# The Guns We Own



## ccheese (Aug 8, 2007)

I thought it might be interesting for the members to tell and maybe even
show their gun collections. I am sure there are folks out there who
do not/will not own a gun. And, again, I'll bet there are some real
gun collectors among us. I have taken the liberty to upload some
pic's of my guns.

The shotgun is a JC Higgins model 1011 .20 gauge. The barrel was 36
inches, but was cut to 34 1/4 inches. It's 1/4 inch over legal.

The semi-automatics are a Bauer Arms Co. .25 (of Frazier. Mich),
an AMT .380 and a Smith Wesson 9 mm.

The revolvers are older than I am. The snub nose is a "Bulldog" .38
and the long barrel is a H R Arms Co. .32. The "Bulldog" has no
serial number, it was manufactured before serial numbers were 
required. Note the octagonal barrels on the pistols.


Note to Chris: Sorry, man, no Walther PPK.

Charles

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## ccheese (Aug 9, 2007)

A special thanks goes out to evangilder for re-sizing the photos. I donno
what happened to them, _they were huge_ ! Thanks, Eric....

Charles


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## zuluecho (Aug 10, 2007)

never took pics of my guns except 1 or 2. 

have a winchester db for hunting
303 rifle for hunting
92F (retired)
Glock (i got this one for personal use in iraq with 1+8 mags  lol


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## timshatz (Aug 10, 2007)

Just picked up a S&W .357 revolver. Also have a S&W 59 9mm but the thing keeps stove piping so I moved over to a revolver. Hate to have to NEED a gun and then have it go "ploink" after the first shot. Plus I don't have the time to recycle the mags.


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## Erich (Aug 13, 2007)

nice toys boyz ! have some pics I have already put on the in the past - ww2 German including a Panzerschreck 54 with shield. the other items are off limits to all but the govt.


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## Glider (Aug 13, 2007)

I have two rifles, a walther KK300 and a Marlin 700T. As you may have guessed Target shootig is one of my main pastimes.

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## comiso90 (Aug 13, 2007)

Glider said:


> I have two rifles, a walther KK300 and a Marlin 700T. As you may have guessed Target shootig is one of my main pastimes.



*BEAUTIFUL!!!!!*

I used to shoot the M1 Garand in competition... 300 rounds in practice will do a number on your shoulder!

I have a pre 1964 Remington .270
a Ruger 10-22 for plinking and 2 shotguns.

I intentionally avoid buying guns cuz I'm afraid i wont stop collecting them.

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## Glider (Aug 13, 2007)

Collecting guns isn't really an option in the UK

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## mkloby (Aug 13, 2007)

comiso90 said:


> I intentionally avoid buying guns cuz I'm afraid i wont stop collecting them.



Hey - you gotta have a vice, right????

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## comiso90 (Aug 13, 2007)

mkloby said:


> Hey - you gotta have a vice, right????



PLEASE don't try and justify it for me!!!!! I'm weak.

The trouble is there is too much to collect.. for too many reasons!

As a history buff, i'd like to have a pair of 18th century 68 caliber dueling pistols, A Kentucky rifle, a Mauser, an StG44..... there is no end!

As someone who likes to shoot, i want an M-14, a mini-14, 7mm mag, Desert eagle and an auto load shotgun with a magazine..

The only way I can practice discipline is through abstinence!... I'll stick to paper money....for now!

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## ccheese (Aug 13, 2007)

The gun I've always wanted to own was a German Navy Luger. They had
a very long barrel, I'm guessing about ten inches. I saw a couple at gun
shows, but I would have had to mortgage the house to own one. 

Glider, those match rifles are beautiful....

Charles


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## Negative Creep (Aug 15, 2007)

Some nice weapons there. Just a shame the deadliest thing we can own over here is an air rifle


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## Erich (Aug 15, 2007)

since most of you on this thread have never seen this I thought I would just go ahead and make you bleed ............


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## ccheese (Aug 15, 2007)

Erich, you dirty bird...... what are you doing with a bazooka ??

Charles


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## Hunter368 (Aug 15, 2007)

Erich said:


> since most of you on this thread have never seen this I thought I would just go ahead and make you bleed ............



Erich you nut!!!!!!!

I am sure that can't be legal no matter where you live.

 

Sweet


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## Erich (Aug 15, 2007)

self=protection besides it is a good deterent for bill collections 8)


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## comiso90 (Aug 15, 2007)

awesome... I like the books too!


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## Erich (Aug 15, 2007)

thank you and there are several thousand titles amongst everything in the house

I'll take more pics soon of the cave


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## drgondog (Aug 15, 2007)

I am not going to bother showing them but I have lot of wildcats and standard calibers in rifles plus specialized shotguns - Fabri's and Perazzi' for both Field and Pigeon Shooting plus many pistols ranging fro S&W mdl 63 in 22 mag, to Model 25 and and 19 and 41 and 29 S%W plus Sig 228, 229 and 239 plus the 1911AI Wilson Custom.

My five favorite non military type rifles are a Jarrett 280 Ackley, and 338-06 Custom from Wiseman, my 30-06 with Wiseman barrel and McMillan Stock, my 25-284 with a Shilen barrel and .375 with Wiseman barrel. All are 1/2 MOA shooters with 5 rounds at 100yds, better at 200. All have McMillan stocks and Leupold scopes

If I had to pick one for every animal on earth, it would be my .375 H&H on a Mauser Action with Wiseman bbl. It shoots everything well but is a thumper at 7 pounds w/o scope.


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## mkloby (Aug 20, 2007)

Here's my 1911


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## ccheese (Aug 20, 2007)

mkloby.... do my eyes deceive me or do I see hollow points in the mag ?

You don't mess around, you ?

Charles


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## mkloby (Aug 20, 2007)

ccheese said:


> mkloby.... do my eyes deceive me or do I see hollow points in the mag ?
> 
> You don't mess around, you ?
> 
> Charles



Good eye! You're eyes don't deceive you. I always keep HPs in the mag at home. It's a special treat for any would be intruder.


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## ccheese (Aug 21, 2007)

I keep "shock rounds" in mine. These are hollow points, but have a needle
like projection in the middle. I'm told a hit with a .25 will take a man down.
He might get back up, but if he does, there always a 2nd round !

Charles


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## Torch (Aug 21, 2007)

Ah lets see I have a SIG p220 supermatch SAO,SIG p226 .40 Elite, Springfield TRP Operator, Kimber TLE, Springfield .40 XD Tactical, S&W 686 custom, S&W 617, Beretta ss 92 compact, Taurus .45 compact, Taurus .38 snubbie,Keltec p32. Think thats it with the pistols. Have a Belgium Browning Lightning o/u, Beretta Silver pidgeon o/u, Benelli ultra lite 20 gauge. Rifles I kave a Kimber Montana .270wsm, Montana Rifle company .300wsm, Remington ss laminate stock in a .300 win mag and a Remington 700 bdl in a .308. and a CZ 527 Kevlar stocked .223...Probably have something else laying around somewhere also..


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## Konigstiger205 (Aug 21, 2007)

Crap...the only way I get to see a gun and actually shoot is to join the army...
And Erich is that a Panzershreck?


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## mkloby (Aug 21, 2007)

Konigstiger205 said:


> Crap...the only way I get to see a gun and actually shoot is to join the army...
> And Erich is that a Panzershreck?



Really? You're gov't does not allow the population to own guns?


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## Konigstiger205 (Aug 21, 2007)

No...its near to impossible for the common folk to own a gun....either you are very rich or very rich and connected and the laws are just plain stupid...for example if you kill someone in self defense you are still going to jail.Or if you are in your house and a thief attacks you with a..lets say a knife you are only allowed to attack him with a similar weapon......what can I say...my country is run by idiots...greedy idiots...


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## Matt308 (Aug 21, 2007)

Well. Lets just say the safes are full. Highlights are M1D Garand (with papers I might add  ), pristine Lee Enfield Mk III, some ARs, my personal fav M1A, Russian SKS, Bulgarian AK, 1911A1, CZ-75B, Glocks, Colt Mustang .380, S&W 686+ .357 6in, Browning Hi Power, and many others.

I too own an AMT 380. How about that hammer bite when you choke up too much. And have you ever field stripped it? Didn't think so.


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## ccheese (Aug 21, 2007)

Matt308: If you're referring to my AMT .380, as a matter of fact I have
field stripped it. It's been awhile, but I seem to remember having a heck
of a time getting the slide back on..... memory is not good but I seem to
remember "a trick" to it. Comments ?

Charles


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## SoD Stitch (Aug 22, 2007)

Very interesting thread . . . the main thing I'm coming away with is that the civilian population of the USA is armed to the teeth, and the civilian population of the rest of the world isn't. Makes you wonder why more of us don't kill each other . . .

That being said, I don't personally own any guns (yet), but I would love to have an M1911A1, maybe a Baer or a Kimber, preferably in stainless. That's all I need . . . well, maybe that and an M4. But that's it, really . . .


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## Matt308 (Aug 22, 2007)

ccheese said:


> Matt308: If you're referring to my AMT .380, as a matter of fact I have
> field stripped it. It's been awhile, but I seem to remember having a heck
> of a time getting the slide back on..... memory is not good but I seem to
> remember "a trick" to it. Comments ?
> ...



Yeah. Buy a can of Gun Scrubber. That way you can squirt your residue out. Just remember to oil judiciously on the wear points. That beast is not worTH taking apart. What about the bite from the slide. Ever done that? If so, you've never forgotten. My only complaint on the AMT is that it needs more of a beavertail in the palm grip to prevent that slide taking a chunk of hand with it.


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## timshatz (Aug 22, 2007)

Konigstiger205 said:


> No...its near to impossible for the common folk to own a gun....either you are very rich or very rich and connected and the laws are just plain stupid...for example if you kill someone in self defense you are still going to jail.Or if you are in your house and a thief attacks you with a..lets say a knife you are only allowed to attack him with a similar weapon......what can I say...my country is run by idiots...greedy idiots...



That sucks. 

Same way over here in the State of Mass. I think it's the only state where you have to retreat from your house if attacked. All the other ones, you can defend yourself. Just don't, 

A. Shoot them in the back (running away is not a threat)
B. Shoot them outside your house. 

I am not sure but I thought if you had the means to stop somebody else from being killed and you did not do it, you were guilty of something or other. Can't remember the details (law class was 20 years ago).


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## ccheese (Aug 22, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> What about the bite from the slide. Ever done that? If so, you've never forgotten. My only complaint on the AMT is that it needs more of a beavertail in the palm grip to prevent that slide taking a chunk of hand with it.



Matt: I have a very small hand.... the .380 fits it rather nicely. Also,
if you look at the pic I put up, you'll see the rubber grip that kinda
extends the grip downward. I've never been bit by the slide. Another
feature is it's small enough for me to carry in a shoulder holster. If
I try to carry my 9mm in a shoulder holster, it would stick out like a
sore thumb, and they'd arrest me for shoplifting.

As I showed in one of the other threads... I do have a concealed
weapons permit. In Virginia, if the law stops me while driving, I'm
obliged to give him my concealed permit with my driver's licence.
It's in the DMV files that I have a permit.

Charles


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## Catch22 (Aug 22, 2007)

Personally, I don't own any guns, being 16. But my grandfather, who was a policeman (now retired) confinscated during a drug raid an MP 40, and somehow managed to keep it. My dad is hoping that he'll be able to transfer the ownership over to us eventually, but we're not sure as owning a fully-automatic weapon is illegal here.


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## Matt308 (Aug 22, 2007)

ccheese said:


> As I showed in one of the other threads... I do have a concealed
> weapons permit. In Virginia, if the law stops me while driving, I'm
> obliged to give him my concealed permit with my driver's licence.
> It's in the DMV files that I have a permit.
> ...



Now that is a conundrum. With your license popping up "guns, guns, guns" you don't have much choice. However, I would never volunteer that I was carrying unless asked. None of their business and likely only to garner you an hour extended stay for obeying the law.


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## Clave (Aug 23, 2007)

Guns owned: 0
Number of people nearby with guns: 0
Likely number of times being held up at gunpoint: 0
Number of policemen killed in this area in 30 years: 1
Chances of getting robbed: .001%
Reasons to buy a gun: 0


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## ccheese (Aug 23, 2007)

Matt: I've only been stopped once by the law. Seems there was a hit and
run by someone in a "small, light colored truck". I drive a tan Mazda....
I was carrying at the time, so I gave the cop my permit with my licence.
His only question was "where is it ?" He didn't want to see it, and after
looking my truck over for damage, allowed me to leave. 

Where I carry, depends on how I'm dressed. If I'm in a tux it's under my
arm, if I'm in a zippered jacket, it's on my side.

The law is strange, here, about what establishments I can carry into.
I can carry into a bank, or an ABC store, but not a restaurant that serves
alcohol. Bar's are out, too..... but in Va. a bar must serve food, so that
makes it a restaurant.

Charles


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## Erich (Aug 23, 2007)

9mm cyc


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## SoD Stitch (Aug 23, 2007)

Erich, that looks like a Walther P38. Is it?


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## Erich (Aug 23, 2007)

a special little 7.62mm and fires better and more accurate than my P-38 above. From WW 1, an aviators pistol that saw action in WW 2 with a LW pilot an also with matching holster.

E ~ SoD yes it is, late war with reddish grips


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## ccheese (Aug 23, 2007)

Eric:

Fine looking weapons...... goes well with a bazooka !

Charles


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## peterbruce2002 (Aug 24, 2007)

managed to pick myself up an m733 colt commando - very small gun for an automatic machine rifle! 
um also got a glock 23f, a SOCOM (with broken LAM attachment) and a m3 Shorty Shotgun. 

does it disqualify me that all my guns are BB in nature? im in the UK, after all!


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## comiso90 (Aug 24, 2007)

Erich said:


> a special little 7.62mm and fires better and more accurate than my P-38 above. From WW 1, an aviators pistol that saw action in WW 2 with a LW pilot an also with matching holster.
> 
> E ~ SoD yes it is, late war with reddish grips



Very cool.. but I cringe at the lack of gloves or a cloth. White cotton photo gloves are great.

BTW- you probably know but never store guns in the leather holster long term. It will attract moisture to the gun and promote corrosion.

.


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## Catch22 (Aug 24, 2007)

Clave said:


> Guns owned: 0
> Number of people nearby with guns: 0
> Likely number of times being held up at gunpoint: 0
> Number of policemen killed in this area in 30 years: 1
> ...



Completely agree, the only guns I have any interest in are WW2 vintage (non firing of course!).


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## Erich (Aug 24, 2007)

the pics of the two side arms were taken years ago for another militaria forum. They are both shooters and do well although many would freak. Personally I do not care what others think in this case.

~ here is a very rare piece I own. A 1940 G33/40, worth plenty if you know anything about this fine weapon.

~ also have a nice K98 Karbine but it is broken down right now. Do not despair I know full well about moisture and dryness and what it can do


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## lucanus (Aug 24, 2007)

> Guns owned: 0
> Number of people nearby with guns: 0
> Likely number of times being held up at gunpoint: 0
> Number of policemen killed in this area in 30 years: 1
> ...


 Clave


Guns owned: 5
Number of people nearby with guns: not worried about it
Likely number of times being held up at gunpoint: better than even
Number of policemen killed in this area in 30 years: more than 1
Chances of getting robbed: .5%
Reasons to buy a gun: self defense, keep those dang squirrels off the birdfeeder,
the list is endless....

But then remember that I am just a country boy from Texas...who see
the world a bit different than you


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## Screaming Eagle (Aug 25, 2007)

erich, how do you come upon some fine pieces? (I especially love the bazooka!)


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## Erich (Aug 25, 2007)

SE well they were vet acquirements except for the Bazooka.

I will tell all of you the story in brief form. I was in the 6th grade ....... (man that seems like an eternity ago). One day my dad and I were driving south of town, crossed the great Rogue river heading to the only sporting goods shop in the small town - at the time. this was back in 1964. What was in place at the front of the shop for at least a year were two huge and had to be at least 15 feet in length, two big aluminum fake fishing lures side by side and what I had noticed during the month was something dark with a type of shield stuck underneath the lures. Well dad had to pick up the latest fishing gadgets for a trip to the high lakes so he went in and I got real curious............WHOA........

i could not believe my eyes. i went in and asked the owner behind the front high counter and he came out and pulled the thing out, it was dusty, cobwebs on the shield and spiders down the barrel, he told me it had been sitting under those big boy lures for 2 years and no-one had an interest in seeing it except for little ol me. He then proceeded to tell me it was $ 20.00 bucks. I of course knew exactly what the "thing" was and pleaded with my dad on the spot. Dad begrudginly said where are you going to put it ? ......in your bedroom or in the garage ? let me worry about that pop. he forked over a 20.00 dollar bill extra to the guy, the owner just smiled and shook his head as we tried almost in vain to cram that long sucker through the back and out the side windows of my dads yellow Ford Falcon.

life is funny ........ ~ the shield is Wehrmacht grey and the barrel is green, have been told this was in service on the Finnish/northern front and taken after war by the Finns who re-painted it green and put an SA marking on the barrel.


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## R-2800 (Aug 26, 2007)

You are so lucky!!!


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## Screaming Eagle (Aug 26, 2007)

wow, times were alot simpler back then erich, good find!


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## ccheese (Aug 27, 2007)

They had a home invasion on the next block over from me, over the week-
end. Some dude broke into a ladie's house by cutting a rear screen and
climbing in. This was at 0210.... and she was still up. He attacked her
with a night-stick, and she drilled him _*twice*_. Once right
through the heart and again between the upper lip and the bottom of
the nose. _The ME sez he was dead before his knees buckled_.

She's 71, and the widow of a retired police officer. She used his old
police .38 revolver. The paper said, "No charges will be filed".

Good girl !!

Charles

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## Erich (Aug 27, 2007)

Har har...............what a frickin idiot. we have had the same thing here several times, though we have a monstrous survival contingent that resides in our Platonic sphere Charles, so a good portion of our elderly population is well armed.


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## ccheese (Aug 27, 2007)

Eric: I think the moral of this story is, "never bring a night stick to a gun 
fight".....

Charles


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## Erich (Aug 27, 2007)

or simply "leave other folks property alone" ............

E ~

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## SoD Stitch (Aug 27, 2007)

Erich said:


> or simply "leave other folks property alone" ............
> 
> E ~



" . . . . and stay outta their house!"

Sweet! That guy got what he deserved; I'm glad no charges were filed.

Now, out here in CA, it would be a different story; the poor old homeowner who was just defending his/her property (and self) would probably go to jail for "violating" the criminals "rights". What rights?!?!?!?!?! The guy lost his rights as soon as he put a foot through the window!


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## mkloby (Aug 27, 2007)

Gotta be an idiot to invade someone's home in the south. You might as well knock on someone's front door and ask them to shoot you.


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## Aussie1001 (Aug 29, 2007)

not here you would probably get done for murder if you nailed him and torture if you didn't....
Not sure though......
Erich very interested to see that, dad has something a little more modern. (he is an arms collector and has over 120 guns as well as other assorted arms and ammunition. Among the prizes as i see it are a Boys anti tank rifle, an AR 10 assult rifle, a Luger and every type of Lee-Enfield from the 1 right through to the 5. Also has numerous mausers. My guns include a little Brno 22 mk 1 and a 12gauge that i use for clay target shooting....


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## Screaming Eagle (Aug 29, 2007)

that sounds good aussie. and I'm glad that home invader got what he deserved.


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## Magister (Apr 12, 2009)

I have a small collection.

Glock 27





Glock 35






Ruger SP101 2-1/2" .357 Magnum





Ruger Redhawk, 7-1/2" Barrel, Stainless in .44 Magnum





Ruger Number 1 in .338 Wichester Magnum






Remington 870 Express Super Mag Turkey Synthetic





Marlin bolt action .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire





Bushmaster A2 Target





Springfield M1A Standard Loaded Stainless


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## mkloby (Apr 12, 2009)

Nice magister - I like the revolvers!


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## Butters (Apr 12, 2009)

I've got a model '95 Winchester Lever Action in nickel steel and .35WCF (Which hasn't been made forever...) that was made in 1898. It weighs close to ten pounds and you can't get ammo, so I don't use it. It was my great-grandfather's, who was a guide.

I also have his Winchester 1890(manu. in '03) .22 pump with the octagon barrel, and an even older, very small bolt-action single-shot .22 that weighs about 2 1/2 lbs. I don't know who it's made by, altho it does have 'Sport' engraved just ahead of the rear sight.

An old sporterized Lee-Enfield .303 that still shoots like a champ.

An old Ithaca Featherlight 12 ga. pump that is my all-around favorite (I bought it used when I was 14)

A gorgeous Browning Citori O/U 12 ga that I can't snap-shoot with worth a damn. I guess I'm just too used to the old Ithaca. That old, beat-up pump just shoots wherever I'm lookin. There's nothin' like hunting with an old and trusted pal ;o)


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## Sweb (Apr 12, 2009)

Target: 1923 .22 Colt Pre-Woodsman 98%, 1940-ish .22 Hi-Standard H-D Military also 98% and a Ruger 1022 rifle.

Home Protection and regular target: Springfield 1911 .45 Mil-Spec.


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## Torch (Apr 12, 2009)

...


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## Torch (Apr 12, 2009)

..................

I resized them for you....

Charles


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## sturmer (Apr 13, 2009)

Konigstiger205 said:


> No...its near to impossible for the common folk to own a gun....either you are very rich or very rich and connected and the laws are just plain stupid...for example if you kill someone in self defense you are still going to jail.Or if you are in your house and a thief attacks you with a..lets say a knife you are only allowed to attack him with a similar weapon......what can I say...my country is run by idiots...greedy idiots...



same here mate, we have to ask the governor if we "may" own a gun after we have taken a psychic test and after we have a paper of good behaviour (with no criminal records what so ever). then you can have a gun with ammo (the ammo is another license). guns of wars (wwI, wwII,...) had to be dismantled by drilling the ammochamber. now they changed it so we can own a gun in firing condition without license (but we cant have any ammo at all).
the you have to know that last year allot of historical weapons where dismantled and melted down or they got drilled holes in the ammo chambers and wellded inside the barrel. so this country is just f***** up on that matter.

i luckely have a Mauser K98k that could be in firing condition but i just need to have the firing pin with the lock chamber.


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## mkloby (Apr 13, 2009)

sturmer said:


> same here mate, we have to ask the governor if we "may" own a gun after we have taken a psychic test and after we have a paper of good behaviour (with no criminal records what so ever). then you can have a gun with ammo (the ammo is another license). guns of wars (wwI, wwII,...) had to be dismantled by drilling the ammochamber. now they changed it so we can own a gun in firing condition without license (but we cant have any ammo at all).
> the you have to know that last year allot of historical weapons where dismantled and melted down or they got drilled holes in the ammo chambers and wellded inside the barrel. so this country is just f***** up on that matter.
> 
> i luckely have a Mauser K98k that could be in firing condition but i just need to have the firing pin with the lock chamber.



Is the population, by and large, content with such laws? Same question for you Konigstiger...


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## timshatz (Apr 13, 2009)

mkloby said:


> Nice magister - I like the revolvers!



I like them too. They tend not to jam. Big problem I have with Semi Auto.


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## Amsel (Apr 13, 2009)

[/IMG]


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## CharlesBronson (Apr 13, 2009)

Nice armed people we got here.

The mine:

Bersa Thunder 9x19mm pistol ( old model with micrometric sights and 15 rounds magazine)

IGA 12/76 over and under shotgun.

Rubi Extra 16/70 single shot shotgun

Norinco JW15 .22 magnum bolt action rifle. A couple of airguns too.

Im planning to buy a Uberti .44 cap and ball Revolver and/or a Bersa .22 lr, cant decide yet.


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## Torch (Apr 13, 2009)

hehehehe just the tip of the iceberg.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Apr 13, 2009)

Amsel, is that a variant of an AK-47? I'm guessing it can only go semi-auto.


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## Amsel (Apr 14, 2009)

It is a Chinese AK with a tapco stock and Galil style gaurd. Plus a peepsight that lets me bounce a coke can around rapidfire at 75 meters. Semiauto unfortunatley.


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## Catch22 (Apr 14, 2009)

You can't legally buy fully-automatic weapons in the US, correct? I know you can't here.


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## Ivan1GFP (Apr 14, 2009)

It is quite legal to buy Fully Automatic guns in the US. The paperwork is a bit more than for buying a regular gun. Basically, you need some forms filled out by your local police, fingerprints, and when everything is approved, there is a $200 transfer fee to be paid to the US Treasury.

As of May 19, 1986, the number of full autos in US civilian hands is capped. No additional guns may be registered after that date that may be sold to civilians. I believe that dealer samples, demo stuff, and of course stuff destined for various police orgs may still be produced.

I believe those are the essentials. If anyone knows different, do comment.
- Ivan.

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## Vassili Zaitzev (Apr 14, 2009)

Amsel said:


> It is a Chinese AK with a tapco stock and Galil style gaurd. Plus a peepsight that lets me bounce a coke can around rapidfire at 75 meters. Semiauto unfortunatley.



Nice. Looks cool.


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## Magister (Apr 14, 2009)

And then there's the price of a full auto gun. An M-16 will cost you perhaps $18,000.


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## Catch22 (Apr 14, 2009)

Ivan1GFP said:


> It is quite legal to buy Fully Automatic guns in the US. The paperwork is a bit more than for buying a regular gun. Basically, you need some forms filled out by your local police, fingerprints, and when everything is approved, there is a $200 transfer fee to be paid to the US Treasury.
> 
> As of May 19, 1986, the number of full autos in US civilian hands is capped. No additional guns may be registered after that date that may be sold to civilians. I believe that dealer samples, demo stuff, and of course stuff destined for various police orgs may still be produced.
> 
> ...



Ah, thanks Ivan!


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## muller (Apr 14, 2009)

The only way to get a gun in Ireland is to get a licence. For that you need to join a gun club(easiest) or get written permission from 3 landowners to hunt on their land and then pass a police check. Then you can get a shotgun or a .22 rifle for hunting. Or those pistols rifles for target shooting.

Last time I can remember someone shooting and killing an intruder was about 4 years ago. Some old farmer living on his own in the middle of nowhere blasted a trespasser (twice!) with a shotgun. He feared was going to rob him as there had been a number of instances in the area around that time. He got 6 years for manslaughter, he was acquited a year later after a retrial. 

I don't have a gun, I have a rottweiller, a german shepherd and a bull terrier


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## GrauGeist (Apr 14, 2009)

In order to get a fully automatic weapon, you have to clear DOJ and BATF checks and pay an annual fee *if* you're approved and that's after you've explained to them why you wish to possess it. A class III FFL also allows possesion/ownership of a full-auto, along with some stiff fees.

I tossed together some photos of my favorites in my collection. It's definately not the full collection and I apologize for the poor quality of the photos.


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## sturmer (Apr 14, 2009)

mkloby said:


> Is the population, by and large, content with such laws? Same question for you Konigstiger...



if ur asking if the majority is happy i guess so, but the rest of the people who like guns for sports or hunting or just to keep em for collecting arent happy with it at all. its getitng harder and harder to get a gun without all those paperworks and then it isnt garanteed that you may use them. then you have to go to shootingclubs were that calibre is allowed. Belgium hasnt got many clubs and even huntingseasons are very very limited.


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## fly boy (Apr 16, 2009)

I think my dad has an M1A1 laying around somewhere


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## fly boy (Apr 16, 2009)

Amsel said:


> [/IMG]



one things for sure these things don't jam


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## Matt308 (Apr 16, 2009)

You got that right, fly boy. Even when you don't take care of them, they don't jam. While they are accurate enough, they don't hold a candle to comperable weapons however. But I'd go to mine first if the zombie hordes appeared.

Graugeist, you like your Ruger Mini14? How's the accuracy? I've always wanted one, but have heard some rather disparaging comments about its accuracy. My understanding is that just last year Ruger revamped the Mini14 line to specifically address the accuracy concern. I suspect the issue is overblown. Like the old M1 Carbine, 4-5 MOA at 100yds is likely accurate enough.


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## comiso90 (Apr 16, 2009)

The fastest clip you'll probably ever see.

The fastest clip change you'll probably ever see.

.


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## drgondog (Apr 16, 2009)

Matt308 said:


> You got that right, fly boy. Even when you don't take care of them, they don't jam. While they are accurate enough, they don't hold a candle to comperable weapons however. But I'd go to mine first if the zombie hordes appeared.
> 
> Graugeist, you like your Ruger Mini14? How's the accuracy? I've always wanted one, but have heard some rather disparaging comments about its accuracy. My understanding is that just last year Ruger revamped the Mini14 line to specifically address the accuracy concern. I suspect the issue is overblown. Like the old M1 Carbine, 4-5 MOA at 100yds is likely accurate enough.



Matt - I had one, did have accuracy issues, bedded it and perhaps cut the groups in half - but not enough for me so I traded it off.

Bedding it is exactly like bedding a M-1 or M-1A1 same receiver points of contact. I have found that if the weapon doesn't shoot reasonably well (M-1) bedding doesn't help much.

I can't remember whether the quote came from Askins or Whelan or (?) but the statement "only accurate rifles are interesting' does apply to me.

I also ran through quite a few Pigeon guns to find points of impact for top and bottom barrels that suited me - but finally Briley's eccentric chokes took all the fun out of looking at shotgun patterns


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## Colin1 (Apr 17, 2009)

Reasonably topical

Obama, Calderón: Assault-gun ban could curb border violence - CNN.com


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## Torch (Apr 17, 2009)

I call bull**** on the line about arms coming from the US, yes some, 16000? How come nobody has traced the serial numbers back to whomever sold them or bought them? Lets see I have an unlimited supply of AK47 etc coming from other South American countries which cost maybe 300-400$s each compared to an AR15 which is running north of 800$s and the difficulty of getting thru atleast a semi guarded border compared to Mexico's southern border, plus it's been proven that the corrupt Mexican military does business with the drug cartels and it's the US's fault? NOT. Just another twisted way of trying to clamp legal, law abiding citizens who uphold the Constituion with a way of disarming them............


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## Amsel (Apr 17, 2009)

It is a classic hair brained scheme. The Mexicano drug cartels are murdering scum so we need to disarm American citizens. The violence in Mexico is just another reason for me to stay armed.


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## timshatz (Apr 17, 2009)

Anybody catch "Fast Eddy" Rendell on CNBC this morning. Got on a rant about banning assault weapons. Said assult weapons jam easy in the same sentence he mentioned the AK-47. The guy is a political hack, through and through. Ranted about guns and how he had talked with Feinstien (and others) and they were going to put the ban back. 

The guy is a son of a bitch. No two ways about it. He's piggybacking on the death of those three cops in Pittsburgh to show his colors for the Obama administration. He's a lame duck Gov, has about a year and a half left and figures if he shows his liberal colors, he'll get picked up by the Obama admin when he leaves office. Either that or he becomes a consultant as he hasn't worked an honest day in the last 35 years (been a politician the whole time). 

What a prick!


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## Magister (Apr 17, 2009)

Torch, the following piece is instructive on the now perpetual repetition that 90% of the guns used in crimes in Mexico come from the U.S.

The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S. - Presidential Politics | Political News - FOXNews.com

*The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.*

You've heard this shocking "fact" before -- on TV and radio, in newspapers, on the Internet and from the highest politicians in the land: 90 percent of the weapons used to commit crimes in Mexico come from the United States.

-- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said it to reporters on a flight to Mexico City.

-- CBS newsman Bob Schieffer referred to it while interviewing President Obama.

-- California Sen. Dianne Feinstein said at a Senate hearing: "It is unacceptable to have 90 percent of the guns that are picked up in Mexico and used to shoot judges, police officers and mayors ... come from the United States."

-- William Hoover, assistant director for field operations at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, testified in the House of Representatives that "there is more than enough evidence to indicate that over 90 percent of the firearms that have either been recovered in, or interdicted in transport to Mexico, originated from various sources within the United States."

There's just one problem with the 90 percent "statistic" and it's a big one:

It's just not true.

In fact, it's not even close. The fact is, only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S.

What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."

But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

"Not every weapon seized in Mexico has a serial number on it that would make it traceable, and the U.S. effort to trace weapons really only extends to weapons that have been in the U.S. market," Matt Allen, special agent of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), told FOX News.

Video:Click here to watch more.

A Look at the Numbers

In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.

But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.

In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S.

So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

'These Don't Come From El Paso'

Ed Head, a firearms instructor in Arizona who spent 24 years with the U.S. Border Patrol, recently displayed an array of weapons considered "assault rifles" that are similar to those recovered in Mexico, but are unavailable for sale in the U.S.

"These kinds of guns -- the auto versions of these guns -- they are not coming from El Paso," he said. "They are coming from other sources. They are brought in from Guatemala. They are brought in from places like China. They are being diverted from the military. But you don't get these guns from the U.S."

Some guns, he said, "are legitimately shipped to the government of Mexico, by Colt, for example, in the United States. They are approved by the U.S. government for use by the Mexican military service. The guns end up in Mexico that way -- the fully auto versions -- they are not smuggled in across the river."

Many of the fully automatic weapons that have been seized in Mexico cannot be found in the U.S., but they are not uncommon in the Third World.

The Mexican government said it has seized 2,239 grenades in the last two years -- but those grenades and the rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) are unavailable in U.S. gun shops. The ones used in an attack on the U.S. Consulate in Monterrey in October and a TV station in January were made in South Korea. Almost 70 similar grenades were seized in February in the bottom of a truck entering Mexico from Guatemala.

"Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semi-automatic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California," according to a report in the Los Angeles Times.

Boatloads of Weapons

So why would the Mexican drug cartels, which last year grossed between $17 billion and $38 billion, bother buying single-shot rifles, and force thousands of unknown "straw" buyers in the U.S. through a government background check, when they can buy boatloads of fully automatic M-16s and assault rifles from China, Israel or South Africa?

Alberto Islas, a security consultant who advises the Mexican government, says the drug cartels are using the Guatemalan border to move black market weapons. Some are left over from the Central American wars the United States helped fight; others, like the grenades and launchers, are South Korean, Israeli and Spanish. Some were legally supplied to the Mexican government; others were sold by corrupt military officers or officials.

The exaggeration of United States "responsibility" for the lawlessness in Mexico extends even beyond the "90-percent" falsehood -- and some Second Amendment activists believe it's designed to promote more restrictive gun-control laws in the U.S.

In a remarkable claim, Auturo Sarukhan, the Mexican ambassador to the U.S., said Mexico seizes 2,000 guns a day from the United States -- 730,000 a year. That's a far cry from the official statistic from the Mexican attorney general's office, which says Mexico seized 29,000 weapons in all of 2007 and 2008.

Chris Cox, spokesman for the National Rifle Association, blames the media and anti-gun politicians in the U.S. for misrepresenting where Mexican weapons come from.

"Reporter after politician after news anchor just disregards the truth on this," Cox said. "The numbers are intentionally used to weaken the Second Amendment."

"The predominant source of guns in Mexico is Central and South America. You also have Russian, Chinese and Israeli guns. It's estimated that over 100,000 soldiers deserted the army to work for the drug cartels, and that ignores all the police. How many of them took their weapons with them?"

But Tom Diaz, senior policy analyst at the Violence Policy Center, called the "90 percent" issue a red herring and said that it should not detract from the effort to stop gun trafficking into Mexico.

"Let's do what we can with what we know," he said. "We know that one hell of a lot of firearms come from the United States because our gun market is wide open."


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## renrich (Apr 17, 2009)

Magister, I notice you have a No. 1 Ruger. What caliber? Have you shot it a lot. I don't hunt much anymore but when I did I hunted a lot on horseback and my favorite was the No. 1. Mine is a 270 Win and I used to handload for it. 58 grains of Hodgdon 4831 behind a 150 grain Nosler Partition. I had it chronographed at 3000 FPS muzzle velocity and it would print 3 shot min of angle groups all day. 2 x 7 Leupold and zeroed at 300 yards. Dropped 18-20 inches at 500 yards. Shooting from a rest or sitting with a loop sling, made a number of kills on Mulies at 500 paces or so. Incidently, for those interested, Hodgdon 4831 used to be a war surplus powder used to load 20 MM, I think, rounds.


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## Matt308 (Apr 17, 2009)

The Ruger No. 1 is an elegant looking single shot. But for some reason (likely unfounded) I was under the impression they weren't all that accurate. I do know that there was a recent write up in one of my gun rags about a guy who restocks and re-barrels them with French Walnut and Kreiger barrels. Man were they pretty. Can't go wrong with .270 for just about anything in the US. That would make a good rig.


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## Matt308 (Apr 17, 2009)

I may have mentioned this before, but I have an M1D Garand Sniper with all the accoutrements, Mk84 stadia line scope and letter of authenticity from Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP). Its mint. Got it for $600 from a CMP raffle. Last I checked it was worth a princely sum.


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## Magister (Apr 17, 2009)

My Ruger Number 1 is in .338 Winchester Magnum. I haven't shot it much. Only have put about 20 rounds through it but it was Federal's High Energy loads that develop in excess of 4,000fpe and they were not fun to shoot. I was getting about 2-1/2" groups at 100 yards but I was preoccupied with the recoil more than precision shooting so it can do much better than that.

I agree with the .270. Very flat shooting and with today's tough bullets, adeqate for anything in North America although I would still feel safer with a 338 Win if a big bear was chasing me down.


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## renrich (Apr 17, 2009)

Way back when, and this was in the late 60s, when I bought my No. 1, believe it was $265, I did a lot of handloading and really got into the ballistics of it. Did a lot of research and working up loads. I discovered that with a 150 grain bullet and the No. 1's 26 inch barrel, it was possible to get up to 3000 FPS MV and that was more velocity than could comfortably be acheived with the 3006. Plus the 150 grain .277 bullet had a better BC than the .308 bullet so the downrange ballistics were better. The No. 1 I have was not terribly accurate with 130 grain factory loads but the heavier the loads I experimented with with the 150 grain bullet, the tighter the groups. So I gradually worked up to 58 grains of 4831. Had a friend, a retired US Army Colonel who had a chronograph and we went to the rifle range to see what was happening. He was surprised to see that the result was the 3000 FPS which my handloading manuals had forecast. The load is a max load but works well in this rifle with no extraction problems, primer flattening or case splitting. The odd thing is there is a asymetrical bright ring around the base of each fired case, regardless of whether it is a factory load or handload, which may indicate a headspace problem or some kind of chamber dimension problem but I have had no cases separate at the base after several reloadings so I have ignored it. My son in law just bought a No. 1 in 300 Weatherby Mag at a distress sale for a really low number with 150 rounds of ammo, so, unless he sells it, one of these days he will have two No 1s. The No 1 can really be fired rapidly with practise and if spare loads are kept on the belt, but one shot is usually all one needs and it is an ideal saddle rifle.


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## dragncar (Apr 17, 2009)

Hi,first post here.
A Winchester model 43 in .218 Bee
AJ.C Higginns .22LR semi auto tube feed
A Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44 Mag. " barrel
A Ruger SP 101 in .357 Mag
A SKS in 7.62X 39
A semi auto .22LR pistol


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## GrauGeist (Apr 17, 2009)

Matt308 said:


> Graugeist, you like your Ruger Mini14? How's the accuracy? I've always wanted one, but have heard some rather disparaging comments about its accuracy. My understanding is that just last year Ruger revamped the Mini14 line to specifically address the accuracy concern. I suspect the issue is overblown. Like the old M1 Carbine, 4-5 MOA at 100yds is likely accurate enough.


Yep Matt, I do like it. It's a nice light weapon with a soft recoil, rests easy on the shoulder and has a good rate of fire. I can vouch for it's accuracy up to about 100 yards, beyond that I'm not sure, since I've never really put it to the test. It rarely jams and is a snap to clean, so it's a definate plus to have in the collection.

Funny you'd mention the M1 carbine, that's a favorite of mine, and I think the Mini14 is comparable to it in many respects. (I have both a mid-number Rockola which I never shoot and a well-used Saginaw which I do...lol)

My Mini is about 25 years old and was well-built, so I'm wondering if the quality of the Mini14 declined some over the years, leading some folks to complain about it's performance.

* And nice collection, dragncar, welcome to the forums! *


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## Ivan1GFP (Apr 17, 2009)

Hey Drgondog,

I've pulled apart a few M1A, M1 Garands, and Mini-14s before. The receivers aren't all that different, but the gas system on a Mini-14 is more like a M1 Carbine than a M14 rifle. The wooden stock can NOT be clearanced away from the "Op rod" as you might do on M1 and M14. Accuracy of the couple I have fired is about as poor as the ones you all are describing. The rear sight is also a bit too coarse in adjustment in the standard gun and not worth describing in the Ranch Rifle.

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (Apr 17, 2009)

I personally haven't ever tested this theory, but my understanding is that generally mediocre accuracy from the Ruger No.1 is because of the way the wooden foreend is hung on the gun. Folks try to isolate the wood from the barrel and sometimes put in a tensioning screw to put pressure from the foreend hanger to the barrel and tune it for accuracy.

- Ivan.


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## slaterat (Apr 17, 2009)

I like your .300 Savage GrauGeist. That's a true classic.

Slaterat


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## GrauGeist (Apr 17, 2009)

Ivan1GFP said:


> I personally haven't ever tested this theory, but my understanding is that generally mediocre accuracy from the Ruger No.1 is because of the way the wooden foreend is hung on the gun. Folks try to isolate the wood from the barrel and sometimes put in a tensioning screw to put pressure from the foreend hanger to the barrel and tune it for accuracy.
> 
> - Ivan.


Ivan, is this something that plagued the Mini14 throughout it's entire run, or was there differences between the years?



slaterat said:


> I like your .300 Savage GrauGeist. That's a true classic.
> 
> Slaterat


Thanks slaterat, I agree!

When I was a youngster, I had the opportunity to run some rounds through a family member's .300 Savage, and I immediately fell in love with it. It was the model with the brass rib over the foresight and brass round indicator, instead of the usual steel version. It took me decades to find a similiar one!


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## Amsel (Apr 18, 2009)

There are many products out that you can get to make your Mini-14 more accurate. Those thin barreled older types are not very straight shooting. I really like the actions on the Rugers though.


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## Magister (Apr 18, 2009)

The new Mini-14's have thicker barrels and are purported to have better accuracy due to more barrel stiffness.


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## Ivan1GFP (Apr 18, 2009)

Hello GrauGeist et al.

The characteristics of the Mini-14 that make it less than optimal for accuracy haven't changed much over the decades. The barrel is thin and fairly poor quality from other's descriptions. Ruger also makes a "Heavy Barrel" version, but I don't know how much of an improvement that was. I don't happen to own either, so I can't confirm barrel quality as I am writing this. The barrel is also only 18 inches long, so long range ballistics are not good. I remember from the last one I disassembled that the op rod wobbled all over the place and used the stock to keep things more or less stable. I was looking at it with the idea of using techniques from accurizing M1A / M14 rifles on it and they simply wouldn't work as far as the gas system was concerned.

There was a company called "Accuracy Systems" that could basically rebuild a Mini-14 into a 1 MOA or better rifle, but the cost of this was considerably more than a brand new Colt AR-15 at the time and a tuned AR-15 is still more accurate.

The click adjustable rear sight (not ranch rifle) is too coarse with about 2 MOA adjustments per click, but folks sometimes file extra notches so that there are eight clicks per revolution for windage. I remember pulling targets at a high power range when the fellow shooting at a nearby target was hitting first one one side of the bull and then on the other but never could get one in the center. I was told later that he was firing a Mini-14. Accuracy was about the same as the M1 Garands on the line (2-4 MOA with LC Ball).

Ruger was also planning something called a XGI .308 Winchester version and advertised it heavily as a competitor to the M14 types. Near as I can tell, this was never actually sold anywhere. I personally have never seen one.

- Ivan.


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## renrich (Apr 18, 2009)

We better cherish the guns we own because I suspect that more gun control is in the offing, especially with the so called "assault weapons." Evidence is a recent comment by obama that "90% of the weapons seized by Mexican authorities in the drug wars come from the US." This information has also been echoed by H clinton and diane feinstein. Seemingly the obama administration is going to help Mexico by somehow inhibiting this "flood" of weapons going into Mexico from the US. Problem is that obama and his minions are misinformed(or maybe lying?) The BATF says that "of the guns submitted to the BATF by Mexican authorities for tracing, 90% had US origins." In other words, if the weapon has a US manufacturer trademark or serial number, the gun is submitted to the BATF for tracing. If the weapon was manufactured outside the US or has a foreign serial number, it is not submitted to the BATF for tracing. Big difference! The obama administration has been asked to clarify this situation but so far have not reaponded. Does anyone believe that if all gun supply from the US was somehow cut off, the Mexican drug dealers would run out of guns or the Mexican drug wars would diminish?


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## Amsel (Apr 18, 2009)

I agree renrich, the 2nd Amendment must be protected. Now would be a good time to join the NRA if you haven't already. You may not agree with them 100% of the time but they fight hard to protect our liberty. Especially the liberty of life.


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## renrich (Apr 18, 2009)

I am a life member of the NRA and I hope that every gun owner and every freedom loving American will support the NRA. As Amsel says, the NRA does not always please me but they are a major bulwark against the left for liberty loving citizens of the US. Frankly, I would be chary of showing photos online of my guns.


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## Matt308 (Apr 18, 2009)

renrich said:


> Frankly, I would be chary of showing photos online of my guns.




And thus you don't see me chiming in. I trust my gov't about as far as I can throw it.


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## Torch (Apr 18, 2009)

thats why I didn't post anything else,had a brain fart for a moment.


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## GrauGeist (Apr 18, 2009)

I enjoy responsible gun ownership along with a vast majority (note: majority) of Americans, and I would offer a little bit of friendly advice to anyone snooping around, who would be taking notes on "who has what" for thier report:

I also own a few knives, claw hammers, a number of screw-drivers (assorted tips) and a couple of vehicles that weigh about 3,200 pounds each and let's not forget the drawer full of butter knives. Any of which can cause extremly painful bodily harm and I am proficient in the use of any of the above. So better make a note to round up anything sharper than, but including, a teaspoon while you're at it.

Oh, almost forgot:

bring alot of help


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## Matt308 (Apr 18, 2009)

...and a lunch. It likely will be an all day job to kick GrauGeist's ass.


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## comiso90 (Apr 18, 2009)

Today was a close one.... 

I went to a Gunshow in Tampa. There weren't enough historical items but it was very cool anyway. I fell in love with this baby:
Springfield Armory

If I was back home in Cali... I prob woulda whipped out my credit card. Fortunately, there doesn't seem to be much open land here in fla so I couldnt rationalize the purchase. 

Holy crap, it was beautiful.


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## Ivan1GFP (Apr 18, 2009)

Hello Comiso90,
No open land is no excuse for not buying a M1A / M14. I'm sure you can find a 100 yard range somewhere.

Hello GrauGeist,
Hopefully this country will never get to the point where it is chasing its own citizens for exercising a right acknowledged in the Constitution. FWIW: 3 out of 4 people in my family are Life NRA members. My wife isn't, but before the kids came along, she did quite a lot of shooting with me.

BTW, I noticed an odd thing. Your quote of my post earlier was of the Ruger No.1 but the question was about the Mini-14. I didn't notice it until now, so we both probably had the same thing in mind.

- Ivan.


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## Rasenpfeil (Apr 18, 2009)

GrauGeist said:


> I enjoy responsible gun ownership along with a vast majority (note: majority) of Americans, and I would offer a little bit of friendly advice to anyone snooping around, who would be taking notes on "who has what" for thier report:
> 
> I also own a few knives, claw hammers, a number of screw-drivers (assorted tips) and a couple of vehicles that weigh about 3,200 pounds each and let's not forget the drawer full of butter knives. Any of which can cause extremly painful bodily harm and I am proficient in the use of any of the above. So better make a note to round up anything sharper than, but including, a teaspoon while you're at it.
> 
> ...



You forgot the "Old Blade"... ya know the one... to me, it seemed very experienced....


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## Matt308 (Apr 18, 2009)

Comiso, you should have gone for it. M1As are running $1499 MSRP with little discount. Tacking on about a 4-8% FFL cost + tax, you are talking about some change. Owning M1As is akin to acknowledgement that M1 Garands were the best WWII weapon and their only improvement was a box magazine.

Do it buddy. You won't regret it even if it is a closet queen.

Oh... and buy as many mags as you can afford (12 min). And stock up on .308. Ammo prices are through the roof and are likely to rise if Obama get his excise tax wishes. You think a $1 a shot is alot... just wait for it.


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## drgondog (Apr 18, 2009)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hey Drgondog,
> 
> I've pulled apart a few M1A, M1 Garands, and Mini-14s before. The receivers aren't all that different, but the gas system on a Mini-14 is more like a M1 Carbine than a M14 rifle. The wooden stock can NOT be clearanced away from the "Op rod" as you might do on M1 and M14. Accuracy of the couple I have fired is about as poor as the ones you all are describing. The rear sight is also a bit too coarse in adjustment in the standard gun and not worth describing in the Ranch Rifle.
> 
> - Ivan.



I totally agree all points, particulary the Op rod clearance - but bedding the recivers did help a little on the Mini 14 - just not enough to suit me. I never worried particularly about anything except receiver and trigger on any of them.


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## comiso90 (Apr 18, 2009)

Matt308 said:


> Comiso, you should have gone for it. M1As are running $1499 MSRP with little discount. Tacking on about a 4-8% FFL cost + tax, you are talking about some change. Owning M1As is akin to acknowledgement that M1 Garands were the best WWII weapon and their only improvement was a box magazine.
> 
> Do it buddy. You won't regret it even if it is a closet queen.
> 
> Oh... and buy as many mags as you can afford (12 min). And stock up on .308. Ammo prices are through the roof and are likely to rise if Obama get his excise tax wishes. You think a $1 a shot is alot... just wait for it.



I respect the weapon to much to have it sit in a closet! At least its an east cart to re-load. 

freak'n beautiful!

.


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## drgondog (Apr 19, 2009)

Matt308 said:


> And thus you don't see me chiming in. I trust my gov't about as far as I can throw it.



ditto


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## drgondog (Apr 19, 2009)

comiso90 said:


> Today was a close one....
> 
> I went to a Gunshow in Tampa. There weren't enough historical items but it was very cool anyway. I fell in love with this baby:
> Springfield Armory
> ...



There are a lot of places in FL once you leave the coast. If you live in the south the Everglades is perfect for any type of shooting you want to do.. and there is a fair amount of public land in the interior.

I suspect that hunting with a rifle in the Panhandle is still verboten because of the thick pine cover.


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## renrich (Apr 19, 2009)

I have another Ruger I am proud of. It is a Model 77 bolt action, I bought perhaps 30 or so years ago. It was in 7 x 57 and I bought it on a whim. I handloaded a bunch of loads and the accuracy was so so. Read an article in "American Rifleman" about someone who converted a Model 95 or 98 Mauser(I can't remember which) in 7 x 57 into a 284 Winchester. The bolt face of 7X57 and 284 Win is identical so only rechambering is necessary. Also read that Fred Huntington who owned RCBS dies had done the same thing. The 284 Win has a case capacity the same as the 3006 or 270 Win but the 284 Win was designed to be used in a short action like a semi auto or lever action rifle and the overall length of the factory load is only 2.8 inches. Consequently some of the case capacity is used up if a long bullet is used. The key to the conversion is to have the chamber deepthroated so the bullet can be seated out further. The 284 Win case has a short neck so bullet choice is critical. In other words, if the bullet is seated too far out, the bullet will not be held firmly because the neck is so short. I went to Ed Shilen's shop and asked him if the conversion was feasible and he said, "gosh yes, I have one I have done for myself." Called Ruger and talked to the guys at their factory and asked the same question and they said it could be done but why? Typical Yankees who had never hunted in West Texas or Colorado where long shots are the norm. The 7 x 57 is at best a 200-300 yard cartridge. Anyway, I made up a dummy cartridge, using the 140 grain Nosler Partition. The cartridge is 3 and an 8th inches long and the base of the bullet is exactly at the bottom of the neck. Shilen charged me, I seem to remember, 25 dollars to rechamber. I already had a Leupold 2 x 7 fitted and I bought a Canjar trigger and had it fitted. Started working up loads using 4350 powder and like my No 1, the hotter the load, the tighter the groups. The rifle has a 22 inch light barrel and I finally settled on 58 grains of 4350 which is a compressed load and theoretically should give more than 3000 FPS. The 284 Win is a very strong case and there are absolutely no signs of excessive pressure. The load chronographed at 3100 FPS and from a rest, it will print min of angle three shot groups. I explain the accuracy because the twist, nine and one half, is ideal for that bullet at that velocity, or more likely the rechambering done by Shilen is perfectly concentric with the bore. Interestingly the down range ballistics are almost identical to my 270 Win load withe 150 grain bullet. Zeroed at 300 yards it is 18 to 20 inches low at 500 yards with more than 1000 pounds of energy at that range. I made a one shot kill(lucky as hell) on a Pronghorn, sitting with a loop sling, downhill, no wind, at 640 paces with witnesses. I estimated it was 500 yards and must have held too high. The rifle and scope with sling and four rounds weighs less than 8 pounds and would be good as a mountain rifle on all North American game, excluding Brown Bear. Wrote the late Finn Aagard describing the rifle and load and he concurred in a nice reply. The big problem with the rifle is that factory loads won't shoot well because of the deep throat and much shooting with those loads would probably erode the throat. I have eight handloads left and gave away all my empty cases and dies and press and all so I am out of business. Oh well.


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## drgondog (Apr 19, 2009)

renrich said:


> I Read an article in "American Rifleman" about someone who converted a Model 95 or 98 Mauser(I can't remember which) in 7 x 57 into a 284 Winchester. The bolt face of 7X57 and 284 Win is identical so only rechambering is necessary.
> 
> *True - except the 284 is a rebated case with .500 base instead of .473 - I have run through a LOT of 284 based wildcats (currently have a 25-284 and 6.5-284) and for an action like the short M77 you have one potential problem which is not universal. Namely the little fat case sometimes offers a feed problem from mag. It must be borderline as both of mine are the old M77 short action and I haven't had problems with these two.
> 
> ...



I love the 284 case. It was the 'short mag' before modern marketing types settled on the name. My 25-284 is just a short action 25-06 but seems to like only 115 Nosler Accubonds and 120 Nosler Partitions and 49 gr IMR4350

I have plenty of empty cases if you need some.


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## renrich (Apr 19, 2009)

Many thanks for your informative post. I haven't handloaded in years but the 4350 I was using was the DuPont, IMR and in my handloading manuals, it was noted as a maximum load. You are so right about the feeding of the cartridge. That fat case with the steep shoulder sometimes did not feed well which reminds me of the Pronghorn shot. I squeezed off the round and grabbed the bolt handle to eject and feed another round and I got a jam. I looked down to clear the jam and when I looked up the Pronghorn had turned around twice and fell over dead. I just pulled that old rifle out and the opening to the magazine is 3.25 inches so the 3 and an eighth cartridge fits ok. I fed a few rounds into the chamber and they worked fine. I too really like the 284 case and I believe it was an early example of how efficient the new short magnum cartridges are. I believe a 284 case necked down to .277 and not loaded to capacity would make an ideal military round, unless that sharp shoulder would be a problem. Shilen's shop was in Irving at the time I contacted him. He was quite nice. Another story, not me, was that Fred Huntington shot a Grizzly in BC with this same load. The round went through both shoulders and was a one shot kill.


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## drgondog (Apr 19, 2009)

renrich said:


> Many thanks for your informative post. I haven't handloaded in years but the 4350 I was using was the DuPont, IMR and in my handloading manuals, it was noted as a maximum load. You are so right about the feeding of the cartridge. That fat case with the steep shoulder sometimes did not feed well which reminds me of the Pronghorn shot. I squeezed off the round and grabbed the bolt handle to eject and feed another round and I got a jam. I looked down to clear the jam and when I looked up the Pronghorn had turned around twice and fell over dead. I just pulled that old rifle out and the opening to the magazine is 3.25 inches so the 3 and an eighth cartridge fits ok. I fed a few rounds into the chamber and they worked fine. I too really like the 284 case and I believe it was an early example of how efficient the new short magnum cartridges are. I believe a 284 case necked down to .277 and not loaded to capacity would make an ideal military round, unless that sharp shoulder would be a problem. Shilen's shop was in Irving at the time I contacted him. He was quite nice. Another story, not me, was that Fred Huntington shot a Grizzly in BC with this same load. The round went through both shoulders and was a one shot kill.



Ren - at various times I was so in love w/284 that I had 25-284, 6.5-284, 284, 30-284, 338-284 and all shot well. I just started the reload process at the middle of a 30-06 wildcat of the similar caliber - usually with IMR 4350, IMR 4831, H 414 or RL 19

The new Federal case has the same or better potential for 30-06 length all the way through the 375 - but a .416 should be out soon - as well as the stuff around 7mm and maybe .25 but the latter would be seriously overbored as far as powder capacity to bullet diameter. Didn't bother Weatherby however.


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## javlin (Apr 19, 2009)

For me my interest is just about any military issue as long as it has wood.

1:G43 matching through out,aftermaket scope mount with orginal scope 
2:M1 Garand 1956 fitted with bar sight off parade rifle
3:West Hurley Thompson,have a 10" barrel waiting to go on one day
4:1903 Springfield very nice shooter
5:FN49 only order done by FN for the Argentine Navy in .308 with detachable,about 5000 made.
6:VZ24 very nice shooter
7:K98 latest addition nothing really special had to fill that hole in the collection
8:M1a standard with my handloads can pull down 1.5" groups @ 100yds open sight
9:Savage 93 in 22mag with accurized trigger 
10:Mosant/Nagant 91/30
11:Inland M1 carbine 1944 in para trooper stock(not orginal) have original IO off to the side 
12:1911 Springfield in WWII format

The pic is M1a,G43 and the FN49


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## Amsel (Apr 19, 2009)

Very nice choice in arms.


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## Soren (Apr 20, 2009)

Javlin,

Providing that the Karabiner 98k in your collection has a mint barrel then if you only shoot heavy rounds of 190 to 200 grains with it then you've probably got the most accurate rifle in your collection, I can almost guarantee you that. 

A mistake made by many is using bullets weighing 150 to 175 grains in their K98k's, and while it can be very accurate with these bullets it simply wasn't what it was designed to shoot. The rifling of the K98k was designed specifically for heavy bullets of 190 grains or more, and thus you'll achieve by far the best results with bullets in that weight range. 

Try using the following ammunition/projectiles:
200 gr FMJ-HBT Sierra MatchKing (Handload), BC = .520
198 gr FMJ-BT s.S. Patrone (Surplus/ I suggest scavenging the bullet and handloading it into a new cartridge) BC = .584
196 gr FMJ-BT from Sellier Bellot (Pretty much a copy of the sS round, just a tiny little shorter and lighter) BC = .557

The German milsurp and S&B rounds should average around 2550 to 2600 fps, and I'd handload after that as-well.

Btw, you need to get yourself a Swiss K31, now that's a sweet rifle!


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## timshatz (Apr 20, 2009)

Nice collection Jav. Nice woodwork on those weapons.


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## Ivan1GFP (Apr 20, 2009)

Hello Soren,
The Portugese FNM ammunition is quite good also. I pulled at least one way back and found the bullet was either a 196 grain or 198 grain.

Hello Javlin,
What load do you use for the M1A? A B-Square scope mount works pretty well for that rifle. Also, I don't know if you already know this, but if your gun is match tuned, that bipod is probably hurting accuracy because it is unloading the tension between the stock and the gas system.

BTW, all VERY pretty guns. I do want a G-43, but don't have the spare cash.

- Ivan.


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## Matt308 (Apr 20, 2009)

I'll take the G43 thankyouverymuch.

And personally I have always liked the FN49. Very underrated.


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## javlin (Apr 20, 2009)

Soren what is the BC abbreviation for?I have been using some 180g bullets of late and they have been fairly accurate.But I have to agree the 190+ range do function better just that nobody makes a cheap bulk bullet like that.Ivan I am using IMR 4895 @ 42.5g with a 150gBT from Remington.The load also works pretty well with the 165g Nosler or Sierra match.Ivan I might give that a thought about the bipod I have often thought about putting the girl back in orginal stock.The front band area was really tight when I first dropped her in this one and talk about stessed the barrel and fliers HA all over.Thks for the comments,I just like to one day get off my butt and set up my Thompson with the 10" barrel in WWII wood and looks even if only semi.I got a parts kit out Russia were the barrel I would say has never seen a bullet if not just for a test fire.Cheers Kevin

Matt the FN49 is one serious stout firearm you can abuse it t death it's all forged and solid.It is not a tack driver but very well will get the job done.


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## MacArther (Apr 20, 2009)

The only thing I have close to an actual firearm is a paintball gun that I can crank to ~400-430 fps range. This one is just for kicks, because I haven't had the spring cut to change the FPS yet, and yes, it is a cheap Spyder. Added to the frozen paintballs, or the civil war replicas my friend made and gave to me, .68 cal for both, I could seriously bruise someone (dunno if I could do anything more save hitting the eyes or temples, but that accuracy doesnt happen very often with a Spyder)


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## Lucky13 (Apr 21, 2009)

Some nice looking bang-bangs there chaps! 8)


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## renrich (Apr 21, 2009)

Bill, upon checking my handloading data further(I can't find all of it because the majority of my books are packed) my NRA handloaders guide shows handloading data with following: 150 grain Winchester power point with 58 grains of IMR 4350 in a Winchester 26" pressure barrel yields 3099 FPS MV with 51510 lbs chamber pressure. I think that data made me feel that my load was safe because the pressure barrel and the heavier bullet should give higher pressures than my load would. It also correlates pretty well with the 3100 FPS MV that I got with a 22 inch barrel. However, because of the time involved since I loaded and the possible change in powder composition, I am going to tell my daughter, who will inherit the piece, that if they do any handloading to start low and work up. Unfortunately, because of the plaintiff attorneys, all published data on anything has to be conservative. Obviously, you have done much more handloading than I, as I have only loaded for the 284, 270, 3006 and 41 Mag. I have a model 1895 Browning in 3006 that I really enjoyed shooting. That big lever gun made me feel like a true frontiersman with those fat cases flying out of the receiver. Interestingly, I seem to do better offhand with the peep sight on the 1895 than with a scope on the No 1. The action on my Model 77 must be the short action as a 3006 round is longer than the opening in the receiver.


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## Matt308 (Apr 21, 2009)

javlin said:


> Soren what is the BC abbreviation for?.



Ballistic Coefficient


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## javlin (Apr 21, 2009)

Thks Matt.Kevin


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## Soren (Apr 21, 2009)

Hey Javlin,

The best commercial 8x57mm round around is probably S&B's 196 gr FMJ-BT round, and I believe the price in the US is good.

But if you're used to handloading your own ammunition I'd definitely recommend trying the 200gr Sierra MatchKing bullet. 

Providing the bore is in mint condition then firing bullets in the 190 to 200 gr weight range with the K98k and you can expect sub MOA accuracy. So it's definitely worth trying 




Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello Soren,
> The Portugese FNM ammunition is quite good also. I pulled at least one way back and found the bullet was either a 196 grain or 198 grain.



Yeah I've heard its some good stuff from a couple of friends as-well, but what about availability price ?


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## Colin1 (Apr 21, 2009)

Someone's got to ask the dumbass question

What does 'handloading' mean?

I thought all weapons were loaded by hand


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## Ivan1GFP (Apr 21, 2009)

Hello Javlin et al,

The FN49 isn't all that bad for accuracy. I believe I was firing a 7.92 version with various ammunition, but with the good stuff (all military surplus), it was doing about 2 MOA. It ISN'T quite as durable as you might imagine though. The firing pin is quite fragile. This is one of those guns you simply do NOT dry fire.

For others that may not have noticed, please observe that the magazine in the FN-49 isn't stock. The stock one is a non-detachable rounded box holding only 10 rounds. I have seen details about a conversion to use BAR magazines and mag does look like one from a BAR.

The M1A / M14 is typically tuned for match shooting by having the stock ferule apply a few pounds of downward pressure on the barrel band (hook) behind the gas cylinder. This was to dampen barrel vibrations. I have heard that the guns shoot typically much worse without the pressure. The pressure is created by glass bedding the receiver without the band in place so that the barrel is a certain distance (set by a spacer) away from the stock. When shooting a rifle match with a sling, the sling tension increases the tension of the stock pulling away from the barrel. The problem with the bipod is that the weight of the gun will unload the tension from the stock. The difference between tension and free floating will likely cause the rifle to shoot to an entirely different point of aim.

DON'T SET UP THE THOMPSON WITH A 10 INCH BARREL!!!! If you do, you will be breaking Federal law by creating a sawed-off rifle. A rifle must have a barrel at least 16 inches long!!!!

Regarding handloads for .308, I typically use the same powder charge you described or something similar to push a 168 grain HPBT match bullet to 2600-2650 fps. IMR 4064 and Winchester 748 also work pretty well for this application.

Hello Colin1,
Handloading is the process by which the spent cartridge cases are resized back to original (we hope) dimensions and the expended primer, powder, and bullet replaced with new components. It is less expensive than new ammunition and hopefully the quality is better as well. The cartridge case is the most expensive part of small arms ammunition (usually) and it is reuseable to some extent.

- Ivan.


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## Colin1 (Apr 21, 2009)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Handloading is the process by which the spent cartridge cases are resized back to original (we hope) dimensions and the expended primer, powder, and bullet replaced with new components. It is less expensive than new ammunition and hopefully the quality is better as well. The cartridge case is the most expensive part of small arms ammunition (usually) and it is reuseable to some extent


Are set-up costs high?
What equipment is involved for re-charging spent cases?
So how many times can you re-use a spent case? I imagine there's only so many times you can strike the case with a firing pin.

Since the up-scale in terrorist alert, how difficult is it to buy gunpowder etc over the counter now?


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## renrich (Apr 21, 2009)

One can get into handloading fairly inexpensively in the US but it can get expensive if you want a lot of production quickly. I haven't done any in a while and gave away all my stuff but one needs a press, scales, dies, empty cases, primers, powder and bullets, plus a few other small supplies. I don't know what current prices are but am sure they are much higher than when I started. Just a guess but maybe 500 dollars would get one started. Smokeless powder should not be much of a terrorist alert problem.


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## Colin1 (Apr 21, 2009)

renrich said:


> One can get into handloading fairly inexpensively in the US but it can get expensive if you want a lot of production quickly. I haven't done any in a while and gave away all my stuff but one needs a press, scales, dies, empty cases, primers, powder and bullets, plus a few other small supplies. I don't know what current prices are but am sure they are much higher than when I started. Just a guess but maybe 500 dollars would get one started. Smokeless powder should not be much of a terrorist alert problem.


Thanks Renrich


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## Torch (Apr 21, 2009)

Things for reloading are getting tough to find,especially primers. Most of the popular calibers are sold out at places like Natchez,Midwayusa,midsouthshooters supply and cabela's...Just about everything is on backorder.


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## drgondog (Apr 21, 2009)

Torch said:


> Things for reloading are getting tough to find,especially primers. Most of the popular calibers are sold out at places like Natchez,Midwayusa,midsouthshooters supply and cabela's...Just about everything is on backorder.



Since Obama took over the DoD is no longer able to sell once fired 5.56 brass to Natchez, etc. All being ground up and sold to china at pennies to the dollar when compared to prior prices in US for once fired brass.

Does anybody think this is a coincidence?


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## comiso90 (Apr 21, 2009)

Videos and Photos of Army Special Ops, Navy SEALs, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard in Action - Shock and Awe - Military.com

.


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## drgondog (Apr 21, 2009)

Colin1 said:


> Are set-up costs high?
> What equipment is involved for re-charging spent cases?
> So how many times can you re-use a spent case? I imagine there's only so many times you can strike the case with a firing pin.
> 
> Since the up-scale in terrorist alert, how difficult is it to buy gunpowder etc over the counter now?



Colin - it is pretty simple - and safe.

A Reloading press, a bullet seating press, a powder scale are the fundamental requirements. If you could buy them - maybe 50-100 pounds would do it for used but perfect equipment. RCBS would be the focus but Redding and many others are very good.


Depending on the load and type case 10 re-loads for non magnum is a good rule of thumb for even close to max loads. The most prominant causes for case failure are cracks around the case mouth and enlarged primer pockets.

I used to throw out my brass at 5 re-loads for my target quality rifles but now I keep for at least ten and then only discard when the above two conditions (either/or) arise.

I have been reloading for nearly 50 years and never had an unpleasant experience - either rifle, shotgun or pistol. When I was active in International Skeet and Trap compettion I would shoot 1000 rounds per week. Reloading made that feasible.


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## drgondog (Apr 21, 2009)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Regarding handloads for .308, I typically use the same powder charge you described or something similar to push a 168 grain HPBT match bullet to 2600-2650 fps. IMR 4064 and Winchester 748 also work pretty well for this application.
> 
> *I finally figured out the Black Hills Match uses 46.5 gr BL(C) and it shoots light out in three separate rifles - far better than Federal match 168's. Nosler Ballistic tips, Accubond and Sierra Matchking all keep me under .6 MOA for 5 shot groups in an M-1 (7.62x51 Navy version), M-1A1 and AR-10 *
> 
> ...



I find that the best reason (for me) for re-loading is ability to tune for the hunting bullet weight and type I want (for rifle). For punching holes I frequently gravitate to Sierra Matchking and for hunting Nosler (Ballistic tips and Accubond and partitions) or A-Square solids. It's all about what I want to kill.

I don't releoad shotgun anymore because factory and re-load prices are close. 28 ga and .410 a different story


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## MacArther (Apr 21, 2009)

Well, in keeping with getting rid of zombies during the apocalypse    ...I upgraded the paintball gun with parts from my actual Spyder. New barrel means I *MIGHT* be able to hit something 10-20 feet away, and the trigger means I can rattle out 25-30bps.







On a side note, the guns I have fired are a Enfield MV Jungle carbine (matching serial and everything), A Colt .357 with hollow points and "normal" bullets, and finally a Spanish pistol (Largo or something) that could safely fire any 9mm or .380 semi-auto bullet safely. It looked like a freakin squirt gun, but it was awesome to shoot.


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## Soren (Apr 21, 2009)

The Lee Enfield is really nice to shoot, it has a very mild kick and good accuracy, a great rifle. Also it's got an unusually smooth bolt operation.


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## Matt308 (Apr 21, 2009)

Yes it does. While some chastise it as an abomination, it is actually one of my most prized rifles. And the bolt is really smooth, even though I only have about a hundred rounds through my mint rifle. A wonderful bit of engineering she is.


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## Torch (Apr 22, 2009)

Drgondog, they actually changed that about the used brass,all back to normal and surprise it was done by some North Dakota Dem senators.


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## javlin (Apr 22, 2009)

For others that may not have noticed, please observe that the magazine in the FN-49 isn't stock. The stock one is a non-detachable rounded box holding only 10 rounds. I have seen details about a conversion to use BAR magazines and mag does look like one from a BAR

From what I understand this was the only contract FN did like this for the Argentine Navy and the only one in .308 and a detachable mag.The FN was either a 30-06 or as Ivan mentioned in 8mm.Now some Venezula rifles were done in 7mm but I can not remember if there armory did it or not?I have not heard that about the pin Ivan all I can say is I am tougher on that rifle than my M1a or any other for that matter and she has never never hiccupped.Do not worry Ivan about the 10" barrel all one has to do is go through local PD for a sign. and the paperwork to the ATF with a $200 check.Cheers Kevin


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## Amsel (Apr 22, 2009)

Soren said:


> The Lee Enfield is really nice to shoot, it has a very mild kick and good accuracy, a great rifle. Also it's got an unusually smooth bolt operation.


My grandpa(who is a Marine veteran of the PTO and is still living) swears by the .303. He builds rifles using the Enfield action as well as the Mauser. But his preference for many years has been the .303 and has brought down many large game in the Rockies using this cartridge. As a matter in fact this year will be his last hunt he says, after all he was born in 1922.


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## MacArther (Apr 22, 2009)

> The Lee Enfield is really nice to shoot, it has a very mild kick and good accuracy, a great rifle. Also it's got an unusually smooth bolt operation.


All true, unless you're using the Jungle carbine (like I was). It had a rubber but plate just to absorb some of the recoil, and I could never get 2 rounds even close together even when I aimed at the previous impact.


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## drgondog (Apr 22, 2009)

MacArther said:


> All true, unless you're using the Jungle carbine (like I was). It had a rubber but plate just to absorb some of the recoil, and I could never get 2 rounds even close together even when I aimed at the previous impact.



I have owned several Mk III and IV in my younger days. Good cartridge. The two piece stock was always a problem in obtaining the kind of accuracy I wanted.


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## Matt308 (Apr 22, 2009)

Yeah, but that sound of shucking rounds is exquisite. And for a battle rifle she's plenty accurate.


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## Ivan1GFP (Apr 22, 2009)

Hello Javlin,
If you already know about NFA guns and the paperwork to get them registered, that's great. A suggestion about the Thompson though. You might want to consider modifying the magazine catch to take USGI stick magazines. I believe this is a better option than modifying each magazine. The depth of the semi-auto receiver is not as great as the full-auto version and puts the magazine about 1/8 inch lower. Folks often just elongate the magazines' holes, but I believe this is not the best way. (Then again, you probably already know this!)

Regarding FN-49's, I personally have fired the 7.92, .30-06, and the 7 mm AND one converted to fire .308 Winchester with a 2-groove Springfield barrel turned down. The 7 mm was made by FN and not a conversion. They also made 7.65 Mauser and probably a few others but not in great quantities.

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (Apr 22, 2009)

Regarding Lee Enfield accuracy:
These rifles if set up properly are no less acurrate than the M1 Garand. I personally have shot 1.5 inch 5 shot groups with the rather poor open sights on a No.1 Mk.III*. Unfortunately I didn't do any better with the better sights on No.4.

The military tends to set up these guns with fairly long headspace. IMHO this is not good on a target gun, especially with a flexible receiver as on these guns.

On the No.4 the bolt heads are replaceable. They come in sizes marked 0,1,2,3. Do not buy a rifle that already has a 3 bolt head unless you can verify the headspace is tight. There are a couple ways to "regulate" this rifle. See the attachment for the method used by the Canadians.

On the No.1 Mk.III and Mk.III* (* only means the magazine cutoff was deleted), the barrel should NOT contact the muzzle cap. There is a spring that holds a barrel loop not visible unless the guns is disassembled. There is a screw head underneath the rifle that tensions this spring. This spring is fairly crucial to accuracy on this gun and the gun won't shoot if the spring has taken a set. The spring can be replaced with a small piece off of a M1 Garand recoil spring if necessary. The bolts heads aren't numbered, but perhaps a combination can be found with replacement parts to correct headspace if needed.

Hope this helps someone out there.
- Ivan.


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## MacArther (Apr 22, 2009)

This is the Lee Enfield I was talking about. Even according to historical reports, the zeroing of the rifle shifted from day to day, and usually without weather or outside cause. On a side note, my friend is going to let me shoot the accurized version of the Mosin Nagant (can't remember which nation made them), that he is thinking about putting on a Russian scope from the period.


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## javlin (Apr 22, 2009)

MacArther said:


> This is the Lee Enfield I was talking about. Even according to historical reports, the zeroing of the rifle shifted from day to day, and usually without weather or outside cause. On a side note, my friend is going to let me shoot the accurized version of the Mosin Nagant (can't remember which nation made them), that he is thinking about putting on a Russian scope from the period.



The Mosant Nagant is Russian and you guys are probably going to be shooting the long rifle 91/30 and not the carbine version.The 91/30's were the one's usually outfitted with the scope and get ready kicks like a mule.I might of put all of 30rds through mine in 5yrs.


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## Ivan1GFP (Apr 22, 2009)

Could be a Finnish M27 or M28 Mosin Nagant.

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (Apr 22, 2009)

Regarding the cost of reloading:

It really depends on the kind of gun you are reloading for and how much labor you are willing to put into it. The more money you spend on equipment, the less labor you put in.

For loading handgun rounds (straight wall cases), a 3 die set with a carbide sizer will cost about $40 or $50 these days. A simple press like the "Lee Hand Press" may cost about $25 or $30. A press mounted priming tool may be about $15. A good scale will probably cost about $50 minimum. (I suggest buying a good electronic scale which will cost more.) A Lee "Perfect" powder measure is about $25 or so. That covers the basic equipment needed.

For rifles, it depends seriously on what kind of rifle you are reloading for. Some guns like the H&K G3 and the Tokarev SVT-40 are just not worth reloading for. Bolt action rifles are generally pretty easy. A simple neck sizing die will do for a while (I recommend the Lee Collet Die set). For a semi-auto, you will need a full length sizer and a RCBS Precision Mic headspace gauge. A lot of folks just use the full length sizer and create a headspace problem on a gun that is in spec. A case trimmer is also rather useful for a rifle. The Lee version is inexpensive but I prefer a bench mounted type. If you are trimming cases, you will also need a deburring tool. The Lee version is about $4. The RCBS version is about $10. I forget the brand of the version I use but it is about $20. Also useful is a primer pocket reamer to clean out residue and to uniform the depth. A carbide version (necessary because steel wears out quickly) cost me about $30. I forget what the flash hole uniformer cost me (probably about $15 or so).

These days, I use a Dillon 550B press (about $500) even when I am resizing rifle cases. I only need to handle each case once and the cases end up more precise (in my experience) than if I process them through a RCBS Rock Chucker press (about $100). I actually use TWO Dillon 550Bs because I got tired of changing back and forth from large to small primers.

As you can see, it all adds up quickly.
- Ivan.


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## MacArther (Apr 22, 2009)

> Could be a Finnish M27 or M28 Mosin Nagant.



I'm pretty sure its one of those.


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## renrich (Apr 22, 2009)

Ivan, I enjoyed your post about handloading. Brings back old fond memories. One point about handloading. Often, one can work up loads that are more accurate in one's individual rifle than factory loads will be. There are a lot of premium factory loads around now when 40 or so years ago there were very few. I still believe that a well worked up handload often will surpass the accuracy of even premium factory loads and one will save money in the long run.


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## drgondog (Apr 22, 2009)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Regarding Lee Enfield accuracy:
> These rifles if set up properly are no less acurrate than the M1 Garand. I personally have shot 1.5 inch 5 shot groups with the rather poor open sights on a No.1 Mk.III*. Unfortunately I didn't do any better with the better sights on No.4.
> 
> The military tends to set up these guns with fairly long headspace. IMHO this is not good on a target gun, especially with a flexible receiver as on these guns.
> ...



It would have been useful forty years ago. For my purposes the Mauser/FN or M70 or R/700 or M77 suit me a lot better for sporting uses. In retrospect the ones I had probably had those with a minimum of 20,000 rounds fire through them.


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## drgondog (Apr 22, 2009)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Regarding the cost of reloading:
> 
> It really depends on the kind of gun you are reloading for and how much labor you are willing to put into it. The more money you spend on equipment, the less labor you put in.
> 
> ...



The Gun List, local papers, gun club bulletin boards are also good places to look for bargins from people selling their gear.

Last but not least - you MUST have a decent set of dial calipers to check case base diameter, case length and OAL of finished product


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## Ivan1GFP (Apr 23, 2009)

Hello Renrich, Drgondog:

Since you two are hand loaders also, you know that I barely touched on the subject.

Renrich,
The saving money part is a given if you shoot a lot. This is made up for by the extra time spent in experimentation. A friend of mine shoots a fairly hot .30 cal Magnum. I forget the exact caliber. I would not recommend that HE reload because he is basically a hunter and probably doesn't shoot 20 rounds ( More likely about 7 or 8 ) out of that gun in a year. I wouldn't even own that rifle because I would estimate barrel life to be about 500 rounds. With only a couple 3 round groups and a round or two fired at game each year, that rifle should outlast him.

There are factory loads out there that I find VERY hard to beat. Federal .308 Match is one. The advantage is that I can make up pretty much equivalent stuff for about half the cost. 

There are also some cartridges for which the factory specs are just plain screwed up. Look at the .300 Win Mag. You really can't put a reasonable looking match bullet in that round without crimping on the ogive. I shoot a gun with a magazine length much longer than 3.34 inch needed for the .300 Win Mag. I seat the bullets out MUCH longer and get somewhere between 0.5 inch and 0.75 inch 5 shot groups. Factories can't do that because the SAAMI spec calls for 3.34 inch max OAL. Navy folks out in Indiana came up with the same idea probably long before I did.

Drgondog,
I don't disagree you can beat the prices, but with used equipment, I like to be able to examine before buying. You never know when you might end up with someone else's rejects or a tool that has been abused. Then again, if it is RCBS brand, they will stand behind the product.

No question a dial caliper is a useful tool. I don't believe it is essential, but very useful to have. I should have listed it anyway for safety reasons.

Regarding setting the dies for headspace, I believe the RCBS Precision Mic beats the heck out of just about any other method although if your bolt face is not square with the chamber, you may get wacky readings when reading headspace of spent cases. Also, if your gas gun begins primary extraction before the chamber pressure has dropped (not uncommon with M14 / M1A rifles), readings will be overly long. In the same gun, adjusting the dwell time by shortening the gas piston actually reduced the headspace of spent cases. I also collected spent brass from about 25 M14 types I encountered at the ranges. I don't think I found even one gun that had a square bolt face.

Instead of smoking a part to determine contact, I often use a dry erase marker. Works well and isn't as messy.

- Ivan.


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## drgondog (Apr 23, 2009)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello Renrich, Drgondog:
> 
> There are factory loads out there that I find VERY hard to beat. Federal .308 Match is one. The advantage is that I can make up pretty much equivalent stuff for about half the cost.
> 
> ...



I should have thought about it - I have been using a small kerosene lamp for inletting for so long I quit thinking. 

Interesting tip about shortening the gas piston, although I true up bolt faces on all of my keepers. Like you I have also found that to be a first point of investigation when I bought a barrel for a new action and it didn't shoot to expectations,


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## wclracer64 (Apr 24, 2009)

1892 Winchester, .357 M
Ruger Vaquero (Old Model) .357 Magnum
.20 Gauge double barrel coach gun
M1858 Remington .44 Cal.
M1851 Colt Navy .
Blank firing M1911

Used to have:
1943 Dated M1 Garand
M1 Carbine

Sure do miss the Garand, ah what we'll do when we need the money!


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## fly boy (Apr 24, 2009)

you guys remember the thing about that we should have a war with one of the states i think we have enough people with guns to do so


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## Matt308 (Apr 24, 2009)

Don't feel bad wclracer. Unless you had some pedigree on your Garand, chances are it was an arsenal rebuild and worth no more than any other Garand. While they are moving up in price, they are still relatively inexpensive for your typical Garand.


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## Matt308 (Apr 24, 2009)

fly boy said:


> you guys remember the thing about that we should have a war with one of the states i think we have enough people with guns to do so



"You guys remember the thing about..."

The 'thing'. The 'thing'. Remember what now?

"...that we should have a war with one of the states..."

Any one in particular? I personally like Kalifornia. Let's war with that one. Oooo... maybe New York!

"... i think we have enough people with guns to do so."

Us forum doinks? Likely not.


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## GrauGeist (Apr 24, 2009)

Hey now...wait a minute!

Remember, we have the Governator as our chief...

We'll hold back until the bay area gets it, then the fight's on!!


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## MacArther (Apr 24, 2009)

> Hey now...wait a minute!
> 
> Remember, we have the Governator as our chief...
> 
> We'll hold back until the bay area gets it, then the fight's on!!


And once its on, the honorable Governator will lead the troops in his Terminator outfit, complete with awesome guns and cybernetic parts.....


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## Torch (Apr 24, 2009)

I actually bought an M1 garand in pretty good shape with a new barrel but it's chambered for a .308. I have a ton of .308 laying around and don't use that round here in Colorado so i figured what the hell, I got a classic plinker. I kick myself in the a** because I sold an IBM carbine(all matching numbers) an M1a from a Marine who was on there shooting team and had been worked over by their armorers with a scope because I had to pay for the divorce lawyer when I divorced my 1st wife. Dumb dumb dumb.........


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## Ivan1GFP (Apr 24, 2009)

Hello again Drgondog,

Be careful about concluding that a factory powder is a certain kind. There are LOTS of non-cannister grade powders that look an awful lot like cannister stuff. Also, the lot they used may have been a lot that was made as BLC2 but did not test properly. I found at least with my target guns that loading to velocity worked pretty well in .308. Another interesting thing was that M852 ammunition actually shot better than Federal Match, but the problem is that M852 is very hard to find.

I'll accept a rifle that can't shoot MOA. A lot of military guns won't.

For really high precision, I use a 1 inch micrometer that reads to 0.0001 inch. I also don't tend to load really hot loads. I pretty much settle for factory specs unless I am dealing with something like 8 mm Mauser where SAAMI specs are ridiculously low.

Actually I suspect we are very much in agreement. I am a tool junkie, so I tend to buy a lot of stuff that I probably won't use often. (I even have a Berdan deprimer from RCBS!) The equipment suggestion I was trying to make was just the essentials for someone on a budget.

Sorry to interrupt the discussions of rebellion.
- Ivan.


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## drgondog (Apr 25, 2009)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello again Drgondog,
> 
> Be careful about concluding that a factory powder is a certain kind. There are LOTS of non-cannister grade powders that look an awful lot like cannister stuff. Also, the lot they used may have been a lot that was made as BLC2 but did not test properly. I found at least with my target guns that loading to velocity worked pretty well in .308. Another interesting thing was that M852 ammunition actually shot better than Federal Match, but the problem is that M852 is very hard to find.
> 
> ...



Lol - tip of the hat to you. I suspect you are a further on the path to total reloading enlightenment but I am not far off - and already learned something from you.


----------



## Doughboy (Apr 25, 2009)

I own a .243,.22LR,Mosin Nagant m44 carbine, and a 20 gauge.


----------



## DBII (Apr 25, 2009)

Nothing fancy, my old stand by .45 cal Colt auto and a Mini 14 for plinking around. I have been thinking of getting the Storm .45 cal but the Mini 14 Tactical looks good. Any suggestions for a good carbine? As much as I would love an M-14 or M-1, I do not want to spend the money for a new one.

DBII


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## Amsel (Apr 25, 2009)

DBII said:


> Nothing fancy, my old stand by .45 cal Colt auto and a Mini 14 for plinking around. I have been thinking of getting the Storm .45 cal but the Mini 14 Tactical looks good. Any suggestions for a good carbine? As much as I would love an M-14 or M-1, I do not want to spend the money for a new one.
> 
> DBII



There are some very good American made Kalashnikov reproductions out there that are inexpensive but much more accurate then the Com bloc arms.


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## Ivan1GFP (Apr 25, 2009)

Hi Drgondog,
Thanks for the compliment. Regarding 1 MOA rifles, M1, M1A, AR-15 can be tuned rather easily, but I really don't know any methods for SKS, AK, FAL, HK, Mauser 98, and the like. That doesn't mean that I own these rifles, but if one should come along at a good price legally, I would not turn it down even if the gun isn't expected to shoot MOA or better.

With M14 / M1A types, I don't know that I would spend the effort to square off the bolt face. Besides messing with headspace, you also would be changing firing pin portusion. Then again, it isn't much of a change.

Regarding some esoteric aspects of reloading, I really hate the expander balls that are used with typical rifle full length sizers. I bought some Redding S dies along with a couple bushings in the expected range of neck diameters for .308 Winchester in an attempt to full length size the case without the expander ball. I have not had the chance to try them yet. Another method would be an attempt to combine the Lee Collet set with some other method for reducing only the body of the case and a shoulder bump die. When you are using a Dillon 550 to just process rifle cases, there are quite a few possibilities with dies in each station.

- Ivan.


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## drgondog (Apr 26, 2009)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hi Drgondog,
> Thanks for the compliment. Regarding 1 MOA rifles, M1, M1A, AR-15 can be tuned rather easily, but I really don't know any methods for SKS, AK, FAL, HK, Mauser 98, and the like. That doesn't mean that I own these rifles, but if one should come along at a good price legally, I would not turn it down even if the gun isn't expected to shoot MOA or better.
> 
> *I have never had the SKS/AK/FAL so can't comment.
> ...



I may have to break down and get a 550


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## Ivan1GFP (Apr 26, 2009)

I figure some rifles are had for the nostalgia and it doesn't make sense to destroy the collector value by accurizing them. I probably would not carve up the stock on a Nazi marked K.98 or a 1920's M1903 Springfield no matter how horrible the accuracy. I also probably would not rebarrel a Garand if it had a slightly worn WW2 dated barrel.

Regarding the Benchrest folks, Neck sizing with an occasional visit with a shoulder bump die is good enough for them, but that method won't work with a semiauto gun. I remember an old Air Force Colonel at our range who was a benchrest shooter. He was always wondering why I was tweaking a loads for service rifles because from his view, the ammunition and especially the guns were breaking all his accuracy rules. I think he saw enough sub-MOA groups to believe I was actually accomplishing something.

- Ivan.


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## drgondog (Apr 27, 2009)

Ivan1GFP said:


> I figure some rifles are had for the nostalgia and it doesn't make sense to destroy the collector value by accurizing them. I probably would not carve up the stock on a Nazi marked K.98 or a 1920's M1903 Springfield no matter how horrible the accuracy. I also probably would not rebarrel a Garand if it had a slightly worn WW2 dated barrel.
> 
> *I concur but the only battle rifle I have for nostalgia purposes is the M-1 and it is already a shooter with standard military ball and spectacular with Hornady 150's*
> 
> ...



Also agree 100%. I neck size them all and when loading same caliber/different rifle I still do the smoke (now marker) drill on the resizing die to ensure headspace works for me.


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## drgondog (May 2, 2009)

Ivan - here is my reloading/storage set up behind the 'art alcove'

A little cramped but has 2 x 14 gun safes plus storage on rh side with reloading area on left side


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## javlin (May 2, 2009)

Hopefully one day I will get to that point in the new shop I have been working on.I do know th location it will be in the shop have it all planned out for the moment?barring any change of thoughts.Nice layout though


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## fly boy (May 5, 2009)

did anyone hear that there is a shortage on ammo in the U.S?


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## Matt308 (May 5, 2009)

Yep


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## drgondog (May 5, 2009)

Major shortage - Obama is the number one firearm/ammo salesman, ever.

On top of the 'fear factor' he issued instructions to the DoD to cease sales of once fired .308/.223 brass to US citizens and compamies for reloading, ordered the brass ground up and sold to China at pennies on the dollar to what they were worth in US.


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## Torch (May 5, 2009)

That has been changed, Think a couple of North Dakota or Montana Senators jumped all over that and Mr. Obama changed the order.


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## drgondog (May 5, 2009)

Torch said:


> That has been changed, Think a couple of North Dakota or Montana Senators jumped all over that and Mr. Obama changed the order.



Any place to find a reference?


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## Torch (May 5, 2009)

Yeah i'll look when i get a chance, been on the 1911 and Sig forums also.


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## Torch (May 5, 2009)

snopes.com: DoD Suspension of Brass Cartridge Casing Sales


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## GrauGeist (May 5, 2009)

I also heard that California was going to pass legislation on clip registration for anything with a capacity over 10 rounds...

Perhaps this is a good time to get that Black Arrow .50BMG I've been wanting before it's too late


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## Ivan1GFP (May 11, 2009)

FWIW, I spent about $200 on just minor accessories and Magazines for various guns at the last gun show. Nothing of great consequence, but it is amazing how items at $25 and $30 each start adding up pretty quickly.

Pity those pictures had to go away. I was trying to figure out how to get a picture of my own setup without all the clutter that is in the same room.

- Ivan.


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## drgondog (May 11, 2009)

Ivan1GFP said:


> FWIW, I spent about $200 on just minor accessories and Magazines for various guns at the last gun show. Nothing of great consequence, but it is amazing how items at $25 and $30 each start adding up pretty quickly.
> 
> Pity those pictures had to go away. I was trying to figure out how to get a picture of my own setup without all the clutter that is in the same room.
> 
> - Ivan.



Ivan - one of the forum members objected to the size

Here it is in grayscale


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## fly boy (May 11, 2009)

Damn i asked about the M1A1 he has it's a BB


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## Vassili Zaitzev (May 11, 2009)

fly boy said:


> Damn i asked about the M1A1 he has it's a BB



a M1AI carbine?


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## Ivan1GFP (May 12, 2009)

BB == Barnett Barrel?

- Ivan.


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## Matt308 (May 12, 2009)

BB gun = Pellet gun = Airgun

On behalf of everyone in the United States, I apologize for fly boy's utterly atrocious grammar and spelling. Hopefully the rest of the world will overlook this blight upon America.


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## Ivan1GFP (Jun 17, 2009)

This is a good thread. Perhaps deserving of sticky?

- Ivan.


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## Matt308 (Jun 17, 2009)

Perhaps not given the lack of posts in the last month and a half.

Oh... and fly boy... since Ivan forced me to reread your GD post, this is a belated headbonk just for you and your intrinsic inability to learn.


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## sabrina (Jun 18, 2009)

I have a .45 and .22 that are very dear to me.  Plus I'm very fond of my twelve-inch fighter knife, too.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Jun 18, 2009)

sabrina said:


> I have a .45 and .22 that are very dear to me.  Plus I'm very fond of my twelve-inch fighter knife, too.



Heh, remind me not to cross your path at night.


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## sabrina (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks. I pride myself on being capable. I have a purple belt in tang soo do and want to merge into judo. Love my martial arts...really enjoy boxing, too.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Jun 19, 2009)

sabrina said:


> Thanks. I pride myself on being capable. I have a purple belt in tang soo do and want to merge into judo. Love my martial arts...really enjoy boxing, too.


Good luck with your training.


For me:
Two Smith Wesson 357 Magnum's 
Two S&W 9mm's
Two Uberti 6 shooters 44-40's

I am excellent shot.
I've never missed my foot when I am aiming at it... 


Wheelsup


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## beaupower32 (Jun 19, 2009)

Heres my list:

30-30 winchester 
.30-06 Weatherby Vanguard (my all time favorite gun to deer hunt with)
12 gauge Baretta Shotgun (10 years old and never fired a shot)
2x .22 rifles
1 9mm Ruger
20 gauge shotgun 
.22-250 remington
.243 remington


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## Bucksnort101 (Jun 19, 2009)

OK, sold many of my Rifles in the last year or so as they were just collecting dust, and I shoot more Archery equipement that my rifles nowadays. Currently own the following;

Remington 7400 .30-06
Henry .22 Lever Action (neat little rifle for plinking and small game)
Frankenstein M1 Garand broke down in a multitude of parts that needs to be put back together. Mostly Springfiled parts, but has a Danish made barrell, seems the Danes contracted with Springfield to make barrell for thier remaining M1's. I love shooting those M1's, but being a lefty you have to watch out for that clip when it springs out after the last shot as it tends to land on the top of your head, usually at a slight angle so it stings a little.
.30-30 that I forget the manufaturer on. Uncle gave it to me a few years ago and I need to break it down and refinish the stock, remove some rust and reblue and then have a gunsmith make sure it's still safe to shoot.


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## sabrina (Jun 19, 2009)

Know what you mean...I'm a lefty too.


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## Ivan1GFP (Jun 20, 2009)

Hey Zaitzev, Sabrina,

What is wrong with crossing paths with a very capable woman in the evening? As I see it, a strong and intelligent ally is a good thing.

- Ivan.


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## sabrina (Jun 20, 2009)

Thank you...exactly my opinion. In my view, a strong, feisty woman is a sexy thing.


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## Doughboy (Jun 20, 2009)

My list changed a little...So here is my new list:
MKI. NO.5 Enfield jungle carbine
22.LR(Savage)
20 gauge(Mossberg)


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## Matt308 (Jun 20, 2009)

wheelsup_cavu said:


> Good luck with your training.
> 
> 
> For me:
> ...



I wondered whose pics these were... but this is from a .45ACP. I take it you sold that gun.


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## GrauGeist (Jun 20, 2009)

Unreal...

Wonder if they were able to save that toe, bone looks intact at least.


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## Doughboy (Jun 20, 2009)

Matt308 said:


> I wondered whose pics these were... but this is from a .45ACP. I take it you sold that gun.


Who did that happen to? Whoever it is, they ain't to smart with a gun..


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## Matt308 (Jun 21, 2009)

Accidental discharge one must assume. Living proof that you cannot check the chamber too much and always point the gun towards something you are willing to destroy. Even when it is "unloaded".

This is exactly why some folks hate automatics that you must pull the trigger to disassemble and clean.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Jun 21, 2009)

Matt308 said:


> I wondered whose pics these were... but this is from a .45ACP. I take it you sold that gun.


No 45's here Matt but I always wanted one. Prices kept going up and I finally quit chasing it.
Funny post, I did cringe when I saw what happened to the guy though.



Matt308 said:


> Accidental discharge one must assume. Living proof that you cannot check the chamber too much and always point the gun towards something you are willing to destroy. Even when it is "unloaded".
> 
> This is exactly why some folks hate automatics that you must pull the trigger to disassemble and clean.


I don't know how many times I have heard on the news that someone who shot themselves thought the gun was "unloaded."

This is a perfect example of the unloaded gun theory. 
Nothing gory it just shows how a professional can and does make mistakes.

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eyJM-go7Bk_


Wheelsup


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 21, 2009)

Ouch!!

Anytime man makes a gun safer, God builds a better idiot.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Jun 21, 2009)

vikingBerserker said:


> Ouch!!
> 
> Anytime man makes a gun safer, God builds a better idiot.





Wheelsup


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Jun 22, 2009)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hey Zaitzev, Sabrina,
> 
> What is wrong with crossing paths with a very capable woman in the evening? As I see it, a strong and intelligent ally is a good thing.
> 
> - Ivan.



Nothing wrong with it, I like intelligent women too. I was trying to make a joke, unfortunatley most of them suck.

Edit: As for that accidental discharge, ouch!


----------



## wheelsup_cavu (Jun 22, 2009)

Vassili Zaitzev said:


> Edit: As for that accidental discharge, ouch!


Last guy that had one of those ended up being a father. 


Wheelsup


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## GrauGeist (Jun 23, 2009)

You know, I sat there and thought about those pictures for a minute and realized the dumbass is just sitting there.

If *we* shoot ourselves in the foot, wouldn't it make sense to go to the freakin' ER instead of sitting there and having a photo shoot of our bone and mung that was once called a toe?

Wait...what am I thinking? I suppose if you're lacking the nessecary brains cells that normally prevents one from shooting one's own foot, then I guess it's natural to sit there and show off the stupid hole while the salvagable tissues atrophy...


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## Marcel (Jun 23, 2009)

The safest gun:


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## drgondog (Jun 24, 2009)

Matt308 said:


> Accidental discharge one must assume. Living proof that you cannot check the chamber too much and always point the gun towards something you are willing to destroy. Even when it is "unloaded".
> 
> This is exactly why some folks hate automatics that you must pull the trigger to disassemble and clean.



While I dely love my Wilson 1911-A1 the pics demonstrate why I carry Sig 229 .40 for concealed carry. The decocker removes all anxiety over 'safing' the hammer. Ditto my 229 and 239.


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## Ivan1GFP (Jun 25, 2009)

For concealed carry, I don't chamber a round unless I believe something is happening. To me, the shoot decision would take longer than chambering a round. A M1911 is a bit large IMHO for concealed carry at least for me.

- Ivan.


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## Bucksnort101 (Jun 25, 2009)

Marcel said:


> The safest gun:



Any gun is only as safe as the person holding it Marcel. Unfortunately Hollywood has glamorized gunplay all too much in recent years IMO and have removed the respect for the damage a weapon can cause is mishandled.


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## sabrina (Jun 25, 2009)

Excellent, Bucksnort. I agree with you 100% and wish more people saw this as clearly. Many do not seem to understand that illegalizing a weapon only increases its blackmarket value, leaving weapons in the hands of criminals and not innocents trying to defend themseves. I firmly support gun ownership rights and the right to defend oneself.


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## dandempsey (Jun 26, 2009)

I picked up two revolvers while in the US Air force ('68 - '74), a S&W Model 19 .357 magnum with target sights and Alvarez custom grips, and a woefully inaccurate Charter Arms snub-nosed .38. 

Incidentally, I was in Junior NRA in Morgan Park Military Academy in 4th and 5th grade, and at Basic Training missed expert ribbon by one bullet (58 out of 60, you were allowed to miss one in basic but not two); years later for Security Police Augmentee for Riot Control I had to go to Springfield Illinois and qualify with a Carbine instead of the M-16 and I got 59 out of 60 then - thought I was going to get the expert ribbon - but they let me in on the secret: after basic you can't miss any. (Chuckle.)


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## Doughboy (Jun 26, 2009)

sabrina said:


> Excellent, Bucksnort. I agree with you 100% and wish more people saw this as clearly. Many do not seem to understand that illegalizing a weapon only increases its blackmarket value, leaving weapons in the hands of criminals and not innocents trying to defend themseves. I firmly support gun ownership rights and the right to defend oneself.


I agree with this post 100%.


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## Matt308 (Jun 26, 2009)

And hopefully do most other 'mericans.


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## drgondog (Jun 27, 2009)

Matt308 said:


> And hopefully do most other 'mericans.



Most do - unfortunately they are not represented to same degree in Congress or the White House.


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## Soren (Jun 30, 2009)

I have one question though, how come the US is the country with by far the most gunshot related deaths and accidents in the world? 

In Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France, Holland, Norway and virtually every other European country you hardly ever hear of anyone getting shot, and when someone does it's all over the news because it so seldom happens. Effective gun control is the reason.

Now seeing that the average European doesn't own any firearm then why is it that the Americans want it so much ? Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on confiscating all weapons from the streets, and then when that has been done to a reasonable degree you can start making the gun laws more strict for the ordinary citizen. Less guns out on the street means less unnecessary deaths and lethal accidents. A gun just makes it too easy to hurt another person and get away with it. 

Guns should be kept on the range and not out on the streets or in the home (I admit I have guns in my home myself). It's ok that people own guns IMO, be it even an assault rifle, I don't care, but they should be on the range only. There should be gun clubs which store your guns for you, then you can come and use them on the range when you feel like it. But they can't leave the range. The only firearm you may have in your home would be your hunting rifle or shotgun, no pistols, machine guns or assault rifles. It would be much much better this way.


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## fritzie 101 (Jun 30, 2009)

this is my Springfield Champion


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## Amsel (Jun 30, 2009)

Soren, gun control is all part of people control. We have laws against criminals having guns but obviously criminals do not abide by the law. Having my best arms locked up at a club defeats much of the purpose of even having them and makes them easier for an illegal regime to confiscate them. My arms are not for recreation but for protecting my family, fellow citizens, our property, to make meat, and last but not certainly least to oppose anyone who would threaten our civil rights as free men.


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## Doughboy (Jun 30, 2009)

Soren said:


> I have one question though, how come the US is the country with by far the most gunshot related deaths and accidents in the world?
> 
> In Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France, Holland, Norway and virtually every other European country you hardly ever hear of anyone getting shot, and when someone does it's all over the news because it so seldom happens. Effective gun control is the reason.
> 
> ...


What is to stop the criminals from breaking into the gun clubs and getting the guns anyway? and once the criminals get the guns, how do we protect ourselves?


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## Soren (Jun 30, 2009)

Doughboy said:


> What is to stop the criminals from breaking into the gun clubs and getting the guns anyway? and once the criminals get the guns, how do we protect ourselves?



S E C U R I T Y


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## Doughboy (Jun 30, 2009)

Soren said:


> S E C U R I T Y


Why do I want a gun if I can't pull it out and do something with it? What kind of manure are you spreading.


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## Amsel (Jun 30, 2009)

L I B E R T Y

Don't worry under our present regime we will be under better goverment control soon enough.


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## Soren (Jun 30, 2009)

Amsel said:


> Soren, gun control is all part of people control. We have laws against criminals having guns but obviously criminals do not abide by the law. Having my best arms locked up at a club defeats much of the purpose of even having them and makes them easier for an illegal regime to confiscate them. My arms are not for recreation but for protecting my family, fellow citizens, our property, to make meat, and last but not certainly least to oppose anyone who would threaten our civil rights as free men.



Illegal regime ? Why is it that the Americans are so afraid of their own government ?

If governments were so evil then how come things are they way they are in europe. Why is it we don't run around shooting each other in Europe ? Are we generally just smarter than the Americans ? No I don't think so. Gun control is the answer.

I understand your reasons for having a gun Amsel, if I lived in the states I'd also be sure to have one myself. Why ? Because everyone else has! And that's the problem. The guns need to be removed from the streets alltogether. And it isn't impossible, it's being enforced in Europe right now. But it's going to prove a huge task for the US at this point because of all the guns in circulation on the street at this point, but if you don't try then it's never gonna get any better.

Let me ask you this Amsel, which world do you like best: The one were you absolutely NEED a gun to keep your family safe? Or the one where you don't NEED a gun to keep your family safe?

I know which one I'd choose.

The US government ought to strive at removing all guns from the streets, even if it means by using extreme methods to do so. Cause only when the guns are largely gone will the situation get any better. And then when it has been achieved, maybe in a period of 5 years or more, then you could restrict all access to firearms to gun clubs.


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## Doughboy (Jun 30, 2009)

Soren said:


> Illegal regime ? Why is it that the Americans are so afraid of their own government ?
> 
> If governments were so evil then how come things are they way they are in europe. Why is it we don't run around shooting each other in Europe ? Are we generally just smarter than the Americans ? No I don't think so. Gun control is the answer.
> 
> ...


They do run around shooting people in Europe...The other world you speak of, is a fantasy world.


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## Soren (Jun 30, 2009)

Doughboy said:


> They do run around shooting people in Europe...The other world you speak of, is a fantasy world.



Nope sorry but we dont, and I know cause I live there 

Roughly 30,000 Americans loose their life to gunshot wounds every year, and the wounded figure is even higher. Now guess how high the figure is for the entire European continent?


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## Doughboy (Jun 30, 2009)

"Nope sorry but we dont, and I know cause I live there "

Maybe you should look at this.http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/02/world/europe/02iht-02briefsmanarrestedibrf.19045432.html


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## Amsel (Jun 30, 2009)

Soren said:


> Illegal regime ? Why is it that the Americans are so afraid of their own government ?
> *If the world history of the last one hundred years is not reason enough to distrust goverment then I really don't know how to explain it to you.*
> If governments were so evil then how come things are they way they are in europe. Why is it we don't run around shooting each other in Europe ? Are we generally just smarter than the Americans ? No I don't think so. Gun control is the answer.
> *A mere 69 years ago in Europe millions upon millions went around shooting each other, even rounding up their fellow citizens and liquidating them. I bet the Jewish people would have loved to make a stand, as well as the million upon millions of other people.*
> ...



something to think about.


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## Doughboy (Jun 30, 2009)

Doughboy said:


> "Nope sorry but we dont, and I know cause I live there "
> 
> Maybe you should look at this.http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/02/world/europe/02iht-02briefsmanarrestedibrf.19045432.html


If Europe is so great, how come they started two world wars? BTW, more shootings.BBC NEWS | Europe | History of school shootings


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## Soren (Jun 30, 2009)

Doughboy said:


> "Nope sorry but we dont, and I know cause I live there "
> 
> Maybe you should look at this.http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/02/world/europe/02iht-02briefsmanarrestedibrf.19045432.html



Doughboy that is one incident, compare that to the millions of incidents in the states each year. 100 people die each day in the states from gunshot wounds, in Denmark it is 1 a year!


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## Soren (Jun 30, 2009)

World Wars have nothing to do with the ordinary citizen bearing arms. Also you should be careful talking about wars as the US has pretty much got that covered on its own.


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## Amsel (Jun 30, 2009)

Soren said:


> World Wars have nothing to do with the ordinary citizen bearing arms. Also you should be careful talking about wars as the US has pretty much got that covered on its own.



Are you talking about our defensive war against radical islam after nearly three thousand of our countrymen were anhilated, and our financial and military centers attacked? Or our protracted war against the most horrific regime in history, the Soviets?

You asked why Americans fear goverments, I might ask why people don't fear goverments, especially looking back at the last one hundred years.


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## Butters (Jun 30, 2009)

Well, you can thank Hollywood for making you a bit safer from the 'bad guys'...

Have you noticed that thugs always brandish their pistols in the oh-so-cool 'gangsta' fashion when they're planning on cappin' some mo'fo's azz ? Sideways and up over their shoulders...I'd only be worried if they were NOT aiming at me 

JL


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## Torch (Jun 30, 2009)

Hey look what gun control ultimately created in Europe is a redesigned kitchen knife, what blunt needles next?, no combs with pointy teeth, can't do yardwork with blunt pitch forks and damn forks can poke an eye out oh and you can hurt somebody with sharp toothpicks and hey cricket (bats) can give somebody a headache,need to ban those, and oh the granny club has been disbarred because knitting needles are now banned and ouch you can get poked with a lead pencil and die from lead poisoning. Point is how much govt do you want interfering with your lives. There are so many gun laws here that if they were inforced it would be refreshing. Not knocking the police here but it's got to be close to 90% of police respond after the crime has been done. So the scenario is do I protect myself and family or do I let the robbery,rape,murder etc continue and wait for the police to show up after the deed is done. I know what I'm going to do...


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## Doughboy (Jun 30, 2009)

Torch said:


> Hey look what gun control ultimately created in Europe is a redesigned kitchen knife, what blunt needles next?, no combs with pointy teeth, can't do yardwork with blunt pitch forks and damn forks can poke an eye out oh and you can hurt somebody with sharp toothpicks and hey cricket (bats) can give somebody a headache,need to ban those, and oh the granny club has been disbarred because knitting needles are now banned and ouch you can get poked with a lead pencil and die from lead poisoning. Point is how much govt do you want interfering with your lives. There are so many gun laws here that if they were inforced it would be refreshing. Not knocking the police here but it's got to be close to 90% of police respond after the crime has been done. So the scenario is do I protect myself and family or do I let the robbery,rape,murder etc continue and wait for the police to show up after the deed is done. I know what I'm going to do...


Well said, Torch.


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## Matt308 (Jun 30, 2009)

Guys... this is becoming a political thread and not a thread of the guns we own. If you don't redirect the posts, we will either give folks some necessary time off from the forum to post your political rantings elsewhere or we will close the thread. We will start with the former and migrate to the latter. We cannot tolerate a few hijacking threads and defaulting to closing them first.

You have been warned.


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## Soren (Jun 30, 2009)

In the US: 100 people die each day from gunshot wounds, and 300 more get wounded.
In Europe: roughly 5 people die each day from gunshot wounds, and 15 get wounded.

Now what's the difference between Europe America which creates this difference ?

EDIT: Sorry didnt see your post Matt, posted mine before I saw yours.


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## Doughboy (Jun 30, 2009)

Matt308 said:


> Guys... this is becoming a political thread and not a thread of the guns we own. If you don't redirect the posts, we will either give folks some necessary time off from the forum to post your political rantings elsewhere or we will close the thread. We will start with the former and migrate to the latter. We cannot tolerate a few hijacking threads and defaulting to closing them first.
> 
> You have been warned.


I will stop posting...and if you want to delete my posts.


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## Amsel (Jun 30, 2009)

Soren said:


> In the US: 100 people die each day from gunshot wounds, and 300 more get wounded.
> In Europe: roughly 5 people die each day from gunshot wounds, and 15 get wounded.
> 
> Now what's the difference between Europe America which creates this difference ?
> ...


Americans are better shots?


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## Matt308 (Jun 30, 2009)

Okay Soren. I'll reinstate you. Amsel you were next. Knock it off guys.


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## Soren (Jun 30, 2009)

Damn! That was a close one! Phew!


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## Torch (Jun 30, 2009)

Amsel that was too funny........Ok on the political stuff, sorry...........


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## ccheese (Jun 30, 2009)

OK, you guys. You're hijacking MY thread ! Enougth already. I started this thread so guys could post pic's of their
private arsenal..... not to get into a debate about what country allows or does not allow private ownership of weapons,
or who's the best shot. If you don't wanna show a pic of your weaponry, that's up to you, but keep the politics out of
it. Matt has warned some of you and I will add to that warning.

Charles


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## Amsel (Jun 30, 2009)

Honestly was just trying to lighten the mood with the "best shot" quip. It was a joke.


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## Bucksnort101 (Jun 30, 2009)

Forgot about my .50 Cal ThompsonIn-Line Muzzleloader, that thing make big old holes in targets Someday I'm going to build a Lefty Hawken Muzzleloader, with a nice Curly Walnut stock.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 30, 2009)

I am going to add one last thing to Charles post...

1. This is not the place for political discussion. You want to discuss politics, go someplace else!!!!
2. Next person that says some bullshit remark about the US, is banned! This is the only warning!
3. Next person that says some bullshit remark about Europe, is banned! This is the only warning?

Why the bans? Because the Europeans don't know what they are talking about in regards to the US, and likewise the people from the US don't know **** about Europe! It ends up becoming a flame war with ignorant comments made by ignorant people who don't know what they are talking about! 

Now don't hijack Charles thread again, or I will really get pissed!


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## GrauGeist (Jun 30, 2009)

Bucksnort101 said:


> Forgot about my .50 Cal ThompsonIn-Line Muzzleloader, that thing make big old holes in targets Someday I'm going to build a Lefty Hawken Muzzleloader, with a nice Curly Walnut stock.


Out of curiousity, how do you like the black powder rifles, especially the vintage style?

I've owned and used BP wheelguns for years, but never had the opportunity to try a rifle/smoothbore.


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## Marcel (Jun 30, 2009)

Bucksnort101 said:


> Any gun is only as safe as the person holding it Marcel. Unfortunately Hollywood has glamorized gunplay all too much in recent years IMO and have removed the respect for the damage a weapon can cause is mishandled.



 I still have to hear about the first person being shot by a water pistol. You'll have to give me that 
Anyway, it's the only gun I have, eh well, my son of 4 years has


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## fritzie 101 (Jun 30, 2009)

They're fun but messy.


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## Amsel (Jun 30, 2009)

GrauGeist said:


> Out of curiousity, how do you like the black powder rifles, especially the vintage style?
> 
> I've owned and used BP wheelguns for years, but never had the opportunity to try a rifle/smoothbore.



I have a good Pennsylvania or Kentucky rifle on my wishlist. I love to shoot blackpowder especially the flintlocks. Hell, I'd settle for a Brown Bess or a Charleville musket. I prefer to shoot flintlocks over any other rifle for recreation.


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## Bucksnort101 (Jun 30, 2009)

Don't own a "Vintage" style Blackpowder rifle, yet. Only thing I have is a modern In-Line Muzzleloader using modern powder that burns cleaner and uses a shotgun shell primer for ignition.
Vintage stuff with actual blakc powder requires a bit more work after a shot, and you need to clean that black powder out pretty quickly as it is corrosive. Got to keep you powder dry and the Flintlocks and Caplocks are more prone to mis-fires due to the ignition system.
Hoping to make up a old style black powder rifle for squirrel hunting, maybe a .32 Cal.
I like shooting them, may sell the Centerfire rifle and give up hunting with them and concentrate on hunting with my Lonbow and Muzzleloader.


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## sabrina (Jun 30, 2009)

Whoa...lot of stuff cropped up here since I looked the other day. 

For a swift change back onto the subject--look at this beautiful Heckler Koch. Is this not the sexiest auto you've ever seen?

Guay Guay UMG on Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## Torch (Jun 30, 2009)

i actually have a GSG5 .22lr that is an almost exact copy of the h&k mp5, some components actually swap out. These things are a blast to shoot and pretty damn accurate to boot.


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## sabrina (Jun 30, 2009)

Love it...I'll take one of these over a man almost any day... he he he. 

(Sort of joking, sort of not)


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## Torch (Jun 30, 2009)

True, carries more rounds and reloads faster....


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## sabrina (Jun 30, 2009)




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## fritzie 101 (Jun 30, 2009)

My friend bought one and after shooting it I have been lusting for one ever since. 

In answer to the main ? I also have an XD45,an M4, a Remington 870 a Sig Sauer P228 in addition to the Springfield I posted earlier on this thread. I have also owned 3 Walther P-38s, Parabellum P08 (Luger) several 1911 style pistols hj- cap and standard capacity,Two Browning HI -Powers,5 KAR98Ks( not all at once) 3 M1As also not all at once, started with polytech M-14S and traded up to a loaded M-1A w/stainless national match barrel and NM trigger group.1 M1 Garand, 2 inland /GM M-1 carbines 4 AR -15s( my current M4 is my favorite),AKs and numerous other revolvers,semi auto pistols ,shotguns and rifles. And that's also how i ran up $16,000, in credit card debt in my younger years.And also why my current gun collection is a mere shadow of it's former glory.( Small picture is mp5 big one is gsg-5 by the way I've shot both both were very fun but full auto rocks)


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## Butters (Jun 30, 2009)

My only experience with black powder was during my stint on the 'Scarlet Letter'movie. The combat training and scenes involved muzzle-loading matchlock muskets (and also a type that broke down like a single-shot shotgun, firing .410 black powder blanks)

I remember how incredibly smoky it became when 35-40 fire all at once. But what I really remember is the instructor repeatedly saying, "I cannot stress strongly enough that you ABSOLUTELY MAKE SURE TO REMOVE THE RAMROD before firing the weapon!"...

Guns don't kill in period piece movies, ramrods do

JL


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## Bucksnort101 (Jul 1, 2009)

HK's are cool, but these are more my stlye.


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## Amsel (Jul 1, 2009)

Nice Hawkin. It looks like a left-hander.


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## Bucksnort101 (Jul 1, 2009)

That Hawken is exacly what I want to build. I found the picture while doing a search. Custom job with gold inlays. I could do without the gold. Someday I'll put one together. 
Could be a lefty or the pics got messed up and flip-flopped reverse negative type thingy? Not sure that can happen anymore with the advent of digital cameras. Used to see it a lot with the old school cameras.


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## Amsel (Jul 1, 2009)

Ya, I can't tell if the picture is flipped or not. That sounds like a great build though. It even gives me some motivation to pursue a project like that. My grandpa builds rifles, and it kills me that I didn't bother him to show me some of his skills, it would have been a great way to know him better as well as learn a great skill. He is nearing 90 and the chance has passed. I am going to miss the "greatest generation" and am kind of worried about the skills lost to us in their passing to the afterlife.


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## Marcel (Jul 1, 2009)

No that's a piece of art. I don't have much with rifles, but this Hawken is a beauty.
It is not flipped, if you look closely I believe you'll see the word "calibre" and "rifle" in the right orientation:


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## Bucksnort101 (Jul 1, 2009)

Sweet, it's a lefty. Hard to find lefty Traditional Muzzleloader stuff. I'm sure this is way out of my price range, but am going to bookmark his web-site for further research. Looks like I know what my piggie bank moey is being spent on


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## Torch (Jul 1, 2009)

Love the grain of the wood on that piece...


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## Bucksnort101 (Jul 1, 2009)

Stained Curly Maple, you gotta love it.


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## Doughboy (Jul 1, 2009)

*Very nice* Hawken.


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## dandempsey (Jul 6, 2009)

dandempsey said:


> I picked up two revolvers while in the US Air force ('68 - '74), a S&W Model 19 .357 magnum with target sights and Alvarez custom grips, and a woefully inaccurate Charter Arms snub-nosed .38. ...



Besides the two revolvers above, I used to have a .300 Win Magnum rifle, while in the USAF at Chanute ATC base but we ran short on money and I thought I'd pawn it for just a little while, and when I went back to pick it up, found out a young lad had a nice Christmas present.


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## Bucksnort101 (Jul 6, 2009)

Hey, I've been conversing with the guy that built that Hawken Rifle. Seems if was made from a kit he purchased from a Balck Powder Rifle supply store about 30 miles form my house! I ran up there this past weekend and picked up a catalog and looked around. Some nice Rifles in that store. Can't afford the whole kit right now, but it can be bought in bits and pieces a little at a time. Fancy Curly Maple stock is $250 alone though, ouch.


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## sabrina (Jul 6, 2009)

Bucksnort101 said:


> Sweet, it's a lefty. Hard to find lefty Traditional Muzzleloader stuff. I'm sure this is way out of my price range, but am going to bookmark his web-site for further research. Looks like I know what my piggie bank moey is being spent on




Greetings, fellow lefty.


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## Bucksnort101 (Jul 6, 2009)

sabrina said:


> Greetings, fellow lefty.



Yep, us lefties got to stuck together. Actually lefties outnumber the righties in my family. Mom and Sister are also left handed as are most of my cousins on my mothers side fo the family.
It's a curse and a blessing, on one hand it's hard to use some things made for righties,but on the other my righty friends never ask to borrow my left handed stuff


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## ToughOmbre (Jul 6, 2009)

Speaking of the guns we own (or would like to own), can any member refer a reputable gun dealer, online website or New Jersey location, that would sell the M1 Garand, Thompson, Carbine, etc.? I've got a number of sites bookmarked, just looking for someone who has had some first hand experience dealing with the various dealers.

I'm looking to expand my militaria collection to include US firearms from WW II. A good recommendation would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

TO


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## Bucksnort101 (Jul 6, 2009)

TO, have you checked out the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) for M1's? They have certain criteria you have to meet before you can purchase a weapon from them. These can vary in price range and quality, and may need some work (cleaning mostly) to make them shooters. Not sure what the wait time is on a rifle from them anymore, used to be several months to a year, but I think they have shortened that time frame a little. This is the official, government santioned place to get a M1.
CMP Home
Check out Fulton Armory on-line, I've bought Garand parts form him and he seems very reputable.
Also check out Scott Duff at Scott Duff Publications Historic Martial Arms: M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M1903, Krag, M1911A1 In my Garand/Carbine collecting days I bought a few rifles from him and all were as he described on his web-site. I think he can only send to a gun dealer or C R Lisc holder. I think he is in Pennsyvania?
You have to keep a close eye on his web-site and see when he posts newly available stuff as he usually puts new stuff up there in a lump basis and stuff seemed to move pretty fast.

I used to know a couple other places, but they escape my memory right now. I think I purchased a Garand parts kit from this web-site several years ago, www.m1garandrifle.com/ but I can't open the web-site from work to verify it's the same guy. I'll check from home later to verify. If so, he seemed be pretty reputable.

I think your best bet is the CMP if you don't mind waiting, and putting in a little elbow grease (half the fun IMO). And second I'd try Scott Duff. All depends on what you're looking for.


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## Matt308 (Jul 6, 2009)

ToughOmbre said:


> Speaking of the guns we own (or would like to own), can any member refer a reputable gun dealer, online website or New Jersey location, that would sell the M1 Garand, Thompson, Carbine, etc.? I've got a number of sites bookmarked, just looking for someone who has had some first hand experience dealing with the various dealers.
> 
> I'm looking to expand my militaria collection to include US firearms from WW II. A good recommendation would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> ...



gunboards.com total online service for the gun owner and collector


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## ToughOmbre (Jul 6, 2009)

Buck and Matt,

Thanks for the information. Much appreciated. Buck, I'm in the process of getting my paperwork in order for CMP. Hopefully the wait has shortened a bit.

Thanks again guys,

TO


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## Bucksnort101 (Jul 6, 2009)

Great, had a couple of thier rifles and they were in pretty decent shape. Well worn, but could be shot. A couple years ago I thought they were down to a 4 months or so backlog. Have not checked recently.
I got a brand new, still in Cosmoline Garand bolt form Fulton Armory several years ago and a parts kit from some other place which had a nice Danish made Barrel that was pretty much new. Got the receiver from the CMP. Someday when I have the spare cash I'm going to send it all to a gut to have re-parkerized and have the barrel assembled to the Receiver., I think his company is Deans Gun Repair, does a lot of Garand refinishing if you need any work done. 
Good shooting, let me know if you need any spare Garand clips, I've got a bunch fo them just collecting dust and will never have use for the amount I have.
If you are going to shoot the M! Garand be careful what type of ammo you put through them. No high pressue stuff. Guy from one of the places just told me to stick with Federal Ammo, the inexpensive (if you want to call it that) 150 grain bullet stuff. Garands were not known for shooting high pressure ammo, can cause bad things to happen.
Good luck, hope you draw a nice one from CMP.


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## Amsel (Jul 6, 2009)

You can also get involved in the RWVA (Revolutionary War Veterans Association) Appleseed Project to qualify for the CMP Garands. It is a great program that my dad and grandad went to and both thought it was great. They are both Marine vets from the PTO and Vietnam. My grandad used his .22 to qualify but my dad used his M1A and found out that was not the best idea because the amount of shooting to qualify.Sore cheek! 

Here's a couple of links you might be interested in.

The Appleseed Project

Fred's M14 Stocks


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## ToughOmbre (Jul 6, 2009)

Thanks again Buck,

Hopefully the backlog isn't too long. Hey, I'm 60! 

Amsel,

Thanks for the info, I'll check it out.

All good information guys!

TO


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## Ivan1GFP (Jul 15, 2009)

Look for the CMP for a carbine or M1 Garand.
Civilian Marksmanship Program - Usta be Director of Civilian Marksmanship - Department of the Army.

- Ivan


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## DAVIDICUS (Aug 4, 2009)

MY newest acquisition:

NOVESKE N4 Light Recce


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## Torch (Aug 4, 2009)

very nice......


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 16, 2009)

Nice armory guys, very nice. some shot sof my Bersa Thunder 9x19mm.
Sadly this pistol hasnt been so succesful as its minor sister the .380 in the USA:


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## Bucksnort101 (Aug 17, 2009)

Nice handgun, but that second picture goes against every bit of instruction and training I've ever been through! Never point a weapon at anything you don't intent to shoot, especially yourself. Even if you "think" it is unloaded.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Aug 17, 2009)

Stuff happens !!


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj4yUpR1PB0_

Picture two was a concern to me too.


Wheels


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 17, 2009)

Thanks for the advice but dont worry I dont want to shoot myself. 



> Stuff happens !!
> 
> YouTube - DEA Agent Shoots Himself
> 
> Picture two was a concern to me too.



Why he was teaching with a loaded gun ?. Not very smart. Tough guy aniway.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Aug 18, 2009)

I don't know why he was teaching with a loaded gun.
I would have been very angry if one of my kids had been in the classroom that day.


Wheels


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## Bucksnort101 (Aug 18, 2009)

CharlesBronson said:


> Thanks for the advice but dont worry I dont want to shoot myself. /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> CB's famous last words It's not a matter of wanting to shoot yourself, it's a matter of accidently shooting ones self with a gun that you think is unloaded. Just not a safe practice. Don't mean to harp on it, but I hate to see something like that, plus you post too many lovelies in the Breaking News thread to loose you in an accident


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 18, 2009)

My Bersa was unloaded actually but i guess at this stage it doesnt matter anymore.


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## drgondog (Aug 21, 2009)

Bucksnort101 said:


> CharlesBronson said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the advice but dont worry I dont want to shoot myself. /QUOTE]
> ...


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## RabidAlien (Aug 21, 2009)

Dang, i got chills with that second pic....and its only a photo!


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## Bucksnort101 (Aug 21, 2009)

drgondog said:


> Bucksnort101 said:
> 
> 
> > For purposes of handling safety, there is no such thing as an unloaded firearm..
> ...


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## CharlesBronson (Aug 21, 2009)

Talking about gun accident check this:


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh1lyMyejpI_


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## Amsel (Aug 22, 2009)

I personally am much more concerned with the millions of idiots that clog our roads every day. Getting home from work without getting hurt is a real nailbiter. People don't take driving very seriously.


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## DAVIDICUS (Oct 29, 2009)

Newest acquisition.

Umarex / Colt M4 OPS in .22lr (Yes, I said .22lr. The magazine holds 30 rounds)


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## Torch (Oct 29, 2009)

I like it, I'm trying to get a look at the S&W version, also the Sig 522 before I plunk the $s down.


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## DAVIDICUS (Oct 29, 2009)

I haven't fire it yet but I am reading that a lot of people are having problems and everyone says to steer clear from Remington ammo. 

I paid $600 for mine. I have heard that the Smith is better and costs less. I haven't heard anything about the Sig.


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## sabrina (Nov 2, 2009)

Davidicus:

SWEET!!! I love it. So far I only own a .45 (and a 12-in. fighting knife I adore, but this is a gun forum!)


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## RabidAlien (Nov 2, 2009)

<off topic>

Hey, Sabrina! Long time no see! Welcome back!

</off topic>


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## GrauGeist (Nov 2, 2009)

I sure miss my Colt 1911A1, but replacing it is out of the question, since California has a "drop test" rule, and the Colt doesn't pass it. 

Great to see you back, Sabrina!


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## sabrina (Nov 3, 2009)

Thanks guys! Nice to be back. Had to take care of a few things.


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## Bucksnort101 (Nov 3, 2009)

GrauGeist said:


> I sure miss my Colt 1911A1, but replacing it is out of the question, since California has a "drop test" rule, and the Colt doesn't pass it.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Yet another reason I will never live in the Peoples Republic of California! No offense, but gun that law is just the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I'd bet more people are injured in California by Pneumatic nail guns than those that drop thier M1911's. Double saftey on both should prevent them from going off anyway. Plus the fact that a .45ACP bullet is so slow you should be able to jump out of the way before it hits you anyway
> Have owned several 1911's of various models over the years, would like another someday.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 3, 2009)

Bucksnort101 said:


> Yet another reason I will never live in the Peoples Republic of California! No offense, but gun that law is just the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I'd bet more people are injured in California by Pneumatic nail guns than those that drop thier M1911's. Double saftey on both should prevent them from going off anyway. Plus the fact that a .45ACP bullet is so slow you should be able to jump out of the way before it hits you anyway
> Have owned several 1911's of various models over the years, would like another someday.


Yeah, I'm a native Californian, and over my lifetime, I've watched the steady decline of this state from the world's 6th economic power to a ing 'hole held hostage by by idiots and agendas...

I can honestly say that in my entire life, I have dropped a weapon only once (Marlin .444), and it landed on it's side - I won't EVEN go into the a**-chewin' I earned as a result of this, but let's just say that this is something a person shouldn't do in the presence of a former Marine and two retired Navy Chiefs.

Anyway, the chances of a 1911 falling on it's hammer with a round in the chamber is some pretty high odds and I think that this is just another "phobia" regarding firearms that ends up written into legislation.


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## wheelsup_cavu (Nov 6, 2009)

GrauGeist said:


> I can honestly say that in my entire life, I have dropped a weapon only once (Marlin .444), and it landed on it's side - I won't EVEN go into the a**-chewin' I earned as a result of this, but let's just say that this is something a person shouldn't do in the presence of a former Marine and two retired Navy Chiefs.


No such Person. 


Wheels


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## GrauGeist (Nov 6, 2009)

wheelsup_cavu said:


> No such Person.
> 
> 
> Wheels


LOL

Yeah, I use the term "former" instead of "ex"...

The only time I would use the term ex-marine is if they were bounced out for whatever reason.

Even though my step-dad is a former Marine (Korean War vet, Chosin survivor), he's still a marine!


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## wheelsup_cavu (Nov 7, 2009)

GrauGeist said:


> LOL
> 
> Yeah, I use the term "former" instead of "ex"...
> 
> ...



We have more in common than you know.
My dad served in the Corps in 62-63.
He didn't serve overseas but he had the chance.
He was thinking about volunteering to be an advisor in Vietnam. (Southeast Asia at the time) 
When they told him he carried a weapon as an advisor but would be court-martialed if he was caught with bullets he decided against volunteering.


Wheels


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## ToughOmbre (Nov 11, 2009)

Bought a Springfield Armory M1 Garand today. Gotta wait till tomorrow to pick it up (Veterans Day Holiday, couldn't do the background check).

Very excited! Will post pics when I get it in my hand.

TO


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## Bucksnort101 (Nov 11, 2009)

ToughOmbre said:


> Bought a Springfield Armory M1 Garand today. Gotta wait till tomorrow to pick it up (Veterans Day Holiday, couldn't do the background check).
> 
> Very excited! Will post pics when I get it in my hand.
> 
> TO



Very Cool TO, can't wait to see the pics. Did you buy the reproduction M1 that Springfield now makes or did you buy a surplus rifle?
If you're a lefty shooter watch out for that ammo clip after the last round goes off. That baby spings up out of the rifle and clunks a left handed shooter right on the top of the head when it comes down from it's freefall. I know, it's happened to me a couple times, hurts just a little bit

One of these days I'll get my M1 barrel screwed onto the receiver I picked up years back and put together a Garand as well. Fun rifle to shoot.

One other work of caution, don't shoot just any rifle ammo through that M1. They will not hold up to high pressure loads. I was told to either shoot surplus ball .30 cal ammo, or Federal Brand 150 grain ammo (the stuff in the Silver and Blue box). There was another ammo manufacturer a few years back that made ammo specifically for the M1, M1903, etc... But the name escapes me right now. 
Look over on the CMP's web-site, I think they have information posted on safe ammo. Thankfully I've got several ammo can of surplus ball just collecting dust until my M1 is shootable again.


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## ToughOmbre (Nov 11, 2009)

Bucksnort101 said:


> Very Cool TO, can't wait to see the pics. Did you buy the reproduction M1 that Springfield now makes or did you buy a surplus rifle?
> If you're a lefty shooter watch out for that ammo clip after the last round goes off. That baby spings up out of the rifle and clunks a left handed shooter right on the top of the head when it comes down from it's freefall. I know, it's happened to me a couple times, hurts just a little bit
> 
> One of these days I'll get my M1 barrel screwed onto the receiver I picked up years back and put together a Garand as well. Fun rifle to shoot.
> ...



Thanks Buck. Bought an original that has been thoroughly rebuilt/reconditioned. Brand new chrome lined Criterion barrel, new wood. Looks like it just came off the assembly line. Complete with instruction manual, 10 clips and a non-GI sling. 1 year warranty on parts and labor.

Thanks for for the heads up on ammo. Much appreciated. 

Can't wait to shoot!

BTW, I'm a right handed. 

TO


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## Bucksnort101 (Nov 11, 2009)

Cool. Let me know if you need more clips, I've got a few hundred at home and need to get rid of some. You can have a bunch. I think I've got a couple of the M1 Garand booklets that the CMP sends out with thier rifles too. Shows complete dissasembly and other stuff. P.M. me your address if you want some of that stuff.


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## ToughOmbre (Nov 12, 2009)

My M1 Garand. I may sleep with it tonight! 

TO


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## Screaming Eagle (Nov 12, 2009)

She's pretty!


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## GrauGeist (Nov 12, 2009)

LMAO @ _"I may sleep with it tonight!"_

Dang, that's one good looking rifle!


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## MacArther (Nov 13, 2009)

Soooooo beautiful....Makes me wanna save up more money to get either a M1, or a M1 Carbine....


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## Bucksnort101 (Nov 13, 2009)

Very nice TO, I love the M1 Garand. This make me want to get mine put back together and shooting again.
As I mentioned int he P.M. I sent you, be careful what you feed the M1 for Ammo, and for anyone else considering buying one. The M1 cannot handle the high pressure loads of most modern day ammunition. Guys I have spoken with said to just shoot the Federal Brand Ammo that comes in the Blue and Silver Boxes, 150 Grain variety. 
I also just looked over a couple shooting magazines I had yesterday and seems Hornady is now making a match grade ammunition for the M1. Called something like Hornade Garand Match or something like that. Most likely a little pricey.
I do beleive PMC and American Eagle make a general Garand grade ammo as well.
Look in the Shotgun News magazine for surplus ammo too, but be watchful as some of the foreign made stuff has corrosive primers. Cabelas and Sportsmans Guide usually have surplus .30 cal ammo on had at times as well. Most bullets on surplus stuff have steel bullet wrapped in copper which I've read may wear your barrel down faster, while others say it doesn't?
Good luck, have fun, and get us some pics at the range and of you first Bullseye


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## Matt308 (Nov 13, 2009)

She is a beauty. No doubt about it.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Nov 13, 2009)

Awesome M1 TO!


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## javlin (Nov 13, 2009)

Very nice looking Rifle TO and Bucks right on the ammo.The most I go on my reloads is a 165g but mostly it is the 150g anymore.I believe the sniper round round is 173g but I still do not know if I go that much for an M1.Have Fun Kevin


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## Matt308 (Nov 14, 2009)

javlin said:


> I still do not know if I go that much for an M1.Have Fun Kevin



Blaspheme. Somewhere in the Moderator control panel is a means for me to throw fiberglass in your underwear. I just need to find it.


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Nov 14, 2009)

Ya know, in the back of my mind, I want to buy a handgun when I move out of my own.


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## javlin (Nov 14, 2009)

Only thing Matt I might like fiberglass in my underwear


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## GrauGeist (Nov 14, 2009)

javlin said:


> Only thing Matt I might like fiberglass in my underwear


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## Bucksnort101 (Nov 14, 2009)

javlin said:


> Only thing Matt I might like fiberglass in my underwear



Must be a Baseball player? Itch, Itch, Scratch, Scratch

Went up to the local Cabelas Sporting Good Store today and went into the Gun Vault, the place where they keep all the Vintage and high priced weapons. There was the Winchester 94 Lever action i was looking for. Build in 1957, collectors look for Winchesters Built before 1964. Gun was in excellent shape , only it was not the caliber I wanted and was priced beyond what I can afford right now. I'll keep looking. Want a .32-20, but they appear to be hard to find, or I'm mistaken and they didn't make them in that Cal? Off to peruse the Winchester books I picked up at the Library today and do a little research.


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## drgondog (Nov 15, 2009)

javlin said:


> Only thing Matt I might like fiberglass in my underwear



that would explain not liking the Garand


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## javlin (Nov 15, 2009)

drgondog said:


> that would explain not liking the Garand



Not following that one Dragon??I have a 56 Springfield with under a 1000 rds ever run through it.I have had offers way more than what I paid for it by some more knowledgable than I for sure.The rifle I really regrett cutting loose was my BM-59.The only piece that was not Beretta on it was the barrel it was a Springfield.


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## Matt308 (Nov 15, 2009)

Ooooo... man you gave that up? Really? What did you get in return?

Lots of money, a couple of female Brazilian beach volleyball players and a huge pension I hope. She's a beaut.


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## javlin (Nov 16, 2009)

What I paid for it Matt.I orginally bought it as a long term investment for maybe 10-15 yrs out but I had run out of funds on the shop so something had to go.I had it up on the forsale board at one forum and in 72 hours a deal struck for $1600.


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## Amsel (Nov 16, 2009)

A very nice piece. Springfield can build a rifle.

My dream rifle is the 'Whitefeather' model from Springfield Armory.


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## drgondog (Nov 16, 2009)

javlin said:


> Not following that one Dragon??I have a 56 Springfield with under a 1000 rds ever run through it.I have had offers way more than what I paid for it by some more knowledgable than I for sure.The rifle I really regrett cutting loose was my BM-59.The only piece that was not Beretta on it was the barrel it was a Springfield.



"Only thing Matt I might like fiberglass in my underwear" is what prompted my sly remark regarding 'taste' or preferences..

I have the M1A and like it very much but IF I had to settle on one piece in my collection the AR-10 would be it.


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## Soren (Nov 16, 2009)

Should the world ever break out into a global conflict then this is the firearm I'd want to have with me:






The H&K G3A4. Best full power battlerifle in the world IMO.


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## piet (Nov 16, 2009)

use this one insted AK-107...... the hk is nice but its to big


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## Soren (Nov 16, 2009)

Nah, I want abit more power range, and the G3 isn't a big rifle, it's quite small actually.


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## Amsel (Nov 16, 2009)

Do you know anything about the photo of the Marine firing the G3 in the lower photo?


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## Soren (Nov 17, 2009)

This is what I got on them Amsel:


_U.S. Marine Corps Sgt. Edward W. Deptola fires a Heckler Koch G3 rifle during an enhanced marksmanship program shoot held with the 15th Kenyan Rifle Battalion March 5, 2007, during Edged Mallet 2007 at Naval Base Manda Bay, Kenya. The 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit is conducting the bilateral exercise, which includes operational training with Kenyan land and naval forces as well as serving the local community at a medical clinic and refurbishing a school. The Marines are from Weapons Company, Battalion Landing Team 2/2, 26th MEU. _:






_U.S. Marine Corps Sgt. Edward W. Deptola exchanges his M16A4 rifle for a G3 gun with a Kenyan army soldier from the 15th Kenyan Rifle Battalion March 5, 2007, during Edged Mallet 2007 at Naval Base Manda Bay, Kenya. The 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit is conducting the bilateral exercise, which includes operational training with Kenyan land and naval forces as well as serving the local community at a medical clinic and refurbishing a school. Deptola is from Weapons Company, Battalion Landing Team 2/2, 2 6th MEU._






_Lance Corporal (LCPL) Brian Huffman, USMC, Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) Gunner, Golf Company, Battalion Landing Team, 2nd Battalion, 2nd Marines (BLT 2/2), 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable) (MEU SOC), practices sighting in, on the Heckler Koch G3 (German Automatic Rifle), during Exercise EDGE MALLET 2003 in Manda Bay, Kenya._:


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## CharlesBronson (Jun 6, 2010)

Well... i am arriving a bit late to the conversation, but aniway here are 2 of them, Bersa Thunder 9mm pictol. Rubi Extra 16 gauge single shot shotgun. Both manufatured locally.


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 6, 2010)

Very cool, I love the shotgun!


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## bobbysocks (Jun 6, 2010)

wow...i guess i should take pics of them if nothing than for insurance reasons,,,but i have:
M1 Garand ...Korean war issue
eastern arms 22...only bolt action i own...old was my dad's
Daewoo K2...ak gas system folding stock...556mm
AR15...old A1 without farward assist. need to to use with the little auto link.
Hk 91 converted to select fire 762
hk 94 converted to select fire 9mm
polytech ak in 556 select fire
galil 556...never fired
chinese uzi 9mm...never fired
M-11/9 select fire with silencer
charter arms 22 with silencer
mossberg 16 ga pump...inherited.
pistols
war issue p 38
ruger p89
amt lightening 22 ( their knock off of a ruger )
amt backup 380
beretta 25
sundance boa 25 
jennings 22
taurus 380
HR 22 break open
old HR 22...from grandfather
some generic 38spl...inherited and never looked at
probably a few i forgot. was a gun dealer for over 20 years...so have a few and all kept in a safe at another location i own..


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## RabidAlien (Jun 6, 2010)

Dude...when zombies invade, I'm coming over to your house, okay?


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## MacArther (Jun 7, 2010)

RabidAlien said:


> Dude...when zombies invade, I'm coming over to your house, okay?



I second that motion!


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## bobbysocks (Jun 7, 2010)

bring pizza and lots of rum...


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## Matt308 (Jun 7, 2010)

To hell with that, bring a box of shells and use the guns to get the pizza and rum from your neighbors.


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## bobbysocks (Jun 7, 2010)

ya got to remember the 4 Gs....God, Guns, Groceries, Girls....the order of priority may change as to your personal proclivities  ammo, is not a problem....


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## Lucky13 (Jun 7, 2010)

I only have one gun....can I still come and play? 

Interesting thread fellas!8)


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## T Bolt (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't know Jan, I don't think its big enough


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## GrauGeist (Jun 7, 2010)

Lucky13 said:


> I only have one gun....can I still come and play?


Sure Jan, why not?

Got a thread on it right here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/off-topic-misc/how-real-men-shoot-trap-21892.html


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## ToughOmbre (Jun 7, 2010)

Speaking of guns.....

This is the favorite weapon in my modest collection. A Browning Hi Power 9mm manufactured by Fabrique Nationale in German occupied Belgium. In German service, it was used mainly by Waffen-SS and Fallschirmjäger personnel.

My father took it off a German POW at the Battle of the Bulge. It has the German inspection and acceptance marks, or Waffenamts, *WaA140*. If you look at the photos closely you can see the the marks.

The September 2009 issue of the "American Rifleman" magazine ranked it No. 9 in the top ten handguns of all time. 

Of course, I could never put a price on the sentimental value of this gun. It will stay in our family forever.

TO


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## Matt308 (Jun 8, 2010)

Nice! The finish is rougher than the pre-war versions, but those tooling marks are all part of history. That is a very nice piece there. Put that one way back in the safe.


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## CharlesBronson (Jun 8, 2010)

Nice Hp must worth at list coulple of thousands for sure.



> Very cool, I love the shotgun!



Is kind of oldie, but still very useful for duck hunting since it has a very closed choke.



> Dude...when zombies invade, I'm coming over to your house, okay?



Thirded !!


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## Pisis (Jun 14, 2010)

These be my two fav toys, among others.
*ČZ 75D Compact* and *Beretta 92FS*.


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## Matt308 (Jun 16, 2010)

While the Beretta has a much more smooth action, trying to fire it double action takes a large hand. But the action is SOOOOO smooth right out of the box. The CZ75 has an exquisite grip and feel. If I had a choice, I would choose the CZ only because I have small hands. Otherwise the Beretta wins hands down for fit and finish.

Pisis, both are awesome guns.


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## Pisis (Jun 17, 2010)

Thanks.
Oh yeah, the "Chezetka", as we call it, is much more manouverable in my opinion. 
But as sometimes I do, I can't help myself with the B92 beast, as I love the shape.


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## RabidAlien (Jul 11, 2010)

Guess I'll go ahead and post, since I now own something a little more high-powered than an airsoft gun. Finally got the wife to go shooting this past Thursday, and now she's hooked...so I got the okay to pick up a Mosin-Nagant 91/30 while at Cabellas (outdoor/hunting shop...biiiig toystore!) this afternoon. Paid $100 (they were out of ammo, unfortunately) for the rifle, bayonette, some random canvas-string pouch (ammo, possibly?) and a two-pocket leather cleaning/repair kit with, apparently, all the parts to it. Oh, and the canvas sling. Pedigree is supposed to hail back to WW2 (receiver is stamped 1942), but don't have any solid paperwork to back that up. I may have to research the serial number, but not sure how serious Russia was with the paperwork during that time. Okay, enough rambling...time for pics (yeah, I'm the fat guy in the last one...stupid middle-age...):


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## Matt308 (Jul 13, 2010)

Nice one. Paid about right for retail. Looks in good shape, aresenal refinished. Be careful with the ammo you use and clean it immediately after use if you use corrosive powder/primers. Most of the older Soviet stuff is highly corrosive.


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## RabidAlien (Jul 13, 2010)

Thanks! Planning on getting a good cleaning kit when I go to pick up ammo for it. Now I just gotta figure out what all the bells and whistles are in that maintenance kit...I should spread em out and post a pic...just gotta get off my lazy duff and do it!


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## ToughOmbre (Jul 13, 2010)

Nice lookin' rifle there RA!

Might try ordering your ammo from Cabela's online if it wasn't in stock in the store. Worked for me for my M1Garand ammo. 

TO


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 14, 2010)

Nice score!


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## Matt308 (Jul 14, 2010)

www.midwayusa.com

A boy can get lost here...


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## RabidAlien (Jul 14, 2010)

::drools:: If y'all don't hear from me in the next 72 hours, send burritos...


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## javlin (Jul 15, 2010)

Good deal RA she kicks pretty good .Cheers


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## Matt308 (Jul 17, 2010)

RA... you still alive buddy? Pull your VISA out of the Midway card reader and wipe the drool off your face. Square up man!!

Now where were we...


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## RabidAlien (Jul 18, 2010)

::gasping for air:: Whew! Thanks for that. ::takes deep breath:: In I go again...!



BTW....anyone know where one might dig up a scope, scope mount, and down-turned bolt that would match up with a 1942 Mosin-Nagant? All I have found so far are scopes already attached to the rifles. And the only spec/model I have found anywhere is that it was a 4x scope, and called a "PU". Nothing other than that.


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## bobbysocks (Jul 18, 2010)

Midway ammo is good stuff. when the first norinco and polytech aks came into the country ammo 762x39 was hard to get. Midway was one of the few places to have it and made it a in soft nose hunting rounds at 25 cents a round. i burned a lot of their rounds and have no complaints...

as for gun parts for that...try here.

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/


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## B-17engineer (Jul 18, 2010)

RabidAlien said:


> ::gasping for air:: Whew! Thanks for that. ::takes deep breath:: In I go again...!



That's what she said!!!! Never knew those were possible on the internet...

My dads gun for work is a Glock 17.


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## RabidAlien (Jul 18, 2010)

Holy frikkin crap, Bobbysocks!!!! You can order and scratch-build just about any weapon out there! LOVIN that site!!!


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## Torch (Jul 19, 2010)

If your impressed with Midway check out Brownells, the stuff they have will make your head spin......


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## bobbysocks (Jul 19, 2010)

RA there are a couple other places i used to snag parts from. they dont come to mind at the moment. if i get a chance i will go through some old invoices ( if my wife hasnt thrown them away) and see if they are still in biz.


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## CharlesBronson (Jul 19, 2010)

> Guess I'll go ahead and post, since I now own something a little more high-powered than an airsoft gun. Finally got the wife to go shooting this past Thursday, and now she's hooked...so I got the okay to pick up a Mosin-Nagant 91/30 while at Cabellas (outdoor/hunting shop...biiiig toystore!) this afternoon. Paid $100 (they were out of ammo, unfortunately) for the rifle, bayonette, some random canvas-string pouch (ammo, possibly?) and a two-pocket leather cleaning/repair kit with, apparently, all the parts to it. Oh, and the canvas sling. Pedigree is supposed to hail back to WW2 (receiver is stamped 1942), but don't have any solid paperwork to back that up. I may have to research the serial number, but not sure how serious Russia was with the paperwork during that time. Okay, enough rambling...time for pics (yeah, I'm the fat guy in the last one...stupid middle-age...):



Nice rifle.You look ready to become Vassily Karbinikov 8)


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## Matt308 (Jul 20, 2010)

B-17engineer said:


> My dads gun for work is a Glock 17.



My favorite gun. Glock in 9mm or .40. Same frame size. Own both. Can't beat a G17 with small grip frame with 20rds (with a +2 extended mag).

I haven't tried the Springfield XD(m) though...  But she's not neer purty enough to my wallflower, Glock.


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## Matt308 (Jul 20, 2010)

B-17engineer said:


> My dads gun for work is a Glock 17.



My favorite gun. Glock in 9mm or .40. Same frame size. Own both. Can't beat a G17 with small grip frame with 20rds (with a +2 extended mag).

I haven't tried the Springfield XD(m) though...  But she's not neer purty enough to my wallflower, Glock


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## Matt308 (Jul 20, 2010)

See!?!? Seee!!!? Godaaammit I have a siggy for a reason!

What is up with the forum today!!!!


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## B-17engineer (Jul 21, 2010)

Never shot it, seem it fired, but it sounds great 8)


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## Torch (Jul 21, 2010)

I've had multiple glocks and sold them all, not that they didn't shoot I just kept getting trigger finger rub after shooting a bunch of rounds thru them. Oh well I ended up with an H&K P30l and a CZ SP01 Shadow from CZ's custom shop, now I'm happy.


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## Matt308 (Jul 21, 2010)

I didn't know CZ even had a custom shop.


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## Torch (Jul 21, 2010)

Yeah there team shooter Angus Hobdell works magic on CZs...CZ Custom Shop


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## Catch22 (Jul 29, 2010)

Same deal as B-17, my dad's service weapon is a Glock 9mm (not sure the model however). When he was in Tactical (SWAT) he had a Sig 9mm (once again, don't remember the model) and an MP5. He had the choice of an MP5 or an M16 but preferred the MP5 as he found the M16 jammed more often, and the majority of what they did were house entries, so the range of the M16 was nullified for the most part. I had the chance to fire all three, I preferred the M16 from a firing perspective.


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 29, 2010)

Every time I shot a Glock it always seemed to end up jamming on me.


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## machine shop tom (Jul 29, 2010)

RabidAlien, here are some sites and pages you may find interesting:

http://7.62x54r.net/

Mosin Nagant - Gun and Game Forums

The Collector's Forum - Mosin Nagant HQ

Mosin Nagant

AIM Surplus Home

tom (I have a few Mosins.......)


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## B-17engineer (Jul 29, 2010)

Yes almost forgot. 

Each squad car has a Binelli Shotgun. 

Each officer is (if they want, not all do) allowed to carry a Kahr Arms P380 Sub Compact. They are 'back-up' firearms incase in the unfortunate event their primary arm got stolen. They're small enough to be hidden from view and pack a punch.


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## RabidAlien (Jul 30, 2010)

Thanks, Tom, I've got those bookmarked now for later leisurely perusal!


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## Wayne Little (Jul 30, 2010)

Interesting there Harrison!


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## Catch22 (Jul 30, 2010)

vikingBerserker said:


> Every time I shot a Glock it always seemed to end up jamming on me.



And that is exactly why Tactical has the Sig Sauers.


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## B-17engineer (Jul 30, 2010)

Yep the Binelli's are in the trunk of the car but some of the older model shotguns can be on a rack up front with the officers


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## sabrina (Aug 3, 2010)

I know, I know, I'm violating the content of this thread but I love my knife and there's no knife thread. I already posted what guns I owned. Here's my baby: not the highest quality in the world but we've been through some good times. 

I remember when I used to head out on a quiet lake in CO on my days off, where there were rarely more than 2 other people in the whole place, not counting numerous mountain lions. I had shed part of my uniform, so I was still wearing a black camisole and black pants, and climbed up a tree with a book with this knife on my hip. Two idiot guys came along a half hour afterwards and unknowingly sat at the base of my tree, talking, drinking beer, laughing, entirely unobservant.

Finally I couldn't wait any more. I moved and made a little scuffling sound against the bark and they looked up, startled, to see a woman in black curled up in the branches with a knife hanging down. I've never seen anyone spew such an impressive trajectory of beer out their mouth.


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## Matt308 (Aug 3, 2010)

Now that is a hell of a story. I rather doubt they just spewed beer out of their mouths.


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## Bucksnort101 (Aug 3, 2010)

Nice, I never leave the house without at least one knife attached to me. Usually not quite that large of one, but big enough to intimidate someone that may have bad itentions. 

Funny story, have done the same thing several times while out hunting with the Bow and Arrow. When I see someone coming I see how long it takes them to spot me when I'm hidden, and let out a whistle before they get too close. Would not try this if the other person is carrying a gun though. Never know when the guy with the gun is an idiot or not. Unfortunately there are too many people in the woods "hunting' that don't have a clue or get to excited when they think they see or hear game.


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## Matt308 (Aug 3, 2010)

vikingBerserker said:


> Every time I shot a Glock it always seemed to end up jamming on me.



That's because you are limp wristing it. Just take a more firm grip. Any of the "plastic wonder nines" will jam in that fashion.


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## RabidAlien (Aug 3, 2010)

Good one, Sabrina! I'll have to crawl up in the attic and find my favorite hiking knife...always carried one on the hip when out hiking, because I'm an idiot and usually went out alone. Of course, the largest knife still feels somewhat inadequate when you come around the bend in a trail and find yourself about 20 feet away from 1500 pounds worth of moose. Thankfully, the Lord loves idiots, cuz the moose decided I wasn't worth the effort and took another trail.


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## bobbysocks (Sep 8, 2010)

Top Ten Reasons Why Men Prefer Guns Over Women...




And here we go...

 
#10 - You can trade an old 44 for a new 22.

#9 - You can keep one gun at home and have another for when you're on the road. 

#8 - If you admire a friend's gun and tell him so, he will probably let you try it out a few times.

#7 - Your primary gun doesn't mind if you keep another gun for a backup.

#6 - Your gun will stay with you even if you run out of ammo.

#5 - A gun doesn't take up a lot of closet space. 

#4 - Guns function normally every day of the month.

#3 - A gun doesn't ask, "Do these new grips make me look fat?"

#2 - A gun doesn't mind if you go to sleep after you use it.

And the Number One reason

Why Men Prefer Guns Over Women.....




#1 - You can buy a silencer for a gun!


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## RabidAlien (Sep 8, 2010)




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## vikingBerserker (Sep 8, 2010)

Matt308 said:


> That's because you are limp wristing it. Just take a more firm grip. Any of the "plastic wonder nines" will jam in that fashion.



Well that's embarrassing as hell, Thanks for the tip!


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## Matt308 (Sep 10, 2010)




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## tyrodtom (Sep 10, 2010)

I have
Enfield #4, Mk 1 
CZ 75-9mm
Ruger Mk I
And looking for a good pump shotgun, my son in law wants me to go duck hunting with him on Thanksgiving.


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## Bucksnort101 (Sep 10, 2010)

tyrodtom said:


> And looking for a good pump shotgun, my son in law wants me to go duck hunting with him on Thanksgiving.



Cant' go wrong with a Remington 870 for a pump shotgun. They've been around forever, take beating an keep on shooting. I've owned a couple Mossberg 12 guages chambered for 3.5" shells and have had extraction problems with two of them, third one seems to be OK. If I were to get another pump shotgun it would either be an 870 or a Benelli Nova.


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## Matt308 (Sep 10, 2010)

I have a Mossberg 590 (Mil Spec civil version). The legend that they jam because they have single action bars has been displelled when in the 1970s they adopted a dual action bar architecture.

US DoD uses them. They can't be too terribly unreliable. Right?


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## RabidAlien (Sep 11, 2010)

Hmmm...methinks that if the shotgun doesn't do the trick, the bayonet probably isn't gonna make him sweat.


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## Matt308 (Sep 11, 2010)

Not my actual weapon. Besides that pic has the wrong bayonet on it.


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## A4K (Sep 11, 2010)

Don't own one any more, but had a Lee-Enfield No.4 Mk.I in my hands for the first time in years today...damn I miss that rifle.


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## bobbysocks (Sep 12, 2010)

Matt308 said:


> That's because you are limp wristing it. Just take a more firm grip. Any of the "plastic wonder nines" will jam in that fashion.



whenever someone bought an automatic from me and brought it back claiming excessive jams..99% of the time it was limp wristing. they were either squeezing only the trigger or were flinching in anticipation of the recoil. after a few minutes of instruction they left and never had problems again.


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## tyrodtom (Sep 12, 2010)

Just because the DOD uses something isn't necessarily a stamp of approval.
As one of my pilot friends used to remind me "remember, this was made by the lowest bidder" .
I like my Enfield, it was modified into a wannabe jungle carbine, and I use it.
Got a wild boar with it in Florida in Janurary.


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## Matt308 (Sep 16, 2010)

tyrodtom said:


> Just because the DOD uses something isn't necessarily a stamp of approval.
> As one of my pilot friends used to remind me "remember, this was made by the lowest bidder" .
> I like my Enfield, it was modified into a wannabe jungle carbine, and I use it.
> Got a wild boar with it in Florida in Janurary.



I would say it is for a weapon that has been in the arsenal as long as the Mossberg.


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## javlin (Oct 31, 2010)

Well I went shooting today for the first time in three years.I had aquired an M1 Garand parade rifle strictly to obtain the Bar site from WWII and Korea era.I only payed $75 for the rifle and the site was worth that plus some maybe and then a few other pieces I got.Anyway got to try her out today on the M1a and I really liked it alot much easier to use than the SA mount and does not drop in elevation which the SA would if you forgot to tighten the screw after every change.In the first five shots three found the 2" target at 50yards one was high but I had no more windage adj?? so I did a feild repair took it off reajusted it to center and tried again then you see shots all around then the last three shots in quick sucession 2-3 seconds found the target.I still have work for a 100yd mark but did manage a nice 1" group on a quick pull with two going a little high.The L's on the 100yd target are Larry's with his DPMS .223 the K's are my lousy shot(I do not shoot well w/scope).All in all had a good time and Larry and Wai had to shoot the Inland 1944 carbine and commented on how accurate it was I can make a can walk at 50-75 range as soon as hit hits the ground with that one.It's the home defense weapon w/paratrooper stock and 15rd clip.I do not know if the site will be clean enough in the photo but if you remember Band of Brothers at the Crossroads as the Captain adj. his site that is the type of site it is Cheers


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## bobbysocks (Oct 31, 2010)

nice looking piece. if you need parts you dont have to buy a whole gun. try numrich or sarco they have tons of hard to find parts and are pretty reasonable.


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## Matt308 (Oct 31, 2010)

That looks like awfully dark bluing. Redone I take it? Nice lines and love the stock.


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## Glider (Oct 31, 2010)

Can I ask how wide those targets are as they obviously differ from UK ones?


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## javlin (Oct 31, 2010)

Glider those are 3" targets you just stick to paper.Matt never been reblued and that is a Boyd's stock.I bought her about 10years ago new in box traded a Mini-14 and 7 or 8 bills then.The photos are not iin good lighting at all flourescent at that.I will try to take some tomorrow in the sunlight.As far as buying parts I perferr orginal GI parts to when I can and $75 for a whole rifle for a part that on Gunbroker would be $65+ no shipping,no taxes and no haggling suited me fine at the time .I have attached some photos of my M1 carbine 05/44 on the barrel with serial number correct for that timeframe Inland also.the triggergroup is IBM but I have an Inland housing and all Inland parts in the cabinet waiting for my assembly I p/u at the Gunshow about 2 months ago.I also have a F/A Thompson kit I got out of Russia for the barrel and wood and will sell the lower on GB one day.


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## Matt308 (Oct 31, 2010)

crisp and clean the M1 is. I probably missed it, but that is not a WWII nor Korea vintage M1 then? Sorry if this was already in the thread.


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## javlin (Oct 31, 2010)

The carbine is WWII 05/44 on the barrel now the stock is the Italian copy of the WWII para stock be nice to have an orginal she be worth 2500-3000 bills then.The M1a is the SA semi model of the M14 now if I rejoin the club and start shooting alot again I can pull about a 1.5" group @100yds and hit the 18"X18" gong 4 out of 5 @320yds.I do not use a scope as you can see with that DPMS .223 I was terrible.Cheers


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## Matt308 (Oct 31, 2010)

No worries, I have a crappy Universal Firearms anniversary edition that will outshoot any WWII original. It's just what you want.


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## javlin (Oct 31, 2010)

Matt308 said:


> No worries, I have a crappy Universal Firearms anniversary edition that will outshoot any WWII original. It's just what you want.



I had an early Universal and it was more accurate than my Inland at 100yds for target shooting but I sold it years ago for $500 with alittle work done to it.It was the one with the duel spring setup that was suppose to be a POS but it worked and shot flawless.I would love to acquire a F/A carbine no kick and 30rds in place and 30rds zipping over your head  now that would be sweet.Only 5-6G's  thats cheap for a F/A but I would have to let go of my G43 and that's not happening.


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## Matt308 (Oct 31, 2010)

Wahhhh....


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## javlin (Nov 1, 2010)

Yeah don't poo-poo the Universail but if we start talking Kahr's that might be another story unless in the last couple of years they have gotten there quality control issues taken care of.The reason I like GI issue is 1) the quility of the steel is usually better in the small parts and like that sight simpilicity of design 2) GI issue weapons wether foreign or domestic hold there value much better.I drive a real POS 78 Chevy stepside w/6cyl it's a classic example of "on a warm summer evening if you listen closely you can hear the rust crackling on a Chevrolet" because I rather invest my funds in things that hold there value.Now my Wife drives the new vehicle and it gets payed off in 6-8 months  that will be huge for me.One thing I can kick myself in the arse over Matt is getting rid of my BM59. I know more than sold it and Reesce's inventory dried up and they went up 500-1000 smackers since I sold it 3yrs ago .It was one of those I saw for an investment 10-15 years down the road and here it is 6yrs out 50% increase


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## bobbysocks (Nov 1, 2010)

in the late 80s early 90s there used to be 2 m1 carbine aftermarket repoductions...universal and ??? but the universal was the better model. i did a quick search and see auto ordnance does them now...but i dont recall them back then. the new models took a big hit in the early 90s when a $#!tload of lend/lease stuff came back from the far east and central america. garands and carbines flooded the us. all the parkerizing was stripped off and the entire action was thown in a phospate vat. they resembled early m16s in color greenish gray. i think i sold them for $169. i kick myself for never keeping one.... but does anyone remember who the other manufacture was? maybe iver johnson???


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## Matt308 (Nov 1, 2010)

Iver Johnson. They even made a necked down .30 carbine in .22 Spitfire (40gr @ almost 3000fps)


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## javlin (Nov 1, 2010)

It's Iver Johnson.I also came across an Alpine once in my hunts thought I had something it said "US Carbine" but was aftermarket by a small company.I was told by other collectors leave it worth maybe $250 at best "if it Worked".The AO name was bought by Kahr if I am not mistaken,in any regards have heard problems with the way these guys function.


here you go Matt a bit pricey I think for a Para but.............http://www.makereadyforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=61923


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## javlin (Nov 1, 2010)

My SA M1a Standard 1.5" @100yds with practice 5rds

My G43 all matching never sanded with proofs

FN 49 contract for Argentine Navy(5000 made) only one's made with the 20rd detachable.There were other conversions but done by Governments but not by FN under contract from what I understand.Matching #'s throughout w/7.65 gas port adj. but later converted to NATO 7.62


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## Matt308 (Nov 1, 2010)

Your G43 looks refinished. But even still worth some $$$.


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## javlin (Nov 1, 2010)

Not refinished Matt just cared for by Me.When I got her she was treated with linseed oil over the course of a week she was very dry.I linseeded all the rifles about 4 months ago with a very lite coat.The red color comes from the glue that was used for the Laminate there are examples of what are called blondes but are few and far in between.The scope mount is a repo and the scope is correct in production # to the rifle.


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## Matt308 (Nov 1, 2010)

Very nice. I too linseeded my CMP M1D, but only once. I was fearful it would take off value. Ofcourse you only live once, so I also shot it.

You have a definite keeper. Wish she was mine. Don't over stroke her though. Little care is better for historical resale.


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## javlin (Nov 1, 2010)

That sounds nice thier Matt M1D isn't that the sniper version of the Garand?Ought to throw up some pics of her.I think after the the wife's truck is paid off I will be looking for either an SVT40 or to get a VZ58 it is still on the list.

I googled nice rig http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=-FPPTKLzHYO78gbN9dDmDA&ved=0CCAQ9QEwAQ

the guy(Ralph) I bought the G43 from has two of these in the shop and 3 Johnson LMG's not for sale are the Johnsons and no one gets to touch I asked 

All this talk I will have to head over to Ralphs shop on Thursday and see whats in the inventory.Ralph had at one time an MG 42 and a MG34(?) on AA Tripod.


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## Matt308 (Nov 1, 2010)

If you have the money and they are legit, get the Johnson. I wish a I did in the 1990's. They were a mint then and they will only go up in price.

I got my M1D with the Weaver M84 scope for $600 from the CMP in a raffle. At the time it was worth $3500 so I felt like I won the lottery. Has all the US Govt papers for pedigree/provenance.

Would like to have a regular/shooter though. Yours looks like a beauty.


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## javlin (Nov 1, 2010)

Those Johnson are out of my league but I found the topic I started over at EOTC and the price on the M1D was $3200 then and you did hit the lottery sheeesh if only I could be that lucky.Cheers

Topic:http://www.makereadyforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55212


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## Matt308 (Nov 2, 2010)

It actually was a lottery at the time. You had to submit reams of paperwork and current fingerprints. Not range membership nor CMP approved shoot required. Virtually everybody in the office applied and actually two of us got one. You can imagine how jealous those who didn't became.

She arrived in a cardboard box coated heavily in cosmoline. Not a blemish on her. She's a safe queen now.


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## javlin (Nov 4, 2010)

Well I was intending before I left to p/u something today I have not p/u a real rifle in 3yrs.Today I got to fill a certain niche' in the collection with a decent K98 byf 44 which looks to be mostly matching.The bolt,reciever,trigger ass. and front band all end in 535.The stock no longer has the eagle proofs but is pretty nice shape I give it an 80%and the blueing is at about 60%.I have been looking for awhile to p/u a nice K98 with matching numbers.The rifle came from the Rock Island Auction last year he told me and he's tell'in me that it's getting to be the only place almost anymore to get a good specimen.Ralph had a very nice 03 A I was thinking about but I have a standard 03 ATTM maybe after the first of the year if he still has it.Matt he now has 6 Johnson in the shop now and I inquired about the price (it was negotiable) $6000>$5000 and the $5600>$4900.Ralph has one wall of stuff he displays for eye candy and are not forsale that has the other 4 Johnsons and a contract rifle that lost to the M1 Garand.This rifle he says lost the contract due to being presented in the wrong caliber??We discussed this some like why would they even do that when the Guberment tells you 30-06?anyway some very nice lines in the rifle,sweet.Crappy pics sun going down......


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## Matt308 (Nov 4, 2010)

Gun porn. Gotta love it.


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## javlin (Jan 29, 2011)

Hey Matt ran into an old customer/acquintence yesterday I haven't seen in oh maybe four years now.I was talking with him about his car collection (46) and his gun collection(140+),will he invited me out shooting sometime in the future.I am going to be shooting a WWII BAR 8) an M14 F/A,M16 F/A and I hope he has a Thompson.The guy has 15 F/A MG's  once the weather starts to warm up alittle more I am out the door and he said do not worry about the ammo  yea!!!!!


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## vikingBerserker (Jan 29, 2011)

Kevin, some days I really don't like you. 

Why no, I'm not jealous..............


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## TimEwers (Jan 29, 2011)

Hmm I got a pea shooter and a rubber band gun I made myself, would those count for this thread.


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## LA2019 (Feb 2, 2011)

Wow, many nice firearms! Here's my contribution...

Springfield 1911 with Pachmayr grips and a Walther P22.


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## Bucksnort101 (Feb 2, 2011)

I kinda like those P22's. I heard a guy at the local gun shop say you can almost get those things to shoot fully auto by pulling the trigger fully once, holding it down and then just jiggle your trigger finger side to side a little to get additional rounds to fire. No need to let loose the trigger fully. Wonder if he was full of beans. I'm sure you could get a good 12" group doing that

Javlin - Give a date, time, and location of that shooting get together and I'm there


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## bobbysocks (Feb 2, 2011)

Bucksnort101 said:


> I kinda like those P22's. *I heard a guy at the local gun shop say you can almost get those things to shoot fully auto by pulling the trigger fully once, holding it down and then just jiggle your trigger finger side to side a little to get additional rounds to fire. No need to let loose the trigger fully.* Wonder if he was full of beans. I'm sure you could get a good 12" group doing that
> 
> Javlin - Give a date, time, and location of that shooting get together and I'm there




its called a "bump fire" and it does work and with almost all semis...


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx-9jDLGyUY_


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UumQvPGQNis_


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMoIocLvPSA_


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lyd67QdAQS4_


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## Bucksnort101 (Feb 2, 2011)

Well, I learned something new today. Now I need to go out and pick up a semi-auto shotgun and give it a try.


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## tyrodtom (Feb 3, 2011)

Looks like just another way to waste ammo.
You can tell they have no barrel control with most of their concentration going toward holding that other finger just right so the recoil of gun bounces the trigger on and off your finger.


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## bobbysocks (Feb 3, 2011)

sometimes its not about hitting the target, it more about firing the weapon.


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## dogsbody (Feb 10, 2011)

I don't have any pictures of my guns, but I do have a list:

1939 Mosin-Nagant. 7.62mm Russian bolt-action rifle with 12" to 15" cruciform, socket-type bayonet

1941 Tokarev SKS ( SVT ). Russian 7.62mm semi-auto rifle

1952 Mauser. Spanish-built copy of German 7.92mm Mauser Karabiner 98K with 9" knife type bayonet.

1940 Mauser. Turkish-built copy of German 7.92mm Gewehr 98 with same bayonet as above. This is a long barrelled weapon. The Mauser above is of the later, shorter barrel type.


Undated SMLE Number 4 Mk.1 .303in. Enfield rifle with 9' spike style bayonet

1945 SMLE Number 5 Mk.1 .303in rifle. Also known as the " Jungle Carbine ".


And a Remington Model 12A, pump-action .22 rifle. Not sure of the age, but they stopped making then in 1936.


Chris


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## Bucksnort101 (Feb 10, 2011)

dogsbody said:


> And a Remington Model 12A, pump-action .22 rifle. Not sure of the age, but they stopped making then in 1936.
> Chris



That's kinda funny. I was just at the local Cabela's Sporting Goods store last night and they have a Model 12 for sale in the Gun Library. Looked to be in pretty nice condition for it's age, but the asking price of $585 was a bit more that I could spend. Was a neat little rifle though.


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## javlin (Feb 10, 2011)

1941 Tokarev SKS ( SVT ). Russian 7.62mm semi-auto rifle

That is on the want list.Does it function okay?

"1945 SMLE Number 5 Mk.1 .303in rifle. Also known as the " Jungle Carbine ".

not a big fan of the Endfield but that version is kinda on the list.Cheers


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## dogsbody (Feb 10, 2011)

javlin said:


> 1941 Tokarev SKS ( SVT ). Russian 7.62mm semi-auto rifle
> 
> That is on the want list.Does it function okay?
> 
> ...




The last time I fired the SKS was way back in the mid 80's. It worked okay then. Due to a lack of ammo, it hasn't been fired since.


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## GrauGeist (Feb 13, 2011)

Well...last weekend I finally made time to take my Umarex (UX22 M4 Carbine) out and run some rounds through it. I've only been wanting to do that since I bought it Christmas week of 2009...

It has substantial weight for being a .22, and feels handles much like it's 5.56/.223 big brother (AR15A2/M4 Carbine).

With the OEM iron sights, I was putting a nice tight group at 30 40 yards though next time out I'll go for 50+ yards.

Only drawback to the overall experience, is that I was getting an occasional stovepipe and once even suffered the mother of all jambs. I suspect that the cheapass box of ammo that I grabbed at Big 5 might be the root cause of this, and next time will run some premium ammo through it for comparison. The ammo I took was the Remington .22 LR "Golden Bullet" (36 gr. bullet) which may be ok for rigs like a Ruger 10-22 but the Umarex may need something a little hotter to work the bolt properly.

Don't think I posted pix when I brought it home, so here's a couple of photos of it, to give an idea of what it looks like for those who may not be familiar with the Umarex M4.


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## javlin (Feb 13, 2011)

Nice little setup GS and yes suspect the ammo since we are dealing r/f but can this girl shoot c/f with a simple conversion?I have seen it the other way around from c/f > r/f with a simple kit.Kevin

I guess it's the basic 22 r/f not magnums?


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## GrauGeist (Feb 13, 2011)

They specify LR r/f as the only ammo to be used, unlike my HR .22 wheel gun, for example, that can take mag/LR/long/short.

I've seen some discussion regarding c/f mods for the Umarex, but Walther made this in such a way that it wouldn't be possible to make any changes except for exterior gingerbread.

If you want, I can post some detailed pix regarding the innards (bolt, reciever, etc) to see what you think...


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## javlin (Feb 13, 2011)

That really will probably not help much GS.The stuff I collect all have some wood on them and I have never owned this platform shot a couple but thats about it.And as I am typing I can almost see the conversion from c/f to r/f.I would think another piece has to go in front of the OEM bolt to 1)take up the space and 2) to convert to r/f.Wereas the other way around would require at least a bolt change provided the slot in receiver could hold it.


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## bobbysocks (Feb 13, 2011)

nice piece! that is way better than the 22 versions of the ar and ak from the 80s 90s. the ammo you are able to shoot is going to be limited by the dimentions of the mag, the chamber, and the recoil spring. 22 shorts or birdshot rounds probably wont have enough umph to work the action and 22magnum rounds most likely wont fit in the magazine or the breech. look on some forums for the hottest 22lr or go buy ONE box of a certain make and try it. if it works without flaw go for more. there was a version of the CCI stinger that used to do well in just about everything. but i havent bought ammo in a LONG time so... also, HOWEVER, 22 semis seem to have this tendancy to jam on occasion. no matter how well made or the ammo. 22rf is just a dirty firing round. if you are going to fire a bunch i would run a swab down the barrel ( from the breech to the muzzle) after 50 or so rounds.
as for a c/f conversion....for that you would most likely have to change the whole upper receiver ( including the bolt carrier ) and depending on how it is set up...get a new return/recoil spring. plus you would have to get a mag to accomidate the new round. the biggest factor here besides the money is IF the lower can withstand the stress of the bigger round. eating a bolt carrier or losing fingers is not something you want to do. in short you might as well just buy a new gun! 
as for converting to full auto..there may be legal kits out there. check all BATF regs. converting by yourself is a big no no and you wouldnt want to do that.


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## javlin (Feb 13, 2011)

No converting to F/A .There are to be only so many F/A available from here on out unless the ATF wants to change,last I read was about 250,000 F/A in the US?Gun manufactures can of course make for the PD's and the Military but these are what are called Post-May examples only for dealers and the afore mentioned.Now I have read though some years back one can make his own F/A with his own serial # with approval pending from the ATF.The said individual has to pay a yearly tax like $500 maybe more now as long as they own the gun.That being said "as long as you own the gun" can never be resold so I take the ATF would destroy to eleviate the tax.Now I would not take that as gospel Bobby on the blue part something I always remembered while researching an FG42 being reproduced out West(AZ? 2004?) and not a FA but semi and questions coming about the production and the ATF's involvement.There were some MP44's being produced I thought in Central Europe in Semi and made it as far as Canada and if I remember right the importer was Marstar or something of the like.The ATF never would give the OK on the rifle saying it was still to similiar to the FA version.


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## bobbysocks (Feb 13, 2011)

they way F/As worked was this. you had 2 pictures taken and 2 sets of fingerprints from the local CLEO ( chief law enforcement officer ) of your area. you took those to your local dealer who had the form which you filled out in dulpicate. a picture and finger print card went on each one. these were for 1 specific NFA weapon. These also had to have the signature of the CLEO...and then were sent to the FBI along with a check for $200 for silencers and F/As... $5.00 for sawed off shotguns or any "other weapon" ( this was in the 80s and 90s). after they did their background check you got one of the applications back with a HUGE stamp ( postage style ) that said "transfer tax". and you were allowed then to pick up your weapon. you only paid that tax once. during daddy bush's regime they passed the machinegun ban for civilian use. all LEO and MIL were exempt from this. the ban too effect several months after it was passed SO being the good capitalists that they were the gun manufactureres worked 24 hours a day and cranked out recievers with serial numbers. prior to the ban there were 100k F/As. the day the ban took effect there were more than 500k on paper. the BATF reviewed them physically....before allowing any to be transfered. they disallowed all but 150k additional. companies had long pipes with numbers stamped on them for sten receivers. so that is how you get the current number of 250k.
i know this is long winded. prior to the ban, you could purchase the parts kit for whatever you liked....mp44s, mg 42s, m60s, stens, m16s, etc. you could then just purchase the receiver from the class 2 manufacterer and go through the process above. they also made auto sears for the m16 and registered trigger units...all had papers AND are considered in that 250K number. after the ban. you could buy what is available....complete guns, receivers or trigger units only ( if you can find them ) but the price also jumped to $500 ( still only one time ). you also agree to certain provisos like they can demand to inspect your firearm at any time of the day or night...and you must notify authorities if you plan the transport the weapon out of your area and only YOU are permitted access to these weapons.
so he can purchase a registered ( manufactured prior to 1986) auto sear or trigger assembly if they are available.
damn i need a nap now....


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## javlin (Feb 13, 2011)

I thought I heard the price had jumped  cause I have a Semi -Thompson a West Hurley version I like to get done to a SBR version  but what you said sums it up.Now do you remember or know? I think the Law goes all the parts for a FA cannot be under one roof or let's say location/address?


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## GrauGeist (Feb 13, 2011)

Well, in my opinion (such as it is), there is no real reason for a person to own a f/a weapon unless it is a special interest item, such as a WWI, WWII or prohibition era weapon (just for example). I know that sounds kind of narrow-minded, but for engaging an enemy or a target, why hose it down when all it takes is one shot (typically)?
Of course, this applies to "shouldered" weapons; not to weapons such as the M2 .50/M1919A6 .30, GAU-8/A, MK15 Phalanx and similiar ordinance, which rate +10 in the badass (and incredibly useful) category...

As far as my Umarex goes, it looks VERY similiar to the AR15/M4, but the internals are completely different. I had familiarized myself with it, but went and took a much closer look after this morning's discussion. Now I'm not a gunsmith, I'll leave that fine art to the experts, but it looks to me like it would take WAY too much work (time money) to try to modify it to be anything other than a .22 LR r/f setup. A person would do better to actually go out and purchase a c/f rifle in thier desired caliber, if that's what they are looking for unless they are really up for a challenge. In my case, I rarely modify any of my weapons, unless it's for sighting, grips or the stock...and even those situations are few and far between.

Anyway, I grabbed a couple shots to give you a good idea of what's going on under the hood of a Umarex.

Both photos show the Umarex M4 on the left and an actual Colt AR15A2 on the right. You can see clearly how the receiver feed of the Umarex are designed to be for a .22 r/f only, and there is no way to swap out internals between the Umarex and a Colt c/f AR (or M4/AR15/M16 clone).


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## javlin (Feb 13, 2011)

Oh Yea the Umarex is totally different as well the make up of the metal involved being of lighter grade.My West hurley is a light receiver 1928 model and while I have a FA lower(from Russia) it would take a bout 5-8 hrs of work just to make it adapt plus other work on the upper.That being said as a light model she has an AL receiver and would never last long in a FA mode.


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## RabidAlien (Feb 13, 2011)

My wife and I had a kiddo-free day on Saturday, courtesy of wife's grandparents, so after a cheesy movie (Gnomeo and Juliet....meh), we ran some errands and found ourselves in the general vicinity of BassPro Outdoor Shop. So, of course, I talked her into wandering in and looking (again). We talked to the handgun guys, and after holding a couple of handguns, we've finally settled on the Springfield XD series as our next purchase. She likes the 9mm, it fits her hand nicely, whereas I was looking more along the lines of a .38, .40 or .45. Not really something that you'd carry concealed, but more than enough for stashing in the purse or on the hip, or leave in the glovebox just in case. I'll get her out to the range here shortly, there's a range in Dallas that has the XD series for rent, so we can send a few rounds downrange and see how we like the feel. Does anybody have one of these, or have ever shot one? We liked the grip and weight, but firing one may be a whole 'nudder story. How about reliability? I know the Springfield name, and would be able to purchase one blind (not having tested one prior) without too much worry, but other folks' personal testimonies do help that decision-making process a lot!


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## javlin (Feb 13, 2011)

I shot a friend of mines XD with the shorter barrel?It was OK I have a decent size hand but did not car to much for the grips he had!The 4" barrel is what he had on his and I was not impressed with the accuracy wereas my 1911(5") was more accurate even when he shot mine for the first time.My friend loved his XD though and is now serving over in Afghanstan.


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## bobbysocks (Feb 13, 2011)

javlin said:


> I thought I heard the price had jumped  cause I have a Semi -Thompson a West Hurley version I like to get done to a SBR version  but what you said sums it up.Now do you remember or know? *I think the Law goes all the parts for a FA cannot be under one roof or let's say location/address*?



that is not true. as a matter of fact you must have the gun or registered parts where only you have access to them. so you would need a gun safe where you only have the combo or key. others may be able to shoot them with you present but they must not be able to get to them. i do not know if or what can be bought for your weapon. the original thompsons mgs fired from an open bolt IIRC....so you would need basically a total lower receiver or registered parts plus a bolt carrier configured for open bolt. would sure be a jack hammer to fire!

there is no real reason for someone to own one...you are right. in most instances a semi or single shot would suffice. MGs have limited application but when in those arenas they are the $#!T. i also dont have a reason for a car that can go over 70 mph, a televison over 35 inch, or a reason to own 1/3 of the crap i do. but there is nothing like wringing out a porche on the open road, lighting up the tires on a muscle car, spinning an airplane for the first time, or or running through a belt on a mg. you are just gonna want to do it again! if you have the cash and are willing to jump through the hoops you can do just about anything in thie country...as long as you buy the right permit/ pay the right tax.


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## GrauGeist (Feb 13, 2011)

I'll agree with you on the "being available for a fee" idea, mostly because if something is easily available to the general public, it will eventually be misused in such numbers that lawmakers will put a lid on it (they're just looking for excuses to make new laws anyway).

Most cars can over-speed, true, but the cars that can travel at heinous speeds are inaccessible to all but the ones that want to pay for it and handle them (for the most part) responsibly. Same would go for the F/A shoulder weapons. I would hate to see them be available en-masse because you know how that would end up. The ones who are willing to pay for the right to own, are the ones who will handle them properly.

By the way, regarding that XD, I wasn't really impressed with it (shot both the .40 S&W - black phosphate over OD polymer and a .45 black phosphate over black polymer). The XD didn't fit my hand well and the trigger seemed a little stiff (maybe it's just me). I like the weight and feel of my 1911, but prefer my S&W 39-2 9mm for performance, weight feel...


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## RabidAlien (Feb 13, 2011)

Yeah, I plan on test-firing a couple of different makes/models before I pick one out. My wife's done a ton of research, though (she has more free time at work), and is set on the XD. We'll see after we fire a couple of rounds through it, though. She was also eyeballing a Ruger and a Glock.


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## tyrodtom (Feb 14, 2011)

I've shot my son-in-laws XD, 45acp, 5 in barrel. Didn't like it, didn't dislike it.

I guess i'm still stuck in the past, I look on weapons as mechanical art, plastic just doesn't make it for me.


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## bobbysocks (Feb 14, 2011)

it has to feel really good in your hand or you wont either be able to shoot it well or wont enjoy shooting it. that's what i told anyone who looked to buy a gun off of me. forget the price for the most part. everyone's hands are different and what may be comfortable for you may feel horrendous to me. you can do some adjusting by changing grips. despite my personal preferences for the firearms...i found s&w revolvers and colt ruger autos fit best for me. i love the h&k pistols but something about them didnt feel right.


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## RabidAlien (Feb 14, 2011)

Kewl, thanks for that Bobbysocks. I liked the feel of the grip on the XD, but with the trigger lock bolted on, I couldn't really get a good feel for how it fit my finger. I guess I've got bigger hands, or longer fingers, or something, but it felt like the shooting-part (lack of better term for the end of my index finger) rested naturally on the outside of the trigger guard, vs. trying to get in where the bolt was attached. That was the 9mm, though, the others looked larger, but the store was busy and we weren't looking to buy for me.


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## Torch (Feb 14, 2011)

For a plastic gun try an H&K P30/P30l,won't get much better than that.


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## RabidAlien (Feb 14, 2011)

Kewl, will put it on the list.


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## GrauGeist (Feb 14, 2011)

I've also heard word that the newer generation Taurus S/A pistols are good performers.

I haven't had the opportunity to try any, but the folks I've spoken to (including Taurus owners) give decent feedback on them.

Might not hurt to have a look, at least.


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## RabidAlien (Feb 14, 2011)

I'll scribble that on the mental posty-note, too. And then tell my wife, since I tend to misplace mental posty-notes.


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## bobbysocks (Feb 15, 2011)

Taurus has always put out a good product....unless they had troubles recently they are worth looking at.


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## Torch (Feb 15, 2011)

Taurus has been hit or miss, for the most part they have been good decent shooters, but they have had a history of stinkers also,I'd take the Tracker series of revolvers over their semi's.


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## RabidAlien (Feb 15, 2011)

Wife reminded me that the last guy we talked to at the shop said that the current line of Taurus' keep coming back in with cracked barrels. So we're steering away from that line. For now, anyway.


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## drgondog (Feb 16, 2011)

guys - have you ever contemplated that anything you post here re: stuff that you own becomes 'public'? 

personally, I am not enthusiastic about the unwelcome disclosure.. if there is ever a 'general pick-up' order issued I woul rather have the issuer not have a laundry list to work from based on internet souces.

based on what I have seen coming out of the UN, this may not be as unrealistic as you might think - depending on the constituency in the Senate.


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## CharlesBronson (Feb 16, 2011)

The M4 Colt /Umarex (here is sell under the name Walther) is really sweet, I made an alluminiun supressor for a cousin of mine and had the oportunity to fire, really pretty and accurate.



> personally, I am not enthusiastic about the unwelcome disclosure.. if there is ever a 'general pick-up' order issued I woul rather have the issuer not have a laundry list to work from based on internet souces.



Nothing wrong to show that you are armed and proud of it. Nothing is gained concealing the fact you/I are/am a law-abbiding gun owner.



> Taurus has been hit or miss, for the most part they have been good decent shooters, but they have had a history of stinkers also,I'd take the Tracker series of revolvers over their semi's.



Cough...if you want south american with good quality better buy bersa or Rexio...cough, sorry the advertising but is true.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwtTX2S-t-o_


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpjKUeMpsaA_


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## bobbysocks (Feb 16, 2011)

drgondog said:


> guys - have you ever contemplated that anything you post here re: stuff that you own becomes 'public'?
> 
> personally, I am not enthusiastic about the unwelcome disclosure.. if there is ever a 'general pick-up' order issued I woul rather have the issuer not have a laundry list to work from based on internet souces.
> 
> based on what I have seen coming out of the UN, this may not be as unrealistic as you might think - depending on the constituency in the Senate.



they ( big brother ) know everything i have from the records i surrendered when i gave up my license. if that day (pick up order) ever happens...by the time they get to me i would have hot wired a plane and be across atleast one border...


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## tyrodtom (Feb 16, 2011)

There are over 600,000,000 known firearms worldwide, over 200,000,000 known firearms just in the USA. And about 8,000,000 new ones made every year. 

I think everybody realizes the actual numbers would be a great deal higher than those that are known.

Can anyone even begin to imagine the amount of people and the size of the organization it would take to begin to take every gun in just the USA. 

Ain't gonna happen.


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## javlin (Feb 16, 2011)

tyrodtom said:


> There are over 600,000,000 known firearms worldwide, over 200,000,000 known firearms just in the USA. And about 8,000,000 new ones made every year.
> 
> I think everybody realizes the actual numbers would be a great deal higher than those that are known.
> 
> ...



Plus I have discussed with many many local Pd's officers around here who I am aquainted with through my work and they all support the 2nd Amendment. These same guys have stated if the word ever came down they would not follow to start the reposessoning of weapons out of fear!


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## GrauGeist (Feb 17, 2011)

It would be possible to disarm a large population.

If you try to take away thier firearms en-masse, you'd have open revolt...an ugly, nasty revolt...

But if you nibble away at the laws a little bit at a time and turn the public sentiment against ownership (as being bad, root of all evil, millions of children die every day because of them, etc etc), then you can easily do it...just takes time and patients. It's basically "victory by attrition"...

Well, pretty much like they're doing right now.


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## RabidAlien (Feb 17, 2011)

The problem with that method is that its going to take a VERY long time, simply because if you start toting out statistics like "million kids killed every day", some smartass is going to Google it and find that that's just not true. At which point, gun owners will dig in and it will be even harder to take them away. And the gov't can't even keep the guns out of criminal hands, they don't have the resources/manpower to try to work on the civilized crowd! Once its demonstrated that the bad guys no longer have guns, it'll be easier to get guns from the law-abiding portion. Not easy, just easier.


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## javlin (Feb 27, 2011)

I put the old girl back into military dress a more slender,sleeker and aggressive look over the Boyd stock plus a little lighter.I Easy Off the old finish,steel wool and applied some Red Mahogany stain.I still need to put some linseed oil to waterproof but that will happen over the course of the next week.Cheers


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## RabidAlien (Feb 27, 2011)

Dude!!! You even modified it to shoot arrows?  Seriously, looks really good! I wasn't aware they were still making M1's, till I saw some new ones in a gun shop yesterday, with the black composite stock and rubber padding and whatnot. Man, I'd love to shoot one of those, no matter what ammo it used!

BTW, nice lookin recurve there in the first two pics!


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## Florence (Feb 27, 2011)

Would give my left testicle to be able to have one like that in my locker. Bet she shoots as well as she looks.


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## javlin (Feb 27, 2011)

RabidAlien said:


> Dude!!! You even modified it to shoot arrows?  Seriously, looks really good! I wasn't aware they were still making M1's, till I saw some new ones in a gun shop yesterday, with the black composite stock and rubber padding and whatnot. Man, I'd love to shoot one of those, no matter what ammo it used!
> 
> BTW, nice lookin recurve there in the first two pics!



I would not get one with the synthetic stock .I do not know how rempant it was but back in the 90's there were some issues cracking and such.The recurve is an old Ben Pearson 35lb draw from about 1974/75 when I was a young little lad.the arrows need to be refeathered but I had those custome made to my draw and the weight of the draw.I am thinking of making laminate bows on the side just got to finish that one last work station in the shop.



Florence said:


> Would give my left testicle to be able to have one like that in my locker. Bet she shoots as well as she looks.



Florence that was one reasons she went back into the orginal stock.I did some work on the Boyds stock and I finally got her to pull down about a 2" group @100yds open sights but this stock with surplus ammo I could pull 1.25"-1.75" @100yds.This stock kinda let things float more if you know what I mean.Cheers


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## RabidAlien (Feb 27, 2011)

If I get an M1, I would prefer to get one manufactured in '42 or so, something with a pedigree that saw service overseas. Those, of course, aren't cheap. I was looking at a Winchester or Remington for just general target shooting, until I found out that they're still cranking out the M1's.


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## javlin (Feb 27, 2011)

Yeah I thought you might be talking about the new M1's by Springfield.it really did not click till I was out in the shop and I was thinking about the comment on the rd then I went "oh the M1's".The M1a has always been 7.62X51 now the Navy had an M1 was offically converted to the NATO rd and I had an opportunity to get one when I got my 56 M1 but passed.


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## GrauGeist (Feb 28, 2011)

Love the M1 .30 carbines...have a few and am trying to talk my Dad out of his (he won't give in and I won't give up...)

That red mahogony finish gives that rifle an overall look that is just outstanding!


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## drgondog (Mar 1, 2011)

javlin said:


> I put the old girl back into military dress a more slender,sleeker and aggressive look over the Boyd stock plus a little lighter.I Easy Off the old finish,steel wool and applied some Red Mahogany stain.I still need to put some linseed oil to waterproof but that will happen over the course of the next week.Cheers



Javlin - neither Linseed Oil nor any derivative (True Oil, Linspeed, etc) is waterproof. All of them are porous. If to want to waterproof it - due a spar varnish or epoxy finish, and dull it with 0000 steel wool if you want more of a flat finish.


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## Bucksnort101 (Mar 1, 2011)

I forget what I used on a M1 Garand I refinishe a few years ago. It was a concoction I read about on a shooting forum (Culvers Shooting Page, or jouster.com).
If I remember correctly it was 1/3 BLO (Boiled Linseed Oil), 1/3 Beeswax, and 1/3 Turpentine or Mineral Spirits. It's been several years ago, I remember melting the Beewax in an empty soup can then adding it to the BLO and Mineral Spirits/Turp. and then pouring it into a container and letting it set. Couple coats on the stock and a light rub with an old burlap sack and it looked pretty good. Plus you could always touch up spots that got nicked easily.
May not have been the most waterproof finish, but it was quick and easy to apply.
I'm sure you can still find the exact recipe over on that Culvers forum.


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## Glider (Mar 2, 2011)

I have to hand mine in on Thursday. As I cannot shoot in comps due to back problems then I do not have a reason to own a gun and therefore have to lose my licence as its up for renewal.
Such are the rules in the UK so I will donate them to the club so someone else can get the benefit of them.

Not a good day after 38 years of shooting and instructing


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## ToughOmbre (Mar 2, 2011)

RabidAlien said:


> If I get an M1, I would prefer to get one manufactured in '42 or so, something with a pedigree that saw service overseas. Those, of course, aren't cheap. I was looking at a Winchester or Remington for just general target shooting, until I found out that they're still cranking out the M1's.


 
RA, my Springfield Armory M1 is an April '43. However, after tracing the serial to see when it was manufactured, there's no real way to tell the history of the specific rifle past the manufacture date I don't think.

TO


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## Torch (Mar 2, 2011)

Sorry to hear that Glider,that sucks.


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## javlin (Mar 2, 2011)

drgondog said:


> Javlin - neither Linseed Oil nor any derivative (True Oil, Linspeed, etc) is waterproof. All of them are porous. If to want to waterproof it - due a spar varnish or epoxy finish, and dull it with 0000 steel wool if you want more of a flat finish.



Wrong terminology DG a sort of repellant might be more accurate water does bead some.Never can go the way of a varnish like the Russkies do .


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## bobbysocks (Mar 2, 2011)

Bucksnort101 said:


> I forget what I used on a M1 Garand I refinishe a few years ago. It was a concoction I read about on a shooting forum (Culvers Shooting Page, or jouster.com).
> If I remember correctly it was 1/3 BLO (Boiled Linseed Oil), 1/3 Beeswax, and 1/3 Turpentine or Mineral Spirits. It's been several years ago, I remember melting the Beewax in an empty soup can then adding it to the BLO and Mineral Spirits/Turp. and then pouring it into a container and letting it set. Couple coats on the stock and a light rub with an old burlap sack and it looked pretty good. Plus you could always touch up spots that got nicked easily.
> May not have been the most waterproof finish, but it was quick and easy to apply.
> I'm sure you can still find the exact recipe over on that Culvers forum.


 

That sounds like a recipe i read for waterproofing canvas to turn them into tarpaulins. if not its pretty darn close.


Glider, that really sucks. can you shoot smaller caliber or a different mode amd maybe swap that for another gun you can use? 22lr maybe...


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## GrauGeist (Mar 2, 2011)

Glider said:


> I have to hand mine in on Thursday. As I cannot shoot in comps due to back problems then I do not have a reason to own a gun and therefore have to lose my licence as its up for renewal.
> Such are the rules in the UK so I will donate them to the club so someone else can get the benefit of them.
> 
> Not a good day after 38 years of shooting and instructing


Is there a possibility that you can participate occasionally, just enough to remain qualified for ownership?

Either way, that has to be frustrating...sorry to hear that


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## Glider (Mar 2, 2011)

Not really, my back was damaged, so much so that they thought that I would have to wear a corset for the majority of the time. I have avoided that by pure luck and for obvious reasons am not going to push my luck.


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## RabidAlien (Mar 5, 2011)

Well, got to calling around this past week, and found a deal that we just couldn't pass up: $519 for both my wife's Springfield compact XD 9mm, and my Springfield XD 9mm (4-inch barrel). So we jumped on it today. And, while waiting for all the appropriate paperwork to go through, I got to wandering around....and ended up coming out with a 1913 Enfield (British .303, I'm assuming its an Enfield) for $300. Talked him down from $370! Got a 100-round box of 9mm, and went to break in the Springfields. Man, I like that gun....but man, I need more practice!


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## Glider (Mar 5, 2011)

If you were able to buy a 1913 Lee Enfield in good condition with the long range sights for $300 it was an absolute bargin. Over here the the mass produced WW1 version with the simple sights normally go for £350-£375. I admit to not knowing the prices in the USA but I think that you did well.


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## Airframes (Mar 6, 2011)

Sure did! Can't see properly, but it appears to possibly have the magazine cut-off, a fairly rare thing to find these days, although that didn't really start to appear until about the second year of WW1 on the SMLE.


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## RabidAlien (Mar 6, 2011)

I can take additional pics of any part you would like to see in more detail...lemme know what you want to take a gander at, and I'll get the pics for ya! The guy assured me it was put together with all original parts, too, not rebuilt with modern stuff. It was sitting right next to another Enfield (for about $20 more) that was stamped "1945"....thought about that one, for a minute, since it was in immaculate condition and included the original sling, but being in perfect condition, I figured it would have been issued to a Home Guard, not put into front-line circulation. Nothing against the Home Guard, I just prefer pieces that have seen active duty.

And the Springfield fires like a champ! My wife's groupings are frikkin _still _tighter than mine!


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## Airframes (Mar 6, 2011)

Wouldn't mind seeing a pic of the top of the bolt housing/chamber - the complete area of the bolt would be fine. If the other Enfield was stamped 1945, it sounds more like an Enfield No4, and would have the exposed muzzle with the 'U' shaped foresight protector blade, with the rear sight being either a simple 'flip over' peep site, or a graduated, screw-adjusted, folding sight, graduated out to 1,300 yards. When folded flat, there would be a ring 'peep' site, for ranges out to 300 yards, known as the 'Battle site'. These weapons were front-line issue, not given to Home Guard, who would normally have been issued Springfield P14s, as would other second-line units. The No.4 replaced the SMLE from late 1941, in general service, and was still the basic infantry weapon of British Forces until 1958, when the L1A1 SLR (FN FAL design) was introduced.


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## RabidAlien (Mar 6, 2011)

Sweet. Pictures coming shortly! Gotta get the ever-inquisitive-and-oh-so-helpful toddler distracted. Elsewhere.


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## RabidAlien (Mar 6, 2011)

Okay, got some more pics for ya. Sorry 'bout the wait, got hit with some honey-doos. And, of course, my little helper had to help. I tried to get shots of all of the markings, and from different angles, but the lighting wasn't the best, so I apologize for the bad contrast on some of these. One question, though...the little round port on the buttplate...was that where they stuck cleaning rags/wires, or was that where one stashed cigarettes or the "Alamo" ("you aint' takin me alive!") bullet?


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## Airframes (Mar 6, 2011)

First things first - what a gorgeous little girl!
OK, to business. first off, that is one beaut weapon! The finish is superb. On the right (looking from the butt) of the receiver, that ring bracket is the mount for the magazine cut-off, either missing from, or not fitted to this example, This bit of kit allowed a fully loaded magazine (10 rounds) to be retained, and a further round to be chambered, by the bolt, for immediate use on 'Advance to contact' - in other words, retaining full load, but with one extra, when going 'over the top', or into immediate contact.
At the extreme rear of the bolt, the vertical, flat ribbed part is the striker 'grip' of the firing pin which, as you know, runs through the bolt itself, and shows the weapon's 'Registered Number' - serial number - which should be the same as all the other stamped numbers on the receiver, bolt, butt etc. These weapons were literally hand-built, and could be made with 3 different butt-stock lengths, to accommodate the individual.
On top of the receiver, within the bolt housing, you'll notice a vertical slot. This is the 'Bridge Charger Guide', which was designed to accept a 'charger' ( a clip) of five rounds. The chargers were pressed down the guide, immediately loading five rounds into the magazine (which was only removed for cleaning, remaining on the weapon in normal use), allowing very rapid loading of 5 or 10 rounds, with the facility, if needed, of loading individual rounds by feeding independently into the mag. The charger, or clip, was then free and ejected. (normal issue was in chargers of 5 rounds, designed for rapid loading.)
This system, together with the precisely machined bolt and breech assembly, made the Enfield, and it's successors, the fastest. smoothest, bolt-action rifle in the World, a 'title' which has yet to be surpassed.
The 'tunnel' in the brass butt plate is known as the 'Butt trap', and held a cylindrical, brass oil bottle, plus a 'pull through' cord and weight, intended for basic cleaning in the field. The full cleaning kit was carried by the soldier in the front, left pouch of his webbing belt order.
You have a fine example of the gunsmith's craft there RA, a real beaut, and it should be able to put each round within half an inch at 1,000 yards, every time.
Nice one mate!


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## RabidAlien (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks for the info, AF! So, the clip normally stayed on the gun, and the rounds were loaded from the top, down into the clip? I picture this happening like with Vassily Zeitzev at the beginning of "Enemy at the Gates", where he had the strip of rounds, pushed them down into the gun, then pulled out the little strip that was holding them all together....something similar to that?

The other Enfield that they had was, if you can believe it, in much better shape, looking like it was just unpacked from the manufacturer's shipping straw (or whatever was used for packing). This one, while looking a lot more beat-up and run through the mill, just screamed "character" to me. Its got stories to tell, if you know what I mean (most of the time, even I don't!). I'm very proud to own it, and now I know a lot more about it! Thanks for the help, bro!


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## Airframes (Mar 6, 2011)

No probs mate, and yes, the charger (the clip of 5 rounds) literally fell off the weapon when the rounds were pressed down into the magazine (what you have called the clip!). The basic design (of the weapon) was a development from the older, 'long' rifles of the 1800s, which culminated in a design from Lee-Metford. Your weapon was the final, refined version, shorter than previous rifles, but optimised for best trajectory and muzzle velocity, and built at the Royal British Small Arms (BSA) works at Enfield, in Middlesex, England, from the Lee design, which gave it the title SMLE = Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield. 
By WW2, the need for a simplified, less expensive, quicker to mass produce weapon, was met by the Lee Enfield Number 4, mentioned earlier, which was basically the same weapon, but with a simplified, but no less efficient bolt-action, a weapon which is still used as a sniper rifle, and, in civilian guise, as a match rifle, known (depending on use) as the Savage, or Enforcer, normally chambered for 7.62mm NATO these days.
If you want more info, just PM me and let me know what you'd like to find out.
Cheers,
Terry.


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## RabidAlien (Mar 6, 2011)

Composing PM now!


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## tyrodtom (Mar 6, 2011)

Airframes surely you meant 1/2 inch of point of aim at 100 yards, not 1000 yards ?
In other words a 1 inch group.

When I get a 1 inch group at 100 yards with my Enfield i'll be a happy man.


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## RabidAlien (Mar 6, 2011)

One final question about the rifle, there are two brass (?) holes on the top, right behind the rear sights. Are these for mounting a scope? They seem rather small to be holding a scope in place, to me. Sorry about the quality, my camera was already put up, so I used the cellphone.


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## Airframes (Mar 7, 2011)

They appear to be a later addition, and are possibly for mounting a rail to accept a 'scope mount, although I agree they seem rather shallow. The rail would be relatively short, and with a 'V' notch on either side, onto which the main mount, incorporating the ring brackets for the 'scope would slide.
Edit: Sorry Tierod, just noticed your post. No reason why a one inch grouping at 100 yards shouldn't be achievable, that used to be the norm for qualifying at 300 yards. OK, I agree that at 1,000 yards it's pushing things a bit, but still possible.


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## tyrodtom (Mar 7, 2011)

I doubt that anybody would mount a scope on wood, or even if those brass screws went through to the barrel underneath, it still wouldn't a good idea to mount the scope with wood under it. The wood slightly contracting and expanding from changing moisture content would move the scope around.

I do wonder what they are for .


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## javlin (Mar 7, 2011)

tyrodtom said:


> I doubt that anybody would mount a scope on wood, or even if those brass screws went through to the barrel underneath, it still wouldn't a good idea to mount the scope with wood under it. The wood slightly contracting and expanding from changing moisture content would move the scope around.
> 
> I do wonder what they are for .


 
Have to agree all scopes I have seen are mounted to the receiver whether civilian or military application.


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## Airframes (Mar 7, 2011)

I agree too. On the Lee Enfield No.4T, the scope mount was on the receiver and/or Bridge Charger Guide. Maybe it was a failed attempt? At first, I thought they might have been gas relief ports, but they wouldn't be brass, and there'd only be one, normally on the side, front of the receiver.


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## Torch (Mar 7, 2011)

i agree not the place to mount a scope,an attempt at a scout scope mount maybe?


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## Glider (Mar 7, 2011)

WW1 Lee Enfield sniper rifles had the mount on the left of the gun not along the centre line so I don't think it was for a telescopic sight. That said some officers had the rifles adjusted at their own cost by individual gunsmiths but that would be a very rare example.


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## tyrodtom (Mar 7, 2011)

Plus a scope mounted there ( top center ) would interfere with using the charger clips to reload.


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## geneh (Mar 8, 2011)

My new (to me) 1943 M-1 Garand.


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## Bucksnort101 (Mar 8, 2011)

Nice looking Garand. I've got a 1943 made M1 Garand Receiver at home that I want to get matching parts for, but that could be expensive. Have you looked into dating any other parts on the rifle? Most have a mix-match of parts from numerous arsenal, and public rebuilds.
Wood looks to be in pretty good shape from the picture. Any markings/cartouches on the other side?

Congrats.


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## javlin (Mar 8, 2011)

Yea Nice looking rifle.I think(?) the rear site is the later it's not the lock bar type.I paid $75 for a parade rifle just for that site to pop it on my M1a but that is a nice looking rig and the sling looks to the period from wear possibily.Cheers


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## bobbysocks (Mar 9, 2011)

Bucksnort101 said:


> Nice looking Garand. I've got a 1943 made M1 Garand Receiver at home that I want to get matching parts for, but that could be expensive. Have you looked into dating any other parts on the rifle? Most have a mix-match of parts from numerous arsenal, and public rebuilds.
> Wood looks to be in pretty good shape from the picture. Any markings/cartouches on the other side?
> 
> Congrats.


 
finding matching parts for your receiver is going to be darn near impossible. parts were scattered to the 4 winds. in the early 80s people found a good deals on bare receivers or barrelled actions ( minus the bolt carrier ) and built guns up from there. in the mid to late 80s a lot of m-1 garand and carbine lend/lease stuff came back home from central and south americas.... and also some from asia i think. most of these were in sad to decent shape. companies scavanged what good parts there were from the lot and pieced guns together. they threw the whole barrelled receiver in a phospate vat. so they had the coating of an m16 and not the nice parkerized finish they were born with. i still sold a truckload of these things...so did k-mart, woolworth, and a couple other mass merchandizers. i sold them for $165 for regular and $199 for select ( hand picked best of the lot ). the same thing happened when they found a warehouse full of luger and p-38 parts in germany. the market was flooded cheap mismatch guns. ahhh the good old days!


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## RabidAlien (Mar 9, 2011)

Still on the topic of guns....I was looking for the "four rules of firearms" (thinking about at least printing them out, if not burning/etching/carving them into a plaque somehow), and ran across Jeff Cooper's Wiki page. At the bottom were a lot of quotes of his, of which I've read about 1/3 (saving the rest for tomorrow...been a long day and bed is calling). But they're frikkin awesome! So, without further ado, some quotes (mods, if this would be better off in the "Jokes/Quotes" thread, please move it for me!):

* We are steadily asked about the age at which to teach young people to shoot. The answer to this obviously depends upon the particular individual; not only his physical maturity but his desire. Apart from these considerations, however, I think it important to understand that it is the duty of the father to teach the son to shoot. Before the young man leaves home, there are certain things he should know and certain skills he should acquire, apart from any state-sponsored activity. Certainly the youngster should be taught to swim, strongly and safely, at distance. And young people of either sex should be taught to drive a motor vehicle, and if at all possible, how to fly a light airplane. I believe a youngster should be taught the rudiments of hand-to-hand combat, unarmed, together with basic survival skills. The list is long, but it is a parent's duty to make sure that the child does not go forth into the world helpless in the face of its perils. Shooting, of course, is our business, and shooting should not be left up to the state.

* It is interesting to hear certain kinds of people insist that the citizen cannot fight the government. This would have been news to the men of Lexington and Concord, as well as the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan. The citizen most certainly can fight the government, and usually wins when he tries. Organized national armies are useful primarily for fighting against other organized national armies. When they try to fight against the people, they find themselves at a very serious disadvantage. If you will just look around at the state of the world today, you will see that the guerillero has the upper hand. Irregulars usually defeat regulars, providing they have the will. Such fighting is horrible to contemplate, but will continue to dominate brute strength.

* It has never been clear to me why increased magazine capacity in a defensive pistol is particularly choice. The bigger the magazine the bigger the gun, and the bigger the gun the harder it is to get hold of for people with small hands. And what, pray, does one need all those rounds for? How many lethal antagonists do you think you are going to be able to handle? Once when Bruce Nelson was asked by a suspect if the thirteen-round magazine in the P35 was not a big advantage, Bruce's answer was, "Well, yes, if you plan to miss a lot." The highest score I know of at this time achieved by one man against a group of armed adversaries was recorded in (of all places) the Ivory Coast! There, some years ago, a graduate student of mine laid out five goblins, with four dead and one totaled for the hospital. Of course there is the episode of Alvin York and his eight, but there is some dispute about that tale. (If you read it over very carefully you will see what I mean.) Be that as it may, I see no real need for a double column magazine. It is all the rage, of course, and like dual air bags, it is a popular current sales gimmick.

* One cannot legislate the maniacs off the street... these maniacs can only be shut down by an armed citizenry. Indeed bad things can happen in nations where the citizenry is armed, but not as bad as those which seem to be threatening our disarmed citizenry in this country at this time.

* Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.

* The police cannot protect the citizen at this stage of our development, and they cannot even protect themselves in many cases. It is up to the private citizen to protect himself and his family, and this is not only acceptable, but mandatory.

* The will to survive is not as important as the will to prevail... the answer to criminal aggression is retaliation.

* Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands.

* All the people constitute the militia — according to the Founding Fathers. Therefore every able-bodied man has a duty under the Constitution to become part of the "well-regulated" militia, specifically to understand and perform well with the individual weapon currently issued to the regular establishment. . . . Thus one who has not qualified himself with the M16 may not be considered to be a responsible citizen.

* Already a couple of the faithful have sent in checks for a foundation memorial to the innocents who perished at the hands of the ninja at Waco. ... I have been criticized by referring to our federal masked men as "ninja" … Let us reflect upon the fact that a man who covers his face shows reason to be ashamed of what he is doing. A man who takes it upon himself to shed blood while concealing his identity is a revolting perversion of the warrior ethic. It has long been my conviction that a masked man with a gun is a target. I see no reason to change that view.

* One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that ‘violence begets violence.’ I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure—and in some cases I have—that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy. – Cooper vs. Terrorism

* The purpose of the pistol is to stop a fight that somebody else has started, almost always at very short range.

* Bushido is all very well in its way, but it is no match for a .30-06.

* A free man must not be told how to think, either by the government or by social activists. He may certainly be shown the right way, but he must not accept being forced into it.

* The conclusions seem inescapable that in certain circles a tendency has arisen to fear people who fear government. Government, as the Father of Our Country put it so well, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. People who understand history, especially the history of government, do well to fear it. For a people to express openly their fear of those of us who are afraid of tyranny is alarming. Fear of the state is in no sense subversive. It is, to the contrary, the healthiest political philosophy for a free people. – Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, vol. 4, no. 16, December, 1996

* Hoplophobia is a mental disturbance characterized by irrational aversion to weapons, as opposed to justified apprehension about those who may wield them. – To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth

* The media insist that crime is the major concern of the American public today. In this connection they generally push the point that a disarmed society would be a crime-free society. They will not accept the truth that if you take all the guns off the street you still will have a crime problem, whereas if you take the criminals off the street you cannot have a gun problem.

* That is why our masters in Washington are so anxious to disarm us. They are not afraid of criminals. They are afraid of a populace which cannot be subdued by tyrants. – Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, Vol. 2, No. 5, May 1994

* The 1911 pistol remains the service pistol of choice in the eyes of those who understand the problem. Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair. - Guns Ammo magazine, January 2002


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## Glider (Mar 12, 2011)

tyrodtom said:


> Plus a scope mounted there ( top center ) would interfere with using the charger clips to reload.


 
Interestingly no in the end it wouldn't. The scope was mounted on the left of the rifle to avoid interfering with the charger clips just as you say. However, the sight was designed and built with a quick spring loaded mount so the sight could be removed in a second and be used as a standard rifle. If a sniper needed more than 10 rounds to hit the target then he is in the wrong job.


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## tyrodtom (Mar 12, 2011)

I was talking about the picture with the two brass screws, that would place the scope directly over the charger clip slot.

The Enfield has a detachable clip, but you can only reload it by hand. Because the .303 is a rimmed cartridge, you have to be very careful loading the magazine, you have to be certain the rim on each round is forward of the rim of the round below it. If you do one wrong, that round will jam as you try to load it in the chamber. The charger clip inserted in the slot will load it right and fast, there is no adapter i'm aware of that enable you to load the clip direct into the mag. Only one magazine was issued with the rifle.

Even snipers have to reload .


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## RabidAlien (Mar 23, 2011)

Trying my hand at some basic carpentry/woodworking this past weekend. Haven't really done a solid woodworking project since high-school woodshop class (aced it!), other than cutting 2x4's and such for honeydoo stuff around the house. The extent of my woodworking tools: tablesaw, small electric hand-sander (Black-n-Decker "Mouse"), jigsaw, and Dremel. So it probably still looks like something some kid did in middle-school shop class, but it'll hold my rifles up off the floor and away from prying kiddo fingers. Plus give me a spot to put our ear protectors and my shooting glasses. Still have one light sanding to do, and a last coat of stain/varnish, some felt padding, and it'll go up on the wall this weekend.

Top: (1943) Mosin-Nagant 91/30
Middle: (1913) Enfield
Bottom: (1960-something) JC Higgins single barrel .20 shotgun


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## javlin (Mar 26, 2011)

That looks like it will work there RA  Shot the 91/30 yet?Cheers


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## RabidAlien (Mar 27, 2011)

Not yet....hopefully will get to at next month's shooting outing. There's a nice outdoor range about 30 minutes from here that I've been wanting to try.


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## RabidAlien (Apr 19, 2011)

Went out and shot the 91/30 Saturday, man that was nice! Question, though...after shooting, is it a good practice to break down the bolt and clean that sucker EVERY time, or just on occasion (whilst cleaning the barrel after every shoot, of course)? That thing is a booger to get back together, especially with freshly-oiled hands/parts!


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## javlin (Apr 19, 2011)

Not really RA I mean think about how it was orginally used?It had probably had 100's of rounds shot through it before it got cleaned.Now if you are using surplus/corrosive ammo?definitly hit the barrel pretty quick.I go on my M1a 200 rds before a real serious cleaning.


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## RabidAlien (Apr 19, 2011)

Yeah, I figured it was one of those parts that was cleaned by the armorer whenever a piece was picked up from the battlefield mud next to some poor guy's body, or after some guy had a misfire after firing a thousand rounds through it and he swapped it for another one. I'll be more inclined to shoot it knowing I don't have to break that thing down so often.


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## woody (May 15, 2011)

here you go guys 1st pic smith&wesson 9mm and Rock island armory 1911 45 acp with 14 round magazine also 8 round. 2nd pic stag arms left handed AR-15, bushnel red dot scope,misculek compinsator and other add ons.


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## RabidAlien (May 15, 2011)

You shoot lefty too? Sweet.


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## rochie (May 16, 2011)

nice, the only thing i've got is my CASA CFX .22 air rifle !!!
though it is a tad more difficult owning guns over here !


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## RabidAlien (May 16, 2011)

Like the scope! I'm a big sucker for crosshairs, though...much prefer them to iron-sights.


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## vikingBerserker (May 16, 2011)

woody said:


> 2nd pic stag arms left handed AR-15, bushnel red dot scope,misculek compinsator and other add ons.


 
What exactly makes is left handed, the side the bolt is on?


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## javlin (May 16, 2011)

RabidAlien said:


> Like the scope! I'm a big sucker for crosshairs, though...much prefer them to iron-sights.



I tell you what RA when I am shooting alot I can put down a group better at a 100-150 yds than alot of the novice hunters with there high dollar scopes  I have even had the aforemention ask "how do you that?" "Practice".I find target acquistion much faster on iron sites granted a scope helps one on IDing the target if partially covered.Then I would never shoot at something unless I knew 100% what it was.Karl nice rig infact I just pulled out my Crossman pump 22 tonight and shot a bucket in the back yard went to see if I hit it and it was leaking the Wife's water for some plant thing aaarrrrgh .I weighed the pellet Daisy pointed pellets 16g at roughly 750fps not bad.


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## bobbysocks (May 17, 2011)

vikingBerserker said:


> What exactly makes is left handed, the side the bolt is on?


 
usually the side the ejection port and and safety are on. safeties can be ambidexterous but you dont want hot gas and smoke in your face. the bolt handle will be on the other side as well...providing its not like the AR16/m16/m4 where its centered and pulled straight back....hmmm is the T handle release on the opposite side??


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## Airframes (May 18, 2011)

Bolt assist is also on the left side.


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## vikingBerserker (May 18, 2011)

Thanks for the education fellas!


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## mikewint (Oct 28, 2011)

Mentioned the Arkansas gun show in an earlier post. this is the H&K MP5 I bought with the green laser sight. The second is my Bushmaster M4A3 carbine. Looking into some sights for it but having a tough time finding something that will work with my almost blind right eye. Tried a laser but they don't show up very well at 100yds


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## RabidAlien (Oct 28, 2011)

Nice!  Have you thought about shooting it lefty? I'm right handed, but left-eye dominant (probably due to starting off left-handed, but being forced to write right-handed early as a kid because "normal people" write that way), so I tend to shoot handguns right-handed, but rifles left-handed. This can be done with any rifle, just keep in mind escaping brass is hot, and usually likes to find the crook of your right arm just behind the elbow.


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## mikewint (Oct 29, 2011)

Tried it RA but I am a righty on everything. It feels VERY clumsy to try to do it lefty. I can't make out the front sight from the U-shaped guards around it so we tried a pure white 25yd target with fluorescent red bullseyes. I could just see the white target but not the bullseyes. with both eyes open I see only the gun and target but nothing through the bad eye. That's why I put a green laser on the H&K once sighted in I knocked out the center everytime


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## RabidAlien (Oct 29, 2011)

Sweet. Whatever works for you, bro! I've tried shooting rifles right-handed, but can't hit jack. I think I put a few rounds in someone else's target! So shooting lefty with rifles has always worked for me. Now, all I need is the PU scope for my Mosin...


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## bobbysocks (Oct 30, 2011)

mike try an Armson OEG ( occular eye gunsite ). it is a trijicon ( nuke ) powered dot site that you keep both eyes open with. I have one on my mp5 and M11. when you look into the site its black with a bright red dot...but whe you look down the barrel with both eyes open you see the dot on the target. it works in ALL light situations...and trijicon battery lasts over 10 years ( mine are still good and i bout them in the 90s ). it was a gunsite originally devised but the SADF and is practically indestructable. BUT it will individualize the gun to you...everyones occular vision is different. however, IIRC...the model for the ARs fits in the "U" shaped groove in the carrying handle and has a see through hole so standard sites are still available. once you get used to it you can aquire your target extremely fast...snap shoot. i love them....

<B>Armson O.E.G. Sights


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## mikewint (Oct 30, 2011)

Bobby, thanks. According to their web site the battery tritium types are no longer available and current models use available light. Wonder if they still perform well under low light conditions. Going to look into them. If they have a dealer network I'd like to try one first. My left eye will see the target but I wonder if I have enough vision in my right to see the red dot


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## bobbysocks (Oct 31, 2011)

that's a good question....if they have contact info you might shoot them an email or talk to a tech. the old ones like i have were pretty bright during the day and paled down at night perfectly. you may have to hit another gun show to find one to play with...or see if they will give you a money back guarentee if you arent 100% satisfied.


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## Matt308 (Nov 6, 2011)

Mike, try a holographic sight of any type (Trijicon prefereably). These sights are battery powered (AA, N or CR2?) and they put the reticle in the same plane as the target. Not cheap, but the Trijicon's are MilSpec and throw no light forward. Makes for one hell of a close quarter battle sight. The batteries last for a loooooonnng time and have auto shutoff so morons like me don't blow thru batteries. Fully adjustable for windage/elevation, brightness, ON settings (constant and timed, if I recall correctly).


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## Matt308 (Nov 6, 2011)

RabidAlien said:


> One final question about the rifle, there are two brass (?) holes on the top, right behind the rear sights. Are these for mounting a scope? They seem rather small to be holding a scope in place, to me. Sorry about the quality, my camera was already put up, so I used the cellphone.
> 
> View attachment 162199



I'm too lazy to go look at mine, but suspect they are brass rivets connecting to a heat shield underneath the wood. Sorry I'm coming so late on this subject, but was only just now reading back through the thread.


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## mikewint (Nov 6, 2011)

Matt, thanks, looked at those but the PRICE!!!. Some low power 2X - 4X scopes with a lighted crosshairs and a long eye relief help though it is difficult for me to see the point where the crosshairs meet. The eotech and aimpoint are also pricey but work OK except seeing the dot is problamatical at times. Sightmark has a holo sight for about $100 with a integrated laser but it is red.think I'm going to mount a low power scope (NcStar has some reasonable tach-scopes with 42 50mm objectives) with a green laser and a tach-light for low light conditions. May just have to learn to shoot lefty


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## GrauGeist (Nov 6, 2011)

Along the lines of the Trijicon would be the Aimpoint optic.

They make them for Military, LEO, hunters and sportshooters with a broad range of applications/features. They tend to be a bit pricey, not sure how thier prices compare to Trijicons, though.


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## mikewint (Nov 6, 2011)

Grau, about 1/2. The Tris go for around $1,000 and the aims about $500. The Tri pictured is $1400
Second is the Aimpoint Compm3: $569


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## RabidAlien (Nov 6, 2011)

Matt308 said:


> I'm too lazy to go look at mine, but suspect they are brass rivets connecting to a heat shield underneath the wood. Sorry I'm coming so late on this subject, but was only just now reading back through the thread.



Kewl, that would make sense. As they say, better late than never!


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## mikewint (Nov 9, 2011)

FYI, I have settled on this scope green laser combo. the scope is 2.5 - 10 power with a lighted reticle either green or red. The laser is green and 5mW they say good for 100yds. The laser is on a quick release lever so easy on off and the eye relief is up to 4.75 inches. All for $150. So if it does not work very well i'm not out big bucks


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## Matt308 (Nov 9, 2011)

Fun stuff.


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## mikewint (Nov 9, 2011)

and cheap compared to aimpoint and ecotech sights and the AR isn't a long range target rifle to begin with. If I can still get close to a bulls-eye at 100yds I'm happy


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## bobbysocks (Nov 9, 2011)

if it helps you hit the target that is all that counts.. let us know how it works out for you. i have an old AR i might want to put one on.


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## mikewint (Nov 9, 2011)

Just ordered it on line so maybe two weeks or so. Tried a low power scope at a local gun shop. It helped me see the target but I could not also see the crosshairs. I'm hoping the lighted reticle will make it more visable with the laser for close targets. Going to try setting the sight for 100yds and the laser for 50yds


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## RabidAlien (Nov 9, 2011)

LOL Did you get a matching purse and shoes?


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## mikewint (Nov 9, 2011)

nope but did get 1000 rounds of Federal .223 FMJ for $275 from Gander Mountain of all places


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## GrauGeist (Nov 9, 2011)

I have a variety of optics, but prefer to use the good ol' fashioned iron sights and can still hold a fairly tight group on all my rifles at various ranges


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## RabidAlien (Nov 9, 2011)

mikewint said:


> nope but did get 1000 rounds of Federal .223 FMJ for $275 from Gander Mountain of all places


 Well, accessories are accessories...those'll do!


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## mikewint (Nov 10, 2011)

That's all I ever used in the "Good-old-days" and I earned my Marksman Badge but now I cannot see the front sight at all. Been looking at some replacement front sights that include a light-bar that puts a glowing dot at the tip of the sight. unfortunately they will not work in dim light or at night and don't know if I can even see that. Very frustrating


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## GrauGeist (Nov 10, 2011)

I hear ya' Mike, my eyesight is far from what it used to be :/

I go out as much as possible to try and keep the ol' eyeballs dialed in...this getting old thing is for the birds!


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## mikewint (Nov 10, 2011)

You can say that again brother, I just about get my S*it together and it starts to fall apart


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## mikewint (Dec 5, 2011)

After quite a bit of back ordering the green laser plus scope has arrived along with an 850 lumen tach-light.
And one other goodie


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## bobbysocks (Dec 5, 2011)

looks like the varmint cong in your area are going to be in a world of hurt!!


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## mikewint (Dec 5, 2011)

need to work on zeroing the sights next with actual rounds but it is laser bore sighted to 100yds


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## bobbysocks (Dec 5, 2011)

now see!! if you had bought the silencer you could have done that from your back deck without getting the neighbors all bent out of shape...


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## mikewint (Dec 5, 2011)

Bobby, it's a COMPENSATOR. Picked up this German 1911 which came with a factory compensator been shooting off the deck for weeks, the neighbor thought it was a pellet gun


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## RabidAlien (Dec 5, 2011)




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## vikingBerserker (Dec 5, 2011)

Man, you must have some serious varmints if you need a fixed bayonet!


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## javlin (Dec 5, 2011)

James..James Bond.....Love that 1911 rig Mike kewl!The other is coming along pretty good the AR platform has just never been my cup of tea.If I did get one it would have to be the AR-10 for I like the heavier bullet and I have about 3K rds right now I have reloaded in .308.All in all I have in the neighborhood of 6K +/- rds built in various calipers with maybe a 1000 cases looking to mozy thier way into the assembly line.


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## mikewint (Dec 5, 2011)

the 5.56 round is light and easily deflected but I picked up 2,000 rounds of Hornady HP rounds at $20 per 100 rounds from Bass Pro. With 30 round mags that's still a lot of lead down range.
I also picked up a short (16in) auto shotgun with 3 different chokes and Wal-mart had a sale on shotgun ammo $18 for 100 rounds. I picked up 500 shells 3in with #3 buck


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## ToughOmbre (Dec 21, 2011)

PEOPLE ASK WHY? 

Why Carry a Gun? 

My old grandpa said to me 'Son, there comes a time in every man's life when he stops bustin' knuckles and starts bustin' caps and usually it's when he becomes too old to take an ass whoopin.'

I don't carry a gun to kill people.
I carry a gun to keep from being killed.

I don't carry a gun to scare people.
I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.

I don't carry a gun because I'm paranoid.
I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world. 

I don't carry a gun because I'm evil.
I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world. 

I don't carry a gun because I hate the government.
I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government. 

I don't carry a gun because I'm angry.
I carry a gun so that I don't have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared. 

I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone.
I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon. 

I don't carry a gun because I'm a cowboy.
I carry a gun because, when I die and go to heaven, I want to be a cowboy. 

I don't carry a gun to make me feel like a man.
I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love. 

I don't carry a gun because I feel inadequate.
I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate. 

I don't carry a gun because I love it.
I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me. 

Police protection is an oxymoron. 
Free citizens must protect themselves. 
Police do not protect you from crime, they usually just investigate the crime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess. 

Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an ass whoopin'.....author unknown (but obviously brilliant)

TO


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## ccheese (Dec 21, 2011)

I'll raise my glass and yell Ooo-Rahh to that, Steve ! 

BTW, that would look good on FB !!

Charles


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## GrauGeist (Dec 22, 2011)

I'm with Charles, well said, TO


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## RabidAlien (Dec 22, 2011)

Love it! I've got that in an email in my inbox that's permanently saved. Whoever sent that one added a line at the bottom: "I carry a gun because a cop's just too heavy."


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## vikingBerserker (Dec 22, 2011)

A-Fricken-Men TO!


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## mikewint (Dec 23, 2011)

Steve, better than excellent. I'm waiting for the 12/21/12 "end of the world" the whackos are going to be out in full force


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## RabidAlien (Dec 23, 2011)

Heh....Santa's being naughty! Love it!!!


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La7n8-b3V7Y_


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## vikingBerserker (Dec 23, 2011)

My God, it's Matt!!!!!!!


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## RabidAlien (Dec 23, 2011)

I would've been waaaaaaaaaay more impressed if the metal targets had been different sizes, or hollow, and made different sounds when struck. But, to put that many rounds downrange at that speed (beats-per-minute?), he had a really good hit rate!


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## bobbysocks (Dec 24, 2011)

mikewint said:


> Steve, better than excellent. I'm waiting for the 12/21/12 "end of the world" the whackos are going to be out in full force



they finally found a reason to recycle ( or sell off ) all the stuff they bought for the Y2K catastrophe that didnt happen.


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## vikingBerserker (Dec 24, 2011)

That's awesome, have the Y2K marked out and 12/12/12 written next to it.


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## ToughOmbre (Jan 3, 2012)

A Texan was stopped for speeding and the officer noticed a pistol lying on the seat.

The officer asked, "Is that your 45?" 

The Texan replied, "Yes, and I have a permit to carry it. I also have a 38 under the seat, a 22 in my boot and a 12 gauge in the trunk." 

The officer asked in dismay, "What are you afraid of?" 

The Texan replied, "Not a damn thing." 

TO


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## vikingBerserker (Jan 3, 2012)

LMAO


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## RabidAlien (Jan 3, 2012)

A-frikkin-men.


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## mikewint (Jan 13, 2012)

You betcha, this would be a much nicer and polite society if everyone carried


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## Capt. Vick (Jan 13, 2012)

Clarence Boddicker: Oooh. Guns, guns, guns. C'mon, Sal. The Tigers are playing... [slaps the table] tonight. I never miss a game.


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## javlin (Jan 13, 2012)

I had/have a chance for an SVT-40 this week got some things in order at the bank(nice load removed) but have passed for the moment.I just could not justify it quite yet.The SVT-40 has been on the short list of wants for a couple of years now and supposedly a non-import marked rifle!Have to see how this works out.Cheers


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## RabidAlien (Jan 13, 2012)

Got a new shooter convert last weekend! My Mom and sister were up from Austin for Kaylen's birthday (she turned 3 on the 3rd), and after all the hubbub was over, we were sitting around bored, and I suggested we hit the range. She's been saying she'd like to go, and I would have loved to have had Mom come along, but someone had to watch Kaylen. LOL So we went shooting...started her out with the .22cal Walther P22 (its pink. No. Its not mine. Belongs to my soon-to-be sister-in-law.) and old Winchester .22cal rifle. Made things easy on her, and kept the target at the 9' range. She had a fairly decent size cluster, once she got comfortable with the sights. After a few turns up on the line, she asked if she could try Jalissa's 9mm. She liked that one even better! Its been almost a week, now, and I'd be surprised if she doesn't have a handgun at home already. LOL


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## vikingBerserker (Jan 14, 2012)

Nice!


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## GrauGeist (Jan 14, 2012)

Dunno, RA...you sure that pink .22 isn't yours? lmao

Seriously though, it's good to see they enjoyed themselves at the range.

As for me, I just discovered that I can't replace my 1911 because the great state of California says that a 1911 doesn't pass the "drop test", therefore cannot be purchased...

I cannot print my thoughts about that "law" here without running the risk of being banned from the server for life...


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## RabidAlien (Jan 14, 2012)

Oh, its no problem, Grau, just use the board's "Bleep" function. Your post would look something like this:

"California's *bleep* *bleep* drop *bleep* test can go *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* an ugly *bleep* sheep while *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* with a 2x4. Furthermore, *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* hippy *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* liberals *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* *bleep* 1911's!"


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## javlin (Jan 14, 2012)

RA


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## GrauGeist (Jan 14, 2012)

LMAO RA!!

You're pretty close there


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## RabidAlien (Jan 14, 2012)

Woops, meant to add a "my Precious!" after "1911".


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## mikewint (Jan 15, 2012)

Right on target RA, I feel the same about Illinois gun restrictions, i.e. cannot even TOUCH a gun at a dealer without the silly FOID card. I am still amazed at Arkansas relaxed laws and very simple concealed carry permit. If/when stopped by a cop I must show the card, my DL, insurance card, and car reg. There are severe penalities if you do not show the card. No "I forgots" acccepted.


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## Matt308 (Jan 15, 2012)

Gotta love Kalifornia. Beautiful state. Lived there for 10yrs. I wouldn't spend another minute there if you paid me. Unfortunately, Washington state is so lame that they are unable to establish their own destiny via independent leadership, so we do what Kalifornia does, just 10-15yrs later. Kalifornia really has become so different from the rest of the country that I don't think most citizens who live there even realize it.


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## RabidAlien (Jan 16, 2012)

Siggy line in an email I just got:

"Shot my first turkey yesterday - scared everyone in the frozen food section. It was awesome! Gettin' old is so much fun..."

Why do I get this mental image of CCheese standing in the supermarket with a double-barrel, grinning from ear to ear?


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## bobbysocks (Jan 17, 2012)

that's funny! probably not too far from the truth... but still funny...


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## Bucksnort101 (Jan 17, 2012)

RabidAlien said:


> Siggy line in an email I just got:
> 
> "Shot my first turkey yesterday - scared everyone in the frozen food section. It was awesome! Gettin' old is so much fun..."



I hope he had gotten permission to hunt there. Up here in Minnesota if you get caught hunting turkeys without permission they take your, gun, truck, turkey, gravy, stuffing, mashed potatos, etc... away from you as punishment!!!


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## GrauGeist (Jan 17, 2012)

I agree with you, Matt...

I'm a native born (Southern) Californian and have watched my state slip from the world's 6th economic power to the equivellant of a third world nation complete with urban decay, corrupt politicians and confusing/nonsense laws...

One of the idiotic laws we have to deal with, is the infamous "drop test" law which is based around a pistol (auto, revolver, etc) having a round in the chamber and being "accidently" dropped from a certain height onto it's uncocked hammer. If the weapon is capable of transmitting the force from the impact to the firing pin causing the round to discharge, then it fails said "drop test"...

I can't think of a time that I dropped my weapon, accidently or otherwise regardless of whether or not there was a round chambered. I have alot of thoughts on this particular law, but the one sure-fire cure for this would be for a person to know proper weapon handling, including keeping the chamber clear until it's time to fire it. The other point that would make it easier on all citizens, is to *accept responsability for one's own actions*, including accidently shooting themselves when they drop thier own loaded weapon.

People in general really irritate me (present company excluded)


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## mikewint (Jan 18, 2012)

Grau, right on the nailhead. Having spent a lot of time in schools I have seen this attitude grow and grow. They are taught from the begining that they are responsible for nothing. If they fail it is not THEIR fault for not studying or doing homework, it is the teacher's fault for not teaching them correctly and they (students) can even personally sue that teacher. Our whole welfare system is "poor helpless pawn" based.
One of my favorite song lines comes from Willie: "Grandpappy told my Pappy: "Back in my day son, a man had to answer for the wicked he done.""
sorry Mods, off topic and I rant


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## Matt308 (Jan 18, 2012)

The drop test in Kalifirnai is nothing but the anti-gun crowd coming up with legistlation that doesn't outright ban guns, but allows for their "disqualification". This is no different than clips limited to 10rds, or carry laws limited to those that "qualify" or lead ammunition being banned due to environmental reasons. It's not about the environment people.

As everone knows, we just had a Mt. Rainier ranger shot to death by a gunman. Immediately there were calls for the banning of guns on federal forest land.

As if the gunman would have read a sign saying guns are not allowed and immediately turned around.

I'm sure I mentioned it before, but I won a lotto for a Department of Civilian Marksmanship Program (DCMP) and picked up an M1D Garand pristine with bonafides. Included rifle with match parts, original stock kit, Mk84 Lyman 4x scope with canvas bag, 4-prong flash hider, cleaning kit and original leather cheek mount. I was one lucky SOB.

M1D is on the bottom.


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## javlin (Jan 18, 2012)

Those M1D's Matt are nice rigs  The shop a couple of towns over Ralph has one maybe two in his inventory and it seems $2500 starting ??been awhile since I have looked at them.


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## GrauGeist (Jan 18, 2012)

Dang, Matt...that is one sweet score...congrats!!


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## vikingBerserker (Jan 18, 2012)

I agree!


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## RabidAlien (Jan 18, 2012)

Matt, you suck. Now I've got to drain the drool out of my keyboard. Dangit! 

(where does one sign up for a CMP drawing? Does one have to be a member?)

And Mike...you nailed that one. Its the "Me" generation growing up and passing on the self-centered-ness to the next generations.


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## Torch (Jan 19, 2012)

Very nice Matt.........


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## mikewint (Jan 19, 2012)

Very very nice Matt. I've seen one or two at gun shows but the price has always kept me away. Congrats at your very lucky winnings


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## ToughOmbre (Jan 19, 2012)

Beautiful, and you won it to boot!

There's nothing like a Garand!

TO


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## Bucksnort101 (Jan 19, 2012)

Nice Matt. Correct me if I am wrong. I always thought the CMP Lotteries are to winthe opportunity to purchase one of the rare rifles, such as the M1C or M1D. You still have to pay for said rifle is what I always thought. If I'm wrong, or if they have changed things I better get my name in the lottery!


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## Rocketeer (Jan 19, 2012)

Just pray you don't get like the UK!! Our gun laws are so strict and made by knee jerk politicians. I bought a lovely Thompson 1928 and had the gangster mods....only allowed it if it is deactivated....i got to shoot a fully functioning one in Florida which was fun!


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## RabidAlien (Apr 7, 2012)

Hey, quick question for all you violent gun-owning reprobates out there (yeah, and you too, Mike): the wife and I were at Academy Sports earlier this afternoon, taking a gander at their hunting section, and happened to get our fluffy mitts on a couple of 1911's (to hold and drool over, couldn't afford them at this time). They're Citadel 1911's, priced around $500, but I'd never heard of Citadel before. The guy at the counter said they were made in the Philippines, which doesn't mean much to me regarding quality. I did a quick Google search, and found various threads on various forums discussing the pros and cons (great guns for the price, factory-included mags are shite, pick up a George Wilson or other single-stack 1911 mag and they run like butter)...my question is, anybody here have any experience with this particular brand? I'd like to get the scoop from someone who owns one or has owned one, and whether it was loved/hated/indifferent. I loved the feel, and the slide spring didn't feel like it required a hydraulic jack (yeah, I'm a wuss) to rack it. The little grip notches on the back side of the slide felt a lot nicer than the ones on the Springfield XD series (don't get me wrong, I enjoy my XD, but sometimes, when your palms are sweaty, the gun is freshly oiled, and Jupiter is in the House of the Rising Sun, its a pain). Anyhoo, just lookin for feedback on one of these bad boys...would LOVE a Colt or Springfield 1911, but they're not in my price range yet.

ETA: we were looking at these as something else to have around "just in case", and potentially as carry-guns. The wife wants a Springfield EMP, which is a very nice, comfortable subcompact, but the $1200 tag is really prohibitive right now.


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## javlin (Apr 7, 2012)

I have not heard of them either it seems RA but as to the XD shot one once I did not care for it that much.It had the 4" barrel grips seemed fat aahhh gave it back could not group well either.The owned of the XD shot my SP WWII army issue copy grouped better with it than he did with his own XD and I p/u the SP for $400 almost new.It does sound like what you handled today was a more traditional setup for a 1911?


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## RabidAlien (Apr 8, 2012)

As far as I could tell, yeah, it was a traditional 1911 setup, beavertail, single-stack mags, etc. I have nothing against the XD, feels good in my hand, but I could always use tighter groups! Always figured that was just because I've never had any formal training. Need to remedy that. But, yeah, even with the trigger lock on the thing, the 1911 felt really good in my hand.


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## GrauGeist (Apr 8, 2012)

Can't give you any help on that, RA...I've owned the Colt 1911A and Norinco 1911A clone :/


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## javlin (Apr 8, 2012)

I had one of my co-workers loan me a bolt HR17 Savage accu-trigger with the keyhole Monte Carlo stock nice little rig.I will get out from the city come Tuesday or Wednesday to try her those little guys they are rated at 2550fps.The keyhole grip really feels nice I never have played with that before since most of my stuff is Military issue.


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## Torch (Apr 9, 2012)

Citadel's are hit or miss. Go to 1911forum.com and you will get all the answers. Personnally I would buy a used Springfield(even thou they are made in Brazil) than anything out of the Phillipines.Rock Island Armory is another one that is either hit or miss. Maybe look at the Remmington line of 1911s atleast you know you have some kind of factory backed service.


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## mikewint (Apr 9, 2012)

RA, I am with Torch on this one. I have the XDm .45 and I love it. It comes with the match barrel and I had night sights installed and picked up a green laser which allows me to put most of the 13 rounds in the heart/gut zone of the target. Personally it is much better than my old army colt. For your wife, Ruger has a very nice 9mm with factory laser sights that is small compact and very easy to aim and fire. S&W also has a somewhat smaller .380 (the Bodyguard)also with factory laser sights that is an easy concealed carry gun (gun shops here can't keep them in stock). Load hollow point and you've got a man stopper, though not like the .45.
Here in Ark at a gun show the .380 and 9mm went for about $400 each


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## RabidAlien (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks, guys...yeah, 1911forum was one of the sites I found via Google. The general consensus there was that the gun itself was decent, pretty darn good for the price, but to pick up some reliable after-market mags for it since the supplied mags were crap. Mike, I have nothing against my Springfield XD (9mm), its the only handgun I own right now, and it feels good to fire, but it seemed a whole lot stiffer to me. The slide spring was a lot stiffer, the slide lock almost required two hands (I'm not Lou Ferrigno by any means, but I'm also not Barney Fife)...it does have ambidextrous mag release buttons, though, which I really like since I'm cross-eye dominant, so sometimes I'll get to the end of a mag and realize I'm shooting lefty. So much easier to just reach whatever thumb is closest and pop the mag out. The Citadel, by comparison, was smooth. Everything was easy and really well oiled, and I REALLY liked the feel. I'll have to see if some of the other ranges/shops nearby have any of the Springfields.

And we've got mags loaded with hollow-point in the guns right now, so 9mm or no, they'll feel it.


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## Torch (Apr 9, 2012)

I asked my LGS about Citadel's and they barely knew anything about them, they seem to have relatively good luck with Rock Island brand(in the same price range as Citadel's) but just FYI it took them 8 months to replace a defective slide on one. They recommended looking at a used Springfield in the 500/600 dollar range and you will be much better off which is what I mentioned. Good luck.


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## Torch (Apr 9, 2012)

Just FYI the slide release can be operated in 2 ways,either by trying to depress the lever or using the "slingshot" method. Slide releases can be also called slide locks which keeps the slide open on the last round. When a new mag is inserted people sometimes try to use the slide release/lock lever which can be difficult. It is easier sometimes to just grab the slide and yank it back and it will feed a new round much easier .


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## RabidAlien (Apr 10, 2012)

Kewl, we'll keep our eyes open. I swear I'm gonna get her to a gun show one of these days! And yeah, I just do the "grab and yank" method now. That's so much easier than trying to thumb down the lock!


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## mikewint (Apr 10, 2012)

RA, I wish I could give you better info on the Cit but personally know nothing about them. PM Matt. Before I bought the .45 XDm I was looking at Glocks so I PMed Matt and he gave me a great deal of help


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## Torch (Apr 10, 2012)

For a 9mm carry you can go alot of ways, the S&W MP series, the Ruger SR9, or if you can get your hands on the new Walther PPQ to try(I have one on lay away) are all great guns. I personnaly do not like Glocks, not because of performance issues but my trigger finger rubs raw on the bottom of the trigger guard, The new FNs are pretty reasonable also. The thing about EMPS they are single action only which means your wife would have to carry the EMP cocked and locked which can be intimidating for some people. Best thing to do is find a range that can rent guns so you can try the fit of them. Most guns now days are very reliable and pretty accurate,just a matter of what fits the best.


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## RabidAlien (Apr 10, 2012)

Kewl, thanks again to both of y'all! The indoor range we use has a lot of guns for rent, next time we head thataway she's going to try the AR15 on for size, and we'll see if they have a Springfield EMP. Good info about the SA on that, Torch, I didn't know that.


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## mikewint (Apr 11, 2012)

Mugh finger stuttered


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## mikewint (Apr 11, 2012)

RA, Torch is 100%, though there are many issues of fit, finish, and continued reliability. One other piece of advice, with the smaller .380 or 9mm guns. I load a hollow point followed by a FMJ followed by a hollow, FMJ,... If you miss on the first round and your target hides behind something you have your next round FMJ to penetrate, and if he pops up the next is hollow...
Though for home defense: shotguns. I have a 20 gauge auto w/000 buck and a .410 w/000 buckshot


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## mikewint (Apr 18, 2012)

RA and others, My personal choices for concealed carry. The small, .380 S&W Bodyguard with laser, 6 round mag with alternating hollow and FMJ. My personal carry the somewhat larger 9mm Ruger also with laser, 7 round mag also loaded with alternating hollow and FMJ.


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## mikewint (Apr 18, 2012)

For Sheer stopping a man dead in his tracks you can't beat the .45. My Springfield XDm, with installed green laser and Trijcon night sights, and the 13 round double stack mag


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## mikewint (Apr 18, 2012)

Now if you want to reachout and touch someone or thing at 400-600 yards. A Marlin 30-30 with 9X variable wide angle scope. I like the lever action as opposed to bolt and Marlin has the micro-groove rifeing' The rounds are 170 grain soft-nose and come in 4 types depending on when you want them to mushroom. I use the thin skin game (deer) and thick (elk, bear)


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## MacArther (Apr 18, 2012)

Me likey the lever action!


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## mikewint (Apr 19, 2012)

Same here, plus Marlin has the side eject unlike Winchester 94's top eject. The short carbine is much easier to carry and maneuver in the woods and brush. Though around here I have 10-20 deer in my backyard every morning and evening


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## RabidAlien (Apr 19, 2012)

Nice! For us cross-eye-dominant shooters, the lever action would be great! No awkward moving the rifle around the face to work the bolt! Nice!


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## GrauGeist (Apr 20, 2012)

I like my Winchester 94 .30-30, but I never really use it, to be honest...for a lever gun, I prefer my .300 Savage


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## mikewint (Apr 20, 2012)

I really liked the 94 too but that top eject makes mounting a scope difficult and the off-set mount is very clumsy for me to use. With just the iron sights I'd be lucky to hit the house. The biggest game here is elk but the permits are expensive, few, and by lottery. There is one range that goes out to 700yds. At 400yds I almost always hit the target but the bullseye is pretty much by chance


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## RabidAlien (Apr 22, 2012)

Heh. At 400 yards, if someone were to give me a flesh-wound, I think I'd call it a day. I'll take my HelloKitty bandage and go home, I'm not gonna push my luck for another 375 yards, hoping you don't find that bulls-eye! I'd say hitting the target at that range is still pretty darn good.


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## mikewint (Apr 22, 2012)

The 9X scope and bench rest get most of the credit, though there was a time when I had two good eyes...
My last set of guns are mostly just for fun
1. Waited for more than a year but finally my Kel-tec PMR-30. A .22WMR auto with a 30 round double stack magazine, light gathering bar sights that even I can see. 
2. A Henry .22WMR lever action with a Bushnell 9X variable wide angle scope. A real tack driver to about 100yds under calm conditions. HP rounds are deadly on small game
3. Taurus Circuit Judge - a 5 shot double or single action .410 shotgun shooting 2.5 or 3in magnum shells. #7 bird shot, #5 game, #3 or 000 buckshoot deadly to anyone within 25yds. Plus with a choke change it shoots .45 long colt bullets. Gap between cylinder and barrel gives a good sid blast. Got to watch where your left arm goes
4. Target at 10yds showing 10 rounds of #5 shot and 5 of 000 buck (larger holes)


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## GrauGeist (Apr 22, 2012)

Dang Mike, that 410 wheel gun is really cool...reminds me of the Winchester model 9410, which I really wanted to get when it came out.

Your comment about the "splash" at the cylindar/barrel reminds me of when I was shooting the family's vintage Colt .41 Long. The gap between the cylindar and forcing cone was such, that lead would dangerously splash to either side, making it unsafe to discharge at a public range but also confirming stories of the old west, where bystanders would often suffer worse than the gunslingers themselves...


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## MacArther (Apr 23, 2012)

How common are wheel gun rifles/shotguns like the one you have shown? What sort of operating pressure/round can you go up to in such a design?


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## RabidAlien (Apr 23, 2012)

Dang, I've always found those wheel-gun rifles sooo cool lookin! Awesome!!!


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## mikewint (Apr 23, 2012)

MacA, 000 buckshot are .36in diameter and about 72 grain. 00 buckshot are .33in in diameter and 67 grain. Pressures in the smaller .410 shotgun are similiar to rifle pressures running about 13,500psi producing velocities of 1,200fps for the 5 buckshot (000) in the shell. 00 buckshot puts 7 shot into the shell.
While there is a .410 slug it is only about 100 grain. The long colt by comparison has a 250 grain wadcutter bullet so why bother with the slug. 
Winchester has just developed a defensive .410 shell which contains 4 copper plated disks .4in in diameter and .25in thick. The 4 disks are backed by 16 BBs (.18in diameter). The disks are wide enough to engage the rifleing in the barrel (this little trick keeps the Circuit Judge clear of the sawed-off shotgun laws) thus the disks spread very little. The 16 BBs spread in the usual manner. In effect bullets backed by shotgun pellets
History - The wheel-rifle was a effort to increase fire power and was adopted very quickly by the military replacing both bolt and lever-action. The cylinder carried various capacities up to 12 rounds in some models. The two main problems were the gap between cylinder and barrel which vented pressure reducing bullet velocities and the slower reloading since the empty cases are not ejected.


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## Matt308 (Apr 23, 2012)

Fun stuff guys! I'm jealous of the keltec


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## mikewint (Apr 23, 2012)

Matt, guy at the last gun show was walking around with one asking $625. I laughed


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## Matt308 (Apr 27, 2012)

Yeah no kidding. I would have too. I like it, but not nearly that much. Hardly close. Look, in my eyes the real short coming of the Keltec is the price of .22mag compared with other centerfire ammo.

Now if only they could reinvent history so that .22lr would fire in a .22mag.


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## mikewint (Apr 27, 2012)

Matt, actually I did not think that the .22WMR was that far out of price compared to the .22LR. I pay $10.97 per 50 for CCI in .22WMR and $8.47 per 50 for .22LR. The Kel-tec is fussy and pretty much requires a quality WMR round. I can also buy bulk 5000 round cases for considerably less per round.
I have a friend that can buy pretty much at cost: 250 rounds .45 for $90 not a whole lot more than the .22WMR


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## RabidAlien (Apr 27, 2012)

Found a quote over at Gun Free Zone: 



> "Contrary to what some experts say, I do believe in a warning shot in the air….. of the lungs. Critters get the warning pretty fast then."



That would make one AWESOME Tshirt!


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## mikewint (Apr 28, 2012)

RA, Excellent, going along with the other two posts, I like this one


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## RabidAlien (Apr 28, 2012)

A friend emailed me a pic of a metal sign that he's gonna get for his front door, has that on it.


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## Matt308 (May 2, 2012)

Mike you pay a hefty price for .22LR. For twice that I can get 500rds or so. I do have to admit though that even .22LR is going up in price. Hell 10yrs ago I could get a brick of 500 for a little over what you now pay for 50. It sucks to get old. And if you can get .45 for $0.18/rnd, man I would buy that all day long. I went on last-minute-decision to go shooting with my boys and realized I had no .38spl. On the way I stopped at the local gunshop and payed about $10/50rds for Fiocchi TMJ. Time to break out the reloader. That was a forehead slapper.

And God forbid, Rabid, that your buddy ever shoot anyone in his house. That sign would be used as circumstantial evidence to pretty much seal his doom by the opposing lawyer(s). Makes me sick that the whole country doesn't embrace the Castle Doctrine. It ought to be that a person who invades someone's home is fair game. Running away or not. You cross the threshold, game on. Nobody punishes the guy who posts a "Beware of Dog" sign on his door.


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## CharlesBronson (May 2, 2012)

Very nice that "shotgun revolver". I have see here some over and unders in 45/410 combination but never a six shooter


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## MacArther (May 3, 2012)

Anyone have any reviews about the M6 survival rifle or the Ar-7 rifle?


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## GrauGeist (May 4, 2012)

I used to own an Armalite AR-7...I loved that rifle.

Lightweight, compact and pretty dang accurate.

I was very pleased with it


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## RabidAlien (May 5, 2012)

Mike, no worries, its one of those things we laughed at (like the sign that says "c'mon in, but be warned the dog is armed and refuses to take his medicine"), but would never post. Its a sad, sad state of affairs when the criminals who break into a person's home end up having more rights than the person defending their own property and loved ones. Sad, indeed.


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## Torch (May 5, 2012)

+1


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## vikingBerserker (May 5, 2012)




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## mikewint (May 5, 2012)

Matt, I generally buy CCI but Federal has .22LR, 550 rounds for $23 aout $.04 per round. I bought 1000 rounds of the .45 and will pick up another 1000 next month. It's FMJ but that's OK for target, ect. Heck it's a pretty good anti-personel round
Beware of Dog falls into the same catagory as the gun signs. Leagally it is an open admission that you have a vicious animal.
In Ark. you can shoot 'em in your yard in the chest, in the back is a no-no. It is excessive force as they were retreating. Also you can't keep pumping rounds into 'em. In fear of my life only goes so far, even in Ark.


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## mikewint (May 5, 2012)

CharlesB, I guess the old revolver carbine has pretty well passed into history. They were very popular in the "old west" and in the military where the replaced both bolt and lever. Eventually the slow reload did them in.
The best known, to me, was Colt's 1855
ans Remington made several models


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## RabidAlien (Oct 6, 2012)

Went out to DFW Gun Range - Training Center and Retail Firearms Store - Dallas, TX today with a friend from church, and my wife.  First time shooting a shotgun for our friend J, my wife J, and myself (J's boyfriend, D, brought his pistol-grip 12-gage...I forget the make and model), that's always fun! My wife and I went through a couple boxes of ammo (yeah, yeah....once more bills get paid off, we'll start going through a LOT more ammo, trust me!), and I managed to snag this beauty of a shot (photo and handgun!) with a cell phone camera...probably used up a years' supply of luck getting it, too! Still, its a cool shot, IMHAOIO (in my humble and oft-ignored opinion).







ETA: Mike, I've always loved the looks of those old revolver rifles! They're just frikkin COOL!


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## GrauGeist (Oct 7, 2012)

Pistol-grip shotguns are certainly fun to shoot, I used to have a Remington 870 that I worked into a "Vindicator" model:
Parkerized finish
Factory 18 1/4" police style barrel (2 3/4" chamber)
Tube magazine extension
Pachmeyer grips (both butt and pump)
External stores, reciever mounted
Barrel heat extractor

It was a real (pardon the pun) blast to run some rounds through and it would have been a serious equilizer against home intruders or a door-to-door situation.

And, AWESOME catch on that pic, RA...well done!


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## RabidAlien (Oct 7, 2012)

Yeah, we had a great time shooting it (not that we ran too many shells through it...it wasn't ours, after all). Would have been nice to have a laser dot on it, so that we knew were we were going to be putting the buckshot. After two of my shots went a bit low, I had to comment that not only would the perp NOT be getting up after taking those loads, but he wouldn't be perpetuating the criminal gene-pool any more. After that, I managed to get them somewhere near center-mass. It wasn't a pretty target, by any means...but it was a "stopped" target. LOL


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## GrauGeist (Oct 7, 2012)

I hear ya' on the devestating target coverage!

I had considered at one time, placing a laser on my Vindicator, but I figured it wasn't really nessecary since one round (2 3/4" high-brass #6) would clear a decent sized room. So simply levelling it about hip-height and pointing it in the bad-guy's general direction would accomplish serious coverage of not only thier body, but the floor, ceiling, most walls and about 90% of any other object within thier general vicinity (except those items directly behind aforementioned bad guy's body)...


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## RabidAlien (Oct 8, 2012)

Yep, its a room-sweeper, that's for sure. However, since it would probably be a room filled with my own possessions, I figured the more lead-therapy the perp received, the less the items that I'd paid for would receive. Win-win, in my book!


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## GrauGeist (Oct 8, 2012)

Oohhh...good point, save the stuff from the bad guy, my bad.

Then obviously the 12 Gauge Frangible Slug is the right decision for this situation! 

Those 325gr. hollow point slugs will do the trick nicely!


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 8, 2012)

"lead therapy" 

Nice RA!


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## bobbysocks (Oct 9, 2012)

here's what you need for those 12 ga shotguns.....a couple thugs coming down the hallway...light'em up...literally!


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwhCygmhbCg_


there are a bunch of "interesting" shotgun rounds that are still available today. there was:

the bolo round. a shell that had 2 lead balls with a piec of piano wire between them
flechette rounds. a shell with hundreds of small finishing nail sized darts.
animal control rounds. a small 12 ga explosive grenade
rubber slug, there were 2 versions one with a large rubber sabot and one with several 00 buck size rubber balls
tear gas round, self explanitory as well
smoke round, self explanitory
flare round, 2 versions one had a parachute, the other did not
i dont know how practical any of those would be but i am sure they would be fun to shoot...lol


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## RabidAlien (Oct 9, 2012)

Bolo round sounds devastatingly lethal! Same with Flechette. I'd LOVE to see them in action, though, out on an open range somewhere.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 9, 2012)

There are also 12 Gauge drag-corrected bean-bag rounds. Definately non-lethal unless you nail the douchebag in the throat/eye or perhaps a close range shot to the brisket resulting in cardiac arrest.

I hate to even say this, but the way things are nowdays regarding defense attorneys and the dreaded personal injury attorneys, I wouldn't consider non-lethal force to a home invader or someone jeopardizing my life. I just cannot afford the protracted legal battles that would ensue...


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## Matt308 (Oct 11, 2012)

RabidAlien said:


> Bolo round sounds devastatingly lethal! Same with Flechette. I'd LOVE to see them in action, though, out on an open range somewhere.



If such a thing is available, it is not above board market. This description is of "pirate" era wherein cannon fodder might have consisted of two large shots connected via wire to destroy ship rigging. Nowadays? BS. I've never seen such unless it is black market or small scale sales.


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## RabidAlien (Oct 12, 2012)

Yeah, I knew about the grape- and chain-shot from the wind-powered naval days. Wasn't quite sure how they'd get a chain small enough to fit in the shells, but strong enough to withstand being fired. Still, the sci-fi geek in me would love to see them come to be!


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## mikewint (Oct 12, 2012)

RA, excellent shot (also no pun)
I'm with Matt, I've never heard of such rounds for a shotgun. The fletchet rounds were common in Arty and I have seen them in action. There are also aerial bomblets than spray the fletchets. I have anti-personel rounds for the .410 that contain 4, .45 cal disks and 18 BB's. The disks are supposed to go essentially straight while the BBs spread. I personally like a 20 gauge auto for home defense. Most times you are shooting across a room 12 - 15ft and even for a 20 that's a tight pattern. I also like #8 shot backed up by #00 buck in following rounds.
Going to post pics soon. Recently bought an SSA 1893 Custer Colt 7.5in complete with the Ainsworth cartouche, not 100% orginal, been reworked in the past so it s fully shootable and just recently a 1939 German Army Luger also almost orginal. It has 2 unmatched serial numbers and is also a great shooter. If it could only talk


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## bobbysocks (Oct 14, 2012)

i never claimed they were available at walmart...just that if you want them...you can get them. one of my ammo suppliers had them but since i wasnt into shotguns i never stocked any. but you can go shopping for all those and more here...

Specialized Shotshell Ammunition

mike back in the late 80s early 90s they found a crap load of walther P 38 and luger parts in belgium. some of the guns were partial and some were completely broken down. they ( importer ) put them together with mixed parts so the serial numbers didnt match. they went for about 1/2 the price of the matching but shot just as well. who really care if the numbers all match unless you are a die hard collector...


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## GrauGeist (Oct 15, 2012)

By the way, Matt...the bolo round, flechette and a broad variety of rounds for 12 gauge and other gauges are currently available from an ammunition dealer I have dealt with several times (none of this stuff, though...I was after plain old 9mm ammo)...

Here's a partial list from thier catalogue:


> 12 GAUGE WHISTLE
> THESE CARTRIDGES LIFT A PROJECTILE THAT EMITS AN EAR-PIERCING SCREAM TO AN AVERAGE ALTITUDE OF 600 FEET. THESE CARTRIDGES ARE DESIGNED TO WARD OFF PREDATORS SUCH AS DEER, FOX AND DOGS ON PROTECTED PROPERTY/FARM LANDS OR NURSERIES. WARNING: FOR WILDLIFE AND AGRICULTURAL USE ONLY. NOT TO BE USED AS FIREWORKS. CHECK YOUR GUN BARREL FOR OBSTRUCTIONS AFTER EACH SHOT.
> ######## - PKG OF 3
> 
> ...


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## Matt308 (Oct 15, 2012)

However, if you ever shot somebody with one of these rounds, in a legal situation or not, I guarantee that you would go directly to jail.


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## bobbysocks (Oct 15, 2012)

if i "needed" to shot someone.....going to jail would be the last thing on my mind. hitting the target would be #1... lol


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## GrauGeist (Oct 15, 2012)

Just about 99% of those loads look like a hoot to fool around with...but not in any of my smoothbores...lmao

I'll use someone else's


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## Matt308 (Oct 15, 2012)

bobbysocks said:


> if i "needed" to shot someone.....going to jail would be the last thing on my mind. hitting the target would be #1... lol



That's a nice statement from someone not having shot someone. But if you were to talk with firearm lawyers and firearm special witnesses, hey would tell you different everyday of the week. It's an easy decision when you make a snap judgement on a moments notice to load your firearm. It is quite another when you have made a concientious decision to load yourself with "publicly perceived" extreme loads.

Look, I'm with you, but reality is that legal proceedings even view our 2nd amendment rights negatively when we are reloaders that work up high power +P or +P+ loadings for personal defense. Just look in the recent past wherein Winchester Black Talon's were vilified by victim rights advocates and certain medical surgeons.

Be careful gents. Its no different than putting a sign on your front door that says "This house protected by Smith and Wesson". You shoot somebody and they will use that against you.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 15, 2012)

You're right, Matt...they'll term any of the above listed loads as "excessive force" and the legal adventure begins.

It's a rare case when a homeowner or potential victim prevails over the local District Attorney or public sentiment in a defensive shooting. The current mentality is that no matter how much in danger the potential victim was in, he/she used a horrible gun to a protect themselves. That makes them pretty much the criminal in this case, even if the assailant was a felon hopped up on dope packing a stolen weapon. The media will villify the defender and show how wonderful the bad guy was and the prosecuting attornet will scrape and pry to find anything that will amplify just how viscious the defender was.

They will take the facts from the shooting incident (how many shots fired, what type of weapon/ammo used on the bad guy, did the bad guy have a weapon and if so, what type was it fired?), then they'll go and look for bumper stickers (even NRA can be damning), clever signs (like Matt mentioned), hunting club memberships, profile the type of weapons that are found in the defender's home (how many shotguns, are there military weapons/memorabelia?, etc) and build up a profile to the jury that they weren't defending themselves, they were out to kill...period.

It's cool to see the goodguys in the movies put the hurt on the badguys with all sorts of wicked firepower and stunning killshots while expending several thousand rounds per episode, but the real world can be turned upside down with a single gunshot...


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## RabidAlien (Oct 16, 2012)

You might be surprised, actually, what the laws covering defense of personal property (and lives!) say. I looked up the "Castle Law" here in Texass the other day, and was surprised to find out that the "duty to retreat" section had been struck out back in '06 or '07. Which makes it on a par with Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law. If there is a reasonable threat (ie, someone kicking in your door or coming in through a window), you can use whatever force necessary to defend yourself, your family, and your property (to include home, vehicle, and place of business). "Reasonable" means that some dumb 10 year old cutting across your lawn to get home after school is not a threat, unless he's carrying a lead pipe and surrounded by a dozen of his fellow hoods. If you haven't already, I'd encourage every gun owner here (whether you carry on a daily basis or not...and if you carry, you'd dam well BETTER know the local laws!) to become familiar with your local laws and regulations. Ignorance is no longer a viable defense, with the ease of finding information through classes or the Internet.

Texass' "Castle Law"


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## mikewint (Oct 16, 2012)

I second everything that Matt stated. Putting up ANY of these cute signs around your house is an admission that you are a killer prone to use lethal force. Even Beware of the Dog signs ae used in court as an admission that you have a vicious animal and it will be used against you if your dog bites someone.
Now I have also said that, "It is better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6". On the other hand, wound some moron and you could be looking at millions in court costs and damages. So, damn tough call "Lethal Force" and "Excessive Force"
And RA, GOOD for Texas


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## bobbysocks (Oct 16, 2012)

you are absolutely right...i have never shot anyone. but if i feel my life or the life of one of my family members is in real peril...i will worry about the consequences later. i will do what i can to make sure my family or myself are safe...but will see what way the winds blow after that and make decisions to stay and fight in court or dissapear off the face of the earth...


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## mikewint (Oct 19, 2012)

Bobby, I teend to agree with you but once you have property the disappearing act gets tougher. Courts award damages to crooks and morons for assinine reasons. one of my all time favorites:
October 1998: A Terrence Dickson of Bristol,
Pennsylvania was leaving a house he had just finished
robbing by way of the garage. He was not able to get the
garage door to go up since the automatic door opener was
malfunctioning. He couldn't re-enter the house because the
door connecting the house and garage locked when he
pulled it shut. The family was on vacation. Mr. Dickson
found himself locked in the garage for eight days. He
subsisted on a case of Pepsi he found, and a large bag of
dry dog food. He sued the homeowner's insurance claiming
the situation caused him undue mental anguish. The jury
agreed to the tune of half a million dollars.
Or even better:
October 1999: Jerry Williams of Little Rock, Arkansas
was awarded $14,500 and medical expenses after being
bitten on the buttocks by his next door neighbour's
beagle. The beagle was on a chain in it's owner's
fenced-in yard. The award was less than sought because the
jury felt the dog might have been just a little provoked
at the time by Mr. Williams who was shooting it repeatedly
with a pellet gun.


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## muscogeemike (Oct 19, 2012)

My favorite came from the NRA’s magazine about citizens being armed when confronted by criminals.

In Phoenix, AZ, an elderly woman who shot a man breaking into her home was charged by the DA.

During her trial the DA ask her why she had shot the guy 6 times. She replied “because when I pulled the trigger the seventh time the gun went click.”

She was acquitted by the jury.

In the mid ‘90’s, in Riverside County, S. CA, a sheriffs deputy was chasing a drug dealer in a trailer park where mainly retired couples lived (my grandparents among them). The bad guy was jumping fences, running through back yards and the deputy was following. In several yards resided dogs and the deputy shot and killed some of them.

When residents complained the County Sheriff refused to even start an inquiry - stating the deputy was performing in the line of duty and protecting himself. Among the dogs he was “protecting” himself from were Dachshunds, Chihuahuas, and Poodles.

This same Sheriff and his dept. was sued over another issue. Despite thousands of requests, according to public records, in his more than 20 yrs in office the only people he had issued concealed weapons permits were politicians and VIPs (read contributors to his campaigns).


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## GrauGeist (Oct 20, 2012)

muscogeemike said:


> This same Sheriff and his dept. was sued over another issue. Despite thousands of requests, according to public records, in his more than 20 yrs in office the only people he had issued concealed weapons permits were politicians and VIPs (read contributors to his campaigns).



Sherrif Gates of L.A. County was alledgedly doing the same thing...


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## Matt308 (Oct 21, 2012)

Sounds like New York.


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## bobbysocks (Oct 23, 2012)

mike, both of those jurys should have been drawn and quartered for rendering a decision like that. the owners of the house and dog must have had really crappy lawyers. but i guess that is the way this country is going. in the case of the dog i am surprised the ASPCA didnt nail that guys hide to the shed wall. in this country you can get more jail time for mistreating an animal than you can for killing a human!


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## mikewint (Oct 23, 2012)

Ain't it the truth Bobby, unfortunately those are exactly te kind of juries you have to face. Force is a slippery slope but being dead is permanent. On the other hand I'm too old to live on the streets because I lost everything in some civil court. It is a tough call.


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## bobbysocks (Oct 29, 2012)

mike you can come for an extended visit at my place in belize.... where no one knows who you are nor do they give a $#!T.


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## mikewint (Oct 30, 2012)

Bobby, pretty much the same here in Arkansas. The house is pretty much out in the country and I have a shooting range out in the back yard where we shoot all the time. Besides the Dobe and the guns anyone trying to break-in is in for an unpleasant surprise. It is a tough call as to how some State's At. is going to look at it. Then you are looking at thousands of dollars just to defend yourself and who knows how the jury is going to react. It's an F'ed up world and I'm a dino


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## mikewint (Dec 2, 2012)

Several gun shows later: an 1874 Colt SSA, modified and updated to modern standards (destroyed most of its value, good thing) making it an every day shooter. 
Picked up a nice "Cowboy styled holster and belt for it.
OWA (Orville W Ainsworth, army inspector) cartouche on the Left, mahogany grips, US stamp on the frame, 7.5in barrel make this a calvery model destined for the 7th calvery
Original "Bullseye" extractor end but cylinder screw locking screw has been modified to a thumb style screw


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## mikewint (Dec 2, 2012)

More gun show booty: Stoeger purchased the US patent to the Luger name. In 1991 Aimco began to manufacture "American Eagle" 9mm Lugers. These were marketed by Mitchel Arms. In 1994 Stoeger purchased the rights to market the Texas built Lugers. This is a 1993 Mitchel Arms 9mm Luger brand new in original box. To my knowledge it has been fired only once at the factory.
The Knights Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords is WWII vintage


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## RabidAlien (Dec 2, 2012)

AWESOME! Lovin that Colt!!!


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## mikewint (Dec 3, 2012)

RA, me too, normally an orginal in good condition and with a traceable history run $10,000 to $35,000. WAY out of m price range and it could only be looked at and touched with gloves lest the value be lowered. This is a shooter and with that long 7.5 barrel accurate. Only downside, .45 long colt is expensive to shoot. Got me thinking about reloading.
Normally I am aginst gun paper weights but that American Eagle Luger was too good to pass on. So I have my first display only gun


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## mikewint (Dec 3, 2012)

More Booty: Back around 1970 I bought my first hand gun, one of the Colt Snake series, a Colt Python. When money got tight in the land I sold it for about $400US. Wanted it back ever since. Found this one at a show in almost new condition. It has Pachmayr grips installed but is otherwise original. One of the really neat things is the caliber. The .357 mag round is a man stopper but if you want to shoot targets is happily shoots .38 special for half the price


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## bobbysocks (Dec 3, 2012)

i always loved the P-08 luger's looks...and the P-38 walther. they were the guns usually used in the spy flicks.... back in the mid to late 80s they found a warehouse full of parts for both guns...recievers and all. they flooded the market with non-matching serial numbered models. before then you couldnt touch one for uner $400....these sold for around $250.


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## Torch (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm liking the show,nice...


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## mikewint (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks Torch, as soon as the gunsmith finishes with the P-08 Luger I'll post pics.


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## michaelmaltby (Dec 3, 2012)

Great post, Mike .. 

MM


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## javlin (Dec 4, 2012)

This is moving high up on the want list it is in competition with a Uberti 1860 Colt.This has a way cool factor comes in 22Lr and reports are coming in quarter size holes @50yds 25rds open sights  

German Sport Guns Schmeisser STG-44 .22lr Rifle


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## vikingBerserker (Dec 4, 2012)

Now that's really cool!


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## tomo pauk (Dec 4, 2012)

Luger is a Spitfire of handguns.

Cool, seem like mike uses something of Croatian origin (xD pistol)


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## RabidAlien (Dec 4, 2012)

Yeah, I've seen that STG44 reproduction, and would really love to have one....just wish they made it in a 5.56 or something other than .22. Just seems a shame, sorta like dropping a Yugo engine in an original Stingray. I'm not gonna say "affront to nature", but its pretty darn close. But, still...to have an STG44....:drool:


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## javlin (Dec 4, 2012)

RA I think a 22mag would be a nice setup also [email protected] is nothing to sneeze at but yea was my initial thoughts were yours but it's kinda growing on me.Of the 15 rifles I have only two are 22 and one is 22Lr and the other a 22mag making them fairly cheap to shoot.Talk has already started brewing about MP40 that is in the works and shoot they may rework some of these into the 22mag in the future.If you remember someone out of Germany did a STG44 3-5 years ago in semi only made it as far as Canada/Marstar before our friends at the ATF said  to close in design to the FA.


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## RabidAlien (Dec 5, 2012)

Heh. "ATF" should be a convenience store, not a federal bureau. But, yeah, I agree with you Javelin....as much as I was disappointed in the .22 at first glance, it *is* growing on me.


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## Torch (Dec 5, 2012)

I handled the STG-44/.22lr. I like it alot but it's limited in what you can do(no option for optics,when you hit 56 you'll understand). If I had extra change i'd bite on this plinker...


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## mikewint (Dec 5, 2012)

If you look back at my post #641, those are my .22mag guns, the Kel-tec PMR-30 handgun and the Henry rifle. I like the .22mag cartrige and the CCI hollow points hit hard. With the Kel-tec 30 rounds coming at you in about 5sec is a lot of fire power. The .22LR lack the punch and sound.
I am looking seriously at Kel-tec's RFB or Rifle Forward ejecting Bullpup. It's a 7.62 NATO with a 600m range for the carbine. Unfortunately like a lot of Kel-tec's offerings very difficult to find and when you do find one they sell above MSRP, but I'm looking


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## bobbysocks (Dec 5, 2012)

i want one of those STGs....but would rather it be 556mm, 762x39, or something larger....with a 22lr conversion of course. i have to believe a larger caliber is on the drawing table at least. i love shooting and the price of 22lr but its such a dirty, grimey round. i dont think you will get the service and reliability out of it. they made 22 versions of the m16 and ak47. to keep them working it took a lot of extra cleaning and attention. then again maybe this design will work better!!


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## javlin (Dec 5, 2012)

Torch said:


> I handled the STG-44/.22lr. I like it alot but it's limited in what you can do(no option for optics,when you hit 56 you'll understand). If I had extra change i'd bite on this plinker...



HK claws mounts are suppose to work .RA and Mike I agree but still might get one for play may email the ATI and see if the 22mag are in the works for the mag actually sounds like a real bullet instaed of a pellet rifle.And really there is no headspace I can see on a 22rd since it the same diameter all the way from bullet to rim only the length changes.I just went and measured a 22mag OD roughly .238 and the 22Lr .223 so we are talking new barrel and new mag maybe maybe the breech would open wide enough it did on my 22Lr.

Torch the guy I got my range report from is a bit older than I and I am 52 and he pulled down a quarter size group at 50yds open sights and with a quick trigger for the most part he said.Heres his target and you can see the walk to the center as he adjusted the sights ......


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## mikewint (Dec 5, 2012)

The .22WMR cartrige is a difficult one to eject which is why there are VERY few .22WMR (Winchester Magnum RIFLE) automatics. The early Kel-tec PMR-30s where very prone to jams of all types. I have found that only the CCI brand functions reliably. So I sincerely doubt that GSG wll reissue in a .22mag. It does indeed look good but its a tin-can plinker in fancy clothes


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## Matt308 (Dec 5, 2012)

Wow have missed this thread for a while "Modding around". Sorry for that for my own reasons. Mike. I hate you dude. You are making me so jealous I may have to tell my wife that hair appts are now off limits to support my gun habit.

Seriously, I will be interested in your Stoeger gunsmith outcome. I have heard that OOB buys were not good. I always wanted a Stoeger if they worked. Your Colt is frickin awesome. That gun is so pritty I wouldn't care if it shot!!! 

I wouldn't buy anything in .22Mag for protection (though the KelTec P30 pistol would make my decade  ). Too expensive when you can buy more powerful centerfire cartidges for literally the same money and more reliable ignition. And .22LR is strictly for plinking. If that is okay for you then fine. But .22LR? NEVER for self defense. Ammo misfires are much too common.

And the KelTec bullpup? Oooooo.... looks nice, but fairly expensive for an unproven platform. If you have money to burn then I get it. Me want too.


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## dobbie (Dec 6, 2012)

Top Left, Beretta Vertec
Top Right, Ruger GP100
Middle Left, Government Series 80
Middle Right, Colt Gold Cup
Bottom Left, Colt Officers model
Bottom Right, Colt Combat Commander
Bottom, Custom Officers model


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## dobbie (Dec 6, 2012)

Ruger 10/22 on a custom stock
Remington 700 VS 308 Winchester
Remington 870 Wingmaster


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## RabidAlien (Dec 6, 2012)

Nice, all of em! Droolin over those 1911's!


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## mikewint (Dec 6, 2012)

With RA, I only had one and that was in the Army. Been looking at several at the gun shows but just the word COLT adds to the price. I like the fact that I could increase the size of the XDm's handle without having to go the custom route.
While waiting for the Luger I finally have a holster: Waffen SS Totenkopf division clam-shell style, small pocket in top for the take-down tool and interior leather strap is to pull the Luger out as it sits low and tight, longbox at the side is to hold an extra clip.
i sincerely hope no one is offended by the nazi symbols. These are history much as the decals we put on our WWII German aircraft


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## RabidAlien (Dec 7, 2012)

No offense here, Mike. Its an historical object, not a symbol of worship for you (we trust!). Agreed with your assessment of the word "Colt", though....wife and I found some Colt AR-15's at Cabelas in the used-guns rack last weekend, and the USED one (with no accessories, iron-sights only, 5.56) were $1600. The S&W MP-15 she's been wanting is half that price.


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## bobbysocks (Dec 7, 2012)

mike, that holster has to be a reproduction right? looks way too nice to be original.....wouldnt think there would be one that is that crisp and clean still out there,


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## javlin (Dec 7, 2012)

bobbysocks said:


> mike, that holster has to be a reproduction right? looks way too nice to be original.....wouldnt think there would be one that is that crisp and clean still out there,



The stitching looks to clean to my eyes.Also the Waffen stamp looks alittle off could be it's in leather weras I am use to looking at wood stamps.Looks cool though.


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## Matt308 (Dec 7, 2012)

RabidAlien said:


> No offense here, Mike. Its an historical object, not a symbol of worship for you (we trust!). Agreed with your assessment of the word "Colt", though....wife and I found some Colt AR-15's at Cabelas in the used-guns rack last weekend, and the USED one (with no accessories, iron-sights only, 5.56) were $1600. The S&W MP-15 she's been wanting is half that price.



Really!?!? Wow, I didn't know Colt commanded such a premium. I own two. An HBAR and an old shorty with collapsable stock. Put a ACOG on my HBAR and an EOTech Holosight on my 16in. Love them both, but I wouldn't mind a different brand at all for $500 to $600 less for a basic rifle.


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## Matt308 (Dec 7, 2012)

bobbysocks said:


> mike, that holster has to be a reproduction right? looks way too nice to be original.....wouldnt think there would be one that is that crisp and clean still out there,



At least not affordable. I was thinking the same thing. Even as a repro it sure would be a beauty.


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## Torch (Dec 7, 2012)

Ok don't make me post pics of my Scar 17,Ed Brown Special Forces 1911,Springfield TRP Tactical,Mossberg 930SPX, S&W M&P AR with a bunch of custom parts and a bunch of other "stuff"


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## RabidAlien (Dec 7, 2012)

Torch said:


> Ok don't make me post pics of my Scar 17,Ed Brown Special Forces 1911,Springfield TRP Tactical,Mossberg 930SPX, S&W M&P AR with a bunch of custom parts and a bunch of other "stuff"



Twist, twist......



Matt308 said:


> Really!?!? Wow, I didn't know Colt commanded such a premium. I own two. An HBAR and an old shorty with collapsable stock. Put a ACOG on my HBAR and an EOTech Holosight on my 16in. Love them both, but I wouldn't mind a different brand at all for $500 to $600 less for a basic rifle.



Yup. I know Colt is good, but that seemed a little steep to me. Although, as I said (I did, didn't I? Maybe I didn't ....who knows...been a long day), the whole thing was metal, no plastic on it that I could see. A good, solid, heavy rifle makes for a rough day of lugging, but a good, stable platform to burn powder through. The tag said it was a 5.56, but at that price, I could get a Beowulf in .50 cal.


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## Matt308 (Dec 7, 2012)

Torch said:


> Ok don't make me post pics of my Scar 17,Ed Brown Special Forces 1911,Springfield TRP Tactical,Mossberg 930SPX, S&W M&P AR with a bunch of custom parts and a bunch of other "stuff"



WTF... you talk about gun porn in such salacious ways and then deny us a visual for completion. How dare you sir. How dare you.


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## GrauGeist (Dec 8, 2012)

Torch said:


> Ok don't make me post pics of my Scar 17,Ed Brown Special Forces 1911,Springfield TRP Tactical,Mossberg 930SPX, S&W M&P AR with a bunch of custom parts and a bunch of other "stuff"


Being denied such a treat is hurtful, I say...just downright hurtful...


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## yulzari (Dec 8, 2012)

I don't know about all this modern stuff. I stick to my Chassepot and Snider and pine for a Baker or a Brunswick if the Green Man is generous.


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## Readie (Dec 8, 2012)

yulzari said:


> I don't know about all this modern stuff. I stick to my Chassepot and Snider and pine for a Baker or a Brunswick if the Green Man is generous.




We had my dad's ww2 luger he acquired in Italy at Monte Cassino in the airing cupboard for years...
I rather hoped it would stay there but, my brother was caught waving it about so...mum had a rush of conscience and handed it in.


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## GrauGeist (Dec 8, 2012)

Readie said:


> We had my dad's ww2 luger he acquired in Italy at Monte Cassino in the airing cupboard for years...
> I rather hoped it would stay there but, my brother was caught waving it about so...mum had a rush of conscience and handed it in.


Ouch!!


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## Matt308 (Dec 9, 2012)

Readie said:


> We had my dad's ww2 luger he acquired in Italy at Monte Cassino in the airing cupboard for years...
> I rather hoped it would stay there but, my brother was caught waving it about so...mum had a rush of conscience and handed it in.



I may to officially put that into the "What Annoyed Me Today" thread. That is a true shame. Hopefully your Mom just told you and your brother that and in fact just put it into a more discreet hidey-hole.


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## RabidAlien (Dec 9, 2012)

Found this news report this morning....this should DEFINITELY go into the "What Annoyed Me" thread: WW2 weapon turned in during gun buy-back program in CT (h/t to Lagniappe's Lair for ruining my day....er...posting it originally)

And so, with that, I post the following happy-happy thoughts to balance out the universe's karma:


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## Readie (Dec 9, 2012)

Matt308 said:


> I may to officially put that into the "What Annoyed Me Today" thread. That is a true shame. Hopefully your Mom just told you and your brother that and in fact just put it into a more discreet hidey-hole.



It was a few years ago Matt, its a shame as I wanted to keep as a memento...however,it may have been a blessing in disguise the British Police have a slightly different view on firearms than you guys....
Psst...mustn't mention the Thompson sub machine gun in the shed.
Cheers
John


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## mikewint (Dec 9, 2012)

What a terrible shame. That is/was a piece of history not "just" a gun. Reminds me of my mom who decided, while I was away at college, that my 300+ comic book collection dating from the 1950s was a "fire hazzard" as she put it


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## mikewint (Dec 9, 2012)

First, the holster is indeed a reproduction. Most actual period holsters, if affordable, were in poor shape and the nice ones were outrageously expensive. This one is very accurate, well made and affordable.
Second, the gunsmith has found this Luger to be in excellent internal condition with perhaps .002in wear or less and safe to fire. It is a composite Luger meaning all parts do not have matching serial numbers. The trigger axis and ammo clip have been replaced so do not match the “91” stamped on the other parts. The script DWM on the toggle, indicate the Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken company. DWM, owned by Jews, was liquidated in 1929 bought and purchased by Mauser. Thus this Luger was assembled by the Mauser company from parts made by DWM. On the side of the receiver are the inspection stamps. The first is for the receiver frame itself and the second is for the final assembly. These “stick eagle 63” acceptance stamps are for an inspector #63 (name unknown) who worked at the Mauser factory. The third and fourth stamps are the “straight wing eagle over swastika” style, a military proof stamp indicating the gun was accepted into military service. These straight wing eagle stamps replaced the “droop wing eagle” stamp beginning in April of 1939 which corresponds to the manufacture date of “1939” stamped on the top. The German word “Gesichert” safe or secured is visible thus the safety is on. The extractor catch is pushed up when a shell is in the chamber exposing the word “Geladen” laden or loaded, stamped on the side of the extractor. The walnut grips have been replaced by me as the originals were in poor shape. A previous owner had begun carving notches in them. An American GI “notching” his 6 gun perhaps?
In the world of Lugers this is not a valuable gun but to me, it is a piece of history. The date and military proof stamps indicate it played a part in WWII. If only it could talk. From the start of WWII to me in Arkansas quite a story.


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## GrauGeist (Dec 9, 2012)

That's a beautiful Luger, Mike! Definately a piece of history there.

We have two Lugers in the family, one is prewar and 100% factory original and the other is late war and has a few replacement parts over original and moderate signs of wear.

One thing I regret, is not having my Grandfather's Mauser L96...it was said to have been a beauty


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## bobbysocks (Dec 9, 2012)

any war version luger is worth it! matching serial numbers just makes it more collectable but any more accurate or reliable. like i said when composite guns started coming over in the mid to late 80s the 08s and 38s were going for ~$450. and up. the composite guns sold for ~$300 out the door so they were a hot seller. they sold out rather quickly so i am not sure as to exactly how many there actually were. Sarco or Numrich may be able say as they imported and sold a bunch of them. I know they werent available very long. thats one of the reasons i missed out..i waited. you have a fine piece there and with the eagle with swastika symbol it separates it from a vast majority of the other 08s out there.


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## RabidAlien (Dec 9, 2012)

Whew! Looks like an intelligent cop saved the day with that STG44: Cop saves StG 44 turned into gun buyback?'That belongs in a museum!' - Gun News at Guns.com


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## bobbysocks (Dec 9, 2012)

Wow!!!


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## mikewint (Dec 9, 2012)

Now that is a great story, a piece of history to be preserved and not just destroyed. It's corney but everytime I touch it I have to think of all the other hands that held it since 1939. What makes it even better is that it is a "shooter" not just a museum piece in a glass case.


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## bromhead (Dec 19, 2012)

12 guage hallway howitzer,,modf replica of a 1918 trench gun w bayonet,,1911 45


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## GrauGeist (Dec 19, 2012)

mikewint said:


> Now that is a great story, a piece of history to be preserved and not just destroyed. It's corney but everytime I touch it I have to think of all the other hands that held it since 1939. What makes it even better is that it is a "shooter" not just a museum piece in a glass case.


That's why I appreciate my 7x57 Mauser...it has had a long association of history as it happened during two world wars. Some people say "oh if this could talk"...honestly, I am glad this Mauser can't, because it's had a prime view of the uglier side of humanity.


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## mikewint (Dec 20, 2012)

Bromhead, please post a pic
Grau, while I understand your point, i would disagree to a point, War is also humankind at its best and nobleist. Where else do you see men falling on grenades, charging machineguns, ect. Early in Vietnam one of our camps was over run. The medic, a good friend had both legs blown off. He refused evac or treatment, except for having the Yards put belts on his stumps. He continued to direct medical treatment to the other wounded until he bled out.


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## Matt308 (Dec 20, 2012)

Lord...


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## GrauGeist (Dec 20, 2012)

I see your point, Mike...but warfare overall is a nasty business and there are occasions when men rise above and beyond the din to accomplish feats that would rarely happen in times of peace.

When my Mauser was brand shiny new, it entered service during the twilight of the old-world military disclipline and finished it's service at the dawn of a modern military disclipline. The forestock is forever blood-darkened from bayonette use, the bolt and reciever is blood etched and the butt and cheeckstock is distorted and dented from countless helmet impacts when it was used as a club. It's certainly an old warrior and has infinite stories to tell, you can just imagine by looking at it...but like I mentioned before, I'm glad it's kept those stories locked away in it's wood and steel


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## Matt308 (Dec 20, 2012)

Just curious... how do you discern a 70 year old stain on a wooden stock and coloration on hardened steel to be blood and wood dents to be barbaric evidence of last of life fighting. I too have relic firearms.

No offense meant.


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## GrauGeist (Dec 20, 2012)

No prob, Matt 

I never paid much attention to the darkened portions of the wood, since it had an overall dark apearance anyway. It wasn't until I broke it down completely to refinish the stock, that I realized why the foreward portion was so dark. When we seperated the upper from the lower, it had dried blood beneath the bayonette lug reinforcing ring and beneath the two portions of the stock (dried blood being caked between the upper and lower stock portions) up to about an inch foreward of the sling ring/lock assemby. Where the barrel had been exposed to the caked blood, also left the steel darkened in an uneven pattern, but matched exactly, the caked blood, where it had worked in. A portion of the bolt/receiver (right side, rearward) has similiar markings that descended below and into the stock for a shot distance, though it wasn't as thick and and pronounced as the forestock. I did find some very light rust around the internal mag's "trap door" but this was a thin haze, and typical reddish/orange in color.
The rest over the steel is in overall good shape, no rust pitting, the bluing having been worn thin with the passage of time (we've used this as a hunter for many years) and it hasn't been exposed to any extreme weather or abuse since it came home with my Great Uncle Carl from Europe, 1945.


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## Matt308 (Dec 22, 2012)

If that is so, too bad you have destroyed all historical significance by using it as a hunter "for many years". At least she isn't a safe queen.


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## javlin (Dec 22, 2012)

Matt308 said:


> If that is so, too bad you have destroyed all historical significance by using it as a hunter "for many years". At least she isn't a safe queen.



How's that Matt?I would feel that as long as the rifle has not been modified it still has reverance.Shooting a gun does not harm it value in most cases still being functional increases the value.I have had this same discussion about my G43 it needs to be recrowned but about 50% take the position against that while others have weighed in it does not affect the value.I never did the recrown left as is I rarely shoot her except to show off at times


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## GrauGeist (Dec 23, 2012)

I know of alot of weapons that came out of the war that were modified or "sporterized" in one way or another. I suppose everyone though there was either an unlimited supply of surplus rifles/pistols or they didn't care. The same can be said for the aircraft, vehicles as well.

This Mauser hasn't been modified in any way, it has been missing it's cleaning rod for over 60 years and never had a sling that we know of. The rear sling ring was damaged ages ago and needs replacing, but other than that, it looks the same now as it did in family photos from the 50's 60's.

If it's any consolation, I didn't refinish the stock as I had intended. After opening her up and seeing all that, I checked all the metal surfaces and did some light cleaning and put her back together. 

I don't hunt with the old girl any more...haven't since the mid 90's though I do occasionally take it down to the range and run some rounds through it. I will also say that for it's age and what's it's endured, it is still deadly accurate and delivers a hell of a punch to it's target.


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## Jack_Hill (Dec 23, 2012)

Hi GrauGeist,
Did your Mauser (98K ?, cannot access pics anymore, sorry), insured hunting duty for years without any complete stripping and inner parts greasing/integrity checking before you did ?


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## bromhead (Dec 23, 2012)

mikewint said:


> Bromhead, please post a pic
> Grau, while I understand your point, i would disagree to a point, War is also humankind at its best and nobleist. Where else do you see men falling on grenades, charging machineguns, ect. Early in Vietnam one of our camps was over run. The medic, a good friend had both legs blown off. He refused evac or treatment, except for having the Yards put belts on his stumps. He continued to direct medical treatment to the other wounded until he bled out.


 
My platoon medic was one of the bravest men imaginable,,risking everything when evacs couldnt get in to an LZ,,keeping people alive with desperate skill,a silver star was small compensation,,well done doc johnson


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## mikewint (Dec 23, 2012)

Grau, what a treasure you have I hope you keep it and pass it on
Javilin, take a true historic gun and changing it in any way changes its value to any collector. My Colt SAA if left intact would have been worth thousands but once modernized to make it shootable the value decreased many fold, the Luger has 2 non-matching parts turning it into a functional arm and destroying its value as a collectors piece. None of this mattered to me as I am not a collector. I want to shoot my guns. One does not take a 3.5 million dollar .45 Luger and shoot it


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## GrauGeist (Dec 23, 2012)

Jack_Hill said:


> Hi GrauGeist,
> Did your Mauser (98K ?, cannot access pics anymore, sorry), insured hunting duty for years without any complete stripping and inner parts greasing/integrity checking before you did ?


Oh she's been well taken care of and has been to a family friend who's a gunsmith over the years. It hasn't had a military round through it in years, although we've been assured the chamber/reciever bolt can handle it. I've always used Norma or Remington ammo (and once in a great while, Hornady) and as always, she gets a thorough cleaning before being put back into the cabinet after a workout. 

And Mike, I rarely trade or sell off a weapon but family pieces are never negotiated! I have several family heirlooms (this rifle, my Grandmother's 1917 Savage .32, my Dad's M1 .30 Carbine, etc.) but sadly enough, I don't have a son to pass them on...I have a daughter, but that's not even a consideration (for other reasons)...but I think I still have a little time to figure that out 

And I might mention that there's two rifles that I don't fire, one is a Texas Ranger's commerotive .30-30 Winchester, NIB and has never been fired and a mid-serial Rockola M1 .30 carbine. These remain tucked away, only to see the light of day once in a blue moon when it's time to show off for a moment and then back to the darkness once again!


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## mikewint (Dec 24, 2012)

Grau. that is really fantastic, I truely hope you find some way to pass all this down in your family to people who respect what these stand for not just a quick buck on Ebay. It is always sad when I see these estate sales of WWI, WWII, Vietnam Vets. The same here, I doubt any of my kids would keep and respect all the things I brought back. Tried several museums but no real interest other than, "ya will take it but...". Same for the guns and planes, sad


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## javlin (Dec 24, 2012)

I tried loaning my G43 to the D-Day museum in N.Orleans sent them picks and info on the gun for they did not have one in the whole collection and not a peep??I was talking to the history teacher from USM down the street and he mentioned unless you are willing to donate they probably would not be interested


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## vikingBerserker (Dec 24, 2012)

Man, that really stinks!


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## GrauGeist (Dec 24, 2012)

I loaned my 1893 Marlin .30-30 to a museum ages ago for an exhibit they had on the "gold rush" era of California history...it was short-term, lasting as long as the exhibit.

From what I understand, museums this day and age don't want loaners because of liability, at least this is what I've heard from a few sources, but this isn't speaking for all of them.


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## mikewint (Dec 25, 2012)

I offered a complete no strings donation. I just wanted to know that the items would actually be put on display and not just sit in a back room for years in some box and then disappear. No takers.


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## Jack_Hill (Dec 25, 2012)

Not sure my post is not out of subject, but talking about collections and museums i'd ask :
Wich guns DID we owned ?
Considering my Country, we had (at least) two marvels that vanished in stupid ways...
First was a private collection, earned years after years, with considerable efforts, time and money by one single, local, passionnate and simple man.
The visit was hazardous, for the collection was in the backyard (huge, clean, fully enlighted, heated hangar) of the owner's cafe. (Yes, a cafe)
If the cafe was opened, visiting was possible.
If not, well,... Try again...
Place is called Givet, French Ardennes (Bulge).
Last visited in 89/90 winter.
Inside was : one working Sd.kfz 151.
-Two (2!!!) Mp 43 (prototypes).
-One complete infrared sighted Stg44 (prototype).
-One bit scattered but complete radar aimed (cupola) 2cm Flakvierling (prototype).
-An incredible (10,15, do not remember) collection of complete, from brand new to war weared m44 dot combat suits, each complete with full weaponery and accessories.
And much more stuffs, all from battle of the Bulge.
The old man sold the whole collection and the bar.
Did ministries of defence or culture even offered a dime to keep the collection home, I don't know.
Over...
Second : France owns some Pzkpfw V Panthers. At Saumur's Musée des blindés: 1 under restoration project for,soon I hope, full working condition,1 restored (static) Jagdpanther and, afaik, 3 other Panthers waiting for restoration.
Ummmmm, sry, not 3 anymore, only two indeed, for our ex-president self decided an "exchange" (for a Centurion) of one of our (national property, and wich Ausf and s/n is still a mistery) panther to Prince or king of Jordania in 2011.
Over...


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## mikewint (Dec 25, 2012)

What is important is that they are on display and not being cut up for scrap. At and during the war, many, many captured German tanks, planes, etc. were shipped to the Aberdeen Proving ground for testing after which many were destroyed. I know the old must make way for the new but it's a sad loss.
Recently a local moron threatened to kill his wife. The police raided his house and found 47 guns valued at about half a million dollars. Wonder how many will "get lost"


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## bobbysocks (Dec 25, 2012)

there is no reason for scrapping ac to make room. take the thing out to the desert where it can sit unmolested for years and still be able to be made flight worthy. ya never know when you may want to look at something again just for the heck of it....


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## ToughOmbre (Mar 4, 2013)

It wasn't easy, but I finally was able to buy a rifle to complement my M1 Garand.

Other than the stock, hand guards and obviously not full auto, it's just about identical to the M-16 I lugged thru basic in 1971.

Steve


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## yulzari (Mar 5, 2013)

Not entrely on topic, but I have tried all sorts of other forums (fora, forae?) with no result.

I bought cheaply a Remington model 1863 Rifle Musket (commonly called Zouave in modern times) made in Italy but nobody seems to know the manufacturer. No name. Italian proofed and marked 'Made in Italy'. It has a wierd lock that I suspect the manufacturer took out of his pistol production line. Beech stock in 2 pieces, dividing under the rear band.

It is fine to use except the half **** is only just off the nipple.

Does anyone recognise the logo on the barrel?


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## meatloaf109 (Mar 5, 2013)

Looks like it might be a Pietta imported by Navy Arms from the '70's. Can you post a couple more pictures. 
Looking for the tang on the barrell and a possible eagle stamp on the lock plate.
If you haven't fired it yet, DON'T. There is a possible danger concerned with some Pietta Zuave .58's


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## yulzari (Mar 5, 2013)

Hello meatloaf109, thank you for the reply.

I have never seen a Fratelli Pietta logo like this one. Normally they have the initials FAP inside a diamond outline and the Pietta name stamped alongside. 

Like most Remington 1863 replicas it has the Remington style eagle on the lock plate. This one was sold in France and is dated 1980. The lock is weird but works adequately and the barrel is proofed (Gaderone) unlike US guns.

What was the problem with the 1970's Pietta Remington 1863s?


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## meatloaf109 (Mar 5, 2013)

Blowing apart where the tang fastens to the barrell.
I was in a re-enactors group in California many years ago, the Pietta Zauve was banned from use because of an incident in another group. One guy had the barrell seperate at the butt-end. Shattered the stock.


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## yulzari (Mar 5, 2013)

Curious it didn't happen at the proofing. As far as I am aware (and I can be corrected) all guns made in Italy have to pass an independent proof house test before they can be sold internally or for export. Here in France USA guns have to be proofed at St. Etienne as there is no independent proofing in the USA.

I wasn't aware Pietta made rifles. Though gunmaking in Brescia is a somewhat incestuous tangle of history. I have been told that the Navy Arms Remington 1863s were bought in from another factory by the exporter to Navy Arms.


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## meatloaf109 (Mar 5, 2013)

Could be. My memory isn't what it was. This was over twenty years ago, alot has happened since then. I know it was a Zauve .58, could be wrong about the Pietta.
Anyways, be careful!


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## mikewint (Mar 5, 2013)

Unless it is a NIB gun I never shoot it unless and until it has been checked by a competent gunsmith. It's not free but a small price to pay to not have a gun blowup in your face. That old Luger was in for a week being checked 6 ways from Sunday before I fired one round through it


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## meatloaf109 (Mar 5, 2013)

Good advice!


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## mikewint (Mar 5, 2013)

Dad had a 10ga single barrel goose gun that had been his father's. The barrel was Damascus wire and designed for black powder, but we never dared to shoot it


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## Matt308 (Mar 6, 2013)

mikewint said:


> I offered a complete no strings donation. I just wanted to know that the items would actually be put on display and not just sit in a back room for years in some box and then disappear. No takers.



Deaccession. Happens all the frickin' time.


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## GrauGeist (Mar 6, 2013)

mikewint said:


> Dad had a 10ga single barrel goose gun that had been his father's. The barrel was Damascus wire and designed for black powder, but we never dared to shoot it


We had an old Knockerbocker side-by-side 12 gauge damascus twist and we had low pressure RWS blackpowder rounds for it...didn't fire it all that often, but it was fun to take out once in a while


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## mikewint (Mar 7, 2013)

Matt, really took me aback. went to several museums in Ill. and the Branson museum no one cared. Didn't expect them to jump up and down but.. Even found things mis-ID. A polite but disinterested: "well, we'll look into it"
Yea we talked about too but no gunsmith would certify it without extensive x-rays which were very expensive so, a very large paperweiht


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## meatloaf109 (Mar 7, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> We had an old Knockerbocker side-by-side 12 gauge damascus twist and we had low pressure RWS blackpowder rounds for it...didn't fire it all that often, but it was fun to take out once in a while


I have had so many different firearms pass through my hands over the years. I remember a doublebarrel Damascus wire-wound that I sold to a guy as a wall hanger, on the promise that he would never fire it. I specifically told him not to fire it and true to form he did. Sometimes you can't tell a fool anything. I heard that he still has two fingers on his right hand.


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## mikewint (Mar 8, 2013)

Yup, one little kink and the gases and corrosion start working their way through, then BANG!


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## mikewint (Mar 22, 2013)

More Gun Show Booty: Went to the local Gun Show at the begining of March and picked up a Ruger Super Blackhawk Bisley SA revolver in .44 magnum "the world's most powerful handgun" as Dirty Harry put it (Harry's was a S&W model 29). No longer true, with the advent of the .454 Casull and .500 S&W the .44 Mag has been left in the dust. Still it hits with twice the force of the .45 ACP or Long Colt. .45 ACP(ball FMJ): 352 ft-lbs(477J); .45 ACP(JHP) 518 ft-lbs(702J); .44 Mag: 1200 ft-lbs(1600J); .454 Casull: 1900 ft-lbs(2607J); and .500 S&W 3000 ft-lbs(4109J).
For anyone not familiar with American ammunition I've made up a side-by-side comparison using actual ammo. Note the nine millimeter Luger for comparison


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## Matt308 (Mar 22, 2013)

Nice find. And she looks like she was babied to boot. But not for me, Mr. Flinch. In .44Mag all I see is Bisley grip, smooth furniture, that sharp hammer and my sweaty mitts. She sure is pretty though. Never have seen a Bisley Blackhawk. Really graceful lines and you'll never wear out a Blackhawk that is for sure.


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## mikewint (Mar 22, 2013)

Thanks Matt, but you'd be surprised, that Bisley grip puts the recoil straight into the palm it's about the same as my .45 SSA and like the .357/.38 Special combo you can always shoot .44 S&W which give the same energy as a .45 ACP so much less recoil. Also the super Blackhawk is all steel so it's heavy, 52 oz.(1.5 kg) Strangely the .44 S&W loads are more expensive.


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## Readie (Mar 22, 2013)

Can you literally just buy any gun you want too in the USA?


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## Matt308 (Mar 22, 2013)

YES WE CAN!!! BWAHHHAAAAHAHAAAHAAAAHAAAA!


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## Matt308 (Mar 22, 2013)

Uhm... I'm sorry. Yes sir we can. Well at least for the most part. You must pass a federal gov't background check and pseudo-register the firearm in question. Then individual states have their own laws. Example Kalifornia says that you can only have a 10rd mag, does not allow "sniper" rifle calibers and other such nonsensical legistlation. But for the most part, if you keep your nose clean and stay out of jail, you can virtually own most any small arms. Hollywood type stuff like full auto rifles/pistols require a MUCH more extensive background check and a much larger "tax" for each item owned.

Here in the US silencers are considered verboten without the above "sin" taxes assigned, wherein the EU they are encouraged to be polite to your neighbors. Go figure.

I would love to own a Thompson M1A1 .45cal SMG with a short barrel. But here in the states it must have at least a 16in barrel to avoid the above sin tax. Blasphemy! I don't want one that bad. Well I do, but I have limited WAF funds and gun safe space.


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## mikewint (Mar 22, 2013)

Readie, Matt said it all. Illinois and Washington D.C. have the strictest gun control laws in the USA. My old home state Illinois requires every gun owner to have a F.O.I.D. (Firearm Owner's IDentification) card. You must have a valid card to buy any gun or ammunition in the state. Many states are now selling hand guns only to residents of the state. Arkansas used to sell to any resident of any stat that bordered on Arkansas but that has now changed. To buy a hand gun in Arknsas from a dealer at a gun show you must have a valid Arkansas drivers license. If the dealer holds an FFL (Federal Firearm License) then he/she must do a backround check and the buyer must fill out an application form. There are no controls on one person selling to another. As far as silencers and/or fully automatic firearms you must pay a $200 transfer fee and the sheriff of your county must sign off on it. If the sheriff refuses then (in Arkansas) the gun/silencer can be held by a legal trust and you get to use it.
Needless to say there are many ways to make silencers and on the old AR-15s a bit of work with a file easily converts to full auto, and a hacksaw can make a barrel any length. All highly illegal to say the least


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## bobbysocks (Mar 24, 2013)

short barrels..were only a $5.00 tax...at least back when i was selling them. they were considered NFA ( national firearms act ) weapons...under the heading of "any other weapon". you still had to jump through all the same hoops....chief law enforcement officer ( usually the sheriff ) had to sign off with his blessings, you had to be fingerprinted ( 2 separate cards ), 2 pictures for the application, and that all went to the FBI for a background check. but were machineguns and silencers were a $200. transfer tax each...converting something to a short barrel...( under 16" ) was only $5. i was always tempted to make a sawed off double barrelled shotgun.

a company back in the 80s made a snap on adapter you put on your barrel that you could screw a 2 liter bottle on. they say it gives you almost the same results as a silencer...for 1 round. i never tried it out. early AR 15s were easy to convert...there was a trick using a cut up credit card that held back the disconnect. later SWD in atlanta made a steel version of these "lightening links" and sold them as machineguns. but they would only work on 1st generation ARs. they changed the inside of the lower reciever so you supposedly couldnt convert them.


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## mikewint (Mar 24, 2013)

Hi Bobby, hoped you'd join in. Look up Solvent Trap. Dontcha just love human ingenuity!! Any competent gunsmith can convert to full auto though it requires a bit of skilled machining. Full auto is great as long as Uncle Sam supplies the ammo. 1000 rounds of .223 goes for $520 at the last gun show.
Barrel length (16in) is only for rifles/shotguns. Pistols can hav barrels of any length: Sold as PISTOLES - The Rossi Ranch Hand, Kimbers Excel-30, and Matt's favorite Auto Ordnance Thompson pistol with barrels from 12 - 10in


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## Matt308 (Mar 24, 2013)

Pistol-rifles don't interest me. I do love me an M1A1 Thompson, but I have to have a stock and short barrel. I have come close many a times to making that purchase. I need to buy another safe first though. That is what motivates me to kill the sale. No room.


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## bobbysocks (Mar 24, 2013)

full auto isnt for the thrifty that's for sure. you can burn up a couple hundred dollars in minutes....especially with the price of ammo these days. i havent shot mine in years. replacing the ammo i have would cost a small fortune. will be interesting to see what happens after we bug out of all these places and there is a SURPLUS!. yeah pistols can be any length basically...BUT you cannot put a shoulder stock on it. it is how the gun was originally manufactured when the serial number was registered. if it was a rifle then to take the barrel below 16.1" you would have to go the NFA paperwork route. am wondering how they got away with lever action in the first pic. they ( ATF ) usually likes less of a stock on that that. sweet little piece though.


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## Geedee (Mar 25, 2013)

Never actually owned a real gun, at least not one that goes bang and does some damage umpteen hundred yards away. 

This is my current babe, she's a .177 Relum air rifle of unknown age ( and yup, I need to find some-one who can remove the surface corrosion and re-blue the barrel at a reasonable price) that I've owned for the past 30 odd years. I left her with my brother in-law when I moved to Cyprus in 2000 for three years and when I came back, she was rusty and the pillock had left her 'cocked' for who knows how long.

This last weekend, at a local aerojumble, I scored a cooling barrel for a .50 cal. I can now start to make a mock-up of the type of .50 used in the fighters to go with my '51

And then I thought...what the h*ll, lets just add the two together...should at least scare the local rabbits a bit more


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## Readie (Mar 25, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> ...wherein the EU they are encouraged to be polite to your neighbors. Go figure.



haha...don't bet on that. There are other ways to settle disputes that involve almost as much damage as a bullet (s)....not as fatal granted but, points need to made sometimes.


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## Readie (Mar 25, 2013)

mikewint said:


> Readie, Matt said it all. Illinois and Washington D.C. have the strictest gun control laws in the USA. My old home state Illinois requires every gun owner to have a F.O.I.D. (Firearm Owner's IDentification) card. You must have a valid card to buy any gun or ammunition in the state. Many states are now selling hand guns only to residents of the state. Arkansas used to sell to any resident of any stat that bordered on Arkansas but that has now changed. To buy a hand gun in Arknsas from a dealer at a gun show you must have a valid Arkansas drivers license. If the dealer holds an FFL (Federal Firearm License) then he/she must do a backround check and the buyer must fill out an application form. There are no controls on one person selling to another. As far as silencers and/or fully automatic firearms you must pay a $200 transfer fee and the sheriff of your county must sign off on it. If the sheriff refuses then (in Arkansas) the gun/silencer can be held by a legal trust and you get to use it.
> Needless to say there are many ways to make silencers and on the old AR-15s a bit of work with a file easily converts to full auto, and a hacksaw can make a barrel any length. All highly illegal to say the least



Thanks Mike. We have a consignment of Glock pistols floating about that no one seems to know anything about....slightly worrying.
The terrorists here do a fair job with diesel fertiliser and a detonater. But, that is another subject.
Like most chaps I would like to own a classic gun but, the laws here make it virtually impossible.
Maybe with out beer fuelled culture its not such a bad idea eh.
Cheers
John


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## mikewint (Mar 25, 2013)

Bobby, can't answer except several companies make them, Henry's version is the Mare's leg pistol in .45 Colt, .357 Mag, or .44 Mag all have 10.5 in barrels and like any good pistol a holster. Every one at the show said simply, "It's a pistol"
Gary - Do it your self. You can get wet/dry sandpaper in various grades. Use a coarse like 800 then work your way up 1200 or higher. If you have a bench grinder get a polishing wheel and various polishing compounds again, work your way up to the finest grades. Gun blue can be found at any gun shop. Make sure the metal is CLEAN and apply. Take your time and it will look 1000% better.
Matt - that's a 10.5 in barrel. Look at the end. That is where a stock can be attached just like on the full sized Thompsons


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## Matt308 (Mar 29, 2013)

Yeah but I follow the law. Because The Eye never sleeps. Don't forget that. I assure you that Readie's post has had an official perusal.


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## bobbysocks (Mar 31, 2013)

hmmm too many catch words in the same message.....got to watch that...lol.


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## Matt308 (Mar 31, 2013)

.


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## mikewint (Apr 1, 2013)

I expect, George Orwell was just 30 years early


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## Matt308 (Apr 1, 2013)

Call me paranoid (as my own IT people keep key logger information on me and my fellow workers), but don't think for a second that a gov't supercomputer is not reading all posts and monitoring all voice conversations. I've been in your typical local communication provider switch bunker and have first hand knowledge of how easy each individual call is able to be intercepted. Just wait until we go voice-over-IP (VoIP) as the norm. We are almost there gents. Almost there...


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## mikewint (Apr 3, 2013)

Matt, don't think you are overly paranoid but Big Brother's ability to monitor every communication is still limited. High speed computers look for keywords/phrases and then refer to human operators. The main concern is to attract Big Brother's attention in the first place. Now if this were a political site... Still the way in which 90% use their open broadcast cell phones is amazing. Reminds me of a tent campground where people get behind a 1/16 in of canvas and behave as if it were a 2X4 wall. Fairly simple Radio Shack scanners easily pick up cell phone or home wireless phone conversations.
Posted these guns on another thread but thought I'd put then here too. These are my concealed-carry guns: Ruger's LC9-LM 9mm 7 round auto with integrated red laser. The clip has a replaceable bottomwhich then gives a nice extension for the little finger.
For real concealment: Cobra's 9mm two-shot Derringer. Barrels are automatically selected. Trigger pull was very hard o I had work done on it to cut the pull in half. Kicks like a mule but deadly with in 10-12ft


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## Matt308 (Apr 4, 2013)

I've always liked those derringers. I used to think that they would be too punishing due to their inherent light weight. They aren't as light as they look, especially in larger calibers. I'll stick to my deep concealment Colt Mustang in .380ACP. Disappears in a pocket or ankle holster really well.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 4, 2013)

Just picked up a Baretta 96A1, .40 S&W


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## Matt308 (Apr 4, 2013)

I have one I bought in the late 1990's. Of all the semi-handguns I own, that Beretta has the slickest action by far. Just slightly too big for my hands though to get a proper trigger position in DAO. Good on you Adler! Nice one!! Get extra mags if you can find them.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 4, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> I have one I bought in the late 1990's. Of all the semi-handguns I own, that Beretta has the slickest action by far. Just slightly too big for my hands though to get a proper trigger position in DAO. Good on you Adler! Nice one!! Get extra mags if you can find them.



It came with 3, which is good as they are like 50 bucks a pop.

Ammo is the real problem. All I can get is hollow point.


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## Matt308 (Apr 4, 2013)

No worries about that. Can't go wrong with a .40 hollowpoint. I think you will find that ball will not be that much less expensive, unless your hollowpoint is top shelf. Lovely gun. My gun only came with two at the time. Clinton was on the gun ban agenda at the time and magazines were scarce.


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## Torch (Apr 5, 2013)

Nice,picked a 92fs recently, Check out the D spring and skeleton hammer conversion,sweetens the pull alot. Plus VZ G10 grips make a difference.


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## Matt308 (Apr 5, 2013)

Torch, the tactical slant grips interest me. Do they make a difference in the grip circumference?


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## Torch (Apr 5, 2013)

I would say very little difference between the VZ's and plastic,maybe a tad thinner(VZ) but the VZ's have more grip,way thinner than the factory wood grips. I have G10's of various styles on different guns. On the 92fs I have dark cherry/black,think they look pretty nice also.


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## Matt308 (Apr 5, 2013)

Hmmmm... I was hoping my rather smallish hands might benefit from a reduced circumference. I like the idea of a more aggressive grip as I have sweaty paws, but a reduction in circumference is my first priority with my 92FS. Dang it. I saw a Youtube video of the golfball version and it sure looked like the grip panels were much thinner. I think I need to pull my Beretta out of the safe and give 'er a look for a better comparison.

Still haven't found a reason yet to change my first choice from my Glocks. I have a Gen 1 G17 9mm that I put skateboard tape on the front, back and side panels. Believe you me, that baby is anchored from shot to shot. Not good though for concealment, as the skateboard tape will eat up clothing immediately. She's my house gun. My 2nd Gen G22 .40cal is stock and a bit slick. I used to use Hogue rubber finger grooves, but removed them. They tend to move during extended firing and I was irritated to have to adjust them every so often (50-100shots and adjustment only took about 2sec, but still irritated me). I like the Gen 4 grips, but know some who do not claiming they are too aggressive.

My infatuation for the day is the new 1.28in width G30S .45ACP, 10rd single stack, short grip frame. Me likey.


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## Torch (Apr 5, 2013)

In my head I think it feels thinner,I have a normal hand but short fingers,pain in the butt to find gloves that fit, but with the addition of the grips,ss guide rod,D spring,skeleton hammer and looking into a new trigger that supposedly shortens the trigger pull i'm happy the way it turned out...


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## javlin (Apr 12, 2013)

I use to own a BM 59 sold in 2007 needed funds for the shop was #000186(semi) always regretted it esp. in the last couple of years the prices are peaking.Well I stumbled across this and go no way?A Class III select fire for $6995 now granted first thing I go look for is the cutout in the stock(R/S) it's there but not really anything I would say is a lever I underatand but it's being noted on a Form 3.A couple three years ago M2 carbines were running $5-6K somthing does not add up a select fire BM59 should be $11-14K and no post 86 or LE only mentioned either.

Beretta, Model BM 59, .308 (One of original 300 by Beretta) - Beretta Rifles


My old rifle.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 13, 2013)

Was not able to try out my new gun last week. Will be 100% heading to the range tomorrow with a friend to shoot. Can't wait! Been a long time since I have lived in a place where you can own firearms.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 13, 2013)

Well put the first 36 rounds through it. I would have fired more, but ammo is very scarce at the moment. Fired great. Very smooth action and very easy to control. A very well made handgun. 

My friend brought out his M1911 as well. Very nice gun. I will be getting one as well. 

Very nice gun club and range as well. I will become a member as soon as I get off of this shift in June and can attend the New Members briefing. Will be very good as well because they offer training classes that my wife can go to. That way she can get better familiar with handling and shooting guns. She shot my Beretta this morning. Fired a few rounds, and seemed to be able to handle it pretty well.


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## javlin (Apr 15, 2013)

So I got my answer on the Bm59 she does go F/A the selector is on the L/S like much like your M2 carbine up front of the bolt as seen here.The guys on the MG forum also commented how the price is right.


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## Matt308 (Apr 15, 2013)

So what is your fricken [email protected]@[email protected]?

Sounds like you have a new mistress. Bring 'er home man!


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## bobbysocks (Apr 16, 2013)

308/7.62NATO is a B!T<# in full auto unless you have it on a bi-pod. i have a G3 and there is no way you are hitting anything with more than 1 bullit in the standing position unless you are some big ass bruiser. now put it on a bi-pod and you can write your name with it. 7.62 x 39 russian may be a lot easier...never fired one full auto. as much as i didnt like 5.56 its a way better FA/3 rd burst round to control. if you are thinking of buying a full auto there are a lot of things to keep in mind...besides the hoops you are going to have to jump through and the cost of ammo. you can burn up $500 in less than 10 minutes. when the final sale goes through you are agreeing to keep the gun locked up where only you have access...AND you give authorities 24/7/365 access to your house without a warrant ( if it involves this firearm ). other than that they are a blast...lierally and figuritively....and actually a great investment...providing they arent confiscated sometime in the future.


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## javlin (Apr 16, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> So what is your fricken [email protected]@[email protected]?
> 
> Sounds like you have a new mistress. Bring 'er home man!



 I hear ya brother wish I had the funds.



bobbysocks said:


> 308/7.62NATO is a B!T<# in full auto unless you have it on a bi-pod. i have a G3 and there is no way you are hitting anything with more than 1 bullit in the standing position unless you are some big ass bruiser. now put it on a bi-pod and you can write your name with it. 7.62 x 39 russian may be a lot easier...never fired one full auto. as much as i didnt like 5.56 its a way better FA/3 rd burst round to control. if you are thinking of buying a full auto there are a lot of things to keep in mind...besides the hoops you are going to have to jump through and the cost of ammo. you can burn up $500 in less than 10 minutes. when the final sale goes through you are agreeing to keep the gun locked up where only you have access...AND you give authorities 24/7/365 access to your house without a warrant ( if it involves this firearm ). other than that they are a blast...lierally and figuritively....and actually a great investment...providing they arent confiscated sometime in the future.



This rifle has the built in bi-pod and grenade launcher Bobby I have to agree that three shot burst is about all you really need or can place in a .308.I have heard stories about the open door policy you have with Feds/PD not always pleasant.The part about confiscation could be in the works just can't see our gubernment being that stupid but then that has not stopped them in the past with some of the programs they have implemented.


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## vikingBerserker (Apr 16, 2013)

Dam, I never get to keep a grenade launcher!


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## fubar57 (Apr 20, 2013)

Don't know if this posted here yet...H&K conference room.






Geo


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## mikewint (Apr 21, 2013)

Fubar, pretty cool, wonder if they are real or just mock-ups?
GUN SHOW BOOTY: Got a deal I could not pass-up. Really did not want another caliber to try to find ammo for but the .40 S&W was plentiful and amazingly cheap. Paid $459 for the S&W M&P (Military/Police). Polymer except for te slide which is stainless steel. Was very light until I got home and loaded the ciips which hold 15 rounds!! Three clips and you have almost a box of .40 S&W rounds which were only $16 at the show. Bought every box they had, sadly still NO .22 LR or WMR. Sights front and rear are dove-tail but not adjustible except for windage so Trijcon sights on order. Full Pick rail think I'll add a light to this one rather than the laser but they had a new laser sight at the show called "Center of Mass" which projects a center dot surrounded by a circle of dots. Really like the wave-pattern grooves on the slide, very easy to grip. Lastly "Made in the USA" Springfields .45 is now made in Croatia!!


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## tyrodtom (Apr 21, 2013)

It's pretty pathedic when a gun manufactor has to print that caution on the slide.
But there are a lot of gun accidents because a lot of gun owners do seem to forget that fact.


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## mikewint (Apr 21, 2013)

People do unbelievable dumbsh*t ALL the time. Adding to the confusion are those who load "one in the pipe" and the guns that come with a magazine safety preventing the gun from being fired with the mag removed. Plain and simple guns are NEVER safe unless in pieces


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 21, 2013)

I need to hit up a gun show. Maybe I can find some .40 S&W ammo there. 

Here it it is so scarce, and if found very expensive.


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## javlin (Apr 21, 2013)

mikewint said:


> People do unbelievable dumbsh*t ALL the time. Adding to the confusion are those who load "one in the pipe" and the guns that come with a magazine safety preventing the gun from being fired with the mag removed. Plain and simple guns are NEVER safe unless in pieces



Mike that is a nice piece brother the MHP cut some loose about 5yrs ago in blue and stainless w/stainless going at the shop for $400!Target shooting I am sure was all they had in immaculate condition.I have a fellow worker you does that and with a Glock!I have a mag in but nothing chambered it only takes a fraction of a second to make that happen whether the M1 carbine or the .45.The fella I am talking about is an x-Marine with a CCW and he claims he feels secure but then again he is single and no children.

Chris it is getting tuff bud to fine ammo if it was not for me stock piling brass,lead,powder and etc. years ago I be in the same boat.I am sitting on a good stash and still able to make 2000 more rds of .30 if need be.


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## mikewint (Apr 21, 2013)

Javilin, the 40M&P is a Glock except for some cosmetic changes. S W got their butts sued by Glock over the clones. One really nice addition is that the back-strap is removable and can be replaced with bigger or smaller units to fit just about any hand size (take note Matt). I've got the large installed and it is a perfect fit for my big hand. The barrel axis is also very low putting the recoil straight into your hand/arm thus very little muzzle rise.
Pennsylvania State Police ordered about a 1000 then their funds got cut. He had several of those but wanted $560 each. Nice looking and had the badges engraved on the slide. I still like the black


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## Bucksnort101 (Apr 22, 2013)

Picked up a new Ruger Single Ten .22 on Friday. Needs a good cleaning though, she's a tad bit dirty from the factory. Stood around the dealer for 20 minutes or so while they looked for the box. Could not find it so they threw in a nice little pistol case for no cost. They are calling Ruger to have a box, manual, and the rest of the goodies that should have come with it sent to me.
While waiting, a pretty young gal came in and picked up a Barret .50 cal Rifle. Now there's something you don't see every day. Shop guy said her boyfriend was in twice the day before to look it over. They also had 400 rounds on .50 cal ammo on order! And I had a hard time handing over the cash for my little .22!

Also managed to pick up 400 rounds of .22lr ammo at Cabela's on Saturday. That is the most scarce ammo out there. Had to make 4 trips into the store, as they only allowed 100 round per customer. Bought a pack of ammo, ran out to the vehicle, then back and forth 3 more times.


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## Torch (Apr 22, 2013)

Nice you will enjoy the M&P. Have an FNH FX 45 on layaway,15rds of 45 should be fun.


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## vikingBerserker (Apr 22, 2013)

Does anybody reload their pistol ammo (or can you reload them)?


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## Bucksnort101 (Apr 22, 2013)

vikingBerserker said:


> Does anybody reload their pistol ammo (or can you reload them)?



Yes it can be reloaded, but the basic componants to reload are getting hard to get as well. I was lead to beleive that reloading .45, 9mm, etc... ammo was a bit trickier than reloading rifle ammo? Not sure why, but I could be mistaken.


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## javlin (Apr 22, 2013)

Bucksnort101 said:


> Yes it can be reloaded, but the basic componants to reload are getting hard to get as well. I was lead to beleive that reloading .45, 9mm, etc... ammo was a bit trickier than reloading rifle ammo? Not sure why, but I could be mistaken.



I found some 110g bullets for my M1 cabine today .25 a piece said sheesh but p/u anyway 200 was the count on that them then I p/u 100 bullets 150g B/T Sierra for the 30-06 most likely might go .308 though.The hand gun ammo question as for the last .45 I loaded it was a bit of a pain I lost about 15 cases over 200rds made.The FMJ 230g have very little bevel at the base and can rip a case if not perfectly straight in my case when the bullet is pressed in other than that they shoot just like the store bought ammo.

PS: no primers at all in the shop today hopefully next week they say only have about 1000 primers left.


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## Torch (Apr 22, 2013)

Yes you can reload pistol ammo, used to own a Dillon Square Deal,cranked out thousands of rounds with it,great customer service. Too bad i had to sell it to pay off the lawyer for a divorce. Highly recommend the unit.


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## Matt308 (Apr 23, 2013)

I've got a Lee progressive reloader. Works great.


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## javlin (Apr 23, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> I've got a Lee progressive reloader. Works great.






I still use the old single stage Lee.I cannot remember on those .45 did I buy them already deprimed?I know 30 carbine is the easiest ammo to reload and figured the same would be with a another straight case as a pistol round.Then like I said was it the lack of a good bevel?I do recall now upon loading some .45 Hornady 230g HP/XTP no issues at all


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## Matt308 (Apr 23, 2013)

I have to admit that I haven't reloaded in quite a few years. But never had a problem with 9mm nor .45ACP on my progressive. I have the Lee single stage, but have never used it. Bought it only because of the anniversary price that I couldn't pass up.


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## bobbysocks (Apr 24, 2013)

always wanted a dillion. had a lee turret press that could have been made progressive. sold all of it years ago and am kicking myself for doing that now. i remember the original add for the dilion...$299 got you up and running. was considered expensive then...dirt cheap now.


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## vikingBerserker (Apr 24, 2013)

I used to reload shotgun shells, I had a sweet multi stage reloader, but alas I lost it for the same reason as Torch.

If I get heavy into pistols I'd reconsider doing it again.


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## Torch (Apr 25, 2013)

Whats nice about the Dillon,you can have multiple die plates set up. Changing calibers was easy. The Square Deal only did pistol cartridges thou. I used to do my .308 hunting loads 1 at a time with the RCBS Partner kit.


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## Matt308 (Apr 26, 2013)

Torch said:


> Whats nice about the Dillon,you can have multiple die plates set up. Changing calibers was easy. .



Same with Lee. Not looking for a pissing contest between Lee and Dillon. You pay more for Dillon, but I have NEVER EVER heard a single bad thing about Dillon and their customer service and return/repair policy. Then again, I haven't heard anything negative about Lee either. But Dillon is the Nordstroms of reloading equipment. And there is something to be said for that.


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## mikewint (Apr 28, 2013)

Been wanting to reload since I started shooting long Colt. The prices!! Been looking into the Dillon Square Deal. The only bad? thing seems to be that you can only use their dies. With all the calibers I shoot it will be a major investment just to get started. However looking on line for reloading supplies is like looking for ammo. It's all soldout. Been saving my old brass just in case but they're only reloadabe so many times. Don't want to invest $2000 in equipment then have nothing to reload


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## Torch (Apr 28, 2013)

Matt no pissing contest going on,Dillon and RCBS are the only things I know. Yes Dillon has their own dies but once your set your good to go. I loaded .38/.357,9mm,.45,.44mag...I can't attest to other companies but some little dohickie broke and they shipped that sucker over night no charge with extra's. What I would like to own is their 550.


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## Matt308 (Apr 28, 2013)

Amen brother. That's Dillon.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 5, 2013)

Woo hoo! Was able to get a box of .40 Ammo. Last one on the shelf too. A friend of mine was able to pick up a box as well for me.


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## mikewint (May 5, 2013)

Chris, that's great. The local Bass Pro outlet continues to have Sellier Bellot .40 boxes of 50rnds for $17. Walmart in town had two boxes of Winchester .40 at $20 per box of 50. So I've managed to get 1000rnds altogether in the last two weeks. Unfortunately .22WMR is still a dream.
I had mentioned my backyard range. In the foreground on the stump mounted to a 4X4 are three targets. In the grass about 4 O'Clock is the yellow tumbling disk metal target. The dead oak to the left gets paper targets nailed to it. Several self-resetting targets. The small disks by the log pile are for .22 and the bigger vertical disks are for large caliber. Then we have the living targets that wandered in asking to be targets. Two gallon jugs can be seen in the further woods. Altogether I can range out to 100yds


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## Matt308 (May 5, 2013)

Great pics. The dear looked startled, like they were eating something and then discovered you. What's there to get their interest? Just the smells?


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## mikewint (May 5, 2013)

Hard to say Matt could have been the camera shutter or just my presence on the deck


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 5, 2013)

Hey Mike, what is the kicker? How is 50 rounds so damn cheap there.


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## Torch (May 5, 2013)

Just picked up 250rds of .45 230gr fmjs for 189.00 and a couple of boxes of .308 175 gr Sierra Match Kings, 32.00 a box. Yeesh


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## Matt308 (May 6, 2013)

I'm finding it hard to believe that the manufacturers can't keep the shelves stocked. Something else is going on behind the scenes.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 6, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> I'm finding it hard to believe that the manufacturers can't keep the shelves stocked. Something else is going on behind the scenes.



I talked to my local store here, he said he keeps it shelved for minutes only.

Not to turn political, but I have read reports that certain govt. agencies are hoarding it. Basically if they buy it all up, there is nothing for the rest. Just rumors I have read.


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## Matt308 (May 6, 2013)

I've heard that too, but find it a bit dubious. Occams Razor would say that it is a combination of our current war expenditures, govt agency procurement (like the recent Homeland Security purchase that I wanna say was for 200M rds - that got lots of conspiracy people riled!) and public panic over the post Sandyhook gun legislation. American Riflemen predicted that supplies will be back to normal by the end of summer. It's the damn price hikes that worry me. I've always read that the anti-gun groups realize that they can likely never get all the guns off the street near term, but that a likely more successful tactic would be to just price ammo out of reach via legistlating manufacturing quota, state taxes, federal taxes, etc. Second amendment Sin Taxes to save ourselves just like they do for tobacco, liqour, 20oz sodas, foi gras, and trans fats. Your gov't hard at work saving your azz one day at a time.

Remember that you can't passively maintain your freedoms. If you do, they will take them from you like the proverbial frog placed on the lit burner in the pot of cold water.


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## mikewint (May 6, 2013)

Chris, I can't give you an answer on price. The first 200rnds I bought were $16 per 50 and they were Blazers. The next 200 were Lawman and were $25 per 50. Bass Pro shells were the Sellier Belloit at $17 per 50 and they would only sell 100rnds at a time. The last 100rnds were from Walmart, Winchester, at $20 per 50.
Matt, I've heard the same stories about the govt buying hugh quantities of ammo so I can understand .223 shortages but plain old .22LR? and .22WMR is a dream. Companies like CCI specialize in rimfire, they claim they are working 24/7 making .22. Where are they? As long as supplies are limited price gouging is a reality. Much as I hate to say it the govt has it right. Guns are protectd by the 2nd but there is no right to keep and bear ammo. A gun without ammo is an expensive club.
The NRA is having its convention in Huston. They're back patting over defeating the restrictive gun laws but I've not heard a peep about the ammo shortage


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 7, 2013)

Were the cheap rounds brass or steal?


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## bobbysocks (May 7, 2013)

there is a lot more to this shortage than we will ever know. back when i was dealing i was constantly getting flyers for surplus ammo from isreal, hungary, canada....all the nato block nations. china...norinco flooded the market with good cheap 556 nato. i could have bought the stuff by the tractor trailer load! where has all this stuff gone?? you cant tell me we used it up! someone is not allowing it into the country....period! hell if i had a couple hundred grand i would jump across the border and open the belizean ammo corp...i guarentee you i could find brass, powder, and bullit providers in south america, asia, etc that could supply my every need.....but i would also bet you i would be thwarted from exporting that ammo to the US. i had a bidders license to buy us mil surplus.....and was actually tempted back then to buy a used mil loading machine that ran thousands of rounds an hour....now i wish i had.


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## Matt308 (May 7, 2013)

Good post. Just missing the inadvertant [SHIFT] key. 

New York Times


Federal agents said today that they had seized more than 74 million rounds of illegally imported ammunition, calling it the largest seizure of bullets in the nation's history.

Rollin B. Klink, special agent in charge of the United States Customs Service in San Francisco, said the contraband bullets would fill 8 to 10 rail cars. Agents hired tractor-trailer drivers to haul it away on Wednesday and today. "It's the largest seizure of ammunition ever in the U.S.," Mr. Klink said.

No arrests were made, but Mr. Klink said the investigation was continuing. He added that indictments could be handed down on Friday. Charges could include conspiracy, smuggling and false entry of merchandise. If convicted of all charges, individuals could face up to five years in prison and a fine up to the maximum value of the seized goods.

It is legal to possess or sell 7.62-millimeter ammunition, which can be used in legal semiautomatic weapons or illegal assault-type weapons. But it is illegal to import the ammunition from certain countries.


The ammunition's import documents said the bullets were made in Russia and were imported legally from that country. But the Customs Service said the papers were false and that the bullets actually came from China.

A United States ban on importing Chinese ammunition was imposed last year.

The ammunition entered the country through Charleston, S.C., and was shipped by rail to Oakland, Calif., officials said. The investigation began a month ago.

Michael Donofrio, a supervisory agent with the Customs Service, estimated the value of the seized ammunition at $24.5 million wholesale. The importer, Donald St. Pierre Jr., put the value at no more than $7 million.


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## mikewint (May 7, 2013)

Chris, the cheapest rounds, $16 per 50, CCI Blazers are aluminum cases but all the rest are brass. I've run about 100 rounds of the Blazers through the M&P with perfect results so I'm happy. I am saving all brass though in case I ever decide to reload.
As far as I'm concerned they can keep ALL that Russian ammo. It is CR*P. I know nothing about the China stuff, don't even recall seeing any for sale.
Be nice if they's import some .22 though
Bobby, it would be nice but you can't find brass or primers either. The local shops still have plenty of gun powder though, just nothing to put it into


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## Torch (May 8, 2013)

Actually Wolf makes a target .22lr made I think in Germany that works real well and of course their 7.62x39 runs thru AK's with no issues, On the other hand the Wolf .45acp gave nothing but nightmares to my Sig 220 super match and my Springfield TRP Operator. I could not even load the Wolf into the Sigs mag,would bind after 3 rds and the TRP jammed so hard I had to wack the slide back with a 2x4 and hammer to eject the unfired rd. Still have about 100rds of those,maybe my FNX 45acp will work with them,next range trip.


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## Matt308 (May 8, 2013)

I won't use anything soviet bloc, either corrosive powder, primers or both. And I don't want to mess with hot water, 409 and vinegar on my weapons. Too much trouble and worries me that without a complete tear down I'll pull a rusting hulk from my safe. Still not sure I trust any Russian stuff. Haven't looked in quite a while specifically for Chinese stuff, but based upon the article above it would imply that it might be illegal.


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## Torch (May 8, 2013)

The biggest problem with Wolf is the coating they put on them. If you have loose tolerances they work great,non corrosive. but anything that is built well will have issues. Never had one that didn't go bang. Silver Bear is another Russian manufacturer that puts coating on it's rounds.


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## bobbysocks (May 8, 2013)

i sold ammo from eastern block countries...shot corrosive powder/berdan primed etc. never had a problem with any of it. in fact some of the best 22Lr i every got came from yugoslavia or hungary. the components are the best...so you arent going to get the reloading life out of the brass. 

if you see capital letters in my posts...i probably didnt type it...lol. the keyboard on my first computer had a broken shift key so i just typed everything lower case...a bad habit that just stuck. and i am too old to change it now...


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## Torch (May 8, 2013)

Another thing to consider is around here alot of ranges especially indoor won't let you shoot the Russian stuff or anything with steel in it....


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## javlin (May 9, 2013)

Finally got to shoot some of the big boys today .308 and 8mm.I was happy how fast the M1a came back to me I was drilling down 2" patterns pretty quick granted only 80yds but open sights,crouching one knee up off a 50gal drum.The fella who let me shoot is a customer of mine and Viet Nam Vet who asked I bring the M1 carbine out the next go round to bring back memories so I am with a couple three hundred rds of ammo.I finally got my Argentine FN 49 to cycle the way I like 4-6' @ 3 o'clock before it was 15' @ 1o'clock makes finding brass much easier and also easier on the bolt/gun.The ammo for the 8mm would not cycle thru the G43?I know I usually try to make it alittle lighter on loads for that rifle but that box of 50(45now) just got labeled K98 only My right shoulder is sore and I am happy boy 


PS: thought I had found a worthy 1917 Eddy last week it came through my brother-in-laws Pawn shop was going to be mine for $4-450 a reasonable price.The metal all looked good with appropiate wear but damn if somebody did not varnish the stock  Oh it was one of the better jobs I have seen but not the first cartouche are arsenal mark left to me at best it was a $200 rifle at that point.I have been looking to fill that little niche in the collection to sit by the 1903.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 11, 2013)

Was able to get two boxes if 50 rounds each for $20 each this morning at Farm and Fleet.

Shocker huh?


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## mikewint (May 12, 2013)

Chris, that's great, the guy at Bass Pro told me that they are expecting a FULL shipment of ammo on Monday. BRICKS of .22 are supposed to be on it. I gave him a list of everything I've been looking for and he is going to put it on the side until I can get there. Time will tell but it sure sounds good. Will report back tomorrow.
Is the dry spell over or is time a teaser?


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## Glider (May 13, 2013)

Can I ask what you think of Eley and Lapua ammunition, or is it not available in the USA. When target shooting I normally used either Eley Tenex or Lapua Midas M and never thought of using Russian ammunition.
I did use Winchester T22 in the semi auto carbine because it was cheaper but it was dissapointing in the target rifle.


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## Shortround6 (May 13, 2013)

How well it works depends on the lot numbers. I have shot very good Eley Tenex (Red) and some not so good. I have shot Lapua Midas M but not enough (only a few bricks) to get a good feel for it. What I did shot did well. I once had some Eley Pistol Match that did real well in my rifle about 25 years ago. 

The US makers gave up on Match ammo quite a few years back so Most competitive shooters use imported ammo. Federal was the last maker of Match .22 ammo. Don't know if they are still making it but 7-8 years quality was all over the map, one lot shot very well and another might as well have been shotgun ammo.


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## Torch (May 13, 2013)

Wolf Match Target Ammo 22 Long Rifle 40 Grain Lead Round NoseI've been happy with these in revolver and bolt actions, semi auto can be iffy cycling because they are not HV.


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## Glider (May 13, 2013)

Time for a silly question but what is a brick, it isn't a term we use here, I assume it’s a 100 rounds?

Of the two, my preferred match ammo was the Lapua over the Tenex. Accuracy was similar but it was cleaner and if you were doing a competition shoot over the length of a day, I felt it made a slight difference.

I have never used Wolf Match or to be honest never seen anyone use it over here. In the UK Eley tends to be the default ammo in its different versions


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## Matt308 (May 13, 2013)

I've always associated it with 500rds (about the size of a brick). But nowadays, you see 550rd, 450rd, etc. But 500rds was the original standard.

.22LR is notoriously dirty and since rim fired primer, unreliable. If it weren't for the unreliability, I wouldn't dismiss it as a last resort defensive round. You can squeeze off quite a few .22LR with very little practice. But if they don't go bang...

I have found that virtually every brand will have an ammo related misfire in about 1-in-100 to 1-in-250rds. Not acceptable odds to bet my family's nor my own life upon. Fun and cheap though. Well it certainly used to be at any rate.


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## Glider (May 13, 2013)

You will find this hard to believe but I think I can remember 3 misfires in about 10 years on the target rifle. A lot more with the semi auto say one in 500 approx


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## Matt308 (May 13, 2013)

All of mine were failure to fires... not stovepipe, failure to feed nor failure to eject. Thus not a dirty gun nor magazine issue. Surely ammo.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 13, 2013)

Anybody have any experience with American Eagle brand? I can get boxes of .40 pretty cheap.


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## Shortround6 (May 13, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> All of mine were failure to fires... not stovepipe, failure to feed nor failure to eject. Thus not a dirty gun nor magazine issue. Surely ammo.




When you are paying $8.00-12.00 per box of 50 several years ago the misfire rate better not be that high  

Granted I have seen some misfires even with the top shelf stuff and even saw a split rim take the extractor out of an Anschutz.

Matt is right, a "brick" is 500 rounds, usually 10 50 round boxes in their own larger carton. 10 "Bricks" to the case of 5000 rounds. Plastic 100 round boxes sort of screw things up. Or Eley's habit of shrink wrapping two 50 round boxes together.


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## Matt308 (May 13, 2013)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Anybody have any experience with American Eagle brand? I can get boxes of .40 pretty cheap.



I own boatloads of it. Never had a problem. Not sure about current lots though. Always seemed quality in the past.


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## Matt308 (May 13, 2013)

Shortround6 said:


> When you are paying $8.00-12.00 per box of 50 several years ago the misfire rate better not be that high
> 
> Granted I have seen some misfires even with the top shelf stuff and even saw a split rim take the extractor out of an Anschutz.



8 to 12 bucks for 50?!?!?! Holy shite. I have only bought match .22LR twice. I have found intrinsic accuracy in Remington Thunderbolt crap bricks that would shame most match ammunition. How about 3/8in at 40yds, 5 shot, out of a Ruger 10/22 with only a 1in aftermarket 10/22 bull barrel and cheap Bushnell 3-9X variable scope. I know others can do better, but that you have to admit that is pretty damn good for a lowlife like me. I do have to say though that the tolerances in this bull barrel will not allow more than about 100rds before I must do a major cleaning. The tolerances are just too tight. Did a bit of informal small caliber steel silhouette with it and got quite the bit of admiration for my cheap setup.


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## Torch (May 14, 2013)

American Eagle always goes bang,not exotic but functional.....


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## Torch (May 14, 2013)

i'm just happy right now because my LGS will keep/sell me a couple of CCI mini mags every couple of weeks,friggin redicoulous.


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## Matt308 (May 14, 2013)

I've got a bunch of American Eagle. Bout the same as the Thunderbolts in my experience. Not bad stuff.


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## mikewint (May 14, 2013)

Chris, I cannot speak for American Eagle .40 but I shoot lots of A.E. .22LR and I have never had a problem with it, in fact, I don't recall any mis- or hangs, FTEs or anything else. I try to buy Federal .22LR because of the 550 bricks for the same price as 500. Along with Matt, a brick is 500rnds IMHO. 
Nothing from BassPro so I'm wondering if the guy was dreaming but I'm hopeful


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## m1895g (May 14, 2013)

New here, from the way conservative stat of Kansas. At the moment i own 5 hand guns, 2 shotguns and 10 rifles. Should be enough but it is not!


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## Matt308 (May 15, 2013)

Well good on you! 17 smokepoles and more corn than you can possibly eat!


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## mikewint (May 15, 2013)

Well sorry to report but the "Guy" (Oh Derek, he don't work here any more) from BassPro was smoking the lawn. No such shipment, no bricks of .22LR., no WMR They did however get more .40S&W still at $17 per 50rnds, some .22 Thunderbolt and some .45ACP. Still rationing at 2 boxs to a customer. Will try to grab more tomorrow. Doncha hate horders!


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## Matt308 (May 15, 2013)

Zombies man! Blame it on the frickin' zombies!


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## nincomp (May 16, 2013)

Mikewint,
Make sure that you buy all that you can before those danged horders show up.

After several rounds of panic buying in the US in the last several years, I wonder how many citizens have now accumulated several thousand rounds of "just in case" ammo?

I am afraid to ask anyone for fear that they think I am some government spy... and shoot me.


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## mikewint (May 16, 2013)

Nicomp, we, I, us said a while back that the way to contol guns is to control ammo. The ability to tax is the ability to control and it is all in the vocabulary: "It's not a fine, that would be unconstitional, it's a tax, perfectly legal" A gun without ammo is a very expensive club.


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## nincomp (May 17, 2013)

I do not disagree with you. I am just curious about how many folks have accumulated thousands of round of ammunition "just in case." In the 1970's and early 1980's, relatively few Americans owned semi-auto weapons in NATO calibers. In those times where the USSR was a more serious threat, the gun owners that I knew still felt well prepared if they had fewer than a dozen boxes of ammo. Now, a lot of folks keep numerous 30-round magazines loaded at all times and do not feel prepared unless they have several cases of rounds available. The definition of "enough ammo" seems to have changed.

I just wanted to say that I have seen enough panic buys over the years (and not just for ammo), that I no longer tend to ascribe them to evil intent. I remember that some of my otherwise reasonable friends started stocking their bomb shelters and stockpiling ammunition when Bill Clinton was elected. They were absolutely certain that the government was within days of sending in the shock troops to confiscate all the weapons in the country. The same happened when Obama was elected. It may well have occurred numerous times over the years.

By the way, I currently have 8 rifles (OK, some are carbines) as well as reloading equipment, so I am definitely not anti-gun.

On the other hand, since Hornady and Remington are adding new production lines or have recently done so, I am not too worried. Other things, like a drastic cost increase of brass (which is what put my former employer out of business), a shortage of worldwide copper supplies, a lack of primer or gunpowder manufacturing capacity (not surprising since our military has been using and buying a lot more ammo during the past few years) can have a surprisingly strong effect on civilian ammo availability. It also does not surprise me that there is less military surplus ammo available. When our military as well as others are shooting a lot more, there is less old ammunition around that will be sold at a low price as surplus.

The strange effects of perception and mild shortages was driven home to me the other night when I was helping my daughter with her homework. She was researching the 1979-80 oil embargo. I still vividly remember people in their cars waiting in line outside gas stations and sucking the places' tanks dry each time a fuel truck arrived. Some service stations were out of gas, and even-odd day gas rationing was in effect some places. There was genuine panic. The price of gasoline more than doubled and I remember hearing people saying that we should invade Iran and Iraq to get "our " oil.

As it turned out, the amount of gasoline sold in 1980 was only 3.5% less than in the year with the highest gas usage (1977 or '78, I think). I did not know this. It turns out that a huge amount of gasoline went into gas cans and newly installed gasoline storage tanks at homes and businesses instead of being available at the gas station pumps. All the cars waiting in lines with their engines idling did not help either.

I do not want to start a fight (a none-to-bright thing to do on thread entitled "The Guns We Own"). We simply disagree on the severity of the current situation. Then again, I have been wrong before...


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## Matt308 (May 17, 2013)

nincomp said:


> I do not disagree with you. I am just curious about how many folks have accumulated thousands of round of ammunition "just in case." In the 1970's and early 1980's, relatively few Americans owned semi-auto weapons in NATO calibers.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Really you think so? Perhaps the subtlety is your NATO caliber clarifier and if so, I can agree with the statement. But heck man, there were so many M1 carbines, M1 Garands, Cetme's, FALs, G3s, MAS, SKS, etc. It's the plethora of AR-15 clones and .223 ammo being relatively cheap that has changed in the last 20+ years. That and anytime a party platform is built upon gun restrictions, it incites folks to purchase something that may not be available tomorrow when that party comes into power. I did the same thing prior to the Clinton gun ban. And guess what, once the Clinton Gun ban was instituted you couldn't buy them anymore for any realistic price. Even mags for some relatively obscure rifles/handguns were going in the $100-$200/mag range. At those prices they might as well be banned and the anti-gun folks know it. Its not about criminality. Its about removing guns from the law abiding populace.


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## nincomp (May 17, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> But heck man, there were so many M1 carbines, M1 Garands, Cetme's, FALs, G3s, MAS, SKS, etc. It's the plethora of AR-15 clones and .223 ammo being relatively cheap that has changed in the last 20+ years.



Believe me, I wish that I had gotten a Garand and an M1 Carbine when they were available! I intentionally used the phrase "Nato Caliber" (including 7.62x51) and probably should have added 7.62x39. Those are the main types of ammunition I have seen purchased by the case in recent memory. I do not remember seeing numerous ammo cans containing 30-06 or .30 Carbine ammunition in peoples gun rooms.
Even my friend who competed with a M1 Garand did not keep that much ammo on hand. Now *this* guy had lots of ex-military rifles, including bolt-actions, but he did not have large amounts of ammunition for them. He might have large volumes of rifle ammunition now. I don't know as I haven't seen him in a few years. On the other hand, he did have a fair amount of .45 acp ammo (including his own reloads), but he loved to shoot his 1911's.

I admit that my sample size has been small, but it includes a former workplace place where almost half of the men would take time off to go deer hunting. Relatively few of those guys had ex-military semi-autos. When they did, M1 carbines were the most common, but were generally used for plinking, when inexpensive ammo could be found. For home defense, pistols and shotguns were generally at the ready. 
Most of the guys who did have ex-military rifles had a bunch of them.

I did not mean to stir up a hornet's nest, but it seems, to me at least, that the amount of "just in case" ammo has increased. I also seemed odd to me that ammo manufacturers were adding equipment for increased production if that ammo would not be sold. Then again, as I have said, I have been wrong before (just ask my wife) ...


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## Matt308 (May 17, 2013)

You live in NC and sound like you hang around hunting folks. No beef with me on your observations. They are what they are and I can actually confirm you sentiments based upon my own. My uncle lives in SC, hunts religiously and really has no interest in military weapons. Owns quite a few guns, but no military interest. 30-06, .243, 12ga, .38spl, and owns a single M1 carbine to plink with. I'm smiling at the coincidence. While I'm from a long line of rednecks (Alabama, including my transplanted Uncle), most are just your avid hunters wanting to put food in the freezer. While my uncle does not have ammo cans full of NATO calibers, he does have a respective amount of brass, powder and primers. And these, if stored like mine, are behind lock and key and not in the normal visual view.


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## Torch (May 17, 2013)

Well I'm finally seeing some more ammo out here. I hunt with a .300wsm and a .270, Which I can find easily enough. But .223 and .308 which are also great hunting, plinking rounds have been a pain in the butt to get. i only see 150/147 gr stuff for the .308,no 168gr match thou I did find a couple of 175gr boxes. .223 grs have been sporadic in what you get mostly due to the fact that they can be fired on the 5.56 and 7.62x51 platforms and not the other way around. The Kali politicians are going after the ammo hard because nothing in the 2am that says anything about the right to own ammo,also want all ammo to be lead free which makes it hard to make a good softpoint bullet..


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## Torch (May 17, 2013)

Like I was saying....http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/infobuls/2013-BOF-03.pdf


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## mikewint (May 17, 2013)

Torch, had never even heard of this before, sounds pretty redundant in many respects as ballistic tests can and do match bullets to firearms and in the case of a revolver no cases are ejected to be found.
As to these [email protected] ammo horders. Been picking up my 2 box quota every day so 300rnds of .40 at $17/50, 300rnds of .22LR thunderbolt at $3/50. Still no .357mag or .44mag or .22mag


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## Matt308 (May 17, 2013)

.22Mag has always been expensive and rare to find.


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## javlin (May 17, 2013)

Torch said:


> i only see 150/147 gr stuff for the .308,no 168gr match thou I did find a couple of 175gr boxes. ..



Hmmnn Torch for me it's the other way around the 147/150g for the .308 is your NATO weight and works in the pressure range(easily) of your semi-auto weapons.While a 165-175g can be used and has been for special applications(sniping) is not generally used but I relaod to alittle lower pressure output.I just picked up a box of 168g Speer Match a couple weeks ago but have not found 147/150 in over 2yrs.It's a good thing I started bulking up on bullets back in 2005/06 might of been even sooner for that's when I got 2000+ brass .308 cases courtesy of the USN.


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## Matt308 (May 18, 2013)

Is it as hard as they say to deprime/size/prime mil spec brass? I've never tried it nor known someone who has. Only read about it and found both sides of the argument.


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## nincomp (May 18, 2013)

Torch said:


> .223 grs have been sporadic in what you get mostly due to the fact that they can be fired on the 5.56 and 7.62x51 platforms and not the other way around.



Dang, I wish that I had one of those 5.56/7.62 rifles! Does it come with some new-fangled variable sized chamber gizmo or do you put it into the clothes dryer to shrink it down? I know that some of you and now asking yourselves "after he shrinks the rifle down, how does he get it to grow back to 7.62 size again?" Well, I thought of a solution:
porn.


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## Torch (May 18, 2013)

what I meant was .223/5.56 and .308/7.62x51.......or to clarify further you should not fire 5.56 in a .223 or a 7.62x51 in a .308....


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## Torch (May 18, 2013)

I have seen a special "deprimer" for military brass,pretty sure Brownells and Dillon carry them...You still need to make sure the primer pocket and hole are all clean. I have not done many but it's do able.


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## javlin (May 18, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> Is it as hard as they say to deprime/size/prime mil spec brass? I've never tried it nor known someone who has. Only read about it and found both sides of the argument.



It could be somewhat problematic the first go round Matt with the Lake City brass.I will have to say I loss a couple deprimer/resizer due to case sticking but credited that more to an unsatisfactory lube application more than anything.The brass itself is excellant and thick lending itself to more reloads over the commercial methinks.Now there is another primer that is used if memory serves me right that has two indentions on the iside(?) that does take a special tool to which I think Torch may of been referring to.The LC brass has the single relief like commercial but even the size of the primer pocket is tighter than commercial brass.


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## nincomp (May 18, 2013)

Torch said:


> what I meant was .223/5.56 and .308/7.62x51.......or to clarify further you should not fire 5.56 in a .223 or a 7.62x51 in a .308....



Oh, I know, but I could not resist! 
My Wife says that anyone who deals with me for much time needs to develop a "drivel filter." That way they can ignore my silly comments and only hear the normal ones.


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## Matt308 (May 18, 2013)

javlin said:


> It could be somewhat problematic the first go round Matt with the Lake City brass.I will have to say I loss a couple deprimer/resizer due to case sticking but credited that more to an unsatisfactory lube application more than anything.The brass itself is excellant and thick lending itself to more reloads over the commercial methinks.Now there is another primer that is used if memory serves me right that has two indentions on the iside(?) that does take a special tool to which I think Torch may of been referring to.The LC brass has the single relief like commercial but even the size of the primer pocket is tighter than commercial brass.



Yeah, I've seen the Dillon deprimer pocket tool (not cheap, but not expensive if that is your game). But just wondered if us average guys thought that reloading mil brass was worth the effort. Based upon comments so far I'm still undetermined. Not enough data points for me.


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## mikewint (May 18, 2013)

Matt, I can see where you could save money in the long run and obtain cal./loads not or hard to find. BUT the cost of equipment is going to take a while to amortize and the biggest neg right now is that bullets/brass/primers are just as hard to find as factory loads so add an idle reloading machine to an idle gun/rifle


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## Torch (May 18, 2013)

Lake City and Norma have excellent brass but you have to be careful after 3+ reloads especially if they are hot loads, the brass will stretch and eventually you will get cracks around the neck area,which for me reloading was done when I'm in a relaxed mode and not rushing. There is always a careful check up on used brass and they are seperated by the amount of use they get. It is time consuming thats for sure. But always worth the effort when you get that load that just works for you..


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## javlin (May 18, 2013)

Torch said:


> Lake City and Norma have excellent brass but you have to be careful after 3+ reloads especially if they are hot loads, the brass will stretch and eventually you will get cracks around the neck area,which for me reloading was done when I'm in a relaxed mode and not rushing. There is always a careful check up on used brass and they are seperated by the amount of use they get. It is time consuming thats for sure. But always worth the effort when you get that load that just works for you..



Been there done that Torch.It happened on my G43 with a cracked neck back in the early days of reloading.I was able to get 6-8 reloads on Sellier&Belliot 8MM brass then learned what to look for.It somehow becomes second nature now upon measuring case length and resizing/depriming.So far the LC seems to hold up really well but then again am maybe only on the second run of only some of the brass me reloading.I found out a neat trick for cracked case and bullet lodge in the barrel?You have another round loaded but with paper packed in the throat of said case,discharge and it clears the barrel.


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## Matt308 (May 19, 2013)

That's pretty slick idea. Prevents this from happening. Ran across this yesterday... the guy was lucky.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn4cgF_Sr3w_


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## bobbysocks (May 19, 2013)

javlin said:


> I found out a neat trick for cracked case and bullet lodge in the barrel?You have another round loaded but with paper packed in the throat of said case,discharge and it clears the barrel.



i have heard of guys keeping a couple blank rounds in their bag just in case ...for doing the same thing.


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## Torch (May 19, 2013)

Thats all fine and good if you realize the misfire happened,ugly and expensive results if you don't...


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## Shortround6 (May 19, 2013)

bobbysocks said:


> i have heard of guys keeping a couple blank rounds in their bag just in case ...for doing the same thing.



I would think long and hard about that one. And read the chapter in "Hatcher's Notebook" on barrel obstructions. 

Blanks use a different powder than normal ammunition with a much different pressure curve.


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## mikewint (May 19, 2013)

Anyone who would fire anything in a gun with a blocked barrel is asking for serious problems. I suspect they'd be working on another "How life can change in a fraction of an instant" post. I'll watch from behind a tree


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 19, 2013)

Almost bought a Lee Enfield today. Walked away in the end though, too much going on right now.


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## mikewint (May 19, 2013)

First real gun (not .22) I ever bought SMLE Mk III from Kleins Sporting Goods. Mil surplus paid $12 for it, about '56 or '57


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 19, 2013)

They wanted $599 for this one. Original sling with it.


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## Torch (May 19, 2013)

Ouch!!!!!!,cool rifle,for awhile there I wanted to collect a rifle from each ww2 country,had my IBM m1 until I got po'd at my job and sold it,had a MAS,a converted .308 Garand and was heading to an Arisaka,a Caracano,an Enfield and a M98 8mm. Then I fell in love with my Ed brown 1911........Going to have to start saving pennies again. I did buy a Mitchell Mauser in like new condition/never fired. Put a darker stain on the wood so it does not look like a virgin rifle.As long as they look in good shape I'm interested..


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## bobbysocks (May 20, 2013)

Shortround6 said:


> I would think long and hard about that one. And read the chapter in "Hatcher's Notebook" on barrel obstructions.
> 
> Blanks use a different powder than normal ammunition with a much different pressure curve.



oh i didnt say that is what i would do! having been in the gun biz for20 years i have heard more than my share of stories. i have only had one misfire like that ...in a ruger 357. i have a brass rod i used to beat the bullit out of the barrel. the area i live seems to be ripe with future darwin award contenders. it didnt bother me how they deal with firearms...as i was not going to buy one from them or be near them when they shot. but the "fixes" they performed on their cars made me drive around certain areas...as i didnt even want to possibly be on the road the same times as them.


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## Matt308 (May 20, 2013)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Almost bought a Lee Enfield today. Walked away in the end though, too much going on right now.



Ooooo... what kind. One of my favorites. Just so you know, the cartridges are rather expensive if you don't reload. In hindsight that was as rather stoopid statement given the current situation.  Yet throwing a $1+ or so down range at every shot just gets my ire up. Whatever you do, save ALL YOUR FRICKIN BRASS. Even if you don't reload.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 20, 2013)

They had two MKI's and a MKIII


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## Matt308 (May 21, 2013)

Nice.


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## mikewint (May 23, 2013)

I "sporterized" mine quite a bit. Removed the top wood and cut down the lower stock, new rear sights, removed sling swivels. installed recoil pad, shot it a few times but .303 was always hrd to come by and expensive. Then, sadly, left it to my son's tender care who left it in the garage for years where it rusted into one lump


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 24, 2013)

I want mine original, unaltered, but I also want to someday own the standard rifle of every nation that participated in WW2 as part of my WW2 Military collection.


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## mikewint (May 24, 2013)

Chris, I was young, what can I say. I wanted a hunting rifle but could not afford one so the sporterized SMLE. About 6mo ago there was an Enfield for sale that had never been fired, was a No 4 Mk I or II as I recall. Guy wanted near $2000 for it. Been looking at the shows for a nice M1 in good condition and an M14 would be nice as well but...


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## nincomp (May 25, 2013)

mikewint said:


> Chris, I was young, what can I say. I wanted a hunting rifle but could not afford one so the sporterized SMLE. About 6mo ago there was an Enfield for sale that had never been fired, was a No 4 Mk I or II as I recall. Guy wanted near $2000 for it. Been looking at the shows for a nice M1 in good condition and an M14 would be nice as well but...



I have visited more than one forum dedicated to the Lee-Enfield No.1's and No.4's where the members gnash their teeth and declare a pox upon anyone who has Bubba'd (sporterized) one. Please, for your own sake and for your loved ones, say something like: "I owned a Lee Enfield that _SOMEONE_ had sporterized." 
No, no need to thank me, you are welcome.
If for some odd reason, you in fact want a pox upon your house, please ignore the above advice.

There was at least one shipment of unused No4 Mk2's (yup, they are marked Mk2 rather than MkII) that were imported to the US in the late 1990's. They were shipped in their original protective wrappings and some have stayed in those wrappings. All of the unissued ones I have seen were from the final batch made in England during 1955 and very early 1956. Some collectors get nit-picky and point out that all of these rifles were proof-tested after manufacture, so there is no such thing as "unfired". 

It has been almost decade since the last big importation of Lee-Enfield rifles, so the prices have climbed quite a bit (they had been as low as $100 for an ugly, but functional one). It is possible that there are some very rare unissued rifles that are ridiculously valuable but I am unaware of them. From what I have seen, $2,000 is a bit high for an "unfired" one unless, of course, it comes with a British soldier attached.


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## Matt308 (May 25, 2013)

And I thought $575 was outrageous. I've become my ole man apparently. No wonder my financial advisory says I will need $millions to live comfortably in twilight of my years.


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## mikewint (May 29, 2013)

I can well remember Kleins in Chicago having 55-gal barrels full of all types of war surplus rifles almost all for under $20 not to mention all the various "deactivated" guns like the .45 Thompson we bought with a 100-rnd drum mag for under $50. Them was the days


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## javlin (May 29, 2013)

mikewint said:


> I can well remember Kleins in Chicago having 55-gal barrels full of all types of war surplus rifles almost all for under $20 not to mention all the various "deactivated" guns like the .45 Thompson we bought with a 100-rnd drum mag for under $50. Them was the days



You sure about MG's?? The $200 ATF stamp came into play in 1934 and 2 bills in the 50/60's was still abit of cash and the wait for the paperwork.Then you had the amnesty of 1968 were one could legally register what was an illegal MG at that point.

I see Mike dewats  me bad.


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## mikewint (May 30, 2013)

The Thompson was a "Deactivated War Souvenir" i.e. a real .45 Thompson used in WWII which had been deactivated meaning lead had been poured in the breech and barrel. Thus it could not be fired.


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## bobbysocks (Jun 3, 2013)

a few smart boys figured out how to "get the lead out" so the ATF started to make them cut a section out of the receiver for a demil. you can make a replica using mg parts with a mild steel receiver ( non-fireable) but iirc it must say non-firing replica and there was something else you had to do. i never got into that so i never into the regs....especially after the mg ban. after that passed "technically" just owning a part of a mg ( let me clarify...a part that only a mg used...bolt with the lug on it...disconnect, trigger group, etc) could constitute having a mg in your possession. it was pretty open ended...with a lot depending on the ATF agent's interpretation at that moment in time....and of course they would never be @$$#0!es. a lot of places sold parts kits...everything minus the receiver. certain fireams like H&K there was no difference between the receiver on the semi HK91 ( 7.62mm), 92 ( 5.56mm), 94 ( 9mm) and the select fire G-3 and MP5. so if you owned the civilain semi and bought the parts kit you swap out the trigger group and bolt carrier...you had a rock and roller. other firearms used a different receiver ( m1a and m14) or fired from an open bolt ( Mac 10s ) so there would have to be some extensive modifications done.


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## Matt308 (Jun 3, 2013)

They still sell parts kits. And I've read articles of folks who have done re-weld jobs. But I'm dubious no matter how many times welders have told me that a weld is "stronger than the original". I'm not buying that bridge.


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## mikewint (Jun 3, 2013)

To me it comes down to the ammo, if Uncle is buying I'm shooting full auto but if I'm buying it's one at a time


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## Matt308 (Jun 4, 2013)

Yeah the machine gun thing doesn't interest me whatsoever. Kinda like playing XBox or other video games. I do it once and am satisfied to just watch others do it. In fact, that is my exact feelings about piloting a plane. Done it. Meh. Rather just observe.


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## mikewint (Jun 6, 2013)

Well, it's not the end of the dry spell but one of the dealers in town got a couple thousand rounds of .22 both *LR AND!!! WMR* been a good customer so he finally sold me a brick of .22WMR. It's the Winchester Varmint HE, 34 grain and 2120 fps. Looks like a nasty little round, actual HP bullet with cross-cuts. Don't know if they'll work in the PMR yet but they will be great rounds for the Hendry.
He also got several boxes of the Blazer .40 S&W at $16 per 50rnds so picked up 200rnds of that as well.


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## Torch (Jun 6, 2013)

Atta boy, starting to see more stuff thou .22lr is still a tough find


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## Matt308 (Jun 7, 2013)

Frickin Preppers...


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## mikewint (Jun 18, 2013)

My Theory - The Ammo Shortage: an illusion. 
Now I know that it is not much of an illusion when you've come to the ammo shop for the 100th time to find no .22, .40, .45. ect. Been thinkin, researching, talking, and internetting here is my Theory. Think of a long pipe, one end is the Manufacturer like CCI and the other your store. CCI and others are making as much or more ammo than they have in the past. And are putting it into their end of the pipe. But at the store end it is empty. Why? Simple, middle level distributors and/or their employes who are taking the ammo out of the pipe BEFORE it reaches the store. Where does it go? Simple, again go to any gun auction site, lo and behold cases and cases of all calibers. Yesterday on one site I found 80 CASES of .22LR and 87 CASES of .22WMR for sale at, get this, $0.99 PER ROUND. This character stands to make over $160,000 JUST on .22
At the lower feeding level every morning at 6AM or so the same 7 guys are waiting for the Walmart store to open, straight to sporting goods to buy any newly arrived ammo. Once they know what has arrived they immediatly call the rest of the crew at other stores to co-ordinate their buying. They've created a new job for themselves. And right to the auction site at 5 to 10 times the price they paid at Walmart. The clerk at Walmart said, "Well now you know why our shelves are empty"


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## Torch (Jun 18, 2013)

Happened to walk into a Walyworld for some RV stuff and the sales girl was just putting out a box of 8 Remmie 55gr .223,1 box(8 50rd boxes),yeesh,bought 2 of the 50rds boxes for 27.00 and change...Still no .22lr


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## nincomp (Jun 18, 2013)

mikewint said:


> My Theory - The Ammo Shortage: an illusion.
> Think of a long pipe...


---And anyone who has worked with septic tanks or wastewater treatment *KNOWS* what happens when you wait at the end of a pipe!


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## Torch (Jun 18, 2013)

Don't know if it's preppers,govt or what this is BS....What's scary is that .223,308 and .22lr are probably(arguably) the most used rounds for hunting and plinking,where the hell are just the normal non military rounds?


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## mikewint (Jun 18, 2013)

Guys, spend some time looking up gun/ammo auction sites, you will find CASES of those calibers and outrageously inflated prices. These guys are not making this ammo and it is not at local stores, it has to be coming from the distribution network BEFORE stores even see it.
Jut one site has 11,256 ammo auction in progress and stores have zero


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## bobbysocks (Jun 19, 2013)

there arent THAT many preppers. i went through the 80s scare where even the preachers saying to prepare from the pulpit. the 4 Gs...god, guns, gold, and groceries were the golden rule. granted, we werent in the midst of any military conflicts....but ammo was available and reasonable. even during the first sandbox war....i was able to sell ammo at dirt cheap prices. the government has put a halt to the importation...and the media has decided not to waste their time and money to report it. if you want to do anything write your elected officials and tell them to quit blocking or reverse whatever import restrictions they have put on ammo.


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## mikewint (Jun 19, 2013)

Bobby, I don't know what qualifies as "that many" there really doesn't need to be. I have not seen .22WMR in any of the stores around here in 6 - 8 months. ONE auction seller was auctioning 18 CASES in 3 case lots most were being bid for between $700 - $800 for the 3000rnds. So I ask again where does one person? score 18 cases to sell when Walmart does not even get more than ONE case (rarely) at a time which they then break-up. I don't know how many distributers there are but they are the holes on the pipe and the auction sites are where it's being sold at a very large profit. Just like the $50 - $60 30rnd M-16 mags selling on ebay.


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## Matt308 (Jun 19, 2013)

Mags are going for that much now!? Just like before the Clinton gun ban. Glad I picked up 8 P-Mags a year or so ago. Wish I had picked up more now. All these people paying such high prices will regret it in a few years. And those hoarding at high prices just to flip them will end up on the shitty end of the stick when the prices dive back down. Just a matter of time.


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## mikewint (Jun 19, 2013)

One can only hope. And yes if people would just stop paying these inflated prices it would all stop but in the meantime someone is going to make over $13,500 on just .22WMR


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## razor1uk (Jun 19, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> They still sell parts kits. And I've read articles of folks who have done re-weld jobs. But I'm dubious no matter how many times welders have told me that a weld is "stronger than the original". I'm not buying that bridge.



A weld is only stronger when its done by a properly trained, skilled and equipped welder, say for uk, to and above CORGI/oil industry regs - but I imagine most of the 'self improtant' back street welders are at best only construction work rated, and will use what fluxes and solders/rods are to hand resulting, as you hint at Matt, a weaker weld that also damages the material around it.
Dangerous as hell to them and anyone nearby...


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## Matt308 (Jun 19, 2013)

...especially with that kinetic energy right in front of your face. Not worth the risk.


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## Matt308 (Jun 19, 2013)

...and now for something completely different.

I want one of these badly. I mean REAL bad. I hold the money in my hands and my right hand on the ADD TO CART submit key.

1903-A4 Sniper Rifle


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 19, 2013)

Dam, that looks sweet!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 19, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> ...and now for something completely different.
> 
> I want one of these badly. I mean REAL bad. I hold the money in my hands and my right hand on the ADD TO CART submit key.
> 
> 1903-A4 Sniper Rifle



My local VFW is auctioning off a nice 1903 as a fund raiser. I am hoping I win it...


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## bobbysocks (Jun 20, 2013)

mike, i was talking about ammo in general....more the 556 and 762...etc. 22wmr i cant really say. are manufacturers still producing 22 mag pistols and rifles or are they starting to phase that round out? i havent looked at a gun circular in ages. on the topic of "preppers"....i dont think there are a wealth of them. BUT i will say most gun owners are stocking up and like you buying when they can. i dont consider them preppers....they would have to be stockpiling food, precious metals, have a bug out plan...etc. still...laws of supply and demand apply here. IF there is a demand ( which there most definitely is )...companies will ramp up production to cash in on that demand. the fact that it has gone this long is proof to me "the fix" is in....aka...the current administration is blocking importation. i guarantee you there are foreign ammo makers who would love to cash in but cant get their goods in country.


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## mikewint (Jun 20, 2013)

Matt, While that is not something that would interest me it is a nice looking rifle and I have o problem with replica stuff as long as the quality is there and this appears to be very nicely done. You've got a nice every day shooter that looks and shoots perfectly, go for it.
Bobby, importation is not something I can speak to. The ammo that I have been able to buy locally has most often been imported, like Sellier Belloit .40S&W 600rnds opposed to 200rnds of Blazer and 100rnds of Winchester. So it would seem to me that more import is making it through than domestic. As far as .22WMR again I can't say with an authority. I have the PMR-30 Keltec, the Henry carbine, and a Heritage 6-shooter tat all use .22WMR and I like it as well, bangs like my .45 and shoots more flame. Supply Demand has indeed taken over. Big companies like Walmart could make the difference by demanding bonded shipments direct from the Mfgs rather than from regional distributers


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## Torch (Jun 27, 2013)

Finally found some .22lr...Federal Match 325rds in a box for 29.00. Could only buy 1 box at a time. Yeesh


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## Matt308 (Jun 27, 2013)

Criminee. $0.086/rd?!?!?! That's just flippin' wrong. An almost 500% increase in price in the last 10yrs. Robbery.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 27, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> Criminee. $0.086/rd?!?!?! That's just flippin' wrong. An almost 500% increase in price in the last 10yrs. Robbery.



The cheapest I have found .40 S&W is $20. The norm is $34, and the high is $44.

All for 50 rounds.


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## mikewint (Jun 27, 2013)

The last boxes of .22WMR I found were $12.95 for 50rnds almost $0.26 per round ironically .40S&W were $64 for 250rnds almost the same price per round but still cheaper than the Blazzers at $16 for 50
Unzip the file then use browser (explorer works) to view


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## GrauGeist (Jul 28, 2013)

I just recieved some items of my Dad's after about a year battling with his...let's call her the  female that he married several years ago...

Anyway, among the items were his military items like footlocker, mess kit, etc. and his M1 .30 carbine. Much to my surprise, his J.C. Higgins .22 rifle was in there as well!

I recall going to turkey-shoots with him as a kid, we had alot of fun...seeing this brings back many good memories.

It's in remarkable condition for sitting untouched for decades. It's still in it's original box with all accessories, complete with owner's manual!

The carbine is a Universal, s/n indicates it was made in early-mid 1942 and really nice condition. It's still in the box it was shipped with, from the Rock Island Arsenal. I'll see about getting some photos posted of them in the next day or so.

I always used to bug my Dad about getting the carbine and now that I have it, it just doesn't seem all that important anymore...this "getting older" thing isn't as great as I thought it would be when I was younger, you know?


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## Readie (Jul 28, 2013)

Long desired objects are often like that Dave.
I have often thought that wanting the object is better than actually having it....


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## GrauGeist (Jul 28, 2013)

Agreed, John

It wasn't the matter of actually having the carbine, it was more along the lines of giving him a hard time (light hearted, of course). Think of it as: "it's not the trophy, but the thrill of the chase" 

I would much rather have Dad around than "things".


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## Readie (Jul 28, 2013)

Nothing like having a josh with your Dad. Mine is long gone and no one really fills the 'dad' space in your life.
I know what you mean about things.. my dad's WW2 army stuff had a relevance when he was alive as there was a tale attached to the items.
I wish I had written them down.


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## yulzari (Jul 29, 2013)

Yes stuff is nice but it's just stuff. Stuff can be replaced but memories are always there and you always wish you had asked more questions when it is too late.


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## Readie (Jul 29, 2013)

yulzari said:


> Yes stuff is nice but it's just stuff. Stuff can be replaced but memories are always there and you always wish you had asked more questions when it is too late.



That is so true John.


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## vikingBerserker (Jul 29, 2013)

yulzari said:


> Yes stuff is nice but it's just stuff. Stuff can be replaced but memories are always there and you always wish you had asked more questions when it is too late.



Amen


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## Matt308 (Jul 31, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> I just recieved some items of my Dad's after about a year battling with his...let's call her the  female that he married several years ago...
> 
> Anyway, among the items were his military items like footlocker, mess kit, etc. and his M1 .30 carbine. Much to my surprise, his J.C. Higgins .22 rifle was in there as well!
> 
> ...



I think you might be mistaken that your Dad's Universal was his in WW2. Universal was a company that produced carbines in the 1960s out of Milspec parts. It ultimately started making their own version that was internally different and not milspec compatible. I own one. Gets lots of bad rap on the internet and perhaps deservingly so. My bolt is cracked, but it was absolutely reliable and a tack driver by comparison with some of the mil surplus stuff. Did you mean Underwood by chance?


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## GrauGeist (Jul 31, 2013)

He purchased his M1 through the CMP back in '63 (according to Mom...she did the paperwork for him!) lol

It's an older (well, back then) model, and The original shipping box stillhas the shipping label and everything. I'll include some photos of that along with the rifle.

I'll see if I can get you a real nice shot of the Universal stamp on the rear of the reciever, slightly obscured by the rear sight.


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## Matt308 (Jul 31, 2013)

learn something every day

Here check this out. I'm still thinking you may be misremembering the provenance. If you have the CMP for Universal Sporting Goods M1, I'm thinking you have a real prize (Like a quarter with only one face stamped).

http://www.fulton-armory.com/\faqs\M1C-FAQs\M1Carbine.htm


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## GrauGeist (Jul 31, 2013)

Good God, I just now realized I wrote Universal...I had meant Inland Division (Inland Div.) many apologies for the screw-up...

I'm in the process of getting some photos to share...I'll have 'em posted here soon.


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## Matt308 (Jul 31, 2013)

I was trying to be polite. It's difficult for me.


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## GrauGeist (Jul 31, 2013)

You did well! 

Still not sure where Universal came from...even my M1 .30s aren't Universal...

Anyway, this rifle has been stashed away in it's box for over 40 years. Dad never fired it, matter of fact, it was "lost" for quite some time and eventually turned up in his garage. It has some light surface rust, mostly on raised edges, like the front sight. The bore looks to be n great shape, no signs of pitting or rust (other than a light surface haze).

It is going to need some good cleaning, in the last photo, you'll see the mummified remains of a rubber band that held an inspection tag (which has long since crumbled into dust) and it'll need to be cleaned off the stock while I'm at it.

The box itself is cool in the respect that it has the W5 inspection stamp all over, along with the Rock Island Arsenal insignia.

And here's the photos:
I obscured our address, even though it's been 40 years since we lived there...
(NSA knows the address anyway...they're like my ex, they know everything)






Here she is seeing daylight for the first time in God only knows how long...





Here's an attempt to show the Inland Div. stamp conveniently hidden under the rear sight.
Also shows great detail in how badly it needs cleaning.


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## MacArther (Jul 31, 2013)

Niiiiiice! Also a good friend of mine just found a Walther PPK registered to East German Police....how that came to be in his father's possession when he was a US serviceman in Vietnam is anyone's guess....


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## Bucksnort101 (Jul 31, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> You did well!
> 
> Still not sure where Universal came from...even my M1 .30s aren't Universal...
> 
> ...



Nice!!!! I've got some 30 Carbine ammo laying around that will probably never get used since I don't own a .30 carbine anymore. Next time I'm in your neck of the woods I'll drop by and we can dispose of that ammo properly


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## Matt308 (Jul 31, 2013)

Probably traded his .45 for it. Done quite often actually. Most of those young GIs wanted the other guys weapons. And for the most part, kicked themselves later for doing so. I've always wanted a Webley. But since I would like to shoot it, I don't want to have to reload yet another caliber.

And the carbine looks flippin awesome. Don't you dare do anything but apply some Hoppe's No.9 or equivalent and some gun oil. Whatever you do, don't attempt to scrub off the surface rust (by the pic it is VERY minimal and would likely rank NRA 100% for a collectable... yes 100%). I'm so pissed I tossed my CMP box from my M1D. Dammit.

While dated to 1942, it has under gone at least one arsenal rebuild. It has the late model sights and what looks to be the flat bolt. You also have the newer trigger assembly and safety switch. The original safety was a push button type right next to the mag release. You can only imagine the number of cuss words uttered in battle, before they decided a change might be necessary. How the original set up made it through evaluations is beyond me.


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## GrauGeist (Jul 31, 2013)

MacArther said:


> Niiiiiice! Also a good friend of mine just found a Walther PPK registered to East German Police....how that came to be in his father's possession when he was a US serviceman in Vietnam is anyone's guess....


My Uncle came back from Vietnam with a couple of Soviet junior officer souveniers...he never did say how he came into possesion of them...



Bucksnort101 said:


> Nice!!!! I've got some 30 Carbine ammo laying around that will probably never get used since I don't own a .30 carbine anymore. Nest time I'm in your neck of the woods I'll drop by and we can dispose of that ammo properly


Sounds like a deal! The M1 carbine has always been one of my favorites to take to the range


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## GrauGeist (Jul 31, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> And the carbine looks flippin awesome. Don't you dare do anything but apply some Hoppe's No.9 or equivalent and some gun oil. Whatever you do, don't attempt to scrub off the surface rust (by the pic it is VERY minimal and would likely rank NRA 100% for a collectable... yes 100%). I'm so pissed I tossed my CMP box from my M1D. Dammit.
> 
> While dated to 1942, it has under gone at least one arsenal rebuild. It has the late model sights and what looks to be the flat bolt. You also have the newer trigger assembly and safety switch. The original safety was a push button type right next to the mag release. You can only imagine the number of cuss words uttered in battle, before they decided a change might be necessary. How the original set up made it through evaluations is beyond me.


Not to worry, Matt, it'll simply be wiped clean with a soft flannel and some oil. The rubber band is pretty stubborn, but gently working it free (time effort) will see that solved.

Like I said, any rust that exists is simply a light haze, mostly found on sharp edges, like the front sights. In places on the rifle, like at the rear of the reciever where the stock meets up, has what looks like a very thin layer of cosmoline that was half-assed applied. Also on the stock by the sling groove, left side where the pistol grip meets the butt portion, is an area that's been ground. It almost looks like there was the "flaming cannonball" armory insignia stamped in there at one time. I'll see if I can get a photo of that later.

The box is deteriorating but the oiled shipping sleeve is holding up well.


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## bobbysocks (Jul 31, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> Good God, I just now realized I wrote Universal...I had meant Inland Division (Inland Div.) many apologies for the screw-up...
> 
> I'm in the process of getting some photos to share...I'll have 'em posted here soon.



sure it isnt rock island? i remember them as a manufacturer of m1s

update...yeah it is. just looked at the post with the box. i am in the midst of cleaning a bunch of stuff up. i may have some parts for that....magazines...stripper clips...trigger parts. i have no use for them. will look but it may take me some time.


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## GrauGeist (Jul 31, 2013)

bobbysocks said:


> sure it isnt rock island? i remember them as a manufacturer of m1s
> 
> update...yeah it is. just looked at the post with the box. i am in the midst of cleaning a bunch of stuff up. i may have some parts for that....magazines...stripper clips...trigger parts. i have no use for them. will look but it may take me some time.


I do remember Dad saying there was a cleaning kit but I haven't seen it...no telling where it's gotten off to over the years.

Any parts are always welcome and much appreciated. Do to several circumstances in the past, I don't have many spare parts for anything anymore. I just recently managed to find replacement clips for my Revelation .22 bolt action (mfg. by Marlin) which was pure joy after many years of searching with no results.

I'll get another photo of the box, showing the arsenal approval stamps (found in several places) and some progress shots of the old beauty getting a good cleaning, and post those in the next few days.

While I'm at it, I'll post some photos of Dad's J.C. Higgins .22, which is in it's original box, with accessories and even it's owner manual.

I look forward to taking that .22 to the range when I am able to stand and shoulder a weapon. It will bring back some good memories.


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## Matt308 (Jul 31, 2013)

Look forward to it, man. I have a JC Higgins (JC Penneys) .22LR that my dad had. I would kill to have it rebuilt. I've looked in Gun Parts, but its such a generic POS that I can't figure out parts for it.


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## javlin (Jul 31, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> Probably traded his .45 for it. Done quite often actually. Most of those young GIs wanted the other guys weapons. And for the most part, kicked themselves later for doing so. I've always wanted a Webley. But since I would like to shoot it, I don't want to have to reload yet another caliber.
> 
> And the carbine looks flippin awesome. Don't you dare do anything but apply some Hoppe's No.9 or equivalent and some gun oil. Whatever you do, don't attempt to scrub off the surface rust (by the pic it is VERY minimal and would likely rank NRA 100% for a collectable... yes 100%). I'm so pissed I tossed my CMP box from my M1D. Dammit.
> 
> While dated to 1942, it has under gone at least one arsenal rebuild. It has the late model sights and what looks to be the flat bolt. You also have the newer trigger assembly and safety switch. The original safety was a push button type right next to the mag release. You can only imagine the number of cuss words uttered in battle, before they decided a change might be necessary. How the original set up made it through evaluations is beyond me.



....and a type three front band.No big deal though atleast you know it is an offical rebuild with that box!!I wonder if the trigger group is Inland?Alot of times the it would be different later in the war I have an IBM group in mine.Very nice rig and easily probably $1200-1500 maybe with that box and if the trigger group Inland add another $200 maybe.

Matt I got an ole Higgins(father-in-law's) I shoot that was unreliable when you had expended 14rds would jam.So I finally took it down and the nylon recoil pad was crack and ready to crumple.So I ordered another one from here https://www.gunpartscorp.com/ for about $7 and it fixed the problem it seems have not shot it awhole lot neighbors can of frown city limits and all  They have all kind of parts for MG42's,Thompsons and the ole carbines.


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## Matt308 (Jul 31, 2013)

...I'd gladly take it off your hands for $500


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## javlin (Jul 31, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> ...I'd gladly take it off your hands for $500



$600!


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## Matt308 (Aug 1, 2013)




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## GrauGeist (Aug 1, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> ...I'd gladly take it off your hands for $500


 


javlin said:


> $600!


Don't stop now! Keep going! 

I'll have more pix of the M1 Carbine here in a while...

I took some photos of the J.C. Higgins as promised, but I had physical therapy and that took all the fun out of the rest of the day. 

So here's the .22 Dad and I would take out to the Cub Scout turkey shoots or a Saturday afternoon plink-fest:


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## Shortround6 (Aug 1, 2013)

I think it is a Marlin 56 if you are looking for parts.


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## Matt308 (Aug 1, 2013)

fookin beauty man...


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## mikewint (Aug 2, 2013)

Dave, really nice guns. Have looked at a few M1s at gun shows but I don't think I could use the sights and there did not seem to be an easy way to mount a laser or scope. JC Higgins brings back a lot of memories as well though my first .22 was a Marlin 39 wish I still had it.
As to beauty, my two gdaughters Sophie and Liz came for a visit and wanted to do some shooting. Started them off with a .22 automatics, graduated to my .45 XDm and finally the M16. Both are excellent shots and cleaned out the bullseye


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## GrauGeist (Aug 2, 2013)

Good to see girls working the 'ol shootin' iron. That appears to be an Umarex .22 LR?

As far as the M1 Carbine is concerned, it's a nice compact piece of iron that would be very capable in an urban (door to door) or dense woodland situation, but for open affairs, I would certainly opt for a platform that had a reach to it with either iron sights (like my Mauser) or optics.


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## mikewint (Aug 3, 2013)

Dave, nope, Bushmaster .223 / 5.56 M16 carbine. Pics are posted earlier in this thread


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## Matt308 (Aug 3, 2013)

Nice pics, Mike. Cute gals. You must be proud.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 3, 2013)

mikewint said:


> Dave, nope, Bushmaster .223 / 5.56 M16 carbine. Pics are posted earlier in this thread


Gotcha...long thread though, you're asking me to remember stuff that goes past yesterday. That could be a challenge, you know 

I know I posted it before in this thread, but here's my Umarex .22LR


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## mikewint (Aug 4, 2013)

Matt, indeed I am. They are both going into their sophmore year, Sophie at the U of I, and Laz at U of Fla (Tampa). Liz is going to be part of a marine biology team leaving on a research ship going around the world. She will be at sea for her entire soph year. They could only spend a week as both work summers. Besides the guns we went tubing and I gave them a class A ride. Liz is an excellent water skier. Sophie had never skied but picked it up after about 8 trys. Not the greatist form but she stayed up.
Dave, excellent gun, and at one time cheap to shoot (when you could find .22LR). I bought a kit that converts the .223 into .22LR. Used it quite a bit until lately. Can find more .223 than .22, unreal


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 4, 2013)

I am looking into purchasing an AR-15 when I get back home.

Sort of out of nostalgic purposes.

I wan't a decent one, without spending an arm and a leg. Any recomendations anyone?


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## mikewint (Aug 4, 2013)

Chris, I love the Bushmaster. Have had it for 3 years now, over 2000 rounds, never a hic-cup. Match-grade chromed barrel is dead on. About $1000


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## GrauGeist (Aug 4, 2013)

Here's a few more photos of Dad's M1...

I had mentioned some markings on the stock, this shows the "RRA CSA" stamp and where an engraved number or ID was ground off with what looks like a wire wheel:





Next view shows the reciever/chamber detail:





This view shows the extent of the rust to be found on the rifle:





This last photo shows the box and sleeve the rifle was shipped in:


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## vikingBerserker (Aug 4, 2013)

Now that is truly beautiful.


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## Matt308 (Aug 5, 2013)

Looks like it has never been fired.


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## Torch (Aug 5, 2013)

You can't go wrong with a S&W M&P 15 also. Those things are the Harleys of the gun world. I purchased a base M&P and added exactly what I wanted,free floated the barrel and shoots nice groups.Reasonably priced also compared to say Daniels Defense or LaRue's.


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## Matt308 (Aug 5, 2013)

There's just something about a Colt. You almost can't go wrong with any of the major manufacturers. They all use virtually the same receiver and other parts. This is apparently why they dried up for a while.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 5, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> Looks like it has never been fired.


It has not been fired since the day Dad got it. That Carbine has pretty much spent it's entire existance in the back of a closet (and later, on a shelf in his garage)...

So whatever action it saw in it's first twenty years is the extent of it.


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## javlin (Aug 5, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> It has not been fired since the day Dad got it. That Carbine has pretty much spent it's entire existance in the back of a closet (and later, on a shelf in his garage)...
> 
> So whatever action it saw in it's first twenty years is the extent of it.



I hope you don't mind posted some pics on another board the "CSA" is what I am interested in.I had one reponse it could be armourer's mark then I got this response

Javlin; TommyGunn; All,

"RRA" is the "old" stamp for RED RIVER ARSENAL, which currently is called RED RIVER ARMY DEPOT, in Bowie County, TX. - RRAD is about 18 miles west of Texarkana, TX off I-30.
("RRAD" is the "new stamping".)

Now does that show on the box?I thought I saw IL.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 5, 2013)

No problem with sharing the photo...I'd be interested in knowing what it means, also.

The rifle was shipped to Dad from the Rock Island Arsenal in the early 60's, so where it had been before that, I can only guess.

If you look closely past the RRA CSA, there's an engraved alpha-numeric "serial" number that was ground off. I can barely make it out...looks like it started with a "G" and then a series of numbers


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## mikewint (Aug 5, 2013)

CSA - Confederate States of America???
Matt - Colt is an excellent M16 but just because COLT is stamped on it add $200 - $500


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## Matt308 (Aug 5, 2013)

Yeah... but it is a Colt. You wouldn't admire Dirty Harry's S&W Model 29 .44Mag and buy a perfectly good Taurus large frame that looks virtually just like it. Just sayin'. Like I said in my post, there are lots of AR manufacturers. And for the most part you can't hardly go wrong. But if you are only going to buy one and it is at the top of your bucket list, go for the original. Like the M1 Carbine. My Universal functions, but it is not the same as GG's dad's rifle. Provenance does count for something. Just ask somebody who's willing to pay $25k for an original Thompson. Not me!!


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## MacArther (Aug 5, 2013)

So a slight correction. Its a Walther PP dated 1968 WITHOUT import stamps. The friend also has the original manual and parts list/diagram in reeeeeaaally good shape! On a related note, the .32 ACP the Walther is chambered in is quite pleasant to shoot, aside from the humongous first trigger pull in double action.


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## Matt308 (Aug 5, 2013)

...and .32ACP is Bond's caliber!


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## javlin (Aug 5, 2013)

Alright GrauGeist i found this little tidbit now while it's relating to M1 Garands it is pertient.

EB:Elmer Bjerke was promoted on January 6th, 1947 to Forman of small arms inspection at Rock Island Arsenal. He was responsible for the final inspection of new and overhauled small arms. He served in that capacity until 1958. All small arms inspected under his supervision bear the markings "RIA" for Rock Island Arsenal and "EB" for Elmer Bjerke.

Frank Krack was Assistant Foreman of the Inspection Division at Rock Island Arsenal from September 17, 1941 until he retired on July 19th, 1946. During that period all small arms inspected under his supervision would be stamped with his initials "FK" as well as those of the Rock Island Arsenal "RIA

Arsenal overhaul and inspection stamps

Now if I can find out who was in charge of RRA in from WWII to 1960 might be his initials?I have another thought the the gun came in a RIA box must of been how things were sold to the public you know central store front to say?Kinda like this story/search


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## javlin (Aug 5, 2013)

I tracked down this ...........then I noticed Scott Duff name I have his M1a book excellant! and I have an M1 carbine book out back though I think it's USGI issue??

Carbine Rebuild Markings



Anniston Arsenal: AN
Agusta Arsenal: AA
Benicia Arsenal: BA
Mt. Rainer Ordance Depot: MR
Ogden Arsenal: OG
Raritan Arsenal: RA
Red River Arsenal: RRA
Rock Island Armory: RIA [EB] or RIA [FK]

San Antonio Armory: C-SAA
Springfield Armory: S.A. or S.H.M
Standard Products STD, PROD, RWH
Underwood .U.
Credit Scott Duff and Larry Ruth

M1 Carbine


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## GrauGeist (Aug 5, 2013)

Good info there, Thanks!

This is cool, learning about this Carbine's history 

Here's a site I came across while searching for clues, loaded with good information:
The U.S. Caliber .30 Carbines - Post WWII


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## javlin (Aug 5, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> Good info there, Thanks!
> 
> This is cool, learning about this Carbine's history
> 
> ...



Been awhile since I looked at that site had to add to favorites again.Interesting tidbit there also showing a stock hit twice for rearsenal so is armourer's mark or another rearsenal?I am thinking maybe RRA first rearsernal with CSA as the second just why not CSSA.I have not found anything yet on RRA's history might email Stan if he can track anything he is not far from there.


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## javlin (Aug 5, 2013)

I think we have hit the answer dfariswheel has the answer it looks like.....and you have something there GG 

What you have is a Carbine that was bought from the US Army Director of Civilian Marksmanship, (DCM) program in the late 50's or early 60's.

This was a US Army administered program to provide surplus firearms and ammo to people who might be potential recruits in time of war.
They also provided rifles and ammo to gun clubs that were affiliated with the DCM program and ran a junior shooters club.
Obviously the idea was the juniors would be drafted into the service when they turned 18 or older.

The DCM was run out of an office in Washington with a US Army officer "in command" with all civilian workers.
Rifles and ammo were sold only to NRA members.
When rifles or ammo were surplussed, a notice was put in the American Rifleman magazine telling you what was available, and you sent in an application. 
It was first come first served.
Rifles and ammo were shipped from whatever arsenal had them available when your application was processed.

The DCM was replaced by the current Civilian Marksmanship Program, (CMP).

Carbines were primarily shipped from Red River Arsenal, and were shipped in the early days by REA Express, later by UPS.
I got my Carbine in 1965, shipped via UPS.
It came in a similar box, cost was $20.00. That was $17.50 for the Carbine, $2.50 UPS shipping.

Carbines were in "serviceable, safe to fire" condition, and were almost always Carbines that had been rebuilt or upgraded during their service time.
When a Carbine was put through an official rebuild program, the arsenal doing the rebuild stamped the arsenal ID stamp on the stock. If it was put through two rebuild programs, the second re-builder added their stamp.
There were no inspectors stamps added to Carbines after they were manufactured, only arsenal stamps for official rebuilds, so CSA is not an inspectors stamp.
If a Carbine was just repaired while in service, Ordnance put no stamps on them, since it wasn't an official rebuild program.

A DCM Carbine with the original arsenal shipping box would have high collector interest. The box makes it worth much more, and if you have the shipping documents that would add even more.
The documents were considered "Proof of sale" from US Government to civilian ownership. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by dfariswheel; 08-06-2013 at 02:07 AM


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## GrauGeist (Aug 5, 2013)

I immediately thought it may have been rebuilt post WWII and then again, post Korea, hence the RRA and the CSA stamps.

Like I mentioned earlier, it was purchased through the CMP in 1963 (My Mom actually did the paperwork for Dad...funny story there for another day), so what you see in the pictures is what he recieved from the Rock Island Arsenal way back then.

There was some paperwork bundled around the stock at the reciever, but it's long since crumbled and disappeared, leaving the mummified rubberband behind. Otherwise, it's all there.

Never been wiped down, never been fired and perhaps seen the light of day a handful of times since 1963.


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## Matt308 (Aug 5, 2013)

{shoulda kept my crappy CMP box for my M1D dammit. Dammit. DAMMIT!!  }

Then again... I cleaned the cosmoline off and fired it. I don't buy guys look at. So WTF.


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## javlin (Aug 5, 2013)

Well it has providence GG and a story to boot keep her dry.$20 man did I miss the boat  Matt I still have the box for my Thompson need to get that thing roll'in and just bite the bullet on the $200 for the SBR paperwork then the barrel replacement.Then I can play Sargent Limpton(sp) of Band of Brothers


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## Matt308 (Aug 5, 2013)

I know. I want an Auto Ordnance M1A1 SBR. Bad.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 5, 2013)

I sure miss my 1911...that's about the only thing I'm wanting to get (replace) these days.

Been also keeping an eye out for an 870 wingmaster. Used to have one years ago, wouldn't mind owning another. Not a priority, though.


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## bobbysocks (Aug 6, 2013)

i kick myself for not snagging one of these when the lend lease stuff was coming back from latin america in the late 80s. i was selling them for $165. they werent in the greatest of shape...but they were re-phosphated ( inside and out )....the price was right.


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## Matt308 (Aug 6, 2013)

I've got a Remington 11-87 that came off a cruise ship. Sure didn't get much use prior to dumping it to me it appears. :scratchhead: Couple hundred of rounds thru it maybe. I just took it apart, cleaned it up and put it back into the carrying case it came with. Even came with extra chokes. They dumped 2 of them. Hmmm...


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## vikingBerserker (Aug 6, 2013)

I used to shoot skeet and quail with a Remington Model 11 and was a pleasure to shoot. Man I miss that gun.


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## MacArther (Aug 7, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> ...and .32ACP is Bond's caliber!


SWEET! Although I always thought it was somehow modded 9mm...but OK!


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## GrauGeist (Aug 7, 2013)

I thought Bond used a .380 PPK as his issued sidearm


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## Matt308 (Aug 7, 2013)

Not originally. Was the PPK 7.65mm (.32ACP). Pretty anemic round, though I wouldn't want to be shot with a .22LR.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 7, 2013)

Gotcha

My Grandmother's Savage automatic is a .32 and barks like a SOB for such a small caliber.

And I agree, no matter the size of projectile, I'm not too thrilled about having holes put in my body...


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## Matt308 (Aug 7, 2013)

Yeah, some of those pop gun .22s will go through 12-13 inches of ordnance gelatin. Thats too deep for even my padding.


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## javlin (Aug 7, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> Yeah, some of those pop gun .22s will go through 12-13 inches of ordnance gelatin. Thats too deep for even my padding.



and having said that you take 10 from this little guy and you now 300g's of lead in ya.


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rfJy4exPFE_


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## Matt308 (Aug 7, 2013)

I'm utterly shocked with that video. I wouldn't use .22LR as a defensive round for the only reason that rimfire primer is extremely unreliable. But that was an impressive video. Perhaps $40/500rds is not worth it. NOT!


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## mikewint (Aug 8, 2013)

Matt, there is a youtube video on .22LR leathality. These two guys took a 5-6 beef roast, wrapped it in 12 layers of blue jean denim, put it 300yds out and shot at it with .22LR (CCI hornet as I recall). Wind really blew the little bullets around but they made about 4- 5 solid hits. Every round went through and out the back. Acouple of the little rounds fragmented and expanded. 
I'm with you on the defensive round but that's pretty inpressive. I keep the PMR-30 right nest to the bed. 30rds of .22WMR is going to make a big owie


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## Matt308 (Aug 8, 2013)

You got that right! And as a bonus all that excess powder will light your room for at least 20 seconds so you can find your glasses.


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## mikewint (Aug 9, 2013)

That's for sure, they'll think I'm using a 20mm cannon.
On another note, that .22LR mahine gun looks like my old Kodak Carousel slide projector. If that's gravity drop seems you'd have to be very careful on the angle you are shooting at or your going to get a jam


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## GrauGeist (Aug 9, 2013)

I kind of thought that double barrel Ruger 10-22 Gatling Gun looked like a real kick in the drawers...of course, I can't habe something like that out here because it's on the "guns that look scary" list.

As far as flash goes, I have found that out of all my firearms, my 7x57 Mauser unleashes a wicked blue-orange flame that looks downright apocolyptic. I have plans to capture that with my camera someday, too.


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## Matt308 (Aug 9, 2013)

I would love to see that pic. I personally have never shot any of my guns at night with the exception of my Browning .22 Buckmark (know your backstop and whatnot). What a flash!!! Course then again in .22LR they are not using low-flash powder. But good God Almighty!


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## GrauGeist (Aug 9, 2013)

I have a lightning trigger for my Pentax DSLR that is sensitive enough to catch lightning, but will trigger on aircraft strobes and even a cigarette lighter.

I just haven't had a chance to get to an area where I can fire the Mauser in low light. Local range is daylight hours and there's too many people around my folk's place nowdays


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## s1chris (Aug 10, 2013)

On a site with Americans who can have real guns I feel a bit sheepish about posting this but here's my "protector" I mean hunting very small animals rifle - 

A .22 Crossman Phantom







It might not be a Barrett .50cal but it will kill anything that land in my back garden, that's for sure. 

Cheers chris


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## GrauGeist (Aug 10, 2013)

s1chris said:


> On a site with Americans who can have real guns *I feel a bit sheepish about posting this* but here's my "protector" I mean hunting very small animals rifle -
> 
> A .22 Crossman Phantom
> 
> ...


Your rifle looks real to me...nothing wrong with that. A pellet rifle or a firearm all have thier purposes. Even if it's just for target shooting.

As far as "killing anything that lands in the back garden", that didn't go over well with my Mom when I was a kid. I shot and killed a Sparrow in the backyard with my pellet rifle and Mom was furious! She made me retreive it and then prepared it for my dinner that evening and made me eat it.

Lesson learned, trust me.


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## s1chris (Aug 10, 2013)

Hey that's a national dish in Italy. Well, now that you can't catch/shoot Robins (I don't condone killing little birdies). 
Even shooting in your back garden in the Uk is a nightmare. Basically you can't shoot anything unless you have taken reasonable humane steps to deter the pigeons away. Me sat that we said rifle is surely enough of a deterant though!

Also lucky I have a long driveway that takes me far enough away from the "public" centre of the road to be able to shoot. 
Gets a bit boring though and I really need to find a farmer who wants his rabbit problem controlling. The problem I find is that they seem to judge me because I am relatively young and think I just want to mess about. 

Like you say, regardless of the calibre it is still a weapon and can kill in the wrong hands. I'm quite happy that we can't all have AK47's in the UK or else it would be a bloody blood bath on the streets now that the old school way of sorting out your differences is long gone.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 10, 2013)

I have to agree with the terrible state of civil attitude in today's societies. Back in the day, a fight was with fists and the first one down ended the fight.

Nowdays, it's usually many-on-one and when the poor bastard is down, they stomp the sh!t out of the poor guy. Then if that's not bad enough, you beat a guy in a fair fight, they want revenge instead of manning up and accept the fact they got thier azz whipped.


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## Matt308 (Aug 10, 2013)

Nice bb gun. I have an old scoped Crossman 560xl (I think that is the designation) pellet rifle with a brass receiver. Was my second gun (wore out my Daisy) that I got for Christmas when I was 9 (mid 1970s). I used to kill birds every other day with a buddy of mine to feed to his older brother's pet hawks. I have hunted every thing from small birds, crows, rats, rabbit (only 1, wily bastards), possum, my personal nemesis the woodpeckerhead and many a can. I shoot every woodpeckerhead I spot. They have tore the $hit out of the siding of my house. There are some birds in the US that states have been deemed invasive and you are allowed to eradicate them (example European Starlings). Hunting with a bb gun is cheap and very instructive, as all the fundamentals still hold true.


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## mikewint (Aug 10, 2013)

The .22 pellet can be, shall we say, enhanced.
*Armor-piercing *- get .22 hollow-point pellets. Use super glue to glue a .177 cal BB into the hollow of the hollow-point ammo. You can go even further and glue a second BB into the back skirt of the pellet. Don't use too much glue
*Explosive pellets *- get some toy caps (the round plastic ones) use a pin to remove the front paper seal, then use a wooden match-stick to remove the powder. Collect the powder on a small piece of paper. Carefully pour powder into the hollow of the hollow-point pellet. When full add a drop of water. Allow to dry. powder will harden
*Incendiary pellets *- get some "strike-anywhere" (non-safety) matches. Carefully crush the red tips with a needle-nose pliers. Collect the powder in a small container. when you have enough, add a few drops of water and stir until powder dissolves. Use an eyedropper and fill the hollow of the hollow-point pellet with the disloved match heads. Allow to dry. 
Pellet-guns can be made extra special fun....


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## GrauGeist (Aug 10, 2013)

Lots of ingenuity there! 

Better not say what we did as kids with large steel ball-bearing, a peice of masking tape and a 12 gauge shotshell..


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## Matt308 (Aug 10, 2013)

I used to put multiple bbs in my gun (the bolt is magnetized so you can string up to 5 or 6 easily) and pump to maximum. However, I quickly learned that accuracy went to a hell and a hand basket and velocity was silly slow. Even an up close "blast was worthless".

If you have a bb gun that is rifled, use bbs for plinking. Use pellets (rifled stabalized) for accuracy. If you do use bbs, don't pump them to max velocity. They will spiral. Use a lesser velocity and your accuracy will be much better (more gooder to Readie).


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## vikingBerserker (Aug 10, 2013)

Where the hell were you 30 years ago when I could have used this knowledge????

Target wise I would only use 3 which will do wonders on the windows of ones Uncle's old car he was trying to fix.


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## Torch (Aug 11, 2013)

You would be surprised on how many pellet guns are out there, with the price and availability of ammo they are very popular now...Kick myself in the arse for getting rid of an old RWS Diana.


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## Matt308 (Aug 11, 2013)

Now there is a nice pellet rifle! I now have my Dad's Benjamin. Downloaded the manual. Max 8 pumps. But you have to be an Olympic weight lifter to get much past 4 pumps. Very nicely built though. Nothing plastic. Need to get a scope for it. Here is what it looks like (from internet).


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## bobbysocks (Aug 11, 2013)

with the price of ammo as high as it is...a pellet gun is perfect for target practice. i bought an el cheapo chinese 177 years ago to help maintain my marksmanship and teach my kids firearm safety and shooting. bought a pump pellet pistol later on for the same reason. i could practice in my back yard or basement and not have to drive to a range. used gallon milk jugs at 50 ft intervals....


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## Matt308 (Aug 12, 2013)

Cleaning out Dad's stuff, found a Remington 870 Defender 12ga. NIB. Also discovered this S&W Model 66-4 .357Mag.


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## vikingBerserker (Aug 12, 2013)

That is one beautiful work of art!


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## Matt308 (Aug 12, 2013)

Smith and Wesson does know how to make 'em pretty.


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## bobbysocks (Aug 12, 2013)

NICE find!!


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## mikewint (Aug 12, 2013)

Matt, very nice. Always liked the .357 that way you can plink/target with .38 special and load .357mag for business.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 12, 2013)

Nice!

Been considering a Ruger GP100 for quite some time...may actually go and get one since I can't replace my 1911...


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## mikewint (Aug 12, 2013)

Dave check out the Springfield XDm .45


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## Matt308 (Aug 12, 2013)

Can't go wrong with a GP100. I own a S&W 686+ (7-shot) .357Mag 6 incher. I love the full underlug look. My dad's Model 66 makes a good companion. My 686+ looks like this (pic from internet... to lazy to open the safe).


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## Matt308 (Aug 12, 2013)

mikewint said:


> Dave check out the Springfield XDm .45



He lives in Kalifornia, Mike. While I'm not knocking the XDm, he loses 10rds of mag capacity to the gov't.


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## mikewint (Aug 12, 2013)

Matt, wow, did not know that. Even after market mags? My .357 is the Python there is just something abou it, love its looks though a 6-gun


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## Matt308 (Aug 12, 2013)

They won't ship to Kali. He would have to get someone to ship them to him (illegally). You should see what Kali is proposing as I write this. A wonderful law that bans all semi-automatic rifles that feed from removable magazine. And all magazines would have to be forfeited to Kali gov't. Go Kali. Instead of us discussing gun control laws and spiralling into a political discussion, just google it and read the San Jose Mercury News article. Apparently it has alread pass State Senate. 'nuff said. More gun porn please!


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## Matt308 (Aug 12, 2013)

mikewint said:


> Matt, wow, did not know that. Even after market mags? My .357 is the Python there is just something abou it, love its looks though a 6-gun



Yeah I love the Python too. Almost bought one way back in the 1990s. My understanding though is that you want to treat her real gentle. She has a petite frame, but she is a beauty!!


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## GrauGeist (Aug 12, 2013)

mikewint said:


> Dave check out the Springfield XDm .45


I've eyeballed it (and several others, trust me), but I'm dead-set on replacing my Colt



Matt308 said:


> Can't go wrong with a GP100. I own a S&W 686+ (7-shot) .357Mag 6 incher. I love the full underlug look. My dad's Model 66 makes a good companion. My 686+ looks like this (pic from internet... to lazy to open the safe).


Beautiful!
I have always lusted after the GP100 .357 in SS with a 4" (thought about 6", also) but never got around to purchasing one. I am surprised they are still around, because it always seems anything I would like to get becomes obsolete.

Example: I saw the Winchester Model 94-10 (.410 gauge) and decided I needed it to compliment my pre-64 Model 94...well, by the time I got around to buying one, they were  discontinued...

And I am not really happy with the "scary looking gun frightens me" laws here in California...I think it's a serious load of bullsh!t. The ONLY reason I cannot replace my 1911 is because it won't pass that  drop-test.

As far as I'm concerned, dropping the weapon with a chambered round from a height of at least 5 feet, miraculously landing just perfectly on the hammer so it discharges is really stretching the limits of reason and I'd like to find the a-hole that passed this legislation and repeatedly kick them in the cajones until my foot goes numb...


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## mikewint (Aug 12, 2013)

Matt, once again did not know that about Calif. Sad
An added bonus for the Python - It is a Proven Zombie Killer as Rick has demonstrated many times!!


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## Matt308 (Aug 12, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> As far as I'm concerned, dropping the weapon with a chambered round from a height of at least 5 feet, miraculously landing just perfectly on the hammer so it discharges is really stretching the limits of reason and I'd like to find the a-hole that passed this legislation and repeatedly kick them in the cajones until my foot goes numb...



Who has made that determination? Kali gov't!?!? Sounds arbitrary. Get a series 80 1911 with a firing pin safety block. Problem solved.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 12, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> Who has made that determination? Kali gov't!?!? Sounds arbitrary. Get a series 80 1911 with a firing pin safety block. Problem solved.


The same group of doichebags that ban "scary looking" weapons and call everything with a detachable clip an "assault wepon" never mind that the mini14 rancher is legal but the exact same mechanism in paramilitary dress is illegal...same rate of firepower, same caliber, only that the wood stock makes it legal because it isn't scary looking...

Those girly-men politicians in Sacto remind me of those goats that fall over dead when the umbrella opens...


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## Torch (Aug 12, 2013)

Hey Matt,just fyi. Had a 3" 66 that I really liked. let my wife use it for her NRA safety class. All was fine and dandy with my sissy loads and normal reloads. The wife had run out so I reached into my bag and pulled out another box of .357s.......HOT HOT HOT .357s,needless to say the wife was no longer happy and I had to use a 2x4 on the ejector to get rid of the spent shells. Point is it's a great little gun but i would avoid using hot rounds thru it for extended shooting times.


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## bobbysocks (Aug 12, 2013)

drop those politicions from 5 feet and see if they discharge anything! couldnt be worse than the crap they are spewing now... only problem is what kali does the rest of the country does sooner or later....shades of things to come i fear.


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## Torch (Aug 12, 2013)

... Some i still have,some are gone.


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## Matt308 (Aug 12, 2013)

Torch said:


> Hey Matt,just fyi. Had a 3" 66 that I really liked. let my wife use it for her NRA safety class. All was fine and dandy with my sissy loads and normal reloads. The wife had run out so I reached into my bag and pulled out another box of .357s.......HOT HOT HOT .357s,needless to say the wife was no longer happy and I had to use a 2x4 on the ejector to get rid of the spent shells. Point is it's a great little gun but i would avoid using hot rounds thru it for extended shooting times.



I'd bet money they were reloads or out of SAAMI specs for .357mag. If you had to hammer them out, then they were likely someones attempt to hotrod the .357 which does not need any help pressure wise.  And if you hammered your crane, I hope you check it for true. You may have done some serious damage.

And while I do not wish to admonish anybody, the worse thing one can do to a new or novice shooter is the "YouTube Funny" of loading a .44Mag with lite .44special rounds with a hot 300gr .44Mag or load a .357mag with lite .38spl rounds with one 180gr hot .357mag round. That will chase new shooters off quicker than Lucky in a bar with no liquor.


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## Torch (Aug 12, 2013)

The rounds were in spec,I didn't whack it too hard with the 2x4,everything was ok afterwards,just that the larger S&W frames deal with hotter loads a bit better.Those were my reloads and no I didn't try to prank the wife, I just happened to grab the 158gr bullets without carefully looking at the label. I started her on .22lr to warm up,then sissy .38spl loads,then my mistake. She's forgiven me by now.........I think.


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## Matt308 (Aug 12, 2013)




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## MacArther (Aug 13, 2013)

Torch said:


> ....She's forgiven me by now.........I think.


Depends....Are you still on the couch?


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## GrauGeist (Aug 13, 2013)




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## Matt308 (Aug 13, 2013)

Those are some nice looking guns there Torch. Wouldn't mind having your Sig just to say I owned one.


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## Torch (Aug 13, 2013)

The 220 match is one of the ones I got rid of,was pretty accurate but I could never get used to it's SAO trigger compared to the TRP in the pic. A good trigger on a 1911 is hard to beat. I have an Ed Brown and that TRP gives it a run for it's money.


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## mikewint (Aug 13, 2013)

Torch, if you are not waking up covered in lighter fluid you're probably forgiven
Sad when you have to sell them, then years later it costa a small fortune to get a duplicate. Besides my Python I sold a double barrel 12ga L.C. Smith shotgun Dad bought me when I turned 16. I'll never see another one in this life


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## Torch (Aug 13, 2013)

Alot were sold to cover a divorce(strike one,not the present wife)I regret getting rid of a bunch of them. I have kept my granddads French made SxS 16g and I have my fathers Belgium Browning Lightning O/U 12g, His Remmie 700 in a .308 that has taken more than it's fair share of deer. Also have my mother's deceased cousins 8mm sporterized Mauser and a great friends SS Beretta 92 compact(in the pic) who passed away way too young. I will hold onto them as long as I can. Since I have no kids it's going to be tough on whom I leave the stuff to. Probably 2 nephews, one is only 8 and he won't appreciate them,other is 21. Don't know if he gets married if he will have enough back bone to hold onto them. We'll see....Maybe my Ed Brown Special Forces to my niece who is ROTC now but heading into the med corp for 5 or so years. Then again I plan on living longer than that.


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## Matt308 (Aug 13, 2013)

Yeah, strange how the newer generation is disinterested. Likely our fault. When was the last time we took neighbor kids shooting? Then again that is an expensive proposition that we typically reserve for just us or our immediate family. Different times.


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## javlin (Aug 13, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> Yeah, strange how the newer generation is disinterested. Likely our fault. When was the last time we took neighbor kids shooting? Then again that is an expensive proposition that we typically reserve for just us or our immediate family. Different times.



Yea been awhile but have done it one of my son's friends went acouple of times.That day I brought 6-8 rifles and plenty of ammo and I guess if memory serves me right we stayed about 3-4 hours.The boy had to shoot every one of the rifles .Needless to say by the end of the afternoon(14yrs old) his shoulder was sore but had a smile on his face.He shot everything from 30 carbine>30-06>8mm.He had shot in real life what Call of Duty had presented in the game for the most part.


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## Matt308 (Aug 13, 2013)

Yep. My youngest boy got a huge smile on his face loading my Dad's Remington 870 12ga. He said, while it sounds just like Xbox, it was not accomplished near as fast as Master Chief! Hah!

[HALO reference for those not familiar with gaming]


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## GrauGeist (Aug 13, 2013)

While working the action on an 870 has a great sound (unless you're a bad guy in a dark room...and you don't have an 870), my money is on the sound of my military Remington square-back when you relase the bolt-lock and the chamber closes.

Now that's a sound that will make a bad guy in a dark room become friends with Jesus in a hurry...


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## Matt308 (Aug 13, 2013)

Ah... I have my grandfather's Browning A-5 (made in Belgium) that he purchased in the 1960s. If I'm thinking of the same Remington, we have similar looking shotguns. (pic from internet) Mine doesn't have the ribbed barrel. It is cylinder choke and was used for deer hunting back int he day. But she is gorgeous.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 13, 2013)

You can't beat the Belgian Browning squareback for beauty and function.

My Remington is the same, but it's a military version and has seen use. I posted a photo of it in this thread quite some time back


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## mikewint (Aug 13, 2013)

Then liability rears its ugly little head. Just recently in MO several friends were target shooting when one of the pistols "went off by itself" the bullet hit one of the gals in the head and she died a few days later. Police charged the shooter with "armed criminal action" and "reckless endangerment" now that she died other charges are being considered


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## Matt308 (Aug 13, 2013)

You have got to be f**king kidding me. Kinda like snowboarding down glacier crevasses, dying and suing the flipping national/state park. I hates people. But that is another thread.

And how does it go off by itself and yet a human is charged. [rhetorical question, I really don't want to know]


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## GrauGeist (Aug 13, 2013)

I wonder if "went off by itself" meant that a dud round wasn't properly cleared?

Or maybe it was just another case of those sinister "guns" being up to no good, just waiting to cause havoc when no one is looking...


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## mikewint (Aug 13, 2013)

SARCOXIE, Mo. -- A man from Joplin is charged with involuntary manslaughter for the death of a woman who was shot in the head. Windell Douglas Daniels, 31, was charged on Monday for the shooting of Kelly Crawford on Saturday morning near Sarcoxie. Crawford died at a hospital on Sunday.
A probable-cause affidavit says the homeowner told investigators that he, Daniels and Crawford had been drinking and shooting guns before the shooting. 

A detective's probable cause statement says Daniels, who was intoxicated, was inside the home using the laser aiming device and flashlight on a gun when the weapon went off, injuring Crawford.


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## Torch (Aug 13, 2013)

Nothing good comes out of mixing booze with guns,cars etc...


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## Matt308 (Aug 14, 2013)

Amen to that.


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## mikewint (Aug 14, 2013)

Unfortunately we all get painted with the same broad brush


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## Shortround6 (Aug 14, 2013)

tens of thousands of loaded guns have existed in drawers, cabinets, closets, under beds and on shelves for many, many, many years without a verified instance of ONE of them going off "by itself" (aside from being caught in a fire or some such). Yet the number of guns that have gone off "by themselves" when held in somebody's hand/s is rather high. 

Must be the presence of body oil or body temperature or..........?


Please note I am not saying that these are 'safe' storage methods/locations.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 14, 2013)

Shortround6 said:


> tens of thousands of loaded guns have existed in drawers, cabinets, closets, under beds and on shelves for many, many, many years without a verified instance of ONE of them going off "by itself" ...


Back in the early 80's, I discovered a Marlin Model 1893 rifle while exploring an old barn in eastern Orange county. It had been standing in the corner of the tack room for at least 60 years and was in remarkable condition.

I wasn't able to check the chamber because the lever action was stiff from so many years of inactivity so I took a little extra care with it. Once home, I discovered it was not only loaded (two in the magazine), but had a .30-30 round chambered.

The old addage of "assume it's always loaded" certainly applied here and I also noticed that in all those decades of sitting idle, it clearly shows that it didn't leap off the bench and loose a few rounds when no one was looking...


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## mikewint (Aug 14, 2013)

Shortround, while I do understand gun-safes and trigger-locks, a locked-up gun is no better than a rock. I do lock up a few of my more valuable guns but I keep a loaded automatic in in the night-stand, a loaded 20ga autoloader in the hall closet, and my .45 in the basement. That being said I have no kiddies at home and even if I did I feel that education and familiarity are the key not locks. Take away the "forbiden fruit" mystique and familiarize and educate. As close as you will get to safety.
Matt might chime in as I know he has youngins
Dave we had it drumed and beatin in to our pointd little heads: MUZZLE AWARENESS


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## Shortround6 (Aug 14, 2013)

A friend ( ex USAMTU member and his family owned the largest commercial range on the east coast) once told me that if you fool around with guns long enough you *will* have an accidental discharge. The difference between a humbling story and a tragedy 
is, as you say, MUZZLE AWARENESS. 


With your lack of little ones about your method of "storage" may be quite safe and depending on response time of your local police it may be safer for you and yours than having them all under lock and key should you need them. Your situation is not for me to judge. Just pointing out that I have never heard of a gun going off "all by itself " without some form of "assistance".


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## Matt308 (Aug 14, 2013)

When my boys were very young, my home defense guns were kept in quick access safes (2-push 5 button cipher lock). Push, push, open, bang. Personally, I wasn't worried about my boys actually getting ahold of my guns, but rather some of their young buddies whom I didn't know well enough to make such a judgement of responsibility. Now that they are older, I have my Glock sitting next to my bed. But still keep my wifes Ruger SP101 in a quick access safe. I'm more afraid now that some of their friends might grab their katana or wakizashi, start playing samurai and lop off an arm or leg. You could shave with my oldest boy's katana.


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## Matt308 (Aug 14, 2013)

Shortround6 said:


> A friend ( ex USAMTU member and his family owned the largest commercial range on the east coast) once told me that if you fool around with guns long enough you *will* have an accidental discharge. The difference between a humbling story and a tragedy
> is, as you say, MUZZLE AWARENESS.



I completely agree with your friend and I'm man enough to admit that I have done it. Years ago, I was in a hurry to clean my Browning Buckmark .22LR after an extensive camping trip. I was tired, wanted to put all the camping **** away and clean up my gun so I could rest up for work on Monday. Yanked the magazine out and began the take down process. First step is to check for empty chamber. Confirm empty. Pull trigger to begin disassembly process. Guess which one I failed to accomplish. Luckily, I am religious about keeping my muzzle in a safe direction. Next thing I know, my ears are ringing. ALWAYS KEEP YOUR MUZZLE POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION. EVEN WHEN YOU HAVE CHECKED, DOUBLE CHECKED AND TRIPLE CHECKED THAT THE CHAMBER IS EMPTY.

I have taught my boys to exaggerate all safety when handling firearms. Exaggerate to the point of being silly about it. And if others don't treat firearms as you would while in their presence, LEAVE IMMEDIATELY.

I was a young boy about 10. We were shooting a High Standard .22LR jam-o-matic. It would often hangfire. My young friend, his dad (then owner of said gun), my dad and I were taking turns. Well his son was halfway thru a magazine and "click". First thing he did was look down the barrel. His dad lunged, shoved the gun out of his face and "BANG". Lucky young man. And I was lucky not to have witnessed him blow his brains out right in front of me. His dad immediately ended the shooting session and we went home in silence.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 14, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> ...First thing he did was look down the barrel. His dad lunged, shoved the gun out of his face and "BANG"...


God Almighty...

I honestly cringed when I read that.


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## Matt308 (Aug 14, 2013)

...and you can understand why I have never forgotten it.


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## bobbysocks (Aug 14, 2013)

my bosses were talking about something today i havent had trhe chance to attempt to find. supposedly a concealed weapons instructor was giving a class to certify applicants for ccw permits. he was demonstrating the quick draw method and ended up shooting a student in the arm..... 

DAMN it is true......( insert face palm smiley here) ....

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/08/13/terry_dunlap_gun_safety_instructor_accident.html


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## Torch (Aug 15, 2013)

Yeesh had a custom remie 700 in a .300win mag that the final touch was putting a Ti Tubbs firing pin into the bolt,what a pain that was with out the right tools,after struggling i finally managed to get it together and went downstairs to try,looked into the chamber ,looks good,slam the bolt,muzzle away ,pulled the trigger and holy crappers it goes off. What I forgot or didn't see was that the previous hunting season I was using Speer Nitrex "nickle" brass rounds,when I looked down into the mag area(SS gun) I just plain missed it. well I look up and the basement is full of plaster dust,smoke,alarms going off and I see just a .30 sized hole in the wall,I say meh I can fix that,then run upstairs and check on the dogs,they are ok,run outside to see if the round went thru the house while waving to a neighbor that's wondering what the hell was that. No holes,crap the wife will be home in less than an hour. Run back downstairs,open all windows,get the vac out,then notice crap the bullit went into the adjacent bathroom just above one of those big mirrors(started to shrapnel),look into the next bed room and the ceiling was peppered with holes(i was kneeling when the rnd went off),yipes. Get the spackle out,get the paint out,finish cleaning about 15 mins before the wife walked in. She never knew what happened until her sister blabbed it to her 8 years later. I kept the spent shell and it sits above my work bench. Wrote "one dumb [email protected]@@" on it as a reminder. Good thing we lived in the hills at the time,nobody really noticed. The whole thing rocked my world.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 15, 2013)

Holy smokes, man...that was a close call...too bad you were ratted out, though! 

Several years, I was helping an officer with a gunlock in his new patrol car and the local setup here is a shotgun/rifle combo between the seats. I had to adjust the rifle lock (Mini14) and when I was done, I told him to "give 'er a try" and the officer (young guy, new to the force) popped the release and grabbed the barrel of the shotgun and pulled it towards him, aiming the barrel directly at his head. I yelled "woa! Hold up there!" And proceeded to tell him that when you hit the release, grasp the receiver and push the shotgun away while lifting. This swings the barrel to the passenger side, allowing the weapon to come out butt-first. He looked a little indignant that I was chewing on his azz a little and stuck it back in the mount while telling me that "he knew what he was doing". Now bear in mind that for the shotgun lock to close, the action has to be closed on the 870, meaning it could certainly be a hazard to the officer or bystander in the event of a discharge.

Anyway, as he was placing it back into the mount, it went off. To this day, I have no idea how he managed that, but there was a deafening blast, sh!t flying everywhere and I dropped like a rock. When the smoke cleared, there was headliner dangling, a jagged hole in the roof of the Crown Vic and one very dead lightbar. Fortunately, the officer wasn't injured (except for his dignity) and I caught just a little plastic debris (lightbar lens) in the side of the head.

As the entire shop poured out in the service bay to see what happened, he turned to look at me with wide eyes and said "but it shouldn't have done that". 

I looked at him (mad as hell) and said "hell yes it should, that's what they're designed to do!".

Fortunately, he survived that lesson, but his fellow officers still rib him about it to this day.

The car was eventually fixed, too...


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## Matt308 (Aug 15, 2013)

Torch said:


> Yeesh had a custom remie 700 in a .300win mag .



 You surely are deaf right? I'm suprised that didn't blow out the windows. I once saw an ad that stated For Sale, .300Win mag. Almost NIB. Includes box of 19 cartridges.

It's amazing how many of these tales there are out there. And before anybody jumps to conclusions, you can say the same thing about a table saw. Every knows somebody who has gone a round and lost to Mr. Table Saw.


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## Torch (Aug 15, 2013)

No not deaf,just perfected the art of quick cleaning spackling and painting. It's funny,when i'm at the range I always wear eye/ear protection but when hunting I'm concentrating so much on the animal I hear very little of the shot when it goes off. As for the basement whoops I think the adrenalin kicked in so fast I hardly noticed it, some ringing but that went away after about 20mins.Lucky in more ways than one.


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## Torch (Aug 15, 2013)

PS: that Remmie was nice,Douglas barrel,Timney trigger,McMillan stock,Ti firing pin,bedded,IOR Valdada scope. Shot nice groups but alas humping that thing between 8k and 11k feet in altitude got to me. Ended up with .300wsm and .270wsm rifles.


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## Matt308 (Aug 15, 2013)

Torch said:


> No not deaf,just perfected the art of quick cleaning spackling and painting. It's funny,when i'm at the range I always wear eye/ear protection but when hunting I'm concentrating so much on the animal I hear very little of the shot when it goes off. As for the basement whoops I think the adrenalin kicked in so fast I hardly noticed it, some ringing but that went away after about 20mins.Lucky in more ways than one.



Interesting. I have heard the very same thing from police officers after an indoor shooting incident.


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## mikewint (Aug 15, 2013)

You know 4 years in Vietnam with every weapon known to man going off at some point I/we never wore any type of hearing protector/plugs. Now one shot and my ears ring and I'm looking for the ear muffs


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## javlin (Aug 23, 2013)

This really is an M1 Garand 

International Harvester M1 Garand .30-06 : Semi Auto Rifles at GunBroker.com


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## Matt308 (Aug 23, 2013)

Blaspheme. But I recognize how many 1903s, K98s and Enfields were sportorized. But will refrain from giving my opinion.


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## Torch (Aug 23, 2013)

Wow,and from the mouth of Monty Python "And now for something completely different"....Not sure i'm liking it so much


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## javlin (Aug 23, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> Blaspheme. But I recognize how many 1903s, K98s and Enfields were sportorized. But will refrain from giving my opinion.


 


Torch said:


> Wow,and from the mouth of Monty Python "And now for something completely different"....Not sure i'm liking it so much



I knew this would not take long  Yea she is butt ugly,I might go that road absolutly no cross hatching, plain jane stock and still some type of upper handguard and that is only a maybe.The gun shoots solid look like 1"MOA @75yds maybe nothing fantastic for most M1 Garand do that well @100yds easy.I have seen a fella drop 8rds in a straight line each touching each other(2.4"-2.5" line) from 100yds bench.


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## Shortround6 (Aug 24, 2013)

here's a few for you.


Sporterized? 










Short range gun;






long range gun;


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## Torch (Aug 24, 2013)

What are those puppies? interesting sights.


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## Matt308 (Aug 24, 2013)

Give us some specs with that gun porn will ya!?


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## Shortround6 (Aug 24, 2013)

Top one I think I take guesses on 

Middle one is a Remington 700 Action, Hart barrel, McMillan stock. 

Bottom is An RPA 2000 action, Schneider barrel, Stock is custom. 

Rear sights from top to bottom are Central, Gates, and Warner. 

Top and bottom are .308.


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## Matt308 (Aug 24, 2013)

Top is a bastardized Enfield. Trigger is throwing me. 1917 Enfield?


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## Shortround6 (Aug 24, 2013)

Might be a Timney trigger, it is after market. And you are right about the action there isn't much left except the receiver and bolt. The firing pin has been "speed locked", part of the sear ground away to reduce firing pin travel, Safety removed and the hole plugged and welded ( no magazine). The lower part of receiver ground down to fit in the one piece stock. Barrel is a hammer forged Enfield barrel. The gun shoots well enough to give lie to all the stories you may have heard about rear locking lugs. Perhaps not as good as the RPA 2000 but the Enfield _will_ shoot under 1 minute of angle. Due to weight and length of stock it doesn't hold as well as the RPA ( a little more bounce) but any shot that is off center you can call of center as the shot breaks. 
Due the weight and length of stock I have used it for 4 position shooting ( something I wouldn't try with the RPA) and routinely have gotten over 20 X's out 40 rounds fired ( 10 in each of prone, sitting, kneeling and standing) at 200yds on the standard SR target.


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## Matt308 (Aug 24, 2013)

My presbyoptic eyes make that a gun MUCH beyond my capabilities. They all look lovely, however. I would be willing to take any of those ladies home.


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## Shortround6 (Aug 24, 2013)

Part of the advantage of the fancy sights. The rear sights are fitted with adjustable apertures much like a camera lens and by twisting the adjustment ring you can change the opening. Like a camera lens a small opening gives better depth of field focus to _help_ get both the front sight and target either in focus or close at the same time. Adjustment allows for different lighting on different days. The bottom rifle has a front sight that does the same, Twist the adjustment ring and the front aperture changes size (so much easier than trying to juggle small inserts). When I try to use a post front sight my groups (extreme spread) are about 3 times higher than they are wide. 

Last time I used an M-16/AR-15 I saw _two_ superimposed front sights side by side (over lapping). Another reason for 28-30 in barrels, gets the front sight further away. And then some of us older shooters use "bloop tubes" to move the sight even further away. 

A really good set of sights with the bells and whistles cost more than most high quality scopes. 

The Middle gun will take a scope and the one I use on it is an old Pentax 8.5-32 X but usually dialed down to 20 X give or take depending on the day, High magnification and mirage don't mix well.


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## Matt308 (Aug 24, 2013)

Fun stuff man. Nice posts.


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## Torch (Aug 24, 2013)

Thanks for the info,very interesting.


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## Matt308 (Aug 25, 2013)

More cleaning out my Dad's stuff. Cleaned up his work bench and put things in order in his took kit. Identified camping gear for my oldest boy. And found his Ruger Single Six .22LR pistol and his camping knives/belt. A melancholy moment. Fondly remember him instucting me on how to shoot a pistol and the safety associated with it. I was about 6yo when I first shot it. I still remember that smell and the feeling of power in my hands.


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## javlin (Aug 25, 2013)

Thanks Shortround for the info.I have had to Mini-14's and the first one being the better rifle harmonics wise if you know what I mean.It had a different aftermarket sight instaed of that POS Ruger puts on there.The sight was mas made in an L to accept a scope on top if one wanted to but the short side of the L had an adjustable peep sight.I was never able to track down another assembly such as that for my second Mini and I never felt proficient with the rifle thus cut it loose also(traded 1st one for part of my M1a).


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## Torch (Aug 26, 2013)

i feel for you Matt,so many personal moments come to life when you get a piece of family history in your hands, when I take out my Grandpa's 16g SxS rabbit hunting I swear i can feel him be with me.


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## bobbysocks (Aug 26, 2013)

i have an eastern arms 22 bolt action that was my dad's. iirc eastern arms was made for sears but savage/stevens. i lugged that thing all over the mountains as a kid. think i may have to take it up to camp this labor day and plink a little...just for old times sake.


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## Matt308 (Aug 26, 2013)

Now we're talking


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## mikewint (Aug 26, 2013)

Yea, now all you have to do is find .22 ammo. Have not been able to score even 50rds around here since June


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## Matt308 (Aug 26, 2013)

Dad had a suitcase full of .22LR.


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## mikewint (Aug 26, 2013)

Gun Broker dot com, Matt, you can probably make enough to retire


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## Matt308 (Aug 26, 2013)

God that is sad. WTF? Really I honestly want to know WTF is going on!?


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## Torch (Aug 26, 2013)

Well,picked up a box of Federal 325rds of .22lr at my LGS,then went to the spanking new Cabela's in Lonetree Co. and picked up a box of Winnies 555 rds for 28.00 for my brother in law. Both had .22lrs but only sold one box at a time. You know friggin hoarders would jump all over that stuff if there were no rules..


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 26, 2013)

Picked up another 100 rnds of .40 S&W.

My stockpile is slowly growing.


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## Shortround6 (Aug 27, 2013)

Ok, more gun porn;







Winchester Model 70 action, Hart Barrel, Custom stock. Warner Back sight. New Jewell Trigger. Gun was built back in the early 90s and I shot out one barrel, Second shots just as good. Caliber is 6.5X 308. or .260 Remington except the .260 wasn't a factory cartridge when the gun was built. 






.223 on the left followed buy 6.5mm Rem BR. The Round the grey gun in the previous set of photos is chambered for. Also source for my user name, some sites will not accept the ( . ) in the user name. Next is the 6.5 X 308 (that is what is says on the barrels . followed by a standard .308. Bullet in the 6.5 Rem BR is black because it is molly coated. 






When I was 10 years old my older brother and I asked my father for a BB gun for Christmas. He told us "A BB gun isn't accurate enough to be worth spending money on". Christmas came and there was a long box under the tree. It held a Winchester model 69 much like this one with target sights front and back and metal rail in fore-end to move the hand stop back and forth several inches and a target sling. 






Fuzzy picture of the front sight. The Human eye works a lot better trying to make concentric circles than trying to gauge how much of a front blade is sticking into the round bullseye or how big a band of white you have (the apple on a stick doesn't really work that well) 






One For the Pistolero's. A .22LR Smith 41 with short barrel, custom grips and a ONE power scope. no magnification but the crosshairs and the target are in focus at the same time


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## Matt308 (Aug 27, 2013)




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## mikewint (Aug 27, 2013)

Shortround, really nice guns. Never tried any sights on a pistol have always used lasers. With only my left eye and me a righty (of course) even telescopic are tough for me to use


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## Torch (Aug 27, 2013)

Very nice....


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## bobbysocks (Aug 27, 2013)

mikewint said:


> Yea, now all you have to do is find .22 ammo. Have not been able to score even 50rds around here since June



that isnt a problem. i have several thousand rounds of 22 lr. even have ~200 rds of sub-sonic in case i want to plink at midnight and not wake up the neighbor....lol


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## Matt308 (Aug 27, 2013)

Wish you were my neighbor. You have a personal invitation.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 28, 2013)

I have found that .22 shorts are remarkably quiet in my Revelation bolt-action rifle...


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## Matt308 (Aug 28, 2013)

Heck even .22LR is just a crack in my Ruger 10/22. Really don't even need earplugs. Never shot shorts or CBs. My Dad's Benjiman .177 pellet rifle is almost as loud as a .22LR. In fact it is abnormally loud. I've always been good about protecting my hearing with both plugs and muffs. But long ago they called a range halt and I packed my stuff up into my truck. Thought I would beat them into the cab before it went hot. No muffs no plugs and standing about 25ft from the range line and someone lit off a .223. Holycrap that hurt. Bet Mike gets a laugh outta that, but I can't imagine being in a firefight with small arms and explosives going off all around me. With no adrenaline to keep me going, I literally think I would have stuck my fingers in my ears and curled up in a ball.


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## bobbysocks (Aug 28, 2013)

in the old days the Rx for a cheap, legal, homemade suppressor was a 2 liter bottle taped to the end of the gun. looked stupid and only worked for the first 1 or 2 rounds....and needless to say accuracy went down the drain. sub sonic ammo keeps the bullit from breaking the sound barrier so you dont get that sonic crack. when i fire regular 22Lr from my suppressed Ar-7 ( yes it is 100% legal....with papers and everything )....all you hear is the bolt snapping back and forth and the sonic crack down range. if i fire 22 shorts or ss 22...you hear the bolt clack...and the bullit hit the tin can but nothing else. its actually quieter than my 2 pellet rifles! one night i was in the position that i had to shoot a possum. dispatched the critter without waking any of my neighbors. probably could have done the same thing with 22 shorts and a 2 liter bottle....might have to try that this weekend too...lol


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## Shortround6 (Aug 28, 2013)

The ear sort of shuts down after a few loud bangs, the repeated ones don't seem as loud (but then _nothing_ seems quite as loud for quite while after, sometimes forever). 

It is strange but I will fire standard velocity .22LR from my 26-28in target barrels without ear protection at times. I WILL NOT fire the same ammo from 16-18 barrels let alone pistols without ear protection and I wear ear protection in the pits from the crack of the bullets going overhead.

Even a tube 6-10 in long with an inside dia of 7/8-1in and NO baffles or front end will significantly alter the sound of a .22lr.


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## bobbysocks (Aug 28, 2013)

we never wore hearing or eye protection when i was a kid in the 60s and early 70s. i never wore them until around the early 80s.


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## mikewint (Aug 28, 2013)

Matt, you know I posted that a while back. Looking back we never wore any type of ear protection and I really don't remember being in any kind of pain fromthe noise. The concussions from explosives were the worst, like being hit with a giants fist and big old Phantoms coming in 20 feet off the deck. It was nothing you could ever prepare for I guess it was the adrenalin and youth. Now I'm old and more fragile and like you put on ear muffs even to shoot the .22LR and that .22WMR is like a cannon.
It was many years before I could go to a 4th of July fireworks show


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## Matt308 (Aug 28, 2013)

I can't imagine, Mike.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 28, 2013)

I have also seen a Fram PH-8A oil filter (modified, of course) perform remarkable well for quiting down the discharge of a rifle...

As afr as hearing goes, I'll wear hearing protection anytime I get near the firing line. Ears have been ringing for years, don't want to lose what hearing I have left :/


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## Torch (Aug 28, 2013)

Yeah i've seen the oil filter adapter also,interesting...


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## bobbysocks (Aug 28, 2013)

i just watched the u tube video on this....$75usd + the $200 tax stamp....not bad for a supressor at all. after the first round punches a hole in the bottom of the filter it ought to be fine. once again yankee ingenuity triumphs....


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haiqFcIXTqs_


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## vikingBerserker (Aug 28, 2013)

Hunting I never wore protection, but I always did when shooting skeet or trap.


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## Matt308 (Aug 29, 2013)

For that amount of money I'd rather get a manufactured suppressor.


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## Torch (Aug 29, 2013)

Dont know how many rounds you can put thru a suppressor these days,but as long as you have the adapter oil filters are rather cheap to go thru


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## GrauGeist (Aug 29, 2013)

The one thing that I'm not impressed with, is creating an exit hole by "shooting" it out. It seems to me that as the bullet impacts the end of the oil filter, it distorts as it strikes the sheet metal, making an innacurate aperature. The next round runs the risk of grazing or contacting the sheet metal, causing that round to go off target. That's two rounds expended so far, and if the whole idea is to quietly shoot something, especially at range, you run the risk of being off center and have quite possibly blown two attempts.


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## Matt308 (Aug 29, 2013)

Depending on the suppressor design, the metal baffles should last virtually forever. You only have to periodically clean it. Now those that use wipes likely degrade. Have no idea whether you can replace the wipes and the associated cost.


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## mikewint (Aug 29, 2013)

The oil filter IS the suppressor and as such has a serial number on it. Filter #2 is not serialized and as such would be illegal.
There has been quite a debate going on about this and its legality. Additionally a threaded barrel is required for anything over .22
See Solvent trap adaptor


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## Matt308 (Sep 7, 2013)

Realized my Dad's Ruger Single Six .22LR has a missing cylinder release spring missing. Requires a special tool to remove the nut. Gonna try to use some pliers and a piece of leather to not mar it up, but so far can't get it off. Spring is only $4.95 +S&H at GunParts. Gotta find a local gunsmith that does a decent hot blueing job. Either my dad made a cold blue attempt or somebody else, as the gun finish looks like **** and is flaking off with the scrape of a finger nail.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 5, 2013)

With the craziness of this last summer, I've had alot of time to sit around and do nothing. In that period of time, I realized that one of the things I've been wanting to do, is get a Ruger GP100. I know it sounds funny that I would just "remember" something like that, but life is what it is, and more pressing things have always taken my attention (and money).

Anyway, I checked into the availability of 'em and found they're close to impossible to find these days. I put in a special order at the local gunshop last month, and lo and behold, they called the other day and said it was in!

I'll be picking it up next Saturday (10 day waiting period) and it'll be a little while before I can get it to the range and run a few rounds through it, since my carcass is still in rough shape.

It's the 4" brushed stainless finish in a .357 caliber. I'll post a few pics next weekend


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## Matt308 (Oct 5, 2013)

Ruger. GP100. .357Mag. Stainless.

What is not to like. She's built like a ****-brickhouse and beautiful to boot.

Gun porn pics please!


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## GrauGeist (Oct 6, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> Ruger. GP100. .357Mag. Stainless.
> 
> What is not to like. She's built like a ****-brickhouse and beautiful to boot.


Agreed 110% on all counts



Matt308 said:


> Gun porn pics please!


Hang in there...less than 7 days to go! (Gonna be a long 7 days)


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## mikewint (Oct 6, 2013)

Very nice, .357 Mag is a great round and the .38 special also works for target
From Blue Streak, Martin Lawrence "Gangsta" style 
and from Lake Placid, Sherif Keogh's side arm


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## Matt308 (Oct 6, 2013)

Gangsta style.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 6, 2013)

Never liked that "fiss fulla nine" firing position. It's sloppy, stupid and ensures a well trained oponent will take them down.


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## Torch (Oct 7, 2013)

GP100 is a solid gun,might not be as refined as a S&W 686 out of the box but with a little work they will shoot great and last a loooong time.


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## mikewint (Oct 7, 2013)

Never understood how you were supposed to actually hit anything that way but then when the gun is in your nose aiming not required


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## Soldier (Oct 7, 2013)

I have a Replica 1858 New Army Revolver (cap and ball), A Taurus 709 slip, Remington 870 shotgun (Home defense barrel and long barrel). Weatherby .308 vanguard rifle with LeupoldII scope, My grandfathers 10 guage shotgun that he had in WWII. My next purchase will be a Hi- Point carbine (probably .40 cal)


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## mikewint (Oct 8, 2013)

Time to post pics!


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## GrauGeist (Oct 9, 2013)

Less than 72 hours til I bring that rascal home...it's kinda like being a kid waiting for Christmas morning!


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## mikewint (Oct 9, 2013)

10 day waiting period, wow, and I thought Ill-noise was bad with its 3-day wait. I'll take Arkansas any day. Pay and take


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## GrauGeist (Oct 9, 2013)

Well, California has had the 10 day thing for ages...personally, I've never had a problem with it. Some may find it inconvenient, though.


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## Matt308 (Oct 9, 2013)

Just swapped my 6in S&W 686+ tulip wood grip to my dad's (god rest his soul) 4in 686. Much better fit and look. Put the original Hogue rubber grip back my 6in. Life is back into equilibrium.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 12, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> Gun porn pics please!





mikewint said:


> Time to post pics!


And gunporn pix you shall have!

Picked it around lunchtime but had a few other things to do before setting up for a few pics...

Gotta say guys, she's a beauty no matter which way ya' look at it. When I first learned about Ruger releasing the GP100 years ago, I wanted one.

I suppose the new style grips are better than the rubber/rosewood style it first came out with, but the Hogue grips seem to fit/feel well enough.

Anyway, enough talking...here's the anticipated photos of the newest addition


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## Matt308 (Oct 12, 2013)

Nice. Similar grips to my 686+, but with backstrap covered and without the odd hump under the hammer. Yet I'm sure that allows a snug grip closer the bore line for less recoil flip.

Don't knock the Ruger rubber grips with plastic/wood panels. I have the rubber/black plastic panel grips on my SP101 and they are VERY nice for a sure hold. Not a fan of the rubber/wood panel grip looks, but they are surely just as functional.

Beauty gun, man. Cant go wrong with a GP100.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 12, 2013)

Thanks, it's something I've been wanting for about 25 years or so...life just had a way of keeping it on the back-burner.

As far as the grips go, I imagine the textured surface would allow for better control in situations where rain/sweat might make the original grips a bit squirrely with thier smooth surface.

That stainless finish sure is a winner, though...damn it looks mighty good sittin' there!


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## meatloaf109 (Oct 12, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> Gangsta style.


Idiots that shoot like that are O.K. with me. They can't hit the far side of a barn.
But it looks "cool" and "gangsta", so.. good for them.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 12, 2013)

In a way it is a good thing they shoot like dumbasses because it makes a competant opponent (police, homeowner, etc) knock them down quicker.

The downside is when these idiots are trying to "bust caps" into each other down in the hood, they more often hit innocent bystanders than each other.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 13, 2013)

mikewint said:


> 10 day waiting period, wow, and I thought Ill-noise was bad with its 3-day wait. I'll take Arkansas any day. Pay and take



Thats how Iowa is. I pay for and walk out with it. Funny thing is, I live 5 minutes from the Ill. border where the stricter laws are.


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## Matt308 (Oct 13, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> In a way it is a good thing they shoot like dumbasses because it makes a competant opponent (police, homeowner, etc) knock them down quicker.
> 
> The downside is when these idiots are trying to "bust caps" into each other down in the hood, they more often hit innocent bystanders than each other.



Just gave a loser Ahole in Seattle 28yrs for exactly that. He was trying to shoot another guy across the street and executed a father driving a mini-van. Blew his brains out right in front of his wife and children while waiting at a stop light downtown. Oh and guess what? Gang member with a rap sheet as long as his arm. When will be ever learn.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 13, 2013)

They gave the assclown 28 years for that...and this is why we have a problem. They should have given him 24 hours to get his affairs in order before they hung him for 1st degree murder.

If they actually got serious about prosecution for serious offenses, the law-breakers would think twice before doing idiotic acts...

Instead, they get sent away to the "house" where they have 3 squares, a gym, internet access, cable tv and all the sex they want and all the kiddies in the neighborhood glorify them as some sort of dieties.


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## Matt308 (Oct 13, 2013)

...yeah.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 14, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> Just gave a loser Ahole in Seattle 28yrs for exactly that. He was trying to shoot another guy across the street and executed a father driving a mini-van. Blew his brains out right in front of his wife and children while waiting at a stop light downtown. Oh and guess what? Gang member with a rap sheet as long as his arm. When will be ever learn.



Round up all gang members, put them in a walled arena, and let them kill each other off. They are worthless scum who contribute nothing to society.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 14, 2013)

Better idea...drop those gangsta douchebags into the middle-east hotspots and let them see what real hate is all about.

Looking all 'badass", posing and waving a 9mm will last about 30 seconds there...


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 14, 2013)

Nice!


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## mikewint (Oct 14, 2013)

Now, Now, Gentle-men, we are a kinder, gentler society. The poor lad probably had a deprived upbringing


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## Torch (Oct 14, 2013)

oy vey!!!!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 14, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> Better idea...drop those gangsta douchebags into the middle-east hotspots and let them see what real hate is all about.
> 
> Looking all 'badass", posing and waving a 9mm will last about 30 seconds there...



I wouldn't wish these scum upon my enemies...


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## bobbysocks (Oct 15, 2013)

its all about the noise and being cool....there was a shoot out in toledo ohio years back. count the number of rounds shot...look at the close quarters....and NO ONE was hit. gangsta style...


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_-OIYCl86M_


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## Matt308 (Oct 15, 2013)

Notice how all the vermin scatter...


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## GrauGeist (Oct 15, 2013)

An autoloader with 2 3/4" high-brass #6 would have decided that melee in short fashion...


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## bobbysocks (Oct 15, 2013)

i dont think they would have hit anything with that either!


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## GrauGeist (Oct 15, 2013)

bobbysocks said:


> i dont think they would have hit anything with that either!


If I unlimbered the autoloader in there, it would have covered just about every square inch of wall in there...

My Autoloader is a Remington version of the Belgian Browning squareback, military issue and has a delightful rate of fire...


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## mikewint (Oct 15, 2013)

Carrying a hand gun and actually "hitting" something are three different things, THEN factor in movement and the target shooting back and all bets are off.
In Vietnam, even with training, the average was in the neighborhood of 2000 - 3000 rounds for every KIA.
While I keep the Kel-Tec in the nightstand the 20ga Mosberg autoloader iis handy in the closet using 3in #6 shot.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 15, 2013)

mikewint said:


> ...the 20ga Mosberg autoloader iis handy in the closet using 3in #6 shot.


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## Torch (Oct 16, 2013)

Basically my FNH FNX .45 in my night table will allow me to get to my Mossberg 930SPX with 7rds of buckshot and a side saddle with 6 more rds.


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## bobbysocks (Oct 16, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> If I unlimbered the autoloader in there, it would have covered just about every square inch of wall in there...
> 
> My Autoloader is a Remington version of the Belgian Browning squareback, military issue and has a delightful rate of fire...



i didnt say you....i dont doubt you...or probably anyone here in this thread would have hit their target(s). we look at guns as something more than a status symbol....and enjoy shooting and practice at it. i would be willing to bet, with the exception of that shoot out, that none of those jabroonies had ever fired more than 20 rounds in their life...much less had any training except for maybe playing grand thieft auto on the game console.


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## Matt308 (Oct 16, 2013)

I've never shot at someone and hope like hell that I never have too. But I won't make a statement that I can unequivocally hit a human target during a shootout. I'm not a big hunter by any stretch of the imagination, but have hunted everything from small birds to small game. Adrenalin is a wonderful thing and unless you practice ALOT (and I don't mean once a week or twice a month), target shooting is NOT the same. You can teach muscle reaction, but shooting another live animal (let alone another human shooting back at you) is indescribable. I cannot imagine the maginitude that ratchets up when shooting at another human, so I'll defer to those who have done it.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 16, 2013)

bobbysocks said:


> i didnt say you....i dont doubt you...or probably anyone here in this thread would have hit their target(s). we look at guns as something more than a status symbol....and enjoy shooting and practice at it. i would be willing to bet, with the exception of that shoot out, that none of those jabroonies had ever fired more than 20 rounds in their life...much less had any training except for maybe playing grand thieft auto on the game console.


Not to worry, the reply was more in keeping with the idea that these idiots were yelling and waving thier pistols around like a bunch of idiots and fortunatly did NOT have a shotgun. A short barrel shotgun would certainly cast a broad pattern and do terrible damage at close range.

My comment was more along the lines of me clearing the room of dumbasses in about 3 rounds with the aforementioned autoloader.

In a situation like that, a person will have tremendous amounts of adrenalin coupled with the "flight or fight" reflex, so everything is going to be perceived in a chaotic way. That video pretty much sums up what happens in a sitaution where there's no training, no control and a heartrate of a hummingbird pumping (like a jackhammer) all that adrenalin.


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## Matt308 (Oct 16, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> In a situation like that, a person will have tremendous amounts of adrenalin coupled with the "flight or fight" reflex, so everything is going to be perceived in a chaotic way. That video pretty much sums up what happens in a sitaution where there's no training, no control and a heartrate of a hummingbird pumping (like a jackhammer) all that adrenalin.



Apparently (according to that video) unless you are in a bar, drunk, and stoopid would a person repeatedly go back in for another shot. If I made it out with gunfire going off all around me and I still had my health, I would be nothing but azzhole and elbows running down the street.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 16, 2013)




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## mikewint (Oct 16, 2013)

They try to prepare you as much as possible with all kinds of "live fire" drills. The rounds are real and so are the explosions but you know that they are not really aimed at you and you are not going to die but you do develop certain reflexes which are helpful. Often in a platoon less than 50% actually return fire and in many cases it is less.
As best I can explain something inside snaps and you decide that it is a me or him situation and I want to go home. The men you are shooting at become non-men, just objects. One becomes less than sane. It happens gradually and one ceases to think about it, as chaos become normalcy.
I posted this before but my first "shoot-out": We were walking along a trail in what was suppose to be a rear secure area so we were just diddly-boping along enjoying the scenery (dumbasses we were). Suddenly around a curve in the trail appeared a VC patrol. We all froze and just looked at one another for what seemed like a long time. Finally someone had the wit to fire a round and in a second all h*ll broke loose and we all turned and ran in the opposite diretion shooting over our shoulders. Think I ran for 5 km before I stopped for clean pants


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## Torch (Oct 17, 2013)




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## Bucksnort101 (Oct 17, 2013)

Now that's funny, I don't care who you are.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 17, 2013)

Bucksnort101 said:


> Now that's funny, I don't care who you are.


Agreed! 

Sad truth of the matter is first, the sights. No one uses them. Secondly, it advertises a holster. "Aint nobody gots time for dat"...unless you consider a jacket pocket or waist-band a holster...

And last of all...it's advertising all of this as "buyable" products. They rarely buy anything. Well, ok, perhaps they "buy" some of thier stuff, but's already stolen and they're paying with money that got from the local pawnshop for the big-screen they scored in a local burglery...


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## Matt308 (Oct 17, 2013)




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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 17, 2013)

That is hilarious!


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## mikewint (Oct 17, 2013)

you know, I have Trijcon night sights on the XDm. Wonder if I couldremove them and mount them on the right side of the slide?? Super glue maybe???


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## Matt308 (Oct 19, 2013)

Do it right, Mike. Machine in a dove tail so you can adjust for windage.


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## mikewint (Oct 19, 2013)

Alas, no lathe. I'll just adjust for average wind and directon. You're not REALLY suppose to HIT anything/body are you (except by chance, of course)??


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## Matt308 (Oct 19, 2013)

spray and pray


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## mikewint (Oct 19, 2013)

Been there done that!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 20, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> spray and pray



That is what she said...


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## vikingBerserker (Oct 20, 2013)




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## Matt308 (Oct 20, 2013)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> That is what she said...



Yeah, those organic insecticides don't work worth a ****... oh... right.


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## bobbysocks (Oct 21, 2013)

i did see a 1911 that was modified to full auto. it has a "T" handle coming off in the vicinity of the rear site (coming off of the frame not the slide ). basically it was so you could hold the gun like a jack hammer and to fire it you would be holding it "gangtsa" style. it did have the sites on the side of the slide. I thought it was a jogn dillinger design but i just tired to look up to post a pic and i cant see it in the NFA collection of his guns at the FBI. he was an excellent gun smith and made a few full auto 1911s in his time...but the one i was thinking of isnt one of them i guess.


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## Torch (Oct 22, 2013)

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F3aH-m-znE_


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## Torch (Oct 22, 2013)

This looks cool too!
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNoPTrA4ukE_


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## mikewint (Oct 22, 2013)

1911 - Full auto? didn't seem very fast, more like he was just pulling the trigger rapidly. The was a U-tube post on a Bump-fire 1911 that shot the same rate but he hooked his thumb in his belt loop and thus shot from the waist. Full-auto .22 with all the Fed red tape and tax hardly seems worth it but does look like fun.
For about $300 you can still get the Slide-Fire stock for the M-16, very close to real full auto and no tax BS from the Fed but with .223 at $0.50 to $1per round expensive shooting


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## Torch (Oct 22, 2013)

Hickcock45(YouTube name) has a pretty good reputation when it comes to shooting,has a ton of videos out at his private range shooting just about everything and gives a down to earth opinion..I would hate to be the one loading that .22lr "belt" thou..


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## bobbysocks (Oct 22, 2013)

mikewint said:


> 1911 - Full auto? didn't seem very fast, more like he was just pulling the trigger rapidly. ...



some are set up that way...why i have no clue. i was at a machinegun shoot many years ago. a guythere had a mauser broomhandle that was select fire...it shot faster in semi than it did in FULL. was somewhat amusing....

firing that 22 full auto like that is a good way to burn ( or lead ) up a barrel.


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## Torch (Oct 22, 2013)

Your right, saw a cable show,forgot the name and they compared the Broomhandle to the Beretta 92fs both full auto versions and it was amazing how faster the 92 cycled,on the other hand shot placement was a tad better with the broomhandle(stock or slower rate of fire)


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## javlin (Oct 22, 2013)

The only thing you have with that 22lr MG is shot placement.If your opponnet is with 150yds wether you hit him with 1 .308 150g in CoM or the 22lr 10 times+ @30g (300g) I think the bleed out from the mg would be much worse.


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## muscogeemike (Oct 23, 2013)

GrauGeist said:


> Better idea...drop those gangsta douchebags into the middle-east hotspots and let them see what real hate is all about.
> 
> Looking all 'badass", posing and waving a 9mm will last about 30 seconds there...



Remember those stupid movies about sending the Hell's Angels to VN!


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## yulzari (Nov 5, 2013)

Bought an Enfield Snider barrel/shoe which was described as smooth bored. Gave it a clean today and it has a full set of nice as new 147 year old rifling hidden under the muck in the barrel. It can now replace the 20 bore smooth bore version in my stock. Now to make a mould for the bullets. SWMBO will probably now want me to sit the Chasse exam to have her supplied with deer and boar.


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## oldcrowcv63 (Nov 13, 2013)

muscogeemike said:


> Remember those stupid movies about sending the Hell's Angels to VN!



Or the ones where Viet vets come home and take on the rogue bikers? There was a whole generation of biker vs vet movies culminating in the really awful spoof: '_*Surf Nazi's Must Die*_!' which had nothing to do with vets OR bikers as far as I can tell….But did have one bad a**, grenade-packing grandma .

Is that meatloaf109 riding that surfboard. I want his autograph!!

Reactions: Bacon Bacon:
1 | Like List reactions


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## Matt308 (Dec 13, 2013)

Here's one for you guys...

Went to the mountains with my wife and boy and shot a bit. I put about 100rds of store bought (not reloads) .38spl and .357mag through my S&W Model 66-4. As usual, I saved my brass to reload. I get back home and sorted them only to discover that out of the box of 50 .38spl, I had about 7-8 split cases... right in the middle lengthwise. Primers are not bulged.

Now this is the first time I have shot this gun (was my dad's until he passed) and it was given to him used. The gun is in mint condition and looks to either have been shot VERY little or not at all (a clue perhaps?).

I'm thinking that either:

1) Overly hot batch of .38spl (didn't feel like it) and over pressure split case (but not bulge the primer caps?)

2) I had a bad batch of .38spl with brass walls of the case too thin

3) I have a cylinder out of spec (wish I had paid attention as I unloaded to confirm this and I had an odd number of rounds to just do the math for logical deduction)

4) Combination of the above

Thoughts?


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## muscogeemike (Dec 13, 2013)

Matt308 I don't know enough to be of any help to you but talking of .38 spl and .357 mag - does anyone know of a simi-auto carbine or rifle which fire these rounds?
I know of lever and bolt action models but I'm interested in a simi-auto.


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## Matt308 (Dec 13, 2013)

With rimmed cases, you are stuck my friend. There used to be some semi-autos that were based upon the Ruger 10/22 (I only recall .44mag), but I must guess that lack of availability must mean problems.

If you want .357mag performance, get an M1 Carbine. If you want 30-30 performance get an SKS/AK. Otherwise, you are stuck with Hipoint or Beretta.


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## muscogeemike (Dec 13, 2013)

Thanks anyway.


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## Matt308 (Dec 13, 2013)

Its not a loss! You can get carbine length rifles that use popular mags (glock, baretta, ruger, etc), but your caliber choices will be pistol cartidges (e.g., 9mm, .40cal, .45ACP, etc) I have read nothing but good on the the Hipoint carbines. And they are dirt cheap.


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## meatloaf109 (Dec 13, 2013)

oldcrowcv63 said:


> Or the ones where Viet vets come home and take on the rogue bikers? There was a whole generation of biker vs vet movies culminating in the really awful spoof: '_*Surf Nazi's Must Die*_!' which had nothing to do with vets OR bikers as far as I can tell….But did have one bad a**, grenade-packing grandma .
> 
> Is that meatloaf109 riding that surfboard. I want his autograph!!



My autograph is available.
Send money.
The more money the better the autograph.

Reactions: Bacon Bacon:
1 | Like Like:
1 | Like List reactions


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## Torch (Dec 14, 2013)

split cases could be too many reloads on the brass, or too hot of a load.


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## Shortround6 (Dec 14, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> Here's one for you guys...
> 
> Went to the mountains with my wife and boy and shot a bit. I put about 100rds of store bought (not reloads) .38spl and .357mag through my S&W Model 66-4. As usual, I saved my brass to reload. I get back home and sorted them only to discover that out of the box of 50 .38spl, I had about 7-8 split cases... right in the middle lengthwise. Primers are not bulged.
> 
> ...



Could just be a bad lot of brass. If NONE of .357 cases split fired in the same gun something is out of wack with the ammo, not the gun. Or a combination of one over sized chamber and the .38 brass being thinner and/or less ductile than the .357 brass.


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## Matt308 (Dec 14, 2013)

Yeah, I need do the chamber test with some .38spl to see. With .357mag brass thicker in the walls, I don't think I can use that as a means of elimination. I looked again and I have 9 split cases. I recall that I had about 55-60 .38s shot and the math implies I might have an oversize chamber. I would find that hard to believe though. The split in the brass is located in the exact same spot and all are pretty much uniform in location with only the size of the crack differing in length. Coincidence? Man I hope so! I love this gun!

Guess I'll just have to shoot some more to find out.


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## mikewint (Dec 14, 2013)

Matt, not that I am any kind of expert but I'd probably start with a good gunsmith that can checkout the chamber/entire gun. If that checks out I'd try a totally different brand of ammo. I've been shooting .38 and .357 in the Python and never had any cases split.


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## Matt308 (Dec 14, 2013)

...yeah it is a bit worrisome.


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## mikewint (Dec 14, 2013)

When I bought the German Luger the gunsmith was the first stop. Exploding guns are not a good thing


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## Shortround6 (Dec 14, 2013)

Just an odd thought but is there a burr on the chamber mouth, or more likely on the extractor that could be scoring the brass and making a weak point as you chamber the round?

One chamber is harder to push the rounds in than the others? Or load and extract without firing and inspect cases.

For an over size chamber one would expect to see a bulge in the case above the web ( 0.150-.200" above the rim) or a greater bulge than the than the non-split cases. Can you mike the fired cases?


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## Matt308 (Dec 14, 2013)

No bulges whatsoever on any brass fired. Just a longitudinal crack.


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## GrauGeist (Dec 14, 2013)

Is it just me, or is there actually a discoloration at the leading and trailing edges of those cracks?

Discoloration not being from discharge, but more like an existing impurity in the brass. The condition of that brass is highly suspect, Matt...perhaps look at the intact casings to see if there's any deformities on the verge of cracking.

I'd suspect poor brass quality there and if confirmed, demand a refund.


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## Shortround6 (Dec 14, 2013)

The only thing I can think of left is to use a mic or dial caliper on the cases and compare them to the others or measure about just below the cannular (about in line with the splits) and measure the web diameter just forward of the rim and grove and see how much difference there is, there should be some. And the measure the same two points on the unsplit cases. Again there should be a few thousands more diameter than just in front of the rim (that is what re-sizing is for  but a big difference could mean the chamber is over size. A small or little difference could mean just bad brass. 

After that it is chamber casts or specialty tools.


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## Matt308 (Dec 14, 2013)

I'll break out the Dillon calipers sometime this weekend, hopefully. These Federal Cartidges were not new, but rather 10-12yrs old. But that is not enough time that I would suspect any significant deterioration, if any. Discoloration looks more like sheer stress indicators (note 45 degree angle for you mechanical engineers) combined with heat effects. So I'm not thinking manufacturing defects in the metallurgy, since I only see it at the ends of the split. Now are the walls too thin? I'll run a paper clip in the inside and see if there is a distinct resizing ring. .38spl is such a low pressure round, that even if the brass was remanufactured it would have to have quite a few reloads on them. I'll check the case length too. If they are overly long, that might be another indicator that I have reused brass. Highly doubt that coming from Federal.


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## Shortround6 (Dec 14, 2013)

I doubt Federal would try to pass off used brass as new but but might have gotten a bad lot of brass from a supplier or if not sufficiently annealed during the drawing process it might be (or have become) more brittle than normal.

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## bobbysocks (Dec 15, 2013)

with cracks that big i would think you would see some discoloration in the chamber of the cylinder. personally i am thinking its the brass' fault....either cheap ( thin wall )...or defective. just in case next time i shot that gun i would inspect the brass from each chamber and if one is cracked i would mark it and see if it produces another.


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## Matt308 (Dec 15, 2013)

My thoughts exactly.


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## Torch (Dec 16, 2013)

I've only had one cracked case when I reloaded 9mm,.45,44m,357/38 and .308. It was with a .308 but it split at the neck, I usually don't reload my brass more than 5xs especially with hotter loads. Your scenario is a little weird,you had no issues with .357 but only .38, I would think if it were an issue with the pistol itself it would show up on the .357s....


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## Torch (Dec 16, 2013)

Interesting thread..Old reloads - split cases [Archive] - The Firing Line Forums


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## Torch (Dec 16, 2013)

Funny,I had a model 66 with a 3" barrel,liked the little gun. When I took the wife for her NRA safety course I let her use it. i had .38 sissy/target loads for her and she was doing fine. Ran about 75 rds of those and ran out. I hand her another box which dummy me had not marked, and all of the sudden I hear KABOOM,multiple times,I look over and she is wide eyed,missed the target and not happy. I didn't realize it but I gave her real hot in spec .357rds that I used in my larger framed S&Ws. Thing is I had to tap the spent rounds out of the cyl because the case's had swollen. Never cracked thou.So the point is the cyl absorbes the pressure,not the case. I'm still leaning towards the brass being defective.


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## Torch (Dec 16, 2013)

From the SigForum...Age shouldn't have anything to do with it. Measure the bore diameter and measure some of the unfired brass to see which is the problem. You may want to measure the fired rounds too, both normal and cracked cartridges.
Also inspect the bore of the barrel to see if it has a crack or other problem.


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## mikewint (Dec 17, 2013)

Change of subject but a new ammo store opened about 16mi away and he is stocked to the ceiling with just about everything and while prices are higher than I'd like to see they are not too bad. Bought several bricks (YES BRICKS) of .22LR (Remington Golden Bullet) for $35 ber box. And last night on Gunbroker I actually got a BRICK of .22WMR CCI for $117. Had to stay up till after midnight but it was worth it


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## GrauGeist (Dec 17, 2013)

I bought a box of Remington .22 Goldens a while back to run through my Umarex at the range. Damned things kept misfiring and effing up, so I abandoned them for some Winchester .22 ammo that worked flawlessly.

Can't say I was too impressed...


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## Torch (Dec 18, 2013)

.22lr brands can be so touchy depending on the firearms,You would think because it runs good on one it would work well on another. Used to have a Sig skeeter,that was one tempermental .22..Got rid of it and picked up a Ruger mk2 instead. No trouble what so ever. Or just stick to my S&W 6" 617.


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## mikewint (Dec 18, 2013)

Dave, have not tried them yet, the box says "high velocity" but we shall see


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## javlin (Dec 18, 2013)

Torch said:


> .22lr brands can be so touchy depending on the firearms,You would think because it runs good on one it would work well on another. Used to have a Sig skeeter,that was one tempermental .22..Got rid of it and picked up a Ruger mk2 instead. No trouble what so ever. Or just stick to my S&W 6" 617.



I hear what you are saying.I had an old(50-60yrs) 22lr tube feed and on rd#15(18 )would feed but misfire I finally broke her down last year and the nylon buffer was damaged got a replacement and seems fine now.How the buffer came into play  but rds 16-18 would fire and it was more prone to Remy but occured some with CCI.


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## GrauGeist (Dec 18, 2013)

Hope they work fine for ya', Mike!

Possible that I got a batch made too early on a Monday morning or perhaps my Umarex doesn't like 'em.


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## razor1uk (Dec 19, 2013)

Matt308 said:


> No bulges whatsoever on any brass fired. Just a longitudinal crack.


Just wondering if that's the natural as is surface of the casings, as they appear of quite a granular appearance - I gather this might be from previous usages, otherwise indicative IMHO of a poorer quality metallurgical brass alloy 'recipie'. 

Also as suggested by others, as the splits seem mostly similar and in one area on each case, it could indicate firing pressure induce swelling to fit the naturally fractionally larger bore of the chamber - would reused casings get heat treated by firing while suffering some pressured induced thinning of the cartridge/case walls?

Mind-due, coming from the UK with only personal experience with an 2.2mm air rifle, I always thought gun cartridges were supposed to be smooth and 'shiney' looking in comparison to those pictured there.


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## javlin (Jan 5, 2014)

This comes from Michael Banes Blog here : The Michael Bane Blog

When I finally got to shoot a 4-Bore a few years ago at one of the Vintager World Cups it was everything I hoped (or imagined) it would be. The double-barreled 4-Bore didn't so much recoil as alter the entire space-time continuum...one instant I was standing in one place; the next instance, a different place. The entire universe shifted a couple of degrees...like being in an episode of Dr. Who.

A very enjoyable read 

They are heavy for a reason; they are powerful! The metal must contain the tremendous strain of the charge and breech thrust, and they must have enough mass to keep the recoil from crushing the shooter. As it is, they generate well over 200 foot-pounds, something special when you realize that a .458 Winchester only backs up with a gentle 56-pound shove


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## GrauGeist (Jan 5, 2014)

wow! That would be simply awesome to give a try.

When I was much younger, I was given the opportunity (ok, actually I was volunteered) to give my Uncle's .8 gauge a try.

No problem, I thought...a little bigger than a .12 gauge, what could it hurt?

If there was ever a real-time demonstration of dividing by zero, this was it. When the smoke and dust settled, I got up from a sitting position and handed the shotgun back then went and sat down (on purpose) for a while to heal a little bit.

Don't recall what make it was, but I know it was fairly old, top-break single barrel and beat the sh!t out of me.


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## mikewint (Jan 6, 2014)

Dad had an old 10 gauge goose gun but that was as big as I ever shot, can't even imagine a 4


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## Torch (Feb 19, 2014)

just picked up a 1943 Mosin-Nagant,bore looks good up to the crown,trigger nice. Going to tear her apart to make sure all the cosmoline is out of the trigger and bolt assembly,ammo still fairly cheap. Will eventually strip the stock and refinish it..Looking forward to firing it. Will joing my Mauser as part of my ww2 collection,next an Enfield or Garand...


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## javlin (Mar 27, 2014)

I had a little problem with the squirrels around the house awhile back dug a hole through the roof literally it looked like Godzilla hit it with a can opener.So I did the repair but decided it was time to update the air rifle situation to a break away setup with a higher velocty so I P/U this: Gamo Whisper .177 Caliber Air Rifle Combo - Dick's Sporting Goods mine was advertised @1300 fps w/PBA and 1100 fps with lead.But I started taking these little fellas out with 25yd shots standing freehand through the ribcage with a single expanding pellet much better than the old 22 pump.


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## mikewint (Mar 27, 2014)

Yea, Ya gots to love the little critters. Here besides robbing the bird feeders they love to chew on the electrical companies junction boxes. Spring and fall the power flickers 3 -4 times per day just enough to zero all the digital clocks. I use my .22 WMR Henry w/ 9-power scope but only head shots count


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## parsifal (Mar 28, 2014)

somebody said ages ago in this thread that it seems every household in the US has a gun, whereas in the rest of the world, its rare for a house to have any gun. 

Until 1996 i owned a Berreta 12 Gauge fully automatic shotgun. When i was a kid I owned a 22 semi auto of french origin. beautiful little gun, but I dont remember the make. Best shot i ever made was with that little gun, shot a crow at over 400 yards. it had a neat litle scope and a drop down magazine. 

When i was twleve we went on the first of many hunting trips. it was the first time i used a 12 gauge, and this calibre became my favourite class of weapon. it was so versatile, could even go fishing, of sorts.

ive owned a double barrel, a double barrel with hammer actions, a replica muzzle loader with percussion caps, a single shot 12 Gauge , the 22 semi auto, a 22 stirling bolt action, a 243 lever action and scope, and finally the Beretta, which was without a doubt the sweetest shotgun ive ever owned. 

i shot so many roos and other things I got bored with it, particulalry since for quite a few years my job required that i carry a gun. 

I got over it and sold all my guns before 1996, except the Beretta. then new laws were introduced in Australia that banned all autometics and semi autos and assault style weappons. There was a government buy back, which i took advantage of. 

I dont own a gun now, and to be hoinest, i dont miss them


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 28, 2014)

Baretta makes a great product. I have never heard anything bad about them. I love my .40 S&W Baretta 96A1. Accurate, reliable and very smooth.

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## Torch (Mar 28, 2014)

I have 2 Italian 92FS,both Italian made,1 a SS compact and the other a fairly modified full size. Both great shooters.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 28, 2014)

Torch said:


> I have 2 Italian 92FS,both Italian made,1 a SS compact and the other a fairly modified full size. Both great shooters.



My 96A1 is also Italian made. 

Having fired both the Italian made 96A1 that I own and the US made M9 that I used in the military, I prefer the Italian made ones. The actions seem so much smoother. Of course the military M9s were used and abused.


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## mikewint (Mar 28, 2014)

Though 8 years out of date:
In December 2006, the Center for Naval Analyses released a report on U.S. small arms in combat. The CNA conducted surveys on 2,608 troops returning from combat in Iraq and Afghanistan over the past 12 months. Only troops who fired their weapons at enemy targets were allowed to participate. 
58 percent of M9 users reported they were satisfied with the weapon, which was the lowest satisfaction rate in the survey. 
48 percent of users were dissatisfied with the M9's ammunition. 
76 percent were dissatisfied with accuracy
66 percent were dissatisfied with range
88 percent dissatisfied with rate of fire. 
48 percent were dissatisfied with its ability to attach accessories. 
26 percent reported a stoppage 
45 percent reported their weapon's magazine did not fail to feed completely. 
46 percent were not confident in the M9's reliability, defined as level of soldier confidence their weapon will fire without malfunction, mainly due to difficulty of maintenance. 
The M9 had the lowest levels of soldier confidence in reliability and durability. 74 percent of M9 users offered recommendations for improvements. 26 percent of requests were for increased caliber or stopping power, with some specifically requesting returning to .45 ACP rounds. 20 percent of requests were for a new pistol. Other recommendations were for more durable magazines and better grips.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 28, 2014)

I can concur with that. The military M9s were in pretty sad shape.

The Italian civilian made versions are great quality however.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 28, 2014)

I can concur with that. The military M9s were in pretty sad shape.

The Italian civilian made versions are great quality however.


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## javlin (Mar 28, 2014)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I can concur with that. The military M9s were in pretty sad shape.
> 
> The Italian civilian made versions are great quality however.





DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I can concur with that. The military M9s were in pretty sad shape.
> 
> The Italian civilian made versions are great quality however.



Where is Matt when you need him

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## GrauGeist (Mar 29, 2014)

javlin said:


> Where is Matt when you need him


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## vikingBerserker (Mar 29, 2014)




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## parsifal (Mar 29, 2014)

The italians have a long history of exceelent small arms manufacture. During WWII they were somewaht left behind because they failed to adopt modern mass production techniques, but Beretta in particular produced really high quality products. Its just that in wartime small arms have to be cheap and quickly produced. Berettas products are anything but that. From an individuals POV Beretta are one of the best, but from an army equipment POV, the costs of manufacture made them less than ideal.

With the m9, Ive heard of these difficulties, but never actually seen it for myself. Ive never actually handled the weapon to be honest. From a procurement standpoint, however, if rectifying its obvious faults makes it expensive, its probably not worth worrying about. Firepower from small arms probably accounts for less than 5% of overall enemy casualties, though maybe more in these small sized brush fire wars of late. If fixing the problem say doubled the unit cost for the army, there would be a reduction in the boots on the ground, and that IS a major problem.


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## Torch (Mar 29, 2014)

Mike was that report out when they were cracking slides? Read they fixed that problem. One concern was the size of the grip,pretty large for alot of people. I'm sure I have fired no where near the amount of some M9s but I couldn't be happier with mine. I actually like my full size better than my Sig P226 Dark Elite...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 29, 2014)

Here is my Baretta 96A1.

I could not be happier...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 29, 2014)

Torch said:


> Mike was that report out when they were cracking slides? Read they fixed that problem. One concern was the size of the grip,pretty large for alot of people. I'm sure I have fired no where near the amount of some M9s but I couldn't be happier with mine. I actually like my full size better than my Sig P226 Dark Elite...



You will be. The Italian made ones are great (as parsifal pointed out as well). The M9s, the military uses are mass produced in the US, and used and abused. We had lots of problems with ours.


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## mikewint (Mar 29, 2014)

Over the last 6mo or so I've finally managed to get a Ruger Mini-30. It shoots the 7.62 x 39 cartrige. Unfortunately most of this ammo is steel cased, Berdan primed ammo with steel-core bullets made in Russia like Wolf, Bear, WPA, etc. I have managed to find so pretty desent MFS ammo which is Eastern Bloc but zinc-plated steel and non-corrosive but still steel core bullets. Fortunately Fiocchi makes brass cased FMJ lead rounds. Ruger only sells 20rnd mags but Thermold makes 30rnd. Other than that I've installed a Pic rail and my first Holo-sight. It has 5-levels of brightness and 4 reticles to choose from. Unfortunately an Allen wrench is needed to adjust
Second is a real hoot to shoot, Hi-Point's 995 carbine. It comes in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. With the price of ammo these days I opted for the 9mm. Box of 100rnds is $25 The only downside is the in-handle mag which is only 10rnds. Pro-Mag makes an extended 15rnd but Hi-Point has dire warnings against using it saying it will damage the loading ramp. I've installed a compensator, forend grip, mil-grade 10mW green laser, and Holo sight. It's not pretty but it is fun

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## Torch (Mar 29, 2014)

Oh nooooo another BLACK rifle!!!!!! ....Nice!!!!


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## MacArther (Mar 29, 2014)

mikewint said:


> ...
> Second is a real hoot to shoot, Hi-Point's 995 carbine. It comes in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. With the price of ammo these days I opted for the 9mm. Box of 100rnds is $25 The only downside is the in-handle mag which is only 10rnds. Pro-Mag makes an extended 15rnd but Hi-Point has dire warnings against using it saying it will damage the loading ramp. I've installed a compensator, forend grip, mil-grade 10mW green laser, and Holo sight. It's not pretty but it is fun


I've been interested in acquiring a 9mm or other such pistol caliber plinking gun. How would you say the accuracy is? Do you have to use specific ammo (i.e. no FMJs, no P+ rounds)? Is there a brand besides the gun you own that you would suggest?


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## mikewint (Mar 29, 2014)

You can't beat the Hi-point. It shoots 9mm x 19 ammo which is standard Luger ammo and it will take +P. I paid $299 at a gun show and Hi-point warants the gun for life. I had no problems holding four-inch groups, shooting offhand at 25 yards, using the factory sights. From a padded rest, groups averaged around two inches at 25 yards with factory iron sights. The addition of a Holo sight didn't tighten the groups appreciably, but did make it much easier for me to get on target quickly. Shooting at across-the living-room distances (21 feet), groups of 1.5 inches are easily attainable, and even my rapid fire groups were under four inches. It ain't pretty but it's fun to shoot


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## Elmas (Mar 30, 2014)

Many years ago I had one like this
F.a.s 22 L.R.






and one like this

Anschutz 22 L.R.






Both sold when my work was beginning to take me too much of my spare time.....


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## Torch (Mar 30, 2014)

Now that's a real sad story...........


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## bobbysocks (Mar 30, 2014)

javlin said:


> I had a little problem with the squirrels around the house awhile back dug a hole through the roof literally it looked like Godzilla hit it with a can opener.So I did the repair but decided it was time to update the air rifle situation to a break away setup with a higher velocty so I P/U this: Gamo Whisper .177 Caliber Air Rifle Combo - Dick's Sporting Goods mine was advertised @1300 fps w/PBA and 1100 fps with lead.But I started taking these little fellas out with 25yd shots standing freehand through the ribcage with a single expanding pellet much better than the old 22 pump.



ok i just glanced at this before i was called away from my desk. i got to read part of the first line about problems with grinnies ( squirrels for all you non-western pa folks )...anyways i though you had an OOOOPS and blasted a hole in your roof! was glad when i read that wasnt the case.....


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## Torch (Mar 31, 2014)

Between squirrels and red headed woodpeckers they can cause alot of damage to your house. When I lived in Aspen Park(7400') the woodpeckers would make mince meat out of my cedar siding,no bugs either...


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## yulzari (Apr 5, 2014)

Martini Henry MkIV I ordered from IMA arrived today. Perfect! 90 years in storage yet just needs to be cleaned then ready to fire. Exceedingly happy with it. Now to order some cases and a bullet mould.

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## vikingBerserker (Apr 5, 2014)

yulzari said:


> Martini Henry MkIV I ordered from IMA arrived today. Perfect! 90 years in storage yet just needs to be cleaned then ready to fire. Exceedingly happy with it. Now to order some cases and a bullet mould.



Awesome!


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## GrauGeist (Apr 5, 2014)

yulzari said:


> Martini Henry MkIV I ordered from IMA arrived today. Perfect! 90 years in storage yet just needs to be cleaned then ready to fire. Exceedingly happy with it. Now to order some cases and a bullet mould.


Nice!


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## Torch (Apr 5, 2014)

Congrats...


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## javlin (Apr 5, 2014)

Nice throw some pics when when you can


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## yulzari (Apr 6, 2014)

I spoke with those who know more than I on Martinis. This one was made as an Enfield-Martini in .402" bore. By this time the .303" Lee-Metford was arriving and most units had .450" Martini-Henrys so the War Office decided 3 types of rifle ammunition was too silly and the new Enfield Martinis were rebuilt as MkIV Martini-Henrys with new 1887 receivers and reverting to .450" so that only 2 types of rifle ammunition were needed. 

This one retains all the original parts from it's new persona as a MkIV Martini-Henry Pattern A. As British units were now getting Lee-Metfords it probably was sent to the Indian Army and looks as if it was rarely used until it was refurbished in September 1908 in the Firozpur Arsenal and sent to the Nepal Army who left it in store for 90 years unused.

As a young recruit my grandfather was issued one of these initially before taking a Lee-Metford to the South African War and a Lee-Enfield to France in 1914. So it is nice to have the same myself and probably in better condition than his. More than forty years after his Martini-Henry he finished his service in the Home Guard on the East coast with a P14 Enfield when they were stood down in late 1944.

My Snider-Enfield looks a battered old nail compared to the newcomer Martini Henry.


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## mikewint (Apr 6, 2014)

As I recall the jamming of the breech block due to the thin brass foil cartriges and use of black powder was one of the main causes of the British defeat at the Battle of Isandlwana


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## yulzari (Apr 6, 2014)

mikewint said:


> As I recall the jamming of the breech block due to the thin brass foil cartriges and use of black powder was one of the main causes of the British defeat at the Battle of Isandlwana



By the MkIV drawn cartridges and the long lever got around the problem but all black powder breechloaders are vulnerable to fouling in the breech whatever their design with French and German soldiers being reduced to weeing down their Chassepots and Dreyse in the 1870 war. The Martini Henry extractor is a less than impressive design though. I shall be using smokeless Tu2000 when my Alsatian supplier gets some in stock so all should be well.

There were many factors in play at Isandlwana but, myself, I put the root cause down to poor tactical decisions based upon over confidence in firepower and ignoring intelligence on the enemy. Rourkes Drift showed that close massed defence made the best use of the firepower and allowed the trained soldiers to deal with stoppages whilst being supported by their neighbours. There was a drill to deal with stuck cases by hammering them out with the cleaning rod down the barrel. Takes about 20 seconds to draw the rod, poke it down the barrel and drive the gun down onto the rod onto the ground with full body weight. Replace rod and carry on. When there is a lull standard practice was to clean the guns by alternate sections. This I had from my grandfather from 'old sweats' when he was a young recruit.

This was nothing new of course. Flintlock muskets had a misfire rate on around 1 in 6 in battle and flints needed to be replaced. The close order musket tactics also allowed soldiers to deal with stoppages whilst being supported by their colleagues. You can't do that when you are in one line spaced out at 2 metres apart. In close order you bayonet the man trying to stab your neighbour and rely on your neighbour to do the same for you.

Essentially the Zulus out generalled their enemy.

However, lecture over and we can return to normal programming..........


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## bobbysocks (Apr 6, 2014)

a little tongue in cheek...guns (well sort of ) i had. i was never at a loss for the finest of arms growing up. believe or not it was my mother who was the main purchaser of my birthday/christmas toys and she picked some good ones. i am sure my dad had a hand in there with some of them but shopping was more my mom's gig. the first one i remember was a black thompson with a drum mag. it was kind of like the picture but wasnt a cap gun...pulled the charging handle back and the machinegun like sounds came from a resonator in the drum. from there in the early 60s i had a battery powered 50 cal on a tripod...much like the one in the pic but mine was green and black camo. this gun came in particularly handy during episodes of 12 o'clock high when the lw was making a run on my b17...of course i wasnt allowed to have the batteries in it as it made too much noise. 2 others i distinctly remember were heavier ordnanace. later in the 60s i had a 60mm mortar like the one pictured and a bazooka of the same configuration. i had many more after those...but later in the 60s tv went more from war shows like combat, 12 oclock high, garrison's gorillas, the rat patrol....to more spy vs spy stuff like man from uncle, secret agent...etc. while i did enjoy those it was the early toy guns that remain my fondest. guess this kind of explains my affection for the real ones....a quality fostered by my dear old mom....














here's a site with tons of pictures of antique toys from the 50s and 60s...kinda fun just to look through

Vintage Toys Photo Gallery of Sold Items - 1950's, 1960's, 1970's


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## javlin (Apr 25, 2014)

Something to move the guns out to my friends range/house about 10 days of work while working 100 hrs over those ten days

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## mikewint (Apr 25, 2014)

Javlin, First the transport box? Very nicely done wood working and layout. The guns would appear to be very secure. Second, do you really move that many guns? I might take 2 or 3 and a pistol or two but that would be about it. Then there's the ammo to haul...2 - 3,000 rounds or more. I use soft, padded Cordura gun bags which will also hold 6 - 8 loaded magazines as well.


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## javlin (Apr 25, 2014)

Thanks Mike.I don't usually move that many about six is the what I take with 100-200rds per gun.I made the extra storage in the event another hurricane comes along and I need to bug out I would still have a couple in the front seat.One of the reasons I stayed after Katrina was because I had 15K in the house of rifles once the PD told me how the looters were operating.I have an old chevy truck with the wood bed outback and I wood screw the box to the floor of the bed.I had abit of a problem getting the lid to line up properly tonight so instead of four individual hinges might go the long hinges if available.


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## Torch (Apr 27, 2014)

Very nice Javelin


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## vikingBerserker (Apr 27, 2014)

Great case!


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## javlin (Sep 23, 2014)

Latest addition to the arsenal ATI Stg 44 the price was right.The guns is 9.5lbs and the original was 11-11.5lbs.She shoots 22LR I would of preferred 22 mag but they did not make one but thought's are going through the mind can it be done  the case on the mag is a few thousands bigger and longer so it's the breach and headspace.


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## vikingBerserker (Sep 23, 2014)

Now that is one good looking gun!


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## javlin (Sep 23, 2014)

vikingBerserker said:


> Now that is one good looking gun!



Thks Dave fills that niche' in the collection I would never be able to afford @25K-40K


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## GrauGeist (Sep 23, 2014)

Love those .22 repros...probably the best way to enjoy the classics without costing a fortune!

I know my Umarex M4 .22 creates a stir at the range...especially when I lay out a few rounds and bystanders were expecting the sharp report of the 5.56/.223 and all they hear is the pop of the .22!


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## bobbysocks (Sep 23, 2014)

always loved ther STG 44.....wold love one in a bigger round though.


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## javlin (Sep 23, 2014)

bobbysocks said:


> always loved ther STG 44.....wold love one in a bigger round though.



That's why I am going to check with a gunsmith I know about the 22mags configuration possibility .I figure if it fits the mag then we are half way home.The other concern is the breech and pressures created with a 22magnum which can obtained in 45g close to 2000fps while a .223 is a 55g @3000fps if it can be done would make a formidable weapon with a 20+ mag.

Bobbysocks one was produced and MarStar in Canada was getting the import rights there but our wonderful ATF said it was to close to the original and might of made a FA conversion.I think this probably occurred maybe 10years ago and retail was 3-4K alittle pricey but if you wanted a close replica that was the way to gh and if I remember it really was not that close at all but more the hideous gun look.You have to look here 2008 Firing Stg44 replicas!
and another Heads up! Marstar has posted pricing on repro STG44's, etc. it was happening but it just fell through.I remeber a guy out in NV or AZ was doing a repo of the FG42 had pretty much cleared the ATF but heard those were going for 10K but have not heard anything in years.

I should of gotten off the cash when Ohio Ordinance had them for about 3.3K(BAR) but at least they are back in stock 1918A3-SLR Walnut Stock - OOW Line - Semi Auto - Guns


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## Torch (Sep 24, 2014)

That .22lr is on my want list,one of the coolest looking ones out there,plus it's supposed to be pretty accurate too..


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## mikewint (Sep 24, 2014)

From what I understand the gun is exact in every detail except the caliber. Even cooler is the wooden box (Amish made) that it comes in. GSG makes some really great repoductions all in .22LR. Almost bought one a year or so ago but the $800 price tag was too much for a .22LR. Recently a Texas firm has them for $399 
Javlin, not a gunsmith but I don't think it is reasonably possible. The length of the case make extraction/ejection difficult which is why there are few semi-auto .22WMR.
I have the Kel-Tec PMR-30 and unless I use CCI ammo functioning can be problematical


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## javlin (Sep 24, 2014)

You might be right Mike but it's an idea I am going to look into and I did get mine out of TX for $349+$26 shipping and $50 for the transfer being it's NIB used guns are $35.


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## GrauGeist (Sep 25, 2014)

I have been looking at German Sport Guns' MP40...Lord knows I don't need anything like that right now...but come on, it's an MP40! 

Of course, if finances permitted, I'd be getting the Zestava Black Arrow...and the MP40 (or both)

For more GSG eye candy, have a look: http://www.gsg-waffen.de/index-en.html


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## javlin (Sep 26, 2014)

Here she is and my local gun shop only charged me a $30 transfer fee She sure does feel good while handling her and feels very authentic with balance


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## Siddley (Sep 26, 2014)

javlin said:


> That's why I am going to check with a gunsmith I know about the 22mags configuration possibility .I figure if it fits the mag then we are half way home.The other concern is the breech and pressures created with a 22magnum which can obtained in 45g close to 2000fps while a .223 is a 55g @3000fps if it can be done would make a formidable weapon with a 20+ mag.



You don't really have headspace in the conventional sense with an action like that because it uses a rimmed round and doesn't fire from a locked breech.
As long as the new chamber is cut to spec then the headspace will take care of itself.
The real issue is timing. There is going to be a lot more thrust on the bolt and it will open too early and with too much velocity. This will probably give rise to cartridges rupturing on ejection and the bolt whacking the buffer on the rearward stroke. 
There are two ways to deal with this - increase the weight of the bolt so it has more inertia and increase the strength of the recoil spring. It's quite a tricky balancing act to get right. There will be more stress placed on the action as a result which may or may not be a longevity issue with the receiver.

If I had the job of figuring out if the conversion was feasible I would start with the magazine though. I would make up some 22 mag dummy rounds and see if it cycled properly by hand. Magazines and feed ramps are tricky things and it doesn't take much to cause fail to feeds and general unreliability. When it comes to cartridge swaps the magazine is arguably the most difficult part on a semiauto.

Good luck though !

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## javlin (Sep 26, 2014)

Well the 22mag rds fit the magazine albeit abit tight understandable seeing the 22mag are .015" bigger in OD.The bolt comes back far enough to almost eject a .223 case much less a magnum case good to go there.I shot the question off to ATI Siddley about the bolt pressures and it seems a few others have asked why not the 22mag rd. Kevin

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## mikewint (Sep 27, 2014)

Good Luck with this, I also really liked this gun but the price (at the time) and the .22LR caliber turned me away. Now I do like the .22WMR cartrige. It sounds like a cannon in the PMR30 and in my Henry lever action they're tack drivers and the rifle has a nice bark. So if this is feasable and reasonable I'd love to do it as well


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## javlin (Sep 27, 2014)

I just got to get the answer back from ATI or the manufacturer himself on the pressures but then find a gunsmith I am comfortable with.


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## mikewint (Sep 27, 2014)

With all the legal liabilities involved I think everyone will bow out to CYA. But please keep me/us posted


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## Siddley (Sep 27, 2014)

I didn't know this when I originally posted but apparently Ruger discontinued their 22 mag version of the 10\22 because of timing\pressure issues. 

I would be inclined to enjoy it as it is. 

If you feel ambitious I have a complete set of factory blueprints for the original STG44 somewhere


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## mikewint (Sep 28, 2014)

Well if I had a complete machine shop and knew what I was doing. Then the BATF here can get really nasty about automatic firearms


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## GrauGeist (Sep 28, 2014)

I know a few folks that have the permits for full auto weapons...it is not cheap.


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## mikewint (Sep 28, 2014)

Very true, wonder how they would feel/handle a homemade full auto


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## javlin (Sep 28, 2014)

mikewint said:


> Very true, wonder how they would feel/handle a homemade full auto



You can with a class IV license you pay the standard $200 Yearly(!) unlike with standard F/A's it's a one time fee but you can never ever transfer that firearm.The thing is with the right equipment you could probably do one for under a couple grand if not less and even paying the $200 yearly that's only $2000 over ten years as to compare to the 15K-?? for some already built.Now remember Post-May examples are 1/3-1/2 the cost what we the John Q public pay and what about the old grease gun cost nothing to make


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Oct 15, 2014)

I just made my first gun purchase. I would post a photo but still am not able to post this site yet. Anyway, I bought a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum, new. It has a 5 1/2" barrel with a non fluted cylinder. I could only find one in the country with the 5 1/2' barrel and it is stainless. So I will make due. Won't have to clean it as much as I would the blued. It's a beautiful little gun and I have yet to put a round through it.

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## mikewint (Oct 15, 2014)

Aaron, you will like it. Check my back posts I have almost the same gun except mine is the Bisley and has a longer 7.5in barrel. The Bisley grip helps with the recoil putting it straight into your hand reducing barrel climb and the longer barrel adds weight. Enjoy


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Oct 15, 2014)

I was looking for a Bisley with a 5 1/2" barrel but could not find one. I friend of mine has one but they're are none to be had in the country. I looked EVERY WHERE. Bob's has the Hogue grips to. I'll have to keep a tighter grip with the pinky on the lower grip to counter the rise.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 15, 2014)

Congrats on the Ruger, Aaron!

Sounds like you've got yourself a gem and in a .44, that's sure a handful!

I've fired several of the large caliber revolvers over the years, like the Dan Wesson, Ruger Redhawk/Blackhawk, etc. and didn't really find them to be something I'd want to own. This of course excludes the family's vintage Colt .41, which is a real kick in the ass to run a few rounds through.

Semi-auto pistols aside, I've found that in a tense situation, a .357 tends to be more manageable.


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## mikewint (Oct 16, 2014)

Dave, agreed, would not trade my Python for the world plus you can plink with .38 special
Aaron, ran across this one at a local gun show and snatched it up. I've personally always liked the longer barrels. Dave is certainly right about the recoil. It's manageable but not a shoot all day gun. Box of 50 and it's time for the .22. Problem with the Bisley is there are no soft grips for it, at least none I've been able to locate.
As to the 5.5in check out gunbroker.com there are 3 of them for sale, just checked


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## GrauGeist (Oct 16, 2014)

Well, I should make a point right now, that this new revolver of Aaron's will always be his crown jewel. 

I should also mention that if it's pointed at a bad guy, there is a very good chance that the bad guy will suddendly feel the need to find Jesus and the report of that beast will make the bad guy not only fill his drawers, but scream like a school girl.

A .44 is not something to be taken lightly!

Personally, the revolver that I own, that is the most fearsome, is my .36 Parker Dragoon. Aside from the fact that it makes one hellova flash-bang, it's accurate as hell and has the advantage of being double jeopardy: soft lead round makes nasty un-round holes when it hits something as well as initiating gangrene in the wound if not treated immediately.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 16, 2014)

If you don't handload you can use .44 Specials for fun/practice although they are not so easy to find. 

I have 2 old Blackhawks in .45 Colt. 7 1/2 and 4 5/8 barrels.


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## mikewint (Oct 16, 2014)

Dave not familiar with that one. Cap Ball or Flintlock? Muzzle loader or revolver? Added plus with black powder at close range you can set them on fire


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## GrauGeist (Oct 16, 2014)

Mike, the Parker Dragoon is a .36 "cap and ball" revolver that was favored by Confederate (and some Union) cavalrymen and various officers. It wasn't as heavy as the Colts and with the lack of a "top strap", enabled the exchange of loaded cylinders for spent ones...think of it as an early "speed loader", if you will.

If memory serves me right, Clint Eastwood used historical accuracy and was shown swapping cylinders during a street melee in the movie "Pale Rider".

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## Shortround6 (Oct 16, 2014)

You can swap cylinders on the Remington (and few others) a lot easier. 







The Colts tend to leave you juggling an extra piece or two. 






I don't know what method the Parker Dragoon used.


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## mikewint (Oct 16, 2014)

Thanks guys, that's what I thought it was but I'm more familiar with the Colt dragoon. Been wanting to get into black powder though I tend to favor the old flintlocks. A few companies offer "kits" where you put together your own Kentucky long gun


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## GrauGeist (Oct 16, 2014)

The Parker used a similar lock tab as seen in your photo of the brass bodied revolver. With the absence of the "top-strap", the barrel assembly quickly slides forward, leaving the entire cylinder exposed, which is then removed and replaced with relative ease.

Reassembly is done by a few moves once the loaded cylinder is installed: align the barrel assembly on the center pin, slide into place and push the lock tab into position. Simple enough that it could be done on horseback by the Cavalrymen.

An observation here, also: having a brass bodied revolver without the "top strap" was never a good idea, as the brass lacks the necessary strength that steel has, especially in the larger calibers such as .44.

Here's my Fluted cylinder Parker assembled and then seen with the cylinder removed:


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## Siddley (Oct 16, 2014)

I love blackpowder guns, but one thing worries me about them - given my enviroment - and that is the amount of sparks they produce from the muzzle.
It is tinder dry here for months on end and wildfires are a very big deal.
Does anyone reading this live in a similar sort of climate ( south western US maybe ? ) and have experience of BP firearms ?

In the UK it wasn't a problem of course, because it hardly ever stops raining


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## GrauGeist (Oct 16, 2014)

Here in the West (Northern California), blackpowder deer hunting even has it's own seasonal time period on the calendar...matter of fact, hunting season is in full swing for both blackpowder and centerfire rifles. 

It is true that a blackpowder weapon can start a fire, but it's very rare that a forest fire (or brush fire) has been caused by a blackpowder rifle discharge. On that same note, when Elk hunting in the past, I used to carry my Parker (seen above in previous posts) as a sidearm when we would be up in the high country. Not only was it good for protection (it works remarkably well on rattlesnakes), but in an emergency you have the option to start a warming/cooking fire with it.

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## Shortround6 (Oct 16, 2014)

GrauGeist said:


> The Parker used a similar lock tab as seen in your photo of the brass bodied revolver. With the absence of the "top-strap", the barrel assembly quickly slides forward, leaving the entire cylinder exposed, which is then removed and replaced with relative ease.
> 
> Reassembly is done by a few moves once the loaded cylinder is installed: align the barrel assembly on the center pin, slide into place and push the lock tab into position. Simple enough that it could be done on horseback by the Cavalrymen.
> 
> ...



Very nice. 

The advantage of the Remington is that you have one less piece to juggle. Instead of barrel plus frame and cylinder the Remington has the loading lever drop, the cylinder pin is pulled forward (but not out) and the cylinder drops out the side. A bit more fiddle to put the cylinder back but then you have one holding the gun and one holding the cylinder.


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## Siddley (Oct 16, 2014)

I wouldn't like to drop a loaded and capped cylinder on a hard surface....


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## GrauGeist (Oct 16, 2014)

The nipples are recessed enough that if capped and then dropped, it would be a rare thing for it to hit just right to set the cap off. Then again, anything's possible...

Usually, I am more concerned about a "chain fire" situation where the discharging cylinder ignites an adjacent cylinder. That too, is not a very common occurrence and can be prevented by being careful.


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## Siddley (Oct 16, 2014)

Thought you might like this - it's a Uberti repro, obviously. I got it in a really neglected state, rusty and the wood was scratched and covered in some awful shiny varnish.
I took this photo after refinishing the wood with oil and cleaning up the metalwork. I saved almost all the bluing. I just noticed that I hadn't got around to replacing the rearsight when I took the pic.
Now it doesn't look so shiny, I keep the steel parts oiled, but the brass I allowed to age naturally. 
I'm tempted to chop the barrel to a carbine length ( it's 24" ) but I'm still undecided. Maybe I'll make up a new barrel instead.


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## mikewint (Oct 16, 2014)

Siddley, as you can see I live in Arkansas, North-Central to be exact and things can get very dry here. Two years ago all 4th of July fireworks were cancelled because it had not rained in 2 months. I have a back yard range and don't think I'd chance shooting black powder unless I watered the range area first. The local gun club has a black powder day but their range has nothing but dirt. 
Dave, that is a really nice handgun. Going to have to look closely at the next show to see if anyone brings in a BP handgun. Though that IWI Tavor... On a different note I would have thought .36 and BP a bit light for that area. I'd probably pack the .44mag or at least the XDm .45 for a bit more stopping power.

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## GrauGeist (Oct 16, 2014)

The two main calibers of sidearms during the Civil War were the .36 and .44, of course other calibers were present.

The .44 was often referred to as "Army" while the .36 was considered as "Navy". As it happens, the .36 was most often preferred by Calvary for it's weight and size. As for being a light caliber, unlike the .44 being effective at range, the Calvarymen were using the .36 at close ranges, much like the intention of the Navy's use of the .36 to repel boarders in close-quarters fighting.


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## Torch (Oct 16, 2014)

I drew a doe tag about 6-7 years back, so since I deemed a doe not worthy of my .300wsm I bought a S&W .460. Put a 4x Leupold on Weigand bases and had a damn accurate high powered hand gun. Never got a chance to take a shot at a deer but back in the base I decided to pop off a round at a rock about 100 yards away, told my friends fire in the hole ,hit the friggin rock but lost my hearing in my left ear. All was fine at the range with hearing protection but I could not hear out of my left ear for a couple of days,plus that damn buzz. So I got rid of the gun. I couldn't imagine taking a shot at a deer or more than one without permanent damage. And wearing ear protection hunting is just a no go. I have no problems with my .300wsm or other .300 win mags that I've had in the past. But what a gun, 1.5 inch groups at a hundred yards,recoil straight back........hmmm starting to miss it again.


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## Aaron Brooks Wolters (Oct 16, 2014)

When I get some more cash saved up I look there Mike, thanks. My next purchase will more than likely be a Para Ordnance PTZ14 or Elite with 5" barrel.
Dave I got this for my treks in the woods. We now have two resident mountain lions and the bears have really picked up. I don't want to shoot them with a gun, rather do it with my camera, but I wanted something that could take one of these down if I had to.


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## Torch (Oct 16, 2014)

If you want a bear gun look at a short barrel Ruger .480, or a S&W .460 or .500.... I would not do anything less than a .44mag for mountain lion on up. Or at least a Glock 20 in 10mm.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 16, 2014)

A cat is fairly stoppable but a bear is like a boar, in the fact that a headshot is out of the question unless you have some serious artillery. Most rounds will skip off their skull, which in turn really irritates it.

If a mountain lion is around, just maintain situational awareness, avoid stooping, bending over or presenting your back to it. Unless it's hurt, sick or starving, it will tend to avoid human contact. Bears can be the same way and in either case, if there's young nearby, time to leave. Period.


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## mikewint (Oct 17, 2014)

Torch, I posted this before but nowadays, shooting my XDm .45 or the .44mag or really any gun I wear ear muffs. Now back in the olden days in Vietnam with everyting in the world going off full auto, explosions, bombs, grenades, etc. no one ever wore any type of ear protection and no one even considered it necessary...
A .44mag HP round should take care of anything in N. America but you better hit it and you only have 6 rounds. S&W has their .500 handgun and their .460 XVR and the Desert Eagle automatic is .50 cal. Magnum Research has their 45-70 Government hand cannon and a German company WTS has a handgun shooting the .50BMG cartridge Baring one of these it's best to do as Dave suggests unless it is life or death.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 17, 2014)

I'm pretty used to bears and mountain lions and all sorts of other critters...I grew up around them and the irony is, they'll pretty much leave you alone if you extend the same courtesy.

By and large, it's humans that suck.

Anyway, like I said, I'm used to things with sharp, pointy parts and here's an example: Mom's front yard at night...the mountain lion is heading down towards the front porch (to the right). Folks, this is a bigass cat, that juniper hedge seen behind it is over waist-high.


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## Torch (Oct 17, 2014)

It's funny Mike, when I touch off a round when hunting with either .50 muzzle loader, .300wsm or my .270 I don't remember hearing it. I geuss concentrating on the sight,breathing etc gets enough adrenalin going that I don't hear the sound, thou I do hear the thwack of the round hitting the deer/elk, kinda weird. As for bear/cat protection I would rather avoid and get out of the situation then actually resorting to using a handgun...


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## mikewint (Oct 21, 2014)

This is the "HAND-gun" I mentioned by the German firm WTS Waffentechnik in Suhl. Caliber .50BMG weighing in at 16lbs (Yup same as a bowling ball) or 7.2kg with a 17in (43cm) barrel. Better hit it on the first shot 'cause your numb hand and arm won't work very well


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## GrauGeist (Oct 22, 2014)

Mike, check out a Zestava "Black Arrow" if you're wanting to see a badass .50 BMG rig.

Be warned, cover the keyboard in plastic, because of potential drooling...


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## mikewint (Oct 22, 2014)

Dave, first and foremost it is good to have you back. You and your input are highly valued
I am familiar with the "Black Arrow" and it is indeed a really nice cannon. In that respect there are a number of Bullpup .50BMGs on the market which can actually be fired from the shoulder standing. The Leader .50BMG at $7000 is supposed to recoil like an M1 Garand. A really cool one is the GM6 Lynx. Available in Canada on special order for a cool $14,700 it features a reciprocating barrel. The thing that caught my eye on the WTS is its classification as a PISTOL!!


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## bobbysocks (Oct 22, 2014)

GG, your mother better not leave the dog out early in the morning....lol. we have a lot of bear up where i have my camp. they never bother anything unless you let food or garbage out....and you have to clean off your grill right after cooking. i usually carry or have a firearm around but its more for possible rabid anmials than anything else.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 22, 2014)

mikewint said:


> Dave, first and foremost it is good to have you back. You and your input are highly valued


Thanks Mike, I appreciate it!


mikewint said:


> I am familiar with the "Black Arrow" and it is indeed a really nice cannon. In that respect there are a number of Bullpup .50BMGs on the market which can actually be fired from the shoulder standing. The Leader .50BMG at $7000 is supposed to recoil like an M1 Garand. A really cool one is the GM6 Lynx. Available in Canada on special order for a cool $14,700 it features a reciprocating barrel. The thing that caught my eye on the WTS is its classification as a PISTOL!!


I own several SA rifles that can produce a high RoF and I have fired weapons over the years that can simply squirt a full box down-range in the blink of an eye. But my personal preference is to take it easy and lay down the rounds one at a time. Of course, that's not as exciting 


bobbysocks said:


> GG, your mother better not leave the dog out early in the morning....lol. we have a lot of bear up where i have my camp. they never bother anything unless you let food or garbage out....and you have to clean off your grill right after cooking. i usually carry or have a firearm around but its more for possible rabid anmials than anything else.


Not to worry, Mom's shepherd doesn't go out unattended between sun-down and sun-up. There's plenty of Black Bears around the homestead, some can be pretty large, too. The bears around there are more interested in Mom's fruit trees or scrounging around in whatever one of the Cougars have killed.

One of the main reasons it's becoming a freakin' "mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom" around her place, is because of those dang deer. The population has exploded because of hunting limitations and naturally, the predator's population has increased in response.


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## mikewint (Oct 23, 2014)

DEER!! I've got at least +20 in the front and back yards every day/evening/night. They drive the dogs crazy. Cheyan would just love to catch one. Deer season starts on Nov 8th. So about 7AM I'll have a seat on the deck, coffee in hand, 30-30 in my lap, and wait for Bambi to come strolling by. Most likely by 7:30 there will be one less Odocoileus virginianus in Arkansas. Venison steaks on the grill Nov 15. LG


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## Wildcat (Oct 25, 2014)

Sound good Mike!
My brother and I took our two sons out for some target shooting today. They fired my Bro's .22 while we had some fun with these. The Winchester 30-30 is his, the A303 re-pro is mine with the rest belonging to our Dad. The A303 is brand new and was the first time I had fired her, man what a beauty! We reckon it had the biggest kick out of them all.

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## Siddley (Oct 25, 2014)

All nice rifles but the Springfield is a beauty. The parkerising on the receiver has that authentic greenish hue which is so difficult to reproduce.


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## mikewint (Oct 25, 2014)

My very first BIG rifle was an old .303 Enfield SMLE I bought for $12.00 in Chicago. The old Kleins Sporting Goods store where Lee Oswald got his Carcano. Cut down the stock and added new sights to "Sporterize" it. I really like the 30-30. Mine is posted in this thread


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## bobbysocks (Oct 26, 2014)

GrauGeist said:


> One of the main reasons it's becoming a freakin' "mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom" around her place, is because of those dang deer. The population has exploded because of hunting limitations and naturally, the predator's population has increased in response.



what they did over here years back to quell the deer population was release coyotes. so now we not only have deer ( since it didnt work that well ) but coyotes everywhere!


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## GrauGeist (Oct 26, 2014)

Hoping that Coyotes would bring the deer population into check wasn't the brightest idea...lol

In the large majority of areas, the balance is haywire because of the absence of Wolves and/or Grizzly Bears, especially in California and I know of other areas having the same problem. The wolves kept the other top predators in check as well as game, and the Grizzly Bears contributed to this in a large way as well. Without competition, the Mountain Lions and to a lesser degree, Bobcats, have the blooming Deer population to themselves. Now, with the limitations on hunting and an overall decline of the sport, the Deer population is growing and this is even threatening Elk populations in certain areas here in California, too.

It's a big mess, really...


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## Wildcat (Oct 27, 2014)

Thanks mate, I'm very happy with it too.


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## mikewint (Oct 30, 2014)

Oz is the shining star on how to screw up an ecology with introduced species. Starting with domestic animals like cats, goats, pigs, donkeys, brumbys, camels, and water buffalos that escaped and have become ferral. Then the introduced wild species like the cane toad, red fox, deer, and birds like the rock pigeon, starling and mynah just to mention a few

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## bobbysocks (Oct 31, 2014)

i think they figured introducing wolves might cause a few eyebrows to raise so coyotes were the better alternative. i would not be to keen with wolves loose in the area where my kids roam. they generally avoid people but do on occasion take down people like that jogger in alaska.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 31, 2014)

It is a fine line to walk, the balance between humans and nature. 

Nature has a way of bringing balance to things, humans have a way of messing that all up...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 29, 2014)

I just bought a Czech VZ 24 (Czech produced Mauser G98 ) Great condition, all matching numbers.

Won't actually have it at home for a few more weeks so no pics until then.


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## Torch (Nov 29, 2014)

Sweet.......


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## GrauGeist (Nov 29, 2014)

Congrats on the new addition!

Looking forward to pics!


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 29, 2014)

Very nice, congrats!


I went to the shooting range this weekend and rented a Thompson. That is a gun I would love to have to play with!


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## GrauGeist (Nov 29, 2014)

We have a Thompson in the family and it used to be a real kick in the shorts at the range. However, since the price of ammo (especially .45) has gone through the roof, it sits idle these days.

Also, loading the drum was never a fun task and it will take the end of your thumbnail off if given half a chance...


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## Torch (Dec 18, 2014)

I came across a Radom P64 9x18 in pretty good shape(a little holster wear on the tip of the barrel) and due to my Polish heritage I said what the heck. It looks a lot like the Walther PPK and comes apart just like it. The double action trigger pull is awful, the SA not bad at all. So I ordered an 18lb hammer spring,20lb recoil spring and a new firing pin spring from Wolff and 20 mins later I've got a very decent trigger pull,what a difference. Now off to the range, ammo is decent. 18.00 for 50 rds. The 9x18 Makarov slots between the .380acp(9mm Kurz) and the 9x19. Ballistics are better than the .380 but falls short of the 9mm.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 24, 2015)

Finally managed to actually bring home the VZ24 (Czech built Mauser G98. ).

Can't wait to put some rounds through her.


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## vikingBerserker (Jan 24, 2015)

Very nice!


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## parsifal (Jan 27, 2015)

such a handsome looking rifle those mausers. Nice socks as well

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 27, 2015)

parsifal said:


> such a handsome looking rifle those mausers. Nice socks as well



Yes us Americans and white socks.


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## Wildcat (Jan 29, 2015)

Very nice! I'm sure you'll have plenty of fun with her.


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## Wildcat (Apr 14, 2015)

Just added a re-pro M1907 sling to my Springfield. It's only a cheapo but its made of leather and looks the part.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 1, 2015)

Added a Springfield XD 45 .45ACP today.

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## GrauGeist (May 1, 2015)

Sweet and congrats on the new addition!!

I've been eyeballing Springfield's 1911 clone lately, as I still miss my old-school Colt.

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## Wildcat (May 2, 2015)

Cool!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 2, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> Sweet and congrats on the new addition!!
> 
> I've been eyeballing Springfield's 1911 clone lately, as I still miss my old-school Colt.



My next handgun will be a 1911 as well.


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## GrauGeist (May 2, 2015)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> My next handgun will be a 1911 as well.


What are you thinking about, a Springfield also?

I noticed that the Springfield has about the same weight, balance and "feel" of the old "slabside" Colt. When I held one, it was real comfortable, unlike alot of knockoffs.


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## GrauGeist (May 2, 2015)

nice...I really enjoy this "two posts for the price of one click" BS...


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## Bucksnort101 (May 6, 2015)

Looking at picking up a Ruger SR1911 CMD (Commander) pretty soon. Only drawback I can see is it doesn't come with an ambidextrous thumb safety, but that can be replaced with aftermarket products.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 6, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> What are you thinking about, a Springfield also?
> 
> I noticed that the Springfield has about the same weight, balance and "feel" of the old "slabside" Colt. When I held one, it was real comfortable, unlike alot of knockoffs.



Probably Springfield. I live pretty close to where they make them.


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## Shortround6 (May 7, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> nice...I really enjoy this "two posts for the price of one click" BS...




A built in "Double tap"?


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## Torch (May 7, 2015)

My new toy to add to my other CZ family(CZ-75PCR,CZ-75B Omega) a CZ P-09 and almost forgot a Walther P99c AS

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 7, 2015)

Nice!


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## bobbysocks (May 10, 2015)

i always liked CZs.


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## Torch (May 11, 2015)

It joins my 75b Omega and a 75 PCR...


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## javlin (May 15, 2015)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Finally managed to actually bring home the VZ24 (Czech built Mauser G98. ).
> 
> Can't wait to put some rounds through her.



I like that straight bolt on the Mauser's Chris.I have had one (VZ24) for quite a few years and can still touch the the gong @300yds + with open sites 2 out 5.


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## javlin (May 15, 2015)

P/U this Ruger Scout .308 been wanting one for years.I have not shot it as of yet due to the health and Doc issues but I feel it coming soon

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## vikingBerserker (May 15, 2015)

NICE!


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## GrauGeist (May 15, 2015)

Nice addition, Kevin!

Congrats!


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## Wildcat (May 15, 2015)

Awesome Kev! The gunsite scout is the next rifle I will be buying. I'm picking up a new Howa today so will post pictures of it later.


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## Wildcat (May 16, 2015)

Here she is. Howa 1500 .223 with 10 round magazine.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 16, 2015)

Nice rifle.

I thought firearms where not allowed in Australia.


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## GrauGeist (May 16, 2015)

Wildcat said:


> Here she is. Howa 1500 .223 with 10 round magazine.


Great looking rifle!



DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Nice rifle.
> 
> I though firearms where not allowed in Australia.


I was wondering about that as well...


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## Wildcat (May 16, 2015)

Anyone can own a gun here, you just need a valid reason ie sports shooting. Depending on the type of license you hold, restricts the type of weapons you are able to own. I hold a Cat A B firearms license which allows me to own rimfire, centre fire rifles and shotguns. I can not buy a handgun or semi auto weapon.
See here for more info Getting a License


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 16, 2015)

Interesting did not know that. All the propaganda machines here spew about how weapons are banned everywhere else in the world (including Australia).


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## javlin (May 16, 2015)

Interesting Rifle had to go look up the manufacturer myself heard of them but no experience with them Andy.The mag is that a single stack or double?The Ruger goes single heard it makes the feed issue smoother on a bolt  Also your Howa got a heavy barrel by the looks?I am thinking of loading some bullets for the Ruger after a headspace check.I have loaded shorter than SAAMI specs for my Military stuff only to find the longer cartridge works better less wobble they say in the throat area.


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## Wildcat (May 17, 2015)

Hi Kev. Yep heavy barrel and double row magazine. Like I said before, the gunsite scout will be my next rifle. I handled one at the gun shop the other week and was surprised at how light it was! Nice looking beast too


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## GrauGeist (May 17, 2015)

Wildcat said:


> Anyone can own a gun here, you just need a valid reason ie sports shooting. Depending on the type of license you hold, restricts the type of weapons you are able to own. I hold a Cat A B firearms license which allows me to own rimfire, centre fire rifles and shotguns. I can not buy a handgun or semi auto weapon.
> See here for more info Getting a License


Interesting that a person can own a rifle, which has far more hitting power at range, than a handgun.

And interestingly enough, I was shown how to operate a bolt-action Mauser by a former SS Panzergrenadier and he could work that K98 bolt action nearly as fast as a semi-automatic and with exceptionally accurate results.



DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Interesting did not know that. All the propaganda machines here spew about how weapons are banned everywhere else in the world (including Australia).


According to the media, my S&W 9mm is more dangerous sitting locked away in the cabinet than idiots running loose in London or in Chinese elementary schools armed with knives...


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## mikewint (Jun 1, 2015)

Kevin, been in Nevernever Land so I missed your scout post. Very nice, as I recall a bolt-action based on the Mauser. Only had one bolt-action, the SMLE as I prefer semis or lever-action. The Scout looks a bit like the Mini-30 (Post #1258 which is an almost .308 just a shorter cartrige and semi-auto.


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## GrauGeist (Jun 11, 2015)

Hey Mike!! Great to see ya' back, buddy!

The ol' homestead was kind of quiet without you around! 

I went by the gunshop today to have another look at the Springfield .45 SA pistol and the guys there (known them for quite a while) suggested a .45 that would be closer to my liking (since I am a die-hard Colt fan).

It's the Rock Island Armory 1911 .45 ACP

There's a few versions, starting with the 1911A1 GI, which is a dedicated copy of the issued Colt. However, I was eyeballing the next step up, which is identical, except a shorter hammer and an extended beavertail (that's handy for preventing loss of skin if the slide grabs that fleshy part between the thumb and forefinger).

Anyway, long story short, I bought the dang thing on the spot for $550.00 out the door and I'll be picking it up on the 21st. At that point in time, I'll be forthcoming with pics and more details.

It's gonna be like freakin' Christmas around here!


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## mikewint (Jun 11, 2015)

Thanks Dave, much appreciated. Can't say my head is entirely straight, or ever will be for that matter. My .45 is Springfield's XDm with its double stack mag, match grade trigger and barrel and that replaceable backstrap to size it to your hand. Nothing whatsoever against the Colt it's just that name brand price hike.
I've picked up two new ones myself. Got my Henry Golden Boy in .17 HMR. What a neat little flat shooting hard hitting little cartrige. Almost instantly fragments so no worries about ricochets.
About 3mo ago picked up a .308 semi-auto. Company is PTR (Precision Target Rifle) which bought out the plans and tooling for HK's old G3. They call it the PTR-91. Roller-block action and the old-fashioned WOOD forearm and butt-stock.
Looking at Ruger's new SP-101 chambered for the new .327 cartrige. Supposed to hit harder than a .357 magnum. Nice looking gun but lousy grip on it. Charter arms also makes its version


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 12, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> Hey Mike!! Great to see ya' back, buddy!
> 
> The ol' homestead was kind of quiet without you around!
> 
> ...



Good buy. They are made just 20 minutes down the road here.

I will prob pick one up soon as well.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 12, 2015)

mikewint said:


> Thanks Dave, much appreciated. Can't say my head is entirely straight, or ever will be for that matter. My .45 is Springfield's XDm with its double stack mag, match grade trigger and barrel and that replaceable backstrap to size it to your hand. Nothing whatsoever against the Colt it's just that name brand price hike.
> I've picked up two new ones myself. Got my Henry Golden Boy in .17 HMR. What a neat little flat shooting hard hitting little cartrige. Almost instantly fragments so no worries about ricochets.
> About 3mo ago picked up a .308 semi-auto. Company is PTR (Precision Target Rifle) which bought out the plans and tooling for HK's old G3. They call it the PTR-91. Roller-block action and the old-fashioned WOOD forearm and butt-stock.
> Looking at Ruger's new SP-101 chambered for the new .327 cartrige. Supposed to hit harder than a .357 magnum. Nice looking gun but lousy grip on it. Charter arms also makes its version



I have a Springfield XD .45 as well. Pics on page 136.


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## Torch (Jun 12, 2015)

PTR-91s are a good buy,nice guns. As far as 1911's they are the Harley's of the gun world, there is so much you can do to them to personalize it it's ridiculous,most of the stuff you can do yourself thou I would leave the trigger work to a smith.


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## mikewint (Jun 12, 2015)

That they are, excellent firearms without a doubt, no question. My XDm came with a adjustable grip, match trigger, match barrel, two 13-round clips, a clip loader, and belt clip holder for a lot less than a basic 1911 Colt. My XDm is post #633


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## GrauGeist (Jun 24, 2015)

Ok...picked my 1911A1 up yesterday!

I must say, nothing brightens up a Monday like a new sidearm! 

Anyway, I'll say that I am really pleased with it. I feel that the decision to get the Tactical over the base model (GI) was a good move. The GI model is a faithful copy of the Colt and for a few bucks extra, the Tactical has the shortened hammer and a nice beavertail (ever lose a chunk of skin when the slide's action caught it during recoil?) and gnurling on the back of the handgrip frame. Plus the trigger comes Smithed as a factory feature and has an extremely sweet feel to it.

It also comes with an 8-round magazine and a pair of rubberized grips although the wood grips are attractive. I'll be putting my custom wood grips on it, that were made for the 1911A1 I used to own ages ago...they are Purpleheart Mahogany and form-fitted to my hand.

Anyway, as promised...gun-p0rn!!

The box-O-fun






The ol' Slabsides by itself





And here it's shown with it's 8-round magazine. Notice I have placed my Colt 7-round magazine alongside for comparison. By the way, any parts or accessories that will fit on a Colt 1911A1 will fit on this. From the Colt .22 LR conversion, right down to the grips and magazine.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 24, 2015)

Good buy. Really nice.

I am in the process of buying an AR-15 at the moment.

After that I have to get my wife a handgun, before she will let me buy anything else. Will be either a Springfield or Rock Island 1911 though.


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## GrauGeist (Jun 25, 2015)

The Springfield is really nice, there's no question. However, for $850 (+/-), I couldn't see the advantage over the Rock Island...

Some people were suggesting a Kimber, but in my opinion, over-rated and over priced.

Bottom line, I am extremely satisfied with my Rock Island.


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## Wildcat (Jun 25, 2015)

Very cool!


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## javlin (Jun 27, 2015)

mikewint said:


> Kevin, been in Nevernever Land so I missed your scout post. Very nice, as I recall a bolt-action based on the Mauser. Only had one bolt-action, the SMLE as I prefer semis or lever-action. The Scout looks a bit like the Mini-30 (Post #1258 which is an almost .308 just a shorter cartrige and semi-auto.



That's me to Mike I like semi's but something about a bolt with a ten round mag out the bottom  Now my next grab before summer is over is a BM 59 clone.I had the real macoy back in 07 but cut it loose and now they go for r 2x what I sold it for;so the clone : Purchase Refurbished Rifle And M1 Garand ? Garand Guy

Mike checked out those PTR's nice rig could definitely go for one of those in wood 

Some pics of the BM 59 I cut loose in 2007 ...


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## javlin (Jun 27, 2015)

GrauGeist said:


> Ok...picked my 1911A1 up yesterday!
> 
> I must say, nothing brightens up a Monday like a new sidearm!



Nice piece my choice was the Rock or the SF 1911 WWII issue went the SF @$500 had about 50rds threw it normally new @$600

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## Bucksnort101 (Jul 23, 2015)

Well after several "I'm gonna buy one - I'm not gonna buy one" conversations to myself I finally broke down and bought a new M1911 from an on-line gun auction site last night.
Was deliberating between a Ruger SR1911 Commander and a full size Remington R1 Enhanced. Both review well, but decided for the price difference between the two I went for the Ruger. Will not have it in my grubby little hands for a week or so, but this is what it should look like.

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## Torch (Jul 23, 2015)

Nice, have heard nothing but good things from Rugers 1911s


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## GrauGeist (Jul 23, 2015)

Pretty sharp addition, Buck!


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## dobbie (Jul 23, 2015)




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## javlin (Jul 24, 2015)

Nice Colt how does she shoot?The best .45 I ever shot(friends) was a Kimber made a nice group.


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## Torch (Jul 24, 2015)

Some toys


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## Bucksnort101 (Jul 24, 2015)

Nice collection.
Just got the Tracking number for mine. Should be in my FFL holders hands early next week, and then in mine soon afterwards. Then it's tearing it down, giving it a good cleaning and inspection (I never shoot a new gun without cleaning and looking it over first), then off to shoot it next weekend most likely.
I've already got a few changes that will be made, like an ambidexterous thumb safety (being a lefty this is a must for a 1911). Probably replace all the black hardware with stainless at some point down the road as well.


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## Torch (Jul 24, 2015)

Get yourself a Brownells catalog,,,You will be in 1911 heaven...


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## Bucksnort101 (Jul 24, 2015)

Torch said:


> Get yourself a Brownells catalog,,,You will be in 1911 heaven...



Funny you should mention that, I was just on the Brownell's web-site last night and ordered the newest 1911 Catalog.
Was lokoing to get and Ed Brown and a Wilson Combat catalog also, but it looks like they are strictly on-line now. I think Brownells carries most of their stuff anyhow.


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## Torch (Jul 24, 2015)

That 1911 is an Ed Brown Special Forces model, the Beretta 92FS has many Wilson parts to it.


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## javlin (Jul 29, 2015)

You see the WH Tompson,M1a,Garand(1956),03,BYF44(85%match #),G43( matching #.),FN49 (Argentine Navy),VZ24 and the STG44(replica.22) and the my baby Inland 44.The Apienne BM59 should hopefully be in my hands in about 6wks.I also replaced the flash suppressor on the Scout,got 240rds Austrian .308 and another 400 cases of .308 ready to go.I am about to close in on 9K in ammo in various calipers with about 6k in .308.

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## javlin (Aug 18, 2015)

Well I walked away from the BM59 for the time being thinking more along the lines of an investment.I think it will pan out in the long run.The 1909 Argentine Mauser is coveted as one of the premiere Mauser's coming out of SA.The rifle was marked quite high but reasonable for it's condition and got it for $600 less then the asking price.I bought it at the local GS but it had originated from an auction.


Argentine 7.65X53mm w/29.5" bbl.,blue/ bright finish,walnut stock.This an excellent example of a pre-war Mauser contract rifle manufactured for Argentina.These are marked on top of the receiver ring with the large Argentina Crest and the left side of the receiver is marked "MAUSER MODELO/ ARGENTINO 1909" and the receiver side wall is marked "DEUTSCHE WAFFEN UND/MUNTIONSFABRIKEN,BERLIN".The right side of the chamber is marked with the serial number and a proof mark.The tangent rear sight graduates to 2000 meters and the top of the slide has a small "anchor"proof which may indicate that it belonged to the Argentine Navy.It has a bright polished receiver,bolt and forend/bayonet lug with the remaining parts blue.Mounted with a full one piece nicely figured walnut pistol grip stock and handguard stamped with the matching serial number on the right side at the receiver ,oval proof on the right rear and a shield with "AG"in the center of the grip.Complete with a correct cleaning rod numbered to the rifle.Complete with a muzzle/front sight cover number to the rifle.All visible numbers match.
CONDITION:Excellent with 97% blue finish remaining on the barrel.There is an area behind the front barrel band that is thinning and there is some pin prick type pitting on the forward portion.The bayonet lug/forend has a smooth brown patina.The remaining blue finish parts retain 98% original finish with a few minor scratches on the floor plate.The receiver and bolt handle are beginning to turn gray in areas.The bore is clean/bright.The stock is excellent with a few minor dings/scratches.The markings are crisp and clear.The action is excellent.

From the auction slip.

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## Torch (Aug 18, 2015)

Very nice......

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Aug 18, 2015)

Very nice!

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## mikewint (Aug 19, 2015)

Kevin, fantastic condition. I'd say you got a real buy there


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## javlin (Aug 20, 2015)

mikewint said:


> Kevin, fantastic condition. I'd say you got a real buy there



Thanks Guys  Mike I saw one up for sale @ $1595 was maybe 70-75% of this one and I recognized the seller and he is always alittle on the high side meaning maybe it was a $1300-1400 rifle really.I p/u this one for $1195 and it's @ 95%+ rating so I am already ahead of the game.I buy 40rds for this one shoot 5rds and a closet Queen it becomes much like the other three matching number rifles I have.The quest continues for more but time to start saving again spent 2K plus on rifles this year time to quit.


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## mikewint (Aug 20, 2015)

Boy do I hear you! After the .17 Golden Boy, PTR-91 7.62, and .22 pellet rifle (for plinking squirrels) plus ammo for all the guns my budget is also shot. But that FN 5.7 won't stop calling me


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## Torch (Nov 4, 2015)

My dad just gave me his Browning Hi Power,Belgian made dated 1969, very good condition except by the serrations there's a touch of rust. Will try to clean it up then put different sights on it. Always wanted one and it stays in the family.

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## CharlesBronson (Nov 4, 2015)

javlin said:


> Well I walked away from the BM59 for the time being thinking more along the lines of an investment.I think it will pan out in the long run.The 1909 Argentine Mauser is coveted as one of the premiere Mauser's coming out of SA.The rifle was marked quite high but reasonable for it's condition and got it for $600 less then the asking price.I bought it at the local GS but it had originated from an auction.
> 
> 
> Argentine 7.65X53mm w/29.5" bbl.,blue/ bright finish,walnut stock.This an excellent example of a pre-war Mauser contract rifle manufactured for Argentina.These are marked on top of the receiver ring with the large Argentina Crest and the left side of the receiver is marked "MAUSER MODELO/ ARGENTINO 1909" and the receiver side wall is marked "DEUTSCHE WAFFEN UND/MUNTIONSFABRIKEN,BERLIN".The right side of the chamber is marked with the serial number and a proof mark.The tangent rear sight graduates to 2000 meters and the top of the slide has a small "anchor"proof which may indicate that it belonged to the Argentine Navy.It has a bright polished receiver,bolt and forend/bayonet lug with the remaining parts blue.Mounted with a full one piece nicely figured walnut pistol grip stock and handguard stamped with the matching serial number on the right side at the receiver ,oval proof on the right rear and a shield with "AG"in the center of the grip.Complete with a correct cleaning rod numbered to the rifle.Complete with a muzzle/front sight cover number to the rifle.All visible numbers match.
> ...



Impressive state, inmaculate condition, probably never used, the army bought 210.000 of that model in 1909-1914, more rifles than soldiers !


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## Caspian Sea Monster (Nov 5, 2015)

Oh, what the heck. I'll bite.

Guns what I own:

• S&W Model 36-1 revolver, .38 Special, which is like a Chief's Special but with a 3" instead of 2" barrel and a square-butt grip

• Ruger LCP pistol, .380 ACP

• Kahr CW9 pistol, 9x19mm

• Beretta Model 71 Jaguar pistol, .22LR

• Uberti Model 1866 Yellowboy carbine, .38 Special

• Ruger 10/22 rifle, .22LR

• Mossberg Model 341 rifle, .22LR, bolt-action with a box magazine and a 24" barrel

• Izhevsk Vintovka Mosina three-line rifle Model 91/30, 7.62x54R, made in 1943, ran hard and put away wet before refurbishment at a Ukrainian arsenal

• Ithaca Model 49, .22LR, tilting-block single shot kinda like a Martini action but with an external hammer and dressed up to look like a miniature Winchester Model 94 - this was my first gun, given to me when I was 14

• Ithaca Model 37 Deerslayer Police Special, 12ga x 2.75", the old police model with an improved-cylinder choke, 20" barrel, 7-round magazine, and rifle sights

• Zhong Zhou Machine Works (by way of Century) JW-2000 shotgun, 12ga x 3" side-by-side with dog-ear hammers, and I'm not one to automatically dismiss Chinese engineering out-of-hand but _man_ is this thing a piece of junk

And that's not counting the two percussion rifles (.45 and .50 caliber), two rifled flintlock pistols (.44 and .45 caliber), two Colt-pattern percussion revolvers (a real Colt .36 and a Uberti .44), the two pre-1899 top-break pocket revolvers (one Iver Johnson, one H&R, both .32 cal), and the Orion 12ga "distress signaling device".

Guns what have graced my presence but have sadly long since parted ways:

• NORINCO Type 56 (Chinese SKS), 7.62x39mm, military surplus, built 1977 - this was my first centerfire rifle

• ROF Fazakerley Enfield Number 4 Mk.I, .303 British, bubba'd (not by me) with an L42A1 style stock

• ROF Fazakerley Enfield Number 4 Mk.II, .303 British, again bubba'd (again not by me) with an L42A1 style stock - I know this type of modification is frowned upon but I actually bought both these rifles specifically _because_ they had been modded, as I prefer the handling qualities of the shorter forend

• Gewehrfabrik Erfurt Model 98A small-ring Mauser (at least I think that's what it was), 6.5x57mm (no that is not a typo), a military model converted by the factory into a hunting rifle with light-weight profile barrel and double set trigger, and at some point thereafter fitted with a Weaver K4 60B scope; the rifle came with sizing/loading dies since 6.5x57mm is strictly a roll-your-own-ammo deal, made from 7x57mm Spanish Mauser brass

• Waffenfabrik Bern K31 carbine, 7.5x55mm Swiss

• H&K Model HK770 rifle, .308 Winchester, a semiauto hunting rifle based on their standard roller-delayed blowback system but with two-piece billet receiver, single-piece walnut stock, and 3-round detachable magazine; without a doubt the most unnecessarily complicated and dirtiest-running rifle I've ever used let alone owned

• a custom M4 carbine type thing assembled by myself, 5.56x45mm NATO; S&W lower receiver, Magpul MOE carbine stock on a mil-spec 6-position DSA tube, H3 recoil buffer, Bravo Company complete upper with 16" SOCOM-profile barrel, MOE handguards, a standard Colt military-issue A4 detachable carry handle, and generally used with 20-round magazines (both 2nd-gen PMAGs and late-70s Colt USGI) because I liked the way the rifle handled better with them as opposed to 30-rounders

• Remington Model 870 Tactical Magnum, 12ga x 3", a non-standard market-test model that predated the Remington 870 Tactical series; OD green finish, 20" cylinder-bore barrel, 7-round magazine via extension, Knoxx pistol-grip stock

• Izhevsk Baikal IZh-43 Bountyhunter II, 12ga x 2.75", hammerless side-by-side with 28.5" fixed-choke barrels, double triggers, and no recoil pad; simultaneously lighting off two 1oz slugs from that thing was fun, as in the kind of fun that leaves you black and blue and occasionally bleeding. And no, I'm not being sarcastic when I say it was fun. 

That's all I can remember off the top of my head. I might have forgotten a few.


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## Torch (Nov 6, 2015)

I had an HK 770 in a .308 a long time ago, never got it to shoot like I wanted,dented the crap out of the brass but it was a cool rifle...


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## Caspian Sea Monster (Nov 6, 2015)

Yeah, dents the crap out of the brass and launches it into low Earth orbit. All mechanically-delayed blowback guns are like that. It's one of the reasons I'm not overly fond of them, but it's kind of fun to watch.


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## bobbysocks (Nov 8, 2015)

the HK 91 ( and probably the 93 ) does the same thing...but for that you can ( or used to be able to ) buy a rubber buffer that snapped onto the ejection port that kept that from happening.


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## Chief2387 (Jan 3, 2016)

Took a First Shots Class at my local indoor gun range.

First Time shooting a gun. Smith Wesson M&P .22 Compact.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 3, 2016)

I need to get some shooting therapy in here shortly. Might head out to the range next weekend. Shoot the Beretta, XD45 and the Mauser.

Hopefully have the new AR-15 here in a few weeks.


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## GrauGeist (Jan 3, 2016)

Chief2387 said:


> Took a First Shots Class at my local indoor gun range.
> 
> First Time shooting a gun. Smith Wesson M&P .22 Compact.


Well done!


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## mikewint (Jan 3, 2016)

Bobby, I have a HK 91 and never thought it had a particularly harsh ejection. I don't reload so never paid much attention to the brass


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## javlin (Jan 3, 2016)

Chief2387 said:


> View attachment 308627
> 
> 
> Took a First Shots Class at my local indoor gun range.
> ...



Whats the distance on that?I P/U the STG 44 in 22LRHV I was impressed at the groups from 65-70 yds off the side of a tree.

Mike my G43 and FN49 like to kink that brass makes it tough on the longevity of reload .


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## bobbysocks (Jan 3, 2016)

mike...if you don't reload then it isn't an issue. I did reload for awhile so need the brass to be in as good of shape as possible. the 91 beats the snot out of brass. puts a healthy ding in the side...hence I bought the buffer. but I have never had an issue with my 91 or 94 eating any kind of ammo. I love those guns. I would like to get a Williams set trigger for my 91 someday.


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## Chief2387 (Jan 3, 2016)

Thanks guys. Like I said it was my first time.

I didn't ask the distance the target was, but it wasn't far. It was an indoor range. I think it was about 10 yrds maybe. I could've gotten tighter, but they only gave us 20 rounds.

It was standard class for those who've never shot a gun.

I have to say I liked the gun. Not to much kick in the .22. Eventually, I'd like to put a few rounds through my Ruger single six. I only have the .22mag cylinder though. But, for target shooting I think the ruger will be just the thing. Eventually, I'd like to get a Five-Seven.


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## javlin (Jan 3, 2016)

That's not bad Chief when I first saw MP I thought MP5 (rifle guy)Handguns for me are tough to get proficient at I have one SPfield 45 in the WWII configuration.


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## Chief2387 (Jan 4, 2016)

I think that's why my grandfather gave me the Ruger Single Six in .22 mag.

When I can find and afford the ammo I'd like to take that out.
But, that's difficult with going to school full time.

I think if you can get proficient enough with a pistol/revolver.
All the better for home defense since you can have a hand free if you need.

Of course that's my opinion.


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## bobbysocks (Jan 4, 2016)

I did the majority of my target shooting with a 22. ammo is cheaper and the mechanics are the same. if you cant hit it with a 22 you aren't going to do any better with a larger bore. once you tighten your hit radius then go for bigger stuff and see if recoil and flinch have any effect on you.


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## Chief2387 (Jan 4, 2016)

You also have to keep in mind some people are fit for different types of firearms.
Some people are fit for Pistols
some are Revolvers.
Then it's a question do you like single or double action?
Do you like have higher power or do you like accuracy and precision?

I think ultimately I'll go the revolver route. It's early though.

I agree with you bobby socks. .22 is a great round. Not to much kick. Easier to keep on target. Not to pricey. Great for experimenting. 

I think the neatest thing I've seen in .22 was a belt fed Machine gun. Cloth belt. I saw it at Cabela's one time when I was there.


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## bobbysocks (Jan 4, 2016)

American arms (?) made an AR 180 what looked kind of like a Thompson with a lewis gun type drum on top. back in the "good ole days" when you could get a class 2 manufacturer to make one full auto a lot of these were converted. 22s are always prone to jams and the AR 180 was no exception but it was a hell of a lot of fun to rip off a 100 round drum with one of these. revolver vs pistol still depends for me on the maker. I do not like smith pistols. they do not feel good in my hand....I love their revolvers. I love colt autos but not their revolvers. I love just about every ruger handgun. I like double action because I can shoot both ways as a SA or DA....but would get the trigger worked on if it was too heavy of a pull.


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## mikewint (Jan 4, 2016)

Just to weigh in. .22mag in an awesome round especially from a pistol. It sounds like a cannon and the muzzle flash is 3ft in diameter. The Keltec PMR-30 .22WMR is a semiautomatic with a 30 round clip and a Pic-rail for laser or flashlight. FN's FIVE-seven is also a very nice handgun but the ammo is expensive and not easy to find.
Revolvers are simple, easy, and rarely jam BUT, in general only 6 rounds. Ruger's SP101 in .32mag is a very potent weapon and the .32mag is supposed to have the same impact as the .357. In addition you can shoot plain .32 and .32Long.
There is another thread on "Experience with Weapons" that covers this as well. Now as to "Home Defense", most any homebound situation is going to be an "across a room" confrontation with adrenaline pumping. I maintain that in that scenario a shotgun is hard to beat. While most insist on 12ga. my preference is Mossberg's SA-20 semi-auto in 20ga. The 20ga shell delivers the impact of 2 .44mag rounds without the danger of shooting through several walls. The gun is light, easy to maneuver, and has less recoil than the 12ga. ideal for "in the house".
Bobby, we depart on handguns. I love my Python in .357 and my "Custer Colt" SAA in the old .45Long. I personally find DA distracting and have never fired my Python in DA mode. Besides SA slows you down and makes you think and aim before shooting. The semi-autos promote the "spray and pray" policy


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## bobbysocks (Jan 4, 2016)

I have small hands so some guns I cant bring to battery comfortably. i am not much of a revolver man....the majority of what I have are semi auto pistols. in them I use a dutch mix of glazer safety slugs and HP. the glazers are pre-fragmented and will go through one sheet of dry wall but not exit through the other...likewise it will enter a gallon jug of water and not exit but will expand tremendously! I like that for home defense. what I like about a pistol over a shotgun is more rounds and the ability to reload quicker. I am not going to spray and pray as I will not go down stairs and look for who is in my house. I will position myself with cover at a choke point, like a hallway, after I have thrown a set of keys outside for the cops to use to get in. I will let the law do what they are supposed to do ( if they get there in time ) and I will do what I have to do to not become a victim.


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## Torch (Jan 4, 2016)

I just picked up a Ruger Precision Rifle in a .308, thru a Zeiss 6.5-20x50 on it and now all I need is some time and oh yeah have a Sig p229 on the way. I still would love to have a Python and a P38 and or Luger. Maybe on day.


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## bobbysocks (Jan 4, 2016)

p38s are sweet. if you buy one spend the extra $$ to get matching serial numbers. back in the late 80s early 90s they supposedly found barrels of 08 ( luger ) and 38 parts in a long forgotten warehouse, a tunnel, whatever which they assembled into working firearms and started flooding the market with them. they didn't have the usual finish but were phosphate coated ( like an old AR 15 ) iirc and were a hodge podge of serial numbers. some may have the eagle with swastika and some not. they only were able to make so many and so the supply ran out within a year or so. but those "mutts" are still floating around out there. I kick myself for not buying one of those 08s. about the same time someone found a bunch of mauser broomhandles in china or somewhere and was selling those cheap too. you could get the long or short barreled version... I shoulda pounced on one of those too.....errrr!


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## javlin (Jan 4, 2016)

I remember the P38's coming in but also some that were from existing stock of some PDs that were being decommissioned with holster for $249.00 they were like 60s-70s production.


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## GrauGeist (Jan 4, 2016)

bobbysocks said:


> ... about the same time someone found a bunch of mauser broomhandles in china or somewhere and was selling those cheap too. you could get the long or short barreled version... I shoulda pounced on one of those too.....errrr!


My Grandfather had a "red 9" C96 (M1916) and my family members lost track of it after he passed away (shortly before I was born).

I kept hoping it would pop up, as I have gotten several other arms of his over the years, but no such luck, I'm afraid.

I had many opportunities over the years to pick up a standard C96 or a "red 9", but passed them by figuring one day, I'd have my Grandfathers. Now, I kick myself in the ass for waiting...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 5, 2016)

Been warned before to not bring politics into this thread or forum.

Posts 1435 on up...

Thanks guys. It was a good thread.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 13, 2016)

I have reopened this thread for discussion.

I have also removed the posts that got it closed in the first place. Do not let this thread be closed again for dabling into politics. 

You all know there is a strict no politics rule on this forum. The reason being, it always gets out of hand and people start making personal insults. We mods grew tired of asking people to stop with the insults, just to be ignored.

We mods stand unified on this.

Talk guns all you want. Keep the politics out of it.

If politics comes back into this again, the thread will be closed permanently, and the offenders will get some time off. Please don't ruin it, we mods don't enjoy having to do that.

Thanks for your cooperation, and firearm away...

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## javlin (May 13, 2016)

Thks Chris wish I had a pic of a new acquisition but times have been tight.I almost get there and something comes up"called life"

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 13, 2016)

I got my new AR-15 in the time this thread was closed. Had it since February, but not had a chance to shoot it yet. Bought a nice red dot scope sight (with Night Vision) from a friend of mine. Still need to zero in.



javlin said:


> Thks Chris wish I had a pic of a new acquisition but times have been tight.I almost get there and something comes up"called life"



I know how that is...


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## Airframes (May 13, 2016)

It's sometimes quite interesting reading what you guys own and shoot.
With the firearms laws as they are in the UK these days, anything more than an air weapon, or if you're lucky, a very basic rifle, is virtually impossible to own and use. Darned shame, as I spent most of my life from the age of 7 shooting and, until fairly recently, lecturing on infantry weapons a couple of times a month.
I recently sold my only remaining 'live' weapon, and that was only a Beretta CO2 pistol, as I could no longer squeeze the trigger due to the bl**dy arthritis, and now all I have left is the de-activated Type 56/1 shown below, which can be cocked and stripped, but will never fire again.


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## javlin (May 13, 2016)

Look's _Pretty Nice_ Terry.I have a want for the VZ58 which is quite abit different inside and has a forged receiver as opposed to the stamped steel.It's been probably three months since I have been shooting Chris and I think I kind of over did it for the old Man Joe that day(75yrs old) I think I shot for about three hours that day.The STG44(replica) was alot of fun that day could squeeze off 25rds in 10-15s and group it in 3-5"(40-50yds) standing leaning against a tree.I had to slow down the ammunition expenditure since it's near impossible to reload 22rim.It can be done read an article on it and really sounded like more of a pain than it's worth.A VZ58 pic...


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## Airframes (May 13, 2016)

Nice weapon, the VZ, as is the issue Valmet. My Chinese Type 56/1 is an early example, with the machined receiver, rather than pressed metal, and it really shows in the weight. Just a shame it's not 'live' !!


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## Torch (May 14, 2016)

Well thanks for getting this thread going again, since it was closed I picked up a SIG 716 Patrol,Thru a Steiner 1x5 red dot scope on it, Glock 26 Gen4 and a Karh CM9.


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## bobbysocks (May 15, 2016)

that is a nice 56...I should have bought a forged receiver ak when I had the chance.

22 can be reloaded a couple times IF you have the right tools ( I don't ). because you have to expand the rim where is gets crushed to ignite the powder it weakens the metal...so you can only trust is for a few reloads. but it is more of a pain than it worth...but you never know what the future holds ( price...availability...etc) in store so getting the kit to reload them may not be a bad idea.


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## tyrodtom (May 15, 2016)

My son in law got me a PSA PA-10, ( AR-10 ) lower kit for Christmas. I had to assemble every spring, pin, etc. myself.
I've since then bought a upper, and associated small parts, barrel, and gas tube, waiting for the bolt group and charging handle to get back into production so I can finish this rifle.

I think since I've assembled this myself, had to buy some special tools to do it, and made some myself also. I may do a few AR-15s and sell them.


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## javlin (May 16, 2016)

AR-10 is the weapon I would do in that platform or the 6.5.I saw somewhere an AR platform with wood now that might could get me excited.That is why my collection is pretty much Viet Nam back anything that has wood and the bigger caliber.


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## GrauGeist (May 16, 2016)

javlin said:


> AR-10 is the weapon I would do in that platform or the 6.5.I saw somewhere an AR platform with wood now that might could get me excited.That is why my collection is pretty much Viet Nam back anything that has wood and the bigger caliber.


There's a number of sources for wood furniture and I have to say it makes the AR-15 look outstanding.

If my AR weren't so well preserved, I would certainly consider doing it.

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## javlin (May 16, 2016)

That makes the girl totally acceptable in my book


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## GrauGeist (May 16, 2016)

Yes indeed! 

By the way, I thought I'd add something I have seen discussed about the wood forestock, however. I seems that many of the forestocks tend to split along the top.

I haven't heard if this problem has seen a workaround yet or not.


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## Torch (May 16, 2016)

The wood stock actually looks pretty good, she ain't bad either.


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## tyrodtom (May 16, 2016)

That wood forward stock may look good, but it would have to be a awfully thin piece of wood. It's still held on by the endcap at the front, and the delta ring at the back.
Then the shoulder stock has to be hollow at the back for the buffer tube, leaving only a small piece of wood for it to be attached to the lower receiver, I think the original fiber reinforced plastic might have served that purpose better.

I remember we all had doubts about that plastic in the Vietnam era, I'm sure someone busted one somewhere, but that happened with wooded stocks too.

When I was in Laos in 71 I saw a M-16 that a local Lao had hand carved a forward stock for his rifle out of a piece of teak, because he had no other option. A beautiful piece of work too.


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## Ronnie Radke (May 16, 2016)

Got a pair of complete WWII M2 .50 cal waist guns, one from a famous B-17 crash in England & the other from an 8th AF B-24 all in
amazing condition both in their respective waist gun cradles E-13 & E-12. Pretty spectacular when they are both mounted up with belts of 50 cal streaming out the side. I can easily spring a gib lifting those bad boys around......damn!

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## GrauGeist (May 16, 2016)

Ronnie Radke said:


> ...I can easily spring a gib lifting those bad boys around......damn!


Sure, considering they weigh about 83 pounds (38kg) clean...it's certainly a workout hefting one around!


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## Ronnie Radke (May 16, 2016)

I'm surprised those soulless Liberals in CA haven't taken all your guns already - no high capacity clips over 10 rounds blah, blah - whatever!


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## vikingBerserker (May 16, 2016)

I love the look of that AK47 (or is it the SKS47????  ) But it's been my experience that woman I am involved with that have guns scare me!


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## GrauGeist (May 16, 2016)

vikingBerserker said:


> I love the look of that AK47 (or is it the SKS47????  ) But it's been my experience that woman I am involved with that have guns scare me!


Are you referring to the gal in post 1446?


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## Glider (May 16, 2016)

I think I would take the chance.


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## mikewint (May 16, 2016)

Back in the History thread and Off Topic there were posts about the M16. I first saw one back in '63 and thought the little plastic thing looked like a BB-gun.
Bobby brought up the Mattel thing and Dave posted that Mattel did not make the M16. I moved my reply here for discussion

After the M14s, BARs, M1s, and M2 all wood stocked (which swelled in the heat and humidity) and .30cal, the little plastic .22 looked like a toy
Our Group was the first to receive the Colt 602s. While I agree that Mattel never made the ENTIRE rifle they did in fact make some of the plastic parts and initially the Mattel logo was stamped on the hand grip reinforcing the toy-image. The stamped logo was soon eliminated 
Colt factory reps SPECIFICALLY told us that the gun was such a precision-made weapon it never needed cleaning and there was therefore no cleaning kit. The eventual fouling lead to the many mis-fires and jams. Finally a cleaning kit and a comic book HOW-TO


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## bobbysocks (May 16, 2016)

that ( no need to clean ) I had heard as well. then I also heard of guys over there writing home asking for 3-in-1 oil and toothbrushes....or asking downright for a 22 rifle cleaning kit. the rumors running around the high schools ( heard by all the kids waiting to be drafted to go over to Congville ) was that the gun you will be issued will jam all the time....which isn't a quality you desire when faced with hopped up comnie orientals dressed in black pajamas...storming you in human wave attacks...who have tourniquets on their arms and legs so they don't bleed out before they get to you. there was so much bad info about what went on over there. later on in life when I became a gun dealer and learned more about military weapons I read where the rifle was designed to be used with rounds that used smokeless powder...which does burn cleaner. but the heads of the military declined using that ammo and went with standard ball powder instead. also there are 3 piston ringlike seals on the bolt that need to be positioned at 120 degree intervals. if lined up improperly the gas pressure will blow by and not work the bolt carrier like it should. early models also did not have a forward assist and the charging handle is free floating..so if a round didn't seat all the way in it could create a problem......with cleaning and proper ammo the gun worked as well as any other....I have an old non forward assist ar 15....


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## Torch (May 16, 2016)

Ronnie Radke said:


> Got a pair of complete WWII M2 .50 cal waist guns, one from a famous B-17 crash in England & the other from an 8th AF B-24 all in
> amazing condition both in their respective waist gun cradles E-13 & E-12. Pretty spectacular when they are both mounted up with belts of 50 cal streaming out the side. I can easily spring a gib lifting those bad boys around......damn!


Does not matter if there are no pics..


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## javlin (May 16, 2016)

Ronnie Radke said:


> I'm surprised those soulless Liberals in CA haven't taken all your guns already - no high capacity clips over 10 rounds blah, blah - whatever!


Got to keep the politics totally out of this thread it got closed down for about six months because of that issue.A pic sure would be a treat to which gun porn is allowed though

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## GrauGeist (May 16, 2016)

Yeah? You want gunporn?

Feast your eyes on this Turnbull TAR-10.







You're welcome.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 17, 2016)

One more time for our friend Ronnie...

I have reopened this thread for discussion.

I have also removed the posts that got it closed in the first place. Do not let this thread be closed again for dabling into politics.

You all know there is a strict no politics rule on this forum. The reason being, it always gets out of hand and people start making personal insults. We mods grew tired of asking people to stop with the insults, just to be ignored.

We mods stand unified on this.

Talk guns all you want. Keep the politics out of it.

If politics comes back into this again, the thread will be closed permanently, and the offenders will get some time off. Please don't ruin it, we mods don't enjoy having to do that.

Thanks for your cooperation, and firearm away...

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## tyrodtom (May 17, 2016)

That TAR-10 is just a very expensive toy, probably confined to the gun safe for 99.9% of it's existence...
Nobody would ever risk taking it to a firing range, you might put a scratch on it.


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## mikewint (May 17, 2016)

Bobby the big plus was the light weight for both the gun and ammo. I was also impressed by the "wounds" made by those little suckers as they yawed their way through tissue. One poor VC got hit in the hip and the round blew both his butt cheeks completely off.
The main problem (as I recall) was in the gas-tube which would either plug or burn out. I refused to carry one and managed to snag an Uzi from another sargent going back to the world. Think it was about '64 or so, after a number of improvements we were issued the CAR-15s which were almost a different gun.
The forward assists were a big help in seating cartridges that did not completely load and you quickly developed a pattern of slapping the mag, then charging, then slapping the forward.
Many of the sporting ARs now do not have the forward nor the ejection port cover.


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## bobbysocks (May 17, 2016)

oh yeah the weight difference between 200 rounds of 7.62 and 5.56 along with the weight difference between an M-14 and an 16. 7.62 full auto is hard to control unless you are on a bipod....5.56 is pretty manageable. I like the old A1. when I was selling guns I sold a guy a jazzed up AR 15 I built. he traded me his old A1 and some cash for it. I like the looks of the old triangle forestock....maybe its just nostalgia. but I really wanted the old a1 cos I had a lightning link. you drop that in and it becomes instant full auto only. the lowers on the newer models wont work with it....hence why I wanted that particular gun.


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## Ronnie Radke (May 17, 2016)

Hey Jav - yeah I got 3ft burned off my tail feathers, I am aware that I am an A-hole..........uncle Ted's a bad influence!
If you are a AAF warbird freak then I have some interesting stuff, right now we are fixing up a 50 cal wing gun from a P-47 Jug. Once I get back home I'll get some help to move them out & take some pictures.


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## javlin (May 17, 2016)

Ronnie Radke said:


> Hey Jav - yeah I got 3ft burned off my tail feathers, I am aware that I am an A-hole..........uncle Ted's a bad influence!
> If you are a AAF warbird freak then I have some interesting stuff, right now we are fixing up a 50 cal wing gun from a P-47 Jug. Once I get back home I'll get some help to move them out & take some pictures.



Sounds good can't be on this forum and not be into these old crates

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## Airframes (May 17, 2016)

I hope all this stuff is legally acquired, and not infringing on a 'war grave' site ?
It's nice to have the 'relics', as long as all due respect is paid, and understood, for those lost.

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## javlin (May 17, 2016)

I P/U this mag the other day $12.95 US and have some interesting facts and tidbits of rifles I have never seen or heard of


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## Ronnie Radke (May 18, 2016)

Airframes said:


> I hope all this stuff is legally acquired, and not infringing on a 'war grave' site ?
> It's nice to have the 'relics', as long as all due respect is paid, and understood, for those lost.



Could you be more specific - what's your point, I don't think I understand your question if this is directed at me?


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## Ronnie Radke (May 18, 2016)

Couple of .50 cals out of a B-17 chin turret we dug from a wreck a few years back


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 18, 2016)

Ronnie Radke said:


> Could you be more specific - what's your point, I don't think I understand your question if this is directed at me?



He is asking if the artifacts came from what is considered a war grave (i.e. shot down aircraft where the crew was still inside)? 

If so he does not agree with the taking of artifacts from the site.


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## Airframes (May 18, 2016)

Correct.
My comment, although specific to the posts by Ronnie, was a 'general' comment on the acquisition of _some_ relics from crash sites, and not intended as a 'stab' at Ronnie, or any other individual.
I've seen items from crash sites for sale, from various sources, where it was fairly evident that the seller(s) had more than likely got the items by less than legal means, bearing in mind the laws covering access to sites, and the removal of artefacts, at least in the UK.
Although it's nice to own a 'piece of history', and have the knowledge that the items concerned were used or handled by some courageous, often unknown serviceman back in WW2 ( I have a few small items myself,) this is only acceptable if the items concerned were obtained legally - not my words, but those of the relevant authorities concerned.
I actually have an 'open mind' about this - given that the items removed from a particular crash site are recovered in a sympathetic and honourable way, and are treated with any due reverence they deserve, then, in my view, that is acceptable, even if the site is a 'War Grave'. 
This may _not_ be in line with the guidelines and laws appertaining to said sites, and is purely how I feel about it.
However, there are people who will 'raid' a site, and remove items purely for profit, when it's the innocent _buyer_ of these items who will then attract the negative aspects of recovering or owning such items.
My comment regarding the collection owned by Ronnie was aimed purely at the method and legal aspects of how the items were obtained, and was not intended as a 'stab' or derogatory comment on the ownership of these items which, in this instance, appears to be honourable and honest.


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## GrauGeist (May 18, 2016)

Well said, Terry.

To add a little to that, when a crash site is discovered, it is also important to identify the wreck. This has several important aspects, firstly, it can help aid in determining the fate of the pilot/crew: KIA, MIA, POW, etc.

It can also fill holes in the war records, for example: luftwaffe pilot claimed so and so B-17 last seen over such and such town, no crash site located, B-17 never recovered, fate of crew unknown.


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## mikewint (May 18, 2016)

Here in the US any WWII sites on land I would assume have been removed long ago unless in some remote unknown wilderness area or deep under water. The only concern fed/state would have (I assume) would be toward live ordnance or a machine gun restorable to working condition. Back in the late '50s surplus WWII guns were for sale for under $10. "Deactivated" souvenir guns like .45 Thompsons were about $25. Deactivation consisted of pouring lead into the breech and barrel. We bought a new barrel and spent a month or so picking the soft lead out of the breech. With just a bit of effort...a working Thompson


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## GrauGeist (May 18, 2016)

There's an enormous amount of crash sites in North America that haven't been found yet.

There's hundreds of wrecks in the Sierra mountains alone, occasionally one is discovered, like the B-25 that was lost in a snowstorm and it's crew's remains were recently recovered from a glacier.


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## javlin (May 18, 2016)

Ronnie Radke said:


> Couple of .50 cals out of a B-17 chin turret we dug from a wreck a few years back
> View attachment 343727



Those will look good cleaned up

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## GrauGeist (May 19, 2016)

Mom is going through my Stepdad's things and came across a Geko Caribiner model 1919 .22 cal. and she asked me if I wanted it.

Does a bear sh!t in the woods?


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## mikewint (May 19, 2016)

That's fantastic Dave. Looks something like my first single shot .22 but I can't remember the make any more. Was about 1952 or so. Was an Xmas present from Dad. Mom had a cow!! Shot mostly Shorts as they were cheap


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## at6 (May 22, 2016)

No new fire arms for me. Still love the Oskar Debertshauser 22 I was given for my 12th birthday. I still fire it every now and then even though it is from 1941 to 1945 as far as manufacture date.


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## bobbysocks (May 22, 2016)

Ronnie...do check the laws about recovered machineguns. I was a firearms dealer for 25+ years and had the tax stamp to sell fully automatic weapons. I never got into recovering them nor was it ever addressed at any seminar I went to. you need to see how the government agency that deals with firearms classifies these. they are cool but could be worth $10,000.00 in fines and 10 years in jail each! that is here in the US. I am going to say probably a class 2 manufacturer or someone like that will have to certify the weapons "unserviceable".


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## javlin (May 22, 2016)

at6 said:


> No new fire arms for me. Still love the Oskar Debertshauser 22 I was given for my 12th birthday. I still fire it every now and then even though it is from 1941 to 1945 as far as manufacture date.


Everytime I get close and the money almost there something comes up

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## GrauGeist (Jun 9, 2016)

Has anyone seen these things?


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## Ronnie Radke (Jun 9, 2016)

Thanks for the feedback regarding my post, I just wanted to get factual & share my observations, experience & positivity in relation to this.

Aviation archaeology & relic gun ownership can be a little controversial with those who have little experience, who've never taken part & have even less understanding, but working only on what small amount of knowledge they hold regarding this - commonly known as contempt before prior investigation & fanciful pre-judging an individual(s) who takes part in this fascinating & historically valuable past time. Sadly many have a distorted image of where we just show up on a corn field with a backhoe & go nuts tearing up the land like a bunch of crack smoking rabid racoons looking for treasure & filling up trucks with booty while salivating in some psychotic aroused state with total disregard for humanity.This couldn't be further from reality & this kind of self focussed small mindedness is not unique & it's a classic negative & destructive human condition that a psychology book can explain way better than me. It is what it is.

It is however fascinating to witness the change of attitude when we invite these characters to get involved & see the reality, many quickly became hooked & wrote magazine articles, books, blogs, brought in the media to herald the historically significant finds, some went further & got memorials built at the sites, restored original airbase buildings & used recovered parts to create 'living memorials' for the surviving families & a whole host of other projects which made certain the stories behind of each & every gallant airman lost in the fight for our freedom & liberty was not forever confined to historical anonymity, so ensuring that they perpetually lived on in the minds of future generations by using that 'bridge to the past' we call aviation archaeology.

Regretably every hobby shares the same problems as we experience, people want to come wreck hunting to 'own' something, they are not interested in the humanity or the historic importance of a site, for them owning some cool part like a prop blabe, control yoke, gun, personal effects - whatever will give them a higher social status among their peers. These types have somekind of personality defect, by wanting to obsessively collect prize parts, in their minds it elevates their importance, validates them as some kind of 'big wheel' & adds inches to their manhood. It's a big issue & has plauged many wreck hunting groups, this jealousy & rampaging self centered malignency has been the death of many well organized & motivated outfits who made some incredible contributions to aviation history.

Back to the guns - We have to consider the average heavy bomber had 12 x .50 cals & the P-51/47/38 having up to 8 it's not unusual to recover half of them from a wreck site, multiply that by the number of heavy bomber & fighter wrecks we have unearthed in a 30 year period will give some understanding that owning a few isn't a big deal. Museums have more than they want already found years back in the infancy of wreck hunting. It's good to have an open mind & stop to reflect, that not every airplane which went down had casualties - many crews hit the silk before the plane met the dirt.

Another consideration - Not all the guns we find have come from crashed airplanes - many have come from dumps that the airforce used to dispose with end of life/surplus stock once hostilities ended in the ETO, so again just because a relic firearm or other part is owned doesn't necessarily mean someone 'plundered' it from a 'war grave'. That said I have seen it happen & heard about it, its a practice I find abhorrent, laws are only observed by the law abiding & those who act out of law without good reason do nothing to promote all the good work we & all other wreck hunters worldwide have done in preserving this important era of our shared history.

Finally I also wanted to assure those reading this that all my guns are de-milled, legally owned & sourced for those who may express some alarm. The only way they will kill someone now is if I dropped them off a tall building & someone was stupid enough to want to catch it.

That's my story & I'm getting down off my tree stump before I get sunburn - peace out!


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## Ronnie Radke (Jun 9, 2016)

Here's a .50 cal that was recovered from a WWII 8th Air Force dump - its a little corroded but a nice find all the same.


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## bobbysocks (Jun 12, 2016)

yeah I have seen those slugs before. wicked huh? not sure if you could use them for hunting or if you would even want to. some states do not allow HP rifles to hunt deer. ohio is like that you have to use a shotgun....


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## GrauGeist (Jun 12, 2016)

The Hexolit 32 is actually legal for hunting.

There's a variety of shotgun slugs available for hunting, the legality mostly revolving around lead content and/or rifled versus smoothbore.


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## bobbysocks (Jun 13, 2016)

there are several sabot rounds and expanding slugs for hunting. shotgun hunting is big around here. that round above I am sure would bring down a deer...its the condition of the meat that is going to be a concern. the high expansion rate may do too much damage. if I was in bear country I sure would want one in the chamber....


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## GrauGeist (Jun 13, 2016)

Yeah, I can see that round being far better for close-quarter home defense, but worthless for hunting.

It's sort of like using a small tree chipper and won't do the meat much good...


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## mikewint (Jun 13, 2016)

These are copper. Expansion 2.5in

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## Airframes (Jun 13, 2016)

Good post Ronnie, and good to see you and your colleagues are among the 'official' groups - I have come across some people who would fall into the groups you have mentioned, and have little or no time for them.
I spent fourteen years lecturing on small arms, and at least one lecture would have some 'Anorak' who was only interested in owning a particular weapon for just the reasons you have described !


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## GrauGeist (Jun 13, 2016)

Ronnie Radke said:


> Here's a .50 cal that was recovered from a WWII 8th Air Force dump - its a little corroded but a nice find all the same.
> View attachment 345697


I'm sitting here looking at that M2 and it occurs to me that it would make a badass upright floor lamp!

Perhaps one of the heaviest floor lamps on record, but still badass 

(Cleaned up, of course!)


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## javlin (Jun 16, 2016)

Well I forced this to happen I saw as maybe a once in a lifetime event.The rifle should show up next week.From the auction.....

From the vault of renowned gunsmith & author, Jerry Kuhnhausen. Over 350 shop, factory customs & one-of-a-kinds firearms, to be sold with NO RESERVES OR MINIMUMS.


Excellent condition - rifle - 18" rnd, Underwood dated 8-43 barrel - New commercial figured and extra nice dark grain walnut M1 type stock & Walnut handguard; about 100%; Opening for sling threading in butt along with sling swivel; Fastened with M1 type steel butt plate - Parkerized, "as-new" Parkerized finish about 100% - Markings: Crisp Springfield Armory receiver markings - Sights: Front shielded blade; Type Il rear - "as-new", Springfield Armory Inc. commercial receiver with an "as-new" Underwood 8-43 marked G.I. barrel. M2 type bolt. M1 type operating slide. All components other than the Springfield receiver and stock are U.S.G.I. New, "as-new" and looks better than issue. Sling, oiler, and 15 shot Gl magazine included in Mossy Oak soft carry case. - Yr. Mfg.: 1960s+ - Est. 700 - 900 - SN: SC12917 - FFL - Jerry Kuhnhausen Collection - 9500

Serial Numbers

The forged steel receiver sold 1993-1997 has a 5 digit serial number starting at 10,000, all preceded by the letters SC. The lowest serial number observed to date is SC10045 which was purchased direct from Springfield Armory, Inc. in July 1997. The highest observed to date has been SC12971.

David Reese related the total quantity manufactured by Lewis Machine & Tool Co. for Springfield was 3000.

Springfield Armory

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## javlin (Jun 21, 2016)

My New and I mean this fella was never fired and I am afraid to say that it shall remain"a safe Queen".I will post pics later in the sunshine got to keep it hidden from the wife now

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## Wildcat (Jun 21, 2016)

Real nice Kev, I would love to own an M1.


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## bobbysocks (Jun 21, 2016)

that is another gun I should have got cheap when I had the chance...congrats.


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## javlin (Jul 21, 2016)

Some outdoor pics of the rifle

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## javlin (Aug 9, 2016)

latest acquisition should be in the this week

(C) Venezuelan FN Mauser Model... Auctions Online | Proxibid

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## javlin (Aug 9, 2016)

Thanks Chris you might be interested in this auction WWII WAFFEN SS 1943 PRIVATE EN... Auctions Online | Proxibid not exactly my gig but I am watching a WWII Army Corp uniform if I can get it cheap I will and send it to my son.My father was a radio operator with a training squadron 92BG in England and the B-17 is one of his favorites but my guess is the Falcon he works on now may be taking over


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## javlin (Aug 23, 2016)

My New Venezuelan Mauser 7X57mm usually used by Police(carbine) appears barely fired have to really look for ring on bolt face!

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## GrauGeist (Aug 23, 2016)

What a great find!!


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## Wildcat (Aug 23, 2016)

Real nice!


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## javlin (Aug 23, 2016)

Wildcat said:


> Real nice!


Thks Brother 


GrauGeist said:


> What a great find!!


Not so much a great find just found out the real places to look "Auction Houses" talking like Armsbid,Mourphy,Rock Island and Amoskeag.
It took a little getting use to the system but you are bidding against shops(just cut the middle man) also set your limit because houses have 12-22% fees and you don't want to pay more than it's worth.I use Proxibid to get in.

Here's an Amoskeag Auction comes up quarterly GrauGeist a bunch of Lugers and P-38's Late-War German P.38 Semi-Auto... Auctions Online | Proxibid


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## javlin (Sep 24, 2016)

I built this wall mount of late out of Lyptus wood from SA.I still need to trim out with some 1/4"stock around the edges for the felt but wanted to get the rifles inside to a more controlled climate.I have yet to decide doors or a solid picture frame with plexiglass?
Top/Bottom





1909 Argentine Mauser 100% Matching
193? Venezuelan FN Mauser 100%
193? VZ24
1940s K98 90% late war stock replacement maybe not numbered
1943 G43 100% scope mount aftermarket
1903 Springfield
1956 M1 Garand
1960 FN49 .308 Argentine Navy Contract 100%
Side M1 carbine New

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## Wayne Little (Sep 25, 2016)




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## Wildcat (Sep 25, 2016)

Very nice!!


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## at6 (Sep 25, 2016)

Nice collection. Be glad that you don't live in California. At the end of the year weapons with detachable magazines will not be legal for purchase here nor will the magazines. That applies to all calibers and even shotguns.


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## javlin (Sep 25, 2016)

Thks Guys !Yeah at6 I hear ya.


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## Night Fighter Nut (Oct 29, 2016)

Finally went out and bought myself a pistol. Walter PPQ M2 9mm with 5" barrel. Wife had me pick it up for my birthday.

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## javlin (Oct 29, 2016)

Night Fighter Nut said:


> Finally went out and bought myself a pistol. Walter PPQ M2 9mm with 5" barrel. Wife had me pick it up for my birthday.



PIc?Pic? I feel anything Walter got to be Nice!


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## GrauGeist (Oct 30, 2016)

Night Fighter Nut said:


> Finally went out and bought myself a pistol. Walter PPQ M2 9mm with 5" barrel. Wife had me pick it up for my birthday.


Sounds like a great B-Day present!

And you know if Matt were here, he would most certainly lean on you for photos!


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## Torch (Oct 31, 2016)

Latest toys are an H&K VP9 and a Hybrid 7.62x39 Radicals Arms upper with an Anderson lower.


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## Night Fighter Nut (Oct 31, 2016)

I'll have a photo of it soon once I can get a decent one shrunk down far enough.


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## Night Fighter Nut (Nov 5, 2016)

Ok, here we go. Walther PPQ M2 9mm with 5" barrel. A very nice gun and very very accurate.


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## bobbysocks (Jan 15, 2017)

at the end of November I was at my favorite watering hole when the bar maid asks if I was interested in purchasing one of her last 2 tickets to a gun raffle. it was a "12 days of Christmas" raffle where they gave a different firearm away for 12 days right up to Christmas day. like all of them they are based on the daily number. I figured "what the heck" and bought both for $10 each. I have bought dozens of tickets before and consider it a donation to the various cause. this time it was the local volunteer fire dept. I am so sure I will not win I never even check the numbers. the tickets usually lay in my wallet way past their date and I clean them out from time to time. well Christmas eve I was at work when I got a call. this blind squirrel finally found a nut...I won a glock 43. I picked it up the other day. I have yet to get a chance to shoot it but has a nice feel and is compact enough for me to carry concealed. I hope to take a trip to the mountains in the next couple weeks and I will run a couple boxes through it then.

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## bobbysocks (Jan 15, 2017)




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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 15, 2017)

Nice.

I personally am not a fan of Glocks, but would not say no to a free one.


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## mikewint (Jan 15, 2017)

That's really great Bobby. Like Chris I'm not a fan of Glock. A good friend received a Glock 21 for Christmas and I got to shoot it a few weeks ago. No problems and it shot well but I'll stick to my XDM but for free heck, I'd jump on it too.
I see that you're going to put some +P HPs through it. Loved the Black Talons when Winchester made them. Their Ranger SXT series (Same eXact Thing) is essentially the same bullet and Remington's Golden Saber has the same design as well,


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## javlin (Jan 15, 2017)

Nice can't say no to free.


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## GrauGeist (Jan 15, 2017)

Gotta say that I am a little more than jealous - I have never won anything, although I have certainly tried of the years.

Looks like a nice addition and considering your investment, you came out way ahead - congrats!


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## at6 (Jan 15, 2017)

I wouldn't care what brand it was for that price. The problem being that here in California things have become way too restrictive. I can't even buy ammo without paying through the nose for a back ground check.


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## vikingBerserker (Jan 16, 2017)

You have to have a back ground check to buy ammo?? Cripes!


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## at6 (Jan 17, 2017)

vikingBerserker said:


> You have to have a back ground check to buy ammo?? Cripes!


Yep. As of January 1st this year. As far as I know, you can't even have ammo shipped from out of state without it. Not only that, but 22 ammo can't have lead in it. Has to be copper or some sort of other substance.


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## vikingBerserker (Jan 17, 2017)

WOW!


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## mikewint (Jan 17, 2017)

The second amendment right to keep and bear arms has never limited the number of hoops you must jump through to exercise that right. The big hole in the amendment is ammo. There is no right to keep or buy ammunition and without ammo you have an unwieldy club. I'm sure that the criminal element in Kalifornia have all the guns and ammo they want.
I few years back while visiting Chicago I stopped at a large gun store. I wanted to snoop around and had intended to buy cleaning supplies. I was stopped at the door and asked for my FOID card (Firearm Owners Identification Card). Pulling out my Arkansas drivers license I explained to the door guard that I did not and could not have one as I did not live in Ill-noise. To my surprise, it mattered not, no FOID no entrance. Bur-o-cracy!!!


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## GrauGeist (Jan 17, 2017)

Just to clarify a few facts:
California Prop. 63 has several laws coming into effect, but aren't active as of yet. These include:
Firearm owners must report firearm theft within 48 hours or face criminal charges.
Ownership of detachable magazines that hold more than 10 rounds will be prohibited as of July 2017.
Firearm owners will be required to have a DOJ permit for ammunition ownership as of January 2018.
Gun Shops will be required to perform background checks for ammunition purchases as of January 2019.

However, New York already has similar laws in effect and several states on the eastern seaboard have strict laws like this, too.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2017)

Watching this thread closely. If it just slightly dabbles into politics (which a few of you are starting to with the way you are wording your posts), I will shut the thread down permanently.


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## javlin (Mar 29, 2017)

I could only afford this @2-3K tops probably going to hit 5-6K but it would be really nice to add;this is really a high end auction they have an FG42starting @75K.I will put it on the watch list though the ZK-420 of course..
PROVENANCE: From the Estate of World Renowned British Rifle Collector Robert W. Faris.

*EXTREMELY RARE HIGH QUALITY C... Auctions Online | Proxibid

**EXTREMELY SCARCE KRIEGHOFF F... Auctions Online | Proxibid

**U.S. MACHINE CORPS M3 37MM A... Auctions Online | Proxibid


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 30, 2017)

Rock Island Auctions here had a StG44 up for bidding.


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## mikewint (Mar 30, 2017)

I want that anti-tank gun...the deer herds around here are getting W A Y out of hand...


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## Torch (Mar 30, 2017)

All you need is a .22lr with a silencer lol


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## javlin (Mar 30, 2017)

mikewint said:


> I want that anti-tank gun...the deer herds around here are getting W A Y out of hand...


Mike I think that might be a tad to much  Some info on Mr.Faris IF I can then this will be the second rifle to come out of a good collection with providence for me in the last couple year last one was Jerry Kuhnhausen's collection.

Breaking News: Bob Faris, 1930-2012


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## javlin (Mar 30, 2017)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Rock Island Auctions here had a StG44 up for bidding.


Yeah Chris RIA has one every 1/4 maybe of which one is a high end gig were all big boys come out and only a STG44 would come out then.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 30, 2017)

javlin said:


> Yeah Chris RIA has one every 1/4 maybe of which one is a high end gig were all big boys come out and only a STG44 would come out then.



I'd love to go to one. They are right down the interstate from me.

The owner of RIA hangars his plane at our Hangar. Well he did before he built hisown.


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## mikewint (Mar 30, 2017)

That Bob Faris interview


Torch said:


> All you need is a .22lr with a silencer lol



Just a tad light and illegal. Even the AR round is kinda light unless you have excellent shot placement. Following a blood trail through the neighborhood is not a good thing. I'm a 30-30 guy myself
The Bob Faris interview reminded me of when we bought the "deactivated" war souvenir Thompson for $25 at Kleins in Chicago. New barrel and a couple of weeks picking the lead out of the breech with dental picks and bingo a functioning gun. Good Times


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## javlin (Mar 30, 2017)

Mike my boss use to take down deer on the edge of his property with a HR17 as you said shop placement neck/spine dropped like a rock.


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## mikewint (Mar 30, 2017)

Kevin, I would question his claims. The little polymer-tip rimfire .17HMR round is a flat shooter and great for rodents (squirrels are rats that live in trees and rabbits are rats that live underground). I love my Golden Boy 17 but deer? The little .17 does not hit much harder than a .22LR
The .223 hits 7 times harder (and I consider it light for deer), the 30-30 hits 8.5 times harder, and the 30-06 15 times. 
Consider the following ballistics:
.17 HMR 17gr. V-Max BT 2550fps 50yds 186ft-lb
100yds 137ft-lb

.22LR 40gr. CCI Velocitor 1435fps 50yds 136ft-lb
100yds 105ft-lb

.223 Rem 69gr. Win HPBT 3060fps 50yds 1292ft-lb
100yds 1158ft-lb

30-30 Win 170gr. Win Silvertip 2200fps 50yds 1583ft-lb
100yds 1359ft-lb

30-06 Spfd 180gr. Win Silvertip 2750fps 50yds 2833ft-lb
100yds 2647ft-lb


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## Shortround6 (Mar 30, 2017)

Most anything will work right up until it doesn't. 

Had a relative that "claimed" he had to stop his car for a deer in the road, He got out with a High Standard .22 pistol and when the deer didn't move he fired one round at the deer. the Deer fell over, He said he about fell over too, in surprise. He hit in the head, He wasn't aiming at the head. 

I have also chased all over a Vermont mountain after a deer leaking blood from multiple buckshot wounds from another "hunter" in our party (never trust anyone who empties his gun every time he even glimpses a deer) When we finally found it (and finished it off) it had been running on 3 legs as one of it's legs had been broken by one of the multiple hits. 

Use enough gun to make up for minor errors and go to the range enough to make sure your errors _are _minor.

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## javlin (Mar 30, 2017)

I don't know Mike the guy is an AVID hunter.His house has a corridor from the kitchen to wash room with a window in the corridor it's probably under a 100 yards to the edge.Now I only heard him mention doing this once with a 17 and it was early morning and it was killed and gutted before 7AM.I never had no reason to doubt his honesty Mike he was the fairest by many leagues of any DM I have worked for in 30yrs all his mangers respected him;hence he continues to move up the chain of command.


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## Torch (Mar 31, 2017)

.22lr has been a poachers tool for a long time, my comment was just a joke since I detest poachers and don't condone their methods. With a .17hmr or .22lr it would have to be a perfect head shot, I prefer my .300wsm..


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## Robert Porter (Mar 31, 2017)

I used .22lr and .22 shorts with a buckshot load as "varmint" loads for years. From a handgun and rifle. Mostly for rats, feral cats and coons, and the occasional woodchuck. Always from relatively close range. Squirrels mostly used a .410 same for rabbits. For bigger game always used bigger calibers.


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## mikewint (Mar 31, 2017)

Torch I knew that you were joking but this is one of my buttons, not as bad as the Westboro Baptist Church but close.
The whitetail deer is a grand game animal, intelligent, fast and athletic. I do hunt whitetails and usually kill one every year. I most sincerely believe that such a fine animal deserves a clean humane kill, and quite simply the .17HMR cannot be counted on to do this.
There is a big difference in the penetration of a 17gr .17HMR and a 40gr 22LR. The .22LR will penetrate much further since 17 HMR rounds are designed to expand rapidly and thus when striking bone like a skull they simply fragment. Rimfires are not and were not designed to take large game.
Now while I posted the ft.-lb energy of the various rounds have, the amount of energy a bullet has doesn't actually kill game though the hydro-static shock delivered will cause the game to drop in its tracks. Death is brought about by massive hemorrhaging and that blood flows through the wound channel. A 17HMR will not leave a very big wound channel in a deer. Penetration will be very poor as well. I have seen woodchucks shake off a .17HMR to the body. Therefore IMHO, the chances of a non-fatal wound are highly likely with the 17HMR due to limited penetration and a relative small wound channel which may never reach the vitals in a larger game animal such as a deer. In the event the hypothetical 17 or 20-grain bullet did reach the arteries there would be no exit wound as the light bullet is lacking momentum to pass through the deer.
So even though one may have cut the necessary arteries to kill the deer the likelihood of recovering the animal is quite slim. As the deer would likely cover over a half mile before expiring leaving no blood trail for one to follow.
Now I would agree that a perfect head shot would kill a deer but I would be concerned about it deflecting off the skull. Head shots on larger game are always risky shots. Delivering a shot at the head of a deer can mean a direct hit to the brain, which is the center of all activities including movement. Headshots are known to paralyze all the body functions although they have received numerous criticism and even been termed unethical. A deer’s brain is approximately three inches, which mean that the chances of hitting it are extremely low. The head of most animals including deer is one of the parts that move instantaneously without warning making aiming it difficult. However, this spot can end up causing serious injuries to a deer; for example; when a hunter misses the brain, and the bullet goes through the jaw. The deer will escape but later die a slow death because of starvation owing to the inability to feed.
So in short, the use of rimfires is not only risky, but totally inhumane. Asking a bullet that weighs as much as a paper clip to kill a 200+ lb animal is silly. There are a number of unethical ways one could kill a deer and the .17HMR/.22LR would be one of them.
It saddens me to say that I just watched a number of YouTube videos of cretins shooting deer and feral hogs with the .17HMR. The cretins were laughing as the animals thrashed about and tried to run as they pumped round after round into them.


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## Torch (Mar 31, 2017)

Totally agree with your post Mike except for .17hm2s not .17hmrs. I used to have a Taurus Tracker that fired the now gone .17hm2(necked down .22lr) to go rabbit hunting, after a couple of rabbits taken with it I sold it and am back to using a .22lr solid or lead bullet. That .17hm2 flew at 2000fps or so and just turned the rabbit into jelly, wasting food was not my intent. My 20gauge and my S&W 617 plus my new S&W Victory do a great job. As for big game aside from shot placement anything or around a .260 would be fine for white tail. I have a .300wsm because with the right load I can take any game in the US plus the weight saving of a short receiver makes humping up and down at altitudes from 7k to 10k' just that much easier. Plus for Mulie a 300-400 yard shot is not unheard of.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Mar 31, 2017)

Shortround6 said:


> Most anything will work right up until it doesn't.
> 
> Had a relative that "claimed" he had to stop his car for a deer in the road, He got out with a High Standard .22 pistol and when the deer didn't move he fired one round at the deer. the Deer fell over, He said he about fell over too, in surprise. He hit in the head, He wasn't aiming at the head.
> 
> ...



I hate people like your "hunter" you describe.

I am all for hunting, but you don't need to cause unnessessary suffering.

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## XBe02Drvr (Apr 1, 2017)

I vote .30-30 in the woods, .270 in the fields, and .50 Hawken in the season.
If you don't like gun law restrictions, come to Vermont; we may be insufferably liberal, but we've got some of the least restrictive gun laws in the country.
Cheers,
Wes


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## wlewisiii (Apr 1, 2017)

Currently I have a Rossi 92 & S&W 13 in 357 mag as my primary firearms.

I also have a WWII Japanese Arisaka Type 99 that was put in a Remington stock along the way, a T/C flintlock and need to.finish my 7mm Mauser VZ24 based carbine project. I also hope to get an inexpensive 20 gauge pump before the next duck season.

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## XBe02Drvr (Apr 1, 2017)

wlewisiii said:


> I also hope to get an inexpensive 20 gauge pump before the next duck season.


Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 in 20 Ga, both well under $300 at your local Wal-Mart.
Almost bought one for my girlfriend's first shotgun, but then stumbled on a really nice used Remington 1100 for not much more, and she was seduced by the autoloader's soft recoil.
Cheers, 
Wes

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## mikewint (Apr 1, 2017)

Chris, 150% agreement. We've taken whitetails in the past and found 3-5 .22 bullets lodged in their fore and hind quarters from some cretin shooting at them for "fun" I guess. Dad, granddad, and uncles pounded into my head many, many times shoot for meat, defense, varmints, and target. Be 100% sure of your shot and what you're shooting at (my dairy farmer uncle would loose at least one cow a deer season), never wound, and finish off anything that you do wound, nothing less than 30cal for big game. One year my uncle, after his second cow got shot, actually took whitewash and painted "COW" on both sides of each cow.
Wes, come to Arkansas sometime, Nuf said. (I'm being good Chris!)
wlewis, personal opinion: For waterfowl, I use shot shells loaded with BB-shot for long distance and/or #1 or #2 shot for close range over decoys. Finding 20ga shells loaded with bigger than #2 is very tough whereas 12ga has a much wider variety and can be found in heavier loads have a much wider variety available, i.e. more pellets in your pattern. I'd also suggest a semi-auto rather than a pump
TORCH, I've no personal experience with the Mach 2 .17 round but from Shooting Times Review:
*Ballistic coefficients for the 17-grain bullet of the .17 HM2 and the 40-grain bullet of the .22 LR are close to the same, but the .17-caliber bullet shoots flatter because it starts out considerably faster. Its high velocity also enables the .17-caliber bullet to deliver the same energy levels downrange, even though it is 35 percent lighter.*
*The .17 HM2 strikes a 100-yard target with around 90 foot-pounds of punch, which is about the same as for both high-velocity and hypervelocity loadings of the .22 LR. However, it does fall short of the 110 ft-lbs delivered at that distance by the CCI Velocitor and its 40-grain bullet at 1435 fps. Also, I have found the .17 HM2 to be less sensitive to wind than the .22 LR Stinger.*
*When discussing the pros and cons of the .17 HM2, I must not overlook the safety factor. Whereas the bullet of the .22 LR has a tendency to hang onto most of its original weight and ricochet off into the wild blue yonder, the bullet of the .17 HM2 disintegrates into extremely small pieces upon impact so long as the range does not greatly exceed 125 yards.*
*During one of my test sessions, I filled 2-liter plastic bottles with water, aligned them three deep at 100 yards, and shot them with Hornady’s .17 HM2 loading and the CCI .22 LR Stinger load. The .17-caliber bullet went to pieces inside the first bottle with only a single small jacket fragment making its way through the near side of the second bottle and coming to rest inside it. The 32-grain bullet of the Stinger completely penetrated all three water-filled bottles and disappeared into the dirt backstop.*
I remain adamant that shooting at a +200lb animal with a bullet that weighs the same as a paperclip and is DESIGNED to fragment on impact is unethical, immoral, reprehensible, and as much as I hate regulations should be illegal even if it's Mach 10


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## javlin (Apr 11, 2017)

So I went in @2300 I then went to 2500 I was a mouse in a lion's cage out of my league on this one.It looked like a good rifle for investment saw what looked like #57 in 2009 went for maybe 5-6K(?) this guy hit 13K today.Do you think #57 is happy?There was millions of dollars involved in this auction today I am just a regular joe.:Oh well  Also sometimes I wondered if a big organization could of been involved possibly?just were does the NRA get it guns for display? 

*EXTREMELY RARE HIGH QUALITY C... Auctions Online | Proxibid


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## mikewint (Apr 12, 2017)

Not an authority by any means but like many museums, libraries, Halls of Fame, etc., items are on loan from the actual owners.
Items like that gun are often purchased as an investment much like buying land or antique cars in hopes that the price will go up in the future


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## javlin (Apr 12, 2017)

I offer my G43 to the D-day Museum about six tears ago(loan) they did not have one in the collection sent pics and info never got a response back.One of my neighbors is a Teacher @USM said most museums work off donations these days which I did see alot of tags as such.The Son and I went in November and they now have a G43.


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## Torch (Apr 13, 2017)

Going back to the .17hm2 vs .22lr I wonder if my experience with them and rabbits are more due to bullet design than the actual velocities. Mike what your saying makes sense about the HM2 with it's nylon tipped nose, that should fragment on impact more so than a solid nose .22lr.. But I will stick to my guns when it comes to my experience and wound damage caused by the .17hm2 vs .22lr. Where I go rabbit hunting there's no issues on ricochets so not really worried about that. Maybe the combination of hyper velocity and fragmenting rounds is the reason..


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## mikewint (Apr 13, 2017)

Small game/varments are not a big problem around here. Though the occasional armadillo and gopher need to be sent to Valhalla every now and then. Dad/Grandpa taught VERY STRONG lessons about shooting small game ANYWHERE but in the head.
In that respect the .17 HMR and .22 WMR are both useful varmint and small game cartridges. Ammunition and rifles for both are widely distributed and commonly available. Recoil and muzzle blast are low for both, particularly from a rifle. They are good cartridges for use in semi-populated areas though the .17’s fragmentation on impact means zero ricochet, a very big plus .
.17 HMR ammunition is generally more expensive than .22 WMR ammunition, but the difference will not be an unbearable burden to most small game and varmint hunters. For inexpensive practice at the range, neither is in the price class of the .22 Long Rifle.
Used with proper ammunition, the .17 HMR has an advantage in velocity, trajectory, and accuracy. The .22 WMR has an advantage in energy, bullet frontal area, sectional density, and consequently killing power.
IMHO, I would favor the .22 WMR for shooting small game and varmints within 100 yards, and the .17 HMR if shots often run much beyond that distance.
My BIGGEST debate would be with those who use either round on larger game like deer. Again IMHO unethical and reprehensible to the max and just pain cruel.


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## Torch (Apr 14, 2017)

That I agree 100%


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## mikewint (Apr 14, 2017)

Around here with the heavy forestation 50yds is a long shot and the "On-the-Hoof" venison begs to be shot. Many don't like the 30-30 because of the bullet drop but again here at 50yds the bullet (150gr. HP) is dead center and at 100yds its dropped .32in. Yea at 200yds its almost 8in low but that simply does not count around here


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## Torch (Apr 15, 2017)

Reminds me of when I used to hunt in upstate New York, same thing 100 yards was a lot,usually when you were by the power lines but otherwise 50 yards was the average, Just about everybody in the group used .308s, maybe a .270. One guy we called Grandpa used a 30-30 lever action.


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## mikewint (Apr 15, 2017)

THAT WAS ME!!! The aged flatulence.

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## javlin (May 15, 2017)

Finished!


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## mikewint (May 15, 2017)

Kevin, VERY impressive AND recessed into the wall. That must have required a considerable amount of carpentry skill. How did you find an interior wall deep enough to do that?


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## Torch (May 15, 2017)

Nicely done!!, just saw an M1 Inland carbine at Cabela's(I know over priced anyway) but yeesh 1299.00 and it was kind of rough...So sorry I sold my IBM manufactured carbine, was PO'd at the company at the time. Never make rash decisions when it comes to firearms.


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## mikewint (May 15, 2017)

Yea was about 1963 sold my L.C. Smith 12 ga double barrel shotgun that Dad gave me for my 16th Bday for maybe $300, then about 1975 sold my Colt Python for about $400 and my SMLE sporterized .303 for about $100. If only...


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## Graeme (May 15, 2017)

We keep our gun in the crisper - ready for life's "saucy" encounters...
Ammo is Fountain Tomato Sauce.

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## javlin (May 16, 2017)

mikewint said:


> Kevin, VERY impressive AND recessed into the wall. That must have required a considerable amount of carpentry skill. How did you find an interior wall deep enough to do that?



Thanks Mike.It's on the surface Mike the box is 4.5" deep and the doors are 1.5"+ (I mill my wood usually to .8").The front of the door you see is 45' corners with 2.5' wide w/biscuits in the corner(10) with a dado cut to the inside(recess for glass).Then the inner frame is biscuited at 90' angle with a ledge to push against the glass.Once everything was sanded and ready for fit the two frames were glued together.The 90' frame overlaps the 45' giving alot of strength in the corner's.The L/door has two 1/2 circle deadbolts top/bottom to lock and the glass is poly-carbonate .250"+ say is good for a .22 of some sort.Anything can be broken into but making it a little more of a hassle.I hope in the next six months to get the simplysafe system for the house and put sensors on the door.Some of the hardest work I have found to do Mike in my wood work is getting the doors to mirror each other (size wise).This was my best effort thus far time and patience paid off we are talking 1/16" was the difference was able to adjust that out to the eye for the most part.

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## mikewint (May 16, 2017)

Again very impressive piece of carpentry. It sure looks to be much deeper than 4in. I've considered a gun cabinet several times but with the tank display cabinet and the two aircraft cabinets there is no wall space left so the long guns remain locked away in the gun safe. The only guns "on display" are my Colt SAA Ainsworth inspected .45 and that's just in a tooled leather holster and my Mitchell Arms Luger, which has never been fired, in the German WWII aircraft cabinet


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## javlin (May 16, 2017)

Those American made Lugers are nice Mike.They do not command the premiums of WWII stuff but a nice way to present a variety of the weapon and it's impact on the world market.


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## mikewint (May 16, 2017)

It's one of the first (1991) Mitchell produced and they stopped in 1994 when Stroeger bought the rights from them. It's basically NIB with one round (factory test) having been fired. I've got an original 1939 German Luger complete with Nazi stick eagles. It has one non-matching serial number part (not counting the mag). It works and shoots like a charm though I don't shoot it very often.


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## javlin (May 30, 2017)

I have been looking for awhile for one in good shape 
Lee- Enfield No.4 Mk. 2 bolt a... Auctions Online | Proxibid

P/U another unused Gustav Mauser cheap
Swedish Mauser rifle marked &#... Auctions Online | Proxibid


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## javlin (Jun 21, 2017)

The Enfield was p/u today was new never fired still cosmoline on the front sight and in the barrel w/zero marks on the bolt face.I had been looking for a worthy Enfield for the better part of five years a WWII version would be nice in the No.4Mk1 but I look to quality these days.The Swedish Mauser another fine example has been shot bolt face slight ring amtching except the floor/trigger plate.The VZ 24 removed(Swede) along with the "03"(Enfield) out of the indoor cabinet.Do I still model yeah got my son's F-16 squadron(Misawa) (they are in Kunsan S.Korea right now) on the table and the Nichimo Oscar.

I want to add another note about my son.The Misawa AFB did a video back before the TDY to SK showing him working the line moving out an F-16 for flight (crewchief).It stated A1C Garrett Morgan showing off his techniques for "Freestyle Friday" courtesy of Misawa AFB


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## javlin (Jun 30, 2017)

Some pics of the EnField never been fired and all matching to the mag which was shipped separate from the rifle maybe some kind Cali law?The silver tag on the trigger looks to be some kind manufacturing ID or armorer ID?Terry might know


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## mikewint (Jun 30, 2017)

Very nice, even the wood work looks pristine. My old one had soaked up so much oil? over the years it was almost black. Sanding helped a bit but not much.
I remember hearing about a company called Springfield Sportsters that did some conversion work on SMLEs and used a metal tag on the trigger guard but that's about it.


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## javlin (Jun 30, 2017)

Thks Mike I have asked on another board after no luck with a couple of different searches on the net.I am on that board a youngster @ 56 and we use to have some of the biggest names/writers in the gun community most them have passed on.


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## mikewint (Jul 1, 2017)

If I remember correctly they, Springfield, were doing conversions on the Enfields. They were converting them to fire .410 shotgun rounds. I suppose that if I had an old worn out barrel with essentially no lands left I might consider it. But on that rifle of yours it would be sacrilege.
Ever heard of "Ed's Red" for removing cosmoline?


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## javlin (Jul 1, 2017)

mikewint said:


> Ever heard of "Ed's Red" for removing cosmoline?



No I haven't Mike but think the remaining cosmoline stays were it's at more proof she was never fired.I have gotten to the point now I prefer something in the order little to no use if I need to shoot have plenty of others that like to kick 

This makes five in that category.


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## mikewint (Jul 1, 2017)

Understood, thought you bought this as a shooter. For $810 USD a Mint Unissued RAF Contract Lee-Enfield Mk.2 1955


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## XBe02Drvr (Jul 1, 2017)

$$810.00?? OMG! In 1965 a high school classmate of mine bought five like that for $100! Still in the goo. Five guys chipped in $20 each. I could have been one of them, but my parents didn't want something like that around the house.
A year later I got my never-issued '95 Mauser for the same price.


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## mikewint (Jul 1, 2017)

The prices on old service guns has skyrocketed in the last 10 years or so. Kleins Sporting Goods in Chicago had rows of 55 gal barrels filled with every kind/type of firearm used in WWII. The SMLE I bought in 1960 from Kleins was used but in excellent shape and I paid about $20 and my buddy Joe bought a Type 99 Arisaka for $12 About a year later we chipped in together to buy that Thompson sub machine gun (sold as deactivated war souvenir) for $50. New barrel and lead picked out of the breach with dental picks and it was fully functional. The Good Olde Days


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## Shortround6 (Jul 1, 2017)

Paid about $200.00 back in the 80s for my 1954 still the wrapping paper/cosmoline. (like the picture)


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## javlin (Jul 1, 2017)

In the land of Aussie these guys hit $1500+ and I have seen on GB some at $1800 the other day like mine.


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## javlin (Jul 5, 2018)

Not much in this thread of late after 1 1/2 years of bidding and I finally won an auction on a 1905 Winchester SL in .32 caliber using a 170g bullet.I had to order ammo from Buffalo Arms Co. for a very reasonable $1.70 a round originals is going for $3+.The rifle itself is in the 75-80%+ condition and has a five round mag in front of the trigger if you had one from a prison they would get 10-15 rd mags.These rifles were said to be used some in WWI by the French in the .351 caliber in very limited numbers think in the trench only no cocking the handle.My particular rifle according to it's serial number was produced in 1913 of which only about 30K were made period in the life of the 1905 32WSL which ended roughly 1920 .I love a self loader and this with a detachable mag was one of the first.

Picture from the auction house





Just PPoor lighting why I got the pics from auction account.





the ammo

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## vikingBerserker (Jul 6, 2018)

Nice!


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## fubar57 (Jul 6, 2018)

Cool.


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## mikewint (Jul 7, 2018)

Nice find and congrats


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## fastmongrel (Jul 7, 2018)

javlin said:


> Some pics of the EnField never been fired and all matching to the mag which was shipped separate from the rifle maybe some kind Cali law?The silver tag on the trigger looks to be some kind manufacturing ID or armorer ID?Terry might know
> View attachment 377322
> View attachment 377323
> View attachment 377324
> ...



Very nice but going by your photos it looks like it could be a factory refurb with Parkerized metal parts and Beech woodwork it should be blued and with Walnut it its a new Fazakerley built Mk2. Unless it is an Irish contract No4 Mk2 they had Beech woodwork and there were quite a few that never got issued.


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## fubar57 (Jul 7, 2018)

I have a full wood 1916 Lee Enfield complete with bayonet which I purchased for 90$ using the required FAC permit. Decades later they changed the purchasing rules and then changed the rules again so I am not even sure if I'm still allowed to possess it. If the federal government is looking in.....I do not own a full wood 1916 Lee Enfield with bayonet. I am happy to say though, it is not at my residence as I don't own a gun locker and buddy is tending it for me


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## javlin (Jul 7, 2018)

fastmongrel said:


> Unless it is an Irish contract No4 Mk2 they had Beech woodwork and there were quite a few that never got issued.


You got it SN# matches the Irish contract never issued with cosmoline still in the on the front sight and other recesses including in the barrel.

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## fastmongrel (Jul 8, 2018)

javlin said:


> You got it SN# matches the Irish contract never issued with cosmoline still in the on the front sight and other recesses including in the barrel.



Sweet the Fazakerley Mk2s are very very nice. I am not at all jealous my No4 is looking very shabby these days but still shoots well with a nice trigger so while it works I am not touching the woodwork.


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## javlin (Jul 8, 2018)

fastmongrel said:


> Sweet the Fazakerley Mk2s are very very nice. I am not at all jealous my No4 is looking very shabby these days but still shoots well with a nice trigger so while it works I am not touching the woodwork.


This will never be fired with the inventory tag(?) she's a wall hanger.The top three mausers not fired except for the Gustav maybe couple hundred rds I guess barely a ring on the bolt then the Enfield and carbine.

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## Ivan1GFP (Jul 8, 2018)

Hello Javlin.
The rifle on the bottom has me wondering. Is it a FN-49 with a BAR magazine conversion or something else?
Nice bunch of toys you got there!
After your post with the Winchester Self Loader, I was looking around for my copy of "Home Guide to Cartridge Conversions".
There might be a reasonably cost effective way to get ammunition for .32 WSL.

- Ivan.


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## fastmongrel (Jul 8, 2018)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Is it a FN-49 with a BAR magazine conversion or something else?



The Argentinian Navy converted some of their FN-49s to have a 20rd magazine
FN Model 1949 - Wikipedia


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## javlin (Jul 8, 2018)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello Javlin.
> The rifle on the bottom has me wondering. Is it a FN-49 with a BAR magazine conversion or something else?
> Nice bunch of toys you got there!
> After your post with the Winchester Self Loader, I was looking around for my copy of "Home Guide to Cartridge Conversions".
> ...


It's a matching FN-49 Argentine Navy contract the only contract with a detachable mag and was originally a 7.62X53 and they were converted to Nato later.The contract consist of about 5K rifles of which 1200-1600 came into the states about 1995 or so I got it with the bayo for $695 in 95.The rifle functions extremely well can take some abuse in rapid fire being all forged but it's a battle rifle 4" groups @100yds it does what it was designed to do,a blast to shoot FAST.I do think that some Venezuelan rifles were converted to a mag in 7MM? The carbine came out of Jerry Kuhnhausen collection of which about 500 of what I would call the BS guns were up for sale(thinking private sales p/u the best before auction) while not an original WWII GI issue it is made of all USGI part on a new Springfield receiver(forged) of which only 3000 were made( Springfield Armory ) Jerry built it(provenance to me) and it's never been fired I got it cheaper than the what you pay for an Auto Ordnance even with auction fees! 

Not alot about Jerry floats out there just he was one of the best gunsmith in the country for awhile.A quote from someone else:

A few years ago, due to the interest in him, I wrote to the NRA Dope Bag and asked what they knew.

They said that he'd passed away some years ago, and that little was known about him because of his very private nature.

About all that's known for sure is that he ran a large gun shop and custom gunsmithing business, and that he trained gunsmiths for the industry, including the big gun companies.

The gun company training was the reason he was very specific about doing work the factory way.
That's why you don't see any of the old "make it work....SOMEHOW" methods like heating and bending of parts, silver soldering, and making expedient parts.
Kuhnhausen's theory was that a gunsmith should restore a gun to factory new condition.


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## javlin (Jul 8, 2018)

fastmongrel said:


> The Argentinian Navy converted some of their FN-49s to have a 20rd magazine
> FN Model 1949 - Wikipedia


Just found that myself on orders from the Navy I guess to go with the Army's .308

Contrary to some speculation FN did not contract or produce the Argentine conversion of SAFN 1949 rifles from 7.65×53mm Argentine to 7.62mm NATO. While FN did receive and then later deliver an order for a conversion of a single rifle in March 1967 the remaining armory stock of the Argentine rifles were converted domestically by Metalúrgica Centro a company formerly known as Fábrica de armas Halcón. Metalúrgica Centro provided and installed in each rifle a new barrel in 7.62mm NATO, modified each ejector, and modified each trigger guard to take a new 20 round detachable box magazine. The converted rifles were provided with proprietary 20 round detachable box magazines manufactured by Metalúrgica Centro to fit the SAFN 1949 rifle conversions. The 20 round steel magazines are proprietary but were made to share the magazine loading charger with the FN FAL rifle used by the Argentine Army.[1] These chargers are the same as for the Mauser Kar-98k, and thus not interchangeable with standard NATO stripper clips


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## Ivan1GFP (Jul 8, 2018)

javlin said:


> The rifle functions extremely well can take some abuse in rapid fire being all forged but it's a battle rifle 4" groups @100yds it does what it was designed to do,a blast to shoot FAST.



Hello Javlin.
The other gun that attracted my attention was the G43/K43. Those are pretty hard to find with a scope.
I actually had no idea Kuhnhausen was dead, but I didn't really know much about him other than that he was a very good gunsmith and author. I still have a bunch of his books and pick them up whenever I find them at a decent price.

The FN-49 like most semi-autos is a bit picky about ammunition but if the barrel is in decent condition you should be doing better than 4 inch groups at 100 yards. I was getting closer to 2 inch groups at 100 yards with mine.
Those guns do have forged receivers and look pretty sturdy but are a bit more delicate than one might suspect.
The worst part is the firing pin. It breaks pretty easily. I think I have broken two. Absolutely NEVER dry fire these guns. 
Eventually they switched to two piece firing pins but I have never actually seen one of those.
The stock on my gun is pretty beat up to the point where I believe I should replace it. It is so soaked in oil that it can not be repaired easily. (The fore end has a serious crack and has already been repaired once.)

I also had a 7.62 NATO conversion at one point but this was done by a local gunsmith rather than an armoury and he did not do as good a job as he could have. The gun never functioned reliably regardless of how the gas port was adjusted.

- Ivan.


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## javlin (Jul 8, 2018)

The G43 is a matching rifle with the original sling as for the scope K43 is an original late production I p/u separate years later and the mount a cheap repo.I have seen original mounts with the scopes and they go for 2K+ and that was years ago when I was looking hate to see what they are going for now!I still have the original gas port(cracked) but have a shooters kit in it now which seemed was a weak point on the two piece port.This rifle shoots pretty good could use a recrown but I dare not touch it.I have about 12-14 other rifle in the shop out back those are shooters VZ24,M1a,WH Thompson(semi),o3 Corona,Ruger Scout etc......I want to bring them back inside for safety and a better environment as far as climate control.


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## Ivan1GFP (Jul 8, 2018)

Hello Javlin,
Who made the repro scope mount? I am a bit curious.
My understanding when talking with a fellow who owned a few G43/K43 was that the locking tabs were the weak part of the system. I suppose there were quite a few vulnerable areas during that stage of the war.
What is a WH Thompson? Auto Ordnance Semi? My experience with those is that they do not function with regular commercial .45 ACP but function fine with GI Ball. The chronograph explains why: Out of a regular 5 inch M1911, the commercial stuff only averages slightly above 800 fps with 230 grain while the military stuff is a bit faster than 850 fps if I remember right. It has been a few years since I chronographed .45 ACP stuff.

Gotta run. My Wonderful Wife has just demanded the use of my Computer.

- Ivan.


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## Donivanp (Jul 8, 2018)

Just found this thread, some really nice stuff out there. I only have a Springfield Arms 1911 and a AR-15 (tapped out my own lower receiver. Both are really nice shooters and nearby at arms length. We Texans have a thing with our firearms.


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## javlin (Jul 9, 2018)

Who made the repro scope mount? I am a bit curious.--I believe they were reproductions coming out of Czech I paid like $139 some reason none show except a cheaper version on Sarco now.

What is a WH Thompson? Auto Ordnance Semi?--Yeah it functions well is 1985 production before Kahr arms took over and they still made FA still not the the quality of the AO back in the day.I have the wood and barrel from a kit out of Russia I want to do an SBR one day.


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## Navalwarrior (Jul 12, 2018)

ccheese said:


> The gun I've always wanted to own was a German Navy Luger. They had
> a very long barrel, I'm guessing about ten inches. I saw a couple at gun
> shows, but I would have had to mortgage the house to own one.
> 
> ...


Resp:
The Naval Luger had a 6 inch bbl (had a two level adj rear sight on toggle); the Artillery Model had an 8 inch bbl. The first service in Germany to adopt the Luger was their Navy (1904?).


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## GrauGeist (Jul 12, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Resp:
> The Naval Luger had a 6 inch bbl (had a two level adj rear sight on toggle); the Artillery Model had an 8 inch bbl. The first service in Germany to adopt the Luger was their Navy (1904?).


DWM made longer barrels than the Army 7" model.


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## Navalwarrior (Jul 12, 2018)

timshatz said:


> Just picked up a S&W .357 revolver. Also have a S&W 59 9mm but the thing keeps stove piping so I moved over to a revolver. Hate to have to NEED a gun and then have it go "ploink" after the first shot. Plus I don't have the time to recycle the mags.


Resp:
Revolvers handle neglect better, while automatics handle abuse better. Revolvers (swing out cylinder double action) are surprisingly fast to reload, using speed loaders (round gadgets that hold 5, 6, 7 or 8 ctgs). Yes, there are 7 and 8 shot 357 Magnums out there. I recommend practicing with dummy rounds over your bed. Use three fingers; the thumb, index and adjoining finger . . . to grasp the round body of the speed loader. Grip revolver (w R hand) and with cylinder opened )at waist level) tilt barrel directly away from you & down at about 45 degrees. Using L hand, and the 3 fingers only over the opened cylinder . . . Gently rotated it until the cartridges start to drop in. Then quickly Turn knob of Speedloader and the cartridges (under gravity) will drop into cylinder. Immediately let go of sppeadloader (it will fall out of the way on its own) and close cylinder with L hand. To unload, swing out cylinder and as you point the muzzle straight up, push the ejector rod. Revolvers are getting more attention, as I am seeing the auto guys suddenly wanting at least one revolver. I always recommend a stainless 357 with a 4 inch barrel. In my country, a neighbor may only have 357 ctgs to lend, so even if you only plan on shooting the lesser powered 38 Special . . . it would be wise to have a gun that will handle the Magnum also. There is no magazine to lose, and springs just don't need to be replaced like automatics do. Load it, and put it up until needed. Ammo shelf life is easily 50+ yrs in a controlled climate. Also, if you cannot bring yourself to own a gun that fires a revolver ctg, Ruger (9mm) and Charter arms (380, 40 S&W) make revolvers in auto calibers.


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## Navalwarrior (Jul 12, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> DWM made longer barrels than the Army 7" model.


Reps:
Luger made a lot of different bbl lengths. Never hear of an Army 7 inch (include chamber for correct bbl length).


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## GrauGeist (Jul 12, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Reps:
> Luger made a lot of different bbl lengths. Never hear of an Army 7 inch (include chamber for correct bbl length).


The Artillery model (LP08) is 7.9" - Artillery = Army
The LP08 was also issued to Infantry as well as Luftstreitkräfte pilots.


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## Navalwarrior (Jul 14, 2018)

drgondog said:


> I am not going to bother showing them but I have lot of wildcats and standard calibers in rifles plus specialized shotguns - Fabri's and Perazzi' for both Field and Pigeon Shooting plus many pistols ranging fro S&W mdl 63 in 22 mag, to Model 25 and and 19 and 41 and 29 S%W plus Sig 228, 229 and 239 plus the 1911AI Wilson Custom.
> 
> My five favorite non military type rifles are a Jarrett 280 Ackley, and 338-06 Custom from Wiseman, my 30-06 with Wiseman barrel and McMillan Stock, my 25-284 with a Shilen barrel and .375 with Wiseman barrel. All are 1/2 MOA shooters with 5 rounds at 100yds, better at 200. All have McMillan stocks and Leupold scopes
> 
> If I had to pick one for every animal on earth, it would be my .375 H&H on a Mauser Action with Wiseman bbl. It shoots everything well but is a thumper at 7 pounds w/o scope.


Resp:
I like your rifles. My favorite is the one I have in my hand. I am likely old school compared to most. I was taught to 'master' whatever I was handed. Shooting a steel butt, too short and too low comb stock of an 8 lb 30-06 was my biggest challenge at age 17. A 1911 came at age 18. I was told that if you can shoot the hard ones, the others will be easy. Today, it seems it is all about feel. If it doesn't feel good, or seems too heavy . . . it is somehow unworthy. I asked a retired lawman if he had been in any gun fights. His reply was 4. I asked him how many times did he have to shoot each time. He said he was a little embarrassed that on the last fight he fired 3 shots, saying he got a little flustered. The third shot was unnecessary. I asked him what he carried. A 4 inch bbl 357 Combat Magnum, he replied. So he ended the hostilities with 1 or 2 shots. (By the way, he never missed). Today, no one can see themselves doing battle with less than a 15 shot magazine pistol. Except in competition, I cannot ever remember shooting more than 40 shots at one outing, usually three cylinders worth (18 rds) growing up. Is the firearm a status symbol, or is it a tool that requires using to be skilled? I shoot the big ones, but Don't forget the 22 rimfire. Stance, sight picture and trigger squeeze apply to all. I never load my auto with more than 6 rds, when practicing. If I know I am going to 'pull' a shot off center . . . I drop my arms, to rest and clear my mind. The I proceed. I am teaching muscle memory. In the end the mind controls the muscles to bring off a good shot. Good habits become consistency.

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## drgondog (Jul 15, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Resp:
> I like your rifles. My favorite is the one I have in my hand. I am likely old school compared to most. I was taught to 'master' whatever I was handed. Shooting a steel butt, too short and too low comb stock of an 8 lb 30-06 was my biggest challenge at age 17. A 1911 came at age 18. I was told that if you can shoot the hard ones, the others will be easy. Today, it seems it is all about feel. If it doesn't feel good, or seems too heavy . . . it is somehow unworthy. I asked a retired lawman if he had been in any gun fights. His reply was 4. I asked him how many times did he have to shoot each time. He said he was a little embarrassed that on the last fight he fired 3 shots, saying he got a little flustered. The third shot was unnecessary. I asked him what he carried. A 4 inch bbl 357 Combat Magnum, he replied. So he ended the hostilities with 1 or 2 shots. (By the way, he never missed). Today, no one can see themselves doing battle with less than a 15 shot magazine pistol. Except in competition, I cannot ever remember shooting more than 40 shots at one outing, usually three cylinders worth (18 rds) growing up. Is the firearm a status symbol, or is it a tool that requires using to be skilled? I shoot the big ones, but Don't forget the 22 rimfire. Stance, sight picture and trigger squeeze apply to all. I never load my auto with more than 6 rds, when practicing. If I know I am going to 'pull' a shot off center . . . I drop my arms, to rest and clear my mind. The I proceed. I am teaching muscle memory. In the end the mind controls the muscles to bring off a good shot. Good habits become consistency.



Interesting, my wife's 'go to' is the S&W Model 19 .357 and mine is a 1911 Combat Commander. When I practice, I always shoot about a box for pistol and for shotgun - at least 50 rounds for clays. 

I have access to Running Boar range for which I use one of my steel butt types with open sights. Shotgun is useful for that type of shooting - in context of practice - but sustained lead is better than swing through on steel targets with a rifle (for me).


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## Navalwarrior (Jul 15, 2018)

drgondog said:


> Interesting, my wife's 'go to' is the S&W Model 19 .357 and mine is a 1911 Combat Commander. When I practice, I always shoot about a box for pistol and for shotgun - at least 50 rounds for clays.
> 
> I have access to Running Boar range for which I use one of my steel butt types with open sights. Shotgun is useful for that type of shooting - in context of practice - but sustained lead is better than swing through on steel targets with a rifle (for me).


Resp:
Today, I shot in a match that required 124rds. So there are times when I do shoot many cartridges, just don't practice by shooting as much. Fatigue plays tricks on the mind, as if it has no patience. Not a good habit to become muscle memory. My mind thru routine keeps the muscles under control. By the time I was on the last two stages, I was tired. However, good muscle memory prevailed because that is what my brain only knew. 
I have shot center fire pistols since 1970. There was only one yr since then that I did not have access to a firearm, although armed men were all around. When I got home, I went to the range. I was impatient and wanted to 'yank' the 44's trigger. I fired 18 shots standing, slow fire at a 25 yd silhouette . . . where all landed in the ten ring. I was able to do this only by shear discipline; the strong side of the mind was telling me not to yank the trigger. I can actually shoot pretty fast, but only thru years of only shooting when things were 'right' enabled me to do so!' I read where a policeman, who's main job was the department's chief firearms instructor. To fool the mind in thinking it had complete control during a match, he counted from 1 to 8. When he touch the grip of his revolver . . he said 1 to himself, when the pistol was raised at about 45 degrees . . he said 2, when he fired the first shot . . he said 3, and so on until 8 . . . as it was time to reload! One night, when the city was under the grips of a serial killer, he was sent on patrol. His partner was driving when they turned into an alley with their lights off. When they decided to exit the vehicle, some movement a short distance caught his attention. Suddenly he caught the reflection of light on a pistol. Training from muscle memory kicked in. Resulting in 3 shots fired at three perps . . . with his mind ending its count at 5. He didn't choke because his mind was in complete control! My first year of pistol competition, I did not think about speed. Instead, I worked on technique. Speed gradually caught up.

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## Bucksnort101 (Oct 2, 2018)

Wasn't sure where to post this. Post in this thread, What cheered you up, or what annoyed you today. Could go either way.

Went to the local Outdoors Shop yesterday to buy one of these, 




a speedloader for a Ruger MkIV which run about $10, but they did not have any so I ended up walking out with one of these instead, 




S&W 586 Classic. Been looking for one for a while and was floating between a 4" and 6" model and whether to buy new or a used one. Bought new, but made sure the barrel was on straight (these have been known in the past to have canted barrels on them). Opted for the 6" model, .357 Magnum. This has a very nice trigger pull in single action, which should only get better with some break-in. Double action is a bit stiffer, but not to bad. 
Need to clean her up tonight and wait for the rain to stop so I can put some rounds through it.

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## Navalwarrior (Oct 2, 2018)

Bucksnort101 said:


> Wasn't sure where to post this. Post in this thread, What cheered you up, or what annoyed you today. Could go either way.
> 
> Went to the local Outdoors Shop yesterday to buy one of these,
> 
> ...


Resp:
I encourage every shooter/survivalist/neighbor who asked about what I recommend in pistols. My first is a 4" stainless 357. I show annually my revolver collection, and in the last four yrs or so, the guys who own 4 to whatever number of auto pistols, have asked for my recommendation for a single revolver. It handles shot cartridges when hiking, 38 wadcutters for target and training for new/young shooters. If you have to ask a neighbor for some ammo, the two most owned pistols are chambered for 9mm/38 Spl. Ruger also offers a Blackhawk in 357 w a second cylinder for 9mmx19 (Luger). A very practical setup.
Glad to see the 357 purchase. Well done!


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## Bucksnort101 (Oct 2, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Resp:
> I encourage every shooter/survivalist/neighbor who asked about what I recommend in pistols. My first is a 4" stainless 357. I show annually my revolver collection, and in the last four yrs or so, the guys who own 4 to whatever number of auto pistols, have asked for my recommendation for a single revolver. It handles shot cartridges when hiking, 38 wadcutters for target and training for new/young shooters. If you have to ask a neighbor for some ammo, the two most owned pistols are chambered for 9mm/38 Spl. Ruger also offers a Blackhawk in 357 w a second cylinder for 9mmx19 (Luger). I very practical setup.
> Glad to see the 357 purchase. Well done!



Exactly the reason I wanted a .357 Mag. Nice to be able to shoot a round (38 special) that is a bit more forgiving. I suppose for more power a .44 Mag would have been a better choice, but for just target shooting this should work well. 
I opted for a blued gun over stainless because I just like the look of a blued revolver.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 2, 2018)

Bucksnort101 said:


> Exactly the reason I wanted a .357 Mag. Nice to be able to shoot a round (38 special) that is a bit more forgiving. I suppose for more power a .44 Mag would have been a better choice, but for just target shooting this should work well.
> I opted for a blued gun over stainless because I just like the look of a blued revolver.


Resp:
I prefer blued as well, as I generally am not out when it is wet. But your next can be stainless.


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## Bucksnort101 (Oct 2, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Resp:
> I prefer blued as well, as I generally am not out when it is wet. But your next can be stainless.



Next is probably going to be a 1911. That's still a bit in the future, but I'm really thinking either a Dan Wesson Valor, or a Springfield Armory TRP. I like the looks of the Valor over the TRP (I don't care fore serrations on the front end of the slide), but being a lefty it would be nice to have the Ambi thumb safety that the TRP has.


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 2, 2018)

Dug out my old T/C Hawken and banged off a few rounds, just for old times sake. Shoots just as true as she ever did. Love those 370 Gr Maxi Balls!
Damn this f___ing spellcheck! Doesn't understand the word "Hawken", keeps changing it to "Hellen". Even when I override it, it waits until I hit "post", then changes it! Think I got it this time. Grrrr!
Wes
PS: SUCCESS!


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## XBe02Drvr (Oct 2, 2018)

Bucksnort101 said:


> Next is probably going to be a 1911. That's still a bit in the future, but I'm really thinking either a Dan Wesson Valor, or a Springfield Armory TRP.


Got to shoot a Springfield Armory 1911 at our local sports store's range day promotion last spring. $3 for a full clip, $5 gets you two. Not bad. It actually shot where it was pointed, not like the sloppy slut of parts I tried to qualify on in the Navy.
The Senior Chief Gunners Mate who took us out to the range said, after none of us qualified: "The lesson here is not how to shoot the .45, it's how important it is when you're carrying one on Shore Patrol duty, to be creative in managing situations so you DON'T have to shoot it! It's more risky to your shipmates and civilian bystanders then it is to a potential assailant."
Cheers,
Wes


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## soulezoo (Oct 2, 2018)

Too many to list. I'll just mention favorite each class:

Semi auto rifle: FN FAL Para
Bolt rifle: (toss up) Tikka T3x Tac a1 in 6.5 cm/Weatherby MkV in .300 Wby
Shotgun Perazzi 12ga. Trap
Revolver Colt Python, 6" blued
Semi Auto: Bren Ten (one of the first 100 made)


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 2, 2018)

Bucksnort101 said:


> Next is probably going to be a 1911. That's still a bit in the future, but I'm really thinking either a Dan Wesson Valor, or a Springfield Armory TRP. I like the looks of the Valor over the TRP (I don't care fore serrations on the front end of the slide), but being a lefty it would be nice to have the Ambi thumb safety that the TRP has.


Resp:
My second pistol was an old GI 1911A1 made up of parts. For grips I put on the Pachmyr wraparound (front frame). They aren't pretty, but your hand will not slide down the grip, as I found it did on my second 1911 with standard grips. In my book, 45s are never a mistake. If you can master the 1911, you can pretty much shoot any pistol.


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## Bucksnort101 (Oct 2, 2018)

I had a couple Ruger SR1911's, not bad for the price, but the last one had a pretty sloppy slide fit and the trigger was way too light. Going to get something a little better next time. From what I've read the Dan Wesson's give you good bang for the buck, but they are hard to come by at local shops.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 2, 2018)

Bucksnort101 said:


> I had a couple Ruger SR1911's, not bad for the price, but the last one had a pretty sloppy slide fit and the trigger was way too light. Going to get something a little better next time. From what I've read the Dan Wesson's give you good bang for the buck, but they are hard to come by at local shops.


Resp:
Anybody have any experience w Remington's R 1911?


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 3, 2018)

Hello All,

So many cool topics covered here and I like most of them!
My first handgun was a 4 inch Blued .357 Magnum. It seemed like a pretty practical choice and has worked pretty well as long as I didn't really mess with it. I didn't have a choice at the time, but if I did, I should have gotten the gun in stainless instead of blue. The guns last longer in stainless if you fire a lot of full power ammunition. I figure I have between 8,000 and 9,000 rounds (closer to 9) through mine now and the forcing cone shows some serious signs of erosion and the top strap shows a bit of wear as well. The Stainless version of the same gun hasn't been shot quite as much but shows almost no wear. The stainless steel seems to be more resistant to gas cutting.

Hard to go wrong with picking a M1911. My Wife and I have several of various makes.
Just be careful though because every brand seems to come with its share of problem areas though just about all of them can be made to run reliably with a little work. They can also be pretty horrible or amazing for accuracy but a replacement match grade barrel will usually fix that problem and they are not hard to install. If I were to get yet another, It would be a toss up between new and used because I have found that unless the seller is a serious shooter the chances are pretty good that the gun hasn't been used much. I have come across a couple (one is my Wife's gun) that showed distinct signs that they had not even been broken in before I bought them and her gun was not that expensive and came with a pretty good holster. (The first few rounds had lots of malfunctions which cleared up by the time one box of ammunition was through the gun.) Almost all the new guns in my experience need some minor work anyway.
If you buy used and even if you buy new, make sure you do a good inspection. Some manufacturers really have no concept about how the gun is supposed to run and will shave metal from the Frame Ramp in to fit the barrel. I have seen this on a brand new Charles Daly gun made in the Philippines. Dimensions are very critical there, so if someone messed with the frame, you might have to over throat the barrel or have it machined for a ramped barrel. Some of the old Auto-Ordnance guns have issues with the disconnector notch being slightly misaligned. A friend of mine had a stainless gun (AMT maybe?) that had issues with the fit of the pins around the safety and something about the mainspring housing was not right. I helped him get the gun to run reliably anyway, but it was not a matter of drop in parts.
Be careful about ambidextrous safeties. I am always suspicious about those that are held in place only by a grip panel. I seem to remember the King's Gun Works had a better system without wood pieces holding the parts in place.

- Ivan.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 5, 2018)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello All,
> 
> So many cool topics covered here and I like most of them!
> My first handgun was a 4 inch Blued .357 Magnum. It seemed like a pretty practical choice and has worked pretty well as long as I didn't really mess with it. I didn't have a choice at the time, but if I did, I should have gotten the gun in stainless instead of blue. The guns last longer in stainless if you fire a lot of full power ammunition. I figure I have between 8,000 and 9,000 rounds (closer to 9) through mine now and the forcing cone shows some serious signs of erosion and the top strap shows a bit of wear as well. The Stainless version of the same gun hasn't been shot quite as much but shows almost no wear. The stainless steel seems to be more resistant to gas cutting.
> ...


Ivan,
My youth was many decade ago. We spoke little about pistol use in the so called 'combat' setting. One reason we shot 38s (& later 357, 44 and 45s) in addition to 22LR in pistols was because we cast our own bullets from old wheel weights (at local gas station), powder and primers were cheap. It required a fair amount of work, so it kept us focused when we had free time. PS. My vocabulary increased by reading technical Journals on Handloading, metallurgy, pressures, etc.. So much so I scored well on college entrance exams! 
You can cast bullets fairly easy for the old pre WWI sporting rifles, but one used up more powder and got fewer reloads in rifle cases. We also rarely shot rapid fire, as to do so fails to teach disciplined gun handling. It looks cool on TV but not on paper. 
Have fun. Be safe. Keep your powder dry!


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 6, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Ivan,
> My youth was many decade ago. We spoke little about pistol use in the so called 'combat' setting. One reason we shot 38s (& later 357, 44 and 45s) in addition to 22LR in pistols was because we cast our own bullets from old wheel weights (at local gas station), powder and primers were cheap. It required a fair amount of work, so it kept us focused when we had free time. PS. My vocabulary increased by reading technical Journals on Handloading, metallurgy, pressures, etc.. So much so I scored well on college entrance exams!
> You can cast bullets fairly easy for the old pre WWI sporting rifles, but one used up more powder and got fewer reloads in rifle cases. We also rarely shot rapid fire, as to do so fails to teach disciplined gun handling. It looks cool on TV but not on paper.
> Have fun. Be safe. Keep your powder dry!



Hello Navalwarrior,
That must have been a lot time ago before the GCA 1968 limited who could purchase a gun. I didn't own a rifle until age 18 or so and didn't own a handgun until I graduated college..... But I did learn how to shoot a rifle in New York City!

With bullet casting, I also used wheel weights because they were cheap / free. They didn't work all that well in my .357 Magnum because they tended to lead up the barrel pretty badly. By the time I reduced velocity down to where they did not lead up, it didn't seem worthwhile any more.
They worked much better with .45 and reduced .44 Magnum loads but here the question was whether they were worth the time to do. When I shoot handguns, I tend to shoot several boxes of ammunition at a time.
With my own cast bullets, I was getting superb quality, but most of the time, superb accuracy in a handgun goes unnoticed. If my gun can hold a 1 inch group at 25 yards off the bench or a 2 inch group makes no difference if I am shooting from a standing position! Casting for handguns was using up my lead supply way too fast especially with a 6 cavity mould.
Buying cast bullets gave me quality quite good enough for what I was doing.

Now with RIFLES, on the other hand, the quality of cast bullets is quite noticeable and buying good cast bullets is either expensive or impossible. As before, I stick with bullet (boolit) configurations that do not require anything special such as a gas check.
With .45 caliber rifle (.45-70), I was getting my best results with a Lee 450 Grain bullet though I tried as low as a 400 Grain and as high as a 535 Grain Postell bullet. Interestingly, I was getting no leading even when running these bullets up to about 1500 fps but the same wheel weight bullets were leading pretty seriously by 1150-1200 fps. My theory is that the revolver jump from cylinder to forcing cone has something to do with it.
I didn't go much higher than 1500 fps because the recoil made shooting not a lot of fun at that point.
I also did some experimenting with a .40-65 rifle but don't recall the specific bullets I used. I knew they are much lighter which was the point of the caliber which is just a necked down .45-70.

I also did quite a bit of experimenting with casting for Black Powder 1859 Sharps replicas. Results were generally pretty good when the guns and moulds were more or less in agreement but there was a lot more scatter with the results.

I did find a good use for .45 caliber cast bullets in the end. In a .45 ACP, they go away too fast, but they function just fine in the .44 caliber Black Powder Revolvers and are quite accurate as well. They can be use as cast and grease over the bullet is sufficient lube.

-Ivan.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 6, 2018)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello Navalwarrior,
> That must have been a lot time ago before the GCA 1968 limited who could purchase a gun. I didn't own a rifle until age 18 or so and didn't own a handgun until I graduated college..... But I did learn how to shoot a rifle in New York City!
> 
> With bullet casting, I also used wheel weights because they were cheap / free. They didn't work all that well in my .357 Magnum because they tended to lead up the barrel pretty badly. By the time I reduced velocity down to where they did not lead up, it didn't seem worthwhile any more.
> ...


Resp: You covered many aspects of shooting, which is excellent. I am not much into watching the 'idiot box' so I have plenty of time to load.
My father trusted me enough to sign for them. Not sure what amount several boxes is. In my day all pistol rounds came 50 to a box. The only time I shot more than 50 rds was when I shot the PPC, which was several times a yr (1978-2001). 7, 25, 50, then back to 15 yards equaled 60 rds. I normally used cast 150 gr SWC. For service matches I used Rem factory 158 gr LSWC HP +P. I do Cowboy Action Shooting once a month now. FUN! Shoot autos @ once every 3 mos, but not more than 16 rds. I do practice reloading with dummy rounds over my bed when no one is home, to reinforce muscle memory.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 7, 2018)

Hello Navalwarrior,
Several boxes of pistol ammunition is about what you would expect. Probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of 150 rounds, but it doesn't seem like that much because if I am shooting pistol, there are usually at least two guns. I just about always shoot a full box of 50 at a time because it doesn't make sense to load less than 50 rounds of pistol ammunition at a time if you have already worked up the loads.
It is pretty quick with a Dillon 550 progressive press and I have two of them set up.
One is for Large Primer and one is for Small because I got tired of having to switch and adjust the primer feeds.

I used to go out to the range after work every Friday at least during the Summer months and spend about 2 hours or so there.
In the Winter, it got dark too early to make that kind of thing worthwhile because the ranges I went to were outdoors.
When I was shooting a .22 pistol, I generally shot A LOT.
I would try to see how fast I could knock down 6 steel plates at 25 yards and would have about 4 magazines in front of me and not keep track of how many rounds were left in the gun. The point was that when the gun ran dry, it was not predictable and I would have to immediately reload and continue on the next plate.
If I missed, I just had to keep shooting until I knocked the plate down.
What was really cool was that there were a couple times when I made a hit but the plate did not fall fast enough and I made a second hit as it was falling.
I figure I was burning about 300 rounds on an average session and would go through an entire carton of the Federal .22 which was 550 rounds in one trip.

The .22 pistol I was using was inexpensive and nothing to look at but was incredibly accurate.... When it was new.
When I first got it, I was able to shoot 10 round groups that were 3/4 inch center to center at 25 yards with Remington Target ammunition from the bench.
With Remington High Velocity, it was doing around 1 inch groups and didn't seem to like other brands as much.
I believe after 15,000 rounds or so, it needs a new firing pin and the accuracy isn't nearly as good as when it was new.
Then again, my eyesight isn't as good as when it was new either!
Now this is the sad part: I didn't realise how unusual this level of accuracy was at the time. When this gun started malfunctioning, I could tell the firing pin strikes were light and the firing pin tip and breech face were worn as was the feed ramp on the barrel. I figured I would just buy a new gun, so I bought a higher grade version. The accuracy of the new gun wasn't bad but was never quite as good as the first one.

- Ivan.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 7, 2018)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello Navalwarrior,
> Several boxes of pistol ammunition is about what you would expect. Probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of 150 rounds, but it doesn't seem like that much because if I am shooting pistol, there are usually at least two guns. I just about always shoot a full box of 50 at a time because it doesn't make sense to load less than 50 rounds of pistol ammunition at a time if you have already worked up the loads.
> It is pretty quick with a Dillon 550 progressive press and I have two of them set up.
> One is for Large Primer and one is for Small because I got tired of having to switch and adjust the primer feeds.
> ...


Resp:
I am glad you were/are able to shoot frequently. Too many people try (my opinion) to shoot infrequently, by making it up by increasing the number of shots fired. Too me it teaches bad habits, as when you are tired . . .and still have rds in the magazine . . . one has a tendency to just fire them up. So when I teach, I always use a single stack Mag pistol or revolver. Too hard to correct bad habits, so shooting sessions involve fewer rds fired.
I also 'spike' the 2nd or 3rd magazine with a dummy rd to show the shooter he/she is pulling the down down/left etc in anticipation of the pistol discharge. Most R handlers pull down and L. 
Keep your powder dry!


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## Shortround6 (Oct 7, 2018)

One of the greatest training aids ever made. 





Triggers usually aren't too bad and all it does is release the compressed air (one stroke of the pump) so you can really see the sights bobble if you have a heavy (or energetic ) trigger finger 
In fact under some lighting conditions you can see the pellet in flight for even more reinforcement. 
any movement of the "gun" on firing is the shooter, you would need very good instruments to detect any recoil

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## michael rauls (Oct 7, 2018)

I am lucky to own what are to me, the two most important guns in the world.
One is a 22 pump action rifle that belonged to my grandfather when he was a child. His father died whan he was about 12 and it became his responsibility to provided for the family. One of the ways he did this was by hunting small game around there home in Wyoming. I feel verry lucky to have the verry rifle he used.
It's unique. Never seen another one like it. Its verry small. Looks like it was specifically built for a child.
The other is a high standard 22 target pistol that he and my grandmother taught me to shoot with.
Also have a 870 pump shotgun but of course it doesn't have any of the sentimental value of the othe two.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 7, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Resp:
> I am glad you were/are able to shoot frequently. Too many people try (my opinion) to shoot infrequently, by making it up by increasing the number of shots fired. Too me it teaches bad habits, as when you are tired . . .and still have rds in the magazine . . . one has a tendency to just fire them up. So when I teach, I always use a single stack Mag pistol or revolver. Too hard to correct bad habits, so shooting sessions involve fewer rds fired.
> I also 'spike' the 2nd or 3rd magazine with a dummy rd to show the shooter he/she is pulling the down down/left etc in anticipation of the pistol discharge. Most R handlers pull down and L.
> Keep your powder dry!


Cont:
Forgot to mention the importance of replacing the 'recoil spring' (slows slide during recoil & returns it to full battery) to keep the slide from battering/cracking frame. If I am thinking of buying a 10+ yr old automatic, I check on line to see if I can get new replacement springs before purchasing it. I found new springs (Kit) for a 1937 produced pistol, so I went back and bought it.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 7, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> ...One is a 22 pump action rifle that belonged to my grandfather when he was a child. His father died whan he was about 12 and it became his responsibility to provided for the family. One of the ways he did this was by hunting small game around there home in Wyoming. I feel verry lucky to have the verry rifle he used.
> It's unique. Never seen another one like it. Its verry small. Looks like it was specifically built for a child...


Sounds like that .22 rifle might be either a Remington Model 12 or a Winchester Model 62.


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## Tieleader (Oct 7, 2018)

It might be hard to match this guy's collection...


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 7, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Resp:
> I am glad you were/are able to shoot frequently. Too many people try (my opinion) to shoot infrequently, by making it up by increasing the number of shots fired. Too me it teaches bad habits, as when you are tired . . .and still have rds in the magazine . . . one has a tendency to just fire them up. So when I teach, I always use a single stack Mag pistol or revolver. Too hard to correct bad habits, so shooting sessions involve fewer rds fired.
> I also 'spike' the 2nd or 3rd magazine with a dummy rd to show the shooter he/she is pulling the down down/left etc in anticipation of the pistol discharge. Most R handlers pull down and L.
> Keep your powder dry!



I don't actually do much shooting these days, but for a few years, just about everything revolved around shooting practice, testing and experimentation. At one range, I would go there every Tuesday evening and share the range with a group of Black Powder shooters. It was amusing that at times I was shooting a semi auto rifle next to either a Match Lock or Flintlock.
These were guys that often only shot about 3 to 5 rounds for the entire evening and then spent more time cleaning than shooting.
One of the things I learned from shooting "Black Powder" was that actual Black Powder is much more erosive than Pyrodex.
I found that out because with the Sharps, I was shooting more in one range session than some of these guys would shoot in several years. The breech seals are also quite visible on a Sharps replica.

What kinds of pistols were you using for instruction?

- Ivan.


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## michael rauls (Oct 8, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> Sounds like that .22 rifle might be either a Remington Model 12 or a Winchester Model 62.


Cant find a model number on it but on the barrel it says Remington - pedersons patent number 1909 jan 5 and it says Remington umc on the butplate.
Amazingly it is still in perfect working order if a little beat up.

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## michael rauls (Oct 8, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> Sounds like that .22 rifle might be either a Remington Model 12 or a Winchester Model 62.


Yes you were right. I Googled Remington model 12 and sure enough thats it.
Thanks for pointing me the right direction on that. I've wondered but didn't know enough to start a search. For some reason I never thought to ask my grandfather about that while he was alive. I guess I was so taken with the history of the particular rifle I never really thought about the type in general. Thanks again!

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## GrauGeist (Oct 8, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Yes you were right. I Googled Remington model 12 and sure enough thats it.
> Thanks for pointing me the right direction on that. I've wondered but didn't know enough to start a search. For some reason I never thought to ask my grandfather about that while he was alive. I guess I was so taken with the history of the particular rifle I never really thought about the type in general. Thanks again!


You're welcome!
The popular .22 "Junior" and "Gallery" rifles of the day were Remington, Winchester and Savage.

My stepdad had a pristine Remington Model 12 for ages and it was a nail-driver.

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## Navalwarrior (Oct 8, 2018)

Ivan1GFP said:


> I don't actually do much shooting these days, but for a few years, just about everything revolved around shooting practice, testing and experimentation. At one range, I would go there every Tuesday evening and share the range with a group of Black Powder shooters. It was amusing that at times I was shooting a semi auto rifle next to either a Match Lock or Flintlock.
> These were guys that often only shot about 3 to 5 rounds for the entire evening and then spent more time cleaning than shooting.
> One of the things I learned from shooting "Black Powder" was that actual Black Powder is much more erosive than Pyrodex.
> I found that out because with the Sharps, I was shooting more in one range session than some of these guys would shoot in several years. The breech seals are also quite visible on a Sharps replica.
> ...


Resp:
I am a very good rifle shot, but when I witnessed several yrs ago falling block (Sharps, etc), rolling block and trapdoor rifles being shot at 200 to 600 meters . . . I had a wake up call. Peep sights are extremely precise, just that 'lighting' must be good to see distant targets. For my scout marksmanship merit badge, I shot a Savage 22 with a global front, in addition to the rear peep. However, if I remember correctly the distance was 50 ft.
The last person I trained (early this yr) I used a SIG P6 (225). Normally I use a K frame S&W 38 with 4 inch bbl, but this girl grew up on a farm so was a good rifle shot, and knew to to properly handle guns (no unsafe behavior here). She had applied for a Federal LE position, which used one of the new fangelled composite autos. So She was ahead of most people learning to shoot. We shot once a wk (sometimes twice) where she would load and shoot 4 mags. One day she couldn't focus, so we stopped after 2 mags. I do not teach at 7 yards anymore, as it gives a false sense of skill. 10 yards is my starting point, then progress to 25 yards. If I had time (and they had the desire) I would show/teach them out to 50yrds.


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## Glider (Oct 8, 2018)

It would be wrong to say that I owned one, but in the late 1970's I did have the use a civilian version of the L42, which at the time was the standard sniper rifle of the British Army. The differences were minor, the magazine was blocked off so each shell had to be loaded manually and out of choice I used a peep sight, not a telescopic sight.

We found a photo of me on the 700 yard range at Bisley. Its a poor photo but you can see that in competition the rifles were held. They were not rested on anything and we didn't use a bipod. Everyone used to get upset about the way I crossed my feet, but it worked for me.

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## michael rauls (Oct 8, 2018)

Glider said:


> It would be wrong to say that I owned one, but in the late 1970's I did have the use a civilian version of the L42, which at the time was the standard sniper rifle of the British Army. The differences were minor, the magazine was blocked off so each shell had to be loaded manually and out of choice I used a peep sight, not a telescopic sight.
> 
> We found a photo of me on the 700 yard range at Bisley. Its a poor photo but you can see that in competition the rifles were held. They were not rested on anything and we didn't use a bipod. Everyone used to get upset about the way I crossed my feet, but it worked for me.
> View attachment 512420


Verry cool shot( so to speak). The best long range rifle I ever owned was an M1 Garanad. Was really something the accuracy even at 300 yards which is about as far as I can shoot.
Wish I still had that gun. Traded it for a guitar. Don't know what I was thinking.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 8, 2018)

Glider said:


> It would be wrong to say that I owned one, but in the late 1970's I did have the use a civilian version of the L42, which at the time was the standard sniper rifle of the British Army. The differences were minor, the magazine was blocked off so each shell had to be loaded manually and out of choice I used a peep sight, not a telescopic sight.
> 
> We found a photo of me on the 700 yard range at Bisley. Its a poor photo but you can see that in competition the rifles were held. They were not rested on anything and we didn't use a bipod. Everyone used to get upset about the way I crossed my feet, *but it worked for me*.
> View attachment 512420



If it works go with it. 
People used to get upset with me for wearing loafers to shoot standing in instead fancy German shooting boots. 
since I beat over 1/2 of the people using the boots (and knew I would never beat some of the ones who were) I went with it.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 9, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> Verry cool shot( so to speak). The best long range rifle I ever owned was an M1 Garanad. Was really something the accuracy even at 300 yards which is about as far as I can shoot.
> Wish I still had that gun. Traded it for a guitar. Don't know what I was thinking.


Resp:
Many years ago, a friend and I were on the 100 yard range. I had a scoped Mauser 308 and he a 'stock' M1 Garand. I spotted as he proceeded to punch out the center of a 4 inch circle, in the off-hand position. As he continued to fire, shooters (all were firing scoped rifles from the bench) stopped firing . . as I continued to call out the shots. I think most of those shooters saw what can be done with a rifle!


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## Shortround6 (Oct 9, 2018)

I worked at a commercial range part time for a number of years. 50 firing points at 200 yards. about 25 firing points at 25-50 yds and 95 firing points at 50-100yds (the back stop berm was at 100yds). 10 indoor points at 50ft and feild you could shoot shotguns in. I was the employee often designated to sight in customers rifles. Some days I would arrive around lunch time, sight in a couple of rifles and then get ready to coach a high school rifle team until 5pm. If no rifles to sight in I helped in the gun shop (and sometimes mounted scopes if all it took was a screwdriver, we had no machinery and were not gunsmiths). 
My opinion of the "average" hunter's marksmanship is not high. 
I also know that while the use of a "bore sighter" can sometimes be spot on it can also be off by up to two feet at 100yds. We charged for bore sighting with the guarantee that if the gun wasn't on "paper" we would come out of the shop to the range and either spot the shots and correct or fire it ourselves to get the impact close enough for the customer to finish. One of the more "interesting" jobs was sighting in the scopes on a pair of Krieghoff over under rifles for a husband and wife. Hers was in .375 H&H and his was a .416 of some variety. With ammo near 100 dollars a box (over 20 years ago) for the .416 (and the recoil of firing off the bench) getting a decent groups quick was a challenge and the two barrels did NOT hit to the same point although certainly close enough for hunting at any range you would use those guns for.

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## Navalwarrior (Oct 9, 2018)

Shortround6 said:


> I worked at a commercial range part time for a number of years. 50 firing points at 200 yards. about 25 firing points at 25-50 yds and 95 firing points at 50-100yds (the back stop berm was at 100yds). 10 indoor points at 50ft and feild you could shoot shotguns in. I was the employee often designated to sight in customers rifles. Some days I would arrive around lunch time, sight in a couple of rifles and then get ready to coach a high school rifle team until 5pm. If no rifles to sight in I helped in the gun shop (and sometimes mounted scopes if all it took was a screwdriver, we had no machinery and were not gunsmiths).
> My opinion of the "average" hunter's marksmanship is not high.
> I also know that while the use of a "bore sighter" can sometimes be spot on it can also be off by up to two feet at 100yds. We charged for bore sighting with the guarantee that if the gun wasn't on "paper" we would come out of the shop to the range and either spot the shots and correct or fire it ourselves to get the impact close enough for the customer to finish. One of the more "interesting" jobs was sighting in the scopes on a pair of Krieghoff over under rifles for a husband and wife. Hers was in .375 H&H and his was a .416 of some variety. With ammo near 100 dollars a box (over 20 years ago) for the .416 (and the recoil of firing off the bench) getting a decent groups quick was a challenge and the two barrels did NOT hit to the same point although certainly close enough for hunting at any range you would use those guns for.


Resp:
Agree with you on the skill of average rifleman. For some reason it seems more people are worried about recoil. One reason as when shooting from the bench, they tend to bend down toward the rifle which puts the top part of their shoulder (where there is little muscle) against the butt. I always stack extra bags on the bench which makes me sit up straight, enabling more shoulder muscle to absorb the rifle's movement. I also do not not stiffen but relax and let the rifle and shoulder move rearward. When shooting my 300 WM I substitute a lesser recoiling rifle between groups fired. For example; I would shoot my 308 (1 fouling with 3 shot group) and then switch to the 300 WM. Normally, the breakdown at the end of my shooting session would be: 1 fouling shot for each rifle (for 2 total). 3 or 4 three shot groups for the 308, and two 3 shot groups for the 300.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 9, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Resp:
> I am a very good rifle shot, but when I witnessed several yrs ago falling block (Sharps, etc), rolling block and trapdoor rifles being shot at 200 to 600 meters . . . I had a wake up call. Peep sights are extremely precise, just that 'lighting' must be good to see distant targets. For my scout marksmanship merit badge, I shot a Savage 22 with a global front, in addition to the rear peep. However, if I remember correctly the distance was 50 ft.
> The last person I trained (early this yr) I used a SIG P6 (225). Normally I use a K frame S&W 38 with 4 inch bbl, but this girl grew up on a farm so was a good rifle shot, and knew to to properly handle guns (no unsafe behavior here). She had applied for a Federal LE position, which used one of the new fangelled composite autos. So She was ahead of most people learning to shoot. We shot once a wk (sometimes twice) where she would load and shoot 4 mags. One day she couldn't focus, so we stopped after 2 mags. I do not teach at 7 yards anymore, as it gives a false sense of skill. 10 yards is my starting point, then progress to 25 yards. If I had time (and they had the desire) I would show/teach them out to 50yrds.



Hello Navalwarrior,

I was just about to say none of the single shots that I own have a telescopic sight but then realised that there is a lone Ruger No. 1 that I believe has a telescope. I haven't messed with it in years and never played with it much when I got it so I don't really remember what condition I left it in. The Sharps' and Winchester guns all have iron sight. I know there is a Soule sight on at least one gun and there is a piece of cr*p sight on a rather plain Sharps rifle but fancy sights would look out of place on that gun.
I have found that the Pedersoli High Grade micrometer sights are a pretty good replacement and don't look too out of place.
They need a bit of cleaning up before mounting, but seem reliable and accurate to me.

I found with those iron sights, I was able to get down to about 1.25 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards but never did any better. I have done better with iron sights on more modern rifles, but not reliably. The problem is that I really don't know if the accuracy limitation is me, the ammunition or the gun. 1.25 inch groups actually look pretty good when the holes are .45 caliber; Just about everything is touching.

I actually have a P6 as well, but have never shot it much. It seems to feel better than the double stack guns but I just don't like the SIG DA trigger very much.

Hello Shortround6,

My Son tried out "Precision Rifle" (Olympic Style Air Rifle) shooting a couple years ago.
When he started, one of the coaches suggested to him that he should wear high lace up boots when shooting because it would immobilize his ankle joints and might make him a bit more steady from the standing position.
Maybe there is something to wearing heavy military style boots.

- Ivan.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 9, 2018)

You are right about the angle (leaning forward) but I was limited by the height of benches (sturdy, used telephone poles for legs on some of them) and bench tripod sandbags available. 
As a note on both recoil and how holding a gun can affect impact I was at a cast bullet silhouette mach one time where you could enter as many times as you wanted with an additional entry fee each time and ran out of ammo. A Friend offered to let me use his Winchester model 70 in .458 magnum (the cast lead bullet load he used made mcu closer to a 45-70) and while we could swap the gun back and forth at the different distances without too much trouble the rams at 200 meters were a disaster. He consistently shot under and I consistently shot over. Then his girlfriend made the observation that when I held the gun and fired it the muzzle rose about twice as high as when he fired it. It may not have solved the problem but it explained it. 1 1/2 to 2 foot difference in impact.


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## Torch (Oct 9, 2018)

Since I hunt in Colorado in an area where shots can reach out to 300-400 yards it's imperative that you set up your rifle(mine is a Sako Finnlight .300wsm) with the right ammo. Can take time and some expense but it's worth it. Also someone mentioned setting up at the bench, very important. Also how you let your rifle recoil is crucial also with no interference or snagging from the front sling attachment or let the rifle come off the bag or what ever your using to sight in. 2 inches high at 100 yards usually works well and with hand loads and or premium ammo in the right weather conditions you can attain 1/1.5 inch groups pretty easily.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 9, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Resp:
> Agree with you on the skill of average rifleman. For some reason it seems more people are worried about recoil. One reason as when shooting from the bench, they tend to bend down toward the rifle which puts the top part of their shoulder (where there is little muscle) against the butt. I always stack extra bags on the bench which makes me sit up straight, enabling more shoulder muscle to absorb the rifle's movement. I also do not not stiffen but relax and let the rifle and shoulder move rearward. When shooting my 300 WM I substitute a lesser recoiling rifle between groups fired. For example; I would shoot my 308 (1 fouling with 3 shot group) and then switch to the 300 WM. Normally, the breakdown at the end of my shooting session would be: 1 fouling shot for each rifle (for 2 total). 3 or 4 three shot groups for the 308, and two 3 shot groups for the 300.



Different guns seem to require different holds to shoot their best.
During the Tuesday evening range sessions, an old Air Force Colonel also was there at times.
He was a Benchrest shooter, so his typical rifle was about 25 to 30 pounds and firing 6 mm PPC.
Shooting his rifles was much like setting up an artillery piece, with elevation and Windage in the rests that he used.
There was no contact at all with the gun when it was fired, so it would free-recoil.
For him, a 1/4 inch group at 100 yards was extremely poor performance.
Obviously the technique worked for this kind of rifle.
I have done quite a bit of shooting with M14 / M1A semi auto .308s and much of the time I use high power telescopes because without them, I usually can't shoot to the capability of the gun. Scopes also let me hold well enough to distinguish small differences in accuracy between different loads that I might be testing.
One of the things I observed pretty early on was that the M14 type guns needed to be held VERY tight to shoot well.
With a tight sling and lots of tension into the shoulder, I can see the scope reticle bounce on the target in time with my heartbeat.
My technique could also probably use some improvement and I could also see the slight wobble from muscle tension.
The interesting thing was that even with this slight wobble and bounce from my heartbeat, I shoot measureably smaller groups with a tight hold than with a looser hold where the scope reticle is very steady.
With a scope, the gun is 14.5 pounds, so it is fairly heavy for a .308 Winchester.
I also have a bolt action .308 Winchester of the same weight and comparable optics which seems to be much less sensitive to how it is held.

I treat the .300 Winchester the same way I treat the .44 Magnum. Full power loads are unpleasant especially if you run through as many rounds as I do in a session. I tend to load them a bit light (168 grain bullet at 2950 fps or so) and also follow the pattern used by the Naval Surface Warfare folks: The rounds are loaded considerably longer than SAAMI OAL but still fit in the magazine box without issues. Hopefully the lighter loads will give a bit better barrel life than is typical for the Magnum calibers. The only thing I have done to the rifle other than mount a telescope was to take a sharp edge off the feed ramp where bullets were getting scraped while chambering.
This gun also doesn't seem to be very sensitive to how it is held but is a bit lighter than the .308Ws.

- Ivan.


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## Glider (Oct 9, 2018)

When coaching we used to train people to slow their heart rate so they could shoot between heartbeats. That said if it is visibly moving you may want to try moving position. Normally the first point I would check is the wrist.
As for the boots the most important was a good shooting jacket. Trousers and boots far less important and for obvious reasons don't apply for prone shooting.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 9, 2018)

Glider said:


> When coaching we used to train people to slow their heart rate so they could shoot between heartbeats. That said if it is visibly moving you may want to try moving position. Normally the first point I would check is the wrist.
> As for the boots the most important was a good shooting jacket. Trousers and boots far less important and for obvious reasons don't apply for prone shooting.



Shooting between heartbeats. Now that would be a trick to observe! Perhaps you really meant between breaths?
The sling would contact the back of my wrist. I believe the heartbeat was because of the pressure against the shoulder muscles.
Now keep in mind that I was typically using a 20 X telescope and the bounce was comparable to the width of the cross hair on the scope. In other words, it wasn't much from an angular standpoint and by my estimate was making under 1/8 inch difference on the target at 100 yards. Without a high power scope, this would not even be visible on the target.
It wouldn't do for a Benchrest gun, but I was shooting service rifle types.

I never had quite the same level of success with the M1 Garand as I did with the other service rifles.

- Ivan.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 9, 2018)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello Shortround6,
> 
> My Son tried out "Precision Rifle" (Olympic Style Air Rifle) shooting a couple years ago.
> When he started, one of the coaches suggested to him that he should wear high lace up boots when shooting because it would immobilize his ankle joints and might make him a bit more steady from the standing position.
> Maybe there is something to wearing heavy military style boots.



That is theory alright. I know back in the 50s and early 60s some people would wear the old fashion leather ski boots (you can't use the modern plastic ones as the they have a built in bend at the ankle).

I am not saying they are really wrong, just that the difference may not be all that great. In the Olympics one point out of 600 may be the difference between getting a medal or not. But for most of us league shooters it just seemed a lot bother, I could go to a weekly league match with my rifle in a soft case over my shoulder and duffle bag with my jacket, mat and other accessories and watch other people drag in gun cases with rollers on one end and equipment bags that would do a hockey goalie proud ( some of them were hockey bags). League matches were either 20 shots or 30 shots depending on 4 pos or 3 pos.
I also found (secret) that on a grass firing line (outdoor shooting) it is a lot easier to find a couple of spots for your ball and heel of each foot with a loafer or normal shoe/boot sole and heel that in those almost totally flat rigid soled boots. Doesn't matter if your ankles are held stiff if the bottom of your shoe/boot/foot is rocking.

A lot of people try to "buy" points using the most trick gear or accessories. Until you get to the top 10% or so it doesn't make much difference although I guess if you are going to continue on you might as well start using all the do-das that you will wind up using. It might actually slow progress in the beginning as so much "stuff" can be a distraction.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 9, 2018)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Shooting between heartbeats. Now that would be a trick to observe! Perhaps you really meant between breaths?
> The sling would contact the back of my wrist. I believe the heartbeat was because of the pressure against the shoulder muscles.
> Now keep in mind that I was typically using a 20 X telescope and the bounce was comparable to the width of the cross hair on the scope.



If the sling went around the upper arm you may have been picking up the pulse from the artery in the arm. Middle of the upper arm is the worst, high or low is better. If I had a small area of wobble I just went with it. Trying to fire in between pulses or when the gun was "stationary" often lead to grabbing at the trigger and pulled shots.
I was looking for a technique that would work for 20-40 shots in row. 9 great and 1 oops does not beat 10 good shots. Some people may be able to string together a long series of great shots, I couldn't so I went with long series of good shots.


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## Glider (Oct 9, 2018)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Shooting between heartbeats. Now that would be a trick to observe! Perhaps you really meant between breaths?
> 
> - Ivan.


No, I meant what I said, shooting between heart beats. Often used at international level in both rifle and pistol shooting and taught in the UK at county level.
For myself the difficult part wasn't the reduction in the heartbeat, the problem was keeping it there to take the shot. Never did manage it which is why I was a better coach than shot.

As an aside I did use it once when I was in hospital. There was one nurse who was an absolute terror, always complaining . She took me for an ECG and I couldn't resist the temptation. Every time she left the room I would slow it down and increase it when she returned. The look on her face when she reviewed the result was a picture.

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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 9, 2018)

Hello Shortround6,

This Precision Rifle program did produce the last Olympic champion, so I figure at least some of the coaches know their business.
I also noticed that I was a much more experienced rifleman than a couple of the coaches though that doesn't mean I know anything about coaching at all (which I do not).
Yes, the sling did go over the upper arm and that might be a source of the pulse. In any case, I could only see the effect with a telescope on the rifle. 
When firing with NM sights, it was in the noise and I don't think I can tell the difference between ammunition that was shooting 1/4 inch better or worse. Off the bench or with sandbags, 1/2 inch gets noticeable.
If I am standing, then you can load the magazine with the lousiest ball ammunition available and it would not show in my scores.
I got out of shooting the service rifle matches pretty early because it seemed to be too much of a game and exploiting the rules.
WHY should a semi auto rifle be single loaded with rounds that can't even fit into the magazine for the slow fire stages?
I also found it amusing that every rifle could shoot "Under an inch" but extremely few rifles could actually demonstrate this ability on demand even if given plenty of chances. It was also amusing how few people actually knew any significant detail about what their ammunition was actually doing in their gun. They were basically copying recipes without understanding that often the loading technique rather than the recipe was the important part.

- Ivan.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 9, 2018)

Coaching can be all over the place. 
I am not claiming to be of national standard but 20 or so years ago in several gun clubs I belonged to members would have me coach their girlfriends or family members even if they were pretty good shots themselves. That commercial range I worked for had a large junior program (120-170 kids most years) and had several good coaches. One had coached an NCAA national record setter (back in the early 60s) and he was actually one of the least dogmatic coaches I have seen.
If a kid was missing a lot (and horribly) in standing he would actually stand behind the shooter and instruct them to fire when he said "fire". He would then watch the shooter raise the rifle and start to aim, He would then look at his watch (not the shooter) and when 7 seconds had passed he would say "fire". The shooter wouldn't get a hit every time but they either hit black or got close enough to give them enough confidence to do better. Most people (and I am guilty myself) hold too long when shooting standing. 
I never had the guts to try coaching using that trick myself  
That coach was also a great believer in doing whatever it took for the individual shooter. We all have different length arms and legs, different length necks and different shaped faces. There is no one correct "position" that suits everybody. I learned a lot from him. You do learn a lot coaching 2-3 hours a day 3-4 days a week for a number of years. ( I had a real job on the Fire Dept and was not there full time). 
I happen to believe that target shooting is great sport for lazy people. The goal in any position (prone, sitting, kneeling or standing) is to use the fewest number of muscles possible. You hold the gun up with your bones and the sling except for offhand.

This is for target shooting and hunting and military (combat) shooting is different.


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## Bucksnort101 (Oct 11, 2018)

OK, want some info from people that may know. I'm looking to replace my current Deer Rifle (.30-06) with something that has much lighter recoil as my shoulder can't take shooting the ought six as much as it used to. I've narrowed my choices down to .25-06, 6.5 Creedmore or Swede, and 7mm-08.
Not sure I really buy into all the hype on the 6.5 Creedmore, and I really like the little I've read on the 7mm-08. Anyone shoot a 7mm-08 and can comment on how much less recoil you see compared to a .30-06 (I'm shooting about an 8lbs rifle with 180 gr. bullets).
I either need to go with a lighter recoiling rifle or switch to shooting my current rifle right handed and I really don't want to do that.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 11, 2018)

I can tell you that recoil is going to be pretty proportional to bullet weight if the velocity is close. Maybe the 7mm will give you what you want?

Thr 6.5mm gives a bigger reduction. 

A 180 grain .308 bullet has a sectional density of .271
a 150 grain .284 bullet has a sectional density of .266
a 130 grain .264 bullet has a sectional density of .266

What each company or bullet does with bullet weight as a far as shape goes for ballistic coefficient can certainly vary but the sectional density (weight per unit of frontal area) should give you a starting point for possibilities. 
If a 120 grain 6.5/.264 bullet will do what you want on game ( bullet expansion/penetration) you may be able to get a recoil of about 2/3rds that of the 30/06 vs 5/6s or bet better by going to the 7mm-08, depends a bit on exact bullet weight. 
I don't know about the hype on the 6.5 Creedmoor and I haven't hunted in 40 years but I did shoot out a barrel (about 5000 rounds) in 6.5 x 308 (.260 Remington) and beat the heck out of a lot of people using .308s. I don't think it really matters about a few degrees of shoulder angle or a few grains of powder capacity.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 11, 2018)

Bucksnort101 said:


> OK, want some info from people that may know. I'm looking to replace my current Deer Rifle (.30-06) with something that has much lighter recoil as my shoulder can't take shooting the ought six as much as it used to. I've narrowed my choices down to .25-06, 6.5 Creedmore or Swede, and 7mm-08.
> Not sure I really buy into all the hype on the 6.5 Creedmore, and I really like the little I've read on the 7mm-08. Anyone shoot a 7mm-08 and can comment on how much less recoil you see compared to a .30-06 (I'm shooting about an 8lbs rifle with 180 gr. bullets).
> I either need to go with a lighter recoiling rifle or switch to shooting my current rifle right handed and I really don't want to do that.



Hello Bucksnort101,
First I will qualify my advice by stating up front that I am not a hunter and never have been.
I HAVE hung around with hunters for decades though and have done just about everything up to pulling the trigger on a live animal.
If you are hunting Deer, I presume they are the typical Whitetail that are all over the place around here.
They are pretty common even in my residential neighbourhood and I often come across them when walking.
Whitetail are pretty small and a .30-06 180 grain bullet seems like quite a bit of overkill.
If recoil is what bothers you, perhaps going down to a 150 grain might be enough to make things less painful?
If the shooting distances are short as they tend to be around here, you might even be able to go lighter than that and still keep your .30-06.
You will certainly be giving up bullet weight with a lighter caliber anyway.

I presume you do not reload your own ammunition.
If you did, I would suggest loading a 150 grain premium hunting bullet down to around 2600-2650 fps or pretty close to what a .300 Savage would do. This is a duplication of the ballistics of the military ball ammunition from the mid 1960's that was issued during the Vietnam era and seems to be accurate in every .30-06 I have ever tried it in (as long as the bullet is a decent quality).

Hello Shortround6,
Regarding coaching as with most other things, I see a dogmatic approach as an indication of a closed mind and lack of actual thinking and adaptation to the circumstances. People like that tend to bother me.

- Ivan.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 11, 2018)

Bucksnort101 said:


> OK, want some info from people that may know. I'm looking to replace my current Deer Rifle (.30-06) with something that has much lighter recoil as my shoulder can't take shooting the ought six as much as it used to. I've narrowed my choices down to .25-06, 6.5 Creedmore or Swede, and 7mm-08.
> Not sure I really buy into all the hype on the 6.5 Creedmore, and I really like the little I've read on the 7mm-08. Anyone shoot a 7mm-08 and can comment on how much less recoil you see compared to a .30-06 (I'm shooting about an 8lbs rifle with 180 gr. bullets).
> I either need to go with a lighter recoiling rifle or switch to shooting my current rifle right handed and I really don't want to do that.


Resp:
I understand the need to change. I have two friends who had to go to the 25-06 due to neck issues (not related to firearm usage). I have rifles in both 25-06 and 7mm08. Either will work. Keep in mind that stock fit and weight play a big part in how much a rifle moves (kicks). My 7mm08 in on a Rem 700 action, with factory composite stock and a 24 inch bbl. with a 139 gr handload (heavy) it is pleasant to shoot.


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## Bucksnort101 (Oct 11, 2018)

Yes, a 180 Gr. .30-06 bullet is a bit overkill on a Whitetail sized animal, but it sure dispatches them quickly if I do my part. Too late to switch to a 150 Gr. this year, but will try it after this season. 
Reason for asking is I have a buddy that is going to start building rifles and I may have him build one for me. I want something I can used for Whitetails, but also spend a day at the range shooting and not get beaten up so much (I've busted up both shoulders in accidents, my shoulder the stock rest in twice).
He will be building on a Rem 700 action as well, so I was thinking of having him build a rifle with a heavier barrel, not that concerned about weight as I don't spend a lot of time hiking in the woods anymore. Thinking a tapered varmint style barrel, and them mate it to a fitted stock.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 11, 2018)

Bucksnort101 said:


> Yes, a 180 Gr. .30-06 bullet is a bit overkill on a Whitetail sized animal, but it sure dispatches them quickly if I do my part. Too late to switch to a 150 Gr. this year, but will try it after this season.
> Reason for asking is I have a buddy that is going to start building rifles and I may have him build one for me. I want something I can used for Whitetails, but also spend a day at the range shooting and not get beaten up so much (I've busted up both shoulders in accidents, my shoulder the stock rest in twice).
> He will be building on a Rem 700 action as well, so I was thinking of having him build a rifle with a heavier barrel, not that concerned about weight as I don't spend a lot of time hiking in the woods anymore. Thinking a tapered varmint style barrel, and them mate it to a fitted stock.


Resp:
I recommend you go to a gunshop and handle various Rem 700 (since that is the action you plan to use). Take note of the barrel diameter. A 25-06 will have a heavier barrel than a 7mm, and a 7mm over the 30-06. Most likely they will have various 308s since it has become the 'go to' for tactical applications. You will get a good idea of what you want as to weight and bbl length. I also use steel scope mounts when I want to add a little more weight over aluminum. Good luck.
PS. I only have one truly custom rifle; a 358 Norma Mag w 23" number 5 profile.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 11, 2018)

Recoil is proportional to momentum mass (weight X velocity) and not muzzle energy (mass x velocity x velocity) so just cutting velocity, while it helps, is not a major change.

The difference in metal between a .264 bore and a .308 bore in a barrel with the same external dimension is not that great. You are talking about a 1/2 a cubic in of metal. 

a 24 in barrel vs a 22 might add a few ounces, and some of these small bores might be a bit more sensitive to barrel length and velocity. 
For the .264 one turn in 9 in for twist seems to work very well, at least for all but the very longest bullets and for hunting you probably aren't using match VLD (very low drag) bullets anyway. One in ten might not be quick enough depending on bullets (my one in ten barrel did great with 120 grain Sierra match but 140s were a disaster) The one in nine barrel (.260Rem) shot both just fine at a variety of velocities.


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## michael rauls (Oct 11, 2018)

Bucksnort101 said:


> Yes, a 180 Gr. .30-06 bullet is a bit overkill on a Whitetail sized animal, but it sure dispatches them quickly if I do my part. Too late to switch to a 150 Gr. this year, but will try it after this season.
> Reason for asking is I have a buddy that is going to start building rifles and I may have him build one for me. I want something I can used for Whitetails, but also spend a day at the range shooting and not get beaten up so much (I've busted up both shoulders in accidents, my shoulder the stock rest in twice).
> He will be building on a Rem 700 action as well, so I was thinking of having him build a rifle with a heavier barrel, not that concerned about weight as I don't spend a lot of time hiking in the woods anymore. Thinking a tapered varmint style barrel, and them mate it to a fitted stock.


A couple of suggestions that I hope are helpful. One is the weight of the rifle. All other things being equal it's amazing how a couple of extra pounds of rifle will tame recoil. This of course has the downside of lugging around a heavier rifle. This doesn't bother me but I know some people hate it.
Another one is a recoil tube. It's a tube, partially filled usually with mercury that you have custom fitted into the stock that spreads the recoil out over more time. When the rifle starts to move back the mercury moves to the front of the tube( actually it stays stationary while the rifle moves back) storing energy in the proces. Then as the rifle starts to move forward again the the mercury now moves back( in relationship to the rifle) and distribues the stored energy. The result is the same number of foot pounds of energy to the shoulder but distributed over about twice the amount of time thereby cutting felt recoil about in half.
I have never had a rifle with one of these but a friend did, a 30-06, and it felt like nothing to shoot.
The other obvious solution would be an autoloader. They tend to have considerably less recoil. A combination of two or three of these solutions should really nix the felt recoil.
Hope this helps.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 12, 2018)

Shortround6 said:


> Recoil is proportional to momentum mass (weight X velocity) and not muzzle energy (mass x velocity x velocity) so just cutting velocity, while it helps, is not a major change.
> 
> The difference in metal between a .264 bore and a .308 bore in a barrel with the same external dimension is not that great. You are talking about a 1/2 a cubic in of metal.
> 
> ...


Resp:
True inre to on the differences of bore diameter/weight. However, combine that with a smaller/lesser recoiling ctg, one often gets the desired results. My 25-06 is significantly heavier than my 30-06. I just see many new shooters thinking weight is the 'main' issue with any gun. If one wants to keep the weight of a standard rifle, but wants it more 'handy', as in a shorter overall length, then getting a larger diameter/heavier bbl is one way to do it.
I shoot 120 gr Sierras in a 20'' Browning 260. Buck dropped at the shot; no hesitation.
PS. Many commercial hunting game ranches prohibit the use of smaller ctgs, such as 243, 25-06, 260, etc. I suspect the Creedmoor would be prohibited as well. I do not know of any that prohibit the 7mm08. 30-06s are welcome. The folks I've talked to are amazed of how poor the marksmanship of those who have been showing up to hunt these last 5 yrs or so. Technology does not take the place to marksmanship skills (and field craft)!!


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## Tieleader (Oct 12, 2018)

We have a winner in the most guns own category!

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3DLT3dC_mw_

Oh, to be rich....


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## mikewint (Oct 15, 2018)

The 30-06 is a fantastic cartridge for any N. American big game and I do like it for deer. Recently I purchased a Weatherby Vanguard "24 chambered in the .25-06 cartridge and it is a very very nice round and does a heck of a one shot job on any of the White-tails here in Ark.
The Savage 11/111 Trophy Hunter XP Bolt in .223 also works well but is a bit light and requires good shot placement for a one-shot kill.
If I go out into the woods there is nothing like my good old Winchester 94 in 30-30. 50 yards is a L O N G shot around here in most cases.

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## Navalwarrior (Oct 17, 2018)

mikewint said:


> The 30-06 is a fantastic cartridge for any N. American big game and I do like it for deer. Recently I purchased a Weatherby Vanguard "24 chambered in the .25-06 cartridge and it is a very very nice round and does a heck of a one shot job on any of the White-tails here in Ark.
> The Savage 11/111 Trophy Hunter XP Bolt in .223 also works well but is a bit light and requires good shot placement for a one-shot kill.
> If I go out into the woods there is nothing like my good old Winchester 94 in 30-30. 50 yards is a L O N G shot around here in most cases.


Resp:
I believe that anyone who does any serious hunting should own at least one 30-06. I have a half a dozen. However, I use several other chamberings as well. I just acquired (actually 3 yrs ago but just put a scope on it) a grey stainless 25-06, and fired it at 50 yds after bore sighting it. Will re-zero at 100, then again at 200.


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## mikewint (Oct 17, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> own at least one 30-06.


While I do like the 30-06 I've always felt it was a bit over rated for "big" game. It is IMHO over kill for White-tail (at least here in Ark). Now we do have Elk here but hunting is VERY restricted and done on a lottery system so your chances are very slim. In a by-gone-era I used to go out to Montana and my Uncle and I did take two Grizzly bears and Unk used a 30-06. 
IMHO when you start looking at that kind of game the 30-06 is barely sufficient. At 100yds a 180grain is 2504fps - 2506f-lbs. At 200yds 2314fps - 2139f-lbs with a 4inch drop. At 300yds 2131fps and only 1815f-lbs with a 14.6 inch drop. At 400yds 1957fps 1531f-lbs with a 32.9 inch drop
By passing the "elephant" calibers I personally prefer the 300 magnum. Much flatter trajectory and much more power with the same 180 grain.
100yds - 2943fps - 3462f-lbs 200yds - 2697fps - 2907f-lbs with a 2.5 inch drop 300yds - 2464fps - 2426f-lbs and a 9.8 inch drop 400yds - 2242fps - 2009 f-lbs and only 22.9 inch drop.
Since I no longer shoot at anything bigger than a White-tail I traded my Weatherby 300 mag for the 25-06. On the opening day of deer season I simply get a cup of coffee and sit on the deck at sunrise and wait for a nice fat young doe to stroll by. My cousin in Missouri likes to tromp through the woods so If we go together I'll use the 30-30 in the brush


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## michael rauls (Oct 17, 2018)

mikewint said:


> While I do like the 30-06 I've always felt it was a bit over rated for "big" game. It is IMHO over kill for White-tail (at least here in Ark). Now we do have Elk here but hunting is VERY restricted and done on a lottery system so your chances are very slim. In a by-gone-era I used to go out to Montana and my Uncle and I did take two Grizzly bears and Unk used a 30-06.
> IMHO when you start looking at that kind of game the 30-06 is barely sufficient. At 100yds a 180grain is 2504fps - 2506f-lbs. At 200yds 2314fps - 2139f-lbs with a 4inch drop. At 300yds 2131fps and only 1815f-lbs with a 14.6 inch drop. At 400yds 1957fps 1531f-lbs with a 32.9 inch drop
> By passing the "elephant" calibers I personally prefer the 300 magnum. Much flatter trajectory and much more power with the same 180 grain.
> 100yds - 2943fps - 3462f-lbs 200yds - 2697fps - 2907f-lbs with a 2.5 inch drop 300yds - 2464fps - 2426f-lbs and a 9.8 inch drop 400yds - 2242fps - 2009 f-lbs and only 22.9 inch drop.
> ...


Assuming those pictures are from the deck of which you speek I envy you living in a place like that. When I retire im outa here( so cal). Headed for Bishop Ca. Different from where you live bit equaly as beautiful.


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## mikewint (Oct 17, 2018)

Yup, the herd is in the front yard and the others are in the back. If you look close at the two does they are at my salt-lick on the stump and the white dots are my rifle target. Life-time fishing and hunting licence here for vets is $35 one time fee


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## GrauGeist (Oct 17, 2018)

Mike's yard looks similar to my Mom's yard over in Trinity County, except the deer there are voracious pests and constantly destroy her garden.

Also, here in Califirnia, you can only take bucks, forked or larger. Our Elk are also on a lottery, the tags available are, I believe 2,000 or less.

When I used to deer hunt, I used the family's old hand-me-down 7x57 Mauser, all original including iron sights and dead-on accuracy.

For bigger game, I'd use my .300 Savage - plenty of knock-down power, excellent penetration and has quite a reach on it.


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## mikewint (Oct 17, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> deer there are voracious pests and constantly destroy her garden.


The same here Dave. Anyone who likes the nasty critters has not had to live with them. The two that I photographed through the deck railing were in the process of raiding my bird-feeder of sunflower seeds. Our first year here we planted all types of decorative flowers and shrubs. Little did we know that they were all deer-treats. If you look at that pic through the railing you can see the corrugated pipe I had to put around the maple tree to keep the deer from stripping and eating all the bark. The only way to have any kind or type of garden is to put a cyclone fence around it topped with razor-wire.
Add to that trying to drive along almost any road without having one or more of the silly creatures run in front of you. A few years back one particularly stupid one was standing on the right-hand side of the road. I slowed down and he crossed in front of me. With the deer safely on the left-hand side I sped up to pass him. Yup the DA made a 180 and ran full force into the side of my car.
The DA neighbor is from the city and "just loves and feeds" the nasty critters bags of "deer corn" so they are particularly populous around the house.


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## mikewint (Oct 17, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> For bigger game, I'd use my .300 Savage - plenty of knock-down power, excellent penetration and has quite a reach on it.


You bet, I loved that .300 Weatherby but there is nothing here that requires that kind of knock-down or range. I hated to part with it but the 25-06 and 30-30 are perfect for around here. I'm a meat hunter and could care less about racks.
Now Missouri has a feral hog problem and some of those tuskers are in the +600lb range. A few are drifting this way. I suspect that if the opportunity presents itself my PTR 91 .308 should do very nicely.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 17, 2018)

mikewint said:


> While I do like the 30-06 I've always felt it was a bit over rated for "big" game. It is IMHO over kill for White-tail (at least here in Ark). Now we do have Elk here but hunting is VERY restricted and done on a lottery system so your chances are very slim. In a by-gone-era I used to go out to Montana and my Uncle and I did take two Grizzly bears and Unk used a 30-06.
> IMHO when you start looking at that kind of game the 30-06 is barely sufficient. At 100yds a 180grain is 2504fps - 2506f-lbs. At 200yds 2314fps - 2139f-lbs with a 4inch drop. At 300yds 2131fps and only 1815f-lbs with a 14.6 inch drop. At 400yds 1957fps 1531f-lbs with a 32.9 inch drop
> By passing the "elephant" calibers I personally prefer the 300 magnum. Much flatter trajectory and much more power with the same 180 grain.
> 100yds - 2943fps - 3462f-lbs 200yds - 2697fps - 2907f-lbs with a 2.5 inch drop 300yds - 2464fps - 2426f-lbs and a 9.8 inch drop 400yds - 2242fps - 2009 f-lbs and only 22.9 inch drop.
> ...


Resp:
I never argue with success. I gave up 'persuasion' many yrs ago as it is a waste of time. Jack O'Connor liked to keep his shots under 300 yards, and took most of his 'big game' with either the 270 or 3006. He did this w a 4X scope. 
A year or so ago, a well known guide in Alaska ventured out with a 3006 early one Spring, not expecting to see bears. The iron sighted '06 was loaded with Nosler 220 grain Partitions. Since the magazine held 5 ctgs, it was either a Mauser or Win Mod 70 (wasn't a Springfield '03 as I collect them so would have remembered). I believe it was a Mauser, as most of his dangerous game rifles use this action. To the story; when he knelt down to inspect his traps, a Brown bear suddenly appeared out of the brush 20 yards away. As the bear rose up on his hind legs, the guide put a 220 grainier in the center of his chest. The bear immediately fell back on his butt. The bear again rose up on his hind legs. Again, he received a 220 grainier to the chest, knocking him on his butt. Five shots later, the Brown bear was dead.
Now, most of those reading this . . . would assume that 'well, it took 5 shots so it must be a weak cartridge!' No, it is a Brown bear. Guides always recommend at least two shots on big bears, even if you are using a 416 Rigby. The guide said he gained a healthy respect for the '06. I always take two rifles when traveling any distance to hunt. The 3006 is always one of the two rifles, even when I take a 300 WM.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 17, 2018)

An advantage the 6.5mm has over the .25 (.257) caliber guns is that due to common rifling twists 120 grains is about as heavy as .25 caliber bullets go while 6.5mm (.264 ) will usually use 140 grain bullets (or a bit heavier, there are 160-162 grain round nose available). Perhaps a premium 120 grain .257 will do the job. I don't know, but if heavier bullets are needed the 6.5 is the way to go. I don't believe the difference in diameter amounts to much. The difference in like wrapping one layer of good copy paper around the .257 bullet with no over lap.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 17, 2018)

Shortround6 said:


> An advantage the 6.5mm has over the .25 (.257) caliber guns is that due to common rifling twists 120 grains is about as heavy as .25 caliber bullets go while 6.5mm (.264 ) will usually use 140 grain bullets (or a bit heavier, there are 160-162 grain round nose available). Perhaps a premium 120 grain .257 will do the job. I don't know, but if heavier bullets are needed the 6.5 is the way to go. I don't believe the difference in diameter amounts to much. The difference in like wrapping one layer of good copy paper around the .257 bullet with no over lap.


Resp:
True. I own several 2506s. Can they handle most of the hunting I do? Yes. But if you are in areas where wind is constantly in motion, then calibers of .264, .277 and .284 are better choices as their ability to handle 140-150 grain bullets with high BC drift less on windy days. We argue over speeds and bullet drop, but out to 300 yards or a little more, the 2506, 270 Win, 308 and 3006, the difference in bullet drop is within 2.0 inches or less with these ctg. For some reason the current population of would-be hunters/shooter believes a ctg that doesn't throw a bullet at 'at least' 3000 fps, are ineffective. The last deer I killed (2016) was with a 7mm08, moving a 139 grain Spire pt at 2885 fps from a 24 inch bbl. He dropped at the shot! I will never sell it (it @ matches the old 7X57 Mauser). Go figure.


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## mikewint (Oct 18, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Five shots later, the Brown bear was dead.


I had mentioned in my post that Unk and I (I was 11YO at the time. I mostly held the horses & pack mule) took 2 Grizzly bears. Unk was using his Winchester 70 in 30-06 while I had my trusty Marlin .22 LR lever. We had been riding for two days and had seen nothing. Just before sunset on the second day with the light fading we spotted a bear on a hill possibly 300yds?? distant (I was 11) and the bear spotted us. He (bear) started to shamble away. Unk took the shot (he said later that in the fading light he could not see the cross-hairs against the dark bear), the bear went down for a second then turned and charged down the hill towards us. Unk fired again and the bear did a somersault and kept coming. Unk fired two more times and the bear fell each time but got back up and kept coming. His last shot was at about 20 feet or so. The bear went down and this time stayed down though still alive. We eventually found that Unk had hit him with all five shots with the last shattering his spine. There was very little left of the carcass or hide. The bullets had really chewed him up but until that last shot he had plenty of life left.



Shortround6 said:


> but if heavier bullets are needed


The Kinetic Energy of anything is KE = 0.5 x Mass x Velocity^2. Thus you can certainly increase KE with more mass (heavier bullet) BUT increasing velocity is much more effective. Doubling mass doubles KE but doubling velocity quadruples the KE. 
The old Sharps .50 - .52 caliber rifles shot 700 grain bullets at under 1500 fps. Billy Dixon's famous 1538 yard shot was made with a .50-90 Sharps. (90 grains of black powder though Sharps factory loads were 100 or 110 grains.


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## michael rauls (Oct 18, 2018)

mikewint said:


> I had mentioned in my post that Unk and I (I was 11YO at the time. I mostly held the horses & pack mule) took 2 Grizzly bears. Unk was using his Winchester 70 in 30-06 while I had my trusty Marlin .22 LR lever. We had been riding for two days and had seen nothing. Just before sunset on the second day with the light fading we spotted a bear on a hill possibly 300yds?? distant (I was 11) and the bear spotted us. He (bear) started to shamble away. Unk took the shot (he said later that in the fading light he could not see the cross-hairs against the dark bear), the bear went down for a second then turned and charged down the hill towards us. Unk fired again and the bear did a somersault and kept coming. Unk fired two more times and the bear fell each time but got back up and kept coming. His last shot was at about 20 feet or so. The bear went down and this time stayed down though still alive. We eventually found that Unk had hit him with all five shots with the last shattering his spine. There was very little left of the carcass or hide. The bullets had really chewed him up but until that last shot he had plenty of life left.
> 
> 
> The Kinetic Energy of anything is KE = 0.5 x Mass x Velocity^2. Thus you can certainly increase KE with more mass (heavier bullet) BUT increasing velocity is much more effective. Doubling mass doubles KE but doubling velocity quadruples the KE.
> The old Sharps .50 - .52 caliber rifles shot 700 grain bullets at under 1500 fps. Billy Dixon's famous 1538 yard shot was made with a .50-90 Sharps. (90 grains of black powder though Sharps factory loads were 100 or 110 grains.


That must have been a bit un-nerving to at that age to see a Grizzly bear just keep coming dispite being hit repeatedly. Heck, even at my age I'm pretty sure I might find that situation just a bit stressful.
Have never hunted brown bears but from what ive heard/ read they are really tuff customers.


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## javlin (Oct 18, 2018)

My latest acquisition due to arrive Saturday/Monday won at auction about 2wks ago look hardly used Venezuelan FN49 7 X 57mm to go along with my FN Mauser from the 30's never fired 7 X 57mm.I am thinking the Gustav 1920 Mauser comes out of the cabinet to make room for this one......

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## Shortround6 (Oct 18, 2018)

mikewint said:


> The Kinetic Energy of anything is KE = 0.5 x Mass x Velocity^2. Thus you can certainly increase KE with more mass (heavier bullet) BUT increasing velocity is much more effective. Doubling mass doubles KE but doubling velocity quadruples the KE.
> .



Quite true but adding velocity isn't all that easy. As a general rule of thumb you need a 20% increase in propellent to get a 10% increase in velocity. .22 Hornet needed 13-14 grains of powder to move a 45 grain bullet at around 2600-2700fps and a .220 swift needs over 40 grains of powder to move a 48 grain bullet at around 4100-4200fps (and a longer barrel) 

I admit I am partial to the 6.5 (more than partial) but for someone who is sensitive to recoil it will use 100 grain (or lighter?) bullets for fun shooting, 120 grain bullets for most things and if needed the 140 grain bullets and heavier for special needs. Most 25 caliber rifles will use bullets from 60 -120 grains but bullets lighter than 87 grains can get a bit weird ( My father and Grandfather had .25 Niedner Krags {necked down 30-40 Krags) and at the time used 60 grain hollow points from 25-20 HV loadings. Bullets sometimes didn't make it to the target or 'blew up" on target paper.) My Grandfathers 25 Krag used a 1 in 12 twist ans would not handle bullets over 100 grains very well.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 18, 2018)

Shortround6 said:


> Quite true but adding velocity isn't all that easy. As a general rule of thumb you need a 20% increase in propellent to get a 10% increase in velocity. .22 Hornet needed 13-14 grains of powder to move a 45 grain bullet at around 2600-2700fps and a .220 swift needs over 40 grains of powder to move a 48 grain bullet at around 4100-4200fps (and a longer barrel)
> 
> I admit I am partial to the 6.5 (more than partial) but for someone who is sensitive to recoil it will use 100 grain (or lighter?) bullets for fun shooting, 120 grain bullets for most things and if needed the 140 grain bullets and heavier for special needs. Most 25 caliber rifles will use bullets from 60 -120 grains but bullets lighter than 87 grains can get a bit weird ( My father and Grandfather had .25 Niedner Krags {necked down 30-40 Krags) and at the time used 60 grain hollow points from 25-20 HV loadings. Bullets sometimes didn't make it to the target or 'blew up" on target paper.) My Grandfathers 25 Krag used a 1 in 12 twist ans would not handle bullets over 100 grains very well.


Resp:
What brand/model rifle and loads for what game. Thanks.


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## Shortround6 (Oct 18, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Resp:
> What brand/model rifle and loads for what game. Thanks.



My 6.5s are custom built, the 6.5-08 is a Winchester 70 short action and the 6.5 Rem BR is on a Remington 700 action. I have a 6.5 Rem Magnum on a single shot Rem 4 action but no real experience with it. They are all target rifles with long heavy barrels. 
I don't hunt so I am not going to give advice about bullets (what weight or brand for different types of game) that you couldn't get out of a manufacturer's catalog.

I don't think there would be any difference between a 25 caliber rifle using a 117-120 grain bullet and a 6.5 using a 120-123 grain bullet if they were at the same velocity and of the same construction/type. For target use there are a lot more 6.5 target bullets available than 25 caliber target bullets. For varmint hunting there seem to be more 25 caliber bullets available, for big game (or larger than deer?) there are more 6.5 bullets available. 

I had, for while, a Winchester 70 in .257 Roberts (made in the late 80s early 90s?) which I never got to shoot well. It would string vertically with the 3rd shot often 4-5 inches above the first and if I set the rifle the aside and shot something else for a while I could go back to it and get another vertical string. Glass bedding and recrowning helped but did not cure. But 1 rifle doesn't prove anything one way or another.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 18, 2018)

Shortround6 said:


> My 6.5s are custom built, the 6.5-08 is a Winchester 70 short action and the 6.5 Rem BR is on a Remington 700 action. I have a 6.5 Rem Magnum on a single shot Rem 4 action but no real experience with it. They are all target rifles with long heavy barrels.
> I don't hunt so I am not going to give advice about bullets (what weight or brand for different types of game) that you couldn't get out of a manufacturer's catalog.
> 
> I don't think there would be any difference between a 25 caliber rifle using a 117-120 grain bullet and a 6.5 using a 120-123 grain bullet if they were at the same velocity and of the same construction/type. For target use there are a lot more 6.5 target bullets available than 25 caliber target bullets. For varmint hunting there seem to be more 25 caliber bullets available, for big game (or larger than deer?) there are more 6.5 bullets available.
> ...


Resp:
A gunsmith friend found that the 6.5 RM opened up to 'improved' gets outstanding velocity. He does this by opening up the rear of a short action Rem (not sure if he used a 700 or a Mod 7) receiver. He builds his own magazine box. This procedure allows bullets to be seated out (am unsure how far) where he can get well over the velocity expected. 
The only .264 that I have is a 260 Rem on a Browning A Bolt. Killed a nice 8 pt WT in 2016 with it. The load was a Sierra 120 gr flat base Spitzer at 2925 FPS. I cannot tell the difference in bullet effect between it and my 7mm08 on deer.


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## wlewisiii (Oct 18, 2018)

Added a Taurus PT92 last weekend and am thinking evil thoughts about a Remington 770 (I think it was, synthetic stock, cheap scope, no real sights) in .243 for cheap at the pawn shop.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 18, 2018)

wlewisiii said:


> Added a Taurus PT92 last weekend and am thinking evil thoughts about a Remington 770 (I think it was, synthetic stock, cheap scope, no real sights) in .243 for cheap at the pawn shop.


Resp:
Save your money and buy a Rem 700. It will last longer.

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## javlin (Oct 18, 2018)

wlewisiii said:


> Added a Taurus PT92 last weekend and am thinking evil thoughts about a Remington 770 (I think it was, synthetic stock, cheap scope, no real sights) in .243 for cheap at the pawn shop.


I check the production date on the Remington I am not big into civilian rifles but Remington had some issues with one of there rifles that partially led to the bankruptcy along with what would be obvious quality control issues.


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## javlin (Oct 18, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Resp:
> Save your money and buy a Rem 700. It will last longer.


I think that's the answer I was looking for!You mean not go Kaboom?


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## wlewisiii (Oct 18, 2018)

I consider all Remington rifles to be, essentially, disposable rifles for the short term. It's a good reminder from you folks of that and even the 700 proper still needs a Timney trigger to be safe unless they finally fixed that in the RemLin era. 

What I really should do is look for another VZ-24 action and build up a nice proper rifle that way in .243 instead. I did that to make my 18" 7x57 carbine. Mauser. There really is no substitute...


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 18, 2018)

wlewisiii said:


> I consider all Remington rifles to be, essentially, disposable rifles for the short term. It's a good reminder from you folks of that and even the 700 proper still needs a Timney trigger to be safe unless they finally fixed that in the RemLin era.
> 
> What I really should do is look for another VZ-24 action and build up a nice proper rifle that way in .243 instead. I did that to make my 18" 7x57 carbine. Mauser. There really is no substitute...


Resp:Rem fixed the trigger. I have Mausers in 270 (2), 7x57, and 3006. The only short ctg that feeds well w/o modification in the Mauser is 308.


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## michael rauls (Oct 19, 2018)

I've read that they did indeed fix the problem with the trigger on the 700 but that conversely the overall quality of the gun isn't what it used to be. I was thinking about getting one in 243 for just plinking / 
target shooting but kept reading people post disparaging comments about the quality of the newer 700s in the comment sections in alot of firearms articles.
Thinking of getting a Ruger gunsite scout in 223 instead. A little pricey but looks like ir would be a perfect plinker/target shooter.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 19, 2018)

michael rauls said:


> I've read that they did indeed fix the problem with the trigger on the 700 but that conversely the overall quality of the gun isn't what it used to be. I was thinking about getting one in 243 for just plinking /
> target shooting but kept reading people post disparaging comments about the quality of the newer 700s in the comment sections in alot of firearms articles.
> Thinking of getting a Ruger gunsite scout in 223 instead. A little pricey but looks like ir would be a perfect plinker/target shooter.


Resp:
I think you should buy what you want. I have rifles on the following actions; Mauser 98, Win Mod 70, 1903 Spr, Rem Mod 30 & 700, Rug 77 (tang safety) & MkII, No 1. All of these actions will still be working when I am dead and gone. Why? Because they are well designed and made of steel. You get what you pay for.
I was never much of a Rem 700 fan, however, aside of speciality actions, the Rem 700 was the 'hands down' choice for building ACCURATE rifles. I have several gunsmith friends; they all build on the 700, usually buy them used.
Good luck. Keep your powder dry!
Con't:
I have always wanted a Ruger Scout, but like you they are pricy. Keep waiting to find a good used one, but people who buy them tend to keep them. LOL!

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## Navalwarrior (Oct 19, 2018)

Shortround6 said:


> My 6.5s are custom built, the 6.5-08 is a Winchester 70 short action and the 6.5 Rem BR is on a Remington 700 action. I have a 6.5 Rem Magnum on a single shot Rem 4 action but no real experience with it. They are all target rifles with long heavy barrels.
> I don't hunt so I am not going to give advice about bullets (what weight or brand for different types of game) that you couldn't get out of a manufacturer's catalog.
> 
> I don't think there would be any difference between a 25 caliber rifle using a 117-120 grain bullet and a 6.5 using a 120-123 grain bullet if they were at the same velocity and of the same construction/type. For target use there are a lot more 6.5 target bullets available than 25 caliber target bullets. For varmint hunting there seem to be more 25 caliber bullets available, for big game (or larger than deer?) there are more 6.5 bullets available.
> ...


Resp:
I realize you no longer have the 257 Roberts, but if you know of someone who is experiencing accuracy problems here is what an old time target shooter told me. Speer makes (or was making) a 100 grain HP flat base bullet that has made finicky Roberts rifles shoot like a match rifle. It has somewhat of a blunt HP, so it looks like old technology . . . but many rifles, particularly Win Mod 70, have a long throats. When testing 2506s after glass bending, it was used as my verification bullet. This guy used it in his heavy bbl Mauser in 257 Rob Imp.


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## javlin (Oct 19, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Resp:
> 
> I have always wanted a Ruger Scout, but like you they are pricey. Keep waiting to find a good used one, but people who buy them tend to keep them. LOL!



I can concur but have only about 20rds through mine just need sit down at a range and dial it in.I shoot a lot at a retired VNam vets house he has to shoot my M1 carbine what he carried in Nam as radio operator so a lot of the shooting is on the move.Now his Son's place next door has a nice table and a berm @168yds by the counter and two miles of woods beyond that the Scout has never been there.


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## mikewint (Oct 19, 2018)

The Scout is a very nice rifle but again personally I've never been a big fan of bolt-action. Though I've never used it for hunting I personally prefer Ruger's Mini-Thirty, 7.62 x 39. The Garand action is as solid as can be and has never jammed (I DON'T use ANY of the Russian crepe rounds). Hunting style 7.62 x 39 rounds are comparable to 30-30 rounds so it should be perfect for White-tails.
I also am a big fan of Hi Points carbines. 9mm rounds are very cheap to shoot and the Hi Point will shoot +P 9mm ammo. I see no reason why this would not work for deer around here though shot placement and distance would be very critical.
[JHP P+ can reach 450-500 ft-lbs at 1600 fps]

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## GrauGeist (Oct 19, 2018)

I have the Ruger Mini-14 Rancher, chambered for .223 and while I've never used it for hunting, a friend of mine used it to take several deer over the years, when we went hunting.


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## michael rauls (Oct 19, 2018)

I like the Garand style rifles as well. Used to own a M1. Kick myself occasionally for letting it go.
One of the reasons I've been thinking about the Scout instead of one of the semi- autos is that I live in Ca and the gun laws here change almost yearly whereby models that were ok last year you are a fellon if you own one this year. Case in point are some of the SKS models that will except 30 round mags regardless if you actually owned any of the mags or not. One year they were fine, next year you were a fellon if you owned one and in this case the old ones werent grandfathered in.


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## javlin (Oct 19, 2018)

Mike: The Scout is a very nice rifle but again personally I've never been a big fan of bolt-action. Though I've never used it for hunting I personally prefer Ruger's Mini-Thirty, 7.62 x 39. The Garand action is as solid as can be and has never jammed (I DON'T use ANY of the Russian crepe rounds). Hunting style 7.62 x 39 rounds are comparable to 30-30 rounds so it should be perfect for White-tails.

I like Ruger but have had two Mini-14's one shot pretty good and the other was so-so I blame the rear sight on the second one(I detest their rear sights it's the adjustment).I shoot open sights not a rifle in the rack except the pellet rifle have a scope. my eyes still work but the ears Huh!I am not so much a bolt guy myself Mike but can fine ways to incorporate them into the collection on the merits craftsmanship if not anything else.The Scout has a mag and ten rounds unlike other bolts and is barely heavier than the M1 carbine that's part of the design.Some pics the guys got her here quick from Cali....

FN 49 clean bolt face appears maybe never issued bayo would of been a nice +







It's older Sister the FN Venezuelan Mauser I suspect 1930's never fired have email out FNHerstal on the actual date have heard they help in the past 





the bolt





The 1920 Gustav comes out to make room for the sisters have to build another box the rack in the shop is full again






The Scout got rid of those funky flash suppressor from Ruger

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## mikewint (Oct 19, 2018)

Since I have an M-16 I've not felt the need for another .223 although that Israeli Tavor has been calling my name. Yours is the first negative I've heard about the Mini-14 most of what I've heard/read rate it better than most M-16 models.


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## javlin (Oct 19, 2018)

mikewint said:


> Since I have an M-16 I've not felt the need for another .223 although that Israeli Tavor has been calling my name. Yours is the first negative I've heard about the Mini-14 most of what I've heard/read rate it better than most M-16 models.


My negative Mike stems from the lack accuracy for a semi-auto in that the barrel to me is not heavy enough after ten rounds in pretty quick succession they really start splay the paper.Were as the M1a I can send five down range @100yds off the bench and 4/5 are 1-1.5 MOA with the flyer @2" never failed.The mechanics of the receiver is top notch on the Mini-14 and there are kits to make them more accurate starting with the barrel and the associated gas port/plate if memory serves me right.The Mini-14 was the first gun I bought back in the day about mid 90's.


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## mikewint (Oct 19, 2018)

In 2005, Ruger retooled the Mini-14 production line and beginning with the 580-prefix series guns shooting 2" groups at 100 yds is almost a given. Yea half MOA rifles are fantastic and impressive but in 90% of real life cases is that level of accuracy required? Also, my experience is that accuracy and reliability in semi-automatic rifle actions is usually inversely proportional. So, anything that the Mini lacks in the way of accuracy is more than made up for in reliability and cleanliness of operation and in lack of ammunition sensitivity.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 19, 2018)

My Mini-14 is a 182 series, putting it around 1981 vintage. It had the wood handguard, but I replaced that with a vented heat-extractor.
The barrel has a 1:10 twist, which Ruger changed to a 1:7 twist I believe in the later 1980's. it changed again in the 90's, don't recall what it ended up being.


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## javlin (Oct 19, 2018)

mikewint said:


> In 2005, Ruger retooled the Mini-14 production line and beginning with the 580-prefix series guns shooting 2" groups at 100 yds is almost a given. Yea half MOA rifles are fantastic and impressive but in 90% of real life cases is that level of accuracy required? Also, my experience is that accuracy and reliability in semi-automatic rifle actions is usually inversely proportional. So, anything that the Mini lacks in the way of accuracy is more than made up for in reliability and cleanliness of operation and in lack of ammunition sensitivity.


Well I am designated paper guy so you see were I come from Mike but I sure luv to plug a few a few hogs with an 8mm Mauser @200g


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## mikewint (Oct 19, 2018)

javlin said:


> plug a few a few hogs


I hear you brother...They are nasty, nasty, dangerous, and destructive animals. Missouri has been at war with them for many years. Ranchers/clubs have gone as far as to import European species for paid hunts. Natch..a few always escape and once in the wild...needless to say.
So far none down this way but I'd love to get a big old porker in the sights of my H&K PTR 91

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## Navalwarrior (Oct 19, 2018)

javlin said:


> I can concur but have only about 20rds through mine just need sit down at a range and dial it in.I shoot a lot at a retired VNam vets house he has to shoot my M1 carbine what he carried in Nam as radio operator so a lot of the shooting is on the move.Now his Son's place next door has a nice table and a berm @168yds by the counter and two miles of woods beyond that the Scout has never been there.


Resp:
I remember a story of a 'lineman' (?) who also carried an M1 Carbine. Part of his job was to string (and repair) phone lines, which required him to climb polls and trees to attach lines. He felt 'naked' going up unarmed, so would sling his carbine before climbing. However, the M1 tended to get in the way. So somewhere he found a Ruger Blackhawk chambered in 30 Carbine. He carried it in a holster in lieu of the M1. The Blackhawk was a single action revolver with a 7.5 inch bbl. The story didn't mention whether he ever fired it in combat. I did meet a Huey pilot that carried a Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 Mag in Vietnam. He had an engine malfunction and had to set the Huey down in the middle of a rice patty. While the crew was clearing the fuel line, VC appeared off in the distance. He killed the lead man w one shot to the chest at @ 100 yds. The others immediately ran for cover.

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## Navalwarrior (Oct 19, 2018)

Resp:
The bolt action remains because it has several basic traits that make it a very reliable and powerful platform: The Mauser brothers get the credit of incorporating all these traits first; the manual bolt creates leverage to remove stuck cartridge cases (rust/mud/sand/excessive pressure, etc) by rotating around the cartridge case head, fixed wide claw extractor, and a manual ejector that allows the operator to gently or quickly eject fired or unified cartridges. This claw extractor controls the cartridge from the magazine the entire distance to being fully chambered. While it requires some physical ability, the bolt torque does most of the work as it is opened. Hence, it is still the preferred action when confronting dangerous game animals. It is extremely reliable. It passed the WWI mud test.
View attachment 513720
View attachment 513721
View attachment 513726
[/QUOTE]


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## michael rauls (Oct 19, 2018)

Another thing that does apeal to me about the bolt action is simplicity and eas of cleaning.


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## mikewint (Oct 21, 2018)

Don't misunderstand me, the bolt-type action and especially the Mauser action are superb actions it is just a personal preference of mine in that I prefer either a lever or semi-auto. I have owned two bolt-actions in my life, my very first rifle was the Marlin .22 LR and that was lever-action. Number two was an Enfield SMLE .303 that I bought for $19 at Klein's in Chicago. I wasn't really into anything historic just looking for a hunting gun so I quickly "sporterized" it by cutting down the military stock, sanding, tapering the forend grip and varnishing plus re-blueing all the metal and new sights.
Klein's had sporterized versions but I didn't have that much money


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## michael rauls (Oct 21, 2018)

mikewint said:


> Don't misunderstand me, the bolt-type action and especially the Mauser action are superb actions it is just a personal preference of mine in that I prefer either a lever or semi-auto. I have owned two bolt-actions in my life, my very first rifle was the Marlin .22 LR and that was lever-action. Number two was an Enfield SMLE .303 that I bought for $19 at Klein's in Chicago. I wasn't really into anything historic just looking for a hunting gun so I quickly "sporterized" it by cutting down the military stock, sanding, tapering the forend grip and varnishing plus re-blueing all the metal and new sights.
> Klein's had sporterized versions but I didn't have that much money
> View attachment 513937


I love the vintage look of that old add( love those vintage prices to)


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 22, 2018)

mikewint said:


> Don't misunderstand me, the bolt-type action and especially the Mauser action are superb actions it is just a personal preference of mine in that I prefer either a lever or semi-auto. I have owned two bolt-actions in my life, my very first rifle was the Marlin .22 LR and that was lever-action. Number two was an Enfield SMLE .303 that I bought for $19 at Klein's in Chicago. I wasn't really into anything historic just looking for a hunting gun so I quickly "sporterized" it by cutting down the military stock, sanding, tapering the forend grip and varnishing plus re-blueing all the metal and new sights.
> Klein's had sporterized versions but I didn't have that much money
> View attachment 513937


Resp:
I didn't take it that way. My point is that one should match the firearm to the chore at hand. Picking an action type and trying to gear it toward an area because one likes a certain mechanism, seems to be the trend lately. While I am not a professional Hunter, I have hunted deer/dove since 1975. As for deer (White Tail/Axis) and Schimitar Orix, I have never needed a second shot. Have I made a bad shot? Yes. But all I did was ruin a hindquarter of meat. I match the caliber to the game and distances I am likely to encounter them. I do scout the area I am hunting beforehand, and often don't take a shot for several days. 
However, while I am not a fan of the ARs, there is a reason why people (honest) want to own them. I understand this. But shooting a WT at 150 yard with a .223 isn't my cup of tea. There is more to hunting than killing. Hogs are a different story. They are encroaching on wildlife habitat destroying nearly everything in their path. One still has to be careful firing multiple rounds, as others In the area can fall victim to rapid fire shooting. 
I have always loved the Garand, but just can't justify buying one. The first time I shot (did practice for three months) an AR-15 in competition, I brought home the 1st place Trophy (lucky). I just don't need 20/30 rds for what I do with a rifle. I do shoot Cowboy Action Shooting, so am pretty good at placing supsequent shoots on multiple targets with a lever action Wincheater.
When I was 17, I got to shoot a Thompson M1A1 on seven different occasions. Was it fun? Yes. I have a lot of respect for it, as we shot lead SWC and round nose bullets out of it and it never jammed. I understand why the British Commandos would not give their Thompsons up when the Sten came out.


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## mikewint (Oct 22, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> I got to shoot a Thompson M1A1


I posted this before but my Thompson story: Back in '59 when I got to buy the Enfield at Kleins they were selling "deactivated" war souvenirs. The deactivation process was to pour lead into the barrel and breech. They were selling some really nice Thompsons for around $50. My buddy Joe and I looked very closely at the Thompsons but neither of us had that much money for a non-gun. The more we thought about it and discussed it we began to realize that "reactivating" the gun would not be all that difficult. Right next to the deactivated Thompsons was a bin of replacement barrels. Problem #1 solved. Now lead is soft and the Thompson breech was hardened steel. Some work with files and picks should be able to remove the soft lead. Each of us put in $25 and next month we had our Thompson. Took another month to get all the lead out of the breech but we had our Thompson hopefully working. Took another month to save up and buy 100 rounds of .45 ammo and we were ready to go. Took the Thompson out in the woods, tied and taped it to a tree, tied a long string to the trigger, got behind another big tree and pulled the string...RAT-TAT-TAT-TAT-TAT. Weuns had us a fully functional Thompson sub-machine gun!!


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 22, 2018)

mikewint said:


> I posted this before but my Thompson story: Back in '59 when I got to buy the Enfield at Kleins they were selling "deactivated" war souvenirs. The deactivation process was to pour lead into the barrel and breech. They were selling some really nice Thompsons for around $50. My buddy Joe and I looked very closely at the Thompsons but neither of us had that much money for a non-gun. The more we thought about it and discussed it we began to realize that "reactivating" the gun would not be all that difficult. Right next to the deactivated Thompsons was a bin of replacement barrels. Problem #1 solved. Now lead is soft and the Thompson breech was hardened steel. Some work with files and picks should be able to remove the soft lead. Each of us put in $25 and next month we had our Thompson. Took another month to get all the lead out of the breech but we had our Thompson hopefully working. Took another month to save up and buy 100 rounds of .45 ammo and we were ready to go. Took the Thompson out in the woods, tied and taped it to a tree, tied a long string to the trigger, got behind another big tree and pulled the string...RAT-TAT-TAT-TAT-TAT. Weuns had us a fully functional Thompson sub-machine gun!!


Resp:
I have shot (for familiarization mostly) H&K MP5, M-14, AK47 and soon (I hope) an UZI. But the Thompson is still my favorite. Yes it is heavy, and it is dated . . .but I understand why it was well thought of by those who carried it into battle. We practiced firing 5 shot bursts . . .at man sized targets. With practice came proficiency. But I think that if I had served in WWII/Korea, I would have carried a Garand M-1. You would be surprised how fast you can load a Garand (practice makes perfect; there is no magazine to remove).
Keep your powder dry!


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## mikewint (Oct 22, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> I have shot (for familiarization mostly) H&K MP5, M-14, AK47 and soon (I hope) an UZI.


I have an MP5 and it is an very sweet gun and very accurate at short distances.
The M14 was standard issue in early Vietnam. I trained with one at Fort Ord but as a Medic the old cannon was heavy so we were not required to carry one, just an old 1911 for "protection"!
AKs were all over Vietnam and I/we shot plenty of them. An excellent weapon, bury it in mud/sand/dirt shake it a bit and it fires every time. Every once in a while soak a rope in old motor oil and run it through the barrel and you're good to go. At times on infil-missions we wore the black "pajamas" and carried AKs (at 6'4" i fooled no one and looked plain silly). The distinctive sound meant that you could not carry one in a group setting.
The 9mm Uzi was my best weapon. Very soon I dropped the 1911 and "bought" an Uzi from an old Sarge going back to the world.
One of our team always wanted a Schmeisser. Somehow our weapons sergeant acquired one. We all got to "play" with it. The same 9mm Parabellum rounds as my Uzi which were easy to obtain


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 22, 2018)

mikewint said:


> I have an MP5 and it is an very sweet gun and very accurate at short distances.
> The M14 was standard issue in early Vietnam. I trained with one at Fort Ord but as a Medic the old cannon was heavy so we were not required to carry one, just an old 1911 for "protection"!
> AKs were all over Vietnam and I/we shot plenty of them. An excellent weapon, bury it in mud/sand/dirt shake it a bit and it fires every time. Every once in a while soak a rope in old motor oil and run it through the barrel and your good to go. At times on infil-missions we wore the black "pajamas" and carried AKs (at 6'4" i fooled no one and looked plain silly). The distinctive sound meant that you could not carry one in a group setting.
> The 9mm Uzi was my best weapon. Very soon I dropped the 1911 and "bought" an Uzi from an old Sarg going back to the world.
> ...


Resp:
A GS employee, who worked with me in the military, was a Warrant Officer in Vietnam who did long range patrols in Laos where he carried a Browning HP and a Swedish sub machine gun. While he liked the 1911, the very nature of their mission kept them in areas that were hard to re-supply, so the BHP was substituted. At times he carried a CAR or an AK. He still has the Browning. Not sure where he got it.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 26, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Resp:
> A GS employee, who worked with me in the military, was a Warrant Officer in Vietnam who did long range patrols in Laos where he carried a Browning HP and a Swedish sub machine gun. While he liked the 1911, the very nature of their mission kept them in areas that were hard to re-supply, so the BHP was substituted. At times he carried a CAR or an AK. He still has the Browning. Not sure where he got it.


Cont:
There is an excellent article in this months Guns & Ammo magazine inre to 9mmX19 barrel twist rates. Hornady began testing new bullets designed to expand/penetrate, etc for Self-Defense situations. When Hornady began testing their FTX bullet a few years back, they noticed that 9mm bullet expansion was greater when fired from pistol barrels with the faster twist rate of 1 in 10 inches. Hornady sent letters to various pistol manufacturers with their test findings, with a recommendation that they adopt the 1 in 10 twist rate for 9mm. Glock was already using the faster rate, but Ruger and S&W were then using slower rates (S&W had the slowest rates). Both Ruger & S&W have switched to the 1 in 10 twist rate. A good point to know in whether to purchase New or Used pistols for serious purposes. The US FBI adopted the Horn 139 FTX load for duty for their Glocks.


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## wlewisiii (Oct 29, 2018)

wlewisiii said:


> I consider all Remington rifles to be, essentially, disposable rifles for the short term. It's a good reminder from you folks of that and even the 700 proper still needs a Timney trigger to be safe unless they finally fixed that in the RemLin era.
> 
> What I really should do is look for another VZ-24 action and build up a nice proper rifle that way in .243 instead. I did that to make my 18" 7x57 carbine. Mauser. There really is no substitute...



Went back to the pawn shop and found a slightly different rifle instead of the Remington - a Weatherby Vanguard in .30-06 with synthetic stock & a Nichols 3 - 9x scope on it for only $349.95. Grabbed and ran. I have to send the bolt in for a safety modification that never got done on this one but that's free and then I'll mount a Weaver K-4 I have on it in place of the current scope. Then, hopefully, by next fall I can get a nice bit of walnut from Boyd's to replace the synthetic stock. Not quite a mauser type but that Howa action is a decent one.


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 29, 2018)

wlewisiii said:


> Went back to the pawn shop and found a slightly different rifle instead of the Remington - a Weatherby Vanguard in .30-06 with synthetic stock & a Nichols 3 - 9x scope on it for only $349.95. Grabbed and ran. I have to send the bolt in for a safety modification that never got done on this one but that's free and then I'll mount a Weaver K-4 I have on it in place of the current scope. Then, hopefully, by next fall I can get a nice bit of walnut from Boyd's to replace the synthetic stock. Not quite a mauser type but that Howa action is a decent one.


Resp:
Good job. Howa's are fairly common and have a reputation for being accurate. A 3006 is never a mistake (I know I will get some arguments) and a 4X will cover many situations. In fact, I cannot remember when I needed more power (often have my 3X9s set at 4 power) when shots were taken at deer, resulting in clean one shot kills. My son was shooting a Mauser sporter with an old Redfield 4X last year and had no trouble keeping one inch groups at 100 yards. He was shooting handloads with 165 grain Nosler Partitions. However, 150 grains are used for deer. Congrats!


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## mikewint (Oct 30, 2018)

wlewisiii said:


> a Weatherby Vanguard


I have and shoot a Vanguard though in .25-06 and it is a better than excellent rifle...sub MOA. IMHO the synthetic stock is not as pretty but if you hunt in all weather conditions it is superior to a wooden stock...PLUS you will have to seat the new stock properly to retain the rifles factory accuracy guarantee


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## Navalwarrior (Oct 30, 2018)

mikewint said:


> I have and shoot a Vanguard though in .25-06 and it is a better than excellent rifle...sub MOA. IMHO the synthetic stock is not as pretty but if you hunt in all weather conditions it is superior to a wooden stock...PLUS you will have to seat the new stock properly to retain the rifles factory accuracy guarantee


Resp:
I have and use both wood and synthetic. I too have a 25-06 with a factory synthetic stock that is stainless. Got it used several yrs ago and just now mounted a new fangled scope. I hope to use it this hunting season. In 2016 I used a synthetic 700 in 7mm08 to take a 9 point. However, nothing feels and handles like a well balanced rifle with a wood stock. Years ago, I acquired a sporter 1903 Springfield that an occupation Officer in Germany had gunsmithed by Joseph Leuthner, Austria between May 1945 - 1947. If you hold the rifle vertical, it feels a little heavy. However, I handed the rifle to a friend shortly after I got in and he said it 'handled like a well fitted shotgun.' It comes to the shoulder, all the while pointing ready to shoot. The muzzle seems to go gently where you think it should. A compromise; use lamented wood stock. It is heavier than wood if the outside stock dimensions are the same, but one can hollow out the barrel channel as well as drill one or two holes behind the butt plate/recoil pad. Glass bedding solves most stock related accuracy issues. My Varmint bbl Ruger No1 in 25-06 shoots great with its two piece wood stock.
Keep your powder dry!


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## Night Fighter Nut (Nov 4, 2018)

Went to the local range on my birthday last month and came across a fellow who had an interesting assortment of guns he was firing... Any of them look familiar?

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## Night Fighter Nut (Nov 4, 2018)

Look familiar now?
Pictures are from the web...


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## rochie (Nov 4, 2018)

Night Fighter Nut said:


> Went to the local range on my birthday last month and came across a fellow who had an interesting assortment of guns he was firing... Any of them look familiar?
> View attachment 515774


recognized the middle and right ones, but would not of guessed the left


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## GrauGeist (Nov 4, 2018)

The Mauser C96 (middle) is known as a "Blastech DL-44" in the Starwars universe. Originally issued to Imperial Officers, Han Solo ended up getting ahold of one. The "sight" on the DL-44 is actually an M19 tank telescope most commonly used on the M4 Sherman.

The Soviet Margolin (right) was know as a "DDC Defender" in the Star Wars universe.


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## vikingBerserker (Nov 5, 2018)

That's awesome!


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## wlewisiii (Nov 5, 2018)

That sherman sighr might be one way to get a c96 to hit the broadside of the barn from the inside... of course mine had a barrel so bad that even after relining it, I could probably hit the roof while aiming at the side. Yeah, it shot a little high  

Glad I bought it, glad I refurbed it, glad I sold it. An interesting experience but I'd rather find a nice WWI era 7.65 luger instead.


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## Night Fighter Nut (Nov 6, 2018)

While at the range, I got a chance to chat with him asking him about the guns. Apparently this guy makes movie props and decided to fire some of them at the range. I was firing my Walther PPQ 5in and my new gun, a Walther CCP. We got to talking and he mentioned that he carried a Walther PPS. I let him fire my PPQ so that he could feel the difference in the triggers between his gun and mine. PPQ's have a fantastic trigger mechanism. After firing it, he agreed. He then returned the favor and let me fire Indiana Jones pistol. The sights were not very good being small and rounded on the edges but it was fun to shoot. Its a double action 1917 Colt military issue. That was a day to remember. .. I got to fire Indiana Jones' gun.


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## Navalwarrior (Nov 8, 2018)

Night Fighter Nut said:


> Went to the local range on my birthday last month and came across a fellow who had an interesting assortment of guns he was firing... Any of them look familiar?
> View attachment 515774





Night Fighter Nut said:


> While at the range, I got a chance to chat with him asking him about the guns. Apparently this guy makes movie props and decided to fire some of them at the range. I was firing my Walther PPQ 5in and my new gun, a Walther CCP. We got to talking and he mentioned that he carried a Walther PPS. I let him fire my PPQ so that he could feel the difference in the triggers between his gun and mine. PPQ's have a fantastic trigger mechanism. After firing it, he agreed. He then returned the favor and let me fire Indiana Jones pistol. The sights were not very good being small and rounded on the edges but it was fun to shoot. Its a double action 1917 Colt military issue. That was a day to remember. .. I got to fire Indiana Jones' gun.


Resp:
L to R: S&W Second Model of 1915, caliber 455, 6.5 inch bbl for British WWI contract, Broomhandle Mauser caliber 30 Mauser, and have no idea of one on R. As I understand it, most of the S&W revolvers went to or through Canada for service. Not sure if they were re-issued during WWII.


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## GrauGeist (Nov 8, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Resp:
> L to R: S&W Second Model of 1915, caliber 455, 6.5 inch bbl for British WWI contract, Broomhandle Mauser caliber 30 Mauser, and have no idea of one on R. As I understand it, most of the S&W revolvers went to or through Canada for service. Not sure if they were re-issued during WWII.


The pistol to the right of the C96 Mauser is a Soviet (Russian) Margolin .22 LR pistol.


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## Navalwarrior (Nov 8, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> The pistol to the right of the C96 Mauser is a Soviet (Russian) Margolin .22 LR pistol.


Thanks. For some reason I thought it might be an air pistol. Everyone needs a 22 or two.

For the last 6 mos or so I have been doing research on early automatic pistols. I was under the assumption that the first 9mm/38 automatic (bullet diameter) came from Europe. However, According to the patent dates, John Browning was the first to build a pistol with this bullet diameter. He submitted a prototype to Colt in July 1895. Keep in mind that the first P08 Lugers were 30 caliber, as were the first successful Broomhandle Mausers. Browning initially used a modified 38 caliber revolver cartridge to function in his prototype pistol.
Initially, I thought this bullet diameter strange, until I realized that the US armed services were at that time issuing a 38 caliber (Long Colt ctg) revolver as their sidearm. Keep in mind that the US Army field tested a large number of 30 cal Lugers, circa 1900-1901, but was rejected mainly due to its small caliber. Browning knew it was only a matter of time before the govt would adopt an automatic, as Europe was advancing along this line.


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## Night Fighter Nut (Nov 8, 2018)

The guy with the gun said it was a Russian target pistol. I wasn't sure of the year on the revolver.


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## tyrodtom (Nov 8, 2018)

In that picture Indiana Jones is holding a Webley, not a Colt, nor a S&W


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## Navalwarrior (Nov 9, 2018)

Just finished watching the History Chanel the Battle of El Alamein in 1942 Africa. The b/w film showed a shot of a British soldier in the prone position firing a P-14 Enfield .303. It was my understanding that these rifles were used in WWI and issued to second line troops in WWII, but it is good to see that they were used in some major battles. Note that the rifle was NOT fitted out with a scope, but retained the issue peep sight.


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## Bucksnort101 (Dec 18, 2018)

Well, I pulled the trigger (not literally) and put a down payment on a new left handed Browning X-Bolt hunter in 7mm-08. Had it narrowed down to this rifle and a Tikka T3x, but opted for the Browning due to it having a metal trigger guard as opposed to the Tikkas plastic one, and just liked the feel of the Browning better.
Will pick the rifle up after Christmas and start saving for the scope, most likely a Leupold VX-3i or VX-R depending on sales and prices.

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## fastmongrel (Dec 18, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Just finished watching the History Chanel the Battle of El Alamein in 1942 Africa. The b/w film showed a shot of a British soldier in the prone position firing a P-14 Enfield .303. It was my understanding that these rifles were used in WWI and issued to second line troops in WWII, but it is good to see that they were used in some major battles. Note that the rifle was NOT fitted out with a scope, but retained the issue peep sight.



The French Army of Africa were issued with P14s and other British equipment when they transferred from Vichy control to Free French control. French units fought at the 2nd battle of El Alamein so its possible its a French soldier you saw.

I see that according to wiki the New Zealand Expeditionary force also had P14s so thats another possibility.


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## Navalwarrior (Dec 18, 2018)

Bucksnort101 said:


> Well, I pulled the trigger (not literally) and put a down payment on a new left handed Browning X-Bolt hunter in 7mm-08. Had it narrowed down to this rifle and a Tikka T3x, but opted for the Browning due to it having a metal trigger guard as opposed to the Tikkas plastic one, and just liked the feel of the Browning better.
> Will pick the rifle up after Christmas and start saving for the scope, most likely a Leupold VX-3i or VX-R depending on sales and prices.


Resp:
My 7mm08 is one of my favorite rifles, based on the chambering as well as the rifle. It is a used stainless 24 inch barrel Rem 700 w Tupperware stock. It carries a Burris Fullfield II 3X9. I had done extensive load data for friends' 7mm08, so was impressed with the cartridge. I think you will like it. What length bbl is on your X-Bolt?


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## Navalwarrior (Dec 18, 2018)

fastmongrel said:


> The French Army of Africa were issued with P14s and other British equipment when they transferred from Vichy control to Free French control. French units fought at the 2nd battle of El Alamein so its possible its a French soldier you saw.
> 
> I see that according to wiki the New Zealand Expeditionary force also had P14s so thats another possibility.


Possible, but he was next to another soldier . . . both wearing the same helmet (tin) and uniform of the British Army.


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## Torch (Dec 18, 2018)

Bucksnort101 said:


> Well, I pulled the trigger (not literally) and put a down payment on a new left handed Browning X-Bolt hunter in 7mm-08. Had it narrowed down to this rifle and a Tikka T3x, but opted for the Browning due to it having a metal trigger guard as opposed to the Tikkas plastic one, and just liked the feel of the Browning better.
> Will pick the rifle up after Christmas and start saving for the scope, most likely a Leupold VX-3i or VX-R depending on sales and prices.


i had a Browning A-bolt stainless stalker in a .300wsm, replaced the trigger spring and the thing was a 1" grouper with hand loads. Regretted selling an A-Bolt Medallion .22lr years ago. Point is Brownings have one of the best out of the box accuarate rifles out there, You would not of been done wrong by the Tikka also. Both wise choices. Congrats.

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## Bucksnort101 (Dec 18, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Resp:
> My 7mm08 is one of my favorite rifles, based on the chambering as well as the rifle. It is a used stainless 24 inch barrel Rem 700 w Tupperware stock. It carries a Burris Fullfield II 3X9. I had done extensive load data for friends' 7mm08, so was impressed with the cartridge. I think you will like it. What length bbl is on your X-Bolt?



22" Barrel on the Hunter model. Would have liked a 24", but from my research 22" should be sufficient to burn all the powder in that case, and the rifle balances pretty well. Rifle is on the light side, 6.6 pounds. Would have liked a little heavier rifle to absorb even more of the recoil, but us lefties are limited.
I'll shoot it with the stock in comes on, but may get a stock from Boyds later on and fully bed it. 
Haven't gotten into reloading yet. I'll see how this shoots with factory ammo and maybe go from there.


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## fastmongrel (Dec 19, 2018)

Navalwarrior said:


> Possible, but he was next to another soldier . . . both wearing the same helmet (tin) and uniform of the British Army.



If they were New Zealand EF they would be wearing the same or virtually indistinguishable uniforms and kit as the British Army. 

Some Free French used their original leather load carrying equipment and Adrian helmets in the desert but most of the photos I have seen they are wearing the MkII tin hat and 37 pattern webbing.


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## Navalwarrior (Jan 9, 2019)

Bucksnort101 said:


> 22" Barrel on the Hunter model. Would have liked a 24", but from my research 22" should be sufficient to burn all the powder in that case, and the rifle balances pretty well. Rifle is on the light side, 6.6 pounds. Would have liked a little heavier rifle to absorb even more of the recoil, but us lefties are limited.
> I'll shoot it with the stock in comes on, but may get a stock from Boyds later on and fully bed it.
> Haven't gotten into reloading yet. I'll see how this shoots with factory ammo and maybe go from there.


Resp:
The 22" bbl will work just fine. One reason I bought the used 7m08 (2008) is that the cartridge works well with most bbl lengths. Years ago, friends asked me to clean their 7m08s. I said I would, but I would like to shoot them also. One of them had an 18.5" bbl, so I did some load development (1990s) and found that I could get 2800+ with some powders and the Hornady 139 flat base Spire Point (lead tip, an older bullet). This bullet had a short baring surface (the part that touched the bbl) so it seemed to create less resistance/drag) and therefore pressure signs were less than with the same weight bullet that had a longer baring surface (like the 140 gr Sierras). Generally, one will not be making 300+yard shots with an 18.5" bbl rifle, so one does not need maximum velocities . . . as it will kill deer size game very well. My 24" bbl rifle shoots this 139 gr Spire Point quite well, so I have been using it above all others. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it!


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## gordonm1 (Jan 15, 2019)

Newb here. I like P40's and collect US military surplus weapons.

I'll try and post a pic of my Red River Army Depot garand. It looks fresh from a depot rebuild. Serial no. circa 1943.

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## Bucksnort101 (Jan 15, 2019)

Nice!!!!


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## Navalwarrior (Jan 21, 2019)

fastmongrel said:


> If they were New Zealand EF they would be wearing the same or virtually indistinguishable uniforms and kit as the British Army.
> 
> Some Free French used their original leather load carrying equipment and Adrian helmets in the desert but most of the photos I have seen they are wearing the MkII tin hat and 37 pattern webbing.


Resp:
You may be right. The b/w film was likely edited at some point, so there is no way of knowing for sure. Past info suggested that the British used them during WWII as 'Home Guard' or sniper mode (fitted with Scope). But photos of Home Guard carrying such rifles may actually be US Model 1917s.


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## special ed (Jan 21, 2019)

Many years ago , I met a WW2 vet who was stateside his entire enlistment. He told me at his last base, He wouldn't say where, he guarded warehouses. One warehouse had cases of rifles. He found a great many of the cases contained Remington made Enfield model 1917 in .30 caliber. It appears these were a third line of defense after Springfield 03. He said these were new never issued or refurbished. After VJ day the guard duties were cut way back as personnel were discharged. He took one of the cases of twelve rifles as much of the supplies were being surplussed and many losses were written off. He never sold any as he was fearful of prosecution even 50 + years later. I got to see one and it was as he said new and not Parkerized. He would not sell one and now has passed on, most likely. I often wonder where they went. I only new his first name and that he had a son who wasn't interested in hunting.

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## fastmongrel (Jan 21, 2019)

Navalwarrior said:


> Resp:
> You may be right. The b/w film was likely edited at some point, so there is no way of knowing for sure. Past info suggested that the British used them during WWII as 'Home Guard' or sniper mode (fitted with Scope). But photos of Home Guard carrying such rifles may actually be US Model 1917s.



The Home Guard were issued .303 P14 rifles and .30 M1917 rifles the only way to tell them apart is the M1917 rifles had a 2 inch wide red band painted on the foreguard. The rifles were kept apart there were .303 Division areas that had P14s or SMLEs and Lewis Guns and .30 Division areas that had 1917s or 1903s and BARs. 

The sniper rifles in the regular army were .303 P14s. The Royal Marines still had a few in use as late as the Korean war.

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## Navalwarrior (Jan 21, 2019)

special ed said:


> Many years ago , I met a WW2 vet who was stateside his entire enlistment. He told me at his last base, He wouldn't say where, he guarded warehouses. One warehouse had cases of rifles. He found a great many of the cases contained Remington made Enfield model 1917 in .30 caliber. It appears these were a third line of defense after Springfield 03. He said these were new never issued or refurbished. After VJ day the guard duties were cut way back as personnel were discharged. He took one of the cases of twelve rifles as much of the supplies were being surplussed and many losses were written off. He never sold any as he was fearful of prosecution even 50 + years later. I got to see one and it was as he said new and not Parkerized. He would not sell one and now has passed on, most likely. I often wonder where they went. I only new his first name and that he had a son who wasn't interested in hunting.


Resp:
An expert on then US made Enfields said refurbIshed 1917s were Parkerized. I recently saw an original brush blue finished Remington 1917 that I assumed was 'taken home' by a soldier after WWI. However, it may have been one of those '3rd Line of Defense 1917s warehoused. I have a Remington that was refitted with (Harrington Richardson?) a 4 groove right hand twist barrel, that was refurbished prior/during WWII.

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## special ed (Jan 21, 2019)

I have thought the rifles may be gone with Hurricane Katrina as were many peoples' collections. I remember seeing a 38 Packard folded in half, a car I often drove by just to look at. My Nambu is still in a can of grease because I'm not ready to look at it.


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## Navalwarrior (Jan 21, 2019)

Navalwarrior said:


> Resp:
> An expert on then US made Enfields said refurbIshed 1917s were Parkerized. I recently saw an original brush blue finished Remington 1917 that I assumed was 'taken home' by a soldier after WWI. However, it may have been one of those '3rd Line of Defense 1917s warehoused. I have a Remington that was refitted with (Harrington Richardson?) a 4 groove right hand twist barrel, that was refurbished prior/during WWII.


CAUTIONARY NOTE:
Eddystone Enfield receivers often crack when the original barrel is removed. It is believed that the original barrels were torqued too tightly during assembly, and that during normal removal (whether by an armorer or civilian gunsmith) the reverse torque caused the receiver to crack.
To CHECK 1917 Enfield Receiver for CRACKS: 1) remove stock from rifle, 2) rub gasoline soaked cloth over receiver ring (where it meets the barrel), 3) watch receiver/barrel junction as gasoline evaporates . . . crack will appear as a dark line. That dark line is a crack in the receiver. THEY ARE UNSAFE TO SHOOT!
Generally, this problem is almost solely an issue with Eddystone made 1917, as Remington or Winchester made receivers rarely crack. I have an Eddystone (given to me) that was rechambered to the wildcat 30-338 Mag . . . which has a 3/4" crack on the Right side, running horizontally from the barrel junction on back. So I am searching for a Remington or Winchester receiver.
I owned an original Eddystone 1917 in stock military configuration for 15 years . . . that had no crack in the receiver, so was safe to shoot. It retained the original factory barrel.
REBARRELING:
This is merely a suggestion; if you own a 1917 that needs a new barrel (and you have a military or commercial replacement that you want fitted), removing metal from the barrel (where it meets the receiver) takes the pressure off, allowing the barrel to unscrew with little torque/stress to the receiver.
I had a sporterized 1917 that had no collector value, that I removed the barrel (almost by hand) after carefully cutting a groove (@ 1/8 away from receiver edge) with a hand held hacksaw. I took several breaks, to keep myself from rushing. The receiver was not damaged. I performed the 'gasoline' test after removing the barrel.
NOT ALL GUNSMTHS KNOW THIS, so be sure to discuss the above procedure with them (they can use a lathe to remove barrel metal/pressure just forward of the receiver) before starting work.


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## Navalwarrior (Jan 21, 2019)

special ed said:


> I have thought the rifles may be gone with Hurricane Katrina as were many peoples' collections. I remember seeing a 38 Packard folded in half, a car I often drove by just to look at. My Nambu is still in a can of grease because I'm not ready to look at it.


Resp:
I spent many years in the N.O. area on business, so saw the damage up close. Sorry to hear about the Nambu, as specimens are hard to come by.


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## Mad Dog (Oct 18, 2020)

Glider said:


> Collecting guns isn't really an option in the UK


My SAKO Triace .22LR target pistol (a gun previously used in the Palace of Westminster Rifle Club's underground shooting range under the UK House of Parliament!) was one of the "weapons" banned by PM Tony "Knee-jerk" Blair. Ironically, gun crime went up after the handgun ban, which just goes to show gun control laws only impact legal gun owners because criminals already don't obey laws. I did have my shotgun certificate but I never enjoyed shotgunning as much as I did target plinking with the pistol.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 18, 2020)

Let's not turn this into a political debate on banning guns or the merits of for or against it.

We have done this before and it always turns ugly. Read the forum rules.

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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 18, 2020)

Many years ago, I felt I needed to have a .22 semi auto pistol for practice.
I have plenty of centerfire handguns but they get a bit expensive to shoot even if you reload.
I picked up a brand new Browning Buckmark for about $200. It was their bottom of the line cheapest pistol.
I had thought about the Rugers, but the Buckmark had controls that were much more similar to those of the centerfire guns and the objective was inexpensive trigger time that would translate into useful practice.

Imagine my surprise when I tested my brand new pistol for accuracy.
With Remington Target (standard velocity) .22, I was able to put 10 shots into a 3/4 inch group at 25 yards.
With the cheaper Remington High Velocity .22, I could only get 1 inch groups for 10 shots which is still pretty good performance.
This gun served for many years as a general practice gun and I was putting about 500 rounds per week through it.
Most of that practice was speed shooting against falling plates at about 25 yards.
After a while, that accuracy started to get worse, so I figured it was about time to get a replacement pistol.
This time it was a higher grade version of the Buckmark.
For some reason, the new gun didn't do any better than what the older worn gun was doing.
I figure that at this point, the original Buckmark has about 15,000 rounds through it. The breech is dented from powder grains. The frame anodizing is now bleached white where my hand has contacted it. And it doesn't work reliably any more. The firing pin is worn out from use.

- Ivan.


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## soulezoo (Oct 19, 2020)

Ivan,
Not many can claim they have actually worn out an entire firearm! Maybe a part here or there and possibly a shot out barrel that can be replaced. But it sounds like you wore out the whole gun. Congrats!


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## at6 (Oct 19, 2020)

That took a lot of effort. I've never known anyone to wear one out.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 19, 2020)

soulezoo said:


> Ivan,
> Not many can claim they have actually worn out an entire firearm! Maybe a part here or there and possibly a shot out barrel that can be replaced. But it sounds like you wore out the whole gun. Congrats!



Hello soulezoo,

I am actually not that happy about it. If I had known that its accuracy was so rare, I might have gotten another gun to shoot for practice.
I don't believe the gun is actually "worn out". The bore actually looks a bit worn, but its accuracy even now when it doesn't misfire is better than many combat handguns and quite sufficient for practice. The firing pin is definitely worn out and I have bought a replacement from Brownells but just haven't taken the time to fit it yet. It is one of those "Round To-It" things I am avoiding because I know it won't be easy.
Replacing a barrel is extremely easy in this gun. It is something I have taken off every couple thousand rounds for cleaning.

- Ivan.

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## Token (Oct 23, 2020)

soulezoo said:


> Ivan,
> Not many can claim they have actually worn out an entire firearm! Maybe a part here or there and possibly a shot out barrel that can be replaced. But it sounds like you wore out the whole gun. Congrats!



In about 1988 my wife bought a Taurus PT99 AF. She selected that pistol the way she quite often selects all guns , "oh look, that one has pretty gold stuff in the wooden handles...". At the time I was not a fan of the 9mm, let alone Taurus, and this was the first 9mm in the house on a more than passing basis. At about the same time she discovered practical pistol shooting, and started shooting local competitions pretty much every month, with practice a couple times every week. In the next 16 months she put over 100k rounds through the pistol. How do I know for sure it was over 100k rounds? Because she basically only shot reloads, I have a log of every round I have ever reloaded, that was the only 9mm we had, and I made and logged over 100k rounds of 9mm in that 16 months period. Because we have picked up other 9mm pistols since then I have no idea of the total round count through the weapon, but I would venture to guess well over 150k rounds. She switched to a S&W 5906 as her primary fun gun in 1990.

She still has that PT99 today, it is among her favorites. It is shot so loose that if you hold it and twist your hand real fast it rattles like a string of tin cans. The groups at 25 yards are something like 6". It is flat worn out, but it still goes bang ever time you pull the trigger. It has had one parts failure in all this time, the trigger bar broke, and Taurus sent us a new one free of charge.

Keep in mind, I am not a Taurus fan, and this is only one of two Taurus weapons we own, but it has been an outstanding value. She has more than gotten her money's worth out of it.

T!


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 23, 2020)

Hello Token,

I also have a couple Taurus 99;s. One has a hammer drop safety and one does not.
They are big pistols but there isn't much difference in length of trigger pull between double and single action which is unusual.
I believe Taurus makes guns which are surprisingly good when compared to the models they appear to be "copied" from.
After 150K rounds, how do the frame rails look? Which parts wore first?
I also thought the S&W 5906 would make a nice combination for a carry gun until I got one and realized how heavy it was.

- Ivan.


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## soulezoo (Oct 26, 2020)

I've got a 5906. When you're out of ammo, it can be wielded to great effect as a club. Or boat anchor. For the USS Gerald R Ford. Seriously though, it's a safe queen now as I have several better options to play with.

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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 26, 2020)

Hello soulezoo,

I bought my 5906 used. The weight might have been why the former owner got rid of it.
It looked to be in very good shape and the price was right.
I picked up a S&W Model 39 quite a while back and thought it was a very nice handling pistol. Accuracy wasn't excellent but it wasn't bad either. I just didn't have much confidence in the durability of the aluminum frame and how its locking surfaces would hold up with use so I wanted a steel version, preferably stainless steel. I had not figured on the double stack version being that much heavier.
I am still looking for a Model 639 but finding one is pretty unlikely considering how seldom I actually go to shows any more.

- Ivan.


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## Token (Nov 12, 2020)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello Token,
> 
> I also have a couple Taurus 99;s. One has a hammer drop safety and one does not.
> They are big pistols but there isn't much difference in length of trigger pull between double and single action which is unusual.
> ...



The frame rails themselves actually look fine. The areas under the rails, facing outward on the frame, are a bit worn, I would say that was where the greatest wear was. The barrel rattles a bit much in the bushing and at the rear lock.

The pistol is perfectly OK to shoot, just a bit loose.

Yeah, the 5906 is a full size service double stack pistol. What is interesting is it is not really any larger than the 1st and 2nd gen single stack pistols, like the 39 and 539. Those pistols had thicker factory grip panels, so the total thickness of the grip is very close, but the 5906 just feels bigger, meatier, in the hand. The 3rd gen single stacks are noticeably thinner. My most carried is typically a 3913 LS, but I have a CS9 I really like also.

T!


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## ARTESH (Jul 23, 2021)

Technically not a "Fire Arm", but it can kill!





About writings on the blade:



> Zulfiqar - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...

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## GrauGeist (Jul 23, 2021)

ARTESH said:


> Technically not a "Fire Arm", but it can kill!


I have this near my bed - very effective for home defense.


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## ARTESH (Jul 23, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> I have this near my bed - very effective for home defense.


photo is not shown!

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## Donivanp (Jul 23, 2021)

Springfield 1911, SW .40 and a 80% milled out AR-15. Effective all, but the 1911 is my love.

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## SaparotRob (Jul 23, 2021)

Gotta' love the classics!

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## XBe02Drvr (Jul 23, 2021)

Thompson Center .50 cal Hawken, Hopkins & Allen .45 cal flintlock Kentucky, 1873 Springfield .45-70 trapdoor converted to cap and ball, Remington .44 cal 1861 New Model Army by Uberti, 1895 Chilean Mauser in 7x57, and a couple "modern" deer rifles (1952 .270 and 1965? .30-30).

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## GrauGeist (Jul 23, 2021)

ARTESH said:


> photo is not shown!


How about now?

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## SaparotRob (Jul 23, 2021)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Thompson Center .50 cal Hawken, Hopkins & Allen .45 cal flintlock Kentucky, 1873 Springfield .45-70 trapdoor converted to cap and ball, Remington .44 cal 1861 New Model Army by Uberti, 1895 Chilean Mauser in 7x57, and a couple "modern" deer rifles (1952 .270 and 1965? .30-30).


Classics indeed!

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## ARTESH (Jul 23, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> How about now?
> 
> View attachment 633295


So beautiful!

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## GrauGeist (Jul 23, 2021)

ARTESH said:


> So beautiful!


Thank you!

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## FowellBox (Jul 23, 2021)

As has been mentioned earlier, gun ownership in England is made very difficult but I have a 2 barrelled pinfire, a pinfire revolver, A pinfire shotgun with a Damascus barrell and an unidentified bolt action rifle that has been turned into a shotgun and needs a new stock, which is why I bought it many years ago for 6 British pounds!
I have also made non-working replicas of a Colt Dragoon, a Colt Pocket revolver (in stainless steel) complete with wooden case and accessories and a Remington New Model Army.

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## ARTESH (Jul 23, 2021)

FowellBox said:


> As has been mentioned earlier, gun ownership in England is made very difficult but I have a 2 barrelled pinfire, a pinfire revolver, A pinfire shotgun with a Damascus barrell and an unidentified bolt action rifle that has been turned into a shotgun and needs a new stock, which is why I bought it many years ago for 6 British pounds!
> I have also made non-working replicas of a Colt Dragoon, a Colt Pocket revolver (in stainless steel) complete with wooden case and accessories and a Remington New Model Army.


Wow, mate! Nice Collection you have!

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## Donivanp (Jul 23, 2021)

SaparotRob said:


> Gotta' love the classics!


Gotta love that if you need to use it in the worse way, with a .45 ACP, even if you miss your target, you left a massive impression.

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## at6 (Jul 23, 2021)

ARTESH said:


> Technically not a "Fire Arm", but it can kill!
> 
> View attachment 633291
> 
> ...


It's beautiful !!!!

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## at6 (Jul 23, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> How about now?
> 
> View attachment 633295


Also beautiful.

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## Ivan1GFP (Jul 27, 2021)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Thompson Center .50 cal Hawken, Hopkins & Allen .45 cal flintlock Kentucky, 1873 Springfield .45-70 trapdoor converted to cap and ball, Remington .44 cal 1861 New Model Army by Uberti, 1895 Chilean Mauser in 7x57, and a couple "modern" deer rifles (1952 .270 and 1965? .30-30).


Now WHY would someone convert a Trapdoor Springfield into a cap and ball?
Seems kind of retrograde to me. I also have a Trapdoor Springfield in .45-70 but in a Carbine length.
I tend not to be a fan of those. My preference is for the 1874 Sharps guns in .45-70 and Browning BPCR in .40-65.
Sharps carry the Pedersoli high-grade sights for the most part.
IMR 3031 works pretty well for a propellant and bullets are 450 grain Lee mould cast of wheel weights and actually weigh about 460 grains.

- Ivan.


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## XBe02Drvr (Jul 27, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Now WHY would someone convert a Trapdoor Springfield into a cap and ball?
> Seems kind of retrograde to me. I also have a Trapdoor Springfield in .45-70 but in a Carbine length.


Necessity. My 1873 Carbine was an attic find while helping a neighbor move, and the barrel was shot and the trapdoor missing. The modern replacement barrels were way too expensive for a college freshman in 1966, and came in rifle length only. Numrich Arms offered a drop-in muzzle loader conversion kit for $29.95 and free shipping. No brainer. The guys at various muzzle loading shoots I went to looked it over and said it was a conversion from an 1861 Robbins & Lawrence (Springfield) .58 rifle musket, not a new manufacture 1873, this from seeing only the lock and stock.
This piece shoots hand cast .445 round balls and Maxi Slugs and has served me well over the years.









From the markings, I'm guessing this was issued to Able Troop, Eigth Squadron, Third Brigade, Second Cavalry? Don't know much about cavalry unit organization back in the day.

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## ARTESH (Jul 27, 2021)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Necessity. My 1873 Carbine was an attic find while helping a neighbor move, and the barrel was shot and the trapdoor missing. The modern replacement barrels were way too expensive for a college freshman in 1966, and came in rifle length only. Numrich Arms offered a drop-in muzzle loader conversion kit for $29.95 and free shipping. No brainer. The guys at various muzzle loading shoots I went to looked it over and said it was a conversion from an 1861 Robbins & Lawrence (Springfield) .58 rifle musket, not a new manufacture 1873, this from seeing only the lock and stock.
> This piece has served me well over the years.
> View attachment 633679
> 
> ...


It is very interesting! both back story you've told and the gun, itself.

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## Ivan1GFP (Jul 27, 2021)

Hello XBe02Drvr,

I was offered a Trapdoor Springfield at a very good price many years ago. I chose not to buy it because it appeared to me that the action had been "blown up" at some point and the breech block did not align or latch properly. I passed on it.
My actual Trapdoor Springfield Carbine is in very good shape, but I believe it is a reproduction without any collector value.
I tend to load my .45-70 rounds on the warm side and even on 10+ pound Sharps rifles, the recoil is quite noticeable. The Trapdoor is a much lighter gun and the recoil would simply be painful. In actual service, the .45-70-450 loads were reduced for use in the carbines and I don't cast any .45 caliber rifle bullets lighter than about 410 grains and have never worked up reduced loads.
I found that the powders needed for reduced loads such as IMR 4198 were giving way too much shot to shot variations in Muzzle Velocity (up to about 150 fps) because of the fairly small powder charges in a very large case.

Black powder might work better for reduced loads, but I don't tend to use black powder where I don't have to because I know black powder tends to be very hard on guns. Folks who are shooting 10 rounds or so during a range session may never see this, but I was running upwards of 100 rounds per session through a couple black powder Sharps guns and the etching on the stainless steel breech seals was very noticeable after a while.
The muzzleloader shooters were typically running about 5 rounds or less for the afternoon and a powder flask full of powder was generally enough for the day. I usually brought a full flask / measure and a 1 pound can that I refilled from 5 pound bags.
I tend not to use Pyrodex because the cost is several times that of Black Powder but I also know it is much less erosive on guns.

- Ivan.

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## XBe02Drvr (Jul 27, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> I tend not to use Pyrodex because the cost is several times that of Black Powder but I also know it is much less erosive on guns.


I like Pyro for my percussion guns; peak accuracy seems to come at lighter loads, but it doesn't work worth a damn in flintlocks. It does, however make for easier cleaning and less corrosion/erosion, and the price of black powder around here is nearly that of pyro. (particularly restrictive state laws about handling and storage) I don't shoot as much as you do, because of time and distance to ranges, so I get most of a year out of a one pound jar of powder. (Four years in the case of FFFFG flintlock primer.)


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## Ivan1GFP (Jul 28, 2021)

If I recall correctly, Goex black powder in 5 pound bags was about $6 per pound or maybe even a bit less.
Pyrodex was about $18 / pound at the time but this was all around 20-25 years ago.

Pyrodex is a bit harder to light. That was one of its safety claims if I remember right.  I have used a few cans of it over the years.
I only own one Flinch Lock and have never fired it. It is a very nice looking Tower Sea Service Pistol (smooth bore) that my Fiancée gave me and we have been married almost 25 years now. Gun was made in Japan I believe. I have a few flints for it but usually have a piece of wood installed in place of the flint so it can be dry fired. I have no idea if the Frizzen is hardened or not.

Typical loads for the .54 cal Sharps guns is around 60-65 grains (by volume) of FFFg. I started with FFg but found the finer grain powder burned cleaner though I could not run quite as hot a load. That is with a Pedersoli gun. 
There is another gun that was also nominally a .54 cal but took a different size bullet and had a significantly larger chamber. With that gun, I was typically running 75-80 grain charges.

At one point, I was making paper ca'tridges for the Sharps guns with wrapping tissue. Nitrated paper isn't really necessary. They were assembled on a dowel and were held together with a couple swipes of a glue stick. They worked fine but took too long to make.
I found that a test tube rack and some plastic test tubes that my Wife got for me were a much more efficient way to go.
Filling 20-30 tubes with powder charges while others were checking targets was easy. With the caps just snapped on but not screwed down, the tube was not airtight but it wasn't going to get set off by a spark or spill if dropped and the tubes fit nicely into the Sharps' open breech to load a charge behind a bullet.
With that setup and a tin of lubed bullets, I could shoot fast enough to rival a single shot cartridge rifle and definitely fast enough to get the rifle pretty hot.

I also have a few percussion revolvers but the only one I really shot a lot was the Ruger Old Army in stainless steel. Clean up was a lot easier than other guns. I also found out that unsized .452 diameter Semi Wadcutters that I was casting for my .45 ACP guns worked just fine from the Old Army. The accuracy was as good as the lead balls and they were a whole lot cheaper and easier to get.
There are a couple that I have only ever taken out of the box to admire as a bit of history.

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (Jul 31, 2021)

A couple photographs:

The Sharps gun with the Schnabel and checkering is actually quite accurate.
The other Sharps gun has a much larger chamber and can't keep all the shots on paper at 50 yards.
The first two shots I ever fired from it were interesting because they actually touched each other at 50 yards, but after that, it never shot well again. FFg or FFFg makes no difference and different bullets or powder charges make no real difference.







The other photograph is my Tower Sea Service pistol.
The bore measures just a touch over .70 caliber.






- Ivan.

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## javlin (Jul 31, 2021)

Nice pieces Ivan I have been trying to acquire replica 1860/65 Colt pieces .36/.44 on auctions closest I came was within $25.

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## XBe02Drvr (Jul 31, 2021)

javlin said:


> Nice pieces Ivan I have been trying to acquire replica 1860/65 Colt pieces .36/.44 on auctions closest I came was within $25.


I bought my Remington New Model Army (by Uberti, but before they were brave enough to label them prominently and sold through Navy Arms) brand new for a whopping $79....in 1971. Still shoots more accurately than I do!

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## ARTESH (Jul 31, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> The other photograph is my Tower Sea Service pistol.
> The bore measures just a touch over .70 caliber.
> 
> View attachment 634926
> ...


My ex fiance has given me a decorative lighter just like this! I still have it. Infact, only thing I kept from her is that lighter.


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## javlin (Jul 31, 2021)

XBe02Drvr said:


> I bought my Remington New Model Army (by Uberti, but before they were brave enough to label them prominently and sold through Navy Arms) brand new for a whopping $79....in 1971. Still shoots more accurately than I do!


Yeah I have been seeing anywhere from $225/350 some more with the case with the trimmings 5 and up 

Here's one up for auction tomorrow prefer octagon barrel myself 
CVA .44 CAL. 8" BLACK POWDER REVOLVER COLT REPLICA​Bid is low now $95 I see 200/225 +18% and shipping is it worth 275/300?


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## drgondog (Jul 31, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> A couple photographs:
> 
> The Sharps gun with the Schnabel and checkering is actually quite accurate.
> The other Sharps gun has a much larger chamber and can't keep all the shots on paper at 50 yards.
> ...


Interesting about your second Sharp's. Have you gotten a casting of both the chamber And the bore at both chamber and muzzle?Checked for Diameter to spec?

If the chamber is too long (shoulder to barrel bore) you have a free bore situation with unpredictable results for black powder/lead bullet. 

Maybe you have just enough shoulder on the barrel that a gunsmith can thread one or more turns to close the chamber free bore dimension?


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## XBe02Drvr (Jul 31, 2021)

javlin said:


> Yeah I have been seeing anywhere from $225/350 some more with the case with the trimmings 5 and up
> 
> Here's one up for auction tomorrow prefer octagon barrel myself
> CVA .44 CAL. 8" BLACK POWDER REVOLVER COLT REPLICA​Bid is low now $95 I see 200/225 +18% and shipping is it worth 275/300?


I can't see what seems so interesting about the Colts. I've beat Colt shooters at black powder events, then just for giggles, swapped guns and been consistently beat by my own Remington in the other guy's hands. The Colt's bullet strike seems to wander all over the paper as the gun heats up.
Also, the New Model Army is a true six shooter, unlike the Colt, which is dangerous to carry around with the hammer resting on a cap. The NMA has hammer notches in the cylinder between the chambers, so you can safely load and cap all six and ride around all day with it in your holster.

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## Shortround6 (Jul 31, 2021)

It's mystique of using that notch filed in the hammer nose as a back sight


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## XBe02Drvr (Jul 31, 2021)

Shortround6 said:


> It's mystique of using that notch filed in the hammer nose as a back sight


Maybe that's why their shots wander all over the paper as the piece heats up. The New Model Army has a sight grooved into the top strap and doesn't do that. Any wandering that occurs is the shooter's fault.


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## Ivan1GFP (Aug 1, 2021)

drgondog said:


> Interesting about your second Sharp's. Have you gotten a casting of both the chamber And the bore at both chamber and muzzle?Checked for Diameter to spec?
> 
> If the chamber is too long (shoulder to barrel bore) you have a free bore situation with unpredictable results for black powder/lead bullet.
> 
> Maybe you have just enough shoulder on the barrel that a gunsmith can thread one or more turns to close the chamber free bore dimension?



Hello Drgondog,

I don't think you understand. These are not cartridge guns. They are nominally .54 cal black powder as in loose black powder fired by a cap. For a .54 cal muzzle loader, the typical projectile is a .535 diameter patched ball or a slightly larger diameter Minie ball.

The Sharps on top has a tight enough bore that a Minie ball cast of wheel weights works just fine. The wheel weight alloy is hard enough that it would not expand if it were used in a muzzle loader, but engraves just fine.
The Sharps on bottom has a larger diameter bore and needs a different sized Minie ball or a "cantilever" bullet that has a base with a ridge and has several diameters of rings. The last ring is so large that it WILL engage the rifling no matter what.
I have Cerrosafe, but have not bothered to do a chamber cast or a cast at the muzzle. Instead, I have slugged them with a soft lead projectile. Projectile measured fine.
I BELIEVE the problem is that there is a loose spot in the barrel or that the rifling may not be consistent. Once I bought the second BP Sharps, I didn't spend a lot of time trying to diagnose the problem.



javlin said:


> Yeah I have been seeing anywhere from $225/350 some more with the case with the trimmings 5 and up
> 
> Here's one up for auction tomorrow prefer octagon barrel myself
> CVA .44 CAL. 8" BLACK POWDER REVOLVER COLT REPLICA​Bid is low now $95 I see 200/225 +18% and shipping is it worth 275/300?



Hello Javlin,

I had no idea the Colt 1860 Army revolvers cost that much these days.
About 25 years ago, Colt had a short production run of 1860 Army revolvers (probably made in Italy of course) that were very very well finished and came in a Colt labeled box. I bought one. It is one of the few guns that I have not found some kind of manufacturing fault in. I didn't shoot it because I had plenty of other BP revolvers that I didn't mind if I put some wear on. Shooting black powder is pretty hard on a gun.

At one point I was considering buying a replica 1860 Army in stainless steel. I don't recall if I actually did or not.

- Ivan.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 1, 2021)

Sharps did manufacture a rifle that was chambered for .50-70 Gov. metallic cartridges and some BP Sharps were converted to accept that.


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## XBe02Drvr (Aug 1, 2021)

I just stumbled on this video of a guy shooting a replica New Model Army nonstop til it fails, no barrel swabbing or nipple picking or cleaning of any kind. Awesome! 108 consecutive rounds. I can't imagine subjecting mine to such abuse, but nice to know she can do it. Try that with your Colt!


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## drgondog (Aug 1, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello Drgondog,
> 
> I don't think you understand. These are not cartridge guns. They are nominally .54 cal black powder as in loose black powder fired by a cap. For a .54 cal muzzle loader, the typical projectile is a .535 diameter patched ball or a slightly larger diameter Minie ball.
> 
> ...


IVAN - you are correct, I was obviously thinking metallic cartridge conversion.


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## Snautzer01 (Aug 1, 2021)

XBe02Drvr said:


> I just stumbled on this video of a guy shooting a replica New Model Army nonstop til it fails, no barrel swabbing or nipple picking or cleaning of any kind. Awesome! 108 consecutive rounds. I can't imagine subjecting mine to such abuse, but nice to know she can do it. Try that with your Colt!



nipple picking??? Googled it. Now my eyes are one fire. What do you mean?

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## Ivan1GFP (Aug 1, 2021)

XBe02Drvr said:


> I just stumbled on this video of a guy shooting a replica New Model Army nonstop til it fails, no barrel swabbing or nipple picking or cleaning of any kind. Awesome! 108 consecutive rounds. I can't imagine subjecting mine to such abuse, but nice to know she can do it. Try that with your Colt!



Hello XBe02Drvr,

I must have done at least that number of shots without ANY failures with a Ruger Old Army. He actually had plenty of failures during that run and 108 shots isn't that much. That is just over ONE box of bullets and when you are casting your own, it is really no big deal at all. 
(With pistols, I usually take at least a couple hundred bullets and with rifles, I don't usually go out with less than 100 bullets and usually it is a lot more than that. You know cleaning will be a b*tch, so might as well make it worthwhile.)

The barrel on these revolvers doesn't need swabbing and I don't even own a nipple pick. The trick is to use a good lube OVER the bullet. I don't use a grease wad or any kind of wad at all. Sometimes a cap gets blown to pieces and the fragments need to get picked out before reloading but that is pretty obvious and not hard to do.
The lube I was using is a mixture of Crisco shortening and Beeswax mixed in proportions to stay soft but not melt too easily in the summer heat. You don't want oil getting into caps or the powder charge of course. I think I might have tried Vaseline instead of Crisco but don't recall how that turned out.

I believe that fellow needs a good inline brass capper.

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (Aug 1, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> Sharps did manufacture a rifle that was chambered for .50-70 Gov. metallic cartridges and some BP Sharps were converted to accept that.



Hello GrauGeist,

I know these conversions were done, but you have to wonder a bit because the only parts that would be retained would be the operating lever, stock and receiver.
The barrel is way oversize and can't be rechambered. The hammer is shaped wrong for hitting the wacky firing pin on a Sharps. The breech block is a totally different configuration.
That is on the assumption that the Sharps isn't one of the "slant breech" guns at which point even the receiver won't work.

- Ivan.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 1, 2021)

My Stepdad had an 1863 Carbine which had been converted.
I don't recall much in the way of details, except that it was a falling-block and still had a patchbox on the stock.


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## XBe02Drvr (Aug 1, 2021)

Snautzer01 said:


> nipple picking??? Googled it. Now my eyes are one fire. What do you mean?


I'm sure your comment was tongue in cheek, but for the benefit of any uninitiated spectators, the nipple is the little protuberance that the percussion cap is pressed onto. After firing, sometimes fragments of the cap are lodged in the nipple's surrounding cavity, interfering with placing a cap for the next shot. A mechanic's pick or similar tool is handy for prying loose these fragments.


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## Snautzer01 (Aug 1, 2021)

No tonque in cheek intended. I realley did not know. Thank you for explaining.

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## Jayl (Aug 1, 2021)

Here is what I currently have.

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## ARTESH (Aug 1, 2021)

Nice Collection you have, 

 Jayl
.


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## Jayl (Aug 1, 2021)

ARTESH said:


> Nice Collection you have,
> 
> Jayl
> .


Thank you, I do still need a FAL in my life. I'll have to go back through this thread and catch up, it's been a few years since I last viewed it. A lot of nice guns in here.


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## ARTESH (Aug 1, 2021)

Jayl said:


> Thank you, I do still need a FAL in my life. I'll have to go back through this thread and catch up, it's been a few years since I last viewed it. A lot of nice guns in here.


Unfortunatly there is no good story behind this FAL. Rifle now rests in Captured Armaments Section of Army Museum at Saadabad, Tehran. When it reopens, I'll take lots of photos. there some cool pieces to show.


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## XBe02Drvr (Aug 1, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> He actually had plenty of failures during that run


You can't blame bad caps on the gun.


Ivan1GFP said:


> The barrel on these revolvers doesn't need swabbing


Maybe mine's got bad rifling or something. I always get plenty of lead fouling in the bore during each shooting session, despite using crisco and beeswax pack over the ball to prevent flash over. I don't have a mold for conical pistol bullets, so shoot round balls. Tried a lubed .445 maxi once, but it only left room for about 20 grains of FFFG.


Ivan1GFP said:


> I believe that fellow needs a good inline brass capper.


Roger, concur. That does make a difference.


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## Ivan1GFP (Aug 2, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> My Stepdad had an 1863 Carbine which had been converted.
> I don't recall much in the way of details, except that it was a falling-block and still had a patchbox on the stock.


I have always wanted one of the 1863 Sharps military rifles. Mine are both 1858 commercial types.
In my photograph, note that the gun on the bottom has a latch for the operating lever to keep it closed. That makes pretty good sense considering that if the chamber is opened, the powder charge dribbles out and the cap will probably get knocked off the nipple as well.
The other gun doesn't have such a latch but doesn't really need it because the lever has a spring detent that is quite strong; It won't open by accident. I wonder what would happen to such a latch on a conversion gun??? I know some conversions kept the tape primer feed and Quigley's Rifle still had the coffee grinder in the stock!

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (Aug 2, 2021)

XBe02Drvr said:


> You can't blame bad caps on the gun.
> ..........
> Roger, concur. That does make a difference.



I am not so convinced that the fellow had bad caps. Part of it might be that he wasn't seating the caps solid on the nipple which he figured out part way through and started using another tool to do this. If you use a brass capper instead of plastic, you don't have this problem and brass is a whole lot safer than steel when working with powder or caps.
If this was the cause, it is simply operator error.
Another possibility is that the gun has a light hammer strike and a cap that is seated too high absorbs enough energy so it doesn't set off the cap.... Or the hammer is so light as to be unreliable. My Redhawk .44 Mag has a great trigger pull but is simply unreliable with some brands of primers. The Ruger Old Army is basically an early Blackhawk action before the modern updates and is VERY precisely made. It can even be dry fired because without a cap in place, the hammer does not contact any of the nipples.
On the old model Blackhawks, you could hear three distinct clicks as you cocked the hammer. On the newer guns, you only hear two clicks. On the older guns, it was unsafe to carry the gun with the hammer down on a loaded round. I believe the newer guns have a transfer bar or something similar so it is perfectly safe that way. I can't recall it really is a transfer bar though I can probably pull mine out of the safe and look. I will not be taking it apart if that is necessary to find out though.



XBe02Drvr said:


> Maybe mine's got bad rifling or something. I always get plenty of lead fouling in the bore during each shooting session, despite using crisco and beeswax pack over the ball to prevent flash over. I don't have a mold for conical pistol bullets, so shoot round balls. Tried a lubed .445 maxi once, but it only left room for about 20 grains of FFFG.



Please note that the fellow in the test ran 108 rounds through his Pietta gun and didn't get enough leading to comment about. There is something going on with your pistol.
.445 inch is WAY too small for these revolvers. The nominal diameter for lead balls recommended for these guns is .454 inch. The bullets I am casting normally get sized to .452 inch when loaded in a .45 ACP cartridge. They are probably about .453 inch as cast.

One possibility I am thinking is that your bullets are stripping when they engage the rifling.
Consider that a .454 inch lead ball has very little bearing surface to engage rifling. It is not quite as bad as it sounds because when it is loaded, a little ring is typically cut from the ball and there is now more bearing surface. No matter how big a lead bullet started as, it is only as big as your cylinder's bores after it is loaded. (THIS IS IMPORTANT!!!!)

Revolvers tend to be very hard on bullets. 
Anecdotally, I used wheel weight for all the bullets I cast. If they can't be done properly with wheel weights and without things like gas checks, I don't cast for that caliber.
I first tried to cast for .357 Magnum because that was a caliber that I tended to shoot a lot. I tend to load the rounds to factory velocities or slightly higher. (160 grain bullet at 1250 FPS from a 4 inch barrel.) With most commercial cast bullets, that does not work. It did not work with my own cast bullets either though they worked just fine in .38 Special loads. The lead buildup was terrible in Magnum loads.
When I started shooting .45-70, I also started casting my own bullets out of wheel weights. Commercial .45 caliber lead rifle bullets were either too light or too soft or visually poor quality. The interesting thing is that even though my loads were pushing a 460 grain bullet to almost 1600 FPS which is a lot faster than the .357 Magnum, I wasn't getting any leading at all. Lube was the same Alox sticks I had been using. (????)
Seems to me that with a revolver, the bullet comes out of the cylinder with a fair amount of velocity before it reaches the forcing cone and engages rifling and instantly takes a spin. I believe this puts a lot of stress on a bullet and may strip it unless it is very strong alloy. This gets a whole lot worse if the bullet is undersize.
There is not this situation with a rifle and also not as much gas cutting of the bullet.

Now back to your gun.

If I were you, I would slug the barrel and see what the rifling groove diameter is. I would then measure the bores of each chamber in the cylinder to see what their diameters are. I suspect if there is nothing obviously wrong with the rifling in the barrel, then the bores of the cylinder are just a touch smaller than the rifling grooves which means the bullets are going to be undersize by the time they hit rifling and will strip more easily. 

Hope this helps.

- Ivan.


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## XBe02Drvr (Aug 2, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> .445 inch is WAY too small for these revolvers. The nominal diameter for lead balls recommended for these guns is .454 inch.


The shop that sold me my gun sold me a .451 mold which they said was correct for it and I cast up a bunch of those. I found it took an inordinate amount of effort to force them into the chambers and they shaved off a veritable O ring of lead from the ball. I only fired two cylinders worth of those and they were all over the paper, so I started using .445s I had cast for the Numrich instant muzzle loader and the accuracy improved dramatically. From a bench I can keep all the shots in a six inch circle at fifty feet, but of course, nothing like that offhand. I'm convinced the gun can shoot way better than I can. My vision isn't all that great, which is why I had to give up flying.


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## Ivan1GFP (Aug 2, 2021)

XBe02Drvr said:


> The shop that sold me my gun sold me a .451 mold which they said was correct for it and I cast up a bunch of those. I found it took an inordinate amount of effort to force them into the chambers and they shaved off a veritable O ring of lead from the ball. I only fired two cylinders worth of those and they were all over the paper, so I started using .445s I had cast for the Numrich instant muzzle loader and the accuracy improved dramatically. From a bench I can keep all the shots in a six inch circle at fifty feet, but of course, nothing like that offhand. I'm convinced the gun can shoot way better than I can. My vision isn't all that great, which is why I had to give up flying.



I went in the basement this morning to look for my BP shooting kit to confirm some of the claims I have been making.
I know where the range box should be but I can't get to the shelf to look because a lot of stuff got piled up in front of that shelf when we had some construction done a couple years back. It also doesn't help that my Daughter's stuff is also there now that she has moved back in after graduation....
Because I cast most of my own bullets, I haven't bought commercial cast bullets except in a couple calibers in a very long time.

I suspect you are probably correct in that the proper diameter of round balls for the ".44" cal revolvers is actually .451 inch and not .454 that I was remembering. I also suspect that I am misremembering whether or not the 200 grain Lee SWC bullets I cast were sized or not before use in the revolvers. That would make the proper diameter of bullet to be .451 - .452 inch instead of the .453 - .454 inch that I had posted earlier. I know that I wasn't shaving any lead from the 200 grain SWCs in loading. That would have been not so easy anyway because they were fairly hard wheel weights and not pure lead. I also know that they were seated so the noses were just about flush with the cylinder and that they didn't back out under recoil because that would have prevented cylinder rotation and jammed the gun.

I didn't bench test these revolvers much because they tend to leave an amazing amount of residue on the rests but I did test them enough to be certain that the 200 SWC was no worse in accuracy than the normal lead round balls which were about 160 grains or so and that both were pretty comparable in accuracy to a typical cartridge revolver load (2-3 inch groups if everything was done right).
At the time my eyesight was a lot better than it is now and off the bench, I was able to get sub 1 inch groups if the gun and ammunition were capable such as with a tuned M1911 .45 Auto or a .22 Target pistol.
I don't recall if I still have any of the chronograph data written down, but at the time I thought it was interesting that these .44 cal revolvers were pretty much the equivalent of a modern ,38 Special.

I am still suspecting the cylinder bores on your revolver are a bit too tight.

- Ivan.

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## Shortround6 (Aug 2, 2021)

It's been a lot of years for me but I seem to remember that the Ruger used a slightly different diameter than everything else. 
.457 springs to mind but could be wrong? I think it stands out because it was an oddball for .45 cal guns.
Old .45 Colts were .454 while newer Colts (and reproductions) and the .45 automatics were all .451-452.
many .45 cal rifles were actually .458. 


The .451 sounds about right for the .44 cal revolvers. 
Tolerances were not what they could have been. 

Wheel weights maybe a little hard. A softer lead _may_ expand slightly as it goes though an oversize bore and help seal it up. An undersized projectile that doesn't swage up (I know it is a contradiction) allows for gas cutting and quick leading of the rifling.

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## XBe02Drvr (Aug 2, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> At the time my eyesight was a lot better than it is now


My eye sight deteriorated over the years, leading me to give up flying and impacting my shooting accuracy. Then I had cataract surgery including custom fabricated lenses which reduced my astigmatism bigtime, and my shooting improved significantly. That was eight years ago, and now it's deteriorating again.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 2, 2021)

I used to cast from diving weights, because the lead's purity.

I also recall in my Lee's reloading handbook, a specific section regarding bullet casting (loads, data and such) and in that section, specifically warns against using wheelweight lead for black powder firearms due to it's hardness.


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## Ivan1GFP (Aug 2, 2021)

Shortround6 said:


> It's been a lot of years for me but I seem to remember that the Ruger used a slightly different diameter than everything else.
> .457 springs to mind but could be wrong? I think it stands out because it was an oddball for .45 cal guns.
> Old .45 Colts were .454 while newer Colts (and reproductions) and the .45 automatics were all .451-452.
> many .45 cal rifles were actually .458.
> ...


Hello Shortround6. 

I believe the .45 Colt is still .454 inch because the .454 Casull is basically just a lengthened .45 Colt with higher pressure limits.
The .45 ACP is nominally .4515 inch and cast bullets for it are typically .452 inch.
Perhaps the Old Army does have different diameters. I know that at one point I was using the same store bought lead balls for both Old Army's and other revolvers and they worked fine in all the guns. I just got tired of looking for the lead round balls and paying for them.
There are some revolvers that come with cylinders for both cartridges, so I am not exactly sure how that works out. I actually have one, but have never fired it with .45 ACP because getting the rimless cases out would be a bit annoying.  It can also take .45 Auto Rim of course but I have never had any of those cartridges.
.45 cal rifles are STILL .458 inch today. Sometimes people size the bullets to .459 inch but I keep mine to .458 inch. It is rather amazing that in a single casting session, all the bullets which average around 460 grains will weigh within a .3 grain range high to low. Anything outside that range gets culled. The variation is a bit more between sessions but I figure that is about the same as different lots of bullets and I treat them accordingly when loading.

Softer bullets may upset enough to seal the rifling but when they hit the rifling at the forcing cone, they will also strip easier. I had no cheap source for pure lead. Wheel weights were free. After a while, I stopped casting for cartridge pistols because I went through lead way too quickly. The extra quality of home cast bullets made no difference when most of the shooting was not done from the bench.

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (Aug 2, 2021)

This is the first .45 Auto I ever owned.
It has had most of its major pieces replaced or upgraded and has actually had a LOT of use. Rebuilding it for accuracy taught me quite a lot and forced me to buy the tools I would need to work on other guns.
The original slide was replaced with a Gold Cup slide to get adjustable sights. The original slide sat in my parts box for years until a friend of mine broke the slide on his gun when it blew up. He needed a replacement slide and I was never going to use it again. Giving it to him was a simple karma thing, but the fellow gave me a few unexpected karma type gifts in return.

As a final reliability test after I fitted the barrel, I ran just over 500 rounds through it over several weeks without any cleaning. The gun was filthy but there was no significant lead buildup in the barrel and it had zero malfunctions.

- Ivan.

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## Shortround6 (Aug 2, 2021)

Unfortunately you cannot go by the nominal dimension of a cartridge in it's name. 

For your consideration (and all factory cartridges) 
.218 Bee.
.219 Zipper
.220 Swift
.221 Fireball
.222 Remington
.223 Remington
.224 Valkyrie 
.225 Winchester

All use .224 bullets. 

I have left out a few. 

The .45 ACP
.45 Colt (new)
.454 Casull.
.460 S & W

all use .452 bullets.

Colt changed over from .454 to .451-2 during/after WW II on the 1873 Peacemaker. 
A lot of the commercial tooling from pre WW II was stored outside during the war and ruined. 
When the Peacemaker was brought back in 1956 (Cowboy TV shows) Colt used the rifling tooling for the .45 ACP to make Peacemaker barrels and so changed the diameter by a few thousands of an inch. BTW any "Buntline Specials" from this era use barrels purchased by Colt from outside vendor/s. Colt's rifling machine only had an 8in stroke so max barrel length for a Colt made barrel was 7.5 inches.


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## Ivan1GFP (Aug 2, 2021)

Shortround6 said:


> For your consideration (and all factory cartridges)
> .218 Bee.
> .219 Zipper
> .220 Swift
> ...



Hello Shortround6,

That may be true today, but I don't believe that was always the case with these calibers especially with older guns.
As for .45 Colt, I don't believe I ever did any significant reloading for it if any at all. I only have one gun in that caliber and it is nothing special or particularly interesting, so it is one I never shot a lot.



XBe02Drvr said:


> My eye sight deteriorated over the years, leading me to give up flying and impacting my shooting accuracy. Then I had cataract surgery including custom fabricated lenses which reduced my astigmatism bigtime, and my shooting improved significantly. That was eight years ago, and now it's deteriorating again.



Hello XBe02Drvr,

I also had cataract surgery and can say that although it improved my distance vision in one eye, the need for reading glasses all the time is a serious problem. I know I don't shoot nearly as well after the surgery because it is quite a bit harder to get a clear sight picture. Since the surgery, my sight has also gotten significantly worse and my eyes don't have any kind of "agility" and the back and forth between sights and target doesn't work all that well any more. I misread things all the time especially on paper.



GrauGeist said:


> I used to cast from diving weights, because the lead's purity.
> 
> I also recall in my Lee's reloading handbook, a specific section regarding bullet casting (loads, data and such) and in that section, specifically warns against using wheelweight lead for black powder firearms due to it's hardness.



Hello GrauGeist,

Most people equate black powder with Muzzle Loaders in which the bullet needs to be manually engraved at the muzzle of the gun. The alternative is patching and that requires that the bullet be soft enough so that the patching material can get a bite into the lead because without it, a round ball has very little bearing surface to engage rifling.

Note that with revolvers and with the Sharps guns, the bullets can be a lot harder because it is the force of firing that engraves the bullet as with modern cartridge guns.

As an aside, I have always wondered what kind of velocity the Quigley Sharps Rifle was getting with a .45-110-540. I have a rifle that is pretty similar in configuration except that the sights are still the ones from the factory and it is a .45-70. Quigley used 540 grain paper patched bullets which look pretty similar to the 540 grain Postell bullets I have cast before. He was using black powder as a propellant while I would be using Smokeless, but I am still curious as to whether I can reach the same velocity level without having the gun rechambered.
The 540 Postell was what I called the "Cruise Missile" bullet because it was so heavy. I never actually had a lot of success with it or with the 500 grain Schmitzer though both look more cool than the Lee 450 grain bullets.

- Ivan.


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## GrauGeist (Aug 3, 2021)

A friend gave me some .375 balls for my .36 fluted cylinder dragoon when we were at the range.
I about blew my face off with the back-charge when the round passed between the cylinder and the forming cone, not to mention scattering shooters to either side with the sheer.
Turns out he had cast some balls from wheel weights and I had charged the round under the assumption that they were pure lead.

Lesson learned...


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## Ivan1GFP (Aug 3, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> A friend gave me some .375 balls for my .36 fluted cylinder dragoon when we were at the range.
> I about blew my face off with the back-charge when the round passed between the cylinder and the forming cone, not to mention scattering shooters to either side with the sheer.
> Turns out he had cast some balls from wheel weights and I had charged the round under the assumption that they were pure lead.
> 
> Lesson learned...



Hello GrauGeist,

You might want to check the cylinder alignment or timing with the gun and also check the cylinder gap.
I have never bought a range rod for any revolver caliber, but with shorter barrel revolvers, an unsharpened pencil works reasonably well for checking alignment. It won't be nearly as precise as a range rod, but it will show when things are really far off as they were a revolver that a lady gave me after her husband died. She didn't know what to do with it and I knew her husband who I considered a cheapskate. This gun was a bit of a piece of junk and timing and alignment of chambers was all over the place especially in double action.

A lot of these BP revolvers treat cylinders as basically interchangeable and I don't think this is really a reasonable thing. There will always be some amount of gas venting out the cylinder gap unless you are shooting a Russian Nagant revolver but when things don't quite line up or when the gun wears a bit, things can get pretty bad. When pressure gets too high, I would expect gas to come out of the nipples and perhaps blow a cap off the nipple in firing if the gun didn't blow up.

- Ivan.


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## ARTESH (Aug 6, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> This is the first .45 Auto I ever owned.
> It has had most of its major pieces replaced or upgraded and has actually had a LOT of use. Rebuilding it for accuracy taught me quite a lot and forced me to buy the tools I would need to work on other guns.
> The original slide was replaced with a Gold Cup slide to get adjustable sights. The original slide sat in my parts box for years until a friend of mine broke the slide on his gun when it blew up. He needed a replacement slide and I was never going to use it again. Giving it to him was a simple karma thing, but the fellow gave me a few unexpected karma type gifts in return.
> 
> ...


Wow! So beautiful!


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## Ivan1GFP (Aug 30, 2021)

ARTESH said:


> Wow! So beautiful!


Thanks, Artesh.
Here are a few details about this pistol:
The barrel that it now has is a Ed Brown Match Grade cut rifled barrel with just about every dimension needing to be fitted.
The barrel started off as a 6 inch but obviously has been cut down. I wanted to make sure I could control how the crown was finished.
Unlike other match barrels I have worked with, this one was short chambered and needed a reamer to bring it to proper dimensions.

Background Information:
The .45 ACP cartridge headspaces on its case mouth.
Its minimum case length is 0.888 inch and maximum is 0.898 inch.
The Go gauge is 0.898 inch (minimum chamber) and the NoGo is 0.920 inch if I remember correctly.
(Buying the NoGo gauge was really a waste of money. A reasonable gun isn't going to be anywhere close to that dimension.)

I originally cut the chamber to 0.898 inch but about 20-30 rounds would leave fouling and residue and that would sometimes jam the gun. Eventually I cut the chamber longer to 0.902 inch as tested by adding shims and that cured the problem with jacketed bullets.
The sharp edge of the chamber throat would not handle lead bullets though. It would shave lead into the front of the chamber and jam after about 50 rounds or so. I had to make up some custom tools to round off the edge where the rifling began but not alter the headspace. The result after a bit of work was that would go over 500 rounds without jams even without any cleaning.

A couple years later, a friend of mine who was reloading .45 ACP in a Lee Progressive press told me that he was getting a lot of malfunctions with his Ruger .45 Auto and asked for my help in diagnosing the problem.
First thing I noticed was that he was basically using all kinds of range scrap spent brass in his reloads without any kind of sorting.
I observed that just about all the rounds he had problems with were on PMC cases.
I believe we measured the assembled rounds and found nothing at first. Then we pulled a few bullets.
While many brands of cases tend to run on the short side of SAAMI limits or sometimes even UNDER those limits, just about every PMC case was at the 0.898 inch maximum limit.
I then put a Go gauge in his Ruger pistol and found that it was at the minimum chamber headspace. I didn't have shim stock, so we just used a small piece of paper behind the gauge (about 0.002 inch) to see if it would close on that and it did not.
I informed my friend about what I had found but I don't think he really understood what I was telling him even though I had done all the measurements in front of him.

I was not about to put a chamber reamer to his gun.

- Ivan.

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## Ivan1GFP (Aug 30, 2021)

The Trapdoor "Carbine" I have probably isn't really a Carbine at all.
When seen next to a Sharps gun, it looks and feels like a carbine but by itself, it looks much more like a rifle. It does say something that up until today, I had never really taken a serious look at the gun. I had never realised how pretty this rifle really was until I was looking for the serial number to make sure it did not appear in the photographs. Engraving and bluing are 100% or pretty darn close.
The rifle is not authentic but is a H&R reproduction dating probably back to the 1970's.

Photographs below with a couple detail shots. Serial Number is masked with black paper.

- Ivan.

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## Ivan1GFP (Sep 10, 2021)

Here is a Starr Model 1863. Pretty, isn't it? The photograph really doesn't do it justice.
The design is interesting. It doesn't handle quite as nice as the Colt or Remington revolvers though.
The cylinder has extra locking notches between the normal ones so that it can be carried with all chambers loaded and capped and with the hammer down between two nipples just like the Remington.

.....I had debated whether or not to continue this discussion because it did not seem to go over well the first time.
I have had this gun for several years but only clipped the zip tie on it and checked it out about a week ago.
Unfortunately, although it looks great, in its current state, it is NOT SAFE TO SHOOT.
The gun has a serious timing issue: The hammer can be fully cocked and the cylinder may not always rotate far enough for the bolt to drop into the corresponding locking notch. It seems to happen intermittently and happens on every chamber.
Now if I had not done an inspection before firing, it would shave lead off bullets and spit garbage out the cylinder gap which is what I was describing in prior posts.

- Ivan.

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## XBe02Drvr (Sep 11, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Here is a Starr Model 1863. Pretty, isn't it? The photograph really doesn't do it justice.
> The design is interesting. It doesn't handle quite as nice as the Colt or Remington revolvers though.
> The cylinder has extra locking notches between the normal ones so that it can be carried with all chambers loaded and capped and with the hammer down between two nipples just like the Remington.
> 
> ...


Egad, that grip looks awkward! If you put any serious charge in it, looks like it would be a thumbweb gouger.
May be an optical illusion, but it looks like the cylinder locking notches are awful shallow and rather narrow. If there's even a tiny bit of slop in the timing, perhaps the locking pawl might rebound off the adjacent cylinder surface rather than capturing the notch and centering it as it does on my Remington. The way the NMA is designed, the locking pawl has a square base and just a hint of a chisel point, so if the cylinder is a degree or two lead or lag, the point will capture the notch and center it as the pawl presses home. The Starr's system looks frustrating, like a fine thread bolt and nut with no starting chamfer on either one and a propensity for cross threading. Y'all have fun now, hear?

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## GrauGeist (Sep 11, 2021)

I was encouraged (long story) to shoot our family's 100 year old .41 Colt revolver at the range one time, ages ago.
So I stepped up, glasses on, hearing gear on, checked downrange and to the left and right. Took a breath, exhaled slowly and pulled the trigger.
A cloud of smoke bellowed out of the barrel and to each side of the revolver and people went flying for cover to either side of my dock.
I nailed the target dead on, I also peppered folks to either side with lead shear.
Those old firearms were not as precise as today's weapons. The cylinder alignment was such, that as the bullet passed from cylinder to the forming cone, it projected a considerable amount of material to either side.
This was not a defect, it was simply how things were back in the day - Colt verified this when they restored the .41 for us after it was discovered in a relative's attic and sent to them to be restored.
(and then I was volunteered to test shoot it when we got it back...)

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## XBe02Drvr (Sep 11, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> This was not a defect, it was simply how things were back in the day - Colt verified this when they restored the .41 for us after it was discovered in a relative's attic and sent to them to be restored.
> (and then I was volunteered to test shoot it when we got it back...)


I hope they tightened it up a bit.
After my paternal grandfather died we were going through his possessions and found a .32 cal tilt break revolver with a legible serial number, but manufacturer illegible due to holster wear, wrapped in a bank deposit bag. Turns out he was a trustee of the local bank in a small town where he was preacher at the only church. The cylinder locking system was so loose it would have been more lethal to the shooter than the target. I took it to the local gun shop and they said it was an Iver Johnson, and they knew a collector who was looking for one, so gave me $200. They took one look at the loose cylinder and filed the firing pin on the hammer, then sold it to the collector.

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## GrauGeist (Sep 11, 2021)

XBe02Drvr said:


> I hope they tightened it up a bit.
> After my paternal grandfather died we were going through his possessions and found a .32 cal tilt break revolver with a legible serial number, but manufacturer illegible due to holster wear, wrapped in a bank deposit bag. Turns out he was a trustee of the local bank in a small town where he was preacher at the only church. The cylinder locking system was so loose it would have been more lethal to the shooter than the target. I took it to the local gun shop and they said it was an Iver Johnson, and they knew a collector who was looking for one, so gave me $200. They took one look at the loose cylinder and filed the firing pin on the hammer, then sold it to the collector.


Our .41 belinged to a distant relative of my stepad's, who had a history of being hot-tempered, unlucky at gambling and aparently, not very successful in a gunfight.
The Colt was still holstered in the gunbelt, still loaded (one spent shell) and had to be professionally refinished due to being in contact with the leather and covered in blood (his) fir nearly a century.
Colt did a fantastic job of refinishing and detailing the revolver and it was absolutely gorgeous with it's black finish and dark wooden grips (original walnut, but aged, of course).
The alignment of the cylinder was within factory specs, however, the engineering of the day was such, that there would be some sheering of the bullet. There was a considerable gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone, plus the machining of the cone itself was not as smooth as today's revolvers.

By the way, Colt had requested that they be given first consideration if my stepdad ever wanted to sell it. When he passed away recently, they were granted their wish.

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## Ivan1GFP (Sep 11, 2021)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Egad, that grip looks awkward! If you put any serious charge in it, looks like it would be a thumbweb gouger.
> May be an optical illusion, but it looks like the cylinder locking notches are awful shallow and rather narrow. If there's even a tiny bit of slop in the timing, perhaps the locking pawl might rebound off the adjacent cylinder surface rather than capturing the notch and centering it as it does on my Remington. The way the NMA is designed, the locking pawl has a square base and just a hint of a chisel point, so if the cylinder is a degree or two lead or lag, the point will capture the notch and center it as the pawl presses home. The Starr's system looks frustrating, like a fine thread bolt and nut with no starting chamfer on either one and a propensity for cross threading. Y'all have fun now, hear?



Hello XBe02Drvr,
That grip is about the diameter of a D battery and very close to round. It doesn't point very well at all and without a flare at the bottom, it takes some conscious effort to hold onto it.
Cylinder locking notches are actually fairly deep and the bolt is heavily spring loaded. Note the shiny mark by one notch. That is how hard the bolt is being pushed.
The "Failure to carry up" on all chambers is a pretty good indication that the hand is a bit too short. I don't know if the alignment of the chambers is good or not if the bolt is engaged but if it is NOT engaged, it is certainly not in alignment.
When it does go into a notch, there is a very audible click. The notches and bolt are both V-shaped so there is some centering.



GrauGeist said:


> I was encouraged (long story) to shoot our family's 100 year old .41 Colt revolver at the range one time, ages ago.
> So I stepped up, glasses on, hearing gear on, checked downrange and to the left and right. Took a breath, exhaled slowly and pulled the trigger.
> A cloud of smoke bellowed out of the barrel and to each side of the revolver and people went flying for cover to either side of my dock.
> I nailed the target dead on, I also peppered folks to either side with lead shear.
> ...



Hello GrauGeist,
Does that mean that your family voted you as the most expendable??? 
Spitting out the cylinder gap is pretty normal even with a modern revolver.
A fellow at the range was getting a bit too close when watching me shoot. I told him it was not safe to be where he was. To illustrate, I took a piece of paper, folded it and put it over the top of my revolver before firing a round. The gas and debris from the cylinder gap just about cut the piece of paper in half. That was enough explanation for him.

The cylinder gap is at pretty much the highest pressure point in the barrel. The gas is such that with high pressure round, it will often cut a groove in the top strap and erode away the steel of the barrel at the forcing cone. From my own experience, Stainless Steel seems to be much more resistant to this erosion and gas cutting than Chrome-Moly. For some odd reason, the gas cutting does not seem to erode the cylinder at the gap.

- Ivan.

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## XBe02Drvr (Sep 11, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> The notches and bolt are both V-shaped so there is some centering.





Ivan1GFP said:


> Cylinder locking notches are actually fairly deep and the bolt is heavily spring loaded. Note the shiny mark by one notch. That is how hard the bolt is being pushed.
> The "Failure to carry up" on all chambers is a pretty good indication that the hand is a bit too short.


Do you suppose the hand's vee tip has been blunted by repeated hard jamming into the cylinder surface adjacent to those rather narrow notches? Perhaps wear or sloppy machining on the rotator pawls or notches isn't rotating the cylinder with sufficient precision for the locking hand to consistently find the locking notch. Just a thought.


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## Ivan1GFP (Sep 11, 2021)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Do you suppose the hand's vee tip has been blunted by repeated hard jamming into the cylinder surface adjacent to those rather narrow notches? Perhaps wear or sloppy machining on the rotator pawls or notches isn't rotating the cylinder with sufficient precision for the locking hand to consistently find the locking notch. Just a thought.


Hello XBe02Drvr,
I don't think there are any wear issues at this point other than some marking on the cylinder from rotating against the bolt.
There were no marks on the cylinder when I cut the zip tie and I did the timing check before I had cycled through all chambers of the cylinder 3 times. I have now done 3 timing checks and the results vary but I still don't believe I have rotated the cylinder more than 20 times in all.
The hand simply isn't turning the cylinder far enough for the bolt to reach its locking notch. It never has skipped past a notch thus far.
There may be other reasons why the revolver is "failing to carry up", but when this is happening on all chambers, most likely culprit is a hand that is too short or otherwise not working properly.
This is not the first time I have come across a timing problem. Diagnosing a single action revolver is a whole lot easier than doing a double action one. There are a whole lot fewer parts that need to interact properly.

Slamming the bolt into its locking notch and wearing it out in that manner is why "Fanning" a revolver is so bad for it. Considering how thin some of the pieces are, I don't imagine the Starr would hold up well to that treatment but that is not how I treat these guns.
If a prior owner had done this a lot, then there might be enough wear for the bolt to miss its locking notch.

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (Sep 12, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> The cylinder gap is at pretty much the highest pressure point in the barrel. The gas is such that with high pressure round, it will often cut a groove in the top strap and erode away the steel of the barrel at the forcing cone. From my own experience, Stainless Steel seems to be much more resistant to this erosion and gas cutting than Chrome-Moly. For some odd reason, the gas cutting does not seem to erode the cylinder at the gap.



Here are a couple close up photographs of a nearly new .357 Magnum forcing cone and one that has had about 8000 full power rounds through it. Part of the colour is due to the more worn gun being blued rather than stainless but it is pretty obvious that the flat area at the end of the barrel is now much narrower because of metal that is burned away and there is no longer visible machining marks in the actual forcing cone. The gun is still quite reliable and accurate and should hold up for many more thousands of rounds despite the obvious wear.

- Ivan.

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## Ivan1GFP (Sep 24, 2021)

This is probably my favourite Rifle. I have mentioned it on this thread a few times before.
I have probably spent more time messing with it, tuning it, and doing load development for it than for any other gun.

A few years back after a bit of load development, I started noticing that it was shooting a lot of very small groups. Some of them were one hole groups at 100 yards which surprised me. I decided to measure the group sizes to see what the average size was.... 5/8 inch for 5 shots which was a bit bigger than I was expecting. When two 5 shot targets were overlayed, the average was 3/4 inch which is pretty respectable but probably no better than a typical service rifle entered at Camp Perry.
Maybe it would do better with a better driver because when I am shooting it, I can see my heartbeat through the scope because of the need for very heavy sling tension.
Scope is a 6.5-20 x Leupold Vari-X III EFR Target model on a B-Square mount.
As you can see from the Op Rod track, this gun has seen a lot of use. It probably has at least 1500 rounds through it since I rebarreled it. I still think it is pretty though.

- Ivan.

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## javlin (Sep 25, 2021)

I have one myself Ivan mine is a standard though when new could pull down 1 1/5" groups @100yds open sights now it's more like 2" groups could be the shooter getting older or the 4K+ rds she has seen.I have been thinking of getting it re-barreled just no real gunsmiths in the area to do the re-barrel.


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## Ivan1GFP (Sep 25, 2021)

javlin said:


> I have one myself Ivan mine is a standard though when new could pull down 1 1/5" groups @100yds open sights now it's more like 2" groups could be the shooter getting older or the 4K+ rds she has seen.I have been thinking of getting it re-barreled just no real gunsmiths in the area to do the re-barrel.


Hello Javlin,
I believe you have posted photographs of your gun before. If it is doing so well without any accuracy work, then that is a pretty good sign that there isn't anything significant that is out of place. If you believe it is a vision issue that is a limitation, then hang a high power telescope on it. Just watch out if you use one with target knobs that you protect the Windage knob from ejected shell casings. There are several layers of bicycle inner tube on the Windage cap on mine.
If I remember right, you had a bipod on your about where the front sling swivel was. That is generally a bad idea with these guns unless you have the stock entirely free floated which causes another set of problems. What the upward pressure at that point does is affect the consistency of the stock tension on the front band which dampens the vibrations at the gas cylinder.

As for rebarreling, that CAN be done at home with the proper tools (not cheap) and some careful work. I installed and finish reamed the chamber on this gun. It started life as a "National Match" gun, but the only things of that original gun that I haven't reworked are the unitized front band to gas cylinder, reamed flash suppressor, 1/2 MOA hooded rear sight and tuned trigger. Everything else has been reworked by me. Guide is AMTU and USMC manuals.

EDIT:
I really need to qualify that statement about rebarreling at home being not that difficult.
IFF your receiver and barrel have thread timing and dimensions identical to the GI specifications, then this is a pretty easy job. If the receiver or barrel thread timing are different in some way, you will need the use of a lathe AND it MAY cause other parts not to fit properly. Note that everything at the gas cylinder and back must be a certain spacing or you may need custom sized parts for the system to operate properly. If this is the case, you have about the biggest can of worms imaginable.

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (Sep 30, 2021)

Shortround6 said:


> .....
> I have left out a few.
> 
> The .45 ACP
> ...



Hello Shortround6,
I was doing a bit of reading to figure out whether or not my .45 Colt revolver was properly dimensioned and came across an interesting article about SAAMI specifications. SAAMI originated in 1913. SAAMI changed the specification for .45 Colt to .451 / .452 in 1951. Before that, .45 Colt typically used .454 inch bullets.
So I wasn't imagining things.
Now I just have to figure a good way to measure the cylinder throats on this gun because the reputation is that the majority of them need reamed to a larger size.
Been doing a LOT of work on revolvers lately.

- Ivan.


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## javlin (Sep 30, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> If I remember right, you had a bipod on your about where the front sling swivel was. That is generally a bad idea with these guns unless you have the stock entirely free floated which causes another set of problems.



I did but the front band was lets say a floater the rifle shoots better in the orginal stock as opposed to the Boyd's stock front band was just to tight I even hacked at it I did get it to shoot better but not like the original stock.You interested in a Boyd's stock 😁


Ivan1GFP said:


> If you believe it is a vision issue that is a limitation, then hang a high power telescope on it.



The simplest solution is usually the correct! Right? what's that Ocmans Razor?I do have the Springfield Mount and a decent scope if I can punch the paper good with that then it's my skills have wavered some my eyesight is still pretty good at 60 I still do not need glasses except for reading.I may try that this W/E if the weather holds out


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## Shortround6 (Sep 30, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello Shortround6,
> I was doing a bit of reading to figure out whether or not my .45 Colt revolver was properly dimensioned and came across an interesting article about SAAMI specifications. SAAMI originated in 1913. SAAMI changed the specification for .45 Colt to .451 / .452 in 1951. Before that, .45 Colt typically used .454 inch bullets.
> So I wasn't imagining things.
> Now I just have to figure a good way to measure the cylinder throats on this gun because the reputation is that the majority of them need reamed to a larger size.
> ...


I remember ( I think  ) reading that Elmer Keith changed from the .45 Colt to the .44 special because there was less variation in the throats of the revolvers chambered in .44 special which helped eliminate one variable when developing heavy handloads (.44 magnum).


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## Ivan1GFP (Sep 30, 2021)

Shortround6 said:


> I remember ( I think  ) reading that Elmer Keith changed from the .45 Colt to the .44 special because there was less variation in the throats of the revolvers chambered in .44 special which helped eliminate one variable when developing heavy handloads (.44 magnum).


I wasn't looking for it specifically. I was just curious if others were having the same kinds of problems I have encountered with certain guns and came across a forum discussion.
It seems that one method of manufacturing the cylinder is to drill and ream three chambers all at once, rotate the cylinder blank one space and ream the other three. With the difference in wear condition of reamers being used, there is a pretty good possibility that there are three pairs of diameters for the chamber throats. With the cost of reamers and their very short life span, they may get used to the point where the holes are a bit undersized.
This undersized throat (full chamber in BP Revolvers) is the situation I was describing earlier.
Reloading gets really inreresting if the chamber throats in a cylinder don't match!

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 2, 2021)

javlin said:


> I did but the front band was lets say a floater the rifle shoots better in the orginal stock as opposed to the Boyd's stock front band was just to tight I even hacked at it I did get it to shoot better but not like the original stock.You interested in a Boyd's stock 😁


Hello Javlin,
Sorry for not responding sooner, but I didn't see your post until this morning.
I had not been viewing this forum much in the last few days because I have been reworking the two guns whose forcing cones were photographed. I am now at the stage at which I have done as much as I can with the parts on order that have arrived.

I actually already have a Boyds stock for another gun. The problem with their stock is more on the back end than the front: The Buttplate doesn't fit particularly well.
The typical solution for the lack of tension on the Stock Ferrule to Front Band is to Glass Bed the Receiver with a fair amount of space AWAY from the Stock (held by a fixture). The US Army Marksmanship Training Unit manual is not that hard to find and the illustrations are a lot better than my written description. Just make sure it is centered when the epoxy is setting.
Before you do the Glass Bedding if that is your choice, you might want to Glass Bed the Stock Ferrule to the Stock so it does not shift. Make sure it is straight.
After the Glass Bedding, the Ferrule and Stock can be hollowed out quite a bit so nothing contacts the Front Band except at the bottom. That area also needs to be lubricated slightly for best results.
Permanently fixing the Front Band to the Gas Cylinder is what the AMTU accuracy specs calls for but I am not convinced that required unless you are going for a full accuracy build. It is not an easy job unless you can do some tack welding, brazing or are willing to anneal the Gas Cylinder so you can tap it.
Keep in mind that a lot of the materials for Glass Bedding are a LOT better than when the AMTU manual was written.



javlin said:


> The simplest solution is usually the correct! Right? what's that Ocmans Razor?I do have the Springfield Mount and a decent scope if I can punch the paper good with that then it's my skills have wavered some my eyesight is still pretty good at 60 I still do not need glasses except for reading.I may try that this W/E if the weather holds out



The issue that I have with some of the scope mounts is that they require that the Clip Guide be removed and replaced with a part that has a tapped hole for a second screw. I like my gun looking original when the scope and mount are not installed.
S&K made a mount that I used for many years that used the little slots around the tapped hole in the left side of the receiver for locating the mount. The whole mount was aluminum and the tabs that fit into the slots in the receiver looked quite abused after a bit of use. The mount looked pretty similar in construction to the military ART mount but without the ranging cam.
This mount was the reason I got rid of a rifle. Its receiver had the slots mis-located and would not accept that mount.
This isn't a problem for a service rifle shooter using only iron sights but I need a good scope to be able to see the accuracy of the rifle.
I switched to the B-Square mount when it became available because it allowed me to set elevation in the mount. I put in enough elevation so that there is about 60 MOA of internal adjustment for increasing elevation left in the scope when it is sighted in at 100 yards. I have actually tested whether this works by hanging an extra high target and shooting a round, increasing elevation 10 MOA and doing this until the scope stopped responding. This scope would actually do about 65 MOA. It is stable enough that I was able to shoot a 5 shot group well under 1 MOA while removing the mount from the rifle between each shot.
There is a lot more I can tell you from messing with this gun over about 20 years.

- Ivan.

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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 8, 2021)

I have seen quite a few 1911 type pistols here over the years.
Recently I have been doing a little troubleshooting and reading through 1911 forums on various subjects.
It seems like many people have problems with these pistols long after the break-in period of several hundred rounds.
This seems to match up with my own experience and what I have seen at various ranges with shooters who have had gun malfunctions.

Do we have a significant number of 1911 fans here?
If so, I would like to take an informal survey:
How many production 1911 pistols here have worked properly as they came from the factory without needing some kind of tuning?
Please do not include guns from the custom shops such as Wilson, Nighthawk, and others where guns may be hand fitted.
Malfunctions for the first 50-200 rounds are expected as part of the break-in process as the parts of the pistol "wear in", but what about after that?

How many pistols have needed some additional tuning?
How many factory magazines were simply unreliable? Please ignore those $5 POS Gun Show specials.
How many folks here have chosen to make additional "cosmetic" or ease of handling fixes?
How about accuracy tuning?
Everyone is building their own version today and it seems that a large percentage seem to have some kind of issue as they come from the factory.

I am curious because the reputation of the M1911 / M1911A1 is that of a very reliable combat handgun and obviously the US Government never bothered to tune individual magazines before issuing them in quantity during wartime.

- Ivan.


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## javlin (Oct 9, 2021)

Springfield 1945 WWII configuration 5th round with mags does not always eject gets stuck in the ejection chute.I have used a mag from a relatives gun do not know the manufacture but does not jam on that one.The gun otherwise works great but I bought the gun with supposedly about 100rds run through it some years back from the LGS at a discount now maybe 500rds.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 10, 2021)

Hello Javlin,
This is a copy of a WW2 configuration US military 1911A1 by Springfield Armory Inc., right?
Whose magazine are you using with the gun? It sounds like the markings on the magazine may not be obvious and since it also sounds like the gun was used (minimally) when you bought it, it very well may not be the factory Springfield Inc. magazine.

At only 100 rounds through the gun, I would not be terribly surprised if there were intermittent jams of various kinds.
Most folks suggest 500 rounds for break in though I believe if you already have reliable function at 200, that is plenty.
The last gun I bought was sold to be as used but was malfunctioning pretty regularly for about the first 75 rounds or so.
After that, it hasn't burped since which suggests to me that it was never fired by the prior owner(s).
Accuracy was lousy, but reliability was excellent.
At 500 rounds, your gun should be done with break in issues. if it is still malfunctioning, there is something not right about the combination of gun and magazine.

The most reliable magazines I have used are the ones by Metalform and the US Government Issue ones.
The USGI magazines aren't as pretty as commercial: They are welded at the front of the tube and the discolouration from heat is very visible but they are not expensive when you can find them.
Metalform magazines also are not expensive: I just bought a pair of stainless ones about two weeks ago from CDNN off eBay for less than $13 each and that included tax and shipping.

- Ivan.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 10, 2021)

javlin said:


> Springfield 1945 WWII configuration 5th round with mags does not always eject gets stuck in the ejection chute.I have used a mag from a relatives gun do not know the manufacture but does not jam on that one.The gun otherwise works great but I bought the gun with supposedly about 100rds run through it some years back from the LGS at a discount now maybe 500rds.


I had a 1919 vintage 1911 that was a "hand me down" complete with some fairly old magazines.
Over time, the magazines' springs had become "soft" and weren't pushing the last few cartridges far enough into the receiver, so they'd hang up.
The fix was revealed to me by my step-dad (Korea vet, USMC) by sliding the magazine's baseplate open and removing the spring. Then grasping both ends, pull it apart gently several inches beyond it's relaxed state and then reinstall it.
The spring now has more tension against the ammunition and should solve the poor feed problem with the last few rounds.
He also mentioned that the springs tend to get "soft" when the magaizines are kept loaded for extended periods of time, he encountered this in Korea when they were given bandoliers of loaded .45 magazines that were WWII vintage.

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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 10, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> I had a 1919 vintage 1911 that was a "hand me down" complete with some fairly old magazines.
> Over time, the magazines' springs had become "soft" and weren't pushing the last few cartridges far enough into the receiver, so they'd hang up.
> The fix was revealed to me by my step-dad (Korea vet, USMC) by sliding the magazine's baseplate open and removing the spring. Then grasping both ends, pull it apart gently several inches beyond it's relaxed state and then reinstall it.
> The spring now has more tension against the ammunition and should solve the poor feed problem with the last few rounds.
> He also mentioned that the springs tend to get "soft" when the magaizines are kept loaded for extended periods of time, he encountered this in Korea when they were given bandoliers of loaded .45 magazines that were WWII vintage.


Hello GrauGeist,
I hope you hung on to that old M1911 (not M1911A1 which didn't exist yet). Today it would be worth some serious money though I don't expect something like that would ever get sold.
Just be careful with that old gun. They were not nearly as durable as later M1911A1. As I understand it, the M1911 guns were not even heat treated which was a feature added in production changes for M1911A1. Remember Browning's amazement when the test gun survived the 6000 round test without a breakage. At the time, no other competitor's gun would survive that long.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the problem, but what you are describing is a Failure to Feed as opposed to what I thought Javlin was describing which was a Failure to Eject a spent case clear of the Ejection Port.....
I saw a couple YouTube videos where the narrator was describing one thing when the video showed the basic problem to be clearly another.

- Ivan.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 10, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello GrauGeist,
> I hope you hung on to that old M1911 (not M1911A1 which didn't exist yet). Today it would be worth some serious money though I don't expect something like that would ever get sold.
> Just be careful with that old gun. They were not nearly as durable as later M1911A1. As I understand it, the M1911 guns were not even heat treated which was a feature added in production changes for M1911A1. Remember Browning's amazement when the test gun survived the 6000 round test without a breakage. At the time, no other competitor's gun would survive that long.
> 
> ...


I still have it, but I haven't fired it in over 30 years. It was worn out from a long military career and no longer safe to shoot - case in point, the last time I had it at the range, it started cycling rounds as long as the trigger was held. The Slide also had an enormous amount of play, both front to back and side to side.

I think I may have misunderstood Kevin's post. My original impression was the last few rounds in the magazine weren't loading properly, my bad.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 11, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> I still have it, but I haven't fired it in over 30 years. It was worn out from a long military career and no longer safe to shoot - case in point, the last time I had it at the range, it started cycling rounds as long as the trigger was held. The Slide also had an enormous amount of play, both front to back and side to side.
> 
> I think I may have misunderstood Kevin's post. My original impression was the last few rounds in the magazine weren't loading properly, my bad.


Hello GrauGeist,
It could be me that misinterpreted the issue Javlin was having. Without a visual, we really don't know for sure.
I sent him a PM with an easy check for Extractor Tension if it really is a "Stovepipe" jam or a failure to toss the spent case out the ejection port.
Between the two of us, we have the magazine issue pretty well covered, so until we know more that is about as far as it goes.

As for the old veteran M1911, It has been through several wars and is over a Century old. Not bad!
As for firing repeatedly without interruption, I can't say I have ever encountered that one before but if I had to look for a problem, I would first look for Hammer to Sear engagement. I am guessing that when the Slide goes into battery, it is knocking a worn Hammer / Sear out of engagement and firing the gun. There are a few other checks to see what is actually not working.
Maybe it is best to leave the old veteran in peace. I like seeing guns functional, but there isn't a point in running it hard until something fails catastrophically.
Seems like you have already decided to retire it. If so, one way to make it inert without permanently damaging anything is to buy an extra firing pin (fairy cheap) and cut off the tip so it can't fire a live round and install it in place of the original. You then know it can't accidentally be fired but the original firing pin can be put back in within a couple minutes if that is your intention.

- Ivan.


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## javlin (Oct 11, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> I think I may have misunderstood Kevin's post. My original impression was the last few rounds in the magazine weren't loading properly, my bad.


Just Rd5 stove pipes once clear 6/7 load but with a higher quality mag(brother-in-laws) no issues then at other times though few all seven roll out just fine.I am not a big hand gun shooter bought just to have and it fit the the WWII theme of the collection even though not original.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 11, 2021)

javlin said:


> Just Rd5 stove pipes once clear 6/7 load but with a higher quality mag(brother-in-laws) no issues then at other times though few all seven roll out just fine.I am not a big hand gun shooter bought just to have and it fit the the WWII theme of the collection even though not original.



Hello Javlin,
If the round has chambered and fired, then the magazine has basically done the job it was intended to do.
If the spent case doesn't clear the gun and results in a stovepipe, it basically means that the Extractor lost control of the case before it could be ejected out of the gun. There are a number of potential causes but the most likely is a lack of Extractor Tension.
The easiest way to check is as I described via PM which is to take a loaded round (you need the weight of the bullet) and slide it under the Extractor and against the Breech Face on the Slide after you have removed the Frame and Barrel. It should be held so it does not fall out no matter which direction you rotate or tilt the slide. If the round tilts and wobbles a bit, that is fine but it should not fall out.

The problem with a lot of guns is that the tuning of the Extractor is often not done correctly and the bending to fit and create proper tension is done AFTER the part has been heat treated. As such, sometimes the tension isn't retained over time and may need bent again. Personally, I have not run into this situation of needing to adjust the Extractor multiple times. The Extractor should be tempered as a spring and I personally don't like the idea of Metal Injection Moulded parts in this application because of the very high stress.

Now the Magazine CAN have an effect by having the follower ride a bit high or presenting the next round so that it collides with the spent case as it is being extracted from the chamber and before it has hit the Ejector and causes the case to come loose from Extractor.
It still boils down to an Extractor problem in that case.
In fact, if your magazine is presenting rounds a touch high, It probably feeds more reliably than one that does not. Have you ever had an actual Failure to Feed with this particular magazine? I suspect not.

The Extractor / Ejector is one of the weak points in the M1911 type guns. (They have a bunch weak points.)
A slightly lengthened Ejector might also help a bit but just hides the basic problem. Usually that is a pretty good solution if the gun is kicking spent cases straight up and back so they hit the shooter in the face. Beware of Ejectors that are too long because then they make it very difficult to clear a loaded round. Some folks machine away part of the right side of the slide to create clearance but I don't like that idea because it isn't necessary to have a super long Ejector for good reliable functioning.
It is all a balancing act....

I originally started this discussion because I believe I have finally come across a 1911 that is distinctly unreliable and needing constant work and was wondering if others here had encountered the same thing.

- Ivan.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 11, 2021)

In regards to current 1911s, I have a Rock Island 1911A-1 FS .45, and it's a beaut (seen on post #1,388, upthread).
Same heft as a Colt, with a factory "smithed" trigger and a nice beavertail that prevents "snakebite" that a traditional Colt can inflict.
It generally comes with an 8 round mag. but will accept a standard Colt (or clone) mag.
I've had it since new (about 6 years) and have yet to experience feed issues, jams or ejection problems - this being with a wide range of ammunition: military ball, hollowpoints, sport/target, etc.
All new ammo, though, no reloads.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 12, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> In regards to current 1911s, I have a Rock Island 1911A-1 FS .45, and it's a beaut (seen on post #1,388, upthread).
> Same heft as a Colt, with a factory "smithed" trigger and a nice beavertail that prevents "snakebite" that a traditional Colt can inflict.
> It generally comes with an 8 round mag. but will accept a standard Colt (or clone) mag.
> I've had it since new (about 6 years) and have yet to experience feed issues, jams or ejection problems - this being with a wide range of ammunition: military ball, hollowpoints, sport/target, etc.
> All new ammo, though, no reloads.


Hello GrauGeist,
Looks pretty!
From the possibilities you had in mind between Springfield Inc., Kimber, and Rock Island, it seems like you made the best choice.
The gun that I mentioned earlier that seems to have problems on a regular basis is actually a Kimber and it seems from the forums that it is not unusual in that respect except that the problems I have encountered have mostly been just annoying rather than really painful as some have described. The Kimber II series seems to be worse than the earlier guns from a QC and reliability standpoint.

By the way, not every Spur Hammer and Grip Safety does the nibble the hand thing.
The Stainless Colt whose photographs I posted earlier is one that gave me bruises on the web of my hand when I first got it.
After getting annoyed with this for a year or two, I finally decided to remove about 1/16 inch from the back of the Hammer Spur and it doesn't do that nibble thing any more. It is stainless, so the modification required no refinishing.
I do have Beavertail Grip Safeties but generally don't like them nor do I like Bumper Pads on the base of the Magazine because they make an already large pistol even larger.
I personally prefer guns that have good fit and finish but don't show a lot of bells and whistles on the outside. Different people have different aesthetic preferences of course. Those are just mine.

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 14, 2021)

Replaced a plastic Mainspring Housing on an old Colt 1911 last night with a part by Ed Brown.
New part was a tight but drop-in fit. Took about an hour and I was working very slowly.
Tools required:
Aluminum Nail with the tip rounded off. Proper tool is a small Brass Punch which I do not have.
Small Hammer to drive the Nail / Punch
1/8 inch Pin Punch
1/16 inch Pin Punch
A small amount of light grease (I used Lubriplate).
Q-tips to clean and lubricate. (Used about 6.)

Only Field Stripping was necessary.
New Part is a bit shinier than the Plastic Part but the visual match to the rest of the gun is better and visually it appears to me to look very much like a factory Colt part but perhaps a bit more precisely made.

- Ivan.


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## soulezoo (Oct 18, 2021)

I have a couple of 1911's. One is one of the first Delta Elites (10mm) manufactured- SN 10xx. Had to get that to go with my Bren Ten. 
The other is a 70's Colt Commander in 9mm with the electroless nickel finish. Not fond of the commander, inaccurate as all get out.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 20, 2021)

Hello Soulezoo,
That sounds like pretty good representation. 
The Bren Ten sounds particularly interesting. I wanted one way way back, but the company did not hang around long enough and I was a bit wary about pre-orders.
The Colt 1911 whose photos I posted earlier was bought because I wanted a gun like the one I saw on Miami Vice (The Bren Ten). I didn't know much about either gun at the time. Eventually I did get a S&W 1006 because I didn't really trust the Delta Elite. I didn't think the old M1911 design would hold up to sustained full power 10 mm use while the testing of the S&W proved that it would survive.

How are the two 1911's for reliability? The Commander should not be that hard to tune for accuracy if you are so inclined. There are lots of aftermarket parts for it. I don't happen to own a Commander type yet but am thinking about it.

- Ivan.


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## soulezoo (Oct 22, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello Soulezoo,
> That sounds like pretty good representation.
> The Bren Ten sounds particularly interesting. I wanted one way way back, but the company did not hang around long enough and I was a bit wary about pre-orders.
> The Colt 1911 whose photos I posted earlier was bought because I wanted a gun like the one I saw on Miami Vice (The Bren Ten). I didn't know much about either gun at the time. Eventually I did get a S&W 1006 because I didn't really trust the Delta Elite. I didn't think the old M1911 design would hold up to sustained full power 10 mm use while the testing of the S&W proved that it would survive.
> ...


The Bren Ten I have was one of the first 100 made and shipped. It's a safe queen now of course, but was really feature forward for the era. The Delta Elite has some Wilson Combat work to it and has been a fine shooter. Other than the initial full power Norma loads, it sees mostly average power 10mm loads. It's an unsupported chamber, so something like Buffalo Bore loads will bulge the case and therefore unsafe. I use the Wilson buffer pads to mitigate slide to stop wear/damage. I really don't shoot it much, if at all any longer, but it is a fine shooter. It has been very reliable as well. The Commander, not as much. I no longer shoot it at all.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 25, 2021)

soulezoo said:


> The Bren Ten I have was one of the first 100 made and shipped. It's a safe queen now of course, but was really feature forward for the era. The Delta Elite has some Wilson Combat work to it and has been a fine shooter. Other than the initial full power Norma loads, it sees mostly average power 10mm loads. It's an unsupported chamber, so something like Buffalo Bore loads will bulge the case and therefore unsafe. I use the Wilson buffer pads to mitigate slide to stop wear/damage. I really don't shoot it much, if at all any longer, but it is a fine shooter. It has been very reliable as well. The Commander, not as much. I no longer shoot it at all.



Hello soulezoo,
Safe Queen status sounds right for the Bren Ten. There are plenty of other 10 mm guns out there today that aren't nearly as valuable and that you can actually find parts for if anything should break.
It is nice to know that my call on the Delta Elite was a good one. If one of your bulged cases should let go, life could get really ugly. I had that issue with a 1911 that I bought used that had a factory barrel that had been throated too much. The 1911 has a few weak points and that is one of them.

I ran a few full power loads when I first got the 1006 but didn't see the point. It wasn't terrible to shoot, but it was much easier to just run reloads that were just above the factory standard for .40 S&W and not beat up the gun so much. Although the testing proved the model would survive 10,000 rounds, it had a few small parts failures over that test and I don't consider 10,000 rounds a long enough life span.
Sounds like your Delta Elite should survive the same kind of treatment.

Regarding the Commander, there is probably no reason it can't be tuned to be reliable and accurate. It isn't that different from a full sized Government Model. Sounds like for this informal poll, you have one very reliable and one not so reliable. How was the Delta Elite before it had the visit to Wilson?

- Ivan.


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## soulezoo (Oct 25, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello soulezoo,
> Safe Queen status sounds right for the Bren Ten. There are plenty of other 10 mm guns out there today that aren't nearly as valuable and that you can actually find parts for if anything should break.
> It is nice to know that my call on the Delta Elite was a good one. If one of your bulged cases should let go, life could get really ugly. I had that issue with a 1911 that I bought used that had a factory barrel that had been throated too much. The 1911 has a few weak points and that is one of them.
> 
> ...


The Delta was great before the Wilson upgrades. I did so to enhance accuracy and longevity. Captured recoil spring a little heavier than normal (22 lbs IIRC), new trigger/trigger work, the buffer pads, barrel bushing. I wanted to get a BarSto barrel or Wilson barrel to get the supported chamber, but just never did. Not worried about the Commander, I have a half dozen other 9mm's to shoot. A West German Sig P226 is by far the best of the lot.


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## Mainly28s (Oct 25, 2021)

Nothing exciting.
I gave up mine 22 years ago when I moved to the UK, but I owned a CZ-75B 9mm before.

My father had a Lee-Enfield Mk 4 and a Mauser 98k, a Walther PPK and a Luger with matching serials.

I did, however, carry an R-5 (copy of a Galil) for two years, and had the opportunity to fire a Galil, an FN, a Bren, FN-MAG, Vickers .303, MP-40, AK-47 and AK-74, PPSh-41, RPK, Sten, RPG-7 and a large assortment of handguns.

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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 27, 2021)

Hello soulezoo,
I don't think replacing the Delta Elite's barrel with a Wilson Combat or even a Bar-Sto barrel would have done much for chamber support unless you also had the frame cut and a ramped barrel fitted. I am not convinced that would help things VERY much either.
The new fitted barrel and bushing would probably have improved accuracy but from what I have heard, Colt barrels are actually very good.
The missing part is in their factory assembly which doesn't include custom fitting.

In my opinion, the two piece feed ramp and the required angles there are one of the three major faults in the M1911 design

Last night I finally finished fitting a new Ed Brown mainspring housing to a 1911. The first one was a drop in fit. This one was so far off in so many dimensions that I was tempted to give up many many times. I had to take off a lot of metal very slowly to keep the surfaces flat.

- Ivan.

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## soulezoo (Oct 27, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello soulezoo,
> I don't think replacing the Delta Elite's barrel with a Wilson Combat or even a Bar-Sto barrel would have done much for chamber support unless you also had the frame cut and a ramped barrel fitted. I am not convinced that would help things VERY much either.
> The new fitted barrel and bushing would probably have improved accuracy but from what I have heard, Colt barrels are actually very good.
> The missing part is in their factory assembly which doesn't include custom fitting.
> ...


Well, I fortunately have a KKM and Stormlake barrel for my Glock 20/40. So, I can run some pretty hot rounds. They can be violent without the compensator!


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 30, 2021)

Hello Soulezoo,
I personally have never been a big fan of Glocks. I prefer a gun with a second (not on the trigger) safety mechanism.
From a functioning standpoint, they are pretty well made and generally pretty accurate and a friend of mine has tried for years to convince me to get one. Instead, I went with the Springfield XD which is the same basic idea but has a grip safety. It isn't quite as accurate (yet) as the Glocks I have fired but I also haven't fired it much.
By the way, for the full power 10 mm ammunition, do you load your own or buy it new? I mostly loaded my own which is how I could get ammunition slightly hotter than .40 S&W but not quite at full power 10 mm. I loaded it so frequently at one point that I still have a Dillon 550 tool head with powder measure set up for the caliber.

Regarding your 1911s. Here is a check that might be quite revealing: (The infamous Popsicle Stick Test)
measure the distance between the top of the slide and the barrel at the front of the ejection port when everything is in battery.
Now put a popsicle stick between the back end of the chamber at the barrel hood and the breech face and do the same thing.
I actually use tongue depressor sized craft sticks.
The difference is your lug engagement.

- Ivan.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 30, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello Soulezoo,
> I personally have never been a big fan of Glocks. I prefer a gun with a second (not on the trigger) safety mechanism.
> From a functioning standpoint, they are pretty well made and generally pretty accurate and a friend of mine has tried for years to convince me to get one. Instead, I went with the Springfield XD which is the same basic idea but has a grip safety. It isn't quite as accurate (yet) as the Glocks I have fired but I also haven't fired it much.
> By the way, for the full power 10 mm ammunition, do you load your own or buy it new? I mostly loaded my own which is how I could get ammunition slightly hotter than .40 S&W but not quite at full power 10 mm. I loaded it so frequently at one point that I still have a Dillon 550 tool head with powder measure set up for the caliber.
> ...



I have a customized Springfield XD45. I really enjoy it. It has a very smooth action. Once I got used to the light trigger pull it is very accurate too.

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## GrauGeist (Oct 30, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> I prefer a gun with a second (not on the trigger) safety mechanism.


My S&W 39-2 9mm actually has three.
Being double-action, it can be "half cocked".
The full safety is found on the left side of the body, locking the slide (easy access with the thumb) and surprisingly, the third involves the magazine.
If the magazine is not fully in place and locked, the trigger group is inactive.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 31, 2021)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I have a customized Springfield XD45. I really enjoy it. It has a very smooth action. Once I got used to the light trigger pull it is very accurate too.


Hello DerAdlerIstGelandet,

Mine is a little compact 9 mm. I believe it is a XD/M. I don't remember exactly because I don't mess with it much.
It came as a package with a little clamp on flashlight. I have only shot it a few times and I probably was getting groups in the 3-4 inch range but I am sure I wasn't using particularly good ammunition either, so it really wasn't a completely fair test. I have had other guns shoot pretty well even with the cheap ammunition.
9 mm is one of those calibers I have not spent much time to refine a load. Ammunition was always so cheap there really wasn't that much of a point and the FMJ bullets without an obvious parallel section are not the easiest to seat straight. I recently figured out a few things when making up some dummy rounds with .45 cal 230 grain FMJ

For features, The XD is pretty much how I believe the Glock should have been designed: with a grip safety.

How do you customize a gun like this???

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 31, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> My S&W 39-2 9mm actually has three.
> Being double-action, it can be "half cocked".
> The full safety is found on the left side of the body, locking the slide (easy access with the thumb) and surprisingly, the third involves the magazine.
> If the magazine is not fully in place and locked, the trigger group is inactive.


Hello GrauGeist,
The S&W Model 39 is one of my favourite 9 mm pistols at least from a handling standpoint. It just seems to point very naturally.
A friend of mine first showed me one and let me shoot it a bit over 30 years ago. The Model 639 is one of those pistols I would buy without much thinking if one came along. The unlocking wedges on the aluminum frame just don't seem sturdy enough. The Model 659 didn't retain the same nice handling and is quite heavy.
The magazine safety on the S&W pistols is one I rather like. It helps rather than hinders magazine ejection unlike on the Browning Hi-Power.
I am wondering a hit how the half cock notch can be considered an additional safety on the S&W 39....

- Ivan.

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## GrauGeist (Oct 31, 2021)

If you recall the old adage "don't go off half cocked" then you've heard advice from the olden days when double-action was a new "thing".
Most DAs in half-cock will lock the trigger group, requiring the operator to pull the hammer into the full-cock position.
This could have caused considerable stress in a street fight, of course, because they've drawn their pistol but nothing happens when the try and pull the trigger - of course, the varmint down the street is tossing lead their way and their day is getting worse by the minute (multiply by two if this happens on a Monday).

On the 39-2, the same applies. Half-cock locks the trigger group until the hammer is pulled completely back into the full-cocked position.
It might not be considered a full safety feature in some regards, but in the half-cock position, the trigger is fully inactive.

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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 31, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello DerAdlerIstGelandet,
> 
> Mine is a little compact 9 mm. I believe it is a XD/M. I don't remember exactly because I don't mess with it much.
> It came as a package with a little clamp on flashlight. I have only shot it a few times and I probably was getting groups in the 3-4 inch range but I am sure I wasn't using particularly good ammunition either, so it really wasn't a completely fair test. I have had other guns shoot pretty well even with the cheap ammunition.
> ...



The trigger was modified for extra light pull, and the grip was customized. I really like the gun. It has a rail to add a flashlight as well. It is the full size XD in .45.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 31, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> My S&W 39-2 9mm actually has three.
> Being double-action, it can be "half cocked".
> The full safety is found on the left side of the body, locking the slide (easy access with the thumb) and surprisingly, the third involves the magazine.
> If the magazine is not fully in place and locked, the trigger group is inactive.



My Beretta 96A1 .40 S&W is the same.


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 31, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> If you recall the old adage "don't go off half cocked" then you've heard advice from the olden days when double-action was a new "thing".
> Most DAs in half-cock will lock the trigger group, requiring the operator to pull the hammer into the full-cock position.
> This could have caused considerable stress in a street fight, of course, because they've drawn their pistol but nothing happens when the try and pull the trigger - of course, the varmint down the street is tossing lead their way and their day is getting worse by the minute (multiply by two if this happens on a Monday).
> 
> ...


Hello GrauGeist,
I had always figured that applied to older single action guns that were not safe to carry with a hammer down on a loaded chamber.
I do know that is how it is SUPPOSED to work on a 1911 but some folks eliminate that feature because there is the slight chance the half cock notch has a slight chance of damaging the sear under some circumstances.
I had figured that a hammer down on a loaded chamber with a long trigger pull to fire was a reasonably safe thing as far as a chambered round can be considered safe. I will have to check out one of the S&W autos I own to see if they retained this feature in later models.

EDIT:
I just checked out my Model 39 and there is a notch between full hammer down and full cock but nothing else that I can detect and it does not lock up the trigger at all. The double action still works fine as it would with the hammer down. I went and checked out another S&W pistol and it behaves the same. How many stops are there from hammer down to full cock? I can only find one in both pistols.

- Ivan.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 31, 2021)

My S&W 39-2 has three positions on the hammer:
Full rest (hammer down) - in this position, the trigger has full travel, with no reaction, of course.
Half-cocked (middle position) - with the hammer in this position, the trigger will move back slightly but stops with no reaction to the hammer.
Full cocked (third position) - this of course has the hammer fully extended, waiting for the trigger's command and the trigger is fully functional and will discharge a round if depressed.

I could provide photos of the hammer positions *if* it were here and not locked in my safe, which is still in storage...


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## soulezoo (Nov 1, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello Soulezoo,
> I personally have never been a big fan of Glocks. I prefer a gun with a second (not on the trigger) safety mechanism.
> From a functioning standpoint, they are pretty well made and generally pretty accurate and a friend of mine has tried for years to convince me to get one. Instead, I went with the Springfield XD which is the same basic idea but has a grip safety. It isn't quite as accurate (yet) as the Glocks I have fired but I also haven't fired it much.
> By the way, for the full power 10 mm ammunition, do you load your own or buy it new? I mostly loaded my own which is how I could get ammunition slightly hotter than .40 S&W but not quite at full power 10 mm. I loaded it so frequently at one point that I still have a Dillon 550 tool head with powder measure set up for the caliber.
> ...


Howdy,
Not a big fan of Glocks either, but they do work. In 10mm, it's about the only decent large capacity firearm one can obtain in California. Otherwise, I would have others. I both load my own (on a Dillon 550 also) and buy new (for full power either Buffalo Bore or Double Tap). Mostly reload however for volume.

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## stug3 (Nov 1, 2021)

My S&W .38 Military & Police will be a century old next year.






Browning Hi-Power .40 S&W





I usually carry a Ruger LCR .38 in my pocket when out and about. I liked the LCR so much I got another one in .22LR. It has an 8 round cylinder. I also have a Charter Arms Police Undercover 6 shot .38.

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## ARTESH (Nov 1, 2021)

Firearms are great ... But they're too noisy ... I prefer more silent ones ... Like knife or sword, when I'm out.

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## SaparotRob (Nov 1, 2021)

I scream like a frightened child.

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## ARTESH (Nov 1, 2021)

SaparotRob said:


> I scream like a frightened child.


Living in streets proved that "Cold Weapons" are much more useful and handy in a fight rather than "Fire Arms". They are noisy, need ammo, should be cleaned time to time, and ... Above all, police would not ask why you carry a knife with yourself, but everyone would ask about weapon. Also cold arms are easier to hide, and you can "throw" them as well.

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## Ivan1GFP (Nov 2, 2021)

GrauGeist said:


> My S&W 39-2 has three positions on the hammer:
> Full rest (hammer down) - in this position, the trigger has full travel, with no reaction, of course.
> Half-cocked (middle position) - with the hammer in this position, the trigger will move back slightly but stops with no reaction to the hammer.
> Full cocked (third position) - this of course has the hammer fully extended, waiting for the trigger's command and the trigger is fully functional and will discharge a round if depressed.
> ...


Hello GrauGeist,
I checked out my remaining S&W pistol last night. It makes a click between full hammer down and hammer cocked, but the hammer if releases at the point of the click will go back to hammer down. It is the newest of the guns.



soulezoo said:


> Howdy,
> Not a big fan of Glocks either, but they do work. In 10mm, it's about the only decent large capacity firearm one can obtain in California. Otherwise, I would have others. I both load my own (on a Dillon 550 also) and buy new (for full power either Buffalo Bore or Double Tap). Mostly reload however for volume.



Hello Soulezoo,
Living in California does limit your choices a bit. Only time I ever was out there was about 25 years ago when our development and support team had a class at Hewlett Packard. Things were not quite as crazy back then.
You may be able to use a double stack .45 or 10 mm effectively, but something like that is just too big for me.
As I mentioned above, I was looking at my Model 1006 last night. It isn't quite as big as I remember it, but it is only a single stack and isn't nearly as ergonomic as a M1911. I haven't modified it much since I bought it. The only changes are the plastic grips are actually from a Model 4506 which help it point a bit better and the spring guide which was aluminum was replaced with a stainless steel part by Ed Brown.
It points a lot better with the 4506 rounded grips than with the 1006 straight grips.

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (Nov 7, 2021)

Hello stug3,

I seemed to remember I had something that was a pretty similar configuration to your revolver.
It is a Colt Police Positive .38 Special and in its configuration, they were produced from 1908 to 1923.
I decided to check on the production date and found out that it will also be a century old next year.
Pretty nice coincidence, huh?

This gun actually looks a lot better in person than it does in this photograph. I need to figure out how to use this new camera of mine. It isn't nearly as good as my last camera.

- Ivan.

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## ARTESH (Nov 7, 2021)

Beside big boys (sword, axe, mace), it's always good idea to have something more compact as well ...

... Beside scratching, you need penetration, too.

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## special ed (Nov 7, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello stug3,
> 
> I seemed to remember I had something that was a pretty similar configuration to your revolver.
> It is a Colt Police Positive .38 Special and in its configuration, they were produced from 1908 to 1923.
> ...


I see it has a lanyard ring at the grip. Is it marked from some P.D.?


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## Ivan1GFP (Nov 7, 2021)

special ed said:


> I see it has a lanyard ring at the grip. Is it marked from some P.D.?



Hello Special Ed,

The revolver doesn't have any department stamps that I can find.
Also, please note from the photograph that there are grooves in the trigger and also the front of the grip frame.
There are also grooves in the back of the grip frame. I don't believe those were from the factory and were a personal touch much like homemade checkering. For that reason, I don't think the gun has a lot of original value even though the grooves are fairly well done.
I can't imagine that kind of thing would be allowed on department issue property.

The Police Positive Special was first produced in 1908 and is characterized by a lengthened frame to accommodate the .38 Special round.
Previously, the longest round that the gun could fit was the .38 New Police (Colt's name for the .38 S&W). In 1924, the factory changed to Walnut grips instead of the hard rubber ones seen here.

Other than that I don't know much more. The screw heads are not in great shape, but the barrel and forcing cone are in quite good to excellent shape. I don't think it has been re-blued because the grooves don't look blued but the rest of the finish is pretty close to perfect.

- Ivan.


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## special ed (Nov 8, 2021)

It could have been factory order for a small sheriff's office or small city. Before WW2 many counties could order/buy what they wanted. My first wife had a girlfriend from high school in Kansas whose father was a sheriff and carried a Thompson in his patrol car until he retired in the late 50s.


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## Ivan1GFP (Nov 8, 2021)

special ed said:


> It could have been factory order for a small sheriff's office or small city. Before WW2 many counties could order/buy what they wanted. My first wife had a girlfriend from high school in Kansas whose father was a sheriff and carried a Thompson in his patrol car until he retired in the late 50s.



Hello Special Ed,

Do you suppose this could have been ordered by the Mayberry, North Carolina Police Department and spent most of its life with only one bullet in the cylinder? Hmmmm.... I never got any kind of back story when I bought the gun. Up until Stug3 posted his pictures, I more or less forgot that I even had one. I didn't remember if it was a S&W or a Colt even though I had shot a few boxes of ammunition through it when I first bought it. It was nothing exciting, so it just became a safe queen. I had originally gotten it to see how those old revolvers produced before the age of monster magnums handled.

- Ivan.

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## javlin (Nov 8, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Do you suppose this could have been ordered by the Mayberry, North Carolina Police Department and spent most of its life with only one bullet in the cylinder?


Oh No that one ended up on the set of"Rust".............


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## stug3 (Nov 10, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello stug3,
> 
> I seemed to remember I had something that was a pretty similar configuration to your revolver.
> It is a Colt Police Positive .38 Special and in its configuration, they were produced from 1908 to 1923.
> ...


Very nice, love those grips.


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## stug3 (Nov 18, 2021)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello stug3,
> 
> I seemed to remember I had something that was a pretty similar configuration to your revolver.
> It is a Colt Police Positive .38 Special and in its configuration, they were produced from 1908 to 1923.
> ...


Hey Ivan, I used some photo editing tools to sharpen up your picture some. Its a real classic.

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## wlewisiii (Mar 8, 2022)

I commented in the War thread that I like Zastava products. My ZPAP M-70.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 9, 2022)

She's a beaut!

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## wlewisiii (Mar 9, 2022)

I was thinking that I believe the M-91 DMR is still legal out there. It's no Black Arrow but it might scratch the itch.


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## GrauGeist (Mar 9, 2022)

The M91 is indeed a good looking setup, but right now, anything that's black or "scary" looking is iffy.

I have plenty of "stuff" in my cabinet for the time being.
I just haven't been able to go out and run a few rounds through any of my long arms since my wreck, because the recoil is too much for my carcass.

So that in itself means any .50 cal. arm is not in my future...

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## wlewisiii (Mar 9, 2022)

Wrong place...


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## Ivan1GFP (Mar 17, 2022)

A .50 Cal doesn't have to be a killer in recoil. The McMillan that I tested over my chronograph didn't kick any worse than a 7.92x57 Mauser. It had a HUGE muzzle brake on it so the muzzle blast was like getting hit in the face with a bucket of sand though. Those .50 BMG are a bit expensive to shoot.

As for the M91, it doesn't sound like a particularly accurate rifle from various descriptions. Since it is basically a stretched AK-47 action, one would not expect it to be all that accurate. They DO look cool though.

- Ivan.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 17, 2022)

The injuries I received in my wreck included a split sternum, seven broken ribs, a shattered left collar bone, dislocated left shoulder, heavily fractured L5 vertebrae and so on.

I can fire my Mini-14 all day without issue, but my 7x57 Mauser and 30-30 Model 94 push my limits.
I ran one round through my .300 Savage and about peed myself.

So I'm relegated to smaller caliber semi-automatic rifles if I want to have any sort of range time...

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## XBe02Drvr (Mar 17, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> I can fire my Mini-14 all day without issue, but my 7x57 Mauser and 30-30 Model 94 push my limits.
> I ran one round through my .300 Savage and about peed myself.


Take up traditional style black powder muzzle loaders. They're a lot easier on the shoulder. I don't shoot my .30-30, .270, or 7x57 for fun anymore, just to get the job done. My .50 cal Hawken, .45 cal flint Kentucky, and .44 cal Remington New Model Army are so much more fun and less punishing. Primitive biathlon is a blast, too.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 17, 2022)

I have several Black Powder wheelguns, but never had much desire for the rifles.

They are neat, though, my Stepdad had a beautiful (and original) Harper's Ferry M1803 that we used to take to the range once in a while.


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## XBe02Drvr (Mar 17, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> They are neat, though, my Stepdad had a beautiful (and original) Harper's Ferry M1803 that we used to take to the range once in a while.


Rifle or smoothbore?


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## GrauGeist (Mar 17, 2022)

XBe02Drvr said:


> Rifle or smoothbore?


.54 caliber rifle.


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## javlin (Mar 17, 2022)

My FR 8 1951 I have a sling and bayo inbound.The rifle I would say by the dust in the hidder has not been shot in 10/15 years maybe longer dry and dirty.I took the girl apart today soft brush on a dremel in some areas to polish and remove rust/grime and cleaned up the stock someone had varnished it.




So i used some easy-off washed/scrubbed her and reapplied water in some dings and heat gun next raised about 70% of the dings.I will start applying lind seed oil tomorrow.Some before pics added.

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## Ivan1GFP (Mar 18, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> The injuries I received in my wreck included a split sternum, seven broken ribs, a shattered left collar bone, dislocated left shoulder, heavily fractured L5 vertebrae and so on.
> 
> I can fire my Mini-14 all day without issue, but my 7x57 Mauser and 30-30 Model 94 push my limits.
> I ran one round through my .300 Savage and about peed myself.
> ...



So even though that black powder rifle may not kick much, I don't think using a ram rod would work well for you.
If you really wanted to shoot black powder, I might suggest a Black Powder Sharps, but those beasts generally come no smaller than about .54 caliber and those bullets are heavy enough to give a pretty serious kick no matter how little powder you put behind them. It is hard to push a 400-500 Grain Conical so slowly as to not feel it. I usta shoot a lot of those with 60-70 Grains of FFFg depending on the rifle. The chambers on different rifles were not the same size so powder charges were different.

- Ivan.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 18, 2022)

Ivan1GFP said:


> So even though that black powder rifle may not kick much, I don't think using a ram rod would work well for you.
> If you really wanted to shoot black powder, I might suggest a Black Powder Sharps, but those beasts generally come no smaller than about .54 caliber and those bullets are heavy enough to give a pretty serious kick no matter how little powder you put behind them. It is hard to push a 400-500 Grain Conical so slowly as to not feel it. I usta shoot a lot of those with 60-70 Grains of FFFg depending on the rifle. The chambers on different rifles were not the same size so powder charges were different.
> 
> - Ivan.


If I never am able to shoot large caliber long arm again, I've at least had my time in the sun.

I've fired some pretty hefty shoulder arms in my time, like safari rifles, large gauge shotguns and even my friend's .69 1842 musket and a Brown Bess flintlock that was some gawd-aweful caliber close to 3/4".

And to be 100% honest, I have more fun plinking with my .22s more than anything these days and am happy to leave the monsters in the cabinet for show-n-tell.


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## Ivan1GFP (Mar 19, 2022)

There have been some great riflemen who are no longer with us. They had their time and we remember them.
The nastiest things I have ever fired were either a .460 Weatherby or a .338 Winchester. I own neither but they were on a range and if the owner offers.... The .50 BMG didn't come close in recoil. The .338 Winchester was actually a trade-in at the gun shop and the shop owner wanted to make sure it functioned, so I got to test it.
It didn't even have sights at the time.
A friend had a Brown Bess on the range at one time. From what I remember, it really didn't kick particularly badly. Caliber is an interesting thing. Are you talking about the projectile or the bore? The two are not that close!  They make a really cool sounding "Twang" when shot.
This same fellow brought a 1 inch or larger caliber match lock to one range session. We never fired it hand held, so I have no idea how bad the recoil was. He hooked it on the bench before lighting it off.

- Ivan.

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## javlin (Mar 24, 2022)

The girl dressed and ready to go out..........

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## ARTESH (Mar 26, 2022)

javlin said:


> The girl dressed and ready to go out..........


Beautiful lady!

I hope you didn't forget take extra meal with yourself. She gets hungry, too soon!

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## javlin (Mar 26, 2022)

Dropped 50rds through her today PussyCat.keeper.

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## javlin (Mar 26, 2022)

Just won this in auction VZ-24 to replace the one I gave to my Son.On a roll.Today I spied an American Tactical MP40 9mm 10" barrel $589 last one for a while.

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## ARTESH (Mar 26, 2022)

Congrats!


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## nuuumannn (Mar 26, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> The injuries I received in my wreck included a split sternum, seven broken ribs, a shattered left collar bone, dislocated left shoulder, heavily fractured L5 vertebrae and so on.



Cripes, mate, bionic man? You might suffer later in life with mobility issues. Good to see you recovered ok though, you were lucky by the sounds of things.

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## GrauGeist (Mar 26, 2022)

nuuumannn said:


> Cripes, mate, bionic man? You might suffer later in life with mobility issues. Good to see you recovered ok though, you were lucky by the sounds of things.


I've healed to a certain extent, but still suffer from the injuries. Especially my back and right foot. The range of motion in my left shoulder is limited as well.

I also suffered severe sub-dural hematoma where my shoulder harness and lap belt were located. This resulted in major nerve damage along with several of my internal organs being torn loose. Add to that, my left lung popped like a balloon (and both collapsed) and you start to get the idea that it was not a fun time.

By the way, I flat-lined at the scene and then one more time enroute to the hospital.

It seems that they didn't want me upstairs and the crew in the basement knew I'm a trouble-maker, so they sent me back to torment everyone in the mortal realm!

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## Donivanp (Mar 26, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> I've healed to a certain extent, but still suffer from the injuries. Especially my back and right foot. The range of motion in my left shoulder is limited as well.
> 
> I also suffered severe sub-dural hematoma where my shoulder harness and lap belt were located. This resulted in major nerve damage along with several of my internal organs being torn loose. Add to that, my left lung popped like a balloon (and both collapsed) and you start to get the idea that it was not a fun time.
> 
> ...


I'm definitely not as bad off but I seem to be trying to get there. OA in both shoulders and nerve damage in rt arm. When a weather front comes through I know about it before the weather man. 3600mg Gabapentin a day helps ward off the demons 😈.


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## javlin (Mar 26, 2022)

Guys I feel extremely lucky and blessed in comparison to you guys at 61 years young I still do not wear glasses except for reading and modeling 1x and only the l/shoulder worked on came back 90/100%.


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## nuuumannn (Mar 26, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> By the way, I flat-lined at the scene and then one more time enroute to the hospital.


You're a Fxcking survivor, mate and we are all the more fortunate for it. Just take care as you get older...

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## Frog (Apr 23, 2022)

Interesting assortment at the gun range this morning :

- 9 mm CZ EVO 3 S1 carbine (the gunclub authorizes shoulder weapons at the pistol range if chambered for a handgun round).
- .357 S&W Model 686
- .45 SS Colt Series 70
- 9 mm SIG P 210
- 9 mm Browning Hi Power (mine)
- 9 mm CZ 85
- 9 mm P 018 Bernardelli
- 9 mm CZ 75 Shadow

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## Ivan1GFP (May 10, 2022)

Here is a photograph I took today. This is one of my current project guns. I have had it a long time, but never spent the time to get the kinks out of it. In general, it works very well and is quite accurate, but there were a few nagging things like a plastic mainspring housing. Took me three replacements to finally get one I was satisfied with.

- Ivan.

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## Torch (May 10, 2022)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Here is a photograph I took today. This is one of my current project guns. I have had it a long time, but never spent the time to get the kinks out of it. In general, it works very well and is quite accurate, but there were a few nagging things like a plastic mainspring housing. Took me three replacements to finally get one I was satisfied with.
> 
> - Ivan.
> 
> View attachment 667632


Nicely done, good luck with it


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## Donivanp (May 10, 2022)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Here is a photograph I took today. This is one of my current project guns. I have had it a long time, but never spent the time to get the kinks out of it. In general, it works very well and is quite accurate, but there were a few nagging things like a plastic mainspring housing. Took me three replacements to finally get one I was satisfied with.
> 
> - Ivan.
> 
> View attachment 667632


Gotta love a 1911. Nice


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## Ivan1GFP (May 17, 2022)

1911s are a lot of fun. I spent about an hour and a half tonight tuning the trigger on this beast.
Besides the Delrin (nylon) mainspring housing, the trigger has been the greatest single source of issues. In reality, it all turned out to be a single problem: The sear spring.

Trigger was great when I first got this gun. Break was clean and felt light. I did not have a trigger pull gauge at the time, so I can't quote a number. The problem I was chasing initially was that the magazines would not fall free from the gun if the slide was locked open. After a LOT of checking, I found that what was causing the interference was the sear spring was getting pushed into the magazine well by the mainspring housing. Adjusting the bends solved THAT problem but then caused other problems with changing trigger weight and resistance of the grip safety. Adjusting the trigger weight the first time was a pain especially without a gauge. 
It needed adjusted again when the new steel mainspring housing was installed. (The mainspring housing on a 1911 straightens the sear spring and applies pressure to the trigger and sear. With two new mainspring housings, I had to do this twice.

At the conclusion of tonight's work, the average weight of the trigger is now just over 3 pounds 11 ounces average. I would have wanted about 2 ounces lighter, but I will settle for what I got here.

- Ivan.

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## space dodo (May 17, 2022)

When Im old enough I want to by a Winchester model 70 in 308


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## Ivan1GFP (May 18, 2022)

space dodo said:


> When Im old enough I want to by a Winchester model 70 in 308



What in particular about the Winchester Model 70 do you like?
You do know that there have been a couple different versions of the Winchester 70 action over the decades, right? Some are controlled feed, some are push feed. I don't happen to own one so I can't get any more specific than that.

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (May 18, 2022)

Here is a Kimber Classic Stainless that I was last working on very early this year. It is circa 1998 manufacture and I have had it just a bit longer than the Gold Cup. It is one of the earliest stainless steel guns and is amazingly accurate. I have also had lots of issues to correct with this gun, so have not run more than a couple thousand rounds through it. I had originally wanted an adjustable sight version but I bought this at a show because this gun was tighter than any of the other guns I had found.

On this Kimber, all the changes I have made are externally visible. The first change was to replace the glass fibre Chip McCormick trigger with a Magnesium / Titanium one. Everyone else does Aluminum, so I figured I would be a bit different. Look is the same though. At about the same time I replaced the mainspring housing with one by Wilson Combat. It took two tries to get that one right. At first I tried their wedge shaped one which looked cool but just did not feel right in the hand. Second one was just flat with fine checkering. It actually fits just a bit better than the EGW mainspring housing and checkering feels finer. The grip panels were replaced with Rosewood versions at nearly the same time. It has been so long I forget what the originals looked like.
That was over 20 years ago. Fast forward to late last year when I noticed that the slide stop was getting beat up a bit. Magazine followers were riding past and jamming the gun. It is a Metal Injection Molded part and I finally replaced it with a EGW bar stock part. The original grip safety also was moulded a bit crooked which had bothered me for a long time, so I finally replaced that with a Kimber upgrade part. New part has a memory bump which I don't really like, but it is small and is seen more than felt, so it isn't such a big deal. The part is also hollow underneath, so grinding the bump down isn't really an option.

This gun is a Series 1 without the Swartz firing pin safety found in Series II guns, but has a rather odd assortment of parts. Its firing pin has cuts for both the Swartz safety AND the Colt Series 80 firing pin safety even though the gun has neither. The firing pin stop is cut for clearance for Series 80 parts. The original grip safety is narrowed to clear Series 80 parts. What is even more strange is that the NEW Kimber replacement grip safety is also narrowed to clear Series 80 parts when current production Kimber guns use a Swartz safety and need a different configuration of grip safety!

- Ivan.

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## wlewisiii (May 18, 2022)

If you want a Winchester 70, stick to ones made before 1964. There are newer ones that are controlled feed again but they are still not as good as the pre 64 made firearms. 

I would not mind one in 7x57 Mauser, the finest cartridge ever.

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## GrauGeist (May 18, 2022)

.30-06 is a comparable round to the 7x57mm (which is also my favorite).and is easier to find in stores (at a much better price, too).


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## XBe02Drvr (May 19, 2022)

wlewisiii said:


> I would not mind one in 7x57 Mauser, the finest cartridge ever.





GrauGeist said:


> .30-06 is a comparable round to the 7x57mm (which is also my favorite).and is easier to find in stores (at a much better price, too).


Love that 7x57! Right at home in my '95 Chilean.


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## GrauGeist (May 19, 2022)

I have a WWI era Waffenfabrik Steyer 7x57 with the AustroHungarian Imperial crest that's been in the family since the end of the Great War.
It's been a primary hunting rifle for generations and I myself have bagged game with it in years past.
It is 100% original, deadly accurate iron sights and bears scars of savage trench combat.
In recent years, I've retired the old warhorse to occasional target plinking at the range, since it's over 100 years old, and it occupies a prominent spot in the rifle cabinet.

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## Torch (May 19, 2022)

wlewisiii said:


> If you want a Winchester 70, stick to ones made before 1964. There are newer ones that are controlled feed again but they are still not as good as the pre 64 made firearms.
> 
> I would not mind one in 7x57 Mauser, the finest cartridge ever.


For sure pre 64s are sought after, theres been a huge gap in quality control but I believe the newer ones are built by FN which are pretty good. I would take a pre 64 first then a recent 70


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## Ivan1GFP (May 19, 2022)

Space Dodo's choice of a Winchester 70 in .308 isn't a bad idea, especially if the idea is for a heavy barrel target gun. It is a much more practical caliber than a 7 X 57 unless your idea is just elegance.
I own just one gun in 7 X 57 and have only shot it a few times since I bought it. Ammunition just isn't that easy to find. .308 is available from many sources.

- Ivan.


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## space dodo (May 19, 2022)

Ivan1GFP said:


> What in particular about the Winchester Model 70 do you like?
> You do know that there have been a couple different versions of the Winchester 70 action over the decades, right? Some are controlled feed, some are push feed. I don't happen to own one so I can't get any more specific than that.
> 
> - Ivan.


a pre 64 if possible, however i hear the new ones manufactured by fn are almost the same and a lot cheaper.


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## Shortround6 (May 19, 2022)

Pre '64s were collectors items over 30 years ago.They are/ were excellent rifles but you are paying a premium for what you are getting. 
30 years ago drilling 4 screw holes for a scope mount in a model 70 that didn't have them from the factory (and a lot didn't) was worth about $400.00 off the value of the rifle.
Less popular calibers can bring a real premium as there is a much smaller number to satisfy the collector demand.

I used to do a lot more hand loading. That makes ammo availability a lot less important. 
However you are still dependent on supplies. And in the US that means that things like the 7 X 57 may be just a bit harder to deal with. 
Loading 7 X 57 is no more difficult than .308, you just have a much larger selection of bullets in .308.

Once you have a supply of cartridge cases you are set for quite a while as with neck sizing and backing away from max loads you can easily get 10 reloading from each case.

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## XBe02Drvr (May 19, 2022)

Torch said:


> I believe the newer ones are built by FN which are pretty good.


If you want a "classic" at a bargain price, keep your eyes open for a JC Higgins 50 series rifle in the popular calibers of late 1940s-early 50s. They were Sears Roebuck's "Marshall Plan" to help get FN back on their feet after WWII by opening the chauvinist American sporting market to a quality "foreign" product at an affordable price.
Mauser 98 action, custom chrome-lined barrel, excellent iron sights, but drilled and tapped for a scope, elegant wooden stock; what's not to like?
Gun shops tend to dismiss them as "cheap old Sears junk", as a lot of the JC Higgins line were, but these are gems. Mine is a .270 tack driver that came with a Leupold 4x9 scope for $325 after they dropped the price "to free up shelf space". "Hell, son, I could sell that scope new, by itself, for that price if I could get it".

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## GrauGeist (May 19, 2022)

It's interesting to see which manufacturers made firearms for retailers.
For example, Western Auto stores had their "Revelation" line, which were made by several manufacturers, like Savage, Marlin, Mossberg and Hi-Standard.

JC Penny's line was "Foremost" and was manufactured by Hi-Standard, Marlin and Savage.

The above mentioned Sears brand "JC Higgins", actually had quite a range of manufacturers: Hi-Standard, Winchester, Savage, Marlin and Browning (FN) and more.

You can't go wrong with picking up these store brand firearms, to be honest.

I have a Revelation bolt action .22 and it's a nail-driver.
I also have a JC Higgins .22, though I haven't fired it since 1970 or so, when my Dad was teaching me to shoot.
Dad had it all those years in it's original box (complete with the Sears price tag) and when he passed away in 2012, I inherited it - I beleive I posted a photo of it up-thread back then.


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## wlewisiii (May 19, 2022)

We had a Sears brand 22 and 12 ga. Pump when I was growing up. Both worked well. These days the lower cost but good quality Turkish makers seem be filling the niche.


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## space dodo (May 19, 2022)

Unfortunately getting a gun lisence in SA is not exactly easy


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## Ivan1GFP (May 20, 2022)

Shortround6 said:


> Loading 7 X 57 is no more difficult than .308, you just have a much larger selection of bullets in .308.
> 
> Once you have a supply of cartridge cases you are set for quite a while as with neck sizing and backing away from max loads you can easily get 10 reloading from each case.



I don't know that I ever bought reloadable 7 x 57 ammunition. If I did, it wasn't much of it.
I probably just got some to make sure the gun actually functioned.
As for neck sizing and backing away from max loads, I really can't do that. Gun is a semiauto.

I did pick up a few 7 mm bullets, but those were intended for a 7 mm Magnum. Maybe they are also suitable for 7 mm Mauser.

- Ivan.


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## XBe02Drvr (May 20, 2022)

Ivan1GFP said:


> As for neck sizing and backing away from max loads, I really can't do that. Gun is a semiauto.


Is that the FN (49?) 7x57? I visited Century Arms in 1966 to pick up my mint '95 Mauser ($19), and they had just acquired a warehouseful of FN 7MM assault rifles, which were going out the door for $79.00 a pop. No checkbook or credit card, my pocket change could barely swing the Mauser. On the road with an aquatic biology crew, I had to mooch off my teammates for the rest of the week.

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## Shortround6 (May 20, 2022)

Up until the few years the major US manufactures made reloadable 7 x 57 ammo.
Expensive but since you can reload it a number of times it worked out OK.
Right now who knows??
Getting much of anything is pretty hard.

I have made .260 Rem out of both .308 and .243 in batches of several hundred rounds each.
Problem with the 7 X 57 is that it is in-between the .308 length stuff (51mm) and the .30-06 (63mm) and while the 63mm stuff can be shortened it is a _lot_ more work.
depending on your dies and press you may be able neck neck down 8 x 57 or work on something else (.257 Roberts)?


Neck sizing is easier but some times you can back off a full length die just a bit. Depends on your chamber. You need enough resizing to get the loaded rounds back into _your gun._
Not to get them into a minimum chamber gun, so it depends on where your individual chamber falls.

Backing away from max loads is sometimes a question of just a few percent in the powder charge, like maybe using 42.0 grains of powder instead of 44.0 grains? The chamber pressure goes up a lot faster than the velocity so sometimes you can get a reliable load and not beat the crap out of the gun and brass. Some semi autos are notoriously hard on brass, sometimes because the brass bounces off part of the gun as at clears the ejection port.

If you have a FN-49 the gas port is supposed to be adjustable?

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## Ivan1GFP (May 20, 2022)

Yes, this is a FN-49 / SAFN. It is more a Battle Rifle than an assault rifle. No full auto, no detachable magazine even. I believe it is Venezuelan contract. I can't recall if the receiver has a dovetail on the side or not.

I have actually converted a lot of military .30-06 into 7.92 x 57 in the past. It was no big deal to do.
Did you know 8 mm Mauser came with a Lake City headstamp????
As for the FN, you do NOT want to have oversize or marginally sized cases. I don't undersize cases in any caliber if I can help it, but on certain guns, there isn't a lot of camming force to close the action. The FN-49 is like the FN FAL in that respect. Rotating bolts are a lot easier to deal with.
The gas system can be adjusted but screwing with that generally means destroying or damaging a few cases while doing the tuning. That isn't a big deal if you are using military surplus, but not so good with reloadable stuff that is hard to get.
Chances are that if I had bought any reloadable stuff it would have been by PPU or Sellier Bellot.

I once had a FN-49 that was converted to .308 Winchester. The fellow who did the conversion didn't really arrange things all that well so even with the sleeve screwed completely shut to put max pressure into the gas cylinder, it would not always cycle. I got my money back because the gun didn't work.
It would have been a really cool toy if it had worked.

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (Jul 18, 2022)

Hello All.
This is a pistol that is the same age as the book in the photograph and I have had it since it was new.
It was introduced in 1986 and when I bought it in 1987, it was not available in stainless steel yet. This particular gun is very well used with about 10,000 rounds through it of which roughly 8,500 were full power magnum loads. You all have already seen the effects of that many rounds on the forcing cone.
Accuracy is still quite good enough to pop a staple without a great deal of effort at 15 yards if the operator is capable. The holster is the same age as the gun.

- Ivan.

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## GrauGeist (Jul 18, 2022)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello All.
> This is a pistol that is the same age as the book in the photograph and I have had it since it was new.
> It was introduced in 1986 and when I bought it in 1987, it was not available in stainless steel yet. This particular gun is very well used with about 10,000 rounds through it of which roughly 8,500 were full power magnum loads. You all have already seen the effects of that many rounds on the forcing cone.
> Accuracy is still quite good enough to pop a staple without a great deal of effort at 15 yards if the operator is capable. The holster is the same age as the gun.
> ...


The holster looks like one of the early production styles of Uncle Mike's holsters.


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## drgondog (Jul 19, 2022)

Ivan1GFP said:


> I don't know that I ever bought reloadable 7 x 57 ammunition. If I did, it wasn't much of it.
> I probably just got some to make sure the gun actually functioned.
> As for neck sizing and backing away from max loads, I really can't do that. Gun is a semiauto.
> 
> ...


The 7mm ammo (.284) is suitable for 7mm Mauser, 284, 280, 280 Ackley imp, 7 Rem Mag, 7 Wthby Mag, etc. 
Easiest to find (relative) is 140, 150, 160 and 175gr bullets.

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## drgondog (Jul 19, 2022)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Yes, this is a FN-49 / SAFN. It is more a Battle Rifle than an assault rifle. No full auto, no detachable magazine even. I believe it is Venezuelan contract. I can't recall if the receiver has a dovetail on the side or not.
> 
> I have actually converted a lot of military .30-06 into 7.92 x 57 in the past. It was no big deal to do.
> Did you know 8 mm Mauser came with a Lake City headstamp????
> ...


Curious re process to fireform 30-06 in 7.92x57. The SAAMI specs asy the 30-06 case is longer (2.494) vs 7.92x51 (2.240). Addiionally the shoulder is longer (1.948 vs 1.827). Offhand, even the shoulder diameter is greater for 30-06. Can't chamber 30-06 into 8mm. 

Did you mean .308/7.62x51? That's doable with caution.

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## Shortround6 (Jul 19, 2022)

It requires trimming the brass to the correct length, then sizing the shoulder to its correct location/shape. 

If the shoulder is a bit smaller (I haven't looked it up) you can leave just enough bump at the base of the neck to headspace on. 
A light bullet with a reduced load should pop the shoulder out full dimension. 
A lot of work but the case should be good for a number of firings in a Bolt action rifle.

It may help if you have forming dies instead of just full length sizing dies and a large press and sturdy bench.

It may be too much trouble and expense for just a couple of boxes of brass.


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## drgondog (Jul 19, 2022)

Shortround6 said:


> It requires trimming the brass to the correct length, then sizing the shoulder to its correct location/shape.
> 
> If the shoulder is a bit smaller (I haven't looked it up) you can leave just enough bump at the base of the neck to headspace on.
> A light bullet with a reduced load should pop the shoulder out full dimension.
> ...


SR - take a look at SAAMI spec. Iwould doubt that any die combination will take a 30-06 to a 7x51. First the nect thim of 06 needs to be about .25 leaving about 0.14 neck. Next the diameter to the shoulder of 06 is 0.441 at 1.948 inch from base. The 8x57 'shoulder' of 0.431 is at 1.827 from the base' - that is a LOT of diameter reduction of the 06 case behind the shoulder/neck to get down to 8x57. Then the real begins with required next step - 'push' the 30-06 shoulder back from 1.948 to 1.827 so that the intemediate case will at least chamber - with no headspace for fireforming. What next? 

MAYBE the 8x57 die can accept the trimmed 06 brass (with 40 degree shouler) into the 20 degree 8x57 shoulder and ently pressure squeeze with many strokes to jam the longer/larger diameter 06 case - but I doubt worth the effort if even possible. The 06 case has to really have a lot of power applied to ge the shoulder datum correct from 06 to x57.

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## Shortround6 (Jul 19, 2022)

It can be a done and there are a lot of ways/paths it can be done. 
Questions are how much money and or time do you want to spend. 





A number of videos on You tube. 
Anything from jigs with power trimers to using a hacksaw across the top of a die for shorting the case.





You can bump the case neck up bit (like to take a .338-358 expander plug? ) and then neck it back to take the .323 bullet leaving a small false shoulder at the base of the neck and use a light load to expand the body/shoulder to the needed size. 

Again, it is not cost (or time) effective for 20-40 cases, but if you have a lot of 30-06 cases and you need/want a lot reloadable 8mm cases it is quite possible. 
Many companies that sell reloading equipment will have stuff in their catalog. You may have to go to the manufactures and not you your local gun shop. 
Some companies will offer kits or die sets to do this or to convert may other calibers. 

It is possible to make .even .22-250 cases from .30-06 but that takes a lot more work and more steps and a higher scrap rate.

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## drgondog (Jul 19, 2022)

Shortround6 said:


> It can be a done and there are a lot of ways/paths it can be done.
> Questions are how much money and or time do you want to spend.
> 
> View attachment 678378
> ...


SR - I agree with you that it can be done. My issues were 'why in hell would I go throught that process'. BTW nice assembly of images showing the tortuous process.

Over the years I have moved about 10 bolt/single shot guns and calibers and settled on 25-06, 30-06 and 338-06 (see a pattern here) plus the .308.

I only have 308 and 30-06 factory and make the rest out of 30-06 brass. I have a LOT of 30-36 resources, as well as 308 and 556

I used to loveand build off the 284 Win case. Too old and cranky now.

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## Ivan1GFP (Jul 19, 2022)

drgondog said:


> Curious re process to fireform 30-06 in 7.92x57. The SAAMI specs asy the 30-06 case is longer (2.494) vs 7.92x51 (2.240). Addiionally the shoulder is longer (1.948 vs 1.827). Offhand, even the shoulder diameter is greater for 30-06. Can't chamber 30-06 into 8mm.
> 
> Did you mean .308/7.62x51? That's doable with caution.



Hello Drgondog,
I actually didn't say anything about "fireforming" cases. I just stated "Conversions".
I had a lot of .30-06 GI Lake City cases and needed 7.92 x 57. There was nothing fancy about it. Just a resize and serious trim and everything worked out fine. I remember also trying to anneal them, but that didn't seem to make any great difference. 
The point was that it could be done with ANY .30-06 or case with a similar sized head, but with commercial cases, there is the headstamp that says something different and the 7.92 Mauser isn't greatly different in appearance from a .30-06 at a casual glance..... If you mistakenly chamber a loaded round in a ,30-06 though, it could ruin your whole day! Best that the headstamp doesn't say something that it isn't, thus "LC 68" is just a touch less dangerous.

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (Jul 19, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> The holster looks like one of the early production styles of Uncle Mike's holsters.



Hello GrauGeist,
The first photograph actually has "Uncle Mike" on the plastic buckle. I don't know anything about the history of those holsters. I just bought one because it looked to be pretty good quality and was inexpensive. Considering the age, it seems to have held up pretty well.
The revolver was under $300 at the time. Contrast that to what they cost today! Trigger on these early guns was LOUSY. Over the decades, they have seriously improved. This particular gun actually has been seriously reworked and the trigger and timing is quite good. Springs are either by Wolff or Wilson. It has been so long I forget which.

Perhaps I should not tell you all this, but this photograph is "staged". This gun is not normally in this configuration. It normally wears a set of very similar looking compact grips from one of the fixed sight GP100s. The original grips wore out from use long ago.

- Ivan.


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## Ivan1GFP (Jul 22, 2022)

This is the actual set of compact grips it normally wears. If I had known they would stop making these and transition to Hogue style grips, I would have bought a few more sets for when these wear out. Nothing happens to the wood, but the rubber is not very resistant to cleaning solvents and gets hard and shiny.

- Ivan.

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## Ivan1GFP (Jul 22, 2022)

drgondog said:


> The 7mm ammo (.284) is suitable for 7mm Mauser, 284, 280, 280 Ackley imp, 7 Rem Mag, 7 Wthby Mag, etc.
> Easiest to find (relative) is 140, 150, 160 and 175gr bullets.



Hello Drgondog,
I hadn't commented earlier, but I actually have a fair supply of 7 mm bullets. I happen to reload for the 7 mm Magnum for a Remington 700. I can't recall what the weights are because I haven't reloaded for that caliber in quite some time though.
There is some work that needs to be done to that gun first though: New scope and mounts.

- Ivan.


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## drgondog (Jul 23, 2022)

Ivan1GFP said:


> Hello Drgondog,
> I hadn't commented earlier, but I actually have a fair supply of 7 mm bullets. I happen to reload for the 7 mm Magnum for a Remington 700. I can't recall what the weights are because I haven't reloaded for that caliber in quite some time though.
> There is some work that needs to be done to that gun first though: New scope and mounts.
> 
> - Ivan.


I loaded all the hot 7mm's with 140 or 175, depending- but for the big animal like elk, moose and bear i moved to 338/340 and never looked back. Had I gone to Africa I would have taken 30-06 or 300WM and the 375. At 77 I'm not mad at anything any more - unless we have a power grid shutdown.

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## Ivan1GFP (Jul 24, 2022)

drgondog said:


> I loaded all the hot 7mm's with 140 or 175, depending- but for the big animal like elk, moose and bear i moved to 338/340 and never looked back. Had I gone to Africa I would have taken 30-06 or 300WM and the 375. At 77 I'm not mad at anything any more - unless we have a power grid shutdown.



I don't hunt at all. The 7 mm Magnum is intended only for target shooting. When I bought the rifle, I threw on a cheap set of Weaver bases and a BSA scope. Since then I have acquired a one piece base and a couple Bushnell ScopeChiefs. The optics are not really modern, but they are period appropriate (Mid 1960s) for the rifle and it is an all around better scope than the BSA. I just need to do some work, but at the moment, I am a bit more occupied with tuning pistols. I would also rather find a one piece Redfield turn-in base and rings instead of using the one piece steel Weaver base I already have even though the Weaver base with 20 MOA inclination would probably be more suited for target use.
As for a high power rifle, this particular 7 mm Mag isn't anywhere near as accurate as my .300 Win Mag, so it really isn't a first choice for anything other than something to play with. That is why it hasn't been a high priority to load for it or to finish working on it.

- Ivan.


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## drgondog (Jul 25, 2022)

Ivan1GFP said:


> I don't hunt at all. The 7 mm Magnum is intended only for target shooting. When I bought the rifle, I threw on a cheap set of Weaver bases and a BSA scope. Since then I have acquired a one piece base and a couple Bushnell ScopeChiefs. The optics are not really modern, but they are period appropriate (Mid 1960s) for the rifle and it is an all around better scope than the BSA. I just need to do some work, but at the moment, I am a bit more occupied with tuning pistols. I would also rather find a one piece Redfield turn-in base and rings instead of using the one piece steel Weaver base I already have even though the Weaver base with 20 MOA inclination would probably be more suited for target use.
> As for a high power rifle, this particular 7 mm Mag isn't anywhere near as accurate as my .300 Win Mag, so it really isn't a first choice for anything other than something to play with. That is why it hasn't been a high priority to load for it or to finish working on it.
> 
> - Ivan.


My only venture into a custom was a Jarrett 280 Ackley Improved Beanfield Model - with Leupold 2x9 it was a steady 1/2in five shot group up to 400 yards when the 3x9 ran out of range for my eyes. That said, nearly every Remington M700 I ever had was a 1 MOA out of the box. Any rifle I ever acqired that wasn't capable of 1" before tuning found another home to a less picky person. I have re-barrelled four or five, with Wiseman or Krieger barrels and happy with all.

Before I started liquidating my gun collection over last two years (my kids/grandkids are primary bird hunters and each have two of my prize rifes) but the recent 6.5 Creedmore with Nightforce glass and mounts was better than the Jarret at 400+. A really good shooter could compete at 1000 with this one - but I'm too old to try. My pistol tuning started and stopped at 1911's, primarily barrels, bushings and triggers - I started with stock Colt 1911A1, then Gold Cup because the trigger is better - but candidly buying a Wilson or equivalent made more sense. That said (eyes again), I'm not capable of better than 2 1/2-3 in groups anymore with a pistol capable of 1".

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## wlewisiii (Jul 25, 2022)

My biggest improvement in pistol accuracy came from trading my 1911 in for a CZ75B... the inside rails and losing the swinging link ala the Hi-Power made a huge improvement.

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## drgondog (Jul 25, 2022)

wlewisiii said:


> My biggest improvement in pistol accuracy came from trading my 1911 in for a CZ75B... the inside rails and losing the swinging link ala the Hi-Power made a huge improvement.


I could see that would be an improvement, but mine is really accurate and my pointy haid loves the 1911.

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## SaparotRob (Jul 25, 2022)

Gotta' love the classics.


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## Ivan1GFP (Jul 25, 2022)

drgondog said:


> My only venture into a custom was a Jarrett 280 Ackley Improved Beanfield Model - with Leupold 2x9 it was a steady 1/2in five shot group up to 400 yards when the 3x9 ran out of range for my eyes. That said, nearly every Remington M700 I ever had was a 1 MOA out of the box. Any rifle I ever acqired that wasn't capable of 1" before tuning found another home to a less picky person. I have re-barrelled four or five, with Wiseman or Krieger barrels and happy with all.
> 
> Before I started liquidating my gun collection over last two years (my kids/grandkids are primary bird hunters and each have two of my prize rifes) but the recent 6.5 Creedmore with Nightforce glass and mounts was better than the Jarret at 400+. A really good shooter could compete at 1000 with this one - but I'm too old to try. My pistol tuning started and stopped at 1911's, primarily barrels, bushings and triggers - I started with stock Colt 1911A1, then Gold Cup because the trigger is better - but candidly buying a Wilson or equivalent made more sense. That said (eyes again), I'm not capable of better than 2 1/2-3 in groups anymore with a pistol capable of 1".



To be honest, I have never really been much into hunting rifles. As for customs, the .308 VSSF was rebuilt mostly out of necessity. The basic gun with tailored handloads could shoot sub MOA, but I wanted a gun that could do it with off the shelf ammunition and ammunition that would fit in the magazine. I figured I could control more things by buying and fitting a brand new Shilen heavy barrel than having someone machine the existing Remington barrel and set it back a thread. At that point, with the original barrel, nothing would really look right anyway and there were issues with the existing H&S Precision stock. As soon as the choice of a new barrel was made, essentially, all that was left of the original gun was the bolt and receiver and trigger group. I had already done rebarreling and finish chambering before a couple times, so it wasn't such a bit deal. Aligning the new recoil lug was a pain though.
When your bolt guns are mostly military surplus and iron sighted, expecting sub MOA isn't terribly realistic....

As mentioned earlier, I am on a bit of a pistolsmithing kick at the moment. It started when I realized that many parts that Ruger did not sell were now available as parts sets on eBay starting about a year or two ago. A bit of money and I had plenty of parts to mix and match to rebuild and improve a couple guns that had sat broken for decades. I learned a lot by experimenting with the parts sets and buying a couple spring kits.

Today's task was to fit a new sear spring into a Colt Gold Cup (in the photo upthread). The sear spring (Nowlin) needed a touch of work and the typical adjustment, but the end result is that I now have the trigger breaking at around 3 pounds 10 ounces though it feels a lot lighter. What came out was a Clark 4 leaf sear spring. I really don't like those.



wlewisiii said:


> My biggest improvement in pistol accuracy came from trading my 1911 in for a CZ75B... the inside rails and losing the swinging link ala the Hi-Power made a huge improvement.



A properly tuned 1911 can be amazingly accurate. 1911s tuned for Bullseye competition often can hold a 1 inch group at 50 yards. I have never tested my guns out that far, but I have one that was able to keep every group fired off the bench for several months averaging under 1.5 inches at 25 yards. It is not the most accurate 1911 I own. The ones with Kart barrels seem to do better than that. The swinging link is not really a problem for accuracy. The bullet is long gone by the time the barrel begins to link down. 1911s have plenty of other issues....

- Ivan.

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## Torch (Jul 26, 2022)

Don’t feel bad, my CZ Shadow 2 and Sig P210 both outshoot my eyesight. Orange front dot sight helps alot.

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## manta22 (Jul 28, 2022)

Negative Creep said:


> Some nice weapons there. Just a shame the deadliest thing we can own over here is an air rifle


So you will be throwing rocks at the Chinese when they show up on your door step?


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## GrauGeist (Jul 28, 2022)

manta22 said:


> So you will be throwing rocks at the Chinese when they show up on your door step?


Air rifles hurt like a b*tch...


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## Torch (Jul 29, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> Air rifles hurt like a b*tch...


Yeah you can shoot your eye out

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## Ivan1GFP (Sep 28, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> Air rifles hurt like a b*tch...



My puny little RWS / Diana 460 will launch a 14.something Grain .22 cal pellet at about 870 FPS. They advertise a lot higher, but chronograph says about 870 FPS average. That is not even one of the higher velocity air rifles any more.
That is faster than GI Ball ammunition from a .45 Auto. Some of the really big air rifles today will put a much larger .45 cal "Pellet" out at about the same speed. These big air rifles make pretty viable hunting rifles for deer.

A couple weeks ago, I was working on yet another old 1911. I swapped out the sear spring with one by Cylinder & Slide and replace the sear with a brand new one from Colt. It seems to have cured the creep in the trigger and weight is now 3 pounds 11 ounces.
Last week I was shopping for yet another 1911 type. I am hoping to get a Kimber Pro Raptor II. I had to learn what al the Kimber code words meant. I don't want a "Carry" because that would be an aluminium frame gun.... Pro means it would be a Commander length gun with a full size grip frame.


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## manta22 (Sep 28, 2022)

"Last week I was shopping for yet another 1911 type." Have a look at a CZ85 or CZ75- all steel.

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## Ivan1GFP (Sep 28, 2022)

I have had a CZ 75 clone for well over 20 years now. It is a pretty accurate gun, but the trigger reach in double action is a bit long.

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## wlewisiii (Sep 28, 2022)

manta22 said:


> "Last week I was shopping for yet another 1911 type." Have a look at a CZ85 or CZ75- all steel.


The Turkish company, Canik made some excellent CZ clones. I love mine.

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## manta22 (Sep 28, 2022)

Ivan1GFP said:


> I have had a CZ 75 clone for well over 20 years now. It is a pretty accurate gun, but the trigger reach in double action is a bit long.


My CZ85 is more accurate than my Browning High Power.


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## Ivan1GFP (Sep 28, 2022)

My CZ75 is actually a AT84 made by ITM of Switzerland. I don't really know if it is any more accurate than my Hi Powers. The Mk II Hi Power will shoot under 1.5 inches at 25 yards. I am not sure about the Mk III because I haven't shot it anywhere near as much and haven't worked up any really great target loads. 9 mm was always so cheap until recently that there really wasn't much of a point to reloading for it and I got out of pistol reloading for a few years to concentrate on rifles. The AT84 is pretty similar in accuracy to the Hi Powers but doesn't really shoot to point of aim. It shoots about a foot high at 25 yards. One of the issues with the Mk III Hi Power is that it still has the factory fixed sights. The Mk II has adjustable rear which luckily matches with the very fixed front sight (machined as part of the slide).
I know for sure that at least a couple 1911s with Kart NM barrels have shot better than any of the 9 mm but don't know if that is a matter of ammunition. I have literally been able to get groups of one ragged hole out to 25 yards. I have done quite a lot of reloading for .45 ACP but it has all been fairly hot loads because I tend to use fairly heavy recoil springs. Another 1911 wears a Bar-Sto barrel and yet another wears an Ed Brown barrel. The Ed Brown barrel was the first ever that I fit to a gun and is not really a hard fit barrel so I might be able to tighten it up a bit with a larger slide stop. I hesitated to mess with it though because it will hold under 1.5 inches now and is perfectly reliable and I use it as a home defence gun.


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## manta22 (Sep 28, 2022)

Ivan1GFP said:


> My CZ75 is actually a AT84 made by ITM of Switzerland. I don't really know if it is any more accurate than my Hi Powers. The Mk II Hi Power will shoot under 1.5 inches at 25 yards. I am not sure about the Mk III because I haven't shot it anywhere near as much and haven't worked up any really great target loads. 9 mm was always so cheap until recently that there really wasn't much of a point to reloading for it and I got out of pistol reloading for a few years to concentrate on rifles. The AT84 is pretty similar in accuracy to the Hi Powers but doesn't really shoot to point of aim. It shoots about a foot high at 25 yards. One of the issues with the Mk III Hi Power is that it still has the factory fixed sights. The Mk II has adjustable rear which luckily matches with the very fixed front sight (machined as part of the slide).
> I know for sure that at least a couple 1911s with Kart NM barrels have shot better than any of the 9 mm but don't know if that is a matter of ammunition. I have literally been able to get groups of one ragged hole out to 25 yards. I have done quite a lot of reloading for .45 ACP but it has all been fairly hot loads because I tend to use fairly heavy recoil springs. Another 1911 wears a Bar-Sto barrel and yet another wears an Ed Brown barrel. The Ed Brown barrel was the first ever that I fit to a gun and is not really a hard fit barrel so I might be able to tighten it up a bit with a larger slide stop. I hesitated to mess with it though because it will hold under 1.5 inches now and is perfectly reliable and I use it as a home defence gun.


I'm talking out-of-the-box pistols- no modifications. Both my CZ-85 and High Power are originals, produced by CZ and Browning. That was my experience with these two pistols.


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## Torch (Sep 29, 2022)

I just tried the Canik Mete, outstanding trigger, rivals my CZ Shadow2, Dan Wesson Specialist, Sig P210. Much better than my non stock Glock 45 and HK VP9. They give you alot of bang for buck. Put it on layaway, it’ll be a great target gun. I realize the difference between sa/da and striker fire but the trigger pull and reset on the Mete and Rival series are fantastic


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## Ivan1GFP (Sep 29, 2022)

manta22 said:


> I'm talking out-of-the-box pistols- no modifications. Both my CZ-85 and High Power are originals, produced by CZ and Browning. That was my experience with these two pistols.



If we are restricted to out of the box, then for centerfire auto pistols, then my Kimber Classic Stainless would probably be one of the best. It has as good accuracy as the best 1911s but there were always some problems with the gun until recently when I replaced a few pieces. The AT84 isn't necessarily worse, it just doesn't shoot to point of aim. The Swiss make some pretty nice firearms. Nothing special about the Hi Powers I own, but they are made by Browning as well. They are just very common guns and are both the older forged guns so they are not quite as tough as the later cast receiver guns. I just bought a few replacement recoil springs for them last month.
For Revolvers, the general standards are pretty high. I know the GP100 is accurate enough to kill thumbtacks out to 15 yards. It is literally a "Tack Driver" and that is with full power loads. The Redhawk is just as accurate, but is not all that comfortable to hold or to shoot especially with full power loads.


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## manta22 (Sep 30, 2022)

Ivan1GFP said:


> If we are restricted to out of the box, then for centerfire auto pistols, then my Kimber Classic Stainless would probably be one of the best. It has as good accuracy as the best 1911s but there were always some problems with the gun until recently when I replaced a few pieces. The AT84 isn't necessarily worse, it just doesn't shoot to point of aim. The Swiss make some pretty nice firearms. Nothing special about the Hi Powers I own, but they are made by Browning as well. They are just very common guns and are both the older forged guns so they are not quite as tough as the later cast receiver guns. I just bought a few replacement recoil springs for them last month.
> For Revolvers, the general standards are pretty high. I know the GP100 is accurate enough to kill thumbtacks out to 15 yards. It is literally a "Tack Driver" and that is with full power loads. The Redhawk is just as accurate, but is not all that comfortable to hold or to shoot especially with full power loads.


1911s just don't fit my hand very well. The CZ75/85 is an excellent grip for me while the 1911 feels like gripping a package of playing cards.

Ever tried a Polish VIS (P35) ? I have one that has a bore that looks like a rat hole but it still shoots reasonably accurately. Strange.

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## Frog (Sep 30, 2022)

As reloading has been mentioned, can someone tell when the present primers shortage will end ?


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## Ivan1GFP (Sep 30, 2022)

manta22 said:


> 1911s just don't fit my hand very well. The CZ75/85 is an excellent grip for me while the 1911 feels like gripping a package of playing cards.
> 
> Ever tried a Polish VIS (P35) ? I have one that has a bore that looks like a rat hole but it still shoots reasonably accurately. Strange.



I know I have seen the Polish Radom Pistol, but I am pretty sure I have never shot one. Sometimes barrels are unpredictable. With pistols, it is mostly a matter of how well fitted the barrels are and how consistent the lockup is. With revolvers, it is a lot harder to figure out though I am learning....

Regarding 1911s, 35 years ago, I would have agreed with you. Today, I won't because there are a lot more choices and many companies produced and customize the guns in ways that make them fit a lot of different people. My issue with the first Colt that I bought was the same: It felt too big and just didn't seem to point all that well. After just changing to a pair of thin checkered Rosewood grip panels, the gun feels totally different. Each grip panel is thinned about 1/16 inch. It doesn't sound like much but feels very different. I am about to do the same for another Colt gun with stock Colt medallion grips. Some companies cut a different radius under the trigger guard and that improves how the gun sits in the hand. The Colt Gold Cup I posted a picture of some time back had that done at the factory. Kimber does that also but in a less obvious manner. Some companies carve up or checker the front of the grip frame or have different shapes of grip safety and mainspring housings and triggers which change the general handling of the pistol.


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## Ivan1GFP (Sep 30, 2022)

Frog said:


> As reloading has been mentioned, can someone tell when the present primers shortage will end ?



Primers CAN be found at this point. In another forum, a member mentioned that Midway had a good supply of some primers. I don't know if the prices are particularly good though, especially with the HAZMAT fees.
Which size of primers are you looking for?


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## Frog (Sep 30, 2022)

Any small pistol, almost unavoidable here.
The story is that because of the demand for police and military use, the maufacturers privilege the production of their own cartridges brands, and have put aside the components, pending better times.


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## Token (Sep 30, 2022)

Ivan1GFP said:


> A couple weeks ago, I was working on yet another old 1911. I swapped out the sear spring with one by Cylinder & Slide and replace the sear with a brand new one from Colt. It seems to have cured the creep in the trigger and weight is now 3 pounds 11 ounces.
> Last week I was shopping for yet another 1911 type. I am hoping to get a Kimber Pro Raptor II. I had to learn what al the Kimber code words meant. I don't want a "Carry" because that would be an aluminium frame gun.... Pro means it would be a Commander length gun with a full size grip frame.



Everyone has their reason, and everyone is entitled to opinions. But what do you have against AL frame guns? Just wanting to hear the reasoning. Although I typically like steel better, I have a few AL frame pistols, in various calibers, some with 10's of thousands of rounds through them, at least one with over a 100k rounds. I have a Kimber Pro Carry II that I quite like, and have quite a few rounds through.

T!


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## Ivan1GFP (Sep 30, 2022)

I have quite a few Aluminum frame guns in 9 mm.
The problem with an aluminum frame in a .45 ACP 1911 is that the frame is part of the feed ramp on these guns and with the wrong kind of magazine (Chip McCormick) with Devel followers, the follower may move forward and impact the feed ramp. It has no effect on a steel frame. On aluminum, it chews up the feed ramp. I know Colt 8 round magazines may also have the same "Shooting Star" follower. Some of the more aggressive hollow point ammunition will do the same thing over time and once the anodized coating is gone, the bare aluminum does not resist further damage very well. General estimates of the lifespan of the aluminum 1911 is somewhere between 15,000 and 25,000 rounds which is fairly low in my opinion. That is taking into account that other parts of the frame may crack with impact damage. These guns were intended to be carried often and shot relatively seldom.
A Frame Insert block or fully ramped barrel prevents the feed ramp from being chewed but it doesn't prevent the eventual frame cracking. Your Kimber Pro Carry may survive longer but many similar guns do not.

I have no real issues with well designed guns such as a SIG or Beretta or Taurus that use an aluminum frame because the frame is not subject to the same level of stress. Some like the SIG have a steel block which takes the real stress. The Walther P1 probably falls into the same category but I have no experience with the gun. I am not so sure about aluminum S&W automatics. The ones I have examined seem to always show wear on the surfaces that cam the barrel down for unlocking and they are very thin sections of the frame.

That's my opinion and a bit of historical data, YMMV of course.

- Ivan.


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## GrauGeist (Sep 30, 2022)

My S&W 39-2 is the only SA sidearm I own, that has an aluminum alloy frame.
I don't fire it often, but when I do, it's off the shelf ammunition.

It is a nail-driver, though.


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## Ivan1GFP (Sep 30, 2022)

I figure mine only does about a 2-3 inch 5 shot group at 25 yards which isn't great in comparison with other guns. That's with good ammunition. Sometimes it will do worse.


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## Token (Oct 1, 2022)

Ivan1GFP said:


> I have quite a few Aluminum frame guns in 9 mm.
> The problem with an aluminum frame in a .45 ACP 1911 is that the frame is part of the feed ramp on these guns and with the wrong kind of magazine (Chip McCormick) with Devel followers, the follower may move forward and impact the feed ramp. It has no effect on a steel frame. On aluminum, it chews up the feed ramp. I know Colt 8 round magazines may also have the same "Shooting Star" follower. Some of the more aggressive hollow point ammunition will do the same thing over time and once the anodized coating is gone, the bare aluminum does not resist further damage very well.



Got it. Yes, looking at the feed ramp of the 1911 I see what you mean. Thus far I have had no issue with my Pro Carry II, and it is the only AL frame 1911 I own, the rest are all steel. I have well over 10k rounds in that pistol, but the majority would be FMJ or RNL. I have a few other AL frame .45's, but no other AL frame 1911's.



Ivan1GFP said:


> General estimates of the lifespan of the aluminum 1911 is somewhere between 15,000 and 25,000 rounds which is fairly low in my opinion. That is taking into account that other parts of the frame may crack with impact damage. These guns were intended to be carried often and shot relatively seldom.
> A Frame Insert block or fully ramped barrel prevents the feed ramp from being chewed but it doesn't prevent the eventual frame cracking. Your Kimber Pro Carry may survive longer but many similar guns do not.
> 
> I have no real issues with well designed guns such as a SIG or Beretta or Taurus that use an aluminum frame because the frame is not subject to the same level of stress. Some like the SIG have a steel block which takes the real stress. The Walther P1 probably falls into the same category but I have no experience with the gun. I am not so sure about aluminum S&W automatics. The ones I have examined seem to always show wear on the surfaces that cam the barrel down for unlocking and they are very thin sections of the frame.



My wife has a Taurus PT-99AF, AL frame, it has over 100k rounds and the only failure has been the trigger bar, which broke after about 60k rounds. Looking at the frame there is a ramped section before the barrel ramp. However, looking at the way the ammunition presents, I believe rounds will generally not contact that ramped section of the frame, there is no way the follower makes contact, and in this case it shows very little wear in that location. Maybe it is not really a ramp in this case, but rather a clearance cut below the ramp.

As for AL S&W autos, I have a few (all 3rd gen and older, nothing very new). The one with the highest round count is probably a 915, I am guessing it is on the far side of 75k rounds. Of course, that is 9mm. But all of the Smith pistols I have appear to have fully ramped barrels, no ramping on the frame. I do have a S&W 4513TSW that is AL framed (fully ramped barrel), and it has several 10's of k rounds in it, no sign of odd wear or cracking. Also a full sized 4563TSW with AL frame, but that one has very few rounds through it. Some of my steel frame S&W .45's have very high round counts on them, all holding up very well.

T!


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## GrauGeist (Oct 1, 2022)

I can hold a rough 2" group at 25 yards with my 39-2 free-standing, I can tighten it up with a bench rest.

Considering that my S&W is for personal defense, a bad man's body being much larger and most likely being closer than a paper target at 75 feet, will experience a great amount of discomfort as holes appear in them regardless of grouping.

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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 1, 2022)

Hello Token,
The .45 ACP is a lot more abusive to a gun than a 9 mm. You can gather that by the difference in the typical rates of the recoil springs. A 9 mm 1911 spring will be around 10-12 pounds. A .45 ACP spring from the factory is supposed to be 16 pounds but can run anywhere from 14 to 18.5 pounds with pretty fair results.
The .45 Auto is also a significantly longer round but the space for the round to load from the magazine is obviously no greater if we are talking 1911. That means the round makes some pretty drastic changes of angles as it feeds and greater likelihood of jams.
If you look at the Taurus 92/99, the round is nearly a straight line feed, so there isn't the bumping against feed ramps and changing directions to the same degree.

As for S&W pistols, the feed ramp isn't the big issue. Look instead at the sharp wedges where the frame cams against the barrel to unlock when it recoils. I generally notice quite a bit of wear and bare aluminum on the frame in that area and the sections of the frame which perform this action are quite thin.

As for the Taurus 99, I believe the manufacturing quality is quite high, but I don't have nearly the round count through either of mine that you do though one of the guns was used when I bought it and I have no idea of its prior usage. If it was really beat up, I would not have bought it. 

Hello GrauGeist,
I am glad your S&W 39 does that well. I have not found any ammunition that mine will consistently do that well with. What ammunition does yours like? I know that with the SIGs and Brownings, it was not difficult to find something that would shoot quite well.


- Ivan.


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## GrauGeist (Oct 1, 2022)

My Smith seems to like JHP ammo in the 124 grain range, though most balls in the 115 grain range do well enough.

I know there's hotter loads (147 gr. or higher) but I'm not trying to penetrate a bunker and in a rapid-fire situation, hotter loads tend to take longer to require the target.
Plus hot loads are hard on alloy frames (or older firearms, which many of mine happen to be).


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## manta22 (Oct 1, 2022)

Ivan1GFP said:


> I know I have seen the Polish Radom Pistol, but I am pretty sure I have never shot one. Sometimes barrels are unpredictable. With pistols, it is mostly a matter of how well fitted the barrels are and how consistent the lockup is. With revolvers, it is a lot harder to figure out though I am learning....
> 
> Regarding 1911s, 35 years ago, I would have agreed with you. Today, I won't because there are a lot more choices and many companies produced and customize the guns in ways that make them fit a lot of different people. My issue with the first Colt that I bought was the same: It felt too big and just didn't seem to point all that well. After just changing to a pair of thin checkered Rosewood grip panels, the gun feels totally different. Each grip panel is thinned about 1/16 inch. It doesn't sound like much but feels very different. I am about to do the same for another Colt gun with stock Colt medallion grips. Some companies cut a different radius under the trigger guard and that improves how the gun sits in the hand. The Colt Gold Cup I posted a picture of some time back had that done at the factory. Kimber does that also but in a less obvious manner. Some companies carve up or checker the front of the grip frame or have different shapes of grip safety and mainspring housings and triggers which change the general handling of the pistol.


In some ways it looks a bit like a 1911 but it was strictly a design for the Polish Army in 1936, hence VIS Mod. 35, frequently called a "Radom" after the Arsenal there. This one cost me $12 in the Babenhausen Rod & Gun Club in 1963.

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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 2, 2022)

GrauGeist said:


> My Smith seems to like JHP ammo in the 124 grain range, though most balls in the 115 grain range do well enough.
> 
> I know there's hotter loads (147 gr. or higher) but I'm not trying to penetrate a bunker and in a rapid-fire situation, hotter loads tend to take longer to require the target.
> Plus hot loads are hard on alloy frames (or older firearms, which many of mine happen to be).



There is a lot of variation in JHP ammunition in that range of bullet weights.
For a long time I was using a lot of Winchester Silvertips because they were accurate and reliable in most guns and not expensive. These days everything is pretty expensive.
147 Grain 9 mm ammunition isn't really the hottest stuff around. The velocities tend to be very low (only about 950 FPS) while there are some European ammunition can be ridiculously hot in comparison.
Years ago, I was buying GECO ammunition made in Germany that had 124 Grain bullets that were chronographing about 1220 FPS. The stuff was also quite accurate. I stopped using it when I tried it out in one gun and it left a nice set of blood blisters on my hand.
There are a few guns that won't tolerate a lot of ammunition loaded to this power level (+P or +P+) such as the Browning Hi Power. Apparently those guns won't hold up all that well even to NATO spec ammunition. I was reading an article about how some countries that are still using the BHP as a service pistol are breaking a fair number of them with prolonged use with NATO ammunition.

- Ivan.


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## wlewisiii (Oct 2, 2022)

My CZ clone loves Hornady American Gunner 124gr JHP +P


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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 3, 2022)

My understanding from observing forum discussions is that the CZ clones also have a great tendency to break slide stops with high round counts. I am not quite sure why that is or how it happens. There was one fellow who claimed that he was on his fifth or sixth slide stop.
BHPs have a tendency for their barrels to come apart at around the 25,000 round mark.

A good source for +P 9 mm ammunition is NATO spec ball ammunition which was not that hard to find at gun shows. I haven't gone to a gun show in a few years though.


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## Barrett (Oct 3, 2022)

In Y2K Joe Foss (who lived nearby) called to say he was clearing out his den and asked if I'd like to consider buying something.
Time passed...quickly. I avoided the traffic cops in Scottsdale.
(Didi always said that Joe could pass anything but a gun store or a garage sale. His garage had lots of shotguns.)
He mentioned the last pistol he carried on active diuty as a USAF Reserve BG. Since he'd been a general officer he was able to take the 1911 with him but he'd not shot it in a long long long time.
I heard him rummaging around in the den, admiring the only medal he displayed--his DFC--until he emerged. "I found it!"
My heard sank--Joe had kept it in a GI holster for decades.
But the 1911A1 was in excellent shape--a mid-war Colt--apparently an armory refinish with a pristine bore.
I wrote a check and adjourned to the range.
Last time I shot the gun was on Joe's 100th birthday (he died at 86). From 20 yds sitting it tried hard to hold 2 inches with factory ball. Several inches high, tho.
Eventually a dear friend begged and sniveled and pled until I sold him Joe's Pistol because (1) I knew he'd take care of it and (2) then he would leave me alone.

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## Ivan1GFP (Oct 3, 2022)

That pistol from Joe Foss sounds like a really great item. I would never have sought out such a thing but if I had it, I also would not have sold it. Seems like it would have been a nice way to remember a friend.

My approach to 1911s is more as a shooter and amateur gunsmith. I don't own anything that is all that collectible though just about every gun is an excellent shooter. If it isn't, I mess with it until it is. Often that means swapping out major pieces such as the barrel. I am not sure I could resist tuning a valuable collectible and the older guns may not hold up as well to prolonged use as the modern stuff will.

When the 1911 was first being tested before adoption, 6000 rounds was considered a "lifetime" of use. it was the only pistol in the tests that actually survived the full 6000 round test without major parts failure. The slides often would crack in use because they were not hardened. After a time, the slides were "spot hardened" and survived a bit longer before breakage but it was some time after WW2 before 1911 slides were fully hardened to modern standards. By that time, the production for the US Military had ended.


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## wlewisiii (Nov 10, 2022)

Put down 50% this morning on this classic German pistol.

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## manta22 (Nov 10, 2022)

wlewisiii said:


> Put down 50% this morning on this classic German pistol.
> 
> View attachment 693902


I bought a WW II Walther PP in a Birmingham, AL second-hand shop. If I pulled the trigger V-e-r-y slowly it would fire full auto.

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## GrauGeist (Nov 10, 2022)

I used to have a vintage Colt 1911A that did that.
The sear was worn to the point that it would cycle until either letting off the trigger quickly or a soft strike by the firing pin failed to discharge the round.

I retired it after that.

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## javlin (Nov 10, 2022)

I pulled the trigger on a few this year after a three year break.I acquired a Spanish Fr-8,VZ-24 and a 9mm Mp-40 auction house pics on the VZ-24.I have shot the Fr-8 people complain of a kick she's a sweetheart as for the other two not yet.

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## wlewisiii (Nov 10, 2022)

I have a nice 7x57 deer carbine that was a Brazilian VZ24 bought by anti-government rebels but intercepted by the said government and used by the police for decades. The barrel was a sewer, and the stock was worse, but the action was in excellent condition. So I put a 19" barrel on it, had it parkerized, iron sights put on and a Boyd's stock that I have put several coats of tung oil on. It's the finest Mauser action I've ever handled. I expect you'll love yours.

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## javlin (Nov 10, 2022)

wlewisiii said:


> It's the finest Mauser action I've ever handled. I expect you'll love yours.


This is my second I just passed to my Son my first one in the first five probably of my collection last Christmas as a gift.That VZ-24 was matching down to the stock pre-war smooth bolt he hits targets out to 300yds with iron sites he says the AR boys are amazed.He is stationed at Hollerman AFB in NM.

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## wlewisiii (Dec 7, 2022)

Brought home a new to me carry pistol. US made by Ranger for Interarms, not sure of the date, probably early 90's. The IWB holster is by Azula. I've come to like their products - inexpensive and high quality. 

Now to find some time for the range...

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## manta22 (Dec 7, 2022)

wlewisiii said:


> Brought home a new to me carry pistol. US made by Ranger for Interarms, not sure of the date, probably early 90's. The IWB holster is by Azula. I've come to like their products - inexpensive and high quality.
> 
> Now to find some time for the range...
> 
> ...


Looks a bit similar to a Walther PP.


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## wlewisiii (Dec 7, 2022)

manta22 said:


> Looks a bit similar to a Walther PP.


PPK/s - the US version made because of the GCA68. PP frame, PPK barrel and slide.


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## Frog (Dec 7, 2022)

.32 or .380 ?


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## wlewisiii (Dec 7, 2022)

.380

I finally found a good serial number list - it's from Jan/Feb 1985. Being that old, I'll order a new recoil spring for it as well as getting some walnut grip panels that will look a bit better than the hard rubber Pachmayrs on it.


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## Ivan1GFP (Dec 7, 2022)

wlewisiii said:


> .380
> 
> I finally found a good serial number list - it's from Jan/Feb 1985. Being that old, I'll order a new recoil spring for it as well as getting some walnut grip panels that will look a bit better than the hard rubber Pachmayrs on it.



Those look a lot more like the soft rubber Pachmayrs.
Mine came with hard plastic grip panels from the factory. The gun is amazingly accurate with the proper ammunition. The first set of reloads I made up for it was shooting under 1.5 inches at 25 yards. The Hansen (PPU) ammunition that those cases came from would not hold a 1 foot group though.
At one point, I used mine for a concealed carry gun.

- Ivan.

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## special ed (Dec 7, 2022)

The Pachmayrs will provide a better no slip grip.

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## wlewisiii (Dec 7, 2022)

special ed said:


> The Pachmayrs will provide a better no slip grip.


I like having both options. The Pachmayrs are good for carry but it's nice to have walnut when you want to dress it up

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## Ivan1GFP (Dec 9, 2022)

My gun is stainless and when it was new, the bottom edge of the slide was quite sharp. It would slice up the web of my hand when it recoiled. I eventually took a fine file and took the edge off the corner of the slide and it was no longer a problem.

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## ARTESH (Dec 9, 2022)

do you own knives / blades?

I've posted some pics of my little (!) Friends, awhile back ... I'll post more soon!


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## wlewisiii (Dec 9, 2022)

This is one of mine. 

Perhaps a sword pistol & rifle combo?

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## manta22 (Dec 9, 2022)

Among others... Randall #1, Randall #2, & CZ-85.

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## Ivan1GFP (Dec 19, 2022)

ARTESH said:


> do you own knives / blades?
> 
> I've posted some pics of my little (!) Friends, awhile back ... I'll post more soon!



Quite a few depending on the category.
Plenty of folding knives. Enough that I have lost count.
A couple fixed blade knives.
A few bayonets to go with various rifles that I own. A couple are spikes (No.4 Lee Enfield) so perhaps they don't really count.
A pretty nice GI Machete.
Three Katana if the broken one is not counted.

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## ARTESH (Dec 19, 2022)

wlewisiii said:


> Perhaps a sword pistol & rifle combo?
> 
> View attachment 697940


Remainder of that British (?) Officer on D-Day...

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## Frog (Dec 19, 2022)

ARTESH said:


> Remainder of that British (?) Officer on D-Day...



It was Major Jack Churchill, 2 of IC of n° 3 Commando during operation Archery at Vagsoy (dec 27, 1941) and later leading n° 2 Commando in Italy (sword and archery).

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## ARTESH (Dec 19, 2022)

Frog said:


> It was Major Jack Churchill, 2 of IC of n° 3 Commando during operation Archery at Vagsoy (dec 27, 1941) and later leading n° 2 Commando in Italy (sword and archery).


Thank you for correction, dear Frog.


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## AL90 (Dec 23, 2022)

ARTESH said:


> Thank you for correction, dear Frog.


Thought you may like this, photo of "Mad Jack" Churchill leading his men ashore carrying his sword at the Combined Arms Training Establishment Inveraray, Scotland in October 1941. Inveraray is very near to where I live. Seemingly "Mad Jack" was the last person to kill an enemy soldier with a longbow during D-Day. Somewhere I have a photo of him with sword in one hand and revolver in the other.

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## SaparotRob (Dec 23, 2022)

Hi AL90. Great picture!


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## Frog (Dec 23, 2022)

AL90 said:


> Thought you may like this, photo of "Mad Jack" Churchill leading his men ashore carrying his sword at the Combined Arms Training Establishment Inveraray, Scotland in October 1941. Inveraray is very near to where I live. Seemingly "Mad Jack" was the last person to kill an enemy soldier with a longbow during D-Day. Somewhere I have a photo of him with sword in one hand and revolver in the other.



He never served in Normandy, but in Sicily, Italy and Yugoslavia where he was wounded, captured, and later illegally deported to Orianenburg, from where he escaped, was recaptured and re-escaped again.
The anecdote when he killed a German with a longbow was in France on may 27, 1940.

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