# Best British jet to send to Korea 1950-53?



## Admiral Beez (Mar 8, 2022)

Was there any British jet fighter that could be competitive in the Korean War?


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## Thumpalumpacus (Mar 8, 2022)

I don't think they had anything on a par with the Mig-15 or the F-86 at the time for fighter service. Maybe the Canberra for bombers?


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## Admiral Beez (Mar 8, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> I don't think they had anything on a par with the Mig-15 or the F-86 at the time for fighter service. Maybe the Canberra for bombers?


The F-86 was superlative and gets all the attention, but the US also sent to Korea the Lockheed F-80 Shooting Star and F-94 Starfire, Republic F-84 Thunderjet, Grumman F9F Panther, and McDonnell F2H Banshee. Are Britain’s jets of 1950-53 so far behind all these?


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## Thumpalumpacus (Mar 8, 2022)

Admiral Beez said:


> The F-86 was superlative and gets all the attention, but the US also sent to Korea the Lockheed F-80 Shooting Star and F-94 Starfire, Republic F-84 Thunderjet, Grumman F9F Panther, and McDonnell F2H Banshee. Are Britain’s jets of 1950-53 so far behind all these?



I don't know, could the Hunter or Sea Vamp hang?


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## buffnut453 (Mar 8, 2022)

The Hunter didn't end service until 1954. The Venom entered service in 1952 and had the following performance figures:

*Maximum speed:* 640 mph (1,030 km/h, 560 kn)
*Range:* 1,080 mi (1,740 km, 940 nmi)
*Service ceiling:* 39,400 ft (12,000 m)
*Rate of climb:* 9,000 ft/min (46 m/s)
*Wing loading:* 56.17 lb/sq ft (274.2 kg/m2​)
That beats the Panther in speed and rate of climb but the Panther had longer range (by 360 miles) and a higher service ceiling (by 3,400 ft). The Venom beats the P-80 and Banshee in everything except service ceiling (both the P-80 and Banshee had an approx 7,000 ft advantage). I could go on...but at least the Venom seems to have been pretty comparable to contemporary US jets (F-86 excepted).

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## Admiral Beez (Mar 9, 2022)

The RAAF flew the Gloster Meteor F.8 in Korea. Is this aircraft comparable to the Lockheeds?


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## Admiral Beez (Mar 9, 2022)

Thumpalumpacus said:


> I don't know, could the Hunter or Sea Vamp hang?


It’s too bad the British took so long to get their jets operational or never pursued many of their better designs. Some of them would have given the MiG-15 a good fight. For example, the swept wing Hawker P.1052 first flew in Nov 1948, eleven months after the first MiG-15.

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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 9, 2022)

Admiral Beez said:


> The RAAF flew the Gloster Meteor F.8 in Korea. Is this aircraft comparable to the Lockheeds?


In what role?


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## buffnut453 (Mar 9, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> In what role?



It was something of a mish-mash. The 77 Sqn crews were primarily trained in ground attack but when they arrived in Korea, the USAF assigned them as escorts for B-29s. Unsurprisingly, given the lack of operational experience in air combat, coupled with the inferiority of the Meteor to the MiG-15, it didn't excel. After relatively heavy losses (often, the Meteors were confronted with superior numbers of MiGs), they were withdrawn and used for airfield defence before, eventually, being reassigned to ground attack.

This website has some good detail and photos of the 77 Sqn Meteors in Korea:

https://mikesresearch.com/2020/12/25/gloster-meteor-jet-in-wwii-korea/
The link includes some hair-raising stories, and at least one photo, of heavily damaged Meteors making it back to base. Overall the Aussie Meteor drivers did impressive work but, sadly, their tale is largely forgotten (not unlike that of the 1st Bn, Gloucester Regiment at the Battle of the Imjin...but I digress).

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## Graeme (Mar 9, 2022)

Admiral Beez said:


> The F-86 was superlative and gets all the attention



The RAAF begged for the Sabre - they never wanted the Meteor. Lieutenant General Stratemeyer told the RAAF there was "no possibility" of acquiring the Sabre prior to 1954.


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## Admiral Beez (Mar 12, 2022)

Graeme said:


> The RAAF begged for the Sabre - they never wanted the Meteor. Lieutenant General Stratemeyer told the RAAF there was "no possibility" of acquiring the Sabre prior to 1954.


I wonder if the RAAF ever tried to buy the Saab 29 Tunnan or Dassault Ouragan. Both entered service in time for Korea.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 12, 2022)

Graeme said:


> The RAAF begged for the Sabre - they never wanted the Meteor. Lieutenant General Stratemeyer told the RAAF there was "no possibility" of acquiring the Sabre prior to 1954.


Well that was short lived, IIRC he was replaced for medical reasons in 1952. I believe the first CAC Saber flew in 1953. The rest is history.


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## Graeme (Mar 12, 2022)

Hi Joe.
I've assumed Stratemeyer was referring to *spare* Sabres not being available for the RAAF and also the SAAF until 1954. So that part would be true?
It was Wackett behind the curtain paving the way for the home-produced Sabre - first production CA-27 Sabre Mk.30 flew 13th July 1954. Deliveries began in August 1954 and the final Avon-Sabre was handed over in December 1961.


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## Graeme (Mar 12, 2022)

Admiral Beez said:


> I wonder if the RAAF ever tried to buy the Saab 29 Tunnan or Dassault Ouragan. Both entered service in time for Korea.



They're not mentioned in official histories.

I do see the Hawker P.1081.
As well as the Grumman Panther.

And the very optimistic CAC CA-23.









CAC CA-23 - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 12, 2022)

Graeme said:


> Hi Joe.
> I've assumed Stratemeyer was referring to *spare* Sabres not being available for the RAAF and also the SAAF until 1954. So that part would be true?


Perhaps? IIRC I believe the licensing agreement was in place in 1951 with North American. SAAF operated F-86s in Korea but I think they got there after Stratemeyer was gone and obviously before 1954.



Graeme said:


> It was Wackett behind the curtain paving the way for the home-produced Sabre - first production CA-27 Sabre Mk.30 flew 13th July 1954. Deliveries began in August 1954 and the final Avon-Sabre was handed over in December 1961.
> 
> View attachment 661126


From Wiki - "The prototype aircraft (designated CA-26 Sabre) first flew on *3 August 1953*. The production aircraft were designated the CA-27 Sabre and first deliveries to the Royal Australian Air Force began in 1954. The first batch of aircraft were powered by the Avon 20 engine and were designated the Sabre Mk 30. Between 1957 and 1958 this batch had the wing slats removed and were redesignated Sabre Mk 31." Ref: Wilson, Stewart (1994). _Military Aircraft of Australia_. Weston Creek, Australia: Aerospace Publications. p. 216.

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## Graeme (Mar 12, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> SAAF operated F-86s in Korea but I think they got there after Stratemeyer was gone and obviously before 1954.



Thanks for that Joe. I didn't realise South Africa got their hands on the Sabre before the conflict ended.






The South African Air Force


Privately run, unofficial website on the South African Air Force. It is maintained by myself during my (limited) spare time so please read the Disclaimer. I hope you enjoy the experience and visit again soon. All suggestions are welcome - Dean Wingrin



www.saairforce.co.za





So I wonder if Australia was expecting too much of the Americans in 1950 in acquiring the Sabre as a 'loaner' or for sale? Maybe if we had waited a little longer the Meteor may not have been required?

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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 12, 2022)

Graeme said:


> So I wonder if Australia was expecting too much of the Americans in 1950 in acquiring the Sabre as a 'loaner' or for sale? Maybe if we had waited a little longer the Meteor may not have been required?
> 
> View attachment 661146


Don't know if politics came into play, money or just poor decision making. No doubt the Avon Sabre was probably the best of the lot!

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## Graeme (Mar 12, 2022)

buffnut453 said:


> The Hunter didn't enter service until 1954.



Hi Mark.
Even then, the early models weren't well received, so I've read. Here's part (he wrote a long letter! ) of an interesting letter to the editor, Air International September 1979, by a Mr Bob Broad of Craven Arms Salop, outlining the Hunter's early faults from his flying experience. I can post more if interested.

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## MiTasol (Mar 12, 2022)

yes please


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## Admiral Beez (Mar 13, 2022)

Graeme said:


> So I wonder if Australia was expecting too much of the Americans in 1950 in acquiring the Sabre as a 'loaner' or for sale?





FLYBOYJ said:


> No doubt the Avon Sabre was probably the best of the lot!


What was better the CAC Sabre or the Canadair Sabre?


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## MiTasol (Mar 13, 2022)

I think the Aussies will say their one and the Canadians their one. Both are large countries with dispersed air bases but the climate is totally different and may be a factor that the Canadians built for and the Aussies did not need to.

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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 13, 2022)

Admiral Beez said:


> What was better the CAC Sabre or the Canadair Sabre?


The Mk 32 Saber from CAC was a little faster, had 2 30mm cannons, and had the same external armament. The CAC Saber was heavier, the Canadair Saber had a slightly higher service ceiling. I'd go with the CAC Saber because of the cannon armament.

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## Graeme (Mar 13, 2022)

MiTasol said:


> yes please


Sorry mate - dunno how to make a pdf.
Here goes.











Cheers!

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## MiTasol (Mar 14, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> The Mk 32 Saber from CAC was a little faster, had 2 30mm cannons, and had the same external armament. The CAC Saber was heavier, the Canadair Saber had a slightly higher service ceiling. I'd go with the CAC Saber because of the cannon armament.



with only two guns they will have the punch if they work as planned. I seem to remember that in Wackett's memoirs there were lots of issues with those guns in the Sabre but it is many years since I read it.


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