# Anti-Aircraft weapons



## timmo (Jul 3, 2010)

Do we have an expert who can answer a couple of questions on our weapons?

A very personal matter!!

= Tim


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## tomo pauk (Jul 5, 2010)

No expert here, but ask your question(s)...


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## timmo (Jul 6, 2010)

Thank you very much for your reply.

It is said that I was shot down by AA fire. I believe it was Me 109 cannon.

This was 1940, UK, near Portsmouth. 10,000'.

If it was heavy AA - 3-4" stuff - there would have been bursts in the sky. I saw no bursts. They could not have hit me with one round? If it was this, there would have been a large explosion nearby I would have been hit by large pieces of shrapnel? There was no explosion - just the fuel tank catching fire several holes in my legs.

Alternative - Bofors. Could Bofors hit at that height? Are the shells contact or proximity?

Dilemma!!

= best wishes, Tim

[email protected] is the easiest way to speak - given my age!!


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## Thorlifter (Jul 6, 2010)

This is according to Janes Ammunition Handbook on the 40mm Bofors gun. The short answer is, yes, it did fire proximity shells....

_*Development*
The first Bofors 40 mm 3P round was developed for use with the Trinity air-defence system. The term 3P denotes Prefragmented Programmable Proximity fuzed, indicating the main features of the round. It has also been referred to as PFPPX-HV (HV meaning High-Velocity) or simply as PFPPX. The 3P round for Trinity is designated the 3P-HV and has a muzzle velocity of 1,100 m/s to match the other requirements of the system. However, from 1990 onwards, the 40 mm 3P concept was expanded to include similar projectiles for use with other weapons in the 40 mm L/70 range. All existing 40 mm L/70 weapons can now have a 3P capability, once the gun and the associated fire-control system have been modified to accept the programmable fuzing arrangements. An SAK 40 L/70 Mark 3 naval gun is under development and is able to fire 3P rounds. The revised 40 mm L/70 3P rounds have external dimensions, weights and ballistics to match other projectiles in the 40 mm L/70 ammunition family.The Bofors 40 mm 3P round was part of an order placed by the Swedish matériel administration FMV in May 1995. The order was worth SKr300 million, with deliveries commencing in 1996, covering supply of the 3P round for the CV 9040, the air-defence vehicle component of the Swedish Army's CV 90 Infantry Fighting Vehicle (IFV) family. An option for extra 3P rounds and the associated programming equipment was part of the order. The 3P rounds are the first to

*Description*
The Bofors 40 mm 3P is a fixed round, using a brass cartridge case rigidly secured to the projectile by two 360º crimping bands.The Trinity 3P round follows the same general lines as the 40 mm L/70 Pre-Fragmented High-Explosive (PFHE) round (see separate entry), but the proximity fuze has an extra programming function (see below). The projectile is larger than the 40 mm L/70 PFHE, with the complete round weighing 2.8 kg and the projectile weighing 1.1 kg. The projectile is filled with 140 g of Octol. The special high-fragmentation steel shell body is lined internally with 1,100 tungsten-carbide pellets, each 3 mm in diameter. The muzzle velocity is 1,100 m/s.The 40 mm L/70 3P rounds are basically the same as the Trinity 3P, other than in weight and dimensions. A 40 mm L/70 3P round weighs 2.5 kg, and the projectile weighs 975 g. The projectile contains 120 g of Octol and 1,100 tungsten-carbide pellets, each 3 mm in diameter. The muzzle velocity is 1,012 m/s.By means of a Proximity Fuze Programmer (PFP) connected to a gun fire-control computer, 3P fuzes described as of the Programmable Proximity (PPX) type can be individually programmed as they are fed into the gun chamber. Programming is carried out in two steps. In the first step, a Direct-Current (DC) voltage is transmitted to the fuze to initiate its electronics and to make an initial selection of the required mode. In the second step, taken only milliseconds before firing, a high-frequency......_


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## timshatz (Jul 6, 2010)

Thorlifter said:


> This is according to Janes Ammunition Handbook on the 40mm Bofors gun. The short answer is, yes, it did fire proximity shells....
> 
> _*Development*
> The first Bofors 40 mm 3P round was developed for use with the Trinity air-defence system. The term 3P denotes Prefragmented Programmable Proximity fuzed, indicating the main features of the round. It has also been referred to as PFPPX-HV (HV meaning High-Velocity) or simply as PFPPX. The 3P round for Trinity is designated the 3P-HV and has a muzzle velocity of 1,100 m/s to match the other requirements of the system. However, from 1990 onwards, the 40 mm 3P concept was expanded to include similar projectiles for use with other weapons in the 40 mm L/70 range. All existing 40 mm L/70 weapons can now have a 3P capability, once the gun and the associated fire-control system have been modified to accept the programmable fuzing arrangements. An SAK 40 L/70 Mark 3 naval gun is under development and is able to fire 3P rounds. The revised 40 mm L/70 3P rounds have external dimensions, weights and ballistics to match other projectiles in the 40 mm L/70 ammunition family.The Bofors 40 mm 3P round was part of an order placed by the Swedish matériel administration FMV in May 1995. The order was worth SKr300 million, with deliveries commencing in 1996, covering supply of the 3P round for the CV 9040, the air-defence vehicle component of the Swedish Army's CV 90 Infantry Fighting Vehicle (IFV) family. An option for extra 3P rounds and the associated programming equipment was part of the order. The 3P rounds are the first to
> ...



Thor, the details seem to be for the modern version. Would that make it a different round? My understanding of the weapons used during WW2 was you were safe above 8K feet from light/medium AAA. The 20MM and 40MM being classified as light/medium. As for the proximity shells, it fired them later in the war after the US started putting fuses in them. That was in the 1944/43 time period. I do not thing the 40MM had a proximity fuse in 1940. I think it was a contact round. All this is IMHO.

Timmo, another way of looking at this might be to find the guy who claimed a British fighter over Portsmith at that time. Can you supply the details. We know the where and how high, but what about the time, number of aircraft in your group and mission you were on (Patrol, Intercept, ect). There are quite a few guys on this board that can track down almost every claim out there. If somebody in the LW says they got you, there is a good chance these guys can find them. 

But, if I were to guess, I would put my money on the 109. First, you saw no other AAA rounds explode around you (and those things are always fired in bunches) and secondly, you never saw the guy who got you, which is generally how it happens.


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## Thorlifter (Jul 6, 2010)

Tim, very good point and I think the data I posted above is for a more modern version.

However, the 40mm ammunition used in WW2 in the bofor gun was a standard high explosive shell with a sensitive point-detonating fuse designed to detonate on impact with the light weight materials on an airplane. However, if the shell failed to impact, a fuse would detonate the round at the end of the tracer burnout range of 3500 yards (10,500 feet). Thus, it acted like a proximity round. If Timmo was at 10,000, it highly possible the rounds burned out early and detonated.


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## Shortround6 (Jul 6, 2010)

I think the smallest shell they could get a proximity fuse into in WW II was a 3in. At any rate that is what fueled the push for automatic 3in guns at the end of the war and immediately post war. 
After all, a proximity fuse is a miniature radar set, both transmitter and receiver and back when they were using vacuum tubes you did need a certain amount of room.


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## timmo (Jul 6, 2010)

Fascinating lot of information - thanks!

After long chats with the Aunties of No1, 43 601 Sqns, we're almost certain that we know the chap - his 18th kill.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/photo04/RAF2/Helmut_Wick.jpg

But I wanted to come in the other way disprove the AA idea.

I have the feeling that I would not have survived a 40mm hit?

= Tim


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## timshatz (Jul 6, 2010)

Timmo, thanks for the info. So you were knocked down on August 16, 1940, East of Portsmouth at 2:35 in the afternoon. There is a recorded victory by Helmut Wick at that time. However, he has the height at 12,000 ft. You'd be out of the range of a Bofors round at that height. 

Interestingly enough, the RAF doesn't record having lost any fighters that day. There is a story in there, probably. 

As to getting hit by a 40mm shell and surviving, that is a good question. If it hit the fuel tank and exploded, no chance. Most likely the Hurricane just blows up. If it hit the engine, the results would probably be similar. Maybe the aircraft stays intact, but not by much. A near miss spraying you and the fighter with shrapnel is a definite possibility. But you should've heard something going bang close by. As noted, those things travel in packs. And getting hit at the end of the AAA round's range is a real long shot. 

Getting hit in the tank and having your legs sprayed with shrapnel is more likely a result of a below and behind (or to the side) attack. Behind or to the side would allow the rounds to slip past the armor plate, detonate on the forward firewall and....


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## Glider (Jul 6, 2010)

I would have thought that a hit by a 40mm that explodes on a single engined aircraft is almost certain to shoot him down or damage him enough to deflect him. Its for the extra stopping power that 20mm were being replaced by 40mm as quickly as possible in the Pacific against suicide bombers.


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## Erich (Jul 6, 2010)

Germans were not using the 4cm cannon this early in the war. would of been 2cm or 3.7cm

sorry


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## davebender (Jul 6, 2010)

> Germans were not using the 4cm cannon this early in the war. would of been 2cm or 3.7cm


I don't think Germany mass produced the Bofors 40mm cannon. The few used by Germany were captured or manufactured in Norway.

Production of German Tube-fired Weapon 1939 to 1945.
Production Stats on German Tube-fired Weapons 1939-1945

*1940 German AA Weapon Production.*
863 Heer 2cm Flak 30 and 38.
42 Heer 2cm Flakvierling (quad 2cm)
6,609 Luftwaffe 2cm Flak 30 and 38.
675 Luftwaffe 3.7cm Flak 18 and 36.
1,130 Luftwaffe 8.8cm Flak 18, 36 and 38.
290 Luftwaffe 10.5cm Flak 38 and 39.


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## Erich (Jul 6, 2010)

captured 4cm were used as examples and then produced for units as small as the KM Schnellboots up to the heavy Kreuzers like the Prinz Eugen


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## timmo (Jul 7, 2010)

Very helpful, thank you noma!!

As to records , Tim - I'm listed in many places - here's one -

As to height AND timing - time zones memory contribute to erors?

Sufice to say, neither 1,43 nor 601 (the only sqns involved) lost another a/c at that time/place.

I'm happy to believe the more glamorous version!!

= Tim


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## Colin1 (Jul 7, 2010)

timmo said:


> As to records Tim - I'm listed in many places - here's one...


Which one are you Tim?


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## Colin1 (Jul 7, 2010)

noma123 said:


> You could also have an dental infection inside the pulp layer of your tooth; this is where the nerve exists


Yes, quite
I think I can see where you're going with this, a direct hit to the infected tooth with a 40mm AA shell and the pilot is probably going to curse his double bad luck and call it a day. And require a seriously massive filling.


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## Glider (Jul 7, 2010)

Erich said:


> captured 4cm were used as examples and then produced for units as small as the KM Schnellboots up to the heavy Kreuzers like the Prinz Eugen



I admit that I thought that the 40mm used on the Prinz Eugen came from the Norwegian factory.


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## timmo (Jul 7, 2010)

As timshatz says, Colin!

The JFD were never used.

= Tim


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## timshatz (Jul 7, 2010)

Timmo, do I have the date right? Wick's number 18 was attacked over Portsmouth on Aug 16th. All the record notices I got were from Wick's list which was reprinted in numerous places. 

As to the 3.7CM V 40MM, I think Timmo was told he was knocked down by Friendly Fire. If it was over Portsmouth, it was friendly (with friends like that....). So that would make it a Bofors gun. 

Timmo, did you bail or fly it down?


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## davebender (Jul 7, 2010)

Sweden, British, USA, German and Japanese Bofors 40 mm/56 (1.57") Model 1936


> Notes on German Weapons and Mountings
> These were manufactured at the Norwegian Kongsberg Arsenal. The Arsenal started license production of this weapon for the Royal Norwegian Navy in the 1930s and was kept in limited production throughout the war. Introduced into German naval service about late 1943 and was used to arm the cruisers Admiral Hipper and Prinz Eugen as well as some Schnellbootes. As far as is known, only single mountings were ever used on warships and only HE tracer was issued.


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## Colin1 (Jul 7, 2010)

Colin1 said:


> Yes, quite
> I think I can see where you're going with this, a direct hit to the infected tooth with a 40mm AA shell and the pilot is probably going to curse his double bad luck and call it a day. And require a seriously massive filling.


Eric
you can pull this post too if you like, I only responded because I had a little too much free time on my hands


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## timmo (Jul 7, 2010)

Yes - 16 August - baled out over sea - drifted onto West Wittering by my Section Leader, Flight Sergeant Berry - savd my life. Killed before I could thank nim.

On a different tack - what did this??

Damn - too big - back later!!

= Tim


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## Colin1 (Jul 7, 2010)

Timmo
more on your exploits please, you sound like you've had a right old life


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## timmo (Jul 7, 2010)

Like what? I'm afraid of repeating myself.

BofB? Russia? MSFU? India? Christmas Island??

Photos rather than text.

= Tim


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## timshatz (Jul 7, 2010)

Timmo, both look like Cannon or shrapnel damage. First one looks like a big chunk of something came through the side. Something like the base of a shell. Second one looks like something around 40MM blew up next to the plane and sprayed hits on the fuselage.


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## timmo (Jul 7, 2010)

One's the entry - t'other the exit.

= Tim


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## timshatz (Jul 7, 2010)

Got it, #2 is the exit. 20MM went off inside the bird, I guess. 

Is that second one a Typhoon? Looks like the tail has strengtheners around it.


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## Colin1 (Jul 7, 2010)

timmo said:


> Like what? I'm afraid of repeating myself.
> 
> BofB? Russia? MSFU? India? Christmas Island??


Everything?
Photos work for us 

Don't worry about repeating yourself


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## timmo (Jul 7, 2010)

Same a/c - Typhoon - the two sides.

Strengtheners? Indeed. Because the tails kept falling off!!

Everything? Starting with.............?? 1940? AFTER the incident!! 6'3".

= Tim


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## timshatz (Jul 7, 2010)

Great shot Timmo, are you in that group? Is that a Mark 1 Hurricane? Very cool. Great shot. 

Are the shots from the Typhoon, are they your aircraft?


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## Colin1 (Jul 7, 2010)

timmo said:


> Strengtheners? Indeed. Because the tails kept falling off!!
> 
> Everything? Starting with.............?? 1940? AFTER the incident!! 6'3"


How many tail problems did you encounter personally Tim?

...and how many Sabre problems?

lol everything, so start at the beginning 

I'm guessing you're 6' 3" which would have made a Spitfire/Hurricane cockpit pretty cosy. Did you get more room in the Typhoon office?


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## timshatz (Jul 7, 2010)

Ok, if you're '6"3, that means you are probably the guy third from the right, leaning up against the Hurricane. Guess right?


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## Erich (Jul 7, 2010)

as I said earlier there were captured examples used and then reformatted and built up in Germany and yes Norway also took part but it is still unclear as to how many made for the KM as many ships in the KM arsenal have found had 1-2 or up to 10-15 on each craft. example is the 2 Line ships used as Flak ships in 1945 in the Baltic

from another forum and one posters findings

The Germans considered the Bofors gun to be a superior weapon but the 40 mm calibre was odd for them. So the extant guns were sold to Sweden (together with two Bns of 150 mm howitzers).

But what to do with the 82 remaining guns not yet assembled? After thinking a while the Germans did on 1st May 1939 decide to add the 40 mm Bofors gun into their inventory as:

4 cm FlAK 28 (Bofors)

From where they got 28 is unknown. 38 should be more logical.

During the secret build up before "Barbarossa" Germany in Oct-Nov 1940 provided Finland with 92 guns ex-Austrian and ex-Dutch war booty.

By summer 1940 the Germans had laid hand on several factories producing Bofors guns.

1. Austria (Böhler) Sep 1938
2. Poland (Starakowice) Sep 1939
3. Denmark (Söartilleriet) Apr 1940
4. Norway (Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk) Apr 1940
5. Belgium (Fabrique Nationale) May 1940
6. Netherlands (Artillerie Inrichtingen Hembrug) May 1940

The production was however laid down.

The German Navy had captured several ships and craft equipped with Bofors guns and wanted more. Therefore the Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk in Norway took up production as Waffenfabrik Kongsberg. 800 guns were ordered from Kongsberg in Dec 1942. By July 1944 the German Navy had 578 Bofors guns in service. ( this is an uncertain figure according to other German sources )

The extant Beutewaffen Army guns from the factories mentioned above were pressed into the Coast Artillery - some 247 guns.

However also the Luftwaffe became interested in the Bofors guns and bought these from MAVAG in Hungary. By 1st Oct 1942 the German Airforce AA had 240 Bofors guns in service. MAVAG produced some 1.300 Bofors guns during WW 2.


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## delcyros (Jul 7, 2010)

Typically, british 40mm HE- ammo self detonated 3- to 3500 yards away or alternatively on impact. It´s highly unlikely that a 40mm round would be there in 10000 ft altitude. That´s way outside the effective slant range for this weapon. In 1940 UK FLAK predictors hardly would engage fighters in this altitude. They were able to cope with targets flying straight and level, though.

The 40mm Bofors also had a comparably small bursting charge for a weapon of this size (0.15lbs TNT typically, the 37mm round in comparison had 0.8 lbs bursting charge) little more than one third of the bursting charge of the 20mm mine round with consequently little effects on target by blast effects. It offered kinetic energy on impact but little blast, the latter beeing more important against soft skinned aeroplanes.


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## rochie (Jul 8, 2010)

Hello Timmo looks like i've used a picture of Hurricanes from one of your squadrons in my signature picture, i'm guessing that your avatar is your Hurricane ?
might make a good subject for the upcoming BoB group model build.


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## timmo (Jul 8, 2010)

1. Typhoon belonged to Canadian, Sgt Earl Lavery. Hit over Fécamp.
2. Can't recall - one or two before they took action?
3. 6'3" - right! - but no problem - but not with Irvin Jacket. Seat had good adjustment - very strong spring - tried to alter the position on the approach one day - slipped off the catch I was bounced up down at an alarming rate. Not condusive to a 3-pointer!
4. My a/c? Yes, indeed! I had 9 'O's in my time. Here's a couple.
5. Great info on the Bofors?

= Tim


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## timshatz (Jul 8, 2010)

Very cool stuff Timmo. Great info. Think the guys who do Group Builds will be all over the pics and whatnot. 

Interesting that your height wasn't a problem in the Hurricane. How about the Spitfire and Typhoon? I had heard the Spitfire was a tight squeeze. 

Great tidbit on the Hurricane seat. Spring loaded! Hope nobody saw you do your bouncer, that's the kind of thing that people get nicknames over. 

Back to the Typhoon, my understanding is they were used only over France. Did you do ops over France in a Typhoon? If so, when? Were you around during the Normandy Campaign?


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## timmo (Jul 8, 2010)

Height? No problem in any. Plenty of seat adjustment. But an Irvin Jacket on broad shoulders in the Spit was a bit tight!

How do you mean - only over France?

We shot down the first Me210 over northern WEngland. We did V1 stuff. And, of course, we were often over France.

No - missed Normandy - thank God. Only one of our squadron survived. Went to defend Calcutta instead!!

= Tim

Should I make these smaller??


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## rochie (Jul 8, 2010)

many thanks Timmo, will look into doing one of your Hurricanes


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## timshatz (Jul 8, 2010)

Great posts from you log Timmo. Seems you spent a goodly time in the Typhoon 1B. How long was your tour in those fighters? The posts you put up say they were bombing missions. Are they the most common you ever did in the Typhoon or were fighter sweeps as well. Were you bombed up most of the time or did you go out with rockets?

Typhoon had a rep of being a handful to fly, big engine tended to throw a lot of torque. What was it like, in your opinion, versus the MK V Spit? Or MK IX? 

Really enjoy the info you are putting out. It is extremely interesting.


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## Thorlifter (Jul 8, 2010)

timshatz said:


> Really enjoy the info you are putting out. It is extremely interesting.



Ditto that.....I am completely enjoying your first hand account of what you did.


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## timmo (Jul 9, 2010)

Tim-

1. 'Smallprint' shows that it was Sweeps, Standing Patrols Bomber ESCORT - rather than us bombed up. When they went to France, it was all bombing straffing *Typhoon Tale * shows Jimmy Kyle doing 160+ such sorties. One ploy we used was to cross the Channel at 0 feet - + a whisper - then max rate climb to 10,000' or so.

7 months.

2. Can't compare performance, but yes - a big brute!! But the P47 must have been even heavier (?) yet was as sweet as silk.

= Tim


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## Colin1 (Jul 18, 2010)

Timmo
have you seen this? Get in touch with them man, tell'em you're still kicking too 

Letters to the Editor

_The Daily Telegraph_ Sunday 18 July 2010

SIR - I wonder how many are aware that in August 1941 Churchill sent 38 Hurricanes and their pilots to protect the Murmansk corridor.

Only one of those pilots remains alive today: Eric Carter, who not only received two Russian medals but was awarded Russian wings and made an honorary colonel of a Russian squadron. The help has not been forgotten, as he was recently invited to a reception at the Russian Embassy, where he was presented with a medal commemorating 65 years since the end of the Second World War in Europe.

*Fg Off Cyril Burton (retd)*
Abbots Morton, Worcestershire

_PS: Do you remember either of them?_


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 18, 2010)

Man, this is fricken awesome!


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## timmo (Jul 20, 2010)

Thanks, Colin - I missed that.

I've written to the paper will have a severe word with Cyril - I have his number!!

Medals? He means these commem ones which everyone receives - http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/photo04/RAF2/meadalsMedium.jpg

And yes - we've all been invited to receive Russian hospitality but, for one, I don't travel well. And I'd rather have Fish Chips at home!!

= Tim



= Tim


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## timshatz (Jul 20, 2010)

timmo said:


> And I'd rather have Fish Chips at home!!
> 
> = Tim
> 
> ...



And Beer?


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