cold blooded killer who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes

-A pilot that required that his tail be kept clean of the enemy by his fellow pilots... He was not a dualist, he was not chivalric

Now all your comments about him were not 100% negative but those are pretty damning words right there.

I am trying to pick a fight with you??? No But I am asking you to explain yourself and your posts. If I wanted Timshatz to explain himself I would of asked him, I'm not asking him I am asking you.

You seem to be the one getting excited and maybe trying to start a fight, here is what you have said to me:

-you're clearly not objective in this...

-Try looking at what I've said

-if you can't understand my English

-Better still read this thread from beginning to end, get a fresh feel for it rather than dismissing the quotes I made..

-All because I'm new here, don't confuse this 41 year old as being soft in the head, or someone who's word you can twist for a fight.


MMM you seem to be the one using the negative or raising the tone of your posts here not me. Believe me if you want to argue about this I can, thus far I have been polite.

All I have been doing is asking you to explain yourself / your posts. So far you have avoided my clear questions about your post. Mmmmm why is that? You are the one dismissing my questions to you. Mmmmm why is that?

Side note I have read this whole thread, you posted quotes made from other people and posted those quotes when talking to me. This is what you said to me when posting those quotes:

"I'm not after a fight.. and I've said so... but the romanticized view of the man is not the reality."

This is what I said about that quote "At no point have I ever romanticized air combat in this thread."

What the heck does that quote have to do with me? I agreed with you that combat is not a romantic thing.

Simon even though you claim not to be picking a fight it seems like you purposely are heading in that direction. Answer my questions about your post in a factual way and everything will be fine. I don't see a problem here unless you make one, I am just asking you questions about your post. That is going to happen to you here alot get used to it.


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## davparlr (Sep 14, 2006)

The Baron! Because of his killing skills (note, I didn't say flying) and the impact he had on friends and enemy alike, and on history. But lets see, there seems to be three theories now on who killed him, the Canadian pilot Brown, Australian anti-aircraft fire, and an American dog. Since I am a typical American, I think the dog did it.


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## Hunter368 (Sep 15, 2006)

davparlr said:


> The Baron! Because of his killing skills (note, I didn't say flying) and the impact he had on friends and enemy alike, and on history. But lets see, there seems to be three theories now on who killed him, the Canadian pilot Brown, Australian anti-aircraft fire, and an American dog. Since I am a typical American, I think the dog did it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 15, 2006)

I have to agree with Hunter here. Everything you described bomber is what made him the better pilot. 

I have been in forms of aerial combat (yes it is a helicoper which yes is not the same as a fighter pilot/I did 14 months in Iraq and have 656 combat hours), fighting this chivalres way that you think is better, gets you killed. If I gave the benifit of the doubt to my enemies, I would not be typing this message.

I am being objective and the "new" style that the Baron flew made him the better pilot.

He got the job done, he shot the enemy down more than they got thim.

That is the job of the fighter pilot, to kill or be killed. 

He did just that and did it better than anyone.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 15, 2006)

davparlr said:


> The Baron! Because of his killing skills (note, I didn't say flying) and the impact he had on friends and enemy alike, and on history. But lets see, there seems to be three theories now on who killed him, the Canadian pilot Brown, Australian anti-aircraft fire, and an American dog. Since I am a typical American, I think the dog did it.



Agreed 100%.

Also agree on Snoopy shooting him down 100%!


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## Hunter368 (Sep 15, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I have to agree with Hunter here. Everything you described bomber is what made him the better pilot.
> 
> I have been in forms of aerial combat (yes it is a helicoper which yes is not the same as a fighter pilot/I did 14 months in Iraq and have 656 combat hours), fighting this chivalres way that you think is better, gets you killed. If I gave the benifit of the doubt to my enemies, I would not be typing this message.
> 
> ...



Thanks Chris (cool change to your sig by the way),

Thats all I have been saying to bomber or trying to get him to admit. Baron was no cold blooded killer like bomber said. He was a pilot before his time, fighting the way a fighter should fight. He was a professional warrior, fighting and doing what he could to defend his country. Thats all, nothing more or nothing less, just a warrior.

He should be given his do respect as one of the best to ever strap himself into a fighter plane.


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## timshatz (Sep 15, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


>



That's the guy. Looks pretty good for his middle 30s. Guess .303 rounds whizzing past your head does wonders for weight control!

On a related note, I read last night that he may've been the guy in the Red Abatross that was trying to cover Werner Voss's tail during Voss's Last Dogfight (the one where he took on something like 7 pilots from the 56th Squadron and put holes in all of them). According to what I've read, both he and Voss were shot down that day by the same guy (Rhys-Davies).


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## timshatz (Sep 15, 2006)

Hunter368 said:


> Thanks Chris (cool change to your sig by the way),
> 
> Thats all I have been saying to bomber or trying to get him to admit. Baron was no cold blooded killer like bomber said. He was a pilot before his time, fighting the way a fighter should fight. He was a professional warrior, fighting and doing what he could to defend his country. Thats all, nothing more or nothing less, just a warrior.
> 
> He should be given his do respect as one of the best to ever strap himself into a fighter plane.



I'm not sure if you can make a distinction between a successful warrior and a killer. The evolutionary process that takes place leads some to become better at it than others, that is true. But people are naturally averse to killing. It is something of a learned adaptation. And getting to the point at which you are really good takes time. It is a process. As you become more of a professional, it stands to reason you become a more refined killer. You are essentially refining those skills. To quote Bedford Forrest, "War means Fighting, and Fighting means Killing". Von Richtoffen refined those skills (doubtless his hunting from an early age gave him an important edge) to a point that was above his contemporaries. He did it faster and obviously better. 

I draw a line between killing and murder in this arguement. It is probably beyond the scope of this thread. As a proffessional, I do not consider what he did (given the blessing of time and distance that we have) as murder. It was killing. But that was his business.


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## FLYBOYJ (Sep 15, 2006)

Some more food for thought...

Von Richthofen's style of stalking his prey, taking advantage of the situation, pressing home the attack and then breaking off when vulnerable was adopted by many other fighter pilots of WW1 and is still a basic doctrine today. Von Richthofen was the most successful and became legendary. There are many other aces who would of surpassed Von Richthofen if not killed, wounded or if the war ended when it did, Just look at Robert Little, James McCudden, and even Albert Ball who was only 8 kills short of Von Richthofen when he was killed.


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## timshatz (Sep 15, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Some more food for thought...
> 
> Von Richthofen's style of stalking his prey, taking advantage of the situation, pressing home the attack and then breaking off when vulnerable was adopted by many other fighter pilots of WW1 and is still a basic doctrine today. Von Richthofen was the most successful and became legendary. There are many other aces who would of surpassed Von Richthofen if not killed, wounded or if the war ended when it did, Just look at Robert Little, James McCudden, and even Albert Ball who was only 8 kills short of Von Richthofen when he was killed.




Good post. While he may not've orginated the slashing attack, he definitely realized it's usefulness and exploited it. Hit and gone. Or as designer of fighter aircraft once told me, "Whack the guy and be back in the bar having a drink before he knows what hit him".


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## Erich (Sep 15, 2006)

but also notice too Richthofens tactics, aka style permeated his Jasta and later the Jagdgeschwader where "Fatty" later took over, agreesive hard hitting not giving an inch.

yes there is a difference between a warrior and a killer


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## Hunter368 (Sep 15, 2006)

timshatz said:


> I'm not sure if you can make a distinction between a successful warrior and a killer. The evolutionary process that takes place leads some to become better at it than others, that is true. But people are naturally averse to killing. It is something of a learned adaptation. And getting to the point at which you are really good takes time. It is a process. As you become more of a professional, it stands to reason you become a more refined killer. You are essentially refining those skills. To quote Bedford Forrest, "War means Fighting, and Fighting means Killing". Von Richtoffen refined those skills (doubtless his hunting from an early age gave him an important edge) to a point that was above his contemporaries. He did it faster and obviously better.
> 
> I draw a line between killing and murder in this arguement. It is probably beyond the scope of this thread. As a proffessional, I do not consider what he did (given the blessing of time and distance that we have) as murder. It was killing. But that was his business.




100% agree with you Tim. The big thing I didn't like about Bombers post was he called him "a cold blooded killer" at the same time saying "Who liked nothing better than attacking scout planes". I see both as insults to the well earned legend and reputation of the Baron. He did his job like all the fighter pilots in WW1, they shot down planes, he just did it better then the rest of them.

Also I don't believe the handful of Military members here on our forum would like to be referred to as "cold blooded killers" simply b/c they were doing what their country trained them to do......that is protecting us civilians from the enemy. I would refrain from calling someone in the military a cold blooded killer ever, not saying that you have. He did nothing wrong or illegal during his time flying, he was just very good and did things that other pilots had even started to conceive. 

He was truly years ahead of his time.


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## Hunter368 (Sep 15, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Some more food for thought...
> 
> Von Richthofen's style of stalking his prey, taking advantage of the situation, pressing home the attack and then breaking off when vulnerable was adopted by many other fighter pilots of WW1 and is still a basic doctrine today. Von Richthofen was the most successful and became legendary. There are many other aces who would of surpassed Von Richthofen if not killed, wounded or if the war ended when it did, Just look at Robert Little, James McCudden, and even Albert Ball who was only 8 kills short of Von Richthofen when he was killed.



100% agree Joe.


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## Hunter368 (Sep 15, 2006)

Erich said:


> but also notice too Richthofens tactics, aka style permeated his Jasta and later the Jagdgeschwader where "Fatty" later took over, agreesive hard hitting not giving an inch.
> 
> yes there is a difference between a warrior and a killer



Totally agree with you, like I said before, there is a difference between a warrior and a killer. The Baron was a warrior, one of the best warriors.

Erich you and all our servicemen here are warriors, never to be confussed with killers. You all did what you had to do to protect your country and us.

I personally thank you for your service.


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## Erich (Sep 15, 2006)

another chap to consider for Germany is a very late war Pour le Merit winner, Ltn. d. Reserve Ulrich Neckel of Jasta 6 the Staffelführer in the fall of 1918, he flew a very interesting camo concepted Fokker DVII. Diagonal black stripes over white that's intended useage was to throw off Allied gunners. Ulrich had Jasta 6 DvII's painted not quite all the way down the fuselage but for the most part visible the front of the fuselages all the same way: black on the white

He had 30 victories


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## timshatz (Sep 15, 2006)

More food for thought about Von Richtoffen's sheer drive and discipline...

He was shot down in mid 1917 and wounded by a bullet that graised his skull, leaving a 8 inch long groove through his scalp. Never really recovered fully from it, was out of action for a couple of months but got back into before he was ready. Had problems with getting sick in the cockpit as well as persistant bad headaches. Also had problems with mood swings, depression and violent flashes of temper. All are signs of a severe concussion (guess a .303 round against the skull will do that to ya') and possible brain damage. 

But he went back and fought successfully even with this handicap. The day he was shot down, he showed all the symptoms of combat fatigue as well (losing track of his position, difficulty in destroying a relatively easy target, breaking his own rules on fighting by flying too low to the ground, ect). There is little doubt he was exhausted when he was killed (rumor is he was a day or two away from going on leave and possibly be ordered to stop flying) but given his nature, there was really no other option for him. 

A very determined, strong person.


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## Hunter368 (Sep 15, 2006)

timshatz said:


> More food for thought about Von Richtoffen's sheer drive and discipline...
> 
> He was shot down in mid 1917 and wounded by a bullet that graised his skull, leaving a 8 inch long groove through his scalp. Never really recovered fully from it, was out of action for a couple of months but got back into before he was ready. Had problems with getting sick in the cockpit as well as persistant bad headaches. Also had problems with mood swings, depression and violent flashes of temper. All are signs of a severe concussion (guess a .303 round against the skull will do that to ya') and possible brain damage.
> 
> ...



Interesting post


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 15, 2006)

Hunter368 said:


> Totally agree with you, like I said before, there is a difference between a warrior and a killer. The Baron was a warrior, one of the best warriors.



And that is basically what I have been trying to say as well. You can not call him a killer when he just did his job extremely well and did what was expected of him.

I think that some people can not tell the difference between a killer and a soldier.


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## Hunter368 (Sep 15, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> And that is basically what I have been trying to say as well. You can not call him a killer when he just did his job extremely well and did what was expected of him.
> 
> I think that some people can not tell the difference between a killer and a soldier.




Agreed, meaning no disrespect (to civilians, I am one to) but I think that most of the people who can't tell the difference are the very people who soldiers are protecting, aka civilians.

They pass judgment at times when they don't even know what it requires to get the job done. Fighting wars is a ugly ugly thing. People should not be quick to pass judgment. Instead of passing judgment on soldiers they should just thank them and appreciate the hard job they do for us. Soldiers give us the ability to go home after work, eat bon bons, watch the football game, make a good living and live in peace.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 15, 2006)

I happen to agree with that.


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## timshatz (Sep 18, 2006)

Hunter368 said:


> Agreed, meaning no disrespect (to civilians, I am one to) but I think that most of the people who can't tell the difference are the very people who soldiers are protecting, aka civilians.
> 
> They pass judgment at times when they don't even know what it requires to get the job done. Fighting wars is a ugly ugly thing. People should not be quick to pass judgment. Instead of passing judgment on soldiers they should just thank them and appreciate the hard job they do for us. Soldiers give us the ability to go home after work, eat bon bons, watch the football game, make a good living and live in peace.



Dead on. I and a lot of civilians (regardless of what we did once apon a time) are now living happy, relatively carefree lives due to people who keep our nights (and days) safe. We make money, have families and generally live comfortable and in some cases nievely safe lives because of other people who dedicate their time (and possible lives) to keeping our the wolf away from the door. I do not believe for a second that the Utopian belief system consitutes reality. More it is a liberal offshoot of a life so safe that the realities of a daily life of strife (which most of the world is familiar with) to not apply. 

It's good to have friends. But our enemies should fear us. People in the military are the reason they do.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 18, 2006)

Could not have said it better.


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## Hunter368 (Sep 18, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Could not have said it better.



Cool camo there Chris.


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## timshatz (Sep 19, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Could not have said it better.


 Yeah, pretty cool. Is that Hartman's bird with Winter Camo?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 20, 2006)

Yes but how accurate it is I dont know.


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## timshatz (Sep 20, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Yes but how accurate it is I dont know.



Read his book and vaguely remember it saying he didn't fly the aircraft with the tulip nose for long. Thought the Russians were avoiding him. But it has to have been 20 years or more since I read that particular book.

Still looks cool.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 20, 2006)

Not sure on that. I know his Sabre after the war when he was in the Luftwaffe in the 1950s before going to train pilots for the USAF in the United States had the tulip painted on its nose.


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## timshatz (Sep 20, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Not sure on that. I know his Sabre after the war when he was in the Luftwaffe in the 1950s before going to train pilots for the USAF in the United States had the tulip painted on its nose.



Successful advertising in any case. Make guys go find somebody else a bit easier to jump.


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## Hunter368 (Sep 20, 2006)

timshatz said:


> Read his book and vaguely remember it saying he didn't fly the aircraft with the tulip nose for long. Thought the Russians were avoiding him. But it has to have been 20 years or more since I read that particular book.
> 
> Still looks cool.



That is true, he kept it for a short while only. The Russian's learnt his call name and connected the dots with the 109 with the tulip on it and avoided it. His claims declined until he realized that and got rid of the tulip. Once he got rid of the tulip his claims increased again.

All this is from the book "The Blond Knight of Germany".


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 20, 2006)

Cool did not know that.


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## Erich (Sep 20, 2006)

ah but several aces in JG 52 had colored tulip noses not just Hartmann


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## Hunter368 (Sep 20, 2006)

Erich said:


> ah but several aces in JG 52 had colored tulip noses not just Hartmann



Really? Never heard that one before. If you don't me asking Erich what is your source on that one (not doubting what you say I just would like to read it).

Like I said it was the combo of his call name and tulip that apparently gave him away. So he got rid of the tulip to help prevent the Russians from knowing in advance he was there and thus avoiding him.

Now if everyone in the JG 52 painted tulips on their planes it would of been alittle harder for them to pin point Hartmann out. Instead he just got rid of it himself.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 20, 2006)

That is true. Not sure who flew it but Bf-109K-4 (Wk. Nr. 332529) had a red tulip in the Czech in May 1945.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 20, 2006)

A Source:

Messerschmitt Me-109 Vol. II from 1942 to 1945 with many color profiles.


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## Hunter368 (Sep 20, 2006)

Thanks


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## Erich (Sep 20, 2006)

the multi volume history of JG 52 in the German, Hermann Graf had a red tulip on his machine. No, Hartmann did not have a black tulip in 45 on his G-10 or K-4 as far as I am aware. Ture enough the tulip was a character8stic marking, a dead give away if you will and easy enough to have dozens of Migs/Yaks at the Soviets disposal setting aerial traps and then spring loose


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## Hunter368 (Sep 20, 2006)

Erich said:


> the multi volume history of JG 52 in the German, Hermann Graf had a red tulip on his machine. No, Hartmann did not have a black tulip in 45 on his G-10 or K-4 as far as I am aware. Ture enough the tulip was a character8stic marking, a dead give away if you will and easy enough to have dozens of Migs/Yaks at the Soviets disposal setting aerial traps and then spring loose




Agreed I know of at least one ace where after the Russians learnt his call name set a trap for him and killed him. Just like if you were a sniper if you saw some guy wearing a commanders outfit that was a bonus, commanders outfit on was just inviting a sniper to put a bullet in your head. See Stalingrad and the thousands of sniper kills by the Russians. Alot of those were German officers.


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## pbfoot (Sep 30, 2006)

I'd like to add a few more points for my nominee William Barker VC DSO and Bar MC with 2 Bars.... Air Chief Marshall RAF Philip Joubert head of Coastal Command stated "of all the pilots of 2 world wars the greatest was Billy Barker" BGen Billy Mitchell stated to MGen Mason head of US Air Service that Barker was the premier pilot of the first war ....I would call them reasonable endorsements . He was the only allied pilot to shoot down 3 Fokker DVll in a single combat in which he was outnumbered 60.1 and for Hunter this is a local boy who lived in Dauphin and Russell MB


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## timshatz (Oct 2, 2006)

pbfoot said:


> I'd like to add a few more points for my nominee William Barker VC DSO and Bar MC with 2 Bars.... . He was the only allied pilot to shoot down 3 Fokker DVll in a single combat in which he was outnumbered 60.1 MB



I read about that years ago. Jumped a two seater, knocked it off and got jumped in turn by (what seemed like) half the Imperial German Air Force. Was wounded but still managed to get another three. At least that was the story I read. 

Was flying a Sopwith Snipe (successor to the Camel) when it happened.


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## rjkzoso (Nov 10, 2006)

Hello every one I"m new here. It looks like a great site any ways. My pick for best ww1 ace would have to be Werner Voss 1st, Raymond Collishaw 2nd. Alberta Ball would be up there to. Another interesting German ace is Theo Osterkamp he shot down 32 aircraft while flying an Albatros in ww1 and an Me109 in WW2.


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## Hunter368 (Nov 10, 2006)

rjkzoso said:


> Hello every one I"m new here. It looks like a great site any ways. My pick for best ww1 ace would have to be Werner Voss 1st, Raymond Collishaw 2nd. Alberta Ball would be up there to. Another interesting German ace is Theo Osterkamp he shot down 32 aircraft while flying an Albatros in ww1 and an Me109 in WW2.



Welcome. Its always nice to see another Canuck here (as long you are not a dumbass).


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## timshatz (Nov 10, 2006)

rjkzoso said:


> Hello every one I"m new here. It looks like a great site any ways. My pick for best ww1 ace would have to be Werner Voss 1st, Raymond Collishaw 2nd. Alberta Ball would be up there to. Another interesting German ace is Theo Osterkamp he shot down 32 aircraft while flying an Albatros in ww1 and an Me109 in WW2.



Good choice for #1, second one shows a home field advantage.


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## faf_476 (Jan 2, 2007)

For me the "Red Baron" was the best ace in ww1, he is a natural born fighter plane pilot! 

Before his record was updated by Erich Hartmann!


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## Smokey (Jan 2, 2007)

> On the 14th, he shot down three planes in ten seconds; they almost fell on each other.





> He took pride in using the least amount of ammunition necessary to bring down an enemy.



If he really was so accurate then he is among the best aces of WW1

RenÃ© Fonck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

René Fonck


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## Smokey (Jan 2, 2007)

Werner Voss sounds to have been amazing as well

Werner Voss -- 48 Victories

Werner Voss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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