# Fouga Magister



## Milos Sijacki (May 25, 2008)

I know that this airplane served with French air force back in the 50s. Is there anything more to be said about it besides the info on wikipedia?? 

Personally I think it is a bit ugly.....


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## Arsenal VG-33 (May 25, 2008)

Meh...it's an O.K. looking aircraft. It's not particulary sleek though not necessarily ugly either. For it's time it was a decent trainer aircraft with good handling capabilities. Seems to have had decent export history too, with some countries actually using it for for light combat duties. The info on Wiki appears to be generally correct from what I can tell.

What is most interesting about this aircraft, is that it is the ancestor of the experimental Potez-Heinkel CM. 191, a tandem 2-seater with a shorter wingspan and fuselage, of which only 2 or 3 were built. A surviving example (perhaps the only one left in existance) is on display at the Technikmuseum in Germany.

Potez-Heinkel CM.191B D-9532


As for the Fouga-Magister, there are a few in the hands of private collectors. I've heard than at least one, perhaps two, exists in flying condition in the USA.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 25, 2008)

There's many of them flying in the US.

I worked on one in Mojave California and flown in it about 4 times. A very simple aircraft even though it has two tiny engines. It is a bit underpowered but once in the air a lot of fun to fly.


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## Milos Sijacki (May 26, 2008)

Alright. Thanks guys.


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## HoHun (May 26, 2008)

Hi Milos,

>Personally I think it is a bit ugly.....

Hm, actually, if you see it in the air, it's quite an elegant flyer. The wide angle photograph you posted doesn't show it well, but it's really a slim aircraft with long wings that looks really good performing the graceful high-speed manoeuvres the typical Magister airshow routine is composed of.

The Belgian Air Force for example had a display team using Magisters, "Les Diables Rouges".

The Magister has been jokingly described as a "jet powered glider" due to the relatively low thrust combined with the long, narrow wings.

Another nickname was "mice slayer" - if the small jet engines are run up to full power on the ground, they emit a powerful, high-pitched whine that reportedly causes rodents to drop dead on the spot 

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


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## Waynos (May 26, 2008)

There was an attempt to repeat the trick in the late 1970's with the Aerospatiale Fouga 90 but there were no takers


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## HoHun (May 26, 2008)

Hi Waynos,

>There was an attempt to repeat the trick in the late 1970's with the Aerospatiale Fouga 90 but there were no takers

Thanks for the picture, I hadn't been aware of that variant before! There is an obvious similarity to the Alpha Jet with the raised rear seat - was the Fouga 90 a direct competitor to the Alpha Jet? From the time frame, this might fit I believe.

I just found out that the Luftwaffe actually had a Magister display team, too:

Fouga C.M. 170R „Magister“ (Heller)

Who'd have thought? 

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


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## Waynos (May 26, 2008)

Hello Henning, the Fouga 90 was intended as a basic trainer fitting below the Alpha Jet but the French air force never showed any interest. It was designed and built entirely as a Private venture with an eye on replacing the many Magisters still in service with foreign countries.


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## HoHun (May 26, 2008)

Hi Waynos,

>It was designed and built entirely as a Private venture with an eye on replacing the many Magisters still in service with foreign countries.

Interesting ... I think the late 1970s were about the time when the modern-style turboprop trainers first appeared - maybe that's why there was no interest in the Magister 90? It seems that at least the German RFB Fantrainer, which was supposed to be a trainer in the class below the Alpha Jet too, never sold because of the emergence of turboprop trainers with jet-like cockpits fitted with ejection seats ...

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


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## Waynos (May 26, 2008)

I would have thought the Fantrainer would be the perfect solution and was surprised it didn't sell at the time. It is after all like flying a jet with the costs of a turboprop.


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## Graeme (May 27, 2008)

Arsenal VG-33 said:


> Potez-Heinkel CM. 191, a tandem 2-seater with a shorter wingspan and fuselage, of which only 2 or 3 were built.



Must have been cosy, but the CM 191 was definitely a 4-seater, Arsenal. 





I wonder if Heinkel's "V" tail experience with the CM-191 played some part in their twin-jet transport design one year later?


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## Waynos (May 27, 2008)

Do you find scanning Jane's as awkward as I do, or am I doing something wrong?


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## Graeme (May 27, 2008)

Waynos said:


> Do you find scanning Jane's as awkward as I do, or am I doing something wrong?



Nope they're generally 'spineless'. Now cutaways, there's a challenge!


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## solo (May 27, 2008)

Interesting.....I want to know that-Did "V" tail have a better handling than a normal tail?


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## FLYBOYJ (May 27, 2008)

In the Fouga it didn't make a differance - in aircraft like the Bonanza it tends to have a yaw tendency in level flight.


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## Graeme (May 27, 2008)

FLYBOYJ said:


> In the Fouga it didn't make a differance - in aircraft like the Bonanza it tends to have a yaw tendency in level flight.



Hi Joe,

This is from a book by Doug Richardson talking about Butterfly tails..





Based on what he says, I'd have thought that the Beech Bonanza would be in the same category, and have no problems?


How many trainers of that period had back-seat periscopes?


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## FLYBOYJ (May 27, 2008)

Great info - BTW the Fouga I worked on and flew had the periscope - once you got used to it it worked pretty well!


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## Graeme (May 28, 2008)

Waynos said:


> There was an attempt to repeat the trick in the late 1970's



And in the 80's, there was Microturbo's "V" tail effort, which also failed to attract customers.





Microturbo Microjet 200 - trainer


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## eddie_brunette (May 28, 2008)

It was the first aircraft that I classified as ugly when I was a little boy, and looking at it now...still ugly 

Interesting info on the "v" tails, thank you


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## solo (May 29, 2008)

It didn't make any differance ...... ( a bit disappointed) 

But thanks for Interesting info


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## Kruska (May 30, 2008)

eddie_brunette said:


> It was the first aircraft that I classified as ugly when I was a little boy, and looking at it now...still ugly
> 
> Interesting info on the "v" tails, thank you




  Yeah, same for me, and I was hoping that nobody would find out that the Luftwaffe had them.

Regards
Kruska


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## The Basket (May 30, 2008)

I like it
It looks ugly but elegant...

Very cheap trainer and did a good job recovering the French Aero industry.


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## Kruska (May 30, 2008)

The Basket said:


> I like it
> It looks ugly but elegant...
> 
> Very cheap trainer and did a good job recovering the French Aero industry.



Hello the Basket,

Good point there, it also helped to recover the German Aero industry.

Regards
Kruska


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## Milos Sijacki (Aug 14, 2008)

F-117 has a V-tail configuration and it seems to be working fine with it.

Is it?


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 14, 2008)

Milos Sijacki said:


> F-117 has a V-tail configuration and it seems to be working fine with it.
> 
> Is it?



Yes, but the F-117 has computers that compensates for any yawing tendencies - the V tail also played in the radar deflecting ability of the aircraft.


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## evangilder (Aug 14, 2008)

It DID. They have all been retired. I think the very last ones left Palmdale a week or so ago to storage up at Tonopah.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 14, 2008)

evangilder said:


> It DID. They have all been retired. I think the very last ones left Palmdale a week or so ago to storage up at Tonopah.


It did - I think there was an article in the AV Press last week about the last F-117 leaving Palmdale.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 14, 2008)

Here it is...

AV Press: Spectators bid farewell to stealth fighter


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## Milos Sijacki (Aug 17, 2008)

That was a really unique airplane, really futuristic. Its victory to loss ratio could had been PERFECT, hadn't that Hungarian serving in Yugoslav army shot it down. We still don't know how, at least I don't. I saw the remains of a cockpit, a tail and the pilot's helmet on a display in our Aviation museum.


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## FLYBOYJ (Aug 17, 2008)

Milos Sijacki said:


> That was a really unique airplane, really futuristic. Its victory to loss ratio could had been PERFECT, hadn't that Hungarian serving in Yugoslav army shot it down. We still don't know how, at least I don't. I saw the remains of a cockpit, a tail and the pilot's helmet on a display in our Aviation museum.


From what I understand it was a matter of skill, luck, and good old spying. From what I read there were Yugoslav spies around the Italian airbase where the F-117s were based out of. They would keep record of what time the aircraft took off. The times of the strikes were also monitored, so there was a value from the time they took off to the time they released their bombs. This Hungarian guy allegedly used a low frequency radar and was able to track the aircraft based on the cluttered return and the time to target gained from intelligence. It seems the night that F-117 was brought down all that was put together and it worked.


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## Matt308 (Aug 17, 2008)

A result of poor mission planning/rules of engagement and an insightful AAM crew. The F-117 was forced to use the same entrance/egress routes to targets. The AAM crew picked up on this and positioned themselves to take advantage. There was always debates about whether the use of indirect RF reflections may have been capitalized with cell tower technology for low frequency detection. But I think that answer was much more simple in reality.


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## Matt308 (Aug 17, 2008)

Look like we posted about the same time. I think our posts synch up well.


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