# Fw187 could have been German P-38?



## wiking85 (Jan 12, 2015)

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/fw-187-german-51-a-38757.html?highlight=
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/av...-ground-attack-aircraft-40741.html?highlight=

I've sort of broached this comparison before with other aircraft, but the more I read about the P-38 it seems that the Fw187 would have been much more like the P-38 in just about every way. They were very similar in dimensions, but the P-38 ended up being much heavier, though the developed Fw187 probably would have been just as heavy as time went on. What are your thoughts on the comparison?


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## bobbysocks (Jan 12, 2015)

in what role? bomber escort or as a bomber itself. i was going to suggest it might phase out the 110 but i see you already did that discussion before. i think the engines could have been better used scrapping TE ac and making more SE fighters.


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## wiking85 (Jan 12, 2015)

bobbysocks said:


> in what role? bomber escort or as a bomber itself. i was going to suggest it might phase out the 110 but i see you already did that discussion before. i think the engines could have been better used scrapping TE ac and making more SE fighters.



Both in fact. The only thing it couldn't do well was be a night fighter without cavity magnetron centimetric radar. 
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/bmw-801-build-fighter-34155.html


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## GregP (Jan 12, 2015)

The P-38 was a standout twin-engine fighter with a good war record. It was the twin-engined fighter with the best war record for air-to-air combat and was adpated to VERY many roles successfully. Fewer perhaps than the Mosquito, but a good many.

The Fw 187 wasn't selected for production by the Luftwaffe. They had their reasons, but it was an also-ran as far as the German staff was concerned.

I would not predict it would jump from being not-selected-for-service to being comparable with one of the top twin-engin fighters ever built. Could it have been good? Probably, but maybe not. It depends on what weakness all the "Fw 187 promoterb" are ignoring. Some of these may not be overly written about in print, but the test pilots who flew it are probably WELL aware of them ... if it HAD weaknesses, that is. 

Maybe it COULD and WOULD have been one of the best, but it wasn't selected for production.

I daresay there are a good many opther potentially good-to-great planes out there that were also not selected for production. I wonder why they don't get the same amount of attention in this regard as the Fw 187 that was virtually ignored by the German high command.

Focke-Wulf DID produce the Ta 152, if you can call about 43 aircraft production (I don't). Potentially it was a winner and maybe one of the best ever built. In fact, it had a very mediocre war record with not many victories against a few losses, VERY mediocre. In my mind, the issue with the Ta 152 was NOT the performance potential or the quality of the pilots. The issue was the fact that it was a NEW aircraft, without spares in the system, being flown into battle by pilots largely untrained on it, being maintained by mechanics also untrained on it, at a time when small numbers of German aircraft were going up against very large numbers of Allied fighters and bombers. In other words, the actual war record of the Ta 152 was a product of the was situation in early 1945 from the German side coupled with a new plane having no spare parts coming down the pike, low fuel avialbility, few pilots, and a LOT of Allied planes overhead all the time. It is NOTHING against the Ta 152, it is a product of the real war situation.

I fail to see how the same fate would not await the Fw 187, had it been produced. It might have been thrown into the fray earlier than the Ta 152 when the German was situation ws MUCH better, and that might make the difference that would push the Fw 187 over the hump of a bad war situation, I can't say. What I CAN say is that the Fw 187 with DB engines, should have performed better than the Bf 110, He 219, Me 410, or the He 335. Whether or not it could have DONE anything with this better potential is another discussion that runs into fantasy of imagination. In THAT theater of operations, anything is possible. In the real world, reality takes over and things are not so simple. 

Had the Germans introduced the Fw 187 as a fighter as soon as possible, who is to say the Allies would not have come up with an equally impressive response and so would have been ready for it? I can't say and neither can anyone else out there who isn't pushing 90 years old. The WWII vets KNOW when the tide of war turned in their mind's eye and might have a few things to say about it.


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## wiking85 (Jan 12, 2015)

Greg we've discussed this topic many times on the subject and I agree with what you've written here, I was just curious if it would have stacked up in terms of potential to the P-38 as they were so similar in role and size. Both were not well suited for night fighting, but were otherwise seemingly cousins in terms of roles and potential. Of course we will never know, I was just curious if the Fw187 could have done all that the P-38 did just on the other side of the hill.


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## GregP (Jan 12, 2015)

I think the actual airframe performance may have been quite similar, maybe with the Fw 187 having an edge in places, maybe not. Without a detainled look at it, flinging an opinion from the cuff is fraught with a slap in the face. But it certainly would have been a better FIGHTER than the Bf 110. I daresay it could probably have held its own against some single-seaters and maybe have outrun some of them.

The question in my mind is WHEN the Fw 187 production version could have been available in numbers comparable to the Bf 110, with a supply chain in place, trained mechanics in place, and suitable pilots in the cockpits. I'm SURE it could have been a good thing for the Luftwaffe, just NOT sure of what they could have done with it or even if they would have done anything offensive with it at all. They didn't seem to be much inclined to take the offensive after the Battle of Britain, which happened WELL before any volume of Fw 187's could have been deployed. So what could have been the effect?

What would make them break out the tactics they used historically? I don't know, but an air arm made up of the Bf 109, Fw 190, and Fw 187 would have been formidable, assuming everything else was as it was. That part of the assumption is not necessarily true ... had the Fw 187 been a production reality, the Allies would have addressed it specifically, at least in my mind they would have.

I'm sort of caught here. I LIKE the Ta 152 a lot but it didn't perform well when it counted and had the chance to do so. I LIKE the Fw 187, but have no idea how it would have stacked up in the real world of wartime operations. I don't KNOW the true operational issues the prototypes suffered, if any ... but, if it didn't, why did they waffle around so much with engines and cooling systems? 

So I'm caught in a sort of mental tug of war. The Germans HAD great equipment, they HAD a technologial advantage, they HAD surprise in many cases, and they achieved great initital success. But they had no plan at all to fight a protracted war, no pilot-training plan of any consequence, and very poor leadership. The actual troops themselves were as good or better than any others in the world. But the German high command would sacrifice them in large numbers just to say, "hold at any cost, down to the last man!" And they did just that on occasion. What country can survive poor leadership, poor training for replacements, and a six-year war ... all at the very same time?

No country in history has done so yet. They can survive a short war, but a long one needs good leadership that the high command will listen to. Hitler wasn't very good at listening, even to sound advice from experienced battlefield commanders. A man less capable than Hermann Goering of planning and exceuting a world-class Luftwaffe can hardly be imagined. The results are farily predictable. 

Had they listened to Erhard Milch instead of what really happened, we all might be speaking German ...


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## tomo pauk (Jan 13, 2015)

The Fw-187 have had the necessities to be a fine heavy/LR fighter, with engines better than Jumo 210, of course. Unlike the P-38, it was a 'classic twin', that saves plenty of weight and production time. Instead of second crew member, one can envision a more comfortable space for the single crew member. Don't know the wing profile thickness, does not seem it was a thick one (feedback is welcomed). 
Compared to the Whirlwind, it was not of a prohibitively small size (wing area 30.6 sq m vs. 23.2; the P-38 was at 30.43), so installation of engines heavier than Jumo 210 was feasible, and it was undertaken. Compared to the Bf-110/210/Beaufighter, it was much smaller, hence the performance on same power was bound to be greater. The 110/210 should make better NFs, though. The historical Fw-187 on Jumo 210 was as fast as the Bf-110 on DB-601A engines, or the Hurricane I.

As alternative power-plants for the Fw-187 we might include the HS-12Y engines (erstwhile the ones produced in Czechoslovakia, then the French ones) - 850-1000 HP at altitude vs. ~650 for the Jumo 210; the Jumo 211; the G&R 14N. Plus the obvious DB-601/605 series.


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## wiking85 (Jan 13, 2015)

GregP said:


> Had they listened to Erhard Milch instead of what really happened, we all might be speaking German ...



Or the classic what if: Walter Wever living past 1936. He wanted the Fw187 along with Richthofen, its original proponent, but died and Richthofen left the development department thereafter. Wever was the man that built the LW, Goering the man then that ran it into the ground.


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## wiking85 (Jan 13, 2015)

tomo pauk said:


> The Fw-187 have had the necessities to be a fine heavy/LR fighter, with engines better than Jumo 210, of course. Unlike the P-38, it was a 'classic twin', that saves plenty of weight and production time. Instead of second crew member, one can envision a more comfortable space for the single crew member. Don't know the wing profile thickness, does not seem it was a thick one (feedback is welcomed).
> Compared to the Whirlwind, it was not of a prohibitively small size (wing area 30.6 sq m vs. 23.2; the P-38 was at 30.43), so installation of engines heavier than Jumo 210 was feasible, and it was undertaken. Compared to the Bf-110/210/Beaufighter, it was much smaller, hence the performance on same power was bound to be greater. The 110/210 should make better NFs, though. The historical Fw-187 on Jumo 210 was as fast as the Bf-110 on DB-601A engines, or the Hurricane I.
> 
> As alternative power-plants for the Fw-187 we might include the HS-12Y engines (erstwhile the ones produced in Czechoslovakia, then the French ones) - 850-1000 HP at altitude vs. ~650 for the Jumo 210; the Jumo 211; the G&R 14N. Plus the obvious DB-601/605 series.



So basically it had the features and 'stretch' to be a P-38 if actually adopted?


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## GregP (Jan 13, 2015)

It seems to have all the requirements to be versatile and they DID fit DB6xx engines to it, so it COULD have been built around the DB 605 at some point. I believe it had the making of a fine fighter.

I wonder why the Luftwaffe didn't think it was worth development? They developed myriad other useless planes, so why not one that could do the job?


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## wiking85 (Jan 13, 2015)

GregP said:


> It seems to have all the requirements to be versatile and they DID fit DB6xx engines to it, so it COULD have been built around the DB 605 at some point. I believe it had the making of a fine fighter.
> 
> I wonder why the Luftwaffe didn't think it was worth development? They developed myriad other useless planes, so why not one that could do the job?



Doctrine. Goering pushed the Bf110 for the role and Wever tried pushing back along with Richthofen, but upon Wever's death and Richthofen leaving the development department all support for the Fw187 ended and Goering stacked the LW with his stooges, especially the Technical Branch, side lining Milch in the process, and elevating Ernst Udet to overall decision maker in terms of aircraft production and development, which really meant Goering's will be done when he said so. So the Bf110 was firmly chosen and the Fw187 became Kurt Tanks passion project that never was. It was a critical missed opportunity, but given the repeated **** ups of the LW after Wever's death its just one of many (Me210 fiasco, He177 problems, the Ta-154 waste, the Ju288 debacle, etc.).


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## tomo pauk (Jan 13, 2015)

wiking85 said:


> So basically it had the features and 'stretch' to be a P-38 if actually adopted?



I believe so.


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## Shortround6 (Jan 13, 2015)

The P-38 had the fortune to go into service 1 1/2 -2 years _after_ the FW 187 would have gone into service if it was to have any real chance of success. 

This allowed service versions to go into action with pretty much a working weapons system, working engines (although still needing _some_ work) and such. 

A 1940 Fw 187 has some severe problems with it's weapons system/s. A 1941 FW 187 may have a number of the problems solved and 1942 version may have all the problems solved, but are the Germans going to tool up for the Fw 187 in 1941 to have them in numbers in 1942? 

A 1940 single seat FW 187 has two more 7.9mm Mgs than a 109E and *no* more ammo per gun. A rather severe limitation for an escort fighter or deep penetration fighter. You also have the radio problem. German radios for the single seat fighters were crap in 1940 (in part because some of the Spanish veterans didn't believe they needed radios of any sort) and long range escort fighters that _cannot_ talk to either their base _or_ the bomber formation/s they are supposed to escort are in rather deep fertilizer. 

Now perhaps the Germans could have rigged bigger drums on the cannon or some other solution. (a 1940 or early 41 P-38 would have had some serious gun problems too) but this is where we also wind up with the Fw 187 discussions. We not only have a plane that was _never_ flown in the configuration people are calling for, they also want to arm it with guns from a different time. Early availability of the MG 151 and/or MG 131s would have made a single seat FW 187 a much more viable project in 1939/40 but the guns were not ready.

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## tomo pauk (Jan 13, 2015)

The Fw-187 would be a fully viable LR fighter with 8x MG 17s, 500-600 rpg. Even the historical Fw 187, with 4 LMGs and two cannons, was in better shape (armament-wise) than Bf 109 once the cannon ammo is gone. The radio installed in the Bf-109 was the least of it's problems. 
Germans need to tool up for the Fw 187 if they want a viable LR fighter in 1940.


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## wiking85 (Jan 13, 2015)

tomo pauk said:


> The Fw-187 would be a fully viable LR fighter with 8x MG 17s, 500-600 rpg. Even the historical Fw 187, with 4 LMGs and two cannons, was in better shape (armament-wise) than Bf 109 once the cannon ammo is gone. The radio installed in the Bf-109 was the least of it's problems.
> Germans need to tool up for the Fw 187 if they want a viable LR fighter in 1940.



It had the same armament as the BF110C of 1940-41. The Bf110 could reload its 20mm FF drum mags though in flight, which the Fw187 could not. The 1942 version supposedly had a bigger fuselage for more fuel and room for the pilot, which when coupled with the later MGs/MKs were extremely potent. For 1940 it would have had a mighty punch though.
Messerschmitt Bf 110 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Guns:
> 2 × 20 mm MG FF/M cannons (180 rpg - 3 drums with 60 rpg, cannon were reloaded by rear gunner or radio operator during flight)
> 4 × 7.92 mm (.312 in) MG 17 machine guns (1,000 rpg)
> 1 × 7.92 mm (.312 in) MG 15 machine gun for defence



Focke-Wulf Fw 187 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> 4 × 7.92 mm (.312 in) MG 17 machine guns in fuselage sides
> 2 × 20 mm MG FF cannon in lower fuselage



Messerschmitt Bf 109 â€“ Wikipedia


> Bf 109 E-7
> 2 x 7.92 mm, 2 x 20 mm


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## Shortround6 (Jan 13, 2015)

The radio may not have been a big problem for the 109 but if you are planing to penetrate enemy air space by another several hundred kilometers beyond what the 109 could do the radio/s become increasingly important. 
Four 7.9 mgs are certainly better than two but the often lambasted 110 carried 3 times the 20mm ammo per gun, at the cost of a second crewman. But then that is what the 2nd crewman in the first 400 Beaufighters did, change drums on the cannon, except he had four cannon to try to keep running (often an impossible task).


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## l'Omnivore Sobriquet (Jan 13, 2015)

Ah I'm glad another thread on the Fw-187 appearing...

Great aircraft certainly.
A bit of a sport kite, granturissmo if you preffer, I love it.

For those many what-if options concerning this Ferrari, I would bend for the early '43 viermot schützer, with just what it takes of overall armour, to keep the chivalrous teutonic flyer confident until etwas mid-range into the American boxes.., one single [brand new] Mk-103 under belly for efficiency along with a pair of 20mils in the wing roots (out of propellers rings), with ample munitions, a little wing aera increase and the latest Daimler 605s.
A good compromise .
And most welcome for the Lufwaff's busy year.
Could even compete with high-flying Thunderbolts escorts in Italy.

I'm not fond of what-if Fw-187 early 1940 things, because I think in that time the Zestörer concept (Bf-110) had to have its show. The sport-kite 187 was by then too... selfish.

But by mid-42, especially with the Me-210 industrial accident, there had to be an opportunity for men of decision...


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## wiking85 (Jan 13, 2015)

l'Omnivore Sobriquet said:


> Ah I'm glad another thread on the Fw-187 appearing...
> 
> Great aircraft certainly.
> A bit of a sport kite, granturissmo if you preffer, I love it.
> ...


In terms of the Me210, not having that would save some 2000 aircraft, not to mention economies of scale and efficiency by not having to switch over to a new type in 1941, so from 1939 when they would enter production to the end of the war there would not be a major type disruption in that category.

Now as to the 1940 version the radio made no difference historically AFAIK. But in terms of ground attacks the lack of 20mm ammo relative to the Bf110 would be an issue, however a bomb rack equipped version would be pretty damn good at dive bombing and delivering pretty serious ordnance on to targets (IIRC being able to carry 6x 250kg bombs with the DB605, but probably even 4x 250kg bombs with the Db601).


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## tomo pauk (Jan 13, 2015)

The P-38F -G were able to take off a 2x2000 lbs worth of extra fuel under the wings, or two 2000 lb torpedoes; 2x1325 HP for take off. The Fw-187 with Jumo 211F/J, or DB-601E/605A should be able to equal that payload. Such aircraft itself would've weighted less than P-38F/G/H.


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## GregP (Jan 13, 2015)

True, Tomo, but we also don't know if the size and wing area would have changed when the Fw 187 gained the inevitable weight and went from Ferrari prototype to production workhorse with bigger, heavier engines and armament.

If it HAD gotten bigger, I feel it STILL would have been better than the 110, but I don't know by how much. One things I am sure of, the speed would NOT have been as good as the prototypes once in production ... it never is once everything is added and the producion fit finish are present, but it could sure start from a good point!


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## wiking85 (Jan 13, 2015)

tomo pauk said:


> The P-38F -G were able to take off a 2x2000 lbs worth of extra fuel under the wings, or two 2000 lb torpedoes; 2x1325 HP for take off. The Fw-187 with Jumo 211F/J, or DB-601E/605A should be able to equal that payload. Such aircraft itself would've weighted less than P-38F/G/H.



Wouldn't that require some structural strengthening?


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## wiking85 (Jan 13, 2015)

GregP said:


> True, Tomo, but we also don't know if the size and wing area would have changed when the Fw 187 gained the inevitable weight and went from Ferrari prototype to production workhorse with bigger, heavier engines and armament.
> 
> If it HAD gotten bigger, I feel it STILL would have been better than the 110, but I don't know by how much. One things I am sure of, the speed would NOT have been as good as the prototypes once in production ... it never is once everything is added and the producion fit finish are present, but it could sure start from a good point!



The A-0 series was the pre-production one, not prototype, so its weight was pretty indicative of what it would have weighed (and that was with a second crew member and lengthened fuselage, but lighter engines). 
Focke-Wulf Fw 187 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Empty weight: 3,700 kg (8,157 lb)
> Loaded weight: 5,000 kg (11,023 lb)


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 13, 2015)

l'Omnivore Sobriquet said:


> But by mid-42, especially with the* Me-210 industrial accident*, there had to be an opportunity for men of decision...


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## tomo pauk (Jan 14, 2015)

GregP said:


> True, Tomo, but we also don't know if the size and wing area would have changed when the Fw 187 gained the inevitable weight and went from Ferrari prototype to production workhorse with bigger, heavier engines and armament.
> 
> If it HAD gotten bigger, I feel it STILL would have been better than the 110, but I don't know by how much. One things I am sure of, the speed would NOT have been as good as the prototypes once in production ... it never is once everything is added and the producion fit finish are present, but it could sure start from a good point!



Wing area size was fine as it was in the Juno-outfitted examples; just a bit greater than the P-38.
The Fw-187 saved from the start, vs. the P-38, maybe 500-700 lbs for not being a twin boom aircraft, and 500-600 lbs by not having turbos, 150 lbs by not having tricycle U/C etc. 1200-1500 lbs is quite a bit of dead weight in a ww2 fighter, even if it has two engines.



wiking85 said:


> Wouldn't that require some structural strengthening?



Probably, but not too much for the external carriage. The P-38 went from no drop tanks to 2X300 gal ones (~4000 lbs), while the wing's weight remained almost the same.

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## Shortround6 (Jan 14, 2015)

wiking85 said:


> Now as to the 1940 version the radio made no difference historically AFAIK. But in terms of ground attacks the lack of 20mm ammo relative to the Bf110 would be an issue, however a bomb rack equipped version would be pretty damn good at dive bombing and delivering pretty serious ordnance on to targets (IIRC being able to carry 6x 250kg bombs with the DB605, but probably even 4x 250kg bombs with the Db601).



The 110s had the long range radio. 

as far as bomb load goes. 
Bf 110 C-4/B---Fighter-bomber based on C-4, fitted with a pair of 250 kg (550 lb) ETC 250 bomb racks and upgraded DB 601 Ba engines.
Bf 110 C-7-Fighter-bomber based on C-4/B, two ETC-500 centerline bomb racks capable of carrying two 500 kg (1,100 lb) bombs, uprated DB 601P engines.

Bf 110 had about 26% more wing area than the Fw 187. Hurts speed but helps with load lifting. 
When hauling bombs _outside_ the number of bombs is as (or more) important than weight. Four 250 KG bombs will have more drag than two 500kg bombs. 
Some later 110s used drop tanks on the wing and up to two 500kg bombs under fuselage.


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## dedalos (Jan 14, 2015)

Shortround6 said:


> The radio may not have been a big problem for the 109 but if you are planing to penetrate enemy air space by another several hundred kilometers beyond what the 109 could do the radio/s become increasingly important.
> Four 7.9 mgs are certainly better than two but the often lambasted 110 carried 3 times the 20mm ammo per gun, at the cost of a second crewman. But then that is what the 2nd crewman in the first 400 Beaufighters did, change drums on the cannon, except he had four cannon to try to keep running (often an impossible task).



What s the benefit of heavy armament if the aircraft does not have the performance or agility to use it?
How useful was for the Bf110 the ability to reload the cannons since the aircraft could not get in firing position against a spitfire?( At least during a classical dogfight)
The Fw187 would have been extremely valuable durig BoB even with the short range radio. He would fight where the Bf109 fought for much longer time plus would reduce pilot loses because of the 2 engines safety


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## dedalos (Jan 14, 2015)

May i extend the original question to inclunde this Machine? the Ta 154C4 sinlge Seat fighter. It should be very competitive with late P38s , altough the tricycle landing gear was Extra weight


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## wiking85 (Jan 14, 2015)

dedalos said:


> View attachment 282059
> 
> May i extend the original question to inclunde this Machine? the Ta 154C4 sinlge Seat fighter. It should be very competitive with late P38s , altough the tricycle landing gear was Extra weight



The only problem was that it never became operational due to structural issues (not just the glue problem). The Fw187 was killed by politics, while the Ta-154 was put into production, but never was able to work out its issues.


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## wiking85 (Jan 14, 2015)

Need help reading a Bf 110 range chart - Axis History Forum
Looking into the range of the Bf110, it would seem it had much shorter legs than I thought. On internal fuel it could only go about 600 miles depending on the altitude and speed used, while with two external drop tanks it could increase that to 1300 miles. From what I've been able to find about the Bf110 with Db601 engines on just internal fuel it could reach around 1000 miles just on internal fuel, increasing that with drop tanks. So it would seem that the Bf110 was not even all that great of a long range aircraft, as the Bf110 was barely able to go further than the Fw190 on internal fuel.


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## GrauGeist (Jan 14, 2015)

wiking85 said:


> The only problem was that it never became operational due to structural issues (not just the glue problem). *The Fw187 was killed by politics*, while the Ta-154 was put into production, but never was able to work out its issues.


It wasn't so much "politics" as it was RLM thinking of the day.

They weren't interested in a long range twin engine fighter. They felt the Bf110 was suitable for the role of "heavy fighter" and while the Fw187 may have peaked interest in this role, it was incapable of mounting defensive armament to the rear.

It was also briefly considered for the role of Nachtjager, but it's cockpit was too confined to mount radr equipment, so it was passed over.

So it was RLM's requirements and way of thinking that kept the Fw187 out of the limelight, not politics.

I also saw it mentioned earlier in the thread that the Fw187 might have been useful if it were developed earlier, when in reality, the Fw187 was being developed earlier than the P-38 and even first flew before the P-38 did...


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## Shortround6 (Jan 14, 2015)

dedalos said:


> What s the benefit of heavy armament if the aircraft does not have the performance or agility to use it?
> How useful was for the Bf110 the ability to reload the cannons since the aircraft could not get in firing position against a spitfire?( At least during a classical dogfight)
> The Fw187 would have been extremely valuable durig BoB even with the short range radio. He would fight where the Bf109 fought for much longer time plus would reduce pilot loses because of the 2 engines safety


Granted the Fw 187 would have been much more valuable than a 110 during the BoB against Spitfires.
Trouble is the Spitfires only make up about 33-40% of the British fighters and if you are flying beyond London (like to Bristol, Manchester or Liverpool) having more than 7 seconds of cannon ammo might be handy.
You also have the problem that the Fw 187 might not be so good at a number of other roles. Shipping strike, shipping protection (Norway convoys), photo recon (where do you stick the cameras without changing the fuel tanks?), ground attack (being able to reload guns in the air?),etc. 
Those or missions that needed doing and were being done by 110s before the night fighter situation even comes up.

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## rogerwilko (Jan 14, 2015)

I'd have thought the Fokker GI Reaper a better comparison with it's twin boom configuration?


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## dedalos (Jan 14, 2015)

t


Shortround6 said:


> Granted the Fw 187 would have been much more valuable than a 110 during the BoB against Spitfires.
> 
> Trouble is the Spitfires only make up about 33-40% of the British fighters and if you are flying beyond London (like to Bristol, Manchester or Liverpool) having more than 7 seconds of cannon ammo might be handy.
> 
> ...


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## wiking85 (Jan 14, 2015)

Shortround6 said:


> Granted the Fw 187 would have been much more valuable than a 110 during the BoB against Spitfires.
> Trouble is the Spitfires only make up about 33-40% of the British fighters and if you are flying beyond London (like to Bristol, Manchester or Liverpool) having more than 7 seconds of cannon ammo might be handy.
> You also have the problem that the Fw 187 might not be so good at a number of other roles. Shipping strike, shipping protection (Norway convoys), photo recon (where do you stick the cameras without changing the fuel tanks?), ground attack (being able to reload guns in the air?),etc.
> Those or missions that needed doing and were being done by 110s before the night fighter situation even comes up.



In terms of strikes, the Fw187 if capable of handling drop tanks, could handle bombs for strike missions, while the lack of reloadable nose cannon prior to the MG151 would be a minor hinderance. In terms of air superiority and CAP missions the Fw187 would in fact be better due to its longer range and therefore loiter time, while its speed would mean being able to actually win aerial battles, rather than being vulnerable to SE fighters. For photo recon remove the cannons for camera space, same as the Bf110, but with longer range from its internal fuel; drop tanks could be used for range increases if needed, while speed would be higher, therefore more surviveable. I would ask how much strafing the Bf110 did historically prior to the fighter-bomber variant being developed in 1940. Once the bomb equipped version was available cannon strafing matters somewhat less, while once the belt fed cannons are available the reloading point is moot.


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## GregP (Jan 14, 2015)

Can't say the Fw 187 could achieve air superiority unless we know the numbers avaiable. If they had, say, 43 (like the full production run of Ta 152's) then they'd be a non-factor. If they had maybe 350+, perhaps it would have been a different story.

I'm unconvinced the Nazis could have completed quantity production before the BOB. Makes for a good "what if" though, doesn't it?

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## wiking85 (Jan 14, 2015)

GregP said:


> Can't sya the Fw 187 could achieve air superiority unless we know the numbers avaiable. If they had, say, 43 (like the full production run of Ta 152's) then they'd be a non-factor. If they had maybe 350+, perhaps it would have been a different story.
> 
> I'm unconvinced the Nazis could have completed quantity production before the BOB. Makes for a good "what if" though, doesn't it?



If we follow the development/production history of the Bf110 as an example, the Fw187 was about 12 months behind the Bf110. So that would mean serial production about May 1939. From that point on that gives us about 16 months of production before Adlertag. It took about 6 months in peacetime to train up a unit on a new type, but a couple-few months in wartime due to the rush. So how many could be built in 16 months? Several hundred Bf110s were built from September 1939-May 1940, as only ~110 had been built prior to the start of the war and most ZG didn't have any on hand for Poland. I could see having 2-3 Geschwader ready for the BoB.


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## GregP (Jan 14, 2015)

I can't, unless you can convince the Luftwaffe NOT to also build the Bf 110.


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## Shortround6 (Jan 14, 2015)

dedalos said:


> 7 seconds are enough to explode 2 hurricains and then still 4 mgs available concentrated in the nose



Not every pilot was an expert. 



> I could argue that the Fw187 could execute most of these missions . But even if the single Seat Fw 187 could not fullfil these missions, it would be enough to secure aerial superiority. Then various other LW aircraft could execute those missions. I would even say that it would be a luxury for the LW to use her best performing long range fighter for secondaries missions. The single absolutely most important Mission is Air superiority. Everything else is a next step. A single Seat ,DB601 equiped Fw 187 appears, on Paper, that would have helped the LW A LOT, in BoB ,in Meditterenean, and over the Biscay Bay



Bf 110 with camera;





The 110 may have lost it's cannon but a crew member could reach the camera in fight, change film magazine? 

For carrying a heavy load both wing area and power help. you can substitute power for wing area but after a while you get into diminishing returns. 

You are also expecting an awful lot from a few hundred (or even 4-500) aircraft. You seem to be describing air supremacy, not air superiority.

"Air supremacy is the highest level, where a side holds complete control of the skies."

or "degree of air superiority wherein the opposing air force is incapable of effective interference."

And we are back to the radio problem, sending single seat fighters out hundreds of kilometers from land, unable to contact shore stations/bases or other aircraft in the area is NOT doing the same job the 110s could do. 

The Fw 187 would have been a useful _addition_ to the Luftwaffe but it could NOT replace the 110 in all roles. 

And if you want a _super_ fighter in 1940 how about just cleanup the aerodynamics of 109?


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## GrauGeist (Jan 14, 2015)

If the RLM had decided the Fw187 would fit in the gap between the Bf109 and the Bf110, then why wouldn't they have been able to produce a certain quantity in the year preceeding the BoB?

German manufacturing was capable of building several different types at the same time...


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## GregP (Jan 14, 2015)

Good point Graugeist. The Luftwaffe itself decided the Fw 187 was not as suitable to meets its needs as other types. Of course, this is the same Luftwaffe that never thopught a strategic bomber was necessary either, so what can you expect? They made some bad choices, and found they couldn't live with them. They weren't the first to be so inept at making good wartime decisions and certainly won't be the last.


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## stona (Jan 15, 2015)

How would the earliest versions of the P-38 have done in 1940 against the RAF's Spitfires and Hurricanes. Obviously you'll need a TARDIS and a time lord to get them there. Not very well I suspect, which begs the question whether you want the Fw 187 to be a German P-38.

Cheers

Steve

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## tomo pauk (Jan 15, 2015)

The early P-38s, the -D and -E, were credited to some 375 mph at 20000 ft (and even above 390mph, but that brings out the problems with intercoolers not having sufficient capacity, hence too high the carburetor temperature), or about the same as the Spitfire V or Bf-109F1/F2. Some 50 mph better than the Bf-110 or Hurricane I. Or about 20 mph better than Spit I or Bf-109E3/E4. The P-38 also featured a far better 'lethality package' than fighters in the BoB. The 'straight P-38' (no suffix) was without s-s tanks, 400 US gals fuel tankage, the s-s tanks were installed with P-38D (300 US gals). The P-38E received 20mm (60 rd drum) instead of 37mm M4 cannon, along with staggered BMGs that enabled ammo for them to be doubled in quantity (500 rpg max). Prior Pearl Harbour there was no drop tanks facility for the P-38s. 
All in all, I'd say that the early P-38s would've done just fine vs. Hurricanes, sort a repeat of P-38 vs. Zero situation. Against the Spitfires, it would've offered a thin performance edge above 17-18000 ft, but none under 15000 ft. Problem with any god performing escort fighter is that 'close escort' works against it, the P-38 was no exception - if one wants it to do any good, let it loose on the 'freijagd'.

The Fw-187 with DB 6 on board would save plenty of weight vs. the P-38, and the thing is that Germans did not have a fighter that was capable both to perform AND to have long range, a necessity during the BoB.


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## The Basket (Jan 15, 2015)

By 1940 the Bf110 was still decent enough.
The replacement was the Bf210.
You don't suddenly cancel major defence projects.


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## Shortround6 (Jan 15, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> If the RLM had decided the Fw187 would fit in the gap between the Bf109 and the Bf110, then why wouldn't they have been able to produce a certain quantity in the year preceeding the BoB?
> 
> German manufacturing was capable of building several different types at the same time...



They were certainly capable of building a number of different types, however were they capable of building a significantly greater total number of engines or thousands of pounds (Kilos) of airframe? Every Fw 187 is one 110 not built or 2 109s not built (roughly)? 
Now are 200 FW 187 going cause more damage to the RAF than 400 Bf 109s? 
They may very well cause more damage to the RAF than 200 Bf 110s but if they can't perform some of the 110s roles that leaves the Luftwaffe trying to use Ju 88s or Do 17s for those roles with Fw 187 escorts. Doable but perhaps not as efficient? If Fw 187s are escorting shipping strikes or photo recon planes then they are not escorting bombers?


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## tomo pauk (Jan 15, 2015)

We might recall that Focke Wulf did not have a 1st-line aircraft in production service during the 1st two years of the war. Asking from Fw 187s produced in 1939-40 (had that been undertaken) to perform long range escort, recon, shipping/escort strikes, all in the same time, might be asking too much. Just concentrate on long range escort. 
If the shipping strikes are undertaken in the Channel area and southern part of North Sea, the Bf-109 can do the escort there. Once the BoB was truly under way, the shipping strikes were relegated to second, if not 3rd priority for the LW. 

The 400 Bf-109s cannot do any damage to the RAF if they cannot perform escort further than Kent, or thereabouts. Same problem of insufficient range shared with P-47s and Spitfires in 1943/early 1944 vs. LW in ETO.


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## spicmart (Jan 15, 2015)

wiking85 said:


> The only problem was that it never became operational due to structural issues (not just the glue problem). The Fw187 was killed by politics, while the Ta-154 was put into production, but never was able to work out its issues.




According to Hermann's Book about the Ta 154 there never were any major issues not even the glue problem. Appareantly the glue problem was much exaggerated in written history and there grew this myth about it. And its pilots' actually liked it much saying that is was almost as manoueverable as the 190 and flew nicely.


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## wiking85 (Jan 15, 2015)

spicmart said:


> According to Hermann's Book about the Ta 154 there never were any major issues not even the glue problem. Appareantly the glue problem was much exaggerated in written history and there grew this myth about it. And its pilots' actually liked it much saying that is was almost as manoueverable as the 190 and flew nicely.



Then why wasn't it built considering the vast efforts made to bring it to production? The prototypes kept breaking up during testing and the production investments cancelled and scrapped. 
Focke-Wulf Ta 154 â€“ Wikipedia 
Focke-Wulf Ta 154 â€“ Wikipedia


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## GregP (Jan 15, 2015)

The Fw 187 wasn't built by the Germans, who needed just such a fighter. Neither was the Ts 154 and it was needed, too (or something very similar to it). Instead the Luftwaffe soldiered on with the Bf 110 which was a very pleasant aircraft to fly, if not to fight in. It was STILL being flown as a front-line aircraft late in teh war.

I have wondered for years why things happened the way they did and I keep coming back to the same conclusions. The Nazi government and armed services were chiefed by people who had no long range plan and little vision. In this case, long range" meant as little as only 5 years. Had they thought in terms of continuing to fight successfully while developing and fielding new weapons in as little as 2 - 3 years, they would have seen the need for better aircraft, more capable U-boats, and tanks that could travel in Europe and Asis with getting stuck due their own weight.

Many of the German weapons were excellent and were well thought out but almost all of the truly good German items of war materiel were develped at leisure as they were building up to start the war. How many really good weapon systems were developed successfully and fielded after 1942? Even the Me 262 was in development before that time. I can't think of too many weapons that were started, developed, produced, and successfully fielded after the war started going downhill for Germany.


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## GrauGeist (Jan 15, 2015)

Shortround6 said:


> They were certainly capable of building a number of different types, however were they capable of building a significantly greater total number of engines or thousands of pounds (Kilos) of airframe? Every Fw 187 is one 110 not built or 2 109s not built (roughly)?
> Now are 200 FW 187 going cause more damage to the RAF than 400 Bf 109s?
> They may very well cause more damage to the RAF than 200 Bf 110s but if they can't perform some of the 110s roles that leaves the Luftwaffe trying to use Ju 88s or Do 17s for those roles with Fw 187 escorts. Doable but perhaps not as efficient? If Fw 187s are escorting shipping strikes or photo recon planes then they are not escorting bombers?


I don't really follow that logic, to be honest.

If Focke-Wulf produced 200 Fw187 aircraft in time for the BoB, that's 200 more aircraft to participate.

Whether or not Focke-Wulf manufactured these aircraft, Messerschmitt would have still produced the airframes that they did. So would Arado, Blohm und Voss, Heinkel, Junkers, Gotha, Fiesler, Henschel, Bucker, Siebel and so on.

When Focke-Wulf started production of the Fw190, it didn't diminish any other company's output, but supplemented the quantity of available Luftwaffe fighters.

As it stands, the Fw187 used the Jumo210 series engine, which would not have shorted any current front line aircraft during the BoB, as the Stuka was using the 211, Messerschmitt had upgraded their models to the DB6xx series.


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## wiking85 (Jan 15, 2015)

GregP said:


> The Fw 187 wasn't built by the Germans, who needed just such a fighter. Neither was the Ts 154 and it was needed, too (or something very similar to it). Instead the Luftwaffe soldiered on with the Bf 110 which was a very pleasant aircraft to fly, if not to fight in. It was STILL being flown as a front-line aircraft late in teh war.
> 
> I have wondered for years why things happened the way they did and I keep coming back to the same conclusions. The Nazi government and armed services were chiefed by people who had no long range plan and little vision. In this case, long range" meant as little as only 5 years. Had they thought in terms of continuing to fight successfully while developing and fielding new weapons in as little as 2 - 3 years, they would have seen the need for better aircraft, more capable U-boats, and tanks that could travel in Europe and Asis with getting stuck due their own weight.
> 
> Many of the German weapons were excellent and were well thought out but almost all of the truly good German items of war materiel were develped at leisure as they were building up to start the war. How many really good weapon systems were developed successfully and fielded after 1942? Even the Me 262 was in development before that time. I can't think of too many weapons that were started, developed, produced, and successfully fielded after the war started going downhill for Germany.



AFAIK Hitler thought the war would be over by the end of 1941 when he started planning Barbarossa, as he genuinely believed the USSR would collapse and Britain would sue for peace once they were beaten. That massively disrupted any rational planning, plus of course general Nazi inefficiency and bureaucratic infighting.


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## Shortround6 (Jan 15, 2015)

Well, the 110 was 'supposed' to have succeed by the Me 210 but the provision of an internal bomb bay for a pair of 500kg bombs rather shows what direction they were leaning in, regardless of the eventual outcome and long range escort fighter wasn't it. 

In some cases the Germans had _too much_ vision. The competition to the Me 210 being the Arado 240 with pressurized cockpit, a different type of remote control gun barbettes a wing not much bigger than the FW 187 or P-38s for a 20-22,000lb plane with as many high lift devices as they could cram on it. Ducted spinner cooling system, new type of self sealing tanks and oh, yes, it had to have dive brakes and be able to dive bomb 

The Germans in 1939-41 seemed to want to try to stuff _each and *every*_ new device/trick/component in existence in prototype form into every new plane they working on. 

Ok a bit of an exaggeration but they seemed to try to jump a generation of aircraft development. Sort of like going from the B-18 bomber to the B-29 without working on the B-17/B-25/B-24 in between.


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## stona (Jan 15, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> If Focke-Wulf produced 200 Fw187 aircraft in time for the BoB, that's 200 more aircraft to participate.



And 200 more pilots?

Steve


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## wiking85 (Jan 15, 2015)

Shortround6 said:


> Well, the 110 was 'supposed' to have succeed by the Me 210 but the provision of an internal bomb bay for a pair of 500kg bombs rather shows what direction they were leaning in, regardless of the eventual outcome and long range escort fighter wasn't it.
> 
> In some cases the Germans had _too much_ vision. The competition to the Me 210 being the Arado 240 with pressurized cockpit, a different type of remote control gun barbettes a wing not much bigger than the FW 187 or P-38s for a 20-22,000lb plane with as many high lift devices as they could cram on it. Ducted spinner cooling system, new type of self sealing tanks and oh, yes, it had to have dive brakes and be able to dive bomb
> 
> ...



That's the thing, the Me210 was only supposed to be a clean up of the Bf110 airframe, rather than a totally new aircraft, but Messerschmitt wanted something special and even personally intervened in the new design, which ultimately compromised it, and presented the RLM with the flawed model that Udet bought. 

German tank designs were fraught with that crap too, as the Panther design had all sorts of added features that were not asked for to sell the design, such as a rubberized engine block to enable submerged river crossing, but ended up causing engine fires, including two Panthers lost detraining for the Kursk offensive.


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## dedalos (Jan 15, 2015)

spicmart said:


> According to Hermann's Book about the Ta 154 there never were any major issues not even the glue problem. Appareantly the glue problem was much exaggerated in written history and there grew this myth about it. And its pilots' actually liked it much saying that is was almost as manoueverable as the 190 and flew nicely.[/QUOTEou
> 
> Do you have the Hermann s book for the Tsa 154 ? If yes, does it include performance calculations for the single Seat ,version?


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## Shortround6 (Jan 15, 2015)

> I don't really follow that logic, to be honest.
> 
> If Focke-Wulf produced 200 Fw187 aircraft in time for the BoB, that's 200 more aircraft to participate.



As an Example out of about 647 Bf 109 C-Ds built, only 62 were built by Messerschmitt at Augsburg. Focke-Wolfe built 123, Erla built 168, Fiesler built 80, AGO built 128 and Arado built 144. 
While production of 109s at FW tapered off (90 E-1s?) in 1939/40 other factories continued to build the bulk of the 109s. Like Fiesler building around 665 109Es up until the end of Oct 1940 and Arado building 613. 
Messerschmitt built around 281Es divided between the Augsburg and Regensburg Factories. 

I rather doubt FW had the size factory needed to mass produce the FW 187 in large numbers in 1939/40 as their last mass produced plane of theri own was the FW 44 Stieglitz;






In German fashion Production of the Fw 187 wold have farmed out/shared by several other existing companies. But that means they wouldn't be making what they made historicly.

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## GregP (Jan 15, 2015)

I follow Shortround's logic above. DB 6 engines were in short supply from when they were originally released until sometime well after mid war. If I am not mistaken, the DB engines set the pace of Bf 109 production to a large degree. If that was the case, then one Fw 187 removes two Bf 109s, even if the airframes are ready and waiting for an engine.

The Luftwaffe was already short of Bf 109s in the BOB, and several hundred fewer would not be a good thing for the Luftwaffe.

If WOULD have been a good thing to build early Fw 187s if other things could have remained as they really happened, but I agree with Shortround. If they HAD built production Fw 187s, something else powered by the Db 6 enginers would have HAD to suffer. The Luftwaffe was already committed to the Bf 109 and Bf 110 (they were also committed to the Fw 190 but it didn't use a Db 6, at least not at that time), and the Bf 110 had yet to prove itself a less than wonderful heavy fighter when coming up aginast agile single seaters, so what would possibly be the incentive to dump either the Bf 109 OR the Bf 110 in favor of the Fw 187 in the timeframe we are discussing?

I think the ONLY way to have done it would have been with a dose of hindsight which, as we are all probably painfully aware in out own lives, is usually in critically short supply just when it is needed.

Where the hell did those green things come from? I was trying to type DB 6 0 X, without the spaces.


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## GrauGeist (Jan 15, 2015)

GregP said:


> I follow Shortround's logic above. DB 6 engines were in short supply from when they were originally released until sometime well after mid war. If I am not mistaken, the DB engines set the pace of Bf 109 production to a large degree. If that was the case, then one Fw 187 removes two Bf 109s, even if the airframes are ready and waiting for an engine.
> 
> The Luftwaffe was already short of Bf 109s in the BOB, and several hundred fewer would not be a good thing for the Luftwaffe.
> 
> ...


The Fw187 used Jumo210G engines, not Daimler-Benz 6 series engines...


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## Shortround6 (Jan 15, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> The Fw187 used Jumo210G engines, not Daimler-Benz 6 series engines...



It did because of the shortage of DB601 engines. It was designed to use DB60? engines but was fitted with the Jumo because of the shortage. While performance was good with the Jumos it wasn't good enough to change the air war the way it's proponents are hoping for. It needs the extra 3-400hp per engine to turn it into the Spitfire beater


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## wiking85 (Jan 15, 2015)

GregP said:


> If WOULD have been a good thing to build early Fw 187s if other things could have remained as they really happened, but I agree with Shortround. If they HAD built production Fw 187s, something else powered by the Db 6 enginers would have HAD to suffer. The Luftwaffe was already committed to the Bf 109 and Bf 110 (they were also committed to the Fw 190 but it didn't use a Db 6, at least not at that time), and the Bf 110 had yet to prove itself a less than wonderful heavy fighter when coming up aginast agile single seaters, so what would possibly be the incentive to dump either the Bf 109 OR the Bf 110 in favor of the Fw 187 in the timeframe we are discussing?
> 
> I think the ONLY way to have done it would have been with a dose of hindsight which, as we are all probably painfully aware in out own lives, is usually in critically short supply just when it is needed.
> 
> Where the hell did those green things come from? I was trying to type DB 6 0 X, without the spaces.



Here's the thing about the Bf110: it was Goering's baby. The professionals were trying to kill it and replace it with the Fw187, but that effort was killed by Wever's death and the dismantling of his team of technical professionals, instead replaced by Udet, who was horribly incompetent at his job. E.R. Hooton talks about this in the first book in his two book LW series, while Edward Homze talks about this event as the beginning of the long, slow death of the LW, as Goering now ran the show and staffed it with his buddies and sychophants.


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## spicmart (Jan 15, 2015)

dedalos said:


> spicmart said:
> 
> 
> > According to Hermann's Book about the Ta 154 there never were any major issues not even the glue problem. Appareantly the glue problem was much exaggerated in written history and there grew this myth about it. And its pilots' actually liked it much saying that is was almost as manoueverable as the 190 and flew nicely.[/QUOTEou
> ...


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## GregP (Jan 15, 2015)

Hi Graugeist,

I was talking about using the DB 60x engines and making the Fw 187 into a true heavy fighter, not the Jumo 210 equipped units. They actually DID make one of the beasts with them. It was the V7, converted from 210s to 601s. The projected "super Fw 187" was DB equipped, not Jumo equipped, and the DB engines were the desire of Fw from the outset, as well documented.


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## fastmongrel (Jan 16, 2015)

If the LW gets the 187 then the RAF has to get a Whirlwind MkII.

Both are about as likely as the other unfortunately.

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## tomo pauk (Jan 16, 2015)

The LW got the Fw 187  (albeit in token numbers).
Jokes aside, technically the Fw 187 was more apt to receive the DB 6 engine (it was done on experimental basis), than the Whirlwind to receive Merlins. The Whirly was just too small.


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## wiking85 (Jan 16, 2015)

fastmongrel said:


> If the LW gets the 187 then the RAF has to get a Whirlwind MkII.
> 
> Both are about as likely as the other unfortunately.



How does that follow?


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## stona (Jan 16, 2015)

tomo pauk said:


> The early P-38s, the -D and -E, were credited to some 375 mph at 20000 ft.



They'd have to fight higher than that in the summer/autumn of 1940 and against a far more agile opponent. Anyway, it's not really the point of the thread 

Cheers

Steve


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## wuzak (Jan 16, 2015)

GregP said:


> I follow Shortround's logic above. DB 6 engines were in short supply from when they were originally released until sometime well after mid war. If I am not mistaken, the DB engines set the pace of Bf 109 production to a large degree. If that was the case, then one Fw 187 removes two Bf 109s, even if the airframes are ready and waiting for an engine.



The Bf110 also used 2 x DB601s (at that point in time). So the production of each Fw187 would most likely cost one Bf110 rather than two Bf109s.

But if you can't get the DB601 or the Jumo 211 then really, what's the point?


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## tomo pauk (Jan 16, 2015)

I'd say that it depends whether such a fighter is really wanted. If yes, then Bf-110 is not produced, the Daimlerized Fw 187 is instead. 
Looking at historical Fw 187 being as fast as Hurricane I and Bf-110C, the Hispano engines can be installed, too. There was a production line in Czechoslovakia for the 12Ycrs, 860 HP at 4 km. some 150 HP less than DB 601, but also 200 HP more than Jumo 210. Once France is occupied, transfer more tooling in Bohemia, or re-tool what is needed for production of German engines there; historically the Jumo 211 was produced in Bohemia.
Another proposal is the Gnome Rhone 14N, radial twin row engine.

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## GregP (Jan 16, 2015)

The only reason I was saying the Bf 110 was not going to be reduced is because the Battle Of Britian had yet to happen when the proposed Fw 187 acquisition would be taking place, and the Bf 110 was never proven to be a failure as a fighter until the BOB. 

So it was in full acquisition mode during the proposed Fw 187 purchase timeline. I'd have preferred the Fw 187 to the Bf 110 myself, but I wasn't in the decision loop at the time.

So I'm thinking that the Bf 110 was still looked upon with considerable favor in the 1938 - 1939 timeframe.


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## stona (Jan 17, 2015)

GregP said:


> So I'm thinking that the Bf 110 was still looked upon with considerable favor in the 1938 - 1939 timeframe.



It certainly was. It was a very good aeroplane in that time frame. We shouldn't forget that it was still being produced, definitely, in December 1944 and almost certainly right until the end of the war. The idea that it was a 'bad' aeroplane is simply untenable. The only other two British or German fighters (heavy or otherwise) conceived in a similar period that you can say that about are the Spitfire and Bf 109, which is illustrious company indeed.

The Ta 154 failed to match the anticipated performance promised by Tank/Focke-Wulf. There may be a cautionary note there for those who extrapolate prototype or calculated data for the Fw 187 onto a theoretical service type. Both Galland and Streib, on flying the type, expressed their disappointment, not least because it could not match the British Mosquito.
As far as development problems, V4 lost an engine in flight and subsequently crashed. V5 leaked like a sieve, notably collecting water in the gun bay. V6 and V7 both suffered a long list of technical failures, one of which, rust, is surprising on a largely wooden aeroplane. V8 crashed, killing both pilots, following an engine fire. V9 crashed on landing due to hydraulic failure. Two A-1s were lost in June 1944, the second broke up in flight and this was attributed to problems with the glue by Focke-Wulf themselves who unilaterally stopped production.
After this the Ta 154 was on the verge of cancellation, not production. It is no coincidence that it is at this time (17th June) that a Herr Schopfel from the Focke-Wulf Entwurfsburo visited Junkers at Dessau to look at the possibility of its use in a Mistel.

Cheers

Steve


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## Denniss (Jan 17, 2015)

Bf 110 production ended in 1/45. It was only kept in production for the NF units wanting them although it was deemed too slow by 1944.


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## stona (Jan 17, 2015)

Yes, and fuselages and other components were found by the Allies at the end of the war. Whether they were ever to have been completed nobody knows. The Bf 110 was quite a Houdini, being axed several times, only to have production reinstated, continuing until the collapse of Nazi Germany. 
It is an aeroplane which does not deserve the cursory dismissal it often receives. It was one of the most successful of all designs produced by Germany or any other nation in the 1930s/40s. 

I don't find any mystery in the RLM's rejection of the Fw 187, given that they had the Bf 110.
As always hindsight is a wonderful thing, but not afforded to the decision makers in late 1937 when they decided that two engines was one many for a single seat fighter, the best configuration for the Fw 187. This more or less killed the type, and started the long and fruitless development of a two seat 'heavy fighter'. Subsequently Focke-Wulf grasped at a series of straws in an effort to get a decent contract for some, any, version of the type.
Nobody at the RLM or in the Luftwaffe in 1937/8 saw any need for the long range escort fighter that the Fw 187 might have been. All the planning was for scenarios for conflict with Germany's continental neighbours. 
Rapidly deploying to, and operating from, forward airbases is something the Luftwaffe did exercise and train for. 
Cheers
Steve


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## stona (Jan 17, 2015)

fastmongrel said:


> If the LW gets the 187 then the RAF has to get a Whirlwind MkII.



If by Merlin Mk II you mean a Merlin powered variant, it was never going to happen. The original Mk II proposal was for an upgraded Peregrine version. No Mk II ever existed, though some apply the designation quite wrongly to the 'Whirlibomber'.

A Merlin conversion would have been a very complicated a job and needed considerable redesign which was never seriously considered, let alone undertaken. The Air Ministry pulled the plug on it and Westland were told to get on with other things. Unfortunately the RLM across the North Sea didn't work in the same way as the Fw187 saga clearly demonstrates.

Eric Mensforth approached Fighter Command (not the Air Ministry) through what we would call 'back channels' in January 1941 with a proposal fro a Merlin XX powered Whirlwind. Teddy Petter proposed a smaller diameter four blade propeller to overcome the close proximity of the engine nacelles to the fuselage but nobody came up with even a theoretical solution for the principal problem. Though the Merlin wasn't much longer or heavier than the Peregrine it did use an up draught carburettor and this occupied space at the lower rear end of the engine required for the Whirlwind's main undercarriage mountings. Either Rolls Royce would have to completely redesign this aspect of the engine (never going to happen) or Westland would have to redesign the undercarriage system and nacelle of the Whirlwind, which they never even attempted to do.
From memory Westland's next paper project was a Hercules powered version. 

Once again it is easy for us to write now, and Mensforth then, about such a seemingly straight forward thing as an engine swop, the reality is usually much more complicated and difficult.

Cheers

Steve


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## fastmongrel (Jan 17, 2015)

tomo pauk said:


> The LW got the Fw 187  (albeit in token numbers).
> Jokes aside, technically the Fw 187 was more apt to receive the DB 6 engine (it was done on experimental basis), than the Whirlwind to receive Merlins. The Whirly was just too small.



Whirlwind II would have had Peregrines but of a later more developed version maybe with a Merlin XX type blower and water/glycol cooling.


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## dedalos (Jan 17, 2015)

stona said:


> Yes, and fuselages and other components were found by the Allies at the end of the war. Whether they were ever to have been completed nobody knows. The Bf 110 was quite a Houdini, being axed several times, only to have production reinstated, continuing until the collapse of Nazi Germany.
> It is an aeroplane which does not deserve the cursory dismissal it often receives. It was one of the most successful of all designs produced by Germany or any other nation in the 1930s/40s.
> 
> I don't find any mystery in the RLM's rejection of the Fw 187, given that they had the Bf 110.
> ...



I partially disagree. We all know today that Bf 110 was a very useful and capable Aircraft in a variety of roles.But we must note forget that the reason of its creation was neither the night fighting nor the ground attacls. It was designed and ordered as long range fightter to clear the road ahead of the bombers. And it was in this role that was almost exlusively used until BoB. Only after its failure did the germans seek oher roles for the Bf110. Only when it was proven in practice its incapability as Air superiority fighter was used for other things and the role of long range fighter remained empty in LW s roster. So, since it failed in the role that it was designed for, it was a massive failure. ( To be fair , bad tactics by LW also doomed the 110 in BoB)
Also it was no surprise that it could not out fight the spitfire. It was no surprise in 1938, it was no surprise in 1940 before the BoB. Many questioned ,in 1937, its ability to deliver what it promised. In 1940 most Technical officer of the Bf 110 gruppen, and many pilots, were certain that they would fail in BoB. It was pure mathematics. The power and wing loading of the 110 were simply inferior to the single engine fighters. Furthermore , in mock dogfights, the 110 was very easily defeated by 109s. Why would be any different against spitfires? And it was already proven in BoF. 
On the other hand The Fw 187 had proved in direct comparison tests that when using same engines,was outperforming the 109 and could manouver with it in equal terms . Even the Jumo 210 Fw 187 was judged as better handling and agility than the Bf110 C (DB601s)!
So, there s mystery with the rejection of Fw 187 by the RLM. They had the 110 but it could not make their job. The 187 could. It was clearly a politicaln decision of the mid war nazi germany. Germany could not have both the 187 and 110. Should cancel the 110 and push the 187 (and in my opinion in its original single Seat version) simply because was massively superior
The 187 had another chance in 1942. In summer RLM, with the fiasco of the Me 210, asked Fw to prepare modern FW187s prototypes and prepare for serial production.Then in autumn cancelled the entire Programme. They went ahead with Me 210 , Me 410 s, Bf110G. Aircraft with massively inferior performance for the heavy,day fighter role and more expensive than the Fw187. The 410 using DB603 was 60KM/H slower than the twin Seat 187 using Db 605 s !! For me this is an even more mysterious decision than the 1937/38. After 3 years of war ,they had experience, it had been proved that performance was everything for a fighter. And again chose aircraft that had not a chance against the Bf 109. How rlm expected the 210/410 to survive alleid fighters since could not face the 109? How expected a light/attack bomber, to survive the thousands American escort fighters? Let s accept that in 1937 did not see the future correct. Then they htsad the disastrous BoB experience. And then choose as their next Zerstorcher
an aircraft that it was even less a fighter than 110 was!!! They demanded an Internal bomb bay in a fighter!!
I often wonder, did RLM had any feedback by operational units? If they had, did they pay any attention to the operational units needs?
The glamorous General der Jagdflieger, what was doing? How allowed his men flying bombers that were baptised fighters against the thousands P51s,p47s,?


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## fastmongrel (Jan 17, 2015)

wiking85 said:


> How does that follow?



Because both aircraft were not wanted, production of them would have taken resources from other aircraft, and they were both built in small factories that basically werent up to the job of turning them out like hot rolls. All these problems could be and were overcome but what do you lose if they are built. Maybe no Fw190 in 1941.


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## stona (Jan 17, 2015)

dedalos said:


> On the other hand The Fw 187 had proved in direct comparison tests that when using same engines,was outperforming the 109 and could manouver with it in equal terms . Even the Jumo 210 Fw 187 was judged as better handling and agility than the Bf110 C (DB601s)!



Before Paul Bauer destroyed it the Fw 187 V1 was shown to be about 35 kph faster than a Jumo 210 D powered Bf 109. This was the lightest, unarmed, single seat prototype of the Fw 187. What the performance of a fully armed, armoured and service equipped Fw 187 might have been is open to conjecture.

There never really was a service version of the Fw 187. The nearest we have would be the zero series (S) aircraft assigned to the Focke-Wulf Werksschutzstaffel and none of these were flown against a comparable Bf 109.
By the time the Staffel was established in early 1940 the comparison would have to be with a Daimler Benz powered 'Emil'. The one DB powered Fw 187 prototype was not exactly a practical service aircraft, the DB 601 installation wasn't even ground tested in V5 until 15th September 1939 and the problems, particularly with cooling, are well documented.

There's not much point making the Fw 187/Bf 110 comparison as the Fw 187 was incapable of performing many of the roles which the Bf 110 did. As a fighter the Fw 187 was superior, all the rest is guess work as there is no Fw 187 sub-type to compare. I'd bet the Bf 110 made a better glider tug 

Cheers

Steve


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## Shortround6 (Jan 17, 2015)

The 110 did what it was supposed to do fairly well. 



> I partially disagree. We all know today that Bf 110 was a very useful and capable Aircraft in a variety of roles.But we must note forget that the reason of its creation was neither the night fighting nor the ground attacls. It was designed and ordered as long range fightter to clear the road ahead of the bombers. And it was in this role that was almost exlusively used until BoB. Only after its failure did the germans seek oher roles for the Bf110. Only when it was proven in practice its incapability as Air superiority fighter was used for other things and the role of long range fighter remained empty in LW s roster. So, since it failed in the role that it was designed for, it was a massive failure. ( To be fair , bad tactics by LW also doomed the 110 in BoB)



For all of it's early flying with Jumo engines and a few DB powered prototypes the 110 was actually a bit of a late comer to service. As of Aug 31 1939 only `159 110C fighters had been built and only about 1/2 had been issued to the combat units, production was at about 30 per month (BTW FW was one of 3 factories building 110s in the spring/summer of 1939) and increase with 156 being built in the last 4 months of 1939. That is not a whole lot to divide up into other roles, especially considering that in Poland Jumo powered versions made up about 25% of the 110 force. 
As for NOT being used for other roles until _after_ the BoB, I am afraid that is not true. There were two Staffeln of 110C4/B fighter bombers being employed against channel shipping in July of 1940 and small numbers of 110C-5 Recon planes being used in early summer of 1940. British shot/forced down one of them on July 21st 1940 at Goodwood giving them their first good look at the 110. Lack of range (and the C-1 had _nominal_ range of 876 miles with extra tanks fitted _in_ the wings
during the Norway campaign led to the 110D with the huge plywood belly tank to give air cover to the coastal convoys along the Norwegian coast. A small number of these planes were used on Aug 15th as escorts for a flank attack on RAF airfields in Northern England. These early versions/variants continued to be developed during the BoB. 

Development of variants often took a number of months and overlapped operations.


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## stona (Jan 17, 2015)

It is not really correct that the reason the Bf 110 was created purely as a long range fighter to clear a path for the bombers. It is true that the design emerged from the Luftwaffe's guidelines as published in the 'Rustungflugzeug II' of 1932 and its successor of 1934. However, in early 1934 Prof. Messerschmitt submitted a memorandum to the RLM regarding Messerschmitt project 1035 (which would become the Bf 110) which offered not only a 'zerstorer' but also a high altitude reconnaissance aircraft and a bomber, all based on the same platform. It was normal practice for all German manufacturers to offer different versions based on the same platform in the 1930s, it was not a Messerschmitt speciality and the idea probably came from the RLM itself. 
The bomber requirement was lost from the Bf 110 later in 1935 and it did become more of a zerstorer. The Bf 161/162 were to have been the reconnaissance/high speed bomber versions. This only happened after the Germans discovered what others (particularly the Americans) were up to and developed the high speed bomber concept.

The argument that the Bf 110 failed as a bomber escort and therefore failed as an aircraft is spurious. The Nachtjagd would have been at a serious loss for the first several years of the war without it and that's just one role it fulfilled.
The Hawker Typhoon 'failed' as an air supremacy fighter but became one of the best three fighter bombers of the war in the ETO. Just because neither excelled in its originally intended role does not make either a failed aircraft.

On 12th May 1936 the first Bf 110 took to the air. The last 17 Bf 110 G-4s rolled of the production line in February 1945. Brand new Bf 110s were discovered by British troops, blown up by the Germans, at the Luther Works, Braunschweig, at the end of the war. That's not bad for any WW2 aircraft.

Cheers

Steve

Reactions: Agree Agree:
1 | Like List reactions


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## dedalos (Jan 17, 2015)

Stona
i dont accept your claim that the Fw 187 could not perform many of the roles that the 110 did. Recce? Would be better because was faster and cleaner airframe and higher service ceiling Jabo missions? The 110 had to be modifeid to perform such missions.With similar modifications ,better power reserves, the 187 would be superior 
Night fighting ? As long as there was no airborne radar both were of similar capability with the 187 again have the edge in handling and performance. Protect the u boats in biscay bay? the 187 far superior thatn both Ju88c and Bf 110 C. The german would have an answer for the mosquito

But all the above are of secondary importance. The Raison d'etre of the 110 was to protect the bombers. Thats why was created. When Goering was boasting prewar about his Zerstorcher Force he was not saying that it was good at ground attack, or recce, or Maritime patrol, or night fighting. He was claiming and expected that they would dominate the sky. And if the 110 had perform even with moderate succes the role for which was born there would not be the need to be modifeid for other roles
Stukas would made all the ground attack, Do17s would make the recce and night fighting,Ju 88 the Maritime patrols. It failed in its inteded role,with disastrous consequences. So in order to take something out of the aircraft they used it in other roles whre it performed decently. But it FAILED its primary and historical role and germany lost any chance to get out of the war in one piece

I would like to say something about the night fighting capabilities of the 110. It s a myth that it was very good night fighter. It was better than most of the other available aircraft the germans had but still was mediocre. Clearly inferior to Ju 88R&G. It s performance was barely adequate when fully equiped, its single engine behavior poor,its range short, the cocpit cramped for 3 man crew, its armor rather light. Too slow to catch the mosquito, far inferior than Ju 88 against bombers.
A combination of two Seat Fw187/Ju88 would be far superior.


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## Shortround6 (Jan 17, 2015)

I posted a picture of a camera being carried to a 110. It was decided back in 1938 that the Bf 161 recon plane would not be needed because the Bf 110 could do the job. The camera in the Bf 161 went where the bomb bay for ten 50 kg bombs went on the Bf 162. Alternative roles for the 110 were being thought of _well_ before the BoB. 
The 110 was initially designed and built with space for a 3 seat cockpit _should_ 3 seats be needed for a particular role. This did hurt performance but it also means it is going to be that much harder to modify a _single_ seat aircraft to perform those roles. As a fighter it was often flown with only two crew but the space was already there. No fuselage extensions or bulges needed. 

Stuka's could NOT do all ground/shipping attack. Do 17Zs with a max speed of 255mph are not going to be able to perform recon missions with the number of losses the 326mph (at same altitude) Bf 110 could (Do 215 could make 289mph at same height but needs the same DB engines). In 1940/early 41 JU-88Cs were based off the Ju 88A-1 bomber with Jumo 211B engines and had rather different performance than the Ju 88C-6 with Jumo 211Js. Part of the difference was made up (if you can call it that) by the C-2 operating at thousands of pounds less weight than the later Ju 88 fighters. This included an armament of ONE 20mmm cannon and 3 mgs firing forward. 

I have given 3 examples of the 110 being modified for other roles _before_ it's "failure". Can you give sources that contradict these examples? 
NO use of the 110 as a Jabo _before_ the BoB?
The 110 forced down at Goodwin had no camera or the date is wrong? 
110Ds with the belly plywood tank were NOT in use in June/July of 1940?


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## stona (Jan 17, 2015)

The Bf 110 was the backbone of the Nachjagd for almost the entire war. The Do 17 made a very poor night fighter in the opinion of most (not all) who flew it. There were no purpose built night fighters available to the Luftwaffe in 1940/41 because they weren't expecting to be bombed by night! They were lucky to have the Bf 110. Eventually another converted bomber, the Ju 88, became a decent night fighter too.

In the mid 1930s the Bf 110 was NOT competing with the Fw 187 as a heavy fighter. It was competing against the Fw 157 and Hs 124 and it was superior in almost every way to both. That's why the RLM ordered it into production.

The Bf 110 didn't fail in its designed role with disastrous consequences, the Luftwaffe attempted to do something it was neither designed to do, nor was it ever capable of doing it. The Bf 110 C had a range of about 500 miles on internal fuel only. Even adding external auxiliary tanks (not the 'Dackelbauch' which contained both fuel and oil, 1050 and 106 litres respectively) meant that extra oil also had to be carried. It was designed for Blitzkrieg in continental Europe, not crossing the North Sea.

From about June 1940 the Luftwaffe saw the Bf 110 first as a fighter bomber and then as a night fighter, not as a 'long range heavy fighter' and the 'dackelbauch' disappeared forever. 

Cheers

Steve


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## GrauGeist (Jan 17, 2015)

dedalos said:


> I would like to say something about the night fighting capabilities of the 110. It s a myth that it was very good night fighter. It was better than most of the other available aircraft the germans had but still was mediocre. Clearly inferior to Ju 88R&G. It s performance was barely adequate when fully equiped, its single engine behavior poor,its range short, the cocpit cramped for 3 man crew, its armor rather light. Too slow to catch the mosquito, far inferior than Ju 88 against bombers.
> A combination of two Seat Fw187/Ju88 would be far superior.


Some of the highest scoring nachtjager pilots flew the Bf110...look at Schnaufer, for example. Yes, the Ju88 was a good NF, but the Bf110 certainly proved it's worth in that role, which wasn't part of it's original design.

The Fw187 was designed as a fighter, not a bomber and unlike the Bf110, would not have adapted as well due to it's dimensions. The Bf110's cockpit was far larger than the Fw187's, as the 187 had been originally designed as a single-seater. Adding a second crewman aboard the 187 was almost a waste, as there was really nothing for him to do, but add weight, since the configuration of the cockpit-to-fuselage prevented the addition of defensive armament.

I could certainly see the 187 performing photo recon duties, as the camera systems used aboard the Bf109 would have fit in the 187's fuselage/cockpit well enough.


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## dedalos (Jan 17, 2015)

Shortround6 said:


> I posted a picture of a camera being carried to a 110. It was decided back in 1938 that the Bf 161 recon plane would not be needed because the Bf 110 could do the job. The camera in the Bf 161 went where the bomb bay for ten 50 kg bombs went on the Bf 162. Alternative roles for the 110 were being thought of _well_ before the BoB.
> The 110 was initially designed and built with space for a 3 seat cockpit _should_ 3 seats be needed for a particular role. This did hurt performance but it also means it is going to be that much harder to modify a _single_ seat aircraft to perform those roles. As a fighter it was often flown with only two crew but the space was already there. No fuselage extensions or bulges needed.
> 
> Stuka's could NOT do all ground/shipping attack. Do 17Zs with a max speed of 255mph are not going to be able to perform recon missions with the number of losses the 326mph (at same altitude) Bf 110 could (Do 215 could make 289mph at same height but needs the same DB engines). In 1940/early 41 JU-88Cs were based off the Ju 88A-1 bomber with Jumo 211B engines and had rather different performance than the Ju 88C-6 with Jumo 211Js. Part of the difference was made up (if you can call it that) by the C-2 operating at thousands of pounds less weight than the later Ju 88 fighters. This included an armament of ONE 20mmm cannon and 3 mgs firing forward.
> ...



Please read carefully my posts.
I wrote "almost exslusively". I am well aware of the jabo missions.
Also in my second post, i mean that if the 110 had succed in its job of clearing the skies there woulb be no reason to perform other duties. It would be safe for the ju87,Do17,He 111 etc do their job.By taking over the duties of the specialized ground attack aircrafts was because of the reality and the succes was limited.


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## wiking85 (Jan 17, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> Some of the highest scoring nachtjager pilots flew the Bf110...look at Schnaufer, for example. Yes, the Ju88 was a good NF, but the Bf110 certainly proved it's worth in that role, which wasn't part of it's original design.
> 
> The Fw187 was designed as a fighter, not a bomber and unlike the Bf110, would not have adapted as well due to it's dimensions. The Bf110's cockpit was far larger than the Fw187's, as the 187 had been originally designed as a single-seater. Adding a second crewman aboard the 187 was almost a waste, as there was really nothing for him to do, but add weight, since the configuration of the cockpit-to-fuselage prevented the addition of defensive armament.
> 
> I could certainly see the 187 performing photo recon duties, as the camera systems used aboard the Bf109 would have fit in the 187's fuselage/cockpit well enough.



The second crew member for the 187 would control the larger radio that had longer range than the Me109. Then there is the Fw187C with a larger cockpit and fuselage that upped the fuel tank size and enabled it to carry significant bomb loads externally.


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## dedalos (Jan 17, 2015)

t


GrauGeist said:


> Some of the highest scoring nachtjager pilots flew the Bf110...look at Schnaufer, for example. Yes, the Ju88 was a good NF, but the Bf110 certainly proved it's worth in that role, which wasn't part of it's original design.
> * They flew it because it was ,for much of the war, the best that was available. Still it had several weaknesses*
> 
> The Fw187 was designed as a fighter, not a bomber and unlike the Bf110, would not have adapted as well due to it's dimensions. The Bf110's cockpit was far larger than the Fw187's, as the 187 had been originally designed as a single-seater.
> ...


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## stona (Jan 17, 2015)

Any conflict is a dynamic event. As was once famously said, no plan survives first contact with the enemy. 

The British envisioned their turret fighters raking formations of enemy bombers, they did not anticipate the presence of single engine escorts because they did not anticipate the fall of France.

The Germans anticipated their destroyers clearing the skies of bomber killers (and the Bf 110 would certainly do for a Defiant) and did not anticipate the performance or organisation of the RAF's defence. They had done just fine earlier.

During the first Gulf war the RAF implemented its low flying strike tactics, designed to defeat Eastern Block air defences and suffered initial casualties far higher than their US comrades. We were all treated to images of battered RAF air crew on the ten o'clock news.

Everyone on all sides has to adapt. Generally he who adapts best wins. The Germans adapted the versatile Bf 110 to a variety of different roles, most importantly was probably the night fighter, the majority of aircraft operated by the Nachtjagd from 1943-45 were Bf 110s. I suspect, but haven't checked, that the Bf 110 night fighters accounted for more allied bombers than any other type. This does not diminish its achievements in other roles.
In the Gulf those RAF air crew, trained at vast expense to master low level strikes flew higher. 

Cheers

Steve


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## Shortround6 (Jan 17, 2015)

You are expecting the Fw 187 to not only achieve a level of superiority over the Spitfire but to sweep the entire RAF from the skies in _any_ area within hundreds of miles of the British isles. A rather tall order. 

This condition was rarely achieved by any air force in WW II or afterwards except for a few brief periods of time. Does this mean the Spitfire failed to do it's job? Or the P-51 over Germany in 1944, early 1945? The Americans could NOT send formations of even B-26s very far without escorts until the very closing days of the war. B-29s shifted to Night attacks over Japan for a number of reasons, the heavier bomb loads they wanted to use would have forced them into lower altitudes where the Japanese fighters would would have been more effective (so would the flak).
The F-86 Sabre failed to destroy the Chinese Migs to an extent that allowed for un-escorted bombing missions near the border. "More importantly, in 1950 numbers of Soviet MiG-15 "Fagot" jet fighters appeared over Korea, and after the loss of 28 aircraft, future B-29 raids were restricted to night-only missions, largely in a supply-interdiction role."
While the F-86 didn't come close to the propaganda 10:1 kill ratio it didn't allow for the resumption of daylight bombing missions either. 

One reason the Bf 110 was kept in the line up during the BoB was that there were NOT enough 109s. 

One source claims that on Aug 10th 1940 there were 289 Bf 110 fighters and fighter bombers available In Luftflotten 2, 3 and 5 of which 224 were serviceable, granted Norway and the Battle for France had cost over 80 aircraft but I doubt that even 300 Fw 187s would have destroyed the RAF to such an extent as to allow Ju 87s to roam over southern England unmolested.


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## dedalos (Jan 17, 2015)

Shortround6 said:


> the propaganda 10:1 kill ratio it didn't allow for the resumption of daylight bombing missions either.
> 
> One reason the Bf 110 was kept in the line up during the BoB was that there were NOT enough 109s.
> 
> One source claims that on Aug 10th 1940 there were 289 Bf 110 fighters and fighter bombers available In Luftflotten 2, 3 and 5 of which 224 were serviceable, granted Norway and the Battle for France had cost over 80 aircraft but I doubt that even 300 Fw 187s would have destroyed the RAF to such an extent as to allow Ju 87s to roam over southern England unmolested.



No, 300 single Seat Fw 187 would not destroy RAF in the Air. But maybe , they could keep the losses of the bombers to acceptable levels, and bleed the raf somewhat more the 110 did. Perhaps even keeping the Ju87 in the battle.
But of course the final result would not change. LW would need at least 4 times its historical numerical strength to hope that could maintain Air superiority over the channel and the invation beeches


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## dedalos (Jan 17, 2015)

stona said:


> Any conflict is a dynamic event. As was once famously said, no plan survives first contact with the enemy.
> 
> The British envisioned their turret fighters raking formations of enemy bombers, they did not anticipate the presence of single engine escorts because they did not anticipate the fall of France.
> 
> ...



Generally i agree with your post. However the german knew the existence of spitfire from 1936. Perhaps it even influenced the choice of the BF 109.
We know that they flew test of 109 against 187. I imagine they did the same between 109 and 110. What was the result? What COULD be the result? Udet and Goering were former fighter pilots. Couldnt realise that power and wing loadings were of paramount importance? From the First flights at berlin test pilots noticed the poor manouverability of the 110
Anyway, okay, they made their choice in an era that Aviation was evolving very fast
THEY DID IT AGAIN IN 1942!!!! As i wrote earlier thats even more unbeleivable. With 3 years of war experience they asked their NEW heavy fighter to have an Internal bomb bay ant defentive turrets!!! Back to the initial zerstorcher concept of 1935 that created the FW57 and HS 124. Which the Bf 110 defeated because of its lighter weight! After 6 years instead of going forward they went back!!! Remember that in 1942 Germany did not have any reliable 1750 engine but they still went ahead with "fighters"of 11t-12t !!!!
What exactly did not anticipated??? They had 3 war years behind them!


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## GrauGeist (Jan 17, 2015)

And these were the same guys (Udet, et al) that turned their noses down at a jet fighter in 1939...

Probably because it couldn't dive bomb


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## GregP (Jan 18, 2015)

Maybe we are losing track of the original premise of what would have happened if the Fw 187 had been adpoted. If it had, I say it would have been equipped with DB 601 engines and that for every Fw 187, something else that used the DB 601 could not have been built.

Looking at political reality, had the Fw 187 been adopted, it seems likely that the people capable of adopting it would make the decision about whether or not to reduce production of the Bf 109 or the Bf 110.

These would certainly not be the same decisions that resulted in the Fw 187 being rejected in the first place, and may not have resulted in my earlier premise that the Bf 110 production would be uninterrupted. The thing is ... the HAD the Fw 187 been adpoted, SOMETHING would suffer, but tehy would gain the capabilities of the Fw 187.

Maybe we should look at what the Fw 187 could bring to the table that the planes produced in real life could not bring.

Just a suggestion, not a change in thread direction. If we were to embrace this "what-if," what would have been the results?

The first result I can think of the a British decision to counter the Fw 187, and that might mean Whirwinds with improved engines. Exactly WHAT engine, I donlt know, but the Peregrine's would have to be made good or scrapped. I do NOT believe the British would have let an Fw 187 force go unaddressed for a second. The only real quesiton would be how they would address it and what would be the likely result.

Again, not raining on anyone's parade, just suggesting we look at what could have happened had the Fw 187 been produced in numbers to be meaningful in the wartime scheme of things. 

Surely it would have been a worthy addition to the twin engine class of fighters.


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## GrauGeist (Jan 18, 2015)

I don't think anything would have changed in the historical timeline, Greg, in all honesty.

The Fw187 wouldn't have been a game-changer, it would have simply been another fighter the RAF (and later, the USAAF) would have had to deal with.

The RAF didn't buckle under when the Fw190 appeared over British skies and out-classed the Spits and Hurries, they simply continued to develop and improve the Spit, as history reflects.

For each upgrade, came the inevitable new-threat upgrade by the other side.


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## GregP (Jan 18, 2015)

I tend to agree with you entirely, Graugeist, but was trying to stir the pot of discussion. From the German perspective (and I'm not German) I think the Fw 187 would have probably been head and houlders better than the Bf 110, of which they HAD some. What that might be used to accomplish is a question of interest.

Suppose, just suppose thaht this new Luftwaffe "decision maker group" that decides to produce the Fw 187 ALSO decides that the strange and spindly towers on the British coast were a danger and used the Fw 187 force to attack and try to destroy the British radar installations. Further, suppose they had an attack of common sense and decided to change the enigma codes when the enigma machine went missing.

On such small decisions are history made.

If the Germans had changed their codes and did so at regular intervals, as common sense suggests, and had they had the Fw 187's ... then how would the Battle for the Atlantic have gone with the Allies NOT in possession of German plans and with the Germans having the Fw 187 in some numbers?

Sounds like Science Fiction, but it might have happened.

Had the Germans been flying the Fw 187 instead of the Bf 110, I believe no real change would have happened, but small circumstance changes like the engima or breaking the Japanese code might make that belief a bit ... premature. It would not take too many "setbacks" to materially affect the war. One that sends chills down my spine is what might have happened if the Germans had NOT attacked the Soviet Union.

Considering the state of Soviet readiness, had they NOT been attacked, it is likely that the Soviets would NOT have made the sweeping changes that radically improved their Air Force, and they may well NOT have been much of a factor. Had that happened, then the Germans could hjave used most of the divisions tried up on the Russian Front in Eastern Europe, and the same cna be said for the Luftwaffe. If 90% of the Luftwaffe had been engaged in Eastern Europe instead of being spread about the steppes of Russia, things might be different.

Just saying we could be looking at a few changes in German policy that would erase big historical mistakes that resulted or HELPED result in Allied victory. It would probably take more than just the Fw 187, but changing THAT dicision might also lead to more decision changes since it would be a better decision than was historically made. One better decision might lead to more.

Not suggesting a long what-if, just wondering where the "better" decisions might stop ...


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## GrauGeist (Jan 18, 2015)

Sure Greg and I'll stir the pot a little more, then...

If Wevell hadn't perished in the wreck and if Richthofen was able to promote the 187 better, then it would have most likely been accepted into the slot between the Bf109 and the Bf110...

Matter of fact, I imagine that the He280 (and the Luftwaffe overall) would have had a chance in Wevell's administration, because he was a visionary and not stuck in 1915.


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## GregP (Jan 18, 2015)

Not bad at all, Graugeist, not bad at all.

That stirs the pot.

I'm with you, though, in that I'm not sure it would have made any difference since if Hitler were to have stayed in charge, then he probably would not have listened any better to Wevell than he did to anyone else. But he might have made a difference ... not sure how much.

On to better things I suppose ...


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## l'Omnivore Sobriquet (Jan 18, 2015)

A fine pot and a fine stir, great reading again thank you all.

My alternative what-if (!!) :

- 1 : History strikes first. Wevel dies, the Udet-Goering crew takes over, no Fw-187 no He-100, and no Ural Bomber. "The Führer doesn't ask me how many engines my bombers haves, he asks me how many I can produce" : Hermann Goëring. Stuka comes in the fray, and so Bf-110. Both He-100 and Fw-187 are sent packing into a minor propaganda role, to contribute to impress Germany's weaker neighbours into submission and freeze the French and the British.
My comment : The fast powerfull and heavy twin-fighter monoplane was a novelty then, so we should 'allow' for this little mistake... One engine one man, two engines two men, with the best technology available, for both. That should give something !
As for Wevel's death and the demise of Richtoffen's line, if we need some good luck later on then let's have a little 'hard blow' to occur as it did, that's my choice.


- 2 : 1940 goes on as it went. The Bf(Me?)-210 goes on too. However people in charge to think DO think : lessons of the BofB are drawn. 
That the Stuka needed air superiority or fighter cover to operate was no news, but that the Zestörer Bf-110 needed it too !!, that should have lead to a complete review of its role. The future employ of the Bf-110 (this was done), and of future Me-210 (this wasn't), and most importantly how to fullfill that primary mission of prowling _free _well behind ennemy lines... plus the ability to escort bombers when the Bf-109 is not there.
The Zestörer needed to achieve this _on its own_, without support of course, or else, no weapon at all. Clearly the BoB had shown the Bf-110 was not up to the task.
On top of all its behviour problems, the Me-210 was also showing a lack of performances, and there was no hope of improvement there. Of course there were those wunderbar remote controlled barbettes, but could the Lufwaffe's planners really believe it would be sufficient to restore the aircraft's survivability, well alone and deep into ennemy territory against modern single engined fighters ?
The alternative was high perfomances.
So, at this stage, the mendatory lessons drawn from one year of conlict, concerning this 'destroyer' concept, especially considering the Bob and even the end of BoF, should have been : Can a twin-engined fighter with range keep on prowling free behind ennemy lines, disrupting its (mid) rear ? Which more technically could be reduced as : can a twin engined fighter compete with a single engined fighter ?

My what-if is simply at that stage that the military seriously draw lessons of one year of Zestörer employ, and put the right questions.


- 3 : Second what-if, but linked to the first. Those happy crews in Norway loudly chanting the praises of their _three _Jumo-engines Fw-187 are NOT disciplined into silence, their unit disbanded ; instead they are given quiet but thourought interviews.
The possibility of a fully modern Fw-187 operational type is seriously enquired, betting on the perfomance card.
All this of course, still as an 'alternative' or 'theorical' move, just because lessons were drawn and questions asked and possible answers, at hand, considered.

Industrial commitments are heavy affairs that can not be overturned at this date. Bf-110 goes to Russia, factories are gearing for the forthcoming Me-210. Whether a blind odrer for 1000 Me-210 is given or 'not yet', is just an option.
Fw-190 remains untouched by it all.

A fine little push of good luck here, to have everything else unfolding nicely later, would be the popping-up of some 'pilot factory' of small size, in the 'new provinces' perhaps, like a (large) school from craftsmen, technicians, applied engineers and workers, engaged in learning 'how to' transform an existing and 'frozen' type - the Fw-187 A0 that was, yes, operational in Bremen and Norway - into an actual industrial production... Small scaled of course, and slow. But for real.
Airframes (Fw-187 A0, picking stock Jumos then later the newer 187 type), engines (Db-601 directly then later Db605), machine-tools... Nice isn't it ? 
But no even necessary.

- 4 : Reallity strikes hard : What has collapsed is not Ussr... but indeed the Me-210 program. We are now into 1942. It will a long war, even if the Ussr is still believed to be beatable it will be long and painfull, there's a new guy entering the show called Usa, and Britain is clearly set on striking back .
[to be followed]


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## l'Omnivore Sobriquet (Jan 18, 2015)

[point n°4 followed]

What German planners do in 1942 with the wrecks of the Me-210 / Me-110 program is not even that important, providing they do NOT obstinate in the very large scale early plans of production.
The Fw-187 is naturally given a go, even if just as naturally it is a modest introduction in numbers. At this stage a modest, progressive production cannot be a problem, not hampering the Fw-190 in any way, and Daimler-Benz engines have to be available in sufficient numbers (thanks to the Me-210 chaos eventually.)
My guess here would be a quickly engineered 'Fw-187 AO with late marks Db601s' (if that's historically compatible), then soon enough a more reworked version with Db-605, slightly stretched wings especially at wing root to allow for Mg151 installation, 20mil or 15mil pending on availability then. 

I would have:
- A standard general purpose single seater with two early Db-605s, four 20mil guns - 2 in fuselage, 2 in wing roots, fair amount of fuel and ammunition, some modern protection. A fuselage (basically unchanged) that's still small, wing aera well harmonized with new weight and power, that should keep the compromise excellent as certainly Kurt Tank's people could. Provision for bomb racks and drop tanks under fuselage and wings. Some clever arrangment in fuselage to slip in a Bf-109 compatible camera in place of smthg else when needed.
This one should be winning a reputation in the fields.

- A long ranged "F for fern" version without the fuselage guns but petrol instead. Perhaps a program for building cheap drop tanks to go along, using non strategical materials.
Long range escorts to VLR possible, long range raids purely on Fw-187 too. New opportunities for the LF, even with little LR Bomber and little fuel for it all. Just a card on the sleeves (using Fw-200 why not.)
Good for reco as well.
Being light when not top-filled with fuel, this version would come in handy for long pursuits against those western reconnaissance intrusions, flying high and fast on changing courses deep into Germany. I'm certain just a few numbers of these, scatered accross north-western Europe and dedicated to long range pursuits with clean surface finish and well timmed engines, would have brought results that no 109 or 190 ever could, or did. A free gift that comes along.

- A variation of the former as a two-seater. Cockpit like the historical ones. Less fuel but perhaps some place found for an 'extra fuel-tank off-balance to be emptied first' somewhere back in the fuselage ?, or leading edge tanks ? to compensate. Anyway a small numbered version, to be flown by experienced 'squadron leaders' only (Staffel fürher?) The idea would have one of them leading three single-seaters along, with the man in the back-seat giving orders, checking navigation, checking the sky or the ground for boggeys, reading battle situations when it unfolded, homing, radioing fellow bombers or ground stations etc. We're talking of long ranged missions, yet of any kind. It could fit in company of standard A versions too, on normal range 'Zestörer' missions why not.
Of course with insight we know that such a two seater would be superfluous, as the 2nd part of WWII witnessed the rule of the single seaters for about everything but strategic bombing. But I think it fitted well the German doctrine of the time, still bent on the 'destroyer' independent concept, marauder of sorts. And not that silly either. One two-seater plus 3 single seaters, a dangerous package certainly... when flying Fw-187s.

- No night-fighter. Too small.
At least not until the much later 'little radar sets for single engined wild boars' (sorry I've swallowed the name) appeared, then yes, as a 1 or 2 seater, it could have given an interesting winter-time wild boar. But that's much later.

- Finally, at the wartime I am considering, there was a big fuss about testing different aircrafts to carry a heavy gun (plus armour?) for anti-tank duties. Mk-101 then Flak 37. We know both the Ju-88 and Me-110 where not dimmed satisfactory for that. Could it be that our 187... No record nor reason to claim that a Fw-187 could handle it well, such a big and heavy new task but sometimes good pupils are really astonishing.

So here we are step #4 the Fw-187 has to be put into some modest production and interesting operational introduction, just because lessons had been drawn, good questions asked and the available 'performance option' given a test run.
And by 1942 that could not be the A0 and its Jumo210 anymore, but some of the designs listed above, more or less. I maintain that Me109, Fw190 would not have suffered from its progressive introduction, while the 210/110 would have had to share something, engines at least.
We dont forget that, whatever, the Fw-187 could only remain secondary to the 109 and 190s even if top performing and proving its worth more and more in combat, because of its price.
Jumo 211 powered should be discarded as performance triggered the decision to give it a go. But for 1942 1st half, into operational squadrons, who knows.


- 5 : War drags on. The modest number of 187 have modest impact on events, but qualitatively it has to be good. Eastern front. Pilots are vocal about it, unanymous, and by the way, they survive... (and One Db-605 mechanical failure don't bring them down.) Other are getting jealous. 
Local mission planners and leaders find them most handy, effective too, and after a month they're still there.
What decision to take ? The aircraft is disruptive in a logistical point of view, requires two engines to manufcture and maintain, pilots have to be schooled for multiple engines flight, probably advanced navigation and night flying too if one is to be coherent, just what was being given up at the time... (because of fuel restriction.) Oh yes it does consumme fuel too. 
To some RLM wallies, it would have seemed that "there's nothing a Fw-187 does that a Fw-190 can't do", and 'let's forget about this over-engined sports-kite barely able to carry a handbag and concentrate on war-winning tools instead'.
It's just that it could chase Mosquitoes and PR Spitfires, and soon enough F-5s, could and would disrupt soviet supply lines at will with insolent survivability, assasinate Mediterrean Hurricanes and P-40s well into their home bases and treat the appearing American rookie Japanese style.
But appart that, it carried only 4 guns, the 190 had 2 extra mgs, with a load of bomb probably not'overstretched' yet. No way to put it into a night fighter either, the Me-110 is still needed (or eventually the Ju-88 alone, another debate.) Its industrial gearing, modest, would have been easely kileable still.

- 6 : Then comes the Mighty Eigth. And its fellow 9th too. We know that the Luftwaffe in 1942-3 already went into some wild considerations to deal with the thing. Air to air bombs, guns pods, field rockets, heavy guns, various missiles or why not armoured gliders towed into the place or even a rocket interceptor. Later on ther would be 'company front assault' in over-amoured Focke-Wulfs, exploding ill manufactured aircraft into the stream, or manned missiles, collision 'victories'...
There is no reason to think the The Fw-187, in production, would'nt have been given a glance to contribute.
The Mk-103 powerfull 30mil guns was appearing at that time too, at least in the planning stages.
Fighter escorts of the flying fortresses was still not expected above central germany, but everywhere alese it WAS already there. In Mediterreanea, and in shorter range bombing missions over occupied West Europe too.

The Fw-187 could have brought an airplane that, given the right compromise of weight, cleaneness, power and room for 'payload', could : 
- meet fighter escort on an equal basis, when and where they couldn't avoid them
- survive the intense defensive fire from the American boxs at least to a decent range, a little time presence, not more
- hammer a _viermot _bomber fast with decisive results. Good punch, right weapons, good aiming.
- have the range to escape soon enough, manoeuvre the escort and if not too damaged come round again, with similar odds of survivability and efficiency or else go back home safely.

To achieve this : 
- Get the latest Db-605s, 1943-brand for this one,
- increase just what it takes of wing aera for warfare at high altitude, 
- do add armour for pilot (on sides too), and other carefully chosen parts (ammo). One cannot put too much yet just enough to deflect the first Browning bullets 'at mid range' (whatever that means?), letting the pilot concentrate on singling-out his target and tuning his aim, with little damage at this point to do it again. Then of course if he presses on his charge some damage cannot be avoided. Just the right amount of protection from all quarters.
- make room in the fuselage for one single Mk-103, protruding under belly, and retain wing root 20mils and given them all ample munitions.
- pressurizing the cockpit for comfort why not ? after all a new canopy had to be designed, and cockpit structure reviewed to allow for some integrated armour.

That's it. Then it's all a matter of finding the good compromise for these elements. But it could have been found. 
American pressure sure would have helped.

A variation of the above for the night Wild Boar missions, especially at winter times (when single engined did suffer and in fact disappear), with that small radar set that got installed llater even on Fw-190s, and perhaps a second crew member depending on other factors. Not too good news for the Bomber Command either.

And then, here we have, a Fw-187 soldiering on until the very end.

Just another threat that the allies would have had to deal with, as well written in a previous post.
With the final result absolutely unchanged.

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## stona (Jan 18, 2015)

dedalos said:


> No, 300 single Seat Fw 187 would not destroy RAF in the Air. But maybe , they could keep the losses of the bombers to acceptable levels, and bleed the raf somewhat more the 110 did. Perhaps even keeping the Ju87 in the battle.



No chance, and that is not because of the types of aircraft used but how they were used. The Luftwaffe's tactics, organisation, communications and intelligence were not up to the task, just to mention some of the problems. 

Goering thought in 1945 that the Bob had been fought to a draw, as do many modern historians. That is not what the surviving Luftwaffe pilots thought at the time. They felt they had been beaten. Having a different aircraft (if DB powered this means fewer of the other two principal types) would not have altered that.

The Fw 187 would not have outclassed the British fighters. It might have drawn squadrons outside 11 Group into the battle by dint of its superior range. That would have made Leigh-Mallory, Bader and the rest of 12 Group happy men. 

Cheers

Steve


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## stona (Jan 18, 2015)

dedalos said:


> However the german knew the existence of spitfire from 1936. Perhaps it even influenced the choice of the BF 109.



The development contract for the Bf 109 was issued to BFW in February 1934. The contract for the Supermarine Type 300 was issued almost a year later on 5th January 1935. This is also the time when the first Supermarine drawings which are recognisably Spitfire first appeared. 

The Bf 109 development was underway before the Spitfire. The Bf 109 V1 FLEW only four months after the Spitfire (Type 300) first appeared on paper! The Germans would have been aware of the Spitfire after it first flew. K5054 famously took to the air on 5th March 1936, nearly a year after the Bf 109 V1.

Cheers

Steve


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## Shortround6 (Jan 18, 2015)

An early Fw 187 has several things going for it and few going against. The extra power over the Jumo 210 engines would certainly help level speed ( but not to the extent the DB powered prototype showed) and climb and the ability to _sustain_ speed in a turn. Unfortunately the 600-800kg increase in empty and loaded weights are going to raise the wing loading to around 40lbs per square ft ( with full fuel) so _some_ of the maneuverability the Jumo powered 187A-0s enjoyed is going to go away. 
The 109 gained over 400kg _empty_ going from the Jumo 210 engine to the DB 601 (E-1 with four 7.9mmg). Since the Fw 187 was pretty much _designed_ for the DB engines and used Jumo 210s due to a lack of DB engines we can probably _assume_ the structure supporting the engine mounts and landing gear and such were built heavy enough to take the bigger engines and the weight increase will be a bit less than double what the weight increase was for the 109.

If anybody had _good_ figures for the weight increase for 110 when it shifted to the DB engines that would be good. But we need either both planes empty weight or both planes empty equipped. 

It might be instructive to go back and look at the P-38 also. The P-38 was pretty fast with it's 1100-1150hp engines but it was fast high up (over 20,000ft) due to the turbos. At low level it was fast but not the to the extent that max speeds indicate. A P-38D was good for 322mph at 5,000ft. A MK II Spitfire was good for 306mph using 9lbs boost. at 20,000ft the difference is 25mph. But then the P-38 could make 1150hp per engine at over 20,000ft (intake temperature permitting).
BTW a Spitfire I using 12lbs boost can outrun an Early P-38 at low altitude. 

Our DB 601A-1 powered FW 187 is making 1020PS (1005/6 hp)at 4500 meters ( 14850ft) without ram, at 6000 meters it is down to about 850PS per engine and at 8000 meters (26500ft) it is down to around 660-670PS. Early P-38 could pull 950hp per engine at 2600rpm at 26,000ft. It was limited by the inter-cooler so trying to use 3000 rpm wasn't going to gain much. 

Peak speed for the FW 187 DB 601A-1 powered is going to be around 5,000meters, give or take a bit due to RAM. Spitfire II hit peak speed at 17750 ft (about 5380 meters). 

The FW 187 is going to be a lot better with the DB engines than with the Jumos but it is expecting a LOT for it to sweep Spitfires from the skies in the numbers needed to really change anything. 

Of course as the DB engines get better the Fw 187 would have gotten better but then it's opponents were getting better also.


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## dedalos (Jan 18, 2015)

t


stona said:


> No chance, and that is not because of the types of aircraft used but how they were used. The Luftwaffe's tactics, organisation, communications and intelligence were not up to the task, just to mention some of the problems.
> *You do have a point on this*
> 
> Goering thought in 1945 that the Bob had been fought to a draw, as do many modern historians. That is not what the surviving Luftwaffe pilots thought at the time. They felt they had been beaten. Having a different aircraft (if DB powered this means fewer of the other two principal types) would not have altered that.
> ...


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## stona (Jan 18, 2015)

The Luftwaffe could have caused far more damage to Fighter Command with the aircraft it had given better intelligence, tactics, communications etc. It didn't need a Fw 187 to do this.

I don't agree that any THEORETICAL service version of the Fw 187 in 1940 would have had an edge on the RAF's Spitfire I. Nobody knows because a fully equipped service version of the Fw 187 never existed. Quoting figures for the DB 601 powered prototype, which was little more than an experimental flying test bed, just doesn't work for me.
The single seat version was ditched by the RLM on 20th January 1937, long before the war and shouldn't enter into consideration. The only possible version after that would have been a two seat 'destroyer'.
We'll just agree to differ .

Cheers

Steve


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## GregP (Jan 18, 2015)

Hey Viking85,

Looks like everyone more or less agrees that the Fw 187 could probably have been a German P-38, but we're not all that much in agreement as to whether it would make any difference to the outcome of the war.

I think EVERYBODY recognizes that a DB-powered Fw 187 was a better heavy fighter than the Bf 110. It's the details of the Fw 187's potential versatility and what would have been missing had it been produced that seem to be the sticky points.


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## wiking85 (Jan 18, 2015)

GregP said:


> Hey Viking85,
> 
> Looks like everyone is agree that the Fw 187 could probably have been a German P-38, but we're not all that much in agreement as to whether it would make any difference to the outcome of the war.
> 
> I think EVERYBODY recognizes that a DB-powered Fw 187 was a better heavy fighter than the Bf 110. It's the details of the Fw 187's potential versatility and what would have been missing had it been produced that seem to be the sticky points.



Fair enough. I didn't think it would change the outcome, one piece of equipment rarely will (unless its the A-bomb). Still it would be an improvement over what was there.


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## spicmart (Jan 18, 2015)

I think the DH 103 Hornet is what the Fw 187 would have evolved into if had been given the time to be developed further. It compares better to the 187 than the P-38 does as it is not a twin boom configuration. The fuselages virtually have the same dimensions being just as sleek.
At the time the Hornet appeared it could be transformed into a night fighter. The equipment has been fitted in it. Maybe the 187 could be, too.


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## GregP (Jan 18, 2015)

LOVE the Hornet! It is one seriously good-looking plane with a wonderful excess of power. Wish we had some around the warbird circuit today!


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## wuzak (Jan 18, 2015)

spicmart said:


> I think the DH 103 Hornet is what the Fw 187 would have evolved into if had been given the time to be developed further.



In the Luftwaffe's dreams.




spicmart said:


> It compares better to the 187 than the P-38 does as it is not a twin boom configuration. The fuselages virtually have the same dimensions being just as sleek.



I thought the dimensions would be the more important part, not the configuration.




spicmart said:


> At the time the Hornet appeared it could be transformed into a night fighter. The equipment has been fitted in it. Maybe the 187 could be, too.



Remember that the NF.21 was a post war aircraft, meaning that its radar equipment was, most probably, smaller and lighter than war time radar.

The cockpit of the Fw 187 was a seriously tight space.

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/PippinBill/5614.jpg

So I doubt that any useful radar could be fitted. They could change the fuselage to fit radar, but then it would be a virtually new aircraft.


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## Shortround6 (Jan 18, 2015)

spicmart said:


> I think the DH 103 Hornet is what the Fw 187 would have evolved into if had been given the time to be developed further. It compares better to the 187 than the P-38 does as it is not a twin boom configuration. The fuselages virtually have the same dimensions being just as sleek.
> At the time the Hornet appeared it could be transformed into a night fighter. The equipment has been fitted in it. Maybe the 187 could be, too.



A problem with the 187 _as built_ is that the main fuel tank was right behind the cockpit. 620 liters on the V4 and around 880 liters for some of the later proposed versions, two more tanks were in the wing roots. 245 liters each on the V4 and 210 liters each for the proposed versions. This helps roll performance compared to a plane with most of it's fuel in the wings but limits how much _stuff_ you can stick in the fuselage for other roles. The Hornet did have a fuel tank in the fuselage behind the pilot but it wasn't the main tank, most of the fuel in the Hornet was in a series of wing tanks. 







Hornet nightfighter had the radar operator quite a ways back in the fuselage




Counter balance for the weight of radar equipment in the new nose or????
Radar operator was about where the normal radio gear was or camera location for recon versions. Early war German cameras were much larger than British cameras. I am not getting into an argument on which was better but an early war German recon plane needed a certain amount of volume (space) to hold the _standard_ camera/s. The standard large German camera also went about 160lbs (73KG ?) so was a little harder to place in an aircraft due to CG problems. 

Luftwaffe Cameras

Perhaps a Fw 187 recon plane could have used a smaller fuselage tank and more internal wing tanks but the more changes you make between different versions they more expensive they get.


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## stona (Jan 19, 2015)

The Hornet was designed for and had six times the power of the Jumo powered Fw 187. There would certainly have been serious problems involved in adapting the Fw 187 airframe to that. I doubt that would be a feasible 'evolution'. Better to start again with a better airframe.
Cheers
Steve


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## tomo pauk (Jan 19, 2015)

Hornet's engines were 3 times as powerful as Jumo 210s, not 6 times  
It's wing was some 20% greater than the Fw-187, the fuel volume/weight 50-100% greater than the Fw-187. The later, with DB 605ASM or 605D should be a contender.


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## dedalos (Jan 19, 2015)

stona said:


> The Hornet was designed for and had six times the power of the Jumo powered Fw 187. There would certainly have been serious problems involved in adapting the Fw 187 airframe to that. I doubt that would be a feasible 'evolution'. Better to start again with a better airframe.
> Cheers
> Steve


The Bf 109 airframe started with 600 ps and ended with 2000 ps with minor airframe modifications. Why Fw 187 would not be able tofollow the same path?
Besides , Fw did produce design of the 187 with db605 and judged the airframe capable of speeds of 700 ++ km/h


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## spicmart (Jan 19, 2015)

> Remember that the NF.21 was a post war aircraft, meaning that its radar equipment was, most probably, smaller and lighter than war time radar.
> 
> The cockpit of the Fw 187 was a seriously tight space.
> 
> ...




The Hornet's Cockpit looks just as tight. Concerning the smaller radar equipment that's what I meant that it could have been build into the 187.




Shortround6 said:


> A problem with the 187 _as built_ is that the main fuel tank was right behind the cockpit. 620 liters on the V4 and around 880 liters for some of the later proposed versions, two more tanks were in the wing roots. 245 liters each on the V4 and 210 liters each for the proposed versions. This helps roll performance compared to a plane with most of it's fuel in the wings but limits how much _stuff_ you can stick in the fuselage for other roles. The Hornet did have a fuel tank in the fuselage behind the pilot but it wasn't the main tank, most of the fuel in the Hornet was in a series of wing tanks.
> 
> View attachment 282340
> 
> ...



The late war Doras and Ta 152 did or at least were planned to have wing tanks. Why this shouldn't be possible with their stablemate 187?




stona said:


> The Hornet was designed for and had six times the power of the Jumo powered Fw 187. There would certainly have been serious problems involved in adapting the Fw 187 airframe to that. I doubt that would be a feasible 'evolution'. Better to start again with a better airframe.
> Cheers
> Steve




See dedalos' post.




tomo pauk said:


> Hornet's engines were 3 times as powerful as Jumo 210s, not 6 times
> It's wing was some 20% greater than the Fw-187, the fuel volume/weight 50-100% greater than the Fw-187. The later, with DB 605ASM or 605D should be a contender.



The Hornet had a wing area of 33,5 m^2, the 187 30,6 m^2


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## tomo pauk (Jan 19, 2015)

Indeed you're right re. wing areas, my bad.

About the wing tanks, Fw 187 have had a substantial wing for a fighter. Stuffing some fuel tanks in the wings should not be the problem. P-38 gained 400+ liters in the outer wing LE.


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## spicmart (Jan 19, 2015)

By incorporating wing tanks the fuselage tank could be reduced or omitted thus making space for other stuff e.g. sufficient weaponry etc..
And the night fighter versions of the Hornet needed a lenghtened nose for the radar. So that should be possible for the Fw 187, too.


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## Shortround6 (Jan 19, 2015)

Adding fuel tanks to existing wings was certainly possible. It just wasn't as easy as some people believe. P-38 was kind of a special case as the leading edge from the engine nacelle to the wing tip had been used for the inter cooler and Lockheed did change the form of construction of the leading edge. 

http://legendsintheirowntime.com/Content/1944/P38_Av_4408_DA_leading-edge_p131_W.png

Other planes may have needed one or more ribs taken out and suitable reinforcements (including heavier wing skin) used around the tank area. 

While the Spitfire added leading edge tanks it was only done to Spitfires done in certain factories, Other factories (or one?) stayed with the original wing until end of production.


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## spicmart (Jan 19, 2015)

I just assume that the radar equipment of the Fw 187 is just 
as small as the Hornet's. The Hornet's nose had to be lenghtened
for the radar. Why shouldn't that be possible for the 187?

The Ta 152 c and H had a shortened wing spar in order to make space for the
Wing tanks. The rest of the wings were reinforced by more ribs and had more rugged skin.


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## wuzak (Jan 19, 2015)

The Germans were behind on centimetric AI radar.

The Sea Hornet's radar was a late war development, and it was a smaller radar of lesser capability than the ones used in the Mosquito and Black Widow.

The Germans won't have an equivalent before the end of the war.


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## wuzak (Jan 19, 2015)

spicmart said:


> The Hornet's Cockpit looks just as tight. Concerning the smaller radar equipment that's what I meant that it could have been build into the 187.



At least all the engine instruments for the Hornet are in the cockpit.


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## tomo pauk (Jan 19, 2015)

German ww2 radar will have to have the 'antlers' antennae, bar a token number of 'Berlin' radars that appeared as ww2 drew to the end. For the second crew member (I'm not the greatest fan of a 2-seater Fw-187, but it sure beats the Fw 190 as a night fighter), maybe devise an 'elevated' cockpit, not unlike what the Do-335 had? Granted, it will cost performance-wise, but should leave a bit more room for the 'black boxes'? Also gives more room for the radar operator?
Relocating more fuel in the wings should free more space in the fuselage.


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## spicmart (Jan 19, 2015)

wuzak said:


> The Germans were behind on centimetric AI radar.
> 
> The Sea Hornet's radar was a late war development, and it was a smaller radar of lesser capability than the ones used in the Mosquito and Black Widow.
> 
> The Germans won't have an equivalent before the end of the war.




I am just assuming that they hypothetically have similar radar equipment to make them equal in this point.




wuzak said:


> At least all the engine instruments for the Hornet are in the cockpit.




Maybe some modification of spacial nature to the nose could have helped the Fw 187 to have in-cockpit-instruments. Some little but sufficient change to not affect the aerodynamics adversely of course. It perhaps would have resulted in blunder or longer nose but with the same frontal cross section.


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## spicmart (Jan 19, 2015)

Looking closely the nose of the Hornet actually is a bit spacier and blunder than the Fw 187's so a change of cockpit section should be doable.
Btw does anybody know if the cockpit control mechanics for an aeroplane did get smaller in size as the war tech lept forward?


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## wuzak (Jan 19, 2015)

tomo pauk said:


> German ww2 radar will have to have the 'antlers' antennae, bar a token number of 'Berlin' radars that appeared as ww2 drew to the end. For the second crew member (I'm not the greatest fan of a 2-seater Fw-187, but it sure beats the Fw 190 as a night fighter), maybe devise an 'elevated' cockpit, not unlike what the Do-335 had? Granted, it will cost performance-wise, but should leave a bit more room for the 'black boxes'? Also gives more room for the radar operator?
> Relocating more fuel in the wings should free more space in the fuselage.



The raised cockpit version of teh Do 335 was the trainer. The night fighter had a flush second canopy over the radar operator's position:

V10profil.jpg Photo by desmoloic | Photobucket


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## Shortround6 (Jan 19, 2015)

spicmart said:


> I am just assuming that they hypothetically have similar radar equipment to make them equal in this point.



What matters is what equipment the Luftwaffe actually had and at least up until the end of the war they thought the 3 seat cockpit of 110 was cramped, they didn't like the cockpit of the He 219 because they considered it too small. With the Fw 187 cockpit being even smaller it doesn't really matter what the British did or didn't do with their equipment or what they may have considered as 'satisfactory' cockpit space. FW and Kurt Tank could 'propose' night fighter variants all they wanted, it doesn't mean the Luftwaffe was going to accept them. 



spicmart said:


> Maybe some modification of spacial nature to the nose could have helped the Fw 187 to have in-cockpit-instruments. Some little but sufficient change to not affect the aerodynamics adversely of course. It perhaps would have resulted in blunder or longer nose but with the same cross section.



The Fw 187 had 6 instruments on each engine cowl, Longer nose is not going to help put additional dials in the instrument panel. 

Fw 187 instrument panel
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/al...19928-focke-wulf-fw-187-falke-cockpit-01.html

Bf 110 instrument panel






go here for picture of one radar set up in a Bf 110 for Lichtenstein SN-2b

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/-1...-messerschmitt-bf-110-2-fw-build-29238-6.html

Granted only the top row of boxes is the radar boxes, the other two rows being the radio and RDF equipment.


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## spicmart (Jan 20, 2015)

All I want is to show/speculate if the Fw 187 had the potential and modification ability to become the german equivalent to the Hornet. If it is historically possible to have happened or not for whatever reason I exclude. 
Most of the modifications seem feasible just the cockpit arrangement seems to be more difficult. 
Not just by making the nose longer but blunter also could make room for more instruments _maybe_.


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## tomo pauk (Jan 20, 2015)

wuzak said:


> The raised cockpit version of teh Do 335 was the trainer. The night fighter had a flush second canopy over the radar operator's position:
> 
> V10profil.jpg Photo by desmoloic | Photobucket



The 'net search for the Do 335A-6 yields pictures for aircraft with the 'elevated' second cockpit.From what I can gather, only the prototype have had second cockpit laying flush.


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## wuzak (Jan 20, 2015)

There were no A-6s actually built.

V10 was the prototype A-6 Night Fighter. It had the flush window I described earlier.

V17 was the prototype B-6 Night Fighter version. It too had the flush window.

This picture is labelled V17, but it is so grainey you can't really tell.






from Prototypes.com/Le Dornier Do-335 et ses dérivés/II. Description du Do-335

You can just make out the second cockpit canopy next to the man standing on the wing. It appears if the slide window in the canopy is open.

A quick glance through Smith and Creek, _Dornier Do 335 Arrow_ reveals that the radar operator's canopy was to be blown for the A-6 (presumably B-6 too - but I didn't find that), as in this model:






And not dissimilar to the Sea Hornet NF21's radar position.


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## Shortround6 (Jan 20, 2015)

spicmart said:


> All I want is to show/speculate if the Fw 187 had the potential and modification ability to become the german equivalent to the Hornet. If it is historically possible to have happened or not for whatever reason I exclude.
> Most of the modifications seem feasible just the cockpit arrangement seems to be more difficult.



To get the Fw 187 to be _equivalent_ to the Hornet you are trying to take a 1937/38 aircraft and turn it into a 1944 aircraft. This rather ignores any and all advances in construction techniques, materials and aerodynamics made in those years.

A Hornet was _not_ a smaller, single seat Mosquito. It used a different form of wing construction ( metal leading edges,part metal spars and metal top surfaces for one thing) and a different airfoil (similar to the Vampire) among other things. 

*IF* you modified and FW 187 _enough_ it may equal the Hornet, but since the FW 187 was _designed_ to use DB 600 engines, forced to use Jumo 210s by engine shortage and only one was flown with a set of experimental DB 601 engines and anything after that were paper projects (not even wood mock ups?) it gets very fuzzy indeed as to what a 1944-46 Fw 187 could or could not do. Or wither a 1944-46 FW 187 would have very much in common with a 1938-40 FW 187.


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## tomo pauk (Jan 20, 2015)

Maybe someone would know what kind of wing profile was used on the Fw 187?


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## dedalos (Jan 20, 2015)

tomo pauk said:


> Maybe someone would know what kind of wing profile was used on the Fw 187?




The one million dollasr question. Unfortunately the Fw 187 book by hermann, at least the english vertion, mention nothing


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## dedalos (Jan 20, 2015)

Shortround6 said:


> To get the Fw 187 to be _equivalent_ to the Hornet you are trying to take a 1937/38 aircraft and turn it into a 1944 aircraft. This rather ignores any and all advances in construction techniques, materials and aerodynamics made in those years.
> 
> A Hornet was _not_ a smaller, single seat Mosquito. It used a different form of wing construction ( metal leading edges,part metal spars and metal top surfaces for one thing) and a different airfoil (similar to the Vampire) among other things.
> 
> *IF* you modified and FW 187 _enough_ it may equal the Hornet, but since the FW 187 was _designed_ to use DB 600 engines, forced to use Jumo 210s by engine shortage and only one was flown with a set of experimental DB 601 engines and anything after that were paper projects (not even wood mock ups?) it gets very fuzzy indeed as to what a 1944-46 Fw 187 could or could not do. Or wither a 1944-46 FW 187 would have very much in common with a 1938-40 FW 187.



No, prototypes V5 and V7 were well advanced in convertion to DB605 by 31/8/42 when RLM cancelled the Project. Also a mock up was well advanced
The Fw 187 C was not just a re engine A series .It was a little longer, with some stronger parts, and various other minor modifications

According to herman the single Seat Fw 187C would be 4905kgr empty weight-6050kgr normal take off weight
I believe hornet was somewhat heavier


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## spicmart (Jan 20, 2015)

Shortround6 said:


> To get the Fw 187 to be _equivalent_ to the Hornet you are trying to take a 1937/38 aircraft and turn it into a 1944 aircraft. This rather ignores any and all advances in construction techniques, materials and aerodynamics made in those years.
> 
> A Hornet was _not_ a smaller, single seat Mosquito. It used a different form of wing construction ( metal leading edges,part metal spars and metal top surfaces for one thing) and a different airfoil (similar to the Vampire) among other things.
> 
> *IF* you modified and FW 187 _enough_ it may equal the Hornet, but since the FW 187 was _designed_ to use DB 600 engines, forced to use Jumo 210s by engine shortage and only one was flown with a set of experimental DB 601 engines and anything after that were paper projects (not even wood mock ups?) it gets very fuzzy indeed as to what a 1944-46 Fw 187 could or could not do. Or wither a 1944-46 FW 187 would have very much in common with a 1938-40 FW 187.




Afaik practically all or at least most of the major propeller driven combat aircraft types that participated in the war were pre-war design. P-51 Mustang was one exception.
And most of them seemed to have enough stretch to stay competitive until the end. The most famous being the Spitfire and Me 109, both 1935 designs.
Both taking ever stronger engines with little airframe modification.
As said the DB 605 was to be used for the Fw 187 so the question of being designed for a strong enough engine or not can be dropped.
The Westland Whirlwind however was more limited in its development potential.
As advanced as it was the Hornet was still partly built of wood what could be a disdavantage weight wise. The metal building method should still have advantages in structural integrity also.


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## spicmart (Jan 20, 2015)

It could be an advantage if a plane has time to get develepod and the bugs sorted out.


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## Shortround6 (Jan 20, 2015)

spicmart said:


> Afaik practically all or at least most of the major propeller driven combat aircraft types that participated in the war were pre-war design. P-51 Mustang was one exception.
> And most of them seemed to have enough strech to stay competitive until the end. The most famous being the Spitfire and Me 109, both 1935 designs.



There are others but another poster was trying to compare an upgraded Fw 187 to the DH Hornet and while the Hornet didn't fly until 1944 it also didn't enter service until 1946. 
The FW 187 might very well equal a P-38 or other twin of it's time. Trying to equal one designed a number of years later is something else. 
One can also look at the Douglas A-20 and A-26 bombers, designed by the same company and flown 3 1/2 years apart. ( A-26 flying in July 1942) While there is a strong family resemblance the A-26 used different wing construction, different airfoil (laminar flow as it was known at the time) and double slotted flaps (first plane to go into service using them) among other things. Douglas knew enough to switch to newer advances rather than keep trying to modify an old design after 1940/41(A-20s did get minor modifications but no new wings, new engines (after 1940)(different types) or major fuselage changes. XA-26 weighed almost double what the Prototype DB-7 did empty. It weighed around 2 tons more empty than the DB-7 did at max gross.

The FW 187 was being redesigned to use DB605 engines of 1475 HP (or PS?) which is all well and good but to be equivalent to a Hornet the FW 187 would have needed late model DB 605 engines like DB/DC. Possible but another variable. 

I have Hermann's book and there seems to be a fair amount of "cheerleading" going on but many books about quite a number of different planes do the same thing (very few authors approach their subject matter by saying plane XXX was a piece of crap).

For instance on Page 126 it says that FW _estimated_ that 373,700 engineering hours and 223,500 man hours would be needed to _design_ the FW 187C and bring it to production. July 20th 1942 sees the development contract received. Mock up/s start construction Aug 4 1942. Work was 'halted' on Aug 31 1942 and FW is supposed to have estimated 26,640 engineering hours and 6,470 man hours having been invested in modifying the two prototypes up until that time (page 134). Granted a lot of the engineering and man hours were probably for the design and construction of production tooling but the state of the 'conversion' of the two prototypes might be a matter of interpretation. One of the 'modifications' was changing the wing sweep in the leading edge of the wing (compared to the A-0 series but not the V7) and another was lengthening the fuselage by about 1 meter. Other planes certainly underwent modifications in early stages but this is what makes _estimating_ performance for later versions of the FW 187 so hard. A lot of things changed on the plane.



> The Westland Whirlwind however was more limited in its development potential.



Of course it did, it was a much smaller airplane. It had a wing the same sq ft as a Defiant and smaller than a Hurricane. It had a max take-off wight (with bombs) about 500kg more than a FW 190D-9. 
Somebody might have proposed a twin Merlin version but that version would have had some _major_ changes. 
I like the Whirlwind and think it got a bad deal but without major changes (jack up canopy and slide new airplane under it) it was _never_ going to be in the P-38, Bf 110, FW 187 class.


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## GregP (Jan 20, 2015)

The Fw 187 could certainly have been made to be a very good fighter twin. What its development potential might have been is a good question, but it almost certianly could have fulfilled roles other than as a heavy fighter. I say that as ALL of the heavy fighters DID fulfill other roles in their combat lifetimes.

The Mosquito was very adaptable. The P-38 was very adaptable. Even the A-20 became a night fighter. The Bf 110 flew in very many roles, as did the Ju 88.

I cannot believe the Fw 187, as good as it looks on paper and during the small operational uses it got, would prove to be incapable of being adapted to other roles.


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## tomo pauk (Jan 22, 2015)

It is interesting that Fw 187 (as-is) have had less power than the Westland Whirlwind at altitude, something like 2 x 250 HP deficit. The Jumo 210 was providing less power at altitude than the RR Kestrels 'fully supercharged' marks, those providing 640-745 HP at 14500 ft; data for 87 oct fuel. No wonder re. power deficit, it was 19 L engine vs. 21 L engine.
One wonders how well an 'early Whirlwind' with 2 x 740 HP Kestrels would've fared in BoB, with or without 100 oct fuel


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## GregP (Jan 22, 2015)

While I've always liked the Whirlwind design, I've also always thought it would prove "interesting" and maybe dangerous in single-engine operation, particularly in the landing pattern. Perhaps what was needed was a good, reliable engine, not necessarily the most powerful one.


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## wuzak (Jan 22, 2015)

I wonder if the Merlin XX supercharger section could have been fitted to the Peregrine, allowing for more power at altitude without having the physical size and weight problems of fitting the Merlin.


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## GregP (Jan 22, 2015)

Interesting notion. Perhaps. 

I've always wondered why they didn't do that with an Allison, too, with an adapter plate.


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## Denniss (Jan 23, 2015)

tomo pauk said:


> It is interesting that Fw 187 (as-is) have had less power than the Westland Whirlwind at altitude, something like 2 x 250 HP deficit. The Jumo 210 was providing less power at altitude than the RR Kestrels 'fully supercharged' marks, those providing 640-745 HP at 14500 ft; data for 87 oct fuel. No wonder re. power deficit, it was 19 L engine vs. 21 L engine.
> One wonders how well an 'early Whirlwind' with 2 x 740 HP Kestrels would've fared in BoB, with or without 100 oct fuel


According to (static?) engine chart the Jumo 210D/E provided 500 PS at 4500 m (~14700 feet). 210G may have provided 10-30PS more.


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## tomo pauk (Jan 23, 2015)

Indeed you're right. The chart for the Jumo 210 D/E is provided here.

Hmm - maybe we could be suspicious that often quoted speed figure of ~530 km/h for the Fw 187A is for an unarmed prototype? Against the Whirlwind (560 km/h*), it sports more than a 1/3rd power disadvantage at ~5 km (both engines with ram), and it is a bigger aircraft. 
Hopefully someone could provide factory data with more details about actual weight, state, engine power, performance figures achieved?

* added: not 560, but 580 km/h, as noted by Vincenzo


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## Vincenzo (Jan 23, 2015)

G had 50 ps more for take off,
Whirlwind commonly was give a 360 mph max speed, around 580 km/h


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## tomo pauk (Jan 23, 2015)

Thanks. I'll add the correction to the above post.


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## Denniss (Jan 23, 2015)

Wiki quotes 575-580 at 15k feet for the Whirlwind and 525-530 at 13.8k feet for the Fw 187. The Fw 187's Jumos developed their max power close to this alt, the Peregrine is somewhat difficult to classify. A 1942 fligh global article claims 885hp at 3k feet, Wiki 885hp at 10k feet.
Both empty weight and loaded weight seem to be similar for the two. The rather big wing of the Fw 187 may have an influence too.

Jumo 210G is quoted as having 730 PS but it should be in an altitude area similar to that of the earlier 210D. AFAIR the supercharger was not changed apart from minor tunings.


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## tomo pauk (Jan 23, 2015)

For Peregrine, it would be 885 HP at 15000 ft, using 3000 rpm and 6.75 psi boost. Kindly provided by our forum member:







The Fw-187 was rather fast for the HP installed - above 10000 ft, both Spitfire and Hurricane have had about the same power, while being smaller and without engines on the wings.


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## Denniss (Jan 23, 2015)

Found aircraft profile 191 book which states Whirlwind speeds at light load (I assume fighter load at ~10,500 lbs):
315 mph at 5k, 335 at 10k, 360 at 15k and 350 at 20k.

So Whirly had much better alt performace. But I'm still unsure how much alt performance was gained in the Jumo 210G vs the Jumo 210D. Plus how much power is gained from rammed air.
If the Fw 187 speed was real then it must have been an aerodynamically very efficient aircraft and/or the Jumo 210G is much better at height than the 210D.


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## tomo pauk (Jan 23, 2015)

The Fw 187 sported the one-per-cylinder layout of exhaust stacks, those should offer a bit better percentage of exhaust thrust per HP/speed/altitude than the 'masked' exhaust of the Whirly (that have had better HP, especialy at altitude). The Whirly would've gained extra MPH with same type of exhausts, even just discarding the 'masks'?
Of course, the power graph for the 210G would be appreciated. The von Ghersdorf et al state that 210G was making 670 PS at 3800 m (Kampfleistung, 2600 rpm), that is a substantial gain vs. the 210 D/E. Same source gives 730 PS for take off power (2700 rpm, 1.27 ata). In light of this, the speed of ~530 km/h for the Fw 187 looks plausible.


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## wuzak (Jan 23, 2015)

If you use the cube rule, giving the Fw 187 the same power will give it about the same speed as the Whirlwind.


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## tomo pauk (Jan 23, 2015)

Maybe - the Peregrine have had a greater FTH than the 210G, by some 700 m (more than 2000 ft), so it will be in advantage at higher altitudes. We also don't know how much the Peregrine was making at +12 psi boost, that will also make it faster at lower altitudes.

My favorite proposal - give it the Czech-produced HS 12Ycrs engines (~850 HP) and it is in the ballpark with 109E, if not with Whirly and Spit I/II. The 12Y engines were not that heavy as DB 601, that can be used on other aircraft.

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## spicmart (Sep 23, 2018)

It''s been a while but in this thread it has been said that because of the Fw 187 is quite some years older than the DH Hornet it would be unlikely to have enough development potential to ever be theoretically able to achieve the latter's level of performance.
But consider that it is a plane made out of wood, at least partly. Before the Mosquito a wooden high performance airplane was almost unthinkable. 

And why do you think that the P-38 could nor be in the same class as the Hornet? With similar dimensions and the engines it could be. Granted it was aerodynamically not as refined but neither was the Tigercat.


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## Shortround6 (Sep 23, 2018)

Not sure what you are getting at.

But a lot depends on how much you can modify something and still have it be what it started as, You could take part of the Fw 187 canopy and the throttle levers and build a new wing, new fuselage, new tail and fit it with new engines and landing gear and call it a FW 187, just "developed". But there is no possible way to estimate the possible performance of such a hypothetical aircraft. 

For the P-38 to equal the Hornet it needs a new wing (to get away from the compressibility problems) and a new lower drag cooling system, and new, higher powered engines and new props to handle the higher power and probably a few things I left out. Is it still a P-38 or is it a P-49 or a P-XXX

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## tomo pauk (Sep 23, 2018)

Shortround6 said:


> ...
> For the P-38 to equal the Hornet it needs a new wing (to get away from the compressibility problems) and a new lower drag cooling system, and new, higher powered engines and new props to handle the higher power and probably a few things I left out. Is it still a P-38 or is it a P-49 or a P-XXX



The YP-38 was tested with 20% longer chord wing inner section (that was suggested to house radiators, so that solves another problem) and more sloped windcreen a canopy alltogether. With other minor improvement, speed up to some 460 mph was judged possible by NACA.
link
Engine power increase was already happening.

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## spicmart (Sep 26, 2018)

Shortround6 said:


> But a lot depends on how much you can modify something and still have it be what it started as, You could take part of the Fw 187 canopy and the throttle levers and build a new wing, new fuselage, new tail and fit it with new engines and landing gear and call it a FW 187, just "developed". But there is no possible way to estimate the possible performance of such a hypothetical aircraft.



Shortround. Yes. It would be hard to predict. But as most WW designs did show "stretch" in one way or the other, one might assume that such a "development" would have been feasible.


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## spicmart (Sep 30, 2019)

Moved.


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## Kevin J (Oct 9, 2019)

My preference is the Fw 187 built 1939 onwards in Bohemia using Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs. Should be good for 360 mph. Now that would have come as a nasty surprise to the RAF in the Battle of Britain. It would have allowed the Luftwaffe to escort their bombers effectively across the UK. I'm sure the Germans could even have persuaded the French to develop the 12Z during the war to keep the Fw 187 competitive. So big problems not only for Fighter but also Bomber Command.


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## nuuumannn (Oct 9, 2019)

Kevin J said:


> So big problems not only for Fighter but also Bomber Command.



In the immediate event of the aircraft going into service, but as I've said about the introduction of the Fw 187 in other threads, you can definitely count on the British to retaliate with quickness, as they did with the introduction of the Fw 190, if the Fw 187 is the threat you're perceiving it to be.

I would pick that immediately there would be panic in the Air Ministry that could possibly lead to a two-speed, two-stage Merlin being put into production and service in a fighter earlier than what it traditionally was. I doubt the Fw 187 would have been a match for a Spitfire Mk.IX, say.

The next thing is, if the Fw 187 is being manufactured, what that Focke Wulf has built in reality is not getting built? FW didn't have unlimited resources. The Fw 190? Or the Fw 189? Something has to give and if it's the Fw 190, the Germans are depriving themselves of quite possibly their best piston engined single engined aircraft of the war, bearing in mind its history and subsequent development.

Cause and effect. If you alter the timeline of one aircraft, that changes the timeline of those it interacts with.


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## Kevin J (Oct 9, 2019)

nuuumannn said:


> In the immediate event of the aircraft going into service, but as I've said about the introduction of the Fw 187 in other threads, you can definitely count on the British to retaliate with quickness, as they did with the introduction of the Fw 190, if the Fw 187 is the threat you're perceiving it to be.
> 
> I would pick that immediately there would be panic in the Air Ministry that could possibly lead to a two-speed, two-stage Merlin being put into production and service in a fighter earlier than what it traditionally was. I doubt the Fw 187 would have been a match for a Spitfire Mk.IX, say.
> 
> ...



Agreed, but Avia have the manufacturing facilities.


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## tomo pauk (Oct 9, 2019)

nuuumannn said:


> In the immediate event of the aircraft going into service, but as I've said about the introduction of the Fw 187 in other threads, you can definitely count on the British to retaliate with quickness, as they did with the introduction of the Fw 190, if the Fw 187 is the threat you're perceiving it to be.
> 
> I would pick that immediately there would be panic in the Air Ministry that could possibly lead to a two-speed, two-stage Merlin being put into production and service in a fighter earlier than what it traditionally was. I doubt the Fw 187 would have been a match for a Spitfire Mk.IX, say.



I also don't see much of a threat if LW fields, say, couple of hundreds of 360 mph Fw 187s.
1st - we don't know what actual range we get, nor we know how much of fuel it is carried (more powerful engines will get worse mileage), nor whether it is 'allowed' to carry drop tanks (and how much is it better vs. Bf 109E with drop tanks for the BoB).
2nd - a 360 mph LW fighter vs. 360 mph Spitfire and Whirlwind is no reason to panic.
3rd - Fw 187 is a much bigger aircraft than Bf 109, making it much easier to spot and hit. It will also cost about twice what 109 costs, and Germany was historically out-produced by UK during the crucial months of Summer of 1940.

So yes, my idea is still that Fw 187 + HS 12Y engine is a net gain for the LW, however it need to be produced in vast quantity early enough and has to feature drop tanks in order to actually defeat the RAF in 1940, with help of Bf 109 and bombers, and with proper strategy and logistics.

On the other hand, the AM cannont just pull the 2-stage 2-speed Merlin out of the hat in 1940, since there is no such thing even on the bench, unlike in 1942. What they can do is to push for Spitfire III, that should be making 390 mph armed.



> The next thing is, if the Fw 187 is being manufactured, what that Focke Wulf has built in reality is not getting built? FW didn't have unlimited resources. The Fw 190? Or the Fw 189? Something has to give and if it's the Fw 190, the Germans are depriving themselves of quite possibly their best piston engined single engined aircraft of the war, bearing in mind its history and subsequent development.
> 
> Cause and effect. If you alter the timeline of one aircraft, that changes the timeline of those it interacts with.



Focke Wulf was making Bf 110s under licence. So have them not produce Bf 110s, that also frees up a lot of DB 601s.

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## Just Schmidt (Oct 9, 2019)

Without having read all of the old part of the thread, I think Tomo have a good point. Even at 360 mph it would still just be an airplane, not a revolution. Useful but not in itself decisive.

As the lightning was a excellent performer and didn't on its own destroy die Luftwaffe when it turned up in Europe, i actually find the comparizon between the two apt. probably the Fw 187 could have filled the same role, but a rather limited role compared to the versatility of Bf 110.

I always liked the Fw 187 but have sobered up on its unlimited potential over the years. Maybe too much is made dependent on how much better it would have been at one of the Bf 110's roles during the specific event the Battle of Britain. Even then, the latter might have done better if not hampered by unsound tactics, that goes for the bf 109 too. It's quite another matter whether BoB was winnable for Germany, I have no very firm opinion on that.

One thing I rarely, if ever, have seen commented on in the many Fw 187-related threads throughout the forum is one problems of improving/updating it (but I have not read through all of them). That is, specifically, the fact that some instrumentation was mounted on the inner engine nacelles, as there was not room in the cockpit, rather like the Hs 129. The extra crewman in the two-seater was placed behind the pilot, but where to put additional stuff demanded by upgrades and additional roles without enlarging the with of the fuselage, compromizing performance?

As said, a fine aircraft no doubt with much potential, but still 'only' an aircraft.

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## nuuumannn (Oct 9, 2019)

tomo pauk said:


> On the other hand, the AM cannont just pull the 2-stage 2-speed Merlin out of the hat in 1940, since there is no such thing even on the bench, unlike in 1942. What they can do is to push for Spitfire III, that should be making 390 mph armed.



Actually Tomo, that's not true. The 60 Series Merlin was being bench tested in 1940 - remember it was first developed for high altitude variants of the Vickers Wellington, eventually being installed in the Wellington Mk.VI. The first Spitfire to fly fitted with a two-speed-two stage Merlin was Spit III N3297, which did so in September 1941, with a Merlin 61. My proposition, and it's likely this might have happened under the circumstances was that RR escalated development of the 60 series engine for fighters before considering it for bombers. I also didn't say it would be magiced out of thin air in 1940 - its development timeline meant that it was being worked on for high altitude bombers in 1940 - 1941. If impetus was given for it to be pressed for urgent fighter development, there's no reason why the first 60 Series Merlin engined Spitfires couldn't have been in service by late 41, given the time it took for the Spit Vs to be modified on the production line by fitting the 60 Series engine and their introduction into service in 1942.

Yes, you're right about tactics; it does depend on how the type was used in action, which would define what measures were to be taken against it, but my point is that to presume that if a qualitative advantage of any sort was being introduced on the front line, it would be folly to assume that the British would do nothing. The Fw 190's appearance spurred considerable development of the Spitfire, as we know and it was Lord Hives of RR who raised the question of putting the 60 Series Merlin into a Spitfire.



> Agreed, but Avia have the manufacturing facilities.



I highly doubt that such an important project would be placed solely under the guise of a satellite factory, particularly if it is to be upgraded and advanced beyond the early model. Again, what are resources not being devoted to if the Fw 187 is built? FW doen't have infinte manpower to just conjure an aeroplane and its subsequent development out of thin air.


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## wuzak (Oct 9, 2019)

nuuumannn said:


> Actually Tomo, that's not true. The 60 Series Merlin was being bench tested in 1940 - remember it was first developed for high altitude variants of the Vickers Wellington, eventually being installed in the Wellington Mk.VI. The first Spitfire to fly fitted with a two-speed-two stage Merlin was Spit III N3297, which did so in September 1941, with a Merlin 61. My proposition, and it's likely this might have happened under the circumstances was that RR escalated development of the 60 series engine for fighters before considering it for bombers.



True, but they could bolt in the Merlin XX into a Spitfire I or II in late 1940, since they were in production.

And a Merlin XX/Spitfire would be superior to the 360mph Fw 187.

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## nuuumannn (Oct 9, 2019)

wuzak said:


> True, but they could bolt in the Merlin XX into a Spitfire I or II in late 1940, since they were in production.



Definitely, and as an interim measure, why not put the Merlin 45 into a Mk.II airframe sooner? The first flew in late 1940.


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## Kevin J (Oct 10, 2019)

Just Schmidt said:


> Without having read all of the old part of the thread, I think Tomo have a good point. Even at 360 mph it would still just be an airplane, not a revolution. Useful but not in itself decisive.
> 
> As the lightning was a excellent performer and didn't on its own destroy die Luftwaffe when it turned up in Europe, i actually find the comparizon between the two apt. probably the Fw 187 could have filled the same role, but a rather limited role compared to the versatility of Bf 110.
> 
> ...



If you consider that 75% of P-38 losses in the 1942 Aleutians campaign were weather / navigation related then clearly having a navigator in a long range twin is essential for at least the first half of WW2. So the single seat Fw 187 might only be useful in the BoB Summer 1940, unless anyone here can think of another theatre where long range navigation is easy enough for just the pilot to handle.


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## tomo pauk (Oct 10, 2019)

nuuumannn said:


> Actually Tomo, that's not true. The 60 Series Merlin was being bench tested in 1940 - remember it was first developed for high altitude variants of the Vickers Wellington, eventually being installed in the Wellington Mk.VI. The first Spitfire to fly fitted with a two-speed-two stage Merlin was Spit III N3297, which did so in September 1941, with a Merlin 61. My proposition, and it's likely this might have happened under the circumstances was that RR escalated development of the 60 series engine for fighters before considering it for bombers. I also didn't say it would be magiced out of thin air in 1940 - its development timeline meant that it was being worked on for high altitude bombers in 1940 - 1941. If impetus was given for it to be pressed for urgent fighter development, there's no reason why the first 60 Series Merlin engined Spitfires couldn't have been in service by late 41, given the time it took for the Spit Vs to be modified on the production line by fitting the 60 Series engine and their introduction into service in 1942.



You're probably right that Merlin 60 was bench-tested in 1940. My idea, and I still think it has merit, is that Merlin 60 in service use during the BoB requires time travel, since not just a prototype engine is not fully tested & aproved, but historically RR was barely making enough of Merlin XXs in 1940 to cater both for Hurricane and Spitfire (thus Spitfire III is cancelled).



> Yes, you're right about tactics; it does depend on how the type was used in action, which would define what measures were to be taken against it, but my point is that to presume that if a qualitative advantage of any sort was being introduced on the front line, it would be folly to assume that the British would do nothing. The Fw 190's appearance spurred considerable development of the Spitfire, as we know and it was Lord Hives of RR who raised the question of putting the 60 Series Merlin into a Spitfire.



Appearance of the Fw 190 was a shock since it meant introduction of an enemy fighter that is not just faster and climbs better than RAF's best fighter, it also rolls much better than either Spitfire or Bf 109 at any speed, and sports a much better canopy to improve situational awareness. The 360 mph Fw 187 will not introduce anything of the listed vs. Spitfire I/II while being a bigger A/C so the RAF pilots can spot it much easier than the 109, and also being a bigger target.





> I highly doubt that such an important project would be placed solely under the guise of a satellite factory, particularly if it is to be upgraded and advanced beyond the early model. Again, what are resources not being devoted to if the Fw 187 is built? FW doen't have infinte manpower to just conjure an aeroplane and its subsequent development out of thin air.



(I know this is not replied to me, but still)
Development of the F w187 is basically over before 1939. Cancel the orders for the Bf 110 that Focke Wulf received, and press on with the Fw 187. Germany was all too happy to get Czech tanks, guns, trucks and whatever, so receiving the aero engines from Avia (firmly under German control by mid-1939) is no stretch.



nuuumannn said:


> Definitely, and as an interim measure, why not put the Merlin 45 into a Mk.II airframe sooner? The first flew in late 1940.



Late 1940 is too late for the BoB - Merlin 45 lags by some 6 months behind the Merlin XX.

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## nuuumannn (Oct 10, 2019)

tomo pauk said:


> You're probably right that Merlin 60 was bench-tested in 1940. My idea, and I still think it has merit, is that Merlin 60 in service use during the BoB requires time travel, since not just a prototype engine is not fully tested & aproved, but historically RR was barely making enough of Merlin XXs in 1940 to cater both for Hurricane and Spitfire (thus Spitfire III is cancelled).





tomo pauk said:


> Late 1940 is too late for the BoB - Merlin 45 lags by some 6 months behind the Merlin XX.



Yeah, agreed Tomo, but this is where you're not reading the post I wrote - I didn't state that any of these things would be ready for the BoB, but historically the Merlin 45 engined Spit II flew for the first time in late 1940, so you would have one as an interim until the 60 Series Merlin is ready for production and service in late 41. This time line fits because traditionally the Spit IX entered service in 1942 and RR had been working on the 60 Series Merlin throughout 1940. Besides, since the Fw 187 is available before the BoB, the British are certainly going to be aware of it having battled with it over France, so who says that traditional dates are going to be observed when RR start each variant of the Merlin? 

Again, my point is that historically things happened over a given time period; had the threat been identifided sooner, mightn't a response be forthcoming sooner, which would lead to what happened across the same time it took, but earlier?

The key to what ifs is that they didn't happen, so you can presume anything...


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## wuzak (Oct 10, 2019)

If the RAF are aware of teh Fw 187 in 1939, then perhaps they proceed with a Merlin X version of the Spitfire I. 

In the Spitfire III the Merlin X gave a top speed of nearly 400mph, so a Spitfire I with the Merlin X should give performance superior to the Fw 187.

The Merlin X being available earlier than the XX, but with lower performance.

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## GrauGeist (Oct 10, 2019)

No matter how promising the 187 might have been, we know good and well that had it gone into production, the RLM would have stalled production with requests for variants like a dive-bomber, night-fighter, ground-attack, up-armed Jabo and so on...


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## Shortround6 (Oct 10, 2019)

Kevin J said:


> If you consider that 75% of P-38 losses in the 1942 Aleutians campaign were weather / navigation related then clearly having a navigator in a long range twin is essential for at least the first half of WW2. So the single seat Fw 187 might only be useful in the BoB Summer 1940, unless anyone here can think of another theatre where long range navigation is easy enough for just the pilot to handle.




Part of the long range navigation is training. If long range navigation is not taught (or enough hours devoted to it) then there are going to be problems.
As far as losses in the Aleutions campaign go, what were the losses of multi seat aircraft due to weather / Navigation and to some extent, why?
later in the war I beleive Lockheed Ventura/s were assigned as navigator ships to B-24 formations because the the Ventura's had radar that could show the islands?


AS to the FW 187, you have several problems in 1940 (at least in fielding large numbers in the late summer of late 1940)

1. is guns, you have the MG/FFM and the MG 17. The MG/FFM has 60 round drums, the parent company offered 75 and 90 round drums but the Germans never used them. Not to say they couldn't if they had really wanted to. The BF 110 (for those that don't know and many here do), carried one drum on each gun plus 2 spare drums per gun which were changed by the radio operator. 
2. The radio, the 109 used a rather short ranged radio (although not any worse than many other nations in 1940) while the 110 carried the same radio as the He 111 bomber. Building long range fighters that cannot communicate with either their base or with the formations of bombers they are supposed to be escorting doesn't sound like a good idea. (put the 2nd crewman back in the FW 187) 
3. The Hispano engine, which one do you use? The French are unlikely to give any details of the newest versions to Avia after the Germans take Czechoslovakia and the Czechs weren't even making the most up to date Hispanos in 1938 anyway. 
I really doubt that any Hispano available to the Germans in 1939/early 1940 would make any more power at altitude than the RR Peregrine did, if in fact they made as much. 
The Hispano -32 for instance made 860hp at 3250 meters ( 10,725ft).
Hispano superchargers were bad enough that the company turned to the Szydlowsky-Planiol supercharger to improve things (like the the engine in the D. 520). 
The engines in the FW 187 were good for 675hp each at 3800 meters ( 12,500ft) .

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## Kevin J (Oct 11, 2019)

Shortround6 said:


> Part of the long range navigation is training. If long range navigation is not taught (or enough hours devoted to it) then there are going to be problems.
> As far as losses in the Aleutions campaign go, what were the losses of multi seat aircraft due to weather / Navigation and to some extent, why?
> later in the war I beleive Lockheed Ventura/s were assigned as navigator ships to B-24 formations because the the Ventura's had radar that could show the islands?
> 
> ...



To be honest, I think the Me 110 is a much better choice. It's more versatile. We had the Whirlwind, where did we use it? The SW Approaches to the English Channel and only 2 squadrons, better weather down there. So maybe the Luftwaffe does the same, builds just over 100 Fw 187 max. It's not a game changer.


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## tomo pauk (Oct 11, 2019)

wuzak said:


> If the RAF are aware of teh Fw 187 in 1939, then perhaps they proceed with a Merlin X version of the Spitfire I.
> 
> In the Spitfire III the Merlin X gave a top speed of nearly 400mph, so a Spitfire I with the Merlin X should give performance superior to the Fw 187.
> 
> The Merlin X being available earlier than the XX, but with lower performance.



Care to shed some details about Merlin X/Spitfire III combo? I know that 'ordinary' Spitfire III (Merlin XX aboard) was good for some 400 mph unarmed.



Shortround6 said:


> ...
> 1. is guns, you have the MG/FFM and the MG 17. The MG/FFM has 60 round drums, the parent company offered 75 and 90 round drums but the Germans never used them. Not to say they couldn't if they had really wanted to. The BF 110 (for those that don't know and many here do), carried one drum on each gun plus 2 spare drums per gun which were changed by the radio operator.
> 2. The radio, the 109 used a rather short ranged radio (although not any worse than many other nations in 1940) while the 110 carried the same radio as the He 111 bomber. Building long range fighters that cannot communicate with either their base or with the formations of bombers they are supposed to be escorting doesn't sound like a good idea. (put the 2nd crewman back in the FW 187)
> 3. The Hispano engine, which one do you use? The French are unlikely to give any details of the newest versions to Avia after the Germans take Czechoslovakia and the Czechs weren't even making the most up to date Hispanos in 1938 anyway.
> ...



1 - how much is a stretch to add another pair of MG 17s to the Fw 187?
2 - would the lack of LR radio be any more of the problem as it will be for BF 109 that carries a drop tank?
3 - Czech were making the Y12crs - 860 HP at 4000 m (used on their fighters, plus on Yugoslav IK-3s). That computes into about 1/3rd more power at same altitude than the Jumo 211G.


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## wuzak (Oct 17, 2019)

tomo pauk said:


> Care to shed some details about Merlin X/Spitfire III combo? I know that 'ordinary' Spitfire III (Merlin XX aboard) was good for some 400 mph unarmed.



The prototype Mk III first flew with a Merlin X.

The performance figures in Morgan and Shacklady are with the Merlin X. Can't recall if they have performance with the Merlin XX. 

I will check later.


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## wuzak (Oct 18, 2019)

*Spitfire Mk.III*

*Engines:*
Rolls-Royce Merlin X (RM.2SM). Electric starter. 1,265hp @ 9,500ft, 1,145hp @ 16,750ft.
Rolls-Royce Merlin XX (RM.3SM)/ Electric starter. 1,280hp @ 3,000rpm.
Rolls-Royce Merlin 61

*Propeller:*
Supermarine 3-blade C/S VP Jablo. Diameter 10ft 9in.

*Coolant:*
70% water, 30% glycol. 16.5gals. in system.

*Fuel:*
100 octane.
Capacity (fuselage) upper 53gals, lower 46.5, total 99.5.

*Oil:*
6.8gals. Consumption 1.75 to 2.5 gal/hr.

*Armour:*

*Armament:*
A and B wing or 4 x 20mm Hispano cannon and 4 x .303 Browning m/gs.

Cine Camera

*Radio:*
TR1133

*Performance (Merlin X):*
Max speed: 340mph @ 5,000ft, 360mph @ 10,000ft, 369mph @ 15,000ft, 400mph @ 21,000ft
Max dive: 450mph
Take-off run: 250yds
Climb to: 15,000ft 4.5 mins, 20,000ft 6.4mins
Service ceiling: 38,000ft
Stall: flaps and u/c up 93mph
Landing run: 600yds


From Morgan and Shacklady, _Spitfire, the History_, p132.

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## tomo pauk (Oct 18, 2019)

wuzak said:


> *Spitfire Mk.III*
> 
> *Engines:*
> Rolls-Royce Merlin X (RM.2SM). Electric starter. 1,265hp @ 9,500ft, 1,145hp @ 16,750ft.
> ...



Thank you for this.
However, reading through the part of the book that deals with Spitfire III leaves a lot to be desired. Like, on th pg. 128:"The RM2SM engine raised the fully supercharged altitude to 25000 ft as compared to 16500 ft of the Merlin II". What does that mean, that RM2SM engine was providing the +6.25 psi at 25000 ft? Ain't going to happen until Merlin XX with it's much improved inlet elbow, as seen here: graph
Plus: "...and preliminary figures issued by RR in December [of 1939, my remark] predicted a speed of 399 mph @ 19,500 ft (16 lb boost) and 394 (11 lb) at 21,500 ft" - this boost, and hence the expected power at specified altitudes is impossible even for the Merlin XX, that was good for +8 psi at 19500 ft.
(note: M & S use, for example, '6 and 1/4 lb' in order to state boost for what we'd nowadays say '+6.25 psi'; unfortunately, ilustration for the Spit III in the book depicts it as armed aircraft that can add to the confusion about the state of aircraft during the tests)
Supermarine's specification for the Merlin X powered Spitfire III was to weight 4926 lbs (tare) and 6350 (ready for take off, with 'service load' of 608 lbs included), while 1st actual prototype of Spit III weighted 5127 lbs (tare), all up weight of of 6572 (but no guns & ammo) at 1st.
Then, on pg. the Merlin XX is stated as engine on two prototypes (one being a conversion), without a quote that actual engine change took place.

My conclusion thus far: Spitfire III was powered by Merlin XX during flight tests. I also wonder whether the test reports of the SPitfire III ever published.


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## dedalos (Nov 3, 2019)

Shortround6 said:


> Part of the long range navigation is training. If long range navigation is not taught (or enough hours devoted to it) then there are going to be problems.
> As far as losses in the Aleutions campaign go, what were the losses of multi seat aircraft due to weather / Navigation and to some extent, why?
> later in the war I beleive Lockheed Ventura/s were assigned as navigator ships to B-24 formations because the the Ventura's had radar that could show the islands?
> 
> ...



I would like to remind that the Fw187 was not a paper aircraft. It was flown in its earlier form, and in 1942 received orders for production. Detailed design for his evolved form was made from Fw , .and detailed performance calculations with what ever inaccuracies they maybe had.
It was vastly superior to the BF 110 as air superiority fighter. That s beyond question. And we do know that in Africa in 1941 the bf110s exchanged losses with the hurricanes almost 1:1
The Battle of Britain could not be won because of logistics shortages and bad tactics. But The presence of a capable long range fighter like the FW187 would have caused more losses to the FC. Also in the next years would be extremely valuable to the LW. Battling Mosquitos over Biscay, chasing Recce aircraft all over occupied Europe, escorting bomber attacks against convoys at least twice the range the 109 could, escorting bomber attacks against Moscow and targets beyond,fly recce missions itself faster than all existing german aircraft.It would be a much better choice for wilde Sau missions than the Fw 190 . Also fly day high cover for the Fw190s of Jg2 and Jg26, on the channel front. The only advantage of the Bf 110 was bomb lifting capacity. But who cares. The competition was for a long range fighter. Also even in this role, only in Russia the Bf110 would be better . For hit and run missions against england the Fw187 would be superior to both the 110 and the Fw190.
On all cases i am referring to the single seat version.
Personally i believe that with DB series of engines , as were fitted to the various Bf109 versions, would have some performance advantage ,even against the spitfire, at least until the series 60 merlins. Now , if the Db 603s that were used on the Me 410 were released for the evolution of Fw187 , then the aircraft would be fully competitive to the last days of the war.
As for productions resources, it could have used the production of the Bf110, Me 210/410.


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## Admiral Beez (Nov 3, 2019)

GregP said:


> LOVE the Hornet! It is one seriously good-looking plane with a wonderful excess of power. Wish we had some around the warbird circuit today!


Me too. And look, it even fits in the Indefatigable class’ low hangar.







As for the Fw 187, I’d like to see it succeed in the CAS role rather than air to air combat. For that role you’ve got the Bf 109, Fw 190, Me 262, etc. But there’s nothing like German IL-2.


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## wuzak (Nov 3, 2019)

dedalos said:


> Personally i believe that with DB series of engines , as were fitted to the various Bf109 versions, would have some performance advantage ,even against the spitfire, at least until the series 60 merlins.



That'd be a problem, because when the Fw 187 would be avaialbel in sufficient numbers the 2 stage Spitfires would have been well and truly in production.




dedalos said:


> Now , if the Db 603s that were used on the Me 410 were released for the evolution of Fw187 , then the aircraft would be fully competitive to the last days of the war.



The Db 603 was significantly bigger and heavier than the Db 601/605. Adapting it would require an extensive redesign.


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## Shortround6 (Nov 4, 2019)

dedalos said:


> Now , if the Db 603s that were used on the Me 410 were released for the evolution of Fw187 , then the aircraft would be fully competitive to the last days of the war.




British just stick Griffins in the Mosquito, case closed on the Fw 187. 

This is what I hate about the FW 187, it changes to whatever configuration, engine or performance is wanted or needed at any point in time in the argument. 

It is like trying to nail pudding to a wall with a 3lb hammer. 

I do think it is a cool looking plane and aside from taking up some space for fuel I have no idea why everybody hates the rear seat guy. 
let him play with the radio and give him a spare drum for each of the early 20mm cannon. leaving him home doesn't affect the performance to any great degree.

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## GrauGeist (Nov 4, 2019)

Admiral Beez said:


> Me too. And look, it even fits in the Indefatigable class’ low hangar.
> 
> View attachment 559269
> 
> ...


The Fw187 was a fighter, the Me262 was not.

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## tomo pauk (Nov 4, 2019)

GrauGeist said:


> The Fw187 was a fighter, the Me262 was not.



It was not?


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## Admiral Beez (Nov 4, 2019)

GrauGeist said:


> The Fw187 was a fighter, the Me262 was not.


I said air to air combat, with no mention of which is a fighter. But what’s your issue with the Me 262?


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## GrauGeist (Nov 4, 2019)

Admiral Beez said:


> I said air to air combat, with no mention of which is a fighter. But what’s your issue with the Me 262?


You said that you would like to see the Fw187 succeed in the CAS rile rather than air to air combat (aka fighter) and continued on to say that the Bf109, Fw190 and Me262 were better suited for that role.

Hence my reply. The Fw187 was better suited as a fighter as was it's initial concept/design. The Me262 was indeed classified as a "fighter" but it was a "heavy fighter", falling into the category with the Bf110, Me410 amd so on - it's strengths lay in interception where it's speed and firepower were it's strength. 

It's survivability against Allied fighters dropped exponentially, especially when factoring in how many hours were on it's engines, the experience level of it's pilot (and that of it's adversary), how long it had been aloft and at what altitude it was engaged/engaging.


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