# B-2 Crash!



## FLYBOYJ (Feb 22, 2008)

HAGATNA, Guam - A B-2 stealth bomber crashed at an air base on Guam but both pilots ejected safely and were in good condition, the Air Force said. 

Thick black smoke could be seen billowing from the wreckage at Andersen Air Force Base, said Geanne Ward, a resident in the northern village of Yigo who was on the base visiting her husband.

Ward said she didn't witness the crash but noticed a rising plume of smoke behind the base's air control tower.

She said crowds began to gather as emergency vehicles arrived Saturday morning local time.

"Everybody was on their cell phones, and the first thing everyone wanted to know was did the pilots make it out in time," she said.

A board of officers will investigate the accident.

Each B-2 bomber costs about $1.2 billion to build. All 21 stealth bombers are based at Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri but the Air Force has been rotating several of them through Guam since 2004, along with B-1 and B-52 bombers.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Feb 22, 2008)

I'm glad the pilots got out safely.


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## SoD Stitch (Feb 23, 2008)

Yes, I'm glad both of the pilots ejected safely. However, there goes a billion dollars worth of A/C. 

To put it in perspective, most third-world air forces spend about a billion dollars ON THEIR ENTIRE AIR FORCE. Scary . . .


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## mkloby (Feb 23, 2008)

There have been a lot of Class-A's this fiscal year already...


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## evangilder (Feb 23, 2008)

Agreed, Matt. Last year was a spate of airshow crashes, this year it's a lot of military crashes. 

Considering how long the B-2 has been in operation, and through several conflicts, I'd say their safety record has been very good. Thankfully, the crew got out okay.


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## ccheese (Feb 23, 2008)

Welcome back, Matt.... missed you...

Glad the pilots got out ok.

Charles


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## ToughOmbre (Feb 23, 2008)

We only lost a billion dollars worth of composite materials, metal, plastic, rubber, etc. Replaceable.

Thank God the pilots are safe.

TO


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## Konigstiger205 (Feb 23, 2008)

ToughOmbre said:


> We only lost a billion dollars worth of composite materials, metal, plastic, rubber, etc. Replaceable.
> 
> Thank God the pilots are safe.
> 
> TO



Agreed...the life of the pilots its a lot more important than the aircraft but this is going to be very expensive to replace...we had some accidents here in recent years but on Migs21 and in some of the crashes the pilots unfortunately didn't make it...


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## Trautloft (Feb 23, 2008)

do you know which of these (Northrop designation, AV- xxx , Spirit of xxx) crashed?


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## syscom3 (Feb 23, 2008)

The loss of the B2 points out the fact that these aircraft are extremely expensive and irreplacable.

Its proof that the next generation of bombers need to be unmanned and cheap enough to be expendable.


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## Matt308 (Feb 23, 2008)

The Airforce is already looking at the next generation bomber to be fielded in 2018. It is currently to be manned and smaller than B-2. Specs are for a 28,000lb load. Operational scenarios also indicate subsonic with about a 5000+ mile range.

The comment above about the B-2 operational record is spot on. And $1.2B price tag includes all the ground infrastructure and maintenance tooling too. While most certainly expensive, the airframe is not quite that expensive. What does that leave us with... 19?


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## Kiwikid (Feb 23, 2008)

Any idea if it was engine failure or something else ?


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## davparlr (Feb 23, 2008)

It must have been something dramatic for pilots to abandon a multi-engine aircraft. One engine failure should have been no big deal. One engine blowing up and taking out the other (they are in pairs in the fuselage) could do it. Total loss of flight controls would certainly do it, but they are highly redundant (quad redundant). It is certainly not likely that the loss or failure of controls and displays would cause that, but it still makes a knot in my stomach. The plane is a software plane. Was there a software glitch just waiting for the right combinations to occur? We did have an occurrence where all the controls and displays (actually all avionics) were lost during a test flight, except the backup systems, and I was on the hot seat. It turned out to be a software glitch. The B-2 was designed to have growth to three crewmen, so we built in that capability in the software. There was an electrical failure on the cursor select switch (which selected the display on which the cursor would work). The failure indicated that the operator had selected a display that was a growth location. The main computer looked for the display, and, not finding it, declared itself sick and turned itself off. The back up computer detected this and automatically took over. It scanned for status and found the faulty select switch and looked for the non-present display. Finding none, declared itself sick and shut down. There are only two main processors that control all of avionics! Everything went black except emergency systems. Thank goodness I was not responsible for that system. It is interesting that I had argued not to have the back up instruments because the C and D subsystem was so much more reliable than any other aircraft including their back up system. I was right regarding the C and D system, but I wasn't considering the support processors, or their software systems design. Luckily, I lost that argument (I really didn't fight hard).

Anyway, it is the loss of a national treasure.

I'll try to contact my B-2 buds and find out if they have heard anything. My friend is the chief engineer of the B-2 and he will know the latest, but he will be too busy to bother.


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## evangilder (Feb 24, 2008)

I was speaking with a buddy thats is a former USAF pilot. His opinion is that it was a software error or problem.


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## syscom3 (Feb 24, 2008)

Dave, if what you say is true..... then the software engineers should have been executed for gross negligence.

Certain critical functions whether in a aircraft, ship, refinery, hospital, etc should never ever be allowed to shutdown on account of the processor declaring itself "sick".

A correctly designed system would have allowed the flight critical systems to operate in a "dumb mode" while the main computer and its backup decides wtf to do.

And yes Dave, I do have a background in hi reliability systems.


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## Glider (Feb 24, 2008)

Lets be honest we don't know what caused the loss. 
What I would suggest is the reason why this is such a critical loss, is down to the low numbers purchased, leaving little if any reserve. They were always going to be expensive but the delays, reduced numbers, slowed production rates all bump up the unit cost.


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## evangilder (Feb 24, 2008)

True, we won't know until after the official inquiry. Whether the results will be released to the general public is anyone's guess at this point.


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## Matt308 (Feb 24, 2008)

syscom3 said:


> Dave, if what you say is true..... then the software engineers should have been executed for gross negligence.
> 
> Certain critical functions whether in a aircraft, ship, refinery, hospital, etc should never ever be allowed to shutdown on account of the processor declaring itself "sick".
> 
> ...



There are actually a multitude of ways to tackle the problem. Multiple redundancy, dissimilar processors, voting planes, commensurate design assurance, etc. Proper compliance with some of the published safety assessment guidance may also be suspect, MilStds 498, 882 and 2167. Failure of a system that can contribute to a catastrophic event must not only been shown to be extremely improbable, but must also be developed with redundancy to mitigate failsafe contingencies. The Follensby Principle. There are so many areas that are suspect here, it would be a sheer WAG to blame the architecture at this point.

Hell for all we know, it was a flock of seagulls (cf KC-135 at Elmendorf).


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 24, 2008)

Damn that sucks! Good thing they are okay.

Lets be honest it was only a matter of time till a B-2 goes down. It can happen to any aircraft.


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## davparlr (Feb 24, 2008)

syscom3 said:


> Dave, if what you say is true..... then the software engineers should have been executed for gross negligence.



I was squirming in my seat trying to contain my submittal (it is probably wise that I do). Leave it to say, that I consider boundry testing and beyond boundry testing of values a basic systems criteria.



> Certain critical functions whether in a aircraft, ship, refinery, hospital, etc should never ever be allowed to shutdown on account of the processor declaring itself "sick".
> 
> A correctly designed system would have allowed the flight critical systems to operate in a "dumb mode" while the main computer and its backup decides wtf to do.
> 
> And yes Dave, I do have a background in hi reliability systems.



All sound comments.

I will say that flight control software, deemed safety of flight, is more rigorously tested than avionics in general. The aircraft should not be lost for failure of avionics systems. 



Matt308 said:


> Hell for all we know, it was a flock of seagulls (cf KC-135 at Elmendorf).



Yes.


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## fly boy (Feb 25, 2008)

wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2


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## syscom3 (Feb 25, 2008)

fly boy said:


> wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2




How old are you?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 25, 2008)

fly boy said:


> wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2



How does any aircraft crash? It happens...

Come on kid. I dont care how old you are, I know you are smart eneogh to know that!


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## evangilder (Feb 25, 2008)

Right now, the cause of the crash is under investigation and the root cause of the crash is still undetermined. While we are speculating what *might *have happened, we won't know for a while what did indeed happen. It could very well be a bird strike and the possibility of that, or a software malfunction, mechanical failure or something else. NO ONE knows yet.


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## Matt308 (Feb 25, 2008)

Trautloft said:


> do you know which of these (Northrop designation, AV- xxx , Spirit of xxx) crashed?



Spirit of Kansas


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## comiso90 (Feb 25, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Come on kid. I dont care how old you are, I know you are smart eneogh to know that!



If you can understand what he's trying to say, you should be a Special Ed instructor.

Zannel - short bus airlines
.


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## ToughOmbre (Feb 25, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> How does any aircraft crash? It happens...



Sure does. Airplanes fall out of the sky, ships sink. We've even lost two manned spacecraft. 

Unfortunately, that's the price of doin' business.

TO


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 25, 2008)

comiso90 said:


> If you can understand what he's trying to say, you should be a Special Ed instructor.
> .


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## Graeme (Feb 25, 2008)

Glider said:


> Lets be honest we don't know what caused the loss.


 
Was John Travolta on board?


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## syscom3 (Feb 25, 2008)

comiso90 said:


> If you can understand what he's trying to say, you should be a Special Ed instructor.
> .


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## DBII (Feb 25, 2008)

My number 1 lady is an Special Ed English teacher, she said WTF when she read it...sorry she was looking at breaking new... 
I'm in trouble now.

dbII


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## Njaco (Feb 25, 2008)

Cosimo, I'm blowing that up and framing it on my wall!!!!!


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## comiso90 (Feb 25, 2008)




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## Heinz (Feb 26, 2008)

glad the pilots got out ok!


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## Lucky13 (Feb 26, 2008)

A few countries WHOLE airforce fund went up in smoke there....


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## davparlr (Feb 28, 2008)

I received this today from one of my B-2 buds. You may find it interesting.

-----Original Message-----

Subject: Message to My Maintainers

To the men and women of the 509th Maintenance Group



On Friday night, we learned that aircraft 89-0127, the Spirit of
Kansas, crashed during takeoff on the redeployment sortie from Andersen
AB, Guam. Almost immediately, we had confirmation that the crew safely
ejected and were being taken for medical evaluation. Our deployed
people personally saw the two crew members and we know they will both
return to fly the mighty B-2 in the future!! We all breathed a sigh of
relief that they survived.



The shock is wearing off here at Whiteman after a full weekend of
activities and communications to the families, to the deployed forces
on
Guam, to our headquarters, and to our community. Accidents happen-I
contend we were all convinced we were "immune" because of the
tremendous
redundancy built into the B-2. But, we must remember, the B-2 Spirit
is
an aircraft and aircraft do have mishaps. It can and it did happen to
us. So, where do we go from here? We still have a critical national
mission to accomplish and we do that very well, everyday!! As we
formulated a press statement over the weekend, it became clear to me we
don't take the time often enough to sit back and reflect on what we-the
1250+ maintainers-have accomplished. We have generated over 75000
flying hours without the loss of an aircraft, over 14,000 sorties
produced, nearly 100 combat missions in three conflicts. And, we are
the nation's most complex, technically-advanced, sophisticated weapon
system. Jack Northrop's dream of a flying wing is a reality-everyday
for 19 years--thanks to what you do. This mishap is unfortunate but it
is a speedbump on the roadmap of life-it in no way diminishes your
outstanding accomplishments and contributions to aviation history.
Please help each other-and the rest of our community: neighbors, B-2
maintenance alumni, our depot work force--understand the contributions
they have made to the security of our great nation. 



Once the shock of the event passes, we must come back with stronger
self-confidence than we ever displayed in the past. We have a Safety
Investigation Board en-route to Guam to review the mishap and find the
cause. We will solicit their feedback to see if they determine
anything
to be of fleet wide importance. At this time, we know of no such
cause.
We need to come together as a team now and focus on how to reestablish
our operational self-confidence. Brigadier General Harencak agreed to
take a "strategic safety pause" from normal flying on Monday, 25
February 2008. We have a series of activities to conduct including a
shop visit with the Egress, Survival Equipment and Life Support
technicians-their meticulous work culminated in two crew members
walking
away from the mishap scene. Then, we will have an Operations and
Maintenance Group Call, with the Wing Commander, in Hangar 27 (the Wash
Rack) at 0900 hours to discuss how we can best support one another
through this trying time. All personnel will then be released to their
commanders for any squadron-specific activities the commanders believe
will make our team stronger. 



Everyone on the B-2 team shared the same, gut-wrenching feeling when
receiving this unfortunate news. I fielded many calls and e-mails from
past members of our great team, all expressing their relief to know the
crew survived and then grief as we mourn the loss of the Spirit of
Kansas. This aircraft contributed over 5,000 flying hours to those
75,000 mentioned earlier. We cannot help but get connected and
invested
emotionally in these great aircraft-national treasures, each and every
one of them. 



As I said earlier, accidents are an inherent risk in aviation and we
boast a phenomenal safety record that I challenge anyone to match-I
contend it is unprecedented in the annuls of aviation history. That
said, we are postured now, as we have always been, ready for our
strategic deterrent role across the spectrum of international
relationships. We can cast our mighty shadow to strike fear in the
hearts of any would-be adversaries and we stand ready to conduct strike
missions for any of those who choose to confront the United States
directly. Please help your teammates put this terrible accident into
perspective against the grave responsibilities we have to national
defense. 



We will overcome the loss of the Spirit of Kansas and we will be
stronger for having endured this. Hold your heads high and tell your
friends, neighbors and relatives you will continue maintaining the
B-2's
readiness for national defense. We will continue pushing this platform
to new heights as we pin on new weaponry and add operational
capabilities to the weapon system. This weapon system will serve the
nation until 2058-and we will Hunt Down and Destroy America's Enemies
when called upon by our national leadership. Our friends, neighbors
and
relatives can be justifiably proud to have a connection to our B-2
community.



Let me know if you have any issues or concerns I can help you with. 



Commander, 509th Maintenance Group


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## evangilder (Feb 28, 2008)

davparlr, in the interest of opsec and privacy, I removed the name of the writer and his DSN number. Good to get the info, thanks.


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## davparlr (Feb 28, 2008)

evangilder said:


> davparlr, in the interest of opsec and privacy, I removed the name of the writer and his DSN number. Good to get the info, thanks.



No problem.


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## krieghund (Mar 2, 2008)

So it caught fire.....what materials were burning....all them long-neckers about and toxic fumes about


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## Matt308 (Mar 2, 2008)

What do you do in Riyadh, krieghund?


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## wilbur1 (Mar 2, 2008)

No answer huh


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## Matt308 (Mar 2, 2008)




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## davparlr (Mar 13, 2008)

Latest update from Av week

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blog...79a7Post:e1bbe418-f9f0-4e88-9a58-54c18780a39e


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 13, 2008)

Pretty Wild! That thing burning must of smelled really nice!


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## Trautloft (Mar 13, 2008)

Matt308 said:


> Spirit of Kansas



thanks


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## drgondog (Mar 13, 2008)

syscom3 said:


> Dave, if what you say is true..... then the software engineers should have been executed for gross negligence.
> 
> Certain critical functions whether in a aircraft, ship, refinery, hospital, etc should never ever be allowed to shutdown on account of the processor declaring itself "sick".
> 
> ...



So, what's the going pay scale for software engineeres who put their lfe on the line for an error?


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## davparlr (Mar 17, 2008)

Latest comment. Team is back, they know what the problem was. They don't know why.

I have not heard anything about whether the B-2s are grounded and I won't ask.


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## davparlr (Apr 21, 2008)

There is a claim that there was a sensor problem, which is confusing since the entire air data system is a voted quad-redundant system. But, just about any cause would be confusing. Here are some pictures that break my heart.


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 21, 2008)

Great shots Dave! As said earlier, that must of smelled real nice when it was burning!


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## SoD Stitch (Apr 21, 2008)

Nice pics. Looks like stealth material burns pretty well; either that, or it was the aluminum alloy substructure that burned. What's all that stuff to the right in the median? Is that hazmat equipment?


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 21, 2008)

I know the wings were "all plastic" as we used to say.


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## SoD Stitch (Apr 21, 2008)

FLYBOYJ said:


> I know the wings were "all plastic" as we used to say.



My limited understanding of stealth materials indicates the wings are made from carbon fibers in a thermoset resin matrix; this composite material is, pound for pound, extremely strong for it's weight, resistant to damage, and transparent to electromagnetic energy. Work is also being done on thermoplastic resin matrices, in which the material can be heated and reset to shape, unlike thermoset resins which, as the name indicates, once formed, cannot be "unformed".


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 22, 2008)

SoD Stitch said:


> My limited understanding of stealth materials indicates the wings are made from carbon fibers in a thermoset resin matrix; this composite material is, pound for pound, extremely strong for it's weight, resistant to damage, and transparent to electromagnetic energy. Work is also being done on thermoplastic resin matrices, in which the material can be heated and reset to shape, unlike thermoset resins which, as the name indicates, once formed, cannot be "unformed".


You just about have it - from what I remember there was no aluminum sub structure in the wings - all carbon fiber. The only metal in the wings were the hi-loks holding everything together, internal plumbing and boost pumps, and of course the hardware to support all that.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 22, 2008)

Aaawwww.....come oooon fellas, it's just a B-2, modern crap   ..imagine it being a B-17, eh? Now, that's something worth  over.... 


(said with tongue in cheek)


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## davparlr (Apr 22, 2008)

An inappropriate comment by anyone who loves aircraft. There are more B-17s in existence than there are B-2s. The B-2 is a war bird that has been engaged in three conflagrations and some day, I would suspect, it will be more valuable as a display than the B-17 due to its rarity, innovation, and political history.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 22, 2008)

I don't think that the B-2 will ever be as much loved as the B-17, I think that the Fortress represent more, maybe it flew and fought in just one war, but it was in a far bigger war. As one of the pilots in History Channel's Dogfights said, those that fly today aren't pilots in the same way as we were....you miss the feeling of really flying in todays machines....something like that it was..

Anyhoo, what can expect to hear from one that LOVES everything old, eh?
       




(said with tongue in cheek)


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## fly boy (Apr 22, 2008)

well if a b-2 is 2.1 billion people would be freaking out if one crashed it like a large battleship you can't really afford to lose it


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 22, 2008)

fly boy said:


> well if a b-2 is 2.1 billion people would be freaking out if one crashed it like a large battleship you can't really afford to lose it



Riiiiiiiight.........


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## fly boy (Apr 22, 2008)

ok sometimes sarcasum bugs me


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## Lucky13 (Apr 22, 2008)

Better get used to it mate....  I wear a bulletproof west and a helmet when I'm here in the forum...their fire is heavy and accurate..


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 22, 2008)

fly boy said:


> ok sometimes sarcasum bugs me


And so do dumb comments.....


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## Lucky13 (Apr 22, 2008)

For f*ck sake O'Reilly...! I've told you once before, 
but I guess that I'll have to tell you again.....
DON'T PISS THE MODS OFF....!!

Are you happy now!?


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 22, 2008)

Lucky13 said:


> For f*ck sake O'Reilly...! I've told you once before,
> but I guess that I'll have to tell you again.....
> DON'T PISS THE MODS OFF....!!
> 
> Are you happy now!?


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## SoD Stitch (Apr 22, 2008)

fly boy said:


> well if a b-2 is 2.1 billion people would be freaking out if one crashed it like a large battleship you can't really afford to lose it



Hey, Adler, got another one . . . . .


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## ccheese (Apr 22, 2008)

Adler is going to run out of space to post his [email protected] comments.

Charles


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## Marcel (Apr 22, 2008)

When will we get his "Quotes thread"?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 22, 2008)

Soon my friends, soon. I fell behind a bit when I hurt my back but I will try and get it posted this weekend.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 22, 2008)

I wonder how many of US that'll figure in that thread...


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## davparlr (Apr 22, 2008)

Lucky13 said:


> I don't think that the B-2 will ever be as much loved as the B-17,


I didn't say loved, I said valuable. I wonder how many museums would trade their B-17 for a B-70?


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## Lucky13 (Apr 23, 2008)

B-70? Was that the Valkyrie?


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## davparlr (Apr 29, 2008)

Lucky13 said:


> B-70? Was that the Valkyrie?



Yes, and there is only one of them.


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## Lucky13 (Apr 29, 2008)

I remember that it was SOME bird..!


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## SoD Stitch (Apr 29, 2008)

Lucky13 said:


> I remember that it was SOME bird..!



And it still is . . . . I fear we shall never see it's like again.


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## davparlr (May 21, 2008)

According to the AF Association online Daily Report eNewsletter --CMAC


B-2 Crash Cause: Water intrusion in air-data sensors is being pegged as the cause of the B-2 bomber crash during takeoff Feb. 23 from Andersen AFB, Guam, according to a top Air Force official. The skin-flush sensors, which collect information about air pressure and density, much like a pitot tube on a conventional aircraft, provide angle-of-attack and yaw data to the B-2's computerized flight control system. After heavy, lashing rains, water got into the sensors and caused them to give faulty readings to the flight control system, the official said. As a result, the aircraft's computers determined--based on the bogus data--that the aircraft was in an improper attitude and corrected automatically. The B-2 made a sudden pitch-up and yaw that was not commanded by the pilot. The aircraft quickly stalled, became unrecoverable, and the crew of two ejected. The aircraft was a total loss. The crash led to a 53-day safety pause during which there were no B-2 flights. Air Combat Command has already made adjustments to the flight control systems to prevent further accidents and is looking at ways to seal the sensors better. A full accident investigation report is expected soon.


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## fly boy (May 21, 2008)

ToughOmbre said:


> Sure does. Airplanes fall out of the sky, ships sink. We've even lost two manned spacecraft.
> 
> Unfortunately, that's the price of doin' business.
> 
> TO



well the thing is a b-2 has the most advandced $%#$ on the planet when it comes to control or birds hiting it


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## cougar32d (May 21, 2008)

What! huh?


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## cougar32d (May 21, 2008)

Birds hitting them? where does that figure in?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 21, 2008)

I am not following either.


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## cougar32d (May 21, 2008)

We just need to re-**** this thread!


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## FLYBOYJ (May 21, 2008)

davparlr said:


> According to the AF Association online Daily Report eNewsletter --CMAC
> 
> 
> B-2 Crash Cause: Water intrusion in air-data sensors is being pegged as the cause of the B-2 bomber crash during takeoff Feb. 23 from Andersen AFB, Guam, according to a top Air Force official. The skin-flush sensors, which collect information about air pressure and density, much like a pitot tube on a conventional aircraft, provide angle-of-attack and yaw data to the B-2's computerized flight control system. After heavy, lashing rains, water got into the sensors and caused them to give faulty readings to the flight control system, the official said. As a result, the aircraft's computers determined--based on the bogus data--that the aircraft was in an improper attitude and corrected automatically. The B-2 made a sudden pitch-up and yaw that was not commanded by the pilot. The aircraft quickly stalled, became unrecoverable, and the crew of two ejected. The aircraft was a total loss. The crash led to a 53-day safety pause during which there were no B-2 flights. Air Combat Command has already made adjustments to the flight control systems to prevent further accidents and is looking at ways to seal the sensors better. A full accident investigation report is expected soon.






fly boy said:


> well the thing is a b-2 has the most advandced $%#$ on the planet when it comes to control or birds hiting it



Where did you come up with that?


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## cougar32d (May 21, 2008)

Did i write a poo-poo word?


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## Matt308 (May 22, 2008)

Jesus where are the quality posts when you need them.

Interesting to note that with a major uncommanded pitchup, that the B-2 landed top up. XB-35 testing indicated that stall was abrupt for a flying wing and resulted in an inside loop. Certainly the B-2 FCCs are programmed to prevent that, but one wonders with the air-data sensors providing such drastically erroneous errors what might have occurred. Perhaps the top up landing is indicative that flight control algorithms were actually working properly. That would be a good thing.


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## wilbur1 (May 22, 2008)

Yeah matt was thinking the same thing, for it to be so badly "outta sight" how is it that the wings werent folded or the fuselage buckled from a nosedive? flyboy shut up! (not to be confused with FLYBOYJ) whom we all covet and respect


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## wilbur1 (May 22, 2008)

Not sayin theres much of a fuselage but still an endo is an endo, damage occurs


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## FLYBOYJ (May 22, 2008)




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## Matt308 (May 23, 2008)




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## fly boy (May 23, 2008)

FLYBOYJ said:


>


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## Njaco (May 23, 2008)

ur getting better flyboy!


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## TIGER1125 (Jun 6, 2008)

For the people that want to pay their respects to her:

No it's not spam, it's security camera footage from the accident i specially registerd to the forum to bring you this.

www.dumpert.nl - B2 Crash


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## Micdrow (Jun 6, 2008)

TIGER1125 said:


> For the people that want to pay their respects to her:
> 
> No it's not spam, it's security camera footage from the accident i specially registerd to the forum to bring you this.
> 
> www.dumpert.nl - B2 Crash



Great find there tiger, I dont know why but it looks like the one that crashed pulled up way to soon.


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## Kruska (Jun 6, 2008)

Micdrow said:


> Great find there tiger, I dont know why but it looks like the one that crashed pulled up way to soon.



Thanks for the clip tiger, yes it looked like the B2 suddenly shot up. No-air-No-fly 

Regards
Kruska


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## evangilder (Jun 6, 2008)

Here is a similar clip on AVWeb. After seeing the clip, I see that the crew had no choice left but to bail out. The clip also explains why it pulled up fast like that.

Exclusive Video: B-2 Spirit Stealth Bomber Crash Technical Report


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## Matt308 (Jun 6, 2008)

If that report is true, then that smacks of control laws that are more in line with EADS/AIRBUS than Boeing. Specifically, that pilots input is always overruled by software control law limits. [Reference A320 crash at Paris Airshow where AOA limits were not allowed to be exceeded] But then again, with 30+ hour missions the control laws likely are as much UAV oriented as manned oriented. Interesting.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EM0hDchVlY_


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## comiso90 (Jun 6, 2008)

Air Force: Moisture caused $1.4 billion bomber crash

Air Force: Moisture caused $1.4 billion bomber crash - CNN.com

.


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## Kruska (Jun 7, 2008)

Once aircrafts, especially high Tec flyers such as a B-2 come to age (10-15 years+) this kind of maintenance or material-system tiring effects are unavoidable. I think it proves the outstanding quality of the B-2 and maintenance quality by the USAF that no other major accidents have occurred so far.

This was also one of the reasons for Germany to abstain from further developing this kind of aircrafts, since the expected or needed in service life of 40-50 years on such sensitive a/c might not be viable and will exceed any reasonable (more or less uncalculated) budget.

Regards
Kruska


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## Wayne Little (Jun 7, 2008)

Only just saw this crash tonight on the news...


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## Matt308 (Jun 7, 2008)

Kruska said:


> This was also one of the reasons for Germany to abstain from further developing this kind of aircrafts, since the expected or needed in service life of 40-50 years on such sensitive a/c might not be viable and will exceed any reasonable (more or less uncalculated) budget.
> 
> Regards
> Kruska



Kruska, what kind of aircraft? A strategic bomber?? Exceeding a German (more or less uncalculated) budget? And for 40-50 years of continued airworthiness?

Please explain further. I'm not sure I understand your point as it relates to Germany's procurement and operational needs.


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## Kruska (Jun 7, 2008)

Hello Matt308,

Project “Leiseflieger” = Silent Flyer was started in 1970 and resulted in the maybe the first stealthy aircraft in 1975 regarding RAM. Project MRMF " Firefly” from MBB was started in 1981 (a stealth fighter - 2 prototypes build)-The RCS was tested on a full-scale - and a windtunnel modell- and stopped in 1988 due to the above mentioned concerns regarding “impossible to be calculated” risks for financing maintenance costs - surface skin controlls -and life service upgrade costs, and future radar developments Low-frequency radars-2GHz-UHF and L-band frequency, and in the IRST technology.

MBB also developed a software package for RCS calculation, similar to Lockheed's 'Echo' RCS-calculation program. The RaSigma4 is the continuation in practical verification of RCS. It’s RCS was supposedly lower than that of the F-117 in 1991. The obtained know How went into the Tornado upgrade and the development of the Eurofighter and Barrakuda

The TDEFS project is a followup on the "Firefly". FireflyII

Some rumors indicate a certain US influence to stop the project after it was unveiled to the US in 1987 - rumors -

















Regards
Kruska


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## Matt308 (Jun 7, 2008)

Kruska said:


> Hello Matt308,
> 
> Project “Leiseflieger” = Silent Flyer was started in 1970 and resulted in the maybe the first stealthy aircraft in 1975 regarding RAM.
> Regards
> Kruska



Kruska, enough of your revisionist history already. While I won't disclaim your RaSigma historical claims... much... I will contest that you seem to be highly biased with your stealth technology origins and your posts appear to be more than a bit obfuscatory.

The US in the mid 50s applied RAM technology to airframes THAT WERE ACTUALLY FIELDED [reference SR-71]. While your Leiseflieger looks impressive, it was 30s years too late and reminds me of nothing more than a modification of the US X-3. Somehow I feel that your background is steeped more in your professional experiences and you are unwilling to admit historical precedences have been set which are contrary to your reality.

Sad actually.


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## Kruska (Jun 8, 2008)

Hello Matt308,

The only person that is reacting totally biased against others (German) developments or technical knowhow is *you*.
*You* have demonstrated this in every post were I have brought news to the forum about Germany’s technical abilities or projects.
First you dispute it, you just wipe it off the table, then you provoke and want to know more at the same time, and after you receive additional info *you* will accuse me of taking bull, tell me I am biased and a revisionist.

What modifications make a “Leiseflieger” become an X-3? Absolutely *NONE* – because you do not even know about this project and nobody seems to have forwarded any data’s or pictures to you. So what would you term a person who doesn’t know about something but straight away gives a negative and totally wrong statement?

Even the pictured “Firefly” has nothing to do with a modified X-3. Unless you would consider that an Alpha Jet mock up is a modification of an F-104, or a Leopard I is a modification of a Sherman. RAM technology was already applied by Germany during the 2nd WW for its submarines. Now if someone will tell and “proof” to me that RAM was already applied in the 1930th, I would be glad to hear about it since it would enhance my knowledge extreemly in regards to Radar history. Ever heard about the BAe Stealth project? But who am I writing to anyway.

You have provided absolutely nothing substantial on any of my forwarding’s but you resort to personal attacks and insinuations.
You don’t even take the time to read a post properly, so next time please refrain from comments regarding any of my posts as long as your narrow mindedness simply can’t take it, that not only the US is knowledgeable.

Regards
Kruska


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## Glider (Jun 8, 2008)

Back to the subject, I understand that the B2 crashed due to condensation on some of the sensors. This led to the computer giving instructions based on false readings resulting in the accident.

This risk had been identified but the information had not been passed to all the support crews as a formal notification or even informal warning.

Result, the loss of an almost priceless asset at heaven only knows what cost because a paper wasn't processed correctly.

The Crew and Support team of the aircraft have been exonerated of any blame.


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## davparlr (Jun 8, 2008)

This gives an answer to my first question of why the Pitot/static sensors heat did not boil off any water (they are very hot). It seems this is an example of nobody sitting down as doing a step-by-step hazard analysis possibilities of aircraft operation, particularly ground operations.

Not many fly-by-wire aircraft today allow pilots to override the computers. Many military aircraft today are basically unstable, including fighters and B-2, and require computers to fly the aircraft. 


B-2 accident report released

6/6/2008 - LANGLEY AIR FORCE BASE, Va. (AFPN) -- Distorted data introduced by a B-2 Spirit's air data system skewed information entering the bomber's flight control computers ultimately causing the crash of the aircraft on takeoff at Andersen Air Force Base, Guam, Feb. 23, according to an Air Combat Command accident investigation report released June 5. 

Moisture in the aircraft's Port Transducer Units during air data calibration distorted the information in the bomber's air data system, causing the flight control computers to calculate an inaccurate airspeed and a negative angle of attack upon takeoff. According to the report, this caused an, "uncommanded 30 degree nose-high pitch-up on takeoff, causing the aircraft to stall and its subsequent crash." 

Moisture in the PTUs, inaccurate airspeed, a negative AOA calculation and low altitude/low airspeed are substantially contributing factors in this mishap. Another substantially contributing factor was the ineffective communication of critical information regarding a suggested technique of turning on pitot heat in order to remove moisture from the PTUs prior to performing an air data calibration. 

The pilot received minor injuries, and the co-pilot received a spinal compression fracture during ejection. He was treated at Tripler Army Medical Center, Hawaii, and released. The aircraft was assigned to the 509th Bomb Wing at Whiteman Air Force Base, Mo. 

The cost of the lost aircraft is about $1.4 billion.


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