# Do 335 vs Me 262



## SoD Stitch (Sep 6, 2008)

Okay, there seems to be a definite subliminal debate going on in a number of threads (including a couple of recent ones) concerning which aircraft had the better future. One of these aircraft never actually reached combat, yet exhibited quite a bit of potential, especially in the bomber-destroyer role. The other aircraft was quite successful in this role, even though there were only ever a limited number of aircraft available at any given time. The first aircraft represented the epitome of reciprocating engine aircraft development, whereas the other exhibited unheard of potential, while still being limited by inferior materials and insufficient logistics.

Which aircraft SHOULD the Third Reich have concentrated on late in the War? An aircraft using a tried-and-true technology, yet still exhibiting spectacular performance? Or a revolutionary aircraft using revolutionary propulsion (literally), yet limited by the inferior quality of it's materiel and logistics?

I would argue that, yes, the Me 262 WAS a tremendous success; however, what the Third Reich really needed in late '44/early '45 was a reliable and effective means of destroying invading Allied bombers, hence the Do 335 (and, by extension, the Ta 152/153 series of aircraft). Unfortunately, the Me 262 was limited by the life-span of it's propulsion system, which had an MTO of approximately 25 hours (sometimes less); the Do 335 had no such limitation. Also, the training of pilots should have been much easier (and safer), as they would be dealing with a technology with which they should already have been familiar with.

Please vote as to which aircraft you think SHOULD have been a production priority in the late War struggle against the Allied bomber campaign over Germany.


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## comiso90 (Sep 6, 2008)

No contest IMO.

>>Which aircraft SHOULD the Third Reich have concentrated on late in the War?

The 262 could have been a better bomber killer/fighter much earlier if certain arrogant bozos didn't lack vision. In addition to the many performance supremacy's, the 262 had psychological advantages that cannot be under stated. Unless a piston aircraft had the high ground and the 262 was out of energy, the 262 must was a feared opponent. Kinda like a F-22 taking on a flying saucer.

The performance of the Pfeil was admirable but I'd have to see manufacturing stats to change my mind. 

Are you talking about 2000 ME 262's vs. 2000 Do 335's? Or 1000 262's vs. 3000 Do 335's? The economy of the manufacturing could decide the vote.

It's easy to say that three times as many 335's would have done the Reich more good but IMO the Pfeil would not have been a great fighter.

Bomber destroyer supreme... yes.. but swarms of P-51's would have ate it for lunch.


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## KrazyKraut (Sep 6, 2008)

Me 262 was the future. I think the average lifespan thing of the engines is a bit overrated: engines could be swapped rather easily on the 262 and average lifespan of a pilot in '45 was not much better than that of the Jumo. Engines were much less the problem than availability of proficient pilots to fly the thing.

I also doubt the Do was much easier on the newbies: The configuration and the size and weight sure were very different from what 109 pilots were used to. Compared to the 262 its airframe also had more quirks to be ironed out, at least that's what I gather from reading about it. There was a proposed mixed-propulsion version that may have been promising. But then, how much faster than the 750+something km/h could a prop fighter go? It was already bumping into aerodynamical limitations. The 262 had the potential to reach 900 km/h with the developments that were already underway and even with the same 004B engines.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 6, 2008)

262, for all the reasons above...


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## Wayne Little (Sep 6, 2008)

Have to go with the Me262...

As Comiso said the bozos didn't see it for what it was...it WAS the next step in aircraft evolution, yet it was bogged down in so much BS...


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## Erich (Sep 6, 2008)

and please rule out the Ta 152H altogether as it was designed for high interception of the Allies escort fighters not designed for bomber interception, though if had to it could.


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## Gnomey (Sep 6, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> 262, for all the reasons above...



Bingo, the same reasons for me as well.


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## SoD Stitch (Sep 6, 2008)

Wayne Little said:


> Have to go with the Me262...
> 
> As Comiso said the bozos didn't see it for what it was...it WAS the next step in aircraft evolution, yet it was bogged down in so much BS...



You're right, the 262 could've entered service AT LEAST one year earlier than it did, if only the higher-ups had had their thinking caps on. I'm sure there are a lot of reasons why it didn't (politics comes to mind), but the bottom line is, if they had more or less perfected the engine technology a year earlier (the airframe was almost perfect; IIRC, the airframe was actually more aerodynamically efficient than the P-80's), I'm sure the War would've lasted much longer than it did.


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## GrauGeist (Sep 6, 2008)

Definately the Me262 has my vote, as the Germans had jet technology on a learning curve advanced far enough that enhancements and upgrades were within arm's reach.

Ironically, Heinkel had the He280 combat ready before Messerschmitt's 262 and for a host of reasons, the 280 never reached production. Yet another saving grace for the allied effort.

If Hitler wasn't so obscessed with keeping the 262 as a bomber and allowed it to be the true fighter Willy had envisioned, there would have been a major shift in the airwar and related technology.

(And Galland wouldn't have threatened mutiny...lol)


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## <simon> (Sep 7, 2008)

262 all the way..

Dornier was fast yes but was totally outclassed but 262


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## Soren (Sep 7, 2008)

The Me-262 not doubt, in its presence it rendered all other fighters obsolete.


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## comiso90 (Sep 7, 2008)

The 262 is a vastly superior aircraft but The Pfeil would have been cheaper and easier to manufacture.

What's better.... 500 ME-262s or 2000 Do 335s?


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## Soren (Sep 7, 2008)

500 Me-262's. Why ? Because they're close to untouchable if flown by experienced pilots. 

With fighter cover the Do-335 would've been an excellent bomber destroyer, no doubt about it, but alone it simply didn't have high enough a performance to allow it to fight both the bombers and the escorts at the same time... The Me-262 on the other hand did.


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## Erich (Sep 7, 2008)

and both needed or would of needed high cover protection on taking off and landing during the day..............and enver fully received it in the case of the 262.

also a thought would be to look at fuel consumption for both a/c pretty lame and during late war very very troublesome


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## SoD Stitch (Sep 7, 2008)

Soren said:


> 500 Me-262's. Why ? Because they're close to untouchable *if flown by experienced pilots*.



Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your POV), the Third Reich did not have very many "experienced pilots". The few who survived the War to late '44/early '45 were very good, but that was probably 5% of the Luftwaffe's total pilot force in '44/'45; the other 95% were either totally new, or very lucky. What the Luftwaffe needed was an a/c that new pilots could fly effectively, without demanding too much of their attention. Yes, the Me 262 was an ace-in-the-hole, if you knew what you were doing; however, most LW pilots in late '44/early '45 didn't know what they were doing. My argument is that a "known" quantity (the Do 335) was a safer bet than an "unknown" quantity (the Me 262).


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 8, 2008)

I don't think the Do-335 would really be more economical either, it was a large and fairly complex aircraft requiring 2 rather large and expensive piston engines engines.

The jet engines may have been troublesome, but they were relatively cheap and quick to build compared to large piston engines. (even moreso with the BMW 003 as it could be built faster, had a much longer lifespan, and longer service intervals than the 004; granted the 004B was available sooner)


And on the fuel issue it's two fold: 1. shortages of actual available fuel supplies (not the case for turbine engines) and 2. the poor state of the German transportation network making it extremely difficult to get fuel where it was needed.

The Me 262 only suffered from the latter fuel supply issue. Despite being rather thirsty, turbojets had one big advantage fuel wise: they could be made to run on a wide variety of fuels without difficulty. In this case, J2 fuel was the standard, which was basicly common Diesel (iirc with some added components -snti-gelling agents- to retain it's fluidity at low temperatures) and there were still large quantities of Diesel in the German inventory at the war's end.

So the as far as fuel goes, the gets were more practical.


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## Soren (Sep 8, 2008)

SoD Stitch,

It's true that experienced pilots were far and in between in the LW by late 44 to 45, but I'd still rather have my rookies flying a/c which were over 100 mph faster than their opponents, cause then they atleast get a decent chance against the numerically superior enemy. The Do-335 didn't have the same vast advantage in performance, and so it could've been rather easily caught by the Allied escorts.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 8, 2008)

There's a Do 335. It looks like it could be lunch for a P-51. The tail section looks like it could slow it down.






And yet, it was a massive fighter. Even bigger than the P-47. Maybe it could have done some damage as a fighter.

I had one interesting idea. What if both engines caught on fire? The pilot would be in a death trap. 







An experimental nightfighter Do 335 that never saw service.


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## Soren (Sep 11, 2008)

I think a P-51 would have its hands full in a fight with a Do-335. But the speed advantage of the Do-335 simply wasn't great enough to ensure it a high enough safety when attacking the bombers, and it didn't allow it to fight two threats at once, unlike the Me-262 which performance advantage was so great (esp. at high speeds) that it could attack the bombers and then turn around to engage the escorts.


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## Erich (Sep 11, 2008)

a couple of things the Do 335 wuld of been meat with the P-541 there was just too many Allied escorts

the heavier armament of the Do was not needed in fact the four 3cm on the Me 262 was too much in the case of the night fighters, it was found the 3cm in all cases at night provided a terrible backflash glare to the pilot, one of the reason even for the reduction of the 3cm out of the He 219 by NJG 1 turning to four 2cm in the belly or two there and two in the wing roots.

the planned future for the 262 nf was to have enclosed fuel tanks into the fuselage to double, possible triple it's range


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## B-17engineer (Sep 11, 2008)

Thats an interesting model Welch....Wonder where you buy those


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## 109ROAMING (Sep 11, 2008)

> Originally posted by *B-17engineer*
> Thats an interesting model Welch....Wonder where you buy those



Is that the Dragon kit?



> Originally posted by *Erich*
> the heavier armament of the Do was not needed in fact the four 3cm on the Me 262 was too much in the case of the night fighters



Erich was their a proposed version of the Me-262b with just 2 30mm?

Their was the incident of Pierre Clostermann when he dived on a Do-335 from height in a Tempest but couldn't catch it
Was it as fast at Higher alltitude?


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## Erich (Sep 11, 2008)

recon versions had two 3cm cannon sometimes these were even removed. Kurt Welters unit experimented with several types of arms combinations but that is another story........... for later

it has not been established as fact if Pierre pursued a Do 335 or not. sights were from all the Allies making notes seeing them in the air. Most likely this is all farce and in truth other LW a/c


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## runningdog (Sep 14, 2008)

My vote is for the 262, it was one of those planes such as the Spifire, that could do it's job from the word go. 
What worries me about threads such as this is the common assumption that every thing would have gone to plan. No one knows, or it seems, cares, what the Allies would have done to counter massive quantities of these wonderplanes. From late '43 on, the Luftwaffe was like a boxer fighting for pride and praying for a lucky break. Essentially, once you are down to prayer, you're finished. 
Unless it has a very limited purpose, any counter-attack by a weakening force against a vastly more powerful opponent will end in more expenditure than gain.
When you get to this point, forget pride, sue for peace, live to fight another day. Go to the table while you still have something to bargain with...........


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 14, 2008)

Good post. But Hitler was too proud and stupid to surrender and save what was left of his country.


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## Soren (Sep 14, 2008)

By late 43 a big part of Europe was still part of Germany, so I don't agree. One of Hitlers many mistakes was ruining the plans of his generals to stop the Allies ever getting a foothold in France. The Panzers should've been there. And then there's his countless mistakes in the east.

The war was far from decided in 1943.


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## SoD Stitch (Sep 15, 2008)

Soren said:


> One of Hitlers many mistakes was ruining the plans of his generals to stop the Allies ever getting a foothold in France. The Panzers should've been there.



Yes; in fact, Rommel, who at that time was in command of the Atlantic Wall, favored preventing the Allies ever establishing a beachhead, the sensible choice. It was actually von Runstedt, idiot that he was, who wanted to let the Allies land, then take them out with armor. Here is a quote from one of my sources (_Battle Of The Bulge: Hitler's Final Gamble To Halt The Western Allies_, by David Jordan, p. 13):

"Rommel found himself in almost immediate dispute with the Commander-in Chief West, Field Marshal Gerd von Runstedt, over the way in which the coast should be defended in the event of an Allied invasion. Von Runstedt wished to allow the Allies to land before attacking them with six panzer divisions as they were establishing their beachhead. Rommel was unconvinced by this idea: he was all too aware of the effect of air attack on armored columns from his time commanding the Afrika Korps, contending that the panzers would be destroyed by bombing and naval gunfire as they headed for the beachhead. The only way of defeating an invasion, Rommel argued, was to destroy the landing forces as they came ashore."


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## runningdog (Sep 15, 2008)

Soren said:


> The war was far from decided in 1943.


OK, perhaps, quite likely, on reflection, I set the date too early, but Hitler's dependance on the 'wonderweapons' wasn't so fanatical at that point. He believed he had other options. In, I'll change it to early '44, he was being pushed back towards the ropes, once the 'breakout' occured he was on them, being attacked from both inside and outside the ring.
After that, nothing worked, except on a limited tactical scale Even then, the VI, V2, Battle of the Bulge, Me262, name what you will, each new counter-attack cost the Axis more than it harmed the Allies.
To use boxing phraseology again, Germany was no longer punching it's weight against two much more powerful opponents. One (the West) who could outreach him, and Russia who was far too strong, too close, for it to matter.
The war in Europe was over as soon as Germany expended more energy delivering a blow than it cost the Allies to absorb it. The 'wonderweapons' did nothing but cost more lives.
On the subject of Hitler himself, oh I agree, he became one of the Allies best assets. However, I doubt without his imagination that the war would have got as far as it did. Too start with he was Germany's most fearsome weapon..........


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## Soren (Sep 15, 2008)

I still don't agree, you're not being objective.

The reason the Me-262 didn't have a collosal impact was again because of a number of stupid mistakes by Hitler. The first mistake was delaying its entry into service until mid 44 while it infact was ready already in late 43. Furthermore the Me-262 was designed purely to be a fighter, Hitler however made his second big mistake here by suddenly getting the "bright" idea that it was to be used as a fighter-bomber! The Me-262 was however not suited for the role of fighter-bomber as the a/c was so clean an fast that it would quickly exceed the 1,000 km/h safety speed in a dive, rendering it useless in the role. Yet Hitler forced MTT to focus production on a fighter-bomber version (A-2) instead of the lighter faster fighter version (A-1a), and had them operate as fighter bombers for some time before finally realizing himself, in light of the huge success of the Me-262's operating as fighters, that he had made a painful mistake. First from then on did the Me-262 mainly operate as a fighter interceptor, the role it was designed and built to perform from the very beginning, and in the air it acquired itself the highest Kill/loss ratio of any a/c of the war (90% of all Me-262's destroyed were so while either landing, taking off or whilst sitting on the ground). However by then it was too little too late.

Anyway that's just the issue regarding the Me-262, Hitler made plenty of other big mistakes in the same timeframe which also contributed to Germany's final defeat. One of them was not listening to Rommel and other generals pleading him not to allow the Allies to ever set foot in France in the case of an invasion. Instead Hitler made the grave mistake of listening to Rundstedt who not only expected the invasion elsewhere, but also positioned the Panzers too far back. And then when the invasion finally came Hitler held back the panzers from quickly heading to aid the beach defenders, and this was despite his generals letting him know how vital that was, allowing the Allies to gain a foothold on th beach.

And the list of mistakes goes on and on. In short the war was far from over even in mid 44. The Germans could've prevented the Allies ever coming ashore in France, and they could even have pushed them back when they did, but Hitler amongst other screwed up every chance to do so. 

Now that having been said the Germans couldn't have won the war by 1944, but they could've brought it to a standstill. Then comes the question "for how long?", well that's anyone's guess.


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## Soren (Sep 15, 2008)

double post.


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## 109ROAMING (Sep 16, 2008)

> Originally posted by *Soren*
> The reason the Me-262 didn't have a collosal impact was again because of a number of stupid mistakes by Hitler. The first mistake was delaying its entry into service until mid 44 while it infact was ready already in late 43. Furthermore the Me-262 was designed purely to be a fighter, Hitler however made his second big mistake here by suddenly getting the "bright" idea that it was to be used as a fighter-bomber! The Me-262 was however not suited for the role of fighter-bomber as the a/c was so clean an fast that it would quickly exceed the 1,000 km/h safety speed in a dive, rendering it useless in the role. Yet Hitler forced MTT to focus production on a fighter-bomber version (A-2) instead of the lighter faster fighter version (A-1a), and had them operate as fighter bombers for some time before finally realizing himself, in light of the huge success of the Me-262's operating as fighters, that he had made a painful mistake. First from then on did the Me-262 mainly operate as a fighter interceptor, the role it was designed and built to perform from the very beginning, and in the air it acquired itself the highest Kill/loss ratio of any a/c of the war (90% of all Me-262's destroyed were so while either landing, taking off or whilst sitting on the ground). However by then it was too little too late.
> 
> Anyway that's just the issue regarding the Me-262, Hitler made plenty of other big mistakes in the same timeframe which also contributed to Germany's final defeat. One of them was not listening to Rommel and other generals pleading him not to allow the Allies to ever set foot in France in the case of an invasion. Instead Hitler made the grave mistake of listening to Rundstedt who not only expected the invasion elsewhere, but also positioned the Panzers too far back. And then when the invasion finally came Hitler held back the panzers from quickly heading to aid the beach defenders, and this was despite his generals letting him know how vital that was, allowing the Allies to gain a foothold on th beach.
> ...



Alot of good info in that post Soren!

Rundstedt plan really was stupid even if the panthers were in the right positions , RAF typhoons would of crippled them

on a doco I watched the other day an american said "when I saw those RAF typhoons flying over I thought to myself I'm sure glad they're on our side"

one question about D-day, on the movie saving private ryan on D-day when alot of americans are being gun downed on omaha why wasn't there any air support? I know there was an estimated 2000 american dead on omaha beach, is the movie incorrect or is that how it happened? why wasn't there a squadron of P-47 or P-51's assigned to taking out these positions just before the troops hit the beach? and thus save alot of americans lives?an allied stuff up?not enough planes?


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## runningdog (Sep 16, 2008)

Soren said:


> I still don't agree, you're not being objective.


We're never going to agree on this, mate. In fact, I think we're arguing two different perspectives, I'll call it quits if you will, I'm sure we'll clash again.
LoL, runningdog.


PS I meant to add that I agree with you on Hitler's role in the later part of the war.............


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## Juha (Sep 16, 2008)

Soren
Quote:"The first mistake was delaying its entry into service until mid 44 while it infact was ready already in late 43."

Powered by which engine, Jumo 004B wasn't ready in late 43?

Quote:"Yet Hitler forced MTT to focus production on a fighter-bomber version (A-2) "

And Willy didn't have any part in that decision?

Quote:"in the air it acquired itself the highest Kill/loss ratio of any a/c of the war ."

And what that magical Kill/loss ratio was?

Quote:"90% of all Me-262's destroyed were so while either landing, taking off or whilst sitting on the ground"

Have you already forgot Drgondog's message on 15th July 
"So far, for the distribution of the combined 339FG, 352FG, 355FG and 357 FG jet awards, there were 44 Me 262 Awards. Of those (~40% of all 8th AF awards) that I have looked at in the last day -

25% (12)were hit at altitude and resulted in destruction or bail out
50% (22)were hit at altitude, chased and destroyed while attempting to reach protection of airfield flak and air cover but not in landing pattern.
25% (12) were destroyed during take off or landing."

Soren, realistic picture on Me 262 can be find for ex. from Boehme's JG 7

Juha


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## Soren (Sep 16, 2008)

Try not to rely too much on Wiki Juha..



Juha said:


> Soren
> Quote:"The first mistake was delaying its entry into service until mid 44 while it infact was ready already in late 43."
> 
> Powered by which engine, Jumo 004B wasn't ready in late 43?



It was very much ready, but again Hitler delayed its journey to full scale production by temporarily cutting the budget. Had Hitler not stalled development then the vibration problems would've been solved in late 1943 (Cutting rpm from 9,000 to 8,700 rpm) and the engine could enter full scale production.



> And Willy didn't have any part in that decision?



No absolutely not, he protested against it, but if he wanted the jet to enter service it had to be made a fighter-bomber Hitler told him, and so he was forced to produce the A-2 version.



> Quote:"in the air it acquired itself the highest Kill/loss ratio of any a/c of the war ."
> 
> And what that magical Kill/loss ratio was?



Possibly 10/1 if not higher



> Have you already forgot Drgondog's message on 15th July
> "So far, for the distribution of the combined 339FG, 352FG, 355FG and 357 FG jet awards, there were 44 Me 262 Awards. Of those (~40% of all 8th AF awards) that I have looked at in the last day -
> 
> 25% (12)were hit at altitude and resulted in destruction or bail out
> ...



I haven't forgotten Bill's comment at all, but the Me-262 shot down 600+ Allied a/c in the air, so you do the math.


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## Soren (Sep 16, 2008)

runningdog said:


> We're never going to agree on this, mate. In fact, I think we're arguing two different perspectives, I'll call it quits if you will, I'm sure we'll clash again.
> LoL, runningdog.[/qoute]
> 
> Well I'd like to know which part it is you disagree with specifically.
> ...


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 16, 2008)

And there were a lot of screw-ups with the BoB, although many were not caused directly by Hitler.


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## 109ROAMING (Sep 17, 2008)

Goring aided Hitler in losing the BoB


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 17, 2008)

I forgot to add the 'not" (fixed now). That's what I had intended to imply, there were several reasons resposable for screw-ups in the BoB. (in addition to Goring, there were also other problems caused by the RLM and some of the doctrines therof)


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## drgondog (Sep 17, 2008)

Soren - I gotta ask. what is your source for 600+ allied a/c shot down?

And correspondingly the source for losses? I have the 8th AF VCB awards for air to air on 262's which was 110. There are slightly fewer for USAF 85.

What LW records are you using?


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## Erich (Sep 17, 2008)

Bill supposedly Jg 7 alone scored some 450 kills. well maybe 250 and that is it, not counting the 50 that supposedly Kommando Nowotny claimed, will not say what 10./NJG 11 claimed as it will be covered in my book(s). we have KG 51 and 54 as well

sorry to say that nearly 3/4r's of the Jg 7 kills are not covered in text only a scant in books now printed.

JG 7 must say made a dire impression on the 8th AF which then in turn went to the 15th and because of it JV 44 which claimed 50 kills but probably scored 20 was held as a unit of experten which is a joke, most pilots enver even flew the 262 except on familiarization trials on the tarmac or grass fields, a great unit to hide out until the war was over your life was secure until captured by Allied forces.

Also to the end of JG 7 we know as well they made quite the deadly impression on the Soviets with most of the missions and kills never recorded down or in fact were lost


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## drgondog (Sep 17, 2008)

Erich said:


> Bill supposedly Jg 7 alone scored some 450 kills. well maybe 250 and that is it, not counting the 50 that supposedly Kommando Nowotny claimed, will not say what 10./NJG 11 claimed as it will be covered in my book(s). we have KG 51 and 54 as well
> 
> sorry to say that nearly 3/4r's of the Jg 7 kills are not covered in text only a scant in books now printed.
> 
> ...



Erich - I was and am impressed with the 262 - always. Having researched a pretty fair amount of the LW claims to US losses in trying to pinpoint 'loss to cause' for 8th, I have been impressed by one key fact - the overclaims were close to 2:1 if Tony Woods compliation is correct. And Tony has very few awards relatively speaking fro 1945. Thus my curiosity for all sources.


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## Erich (Sep 17, 2008)

JG by Manfred Boehme, the word on JG 7 well at least so far. it is not real specific on the missions flown nor the kills, have had the original German version since first put out, some errors rectified, and I have tons of pasted notes within, still go back to it often.

the Classic pubs 4 volume set on the 262 some of it is war diary with some interesting text not all correct especailly on Kommando Welters unit. A callsic though it is.

Foreman/Harvey Me 262 war diary, a different book of text, the pics suck. some 200 claims by the LW 262 units covered in brief and the RAF/US response to the units.

an older title but still a good one : Jet Airplanes of the 3rd Reich by Smith/Creek, covers nearly all the operational LW jets including some very strange proto's and futuristic plans

Alfred Price has covered time and time again the 262/Ar 234 and other rocket/jet kills in some of his books.

I could go on and probably should as there are several German publications written over the years with differences of opinion(s) as to the number of proven kill-claims.

Roger Freemans book on the 8th covering day to day missions what has been interesting for me as I continue to search and write about the 262 vs 8th/15th AF fighters is the amount of limited coverage their-in and in fact most of the downings from February of 45 till wars end by the LW is in the shape of JG 7's jets, and is hereby noted by the US 8th AF bomber crew veterans that observed the Swallows flying through the rear to front of the Bombers. Bill you have probably noted from time to time the limited discussion that I and others have had about this very item on armyairforces.com. few of the vets responded due to the fact that nothing they could do physically to bring the jets down as they could not track the jet with their point .50's.


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## runningdog (Sep 17, 2008)

Soren said:


> runningdog said:
> 
> 
> > We're never going to agree on this, mate. In fact, I think we're arguing two different perspectives, I'll call it quits if you will, I'm sure we'll clash again.
> ...


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## Juha (Sep 17, 2008)

Hello Erich
in 1994 Price claimed that after careful study of both sides claims and losses he had came to conclucion that Me 262 pilots shot down appr. 150 a/c and lost appr. 100 Me 262s in air combat. Now I don’t claim that Price’s words are the ultimate truth, they are not that at least to me, but I doubt that he made a huge mistake. Anyway, he probably didn’t have accurate count on Soviet losses even if that is a possibility because early 90s was the time when access to Soviet military archives was easiest.

I recall that in Boehme’s G 7 book there was calculation of Me 262 claims but when I leafed my copy, the English translation, that didn’t catch my eyes but Richard T. Eger has counted from Boehme’s book that between Jan 1, 1945 and May 3, 1945 JG 7 scored 225 or 226 confirmed victories and 37 probables.

Soren
when Hitler cut Jumo's budget?

Juha


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## Erich (Sep 17, 2008)

Juha yes that why I tried to point out about JG 7 kill-claims most likely in the 250 range including or maybe not the Soviet a/c shot down, things like this are almost unknown. I think upon further study Alfred Price has tired to correct some of the mis-givings he had but it is still tough with records not available to some degree
Welters kommando shot up at least 50 at night so to add to JG 7 right now we have roughly 300 kills, this is again not counting anything from Nowotny's small band nor JV 44 nor the KG (J) units, and the EJG.

Personally for the Me 262 in the entirety I could possibly believe 350-400 claims as being plausible, nothing more

E ~


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## Soren (Sep 17, 2008)

Ok so we have 350 to 400 kills in the air for how many losses in the air ? 50 or 60 ?

IIRC the Me-262 units together claimed 600+ Allied a/c shot down.


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## Erich (Sep 17, 2008)

it's too many kills though I can believe that 600 were claimed by ALL LW jet units but confirmed ...........nope

do not think there is a standard for how many 262's were confirmed destroyed whether on ground as a ground kill or in air combat, landing, taking off or in aerial actions


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 17, 2008)

In any case Soren, your earlier statement on the kill/loss record being the best of any WWII fighter would be incorrect unless it could beat 26:1. (of the the B-239)


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## Soren (Sep 17, 2008)

Aaah that would be the Finns. 

Excluding the Finnish Brewsters, the Me-262 held the highest kill/loss ratio in the ETO.


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## Matt308 (Sep 17, 2008)

As a novice in this subject, I find this discussion most fascinating.

However, what I fail to find in the deliberations is the impact of the Swallow's Jumo turbine mean time between overhaul (MTBO) impact to 262 operations. My understanding is that the hot section of the turbine was severely limiting the MTBO to about 20hrs and this, along with maintenance training in the field, was causing a severe shortage, thus severely crippling 262 operations.

We often tend to focus upon the glory of pilot operations, but when in reality the number of hours necessary to keep those pilots peforming their missions are significantly outweighed in manhours by maintenance personnel in their support.

Any insight on this aspect of 262 effectiveness?


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## Erich (Sep 17, 2008)

reason along your lines Matt is that the 262's of all the jet units could only have enough juice to do one fly through the rear of the US/RAF bomber formations before they had to head home. there was no loiter time, besides it happened too fast

this was the case in a slightly different way for the Lw nf force operating the bird, many times just trying to find the LSNF Mosquito force was hard enough and a true gas guseline effort


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## Njaco (Sep 17, 2008)

I've also read that the MTBO was actually 10 - 15 hours until they cleared up the engine problems. Anybody know what time it was increased to and when?

Also according to Hugh Morgan and John Weal in Osprey they give this:

Approximate victories by unit:
Epr. 262 - 12
KG 51 - 8+
Kommando Nowotny - 22
II./EprJG 2 - 40
JG 7 - 500
10./NJG 11(Welter) - 48
JV 44 - 55+
KG (J)54 - 50
Total - 735+


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 17, 2008)

Early jet engines

Good info on the TBO there. (there are a couple small threads on that forum archive page, good reads the both of them)


Note that the BMW 003's much better service life is partially due to better fuel flow regulation, resulting in less wear durring spool-ups. (when the greatest wear takes place; hence why 004B's passed 100 hour tests at full power)


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 18, 2008)

There was also a recent discussion on the 004's reliabillity here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/av...tacks-if-ussr-had-been-defeated-14427-11.html


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## SoD Stitch (Sep 18, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> However, what I fail to find in the deliberations is the impact of the Swallow's Jumo turbine mean time between overhaul (MTBO) impact to 262 operations. My understanding is that the hot section of the turbine was severely limiting the MTBO to about 20hrs and this, along with maintenance training in the field, was causing a severe shortage, thus severely crippling 262 operations.



IIRC, the hot section of the turbine (and the combustion chamber, also) consisted of a baked-on aluminum coating over a steel casing; needless to say, the aluminized coating didn't last very long.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Sep 18, 2008)

Jg 7 was really good. 500 kills from the 262. 


I wonder if the FW 190 was able to damage a bomber quicker than the 262 or if the high speed of the 262 actually helped it kill more bombers (Even though you have less time to shoot.)


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## Juha (Sep 18, 2008)

Hello Erich

found the calculation on Me 262 pilots' claim but it was in Foreman/Harvey Me 262 war diary, my memory made a trick.

I gave a short look on Price's latest article in World Air Power Review No 23 and it seems that he gives no kill/loss ratio in it. IMHO 250-320 Me 262 kills are entirely possible.

Juha


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## Njaco (Sep 18, 2008)

Thanks Kool. I knew it was discussed I just couldn't remember if it discussed the fixes.

And IIRC, those JG 7 kills may have also included kills from Kmdo Notowny and others. I've gone through Tony Wood's list and cross-checked with other authors. While credit is given on one date for a unit, another unit is given credit on the same date and time. As with anything during that time, its confusing.


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## Erich (Sep 18, 2008)

a couple of things

first I would not believe most of the text written by any osprey author even if you paid me, that also includes their camo, and markings of LW A/C.

second because of the rates of closure and the 3 machine attacks by the Me 262 units one may have damaged a bomber severly enough that the pilot thought it would naturally go down and the LW pilot made a claim for destruction while a follow up pilot then finished the job and claimed the kill as his own. this could be very well why the appearance of 500 kills for JG 7 alone, which I think is double the number they actually shot down in combat.

another point of the problem is that not all 262's were given cameras and that again becuase of high speed in battle there was not always time for a fellow wingman of Kamerad to view and witness the destruction of an Allied A/C. In most cases even with the 262's blowing through the rear of a US or RAF bomber formation Allied escorts were present and not any time to form up for another turn around and attack again pass.


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## Soren (Sep 18, 2008)

What I find really disturbing is that many Me-262's took off to intercept with only half a fuel load and sometimes less. 

Btw, according to Galland by far the majority of 262's shot down were so while either trying to land or take off, or after having been unknowingly stalked/chased down to sea level and cut off. 

Also a lot of rookie Me-262 pilots choose to bail out even when the aircraft was only minorly damaged and could've been brought home.


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## Juha (Sep 18, 2008)

Hello I agree with Erich on Ospreys written by Weal, even if I like his LW fighter aces books, in those there are nice pieces of LW pilots’ memoirs but as factual history books, no. On the other hand some Ospreys are good, some bad and some between. It’s entirely question on author’s skills. And those reprinted USAAF studies like Long Reach and Twelve to One are gems, IMHO.

On the other hand Boehme’s JG 7 book seems to be well researched unit history, same to Radtke’s KG 54 book. Haven’t see Forsyth’s JV 44 books.

Soren
IMHO Price 100 air combat Me 262 losses were not far of mark. Kommando Nowotny lost appr. 6 in air combat, on 25th Feb II./KG(J) 54 lost 6 in air combat and on10th Apr JG 7 and I./KG(J) 54 lost 31 out of 76 participated. I took the losses from Price’s newest article in International Air Power Review Vol. 23 because I don’t have time to check my copy of Radtke’s book but Boehme gives JG 7 losses on that day as 13 lost and 14 missing a/c. So the Kommando Nowotny’s air to air losses and the air to air losses of the IIRC two worst days of Me 262 fighter units already sum up as 43 air to air losses. So 100 air to air losses seems entirely possible.

KK
that Brewster kill ratio is accepted claims vs real losses. I have never bothered to count the real one but because the claims incl. the 42-43 air combats over Bay of Finland during which in the light of our current knowledge there seems to be combats were Finns overclaimed badly, even if generally Finns were not notorious overclaimers, I would say that real kill ratio of FAF B-239s was somewhere between 16:1 to 9:1, just an educated guess.

Juha


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## Juha (Sep 18, 2008)

Soren
forget Galland and read Boehme's JG 7 book, you would get much better picture on Me 262.

Juha


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## Erich (Sep 18, 2008)

I agree with Juha, Gallands overall assesment was when he was in charge of the Jagdflieger and before he was regulated with coming up with his buddies for JV 44. He was told what he wanted to hear of course during late 44-early 45 there was nothing to declare as such being good for the LW or the 3rd Reich

then the mark of the traitors began against the "Fat one"


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## delcyros (Sep 18, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> However, what I fail to find in the deliberations is the impact of the Swallow's Jumo turbine mean time between overhaul (MTBO) impact to 262 operations. My understanding is that the hot section of the turbine was severely limiting the MTBO to about 20hrs and this, along with maintenance training in the field, was causing a severe shortage, thus severely crippling 262 operations.
> 
> We often tend to focus upon the glory of pilot operations, but when in reality the number of hours necessary to keep those pilots peforming their missions are significantly outweighed in manhours by maintenance personnel in their support.
> 
> Any insight on this aspect of 262 effectiveness?



The issues concerning MTO of the Jumo-004 were considerable but in no ways more grave than for the BMW-801 for the Fw-190A in France during mid / late 1941. The BMW-801 had an equal MTO interval. In many ways, the service required to put the jet engine back into operation was even less. The whole hot turbine section could be replaced in within a shorter timeframe and inspected on the ground or sent back to service maintenance depots for further investigation. I am not sure how the service work of the engines crippled Me-262 operations beyond what the fuel and general spare part situation inflicted but it would be interesting to know.

regards,


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## Njaco (Sep 18, 2008)

> first I would not believe most of the text written by any osprey author even if you paid me, that also includes their camo, and markings of LW A/C.



I've heard that before and only put it up for discussion sake.


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 18, 2008)

I think the biggest problem in the late war period in terms of the Jets was the state of the transportation system. There was no shortage of fuel stockpiles available for the jets, but that fuel was difficult to distribute in addition to replacement engines and parts. Similarly it would be difficult to rotate the engines through Junkers repair depots if they were not close to the airfields. (an additional bonus of the 003 is that it took less time to change the hot section, and this could be done without having to remove the engine from the wing)


In the case of the 004B's hot section, the turbine blades were made of either Tinadur or Cromadur which were similar to stainless steel. The combustion chambers were made of mild steel sprayed with aluminum. (I believe the aluminum was supposed to oxidized and form a ceramic coating of heat-resistant aluminum oxide, as aluminum its-self was more vulnerable to heat than steel)

The 003's annular combustion chamber was also made of mild steel.


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## Erich (Sep 18, 2008)

KK am not sure about that in the case of JG 7 as they seem to fly on every mission known for the LW prop jobs, obviously for a variety of reasons they could not get every pilot/jet up from the two existing gruppen in the JG on the day's events

E ~


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## kool kitty89 (Sep 18, 2008)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

There was a real shortage of aviation gasoline in addition to the damaged transportation network, but the jets used J2 which was basicly diesel fuel. (which there were still large supplies of at the war's end)

I'm not sure how much effect the state of the trasportation system had on the maintainence/repair though.


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## Juha (Sep 19, 2008)

Soren
because lack of time I was too blunt in my message #62.
My point is that be careful while reading Galland’s book. Like many other military leader one of purposes of his memoirs was to make his actions look good by a bit enlarging his successes and by glossing over his mistakes. Memoirs are often a bit problematic because of that phenomenon. 

Of course one must not take Boehme’s words as the ultimate truth either but it is a serious study.

Juha


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## Soren (Sep 19, 2008)

> My point is that be careful while reading Galland’s book. Like many other military leader one of purposes of his memoirs was to make his actions look good by a bit enlarging his successes and by glossing over his mistakes. Memoirs are often a bit problematic because of that phenomenon.



Now that I believe is BS. Galland didn't try to hide or excuse anything for sure, there was no point in doing so. It was a post war comment, relating to how things really were. I think it's a pretty low blow to call him a liar.

Also your loss figures for the JG 7 and JG 54 don't mention wether the a/c was shot down while trying to land etc etc or wether it was lost due to mechanical issues. Therefore you cannot conclude the figures as being air to air losses.

I doubt more than 50 Me-262's were shot down in actual air to air combat.


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## Erich (Sep 19, 2008)

so Soren what I hear you saying is that someone needs to do a study on this - air losses by the Me 262 units...........what you ask is not unheard of and can be worked out not 100% but probably at 85 % wi the records given

go back to my responses in Joe's Prop vs German jets thread, there is some useful info there.

KK alright my explanation was not meant as confusion, transportation of parts, engines whether in whole or not was not the problem, the constant moving from one field satellite or no was. many of the 262 fields were being driven more westward by the Soviets, and gruppen were becoming more and more split up due to camo reasons and the literal chaos of the day. in the case of Kommando Welter at Burg having your small band nearly vaporized at Burg did not help matters at all during a daylight B-17 raid.


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## Soren (Sep 19, 2008)

Erich do you have a ca.85% secure figure on how many Me-262's were shot down in actual air to air combat, which means not while trying to land, missing (Because that could very easily be because of mech. issues with the engines), or cut off while limping toward the airfield at low altitude ?

From what I gather around 50 Me-262's were shot down in air combat, and I counted the ones you mentioned in the Prop vs Jet thread.


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## drgondog (Sep 19, 2008)

Soren said:


> Erich do you have a ca.85% secure figure on how many Me-262's were shot down in actual air to air combat, which means not while trying to land, missing (Because that could very easily be because of mech. issues with the engines), or cut off while limping toward the airfield at low altitude ?
> 
> From what I gather around 50 Me-262's were shot down in air combat, and I counted the ones you mentioned in the Prop vs Jet thread.



Soren- if the a/c is in the air and it is shot down, it is an air to air loss. The figures I gave you were a sampling of the awards for the groups I cited and the encounter descriptions. We all know that awards for both sides were frequently overstated - but the claims at the squadron level were even worse because they were not yet evaluated by a 'higher and competent objective authority'. There is so little that we can say about the 'final award review' for LW high command in 1945. They were busy.

The circumstances were even worse relative to History because primarily after 1944, only a smattering of squadron level reports and subsequent research by historians like Dr. Prien and Price have been able to pull LW records to some form of cogent and clear analysis. And 1945 is still a big 'fog'.

When the USAAF and/or USAF lose an a/c to a mid air collision in the presence of enemy fighters it is an air loss whether they were fired upon or not. Ditto for hitting the ground when Chasing an enemy a/c. One could say 'operational loss - pilot error' but that isn't the standard! The same could be said for 'He couldn't land fast enough to escape being shot down and killed'

That is the standard I used in compiling my own 'air loss' statistics. I even counted a 355th P-47 hit over Holland, evaded but later crashed attempting to land in UK - as an 'air loss' not an 'operational loss'.

Picking '105' Me 262s AWARDED as destroyed in the air by 8th AF has at least the gun film/wingman encounter report and 9th AF VCB and USAF 85 review process to validate the award as contrast with Claim - 
And - is a higher level standard of proof than pilot memoirs and claims at LW pilot level - when no final review of witnesses or film are recorded. Ditto for Loss records which are sketchy at best.

So, you may doubt what you doubt, but perhaps you should offer your logic and facts to support your version of the 'truth'?


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## Soren (Sep 20, 2008)

Are there 105 seperate USAAF gun camera films of shooting down Me-262's Bill, is that what you're saying ? If so that's a first for me.


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## Juha (Sep 20, 2008)

Soren
well You can believe what you want. But it is difficult to assess accurately Me 262 as a fighter without reading the history of clearly the most important Me 262 fighter unit, namely JG 7.

Quote:” Now that I believe is BS. Galland didn't try to hide or excuse anything for sure, there was no point in doing so. It was a post war comment, relating to how things really were. I think it's a pretty low blow to call him a liar.”

Now look the Galland quote in your signature, what you think about its accuracy? Where are the Me 262s allocated to JG 7, KG (J)54, 10./NJG 11 and so on? What they are if not fighters? So how truthful the quote is? Does the quote really gives the realistic picture how Me 262s were allocated?

Juha


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## Soren (Sep 20, 2008)

You can believe what you want as-well Juha, as usual.

As for my signature, well tell me what's wrong with it ? The answer is 'Nothing'. What Galland said is that only fifty 262's were 'allowed to be used as fighters', by which he means NOT as fighter-bombers as Hitler wanted. Or are you trying to suggest that the JagdGeschwaders didn't contain any fighter-bombers ??? If so I suggest you research the subject just abit.


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## Juha (Sep 20, 2008)

Soren
JG 7 and KG(J) 54 flew daytime interception missions, that was their job. If that is new for you, read even some modern books on Me 262.
And do you really believe that 10./NJG 11 was a fighter bomber unit?

Juha


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## Soren (Sep 20, 2008)

Did I ever mention the NachtJagdGeschwaders ?? Nope.

So tell me Juha, in which engagement did over 50 Me-262 fighters take part ? None that I know of.

Oh and btw, KG 54 mainly flew fighter-bomber missions.

Like I said, Galland just told it how it was.


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## Juha (Sep 21, 2008)

Hello Soren
Quote;"in which engagement did over 50 Me-262 fighters take part"

As I wrote, on 10 April 45, JG 7 alone sent 55 Me 262s to intercept a huge USAAF bomber raid.

Quote:"Oh and btw, KG 54 mainly flew fighter-bomber missions"

No, as the (J) in the correct unit designation shows, it was a fighter unit. KG 51, without (J), was the fighter bomber unit.

I hope you will show a little more respect to JG 7 pilots, for ex to
Majors Ehler, Eder, Hohagen, Rudorffer, Späte, Staiger, Weissenberger, Hptms Reinert, Schall, Oblts Schuck, Waldmann, Lts Rademacher and Tegtmeier to name only few. They really were jet fighter pilots. Steinhoff was the CO of JG 7 before he was sacked.

So IMHO you should update your knowledge on Me 262 operations, the truth is a bit different from what Galland's wrote. But of course its up to You. Have a nice Sunday.

Juha


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## Soren (Sep 21, 2008)

I think you will find that the JG 7 didn't send up 55 fighters, and that a good number of the a/c were A-2a fighter bombers. (Yes the JG-7 contained A-2a fighter-bombers)

And I hope you'll show abit more respect for Galland in the future.


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## Erich (Sep 21, 2008)

I'm sorry but you are incorrect Soren, there were no a-2's in JG 7 in April of 45 delegated out to the bomber units. there were more than 55 jets in the air on April 10th, as JG 7 was not alone in the air.

remember Galland was not at the forefront of tech for JG 7 nor was he a pilot within that JG, he had nothing to do with it's operations. he was always given second/third hand info on the defense of the Reich and had to trust that info no-matter how inaaccurate or delicate it was to be.


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## Soren (Sep 21, 2008)

What about Yellow 5 Me-262 A-2 W.Nr. 110007 flown by VFF2 Anton Schoppler of II./JG 7 ?


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## Erich (Sep 21, 2008)

ah Soren II. gruppe never had their own A/C. he flew an A-1a on Feb. 14, 1945 while serving in 11./Jg 7's third gruppe and claimed to have shot down 1 B-17 as an Unteroffizier.
the same applied when he claimed a P-51D on 3rd of February 1945. 

I see that his 11th staffel should of been given red numbers while 9th had white confirmed, 10th had yellow and the 10/11th staffels traded jets as they became available to avilable pilots. Pilots flew even jets in several different numerations and did not have an assigned A/C as such in earlywar. Anton seemed to be an unknown like many of AJG 7 pilots and have found he had upwards of 7 victories to his credit.

as to designations of Jg 7 or other jet units there is a proliferation of sub types given. KG 54(J) has A-1a's in their line up confirmed, JV 44 we do know had fighter bomber sub-types which of course were not used in that role. the R$M rocket firing types the A-1b in truth is just an A-1a with wooden racks and was called such in the ranks.

EKG 1 and 2 flew several variants as well.


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## Soren (Sep 21, 2008)

I just find it hard to believe that Galland was given operational numbers which were incorrect, he afterall had to go tell Hitler about it and I'm sure more Jets active meant a happier Hitler. So I could understand if he raised the number of a/c actaully in operation for the sake of not upsetting Hitler, but lowering the figure would make no sense?


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## Erich (Sep 21, 2008)

think what you will, I am telling you this from the JG 7 operational record(s).

Galland had to give intel on his little JV 44 on a daily basis no doubt figures where enhanced to suit the suitors in the upper sphere of non-reality-Hitler and his staff...JV 44 given credit for the destruction of B-26's when they were only damaged, etc. It makes perfect sense to not hear the daily wrath of some fool still in power


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## Soren (Sep 21, 2008)

That's exactly what I was saying Erich. Hitler wouldn't be pleased to hear that only a handful of Me-262's were operational, so why lower the figure ?


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## Erich (Sep 21, 2008)

again I am wondering what G based his comments on in your siggy which is bogus


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## Soren (Sep 21, 2008)

Perhaps he was talking about the JV44 ?


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## drgondog (Sep 21, 2008)

Soren said:


> Perhaps he was talking about the JV44 ?



That would be my guess


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## Erich (Sep 21, 2008)

agreed


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