# Luftwaffe loses



## Dac (May 24, 2006)

I'm having a debate with a friend over what allied aircraft type was responsible for the destruction of more German planes over western Europe. He claims it's either the Spitfire or the Mustang and I say it's the B-17.

Can anyone tell me which allied aircraft shot down the most Luftwaffe aircraft? If you have a link to an article that would be great also.

thanks, doug


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## syscom3 (May 25, 2006)

Definatly not the Spit nor the B17.

I think its either the P38 or P51.


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## Aggie08 (May 25, 2006)

I'd have to say -51 based on numbers and the fact that everyone was getting them. What about attack missions though, that may put the jug and lightning up there... But yeah, not the spit or 17.


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## Nonskimmer (May 25, 2006)

I know the P-38 was responsible for the most Japanese shot down in the PTO, but as for the plane that shot down the most Germans, I don't know. Good question. 

Hey Dac, long time no see.


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## Dac (May 25, 2006)

Nonskimmer said:


> I know the P-38 was responsible for the most Japanese shot down in the PTO, but as for the plane that shot down the most Germans, I don't know. Good question.
> 
> Hey Dac, long time no see.



Yah, I haven't had internet for quite a while Nonskimmer, it's nice to be back.

I think it was in a thread here last fall that I read that the B-17 shot down over 6,000 Luftwaffe aircraft and outscored the P-51 by a bit. I searched but I couldn't find it, so maybe I'm just remembering it wrong.


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## Jagdverband 44 (May 25, 2006)

P-51D and the P-47


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## Twitch (May 25, 2006)

P-51s


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## Hunter368 (May 25, 2006)

P-51 simply b/c it was exposed to more German planes. Spit and P47 had too short range. During Battle for Germany the German pilots would often wait till the Spit and P47 had to turn around to go home before engaging the bombers. That all changed when the P51 came on the scene, then the P51 could stay with the bombers all the way to the target and back home.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 25, 2006)

remember with the 6,000+ figure for the B-17 that's with massive over-claiming, often 4-5 gunners would claim the same fighter that was simply smoked or diving a bit as their own kill..........


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## Dac (May 25, 2006)

the lancaster kicks *** said:


> remember with the 6,000+ figure for the B-17 that's with massive over-claiming, often 4-5 gunners would claim the same fighter that was simply smoked or diving a bit as their own kill..........



You'd need to rely on Luftwaffe records over USAAF from the time. For the second half of 1942 and most of 1943 I don't think the P-38s and P-47s had the range to go any further than the German border so it should be fairly simple to find the number of Luftwaffe aircraft destroyed by B-17s. 

When you consider the number of .50 cal machineguns carried by each bomber and the number of aircraft on a mission there must have been alot of German fighters destroyed over time.


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## Erich (May 25, 2006)

it's ny impossible to find out how many Luftw. fighters got popped by US bomber crew gunners.

P-51's by far from Decmber 43 till war's end had the upper edge in Luftw. A/C bagged


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## Dac (May 25, 2006)

Erich said:


> it's ny impossible to find out how many Luftw. fighters got popped by US bomber crew gunners.
> 
> P-51's by far from Decmber 43 till war's end had the upper edge in Luftw. A/C bagged



Ok, thanks.


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## Gnomey (May 25, 2006)

I have heard of around 12,000 for the B-17 but that is surely with a lot of overclaiming. Of the rest I would agree with the P-51, although it is hard to know for sure.


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## lesofprimus (May 25, 2006)

Dont forget about aircraft destroyed on the ground fellas.... P-47's raked up 1,000's of kills on the ground...


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## Dogwalker (May 26, 2006)

"At 10:25 [of 5 july 1943], twenty-seven MC.202s and MC.205s of the 4o Stormo scrambled to intercept fifty-two bombers escorted by about twenty Spitfires, that were heading to bomb the airfields around Catania. The 9o Gruppo was led by Capitano Reiner, while Capitano Franco Lucchini was leading the 10o Gruppo. The 10o Gruppo consisted of the 84a Squadriglia (Lucchini, Sottotenente Francesco Palma, Sottotenente Enzo Dall'Asta and Capitano Luigi Giannella (CO of the 84a Squadriglia) flying MC.202s and Tenente Alessandro Mettimano, Sergente Maggiore Piero Buttazzi and Sergente Livio Barbera flying MC.205s), the 90a Squadriglia (Tenente Luigi Cima, Maresciallo Massimo Salvatore and Sergente Giambattista Ceoletta flying MC.202s) and 91a Squadriglia (Tenente Mario Mecatti (CO), Sottotenente Giovanni Silvestri and Sottotenente Elio Miotto). 
Giannella and Palma was a few minutes late to take-off because the ground crew were checking their weapons. 
The Italian fighters made a frontal attack over Gerbini ignoring the escorting Spitfires. Two B-17s were claimed by Salvatore and Tenente Vittorio Squarcia (73a Squadriglia) together with some Bf109s. Lucchini claimed a Spitfire while Reiner, Salvatore and Mecatti claimed a probable bomber each. Three bombers were claimed damaged by Lucchini, Giannella, Mettimano, Dall’Asta and Buttazzi. Additional damaged bombers were claimed by Reiner, Salvatore, Mecatti (who also claimed a damaged Spitfire), Sergente Ettore Chimeri (73a Squadriglia), Sergente Bruno Biagini (96a Squadriglia), Cima and Ceoletta. 
When the Italian fighters landed again at 11:55, Lucchini was missing. He had been seen by Dall’Asta attacking the bombers against heavy defensive fire and then diving into the ground east of Catania. During the alarm, some of the ground crew also reported to have seen a MC.202 falling with the canopy closed, some kilometres east of the airfield. A car from the unit tried to reach the place, but it couldn't go on due to the bombing of the area. Lucchini’s body wasn’t found until two days later. 
Taking part in this interception were also more than 100 Bf109Gs from I, II and III/JG 53 and I and II/JG 77. They claimed twelve bombers for the loss of four Bf109s including Major Johannes Steinhoff, Kommodore of JG 77, who force-landed his stricken aircraft. 
It seems that the Italian fighters had been in combat with USAAF B-17s from 99th Bomber Group, which were out to attack Gerbini. They were intercepted near Ragusa at 23,000 feet but the escorting Spitfires from 72 and 243 Squadrons intervened. The Spitfires claimed one and one damaged Bf109 while *the bombers gunner claimed 45 enemy fighters shot down!* According to American records six B-17s from the 99th BG were lost during the day."


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## Hop (May 26, 2006)

The official claims figures for the ETO are:

USAAF heavy bombers (B-17s and B-24s): 6,098

Most sources, especially the USAAF, admitted that these figures were far, far too high. Whilst fighter claims might be 2 or 3 times actual losses, bomber claims often exceeded 10 times actual losses. 

USAAF fighters in the air: 7,422
USAAF fighters on the ground: 6,796 (note that 3,703 of the ground kills come in the month of April 1945, as airfields were being abandoned)

RAF fighters in the air: 10,731 (I believe the Spitfire accounts for about 6,800 of those)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 26, 2006)

I think it was the P-51D.


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## Twitch (May 26, 2006)

The P-51 of all models accounted for 4,950 air kills and 4,131 on the ground. I found 3,916 for All P-47s in all theaters. I got the P-38 somewhere over 2,500 in the ETO and over 5,700 in the PTO.


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## lesofprimus (May 26, 2006)

And the bottom line is that none of those numbers are accurate, any of the numbers in this entire thread, and they will never truly be known... It all guesstimating and overclaiming....

But a reasonable assumption is that the P-51 series of aircraft destroyed the most aircraft in the ETO, so I will agree witht he majority here...


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## Jabberwocky (May 26, 2006)

I've always wondered about that 5000 + kills figure for the P-38 against the Japanese, so I did a little digging.

According to the Air Force Historical Research Agency all USAAF fighters (P-38, P-39, P-40 and maybe P-26 in the Phillipenes?) claimed a total of 5120 kills by fighters, against the Japanese. Of these claims, 4050 were aerial and the rest were recorded as straffing victories.

Fighter kills by theatre:

Far East Air Forces: 3008 total, of which 2709 were in the air
China-Burma-India: 1467 total, of which 857 were in the air
Pacific Ocean Area: 501 total, of which 370 were in the air
20th Airforce: 97 total, of which 80 were in the air
Alaskan theatre: 47 kills total, of which 34 were in the air

So, it seems to me that the commonly sighted number of cliams by P-38s would be overstated somewhat. Undoubtdly the P-38 was the best USAAF fighter in the theatre against Japan, but I dont think it scored more than 4500 kills in the Pacific.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 26, 2006)

Over the Pacific I promise you that more than 501 were destroyed. Just look at the Battle of Midway alone.... or Guadal Canal...


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## Dac (May 26, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Over the Pacific I promise you that more than 501 were destroyed. Just look at the Battle of Midway alone.... or Guadal Canal...



There must have been way more than 501. The Navy carried out raids at Rabaul, Truk, the Marianas and other places where it destroyed hundreds of aircraft in the air and on the ground on each mission. I'm not sure about the numbers at Guadalcanal, but Joe Foss and the rest of the Cactus airforce took a real toll on the Bettys and Zero flying out of Rabaul. Not to mention all the carrier battles around the Solomons starting with the Coral Sea.


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## Jabberwocky (May 27, 2006)

501 *USAAF* kills, not 501 *total* kills 

Obviously the USN scored far more heavily over the Pacific than the USAAF did.

But as the USN wasn't operating P-38s, it doesn't come into the discussion.


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## syscom3 (May 27, 2006)

Why would you say the USN scored more heavily than the USAAF?

Remember that carrier battles only lasted a matter of hours.

The land based forces faced battle on a daily basis.


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## Dac (May 27, 2006)

Jabberwocky said:


> 501 *USAAF* kills, not 501 *total* kills
> 
> Obviously the USN scored far more heavily over the Pacific than the USAAF did.
> 
> But as the USN wasn't operating P-38s, it doesn't come into the discussion.



Oh...that works for me then. 

I think the Hellcat alone destroyed over 5,000 Japanese aircraft.


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## PipsPriller (May 27, 2006)

The following information is drawn from the Air Force Historical Research Agency.

Europe
P-51: 4,950 air claims and 4,131 ground claims.
P-47: 3,752 air claims and 3,985 ground claims.
P-38: 2,050 air claims and 1,164 ground claims.

Pacific (only air claims)
F6F Hellcat: 5,156 
F4U Corsair: 2,140
P-38 Lightning: 1,694 
F4/FM Wildcat: 1,006
P-40 series: 706 
P-47 Thunderbolt: 697
P-51 Mustang: 296 
P-39 Airacobra: 243

The P-38 was the top scoring aircraft of the USAAF in the Pacific; but the USN/USMC outdid the USAAF by a wide margin.

Overall the top scoring Allied fighter (excluding the V.V.S.) was the F6F Hellcat.

As reagrds the RAF the best figure have been able to find is from the source 'RAF Fighter Command Victory claims Of WW2', which is incomplete. But it lists the Spitfire as the top RAF scorer with 3,470 air claims and 1,428 ground claims.

Does anyone have anything more concrete than that?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 27, 2006)

Just as I said more than 501 kills.


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## lesofprimus (May 27, 2006)

And just for the record people, and to reiterate what I said earlier, those are *Claimed* victories...


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## Dac (May 27, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> And just for the record people, and to reiterate what I said earlier, those are *Claimed* victories...



Would the USN numbers be a little more accurate? There seems to be alot of gun camera footage from Navy shootdowns over the Pacific so maybe they had the means to verify claims more reliably.


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## lesofprimus (May 27, 2006)

Possibly, but as we all know, what looks like a kill on film doesnt mean the pilot recovered said shootdown and limped back to base....


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## syscom3 (May 27, 2006)

If there was one thing that made aircraft kills in the PTO so hard to verify was the planes would crash into the sea or into the jungle often with noone around to witness it or verify it (except for naval action near the fleets).


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## lesofprimus (May 27, 2006)

And please remember, this thread is about Luftwaffe losses.......


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (May 27, 2006)

How many kills did the Luftwaffe get in say the Meschersmitt? I bet a lot, especially on the Russian front.


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## lesofprimus (May 27, 2006)

JG54 alone had over 10,000 kills.......


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## Hop (May 27, 2006)

> The following information is drawn from the Air Force Historical Research Agency.
> 
> Europe
> P-51: 4,950 air claims and 4,131 ground claims.
> ...



I suspect those figures are for the ETO and MTO combined.

The USAAF statistical digest http://permanent.access.gpo.gov/lps51153/airforcehistory/usaaf/digest/operations.htm

gives a figure of 7,422 aerial kills by USAAF fighters in Europe. (The MTO claims amount to 3,300)

Similary, the ground kills in the ETO are given as 6,796, 1,364 in the MTO.

A search of the Air Force Historical Research Agency claims lists, filtering by ETO and WW2, gives 7,451 victory credits.



> Overall the top scoring Allied fighter (excluding the V.V.S.) was the F6F Hellcat.



The Spitfire certainly seems to have recorded more claims (approx 6,800) in the ETO (and it was very active in the Med, and made some contibution in Russia and the far east.



> As reagrds the RAF the best figure have been able to find is from the source 'RAF Fighter Command Victory claims Of WW2', which is incomplete. But it lists the Spitfire as the top RAF scorer with 3,470 air claims and 1,428 ground claims.



Sounds about right, but it's important to remember that Fighter Command was supplemented by 2nd TAF in 1943, and was largely relegated to home defence (with a huge reduction in strength). 2nd TAF made up most of Britain's fighter strength in 1944 and 1945, and was heavily involved in combat.

John Foreman in The Fighter Command War Diaries lists 10,736 aerial claims by the RAF fighter forces in Europe, with the Spitfire accounting for about 6,800 of them. That excludes MTO claims and most ground claims (which usually weren't recorded)


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## Erich (May 27, 2006)

Truthfully not one air force during WW 2 has a confimred record of kills due to all the problems of idnetification, wingmen, faulty camera and films, air speed, weather ........... you name it there was always a problem.

JG 52 over 11,000 kills
JG 54 over 9,600 kills
JG 51 over 9,000 kills

on it goes, JG 27 had over 3500

Me 262 JG 7 states from too many sources over 400-450 kills but that is too high in my book, maybe 200-250


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## PipsPriller (May 27, 2006)

Hop said:


> John Foreman in The Fighter Command War Diaries lists 10,736 aerial claims by the RAF fighter forces in Europe, with the Spitfire accounting for about 6,800 of them. That excludes MTO claims and most ground claims (which usually weren't recorded)



Now that figure is interesting. First time I've seen a shootdown total for the RAF. 

Can't reconcile it though, given that the Spitfire had little chance of scoring in big number (and for that total to be correct it HAD to score in big quantity) after the BoB. Throughout 1941-44 it's range in Europe limited it to bascially France and the German border, where it only had small numbers of Luftwaffe fighter units to combat, and the occassional Kampfgruppe moved there. Mind you RAF claims over France in '41 and '42 were outrageously inflated.

It missed all the big fighter battles of late 1943 and throughout '44 (USAAF domain, particulary the P-51), which centred around the day bomber fleets. And whilst it was active over Europe from Late June '44 onwards it's range still limited it to front line action, rather than the deep penetration missions into Germany where the bulk of the Luftwaffe fighters operated from.

Does Foreman by any chance provide details of claims by month/year and or area of operation? Other than the general umbrella of Europe?


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## Dac (May 28, 2006)

Erich said:


> Truthfully not one air force during WW 2 has a confimred record of kills due to all the problems of idnetification, wingmen, faulty camera and films, air speed, weather ........... you name it there was always a problem.
> 
> JG 52 over 11,000 kills
> JG 54 over 9,600 kills
> ...



During the BoB the RAF made no effort to verify pilot claims of downed aircraft, which is why their numbers are so far off from official Luftwaffe loses.


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## Hop (May 28, 2006)

> During the BoB the RAF made no effort to verify pilot claims of downed aircraft,



They used every source they could get to try to verify kills.

Firstly, they counted crashed aircraft. Between 8th August and 30th October they counted 529 German aircraft crashed on land. 

They interogated German pilots they rescued from the sea. That identified another 97 losses.

They monitored German radio frequencies, and recorded reports of aircraft ditching in the sea. That gave them another 289 confirmed losses. 

They studied other sources, like enigma etc, that identified another 79 losses.

In total, they identified 994 actual German losses that way.

However, they were aware that many German losses might be slipping through the net. If a Luftwaffe plane crashed at sea, and it's crew weren't recovered and didn't have time to send out a distress call, or the distress call wasn't picked up, the RAF wouldn't be able to record it. If it crashed in woodland, or in a marsh or bog, or a lake, or an out of the way location, it might not be recorded. If it crashed in France it wouldn't be recorded.

In total, the Luftwaffe lost just under 1,900 aircraft during the BoB, so despite their best efforts, the British only managed to identify about half of them.



> which is why their numbers are so far off from official Luftwaffe loses.



Actually they aren't that far off. The RAF claimed 2,399 kills during the BoB (give or take a few), including losses to AAA and balloons, the Luftwaffe lost approx 1,900 aircraft (not all to the RAF, of course).


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## Hop (May 28, 2006)

> First time I've seen a shootdown total for the RAF.



It's still not a total shootdown figure from the RAF. It excludes kills by bombers, and all kills by forces operating outside Western Europe (Med, Far East etc). In short, it only includes fighters operating from the UK, France, the Low Countries and Germany.



> Can't reconcile it though, given that the Spitfire had little chance of scoring in big number (and for that total to be correct it HAD to score in big quantity) after the BoB.



Well, the Spitfires scored pretty big from mid 1944 to the end of war. The rest of the time, 6,800 fighters in 68 months is 100 a month, or an average of just over 3 a day. Given that there were periods of much higher scoring, (BoB, Normandy etc), sustained higher scoring (from the end of Normandy to the end of the war), the average probably only needs 1 or 2 kills a day for the rest of the war.



> Throughout 1941-44 it's range in Europe limited it to bascially France and the German border, where it only had small numbers of Luftwaffe fighter units to combat, and the occassional Kampfgruppe moved there.



The fighting could still get quite heavy, providing escorts for the USAAF mediums, ingress and egress cover for the USAAF heavies, Crossbow attacks etc.

Just as an example, from a fairly quiet period, the last week of December 1943:

24th December. US raids on Crossbow targets. No claims. No RAF activity.

25th December. RAF sweep. 1 Fw 200. No USAAF activity.

26th December. No activity.

27th December. No activity.

28th December. RAF rhubarb. 1 Fw 190. RAF sweep. 1 He 177. No USAAF actvity.

29th December. No activity.

30th December. USAAF attack Ludwigshafen. 10 claims (mix of 190,109,Do17, 110 etc). RAF support, 1 190, 2 109s. RAF rodeo, 1 Ju 52

31st December. USAAF attacks airfields in France. 9 enemy fighters. RAF Spitfires provide support sweeps, 4 enemy fighters.

Total for the week:
USAAF 19
RAF 11

For a busier period, see for example the RAF escort of USAAF medium bombers, likes the 3rd November raid on Schipol, which saw the escorting Spitfires claim 10 German fighters (including Kurt Brandle, 180 kill ace)

Or 17th August, the Schweinfurt/Regensburg raids. RAF Spitfire support operations (both diversionary attacks and ingress/egress sweeps) accounted for 15 German fighters, night fighter and intruder attacks claimed another 9 aircraft.

1943 was actually a busy year for the Spits in Europe. JG 26 pilots killed and seriously injured by Spitfires:
1940 37
1941 54
1942 56
1943 96
1944 66
1945 43 



> And whilst it was active over Europe from Late June '44 onwards it's range still limited it to front line action, rather than the deep penetration missions into Germany where the bulk of the Luftwaffe fighters operated from.



Spitfire IX range in 1944, equipped with a single 90 gallon drop tank, was about 1,000 miles. That will take you as far as Bremen, Frankfurt, Hanover, Wurzburg and Stutgart from the Normandy beaches. From Brussels (liberated begining of September) it will take you into modern Poland (and back, of course)

Even from bases in Devon in 1944, Spitfire XIVs were able to sweep down as far as the Swiss border with drop tanks. (and none of these figures include the rear fuselage tanks that began to be fitted to Spitfires in this period)

And even without the range to get into Germany, the Luftwaffe were losing enormous numbers of fighters in France in the summer of 1944. From 6th June to 30th June, the Luftwaffe lost 931 aircraft on operations over France, and 250 on operations over Germany.



> Does Foreman by any chance provide details of claims by month/year and or area of operation? Other than the general umbrella of Europe?



Yes, he provides a lot of details. I got the book from the library, though, so I can't look up the daily details (and it would take a long time, anyway).

But RAF Fighter Command Victory claims Of WW2, which you quoted as the source of the 3,470 claims for the Spitfire, only goes up to the end of 1943, doesn't it? Considering the enormous German losses in 1944 and 1945, it does seem to correlate to me. 

Groehler's table of losses, which Caldwell and Butler reproduce on their web page, gives German losses in the West Jan - Oct 1944 as 8,100. Reich defence accounted for another 10,700. (both to all causes)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 28, 2006)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> How many kills did the Luftwaffe get in say the Meschersmitt? I bet a lot, especially on the Russian front.



The Ost Front accounted for so many kills it is not funny. Others have allready posted some figures for the individual staffeln or Geschwadern but just check out some of the pilots like Hartmann and that says a lot.


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## Erich (May 28, 2006)

to throw a little twang into the August 17, 43 mission for day/eve ops :

US 8th AF reported an incredible amount of claims for both Schweinfurt and Regensburg : 288 kills for the bombers alone and another 19 kills by US P-47's. The Luftwaffe lost a total of 25 a/c

JG's 1, 2, 3, 26, 51, 54
NJG's 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 ands training unit 101 The Bf 110G units lost to B-17 combats were 8 on this date, none to US or RAF fighters. At night on the 17/18th of August, 2 Bf 110G's to Beufighters, several to landing accidents . .

what's my point you say ? no singular archiv or source will give you exact totals of losses or victories - not even Tony Woods and he will tell you the same thing for the Luftwaffe. You have to cross check for every single day of combat, which in some cases is almost impossible due to the fact of lost records and incomplete (Luftwaffe Geschwader sources) - twin engine especially and the NJG which is almost entirely incomplete or lost during the war and afterward


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## Erich (May 28, 2006)

let me post two more 1943/44 dates just to show how crazy the claiming system was in 43/early 44 for the bomber crews of the 8th AF . . . . and the craziness of the aerial engagements there-of

10 October 43 terrible battle over Münster:

Bombers claimed 183 Luftwaffe kills, for the losses of 30 bombers . Luftwaffe actually lost 27 fighters

14 October 43, the other Schweinfurt battle:

Bombers claimed some 186 Luftwaffe kills for losses of around 72 bombers . Luftwaffe lost 38 fighters

11 Janaury 44, Oschersleben, Halberstadt, Brunswick battle:

Bombers claimed some 228 Luftwaffe kills with 31 kills going to fighters in addition. over 60 bombers shot down. heavy rocket attacks by Bf 110G fighters destroy lead pathfinder and the 8th AF bomber missions seemed to head down stream from there .............

Luftwaffe lost 39 of it's 209 fighters engaged

a bloody day in the skies over Germany


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## lesofprimus (May 28, 2006)

> a bloody day in the skies over Germany


To say the least...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 28, 2006)

Wow interesting info there. I fly into Schweinfurt on a daily basis only and it kind of feels wiered to think that in that same space of air there was slaughter only 60 years prior.


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## Dac (May 28, 2006)

I was refering to pilot claims Hop. I think there was one day where the RAF announced it had destroyed 187 aircraft based on claims but Luftwaffe records show it only lost 37. At that time the numbers were being used for propaganda purposes, and I seem to remember reading that kills claimed at that time are still not considered to be official.


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## Hop (May 28, 2006)

> I was refering to pilot claims Hop.



So was I. The 2,399 claims are those accepted by the RAF and released to the press the same evening.



> I think there was one day where the RAF announced it had destroyed 187 aircraft based on claims but Luftwaffe records show it only lost 37.



It was 186, I believe, on the 15th September, and actual Luftwaffe losses were 56 - 60. But study claimed vs actual losses and you'll find the greatest discrepancy in big battles. Over the course of the battle, the RAF claims were much closer to actual German losses (certainly far closer than German claims; the Jagdwaffe alone claimed 2,000 single engined fighters, the RAF lost approx 1,000, many to bombers. I haven't seen a figure for the bombers claims)



> no singular archiv or source will give you exact totals of losses or victories - not even Tony Woods and he will tell you the same thing for the Luftwaffe. You have to cross check for every single day of combat, which in some cases is almost impossible due to the fact of lost records and incomplete (Luftwaffe Geschwader sources) - twin engine especially and the NJG which is almost entirely incomplete or lost during the war and afterward



Do you mean there are more Jagdwaffe claims than Tony Woods has listed? (I don't mean the accuracy of the claims, which as you say can be very hard to pin down). What I mean is if Tony Woods lists 2,000 single engine fighter claims by the Jagdwaffe during the BoB, there might actually be more claims that he hasn't found?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 28, 2006)

Either way you put it, both sides overclaimed. It has been a heated dispute since the beginning of aviation.


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## Erich (May 28, 2006)

the BoB is not my specialty at all from late 43 till wars end .......

Tony and others have said the direct copies from the Freiburg BA/MA in some cases is almost impossible to read. I have the complete nachtjagd recoreds for thewar and there are gaps throughout for every year. Claims/kills are still being studied and cross-checked and referenced, losses on the other hand seem to be more fully covered as Andreas Brekken on his noted Norwegian site has a huge data base covering Luftwaffe loss records and not just over the Scandanavian north


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## Dac (May 28, 2006)

To get back to the original question, I guess there's no definitive answer but it looks like bomber claims were probably more exagerated than fighter claims and either the Spits or the Mustang is the highest scorer in the west and not the B-17. 

And for the Luftwaffe the Bf-109 probably did the most damage in all theaters.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 28, 2006)

Well one reason for that could be the fact that on the bombers you have multiple gunners shooting at the same target and if one gets hit, they all claim the same kill.


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## PipsPriller (May 28, 2006)

Erich, could you perchance post Andreas site link. I'm not aware of it. Thanks.


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## Dogwalker (May 28, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Well one reason for that could be the fact that on the bombers you have multiple gunners shooting at the same target and if one gets hit, they all claim the same kill.


Or, since the bombers flew in boxes, and even a falling fighter cant' stop suddenly, but will continue to pass through the formation for a while, the gunners of several different bombers will believe to have shot down the same aircraft.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 28, 2006)

Yeah basically the same thing I said.


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## Erich (May 28, 2006)

since the German fighters flew with crap fuels which caused a problem with smoke, and the tactic early war was to go through the bombers and then turn on their back, bomber gunners thought they had a sure kill when the Fw 190 pilot gave it all running through the formation.

Pips you will have to go check Andreas profile at TOCH web-site run by Ruy Horta. 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/index.php?


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## PipsPriller (May 28, 2006)

Hop,

Thanks for the information from Foreman's book/s. Good grief there are five volumes in the series. Guess I'd better get busy searching them out.


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## lesofprimus (May 28, 2006)

Here is the site for Andreas' info...

http://www.ahs.no/


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## Dogwalker (May 28, 2006)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Yeah basically the same thing I said.


Completely the same. 
I misread it first.


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## Erich (May 28, 2006)

note :

the losses appearing on Andreas site come from the German archiv and can be purchased by month and or year. Andreas explains how this can be done on his site . . . .


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## PipsPriller (May 29, 2006)

Thanks.


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## Jabberwocky (May 29, 2006)

PipsPriller said:


> Now that figure is interesting. First time I've seen a shootdown total for the RAF.
> 
> Can't reconcile it though, given that the Spitfire had little chance of scoring in big number (and for that total to be correct it HAD to score in big quantity) after the BoB. Throughout 1941-44 it's range in Europe limited it to bascially France and the German border, where it only had small numbers of Luftwaffe fighter units to combat, and the occassional Kampfgruppe moved there. Mind you RAF claims over France in '41 and '42 were outrageously inflated.
> 
> ...



I have volumes 4 and 5 of Formeans books, covering June 1943 through to the end of the war. They are actually a *day by day* break down of all Fighter Command and 2 TAF claims and losses, as well as squadron re-equipments, with a summary at the end of each month and a general summary after every 6 months or so.

Foreman's conclusion, based off around 10 years of research on German and British losses, was the larger the fighter the higher the overclaiming, but in general, Fighter Command claimed around 3 kills for every 2 actual shoot downs.


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## Twitch (Jun 1, 2006)

From a different point of view remember the vast number of aircraft built diring the war. Overclaiming or not there were plenty in the air-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_aircraft_production

PS- I normally hate this wikopedia being that it's cheezy and 50% wrong info but I ain't going to my books right now to look this up.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 6, 2006)

I sometimes resort to wikipedia as well, because it is a quick source sometimes for decent info, even though most is wrong.


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## Twitch (Jun 7, 2006)

Well the 119,000 German planes produced weren't ALL downed by flak.


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## wmaxt (Jun 8, 2006)

One thing about the AAF claims as they are presented today. In 1957 a review of all claims was made and if records did not support confirmation those kills was dropped. For instance, the P-38 had at the end of the war 5734 kills awarded in the Pacific, in 1957 that was reduced to somewhere between 1.600 and 2,200 (I keep getting different numbers). One thing that affects this is the loss of records, P-38s flew from many forward strips subject to attack second many/most of the fights were over water making cooroboration by ground sources impossible, third early P-38 gun cameras were not in a good location and were usually no good for confirmation . This is true for all AAF planes except the P-51 which added a few in the ETO.

wmaxt


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## Hop (Jun 8, 2006)

The USAAF statistical digest, published in December 1945, says about 4,100 aerial kills were scored by USAAF fighters in all theatres vs Japan (Pacific, Alaska, CBI etc). Ground kills by fighters amounted to about 1,080.


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## wmaxt (Jun 9, 2006)

Hop said:


> The USAAF statistical digest, published in December 1945, says about 4,100 aerial kills were scored by USAAF fighters in all theatres vs Japan (Pacific, Alaska, CBI etc). Ground kills by fighters amounted to about 1,080.



I've seen that 5734 number a hundred times and I can't tell you where it came from - oh well. I just checked the AAF stats and the current numbers are 4701 air and 1000 ground. This includes Alaska and the 20th AF. 

The lost records and open ocean issues, greatly confused by cloud cover giving no way to visually confirm many kills/misses, also play a part but then overclaiming has an effect to, so this is a subject that will never be solved.

Another issue that the stats don't add up is losses. The AAF lists 5324 fighters lost to all causes in the ETO but the comonly used numbers add up to 9105, and another page, 8th AF Losses, shows 3695 and includes accidents etc. On this page the bomber losses for instance are broken down by bomb group and a tail number search source is included at the site (I tend to believe this is the most accurate site on 8th AF losses). I'm doing research on this now to clarify it as much as I can, part of the problem is that sometimes the MTO gets included with the ETO and skewing the stats.

wmaxt


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## Erich (Jun 10, 2006)

gents the only way you can actually get a most accurate acct. is to interview bomb group and fighter group representatives. I have done searchs through books on the 8th, 9th and 15th AF of the ETO and asked question(s) of the reps and every one of them said the losses and kills are wrong in the books .....

oh well


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## Henk (Jun 10, 2006)

That is quite difficult to get to a number. Well to check ever record of every plane ever build and to find out if it was lost or not, but that will be difficult.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 10, 2006)

Bottom line, and once again I am repeating myself...

No one knows how many aircraft went down to enemy guns, and no one will EVER know, so stop with the senseless bullsh*t........

Christ Almighty, Im sounding like a broken record....


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## Henk (Jun 10, 2006)

lesofprimus said:


> Bottom line, and once again I am repeating myself...
> 
> No one knows how many aircraft went down to enemy guns, and no one will EVER know, so stop with the senseless bullsh*t........
> 
> Christ Almighty, Im sounding like a broken record....


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## Twitch (Jun 12, 2006)

I can tell you that 4,100 number is big time bogus!! There were officially 1,184 aces in WW 2. If each man ONLY scored 5 kills that would far exceed 4,100!


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## plan_D (Jun 12, 2006)

German aces alone must make up more than 4,100.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 12, 2006)

The top 100 German aces make up more than that.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 12, 2006)

Yup..


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## Hop (Jun 12, 2006)

> I can tell you that 4,100 number is big time bogus!! There were officially 1,184 aces in WW 2. If each man ONLY scored 5 kills that would far exceed 4,100!



The 4100 is for USAAF against the Japanese only. ie it excludes all navy kills, all kills against the Germans, Italians etc.

As to it being bogus, almost certainly. The USAF list of kill credits from all wars gives closer to 4,800 kills by the USAAF against Japan, but they seem to include the AVG as well (fair enough, I suppose)

Total USAAF fighter kill claims in WW2 in aerial combat were between 15 and 16,000, iirc.


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## R Leonard (Jun 13, 2006)

I won't bother to go through all this again, but 5734 P-38 credits against the Japanese is BS. There has never, say again, NEVER, been a reliable source presented for this claim. There are at least three threads on this board covering this issue in detail.

Rich


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 13, 2006)

And it goes on and on....


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## Twitch (Jun 13, 2006)

The 1,184 number is American aces. The Japanese built 76,000+ and the Germans built 119,000+ planes so most any figures are reasonable since all those crates weren't lost in bad landings!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 13, 2006)

Yes but 119,000 and 76,000 planes were not shot down.


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