# B-47 questions.



## The Basket (Mar 18, 2009)

I have taken a fancy to the big Boeing jet and got some questions for ya.

The tandem seat and bubble canopy turned it into a big fighter! But could the pilots leave their seats and go into the fuselage...and was it dual control with the backseater?

Also the RB-47 saw real action and was even shotdown by a Soviet MiG-19. I was also wondering how its performance compared to subsonic fighters like the MiG-15 MiG-17 and F-86 Sabre. Could it outrun them or even outturn them at extreme altitudes...


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## Graeme (Mar 18, 2009)

The Basket said:


> But could the pilots leave their seats and go into the fuselage?



Good question Basket, never thought about it before. A crew of three. Pilot (26) and co-pilot (30) with the navigator/bombardier (8) in the nose. To me it looks like if they're bored they can visit each other and say "G'day" by utilising the internal walkway (16) and if they're really bored visit the cockpit air-conditioning plant (39) via the maintenance access hatch (36). Co-pilot (30) is also responsible for the tail gun and therefore must have access to the tail gunsight and firing controls (31) but I'm not certain if there is a seat there or if his just simply spins around? 

That looks about as far as the crew can travel as the nose compartment bulkhead is just aft of (31)...(I'll try and find some photos).


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 18, 2009)

The B-47 had a crawlspace between the pilot and co-pilot as shown and it had dual controls. As far as the rear guns, they were remote controlled and radar aimed so all the co-pilot had to do was look at a screen from what I under stand.


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## The Basket (Mar 18, 2009)

During the Soviet spy missions...those guns were fired at MiGs!

I remember the seat swivelled and became rear facing...and he aimed manually...I think!

I believe it outperformed the MiG 15 and could just about run away from a MiG 17.

Stuffed against a MiG 19 though.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 18, 2009)

B-47 Cockpit Section Walk Around Page 1


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## Bill G. (Mar 18, 2009)

Also, get the movie Strategic Air Command. It has some inside shots of the B-47 towards the end of the movie.

Bill G.


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## Marshall_Stack (Mar 18, 2009)

Bill G. said:


> Also, get the movie Strategic Air Command. It has some inside shots of the B-47 towards the end of the movie.
> 
> Bill G.



Along with some good B-36 footage...


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## syscom3 (Mar 18, 2009)

Here's the B47 interior "trainer" they have at the March AFB museum.


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## ONE_HELLCAT (Mar 18, 2009)

I think I remember watching an old black and white movie with the B-47 and the crew being able to move about. I mean, it's just a movie so facts a little fudged.


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## Von Frag (Mar 19, 2009)

I had a girlfriend in college who's father flew RB-47 missions over the USSR. He told me that the MiG's could get to their altitude by zoom climbing and that when they shot past them going up he could see all the control surfaces working furiously because the pilots couldn't control them. I assume these were 17's.

This guy was real interesting. He went north at the beginning of wwII, joined the RCAF. He flew Huricanes on rhubarbs, transfered to bomber command where he flew Halifaxes, then joined the USAAF where he flew P-47's. He told me between 30 and 40 thousand feet, the Germans didn't have anything that could touch a P-47 other than the 262.


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## syscom3 (Mar 19, 2009)

ONE_HELLCAT said:


> I think I remember watching an old black and white movie with the B-47 and the crew being able to move about. I mean, it's just a movie so facts a little fudged.



The mock up at the museum indicates that it is possible for the crewman to move about. But it sure wouldn't be to stretch their legs (except for the navigator who could climb the small ladder).


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## davparlr (Mar 19, 2009)

syscom3 said:


> Here's the B47 interior "trainer" they have at the March AFB museum.



Great museum. They used to allow you to go into some aircraft including a B-17, B-52, B-29, SR-71 and more, a couple of times a year. Alas, no more, AF shut that down, probably worrying about lawsuits.

I took my kids and grand kid to go through the C-141 they had there. Loved it.


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## syscom3 (Mar 20, 2009)

davparlr said:


> Great museum. They used to allow you to go into some aircraft including a B-17, B-52, B-29, SR-71 and more, a couple of times a year. Alas, no more, AF shut that down, probably worrying about lawsuits.
> 
> I took my kids and grand kid to go through the C-141 they had there. Loved it.



Also probably to prevent vandalism and unintended damage to the interiors. Some of these aircraft are priceless.


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## The Basket (Mar 20, 2009)

The crew could have been in the air for hours. So crew comfort had to be a factor.

Been stuck in a chair for 12 hours is not my idea of fun. Especially when u need the toilet.


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## Graeme (Mar 20, 2009)

The Basket said:


> Could it outrun them or even outturn them at extreme altitudes...



From what I've read Basket, possibly, or at least give them a run for their money. It could be looped and rolled and out manoeuvre "some" fighters above 20,000ft. It was capable of LABS bombing and dash speeds of up to 600mph. It could roll at 30 degrees per second at 300mph which was "unheard of for a plane its size and weight".

Lightly loaded and with RATO it "could climb faster than a F-101 Voodoo."

(By the way that navigator's seat fired downwards, 1500ft being regarded as "safe").


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## syscom3 (Mar 20, 2009)

The Basket said:


> The crew could have been in the air for hours. So crew comfort had to be a factor.
> 
> Been stuck in a chair for 12 hours is not my idea of fun. Especially when u need the toilet.



If you look at the pictures, its apparent that an average sized pilot wearing a high altitude suit, would have to move around hunched to the side. Probably better than nothing, but in no way similar to that of a B52 where you could go walk around.


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## comiso90 (Mar 20, 2009)

Looks more comfy than a TU-22 or was there a similar config?

.


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## Sweb (Mar 22, 2009)

That was the last plane my Pop flew in the USAF between 1959 and 1963. We lived on Pease AFB, New Hampshire, and heard them around the clock along with KC-97 tankers. He transfered from TAC to SAC to make rank because the then USAF Chief Of Staff - Curtis LeMay - was a proponent of bombardment so SAC got most of the available promotions. He joined SAC to make a better retirement rank and it worked. He flew the B-47E on various missions telling me he'd wiped out New York City countless times, along with other cities in the New Hampshire surrounds, and then flew what they called Reflex Missions to England. He hated those because he sat in that seat for the entire flight to and from. They'd depart in a vee flight of 3 aircraft, go to Brize Norton and stay on alert status for 2 weeks. Then they'd fly back. Some of the missions were to fly the Russian border in airborne alert from Brize Norton. But, no, there was minimal room to stretch and when flying tight vee formations they couldn't drop their guards.

I watched them take off countless times using JATO. Pretty spectacular. I was a 7 y/o kid. Being an Air Force brat come Christmas at the Family Recreation Hall they'd show a movie of Santa taxying up to park in a B-47. He'd drop down the ladder and walk across the ramp carrying his bag, smiling and waving and then the next thing you know he'd come walking into the room we were watching the movie in right on cue.

We had 3 crash on base while we lived there. One took out part of the base golf course. They shook the whole base and lit up the night sky. A few of my friends lost their Pop's and it was a sad time. SAC insisted on putting bomber pilots in the B-47 and they couldn't keep their heads out in front of the plane because it was so much faster than the B-50s they were used to flying. They should have used fighter pilots who were used to speed and making timely judgement calls. Same thing happened with the B-58s. They put B-47 and B-52 pilots in them and many crashed for the same reason. These were my Pop's words.

When I was an E-4 in the Air Force I rode brakes (cockpit tow team member) on the B-47 at Grissom AFB when it was towed to the memorial (graveyard) just outside the main gate. I also rode brakes on the KC-97 that was there and last used by the Illinois Air Guard. There was no room in the B-47 but danged if you couldn't play ping-pong in the cockpit of that KC-97. It was huge.

Sorry for the rambling. Brought back some memories.


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## syscom3 (Mar 22, 2009)

Sweb, you have any pics you can share with us?


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## Sweb (Mar 23, 2009)

syscom3 said:


> Sweb, you have any pics you can share with us?


No stills. I do have some old 8mm film my Pop took of landings while we were stationed there. I am going to see if I can have it converted and put on a DVD. The film is fragile so it'll be a mission to have it done. If successful I'll upload it to YouTube and link it here. Right now I'm sorting through his slides he took while with the 45th Tac Recon Sqn (RF-51s) at Kimpo (K-14) Korea in 1951-52 for scanning and uploading.


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## Terry T (Oct 31, 2011)

I found this site while searching for pictures of the B-47 cockpit to show my wife how small it was.
I rode a 47 from Upper Heyford, England to Ohio in 1964 as the 4th man. Wow, what a ride.

The navigator enter the plane and crawled left at the top of the ladder. The pilot next to the top of the ladder and snaked left and up to his seat.The co-pilot angled right and up onto his seat. As fourth man I had a section of the crawl way at the top of the ladder. Lift the hinged flooring and it became my backrest. The ground crew closed the outer door after pushing the sectional ladder up. The fourth man lifted a curved section of the fuselage and locked it to complete a sealed cockpit for pressurization. Reverse it during an emergency and it became my bailout station. 
Surviving a jump was minimal and almost zero with ECM pods on the side.

None of the crew could "walk" around during flight. The pilot and co-pilot had plenty of stretch room in their seats. Remember Jimmy Stewart 
stretching during the movie. I crawled forward to give the navigator his in-flight meal and just handed the other two crew members lunches up.

The co-pilots seat swiveled 180 degrees to the gun radar and two 20mm cannon controls. His controls locked forward to do this. I was 
permitted to climb up and hang over his back to watch him fire and dump the chafe. The plane shook and felt like it moved sideways.

Movement was very limited due to space and equipment you wore. The AC told me the survival kit I set on would help me survive five minutes in the North Atlantic. That is if I survived the jump.

Those six engines pinned you to your seat during take off. Our six hour flight turned into almost eight because: We lost 10% power on #6 during take off, lost cabin pressure after topping off from a KC-97 off Scotland, stated on full oxygen (except to eat) because of glass flakes in 
the cabin due to recent canopy repair and forward main gear wouldn't indicate down on final. I crawled back to the circuit breakers and found none "popped". Another hour of circling and waiting while the runway was foamed, sitting on taxiway while pins were put into gear locks. 

Finnally frest Finally fresh air at 2200 hrs. Would I do it again? Nope. Will I remember it forever? You bet ya. 

Thanks for listening and if you have questions feel free to e mail me.

TT


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## Terry T (Oct 31, 2011)

Sweb,
Thanks for the input.
I was PCS at Heyford and also made many trips over to Brize Norton. I spent three years in England.
Both bases received B-47's from all over the Eastern part of the US for their reflex tour. If you got to know the crews well, they would bring you items you could not get in the UK. One Thanksgiving a 47 came loaded with turkeys on a sled in the bomb bay. Refrigeration was already there at 30,000 feet!


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## syscom3 (Oct 31, 2011)

Terry T, have you ever visited the March AFB museum? They have a B47 on display and a B47 cockpit in the hanger.


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## barney (Nov 1, 2011)

As a kid I was a CAP cadet and got to hang around the SAC base at Lincoln, Nebraska. They had maybe 100 B-47s there and also KC-97s. Every day there would be a drill and the crews would start the bomber engines and black smoke and noise would abound. I don't remember them all taking off in mass but there would always be some coming and going though, probably training. 

I was always attracted to the guns on the tail of a B-47, twin 50's, and the crewmen laughed at my questions. They didn't place much trust in their armament. They also talked about how the navigator was a dead duck if there was trouble on takeoff. I also remember some dark talk about what they thought their chances were if they ever went over the pole.

The lower deck of a KC-97 was full of what looked like propane tanks like you would see on a farm but all painted medium green. This was where the fuel was carried for inflight refueling. 

The food at the mess halls was unbelievably good. I had shrimp one night and they were the size of drum sticks off of a small turkey. I didn't know shrimp got that big and have never seen them that size since. Around the mess halls (there were two) were posters advocating weight loss. This was because the bomber crews were getting fat I was told.


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## GregP (Nov 1, 2011)

One of the volunteers at the Planes of Fame was a B-47 copilot before flying for American Airlines. I'll ask this Saturday and report back in with the info he passes on.


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## model299 (Nov 2, 2011)

I've watched "Strategic Air Command" many times. Bought a VHS tape of it first, than a DVD copy. Sure do wish they could find an original "Vista Vision" copy intact to restore, rather than the current "pan and scan" available. I bet it would look great on my wide screen.

I NEVER get tired of watching the amazing cinematography. That startup and takeoff sequence is incredible. June gets on my nerves from time to time, but the rest of the movie is great!


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## GregP (Nov 6, 2011)

OK, I asked Captain Fran Pieri, who flew in SAC in B-47's for some time and also during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

He says the throttles are on the right and you can move around in a small passageway down the left of the seats. The crew members can even get into the bomb bay iiflight. The B-47 had a service ceiling of about 50,000 feet and was, indeed, cleared for the LABS manuever. Fran got to ride through one LABS maneuver and got to fly through another one. He says they mostly cruised around at 280 - 420 knots bout could get fast whenever they wanted to do so, and they could oputperform a MiG-15, though he isn't so sure about the MiG-17.

With all that wing, they get high and fast and when the MiG's committed to an attack profile, they'd simply turn into them and cause the MiG's to overshoot and, many times, lose a lot of altitude when they tried to tur harder thanthey could at high altitude.


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