# Macchi MC200 V Gloster F.5/34



## merlin (Nov 10, 2009)

A poll with a 'twist' - while both aircraft have similar sized radial engines - only one goes into production!

So assuming that the Gloster fighter was in RAF service in the Med./North Africa which is likely to come out on top?

Macchi MC200

or 

Gloster F.5/34

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macchi_C.200

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_F.5/34


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## tomo pauk (Nov 11, 2009)

It's really a close call. 

(not affecting the poll: )
The Gloster with Twin Wasp would eat Zeros for breakfast, had Aussies decided to build those. Sort of 'Colonial fighter' thing, being faster then Hurricane with same power.


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## Civettone (Nov 12, 2009)

Close call indeed. The Macchi may have been more manoeuvrable (though that is by no means certain) but the Gloster would have had better radio, armament and (after a while) armour. 

So slight edge for the Gloster. 

Kris


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## teiresiasx (Nov 12, 2009)

The speed performance of the Gloster (316 mph) seems too optimistic. With the same engine (Mercury IX) and despite being smaller and far lighter (4599 lb vs 5400), the Bristol 146 fighter could achieve a top speed of only 287 mph, which sounds reasonable to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Type_146#refBristol1978


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## MacArther (Nov 12, 2009)

teiresiasx said:


> The speed performance of the Gloster (316 mph) seems too optimistic. With the same engine (Mercury IX) and despite being smaller and far lighter (4599 lb vs 5400), the Bristol 146 fighter could achieve a top speed of only 287 mph, which sounds reasonable to me.
> 
> Bristol Type 146 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Could be, but the speed listed for both or either could be the speed given in a slight or high dive. Also, one could possibly assume that the Gloster had better aerodynamics to make up for the heavier weight (a stretch, but possible). 

Personally, I'd take the Gloster over the MC200, although that has more to do with more guns at my disposal (probably more firing time/ammo as well), as well as possibly being more damage resistant that the MC200 (I think I saw something about Durilium, which is pretty hard to beat up if memory serves).


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## merlin (Nov 12, 2009)

teiresiasx said:


> The speed performance of the Gloster (316 mph) seems too optimistic. With the same engine (Mercury IX) and despite being smaller and far lighter (4599 lb vs 5400), the Bristol 146 fighter could achieve a top speed of only 287 mph, which sounds reasonable to me.
> 
> Bristol Type 146 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The Speed of the Gloster aircraft isn't an estimate, it is as a result of prototype flight testing; moreover it is comparable with the speed of the Macchi fighter - with a similar sized engine.
Curious the low speed of the '146'!


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## Shortround6 (Nov 12, 2009)

Aerodynamics was by no means the science it is now. HIgh speed and/or full sized wind tunnels were few and far between. 
I beleive the Brewster Buffalo picked up around 20mph after a visit to the full size tunnel at Langley, the only one in the US at the time and the P-39 was suffled of to Langley in almost indecent haste after just a few weeks of test flying. 

The British may not have a had a full sized wind tunnel at the time making each desgn more of an inspired guess than an acurately caculated prediction. 

Berhaps a couple of dozen hours in such a tunnel could have gained 15-20mph for the Bristol.


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## merlin (Nov 14, 2009)

tomo pauk said:


> It's really a close call.
> 
> (not affecting the poll: )
> The Gloster with Twin Wasp would eat Zeros for breakfast, had Aussies decided to build those. Sort of 'Colonial fighter' thing, being faster then Hurricane with same power.



Yes I agree, with the latter comment, have posted elsewhere. Interesting about the engine - during the late thirties the h.p. output steadily increased.


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## snafud1 (Nov 14, 2009)

Shortround6 said:


> Aerodynamics was by no means the science it is now. HIgh speed and/or full sized wind tunnels were few and far between.
> I beleive the Brewster Buffalo picked up around 20mph after a visit to the full size tunnel at Langley, the only one in the US at the time and the P-39 was suffled of to Langley in almost indecent haste after just a few weeks of test flying.
> 
> The British may not have a had a full sized wind tunnel at the time making each desgn more of an inspired guess than an acurately caculated prediction.
> ...



Totally disagree. Aerodynamics got a big boost from the scientific community in the early '30's. NACA(now NASA) improved radial engine cowling design for aerodynamic airflow around the engine and fuselage in 1933. The first production plane to use that design was the Lockheed Vega. This just one example of what scientists and Aero-engineers were working on in the thirties. granted, wind tunnel testing was just getting started but aerodynamic studies were wel underway in the '30's.


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## Civettone (Nov 15, 2009)

True. I especially know it was like that in the US. I was also thinking of the P-35 cowling. But I suppose Britain cannot have been too far behind. Same for Germany. And Italy ? I don't know but they were always rather good in racing aircraft ...


Kris


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## Shortround6 (Nov 15, 2009)

snafud1 said:


> Totally disagree. Aerodynamics got a big boost from the scientific community in the early '30's. NACA(now NASA) improved radial engine cowling design for aerodynamic airflow around the engine and fuselage in 1933. The first production plane to use that design was the Lockheed Vega. This just one example of what scientists and Aero-engineers were working on in the thirties. granted, wind tunnel testing was just getting started but aerodynamic studies were wel underway in the '30's.



Disagree with what? that we know more now, in 2009, than they did in either 1930 or in 1939? Or that they knew a lot more in 1940 than they did in 1930?

As for the NACA cowling, yes it was a tremendous improvement when introduced in the early thirties but it wasn't introduced in it's final form was it?
Early versions used a fixed area exit slot between the rear of the cowl and fuselage. This was fine at the 180-200mph speeds of the early thirites but an exit slot that provided for good engine cooling at max climb allowed way to much airflow (and drag) at higher speeds ,like 250-300mph and above in level flight. This is why cowl flaps were developed, to be able to adjust the airflow and drag for various flight conditions. 

Without full sized and/or high speed tunnels a number of other details could not be tested without extensive flight tests. things like airscoops, windscreen angles, landing gear doors and radio antennas did not model well in small scale tunnels or in low speed tunnels.


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## snafud1 (Nov 15, 2009)

OK. They did what they could with what they had then. The way you come across is that they were not considering aerodynamics then. You can't put todays standards on something that wasn't around then. The focus on this pol is which (iyo) was better from THAT time.


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## teiresiasx (Nov 16, 2009)

Civettone said:


> True. I especially know it was like that in the US. I was also thinking of the P-35 cowling. But I suppose Britain cannot have been too far behind. Same for Germany. And Italy ? I don't know but they were always rather good in racing aircraft ...
> 
> 
> Kris



As far as I know, Italy had a state-owned wind tunnel in Guidonia (picture here Guidonia (Roma): Storia, l'aeroporto Barbieri), while the first private-owned wind tunnel was built in 1928 by Piaggio in Finale Ligure: it was called "Hangar Sperimentale" ("Experimental Hangar") and nowadays it risks to be demolished (despite its historical importance: patrimonio sos: in difesa dei beni culturali e ambientali ).


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## Civettone (Nov 16, 2009)

Interesting.

I admit that I don't know that much about the history of wind tunnels. I can imagine that the first wind tunnels were quite rudimentary. Was the Guidonia wind tunnel also the most advanced they had during the war ? 
Is it a coincidence that the main test centre was also in Guidonia?

Kris


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## teiresiasx (Nov 16, 2009)

I am not a wind tunnels expert. The Polytechnic University of Turin inaugurated its own wind tunnel August 1918: at this university G. Gabrielli (the "father" of G 12, G 50, G 55, G 91, G 222) graduated July 1925. The wind tunnel in Guidonia existed since the Twenties, yet a futuristic wind tunnel had been built in Rome in 1914 and generated a 200 km/h wind. The Research Center of the Royal Italian Air Force (DSSE, Direzione Superiore Studi ed Esperienze) was created in Guidonia in 1935, because there already existed many advanced facilities. Eventually Guidonia had three wind tunnels (one hypersonic and a special one capable of testing bombs, torpedos, trains, ships, aircraft and even parts of them), a 500 meter long hydrodynamic pool for flyingboat tests, a void simulator, a centrifuge and other facilities for aeronautic (later astronautic) medicine etc. The Italians claim their equipment in Guidonia was among the most advanced in the world, and that should explain why Italy held 33 out of 84 aviation world records in 1939, at the eve of the war.

Direzione Superiore Studi ed Esperienze - Wikipedia
varia et alia
http://w3.uniroma1.it/sdia//OrdineDegliStudi2008-2009.pdf
http://www2.polito.it/strutture/cem..._STO_INGE/MARCHIS_Laboratorio_Aeronautica.pdf


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## Civettone (Nov 16, 2009)

Impressive. 

But what do you mean by eventually? When?

Kris


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## teiresiasx (Nov 17, 2009)

"Eventually" means "early Forties". The facilities were destroyed in 1943 and abandoned.


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## Civettone (Nov 17, 2009)

This little niitbit is in fact quite important information for all those (including me) who like to indulge ourselves in what-if scenarios for the Italian military. It seems that the Italians were somewhat catching up in terms of technology. Only the industry sector itself needed to be reorganized. But that was a political matter.

Kris


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## teiresiasx (Nov 17, 2009)

According to MacGregor Knox (Hitler's Italian Allies, 2000, Chapter 2: Society, politics, regime, industry), even during the war the Fascism favoured the long-term investments in infrastructures, plants, heavy industry and autarchic production of synthetic commodities, a policy which was detrimental to the short-term development of firepower. In other words: more plants, less planes. Italy allocated to military expenditures no more than 21% (1943) of her GNP, while Germany was at 70%, USSR 61%, UK 55%, Japan 43% and USA 42%. This policy would have produced the post-war "economic miracle" of the Fifties.


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## Civettone (Nov 18, 2009)

That seems like a book I would like to get my hands on 

What are the other chapters about?
Kris


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## teiresiasx (Nov 18, 2009)

Introduction: defeat and humiliation
1. The last war of Fascist Italy
2. Society, politics, regime, industry
3. Men and machines: armed forces and modern war
4. Strategy
5. Operations
6. Tactics
Conclusion: the weight of the past

The book is quite agile (200 pages). It is a good introduction to the matter, but the analysis is somehow too "traditional" and old-fashioned: the Author mainly refers to the "big" Italian military historians of the Eighties and to their common-places. An example: it is not possible to further define the G 50 "perhaps the worst monoplane fighter of WWII", if one takes into account the good achievements of the FIAT fighter in Finnish hands. In my opinion there are much better (and more recent) sectoral works. Anyhow the better chapter is the second and the worst the fourth.


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## Civettone (Nov 18, 2009)

Which better ones do you suggest ? I don't see many books on the subject.


Kris


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## teiresiasx (Nov 18, 2009)

As I wrote, the majority of the books I deem interesting are sectoral. My minimal suggestions are the following:

A)
War-economy, industry etc.:

Vera Zamagni
"How to lose the war but win the peace", in
"The Economics of World War II: 
Six Great Powers in International Comparison"
Mark Harrison (editor),
Cambirdge University Press, 1998

B)
Air Force:

Hakan Gustavsson - Ludovico Slongo
"Fiat Cr.42 Aces Of World War 2"
Osprey, 2009

Hakan Gustavsson - Ludovico Slongo
"Desert Prelude
Air War in North Africa 1940-41"
Mushroom, 2008

C)
Navy:

Vincent P. O'Hara
"Struggle for the Middle Sea: The Great Navies at War in the Mediterranean Theater, 1940-1945"
Naval Institute Press, June 2009

D)
Army

Ian W. Walker
"Iron Hulls, Iron Hearts: Mussolini's Elite Armoured Divisions in North Africa"
Marlborough, Wilts.: Crowood/St. Paul, MBI. Publishing, 2004


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## Civettone (Nov 18, 2009)

I am especially interested in the structural flaws of Italy during WW2, so mainly political and industrial. I suppose the first book would be good but unfortunatel it only deals partially with Italy. Do you know of a specific book about that subject but only for Italy ?


Kris


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## teiresiasx (Nov 18, 2009)

If you can read Italian, I could suggest a lot of books about the subject.
In German, you could be interested in Rolf Petri, "Von der Autarkie zum Wirtschaftswunder: Wirtschaftspolitik und industrieller Wandel in Italien 1935-1963" (Max Niemayer Verlag, 2001).
In English, besides Zamagni, you could read Angela Raspin, "The Italian War Economy 1940-1943, with particular reference to Italian relations with Germany", New York - London, 1986


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## Civettone (Nov 18, 2009)

cool. Yeah I can read Italian though not as good as English. Happen to have a good one in that list which is not too big?


Kris


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## teiresiasx (Nov 19, 2009)

Here's a list (of course I did not read all the books: it is a sort of personal wish-list!).

I recommend the books marked with **:
Galimberti is easy to read: it explains why Italy, like a bumble bee, should not be able to fly, but manages to fly nevertheless;
Luciani has plenty of data and focuses on the war;
Maiocchi, though somewhat sectoral (it focuses on science, edge technology and key strategic productions during the Fascism), is rich of tabular data;
Petri is, all in all, the best economic history of Italy;
Zamagni's "Introduzione" is particularly tiny: a mere introduction, though useful;
Zamagni's "Come perdere..." is a collection of authoritative essays on Italian war economy, whose much abridged English translation was published in Harrison's "The Economics of World War II": it is extremely important.

BAIROCH PAUL
ECONOMIA E STORIA MONDIALE
I MITI E I PARADOSSI DELLE LEGGI DELL'ECONOMIA IN UN SAGGIO
€ 10,50
GARZANTI LIBRI

BECATTINI GIACOMO
IL CALABRONE IN ITALIA
Ricerche e ragionamenti sulla peculiarità economica italiana
€ 22,00
IL MULINO

BIANCHI PATRIZIO
LA RINCORSA FRENATA
L'INDUSTRIA ITALIANA DALL'UNITA' NAZIONALE ALL'UNIFICAZIONE EUROPEA
€ 23,00
IL MULINO

CAMERON RONDO - NEAL LARRY
STORIA ECONOMICA DEL MONDO
II. DAL XVIII SECOLO AI GIORNI NOSTRI
€ 24,00
IL MULINO

CASTRONOVO VALERIO
STORIA ECONOMICA D'ITALIA
DALL'OTTOCENTO AI GIORNI NOSTRI
€ 29,80
EINAUDI

CASTRONOVO VALERIO
L'INDUSTRIA ITALIANA DALL'OTTOCENTO A OGGI
€ 9,00
MONDADORI

CASTRONOVO V. (CUR.)
STORIA DELL'ECONOMIA MONDIALE VOL.4
4. TRA ESPANSIONE E RECESSIONE
€ 38,73
LATERZA

CASTRONOVO V. (CUR.)
STORIA DELL'ECONOMIA MONDIALE VOL.5
5. LA MODERNIZZAZIONE E I PROBLEMI DEL SOTTOSVILUPPO
€ 38,73
LATERZA

CIOCCA PIERLUIGI; CIOCCA A. (CUR.); FUSCO C. (CUR.)
L'ECONOMIA MONDIALE NEL NOVECENTO
UNA SINTESI, UN DIBATTITO
€ 12,91
IL MULINO

CIOCCA P. (CUR.); TONIOLO G. (CUR.)
STORIA ECONOMICA D'ITALIA
1. INTERPRETAZIONI
€ 18,08
LATERZA

CIOCCA P. (CUR.); TONIOLO G. (CUR.)
STORIA ECONOMICA D'ITALIA
2. ANNALI
€ 30,99
LATERZA

CIOCCA P. (CUR.); TONIOLO G. (CUR.)
STORIA ECONOMICA D'ITALIA
3. INDUSTRIE, MERCATI, ISTITUZIONI TOMO 1 - LE STRUTTURE DELL'ECONOMIA
€ 24,00
LATERZA

CIOCCA P. (CUR.); TONIOLO G. (CUR.)
STORIA ECONOMICA D'ITALIA
3. INDUSTRIE, MERCATI, ISTITUZIONI TOMO 2. I VINCOLI E LE OPPORTUNITA'
€ 24,00
LATERZA

CIPOLLA CARLO M.
INTRODUZIONE ALLA STORIA ECONOMICA
€ 16,00
IL MULINO

COHEN JON - FEDERICO GIOVANNI
LO SVILUPPO ECONOMICO ITALIANO 1820-1960
€ 10,33
IL MULINO

COVA ALBERTO
ECONOMIA, LAVORO E ISTITUZIONI NELL'ITALIA DEL NOVECENTO
SCRITTI DI STORIA ECONOMICA
€ 75,00
VITA E PENSIERO

DE SIMONE
STORIA ECONOMICA
DALLA RIVOLUZIONE INDUSTRIALE ALLA RIVOLUZIONE INFORMATICA
€ 17,00
FRANCO ANGELI

FOREMAN PECK JAMES
STORIA DELL'ECONOMIA INTERNAZIONALE
DAL 1850 A OGGI
€ 32,50
IL MULINO

** GALIMBERTI FABRIZIO-PAOLAZZI LUCA
IL VOLO DEL CALABRONE: Breve storia dell'economia italiana nel Novecento
€ 18,00
EDUMOND LE MONNIER, 1998

GIANNETTI RENATO
TECNOLOGIA E SVILUPPO ECONOMICO ITALIANO 1870-1990
€ 13,43
IL MULINO

LEONARDI ANDREA-COVA ALBERTO-GALEA PASQUALE
IL NOVECENTO ECONOMICO ITALIANO
DALLA GRANDE GUERRA AL "MIRACOLO ECONOMICO"
€ 35,00
MONDUZZI

** LUCIANI LUCIANO
L'ECONOMIA E LA FINANZA ITALIANA DI GUERRA NEL SECONDO CONFLITTO MONDIALE,
€ 10
ENTE EDITORIALE PER IL CORPO DELLA GUARDIA DI FINANZA, 2007

** MAIOCCHI ROBERTO
Gli scienziati del Duce: Il ruolo dei ricercatori e del CNR nella politica autarchica del fascismo
329 pagg., 27,00 Euro
Carocci, 2003

** PETRI ROLF
STORIA ECONOMICA D'ITALIA
DALLA GRANDE GUERRA AL MIRACOLO ECONOMICO (1918-1963)
€ 20,00
IL MULINO, 2002

POLLARD - ZAMAGNI
STORIA ECONOMICA DEL NOVECENTO
€ 18,50
IL MULINO

ZAMAGNI VERA
DALLA RIVOLUZIONE INDUSTRIALE ALL'INTEGRAZIONE EUROPEA
€ 12,50
IL MULINO

**ZAMAGNI VERA
INTRODUZIONE ALLA STORIA ECONOMICA D'ITALIA
€ 12,50
IL MULINO, 2007

ZAMAGNI
Dalla periferia al centro
La seconda rinascita economica dell'Italia (1861-1990)
€ 27,50
IL MULINO

** ZAMAGNI VERA (A CURA DI)
COME PERDERE LA GUERRA E VINCERE LA PACE
€ 21,69, 368 PAGG.
IL MULINO, 1997


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## Civettone (Nov 19, 2009)

Awesome !

Thx for the list, I saved them so now I have something to look for. Thanks !

Kris


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## merlin (Dec 2, 2009)

tomo pauk said:


> It's really a close call.
> 
> (not affecting the poll: )
> The Gloster with Twin Wasp would eat Zeros for breakfast, had Aussies decided to build those. Sort of 'Colonial fighter' thing, being faster then Hurricane with same power.



If the Aussies put a US engine in it, I wonder instead of 8 x 0.303", could they fit 4 x 0.50" machine guns?


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## tomo pauk (Dec 2, 2009)

Sure enough, the 4 HMGs would offer a nice punch.


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