# Germany vs Japan



## rebel8303 (Dec 13, 2004)

I don't know if this is the right place to be but...

What do you think?
If Germany and Japan had won WW2 would there be another war between them?

I think there would be a great one where the winner would take it all...


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 13, 2004)

If there was then Im fairly sure Germany would win.


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## rebel8303 (Dec 14, 2004)

For sure Germany had much better equipment than Japan. But I don't know what Japan was about to develop at that time.


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## evangilder (Dec 14, 2004)

There was shared technology. The Japanese had the plans and example aircraft and built some Me-262s and Me-163s. What would most likely have made the difference though would have been the rocket technology. If Germany ahd won the war, they could have continued development of the V2 and it would have only gotten more advanced. Interestingly, the Germans were working on nuclear technology as well. Do you think that the Germans would have dropped a nuke or 2 on Japan?


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## rebel8303 (Dec 14, 2004)

Ths could be done as well... But America did it first


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 15, 2004)

Actually the Germans were developing a nuke before the Americans but we destroyed their resources...


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## evangilder (Dec 15, 2004)

Alot of the scientists on the Manhattan project were German, several were Jewish that had fled Germany. I have seen documents that said the Germans were close to nukes, and I have seen others that said they weren't very close. Which is correct, I do not know.


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## rebel8303 (Dec 16, 2004)

Not concidering the atom bomb,
the japs might lose the war but there would be great battles.
Think of the wermaht in the jungle and the U-boats in the pacific quiet different isn't it. But as far as the air force is concerned well then I'm sure that Germany will have the upper hand...


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 16, 2004)

For sure. The Japanese planes werent much to rave about at the end of the war. A Ta-152H would decimate a Ki-84 or Ki-100 in a dogfight.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 16, 2004)

Generally, German technical expertise was quite superior to Japan's, and this was obviously reflected in their equipment. The Germans were also responsible for developing many of the modern battle tactics, still practised by armed forces across the world. All in all, the Germans were just more innovative as well as driven by a psychopath named Adolf Hitler.

My bet would have been on Germany.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 16, 2004)

However I think around the 1945 period the Japs had more resources than Germany and this could have evened things out a bit.


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## rebel8303 (Dec 18, 2004)

As far as the resources are concerned we don't know how the world would have been separated. If Japan had conquered Siberia and part of North America it would have advantage of the resources.

So technology is not the only matter is it?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 18, 2004)

the japs were facing a similar fuel situation to the germans...........


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 18, 2004)

But the Jap planes were more economical with their fuel, as the engines were a lot smaller...


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 18, 2004)

Had Germany and Japan acheived their respective goals of conquest during WWII, both nations would have possessed _tremendous_ resources anyway.
Therefore, my original thought stands. I think Germany would have won a war with Japan.


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 18, 2004)

What if Finland got involved too though and beat both Gemany and Japan with a few B-239's


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 18, 2004)

It would start raining blue arse flies, and the cow would beat the snot out of the spoon, thereby starting a rather chaotic series of events that could only end in complete wackiness!


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 18, 2004)

Oooooooo  Go Finland!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 19, 2004)

what each side has cheerleaders now??


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 19, 2004)

Cheerleader: singular in Finlands case


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## rebel8303 (Dec 20, 2004)

And then Switzerland got fed of all that crap and conquered everyone and then some aliens came on earth and everyone died (both humans and aliens)


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 20, 2004)

(sob, sob!) Poor humans!


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## cheddar cheese (Dec 20, 2004)

The Swiss are humans?


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## wmaxt (Dec 21, 2004)

Germany. If they had won WWII they would have had the technology, the resorces and more importantly, recently uncovered papers revel, the desire/plans to do it. Japan had only limited objectives in WWII self suffency and parity with the western powers - Hitler wanted it all.


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## rebel8303 (Dec 21, 2004)

I think that even if only USSR had been devided between Japan and Germany they would go to war with the pacific and the european theaters raging. They were never actually an axis.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 21, 2004)

Huh?


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## HealzDevo (Dec 22, 2004)

I think what Rebel is getting at is the fact that the Axis was only formed by Germany, Italy and Japan because it suited them at the time given what was going on. If circumstances changed drastically I think Hitler would have taken Japan to himself once he had finished all his war plans.


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## rebel8303 (Dec 22, 2004)

That's exactly what I was thinking!


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 22, 2004)

Oh, I see.


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## plan_D (Dec 22, 2004)

I doubt it. Even Hitler would have realised the human cost on taking on Japan after so much blood had been spilling was beyond what Germany had, or was willing to lose. 

If you look at the war from the German peoples point of view, it all had a reason to happen. Hitler convinced all of Germany that there was a reason. Invasion of Poland, to defend Germans in Poland and take back German land (Danzig and Pomeneria). Invasion of France and Lowlands, the French and British were a threat to German security. The Invasion of Russia, they were communists and were a threat to Germans living abroad as well as a threat to German power. These were all believable...Invasion of Japan.....a land some 9,000 miles away that after war is no possible threat to Germany, or its people...the German people, not even the SS, would have accepted an excuse.


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 22, 2004)

Good points.
So hypothetically, who would you have envisioned winning a war between Germany and Japan?


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## plan_D (Dec 22, 2004)

Germany, without a doubt.


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## rebel8303 (Dec 22, 2004)

I hadn't think of that.
I was reading an article about Ki-84. It said that it was the best Japanese fighter produced in large numbers. It was better than P-51 and P-47 as far as maneuvers are concerned and it had heavy armament as well. It lacked of the max speed and the range I think. It was a quiet good aircraft don't you think?
Moreover Japan was cursed because of the lack of resources especially alluminium. So they used wood to built their planes and they designed their planes concidering this factor. I think Japan could have many good aircraft if US had lost the war on the Pacific and the japs could make use of the resources of the continental Asia. I have not seen or read about Ki 100 but it is said to be a very good aircraft but it was produced in very small numbers.


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## plan_D (Dec 22, 2004)

The Ki-84 was good but if we're talking Japan vs. Germany, Germany had the Go-229 to bring into service which would have out-classed anything the Japanese had. Plus the Germans had the use of Rockets.


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## evangilder (Dec 22, 2004)

The Germans had the V1 and V2 as well as others in development that would have gotten better without the threat of allied bombers. Between their rocket development and possibly nuclear capability, I don't think the Japanese would have had much of a chance. I never heard of any nuclear experimentation going on in Japan at the time. Doesn't mean it wasn't, but I never recall hearing about Japanese nukes. 

The Japanese soldiers fought with savage tenacity and it is doubtful that the Germans would have had any easier a time of it than the allies. Between the nukes and Germany's heavy bomber production that could have been in high gear with an allied loss, the Germans would have it.


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## plan_D (Dec 22, 2004)

If the Germans had beaten the Allies, we're not talking V-2. We're talking A-10 ICBM with nuclear warhead landing on Japan...


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## evangilder (Dec 22, 2004)

I didn't know the names of the future developments of the V2 program, but figured it would be more advanced to launch at Japan. I shudder to think of a world run by Nazis!


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## plan_D (Dec 22, 2004)

The A-10 was the development name of, what I imagine, would have been called the V-3 like the V-2 was called the A-4. I've seen the design and a nice little computer generated shot of how it would have worked. Basically a collection of V-2s together, as one ran out of fuel it would fall away.


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## wmaxt (Dec 24, 2004)

The Japanese had limited objectives - to get recourses to be indipendant had they been denied those recourses (all Japan has is coal and not a great deal of that) they would die on the vine. With capable troops the Japanese in China and Mongolia were easily mopped up by the Russians and would have been no trouble to the Germans.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 25, 2004)

apparently at one point the germans were sending the japs a copy of the plans for their A-bomb when they knew they'd loose the war, but it never got to japan...........


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## wmaxt (Dec 25, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> apparently at one point the germans were sending the japs a copy of the plans for their A-bomb when they knew they'd loose the war, but it never got to japan...........



At the end of the war the Germans sent a large quantity to Japan to create a "Dirty Bomb" for use against the US. The war ended and the sub surrendered to the US with the material still aboard - saved San Fransico!


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 26, 2004)

oh ok thanks..................


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## rebel8303 (Dec 26, 2004)

I imagine the consequences if it had succeeded its mission...
Shock and awe?


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## HealzDevo (Jan 18, 2005)

There is still one major problem with that. The material has to actually get to the US in some way. It would be a very difficult journey from Japan, even its captured islands to the coast of the US with the danger of being destroyed on the way. So far as is known if this plan was to succeed, there must have been enclosed with the shipment, the plans to the Amerika bomber, otherwise there wouldn't have been the necessary range.


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## delcyros (Mar 3, 2005)

What a question! 
But just for fun, here we go:
A) Germans never seriously intended to build a nuke. Heisenberg did miscalculated the critical mass. Right, there were more scientist in germany which knew about this error, but nothing happans. Hitler cuts down the fundings of nuclear research -but they managed to come VERY close to an working nuclear power plant. As the Farm Hall reports indicate that a correct solution of a nuke was found in within a single week of intensive discussion. However, some doubt that Heisenberg wanted to build a bomb -more a weapon of beeing- for Nazis. Others did suceed in a even more horrible weapon project: From 1943 on IG Fareben tried to make c. Botulinum suitable for bomb use. Botulinum is the most dangerous material known to mankind (except maybe physical anti energy). It was the first biological-weapon. 1000 g would be -theoretically- enough to kill millions of people. B) How could germans deploy troops to japan mainland? Against a much superior japanese fleet? (remember all the carriers and -yamato- class battleships) 
No way, that couldn´t happen. Simple Destruction only.


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## mosquitoman (Mar 3, 2005)

If the Japanese wanted to get a nuke to America it could load a Seiran with the bomb attached and put it in one of their subs which had a hangar, it would have a small chance of not getting shot down. But, think of the consequences.


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## trackend (Mar 3, 2005)

Hi Delcyros welcome on board  
I think the first biological weapons where employed in the middle ages during sieges it was quite common to lob rotten animal or combatants carcasses over the walls to try to spread maladies .
If the Germans didn't intend to build an A bomb how come they had such a big heavy water programme. somehow I couldn't imagine Adolf not wanting to have such a power at his command and I don't mean to produce electricity


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 4, 2005)

they were tryin to develop an A-bomb...........


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 4, 2005)

We know...


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## delcyros (Mar 4, 2005)

> Jup, You´re right. B-weapons are to be used since VERY ancient times.
> (indeed, I had an excavation at Monkodonja/Croatia, an early to middle bronze age settlement/fortification (around 1900 BC-1200BC, excavation still under progress)and it seems, after all, that the only water source was poisoned -well there were huge amounts of animal bones (mostly bos taurus)- somehow. So you are right, Botulinum wasn´t the first B-weapon
> Anyway it was too much a danger to the germans as well. I have read somewhere (try google) that a He-177 was/should be refitted in the closing months of WW2 to carry a nuclear bomb. That should happen at around Prague, but again I doubt. There is simply no reliable source to proof that claim. I doubt that Hitler was even informed about the nuke. Probably not. Heavy water has not much to do with enrichment of Uranium, but you neeed it for other things (here again the Uranbrenner of Kummersdorf), which have more in common with power plants (and of course, IF you have a working power plant you can easily get the nuclear material you need to build a nuke). And think of all the coal which would have been saved for other needs (weapon production). But all the ressources could have made a greater impact eslewhere, I think. Back to the topic: A9/A 10 ICBM against Japan /maybe also US terretory? They wouldn´t have been very reliable. They would have costed years in development (A9 was in progress with A4b) and you could only hope to hit one of Japans isles! Imagine a nuke warhead exploding somwhere at Peenemünde during a failed rocket launch in 1948! And how to ferry all the troops and tanks??? Impossible for the germans. Look at their sweet tiny fleet (exceptions would be granted for the type XXI submarines), they could never provide protection for their transporters with KM....[/i]


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## mosquitoman (Mar 5, 2005)

If the Germans had taken Russia all the way to Siberia, it would be a comparitively short hop away. Alaska would have been under threat aswell


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## Nonskimmer (Mar 5, 2005)

And everything south and east of it.


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## mosquitoman (Mar 5, 2005)

Good point


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## delcyros (Mar 5, 2005)

Could be a short trip from Wladiwostok to Japan, agreed. But
1.) You have to bring your tanks to that point (around 10000 miles with the
transsibirian railway-which was in the 40´s the only way to transport heavy vehicles)
2.) You need ships (no plane could carry a Panther or Tiger)
3.) You need to protect them against
A) Japans superior cruiser and destroyer fleet (Long Lance torps.!!!)
B) Japans superior (in numbers) air force operating from the homeland
C) Kamikaze 
D) Submarines 
E) Carrier based strikes
F) Heavy surface Forces, superior in numbers and Quality
And remember, it takes a lot of time to build a fleet! There was no possibility for Germany to support large armed forces that far away with all it needs: ammo, fuel, food, resupply and it would be hard, if not impossible to control strike ops from Germany. (Support by air wasn´t possible for Stalingrad, not to mention a supply line across Sibiria)


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## marseille jr (Jun 15, 2005)

Still, I'm quite convinced them germans would have beaten them japanese. In 46 the japânese would have had the kikka and rocket planes, and the germans would have rocket planes too the faster me262, ta184, he162, ar 234, a jet driven dive bomber and the first long range stealth flying wing bombers (the B2 was inspired by this design). As for pistons fighters, the japanese had formidable planes but they lacked HP's, except for the ki-84 maybe, to compete with ta-152's or do-335's. And I do think Hitler wouldn't have minded to obliterate japan with atomic bombs if he had had them.


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## evangilder (Jun 15, 2005)

Just an aside, the B-2 was not inspired by the German flying wing. Jack Northrop had been working on the idea for a long time. It is said that Jack was workign with the design as far back as 1923. The first of his flying wings, the N1M was first flown in 1940, followed by the N9M. After that came the XB-35 and B-49. 

There has been speculation that German spies in the US were reporting the work of Northrop back to Germany which led to the Horten Ho V, which bears a striking similarity to the Northrop N9M. 

Which was first is not known with any precision, but to say that the B2 came from the Horten design is a bit of a stretch.


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## Nonskimmer (Jun 15, 2005)

I agree. The Northrop design was original.


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## marseille jr (Jun 15, 2005)

> Which was first is not known with any precision, but to say that the B2 came from the Horten design is a bit of a stretch



It must be said however, that Northrop engineers did pay an enriching visit to the museum were the Horten was stored. There certainly WAS a lot of influence. The German Horten was far ahead of its time and a brilliant piece of engineering. It is said it was to be used to carry an atomic bomb to the USA and return afterwards.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 16, 2005)

The Horton would not have had the range for that. And if you are talking about the Ho-229, it is in the National Air and Space Museum in Washington DC but is not out for viewing at the tiem because it is being restored.

*Gotha Ho-229*

Origin: Gothaer Waggonfabrik AG. to Horten design (see note below)
Type: Single seat fighter/bomber

Engines:
Two Junkers Jumo 004B turbojets
Thrust: 1,980lb (900kg)

Dimensions:
Span 16.75m
Length 7.47m
Height 2.80m

Weights:
Empty: 10,140lbs (4600kg)
Max. loaded: 19,840lb (9000kg)

Speed:
607mph (977km/h)
Ceiling:
52,500ft (16,000m)

Range:
1,970 miles (3170km) at 393mph (635km/h) with two drop tanks

Armaments: Planned
Four Mk 103 or Mk 108 cannon
Plus
Two 1,000kg bombs



> Comments:
> First flown in January 1945, the Ho 229 was the innovative design of Walter and Reimar Horten, both former Luftwaffe officers. The test programme showed the 229 to have outstanding speed and handling characteristics but developement was halted when US troops overran the research facility. Some dispute has arisen over whether the 229 should be classified as the Go 229 or Ho 229. Since Gothar was supposed to build 229 and didn't really design it, I'm arbitrarily going with the Ho 229 designation in honor of the designers.
> http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/ho229.html



If you are talking about the Horton Ho-XVIIIA-B then yes it was designed for the *"Amerika Bomber"* program.

*Ho-XVIIIA*



> In 1944 the RLM issued a requirement for an aircraft with a range of 11000 km (6835 miles) and a bomb load of 4000 kg (8818 lbs). This bomber was to be able to fly from Germany to New York City and back without refueling. Five of Germany's top aircraft companies had submitted designs, but none of them met the range requirements for this Amerika Bomber. Their proposals were redesigned and resubmitted at the second competition, but nothing had changed. The Hortens were not invited to submit a proposal because it was thought that they were only interested in fighter aircraft.
> After the Hortens learned of these design failures, they the went about designing the XVIII A Amerika Bomber. During the Christmas 1944 holidays, Reimar and Walter Horten worked on the design specifications for their all-wing bomber. They drew up a rough draft and worked on weight calculations, allowing for fuel, crew, armaments, landing gear and bomb load. Ten variations were eventually worked out, each using a different number of existing turbojets. Several of the designs were to be powered by four or six Heinkel-Hirth He S 011jet engines, and several of the others were designed around eight BMW 003A or eight Junker Jumo 004B turbojets.
> The version that the Hortens thought would work best would utilize six Jumo 004B turbojets, which were buried in the fuselage and exausted over the rear of the aircraft. They were fed by air intakes located in the wing's leading edge. To save weight they thought of using a landing gear that could be jettisoned immediately after takeoff (with the additional help of rocket boosters) and landing on some kind of skid. The Ho XVIII A was to be built mainly of wood and held together with a special carbon based glue. As a result, the huge flying wing should go largely undetected by radar.
> The Hortens were told to make a presentation for their Amerika Bomber design on Febuary 25, 1945 in Berlin. The meeting was attended by representatives of the five aircraft companies who originally submitted ideas for the competition. No one challenged their assertion that their flying wing bomber could get the job done. A few days later the Hortens were told to report to Reichsmarshall Göring, who wanted to talk to the brothers personally about their proposed Amerika Bomber. There they were told that they were to work with the Junkers company in building the aircraft.
> ...



*XVIII-B*



> After being dissatisfied with the committee designed Ho XVIII A, Reimar Horten redesigned the flying wing Amerika Bomber. The proposed Ho XVIII B had a three man crew which sat upright in a bubble-type canopy near the apex of the wing. There were two fixed main landing gear assemblies with two He S 011 turbojets mounted to each side. During flight, the tires would be covered by doors to help cut down on air resistance and drag, a nose wheel being considered not necessary. Overall, the aircraft would have weighed about 35 tons fully loaded. Fuel was to be stored in the wing so that no auxiliary fuel tanks would be required. It was estimated that the Ho XVIII B would have a range of 11000 km (6835 miles), a service ceiling of 16 km (52492 feet) and a round-trip endurance of 27 hours. Although armament was considered unnecessary, Reimar Horten proposed that two MK 108 30mm cannon could be mounted directly below the cockpit. It was decided that construction was to be done in two bomb-proof hangers near Kala, which had concrete roofs 5.6 meters (18.4 feet) thick. In addition, extra long runways had been constructed so the aircraft could be test flown there too. Work was supposed to start immediately, and the RLM expected the Ho XVIII B to be built by the fall of 1945, which Reimar Horten reported to be impossible. At any rate, Germany surrendered two months later before construction could begin.
> Span: 40 m (131' 4") Length: unknown Max. Speed: 850 km/h (528 mph)
> http://www.luft46.com/horten/ho18b.html


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## delcyros (Jun 17, 2005)

There are two independent and parallel developments:
1.) Northrops flying wings
2.) Hortens flying wings.

The first flying wing of Horten, the Ho-I glider flew for the first time in jule 1933. Probable we don´t see much influence here from Northrop.
Northrops flying wings as the Ho-I suffered from bad flying characteristics, esspeccially at low speed. We would say that these designs were pretty unstable. It wasn´t prior to june 1937 that the Horten brothers proved that a bell shaped lift distribution makes a flying wing configuration stable. Test verified this on the Ho-II. The Ho-II m of 1938 was the first piston dirven flying wing of the Hortens. In 1936 they build the very first plastic plane, the Hols der Teufel, a plane in normal layout and the 1936 (!) Ho-Va also was made almost entirely from plastics. The Ho Vb and Ho V c derivates from the Ho-Va.
The influence goes from Germany to the US and back, that´s what I believe happened. A 1937 edition of the New York Times shows a picture of the Ho-II Glider (D-10-131) in flight and the title: "German Flying Wing over Berlin" Northrop got the development contract after this date. Could it be that there is a connection?
Later in the war, in the mid early 40´s Northrop build unstable flying wings, and this could indeed led to the enforced Ho-IX-project. 
Northrop never took notice of the bell shaped lift distribution even at a time when Horten himself wrote him a letter from Argentinia in the mid 50´s...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 17, 2005)

Personally I believe there was some cross influence going on here.


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## delcyros (Jun 18, 2005)

Agreed. Cross influence may explain the allowed development of these unconventional and therefore "risky" concepts. 
The Ho-IX as well as the Northrop flying wings count for me to the timeless beautiful designs.


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## wmaxt (Jun 18, 2005)

There is little evidence of cross pollenation of ideas. After the war I'm sure data was examined and considered at least. As for a connection to a published article of the Horton aircraft and the issueance of a contract to Northrop - most likely - but it would be to counter a percieved advance by a possable adversary. It does not infer any connection between the two designs/data. 

All flying wing designs are unstable logitudinally, stall easily, and when stalled are unrecoverable - even the Horton. Stall prevention/recovery was mandatory in the Air Force at the time of the Northrup Flying Wings and poor stall behavior was a major issue in it's demise. It was only when computer (fly-by-wire) systems that could prevent flight conditions leading to stalling that a flying wings were practical/safe enough for normal service. This is the reason when the B-2 in slow flight will have it's split alerons open and creating drag on the furthest aft portion of the aircraft.

wmaxt


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 19, 2005)

wmaxt said:


> There is little evidence of cross pollenation of ideas. After the war I'm sure data was examined and considered at least. As for a connection to a published article of the Horton aircraft and the issueance of a contract to Northrop - most likely - but it would be to counter a percieved advance by a possable adversary. It does not infer any connection between the two designs/data.



There are just too many similarities. There was a lot of espionage going on at the time. They were 100% indipendent designs but I am sure ideas were stolen from one another.


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## wmaxt (Jun 19, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> There are just too many similarities. There was a lot of espionage going on at the time. They were 100% indipendent designs but I am sure ideas were stolen from one another.



It's always possible, however the US was so isolationist before the war it wasn't even well known in our government that the Nazi's had built up their military to the extent they did. It's embarrassing but we really had our heads in the sand - what you don't see, can't hurt you.  I guess it could have gone from the US to Germany but the Hortons seemed to be at least as far along as Northrup.

There is also the rule "Function defines form and vice-versa". 

Before the war, It's possible but I don't think it was likely. After the war, I'm positive material was studied and anything useful would have been incorporated.

wmaxt


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 20, 2005)

I would not be surprised if information leaked into Germany. The Germans had an extensive spy agency up and running.


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## wmaxt (Jun 20, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I would not be surprised if information leaked into Germany. The Germans had an extensive spy agency up and running.



True enough.

wmaxt


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## P38 Pilot (Jun 20, 2005)

I dont belive their would be a great war, i just think they would have divided the land: Germany one side; japan the other; But we didnt let them do that eh?!


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## P38 Pilot (Jun 20, 2005)

Who do u think is better: Germany or Japan? I think Germany because they were the first ones to build jets and also built V-1 and V-2 rockets. They also built some of the first camera guided weapons


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 21, 2005)

I believe German only because of the tactics and weapons. However the V-1 was a lousy weapon, only inovative for its time, the V-2 was never going to win the war either. Both were no more then terror weapons.

As for the Jets, England was developing jets at the same time. The Germans were just the first to put them into service.


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## plan_D (Jun 21, 2005)

That's actually wrong, the Meteor was the first into service. The Me-262 was the first jet into service _and_ meet enemy opposition.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 21, 2005)

No actually the Me-262 was the first operational jet fighter. The Me-262 saw service for the first time in June 1944 and the the Meteor in July 1944. 



> The fifth prototype was the first Meteor to fly, when it made its first test flight on March 5, 1943, piloted by Michael Daunt. The prototypes were powered by two de Havilland Halford H.1 turbojets, but de Havilland reserved the production of these engines for its own de Havilland Vampire design......
> 
> The first aircraft were delivered to the Royal Air Force on July 12, 1944 and one was also sent to the US in exchange for a Bell YP-59A Airacomet for comparative evaluation. The Meteor Mk. I saw action for the first time on July 27, 1944 against the V1 Flying Bomb. The Meteor never saw aerial combat against the Luftwaffe despite flying missions over Germany from January 1945, using the Mk. III variant from bases in Belgium.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Meteor





> History: First Flight July 18, 1942(Turbojets) April 4, 1941 on Jumo 210 piston engines; Me 262A-1a June 7 1944; First Delivery (A-0 to Rechlin) May 1944; first experimental combat unit (EK 262) June 30, 1944; first regular combat (8/ZG26) September 1944
> http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/me262.html


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## plan_D (Jun 21, 2005)

EKdo 26 were a training unit which converted to a fully functioning squadron. The Meteor I was delivered to a full functioning squadron before the Me-262.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 21, 2005)

EK262 was actually an operational testing unit that tested the aircraft in combat in June 1944.


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## plan_D (Jun 21, 2005)

I'm being picky but the RAF have training squadrons with new aircraft before they get converted to operation squadrons. The EKdo 26 was one such squadron in Germany but the Meteor was in the RAF training squadron before the Me-262. I'll find the squadron somewhere.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 23, 2005)

If you wish but I am sure the Me-262 saw operational status first.


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## syscom3 (Aug 14, 2005)

I will assume that neither force posseses a nuke. A battle between Japan and Germany would be a maritime battle. 

A German fleet would have to operate thousands of miles from Europe and then crack the Malay Barrier. Considering the air and naval forces Japan could put into that area, German fleets would have been crushed. The only hope they would have would to have a large number of aircraft carriers. Not one of Germanies vaunted airplanes ever flew and operated from an aircraft carrier. Nor can anyone in their wildest dreams think the Germans in only a few years, could build, train and operate a naval air arm the size that would be needed. 

I also find it hard to believe that the Germans could open up a front in Siberia/Manchuria and successfully support it. There was only one railline available, thousands of miles long, and it would have been easy for the Japanese to shut it down.

And if anyone has an idea of basing the Luftwaffe in China, look at how complex it was for the US 10th, 14th and 20th AF's to operate there in 1944 and 45 when the japanese were on the verge of collpase.

I'd say that Japan could hold its own against the Germans.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 14, 2005)

The only way that I could see a Germany/Japan conflict would be after Russia, England, and the US were out of the war. It would have to happen in the Manchuria area or maybe India. I dont think that it would have been to much of a problem because Russia had plenty of recourses for the Germans to use. Again though as you said syscom I doubt it could have ever happened anyhow.


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## mosquitoman (Aug 15, 2005)

It would depend on Russian people and resources. With the addition of Russian men and machines Germany would be impossible to halt (at least by the Japanese). If Germany could land forces on the Japanese mainland it would be all over


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## Smokey (Aug 15, 2005)

*Battle of Halhin Gol (1939)*

This incident had a massive effect on WW2 and shows soviet forces against japanese forces in 1939

Losses on both sides were heavy, and the soviets won and the japanese leadership agreed with the existing border

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-Japanese_Border_War_(1939) 

*Influence on World War II*

Although this engagement is little-known in the West, it was to have profound implications for the future conduct of the World War II.

The incident convinced the Imperial General Staff in Tokyo that the policy of the "strike north" faction, which wanted to seize Siberia as far as Lake Baikal, for its resources, was untenable, as the Red Army was too strong. Instead the "strike south" faction, which wanted to seize the resources of South East Asia, especially the oil of the Dutch East Indies, gained the ascendancy and this policy was put into effect, leading directly to the attack on Pearl Harbor two and a half years later in December 1941.

It was the first victory for the famed Soviet general, Georgy Zhukov. The battle experience gained by the Siberian army, was put to good use when in December 1941 outside Moscow, under the command of Zhukov, Siberian divisions spearheaded the first successful Soviet counter-offensive against the German invasion of 1941. The decision to move the divisions from Siberia was aided by the Soviet's masterspy Richard Sorge who was able to alert the Soviet government that the Japanese were looking south and were unlikely to launch another attack against Siberia in the immediate future. Sorge also gave Stalin the exact date of Operation Barbarossa.

In addition, as a result of this battle, Japan was reluctant to attack the Soviet Union directly through the course of the war, preferring eventually to fight the United States. As neither side of this battle were open about their opinions to its result, Adolf Hitler had no idea when he openly declared war on the United States. He had hoped of gaining Japanese support against the Soviet Union with this act, unaware that his ally was unwilling to do so because of the previous encounter.

Also interesting is *Operation August Storm*, which shows soviet forces fight japanese forces in 1945

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Storm

This gives an idea of what might have happened if the Axis had won and Hitler had attacked Japan from the former soviet union.
Though it would be immediately obvious what Hitler was doing if he started building up forces near Manchuria.


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## schwarzpanzer (Aug 15, 2005)

> 2.) You need ships (no plane could carry a Panther or Tiger)



Could the Ju 390 do this maybe?



> F) Heavy surface Forces, superior in numbers and Quality



Quality? I don't think so??



> And remember, it takes a lot of time to build a fleet!



Germany would simply use American/British air carriers, like it did with French craft for Operation Seelowe?



> As for the Jets, England was developing jets at the same time. The Germans were just the first to put them into service.



Actually the 1st jet engine was made by Whittle turbojets in '23 IIRC?

The 1st jet plane to fly was German, so was the 1st jet to manned aircraft combat, but the Metoeor was the 1st plane to enter service.



> That's actually wrong, the Meteor was the first into service. The Me-262 was the first jet into service and meet enemy opposition.



I think a Meteor prototype took out a V1, without any guns!

(It tipped it over!)

What people forget is Australia had the most Tungsten and also had considerable iron and aluminium ore, I reckon the Japanese would have had Oz?



> It would depend on Russian people and resources.



They would be exterminated as untermenche and they knew it, they would fight to the death and are very capaple.

Also most nations such as Britain would sue for peace under favourable circumstances, but would resist much harder than the Marquis etc, and I believe if persecuted, would fight to the death also.

This would also likely be true of the USA and Commonwealth.

Excellent info on that post there, thanks Smokey.



> Though it would be immediately obvious what Hitler was doing if he started building up forces near Manchuria.



Not necessarily, fake a Manchuria Russian revolt, after this act is 'crushed' place troops and railtracks there?


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## mosquitoman (Aug 18, 2005)

On land Japan wouldn't stand a chance- their tanks were toys compared to the Panthers and Tigers of the Wermacht


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## schwarzpanzer (Aug 18, 2005)

I don't know, they may have captured/copied Pershings?


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## mosquitoman (Aug 18, 2005)

Good luck to them then, I still wouldn't like to be in Japan's shoes


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## syscom3 (Aug 19, 2005)

I still am not convinced that even if Germany could move an army to Manchuria (and I admit, roll over the IJA), they could have done anything more. To cross the Sea of Japan, land a large enough force against a very hostile terrain and populace, and then supply it would require an effort that would equal, if not exceed the plans for Olympic/Coronet.

I still need someone to disprove to me that this would be foremost a maritime battle. Just think, a single rail line, thousands of miles long, will be used to support an army. Blow up a train or two of landing boats, then what will be used to get across the sea? Shut it down a few days here, a few days there, and soon you run out of time to build up your forces.

Simply saying that the Germans would take the US and UK fleets and use it for its own use is not an option. Those fleets would have been sunk or scuttled. Plus, Germany would need to build a vast battle fleet, supply maintain them, and also be able to perform major repairs. All of it, thousands of miles from a modern seaport.

Plus..... Germany would need to mount the largest invasion in history hundreds of miles from the nearest supply bases, which would all be in easy target range of Japanese planes and ships.

The only way Germany could mount an invasion of Japan from Manchuria would be to defeat the IJN at sea and crack the Malay/Indonesia barrier. And thats where they would be defeated. Saying that advanced jets will be used isnt really practical. Remember the 1st generation jets were quite sensitive to battle damage. The attrition rate of having those hypothetical bombers flying thousands of miles to attack a fleet, then return home with damage would have been unsustainable. Look at how bad the 20th AF loss's would have been if Iwo Jima wasnt in American hands?

And if those that are inclined to say "Germany will use Russian resources", I counter with "Japan will use Asian resources". Dont underestimate the appeal of throwing off Western Imperialism had on many people in Asia.


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## schwarzpanzer (Aug 20, 2005)

Your right there, but I reckon that Germany would just A-Bomb Japan via either a V3/V4 or an Amerika-jet bomber?

Out of interest, does anyone know what was the planes that would be used on that German aircraft carrier (Graf Zeppelin?) or any '44 carrier projects?


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## plan_D (Aug 21, 2005)

The Bf-109T and Ju-87C were to be used on the Graf Zeppelin.


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## schwarzpanzer (Aug 23, 2005)

Cheers PlanD!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 30, 2005)

schwarzpanzer said:


> Your right there, but I reckon that Germany would just A-Bomb Japan via either a V3/V4 or an Amerika-jet bomber?



There was no Amerika-jet Bomber.All the bombers in the Amerika projects were prop engined aircraft and they were the Bv-222, Bv-238, He-177 (surprise huh), He-274, Ju-290, Ju-390, Ta-400, Me-264/4m, and Me-264/6m. The only one that had a chance was the Me-264/6m with it is 6 engines and 17000 (suposed) range. The 264/6m was never built only the 4 engined 264/4m was built and flown. I am curretnly reading a book on this project. Has great pictures, charts, graphs, and even actual written convos between the manufacturers, test pilots, and the RLM.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 3, 2005)

There was one with 4 Jumo 004's, that book sounds good (though I really have too many!  )


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## mosquitoman (Sep 3, 2005)

According to 1 or 2 of my books, 1 He177 was adapted to the role of nuclear bomber by the end of the war and it was captured near Berlin


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 4, 2005)

schwarzpanzer said:


> There was one with 4 Jumo 004's, that book sounds good (though I really have too many!  )



The only one that was even considered was the Ju-287 and that was quickly thrown out because there was no way to get the range required. They did play around with Ju-290's and Ju-390's using rocket motors to get it up quicker and to increase the range but the project proved disastrous on the 390 with rocket motors because if just one of the 8 motors failed on take off the aircraft would have been lost.


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