# Best Intelligence Organization During the Cold War



## Amsel (Jul 19, 2009)

I am currently reading a very interesting book about the KGB called "Comrade J". It would be interesting to see some opinions and facts about Cold War intelligence agencies.

Which organization was the best?


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## Waynos (Jul 19, 2009)

Shouldn't that list include SOE? After all, they were the best, in my humble view of course


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 19, 2009)

Amsel, I hope you don't mind. I added a few others to the list. I know you had "Other" but I figured I would actually add some of the more prominent once. Only a few....

MSS - Ministry of State Security (China)
SDECE - Service de Documentation Extérieure et de Contre-Espionnage (France from until 1982)
DGSE - Directorate-General for External Security (France from 1982)
BND - Bundesnachrichtendienst (West Germany and now Germany)
Mossad (Israel)
HVA - Hauptverwaltung Aufklärung (East Germany)


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## Amsel (Jul 19, 2009)

Thanks Adler, thats much better.


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## syscom3 (Jul 19, 2009)

I voted for the Mossad. It seemed they had productive agents everywhere, where and when it counted.

The KGB was a very close 2nd.


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## Amsel (Jul 19, 2009)

The Mossad was quite efficiant it seems. The KGB also had some of the best field operators of any country. It might be that they could take advantage of the more lax societies. It was much more difficult to pentrate the iron curtain. Brutality seemed to go a long ways as well. 

The CIA probably had much better analytical abilities then the KGB but was probably hobbled(and still is) by the congress in their field operations.


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## Waynos (Jul 19, 2009)

You know, if I'd read the thread title properly, and particularly the bit about COLD war, then I wouldn't have said SOE, like a tit.


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## lingo (Jul 19, 2009)

As you may remember from my earliest posts, I served in the Intelligence services during the cold war period. I cannot say for sure who was the best as that information is not available to us and each nations files on the subject are too sensitive to reveal for many years to come (in other words when the agents and their moles are safely dead). I can give you a few impressions I gained at the time. The Russians and Americans had huge intelligence organisations, and funding and manpower was never a problem - but they were so big and unwieldy that very often they were working months in arrears of unfolding events. The Americans were every bit as surprised as the Soviets when the Berlin wall was breached. Neither had a single agency, but many overlapping (and competing) agencies wishing to expand its own' empire' at the expense of the whole. Frankly, they each had too many.
I felt the British punched above their weight - as did many of the western European countries. The Eastern Europeans were also very good at their job - the Czechs in particular. The Israelis are renowned for 'humint' (human intelligence) The Americans for signals 'sigint' and a number of nations are expert at Satellite imagery. An awful lot has happened in the 20 years since I resigned from the Secret Squirrels' and I have been away from the game for too long to give more than the odd and out-of-date impression.


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## Amsel (Jul 19, 2009)

Great info, lingo. I suspected that the Western Europeans agencies would probably be much more efficiant.


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## BombTaxi (Jul 19, 2009)

I'm surprised the Stasi has not been bought up. I would consider it an 'intelligence' agency - one which gathered intelligence on it's own people rather than those of another country or power bloc. It created a massive network of informers and amassed vast quantities of data on East German citizens. Rarely can the information-gathering apparatus of a state have been so pervasive and so invasive as the Stasi was...


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 19, 2009)

I think the Soviet (and related) intelligence had the advantage over the West of not having to follow any rules, but I have to give it to Mossad. One screw up could cost them their entire country.


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## vanir (Jul 20, 2009)

I've been reading about how the CIA set up its Soviet intelligence network. Formed during the ashes of WW2 a large number of SS and Wehrmacht officers who served in an Intelligence capacity on the Eastern Front during the war were given amnesty from war crimes prosecution to help with this...
One particular ranking Abwehr officer (Generalmajor Gehlen) was the main go-between for this network and the US Intelligence services in the early Cold War. He remained active until the 1968, from what I understand he enjoyed quite an affluent lifestyle (details are unconfirmed).
Their base was near Munich, with 3000 ex-German wartime Intelligence staff and operated under the name The South German Industrial Development Organisation throughout the Cold War (and probably beyond).

It's just interesting that one of the best Intelligence services of the Cold War era was Abwehr and the SS-Sicherheitsdienst, under CIA control of course.


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## trackend (Jul 20, 2009)

MI5 had a long reach considering its relitive size but as with nearly all the services, most of the moles and defectors etc had been active some time before the cold war really got started . Positioning was well under way as soon as the defeat of the axsis forces became fairly certain, which was IMO mid 1942.
As to which was the best each had slightly differing remits so comparing like for like is very hard but as a cold war focused group I suppose MI5 working with the CIA punched pretty good but the CIA was and is the most potant and powerfull


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## lingo (Jul 20, 2009)

trackend said:


> the CIA was and is the most potant and powerfull



The National Security Agency (NSA) is the controlling organisation in the States.


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## trackend (Jul 20, 2009)

lingo said:


> The National Security Agency (NSA) is the controlling organisation in the States.



No its not lingo its the NRA


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## lingo (Jul 20, 2009)

trackend said:


> No its not lingo its the NRA



Oh dear!  My brain cells are diminishing at an alarming rate these days. I must learn to stop relying on a failing memory!


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## stona (Jul 20, 2009)

BombTaxi said:


> I'm surprised the Stasi has not been bought up. I would consider it an 'intelligence' agency - one which gathered intelligence on it's own people rather than those of another country or power bloc. It created a massive network of informers and amassed vast quantities of data on East German citizens. Rarely can the information-gathering apparatus of a state have been so pervasive and so invasive as the Stasi was...



I'm surprised too. They did alright gathering intelligence in West Germany too. It's easy for a German to pass him/herself off as.. err..a German,maybe get a job in the President's office! Remember why Willy Brandt had to resign.

The KGB had the advantage of recruiting assets when we were on the same side as them. Men like Klaus Fuchs (the atom spy) and many idealistic Englishmen who thought they were helping the fight against facism.What may have been true in the 1930s/40s most certainly wasn't by the 1950s.
British intelligence was totally compromised by the 1960s so the idea that it "punched above its weight" is ridiculous. This also lead to a long lasting distrust and souring of the relationship between the British service(s) and those of their closest ally in the United States. Intelligence sharing was curtailed for many years.

As far as internal security services go MI5,and its allies,including the Republics G-2,, did a proper job on the IRA. Arguably the main reason it finally gave up the armed struggle and comitted itself to the political process. A senior police officer at the time once told me that no significant IRA man could "take a leak without us knowing".

Steve


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## lingo (Jul 20, 2009)

stona said:


> British intelligence was totally compromised by the 1960s so the idea that it "punched above its weight" is ridiculous. This also lead to a long lasting distrust and souring of the relationship between the British service(s) and those of their closest ally in the United States. Intelligence sharing was curtailed for many years.
> 
> 
> Ridiculous eh? You will be trying to tell us that no other countries intelligence services were compromised?
> I mean, not Russia or America, right? Or is it comforting being in denial? What Intelligence agency experience have you? If you have none then you are giving us your opinion and not dealing in facts.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jul 20, 2009)

BombTaxi said:


> I'm surprised the Stasi has not been bought up. I would consider it an 'intelligence' agency - one which gathered intelligence on it's own people rather than those of another country or power bloc. It created a massive network of informers and amassed vast quantities of data on East German citizens. Rarely can the information-gathering apparatus of a state have been so pervasive and so invasive as the Stasi was...



The Stasi has been brought up. The *HVA* was the foreign intel service of the Stasi.


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## stona (Jul 20, 2009)

lingo said:


> stona said:
> 
> 
> > British intelligence was totally compromised by the 1960s so the idea that it "punched above its weight" is ridiculous. This also lead to a long lasting distrust and souring of the relationship between the British service(s) and those of their closest ally in the United States. Intelligence sharing was curtailed for many years.
> ...


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## lingo (Jul 20, 2009)

stona said:


> lingo said:
> 
> 
> > Many intelligence services become compromised to some extent. MI6 in the post war years was penetrated at the highest levels. Kim Philby was MI6 liason to the CIA (as first secretary in the Washington embassy) from IIRC 1949.He was working for the Soviet Union for God's sake! Angleton (you look him up) was so suspicious of him that Bedell Smith (look him up too) threatened to suspend the intelligence relationship between the US and UK until he was removed. Hardly conducive to the security of the NATO alliance.All this is in the public domain and it is all fact,not opinion.
> ...


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## syscom3 (Jul 20, 2009)

The Israeli's are always tight lipped about the activities of the Mossad, but they seem to have penetrated all of their enemies political and military establishments.

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## timshatz (Jul 20, 2009)

lingo said:


> stona said:
> 
> 
> > Philby and his homosexual communst friends were a disgrace and the whole story was widely reported at the time. MI 6 is not the only British intellegence agency however so not all was lost, which is more than can be said for the agents reported to the Soviets by the toxic three. The US has been compromised from within on several occasions, as have the Soviets. Ever hear about Oleg Gordievsky? He was the highest ranking KGB agent when he defected in 1985, and he had been working for the British( MI 6 actually) since the invasion of Czechoslovakia.
> ...


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## pbfoot (Jul 20, 2009)

syscom3 said:


> The Israeli's are always tight lipped about the activities of the Mossad, but they seem to have penetrated all of their enemies political and military establishments.


and their friends


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## BombTaxi (Jul 20, 2009)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The Stasi has been brought up. The *HVA* was the foreign intel service of the Stasi.



My bad, I hadn't made the connection


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## Amsel (Jul 20, 2009)

syscom3 said:


> The Israeli's are always tight lipped about the activities of the Mossad, but they seem to have penetrated all of their enemies political and military establishments.



As well as the KGB. They were probably the largest most powerful of the services. They probably were able to penetrate Isreal as well. There are supposedly photos of a high ranking KGB officer socializing with Golda Mier. I believe there was more then 400,000 officers in the KGB, which the majority of those were stationed behind the iron curtain. That would make any espionage in the USSR a challenging task to say the least.

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## stona (Jul 21, 2009)

timshatz said:


> lingo said:
> 
> 
> > Didn't Philby end up drinking himself to death in Moscow (or somewhere over there). Guess the guilt and associated joys of living in the worker's paradise were too much for him.
> ...


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## yulzari (Oct 18, 2016)

There is the hypothesis that the SIS actually identified their moles, unlike certain other agencies, and they have a history of using them to disseminate misinformation and disinformation which relies upon the discovered moles staying in place and their plausibility to provide information maintained, even in the long term. It is, as I say, a hypothesis.


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## Zipper730 (Oct 23, 2016)

What about the GRU


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## stona (Oct 25, 2016)

yulzari said:


> There is the hypothesis that the SIS actually identified their moles, unlike certain other agencies, and they have a history of using them to disseminate misinformation and disinformation which relies upon the discovered moles staying in place and their plausibility to provide information maintained, even in the long term. It is, as I say, a hypothesis.



Putting one in charge of counter espionage against the Soviet Union and then sacrificing many, many lives to maintain him there would raise some serious moral questions....if that was true 
Cheers
Steve


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