# The Iron Cross....



## Lucky13 (Feb 19, 2018)

Rather excellent explanation!

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## parsifal (Feb 19, 2018)

thanks for sharing jan.


I always think of that classic line in the movie 'Cross of iron" ...."Let me take you to where the iron crosses grow!!!"

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 20, 2018)

Here is an original Iron Cross 2nd Class from my collection.

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## parsifal (Feb 20, 2018)

Do you know the provenance of that iron cross adler?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 20, 2018)

No unfortunately I do not.


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## parsifal (Feb 20, 2018)

Still, very impressive. 

my stepfather was awarded an iron cross in the advance to Stalingrad. I don't know what class I'm afraid. he sold it after the war for food.

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## Alf (Mar 9, 2018)

I wish to contribute to this threat by showing my 1813 2nd class cross.






Alf

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## mikewint (Mar 9, 2018)

The Blue Max and Iron Cross with swords and my Clam Shell Luger holster

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 9, 2018)

If those two medals were actually authentic, you would have a hefty emergency fall back plan...

Nice replica’s though. Same with the holster.


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## Wurger (Mar 9, 2018)

Yep.


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## mikewint (Mar 9, 2018)

Purchased from a local estate sale I've no clue to their age. I cleaned them up and located new ribbons but you are more than likely correct. As to the holster it is stamped. My fallback guns are always loaded and ready.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 9, 2018)

mikewint said:


> Purchased from a local estate sale I've no clue to their age. I cleaned them up and located new ribbons but you are more than likely correct. As to the holster it is stamped. My fallback guns are always loaded and ready.
> 
> View attachment 485508



Your medals are not authentic. For the Pour Le Merite, the clasp hook part is the give away.

The holster is a reproduction, and you can tell by the stitching.

Very well done though, and nothing wrong with that. As long as you did not pay authentic prices. A Pour Le Merite in that condition would go for about $40,000. A Knights Cross with OL and Swords would go for about $25,000. (Without swords and OL they go for about $12,000 to $18,000 depending on condition).

Reproductions like these sell for $29.99 each on ebay...

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 9, 2018)

And here is your exact holster minus the reproduction skull and eagle for sale for $29.99. Even with the exact stamp.

GERMAN P08 LUGER HOLSTER marked "OTTO SINDEL BERLIN 1938"

I have actually been collecting for 28 years, so I have gotten pretty educated in how to pick out reproductions and fakes. The market is flooded with knockoffs coming out of Russia.

A few companies in Russia got a hold of dies, and have been making new productions selling them as authentic WW2 productions. You have to be very careful.

I now only buy from reputable and verified sources.


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## mikewint (Mar 9, 2018)

Paid more than $30 but not much more, BUT nothing like the prices you quoted. They were pretty dirty and the ribbons were shot but no one knew the exact age or their history at the sale. The old guy was a WWII vet


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 9, 2018)

mikewint said:


> Paid more than $30 but not much more, BUT nothing like the prices you quoted. They were pretty dirty and the ribbons were shot but no one knew the exact age or their history at the sale. The old guy was a WWII vet



I guarantee you they are a reproductions. Especially the Pour Le Merite. The hook clasp is wrong. With the KC you can tell by the thickness of the swastika and the overall finish on the edges.


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## Wurger (Mar 9, 2018)

The Luger replicas offered by the net have the stamps on holsters too. Here is the genuine set of the Luger P 08 Parabellum found in 2013 in Poland. The holster is dated 1940 while the Luger is of 1939. As you may see it is of very good condition although the holster leather shows the age . Sorry Mike but your holster and gun look too fresh to be 79 year old.
















pic siurce : Oryginalny Luger P 08 Parabellum

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## mikewint (Mar 9, 2018)

Chris I have no doubt whatsoever that you are correct and I have no idea as to their true origin. Post war souvenirs sold to GIs?
There was a big industry in Vietnam selling VC flags smeared with monkey blood.


Wurger said:


> genuine set of the Luger P 08 Parabellum


That gun is a stainless steel Mitchell Luger made in 1993 by Aimco and has never been fired. They were made for about 8 years or so and are a semi-collectors item. My real one is in a sealed gun safe.


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## Wurger (Mar 9, 2018)

I see.


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## pbehn (Mar 9, 2018)

To me, medals belong with the people they were awarded to and their descendants or regimental or other museums, I have my father and an uncles medals, I wouldn't want anyone elses.

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## parsifal (Mar 9, 2018)

Wurger that luger and the holster are in exceptionally good condition. Do you have any other details on its history, both during and after the war.I am interested to know what its wartime service might have been, but also how the hell it got to this point in such excellent condition....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 9, 2018)

pbehn said:


> To me, medals belong with the people they were awarded to and their descendants or regimental or other museums, I have my father and an uncles medals, I wouldn't want anyone elses.



I don’t disagree with you, however, it is their medals to do with as they please. If they want to sell them, that is their choice. As a collector I will gladly pay for them. Whether they are on display in a museum, or in my house is irrelevant. 

You also are ignoring the fact that many of these medals were never issued. More medals were produced then awarded. Just look at the Purple Heart. We have millions in surplus that were never issued in WW2, and are still in stock for issuing today.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 9, 2018)

mikewint said:


> Chris I have no doubt whatsoever that you are correct and I have no idea as to their true origin. Post war souvenirs sold to GIs?
> There was a big industry in Vietnam selling VC flags smeared with monkey blood.



They were both most likely produced in Russia, and flooded into the market. That is were most were made to pass as real ones and sold to collectors. Actually I think they are not even thoughs. Probably the ones made for reenactors.

That or they were produced at one of many of manufacturers in the US and England that make them for Reenactors. They make them quite well.

In fact I just found your two medals sold as sets on Ebay starting at $49.00. Made for reenactors.

Usually the ones from Russia are made to look old, as they are trying to pass them off as originals, in order to sell them for several thousand.


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## parsifal (Mar 9, 2018)

I do not consider myself a collector, and have no idea and no inclination to sell or divest myself of these medals. I have acquired these medalsfrom family members and in-laws. I am told that even the copies are quite valuable, simply because they are authentic to the extent of having been made in the USSR. Even the copies are quite old, being at least 40 years of age. 








Order of the Red Star (copy):

The Order of the Red Star was awarded to soldiers of the Soviet armed forces including the NKVD forces, employees of the State Security Committee and members of the Internal Affairs bureau. It could sometimes be awarded as a unit citation to to units, warships, associations, enterprises, institutions and organizations; as well as occasionally to military personnel of foreign countries


for personal courage and bravery in battle, for the excellent organization and leadership in combat that contributed to the success of Soviet troops;
for successful operations of military units and formations which resulted in the enemy suffering considerable casualties or damage;
for outstanding service in ensuring public safety and the security of the State Border of the USSR;
for courage and valour displayed during the performance of military duties, or, in circumstances involving a risk to life;
for exemplary performance of special command tasks and other outstanding deeds committed in peacetime;
for great contribution in maintaining the high combat readiness of troops, excellent performance in combat and political training, in the mastery of new combat equipment and other services associated with strengthening the defensive might of the USSR;
for merit in the development of military science and technologies used in training of the Armed Forces of the USSR;
for merit in strengthening the defence capabilities of the socialist community.[6]
The Order of the Red Star is worn on the right side of the chest and when in the presence of other orders of the USSR, placed immediately after the Order Of the Patriotic War 2nd class. If worn in the presence of Orders or medals of the Russian federation, the latter have precedence.[7]







Order of the Great Patriotic War 2nd Class (copy)

According to wiki:

“The Order was established on 20 May 1942 and came in first class and second class depending upon the merit of the deed. It was the first Soviet order established during the war, and the first Soviet order divided into classes. Its statute precisely defined, which deeds are awarded with the order, e.g. shooting down three aircraft as a fighter pilot, or destroying two heavy or three medium or four light tanks, or capturing a warship, or repairing an aircraft under fire after landing on a hostile territory, and so on, were awarded with the first class. It was also given to some allied troops and commanders, including western allies. Altogether, over 324,903 of the 1st class and 951,652 of the 2nd class were issued during the war. Until 1985, the total number reached about 1,370,000.

In 1985, during the celebration of the 40th anniversary of the victory in the Great Patriotic War, it was decided that all surviving veterans of the war would be awarded either 2nd or 1st class of the Order, and about 2,054,000 first class and 5,408,000 second class were issued then.[1]

As of January 1992, the total number of all awarded Orders was 2,487,098 first class and 6,688,497 second class variants”.















Soviet Medal of Valiant Labour during the Great Patriotic War (Type 1 or possibly Type 4) (real)

Established on 6 June 1945 to commemorate the massive effort of the labour force to defeat fascist Germany. Awarded to all who worked in the industrial sector for at least a year between 1941 and 1945 or at least six months if they were disabled and worked for 6 months. Some 16.4 million issued, made of copper, this is a type 1 because it has a with a soldered ring. Type 2s had a U-shaped ring, type 3 was flat and type 4 was part of the medal.


If it is a type 1 it is considered slightly rare







Chest Pin Badge Soviet Guards(real?)

The pin badge was incredibly popular and respected by the military.

The reserve and retired servicemen of the Guard units continue to wear it even now. It is worn on the full dress and casual clothes first on the right side.

The right to wear the pin badge was given to the servicemen who served in the military units received the honorary title of the Guard. This status used to be assigned for special services in battle and heroism. After 1943 the Guards pin badges began to be attached to battle flags. Then they began to place the image of the pin badge on military equipment.

The pin badge is made of a goldish metal with enamel in the form of an oval laurel wreath. On the upper part of it there is a weaving ruby-red banner with fringe and the inscription in gold letters: “Guard”. On the white background in the center there is a red faceted five-pointed star holding the spear-like staff of the banner. At the bottom of the wreath there is a plate with the inscription: “USSR”.

On the back of the pin badge there is a screw for fastening it to the uniform.

The Red Banner is one of the main Soviet symbols of revolutionary struggle.

The Red Banner of Victory is the symbol of state sovereignty of the USSR and the unbreakable alliance of workers and peasants in their struggle to build the communist society.

The laurel wreath is a symbol of devotion to duty, valor and glory of the Soviet soldiers.















My Grandfathers WWI medals

After the outbreak of World War One, 7th Light Horse Regiment was formed at Liverpool and Holsworthy, near Sydney in October and November 1915, as part of 2nd Australian Light Horse Brigade. My grandfather signed up at Holsworthy, after he and his wartime friend (whom I only know as “Doyle”) drove some hundreds of “whaler” horses for army use from Ayrshire Downs station. This in itself was a feat seldom achived, and remains unsung except in the family.


The first commanding officer was Lt Col J. M. Arnott of 11th Light Horse (C.M.F.) and Major G. M. Macarthur-Onslow of 9th Light Horse (C.M.F.) was appointed 2nd-in-command.


The Regiment arrived in Egypt on 1st February, 1915 and in May, the Brigade was ordered to Gallipoli as a dismounted force, the 7th disembarking on the 19th. From then on it was in the fighting until the evacuation of the Peninsula in mid-December. For a period, the squadrons were distributed to the battalions of 3rd Infantry Brigade; later the Regiment operated as a complete unit. It was at such historical places as Bolton's Ridge, Tasmania Post, Chatham's Post, Balkan Pits and Lone Pine.


During August, Lt Col Arnott was evacuated sick and was succeeded in command by Major (later Lt Col) Macarthur-Onslow. After Gallipoli, the Light Horse were re-horsed in Egypt and 2nd Light Horse Brigade was allotted to Anzac Mounted Division, with which the 7th Regiment remained until the end of hostilities. In Egypt, Sinai and Palestine, it gained battle honours and the following remarks by Lt Gen Sir Harry Chauvel, who commanded the Desert Mounted Corps, are appropriate: "At the Battle of Romani it was largely due to its stubborn defence and spirited counter-attack, under the leadership of Lt Col G. Macarthur-Onslow that the victory was so complet”


At the first Battle of Gaza, it was this Regiment that led the Anzac Mounted Division through the night to its position in rear of the city and which captured the new Commander of the Gaza Defence, who was on his way up to take his command. During the Battle of Beersheba and the pursuit which followed, the Regiment sustained the fine traditions it had already established for dash and gallantry. In the raids across Jordan and throughout the long summer of 1918 in the Jordan Valley, it bore its share of the fighting and the hardships, from the bitter cold of Gilead in mid-winter to the scorching heat of Jericho in July.


Under Lt Col J. D. Richardson, it played a brilliant part in the final victory which destroyed three Turkish Armies and pushed turkey out of the War."


Decorations and awards gained by the Regiment were as follows: CMG - 2; DSO - 5; MC - 8; Order of the Nile - 4; DCM - 8; MM - 20; Serbian Medal - 5; Mentioned in Despatches - 41; Complimentary Mention (Anzac) - 1; Mentioned in Divisional Orders (Anzac) - 1.


The following are the Battle Honours awarded to the Regiment, only those in block letters being borne on the Guidon which was received in 1928 (see later): Anzac, DEFENCE OF ANZAC, Suvla, SARI BAIR, Gallipoli, 1915, ROMANI, EGYPT, 1915-17, GAZA-BEERSHEBA, El Mughar, Nebi Samwil, JERUSALEM, JORDAN (ES SALT), JORDAN (AMMAN), MEGID

As a postscript, of the 830 men who enlisted at the same time as my grandfather, he was the only survivor who emerged from the war uninjured (if you could describe it that way….he suffered from very severe psychological issues for the rest of his life).


1914-15 Star Service Badge – 7th Light Horse regiment AIF (real)

This bronze medal was authorized in 1918. It is very similar to the 1914 Star but it was issued to a much wider range of recipients. Broadly speaking it was awarded to all who served in any theatre of war against Germany between 5th August 1914 and 31st December 1915, except those eligible for the 1914 Star. Similarly, those who received the Africa General Service Medal or the Sudan 1910 Medal were not eligible for the award.

Like the 1914 Star, the 1914-15 Star was not awarded alone. The recipient had to have received the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. The reverse is plain with the recipient's service number, rank, name and unit impressed on it.

An estimated 2.4 million of these medals were issued


The British War Medal, 1914-18 (Real)

Established on 26th July 1919.

Also known as _'Squeak'_.

The silver or bronze medal was awarded to officers and men of the British and Imperial Forces who either entered a theatre of war or entered service overseas between 5th August 1914 and 11th November 1918 inclusive. This was later extended to services in Russia, Siberia and some other areas in 1919 and 1920.

Approximately 6.5 million British War Medals were issued. Approximately 6.4 million of these were the silver versions of this medal. Around 110,000 of a bronze version were issued mainly to Chinese, Maltese and Indian Labour Corps. The front (obv or obverse) of the medal depicts the head of George V.

The recipient's service number, rank, name and unit was impressed on the rim.


The Allied Victory Medal (Real)

Also known as 'Wilfred'

It was decided that each of the allies should each issue their own bronze victory medal with a similar design, similar equivalent wording and identical ribbon.

The British medal was designed by W. McMillan. The front depicts a winged classical figure representing victory.

Approximately 5.7 million victory medals were issued. Interestingly, eligibility for this medal was more restrictive and not everyone who received the British War Medal ('Squeak') also received the Victory Medal ('Wilfred'). However, in general, all recipients of 'Wilfred' also received 'Squeak' and all recipients of 'Pip' also received both 'Squeak' and 'Wilfred'.

The recipient's service number, rank, name and unit was impressed on the rim.

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## Alf (Mar 10, 2018)

If I may include my 2 1813 Eks. one full size and the other Prinzen size which is not common as its' big brother.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 10, 2018)

Very nice.


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## Alf (Mar 10, 2018)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Very nice.


Thanks mate


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## pbehn (Mar 10, 2018)

I worked with a guy who collected memorabilia, he had a huge collection of caps and cap badges from all sorts of WW2 regiments, even Hungarian Romanian, Polish and Russian stuff. His other collection was swords. I will never forget picking him up at his house and him walking out with a suitcase and the biggest fffing sword you have ever seen. He spent his time in the office in Scotland buffing it with wire wool. It's was the longest sword ever issued to the British army cavalry, so big that as a personal weapon to someone off a horse it would be useless, it got some very, very strange looks from people seeing old Brian carrying it in and out of the hotel and works office.

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## Wurger (Apr 18, 2018)

parsifal said:


> Wurger that luger and the holster are in exceptionally good condition. Do you have any other details on its history, both during and after the war.I am interested to know what its wartime service might have been, but also how the hell it got to this point in such excellent condition....



According to the Police website the Luger was found by a worker while disassemblying a roof of a house in a village near Tychy town , Poland. Then he took that find to the Police station. The gun was sent to a lab for test. No farther info provided. IMHO the Luger could have been hidden there at the end of war or just after that. The Tychy town is located at the Silesia so one the German soldiers or just resident could do that. Of course we can't exclude Polish people as well.

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## vikingBerserker (Apr 19, 2018)

Cool stuff gents.


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