# What is this automotive blasphemy?



## Thorlifter (Oct 11, 2016)

Actually, it all makes sense, but it's still weird.....

There was a time when manual transmissions were synonymous with performance cars, but that time is past.

Ferrari is the latest automaker to retire the clutch pedal, a move that will probably seem like a gut punch to fans of stick shifts, but isn’t too surprising given the low sales of manuals in Ferrari's and other high-end performance cars over the past few years. And that’s not even the primary reason why Ferrari is ditching manuals.

“Ferrari is design, performance, and state-of-the-art technologies. There’s no manual transmission that can beat this performance and therefore we have decided to stay on the double-clutch gearbox,” Michael Hugo Leiters, the automaker’s chief technology officer, said in an interview with Motor Authority at the recent 2016 Paris Motor Show. Even a well-shifted manual can’t match the speed of modern dual-clutch transmissions, after all.

That argument is a compelling one for manufacturers constantly looking to increase the performance of their cars, both to win over consumers and to achieve bragging rights. For decades, manual transmissions had a performance advantage over those without clutch pedals, but today’s dual-clutch transmissions have erased that advantage. They shift faster, and they help car makers snag customers that might have been discouraged by having to master a manual.

Ferrari isn’t alone in leaving the manual transmission behind. Lamborghini and McLaren don’t have a single manual between them, and Porsche has made the dual-clutch PDK transmission mandatory on the highest-performance versions of its 911. Porsche still offers manuals on lower-level models, though, and Aston Martin still offers them throughout its range.

Manuals are also much easier to find on less-expensive cars. Once you leave the six-figure realm, they start to become more common on performance cars. The manual transmission is definitely on the endangered species list, but it’s not extinct … yet.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 11, 2016)

Dunno man...I have always preferred a stick over an auto when I'm performance driving.

My '08 Scion would eat up the curves in the canyon roads up here but I found myself working the brakes way to hard because of the car's built up speed coming into a curve. In my '79 BMW 320i, I could downshift, holding the energy into a corner and actually steer the car with the gas in the turn (give it gas to tighten, back off to widen) and come out of the turn like a rocket on rails.

I think in straight ahead autobahn-blasting, the auto may be the champ, but in road-coursing, there is no comparison.


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## Capt. Vick (Oct 11, 2016)

So double-clutch means automatic?


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## Thorlifter (Oct 11, 2016)

Capt. Vick said:


> So double-clutch means automatic?



Yes, but with the paddles on the steering wheel for manual control as well.

It does make sense. It's just weird to not have a stick on a high performance car. Look at it like this.....the last Ferrari that came with a manual transmission is the California. It started production in 2008 and is still being made at 6,000 cars a year. You know how many they have sold with a stick????? 14. That's it. Wiki says 3 but (to everyone's surprise) Wiki is wrong.

The double clutch is so efficient and quick, it makes the manual slow by comparison. And since Ferrari, Lamborghini, and others are all about 1/100ths of a second for performance, they are going to use what is best.

It's still weird though......


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## gumbyk (Oct 11, 2016)

The haven't gone automatic - they've ditched the manual clutch and retained the manual gear selection.

They're still manual, in hat you select the gears, and it goes into the gear you select when you select it (unless its outside limitations such as red-lining the engine). In a performance car like this, you get much faster gear changes.

The last few cars I've had have had this sort of arrangement, and I quite like it.


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## Thorlifter (Oct 11, 2016)

Thanks Gumbyk. Perhaps I didn't explain it well enough. This is from Wiki and it does explain it pretty well.....

A *dual-clutch transmission*, (*DCT*) (sometimes referred to as a *twin-clutch transmission* or *double-clutch transmission*), is a type of automatic transmission or automated automotive transmission. It uses two separate clutches[1] for odd and even gear sets. It can fundamentally be described as two separate manual transmissions (with their respective clutches) contained within one housing, and working as one unit.[2][3] They are usually operated in a fully automatic mode, and many also have the ability to allow the driver to manually shift gears in semi-automatic mode,[1] albeit still using the transmission's electro-hydraulics.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 11, 2016)

_This, _is what I want!


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## Thorlifter (Oct 11, 2016)

Ummmm, Sir, that is not an eco-friendly device. Please return to the end of the line and try again.


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## pbehn (Oct 11, 2016)

I have one on my car (Audi 3.0 diesel) it works great but I never use the paddles or stick control. Even a 3.0 diesel goes scarily quickly after a few seconds of "performance driving" I suspect it is best for getting the 0-60 time down which is what everyone looks at.


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## Thorlifter (Oct 11, 2016)

My wife's Altima 3.5 had the paddles, but I don't think we have used them once. Then again, I don't think we have raced too many people in an Altima


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## pbehn (Oct 11, 2016)

Thorlifter said:


> My wife's Altima 3.5 had the paddles, but I don't think we have used them once. Then again, I don't think we have raced too many people in an Altima


The few times I have used it was not with the paddles but the stick control forward to down shift and backwards to up shift which is like a motor cycle, as I said on the road you are going too damned quick and in license losing territory after 10 seconds, the auto change can be annoying switching up or down in corners when I would prefer not to.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 11, 2016)



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## pbehn (Oct 11, 2016)

Last week I put my car in for a service and M.O.T. (yearly safety check). The courtesy car was manual everything so I tried pulling off with the hand brake on, stalled it twice slowing down but not changing down and got stuck in the middle of the road when i couldnt find reverse. Safely back in my automatic everything when it was dark I drove around with no lights for ten minutes because the people testing the lights for the check had turned the lights to manual.

These auto gizmos are great but you get used to them way too quickly.

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## stona (Oct 11, 2016)

pbehn said:


> The courtesy car was manual everything so I tried pulling off with the hand brake on, .....when it was dark I drove around with no lights for ten minutes because the people testing the lights for the check had turned the lights to manual.
> These auto gizmos are great but you get used to them way too quickly.



My car now has an 'electro-magnetic' handbrake/parking brake and I've had the reverse problem, looking for a non existent handle to pull up, or let down. You are supposed to just drive away as the brake automatically disengages, which is counter intuitive to someone used to a manual brake and confusing to start with 

I've stuck with a manual gear box, but the other half has Audi's S-Tronic system, which is just their name for a DSG transmission, in her car and it does drive very well.

I've also driven around with no lights because service engineers have left the headlight control in manual rather than auto! They seem to put the preset radio station as I had it, but forget the lights and windscreen wipers 

Cheers

Steve


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## Capt. Vick (Oct 11, 2016)

Aren't those paddles in formula 1 race cars and have been for a while?


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## pbehn (Oct 11, 2016)

Capt. Vick said:


> Aren't those paddles in formula 1 race cars and have been for a while?


Sure, it takes a while for things to filter down. However if you only hve paddles it is a real dogs dinner, I saw a test on Ferrari tht only had paddles for forward gears and a button for reverse, doing a three point turn was like sitting an examination.


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## tyrodtom (Oct 11, 2016)

I wonder where future generations of race car drivers are going to come from. With stability control on most new cars how will they ever learn to really drive without it, most racing associations don't allow traction/stability devices.
I owned very few cars with automatics, i've even went to the trouble of changing one of my cars from a automatic to a 4 speed. Even now approaching 70 years old I still drive straight shifts.

Nowadays having a car with a straight stick is almost like having a anti- theft device installed, they can't steal it if they can't drive it..

To me automotive blasphemy would be a 69 Camaro with a 351 Ford engine.

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## Thorlifter (Oct 11, 2016)

With a Challenger badge on the trunk?


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## bobbysocks (Oct 11, 2016)

my Hyundai has an automatic I can shift. if I move the gear lever over to the side I can click it to shift up or down. I do use it more often than probably most. I will down shift going down steep hills or keep a lower gear in snowy/icy conditions. its not as much fun as a full fledged stick but not half bad either..


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## Old Wizard (Oct 11, 2016)

My KIA has manual shift mode, but I haven't tried it yet, or sport mode. Must be getting old. .


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## T Bolt (Oct 11, 2016)

Even if it isn't any kind of preformance car there's nothing like driving a stick. My 50 Chevy 3/4 ton truck is not what you would call fast but with the original 4 speed transmition it's a blast to drive


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## Airframes (Oct 11, 2016)

My 'Tin Tent' is totally manual, requiring written requests to change gear, and a letter from both Great Grand parents if reverse is required ..... releasing the hand brake (parking brake) is easier if one leaves the driver's seat and climbs outside !!


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## Shortround6 (Oct 11, 2016)

There are slick manual transmissions that require only a little more than a thought to shift (even if slower than a _modern _automatic or dual clutch) and there are manuals that not only require letters from great grandparents but near divine intervention in order to make a run through the gears. And there are few transmissions/shift levers that leave you with the desire to meet the designer/engineer in a dark alley with a blunt instrument. Even if not as hard to shift if you forget and have your fingers over the front of the shift you _will _have imprints of the dash in your knuckles. 

Granted some of these were truck transmissions.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 11, 2016)

One of the manual transmissions I don't miss, are the three-on-the-tree types (manual column shift).

I had a '63 Nova with one and I squared off against a '62 Falcon on day, at the light. When it went green, we launched and as I was shifting into the next gear, the knob came loose and I punched the windsheild...didn't break the glass, but my hand was pretty much out of commission for a while.


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## tyrodtom (Oct 11, 2016)

I remember some of the trucks we drove in the air force, civilian type semis, no sychomesh in any gear, you had to double clutch on every shift, up or down. If you messed up the shift on the first try, you were usually screwed. Brakes we'ren't good enough without downshifting to slow down with a load.

And that load was sometimes 20-30 unfused 750 lb bombs or napalm.

Lucky I had already learned how to double clutch fairly well in a old Ford truck before I was 16.

But because I could drive the big trucks, I usually got stuck with transporting the big loads to the flight line.


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## Thorlifter (Oct 12, 2016)

Bobbysocks and Old Wizard, isn't that something like a bump shifter?


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## Airframes (Oct 12, 2016)

Yep, the 'Tin Tent', being of French origin, was originally designed with a column shift. When built for the UK market, changing to right-hand drive, the gear shift was moved to the floor.
This involves dance moves that both Fred Astaire and John Travolta would be proud of, trying to get the left foot on or off the clutch pedal without either fouling the steering column, or trapping the edge of the foot beneath the clutch pedal and the column. 
Engaging 1st gear, without first remembering to turn the hand, results in jamming one's fingers into the dash board (worse for me, having a stiff left hand), causing involuntary release of the gear lever, and, of course, a lack of an engaged gear, some pain, and a string of rather vulgar exclamations.
Mess-up a gear change, and one is left wondering which gear (if any) has been engaged, as well as wondering which gear _should_ have been engaged, whilst at the same time attempting to take the relevant action to ensure that a gear - any gear - is finally selected in order to prevent the 10 ton wagon behind running over the top of you, or enabling one to successfully negotiate the tight turn ahead without becoming part of the scenery.
Certainly a more efficient method of ensuring driver awareness, and preventing the possibility of falling asleep at the wheel, than some more modern vehicles, with what almost equates to 'automatic pilot ' !!!

Oh, and as the cab is rather high, and lacks any form of step or grab handle, it's essential to carry a folding, plastic step, attached to the door handle with a length of para cord, in order to board and de-bus !!!
(the para cord is used to haul the step aboard, placing it alongside the driver's seat !)


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## Lucky13 (Oct 12, 2016)

Then on a wee bit of a side note, what is it with today's car names, like: Daihatsu Naked; Honda Life Dunk; Honda That’s; Isuzu GIGA 20 Light Dump and Mysterious Utility; Mazda Bongo; Mitsubishi Delica Space Gear and Pistachio; Nissan Fairlady Z and Prairie Joy; Rickman Space Ranger; Rinspeed X-Dream; Suzuki Cappucino; Toyota Deliboy and Toyopet; Volkswagen Thing and Volugrafo Bimbo.

One does worry at times....


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## pbehn (Oct 12, 2016)

Visit Japan to find out, names are part of their humour like the general store chain "Fresh Fanny" I used to drink in a bar called the "Joy Space Java" the name was the most exotic thing about it, just a room with music.


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## Lucky13 (Oct 12, 2016)

There's a women's clothing store where my parents live, called _Fanny! 
_


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## fastmongrel (Oct 12, 2016)

Last week swapped my lovely Merc CLK automatic beautiful motor smooth grunty and comfortable enough to drive to the other end of the country realise you forgot your toothbrush and drive home to get it. Unfortunately it was a gas guzzler and it needed four new tyres so rather than sell a kidney to pay for fuel and tyres I swapped it for a Ford Focus 1.6 turbo diesel manual. I stalled it in the sales lot I stalled it at the first second thrid and fifth traffic lights. Trying to get used to using two feet again I hit the brake with my left foot and a car behind me nearly ended up on the back seat. I have almost got used to a clutch again after a week but still occasionally hop hop hop hop down the road. Brilliant m.p.g though I filled it up last week 450 miles and the needle is just on the 1/3 mark, 50 miles per gallon sure does beat 16 miles per gallon.


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## pbehn (Oct 12, 2016)

Dont take it to heart FM I used to get a lot of hire cars and the easiest to stall was the VW Golf tdGTi, being a diesel, stalling it was like standing on the break.

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## fastmongrel (Oct 12, 2016)

pbehn said:


> Dont take it to heart FM I used to get a lot of hire cars and the easiest to stall was the VW Golf tdGTi, being a diesel, stalling it was like standing on the break.



Its a while since I drove a diesel car and they arent like the diesels I remember driving. It doesnt clatter, doesnt blow smoke, doesnt like being driven much below 1500 rpm but when it gets going it can rev quite respectably up to 5,000 and the 6 speed box is very relaxing for motorway driving. 

I used to have a Sherpa Van with a Perkins diesel and that was a proper diesel lump it clattered, thumped and pulled any load you could fit in the back. If you revved it past about 2,500rpm it sounded like you would be carrying bits of engine home in a bucket.

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## davparlr (Oct 15, 2016)

I have had three cars with manual shift capable automatics, 2006 Sonata (loved that car), 2009 Genesis (great car for the money), and 2013 Camaro with head up display (HUD)(fun driving, powerful, go-cart). The Hyundais both had the forward and back manual shifter, the Camaro has the paddle levers. My opinion is that, in the Hyundais, I often did not know what gear I was in. In the Camaro, the gear selected was displayed in the HUD, but I often, in sharper turns, did not have my hands in good position for for depressing the paddles and I don't like it. If I had my druthers, I would select the Hyundai gear shift system with a HUD showing gear selected. A note: I have noticed that the new Genesis uses paddles, .


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## GrauGeist (Oct 15, 2016)

davparlr said:


> ...but I often, in sharper turns, did not have my hands in good position for for depressing the paddles and I don't like it...


That's an excellent point and I agree.

In a highway setting or a road-course, paddle shifters may be convenient, but on a canyon or mountain road, the degree to which the steering wheel is turning, the paddles are often not accessible and could actually be more of a liability to the driver than an asset.

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## prem895 (Oct 15, 2016)

Well we on on this technology move forward. Diesel is dead in North America. I work for VW and I for one am glad. Not glad about 747 retirements on the other hand


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## mikewint (Oct 15, 2016)

Humans, it seems, have never mastered the ability to make a motor vehicle move without hitting something or someone:

Ohio City, Ohio claims the first accident involving a gasoline-powered auto. In 1891, engineer James Lambert was driving one of his inventions, an early gasoline-powered buggy. The buggy hit a tree root sticking out of the ground. Lambert lost control and the vehicle swerved and crashed into a hitching post.

In 1896, Bridget Driscoll stepped off of a London curb and was struck and killed by a gas-powered car driven by Arthur Edsall. At a blistering speed of four miles per hour, neither Edsall nor Driscoll were able to avoid the collision. That same year, a bicyclist was killed by an automobile in New York City.

The first pedestrian death in the U.S. occurred on September 13, 1899. Henry Bliss, was either disembarking from a New York City streetcar or helping a woman step out when he was struck by an electrically-powered taxi cab. He died from injuries to his head and chest the next morning.

IMHO it is a very simple. The majority of drivers are, either incapable, stupid, distracted, impaired, aggressive, over confident, etc. Thus, in the name of profits, the auto maker needs to sell as many vehicles as possible to as many people as possible despite their deficiencies. Therefore, in general terms, cars have to be made smarter and more capable than their potential driver

Let’s back up for a second. Growing up Dad had a 1913 Model-T Ford Touring car. Since it had a manual hand-crank starter you had to have a pretty decent amount of upper body strength JUST to start the thing and if not done correctly, the hand crank had a nasty habit of rotating backwards smacking the driver in the forearm breaking the bones. There were no hydraulics thus everything from brakes to steering was by brute force. There were no heaters, defrosters, or wipers. Along with the price the potential buyer pool was small.

To make their vehicles appeal to a larger pool of buyers, especially women, such deficiencies had to be corrected.

Our first “family” car was a 1949 Dodge. It was a tank on wheels and Mom never could manage the manual shifting, manual steering (especially when stopped), and manual brakes. She didn’t drive until Dad bought a 1953 Chevrolet with an automatic transmission.

In today’s electronic-gizmo age when drivers are too busy texting, watching TV, playing games, talking, eating, putting on make-up, day-dreaming, etc. to bother to look out the front, or side, or rear windows we have to have cars with automatic braking, blind-spot warning, lane-departure warning, rear cameras, etc. Then there are horribly complicated maneuvers like parallel-parking and backing a trailer that are now automated. A 95YO half-blind grandmother can tow a 6000lb cabin cruiser and launch it with one turn. You don’t even have to be bright enough to remember/find a key anymore as some vehicles recognize their driver, automatically unlock and allow a start with a simple button push.

Cars that drive themselves will soon be on the road so you’ll only have to be capable of opening a door and sitting down and remembering where you want to go.

Now I personally prefer my manual shift but don’t think for a second that I could beat a good double clutch automatic in a speed shift contest. It’s simply a contest in human reaction time vs. electronic reaction times.

In a simple braking reaction time test, human times varied from 0.7s to 3.0s whereas my computer with a Core i7 processor performs 117trillion instructions per second. No human driver can out-perform the computer. Electrical speed-of-light transmissions will always beat human ion-exchange neural impulses.

Just as an aside Double Clutching, to me, always meant: Step on the clutch, shift out of gear, release clutch, allow rpms to drop, step on the clutch, match rpms, shift into gear, and release clutch


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## GrauGeist (Oct 15, 2016)

I think that is one of our big problems today, Mike, is the mass access to "smart" cars.

And with this influx of smart cars, comes a whole generation of dumbed down drivers who's extense of mechanical knowledge is limited to knowing how to put fuel in it (and even then, barely).

Years ago, I had a 1919 Metz Express truck and to operate that machine, a person really needed to know what all was going on mechanically and had a real desire to drive it. It was alot of work, seriously.

The small flat-head 4 did not have alot of compression, so starting it was relatively simply: by crank. But, before you did, you had to set the points and the throttle - both found as levers mounted to the center of the steering wheel. Then you set the choke to cold (or opened it according to the engine temp) and then switched on the magneto.

* At this point, it's a great idea to be sure it's out of gear and the parking brake is firmly set, too. *

Pull the crank handle out of the tool storage and insert it through the hole in the valance (below the radiator) into the crown cup and then move it into a good position that will both allow you a good hefty pull and to be at an angle where a kickback won't break your arm/wrist/face. Note how I said "pull"? One of the most common ways to get injured, is to push the crank handle - that's a huge setup for a hospital bill. *IF* the engine starts AND everything goes according to plan, the radiused slots in the crown cup will push the end of the crank handle out and clear. I used to have a rubber "O" ring fitted to the edge of the crank hole, because it was a pretty violent event when it came clear and I didn't like the paint being chipped around the edges.

If the drive will be during the day, the headlamps and tail lamp won't be needed, however, if it's evening, then you must light the lamps with a match, as they used calcium carbide. Hopefully it's not windy - otherwise it'll take a little time to get this process accomplished.

Now, let's take this beast for a drive! 

The parking brake is released by compressing the arm on the brake handle and pulling back a little, so the ratchet releases. To put it in gear, you have to depress the arm that is attached to the floor shifter - and by saying clutch, it simply releases the pressure between the drive coupling - there are no syncros in the gearbox.

Now swing the fuel lever downward (remember, it's in the center of the steering wheel?) and off you go. If you are going to reach an incline, better have it in the middle gear range and a good run...as the engine starts to load, you should advance the points by swinging the lever down (this is the shorter lever on the steering wheel) and you should be able to make it - unless this is San Fransisco - and then God help you if you have to come to a stop on one of those hills. And those brakes...you have a footpedal that slows you down - and the reason why the emergency brake is called that? Is because back in the day, the emergency brake was located at the output of the gearbox (either a disc or more commonly, a drum) and if the main brakes, which were originally stacked leather pushing against a drum on the inner side of the drive-wheels, failed (which they did - quite often) you could grab the E-brake and give it a hefty pull and get things under control. Hopefully.
It was not uncommon back in the day to have a religious artifact in the vehicle (Cross, Rosary, St. Christopher medallion) and/or have the vehicle blessed - it was needed, trust me.

So in a nutshell...driving today almost has nothing in common with nearly a century ago...


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## Rkt_Sci (Oct 15, 2016)

Current F1 Champion, Lewis Hamilton, says that he doesn't use the paddle shifters that his LaFerrari is equipped with. Runs it in automatic mode. He also has a '67(?) 350GT Shelby Cobra. How's that for contrast?


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## mikewint (Oct 15, 2016)

Ah Dave...memories, memories. 1/2in pipe thread spark plugs. Adjusting valves by grinding the valve stems. My buddy Joe and I picked up more girls with that T than in my Marauder. The biggest problem we had was finding the clay nozzles for the head lamps. That 1:1 steering was a bear you had to hang on tight at all times and those narrow 90psi tires when they blew....they BLEW.
But I digress. I would disagree with you on one point. Smart cars did not make people dumb it was/is the reverse. Back to the T, how many people would/could be capable of all that. The Steamers and Electrics were a direct result of the difficulties the T presented. The electric starter essentially killed the market for both.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 15, 2016)

No kidding about those spark plugs...mine were a work of art!

At the top of the plug was a brass 8/32 stud that a knurled acorn nut sat atop (to hold the #10 gauge stranded copper spark wire with a ring terminal) and then the porcelain started with a series of "stacked" art deco rings that cascaded into a six-sided body, terminating at the wide steel base with another ring dividing the steel from the insulator. The porcelain was a hunter green with the edges of the concentric rings painted in a bright red.

There was more detail and craftmanship in a single spark plug than an entire modern automobile...


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## bobbysocks (Oct 16, 2016)

my first car was a 68 jeep wagoner...327 AMC engine and a 3 speed manual on the column. on my honeymoon I tired to teach my new bride how to drive it.....yeah right. it was on the corner lot for sale by the end of the week....

ahhh sparkplug tech. do you remember "fire ring" sparkplugs?? there was no curved ground electrode...the whole threaded side was what the center electrode shot the spark to. then there the triple electrode ones....the gold palladiums which had a center electrode about the size of straight pin. and don't forget the sparkplug "non-fouler" adapters....you can still get them.


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## tyrodtom (Oct 17, 2016)

mikewint said:


> Ah Dave...memories, memories. 1/2in pipe thread spark plugs. Adjusting valves by grinding the valve stems. My buddy Joe and I picked up more girls with that T than in my Marauder. The biggest problem we had was finding the clay nozzles for the head lamps. That 1:1 steering was a bear you had to hang on tight at all times and those narrow 90psi tires when they blew....they BLEW.
> But I digress. I would disagree with you on one point. Smart cars did not make people dumb it was/is the reverse. Back to the T, how many people would/could be capable of all that. The Steamers and Electrics were a direct result of the difficulties the T presented. The electric starter essentially killed the market for both.


By the time the Model T appeared in 1908, the steamers and electric cars had already reached their peak and their popularity was already dropping. They might have been popular because of the difficulty of starting early gas powered autos, but not the Model T .

And with the electric cars and steamers being in the $3000 region while the Model T was $500 ( later reduced to $250) they were hardly going for the same market.

The Model T finally got a electric starter in 1919.


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## pbehn (Oct 17, 2016)

We still have a steam bus (converted truck) here in UK. Having seen it the strangest thing is it hardly makes a sound.

Whitby steam bus, known as Elizabeth, is now for sale on eBay | Daily Mail Online


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## Robert Porter (Dec 12, 2016)

So a funny story about automatic vs. Manual. My wife had a friend visit from the UK. We met her at the airport where she rented a car. Having never driven an automatic before she was not too sure about it. But my wife informed her it was easy and she would ride with her.

They climbed into the car, I sat nearby in our car watching for them so we could travel home together. I saw the car start, then saw it move ever so slightly. Then all of a sudden it shot in reverse across the parking row and slammed into another rental parked opposite. 

Turns out when she first gave it some gas to reverse out the car did not move, my wife told her she had to "really give it the gas" to get it going which is what she did, she stomped on the gas peddle and it did indeed get going.


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## mikewint (Dec 12, 2016)

Mayhap, being an Englisher she thought* R* stood for Race

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## Airframes (Dec 12, 2016)

Yep, in Britain, "Give it some gas" normally means floor it, and really aggravate the gravel !!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 12, 2016)

Over in Europe most people still learn on manuals, and many still drive manuals.

Most cars in Germany are standard manual, and you have the option to pay for automatic.

Most laugh if you ask if they want an automatic.

When I went through German driving school, I learned on a manual BMW 5 series. Was a lot of fun cruising the autobahn in it.


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## Airframes (Dec 12, 2016)

Yep, if someone around here asks if you want an automatic, they probably mean a Colt 1911 !!


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## GrauGeist (Dec 12, 2016)

Have to agree with Chris...there's nothing like working through the gears on an M3 with a Getrag!


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## Old Wizard (Dec 12, 2016)

Found out my car is so smart that it detects the moisture level inside and switches to AC to avoid fogging the windshield.


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## Thorlifter (Dec 13, 2016)

Careful there Wizard. Your car may discover it can drive itself without you and you will wake up to find it missing.


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## mikewint (Dec 13, 2016)

My Sky has its own telephone number AND emails me every month with all of its performance data like oil life, miles driven, average speed, miles per gallon, ect., AND the _pressure in each of its tires_. There's no humidity sensor but it does turn its own headlights on and off depending on light levels. And yes it is a 5-speed manual


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## bobbysocks (Dec 13, 2016)

and most all of them now have a chip that acts like a blackbox on a plane. if there is a wreck they can tell how fast you were going, when you touched the brakes..if your turn signal was on..etc.


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## mikewint (Dec 13, 2016)

Yea, there have been a number of court cases where that data was subpoenaed to prove fault in the accident. Something like 10sec is recorded. 
I'm waiting for the computers data, GPS (my car knows where it is) data, and its telephone to be combined. Doing 80mph on the interstate my car calls the State police and turns me in. Speeding ticket in the mail!!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 13, 2016)

bobbysocks said:


> and most all of them now have a chip that acts like a blackbox on a plane. if there is a wreck they can tell how fast you were going, when you touched the brakes..if your turn signal was on..etc.



And don't forget big brother knows wherever you are...


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## fubar57 (Dec 13, 2016)

We have two things like that in all our equipment, except my grader. If someone isn't moving when they're supposed to, dispatch is on the radio immediately. One girl got busted because she moved her truck for 10 seconds without wearing a seat-belt and Minestar recorded it.


_View: https://youtu.be/zgGXPE79FZM_


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## Old Wizard (Dec 13, 2016)

Big Brother knows where we are, even if we don't.


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## mikewint (Dec 13, 2016)

Ya but I can always push the Onstar button and ask PLUS they'll route me home


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## GrauGeist (Dec 13, 2016)

Most cars nowdays are "fly by wire", everything going through both the ECM (Engine Control Module) and BCM (Body Control Module) - as is the case of my 2008 Scion. Everything in the car was controlled by the BCM, from the doorlocks to the sunroof to the rear hatch release and so on.

At the moment of impact, during the wreck, the battery was annihilated along with the ECM, causing the gauges to freeze where they were, the speedometer reflects a slight drop in speed before it froze, as I was doing about 50mph at the time of the collision.

So this is an indication of what the onboard systems can show to investigators - not just the gauges, but what the BCM (and ECM) was registering at the moment of collision.


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## pbehn (Dec 13, 2016)

I still have 145MPH recorded on my Garmin, but I cant prove it was in Germany.

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## mikewint (Dec 13, 2016)

Amazing it survived as intact as it did. I recall reading something about the filaments in lights being able to determine whether the lights were on or off at impact


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## GrauGeist (Dec 13, 2016)

Well, the interior remained relatively intact - the rest of the car, not so much! 

But yes, there are two ways to determine if a bulb was in operation at the time of a collision. One, would be if the glass was broken, causing the filament to burn and fail. The other, would be if the glass was intact but the filament was broken by the sudden impact in which case the filament parts will be longer due (stretched out) to the current causing them to "sag" as they are emitting heat and light. 

If the bulb's filament was broken while the bulb was not operating, the filament typically breaks in the middle and is in it's contracted (cold) state.

Here's another shot of the Scion - by the way, notice the damage to the A/C vent and the odd marks on the left side of the instrument cluster (by the A/C vent)? That's skin and was done by my hand as it was torn from the steering wheel during the impact...


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## mikewint (Dec 13, 2016)

Horrible to look at Dave, it's dumb-bass to say but you are one lucky Dude to survive at all


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## Gnomey (Dec 13, 2016)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> View attachment 360167


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 13, 2016)

pbehn said:


> I still have 145MPH recorded on my Garmin, but I cant prove it was in Germany.




Fastest I ever drove in Germany was 220 km/h (137 mph). Now, I was also the passenger in a Dodge Viper doing much faster on the Autobahn.


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## pbehn (Dec 16, 2016)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Fastest I ever drove in Germany was 220 km/h (137 mph). Now I was also the passenger in a Dodge Viper doing much faster on the Autobahn.


I first drove in Germany in 1990. I thought it was great cruising along at 95MPH. Within ten minutes I was passed by a Renault Alpine, a BMW 325 and a big merc saloon nose to tail and obviously racing, Five minutes later the same three cars were crashed, two in the central barrier and one stopped on the hard shoulder. The Autobahn is great but now and again you see complete fools competing to win the days Darwin award. Just because there is no limit doesnt mean it is ever safe to go at speeds close to 200MPH and I have seen people do it. Did you know a Ferrari on full throttle can still be heard above an Audis music system when you can no longer see it? Scariest of all were the fruitcakes doing circa 155MPH (most big German cars limited speed) at night in the rain. Of all the countries I drove in the Germans are technically the best its just that some are no where near as good as they think they are and the pictures in the "Bild" prove it, when it comes to motorway smash ups they produce Europes best.


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## mikewint (Dec 16, 2016)

It has been many, many years since we were on the autobahn and we were in an Austin American so our flat out top speed didn't even reach the recommended speed limit but I too remember being passed so fast that I never even really saw the passing car/motorcycle.
The autobahn accident rate is also less than half that of the US rate mostly because German automobile laws are Draconian by US standards. Starting with the cost (+$3000) of and time to obtain a license in Germany. First Aid certification is required as is a legal requirement to stop at an accident and render aid. Tailgating is highly illegal as is running out of gas and passing on the right. Laws are strictly enforced with severe fines and license suspensions and robot cameras are everywhere.
About 60% of the autobahn DOES have a speed limit. The other 40% is as smooth as glass with gentle sweeping turns. Road construction companies are REQUIRED to guarantee their roadway for 40 years and if defective THEY fix it at THEIR cost. In addition they don't just slap a quickie patch but dig up and replace the entire section of roadway
Now, there are highways in the US with no posted speed limits. Sections of highway in the open western plains are not posted BUT if your speed is excessive IN THE OPINION of a police officer you can be fined


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## pbehn (Dec 16, 2016)

As I said in my experience they are very good drivers they dont have a particularly bad accident rate but when they do it can be spectacular. By contrast the Dutch over the border on the same road are "captain sensibles" but the motorway was frequently blocked by accidents that never seemed to be more than the absent minded coming together.


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## mikewint (Dec 16, 2016)

Yea, we saw one or two like that. I was terrified to even attempt moving into the left lane. To a big Mercedes traveling at 80m/s our little Austin was standing still. Still to Germans driving was a full time occupation, no eating, drinking, texting, putting on make-up, ect. while driving. Their full attention was on the road


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## fastmongrel (Dec 16, 2016)

Years ago we were on our way home from Hockenheimring in my ratty but fast Ford Sapphire V6 on the Abahn near the Luxembourg border doing over 120mph when a Ford van doing about 60mph pulled out in front of us. I nearly ended up rear ending the van and we carried on the journey to the ferry at Zeebrugge slightly shaky. We all nearly needed brown underpants. Put me right off Autobahns.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 16, 2016)

pbehn said:


> I first drove in Germany in 1990. I thought it was great cruising along at 95MPH. Within ten minutes I was passed by a Renault Alpine, a BMW 325 and a big merc saloon nose to tail and obviously racing, Five minutes later the same three cars were crashed, two in the central barrier and one stopped on the hard shoulder. The Autobahn is great but now and again you see complete fools competing to win the days Darwin award. Just because there is no limit doesnt mean it is ever safe to go at speeds close to 200MPH and I have seen people do it. Did you know a Ferrari on full throttle can still be heard above an Audis music system when you can no longer see it? Scariest of all were the fruitcakes doing circa 155MPH (most big German cars limited speed) at night in the rain. Of all the countries I drove in the Germans are technically the best its just that some are no where near as good as they think they are and the pictures in the "Bild" prove it, when it comes to motorway smash ups they produce Europes best.



Agreed 100%.

I usually never drove faster than 140 km/h anyhow. 

Actually most parts of the Autobahn system have posted speed limits. Most typically somewhere between 120 and 140 km/h.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 16, 2016)

The thing about German drivers is they are required to go to driving schools. It takes approx 3 to 6 months to get a license, and several thousand Euros.

Compare that to America where teenagers are tought how to drive by their parents who themselves do not know how to drive because they were taught by there parents who do not know how to drive.

It is a vicious cycle of parents teaching their kids their own bad habits.

Here in Iowa/Illinois, the drivers are lazy and have no clue. They think the left land of the interstate is a cruising lane (10 mph below the speed limit), no one uses turn signals, and they think using your headlights at dawn and dusk or foggy conditions is a burden. To top it off, every second driver has a phone in their hand.

Yet they all think they are the greatest drivers ever.

My wife and I literally saw a woman driving with a baby in the back seat. She had a burger in her left hand, a cigarette and phone in her right hand, and was stearing with her left wrist. 

The funniest part? She had one of those "Baby on Board" stickers on the back of her car. 

If it was not for her innocent baby, I would have wished Darwin to strike.


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## Old Wizard (Dec 16, 2016)

My new KIA is a power hog! It doesn't like -20C and if not driven for a day, it won't start.
Turns out these new hi-tech vehicles turn the alternator off and on to improve fuel economy,
This leaves the battery at a disadvantage of not being charged enough if not driven. Part of an auto
salesman's kit nowadays is as small booster pack for just such occurrences.

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## fastmongrel (Dec 17, 2016)

Old Wizard said:


> My new KIA is a power hog! It doesn't like -20C and if not driven for a day, it won't start.
> Turns out these new hi-tech vehicles turn the alternator off and on to improve fuel economy,
> This leaves the battery at a disadvantage of not being charged enough if not driven. Part of an auto
> salesman's kit nowadays is as small booster pack for just such occurrences.



I have a very small Lithium Ion booster pack its about the same size size (but thicker) as an iPhone and weighs next to nothing but can spin a 3 litre engine. Its amazing what they can do with batteries these days I have used it dozens of times and only once has it failed but the temperature was well below freezing and the pack was cold. I warmed it up and Brrrrmmmm it started the car


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## Old Wizard (Dec 17, 2016)

I have a 10 year old Prestone gel cell booster which should have died years ago, but still works.


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