# Best ISA's?



## schwarzpanzer (Sep 13, 2005)

In your opinion, what was the best Infantry Small Arm in it's class?

Mine:

Handgun

1st Colt 1911A1 (Browning HP close 2nd)

SMG

Thompson M1928A1

Assault Rifle

STG44

Rifle

SMLE

LMG/MMG

MG42

HMG

DShk


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 13, 2005)

I like the STG44, K98 Mauser, and the M1 Gerand


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 14, 2005)

Why the Garand?  

The G41 mit Schalldamfer is 8) 

Do you know of the Fedorov Avtomat and PPK44 DerAdler?

- Interesting WW1/WW2 weapons.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 14, 2005)

I just like the M-1 Gerand. Personally I like the K98 Mauser better than the Garand but the Garand sort of set the tone for what that kind of rifle should be like.

I have heard of the PPK44 I think.


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## plan_D (Sep 14, 2005)

I like the K98 it's got a great effective range and accuracy. It's also got decent stopping power. The M1 Garand was effective, eight rounds at semi-automatic fire. It was more advanced than the German designs when it came about. In fact, the Germans struggled to match it. 

Obviously the StG.44 was the best assault rifle. It was the only one. And the actual name "Assault Rifle" comes from that rifle. 

My favourite LMG would be the Bren. It was the most accurate of the war and my Grandad used it in Burma when he was a Blitzer.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 14, 2005)

plan_D said:


> I like the K98 it's got a great effective range and accuracy. It's also got decent stopping power. The M1 Garand was effective, eight rounds at semi-automatic fire. It was more advanced than the German designs when it came about. In fact, the Germans struggled to match it.



And that is why I like both of them.


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## Glider (Sep 14, 2005)

For me the choices would be

Handgun 
Colt 1911, good hitting power although a touch to powerful for some

SMG
MP40, light, reliable and controlable

Assult Rifle
STG 44 Nothing to touch it anywhere

Rifle
M1 Carbine. Large capacity, a good rate of fire and it had few of the tactical disadvantages of the Garrand which would be my second choice. Lacked range but OK up to 300 meters which was enough for most soldiers.

Sniper Rifle
Lee Enfield Mk 4 Sniper. Accuracy, reliability, range scope that came with it.

LMG
Bren, portability with firepower, accuracy and reliability.

GPMG
MG42 need I say anything

HMG
Vickers. Utterly reliable and accurate


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 14, 2005)

> Obviously the StG.44 was the best assault rifle. It was the only one.



I dunno, I'm sure not all Fedorovs were retired?



> In fact, the Germans struggled to match it.



I reckon the G43 was superior.

I'd rather have the Tommy than the M1 Carbine and MP40 Glider.

The Vickers was great, but not upto the DShK IMHO.

The PPK44 is the Kalashnikov SMG, love that mechanism!

- I wonder if any were used?


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## plan_D (Sep 15, 2005)

The Carbine isn't a SMG so why are you saying you'd rather have a Thompson? The G43 was designed to defeat the M1 Garand which had been around for years. It was a revolution in wartime weaponary.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 15, 2005)

> The Carbine isn't a SMG so why are you saying you'd rather have a Thompson?



I take it you've never seen its ammo?

Well, its a pistol bullet! A greatcoat is defense @ 50m - proven!



> The G43 was designed to defeat the M1 Garand which had been around for years. It was a revolution in wartime weaponary.



Actually it was an Amalgam of the G41 and Tokarev rifles, the Germans had battalions with SLR's at the turn of the Century.

The Garand wasn't bad, but not revolutionary, I'd rather have an SMLE personally.


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## plan_D (Sep 16, 2005)

How can you compare the Carbine to the Thompson, the Carbine is not a SMG - the Thompson is. You made sure you equalled them out in your first post among catergories, so why mix the Carbine with the Thompson now?

The Thompson is .45 cal - that's a "pistol bullet". The Carbine is 5.56mm, which isn't a "pistol bullet". 

The self-loading rifles were prone to jamming on most occasions. The Garand was much more reliable, and the G41 was poor.


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## Glider (Sep 16, 2005)

The Thompson was hard to control with a definate swing. The SMLE was the best bolt action rifle but the Semi Automatic was a massive improvement for combat. In a hand to hand situation the bolt action was not viable, you had one shot and then the only real alternative was to hit them with it. So good as it is, I wouldn't have gone for the SMLE.
I prefer the carbine for its magazine capacity and the lack of combat limitations over the M1.

I think all SMG's had pistol bullets, its just that the MP40 was reliable and for an SMG accurate.

The only one I questioned was the 1911. In combat the most important thing is that when you pull the trigger you need to know that it will go bang, and something nasty comes out of the business end. For this I almost chose a revolver over the Colt 1911, but the extra capacity won me over.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 16, 2005)

> The Carbine is 5.56mm, which isn't a "pistol bullet".



It was actually 7.62mm, maybe you're thinking of the Ruger Mini-14?

Here is info and a pic of the bullet next to a 5.56 round:

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl08-e.htm

It was worse than a .45 ACP IMHO, but had its uses (like the Colt M4A1/Commando, only worse)

Yes, the Garand was reliable, I'll give it that.



> The Thompson was hard to control with a definate swing.



Its not that bad accuracy-wise, heavy and noisy though...



> The SMLE was the best bolt action rifle but the Semi Automatic was a massive improvement for combat.



The 'mad minute' gave it a higher RoF than the Garand! 8) 



> In a hand to hand situation the bolt action was not viable, you had one shot and then the only real alternative was to hit them with it.



Or give them 18 inches of steel!  



> I prefer the carbine for its magazine capacity and the lack of combat limitations over the M1.



Thats partly why I like the M1928A1 over the M1A1 'Tommy'.



> I think all SMG's had pistol bullets



Your absolutely right, the M1 Carbine, Mauser Schnellfeur and modern Colt M4A1/Commando are debatable though...



> the MP40 was reliable and for an SMG accurate.



Yes, but the PPSh41 beats it on those points, the Tommy matches it. I wouldn't say it was that accurate IMHO, in fact only really the Sten was worse?



> For this I almost chose a revolver over the Colt 1911, but the extra capacity won me over.



Yes, good point, but the Colt is built like an AK-47, it will work every time!  

Also, save for WW1 Webleys Chinese Schnellfeurs, it was the most powerful sidearm and those 2 weren't that reliable.

Not too accurate or comfortable, but that didn't matter point-blank!

It can jump out your hand or injure it though.


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## plan_D (Sep 16, 2005)

The M1 Carbine was not a SMG. It had no automatic fire capability! The PPSh41 wasn't as accurate as the MP40, the MP40 had little barrel lift, even in sustained fire. In fact, the only problem with the MP40 was over-heating the barrel.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 16, 2005)

> The M1 Carbine was not a SMG. It had no automatic fire capability!



Funnily enough a few semi-Auto's are considered SMG's   , if it helps, it confuses me too!  



> The PPSh41 wasn't as accurate as the MP40, the MP40 had little barrel lift, even in sustained fire.



No it wasn't as good as legend makes out, it was fairly unreliable and innacurate unlike in Hollywood, dual-wielding was also a no-no!  

I'm probably making it out worse than it was, like the Garand; good - but not great.

Another example of this is the Luger P08, why the myths??

You're right, can burn your hands on the bugger! (as you can with the Stg44) still in use in Crete I think!


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## plan_D (Sep 16, 2005)

What are these semi-automatics that are SMGs?


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 16, 2005)

Mauser 'Bolo', Luger Artillery, Beretta M93R and HK53/G36 Kommando etc.

Though it's no bother to me if you say pistol or rifle, you'd still be right(ish). Even a pistol is a rifle!  

BTW: There is even a Colt (M16/AR-15) Pistol - as in handgun!


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## plan_D (Sep 16, 2005)

What are you going on about? SMG means sub-machine gun, it has to automatic. The Bolo was a pistol, the G36 is an assault rifle, the Beretta M93R is a pistol. 

None of which were SMGs. As well as the M1 Carbine not being a SMG. The M1 Carbine is a self-loading rifle.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 16, 2005)

Yeah he is confusing me now too.


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## Glider (Sep 16, 2005)

As the one who mentioned the M1 Carbine, I should point out that I treated it as a rifle in my list. Plan D is correct, as far as WW2 is concerned, an SMG is an automatic weapon with a pistol based round.

I suggest that we stick to WW2 weapons for this thread.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 16, 2005)

Agreed but that is why I was confused about what schwarzpanzer was saying.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 17, 2005)

Even I'm confused Der Adler!  



> I suggest that we stick to WW2 weapons for this thread.



Good point Glider, I was just trying to explain.

This page says it all:

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl08-e.htm

It was made to replace handguns, not rifles and was intended for that role.

The modern PDW (Personal Defense Weapon) designation is appropriate.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 17, 2005)

Um it shows a M-1 Gerand.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 17, 2005)

It shouldn't do!

This should be the Garand?:

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl05-e.htm

A good quote from that page is 



> The M2 modification, which had a select-fire capability and a magazines of larger capacity (30 rounds, interchangeable with the older 15-round ones), could be described as an "almost an assault rifle" ("almost" is added due to the lack of effective range). Had Americans a little trouble to soup it up slightly in the terms of power and range, they could have a true assault rifle 20 years before they actually did, and probably with much less headache.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 17, 2005)

OOPs my bad. I looked at it wrong.


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## plan_D (Sep 18, 2005)

"Quote: 
I think all SMG's had pistol bullets 


Your absolutely right, the M1 Carbine,"

The quote is from Glider, the reply from Schwarz. The M1 Carbine wasn't a SMG. The M1 Carbine was a self-loading rifle.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 20, 2005)

Yes, but it was a replacement for service pistols and had the range of an SMG.

It actually fired a pistol-type bullet  - from a rifle-type cartridge  

It is a PDW, the closest to that designation being an SMG in WW2.

It was also used in lieu of 'Tommys' and 'Greasers'.

People here seem to be confusing it with the almost identical 5.56mm Mini-14, which is a rifle.

*PlanD said:*



> The Thompson is .45 cal - that's a "pistol bullet". The Carbine is 5.56mm, which isn't a "pistol bullet".



The M1 Carbine was certainly not 5.56mm!


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 20, 2005)

The M1 carbine was not capable of automatic fire. It wasn't an SMG. It was considered just what the name suggests: a carbine. That is, a short rifle. Regardless of the fact that the ammunition was closer to pistol ammo than rifle ammo, it was not an SMG. Call it a long pistol if you like, but not a sub-machine gun. Also, as far as I know, for a weapon to be classed as a PDW it must also be capable of automatic fire.

The M2 modification could probably be considered a PDW by today's jargon, but make the distinction between that and the original M1 semi-auto only version.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 21, 2005)

Yes I must admit if I had to put it anywhere now, it would be in the rifles section.

Carbine - perfect!

I think it was the only weapon of it's type?

In M1 form it was only accurate to 100m, lethal to about 50m in most (WW2) cases.

Also, it had about half the muzzle velocity of the PPSh41.

However I have seen a piece of info with:

"stocked Mauser Luger Carbine SMG's)"

The Beretta M9 is also called 'Automatic', even though it is single-shot or semi-auto.

As is the SPAS12.

Also the Villa-perosa is a semi-auto SMG IIRC?

- Maybe it's because I'm thinking Italian??

The Minigun is also even classed by some as manual-operation!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 23, 2005)

schwarzpanzer said:


> The Beretta M9 is also called 'Automatic', even though it is single-shot or semi-auto.



No it is not. The Baretta M9 is my primary weapon as a Helicopter Crewmember and it is classified as Semi-Auto. Atleast in the US Army it is. I really dont like the Gun. It has shitty stopping power and atleast ours (probably because they are so old) dont fire very well. The laser sights that we put on them are great to play around with though!


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## CharlesBronson (Sep 23, 2005)

> Yes I must admit if I had to put it anywhere now, it would be in the rifles section.



And I must admit that you are the classic case of the virus call *"Compulsive Topic Opener"* wich attack and destroys several forums around the world...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 24, 2005)

There is no problem opening new topics.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 25, 2005)

Thanks DerAdler, I thought there was a problem there?

I don't want to crash the site!  

The laser sights that we put on them are great to play around with though!

You don't shine them in bus drivers eyes do you?

(UK chav craze  )

Why does everyone diss the M9??

(It's my fave hangun BTW.)

I suppose the HK USP .45 would be better?

Or a DE.50AE!! 8) 

Anyway, I wondered what the army called them, I knew the M9 but the cops call it an M92FS or 'Auto'. Maybe a misnomer?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 25, 2005)

schwarzpanzer said:


> You don't shine them in bus drivers eyes do you?



No just at other shiney objects to make disco ball effects and at desert foxes.



schwarzpanzer said:


> Why does everyone diss the M9??



Because I actually use it on a regular basis, shoot it about twice a month, and have taken it to war and back and I think it is piece of crap and would trade it in for .45 anyday.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 25, 2005)

Yeah the M9's weird, but you get used to it?

It looks cool too!  

A .45 would be very tiring and hard to train, but then again the M9 is weird to grip (unless I've got weird hands?  )

The Calico M950 has to be the best 9mm handgun 8)


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 26, 2005)

No the M-9 is just crap. I dont know anyone who really uses it on a regular basis that likes it. I know one in my unit including myself likes it. It is not wiered it is just crap.

The .45 is a much better gun and a lot more stopping power.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 26, 2005)

So, is it just the 9mm that you don't like?

A few people in the forces say this  

They can be found in .40 calibre IIRC?

Clled the M96 IIRC?

Some people even think the .357 isn't enough.  

What are your thoughts on the 5.56mm NATO DerAdler?

You're views are very interesting, cheers!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 27, 2005)

No I just dont like the M9 Baretta! It sucks!

My thoughts on the 5.56mm hmmmm lets see. I dont know I dont have a real opinion of it because I dont use it. It is not my primary weapon. I use a M9 Baretta for self defence and I use a M-60D which is 7.62mm as my door gun from my helicopter. So I dont have much experience with the M-16 or the M-4. My unit does have M-4's though and I shot about 60 rounds at a paper target for the hell of it the other day but my only real experience with the M-16/M-4 is in Basic Training. I have heard from a lot of people that use it like the Infantry they would rather have 7.62 because it has better stopping power but I have no real opinion.


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## Glider (Sep 27, 2005)

Its a close debate. I was looking at an Australin website a few weeks ago and the debate was between the SLR and the M16 as they used both in Vietnam.
You could basically say it was a draw with some for the M16 and others for the SLR. The natural shots tended to go for the SLR and the rest the M16. 
The best example of a natural shot was a demo done by of all people a pay clerk. Using the SLR he fired from the hip at a metal dish and hit it every time. What was really impressive was when he fired the last shot in the mag, he changed mags and continued firing before the dish stopped moving. 
Turned out he had done two tours in Vietnam often as point and his nerves were gone in a combat zone. But he could do the desk work and demo the SLR.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 27, 2005)

Metal dishes were obviously no problem. 

I've fired both, and I must admit I was actually a better shot at the range with the SLR (or C1, same thing.). The 7.62mm obviously gives greater accuracy at long range than the 5.56 but of course the M-16 is easier to handle, being lighter and shorter. It's also a hell of a lot easier to disassemble and clean, which is a nice plus.


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## Glider (Sep 27, 2005)

If you can survive two tours mainly on point, then I suggest nothing else is to much of a problem either.

Of the two I have only fired the SLR. However I was a little young at the time and to be honest, apart from prone, it was a bit too much for me.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 27, 2005)

I was joking about the dishes. I do that sometimes. Bad habit.


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## Glider (Sep 27, 2005)

I know you were.


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## Medvedya (Sep 27, 2005)

I know I'm somewhat biased in the way C.C is to all things Italian, but I'm astonished that nobody has mentioned the PPSh 41. 

Coming in with a cyclic rate of 900 rpm and a big fat drum of 71 or curved mag of 35 7.62 rounds, you could also interchange it with the .30 Mauser bullet. 

Cheap and simple to make, and you could show a 5 year old how to strip and reassemble it. 

In short, when you absolutely, positively, have to empty a room of unwanted guests in under 5 seconds, then it's yer boy.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 27, 2005)

I was never impressed with the 5.56 or the M-16.... As a SEAL, most of our situations were short range.... I preferred the MP5 over the M-16.... "Unofficially", I carried an AK-47 more than I did any other weapon, excluding the stubby 12 gauge I cut down... 

Funny thing about usin a weapon that the enemy uses... Theres always spare ammo around...

I do like the SLR over the M-16, but the new M-4A1 series has many uses the M-16 couldnt task out easily.... Some of my buddies like the M-4 SOPMOD package more so than any other weapon....

I still dont think the 5.56mm round has enough stopping power for close quarter drill.....


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 27, 2005)

Just out of curiosity les, how does the AK-47 compare to the SLR? I mean I imagine it's probably not quite as awkward, where the SLR has such a long barrel, but is it tougher, more accurate, less accurate (probably a bit less)? Those sorts of things. It looks pretty robust. 
Obviously I've never handled one. Not even at the range.


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## lesofprimus (Sep 27, 2005)

The SLR is a fine weapon and probably a better weapon... But my AK never jammed, never misfired, never let me down... Not quite as accurate as the SLR at distance, but in close, the AK matched it.... I could go swimming with it and crawl through the surf, and never worried about it not functioning properly....

It could take much more punishment than any other weapon I used with any sort of frequency.... I wouldnt want to drop my SLR from 25 feet.... I could care less if I dropped my AK...


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 27, 2005)

Right on.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Sep 28, 2005)

She may be old but I love my trusty M-60D. They are telling me though that very soon I am a getting 240G. I dont know if I want to trade. Maybe if I get to fire it at aerial gunnery next month I might change my mind. My M-60D never let me down though, she is a great gun.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 28, 2005)

That's weird, I thought you'd have the G3A3 or the G36 DerAdler?

I've heard baad things about the M60 (for infantry use), the MG3 is a lot better apparently. 8) 

I suppose the M60 is like the MG34 then, fine in a vehicle?

You should like the 240G, the SAS seem to love it!

The M60 makes a great noise though! 8) 

*SLR vs M16:*



> It's also a hell of a lot easier to disassemble and clean, which is a nice plus.



You're kidding me??  



> I still dont think the 5.56mm round has enough stopping power for close quarter drill.....



I heard the non-NATO (SS109) 5.56 is great close range.




> how does the AK-47 compare to the SLR?



From what I've heard the SLR = 800m range (I know a sniper who used this weapon) the AK about 400m.




> I'm astonished that nobody has mentioned the PPSh 41.



It's loud and has a huge flash, but is accurate and has a high muzzle velocity.

It's very low lethality is a big negative point.

The Thompson M1928A1 is great there; 800rpm, accurate and holds 20, 50 or even 100 .45's! 8)


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## Glider (Sep 28, 2005)

Schwar
Sorry but you would be lucky to hit the target at 800m with an SLR. Thee is a good reason why the SLR wasn't used as a snipers rifle by the British. It was because there were better rifles for that job. The effective range for an SLR was around 600m and that took a well trained person to achieve that as the iron sights were not accurate at that range.

DerAlder. You may be interested to know that the US Army tested the FN rifle in the late 50's but decided that the M14 was a better weapon. At the time most people suspected that the NIH syndrome had cut in.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 28, 2005)

Well, he was a succesful sniper (or sharpshooter?) and that's what he used!

There were SUIT (Trilux) sights and I heard that SUSAT sights were tried on a few.

I think he might have had a telescopic, I don't like asking anything like that though.


There were a few tricks with the SLR, captured Argentinian ones had folding stocks and it could take the L4 (Bren) 30-round magazine. 8) 




> NIH syndrome



Sorry, what is that? Is it the 'not made here' thing?

The M14 wasn't that bad really? Neither was the SMLE/No.4 IMHO. 8)


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## Glider (Sep 29, 2005)

I am not qualified to say how good or bad the M14 was. I do know that the FN was bought by a large number of countries (I think it was 72) and was built in a number of others. The M14 wasn't built in any other country (to the best of my knowledge) and was given away in military assistance programmes. That alone is a strong indication as to which was better. Due to this I believe that the USA made the wrong call in choosing the M14 over the FN in the early 50's.
Finally when the M14 went into action it was found wanting in a number of respects and was replaced by the M16. Whereas the FN lasted a lot longer in production and service across the world. 
As you know the British and the Argentines both used the FN/SLR in the early 80's eighteen years after the M14 had been taken out of production. 

NIH = Not Invented Here. Often found in land to the West of the Atlantic. Tends to break out when money is involved. 
Prime Example Concorde. USA like other countries decide to build similar aircraft. USA cannot do it, and suddenly decide that noise is an issue. Only recorded time when Republican congressmen decide that an environmental issue is important. Does anyone seriously believe that if Concorde had been built by Boeing that noise pollution would have become an issue.


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## schwarzpanzer (Sep 29, 2005)

I suppose for soldiers trained to use the Garand, the M14 made sense?

Besides IIRC it used a lot of the Garands tooling in it's manufacture?

I think the Hk G3 maybe better than the FN?

- It was also popular.



> Finally when the M14 went into action it was found wanting in a number of respects and was replaced by the M16.



Yes but the M16 was full auto, no competitor other than the AK?

The StG44 was used in Africa for a while and was reportedly favoured over the AK SLR!



> As you know the British and the Argentines both used the FN/SLR in the early 80's eighteen years after the M14 had been taken out of production.



Yes but there were never enough M16's (and those were unreliable) and as for the SA80, well...  



> NIH = Not Invented Here.



Cheers Glider, I wasn't far off!  

I don't know why they bother, the Garand was Canadian, the M9-Italian, the Mk23 MP5-German, the L105mm-UK etc...  

I understand the M14 point though (above)



> USA cannot do it, and suddenly decide that noise is an issue



Obviously jealous  , better than the French though; they disallowed Mini Cooper Rally win due to 'too many lights'  



> Does anyone seriously believe that if Concorde had been built by Boeing that noise pollution would have become an issue.



It was in England, flying supersonic over land was eventually banned.


Have you seen that new low-noise passenger jet concept from Cambridge University Glider?

I don't usually like modern British designs, much less ones from Uni, but this seems excellent! 8)


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## Soren (Sep 29, 2005)

Bolt action rifle: 
The Enfield Mk.4, because it carries 10 rounds and was atleast as accurate as any other rifle with open sights out to 500y. (Second would be the K98k simply because of its great accuracy and reliabillity)

Semi automatic rifle: 
M1 Garrand, cause it was reliable and accurate.

Assault rifle:
The STG-44, as it was reliable, accurate at medium ranges, and fast firing.

Sniper rifle:
Karabiner 98K with 6X zoom ZF scope, the most accurate rifle to see service during ww2. 

SMG:
Thompson "Tommygun", the best quality SMG of ww2 while reliable and fast firing.

LMG
Bren gun, as it was reliable, accurate, and featured good sized clips. 

MG:
MG42, very reliable, accurate on tripod, and very fast firing. (1500-1800rpm)


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## Glider (Sep 30, 2005)

The only ones I would disagree with are 
The Sniper Rifle where the LEE Enfield 4 I believe to have the edge.
I don't like the Thompson as it had a problem with the mussle rising and the mag was on the small side.


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## Soren (Sep 30, 2005)

Glider said:


> The only ones I would disagree with are
> The Sniper Rifle where the LEE Enfield 4 I believe to have the edge.



I don't see how, as the ZF scope on the K98k has better magnifying abillity and was of better quality than its British counterpart. 

The K98k was also in itself a more accurate rifle than the LEE Enfield 4, firing a 200gr boat-tailed IS projectile at a MV of 2,624 fps, whereas the Enfield Mk.4 would propel its 170gr boat-tailed projectile at a MV of 2,444 fps. (The popular 2,477 fps figure for the German IS round originates from pre-war underpowered commercial 8mm Winchester ammunition)

And as we both know, the velocity and weight of the projectile is top priority in achieving accuracy.




Glider said:


> I don't like the Thompson as it had a problem with the mussle rising and the mag was on the small side.



Well I did say "Tommygun", which refers to the model some British and Australian units carried, and 'It' featured a 50-100 round drum aswell as a muzzle gas regulator.


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## Nonskimmer (Sep 30, 2005)

The term "Tommy gun" refers to Thompson sub-machine guns of all models, right from the M1921 to the M1A1, be they .45 calibre or 9mm. They were used by some Canadian units too. Mostly the M1928 model I believe. In addition to the various sized drum magazines, there were 20 and 30 round box magazines available as well. It seemed that the British, Australian, and Canadian troops who used them initially opted for the 20 round mags, for whatever reason. Perhaps they were the only size available at that time? I don't really know.


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## Soren (Sep 30, 2005)

Nonskimmer said:


> The term "Tommy gun" refers to Thompson sub-machine guns of all models. .



Normally when talking to gun-enthusiasts, the term "Tommygun" makes them think "M1928-A1", as this was the first model to be handed this name. (Thats my experience atleast)

However your right, I should have been more specific and written M1928-A1 instead.



Nonskimmer said:


> They were used by some Canadian units too.



Yes your right, I forgot the Canadian units.



> In addition to the various sized drum magazines, there were 20 and 30 round box magazines available as well. It seemed that the British, Australian, and Canadian troops who used them initially opted for the 20 round mags, for whatever reason. Perhaps they were the only size available at that time? I don't really know



According to what I've heard the 30 round drum was the normal pick, however this will obviously vary from man to man. And I don't specifically know how many 20 round drums where handed out to the units compared to 30 or 50 round drums, so...


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## Glider (Oct 1, 2005)

Sorren The British started with the drum mag's for the Thompson as we wanted maximum firepower for the squad. Howeve they were soon dropped as the rounds rattled around inside the drum and you could be heard from some distance.
The K98 wasn't more accurate than the sniper versions of the Lee Enfield 4, and its a popular misconception that the weight of the bullet and mv is top priority in accuracy. There are a number of other factors of equal importance.
The Lee Enfield stayed in service until the 1980's as the British snipers rifle and in civilian long range shooting competitions only started to be replaced in the 90's with free floating designs.
Amongst collectors the Mk 4 sniper is seen as a classic design and good examples cost a serious amount of money.
As recently as 2000 there was a shooting competition at Bisley on the long ranges out to 1.200 yards. Militery teams from the NATO armies took part as did a team of civilians using the Lee Enfield. The civilain team came fifth out of I think it was nine teams. The accuracy of the Lee Enfield is in no doubt.


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## schwarzpanzer (Oct 1, 2005)

> *Glider wrote: *
> 
> I don't like the Thompson as it had a problem with the mussle rising and the mag was on the small side.
> 
> ...



Yep, also had the Cutts Compensator and is pretty accurate - some SWAT were using them in the '80's!!



> The term "Tommy gun" refers to Thompson sub-machine guns of all models



It is also called "The Chicago Typewriter" among others.



> be they .45 calibre or 9mm.



Some Tommy's (civilian) were in rifle calibre, though I didn't know about 9mm, you don't mean the M3A1 do you NS?

- I'm not patronising BTW.



> They were used by some Canadian units too.



And Germans! - there's footage (in Crete IIRC?) of Fallschirmjager using Tommy's Brens.



> Mostly the M1928 model I believe.



Yep!  



> According to what I've heard the 30 round drum was the normal pick, however this will obviously vary from man to man.



The M1928A1 could not take the 30 round box, the M1A1 could take the older 20 round box, but not the drums.



> The K98 wasn't more accurate than the sniper versions of the Lee Enfield 4



It is in a wind tunnel, also the muzzle 'climbs' a lot less.

I'd have the No4 though. 8) 



> Sorren The British started with the drum mag's for the Thompson as we wanted maximum firepower for the squad. Howeve they were soon dropped as the rounds rattled around inside the drum and you could be heard from some distance.



Yes but they were back in use for D-Day.


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## Soren (Oct 1, 2005)

> The K98 wasn't more accurate than the sniper versions of the Lee Enfield 4,



The hand picked Karabiner 98 sniper-rifle with the 6X ZF scope is more accurate than the hand-picked Lee Enfield Mk.4 sniper-rifle, yes. The German snipers also had the advantage of being able to fire high powered specialized ammunition from their rifles, the British snipers did not. 



> and its a popular misconception that the weight of the bullet and mv is top priority in accuracy.



Those are two of the most important factors.



> There are a number of other factors of equal importance.



Yes, and the K98 holds all the advantages there as-well. (Ballisticly at-least)

The 7.92mm projectile for one is ballisticly a superior projectile than the 7.7mm projectile. 



> The Lee Enfield stayed in service until the 1980's as the British snipers rifle and in civilian long range shooting competitions only started to be replaced in the 90's with free floating designs.



Yes, but the K98 is still in service today  

The Isreali's still use the K98 as a sniper rifle and with great succes.

Also if Germany hadn't lost the war, you can be sure the K98 would have been used much more extensively during the pre-war years than it already has been, and that means a whole lot more than the Enfield. 

The K98 simply has had much bigger impact on modern bolt action rifles than the Enfield has. 



> Amongst collectors the Mk 4 sniper is seen as a classic design and good examples cost a serious amount of money.



Sure you can find some expensive Enfield's out there, but none as expensive as a SS stamped K98 sniper rifle, as they are simply alot more worth.



> As recently as 2000 there was a shooting competition at Bisley on the long ranges out to 1.200 yards. Militery teams from the NATO armies took part as did a team of civilians using the Lee Enfield. The civilain team came fifth out of I think it was nine teams. The accuracy of the Lee Enfield is in no doubt.



The accuracy of the Enfield is great, no doubt about it, but the K98's is better, might not be much but its better. And its no surprise, cause the K98's ammunition is more accurate as-well.

Its all about picking the right ammunition, as there's a heck of alot of crappy underpowered commercial 8mm ammunition out there.


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## Soren (Oct 1, 2005)

Schwartspanzer said:


> The M1928A1 could not take the 30 round box,



No, the M1928A-1 could take both the 20 and 30 round mag, as-well as the 50-100 round drums. 



Schwartspanzer said:


> *the M1A1 could take the older 20 round box*, but not the drums.



Yes, as-well as the 30 round mag.


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## Nonskimmer (Oct 1, 2005)

schwarzpanzer said:


> Some Tommy's (civilian) were in rifle calibre, though I didn't know about 9mm, you don't mean the M3A1 do you NS?
> 
> - I'm not patronising BTW.


No, I mean Tommy Guns. Some FBI and law enforcement examples were calibred in 9mm, but I can't track down the exact designation. They may have been converted M1921's. Not sure, but it seems likely. I'm not talking about the recently produced long barreled semi-automatic reproductions by Colt either.

Which ones were in rifle calibre, and who used them? Only civilians? I'm just curious. I can't find any info on them.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 2, 2005)

schwarzpanzer said:


> That's weird, I thought you'd have the G3A3 or the G36 DerAdler?
> 
> I've heard baad things about the M60 (for infantry use), the MG3 is a lot better apparently. 8)
> 
> ...



Im in the US Army not in the German Army.  The US Army does not used the G-36 or the G3A3.

The problem with the M-60 for infantry use is that it is heavy and that is why it was replaced by the SAW for them. However as a door gun for my Blackhawk it is perfect and works great. It does not have a regular sight but rather a circular sight used for supression from the helicoper and therefore it does not have to be dead accurate. Just get there heads down and suprress them so the ground pounders can get out.


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## schwarzpanzer (Oct 2, 2005)

> Quote:
> and its a popular misconception that the weight of the bullet and mv is top priority in accuracy.





Soren said:


> Those are two of the most important factors.



Within reason, the most important factor is the sniper himself, reliability of the weapon is also an issue though the quality (within reason) isn't.  

A Mosin-Nagant or Springfield is as good as a Kar98K for a sniper.

The best IMHO is the Boys-type snipers. 8) 



> Yes, but the K98 is still in service today



So is the Enfield, I think? (Pakistan)



> The K98 simply has had much bigger impact on modern bolt action rifles than the Enfield has.



Maybe? - but now all sniper rifles hold 10 rounds etc...



> Sure you can find some expensive Enfield's out there, but none as expensive as a SS stamped K98 sniper rifle, as they are simply alot more worth.



That's just the rarity value?



> No, the M1928A-1 could take both the 20 and 30 round mag, as-well as the 50-100 round drums.



You might be right there.



me said:


> the M1A1 could take the older 20 round box, but not the drums.





> Yes, as-well as the 30 round mag.



Correct.



NS said:


> Some FBI and law enforcement examples were calibred in 9mm, but I can't track down the exact designation.



Cheers  , the SWAT ones may have been 9mm...



> I'm not talking about the recently produced long barreled semi-automatic reproductions by Colt either.



I might get one of those one day 8) ...WW2 barrel length, semi-auto though.



> Which ones were in rifle calibre, and who used them? Only civilians? I'm just curious. I can't find any info on them.



Not sure of the exact details, but I'm pretty sure they were all civilian (or crim!)

BSA (of the UK) also built a load pre-WW2, I think some were sold on the civvy market in rifle-calibre too, not sure though.  

I can get a books details with some info on it? - no more than I've given though, sorry.



DerAdler said:


> Im in the US Army not in the German Army.



 



> The US Army does not use the G-36



Funny you should mention that, the UK and US are considering replacing the SA80 and M16 for G36's! 

-please, please, please, pleease?  



> The problem with the M-60 for infantry use is that it is heavy



Yeah, 'the pig'  

What I know about the M60 is that it has a slow RoF, is unreliable and 
- this is scary, keeps firing for a while after you let go of the trigger!  

You can also easily burn your hands on the barrel too, the Bren was good there. Headspace adjustment is either easy or difficult? - I forget.

Theres a few other negatives too I think...

I don't think they matter for vehicle use though?

Hey, d'ya think you can ask for a M134 Minigun?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 3, 2005)

The US will not replace the M-16/M-4 with the G36. They have already found there replacement for it and it is the XM-8 Rifle. It has already been tested and is on its way to approval.



> The XM8 Future Combat Rifle is intended to replace existing M4 Carbines and select 5.56mm x45 weapons in the US Army arsenal beginning as early as the fourth quarter of FY05.
> 
> In October 2002 ATK (Alliant Techsystems) was awarded a $5 million contract modification from the U.S. Army Armament Research, Development, and Engineering Center (ARDEC), Picatinny, N.J., to develop the new XM8 Lightweight Assault Rifle. ATK Integrated Defense, Plymouth, Minn., and teammate Heckler and Koch, Oberndorf, Germany, will support the rapid development program, which will investigate the potential of the XM8 as the lightweight assault rifle for the Army's Objective Force.
> 
> ...


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## Glider (Oct 3, 2005)

Impressive. maybe we should hang on to the SA80 while the inevitable bugs are wrung out of the initial version. I like the rod replacement for the gas and that its for both left and right handed people.


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## Nonskimmer (Oct 3, 2005)

I thought the MoD had already planned to start replacing the SA80 with the G36 in the British forces by next year. I have absolutely no experience with either rifle, but some old British mates of mine didn't have very kind things to say about the SA80. Mind you, they both left the British Army about twelve years ago, so they wouldn't have had experience with any improvements that may have been made to it since then.


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## Glider (Oct 3, 2005)

I have two cousins in the Army and they like the latest version of the SA80. I have also heard that the Army are planning to purchase the G36, but there is a huge difference between Planning and Purchasing with the current goverment.
However now that the SA80 seems to be as good as most I was thinking that we may as well hang onto them and look at the XM8.


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## schwarzpanzer (Oct 3, 2005)

The XM-8 (will be known as M8 in US service) is based on the G36 (which is based on the M16).

Another one of those NIH things?

I'd have the G36 IMHO (for the folding stock)


The SA80? Silks purse, sow's ear IMHO.

Even the INSAS is better!  

I'd say the SA80 is the MG/Rover of the AR world!  


The Steyr AUG has to be the best 5.56mm? - pity it can't take STANAG mags, or can it?


The EM2 was tested in Russia and found to be better than the AKM and FN FAL/SLR. 8) 

It's a pity the USA pushed it's 7.62mm so hard  , the 7.7mm was better IMO.

Politics never gets in the way of Russian designs:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as34-e.htm

- Replacement for the AK?

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as08-e.htm

- Best AR in the world? More-than-Western thinking in a Russian design!

I'd like to see these in bullpup config.

One rare good thing about the SA80 is it's FG42-alike mechanism, but IMHO it is much better to have 2 choices?


A point is that composites are great for lightweight ammo, it's about time someone realised that!

However, when is Hydroform steel going to be used for bodies? 

- come on weapon designers!


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## Glider (Oct 3, 2005)

Well we will have to agree to disagree over the latest version of the SA80. I would point out that I am close to my two cousins and they know what works and what doesn't. 
One of them got into trouble in the first Gulf War for 'aquiring' M16's for his unit because of the unreliability of the earlier SA80's. In the second Gulf War he was more than happy with the current version, which he finds accurate and reliable.
You will of course hear different things from different people but that is the only first hand experience that I have.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 4, 2005)

The XM-8 is based off a HK design. I believe it is made by them too.


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## Soren (Oct 4, 2005)

Schwartzpanzer said:


> Within reason, the most important factor is the sniper himself,* reliability of the weapon is also an issue though the quality (within reason) isn't.*



When you trying to hit a mans head over 600 yards away it is ! And the K98k sniper-rifle is by far the better at that.



> A Mosin-Nagant or Springfield is as good as a Kar98K for a sniper



For Urban fighting, maybe, but for long range fighting the K98k outshoots them both.



Schwartzpanzer said:


> So is the Enfield, I think? (Pakistan)



Pakistan forces field the K98k as-well.  



Schwartzpanzer said:


> Maybe? - but now all sniper rifles hold 10 rounds etc...



No, most bolt-action sniper-rifle's still holds 5 rounds. The M40 for example.



Schwartzpanzer said:


> That's just the rarity value?



And the quality value, as-well as the historical value etc etc..


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## plan_D (Oct 4, 2005)

The XM-8 is the U.S H&K version of the H&K G-36 - there's different design teams but it's the same company. The U.K government has been set to replace the SA80 with the G-36 for a long time the date was set for next year but as Glider says, what is planned and what is purchased is something completely different.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 5, 2005)

It will be interesting to see what comes out of it.


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