# Sturmböcke in the East



## Udet (Dec 30, 2004)

Correct me if necessary (please):

If I recall correctly the three (or perhaps some of the three) Sturmböck gruppen (of JG3, JG4 and JG300, after Sturmstaffel 1), were moved east in 1945, right after having had some striking succeses in 1944 against the formations of B-17s and B-24s.

Furthermore, if I recall correctly it was still in early 1945 (January?) that the Sturmböcke still had some striking victories against the USAAF´s heavy bombers.

Does anyone happen to know when were the Sturm units moved east and which units did the change comprise?

Did the Sturm fighters were use as ordinary fighters against the VVS?

Any further input will be very greatly appreciated.

Cheers!


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## (G/C) Lionel Mandrake (Dec 30, 2004)

> Did the Sturm fighters were use as ordinary fighters against the VVS?


Dispite my Oxford education and cultured breeding, can some tell me what VVS means ?


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## Erich (Dec 30, 2004)

Udet you are correct !

All of JG 3 and JG 4 were moved by 15th of January to the Ost Front. Some SturmFw's remained in both these units and there was an influence of regular A-9's equipped with 4 2cm weapons as well as being unarmored. JG 300 and JG 301 stayed behind in the west and yes JG 300 scored some notable victories agasint US bomber formations, notably 14 of January 45, but in turn were really hit hard....

E ~


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 30, 2004)

(G/C) Lionel Mandrake said:


> Dispite my Oxford education and cultured breeding, can some tell me what VVS means ?



It refers to the Soviet Red Air Force. I've no idea what "VVS" actually stands for.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 30, 2004)

well they're obviously russian initials....................


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## (G/C) Lionel Mandrake (Dec 30, 2004)

Thanks chum  Erich, no chance you sending me a free signed copy of your next book?


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 30, 2004)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> well they're obviously russian initials....................



Care to translate?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 30, 2004)

how dare you ask a young man a question like that, there's laws against stuff like that you know..................


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## Nonskimmer (Dec 30, 2004)

Not in Nova Scotia!


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## Udet (Dec 30, 2004)

Lionel Mandrake:

I will be glad to increase your already vast culture:  

VV-S stands for: Voenno-Vozdushniye Sily. 

Being a Russian (50% 8) ) perhaps made me just type VVS rather than explaining a bit more on the meaning. 


Erich:

For one moment I had forgotten you were a member of the forum.
Thanks a lot for the input!

So there were some Fw190´s non fitted with the extra-armor? Well, can that perhaps lead to think they were not Sturmböcke as they had been deployed in the west against the USAAF heavies?

Another question raises, are there any records on the performance of the Sturm units in the eastern front?

Since the soviet air force did never produce any heavy bombers, the Sturm tactis weren´t necessary in the east?

Still I can imagine a formation of Sturmböcke intercepting a large formation of IL-2M´s. If the heavy bombers were to some extent "easy" victims (much larger and heavily defended targets) the Shturmoviks surely made even easier preys.


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## Erich (Dec 30, 2004)

hello again friend

yes the sturm wedge tactics were withdrawn and no longer used but with so much experience in clsoe-in fighting the German crews flew very close and blew away the opposition. Over all the sturm pilots in JG 3 were lost to Soviet Flak. My friend Oskar Bosch still flew his black 14 and then later black 13 on the Ost front. Both a/c were the heavy A-8/R8's SturmFw. He scored the last victory of the gruppe by playing the roulette game with a Yak pilot and they both rammed each other, the Soviet pilots a/c nearly vaporized upon the collision. Oskar bailed out almost right next to one of his undercarriage arms/wheel stuck two feet in the ground. He was to be almost immediately captured By the Soviets and held in captivity for several days till he escaped and was taken by friendly W-SS truppen. Sent to the back Oskar made his way on foot back to his home in Austria.

E ~


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## Udet (Dec 30, 2004)

Erich:

Thank you very much for both the info and your friend´s story!


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 30, 2004)

Hmm, never heard of a Russian in Mexico...


Anyway...

(Sorry for bad Spanish, I speak Portugese; Eu sou Brasileiro)


Quien es Cratero y quien es Hefestion?


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## Medvedya (Dec 30, 2004)

I have - a bloke called Trotsky - had a disagreement with an ice-pick whilst he was south of the border......


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## plan_D (Dec 31, 2004)

Yes, that must have stung a bit.


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## lesofprimus (Dec 31, 2004)

Speaking of stinging, pray u dont EVER see one of these at the beach....


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## Udet (Dec 31, 2004)

Germansrgeniuses:

It seems like you require an urgent update on immigration issues in Mexico. 

While being born in Moscow (Russian dad, British mom), when the USSR was already on the verge of collapse, I am not a Russian citizen anymore.

You would perhaps be surprised of how huge Mexico City is, and the numbers of people from all over the world living here are MASSIVE.

The Russian immigration to Mexico City was calculated around 65,000 people only in 2003. Of the several Philarmonic orchestras of Mexico City, I can tell you at least half of the musicians on each one of such orchestras are Russians (or coming from other former soviet republics).

Furthermore, do you know where the Yucatan peninsula is located? See the map of Mexico and you will see the country has a "hook" kind of shape. Well, the Yucatan peninsula would be the "sharp" end of the hook. All this to tell you, far more Cubans flee Mr. Castro´s private property to Mexico rather than to Florida. Curiously you never see that in the news. Mexico City is far more distant from La Habana than Yucatan is.


Regarding your question on who Hefestión and Cratero are.
One of my favorite history characters is Alexandros III Makedonon (Alexander the Great in english, Alejandro Magno in Spanish, etc.)

I have lots of historical books on Alexander, as well as a few excellent novels. My spanish has improved dramatically in recent months, then I came across a very good library here and bought me a novel (2 volumes) on Alexander; the author is a German guy: Gisbert Haefs.

Hefestión was the alleged lover of Alexander. Virtually of his same age, and also part of the macedonian nobility; also educated by Aristotle along with Alexander and the other boys of the macedonian nobility.

Crátero was also of the same age of Alexander, and became an officer in Alexander´s army throughout their amazing expedition to Asia.

Mr. Haefs depicts Hefestión as an arrogant wimp; the macedonian infantry (of peasants and sheperds) were nothing to him; just a bunch of filthy illiterates. 

The other side of the coin was Cratero (Craterus in English); although being part of the inner circle of Alexander, he was very close to the troops. The macedonian infantry loved him for sharing the bonfire with them, eating with them.

Then Mr Haefs tells it was a common said for the macedonian troops: "Preferible una marcha forzada con Cratero a un banquete con Hefestión", which can be roughly transltated as:

"Preferable to have a forced march with Craterus than a banquet with Hephastion".


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## GermansRGeniuses (Dec 31, 2004)

Hmmm, interesting...


Actually, I know where the Yucatan is, I live in California!


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## lesofprimus (Dec 31, 2004)

What I dont understand is how u can go from Russians in Mexico to Alexander the Greats Gay Boy Toy Hefestion in the same post.....


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## Udet (Dec 31, 2004)

Primus:

why are you so rude on me? 

Cheddar Cheese and LancKickAss post off-topic stuff at least 90% of the time.  

I was asked, I simply replied.

If you think you have anything interesting to add, back on topic, I will be pleased to read you.  

Cheers!


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## lesofprimus (Dec 31, 2004)

Are u outta ur damn mind????

First of all, it was intended for GrG...

Secondly, if u think that was rude, ur in for a RUDE awakening pal..... U'll know it if I decide to be "rude" to u....

Spend some time on a New York City Sidewalk, then ask me that same question....


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 1, 2005)

> Cheddar Cheese and LancKickAss post off-topic stuff at least 90% of the time



really, that little, it would appear we've let out standards slip


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## Udet (Jan 3, 2005)

Wooaaa, ain´t that agressive?

Come on Les, chill out!

You totally misunderstood me.


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## (G/C) Lionel Mandrake (Jan 3, 2005)

I think he's German..


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 3, 2005)

> Cheddar Cheese and LancKickAss post off-topic stuff at least 90% of the time.



Seriously mate it aint that much, I just go with the flow normally, but when im "on the flow" it likes going in other directions  Making a bold statement, the lanc appears to spam much more than me now...


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## Udet (Jan 3, 2005)

Guys can´t you just take some joke from time to time?

Can´t you see the smilies I put right there?

The 90% was the joke.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 3, 2005)

Sorry mate. I just quoted from the lancs quote, I didnt bother to actually go back and read the posts


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 4, 2005)

i remember the good ol' days when we rambled on for pages at a time of just spam...............


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 4, 2005)

Yep, that still happens occasionally  Usually at weekends, when we're online at the same time...


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 4, 2005)

Or those two great times when you were on at the same time as a drunken plan_D...


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## lesofprimus (Jan 4, 2005)

I love it when a new guy comes on, says something silly, we call em on it, and they explain it with smileys.... I dont use smileys..... Say what u mean.....


> Are u outta ur damn mind????
> First of all, it was intended for GrG...
> Secondly, if u think that was rude, ur in for a RUDE awakening pal..... U'll know it if I decide to be "rude" to u....
> Spend some time on a New York City Sidewalk, then ask me that same question....





> Wooaaa, ain´t that agressive?
> Come on Les, chill out!


WHere the hell was i agressive???? U asked me why I was being rude to u.. I answered ur question.... Jeez u damn foreigners get so touchy sometimes, like hurting someones feelings is a crime..... Lighten up.... 

Some of u that know me know that what I replied was a big joke...... New guys, learn the lesson....


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## plan_D (Jan 5, 2005)

As a drunken Plan_D? I'm never drunk, that is slander.


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## Nonskimmer (Jan 5, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> I love it when a new guy comes on, says something silly, we call em on it, and they explain it with smileys.... I dont use smileys..... Say what u mean.....



  What do you mean? I never use 'em. 

(kidding)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 5, 2005)




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## cheddar cheese (Jan 5, 2005)

GermansRGeniuses said:


> Or those two great times when you were on at the same time as a drunken plan_D...



Ah those were great times  I wonder what happened to the LEZI party he inadvertantly came up with


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## Udet (Jan 5, 2005)

LesofPrimus:

*smoochie*


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## plan_D (Jan 6, 2005)

You could just ask me CC what happened to the LEZI party. LEZI party...oh splendid this calls for a SEXY party. 8)


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 6, 2005)

What did happen to the LEZI party then?  Did it collapse? And why havent 'T' and 'K' reigned supreme yet?


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## plan_D (Jan 7, 2005)

For 2 reasons - T ran off and married X while K...well, she just sits there. All my plans RUINED!


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 7, 2005)

Good if you ask me, they were a threat to society and literature...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 7, 2005)

although our maths teacher would be a god...........


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## plan_D (Jan 7, 2005)

You'd be thinking differently CC, if T wasn't such a dirty slut!


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 7, 2005)

Ive heard about that, wasnt he having an affair with F at one stage?


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## plan_D (Jan 7, 2005)

I didn't hear about that, thank you. I'm going to put that dirty son of a bitch down!!!


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 8, 2005)




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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 8, 2005)

plan_D said:


> You could just ask me CC what happened to the LEZI party. LEZI party...oh splendid this calls for a SEXY party. 8)




With white linen suits, women, and top hats!


Make sure the host is a baby...


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## plan_D (Jan 10, 2005)

It doesn't have to be hosted by a baby. Unless you're not refering to a young child, just a BABE-Y.


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 10, 2005)

Or are we talking baby as in someone like the lanc, who cries all the time?


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 10, 2005)

i resent that..........


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 10, 2005)

You would...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 11, 2005)

well that's obvious............


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 11, 2005)

Not to me it aint...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 13, 2005)

well it should be.............


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## lesofprimus (Jan 13, 2005)

I thought it was......


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## plan_D (Jan 14, 2005)

Guh!?


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 14, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> I thought it was......



Obviously, who wouldnt...

Wait; I wouldnt...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 14, 2005)

exactily............


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 14, 2005)

You wouldnt know how to spell either would you...

"the treat of communism" indeed


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## GermansRGeniuses (Jan 14, 2005)

plan_D said:


> It doesn't have to be hosted by a baby. Unless you're not refering to a young child, just a BABE-Y.




Sure, a girl hosting would be fine too...


So long as she's smokin' hott...


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## Erich (Jan 14, 2005)

ok back on topic as it has taken a few turns....

Siegie Müller with an FW 190A-9/R2 on the Ost front. note the whites of the eyes a SturmJG 3 conception


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## cheddar cheese (Jan 15, 2005)

Nice shot 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jan 15, 2005)

hehe look at the guy on the left, he's so about to shoot the guy at the front because he slept with his wife...........


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## plan_D (Jan 15, 2005)

Of course she'd be smokin' hott, GrG. 

And you know the story behind that picture, lanc!?!


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## Erich (Jan 15, 2005)

actually they all including the fighter pilot in the front, wishes they could be home and out of this sick war


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## lesofprimus (Jan 15, 2005)

Damn Right......


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## FalkeEins (Apr 4, 2007)

..just to bring this thread up to date - yes, II.(Sturm)/JG 300 went to the Oder front during February 45 - there's a chapter devoted to Sturm exploits in the East in Vol II of the JG 300 history - which was published in French in December 2005 ...not many aircraft encountered in the air - it was mostly ground strafing...

_"...One last time our aircraft shuddered as our guns hammered out their salvos. With a deft touch on the rudder bar I was able for a brief moment to ease a pathetic human silhouette into my sight. A short burst and then I pulled up sharply to avoid a tree..." _

Karl Rusack, 5.(Sturm)/JG300


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