# Air Combat Board / Miniatures games WW2



## kettbo (Aug 21, 2011)

Long ago I played the AIR FORCE and DAUNTLESS board games to death. These were the original games with data cards, not the updated Avalon Hill (?) version with the color charts. The firing/gun damage model sucked.

Lots of other games played, tinkered-with.
Interested in talking about this later this evening when I return from work

Regards,

George

(mods, if this is not a good place for this, move the thread after we get some visibility here. thx)


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## krieghund (Aug 29, 2011)

Yes I go all the way back to Foxbat Phantom. I bought all the addons to AF D and designed a few that weren't available at the time. However, a far superior WWII aircraft board game is from J.D. Webster's Fighting Wing series, Achtung Spitfire, Over the Reich, Whistling death, Buffalo wings and soon Wings of the Motherland. The most realistic is the way the Vn is handled in the game which makes turning about as close as you can get without resorting to a computer game. You can see what I mean.


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## bobbysocks (Aug 30, 2011)

then there were the "bookshelf" games. i got the "luftwuffe" game back in the early 70s. looked exciting but was so complex with all the punch out "chits" it was too slow moving and not enough action. that i think we only played it once. its probably still in my mother's attic.


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## TheMustangRider (Aug 30, 2011)

Man, I definitely have to check out these cardboard games.
Being a late 90's/early 00's kid I grew up playing Game Boy games


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## vikingBerserker (Aug 30, 2011)

Man, that brings back some memories.


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## parsifal (Aug 30, 2011)

For a fun beer and pretzels game series try the "Rise of the Luftwaffe" series. Takes about 2 hours to play, can be eminantly used in tournaments. There are a number of different variants. ROTL deals with the Luftwaffe 1939-42. Thers another "the eighth af" deals with the strategic bomber offensive, "Zero" deals with the early war period in the pacific, "Hellcats and Corsairs" is the period 1942-5.

Usual way to play a tournament is via two rounds. Each Player gets 5 planes and 5 pilots, pilots are drawn at random. Each player plays five rounds of combat, and records the number of kills he achieves. Then players swap sides and play the other side, can select different aircraft. 

Winner is the player who registers the most kills. In the case of a tie there is a countback on the VP value of the aircraft he has selected.

A neat trick was to select a bomber in the group. Have very high VPs, then try and survive to the end of the combat. You always put your bomber up against the wekest or least effective of the opposing aircraft. It was fairly easy to achieve a tie, then, if your bomber survives get a victory in the comp by a VP countback.

Game is currently marketed by GMT. Attached is a link that reviews the game and gives some idea of the system:

http://www.gmtgames.com/p-75-the-rise-of-the-luftwaffe.aspx

http://www.gmtgames.com/dfze/zero_main.html

http://www.gmtgames.com/dfch/main.html

http://www.gmtgames.com/df8a/gmtdf8a0.htm


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## krieghund (Aug 31, 2011)

Yes AH's Luftwaffe was very cumbersome but gave the feel of strategically attacking or defending Europe from air attack.

For the beer and pretzels rainy afternoon probably the best tactical air war game is Mustangs which give a quick feel for WWII aerial combat..


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## kettbo (Aug 31, 2011)

The locals here Seattle-Tacoma made MUSTANGS into a miniatures game called Air Pirates. This had a huge following on Yahoo/Groups/Air Pirates
Good game system though not perfect.
Things slowed down, flavor of the months is CY6.
Yes, FoxBat and Phantom....Red Star-White Star ground war game, BISMARK and Midway.
Still make the annual gaming CON in this area Memorial Weekend in late May.

I will have to check out the FIGHTING WINGS

Somewhere I have some revised weapon effect tables For AF-D. The Mk 108 will score on a fighter only 30-50% of the time, target size dependant. Bombers 0-4 hits. 5 and 6 are sometimes misses, sometimes 1 hit. I give this 12 factors for each hit. 50cal get 3 pts ea. 20mm 3x better per USN so 9pts for the 20mm.
P-51B/C 4x3=12
P-51D 6x3=18
Bf-109G-6 2x3 = 6 + 1x9= 15 (think there was a bonus for nose-mounted weapons or a penalty for wing mounted guns.
then there was a table range and skill for variable damage...
get in close, good pilot....planes would go down after a burst!

Have been buying a property, now own it and am getting it ready for some tennants. I will be back here soon.


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## Capt. Vick (Sep 2, 2011)

bobbysocks said:


> then there were the "bookshelf" games. i got the "luftwuffe" game back in the early 70s. looked exciting but was so complex with all the punch out "chits" it was too slow moving and not enough action. that i think we only played it once. its probably still in my mother's attic.



Man I have this game still! Never could figure it out to the point where it kept my interest.

On a side note I made the mistake of explained the board Game "Carrier Strike" to my 4 year old son while on vacation and he practically tortured me daily form that day one to play it. Finally when we got home I broke it out and said "Have at it kid"! Plays his own version of the game nearly every day since. Glad he is having fun with it though. That was a good simple game. Anyone remember it?

Also, though not a sophisticated game, I still love Axis Allies. It moves along nicely in my opinion, but hey I actually liked the movie Pearl Harbor, with all its faults, so I don’t really fit in here anyway! LOL


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## krieghund (Sep 5, 2011)

The best version of Axis Allies is the 50th Anniversary one, I wish I would have bought a couple. AH will not print anymore and ebay sells them for over $300. I have seen bids go well over $700. People have really done them up by painting the pieces.

It can teach some important lessons such as Strategic bombing has it merits. Don't even let me take Iceland because I'll clobber North America for as long I have the resources to do it...this delays America's entry into North Africa and gives the axis time to take it away from the Brits and the middle east oil fields and curb the soviet expansion. If pulled off correctly and a few good rolls of the dice the axis can win the game. After stopping Russia, Britain must be taken. The Japanese are there to keep the US tied up in resources and to kill the Royal Navy in the Indian Ocean and to take India-Burma-China. I added the extra dimension of oil fields into the game to show the impact of losing it and causing the players to use resources to protect it. Also added the I-401 class subs to do airborne attacks on Panama.

I also added the option of scientific tech for the A-bomb....the game usually ends pretty quickly then. 


just too much fun!!


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## Capt. Vick (Sep 6, 2011)

Axis Allies 50th Anniversary? Never heard of that version.


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## krieghund (Sep 9, 2011)

Yes it went pretty quick now you can find it on ebay for over $800 : Axis and Allies Anniversary Edition NEW NIB | eBay


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## kettbo (Nov 10, 2011)

I just borrowed a copy of OVER THE REICH by Clash of Arms.
Rules are now to be those of the later Pacific War version
I understand it is out of print and that a new updated version is expected in the future
Does anyone have any additional information?

I'll be taking a look at this board game's suitability for miniatures


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## DBII (Nov 10, 2011)

My first game was Tactics II, land warfare. Next was AH Luftwuffe and then Squad Leader. In college, it was micro armor. Then I end up doing computer battle simulations for almost 10 years with the army. I never thought I would get paid to play games.


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## Garyt (Apr 19, 2014)

> The locals here Seattle-Tacoma made MUSTANGS into a miniatures game called Air Pirates.



I've seen that, and I like the revisions that were done to it from the AH game to the miniature game. In the AH game they just made the P51 the most maneuverable plane out there, which was a very gross simplification of the capabilities of various aircraft. Although I guess the game was indeed called "Mustangs".

I've worked on some rules of my own based largely upon the miniature version of the game, but also some real life numbers of the different planes various abilities. If you keep speed and energy up with late era WW2 US planes you should be fine against a Zero - If you start making tight turns and bleed energy you are playing right into the Zero's hands.

I've also looked at some other modifications, for example lowering the accuracy of .303 sized rounds or very low velocity cannon such as the Japanese 99-1 20mm cannon, or the German MK108 Cannon (Although the MK108 inflicts tremedous damage if it is able to score hits).

The other thing I have done is used many of the rules from the Mig Alley Ace game on the same sight - which are primarily Mustangs rules to begin with. Biggest change in the game is using 60 mph bands for velocity and use the 10 impulse chart per Mig Alley.

This means instead of planes groups in velocities of 2, 3, and 4 (level flight) it's broken down a bit further in ranges of about 4-8 for most planes level velocity


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## kettbo (Apr 19, 2014)

Hi Gary,

IN a few of my more recent posts I have mentioned my work on a low level game, LW vs US 9thAF over Northern France mid 44 on.
I am trying to keep things SIMPLE yet make it interesting. Currently I have the Bf109G-6/U2 (w/MW50) vs P-47 Razorbacks. I have scads of Bf109s painted but only get 'some' to face 16x P-47s being painted. I was going to use my painted hex mats but think it is best to use open terrain and turn radii. I looked at the Tony Williams weapons effectiveness page, borrowed from there. Lots more work to do.

The phased movement is good but it makes for a slow game


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## Garyt (Apr 22, 2014)

Kettbo, I would not go entirely by that weapons effectiveness page. 

The problems with strictly mathematical problems like this is they only take into account strictly kinetic energy, or in Williams formula momentum.

What is not taken into account is a .303 bullet injuring or killing a pilot, gas tanks flaming up, etc. etc.

The chances of things like this happening aqree to some degree relative to kinetic energy, but not directly proportional. I have not looked at it in enough depth, but perhaps something to the effect of using the square root of the kinetic energy released.

And for exploding shells, you need to use the KE released by the burst, and also the Gurney equation for fragments. Again, this gives you straight kinetic energy, perhaps the square root of this is more accurate as to be relative to damage caused.


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## parsifal (Apr 23, 2014)

Not familiar with this system, so apologies if im completely wide of the mark. but in certain naval games that i have played you roll for critical hits....sort of collateral damage that each hit goes beyond what the science would otherwise predict. you might get a Hood style hit in a magazine, or a Taiho rupture of the fuel tanks, that in turn leads to fatal damage to therest of the ship. Its dealt with generically by a critical hit roll...each hit generates a low probability of additional damage. I dont see why you couldnt have something similar in an air combat model. And that means that smaller rifle caliber hits whilst having far less explosive or destructive effect in themselves, might have a better chance of collateral damage because of multiple hits that they achieve. 

The theory is pretty straight forward, but the research to get this right would be enormous, and might in the end simply be reduced to some sort of gusstimate. You might devise a system, punch in your estimated probabilities and then go off and test, and test, and test, against a known historical case or ten, and see if your estimated values produce the result that you are expecting.... if you do, well and good, if not, try revising your figures until you are getting roughly historical results from historical situations...


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## Garyt (Apr 24, 2014)

> but in certain naval games that i have played you roll for critical hits....sort of collateral damage that each hit goes beyond what the science would otherwise predict



The Aerial game "Mustangs" is kind of like that. I must say I like the revised game for miniatures better than the AH game. In this game when a plane is damaged, where depends a lot on what happens. You can get engine fires, wings can be damaged or destroyed, ruptured fuel tanks (yep, the Zeros, Kates and Vals flame up pretty well), injured or killed pilots, and many other types of damage that may also restrict the planes ability to maneuver.


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## kettbo (Apr 25, 2014)

Guys, I appreciate the comments. I want something better that what I played *but* I want things to process quickly. I want people to memorize a few key points so they are not stuck looking at charts all the time. Few dice, few rules and more fun. I'll keep you posted.


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## Garyt (Apr 25, 2014)

> Few dice, few rules and more fun.



I'd go computer sim then LOL. Actually, there are a few types of combat that lend themselves better to computer sim than boardgame - and I think tactical aerial combat is one of these.



> And that means that smaller rifle caliber hits whilst having far less explosive or destructive effect in themselves, might have a better chance of collateral damage because of multiple hits that they achieve


. 

Just noticed this. Remember, a shell casing that bursts from a HE charge is getting multiple hits as well - and most likely with a higher "muzzle velocity" due to being re-accelerated due to the explosion, and therefore more kinetic energy, giving it more ability to penetrate the armor around a pilot than a partially spent round would have.


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## kettbo (Apr 25, 2014)

As I mentioned last night, looking to make this simple
For example, a d8 roll yields some assorted damage options, chance of a critical, and minor dings
this is just a very basic start
Instead of having to saw the planes down totally, limiting planes to 2-3 special/critical hits
The different fighters use a various quantities of dice.

*Hit Location d8*
*1* Wing
*2* Wing Double Hit
*3* Fuselage
*4* Fuselage Double Hit
*5* Engine
P-47s ignore first engine hit
1 Still runs, little power
2 Engine destroyed
*6* Special/Critical: 
1 Controls damaged/partial jam slow maneuvering
2 Loss of control, roll against pilot quality for recovery
3 Fuel Fire: 1 small, 2 medium, 3 large 4 moderate fuel leak, 5 severe fuel leak, 6 explosion
4 Weapons hit Random
5 Oil / Coolant hit, slow death
6 Pilot
a.1-3 light wound
b. 4 moderate wound
c 5 severe wound, land, belly land, or bail out NOW
d 6 fatal/mortal
*7* Minimal damage, war stories of taking hits
*8* moderate cosmetic damage, as above but repairs may take longer.

EDIT) some formatting challenges here, sorry!

I was moving the LR furniture around, preparing to install baseboards. I was possessed, got out few of the game mats and planes


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## Garyt (Apr 25, 2014)

Here is some info on taking damage from the "Mustangs" game I had mentioned - It's interesting on how it handles self sealing fuel tanks, pilot armor, inline vs. radial engines, etc.


MUSTANGS - AIR-PIRATES



> 13b3)	EFFECTS OF SPECIFIC HITS: Different types and/or numbers of hits can have dif¬ferent effects on air units.
> 
> 13b3.l AIR UNIT ELIMINATION: If the num¬ber of hits of a specific type equals or exceeds the number of boxes shown for that type, an air unit is eliminated. For example, an air unit with two or more engine hits, three wing hits or four fuselage hits is eliminated.
> 
> ...


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## scruffywunder (Sep 12, 2014)

Wings of Glory is another really good miniature air battle game. There is a world war 1 version as well as world war 2.


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## kettbo (Sep 18, 2014)

thanks Scruffy!

A brief progress report may be in order here...
The shell/basic outline of my little game evolves, blows up, recovers, gets neglected, then I get back to it. 
FOR EYE_APPEAL, I want a lot of miniatures on the game mat, so some of the detail has to yield to speed the flow of the game. I also want the battles resolved quickly so that there can be several battles in an afternoon. Each side gets an AREA map. I got this roll of paper, like gift wrapping, brown with thin blue hex lines. Towns, main roads, bridges/basic stuff will be marked. Random roll for US for missions. The German leader will have missions too as well as on-call events. As a campaign could develop, more info gets onto the map. Most gaming, the scenario calls for US: Bomb Bridge at XD123456 LW: Defend bridge at XD123456 which is a crock of poo. LW will have to react from ground spotter reports. Contact may not result. Other plans may enter the area but generally I'm looking for a US Group vs an LW Staffel for starters and a US FW vs an LW Gruppe when I get more experience. 4-planes=1 counter on the AREA map. The LW players better husband their resources as supplies/spare parts/new aircraft/fuel are not getting through all that well. Meanwhile, expect each US Sqdn to be full-up at 16 planes daily.

Once there has been a spotting (variable by weather/light), play reverts to game mats. Then miniatures are used. Spotting rolls continue but one side may still get a bounce in. 
The way that I am heading now is a marked DECREASE in detailed aircraft performances differences and an INCREASE in pilot ability/experience determining actions or success. I also have some skill progression charts, replacement quality charts (not very good for the Germans unless they get a pilot coming off instructor duties or returning after wound recovery). The 9th AF Thunderbolt pilots, few aces, but overall good pilots. Occasionally they have a well-trained replacement lacking in real combat skills. So you need skill rolls to get into firing position. Combats are BOUNCE, DOGFIGHT, BOMBER ATTACK. The firepower and damage models are fairly aircraft-specific. I've looked around as in a few posts above, looked at other games, thrown this all into the pot and have boiled this down many times. What I keep getting is 2x .50 cal/13mm =1 pt 1 x 20mm=2pt so 
Bf109G-4 =2 (2x7.9mm deck guns nearly worthless)
Bf109G-6 =3
Bf109G-6/R6 =7 ( 2x2pt gun pods)
Bf109G/U4 =7* (nose 30mm cannon)
the 30mm mk108 is bothersome to calculate so there is variable damage.
P-51B/C =2
P-51D =3
P-47D =4
P-38 =4

You add the firepower to a die roll if the shooter, add your DEF value if you are the defender to your die roll, consult a damage chart. Some shifting around for pilot skill, BOUNCE or DOGFIGHT, etc.

lots more to work out
must figure out the correct amount of AAA for LW and US advanced air fields. The locations will no doubt become known

I am also busy with a 1/285 scale sculpt of an F-105 F or G.


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