# pearl harbor



## NightHawk (Sep 8, 2004)

i dont know if you saw thet movie but it was totaly stupid.
1. p-40 fly as fast as zeros and the zero berly dose manuvers.
2.he-111's def guns dont shoot at the spitfires.
3.(not sure about this 1) a wing of a spitfire needed to be torn off the play if it was hit by 20 mm cannons of the bf-109 no ?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 8, 2004)

i saw the modern film and it sucks, the P-40s can out manouver the zero, 4 hits from a .50 cal machine gun took off a zero's wing, only one P-40 has fuel and ammo, 2 need fuel, one needs ammo, yet somehow 2 more get into the air within minutes and there's only one ground crew and that's only the stuff that i can remember...................


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## JCS (Sep 8, 2004)

The dogfights are the only thing I can remember from that peice of crap. That love story ruined the whole movie for me...


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## Maestro (Sep 8, 2004)

I saw the French-translated version of that movie, and concerning the He-111 VS. Spitfires, I think you're wrong. I don't know a lot about bombers (and may be it won't change anything), but if I remember well, it wasn't He-111s, but Do-17s. (At least that's what the pilots say in French. But may be they changed the name to make it fit with the lips.)

And I agree that the movie was a piece of crap, but dogfight scenes were great.


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## NightHawk (Sep 9, 2004)

yep the movie is good like my feet taset's like chips. and in the real thing some planes got in the air and a p-36 !!!!!!!!!! shot down 1 zero, but i cant remmber the pilots name. and in the middle of the first wave 12 b-17 non armed and flying on fumes came to the harbor. and only 28 planes where shot down the navel man shoot everything in the air the b-17 the american planes thet did took off everything. and ferther more the zero's flow nice and slow in the movie i could shot down 1 zero with a goddamn rock if it was like thet. welll i think i expresed my self now i go to chill off form all of this wraiting.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 9, 2004)

Ok I have officially come to the conclusion that this Nighthawk individual is a fraud.... There is no way that this person is for real and that his english///typing skills are this bad...

If u compare some of his posts, he mispells the same words differently, which means hes trying to type incorrectly... This is a joke and so is this kid....


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## NightHawk (Sep 9, 2004)

i know english like shit so i try to wrait down simple words not to complex.
so hay at least i try no ?


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## lesofprimus (Sep 9, 2004)

OK Mr. Haifa... We'll see if ur for real...

Where is the USO building in Haifa located????


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 9, 2004)

and now he gets our jokes, he never did before.............


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## NightHawk (Sep 9, 2004)

what is USO ? the complet word please. and its not simple to translate words from english to hebrew


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## Gemhorse (Sep 9, 2004)

It beats me why people and Hollywood seem to think Pearl Harbour has to be so glorified....If I were American, I'd be embarrassed to keep having it bought up...- Apart from showing the Japs how to successfully attack Pearl, back on 7th Feburuary 1932, whilst conducting naval exercises, [the high point of which illustrated the unique power of Aircraft-Carriers against Capital Battleships], the whole thing was orchestrated to bring the US into WWII...It cost the lives of a Dutch submarine crew that saw the Japanese Attack Force approaching Pearl, and were killed by British SOE to keep it quiet...- There was alot of political manoevreing going on during 1940-41 because of Japanese Expansionism in China and the Far East, and the American sanctions that were put on Japan, fairly piss'd the Japs off to the point that they attacked, figuring to disable the US Fleet in one stroke. - Well, the rest is history, but to glorify a defeat, in not one, but two movies!...- It was a disaster, 3000 killed, like a 9/11...a dirty sneak punch... It saddens me that America showed them how to do it 9 years before....and in the wake of 9/11, they are telling the world we're gonna do this, and do that...why not send them a written copy! - As much as I like America, it really does have a crisis with it's Intelligence Community, and it's News Media borders on treason with it's gushing on about every little thing..- no wonder it's National Security is in jeopardy....


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## JCS (Sep 9, 2004)

Even though it was a terrible movie at least it showed the kids of today what it is. I can't even believe how oblivious most people in my generation are to history. The other day in history class the teacher asked us some simple basic history questions like the years of WW1, WW2, The Great Depression etc.. You wouldnt believe some of the answers....some thought the depression was in the 60's, WW1 in the 40's and WW2 in the 60's.....so I say; let them make more movies on historic events even if they are glorifying things most people would rather not have brought up again and again...


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## lesofprimus (Sep 9, 2004)

It is the location of the United States Services Office, for Navy personnel to meet up and get information and/or help.... I have met many Israelis there and what not.. Where is it????


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## NightHawk (Sep 9, 2004)

hmm............ lets see................. well i have no idea how is it called in english so im afraid thet i cant tell u where it is.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 10, 2004)

Thought so....


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## NightHawk (Sep 10, 2004)

well yeah . you go ahad and translate it to hebrew. 
ha your very smart you should know hebrew ha ?


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## Gemhorse (Sep 10, 2004)

Hey, now that's a good point JCS, I hadn't looked at it that way...- I have to admit that some movies do achieve success in getting across the where's, why's and who's of historical conflicts...I have read so many times of the 'hail of bullets' in books, but in the movie, 'Saving Private Ryan', the landing on the beach was riveting in it's realism and a tribute to their Craftsmanship;... both of the soldiers who fought the action, but also the Film Crew that simulated and filmed it. - It has brought alot of praise from Veterans and Historians even though it was a story woven to the event, but it also brought a gathering global consciousness of the Sacrifice, in the lead up to the 60th Anniversary of the D-Day Landings earlier this year...A lot of Veterans made what was probably their last pilgrimage to Normandy, and other battlefields, over this year, being in their 80's and all... - Another movie example would be 'Memphis Belle', that illustrated a part of the Sacrifice it took to lead a Strategic Bombing Campaign that lead to eventual total Air Superiority and Final Victory...- We do owe a huge thanks to the Worldwide Warbird Aviation Movement whose labour of love keep these aircraft in an ongoing restorative program, that we all may benefit in seeing them, be that in museums, airshows, magazines and movies etc.....


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## Gemhorse (Sep 10, 2004)

Perhaps Nighthawk could tell us which famous Iraeli served in British Intelligence during WWII ?


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## NightHawk (Sep 10, 2004)

hmm ww2 ? israel ? thet dosent go together israel didnt exisit at ww2 so...
refrase your qustion. well i have to agmit i dont know but heres 1 for you. wich espionage agancy served the britsh in ww1 against the turks ? mr. i know everything


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## lesofprimus (Sep 10, 2004)

Youre too stupid to even understand the question.... 

Ive been to Haifa 3 times... Im asking u where a specific location is in Haifa, one which Im sure eveyone who lives in Haifa knows of... And u dont even understand the letters U.S.O.

Ask your mommy and daddy where it is... You freakin imposter...


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## NightHawk (Sep 10, 2004)

בסדר הומו מזדיין מאיפה אתה חושב שאני יודע את זה ? אל תחשוב שאתה כזה טוב בן-זונה !
is thet a good enough ? ho ofcurse its not your SO perfect you cant do no wrong. your the all knowing. and i am just a little bug and you are so maighty.


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## NightHawk (Sep 10, 2004)

and i see i am so welcomed. you nazi basterd. the internet will be a better place without people like your self !
you fuck's hate jews and israelis and DONT say u dont i can see thet you DO !!!!!


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## lesofprimus (Sep 10, 2004)

what a retard....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 10, 2004)

can we stop this please............


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## NightHawk (Sep 10, 2004)

hmm i can stop but this idiot over here wont stop.. so he must stop ASAP becuse i can go like this forever.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 10, 2004)

please make an effort, both of you.....................


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## lesofprimus (Sep 10, 2004)

notice how the grammer improved??? he's an imposter man... dual poster or somethin...


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## NightHawk (Sep 10, 2004)

מה קרא ? אתה מקנא ?הו שחכתי שאתה ילד בן 5 וכבר מתחיל לחשוב את עצמו גבר יש לך יכולת שכלית של ילד בן שנתיים הומו מסכן


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## lesofprimus (Sep 10, 2004)

all that is is a font type dude.. I could upload one for arabic if i wanted to and do the same thing.... Not impressive..

Tell me where the USO building is located in Haifa and ill belive what u say.....


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## Lightning Guy (Sep 10, 2004)

OK so a few other fauls with the Pearl Harbor Movie . . . Spitfires are clearly armed with 20mm weapons which none of the Spits during the BoB were. All of the P-40 stuff has been mentioned. The shots of modern naval ships are Pearl Harbor are pretty hard to get over. Along with the fact that the shots of Nagumo's task force were all shots of a modern American CVBG. And finally, the B-25s in the movies are B-25Js rather than the B-25Bs used by Dolittle (this is best illustrated in the strafing run they make against the Japanese infantry).


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## lesofprimus (Sep 10, 2004)

George Welch and Pearl Harbor... The truth.....

At exactly 7:55 on a beautiful Sunday morning the United States was suddenly plunged into the greatest conflict in the history of the world. We were not only unprepared for war, but our armed forces in the Pacific were caught completely by surprise. 

That same Sunday morning two young Army Air Corps lieutenants were just leaving an all-night party at Wheeler Field, Hawaii. They were George Welch and Ken Taylor of the 15th Pursuit Group. As they stood outside an army barracks watching the tropical dawn grow brighter, neither had any idea of the momentous event which was about to change their - lives. It was December 7, 1941. Welch was saying that instead of going to sleep, he wanted to drive back to their own base at nearby Haleiwa Field for a nice Sunday morning swim. 

At that moment, just ten miles south of Lieutenants Welch and Taylor, carrier-based dive bombers, torpedo planes and fighters of the Imperial Japanese Navy were beginning their carefully planned sneak attack on the great American naval base at Pearl Harbor, as well as its surrounding airfields. Most of our powerful Pacific Fleet was in training, and there were ninety-six United States warships anchored in and about this Pacific stronghold. War had been expected by our military leaders, but the general opinion was that the Japanese would open hostilities against the Dutch or British possessions in Asia thousands of miles farther west. 

As Welch and Taylor walked to their car to head back to their own base, they saw sixty-two new Curtiss P-40 "Tomahawks" parked wing tip to wing tip so they could be guarded "against sabotage." 

Suddenly the Japanese swooped down on Wheeler Field, which was a center for fighter operations in Hawaii. Dive bombers seemed to appear out of nowhere. Violent explosions upended the parked planes, and buildings began to burn. 

Welch ran for a telephone and called Haleiwa as bullets sprayed around him. 

"Get two P-40s ready!" he yelled. "It's not a gag--the Japs are here." 

The drive up to Haleiwa was a wild one. Japanese Zeros strafed Welch and Taylor three times. When the two fliers careened onto their field nine minutes later, their fighter planes were already armed and the propellers were turning over. Without waiting for orders they took off. 

As they climbed for altitude they ran into twelve Japanese Val dive bombers over the Marine air base at Ewa. Welch and Taylor began their attack immediately. on their first pass, machine guns blazing, each shot down a bomber. As Taylor zoomed up and over in his Tomahawk he saw an enemy bomber heading out to sea. He gave his P-40 full throttle and roared after it. Again his aim was good and the Val broke up before his eyes. In the meantime Welch's plane had been hit and he dived into a protective cloud bank. The damage didn't seem too serious so he flew out again--only to find himself on the tail of another Val . With only one gun now working he nevertheless managed to send the bomber flaming into the sea. 

Both pilots now vectored toward burning Wheeler Field for more ammunition and gas. Unfortunately the extra cartridge belts for the P-40s were in a hangar which was on fire. Two mechanics ran bravely into the dangerous inferno and returned with the ammunition. 

The Japanese were just beginning a second strafing of the field as Welch and Taylor hauled their P-40s into the air again. They headed directly into the enemy planes, all guns firing. This time Ken Taylor was hit in the arm, and then a Val closed in behind him. Welch kicked his rudder and the Tomahawk whipped around and blasted the Val , though his own plane had been hit once more. Taylor had to land, but George Welch shot down still another bomber near Ewa before he returned. 

Perhaps twenty American fighter planes managed to get into the air that morning--including five obsolete Republic P-35s. Most of them were shot down, but their bravery and initiative accounted for six victories in the one-sided aerial battle. 

A second Version...

The party and poker game had been pretty much the norm. It had begun shortly after 21:00 hours and continued going strong until the sky began getting brighter along the eastern horizon. Welch and fellow pilot, Ken Taylor crawled into their beds at the Wheeler BOQ expecting to sleep in on a duty free Sunday morning. Just two hours into their party induced slumber, an unfamiliar rumble roused them to their feet. Running to the window, Welch was horrified to see smoke rising from burning aircraft on the field. Gazing up at a passing plane he noted the big red ball on the wings and fuselage. Japanese! Wheeler was being bombed by Japanese aircraft!

Leaping into the same clothes he had worn the previous evening, George raced from his room just as Taylor burst out of his door. Welch and Taylor had flown their P-40B fighters over to the small airfield at Haleiwa as part of a plan to disperse the squadrons planes away from Wheeler. George grabbed the telephone in the duty office and called Haleiwa. Getting the Duty sergeant on the line, he told him to see that both fighters were fueled, armed and warmed up. He and Taylor were on their way. Running at full tilt, the two pilots piled into Taylors car. Racing for the base gate, they were strafed by a passing dive bomber. Once on the road to Haleiwa, Taylor drove at breakneck speeds, frequently pushing 100 mph, and covered the winding 16 miles of road in little more than 15 minutes. Sliding to a stop in a cloud of dust and gravel, both men raced to their P-40s, now warmed up and ready. Jumping into the cockpit, Welch listened as his crew chief said, "Lieutenant, we dont have any .50 caliber ammo here. All that youre gonna have is the .30s." "Ok" said Welch, as he got his harness buckled. The crew chief continued, "We got word that we should disperse the planes, sir." "The hell with that", said Welch, "get off." The crew chief slid off the back of the wing and George pushed up the throttle and taxied to the narrow airstrip. Ignoring the usual pre-takeoff check-list, George slowly fed in full power and roared off the grass with Ken Taylor two minutes or so behind him.

Retracting his landing gear, Welch reached down and grabbed the charging handles for the wing mounted .30 caliber machine guns. Climbing past 1,000 feet, he spotted a large formation of aircraft heading towards the Marine airfield at Ewa. With the throttle jammed full forward, Welch raced in after the Japanese. Lining up on a dive-bomber, he opened fire from very close range. Despite having a gun jam, his fire was dead accurate. The single engine, elliptical winged bomber exploded into flame and nosed straight over into the ground. Pulling off to make another run, Welch felt his fighter take hits from another bombes rear gunner. Climbing away from the Japanese, Welch felt out the P-40 and determined that there was no damage of consequence. Rolling out into a dive, George headed back for the enemy formation. He arrived in time to see Taylor flame one of the meatball emblazoned dive bombers. Zooming in after another of the bombers (later to receive the Allied designation of Val) apparently headed back to its carrier, Welch again closed to point-blank range and sent the plane tumbling into the sea. Taylor had latched on to another of the Vals and sent him crashing into the ground just in from the beach near Barbers Point. Just as suddenly as it began, the sky was empty of enemy aircraft.

Not far from Wheeler, both pilots headed in and set down on the devastated airfield to replenish their nearly exhausted ammunition supply. Fortunately, one of the fields fuel trucks had survived the attack. Welch and Taylor remained in their cockpits gulping water provided by their ground crews. Both aircraft were fully fueled and armed, including the two .50 caliber guns mounted above the engine. The armorers were unable to clear Georges jammed wing gun. No matter, another formation of Japanese aircraft were spotted heading in. Welch waved the ground crew away and started the big Allison engine. As he turned onto the runway he eased up the throttle and roared down the field. Taylor rolled onto the runway and proceeded to take off in the opposite direction. As Welch cleared the ground, he pulled up his landing gear in time to see a Japanese fighter strafing Taylor on his takeoff roll. Meanwhile, yet another of the enemy fighters strafed Welch as his P-40 raced down the runway. Rolling into a hard left turn, Welch felt the landing gear lock into their wells and went straight for the fighter (an A6M2 Zero) that had attacked Taylor. Overhauling the radial engine plane, he opened fire. His rounds exploded the Zeros fuel tank and it crashed in a ball of fire just beyond the runway. Welch then spotted a lone dive bomber headed for the safety of its carrier and took out after him at full power. It didnt take long for the P-40 to close within range. Under a whithering rain of machine gun bullets, Welchs fourth victim crashed into the sea. Having used most of his ammunition supply, it was time to return to Wheeler in order to rearm and top off the fuel tanks. After George taxied in and cut his engine he discovered that Taylor had been wounded by the marauding Zero that had worked him over on his takeoff run. Taylor had ignored the rifle caliber machinegun bullet that passed through his arm and went directly for the enemy. Taylor had managed to hit several other Japanese aircraft, but had not been able to see any of them crash, he was too busy for that. All he could do was claim two probables. Likewise, Taylor has stated that at least two other Japanese aircraft fell to Welch. However, like Taylors probables, wreckage was never discovered out at sea. Once again, the two pilots refueled, rearmed and took off on a third sortie. However, by this time the Japanese carriers were already steaming away from Pearl Harbor. There would be no more encounters that day. Much to Taylors credit, he allowed only first aid to be performed on his wound before taking off for the third time.

For their actions on the morning of December 7th, both Welch and Taylor were awarded the Distinguished Service Cross. Later, Welch was honored by President Roosevelt at a special White House ceremony. Yet, this award was certainly less than what was deserved. Hap Arnold was prepared to approve a recommendation for the Medal of Honor for Welch. However, it was squashed by a local commander who argued that Welch and Taylor had taken off without orders. Such was the stupefying mindset of the pre-war Air Corps. Consider that the Japanese lost just 29 aircraft* during the attack (plus four other "operational" losses). Now stop and look at what Welch and Taylor had accomplished. At least 6, and probably 10 of the total Japanese losses were the direct result of these two pilots. How could the Army accept the no orders argument? What were these men supposed to do? Sit and wait for some staff officer to issue orders? Enemy aircraft were attacking, killing sailors, soldiers and airmen. There was no way that they would wait on the ground for the Japanese to discover their P-40s and destroy them sitting useless on the parking ramp. They were at war, and they were determined to make the Japanese pay a price for their treachery, and they intended to do so immediately.


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## NightHawk (Sep 10, 2004)

lets see. welli dont know the street becuse iv been there only 3 times and the last time was 4\5 years ago. but if i remmber corrctly its in the end of the main street of "hadar"


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## GermansRGeniuses (Sep 11, 2004)

That's rather sad, I could find out the location if I tried via the internet.


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## NightHawk (Sep 11, 2004)

but thets not the point.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Sep 11, 2004)

See, it kind of is.

You claim to live in Haifa, although you don't know where a most likely important building is.

If I wanted to, I'd find it in a matter of minutes on the internet.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 11, 2004)

i don't live anywhere near london but i could tell you where many buildings are.................


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## lesofprimus (Sep 11, 2004)

I was trying to get him to point out a certain geographical location... Haifa is a very nice city, and has a unique lay of the land so to speak... The USO building is located somewhere specific..... Not the street name, but topographically....

If he dont know this, he aint from there... PERIOD.....


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## NightHawk (Sep 11, 2004)

welll at least i dont live at a SHITHOLE !


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## lesofprimus (Sep 11, 2004)

That made absoulutly zero sense..... What a moron.....


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## GermansRGeniuses (Sep 11, 2004)

Mississippi/New York (I'm confused at this point; please clear up where you live) is not a "SHITHOLE," you moron.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 11, 2004)

and i live in a very nice part of the world................


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## lesofprimus (Sep 11, 2004)

I'm from Long Island, living in Mississippi.... I own my own house too....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 12, 2004)

i'm to young to own my own house.................................


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## lesofprimus (Sep 12, 2004)

Someday u will... And ull realize just how much of a pain in the ass it is and wish you could be 17 again...... Thinking how u would do things differently..... Like all of us old farts do....


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## Lightning Guy (Sep 13, 2004)

I'm 23 and I wish I was a teen again. Of course I'm just now having to worry about work and bills, etc.


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## Gemhorse (Sep 13, 2004)

Nighthawk, I'll take a wild guess at your question and say the Russians.- I dunno why lesofprimus thinks you are not what you say you are; - the guys put ME through a few hoops from time to time...I'm not a 'know-all' but I read alot, and the question I asked you, is one that I thought every Israeli would probably know....here is a further clue, he was born in 1922 in Ireland and his father was a Rabbi....he is a famous and well-known [worldwide] jewish-Israeli....I figure you would have learned about him at school, it's a part of your country's history.....


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## Andrew (Sep 13, 2004)

> Spitfires are clearly armed with 20mm weapons which none of the Spits during the BoB were




During the Battle, 19 Squadron was issued with half a dozen cannon-armed Spitfires, designated Mk IB as opposed to the eight machine gun-armed Spitfire, the Mk IA.


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## NightHawk (Sep 13, 2004)

well if you been in haifa 3 times, you should know thet there are 2 main streets in downtown hadar,the first goes to the harbor. and the second takes you through all the shops. so........i will be surpired if you even ever opend a map of haifa. and the USO building is in the end of the main road thet takes to the harbor its on a geograficly low spot. not far from the docks.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 13, 2004)

earlier claimed you didn't know as you said you were on 4 an a half when you last went.........................


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## lesofprimus (Sep 13, 2004)

The USO is located at the top of the hill, overlooking Haifa, looking down to the coast, harbour and the docks..... Across from the USO was a bar that, till this day, served me the best Long Island Iced Tea I have ever had in my life....

And for your information, I walked up the road all the way from the harbour to the top of the hill twice... I got a tattoo from a Russian-Jew in a building that had bullet holes in it along the same said road... 

And another fact not known by many, is the Gondolas that run from the top of the hill to the coast....


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## GermansRGeniuses (Sep 13, 2004)

Gemhorse said:


> Nighthawk, I'll take a wild guess at your question and say the Russians.- I dunno why lesofprimus thinks you are not what you say you are; - the guys put ME through a few hoops from time to time...



You mean like when lanc though you were a girl?


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## NightHawk (Sep 14, 2004)

i am sure thet a smart humen like your self should know hebrew. so inlighten us with your hebrew .


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## lesofprimus (Sep 14, 2004)

Why the hell would I know hebrew u moron??? Only 13 year old Jewish kids on their bar mitzvah and people who live in Israel would know that....

It doesnt take smarts to speak another language retard, just practice...

Or, like urself, a hebrew font and translator....

And I notice that u have no replies to any of the above statements and proof that ur a fraud and an illiterate moron....


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## NightHawk (Sep 14, 2004)

OK lets cut this shit out you dont want to belive me thets fine i cant do nothing about thet. and becuse on the 16 of the month its the JEWISH new year. and i dont want to spend any more time on fighting with you.

i wish you all happy new year

i am going to stop fighting with you. you can say what ever you want, and i will just ignore it. so my prepusal is to start clean .


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## lesofprimus (Sep 14, 2004)

Why dont u ignore the whole site and just read and learn then, cause when u open ur mouth, youre shoving your whole leg in your mouth...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 14, 2004)

funny as this is, it's time to stop..................


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## lesofprimus (Sep 14, 2004)

U think so???

I dont think a 15 year old farmer can make that decision for a 38 year old... But thanks for the help...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 14, 2004)

> I dont think a 15 year old farmer can make that decision for a 38 year old



no, but the senior member of the site does................


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## lesofprimus (Sep 14, 2004)

Just cause u post alot dont mean squat dude....

Just that u post alot...


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## Gemhorse (Sep 14, 2004)

Yeah GrG, he sure got that wrong !...It was interesting though to have that lady coming onto this forum, not many chicks are into this sorta thing...Hell, I even got called a 'toff'!!! [ha, if only you knew!!!], only because the way I write may appear,... er, 'formal'... 
- Anyway, I'm curious why Nighthawk hasn't answered MY question, the answer to which would be of great interest to all...some real knowledge in fact. - Perhaps you could ask your parents first, being a young fella an' all, I'm sure they'd know. I'm not interested in getting into a bun-fight over it, or abusive, but this forum offers and exchanges alot of very useful knowledge for the benefit of all...so c'mon dude, 'share...'- it's no trick question or anything......there is no need for anyone here to become abusive to each other, we're ALL 'Students of Life Learning'...
- One thing I have in common with lesofprimus, is I'm also born in the 'Year of the Horse', although I'm older, but Horses get very tenacious when people become evasive..................
- Lastly, Andrew is quite correct about cannon-armed Spitfires - Awesome pic man.....


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## NightHawk (Sep 15, 2004)

lesofprimus have you been downtown hadar and the market ?


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## lesofprimus (Sep 15, 2004)

I do not know hadar... The name or the location...


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## NightHawk (Sep 15, 2004)

hadar is one of the older parts of the town the market is in hadar. the market is a great place its huge as big as 3\4 streets, you can find allmost anything there. and its so cheep.its packed with stores. its so great i love going there to there you didnt visit there.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 15, 2004)

I probably did visit it, but was unawares that it was called "hadar"... I do remember many places and areas where markets and shopping were very big...

Whats the name of the nuclear power facility just to the North of Haifa???


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## NightHawk (Sep 15, 2004)

its not a nuclear facility its an oil refainery. baty-zicoc(refainerys in hebrew)


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## lesofprimus (Sep 15, 2004)

Ummmm.. An oil refinery does not have the typical conical Nuclear outlet stack like all nuclear power plants have... I have pictures of it if I need to prove it to you, along with alot of other pics from Haifa and surrounding areas...

Heres another for you.... I've been to a place called Acco, or Acre, there in Israel... What do u know about it???


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## NightHawk (Sep 15, 2004)

well i dont know either. but it is a refainery.and i dont know anything about acco ecssept its very anciant.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 15, 2004)

Acco was great.. Ive been there 3 seperate times... Its truly amazing...

Its a Sea-side city that was walled in on all sides during the Crusades... The Crusaders sacked this place and killed most of its inhabitants.... Most of the place still stands, and u actually enter the town through the hole that the Crusaders breached in this HUGE freakin wall to gain entrance into the city....


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## NightHawk (Sep 16, 2004)

yeah i heard about thet.caisaria its not in haifa but its truely buteful aswell.


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## Gemhorse (Sep 24, 2004)

Well, I'm a little disappointed our Israeli friend from Haifa, 'Nighthawk', was unable to recognise the First President of the State of Israel, Chaim Hertzog. He went on to serve 3 terms and prior to all that, he was also Envoy to the UN, and a founder-member of the Mossad....


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## plan_D (Sep 28, 2004)

I don't if it's already been mentioned but those ships in Pearl Harbour were so obviously new. The radomes were modern and they stuck out like a saw thumb. 

The heights some of those were flying at was stupid. There's tree-top height which is dangerously low, but at low altitudes the plane gets 'sucked' to the ground. The height one of those Zero was flying, it would have chewed up its props. 

It was a poor film. Not as bad as this one I saw the other day (I can't remember the name) which had M60 tanks posing as German Panzers. M60s were Vietnam for Gods sake!


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## Lightning Guy (Sep 28, 2004)

Sounds like the Battle of the Bulge and I believe they were actually M48s but there is very little external difference between a M48 and a M60.


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## plan_D (Sep 28, 2004)

No it wasn't. I've seen the Battle of the Bulge, and this wasn't it.


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## NightHawk (Sep 28, 2004)

look you know much about israel thets fine. but i am not a native for starts. and i dont realy tend to read about the more peaceful times(if there are any). so lets change the subject. and i will not answer any more qustions about my countrys history ok ?


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## lesofprimus (Sep 28, 2004)

What a retard.... "I'm not a native" then "My country"....

Make up ur damn mind....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Sep 29, 2004)

> I've seen the Battle of the Bulge, and this wasn't it.



the film the battle of the bulge (being american) is so stupid, it makes the germans out to be stupid with their tanks, and there's even a couple of times a sherman takes out a tiger i think it was, with one hit.............


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## plan_D (Sep 29, 2004)

That's the movie where the Sherman crews say its like shooting them with tennis balls.


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## Gemhorse (Oct 3, 2004)

It may have been 'Chaim Herzog' actually, it's a while since I read his book....Anyway, whatever you say, 'Nighthawk dude'....you won't answer anymore questions about the country of ISRAEL.....


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## NightHawk (Oct 3, 2004)

well actualy the ratio between 1 panzerwafen type 6 t-55 tiger mark 4 am i currect in the name ? was 1 tiger mark 4=4 shermans


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## plan_D (Oct 3, 2004)

Wrong about the name as well as the ratio. The Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf E 'Tiger' ratio against the M4 Sherman was 3 Shermans destroyed to 1 Tiger. This is solely for the Normandy campaign.


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## NightHawk (Oct 3, 2004)

well i dont know about the name but i know thet the ratio was 4 shermans=1 tiger 
with king tiger it was 5 shermans=1 king tiger


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## plan_D (Oct 4, 2004)

I know you're wrong on the ratio as well. The Tiger had a much better ratio all round than 4:1. The 3:1 is solely for the Normandy campaign. It is not known how well the Tiger did overall. 

On the King Tiger, you've assumed that the King Tiger was better so you added a Sherman. The majority of King Tigers were lost to maintainence and lack of fuel. Again, there is no known ratio. 

However, one ratio that is known was for 5 Shermans destroyed on the Western Front, 9 T-34s were destroyed on the Eastern Front.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 4, 2004)

well in a 6 to 1 fight in favour of the shermans against the either a tiger or king tiger, i'd put my money on the tiger................


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## NightHawk (Oct 4, 2004)

well lets say thet in the open field a group of shermans see's a tiger not hiden not nothing. well in thet case 1 of the shermans would try to flank the tiger and come from the rear so in thet case 3 shermans=1 tiger mark 4. and lets say it is hidin so in thet case it can take out 3-4 shermans. michal wittman for example.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 4, 2004)

micheal wittman could travel the distance of an entire column and knock out each vehicle without being desdroyed, 3 shermans are nothing.............


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## NightHawk (Oct 4, 2004)

well in europ the sherman was for people with a death wish. but against the japanis it was much more succsesful.


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## plan_D (Oct 4, 2004)

The tactics of the Sherman columns was for four Shermans to travel in a diamond shape. As the Tiger opened fire from the bocages of Normandy, its position would be revealed. Most likely the first shot would destroy the first Sherman, as the two on the flanks moved forward the last went (as Nighthawk correctly stated) to try and flank the Tiger. 
At about 75 yards to the Tigers rear the Sherman could destroy it. This is a very clean cut situation, but this is how it was supposed to work. 3:1 Sherman:Tiger in Normandy is a recognised figure. 

However this is PURELY in the bocages of Normandy. In the rest of France, Germany and Holland armour battles were as anywhere else. And Tigers were not defensive positions, they were TANKS! Designed to move quickly on an operational move and take on other tanks. On top of that, the Tiger wasn't the main battle tank of the Wehrmacht. The Pz. kpfw. IV was, this was a match for the Sherman...as the Sherman was a match for it. 

The Sherman was not a tank for people with a death wish, it was a tank for ease of produce and ease of handling for conscripts. The tank was produced quickly, and its production run alone can put up with the best tanks of the war. 
Everyone loves the T-34 because it was simple and easy to produce, the Sherman was exactly the same but even simpler.


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## evangilder (Oct 4, 2004)

I may be wrong, but wasn't the main gun on a T-34 a left hand load weapon? There were a number of Russian tanks that were left hand loaded, meaning that to load the shell, you were better off being left handed due to the what it loads. I remember a big to-do about this prior to the gulf war as most of the tanks in Saddam's army were Soviet tanks with left hand loaded guns which reduced the rate of fire. It was also said that 75% of the army was right handed. Kind of obscure, but interesting nontheless.


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## NightHawk (Oct 5, 2004)

but still the sherman is fast but its poorly armored and its 75mm canon was no match for the side\fron armor of the tiger.but the tiger was originly made after the british matilda tanks were intredusted. befor the tiger only a flak 88 could take out a matilda. i heard storys about shermans thet in the pacific where blown up in to the sky and landed upside down, becuase the japanis put'ed a 1-3 ton bomb under a mine and clearly no tank is a match for a 3 ton bomb exploding under it.


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## plan_D (Oct 5, 2004)

Yes, evan most Soviet tanks had left hand loading they also had a generall awkward loading system. A lot had two piece loading as well. 

The Sherman was fast, reliable, durable, easily maintained and easily produced. Brilliant design for the needs of the hour. It was also up-gunned easily without slowing production. 
Introductions of simpler production methods, improved armour and armament were all done between 1942-1945. The 76mm cannon used on later models of Sherman was decent enough for what was ultimately a conscript tank. 

The Tiger was not introduced because of the Matilda. The actual development of what would become the Tiger started in 1939. The design of the Tiger was ordered 26 May 1941, a time when not many Matilda IIs had been seen by the Germans. 

On top of that, the Matilda could be destroyed by a lot of things under 100m. The FlaK 36 '88' was the best thing because it could do it at 1,500m but during 1942 the Wehrmacht captured F-22 76.2mm AT guns from the Russians to use against the Matilda. They also introduced the Pz. kpfw IV 'special' or Pz. kpfw IV Ausf F/2 in the summer of 1942 which was superior to all tanks of opposing forces and could knock out the Matilda with relative ease.


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## NightHawk (Oct 5, 2004)

i heared a story about a russian heavy tank not is 2 but the............ ha yes KV- 2 whan the germans first saw it. it was broken and the crew inside couldent move the tank. so the germans tried everything to blow up thet tank. and after 2 hours the blow it up. its a monstres tank.


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## plan_D (Oct 5, 2004)

Yes, the KV-2 saw limited action at the start of the war. The Germans captured a few. It had a 152mm cannon but it was mechnically unreliable, heavy and slow. Not only that, on anything but level ground the turret failed to turn. 

German tanks would swarm around individual KV-2s to destroy them. Or they would just knock its tracks off. Most of the time, they just broke down and were abandoned though. 

It's not an impressive tank, but they caused an initial shock. They were designed as bunker busters, to sort out the Finnish Mannerheim Line in the Winter War (1939-1940). After 1942 not much was seen of the KV-2, it never even stayed in production long. Only a few prototypes were built for the Winter War, and 232 were produced in 1941. That's it. 







KV-2. 






KV-2 next to a trackless T-34 Model 1940 (I believe). 






Captured KV-2. 






KV-2 that took a 105mm shell to the chassis. It actually stayed active but was abandoned when it ran out of ammo.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 5, 2004)

the main problem i have with the sherman is that is a petrol, nasty habbit of catching fire..........


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## plan_D (Oct 5, 2004)

Nicknamed the 'Tommy Cooker' by the Germans. That probably was partially solved by increased armour protection on the fuel tank and the introduction of wet ammo. 
A large amount of water and anti-freeze reduced the risk of explosion.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 6, 2004)

i'd still feel safer in a diesil, bit more reliable too................


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## plan_D (Oct 6, 2004)

The Sherman was one of the most reliable tanks of the war. More reliable than the T-34.


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## NightHawk (Oct 7, 2004)

if theres any tank thet i would feel safe in its a IS-2\king tiger.


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## Gemhorse (Oct 7, 2004)

I don't think I'd feel comfortable in any tank, particuarly those run on petrol, irrespective of extra armour etc...- Found this shot of a Panzer hit by 40mm Vickers rounds from a Hurricane D, right through the barrel, the side photo is an exit hole in the side...like a 'hot knife through butter'....


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## Gemhorse (Oct 7, 2004)

Sorry, seems it's rather a large post....still getting the hang of this scanner....


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## NightHawk (Oct 7, 2004)

check this links out and see what happends whan tanks explodes.
http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/ussr/t26_01.jpg
http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/ussr/t34_06.jpg
http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/ussr/t34_12.jpg
http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/ussr/t34_13.jpg
http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/ussr/t34_16.jpg
http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/ussr/lee_02.jpg
http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/ussr/is2_01.jpg
http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/ussr/is2_04.jpg
http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/germany/pz3_05.jpg
http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/germany/pz4_05.jpg
http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/germany/king_01.jpg
http://www.battlefield.ru/destroyed/germany/pz4_03.jpg


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## NightHawk (Oct 7, 2004)

can anybody tell me whats the recoil of "dora" please ?


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 7, 2004)

holy shit


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## NightHawk (Oct 7, 2004)

must be a few kilatons\megatons minimum.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 7, 2004)

I have never seen a gun of that size before


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## NightHawk (Oct 7, 2004)

well you aint seen nothing yet take a look at a d-10\9, no wonder gaza is a stone age settlment.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 7, 2004)

That is not a gun.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 7, 2004)

THIS is big. The Liebherr T282B. The worlds largest Dumper truck...400 ton + payload


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## Crazy (Oct 7, 2004)

'Anzio Annie': Used against the allies at Anzio






'Atomic Annie': 1950's gun capable of firing 500 pound nuclear or conventional projectiles






90mm AA Gun:


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## JCS (Oct 7, 2004)

> well you aint seen nothing yet take a look at a d-10\9, no wonder gaza is a stone age settlment.





> THIS is big. The Liebherr T282B. The worlds largest Dumper truck...400 ton + payload



Thats nothing....Hows this for big? Marion 6360 "The Captain", the largest stripping shovel ever built, also the largest machine to move on land...

http://www.stripmine.org/captain.htm

Or the Bucyrus Erie 4250w "Big Muskie", the largest dragline ever built...

http://www.stripmine.org/muskie1.htm

Unfortunately both are gone.


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## plan_D (Oct 7, 2004)

Tanks weren't well defended against air attacks, in open ground though I'd rather be in a tank than not. The IS-2 wasn't even that good, a Panther was more than a match for it. On top of the Tiger and King Tiger which could easily dispose of the tank. 
Not one King Tiger actually had its frontal armour pierced in World War 2. 

The "Dora" recoil wouldn't have been in the megatonne zone, don't be an idiot. 

The reason Gaza is a stone age area is because your government likes to flatten it, when it isn't even theirs to flatten. 






That's a German FlaK 105mm AA-battery. 

There were several rail guns in German usage throughout the war. Plus there was a cross channel artillery battle. 






One of the guns from battery Todt. 






A 15 inch Coastal Gun in Battery Todt.

The largest mortar in active service during World War 2 was also used by the Germans. Known as the Karlgerat; Gerat 40 and Gerat 41. There were 6 in usage, the Gerat 40 had 600mm armament while the 41 had 540mm. 

All the guns had names. I : Adam. II : Eve. III : Thor. IV : Odin. V : Loki. VI : Ziu.


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## plan_D (Oct 7, 2004)

I've found some information on the "Dora". 

"The 80 cm cannon "Dora" was the biggest gun which were ever built. There were some guns with a bigger caliber like the 91.4 cm Mallet mortar which was used during the Crimea war against Sevastopol and the American 91.4 mortar "Little David" (only one prototype) from the Second World War, but none gun had got such a big total mass like the Dora cannon. It weighed 1,350 tons and shot 7.1 tons Armor-piercing grenade over a distance of 38 km. The pipe weighed 400 t. In 1937 the company Krupp got the order to build this cannon from the Heereswaffenamt on own desire of Adolf Hitler. It was only used one time against Sevastopol in June 1942. Sevastopol was the strongest fortress of the world. Only 48 projectiles were shot with the Dora cannon. To used the cannon two pairs of tracks had to be build. To make it possible that the gun can fire in different directions a shooting curve had to build. To move the gun on this shooting curve two locomotives each with 691 kW were used. This cannon could not be transported in one piece and so it had be build up every time. To build up the tracks and the cannon over 2000 men and special cranes were needed and it took 6 weeks. Protection from air attacks was also very important. The Dora cannon should be primary used against the Maginot line between Germany and France. Another gun like this was built, but with another pipe. This gun was called "Schwerer Gustav" and it was never used. Another gun with the name "Langer Gustav" was also build, but it was not finished. There were even plans for a fourth gun called "Schwerer langer Gustav". For these guns also rocket projectiles were planned, but they were not finished. They should fly up to 190 km. The incomplete "Langer Gustav" was destroyed by air attacks and "Dora" and "Schwerer Gustav" were blown up by a German blowing up command in Kummersdorf in 1945. The construction of these guns were very interesting, but the use was very low. "

http://www.hpwt.de/2Weltk2e.htm


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## NightHawk (Oct 7, 2004)

[quote="
The "Dora" recoil wouldn't have been in the megatonne zone, don't be an idiot. 
why not ? if a 281 kg minigun thet puts about 2400-4200 perminute. has a recoil of...get this 4 tons ! and its shooting only 30mm shels. now dora is a 1350 ton artillery piss thet shoots out a 4.8\7.1 ton shell. now you do the math.


and what do you think thet thet is ???


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## plan_D (Oct 8, 2004)

7.1 tonne shell at 1 shot every 3 hours. The reason the Rotary Cannon has such a large recoil is because of its rate of fire. You jackass. 

What about it? It's a remote-controlled mine clear, and it looks like the Goliath. 

Why are you showing these things? Trying to show off or something?


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## NightHawk (Oct 8, 2004)

One of the most interesting prototypes based Panzer III's chassis was Minenraumpanzer III - mine clearing/mine destroyer tank developed by Krupp. It proved to be unsuccessful and never entered production.



its not the rate of fire.
check this link:http://www.world.guns.ru/machine/minigun-e.htm



and no, i am not showing off you know much about WW2 so im asking thets it. " he who askes is foolish for 5 minutes.he who dosent ask is foolsih for ever".kong fu tza.


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## plan_D (Oct 8, 2004)

It looks like you already have the information there. 

That mine clearer was nothing special. The Germans had many different ones of that sort, the Goliath was the most successful. 

Of course it's rate of fire. Have you fired a gun? Autos held on are kicking more and more than in single shot. It's much harder to hold a gun steady when it is fired continuously, than not.


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## NightHawk (Oct 8, 2004)

im only 13 i cant get a gun. but to bad i would like ot fire one.espicialy the XM-29 O.I.C.W or objective invedual combat weapon


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 8, 2004)

JCS said:


> > well you aint seen nothing yet take a look at a d-10\9, no wonder gaza is a stone age settlment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sweet!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 8, 2004)

> im only 13 i cant get a gun



i'm 14 and i've used guns, even a .308


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## NightHawk (Oct 8, 2004)

well you should try to shoot a Browning M2HB M2HQCB and then we will see how will you feel.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 8, 2004)

Why would you know how he would feel? You said you'd never fired a gun before


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## lesofprimus (Oct 8, 2004)

For me, firing the M-60 SB on full auto, cutting trees down with it, was unreal... The echos u hear when in the mountains from full auto fire is crazy....


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## GermansRGeniuses (Oct 9, 2004)

Plus those are on tripods or bipods, you wouldn't feel kick, just noise and vibrations...


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## NightHawk (Oct 9, 2004)

my weapons of choise are XM-29 O.I.C.W.it has a freaking fire control computer and a 6 20mm granades.plus it has a laser thet will show you where your granade\bullet will hit. http://www.world.guns.ru/assault/as40-e.htm
and the israeli counterpart tavor tav-21
http://www.world.guns.ru/assault/as30-e.htm
and for last the m-99\m99-1 50 cal. anti matirial sniper rifile.
http://www.world.guns.ru/sniper/sn54-e.htm



http://www.world.guns.ru/sniper/sn46-e.htm


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## GermansRGeniuses (Oct 9, 2004)

I'd stick with a Magnum, .357 or .38 ...


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## lesofprimus (Oct 9, 2004)

GrG, the M-60 SB (short barrrel) does not have a bipod, just a hand grip on the foward section where the bipod usually is.... U definatly feel the kick man...


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## NightHawk (Oct 9, 2004)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> I'd stick with a Magnum, .357 or .38 ...


well stick with this. the Sturm, Ruger &Co. Super Redhawk 
Type: Double Action 
Chambering: .44 Magnum 
Weight: 53 to 58 oz.
Barrel length: 7 1/2 or 9 1/2 in.
Capacity: 6 rounds 


This gun comes in the same class as a Colt Anaconda. Medium and big game hunting. Of course, some real big men can select this gun for self-defence... from battle tanks, may be?


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## plan_D (Oct 9, 2004)

The Desert Eagle .50. The most powerful handgun ever made.


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## NightHawk (Oct 9, 2004)

Type: Double Action
Chamber:9mm Para, .40S&W, .45ACP, .41AE (discontinued) 
Weight unloaded: 920g (941FS)
Length: 192mm
Barrel length: 96mm
Capacity: 16 (9mm), 12 (.40), 10 (.45) rounds 
jericho IMI gun.

but il stick with RPG


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 9, 2004)

I rather prefer the Colt 1911 to all those handguns


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 9, 2004)

me too, it's the most succesfull hand gun and most produced of all time.............


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 9, 2004)

Probably the most robust as well.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 9, 2004)

and i don't like the .50 magnum, it's wayyy to big...............


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 9, 2004)

when did anyone mention the .50 Magnum? I see a Desert Eagle .50 but no Magnum .50


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 9, 2004)

the desert eagle .50 magnum is the most powerfull handgun in the world, it's the same gun, i think, or is there a plain ol' .50??


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 9, 2004)

I dunno. My mistake


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 9, 2004)

although some berrettas look quite good, as does the colt MK.IV.............


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## NightHawk (Oct 9, 2004)

hmm well id put a flak-88 outside my door for............any case.


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## lesofprimus (Oct 9, 2004)

Smith and Wesson now has Model 500 firing a .50 Magnum round that has regained the "most powerful handgun in the world" title... 

At the 2003 Shooting, Hunting and Outdoor Trade (SHOT) Show, the manufacturer regained its crown... And, most significantly, it did it by introducing a new massive double-action revolver that is chambered for an equally new .50-cal. cartridge.... With its 8-3/8-in. barrel, the overall length of the Model 500 is 15 in. and the empty weight is 4.5 pounds.... The cylinder alone is almost 2 in. in diameter and approaches 2.25 in. in length.... Thumb the cylinder open and five charge holes await... Each is 1/2 in. in diameter, and the .50-cal. cartridges they hold are almost 2 in. long... Load five of them and the total weight of the handgun climbs to 5 pounds...

The 500 S&W Magnum will produce almost 2600 ft.-lb. with its heaviest load, and more powerful loads may well be on the way...

New VPC Study, Vest Buster: The .500 Smith Wesson Magnum—The Gun Industry's Latest Challenge to Law Enforcement Body Armor, Documents That the "Most Powerful Handgun In the World" Has Armor-Penetrating Power That Can Pierce the Highest Level of Bullet-Resistant Patrol Vests...

Police body armor is designed to protect against handgun threats. The new Smith Wesson .500 Magnum revolver, however, develops a striking force exceeding the power of many rifles. Only special external body armor, designed for use by SWAT teams and other high-risk units, can withstand rifle fire. The .500 Magnum thus brings a new level of handgun threat to the nation's streets. 

"This vest-busting 50-caliber handgun draws a bead on every law enforcement officer in America," said Tom Diaz, VPC senior policy analyst and study author. "It is unfortunately only the latest example of dangerously reckless marketing by America's virtually unregulated gun industry." Diaz further noted that the .500 Magnum handgun, first introduced in February 2003, is already appearing at gun shows, notorious as sources of criminal gun trafficking. In addition, he pointed out, at least one shoulder holster is being sold for the Magnum revolver, thus making it easy for criminals to carry the gun concealed. 

For the report, the VPC analyzed information published by Smith Wesson, ballistics test data from the National Rifle Association's American Rifleman magazine, and federal body armor standards established by the U.S. Department of Justice. Vest Buster demonstrates that the power of the new .500 Smith Wesson Magnum round substantially exceeds the protection of the highest level of concealable body armor normally worn by law enforcement officers in the field, known as Type IIIA. 

The .500 Magnum follows a Smith Wesson tradition of designing extremely powerful handguns. Vest Buster points out that 27 out of 144 (nearly one out of every five) law enforcement officers slain with a handgun from 1998 through 2000 were killed with one of three types of handgun and cartridge combinations originally designed and introduced by Smith Wesson: the .357 Magnum, the .44 Magnum, and the .40 S&W.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 9, 2004)

wow that's one pwerfull piece of kit, wouldn't want to be on the recieving end of one of them things..............


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 9, 2004)

Id rather that than some weak-ass gan that kills you slowly, quick death better than slow death.


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## NightHawk (Oct 9, 2004)

well il stick with a flak-88


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 9, 2004)

as a handgun?


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## GermansRGeniuses (Oct 9, 2004)

lesofprimus said:


> GrG, the M-60 SB (short barrrel) does not have a bipod, just a hand grip on the foward section where the bipod usually is.... U definatly feel the kick man...



I should quoted...

I meant when NH mentioned the thirty...


Anyway, is the SB something like an M249 SAW?


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## lesofprimus (Oct 9, 2004)

No the SAW fires the same calibre as the M-16, 5.56 mm.... The M-60 fires a 7.62 mm round.... The short barrel provides a lighter weapon, easier to handle, and a barrel that doesnt heat up as bad as the standard one... Alos provides a better rate of fire.....


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## GermansRGeniuses (Oct 9, 2004)

What I meant was if the M60 is portable and designed to be handheld, not deployed, like an M249...

I know they use different rounds...


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## NightHawk (Oct 10, 2004)

i still prefer a flak-88. but i would take an MG-42\g-3(g-3 is fitid to use a nato 7.62 rounds insted of the mauser 7.69) but with a titanium barrle so i could shout out at the max rate of the mg-42(1300-1500 per minute)


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## lesofprimus (Oct 10, 2004)

The normal M-60 is not meant to be used handheld.... That is why it comes with a bipod... The M-60SB is meant to be used handheld.... Lighter gun weight also means the gunner can carry more ammo...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Oct 10, 2004)

That was my original question...

If it could be carried and used like an M249 SAW...

Now I know.


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## NightHawk (Oct 11, 2004)

try to carrie a GAU-8 with enough ammo for 1 second of fire.  


and i got to say thet one of the latest modles of the jedapnther looks like a raceing car.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 11, 2004)

You must have funny ideas ov racing cars


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## NightHawk (Oct 11, 2004)

but just look at the slick shape. it looks good. like a sports car.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 11, 2004)

Dude our Vauxhall Frontera is more aerodynamic


----------



## lesofprimus (Oct 11, 2004)

LMFAOROFL......


----------



## NightHawk (Oct 12, 2004)

well is this better ?
i did thet spoiler by my self.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 12, 2004)

No way dude this looks sportier


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 12, 2004)

i can actually see where NH is coming from on this one............


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 12, 2004)

Your hair REALLY is obscuring you vision


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## lesofprimus (Oct 12, 2004)

Its amazing that u can see that many miles with ur super-human eyesight.... And through walls and trees and shit... AMAZING!!!!!

Sadly, I have no super-human powers.... Sure wish I did tho.. Ur a lucky guy CC...


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 13, 2004)

Dude I am in no way lucky, you have no idea how upset i feel right now...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 13, 2004)

what, because you have a girlfriend who loves you??


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 13, 2004)

No, i had an argument with my dad and temporarily ran away from home, if you must know.


----------



## MichaelHenley (Oct 13, 2004)

How did you get onto a computer then?


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## GermansRGeniuses (Oct 13, 2004)

Opel Calibra, not exactly pretty, but can you believe it was the slipperiest production aircraft in the world for a while?

That tank is probably more aerodynamic than an F-1 auto, those have an airflow ratio of 2.00, while a bus has 1.50...

Calibra? 0.35!


----------



## Maestro (Oct 14, 2004)

MichaelHenley said:


> How did you get onto a computer then?



May be at school...


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 14, 2004)

I came back home  


And hey GrG, the Vauxhall Calibra is a pretty coupe  Wow, Vauxhalls have cropped up twice in this thread  Arent we the lucky ones...


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## NightHawk (Oct 14, 2004)

i need help !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i need info of the germen infantry grande!(especialy its name)
plz help


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 14, 2004)

I know its proper name is _Steilhandgrenate_ but thats about it


----------



## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 15, 2004)

do you mean the stick grenade??


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 15, 2004)

Yeah...


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## lesofprimus (Oct 15, 2004)

Potato Masher.....


----------



## cheddar cheese (Oct 15, 2004)

Why did they call it the Potato Masher?


----------



## lesofprimus (Oct 15, 2004)

Because it looks similar to a potato masher used in many kitchens, then and now....


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 15, 2004)

I dont even know what a real potato masher looks like, so if i saw a potato masher i would be the type of person who says "wow, i wonder why they made em look like Steilhandgrenates?"


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## lesofprimus (Oct 15, 2004)

LOL.....


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 15, 2004)

8)


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## lesofprimus (Oct 15, 2004)

You know, I once grew a tomato that looked very much like Margaret Thatcher....

And I said, "Damn.. Why does Thatchers face look like my tomato???"


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## NightHawk (Oct 16, 2004)

in something like a war garden ?



to all of you thet, dont know how dose a potat masher looks like here it is.


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## NightHawk (Oct 16, 2004)

i want to know if the chez S-199 is a messerchmit or not ?
because messerchmit is a germen manufatruror and if its made in the chez republic its no longer a messerchmit.


and by the way look at my new location


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## lesofprimus (Oct 16, 2004)

That is a pic of a new potato masher... The old ones back in the 30's looked quite similar to the grenade, or vice versa....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 16, 2004)

and there were numerous versions of the stick grenade, all did different things.............


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## NightHawk (Oct 17, 2004)

the m-24 is an improved version of the WW1 stick grande, 
you dont want to mash potatos with thet, it can blow you up.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 17, 2004)

well as long as it wasn't armed, could work...................


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## NightHawk (Oct 17, 2004)

and if you have relly hot potatos ??


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 17, 2004)

Potatoes are sick.


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## lesofprimus (Oct 17, 2004)

Huh????? U dont like potatoes????


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## MichaelHenley (Oct 18, 2004)

Wouldn't it be funny if a german infantyman/cook mixed up their stick grenade with a potato masher and it blew up in their potatoes!


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## Maestro (Oct 18, 2004)

Heh...

Cook's steak with potatoes served with ketchup 10.95$...


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## NightHawk (Oct 18, 2004)

heres a good idea, you throw the grande and blow up the enemys potatos and let him starve to deeath.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 18, 2004)

lesofprimus said:


> Huh????? U dont like potatoes????



Nope I dont....Unless theyre in fries form. Even then im picky about them.


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## NightHawk (Oct 18, 2004)

why dont you like potatos ??? if you wont have anything exept potatos will you starve to death ?


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 18, 2004)

Potatoes are just gross.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 18, 2004)

did you know raw potatoes are the only food you can eat for you entire life without dying, i know allot of you will be picky about the way i phrased that, but you know what i mean..................


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 18, 2004)

I think i would rather die than eat potatoes.


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## NightHawk (Oct 18, 2004)

why ???


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 18, 2004)

wow he looks like a potato................


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 18, 2004)

*Bends down and worships the great Lenin*


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## NightHawk (Oct 18, 2004)

you are a potato.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 18, 2004)

No no, If Stalin and Lenin somehow made mad, man love, I would be the outcome. I have had this soviet flag since I joined the site.


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## NightHawk (Oct 18, 2004)

may god help us all.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 18, 2004)

> If Stalin and Lenin somehow made mad, man love



now there's a mental picture i could do without...............


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## NightHawk (Oct 18, 2004)




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## cheddar cheese (Oct 18, 2004)

They would have given birth to several, and then made them play Russian Roulette. I was the winner.


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## lesofprimus (Oct 18, 2004)

Screw all u Commie Bastards....


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## evangilder (Oct 19, 2004)

Let me guess Les, are you also a Cold War vet?

I was USAF 1984-1988


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## NightHawk (Oct 19, 2004)

lesofprimus said:


> Screw all u Commie Bastards....


You are full with american propaganda.


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## evangilder (Oct 19, 2004)

NightHawk said:


> lesofprimus said:
> 
> 
> > Screw all u Commie Bastards....
> ...



What you call filled with American propaganda, I call a patriot. He is a former Navy Seal. I have had a few friends over the years that were seals. Great guys, but don't cross them. They have been well trained to defend themselves. I once watched my buddy Jim drop three guys that jumped him in les than 10 seconds. 2 out cold, 1 bleeding heavily and "listing to port"!


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## lesofprimus (Oct 19, 2004)

US Navy 1988-1995.... Yes Evan, we were trained pretty good in hand to hand... That was the easy part.... 

The hard part was to get through all the tedious, non-productive hours and bad intel, and stay sharp enough that when the hammer fell, we were on it....


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 19, 2004)

I think Communism is a great idea, in theory at least...


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## NightHawk (Oct 19, 2004)

its great to be a communist extrimist


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 19, 2004)




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## NightHawk (Oct 19, 2004)

STALIN FOREVER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 19, 2004)

les, out of interest, what do you do if someone gets you in a half nelson??


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## NightHawk (Oct 19, 2004)

Sun Tzu said: The art of war is of vital importance to the State. 

It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected. 

The art of war, then, is governed by five constant factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations, when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field. 

These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth; (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline. 
[It appears from what follows that Sun Tzu means by "Moral Law" a principle of harmony, not unlike the Tao of Lao Tzu in its moral aspect. One might be tempted to render it by "morale," were it not considered as an attribute of the ruler in ss. 13.] 


The MORAL LAW causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger. 
[Tu Yu quotes Wang Tzu as saying: "Without constant practice, the officers will be nervous and undecided when mustering for battle; without constant practice, the general will be wavering and irresolute when the crisis is at hand."] 


HEAVEN signifies night and day, cold and heat, times and seasons. 
[The commentators, I think, make an unnecessary mystery of two words here. Meng Shih refers to "the hard and the soft, waxing and waning" of Heaven. Wang Hsi, however, may be right in saying that what is meant is "the general economy of Heaven," includi ng the five elements, the four seasons, wind and clouds, and other phenomena.] 


EARTH comprises distances, great and small; danger and security; open ground and narrow passes; the chances of life and death. 

The COMMANDER stands for the virtues of wisdom, sincerely, benevolence, courage and strictness. 
[The five cardinal virtues of the Chinese are (1) humanity or benevolence; (2) uprightness of mind; (3) self-respect, self-control, or "proper feeling;" (4) wisdom; (5) sincerity or good faith. Here "wisdom" and "sincerity" are put before "humanity or benevolence," and the two military virtues of "courage" and "strictness" substituted for "uprightness of mind" and "self-respect, self-control, or 'proper feeling.'"] 


By METHOD AND DISCIPLINE are to be understood the marshaling of the army in its proper subdivisions, the graduations of rank among the officers, the maintenance of roads by which supplies may reach the army, and the control of military expenditu re. 

These five heads should be familiar to every general: he who knows them will be victorious; he who knows them not will fail. 

Therefore, in your deliberations, when seeking to determine the military conditions, let them be made the basis of a comparison, in this wise: -- 
(a) Which of the two sovereigns is imbued with the Moral law? [I.e., "is in harmony with his subjects." Cf. ss. 5.] 

(b) Which of the two generals has most ability? 

(c) With whom lie the advantages derived from Heaven and Earth? [See ss. 7,8] 

(d) On which side is discipline most rigorously enforced? 

[Tu Mu alludes to the remarkable story of Ts`ao Ts`ao (A.D. 155-220), who was such a strict disciplinarian that once, in accordance with his own severe regulations against injury to standing crops, he condemned himself to death for having allowed him horse to shy into a field of corn! However, in lieu of losing his head, he was persuaded to satisfy his sense of justice by cutting off his hair. Ts`ao Ts`ao's own comment on the present passage is characteristically curt: "when you lay down a law, s ee that it is not disobeyed; if it is disobeyed the offender must be put to death."] 

(e) Which army is stronger? [Morally as well as physically. As Mei Yao-ch`en puts it, freely rendered, "ESPIRIT DE CORPS and 'big battalions.'"] 

(f) On which side are officers and men more highly trained? 

[Tu Yu quotes Wang Tzu as saying: "Without constant practice, the officers will be nervous and undecided when mustering for battle; without constant practice, the general will be wavering and irresolute when the crisis is at hand."] 

(g) In which army is there the greater constancy both in reward and punishment? [On which side is there the most absolute certainty that merit will be properly rewarded and misdeeds summarily punished?] 


By means of these seven considerations I can forecast victory or defeat. 

The general that hearkens to my counsel and acts upon it, will conquer: --let such a one be retained in command! The general that hearkens not to my counsel nor acts upon it, will suffer defeat: --let such a one be dismissed! [The form of this paragraph reminds us that Sun Tzu's treatise was composed expressly for the benefit of his patron Ho Lu, king of the Wu State.] 

While heading the profit of my counsel, avail yourself also of any helpful circumstances over and beyond the ordinary rules. 

According as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans. 
[Sun Tzu, as a practical soldier, will have none of the "bookish theoric." He cautions us here not to pin our faith to abstract principles; "for," as Chang Yu puts it, "while the main laws of strategy can be stated clearly enough for the benefit of all and sundry, you must be guided by the actions of the enemy in attempting to secure a favorable position in actual warfare." On the eve of the battle of Waterloo, Lord Uxbridge, commanding the cavalry, went to the Duke of Wellington in order to learn wha t his plans and calculations were for the morrow, because, as he explained, he might suddenly find himself Commander-in-chief and would be unable to frame new plans in a critical moment. The Duke listened quietly and then said: "Who will attack the fir st tomorrow -- I or Bonaparte?" "Bonaparte," replied Lord Uxbridge. "Well," continued the Duke, "Bonaparte has not given me any idea of his projects; and as my plans will depend upon his, how can you expect me to tell you what mine are?" [1] ] 


All warfare is based on deception. 
[The truth of this pithy and profound saying will be admitted by every soldier. Col. Henderson tells us that Wellington, great in so many military qualities, was especially distinguished by "the extraordinary skill with which he concealed his movemen ts and deceived both friend and foe."] 


Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. 

Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him. 
[All commentators, except Chang Yu, say, "When he is in disorder, crush him." It is more natural to suppose that Sun Tzu is still illustrating the uses of deception in war.] 


If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. 

If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. 
[Wang Tzu, quoted by Tu Yu, says that the good tactician plays with his adversary as a cat plays with a mouse, first feigning weakness and immobility, and then suddenly pouncing upon him.] 


If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. 
[This is probably the meaning though Mei Yao-ch`en has the note: "while we are taking our ease, wait for the enemy to tire himself out." The YU LAN has "Lure him on and tire him out."] 

If his forces are united, separate them. 

[Less plausible is the interpretation favored by most of the commentators: "If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them."] 


Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected. 

These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand. 

Now the general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. 
[Chang Yu tells us that in ancient times it was customary for a temple to be set apart for the use of a general who was about to take the field, in order that he might there elaborate his plan of campaign.] 

The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all! It is by attention to this point that I can foresee who is likely to w in or lose.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 19, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> les, out of interest, what do you do if someone gets you in a half nelson??




I think the idea is not to let them get you in a half nelson


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## lesofprimus (Oct 19, 2004)

If someone gets u in a half or whole nelson, the best way to allieviate that situation is quite simple, and there are several ways to get out.....

First what u can do is lift ur leg and kick backwards into their knee, hyperextending it.... 

Second what u can do, is to step one leg backwards and around the attackers leg, and push backwards, tripping said attacker...

Thirdly, u can step sideways, dip ur left or right hip, and basically twist ur torso around, causing ur attacker to flip right over u....

The nelson is a very easy move to counter....


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## NightHawk (Oct 20, 2004)

JCS said:


> > well you aint seen nothing yet take a look at a d-10\9, no wonder gaza is a stone age settlment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HOLY SHIT


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 20, 2004)

Please dont break the margins like that nighthawk. I find this annoying and im sure other users do too.


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## NightHawk (Oct 20, 2004)

sorry, but i couldent rissist thet thing is humangos


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 20, 2004)

Ok mate


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 20, 2004)

yeah it's annoying though, and thanks for the help les..............


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## NightHawk (Oct 20, 2004)

now its better


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 20, 2004)

how did you do it anyway??


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## NightHawk (Oct 20, 2004)

i deleted the !!!!!!'



and here's another monstres thing.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 20, 2004)

i've seen worse..................


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## NightHawk (Oct 20, 2004)

i am tired of looking for CONFUSCIOUS quotes so if you know any please give them to me.


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 20, 2004)

Ive seen that plane before.
Confuscious? What the hell?


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## evangilder (Oct 20, 2004)

Confuscious say: "Man who fart in church, sit in own pew"


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 20, 2004)

Also, "Man who go to bed with itchy arse, wake up with stinky finger"


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## NightHawk (Oct 20, 2004)

not jokes but quotes


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 20, 2004)

They are neither, they are "Quokes"


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## NightHawk (Oct 21, 2004)




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## MichaelHenley (Oct 21, 2004)

They Could also be called "Jotes", but "Quokes" sound better.


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## NightHawk (Oct 21, 2004)

dont use a cannon to kill a musqito, use a flak 88\flak 38 or a BF-109


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 22, 2004)

chances are though the mossie would outrun the 109............

and the cannon and mosquito one was the only one i i knew.................


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## NightHawk (Oct 23, 2004)

he who askes is foolish for 5 minuts, he who dosent is foolish forever.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 23, 2004)

i've heard that one but i didn't think it was one of his..................


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## MichaelHenley (Oct 25, 2004)

A foolish man is one who tries to fart and S**ts himself instead!


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 25, 2004)




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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 25, 2004)

why do i get the feeling that wasn't one of his..................


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 25, 2004)

Errrrrrrrrrr....  What are you talking about?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 25, 2004)

MH's quote...................


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 25, 2004)

He wasn't claiming it as his own


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## MichaelHenley (Oct 25, 2004)

It was a friend of mine's... Not my fault!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 26, 2004)

i didn't blame you...................


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## MichaelHenley (Oct 27, 2004)

Ahh... but you didn't _not_ blame me either!


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 27, 2004)

Good point.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 27, 2004)

it sucks.................


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 27, 2004)

But he's got you though aint he


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## GermansRGeniuses (Oct 27, 2004)

MichaelHenley said:


> Ahh... but you didn't _not_ blame me either!




Tsk, tsk, tsk...

A double negative...


Which means the lanc DID blame you!


 I don't even know what you guys are on about!


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 27, 2004)

GrG just made an even better point!  Things arent looking too good lanc 

Hell me neither, it was so long ago I forgot 

Oh yeah, it was a quote or something


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## MichaelHenley (Oct 28, 2004)

Allright, take out the "not my fault" bit from the pst that started all this!


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 28, 2004)

Oh but i'm enjoying this


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 28, 2004)

but i didn't blame him, and i did, not blame you because i said i didn't blame you...............


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 28, 2004)

Ah but you didnt apologise for blaming him/not blaming him


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## MichaelHenley (Oct 28, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> but i didn't blame him, and i did, not blame you because i said i didn't blame you...............



Whisky, Tango, Foxtrot? That's too confusing for me...


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 29, 2004)

Oh I see, copying Maestro now are we? We are feeling unoriginal today


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 29, 2004)

MichaelHenley said:


> the lancaster kicks ass said:
> 
> 
> > but i didn't blame him, and i did, not blame you because i said i didn't blame you...............
> ...



it makes perfect sence.................


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## cheddar cheese (Oct 29, 2004)

Yeah Im with lanc.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Oct 30, 2004)

just go over it very slowly...................


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## MichaelHenley (Oct 31, 2004)

I can't be bothered


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## lesofprimus (Oct 31, 2004)

To get back on topic, heres something I found about the Pearl Harbor Movie...

This movie was very painful to suffer through, and it qualifies under the Hollywood Abominations category on at least two counts. It portrays one real-life Medal of Honor recipient during the action for which he received it, and it is clear that most of the supposed actions of the two fictional main characters were based on those of another real-life Medal of Honor nominee whose nomination was rejected for clearly petty political reasons. The actions of these real-life men were depicted in other older but still far more superior films which are covered in separate pages on this website. All that notwithstanding, there are other serious historical and technical flaws which make the situations of the fictionalized characters, and other portions of this film, completely impossible. Unfortunately, the unenlightened masses lined up to see this turkey are completely oblivious to these-- in the humble opinion of the authors-- fatal flaws. 

Alec Baldwin's portrayal of Lieutenant Colonel James H. Doolittle during his Medal of Honor-earning raid on Tokyo is the first of these offenses. It is still necessary, however, to point out that just about everyone who ever knew Jimmy Doolittle and has seen this film agrees that he was nothing like the foul-mouthed, arrogant, condescending egotist depicted by Baldwin; for all his accomplishments as a record-setting pilot and the public adulation he was given, before the raid as the foremost aviation pioneer of his era and then for his heroism and rise in rank and command after the raid, Jimmy Doolittle was the very model of humility and self-deprecation. (He lived to the ripe old age of 96 and has been dead for less than 8 years as of the release of this movie, so his memory is still fresh in many minds. Alec Baldwin should consider himself lucky that the family and associates of the late General Doolittle are of the character that they would not visit upon him the same kind of mob wrath that he once publicly called for upon independent counsel Kenneth Starr!) Also, contrary to the depictions of this movie, Jimmy Doolittle was not an operational fighter squadron commander at Mitchell Field, New York in January 1941; his expertise and education were too valuable and he was assigned to Air Force headquarters on a number of special projects prior to the Tokyo raid. (His command of the 17th Bombardment Group was provisional for the purposes of the raid only.)

The real abomination, though, is the way the acts of heroism of Lieutenants George S. Welch and Kenneth M. Taylor were fictionalized and then distorted into the juvenile cartoon-like heroics of this movie (which also closely resembles that in NBC-TV's depiction of Gregory Boyington and his Black Sheep Squadron). This movie is to Tora! Tora! Tora! what Titanic was to A Night to Remember-- a retelling of the same basic historical event with a lot more flash and special effects but sacrificing historical accuracy for the sake of a sappy fictional romantic triangle.

We stopped counting the technical and historical errors after the first thirty minutes of the movie, and are going to focus only on those which render the characters and storyline impossible. Never mind why Army Air Force fighter pilots were having their physical exams done by Navy medical personnel. There is no way that someone with the severe visual directionality perceptual impairment that Ben Affleck's character is supposed to have had would have been commissioned as an officer, let alone graduated from pilot training. How could he safely read an altimeter if he couldn't tell 6 from 9? Forget the stories you might have heard that General George S. Patton had the same disorder; he had obviously conquered this impairment by the time he graduated from West Point. (The popular layman's term for this impairment is dyslexia, but that's just a general term for the inability to read; we wish to point out that author Lyle F. Padilla is a school psychologist in his civilian career and this is his area of professional expertise.) Same for the severe stutter that one of the other fighter pilot characters had; he probably would have been rejected for any type of military service, let alone as a commissioned fighter pilot. The way he reacts to the attack later in the film, failing to give out a cry of alarm, which failure could have gotten everyone killed, is ingly played for infantile laughs but is a perfect example of why such disabilities are cause for disqualification, but not a source of amusement.

The American Eagle Squadrons of the British Royal Air Force did not recruit active duty commissioned pilots from the US Army as they were supposed to have with Affleck's character; they were recruited from the civilian population (although most had some flying experience, and many had washed out from US Army or Navy flight school) and trained to fly in Canada. [On the other hand, General Claire Chennault's American Volunteer Group of the Chinese Air Force, aka the Flying Tigers, was an actual US Government-sanctioned covert operation which did recruit experienced fighter pilots from the US Army, Navy and Marine Corps, but did not become operational until three weeks after the bombing of Pearl Harbor.] Further, the Eagle Squadrons remained in British uniform until late 1942 and then were transferred to the US Army Air Force as a unit which was redesignated the 4th Fighter Group, which eventually evolved to the present day 4th Fighter Wing of the USAF. [Author Ray Castagnaro flew with the 4th Wing for four years in the 1980s and spent many hours in the Wing history archives, painstakingly researching his newly-published novel, in which the creation and evolution of the Eagle Squadrons into the famed "4th but First" Wing plays a pivotal role. During this period, he became a sort of unofficial wing historian and was recognized as such by the Wing Commander.] Unless he was physically unfit for any further military duty, a member of the Eagle Squadron would not have been released from the RAF. It would have been quite impossible for him to have been reassigned "back" to the US Army in Hawaii in December 1941.

The unenlightened viewer may be dazzled by the computer-generated imagery of the aerial combat both over Pearl Harbor and with Affleck's character over the English Channel earlier in the film, but this is only further confirmation of what the authors have long asserted: that nobody in Hollywood knows what a real dogfight looks like, let alone has any concept of the fundamentals of basic fighter maneuvering. By using flash cuts and whip-panning in a patchwork of incoherent scenes, they've managed to bamboozle the unenlightened audience into believing they're watching an accurate depiction of aerial combat, based in the filmmakers' own ignorant beliefs that a dogfight consists of nothing but zipping across the sky in straight lines at top speed with an occasional zig-zag, and trying to line up directly behind your target in a tail chase. This movie is another giant step down the primrose path which George Lucas started the world's movie-viewing public with the first Star Wars movie in 1977; the authors distinctly remember the documentary on the making of that movie, in which Lucas patted himself on the back for patterning his battle scenes after what he claimed to be the most realistic dogfight scenes ever filmed, and at the same time in the documentary intercutting his scenes with those from A Yank in the RAF which were absolutely the phoniest looking flying scenes ever filmed! Take the word of two old former F-4 Phantom jocks: the last movie ever made that accurately showed what aerial combat looks like was The Blue Max back in 1966, around the time most of the producers and directors who presently control the Hollywood studios were born.

[But, we hear some of you ask, wasn't The Blue Max about biplanes and triplanes in World War I? That's exactly our point! These FX wizards in today's movie industry don't realize that fighter planes in every war still loop and turn and barrel roll in a graceful aerial ballet like they did in The Blue Max, and one of the saddest ironies is that, cinematographically, they're missing the beauty of it! A P-40 Kittyhawk fighting a Zero over Pearl Harbor looks pretty much the same as a Sopwith Camel fighting a Fokker Triplane over the trenches of WWI. So does a P-51 Mustang fighting an FW-190 over Berlin, an F-86 Sabrejet fighting a MIG-15 over Korea, an F-4 Phantom fighting a MIG-21 over Hanoi, and an F-15 Eagle fighting a MIG-29 over Baghdad.]

We don't have the time to teach you a full course in Basic Fighter Maneuvers, but suffice it to say that the silly trick that Ben Affleck and Josh Hartnett supposedly pulled off over Pearl Harbor, playing "chicken" with each other with hordes of Zeros on their tails, pulling off in a tight turn and suckering their pursuers into ramming into each other head-on, is extremely improbable if not impossible. In the first place, if the two of them had stayed straight and level as long as they needed to in order to start their game of "chicken", they would have been blown away as easy meat for their pursuers. Even overlooking that fact, if a pursuing fighter is trying to maintain a guns-tracking index on his target which then goes into a sudden hard turn, the pursuing fighter will instinctively try to stay inside the target's turn. The pursuer will do this automatically and reflexively by either by pulling a tighter pure-pursuit turn to maintain the tracking index, or by pulling upward in a high yo-yo or quarter-plane maneuver for more turning room, therefore missing another fighter doing a symmetrical move from the opposite direction. If that's too complicated for you to understand, let's just say that it didn't happen over Hawaii on December 7, 1941, and we've never heard of it happening any place else in 87 years of aerial warfare. 

The sequence in Tora! Tora! Tora! which depicted Welch's and Taylor's actual interception of the attacking Japanese waves, while still not perfect or up to par with The Blue Max, was several notches above the sequences of Affleck's and Hartnett's characters in this movie. Tora! Tora! Tora! used real airplanes instead of the clueless fantasies of some computer cartoonists reveling in their own hype.

As for the final sequence depicting Doolittle's Raid, the authors can appreciate the use of dramatic license to enhance basic history (and have done so ourselves in some of our respective unpublished fictional writings), but not to the extent of compromising that basic history or creating an impossible situation. Once again, it would have been impossible for four fighter pilots, let alone those from Wheeler Field, to have participated in that raid, let alone be crewed together as two pairs of aircraft commanders and co-pilots. In the first place, the 17th Bombardment Group was selected for the mission because it was the first unit to become operational with the B-25 Mitchell and therefore they were the most experienced B-25 crews in the entire Air Force; they had been flying the B-25 for a year and were the only ones proficient enough to attempt to take off from an aircraft carrier. The four months between December 7, 1941 and April 18, 1942 would have been just barely enough time for a P-40 pilot to retrain to a level of basic operational proficiency in the B-25, and nowhere near enough time to attain the proficiency to even start practicing the short-distance fully-loaded takeoffs. In the second place, there is no way that any surviving combat-ready fighter pilot would have been released from Wheeler Field in the immediate aftermath of Pearl Harbor (unless his visual perceptual impairment or stuttering were finally found out!). Think about it: nobody knew that the Japanese weren't planning to come back to Hawaii, and everyone assumed that an actual land invasion was imminent. George Welch and Ken Taylor stayed at Wheeler for several months before being transferred; Welch's next three kills didn't happen until the exact first anniversary of the Day of Infamy.

Another inaccuracy worth mentioning about this depiction of the Doolittle Raid (which was correctly depicted in Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo) is the way all 16 B-25s were shown attacking Tokyo in a tight formation; in the first place, because of the tight fuel limitations which were further compounded by their forced premature launch, they did not have the time or the fuel to circle and form up; they went in single-ship. In the second place, they fanned out and attacked targets spread out across Tokyo and four other cities on the Japanese mainland.

The one thing we can say for this movie is that it helps both Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo and Tora! Tora! Tora! stand out as the great enduring classical films they remain today, 57 and 31 years after their respective releases. [We also find it incredibly ironic that this disappointing and over-hyped film was released approximately the same number of years after Tora! Tora! Tora! as Tora! Tora! Tora! was after the actual bombing of Pearl Harbor, Hickam and Wheeler Fields. Perhaps in another 30 years or so someone will get back to basics and do the heroes of December 7, 1941 some justice. More likely, an even worse film will be made!] And we can only hold the forlorn hope that in the fallout from all the hype from this turkey, perhaps some renewed public interest in the real-life heroism of George Welch and Ken Taylor might be sparked, and give them their long-overdue recognition.


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## Maestro (Nov 1, 2004)

An other weird thing in that movie is that during BoB, the Eagle squadron (in the movie) was equipped with Spitfires. While they were (in real life) equipped with Hurricanes.

However, I don't share your advice concerning George Lucas and space combats in Star Wars.


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## lesofprimus (Nov 1, 2004)

That was not my post but a copy and paste.. I thought that was obvious...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 1, 2004)

you must have got tons of combat kills for that post, and the film was absolute crap.................


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 1, 2004)

Yup, totally rubbish.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 2, 2004)

and suprise suprise, a war film that makes america out to be the magnificent heros that could do no wrong, how original..................


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## NightHawk (Nov 7, 2004)

The only good thing about the movie, was the part thet the ships started to blow, thets the only good scean in the movie.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 7, 2004)

but they're not even old ships, you can see the modern radar............


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## NightHawk (Nov 7, 2004)

But still the CG looks cool. 8)


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 7, 2004)

The best thing was when it ended.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 8, 2004)

tou mean you actually watched it 'till the end, what a looser...........


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 8, 2004)

Looser? I dont recall being in the loosening business...


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## MichaelHenley (Nov 8, 2004)

Does the loosing buisness have anything to do with mechanics?


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## NightHawk (Nov 8, 2004)

I am sorry i have to divert from the subject, but i must get it out.
GODDAMNIT !!!!!!
WOW !!!!!!!!!!
My new AMD 64 bit 3000+, GIGABYTE K8 TRITON nForce 3 250 series.512 ram DDR, 80 gb Serial ATA.
WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i hope you forgive me for this.


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 9, 2004)

Yeah I forgive ya 

MH, i believe it might do, but you will have to ak the lanc, no-one understands him except himself, and even then he has trouble


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Nov 9, 2004)

it's the stutter.................


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## cheddar cheese (Nov 9, 2004)

Wow, stutter typing...in this modern world it seems even the disabilities are going onto computers


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## GT (Apr 9, 2005)

Update


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 9, 2005)

man that brings back memories of the crappy combat sequence between A6Ms and P-40s in the film of pearl harbor...........


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 9, 2005)

UGH, dont remind me


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 9, 2005)

wow i never realise you were here..........


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 9, 2005)

Got online 10 mins ago or so.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 9, 2005)

had a good day??

right in an attempt to keep this on topic, i went to truro today, i bought a set of small files to use for modelmaking, i mean they could be used on a model of a plane that flew over PEARL HARBOUR............


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 9, 2005)

I suppose so. Yourself?

Also in an attempt to keep this on topic, there are some random pieces of paper in front of me, on which I could draw a historical item relevant to PEARL HARBOR...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 9, 2005)

dude over here we spell harbour with a "u"..........

and yeah i've had a great day, i might tell you why later................

and to keep this on topic, i'm posting this in a thread titled "pearl harbor" and as of now this post also contains the name "pearl harbour".........


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 9, 2005)

Yes but as Pearl Harbor was in America, and they dont spell it with a u, I left it out 8) (I have tendencies to spell the American way more than the British way...)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 9, 2005)

but i'd still spell it with a "u"...........


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 9, 2005)

"u" would   Arent I the funny one.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 9, 2005)

that's pretty good actually........


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## GT (Apr 10, 2005)

Update


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## GT (Apr 14, 2005)

Update


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 14, 2005)

cheddar cheese said:


> Yes but as Pearl Harbor was in America, and they dont spell it with a u, I left it out 8) (I have tendencies to spell the American way more than the British way...)



*AS LONG AS WE DON'T SPELL IT "HA-BA" *(Japanese for harbo(u)r


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 14, 2005)




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## GT (Apr 15, 2005)

Update


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