# When an Enemy Was a Friend



## syscom3 (Nov 27, 2006)

I saw this in another forum. I cannot vouch for its accuracy.

VALOR
January 1997, Vol. 80, No. 1 
By John L. Frisbee, Contributing Editor

*When an Enemy Was a Friend *

Brown's B-17 was perhaps the most heavily damaged bomber to return from combat. It survived because of an enemy's act of chivalry. 

Dec. 20, 1943, was a typically cold, overcast winter day in Britain as 2d Lt. Charles L. Brown's B-17F lined up for takeoff. It was 21-year-old Charlie Brown's first combat mission as an aircraft commander with the 379th Bomb Group, the target an FW-190 factory at Bremen, Germany. He and his crew of Ye Olde Pub were to become participants in an event probably unique at that time in the air war over Europe--a mission that would remain shrouded in mystery for many years. 
The bombers began their 10-minute bomb run at 27,300 feet, the temperature: negative 60 degrees. Flak was heavy and accurate. Before "bombs away," Brown's B-17 took hits that shattered the Plexiglas nose, knocked out the number two engine, damaged number four--which frequently had to be throttled back to prevent overspeeding- -and caused undetermined damage to the controls. Coming off target, Lieutenant Brown was unable to stay with the formation and became a straggler.

Almost immediately, the lone and limping B-17 came under a series of attacks from 12 to 15 Bf-109s and FW-190s that lasted for more than 10 minutes. The number three engine was hit and would produce only half power. Oxygen, hydraulic, and electrical systems were damaged, and the controls were only partially responsive. The bomber's 11 defensive guns were reduced by the extreme cold to only the two top turret guns and one forward-firing nose gun. The tailgunner was killed and all but one of the crew in the rear incapacitated by wounds or exposure to the frigid air. Lieutenant Brown took a bullet fragment in his right shoulder.

Charlie Brown figured the only chance of surviving this pitifully unequal battle was to go on the offensive. Each time a wave of attackers approached, he turned into them, trying to disrupt their aim with his remaining firepower. The last thing oxygen-starved Brown remembers was reversing a steep turn, becoming inverted, and looking "up" at the ground. When he regained full consciousness, the B-17 was miraculously level at less than 1,000 feet.

Still partially dazed, Lieutenant Brown began a slow climb with only one engine at full power. With three seriously injured aboard, he rejected bailing out or a crash landing. The alternative was a thin chance of reaching the UK. While nursing the battered bomber toward England, Brown looked out the right window and saw a Bf-109 flying on his wing. The pilot waved, then flew across the B-17's nose and motioned Brown to land in Germany, which the aircraft commander refused to do. After escorting them for several miles out over the North Sea, the Luftwaffe pilot saluted, rolled over, and disappeared. Why had he not shot them down? The answer did not emerge for many years.

The B-17 did make it across 250 miles of storm-tossed North Sea and landed at Seething near the English coast, home of the 448th Bomb Group, which had not yet flown its first mission. The crew was debriefed on their mission, including the strange encounter with the Bf-109. For unknown reasons, the debriefing was classified "secret" and remained so for many years. Lieutenant Brown went on to complete a combat tour, finish college, accept a regular commission, and serve in the Office of Special Investigations, with the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and in other Air Force and State Department assignments until his retirement. He now lives in Miami, Fla., where he is founder and president of an energy and environmental research center.

The image of his strange encounter with the Bf-109 remained firmly embedded in Charlie Brown's memory. In 1986, he began a search for the anonymous pilot. Finally, in 1990, former Oberleutnant Franz Stigler, now living in Canada, responded to a notice published in a newsletter for German fighter pilots. By comparing time, place, and aircraft markings, it was determined that Stigler was the chivalrous pilot who had allowed Brown's crew to live. Not surprisingly, Brown and Stigler have become close friends.

On that December day in 1943, there had been two persuasive reasons why Stigler should have shot down the B-17. First, earlier in the day, he had downed two four-engine bombers and needed only one more that day to earn a Knight's Cross. Second, his decision to not finish off the aircraft was a court-martial offense in Nazi Germany and if revealed could have led to his execution. He considered these alternatives while flying formation with the B-17, "the most heavily damaged aircraft I ever saw that was still flying." He could see the wounded aboard and thought, "I cannot kill these half-dead people. It would be like shooting at a parachute."

Franz Stigler's act of chivalry has been justly, though belatedly, honored by several military organizations here and abroad. On the other hand, Charles Brown was not decorated for his heroism over Germany, which never was reported by the 448th Bomb Group at Seething to his commanders. Such are the fortunes of war and its aftermath.

Pubished January 1997. For presentation on this web site, some Valor articles have been amended for accuracy.


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## Matt308 (Nov 27, 2006)

There are some inaccuracies for sure.

Example...climbing on one engine? Nah eh.


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## Henk (Nov 27, 2006)

The aircraft had not just one engine running. It means that only one engine were running at 100%.


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## Matt308 (Nov 27, 2006)

Right gotcha Henk. No1 @ 100%. No2 dead. No3 half power and No4 throttled back.

Below is Lt. Charles Brown, German Ace Franz Stigler and the artist of the works on the right.

{Pic from aviationstore.com}


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Nov 27, 2006)

Something similar happened to Bob Johnson in his P-47. The Bf 109 pilot had ran out of ammunition after shooting at Johnson. The Thunderbolt did not go down. The German pilot went up alongside the wounded aircraft, saluted and then went back across the channel. 

I heard in accounts where a crippled B-17 would be left alone by the German fighters. Sometimes they may have figured it would crash anyway. Sometimes the B-17 Pilot could still fly it back to England. The German Pilots had made a mistake in thinking the damaged aircraft would crash in enemy territory. Did they do something agains't the rules in allowing the B-17 wreck to get away and to hope it would die on it's own? I mean, If I was a German Pilot I would be consider if it was worth it to fly after some wounded stray and use up my gas and ammunition on it.


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## Henk (Nov 27, 2006)

Pretty good. I think it is really great if you get such stuff during a time when you never expect it to happen.


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## Matt308 (Nov 27, 2006)

I have a book Gunner: An Illustrated History of World War II Aircraft Turrets and Gun Positions (Hardcover), that provides an account of a B-17 gunner who claimed that an Bf-109 flew up into the 17's blindspot (just aft and port of the tailplane) and flew alongside their crippled B-17, lit a ciggy and cruised along with them for a few minutes. Then abruptly saluted and dove away. The gunner claimed they wrote this up in after action reports. This "blind spot" would not allow any gunner to train a weapon on the 109.

Seems dubious to me. That would be one balsy 109 pilot, some fantastic flying to maintain that blindspot trajectory while converging, and some rather feeble attempts by the 17 crew not to maneauver to get a shot. But more fantastic things have happened I guess.

And if you have never seen this book before, I HIGHLY recommend it. Talks about fighter tactics, equipment development history, performance/effectiveness and first person operational encounters with gun positions in B-17, B-24, B-25, Ju-88, B-29, Lanc, Halifax, and many others. The pics are FIRST quality with close up shots that allow you to read the stenciled wording on turret equipment, magazines and gunner positions. Great book.

Amazon.com: Gunner: An Illustrated History of World War II Aircraft Turrets and Gun Positions: Books: Donald Nijboer,Dan Patterson


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## Chingachgook (Nov 27, 2006)

"comments: I was a tailgunner in WWII, ( 8th airforce) on the plane the" Glamour Gal". I flew 13 missions out of England over Europe. Our plane was in repair when we were called out on duty. We used the
"Dotty Jane". On our 13th mission, March 6th ( my birthday) 1944 to Berlin, we were hit by anti-aircraft fire over Berlin. Our radio man was blown out and 9 bombs, and 3 were wounded ( a waist gunner- Bob Benjamin, the top turret gunner- herbert Morris, and I in the tail.). The pilot flew us back to England, with only half the plane. The Dotty Jane never flew again, and it was my last mission due to wounds.
Pilot-Arthur Socolofsky
Co-pilot- hayden hughes
Navigator-Wray nHylton
Bomber- Charles Duncan
Radioman- Alton Moore
Ball Turret- Kenneth Olson
Waist gunner- Bob Benjamin
Waist gunner- Ralph Mertz
*Tail gunner- Lyman Emrich*
Lyman Emrich
447th Bomb Gp 708 th Bomb Sq
Aircraft: Glamour Gal
E-mail: [email protected]"


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## Chingachgook (Nov 27, 2006)

found another pic...


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## Gnomey (Nov 28, 2006)

Good stuff, interesting story. Surprising that the German pilot passed up the Knight's cross that day (although he probably got it later). I do understand the reasons which are understandable.


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## kiwimac (Nov 28, 2006)

Its kind of insane actually. I remember the story of the English POW who was awarded the VC. When the Commandant of the camp found out, he put on a party for him and required all the guards to salute him.

Stories also of both Italian POWS and English jumping into rivers in enemy territory to try and save children. Further to that my Uncle (a child during WW2) was saved from falling off a cliff here in NZ by a man later found to be a German spy.


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## R-2800 (Nov 28, 2006)

Matt 308: I hear it is a great book and I just ordered it form Barnes and Noble i can't wait for it to come  .The story of the '17 is amazing and i am always interested in these abnormal happenings


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 28, 2006)

There are actually several instances of stuff like this happening. I read in an artical in the WW2 History magazine about a crippled B-17 that was escorted out of German territory and halfway accross the English Channel by a Bf-109 pilot who could have easily just shot them down.

Later after the war the 2 pilots met each other and later became friends. There is even a painting that was commissioned and the 2 pilots signed the painting.


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## davparlr (Nov 28, 2006)

Strange and touching story. But I don't think I would have done the same as the German pilot. That bomber crew would not hesitate to get back into another bomber and come back and kill my family, friends, other children, and destroy my country and help our defeat. Maybe there was a chivalry that was left over from an earlier age. It would probably be tough but the bomber should have been shot down. Maybe the horrors of war would change my attitude.


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## Matt308 (Nov 28, 2006)

R-2800 said:


> Matt 308: I hear it is a great book and I just ordered it form Barnes and Noble i can't wait for it to come  .The story of the '17 is amazing and i am always interested in these abnormal happenings




Let us know what you think R-2800. The book deserves some kudos.


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## Chingachgook (Nov 28, 2006)

davparlr,
I read about a B-24 crew who had been shot up over Italy. LW aircraft where working it over and the pilot dropped the gear as a sign that they were giving up/going to ditch - supposedly a sign to stop shooting. Well, the Luft pilots stopped shooting. Then one of the gunners on the B-24 got trigger happy and nailed one of the 109s - shooting it down. LW units in the area were NOT happy. The B-24 got home, but their Squadron was hunted from then on out - eventually having to change their tail colors to avoid being targeted so. This is as I remember - anyone else know this story?


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## R-2800 (Nov 28, 2006)

> Let us know what you think R-2800. The book deserves some kudos



Will do


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## R-2800 (Nov 28, 2006)

> davparlr,
> I read about a B-24 crew who had been shot up over Italy. LW aircraft where working it over and the pilot dropped the gear as a sign that they were giving up/going to ditch - supposedly a sign to stop shooting. Well, the Luft pilots stopped shooting. Then one of the gunners on the B-24 got trigger happy and nailed one of the 109s - shooting it down. LW units in the area were NOT happy. The B-24 got home, but their Squadron was hunted from then on out - eventually having to change their tail colors to avoid being targeted so. This is as I remember - anyone else know this story?


Yes the Group was called the 450th B.G. and they had white on their rudders which is were they got the name the "Cottontails" and after this incident they had to get rid of the white becasue as you say they were singled out


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## R-2800 (Nov 28, 2006)

Here is a pic hope it works


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## R-2800 (Nov 28, 2006)

dang it dosent


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## R-2800 (Nov 28, 2006)

here is a link
Official Home of the 450th BG Association


SORRY FOR SO MANY POSTS!!!!!!!!!


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## Chingachgook (Nov 29, 2006)

THANX 2800!


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## R-2800 (Nov 29, 2006)

no problem


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## Marshall_Stack (Nov 29, 2006)

If I was the American pilot, I probably would have put the plane down in Germany. Why take a chance on trying to make it to the UK when you have a battered aircraft and seriously wounded crew?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2006)

Damn I can certainly understand why the Luftwaffe pilots were pissed off though.


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## Chingachgook (Nov 29, 2006)

DerAdler,

That B-24 gunner must have been the least popular guy in his own squadron.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2006)

That I can believe too. 

Blanket Parties, Tea Bagging, Permanent KP, revocation of all passes...


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## Matt308 (Nov 29, 2006)

Tea Bagging? TEA BAGGING???? 

[See what you made me do? Now I have to clean the coffee off my screen.]


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## Gnomey (Nov 29, 2006)

Please tell me you know what Teabagging means...


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## Matt308 (Nov 30, 2006)

Gnomey, you disappoint me. It just concerns me that Adler would associate a squadron mates indiscretion with his need to tea bag him. 

What's your take my little gnomnal friend, hmmm?


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## Gnomey (Nov 30, 2006)

Slightly worrying form of entertainment but whatever floats your boat...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 30, 2006)

I never said that I would tea bag him. Oh no, my tea bags dont go anywhere near another mans mouth....

But as for members of his unit, I am sure they would bag him.


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## R-2800 (Nov 30, 2006)

haha


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## Matt308 (Nov 30, 2006)

Uhhhggg....


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## Jank (Nov 30, 2006)

Jank doesn't tea bag the ladies. He potato sacks them.


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## Gnomey (Dec 1, 2006)

Too much information.


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## Wildcat (Dec 1, 2006)

If the tea bagging doesn't work, there's always the turkey slap...


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## Chingachgook (Dec 1, 2006)

Our simple innocent thread is goin south fast. lol


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## R-2800 (Dec 1, 2006)

> Our simple innocent thread is goin south fast. lol


I agree


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 1, 2006)

They allways do...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Dec 1, 2006)

but who's complaining  2 pages is longer then some


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## Matt308 (Dec 1, 2006)

Jank said:


> Jank doesn't tea bag the ladies. He potato sacks them.



And Jank, with your forum name, I encourage you to stay clear of any sexual innuendos.


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 4, 2006)

Someone just e mailed me the story. This was attached.


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## Matt308 (Dec 4, 2006)

Hmmm. Wonder how accurate that is. Specifically if that vertical stab was that damaged. If so, that likely took some real flying to control yaw and bank angle with that engine out.


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 4, 2006)

Matt308 said:


> Hmmm. Wonder how accurate that is. Specifically if that vertical stab was that damaged. If so, that likely took some real flying to control yaw and bank angle with that engine out.


There's still plenty of surface area on the vertical stab and believe it or not you don't need that much rudder to fly a large multi engine aircraft. Directional control can also be achieved by adjusting the throttles on the running engines, even though the text said he had only one fully functioning engine...


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## davparlr (Dec 4, 2006)

I agree that there is plenty of vertical stabilator surface.

The fully functioning engine has got to be the port outboard. You could get more than two engines of full thrust if the remaining engines combined can generate more than one engine power. Also, the inboard starboard needs to be the most powerful of the two engines.


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## mkloby (Dec 4, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> There's still plenty of surface area on the vertical stab and believe it or not you don't need that much rudder to fly a large multi engine aircraft. Directional control can also be achieved by adjusting the throttles on the running engines, even though the text said he had only one fully functioning engine...



You're getting me excited to start flying the TC-12!


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 4, 2006)

mkloby said:


> You're getting me excited to start flying the TC-12!


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## R-2800 (Dec 4, 2006)

Matt308: about the Gunner book. I got it today thought it was really good for the most part. I thought it could go in depth a little more but overall it was a great book and i recomend it to any one intrested in WWII aircraft


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## Matt308 (Dec 4, 2006)

FLYBOYJ said:


> There's still plenty of surface area on the vertical stab and believe it or not you don't need that much rudder to fly a large multi engine aircraft. Directional control can also be achieved by adjusting the throttles on the running engines, even though the text said he had only one fully functioning engine...



Okay, but remember the story that two other engines were severely damaged. One only able to put out "50%" power and the other subject to overspeeds. That's some serious flying FBJ. KUdos to that guy.


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 4, 2006)

Matt308 said:


> Okay, but remember the story that two other engines were severely damaged. One only able to put out "50%" power and the other subject to overspeeds. That's some serious flying FBJ. KUdos to that guy.



Yep - pretty amazing!!


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## Chingachgook (Dec 5, 2006)

Why would the 109 pilot come up that close? I think even in the damaged condition the b-17 could be a threat - how'd he know that a gunner wouldn't let go a burst at him? 

I remember Lyman saying that a pair of Fw190s came up and looked them over - he felt that they didn't bother with his plane because it would be a waste of ammo.


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## Le Stuka (Dec 5, 2006)

> I think even in the damaged condition the b-17 could be a threat - how'd he know that a gunner wouldn't let go a burst at him?



Well, you don't really, could be like the 'Cottontail' gunner. But then again there could have been the feeling of mutual respect.


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## Matt308 (Dec 7, 2006)

Or it was painfully obvious that there was no more fight left in the -17


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## shabby (Jun 6, 2009)

Chingachgook said:


> "comments: I was a tailgunner in WWII, ( 8th airforce) on the plane the" Glamour Gal". I flew 13 missions out of England over Europe. Our plane was in repair when we were called out on duty. We used the
> "Dotty Jane". On our 13th mission, March 6th ( my birthday) 1944 to Berlin, we were hit by anti-aircraft fire over Berlin. Our radio man was blown out and 9 bombs, and 3 were wounded ( a waist gunner- Bob Benjamin, the top turret gunner- herbert Morris, and I in the tail.). The pilot flew us back to England, with only half the plane. The Dotty Jane never flew again, and it was my last mission due to wounds.
> Pilot-Arthur Socolofsky
> Co-pilot- hayden hughes
> ...


Hi chingachgook, I am glad I caught your story on the last mission of the Dottie Jane, I myself have become interested in the story due to a History assignment my son had to do for his class. My son coinsidently asked my neighbor if he would grant him an interview since he was a war veteran. Hesitantly my neighbor agreed. My son and two other classmates went on over to his home with a camcorder in hand for the interview, my neighbor was surprized by the camera idea but went on with the interview. After about 3 hours my son and his group came home, although my neighbor is 85 he can talk and talk. I myself had to make several cd's, some for the school and I made one for my neighbor. As I was watching and listening to him talk, I could not believe what I was listening to. I had no idea that I had a WWII hero living next door to me. He has recently told me that for so long he has not wanted to talk about the war. I have recently spoke and asked him more questions about what happened, in fact I went over to his home today and just sat and listened to him tell me about the incident which occured march 6 1944 ( your fathers cousins Bday), He explained to me what happened, My neighbor by the way was the top turret gunner, He even showed me a piece of shrapnel that hit him on the back of his knee.


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## Njaco (Jun 6, 2009)

Welcome to the forum shabby! Unfortunately, in the 3 years since Chingachgook's post, he was banned and hasn't been back. But I hope that doesn't deter you. Sounds like your neighbor has some great stories to tell!


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## LYGD (Dec 5, 2009)

x


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 5, 2009)

I have removed the post in question as you have requested, however *no* where in this thread was anything posted that was disgraceful to any war veteran! 

There are plenty of combat veterans in this forum (myself included) who would prevent such things from taking place. If he had false information, that can be corrected, but no one was trying to insult anyone.


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## pbfoot (Dec 5, 2009)

A little testy overnothing IMO


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## drgondog (Dec 5, 2009)

I have posted this before - it was the first painting I am aware of about Brown and Stigler. I got this from Stigler in the late 80's.


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## GrauGeist (Dec 5, 2009)

I'm a little confused here...

If that original post was a repost of information from the man himself, then how is it the grand-daughter has more accurate information?

As far as the actual information goes, according to USAAF records, the information as posted WAS correct, Glamour Gal was grounded and the Dotty Jane substituted and was hit by 88 Flak on 6 March 1944, killing the radio operator and wounding two crewmen. The Dotty Jane (B-17G-5-BO/42-31227) was able to return to it's base at Rattlesden, where it was declared unfit for repair, committed to salvage on 7 March 1944 (MACR 2278).

Here's a page with some information and two photos of the aircraft, showing the damage after it's return from the mission: 42-31227


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## FLYBOYJ (Dec 5, 2009)

LYGD said:


> I am Lyman Emrich's granddaughter-the name mentioned in the post above by Chingachgook. I found this forum because his name is posted on it, with inaccurate information...
> 
> including his death. How insulting for a decorated war hero.
> 
> ...



Dear LYGD;

As a veteran and aviator I have always honored and respected people like your grandfather who as part of the "Greatest Generation" served this country in a manner that few of us could comprehend. With that said there are many participants of this site who go to great extremes to learn about people like your grandfather and keep their memory and service alive. There are some of our members from Eastern Europe who had physically recovered USAAF servicemen's remains and aircraft wreckage and have reunited both friend and foe of that generation so their memory, courage and sacrifice can be made part of our permanent history.

In researching WW2 USAAF combat records, sometimes inaccurate and erred information is gathered, mainly because of stories told during the chaos and confusion of battle over 60 years ago. Additionally "official" records sometimes suffer the same fate for various reasons but in my opinion in either case rarely does one find "malicious intentions"

I'm going to be quite frank with you - your behavior with regards to the story of your grandfather is totally unsatisfactory. There was no malicious attempt to slander or defame him or any of his family members. Had you just come on here and stated the facts we would have gone out of our way to make the appropriate corrections, but to say that we disgraced your grandfather or don't have permission to post about him (just so you know combat records are public domain) is flat out ignorant.

This site and its membership has a proven track record of being a great resource to veterans and their families with regards to research and preserving history. Those of us who have spent countless hours researching records for a former WW2 airman or their family will recognize that sometimes our research might produce erred information and we are more than willing to make corrections as required, but this member will not allow someone like you to come on here and lambaste this site and its membership in the manner shown - *YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF!*

My words could be a lot more harsh, but given the fact of your grandfather's memory and service I've weighed my words. I do hope in the future you do the same.


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## Matt308 (Dec 6, 2009)

That was a fantastic post. Well said FlyboyJ. And LYGD, I'll assume that closes out your visitor messages to me.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 6, 2009)

Ditto Joe! Very well said.


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## LYGD (Dec 6, 2009)

pbfoot-

Making comments like that has no relevance and all it does is make for bad feelings. If it's your opinion, sometimes it's best to keep it to yourself. As a senior member, wouldn't you want to make people feel welcome on the board rather than unwelcome?


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## B-17engineer (Dec 6, 2009)

Wait...not to get involved....

What that was saying was we need special permission to post about WWII aviators?


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## GrauGeist (Dec 6, 2009)

LYGD, normally, a new member introduces themselves in a friendly manner, and is recived in kind.

The reaction you got was directly proportionate to your first post, and was dead-on, I might add...


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## Njaco (Dec 6, 2009)

And thats all that you can respond too, a one sentence post??

LY, it also makes sense and friends to come onto a site and without drama and emotion, ask for some corrections. I would suggest that you read FlyboyJ's post again and understand how you, yourself came off with afew of your very own posts. We're not vultures here and nobody is making not one thin dime off of anything. We honor and respect those who served. Being friendly is one thing - totally irrational demands are another.


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## LYGD (Dec 6, 2009)

x


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## Matt308 (Dec 6, 2009)

Yeah... we can. But honestly your prior posts and private messages directly to me indicated that this was "a big deal" to you. Either that or you are bipolar. Let's all just wipe the slate clean. Welcome LYGD. If you wish to properly introduce yourself in anticipation of joining our wonderful family of aviation enthusiasts, please do so in the BASIC subsection. Not here.

Now where were we before this thread was derailed...


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## B-17engineer (Dec 6, 2009)

Yea....but if it wasn't such a big deal why'd his post need to be removed....?Im sure if Chingackgock (?) saw that you wanted his post removed it would've made for hard feeling too, right? You sent visitor messages to mods saying you weren't happy with posts, you basically said we need your permission to post about him but it is hard to only make an exception for you so to speak.... People post inaccurate things all the time here, all it requires is a simple correction no need to go around asking people to ban him, remove posts or whatever is the point of what PB was trying to say..... 

So for you to go from being angered and dishonored to all friendly feelings is just surprising, to say the lest.

EDIT: Ok Matt sorry, I was working on this... and had to go do something  

Then when I posted you said to stop, my Bad.


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## Matt308 (Dec 6, 2009)

She's gone. I didn't appreciate her response to my honest concern in her visitor messages. Have a nice life, LYGD. May your knickers never bind.


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## B-17engineer (Dec 6, 2009)

Does she get the Homer Simpson skull with the tiny little brain?


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## Matt308 (Dec 6, 2009)

Well of course she does, B.


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## Matt308 (Dec 6, 2009)

Oh and look she's editing her wittle posts. Good riddance.


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## B-17engineer (Dec 6, 2009)

Yes! 

Were they the visitor messages where she said 

"I sent the message in three different sections because it was too large to send it in one. I don't have any "beef" with any member. A member named "Chinguchgook" or something along those lines, left posts containing inaccurate war information about my grandfather, Lyman Emrich. *It's really not all that difficult, if you start with the first message I sent, and go to the last, you can read it and figure it out. But since you can't, I'll repeat myself. I'll give you the information that you need that I gave you before.
*
I don't appreciate someone posting information copied from other sites, claiming they are a family member, when they are not. I don't need to tell you how it "smeared" his honor. The member "Chinguchgook" who wrote the posts was banned from this site. Obviously, they aren't even on here any more or welcome here, so what's the big deal about deleting the post?" -LYGD.


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## GrauGeist (Dec 6, 2009)

Hmmm...if there was any disrespect committed by anybody, I think that title goes to her...

Eh...whatcha gonna do?

Anyway, wasn't there another case where a LW pilot escorted a hammered B-17 out of the combat zone (similiar to this)? Seems to me like there was, but I can't remember the details


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## Njaco (Dec 6, 2009)

Capt. Charlies Brown's B-17 escorted by Franz Stigler of JG 27.


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## GrauGeist (Dec 6, 2009)

Njaco said:


> Capt. Charlies Brown's B-17 escorted by Franz Stigler of JG 27.


Yep, I recall another case of a stricken bomber being escorted by a Luftwaffe pilot...similiar to this...

Or maybe it was a fighter...I can't remember


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## Matt308 (Dec 6, 2009)

I have a book here at the house that mentions a stricken B-17, wherein a Bf-109 pilot saddles up in the starboard aft quadrant, pulls the canopy back and smokes a ciggy. He never fired a shot and just hung out in the blind spot of the gunners looking over the Fortress. This was a citing from a B-17 aft gunner as I recall. I've always tried to visualize how the German would make that approach and can't. I can find the book and the citing if anyone is interested. Once he finished his ciggy, he just closed up and peeled off. Late 44 if I recall.


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## B-17engineer (Dec 6, 2009)

Just read this... about Charlie Brown..

" 2ND Lt. Charlie Brown was a B-17F Flying Fortress pilot with the 379th
Bomber Group at Kimbolton, England. His B-17F was called “Ye Olde Pub” and
was in a terrible state, having been hit by flak and fighters. The compass
was damaged and they were flying deeper over enemy territory instead of
heading home to Kimbolton. Most of the tail half of the stabilizer were gone.

After flying over an enemy airfield, a pilot named Franz Stigler
was ordered to take off and shoot down the B-17F. When he got near
the B-17, he could not believe his eyes. In his words, he “had never seen a
plane in such a bad state”. The tail and rear section was severely damaged,
and the tail gunner wounded. The top gunner was all over the top of the
fuselage. The nose was smashed and there were holes everywhere.

Despite having ammunition, Franz flew to the side of the B-17
and looked at 2nd Lt. Charlie Brown, Lt. Brown was scared and
struggling to control his damaged and bloodstained plane.

Aware that they had no idea where they were going, Franz waved
at Charlie to turn 180 degrees. Franz escorted and guided the stricken
plane to and slightly over the North Sea towards England. He then saluted
Charlie Brown and turned away, back to Europe.

When Franz landed he told the C.O. that the plane had been shot
down over the sea, and never told the truth to anybody. Charlie Brown and
the remainder of his crew told all at their briefing, but were ordered
never to talk about it.

More than 40 years later, Charlie Brown wanted to find the
Luftwaffe pilot who saved the crew. After years of research, Franz was
found. He had never talked about the incident, not even at postwar
reunions.

They met in the USA at a 379th Bomber Group reunion, together
with 25 people who are alive now - all because Franz never fired his guns
that day.

Research shows that 2nd Lt. Charlie Brown lived in Seattle and Franz
Stigler had moved to Vancouver, BC after the war. When they finally met,
they discovered they had lived less than 200 miles apart for the past 50
years!"


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## Matt308 (Dec 6, 2009)

Yep that is a great story.


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## B-17engineer (Dec 6, 2009)

I'm sure most have heard of Robert Johnson and his encounter with Egon Mayer? 

There is a very similar story involving an American 56th Fighter Group pilot, Major Robert S. Johnson.

He was flying a mission in his P-47 T-bolt when he was jumped by the famous Egon Mayer in his Fw-190.

After a considerable aerial combat between the two Johnson's P-47 was badly shot up and ready for the coup-de-grace but for some reason Mayer, who was lined up to deliver the killer blow, never followed through his attack.

Instead he broke of the attack and climbed alongside the badly damaged T-bolt and escorted Johnson to the English coast before waggling his wings in salute and flying off.

Johnson managed to land his badly damaged aircraft and went on to become an Ace with 27 kills.

From a book I have

http://www.airartnw.com/notmyturn.htm


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## GrauGeist (Dec 6, 2009)

Hadn't heard about that one, Matt...sounds interesting, though!

That's the one, H! Mayer escorted the Jug back after brawling with him...heck of a story!


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## seesul (Sep 6, 2010)

I got a little bit different story but heard it from a friend of mine as it happened to him.

After he bailed out and was captured by Germans they put him to the solitary cell in my born town. After 2 or 3 days spent there with no food and water one German pilot came in and told him in a broken English (like me ): 'I´m the one who shot your plane down. I know B-17 is a good plane but Messerchmidt is better. Anyhow, is there something I could help you with?''

My friend said:'' yep, I got no food nor drink since I´m here.''

The German pilot got pretty mad and yelled at all around to bring him a food and drink asap. Then he waited till my friend ate and drunk it up all and gave him a box of cigarettes, lite one with him and said:'' I can´t give you a lighter but every time you wanna smoke tell the blonde girl behind the door and she will light it.''

Then he lifted up his hand saying 'Heil Hitler' and went away. My friend never saw him again.

I was searching for this pilot but it wasn´t easy as his name and surname appeared in several forms in the books and internet.After a lot of attempts I found his address. Sent him a letter in 2005 and no answer. 3 or 4 months later I got and answer from his daughter. She told me her father died in June 2004...she also sent me a lot some pics of him and also a copy his complete log book.

He visited my friend in jail just because he was shot down the same day and bailed out. We have the engine, machine guns, cannon and another parts from his G-14AS in our museum.

Jean-Yves Lorant was in touch with him for a long period and said he was a very kind man...

Yep, that friend of mine is the one in my siggy.

I still regret I wasn´t able to get them both in touch before 2004...


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