# Which countries would you like to see...



## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 9, 2005)

in a best fighter pilot thread?



Feel free to leave suggestions, but only stating which countries is fine...


(We'll see which country has the most votes and thus the most choices...)


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## Medvedya (Jan 9, 2005)

Urmm, you would have to have German and Russian aces in there wouldn't you?

It would be a bit like leaving Brazil out of a 'Greatest Footballing Nations' poll.


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 9, 2005)

Like I said, the country that gets the most votes gets the most choices, thus the reason for the obvious being up...


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## Darkstalker (Jan 9, 2005)

I think Germany will be on the lead


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## kiwimac (Jan 10, 2005)

What! No Albanian option??????

Kiwimac


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 10, 2005)

That's why Others is there...


Vote for it, leave a suggestion for country and pilot, and we'll see what we can do!


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 10, 2005)

I'm assuming Gross Britanien includes the Commonwealth countries (Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc, etc...) ?


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 10, 2005)

Hmm...



Seeing as how they WERE part of the U.K. at some time, I'd have to say yes...


Make sure you leave a suggestion, or else it will be assumed you mean England...


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## evangilder (Jan 10, 2005)

I would say US, UK, Japan and Germany. Those are the main ones I think of. I know there were probably aces from other places like Russia and Italy, I just don't know much about them.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 10, 2005)

While this is great, it really doesnt affect the greatest ace poll... People who deserve to be on this list are..... The most eligible....

There are not alot of people that know alot about aces... I consider myself one who knows a good deal.... There are a few others that may know more, but the majority know alot about planes and little on pilots....

I can only list 15 pilots... It makes it very difficult.... Just because a certain pilot is ur favorite, doesnt make him the Greatest..... REMEMBER THIS.....

Educate yourselves with the names on the poll.... Do a search on the name... Everyone of them will have 25 links for them.... Read alittle if ur unsure..... Then make ur vote.....

Its interesting to see that Hans-Joachim was almost tied with Herr Hartmann..... I think if more people knew about certain people on this poll, the tallies would vary more....

Im going to make the new poll with the listed pilots in the other thread... I think I have everyone covered one way or another.....


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 10, 2005)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> Seeing as how they WERE part of the U.K. at some time, I'd have to say yes...



Never part of the UK, part of the Commonwealth.  

That is, countries that were dominions of the British Empire but were self-governing. The United Kingdom refers to Great Britain (England, Scotland, and Wales) plus Northern Ireland.



And that's my sticky point for the evening!


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 10, 2005)

Les, if you want to take George Beurling off the list, go ahead. Most people here probably don't have a clue who he was anyway, and if it's just going to make it that much more confusing then it's probably not worth it.

I only suggested the name because he was Canada's leading ace, but how many Canadians generally post here anyway? A few. Like you say, there were many more deserving pilots who should probably be listed, and just because someone is your favorite it doesn't necessarily make him the best.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 10, 2005)

OK...... Thats cool, glad u see it my kinda way....


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 10, 2005)

How about this?

Jochen
Bader
Galland
Bong
Kozhedub
Hartmann
McGuire
Gabby
Notwony
Sakai
Eino Juutilainen (94.5 kills, 34 in Buffalos)
Beurling
Pips
Molders
Wolfgang Falck (Or some other NF pilot, I don't know many...)



How about that?


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## evangilder (Jan 10, 2005)

You make a good point, Les. I know alot about airplanes, but my knowledge of aces is pretty weak. Sure, I know names like Dick Bong, mcGuire, McCampbell and a few others. I had heard of guys like Molders ,sp?. and Galland. It was only since I have been here that I have heard more of the other aces. I think having the names in the polls gives us all an opportunity to learn more.

Funny how alot of emphasis goes into fighter pilots, which is deserved, don;t get me wrong. But rarely do people hear names of bomber crews, outside of the pilots. Everyone knows names like Paul Tibbetts and Jimmy Doolittle. Sorry, just an observation.

I would be curious if there are known German bomber crews that survived a ton of missions. Did they stay together as a cohesive crew like the Americans mostly did? Sorry I am off topic.


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## kiwimac (Jan 11, 2005)

There was the Japanese ace with 100 kills whose name I have forgotten.

Kiwimac


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## lesofprimus (Jan 11, 2005)

Actually the highest scoring Japanese ace is Hiroyoshi Nishizawa, credited with 87 official confirmed victories.....

Here is my file on japanese aces.... Most reference the 87 as the correct score... There was no such thing as record keeping for the latter years of the war....

Imperial Japanese Army Air Force
1/ Hiromichi Shinohara / 58 / All in Manchuria 
2 / Satoshi Anabuki / 51 
3 / Sumi Kamito / 40
4 / Isamu Sasaki / 38 
5 / Mitsuyoshi Tarui / 38, (incl. 28 in Manchuria)
6 / Isame Kashide / 32 
7 / Sada Koga / 31
8 / Yasuhiko Kuroe / 30 
9 / Shogo Takeuchi / 30 
note that most JAAF high scorers fought in the Nomonhan border war with Russia in 1939, which compares interestingly with the huge scores attributed to Finnish Brewsters in their 1941-44 border war on the Russian's western front. 


Imperial Japanese Navy Air Force
1 / Hiroyoshi Nishizawa / 87
2 / Tetsuzo Iwamoto / 80
3 / Shigeo Fukumoto 72
4 / Shoichi Sugita / 70
5 / Saburo Sakai / 64
6 / Takeo Okumura / 50 
7 / Toshio Ota / 34
8 / Kazuo Sugino / 32


Japanese Aces AllTime

Nishizawa 87 (87 of 184 claimed confirmed)
Iwamoto 80 (64 of 202 claimed confirmed)
Sugita 70 (70 of 120 claimed confirmed)
Sakai 64
Shinohara 58
Anabuki 51 (39 of 96 claimed confirmed)
Okumura 50 (50 of 84 claimed confirmed)
Sasaki 38
Tarui 38
Ota 34
Sugino 32
Kashide 32
Kuroe 30
Takeuchi 30

Japanese Aces
Hiroyoshi Nishizawa 87
Tetsuzo Iwamoto 80 
Shoychi Sugita 70 
Saburo Sakai 64
Hiromishi Shinohara 58
Satoshi Anabuki 51
Takeo Okumura 50
Isamu Sasaki 38
Micuyoshi Tarui+ 38 
Toshiyo Ota 34
Kazuo Sugino 32 
Yashiki Kuroe 30
Shizuko Ishi 29
Kaneyoshi Muto 28 
Chiyoshi Saito 28 
Kenji Shimada 28 
Sadaaki Akamatsu 27
Isamu Hosono 27 
Yunishi Sasai 27
Rikia Shibata 27
Goychi Sumino 27 
Moricugu Kanai 26
Hidenori Macunaga 26
Shogo Saito 26
Goro Furugori 25 


Claimed Kills vs Verified

Tetsuzo Iwamoto 202 - 64
Hiroyoshi Nishizawa 174 - 187 (104 confirmed?) 
Shoichi Sugita 120 -70 
Takeo Okumura 98 -50
Satoshi Anabuki 96-39
Mitsuyoshi Tarui 76-10 
Tadashi Nakajima 75
Isamu Sasaki 75-32
Shigeo Fukumoto 72
Toshio Ota (Devil of Rabaul) 68-34
Saburo Sakai 64
Kazuo Sugino 64-32
Yasuhiko Kuroe 60-28
Junichi Sasai 60-27
Hiromishi Shinohara 58
Sadaaki Akamatsu 54-16
Naoishi Kanno 53-25
Goro Furugori 50-25
Kenji Okabe 50-15


Lt(jg) Tetsuzo Iwamoto 202 
CPO Shoichi Sugita 120+ 
WO Hiroyoshi Nishizawa 87 
WO Shigeo Fukumoto 72
Ens Saburo Sakai 60+
Lt(jg) Junichi Sasai 54
CPO Takeo Okumura 50 
Ens Kenji Okabe 50 
Lt Naoshi Kanno 48 
WO Ryoji Ohara 48 
Lt Cdr Iyozoh Fujita 42 
WO Sadamu Komachi 40
Ens Kaneyoshi Muto 35 
PO1/c Toshio Ota 34 
WO Kazuo Sugino 32 
WO Takeo Tanimizu 32 
Ens Susumu Ishihara 30+ 
CPO Shizuo Ishii 28 
Lt(jg) Sadaaki Akamatsu 27 
WO Nobuo Ogiya 24
CPO Yoshimi Hidaka 20 
Lt(jg) Shigeo Sugio 20 

Officially Recognized: 
Nishizawa = 87 
Iwamoto = 80+ 
Sakai = 64 
Sugita = 30+ 
Source: Japanese Fighter Aces and Fightere Units - Pages 239 thru 243 




nishizawa 87
shigeo fukumoto 72
sho-ichi sugita 70
iwamoto 66
sakai 62
takeo okumura 50
yoshihiko nakada 45
sumi kamito 40 +
anabuki 39
toshio ota 34
morichiki kamae 32 (moritsugo kanai???)
isamu sasaki 32
kazuo sugino 32
goro Furogori 30 (+20 in china???)

Tetsuzo Iwamoto 202 Mitsubishi Zero 
Hiroyoshi Nishizawa 174 Mitsubishi Zero (carrier) 
Shoichi Sugita 120 Mitsubishi Zero 
Takeo Okumura 98 Mitsubishi Zero 
Satoshi Anabuki 96 Mitsubishi Zero (carrier) 
Mitsuyoshi Tarui 76 Mitsubishi Zero 
Isamu Sasaki 75 Mitsubishi A6M2 
Shigeo Fukumoto 72 Mitsubishi Zero 
Inyo Endo 69 Mitsubishi A6M2 
Toshio Ota 68 Mitsubishi Zero 
Saburo Sakai 64 Mitsubishi Zero 
Kazuo Sugino 64 Mitsubishi A6M2 
Yasuhiko Kuroe 60 Mitsubishi Zero 
Junichi Sasai 60 Mitsubishi A6M2 
Hiromishi Shinohara 58 Mitsubishi Zero (carrier) 
Sadaaki Akamatsu 54 Mitsubishi Zero (carrier) 
Goro Furugori 50 Mitsubishi A6M2 
Kenji Okabe 50 Mitsubishi Zero 
Naoshi Kanno 48 "Tony" 
Ryoji Ohara 48 Mitsubishi Zero 
Yoshihiko Nakada 45Mitsubishi Zero 
Yohei (johei) Hinoki 45 Mitsubishi Zero (carrier) 
Iyozo Fujita 42 "Tony" 
Sumi Kamito 40 Mitsubishi Zero 
Sadamu Komachi 40 Mitsubishi Zero (carrier)

Japanese Fighter Aces

Name Kills 
Hirojoshi Nishizawa 87 
Shigeo Fukumoto 72 
Sho-ichi Sugita 70 
Tecuzo Iwamoto 66 
Saburo Sakai 64 
Horimichi Shinohara 58 
Takeo Okumura 54 
Satoshi Anabuki 51 
Johei Hinoki 45 
Yoshihiko Nakada 45
Sumi Kamito 40 
Micuyoshi Tarui 38
Isamu Sasaki 37 
Toshio Ota 34 
Kazuo Sugino 32
Sada Koga 31 
Yasuhiro Kuroe 30 
Shizuo Ishii 29 
Takeyoshi Muto 28
Chiyoshi Saito 28 
Sada-aki Akamacu 27 
Isamu Hosono 27 
Jun-ichi Sasai 27 
Rikio Shibata 27 
Kenji Shimada 27 
Goychi Sumino 27 
Moritsugu Kanai 26 
Isamu Kashiide 26 
Takaji Kimura 26 
Hidenori Matsunaga 26 
Goro Miyamoto 26 
Shogo Saito 26 
Goro Furugori 25 
Tomio Hanada 25 
Tokuyasu Ishizuka 25 
Naoshi Kanno 25


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## evangilder (Jan 11, 2005)

Getting solid numbers on Japanese aces is difficult as there is a reliance on logs and memories of the pilots. Keeping a score was against Japanese military policy as they felt that it took away from unit cohesion and favored pilots with more kills. But I think that 87 for Nishizawa is generally accepted by historians. The numbers will vary depending on the source you look at. Nishizawa is also generally accepted as the highest scoring ace of Japan.


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## Lightning Guy (Jan 11, 2005)

The class system in place in Japan also hurt the record keeping. Lower-class pilots generally were not recognized.


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## evangilder (Jan 12, 2005)

That is also true, LG.


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## tino (Jan 29, 2005)

There are not alot of people that know alot about aces.A little-known segment of World War II history, featuring expatriate Polish pilots flying in the Battle of Britain after the fall of their country in 1939.Treated with disdain at first by their Allied partners, the pilots quickly became legendary for their fearless aerial exploits throughout the war. The Kosciuszko Squadron is credited with shooting down 126 German planes in six weeks of combat, more "kills" than were credited to any other squadron attached to the RAF during that same period. Nine of the Kosciuszko Squadron pilots become aces, and five were awarded the RAF's Distinguished Flying Cross.
_Question of Honor - The Kosciuszko Squadron: Forgotten Heroes of World War II_ by Lynne Olson and Stanley Cloud


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## lesofprimus (Jan 29, 2005)

Hell of a first post... Not a hello or nothing.....

Recommendation Tino.... If ur gonna stay around here, change ur name to something alittle more personal....


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## Medvedya (Jan 29, 2005)




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## mosquitoman (Jan 29, 2005)

Most of the "Free" forces fought with more ferocity than the likes of Britain and the US, just look at the Poles when they took Monte Cassino


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## trackend (Jan 29, 2005)

I must dispute that statement im afraid mossi howabout Kohima or mt Suribachi I think all nations have their moments don,t you?
As for which aces I think Russia as most of the other nations seem to be better documented.


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## plan_D (Jan 30, 2005)

Yes, and you don't think the British fought with complete ferocity when defending their home land? Kind of disrespectful of your own nation there. 

And the Poles took Monte Cassino after the Fallschirmjager had been battered, and then swamped with Polaks. You should look at the feat of the 1st/4th Essex and the Gurhkas at Monte Cassino.


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## tino (Jan 30, 2005)

Buddy you missed the point............ 
Average person in United States doesn't even know that there were any Polish fighters at the Battle of Britain. I just learned from the book that I'm reading (that I mentioned before) that almost 30,000 Polish pilots and flight personals were fighting in Britain during the WW II. 
It's never going to be enough to thank them for that. Because they fought for us too. After WW II a lot of people were trying to forget about them. Well, they succeeded at least in USA. Anyways, were always supposed to remember what they did for us.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 30, 2005)

which is what it's all about................


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## plan_D (Jan 31, 2005)

I'll allow it, for the US point. The people who know about WW2 here in Britain know about the Polish flying for them in the BoB and the Polish fighting on the ground. Hell, the Polish helped in the Operation Market Garden to pull the lads out of Arnhem!

Other than that, most people don't even know about WW2 itself.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 31, 2005)

sorry what now??


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## plan_D (Feb 1, 2005)

What?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 1, 2005)

well that pretty much sums up your knowledge of WWII..........


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## GermansRGeniuses (Feb 1, 2005)

tino said:


> Buddy you missed the point............
> Average person in United States doesn't even know that there were any Polish fighters at the Battle of Britain.





None of us here are exactly average people...


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## trackend (Feb 2, 2005)

Many Poles stayed in the UK after the end of hostilities some because of the political situation in their homeland ,some because they fought on the axis side and had been taken POW (going home was not an option for them as they feared reprisals) and some got married and decided to stay in the UK. 
I use to work with quite a few polish veterans in my industry (railways) as it was a popular choice for them after de-mob, I heard some interesting tales but only from the allied veterans (one fella was in a calvary unit at the outbreak of hostility's). 
Every time any of the Poles where on the same shift together and they fought on different sides it was a pain in the arse (nearly always ended in a punch up). 
And even though they weren't in the flush of youth some of them were tough old buggers and I've been on the receiving end of a few good right handers trying to part them. For myself I can say hand on heart I know (perhaps not first, but second hand) what quite a few Poles did for the allies.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 2, 2005)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> tino said:
> 
> 
> > Buddy you missed the point............
> ...



that works on so many levels...........


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 4, 2005)

To damn right im not, has your average person been 6 foot 3 since they were about 12? Does the average person have 2 different coloured eyes, one of which changes colour? Does the average person learn how to drive a car when they are 11? Does your average person have a - no perhaps I shouldnt go there


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## tino (Feb 4, 2005)

cheddar cheese
I didn't tnow you knew mi...............


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 5, 2005)

MY god, please dont tell me you match that description


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## kiwimac (Feb 5, 2005)

I have always been interested by the insanities of war, some examples.

An Italian POW jumping into a river in flood to save an english boy dying in the attempt.

An englishman awarded a VC while in a POW camp was feted by the Commandant who insisted that the guards had to salute the man.

U-boats / subs surfacing to pick up the men whose ships they had just torpedoed.

German medical staff moving heaven and earth to save a Russian pow...

and the list goes on....

Kiwimac


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## cheddar cheese (Feb 5, 2005)

Crazy


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## evangilder (Feb 5, 2005)

Indeed, Kiwimac. War brings out the best and worst in people. There are alot of interesting stories like that. Look how many times, especially with pilots where the vistor would fly over the guy who was shot down to either make sure he gets down okay or to salute him.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Feb 5, 2005)

stories like that are absolutly amazing i find..........


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## plan_D (Feb 6, 2005)

Funny about the U-Boat commanders, more so because 'Skip' Miers used to gun down German survivors from ships he'd sunk and he was awarded a VC.


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## gepp (Oct 20, 2009)

"Australia" IMO it always seems to me that us Aussies are forgotten when it comes World War II Aviation we had some pretty good aces.


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