# US fighter production. Feasibility to scale up?



## Admiral Beez (Mar 5, 2022)

There are three fighters produced in the USA…

Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II A/B/C 
Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon
Boeing Douglas F-15E Strike Eagle
Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet

Presumably with the world going to sh#t the Europeans, Canadians and others will want to update their air forces. But this isn’t WW2 where car plants can swap over to combat aircraft. What opportunities are there to scale up fighter production?

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 5, 2022)

The F-15E is not being produced.

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## cvairwerks (Mar 5, 2022)

About the only way you could ramp up current production is to shut down certain civil production lines and transfer all that capability to military production. Right now, the biggest hangup would be engine production. Both Pratt and GE are 18-24 months out on engine delivery or longer. Certain electronic boxes are in the same boat, being 18+ months out for delivery. If one were to allow direct commercial substitution for certain items, you would not really reduce span times. There are COTS items that have been flown without going thru the full qualifying process, but they are few and far between and were very niche items.

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## EwenS (Mar 5, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> The F-15E is not being produced.


No. But the F-15EX Eagle II is.


https://sgp.fas.org/crs/weapons/R46801.pdf


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 5, 2022)

EwenS said:


> No. But the F-15EX Eagle II is.
> 
> 
> https://sgp.fas.org/crs/weapons/R46801.pdf



Yes, I know. My office is right above the assembly line. Hence why I said the E Strike Eagle is not.

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## Admiral Beez (Mar 5, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Yes, I know. My office is right above the assembly line.


How can production be ramped up? Is that a thing nowadays?


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## Admiral Beez (Mar 5, 2022)

cvairwerks said:


> Right now, the biggest hangup would be engine production.


Is the commercial shortage of semiconductors an issue?

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 5, 2022)

Admiral Beez said:


> How can production be ramped up? Is that a thing nowadays?



I do not work production or the F-15 program, and cannot answer that.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 5, 2022)

Admiral Beez said:


> How can production be ramped up? Is that a thing nowadays?


With the complexity of airframe production and long lead times on certain components, in the short term, no. Now, a production line can be accelerated if "the customer" is willing to give up certain things (paint, interior furnishings, some conversion coatings, some avionics, etc.) that would make the aircraft minimally combat ready. At the end of the day do you want to reduce quality to get the aircraft in the field?


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## ThomasP (Mar 5, 2022)

re "Is the commercial shortage of semiconductors an issue?"

Not yet. The US for example has a strategic stock of the rare earths needed for such electronics. This is not as big a deal as it might seem - the entire world only refines/uses about 130 tons of Germanium each year - so a stock of a few tons is more than enough to supply the military needs for several years. Currently the US supplies all (I think) of its own Germanium.

But if China and/or Russia were to stop supplying Germanium to the rest of the world, there could be problems. Germanium is a fairly plentiful material, with the richer ores found in the areas of major Zinc deposits, but it requires significant processing - and even more processing if the material is to be refined from other sources. Recycling of Germanium has become a reasonable source also.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 6, 2022)

Shasta County (northern California) has rich copper- zinc deposits, which has pockets of Germanium (which is typically found near Zinc) but environmental moratoriums prevent any exploitation of those resources.

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## cvairwerks (Mar 6, 2022)

It's not the raw stock supplies that are causing the problem with chip production, but rather the operation to grow the silicon logs to be sliced into wafers, for the base of the chips. There has been so much consolidation in chip production, that when the largest wafer production facility burned, it crippled production for almost all chip manufacturing. The log production capabilities that are still operating, are simply not able to keep up with needs. Production of the log growth equipment is very limited and is a long lead item. Intel is building a 20 billion dollar log and chip production facility in Ohio, but it won't come online until very late 2023 or early 2024 as of right now.

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## Admiral Beez (Mar 6, 2022)

cvairwerks said:


> It's not the raw stock supplies that are causing the problem with chip production, but rather the operation to grow the silicon logs to be sliced into wafers, for the base of the chips. There has been so much consolidation in chip production, that when the largest wafer production facility burned, it crippled production for almost all chip manufacturing. The log production capabilities that are still operating, are simply not able to keep up with needs. Production of the log growth equipment is very limited and is a long lead item. Intel is building a 20 billion dollar log and chip production facility in Ohio, but it won't come online until very late 2023 or early 2024 as of right now.


I saw that in the news. I imagine Intel has received a mountain of cash to expedite that. 2023 is right around the corner still.

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## DogMan (Mar 7, 2022)

It's also getting qualified suppliers to build parts and subassemblies which requires lead-time and planning. Not to mention the shortage of qualified assembly folks and technicians, to a achieve the production of the 80s would take at least 2-3 years. Also, forgot to mention space or building capacity and administrative support buildings, most of our manufacturing from the 80s has shutdown and those spaces have been repurposed as coffee houses, restaurants and housing. Add to that the tree-hugging fools who demand environmental controls and lack of domestic energy production will add years to any type of resuscitation, unless congressional/presidential action is enacted to streamline that process during "wartime" conditions.

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## Greg Boeser (Mar 7, 2022)

Not going to happen with an administration wedded to the Green New Deal. Industrial production - bad. Coffe shops and art galleries - good.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 7, 2022)

Sigh…

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## Greg Boeser (Mar 7, 2022)

Probably going to get yellow carded for that last post, but the level of regulatory BS is getting out of hand. Our company was recently asked by a customer to verify that we were not engaging in slave labor, and ensuring that our suppliers weren't either.

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## SaparotRob (Mar 7, 2022)

I got the impression that you were the slave labor.


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## Greg Boeser (Mar 7, 2022)

I cannot complain about my compensation package.


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## SaparotRob (Mar 7, 2022)

For he would be severely beaten if he did.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 7, 2022)

Greg Boeser said:


> Probably going to get yellow carded for that last post, but the level of regulatory BS is getting out of hand. Our company was recently asked by a customer to verify that we were not engaging in slave labor, and ensuring that our suppliers weren't either.



No, just not worth wasting my time responding with anything but a sigh.

I’m pretty sure the politics experiment is not going to survive though…

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## Thumpalumpacus (Mar 7, 2022)

Lordy, people. We all know the rules.

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## SaparotRob (Mar 7, 2022)

We've been pretty good so far. Times are weird and we may have skidded close to the guard rail but all in all, I haven't seen the the bile evident elsewhere. There are few places for civil discourse.


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## The Basket (Mar 7, 2022)

I think they still have Phantoms at the boneyard.

So there's an option.


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## Denniss (Mar 7, 2022)

I believe several countries have rules or laws that require a declaration that nothing in a product is made by slave labor. Especially if its a government contract.


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## Greg Boeser (Mar 7, 2022)

Exactly. A lot of ridiculous regulatory micro-management. Drives up costs due to the extra effort expended in documenting compliance, for no real benefit.


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 7, 2022)

The Basket said:


> I think they still have Phantoms at the boneyard.
> 
> So there's an option.


Very few...

Many of them have been scrapped or used for drone operations. Even though I love the F-4, it would take months if not years to spool up the aircraft, train flight and maintenance crews and modify the aircraft so they can be a viable weapons system.


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## Thumpalumpacus (Mar 7, 2022)

lol, we're resurrecting the Phantom? Pray God they're not the same planes operated by the 301st at the turn of the 90s.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 7, 2022)

I get it that the F-4 has a large fan base, I happen to be one, too.

But time has marched on and the Phantom's abilities have been eclipsed by next generation types.

Bringing the F-4 back into action would be like dusting off Richard Petty's '69 Dodge Charger and having it try to compete against today's NASCAR hardware.

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## wuzak (Mar 7, 2022)

Regarding the OP, isn't F-35 production still ramping up?


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 7, 2022)

wuzak said:


> Regarding the OP, isn't F-35 production still ramping up?


Ramping up??

Over 750 built

3 production lines

From January:









Lockheed Martin beats its F-35 delivery goal for 2021


Lockheed Martin delivered a total of 142 F-35 fighter jets to the United States and its allies, three more than originally planned, the world's largest defense contractor said on Monday.




www.reuters.com

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## cvairwerks (Mar 8, 2022)

For a long time we used to deliver 30 F-16’s a month....

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## wuzak (Mar 8, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Ramping up??
> 
> Over 750 built
> 
> ...



Ramping up, as in still increasing?


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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 8, 2022)

wuzak said:


> Ramping up, as in still increasing?


LMCO will increase production to 156 aircraft a year starting in 2023. This has nothing to do with the current Ukraine crisis. According to their press releases we should see between 151 - 153 units delivered this year.

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## wuzak (Mar 8, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> LMCO will increase production to 156 aircraft a year starting in 2023. This has nothing to do with the current Ukraine crisis. According to their press releases we should see between 151 - 153 units delivered this year.



So near planned production levels now.

I didn't think it had anything to do with Ukraine, just that it was following the planned program.


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## KeithA0000 (Mar 8, 2022)

As a Canadian, I agree. We have a government that is shy about military spending, which slows things quite a bit. Personally, I'd like to see us buy new F-15s, but there's a serious issue with that, as Boeing has damaged the Canadian indigenous aircraft industry, so buying from them is a REALLY tough call. That pretty much leaves the F-35 or some lesser European airplane. Tough decision for us up here. Honestly, I don't know what the best path is...

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 8, 2022)

KeithA0000 said:


> As a Canadian, I agree. We have a government that is shy about military spending, which slows things quite a bit. Personally, I'd like to see us buy new F-15s, but there's a serious issue with that, as Boeing has damaged the Canadian indigenous aircraft industry, so buying from them is a REALLY tough call. That pretty much leaves the F-35 or some lesser European airplane. Tough decision for us up here. Honestly, I don't know what the best path is...



How did we destroy the indigenous aircraft industry?


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## GTX (Mar 8, 2022)

Greg Boeser said:


> Probably going to get yellow carded for that last post, but the level of regulatory BS is getting out of hand. Our company was recently asked by a customer to verify that we were not engaging in slave labor, and ensuring that our suppliers weren't either.


Modern Anti-Slavery Laws are something that have been rolled out across most of the key players in the Western industry. Should be a nothing thing to respond to.


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## GTX (Mar 8, 2022)

wuzak said:


> So near planned production levels now.
> 
> I didn't think it had anything to do with Ukraine, just that it was following the planned program.


Yep, normal planning. In fact, I have production predictions from years ago showing just that for the F-35.


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## GTX (Mar 8, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Ramping up??
> 
> Over 750 built
> 
> ...


Over 770 now: Fast Facts

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## SaparotRob (Mar 8, 2022)

Now that things have changed a bit, it seems the F-35 is catching less flak. Pun intended.

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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 8, 2022)

GTX said:


> Over 770 now: Fast Facts


Thanks for the correction!

Pretty good for an aircraft that was supposed to be an utter failure!

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## GTX (Mar 8, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Thanks for the correction!
> 
> Pretty good for an aircraft that was supposed to be an utter failure!


Not a problem. Some still seem to claim it is in a 'death spiral' and to be cancelled any day...

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## GrauGeist (Mar 8, 2022)

GTX said:


> Not a problem. Some still seem to claim it is in a 'death spiral' and to be cancelled any day...


The talking heads were convinced that the F-16 was a waste of money, plagued by cost over-runs, too complicated to be of any use in combat situations, doomed to failure, no other nations would be interested in buying it, etc.

You can literally go back to all those articles from the 70's and 80's and replace the word "F-16" with the word "F-35" and you'd never know the difference...

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## BobB (Mar 8, 2022)

KeithA0000 said:


> As a Canadian, I agree. We have a government that is shy about military spending, which slows things quite a bit. Personally, I'd like to see us buy new F-15s, but there's a serious issue with that, as Boeing has damaged the Canadian indigenous aircraft industry, so buying from them is a REALLY tough call. That pretty much leaves the F-35 or some lesser European airplane. Tough decision for us up here. Honestly, I don't know what the best path is...


I thought Diefenbacker torpedoed Canada's indigenous aircraft industry.

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## ThomasP (Mar 9, 2022)

re Boeing recent damaging of Canada's indigenous aircraft industry.

Short story is Boeing (rightly or wrongly) used the mini-trade war during the Trump administration to screw up sales of Canadian built aircraft to the US market, by arguing for penalties against Bombadier, resulting in a 300% tariff. There is was a bit more involved, see:

"U.S. backs 300 percent in duties on Bombardier after Boeing complaint"


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 9, 2022)

ThomasP said:


> re Boeing recent damaging of Canada's indigenous aircraft industry.
> 
> Short story is Boeing (rightly or wrongly) used the mini-trade war during the Trump administration to screw up sales of Canadian built aircraft to the US market, by arguing for penalties against Bombadier, resulting in a 300% tariff. There is was a bit more involved, see:
> 
> "U.S. backs 300 percent in duties on Bombardier after Boeing complaint"



Thats not destroying the indigenous market. Bombardiers decision to get in bed with Airbus on the CJ program did more to harm that. In the end Airbus bought the CJ outright (Bombardier had to sell to prevent going bankrupt), renaming it the A220, and Bombardier is out of the commercial airline market. 

The Canadian aircraft industry was sabotaged by politics (both foreign and domestic) and poor decisions more than anything.

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## ThomasP (Mar 9, 2022)

Just pointing out what (I think) KeithA0000 alluded to in his post#36 up-thread.

Also, he said ". . . Boeing has damaged . . .", not 'has destroyed'.

Also, I did say ". . . (rightly or wrongly) . . ." and "There is was a bit more involved . . ."


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 9, 2022)

ThomasP said:


> Just pointing out what (I think) KeithA0000 alluded to in his post#36 up-thread.
> 
> Also, he said ". . . Boeing has damaged . . .", not 'has destroyed'.
> 
> Also, I did say ". . . (rightly or wrongly) . . ." and "There is was a bit more involve . . ."



Damage - Destroy

Tomato - Tomato

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## buffnut453 (Mar 9, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Damage - Destroy
> 
> Tomato - Tomatoe



Not a really good analogy because it's "Tomato - Tomato"....it's just that one country calls it a "tomayto" while another calls it a "tomahto".


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 9, 2022)

buffnut453 said:


> Not a really good analogy because it's "Tomato - Tomato"....it's just that one country calls it a "tomayto" while another calls it a "tomahto".



Happy you ninny?

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## SaparotRob (Mar 9, 2022)

Yeah but the country that says it wrong also drives on the wrong side of the road.

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## buffnut453 (Mar 9, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Happy you ninny?



Ecstatic, brother. Can't recall the last time anyone called me a ninny, though.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 9, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> Yeah but the country that says it wrong also drives on the wrong side of the road.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 9, 2022)

buffnut453 said:


> Ecstatic, brother. Can't recall the last time anyone called me a ninny, though.



I used my best English accent and stuck my pinky out while drinking my coffee while saying it too.

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## buffnut453 (Mar 9, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> Yeah but the country that says it wrong also drives on the wrong side of the road.



Which country is wrong? America copied the French in driving on the right, whereas the Brits drive on the left because, back in days of yore, driving on the left meant you could defend yourself with your sword hand.

So please tell me who's right? 

(And the correct answer is the Brits are right, if for no other reason that ANYTHING French is INHERENTLY WRONG....except baguettes and brie)

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## SaparotRob (Mar 9, 2022)

I prefer to remain vague.


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## buffnut453 (Mar 9, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I used my best English accent and stuck my pinky out while drinking my coffee while saying it too.



Glad I wasn't there to hear it. Most Americans attempting to do an English accent are the equivalent of nails on a chalkboard. Would like to see a pic of you drinking coffee with your pinky out, though...I need a laugh!

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 9, 2022)

buffnut453 said:


> Glad I wasn't there to hear it. Most Americans attempting to do an English accent are the equivalent of nails on a chalkboard. Would like to see a pic of you drinking coffee with your pinky out, though...I need a laugh!



As opposed to how British people sound to everyone…


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## special ed (Mar 9, 2022)

buffnut453 said:


> Which country is wrong? America copied the French in driving on the right, whereas the Brits drive on the left because, back in days of yore, driving on the left meant you could defend yourself with your sword hand.
> 
> So please tell me who's right?
> 
> (And the correct answer is the Brits are right, if for no other reason that ANYTHING French is INHERENTLY WRONG....except baguettes and brie)


back in the days of yore, what?


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## The Basket (Mar 9, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> Yeah but the country that says it wrong also drives on the wrong side of the road.


We English were driving on roads long before we invented your country.

Gotta love them Romans.

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## special ed (Mar 9, 2022)

Our country was invented long before the Romans by the native people here we called Indians.

And NOW, Back to the topic.

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## SaparotRob (Mar 9, 2022)

And they were driving their Pontiacs on the right.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 9, 2022)

The Basket said:


> We English were driving on roads long before we invented your country.
> 
> Gotta love them Romans.



You did not invent our country. The people who got sick and tired of your country and then whooped your ass invented our country. So there! Take that biscuit and pie and…

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 9, 2022)

special ed said:


> And NOW, Back to the topic.



Yes, thank you. Will the British please stop making a mockery of themselves so we can get on with the topic?

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## SaparotRob (Mar 9, 2022)

Okay, what's higher'n bacon?


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## special ed (Mar 9, 2022)

Pontiac was a great Chief.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 9, 2022)

Disclaimer: No British or Animals were harmed in this discussion. We actually love our former caretakers across the pond.

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## The Basket (Mar 10, 2022)

The issue is this.
America was a British colony with British people.
They spoke English and had British laws and religion and British customs.
So they were British colonial settlers living in a British colony.

So even after the break, they were still fundamental British with British laws and custom and religion and the constitution was written in the English language!

So British people did invent America based on British laws, British customs and British religion using the English language.

So how is that not British?

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## Greg Boeser (Mar 10, 2022)

We don't have a Queen.


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## The Basket (Mar 10, 2022)

Greg Boeser said:


> We don't have a Queen.


But you speak English.


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## Greg Boeser (Mar 10, 2022)

But my ancestors spoke German and Czech. And I live in an area of the continent that was claimed by France.

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## The Basket (Mar 10, 2022)

I am talking about the 1770s.

Not today.


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## Snautzer01 (Mar 10, 2022)



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## special ed (Mar 10, 2022)

The Dutch were here. New Amsterdam became New York.

We still have Queens.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 10, 2022)

I live in the part of North America that once belonged to the Empire of Spain, established in the late 1600's...

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## The Basket (Mar 10, 2022)

New Amsterdam was captured by my English ancestors.

Spain did hold some of the modern USA. How did that work out for them?

What language is the American constitution written in?

Why not Japanese? Or Spanish? Or French? If you answer that question then you will find out why.


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## Old Wizard (Mar 10, 2022)

Some British regional accents almost need translation.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 10, 2022)

Ok everyone, back on topic.

Especially since some here seem to be taking this discussion way too seriously.

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## elbmc1969 (Mar 14, 2022)

Old Wizard said:


> Some British regional accents almost need translation.


What do you mean "almost"? I was watching an old BBC news/interview/documentary piece where they were talking to Yorkshire farmers. It was subtitled for the audience *in the U.K.*

Of course, on my first day in Boston I stood staring stupidly at the woman behind a lunch counter as she repeatedly asked me the same question in growing frustration, until the guy behind me leaned over and translated ...

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## special ed (Mar 14, 2022)

When I worked in a hardware store a young man came in and asked if I had any "caaabd caaatns". After my third time not understanding, he said "pasteboard boxes."

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## buffnut453 (Mar 14, 2022)

special ed said:


> When I worked in a hardware store a young man came in and asked if I had any "caaabd caaatns". After my third time not understanding, he said "pasteboard boxes."



In Boston, MA, perchance?


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## special ed (Mar 14, 2022)

I was in New Orleans and he was most likely a Tulane U. student.


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## buffnut453 (Mar 14, 2022)

It sounded like fluent Bostonese in my head...which is a scary place.

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## special ed (Mar 14, 2022)

Tulane attracted many wealthy Boston students.


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## GrauGeist (Mar 14, 2022)

Years ago, a Secret Service vehicle came through the shop and the agent who came to pick it up was aparently from Bastun (Boston), took a few tries to figure out the word Khakis meant Car Keys...

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## Admiral Beez (Mar 14, 2022)

Greg Boeser said:


> We don't have a Queen.


Jenner? Edit, America’s Queen is Oprah.









Oprah Winfrey is hailed 'Queen of America' after history of bombshell interviews


Americans have for more than 30 years revered Oprah Winfrey as their Queen as a result of her glittering journalism career




www.mirror.co.uk

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## elbmc1969 (Mar 14, 2022)

Admiral Beez said:


> Jenner?


Aaaaand, I've just made Admiral Beez the first person on my ignore list. Bigot.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 14, 2022)

Alright everyone relax.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Mar 14, 2022)

My mom's late hubby was a Bostonian. It took me a couple of years to learn the _translate-Bahston-to-English_ algorithm.


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## Admiral Beez (Mar 15, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Alright everyone relax.


Sorry, that was my fault. No transphobia intended, I was originally going to suggest Oprah as America’s Queen. As is, Jenner has referred to herself as royalty, and her daughter calls her a Queen. But in my attempt at levity I’ve taken us *way*…. off topic. I shall shush now.

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## junkman3353 (Mar 19, 2022)

So, how long WOULD it take to get the Tesla plant to produce F-35's? Or build a new factory from the ground up. I'm assuming that with a national emergency environmental hangups would be put on hold. Even in the 1940s we were talking about over a year to get factories fully converted to war production.


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## cvairwerks (Mar 19, 2022)

junkman3353 said:


> So, how long WOULD it take to get the Tesla plant to produce F-35's? Or build a new factory from the ground up. I'm assuming that with a national emergency environmental hangups would be put on hold. Even in the 1940s we were talking about over a year to get factories fully converted to war production.


Realistically, about 36-48 months to bring a new facility online from the ground up. Realize that we use about 5 million square feet of building space currently, just for production and production support. Pratt is somewhere around 26-30 months from date of order to delivery on engines. It would take about 18-36 months for delivery on the specialized robotic tooling, set up and calibration. You also have to find, hire and train hundreds of employees to do the actual work.

Consider this...the F-16 line was moved from Fort Worth to Greenville, SC, and it took almost 3 years to get that line completely up and running. As areas in the FW operation completed the last scheduled parts, they were closed out and moved to the new facility and set up. Greenville just mated their first fuselage.

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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 19, 2022)

junkman3353 said:


> So, how long WOULD it take to get the Tesla plant to produce F-35's? Or build a new factory from the ground up. I'm assuming that with a national emergency environmental hangups would be put on hold. Even in the 1940s we were talking about over a year to get factories fully converted to war production.


Additionally, during the 1940s, business did not have to deal with a lot of OSHA and environmental requirements that have to be in place in a factory. You’re also looking at aircraft that are probably 100 times more complicated than what was being produced during World War II.

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## cvairwerks (Mar 19, 2022)

Probably the most recent video of the production operation in the last couple of years, that's public. Some video out where I work, and a few guys that I know show up in the background.

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## special ed (Mar 19, 2022)

Question: In the video, the cockpit canopy has a warning not to cut with in 3 inches of frame. If not classified, why?
Also at appx 2:30 of the video that appears to be the original XB-24.


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## cvairwerks (Mar 19, 2022)

Here's an old MB short that will give you an idea why the no cut warning....



It's the XB and that film was shot at San Diego, probably somewhere around early 1940.

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## SaparotRob (Mar 19, 2022)

I've wondered about that no cut warning myself.


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## Thumpalumpacus (Mar 19, 2022)

No-cut/no-step warnings are painted over sensitive sections. This is not new or unusual. It only means that there's something underneath you don't want to break. Ignore it at your own risk.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Mar 19, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> I've wondered about that no cut warning myself.



As a crash firefighter, I was trained that generally "no cut" meant that cutting would sever a hydraulic line, which at 3-5,000 psi could cut a man in half. There were also electrical considerations involved; cutting through a live wire could have an unhappy ending too.

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## cvairwerks (Mar 20, 2022)

In this case and a few other aircraft, it's due to stuff that goes BOOM......


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## J_P_C (Mar 20, 2022)

cvairwerks said:


> Realistically, about 36-48 months to bring a new facility online from the ground up. Realize that we use about 5 million square feet of building space currently, just for production and production support. Pratt is somewhere around 26-30 months from date of order to delivery on engines. It would take about 18-36 months for delivery on the specialized robotic tooling, set up and calibration. You also have to find, hire and train hundreds of employees to do the actual work.
> 
> Consider this...the F-16 line was moved from Fort Worth to Greenville, SC, and it took almost 3 years to get that line completely up and running. As areas in the FW operation completed the last scheduled parts, they were closed out and moved to the new facility and set up. Greenville just mated their first fuselage.


Is Greenville line really running???? What i've heard customers have been informed that F16 delivery will be delayed by further 24 months - at least... Ive observed such "successful" relocations couple times during my career. GE moving nacelle production to Alabama - well i don't think they have to build even one, Smiths moving aerostructure components production to China - number rejected parts during first 3 years equals 100%, later it was just 60-75% and this is just two most notable examples. I think most of "industry leaders" underestimate human factor in aerospace industry. Most of airplanes is build manually with very little automation involved and training machinists or assembly workers to have acceptable quality level taking 2-3 years at least. Not mentioning how difficult is to keep your trained workforce.

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## cvairwerks (Mar 20, 2022)

From what I understand, the first airframe is in mate and should be moving to final assembly fairly soon. First flight is scheduled before the end of this year. The first V models were not supposed to be delivered before late 2023 originally anyway. 

The big delay is due to a single supplier and has slowed things quite a bit. All F-16 new production was slowed by this problem.

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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 20, 2022)

J_P_C said:


> Is Greenville line really running???? What i've heard customers have been informed that F16 delivery will be delayed by further 24 months - at least... Ive observed such "successful" relocations couple times during my career. GE moving nacelle production to Alabama - well i don't think they have to build even one, Smiths moving aerostructure components production to China - number rejected parts during first 3 years equals 100%, later it was just 60-75% and this is just two most notable examples. I think most of "industry leaders" underestimate human factor in aerospace industry. Most of airplanes is build manually with very little automation involved and training machinists or assembly workers to have acceptable quality level taking 2-3 years at least. Not mentioning how difficult is to keep your trained workforce.


Excellent points! Additionally, there is a shortage of aircraft workers in many parts of the US, and those who have A&P Licenses are quickly snatched up to companies who are willing to pay top dollar for their services. Being retired, it’s kind of frustrating watching this because there was a time in my career I was hanging on by my fingertips.

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## special ed (Mar 20, 2022)

Thanks for the info. I thought the XB-24 in the video was the original prototype because of all the little windows.

Re: post 95


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## special ed (Mar 20, 2022)

As a bit of worker info, this is from memory, while microfilming records for a nuclear plant construction in southern Mississippi. Apparently the big bosses up north were complaining about the slow pace. The on site boss said there was absolutely no problem with the employees' work and skill level. The problem was with the various hunting seasons. The absenteeism was what was the cause the delay. The local saying was, "If there's a season, there's a reason." From squirrel to deer, primitive(bow and arrow) , black powder, high power, to duck season, etc. It has to do with the mild climate.

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## Snautzer01 (Mar 21, 2022)

special ed said:


> As a bit of worker info, this is from memory, while microfilming records for a nuclear plant construction in southern Mississippi. Apparently the big bosses up north were complaining about the slow pace. The on site boss said there was absolutely no problem with the employees' work and skill level. The problem was with the various hunting seasons. The absenteeism was what was the cause the delay. The local saying was, "If there's a season, there's a reason." From squirrel to deer, primitive(bow and arrow) , black powder, high power, to duck season, etc. It has to do with the mild climate.


Mississippi employee

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## BobB (Mar 21, 2022)

cvairwerks said:


> Realistically, about 36-48 months to bring a new facility online from the ground up. Realize that we use about 5 million square feet of building space currently, just for production and production support. Pratt is somewhere around 26-30 months from date of order to delivery on engines. It would take about 18-36 months for delivery on the specialized robotic tooling, set up and calibration. You also have to find, hire and train hundreds of employees to do the actual work.
> 
> Consider this...the F-16 line was moved from Fort Worth to Greenville, SC, and it took almost 3 years to get that line completely up and running. As areas in the FW operation completed the last scheduled parts, they were closed out and moved to the new facility and set up. Greenville just mated their first fuselage.


You obviously aren't qualified to be in management. People are interchangeable so you just need to determine the required headcount, then hire whoever is standing out on the street. Yes, there are people who really believe that. Good first level supervision is really important and it can be hard to get qualified people for that who are willing to take abuse from their management.


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## BobB (Mar 21, 2022)

special ed said:


> As a bit of worker info, this is from memory, while microfilming records for a nuclear plant construction in southern Mississippi. Apparently the big bosses up north were complaining about the slow pace. The on site boss said there was absolutely no problem with the employees' work and skill level. The problem was with the various hunting seasons. The absenteeism was what was the cause the delay. The local saying was, "If there's a season, there's a reason." From squirrel to deer, primitive(bow and arrow) , black powder, high power, to duck season, etc. It has to do with the mild climate.


Lockheed opened a feeder plant in Clarksburg, West Virginia in the 1960's. An English engineer who was sent there said that they couldn't believe that he wasn't going deer hunting. People offered to loan him a rifle thinking that he must have left his at home. He also said that they couldn't believe how easy the work was compared to coal mining. After they got some experience, they were beating the standard production hours for assemblies so new standards were set and then they beat them too.

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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 21, 2022)

BobB said:


> You obviously aren't qualified to be in management. People are interchangeable so you just need to determine the required headcount, then hire whoever is standing out on the street. Yes, there are people who really believe that. Good first level supervision is really important and it can be hard to get qualified people for that who are willing to take abuse from their management.


Have you ever worked in an aircraft production facility or on an actual aircraft production line? And please do not criticize or try to put someone down because of their post, especially if you don’t know their background. I’ll let you answer my question though, but I will tell you for starters that you are wrong about people “being interchangeable“ with regards to working at an aircraft manufacturer. It’s quite evident you know little about the skill and pay structure and unions that exist within these companies. So please, enlighten us with your aircraft manufacturing management experience.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 21, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Have you ever worked in an aircraft production facility or on an actual aircraft production line? And please do not criticize or try to put someone down because of their post, especially if you don’t know their background. I’ll let you answer my question though, but I will tell you for starters that you are wrong about people “being interchangeable“ with regards to working at an aircraft manufacturer. It’s quite evident you know little about the skill and pay structure and unions that exist within these companies. So please, enlighten us with your aircraft manufacturing management experience.



As someone who works just upstairs from an aircraft assembly line I’m waiting this answer as well.

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## Greg Boeser (Mar 21, 2022)

I believe the line 


> Yes, there are people who really believe that.


gives away the game.
He was being sassy.

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## cvairwerks (Mar 21, 2022)

I assumed that Bob was being facetious about it.

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## buffnut453 (Mar 21, 2022)

This may be too obscure for many on the forum, but back in the 1980s there was a British comedy sketch show called "Not the Nine o'Clock News." It launched the career or Rowan Atkinson and many other British comedians, including Mel Smith who had a brief role in "The Princess Bride."

One famous Not the Nine o'Clock News skit was a dig against British Leyland, the nationalized car manufacturer that was infamous for creating ugly, unreliable vehicles. At the time, some German and Japanese cars were advertised as being built by new-fangled robots, while BL's unionized workforce resisted such efficiencies...hence the sketch:



Somehow it seemed appropriate....

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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 21, 2022)

”feeder plant” Never heard that one. When I worked at Lockheed, I remember the Clarksburg WV plant manufacturing C-130 subassemblies and wire harnesses. The facility was considered a corporation owned subcontractor.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 21, 2022)

Greg Boeser said:


> I believe the line
> 
> gives away the game.
> He was being sassy.





cvairwerks said:


> I assumed that Bob was being facetious about it.



Went right over my head, wooosh…


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## GrauGeist (Mar 21, 2022)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Went right over my head, wooosh…


Dunno why, but that just reminded me of when I was a kid and if you weren't paying attention or something went over your head, the guys (WWII airmen vets) would say:
"Come in B-19, you're overshooting the field!"

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## EwenS (Mar 22, 2022)

buffnut453 said:


> This may be too obscure for many on the forum, but back in the 1980s there was a British comedy sketch show called "Not the Nine o'Clock News." It launched the career or Rowan Atkinson and many other British comedians, including Mel Smith who had a brief role in "The Princess Bride."
> 
> One famous Not the Nine o'Clock News skit was a dig against British Leyland, the nationalized car manufacturer that was infamous for creating ugly, unreliable vehicles. At the time, some German and Japanese cars were advertised as being built by new-fangled robots, while BL's unionized workforce resisted such efficiencies...hence the sketch:
> 
> ...



It was actually a skit on the 1978 TV advert for the then new Fiat Strada which used the strapline “handbuilt by robots”. It was called the Ritmo in some markets. Built between 1978 and 1988.

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## buffnut453 (Mar 22, 2022)

EwenS said:


> It was actually a skit on the 1978 TV advert for the then new Fiat Strada which used the strapline “handbuilt by robots”. It was called the Ritmo in some markets. Built between 1978 and 1988.




Thanks Ewen. I'd completely forgotten that advert....but, then, I was only 9 when it came out and I didn't spend much time indoors watching TV.


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## J_P_C (Mar 22, 2022)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Additionally, during the 1940s, business did not have to deal with a lot of OSHA and environmental requirements that have to be in place in a factory. You’re also looking at aircraft that are probably 100 times more complicated than what was being produced during World War II.


i think you are slightly wrong - aerostructures are probably 300 times more complex, powerplant is 600 times more complex, avionics and weapon system are light years ahead in a term of complexity, and then... software part begeens

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## SaparotRob (Mar 22, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> Dunno why, but that just reminded me of when I was a kid and if you weren't paying attention or something went over your head, the guys (WWII airmen vets) would say:
> "Come in B-19, you're overshooting the field!"


We used to mimic a toy commercial add as well. "Voice control Kennedy Airport. The tower speaks and tells ya' what to do". Somebody in the group must have had a USAAF dad 'cause we used the B-19 line too.


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## GrauGeist (Mar 22, 2022)

SaparotRob said:


> Somebody in the group must have had a USAAF dad 'cause we used the B-19 line too.


All the guys were WWII vets.
One was even a radar operator aboard Enola Gay.

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## BobB (Mar 22, 2022)

Greg Boeser said:


> I believe the line
> 
> gives away the game.
> He was being sassy.


You win the prize for reading comprehension. I'm cynical enough that even without the last two sentences, I'd catch the drift.


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