# The truth is stranger than fiction: WW2 facts that you would call BS if seen on a movie...



## JAG88 (Mar 22, 2020)

It is late and I am bored, I will begin, feel free to post you own...

- Aggressively anti-communist German leader writes book in which he states his hatred for communism and declares his intention to colonize and, at the very least, displace if not get rid of the population of the nearby communist country... once he assumes power, he signs a non-aggression treaty with said neighbor and proceed to amicably divide eastern Europe like a cake among themselves.

All the hallmarks of an absurd what if... save for the fact that it happened.

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## Bernhart (Mar 22, 2020)

How about a British soldier going to battle with a bow and arrow and sword.

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## FLYBOYJ (Mar 22, 2020)

How about a 21 year old fighter pilot who loop-the-loop the Golden Gate bridge and who also had a flight instructor who became a US Senator and presidential candidate.

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## michael rauls (Mar 22, 2020)

The Polish army charging tanks on horseback. I've read this for years but also a few that claim it never really happened. If it did you've got to admire that kind of courage if nothing else.

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## RCAFson (Mar 23, 2020)

JAG88 said:


> It is late and I am bored, I will begin, feel free to post you own...
> 
> - Aggressively anti-communist German leader writes book in which he states his hatred for communism and declares his intention to colonize and, at the very least, displace if not get rid of the population of the nearby communist country... once he assumes power, he signs a non-aggression treaty with said neighbor and proceed to amicably divide eastern Europe like a cake among themselves.
> 
> All the hallmarks of an absurd what if... save for the fact that it happened.



Except for the part where he then proceeds to invade the communist state ~21 months later.

The really bizarre part is that the state that the Germans first invade, in Sept 1939, steadfastly refused to sign an alliance with the communist state to provide for a common response to a German invasion.


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## JAG88 (Mar 23, 2020)

RCAFson said:


> Except for the part where he then proceeds to invade the communist state ~21 months later.
> 
> The really bizarre part is that the state that the Germans first invade, in Sept 1939, steadfastly refused to sign an alliance with the communist state to provide for a common response to a German invasion.



A bit more complicated than that actually, Poland and the USSR fought a war immediately after WW2, Poland won and humiliated the USSR by getting a nice slice of Belarus as spoils ensuring Soviet enmity... so the USSR was actually by FAR the biggest threat to them and, in that context, the crazy part would have been not allying with Germany...

...yeah, I know.

They were in a difficult position, one that didnt left margin for error, hard to see Poland coming out somehow unscathed.

Edit: Corrected, WW1.


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## RCAFson (Mar 23, 2020)

JAG88 said:


> A bit more complicated than that actually, Poland and the USSR fought a war immediately after WW2, Poland won and humiliated the USSR by getting a nice slice of Belarus as spoils ensuring Soviet enmity... so the USSR was actually by FAR the biggest threat to them and, in that context, the crazy part would have been not allying with Germany...
> 
> ...yeah, I know.
> 
> They were in a difficult position, one that didnt left margin for error, hard to see Poland coming out somehow unscathed.



Yes, tough decisions, but Polish diplomacy managed to ensure that they had no immediate allies... Of course, as it turned out Poland did lose Belarus, but was compensated by getting a big slice of eastern Germany. There was a Franco-Soviet alliance and the failure by the UK, France and Poland to conclude a more concrete alliance with the USSR precipitated the Nazi-Soviet Pact.

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## wuzak (Mar 23, 2020)

JAG88 said:


> A bit more complicated than that actually, Poland and the USSR fought a war immediately after *WW2*, Poland won and humiliated the USSR



WW1?

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## wuzak (Mar 23, 2020)

Bernhart said:


> How about a British soldier going to battle with a bow and arrow and sword.



And bagpipes.

He and a corporal also captured 42 German soldiers by themselves, and then marched them back to Allied lines in the Italy campaign.

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## Able One (Mar 23, 2020)

Any Panther or Tiger driving more than 150 km without requiring a repair

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## swampyankee (Mar 23, 2020)

wuzak said:


> WW1?



Post WWI. Neither Germany nor Russia believed there should be an independent Poland; the USSR tried to return Poland to its prewar state of non-existence in 1919-1920 or so.

Edited to add:

But you knew that, and were reacting to a previous posters (presumably inadvertent) error. One thing I tend to find interesting is the remarkable continuity between the behavior of the czars and the commissars towards their neighbors. How many people really think that, had the monarchy won the Russian Civil War, Poland, Ukraine, Georgia, the Baltics, etc would have been permitted to continue in unmolested independence?

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## Snautzer01 (Mar 23, 2020)

U.S. troops were the highest paid during World War II, with enlisted
personnel receiving (in 1994 dollars) an average of $750 a month and
officers $2,200 a month. Troops in most other armies received token
amounts, or rarely more than a few hundred dollars a month. Officers
usually did much better, with many making about half what U.S.
officers were paid. U.S. troops overseas were quick to note that not
only were their dollars valuable, but so were the numerous goods they
received as part of their normal rations. Cigarettes and candy were
particularly valuable, as were the generally despised .(by the soldiers)
rations on which they often had to subsist. 

This led to the British
referring to the relatively flush GIs as "oversexed, overpaid, and over
here." 
Less well known is the phrase often said of the less-affluent
British troops, "underpaid, undersexed, and under Eisenhower" (who
was in command of all the Allied forces).

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## taly01 (Mar 23, 2020)

That horse transport still played a large part in most armies until mid-late war years.

The large number of rounds fired without hitting the target, even the 88 anti-tank gun during its best times with Afrika Korp was ~ 7% hit rate.


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## swampyankee (Mar 23, 2020)

One I think would cause a lot of people to cry "BS!" would be that Italian fascism was not intrinsically antisemitic, unlike nazism. (see, for example, Fascist Regime is Not Unfriendly to Italian Jews - Jewish Telegraphic Agency, Italy | www.yadvashem.org), [eta] until Mussolini dalliance, then alliance, with Hitler, [/eta] which started in about 1936 (note that Italian fascism was not antisemitic before then, _per se_, but Mussolini was). 

Actually, the politics of quite a few of the European countries pre-WW2 would cause a lot of people to cry "BS!" Quite a few of them were fascist.

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## JAG88 (Mar 23, 2020)

wuzak said:


> WW1?



Yep, corrected.


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## JAG88 (Mar 23, 2020)

RCAFson said:


> Yes, tough decisions, but Polish diplomacy managed to ensure that they had no immediate allies... Of course, as it turned out Poland did lose Belarus, but was compensated by getting a big slice of eastern Germany. There was a Franco-Soviet alliance and the failure by the UK, France and Poland to conclude a more concrete alliance with the USSR precipitated the Nazi-Soviet Pact.



Well, they did have allies... but they chose wrong, they opted to sit while they were being crushed in a two-front war, and those allies knew they would not help Poland even if Germany was the sole attacker, they were simply using the Poles to win time.

The Poles should have chose to bit the bullet and at least neutralize one of those fronts diplomatically, but that would have likely meant giving away lands with Polish population, not very likely. Tough spot.


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## swampyankee (Mar 23, 2020)

JAG88 said:


> Well, they did have allies... but they chose wrong, they opted to sit while they were being crushed in a two-front war, and those allies knew they would not help Poland even if Germany was the sole attacker, they were simply using the Poles to win time.
> 
> The Poles should have chose to bit the bullet and at least neutralize one of those fronts diplomatically, but that would have likely meant giving away lands with Polish population, not very likely. Tough spot.



I'm not sure either German or the USSR could be neutralized diplomatically; both countries (the USSR in its prveious guise as czarist Russia; Germany in its as Prussia) had a very long history of hatred for the concept of an independent Poland.

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## JAG88 (Mar 23, 2020)

swampyankee said:


> I'm not sure either German or the USSR could be neutralized diplomatically; both countries (the USSR in its prveious guise as czarist Russia; Germany in its as Prussia) had a very long history of hatred for the concept of an independent Poland.



I dont know if hatred is the correct word, they saw it as an easy target, lacked natural borders, and it was convenient to have a buffer zone between you and a powerful neighbor.

And they got used to that.

Edit: But, yeah, it would have been very hard, cant see Hitler or Stalin honoring any treaty with Poland long term, they would have switched from being the entree to being the dessert at best...


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## Dinger (Mar 23, 2020)

The most amazing story I know from WW2 that I would certainly call BS if I saw it portrayed in a movie concerns Captain Guy "Grif" Griffiths. He was a Royal Marine, one of a few serving in the Fleet Air Arm when war was declared. He was captured in the first few days of the war in the "Fanad Head Incident", itself an amazing series of events that many might deem unlikely if they were presented on screen. - Full story on one of my webpages here: Fanad Head Incident. But the most unbelievable part of his story is that concerning his escape. He was involved in many escape attempts during his time in POW camp but they were all frustrated. That was until the final months of the war when the prisoners we marched South towards Austria. During the march, Griffiths simply dropped out of the column while it was going through a small town in Southern Germany. The town was crowded with Axis troops in all types of different uniforms and he simply walked into a German canteen area and helped himself to food. You have to remember he was wearing his Dark Green Royal Marine dress uniform, quite unlike the usual khaki battledress of British soldiers. He was joined by a group of German soldiers who assumed he was a Hungarian officer. Griffiths knew a bit of German and they got into conversation. The Germans even produced some drink and they toasted "ultimate victory". Now the story gets really incredible. They asked this "Hungarian officer" since he appeared to have nothing else to do if he would interrogate the numerous escaped allied prisoners who were being brought in. He accepted- as long as he had written authority- which was promptly obtained, signed by the local chief-of-police and the Burgomeister! - So he set up an office to which escaped POWS were brought (mostly American). They came in through the front door and Griffiths promptly liberated them through the back door! The Germans apparently thought this brutal Hungarian officer was executing them! Eventually, the town was liberated by American forces and Griffiths joined them, taking part in fighting in the Danube region. There was no "official" way for Griffiths and some other escaped POWs with the Americans to be repatriated to England. The Germans refused to allow their entry to a POW camp that was liberated without official paperwork, and the Red Cross would only repatriate prisoners from official POW camps. So the prisoners had to forge German papers and be marched into the German POW camp by cooperative captured Germans. Then, when the Red Cross arrived at the camp a couple of days later the prisoners were officially "liberated". After cadging a lift to Rheims, and then another in a Lancaster bomber back to England, he arrived back at Royal Marines Easney Barracks on VE day. - The story is from an interview with Griffiths published in the Portsmouth Evening News on 13th June 1958 on the occasion of his retirement from the Royal Marines.

Story at this link - The Amazing Escape of Guy Griffiths

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## pbehn (Mar 23, 2020)

The story of Winkle Brown would make a completely unbelievable movie with a "whats that stuff about him speaking to Goering" comment.

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## jetcal1 (Mar 23, 2020)

pbehn said:


> The story of Winkle Brown would make a completely unbelievable movie with a "whats that stuff about him speaking to Goering" comment.


A bio-flick is long overdue on Captain Brown.

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## swampyankee (Mar 23, 2020)

There are a lot of really interesting escapes. Douglas Bader escaped twice (and was recaptured) twice; after the second, the Germans sent him to escape-proof Colditz (if I recall) took his legs*. Bob Hoover stole an FW190 in his escape. The Danish people rescued just about their entire Jewish population in what has to be the largest successful conspiracy in human history.


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* This wasn't as bad as it sounds; he had lost both legs in the early 1930s.

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## JAG88 (Mar 23, 2020)

A cylindrical rotating bomb that bounces on water so it can jump over torpedo nets in order to destroy a dam... anime stuff.

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## JAG88 (Mar 23, 2020)

swampyankee said:


> There are a lot of really interesting escapes. Douglas Bader escaped twice (and was recaptured) twice; after the second, the Germans sent him to escape-proof Colditz (if I recall) took his legs*. Bob Hoover stole an FW190 in his escape. The Danish people rescued just about their entire Jewish population in what has to be the largest successful conspiracy in human history.
> 
> 
> ----------
> * This wasn't as bad as it sounds; he had lost both legs in the early 1930s.



British fighter ace with wooden legs would have sufficed for me actually... my reaction would have been: "What? No eye patch? At least they didnt have his parrot flying as his wingman..."


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## pbehn (Mar 23, 2020)

Cant capture a harbour on the French coast, float one over and build one in a week.

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## Airframes (Mar 23, 2020)

Recruit a British safe breaker thief, who has been recruited by the Germans as a spy / saboteur, and send him back to Germany so that he can be sent back to Britain to 'spy' again - and end but being awarded the Iron Cross !
Already been a film made (loosely based on his 'exploits', given the files were still Classified at the time, late 1960's), but would love to see a more accurate re-make.

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## swampyankee (Mar 23, 2020)

JAG88 said:


> British fighter ace with wooden legs would have sufficed for me actually... my reaction would have been: "What? No eye patch? At least they didnt have his parrot flying as his wingman..."



No eye patch 

Bader was credited with 22 kills during the Battle of Britain.


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## taly01 (Mar 24, 2020)

Deputy-Fuhrer?! Rudolf Hess flying to Britain to negotiate with Great Britain.

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## Dinger (Mar 24, 2020)

swampyankee said:


> There are a lot of really interesting escapes. Douglas Bader escaped twice (and was recaptured) twice; after the second, the Germans sent him to escape-proof Colditz (if I recall) took his legs*. Bob Hoover stole an FW190 in his escape. The Danish people rescued just about their entire Jewish population in what has to be the largest successful conspiracy in human history.
> 
> 
> ----------
> * This wasn't as bad as it sounds; he had lost both legs in the early 1930s.



There was another British legless fighter pilot - Colin "Hoppy" Hodgkinson. He joined the Fleet Air Arm at the start of the war but lost both his legs and was very badly burnt in an accident while training (mid-air collision between a Tiger moth and a Harvard). When he was fit he transferred to the RAF and flew Spitfires on fighter sweeps over France. He was obviously afraid that if he had to bail out over the sea that his "tin-legs" would drag him down, so on his first operational flight he filled them with ping pong balls! - Climbing up over the channel he was alarmed by loud explosions in the cockpit. - They were the ping-pong balls exploding with the reduced outside air pressure! He had two victories to his credit - A FW190 near Folkestone and a Bf109 over France. The second victory was when he snuck up on a swarm of four Bf109s unobserved, he bought down one, but two of the others collided when they broke formation in opposite directions. He was only allowed to claim these as "damaged". He crashed in France in March 1944 after his oxygen supply failed in flight. What the Germans thought when a_ second _legless fighter pilot was captured were expressed by a high-ranking Luftwaffe officer who yanked back his blanket and gazed at his stumps with a puzzled frown. "You must hate us very much to want to fight us in that condition." - Like Bader, he had a set of legs parachuted in to enable him to walk. Hodgkinson was repatriated via Sweden by the Red Cross through a prisoner exchange scheme that required him not to fly on operations again. After the war, he was an active pilot in the Auxiliary Air Force, flying Vampire jets. Youtube video of the launch of his autobiography here. At this Link.

ERRATA 26/5/2020- I got all the information above from an article about Hodgkinson in the "RAF Flying Review" - Intrigued, I have since got a copy of his autobiography "Best Foot Forward" and found that many of the details in the book clash with those in the magazine article. - To list them: 1) The "ping pong" ball incident did not happen on his first combat flight. He did a series lower-level escort missions before that (His squadron at the time had Spitfire Vs, so they would do low cover while the Spitfire IX Squadrons would provide high cover), it was on the first mission that took him to 25,000 feet that the ping-pong ball incident occurred. 2) The incident of the two Bf109s colliding is not as describe, quite the reverse in fact. He was part of a force escorting bombers to attack Schiphol airport. Following a 109 in a dive, he pulled up and blacked out. When he came around he was inverted flying over the middle of the airfield. Four Bf109s were converging on him. The two outside 109s pulled up and collided. The remaining two rolled away. 3) his first "kill" was a FW190 that had just done a "tip-and-run" raid on Brighton. it came down 100 yards off the end of Brighton pier (not Folkestone). His second confirmed kill was on 16th Aug 1943 when flying as wingman to Wg Cmdr "Laddie" Lucas, escorting a Marauder strike on Bernay airfield, He got another FW190. 4) When he was captured his tin legs were damaged, but still usable. The RAF did parachute him a replacement, but they only sent one leg and it was completely useless - So he had to make do with his damaged ones. 5) His face had been badly injured in the crash when he was captured. It was for this, rather than his legs, that he was repatriated. 6) The terms of his repartiation did not preclude him flying in combat again. - But he had to spend a long time in hospital, getting his face repaired and a long time recuperating. When he returned to flying the RAF put him on ferry duties, but he asked to be put back on ops. In fact he made a journey to Germany a few weeks before the War ended in Europe to ask "Johnie" Johnson to take him back in his Squadron. While there Hodgkinson had another narrow escape when a Spitfire crashed on take off, killing two two men in the crash-tender next to which he had been standing.7) Lastly, the accident when he lost his legs was between two Tiger Moths (no Harvard involved). Both the Tiger Moths were doing blind-flying practice with the hoods pulled up over the student pilots.

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## vikingBerserker (Mar 24, 2020)

Now that's a cool story!

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## swampyankee (Mar 24, 2020)

Other good ones:
the mass escape from Sobibor. ()

There are five listed here: 5 Stories Of Real Life Escape Attempts By Allied Prisoners Of War

One horrible fact to which I wish I could call BS: Axis PoWs (at least those from Europe) in the US were better treated by local governments than the African-American soldiers guarding them, at least in the South.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 24, 2020)

michael rauls said:


> The Polish army charging tanks on horseback. I've read this for years but also a few that claim it never really happened. If it did you've got to admire that kind of courage if nothing else.


The Polish Cavalry did not charge the German tanks, they charged between the tanks to route the supporting panzergrenadiers in order to break out of an imminent encirclement.

In regards to oddities, the Battle of Castle Itter ranks up there at the top.

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## tomo pauk (Mar 24, 2020)

Mr. Spielberg & Mr. Hanks - please make a series about Duško Popov (too bad he was not seen as interesting person in ex-Yu and on, here). He is almost unknown today.
Also - the US and German soldiers, together with French high-ups, defending the Castle Itter.

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## yulzari (Mar 24, 2020)

Under the Geneva Convention POWs had the same level of rations as their capturing soldiers. In WW2 this meant that Axis POWs in Britain got better rations than British civilians.

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## TheMadPenguin (Mar 24, 2020)

JAG88 said:


> British fighter ace with wooden legs would have sufficed for me actually... my reaction would have been: "What? No eye patch? At least they didnt have his parrot flying as his wingman..."


This line should be uttered by the German officer inspecting the captive.

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## Elmas (Mar 24, 2020)

Six Italian frogmen that put out of service two British battleships, Valiant and Queen Elizabeth...

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## fastmongrel (Mar 26, 2020)

yulzari said:


> Under the Geneva Convention POWs had the same level of rations as their capturing soldiers. In WW2 this meant that Axis POWs in Britain got better rations than British civilians.



My Mother told me about the German POWs that worked on her Uncles farm. The Germans used to get Eggs, Meat and Full fat milk Mum got powdered Egg, Soya Sausages and Skimmed milk


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## Barrett (Mar 26, 2020)

FLYBOYJ said:


> How about a 21 year old fighter pilot who loop-the-loop the Golden Gate bridge and who also had a flight instructor who became a US Senator and presidential candidate.



AS I RECALL, the Bong story about the G Gate Bridge came from Geo. Kenney who was um marginal as a factual reference. A few of the 49th/475th guys I knew thought that Bong had buzzed Market Street rather than looping the bridge although I doubt if any of them were there. I was somewhat acquainted with BG, and he had been a Luke Field gunnery rather than flight instructor.

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## Reluctant Poster (Mar 26, 2020)

GrauGeist said:


> The Polish Cavalry did not charge the German tanks, they charged between the tanks to route the supporting panzergrenadiers in order to break out of an imminent encirclement.
> 
> In regards to oddities, the Battle of Castle Itter ranks up there at the top.


The US Army still favored the horse over the tank even after the invasion of Poland. The last Cavalry regiments were disbanded early in 1942.


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## swampyankee (Mar 26, 2020)

Reluctant Poster said:


> The US Army still favored the horse over the tank even after the invasion of Poland. The last Cavalry regiments were disbanded early in 1942.



One of my high school teachers was in the horsed cavalry under Patton.


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## ktank (Mar 26, 2020)

pbehn said:


> The story of Winkle Brown would make a completely unbelievable movie with a "whats that stuff about him speaking to Goering" comment.



His book "Wings on my Sleeve" has umpteen bizarre stories, but my favourite is him immediately after VE day flying around Luftwaffe airfields with a couple of German mechanics inspecting and test-flying Luftwaffe aircraft, including the only Allied "hot start" in an Me163. That section reads like a cross between James Bond and Gravity's Rainbow!

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## pbehn (Mar 26, 2020)

ktank said:


> His book "Wings on my Sleeve" has umpteen bizarre stories, but my favourite is him immediately after VE day flying around Luftwaffe airfields with a couple of German mechanics inspecting and test-flying Luftwaffe aircraft, including the only Allied "hot start" in an Me163. That section reads like a cross between James Bond and Gravity's Rainbow!


The whole thing about his life is just a silly hammed up bio pic of someone that didn't actually do all that stuff but did. Meeting Udet pre war, becoming a fighter pilot, shoot down a couple of Condors then getting your ship sunk, flying this and that setting all sorts of records and firsts which almost no one else survived and somehow he ended up talking to people and flying planes that in numbers will never be equalled.

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## ktank (Mar 27, 2020)

JAG88 said:


> It is late and I am bored, I will begin, feel free to post you own...
> 
> - Aggressively anti-communist German leader writes book in which he states his hatred for communism and declares his intention to colonize and, at the very least, displace if not get rid of the population of the nearby communist country... once he assumes power, he signs a non-aggression treaty with said neighbor and proceed to amicably divide eastern Europe like a cake among themselves.
> 
> All the hallmarks of an absurd what if... save for the fact that it happened.



Then late in the war, with the Red Army running rampant in the East, concentrates on trying to force the Western Allies to abandon unconditional surrender and join him to take on the Soviets. All it does is slow down the advance in the West, while the forces used in forlorn offensives (eg Ardennes Offensive) mean resistance in the East is reduced. Result - half of Europe, including a large part of Germany, ends up under communist rule. If he'd done nothing the Western Allies could have occupied Germany at least instead.

As I once saw written - Hitler was the most complete failure of the 20th century.


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## pinehilljoe (Apr 5, 2020)

A force of 27 ships could defeat an enemy with over 150 ships. (If Midway wasnt mentioned earlier)


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## TheMadPenguin (Apr 5, 2020)

pinehilljoe said:


> A force of 27 ships could defeat an enemy with over 150 ships. (If Midway wasnt mentioned earlier)


Because of their dispersal and radio silence, it was more a case of 27 ships against 10 fleets of 15 ships, most of which were not involved in the action.
(note this is NOT an assessment of the actual dispositions of the IJN, but the actual effect of the ships of the IJN ...)

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## swampyankee (Apr 5, 2020)

ktank said:


> Then late in the war, with the Red Army running rampant in the East, concentrates on trying to force the Western Allies to abandon unconditional surrender and join him to take on the Soviets. All it does is slow down the advance in the West, while the forces used in forlorn offensives (eg Ardennes Offensive) mean resistance in the East is reduced. Result - half of Europe, including a large part of Germany, ends up under communist rule. If he'd done nothing the Western Allies could have occupied Germany at least instead.
> 
> As I once saw written - Hitler was the most complete failure of the 20th century.



Which country was going to occupy where was decided by the allied leaders at a conference, not the stop lines of the armies. Had Hitler ended the war earlier by accepting surrender terms, there would have been a lot less suffering by the German people. Remember, instead of surrendering, he took the coward's way out. Too bad the German people didn't get to drag him through the streets and hang him from a lamp post.

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## MIflyer (Apr 5, 2020)

On occasion in the Battle of Britain RAF and German fighter pilots were on the same HF radio frequency and could talk to each other if they so desired.

Also on one day in the BoB all available RAF fighters were committed, and a WWI RAF fighter pilot, a Station Commander, was told there was a raid coming to attack his airfield and there was nothing to stop it. He jumped in his Mk1 Hurricane and headed for the German force. As it turned out, the German He-111 force, after getting thier arses shot off day after day, failed to rendezvous with its fighter escorts (unlike the RAF, the German fighters were never able to talk to their bombers) and were flying along fearfully, just knowing they were going to get clobbered big time. When the lone Hurricane attacked them, they said, "We knew it! The RAF fighters are here!", jettisoned their bombs and ran for home.

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## Dinger (Apr 8, 2020)

pbehn said:


> The whole thing about his life is just a silly hammed up bio pic of someone that didn't actually do all that stuff but did. Meeting Udet pre war, becoming a fighter pilot, shoot down a couple of Condors then getting your ship sunk, flying this and that setting all sorts of records and firsts which almost no one else survived and somehow he ended up talking to people and flying planes that in numbers will never be equalled.



One anecdote about Winkle Brown you will not find in his own autobiography, or any of his other books was recorded in "Haul Taut and Belay" the autobiography of Vice-Admiral Sir Donald Gibson. - He was one of the fighter pilots, along with Winkle Brown, flying Wildcats from HMS Audacity during its amazing actions on the Gibraltar convoys. When the carrier was sunk by U-boat they were both picked up by the from rafts by HMS Convolvulus. - It just Illustrates Winkles amazing good luck.... _" We disembarked at the Liver Building in Liverpool where Winkle Brown, in his best uniform, saved, I believe, from a suitcase floating in the water near HMS Convolvulus, was cheered by the enthusiastic population. We, dressed by the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society in the same clothing as the German prisoners who were also disembarking, were stoned by equally enthusiastic small boys. "_

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## TheMadPenguin (Apr 8, 2020)

Battle for Castle Itter - Wikipedia
German regular troops, American regular troops, French political prisoners & a few others TEAMED UP and fought side by side against the SS who sought to kill all the prisoners.


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## nuuumannn (Apr 9, 2020)

The Soviet Union got beaten by the Finns.
Britain became bankrupt and lost hold over the largest empire the world had ever seen.
De Havilland fitted a gun turret to the Mosquito.
The commander of a Kriegsmarine warship recommended an award for gallantry for a British destroyer captain bent on ramming his ship.
Operation Mincemeat, oh wait, that _was_ a movie...
A single Luftwaffe bomber sank two Kriegsmarine destroyers in one bombing run.
The Mark 14 torpedo.
The biography of Sidney Cotton, now that would make a great movie.
And his German counterpart Theodore Rohweil, who basically did a Sidney Cotton before Cotton thought of it and had state sponsoring and the use of any advanced aeroplanes he wanted.
The Final Solution - gulp.

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## GrauGeist (Apr 9, 2020)

Grant, you forgot the airship that attacked a submarine...


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## GrauGeist (Apr 9, 2020)

Oh yeah - and aircraft carriers made of sawdust and ice.

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## nuuumannn (Apr 9, 2020)

GrauGeist said:


> Oh yeah - and aircraft carriers made of sawdust and ice.



Yess! And aircraft with no undercarriage landing on rubber mats aboard them!

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## nuuumannn (Apr 9, 2020)

GrauGeist said:


> Grant, you forgot the airship that attacked a submarine...



That's soooo 1918.  The rigid R.29 did it and disabled UB 115, which was finished off by a destroyer.

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## pinehilljoe (Apr 9, 2020)

*Juan Pujol García* or Agent Garbo, and his group of fictional agents that fooled the Abwehr

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## swampyankee (Apr 9, 2020)

GrauGeist said:


> Grant, you forgot the airship that attacked a submarine...



The USN used blimps into the 1950s. They were quite successful as convoy escorts. See Navy's Lighter-Than-Air Experience Monograph

I'm sure there was more than one airship attacking a submarine.


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## Snowygrouch (Apr 9, 2020)

SOE planting news stories in the press saying Udet AND Rommell committed suicide BEFORE the date on which they actually DID.

E.g. Udet.

(Newspaper date 30th July 1941, actual death 17th November 1941).

This was discovered by Lee Richards, a UK researcher who I`ve met who specialises in black propoganda research. Absolutely unbelievable, and
if I didnt know Lee personally I would have said "you`ve just photoshopped that newspaper".

Lee says this was part of a plan to create discord about the inner harmony of the Nazi inner-circle. The fact both actually came to pass is
totally bonkers.

PsyWar.Org - Underground Propaganda against Nazi Germany - A talk by Lee Richards, May 2014

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## swampyankee (Apr 9, 2020)

Didn't Churchill say that in wartime, the truth needs a bodyguard of lies?

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## GrauGeist (Apr 9, 2020)

The incident I referred to, was the action between USN K-74 and U-134 - where the airship dove out of the clouds to an altitude of 250 feet and made a bombing/strafing pass on the Sub.
The U-boat shot down K-74, but not before being damaged itself.
All airship members survived the downing, but one crewman died by shark attack just as they were being rescued, the Sub escaped only to be caught on the surface and sunk by an RAF bomber a few days later as it was trying to return to Europe for repairs.


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## swampyankee (Apr 9, 2020)

GrauGeist said:


> The incident I referred to, was the action between USN K-74 and U-134 - where the airship dove out of the clouds to an altitude of 250 feet and made a bombing/strafing pass on the Sub.
> The U-boat shot down K-74, but not before being damaged itself.
> All airship members survived the downing, but one crewman died by shark attack just as they were being rescued, the Sub escaped only to be caught on the surface and sunk by an RAF bomber a few days later as it was trying to return to Europe for repairs.



Blimps were, reportedly, quite effective ASW platforms. Sometimes, I think LTA were prematurely removed from service, although they were, apparently, _very_ expensive to operate, especially in that large numbers of people were needed for ground handling.

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## herman1rg (Apr 9, 2020)

MIflyer said:


> On occasion in the Battle of Britain RAF and German fighter pilots were on the same HF radio frequency and could talk to each other if they so desired.
> 
> Also on one day in the BoB all available RAF fighters were committed, and a WWI RAF fighter pilot, a Station Commander, was told there was a raid coming to attack his airfield and there was nothing to stop it. He jumped in his Mk1 Hurricane and headed for the German force. As it turned out, the German He-111 force, after getting thier arses shot off day after day, failed to rendezvous with its fighter escorts (unlike the RAF, the German fighters were never able to talk to their bombers) and were flying along fearfully, just knowing they were going to get clobbered big time. When the lone Hurricane attacked them, they said, "We knew it! The RAF fighters are here!", jettisoned their bombs and ran for home.



IIRC That station commander was Wing Commander Victor Beamish who was assigned to RAF North Weald on 7th June 1940, I'm certain I read it in and RAF pilot's autobiography a few years ago.


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## Airframes (Apr 9, 2020)

Yes, I believe it's mentioned in "Gun button to fire", by Tom Neil.

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## MIflyer (Apr 9, 2020)

I believe I read of the incident in "Eagle Day." That's a really good book, by the way. While it does not give you the grand board picture of the BoB like the book by the two Dereks, or the detailed description of one day such as Dr Price's books, it is just chock full of personal accounts.


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## nuuumannn (Apr 9, 2020)

swampyankee said:


> Blimps were, reportedly, quite effective ASW platforms. Sometimes, I think LTA were prematurely removed from service, although they were, apparently, _very_ expensive to operate, especially in that large numbers of people were needed for ground handling.



That's pretty much it. The Brits had vast experience accumulated during the Great War, but following the loss of the rigid R.38 (built for the US Navy as ZR-2) in 1921 they decided that all british military operations with airships should cease. This wasn't strictly what happened as a few rigids hung around for trials of different things, such as copatibility as aircraft carriers, but non-rigids were scrapped and all that experience vanished. 

The US Navy were sensible in their retaining of them, but it had a monopoly on the production of helium following the Helium Act of 1925 and was the only country in the world using it for that purpose at that time. The US also was the only country that had the infrastructure to do so following Britain's decision to not employ them in 1921. Germany had limited facilities that Zeppelin developed at places like Staaken, and, as impressive as their between the wars achievements were with passenger rigids, supporting military operations of patrol vessels required a lot more than an empty field and some ground handlers.

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## Greyman (Apr 9, 2020)

_One day, on a sweep near Ostend, 'Wally' Conrad and Shouldice, his No.2, were chasing a 109 down from 25,000 feet. Shouldice, in his eagerness to get a shot in, collided with Conrad. Wally had just announced quite coolly that he would have to bail out, when Danny Brown's voice came on the R/T:_

_"I bags his typewriter!'_​
_Before he jumped, Wally just had time to say:_

_"Like hell you do Brown, I'm coming back!'_​
_Watching from 25,000 feet, to our horror it appeared Wally's parachute did not open but candled. Shouldice, the man to whom I owed my life, reported that his Spitfire was still flyable and that he was going to try and make it back. He was never heard from again._

_Several months later we were in the bar at Kenley with Brown and Zary holding forth as usual, when a strangely familiar voice said:_

_"Okay, Brown, give me my typewriter."_​
_Everybody spun around and looked into the smiling face of Walter Conrad._

_Walter's escape could only be described as miraculous. He had landed in the centre of a Belgian two-storey haystack, the only one within a radius of five square miles. He was knocked senseless by the impact, but suffered no broken bones. When darkness fell, members of the underground dug him out. He was housed in the tiny dwelling of the local commander of the underground, a former Belgian Army officer who had lost both his legs. The maquis leader allowed nothing to interfere with his operational objectives. On the night before he dispatched Walter on the train for the Spanish frontier, he insisted that Walter sleep in the only double bed in the house with his wife, an exceptionally beautiful French woman. Walter recounted that he did not rest well._

_He traveled on the train with a French-speaking companion and within plain view of the Spanish frontier the train was stopped and all passengers checked by the Gestapo. He had been ordered not to say a word to anyone. The companion producing forged identity papers, stating that Walter was deaf and dumb. He was placed in the hands of a Basque guide who made his living conducting escapees over the Pyrenees. Walter's physical stamina was stretched to the limit by this first-ever mountain climbing expedition. At the point of exhaustion, he plodded on against the howling winds in bitter, penetrating cold. One of the other escapees was unable to go any further. He was left by the guides without a qualm to freeze to death. Across the Spanish frontier, he was captured by the Guardia Civil, who threw him into jail. He experienced some very rough treatment from his captors. Finally, the British High Commissioner negotiated his release, and he was taken back to Gibraltar and flown back to England._

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## Benjdragon (Apr 16, 2020)

How about a B-17 that was blown in two. The rear part (with the tail gunner in it) glided down from 20,000+ feet and landed in a field. The tail gunner walked out of it without a scratch.

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## xylstra (Apr 16, 2020)

JAG88 said:


> It is late and I am bored, I will begin, feel free to post you own...
> 
> - Aggressively anti-communist German leader writes book in which he states his hatred for communism and declares his intention to colonize and, at the very least, displace if not get rid of the population of the nearby communist country... once he assumes power, he signs a non-aggression treaty with said neighbor and proceed to amicably divide eastern Europe like a cake among themselves.
> 
> All the hallmarks of an absurd what if... save for the fact that it happened.


The Hiroshima man who survived the A-bomb blast only to travel to Nagasaki just in time for its A-bomb debut and managed to survive that also. Only known person to have been A-bombed twice and to have lived to tell the tale.

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## denoferth (Apr 17, 2020)

Or my wife’s uncle, captured on Corregidor, after surviving march and camps, luckily escaped being torpedoed by USN subs while transported by unmarked ship to Japan to work in coal mines deemed too dangerous for Japanese miners in hills above Nagasaki. His status changed from a slave condemned by the emperor to be murdered at the first hint of an invasion to someone his former guards bowed to after the atomic bomb set him and his fellow POW slave laborers free.


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## Admiral Beez (May 13, 2020)

That the future and serving British PM would have overseen both the disasters of Gallipoli and Singapore.

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## nuuumannn (May 14, 2020)

An auxiliary cruiser sank a faster, more heavily armed warship, whilst being sunk herself... Kormoran versus HMAS Sydney.

A big ocean going submarine was destroyed by a small minesweeper half the submarine's length and less than a third its displacement in a surface engagement... HMNZS Moa versus Japanese submarine I-1


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## The Basket (May 14, 2020)

nuuumannn said:


> An auxiliary cruiser sank a faster, more heavily armed warship, whilst being sunk herself... Kormoran versus HMAS Sydney.
> 
> A big ocean going submarine was destroyed by a small minesweeper half the submarine's length and less than a third its displacement in a surface engagement... HMNZS Moa versus Japanese submarine I-1


Not true
The Sydney and Kormoran were equal in armament.


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## swampyankee (May 14, 2020)

Admiral Beez said:


> That the future and serving British PM would have overseen both the disasters of Gallipoli and Singapore.



In one of the USNI's podcasts, an author stated that the RN's reaction to "Winnie's back!" wasn't cheers and glee but "oh, crap."


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## Admiral Beez (May 14, 2020)

swampyankee said:


> In one of the USNI's podcasts, an author stated that the RN's reaction to "Winnie's back!" wasn't cheers and glee but "oh, crap."


Yep. Starting in Sept 1939, Churchill's neglecting Malayan defence as First Sea Lord and PM and then sending constituting and sending an unbalanced Force Z against the advice of the Admiralty was demonstrative of his lack of preparation followed by knee jerk reaction. Churchill's worst act though must be the Bengal famine, killing millions and irreparably sending India towards independence.


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## SaparotRob (May 14, 2020)

Benjdragon said:


> How about a B-17 that was blown in two. The rear part (with the tail gunner in it) glided down from 20,000+ feet and landed in a field. The tail gunner walked out of it without a scratch.


When I was 7(?), I read a DC comic with the severed tail section of a B-17, the tail gunner blasting away at the Luftwaffe as it descended, on the cover. Of course I acquired this important documentation of Army Air Force history. I haven’t thought about it for decades. I’m very surprised it might have some basis in fact. Or they just thought it up without knowing it sorta kinda happened.


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## pbehn (May 14, 2020)

SaparotRob said:


> When I was 7(?), I read a DC comic with the severed tail section of a B-17, the tail gunner blasting away at the Luftwaffe as it descended, on the cover. Of course I acquired this important documentation of Army Air Force history. I haven’t thought about it for decades. I’m very surprised it might have some basis in fact. Or they just thought it up without knowing it sorta kinda happe


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## SaparotRob (May 14, 2020)

The best kind of nonsense is “utter”.


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## pbehn (May 14, 2020)

Admiral Beez said:


> Churchill's worst act though must be the Bengal famine, killing millions and irreparably sending India towards independence.


Utter nonsense, if "The Bengal famine" did anything it hastened the formation of Bangladesh as a separate nation to India, all discussion of "The Bengal famine" ignores the fact that the Japanese were just a few miles away, that India had the food and Churchill was in England. Many regions of India didn't and don't like each other as we can see today, but you can find some activist who will prove Churchill was responsible for that too.

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## pbehn (May 14, 2020)

SaparotRob said:


> The best kind of nonsense is “utter”.


Sorry, wrong post, should have been to Admiral Beez.

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## herman1rg (May 14, 2020)

Benjdragon said:


> How about a B-17 that was blown in two. The rear part (with the tail gunner in it) glided down from 20,000+ feet and landed in a field. The tail gunner walked out of it without a scratch.


Any evidence of this anywhere?


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## pbehn (May 14, 2020)

herman1rg said:


> Any evidence of this anywhere?


There are many such tales (see what I did there). Could be 
*Erwin KoszyczarekIn*
Erwin KoszyczarekIn was the tail gunner on a B-17 bomber. In February of 1945, over Graz, Austria, two B-17 bombers crashed into one another. S/Sgt. Erwin Koszyczarekln was still in the gunnery section of the tail that fell 28,000 feet. He emerged from the tail section wreckage unhurt and was taken prisoner for the duration of the war.

The heroism of Andrew Mynarski VC. whom the Mynarski Lancaster is named after is only known because the rear gunner Pat Brophy who he was trying to save survived in the rear turret when the plane crashed and the bomb load exploded. 
WWII Wreckage Riders - Surviving the crash
Andrew Mynarski - Wikipedia

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## SaparotRob (May 14, 2020)

herman1rg said:


> Any evidence of this anywhere?

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## Admiral Beez (May 14, 2020)

GrauGeist said:


> Grant, you forgot the airship that attacked a submarine...


And the submarines that were to attack airships. https://hmse22.wixsite.com/memorial/hms-e22


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## fastmongrel (May 14, 2020)

How about the bomber that bombed itself. A Blackburn Skua dropped 2 Anti Submarine bombs on a U Boat at too low an altitude and at too shallow an angle, The bombs richocheted off the sea exploded under the aircraft which then crashed into the sea, luckily the dazed and surprised crew survived and were rescued by the rather puzzled U Boat crew.


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## SaparotRob (May 14, 2020)

That must have been embarrassing.


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## The Basket (May 14, 2020)

SaparotRob said:


> That must have been embarrassing.


Flying the Skua?

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## The Basket (May 14, 2020)

Pretty much anything the Swordfish did.

Except the Channel Dash. That was par for the course.

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## swampyankee (May 14, 2020)

pbehn said:


> Utter nonsense, if "The Bengal famine" did anything it hastened the formation of Bangladesh as a separate nation to India, all discussion of "The Bengal famine" ignores the fact that the Japanese were just a few miles away, that India had the food and Churchill was in England. Many regions of India didn't and don't like each other as we can see today, but you can find some activist who will prove Churchill was responsible for that too.



To be pedantic, Bangladesh didn't become a separate country until it separated from Pakistan after the Bangladesh Liberation War, which ended in 1971. I believe the proximal cause of the Liberation War was the actions of the military junta which had taken over the government of Pakistan and started a mass murder of Bangladesh's independence advocates and massacres such as those at the Dhaka University and with Operation Searchlight. When India gained its independence and Pakistan was separated from the British administrative region called "India," it was divided into West Pakistan, which is now the country of Pakistan, and East Pakistan, which became Bangladesh in 1971.


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## pbehn (May 14, 2020)

swampyankee said:


> To be pedantic, Bangladesh didn't become a separate country until it separated from Pakistan after the Bangladesh Liberation War, which ended in 1971. I believe the proximal cause of the Liberation War was the actions of the military junta which had taken over the government of Pakistan and started a mass murder of Bangladesh's independence advocates and massacres such as those at the Dhaka University and with Operation Searchlight. When India gained its independence and Pakistan was separated from the British administrative region called "India," it was divided into West Pakistan, which is now the country of Pakistan, and East Pakistan, which became Bangladesh in 1971.


I know, and the partition cost up to 2 million lives in "peacetime" with approximately 12 million displaced. I don't know whether Churchill was to blame for that or if they managed to pin some of it on Thatcher.


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## swampyankee (May 14, 2020)

Churchill was a known and vocal, even rabid, opponent of Indian independence. On the other hand, I don't think he held particular responsibility for the 1943 famine in India, and he directed some active efforts at famine relief take place.

I think anyone who has read anything about the partition of India would agree that it ended up being a horror show. What I find interesting is that the country that seemed (from this far distant perspective) that Pakistan, which has had a very troubled relationship with democracy, seems to be the more favored by the West.


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## Admiral Beez (May 15, 2020)

swampyankee said:


> I think anyone who has read anything about the partition of India would agree that it ended up being a horror show.


It was poorly done for certain, starting with the guy given the responsibility for drawing the new lines having just arrived, with little knowledge or interest in the welfare or interests of the inhabitants. Cyril Radcliffe, 1st Viscount Radcliffe - Wikipedia


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## MIflyer (May 15, 2020)

The uncle of a friend of mine was with a US Army unit that paused on its way across France after the Normandy Invasion. They helped a French lady whose barn had been knocked down and he struck up a friendship with the lady's daughter. The unit moved on and that night he dearly wanted to go visit the daughter. So he swiped a motorcycle, rode back to the farm and spent the night there, intending to get up before dawn and ride back to his unit before anyone realized that he and the motorcycle were missing.

When he awoke he was shocked to see it was already light out and, it had snowed. He headed back to his unit, getting confused because the route looked so different due to the snow. And he suddenly realized he had ridden into a group of German soldiers, who were shaving and eating breakfast. He immediately told them he needed to talk to their commander.

He had noted during the ride in daylight that the motorcycle had captain's bars painted on it. He introduced himself as Capt Berry and explained that his colonel had directed him to go ask for the German's surrender and that the Americans had them surrounded and their situation was hopeless. The German commander agreed but told him he expected Berry to bring his colonel to accept the surrender. Berry left and found his way back to his unit, where a grim faced group awaited him. They were going to take him into custody but he explained he had accepted the surrender of about 100 Germans and needed to go back there with the colonel tro seal the deal, which they did. When the story hit the Stars and Stripes newspaper his superiors decided it would be too hard to explain why they sent the "hero" to jail and let his unauthorized leave and motorcycle theft slide.

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## Admiral Beez (May 16, 2020)

swampyankee said:


> Churchill was a known and vocal, even rabid, opponent of Indian independence.


Opponent yes, but Churchill had no plan or interest in persuading India to stay within the Empire. Sending India’s men to die in ill-conceived deployment to Malaya (is this India’s ANZ Gallipoli debacle?) doesn’t help.


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## pbehn (May 16, 2020)

India would have been independent sooner if not for the war, asking the British to rule on the borders between the future states was a nonsense, like asking the Romans to decide on the Scottish border the day before they left.


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## yulzari (May 16, 2020)

Good luck getting the 'Indian' and 'Pakistani' partied to agree on a frontier. But we stray from aviation.

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## yosimitesam (May 24, 2020)

taly01 said:


> That horse transport still played a large part in most armies until mid-late war years.
> 
> The large number of rounds fired without hitting the target, even the 88 anti-tank gun during its best times with Afrika Korp was ~ 7% hit rate.


Yes, normal dispersion at maxium range. ATG's usually opened fire at the longest range they could penetrate, which was probably 1500-2000yds (meters) for a gun with the power of the 88. Barrel wear, tiny differences in powder charge volumes, variations in the machining of the shells (no two anything made by man are exactly alike, if you look close enough) were all part of the normal dispersion of all artillery weapons. Since range was the most critical (and most difficult to determine), the higher the MV of the ATG the better, i.e. the "range bracket" for a hit was greater. We could also add that visual bombing by the Americans using the Norden bombsight still resulted in an average of only 32% landing with 1000 feet of the aiming point. This dispersion was due to higher altitudes amplifying any normal angular error plus variable (unpredicable) winds from 25,000-ft down to the ground along with visibility problems.


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## yosimitesam (May 24, 2020)

tomo pauk said:


> Mr. Spielberg & Mr. Hanks - please make a series about Duško Popov (too bad he was not seen as interesting person in ex-Yu and on, here). He is almost unknown today.
> Also - the US and German soldiers, together with French high-ups, defending the Castle Itter.


I read (somewhere) that Popov was the "model" for Ian Fleming's "James Bond" character. He was certainly an interesting character worthy of a Hollywood movie. I read the book he wrote and his report of meeting J. Edgar Hoover of the FBI is both hilarious and frightening.


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## yosimitesam (May 24, 2020)

GrauGeist said:


> Oh yeah - and aircraft carriers made of sawdust and ice.


Or Lord Mountbatten almost killing US Adm King when the bullet he fired at the pykrete block richochets and clips the cuff of King's pants!

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## swampyankee (May 25, 2020)

A lot of people seem to disbelieve actual facts of WW2, such as, say, the Holocaust, even when confronted by actual physical evidence.

An event that movies can barely exaggerate is the Norwegian Resistance's destruction of the heavy water plant at Telemark.

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## Dinger (May 25, 2020)

fastmongrel said:


> How about the bomber that bombed itself. A Blackburn Skua dropped 2 Anti Submarine bombs on a U Boat at too low an altitude and at too shallow an angle, The bombs richocheted off the sea exploded under the aircraft which then crashed into the sea, luckily the dazed and surprised crew survived and were rescued by the rather puzzled U Boat crew.



Not one Skua but two - and nearly a third... But, as ever, its a complicated story - and if they had succeeded in sinking the sub it would have meant the Allies would not have got the German navy enigma codes at a critical phase of the war... Full story here...

The Sinking of the Fanad Head in WW2

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## herman1rg (May 25, 2020)

swampyankee said:


> A lot of people seem to disbelieve actual facts of WW2, such as, say, the Holocaust, even when confronted by actual physical evidence..



Flat earthers................................... (off topic I know)


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## SaparotRob (May 25, 2020)

Thanks for that link Dinger. Very informative. 
I’m a little ashamed for having laughed at the (initial) story. Finding out what actually happened, it makes one appreciate the gallantry of those men. 
Engaging the enemy with weapons both obsolete yet untested in the finest “tradition of Nelson”.

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## swampyankee (May 25, 2020)

Dinger said:


> Not one Skua but two - and nearly a third... But, as ever, its a complicated story - and if they had succeeded in sinking the sub it would have meant the Allies would not have got the German navy enigma codes at a critical phase of the war... Full story here...
> 
> The Sinking of the Fanad Head in WW2



I remember reading (iirc, it was in David Kahn's _Codebreakers_, but it was also a long time ago) that the Ultra community was absolutely furious when an SOE/OSS break-in stole some codebooks from the German Embassy in Turkey. Bletchley Park was reading those codes (or ciphers) and the Germans immediately changed codes and cipher keys, badly interrupting Ultra.

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## Dimlee (May 25, 2020)

Benjdragon said:


> How about a B-17 that was blown in two. The rear part (with the tail gunner in it) glided down from 20,000+ feet and landed in a field. The tail gunner walked out of it without a scratch.



There was a similar incident with Pe-8 shot down in June 1944 at 4000 m by the night fighter over Belarus. Tail gunner did not manage to release the canopy and lost consciousness when the aircraft began to spin. He has survived without injuries and then traveled for 3 days before he has met advancing Red Army units.


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## Dimlee (May 25, 2020)

A submarine surrendered to an aircraft... HMS Seal.


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## MIflyer (May 25, 2020)

There was a Lancaster tail gunner who was unable to escape when his aircraft w as hit by flak one night. The turret was jammed and the exit was blocked, with a fire raging in the fuselage in front of the turret. One of the other crewmen tried to help the tailgunner get out but the fire grew worse and finally had to give up and bail out. As he exited the airplane the tail gunner saw that the crewman's parachute was on fire.

The tailgunner just sat there and waited for the falling airplane to hit the ground, but what he did not know was that the fire had burned the tail off the airplane and the tail section was gliding down to a rather gentle landing. The first he knew that he was on the ground was when a German soldier came up and peered through the glass.


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## Greyman (May 25, 2020)

MIflyer said:


> The tailgunner just sat there and waited for the falling airplane to hit the ground, but what he did not know was that the fire had burned the tail off the airplane and the tail section was gliding down to a rather gentle landing. The first he knew that he was on the ground was when a German soldier came up and peered through the glass.



A little skeptical about the last bit -- but otherwise sounds like Pat Brophy's story and Andrew Mynarski's VC pbehn referenced: Andrew Mynarski - Wikipedia

*EDIT*: really drives home the thought of how much unbelievable heroism must have taken place and no witnesses survived to tell the tale.

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## Airframes (May 25, 2020)

There was also the RAF Lancaster tail gunner, Sgt Nicholas Alkemade, who bailed out, from 18,000 feet, *without a parachute, *and survived.

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## pbehn (May 25, 2020)

Two people survived the recent crash in Pakistan, I remember 4 people survived Japan Airlines Flight 123 - Wikipedia Though I don't think they were in a good way. Having seen the hawker Hunter crash in south England I still find it hard to believe the pilot survived and is relatively un injured sometimes luck can do things.


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## MIflyer (May 25, 2020)

It was common practice for ground crewman to sit on the tails of Spitfires to keep them from flipping onto their nose when doing run-ups or taxying in rough ground. I have read of two cases where Spitfires took off with crewmen hanging onto the tail and managed to get back down before they fell off. One was a woman in GB and the other was a man at a base in Italy, covered in the book Spitfire Into Battle.


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## MIflyer (May 25, 2020)

Airframes said:


> There was also the RAF Lancaster tail gunner, Sgt Nicholas Alkemade, who bailed out, from 18,000 feet, *without a parachute, *and survived.



In WWI a German Zeppelin crewman fell from his airship when it was bombed by an RAF fighter in midair, fell through a greenhouse, and survived.

Before WWII three German glider pilots took off to see if they could set world records by flying on the edge of a large thunderstorm. They were sucked into the storm, the gliders broke up and they bailed out. Their parachutes were shredded by the storm and one of them survived after being tossed about in the storm for an extended period. Something similar later happened to a USMC F8U pilot in NC.


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## SaparotRob (May 25, 2020)

Incredible.


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## Airframes (May 26, 2020)

The lady who "got a ride" on the tail of a spitfire, was Aircraft Woman Margaret Horton. The spitfire was Mk.V, AB910, which flies today with the BBMF.

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## MIflyer (May 27, 2020)

Airframes said:


> The lady who "got a ride" on the tail of a spitfire, was Aircraft Woman Margaret Horton. The spitfire was Mk.V, AB910, which flies today with the BBMF.



I understand that when they pried her off the tail someone asked, "What do we do now?" The response was, "Go get her a logbook and put her down for a half hour in a Spitfire."

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## gumbyk (May 27, 2020)

The Commando raid on St Nazaire would have to qualify. Hearing the story, it sounded like an outrageous movie script..

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## fastmongrel (May 27, 2020)

Sending a battleship up a narrow Norwegian Fjord to blast German destroyers at near point blank range. 
Battles of Narvik - Wikipedia

Mind you HMS Warspites entire career is pretty Hollywood.

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## Airframes (May 27, 2020)

Coincidence - I watched Clarkson's "Greatest Raid of All " just last week. There was a movie made, in the 1950's I believe, but I can't remember the title, even though I've seen it a few times !


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## MIflyer (May 27, 2020)

In WWII the Norwegian underground notified that the entire sardine catch had been purchased by the Germans and ordered to be shipped to their U-Boat bases. They assumed that the canned sardines would be used as food for U-boats and asked if the OSS could provide something appropriate to put in the cans.

The OSS sent Croton Oil, a very powerful laxative that they believed would be undetected in the strong taste of the sardines and their preservative oil. You can only imagine what it would be like on a U-boat where the whole crew had a severe case of the runs. But the OSS never found out if its sabotage had worked. Maybe some U-boats foundered due to excessive use of the toilet, or maybe the Germans just threw the stuff overboard.


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## gumbyk (May 28, 2020)

Airframes said:


> Coincidence - I watched Clarkson's "Greatest Raid of All " just last week. There was a movie made, in the 1950's I believe, but I can't remember the title, even though I've seen it a few times !


It came up on my youtube feed a couple of days before me seeing this thread too.


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## PFVA63 (May 28, 2020)

Hi,

There was a movie made in 1968 starring Lloyd Bridges called "Attack on the Iron Coast" that was kind of sort of loosely based on the Raid on St Nazire. Here is a synopsis from the Internet Movie Database.

Pat

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062688/plotsummary?ref_=tt_stry_pl 

_During WW2, Canadian Major Jamie Wilson suggests a commando raid against a German-occupied French port where a large dry-dock is used by the enemy to re-fit battleships. The well-defended French coast has been dubbed the Iron Coast by the Germans. The British command is reluctant to give the green-light to this operation, code-named Operation Mad Dog, mainly because of the high chance of failure. The Canadian officer is known to have botched a few previous operations under his command. The main opponent of the Mad Dog operation is a Royal Navy captain whose son died during a failed commando raid led by Major Jamie Wilson. However, after much debate and haggling, the operation is approved by the R.N. Admiral in charge. The training of the commandos is harsh, under real battle conditions featuring live explosions and machine-gun fire. During the training, several accidents occur, resulting in a few deaths and wounds. The operation's future hangs into balance but it finally receives the go-ahead. Major Jamie Wilson is dismayed when he discovers that due to war-time shortages he will receive sub-standard equipment and an old mine-layer rather than a destroyer for transport to France. The plan itself calls for a ship laden with explosives to be rammed into the Nazi dry-dock. The explosives would be triggered by a timer, allowing the commandos on board to land and attack the shore installations, batteries and command posts. At the same time, a few small launches would land additional commandos along the neighboring piers to create a diversionary attack. The operation is in danger of failure when the task force is spotted off the French coast by a German observation plane that promptly contacts the German shore command. Moreover, the commando group receives an order from the Admiralty to abort the mission due to RAF's inability to offer bombing support for the operation. To make matters worse, the alerted Germans sense something is afoot and watch the sea with added vigilance. Regardless, Major Jamie Wilson is a stubborn man who wants to prove to himself and to his superiors that he is a capable soldier. Disregarding several requests from the Admiralty to abort the mission, he presses on into the night, toward the deadly Iron Coast._


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## Airframes (May 28, 2020)

I've remembered the title of the British movie about the St. Nazaire raid - it was "Gift Horse" made in 1952.

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## fastmongrel (May 28, 2020)

Airframes said:


> I've remembered the title of the British movie about the St. Nazaire raid - it was "Gift Horse" made in 1952.



Trevor Howard at his gruff finest as the Captain and Dickie Attenborough playing his usual role of cheerful chirpy cockney..

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## yulzari (May 29, 2020)

MIflyer said:


> In WWII the Norwegian underground notified that the entire sardine catch had been purchased by the Germans and ordered to be shipped to their U-Boat bases. They assumed that the canned sardines would be used as food for U-boats and asked if the OSS could provide something appropriate to put in the cans.
> 
> The OSS sent Croton Oil, a very powerful laxative that they believed would be undetected in the strong taste of the sardines and their preservative oil. You can only imagine what it would be like on a U-boat where the whole crew had a severe case of the runs. But the OSS never found out if its sabotage had worked. Maybe some U-boats foundered due to excessive use of the toilet, or maybe the Germans just threw the stuff overboard.


Trivial but this was done by the British. What it does show is how important coastal shipping was even through the English Channel with the rail networks being overloaded. Coastal convoys of both sides continued to run through the Channel despite the risks of mines, coastal artillery, air strikes and torpedo and gun boat attacks.

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## Admiral Beez (Jun 21, 2020)

That Britain’s Malaya Command with 140,000 troops, over a thousand artillery and antitank guns and nearly 300 aircraft could so quickly fall to a Japanese army half its size, with 130,000 men, or 92% of the British garrison surrendering to the Japanese exactly 70 days later.

Had the British and Imperial troops known what the IJA had planned for them perhaps they’d have fought on. It’s hard to imagine a Japanese army of 140,000 men abandoning their ground with 92% of their number surrendering into British or American hands. Did that ever happen before the Emperor’s stand down order? When the US retook the Philippines the IJA had 349,000 troops, of which less than 13,000, or 3.5% were captured.

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## swampyankee (Jun 22, 2020)

Virginia Hall, the socialite with an artificial leg who joined the SOE and spent the next several years pissing off nazis in occupied France.

Actually, all of the women who served as SOE or OSS agents in occupied Europe.

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## SaparotRob (Jun 22, 2020)

michael rauls said:


> The Polish army charging tanks on horseback. I've read this for years but also a few that claim it never really happened. If it did you've got to admire that kind of courage if nothing else.


I’ve seen it on a YouTube site. Simple History IIRC. The Polish cavalry attacked a German position and suffered heavy casualties. After the battle, German reinforcements arrived and the scene was staged with Armor in the background.


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## WARSPITER (Jul 4, 2020)

The original photo evidence of Peenumunde and the development of the V2 was laughed at by the British chief scientist - we haven’t developed anything like that so how could they ? Peenemunde was said to be a sewerage site even though it wasn't near any large population area.

Fortunately it was decided that the photo recce unit needed a better set of equipment for viewing to prove things one way or another.

A new 3D photo put together thingy was available from Switzerland. One was sent to Sweden for the RAF to pick up.

Reasonable cloak and dagger movie so far.

Now lets add the ‘oh that’s a bit far fetched’ part to the script.

A Mosquito goes to Sweden and the machine is put in bits into the bomb bay and tied securely etc. The Mossie has two crew in the cockpit but a scientific technical type gent has come along to make the thing work and needs to go with them.

He is also placed in the bomb bay on a sort of hammock facing down on his stomach.

Off they go in the dark of night and very near to Scotland get bounced by a German Night Fighter.

The pilot does the usual thing to wipe speed off quickly and get out of the night fighters line - he opens the bomb bay doors. The Mossie slows quickly and they evade. Soon they land and everything is ok.

Ok for the crew but not so much for the poor sod in the bomb bay which was still open as the pilot had (forgotten / not bothered) not closed it again being so close to landing anyway.

So there you are - a boffin type non combatant lying face down in the dark - then a rush of air probably with some loud noises followed by an eventual darkened view of a runway a few feet below your face as you land at 120 mph or so.

Yes - it happened and no I don’t know if the bloke went back to Switzerland by plane or rowing boat and his feet. Either way he was important. All this lead to operation Crossbow.

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## buffnut453 (Jul 4, 2020)

How about a Nigerian-born jazz drummer who could speak 6 languages and fought in the Warsaw Ghetto during WW2:

August Agbola O'Browne - Wikipedia

I think it would make a great movie.

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## herman1rg (Jul 4, 2020)

WARSPITER said:


> The original photo evidence of Peenumunde and the development of the V2 was laughed at by the British chief scientist - we haven’t developed anything like that so how could they ? Peenemunde was said to be a sewerage site even though it wasn't near any large population area.
> 
> Fortunately it was decided that the photo recce unit needed a better set of equipment for viewing to prove things one way or another.
> 
> ...


Here's another connected to the "BOAC Express" between the UK and Sweden.

Niels Bohr the Physicist escaped from Denmark to Sweden in September 1943.
When the news of Bohr's escape reached Britain, Lord Cherwell sent a telegram to Bohr asking him to come to Britain. Bohr arrived in Scotland on 6 October in a de Havilland Mosquito operated by the British Overseas Airways Corporation (BOAC).The Mosquitos were unarmed high-speed bomber aircraft that had been converted to carry small, valuable cargoes or important passengers. By flying at high speed and high altitude, they could cross German-occupied Norway, and yet avoid German fighters. Bohr, equipped with parachute, flying suit and oxygen mask, spent the three-hour flight lying on a mattress in the aircraft's bomb bay. During the flight, Bohr did not wear his flying helmet as it was too small, and consequently did not hear the pilot's intercom instruction to turn on his oxygen supply when the aircraft climbed to high altitude to overfly Norway. He passed out from oxygen starvation and only revived when the aircraft descended to lower altitude over the North Sea. Bohr's son Aage followed his father to Britain on another flight a week later, and became his personal assistant

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## buffnut453 (Jul 4, 2020)

Here's another great story about the defection of a Ju88 night fighter to Britain in 1943:

https://www.airfix.com/uk-en/news/a...$ja=tsid:71284&dm_i=2DJZ,1M44M,2AQ5CG,5H3KL,1

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## SaparotRob (Jul 4, 2020)

buffnut453 said:


> Here's another great story about the defection of a Ju88 night fighter to Britain in 1943:
> 
> https://www.airfix.com/uk-en/news/aerodrome/defecting-junkers-a-fascinating-wartime-story?utm_campaign=2711398_Airfix - Aerodrome - Week 14 2020/2021&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Hornby PLC&_$ja=tsid:71284&dm_i=2DJZ,1M44M,2AQ5CG,5H3KL,1


That was a great read my friend. Thanks.


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## Airframes (Jul 4, 2020)

I had the pleasure, and privilege, of being granted access to walk around this Ju88 at Cosford, a couple of years back.
It's far better that this aircraft, and some others from Hendon, are now at Cosford, as viewing and lighting conditions are much better.


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## MiTasol (Jul 4, 2020)

herman1rg said:


> Here's another connected to the "BOAC Express" between the UK and Sweden.



BOAC = Better On A Camel

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## Glider (Jul 4, 2020)

Flight Sergeant Dobney
In August 1940 Tom Dobney applied to join the RAF, He lied about his age but blagged his way through the initial selection process and medical and was accepted for training at the age of 14 and three months.
On 12 May 1941 he had his first training flight in Tiger Moth at the age of 15 and four days and soloed three weeks after his fifteenth birthday.
Tom was awarded his wings when 15 four months and three days and with that his promotion to flight sergeant. Selected for bomber aircraft he flew three missions as the pilot in Whitley bombers including one combat against German fighters when his father tracked him down and he was grounded aged 15. Finally discharged from the RAF in January 1942 while still aged 15 he was told in writing that when he was the right age he could apply for the RAF and would be qualified to wear his wings from the first day, which he did

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## Airframes (Jul 4, 2020)

And a kid that age, these day, probably wouldn't be able to get his head away from his is "I Phone" long enough to realise there are such things as aeroplanes !
Wonderful !!

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## SaparotRob (Jul 4, 2020)

Airframes said:


> And a kid that age, these day, probably wouldn't be able to get his head away from his is "I Phone" long enough to realise there are such things as aeroplanes !
> Wonderful !!


I use my iPhone to read about aero planes.

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## WARSPITER (Jul 11, 2020)

Using the best interceptor of the war to deliver beer ?

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## Snautzer01 (Jul 11, 2020)

WARSPITER said:


> Using the best interceptor of the war to deliver beer ?

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## GrauGeist (Jul 11, 2020)

WARSPITER said:


> Using the best interceptor of the war to deliver beer ?


It was done in most theaters and by both Allied and Axis alike.


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## WARSPITER (Jul 11, 2020)

Perhaps that is why the needed to keep making them bigger and faster (when you absolutely need it...) ?


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## Snautzer01 (Jul 11, 2020)

That is why the boys needed droptanks in the first place.

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## Snautzer01 (Jul 11, 2020)

P51 named Spare Parts North American P-51 Mustang

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## buffnut453 (Jul 11, 2020)

But does dropping said drop tank constitute alcohol abuse?


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## GrauGeist (Jul 11, 2020)

buffnut453 said:


> But does dropping said drop tank constitute alcohol abuse?


Perhaps, but if you lost your load of beer, your best option would be to bale out and surrender to the enemy.
You'd be treated far better than you would if you returned to the field empty-handed with an entire base full of thirsty guys anticipating your arrival...

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## wuzak (Jul 17, 2020)



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## buffnut453 (Jul 17, 2020)

Here's another man who deserves to have a film made about his life, Noel Godfrey Chavasse, VC & Bar, MC:

Noel Godfrey Chavasse - Wikipedia

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## SaparotRob (Sep 14, 2020)

Battle off Samar. If it wasn’t true it would be a bad TV movie.

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## TheMadPenguin (Sep 14, 2020)

SaparotRob said:


> Battle off Samar. If it wasn’t true it would be a bad TV movie.


Ditto "The Battle Of 5 Sitting Ducks" (aka Savo Island) would be cheap anti-US propaganda if it weren't true.

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## vikingBerserker (Sep 14, 2020)

SaparotRob said:


> Battle off Samar. If it wasn’t true it would be a bad TV movie.



That is one movie that needs to be made!

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## SaparotRob (Sep 14, 2020)

TheMadPenguin said:


> Ditto "The Battle Of 5 Sitting Ducks" (aka Savo Island) would be cheap anti-US propaganda if it weren't true.


I always found reading about the Battle of Savo Island depressing. I seem to lack the dispassionate outlook of an historian. 


vikingBerserker said:


> That is one movie that needs to be made!


That would be great. Watching a YouTube video just isn’t as satisfying as full out Hollywood blockbuster.


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## Admiral Beez (Sep 20, 2020)

The fact that after Napoleon’s winter weather and logistical disaster in Russia that Germany would invade in 1941 without any preparation for the winter and with wholly inadequate logistics and supply chain.

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## TheMadPenguin (Sep 20, 2020)

Admiral Beez said:


> The fact that after Napoleon’s winter weather and logistical disaster in Russia that Germany would invade in 1941 without any preparation for the winter and with wholly inadequate logistics and supply chain.



The movie version of this would have an old, exhausted ghost-of-Napoleon YELLING at Hitler in the latter's grand planning meetings for EVERY mistake being made, pointing at Hitler's maps and ToE and declaring the shortages and obvious fool notions.

Londo Mollari as Napoleon?

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## Admiral Beez (Sep 20, 2020)

TheMadPenguin said:


> The movie version of this would have an old, exhausted ghost-of-Napoleon YELLING at Hitler....


For starters, _“Toi idiot. Vous n'avez pas de carte? Quelle distance y a-t-il entre Varsovie et Moscou?“_

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## swampyankee (Sep 20, 2020)

TheMadPenguin said:


> The movie version of this would have an old, exhausted ghost-of-Napoleon YELLING at Hitler in the latter's grand planning meetings for EVERY mistake being made, pointing at Hitler's maps and ToE and declaring the shortages and obvious fool notions.
> 
> Londo Mollari as Napoleon?



Would this be after yelling at the French military of 1940 for their incompetence? 

In any case, Napoleon would do his best to minimize Hitler's successes. He'd also be busy haunting Petain and Laval's nightmares, as traitors to France.

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## Mad Dog (Sep 21, 2020)

michael rauls said:


> The Polish army charging tanks on horseback. I've read this for years but also a few that claim it never really happened. If it did you've got to admire that kind of courage if nothing else.


It's a myth. The event in question was at Krojanty, and was actually a limited success for the Poles. Their 18th Pomeranian Uhlans charged and dispersed a German company they caught at rest. It was a short-lived victory - the Germans brought up armoured cars and their machine-guns savaged the exposed cavalry, killing or wounding a third of them before they could make cover.
The subsequent myth of massed Polish cavalry charging Panzers was an invention of Goebbels, who seized on an opportunity to attack those people still doubting his propaganda. His story was that Polish spies had seen the Germans training pre-War with tanks made of cardboard - they did, the Treaty of Versailles having forbidden Germany from building real tanks.





The myth is that the Poles therefore assumed in 1939 that Hitler's claims of hundreds of tanks was a bluff. Foreign journalists swallowed the story without question. Post-War, the story was resurrected by the Soviets to belittle Polish military prowess, and was again unquestioningly repeated by foreign journalists.


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## Mad Dog (Sep 21, 2020)

pbehn said:


> The story of Winkle Brown would make a completely unbelievable movie with a "whats that stuff about him speaking to Goering" comment.


One of my fave stories about Brown was when he was test-flying a Tempest V with an over-boosted Sabre engine. The engine went pop and Brown was forced to bale out. He landed safely in a very mucky pond, only to find the pond was in a field occupied by "what looked like the World's biggest and meanest bull!" Whenever Brown started to wade towards one side of the pond, the snorting bull would race round and stand ready for him to exit. Fearful of the bull's horns, Brown was trapped in the pond until some local troops found the farmer, a tiny man, who simply led the bull away by the ring in its nose. Apparently, the bull was about as mean as your average Labrador, and had only wanted to make friends with Brown.

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## GrauGeist (Sep 21, 2020)

Out of 16 Polish cavalry charges during the invasion of Poland (most being successful in routing German Infantry), there was actually one instance where they did, indeed, charge armor.
The Wolynska brigade, in support of the 21st armored brigade, attacked a German armored column and routed it's advance.

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## fastmongrel (Sep 21, 2020)

TheMadPenguin said:


> The movie version of this would have an old, exhausted ghost-of-Napoleon YELLING at Hitler in the latter's grand planning meetings for EVERY mistake being made, pointing at Hitler's maps and ToE and declaring the shortages and obvious fool notions.
> 
> Londo Mollari as Napoleon?



No wonder the ghost of Napoleon is exhausted he's been yelling at incompetent French generals and politicians for a century.

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## nuuumannn (Dec 7, 2021)

The Basket said:


> Not true
> The Sydney and Kormoran were equal in armament.



No, they weren't; gosh Basket, even you should have known this is wrong. The Sydney had two more guns in its main armament and a heavier secondary armament, with marginally greater calibre than the Kormoran's guns, not to mention better disposition of its armament.


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## The Basket (Dec 7, 2021)

In terms of main armament then yes they were close. Maybe not equal but certainly close. 

Since I have no idea what I wrote then I claim only stupidity as my defence.

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## nuuumannn (Dec 7, 2021)

The Basket said:


> In terms of main armament then yes they were close. Maybe not equal but certainly close.
> 
> Since I have no idea what I wrote then I claim only stupidity as my defence.



Hmmm, okay, I'll take it 

Not stupidity at all, as you stated they were close.

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## The Basket (Dec 8, 2021)

You are correct to question my comment as it is incorrect. 

A casual observer may get the wrong impression.

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## Acheron (Dec 12, 2021)

TheMadPenguin said:


> The movie version of this would have an old, exhausted ghost-of-Napoleon YELLING at Hitler in the latter's grand planning meetings for EVERY mistake being made, pointing at Hitler's maps and ToE and declaring the shortages and obvious fool notions.


And Hitler looks confused at Napoleon's ghost because he doesn't speak French?

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## Thumpalumpacus (Dec 12, 2021)

SaparotRob said:


> Battle off Samar. If it wasn’t true it would be a bad TV movie.



Man, everyone's taking my choices, first Nicholas Alkemade, then Samar. Thankfully y'all saved me Operation Tidal Wave, the 1943 low-level air raid on Ploesti. That would make one hell of a movie, I think.

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## buffnut453 (Dec 12, 2021)

I'd still like to see something, even a documentary, about the Siege of Habbaniyah in May 1941 when No.4 Flying Training School flying a mixed back of Audaxes, Hart Trainers, Oxfords and other sundry types, beat off a surrounding force of Iraqi soldiers. 

The Wiki page offers a good general overview: Anglo-Iraqi War - Wikipedia

I'd also strongly recommend "Hidden Victory" by Tony Dudgeon, a first-hand account by one of the Oxford pilots who participated in operations.

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## pinehilljoe (Dec 12, 2021)

The pilots of two carrier air groups and one squadron of TBFs could turn the tide of a war (Midway)


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## fastmongrel (Dec 13, 2021)

pinehilljoe said:


> The pilots of two carrier air groups and one squadron of TBFs could turn the tide of a war (Midway)


I think turn the tide of a campaign yes but not the war. I think any battle outside the Battle of Stalingrad would struggle to claim it turned the tide of a war.

Midway is the biggest "how did they do that" battle though. Every time I read about Midway I am amazed that the Japanese didn't win.


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## pbehn (Dec 13, 2021)

fastmongrel said:


> I think turn the tide of a campaign yes but not the war. I think any battle outside the Battle of Stalingrad would struggle to claim it turned the tide of a war.


Even Stalingrad marked the fact that the tide had turned, it was at almost the same time as Alamein etc.

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## buffnut453 (Dec 13, 2021)

I'd refer to Midway as a turning point in that it marked the turn...but the battle itself didn't turn the tide. For example, the Japanese were still on the offensive after Midway, as evidenced by the landings at Buna and Gona, and the resultant fighting along the Kokoda Track.

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## pinehilljoe (Dec 13, 2021)

fastmongrel said:


> I think turn the tide of a campaign yes but not the war. I think any battle outside the Battle of Stalingrad would struggle to claim it turned the tide of a war.
> 
> Midway is the biggest "how did they do that" battle though. Every time I read about Midway I am amazed that the Japanese didn't win.


This has been discussed in many threads, but simply put after Midway, the Japanese had no strategic victories in the Pacific. There were tactical wins, but no strategic. 

I would consider November 1942 as a global Waterloo for the Axis, with Torch, El Alamein, Stalingrad, and Guadalcanal, the axis would never again have a strategic victory and only a few limited tactical wins.

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## SaparotRob (Dec 13, 2021)

Wasn't there a Commonwealth pilot, who after being captured the Germans, invited himself to mess with one of the other Axis groups there? Then he offered to help in interrogating the British prisoners. He brought them in through one door and sent them out another. The Axis officers thought he was "eliminating" them.


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## Acheron (Dec 13, 2021)

Side note, I once read that on the Eastern Front, the Battle of the Moscow was the strategic turning point, Stalingrad the psychological and Kursk the tactical.

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## yulzari (Dec 17, 2021)

SaparotRob said:


> Wasn't there a Commonwealth pilot, who after being captured the Germans, invited himself to mess with one of the other Axis groups there? Then he offered to help in interrogating the British prisoners. He brought them in through one door and sent them out another. The Axis officers thought he was "eliminating" them.


A Royal Marine who passed himself off as an Hungarian due to his uncommon uniform.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Dec 18, 2021)

buffnut453 said:


> I'd refer to Midway as a turning point in that it marked the turn...but the battle itself didn't turn the tide. For example, the Japanese were still on the offensive after Midway, as evidenced by the landings at Buna and Gona, and the resultant fighting along the Kokoda Track.



I think the biggest thing Midway changed was the timeline for final victory. That victory was itself, I believe, inevitable. 

The other thing it changed was that it gave the Allies a chance to take the initiative in the Solomons, insofar as KdB would obviously be hard-put to contest it in strength. The Allies promptly seized the opportunity, launching their offensive two months later.

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## Thumpalumpacus (Dec 18, 2021)

Acheron said:


> Side note, I once read that on the Eastern Front, the Battle of the Moscow was the strategic turning point, Stalingrad the psychological and Kursk the tactical.



I believe the German defeat in front of Moscow doomed them to defeat in the East, but it was Stalingrad that put the stake into their heart. I see Kursk as a form of denialism on their part.

After Moscow, they could only mount a major offensive with one of the three eastern army groups, and Stalingrad put paid to that one. By Kursk, they were scraping bottom of barrel to equip the assault.

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## GrauGeist (Dec 18, 2021)

The tragedy of Stalingrad, is that it was a political objective, not strategic.

The Germans could have easily swept around it and pushed onward, but good ol' Adolph simply had to sack Uncle Joe's namesake and ended up sending an entire army into a meat grinder.

Brilliant...

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## rochie (Dec 18, 2021)

Douglas Bader escaping from a prisoner of war camp by exercising in foggy conditions walking up and down in front of his guard, walking a little further away each time and then simply walking off into the fog !

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## MIflyer (Dec 18, 2021)

The RAF needed accurate watches, available from Switzerland, but which was cut off.

So the Germans bought watches in Switzerland, brought them to Spain, and sold them to the Brits through an intermediary.

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## fastmongrel (Dec 19, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> The tragedy of Stalingrad, is that it was a political objective, not strategic.
> 
> The Germans could have easily swept around it and pushed onward, but good ol' Adolph simply had to sack Uncle Joe's namesake and ended up sending an entire army into a meat grinder.
> 
> Brilliant...


I think the bad Charlie Chaplin impersonator gets the blame wrongly for the 6th Army's defeat at Stalingrad. Researchers have combed through all the available contemporaneous records and before mid September hitler mentions Stalingrad precisely never. hitler was obsessed with the Caspian oilfields so obsessed he took operational control of the southern attack of Fall Blau.

It was the OKH (lit, upper command of the army) and it's chief of staff Halder then after he was sacked on 24th September 1942 Zeitzler that were responsible for the defeat.

Much as I hate to give Adenoid Hinkel any praise he was right about the oil.

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## fastmongrel (Dec 19, 2021)

MIflyer said:


> The RAF needed accurate watches, available from Switzerland, but which was cut off.
> 
> So the Germans bought watches in Switzerland, brought them to Spain, and sold them to the Brits through an intermediary.


Switzerland was allowed to trade with other neutral nations. Hundreds of thousands of watches were exported to Portugal apparently enough for every citizen of Lisbon to wear a watch on both wrists. Most of the watches went by land through Vichy France but a good proportion went by air.


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