# Japan unveils largest warship since WWII



## Thorlifter (Aug 6, 2013)

A flat top destroyer????? Who do they think they are kidding?

Japan Unveils Largest Warship Since World War II - ABC News







Japan on Tuesday unveiled its biggest warship since World War II, a huge flat-top destroyer that has raised eyebrows in China and elsewhere because it bears a strong resemblance to a conventional aircraft carrier.

The ship, which has a flight deck that is nearly 250 meters (820 feet) long, is designed to carry up to 14 helicopters. Japanese officials say it will be used in national defense — particularly in anti-submarine warfare and border-area surveillance missions — and to bolster the nation's ability to transport personnel and supplies in response to large-scale natural disasters, like the devastating earthquake and tsunami in 2011.

Though the ship — dubbed "Izumo" — has been in the works since 2009, its unveiling comes as Japan and China are locked in a dispute over several small islands located between southern Japan and Taiwan. For months, ships from both countries have been conducting patrols around the isles, called the Senkaku in Japan and the Diaoyutai in China.

The tensions over the islands, along with China's heavy spending on defense and military modernization, have heightened calls in Japan for beefed-up naval and air forces. China recently began operating an aircraft carrier that it refurbished after purchasing from Russia, and is reportedly moving forward with the construction of another that is domestically built.

Japan, China and Taiwan all claim the islands.

Though technically a destroyer, some experts believe the new Japanese ship could potentially be used in the future to launch fighter jets or other aircraft that have the ability to take off vertically. That would be a departure for Japan, which has one of the best equipped and best trained naval forces in the Pacific but which has not sought to build aircraft carriers of its own because of constitutional restrictions that limit its military forces to a defensive role.

Japan says it has no plans to use the ship in that manner.

The Izumo does not have catapults for launching fighters, nor does it have a "ski-jump" ramp on its flight deck for fixed-wing aircraft launches.


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## vikingBerserker (Aug 6, 2013)

Very cool! I wish they would have shown a pic of the top.


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## Matt308 (Aug 6, 2013)

And the Yamato was a fast frigate.


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## razor1uk (Aug 6, 2013)

I think the US/Pentagon would have to have okayed this privately, possibly even helped subsidise it in some way. 
With the contining Chinese forces modernisation and them having the Kiev Carrier with allegedly their own idigenous carriers in the pipeline, this isn't a surprise at all if I am/your honest.


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## swampyankee (Aug 6, 2013)

razor1uk said:


> I think the US/Pentagon would have to have okayed this privately, possibly even helped subsidise it in some way.
> With the contining Chinese forces modernisation and them having the Kutsenov Carrier with allegedly their own idigenous carriers in the pipeline, this isn't a surprise at all if I am/your honest.



Japan spends a very small fraction of its national income on defense; iirc, only about 1% of GDP. I also suspect that, for a number of reasons, Japan wants to keep a non-aggressive profile: Korea (both North and South), China, and Taiwan have outstanding grievances against Japan. Get too aggressive, like some of the most nationalist of Japan's ideologues (these are the people who killed authors for mentioning the Rape of Nanking in a Japanese history book) want and there is a significant chance that these countries would get much closer together (and, from what I've read from ROC sources, there is much less worry about a PRC takeover of ROC in Taipei than there is in, say, the Heritage Foundation).


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## GrauGeist (Aug 6, 2013)

All other facts aside...is that the Imperial Japanese war flag I see next to the national flag on the bow of the "destroyer"?


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## razor1uk (Aug 6, 2013)

Sort of yes, if you follow the propagandised allied idea that its their flag of all the (ex)imperial empire's forces... its AFAIK, their naval/maritime defence flag, not a 'war only' flag - the modern 'army' aka the ground denfence forces have a flag of different design with roughly half the number of sun rays, also the army one is more angular at the end of each 'ray'.

I think the naval flag no longer has 18 rays corresponding to the 18 points of the royal chrysanthemum (spelling), I believe its 16 now, and 8 for the army flag.

Don't most nations forces have differing flags for their militaries maritime/waterway-forces, landforces and airforces?


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## GrauGeist (Aug 6, 2013)

That flag design used to be illegal in Japan much like the National Socialist flag is illegal in Germany.

I wasn't aware that Japan used that as a Naval Ensign, I've always seen the standard flag (plain white with red sun centered)


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## Matt308 (Aug 6, 2013)

While certainly the US was aware of this vessel, I highly doubt that the US was consulted for "approval". Rather, I would suspect that behind the scenes the US was supporting same. Especially given the F-35 development.


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## swampyankee (Aug 6, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> While certainly the US was aware of this vessel, I highly doubt that the US was consulted for "approval". Rather, I would suspect that behind the scenes the US was supporting same. Especially given the F-35 development.



I suspect the only US lobbying was to try to maximize the number of dollars that went to US defense contractors.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 6, 2013)

I doubt seriously that many U.S. defense contractors were involved in this project. The Japanese are right up there in the big leagues as far as manufacturing/hardware is concerned.


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## Matt308 (Aug 6, 2013)

Agreed. Not everything is a fricken conspiracy.


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## swampyankee (Aug 6, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> I doubt seriously that many U.S. defense contractors were involved in this project. The Japanese are right up there in the big leagues as far as manufacturing/hardware is concerned.



Yes, to the point that the US has to rely on Japan for many electronic components.


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## tyrodtom (Aug 6, 2013)

The flag with the off center sun and rays was the Imperial Japanese Navy flag, when it was a on center sun, with the rays, it's the IJA, the white flag with red sun is the national flag.
The old IJN flag was re-legalized about 20 years ago. I don't know if that's true about the old IJA flag also.


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## nuuumannn (Aug 6, 2013)

Clearly it's a helicopter carrier, but with the Japanese Self Defence Force not being able to acquire 'aircraft carriers' the name has been changed - just like the Brits did with the Invincible Class Harrier carriers, these were called 'through-deck cruisers' to get funding from the Treasury for their construction.


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## Shinpachi (Aug 7, 2013)

Battleship Yamato
Length 263m 
Width 38.9m 

DDH Izumo
Length 248m 
Width 38m

My frank impression as a Japanese is that Japan has totally recovered from the last war damage at last.
It's a matter of honor as an independent country.
I never mean it another war will come again.
There were many precious lessons in the past.


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## Thorlifter (Aug 7, 2013)

I can imagine the sense of pride Japan would have with this new ship. I feel the same way standing next to a battleship or aircraft carrier, or heck, even an airplane. From the one picture that is shown, it's a beautiful vessel.


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## Shinpachi (Aug 7, 2013)

I agree it's a beautiful vessel and looks functional even as a cargo ship too.
Frankly, I did not know the news till you, Thor, introduced it 
Thank you very much!


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## razor1uk (Aug 7, 2013)

She does have some nice graceful lines from that pictured angle...


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## parsifal (Aug 7, 2013)

wonder what the displacement is


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## razor1uk (Aug 7, 2013)

I'd say perhaps a bit below the Invinsible Class...


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## swampyankee (Aug 7, 2013)

If you believe wikipedia, full load is about 27,000 tons, vs about 22,000 (design?) for the Invincibles. This makes the JMSDF owners of the largest destroyer in history, almost twice the displacement of the former record holder, the USN's _Zumwalt_ class.


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## Matt308 (Aug 7, 2013)

27,000 tons, 5 "helicopter" pads, 7 ASW helicopters and 2 SAR. 2 CIWS and 2 SeaRAM. Full complement of 970.

"Forecast International has reported that some of the design changes with respect to the previous class are intended to support the Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey and Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II aircraft,[5] although neither the MOD or the JMSDF have ever mentioned the possibility of introducing fixed-wing aircraft."

I worry that China is gonna start flexing its muscle and Japan, Phillippines, Vietnam and Korea (not to mention Australia) are gonna ramp up.


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## razor1uk (Aug 7, 2013)

Even though its partially the fault of the ex Kiev and the possible ships being created from what was learned from that... Perhaps the media will be/are adding to the flames before the fire breaks form a smolder.


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## Matt308 (Aug 7, 2013)

Where does Indonesia fit into this equation. I know Singapore and Australia keep an eye on them, but is Indonesia considered allied with China? Or do they have regional differences too?


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## Procrastintor (Aug 7, 2013)

Upon seeing a pic of the top I think it is intended for use as an aircraft carrier, as there is no armament of any kind, on deck at least. However that may be for the best seeing as China's got one too.


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## michaelmaltby (Aug 7, 2013)

"...Where does Indonesia fit into this equation. I know Singapore and Australia keep an eye on them, but is Indonesia considered allied with China? Or do they have regional differences too?"

Everybody -- every nation-state -- worries about China.  Indonesia has oil, and China doesn't. North Korea perhaps not -- but they have bigger fish to fry than worrying about China .... Coastal and deep off-shore oil is the play China is making with their sword-rattling. Japan is just a whipping post for Chinese public opinion because it is ready-made.

MM


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## GrauGeist (Aug 7, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> ...I worry that China is gonna start flexing its muscle and Japan, Phillippines, Vietnam and Korea (not to mention Australia) are gonna ramp up.


There's been tension between China and Japan for quite some time and just recently there was a standoff between Japanese vessels and Chinese (accompanied by Russian ships who were on joint excersizes) near some disputed Islands (it's always disputed islands for some reason).



Procrastintor said:


> Upon seeing a pic of the top I think it is intended for use as an aircraft carrier, as there is no armament of any kind, on deck at least. However that may be for the best seeing as China's got one too.


The Chinese have two former Red Navy carriers (Varyag Kiev) that are full sized carriers stocked primarily with the Chinese Shenyang J-15. There are reports that they are in the process of building two of thier own with perhaps three more in the works.

The new "carrier" of Japan's is a far cry from what the Chinese have at the moment...


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## parsifal (Aug 7, 2013)

Australia wont change a thing if China starts pushing people around. Militarily we are firmly aligned with the US. Econmically our single biggest market is China, followed by Japan. We wont be getting into any barnyard brawls real quick on this i can tell you

Indonesia is officially part of thje non-aligned bloc. It is beginning to emerge as a major regional power, with its own agenda. It tends to be the leading nation of ASEAN along with Malaysia. Militarily the Indonesians have close ties with Australia and the US.

The Centre Of Strategic Studies at the Australian national University has pubkshed the following summary of Indonesian military alignment. 

"Consistent with its foreign policy of nonalignment, Indonesia maintained no defense pacts with foreign nations. It did, however, have military aid agreements with the United States and various other nations and participated in combined military exercises with several other countries. Over the years, Indonesia also supplied troop contingents--some involving either military or police personnel or both--to United Nations (UN) peacekeeping forces sent to the Suez Canal-Sinai Peninsula area (1957 and 1973-79), Congo (the former name for Zaire, 1960-64), the IranIraq border (1988-90), Namibia (1989-90), and the Kuwait-Iraq border (1991). In 1991 new UN support missions were sent to Cambodia and Somalia . 

Indonesia is a member of ASEAN, and although the organization is not a defense alliance, military cooperation exists between Indonesia and its ASEAN partners. This cooperation is conducted on a frequent and bilateral basis and included exchanges of military representatives at national defense institutions, periodic security consultations, and a series of separate bilateral combined military exercises. Following the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia in 1979, ASEAN foreign ministers meeting in Bali pledged their nations' support for the security of each of the other ASEAN nations, but stopped short of discussing the creation of a military alliance. The Cambodian peace accords of 1991 reduced tensions considerably. Moreover, there was a feeling of admiration for Vietnam's armed forces on the part of senior Indonesian military officers, particularly the powerful General Murdani. Murdani and others found much in common between the Vietnamese and Indonesian armed forces. They alone in Southeast Asia had fought against colonial powers for their independence, and both had based much of their military doctrine on the tenets of guerrilla warfare. It was this perceived relationship between Indonesian and Vietnamese military leaders that gave Indonesia the impetus to assume an influential role in the Cambodian peace settlement process. The Indonesian government continued to stress that defense cooperation among ASEAN nations was a function of each nation's right to protect itself and that bilateral cooperation would not lead to any bilateral or ASEAN-wide defense pact. Indonesia continued to support normalization of Vietnam's relationship with Western nations, particularly the United States. 

More recently, Indonesia has also held combined military exercises with nonASEAN nations, including Australia, Britain, France, India, New Zealand, and the United States. During the 1980s, defense officials suggested that joint border patrols might be set up with Papua New Guinea, and the two countries signed a status-of- forces agreement in January 1992. Indonesian troops sometimes crossed the border from Irian Jaya Province into Papua New Guinea in pursuit of armed insurgents. 

Indonesia has maintained military assistance agreements with several countries, most notably Australia. It also receives funded security assistance from the United States every year since 1950 except 1965 and 1966 when relations were at a low ebb. Grant aid of military equipment, which ended in 1978, averaged US$13 million per year and was used mainly for logistics equipment, communications systems, and combat matériel for internal security. The United States also provided grant aid training under the International Military Education and Training (IMET) program between 1950 and 1992, when the United States Congress cut the aid as a reaction to the human rights situation in East Timor. In that forty-two-year period, more than 4,000 Indonesian military personnel received IMET training in the United States. United States Foreign Military Sales credits were made available periodically to Indonesia starting in 1974, and have helped defray the expenses of purchases of United States-made military equipment. As of the early 1990s, Indonesia had also received military aid from Australia, Britain, France, the Netherlands, and West Germany, among others. Indonesia also acquired equipment from the Soviet Union in the early 1960s and, although most of it was inoperative by the 1970s, Jakarta continued to make payments to Moscow after the demise of the Soviet Union in 1991".


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## Torch (Aug 8, 2013)

Thought I read that indonesia is being run by a general now and has aligned himself with China.


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## Matt308 (Aug 8, 2013)

Great... then why are they wanting to buy so many ASW assets? To protect themselves from whom?


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 8, 2013)

Truly seems like a damn nice ship.
I would reinforce Pearl Harbour defenses...just in case.


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## Gixxerman (Aug 8, 2013)

Not to cause an argument but....



GrauGeist said:


> The Chinese have two former Red Navy carriers (Varyag Kiev) that are full sized carriers stocked primarily with the Chinese Shenyang J-15.



Last I saw the Kiev is a tourist attraction not stocked with anything, in fact there is mention of it being a floating hotel.

The Varyag has reportedly been used to trials but since it is said to lack a catapult launch system it's military value must be severely limited....which would explain why (from what I have read) it is being used to train and develop rather than being an actual fully operation carrier complete with squadrons of aircraft.

Training launches and recoveries aren't the same (and afaik even with a ski ramp a J15 has limited ability to carry large loads to good range). It's also a world away form a genuine 'carrier group', with all that entails in terms of training, tactics etc etc.



GrauGeist said:


> There are reports that they are in the process of building two of thier own with perhaps three more in the works.



We shall see....right now certain quarters are pushing a whole host of lurid tales of what China is supposed to be up to.
Besides even the idea of 2 - or 3 - new carriers (the other 2 even if they were to be used are ancient) pales against the array of US US allied forces that would be ranged against them, yes?



GrauGeist said:


> The new "carrier" of Japan's is a far cry from what the Chinese have at the moment...



I beg to differ.
The Japanese have just unveiled a fully operation small carrier and will incorporate it into a navy used to such things.
China has no naval air experience and is trying to acquire it.
That takes a lot of time from scratch.

The Kiev isn't anything but a floating curiousity and decades away from it ever being a military asset the Varyag is a clearly training vessel.
Yes the Chinese want naval air power....but they are no where even close to that as a regional power (and in global terms the notion is laughable).

Some seem intent on positioning China as a new 'cold war' enemy, from what I've read about the Chinese military they just aren't playing that game.
Of course they have long-standing border disputes (who doesn't in SE E Asia?) but that doesn't seem to me to be good cause to inflate every bit of info as if they are on the verge of being like the old USSR in the 50's, 60's, 70's early 80's.


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## parsifal (Aug 8, 2013)

Torch said:


> Thought I read that indonesia is being run by a general now and has aligned himself with China.



Not that I know of.. Indonesia has been pretty careful to maintain its non-aligned status, except f a brief flirtation with the Soviets in the 1960's. that almost brought them into a full war with Australia and other ASEAN nations. 

Of late it has tended to follow our lead....economic ties with the Chinese and Japanese, and a closer military relationship with the US. 

Unlikley that the Indonesians are siding with the Chinese. Closer friends (Vietnam, Philinnes and Brune) are all making claims on the Spratly Islands, to which the Chinese also have an ongoing claim. It would be an act of very bad faith for the Indonesians to start getting cosy with the Chinese, when their own friends are in dispute with the Chinese. Possibly, like the Australians, they have pandied to the Chinese for economic reasons but the military alignments remain firmly aimed at containment of the Chinese. 

Welcome to the New Middle Kingdom.


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## razor1uk (Aug 9, 2013)

CharlesBronson said:


> Truly seems like a damn nice ship.
> I would reinforce Pearl Harbour defenses...just in case.


Funny, I think if for the most FUBAReasonings. that the JSDF went overtly active on a aggressive warlike footing, the US wouldn't likely to be in their top 5 of nations to target, let alone risk loosing possible 'back up', or the threat of ICMBS, cruise-missiles and strategic delivery systems/weapons.

There's more chance, that another country would attack a small clutch of disputed islands (again?) as a diversion to internal problems politics than the JSDF doing similar in my mind at the moment Charles.


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## vikingBerserker (Aug 9, 2013)

IIRC one of the Chinese carriers were bought from the Ukraine under the agreement it would only be used for training and nothing else.


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## razor1uk (Aug 9, 2013)

That and the Russians/Ukrainians stripped out still useful/sensitive equipment from them as part of that same agreement I believe; The cost of buying, creating or retrofitting needed equipment fits into them for the PLMFC might make building their own more cost effective overall, and with a likely longer remaining service life too perhaps.

Looking at the picture again. there seems a very un-hydrodynamic looking structural support to the deck lift at the rear - perhaps this is more suited for largely coastal/sheltered waters? in stormier weathers that might slow her down and create some asymmetrical yawing drag.


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## parsifal (Aug 9, 2013)

Chinese Carrier aviation is far more advanaced than that, and Chinese experience in Carrier operation is well advanced. 

Chinese shipyards have gained some exposure to carrier design with the acquisition of retired hulls such as the Australian HMAS Melbourne acquired in 1985. The carrier was not dismantled for many years. Australian Intell repoted that the entire flight deck was removed from the hull in the '90s, and used as a deck landing instructional aid until at least 2002. The Chinese reverse engineered the entire catapult system from the ex australian Carrier as well. The last vestages of Melbournes identifable structure were not scrapped until 2005

Since 1985, China has acquired four retired aircraft carriers for study, the Australian HMAS Melbourne and the ex-Soviet carriers Minsk, Kiev and Varyag. Reports state that two 50,000–60,000 ton Type 089 aircraft carriers based on the Varyag, are due to be finished by 2015. Sukhoi Su-33s (navalized Flankers) are the aircraft most likely to be flown from these carriers, but China has also developed its own multirole fighter, the Shenyang J-15.

Delivery of the Varyag was obstructed by the Turkish govt in 1999, when the turks refused to allow the hull to be towed through the Bosphorus. This was probably a mistake, as the Chinese then swarmed over the derelict hull to glean every bit of information they could, and spured them to lay down three carriers of their own. The Russian (and Australian) carriers were never acquired for the purposes of operational service. they were acquired for information only, and the Chinese have been very efficient at doing this. minsk and Kiev are now floating museums in China. they are no longer part of the Chines Carrier program 

Varyag was eventually delivered, by which ime the Chinese had finalised their modernisation program for her. She was immediately put into reconstruction. The 67,500 ton ex-Soviet aircraft carrier , by than named Varyag (previously Admiral Kuznetsov class), was only 30% completed and floating in Ukraine, was purchased through a private Macau tourist venture in 1998. Following her troublesome tow to Dalian shipyard, the carrier has undergone a long refit. Varyag had been stripped of any military equipment as well as her propulsion systems prior to being put up for sale. In 2007 there were news reports that she was being fitted out to enter service. These proved to be true.

On 10 August 2011, it was announced that the refurbishment of Varyag was complete, and that it was undergoing sea trials.

On December 14, 2011, American Satellite imaging , indicated the retrofitted Varyag underway and apparently undertaking her sea trials. The American Intelligence report stated that their images captured the ship in the Yellow Sea where it operated for 5 days un work up trials.

In September 2012, it was announced that this carrier would be named Liaoning, after Liaoning Province of China. On 23 September 2012, Liaoning was handed over to the People's Liberation Army Navy, but is not yet in active service.

In November 2012, the first landing was successfully conducted on Liaoning with the new Shenyang J-15.


These developments have been viewed with a great deal of alarm across the region. Due to limited budgets, most carriers are multi role LPH (assault type ships) mostly with amphibious operations in mind. Ships that I know of include the two Australian BAE "Canberra" class LPHs (27000 tons). These ships are best described as helicotpe assault ships, and there are no plans to embark any fixed wing component permananetly on the ships. But then why are they being fitted with Harrrier jump jet style ski jumps......They have a capacity for up to 18 helos in the hangar, and the ability to accommodate up to 1400 personnel each, including and amphibious component of 1000 men each. Each ship has an internal wet dock for the LCs accessed from the big stern doors. they are co-designed by BAE in Australia along with the Spanish. Defence wont say, but I will lay money thet they are designed to accommodate the new F-35 Vstol versions .

The Thais also have a small ship they designate a carrier. The Royal Thai Navy also has two air wings, operating 40 fixed-wing aircraft and 30 helicopters from Utapao, Songkhla and Phuket. The First Royal Thai Navy wing has 4 squadrons and the Second Royal Thai Navy wing has 3 squadrons. 

The United States Navy and Royal Thai Navy conduct the annual joint operation Cooperation Afloat Readiness and Training (CARAT). CARAT is an annual series of bilateral maritime training exercises between the U.S. Navy and the armed forces of Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei and Philippines.

HTMS Chakri Naruebet (Thai meaning "In honour of the Chakri Dynasty") is the flagship of the Royal Thai Navy (RTN), and Thailand's first and only aircraft carrier. Based on the Spanish Navy's Principe de Asturias design and constructed by Spanish shipbuilder Bazán, Chakri Naruebet was ordered in 1992, launched in 1996, and commissioned into the RTN in 1997.

The aircraft carrier is designed to operate an air group of V/STOL fighter aircraft and helicopters, and is fitted with a ski-jump. Initial intentions were to operate a mixed air group of Matador V/STOL aircraft and S-70B Seahawk helicopters. However, by 1999, only one Matador was operational, and the entire V/STOL fleet was removed from service in 2006. Although Chakri Naruebet was intended for patrols and force projection in Thai waters, a lack of funding brought on by the 1997 Asian Financial Crisis means that the carrier has spent much of her career docked at the Sattahip naval base. The Thais have maintained her pretty well, despite this and she does remain an operational unit

The Thais learnt at their cost why Asian nations have to sometimes be very carful in acquisition of European equipment. . The carrier was designed to operate an air group of up to six AV-8S Matador V/STOL aircraft, plus four to six S-70B Seahawk helicopters. Chakri Naruebet is also capable of carrying up to fourteen additional helicopters (on deck) a mix of Sikorsky Sea King, Sikorsky S-76, and CH-47 Chinook, but there is only enough hangar space for ten aircraft.

The Matador is a first generation export version of the Hawker Siddeley Harrier, acquired secondhand from the Spanish Navy in 1997.The nine Spanish aircraft (seven standard version plus two TAV-8S trainer aircraft) were refurbished by Construcciones Aeronáuticas SA firm before delivery. By 1999, only one aircraft was operational, and the RTN was looking for other first-generation Harriers to cannibalize for spares.In 2003, the navy attempted to acquire several second-generation,ex-Royal Navy Sea Harrier FA2 aircraft from British Aerospace, but the deal did not go ahead. The inoperative Matadors were finally eliminated from service lists in 2006. Thailand was the last remaining government using first generation Harrier airframes.

The Koreans have 1 Dokdo class LPH, which are a8000 ton Amphibious assault ships. CAG of 10 helos, this ship has two LCs and a lift capacity for 700 marines. It has been designed to accommodate VSTOL, and the Koreans are considering purchase of the F-35B. One other ship in this class has been cancelled due to the economic downturn.


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## parsifal (Aug 9, 2013)

Indians have a large carrier as well. Though the primary objective of the navy is to secure national maritime borders, India also uses its navy to enhance its international relations through joint exercises, port visits and humanitarian missions, including disaster relief. It also has considerable rivalry with the Chinese, and in my opinion should be considered or allowed for in any regional containment assessment. In recent years, the Indian Navy has undergone rapid modernisation to replace its ageing equipment currently in service, this is often seen as part of "India's drive" to develop blue-water capabilities and enhance its position in the Indian Ocean region. As of 2013, the Indian Navy has a strength of 58,350 personnel and a large operational fleet consisting of; an aircraft carrier, an amphibious transport dock, eight guided missile destroyers, 15 frigates, one nuclear attack submarine, 14 conventional submarines, 24 corvettes, 30 patrol vessels, 7 mine countermeasure vessels and various auxiliary ships.

The naval air-arm is an important component of the Indian Navy. The Indian Navy air arm consists of Mikoyan MiG-29K and the Sea Harrier jets that operate from the aircraft carrier INS Viraat. The Kamov-31 provide the Airborne Early Warning cover for the fleet. In the anti-submarine role the Sea King, Ka-28 and the domestic built HAL Dhruv are used. The MARCOS use Sea King and HAL Dhruv helicopters while conducting operations. Reconnaissance operations are carried out by Boeing P-8 Poseidon, Tupolev 142, Ilyushin 38, Dornier Do 228 aircraft, as well as HAL Chetak helicopters. The Aircraft used for carrying out roles of a strategic bomber and as a maritime strike are carried out by 4(3 more on order) Tupolev Tu-22M, which is also capable of performing reconnaissance missions. The UAV arm consists of around 30 UAVs like Heron and Searcher-IIs that are operated from ships and shore for better surveillance. The Indian Navy also maintains a four aircraft aerobatic display team, the Sagar Pawan. The Sagar Pawan team will be replacing their present Kiran HJT-16 aircraft with the newly developed HJT-36 aircraft.

Following the purchase of the Soviet aircraft carrier "Baku" (to be recommissioned as INS Vikramaditya), India also purchased Mikoyan MiG-29Ks to operate from the aircraft carrier. The aircraft carrier is expected to become operational sometime after 2013. 


Vikramaditya meaning "Brave as the Sun") is a heavily modified Kiev class aircraft carrier. Its acquisition and refurbishment was protracted, to say the least, and the Indians may for a short time be left with no carrier. Her new configuration is nothhing lie the old Baku. 

Originally built as Baku and commissioned in 1987, the carrier served with the Soviet (until the Dissolution of the Soviet Union) and Russian Navies before being decommissioned in 1996 as it was too expensive to operate on a post-Cold War budget. These ships were never really a success, and the ship did fall into heavy disrepair during her decomissioned period. The carrier was purchased by India on January 20, 2004 after years of negotiations at a final price of $ 2.35 Billion. The ship has successfully completed sea trials and will now undergo aviation trials. She was expected to be in commission by fall 2013, but ive not heard whether this is still on track or not. Her main air group will be centred around the MIG 29. Given the trouble the Indians have had with the Russian suppliers, i bet they regret getting into bed with the Russians now. The Russians have been ruthless in thir dealings with the Indians, to the extent that the Indians seem to be swinging back to the west as theiur main source of military supply.


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## Shinpachi (Aug 10, 2013)

Nice wiki research, parsifal but frankly I want to bet our future on Mr James R Holms' analysis this time.

The Sino-Japanese Naval War of 2012 
BY JAMES R. HOLMES

Author concludes "Here's hoping China's political and military leaders understand all this. If so, the Great Sino-Japanese Naval War of 2012 won't be happening outside these pages."

Looks cool.


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## vikingBerserker (Aug 10, 2013)

Great info gents.


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## Procrastintor (Aug 10, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> There's been tension between China and Japan for quite some time and just recently there was a standoff between Japanese vessels and Chinese (accompanied by Russian ships who were on joint excersizes) near some disputed Islands (it's always disputed islands for some reason).
> 
> 
> The Chinese have two former Red Navy carriers (Varyag Kiev) that are full sized carriers stocked primarily with the Chinese Shenyang J-15. There are reports that they are in the process of building two of thier own with perhaps three more in the works.
> ...



I know that Japan's is smaller, but it is better than nothing, especially if its capable of carrying VSTOL aircraft.


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## parsifal (Aug 11, 2013)

Shinpachi said:


> Nice wiki research, parsifal but frankly I want to bet our future on Mr James R Holms' analysis this time.
> 
> The Sino-Japanese Naval War of 2012
> BY JAMES R. HOLMES
> ...



China wont do anything unless the US pulls out of the region, or is otherwise occupied. if that happens the chinese will all of a sudden get very pushy


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## parsifal (Aug 11, 2013)

one scenario is a shooting war on the korean peninsula. i can see the Chinese demanding the disputed territories in exchange for curbing their North koreanlap dogs


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## swampyankee (Aug 11, 2013)

parsifal said:


> China wont do anything unless the US pulls out of the region, or is otherwise occupied. if that happens the chinese will all of a sudden get very pushy



China can -- and has -- gotten very pushy without any kind of military threat. Just about every nation is in serious debt to them, and their just saying "we'll stop buying your bonds" would get most governments to alter their behavior. Also, I think a lot of corporations just love doing business in China: the government keeps the unions down, doesn't regulate work places, and even pays them to move there (a friend of my brother's was a senior accountant for a small manufacturing company in Rhode Island; one of China, Inc's operations offered to build and equip a factory for them if the completely shut down US manufacturing and moved it to China).


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## Shinpachi (Aug 11, 2013)

JMSDF has uploaded an official video.
You can check the deck too.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aozyIqsHbEY_


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## parsifal (Aug 11, 2013)

vwey clean, but no ski jump. until and unless fitted, sort of limits the Stovl capabilities of the ship. I suspect ski jumps have not been fitted so as to keep the Chinese soothed as to Japanese intent


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## parsifal (Aug 11, 2013)

> China can -- and has -- gotten very pushy without any kind of military threat. Just about every nation is in serious debt to them, and their just saying "we'll stop buying your bonds" would get most governments to alter their behavior.



They do have a lot of economic leverage, but i seriously doubt they would do any of that. Why....because it would hurt China more than it would hurt us. If they start economically blackmailing us, countries would run a mile from themn, and they need the export trade and dollars far more than we need their toasters. 



> Also, I think a lot of corporations just love doing business in China: the government keeps the unions down, doesn't regulate work places, and even pays them to move there (a friend of my brother's was a senior accountant for a small manufacturing company in Rhode Island; one of China, Inc's operations offered to build and equip a factory for them if the completely shut down US manufacturing and moved it to China)


.

China is actually very choosy as to what foreign investment it allows, and whom it allows to establish businesses in the country. They can be very difficult at times. And the biggest single inhibitor for foreign investment is corruption. China is trying to take steps to stamp it out, but its inherent to their system...so kinda like chasing your tail and biting it.

Generally, however, the Chinese have been very good at combining the best of the free market with their command economy. They plan everything, and it works. Chinese workers are increasingly becoming affluent, and increasingly that means their domestic market is increasing in importance. I dont know how far away it is for them to not give a rats about foreign investment and foreign exports, but they remain very careful at this moment

The only way the Chinese will move on this issue, is if they can somehow rough someone up without becoming the bad guy (more than they already are). The only scenario where I see possibilities like that might be korea, or if someone is dumb enough to attack them


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## Shinpachi (Aug 12, 2013)

Following the naming and launching ceremony this time, the delivery/reception ceremony will be like this after rigging.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om2DxeE7UYs_


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## parsifal (Aug 12, 2013)

I am convinced that the nations China intends to make its clients are not going to go down without a fight. Korea, Japan and Australia have all engaged in significant upgrades to their naval capabilities .

Ou chief air defence at sea will be our three Aegis Air warfare cDDGs, the Hobart Class


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwUvIDyQACE_


Our at sea air lift capability will for the time being remain rotary winged, but the ability of these ships to carry STOVL a/c is obvious given they are equipped with a ski Jump


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruiY-RUXtWM_


and finally some honest vision of the melbourne operating A4s in the early '70s. Its not scripted, and shows really clearly the dangers of operating fixed wing a/c on small carriers. i was a young recruit back then, not yet at sea, but my future CO, the late Dave Martin had already taken command of the ship

Apologies for the attrocious music score


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## parsifal (Aug 13, 2013)

forgot to add the vid, will try and track it down guys

)edit)

Here it is



_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy0vWedmc_4_


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## parsifal (Aug 14, 2013)

BUGGER OFF YOU BLOODY LOW LIFE

(Edit: I see the offending spammer has been dealt with....thanks)


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## Shinpachi (Aug 14, 2013)

An old ww2 mine estimated dropped by a B-29 onto the Kanmon Channel nearby Shimonoseki City was ignited by JMSDF yesterday!


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND6cPVpliFg_


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## parsifal (Aug 14, 2013)

great stuff Shinpachi Appreciate the vision. Ive excercised once with the Japanese Navy. Very capable, but language is a bit of an issue sometimes. 


Here is another clip of the melbourne on excercise in 1980 (IIRC). I think it was taken during RIMPAC, off Hawaii....yours truly onboard by then. Some of those guys I knew. I posted firstly because I think its very cool, but also shows the absolute rush that happens when a carrier is engaged in flight ops. i can honestly say there is nothin like it


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITMKiPdHqQI_


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## parsifal (Aug 14, 2013)

Thought it might be intersted to see what the Indian Navy is doing. They have comprehensively refitted the old Kiev Class Baku. And almost completedly refitted the ships systems and operational methods. I think she will be a success, but one has to wonder at the cost...$3.3 Billion US. They will need to get at least 25 years out of the hull for it to be cost effective....and that will make the ex-Baku a 50 year old hull when she is retired. Makes me doubtful



_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BRnsZKN2FU_


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjXkrohGfVQ_

I hate the music scores for these videos

This is some vision of deck ops for the Mig-29, which will operate from the Indian carrier


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3AMB7ZFF3Q_

And here is the Chinese Carrier test flying her new J-15. This is a very capable a/c, dont underestimate these guys


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqd8GiK_BGM_


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## parsifal (Aug 14, 2013)

The Indians also have a very significant domestic carrier construction program and aircraft development program underway for their Navy. Their Carrier Vikrant was launched in July, and is now scheduled to commission 2018. At 37000 tons she is a significant addition, and has an air groud of 36 a/c. She is to be followed by a much larger ship, the Vishal which at 65000 tons, and possibly nuclear powered is a very significant proposition. Once in place, this would make the Indian Navy one of the worlds largest


Vikrant-class aircraft carrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Shinpachi (Aug 15, 2013)

Nice videos, parsifal!

I remember a couple of Aussie guys came to Japan about 25 years ago.
One was from Brisbane, or its nearby, and I was unable to understand what he was talking about at all.
The other from Melbourne played a role as a translator for me.


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## vikingBerserker (Aug 15, 2013)

I have the same problems sometimes Shinpachi!


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## parsifal (Aug 15, 2013)

so do i....and im australian


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