# German 262's shot down



## bob44 (Oct 29, 2012)

Do we know how many 262's were shot down? 
Not including ground kills or 262's that were shot down taking off and landing. 
Actual air to air kills.
And what Allied aircraft shot them down?


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## CobberKane (Oct 29, 2012)

bob44 said:


> Do we know how many 262's were shot down?
> Not including ground kills or 262's that were shot down taking off and landing.
> Actual air to air kills.
> And what Allied aircraft shot them down?


 
ME 262s went down to the following fighters that I know of:

Spitfire IX and XIV
P47D
P51D
La-7
Tempest

Tempests were perhaps the most successful 262 killers, downing 20 of the Jets. It might be difficult to define exactly how many of these kills were 'during landing' - the 262 took a very long time to get up to full power after laeving the ground, and and also had a very long approach, so technically many of the kills might be said to be during landing or take-off even when they occurred kilometers from the airstrip.


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## Milosh (Oct 29, 2012)

CobberKane said:


> ME 262s went down to the following fighters that I know of:
> 
> Spitfire IX and XIV
> P47D
> ...



I don't know where the Tempest number came from but Thomas/Shores only gives 7 claims and 2 damaged Me262s.


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## drgondog (Oct 29, 2012)

CobberKane said:


> ME 262s went down to the following fighters that I know of:
> 
> Spitfire IX and XIV
> P47D
> ...



The 8th FC were credited with (IIRC) ~ 139 air credits against German jets of all types and ~110 air to air victories over the Me 262. The 56th got 7 as the 'all P-47' equipped and I think the 78th and 353rd got a couple more before transitioning to 51's. The P-51 was close to 100 and the 8th FC lost 12-15 fighters to Me 262s.

Also the P-51B scored a couple in fall 1944 (Ditto P-47M in 1945) - but have to check for totals.


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## Thorlifter (Oct 29, 2012)

So if the 8th shot down ~139 jets, how many losses did they suffer from the jets?


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## bobbysocks (Oct 29, 2012)

"The P-51 was close to 100 and the 8th FC *lost 12-15 fighters to Me 262s*."

or are you asking how many fighters and bombers?


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## Erich (Oct 29, 2012)

after studying this very interesting question for over 25 years have come up with about 125 262's and Arado 234/Me 163's shot down. still the question is the reality of the LW jet fighter pilots claims. JG 7 claimed 450 allied/soviet A/C alone, hardly true ...........


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## Thorlifter (Oct 29, 2012)

bobbysocks said:


> "The P-51 was close to 100 and the 8th FC *lost 12-15 fighters to Me 262s*."
> 
> or are you asking how many fighters and bombers?




Mmmmm, both I guess, just to see the numbers.


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## drgondog (Oct 29, 2012)

Thorlifter said:


> Mmmmm, both I guess, just to see the numbers.



Thor - my 12-15 figure comes from a deep dive into the MACR's for 8th and 9th AF FC. I do not have bomber losses as I have not examined all the 8th 9th BC MACR's.

The reason I have 12 is there is a definite link between an Eyewitness Report on the Macr involving a P-51 in combat with 262s.

The additional three include those 'unknowns' in which 262s were identified in the area of loss.


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## johnbr (Oct 29, 2012)

The Me 262 was like shooting ducks in a barrel on take off and landing.


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## Erich (Oct 29, 2012)

you guys remember the piston-engine jet A/C kills thread we started and was never finsihed ........in aviation forum I believe.


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## drgondog (Oct 30, 2012)

johnbr said:


> The Me 262 was like shooting ducks in a barrel on take off and landing.



Timing is everything - and also avoid the FW 190D airfield cover.


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## stona (Oct 30, 2012)

Dan O'Connell's Me 262 Production log lists the fate of 1200 of the roughly 1500 Me 262s produced. It's the best information available. Anyone with a spare day to trawl through the book could compile an accurate list of Me 262s shot down.

Steve


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 30, 2012)

We have an old thread that deals with recip/jet kills, not only from WW2 but in the post war years. I'll try to dig it up.


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 30, 2012)

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/piston-engine-aircraft-jet-kills-1226.html


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## Erich (Oct 30, 2012)

that's the thread I was talking about Gentlemen..........thanks Joe, will come up with rough claims of Allied fighters by JG 7 alone.........soon. will admit the last weeks taking on Soviet aircraft and armor with R4M's is quite scant there is practically nothing listed or very very little but JG 7 was quite active out of the Prague area fields.


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## bobbysocks (Oct 30, 2012)

drgondog said:


> Thor - my 12-15 figure comes from a deep dive into the MACR's for 8th and 9th AF FC. I do not have bomber losses as I have not examined all the 8th 9th BC MACR's.
> 
> The reason I have 12 is there is a definite link between an Eyewitness Report on the Macr involving a P-51 in combat with 262s.
> 
> The additional three include those 'unknowns' in which 262s were identified in the area of loss.



are you including the mid air collisions? IIRC there were 2 or 3 of those between 262s and 51s. i know of 1 for sure but thought i read of a couple others. would award a plane to both sides??


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## CobberKane (Oct 30, 2012)

A very well defended Duck. The LW used to line their approach and take-off runs with crazy mounts of flack - Tempests took such high losses from diving on landing 262s that they gave the tactic away.


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## Erich (Oct 31, 2012)

A/F defense of jets totally depended on what was available, seems JG 7 gave a good account of itself with multiple 2cm Flakvierlings in place and specially selected locations, the other jet units a different story they used whatever they had, single 2cm mostly.


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## drgondog (Nov 1, 2012)

CobberKane said:


> A very well defended Duck. The LW used to line their approach and take-off runs with crazy mounts of flack - Tempests took such high losses from diving on landing 262s that they gave the tactic away.



Cobber - in the winter/spring 1945 the collapse of terrritory by the Allies had one serious 'unintended' consequence. The withdrawal from airfields into a much more concentrated area brought a much higher concentration of 20mm flak to airfields like Letnany, Straubing, Oberpfhaffenhofen, Lechfeld, etc. The first three weeks of April 1945 strafing losses far exceeded the prior 5 months of strafing losses combined for 8th AF FC. For my father's group - which had the highest number of strafing credits for any fighter Group during WWII, you have to go back to August 1944, during heavy CAS in support of the breakout, to exceed April 1945.


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## drgondog (Nov 1, 2012)

bobbysocks said:


> are you including the mid air collisions? IIRC there were 2 or 3 of those between 262s and 51s. i know of 1 for sure but thought i read of a couple others. would award a plane to both sides??



I would have to dig out the Encounter Reports. If there was no witness, there would be no claim or credit and I don't recall offhand. There are so very few German "J" reports from 1945 attched to the MACRs that I could not get a cross correlation.


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## Erich (Nov 1, 2012)

Bill if you are talking about Fla 2cm and 3.7cm from 262 A/F's in 45 then it would be the RAF tackling KG 51 at it's bases of Rheine and Hopsten and JG 7 with the US and Soviets at Brandenburg-Briest / Brandis, later at Prague-Rusin and Saatz. you mention the other A/F's which were piston engine A/F's. As I mentioned in earlier post(s) JG 7 had the necessary Fla hidden within the trees and man made support towers, KG 51 and 54 did not quite have the heavier Fla emplacements nor the few recon units and experimental/factory defense units.


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## CobberKane (Nov 1, 2012)

drgondog said:


> Cobber - in the winter/spring 1945 the collapse of terrritory by the Allies had one serious 'unintended' consequence. The withdrawal from airfields into a much more concentrated area brought a much higher concentration of 20mm flak to airfields like Letnany, Straubing, Oberpfhaffenhofen, Lechfeld, etc. The first three weeks of April 1945 strafing losses far exceeded the prior 5 months of strafing losses combined for 8th AF FC. For my father's group - which had the highest number of strafing credits for any fighter Group during WWII, you have to go back to August 1944, during heavy CAS in support of the breakout, to exceed April 1945.



Yes, I've heard this. Something like a quad 20mm cannon array is hard to hit and easy to transport, so it makes sense that a retreating army would have more and more of them to allocate in defense of fewer and fewer assets - like the airfields from which the ME262s operated.


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## drgondog (Nov 3, 2012)

Erich said:


> Bill if you are talking about Fla 2cm and 3.7cm from 262 A/F's in 45 then it would be the RAF tackling KG 51 at it's bases of Rheine and Hopsten and JG 7 with the US and Soviets at Brandenburg-Briest / Brandis, later at Prague-Rusin and Saatz. you mention the other A/F's which were piston engine A/F's. As I mentioned in earlier post(s) JG 7 had the necessary Fla hidden within the trees and man made support towers, KG 51 and 54 did not quite have the heavier Fla emplacements nor the few recon units and experimental/factory defense units.



Erich - the 355th destroyed 262s on the ground at Kitzingen, Lechfeld, Neuberg and Linz in the SE corner during April


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## Erich (Nov 3, 2012)

test fields actually Bill, Kitazingen was home of part of NJG 6 units, 262's were landing everywhere and kaput, the pilots fled.......


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