# Virginia governor closes gun loophole...



## Lucky13 (Apr 30, 2007)

By BOB LEWIS, Associated Press Writer 
28 minutes ago



RICHMOND, Va. - The governor on Monday closed the loophole in state law that allowed the Virginia Tech gunman to pass a federal background check and buy the weapons used in the massacre. 

Gov. Timothy M. Kaine issued an executive order requiring that a database of people banned from buying guns include anyone who is found to be dangerous and ordered to undergo involuntary mental health treatment.

Seung-Hui Cho had been ordered to undergo psychiatric counseling after a judge ruled that he was a danger to himself.

But because Cho was treated as an outpatient and never committed to a mental health hospital, the court's decision was not entered into the database that gun dealers must check before selling a weapon.

The database "should include any determination that someone is mentally ill and so dangerous to himself or others as to warrant involuntary treatment," Kaine said in a statement.

Cho, a 23-year-old Virginia Tech senior described as a troubled loner, bought his guns legally through gun shops. He gunned down 32 people in a residence hall and a classroom building before killing himself.

No motive has been established for his rampage.


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## Maharg (May 1, 2007)

Good. A bit late though.


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## timshatz (May 1, 2007)

Normally not a great fan of gun control laws but in this case, it has to be done. More than just good reason.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 1, 2007)

I think it is funny. The rest of the world talks **** about the US gun control laws and say that they dont have problems as the US does. That is bullshit. Just in Germany here alone in a weeks time period there have been 4 high profile slaying by gunmen.

About an hour from here, 2 police were shot in the head by and unknown shooter who has now disappeared. Then 3 days later a man killed his wife and then shot himself on an open street in front of there kids. Yeah gun control works. People are not allowed to have guns like this here, but people are still getting shot! 

What does that tell you? That the people get the guns illegally and that is what happens in the US as well. So give it up people!


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## Matt308 (May 1, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> What does that tell you? That the people get the guns illegally and that is what happens in the US as well. So give it up people!



C'mon Adler. Your logic is flawed. The world knows that if the US banned guns, then the evil baddies worldwide would not be able to import illegal guns into their own countries. It's Bush's fault.

What I find so ironic about claiming that the VA Governor has accomplished such good, is that there already was a law on on the VA books that stated during the background check that mental illness was an immediate disqualifier for obtaining a gun. The law was already on the books, they state was not complying with its own damn law. Sounds like a lawsuit to me.


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## mkloby (May 1, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> C'mon Adler. Your logic is flawed. The world knows that if the US banned guns, then the evil baddies worldwide would not be able to import illegal guns into their own countries. It's Bush's fault.
> 
> What I find so ironic about claiming that the VA Governor has accomplished such good, is that there already was a law on on the VA books that stated during the background check that mental illness was an immediate disqualifier for obtaining a gun. The law was already on the books, they state was not complying with its own damn law. Sounds like a lawsuit to me.



Matt, are suggesting possible breakdowns in the bureaucracies that are the federal, state, and local governments???


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 2, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> It's Bush's fault.



Oh yeah, ofcourse I forgot! He is the cause of global warming and all of the worlds problems too.


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## Negative Creep (May 2, 2007)

Guns are all but impossible to own legally here, yet gun crime still occurs. Criminalise guns and the only ones with the guns will be the criminals. If someone really wants a firearm, then laws or restrictions will not stop them, they will just buy one illegally


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 2, 2007)

Bingo! And that is what we have been saying all the time, but the people outside of the US seem to know better how to mannage the laws of the US.


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## Negative Creep (May 2, 2007)

Isn't Switzerland pretty much the only European country where guns are readily available?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 2, 2007)

Thats because everyone is technically in the military. My soon to be brother in law is no longer on active duty but he is required by law to be in the reserves and his equipment and rifle is at his house.


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## Matt308 (May 2, 2007)

...and its full auto.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 2, 2007)

I dont know what gun he has...

Its Bush's fault though!


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## Negative Creep (May 2, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I dont know what gun he has...
> 
> Its Bush's fault though!



And climate change


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## Matt308 (May 2, 2007)

That reminds me of whiney liberals... is Civvetone coming back or is he gone for good. I couldn't figure out whether he was just incommunicado for a week and was calling it quits.


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## trackend (May 2, 2007)

Gun Deaths and Injury • In 2004, 29,569 people in the United States died from firearm-related deaths – 
11,624 (39%) of those were murder
16,750 (57%) were suicides; 
649 (2.2%) were accidents;
and in 235 (.8%) the intent was unknown. [5]
In comparison, 
• In 2004, firearms were used to murder 56 people in Australia, 184 people in Canada, 73 people in England and Wales, 5 people in New Zealand, and 37 people in Sweden.[8] 

I'm not sure how accurate these figures are and it did'nt cover europe as a whole but I believe it is around 14 deaths per 100,000 in the US and 3-4 per 100,000 in europe


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## Matt308 (May 2, 2007)

Here is a more telling statistic on Murders Per Capita from UN 1998-2000:

4 per 100,000 in US
1.0 - 1.5 per 100,000 in Western Europe and Canada
______________________________________________

#1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people 
#2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people 
#3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people 
#4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people 
#5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people 
#6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people 
#7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people 
#8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people 
#9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people 
#10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people 
#11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people 
#12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people 
#13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people 
#14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people 
#15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people 
#16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people 
#17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people 
#18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people 
#19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people 
#20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people 
#21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people 
#22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people 
#23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people 
#24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people 
#25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people 
#26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people 
#27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people 
#28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people 
#29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people 
#30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people 
#31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people 
#32 Romania: 0.0250784 per 1,000 people 
#33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people 
#34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people 
#35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0229829 per 1,000 people 
#36 Mauritius: 0.021121 per 1,000 people 
#37 Hungary: 0.0204857 per 1,000 people 
#38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people 
#39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people 
#40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people 
#41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people 
#42 Iceland: 0.0168499 per 1,000 people 
#43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people 
#44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people 
#45 Chile: 0.014705 per 1,000 people 
#46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people 
#47 Italy: 0.0128393 per 1,000 people 
#48 Spain: 0.0122456 per 1,000 people 
#49 Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people 
#50 Tunisia: 0.0112159 per 1,000 people 
#51 Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people 
#52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people 
#53 Denmark: 0.0106775 per 1,000 people 
#54 Norway: 0.0106684 per 1,000 people 
#55 Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people 
#56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people 
#57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people 
#58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people 
#59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people 
#60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people 
#61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people 
#62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people


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## Matt308 (May 2, 2007)

And here is manslaughter per capita:

[The unlawful killing of another without intent to kill; either voluntary (upon a sudden impulse); or involuntary (during the commission of an unlawful act not ordinarily expected to result in great bodily harm).]

Note that while numerous Western European countries and Austrailia, New Zealand and Japan are included in the top 43, the US is not even listed.
__________________________________________________
#1 South Africa: 0.247181 per 1,000 people 
#2 Mexico: 0.17057 per 1,000 people 
#3 Costa Rica: 0.144422 per 1,000 people 
#4 Zimbabwe: 0.0796809 per 1,000 people 
#5 Korea, South: 0.0768282 per 1,000 people 
#6 Romania: 0.0571429 per 1,000 people 
#7 Italy: 0.0322014 per 1,000 people 
#8 Turkey: 0.0312226 per 1,000 people 
#9 Estonia: 0.0202551 per 1,000 people 
#10 Bulgaria: 0.0150336 per 1,000 people 
#11 Australia: 0.0147337 per 1,000 people 
#12 Russia: 0.011672 per 1,000 people 
#13 Lithuania: 0.0105644 per 1,000 people 
#14 Latvia: 0.0100437 per 1,000 people 
#15 Portugal: 0.00936968 per 1,000 people 
#16 Norway: 0.00892663 per 1,000 people 
#17 Georgia: 0.00855249 per 1,000 people 
#18 Belarus: 0.00805825 per 1,000 people 
#19 Czech Republic: 0.00781174 per 1,000 people 
#20 Ukraine: 0.00712811 per 1,000 people 
#21 Qatar: 0.00695208 per 1,000 people 
#22 Yemen: 0.00622377 per 1,000 people 
#23 Tunisia: 0.00575682 per 1,000 people 
#24 Finland: 0.0053609 per 1,000 people 
#25 Poland: 0.00492764 per 1,000 people 
#26 Moldova: 0.0047138 per 1,000 people 
#27 Japan: 0.00401045 per 1,000 people 
#28 Denmark: 0.00386598 per 1,000 people 
#29 India: 0.00362134 per 1,000 people 
#30 Thailand: 0.00358334 per 1,000 people 
#31 Zambia: 0.00275262 per 1,000 people 
#32 New Zealand: 0.00247831 per 1,000 people 
#33 Spain: 0.00235492 per 1,000 people 
#34 Ireland: 0.00224104 per 1,000 people 
#35 Hungary: 0.00209853 per 1,000 people 
#36 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.00195599 per 1,000 people 
#37 Greece: 0.00178103 per 1,000 people 
#38 Indonesia: 0.00173572 per 1,000 people 
#39 Mauritius: 0.0016247 per 1,000 people 
#40 Canada: 0.00158512 per 1,000 people 
#41 Uruguay: 0.0014637 per 1,000 people 
#42 Saudi Arabia: 0.00075706 per 1,000 people 
#43 Hong Kong: 0.000724743 per 1,000 people


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## Matt308 (May 2, 2007)

And here are the assaults per capita;

[Note that the legal definition of assault varies between jurisdictions. Thus "assault" in the US and many western countries can be verbal alone.]
____________________________________________
#1 South Africa: 12.0752 per 1,000 people 
#2 Montserrat: 10.2773 per 1,000 people 
#3 Mauritius: 8.76036 per 1,000 people 
#4 Seychelles: 8.62196 per 1,000 people 
#5 Zimbabwe: 7.6525 per 1,000 people 
#6 United States: 7.56923 per 1,000 people 
#7 New Zealand: 7.47881 per 1,000 people 
#8 United Kingdom: 7.45959 per 1,000 people 
#9 Canada: 7.11834 per 1,000 people 
#10 Australia: 7.02459 per 1,000 people 
#11 Finland: 5.32644 per 1,000 people 
#12 Iceland: 4.66406 per 1,000 people 
#13 Tunisia: 4.02561 per 1,000 people 
#14 Jamaica: 3.95943 per 1,000 people 
#15 Portugal: 3.59445 per 1,000 people 
#16 Chile: 3.32476 per 1,000 people 
#17 Norway: 3.2064 per 1,000 people 
#18 Netherlands: 2.68964 per 1,000 people 
#19 Ireland: 2.47037 per 1,000 people 
#20 Mexico: 2.40275 per 1,000 people 
#21 Spain: 2.24221 per 1,000 people 
#22 Czech Republic: 2.14803 per 1,000 people 
#23 Zambia: 1.96475 per 1,000 people 
#24 Denmark: 1.80339 per 1,000 people 
#25 France: 1.75554 per 1,000 people 
#26 Germany: 1.4183 per 1,000 people 
#27 Uruguay: 1.34192 per 1,000 people 
#28 Hungary: 1.11532 per 1,000 people 
#29 Slovenia: 1.09796 per 1,000 people 
#30 Hong Kong: 1.07987 per 1,000 people 
#31 Dominica: 1.01407 per 1,000 people 
#32 Poland: 0.850459 per 1,000 people 
#33 Turkey: 0.76779 per 1,000 people 
#34 Slovakia: 0.686982 per 1,000 people 
#35 Colombia: 0.587116 per 1,000 people 
#36 Belarus: 0.543689 per 1,000 people 
#37 Italy: 0.500284 per 1,000 people 
#38 Romania: 0.419615 per 1,000 people 
#39 Bulgaria: 0.41396 per 1,000 people 
#40 Qatar: 0.378888 per 1,000 people 
#41 Latvia: 0.360262 per 1,000 people 
#42 Estonia: 0.345086 per 1,000 people 
#43 Japan: 0.339272 per 1,000 people 
#44 Thailand: 0.313542 per 1,000 people 
#45 Greece: 0.311399 per 1,000 people 
#46 Korea, South: 0.30684 per 1,000 people 
#47 Moldova: 0.272952 per 1,000 people 
#48 Papua New Guinea: 0.243643 per 1,000 people 
#49 India: 0.218755 per 1,000 people 
#50 Costa Rica: 0.178287 per 1,000 people 
#51 Saudi Arabia: 0.178098 per 1,000 people 
#52 Ukraine: 0.112007 per 1,000 people 
#53 Georgia: 0.10434 per 1,000 people 
#54 Indonesia: 0.0767107 per 1,000 people 
#55 Yemen: 0.0489699 per 1,000 people 
#56 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0404197 per 1,000 people 
#57 Azerbaijan: 0.0252781 per 1,000 people


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## Matt308 (May 2, 2007)

And rapes per capita:
__________________________________________
#1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people 
#2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people 
#3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people 
#4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people 
#5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people 
#6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people 
#7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people 
#8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people 
#9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people 
#10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people 
#11 Papua New Guinea: 0.233544 per 1,000 people 
#12 New Zealand: 0.213383 per 1,000 people 
#13 United Kingdom: 0.142172 per 1,000 people 
#14 Spain: 0.140403 per 1,000 people 
#15 France: 0.139442 per 1,000 people 
#16 Korea, South: 0.12621 per 1,000 people 
#17 Mexico: 0.122981 per 1,000 people 
#18 Norway: 0.120836 per 1,000 people 
#19 Costa Rica: 0.118277 per 1,000 people 
#20 Venezuela: 0.115507 per 1,000 people 
#21 Finland: 0.110856 per 1,000 people 
#22 Netherlands: 0.100445 per 1,000 people 
#23 Denmark: 0.0914948 per 1,000 people 
#24 Germany: 0.0909731 per 1,000 people 
#25 Bulgaria: 0.0795973 per 1,000 people 
#26 Chile: 0.0782179 per 1,000 people 
#27 Thailand: 0.0626305 per 1,000 people 
#28 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0623785 per 1,000 people 
#29 Poland: 0.062218 per 1,000 people 
#30 Sri Lanka: 0.0599053 per 1,000 people 
#31 Hungary: 0.0588588 per 1,000 people 
#32 Estonia: 0.0547637 per 1,000 people 
#33 Ireland: 0.0542829 per 1,000 people 
#34 Switzerland: 0.0539458 per 1,000 people 
#35 Belarus: 0.0514563 per 1,000 people 
#36 Uruguay: 0.0512295 per 1,000 people 
#37 Lithuania: 0.0508757 per 1,000 people 
#38 Malaysia: 0.0505156 per 1,000 people 
#39 Romania: 0.0497089 per 1,000 people 
#40 Czech Republic: 0.0488234 per 1,000 people 
#41 Russia: 0.0486543 per 1,000 people 
#42 Latvia: 0.0454148 per 1,000 people 
#43 Moldova: 0.0448934 per 1,000 people 
#44 Colombia: 0.0433254 per 1,000 people 
#45 Slovenia: 0.0427648 per 1,000 people 
#46 Italy: 0.0402045 per 1,000 people 
#47 Portugal: 0.0364376 per 1,000 people 
#48 Tunisia: 0.0331514 per 1,000 people 
#49 Zambia: 0.0266383 per 1,000 people 
#50 Ukraine: 0.0244909 per 1,000 people 
#51 Slovakia: 0.0237525 per 1,000 people 
#52 Mauritius: 0.0219334 per 1,000 people 
#53 Turkey: 0.0180876 per 1,000 people 
#54 Japan: 0.017737 per 1,000 people 
#55 Hong Kong: 0.0150746 per 1,000 people 
#56 India: 0.0143187 per 1,000 people 
#57 Qatar: 0.0139042 per 1,000 people 
#58 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0132029 per 1,000 people 
#59 Greece: 0.0106862 per 1,000 people 
#60 Georgia: 0.0100492 per 1,000 people 
#61 Armenia: 0.00938652 per 1,000 people 
#62 Indonesia: 0.00567003 per 1,000 people 
#63 Yemen: 0.0038597 per 1,000 people 
#64 Azerbaijan: 0.00379171 per 1,000 people 
#65 Saudi Arabia: 0.00329321 per 1,000 people


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## Matt308 (May 2, 2007)

And robberies per capita:

[The taking, or attempting to take, anything of value from the care, custody, or control of another person or persons by force or threat of force or violence]
________________________________________________
#1 Spain: 12.3265 per 1,000 people 
#2 Chile: 6.92522 per 1,000 people 
#3 Costa Rica: 4.79109 per 1,000 people 
#4 South Africa: 4.4434 per 1,000 people 
#5 Estonia: 3.56639 per 1,000 people 
#6 Mexico: 2.02555 per 1,000 people 
#7 Portugal: 1.6237 per 1,000 people 
#8 United Kingdom: 1.57433 per 1,000 people 
#9 Uruguay: 1.57114 per 1,000 people 
#10 Poland: 1.38838 per 1,000 people 
#11 United States: 1.38527 per 1,000 people 
#12 Latvia: 1.37991 per 1,000 people 
#13 Venezuela: 1.37833 per 1,000 people 
#14 Lithuania: 1.21601 per 1,000 people 
#15 Australia: 1.16048 per 1,000 people 
#16 Netherlands: 1.13549 per 1,000 people 
#17 Zimbabwe: 0.974838 per 1,000 people 
#18 Mauritius: 0.947197 per 1,000 people 
#19 Russia: 0.923114 per 1,000 people 
#20 Jamaica: 0.851974 per 1,000 people 
#21 Dominica: 0.82574 per 1,000 people 
#22 Canada: 0.823411 per 1,000 people 
#23 Germany: 0.720773 per 1,000 people 
#24 Seychelles: 0.652806 per 1,000 people 
#25 Italy: 0.649295 per 1,000 people 
#26 Malaysia: 0.613535 per 1,000 people 
#27 Papua New Guinea: 0.612083 per 1,000 people 
#28 Ireland: 0.601096 per 1,000 people 
#29 Denmark: 0.580265 per 1,000 people 
#30 Bulgaria: 0.572617 per 1,000 people 
#31 Colombia: 0.571239 per 1,000 people 
#32 Moldova: 0.569921 per 1,000 people 
#33 Belarus: 0.550291 per 1,000 people 
#34 Finland: 0.497798 per 1,000 people 
#35 Hong Kong: 0.497608 per 1,000 people 
#36 Ukraine: 0.455965 per 1,000 people 
#37 New Zealand: 0.439901 per 1,000 people 
#38 France: 0.400686 per 1,000 people 
#39 Czech Republic: 0.400254 per 1,000 people 
#40 Norway: 0.387764 per 1,000 people 
#41 Hungary: 0.349156 per 1,000 people 
#42 Kyrgyzstan: 0.290906 per 1,000 people 
#43 Switzerland: 0.290827 per 1,000 people 
#44 Indonesia: 0.253168 per 1,000 people 
#45 Zambia: 0.239655 per 1,000 people 
#46 Slovenia: 0.235704 per 1,000 people 
#47 Slovakia: 0.232738 per 1,000 people 
#48 Sri Lanka: 0.231597 per 1,000 people 
#49 Romania: 0.185535 per 1,000 people 
#50 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.144743 per 1,000 people 
#51 Iceland: 0.11458 per 1,000 people 
#52 Tunisia: 0.0950869 per 1,000 people 
#53 Korea, South: 0.093008 per 1,000 people 
#54 Greece: 0.078084 per 1,000 people 
#55 Georgia: 0.0718409 per 1,000 people 
#56 Armenia: 0.0543077 per 1,000 people 
#57 Japan: 0.040599 per 1,000 people 
#58 India: 0.0263001 per 1,000 people 
#59 Turkey: 0.0234421 per 1,000 people 
#60 Saudi Arabia: 0.0226361 per 1,000 people 
#61 Azerbaijan: 0.0183266 per 1,000 people 
#62 Thailand: 0.0121522 per 1,000 people 
#63 Yemen: 0.00844309 per 1,000 people 
#64 Qatar: 0.00463472 per 1,000 people


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## Matt308 (May 2, 2007)

And crime per capita:

[Note that crime statistics are better indicators of the presence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual crime prevalence]
__________________________________________
#1 Dominica: 113.822 per 1,000 people 
#2 New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people 
#3 Finland: 101.526 per 1,000 people 
#4 Denmark: 92.8277 per 1,000 people 
#5 Chile: 88.226 per 1,000 people 
#6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people 
#7 Montserrat: 80.3982 per 1,000 people 
#8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people 
#9 Netherlands: 79.5779 per 1,000 people 
#10 South Africa: 77.1862 per 1,000 people 
#11 Germany: 75.9996 per 1,000 people 
#12 Canada: 75.4921 per 1,000 people 
#13 Norway: 71.8639 per 1,000 people 
#14 France: 62.1843 per 1,000 people 
#15 Seychelles: 52.9265 per 1,000 people 
#16 Hungary: 44.9763 per 1,000 people 
#17 Estonia: 43.3601 per 1,000 people 
#18 Czech Republic: 38.2257 per 1,000 people 
#19 Italy: 37.9633 per 1,000 people 
#20 Switzerland: 36.1864 per 1,000 people 
#21 Portugal: 34.3833 per 1,000 people 
#22 Slovenia: 33.6236 per 1,000 people 
#23 Poland: 32.8573 per 1,000 people 
#24 Korea, South: 31.7267 per 1,000 people 
#25 Mauritius: 29.1982 per 1,000 people 
#26 Zimbabwe: 28.8753 per 1,000 people 
#27 Lithuania: 22.8996 per 1,000 people 
#28 Spain: 22.8867 per 1,000 people 
#29 Latvia: 21.921 per 1,000 people 
#30 Uruguay: 21.7017 per 1,000 people 
#31 Russia: 20.5855 per 1,000 people 
#32 Ireland: 20.2376 per 1,000 people 
#33 Bulgaria: 19.9886 per 1,000 people 
#34 Japan: 19.177 per 1,000 people 
#35 Romania: 16.4812 per 1,000 people 
#36 Slovakia: 16.3537 per 1,000 people 
#37 Jamaica: 14.3231 per 1,000 people 
#38 Belarus: 13.1592 per 1,000 people 
#39 Mexico: 12.8406 per 1,000 people 
#40 Tunisia: 12.5634 per 1,000 people 
#41 Costa Rica: 11.9788 per 1,000 people 
#42 Ukraine: 11.7793 per 1,000 people 
#43 Hong Kong: 11.6817 per 1,000 people 
#44 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 9.689 per 1,000 people 
#45 Greece: 9.6347 per 1,000 people 
#46 Venezuela: 9.307 per 1,000 people 
#47 Thailand: 8.80422 per 1,000 people 
#48 Moldova: 8.58967 per 1,000 people 
#49 Kyrgyzstan: 7.50486 per 1,000 people 
#50 Malaysia: 6.97921 per 1,000 people 
#51 Qatar: 6.76437 per 1,000 people 
#52 Zambia: 5.27668 per 1,000 people 
#53 Colombia: 4.98654 per 1,000 people 
#54 Turkey: 4.11252 per 1,000 people 
#55 Armenia: 4.03889 per 1,000 people 
#56 Georgia: 3.21338 per 1,000 people 
#57 Papua New Guinea: 2.39711 per 1,000 people 
#58 Azerbaijan: 1.76416 per 1,000 people 
#59 India: 1.63352 per 1,000 people 
#60 Yemen: 1.16109 per 1,000 people


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## Matt308 (May 2, 2007)

And just for grins, police per capita:

[Interesting to think that with Italy having 5 police per 1,000, that in a typical highschool in the US with 1500 students, that would mean 7 or 8 policemen on campus! That would be unheard of!!!] 
_______________________________________
#1 Montserrat: 7.81501 per 1,000 people 
#2 Mauritius: 7.28432 per 1,000 people 
#3 Dominica: 6.40311 per 1,000 people 
#4 Italy: 5.55565 per 1,000 people 
#5 Hong Kong: 4.79374 per 1,000 people 
#6 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 4.7868 per 1,000 people 
#7 Portugal: 4.64878 per 1,000 people 
#8 Kazakhstan: 4.54998 per 1,000 people 
#9 Latvia: 4.51878 per 1,000 people 
#10 Czech Republic: 4.47613 per 1,000 people 
#11 Slovakia: 3.72086 per 1,000 people 
#12 Lithuania: 3.53934 per 1,000 people 
#13 Malaysia: 3.43936 per 1,000 people 
#14 Thailand: 3.35665 per 1,000 people 
#15 Kyrgyzstan: 3.25049 per 1,000 people 
#16 Slovenia: 3.14023 per 1,000 people 
#17 Moldova: 3.01481 per 1,000 people 
#18 Germany: 2.91153 per 1,000 people 
#19 Ireland: 2.8989 per 1,000 people 
#20 Hungary: 2.88528 per 1,000 people 
#21 Spain: 2.86696 per 1,000 people 
#22 South Africa: 2.7668 per 1,000 people 
#23 Estonia: 2.72543 per 1,000 people 
#24 Poland: 2.61367 per 1,000 people 
#25 Jamaica: 2.57054 per 1,000 people 
#26 Georgia: 2.46034 per 1,000 people 
#27 Norway: 2.42412 per 1,000 people 
#28 Turkey: 2.38057 per 1,000 people 
#29 Iceland: 2.24441 per 1,000 people 
#30 Romania: 2.18728 per 1,000 people 
#31 Colombia: 2.12215 per 1,000 people 
#32 Australia: 2.09293 per 1,000 people 
#33 France: 2.049 per 1,000 people 
#34 United Kingdom: 2.04871 per 1,000 people 
#35 Switzerland: 1.93617 per 1,000 people 
#36 Netherlands: 1.92448 per 1,000 people 
#37 Denmark: 1.91716 per 1,000 people 
#38 Chile: 1.85583 per 1,000 people 
#39 Korea, South: 1.85461 per 1,000 people 
#40 Japan: 1.81103 per 1,000 people 
#41 Sri Lanka: 1.72484 per 1,000 people 
#42 Canada: 1.70767 per 1,000 people 
#43 Zimbabwe: 1.68859 per 1,000 people 
#44 Finland: 1.56347 per 1,000 people 
#45 Zambia: 1.13674 per 1,000 people 
#46 Papua New Guinea: 0.985032 per 1,000 people 
#47 India: 0.956207 per 1,000 people 
#48 Costa Rica: 0.370767 per 1,000 people


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 2, 2007)

The US may have more gun related violence but in all those other countries they use knives, bats, sticks, and whatever else. I think the rest of the world should ban knives and bats and sticks.

See how stupid this is.


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## Matt308 (May 2, 2007)

You know two things come to mind when you read these statistics.

1) Whether the murder/homicide/manslaughter rates are artificially inflated by criminal-on-criminal acts, and;

2) Whether the legal systems in individual countries operate with dissimilar justice systems, legal definitions, common reporting by victims and unique customs that impact all of the above.

I bet if you really did your homework that the actual comparisons between dissimilar countries is nothing more than a vague benchmark and is really statistically meaningless.


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## trackend (May 2, 2007)

I wondered how long it would take for a reply to that post, 22 minutes . Not bad


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## Matt308 (May 2, 2007)




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## trackend (May 3, 2007)




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## Matt308 (May 7, 2007)

I think this says it all...


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## Clave (May 9, 2007)

I'd like to see the stats of legal vs illegal firearm homicides...

I don't think America has anything to lose by _trying_ gun control.

If take as many guns as possible out of circulation, it will have an effect...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 9, 2007)

Clave said:


> I'd like to see the stats of legal vs illegal firearm homicides...
> 
> I don't think America has anything to lose by _trying_ gun control.
> 
> If take as many guns as possible out of circulation, it will have an effect...




No, because then the decent people (which is the majority of the country, even though foriegners choose not to believe so  ) should not have to give up there rights to own firearms.

I would also like to state again, that the US does have fire arm controls set in place....

So does every other country in the world and they still have gun homicides too!


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## FLYBOYJ (May 9, 2007)

Clave said:


> I'd like to see the stats of legal vs illegal firearm homicides...
> 
> I don't think America has anything to lose by _trying_ gun control.
> 
> If take as many guns as possible out of circulation, it will have an effect...



America already has gun control laws. There's a background check for every gun purchase (as shown in this thread, but the system broke down due to the bureaucracy between the state and federal government). In certain states you have to register your guns. In certain states you can't own certain types guns (the so called assault weapon) and in certain cities handguns are prohibited. Does it work? NO. Washington DC - the nation's capital has the strictest gun laws in the country but yet has the highest murder rates.

America doesn't need gun control, it needs criminal control....


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## Clave (May 9, 2007)

Oh there's no doubt about that, I just don't see the actual problem with closing all gun shops and destroying all the guns that are out there...just as an experiment you know...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 9, 2007)

If they are closed how will the normal decent law abiding citizens (which again is the majority of the nation) get there legally owned fire arms that they have the right to own?


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## FLYBOYJ (May 9, 2007)

Clave said:


> Oh there's no doubt about that, I just don't see the actual problem with closing all gun shops and destroying all the guns that are out there...just as an experiment you know...


How are you going to get the illegal guns - those acquired on the black market and used in most of the crimes committed with guns? House to house search? Sounds real democratic to me!


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## Matt308 (May 9, 2007)

Hey Clave. How about banning all art since a few promote racism, hatred and warmongering with their depictions. Lets just start with a moratorium on all art. Ban it all for just a while. An experiment you know. Just to see what happens. See if the bad art stops.

 I thought you were smarter than that...


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## trackend (May 10, 2007)

If the US wants its citizens to own a billion weapons its entirely their choice and nothing to do with other nations 
Like wise if other nations choose not to its their choice


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## Cyrano (May 10, 2007)




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## Clave (May 10, 2007)

I still don't understand...

I'm am not a ****ing Liberal! I am however in favour of _*discussing*_ _ideas_ you know? talking about stuff without people jumping on some 'STFU Liberal!' stereotype..

At the end of the day it's YOU who have the problem, not ME... The amount of gun crime here is a fly speck compared to the USA, so why should I bother?

It's simple - these things, trends, or whatever, pass form country to country, and so a big problem in the USA becomes a minor problem in the UK, and then it escalates...

Soo.. I'll put it another way: How many lives do you _think_ would be saved if you all were prepared to sacrifice your guns?


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2007)

Clave said:


> Soo.. I'll put it another way: How many lives do you _think_ would be saved if you all were prepared to sacrifice your guns?


Ask the criminal who perpetuate those crimes the same question...

You still didn't come up with an answer on how you would get everyone to turn in their guns. Door to door searches? Outdoor disposal canisters? 

Even though the UK has a nano percent of the gun violence we have here, you still have people getting murdered with firearms. Bottom line gun control don't work....

BTW in my city of over 140,000 people there were 3 murders last year. The neighboring town (which is just across the street from me) hasn't has a murder in 10 years. Crime is almost non existent and I would guess 80% of the households in my neighborhood are armed.


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## Clave (May 10, 2007)

Good, we are _discussing_ again now...

So, what is the answer? More police?


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2007)

Clave said:


> Good, we are _discussing_ again now...
> 
> So, what is the answer? More police?



More police may help but believe it or not many here don't like the police and are afraid of the "police state" mentality. It's a matter of the getting the population to respect their neighbors, the local laws and not to be dumbshits but like in any part of the world we have our idiots. In some places in this country firearm ownership is a deterrent and encouraged by local police.

Here's a blog of numerous self defence situations where armed citizens legally defended themselves.

Civilian Gun Self-Defense Blog


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2007)

Clave said:


> At the end of the day it's YOU who have the problem, not ME... The amount of gun crime here is a fly speck compared to the USA, so why should I bother?



Look at your population, look at ours. I promise you, if you had the population that we have you would have the same amount of gun related murder.



Clave said:


> It's simple - these things, trends, or whatever, pass form country to country, and so a big problem in the USA becomes a minor problem in the UK, and then it escalates...



No, dont blame the UKs problems or future problems on the US. That is a poor excuse...


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## Matt308 (May 10, 2007)

What was wrong with my analogy?! My analogy offers a point of discussion. That being if you ban all guns (to include those of law abiding citizens) might you being doing more harm than good? What are the long term results would allowing criminals to remain armed while law abiding citizens are stripped of theirs? And what repercussions might this have upon the citizenry's ability to enforce all the other rights with an oppressive gov't.

Never once did I insult you Clave. You overreacted. You need to get in touch with your masculine side (see, that is an insult).


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## Clave (May 10, 2007)

It's not blame as such, more that stuff migrates: rap, gang culture, carrying weapons, etc. This is not the _fault_ of the US, it's simple 'copycat culture'


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## Clave (May 10, 2007)

Ah well matt, maybe I was just in a bad mood..

And I just want to say at this point, that I don't want to lose _any_ friends over something as simple as a discussion...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2007)

And whos fault is it then ultimatly? The parents of your youth. Where are they to talk and guide your troubled youth. It still can not be pushed onto the US, that is weak and a cop out.

Sorry Clave, I have nothing but respect for you and this does not change that but I think you are misguided in your opinions on some of this.


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## Matt308 (May 10, 2007)

Clave said:


> Ah well matt, maybe I was just in a bad mood..
> 
> And I just want to say at this point, that I don't want to lose _any_ friends over something as simple as a discussion...



Who says you are losing friends? It's all good. Well... except maybe Doug won't talk to me anymore. And civvetone. And...


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## Clave (May 10, 2007)

Of _course_ it's the parents fault, but what parent has complete control of their children?

And I'm _not_, I say again, _not_ blaming the USA for it's culture or 'sub culture' in the case of of gangs and stuff. 

All I am saying is that these things exist and by existing, they are copied over here. 

I can't say why, it's like, I don't know.. McDonalds.. they have spread all over this land, and become part of our culture now. 

The same thing is happening with the 'bad' side too, it's just something that _happens_, not a cause for finger-pointing or shouting..


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## Clave (May 10, 2007)

Actually matt, it was cyrano's picture that pushed me over the edge...


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## Matt308 (May 10, 2007)

Oh. In that case, nevermind. I retract my remorse.


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## Clave (May 10, 2007)

Touché


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2007)

No problem Clave - I think everything is civil.....

Some points here - a lot of the violence is due to the parents and the tolerance they have for some of the culture (gagsta rap, glorification of gangs, etc.) that perpetuates violence. Many of these parents a few years earlier were the same thugs we're talking about and maybe still are!

It's funny, ask a "minority" kid about gangstas, rap, or gangbangin, or violent video games and they are all experts, ask them who was the first "minority" astronaut (in conjunction with their ethnic background) and you'll get a blank stare. The same if you ask about a Nobel Prize winner, a decorated soldier or inventor. Being a "banger" is just an easy way out to be cool and it provides a level of acceptance that is lacking in their normal family.


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## trackend (May 10, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Look at your population, look at ours. I promise you, if you had the population that we have you would have the same amount of gun related murder.
> 
> No, dont blame the UKs problems or future problems on the US. That is a poor excuse...



Im not sure on that Adler, I think the UK is around 60million people with roughly750 murders annually. 
The US is around 300million with roughly 15000 murders would that not mean if the UK had the same populace it would have around 3750 murders or am I being a bit simplistic in that view ?

But I definately agree with you that the UK's problems or those to come are nothing to do with the US. no one is forced to copy or follow anything the states does (other than of course some finacial directions which is an effect of it being by far the biggest economy in the world )


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## Clave (May 10, 2007)

It is getting messed up here, and a lot of that comes from the East, in small amounts, but it does come: Albanian gangs, Chinese Triads, Indian and Pakistani drug barons, there's all sorts of things happening, but it IS a very small minority...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2007)

Clave said:


> I can't say why, it's like, I don't know.. McDonalds.. they have spread all over this land, and become part of our culture now.



Actually that is the part that I would be pissed off the most about. I hate fast food. Yeah I eat it sometimes but I hate it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2007)

FLYBOYJ said:


> No problem Clave - I think everything is civil.....
> 
> Some points here - a lot of the violence is due to the parents and the tolerance they have for some of the culture (gagsta rap, glorification of gangs, etc.) that perpetuates violence. Many of these parents a few years earlier were the same thugs we're talking about and maybe still are!
> 
> It's funny, ask a "minority" kid about gangstas, rap, or gangbangin, or violent video games and they are all experts, ask them who was the first "minority" astronaut (in conjunction with their ethnic background) and you'll get a blank stare. The same if you ask about a Nobel Prize winner, a decorated soldier or inventor. Being a "banger" is just an easy way out to be cool and it provides a level of acceptance that is lacking in their normal family.



And that is the truth! But be careful FBJ, you might have Al Sharpton knocking on your door after you posted this...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2007)

trackend said:


> Im not sure on that Adler, I think the UK is around 60million people with roughly750 murders annually.
> The US is around 300million with roughly 15000 murders would that not mean if the UK had the same populace it would have around 3750 murders or am I being a bit simplistic in that view ?



The more populace the more probability of someone turning to crime, therefore it would be more. Atleast I think so.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> And that is the truth! But be careful FBJ, you might have Al Sharpton knocking on your door after you posted this...


WORKS FOR ME!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2007)

We can only hope then!


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## Cyrano (May 10, 2007)




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## trackend (May 10, 2007)

Fair point Adler 
It all gets a bit complicated for me, long as Im not one of the statistics wherever I am. 
Plans afoot for a NY visit later this year to take the missus shopping and see a few shows and sites, by all accounts I believe its now one of the safest cities around.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 10, 2007)

As in all large cities, it depends on where you go. There are good parts of town and there are bad parts of town. There are places you probably should not go into at night. But that is in every large city anywhere in the world.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2007)

Cyrano said:


> For me it's kinda strange to think that people all across America keep loaded guns at hand 24/7, but hey yet again I'm not an American.


I own several guns, I do have one hand gun stored in a safe place and loaded although I know in my current neighborhood I'll probably never need to use it except to shoot a stray coyote (I live close to a wilderness area). I grew up in NYC; never saw that many guns till I moved to Los Angeles. Crime there for a while was out of control and it’s the only city I ever traveled in where (in violation of local concealment laws) I carried my hand gun as in certain places as I feared for my life.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 10, 2007)

trackend said:


> Fair point Adler
> It all gets a bit complicated for me, long as Im not one of the statistics wherever I am.
> Plans afoot for a NY visit later this year to take the missus shopping and see a few shows and sites, by all accounts I believe its now one of the safest cities around.


I remember it as a kid and it really got cleaned up, mainly because of Rudi Giuliani who is now running for president. BTW he is very anti-gun owner.


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## Matt308 (May 10, 2007)

Yeah Track, I don't know about NYC being really safe. Safe-er maybe. But not safe. Hope you enjoy yourself. I personally have no desire to holiday there. You want to see sights without having to travel far? Go to Washington DC. Its all within about a 6 mile radius. More diverse sights, history, museum, food, drinks and entertainment than you can possible see.  Safe? Parts. Others like the Southeast District. You might as well go to South Africa. Dangerous as hell after dark. But then again. No sights there either.


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## Clave (May 11, 2007)

I felt totally safe in NY during the day. At night it was kind of scary, but it was no worse than London... you just get that energy going on when it's busy, and sometimes you just wonder who people are and what they are going to do to _you_...


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## trackend (May 11, 2007)

Done Washington state Matt and the Rockies never DC though and the usual Florida trip not really my scene but the kids liked it. NY I dare say is the same as any large city but its very convenient and I may well be going with some friends they are very religious and want to pray at GZ. My missus is shopping mad and show potty so she catered for as for myself I want to give Central park a look (not at night though) and I just must visit the Grand central,Chrysler and the Empire state. I realize you can get trouble anywhere but generally I'm pretty good at looking after myself , to me the secret is being aware of my surroundings and who is about. Snatchers for example tend to move off if you make it obvious that you know they are there as the element of surprise is lost . If someone pulls a shooter or blade then only an idiot would resist specially if your family is with you but if you carry two wallets one hidden and the other contain a small amount of money and a couple of out of date credit cards and don't wear expensive watches etc most muggers don't want to spend time examining them and will sod off with what they believe is a good haul. 
I caught a pick pocket trying to lift my wifes purse in Barcelona some years ago. I think it was some time before his hand was effective again as I could hear his fingers making some funny noises as I gave him a somewhat firm double handshake he also dropped the purse in the end.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 11, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> Yeah Track, I don't know about NYC being really safe. Safe-er maybe. But not safe. Hope you enjoy yourself. I personally have no desire to holiday there. You want to see sights without having to travel far? Go to Washington DC. Its all within about a 6 mile radius. More diverse sights, history, museum, food, drinks and entertainment than you can possible see. Safe? Parts. Others like the Southeast District. You might as well go to South Africa. Dangerous as hell after dark. But then again. No sights there either.



I loved Washington DC. Me and wife went there after I got out of Iraq and we loved it. Great seafood resteraunts and the Musems are the best in the world!


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## trackend (May 11, 2007)

If I go that way anytime Adler Ill get some tips from you on where to visit.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 11, 2007)

It is worth it, just for the NASM.


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## mkloby (May 11, 2007)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I loved Washington DC. Me and wife went there after I got out of Iraq and we loved it. Great seafood resteraunts and the Musems are the best in the world!



There are A LOT of gays in DC. When we were in Quantico there were whole sections of town we'd avoid because of all the man-on-man action.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 12, 2007)

I dont give a damn if there are gays there or not. That does not make a city bad or not. They can do as they please.

Thats like saying, SF has a lot of gays, I am never going to visit that city. I am secure in my attraction for the vagina and would love to go to SF.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 12, 2007)

I rather live around gays than gang-bangers. As long as they don't approach me, don't do obscene sh*t in public (the same could be said about a heterosexual couple) and keep to them selves, I could care less.


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## Matt308 (May 12, 2007)

I go to DC once a month. I've honestly never noticed a lot of gays. The Marine Barracks are in the SE quadrant of the district. I would have thought they would be in the NW section with all the college kids and money. News to me.


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## Clave (May 12, 2007)

Not that it matters anyway, it's not like 'gayness' is _catching_...


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## Cyrano (May 12, 2007)




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## FLYBOYJ (May 12, 2007)

I totally sympathize with you....


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## Clave (May 12, 2007)

Me too, except I'd like to make it more _personal_, say with a katana or something..


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## Matt308 (May 14, 2007)

It's bad enough to be raped. But to top it off with genital mutilation is subhuman.


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## DOUGRD (May 19, 2007)

Matt308 said:


> Who says you are losing friends? It's all good. Well... except maybe Doug won't talk to me anymore. And civvetone. And...



Who said I won't talk to you? Hells bells I'm Italian, I was born to argue...excuse me, I mean discuss or debate topics in a gentlemanly manner. OK now to the topic at hand...I can't say I'm for or against gun control but for one thing the old saying about "If they outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns" does make a hell of a lot of sense but, on the other hand, I do think there should be strict guidelines on who gets to buy firearms. The worst part is that I think it should be a federal guideline but I think that idea would just create another bureaucratic nightmare, not to mention an ACLU feeding frenzie. As you guys have already stated there is a mixed bag of state level laws and some of them are so loose and enforcement so haphazard as to render them ineffective. So what does everybody think? State or Federal?


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 2, 2007)

*Another example on what someone set on killing masses of people can do....*

MANILA, Philippines - A man armed with a long knife killed 10 people, including five children, and wounded 14 more, during a rampage early Saturday in a central Philippine province, police said. 

The man first attacked and wounded six members of his own family with whom he lived in a remote village outside Calbayog city in central Samar province around 2 a.m. local time, police desk officer Jessie Gianan said by telephone.

The man then barged into two neighboring homes where he stabbed and hacked at the sleeping occupants, then he returned to a wake where he had been drinking earlier and attacked everyone in his path, Gianan said.

Eight of his victims died on the spot and two died later at a hospital, Gianan said. Another 14 were wounded.

The man then surrendered to another villager who turned him over to the authorities. It was not immediately clear what prompted the rampage


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