# Emotional Challenge



## billrunnels (Mar 16, 2018)

During the many months of training the thought of flying the first mission was buried in the back of my mind. Even on arriving at the 303rd Bomb Group on February 1, 1945 the thought remained dormant as we were still in a training mode. However all would change when the day came to step out of the training mode into the real world of combat. That day for me was February 14, 1945. I stepped into the squadron headquarters hut to view the assignments for the 15th. The name Lt. Howard C. Lacker, our pilot, appeared. We just entered the combat world. I do not have words to describe my feelings at that moment but everything from this time on would be a first. It started with a restless night, a touch on my shoulder and a soft voice saying "Lieutenant, it is time", being cleared by an MP to enter the briefing room, hearing target for today is Dresden, breakfast with fresh eggs and no coffee, dressing for the sustained cold of altitude flight, arriving at the hardstand, receiving command "start engines", taxing to runway, seeing end of runway pass under nose of aircraft on take off, crossing enemy line, "bombs away", return flight, feeling warmth of lower altitude, sighting Cliffs of Dover, landing and return to hardstand, dropping out of nose hatch to ground. A feeling of accomplishment prevailed at this time. I did it! The routine had been successfully planted in my mind for the missions to follow. What a challenging and rewarding day.

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## pbehn (Mar 16, 2018)

Bill, about how many were like you on that mission, doing it for the first time?


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## billrunnels (Mar 16, 2018)

pbehn said:


> Bill, about how many were like you on that mission, doing it for the first time?


We were the only new crew in our squadron. I don't think they assigned more than one per squadron. I should point out that a seasoned pilot was in the left seat and our pilot in the right on this first flight. Our copilot did not make the trip.

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## pbehn (Mar 16, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> We were the only new crew in our squadron. I don't think they assigned more than one per squadron. I should point out that a seasoned pilot was in the left seat and our pilot in the right on this first flight. Our copilot did not make the trip.


I bet you had a bit of a party when that was all over.


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## Spokes (Mar 16, 2018)

Thanks so much for sharing Bill. I just registered and stories like yours add to it being a real pleasure to visit this site.


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## billrunnels (Mar 16, 2018)

pbehn said:


> I bet you had a bit of a party when that was all over.


A burden had been lifted from my shoulders. I am sure I was stepping a little higher at the Officer's Club that night.. At age 19 I proved to myself that I could function successfully under the stress of combat.

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## billrunnels (Mar 16, 2018)

Spokes said:


> Thanks so much for sharing Bill. I just registered and stories like yours add to it being a real pleasure to visit this site.


Welcome to this great website. I hope your association will be as enjoyable as mine. Your comment is appreciated.


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## airminded88 (Mar 16, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> During the many months of training the thought of flying the first mission was buried in the back of my mind. Even on arriving at the 303rd Bomb Group on February 1, 1945 the thought remained dormant as we were still in a training mode. However all would change when the day came to step out of the training mode into the real world of combat. That day for me was February 14, 1945. I stepped into the squadron headquarters hut to view the assignments for the 15th. The name Lt. Howard C. Lacker, our pilot, appeared. We just entered the combat world. I do not have words to describe my feelings at that moment but everything from this time on would be a first. It started with a restless night, a touch on my shoulder and a soft voice saying "Lieutenant, it is time", being cleared by an MP to enter the briefing room, hearing target for today is Dresden, breakfast with fresh eggs and no coffee, dressing for the sustained cold of altitude flight, arriving at the hardstand, receiving command "start engines", taxing to runway, seeing end of runway pass under nose of aircraft on take off, crossing enemy line, "bombs away", return flight, feeling warmth of lower altitude, sighting Cliffs of Dover, landing and return to hardstand, dropping out of nose hatch to ground. A feeling of accomplishment prevailed at this time. I did it! The routine had been successfully planted in my mind for the missions to follow. What a challenging and rewarding day.



"Lieutenant, it is time"... Haunting words, wouldn't you say Bill. That moment of reckoning where all what you have go through in training will be put to the test in the skies over Europe.
Another piece of powerful narrative, the kind that gave me a very detailed glimpse of that fateful day in your USAAF career and your life.
Much has been written about Feb. 14th 1945, Dresden, the RAF and the USAAF but I wont pass up this opportunity to ask a question to a veteran who was there: How did Dresden look from above when the USAAF arrived over the city?
Thank you for your invaluable insight Bill.

Cheers,

Erick

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## pbehn (Mar 16, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> A burden had been lifted from my shoulders. I am sure I was stepping a little higher at the Officer's Club that night.. At age 19 I proved to myself that I could function successfully under the stress of combat.


That is a right of passage for young men as old as man himself, it made much more of a mark on history than the traditional killing of a wild boar. I think every man has that time or moment when they stopped being a boy or a youth and became a man.

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## billrunnels (Mar 16, 2018)

airminded88 said:


> "Lieutenant, it is time"... Haunting words, wouldn't you say Bill. That moment of reckoning where all what you have go through in training will be put to the test in the skies over Europe.
> Another piece of powerful narrative, the kind that gave me a very detailed glimpse of that fateful day in your USAAF career and your life.
> Much has been written about Feb. 14th 1945, Dresden, the RAF and the USAAF but I wont pass up this opportunity to ask a question to a veteran who was there: How did Dresden look from above when the USAAF arrived over the city?
> Thank you for your invaluable insight Bill.
> ...


Erick.....I didn't see a thing. There was a solid cloud layer below us. However, the drop must have been good. The strike report simply read "the city is dead". These words have haunted me over the years.


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## Crimea_River (Mar 16, 2018)

No words....


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## Zipper730 (Mar 16, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> Erick.....I didn't see a thing. There was a solid cloud layer below us.


I would have thought you'd have just seen smoke because of all the combustion going on below...


> However, the drop must have been good. The strike report simply read "the city is dead". These words have haunted me over the years.


The city was dead on the early hours of the 14th, there was another USAAF raid in the 14th, and then by the time you were there there was basically little left


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## fubar57 (Mar 17, 2018)

They bombed a railway yard on the 14th, hardly a city destroyer. Click on the image to enlarge


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## billrunnels (Mar 17, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> They bombed a railway yard on the 14th, hardly a city destroyer. Click on the image to enlarge
> 
> View attachment 486188



thanks for sharing this information,


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## fubar57 (Mar 17, 2018)

Your welcome Bill. I got it here...Eighth Air Force Historial Society click on History in the header and select 8thAAF Chronology.


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## billrunnels (Mar 17, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> Your welcome Bill. I got it here...Eighth Air Force Historial Society click on History in the header and select 8thAAF Chronology.


Thanks


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## airminded88 (Mar 17, 2018)

Zipper730 said:


> I would have thought you'd have just seen smoke because of all the combustion going on below..



A solid overcast could keep billowing columns of smoke from reaching higher altitudes.
If I remember correctly Hamburg was clear the morning the USAAF arrived after the RAF had bombed the city the previous night and the colums of smoke could be seen rising close to their altitude.


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## airminded88 (Mar 17, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> Erick.....I didn't see a thing. There was a solid cloud layer below us. However, the drop must have been good. The strike report simply read "the city is dead". These words have haunted me over the years.



Thank you Bill.
How long would approximately take the bomber stream to reach Dresden?

Cheers


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## billrunnels (Mar 17, 2018)

airminded88 said:


> A solid overcast could keep billowing columns of smoke from reaching higher altitudes.
> If I remember correctly Hamburg was clear the morning the USAAF arrived after the RAF had bombed the city the previous night and the colums of smoke could be seen rising close to their altitude.


The smoke probably added to the density of the clouds The referenced clouds extended over that entire region not just Dresden.

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## billrunnels (Mar 17, 2018)

airminded88 said:


> Thank you Bill.
> How long would approximately take the bomber stream to reach Dresden?
> 
> Cheers


Mission data: Air time 8 hours 40 minutes round trip ( about 4 hrs to get there), bombing altitude 25,600 ft, carried 16 250 lb High Explosive bombs, had 141 P-51 fighter escort and the flak was meager and inaccurate.

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## MIflyer (Mar 17, 2018)

One B-17 navigator described how on one mission the target was obscured so they asked for directions to another target. They heard that Bonn was in the clear and asked for directions to get there. But the navigator realized that he had been listening to Beethoven's music the night before and the back of the record sleeve said that he was from Bonn. He couldn't bomb Beethoven's home town! So he found another city in the clear to bomb. Postwar, Bonn was chosen as West Germany's capital because of the small amount of damage it had suffered from the war.

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## billrunnels (Mar 17, 2018)

MIflyer said:


> One B-17 navigator described how on one mission the target was obscured so they asked for directions to another target. They heard that Bonn was in the clear and asked for directions to get there. But the navigator realized that he had been listening to Beethoven's music the night before and the back of the record sleeve said that he was from Bonn. He couldn't bomb Beethoven's home town! So he found another city in the clear to bomb. Postwar, Bonn was chosen as West Germany's capital because of the small amount of damage it had suffered from the war.


Interesting story. At our mission briefings we were given the primary and secondary target names also the names of "targets of opportunity " to be considered in the event the first two were not available due to weather conditions. We could not pick just any target. I witnessed the bombing of a small village by a squadron of B-17s. I can still see the church steeple tumbling up in the air. The village had no military value. The bombing was uncalled for. Apparently that squadron could not hit the assigned targets and wanted to destroy something.I reported the incident on return to our base.


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## airminded88 (Mar 17, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> Mission data: Air time 8 hours 40 minutes round trip ( about 4 hrs to get there), bombing altitude 25,600 ft, carried 16 250 lb High Explosive bombs, had 141 P-51 fighter escort and the flak was meager and inaccurate.



Quite an undertaking for the 303rd BG taking the fight so deep in the heart of the Third Reich.
I'm sure those P-51s, if you happened to sight some, looked like guardian angels for the big friends!

Cheers

Erick


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## airminded88 (Mar 17, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> Interesting story. At our mission briefings we were given the primary and secondary target names also the names of "targets of opportunity " to be considered in the event the first two were not available due to weather conditions. We could not pick just any target. I witnessed the bombing of a small village by a squadron of B-17s. I can still see the church steeple tumbling up in the air. The village had no military value. The bombing was uncalled for. Apparently that squadron could not hit the assigned targets and wanted to destroy something.I reported the incident on return to our base.



Did you find out if the incident was punished or at least reprimanded?

Cheers


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## billrunnels (Mar 17, 2018)

airminded88 said:


> Quite an undertaking for the 303rd BG taking the fight so deep in the heart of the Third Reich.
> I'm sure those P-51s, if you happened to sight some, looked like guardian angels for the big friends!
> 
> Cheers
> ...


They sure did.


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## billrunnels (Mar 17, 2018)

airminded88 said:


> Did you find out if the incident was punished or at least reprimanded?
> 
> Cheers


No. I have my doubts that anything was done. However, I was compelled to report it. I felt we should be above that sort of thing even in times of war. I had no qualms about fighting the military but thought the civilian population received more anguish than they deserved.

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## MIflyer (Mar 17, 2018)

Did you ever hear about that incident where a box of B-17's bombed park in Brussels when the lead lead bombardier was using his bomb sight to check for drift and apparently set the switches wrong and the bombs went on their own?


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## billrunnels (Mar 17, 2018)

MIflyer said:


> Did you ever hear about that incident where a box of B-17's bombed park in Brussels when the lead lead bombardier was using his bomb sight to check for drift and apparently set the switches wrong and the bombs went on their own?


I have not heard that one before. Was the target in or near Brussels? If so they probably were on the bomb run and he made a last second drift correction which flipped the bombs to the side. From 25,000 feet you could flip them a considerable distance. The policy I followed was to make corrections down to 5 seconds before bombs away. However, if it was a squadron drop his correction would not have effected the flight of the bombs from the other aircraft. I have a feeling he sighted the wrong target.


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## Zipper730 (Mar 18, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> They bombed a railway yard on the 14th, hardly a city destroyer.


Wait, I thought the USAAF's February 14 raid was directed straight over the city, and February 15 was the railway yard?


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## fubar57 (Mar 18, 2018)

If you want to correct the 8thAAF the website is listed in Post #15

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## billrunnels (Mar 18, 2018)

Zipper730 said:


> Wait, I thought the USAAF's February 14 raid was directed straight over the city, and February 15 was the railway yard?


On February 15 our target was Military Objectives


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## MIflyer (Mar 18, 2018)

As I recall reading it (in Caiden's "Flying Forts") they were going to hit an airfield outside of Brussels and were routed over the city because there was less AA there. The bombardier said he wanted to check the drift adjustment on him bombsight, looked ahead and could see the park very clearly, and set it up as a target. Either he had the switches set wrong or else there was an electrical failure, and the bombs dropped automatically with the arming wires still in place, but the rest of the box bombed on the leader and really clobbered the park and adjacent buildings . Everybody felt horrible about it and when they got home the bombardier explained what had occurred and said he wished he had never been born..

It turned out that the Germans had considered the high quality apartments as a great place to house their officers and the park a fine location to park all their vehicles. The attack killed something like 1500 Germans but very few civilians, and was hailed as a fantastic example of the precision of American daylight bombing.


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## stona (Mar 18, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> On February 15 our target was Military Objectives



On February 14th, Ash Wednesday, the 303rd specifically gave its primary target as _'military objectives in Dresden'_ and its secondary as _'marshaling yard in Chemnitz'._

Many others simply gave 'Dresden' as the primary target. The report of the commander of the 1st Division, Brigadier General Turner, to the 8th AF Headquarters is less circumspect.

_"Primary Target - Visual - Center of built up area of Dresden

Secondary Target - Visual - M/Y Chemnitz _[Marshaling Yard]
_
H2X - Center of Dresden

Last resort - Any military objective positively identified as being in Germany and east of the current bomb line."
_
The 398th, 381st and 91st got lost and accidentally bombed Prague, about eighty miles from Dresden, which was certainly not part of the plan!_
_
The 303rd was not among the first to bomb and you correctly remember that 10/10 cloud covered the city by the time it did. The unit bombed on radar, H2X. Your commander reported.
_
"Thirty six A/C dropped a total of 210 x 500 lb GP bombs, 140 x 500 M17 incendiary bombs and ten units of T-298 leaflets on Dresden. Bombing was PFF through practically solid undercast with results generally unobserved, though there are a few reports of bombs hitting the city."
_
Reports from the bombing aircraft are notoriously unreliable. An RAF Mosquito from 542 Squadron flew over Dresden about 45 minutes after the Americans left and took 108 photographs. Evaluation Report K.3742, based on this evidence concluded that the most serious damage done by the Americans was in the Friedrichstadt marshaling yards and the industrial areas west of the city centre, which somewhat unusually tallies well with initial reports from the returning bombers.
_

_
Cheers

Steve
_

_

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## billrunnels (Mar 18, 2018)

stona said:


> On February 14th, Ash Wednesday, the 303rd specifically gave its primary target as _'military objectives in Dresden'_ and its secondary as _'marshaling yard in Chemnitz'._
> 
> Many others simply gave 'Dresden' as the primary target. The report of the commander of the 1st Division, Brigadier General Turner, to the 8th AF Headquarters is less circumspect.
> 
> ...


Steve......Thanks for sharing this detailed info. The weather was lousy in that entire area. The mission, my first, was quite an adventure.

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## billrunnels (Mar 18, 2018)

stona said:


> On February 14th, Ash Wednesday, the 303rd specifically gave its primary target as _'military objectives in Dresden'_ and its secondary as _'marshaling yard in Chemnitz'._
> 
> Many others simply gave 'Dresden' as the primary target. The report of the commander of the 1st Division, Brigadier General Turner, to the 8th AF Headquarters is less circumspect.
> 
> ...





MIflyer said:


> As I recall reading it (in Caiden's "Flying Forts") they were going to hit an airfield outside of Brussels and were routed over the city because there was less AA there. The bombardier said he wanted to check the drift adjustment on him bombsight, looked ahead and could see the park very clearly, and set it up as a target. Either he had the switches set wrong or else there was an electrical failure, and the bombs dropped automatically with the arming wires still in place, but the rest of the box bombed on the leader and really clobbered the park and adjacent buildings . Everybody felt horrible about it and when they got home the bombardier explained what had occurred and said he wished he had never been born..
> 
> It turned out that the Germans had considered the high quality apartments as a great place to house their officers and the park a fine location to park all their vehicles. The attack killed something like 1500 Germans but very few civilians, and was hailed as a fantastic example of the precision of American daylight bombing.





MIflyer said:


> As I recall reading it (in Caiden's "Flying Forts") they were going to hit an airfield outside of Brussels and were routed over the city because there was less AA there. The bombardier said he wanted to check the drift adjustment on him bombsight, looked ahead and could see the park very clearly, and set it up as a target. Either he had the switches set wrong or else there was an electrical failure, and the bombs dropped automatically with the arming wires still in place, but the rest of the box bombed on the leader and really clobbered the park and adjacent buildings . Everybody felt horrible about it and when they got home the bombardier explained what had occurred and said he wished he had never been born..
> 
> It turned out that the Germans had considered the high quality apartments as a great place to house their officers and the park a fine location to park all their vehicles. The attack killed something like 1500 Germans but very few civilians, and was hailed as a fantastic example of the precision of American daylight bombing.





MIflyer said:


> As I recall reading it (in Caiden's "Flying Forts") they were going to hit an airfield outside of Brussels and were routed over the city because there was less AA there. The bombardier said he wanted to check the drift adjustment on him bombsight, looked ahead and could see the park very clearly, and set it up as a target. Either he had the switches set wrong or else there was an electrical failure, and the bombs dropped automatically with the arming wires still in place, but the rest of the box bombed on the leader and really clobbered the park and adjacent buildings . Everybody felt horrible about it and when they got home the bombardier explained what had occurred and said he wished he had never been born..
> 
> It turned out that the Germans had considered the high quality apartments as a great place to house their officers and the park a fine location to park all their vehicles. The attack killed something like 1500 Germans but very few civilians, and was hailed as a fantastic example of the precision of American daylight bombing.


Thanks for filling in the gaps.


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## Gnomey (Mar 18, 2018)

Great stuff Bill!


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## Zipper730 (Mar 18, 2018)

stona said:


> The 303rd was not among the first to bomb and you correctly remember that 10/10 cloud covered the city by the time it did. The unit bombed on radar, H2X. Your commander reported.
> _
> "Thirty six A/C dropped a total of 210 x 500 lb GP bombs, 140 x 500 M17 incendiary bombs and ten units of T-298 leaflets on Dresden. Bombing was PFF through practically solid undercast with results generally unobserved, though there are a few reports of bombs hitting the city."_


Why would you drop leaflets with incendiaries?


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## fubar57 (Mar 18, 2018)

Bits of paper aren't going to follow the bomb track

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## pbehn (Mar 18, 2018)

Zipper730 said:


> Why would you drop leaflets with incendiaries?


1. a bombardier drops what he is told to drop where he is told to drop it.
2. Propaganda, which is what leaflets are, is most effective on an enemy at an emotional low point. There were special "bombs" to drop them in some cases, each holding 80,000 leaflets.

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## Zipper730 (Mar 18, 2018)

pbehn said:


> 1. a bombardier drops what he is told to drop where he is told to drop it.


I'm not asking why the bombardier dropped it, I'm curious why it was loaded in the plane at all.


> 2. Propaganda, which is what leaflets are, is most effective on an enemy at an emotional low point. There were special "bombs" to drop them in some cases, each holding 80,000 leaflets.


Yeah but you'd figured they'd all get burned dup in the fires


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## pbehn (Mar 18, 2018)

Zipper730 said:


> I'm not asking why the bombardier dropped it, I'm curious why it was loaded in the plane at all.
> Yeah but you'd figured they'd all get burned dup in the fires


When one container contains a leaflet for almost all the citizens of a town/city a few will always survive.
Airborne leaflet propaganda - Wikipedia


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## stona (Mar 19, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> Thanks for filling in the gaps.



It's me that should be thanking you!
We only have the freedom to express ourselves openly in places like this because of what you and your generation did back then.
Cheers
Steve

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## stona (Mar 19, 2018)

I don't know why the Americans dropped leaflets on Dresden. I think they had limited effect. Of all the first hand reports I've see from people who were on the receiving end of the raids, not one mentions propaganda leaflets.

The RAF did not _routinely_ drop leaflets by this stage of the war.

Cheers

Steve

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## billrunnels (Mar 19, 2018)

pbehn said:


> 1. a bombardier drops what he is told to drop where he is told to drop it.
> 2. Propaganda, which is what leaflets are, is most effective on an enemy at an emotional low point. There were special "bombs" to drop them in some cases, each holding 80,000 leaflets.


I carried propaganda on my only trip to Berlin - 02/26/1945. They were crammed in tubular container some hanging out the seams so I put one in my pocket. Still have it. Had it translated to English by a professor at Kansas University. The messages were from Roosevelt and Churchill. The mission was called "Rail Smash".

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## michaelmaltby (Mar 19, 2018)

Bill can you, could you please take a photo of your leaflet ... or arrange same ... we would all love to see it I am sure


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## billrunnels (Mar 19, 2018)

michaelmaltby said:


> Bill can you, could you please take a photo of your leaflet ... or arrange same ... we would all love to see it I am sure


It is on the 303rd Website I will try to get a link. If that don't work I will do the photo.


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 19, 2018)

thank you, sir


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## billrunnels (Mar 19, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> It is on the 303rd Website I will try to get a link. If that don't work I will do the photo.


Give this a try:
www.303rdbg.com/leaflets
click on propaganda leaflets index - 303rdbg.com
click on red leaflet first row
Hope this works. Please let me know if it does not.


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## michaelmaltby (Mar 19, 2018)

404 Error at that link


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## billrunnels (Mar 19, 2018)

michaelmaltby said:


> 404 Error at that link





Sorry about that. Will give it another try.


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## Crimea_River (Mar 19, 2018)

Here's a link that works and the leaflet in question:

303rdBG Custom Search Results

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## michaelmaltby (Mar 19, 2018)

thank you


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## Crimea_River (Mar 19, 2018)

Translation:

First in the West

Rundstedt's counteroffensive smashed

Now in the East

East Prussia cut off!
The Red Army is deep into Silesia
The "Ruhr of the East" is laid waste
Zhukov's army is in Brandenburg
Evacuation of state and party officials underway

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## billrunnels (Mar 19, 2018)

Crimea_River said:


> Here's a link that works and the leaflet in question:
> 
> 303rdBG Custom Search Results
> 
> View attachment 486490


Thanks for your help.


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## billrunnels (Mar 19, 2018)

Crimea_River said:


> Here's a link that works and the leaflet in question:
> 
> 303rdBG Custom Search Results
> 
> View attachment 486490


Thanks for your help. As you can tell my computer knowledge is limited


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## Crimea_River (Mar 19, 2018)

Pleasure Bill.

On the night of Feb 13/14, my mother, then 12 years old, was on a train that was evacuating refugees from her home province of Silesia. The train was parked on a railway siding outside of Dresden and she remember seeing the red glow of the burning city. She and her immediate family eventually made it to the south where they were put up in an old farm house near Oberstdorf.


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## billrunnels (Mar 19, 2018)

Crimea_River said:


> Pleasure Bill.
> 
> On the night of Feb 13/14, my mother, then 12 years old, was on a train that was evacuating refugees from her home province of Silesia. The train was parked on a railway siding outside of Dresden and she remember seeing the red glow of the burning city. She and her immediate family eventually made it to the south where they were put up in an old farm house near Oberstdorf.


Thanks for sharing the story. Happy that your mother and family were safe. What a terrible ordeal it must have been.


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## Crimea_River (Mar 19, 2018)

They were much more afraid of what they were running from than what they faced in their flight.


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## billrunnels (Mar 19, 2018)

Crimea_River said:


> They were much more afraid of what they were running from than what they faced in their flight.


I can understand that. I really felt bad for the civilian population knowing that lives were lost because of my actions. I said a little prayer on bombs away that the civilians in the target area would be protected.


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## Crimea_River (Mar 19, 2018)

I know an airman who served as a tail gunner on Lancs. I wish I had a video of the time he was out looking at the B-17 Aluminum Overcast when it was here in town. He and I were talking about his service and another guy who overheard our conversation came up to him and said "I heard you guys". He clarified that he was a young boy who grew up in Germany and that he heard the bombers going over his home almost every night. Hank the gunner got all teared up and began apologizing and the younger man consoled him saying that he had no need to do that. He said "it was war and you had a job to do". I'll never forget that encounter and the emotions that were still evoked 70 years later.

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## billrunnels (Mar 19, 2018)

Crimea_River said:


> I know an airman who served as a tail gunner on Lancs. I wish I had a video of the time he was out looking at the B-17 Aluminum Overcast when it was here in town. He and I were talking about his service and another guy who overheard our conversation came up to him and said "I heard you guys". He clarified that he was a young boy who grew up in Germany and that he heard the bombers going over his home almost every night. Hank the gunner got all teared up and began apologizing and the younger man consoled him saying that he had no need to do that. He said "it was war and you had a job to do". I'll never forget that encounter and the emotions that were still evoked 70 years later.


War is tough. There no winners. Thanks for sharing.

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## Zipper730 (Mar 19, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> War is tough. There no winners.


That's right, the question is simply who loses most.

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## pbehn (Mar 19, 2018)

Crimea_River said:


> I know an airman who served as a tail gunner on Lancs. I wish I had a video of the time he was out looking at the B-17 Aluminum Overcast when it was here in town. He and I were talking about his service and another guy who overheard our conversation came up to him and said "I heard you guys". He clarified that he was a young boy who grew up in Germany and that he heard the bombers going over his home almost every night. Hank the gunner got all teared up and began apologizing and the younger man consoled him saying that he had no need to do that. He said "it was war and you had a job to do". I'll never forget that encounter and the emotions that were still evoked 70 years later.


I used to stay in a family guest house lose to some railway siding for a steel works, Norbert, the old guy who owned the place was in it when the roof was blown off during a raid, he was about 5ft 4in tall and drove a huge Cadilliac. In another small hotel they had a couple of Stamm guests, the old boy was buried alive for 2 hours by a bomb, post war he worked for the British army driving trucks and tank transporters, he was just like a squaddie with a German accent, a great laugh.

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## ClayO (Mar 22, 2018)

Seems like a book could be written about your experiences - or at least a short story about this mission.


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## ClayO (Mar 22, 2018)

fubar57 said:


> They bombed a railway yard on the 14th, hardly a city destroyer. Click on the image to enlarge
> 
> View attachment 486188


What does "they claim 11-0-3 Luftwaffe aircraft" mean?


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## billrunnels (Mar 22, 2018)

ClayO said:


> What does "they claim 11-0-3 Luftwaffe aircraft" mean?


I am not sure. However, my guess is our escort aircraft claim they shot down 11 enemy aircraft and damaged 3 more.


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## stona (Mar 22, 2018)

ClayO said:


> What does "they claim 11-0-3 Luftwaffe aircraft" mean?



It means that 11 enemy aircraft were claimed destroyed, 0 were claimed as 'Probables' (probably destroyed) and 3 were claimed as damaged.

This was the standard format in USAAF reports.

The total for 14th February is a composite of 1-0-0 for the bombers and 10-0-3 from the 15 Fighter Groups (962 fighters took part in the operations that day) which performed the escort and fighter sweeps.

Cheers

Steve

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## billrunnels (Mar 22, 2018)

stona said:


> It means that 11 enemy aircraft were claimed destroyed, 0 were claimed as 'Probables' (probably destroyed) and 3 were claimed as damaged.
> 
> This was the standard format in USAAF reports.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification. I had never seen this report before.


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## stona (Mar 22, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I had never seen this report before.



I did a quick check on the claims and have edited my original answer. the 11-0-3 is a combination of claims from the Bomber and Fighter Groups.

The bombers submitted a claim for 1 destroyed, so that wouldn't have annoyed we Brits too much  
Seriously,the British expressed annoyance and concern about USAAF bomber claims in the early days of US operations against mainland Europe. American bomber gunners had claimed almost the entire Luftwaffe fighter strength in NW Europe in a few months! By February 1944 this was not an issue any longer.

The German opposition in the air on 14th February was 78 fighters from JG 300, 68 from JG 301 and a small number of Me 262s from I./JG 7, III./JG 7 and KG (J) 54.

The Me 262s claimed three B-17s, though NO jet attacks were recorded by the Americans.

A handful of Fw 190s, probably from JG 301, caught an isolated B-17 squadron and shot down one, severely damaging another. The claimants are not known. Record keeping at this time in the war was hardly a German priority and the claims system had collapsed months earlier.

The Americans reported that the Luftwaffe reaction had been_ "strikingly weak and almost entirely ineffective"_. From your point of view that can only have been a good thing.

Cheers

Steve


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## buffnut453 (Mar 22, 2018)

stona said:


> The Americans reported that the Luftwaffe reaction had been_ "strikingly weak and almost entirely ineffective"_. From your point of view that can only have been a good thing.



I suspect it may not have felt "strikingly week and almost entirely ineffective" if you had the misfortune to be on the receiving end.


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## stona (Mar 22, 2018)

buffnut453 said:


> I suspect it may not have felt "strikingly week and almost entirely ineffective" if you had the misfortune to be on the receiving end.



True enough, but hardly any Luftwaffe fighters made contact with the bombers. By this stage in the war they were very wary of escort fighters. It is telling that the only bomber squadron seriously engaged by Luftwaffe fighters was 'isolated'.

Despite the German claims it is probable that of the well over 1,000 American bombers operating that day just one was shot down by a fighter. That is, indeed, "almost entirely ineffective".

The relatively large number damaged (181) speaks for the efficiency of the limited flak the raids faced.

Cheers

Steve


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## buffnut453 (Mar 22, 2018)

Entirely agree Steve...it's just that the authors of such comments often reside in HQ whereas the men in the front line had a very different experience. I'm not disagreeing that, by this stage, the Luftwaffe was largely ineffective at the operational level.


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## pbehn (Mar 22, 2018)

buffnut453 said:


> Entirely agree Steve...it's just that the authors of such comments often reside in HQ whereas the men in the front line had a very different experience. I'm not disagreeing that, by this stage, the Luftwaffe was largely ineffective at the operational level.


I think it was just the times they were in. I remember reading a bomber pilot describing flak somewhere on the Ruhr as "light and inaccurate", five planes were lost. It seems callous but I suppose if you have been on a raid where many more were lost you become accustomed.


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## stona (Mar 22, 2018)

pbehn said:


> I think it was just the times they were in. I remember reading a bomber pilot describing flak somewhere on the Ruhr as "light and inaccurate", five planes were lost. It seems callous but I suppose if you have been on a raid where many more were lost you become accustomed.



Even on the same raids aircraft that were just minutes or miles apart had completely different experiences.

On the British raid on Peenemunde there were serious losses to night fighters, but the first squadrons in and out never saw one and completed the mission unmolested, unlike those who followed.

Their reports would have been quite different.

Cheers

Steve

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## billrunnels (Mar 22, 2018)

stona said:


> I did a quick check on the claims and have edited my original answer. the 11-0-3 is a combination of claims from the Bomber and Fighter Groups.
> 
> The bombers submitted a claim for 1 destroyed, so that wouldn't have annoyed we Brits too much
> Seriously,the British expressed annoyance and concern about USAAF bomber claims in the early days of US operations against mainland Europe. American bomber gunners had claimed almost the entire Luftwaffe fighter strength in NW Europe in a few months! By February 1944 this was not an issue any longer.
> ...


That it was. Fighter attacks were few and far between. However, we remained alert to the possibility on every mission.

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## Zipper730 (Mar 24, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> At our mission briefings we were given the primary and secondary target names also the names of "targets of opportunity " to be considered in the event the first two were not available due to weather conditions. We could not pick just any target. I witnessed the bombing of a small village by a squadron of B-17s. I can still see the church steeple tumbling up in the air. The village had no military value. The bombing was uncalled for. Apparently that squadron could not hit the assigned targets and wanted to destroy something.I reported the incident on return to our base.


Yeah, I remember that sometimes crews would do that at times, they'd look for something that remotely fit a criteria for a target, such as a road (say one running through the middle of a town), and classify into something that fit an acceptable target (transportation, autobahn), and plaster the place (and since almost any town probably has a road running through it, it was pretty easy to argue).

There might have been requirements at times for crews to not return home without dropping payload, and restrictions on jettisoning bombs (I'm not sure about that), which would almost certainly incentivize crews to get creative.


> No. I have my doubts that anything was done.


I doubt it


> However, I was compelled to report it. I felt we should be above that sort of thing even in times of war.


Noble mindset, sadly often lacking even modern day


> I had no qualms about fighting the military but thought the civilian population received more anguish than they deserved.


Yeah, basically WW2 saw way too much of that stuff.

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## stona (Mar 24, 2018)

American bombing raids always had a series of target priorities, the third being the tertiary. 

You'll see from my Dresden post earlier that on that day the tertiary target was defined as:

_"Last resort - Any military objective positively identified as being in Germany and east of the current bomb line."
_
A military objective is a very broad definition. It would include any sort of transport or communications link, something sure to be running through even the most insignificant German village.

From December 1944 to the end of the war the 8th Air Force dropped more than 10,000 tons of bombs on targets of opportunity or 'last resort' targets in Germany. 159 such targets were attacked in this period, many simply villages and hamlets. Small units separated from their main formations or unable to bomb their primary and secondary targets sought out, with the permission and encouragement of official policy, cities, towns, or villages of opportunity to bomb. Basically anything in Germany, and anything the right side of the current bomb line, was a fair target.

I don't know US policy on not bombing at all. It seems clear that as a rule the authorities would prefer the bombers to bomb something, anything, rather than return and jettison their bombs. There were designated areas in the English Channel and North Sea into which returning bombers could jettison undelivered ordnance.

Cheers

Steve

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## bwiechman (Mar 31, 2018)

In Those Who Fall Muirhead wrote that if they came back with bombs they didn't get credit for a mission. That was the 15th AF. The 8th AF May have been different .

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## billrunnels (Mar 31, 2018)

bwiechman said:


> In Those Who Fall Muirhead wrote that if they came back with bombs they didn't get credit for a mission. That was the 15th AF. The 8th AF May have been different .


It was the same in the 8th.You had to drop the bombs on a target. We had to abort one mission over enemy territory due to loss of engine #3. Got rid of the bombs to lighten load. Did not receive mission credit.


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## Zipper730 (Apr 1, 2018)

stona said:


> A military objective is a very broad definition. It would include any sort of transport or communications link, something sure to be running through even the most insignificant German village.
> 
> From December 1944 to the end of the war the 8th Air Force dropped more than 10,000 tons of bombs on targets of opportunity or 'last resort' targets in Germany. 159 such targets were attacked in this period, many simply villages and hamlets. Small units separated from their main formations or unable to bomb their primary and secondary targets sought out, with the permission and encouragement of official policy, cities, towns, or villages of opportunity to bomb. Basically anything in Germany, and anything the right side of the current bomb line, was a fair target.
> 
> I don't know US policy on not bombing at all. It seems clear that as a rule the authorities would prefer the bombers to bomb something, anything, rather than return and jettison their bombs.


That kind of lines up with what I've read.


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