# Who's the daddy?



## Colin1 (May 13, 2009)

Colonial CF-SF-12 Viper *:Name:* Incom T-65 X-Wing
Superiority Fighter and Interceptor *:Class:* Superiority Fighter and Escort
1 *:Crew:* 1 (+1 R2 unit - astromech)
29.71ft (9.05 metres) *:Length:* 41ft (12.5 metres)
13.2ft (4.02 metres) *:Height:* 8ft (2.48 metres)
19.5ft (5.95 metres) *:Wingspan:* 38ft (11.5 metres)
14.2 tons (12,849Kgs) *:Weight (unloaded):* 15 tons (13,600Kgs)
Reinforced composite armour mesh hull *:Construction: *Titanium alloy hull
3 x turbo thrust engines *:Engines: *4 x fusial thrust engines
Not applicable *:Hyperdrive Rating:* Class 1
40% of speed of light *:Maximum Speed (Space):* 40% of speed of light; 60 light years per hour (hyperdrive only)
Mach 8 (+escape velocity Mach 32.6) *:Maximum Speed (Atmosphere):* Mach 7.5 (+escape velocity Mach 32.6)
11.25g *:Maximum acceleration:* 9.0g
312 hours *:Endurance (non-combat): *360 hours
Not applicable *:Shielding:* Novaldex 04-Z onboard generator
3 x kinetic energy cannons; 1 x ventral missile launcher (8 capacity) *:Armament:* 4 x laser energy cannons; 2 x ventral proton torpedo launchers (6 capacity). No weapons capability during hyperdrive jump.
4,000ft (1,200m) atmosphere; 32,000ft (9,200m) space *:Weapons range (cannons):* 4,000ft (1,200m) atmosphere; 32,000ft (9,200m) space
8,000 miles (12,875Km) atmosphere; 4,000,000 miles (6,437,376Km) space *:Weapons range (torpedoes/missiles):* 3,400 miles (5,740Km) atmosphere; 1,800,000 miles (2,897,000Km) space
13 days *:Crew consumables:* 21 days


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## lesofprimus (May 13, 2009)

The X-Wing has got it all over the Viper... Having a Hyperdrive alone is the deciding factor, let alone all the other things in its favor.......


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## Colin1 (May 13, 2009)

lesofprimus said:


> The X-Wing has got it all over the Viper... Having a Hyperdrive alone is the deciding factor, let alone all the other things in its favor.......


Yep
the Viper's toast, the X-Wing can buzz in and out of the fight as he pleases, not that he'd want to buzz out - kinetic energy weapons vs shields?

C'mon the rest of you - don't pretend you never wondered


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## Von Frag (May 13, 2009)

Heh I remember the Air Force was thinking about calling the F-16 the Viper until Battlestar Galactica came out.


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## gumbyk (May 13, 2009)

Gotta agree,
Although the viper would have it in the maneuverability stakes, its kinda the space equivalent of the Zero.


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## vikingBerserker (May 13, 2009)

Please forgive me Col Deering (DEEP SIGH)

X-Wing


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## Vassili Zaitzev (May 13, 2009)

I only voted for the Viper because it's one of my favorite spacecraft. Gotta agree with the rest though, the X-wing outclasses the Viper in every category, except for manuverability.


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## Njaco (May 13, 2009)

I voted for the Romulan Battle Cruiser. Can't hit what you can't see!


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## BombTaxi (May 13, 2009)

It's clearly the X-Wing folks. Although if you threw a Starfury into the mix I'm sure both of our contenders would be toast...


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## vikingBerserker (May 13, 2009)

Dammit, I was thinking of Buck Roger's Starfighter instead of Battlestar Galactica




]


I still vote of Col Deering


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## Freebird (May 13, 2009)

vikingBerserker said:


> Dammit, I was thinking of Buck Roger's Starfighter instead of Battlestar Galactica
> I still vote of Col Deering




That's because you were thinking with the wrong head. 




]


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## GrauGeist (May 14, 2009)

I voted for the Viper...I think in the right hands, it could deliver a serious dose of whupass. Plus I liked Battlestar Galactica (the series) more than Star Wars (original movie) when I was a kid.

Plus, if the poll included a choice between the Imperial Tai-fighter and the Cylon Raider, I'd be going with the Raider! 

Wasn't there a study by Caltech years ago that pitted the Cylon Base-star against the Imperial Deathstar? If I remember right, the Cylon's ship took out the Imperial ship because of it's firepower...that and because of it's higher mobility, it was able to keep away from the Deathstar's main weapon...


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## Marcel (May 14, 2009)

Well, I don't know: Are they both going to stall at the same time in a turn? Independent of which stalls first (hopefully inboard), will the actual stall break point be the same for high G turning flight as it proved in level flight? The 4 engine/4 wing section model is more difficult to analyze. CLmax as a function of AoA for a specific airfoil may be found in the sectional plots, then extrapolated from 2 D to 3 D by taking into effect AR and form factor it may be obtained in flight tests under controlled conditions.

Eh.... let's take the X-wing, destroyed a whole Deathstar


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## Lucky13 (May 14, 2009)

Is the X-Wing the best looking of the lot?


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## GrauGeist (May 14, 2009)

Lucky13 said:


> Is the X-Wing the best looking of the lot?


Nope, the Viper is!


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## Colin1 (May 14, 2009)

Some info updated as well as some new info

Also, the Viper's cannons will (apparently) take down the X-Wing's shields eventually. 
As a BVR platform, the Viper's got the reach on the X-Wing, in a furball it's hard to know, the X-Wing's shields at least give him some breathing space while the smaller, lighter and (slightly) faster Viper is going to be harder to hit anyway.

Edit: in the light of the new info, if a mod wants to reset the poll to zero that's fine with me


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## Njaco (May 14, 2009)

Marcel said:


> Well, I don't know: Are they both going to stall at the same time in a turn? Independent of which stalls first (hopefully inboard), will the actual stall break point be the same for high G turning flight as it proved in level flight? The 4 engine/4 wing section model is more difficult to analyze. CLmax as a function of AoA for a specific airfoil may be found in the sectional plots, then extrapolated from 2 D to 3 D by taking into effect AR and form factor it may be obtained in flight tests under controlled conditions.
> 
> Eh.... let's take the X-wing, destroyed a whole Deathstar



ummm, don't ya need gravity for stall to be a factor?


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## GrauGeist (May 14, 2009)

Also, the Viper had a number of variants.

The Mk I wasn't all that impressive, but starting with the Mk II, the firepower was upgraded along with hard-points, engines and tactical/logistics enhancements. While they weren't capable of Hyper-drive, they could achieve high sub-light speeds.

If I'm not mistaken, the last Viper version was the Mk VII?


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## Vassili Zaitzev (May 14, 2009)

Yup, the Mark VII was the lastest version. Pretty impressive, just watch out for cylon backdoors on the computer.


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## Maestro (May 15, 2009)

Njaco said:


> ummm, don't ya need gravity for stall to be a factor?



Well, technically the Death Star was creating some sort of gravity... 

I vote for the X-Wing. A great fighter... and I always liked the way it looked.


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## Colin1 (May 15, 2009)

GrauGeist said:


> Also, the Viper had a number of variants.
> 
> The Mk I wasn't all that impressive, but starting with the Mk II, the firepower was upgraded along with hard-points, engines and tactical/logistics enhancements. While they weren't capable of Hyper-drive, they could achieve high sub-light speeds.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, the last Viper version was the Mk VII?



I found a site that dealt with both fighters and sub-light speed is roughly parity for both types, the Viper is slightly faster if expressed in MGLT (whatever that is). Its missile capability is also superior to the X-Wing's in terms of quantity and range.
I forgot to look GG, aren't you a mod? Quite happy to have the poll reset if everyone wants a re-think based on the new data I found


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## Marcel (May 17, 2009)

Njaco said:


> ummm, don't ya need gravity for stall to be a factor?



Well, actually you need some gas molecules flowing over the wings as well.


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## GrauGeist (May 17, 2009)

Colin1 said:


> I found a site that dealt with both fighters and sub-light speed is roughly parity for both types, the Viper is slightly faster if expressed in MGLT (whatever that is). Its missile capability is also superior to the X-Wing's in terms of quantity and range.
> I forgot to look GG, aren't you a mod? Quite happy to have the poll reset if everyone wants a re-think based on the new data I found


There used to be a site that was the difinitive source for all things Sci-Fi. It covered all of the starships ever used in the movies, TV shows and in publication as well as the beings that built/operated them. They also published a hardbound encyclopedia as well.

Not sure what ever happened to the site, and I'm still kicking myself in the arse for not buying the book...though it was a huge volume and cost quite a few bucks...

You could PM one of the mods and see if they would reset it for you, but nope, I'm not a mod...I'm too mean


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## RabidAlien (May 18, 2009)

I saw a similar site once, that not only listed all the spacecraft, but had a powerpoint-like presentation showing relative sizes of all, starting from the smallest up to the biggest (V-Ger from StarTrek I is pretty darn big!)


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## Lucky13 (May 18, 2009)

How many here, spent hours designing their own fighters?


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## Colin1 (May 18, 2009)

Ohhhhh the Viper's clawing some reeeeespect back
I wonder how many X-Wing votees would have gone the other way if I'd found that site earlier


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## Flyboy2 (May 20, 2009)

I just think the X-wing is better all around for many different jobs.
A) It has hyperdrive
B) 4 cannons, which can be linked to any series of combinations to deliver one strong bunch or a spray of lighter fire. Also it has 12 proton torpedoes which devestate the target
C) The astromech.. Takes away alot of the pilots burden and acts as an inflight engineer.

I also think that the X-wing performs better in atmosphere because it actually has somewhat conventional wings


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## Colin1 (May 20, 2009)

Flyboy2 said:


> I just think the X-wing is better all around for many different jobs.
> A) It has hyperdrive
> B) 4 cannons, which can be linked to any series of combinations to deliver one strong bunch or a spray of lighter fire. Also it has 12 proton torpedoes which devestate the target
> C) The astromech.. Takes away alot of the pilots burden and acts as an inflight engineer.
> ...


Agree on the hyperdrive, that is a key strategic advantage but no tactical advantage whatsoever, weapons locked down during the jump
Six proton torps - every source I've referenced gives me six
Yes, the R2 unit is a spare pair of hands, useful when someone's just toasted some of your systems
Sorry, do you have anything definitive that would give the X-Wing the ascendency over the Viper in atmospheric flight? From what I found, the Viper has it, he's got the reach on the X-Wing with missile range. Nothing to suggest that one was more stable than the other in actual flight terms.

Edit: by the way you haven't voted yet


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## Negative Creep (May 20, 2009)

Lucky13 said:


> Is the X-Wing the best looking of the lot?



The X-Wing is one of my all time favourite designs period.


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## Flyboy2 (May 20, 2009)

My mistake, I was thinking six torps to each tube... I know some later versions of the X-wing carried a third tube and some were even modified for concussion missiles.



> Sorry, do you have anything definitive that would give the X-Wing the ascendency over the Viper in atmospheric flight? From what I found, the Viper has it, he's got the reach on the X-Wing with missile range. Nothing to suggest that one was more stable than the other in actual flight terms.



Right, what I am looking at is purely aerodynamic anaylsis. The X-wing actually has wings...

I think that the X-wing would win out in a dog fight. The Viper is fast and maneuverable, but the X-wing certainly has more punch and can get out of the fight at any time. In a major fleet engagement, I feel like the X-wing would do better just because it is a more rugged fighter and can do more damage


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## Flyboy2 (May 20, 2009)

Just for kicks check out this website

http://www.merzo.net/

Its a bunch of size comparisons for all sorts of science fiction space ships. Starts out with species and moves its way up... check it out


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## Colin1 (May 20, 2009)

Flyboy2 said:


> Right, what I am looking at is purely aerodynamic analysis. The X-wing actually has wings...
> 
> I think that the X-wing would win out in a dog fight. The Viper is fast and maneuverable, but the X-wing certainly has more punch and can get out of the fight at any time. In a major fleet engagement, I feel like the X-wing would do better just because it is a more rugged fighter and can do more damage


The Viper has wings too
they incorporate the cannons and do have a neater and more practical architecture to them for atmospheric combat, they would nail the X-Wing hands-down for roll rate. I wouldn't describe the X-Wing as being more rugged, those S-foils don't look like they'd take much damage and once they're shot up and deformed your cannon-targetting is screwed; the other key advantage here, apart from hyperdrive, is the X-Wing's shields.
The Viper CAN take down an X-Wing's shields so in a fleet engagement I don't see decisive tactical advantages to either type; the principal advantage that the X-Wing holds is strategic, the ability to jump a numerically overwhelming force into a numerically inferior Viper space, do the damage and then jump out before Viper reinforcements can get there. 
It forces the Viper fleet commander to keep his fleet dispersal tight which may mean surrendering territorial assets just to survive which in turn is already a victory for the X-Wing fleet commander. 
Hyperdrive also means the fight is on the Vipers' doorstep and not his.


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## Flyboy2 (May 20, 2009)

Losing an S-Foil is not that bad in space combat... All it really does is degrade the combat effectiveness due to the loss of an engine or laser. However, the generators on the X-wing can transfer to unused power to the left over engines to compensate for the loss. In order to get to the S-foils you have to get through the shields, which can be recharged using engine or laser power. Also, the shields can be manipulated to double to blocking power to the area of the fighter under attack


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## GrauGeist (May 20, 2009)

Lucky13 said:


> How many here, spent hours designing their own fighters?


Guilty!
I had some real nice stuff I created...might even have a few drawings stashed away somewhere...

As far as the Viper Mk VII, here's the specs:
*Race:* Colonial 
*Type:* Military 
*Propulsion:* 3 x turbo-thrust engines mounted aft, RCS points
*Crew:* 1 pilot in Terrell ES 24C ejection seat. 
*Role:* Space superiority fighter 
*Armament:*
3 x forward-firing kinetic energy weapons (KEW), 2 mounted towards the outboard sections of the wings, 1 mounted in the vertical stabilizer, Weapon hard-points for mounting missiles, munitions pods, etc. under the wings.
*Dimensions:*
Length 32.3 feet (~9.8 meters)
Height 9.7 feet (~3.0 meters) 
Wingspan 18.4 feet (~5.6 meters)

Also, the Mark VII, like the Mk II, is capable of 180 degree verticle rotation in .35 seconds. Also has redundant hydraulics for enhanced survivability, however, loss of both systems in atmospheric conditions is fatal.


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## GrauGeist (May 20, 2009)

More info...this time the Mk II

I really wish I had that guide that had all the data...

*Race:* Colonial 
*Type:* Military 
*Propulsion:* 1 x Voram VM2-D15 upper turbo-thrust engine, 2x Voram VM3-D22 turbo-thrust engines, 2x reverse thrust motors, RCS points
*Crew: * 1 pilot 
*Role:* Space superiority fighter
*Armament:*
2 x MEC-A6 30mm Thraxon forward-firing kinetic energy weapons (KEW) mounted in the wing roots with 800 round magazine, Dorsal storage bay for 8 x HD-70 Lightning Javelin missiles (optional 50 megaton nuclear warhead). Weapon hardpoints for mounting missiles / munitions pods, etc. under the wings 
*Dimensions:* 
Length 27.6 feet (~8.4m)
Height 8.9 feet (~2.7m)
Wingspan 15.5 feet (~4.7m) 

The Mk II was also noted to have analog gauges, including an altimeter (for atmospheric flight) that prevented Cylon electronic countermeasures to disable the onboard navigation.


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## GrauGeist (May 21, 2009)

And finally, the Original Viper.

We can see that like any war machine, there are changes and threat upgrades to match the enemy's technology, and the Viper made quite a few between the original and the MkVII.

One distinct advantage that the Viper may have over the X-Wing in a fight, is that the Viper can make immediate stops. This could prove useful against an unwary X-wing pilot by feinting a "nose-up" manouver, and then apply the full stop, forcing your enemy to over-shoot, then making the kill. Or use the "braking" and the Turbo Boost in a combination to gain a tactical advantage.

Specs:
*Race:* Colonial 
*Type:* Military 
*Propulsion:* three sublight aft-mounted engines 
*Crew: * 1 pilot 
*Role:* Space superiority fighter 
*Armament:* 2 forward-firing laser-torpedo guns 
*Dimensions:* 
Length (approx) 29 feet (8.7m) 
Width (approx) 13 feet (3.8m)


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## Messy1 (May 21, 2009)

I would have voted for the B-Wing myself, but in this case I have to go with Wedge's ride, the X-wing.


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## Colin1 (May 21, 2009)

Messy1 said:


> I would have voted for the B-Wing myself, but in this case I have to go with Wedge's ride, the X-wing.


Never liked the B-Wing
plenty of shielding and artillery but when you got sufficiently clobbered, you didn't just lose a system, everything went down


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## Flyboy2 (May 21, 2009)

Colin1 said:


> Never liked the B-Wing
> plenty of shielding and artillery but when you got sufficiently clobbered, you didn't just lose a system, everything went down



That is true.. the B-wing sure kicks butt though! That thing is loaded to the teeth.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (May 22, 2009)

I like the A-wing, it's like a zero. Weak shields though.


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## Messy1 (May 22, 2009)

Wouldn't the X-wing have the advantage as far as weapons range?


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## Colin1 (May 22, 2009)

Messy1 said:


> Wouldn't the X-wing have the advantage as far as weapons range?


Guns on
they're a match for range though I doubt the Viper could chew an X-Wing as quickly as the X-Wing could chew a Viper (shields); missile/torpedo range it goes to the Viper. In an atmospheric furball, the X-Wing looks like he'd have a hell of a time trying to nail a Viper with his guns, the Viper can very likely roll _much_ faster, is nearly a ton lighter and slightly quicker. The Viper on the other hand doesn't look like he'd have much trouble getting on the tail of an X-Wing; I think the Incom ship would need every last watt of his shields...


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