# PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS



## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2005)

Let's try to list all the piston engine aircraft jet kills recorded. WW2 will be the emphasis, but let's try to get some in the post WW2 era. Photos welcomed, remember your source!


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2005)

Donald Bochkay
363rd FS of the 357th Fighter Group
02-09-45 - Fulda, Germany: Me-262 Victory
04-18-45 - Prague, Czech: Me-262 Victory

F/O Charles Brantley (100th FS)
1 ME 262 Jet Destroyed March 24,1945 

Capt. Roscoe Brown (100th SF)
1 ME 262 Jet (Destroyed March 24, 1945
Lt. Earl Lane (100th FS)
1 ME 262 Jet (Destroyed March 24, 1945

(Tuskegee Airmen)


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## DAVIDICUS (May 10, 2005)

Could everyone also list the allied aircraft that was the kill instrument as well?


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2005)

DAVIDICUS said:


> Could everyone also list the allied aircraft that was the kill instrument as well?



Sure, if you have that data.


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## Erich (May 10, 2005)

I posted a ton of info including pics in older postings about the Me 262. Several US aces and airmen are personal friends. About 13 or so jet killers of the US AF are still living. I am seeing two this August to my north.

One a pilot from the 56th fg and the other from the 354th fg

E ~


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## DAVIDICUS (May 10, 2005)

Those kills from the 339th and 363rd would have been P-51's.


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## mosquitoman (May 10, 2005)

The Tempest did well against Me262s, Ivan Kodehzub was the only Russian pilot to down one


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## Erich (May 10, 2005)

Actually Ivan was one of 3 Soviets that downed a Me 262. 

I was planning on writing up a book on jet killers so I'll dump some more goodies here by weekend-sunday or so.

E ~

there were approximately 29 Me 262's and several Ar 234's destroyed as claims by RAF single engine fighters


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2005)

Erich said:


> Actually Ivan was one of 3 Soviets that downed a Me 262.
> 
> I was planning on writing up a book on jet killers so I'll dump some more goodies here by weekend-sunday or so.
> 
> ...



Thanks Erich, appreciate you sharing them!


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## Anonymous (May 11, 2005)

I'd be interested in any info on the effectiveness of the .50 M23 incendairy round which was deployed in late 1944 or early 1945 specifically to kill the jets. It had a muzzle velocity of about 1100 m/s, weighed 34.5 grams (quite a bit less than the ~44 gram M8 API), almost 6 grams of IM28 (a more potent incendiary metal than IM11), but an effective range for incendiary effect of only about 500 feet.

=S=

Lunatic


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 11, 2005)

The one i know anything about is post war.

Since the close of WWII Britian's Fleet air arm has shot down 25 enemy aircraft, and 24 of these were over the falklands, so where's the other one??

Easy- over Korea. An FAA Hawker Sea Fury, the pilot of which i don't know, managed to shoot down a MiG-15..............


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## FLYBOYJ (May 11, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> The one i know anything about is post war.
> 
> Since the close of WWII Britian's Fleet air arm has shot down 25 enemy aircraft, and 24 of these were over the falklands, so where's the other one??
> 
> Easy- over Korea. An FAA Hawker Sea Fury, the pilot of which i don't know, managed to shoot down a MiG-15..............



I heard of this too, anybody else got info


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## BombTaxi (May 11, 2005)

I *believe* the Fury was from 801 Sqn FAA. The carrier Im not sure of, although a rusty memory suggests it was Invincible or Illustrious. If anyone could correct/clarify, that would be cool! 

(Am technically revising for a continental philosophy exam at the moment, so dont have time for a full look-up! )


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## FLYBOYJ (May 11, 2005)

BombTaxi said:


> I *believe* the Fury was from 801 Sqn FAA. The carrier Im not sure of, although a rusty memory suggests it was Invincible or Illustrious. If anyone could correct/clarify, that would be cool!
> 
> (Am technically revising for a continental philosophy exam at the moment, so dont have time for a full look-up! )



From the Air War Museum website:

"Sea Furies served extensively in the Korean War, operating from Royal Navy carriers HMS Glory, HMS Ocean and HMS Theseus, and Australian carrier HMAS Sydney. They usually paired with Fairey Fireflies for ground attack missions. The Sea Fury excelled in this role, often proving superior to the enemy’s modern jets. For example, on August 9, 1952, Royal Navy Lieutenant “Hoagy” Carmichael, flying a Sea Fury of HMS Ocean’s 802 Squadron, shot down a Soviet-built North Korean Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG 15, marking the first such kill by a piston-engined fighter, and the only air-to-air kill by a British pilot flying a British aircraft in the Korean War."


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## BombTaxi (May 11, 2005)

I stand corrected...although I was almost right on the squadron!


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## FLYBOYJ (May 11, 2005)

BombTaxi said:


> I stand corrected...although I was almost right on the squadron!



Remember BT - almost only counts in horseshoes, handgranades, hatchetfights and nuclear war!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 11, 2005)

good point......

and thanks for the extra info..........


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## R Leonard (May 11, 2005)

Well, not World War II, but . . .

On 10 September 1952, Captain Jesse G. Folmar, USMC (VMA-312), in an F4U-4B (BuNo 62927) shot down a MiG-15 off the North Korean coast near Chinnampo. MiG pilot was seen to bail out, afire, and the MiG observed to crash into the sea. Moments later another MiG shot down Folmar. He bailed out and was rescued by a SAR plane, called by his wingman, Lieutenant Walter E Daniels, USMC, spending about eight minutes in the water.

On 20 June 1965 a four-plane RESCAP division of VA-25 A-1H’s off USS Midway led by Lieutenant Commander Edwin Greenhouse, USN, was jumped by a North Vietnamese Mig-17 north of Thanh Hoa. Initiating a section-to-section “Thach Weave,” while running for the coast, they were able to sucker the MiG in close. Lieutenant Clinton Johnson, USNR, in BuNo 137523, and Lieutenant (jg) Charles W. Hartman, III, USN, in BuNo 139786, got the drop on MiG as it approached the other section and gunned it down in an head-on encounter. Each received ½ credit for the kill.

On 9 October 1966 Lieutenant (jg) William T. Patton, USN, flying a VA-176 A-1H (BuNo 137543) in a four-plane RESCAP off USS Intrepid shot down an interfering MiG-17 near Hanoi. Kill was observed by his section leader, Lieutenant Peter Russell, USN.


Regards,

Rich


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## Udet (May 11, 2005)

With the sole exception of nine (9) guncamera shots from USA fighters i have i would say the bulk -if not all- of those jet claims filed by USAAF veterans are pure tales.

The guncamera im referring to shows 9 jets indeed getting pounded by enemy fighters.

Amazingly all nine shots i owe show the German jet at very low altitude with the undercarriage displayed for landing. In two of those shots you can clearly see the paved runway and even trucks in the back ground. In some others you can see trees, thickets, etc.

Perhaps a few more jets damaged by a bomber box defensive barrage got intercepted and shot down, but the allied assertion of P-51s, P-47s or whatever plane managing to outfly the German jet is in my view a Grimm fairy tale.

Also what i do find quite strange is the fact some Me262s were captured intact at the end of the war and no mock-dogfights involving the Schwalbe and the "perfect" P-51 were made to attempt proving the very common allied babbling saying that when the jet turned "it was piece of cake".

Couldn´t it be the easiest and coolest way to show the world your alleged marvels such as the P-51 could deal with the Me262 in a dogfight?

Make a mock-dogfight and have it filmed god damn it.

Or perhaps such tests were carried out but the USAAF decided to either modify or conceal the actual outcome of such tests...who knows, they have done stuff like that. Why not to do it with the jet.

"Oh, well...the machine surely was fast...but our gallant and honorable pilots could handle it with relative east...whenever it turned, we fried the hun..." 

Reminds me of the funny British testing of a captured Bf109G fitted with underwing gondola cannons to prove their Spitfire was "better".
Not even when compared to the gondola equipped Bf109 G could the Spitfire prove any significant and defintive "superiority".


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## wmaxt (May 11, 2005)

Udet,

If the 262 pilot was on final or in a turn where the jet made a wider turn it is possible with a goog guess as to the destination an intercept could be accomplished. A lot also depends on awarness of the jet pilot and/or the situation of the jet, out of fuel, 1 engine out etc. When your on final and your out of gas your a sitting duck in every way!

I've never heard or seen a pilots account that even hinted at out performing a jet of any kind at anytime. Always the account mentioned something that put the jet into the performance envelope of the piston engined fighter. Many were caught landing or taking off. Given the Flight time available to the 163 and 262 and the swarms of Allied fighters at the time and place the jet/rocket planes HAD to be used it was inviteable that it happened.

wmaxt


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## evangilder (May 11, 2005)

I have never heard stories of allied fighters "outflying" the 262. I don't know where you get that. Sure they got them while landing, they certainly could not have caught them in a chase now, could they? Also, if in a head to head situation, it's who lands the shots. Lucky, perhaps, but still a kill.


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## mosquitoman (May 11, 2005)

It was normally while the jets were landing that they got shot down, one plane would have a strafe, then the next until it went down. I don't envy the Me-262 pilots in that situation


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## Udet (May 11, 2005)

I understand some of your points very well.

...Likewise, i would not envy the situation of those USAAF fighter pilots who got caught by the jet.

I happen to have one guncamera film that in accordance with the opinion of a group of very knowledged gentlemen comes from a Me 262.

I just had it there but could not tell what German plane was responsible for the kill.

All i can tell you is i am talking about an authentic horror film. The end of that poor Mustang pilot can be any fighter pilot´s worst nightmare. Like an outbreak of a million nightmares stored too long in the darkest and sulphurous cellars of hell. 

I call it the perfect move of the predator. (i) Prey is spotted, (ii) the chase and (iii) the kill.

It starts with the camera showing a distant enemy plane: first you can not determine what kind of plane is it.

After some more seconds the plane in the camera begins taking shape: it is a Mustang. The gentlemen who anaylized it, concluded no piston plane, friend and foe alike, could have covered such distance in the time the plane fitted with camera did. They first calculated the distance between both planes at the moment the plane first appears in the camera; calculating time elapsed between two events: (i) first appearance in the camera and (ii) the virtual grab -kill- what was followed.

The Mustang attempted evasive action by conducting a close turn: the German plane *kept inside *of it until the Mustang filled the camera; what followed was all guns blazing and the Mustang got literally puliverized: flashes, smoke, pieces and debris of all sizes flying alongside the _still flying _but dead P-51.

The cockpit got opened aft by the German shells, the way you´d do with an egg to get the white and the yolk out of the shell, and you can get a 1 second glimpse of the pilot´s body in motion alongside with the pieces and debris of his plane. His body with all limbs horribly twisted.

It is so disturbing i have not watched it in months -i do intend watching it again-.


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## Anonymous (May 12, 2005)

Udet,

There is at least one very well confirmed case of a P-51 shooting down a 262 in real combat. I doubt it's a "fairy tale" as the 262 had killed a P-51 and got caught by a lucky shot from his wingman. I believe it exploded, and it was witnessed going down by multiple pilots.

I'll try to find the account and post it.

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (May 12, 2005)

Well the famous ace Nowotny of the Kommando was shot down in combat by two P-51's and it wasn't upon landing either. the 357th and 20th fg pilots shared the claim although it appeared for some time that Fiebelkorn should of been given credit of the 20th fg.

Yes there were many air combat incidences with 262's falling to the P-51 and P-47's as well as 262's being shot down on landing approach.

more later come sunday ?

My friend Dick Hewitt of the 78th fg shot down 2 in April of 45 on the same date, one of them bailed out, a Ritterkreuzträger, the other crashed to his death. Friend Huie Lamb also of the 78th fg shot 1 262 down in his P-47.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 12, 2005)

Great stuff guys! Erich, can't wait to see what you have!


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## Udet (May 12, 2005)

My friend Erich!

This is one of the rare occassions i disagree with you.

Actual causes of Nowotny´s death remain uncertain. From all accounts and sources i have managed to consult i can tell no undisputable evidence has emerged. I am aware of the guys allegedly responsible for shooting him down though.

Most accounts agree his engines malfunctioned and caught fire at low altitude, he then lost control of his plane and crashed. That Mustangs were nearby during the crash of his plane does not imply he got shot down by the enemy.

That it might have happened the way the allies say can be true, however it is not proved.

That is another anomaly observed in the allies: to invariably credit the death of an experte to any of their aces. The direction of such assertions is rather simple: "even their greatest pilots perished at the hands of our superior, gallant, heroic and noble pilots".

Some guys here give a great deal of weight to the German propaganda during the war. They apparently fail to acknowledge both the USA and UK had prolific propaganda systems as well.

There is, however, one point: the propaganda of the Reich ceased functioning by May 9, 1945. The propaganda of the victors continued working after the German surrender. Furthermore, it is still working in the present day world.



I stick to my first posting within this thread: i would put into doubt the bulk of the information the allies have issued on the performance of the jet. 

They captured a fistful of fully operational jets when Germany surrendered. Many of those were shipped to the USA where tests were carried out. Where are the results of those testings?

I mean the USAAF had bully guys returning to base from combat missions claiming the destruction of jets!

Wouldn´t it be of great interest to the USAAF command to witness themselves what was it like to see their marvelous perfect flawless wonderful dashy fighters in a dogfight with the jets?

A duly FILMED and RECORDED mock dogfight of a P-51 or P-47 against the Me 262 would have been the definitive evidence. Oddly, there is no such evidence available.

With this i mean that after Germany´s surrender the allies had the elements served at table to prove their assetions. If they were so convinced on their undisputed superiority on virtually every aspect of warfare technology, why did they waste the opportunity to prove it?

Or perhaps they carried out similar testings but the outcome was not so serving and rather decided to do whatever with the reports...conceal the results, turn them "classified", or perhaps they simply resorted to write whatever they wanted to on the reports.

That is one of the advantages of being in the victorious side. Being the victor of a war empowers you to do whatever the burning hell you want to do.

What are you going to respond on this RG_Lunatic?


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## Erich (May 12, 2005)

ground control at Kommando Nowotny/III./JG 54 confirmed that Walters last words were "I have been hit"

He shot down 1 P-51 and then was set upon by 1 then 2 P-51's with his engines and cockpit being hit........

Udet we have had long discussions on this very subject. simply put the P-51 was no match at a flat out race at any altitude. And true many were shot down on landing, fewer on take-off as the Luftwaffe started to provide multi-use Flakvierlings on the few basses associated with jet activity. The 262 was weak on it's turning radius and due to speed was wide which the P-51 pilots took the initiative and closed within, not just one but many below and above. The jet pilot was at the mercy of the P-51's unless able to have the otion of lfying straight away. The fule liones in the jet engine nacelles were weak and were easily fractured by even 1 .50 round and in that case too much was rendered on the other performing engine, the P-51's were able then to close the gap.

In the observance of the last war months over the Reich the 262 was no match for hundreds of P-51's just looking for 1-2 jets to set upon as the jet zoomed down and then upward through a US heavy bomber formations. Imagine the jet pilots no-one coming to their aid while at least 10-12 P-51s from several different US fighter groups converging to take out this 1 jet, while the other jet may have had a chance to escape or the same scenario appeared time and time again. Yes the Allied escort pilots had guts and were quite a cocky bunch till this day. The jet pilots were brave and new the odds were far against them but they did their duty knowing full well even with their speeds beyond anything the US could come up with could only dream of shooting down maybe 1-2 B-17's or B-24's during 1 mission knowing that dropping the landing gear at their base and even warned of "Indianers" in the area they soon could be a sitting duck target.
the proof is that the P-51 was shot down by Me 262's and that the 262 was shot down by the P-51 upon landing, taking off and in aerial combat. The proof is in the cine films and there are plenty of them still left from boths sides.

v/r E ♪


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## Erich (May 12, 2005)

to continue this in a slightly different light

for the U.S. AF


4th fg 7 ............... Me 262's
20th fg 5 1/2
31st fg 7
52nd fg 14
78th fg 11
325th fg 1
332nd fg 3
339th fg 14
352nd fg 5 1/2
353rd fg 6
354th fg 4
355th fg 4
356th fg 2
357th fg 18
359th fg 5
361st fg 6
364th fg 1 1/2
479th fg 5

there were 118 1/2 Me 262's shot down, 12 Ar 234's and 5 Me 163 Komets.

this is what was listed in official US kill archiv's but were they really confirmed ? time will tell and maybe we can delve ever deeper. I personally own several 8th US AF fg histories and of course have met and interviewed several that have taken out the Me 262......

 let the research begin !!  

♪


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## DAVIDICUS (May 13, 2005)

I read some where that the first Me-262 was forced down by P-47's of the 78th FG on August 28, 1944

Depiction below:
B-24's of the 489th Bomb Group were sent to destroy the rail marshaling yards at Bielefeld in Germany. 
They were very surprised to see the Messersmidt Me-262's over the target.
P-47's were escorting the Group, and no losses were recorded on either side.


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## plan_D (May 13, 2005)

I've read that the first Me-262 was downed by a P-47 too. 

Great signature by the way, Davidicus.


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## KraziKanuK (May 13, 2005)

plan_D said:


> I've read that the first Me-262 was downed by a P-47 too.



That's debatable. Lauer's 262 was hit by the 47s as he was putting down in a crash landing as he had run out of fuel. Lauer survived the crash landing. The 78th pilots were Myers and Croy.

The first true 262 lost in air combat was shot down in flames by Spitfire IXs of 401 RCAF. The 262 pilot was H-C Butmann in WNr 170093 of 3./KG51.


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## plan_D (May 13, 2005)

Erich, do you know how many _fighters_ the Me-262 shot down?


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## delcyros (May 13, 2005)

Are we talking about claims or kills?
I doubt you will find a whole list of confimed kills of Me-262 either.
I think, RG has checked this matter in detail and posted some 300+ arial victories of the Me-262 somewhere. In general, I doubt that the US/UK/RCAAF/SU loss lists are correct and avaiable to verify the claims. Even if losses match (esspecially US, since these are accessable, god thanks!) claims, they are often connected to other reasons than damage inflyted by Me-262 (the same was done in Korea: engine failure, midaircollision, plane running out of fuel and so on instead of the MiGs, which inflicted the damage..).
While I do not have sources to prove, I believe that Me-262 fighter kills are surprisingly low, since this jet was a bomber interceptor.
Erich, can you name the other SU pilots, which claim to destroy a Me-262?This would interest me particularly.
By the way, what is known about the US and British/Canadian pilots, who managed to get one of these rare He-162 kills? According to german sources there must have been between 5 and 8...


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## Erich (May 13, 2005)

so many questions so little time.....  

I can give you a run down of all the US claims but that will take months as well as all the RAF claims.

since not all the Me 262 units have histories it is impossible to cross check all, and in fact JG 7 although covered in an excellent history both US/German language it does not cover all claims and losses either, as their still are some gaps.

118 seems to be confirmed but even I doubt it. Will post some comparisions shortly.

maybe we should start at the very beginnings in October of 44 with 262 claims ? then to losses ? this could get quite long but what do you all think or want to do ??

Erich ~


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## FLYBOYJ (May 13, 2005)

If we could do losses first....

Thanks!


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## Erich (May 13, 2005)

August 28, 1944 1 jet claimed as destroyed by 78th fg pilots Major J Myers and Lt. M.D.Croy.

Ronny Lauer from I./KG 51 was actually on a landing pattern and crash landed his 262 to get away from the Allied fighters, He took off out of the jet and ran for cover as the two P-47 pilots turned his jet to junk. Ronny was able to fight on many more missions as he survived the war........

the US pilot Croy admitted to shooting at Lauer and hitting him but Lauer was uninjured.....


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## DAVIDICUS (May 13, 2005)

I know that there is some controversy over that incident which is why I said,

"I read some where that the first Me-262 was *forced down* by P-47's of the 78th FG on August 28, 1944" 

From what I understand, one engine had quit from lack of fuel and he was forced into a premature crash-landing as a result of the P-47's.


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## Erich (May 13, 2005)

my 3 sources do not mention. /// Ronny Lauer was to come back on the 2nd of October and tried to bounce P-47's of 365th fg, trying to evade the Jugs after several unsuccessful attacks both turbines shut down-ran out of fuel and Ronny dropped down to within 500 ft of the ground. Captain Valmore Beaudrault jumped the 262, the 262 dropped a wing and it hit the ground, cartwheeling and then exploding, Lauer surviving the blast but with serious injuries. Beaudrault was given a credit for unconfirmed destroyed.......go figure !


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## plan_D (May 13, 2005)

I think that should be a kill. He didn't actually shoot the aircraft but he did force it into the ground, so it's a kill in my eyes.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 13, 2005)

plan_D said:


> I think that should be a kill. He didn't actually shoot the aircraft but he did force it into the ground, so it's a kill in my eyes.



And I believe that is used as crteria for a kill as well.


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## KraziKanuK (May 13, 2005)

plan_D said:


> I think that should be a kill. He didn't actually shoot the aircraft but he did force it into the ground, so it's a kill in my eyes.



How far do you want to take that? Any a/c attacked and damaged could be called a _kill_ if it crashed, eventually, even when trying to land back at its base.

Erich, have you seen Wendel's report? Did Lauer make a emergency landing at a French airfield and later crashed when attacked by the P-47s (sic Spitfires)?


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## Erich (May 13, 2005)

I have seen many reprots guys and I will cover the Spitfire kill a bit later. I am trying to look at a chronological order to all of this and of course excluding the Me 262 claims for now.

I am trying hard to report what was claimed or confirmed and cross reference the operation with the two sides involved. do not want to take sides but if all of you want to debate go ahead. Lauers first impression during his first forced landing in august mentioned that he thought they were Spits and not Jugs. As there is no I./KG 51 unit history yet confirmation of the days ops is still much sketchy. The Kommandeur of the I. gruppe survived the war and was writing the history but passed away and am not sure who is going to take up this very much needed units story.........indeed later war ops in spring of 45 just mentions an area of engagement or shoot down and not even a pilots name as well as no accurate spot of the downing either by the P-51 or the 262. Generalities exist


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## FLYBOYJ (May 13, 2005)

KraziKanuK said:


> plan_D said:
> 
> 
> > I think that should be a kill. He didn't actually shoot the aircraft but he did force it into the ground, so it's a kill in my eyes.
> ...



I think if it could confirmed that they forced him down and he crashed, it should be considered a kill.


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## Erich (May 13, 2005)

why do I feel this incredibly long thread is going to need an edit now and then....  

if I may back up just a bit.

Ronny Lauers ture name was Hieronymous. On August 28 in a German report he was flying with Kommando Schenk and was reported to have been engaged near Brussels.

For 2 October Herr Lauer is in 3./KG 51 flying Me 262 coded 9K+NL, werke nummer : 170069, (shot down by US fighter near Rheine), we now know otherwise.......


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## plan_D (May 13, 2005)

Yes, if they confirmed that the plane that crashed on landing was due to damage caused by a certain pilot in an earlier conflict, it's a kill for that pilot. Why not?


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## FLYBOYJ (May 13, 2005)

Years later, but same case:

"One kill was credited to a F-15C pilot who maneuvered his MiG-29 opponent into flying his aircraft into the ground. The F-15C's 20-mm cannon was never fired in anger." 

From Desert Storm Chronicles


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## DAVIDICUS (May 13, 2005)

"_How far do you want to take that? Any a/c attacked and damaged could be called a kill if it crashed, eventually, even when trying to land back at its base._"

Well, if you are forced down into a crash in the midst of being engaged by enemy fighters, that constitutes a pretty clear and reasonable bright line for determining a kill don't you think?

Your example, as stated above, involves an "eventual" crash after hostile engagement has ceased.

Forcing a pilot, in the heat of combat, to crash-land or otherwise set down on your terms, as opposed to his, in a fashion that destroys his plane would clearly constitute a kill. 

How about a situation where a plane is engaged by the enemy, shot to hell, goes into an out of control dive, and the pilot at the last moment regains enough control of the aircraft to crash land and destroys the aircraft in the process? No kill?


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## FLYBOYJ (May 13, 2005)

DAVIDICUS said:


> "_How about a situation where a plane is engaged by the enemy, shot to hell, goes into an out of control dive, and the pilot at the last moment regains enough control of the aircraft to crash land and destroys the aircraft in the process? No kill?_


_

I think if you could confirm this, its a kill._


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## Erich (May 13, 2005)

ok enough..........

3rd/4th Me 262 losses was on 5 October 1944.

the first was Hauptmann Hans-Christoph Buttmann of 3./KG 51 shot down by the RCAF fighters near Nijmegen in 9K+BL and the second this date was also from 3./KG 51, Unteroffizier Gerhard Franke flying 9K+PL shot down at Engden/Nordhorn although this maybe due to Flak ?

KK do you have information you want to share on these ? I can fill in a bit if not....


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## KraziKanuK (May 13, 2005)

Unteroffizier Gerhard Franke was flying WNr 170082.

Info comes from the Classic 262 series.

It seems Lauer like to run his 262 (this time WNr 170069) out of fuel, for on the Oct 2 he again did so and crashed. The a/c that he attacked were from the 365thFG. They chased after him and claimed him as a kill.


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## Udet (May 13, 2005)

Erich:

The list showing "jet kills" per Figher Group you posted deserves a cut down of at least half the total number.

It is quite a comfortable thing for the USAAF to know the accurate records of Kommando Nowotny and JG 7 are not available.

Here the victor´s syndrome emerges: my claims are true but those of the "unreliable" nazi jet are of course over inflated.

Very comfortable: I publish my list of alleged shot down jets as evidence and proceed to put the victories of the jets under close scrutiny and doubt, for after all the logs of jet units can not be found completely.

It is a very funny show you guys are running here.

Delcyros: so you are convinced the number of kills gained by the jet were extremely low because it was not a fighter? BAH!!


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## Erich (May 13, 2005)

1/2 ? maybe, maybe not. In case we have just proven of at least what 3 jets downed by fighters.

My whole purpose Udet with your help and others is try and get the record cleaned up. there are several overall histories that need to be checked as well as the fg histories to cross reference. I think we can all add two cents and make a fairly good listing. If anything to honour vets from both sides living and the fallen.

I've heard both sides of the story by the P-51 pilots and the jet pilots themselves. Let's work together on this ok ? negativity really turns my stomach...............besides it really doesn't pump me up to even do any research as it is time wasted...........

verstehen ?


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## KraziKanuK (May 13, 2005)

There is this site to check out, http://www.stormbirds.com/werknummer/index.htm


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## FLYBOYJ (May 13, 2005)

Udet said:


> Erich:
> 
> The list showing "jet kills" per Figher Group you posted deserves a cut down of at least half the total number.
> 
> ...



Eirch published earlier:

there were 118 1/2 Me 262's shot down, 12 Ar 234's and 5 Me 163 Komets. 

I think that's a good basis to substantiate over-claims.


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## lesofprimus (May 13, 2005)

Whose records are those listed from FBJ??? German or Allied sources???

How much of a disparity is there between the 2 recorded kill listings???


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## FLYBOYJ (May 13, 2005)

Erich said:


> Let's work together on this ok ? negativity really turns my stomach...............besides it really doesn't pump me up to even do any research as it is time wasted....



Erich, hang in there, this project got my attention and I appreciate your (and others) efforts in this research!


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## Erich (May 13, 2005)

as I said I am going to try and remain neutral. Lets list in order the kills-claims or whatever we want to call it from the "sources" and try and reference Allied to true Me 262 losses if possible and then of course the turn around once this is all done of Me 262 claims-kills to true Allied losses; my thoughts can it be done .... ?

lets see where were we...ah back in October 44 yes

E


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## Erich (May 13, 2005)

7 Ocotber, Kommando Nowotny intercepted B-24's and covering P-47's flown by Hub Zemke and Lt N. Benoit shot down Heinz Russel's Me 262 with Heinz bailing out successfully.

Everyone probably knows about this 361st pilot Urban Drew who shot down 2 Me 262's of Kommando Nowotny. Drew waited until 2 jets took off got in behind and shot down Lt. Gerhard Korbert who was killed in his crash-blew up and Hauptmann Arnold who was able to pop the canopy and bail out injured.

A I./KG 51 pilot bailed out unhurt under the P-47 guns of 78th fg Major R. E. Conner. the Me 262 was in the alnding approach near Osnabrück.


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## evangilder (May 14, 2005)

Erich, you are producing some great info with a nice neutral position. That is the way that history _should_ be presented. There are several people here who should take note, myself included.


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## KraziKanuK (May 14, 2005)

262 losses to fighters

*Oct 12* - WNr 170064, Uffz Edmond Delatowski, 3./KG51 - Tempest V, PO Bob Cole, 3 Sqd

*Oct 13* - FjFw Edgar Junghans, 3./KG51 - P-51, Lt Huie H Lamb, 78thFG

*Nov 1* - Ofah Willi Banzhaff, Cdo Nowotny - P-51, Lt William Gerbe Jr 352cd FG/P-47, Lt Walter Groce, 56thFG

*Nov 4* - Ofah Banzhaff, Cdo Nowotny, MIA near Luneburg

*Nov 6* - Chuckie Yeager's claim of WNr 110389 disagrees with German account > Lt Sprangenburg, Cdo Nowotny, crash landing after being hit by own flak though Yeager was on his tail - a/c salvaged

Ofw Heinz Lennartz, Cdo Nowotny - Lt William Quinn, 361stFG - possible

*Nov 7* - Lt Schall, , Cdo Nowotny - Lt James Kenny, 357thFG

Nowotny - Lt Richard Stevens, 364th FG


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## Anonymous (May 14, 2005)

Yeager's guncam footage shows hits being scored. I'm not sure if this is the same 262 though.

Damage caused by M23 hits might well have been misread as "own flak".

=S=

Lunatic


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## Erich (May 14, 2005)

Huie Lambs victory is actually on October 15 , 1944 flying a P-47 pictured....

I will include his reprot sent to me by him on Sunday/Monday


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## Erich (May 14, 2005)

Also the Gerbe Groce affair was on 2 November 44. Groce has proved that GErbe only added the finishing touches to Groces certain kill as the P-51 pilot from the 352nd charged in front of the 56th fg Jugs .50's and at the last moment Groce pulled back or he would of scratched 1 P-51. Groce has said his cine films say it all..............well I am going to see him and the films this August

Leutenant Walter Groce of the 56th fg


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## plan_D (May 15, 2005)

339th FG got 12 Me-262 kills, 2 probables and 19 damaged by the wars end. 

KG(J) 54 lost 6 Me-262s on Feb. 9th 1945. 
April 10th, 1945, the Luftwaffe lost 20 'jets' . 

That's all I've got on -262 losses. I don't even know if they're right.


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## lesofprimus (May 15, 2005)

Bad day for being an Ace on April 10th, 1945.......


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## Erich (May 15, 2005)

hold on guys and lets do this in chronological order ok ? trying to find Lambs report....

another shot of Huie and the Jug


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## Erich (May 15, 2005)

actually for 10 April 45 the Germans lost 27 Me 262's but claimed over 28 US bombers and Mustangs. The Jagdgeschwader sent up the largest contingent of Jets on this date during the war with 55 from Stab., I. and III. gruppe. 8 bailed out and 5 were killed during this engagement, the others must have been ground strafed at their fields. Walter Shcuck as an example was shot down but after shooting down 4 B-17's. Another ace Schall was killed as well as Walter Wagner of 1st staffel and Walter Weaver also an ace.


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## lesofprimus (May 15, 2005)

And Erich has proven my statement to be true........... Bad day to be an Ace.....


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## KraziKanuK (May 15, 2005)

Erich,

the Nov 1 date came from Smith/Creek.

*Dec 3* - WNr 110385, Obtl Joachim Velet, 1./KG51 - Tempest V, FlLt Garland

*Dec 9* - WNr 500009, 9K+IM, Stabsfw Hans Zander, 4./KG51 - Lt Edwards, 352cdFG

*Dec 17* - WNr 110501, 9K+BP, Lt Wolfgang Lubking, 6./KG51 - Tempest, W/C Wray, 122 Wing

*Dec 22* - WNr 500027, JG7(??) - P-51, Lt McGlaufin/FO Scales, 308thFS

*Dec 23* - Fw Wilhelm Wilkenloh, I./JG7, - Tempest V

*Dec 25* - WNr 110594, 9K+MM, Oblt Hans-Georg Lamle, 4./KG51 - Spitfire, FlLt Boyle, 411 Sqd


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## plan_D (May 15, 2005)

Are we talking JG7 for the 10th April, 1945?


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## Erich (May 15, 2005)

plan in what context ? The 55 jets came from them alone but I./KG 54 was also up in the air and claimed victories. A bit more research shows that some 38 Me 262's were destroyed, manyu on the ground. The Jet kommando-(N.)10./NJG 11 at Burg lost 3 jets on a raid. 6./Naufklarungruppe 6 lost 3 jets also on the Burg raid.

The four KG 54 jets shsot down were by US fighters.

Also a side note, Walter Shcuk was shot down by 20th fg pilot Lt. Jope Petersburs and I have a lengthy report on the 10 april 45 mission directly from him.

KK yes you maybe right about 1 November as Gerbe and harker from the 352nd state this. harker came in after Gerbe lost the jet and states he almost shot the tail off the jet. Groce on the other hand from his log book says it was the 2nd of November and that he shot the engine out of the jet was performing coup de grace on the Me right before Gerbe flew in front of his guns. Again Groce has invited me up to see his gun cam footage for proof this summer and I am looking forward to meeting another 56th fg pilot. Gabreski/Zemke were characters when I met up with them on two deperate occassions.....


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## plan_D (May 15, 2005)

Alright, so 38 were destroyed altogether but do you know how many were lost in the air? I know by that time Allied pilots had worked out how to beat the Me-262, like when it was coming out of a diving pass or when it was slowing down to aim...so, they must have got a lot in the air on April 10th...


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## Erich (May 15, 2005)

I really should start a whole new thread just on 10th of April as it was the killing day for JG 7 jets. Many were caught on the landing pattern from what I have read. The problem with this raid in being covered by the German side is that not all JG 7 pilots are listed. will have to dig. Maybe KK has Smith/Creeks last volume covering the late spring of 45 but I do not at this time. A case in point. JG 7 lost 19 pilots shot down, 5 of them wounded, the others KIA. My three references do not say the pilots names but could find them I suppose, neither shot down by what ? fighters and were they in the air in combat or on landing pattern which I suppose for at leat 7-8 of them minimum.. Schall for one landed after fighter combat with P-51's at Parchim and his jet rolled into a bomb crater and it exploded killing him........

it appears that during the raid on Parchim by P-51 strafers that 3 Me 262's from 2./JG 7 was destroyed so this is included also in the figure I gave of total losses.

~ E


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## lesofprimus (May 15, 2005)

Meeting Hub Zemke must have been a special treat... Ive met Gabby before, but was never fortunate enough to meet Zemke... What a great meeting that musta been......


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## Erich (May 15, 2005)

one of the meetings was actually both 56thfg aces and friend and artist Jerry Crandall. Jerry had just painted a special tribute to one of the 56th fg aces that had passed away and both Gabby and Hub were there to sign the print. I wans't interested in the print but had them sign several books from me with tributes besdies purchasing Hub's own samll paperback. those two were chracters to be sure. I'll try to get my pics re-scanned to show on the forums some time. this was back in June of 1993 in sisters, Oregon. Only about 50 people attended this special weekend so I was able to get real nosey with these two fine vets......

E ~


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## plan_D (May 15, 2005)

Have you met anyone from the 339th FG, Erich? They were the fourth (?) highest scoring FG in Europe and they were in service almost a year less.


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## Erich (May 15, 2005)

I was scheduled to go back to Bend Or and meet up with one of their pilots and he was actually the instigator of putting the 339th fg newletter together but sadly he died before we could hook up. I have chatted by both phone and the net with friend and jet killer Steve Ananian. Steve has been kind enough to send me his 262 Jet kill report and even a very long and lengthy service record-pilot logs copy.


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## plan_D (May 15, 2005)

I've heard of him, Lt. Ananian right? 1 Me-262 kill and two probables?


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## Erich (May 15, 2005)

correct friend. He had the first jet kill in the 339th fg. He is a very kind man, and we have had some fun talks about landscaping of all things since that is part of my profession.....


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## plan_D (May 15, 2005)

Did he get any other kills? 

I've got the 339th FG with 234 aerial kills and 438 ground kills. Were they just flying P-51Ds?


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## lesofprimus (May 15, 2005)

Excellent.... U seem to be a magnet for great men Erich...

I wish to God that I had had the forethought to use a tape recorder when i went to different reunions and meetings with my father and grandfather... Some of those stories..... Jeez Louise........


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## Erich (May 15, 2005)

I think it is 240 aerial kills but the gorund kills sounds about right. the big deal for this fg is the ground kill game they played with the higest scores on two seprate dates of over 100 apiece / 105 on 4 April 45 and 118 on 11 April 45.

Ace Jim Starnes is till alive and very active member within the newsletter publishing


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## KraziKanuK (May 15, 2005)

OK, this is what Smith/Creek says for Tue April 10 1945.

- first unit to scramble - 2./JG7 from Burg just before the Americans drop their bombs.

- 10 Me262s destroyed on the ground - 3 > 2./JG7, 3 > 2./NAG2, 4 > 10./NJG11

- 14:45hr take off from Parchim > 9. and 10./JG7

Ofhr Walter Windisch and Uffz Loius-Paul Vigg shot down just after lift off, both survive, possibly by P-51s from 20thFG

- 20th FG - Capt Brown, Lt north, Lt Drozd claim one each. Lt Cudd/ F/O Rosenblum share another

- one of these might have been Oblt Franz Schall of 10./JG7(14 jet kills)

- 30 Me262s take off from Oranienburg, Larz and Brandenburg

- Feldwebel Cristoph Scharz shot down - Capt Compton, 353rd FG possible victor

- Capt. Abernathy, 252rdFG

- Lt Clark and Lt Memahan share another

- Lt Tenenbaum, 359thFG, over Gardelegen airfield

- Lt Guggenos, 359thFG

- Lt Paul Ppallenda, I./KG(J)54 killed in combat

- Lt Sharbo, 56thFG, Muritz See

- Lt Collins, 4thFG

- Lt McGinnis, 55thFG

- Lt Lashbrook, 55thFG

- Lt Col Duncan, 352cdFG, Neuruppin area

- Lt Pattilo, 352cdFG,Uelzen area

- Lt Prichard/Lt Ricci, 352cdFG, share

- Capt Pick/Lt Schwarz 364thFG, share

- Lt Gatlin, 356thFG

LW losses > 5 pilots KIA, 14 MIA. a/c - 13 lost, 14 missing, 8 damaged

LW claims > 18, a/c. 11 B-17s, 5 P-51s, 2- P-47s


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## Erich (May 15, 2005)

good stuff, but I wish we would have waited later to place 10 april in chrono order. Schall was not shot down but had his Me 262 damged by P-51's and it was upon landing that he met his demise.

Lt Petersburs shot down Walter Schuck's 262 and this is confirmed in the Lt's battle report and first hand interview with Walters chuk as well as other historical evidence. Petersburs flew "Jospehine" a P-51 in the 20th fg.

Walter Hagenah probably destoryed the first jet to US fighter with R4M's ans he vaporized a P-51 when his 4 3cm weapons jammed. this through a personal interview with Walter via long letter and several book sources.


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## lesofprimus (May 15, 2005)

Great info...


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## plan_D (May 15, 2005)

Good or lucky shooting to hit a P-51 with R4/Ms.


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## Chocks away! (May 17, 2005)

Udet said:


> With the sole exception of nine (9) guncamera shots from USA fighters i have i would say the bulk -if not all- of those jet claims filed by USAAF veterans are pure tales.
> 
> The guncamera im referring to shows 9 jets indeed getting pounded by enemy fighters.
> 
> ...


 I love this guy! You can always rely on Udet to shatter allied propaganda. Do you have the gun camera shot featuring runway/trucks/etc? I'd like to see that


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## plan_D (May 17, 2005)

How is the fact that the Allied Air Force overwhelmed the Luftwaffe propaganda, exactly?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 17, 2005)

262's were not very good dog fighters and had a P-51D or Spit gotten them in the right moment they would easily take out a 262 in a dog fight. Udet 262's were only fast when they were trying to get away. In a fight with a P-51 or Spit they would have had to slow down. There is no way a 262 could sustain and turn inside of a P-51 at over 500mph. The P-51 would just slow down and let the 262 fly into his sites. I dont see why you think that they could be fake.


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## Erich (May 17, 2005)

so far what has been given in reference by KK and myself is all true and is proven by both Allied and German archiv documentation. True enough the 262 could attack by surprise, swoop down and attack then zoom up and away was the tactic against fighters. In a pure dog fight with tight turns the jet was useless and many times had flame outs all too common which proven one problem with the jet fuel mixes and touchy engines of the late 44 -45 periods. The short duration of flight also hampered the jet as already shown in several instances in November 44 when the jet just simply ran out of fuel, sputered and then was a sitting duck to be overwhelmed. And overwhelmed it was in 1945; there were just too few in the air.

Huie Lambs report ah I see it amongst the stack of 78th fg information lying in the corner of the office......  

♪♪

Reactions: Like Like:
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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 17, 2005)

I agree the aircraft was best suited for intercepting and ground attack.


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## plan_D (May 17, 2005)

The Allied fighters would just wait for them to finish their diving pass on a bomber then dive down on them, when they reach the bottom of the dive the 262 has started pulling up [and slowed down] and the fighter is on top of him and filling him full of lead. Simple.


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## Erich (May 17, 2005)

that is a pefect IF and did not always work out that way. the only way as you mentioned was to dive from above on an angle and not allow the jet to fly straight away at top speed. It was critical to damage one or both engines in aerial combat. landing of course was another story and the jet was a limp dog, reason enough for the Germans to supplant the airfield with literally a huge arsenal of 20mm's


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## lesofprimus (May 17, 2005)

And to supposedly have the greatest fighter that the Axis ever put into the service, the Ta-152, as a guardian top cover.......


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## Erich (May 18, 2005)

Actually no Les...........

the plan for the future of the jet and Germany possibly but the Tank was used or was going to be used to stomp out any P-51 threat when the Ta 152 was to be built in greater numbers....

Sadly for the craft and it's pilots all combats were made at medium altitudes, no jet covers but covering it's own Fw 190Doras and Fw 190A's besides indivdual sweeps

E ~


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## plan_D (May 18, 2005)

Well that was one of the oppurtunities to catch a 262 and the other was when they were slowing to aim. 

Ananian got his kill when they actually tried to dogfight with him, didn't he? Inexperienced KG(J) 54 pilots, bomber 'aces' but no jet experience?

I read on interview with him.


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## Chocks away! (May 18, 2005)

plan_D said:


> The Allied fighters would just wait for them to finish their diving pass on a bomber then dive down on them, when they reach the bottom of the dive the 262 has started pulling up [and slowed down] and the fighter is on top of him and filling him full of lead. Simple.


Unless you were falling to earth with pieces of b-17, b-24, p-47 or p-p1 and feeling rather unpleasant...


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## FLYBOYJ (May 18, 2005)

There's been some grest stuff here! Some more data, a different war...

Here's a list of B-29 Korean War gunner kills. I believe all of them are against Mig-15s. Hope to have more information later this week....

RANK	FIRST_NAME	NAME	VICTORIES	AIR_SERVICE	UNITS
SGT	BILLY G.	BEACH	2	USAF	28BS
SGT	MERLE	GOLF	2	USAF	28BS/19BG
SSGT	MICHAEL R.	MARTOCCHIA	2	USAF	28BS/19BG
SGT	GUS C.	OPFER	2	USAF	3BS
STSGT	JAMES C.	DAVIS	1	USAF	343BS
1STSGT	ERCEL S.	DYE	1	USAF	371BS
CPL	LEONARD B.	EVERSOLE	1	USAF	3BS
STSGT	WILLIAM H.	FINNEGAN	1	USAF	343BS
STSGT	RICHARD W.	FISHER	1	USAF	371BS
SSGT	NORMAN S.	GREENE	1	USAF	28BS
SGT	EARL A.	KANOP	1	USAF	343BS
SGT	HARRY J.	LAVENE	1	USAF	91SRS
SGT	LYLE R.	PATTERSON	1	USAF	3BS
CPL	HARRY E.	RUCH	1	USAF	28BS/19BG
PFC	HARRY E.	RUSH	1	USAF	93BS
TECHSGT	HAROLD M.	SETTERS	1	USAF	344BS
SGT	FRED R.	SPIVEY	1	USAF	371BS
SGT	DAVID R.	STIME	1	USAF	371BS
TSGT	CHARLES W.	SUMMERS	1	USAF	28BS
SGT	ROYAL A.	VEATCH	1	USAF	3BS
STSGT	JERRY M.	WEBB	1	USAF	371BS
SGT	ROBERT A.	WINSLOW	1	USAF	3BS
A1C	ROBERT L.	DAVIS	0,5	USAF	343BS
A1C	ROBERT W.	SMITH	0,5	USAF	343BS

Courtesy of: http://jpgleize.club.fr/aces/korus2.htm


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## lesofprimus (May 18, 2005)

E, I wasnt implying that they were used for this task, but were supposed to be, as u clarified for me...... Thx.........


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## Erich (May 18, 2005)

Viktor, viktor, Ich verstehen Les, no problemo............

trying to read Huie's combat report so I can place it here very soon....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 19, 2005)

Which allied pilot had the most kills against a jet? Also does anyone know of how many He-162's were shot down, if any?


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## Erich (May 19, 2005)

no more that 2 jet kills were recorded by any one pilot in the air. On the ground might be another story....

He 162's have been claimed as well as He 162's killing RAF single engine jobs but frankly I still have not found confirmed evidence. The 162 was a death trap to JG 1 pilots....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 19, 2005)

Yeah thanks, I too have not found anything on the 162 subject that is confirmed.


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## delcyros (May 19, 2005)

There are six claims of He-162 credited kills from which one has been officially confimed by the Luftwaffe (posthum, Kirchner), I posted four of them (all JG-1) in the Me262vsP-80 poll (compare there).
the two other claims are from JV-"Oesau" (..not sure about the designation, but it is not JG-1, it was a proposed basic unit for later HJ flyers):

No.------Name-------------date--------area----------------type----eyewitnesses
#5---OT Adolf Dickfeld----21.4.45----central Germany--P-47----unknown
#6---Lt W.Batz-------------22.4.45----central Germany--P-47----unknown

No official confirmation by Luftwaffe, of course.
As far as I see one He-162 was claimed by RAF Tempests, but there must be more (at least the P-47 which fatally damaged Kirchners He-162).
Verification of these claims is a hard matter, since the losses by 2nd tactical airforce (in case of #1-#4) in the given time and area are much higher than the losses but the reasons my differ. At least R. Schmitts claim of a Typhoon/Tempest was also made by a local 2 cm Vierlingsflak. The P-47 losses relie on the credibility of the claimers (also more losses known), at least kirchners claim maybe correct, since the RAF pilot shot down was captured and interrogated (he confirmed) on May,1st, 45.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 19, 2005)

I would not have enjoyed flying a 162. Plus the whole having to bail out thing with a turbo jet right behind you!


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## delcyros (May 19, 2005)

The He-162 is often misunderstood. It´s a pretty plane. Most accidents (far less than Me-262) can be connected with planes running out of fuel. The bail out is also not very problematic, since the He-162 was one of the first planes to be serial equipped with an ejector seat. You just need to ensure that the canopy is released prior to ejecting.


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## Erich (May 19, 2005)

there has been no confirmation of any He 162 kills by the JG 1 authors, Dr. Jochen Prien nor Eric Mombeek or even the detailed "official keeper" of the kills listing, Hans Ring.

plain and simple the He 162 was a flying pile of crap


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 19, 2005)

I was never to fond of it. I just dont like the whole jet plane being built out of wood!


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## delcyros (May 19, 2005)

Well, not the whole plane was made of wood, the fuselage was metal , the wing and tail was partly made of metal (controll surfaces) and mainly made of wood. According to Eric Brown, an RAF test pilot, who flew most early jets (Meteor MK III, MK IV, D.H. Vampire, Me-262, He-162, P-59 and P-80) the He-162 was the best of them.
I disagree that it is (...more than a Me-262...) a death trap, but we may discuss it on another board if needed.
Official confirmations haven´t made by Luftwaffe (except for Kirchner, but posthumus) for He-162 claims, but there are eyewitnesses in most cases, which implie that it could be. Verification is needed. 
I wonder about Dr. J. Prien that he doesn´t refer to the flight log of Schmitt, which support his claim with an entry "...Tempest effectively shot". Schmitts claim can be connected with a Tempest of No.222 squadron lost by a small jet plane (pilot F.G. Austin KIA) over northwestern Germany at May 4th,1945. Dickfelds claim is also his 136th aerial victory. 
With 5 out of 6 claims unconfirmed and only one confirmed it is easier to disprove one claim than to disprove the other five. However, it´s not that easy, I think.
I found out that F/O Walkington of No.222 squadron (Tempest) on 19th of april strafed Husum airfield (an airfield of JG 1), where he chased a small jet plane. Subsequent analysis of combat records and gun camera film revealed that this airplane was a He-162. One of those rare He-162 kills.


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## Erich (May 19, 2005)

many accidents by JG 1 pilots through the canopy due to faulty ejection seat and canopy release. the He 162 shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread...........


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## delcyros (May 19, 2005)

All planes rushed into combat suffer from technical disadvantages. JG-1 lost 13 He-162, killing 10 pilots. Only 3 of these losses can be connected in anyway with enemy actions (2 kills and one probably), 5 losses by planes running out of fuel, 2 planes by terminal dive, 2 by landing accident and one more because of unknown reasons (probably structural). in 5 known cases the ejection seat was used, at least on two times the canopy failed to relaese automaticly and killing the pilot. Schmitt himself used succesfully the ejection seat (probably running out of fuel on april). Compare this with the losses of Kdo. Nowotny and you will feel more secure in a He-162.


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## Erich (May 19, 2005)

At the time of the He 162 1945, I will surely take the Me 262. there is no comparison

ok back to the jet kills by Allied piston jobs; now where is that fg report I had in my hands ?


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## plan_D (May 19, 2005)

You put it down on the dining table when you went into the kitchen to make a coffee.


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## Mukhulai (May 20, 2005)

Well one mongolian officer shot down an airplane with 2 riffle rounds. A german one. And it is true.


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## Erich (May 20, 2005)

I think I need to to do some editing on this thread............

Huie Lambs report this afternoon and then we can get this thing back on track


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 22, 2005)

What? Now I am lost.


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## Erich (May 22, 2005)

Eagle go back a page. we got sidetracked with the fatal he 162 so Huie's report is coming to fruition this next week along with some others. I think we left off in November/December 44.

have no fear I will list some interesting tidbits, but have two broken ribs that are giving me some problems right now.........got sinch that up


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 22, 2005)

Oh man, sorry about ribs. What the hell did you do to break them?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 22, 2005)

and how bad is it??

i think i speak for all of us when i say i wish you a speedy recovery.........


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## Erich (May 22, 2005)

quite bothersome today on my left side. work accident last week. it figures a day off for me and i feel like crap............

thanks genys


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 22, 2005)

Well get well my friend.


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## Erich (May 22, 2005)

i'm a total space case on meds today.........i'll probably write up Huie's report very late tonight as I probably won't sleep.

E


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 22, 2005)

Enjoy the pills!


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## Erich (Jun 9, 2005)

anyone still interested in this thread ????

back to November and December 44 with Kommando Nowotny, et al.......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 9, 2005)

Yeah we should get back on topic here. Lets see here.....


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 9, 2005)

Oh yea!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 9, 2005)

It has been so long since I posted in this thread that I have to go back and read it all to see where we left off, so I dont post somethign dumb.


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## Erich (Jun 10, 2005)

December 26, 1944 :

action of KG 51 Me 262's with 411 squadron, 1 Me reported as damaged.

on the 27th of December another Me 262 was damaged this time by spits of the RCAF 422nd sq. 

On the 28th P-38's of the 82nd US fg got into it with 1 Me 262 near Augsburg. the 262 made a couple of firign passes on 2 P-38's but without damage and the jet was driven off by another US fighter. 

On the 29th Obfw. Büttner shot down a Mossie of 544th sq. 

On the 30th another Mossie fell to a Me 262 flown by Fw. H. Baudach of III./JG 7, this was NT231 of the 464th sq. 

On the 31st Helmut Baudach again shot down a Allied craft this a P-51 D of the 339th fg Lt. James Mankie, another 339th fg pilot followed Baudach firing and the US pilot was jumped by another 262 and was downed.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 11, 2005)

Erich, please keep this going as much as you can. I am totally fascinated by this subject and really appreciate your research. Many Thanks!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 11, 2005)

Same here I have some pretty good sources for Luftwaffe claims of allied aircraft but I know very little about the subject at hand. Thanks for all of your info Erich!


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## delcyros (Jun 11, 2005)

It´s all great, Erich!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 11, 2005)

Great pic there of a 262 getting shot down. Is that speck to the upper right of the aircraft the pilot bailing out.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 11, 2005)

bit small for that isn't it??

and can i just point out that picture is copywrited.........


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 11, 2005)

Duh...he said he couldnt find the source...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 11, 2005)

would you say that to Erich?? i don't think so, please don't talk to me like that......


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 11, 2005)

The fact it copyrighted makes no difference at the moment, Del is not trying to claim it as his own, and if the owner wishes for it to be removed then removed it shall be...


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## delcyros (Jun 11, 2005)

After some additional time at google...and some good wine...
Take a look at www.web-birds.com/8th/339/gun/gun.html
There are others like those:


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 11, 2005)

Great pic! 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 11, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> bit small for that isn't it??



Actually if you look at the pic it is not really the greatest quality of photo, it very well could be and the thats all that you can see, Smart Ass!


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## delcyros (Jun 11, 2005)

An interesting detail of the first picture is that, beside of the large debris, the fuselage fuel tank is hit and there is no fire. The reasons are following: 
1.) The fuel tanks and the engines are not in one line (unlike the Vampire, Me-163 or P-80)
2.) the ignition temp. of the low grade german jet fuel (close to Diesel) is high
3.) the jumo-004 B don´t have such a high exhaust temp.
A P-80 in this situation would be a burning fireball, interesting.


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## delcyros (Jun 11, 2005)

The small black thing, probably was kind of debris in the first picture, Adler. Another picture from the same guncam shootage showing Lt. Schulte ejecting at pretty low alt. According to the website, he was intercepted at take off by Capt. Robert F. Sargent from the 339th FG, 504th fighter squad in the near of Kaltenkirchen.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 11, 2005)

Aha thanks for the clarification.


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## Erich (Jun 11, 2005)

1st of January onward through the week. some very strange stuff that I will record. Typically overshadowed by Unternehmen Bodenplatte attack on the airfields, disaster for many Luftwaffe pilot both experienced and non.....

more


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 11, 2005)

Cant wait.


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## Chocks away! (Jun 11, 2005)

Hey these were taken from the same shoot down CC 8) 
(reverse order  )


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 12, 2005)

Cool pics! 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 13, 2005)

Yeah I like them.

Does anyone know of an exact ammount of jet fighters shot down by piston engined aircraft. Since the P-80 and the Meteor did not have any aerial kills obviously the aerial shoot downs were from piston engine aircraft however I am sure many were shot down by AA and such or simply lost by mechanical failure or mistakes.


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## Erich (Jun 13, 2005)

yes but cross checking with known German sources can be difficualt as well as US/RAF claims to actual German jet losses. I have a ton of stuff and like I said in another thread back in the 1960's is when I was hunting for info on the 262, the US pilots were open to sharing info but it was not till early 1980's that the German chaps started opening up......several had been living under the Soviet thumb on the eastern side of Deutschland 

the reason for starting or evaluating the day by day events of props vs jets. yes this could be 50 pages in length minimum. I am translating some German source info at present between work on the first week of January right now............

another book just relased in the UK Classic Pubs 2nd TAF volume 2 which covers the multi national Allied force over Germany from August 44 till after Bodenplatte in january 45. Volume 3 will really be interesting and cover the Allied projections in the Sptis, Tempests taking on the 262/Ar 234, but that maybe next year in arriving.

ok more still to come.............also a little reminder, the pics that have been shown are copyrighted through the 339th fg association and although been available on the web-birds aviation web-site are still copyrighted material and may not be shown without prior consent of Jim as well as the 339th fg Assoc. Let's put it another way shall we. Jim has aksed the chaps of the 339th fg to share pics which he his plenty and they were entitled for his site only. I'll have some more on this as I know one of the pilots, a 262 killer and he is the assoc. newsletter rep, Steve Ananian


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## Erich (Jun 13, 2005)

Depending on the sources cross checked, with most claims by the 2nd TAF, the Raf claimed 34 jets damaged and 32 jets destroyed. Am assuming this was also on airfield strafes.

US army air force claimed from 28th of August 1944 till February 25th 1945 :

39 jets damaged
33 jets destroyed.

obviously many damaged on the ground as well as toasted on the airfields.

again these are claims and we are trying our best to substantiate the claims with true Luftwaffe pilot/aircraft losses if they can be found. this is only an inking of the ones claimed by US AF. There are indeed 39 more dates of claims till war's end. As for the Soviets I do not have much of anything but I think 4 were claimed as destroyed. It maybe less than this.....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 13, 2005)

Since he killed some 262's maybe you can get him on here to shed some light and post some experiences.


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## Erich (Jun 13, 2005)

Steve A. wrote me a lengthy reply some years back and we have also chatted on the phone so when I come to the date where he bagged a jet I will include this. think it would be best to hae something like this thread for a chronological order of things with anyone adding their two cents. most pics obviously are from the spring of 45 as the jets were becoming the standard Luftw. fighter encountered with many prop jobs on the Ost front. I have some intersteing March/April 1945 bomber crew interviews on jet attacks on their bomber boxes coming up later


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 13, 2005)

Would be great if you would post them.


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## Erich (Jul 7, 2005)

just a note I haven't forgotten this thread. just need some time and it maybe August before I can pull out resources and deluge this thing to no end 8) 

Horrido !


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 7, 2005)

No problem take your time, you know we always look foward to what ever you have.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 7, 2005)

Erich said:


> just a note I haven't forgotten this thread. just need some time and it maybe August before I can pull out resources and deluge this thing to no end 8)
> 
> Horrido !



Great! In the mean time I throw some tid-bids in here as well. Always appreciate your inputs Erich!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 7, 2005)

You better throw some tidbits in FBJ, you always have good info "old man"!


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 7, 2005)

Thanks!


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## Erich (Jul 7, 2005)

lets just make sure that we start where we left off please....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 10, 2005)

Agreed


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## vanir (Jul 23, 2005)

That sounds pretty much like what I've read. At least one USAAF P-47 intercept of Me262's mentioned how lucky he was to catch a pair of A2's down low and slow, probably short on fuel. As soon as his .50's let them know he was diving on them, the one he didn't flame took off, climbing at a speed he couldn't hope to match and disappeared.

And I thought the majority of of Me262 fatalities were groundfire, misadventure and bomber's guns and ground attack aircraft, the greater portion of those shot down by fighters were at their airfields before those wrongly assigned high altitude Focke Wulf things were stationed to protect them when they were vulnerable (they could've used F-8's or Gustavs for that and let the whatchamacallits do their high altitude intercept job).

It's been a long while since I've read all this stuff though so I don't trust my memory too precisely.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 23, 2005)

well you're right for the most part, most -262s were shot down on take of and landing when they're lowest and slowest.........


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## plan_D (Jul 23, 2005)

_"whatchamacallits"_

Ta-152...


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 23, 2005)

I love the Aussie ability to invent new words! 

(Kidding.  )


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## plan_D (Jul 23, 2005)

I'll have you know Britain has been using that "word" for a long-long time. The Australians are a little slow on the uptake, so it's new to them.  


(No joke)


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 23, 2005)

Well thank you very much, mister fun spoiler! 
It's actually a pretty popular word over here too, along with "doo-jigger" and "thing-a-mah-jiggy".


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## vanir (Jul 23, 2005)

Your wife doesn't seem to think so, Plan_D.


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## plan_D (Jul 23, 2005)

First off, I don't have a wife. And shut the fuck up, then grow up. There's no place for stupid crap jokes here. Next you'll be coming out with "Your momma" jokes...


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 23, 2005)

> There's no place for stupid crap jokes here



Then why are you here?


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## plan_D (Jul 23, 2005)

We could say the same for you, CC.


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 23, 2005)

Yeah you could, it wouldnt bother me a bit, like it doesnt bother you a bit. Not making poor assumptions of vanir or anything, but hes just signed up and who knows how he'll take it? Im sure it'll be fine, he seems a friendly happy sorta chappy, but that was bit harsh in my opnion D. He was just making a friendly joke.


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## plan_D (Jul 23, 2005)

It was a crap "friendly" joke.


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 23, 2005)

Aw, c'mon now guys. 8)


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## plan_D (Jul 23, 2005)

Awwww, crap, I think I just wet me-self!


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 23, 2005)

I _did_ wet myself


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 23, 2005)

Good! Now I won't have to pop a cap in yo' ass!


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## vanir (Jul 23, 2005)




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## plan_D (Jul 23, 2005)

With have another Davidicus! What happened to him anyway!?!


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 23, 2005)

I don't know. He may just be on vacation or something.

Oh and vanir, we've had to deal with petty flame wars before so...


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## vanir (Jul 23, 2005)

> I'll have you know Britain has been using that "word" for a long-long time. The Australians are a little slow on the uptake, so it's new to them.
> 
> 
> (No joke)


Talking to the wrong person Nonskimmer. I started nothing, responded with no more than a laugh and pictures.


> And shut the f**k up, then grow up. There's no place for stupid crap jokes here.


I considered a picture of "eat shit" to be a thoughtful response. It was a smart crap joke.

If I had any intentions of furthering or causing more argument from the whelp, I'd have posted something more along the lines of:


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## plan_D (Jul 23, 2005)

First off, the first post of mine was a joke. You'll have a hard time here if you can't take nation bashing. 

Secondly the wife joke, you made - which was remarkably lame - brought up my second post. Since any "Your momma" or "I had your wife" crap is stupid, then it was well founded. 

And you're late on the last one, it's already been used on this forum before during a picture war between Davidicus and I. 

I would advise you to read a few past posts to learn who you're dealing with.


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 23, 2005)

Alright, alright, I can see that the humour has rapidly left this whole thing.
Vanir take a f*cking pill, and PD stop flying off at every damn response that someone makes to your "jokes"!

Everybody happy now?


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## plan_D (Jul 23, 2005)

No! I want a lolly!


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 23, 2005)

How about a slap in the head?  


(Uh-huh, that was a joke.  )


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## plan_D (Jul 23, 2005)

That's it! This calls for Mexico City.


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 23, 2005)

Awww, shit! Adler, I need some advice on this one.


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## plan_D (Jul 23, 2005)

Yeah, he killed me.


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 23, 2005)

Ummm...well...welcome back to the living then...


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## vanir (Jul 24, 2005)

> First off, the first post of mine was a joke. You'll have a hard time here if you can't take nation bashing.
> 
> Secondly the wife joke, you made - which was remarkably lame - brought up my second post. Since any "Your momma" or "I had your wife" crap is stupid, then it was well founded.
> 
> ...


Oh I think I'm getting quite enough of an impression of your personality right here. Why are you still talking to me, mate? If you had the slightest intention of meaning well or at least not trying to be offensive...





If you'd learn to just let things be in the first place you'd probably find that nobody had taken offence to you, thus negating the need you seem to feel in taking offence, in turn to them and so on ad nausium.

But now, your head offends me yes. I think you're a blatant jerk who sucks himself too much.
You seem to do the same thing to other posters I've noticed. A simple misunderstanding with them, the moment it's established you immediately talk down with capitalisations and patronisation. Dudes with language and cultural differences for chrissake.
You could say, oh never mind I don't really see it the way you do...but no, you start patronising and turn losing a bit of face into an all out bashing. You're a twerp mate, looking for fights.

I just pray your attitude is identical in life, it'll keep a little smile on my face knowing how that one's going to turn out for you.


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## plan_D (Jul 24, 2005)

_"...you're a blatant jerk..."_

I'll have you know, I'm an asshole and damn proud of it. But we can't be right first time everytime.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 24, 2005)




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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 24, 2005)




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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 24, 2005)

and vanir, you're getting it easy compared to me


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 24, 2005)

Well...it's good to see that I'm being taken seriously around here. 

Now that you've got that off your chest vanir, can we *please* carry on here folks? Vanir and PD, I want you guys to kiss and make up now. Go on - kiss! 

 

*Seriously fellas, drop it here and now please.*


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## plan_D (Jul 25, 2005)

I considered as dropped, that's why I made the joke.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 25, 2005)

Alright lets stop with the dumb picture crap okay. Lets be adults here.

(Notice I am not applying this to any one person it is a blanket statement, just incase for some people)


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 25, 2005)

I like mine. I made 'em myself. That's right. Me. 
Ok, ok, I'm clamming up now. 

So...where were we anyway?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 25, 2005)

I dont know.

I just get tired of the "Your Gay", "Eat Shit", "How About A Cup of Shut The Fuck UP" pictures when they are posted over and over.


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 25, 2005)

That's why I made me own. I prefer to tell 'em myself, y'know? 
The personal touch. 

Okay!...Quick, someone get us back on topic!


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## cheddar cheese (Jul 25, 2005)

But I dont know anything about the topic 
_*But I dont know anything*_


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## plan_D (Jul 26, 2005)

Not true; you know that you don't know anything. But if you knew that, you'd know something; so then you'd be wrong and you wouldn't know anything.


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## Jabberwocky (Jul 26, 2005)

Here is a record of all aerial kills made by Tempests against jets.


13 Oct Me262 1 3 P/O R.W. Cole (JN868) Grave UFFZ Edmund Delatowski, 9K+ FL of 3/KG51

3 Nov Me262 1 122W W/C J.B. Wray JBW (EJ750) Venraj-Geldern OBFW Willi Banzhaff, 3/Kdo Nowotny

19 Nov Me262 
1/2 486 P/O O.D. Eagleson
1/2 F/L Taylor-Cannon (JN858)
(EJ828) Rheine Delatowski, 9K+ FL of 3/KG51

3 Dec Me262 1 80 F/O J.W. Garland (EJ722) 4 m S Rheine 9K+BH of I/KG(J) 51,
Oblt Joachim Valet

17 Dec Me262 1 122W W/C J.B. Wray JBW (EJ750) Near Wesel 9K+BP of II/KG(J) 51,
Lt Wolfgang L�bke

25 Dec Me262 
1/2 486 F/O J.H. Stafford
P/O R.D. Bremner (EJ625)
SA-D (JN803) Aachen area FW Wilhelm Wilkenloh, 1/JG7

23 Jan Me262 1/2
1/2 56 F/L F.L. MacLeod
F/O R.V. Dennis US-S (EJ663)
US-M (EJ778) Paderborn area OBLT Hans Holzwarth, 12/KG51

11 Feb Ar234B 1 274 S/L D.C. Fairbanks (NV645) Rheine airfield 1(F)/123, Hpt Hans Felden

2 Mar Ar234 1 222 F/L G.W. Varley ZD-E (EJ882) 5 m E Lingen FI + QT of 9/KG(J),
Lt Eberhard R�gele

14 Mar Ar234 1/2
1/2 222 F/L L. McAuliffe airfield
F/O D.G.C. McCleland (NV774)
ZD-X (NV670) N Quakenbr�ck 

15 April Ar234 1/2
1/2 56 F/L N.D. Cox
F/L J.A. McCairns US-G (NV968)
US-E (NV786) Kaltenkirchen airfield

19 April He162 1 222 F/O G. Walkington (SN185) Husum I/JG 1

25 April Me262 1 486 F/O K.A. Smith SA-Q (EJ711) L�beck

[/u]


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## vanir (Jul 26, 2005)

Nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat, aye? Aye?
Say no more, say no more.


Nudge nudge, wink wink, snap snap, grin grin...aye? Aye?
Say no more, say no more.


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## vanir (Jul 26, 2005)

*ahem* (excuse me)


Um, didn't KG51 get reformed into one of the fighter groups like JG7 when their pilots were pulled out of bombers and put in Me262's?


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## Erich (Jul 27, 2005)

gents my mtneering trip wnet sour in a big way, but I will not get into that. I am not at home just yet, in fact out of state for antoher three days and borrowing a pc.

KG 51 also had 109's at their disposal and the jet stafflen first performed fighter bomber missions before becoming ..... as an example II.KG(J.)51 a bomber/fighter interceptor unit. The gruppe and the I. gruppe also performed bomber missions till wars end. Bomber pilots with insufficient fighter combat experience were shot down in droves in 1945. More on this thread when I return.

Ich steige aus !

E ~


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## evangilder (Jul 27, 2005)

SOunds like you had something bad happen on your trip. I hope you are okay.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 28, 2005)

Yeah hope everything is okay Erich. Keep us posted.


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## Erich (Jul 28, 2005)

still here at my dads for one more day enjoying 100F plus degree weather............Puke !  just touching up all my mosquito bites of which I am slightly allergic too. Oh whoopie. ready to head back to Oregon on the morrow and home sweet home and my babe'

E


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## Medvedya (Jul 30, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> Vanir and PD, I want you guys to kiss and make up now. Go on - kiss!



And with a hint of some tongue too if you please!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 31, 2005)




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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 31, 2005)

Oh god here we go again.


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## Nonskimmer (Jul 31, 2005)

I'm staying out of it this time. :-"


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 31, 2005)

Yeah same here.


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## Erich (Jul 31, 2005)

dang this thread is going way OOT. where were we anyway ? Janaury of 45 or something like that ?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 1, 2005)

thank god you're here to stop this!


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 1, 2005)

Erich said:


> dang this thread is going way OOT. where were we anyway ? Janaury of 45 or something like that ?



Thanks Erich, yes, Jan 45. Jabberwocky gave us some Tempest kills.


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## jrk (Aug 3, 2005)

before anyone jumps on me i know this isnt a confirmed jet kill to a piston engined pilot.

however it is a jet pilots observation comment to a piston engined aircraft

"The Messerschmitt Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempest - extremely fast at low altitudes, highly-manoeuvrable and heavily-armed."
(Hubert Lange, Me262 pilot) 





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Aug 3, 2005)

i'd say that's about right..........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 3, 2005)

I can agree with it especially since the 262 was so vunerable on the ground.


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## jrk (Aug 6, 2005)

i think the comment is made in the context of if the tempest was below 20000 ft and caught the me 262 the jet would be more sluggish at such an altitude that the tempest pilot had a good opportunity to get a long and accurate burst in to do enough damage to bring the jet down.height would be the advantage held to the me 262 over the tempest.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 7, 2005)

You are correct. The 262 performed the best at high alltitudes which is where it did its best work against the bombers.


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## jrk (Sep 1, 2005)

The He-162 finally began to see combat in mid-April. On 19 April, the pilot of a British Royal Air Force (RAF) fighter who had been captured by the Germans informed his interrogators that he had been shot down by a jet fighter, whose description was clearly that of a He-162. The Heinkel and its pilot were lost as well, shot down by an RAF Tempest fighter on the way back to base.


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## Erich (Sep 1, 2005)

interesting as JG 1's diary mentions no kills claimed by He 162 pilots and the pilot you mention on the 19th of April was in combat with P-47's. Crashing his yellow 2 near Klintum. Researching.........fun and frustrating. I./JG 1 lost 10 pilots killed, 1 missing with the brunt on pilot error and a/c mechanical problems


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## elmilitaro (Sep 1, 2005)

Nicely said Erich.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 3, 2005)

Didn't that stupid French pilot claim he shot one down but we have all come to conclusion that he was lieing?


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## jrk (Sep 7, 2005)

flight lieutenant john garland DFC canadian tempest pilot shot down 1 me 262.

garland was shot down by flak in february 1945 and became a pow.




flying officer keith alexander smith new zealand tempest pilot shot down an me 262 date unknown?




squadron leader harvey sweetman DFC new zealand tempest pilot claimed an me 262 shot down on 26th november 1944.




squadron leader david fairbanks DFC american tempest pilot claimed an arado ar234 shot down on 11th february 1945


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## elmilitaro (Sep 7, 2005)

Wow, where did you get this this information from jrk? Maybe I could learn a couple of new things.


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## Erich (Sep 7, 2005)

why don't you simply go to the first page and start reading. I'm still going to get this thing going again with the 1st of January 45 instead of everyone poking this out of order, though I appreciate jrk using this as a reminder


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## elmilitaro (Sep 7, 2005)

SORRY!!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 8, 2005)

Well lets see, maybe we can come up with a cronological list, but it would probably be too long to make.


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## Erich (May 23, 2006)

ah ha I found you long lost mysterious thread.......

I'll be back . . . . swoosh eine Schwalbe


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## davparlr (May 23, 2006)

Hey, this reminds me of some gun camera snaps of an F-18 shootind down an F-22! Probably some similar gun camera snaps from a piston engined aircraft with a jet flashing by. Unless the jet was landing or the pilot stupid enough to sucked into low energy combat.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 24, 2006)

Erich said:


> ah ha I found you long lost mysterious thread.......
> 
> I'll be back . . . . swoosh eine Schwalbe


I hope so Erich, this was great stuff - I hope you come up with more info!!!


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## Erich (May 24, 2006)

got a note this morn that the W. Groce Me 262 kill is coming to me shortly to post up - from November 44 along with the Gerbe acct.
back to Janaury 45 soon .....


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## Erich (May 24, 2006)

losses of 32 Me 262's for the month of January 1945

1-1-45 : 

9./JG 7 Lt Wolfgang Oswald MIA from combat op.
9./JG 7 Lt. Heinrich Lonnecker shot down and KIA west of Fassberg by Allied fighters
11./JG 7 Uffz. Detjens (still alive today) crash-landed near Fassberg after combat op flight; undercarriage malfunction and returned to base.
III./JG 7 crashed near Ulzen, the pilot was safe. possibly Lt. Weber with Detjens

on 1-1-45 an Allied report stated that 2 Me 262's of I./KG(J) 51 were reported to have been shot down by AA near Gilze-Rijn but no confirmation through the German unit has ever been noted.

US forces were the 4th fighter group operating Mustangs an acting as withdrawl support for the bombers this date. Lt. F. Young reported a jet shot down near Ulzen at 12.30hrs (Lonnecker) and Lt. Donald Pierine claimed another 262. Pierines claim report was trashed and non confirmed . . . .


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## Twitch (May 26, 2006)

Well here's a few easy to locate prop/jet kills I researched for an article a few years ago:

John Meyer in P-51D shot down an Arado 234 December 31, 1944
Gordon Compton in P-51D killed an Me 262 April 10, 1945
Thomas Hayes in P-51D got a 262 April 19, 1945
Thedore Sedvert in P-51D downed a 262 March 2, 1945
Don Cummings in P-51D scored 2 Me 262s February 25, 1945
Ray Wetmore P-51D killed an Me 163 March 15, 1945
John Murphy P-51D got a 163 on August 16, 1944
Urben Drew P-51D got 2 Me 262s on October 7, 1944
Hubert Zemke P-51D got a 262 October 7, 1944
Lt. Groce P-47D scored a 262 date unknown
James Kenney P-51D got a 262 flown by Franz Schall November 8, 1944
Chuch Yeager in P-51D scored an Me 262 November 6, 1944
Robert Foy P-51D got a 262 March 19, 1945
Richard Hewitt P-51D awarded Me 262 in 2003 date of kill unknown


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## Erich (May 26, 2006)

As Walter Groce is a friend of mine living to my north in Oregon he is already covered, and I have covered freind **** Hewitt as well with his two confirmed jet kills, his first of that date in 45 was ace Hans Grüneberg bailing out in the last seconds to save his rear, the other I./JG 7 pilot was KIA all near the air field of Prague-Ruzyne.

Hub Zemkes/Benoits kill was 7 of October 44.


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## Twitch (May 30, 2006)

Well I didn't go back for 16 pages of looking for these guys. Most of these are from American Fighter Aces organization album.

BTW- I found you can't use the dimutive for Richard which is Dickk without the 2nd k. WTF!


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## lesofprimus (May 30, 2006)

A couple shots Ive had forever....


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Jun 1, 2006)

Yeah, I believe that Chuck Yeager shot down a 262 when it tried to land.


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## Twitch (Jun 1, 2006)

It was called rat catching, attacking 262s on take off or landing runs since they were the most vulnerable at that time. The reality is most 262 kills were made in this manner.


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## Erich (Jun 1, 2006)

1945 is getting coverd so please hold off the late spring of the year comments ok ? Rat Catching is coverd earlier when this was started up so I am advising for your reading pleasure to read past posts so this will not be a repeat

2 of January 45 no losses without any operations

3 of Janauary 45

Lt. Erich Kaiser is lost flying a 262A-2a from 2./KG(J)51 during a flight in the area of Lingen/Ems.
439 Typhoon squadron mix it up with Me 262A-2a's from KG 51 but no claims reported.
Major Rudi Sinner takes over command of Stab III./JG 7 from ace Erich Hohagen and moves with 11th staffel to Brandenburg-Briest. 9th staffel goes to Parchim and 10th staffel goes to Oranienburg. Theo Weissenberger takes over as CO of JG 7 from Macky Steinhoff and then the fun begins . . . . then the revenge on "FATTY"


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## Erich (Jun 1, 2006)

5 January 45

pressing concerns by the US heavy bombardment generals of the continuation of the sightings of Jets in the air and that top priority for the US heavy bombers to plaster all Me 262/jet production and facilities.

another gruppe added to KG(J) 54's arsenal, not that it is going to help them much .............

6 Janaury no jet ops
7 January 10./EJG 2 pilot Unteroffizier Helmut Schmidt is injured during a crash of his Me 262 during landing approach. III./EJG 2 receives it's new Gruppenkommandeur Obst.Leutnant Heinz Bär.
8 January no jet ops but a silly order for the jabos of KG 51, with their jets to break up US P-47 formations to make them drop their bombs early ...........
9 Janaury no jet ops
10 Janaury 12 Me 262's from I./KG 51 support ground units around Hagenau. 2 pilots crash land their 262's one made out alive the last one killed.
11 Janaury no jet ops
12 Janaury 10./EJG 2 pilot Gefreiter Ferd Sagmeister killed near Kleinaitingen. (sp. ?)


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## Gnomey (Jun 1, 2006)

Yep, that was the easiest way for allied pilots to catch 262's either on take-off or landing. Here is a painting of Yeager's jet kill...


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## Udet (Jun 4, 2006)

What the hell...

Gnomey, are you positive on this? So is that painting showing the alleged "jet kill" claimed by that loud mouth?


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## Erich (Jun 4, 2006)

Chuck Y. shot up this Kommando Nowotny jet and it crash-landed given as a kill to Chuck. Chuck also damaged 2 other jets before this incident on the same November 44 date while in combat. The jets were obviously overwhelmed by numbers of 357th fg Stangs


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## V-1710 (Jun 5, 2006)

I think a Skyraider pilot got a Mig in Vietnam. Can't remember the exact circumstances, but I think he got jumped during a ground attack run. The Mig overshot the AD-1 just in time for the panicked Spad pilot to pull up and let everything loose. I mean everything. Ouch!


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 5, 2006)

V-1710 said:


> I think a Skyraider pilot got a Mig in Vietnam. Can't remember the exact circumstances, but I think he got jumped during a ground attack run. The Mig overshot the AD-1 just in time for the panicked Spad pilot to pull up and let everything loose. I mean everything. Ouch!


Actually 2 skyraiders shared the kill...

http://skyraider.org/skyassn/sartapes/migkill/migkill.htm


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 5, 2006)

Udet said:


> What the hell...
> 
> Gnomey, are you positive on this? So is that painting showing the alleged "jet kill" claimed by that loud mouth?


I agree about him being a big mouth - but he did get the kill.


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## Gnomey (Jun 5, 2006)

I also agree on him being a loud mouth. As for the kill I am not sure, it is a painting I have had on my computer for a long time and so can't remember the source.


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## Erich (Jun 5, 2006)

hmmm I just gave you Chuck Y's scenario. He got a confirmed and 2 others damaged in Nov. 44


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 5, 2006)

Erich said:


> hmmm I just gave you Chuck Y's scenario. He got a confirmed and 2 others damaged in Nov. 44


That you did!!
Erich - to me you're word is golden! 

If I get a chance I'm going to start going through these and place them in chronological order.


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## R Leonard (Jun 5, 2006)

> I think a Skyraider pilot got a Mig in Vietnam. Can't remember the exact circumstances, but I think he got jumped during a ground attack run. The Mig overshot the AD-1 just in time for the panicked Spad pilot to pull up and let everything loose. I mean everything. Ouch!



http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/piston-engine-aircraft-jet-kills-1226-2.html


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## pbfoot (Jun 5, 2006)

Yeager was a typical pilot he talked the talk but better then that he walked the walk he is the atypical fighter pilot better yet a supreme pilot


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 5, 2006)

pbfoot said:


> Yeager was a typical pilot he talked the talk but better then that he walked the walk he is the atypical fighter pilot better yet a supreme pilot


I had the pleasure of meeting him a few times, one of those lovely occasions he totally insulted and embarrassed a safety guy at the Edwards AFB aero club (the guy was an F-16 driver, test pilot and a USAF Major). It's one thing to be proud of your achievements (and there's no denying Yeager's place in aviation history) but there's another thing when you act like an arrogant @ss and insult people who politely bring up a safety issue (Yeager must of thought he was being second guessed, this Major was even humble and respectful after the insults) and I seen this behavior from him more than once.


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## Udet (Jun 5, 2006)

Gentlemen, good evening:

8th Air Force veterans who fought in the war, against the same enemy, told me the man is a consuetudinary liar. Age has only come to worsen that particular condition.

Usually I do not bother much in scrutinizing the records of USAAF fighter aces.

If I´m going to analyze the claims/victories/losses of the USAAF I move on the squadron or fighter group level rather than putting my eyes on one specific pilot.

I do not find the individual records of any allied pilot impressive, at all. Impressive...you know what I mean with impressive; you know their names and their scores.

So how was it that I first came across the name of this "pop-star" who has a painting of his "jet kill"? Precisely, because of the words of veterans of the 8th Air Force (and of an interview they showed me, where he ridicules German pilots, their tactics and planes).

It´d not surprise me to hear that lunatic sent a request this painting to be included in the galleries of the Louvre in Paris.

Some of his kills -as claimed by him- are not true, and the funniest thing of them all: the man got duly surpassed in combat and went down flying a "superb-perfect-flawless-out of this world" Mustang. 

Cheers!

P.S. Ah! From the expression on the face of the man during the interview it was easy to detect the man can not deal with the fact he got surpassed in combat and went downwards, and that the fact several dozens of thousands of USSAF pilots and airmen simply took off to never be seen again still haunts him.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 6, 2006)

Udet said:


> Gentlemen, good evening:
> 
> 8th Air Force veterans who fought in the war, against the same enemy, told me the man is a consuetudinary liar. Age has only come to worsen that particular condition.
> 
> ...


While it could be said that Yeager is a bit of a major @ss there is no reason to undermine or deny his actual combat record, that's been confirmed and verified by many (on both sides) who didn't even like the man for the same reasons I've given. At the same time I know your feelings about allied pilots and your points about the actual effectiveness of the Luftwaffe when dealing with the RAF and the USAAF, but remember this; many a Luftwaffe experten themselves became experten with regards to the functional requirements of parachutes and egress systems, and those who had the luck or skill to survive the war are still very brave men in my book and it doesn't undermine their skill or courage no matter how many times they found themselves floating helplessly while a sky full of P-51s zoomed past them. Scrutinize the allied airforces of WW2, their over-exaggeration of their victories and those who might blindly glorify them 60 years later but remember the last words spoken by Field Marshal Griem on May 24, 1945 - "but I have no Luftwaffe." And there will never be a denail, debut or doubt of that fact..


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## wmaxt (Jun 6, 2006)

I agree Flyboy!

wmaxt


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## Udet (Jun 6, 2006)

well i disagree with flyboy (and with mr. wmaxt); cant type much now, but will get back to you later.


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## wmaxt (Jun 6, 2006)

Udet said:


> well i disagree with flyboy (and with mr. wmaxt); cant type much now, but will get back to you later.



Udet, was there even 1 German ace that never had to jump out of his aircraft? If so, who is it? 

wmaxt


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 6, 2006)

Udet said:


> Gentlemen, good evening:
> 
> 8th Air Force veterans who fought in the war, against the same enemy, told me the man is a consuetudinary liar. Age has only come to worsen that particular condition.



Can you please list names and sources because you allways say you have talked to people, but never list names and sources.


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## Erich (Jun 6, 2006)

there were crap pilots from all nations with a bad attitude during the war and after the war. Some have higher egos than others and should be ignored.

Geez Yaeger is his own man just like Günther Rall whom I was not impressed with. Urban Drew was another that thought he was hot sh**, and yet I know several other P-51 aces that are the kindest guys around giving of themselves and believe it or not still seeking the truth of what really happend during the war with cases of claims of Me 262's; the same as several other notable Luftwaffe vets that I have come to know.

bottom line the jets just the same as their Kameraden in the prop jobs 109/190's did their job as best they could, some with success others like my cousin a bare 1-2 missions and then killed in action. The US flyers knew perfectly well they had the upper hand with equipment and the numbers game and they pushed the envelope as much as was possible in the destruction of the Luftwaffe day fighter force


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 6, 2006)

Exactly Erich.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 6, 2006)

Bravo Erich!


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## Gnomey (Jun 6, 2006)

Good post Erich!


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## Udet (Jun 10, 2006)

mr. flyboy, hi

"While it could be said that Yeager is a bit of a major @ss there is no reason to undermine or deny his actual combat record, that's been confirmed and verified by many (on both sides) who didn't even like the man for the same reasons I've given. At the same time I know your feelings about allied pilots and your points about the actual effectiveness of the Luftwaffe when dealing with the RAF and the USAAF, but remember this; many a Luftwaffe experten themselves became experten with regards to the functional requirements of parachutes and egress systems, and those who had the luck or skill to survive the war are still very brave men in my book and it doesn't undermine their skill or courage no matter how many times they found themselves floating helplessly while a sky full of P-51s zoomed past them. Scrutinize the allied airforces of WW2, their over-exaggeration of their victories and those who might blindly glorify them 60 years later but remember the last words spoken by Field Marshal Griem on May 24, 1945 - "but I have no Luftwaffe." And there will never be a denail, debut or doubt of that fact.."


i like the true diplomatic fashion of your comment here, thank you; now, what you are basically saying there is "no matter what you might say, the allies won and the germans you love so much lost."

from what i know flyboy, in the post-war era the airplane kills as claimed by german fighter pilots overcame fierce scrutiny and doubts, and they did remarkably well. the western allies can not claim the same thing. (soviet military air force not included there though, for those guys have lived inside a bubble eversince)

you are correct. it´s very true german field commanders and their soldiers complained about the lack of air cover during the last year of the war, a fact that can be easily detected in most german accounts and war memories published. 

that such a thing is correct does not mean the Luftwaffe did not exist flyboy -although there are some exceptions when the luftwaffe provided air support to the wehrmacht like the winter battles in the Ardennes in late 1944-. 

to give you an idea the luftwaffe was present, the order of battle for two very important Luftwaffe units in the first week of January, 1945: 

stab, I., II., III. and IV./ JG 300 and stab., I. and III./ JG 301 altogether fielded some 300 fighters (with more than 75% operational). only 2 units which were very powerful when 1945 commenced. 

the point being, where was the bulk of the jagdwaffe while german troops were fighting most of the times without air support in the last year of the war, especially throughout 1944? 

trying to deal with the streams of heavy bombers hitting the reich, and the romanian oil fields in Ploesti -obviously, before the collapse of romania in 1944-.

they opted for the enemy heavy bombers.

that the luftwaffe was fighting a losing -or lost- battle it´s true for that period of the war; but the Luftwaffe was very active, virtually non-stop combat, on a daily basis, many times inflicting horrible losses to the USAAF while taking their own for sure, horrific on some battles.

it showed the limits of the german military though, the enemy was so large and was striking from so many places (8th and 15th air forces) they were simply unable to provide adequate and sufficient air support to their troops.



wmaxt, hi

my answer to your question? i do not know; it´d not surprise me to find out the number of german aces who never had to bale out was high. i do know many of them had to bale out one or many times though. but what´s new about this?

a digression, i do not care about that individual yeager; i was simply told by some of his fellow airmen the man is a liar. a man with such score should not deserve that sort of limelight though. do not intend to heat up with this.

it´s not a competition to see what pilots had to bale out the most wmaxt; rather it´s an attempt to make fun -or even ridicule- the words of a man who simply can not control his tongue.

try to answer this wmaxt: there is a boxing match, *udet vs. wmaxt. we get in a ring and the fight begins. you completely kick the living crap out of me. the referee had to stop the match in round 4. udet has both eyes badly bruised, 3 broken ribs, swollen lips, his nose bleeds and a few hours after the combat he urinates blood in his hotel room.

then guess what? next weeks interviews of me are published on the main newspapers where i "ridicule" you as a fighter. i tell the reporter you do not know how to punch, you lack technique, you are a weak fighter....what about that wmaxt? 

well, that´s exactly the thing with that pop-star of the usaaf. got beaten, and shot down. people like him should fill out a job application form for a circus. they are fun 

now wmaxt, that the man was a liar does not mean he was a bad pilot. you know that very well. he just had some pathological urge to get attention on him.

you know that if some german experte had to bale out 2, 3 or 10 times that does not make him a bad pilot. 

also you know there were hundreds and hundreds of experten who remained in combat for 3, 4 or 5 years of non-stop war, many died during the war, many others saw the end of the conflict. that´s intense, many of the guys in here who have served in the armies of their nations could tell better than anyone about what it would be like to remain in war for such a period of time, with little if any rest. (i know you acknowledge this as well)

the same applies for the experten and newer pilots who served in Kommando Nowotny, JV 44 and JG 7, to name some of the units who were equipped with jets.

so keeping that in mind, USAAF fighter pilots (who fought under diametrically opposed conditions -fixed number of missions then go home-) that got shot down by the Luftwaffe do not fare better in this department wmaxt.

cheers*


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 11, 2006)

Agree and sympathize with the force the Luftwaffe had to deal with in late 44, early 45...


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## lesofprimus (Jun 11, 2006)

Yea, but that fact has been known to the majority of us "Buffs" for many many years.... I've met Yeager before, a couple of times, and the man was a buffoon.... My Grandfather actually got into an argument with him and called him several expletives, including liar....

Mr Yeager could care less about anyones assessment of his accomplishments... His own assessment of himself is all that matters.... He ever denies Welshs' claim to have broken the sound barrier first, even though there were witnesses to the sonic boom he caused....

Back on topic, there were many more -262's destroyed on the ground than in the air... One of the negatives of having a jet fighter with short legs is that it has to be close to the "front".... I always wondered why German engineers couldnt develope a drop tank for the -262.... Could have saved a few lives and alot of aircraft....

Maybe.........

I went through and read this entire thread again, and there is some great info, but trying to put in chronological order is a very daunting task...


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## delcyros (Jun 11, 2006)

With the numbers in mind, there is a good probability that more Me-262 were lost to accidents than to enemy actions. However, this goes to most ww2 fighter A/C.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 11, 2006)

Les I am not sure but I think there were some in development for the 262. Im not sure on this though, maybe Erich has more info on it.


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## Erich (Jun 11, 2006)

drop tanks were used by the NF unit 10./NJG 11. As the KG (J) 51 and 54 boys plus JG 7 did not fly far from home there was no reason to carry the extra weight considering that it was most likely they would meet up with Stangs sometime during the days operation


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 11, 2006)

Thought so. I remember seeing pics somewhere of Me-262s with droptanks.


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## Erich (Jun 11, 2006)

two seaters and boy did they slow those jets down. later in 45 had it been so the fuel tanks would of been internalized or so on the drawing board


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## Henk (Jun 11, 2006)

Yep, they slowed them down right. Here are some pics of the thread I opened on the Me-262s a while back.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/me-262-variants-3228.html

I did mostly on the Me-262 at the Johannesburg Military Museum South Africa.


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## Erich (Jun 13, 2006)

back to chronological order // who says this cannot be done ?

Janaury 13, 45 Lt. Walter Konantz of the 55th fg shoots down a KG(J)51 262 flown by Unteroffizier Alfred Farber just taking off from his airfield and he was kia.

A photo-recon Mossie from the 25th bg was attacked at random by two 262's of JG 7 evidently not too experienced as the Mossie flew tight turns and evaded their rounds. the two jets came along side of the Mossie and waved to the Mossie pilot and then flew off


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 13, 2006)

Good pilot, but I can really see a Mossie tangeling with 262's.


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## Henk (Jun 13, 2006)

That is funny, they waved at the pilot and then flew off, that is good.


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## hooter (Jun 17, 2006)

I watched a discovery programme on the mustang p-51 battles over germany-one of the americans said he had just shot down his opponent-and after he had bailed out, before he pulled his ripcord,as the american flew past, there was the german pilot saluting him at terminal velocity-I think the american pilots remark was something like 'here was a real professional'


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 17, 2006)

Intersting, never had heard of that.


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## Henk (Jun 17, 2006)

Well you do get professional pilots and then you get guys who just do there job. 

It is like Adolf Galland who shot down a South African fighter pilot during the battle of Briton, everyone thought the SA guy was dead but they found him burnt all over his body and after the war the Adolf Galland went back and searched for him and they later became great friends and when the SA guy died, Adolf Galland said he lost a great friend. They were best of friends. They say that Adolf Galland looked for the people he shot down if they survived the war or not.


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## hooter (Jun 17, 2006)

i think that it must be remembered that the air war, because it was often 1 on 1, did allow personal decisions on a greater scale-the last of an age of chivalry, that rarely existed on the ground-and due to information technology is even rarer now


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## hooter (Jun 17, 2006)

and i have to say my father (with 23 squadron and the RAF since 1940)thought galland was a 'good egg'-and thought he had been given a bum deal at the end of the war


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 19, 2006)

Galland was a very good pilot and very good man. I actually find that some of the most couragous and kind acts of the war were done by men of all sides who flew in the war.


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 19, 2006)

hooter said:


> I watched a discovery programme on the mustang p-51 battles over germany-one of the americans said he had just shot down his opponent-and after he had bailed out, before he pulled his ripcord,as the american flew past, there was the german pilot saluting him at terminal velocity-I think the american pilots remark was something like 'here was a real professional'


That sounds like Maj. Richard "Bud" Peterson of the 357th. I saw an old interview with him where he said basically that.


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## Twitch (Jun 19, 2006)

hooter- I'd heard that slaute story for years and wondered if it was akin to an urban legand or not. Do you remember who the American pilot was?


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 19, 2006)

I'll bet it was Bud Peterson.


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## Henk (Jun 19, 2006)

Galland was not the type of guy who liked to sit behind a desk and flew his own aircraft on his own missions sometimes and he enjoyed it very much. He was a great person.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 21, 2006)

What did he fly other peoples planes when he went out on missions to see how theres were?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 25, 2006)

Whilst there cirtainly were some very Gentlemanly acts during the war WWII can really be seen to be the death of that kind of thinking, from then on due to the changing nature of warfare the kill was more important than the guy behind the yoke..........


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## schwarzpanzer (Jun 28, 2006)

My grandads Aircraft Carrier (it wasn't exactly 'his') at the end of WW2, HMS Ocean, apparently had a Hawker Sea Fury that destroyed at least 1 MiG 15 Faggot. I think he left before that happened, but it's something I've been meaning to ask him.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 28, 2006)

Killed a Mig-15 at the end of WW2? How did that happen when the Mig-15 was not in service at the end of WW2. Come on now!


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## Erich (Jun 28, 2006)

should have 354th fg Stang pilot, R. Delgado's Me 262 shootdown in my hands in about two weeks, just wrote him tonight and he is making copies for me

E


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## Soren (Jun 28, 2006)

Excellent!


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## Gnomey (Jun 28, 2006)

Look forward to seeing the accounts Erich!


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## Henk (Jun 28, 2006)

Oh yes I would love to see that Erich.


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## Erich (Jun 28, 2006)

you will ! most of my first person Stang accts come from March to April 45 era.

got to get back to posting on Janauary 3rd 45 I believe ....


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## Henk (Jun 28, 2006)

Sounds great.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 29, 2006)

Looking foward to it Erich.


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## Erich (Jun 29, 2006)

actually got a very special mail from him last night, everything is all sent as of yesterday, so hopeful I can get a bud to do a digi of the materials/scan it and will put forth


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## Erich (Jul 9, 2006)

neat stuff from Delg. nice personalized pic of him in front of his Stang with the name of the craft and his Me 262 kill on the canopy frame, besides a nice long acct. of his KG 51 jet kill in 45. Will post later, got to get on with the month of Janauary of 45 .. ..


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 9, 2006)

Hey Schwarzpanzer, Im still waiting for a response on that damn Mig-15 kill that was not in service in WW2....


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## Henk (Jul 11, 2006)

How the hell do you get a MIG-15 at the end of WW2 except if it traveled backwards in time which is not possible?


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## davparlr (Jul 11, 2006)

schwarzpanzer said:


> My grandads Aircraft Carrier (it wasn't exactly 'his') at the end of WW2, HMS Ocean, apparently had a Hawker Sea Fury that destroyed at least 1 MiG 15 Faggot. I think he left before that happened, but it's something I've been meaning to ask him.



Obviously the Mig-15 was not shot down during WWII. However, in Korea,

"The Sea Fury performed air strikes with any ordnance it could carry, including sea mines. It operated from the Weapons delivery was extremely accurate for the days of unguided weapons, and one Sea Fury even shot down a MiG-15. On 9 August 1952, a flight of four FB.11s from the HMS OCEAN was on a "train busting" mission when they were jumped by eight MiG-15s. The MiG pilots foolishly decided to get into a "turning contest" with the agile Sea Furies, and a Sea Fury piloted by Lieutenant Peter "Hoagy" Carmichael managed to get on the tail of a MiG and smash it up with his four 20 millimeter cannon. Two other MiGs were damaged while the Sea Furies returned safely."

Hope this helps.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 12, 2006)

Henk said:


> How the hell do you get a MIG-15 at the end of WW2 except if it traveled backwards in time which is not possible?



Ask Scwarzpanzer.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 12, 2006)

davparlr said:


> Obviously the Mig-15 was not shot down during WWII. However, in Korea,
> 
> "The Sea Fury performed air strikes with any ordnance it could carry, including sea mines. It operated from the Weapons delivery was extremely accurate for the days of unguided weapons, and one Sea Fury even shot down a MiG-15. On 9 August 1952, a flight of four FB.11s from the HMS OCEAN was on a "train busting" mission when they were jumped by eight MiG-15s. The MiG pilots foolishly decided to get into a "turning contest" with the agile Sea Furies, and a Sea Fury piloted by Lieutenant Peter "Hoagy" Carmichael managed to get on the tail of a MiG and smash it up with his four 20 millimeter cannon. Two other MiGs were damaged while the Sea Furies returned safely."
> 
> Hope this helps.



That I now of and was sure that is what he was talking about. I was just hoping to hear what he was going to say before I posted info on the same incident.



I guess I figures we might get into a long discussion on how the Mig-15 was operational in WW2. 

And everyone would tell him: NO!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 13, 2006)

there were also several other claims of MiG-15s by sea fury pilots although i don't believe they've managed to confirm them..........


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## Henk (Jul 13, 2006)

. I also thought he were referring to that incident, but I wished that he should tell us how he came up with that one.


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## Erich (Jul 13, 2006)

HEY YOU GUYS ! are you all polluting this thread with the goofy Mig stuff ??  

let's get back to the real topic shall we

3 januaary 45 coming up maybe tonight .......


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## Henk (Jul 13, 2006)

Erich said:


> 3 januaary 45 coming up maybe tonight .......


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## Erich (Jul 13, 2006)

go back Hendrik and read earlier postings we are on 3 Janaury 1945 even with several pages of nonsense that followed. It was asked if we can retrace historical footsteps and I for one am trying to do that .........

Tschüß


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## Henk (Jul 13, 2006)

Oh sorry I did not snap that. Have no problem at going back to topic.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 14, 2006)

Looking foward to it as allways Erich. Thats the good thing about Erich, he has so many dates and events to go with those dates buried in his brain and archives somewhere.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 14, 2006)

Erich are you talking about the incident on 03 January 1945 (I think it was 03 January atleast) when 18 Ar-234s were jumped by Spitfires while trying to land at there base after relocating from another? 3 ended up getting shot down, 2 damaged and 2 pilots killed.


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## Erich (Jul 14, 2006)

actually I am gong to cover the Me 262's only, the Arado 234 is another story in itself and sadly not much on the day to day operations has ever been covered at length, it is all so brief


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 14, 2006)

Okay that was the only jets that I know about that were shot down on that day. That was the correct day though I think.


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## Erich (Jul 15, 2006)

January 14, 1945

US 357th fg pounced on a number of Fw 190's attacking US heavy bombers and the 357th fg came out on top claiming some 56 German fighters this date. JG 7 sent their Me 262's to attack the Stangs instead of the bombers which in itself was fool-hardy.....first hand info states 1 Me 262 slid in behind several STangs of the 357th fg and sat there with the flight and then took off ahead. pretty weird as one pilot Dale Karger had him in his sights when he got behind but had his gun switch turned off and the Me 262 sped off.
Stangs of the 353rd caught a couple of jets at 10,000 feet heading in a northerly fashion, the Stang pilot Lt. B.J. Murray shot down Unteroffizier Detjens who bailed out, Detjens by the way is still alive....anaother 9./JG 7 pilot was shot down and killed as two-three Stangs ganged up from behind and drilled the jet. Feldwebel Heinrich Wurm fell to his death. Two othere jets damaged by the group and a Jug from the 56th fg also damaged anoather jet of JG 7. One jet of III./JG 7 was lost in a crash with the pilot killed and other in red 14 was lost to US action the pilot suriving the incident near Neuruppin.
RAF Spits encountered jets as well and Capt. Bolsted of the 332nd caught a II./KG 51 jet landing at Rheine and shot it down, the pilot not surviving. Another I. gruppe jet of KG 51 lost it's pilot due to Allied AA guns near Detweiler.


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## Henk (Jul 15, 2006)

Erich great info mate, but could you also tell us something about Arado 234's being shot down in great numbers or were they not shot down in large numbers?


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## Erich (Jul 15, 2006)

they were not shot down in any large numbers as there just were not that many in useage. I have to get back on that from the info that Adler gave.......


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## Henk (Jul 15, 2006)

Cool sounds good.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 16, 2006)

Of how much interest it would be to you I don't know Erich but August's Flypast has an interview with Willi Kriessman, it focuses mainly on his exploits over Russia with his He-111 leading KG53, however it does make mention of his flying the Blitz towards the end of the war, however it was just ferry flights through what he describes as "German airspace that was controlled by P-51 Mustangs and P-38 Lightening" he is however very complimentary as to the Blitz's abilities........


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## Erich (Jul 16, 2006)

Lanc I will look for the August issue next month, thanks for the ehads up !

E ~


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jul 17, 2006)

i've posted more about the feature in annother thread you started (i don't know if you've found it yet) but the August issue is alreay out (they always release them a month in advance, July edition comes out in June, August issue comes out in July) so it should already be out if you can get it out there, if not there'll be a way for me to send one or two out..........


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## SR-71/U-2 Crew Chief (Aug 2, 2006)

I have heard my dad talk about the films and his 1/2 credit lots of times.
I wish he would get them recorded in a more permanant media. 
This is a very interesting thread hope it stays alive!!


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## Erich (Aug 31, 2006)

"Bump"

well it's been awhile, in process of sending a package to 262 killer Steve Ananian this weekend. Have glass stuck in my hands so am typing softly and more will come give me a moment ...........

E ~


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## Erich (Sep 13, 2006)

from E.M. Mustang pilot chatted recently along with 3 of his other buddies in their fg

to your question about flying against the ME 262 the following thoughts come to mind. We didn't see them until late in the war when we aerial superority. We learned not to let them sneak up behind which made for more careful checking your tail. When traveling in 4s or 2s we flew wide abreast to check each other tails. Then we would turn into them for a head on. At that time we had a tail warning radar based on the proximity fuse for artillery with a red light in the dash. When that came on we did a violent sudden manuver. We did not worry about head on as the firepower was equal and they did not use that manuver. The best way to catch one was to have such altitude advantage that you could reach 400 plus mph and catch him from behind. They were also vulnerable when taking off and landing especially if they were about out of fuel. Regards, Ed


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## Henk (Sep 13, 2006)

Cool info Erich.


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## Twitch (Sep 18, 2006)

Here are some pilots I've met with recently and their victories against jets. I won't go into stories here but this is the data:

Col. Richard Candelaria 479th FG- Me 262 April 7, 1945 claimed as probable confirmed destroyed by German records

Capt Harrison Tordoff 353rd FG- Me 262 March 31 1945

Lt. Col. Don Cummings 55th FG- 2 Me262s February 25 1945

Capt. Robert Winks 357th FG- Me 262 January 15, 1945

Major Urben Drew 362st FG- 2 Me 262s October 7, 1944

Capt. Wayne Coleman 78th FG- Me 262 March 31, 1945

Lt. Joseph Peterburs 20th FG- Me 262 April 10, 1945 flow by Walter Schuck

Lt. Col. Huie Lamb 78th FG- Me 262 October 15, 1944, 1/2 Ar 234 March 1945


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## Erich (Sep 18, 2006)

when did you seak with Tordoff last Twitch ? Friend Huie Lamb is covered in my thread as well as Drew who is deceased for some years now. J. Petersburs is going to get covered as I have pics, we talked at length and his combat ops for the date, neat guy.

still trying to make this a day by day thread everyone


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## Twitch (Sep 20, 2006)

I saw Capt. Tordoff Sunday. And the news of Ben Drew's demise are greatly exagerated. He is VERY much alive though he has been through medical challenges the past few years.


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## Erich (Sep 20, 2006)

Idiots ! that is all I can say , it is stuff like this that gets reported about aces deaths/illness from both sides and then we have to take it as fact ( I have in this case ) unless we have the close in scoop.

thanks for clarification Twitch. private message sent to you


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## Henk (Sep 20, 2006)

Yes, some people love spreading lies.


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## Meteor (Sep 24, 2006)

Hey henk off topic I know, but I just love that signature.


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## Henk (Sep 25, 2006)

He he he....... Ja, everyone has their specific taste.


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## Erich (Nov 8, 2006)

old thread I have not forgotten thee ............... more coming, be patient those that are interested, just obtained much needed materials from at least 8 P-51 pilots encountering Me 262 and Ar 234's ....the last 3 weeks


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## lesofprimus (Nov 8, 2006)

U crack me up, u know that???

Lookin foward to more details... Any pilots we may have heard of??


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## Matt308 (Nov 8, 2006)

Erich, you have been saying that for a month or so. You're killing me. I'm beginning to think that you sit at home rubbing your dry little bike chaffed hands together in glee knowing that us ravenous WWII plane geeks want more infor of your knowledge.

For God's sake man. Cough it up!


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## Henk (Nov 9, 2006)

Have any pics with that Erich?


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## Erich (Nov 9, 2006)

I luv suspense don't you guys ? ! yes there are pics galore, and too make it perfectly clear after 53 years on this earth I am becoming more and more like a lazy over-exercised slob. 

is there such a thing ? 

ok guys hold onto your jock straps, stuff is coming ........ most of what I received lately is late spring 45 and from the almost unknown 356th fg, 1 Me 262 kill, 1 Ar 234 damaged/kill, another Me 262 kill from a 2nd SF pilot in the 8th AF, and on it goes . .. . oh yes E. Giller responded from the 55th fg with his after action report/kill 1 Me 262; but I have to call to say thank you and retrieve a taad bit of info on his Mustang, etc.


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## Henk (Nov 9, 2006)

Great Erich can not wait.


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## Matt308 (Nov 10, 2006)

He's bluffing. He has two 55fg after action reports.


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## Gnomey (Nov 10, 2006)

He better not be... I'm looking forward to the findings (along with everyone else).


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## Erich (Nov 10, 2006)

only two reports...............ah no. Actually am waiting for one vets response which is quite overdue along with Irion's of the 339th fg who has been quite ill. two more letters go out veterans weekend . . . .


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## Erich (Jan 17, 2007)

well one of the pilots of the 339th fg that I was interviewing passed away on January 8th of this year but got a smidgon of some materials anyway. got another teaser today and here is a copy of a copy of a combat report that I have with full story in the pilots words of his AR 234 shoot down in March of 45. this covers his Jan 14, 45: Fw 190 kill for now .... I am going to have to edit this whole long thread soon and get back up to speed on this topic. hopeful it will be worth the wait ....


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## Matt308 (Jan 18, 2007)

Great!


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## timshatz (Jan 18, 2007)

Cool stuff.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 19, 2007)

Very cool.


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## Erich (Jan 19, 2007)

RB told me he does not have the combat reports for his 2 kills so am making copies of copies ........

his Ar 234 kill is very long and is slightly different than what he just wrote me via letter the other day. It will be included here in time ......


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## Gnomey (Jan 19, 2007)

Cool Erich! Look forward to seeing the Ar-234 kill account.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 19, 2007)

Excellent stuff Erich.... I wonder why the 190 pilot bailed with no apparent strikes...


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## Erich (Jan 19, 2007)

he was a ***** !, seriously with the inexperience of so many in 1945 due to the shortage of well trained "kids" at the stick, no good man hours in the air without getting hammered by US/RAF fighters. have at least a dozen personal interviews of P-51 vets that mentioned similar experiences over the Reich in engagements with 190's and 109's. have not heard as of yet any pilots of 262's jumping ship. Failed parachute yes ...........

hate to say this but will.........have found that for some it was better to fight another day let alone just were too plain scared and looked for a way out via the chute


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## Erich (Jan 19, 2007)

RB probably encountered a SturmFw from II.Sturm/JG 300 or one of the many from JG 301. A black day for my cousins outfit JG 301 losing 20 kIA and 8 wounded. JG 300/JG 301 were slaughtered. at least 4 Doras were lost by 6./JG 301 alone ..........

RB's unit the 356th fg shot down 13 by itself and the noted 357th fg claimed at least 50 for it's top day in aerial combat over the Reich, othere high scoring groups were the 78th and the 355th fg's as examples


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## JoeB (Jan 19, 2007)

delcyros said:


> Are we talking about claims or kills?
> In general, I doubt that the US/UK/RCAAF/SU loss lists are correct and avaiable to verify the claims. Even if losses match (esspecially US, since these are accessable, god thanks!) claims, they are often connected to other reasons than damage inflyted by Me-262 (the same was done in Korea: engine failure, midaircollision, plane running out of fuel and so on instead of the MiGs, which inflicted the damage..).


Sorry to quote ancient post, but interesting thread and I wasn't around  

The partisans of Soviet claims in Korea, *claim* the US extensively faked the causes of its losses in Korea. because they are embarassed by the very high overclaim ratio of the "their" guys. They are aided by some off hand, non quantified statements in old US books implying this was true. And then they have repeated it so many times (especially on the internet in recent years) to make it a "factoid".

But I've looked into it in detail in the US records v Soviet claims, and it's just not true. The overwhelming majority of Soviet claims correspond to combats recorded at the same time and place in USAF records, between the same general types of planes (swept wing jet, straignt wing jet, prop) the Soviets say. It's just the results that differ, in the then-secret level documents of both sides. When other US losses occured the same days for non-MiG causes (still not anywhere near enough to justify the Soviet claims), that's usually well documented to have happened in different circumstances, different place and time. Again, in voluminous then-secret records of many kinds, all bascially consistent. At the margin there was a tendency to class loss cause "unknown" without certainty it was MiG; a few planes returning safely but not repaired were not counted (*not* common, and should they even count?) and in a few cases a pilot might have claimed mechanical failure when really hit, but it was not systematic or statistically signficant.

It's not totally off topic because people often use unproven (or untrue) statements about one war to refer to another; if the statement is followed up, oh wait that's off topic.... I don't know the exact nature of USAAF WWII records, but using the false claim about Korea undercuts the statement that losses to Me-262's were understated, since it was not true in Korea to the extent of explaining any significant part of the MiG's overclaiming.

Going the other way I didn't see mentioned on the thread Foreman and Harvey's "Me-262 Combat Diary". Not a new book, it compared claims and losses pistons v. 262's and shows the USAAF claims against jets (RAF's too) to have been quite accurate, 262 losses to pistons something like 75% of the Allied official *fighter* credits for Me-262's destroyed (always key distinction: fighter and bomber claims); what I got counting up incidents in that book. Very few piston fighters can be documented to have been downed by 262's; perhaps with more research some more would turn up, but the 262 claims v piston fighters were clearly highly overstated, their claims v. bombers more reasonable. Moreover discussions of particular incidents in books like Smith and Creek generally follow Foreman, I don't know of anyone disproving the general pattern of claim/loss accounting in that book. 

The piston fighters had "unfair" advantages v. the German gets (numbers and fuel persistence to hang around 262 bases and get the jets coming and going), but air combat is never about "fair".

Joe


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## Erich (Jan 19, 2007)

I can disprove anything, just wait ............. 

JG 7 in particular still does not have adequate coverage especially against Soviet forces in April/May of 45. JG 7 pilots were ordered not to engage in a fighter vs fighter unless necessary or they had the upper altitude advantage where they could zoom and climb. 4 engine heavies was another matter and it was imperitive to go after them and take as many out as seemed possible.

When I started this thread in response to make an almost orderly day by day with primary sources available to me as well as a horde of personal US accounts. in fact we have not even begun to get into the meat yet ........ it's coming. I will list source details once we end the "war" in a bibliography


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## timshatz (Jan 19, 2007)

Erich said:


> he was a ***** !, seriously with the inexperience of so many in 1945 due to the shortage of well trained "kids" at the stick, no good man hours in the air without getting hammered by US/RAF fighters. have at least a dozen personal interviews of P-51 vets that mentioned similar experiences over the Reich in engagements with 190's and 109's. have not heard as of yet any pilots of 262's jumping ship. Failed parachute yes ...........
> 
> hate to say this but will.........have found that for some it was better to fight another day let alone just were too plain scared and looked for a way out via the chute



Can't really say I blame them. Writing was on the wall by that time, the Rhine had been crossed (maybe the Oder too, well at least East Prussia was occupied). It didn't take a genius to see it was all a matter of time. Who wants to die in a war that is lost?


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## Erich (Jan 19, 2007)

JG 301 was in total mess array as they had taken in some raw recruits, and they along with JG 300 were the two Jg's that really tried to put up a stout defence in the area of Berlin in 1945, JG 53 in the southland with their 109G's and K's.
Being totally outnumbered did not help at all which is so obvious.

side note : my right ankle is propped up and pretty tweaked but reading over the latest from the 356th fg pilot about his Ar 234 kill on 14 March 45 this is going to be great as well as my interview with ace D. Bryan of the 352nd fg and his Ar 234 kill on the same date several years ago.....

these personals are what really shed light on the 'real' action not described in any book(s) 8)


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## Erich (Jan 19, 2007)

I must do a bit of editing, the 356th fg met the Fw 190A-8's of IV./JG 54 not JG 300 or 301. Engagements were by the Dümmer lake area west of Hannover. the JG 54 gruppe lost 10 Fw's


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## JoeB (Jan 19, 2007)

Erich said:


> I can disprove anything, just wait .............


I don't know, are you responding to my post? Let me ask you more directly, have you read "Me262 Combat Diary"? I think we should keep researching even on topics that other people have covered; my own research (not on WWII so much) is on topics others have covered; I want to find out more; I assume your interest and approach is the same. 

But this topic, 262 actual losses v Allied claims, has been *basically* covered (Foreman and Harvey, and also quite a bit in Smith and Creek's series on the Me-262) and it's pretty clear the USAAF piston fighter claims against the 262's were reasonably accurate (by WWII standards), they shot down quite a lot of 262's, and that the 262's didn't shoot down very many piston fighters. We're not IMHO actually waiting for the basic accounting comparison of piston fighter claims and Me-262 losses. I'm sure further research such as yours would clarify certain incidents, but the basic situation has been researched and published, some time ago.

Now as to why the P-51 (which scored the bulk of piston kills against jets) scored a high kill ratio over Me-262 when the 262 was a fundamentally more advanced airplane...You're right in a completely even match up where Me-262mainly sought to shoot down piston fighters, and where they had equal or superior numbers, and where the P-51's would usually have to break off action first for lack of fuel, then the result could have been very different. But that wasn't the historical situation. 

Joe


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## Erich (Jan 19, 2007)

Joe I have nearly all published sources on the 262 one of my pet projects, starting in the early 1960's ... and yes to your question I have it plus the Classic volumes, and several German language editions.

you may be surprised as I continue this long haul that some US P-51 pilots were deathly afraid of getting into a 1 to 1 with the jets because of the speed advantage.

what has been covered in much of the texts is very limited. As I have interviewed quite many of the living pilots aces or otherwise of the 8th and 9th AF, am hoping to assemble some interesting first accts plus their combat mission reports and photos with their permission for this very thread. I own the German jets against the US air force and I think the book is almost worthless in coverage it is so brief.

continued ........


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 20, 2007)

Joe you'll soon learn that you can teach Erich nothing new about the Luftwaffe- his word is God in that department..........


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## Soren (Jan 20, 2007)

Get into to a high speed fight with the Me-262 and your a sitting duck - at speeds over 450 km/h the Me-262 has feather like controls and excellent maneuverability, and the G forces the airframe can take are truly enormous !

Hans Fey, German fighter pilot
_"The Me-262 will turn much better at high than at low speeds, and due to its clean design, will keep its speed in tight turns much longer than the conventional type aircraft"_

US Me-262 pilots manual
_"The airplane [Me-262] holds its speed in tight turns much longer than conventional types"_


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## Udet (Jan 20, 2007)

Erich said:


> he was a ***** !, seriously with the inexperience of so many in 1945 due to the shortage of well trained "kids" at the stick, no good man hours in the air without getting hammered by US/RAF fighters. have at least a dozen personal interviews of P-51 vets that mentioned similar experiences over the Reich in engagements with 190's and 109's. have not heard as of yet any pilots of 262's jumping ship. Failed parachute yes ...........
> 
> hate to say this but will.........have found that for some it was better to fight another day let alone just were too plain scared and looked for a way out via the chute



Erich has also commented on accounts that showed B-17 crews would abandon ship even before the closing in Fw 190s began firing.


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## Udet (Jan 25, 2007)

JoeB said:


> I don't know, are you responding to my post? Let me ask you more directly, have you read "Me262 Combat Diary"? I think we should keep researching even on topics that other people have covered; my own research (not on WWII so much) is on topics others have covered; I want to find out more; I assume your interest and approach is the same.
> 
> But this topic, 262 actual losses v Allied claims, has been *basically* covered (Foreman and Harvey, and also quite a bit in Smith and Creek's series on the Me-262) and it's pretty clear the USAAF piston fighter claims against the 262's were reasonably accurate (by WWII standards), they shot down quite a lot of 262's, and that the 262's didn't shoot down very many piston fighters. We're not IMHO actually waiting for the basic accounting comparison of piston fighter claims and Me-262 losses. I'm sure further research such as yours would clarify certain incidents, but the basic situation has been researched and published, some time ago.
> 
> ...




Very interesting set of comments of there, although i will dispute your argument "the basic situation has been researched and published, some time ago". There are still issues to be thoroughly approached, and a book that was published 12 years ago might become junk in the near future...but more importantly there are things that happened during the last 5 or 6 months of the war we might never know of at all, ever.

So in the end all you are saying is that the Soviet "partisans" of the Korean War claim the USAF guys did manipulate information regarding the actual causes for their losses during such conflict...and that basically you agree with what 2 guys who wrote one book say regarding the performance of the Me 262....so you discovered the Russians lie (which does not surprise me at all) and that 2 guys who wrote such book regarding the jet already hit the nail.

but what is it with that comment "the people using untrue or unproven statements to refer to another war"?


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## Erich (Jan 25, 2007)

from the cebudanderson site covering Robert winks Me 262 jet kill on January 15, 1945 the only real action of the day. 357th fighter group

The Squadron was at 15K feet when I spotted a lone aircraft doing slow-rolls on the deck flying in a direction away from the airfield. There were patches of snow on the ground, and the aircraft was visible whenever it overflew a patch of snow. I called it into Major Peterson but he was not able to locate it, so he gave me permission to hit it. By this time the bogey had reversed its direction and was coming back toward the airfield. I dropped my external wing fuel tanks at 15K feet, and rolled over into a near vertical dive...5 degrees of flaps with the throttle cut full back. I was closing very fast in a picture perfect combat curve, and when he came into range, I hit him from the high-rear with all six fifties' 240 rounds, right in the cockpit area. The plane caught fire, half-rolled onto its back, and dove right into the ground, and exploded. From some point behind me, probably not fifty feet away, I heard Pete Peterson say "Nice shooting!" He was right there, camera and all, just in case! 

Within seconds I had pointed the nose of my plane into the heavens,...upped flaps... and it seemed that I was being helped along by the Germans exploding 20 37 mm rounds behind me. They were everywhere around me, when I discovered that I could not hear the sound of my engine! It was windmilling! No power! NO GAS!, you fool, you dropped the external wing tanks without switching to your internal tanks. SWITCH IT!...and the prop was turning so fast that it must have sucked about ten foot of air lock right out of the fuel line in seconds, and we passed through the 15K foot altitude level somewhere around the speed of sound. Or so I was praying!

With the speed of the dive and the short burst of 240 rounds, I was not certain that it was a Me-262 until I landed in England, and Pete Peterson confirmed it. 

Pete Peterson could have taken that kill instead of allowing me to do it. It was his prerogative, as Squadron Leader, and I would have thought non-the-less of him, for doing so. But he gave it to me, and that victory qualified me as an Ace. Pete finished combat as a triple-Ace, but he was much more than that among the pilots of the 364th Fighter Squadron, and the 357th Fighter Group.

Captain Bob Winks flying P-51, "Trusty Rusty"


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## Matt308 (Jan 25, 2007)

Great story Erich.


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## Erich (Jan 25, 2007)

yes I luv these first hand accounts. 

January 16th 1945 : no air activity against jets but the 4th fg with their P-51's strafed the airfield at Neuburg housing 262's of II./KG(J) 54 and 1 was destroyed by .50's.

January 17, 45 : Hauptmann Peter Eder with 9./JG 7 pops 1 B-17 possibly from the 351st bomb group. 

January 18, 45 : an Me 262 damaged severely due to a flap accident crashes upon landing.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 25, 2007)

Udet said:


> So in the end all you are saying is that the Soviet "partisans" of the Korean War claim the USAF guys did manipulate information regarding the actual causes for their losses during such conflict...and that basically you agree with what 2 guys who wrote one book say regarding the performance of the Me 262....so you discovered the Russians lie (which does not surprise me at all) and that 2 guys who wrote such book regarding the jet already hit the nail.


Not to go off subject but there's been a lot of discussion recently of Soviet claims during the Korean war. I don't have exact numbers but the Russians claimed something like 650 F-86s during the Korean War. A total of 650 F-86s actually cycled through Korea, so we know the Soviet's claims are way out of this world on that claim. I also remember reading that they claimed something like 180 F-80s. That was about the entire F-80 strength in Korea! The USAF admits to something like 78 F-86s lost in air-to-air combat with another 225 or so lot to other causes. The USAF Claimed over 700 Migs, the Soviets admit to 345. Let's say at least half of those 225 F-86 losses were actual air-to-air losses (113). Combine those with the 75 and it gives a grand total of 345 Migs to 188 F-86s, that's still almost 2 to 1 USAF vs. Soviets, and that's using the Soviets own admitted loss numbers!. With all this said there is still no way to accurately divide the kills by country. With that all said in Korea it's my opinion that the F-86 vs the Mig 15 with Soviets, Chinese and Koreans combined probably had a conservative 4 to 1 kill ratio. Believing anything else is just buying into old Soviet propaganda...


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## Udet (Jan 25, 2007)

Interesting comments flyboy! Although my knowledge regarding the Korean war is superficial now i learn something (also that is why i say i am not surprised to know the soviets lied -and possibly no one should-)


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 26, 2007)

Udet said:


> Interesting comments flyboy! Although my knowledge regarding the Korean war is superficial now i learn something (also that is why i say i am not surprised to know the soviets lied -and possibly no one should-)


Thanks Udet - I know we (the West) have been enlightened with new information regarding Soviet Pilots in Korea since the 1990s, after the fall of the Soviet Union. Although many old Korean War vets have come foward to confirm what was already known, I believe a lot of the "newer" stories by some of these guys and authors who document their claims is nothing more than repeated Soviet propaganda carried down over the years and it's apparent by the the claims made by the Soviets. There is no denying that US (UN) claims were also exaggerated but if you put it in perspective the US (UN) air-to-air victory claims are a lot more believable than some of the BS put out by the Soviets. Bottom line Soviet lied.


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## Photoshop Jockey (Jan 31, 2007)

Hi, guys. My name's Dan Zoernig. I'm an aviation illustrator and found this thread during some research for a project I'm working on. 7/29/44 Art Jeffrey flying a P-38J shot down an Me 163, which was the first of the type to be claimed by the Allies. Has anybody mentioned 163 shootdowns over the last 25 pages of this thread? I read the first 3 pages, but then skipped the rest. Very interesting material, just not enough time.

Best,

Dan


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## Erich (Jan 31, 2007)

Dan :

there is always time ...... just kick back and relax.

no you won't find any of the 5 claims mentioned of Me 163's as they were not of consequence during the air war over the Reich. I'd like to stick with the Me 262A as well as possibly the Ar 234 at some point as they contributed to the Luftwaffe war efforts, or at least the Luftwaffe thought so .........

welcome aboard 8) 

E ~


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## Erich (Feb 7, 2007)

just a teaser ........... more coming












the pilot of the above P-51 "Tar Baby" is still alive


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## twoeagles (Feb 7, 2007)

Beautiful, Erich! A moment in history frozen forever. I can't get enough
color wartime photo's.


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## Erich (Feb 7, 2007)

I should of shown this one first as this Stang was repainted to the previous colour work. the pilot of this Stang is also alive. note the pilots pet Wolf pic on the fuselage .............. YES !

more on the way . . . ........ ...


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## delcyros (Feb 7, 2007)

Can´t help, it´s all going to be great stuff, Erich.

And did I ever mentioned that the -51 was nothing short of a beauty?
wow, authentic, great shots.


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## Chingachgook (Feb 7, 2007)

Photoshop Jockey said:


> Hi, guys. My name's Dan Zoernig. I'm an aviation illustrator and found this thread during some research for a project I'm working on. 7/29/44 Art Jeffrey flying a P-38J shot down an Me 163, which was the first of the type to be claimed by the Allies. Has anybody mentioned 163 shootdowns over the last 25 pages of this thread? I read the first 3 pages, but then skipped the rest. Very interesting material, just not enough time.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Dan




I am not really here...

But while I am not here I should tell you (as best I can remember) something that a Sherman tank commander told me many years ago (sorry no real sources here other than his name - Joe Shlickman - he was head of NYC Transit when I knew him).

Joe said that they had entered Germany from Belgium early '45. He and his tanks were in a wide open area. Overhead they saw a *tail-less* "jet" that attacked four (4) P-47s at near ground level. The "jet" would loop down and shoot and then loop back up again after each attack, repeating four times and *downing ALL FOUR P-47s.*


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## R Leonard (Feb 7, 2007)

References to jets from the ground pounders

From: BATTALION COMBAT HISTORY - WWII ETO, 2ND BN, 13TH US INF, 8TH DIV
THE 2ND BATTALION JOURNAL (Code Name GREYHOUND WHITE)

. . . 

15-14 Feb 1945 - Elements of BN moved to ROETGEN to practice river crossing assault, then returned to the reserve area. We practiced more amphibious operations near EICHSWEILER. Strafing by Luftwaffe was heavy along the river, as well as artillery. *Jet planes were seen for first time. *
. . .

24 Feb 1945 - EASY, under Capt Warren, and FOX, under Capt Hemphill continued moving into the residential area against strong resistance and repeated shelling. Maj Dunlap, our splendid BN CO, was lost here during a barrage by 120mm mortars, along with Lt Hickok, S-2, and Lt Iko of HOW. Capt Warren was wounded shortly afterwards. Major Leonard assumed command of the BN and appointed Capt Strickland as Exec., Capt Chamblee as S-3, and Lt Jacobson as S-2. Lt Silcox assumed command of HOW Co. The assault proceeded, but very slowly now as FOX had entered another band of AP mines. The bridge was now complete behind us, and as our platoon of tanks arrived they were attached to GEORGE Co, under the command of Lt Good, and this Task Force was committed on the left flank to pass thru EASY Co thus permitting this unit to partially reorganize. GEORGE Co jabbed 500 yds straight ahead. The final assault was ordered in the form of an envelopment from the left by GEORGE and EASY plus one Plt from FOX; an innovation in this night attack, made at 0100 in the morning, was that one Plt of GEORGE and one of EASY rode on our Tank and T. D. Plts under a canopy of artillery fire (155) in order to pass thru the AP mine fields surrounding the fortification. We were successful. The rocket fire was particularly heavy, in taking the barracks, *In addition to the rocket fire, German jet planes bombed and strafed, making the night an inferno*, but in this particular thrust through AP mine fields to the barracks we lost one Tank-Inf team only. By 0300 we were buttoned up and the 121ST INF passed thru us to continue the attack - Mission accomplished.

. . . 


Rich


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## Udet (Feb 7, 2007)

Everyone has his own taste for sure...but can not find any trace of beauty when seeing a P-51, in fact if you take a closer look the model approaches the domain of ugliness more than anything else...


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## Henk (Feb 7, 2007)

Give me the Beauty of a German aircraft, but I will not say the rest is ugly.


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## Udet (Feb 7, 2007)

Jank i did not say that if it was not German then it was ugly. The P-47 D is one of the best looking planes of the war...the Mustang is a stain by the side of the Jug.

I would like to see the photo of a Bf 109 G-10 during late 1944, showing its camo pattern design, now that´d be something.


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## Henk (Feb 7, 2007)

No mate I did not point out taht you said any of that, but I still love me German aircraft.


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## Gnomey (Feb 8, 2007)

Yeah, the Germans built good looking aircraft in the most part. Good stuff Erich, look forward to what else you post here in time.


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## Erich (Feb 8, 2007)

talked with RB's wife this morn in fact not even 5 minutes ago, have his present version of his Ar 234 kill and have found his mission report, now to make a copy and send to him for side notes ............ this is getting very cool and quite a pleasure to chat even with the wives of these noble veterans ..... good day for this on a gloomy dank Thursday


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## Jank (Feb 8, 2007)

Art by Gareth Hector depicting an Me-163b diving into cloud cover having exhausted it's fuel while being chased by a diving Thunderbolt.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 8, 2007)

That would have to be the scarriest thing. Being in a 163 with now more fuel to burn and having enemy fighters everywhere.


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## Henk (Feb 8, 2007)

If I were the Pilot of that Me-163 I will surely bail out. I heard it glided pretty fast so if the Me-163 dived just think at the speeds.


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## Soren (Feb 8, 2007)

I'd point it straight down and start spinning like crazy praying which ever fighter catches me can't get in a good shot !


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## Erich (Feb 8, 2007)

the 8th AF claimed: 

4th fg - 2 Me 163's
359th fg - 2 Me 163's
364th fg claimed - 1 Me 163

I have that these were all from P-51's

also nothing confirmed as to jet downings by any P-38 fg. unless someone would kindly direct me further on this


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## Erich (Feb 8, 2007)

whoa just got this in a timely fashion. 357th fg ace B. Winks e-mail addy who shot down a 262 on 15 January 45 right in order for this thread ........ I await his response....replies




life is good !


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## Henk (Feb 8, 2007)

Are ther some gun cam footage of a Me-163 being downed?


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## Erich (Feb 8, 2007)

just wrote Bob a note and yes there is gun cam footage of the hind end of a Me 163 getting creamed by .50's. the 163 kills came from July 29, 44 to November 2, 44 when the 4th fg shot down 2 on that date.....


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## Henk (Feb 8, 2007)

That will be great to see.


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## Erich (Feb 8, 2007)

Mr winks addy letter got returned ~ trying another route /


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## Erich (Feb 9, 2007)

wanted all to know I just got off the phone with the pilot that flew PI*W, the colour photo of the Stang from the 356th fg. ...... two pages back. A short but excellent conversation; a big mailer is enroute this upcoming Monday to him

bis bald 

E ~ 8)


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## Erich (Feb 15, 2007)

and I just got off the phone with the other pilot flying the same Mustang with the pic of the Coyote on the fuselage.............this is going to be great, that little Coyote flew 5 missions in the P-47 Bubbletop and according to the pilot/vet on the phone just a moment ago told me that he saved the pilots life once.....

more on that teaser later .......... yeah





Rippin it Up !


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## Erich (Feb 21, 2007)

I'm going to wait for another 3-4 days for a certain US pilot/vet to respond to a couple of questions and then I will attack this thread again .........


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## Erich (Apr 11, 2007)

somebody please make this a sticky in aviation as i keep losing it. I want to revamp a bit of it real soon ......... still interviewing more former P-51 pilots of the 356th fg, another letter goes out on the morrow


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 11, 2007)

Sounds good Erich!


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## lesofprimus (Apr 11, 2007)

The thread is stuck...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 12, 2007)

Erich why did you not sticky it yourself?


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## Erich (Apr 12, 2007)

the way I feel right now the last 3 days Chris I probably would of put the thread in admin or the banned area. when I get over this allergie crap I am blasting off with this thing ..........

thanks Les for making it a sticky, much o appreciated


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 12, 2007)

Hope you feel better and I know how you feel because of the abnormal warm winter that we had my allergies are killing me. I normally dont get them, but this year I am being hit by them hard.


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## lape2002 (May 17, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Thanks Udet - I know we (the West) have been enlightened with new information regarding Soviet Pilots in Korea since the 1990s, after the fall of the Soviet Union. Although many old Korean War vets have come foward to confirm what was already known, I believe a lot of the "newer" stories by some of these guys and authors who document their claims is nothing more than repeated Soviet propaganda carried down over the years and it's apparent by the the claims made by the Soviets. There is no denying that US (UN) claims were also exaggerated but if you put it in perspective the US (UN) air-to-air victory claims are a lot more believable than some of the BS put out by the Soviets. Bottom line Soviet lied.



Well there is actually the obvious fact of overclaim made by Soviet pilots against UN air forces which cannot be denied. Before treating them as liars, some might want to check the actual nature of the combat records made by UN pilots. First as mentioned, the 792 kills claim made by US pilots is false all the way for sure although many have and still do assume that this is fact, as well as the B-29's gunner claims and stories of huge attacking numbers of MiGs which were also false.

Anyways, there's always the mention of Soviet propaganda, when actually the soviet involvement was secret, wonder which would be the purpose of that propaganda? For example, on April 22 1952, Colonel Yevgeni Pepelyayev (21 kill ace) was awarded with the Golden Star of the Heroe of the Soviet Union. A particular characteristic of the ceremony was that Pepelyayev have civilian clothes, and in the speech there was no mention of the actions why he deserve the award. 

Maybe you're talking about modern russian propaganda which I would rather call bragging and is widely used by Western enthusiasts and veterans as well.

Now the actual losses admitted by Soviets was 335, 231 for the Chinese and about 46 for the Koreans. That comes to 612, pretty close to the 792 that's true although the latter number would be F-86 only kills, now we're talking about 600 MiG-15 losses from all causes. Indeed, the main cause of MiG loss was actually the uncontrolable spins which the MiG desing notoriously featured and contrary to UN pilots, Communist didn't wore G-suits over Korea, that resulted in several losses in air and outside air-combat. Several US pilots actually claimed the spinning MiGs as victories, James Jabara for example claimed once a victory when seeing a spinning MiG-15 that had previously been seen by his wingman, but anyways I wouldn't call him a liar would I Flyboy? 

3041 UN aircraft were lost in Korea,

Of this number: 

41 have no reason given 
11 are listed as lost for unknown reasons 
164 list a reason but no category 
991 are non-combat losses (crashes in training, landing/takeoff from carriers, typhoons, accidents, etc.) 
1,150 were lost due to AAA damage,blew up in midair 
683 were combat losses (non AAA inflicted) 

Of that 683 -- 

4 were midair collisions (3 with MiG-15s, 1 with a Po-2) 
12 were claimed by the KPAFAC 
14 were claimed by the PLAAF 
15 were claimed by both the PLAAF and the VVS 
227 were claimed by the VVS 
407 were lost in strafing runs, bomb runs, accidents in combat, etc.

You can check at Kornwald Korean War Air Loss Database (KORWALD), the most reliable source for US Korean war air losses.

Numerous russian scholars point that the UN side too often explained losses due to MiGs as technical (« Instrument malfunction » or « fuel exhaustion ») 

We can verify this for example using some of Maj.Pepelyayev record on Yevgeny Pepelyayev - top Russian ace :

"On April, 3, 1951 on April 3 three MiGs of the 176th GvIAP were shot down by the American Sabre pilots (one of them by James Jabara) and only one F-86A was downed by Kapetan (Captain) Ivan Yablokov - the one flown by Ronald Shirlaw (POW) "

However to the data of the USAF shows this plane is lost, ostensibly, for only technical reason: «Instrument malfunction, fuel exhaustion»

See : KORWALD Loss Incident Summary
KORWALD Loss Incident Summary 

Date of Loss: 51/04/03 
Tail Number: 49-1173 
Aircraft Type: F-86A 
Wing or Group: 4th Ftr-Int Gp 
Circumstances of Loss: Instrument malfunction, fuel exhaustion, bellied in on river bank 10 mi NW of Kaesong


Another example : " next day April 4 the MiG-15 pilot Starshii Leitenant (1st Lt.) Fiodor A. Shebanov scored the first victory of the 196th IAP when bagged one F-86A (not admitted by USAF but confirmed by the guncamera footage and the fact that a Soviet ground party led by Major V. P. Zhuchenko found the Sabre's wreckage in the ground)"

Apparently, Russian ground search group finds the F-86A on the ground, however according to official loss-count that day, April, 4, 1951, the USAF had not lost any F-86A. Search here if you like : KORWALD Date of Loss Report

Third example : - " 7 April the MiG drivers of the 176th GvIAP shot down the F-80C of Jack Thompson (downed by Boris Obratsov) and the B-29A BuNo 44-86268 (by Ivan Suchkov); 
- on April 10 again Fiodor Shebanov shot-up the F-86A BuNo 49-1093 and his buddy the WW2 ace Kapetan Aleksandr Vasiko bagged the F-80C of Douglas Matheson (KIA). " 


Jack Thompson's F-80 shows up : KORWALD Loss Incident Summary

as hit by ground fire...

but not F-86A BuNo 49-1093 and Douglas Matheson's F-80. 

Now the same situation appears with the US side claiming something that doesn't appear in Soviet records, the best example would be Russel Brown's famous first jet vs jet kill. 

The fact is that the actual real UN actual air losses by MiGs will not be known for sure for a long time. Spurious claims were certainly made by the two sides, for example the numerous F-86 kill claims made by Soviet pilots were in many cases, if indeed real, other types of US/UN aircraft as Western fighters were often misidentified. Same situation of overclaiming appeared during the BoB, over the Eastern Front or in the Cold War air battles over Korea and Vietnam (yes the 2:1 kill ratio is too, but I'll leave this for another day maybe). Most of the time, overclaiming if motivated by a socio-political issue (i.e.: propaganda if you like), the fact that the military shows the people what it wants to see. 

This quote might explain better (Air Combat Episodes) : 

Turning to the question of aces, we would to place our attention on the question of those achievements which are found in our sources of information. As is known, any sort of validated statistics, which lay out the results of the combat work of Soviet pilots in Korea has not been published up until the present time. On the other hand, the success of our American rivals has been widely published in the mass information media of both that time and in the latest works on the history of the conflict. But at the same time, as to this information, which sharply differs from our own, alas, we have not been able to correct the accounting or, at the very least, find any which is more correct that what we present in the following recounting. At that time, documents in our archives on Soviet aviation units were only permitted access for the internal use of the VVS, whereas the Far Eastern Air Force of the USAF controlled the data which was released for public use. But the public at that time was only interested in the valor shown over "Mig Alley" in what was otherwise a completely unpopular war. In this, the attempts of journalists to wipe the smoke of minimizing the losses and maximizing the victory claims from the eyes of the public was simply inevitable. Remember that this was the epoch of the "Cold War" and it was completely natural that papers publish the achievements of simple American buddies who were protecting the ideals of freedom in the face of the "Red Menace"and racked up one victory after another - this was what they got even if the reality was taking losses. The creator of the classic work "The US Air Force in Korea 1950-53", Robert Futrell, sets the number of Sabre losses in air combat in Korea as around 58. This number is found and frequently cited to us in the pages of the translation of the anthology by James Stewart, "Air Power - The Decisive Force in Korea".(11) (12) Several years later, a new figure appeared - 78. Now many Western researchers, drawing from the document "Sabre Measures (Charlie)", published by the USAF in 1970, were advised that 103 Sabres were lost in aerial combat in Korea. But even that number is wrong! In accordance with the document, the 103 Sabres lost were lost between June 1951 and July 1953. But why not for the entire war? And why do the researchers, reading from one and the same primary sources, determine a new figure every ten or fifteen years? For that reason, we can frequently not speak about the victory claimed by a Soviet pilot without having the losses admitted by the American side on the same day the claim was made. Perhaps we will find out - in another ten years.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 17, 2007)

Well put Lape and very informative. My point here is when the Soviets claimed the same amount of Sabers destroyed as actually rotated though Korea, I think its a bit more than exaggerating. Yes, both sides have exaggerated claims, but its a matter of putting into perspective which side is more believable. We in the west are flexible enough to accept change and allow updated numbers somewhat change history, those who follow this stuff in the former Soviet Union are a little less flexible.

As far as the spinning of the Mig-15. If you're engaged in aerial combat and force your enemy to do adverse maneuvers that cause the destruction of his aircraft, there is no reason why you shouldn't claim that as a kill. You don't need gunfire in aerial combat. As late as GW1 an F-15 brought down a Mig-25 by making the opponent reverse an maneuver and crash into terrain. The US pilot was credited with a kill.



> In accordance with the document, the 103 Sabres lost were lost between June 1951 and July 1953. But why not for the entire war? And why do the researchers, reading from one and the same primary sources, determine a new figure every ten or fifteen years? For that reason, we can frequently not speak about the victory claimed by a Soviet pilot without having the losses admitted by the American side on the same day the claim was made. Perhaps we will find out - in another ten years.



Sabers didn't get deployed until late 1950 early 1951 and maybe that's why the list starts in 1951, but again that leaves out some losses in late 1950. The lists change because there is access to records in both the US and former Soviet Union becoming more accurate and I think we'll see these list on the Korean War continue to change as more data become asscessible.


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## Erich (May 17, 2007)

hmmmmmmmmmmmm this is WW 2 piston engine ?, it appears jet vs jet to me


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## FLYBOYJ (May 17, 2007)

You're right Erich, sorry - we'll move it over....


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## comiso90 (May 17, 2007)

* James Finnegan (P-47) vs. Adolf Galland (Me-262). *

I was leading the top flight cover of P-47’s that was escorting the B-26’s to their target. As I gazed down, I saw 2 objects come zipping through the formation, and 2 bombers blew up immediately. I watched the 2 objects go through the bomber formation, and thought “that can’t be a prop job....it’s got to be one of the 262 jets.”

I was at about 13,000 feet and estimated them to be at about 9-10,000. They were climbing, and I pulled a split-S towards the one that turned left, and almost ended up right on top of him - - about 75 yards away!!

I gave a 3 second burst and saw strikes on the right hand engine and wing root. I was going so fast, I went right through everything, and guessed my speed at about 450+ mph. I recorded it as a probable.

I was flying a D model Thunderbolt with a bubble canopy, a natural metal finish and a black nose. The 262 had a green and brown mottled camouflage with some specs of yellow.

That turned out to be my last flight in a P-47. My kills for the war were an FW-190 and an Me-109, in addition to the Me-262.



USAAF James Finnegan-P47



Galland led JV 44 until 26 April 1945 gaining up to seven victories flying the Me 262 jet fighter. On this day Generalleutnant Galland led 12 rocket-equipped Me 262s from München-Reim to intercept a formation of B-26 medium bombers targetting the airfield at Lechfeld. He claimed two of the bombers, but with cannon-fire rather than the rockets with which his Me 262 was armed. During his initial approach, Galland had failed to deactivate a safety switch which prevented him from firing the rockets. During his attacks on the bombers, Galland’s Me 262 was struck by return fire. Disengaging from the bombers, he was bounced by a P-47 flown by 1st Lt James J Finnegan of the 50th Fighter Group, USAAF. Galland was wounded in the right knee and his aircraft received further damage. He was able to bring his crippled jet back to München-Reim and successfully land, albeit with a flat nose wheel tyre. He was forced to leap from his aircraft and take shelter because the airfield was under attack by American fighters. The wound suffered in this encounter were serious enough to end his combat flying.

Aces of the Luftwaffe - Adolf Galland




..






..


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## Saberstrike (May 26, 2007)

F4U Corsair killed a MiG-15. I know that. I don't know who did it before.


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## R Leonard (May 29, 2007)

Saberstrike said:


> F4U Corsair killed a MiG-15. I know that. I don't know who did it before.



Info way, way back on page 2 of this discussion. See

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/piston-engine-aircraft-jet-kills-1226-2.html

Regards,

Rich


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## drgondog (May 30, 2007)

lesofprimus said:


> Yea, but that fact has been known to the majority of us "Buffs" for many many years.... I've met Yeager before, a couple of times, and the man was a buffoon.... My Grandfather actually got into an argument with him and called him several expletives, including liar....
> 
> Mr Yeager could care less about anyones assessment of his accomplishments... His own assessment of himself is all that matters.... He ever denies Welshs' claim to have broken the sound barrier first, even though there were witnesses to the sonic boom he caused....





lesofprimus said:


> Pretty harsh comments about General Yeager - he is a lot of things -cocky, opinionated, stubborn - but not a buffoon.
> 
> Shouldn't you have to have an awesome resume of personal valour, major accomplishments and superior character to proclaim Yeager a Buffoon? I have known him a long time and learned to manage my own proclivity to 'open mouth and insert foot', disagreed many times and been 'shouted down with "I was there" argument closings when I knew he was wrong. I've been offended by his abruptness and charmed with a smile and a handshake - but I respect this man greatly.
> 
> ...


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## FLYBOYJ (May 30, 2007)

drgondog said:


> lesofprimus said:
> 
> 
> > Yea, but that fact has been known to the majority of us "Buffs" for many many years.... I've met Yeager before, a couple of times, and the man was a buffoon.... My Grandfather actually got into an argument with him and called him several expletives, including liar....
> ...



Bill, I'm going to tell you something - I have met Yeager on several occasions and I'll flat out say it, he's an *arrogant jerk* and maybe baffoon could be thrown in as well. On one occasion I seen him embarrass an active duty AF Major at the Edwards Aero Club just because the Major (The club safety officer) wanted to fly a certain departure procedure out of the base (because he thought it was safer) and Yeager didn't agree with his rationale. Yeager embarrassed this man at the Test Pilot's school auditorium in front of about 100 people. I seen his outbursts on several occasions around the Antelope Valley (where I used to live) and know others in the aerospace community who hold the same opinion of him. Does he have a right to be arrogant? Perhaps. I also know (knew) Tony LeVier, the Rutans, John Sharpe, Fritz Fulton, Paul Metz, and Tom Morganfield to name a few (and I'm not bragging here) and although their accomplishments don't come close to Yeager, none of them behave with the same rudeness and arrogance I seen Yeager display several times. I wish I've flown half the aircraft he did and accomplished one quarter of what he did, but with that said if he treated me with the same disrespect I seen him do to others, I would not of had any problem telling him to his face where he could go - then or now!

And with that said I suggest you look around this forum more and find out who the mods are and some of our backgrounds and our connections to some of these people. I don't care if you're the Red Baron, talking down, shouting down and being a plain jerk to people who look up to you eclipses the highest accomplishments.


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## drgondog (May 30, 2007)

And with that said I suggest you look around this forum more and find out who the mods are and some of our backgrounds. You are entitled to your opinions but I would suggest trading lightly when you throw an insult at one of the mods, it's not appreciated. I hope I make myself perfectly clear.

Yes you do. 

You make it perfectly CLEAR that because you are a 'Mod' you want me to tread lightly when a Moderator with ZERO qualifications on a par (or within light years) with Yeager calls him a Buffoon. 

YOU as a Mod make it CLEAR that you don't like him - I'm ok with that - there are times when I don't like him either - but back to the single point.

Neither YOU - despite your 'lofty' role as 'Moderator', nor the other "Mod's" have the qualifications to describe him as a Buffoon" A Clown, a Jester, a Witless person making coarse jokes" - you have the RIGHT but not the QUAL... nor does any other Moderator on this forum. 

You for example, how many missions have you flown over enemy territory in the same high threat environment (If you flew w/355TFW or one of the Thud wings in Nam my hat is off to you - but still doesn't give You the Qual to call him a Buffoon!), or flew ships that were as likely to blow up as match a take off with a landing? And did it for years? Forget about flying 'as many ships as he did - think about how many times he was the First to fly that ship?

Character assassinations such as questioning his integrity in his claims fits in that category also. 


Good Day Sir!


Bill Marshall

PS If you have the cojones to let this stand rather than just delete the thread - my hat is off to you - at least you have integrity.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 30, 2007)

drgondog said:


> And with that said I suggest you look around this forum more and find out who the mods are and some of our backgrounds. You are entitled to your opinions but I would suggest trading lightly when you throw an insult at one of the mods, it's not appreciated. I hope I make myself perfectly clear.
> 
> Yes you do.
> 
> ...




*Pal, I could give a rat's @ss how many missions he, you or anyone flew during any war at any time. His antics make him a baffoon just like the same way you are defending him as if he was some rockstar and you're a teenage groopie in heat. Get over it - the man is an idiot, baffoon, jerk @sshole etc. And I would call anyone on this if they treated me or anyone around me with the same disrespect I seen him display toward others.*


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## FLYBOYJ (May 30, 2007)

drgondog said:


> PS If you have the cojones to let this stand rather than just delete the thread - my hat is off to you - at least you have integrity.


*AND YES THIS POST WILL STAND HERE AND MAYBE YOU GET GET MR. YEAGER TO READ WHAT SOME OF HIS "FANS" REALLY THINK ABOUT HIM. I'LL NEVER WEAR HIS JOCKSTRAP BUT WILL NEVER RESPECT HIM AS A PERSON DESPITE HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS...

AND YES I HAVE COJONES 2 OF THEM TO BE EXACT*


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## drgondog (May 30, 2007)

At least the Moderator gene pool seems to be consistent! 

It seems that your respect is commanded by people 'you like' not what they accomplish in life. Most people like you get their jollies tearing other people down rather than focus on What You Can Do To Make a Difference - are you like that?

Who sounds more like a Rock Star Groupie? Your prerogative - it's your forum you can 'do or say' what ever you wish.. just get over breathing your own air too much - "sayin' it don't make it so".

Regards,

Bill


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## FLYBOYJ (May 30, 2007)

drgondog said:


> At least the Moderator gene pool seems to be consistent!


 As consistant as the @ssholes we have to deal with here.



drgondog said:


> It seems that your respect is commanded by people 'you like' not what they accomplish in life. Most people like you get their jollies tearing other people down rather than focus on What You Can Do To Make a Difference - are you like that?


I never degraded his accomplishments, the man is one of the greatest pilots to ever fly, but at the same time the man is a jerk, @sshole, etc. and I would tell him to his face, the same way I'm telling you you're being an @sshole. Does that bother you?!?!?


drgondog said:


> Who sounds more like a Rock Star Groupie? Your prerogative - it's your forum you can 'do or say' what ever you wish.. just get over breathing your own air too much - "sayin' it don't make it so".Regards,
> 
> Bill


You're an idiot, I suggest you go play in another sand box....


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## evangilder (May 30, 2007)

It's time to pack this in Bill, now. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You may not agree with that, and that is fine. But if you have a problem with it, I suggest you either take it to the private message function of the website, or get back on topic. This is the only time I will say this.


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## lesofprimus (May 30, 2007)

Now its my turn.... 

Sounds like Mr. Bill likes having Yeagers **** in his mouth... Doenst like mean people saying bad things about his boy.... Yeager was and is a prick, and if I chose the word buffoon to describe him, so be it.... Go cry in ur Rice Crispies Billy-boy, cause u'll find ZERO sympathy for that self-inflated jerk...

Now, as to ur little rant:


> Shouldn't you have to have an awesome resume of personal valour, major accomplishments and superior character to proclaim Yeager a Buffoon?


Yup, and I do.... Since u didnt bother to find out who runs this forum, I am a former Navy SEAL who served with distinction in several theatres of conflict... I've been awarded for Valor and been recognized by Admirals for my dedication and conviction... My father was a Special Forces bastard who served 2 1/2 tours in Nam, including a battlefiled commision.... My Grandfather was William Case, the third highest scoring Blacksheep from VMF-214... 

Ive been around the Ace Pilots Assoc for many many years and rubbed elbows and kneecaps with alot of my Grandfathers pals and buddies.... EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO HAS BROUGHT UP THE SUBJECT OF YEAGER SAYS THE SAME THING...

I do not disrespect his combat record, nor do I belittle his contribution to the success of aerial combat.... He wouldnt do that about my combat record, nor would u..... I have a problem with his holier than thou, piss on u turds attitude that even u have been privvy to.... That sh!t dont fly....

Now that my little lesson is over, let me say one last thing to u so u will fully understand.... Ur attack at Joe is unwarranted and if u continue will lead to infractions and banning... WE DO NOT TOLERATE BULLSH!T FROM ANY MEMBER HERE, WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE WORKING ON A BOOK OR LIVE 30 MILES AWAY FORM ONE OF OUR MODS.... Insulting the Mods is a one way ticket pal... Take whatever direction u want here, but be advised, Ill kick ur @ss to the curb in a New York minute if u u go there again.... Mods here deserve respect because we're Mods and run the place with an iron fist... Dont like it, walk....



> It seems that your respect is commanded by people 'you like' not what they accomplish in life.


Respect isnt earned by an individuals life accomplishments, but by what qualities an individual respects someone for... I dont go around bragging about myself, telling everyone I know how many people I killed and how many claymores I triggered.... I dont need the popularity or exposure... Yeager did and does... "Look everyone, I'm special, look what I accomplished, u didnt do sh!t compared to me so fu*k off".... People like Yeager with that attitude can blow me, as well as all those cronies like urself that like nothing more than sucking off "Heros"....

Opinions a rampant on the internet, and if u have as much "experience" at doing what we do, then u should know that and not get ur panties in a bunch whenever someone insults ur ****-buddy... I got a box of Kleenex if u need some tissues to wipe ur tears, but take ur whining @ss back to whatever board u crawled out from and tell them I said "Fu ck Yeager"!!!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 30, 2007)

Oh boy...

I was hoping this would get defused.


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## Matt308 (May 30, 2007)

.


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## Erich (May 30, 2007)

I'm not sure if this is going to help matters but ............I'd sure LIKE TO ADD FROM THE HISTORICAL POINT GUYS in the very near future...........

ok game over lets agree then to disagree about one fighter pilots attributes

where was I now, January of 45 right ?


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## lesofprimus (May 30, 2007)

Yes Erich, Jan 45...

Matt, u always seem to brighten my day my man...


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## drgondog (May 30, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> .



Matt - you better take an all day lunch if you want the Cape with an M-14.. it's a toss up and I'm bettin on the 'boy'. I have only shot two - one with a 375 and one with a 416 Rigby.

I took a lot of time looking for the shot to break down both shoulders and would have passed otherwise. 

I DO respect that animal above all others - not that this has anything to do w/Jet Kills..

Has anyone mentioned the AD Spad kill in Viet Nam on the Sandy mission?

Regards,

Bill


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## lesofprimus (May 30, 2007)

Bill, I am known here as The Cape Buffalo, hence Matts always witty addition to ANY conversation...


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## FLYBOYJ (May 30, 2007)

drgondog said:


> w/Jet Kills..
> 
> Has anyone mentioned the AD Spad kill in Viet Nam on the Sandy mission?
> 
> ...




20 June 1965. Johnson and Hartman - classic....


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## drgondog (May 30, 2007)

lesofprimus said:


> Bill, I am known here as The Cape Buffalo, hence Matts always witty addition to ANY conversation...



that figures - I've never looked at Cape Buffalo as a creature of grace and subtlety... i mostlly look at it as something to kill or leave strictly alone... and hope it doesn't get me first..


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## lesofprimus (May 31, 2007)

Hence why they call me that....


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## R Leonard (May 31, 2007)

Two MiG-17s shot down by Spads . . . 

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/piston-engine-aircraft-jet-kills-1226-2.html

Rich


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## Der Meister (Jun 13, 2007)

didn't a few p51's shoot down some 262's? i've seen a vid of something shooting down a 262....one of the 262's engines had failed


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 13, 2007)

Der Meister said:


> didn't a few p51's shoot down some 262's? i've seen a vid of something shooting down a 262....one of the 262's engines had failed


Go to the beginning of this thread, you'll see this and them some....


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## Seawitch (Jun 21, 2007)

Der Meister said:


> didn't a few p51's shoot down some 262's? i've seen a vid of something shooting down a 262....one of the 262's engines had failed


General Galland was one of those who was in an ME 262 and got shot down by a Mustang, 'I was caught napping' he said in his autobiography, that was in April 1945, he had an engine destroyed and a leg wound, but got his aircraft home on one damaged engine, so am I using some license to say he was shot down? He never returned to combat.
I have the letters still from the Mustang Pilots association in respect of my enquiries as to who shot him down, I had a painting in mind....but the pilot is unknown.


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## pbfoot (Jun 21, 2007)

I've looked back in this thread and nowhere I can find who shot down the first one and when


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## Erich (Jun 21, 2007)

pb :

look about mid-way on page # 3. August 1944 78th fg kill

yeah In know I've neglected this thread for quite sometime .......... shame on me


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## blu3y4 (Jun 22, 2007)

apparently the Tempest had over 20 me-262 kills. (if anyone has the dates, location,pilot etc. for some these that would be great)


cheers


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## Erich (Jun 22, 2007)

somewhere buried in the text is the total, and yes I have dates. I am still trying to follow primarily the Us participation but maybe we could do a sub-link guys and list RAF kills/probables on this ??


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## marlin (Jun 29, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> From the Air War Museum website:
> 
> "Sea Furies served extensively in the Korean War, operating from Royal Navy carriers HMS Glory, HMS Ocean and HMS Theseus, and Australian carrier HMAS Sydney. They usually paired with Fairey Fireflies for ground attack missions. The Sea Fury excelled in this role, often proving superior to the enemy’s modern jets. For example, on August 9, 1952, Royal Navy Lieutenant “Hoagy” Carmichael, flying a Sea Fury of HMS Ocean’s 802 Squadron, shot down a Soviet-built North Korean Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG 15, marking the first such kill by a piston-engined fighter, and the only air-to-air kill by a British pilot flying a British aircraft in the Korean War."



"The only air to air kill by a Brit. pilot in a Brit. aircraft in the Korean War" ?
That takes some believing !


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 29, 2007)

marlin said:


> "The only air to air kill by a Brit. pilot in a Brit. aircraft in the Korean War" ?
> That takes some believing !



Well it seems that's the truth. I don't know of any RAF exchange pilots who flew F-86s who got a Mig although there may be one...


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## Seawitch (Jul 11, 2007)

Whatever....this was the first Jet Victim of the Royal Navy . It first came to my attention when I saw an oil painting of it in a West London gallery.


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## renrich (Aug 7, 2007)

Referring to the "discussion" about Chuck Yeager I was wondering if any of you knew Marion Carl and would care to compare his demeanor with Yeager's. Carl's list of accomplishments compare pretty well with Yeager's.


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## renrich (Aug 8, 2007)

Speaking of Cape Buffalo, I saw the most incredible video I have ever seen on CNN a while ago. It featured a herd of Cape Buffalo(which of course the tv guy called water buffalo) a pride of lionesses, a crocodile and the victim, a young Cape Buffalo. Has anyone else seen it?


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 8, 2007)

renrich said:


> Referring to the "discussion" about Chuck Yeager I was wondering if any of you knew Marion Carl and would care to compare his demeanor with Yeager's. Carl's list of accomplishments compare pretty well with Yeager's.



I heard stories about Carl being a bit gruff, but I don't think anyone could compare with Yeager...


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## comiso90 (Aug 8, 2007)

renrich said:


> Speaking of Cape Buffalo, I saw the most incredible video I have ever seen on CNN a while ago. It featured a herd of Cape Buffalo(which of course the tv guy called water buffalo) a pride of lionesses, a crocodile and the victim, a young Cape Buffalo. Has anyone else seen it?



I made a thread, "Battle at Kruger" in off topic that has the video


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## ccheese (Aug 8, 2007)

Renrich:

Yea, saw it last night on TV. Heres the scoop:

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

Charles


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## JoeB (Aug 8, 2007)

marlin said:


> "The only air to air kill by a Brit. pilot in a Brit. aircraft in the Korean War" ?
> That takes some believing !


It's true and shouldn't be suprising because the only British fighter units in the Korean War were piston carrier sdns and they seldom encountered enemy a/c, just a few occasions right around the time of that victory, July and August 1952, a Sea Fury and 2 Fireflies were lost in other of those encounters. The opponents appear to have been Chinese, who lost a couple of MiG's in that general period hunting UN fighter bombers along the west coast of NK, but I know of no specific account by them of that combat.

This site lists British pilots credited with victories in Korea, all others on exchange with F-86 snds as already mentioned (generally reliable site, but official victory tallies often vary by source):
Jan J. Safarik: Air Aces Home Page

As long as others opened piston engine jet victories up to Korea  , the North Koreans scored one: July 19, 1950 F-80C's engaged NK Yak-9P's near Taejon claiming 3, but one F-80 was damaged and crashed killing the pilot before he could make an emergency landing, the first US jet lost in air combat.
KORWALD Loss Incident Summary
A captured document shows that two Yak's were actually downed, naming the pilots. A defector account corroborates that saying the same pilots (who obviously survived) claimed 3 F-80's, each.

Joe


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## fer-de-lance (Aug 26, 2007)

Hey JoeB, good to see you here. ChiCom sources say that on July 27, 1952 the 3rd Air Division claimed 4 Mk-5 (Firefly FR-Mk5?) south of Pyongyang and the 51st Regiment of the 18th Air Division claimed one kill. 

That was the day when 825 SQ from HMS Ocean was attacked by MiG's and had one Firefly damaged badly enough that it had to force-land (wheels up) on Paeyang-do. Another 825SQ Firefly from the same flight (D) ditched that day but claimed to have been damaged by ground fire. Are these the two Firefly losses you were referring to? 

The 18th Air Division's other regiment, the 52nd, was the unit involved in the action on August 9th, 1952. They claimed one "F-Mk8" but mentioned no losses. However, the pilots of the Sea Furies in Carmichael's flight clearly saw a plane crash into a hillside. At first they thought it was one of theirs but a radio check found everyone accounted for. So, it was assumed that it was a MiG that crashed.

Two other 802SQ Sea Furies from HMS Ocean were damaged during the fight with the MiG's, one force landed at Cho-do and another managed to get back to the carrier.


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## JoeB (Aug 26, 2007)

fer-de-lance said:


> 1. Hey JoeB, good to see you here
> 
> 2. That was the day when 825 SQ from HMS Ocean was attacked by MiG's and had one Firefly damaged badly enough that it had to force-land (wheels up) on Paeyang-do. Another 825SQ Firefly from the same flight (D) ditched that day but claimed to have been damaged by ground fire. Are these the two Firefly losses you were referring to?
> 
> 3. The 18th Air Division's other regiment, the 52nd, was the unit involved in the action on August 9th, 1952.


1. Thanks; maybe I know you too under another name somewhere else?

2. Yes, but I'm not questioning the recorded cause of one of those losses. Looking back at Landsdown "With the Carriers in Korea" pg. 269, excerpt of 825 sdn diary, I just read over it too fast: they did give the cause as flak, causing coolant leak leading to ditching, for one and MiG (causing belly landing) for the other. The bellied plane's final fate isn't clear either, although I'd count forcing a belly landing on a beach as 'victory' for the opposing plane. In the picture on p.271 of the book its nose is being lifted off the beach (at Paengyong-do) by a crane, and its serial appears to be WB415 (or 416); neither was officially written off in 1952, so perhaps it was repaired.

3. Could you give a specific source, please, for this and the other Chinese unit ID's? Thanks.

Joe


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## fer-de-lance (Aug 27, 2007)

Joe, we've swapped emails a while back on nightfighting in Korea, particularly the circumstances surrounding the loss of a Skyknight.

Source of the Chinese Unit ID:
Wang, Yu-zhong
YIDAI TIANJIAO: XIN ZHONGGUO KONGJUN SHIZHAN LU
publ. 1992 ZHONGGONG ZHONGYANG DANGXIAO CHU BAN SHE, Beijing
(Chinese Communist Party School Publishing)
ISBN：75035051** / E297.5

A search of the web found discussion board postings which appears to be copied straight from Chinese PLAAF publications. One revealed that the Aug. 9th, 1952 action involved 8 MiG's. One flight of 4 from the 18th Air Division (AD)/52nd Air Regiment (AR) led by the deputy regimental commander Zhang, Chuan-zhi claimed one kill against "F-Mk8" while covered by another 4 led by the deputy commander of the 3rd AD/7th AR Sun, Jing-Hua. 

That particular summary of the 18th AD noted that this was the first victory for the 18th AD. It did not mention losses specific to that date or any other date but gave the following summary:

between May 22 and Dec 5 1952

engaged in 7 air combats;
claimed 6 kills;
suffered 3 shot down, 3 damaged and one pilot killed.


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## JoeB (Aug 28, 2007)

fer-de-lance said:


> A search of the web found discussion board postings which appears to be copied straight from Chinese PLAAF publications. One revealed that the Aug. 9th, 1952 action involved 8 MiG's. One flight of 4 from the 18th Air Division (AD)/52nd Air Regiment (AR) led by the deputy regimental commander Zhang, Chuan-zhi claimed one kill against "F-Mk8" while covered by another 4 led by the deputy commander of the 3rd AD/7th AR Sun, Jing-Hua.


Thanks,
This?:
»Ô»ÍµÄÀú³Ì¡ª¡ªÈËÃñ¿Õ¾üµÄ×òÌì¡¢½ñÌìºÍÃ÷Ìì£¨Í¼ÎÄ£© - ¿Õ¾ü°æ - ³¬¼¶´ó±¾ÓªÂÛÌ³ - ³¬È»ÎïÍâÓÐÈÝÄË´ó - º£¾ü,¿Õ¾ü,Â½¾ü,ÎäÆ÷,Ä£ÐÍ,¾üÃÔ,ÀúÊ·,ÎÄ»¯,ÒÕÊõ,ÈËÎÄ,¿ÆÆÕ - Powered by CJDBY.NET

It's also on the official 50th anniversary KW Chinese chronology I copied from the web a long time ago but never noticed (perhaps because my Chinese reading stinks  though a little less now than it did at the time). It seems to say 8 and 8 a/c of 18/52 and 3/7 for 2 victories over 'FMK-8's'
¼ÍÄî¿¹ÃÀÔ®³¯50ÖÜÄê_ÖÐ¹úÍø 
(only the google-cache version seems to ever come up now)

To compare this back to the 802 sdn diary excerpted in Landsdowne p 273-4:
0630 15 mi N of Chinnampo (Nampo) Carmichael's flight of 4 Sea Furies sighted 8 MiG's. 4-5 minute dogfight, where all four FAA pilots fired and at least 3 reported registering hits in 'a dozen of so firing passes', mainly head on; though one pulled in front of SubLt BE Ellis on an overshoot, and was reported by him to disengage 'at reduced speed' with two other MiG's covering it after being hit in the wings. No specific MiG seemed to be followed from hit to crash, but rather as the MiG's departed an aircraft was seen to crash, feared to be a Sea Fury but when all 4 pilots reported in OK assumed to be a MiG. Claim 1 dest/0 prob/2 dam. 'from a confused situation Carmichael as flight leader got the credit for its destruction'. Although, a quote from Carmichael on p 275 somewhat contradicts the sdn diary by saying he was sure he got the MiG and followed it from hit to crash.

0800 'a report came through' that Lt RJ Clark's Sea Fury, of another flight, was hit in the right wing and caught fire. He put the fire out by sideslipping and returned safely. Lt HM McEnery of the same flight claimed a MiG damaged.

"by the time Clark returned" Lt. RH Hallam's flight was attacked. "Hallam was leading a weaving procession of 1 Sea Fury, 2 MiG's and 1 Fury down the Taedong Gang (river)...Hallam was obliged to make a wheels up landing on Chodo...large hole just behind the cockpit where a 37mm had found its mark".

So, there were three separate actions with at least the first two possibly too far apart in time to be the same MiG's. In any case since Sea Furies were hit in the second two encounters, odds are those are the ones which make up the 2 'FMK-8' claims. It seems possible the first could have been a different unit or different a/c of the same unit but in any case I agree with your implication that the lack of mention of losses in the brief official account doesn't mean much. Pretty heavy overall PLAAF MiG losses in Korea are acknowledged in total, but specific accounts seem to emphasize covering the claims.

One more source to throw out in Zhang in "Red Wings Over the Yalu" p 190 gives the claim for PLAAF fighter bomber hunting south of Pyongyang in July-Oct 1952 as 30 UN a/c (jet and naval prop) for 2 MiG's destroyed. His footnote is partly to I believe the same book you mentioned, though he transliterates the spelling differently.

Anyway now I've learned some more about this incident, and I hope at some point we get still more details from the MiG side.

Joe


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## fer-de-lance (Aug 29, 2007)

Yes, right you are. The CJDBY post said Zhang, Chuan-zhi led *8* MiG's and was covered by the 3AD ... The other 50th Anniversay site clearly said it was 8 and 8 ... 好眼力！

Off topic but notice 超级大本营 thread post #707 - next to the last sentence(!) *6号机赵志财被美机击伤，跳伞时因高度过低而牺牲。*

Lt Col. William Bertram's claim is confirmed - it belonged to the Chinese 4AD 10AR! Looks like the ACIG article at : 

Honchos

needs updating


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## Erich (Aug 30, 2007)

Attention gents

Joe needs to take the last page and 1/2 a restart a new thread on jets vs jets. you guys are all OT here, and flubbing up my thread ........... props vs jets


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 30, 2007)

Perhaps we could break this in two - WW2 and post WW2??


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## Erich (Aug 30, 2007)

Joe make a sticky out of it. think it would be wise to have both, I was planning to add a very short snippet to the original thread later today


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 30, 2007)

It's already a sticky - fire away...


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## Erich (Aug 30, 2007)

back earlier in the thread,

October 7, 1944 364th fg pilot Lt. Elmer Taylor takes R. Zimmermanns Me 163 out to lunch, the rocket gizmo crash lands and pilots Farrel and W. Erfkamp blast it to pieces


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## Wildcat (Aug 30, 2007)

Erich, from the book "Spitfire, Mustang and Kittyhawk in Australian Service"

- Australian pilot F/O John Haslope DFC whilst flying a Mustang III with 165 sqn RAF, shot don a Me163 on the 10th April '45 while escorting Lancasters and Halifaxes on a raid to Leipzig.

- Australian pilot Flt Lt Danny Reid DFC whilst flying Spitfire XIV RM796 with 41 sqn RAF, shot down an Ar234 near Enschede on the 2nd March 1945. Reid with one other Spit was patrolling around Nijmegen at the time.

Also have

- Australian pilot Frederick "Tony" Gaze whilst flying a Spitfire with 610 sqn RAF, shot down an Me262 over Munster on 14 Feb '45. Also shared in the destruction of a Ar234 on April 12 '45 with 41 sqn RAF.


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## Erich (Aug 30, 2007)

wildcat do you have pics of the pilots and their mounts possibly ?


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## fer-de-lance (Sep 2, 2007)

Spoke with Dr. Roscoe Brown PhD. (formerly of the 332nd FG) in New York about his action on March 24, 1945. 

Brown mentioned that he chased one Me-262 after it had made a pass on some bombers but lost it in the clouds. He climbed back to a position to cover the bombers when another Me-262 approached from behind. He made a hard right turn and the Me-262 overshot. It apparently slowed down while flying under the bombers to get into position for a shot at them.

Brown tracked the Me-262 with his K-14 lead computing gun sight and score with a burst. The Me-262 slowed down even further. Brown was able to hit it with an extended burst and pieces came off. The German pilot then bailed out.


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## Wildcat (Sep 3, 2007)

Erich said:


> wildcat do you have pics of the pilots and their mounts possibly ?



Sorry Erich I don't. However the book I got the info from has gun camera pics of the Me163 shot down by Haslope, but my scanner is buggered at the mo. I reckon Graeme might have the book, he could possibly scan those pics for you.


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## chuckn49 (Feb 19, 2008)

Erich said:


> 7 Ocotber, Kommando Nowotny intercepted B-24's and covering P-47's flown by Hub Zemke and Lt N. Benoit shot down Heinz Russel's Me 262 with Heinz bailing out successfully.
> 
> Everyone probably knows about this 361st pilot Urban Drew who shot down 2 Me 262's of Kommando Nowotny. Drew waited until 2 jets took off got in behind and shot down Lt. Gerhard Korbert who was killed in his crash-blew up and Hauptmann Arnold who was able to pop the canopy and bail out injured.
> 
> A I./KG 51 pilot bailed out unhurt under the P-47 guns of 78th fg Major R. E. Conner. the Me 262 was in the alnding approach near Osnabrück.


Just a quick correction to your Zemke post re: shooting down an ME-262. Zemke and his wingman, Lt. Norman Benoit were flying P-51s, not P-47s


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## drgondog (Feb 24, 2008)

chuckn49 said:


> Just a quick correction to your Zemke post re: shooting down an ME-262. Zemke and his wingman, Lt. Norman Benoit were flying P-51s, not P-47s



That is correct. Zemke was CO of 479th Fg at the time and the 479th transitioned from P-38L's in late September.


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## Graeme (Feb 24, 2008)

Wildcat said:


> Sorry Erich I don't. However the book I got the info from has gun camera pics of the Me163 shot down by Haslope, but my scanner is buggered at the mo. I reckon Graeme might have the book, he could possibly scan those pics for you.



My apologies Wildcat, I only discovered your post today.







Wildcat said:


> - Australian pilot Flt Lt Danny Reid DFC whilst flying Spitfire XIV RM796 with 41 sqn RAF, shot down an Ar234 near Enschede on the 2nd March 1945. Reid with one other Spit was patrolling around Nijmegen at the time.



Reid was the squadron's artist and drew this accurate sketch when he returned from the mission. Good rendition of the Arado, from memory, as up until the encounter, he had never seen one before.


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## Wildcat (Feb 25, 2008)

They're the ones! Thanks Graeme


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## Heinz (Feb 29, 2008)

Very interesting wildcat and Graeme!


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## drgondog (Mar 3, 2008)

guys in three different sources so far, including Stars and Bars and Fighter Units of 8th, the award on October 7 for Zemke and Benoit was a shared Me 109 30 mi West of Chemnitz.

Where is the source for a 262?


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## chuckn49 (Mar 4, 2008)

drgondog said:


> guys in three different sources so far, including Stars and Bars and Fighter Units of 8th, the award on October 7 for Zemke and Benoit was a shared Me 109 30 mi West of Chemnitz.
> 
> Where is the source for a 262?


"The Messerschmitt Me 262 Combat Diary" by John Foreman and S. E. Harvey claim it was an Me 262 according to the gun cameras from Col. Zemke and Lt. Benoit's planes.

I know from talking to him that Lt. Benoit believed he had shot down an Me 262 but, and, once again from conversations with Lt. Benoit, that Col. Zemke apparently believed he had shot down the Me 262, too. 

Again, according to Foreman and Harvey, the plane was identified as belonging to Kommando Nowotny. John Frisbee seems to agree with this, too.

Naturally, in the heat and confusion of battle it is not unusual for pilots to believe things that did not happen. Since I was not there, I can only rely on the memories of one of the pilots involved.


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## drgondog (Mar 5, 2008)

chuckn49 said:


> "The Messerschmitt Me 262 Combat Diary" by John Foreman and S. E. Harvey claim it was an Me 262 according to the gun cameras from Col. Zemke and Lt. Benoit's planes.
> 
> I know from talking to him that Lt. Benoit believed he had shot down an Me 262 but, and, once again from conversations with Lt. Benoit, that Col. Zemke apparently believed he had shot down the Me 262, too.
> 
> ...



Chuck - this makes sense. By the time the award was processed by 8th FC into a Victory Credits Board Award, Zemke was a POW and yor brother probably would not have cared much one way or the other to try to correct - 

I have gotten all my award types from 8th FC VCB as USAF 85 only has the award or partial award with no type, and Frank Olynyk has his from both the 8th AF VCB as a starter, then Encounter Reports as his follow up. I haven't looked at the Encounter Report


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## JCook (Mar 15, 2008)

"*One a pilot from the 56th fg and the other from the 354th fg"*
You're referring to Wally Groce of the 63rd FS 56th FG and Kelly Gross of the 355th FS 354th FG. Both about 40 miles north of me.


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## bf109 Emil (Apr 9, 2008)

None...No 262 where shot down on the western front, unless an engine flamed out, or where picked off on landing by P-51's. Allied pilots may claim as so...but German records indicate no pilots bailing out or shot down prior to an engine flame-out and speed reduced to around 300 mph


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 9, 2008)

bf109 Emil said:


> None...No 262 where shot down on the western front, unless an engine flamed out, or where picked off on landing by P-51's. Allied pilots may claim as so...but German records indicate no pilots bailing out or shot down prior to an engine flame-out and speed reduced to around 300 mph


German records? Can you quote them?


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## Erich (Apr 9, 2008)

sorry 109E you are so wrong, I have seen the P-51 gun films showing 262 pilots bailing out, JG 7 's book which I quote as a source is full of documentation of pilots being shot down NO after flame outs..................how silly


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## Karl Sitts (Apr 9, 2008)

Erich, History is written by the victors... maybe the truth lies partially in the different systems of countingkillsby those keeping the records on the different sides. - Karl


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## drgondog (Apr 9, 2008)

Karl Sitts said:


> Erich, History is written by the victors... maybe the truth lies partially in the different systems of countingkillsby those keeping the records on the different sides. - Karl



Karl - there are many documented Encounter reports with witnesses on bail outs or complete destruction - usually from high deflection shots or lucky chasing shots in which an engine was damaged - but high speed nevertheless.

Why is it important to you one way or another?

BTW, one of the holy grails ARE records from the Luftwaffe for the latter months of the war - so what is your source of facts to dispute the witnessed encounter reports and gun camera film?


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## drgondog (Apr 9, 2008)

bf109 Emil said:


> None...No 262 where shot down on the western front, unless an engine flamed out, or where picked off on landing by P-51's. Allied pilots may claim as so...but German records indicate no pilots bailing out or shot down prior to an engine flame-out and speed reduced to around 300 mph



You realize if you take a hit in the engine and it flames out, or is otherwise debilitated, how would the pilot 'know' what the cause was? And so, damaged, would it make sense to get out or let the chasing fighter blow the Me 262 up? If a.) the jet is chased, and b.) the jet is abandoned, it is c.) destroyed and d.) the chasing pilot gets an air to air award.

If a 109 or Mustang takes a hit in the coolant and the pilot has to bail out - is he 'downed' or should you claim he 'only got out because his engine failed'??

And, like Joe - what records are you quoting?


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 9, 2008)

Karl Sitts said:


> Erich, History is written by the victors... maybe the truth lies partially in the different systems of countingkillsby those keeping the records on the different sides. - Karl


Ahhhh, I don't think so.

When you have combat reports from BOTH SIDES confirming what happened during a specific event and if its back up with gun camera footage, I think this goes beyond your comment....


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## Erich (Apr 9, 2008)

Karl what utter nonsense, sorry but after seeking records on the my relatives that served in the Luftwaffe and having access to both sides records I will say NOT. ! the gun cams prove too much plus first hand accts from the US pilots and the German crews flying the jets

I really wish those that are most interested in the 262 combats would quit believing the myths surrounding just how fast and uncatchable the jet was, guess I've just been researching this jet vs the prop jobs since the 1960's seeing all types of so called factual proofs for too many years.

I go back to JG 7 author M. Boehme who mentions time and again


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## drgondog (Apr 10, 2008)

Karl Sitts said:


> Erich, History is written by the victors... maybe the truth lies partially in the different systems of countingkillsby those keeping the records on the different sides. - Karl



try these records - the 262's in the gun camera film are dead, one is low altitude on final approach with gear down (unsporting?) the rest are ones caught at high altitude. 

I think this is the right link - the 262 stuff in middle and end of sequences 


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O9leOmDDGk_


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## bf109 Emil (Apr 11, 2008)

FLYBOYJ said:


> German records? Can you quote them?



I will have to have someone translate Gallands German Biography again, but will pass on...

a video of 262 that has a surprise to B17 crew...nice if never viewed before


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzdcUK-S4yY_

or if on youtube try this header...Messerschmitt Me-262 Schwalbe/Sturmvogel

bf109 Emil


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 11, 2008)

bf109 Emil said:


> I will have to have someone translate Gallands German Biography again, but will pass on...
> 
> a video of 262 that has a surprise to B17 crew...nice if never viewed before
> 
> ...



Galland may of had his opinions, the fact remains there is compelling evidence to show that Me 262s were indeed shot down at high altitudes with speeds over 300 mph and with both engines burning.


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## Erich (Apr 11, 2008)

sorry emil but that you tube vid was crock pieced together from different ww2 vids and German propaganda film of the jet over a German airfield, that just isn't going to back up your claim(s) at all man.

Gallands only first hand experience was in JV 44 and he did not have a real feel of fighting against US fighters nor the US Heavies of the 8th AF as his unit took on the 9th...........


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## bf109 Emil (Apr 11, 2008)

yes in the seat of a fighter...as jv 44 was an elite group he formed of top german aces flying jets armed with rockets and was created in march of '45...prior, he directed or controled luftwaffe fighter while in either a 110 or 210 later from a safe distance, targeting broken boxes, or one most vulnerable, while head of general de lagerfleiger...as for video being a crock, ok, i am not a production or film producer expert, nor knowledge able in that field...much the same as Spielberg bogus clip of Marshall"s speech (Saving Private Ryan) movie about Mrs. Bixby...as his researching should have known she had only 2 kids, one in the north, and one in the south...and...upon receiving Lincolns letter, she tore it up because she dispised him...as falsified extra sons to gather insurance benefits from army death payment to wifes or mothers...


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## ToughOmbre (Apr 11, 2008)

bf109 Emil said:


> much the same as Spielberg bogus clip of Marshall"s speech (Saving Private Ryan) movie about Mrs. Bixby...as his researching should have known she had only 2 kids, one in the north, and one in the south...and...upon receiving Lincolns letter, she tore it up because she dispised him...as falsified extra sons to gather insurance benefits from army death payment to wifes or mothers...



SPR was a movie/fiction. What does that have to do with this thread   

TO


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 11, 2008)

bf109 Emil said:


> None...No 262 where shot down on the western front, unless an engine flamed out, or where picked off on landing by P-51's. Allied pilots may claim as so...but German records indicate no pilots bailing out or shot down prior to an engine flame-out and speed reduced to around 300 mph



See below...


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## ccheese (Apr 11, 2008)

I donno, Joe... He may have flamed out just before he augered in ! 

Charles


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 11, 2008)

One more...


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 11, 2008)

one more


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## drgondog (Apr 11, 2008)

bf109 Emil said:


> I will have to have someone translate Gallands German Biography again, but will pass on...
> 
> a video of 262 that has a surprise to B17 crew...nice if never viewed before
> 
> ...




The english version of his autobiography (by Constable/Toliver) read fine. What point are you trying to make with that utube link.. you know the actual combat footage was dominantly Fw 190 and the others maybe 109 or 110 - all slow closing speeds relative to a 262??

You know 262s went down at altitude for one of three reasons - mechanical malfunction to an egine rendering it vulnerable to everything, brain malfunction by pilot deciding to engage in the horizonta, and finally a victim of great shooting?

If I am standing still and you fly past me at 100MPH, and I can boot a little rudder and pull deflection on you going away - how long do you suppose you are in range of 6x50 or 8x50 or 4x20mm? 

Or you are closing from below and behind, don't see me, and I pull a diving pursuit curve to close from your 3 to 5 o'clock and pull deflection, you suppose you might be vulnerable for maybe 3 to 4 seconds?


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## Erich (Apr 11, 2008)

man I am repeating myslef again, look JV 44 was not an elite group there were cadre from all the fighter and bomber squadrons some not even with medals on theri chests, also JV 44 did not carry R4M's as you say all the time, this was also the case for I. and III./JG 7 who usually carried them as they put them first into practice on 18 March 1945. sorry but after JG 26 Galland was confined as inspector of day fighters on the ground until he got back in the cockpit of a 262 in JV 44, no time in the air so not sure where you get he shadowed US bomber formations in a 110 or 210 as he would be meat to US escorts, that's wrong

you need to get some 262 resources in your library, sorry bud I've been doing this way too long and a book of mine is preparation at the moment if you couldn't tell by this thread, just on all of this which will be much more indepth than Mr. Hess's with many first person accts


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## drgondog (Apr 11, 2008)

couple more histories written by winners


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 12, 2008)

BOOM HEADSHOT!


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## parsifal (Apr 12, 2008)

CW CAG ops off Korea record only one, possibly two Migs lost to the Furies

"FAA pilot Lieutenant Peter "Hoagy" Carmichael Royal Navy downed a MiG-15 jet fighter in air-to-air combat, making the Sea Fury one of the few prop-driven fighter aircraft to shoot down a jet-powered fighter."

There is also an unsubstantiated claim that a second Mig was shot down that day.

Having said that the Furies and the Fireflies being operated by the CW TG were quite able to survive in Mig Alley. This drew some praise from the US commander afloat as I understand it.


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## Soren (Jul 15, 2008)

drgondog said:


> You know 262s went down at altitude for one of three reasons - mechanical malfunction to an egine rendering it vulnerable to everything, brain malfunction by pilot deciding to engage in the horizonta, and finally a victim of great shooting?



I agree with your first and final point, but trying to engage in the horizontal was by no means a brain malfunction if the pilot knew what he was doing. However as it was the pilots were mostly rookies with little flying time, and they undoubtedly (And this has been commented on by both Allied Axis pilots) let the speed drop too low and didn't assess the situation properly.

Experienced Me-262 pilots could engage in the horizontal with supreme confidence as they knew what speed not to drop below, both in terms of turning capability and acceleration. Above ~450 - 470 km/h the Me-262 accelerated faster than any prop job and could turn just as well. Below 450 km/h the Me-262 started to loose its acceleration advantage and the prop jobs could keep on their turns a lot better, no contest.

Because of its high speed the Me-262 was a stressful a/c to fly, very high G's being pulled a lot more frequently than in the prop jobs, and the controls were light and effective right up to maximum allowed speed, which was one of its advantages over the prop jobs. It was definitely no plane for a rookie.

Now as Erich pointed out the Me-262 wasn't uncatchable, esp. not when attacking the bombers or when coming around after an attack run to have another go, as they usually were running in cruise mode at that point.


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## drgondog (Jul 15, 2008)

Soren said:


> I agree with your first and final point, but trying to engage in the horizontal was by no means a brain malfunction if the pilot knew what he was doing. However as it was the pilots were mostly rookies with little flying time, and they undoubtedly (And this has been commented on by both Allied Axis pilots) let the speed drop too low and didn't assess the situation properly.
> 
> Experienced Me-262 pilots could engage in the horizontal with supreme confidence as they knew what speed not to drop below, both in terms of turning capability and acceleration. Above ~450 - 470 km/h the Me-262 accelerated faster than any prop job and could turn just as well. Below 450 km/h the Me-262 started to loose its acceleration advantage and the prop jobs could keep on their turns a lot better, no contest.
> 
> ...



Soren - I am now through the histories of the 352, 357 and 355FG awards on 262's. I am sorry but two things happened when a 262 started the turn 100mph faster and turned in the horizontal with a Mustang. a.) it lost a lost of energy, and b.) the Mustang could cut the circle and get a nice deflection 'head shot'.

The 262's best strategy was to fight in the vertical.

So far, for the distribution of the combined 339FG, 352FG, 355FG and 357 FG jet awards, there were 44 Me 262 Awards. Of those (~40% of all 8th AF awards) that I have looked at in the last day -

25% (12)were hit at altitude and resulted in destruction or bail out
50% (22)were hit at altitude, chased and destroyed while attempting to reach protection of airfield flak and air cover but not in landing pattern.
25% (12) were destroyed during take off or landing.

None of this 44 were "I hit him and last saw him smoking going into a cloud' These were a/c seen to blow up or pilot seen leaving a/c

From the encounter reports most of the initial hits at altitude were deflection shots in the horizontal or a prolonged and unseen diving approach, resulting in a perceived major loss of power, rendering the Me 262 unable to evade by speed or performance - that sums up about 3/4 of the 44 I looked at.

It was not a good move to stay and play without using the inherent speed advantage to gain altitude and energy.


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## Erich (Jul 15, 2008)

Bill

your observations look spot on for all the 8th AF fg pilots that shot down jets and the Me 163.

speaking of the latter I am in email conversation with the daughter of a former pilot of the 364th fg that shot down the only Me 163 claimed by the group. Hopeful more on this later as it proceeds.

E `


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## drgondog (Jul 16, 2008)

Erich said:


> Bill
> 
> your observations look spot on for all the 8th AF fg pilots that shot down jets and the Me 163.
> 
> ...



I imagine that as long as you could keep a 163 in sight, he was in deep yogurt when he became a glider. I do know the 355th didn't get one in the air and only saw a few.


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## Erich (Jul 16, 2008)

very very few shot down in actual combat, poor SOB's in JG 400 usually got vaporized or melted in those things on take-off and terrible landings if the fuels were not expended. thinking about landing one of those ricketie things creeps me out

really was a worthless piece of air garbage, the guys should of been equipped with the Me 262A-1a, and some of JG 400 pilots did transfer over to JG 7 in spring of 45.

As you say Bill and I have as well several times, the 262 was not great on it's turn radius the 8th AF Stang pilots could turn into them and let them have it with .50's.


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## drgondog (Jul 16, 2008)

Erich said:


> very very few shot down in actual combat, poor SOB's in JG 400 usually got vaporized or melted in those things on take-off and terrible landings if the fuels were not expended. thinking about landing one of those ricketie things creeps me out
> 
> really was a worthless piece of air garbage, the guys should of been equipped with the Me 262A-1a, and some of JG 400 pilots did transfer over to JG 7 in spring of 45.
> 
> As you say Bill and I have as well several times, the 262 was not great on it's turn radius the 8th AF Stang pilots could turn into them and let them have it with .50's.



it is about like an A-7 against a MiG 21.. do anything you want against the A-7 but go horizontal with it. 

My father used to wax my ass on the simulator at LTV.. didn't matter which airplane but I got closer when I stayed on the outside and made high low off angle passes then climbed back to retreat and find advantage with the MiG 21. I Never beat him flying the A-7 against his 21.

51 has to be pretty comparable in the match up versus the 262.

How are you recovering and when do you want to come over for best Texas steak in Oregon? The only hazard in the experience is two size 21 Wolfie heads drooling 2" from the plate..


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## Erich (Jul 16, 2008)

dang that steak sounds great Bill...it will be in August and I will contact you, am going overseas next week through first part of August. moving slow and it is taking it's time for healing up.........really nuts. cannot sit long enough behind the PC to type as I get stiff real fast, and as to those Wolfs of yours put them out on the patio while we eat  

E ~ and the only thing going for a 262 over the Stang is it's flat out speed


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## drgondog (Jul 16, 2008)

Erich said:


> dang that steak sounds great Bill...it will be in August and I will contact you, am going overseas next week through first part of August. moving slow and it is taking it's time for healing up.........really nuts. cannot sit long enough behind the PC to type as I get stiff real fast, and as to those Wolfs of yours put them out on the patio while we eat
> 
> E ~ and the only thing going for a 262 over the Stang is it's flat out speed



Lol - I eat at Their will - but I'll work on a deal.


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## lesofprimus (Jul 17, 2008)

U guys crack me up.... Glad to see ur offering ALL of our members here the best Texas Steak in Oregon Bill...

Very nice and polite of u...


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## drgondog (Jul 17, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> U guys crack me up.... Glad to see ur offering ALL of our members here the best Texas Steak in Oregon Bill...
> 
> Very nice and polite of u...



Normally Squids need not apply - but All of you are welcome. 

However if you show up at the same time I'll have to switch to smoked ribs and Brisket (Actually I could smoke a rolled Raost).

As it stands E will have to putter about 36 miles to the ranch, how about the rest of you knuckleheads?


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## Soren (Jul 17, 2008)

Erich said:


> E ~ and the only thing going for a 262 over the Stang is it's flat out speed



No it climbed faster and retained speed in tight turns much better, something which is made quite clear by both Allied German pilots who flew it.

*From Me-262 A-1 Pilot's Handbook, put together by US UK test pilots:*
_"(2) The airplane holds its speed in tight turns much longer than conventional types."_

*Luftwaffe test pilot, Hans fey:*
_"The Me-262 will turn much better at high than at low speeds, and due to its clean design, will keep its speed in tight turns much longer than the conventional type aircraft"_

And according to flight tests the max climb rate at SL was 19.5 m/s (3,838 ft/min) at ~7,000 kg, the normal take off weight was 6,400 kg and empty weight was 3,900 kg;
*Me-262 A-1a Lesitung charts:*








> Soren - I am now through the histories of the 352, 357 and 355FG awards on 262's. I am sorry but two things happened when a 262 started the turn 100mph faster and turned in the horizontal with a Mustang. a.) it lost a lost of energy, and b.) the Mustang could cut the circle and get a nice deflection 'head shot'.



Bill as you have just demonstrated it depends entirely on the situation, and you don't know the story of the Allied fighter pilots shot down by the Me-262.

It is highly likely a P-51 seeing a Me-262 in his tail took the fight to the horizontal as-well only to be cut off in the turn and recieve a stream of 30mm HE projectile to his cockpit. Its not hard to cut off a turn and get a deflection shot, even against a better turning a/c, and esp. not if you have fast and flat firing guns.

In short it was by no means a mistake for a Me-262 pilot to engage in the horizontal with a Mustang as long as he knew what he was doing and didn't let speed drop too low. He had to keep the speed up, which he could do by dropping his nose down.

We know that the Me-262 was considerably faster, climbed faster and maintains speed in tight turns considerably better than any piston engined fighter. And we know the approx. Clmax of the wing as-well, so we know that above 450 km/h a Me-262 will black out the average pilot in its tighest turn. Now on top of this we know the Me-262 mostly flew at speeds higher than 600 km/h, at which speed a whole lot of G's could be pulled.

The absolute no no in any of the early jets was however getting into a low speed turning fight as acceleration was very sluggish at slow speeds.

I'm sure you both agree.


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## Erich (Jul 17, 2008)

Soren thank you for the critique and graph but the vets that I have interviewed in several different ways that encountered and watched their buddies bounce 262's the climb did nothing and the fast turns as you say (yes the jets were faster than the Stang) did not alleviate the problem because of speed that the Mustang pilots could turn inside of it and rake the fuselage of the jet and this happened many times, if not the destruction of the LW craft at least damaged it severely enough. obviously and this was case enough times if the jet pilot could get a forward motion observe the pursuing Mustangs then he could open it up and the jet would be gone, have the Mustang interviews to prove that as well, even the Ar 234 did this.

Bill tell the Wolves to sit in the basement locked up while we eat upstairs and get out of the 100F plus heat


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## Soren (Jul 17, 2008)

Erich I really don't think we disagree here, any of us, we're just expressing ourselves differently and misunderstand each other, cause again it all depends on the situation, such as: 
*a)* Which a/c is the pursuer ? 
*b)* Is the prey aware that is being pursued ? 
*c)* How well trained was the pilots of either a/c ? 

It all adds up to how it happened.

The point is that if a Me-262 came up behind a P-51 and the P-51 pilot saw it and started to turn he would, just like a Me-262 pilot doing the same, expose his entire a/c to a nice deflection shot. And just like You Bill have mentioned, that is how the Me-262's in turn fights were shot down, in their initial turn which was cut short by a deflection shot. I'm quite sure a lot of the P-51's shot down by the Me-262 it was the same deal, they saw it, tried to evade by turning but cut off and blasted out of the sky.


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## drgondog (Jul 17, 2008)

Soren said:


> No it climbed faster and retained speed in tight turns much better, something which is made quite clear by both Allied German pilots who flew it.
> 
> *From Me-262 A-1 Pilot's Handbook, put together by US UK test pilots:*
> _"(2) The airplane holds its speed in tight turns much longer than conventional types."_
> ...



Soren - I am still not clear on your thesis? Are you saying that an Me 262, because of it's Thrust Available over Thrust Required and it's aerodynamic qualities will be able to turn with a tighter radius than either the 51 or the Spit? 

I know you said that a 262 pilot can fight in the horizontal with those two 'if the pilot knows what he is doing' but there is a difference between a sharp bank at high speed to get deflection on a slower ship turning much tighter, and missing that shot and entering into a chase in the horizontal. A lot of Zero's scored against USN and USAAF ships that were a lot faster than the zero and attempted the same manuever...ditto a Brewster Buffalo against a 109.

Erich - no basement but we have fenced off front yard, courtyard, and side pasture as designated 'no drool' zones. We could also designate them as "Squid AOO's" and feed all of them over the fences.

Erich and I are in complete agreement that the latter move would not be a clever move on the part of the pursuing Me 262.


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## Soren (Jul 17, 2008)

What I'm saying Bill is not that the Me-262 turns a tighter radius than the Mustang, cause it doesn't, only that at and above 450 km/h the Me-262 can maintain a higher turn rate. And at 450 km/h and above both a/c can black out the pilot in a max performance turn. Below 450 km/h the Mustang can maintain a higher turn rate than the Me-262.

So what I'm saying is taking the fight to the horizontal against a P-51 wouldn't be a mistake by the Me-262 pilot, as long as he didn't stay there amd get into a prolonged turn fight where speed would drop below 450 km/h rather quickly. A Me-262 with a P-51 on its tail closing fast would be best off making a high G turn, straighten up and dive away, gain speed and distance, climb and reverse on the Mustang. I never meant that it should stay and fight purely in the horizontal, against a prop fighter that's a death sentence for any of the early jets.


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## drgondog (Jul 17, 2008)

Soren said:


> Erich I really don't think we disagree here, any of us, we're just expressing ourselves differently and misunderstand each other, cause again it all depends on the situation, such as:
> *a)* Which a/c is the pursuer ?
> *b)* Is the prey aware that is being pursued ?
> *c)* How well trained was the pilots of either a/c ?
> ...



I agree.. 

on another note I have not seen evidence of a 'lot of P-51s shot down' by Me 262s. I wonder where we need to look to get some documentation of even claims?

I know the 357FG lost one per a MACR, the 355th did not lose any, I'm still researching the 78th and 339th, and have a long way to go to understand the actual described combat with the 262s. So far ~ 75 % engaged at high altitude to medium altitude, and ~ 25% while attempting to land or just after takeoff at low altitude.

Food for thought; 390 8th AF FC fighters were lost to all causes (air, flak, Ops, accident, unknown) from Jan1 1945 through the end of the war. more than 240 were lost to flak.

I'm still cross checking but it seems that of the 390 lost in the last 4 months, 36 were air to air and 6 more 'Unknown - last seen..". Of the 36 "known air", 5 were Me 262s, 16 were Me 109s and 15 were Fw 190s.

If you speculate that all six of the Unknown were a.) all air to air and b.) and all by Me 262s that leaves 11 Mustangs shot down by an Me 262.

That of course does not account for RAF Mustangs, nor MTO fighters in the Southern Germany/Austria areas.


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## drgondog (Jul 17, 2008)

Soren said:


> What I'm saying Bill is not that the Me-262 turns a tighter radius than the Mustang, cause it doesn't, only that at and above 450 km/h the Me-262 can maintain a higher turn rate. And at 450 km/h and above both a/c can black out the pilot in a max performance turn. Below 450 km/h the Mustang can maintain a higher turn rate than the Me-262.
> 
> So what I'm saying is taking the fight to the horizontal against a P-51 wouldn't be a mistake by the Me-262 pilot, as long as he didn't stay there amd get into a prolonged turn fight where speed would drop below 450 km/h rather quickly. A Me-262 with a P-51 on its tail closing fast would be best off making a high G turn, straighten up and dive away, gain speed and distance, climb and reverse on the Mustang. I never meant that it should stay and fight purely in the horizontal, against a prop fighter that's a death sentence for any of the early jets.



I would say we are all in complete agreement


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## Becca (Jul 17, 2008)

I'm here for the brisket and the Wolfies.


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## lesofprimus (Jul 17, 2008)

Bill, if u aint cooking up steaks, I aint comin.... I'd probably have a better time with the Wolfies than u 2 old men anyways....

Less slobber from the dogs....


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## Erich (Jul 17, 2008)

nah I'll let Bill put the nbon-Oregonians out in the trees with the Poison Oak begging to be let free, the wolfs can take care of themselves.

ya know if someone would get the bright idea and put a you tube vid together covering the tactics of the STang/Me 262, turns, dives, banks, deception, zoom and climb or fall off that would be quite enlightening and think all would generally learn from this...........

another point I had been thinking about when this thread was started was just as Bill mentions: listing the claims of P-51's by the Nowotny band, JG 7 and the KG's acting like under-trained fighter units/ Bill is correct though not very many that is fact, the jets did come in from a height advnatage and it was literally attack with a sharp suddeness and zoom away as fast as they could travel.

I'll start digging but want to post a couple of pics of a Me 163 killer pretty soon.

E ~


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## Erich (Jul 17, 2008)

this little section will be in 2-3 parts. been in contact with the daughter of W.E. formerly of the 364th fg, whom with another pilot shot down the only Me 163 in the fighter group on October 7, 1944. At 12.30 hrs, Flight leader Taylor dove from a couple thousand feet on an Me 163 that had just gone through a box of B-17's. Taylor pursued in his dive too fast and overshot the rocket fighter and ordered W.E. to pursue, which he did. He closed the gap and peppered the tiny fighter till it nosed over and flew down damaged and crash-landed on a grass field. W.E. and another 364th fg pilot winged-over and came in behind the rocket/fighter as the pilot bailed out and ran for cover, strafing the LW craft till it was destroyed.

W.E.'s daughter has her fathers gun cam film. Here is a shot (in behind) the 163 of JG 400 which were quite active on the October 44 date against B-17's.


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## Soren (Jul 17, 2008)

drgondog said:


> I would say we are all in complete agreement



Roger that.


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## Erich (Jul 17, 2008)

W.E.'s rocket killer ~


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## drgondog (Jul 17, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> Bill, if u aint cooking up steaks, I aint comin.... I'd probably have a better time with the Wolfies than u 2 old men anyways....
> 
> Less slobber from the dogs....



I'll set one aside for you but my Ribs and Brisket are hard to beat. I have my own rub, I get the Brisket cut specially and it is a six plus hour process over Mesquite for the ribs and maybe 10-12 for the Brisket..

As to having a good time, even at 6-4, if you don't watch 'em like a hawk, they'll sneak up and give you a french kiss while you're standing up. You can make your own judgement about slobber after that experience.

They are either sleeping (most of the time), chasing (some of the time) each other, or eating (once a day for theirs - whenever possible to sneak up on ours)

No kidding, you still have a standing invitation to slither up here.

I have two that love to stand on hind legs and it's not good for them..

Nice pics E


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## lesofprimus (Jul 17, 2008)

I LOVE that Damn Yankee shot Erich....


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## drgondog (Jul 17, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> I LOVE that Damn Yankee shot Erich....



I HATE the mis spellin' of this revered curse!


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## lesofprimus (Jul 17, 2008)

Hehe....


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## Soren (Jul 19, 2008)

Yeah, clever fellas those pilots were


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## Erich (Jul 21, 2008)

another still-view from his gun camera of the Me 163


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## Erich (Dec 8, 2008)

well I just got this in the mail and can say if you have nothing on JG 7 at the prwsent would advise picking this little soft back up for under 20.00 US

JG 7 Nowotny by Robert Forsyth, Osprey Elite series # 29. some new pics added into the text. Robert is famous for his books on Gallands JV 44 in the past. 128 pages, profiles, many accounts. Friend Neil Page did the comments on amazon.com for anyone interested in a critque of the book.

I recommend the title and I'm stinking picky ...........  

E ~


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## lesofprimus (Dec 8, 2008)

But but but, its an OSPREY book.............


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## Erich (Dec 9, 2008)

it will surprise you Les, good deal for the monies and I am NO proponent for Osprey in the slightest regard, in fact most of their WW 2 aviation titles I would pass on.

E `


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## lesofprimus (Dec 9, 2008)

I am of the same mindset Erich, Ive found so many innacuracies in the Osprey collection that I dont bother with them except for pictures, and a good portion of those are incorrectly notated....

That being said, I'll take ur word on this one....


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## TheMustangRider (Dec 22, 2008)

from the American Warbirds both the P-51 Mustang and The P-47 Thunderbolt got Me 262 Kills.


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## Erich (Dec 22, 2008)

it is rather obvious by my postings the Stangs and Jugs shot down 262's ...... suggest you go through the other 34 pages


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## drgondog (Dec 22, 2008)

Erich said:


> it is rather obvious by my postings the Stangs and Jugs shot down 262's ...... suggest you go through the other 34 pages



chuckle


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## TheMustangRider (Dec 22, 2008)

Erich said:


> it is rather obvious by my postings the Stangs and Jugs shot down 262's ...... suggest you go through the other 34 pages


I'm new in this forum Erich, I'll check out all the pages. thanks


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## Njaco (Dec 23, 2008)

Thanks for the info on that book, Erich. Since joining here I've stayed away from Osprey but if this book is as you say, I know what to do with my Xmas money! Some of those other books are alittle hefty $$$ - need something to whet my appettite while I save the ducats for those books.


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## Njaco (Dec 29, 2008)

Just ordered this book along with Forsyth's "JV 44" and "To Win The Winter Sky". Thanks Erich!


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## Erich (Dec 29, 2008)

Njaco why did you pick up the last title ? It is a compilation of several titles including W. Girbigs 6 mnths to Oblivion which is full of errors


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## Njaco (Dec 30, 2008)

The one by Danny Parker? I read acouple bits online and it seemed pretty concise.

I get the feeling I just did a boo-boo.


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## Erich (Dec 30, 2008)

well to be truthful it is the only book out there so you will get a good read

Ive yet to really pic up a good book covering equally both sides in the winter 44-45 air war in any depth.


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## Njaco (Dec 30, 2008)

Amazon.com is amazing! I only ordered these on Sun and bright this morning they were on my step. Erich thanks for the heads up on Forsyth's books. Just completed reading the JG 7 and now devouring the others. The Parker book was interesting what I read online and didn't appear to be filled with alot of junk. I quickly read the intro, Prologue and first chapter and it doesn't seem bad. But it will be with a jaundiced eye as I go through it.

The other two are great especially the pics!


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## bobbysocks (Mar 21, 2010)

my father's 5th victory was a 262 over Munich. he was witht he 357th FG 364th SQ. it was a combination of the german pilot thinking he was in the clear and my dad making a great/lucky shot. here's info on the 357th and jets.
theyoxfordboysandtheme262

my apologies if this is redunant...i have tried to read through the thread but it keeps giving me a server busy message.

this is a picture my sister painted of the kill.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 21, 2010)

Very Cool!


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## Erich (Mar 21, 2010)

very sad your Father is no longer with us, he is one I wanted to specifically interview about this very mission Bobby.

thanks for the brief sharing, hopeful you will be able to read more of the many postings on this thread there is much here from a personal note from several I have had fortune to interview.

of special note the 357th fg of the 8th AF was the most noted Me 262 killer group in the US fighter arsenal.

dang wish time would permit I need to update and get busy again with where I left off........... apoligies all, in good time


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## bobbysocks (Mar 21, 2010)

Erich said:


> January 14, 1945
> 
> US 357th fg pounced on a number of Fw 190's attacking US heavy bombers and the 357th fg came out on top claiming some 56 German fighters this date. JG 7 sent their Me 262's to attack the Stangs instead of the bombers which in itself was fool-hardy.....first hand info states 1 Me 262 slid in behind several STangs of the 357th fg and sat there with the flight and then took off ahead. pretty weird as one pilot Dale Karger had him in his sights when he got behind but had his gun switch turned off and the Me 262 sped off.
> Stangs of the 353rd caught a couple of jets at 10,000 feet heading in a northerly fashion, the Stang pilot Lt. B.J. Murray shot down Unteroffizier Detjens who bailed out, Detjens by the way is still alive....anaother 9./JG 7 pilot was shot down and killed as two-three Stangs ganged up from behind and drilled the jet. Feldwebel Heinrich Wurm fell to his death. Two othere jets damaged by the group and a Jug from the 56th fg also damaged anoather jet of JG 7. One jet of III./JG 7 was lost in a crash with the pilot killed and other in red 14 was lost to US action the pilot suriving the incident near Neuruppin.
> RAF Spits encountered jets as well and Capt. Bolsted of the 332nd caught a II./KG 51 jet landing at Rheine and shot it down, the pilot not surviving. Another I. gruppe jet of KG 51 lost it's pilot due to Allied AA guns near Detweiler.



Erich...thats my dad, Dale E karger! and that is funny cos i remember him telling this story as well. when flying in formation you mainly watch the plane you are taking your queue from . my dad was flying someone's wing that day and just happened to glance to his right...saw a plane and looked back. then it hit him...this 262 is flying formation WITH them! he was so befuddled all he could do was yell, "you have a jet job on your ass!! ..haha he didnt say who so i am sure everyone practacally broke their necks looking back. when the 262 pilot saw my dad look at him he pulled up and kicked it in the ass. my dad broke off after him and hit the trigger....NOTHING.he hit it again...nothing. he finally remembered he did not turn on his gun heaters ( which was normal practice in formation as to not accidently shoot one of your own by accicent). by that time the 262 was out of range. my dad tried to get back with the group but ended up hedge hopping it back home. i did not know there was an actual record of this incident...i would love to know your source as i am compiling info and stories of my father.


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## mikewint (Apr 28, 2010)

I seem to recall that two MIGs were shot down in VN by Douglas Skyraiders


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## R Leonard (Apr 29, 2010)

Spads vs Migs - - - see post #18


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## mikewint (Apr 29, 2010)

thanks, leonard, i tried to read all of the posts but missed that one. i absolutely loved those skyraiders along with the hueys and once or twice good old spookey. saved our collective butts more than once. of course f-4s coming in about 20ft off the deck were beyond impressive.


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## icepac (Jan 8, 2011)

I spy a mig silhouette on a skyraider.






The long loiter time of the skyraider explained.






577 was also on the toilet mission and took gun camera film of the drop which consisted of a dot leaving 572 which quickly grew in size on a collision course with 577 and then sky.

Someone still has that film but not sure if it is viewable or restorable.


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## Rocketeer (Nov 29, 2011)

Incidentally, Willard Erfkamp was flying the Mustang I am rebuilding when they shared in the destruction of this Me163! 


Erich said:


> back earlier in the thread,
> 
> October 7, 1944 364th fg pilot Lt. Elmer Taylor takes R. Zimmermanns Me 163 out to lunch, the rocket gizmo crash lands and pilots Farrel and W. Erfkamp blast it to pieces


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## nuuumannn (Nov 29, 2011)

The _actual_ Mustang? That's pretty awesome! What condition is she in?


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## Antiprodigy (Jan 25, 2020)

Sunday, April 20, 2008 DICK CASE 
*POST-STANDARD COLUMNIST *

Charlie Greiner said his pal John Usiatynski had a good story to tell. He did. 
Just then we're sitting in Usee Motors, the car repair shop on the main drag in East Syracuse John's had more than 50 years. His nephew, Ray Usiatynski, does most of the repairs these days. John keeps the books. He's 85. 
*Sixty-three years ago this month, John was a lieutenant in the Army Air Forces, helping to fight World War II in Europe. He was a pilot, flying his P-47 on a bombing mission above a small town in Germany. *

*His plane - marked "Petite Monique" for a girlfriend - was attacked by German fighters. One he hit. The craft, a Messerschmidt, hit the ground and exploded. 
"I claim one Me 262 destroyed in air," he wrote in an encounter report. 
Last year, German aircraft historians doing research on missing World War II pilots found the lost fighter plane, buried about 15 feet in the ground in a farm field in Bavaria, Germany. Remains of the German flier were still in the plane. *
John's recounting for us - Charlie, nephew Ray and other listeners - how surprised he was, last July, to get the news of the discovery. He was connected to the German researchers by Mickey Russell, an historian with the U.S. Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell-Gunter Air Force Base, Ala. 
"Imagine that," John's saying. "Sixty-two years ago . . ." 
And the memories come spinning back . . . 
He was a farmer's son back then, a graduate of East Syracuse High School who was drafted into the Army in 1943. He had never flown an airplane. He really isn't sure if he had ever been in one. 
"They had me take a test," John explains. "I guess I scored well, above average." The test put him into a military pilot's program. A year of training later, he was traveling across the Atlantic Ocean on the Queen Mary - "with a load of P-47 aircraft" - and into the war in Europe. 
"We traveled from England to France in a boat that fell apart when we hit the shore," he says with a laugh. 
He flew out of a base at Toul/Ochey, France, in the 367th Fighter Squadron of the Tactical Air Command. His plane - he flew alone - carried two 500-pound bombs. Before his last one, in June 1945, the young pilot from East Syracuse flew 105 missions, "most of them pretty routine," according to John. 
The Army Air Forces pounded Germany in those last months of the war. "Sometimes," John recalls, "we'd go out twice in the same day." 
April 8, 1945, he flew above Germany on an airdrome strafing mission, according to his report. He watched German planes go after the leader of the squadron, then his plane. 
This was the way he described the dogfight: 
"I cleared myself and continued after him. We both were diving at 50 degrees. I gave him another burst at 600 yards and observed strikes on his tail section. 
"A few seconds later, he hit the ground and exploded . . ." 
John shrugs, telling the story more than 60 years later. "It was just another mission. No big deal," he says. 
Until last year, when he was contacted - via e-mail and telephone - by the German historians. They told him they had dug the plane he hit out of the ground - it was scrap, in many pieces - along with the bones of the pilot. 
That was when John found out the pilot had a name: Wolfgang Severin. Wolfgang was a corporal in the German Air Force. He was 32 years old. 
Later John would receive several pictures of Wolfgang, and an invitation to attend his funeral, which was held last September, near his hometown in Germany. The remains were placed in a family plot in the village cemetery. 
"I couldn't go to the funeral," John explains. "But I did send a bouquet of flowers and a note, which had my condolences to his family." Wolfgang had a son. 
What did he say in the note? John can't remember the exact words but it 
was along the lines that Wolfgang, like John, was serving his country. John said he was aiming at the plane, not the man. 
It was war. All of the regret is drained out of it by now. 
John came home to East Syracuse - there was no parade, as he recalls - and he and his brother Casmir opened the garage on Manlius Street where he sits today. Eventually, he received the Distinguished Flying Cross for taking down that plane. Also the Air Force Medal with 13 clusters. 
Before they deteriorated, he used to show his family the films - his own story of the war - that were recorded by the camera in the nose of "Petite Monique." 
John served on the East Syracuse school board and as commander of the VFW. He also was an officer of the Lions Club. He had two daughters and a son, who died. 
Mickey Russell, the military historian in Alabama, tells me it not unusual to find a lost aircraft these days. There are people who recover the old ships, rehabilitate them and "sell them for lots of money." Yes, finding the pilot's remains doesn't happen every day. 
John Usiatynski will verify that. For him, it was once in a lifetime. 

John Usiatynski shot down a plane in WWII.- Syracuse.com

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## Antiprodigy (Jan 25, 2020)



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