# The Bf-109 Thread



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 8, 2006)

*Well I decided to start a thread about my favorite aircraft the Bf-109. I personally love the aircraft. It is my favorite of WW2. I know there have been many topics about it but I kind of figured to make a tribute thread about it and this it can be used after that to ask whatever questions, since I have seen several threads devoted to certain aspects of the Bf-109 such as flaps. I hope you enjoy this thread.*

Basically I will post a history of the Bf-109 and let others take it from there.

Willie Messerschmitt the designer of the Bf-109 joined Bayerische Flugzeug Werke A.G. which had merged all the aircraft companies from the Bavarian region. In 1934 the RLM (Reichsluftfahrministerium) made a specification for a monoplane fighter and called on Heinkel, Arado, and Focke-Wulf to design such an aircraft. Bayerische Flugzeug Werke did not recieve the tender until almost 9 months later. Work progressed quickly by Messerschmitt and his group taken the basis from the successful Bf-108 Taifun. 

The Bf-109 was built for simplicity of construction, maintenance, and operation incorporating an all metal, ovoid cross section fuselage, outward retracting landing gear, low single spar canteilever wing patented by Messerschmitt, closed cockpit canopy and movable leading edge slats. The aircraft was concieved for mass production and relied on cheap interchangable parts on non strategic materials.

The first prototype was the Bf-109V-1 (Werk Nr. 758) (Reg. D-IABI) was powered by a 695hp liquid cooled Rolls-Royce Kestrel engine. This was fitted with a shwartz fixed pitch 2 blade propeller. This was to be used until the delivery of the Jumo 210. Bf-109V-1 was first flown by Hans D. "Bubi" Knutsch on May 28, 1935.

While the Focke-Wulf and Arado prototypes were imediatly canceled the Messereschmitt and Heinkel prototypes remained in contention. The Bf-109V-1 proved perform better in a dive and more maneuverable and slightly faster however was not without its own problems. It had a very narrow undercarraige which even buckled at the initial reception at the Luftwaffe Testing Center at Rechlin. It also had a cramped cockpit, and heavy wing loading (118kg/m3) which imposed approach and take off speeds deemed to high at the time.

The Bf-109V-2 (Reg. D-IUDE) was powered by the 610hp Junkers Jumo 210A engine and had a strenghted undercarriage. BF-109V-3 (Reg. D-IOQY) was identical to teh V-2 except that it was the first prototype to be armed. It had 2 7.9mm MG 17 machine guns in the wings The Bf-109V-4 (Reg. D-IOQY) was also identical excpet that in addition to the 2 MG 17's it also incorporated a third MG-17 in the nose through the engine block and this eventually gave birth to the Bf-109B. Bf-109V-5 and V-6 were identical but powered by a Junkers Jumo-210D and a reinforced windshield, a cooling system for the machine gun where 3 slots replaced teh air intake and to the wing which redesigned at wing roots around the undercarriage.

Four Bf-109s (V-3, V-4, V-5, and V-6 along with the Heinkel He-112V-3) were sent to Spain to be tested in the Civil War there. They joined the Condor Legion 2/J88 which at the time was equiped with Heinkel He-51's. Initial combat testing showed that the Jumo 210 engines were not as reliable as needed, and the aircraft needed better handling skills. They however were impressed with the aircraft and saw the true potential of it.

The Condor Legion began to replace its He-51's with Bf-109B-1's. which was powered by a Jumo-210D. The Bf-109B-2 was different only in having a metal variable pitch VDM Hamilton Standard propellor and the pointed spinner of the previous 109's was replaced by a truncated spinner and a Jumo 210E engine. Most B-2s however recieved the 210D because of the lack of the 210E.

The Bf-109V-7 (Werk. Nr. 881) (Reg. D-IJHA) were powered by the 700hp fuel injected with 2 stage compressor Jumo 210G and was first shown at the International Flying Meeting in Zurich in July/August 1937. The Bf-109V-8 was identical except having a Jumo-210Ga.

These prototypes led to the development of the Bf-109C series. The engine hood was changed with the exhaust pipes now sticking through the airframe. The Bf-109C-1 also was armed with 4 MG-17's in the wings. The Bf-109C-2 was armed with 5 MG-17's, 4 in the wings and 1 in the engine block.

Next came the Bf-109V-9 which was pretty much identical except that it was armed with 20mm cannons in the wings rather than MG-17's. The Bf-109V-10 was the first varient to use the famed DB 600 series of engines. It was powered by a DB-600 engine. The V-11, V-12 were also powered by the same engine.

The Bf-109V-13 (Werk. Nr. 1050) (Reg. D-IPKY) was orginally equipped with the DB-600 engine, however for the Zurich Meeting of 1937 it was re-equipped by a DB-601A with a metal VDM variable Pitch Proppelller. At the Zurich meeting it set the world speed record of 610.54km/h (379.38mph) on 11 November 1937. The Bf-109D series was derived from the V-10-V-14. The initial varients were meant to have the DB-601 however they were just not available in numbers and it used the Jumo-210G until more were available. The Bf-109D-1 was powered by the 986hp DB-600A and armed with a 20mm Cannon in the engine block as well 2 MG-17s. The Bf-109D-2 was armed with an additional 2 MG-17's in the wings as well as the armament of the D-1. The Bf-109D-3 replaced the MG-17's in the wings with 2 20mm Cannon in the wings.

The Bf-109V-14 was powered by a fuel injection 1175hp DB601A engine and led to the famed Bf-109E or 'Emil'. The main design of the aircraft was the same as the Doras however it was lengthened by 25cm due to the new engine. It also had a smaller air intake and flat radiators under the wings. It used a variable pitch all metal 3 bladed VDM9-11081A propeller. The Bf-109E-0 was armed with 4 MG-17's in the nose and the wings. The Bf-109E-1 was essentially the same and was infact a mass production of the E-0. One major set back was that it did not have armour protecting the pilot or the fuel cells. The Bf-109E-2 was essentially the same except that included 2 MG-17's in the nose, 2 MG-17 in the wings, and 1 MG-FF in the engine block. The Bf-109E-3 recieved an improvement in the armament with 2 MG FF in the wings. Armoured plating was installed in the cockpit. The Bf-109E-3/B was a fighter bomber version. In 1940 the Bf-109E-4 was introduced. It saw the removal of the Hub fired 20mm Cannon and more armoured protection was installed. The Bf-109E-4/Trop was a tropical/desert version with modified air intake filter. As with the Bf-109E-3/B the E-4/B was a fighter bomber varient. Several versions of the Bf-109E-4 were powered by a DB-601N engine with a 15% higher compression rate at 1200hp. These became known as Bf-109E-4/Ns. Bf-109E-5 and E-6 were photo recon varients and used the DB-601A. It was armed with 2 MG-17s and carried Rb-21/18 camaras. The E-6 the same except using the RB-50/30. The Bf-109E-7 was essentially the same but modified for use with a 66 Gallon drop tank. It incorporated other new features including the return of the pointed spinner and a telescopic sight. The Bf-109E-7/Z used the GM-1 Boost system, and there was also a E-7B fighter bomber varient. The Bf-109E-8 was essentially the same but used the DB-601E engine. The Bf-109E-9 was the photo recon version derived from teh Bf-109E-8.

Designed from the Bf-109E varients was the Bf-109T. The Bf-109T-1 was a carrierborne version of the Bf-109E meant for use from the Graf Zeppelin class carriers being built by the Germans. It incorperated a longer wing span, an arrestor hook and was powered by the DB-601N. I personally believe that it was not well suited for Carrier operations, mainly because of the narrow track and poor visability when the aircraft is on the ground. The Bf-109T-2 was just a modificaiton of the T-1, having its carrier gear removed for ground operations.

The Bf-109F series saw the first real radical change in design of the Bf-109 since the C/D/E varients. It also introduced a substantial increase in performance. In my opinion it was the best of the Bf-109 varients. Not necessarily my favorite (Bf-109G-6) but the best varient. The wings wree rounded off at the tips and it incorporated shorter leading edge slats, shorter ailerons and an increase chord to keep the same efficienceny, the rudder was slightly reduced, the tailwheel became partially retractable, the underwing radiators were made shallower and finer, the nose was more streamlined and the spinner rounded and more streamlined with the nose to reduce drag. Horizontal tail surfaces were now thicker, more solid and cantilever. The braces under the horizontal surfaces were removed and the tips rounded. Some people will go as far as saying that the Bf-109F series were the most beautiful of the Bf-109s. 

The Bf-109F-1 was armed with one MG 151 20mm Cannon and 2 MG-17 and was powered by the DB-601N. The F-1/B was a fighter bomber and the F-1/B Trop was a desert/tropical modification. The Bf-109F-2 was nearly identical only difference being armed with a MG-151/15 cannon. Other varients being the F-2/B, F-2 Trop, and F-2/Z fitted with the GM-1 Boost system. The Bf-109F-3 was powered by the DB-601E engine. The Bf-109F-4 was essentially the same as the F-3 but incorporating better armour protecton for the pilot and armed with the MG-151/20 Cannon. There also was a F-4/B, F-4 Trop, and F-4Z.

The next major varient of the Bf-109 was the Bf-109G series which was built around the DB-605 engine and was the most produced varient of the Bf-109. The Bf-109G-0 was essentially a Bf-109F-4 with some modifications made to it mostly being a larger radiator fairing. The G-0 was marred by problems including the radiator oil catching fire. To prevent this the 2 cooling fairing were added and this led to the Bf-109G-1. The Bf-109G-1 had a pressurized cockpit and the canaopy was redesigned and strenthened. The Bf-109G-2 was identical to the G-1 only the cockpit was not pressurized. The pilots seat was entirely armoured. There was also a G-2/Trop. The Bf-109G-2/R-2 was a recon varient fitted with the GM-1 Boost system. The Bf-109G-3 was a high allitude fighter varient with a pressurized cockpit and the series was built in paralell with the Bf-109G-4. The Bf-109G-4 was non pressurized and differed from the G-2 only in that it had larger wheels to support the increased weight of the G series aircraftand the position of the radio antennas. There was also a G-4/Trop desert/tropical version, G-4/R2, and G-4/R4 versions that were photo recon and the G-4/U3 equiped with the MW50 injection system. The Bf-109G-6 was produced in the greatest numbers (over 12,000 aircraft produced). It was powered by the DB-605A engine and was armed by 2 MG 131 13mm Machine Guns and 1 MG 151/20 20mm Cannon in the nose. This aircraft was the first to have the fairings to cover the breaches of the new MG-131s to be installed in front of the cockpit. In 1943 the Galland Hood replaced the standard 109 canopy. It was a bullet proof glass canopy to protect the pilot. Later these were replaced with the Erla Hood which had simplified structural supports. Beginning in 1944 it recieved a new tailfin and larger rudder. Other versions of the Bf-109G-6 included the G-6/R-2 fitted with RB-50/30 camaras, G-6/R-3 fitted with RB-75/30 camaras, G-6 Trop, G-6/U2 with GM-1 Boost, G-6/U3 with MW50, G-6/U4 with 30mm MK 108 cannon, G-6/U4N which was a night fighter varient fitted with the Naxos FuG 350 radar detection system, G-6/U5 with MG-151/20 Cannon, G-6Y with FuG 16ZY whip antenna, and G-6AS with a DB-605AS engine with a bigger turbo charger for high alltitude use. The Bf-109G-12 was a 2 seat trainer version built from existing G-2 and G-6 models. The Bf-109G-14 was actually built before the Bf-10910 because the DB-605D engine was not ready. The major differeence to a G-6 was the larger tail wheel. The Bf-109G-10 was powered by a 2000hp DB-605D engine. The Erla Hood was standard, The bumps covering the breaches on the G-10 were smaller than those of the G-6 if they were instlaled with the DB-605DM which was a 605D with MW-50 system.

The next and last major varient of the Bf-109 was the the Bf-109K. The Bf-109K was fitted with the 2000hp DB-605D engine and pretty much resembled the Bf-109G-10. There were several varients planned including the K-1 which was to be pressurized, the K-2 standard, and the K-3 reconnaisance) These were all abandoned with the K-2 possibly having a few built. The Bf-109K-4 was however produced in numbers with about 1700 actually being built before wars end. The only major differences being the circular antenna on the back moved on fram and put slightly higher, the access panel for the radio being put slightly higher up, the ailerons fitten with trim tabs and extra undercarraige doors. The standard armament of the Bf-109K-4 was 2 MG-131/13 13 mm Machine guns and 1 MG 151/20 20mm Cannon or one MK 108 30 mm Cannon. The Bf-109K-6 was standard with the MK 108 however was only tested. A recon version the Bf-109K-8 never left the drawing board as well as the Bf-109K-12 2 seat trainer. The final version of the Bf-109K was to be the Bf-109K-14 high alltitude varient. It was to be powered by the DB-605L but never was produced.

There are actually many many more subvarients of the Bf-109 especially of the Bf-109G verients. I did not cover all, frankly because I got tired of typing and to also leave it open for more discussion.


*Performance Stats*

*Bf-109B*

Powerplant:
Bf 109B-0:
Model: Junkers Jumo 210B
Type: Liquid-cooled, inverted V12
Number: One Horsepower: 610 hp

Bf 109B-1:
Model: Junkers Jumo 210D
Type: Liquid-cooled, inverted V12
Number: One Horsepower: 635 hp

Bf 109B-2:
Model: Junkers Jumo 210E
Type: Liquid-cooled, inverted V12
Number: One Horsepower: 640 hp
Dimensions:
Wing span: 32 ft. 4½ in. (9.87m)
Length: 27 ft. 11 in. (8.51m)
Height: 8 ft. 6 in. (2.59m)
Wing Surface Area: N/A

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Weights:
Empty: 3,483 lbs. (1580kg)
Max. Loaded: 4,850 lbs. (2120kg)

Performance:
Maximum Speed: 292mph (470kph)
Range: N/A
Initial climb: 2,200 ft/min (670.5m/min)
Service Ceiling: 26,575 ft. (8100m)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armament:
Two 7.92mm MG 17 machine guns above engine.
One 7.92mm MG 17 machine guns firing through hub.

Avionics: N/A


*Bf-109C*

Type: Day fighter
Origin: Bayerische Flegzeugwerke
Crew: One
Service Delivery: Spring, 1938
Production: N/A

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Powerplant:
Bf 109C-1:
Model: Junkers Jumo 210Ga
Type: Liquid-cooled, inverted V12 Number: One
Horsepower: 700 hp for take-off, 675 hp at 12,470 ft

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimensions:
Wing span: 32 ft. 4½ (9.97m)
Length: 28 ft. 0.66 in. (8.51m)
Height: 8 ft. 0½ in. (2.59m)
Wing Surface Area: 174 sq. ft.

Weights:
Empty: 3522 lb.
Maximum, Loaded: 5062 lb.
Performance:
Maximum Speed:
Sea Level: 261 mph
14,765 ft.: 292 mph
Range: 405 miles
Initial climb: 2,200 ft/min (670.5m/min)
Service Ceiling: 27,560 ft.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armament:
Two 7.92mm MG 17 in wings
Ammunition: 420 rpg
Two 7.92mm MG 17 mounted above engine
Ammunition: 500 rpg

Avionics:
N/A

*Bf-109E*

Type: Single-seat fighter
Origin: Bayerische Flegzeugwerke

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Powerplant:
Model: Daimler-Benz 601Aa
Type: Liquid Cooled Inverted V12
Number: One Horsepower: 1,150hp

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimensions:
Wing span: 32 ft. 4.5 in.
Length: 28 ft. 8 in.
Height: 8 ft. 10 in.
Wing Surface Area: N/A

Weights:
Empty: 4,440 lb.
Maximum, Loaded: 5,520 lb.
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 357 mph at 12,300 ft.
Maximum Climb: 3,100 feet per minute
Range: 412 Miles
Service Ceiling: 36,000 ft.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armament:
Two 20mm MG/FF mounted in the wings.
Ammunition: 60 rounds per gun
Two 7.9mm MG 17 mounted above engine.
Ammunition: 1,000 rounds per gun

Avionics: N/A

*Bf-109F*

Type: Single-seat fighter
Origin: Bayerische Flegzeugwerke

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Powerplant:
Model: Daimler-Benz 601E
Type: Liquid Cooled Inverted V12
Number: One Horsepower: 1,300hp

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimensions:
Wing span: 32 ft. 6½ in.
Length: 29 ft. 0½ in.
Height: 8 ft. 6 in.
Wing Surface Area: N/A

Weights:
Empty: 4,330 lb.
Maximum, Loaded: 6,054 lb.
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 390 mph at 22,000 ft.
Maximum Climb: 3,320 feet per minute
Range: 440 Miles
Service Ceiling: 37,000 ft.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armament:
One 15mm MG 151 mounted between cylinder heads and firing through the propeller hub.
Ammunition: 200 rounds
Two 7.9mm MG 17 mounted above engine.
Ammunition: 500 rounds per gun.

Avionics:
N/A

*Bf-109G *

Type: Single-seat fighter
Origin: Bayerische Flegzeugwerke

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Powerplant:
Bf 109G-1:
Model: Daimler-Benz 605A-1
Type: Liquid Cooled Inverted V12
Number: One Horsepower: 1,475 hp

Bf 109G-6:
Model: Daimler-Benz 605AM
Type: Liquid Cooled Inverted V12
Number: One Horsepower: 1,800 hp*
*With Water/Methanol injection.

Later G models:
Model: Daimler-Benz 605DC
Type: Liquid Cooled Inverted V12
Number: One Horsepower: 2,000 hp*
*With Water/Methanol injection.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimensions:
Wing span: 32 ft. 6½ in. (9.92m)
Length: 29 ft. 7 in. (9.02m)
Height: 11 ft. 2 in. (3.40m)
Wing Surface Area: 127.77 sq. ft. (16.05m²)
Weights:
Empty: 5,893 lb. (2673 kg)
Maximum, Loaded: 6,945 lb. (3150 kg)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 386 mph at 22,965 ft.
Range: 447 Miles (729 km)
Service Ceiling: 38,550 ft. (11,750m)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armament:
Bf 109G-1:
One 30mm MG 108 cannon firing through hub.
Ammunition: 60 Rounds
Two 13mm MG 131 machine guns above engine.
Two 20mm MG 151 cannon under wings.

Bf 109G-6:
One 30mm MG 108 cannon firing through hub.
Ammunition: 60 Rounds
Or
One 20mm MG 151 cannon
Ammunition: 150 Rounds
And
Two 13mm MG 131 machine guns above engine.
Ammunition: 300 rpg

*Bf-109K*

Type: Single-seat fighter
Origin: Bayerische Flegzeugwerke

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Powerplant:
Model: Daimler-Benz 605
Type: Liquid Cooled Inverted V12
Horsepower: 1,550hp

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimensions:
Wing span: 32 ft. 6½ in.
Length: 29 ft. 4 in.
Height: 8 ft. 6 in.
Wing Surface Area: N/A
Weights:
Empty: N/A
Maximum, Loaded: 7,438 lb.

Performance:
Maximum Speed: 452 mph at 19,685 ft.
Maximum Climb: 4,823 feet per minute
Range: 365 Miles

Service Ceiling: 41,000 ft.

Armament:
One 30mm Mk 108 or Mk 103 mounted between cylinder heads and firing through the propeller hub
And
Two 15mm MG 151 mounted above engine

Avionics:
N/A


----------



## CharlesBronson (Jan 9, 2006)

> Armament:
> One 30mm Mk 108 or Mk 103 mounted between cylinder heads and firing through the propeller hub
> And
> Two 15mm MG 151 mounted above engine




Sorry Adler but the Me-109K never used the Mauser Mg-151 in the cowling, it simply cannot fit that gun in this location, the armament of the K-4 series is one Mk-108 with 65 round in the central position plus 2 x MG-131 with 300 rounds belt.


----------



## FLYBOYJ (Jan 9, 2006)

Nice Adler!


----------



## Nonskimmer (Jan 9, 2006)

Very nice little summary. Nice pics too. Seen several of them in books.


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 9, 2006)

I had an interesting Genesis or evolution of my favorite aircraft, starting from being old enough to remember anything...

As some of u know, my Grandfather was a member of VMF-214 Black Sheep, so naturally the Corsair has been in my life since bottle feeding... As I grew up and became more involved in the "Aviation Culture", I learned of the odds that the German pilots were fighting against in the skies over Germany... I was struck at the heroism and dedication to Germany that these men faced multiple times a day, till they either died in combat, or were so severely wounded they couldnt fly anymore......

The Bf-109 became my favorite aircraft... I drew so many pictures of it that I saw it in my sleep... 

Thanks for puttin this thread up Adler... Alittle trip down memory lane was just what I needed...


----------



## KraziKanuK (Jan 10, 2006)

Adler nice but....

The speed of the K-4 was 452mph when using 1.98ata and C3 fuel with MW50. Only 4 Gruppen were autherized to use 1.98ata (the DC motor). This occured in ~mid March 1945. In mid April there was ~150 K-4s in these 4 Gruppen with ~80 a/c servicable. The K-4 at 1.80ata did ~444mph (@7.5km) on 1850hp from the 605DB engine using C3 or B4+MW50.

The bulges for the fuselage mgs did not become smaller but became more aerodynamic, ie longer.

The opening in the spinner of the E-2 was not a cannon but a towing fitting. Also, the Aa motor was the export version of the A.


----------



## Gnomey (Jan 10, 2006)

Good info and pics Alder, nice pics too Les, made for very interesting reading.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 10, 2006)

Thanks guys and thanks for the pics also. 

Also thanks for any corrections. As I said I was writing all this off of my memory and I may very well have made mistakes.


----------



## Udet (Jan 10, 2006)

Also in paragraph devoted to the G series, only the G-6/AS was mentioned.

Also +/- 300 G-5s received the modified DB 605 AM/ASM, something that made them G-5/AS and finally the standardization of the G-6 series trimmed for the very high altitude action: the G-14/AS.

Such toys were significantly superior to their fundamental -contemporary- British enemy, the Spitfire Mk. IX.


----------



## Jabberwocky (Jan 10, 2006)

Udet said:


> Also in paragraph devoted to the G series, only the G-6/AS was mentioned.
> 
> Also +/- 300 G-5s received the modified DB 605 AM/ASM, something that made them G-5/AS and finally the standardization of the G-6 series trimmed for the very high altitude action: the G-14/AS.
> 
> Such toys were significantly superior to their fundamental -contemporary- British enemy, the Spitfire Mk. IX.



I'd think most Spitfire pilots would disagree with you.

Which version of the Spitfire IX are you talking about? 

Standard Mk. IX with a Merlin 61 at +16lbs?

Mk IX with a Merlin 63 at +18lbs?

LF Mk. IX/XVI with a Merlin 66 at +18 lbs or +25 lbs?

HF Mk. IX with a Merlin 70 at +18 lbs?

Superiority in what performance aspects?

I think the 109 was a fantastic plane, don't get me wrong, but its swings and roundabouts as to whether it was 'significantly superior' to a MK IX/VII/VIII Spitfire.


----------



## P38 Pilot (Jan 10, 2006)

Nice job Alder. Here's a Me-109 pic.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 11, 2006)

Thanks.


----------



## CharlesBronson (Jan 11, 2006)

3D art about the Emil flown by Adolf Galland in the early years of JG-26.
















All images extracted from:

http://gunpoint-3d.com


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 12, 2006)

looks a good site, shame you have to pay...........


----------



## CharlesBronson (Jan 12, 2006)

Pay for what...?


----------



## loomaluftwaffe (Jan 13, 2006)

i like the bf109 cos i believe it is a good aircraft and im sick of seeing brits and yanks killing 190s and 109s on TV .


----------



## lesofprimus (Jan 13, 2006)

> and im sick of seeing brits and yanks killing 190s and 109s on TV .


Reality doesnt care if ur sick of it or not...


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 13, 2006)

LOL


----------



## Gnomey (Jan 13, 2006)




----------



## MacArther (Jan 13, 2006)

ignore this, go to next page. CPU at school stinks


----------



## MacArther (Jan 13, 2006)

Give me the day, and I should be able to post some scans of great combat paintings concerning 109s


----------



## delcyros (Jan 13, 2006)

Nicely done, Adler.
I don´t have such knowledge in detail, so please let me ask a question:
While most agree that the Bf-109F4 was pinnacle of it´s evolution (factoring flight behavior also), I read that the Bf-109 G2 was even better. This variant replaced almost all fron service Bf-109 in late 1942, it had the same weaponry and therefore the same aerodynamic clean lines (no Beule for MG 131). But it was powered by an early DB 605, giving this plane extraordinary acceleration, climb and top speed (I read figures between 656 Km/h and 666 Km/h, but don´t know about the altitudes). 
Wouldn´t this make the G2 faster than the G6(early)? And how about the weight? What is the difference between F4-G2- and G6?


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 14, 2006)

Again this is off the top of my head so I might be wrong I will look it up later to confirm or correct what I just posted but this is what I have here:

Bf-109F-4
Weight Empty: 2590kg
Weight Loaded: 3117kg
Max Speed: 624 kmh

Bf-109G-6
Weight Empty: 2700kg
Weight Loaded: 3150kg
Max Speed: 623kmh


As for the G-2 performance I am not sure on how it compared to the G-6 

I do however know that the G-2 was a non pressurized version of the G-1 with the pilots seat completely armoured and cockpit venilation vents fitted. Other than that it was identical to the G-1 which was identical to the F-4 but with the DB-605A engine but with a wider intake and a Fo-870 oil cooler, wider 3 blade VDM 3 meter propellor and pressureized.

There were 1587 G-2's built.


----------



## delcyros (Jan 14, 2006)

Thanks, Adler. I am abit surprised that the difference in weight isn´t that much between F4 and G6 (G2 should weight less than G6 because of the lighter armrment, right?), resp. G2. I always read that the plane (G6) wasn´t that agile because it was much heavier than the F4.
How can the speed difference be explained? 654 Km/h for G2 and 623 only for the G6 (which isn´t faster than a F4!), wow.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 14, 2006)

I am going to have to look up the actual figures.


----------



## Erich (Jan 14, 2006)

will add a touch but reserved for one of my books. The G-6/AS became apparent as one of the most important 109's for reeiving the appearance of the vaunted P-61B in the spring of 1944. II./JG 11 and and the high altitude staffel 2./Jg 3 and later I./Jg 3 as a whole were equipped, 109 gruppe of jG 1 later as well. Crat wre painted in overall RLM 76 licht-Blau for these close to 30,000 feet escapades. The (two)? stage supercharger equipped units could give an incrase in overall speed performance for a max of 10 minutes if not pushed to hard but under combat experience it was found it could also go to about 20 minutes but in due course suffer from blown piston(s) and a pilot then at the mercy of the US fighters. Unfortunately it had been found however even with a better craft for combat that US fighters on most occassions had the upper hand with superior numbers and the superior altitude when engaging.

In August of 44 it was already apparent that Berlinwas getting hammered by obnoxious Mosquito bombers of the RAF LSNF and that local defence of Fw 190A's was not suitable to protect let alone even come close to shooting down the mossies even on a dily basis......thus the Bf 109G-6/AS which could handle the higher altitudes, lighter armor and less "heavy" arms was a God-send to the beleagured Luftwaffe night fighter defences. The craft then became the mainstay of III./JG 300 and esepcially the 10th Nachtstaffel for combating these pesky problems, the 9th and 11st staffels then remained in the day time fighter role. 10th nacht flew the G-6/AS and when obsorbed into II./NJG 11 flew the bird along with increasing numbers of G-14/AS equipment until the G-6/AS was phased out


----------



## KraziKanuK (Jan 14, 2006)

Might want to take a look at this 109 site, http://www.beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeister/index.php?id=7&L=1


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 20, 2006)

Cool thanks for the website.


----------



## rebel8303 (Jan 26, 2006)

Very nice thread
Dude it seems impossible to me to remember all that numbers for Bf 109
 =D>   
Bf 109 is nice
I like the Z version (extreme firepower) 
Do you know if any prototypes where made?


----------



## KraziKanuK (Jan 26, 2006)

rebel8303 said:


> Very nice thread
> Dude it seems impossible to me to remember all that numbers for Bf 109
> =D>
> Bf 109 is nice
> ...


Yes a Z was made but was destroyed by bombing, never flew.


----------



## delcyros (Jan 26, 2006)

From what I know, no Bf-109Z ever left the drawing board. Just a preliminary study with two Klemm Kl-25 used instead of Bf-109, was produced and test flown. The twin performed statisfying.


----------



## CharlesBronson (Jan 26, 2006)

KraziKanuK said:


> Might want to take a look at this 109 site, http://www.beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeister/index.php?id=7&L=1



Very good, interesting the comparative between the F-4 and the FW-190A-2


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 28, 2006)

delcyros said:


> From what I know, no Bf-109Z ever left the drawing board. Just a preliminary study with two Klemm Kl-25 used instead of Bf-109, was produced and test flown. The twin performed statisfying.



There was one Bf-109Z-3 prototype built but it was never flown. The Z-1 was 2 Bf-109F airframes mated together and the Z-2 was supposed to have 30mm Cannons.


----------



## CharlesBronson (Jan 28, 2006)

*A episode of the Happy days in the Eastern Front*.

1941 brought the relocation of JG 51 to the Eastern Front. Here Bär's score rose quickly. On 2 July 1941 he was promoted to Leutnant and awarded the Knight's Cross, having totalled 27 kills. When he reached 60 victories, on 14 August 1941, Bär was decorated with the Oak Leaves. On one day, 30 August 1941, Bär scored 6 Soviet planes. From the beginning of 1942 Bär took command of IV/JG 51, and in mid-February he was awarded by Swords, having achieved 90 kills. In the spring of 1942, Bär was to face significant new challenges - - the heavy air battles in the southern part of the Russo-German Front, the Kerch Peninsula area. 


"In these days, two of the Luftwaffe 's top aces arrived to command positions in JG 77 in the Crimea: Hauptmann Gordon Gollob, whose score stood at 86, was sent from the Test Centre at Rechlinto take over as Geschwaderkommodore , and Hauptmann Heinz Bär with 91 victories to his credit was sent from IV./JG 51 on the Moscow front to take charge of I./JG 77. Both were highly awarded - Bär with the Swords to the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves while Gollob carried the Oak Leaves. 

These two men were however had diametrically opposed personalities. "Pritzl" Bär, the notoriously undisciplined Lepiziger who simply refused to fly on combat missions whenever he didn't feel 'inspired' and the harsh Nazi follower MacGollob of old Prussian military style definitely would have clashed, had not Bär's I./JG 77 hastily been transferred to the Mediterranean area a few weeks later. However, during the last two weeks of May 1942, Bär and Gollob practically 'took over' the air over the Kerch - Taman area. 

On 16 May, Heinz Bär proved his skills by shooting down two LaGG-3s - his 92nd and 93rd victories. Next day, Gollob followed by destroying three R-5 light bombers. He there after attacked a Yak-1 piloted by Sergeant N. K. Chayka. He hit the Yakovlev, saw it go down and returned home, reporting it as his 93rd victory (claiming it as a LaGG-3). Not caring much about the war in general, Gollob started competing with his subordinate in the cynical manner that characterized many of the Luftwaffe fighter aces during World War II. The fate of his last victim didn't bother the ambitious Gollob the slightest. Having suffered severe wounds from the machine guns and automatic cannon in Gollob's Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, the young Sergeant Chayka struggled at the controls of his damaged Yakovlev fighter. He managed to bring it back to the Khersones airfield, but lost control of it during landing and crashed into another Yak-1. Both planes were destroyed and Chayka was killed. 

Having returned to base, Gollob learned that Bär meanwhile had bagged three MiG-3s. Hauptmann Gollob continued to strive for successes, picking easy targets during the following days. In contrast to the common fighter tactic of attacking from above, Gollob preferred to sneak up from ground-level, to be surethat no-one tried to attack him from the blind spot beneath. An anonymous pilot of JG 77 wrote the following account of Gollob's way of fighting: 

'Gollob flew from Kerch together with his wingman. They positioned themselves at a low altitude beneath a Russian formation. Then they started climbing in spirals, carefully maintaining their position beneath the enemy formation. Before the peacefully flying Russians had even suspected any mischief, the two planes at the bottom of their formation had been shot down and the two Germans were gone.' (Prien: JG 77, p. 1018.) 

On 18 May, another three obsolete R-5 bombers fell prey to Gollob's private ambitions, raising his kill score to 96. Yet again he was surpassed by Bär, who got involved in a combat with twelve Soviet fighters over the Tamanskaya Sound and shot down two LaGG-3s. The same day, Heinz Bär's I./JG 77 was visitedby his personal friend, Jagfliegergeneral Adolf Galland . A detail in this context is that a deep animosity eventually would develop between Galland and Gollob. Having sacked Gollob from his post as fighter plane expert due to lacking competence in 1944, Galland as Jagdfliegergeneral soon found himself targeted by Gollob's plotting (in house arrest early in 1945, Galland was informed that Gollob collected material against him regarding his private use of Luftwaffe cars, his gambling and his notorious womanizing). 

On 19 May, Gollob and Bär both were in action. The former managed to bring down three R-5s again, but the magical '100th victory' slipped away. Meanwhile, Heinz Bär shot five Ishak fighters from the sky, for which he was mentioned in the OKW bulletin on the following day: 

' Hauptmann Bär, the Gruppenkommandeur in a Jagdgeschwader, achieved his 99th to 103rd aerial victories yesterday. The total victory tally of Jagdgeschwader 77 has increased to 2,011.' 

Next day, Gollob lurked along the Caucasus coast and managed to bring down a DB-3 bomber - being the tenth German fighter pilot to surpass the 100th victory score - followed by an unhappy LaGG-3." 








Text:

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/bar/bar.htm

Drawings: Victor Gonzalez.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 28, 2006)

Nice info and profiles.


----------



## Gnomey (Jan 28, 2006)

Yep, good stuff CB!


----------



## CharlesBronson (Jan 29, 2006)

And what a hell......more drawings this time from JG-54 pilots.



















Two pilots that are most identified with the powerful Fw-190A but started his career in the Bf-109.













JG-54 bagdes:


----------



## rebel8303 (Jan 29, 2006)

Nice profiles!


----------



## alejandro_ (Jan 30, 2006)

> How can the speed difference be explained? 654 Km/h for G2 and 623 only for the G6 (which isn´t faster than a F4!), wow.



The G6 had a reinforced structure landing gear, extra armour and reinforced armament. This brought the weight up by 300kg, and the engine power remained the same. The aerodynamics were negative affected too. As a consequence the performance of the G6 was far below than the G2.

Regards


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 30, 2006)

That sounds reasonable.


----------



## krupp (Feb 4, 2006)

i like Fw190 more.


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 4, 2006)

me too to be honest.........


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 4, 2006)

krupp said:


> i like Fw190 more.



I like the Bf-109 better. The Fw-190 was a better aircraft but I like the Bf-109 better and besides....

This is The Bf-109 Thread.


----------



## krupp (Feb 4, 2006)

you right.
can you tell me how much Bf109 be Made in WWII, all of them.


----------



## KraziKanuK (Feb 4, 2006)

Look in near the bottom of the page for production of new 109s from Jan 1944 http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=2462&page=3

File is 'Bf 109 Neubau.doc' 

All told there was ~35,000 109s built in Germany and Hungary. Some say the Hungarian 109s had better quality than the German 109s.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 4, 2006)

Yes about 35,000 to 36,000 Bf-109s were built in all varients with the Bf-109G being produced in the most numbers.


----------



## krupp (Feb 4, 2006)

XieXie


----------



## rebel8303 (Feb 4, 2006)

I like more the Bf 109 because of it's design. But I would prefer the Fw 190


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 5, 2006)

The 109 is just my favorite aircraft of WW2, I know it was not the best fighter of WW2.


----------



## CharlesBronson (Feb 5, 2006)

An example of late war kill with the Bf-109 G-14.



> Fifty eight years after this air battle, 1st Lt Richard Franz describes his recollections of this day “on the other end” of the description in “The Yoxford Boys and the Arnheim Affair: The 357th FG in operations during the air battle on 19 September 1944”. 1st Lt Franz was at this time the Captain of 7th Squadron of II. Group, in the 11th Fighter Wing (7./JG11). He was an experienced fighter pilot with 6 shoot downs (1 x P47 and 5 x B17), which he achieved as pilot in STURMSTAFFEL 1 and in 11./JG3 between Dec 43 and May 44. Lt Franz was shot down over Berlin in aerial combat on Apr 25th 1945, while Captain of 1./JG11, and ended WWII as a POW in Russia with a total of 23 certified shoot downs. He himself had been shot down 6 times; he baled out one time and made 5 belly landings. After returning from Russian POW camps on Dec 23rd 1947, he joined the newly created German Air Force on Jan 1st 1956. He was than acting as flight instructor on Harvard AT-6 and Fouga-Magister CM 170 to train young German fighter pilots in Landsberg/Lech, Bavaria, Germany. He retired in 1980 as Lt.Colonel at the age of 58 (born on Oct 10th 1922).
> 
> 
> 
> ...









http://www.cebudanderson.com/franz.htm


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 10, 2006)

Good post.


----------



## CharlesBronson (Apr 10, 2006)

A nice art about one of the last Me-109 G-14 used by Erich Hartmann.


----------



## Chocks away! (May 11, 2006)

I love the bf 109, it was a soldier of the skies, a truly classic aircraft, and it was used by some of the greatest pilots ever. It was probably the plane that shot down most enemy aircraft in history! Definately the most produced aircraft ever, and also, pretty mean looking if you ask me.


----------



## lesofprimus (May 12, 2006)

> Definately the most produced aircraft ever


Ummmm.........


----------



## Udet (May 12, 2006)

Chocks:

The Bf 109 was alongside the soviet IL-2 the most produced plane ever.


----------



## CharlesBronson (May 13, 2006)

About 33.500 Bf-109 were produced compared with near 36,000 Il-2, also an aircraft manufactured in large numbers was the trainer bliplane Polikarpov U-2/Po-2, some 34,000 made.

Aniway the BF-109 in the most produced fighter aircraft.


----------



## Udet (May 13, 2006)

Bronson:

Right. But sources of course vary regarding the approximate total number of Bf 109s produced. 

Some put the lowest figure in the 33,000/33,500 (as you do) while others put the highest figure in the 35,500 made. (Note that the IL-2 continued in production after the war).

The difference between the total production number of Bf 109s and IL-2s can be considered marginal.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 19, 2006)

The exact number may never be known but Udets numbers there are the general rule for the Bf-109.


----------



## CharlesBronson (May 24, 2006)

There was 35.0000 designated Werk Ns, but some of these were destroyed in factory by bombing, thats why 33,550 seems razonable.


----------



## AVI (May 25, 2006)

Does anybody have any copies of Messerschmitt factory engineering drawings of the Bf 109 *rudder* and/or photographs showing the construction of the bare metal rudder frame in detail? Any model from Bf 109E thru Bf 109K.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 26, 2006)

I think if you search the forum you might find them. I will see if I can find the threads but I think we had a Bf-109K manual. I remember translating one for someone but I could not remember if it had any drawings of what you are looking for or not.


----------



## Denniss (Nov 23, 2006)

Nice article but needs some corrections:

D-Series:
No Bf 109D production version got the DB 600 engine - have you ever seen a Bf 109D image ?
-> large Jumo-style cooler below the engine (as with Bf 109 B/C), only two-bladed prop
They reverted back to the Jumo 210.

E-series:
If you speak of the DB 601A-1 or Aa then please never use the 1100PS for the A-1 or 1175PS for the Aa as this 1-min-rating was not available in the Bf 109. The A-1 had max 990PS and the Aa 1045PS (Take-off Power, 5-min-rating)

The E-2 was not produced for an unknown reason, the -3 did not have an engine cannon.
The E-4 got some armor improvements and the improded MG FF/M cannons available to fire the new high-capacity HE shell called minengeschoss (mine shot)
It's somewhat safe to assume the E-1/B and E-4/B got the uprated DB 601Aa engine instead of the standard 601A-1.
Was there really the E-3/B (never heard of nor seen)
DB 601N in the E-4/N and E-7/N did have 1175PS take-off power and not 1200.
There was also a E-4/BN version, the fighter-bomber version of the E-4/N
E-5 is the recon version of E-3, E-6 the recon version of the E-4/N
E-7 is basically an E-4 with drop tanks, same with E-7/N and E-4N; The E-7Z should better be called E-7/NZ as it required a DB 601N engine.
There was never ever a DB 601E in the Emil, the E-8 was a MG-armed recon version of the E-7 or of alder machines upgraded to E-7 standard.
The E-9 was the recon version of the E-7N

F-series:
The 109F-1 did use a MG FF/M engine cannon
There was no F-2/Z, cancelled in favour of the DB 601E-engined F-4/Z
All DB 601E engined variants did receive a new prop with wider blades (something the brits didn't know at the time they calculated the F-4 performance based on their F-2 with not fully working engine)

G-series:
There's no Galland-hood, it's called the ERLA-haube (with Galland head-armor). And it was not standard, it was only used in Erla-built machines (AFAIK introduced with G-4) and on most G-5/AS, G-6/As and G-14/AS.
All /AS conversions (see above) received the new wooden tail with larger rudder and a streamlined engine cover without MG 131 bulges.
AS macines did not have a bigger turbocharger but a bigger mechanical supercharger taken from the DB 603
The G-10 used the 605DM, later 605DB, the first with ~1700PS, the latter with 1850PS (later reduced to 1800PS due to malfunctions and overheating), all with MW-50). the G-10 also had the new wooden tail with larger rudder as standard.
The G-14 was an attempt to standardize all the improvements made to the G-6, it's practically a late-production G-6. Most of them had the Erla-canopy and all of them had the new tail as well as MW-50 injection.

K-series
The K-4 should have used the MK 108 as standard armament but due to shortages the MG 151/20 was possible too.
The K-4 reached a maximum speed of 715 km/h (~445 mph), a prototype with a special prop reached the well-known 728 km/h (~452mph)


----------



## Civettone (Feb 18, 2007)

I remember Kurfürst saying something like the K-4 getting clearance to use the DB 605 at 1.98ata and with MW 50 which delivered 728 kmh? (Must have been the 605DSC engine then)



But what I want to know ... did the Bf 109K-6 have wooden wings? (I read this a LEMB before it went offline.)

Kris


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 18, 2007)

I dont know but I dont think so. I have never read anything to say they did.


----------



## Kurfürst (Feb 22, 2007)

Denniss said:


> E-series:
> If you speak of the DB 601A-1 or Aa then please never use the 1100PS for the A-1 or 1175PS for the Aa as this 1-min-rating was not available in the Bf 109. The A-1 had max 990PS and the Aa 1045PS (Take-off Power, 5-min-rating)



That`s half-correct. The DB 601A and Aa had 1100 and 1175 PS output cleared for them at the start of the war, but that was a 1-min special overload function, appearantly for low-level flights and/or takeoff purposes.

Mike Williams has claims on his site stating otherwise, but those are fairly baseless, using selective quoting of manuals. Even French papers of captured Emils from 1939 note to 1100 HP rating. Speaking of it, the absance of Aa powered variants or the claims regarding the DB 601N are baseless as well.




> The G-10 used the 605DM, later 605DB, the first with ~1700PS, the latter with 1850PS (later reduced to 1800PS due to malfunctions and overheating), all with MW-50). the G-10 also had the new wooden tail with larger rudder as standard.



The G-10 used the same engines as the 109K. 

a, DB 605 DM, with 1800 PS output at SL, at 1.75ata.

b DB 605DB/DC, the same engine as a matter of fact, but it could be set for either DB or DC configuration for B-4 or C-3 fuel.

ba, When set to DB, output was 1850 PS, either with B-4 + MW-50 or on C-3 fuel alone.
bb, When set to DC, there were a number of possibilities:
bba, Set to 1.98ata, running at 1.98ata with C-3 + MW 50 : 2000 PS
bbb, Set to 1.98ata, running at 1.80ata with C-3, no MW50: 1725 PS
bbc, Set to 1.8ata, running at 1.80ata with C-3 w/woMW50: 1800 PS

The DB and DC merely differed in the latter having more power at below rated altitude (6000m static), due to running on higher boost.



> The K-4 reached a maximum speed of 715 km/h (~445 mph), a prototype with a special prop reached the well-known 728 km/h (~452mph)



Yes, that`s correct. Max. speed of the 109K was 715 km/h using the serial production propeller, either at 1.8 or 1.98ata (the latter had extra performance below rated alt though) and tests were made with thin bladed propeller resulting 727 km/h, and swept back propeller resulting 741 km/h - but these latter props were not standardized before the war ended.

Re: 109K wooden wings, I think the idea of wooden wings to simplify production came up with the 109G already and was tested, but it was found that wooden wings do not yield a reduction in labour hours needed to produce them, so it was dropped. As for the K-6, there were wooden _mock ups_ made, but I don`t think it was meant for production, only easy-to-produce 'models' used in the design phase. Even the Tiger I had wooden mock-ups.


----------



## Morai_Milo (Feb 22, 2007)

Kurfürst said:


> That`s half-correct. The DB 601A and Aa had 1100 and 1175 PS output cleared for them at the start of the war, but that was a 1-min special overload function, appearantly for low-level flights and/or takeoff purposes.
> 
> Mike Williams has claims on his site stating otherwise, but those are fairly baseless, using selective quoting of manuals. Even French papers of captured Emils from 1939 note to 1100 HP rating. Speaking of it, the absance of Aa powered variants or the claims regarding the DB 601N are baseless as well.


Mike does? Where?

The graph shows ~1140hp @ ~4000ft. The French report only gives HP with no other relevent info, like the 1100hp was a 1 minute rating. Not really that useful as it was obtainable for only a short duration and at low atltitude.

For those who want to read the article, Spitfire Mk I versus Me 109 E

Please read reference source #116 with a comment by noted 109 expert O. Lefebvre on the DB601N.

Got German proof that 1100PS was cleared at the start of the war.


----------



## Kurfürst (Feb 22, 2007)

I don`t think you have seen the French report I am talking about. 

Hardly anyone takes Mike`s articles seriously, he lacks credibilty, and the bias in those articles is obvious. The quotation of Olivier is a classic, sometimes Olivier is quoted when fits him, sometimes not when it does not fit him, he selects between what to show and what not to show from Olivier. As for Olivier`s commens on the DB 601Aa, he repeatadly stated ever since a revised his position ever since, which is ignored of course, ie. recovered LW Emils show the Aa engine was used in them. In any case, some 1/3 of all DB 601s were Aa models according to Olivier, this means several thousend, odd to say they were not fitted to LW Emils, given that less than 200 109Es were were exported.

As I said, it`s difficult to take seriously any statement from Mike in his articles. He always wants to compare 109s on the lowest possible power, and Spitfires on the highest possible power, so he downplays the power outputs. Who cares.


----------



## Morai_Milo (Feb 22, 2007)

What, no proofs?  Why am I not surprised. I saw nothing on your 'cut and paste' site with details about the French and the 1100hp.

You are well known for your hatred of Mike but you still like to use his site for reference. You to are well known for your lack of credibility and absolute total bias when it comes to the 109. Many say even worse than what you say of Mike's credibility and bias.

You seem to care for you are always ragging on Mike. Even when Mike does update his site, you still rag on him. 

O.Lef. Jan 1 2005

_Nope Kurfurst there were simply too few Aa/Ba produced for equiping the whole Emil production as well as the other aircraft using it. Keep in mind taht about 1800 were produced including about 200 for export. Leaving just 1600 at most (if we discount those sent as spare or for equiping other a/c), which is fairly low, probably 1000 ended up being mounted in LW Emils the rest being A-1 (more than 7000 of them being produced during the same time frame). 

Since this engine was introduced early on, it could have been mounted on some E-1 as soon as 1939 and up to the very last Emil produced. But this engine cost much more than the A-1 (around 20% IIRC) for a performance gain which was not so incredible. One must never discount the economic PoV when considering the RLM at that time, this is really important so as to understand why so choices were made.

That it was mounted on LW Emil is now certain as i have traced several Aa in LW 109s *but they were a rarity compared to the most common A-1s.* So far i haven't found a trend in unit/area of operation/versions on which it was used. It seems that it was used if available that's all._


----------



## Udet (Feb 22, 2007)

Mr Milo: you seem to be well acquainted with both Kurfurst and Mr. Williams.

Had the opportunity to read on both websites as the links were provided here some time ago.

After reading on both sites, and also after reading your comments aimed at Kurfurst i can say that if "bias" -not sure about "hatred" though- is the issue then the awards goes to Mr. Williams´site. There is a section in his website that was even funny.

Mr. Kurfurst is kind of new here and by the way it´d seem he is not a frequent visitor or at least i do not get too read that much from him.

To make the long story short, it´s been a while since i got warned regarding the style displayed by Williams: he is not to be trusted. Kurfurst only came to repeat what i had heard in the past.


----------



## Soren (Feb 23, 2007)

Agreed Udet.


----------



## mad_max (Feb 23, 2007)

Some rose colored glasses here. They both are biased and one just seems to never
forget and always jabs at the other.

Just take what you can from the sites and go on. Haven't seen a site from anyone
who is just as adament about their favorite ride and not be biased in one way or another.

Most choose wisely what to quote/paste to make the favored plane look the best.

Funny thing not many can see this as most sites do this , but are blinded by their bias.

Carry on.

Regards,


----------



## Kurfürst (Feb 23, 2007)

I think the quote from Olivier puts another claim of Mike to rest. Ironic that it`s quoted by someone who wish to push forward the myths and agendas that is created on that site.

Another interesting case is the selective quoting of the V15a report in that site. Performance at 1.33 ata is shown, and it is claimed that it is running 'above the accepted German limit' (true reason is probably it is_ perhaps 2 km/h faster_ than the Spitfire there, and it causes unbearable pain for some).

Truth is, and anyone can see the V15a report on my site, the aircraft was running below the engine`s rated power, as the engine was bench tested before the trials. The report gives a corrected (higher) curve for normal power guaranteed by the manufacturer, but this is of course is ommitted from Mike`s graphs.

Similiarly, his statements on DB 601N deployment are baseless. The first DB 601N powered Emils (E-4/N) were delivered prior the Battle of Britain, not 'towards the end', though priority for receiving these engines were initially or Bf 110s, and of course the 109F that entered production in the summer would use these engines as well.


----------



## Morai_Milo (Feb 23, 2007)

Posted by Kurfurst on another board today:

_On the Generalluftzeugmeister meeting on the 22nd January 1941, the Generalstab pointed out the following figures on the number of 'active' DB 601N installed, referring to reports from the units on 1st of January, thus giving us a good picture on the number of Bf 109E-../N types in frontline serviceon the 1st of January :

in Bf 109s
Bf 109E-1 : 16 pcs, Bf 109E-3 : 1 pc, Bf 109E-4 : 54 pcs, Bf 109E-6 : 1 pc, Bf 109E-7 : 34 pcs, Bf 109E-8 : 2pcs. Bf 109F-1 : 5 pcs.

Total 112 Bf 109E with DB 601N present in service, plus 5 Bf 109F.

in Bf 110s
Bf 110C-1 : 4 pcs, Bf 110C-4 : 40 pcs, Bf 110C-5 : 12, Bf 110C-7 : 14 pcs, Bf 110D-0 : 18 pcs, Bf 110D-2 : 20 pcs, Bf 110D-3 : 8 pcs, BF 110E-1 : 176 pcs, Bf 110E-2 : 14 pcs.

Total : 306 engines, ie. 153 Bf 110s with DB 601N present in service.

in Misc. types
He 111P : 8 pcs, Do 215 : 68 pcs._

Note the date, *Jan 1941*. Kurfurst tries to infer that the 601N powered 109s were in widespread use here. Why did he not post it here? Note there was 208 F-1s built and only 5 had 601N engines in service (1/2 a staffel).

O.Lef Board Message



> I'll post production data later on, but indeed the E-7 were not all fitted with the DB601N, especially the ones coming straight out of the production lines, *the shift towards E-7/N came late 1940* when the engine was reliable enough. But early E-7s were definitely not equipped with the DB601N or at least not many of them.
> Beware of the Lieferplans, i noticed severe innacuracies compared to the production listings and RLM delivery reports.



The Lieferplan has 3437 109Es built as of Oct 31 1940. It also shows 35 109E-4/Ns built, _penny pocket_ numbers(~ 2-3 staffels but in reality only 1 staffel with losses). Note in Jan 1941 only 54 109E-4/Ns. Note also only 34 109E-7/Ns of the supposed 452 built. That is some loss rate during BoB for such an _uber_ a/c against the crappy Spits, and Hurries, that some claim!



> Truth is, and anyone can see the V15a report on my site, the aircraft was running below the engine`s rated power, as the engine was bench tested before the trials. The report gives a corrected (higher) curve for normal power guaranteed by the manufacturer, but this is of course is ommitted from Mike`s graphs.


 No mention of any flight testing, only theoretical. Mike"s graph is of the test and is within 4% of the nominal output, so only 1.5% off the guaranteed low side output of +/-2.5%. Some like to make a big deal out of this but would be typical for an operational used engine. Just to be fair (no bias), the Merlin also would be simular.

As to being selective, and biased, Kurfurst totally ignores the 12lb boost Spits. Note that during BoB, 12lb boost and 100PN fuel was used by Spitfires. Then there is the quote by Molders on his site about the 2 pitch prop which had been replaced by CS props by BoB. No mention by Kurfurst on his site of the CS prop. 



> Ironic that it`s quoted by someone who wish to push forward the myths and agendas that is created on that site.


 No Kurfurst not at all.

Unlike you Kurfurst, and a few others, as mad_max stated,


> Funny thing not many can see this as most sites do this, but are blinded by their bias.


 I read Mike's site with an open mind. I am not blinded like Kurfurst of the _uber_ German nor how perfect the Spit was, as some claim.

Udet, I am very familular with Kurfurst, or Barbi** as some call him, being exposed to his '_uber_ German, all other is crap' agenda, how he twists, manipulates, misinterprets data/info and lies for some 5-6 years. You have not seen the unkind words, to be polite, Kurfurst has said about Mike, so yes hatred. As I stated, even when Mike updates his site, correcting any errors, Kurfurst still dumps on him, and not even a thank you. No wunder Mike is not in any rush to make corrections to his huge site, is it? Sugar is better than sour grapes.

** Barbi from his old nick *Barb*arrosa *I*segrim.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 23, 2007)

Allright Morai cool it down! That goes for everyone else as well. I dont care if you have a problem with Kurfurst or Mike. This forum is not to be used to bash Mike or Kurfurst. 

If you all disagree with each you can debate it like adults and not make sissy ass comments to each other like school girls!


----------



## Kurfürst (Feb 24, 2007)

Adler,

What you see here is the typical flamebaiting followed by flaming standard of Milo, he performs these at all boards instead of discussion.

As for the arguable statements he made, they`re argueable in hope of even more flaming. There`s no need to debate such selective, accusings claims and with it aid someone who poured a lot of gasoline around and eagerly waiting for with a match in his hand, I think the moderation is perfectly capable of dealing with that to sustain the course of a interesting discussion instead of that. I hope that the moderation will be able to monitor certain personal remarks on me more closely in the future from this person.

As far as Emil production goes :







RLM Lieferplan Nr. 18 Ausgabe 2 und 3 dated 01.10.1940 and 01.11.1940 respectively, show that 29 E-5/N were delivered up the end of June 1940. Records discussions with Milch show that by early July, 1 Gruppe (Wing=3 Staffeln) of 109Es had been equipped with 601N, and 3 Gruppen of Me 110s as well. Further 35 E-4/N were delivered up to the end of October 1940. Some E-7/Ns were undoubtfully delivered up to the end of October 1940, but it`s still needs to be found out this 452 E-7/Ns mentioned by the Lieferplan are correct or not. 

Up till the end 258 E-7/N appears to have been delivered according to the Lieferplan posted above.

Certainly not 'towards the end of the battle' (they were present before the battle even started) or penny pocket numbers. The 1-min 1100/1175 PS rating for the DB 601A/Aa was cleared from the beginning of the war, as noted by French, German and even Yugoslavian manuals. 

As for the Spitfire statements, these are definietely off-topic for this thread, but to me they appear to be insufficiently backed up. Even as far as CS prop go, it`s noted that all of them had 2-pitch propellers at the start of the Battle, and a crash retrofit programe was started in the end of June, with somehwere over 1000 modified by mid-August, as noted by Spitfire : The History, Wood and Dempster etc.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 24, 2007)

Kurfürst said:


> Adler,
> 
> What you see here is the typical flamebaiting followed by flaming standard of Milo, he performs these at all boards instead of discussion.



What did I just say up there. That goes for you as well. Stop this childish bashing of each other. If you dont like each other do it privatly and dont spam this forum with your crap.

Again that goes for everyone who is taking part in this. Morai, Kurfurst, Mike *(who is not even talking in this forum at the moment, so why dont you just leave him out of it!)* You all act like School Girls. 

Next person who continues this bashing will recieve an official warning and only one will be given out.


----------



## Sgt. Pappy (Feb 26, 2007)

Very good read, Eagle. Definitely saving it as a fave on my list for reference. Good job! Hmm maybe I'll make 'The Spitfire Thread' if i find the time lol.


----------



## Hollywood (Oct 6, 2007)

I hope this isn't too "out of sinc" but I've been curious about the starting methods of the DB 600 series in the Bf 109's. I know the inerta starters were used as well as the electric type but I'm curious which was better on say the eastern front as winter closed in...... I may sound a little odd with this question but as I watched some videos of 109's "firing up" as the ground crews wound and wound on the hand cranks, it got my curiousity going...
Thanks for your help with it, this site is the best on the web in my opinion.


----------



## Ghostdancer (Oct 6, 2007)

What did I once read about the ME-109; some 33,000 of them were built and this the most of any WWII plane?

Does the Messerschmidt firm still exist in Germany?


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 6, 2007)

The Bf 109 is the most produced fighter aircraft of all times.

The most produced military aircraft of WW2 (and all times obviously) is the Il-2 Sturmovick with 36,163 produced in all varients.


----------



## Kurfürst (Oct 7, 2007)

Ghostdancer said:


> Does the Messerschmidt firm still exist in Germany?



Yup. Messerschmitt - Bölkow - Blohm (MBB). They make some very likeable helicopters, amongst other things, they are related to the Eurofigter 2000, too.

Now part of DASA I think.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 7, 2007)

They make the BO-105 which is an excellent little helicopter. We did some training with them one time and it was a blast.


----------



## Udet (Oct 8, 2007)

Just a remark with regard to the IL-2 production figure...of that total a few thousands were produced in the years after the end of the war...so if we stick to the date when WW2 ended in Europe, the Bf 109 is the most produced plane in history.


----------



## seesul (Oct 9, 2007)

Hi folks,

as I can see a lot of Bf experts posted here. Could someone help me on identification of this particular Bf109G-??? http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/willi-reschke-s-g-august-29th-1944-a-9055.html
Chris, hope you don´t mind I used your great tread...


----------



## Konigstiger205 (Oct 9, 2007)

Nice post Adler...the Bf109 is my fav aircraft too...I just hope I get the chance to see one...


----------



## Ghostdancer (Oct 9, 2007)

Years ago I was at the air museum in Mesa, Arizona which had what I understood at the time to be the only flyable Me-109. It was in the maintenance facility being worked on at that time. Are there others which are still flyable?


----------



## 16KJV11 (Oct 9, 2007)

A question to the 109 Gurus: What type of success did the 109K's have against the Mustangs?
Also, did the 109's have difficulties with the integrity of the landing gear? Was that something that earlier models suffered from and did it get corrected in later models?


----------



## Glider (Oct 9, 2007)

Ghostdancer said:


> Years ago I was at the air museum in Mesa, Arizona which had what I understood at the time to be the only flyable Me-109. It was in the maintenance facility being worked on at that time. Are there others which are still flyable?



Back in 1996 we had two in the UK. The well known Black 6 crashed with light damage but is unlikely to fly again as the owners (Government) will not take the chance.
The other I believe is now based in Germany but it was good to see the two together.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 9, 2007)

Konigstiger205 said:


> Nice post Adler...the Bf109 is my fav aircraft too...I just hope I get the chance to see one...



Should not be a problem. I have seen them all over the place. They have several of them in my area where I live and there are 2 of them flying around here in Europe. I will be going to see an Bf 109E in a few weeks in Munich along with a a Me 262 and Me 163.


----------



## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 9, 2007)

Ghostdancer said:


> Years ago I was at the air museum in Mesa, Arizona which had what I understood at the time to be the only flyable Me-109. It was in the maintenance facility being worked on at that time. Are there others which are still flyable?



There are several flying around now. There are 2 that are in flying condition in mainland Europe now. I believe there are one or 2 in England. There are several in the United States and there are a few in Canada I believe.


----------



## Glider (Oct 9, 2007)

I don't think that there are any originals with German engines in the UK at the moment.


----------



## seesul (Oct 9, 2007)

Bf109 world wide survivors, but don´t know if is it complete 
bf109 survivors


----------



## Ghostdancer (Oct 9, 2007)

16KJV11 said:


> A question to the 109 Gurus: What type of success did the 109K's have against the Mustangs?



Don't know what the figures are in general, but Erich Hartmann, the all time leading fighter ace did shoot down seven P-51's in his 109.


----------



## pbfoot (Oct 9, 2007)

I believe Der Adler is correct 2 flying in Europe and one in Canada these are the one's with Daimler engines but keeping them airborne is certainly an exspensive game . The engines are good for only a couple of hundred hours between overhauls and it's hard to find spares for them, plugs are $200 ea tires etc are all very hard to get as most of the spares were scrapped at the end of WW2. Much harder to find parts then for allied warbirds


----------



## seesul (Oct 10, 2007)

O.K. let´s go to fly- 
*G-10 with the DB engine* 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nj77mJlzrc_ and the same machine 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzgYkfq9OVw_ , btw he says that the maximum engine power is 1475 HP but this engine is set at 1300 HP as this a/c is 500 kg lighter than original one (without armament etc.)
*G-4 with DB engine *
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIY3xXxckis_
*G-2* 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y_JWhFKbuA_

Good flight!


----------



## pbfoot (Oct 10, 2007)

I think one them had a mishap and is not airworthy , here is the E4 near my home

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUejOouNqUk_


----------



## seesul (Oct 10, 2007)

pbfoot said:


> I think one them had a mishap and is not airworthy , here is the E4 near my home
> 
> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUejOouNqUk_




Yes, I think it was this G-2.


----------



## JG4_Karaya (Jan 17, 2009)

alejandro_ said:


> The G6 had a reinforced structure landing gear, extra armour and reinforced armament. This brought the weight up by 300kg, and the engine power remained the same. The aerodynamics were negative affected too. As a consequence the performance of the G6 was far below than the G2.
> 
> Regards



Thats not quite true

Apart from a different radio set, 13mm MG131 machine guns instead of the 7,92mm MG17s which were the reason for the cowling buldges, a non-retractable tailwheel, bigger wheels and thus the necessity for the kidney shaped wing bulges the G2 and G6 were identical.

Weight difference is also far smaller than the 300kg you claim

Historical weights for Bf 109 G series obtained from primary sources (GLC charts and Hanbuchs) only:

Weights for Bf 109 G-2 Fighter with DB 605 A-1.

Empty Weight: 2253 kg
Equipped weight: 2580 kg
Weapons:
Armor: 78 kg
Crew : 100 kg
Fuel weight : 298 kg
Lubricants weight: 33 kg
Munitions weight : 80 kg (30kg + 50kg)
============================
Take off weight: 3100 kg


Weights for Bf 109G-6 Fighter with DB 605 A-1 (no MW50 equipment) and recon cameras installed. 20mm cannon.

Empty Weight: 2268 kg
Equipped weight : 2679 kg
Weapons : 135 kg
Armor : 78 kg
Crew : 100 kg
Fuel : 295 kg
Oil : 33 kg
Bombs: -
Ammunition : 88 kg
MW 50 : -
---------------------------
Take off weight : 3196 kg


Weights for Bf 109G-6/R2 Recon with DB605AM and MW50 injection and recon cameras installed. 20mm cannon.

Empty Weight: 2268 kg
Equipped weight : 2740 kg
Weapons : 135 kg
Armor : 46 kg
Crew : 100 kg
Fuel : 296 kg
Oil : 33 kg
Bombs: -
Ammunition : 88 kg
MW 50 : 63 kg
---------------------------
Take off weight : 3320 kg


Weights for Bf 109G-6/R5 Recon with DB605A (no MW50 equipment) and recon cameras installed. 20mm cannon.

Empty Weight: 2266 kg
Equipped weight : 2701 kg
Weapons : 135 kg
Armor : 78 kg
Crew : 100 kg
Fuel : 296 kg
Oil : 33 kg
Bombs: -
Ammunition : 88 kg
MW 50 : -
---------------------------
Take off weight : 3218 kg


Weights for Bf 109G-6/AS Fighter with DB605ASB (no MW50 equipment). 20mm cannon.

Empty Weight: 2293 kg
Equipped weight : 2704 kg
Weapons : 135 kg
Armor : 78 kg
Crew : 100 kg
Fuel : 295 kg
Oil : 33 kg
Bombs: -
Ammunition : 88 kg
MW 50 : -
---------------------------
Take off weight : 3221 kg


Weights for Bf 109G-14/ASM Fighter with DB605ASM (MW50 equipment). 20mm cannon.

Empty Weight: 2284 kg
Equipped weight : 2679 kg
Weapons : 135 kg
Armor : 46 kg
Crew : 100 kg
Fuel : 295 kg
Oil : 46 kg
Bombs: -
Ammunition : 88 kg
MW 50 : 63 kg
---------------------------
Take off weight : 3272 kg


Weights for Bf 109G-14/U4 Fighter with DB605AM (MW50 equipment). /U4 = 30mm MK 108 cannon.

Empty Weight: 2294 kg
Equipped weight : 2724 kg
Weapons : 170 kg
Armor : 46 kg
Crew : 100 kg
Fuel : 295 kg
Oil : 46 kg
Bombs: -
Ammunition : 89 kg
MW 50 : 63 kg
---------------------------
Take off weight : 3318 kg


Weights for Bf 109G-10 Fighter with DB605DB (MW50 equipment). 20mm cannon

Empty Weight: 2318 kg
Equipped weight: 2704 kg
Weapons : 135
Armor : 46 kg
Crew weight: 100 kg
Fuel weight : 296 kg
Lubricants weight: 46 kg
Ammunitions weight : 88 kg
Bombs: -
MW50 : 63 kg
============================
Take off weight: 3297 kg


Hereby you see the Bf109G6 and G2 differed only by a megre 96kg on takeoff which hardly has an influence on top speed itself but on acceleration and even then the difference is insignificant. The only thing that really makes a difference speed-wise between the two are the small aerodynamical changes such as:

- the non-retractable tailwheel
- the cowling bulges
- the wing bulges

All in all this accounted for something between 10-15km/h of speed loss. Now given that the Bf109G2 is stated to attain a max speed of somewhere in the region of 656 - 666km/h (the latter confirmed by Soviet test performed at 1.3ata) we arrive at a top speed of 640km/h for the G6 in case of a worst case estimation (656km/h for the G2 that is).

The 625km/h topspeed that are so often claimed for the G6 stem from an RAF flight test in which the respective G6 was carrying the Rüstsatz 6 (i.e. the 20mm MG151/20 gondolas) which added up both to the aircrafts weight and its inflight drag. Coming this way its understandable that a majority of LW pilots were less than thrilled about having gondolas mounted to their 109s as they affected overall performance quite considerably (speed, climb, turn, rollrate, etc.)

Now these 640km/h figures are valid for an early 1943 built Bf109G6. Some while later in late 1943 - early 1944 the DB605A was finally cleared for its initially planned 1.42ata boost pressure providing a full 1475PS at takeoff. The extra 150 PS from this increased boost setting increased top speed of the G6 further to roughly 655km/h, so back to the same performance that the G2 had in mid 1942.


----------



## gerrywac (Jan 25, 2009)

seesul said:


> O.K. let´s go to fly-
> Messerschmitt Bf109-G2 Black 6[/url]
> 
> Good flight!



Sadly 109 G2 "Black 6" was seriously damaged during a forced landing at Duxford a few years ago on what was intended to have been its last flight before retirement to a museum.

There had been moves in place to extend the flying career of the restored aircraft but the crash effectively put an end to these.

I believe Black 6 was restored for static display and is in one of the UK museums


----------



## imalko (Mar 19, 2009)

Udet said:


> Just a remark with regard to the IL-2 production figure...of that total a few thousands were produced in the years after the end of the war...so if we stick to the date when WW2 ended in Europe, the Bf 109 is the most produced plane in history.



No, sorry, but you are wrong. It just means that Bf 109 could be only considered as most produced plane _*during WW2*_, but IL-2 remains most produced plane _*in history*_. When you say "in history" you have to stick to the total number produced and not to how many were produced during certain periods of time.

By the way Bf 109 is my favorite plane too. 8) 

Here are some pictures of Bf 109G-2 preserved in Aeronautical museum in Belgrade (Serbia):


----------



## Watanbe (Mar 20, 2009)

I love Bf-109's...it was the Spitfire, Mustang and Bf109 that got me interested in Warbirds! My tastes have since diversified but they were the first planes I knew and loved!


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZIr0bcYDqI_

There is a video of a 109E and its Battle of Britain rivals!


----------



## Snautzer01 (Mar 20, 2009)

Fluid-Dynamic Drag, 
Hoerner

Hoerner has been personally involved in testing the 109 in wind tunnels and flight test. He choose a 109 G as the subject for a drag analysis.

The more "number minded" along us will like it. It has formulas.......

i put it in a pdf for readability


----------



## Vincenzo (Mar 20, 2009)

i think that the data aren't accurate


----------



## Snautzer01 (Mar 20, 2009)

Vincenzo said:


> i think that the data aren't accurate



plse tell why?

its this book.


----------



## Vincenzo (Mar 20, 2009)

too light, slow and underpowered for a '44 gustav


----------



## alejandro_ (Aug 23, 2010)

> Mike Williams has claims on his site stating otherwise, but those are fairly baseless, using selective quoting of manuals. Even French papers of captured Emils from 1939 note to 1100 HP rating. Speaking of it, the absance of Aa powered variants or the claims regarding the DB 601N are baseless as well.



According to the book Luftwaffe: the allied intelligence files By Chris Staerck and Paul Sinnott, a Bf-109G-14 was shot down over Normandy (Fontenay Le Pensiel) in July 1944. The aircraft had been rushed to the frontline because the wiring and paintwork was not up to previous standards. Whats the story behind this aircraft? was it evacuated to the RAE?


----------



## drgondog (Aug 23, 2010)

Hoerner is an acknowledged expert in Aero theory - his book was one on my undergraduate courses and offhand I haven't dound a better balance of theoretical with practical text on lift and drag!!


----------



## Kurfürst (Aug 24, 2010)

alejandro_ said:


> According to the book Luftwaffe: the allied intelligence files By Chris Staerck and Paul Sinnott, a Bf-109G-14 was shot down over Normandy (Fontenay Le Pensiel) in July 1944. The aircraft had been rushed to the frontline because the wiring and paintwork was not up to previous standards. Whats the story behind this aircraft? was it evacuated to the RAE?



IIRC the 109 Lair has the complete report, iirc it mentions that the inner parts of the aircraft were simply coated with primer, but not painted. My guess it was a case of rationalization of production (why paint an warplan, with a lifespan of dozens of hours at best, at place where it doesnt effect functionality?)

Given the Werknummer, I believe this G-14 was originally a G-6/U2, the one with GM-1 tank - it was probably easier to utlize these for boosted 109s since the tank was already built in.

I have no idea of its further fate.


----------



## alejandro_ (Aug 24, 2010)

> IIRC the 109 Lair has the complete report, iirc it mentions that the inner parts of the aircraft were simply coated with primer, but not painted. My guess it was a case of rationalization of production (why paint an warplan, with a lifespan of dozens of hours at best, at place where it doesnt effect functionality?)



Thanks for the reply Kurfurst. I also hope you are able to update your Bf-109 site. It has very interesting information.


----------



## Kurfürst (Aug 27, 2010)

I hope so too, there's still so many material, yet so little time :/


----------

