# Lancaster wing?



## paul s. (Oct 29, 2021)

New here. Can someone please help in identifying which RAF aircraft this wing belongs to. Picture taken day after it was shot down near my current home in Germany. Differing reports on what it was.


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## fubar57 (Oct 29, 2021)

Do you have a date?


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## paul s. (Oct 29, 2021)

fubar57 said:


> Do you have a date?


reports state 23/24 1942. location: anrath. Lancaster but photos state it happened night to 1.august. need a positive ID on wing/aircraft type

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## Wurger (Oct 29, 2021)

Accident Avro Lancaster Mk I R5867, 24 Jul 1942


The aircraft was shot down by anti-aircraft fire near Krefeld, which is where the crew were initially buried. The claim was made by two flak batteries: 3rd of the 394 Heavy Flak Battalio...



aviation-safety.net

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## paul s. (Oct 29, 2021)

paul s. said:


> reports state 23/24 1942. location: anrath. Lancaster but photos state it happened night to 1.august. need a positive ID on wing/aircraft type


I know thanks, I wrote that info. Since then I got the original photos from the farmer's family where it cam down and that said 1 August. Hence my question


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## fubar57 (Oct 29, 2021)

The Luftwaffe made one Lancaster claim for July 25, no location. No claims for Aug. 1


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## fubar57 (Oct 29, 2021)

11 Wellingtons were lost Aug. 1


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## Wurger (Oct 29, 2021)

The wheel would fit better the Wellington than the Lancaster. IIRC the Lanc had there the tyre thread while the Wellington didn't.


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## fubar57 (Oct 29, 2021)

1 Stirling lost Aug. 1


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## Wurger (Oct 29, 2021)

It could be as well.


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 29, 2021)

That does look more like a Wellington landing gear/tire


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## fubar57 (Oct 29, 2021)

The Stiling had a mud flap but the above photo doesn't match the photo I have unless its been twisted around during the crash


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## Wurger (Oct 29, 2021)

Also the Stirling had longer oleos I would say. But the engine nacelles were quite small comparing to other RAF bombers.


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 29, 2021)

Judging from the size of the people in the back ground, I wonder if this plane is a lot smaller than we assumed.


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## fubar57 (Oct 29, 2021)

A crop of the Stirling gear, caption doesn't say which mark its from


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## Wurger (Oct 29, 2021)

I think VB can be right talking about the wheel size. So the Wellington would be more possible.

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## fubar57 (Oct 29, 2021)

I've got locations for 9 of the Wellingtons and pilot names and units


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## Wurger (Oct 29, 2021)

And the Wellington wheel size ...





the source: Letecká badatelna


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## fubar57 (Oct 29, 2021)

Pilot names and units for the Luftwaffe I should have stated


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## Wurger (Oct 29, 2021)

And the Lanc wheel. Please not that there were struts supporting the oleos. In the requested pic a such one isn't noticed although its remnents should have been there.


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## cammerjeff (Oct 29, 2021)

I do not see any signs of Geodetic construction? I would think that a Wellington in that condition would show signs of the fabric covering and Geodetic frame?

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## Wurger (Oct 29, 2021)

Also true. However the Wellington wing leaging edge was covered with a plate. So the geodetic structure may not be seen if the fabric wasn't torn. The pic quality and angle the image was taken with makes the ID almost impossible IMHO. The wheel is the key I would say. Although the oleo shape may indicate the Wellington , the mount of the wheel axle to it reminds the Lancaster one though.


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## nuuumannn (Oct 29, 2021)

My first thought was Halifax based on the casing aft of the oleo, the Hali had that big alloy casing, which surrounded the oleos inside. There aren't too many images of Halis without it, but I found one of a B.V with the casing removed showing the bare oleos and I've seen images of Halis under construction without the casing fitted. The curved hoop aft of the leg looks suspiciously like the wheel guard attached to the lower oleo at the hub, although not all Halis had them and I suspect they were removed.

It is difficult to see what's going on here, there's the two openings for the nacelles, which rule out Wellington for a start, and the fact that the Wellington's wing was fabric covered and there's no sign of geodetic structure or torn fabric anywhere, but there's something folded over in the foreground, the outboard nacelle?


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## Airframes (Oct 29, 2021)

The shape and size of the landing gear casing certainly suggest a Halifax, as does the visible airfoil of the remaining wing sections.


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## Wurger (Oct 29, 2021)

Very likely guys.


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## special ed (Oct 29, 2021)

The Sterling tire always looked to me as oversize for the diameter of the hub, therefore my guess is Sterling. However, if no Sterling was lost that date or that location, then I'm wrong.


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## fubar57 (Oct 29, 2021)

Imma thinking Stirling as well. One loss on that date

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## nuuumannn (Oct 29, 2021)

I'm not convinced by the Stirling to be frank, the absense of struttery puts paid to it. There's simply not the amount of leg there to be Stirling. The Stirling's entire undercarriage was mounted on a massive cradle to increase the wings' angle of incidence and this is completely missing in this image, which, even in this state it wouldn't be considering it was attached to the wing and folded upwards into the nacelle.

There's also intakes on the Stirling's wing leading edge between the nacelles and these are missing in the photo. I don't think it's a Stirling.


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## special ed (Oct 29, 2021)

Sterling L/G from the internet


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## ThomasP (Oct 30, 2021)

The type of gear looks like Messier to me, which was one type used on the Halifax. The distinctive feature of the Halifax Messier gear was a large magnesium alloy casting for the main yoke/strut with the compression oleo cylinders sunk into a pocket in ends of the casting. It looks to me that the casting has fractured in 2 places, near the top, and around the oleo pocket - allowing the oleo to sit at an odd angle. Could be wrong.

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## nuuumannn (Oct 30, 2021)

Been doing a bit of digging and have come up with this, as the more I look into this, the more I'm convinced it is a Halifax. The picture posted by Thomas above certainly helps. I believe it's an inverted Halifax centre section.




Crashed Bomber

I hope the original poster has no objection to me doing this. If you do, let me know and I'll delete it.

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## vikingBerserker (Oct 30, 2021)

I think you are correct. I would add to your points the distance between the bottom of the fuselage and the wing roots matches the Halifax but does not match a Lancaster.

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## paul s. (Oct 30, 2021)

OK this may help. here are three more pics ( that is all there is at the moment) of the same aircraft. two of the other wing section and then the cockpit resting on the right side with the bomb bay showing. Reports and dates differ by a week and may well be inaccurate so I can only establish what came down when and where by identifying the plane.
Location is beyond doubt but the person who took the pictures may have gotten the date wrong.

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## paul s. (Oct 30, 2021)

nuuumannn said:


> Been doing a bit of digging and have come up with this, as the more I look into this, the more I'm convinced it is a Halifax. The picture posted by Thomas above certainly helps. I believe it's an inverted Halifax centre section.
> 
> View attachment 646484
> Crashed Bomber
> ...



No, no issue with that. just trying to solve this riddle. If the date on the original photo is correct (1. august 1942) and it is indeed a Halifax we're looking at here then it must be 
W1109 LQ-S a Halifax2 shot down after a raid on Düsseldorf but wrongly reported regarding its crash site.

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## fubar57 (Oct 30, 2021)

What is the location of the crash? These are the ones I have on the Wellingtons....
20km S. Monchengladbach
2km S. Berg
2km SW. Oploo
SE of Tolz/1km SW. Loop-op-Zand
Huldenberg
3km SE. Helden N Stokkem
12km SW. Venlo
1km SW. Ahlhom
18km S. Weert


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## paul s. (Oct 30, 2021)

It is definitely not a wellington. It is either a lancaster or a Halifax.

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## fubar57 (Oct 30, 2021)

Dang....missed a bunch of posts when I "Marked forums read". One Halifax lost Aug. 1. No location, shot down by Oblt. Heinrich zu Sayn-Wittgenstien of NJG.2


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## Wurger (Oct 30, 2021)

paul s. said:


> It is definitely not a wellington. It is either a lancaster or a Halifax.




IMHO the enlarged shot of the wheel shows that it was the Halifax. The alloy casing of the Halifax oleos can be seen.

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## nuuumannn (Oct 30, 2021)

paul s. said:


> No, no issue with that. just trying to solve this riddle. If the date on the original photo is correct (1. august 1942) and it is indeed a Halifax we're looking at here then it must be
> W1109 LQ-S a Halifax2 shot down after a raid on Düsseldorf but wrongly reported regarding its crash site.



Thanks Paul, Those other pics don't help all that much except the one of the wing, that's more like a Halifax aileron in that the trim tab protrudes beyond the trailing edge and the location is at the inboard end of the aileron, whereas the Lancaster's was set toward the aileron's mid point. I'd ignore the slight taper in the aileron toward the camera, that's damage received from the impact. The panel lines also don't match those on a Lancaster's wing underside. Lancasters had a teardrop fairing outboard of both engine nacelles, which is missing from the image.




DSC_5669

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## paul s. (Oct 31, 2021)

thanks for all this chaps, i also believe it's a halifax. it confirms what an old guy told me who was there when he was a kid.

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## Airframes (Oct 31, 2021)

Definitely a Halifax. In the first image in the original post, what appears to be one of the doors for the wing root bomb cells is clearly visible also.
The unique undercart casting, the shape and "thickness" of the wing airfoil, the aileron or flap, and the "slab-sided" fuselage section all point to a Halifax.


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## paul s. (Oct 31, 2021)

Cheers, much obliged.


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## special ed (Oct 31, 2021)

My father, a product of growing up in the 1930s Kansas, always said 'much obliged' rather than thank you. Thanks for the reminder of my dad.

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## nuuumannn (Oct 31, 2021)

paul s. said:


> Cheers, much obliged.



Good luck with your research, Paul.


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## paul s. (Nov 1, 2021)

Thank you, and you're very welcome. I'm trying to help someone in Canada whose great uncle was 2nd pilot on a Lancaster which was supposed to have crashed in this spot near where I now live in Germany. It was, in fact a Halifax 2 W1109 LQ -S which crashed 1 August 1942 a week after the Lancaster i am trying to locate. Which now still remains a mystery. best, Paul

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## fubar57 (Nov 1, 2021)

Have you been to this site Paul? Aircraft Loss Cards – Bomber Command History


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## JDCAVE (Nov 1, 2021)

Others have ascertained the photo shows a Halifax and I defer to their judgement. I think a bigger issue is the provenance of the photo and the uncertainty as to the correct date of the photo as well as the exact location of the crash site. Delving into the records as to whether there were survivors from the crash would be helpful. I might suggest contacting Theo Boiten or Rod MacKenzie (Nactjagd War Diaries). They may be able to provide a possible identification of the aircraft. They have updated their books to include details on claims from flak batteries.

Jim


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## paul s. (Nov 1, 2021)

JDCAVE said:


> Others have ascertained the photo shows a Halifax and I defer to their judgement. I think a bigger issue is the provenance of the photo and the uncertainty as to the correct date of the photo as well as the exact location of the crash site. Delving into the records as to whether there were survivors from the crash would be helpful. I might suggest contacting Theo Boiten or Rod MacKenzie (Nactjagd War Diaries). They may be able to provide a possible identification of the aircraft. They have updated their books to include details on claims from flak batteries.
> 
> Jim


Thnank you for your suggestions. I'm already getting touch with T Boiten. If there is one thing I am sure about it is the origin of the photos, the date and the location, so iam taking things from there.


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