# France/Italy Armored vehicles.



## CharlesBronson (Dec 17, 2009)

A topic devoted to the less know or perhaps less sucessful tanks and armored cars of the ww2.


----------



## vikingBerserker (Dec 17, 2009)

Nice CC, looking forward to more info.


----------



## CharlesBronson (Dec 17, 2009)

Hehe, thanks, lest see if I am worthy of your spectations.


*Char 2c, the french Monster.*

The development of this massive tank began in 1917 with the foresight of the famous "1919 plan", an allied program aimed to finally break the german thick defensive lines in that year using a large scale attack spearheaded by heavy tanks and armored aeroplanes. It was the heaviest tank ever made until the upcoming of the Tiger II in late 1943. It was the first tank in the world to introduce an medium caliber gun in a fully powered revolving turret.


----------



## piet (Dec 18, 2009)

A French Panhard 178 armored car, Eastern Front, Summer of 1941.


----------



## Soren (Dec 18, 2009)

Damn, imagine seeing that french monster of a tank roll towards your trench! Yikes! Suddenly I wouldn't have felt so safe with my trusty bolt action anymore...


----------



## parsifal (Dec 18, 2009)

The connection to the Char B are obvious.....I think that in hindsight the French should ahve retained the 75 in the turret configuration, rather than opt for the sponson mount


----------



## CharlesBronson (Dec 18, 2009)

> A French Panhard 178 armored car, Eastern Front, Summer of 1941.



Nice picture, after the fall of France teh Panhard was widely used by the germans, even for railway protection.

Aditional information about the fate of the Chars 2c, from Trackstory "Juin 1940 the imposible revival"


----------



## vikingBerserker (Dec 19, 2009)

That's sad, I always thought it was one hell of a tank.


----------



## Shortround6 (Dec 19, 2009)

vikingBerserker said:


> That's sad, I always thought it was one hell of a tank.



Hell of a tank for 1919, death trap in 1940.

It might have been 70 tons but it was so big the armor was more like 30mm in many spots. Slow, hard to steer (length to width ratio) and the biggest target on the battle field.


----------



## Soren (Dec 19, 2009)

Shortround6 said:


> Hell of a tank for 1919, death trap in 1940.
> 
> It might have been 70 tons but it was so big the armor was more like 30mm in many spots. Slow, hard to steer (length to width ratio) and the biggest target on the battle field.



True, but an impressive sight nonetheless. 

The French weren't bad at building tanks at all, their designs were actually top notch at the beginning of the war compared to the tanks of other countries.


----------



## parsifal (Dec 19, 2009)

In terms of armour protection they were probably the best in the world at the time. However they suffered from a number of inherent design faults that are generally well known. The lack of range and mobility (power to weight) are probably the worst elements of their design faults. The single man turrets, the poor design of the cupola, and the lack of radios were all factors in their defeat.

But the most damning reason for their defeat in 1940 was their lack of an adequate doctrine. The Germans knew that they had to keep their armoured units concentrated, and they also knew that the mobility was the key to winning their battle. 

If the French had adopted Weygands "quadrillage" defence system from the beginning of the war, and had trained and developed fully armoured corps to counter attack at the german Schwerepunkt the war would have ended in 1940. German tanks were not superior in 1940, but their training and their doctrine was. If only the Frecnh had not lanquished , basking in their 1918 vistory, things may have ended so differently


----------



## Soren (Dec 19, 2009)

Agreed.


----------



## Arsenal VG-33 (Dec 20, 2009)

parsifal said:


> If only the Frecnh had not lanquished , basking in their 1918 vistory, things may have ended so differently



In all the sources I have, I haven't seen any evidence of this at all. The basking on the 1918 victory lasted perhaps a year before the reality of the heavy costs of the war fell on the people. From recovery, low birth rate, economic depression, political upheaval resulting in civil unrest, and near civil war in at least a couple of cases. The real threat to France was realized when she faced isolation and perhaps even economic sanctions for wanting to evict the Germans from the Rhineland in 1936. With the possibilty of abandonment from her allies, France increased defense production. Certainly exciting times, mixed with trepidation and perhaps a little over confidence in the belief of another German single thrust move, but I cannot find anything indicating some 20 years of languishing and basking in the 1918 victory.

As for that monster, Char 2C, the Germans captured at least one of them, and it is believed that it survived the war and was taken by the Russians. It is rumored to be in the unseen parts of several armor museums in Russia. I've personally seen the Char B at Saumur where it is kept in running condition. They also have a Souma and several other WW 2 French tanks in running condition. There is also a Char B sitting in the Bovington tank museum, where it is is bad shape but restorable. 

My personal favorite is the Renault UE Chenillette, which had a tracked trailer, and also towed the 75mm cannon. Neat little bugger. There's actually one in a museum not from where I currently live, and in decent shape too.

Renault UE Chenillette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## CharlesBronson (Dec 20, 2009)

You are quite right about the political landscape there VG but some basic desigh failure, like the single man turret, are hardly linked with politics, but more to wrong doctrine.


And talking about failed, check this one.


*Carro Armato M-11/39.*






In 1933 it was clear the the tankettes were not the answer for replacing the overaging FIAT 3000s and a new tank was commisioned. After experimenting about a bigger and heavier 12 tons tank based on the CV.33 design, a lighter 8 tons tank version was chosen. In 1935 new tank appeared with its 37mm L40 gun with a limited traverse of 15º on the left and on the right and 12º on top and bottom thanks to an hydraulic device on the horizontal plane. The gunner seated on the right and the driver, lightly reared, on the left while the commander manouvered the turret two Breda 8mm MGs. The engine, still of commercial version, transmitted its move through a gear box to the forward sprocket. The drive was possible because of an epicyclic lever and the brakes.

Ground tests demonstrated that the vehicle needed improvements on the engine and transmission systems; a new rounded turret was designed to speed and make easier the production and so, in 1937, the new tank, designed "Carro di rottura" (breaktrough tank) was requested in a first (and only) batch of 100 exemplaries.
Lack of materials delayed the production until 1939 when it begun to be delivered with the signature M. 11/39 (which states for "Medium tank weighting 11 tons and accepted in service in 1939 ): this vehicle was taller, heavier (about 10 tons) and hard to explain the tank was lacking the radio (that instead was mounted on the prototype).
In May 1940 24 M. 11/39s were sent in A.O.I. ("Africa Orientale Italiana", Italian Eastern Africa) grouped in a "Compagnia speciale carri M.", special M. tanks company to reinforce the Italian positions in the colony. On the start of the conflict field commands required new tank reinforcements because the light CV. 33s were unuseful, as demonstrated in first encounters with British armored units. 70 tanks were placed at disposal of the 4th Tank Regiment and landed in Bengazi in July of the same year.

When first employed against the English the M.11/39 got enough succes while being used in infantry support role during the first advance to Sidi Barrani. Similarly to the L. 33s this tanks were mechanically unreliable: in September when the Armored Groups were re-created the I Battailon of the 4th Tank Regiment's 31 tanks only nine were still in service. The first engagements with the british tanks immediatly proved the inferiority and weakness of the M.11 in both gun and armor thickness and shape, without speaking about the weak trasmission/suspension system.


The disaster was near: when the British launched their offensive in December 1940 the II Bataillon (2 M.11 companies) detached to Maletti Group was surprised near Nibeiwa and 22 of its tanks were knocked out. The I Battailon, while being part of the new Special Armored Brigade with a M.13 Battaillon and 2 L.33 battailons, was able to take only a minor part in the fight because the most part of its tanks were in Tobruk for repairs. 
The following defeat in early 1941 took the destruction or the capture of almost all the M.11/39s: because of their unreliability and lack of any recovery vehicle the immobilized vehicles were abandoned in the enemy hands: the Australians equipped an entire regiment with the captured M.39 but they were soon put out of service because of their faults. The remnants six tanks were used in Italy for training purposes and were officially put out of service after the armistice of September 1943.


----------



## CharlesBronson (Dec 20, 2009)

*Characteristics M-11/39:*

Weigth: 10,970 tons
Crew: 3
Weapons: Vickers-Terni 37mm L40 gun with 84 rounds, 2 8mm MG Breda model 38 with 2800 rounds.
Armor: hull 8-30mm (nose 30mm, sloped plate 14mm, front 30mm, sides 14-15mm, top 8mm, bottom 7mm, rear 14mm); turret 7-30mm (front 30mm, sides and rear 14mm, top 7mm).
Engine: 43hp diesel FIAT Spa 8T, 8-cylinders on V, liquid cooled
Speed: 34Km/h
Autonomy: 200Km
Length (max)4,73m
Width: 2,18m
Height: 2,25m

Plate from "Italian Armored Vehicles of WW2" Squadron Armor. Gallery of light and Medium tanks, note the 20 mm AT rifle armed tankette.


----------



## CharlesBronson (Dec 30, 2009)

*The Char B1:*

This tank was France s main battle tank at the time of may 1940. It clearly exemplify the virtues and vices of all french armor in ww2, an excellent, innovative design with several technical values, delicatedly manufactured, powerful weapons and heavy armor, however the bad crew layout and duties made it a nightmare of command and control in the battlefield.

( AFV Profile, French heavy tanks, 1971)


----------



## CharlesBronson (Dec 30, 2009)

Close up to the cast steel APX ( Atelier PuteauX) turret, the Char B1 47mm gun had a muzzle velocity of 630 mps, enough to deal with every german panzer of the period.

Note the periscopic binocular gunsight. and the coaxial Reibel MG 7.5 mm emplacemet, the MG could be used freely in its mounting, it had no remote firing but a normal handgrip.


----------



## vikingBerserker (Dec 30, 2009)

Very cool! Always loved that tank.


----------



## Juha (Dec 31, 2009)

Panhard 178 armored car, on which Piet posted a photo, was a good one. Germans widely used them, IIRC for ex. the armoured recce battalion of 7. PzD was equipped with them during Oper. Barbarossa in 1941.

Juha


----------



## CharlesBronson (Dec 31, 2009)

> Panhard 178 armored car, on which Piet posted a photo, was a good one. Germans widely used them, IIRC for ex. the armoured recce battalion of 7. PzD was equipped with them during Oper. Barbarossa in 1941.



I have an excellent color footage of the Panhard "panzerspähwagen" in german service, is included in the DVD "Mit der kamera an der Ostfront", an gift from Papa Noel, local variant of Santa Claus.  , they even used it as railway vehicle.



> Very cool! Always loved that tank



Thanks, some data on the improved 1940 variant.

*Char B1 ter:*

Aparently the B1 ter as a design to improve the difficulty manning in the B1 bis, but still a more cheaper option to the B2 wich was to be armed with a fully revolving 75 mm plus 2mgs armed turret.
The B2 should had a better characteritics and to cure some of the vices of the french design, however it was seen as an expensive vehicle, the option to improve the existent B1 bis was choosed instead.






B1 ter development began in 1936, the Chief inspector of the french armored forces, General Velpry, insisted in a improved armor for this tank. That was materialized in a well sloped 75mm frontal plate ( wich included a combined riveted-welded construction) and a side 60mm rolled plate with a "V" shape, protecting the vital parts of the tank. Renault provided a engine 15 % more powerful to cope with the increased weight.

Finally, at last, in this design the driver was liberated from the task to fire the hull howitzer, however it still had a important part aiming it because the azimuth was extremely limited. The B1 ter transmision was a simple differential , a more easy and less complex tha the earlier Naeder double differential. In all and despite to have the devilish single place turret the Ter was a more simple, valuable and workable design than its predesessors.

150 were ordered in 1938, unfortunately for France, economical cutbacks caused than only 3 prototypes were available in may 1940, those used for testing in the Saint Nazaire garrison.

*Characteristics:*

Manufacturer: Atelier de Construction de Rueil (ARL) , Forges et Chantiers de la Mediterraine (FCM)

Crew: 4, chief/loader/gunner, loader/hull gunner, driver, radio operator.

Hull lenght: 6.35m

Hull gun azimuth: 6º left and right

Width: 2,73 m

Height: 2,83 m

track width : 500 mm

Suspension: coil springs

Weigh in battle order: 36600 kg.

Engine: Renault 6 cilinders gasoline water cooled, 350 hp.

Speed road: 30 km/h 

Armor: between 30 to 75mm.

Armament: SA 35 de 47mm in turret ( muzzle velocity 662 mps) with 60 rounds, 75mm howitzer ( muzzle velocity 220mps) with 80 rounds, Chatereault 7,5 mm machinegun with 600 shots.


----------



## DBII (Dec 31, 2009)

I have always been interested in the tanks and tanketts from between the wars. New theories and strange designs. Not to different than the airplanes.

DBII


----------



## CharlesBronson (Dec 31, 2009)

There were plenty "tankettes" in both the French and Italian armies, quite popular before the war but once started it was painfully clear that they werent suited for combat frontline service.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWikiIwjhLM_


----------



## CharlesBronson (Jan 3, 2010)

Color footage of the Panhard 178 ( panzerspäwagen 204 f) in german service.


----------



## CharlesBronson (Feb 4, 2010)

Color Plates on char B1 variants.


----------



## parsifal (Feb 5, 2010)

Ive seen photos of the flammpanzer Char Bs with a caption that says they fought at Normandy. Any truth to that?


----------



## CharlesBronson (Feb 5, 2010)

Is possible, the germans used extensively captured tank attached to infantry divisions to bolster the defences in the atlantikwall, so far I ve seen images of 1944s Fkammpanzer B1 destroyed in combat in Holland and Yugoeslavia.


----------



## vikingBerserker (Feb 6, 2010)

Wow, those are some great pics CB!


----------



## CharlesBronson (Feb 6, 2010)

Yea, the flammemwerfer was always an spectacular weapon, but quite short range specially the german flamethrowers.


----------



## CharlesBronson (Apr 30, 2010)

This almost fell in the "rare panzers" category but italian.

*Carro Armato Celere Sahariano.*

Being impressed with the British cruiser tanks, the Italians attempted to make a copy for use in North Africa. _The Carro Armato Celere Sahariano_ ( Fast Saharian tank) was clearly inspired by the Crusader, it had sloped armor and the 47 mm high velocity gun installed in a M-15/42 modified turret. That improved 40 calibres gun had an muzzle velocity of 815 mps.






The hull employed a torsion bar suspension for improved cross country abilities. The tank can reach 60 km/h powered by a 270 hp Fiat diesel engine.
The war in Afrika ended for before this AFV could be put on service and the project was cancelled. A 75mm main gun was proposed for production models.


----------



## CharlesBronson (May 9, 2010)

Interesting french twin turret heavy tank design I ve found in wakipedia. This super-heavy armored vehicle had some resemblance to the russian T-100 and SMK.


*The FCM F1 *was a French super-heavy tank developed during the Interbellum by the Forges et Chantiers de la Méditerranée company. Twelve were ordered in 1940 to replace the Char 2C, but France was defeated before construction could begin, a wooden mock-up being all that was finished. The FCM F1 was large and elongated, and had two turrets: one in front and one in the back, with a single high-velocity gun in each turret. The rear turret was higher so it could shoot over the first one. The vehicle was intended to be heavily armoured. Its size and protection level made it early 1940 with about 140 tons the heaviest tank actually ordered. Despite two engines its speed would have been slow. The primary purpose of the tank was to breach German fortification lines, not to fight enemy tanks. The development path of the FCM F1 was extremely complex, due to the existence of a number of parallel super-heavy tank projects with overlapping design goals, the specifications of which were regularly changed. For each project again several companies submitted one or more competing proposals.

The first designs featured a 37 mm gun. When a better armament was demanded, it was understood through a study by the Section de l'Armement et des Études Techniques (SAET) on 5 April 1937 that the tank would still weigh a twenty tons, while another tank, the Char G1, was already in development in this weight class. As a result in February 1938 the specifications were again radically changed and now asked for a superheavy tank with a 75 mm gun in a turret; no weight limits were imposed. The new specifications were closest to the original FCM proposal of sixty tons and so the French Supreme Command decided on 6 April 1938 to grant FCM a development contract for a Char F1. It was realised however that this project could be no more than an intermediate step in heavy tank design and already a special commission had been formed in February, headed by the inspector-general of tanks, Julien François René Martin, to further study the problem of overcoming the new defences of the Westwall being at the time constructed on the western German border.


----------

