# Most Accurate War Film



## Njaco (Apr 3, 2007)

After watching Private Ryan I was wondering what would be the next most realistic war movie? Any thoughts? And before I get slammed about how inaccurate the movie was (yes I know about the Mustangs at the end) I thought it was better researched than other movies I've seen .. like... Pearl harbor...GAK!


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## timshatz (Apr 3, 2007)

"Pearl Harbor" was terrible, great point. Was so bad I dubbed my own lines in about mid way through. Got to be a really funny movie after that. 

Tough call on accuracy. Making a movie means it has to be dramatic, keeps people interested. Things in the military are intentionally undramatic so that everyone does their jobs and does them well. Individualism is not focused on as it is in the movies. As a consequence, the technical points of a movie can be accurate while the story is out to lunch. 

A better question might be "What movies are technically accurate from a historical perspective?". Plenty of them. "Platoon" (had all the right equipment and uniforms, scenery looked right), "Thin Red Line" (same). "The Enemy Below" (ships were the stars of the movie, even if some shots were obviously models), "Glory". There are plenty of movies that are technically accurate. 

Good history is another question.


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## Njaco (Apr 3, 2007)

"Thin Red Line" made me sick. All the hype about the director and then the actors acted like they were all gonna win an Oscar. Ugh! But "historically", yer right. But direction and acting sucked on both Pearl and Red Line.


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## Thorlifter (Apr 3, 2007)

I never even watched Pearl Harbor. Ben Afflick makes me ill just looking at him. What did they do that was not accurate?


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## Heinz (Apr 3, 2007)

Out of the movies I own or have seen battle of britain to a point.


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## Njaco (Apr 3, 2007)

Well Thor, among numerous faults the most that killed me was...

An American flyer that fights in the Battle of Britain then is stationed at Pearl during the Japanese attack then gets to fly a bomber during Doolittle's raid!

It actually started for me with the cropduster in the beginning that wasn't even built at the time they were depicting!

I could have read Harry Potter and come up with the same movie.


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## Njaco (Apr 3, 2007)

Heres acouple to discuss:

Tobruk
Sahara
Raid On Rommel
The Desert Rats

Sink the Bismark
Battle of the River Platte
The Enemy Below

Battle of the Bulge
Battleground
The Longest day
A Bridge Too Far

Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo
Tora, Tora, Tora
Midway
Bataan
Sands of Iwo Jima

Platoon
Hamburger Hill
Full Metal jacket
Charlie Mopic
Go Tell the Spartans
Boys From Company C

I guess thats enough for now.


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## MacArther (Apr 3, 2007)

What about:

The Great Raid
Saints and Soldiers*
the Scicily movie with John Wayne
I second "A Bridge Too Far"

*Not neccessarily completely true story, but they do a good job of showing good battle scences and what its like being on the run.


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## timshatz (Apr 3, 2007)

Njaco said:


> An American flyer that fights in the Battle of Britain then is stationed at Pearl during the Japanese attack then gets to fly a bomber during Doolittle's raid!
> QUOTE]
> 
> The busiest guy in the US Army Airforce. If the movie were another 15 minutes longer, he would've been flying the Enola Gay over Hiroshima.


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## Njaco (Apr 3, 2007)

.... and downing a MiG over Toko-Ri with a Stinson!


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## Matt308 (Apr 3, 2007)

Hands down, Das Boot. With subtitles. Not the overdubbed version. Absolutely captivating. Next would be A Band of Brothers. And I really liked a Thin Red Line. What haunts me from that movie was the tall grass blowing in the wind. Scary as hell.


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## timshatz (Apr 3, 2007)

Njaco said:


> .... and downing a MiG over Toko-Ri with a Stinson!



I remember that flick! Boy, did that guy stink as an actor. Sad excuse for a movie.


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## Matt308 (Apr 3, 2007)

Oh. And The Bridge of the River Kwai. Excellent.


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## timshatz (Apr 3, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> Hands down, Das Boot. With subtitles. Not the overdubbed version. Absolutely captivating. Next would be A Band of Brothers. And I really liked a Thin Red Line. What haunts me from that movie was the tall grass blowing in the wind. Scary as hell.



Two good ones. Band and Das. 

Remember the scene with the blowing grass. Right after the two scouts got popped. Very haunting scene. The director (Terrence something or other) is famous for his use of nature to move the movie along. He did have some interesting ideas in there, great shots. But failed with the internal dialogue from the characters. 

In truth, it is very hard book to make into a movie. James Jones wrote a very good book (also wrote "From Here to Eternety"). "The Thin Red Line" has had 2x shots at being a movie. Neither one hit it. Same problem could be said for "Catch 22" or "Heart of Darkness" (Apocolypse Now). Great books, almost impossible to do as a movie.


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## Njaco (Apr 3, 2007)

Wow! How could I forget "Das Boot". Awesome pic.

How about semi-war:

No Man's Land
Tears of the Sun
Hunt for Red October
The Beast

Trying to keep a historically accurate list  

The War Lover
12 o'clock High
Enemy at the Gates
Stalingrad


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## Matt308 (Apr 3, 2007)

Hunt for Red October? Certainly not the movie. Book was great though. That was back when Clancy actually wrote his own books.


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## Udet (Apr 3, 2007)

Speaking of accuracy, don´t you guys think the siren of the Stukas attacking all those small ships and boats trying to cross the Volga laden with soldiers should have been way more noisier?

Having read so many things, especially about the eastern front, is that you can tell that when Stukas were aiming directly at your position, the screaming siren would not even let you hear the yelling of your fellow soldiers around you.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYEqP4_cZ5I_


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## Matt308 (Apr 3, 2007)

You don't really believe that do you Udet? A diving aircraft with a mechanical siren that is louder than your mate can shout right next to you. That would be lound indeed. And thus cannot possibly be true.


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## Torch (Apr 3, 2007)

Pork Chop Hill with Gregory Peck was pretty good also...


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## Udet (Apr 3, 2007)

Matt, i am not sure; that is why i am asking.

Did you see the movie part?

I have German footage of the eastern front, where a Stuka attack against soviet positions is under way; the German camera is located between some panzers and German troops laying on the ground waiting for the Stukas to conduct their attack.

You can see the explosions of the Stuka bombs in the distance, and it was my calculation the soviet positions under dive bombing attack were ~1.5km away from where the camera is; you can clearly detect the sirens, so it is not daring to affirm the soviet soldiers which were under attack were certainly experiencing something very very loud.

If you see Stuka attack films, there are many times when you can realize these planes pulled out of the dive real close to the ground, as it is shown in that part of Enemy at the Gates.

Just my thoughts.


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## Matt308 (Apr 3, 2007)

I'm certain that you could hear them. It is the magnitude that you wrote about that I take issue with. Perhaps, I'm just being my nerdy engineer self. Certainly the sirens were not louder than a yelling squad mate at those attack ranges. But I can tell you that as long as I could hear them, it certainly would be unnerving. Probably make you keep your head down and reluctant to return fire too.


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## Wildcat (Apr 4, 2007)

Tora Tora Tora surely deserves a mention for historical accuracy.


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## Njaco (Apr 4, 2007)

I just threw "Red October" in there as a movie that while not 'historically' accurate at least was made very well and had a very good 'suspension of belief' factor to it. kinda like "Ice Station Zebra".


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## Matt308 (Apr 4, 2007)

It was definitely a good movie. Book was better. Kinda like the movie, "We Were Young. And We Were Soldiers." Good movie. Awesome book. In fact, the best part of the book was the appendix detailing where all the characters currently resided.


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## timshatz (Apr 4, 2007)

Speaking of books and movies, think "Red Storm Rising" was a great book but would be very hard to make into a movie. Talk about your cast of thousands.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 4, 2007)

While there are plenty of movies that are historically accurate or just good movies, I really can not say what movie is them most accurate war movie. I dont think Hollywood can ever accuaratly capture the horrors of war on film.


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## Gnomey (Apr 4, 2007)

True Chris but they can only go so far in doing it. I don't think they will ever get it spot on as nothing made can every equal the real thing. Now as to realistic war movies for me it would be Das Boot (the original) and Band of Brothers although there are others that are still historically accurate but don't capture the feelings/emotions as well as those two do.


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## comiso90 (Apr 4, 2007)

"cross of iron" was great for it's time.

eastern front.. T-34's.. gotta love it:

I'm suprised how few people have seen it... dont bother renting it... just buy it!



Cross of Iron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Matt308 (Apr 4, 2007)

Hmm. Never heard of it. On US TV?


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## comiso90 (Apr 4, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> Hmm. Never heard of it. On US TV?



Cross of Iron is a 1977 drama war film directed by Sam Peckinpah and starring James Coburn,


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## Matt308 (Apr 4, 2007)

God I can't believe I don't remember that movie. I was creature of habit. Every Saturday, watching Ultra Man, Outer Limits, Creature Feature, and some war movie.

Ah, good times.


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## timshatz (Apr 4, 2007)

Matt, reminding me of college. Hitting the Rathskellar at noon to eat lunch, drink a ton of beer and watch "Creature DoubleFeature". Inevitable, it would be Godzilla doing the "Tokyo Stomp" followed by Frankenstien. 

How anybody ever got caugh by Frankenstien still amazes me. The dude was so slow, he couldn't outrun continental drift. But he always caught a couple of guys (throttled them) and ended up kidnapping the babe. She escapes (with the help of the hero, who was usually not really very cool) and Frank does a header off a cliff or something. 

Forgot most of what I learned in college, I do remember that.


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## Matt308 (Apr 4, 2007)




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## Negative Creep (Apr 5, 2007)

What about the Big Red One? Aside from the Shermans-with-bits-on-them posing as Panzers, it seems very accurate in terms of the experiences of a small squad. The director served in that unit in WW2, so he certainly knew what he was doing. Saints and soldiers is another one, a very good film with only the annoyingly cliched British character counting against it.

Come and See is supposed to be really good as well - ordered it of eBay the other dya and am looking forward to watching it


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 5, 2007)

You can historically portray a conflict but you can not portray the true horrors. In order to do that you have to smell it, breath it, live it.

Much safer to do so in the movies though.


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## timshatz (Apr 5, 2007)

Heard Sam Fuller (the guy who wrote and directed "The Big Red One") talk about making a war movie. Fuller was in the 1st Division during the war (from North Africa to the Death Camps) and had always had problems making movies for the point Adler just made. Can't live it, breath it, ect. He said (paraphrasing), "The only way to make a real war movie is to have somebody shooting at the audience from behind the screen while the movie is being shown".


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## Matt308 (Apr 5, 2007)

Haven't seen this Korean film about two brothers in Korean War, but it was compared heavily to Saving Private Ryan with respect to the effects and realism.

Taegukgi hwinalrimyeo

I think in the US it went by Tae Guk Gi.


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## comiso90 (Apr 5, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> Haven't seen this Korean film about two brothers in Korean War, but it was compared heavily to Saving Private Ryan with respect to the effects and realism.
> 
> Taegukgi hwinalrimyeo
> 
> I think in the US it went by Tae Guk Gi.





_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERBTMuwEcbU_

Also Battleship Yamoto was VERY poopular in Japan


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## comiso90 (Apr 5, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERBTMuwEcbU_
> 
> Also Battleship Yamoto was VERY poopular in Japan




_And _very POPULAR.. it was so good they crapped their pants!

LOL


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## timshatz (Apr 5, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> Haven't seen this Korean film about two brothers in Korean War, but it was compared heavily to Saving Private Ryan with respect to the effects and realism.
> 
> Taegukgi hwinalrimyeo
> 
> I think in the US it went by Tae Guk Gi.



Saw it. Ok movie. Out on DVD at Art House movie stores. A lot of drama in the movie. Too much after a while.


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## Matt308 (Apr 5, 2007)

Thanks for telling me. That's another movie I won't rent. I hate wasting my time on crappy movies.


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## Wildcat (Apr 5, 2007)

timshatz said:


> Heard Sam Fuller (the guy who wrote and directed "The Big Red One") talk about making a war movie. Fuller was in the 1st Division during the war (from North Africa to the Death Camps) and had always had problems making movies for the point Adler just made. Can't live it, breath it, ect. He said (paraphrasing), "The only way to make a real war movie is to have somebody shooting at the audience from behind the screen while the movie is being shown".



The Big red one by Sam Fuller was OK, but IMO his best war movie was Merrills Marauders


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## pbfoot (Apr 5, 2007)

There was a German made film about Staligrad and its scary and Paths of Glory by Stanley Kubrick


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## Njaco (Apr 5, 2007)

I have the Stalingrad movie. Very good. Put a good spin on it ... more that the high command didn't know what they were doing. Ending in the cellar was stretching it though.


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## timshatz (Apr 6, 2007)

Njaco said:


> I have the Stalingrad movie. Very good. Put a good spin on it ... more that the high command didn't know what they were doing. Ending in the cellar was stretching it though.



Yeah, good film in terms of being graphic. Liked the T34s running around. Decent movie.

Often wondered about that last scene in the cellar. Would the Russians have found him sooner or later? He was going to be found, but I wonder how long it would've taken.


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## Njaco (Apr 6, 2007)

Hey I can forgive Hollywood, Bollywood or wherever these come from, for embellishing a bit. Movie was still great to watch.

Wondered if anybody caught the little trick I threw in at the beginning of this thread?

"Tobruk" and "Raid On Rommel" ?


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## 7thphoenix (Apr 6, 2007)

I'd have to say "El Alamein" although it was a B grade movie it was a more accurate portrayal of that battle than the garbage produced by hollywood and the BBC. Too bad it was shot as a low budget film though.
The English version was cut to bits entire key scebes were edited out for the DVD release, the better version was the Italian version with Japanese subtitles, its the whole movie uncut as was intended.


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## Njaco (Apr 6, 2007)

Yeah I agree. One of the worst was "Battle of the Bulge"

December 1944
Ardennes

WHERES THE SNOW AND THE TREES!!!
 

Among other faults.


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## Clave (Apr 6, 2007)

Band of Brothers is pretty much the best thing ever to hit DVD... 8) 

I liked the human drama side of Enemy at the Gates as well, it was quite tense, and involving as a drama...  

The Battle of Britain is not bad also...  

I have not seen Das Boot..


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## Njaco (Apr 6, 2007)

Clave, you MUST see "Das Boot". The original version not the edited with overdubbs. Awesome!

Those that you mentioned are quite good but Das Boot is on another level.


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## Matt308 (Apr 6, 2007)

It certainly is.


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## Negative Creep (Apr 7, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERBTMuwEcbU_





I have this on DVD -its absolutely superb. Seriously violent as well; the hand to hand fighting at the end is really brutal, and it's nice to see a movie that doesn't just focus on the Americans. Ok, you could argue some bits are a little cliched, but no more so than Saving Private Ryan.


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## Matt308 (Apr 7, 2007)

I checked out some of the composites for Tae Guk Gi. The war scenes are NOT Saving Private Ryan quality, as I had originally read in paper reviews.


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## Torch (Apr 12, 2007)

Just rented Cross of Iron, I had read the book and thought that was pretty good. The movie was not bad except for the "Russian Corsairs" bombing the Germans near the end. Story about heroism and cowardnice in the trenches.


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## syscom3 (Apr 12, 2007)

"The Cruel Sea" was quite well done and accurate.

A companion piece to "Das Boot".


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## renrich (Apr 12, 2007)

I agree with" Das Boot"as what seems to be an accurate war film. Let me tell you something about" Bridge Over the River Kwai". I just finished a book about the survivors from the USS Houston and there were many personal interviews of them and bunch of Texas National Guardsmen of the 36th Div that got to work on the Burma-Siam rail road. They said the Bridge movie was the biggest bunch of crap that was ever made. First, the Japanese engineers that worked on the bridges and railroad knew exactly what to do and did not need any British officer to tell them what to do. Second, all that were interviewed said everyone did everything they could get away with to sabotage the work to the extent that when the railroad was finished and the POWs were put on the train to take them to another work camp, the first bridge they went over they all held their breath, afraid it would collapse. The sanitary conditions in the camp were so bad and the flies so bad that even though they were only fed 1/2 canteen cup of rice twice a day, if before they could eat it a fly landed on it they knew they had to throw the rice away because they would almost certainly get dysentery and probably die since they had no medicine and if you could not work the Japanese would not feed you. I thought "We Were Soldiers" was pretty realistic. I read the book and the movie followed the book pretty closely. I know Hal Moore ( the bat. cmdr. played by Mel Gibson) quite well and had many conversations with him about the book before and after the movie was made. Hal was an advisor on the movie but he said they did not pay much attention to him. Hal retired as a Lt General and he is a wonderful gentleman. His wife Julie does not look anything like Madeleine Stowe(surprise) who played her in the movie but Hal said he spent a lot of time with Mel Gibson and liked him very much. "The Pursuit of the Graf Spee" was well done. If you look at a track chart of the battle the movie replicated the battle almost exactly as it was. On top of that, one of the cruisers, the Achilles, actually played it's on role in the movie although it was at the time the movie was made called the New Delhi, having been given to the Indian Navy. Also no one has mentioned "Task Force" a movie about carrier aviation which starred Gay Cooper that had a lot of combat film in it and was realistic.


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## Wildcat (Apr 12, 2007)

I agree Renrich, the bridge on the river Kwai is a great movie, but as a history of the true horrors faced by the POW's there, it fails miserably. For a realistic movie on the horror and hardships of jungle warfare check out "Kokoda".


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## timshatz (Apr 12, 2007)

Wildcat said:


> "Kokoda".



Never heard of it. I know (or better said, I have read) about the Kokoda Trail and the battles that went on up and down it. Did not know they made a movie about it. 

What's the deal? Is it on Video? Who made it and when?


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## Wildcat (Apr 12, 2007)

timshatz said:


> Never heard of it. I know (or better said, I have read) about the Kokoda Trail and the battles that went on up and down it. Did not know they made a movie about it.
> 
> What's the deal? Is it on Video? Who made it and when?



Tim, it was released here on ANZAC day last year. It's out on DVD here but not sure if it's been released overseas yet. Good movie, though not great if you want an overall view of the battles on the track, however like I said, I believe very realistic in the jungle warfare scenes and overall misery faced by troops fighting in these environments. 
See the bottom of this thread for some scenes from the movie
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/personal-gallery/wildcats-warbirds-2094-9.html


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## timshatz (Apr 13, 2007)

Thanks Wildcat. Seen plenty of Australian flicks and they are generally well done. Thanks for the links. Look forward to watching them later today.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 13, 2007)

I think my fav has to be Das Boot. It was a very well done move and about as accurate as you get I believe atleast when it comes to Sub movies but then again I have never been stationed on a sub.


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## MacArther (Apr 13, 2007)

Anyone heard of the new movie "Little Iron Men"? Its about Japanese Americans in the the Battle of the Bulge. Just from the previews, it looks like an awsome movie, in the same range as Saints and Soldiers.


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## timshatz (Apr 13, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I think my fav has to be Das Boot. It was a very well done move and about as accurate as you get I believe atleast when it comes to Sub movies but then again I have never been stationed on a sub.



With all due respect to the Bubbleheads out there, you gotta be nutz to go into subs during wartime. Short of the Kamikaze Service, the Silent Service had the highest casualty rate of any service. For the Germans, it was something like 75% (29k/39K, depending on your sources, some go with 30K/36K). But even for the winning side it was the most dangerous assignment. The US Navy's Submariners had a 22% fatality rate. 

No way man, not me. Even when I was young and crazy, I wasn't THAT crazy.


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## comiso90 (Apr 13, 2007)

I think I could handle sub duty except for the "Hot Swaping" bunks. 

Bring on the solitude, depth charges, isolation, and creeking hull but I'm not sure I could end a 12 hour shift by jumping into a bed some stanky dude just crawled out of.


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## renrich (Apr 13, 2007)

Comis, I agree with you.


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## timshatz (Apr 13, 2007)

Hats off to you guys. Never dug anything to do with Subs. The sub types were always going on about how the subs were the greatest arm of the fleet ("There are only two types of vessels on the ocean, Subs and Targets") but they can have it. 

How do you abandon ship at a depth of 500 ft?


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## T4.H (Apr 13, 2007)

I think, "Das Boot" is perhaps one of the most accurate war films of all time. Of course with two exceptions. The inside colour of the german submarines was not dark-grey, it was white. And of course, as I know, the germans stopped the use of rivets for the construction of there submarines even before WWI. 
Both facts were well known. It was good for the dramaturgy.

I prefer the director's cut version with 208 minutes. The TV version is with 5 hours too long. And I will never forget the cool sound at the beginning, when the bow of U96 appears through the unclear water.

What do you think about "Tora! Tora! Tora!"? I think, this film is as accurate as possible. 



Hey, this was my first post!!!


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## comiso90 (Apr 13, 2007)

T4.H said:


> The inside colour of the german submarines was not dark-grey, it was white. And of course, as I know, the germans stopped the use of rivets for the construction of there submarines even before WWI.
> What do you think about "Tora! Tora! Tora!"? I Think, this film is as accurate as possible.
> 
> Hey, this was my first post!!!



Great points... fun trivia, thanks!

Tora, Tora Tora in my opinion was one of the very few films that were made with a consciousness effort to portray combatants in a fair light. It beautifully melded fact with drama... so few studios can be bothered with "facts".

I am always annoyed by the AT-6’s posing as Zeros but they couldn’t help that.

Welcome to the Forum!


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## T4.H (Apr 13, 2007)

Thanks!

I forgot "Letters From Iwo Jima".


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## timshatz (Apr 13, 2007)

T4.H said:


> What do you think about "Tora! Tora! Tora!"?
> 
> Hey, this was my first post!!!



I think Tora, Tora, Tora was actually shot as two movies. One side was shot in the US and the other shot in Japan, telling both side's perspectives. Then they were blended together. 

As far as accuracy is concerned, it is pretty much the story as most people know it.


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## timshatz (Apr 13, 2007)

T4.H said:


> Hey, this was my first post!!!



Congrats! Good first post.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 13, 2007)

There were so many funny little films made during WWII.


One of them was "Thunder Birds, 1942" which I watched this year. No combat, just a movie about training pilots for the War in Boeing Stearmans. It takes place at Thunder Bird Airfield in Arizona. The plane footage is pretty exciting with no special effect squadrons, since there was no lack of real planes to fly in those war day films. And it's in color, so the blue and yellow paint schemes are not missed like in a B/W. 

Just the storyline and characters are funny. You got a fat old rancher, Gene Autry music, a cowgirl, an aging Pilot instructer, called Steve, An English Ladystackouse and her son Peter Stackhouse, chirpy British Cadets getting used to America, Chinese cadets with little to do, nurses, gruff Commanders of the Airfield, no Kraut or Jap in sight, Fourth of July cookout, duststorms, England, Arizona, Richard Bong cameo, and all put together in a confusing mix. You never really get anyplace but the final effect actually feels lifelike. Everbody pawns in the big picture of WWII.

Have to give those filmmakers credit for optimism though. All they wanted, like many other filmmakers, was to get young people gung-ho about the war and enlist in the armed forces. 

And movies like that served that purpose admirably, perhaps as the picture below shows. 







Who knows if a little film like "Thunderbirds" helped to inspire people to fly in Boeing Stearmans, more than hatred or a desire to kill Japs? For the young woman at least, a beautiful plane might be more persuasive on her patriotic emotions than just plain revenge. 

As for the Pilot, training an attractive girl to fly isn't the worse job in the world either, and he's serving his country, even if it isn't combat or becoming an ace. 

But that time is long gone. Audiences no longer need inspirational, upbeat films about WWII. Whats the point? What we want is history, accuracy, and technicality, with a unsettling, mental drama thrown in with gore. The end result is war movies that now strive for harsh realism or fail as flops. They outdo many of those WWII 40's and 50's films in a big way, even with the limitations of screen as Adler said. 

Anyway, anybody know of an accurate WWII movie that features American Aircraft like the P-38, P-47, P-51, and not Spitfires?  

Don't get me wrong, I love Spitfires. But I think they have a better following than say the P-47 in recent films. Aside from the old film "Fighter Squadron," which I can't find anywhere, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of the Jug. 

And the Memphis Belle is about it for P-51's?

And the P-38 is never found. 

But at least the Corsairs get a role in "Flags of our Fathers." It felt you were flying the plane, just like in a video game.


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## renrich (Apr 13, 2007)

A war film that was mentioned here early on that I thought was well done was "Sahara" with Bogey. I enjoyed seeing the Grant or Lee tank. I don't believe I ever saw a tank of that model in another film.


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## comiso90 (Apr 13, 2007)

renrich said:


> A war film that was mentioned here early on that I thought was well done was "Sahara" with Bogey. I enjoyed seeing the Grant or Lee tank. I don't believe I ever saw a tank of that model in another film.



Great movie... although I never considered it a "War" film. For me it's more a human drama in a war setting.


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## Njaco (Apr 13, 2007)

Funny you should mention "Sahara" after Soundbreaker Welch? asked about films with planes. The German plane in "Sahara" was a P-51 - a "B" I believe.

I always loved the cockpits shots with the 20 inch guns on the cowling and how the tank hit it with one shot and burst of MG fire. Awesome deflection shot!

Scenes from "Tora, Tora, Tora" were used for numerous other movies about the war including "Midway". How many different planes did they have on that island?


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## Wildcat (Apr 13, 2007)

Soundbreaker Welch? said:


> There were so many funny little films made during WWII.
> One of them was "Thunder Birds, 1942" which I watched this year. No combat, just a movie about training pilots for the War in Boeing Stearmans. It takes place at Thunder Bird Airfield in Arizona. The plane footage is pretty exciting with no special effect squadrons, since there was no lack of real planes to fly in those war day films. And it's in color, so the blue and yellow paint schemes are not missed like in a B/W.



Other good ones in colour are "Captains of the clouds" where bush pilots join the RCAF and "Dive Bomber" with Errol Flynn.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 14, 2007)

I added them to my IMDB WWII movie list, so when I rent something I'll look for them! 

As I was looking them up, the site recommended to me: A Guy Named Joe (1943)

On the poster of the movie they show a couple of P-38's.

Anybody seen the film? Are the P-38's just an advertising gig? 

Sounds weird somewhat with the ghostly humour of it, but pilots are often superstitious.


Sometimes it seems, and I'm sure you agree, the best way to see WWII planes is actual footage taken of them. A lot of it is poorly preserved, but you can still see the movements and excitment of a combat that actually took place. The best footage I have seen of the "P-51D" in combat in from the war documentary "The Last Bomb" (1945). Have to thank Zeno's Warbird drive in for that.




> How many different planes did they have on that island?



They had Hellcats. Those Marines were keeping that plane a secret from the Navy!


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## pbfoot (Apr 14, 2007)

A good one that is being overlooked is called The Bridge its a german film circa the 50's 60's about a bunch of Hitler Youth kids called out from school to defend a bridge in their home town in the closing stages of the war in German its called Die Brucke


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## Negative Creep (Apr 14, 2007)

Has anybody mentioned Come and See yet? 1980's Russian film about a young boy who joins the partisans when the Germans destroy his village. Pretty brutal stuff, with lots of religious symbolism, but captivating at the same time


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## Medvedya (Apr 14, 2007)

Ohhh, Idi I Smotri. I'd say brutal would be a mild word to describe it - especially the end. 

It's almost unbearable to see without having prior warning about what you're letting yourself in for.


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## timshatz (Apr 15, 2007)

pbfoot said:


> A good one that is being overlooked is called The Bridge its a german film circa the 50's 60's about a bunch of Hitler Youth kids called out from school to defend a bridge in their home town in the closing stages of the war in German its called Die Brucke



Saw "The Bridge" some time back. Good movie, but heavy. Like "Gallipoli", good movie but one of those flicks that bothered you after it was over.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 15, 2007)

T4.H said:


> I think, "Das Boot" is perhaps one of the most accurate war films of all time. Of course with two exceptions. The inside colour of the german submarines was not dark-grey, it was white. And of course, as I know, the germans stopped the use of rivets for the construction of there submarines even before WWI.
> Both facts were well known. It was good for the dramaturgy.
> 
> I prefer the director's cut version with 208 minutes. The TV version is with 5 hours too long. And I will never forget the cool sound at the beginning, when the bow of U96 appears through the unclear water.
> ...



I agree and I too prefer the directors cut as well. For some reason I have 2 copies of it... 

I dont know why I have 2.


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## renrich (Apr 15, 2007)

Just saw a war movie on TV that was well done. "The Great Raid" was about US Army Rangers going in to rescue POWs in a Japanese prison camp in the Philipines. I read the book sometime ago and the movie stayed pretty close to the real story. As I remember the critics panned the movie which I guess tells you more about the critics than it does about the movie. It was a very patriotic movie and some of the brutality of the Japanese raised my hackles.


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## Njaco (Apr 15, 2007)

Has anybody seen "No Man's Land" about the war in Bosnia. I thought that looked pretty on target along with the tongue in cheek humour.


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## syscom3 (Apr 15, 2007)

renrich said:


> Just saw a war movie on TV that was well done. "The Great Raid" was about US Army Rangers going in to rescue POWs in a Japanese prison camp in the Philipines. I read the book sometime ago and the movie stayed pretty close to the real story. As I remember the critics panned the movie which I guess tells you more about the critics than it does about the movie. It was a very patriotic movie and some of the brutality of the Japanese raised my hackles.



That was a great movie!


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## Wildcat (Apr 16, 2007)

syscom3 said:


> That was a great movie!



Agreed, they filmed this movie about 30 minutes from where I grew up.


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## renrich (Apr 16, 2007)

I agree with youall. That movie,"The Great Raid" was outstanding. I was amazed at he quality of the action scenes and the acting was good also. I watched all of the stuff after the end with the B and W film actually shot of some survivors and it really got to me. Just goes to show that Hollywood can produce good films but I guess there is not much demand for that type of film today. I was only disappointed by the Lockheed Hudson flying over the camp. Looks like they could have found a B25. I doubt if a Hudson would have been in that theater of the war at that time.


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## syscom3 (Apr 16, 2007)

renrich said:


> I agree with youall. That movie,"The Great Raid" was outstanding. I was amazed at he quality of the action scenes and the acting was good also. I watched all of the stuff after the end with the B and W film actually shot of some survivors and it really got to me. Just goes to show that Hollywood can produce good films but I guess there is not much demand for that type of film today. I was only disappointed by the Lockheed Hudson flying over the camp. Looks like they could have found a B25. I doubt if a Hudson would have been in that theater of the war at that time.



the USN used "Hudsons" in the PTO


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## renrich (Apr 16, 2007)

Were they Hudsons or Venturas at that stage of the war? At any rate it is a minor point.


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## renrich (Apr 16, 2007)

Speaking of war films, I don't know if it was all that accurate but one of my favorite films of all time is "Zulu" Stanley Baker directed and starred in it and it was one of the early films that Micheal Caine played in. The king of the Zulus was played by the modern day king of the Zulus. Buthelezi I believe his name was.


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## Wildcat (Apr 17, 2007)

renrich said:


> Were they Hudsons or Venturas at that stage of the war? At any rate it is a minor point.



I believe the actually a/c used in real life was a P-61, but since there are obviously no P-61's flying and the movie was filmed in Oz, the Hudson (only airworthy one in the world) was probably the only option available to the film makers.


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## renrich (Apr 17, 2007)

Where actuall y was the movie filmed?


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## Wildcat (Apr 18, 2007)

On the Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia.


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## 102first_hussars (Apr 18, 2007)

I thought Flags Of Our Fathers was okay but they didnt put the battle into enough detail


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## Njaco (Apr 18, 2007)

For the most part, "Zulu" was accurate. Pastor Witt was one of the party that first sighted the Zulus and then left, not ordered off. Good site for the battle is:

rorkesdriftvc.com - The Battle


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## renrich (Apr 18, 2007)

Thank you, excellent site.


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## Torch (Apr 18, 2007)

What was the name of the movie about best friends on opposite sides in Serbia/Bosnia, the "bad guy" was an olympique shooter and the "good guy" needed to kill him,was a good movie and for the life of me I can't remember the name.


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## Torch (Apr 18, 2007)

Found it. It's called Shot Through the Heart. Was a pretty good movie, A little more drama than action but all around good.


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## syscom3 (Apr 18, 2007)

"Full Metal jacket" has to be among the most accurate war films made.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 18, 2007)

102first_hussars said:


> I thought Flags Of Our Fathers was okay but they didnt put the battle into enough detail



It is extremely accurate and the reason the battle was not more in detail is because that was not the point of the movie. Read the book and you will understand. It was about the flag and who raised it.


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## Negative Creep (Apr 18, 2007)

syscom3 said:


> "Full Metal jacket" has to be among the most accurate war films made.




Problem is you can blatentley see the battle scenes were filmed in the London Dockyards


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## syscom3 (Apr 18, 2007)

Negative Creep said:


> Problem is you can blatentley see the battle scenes were filmed in the London Dockyards



And?


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## tpikdave (Apr 19, 2007)

For me?

#1 Battleground..... It showed the pure misery of being cold and afraid. 
#2 Thin Red Line, because it showed the true depths of inhumanity in war.
#3 Pork Chop Hill, because it shows the stupidity of negotiating with inferior forces. 
#4 The movie about Vietnam they never made.


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## 102first_hussars (Apr 19, 2007)

Saving Private Ryan

especially the Omaha Beach scene


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## Negative Creep (Apr 19, 2007)

syscom3 said:


> And?




Whenever I watch it that niggling thought is always at the back of my mind. Plus there are all the parodies, which take away a lot of the original's power (see also The Shining, Silence of the Lambs etc)


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## renrich (Apr 20, 2007)

My problem with "Saving Private Ryan" is that I find it hard to believe that the men on the beach would be as clustered up as they were in the movie. The small amount of combat film that survived at Omaha beach doesn't seem to reflect that amount of crowding. The movie was spectacular however. The other flaw I see in most war films is that the actors in the films usually look much older than the young men who actually fought the battles. A for instance is "Gettysburg" which I thought was pretty realistic and thoroughly enjoyed(except for the miscreant who played Lee) The actor who played J B Hood had a gray beard. Hood was 28 years old at the time of the battle and I doubt he had a gray beard. In "Ryan" Tom Hanks did not look like the twenty something an infantry captain would have been and none of his squad looked like they were less than 30.


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## syscom3 (Apr 20, 2007)

Renrich, events like that did happen on Omaha. 

The troops under heavy fire looked for anything to protect themselves. And the steel beach obstacles were great to hide behind.


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## Njaco (Apr 21, 2007)

> renrich...._for instance is "Gettysburg" which I thought was pretty realistic and thoroughly enjoyed(except for the miscreant who played Lee_)


  

Duvall was much better cast in "Gods and Generals"


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 24, 2007)

I never thought of Martin Sheen in that term, but I do think Robert Duavall seems more like Lee. 



> #4 The movie about Vietnam they never made.



What would it be like? Something between "Full Metal Jacket" and "The Green Berets?" 

By the way, do some on here despise the attempt by John Wayne to portray Vietnam?

I know it was filmed in the Blue Hills or something.............



> In "Ryan" Tom Hanks did not look like the twenty something an infantry captain would have been and none of his squad looked like they were less than 30.



Somehow that comment quirked me. 

At least they weren't as bad off as the Greybeard Regiment from Iowa.


IOWA CIVAL WAR GRAYBEARD UNIT

The Graybeard Regiment During the Civil War, one Union regiment, the 37th Iowa Volunteer lnfantry, was largely, and deliberately, composed of old men. It was nicknamed the Graybeard Regiment. 

In 1862, the U.S. War Department authorized the formation of the 37th Infantry to show that men past draft age were willing and able to go to war. The Unit of 914 men was assembled that December at Camp Strong near Muscatine, Iowa. The oldest man was 80-year-old Pvt. Curtis King. Six men were in their 70s, including 72-year-old drummer, Nicholas Ramey. Another 136 men were in their 60s. Nearly all of the members of the regiment were over 45. 

Required to hike in the mud and sleep in the rain like other soldiers, the Graybeards were spared none of the rigors of army life. They were, however, exempted from combat duty, serving instead as guards of military prisons, railroads, and arsenals in Missouri, Tennessee, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio. Only three men were killed in action, but 145 died of disease and 364 were discharged because of physical disabilities. 

By war's end, more than 1,300 of the sons and grandsons of Graybeard members had enlisted. So the regiment accomplished its major purpose, to serve as a grand propaganda tool for recruiting.


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## Njaco (Apr 24, 2007)

The Vietnam pic I never see mentioned is "Charlie Mopic". Thought it was pretty good, along with "Boys from Company C" and "Go Tell The Spartans".


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## Njaco (Apr 24, 2007)

Oh hell, just thought of one but can't remember the name. Starred Gene Hackman as a Colonel or something that was shot down and Danny Glover guided him out along with a knowledge of Golf courses. Supposed to be based on a true story. Not a bad movie.


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## lesofprimus (Apr 24, 2007)

BAT 21 is something Im quite familiar with Jaco.... 

It is based on the true story of Bat 21B, the call sign of an EB-66 navigator, Iceal “Gene” Hambleton, who is slammed by an SA-2 just south of the (DMZ) in 1972... When on the ground Col Hambleton found himself in the midst of an invasion force of over 30,000 North Vietnamese troops.... Lieutenant Colonel Hambleton had served with the Strategic Air Command.... He carried, in his memory, intimate details of American missile forces and targets that dared not fall into enemy hands....

An immediate (SAR) effort was mounted to recover the downed airman.... Two Army helicopters rushing to his rescue were quickly shot down.... The entire 4-man crew of Blueghost 39 was lost, the second limped to an area of safety before making a controlled-crash-landing.... That crew was rescued by a "Jolly Green" helicopter and flown to safety...

As morning dawned on April 3rd, position had been marked within 30 feet by onboard LORAN... The Air Force knew where the injured survivor the the EB-66 was, but couldn't reach him because of the massive enemy force that surrounded him.... Fellow pilots began dropping mines around him...

Coast Guard Lieutenant Commander Jay Crowe descended towards the area where Lieutenant Colonel Hambleton waited.... He was met by an immediate curtain of enemy fire.... Enemy rounds literally shredded "Jolly Green 65", and it was only the courage and flying skill of the Coast Guard pilot that enabled the chopper to stay airborne long enough to return to base.... "Jolly Green 66" then followed, facing ten enemy tanks and a withering fire.... Lieutenant Colonel Bill Harris fought the controls to bring his rescue helicopter within one hundred yards of Hambleton, his gunners engaging the enemy on all sides.....

Harris' aircraft shuddered as bullets riddled his helicopter and shattered the cockpit.... Somehow Harris managed to get his badly damaged aircraft to gain altitude, then limp back to safety.... 

Before darkness fell on Monday another aircraft would take direct fire... Captain William Henderson was piloting an OV-10 FAC in support of the rescue effort.... In the cockpit behind him sat Lieutenant Mark Clark... Both managed to eject when a SAM destroyed their aircraft, landing in the same general vicinity as Hambleton.... A "triple-play" rescue for all three fliers followed....

All 3 downed airmen watched in frustration as enemy fire shattered three more helocopters, forcing them to pull back with severe damage... During the night of April 3rd, Captain William Henderson was captured by the NVA.... In just over twenty-four hours of the rescue attempt, three aircraft had gone done, five more had been severely damaged, three American rescuers had died, and a fourth had been captured..... 

On April 4th the Air Force began launching a series of air strikes in and around the Cam Lo Bridge.... On the ground, LTC Hambleton directed the fire.... So thorough was the enemy penetration in the area, of the ten A-1s that engaged the enemy from the skies over the downed airman that day, eight received battle damage.... One aircraft was totally destroyed.... It became quickly apparent that the North Vietnamese were using Hambleton and Clark as bait, drawing in the rescue forces, then systematically destroying them.....

On April 6th a total of 52 sets of American fighters and four B-52 bombers began pounding the area around Cam Lo.... Back at Da Nang, Captain Peter Chapman in Jolly Green 67 had volunteered to pilot the next rescue, despite the fact he was "short".... Amid a smoke screen and intense rocket and machine-gun fire deployed by accompanying American aircraft, Captain Chapman began to drop his rescue helicopter near Hambleton.... Enemy fire raked the chopper, smoke billowed, and Captain Chapman began to pull away, as flames started to appear... Pieces of the helo began to fall off, the aircraft floundering in its attempts to flee the area... It rolled to its side, hitting the ground in an explosion of fire that instantly sealed the fate of six brave Americans...

On April 7th an OV-10 flying in support of the continued rescue effort was shot down..... Aboard was Air Force First Lieutenant Bruce Walker and Marine Corps First Lieutenant Larry Potts.... Walker managed an initial radio contact before he began his escape, but was never heard from again..... There were later reports that Lieutenant Potts died in captivity.... His remains were never recovered and he remains one of the Vietnam War's Missing in Action....

By April 9th the 7th Air Force was in dire straits with far too many battle-damaged aircraft.... Five aircraft had been destroyed, nine Americans were dead, two had been captured, the fate of Potts and Walker was uncertain.....

On April 10th, Nail-38 (Clark) and Bat 21 (Hambleton) were advised of the NEW plan to get them out...

The true events surrounding this story were still classified at the time of the movie production... Ltc Hambleton and Lieutenant Mark Clark were rescued by Navy SEAL LT Tom Norris, Walker on the 10th, and then Hambleton on the 11th.... Norris and Vietnamese SEAL Petty Officer Nguyen Van Kiet, using a sampan to infiltrate to Hambleton's position, rescued him.... 

LT Norris was awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions.... Nguyen Van Kiet, the brave South Vietnamese SEAL, was subsequently awarded our Nation's second highest military award, the Navy Cross.... It was and is the highest honor that could be presented to a member of a foreign military force... He was the only South Vietnamese warrior of the 14-year war to receive so high an honor...






Lieutenant (j.g.) Thomas Norris was one of the greatest Navy SEALs ever deployed, and remains one of the most respected men in the SPEC-OPS community...


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## Njaco (Apr 24, 2007)

Awesome! So the movie was fairly accurate in respect to classified info at the time. I always enjoyed that pic. Hardly ever see it on lists of good war movies.


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## tpikdave (Apr 24, 2007)

It would have to show all the different snakes and bugs that killed or ate you. Other than that, I don't think a movie can really portray the horror, the boredom or the true feeling of the "it won't happen to me" thing. One bad thing was seeing a buddy reading a "dear john", or getting one over the radio via a MARS station. 


Quote: _"By the way, do some on here despise the attempt by John Wayne to portray Vietnam"?_

I hated that movie. It was stupid, but I couldn't get mad at the Duke for trying. The only fat old men over there were in air conditioned trailers.


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## pbfoot (Apr 24, 2007)

Flight of the intruder





i


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 24, 2007)

Other than that, I don't think a movie can really portray the horror, the boredom or the true feeling of the "it won't happen to me" thing.


Watching war on film just doesn't cut it, I guess. 

Even if it's an intense battle and the combatants are on the point of exhaustion, a fellah can still be lolling on the couch or chair and yet be excited and awed without feeling real discomfort or fear. It can still be numbing at least, but often it can be enjoyable to watch the fighting, instead of horrifying.

Still, historic battle movies are one of my favorites.


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## lesofprimus (Apr 24, 2007)

During the opening weekend of Platoon, I went with my father to see it.... He is a former Green Beret that did 2 1/2 tours....

During the last combat scene, my father started getting very worked up sitting there, sweating and whatnot....

He had to leave the theatre.... Is that realistic enough???


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## Watanbe (Apr 24, 2007)

I thought platoon was an exceptional film. However the best has to go to the undubbed Das Boot. It kept me on edge for the entire film which is incredible considering its length. 

For a movie that portrays the horrors of War, Kokoda is very good as Wildcat suggested.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 24, 2007)

He had to leave the theatre.... Is that realistic enough???

Yeah, and movies can be disturbing! 


Sometimes it's just good to not overwatch something too much in one day I think, then it can lose it's impact.


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## tpikdave (Apr 25, 2007)

lesofprimus 

I think your Dad had his own private demons. There was a lot of content in Platoon that could have been considered irrational, over the top, and just plain BS, and you have to remember that the people who produce this stuff have never left their comfey chairs, nor had a single bullet fired at them. Its possible that that is why your Dad was uncomfortable. I felt something similar when seeing Apocalypse Now, years later. I was disturbed seeing something so eerie and strange in a country I had been in. It was like "hey wait a minute" could that have happened without me hearing about it. People looked at us differently for a while after that movie. Your Dad was in an outfit that survived by being as close-knit as a family, for him to see some GI even in a movie, killing for the sake of killing, must have made him want to puke.


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## syscom3 (Apr 25, 2007)

tpikdave said:


> .....and you have to remember that the people who produce this stuff have never left their comfey chairs, nor had a single bullet fired at them.....



Oliver Stone was a Vietnam War infantryman who saw plenty of action.


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## Glider (Apr 25, 2007)

Watanbe said:


> However the best has to go to the undubbed Das Boot. It kept me on edge for the entire film which is incredible considering its length.



Have to go with Das Boot. I have spoken to four different British WW2 submariners, without exception and unprompted they have said that to see what life was like in a WW2 Submarine, watch Das Boot.

Thats good enough for me.


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## tpikdave (Apr 25, 2007)

syscom3

Correct....I should have said the majority of those who make these movies. I can't think of another one?


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## comiso90 (Apr 25, 2007)

tpikdave said:


> syscom3
> 
> Correct....I should have said the majority of those who make these movies. I can't think of another one?



The great director, John Ford was at Omaha beach

actors:
Eddie Albert was at Tarawa
Jimmy Stewart flew B-17's


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## syscom3 (Apr 25, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> The great director, John Ford was at Omaha beach
> 
> actors:
> Eddie Albert was at Tarawa
> Jimmy Stewart flew B-17's



Jimmy Stewert flew B24's, and was a B47 pilot in SAC. He even flew a sortie over Vietnam in a B52 as an observer.


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## comiso90 (Apr 25, 2007)

syscom3 said:


> Jimmy Stewert flew B24's, and was a B47 pilot in SAC. He even flew a sortie over Vietnam in a B52 as an observer.



He flew both:

Jimmy Stewart: Bomber Pilot - by Starr Smith
Biographies : LIEUTENANT GENERAL JAMES T. STEWART
Hometown Boy | The Jimmy Stewart Museum


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## Wildcat (Apr 25, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> The great director, John Ford was at Omaha beach



He also filmed the attack on Midway Is. Director Sam Peckinpah (cross of Iron) was in the USMC in WWII and saw combat in the Pacific. Sam Fuller (Merrill's Marauders, Big red One) also fought in Europe.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Apr 25, 2007)

John Ford had a sense of humor, even in that one.


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## tpikdave (Apr 26, 2007)

comiso90

Thats all cool, but I kinda meant specific to Vietnam, which was the war that the media fought until we lost. Its been down hill ever since IMHO. When those guys came home it was a bit different than when we came home in 68/69. Tickertape doesn't stick to your uniform like spit does.

Sorry if I rant.


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## Cyrano (Apr 26, 2007)




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## Cyrano (Apr 26, 2007)




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## Wildcat (Apr 26, 2007)

Looks good.


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## tpikdave (Apr 26, 2007)

Wish I could get it from Netflix, but no joy!


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## ToughOmbre (Apr 26, 2007)

Njaco said:


> After watching Private Ryan I was wondering what would be the next most realistic war movie? Any thoughts? And before I get slammed about how inaccurate the movie was (yes I know about the Mustangs at the end) I thought it was better researched than other movies I've seen .. like... Pearl harbor...GAK!



Tora! Tora! Tora! Very historically accurate. I know that the B-17s were Gs and the Jap carriers were American in the launch scenes, but the history was right on.


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## renrich (May 3, 2007)

Speaking of Hollywood types on active duty, there was a movie producer named Merriman(or Merriam) quite famous at one time who was quite an adventurer. Among other things he was a WW1 fighter pilot. He produced what I think is the greatest western movie ever(maybe the best movie ever) "The Searchers."


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## Negative Creep (May 3, 2007)

ToughOmbre said:


> Tora! Tora! Tora! Very historically accurate. I know that the B-17s were Gs and the Jap carriers were American in the launch scenes, but the history was right on.




Weren't most of the Zeros converted T5s as well? I do know one scene, where a taxing P40 gets hit, the detonation went wrong, and it veered way off course. So the extras aren't acting, they really are running for their lives


Edited to add

There is a bit in Pearl Harbour where a Kate gunner is waving at nearby children to get them out of the way. That bit has always struck me as unrealistic; would Japanese airmen have done such a thing?


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## DOUGRD (May 5, 2007)

Negative Creep said:


> Weren't most of the Zeros converted T5s as well? I do know one scene, where a taxing P40 gets hit, the detonation went wrong, and it veered way off course. So the extras aren't acting, they really are running for their lives
> 
> 
> Edited to add
> ...



The aircraft were modified T-6's. I saw one a couple of years after the movie was made. Very interesting Mod. As for the additional question, I wonder? After reading so many accounts of Jap pilots gunning down our pilots when they were hanging in their parachutes it makes me tend to doubt it. I read an account today of a Jap pilot trying to cut up a parachuting Marine pilot and on his third pass , before he was chased away, he did manage to cut off half of the dudes right foot. But who knows? I'd say little kids are little kids all over the world and I wouldn't harm one intentionally, not even a Raghead one.


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## DOUGRD (May 5, 2007)

Negative Creep said:


> I do know one scene, where a taxing P40 gets hit, the detonation went wrong, and it veered way off course. So the extras aren't acting, they really are running for their lives
> That's pretty interesting, I never heard that before. To me ,that's some of the most interesting history about a movie. What really happened while it was being made. I read an article about the movie "The Fugitive" starring Harrison Ford and the scene where they staged the train wreck...Those weren't models but the real thing! The production company found out it was cheaper to buy real ( retired ) locomotives and wreck them than to have a model scene fabricated. Another interesting tidbit... After the wreck when Harrison Ford looks up from under the bridge... In the original film there was a man looking back down at him. Trouble was no one knows who he was. He wasn't a member of the cast or crew and he wasn't seen afterwards. Now that's weird!


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## tpikdave (May 5, 2007)

If you think about it, planes could be replaced, pilots were a little more difficult to get on either side. So it would make good economical sense to waste the pilot as well as the plane. Cold, but I sometimes wonder what the real instructions were?


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## Negative Creep (May 5, 2007)

DOUGRD said:


> To me ,that's some of the most interesting history about a movie. What really happened while it was being made.




You'd love the trivia sections of The Internet Movie Database (IMDb) you can spend days learning useless crap on there!


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## tpikdave (May 6, 2007)

Negative Creep said:


> You'd love the trivia sections of The Internet Movie Database (IMDb) you can spend days learning useless crap on there!




Thats a terrific site. I go there to verify just about any fact or actor "on the spot" .


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## DOUGRD (May 6, 2007)

Negative Creep said:


> You'd love the trivia sections of The Internet Movie Database (IMDb) you can spend days learning useless crap on there!



Thanks! I'll go check it out.  I like aircraft trivia too, like why are the wings on the f4u "bent"?


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## Negative Creep (May 6, 2007)

DOUGRD said:


> Thanks! I'll go check it out.  I like aircraft trivia too, like why are the wings on the f4u "bent"?



Isn't that because they could fold when in storage and not get in the way of the prop?


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## tpikdave (May 6, 2007)

F4U Wings....

The way I read it was that the Corsair was designed around the 2,804 cubic inch Double Wasp R2800 engine of 1,850 hp (over 100hp per cylinder). This engine needed a huge (13ft) prop to take advantage of the thrust that that horsepower could deliver. 

All carrier landing gear has to be very strong to withstand the dynamics of a carrier deck landing and a short, strong gear was required. There wouldn’t be enough room in the wing to hold a longer gear anyway. And, if the prop were chopped shorter, much of the horsepower of the R2800 would be wasted.

Therefore: the bent wing or inverted gull shape was used so the designers got the short gear, and the long prop. Really a great example of "form follows function".


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## renrich (May 9, 2007)

That is exactly right about shortening the landing gear. A collateral benefit of the inverted gull wing of the Corsair was that the intersection of the wing and the fuselage was at 90 degrees so there was no fairing need to smooth the intersection(as in most a/c.) This low drag feature was one of the reasons the Corsair had such good performance. When you think about it a mid wing configuration on a cylindrical fuselage(like the Corsair has) will accomplish the same low drag intersection but then you make the landing gear longer which is bad for carrier landings.


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## renrich (May 9, 2007)

The negative on the inverted gull wing was that the structure for the center section of the wing was a complicated,large and heavy casting. The intriguing, to me, factor about a/c design, is that all WW2 a/c were a melding of compromises. One can study all the successful designs and pick out the priorities of the designers(and those of the service ordering the airplane) The one common denominator of almost all the premier fighters in WW2 was that they all had a great engine. Either a DB inline, a BMW radial, a RR inline or a PW radial.


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## Cyrano (May 9, 2007)




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## tpikdave (May 9, 2007)

Wonder why they couldn't have put the spinner on for a bit more realism? CAF right?


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## renrich (May 10, 2007)

Probably because of engine cooling.


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## tpikdave (May 11, 2007)

That makes sense. The AT6 was never meant for high performance anyway.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (May 11, 2007)

The Texans nose turns down more.


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## Wildcat (May 11, 2007)

Here's one that fly's in Australia. note it has a spinner.
source www.warbidz.net


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## renrich (May 11, 2007)

Good pictures, are you saying the A6M is a converted T6 because it looks like a real Zero?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 11, 2007)

Yeap there are not eneogh Zeros around flying so many Texans have been converted to look like Zeros for use in movies and so forth. Just like they took the Ha's and made them look like Luftwaffe 109s for the movies.


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## renrich (May 11, 2007)

In the pictures submitted by Wildcat, I believe that is a real A6M, tail # 288. If you look at the photos, all the details of the supposed Zero look correct but the real tipoff to me is that the leading edge of the "Zero's" wing meets the fuselage just behind the engine cowling whereas the SNJ's wing leading edge is back a foot or so from the cowling. A modified SNJ would not relocate the wing to impersonate a Zero.


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## pbfoot (May 11, 2007)

Just look at the exhaust it's even easier


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## Wildcat (May 11, 2007)

renrich said:


> In the pictures submitted by Wildcat, I believe that is a real A6M, tail # 288. If you look at the photos, all the details of the supposed Zero look correct but the real tipoff to me is that the leading edge of the "Zero's" wing meets the fuselage just behind the engine cowling whereas the SNJ's wing leading edge is back a foot or so from the cowling. A modified SNJ would not relocate the wing to impersonate a Zero.



Nope, definately a modified T-6 that was used in the Tora film. The only real Zero in Australia is a static one in the AWM.


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## Wildcat (May 11, 2007)

And not forgetting the Val and Kate replica's also made for the movie. The Kate was made with the tail section from a BT-13 and the forward section from a T-6.


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## MacArther (May 13, 2007)

Now, if they can make all these reproduction versions of the planes for movies, why can't they start a new production line of certain planes for the rich collectors and displays?


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## pbfoot (May 13, 2007)

Because your very limited for how much you can modify a T6


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 14, 2007)

MacArther said:


> Now, if they can make all these reproduction versions of the planes for movies, why can't they start a new production line of certain planes for the rich collectors and displays?



In Germany they have. Flugwerk is building Bf 109s and Fw 190s.


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## comiso90 (May 14, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> In Germany they have. Flugwerk is building Bf 109s and Fw 190s.



Full scale?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 14, 2007)

Here are some pics. They are now starting to work on a P-51D as well.


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## comiso90 (May 14, 2007)

There are plenty of P-51's around. I'd like too see more obscure planes


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 14, 2007)

Well flying 190s and 109s are pretty obscure.


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## comiso90 (May 14, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Well flying 190s and 109s are pretty obscure.



Certainly, but my reference was to P-51's...

The 109's and 190's are cool but instead of the P-51, I'd rather see a JU-87, MC-205, Ki-61.... something REALLY rare.

But I guess not many people want to buy those... they will sell a ton of mustangs.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 14, 2007)

I think a Ju 87 would be awesome. I would love to see a 88.


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## comiso90 (May 14, 2007)

There's a beautiful JU-87 in Chicago...

have you seen this?

JU88.net


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## comiso90 (May 14, 2007)

http://www.ju88.net/restoration2/workshopapril04.jpg

http://www.ju88.net/restoration2/2/salvage-2.jpg


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 14, 2007)

No I have not seen those yet. The only Ju-87s that I have seen are ones that have not been restored.

I have seen a restored Ju 88 at a museum about an hour from where I live.


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## comiso90 (May 14, 2007)

*The recovered JU-88 has a great story:*


The date is late night/early morning on June 29th 1942.Willi Voss, a married man [4] and one of the students that are on guard at the school, discovers something. He sees light from one of the cockpit in a Ju88A-5 and goes for inspect it further. Inside the Plane he discovers a friend of his. This particular friend has earlier tried to get Willi to desert together with him for unknown reasons. The next things happens quick, he's threatened with a pistol and are set to fly the Plane to UK. [5]

The alarm is sounded when the Plane takes off. We don't know what kind of air defence Greifswald had, probably it had the standard mix of 20 mm "Vierling" and 37 mm's, including MG's based on tripods throughout the Airfield Perimeter. The surprise is probably complete, since the flak crew's didn't get in any decsive hits on the Plane.

Typical German Light Flak Emplacements with 37mm Flak and MG34.

Probably, MG's at the airfield had also been shooting at the Plane. Two bullets holes was later found, one had gone through the gasoline tank, and out! Luckily this was not a tracer bullet! The next bullet was found embedded in the wing compartment between the wings and the fuselage. The bullet were of 7x62 caliber, typical of MG34 or MG42. 

Over the Baltic ocean there are thick fog and making navigation very difficult, one of the Students must have been through some blind navigation, since they managed a while to keep the right course. The bad weather continoues over Denmark. Staying only some few meters in search for landmarks, they're running a high risk flying into something. The reason why they steers north is probably to avoid crossing Northern Germany and Denmark because of the flak contested areas around Kiel and Wihelmshafen, and (unknown to them) using the blind holes of the German radar coverage around the Swedish coast. 

The Germans used their network of Radars to follow the Deserters before the Crashlanding

Back on the ground, german radar positions followed the deserters on the screens. The radar station, and center for several Night fighter units, in Grove (Karup), Denmark gives the order to either force the Plane to land, or shot it down before it reaches UK. But the bad weather forced the Germans to cease most of the Flights. 
Map over the actual area. Copyright: "Nordwarts" by Reichsluftministerium, 1940.

At 4:15 CF+VP was in vicinity of Skagen, north in Denmark. The Plane had been tracked from 2:30 to 2:50 over Seeland in Denmark. Order was given to shoot the Plane down, this order was given by Generalmajor Krueger back in Greifswald.[6] It's not certain who was flying the Plane, was it Willi Voss or was he tied to the seat? For unknown reasons,, the Plane changes course to Norway instead of UK. The Norwegian coast at Telemark is sighted. Both Pilots still believe that they had managed to get to UK safe. [7]

When the Plane is over Kilsfjorden, the fuel situation is critical and the RPM of both the engines are decreasing. They begin a short turn over the fjord, and settles for a place not far from the mainland. The back canopy is released as standard procedure during crash landings. 

A Ju88 banks over near the French coast. Somewhat similar to how CF+VP maneuvered the last minutes before the crashlanding in Kilsfjorden. 

They make a low pass over some houses at the beach before touching down on the water, almost crashing into some apple trees. The Pilot made a textbook example of a three point landing on the fjord, without damaging the Plane slightly [8]. The lifeboat is released back in the Plane, but today the big mystery, is what happened to the lifeboat, since none of the eyewitnesses saw this boat. Also a mystery is the existence of the german fighters over Kilsfjorden that day, did they intercept the Plane before the crash landing? [9] 

Aase Heibø and Liv Anna Haslum are cleaning the cottage belonging to Dr. Krohn before the summer vacation. Suddenly they hear a loud noise and looks out of the window. They sees a Plane making a low round over the Fjord and finally ditches down on the water. After the water had calmed down, Aase sees two guys climbing out of the cockpit.

The women takes a small boat at the cottage [10], and rows as mad out to the Plane to rescue the Pilots. Willi Voss is easily rescued. The other one, who probably couldn't swim, drowns only few meters away from the hands of Aase. 

Back in the cottage, Willi gets dry clothes and warm soup. The Pilot suit is hanged out to dry out, this was to become a faithful decision. Willi get shocked when he hears that he have landed in Norway instead of UK. When the girls tells about the fate to the co-pilot, Willi only replies with something like that the dead has taken a step further, and he [Willi] is finished. The girls noticed that Willi carried with him a brown envolope, that they had also seen him with it, standing on the wing. This brown envelope was most probably thrown into the fireplace, was heated up to warm the wet aviators. At the same time Arne Sandaas from the neighboring cottage comes in. He has witnessed the whole incident. Arne has a longer conversation with Willi. Sandaas offer Willi to hide him until the war is over. Willi rejects this proposal and says he doesn't have a chance anyway. 

Later a group of german soldiers with an officer [11] discovers the cottage and Pilot's suit. Willi is arrested and Arne Sandaas gets notification about later questioning by the officer. 
Arne Sandaas, as one of the prime witnesses, was later called in for interrogation in Oslo. Sandaas and Sturmbannführer Wegner [12], the guard appointed, was called to Berlin. It was a long and eventful trip for Sandaas [13], as a member of the resistance he made a detailed report for London. When they arrived at the Court Martial at January, 12. 1943, they were quite surprised to know that Willi Voss had been executed the previous day.

Even today the circumstances around this execution is very sketchy at best. Today we believe that the deceased was a spy for England [14] and had connections on the rocket base at Penemünde. Willi had also observed a briefcase which the Co-Pilot had brought with him. This particular briefcase was never found in the wreck, most probably the brief case was flushed away when the Plane sank. A map over the location where CF+VP ditched. 


We know also that Willi Voss was married and lived in Cologne. There is a possibility that there are still living relatives after Willi. Today there are little or nothing known about this case. This because the papers from the RKG was moved in 1945 to the state archive in Moscow. 

[4] Willi Voss gave his marriage ring to one of the girls that saved him, the fate of this ring is not known. He also told them that he was from Cologne. 

[5] Why UK was the destination instead of neutral Sweden, which was much closer and easier to navigate to, can explained to Sweden's policy to repatriating deserters back to Germany. This was probably known by Wehrmacht personnel from rumors and by showcases published by OKW to discourage desertion. The policy of returning deserters was not changed after the defeat at Stalingrad. Another reason could have been the probability not have being able to contact British consulate authorities in Sweden, thus jeopardizing the mission.


[9] According to Guttorm Fjeldstad, eyewitnesses have told about shooting before the crash, this has yet to confirmed with surviving German archives, if they still exist. The bullets found in the Plane can either come from landbased MG's or from a airborne Fighter.

[10] This cottage still stands today.

[11] The origin of these soldiers is not known.

[14] A similar case happened one year later in Norway. A german nightfighter pilot, Heinrich Schmitt, defected with a Ju88 and its crew (one was forced) on May 23rd 1943. The Ju88R-1 are now preserved at RAF Hendon.


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## renrich (May 14, 2007)

Adler, That replica FW190 is one beautiful airplane. Are they really building those and the BF109. Sounds like a good idea and could be commercially viable.


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## Wildcat (May 14, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> In Germany they have. Flugwerk is building Bf 109s and Fw 190s.



There are actually quite a few replica's being built. There are the ones Adler mentioned plus the Me 262's, pretty much all the Yak3/9's are new built a/c from Russia and in the US 3 Oscars are being built.


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## Wildcat (May 14, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> The 109's and 190's are cool but instead of the P-51, I'd rather see a JU-87, MC-205, Ki-61.... something REALLY rare.



Cosmo you'll be glad to know that there is at least 1 maybe 2 Ki-61's being restored in Australia. As for rare bombers check out this site. Welcome to the Beaufort Restoration Home Page Not to mention a few years down the track we will be able to see possibly 3 Vultee Veangeance's flying again!!!!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 15, 2007)

renrich said:


> Adler, That replica FW190 is one beautiful airplane. Are they really building those and the BF109. Sounds like a good idea and could be commercially viable.



Yes it is a company here in Germany call Flugwerk that is building them.


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## Negative Creep (May 15, 2007)

Regarding planes in films, wouldn't it be cheaper for the makers just to use CG instead?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 15, 2007)

I think you will find that many films are using CG, It is too hard to get the shots that you need most of the time.


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## rogthedodge (May 15, 2007)

I'd have to go with Das Boot too.

Private Ryan certainly had the most realistic sound of weapons / bullets I've ever heard (apart from the real thing) - had me ducking! 

I do struggle to get past the gratituitous dig at Monty though and conveniently forgetting he was in overall charge of ALL the invasion forces at that stage. For instance they could have discussed the US's decision to not take any of Hobart's Funnies with them!

Not mentioned but one of my faves is the Aussie /'Nam film -'The Odd Angry Shot'. 

Basically not a lot happens apart from drinking beer, taking the **** out of each other, slagging off the REMF's, and a great 'blue' between the Aussies and the neighbouring American unit - in a 1.30 hr film there's about 10 mins of combat, probably reflects most soldiers' experience of service


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## comiso90 (May 15, 2007)

Negative Creep said:


> Regarding planes in films, wouldn't it be cheaper for the makers just to use CG instead?



That will work for many scenes but for others, it will not. Especially scenes where actors need to interact with the aircraft.

Even big budget movies like "Sky Captain" and "300" do not rotoscope (mixing live action with animation) convincingly.

CG excels at showing the nearly impossble


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## timshatz (May 15, 2007)

Maybe not accurate but good flicks:

-The Wind and the Lion
-Lawrence of Arabia
-Sand Pebbles


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## Senator (May 15, 2007)

As a high school history teacher, who does a class on WWII, I always show Saving Private Ryan, Das Boot, Several episodes of the Band of Brothers. I also show a few scenes from Pearl Harbor because its crap and all the kids have seen it. I stop it alot and point out the problems. I love Tora, Tora, Tora but it is a little slow for high school kids. Interested in seeing some other opinions.


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## rogthedodge (May 15, 2007)

Sounds like an interesting class! I hope you point out that the Monty slur in SPR is unwarranted and inaccurate,

You could accuse him of many things; politically - niaive, egotistical, bombastic, racist, etc etc but 'overrated' is just plain wrong - to control such a force and achieve, precisely, his D+90 phase lines shows just how good a general he was.

Personally I'll never forgive Spielberg (military experience zero, and with a great debt to the UK re: the final solution) for including that line. 

Indicative IMO of US revisionist historians' prejudices and playing to the gallery - it's not a point made in the best book on D-day (the Longest Day) but trotted out often in Stephen E Ambrose's lesser tome.

Just my hobby horse - but you did ask for other opinions.


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## comiso90 (May 15, 2007)

rogthedodge said:


> You could accuse him of many things; politically - niaive, egotistical, bombastic, racist, etc etc but 'overrated' is just plain wrong - to control such a force and achieve, precisely, his D+90 phase lines shows just how good a general he was.



Just cause a character uttered the line, it does not mean Speilberg intended to relate a fact. It reflected, true or false the opinions of many.

Monty redeemed himself in Marketgarden however....


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## pbfoot (May 15, 2007)

The film that looked pretty accurate to me was "Away All Boats" about a US Naval Assault ship in South Pacific


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## tpikdave (May 15, 2007)

I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted his job. Command decisions almost certainly put a general in a position that is Godlike. It takes a lot of courage to rise to that rank in wartime. I am sure there have been some bad ones (I worked for one) but for the most part they did a good job. I thank the Brits and all their ranks Ausies etc.) for my freedom as well as my own military. I think Monty was a whole lot more effective than "Westy".


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## Njaco (May 15, 2007)

Was the Monty slur really unwarranted? I mean, did the common US soldier at that time have that idea of Monty or later? Its just possible a few GIs were of that opinion regardless of the facts. Same as the Mustangs at the end. Could've been Typhoons but didn't most GIs just assume that anything in the air was a P-51.

The film shows that Spielberg did his homework and did his best to make an accurate film regardless of revisionist history. Only film I know that accurately portrayed a squad, i.e. one BAR man and the Capt. had the Thompson, not to mention the only close facsimile of a Tiger tank in a movie.

Spielberg loves war movies, his first was an air force flick as a child. I don't see him "playing to the gallery".




> Monty redeemed himself in Marketgarden however....


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## tpikdave (May 16, 2007)

Well, most guys just packing weapons and doing what they are told (GI's) don't stop to consider any leadership other then the next highest non-com that is screaming at him to save his life or to get his ass in motion. Its just not that complicated. Boot camp pretty much suppresses your individuality and for a good reason. If you are being fired upon, the last thing you should do is any sort of complicated thinking. You should rely on your training and your instincts to save your ass or or your buddy's ass. 

Leave the thinking to the generals.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 16, 2007)

Well this is going to be cool.

The veterans that were portrayed in the series Band of Brothers along with the actors that portrayed them will be here at the airfield that I work at for 2 hours next tuesday to take pictures and sign autographs.

I am going to take my copy of Band of Brothers and get it autographed and get photos with the veterans themselves together with the actors.


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## comiso90 (May 16, 2007)

Thats cool..

Back in 94, I met a bunch of the surviving "Doolittle Raiders". I wish I woulda had them sign something


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## Njaco (May 16, 2007)

Awesome, Adler! Hope you can post the pics.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 16, 2007)

I will post them, dont you worry about that.


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## timshatz (May 16, 2007)

Cool man, looking forward to seeing the pics.


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## rogthedodge (May 16, 2007)

Njaco said:


> Was the Monty slur really unwarranted? I mean, did the common US soldier at that time have that idea of Monty or later? Its just possible a few GIs were of that opinion regardless of the facts. Same as the Mustangs at the end. Could've been Typhoons but didn't most GIs just assume that anything in the air was a P-51.



Not wishing to hijack the thread but yes it was. Why include it? 

'Over-rated'? Presumably that's why he was trusted with overall command of the entire landing 

Why not mention that the Brits Canadians were facing virtually all the German armour? Why not mention the British paradrop had been pretty good, whereas the US drop was a near disaster?

US landings would have benefitted from the 'Funnies' but the commanders refused and the troops paid the price

Or even why not mention Eisenhower had never seen any action at all?

These are just 4 facts that could have replaced an opinion. It was a cheap shot.

It just confirmed that lie (and let's face it most young people's opinions are formed by films) that the landings were a US success backed up by a few brits and cannucks who just got in the way. The implication was clearly that Monty was just in charge of part of the landings and those 'other allied' units weren't doing their bit. A 10 minute trawl of the 'net will easily find this now stated as truth.

As I said it's strange that it's not in the Longest Day but prevalent in Stephen Ambrose's much more partisan re-hash 40+ years later.

Many soldiers hold opinions, just because they do doesn't warrant their inclusion - for example I don't recall the 'N' word being included whereas it was in widespread usage among white Americans at the time. etc etc


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## Njaco (May 16, 2007)

But I have seen movies where slurs such as the "N" word and others are used to keep with the reality and accuracy. We're not taliking global politicians and avid Newsweek readers here. These were plain and simple GIs who had been fighting with Monty since Africa and were aware (although not told the whole truth) about the tension between Patton, the Brass and Monty. I saw that as an appropriate line to use. May not have been true, as much scuttlebutt wasn't, but approriate for that time and place within those soldiers.



> Many soldiers hold opinions, just because they do doesn't warrant their inclusion


Including such lines does become necessary if you want to create a character. Otherwise we get something akin to "THX 1138".

and isn't there some slight disdain for an ally? My boss is better than your boss, etc. Patton and Eisenhower were loved by the troops for the most part. Any others surely wouldn't be as good. Its called morale.  

I don't see any political or revisionist meaning behind the line other than to give a feel of GIs at that time. I'm sure GIs had no inkling of those 4 facts you state even though afterward they were made clear. Its just a line in a movie.

I do agree that history is sorely lost upon the younger generation. Reminded me of just last night during the Tonight Show and Jay Leno's Jaywalkers a young girl couldn't recall the Santa Maria. When I was a kid that stuff was drilled in us! Its a shame that what they do see is alot of bitchin from the A-Bomb display in DC to Ken Burns being sued. History is tossed aside and lost.


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## Bernhart (May 16, 2007)

I loved the movie myself(private Ryan) and just looked at the comment as something a GI might of said of Monty, even now you still hear how the americans won the war and the brits and canucks just sat on thier collective buts. There is a thread on this about this very topic.


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## tpikdave (May 16, 2007)

Hmm. I wonder who doled out the beach assignments. The Americans sure got shafted by someone? Utah and Omaha sucked.


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## rogthedodge (May 17, 2007)

Interesting point - I don't know. 

I'd always assumed it was due to their proximity to Cherbourg / Brest which would be needed to handle the resources directly shipped from the US.

I know Monty's plan was that UK/Canada forces would provide the blocking force while the US built up their forces and used that room to manuveur for the southern flank thrust.

Certainly not beaches I'd have chosen to land on!


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## plan_D (May 17, 2007)

_Utah_ did not "suck". It was no less ideal for landing than any of the British/Canadian beaches. _Omaha_ was the only drawback to the entire landing area but it was a necessary evil; to join the two beach-heads.. It was only made worse by the DD Shermans being released too early; eliminating all armour support for the assault troops on the beach. 
There's several people you can write to if you want to complain about how the U.S got "shafted" - Eisenhower, Mallory or Montgomery will all be happy to reply to your queries.  

The only reason it seems that the British and Canadians got it "easier" - albeit, the Canadians lost just as many as the U.S on _Utah_ - it because the Commonwealth forces was because the DD Shermans made it to shore and provided support.

And rogthedodge pretty much hit the nail right there on the head; the U.K forces were confronted by Caen - a large city, not ideal for armoured thrusts - the "open" land was entrusted to the larger, better supplied and more mobile U.S forces to swing around to capture Cherbourg for a better supply base - then move south. And flank the opposing German forces ... meanwhile the British would slug it out through Caen - ...the whole slugging it out through Caen bit took longer than expected ...but hey, Germans were freakin' awesome at any army action they ever attended.


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## tpikdave (May 19, 2007)

It all sucked.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 19, 2007)

Well it looks like I will not be going to meet the Band of Brothers actors and veterans on Tuesday. I have to go and have some medical stuff done on tuesday and wont be able to make it.


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## tpikdave (May 19, 2007)

Crewchief:

Good luck on that, Can't you postpone so you could see them. 

I'm off to the VA on Wed.


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## Njaco (May 19, 2007)

Hope everythings ok.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 19, 2007)

Its nothing serious at all but quite painful. An old re-occuring problem. I would really love to go and see the guys and get autographs but I have to take care of myself as well and Tuesday was the earliest apointment that I could get.

Hopefully a friend of mine will go though and I will give them my camera and my copy of Band of Brothers.


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## Njaco (May 19, 2007)

Sorry to hear. Make sure any autographs have your name! Friend did that once for me at a football function and it was his name on my pennant! Well, I'm gearing up for the airshow next weekend and I've secured a camera. Will get some pics and post to ease the suffering.


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## T4.H (May 31, 2007)

We forgot one important film, perhaps the most important:

"Im Westen nichts Neues" -> "All quit on the western front"
Book from "Erich Maria Remarque".


Of course, the black and white one from 1930! 

And I'm living in Osnabrueck...


One of the best anti- war films:

"Die Bruecke"
A story about some childs, who have to defend a bridge at the end oft the war. And how they die. 
But you can't call it accurate.
They have hat only the money to rent one tank, the two others were mockups, you can see the truck wheels.


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