# Mid-air collision at Duxford- Mustang lost/ Skyraider damaged!



## v2 (Jul 10, 2011)

Reports of an incident at an airshow suggest a mid-air collision has taken place.

Duxford Imperial War Museum has confirmed an incident took place but has yet to give details.

The museum is hosting its annual and hugely popular Flying Legends event this weekend.

It is thought the mid-air collision involved two planes, one being a P-51 Mustang. Only one plane was reported to have got into difficulty.

The pilot is said to have parachuted to safety and the pilot of the other plane was uninjured.

Eyewitnesses reported two planes "wobbling" in mid-air resulting in one of them losing part of a wing.

Mid-air collision at Duxford | World Warbird News


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## evangilder (Jul 10, 2011)

Damn. Glad the crews are okay though.


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## Shortround6 (Jul 10, 2011)

Good news about the pilots at least.


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## rochie (Jul 10, 2011)

some of the guys are there so i'm sure we'll get a report soon enough !


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Jul 10, 2011)

Glad the pilots are ok but sad news about BBD.


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 10, 2011)

Glad they are ok, but DANG IT about the P-51!


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## Airframes (Jul 10, 2011)

[email protected] ! I had a premonition in the early hours of this morning that a Mustang crashed at Duxford!! Scary !
Gla to know there are no casualties, but sad about BBD, and the possible 'bad press' for airshows and warbirds in particular.
No doubt Gary, Tony or Roman will provide details.


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## TheMustangRider (Jul 10, 2011)

Another accident, hope this is the last this year.
Losing warbirds is becoming too frequent and that we can't afford.


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## Micdrow (Jul 10, 2011)

Wow another warbird lost, such a shame. If it is truely Big Beautiful Doll then its another photo I will have to treasure as there will be no more.  to the skyraider pilot on successfully landing his plane and that no one got hurt.


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## imalko (Jul 10, 2011)

Shame about the aircraft, but at least the crew is okay.


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## Gnomey (Jul 10, 2011)

Real shame about the loss of the aircraft but at least the crews are OK. That is the main thing at the end of the day.


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## P-40K-5 (Jul 10, 2011)

heres the pic of the skyraider: note the tailwheel also.


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## Crimea_River (Jul 10, 2011)

Sickening.


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## Wirbelwind (Jul 10, 2011)

BBD was the same Mustang that featured in Saving Private Ryan.


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## evangilder (Jul 10, 2011)

The tailwheel is fine. They are always canted like that.


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## TheMustangRider (Jul 10, 2011)

Max89 said:


> BBD was the same Mustang that featured in Saving Private Ryan.


 
I had that thought in the back of my mind when I first saw the thread, this is really a sad day for the P-51 lovers.
Big Beautiful Doll was indeed a beautiful doll.


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## Njaco (Jul 10, 2011)

This is being posted on the Classic Aviation Facebook page as a pic just before the accident. Its the middle P-51 that collided with the Skyraider.


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## Coors9 (Jul 10, 2011)

Man oh man....


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## B-17engineer (Jul 10, 2011)

Video of the skyraider 


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JVYYKF4ZaI_


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## Jeff hawkins (Jul 10, 2011)

It is so terrible when accidents happen, but, when you have such beautiful aircraft, no one can appreciate it unless they hear it, smell it, and see it fly with such beauty. Cant respect them as much when they on static display. BBD was a Gorgeous aircraft it WILL be remembered by thousands of endearing warbird enthusiasts


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## Airframes (Jul 10, 2011)

Hell's Teeth! I'm amazed and ed at the reaction (or lack of it!) of the 'crowd' of bl**dy anoraks who appeared to be (in the video) the enclosures pre-booked for 'Gold' entry or VIPs etc, with their ill-informed chatter, non-interest in their surroundings, no clue what so f****ng ever of what was what and who was who, and general lack of basic observation skills!!!
Even when the F&R trucks were going out, there was no bl**dy reaction!


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## trackend (Jul 11, 2011)

Sad news at the loss of P51 Big Beautiful doll after a mid air collision with a Skyraider at this years Flying legends airshow.
It had already been an eventfull day with one of the three Fokker tri planes in this years show catching a wing tip in Duxfords grass runway and doing a slow motion nose over and ending up balanced on its airscrew boss the pilot the aircraft was totally uninjured and after rotating the plane to bring the 2 blade prop back inline with the wings she was lowered back on to her under carriage undamaged.
However later in the day after the end of the traditional 50 plane Balbo fly past each group of aicraft peeled to port for the down wind leg along the airfields southern perimeter before finals. 
A group containing three aircraft, P51 Big Beautiful Doll one of the two Horsemens P51's at this years show and a Sky raider while carrying out this manouver that the sky raider and Big Beautiful Doll collided the Skyraider loosing 6 feet of starboard wing tip and the P51 most of the tail section The sky Raider went into a dive increasing air speed and managed to complete the circuit and landed safely however Big Beautiful Doll was un-recoverable and the pilot made a very low level bale out at approximatly 200-300ft the canopy deploying successfully and he walked away from the crash (with just a hospital check up being required according to the airfield announcement)
Big Beautifull Doll crashed in a wood and farm area a few hundred yards beyond the end of the airfield.
It is sad to loss of this well know aircraft but it could have been much worse had either of the pilots been killed or injured.
However after any CAA investigation has been concluded one wonders what impact it will have on the future of Duxfords unique signature mass fly past, The Balbo 
I have a couple of snaps of the damaged SkyRaider I will put up once post processing is completed.


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## seesul (Jul 11, 2011)

Hi Lee, I found this sad news few minutes ago at horsemen web and came here to check if anyone already posted someting.
Were you there durig the accident? I was here only on Fri and Sat.
I´m glad that the pilot was saved but Beautiful Doll was sooooo beautiful...and my favourite P-51D 'February' was in the formation too...

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qME7VefLxFw_


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## seesul (Jul 11, 2011)

I wasn´t at the airshow yesterday as I flew back home at 1:40 pm but just learned this sad news...Big Beautiful Doll was realy a beuatiful plane. Also my favourite 'February' was in the formation during the accident...
I´m glad the pilot was saved but that P-51 destroyed is really a big loss...I toke few pics of her on Saturday and will post them yet.


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## marshall (Jul 11, 2011)

Sad news, Big Beautiful Doll was one of my first models...


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## Will_Derby (Jul 11, 2011)

all abit of a bad show really, The Skyraider broke off formation and seamed to cut the corner, didnt think anything of it and returned my attention to the landing aircraft for a split second before seeing a pieces of wing fall to the ground where i saw a orange shoot open and the Mustang fall to the ground at around a 30 degree angle before disapearing behind the trees in the distance....apparenly into a farmers crop field, didnt hear any explosions or anything though which i thought was alittle odd. The Skyraider pilot then showed some brilliant flying as him managed to land his stricken plane, He was lucky that the alieron on the right wing stayed fixed to remaining wing

Unfortunately this was the end to a wonderful, but eventful weekend of flying. A great loss , but i am sure the memory of the BBD will go on!
Video of the collision


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qME7VefLxFw_

The Faited Formation





The Skyrader after the collision













the Remains of BBD-


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## jjp_nl (Jul 11, 2011)

A very sad incident indeed, but let's be thankful nobody was hurt. Sad BBD is lost though. On a side-note it's an example (albeit a very sad, and possibly also a live-saving one in this instance) of what a tough plane the SPAD must have been in it's hey-day


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## Njaco (Jul 11, 2011)

THX for the vid. Some crazy comments posted there.


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## Njaco (Jul 11, 2011)

Sorry Track but we have a thread going. I'm gonna merge with the other one...


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## seesul (Jul 11, 2011)

Another video, 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_A4xdGFXoE_ , time 00:50.
Do the warbirds (fighters) have the ejection seat today? I didn´t know it.
The ejection altitude was pretty low. Pilot´s excellent reaction saved his life.


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## Thorlifter (Jul 11, 2011)

Heartbreaking to know another warbird is lost. It makes me really nervous about MAAM's P-61 they are restoring to flight status. We already lost the B-17 Liberty Belle, a Supermarine SeaFire (but should be repairable), and now Big Beautiful Doll. And that's just this year.........


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## tyrodtom (Jul 11, 2011)

seesul said:


> Another video,
> _View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_A4xdGFXoE_ , time 00:50.
> Do the warbirds (fighters) have the ejection seat today? I didn´t know it.
> The ejection altitude was pretty low. Pilot´s excellent reaction saved his life.




A1's had ejection seats installed during the Vietnam era. They had a rocket attached to the seat by a sort of bungee strap, a softer kind of ejection than the usual set up.
It shouldn't be that hard to fit such devices to other aircraft. The testing required on each aircraft for FAA approval would probably drive cost out of reach though.


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## seesul (Jul 11, 2011)

tyrodtom said:


> A1's had ejection seats installed during the Vietnam era. They had a rocket attached to the seat by a sort of bungee strap, a softer kind of ejection than the usual set up.
> It shouldn't be that hard to fit such devices to other aircraft. The testing required on each aircraft for FAA approval would probably drive cost out of reach though.



This set of pictures makes me think Big Beautiful Doll had an ejection seat too. Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Mustang lost at Duxford / Skyraider damaged. No serious injuries
It´s maybe a rule today. Just my guess.


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## tyrodtom (Jul 11, 2011)

I can't see the seat separate from the pilot, it would be big enough to show in those photos.
But he sure gets a good distance from the aircraft for it being upright. Maybe he's just a quick pilot with some very strong legs.


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## Mustang nut (Jul 11, 2011)

Thats a real shame, from the video I cant see who was at fault if anyone. If that happened to me my butt cheeks would act in place of an ejector seat.


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## seesul (Jul 11, 2011)

tyrodtom said:


> I can't see the seat separate from the pilot, it would be big enough to show in those photos.
> But he sure gets a good distance from the aircraft for it being upright. Maybe he's just a quick pilot with some very strong legs.



O.k., let´s see, maybe somone from this forum will know more about this, maybe Eric (Evangilder)?


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## tyrodtom (Jul 11, 2011)

I checked the ejection seat site listed on this forum. The type of ejection system used on the A1's I was talking about didn't actually use the seat, it jerked the pilot out of his seat by his parachute harness via a bungee strap attached to a rocket. This is all just guessing on my part, but such a system wouldn't be impossible in that Mustang.


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## evangilder (Jul 11, 2011)

I don't know about regulations in the UK, but I believe that active ejection seats on non-military aircraft is not allowed by the FAA here in the US.


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## tyrodtom (Jul 11, 2011)

evangilder said:


> I don't know about regulations in the UK, but I believe that active ejection seats on non-military aircraft is not allowed by the FAA here in the US.


Does that include aircraft operated in the experimental catagory ?


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## Thorlifter (Jul 11, 2011)

Are the owners of the warbirds able to get insurance to cover the value of the planes?


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## v2 (Jul 11, 2011)

Display pilot's incredible escape from World War Two fighter as he bails out after mid-air collision at airshow | Mail Online


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## Coors9 (Jul 11, 2011)

WOW, Brought tears to my eyes.


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## Readie (Jul 11, 2011)

Another classic US warbird gone...
Such a shame.
All I can think to say is that it could have been worse...someone may have died.
I very sorry for the fans of the P51,
John


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## The Basket (Jul 11, 2011)

That Skyraider must be well built to survive that.

Looks like all 3 aircraft were doing hard left breaks but the first Mustang didnt go in hard enough so the Skyraider which was going in hit it.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 11, 2011)

Hey folks; a few clarifications and opinions…

US experimental aircraft can have live ejection seats but depending where you're operating and what FSDO you're dealing with will determine if you're going to cost effectively operate your aircraft. To be honest, I would not punch out of an aircraft with a 30-year old seat. Ejection seats (unless they are the most modern, installed on the most modern aircraft) are not the great saviors they are thought to be and sometimes cause more fatalities than they save, especially if we’re talking civilian war birds. There have been very few civilian operators survive an ejection in a stock seat and its quite expensive to put a seat in a WW2 war bird or to mod a jet war bird with a modern hot seat. Personally I wound not punch out of any hot-seat airplane unless I saw the wings coming off or if I was flying in an F-15.


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## tyrodtom (Jul 11, 2011)

I can remember several ejection seat fatalities when I was in the USAF in the late 60's. Mostly ground crew riding seats that weren't safetied after flight. 
One poor guy at Seymour Johnson AFB went right thru the hanger roof.

I was Lowry AFB in Colorado in 65-66, they had a ejection seat trainer there for the cadets at the academy. It would shorten them by approximately 1 inch for a few days, because it compressed the vertabrae in their spine. Ejection seats are a rough ride, but look at the alternative.


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## Gnomey (Jul 11, 2011)

Damn! Those videos are scary, that was pretty close. Just glad that both pilots got down to earth safely.


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## Airframes (Jul 11, 2011)

BBD did not have an ejection seat, but the pilot had fantastic reactions to jettison the canopy, undo the seat harness and push out in time. And he got stable before opening the parachute canopy !


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## evangilder (Jul 11, 2011)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Hey folks; a few clarifications and opinions…
> 
> US experimental aircraft can have live ejection seats but depending where you're operating and what FSDO you're dealing with will determine if you're going to cost effectively operate your aircraft. To be honest, I would not punch out of an aircraft with a 30-year old seat. Ejection seats (unless they are the most modern, installed on the most modern aircraft) are not the great saviors they are thought to be and sometimes cause more fatalities than they save, especially if we’re talking civilian war birds. There have been very few civilian operators survive an ejection in a stock seat and its quite expensive to put a seat in a WW2 war bird or to mod a jet war bird with a modern hot seat. Personally I wound not punch out of any hot-seat airplane unless I saw the wings coming off or if I was flying in an F-15.


 
I was thinking if anyone would know, it would be you, Joe. I don't recall seeing any aircraft in the civilian world that had hot seats. Not that there aren't any, I have always seen them with the charges out.


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## Gixxerman (Jul 11, 2011)

What a shame, BBD was one of my fav Mustangs and always worth a look at Duxford when I lived in that part of the world.
It looks like there wasn't much of a fire at the crash site (if any) so perhaps if nothing else BBD can be scavenged to help another P51 make it to ground display (....or better?).
Terrible when rare planes die like this, Duxford has seen it's fair share of this too, the disastrous Blenhiem crash springs to mind.
Tragic stuff.


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## Crimea_River (Jul 11, 2011)

You know, looking at the vids, the 3-ship formation was quite a way further down the field than the other formations before BBD broke away. It didn't look as if the break was timed as well as the others.


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## beaupower32 (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks Njaco, I see the thread now. Its a shame to lose another Warbird.


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## Njaco (Jul 11, 2011)

Beau, sorry but we have a thread already. Gonna merge with this thread with it.


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## icepac (Jul 12, 2011)

Nice to see no bad injuries.

He was out of that mustang so fast I wonder if he wasn't already on his way out when they collided.

From the videos of the earlier fly-bys and break turns, the mustang is the only one that suddenly stopped turning midway through the turn as well as descending before they collided.

He was still banked but no longer climbing or turning.

I wonder if he had a failure of the plane before they collided.


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## seesul (Jul 12, 2011)

evangilder said:


> I was thinking if anyone would know, it would be you, Joe. I don't recall seeing any aircraft in the civilian world that had hot seats. Not that there aren't any, I have always seen them with the charges out.


Thank you Eric and Joe! Now it´s more clear. Now knowing that there was no ejection seat in that Mustang it seems like the machine had some troubles before the collisoin yet...as I´m wondering that he was able to leave the plane so fast. Just my thought...


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## seesul (Jul 12, 2011)

icepac said:


> Nice to see no bad injuries.
> 
> He was out of that mustang so fast I wonder if he wasn't already on his way out when they collided.
> 
> ...



That´s also my opinion. Let´s wait for the result of the investigation.


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## Mustang nut (Jul 12, 2011)

Here is the accident from another angle 

Video: US Fighter planes collide during Duxford air display - Telegraph

interesting how it looks slightly different


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## Njaco (Jul 12, 2011)

> I wonder if he had a failure of the plane before they collided.



Thats my thought, too, based on those vids.


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## B-17engineer (Jul 12, 2011)

I thought people reported things flying off the 51's wing?


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## Mustang nut (Jul 12, 2011)

B-17engineer said:


> I thought people reported things flying off the 51's wing?



From the second video it looks like the P51 struck the skyraider which was trying to get out of the way.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 12, 2011)

evangilder said:


> I was thinking if anyone would know, it would be you, Joe. I don't recall seeing any aircraft in the civilian world that had hot seats. Not that there aren't any, I have always seen them with the charges out.


 
Dealing with the "aviation Nazis" (you know who I'm talking about) especially out of VNY, it's just best not to even attempt to arm any kind of hot seat. Depending on what type of plane you're talking about it will be almost impossible to install cartridges that are not expired - that's how the Feds keep some war birds on the ground.


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## evangilder (Jul 12, 2011)

A couple of things about this incident that I want to point out. My mailbox has literally exploded with discussions from multiple flying groups I associate with. 

It is impossible to know what was happening in the cockpit of either airplane, so to speculate if Davies should have bailed out is unfair and wrong. Unless you're in that seat as the pilot in command, you cannot say what he should or should not have done. In an emergency, especially at low altitude, you have one shot to get it right. The Skyraider hit the Mustang about where the control lines for the tail surfaces are. Mustangs can be a handful to land in perfect conditions. Safety of the crew and the people on the ground are the most important things to consider.

Pop top breaks are impressive to watch, but are more dangerous than echelon breaks. I prefer to do echelon breaks (if I have input on the pre-flight briefing) for 2 reasons; *safety* and it makes better shots. 

The Skyraider pilot lost sight of his lead. However or whatever happened, that is the most dangerous situation in formation flying. If you can't see your lead, you have no idea where he is and this kind of thing can happen. It only takes a second of lost focus to create a disaster. 

Gents, if any of you go flying in a warbird, listen carefully and follow all the instructions of the PIC (pilot in command). If you are unsure, ASK! Make sure you know what you need to if the fit hits the shan. The last thing you want to be during an emergency is unsure. A good presentation on parachutes and egress safety is here:
http://www.dsls.usra.edu/20071023_silver.pdf


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## Mustang nut (Jul 12, 2011)

evangilder said:


> The Skyraider hit the Mustang about where the control lines for the tail surfaces are. Mustangs can be a handful to land in perfect conditions. Safety of the crew and the people on the ground are the most important things to consider.
> [/url]


 
Evan from the video on the telegraph it looks like the Mustang rear wing hit the skyraider wing from behind as the sky raider tried to turn away.


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## evangilder (Jul 12, 2011)

Look closely at the video on flyingfilms. You see the Skyraider wing hit the Mustang hard enough to put substantial yaw into the Mustang. It didn't just hit the rear stabilizer and stop. It was a hard hit, hard enough to crumple the area just forward of the horizontal stabilizers, where the control cables run.


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## evangilder (Jul 12, 2011)

Okay, I did a frame by frame step through and the hit was worse than I had originally though. Here is the moment of impact. At full speed, it looks like the Skyraider wing only impacted the horizontal stab on the Mustang. It is actually further forward than that. This could have been WAY worse than it was.


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## Thorlifter (Jul 12, 2011)

Thorlifter said:


> Are the owners of the warbirds able to get insurance to cover the value of the planes?


 
Does anyone know?


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## Mustang nut (Jul 12, 2011)

evangilder said:


> Okay, I did a frame by frame step through and the hit was worse than I had originally though. Here is the moment of impact. At full speed, it looks like the Skyraider wing only impacted the horizontal stab on the Mustang. It is actually further forward than that. This could have been WAY worse than it was.


 

Thanks for that evan....it certainly could have been worse all round, very lucky that 1 plane and 2 pilots got out of it.


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## tyrodtom (Jul 12, 2011)

I don't know what the actual flying weight of each aircraft was at the moment of impact, but you've got a at least 7000lb Mustang colliding with a at least 11000 lb Skyraider, it tore part of the Skyraiders wing off, there had to be massive damage wherever the wing impacted the Mustang.


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## Airframes (Jul 12, 2011)

Thor, the general answer re insurance, in the UK anyway, is yes. Of course, it depends on the policy, but the operator would have to have public liability insurance also, for air show use, and this could also cover the aircraft against damage or loss. the rest, of course, is to cover loss on the ground, that is, buildings, land, structures, lives etc.


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## Thorlifter (Jul 12, 2011)

Thanks Terry. I figured they would have to have some liability insurance, but was also interested in covering the cost of the plane.


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## Messy1 (Jul 12, 2011)

That's a scary video. So sad to see another classic bird lost!!


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## seesul (Jul 12, 2011)

evangilder said:


> The Skyraider hit the Mustang about where the control lines for the tail surfaces are.


I think you got it Eric. This is what we spoke about with my friends yesterday. Also when you look at the video, Mustang goes down right after the collision with no sign of having it under control and that´s why the pilot decided to bail out.
1 second later and he wouldn´t survive.


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## evangilder (Jul 12, 2011)

I just got a note in e-mail from someone who spoke with him. After the collision, he had no elevator control. They think the wingtip of the skyraider either cut, or jammed the control cables just behind the radiator. At between 800-100 feet AGL, you have no time to over think.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jul 12, 2011)

evangilder said:


> The Skyraider pilot lost sight of his lead. However or whatever happened, that is the most dangerous situation in formation flying. If you can't see your lead, you have no idea where he is and this kind of thing can happen. It only takes a second of lost focus to create a disaster.


 
BINGO!!!


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## bobbysocks (Jul 12, 2011)

here's the pilot's interview...he is very gracious to say the least!


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLQsJS7zQOM_

and whoever finds fault with the pony jock hitting the silk has got to be crazy! they were a scant few hundred feet above the ground when the impact happened. he had to make a life saving decision in a split second. even then, he was DAMN LUCKY his chute even opened..let alone saved him with relative minor injuries. I love mustangs more than any other plane but they arent worth dying for. he made the right decision.


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## evangilder (Jul 12, 2011)

For another angle of the incident, click the link below. That was the only I looked at frame by frame. The second half of the video is in slow motion. What is amazing is how much yaw the 51 gets put into after the impact.


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## Njaco (Jul 12, 2011)

amazing


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## Messy1 (Jul 13, 2011)

Thorlifter said:


> Heartbreaking to know another warbird is lost. It makes me really nervous about MAAM's P-61 they are restoring to flight status. We already lost the B-17 Liberty Belle, a Supermarine SeaFire (but should be repairable), and now Big Beautiful Doll. And that's just this year.........


 
Agree with you there Thor! I'd hate to see the MAAM P-61 suffer a similar fate with how few of numbers of Black Widow there are left!


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## tyrodtom (Jul 13, 2011)

Just think of how many more people get to see it in it's full glory when it flys, get to hear it, touch it, maybe even take a tour through it.

I like to look at them in museums too, but sometimes it got about as much thrill to it as seeing a stuffed lion in a exhibit.


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## icepac (Jul 13, 2011)

To the skyraider pilot's point of view, this mustang disappeared behind him and visibilitiy of the mustang should have been reacquired as the skyraider performed his break.

I don't think the skyraider reacquired the leader because the leader was still behind him from his point of view and probably remained that way until shortly before the collision where it would look like he was running the skyraider down from behind and above.

The skyraider makes a parabola while the mustang performs a sharp break and bank before relaxing back pressure on the stick and is no longer carving a turn but rather flying nearly a straight line while in a steep bank.

This is why he was no longer climbing during his break turn like the others were.

If you bank sharply without back pressure on the stick, you do not climb but instead descend.

Since the mustang traveled a much shorter path than the other two, he should have passed through the point of collision long before the skyraider which makes me believe he had an issue with the plane before the collision.


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## stona (Jul 13, 2011)

I've seen a very good video of the incident and can say this. 4 seconds after the impact the hood is jettissoned. The P-51 starts to nose down and at about 14-15 seconds after impact the pilot abandons the aircraft. No ejector seat and he passes very close to the fin. I think his rapid decision to abandon saved his life.
Steve


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## Crimea_River (Jul 13, 2011)

And an amazing sequence of events it is for that pilot.


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## Njaco (Jul 14, 2011)

I was thinking along those lines icepac. Jettisoned that canopy pretty quick which makes me think something was going wrong before the collision.


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## Messy1 (Jul 14, 2011)

Could the reason the Skyraider caught up to the Mustang so quick be due to a mechanical or engine failure in the Mustang? It seemed to me the Mustang slowed way down compared to the Skyraider.


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## Mustang nut (Jul 14, 2011)

Njaco said:


> I was thinking along those lines icepac. Jettisoned that canopy pretty quick which makes me think something was going wrong before the collision.


 
From the hit it made just behind the pilots seat I am surprised it took him so long I bet he was surprised he still had a tail on. Another poster said he lost elevator control which to me would mean instant decision.

From pilots experiences in the BoB, quick as the pilot was the time he took would enrol him in the guinea pig club if he was lucky.


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## evangilder (Jul 14, 2011)

He had no elevator control and jettisoned the canopy in hopes of doing a wheels up landing. Realizing he had no pitch control at all, he made the right decision to jump. There wan't anything wrong with the Mustang prior to the collision. Remember that these are dissimilar aircraft, so they handle differently. The Skyraider pilot lost sight of his lead. Once you lose visual on your lead, you're in deep guano.


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## Messy1 (Jul 14, 2011)

Thanks for the info Evan.


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## BikerBabe (Jul 14, 2011)

I've just watched the video, and I am incredibly happy and relieved that both pilots are okay.
And I think it is so very very sad that the P-51 was lost.


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## icepac (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm sure he found the stick stuck in pitch and probably found rudder pedals non-moving as well.

He probably popped the canopy right away since canopy release is standard proceedure for all emergency landings in the mustang and probably did so while trying and successfully righting the plane with the one direction of control he had left.

I'll bet he tried the trim wheel before departing the plane and found it also stuck as it seems that all control cables for the tail section were probably pinched by the crushed bulkhead they pass through.

As someone who has experienced control failure that manifested itself by forcefully shoving them full deflection, he's pretty lucky he didn't get the stick shoved into his lap which could have pinned him in the plane.


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## pbfoot (Jul 14, 2011)

I've watched 1000's and 1000's of aircraft break and for the life of me can't figure out why the middle bird pitched or broke first ,there must be a reason military formations don't break that way


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 14, 2011)

Amazing


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## danjama (Jul 14, 2011)

pbfoot said:


> I've watched 1000's and 1000's of aircraft break and for the life of me can't figure out why the middle bird pitched or broke first ,there must be a reason military formations don't break that way


 
The how's and the why's don't matter - what matters is that what they discussed and agreed to beforehand was executed.

BTW I was there at the event. To the rude poster on page 1 of this thread, moaning about people's reactions - the airshow was ending. The final elements of the second group were all that were left to land. The show was basically over - most were on their way to the exit, or packing things. Most did not even know something had happened because the commentators didn't mention it until after the event was over and both pilots were confirmed ok! So next time, try and reserve your reaction until you know the facts. Once the event was made public, most people became very vocal with their concerns, and the mood was very sombre. People were literally mourning for the 'Doll.

I can assure you that at that point in the day and on that part of the airfield, what was left was mostly enthusiasts, as your average person had left to beat the traffic. The shock of the accident was horrible.


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## Njaco (Jul 14, 2011)

Airframes is not exatcly the 'rude' person you think he is and I'm sure he was reacting to what came across in the video - not what wasn't. He doesn't need me to defend him, but I'm quite sure his reaction was he is genuinely concerned about the pilots and the planes and the possible lack of that shown in the video.


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## danjama (Jul 14, 2011)

Njaco said:


> Airframes is not exatcly the 'rude' person you think he is and I'm sure he was reacting to what came across in the video - not what wasn't. He doesn't need me to defend him, but I'm quite sure his reaction was he is genuinely concerned about the pilots and the planes and the possible lack of that shown in the video.



Fair enough. I've slightly edited my post to reflect your point, and also because my initial reaction was quite angry.


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## Crimea_River (Jul 14, 2011)

Well said Chris.


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## evangilder (Jul 15, 2011)

pbfoot said:


> I've watched 1000's and 1000's of aircraft break and for the life of me can't figure out why the middle bird pitched or broke first ,there must be a reason military formations don't break that way


 
It's called a "pop-top break". Lead usually breaks first in any formation and from the vee formation, that's the only way to break. When executed correctly, it looks pretty cool, but has inherent dangers. But like any other break or formation flying in general, you have to keep visual on your lead. If you lose visual on your lead, it should be briefed with knock it off procedures which need to be followed. The good news on this one is that everyone survived and the lessons learned from this incident helps everyone fly safer.


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## pinsog (Jul 15, 2011)

Immediately following the collision, smoke pours out of the Skyraiders exhaust. Did he bury the throttle to pick up speed?


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## Airframes (Jul 15, 2011)

In reply to Danjam - my apologies if you thought my comments rude, they were not intended to be. However, having worked on fire crew duties at many airshows, I am familiar with the reactions of 'the crowd' during or following such incidents, and well remember being asked by an 'anorak' after one fatal crash if it had been had been 'part of the show'. Having literally just returned to the airfield after digging down to the pilot, and being a signatory witness to the Doctor proclaiming said pilot dead, you can imagine my reactions at the time!


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## danjama (Jul 15, 2011)

Airframes said:


> ...well remember being asked by an 'anorak' after one fatal crash if it had been 'part of the show'. Having literally just returned to the airfield after digging down to the pilot, and being a signatory witness to the Doctor proclaiming said pilot dead, you can imagine my reactions at the time!


 
I actually can't imagine how infuriating and upsetting that must have been! I can't stand stupid or ignorant people. I just wanted to clear up any doubt - the people I met with at DX after the collision were concerned and saddened for the way the day ended - but of course relieved and impressed by Rob's bail out.


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## Airframes (Jul 15, 2011)

No problem. I understand that the majority of attendees will have been shocked, but relieved that the crews were OK. Unfortunately, as at any such event of this type, there are those who don't know, or care, what's going on,and don't really have a real interest in the aircraft (or cars at races, for example), and a few who actually hope their _will_ be a major incident.


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## Marcel (Jul 18, 2011)

Damn, I get on vacation for 2 weeks and my favorite P51 crashes. Good job on the pilot, was a narrow escape. Als do the skyraider pilot did a geat job of getting back. All's well for the people. Still a shame of the BBD. Have seen it a couple of times her in the NL.


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## Catch22 (Jul 18, 2011)

Wow, a little late, but what a terrible accident! Glad everyone's safe. Some good flying by that Skyraider pilot to keep that thing up in the air!


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## plan_D (Jul 20, 2011)

Where were you on the danjama, I was over near the land museum during the display so was on the "right" side when it happened. It certainly was a stunned silence when it happened and a lot of questions as to why his condition hand't been mentioned, which obviously led to fears of the worst. I don't understand why people leave before then because those final fly pasts are the best part; although I was mightly impressed by Sea Furies. Completely off the topic of the crash I was waiting for the P-47 to fly all day...which is why it pays to read the programme and find out it doesn't have a Permit to Fly...


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## danjama (Jul 21, 2011)

plan_D said:


> Where were you on the danjama, I was over near the land museum during the display so was on the "right" side when it happened. It certainly was a stunned silence when it happened and a lot of questions as to why his condition hand't been mentioned, which obviously led to fears of the worst. I don't understand why people leave before then because those final fly pasts are the best part; although I was mightly impressed by Sea Furies. Completely off the topic of the crash I was waiting for the P-47 to fly all day...which is why it pays to read the programme and find out it doesn't have a Permit to Fly...



Yeah i was so disappointed to read that the P47G was not yet ready; it's a proper beauty though - a Razorback and that paint scheme gets my juices flowing!

I was not quite near the land warfare hall - more like near the static f16(?) where the road splits, about 2 mins up from the AAM, sitting on the grass. I was looking away when it happened though (girlfriend distracting me), but I remember the noise.

I agree, the closing is one of the most important parts - not just as a spectacle, but because it's a good opportunity to catch the pilots/engineers.


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