# Spain joins Axis June 1940 - what if...



## The Basket (Jan 14, 2012)

I am not so sure...would it have changed anything?

Certainty not the outcome.


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## Vincenzo (Jan 14, 2012)

Gibraltar was lost for the allied, Canary island was lost for the axis,
Spain has some natural resources usefull for the war.
Sure more trouble in north africa mediterranean for the allies


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## michaelmaltby (Jan 14, 2012)

Spain becomes a "full partner" (like Romania and Hungary) in Barbarossa - June '41. Doesn't effect the ending, however.

MM


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## buffnut453 (Jan 14, 2012)

If it meant closure of the straits into the Med then things might have been very different for the Allies. Supplies for the 8th Army would have to go the long way round the Cape to get to Egypt. Would that have resulted in German victory in North Africa? Dunno but if it had, things might have been very, very different. German units released from North Africa for the Russian Front? Removal of the Takoradi air resupply route? All pure conjecture but not impossible.


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## The Basket (Jan 15, 2012)

Any knowledge on the military of Spain duriing WW2?

Was it in any position to support Germany other than as a 'friendly' neutral?


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## parsifal (Jan 15, 2012)

I did some research about 10 years ago on the state of the spanish armed forces at various stages in the war. Spain as a country had suffered enormaously as a result of the Civil war, and her military had also taken heavy casualties, and much military equipment was worn out and unserviceable. Her military was largely demobilised up to June 1940, though the field formations were maintained at cadre strength. To fully mobilise the Spanish army from a point in June 1940, it would have taken to around December before the field formations were up to strength, assuming a reasonable rate of supply and support from her Axis partners. 

Spain had the following field formations in her army

On the mainland
16 x Infantry Divs, 4 x Armoured Regiments (armed mostly with ex-Italian Light Tanks, and a few Russian T-26s, most of which were unserviceable), 1 x Cavalry Division (somewhat more ready than other formations) 1 xMtn Div, 

Two of the Infantry Divs were stationed outside of Gibraltar but do not appear to be at any higher readiness state than any other formations

Balearic Islands
2 x Inf Regts, 1 x Light armoured Bn (no tanks), 

Spanish Morrocco
7 x Inf Divs (two were partially ready), 1 Light Armoured Regt, 3 x Inf Regt (Independant). 

There were about 16000 defenders in the Canary Islands....we think organized into 2 x Inf Regt. 

Her mobilization would have been slow , concentrating mostly on bringing these forces up to strength, however additional formations as follows would have been added to the regulars 

Mainland
(D1 to 28)
3 x Reg Inf Regts, 9 x Cav Regts, 1 x motorized Inf III, 

Spanish Morrocco
1 x cav Bde, 2 x Cav Regts (these were about half the size of the Bde)

Balearic Islands
2 x Inf Regt

D29 to D49
Mainland
by the 7th week of mobilization, the Spaniards planned to add 4 x Labour Regts (construction...concentration camp inmates), 7 x MG bns, on the mainland

Spanish Morrocco
1 x Construction Regt, 4 x Police Bns, 1 x MG Regt

Balearic Islands
2 x Inf Regt

D50+
Mainland
By the 10th week of mobilization they planned to add 9 x Field Engineer regts, 8 x Fld artillery regt, and 3 x Corps Artillery Regts (150mm or larger).

Spanish Morrocco
2 x fld Artilleryt Regts, 2 x Field Engineer

Balearic Islands
1 x Engineer Bn

I will do the air force and Navy, and the planned German and British formations in next posts. one thing to note, however, the entry of Spain as an active belligerent, would have almost certainly seen Colonial France and most of her surving military pass to the allies, as a pre-requisite of Spanish belligerncy was the ceding of most of the French north African possessions to her. The vichy leaders had already indicated they would join the allies if that happened. 

We estimated the Spanish resource and weapons demands wqould have cost the Germans between 25 andf 40 divs and about 600 aircraft in her pre-JUune 1941 preparations

Spanish entry to the war comes at a hefty cost, and given the pre-conditions the loss of Gibraltar is not assured


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## herman1rg (Jan 15, 2012)

Interesting thought, I shall see how the experts develop the idea.


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## parsifal (Jan 15, 2012)

Spanish air force and Navy

(notes) it was very difficult to determine exactly how many of the leftover aircraft from the Civil war had survived in flyable condition. Our estimates should be viewed owith that in mind. We rounded the numbers to the nearest ten, to suit the purpoises for which this research was done)

120 x CR-32, 50 x Me 109e, 80 x I-15, 30 x I-16, 10 x G-50, 40 x He 111B, 60 x SM 79, 20 x Do 17, 20 x Ca 311, 20 x BR 20, 20 x He 70, 20 x SM 81, 20 x Ju 52, 20 x Ju 87A, 20 x Ba 65, 20 x SB-2


Navy
1 x CA:	Baleares
5 x CL:	3 x Alphonso Class (designed 1915), , Eugenia, Nunez (built 1920)
20 x DD:	3 x Alsedo (1922), 13 x Churucca Class (basically British Scott Class), 4 x ex Italian (Aquila, Falco, Guglielmo, Mellilla (they were about 1000 tons)
7 x Sloops (sotelo, 4 x Jupiter Class, 2 x Eolo Class) 
7 x Subs:	5 x “C” Class, 2 x “Archimede” (FI) 
8 x large Minesweepers
6 x Thornycroft CMBs (MTBS dating back to 1922), 2 x Ex Russian MTBS (G5 Class) 1 x ex-Italian MAS (MAS 437), 3 x ex German S-Boote (S3-5 Class) 
A large number of small craft used for Customs and Coastal police work 

In 1939, the Spanish Mercantle Marine had 824 vessels registered,, amounting to 913898 Gross tonnage.


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## The Basket (Jan 15, 2012)

What 'Volunteers' did Spain send to fight the Soviets? Were they effective? 

I know the abwehr and Canaris himself was close to Franco and maybe he told them to stay out. 

In the film das boot, the U boat was allowed to dock in Vigo which could have been an indicator or more than nuetral. Also the Italians were allowed to use a ship in a Spanish port to attack RN in Gibratar using Algeciras as a base.

Did the Spanish offer any other support?


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## davebender (Jan 15, 2012)

The 1941 Spanish economy had little to contribute to the anti-communist war effort besides tungsten ore. So I don't see how Germany would gain much if Spain sends additional soldiers. Their equipment and training would need to be supplied by Germany just as happened historically.

As for Spain declaring war on Britain, that's not going to happen. Britain would need to declare war on Spain just as they declared war on Germany during September 1939. I don't think even Churchill could force the British Government into such a declaration of war.


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## The Basket (Jan 15, 2012)

This 'what if' is based on June 1940 and the retaking of Gibraltar.

One could argue that Franco did actively engage in war against USSR and thats why Stalin wanted Franco out.


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## davebender (Jan 15, 2012)

PM Churchill had a tough job getting the RN to attack France during 1940. If he also tried to attack Spain during the same time frame I think his government would fall and Britain would have a new Prime Minister.


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## buffnut453 (Jan 15, 2012)

The key question is the impact of losing Gibraltar on RN operations in the Mediterranean and the consequent effect on the fighting in North African, Malta, Crete, Greece, Syria etc.


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## davebender (Jan 15, 2012)

I think it rather far fetched to think 1940 Spain would be at war with Britain. But let's set that aside. 1940 Spain is somehow at war with Britain.....

After Mers-el-Kebir it would take very little to get France to ally with Germany. So it's a package deal. When Spain joins the war France is pulled in also. German military units now have access to the Atlantic coast from Tromso to Gibraltar. Plus Morocco and the North African coast as far east as the Italian border with Egypt.

Britain wouldn't stand a chance in the Mediterranean and Germany is not going to miss an opportunity this good. There would be no Battle of Britain. Instead Germany, Italy and France will spend the fall of 1940 securing the entire Mediterranean coast (less Turkey). 

Speaking of Turkey, this may tip them into the war in return for getting the Mosul oil fields back. The opportunity is too good to miss when Britain is driven completely out of the Med.


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## The Basket (Jan 15, 2012)

I dont think its far fetched. If Spain believed Britain was finished like Mussolini did than very much on.

Claim Gibraltar by force and you are at war with Britain. Italy fell for it.


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## davebender (Jan 15, 2012)

Mussolini was butting heads with Britain from 1935 onward. He was the only Axis leader that desired war with Britain.


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## parsifal (Jan 15, 2012)

> I think it rather far fetched to think 1940 Spain would be at war with Britain. But let's set that aside. 1940 Spain is somehow at war with Britain.....



We dont need to think "somehow, we know exactly "how". Spains price for entering the war wa the dissolvement of Vichy and the provision of a massive economic assistance package, that was about equal to 30-40 wehrmaqcht divisions, in terms of economic cost.. 



> After Mers-el-Kebir it would take very little to get France to ally with Germany. So it's a package deal. When Spain joins the war France is pulled in also. German military units now have access to the Atlantic coast from Tromso to Gibraltar. Plus Morocco and the North African coast as far east as the Italian border with Egypt.



There would not be a Mers el kebir. Faced with extinction by the Germans, the colonbial possessions in French North Africa, and her navy, would join the allies. This option was given to the French prior to the historical attack. They refused because their leadership what might happen in Metropolitan FDrance. With the Germans collapsing Metropolitan France, or alternativelyt with the Germans demanding unconditional surrender during the boF, ther is no issue with the French joining the Allies. They would do so automatically in this scenario




> Britain wouldn't stand a chance in the Mediterranean and Germany is not going to miss an opportunity this good. There would be no Battle of Britain. Instead Germany, Italy and France will spend the fall of 1940 securing the entire Mediterranean coast (less Turkey).



It is far from an open opportunity. its an opportunity, but it has huge costs as well. Spain has not the air force, the navy or the army to protect its coasts and colonial possessions. It has not the strength to take Gibraltar. With the French joining the allies in north Africa, there are major threats to Italian possessions in Libya, and the Spanish in their territory of Morocco. The canary Islands, and the Balearic Islands as well as Spanish Sahara are all under severe threat of capture. This is not an easy scenario at all for the Germans. 



> Speaking of Turkey, this may tip them into the war in return for getting the Mosul oil fields back. The opportunity is too good to miss when Britain is driven completely out of the Med.



Not a chance. The turks had no trust in the Germans after being duped by them in WWI. The only way the turks would be induced into the war was by the full surrender of the British, and that was never goiung to happen. 

Turkey didnt trust the Germans, they feared them


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## parsifal (Jan 15, 2012)

The German and Allied force committtments

For the Germans there were two scenarios considered. The first was against Spain resisting a German invasion, the second was Spain acting as an Axis ally.

Scenario 1....Spain as an Allied nation.

The German plan (scheduled for early 1941) called for the following forces to be committed

4 x Panzer Divs (3, 4, 6, 7), 2x Mot Divs (SS Totenkopf, 20 Mot), 2 x Gebirgsjager Divs, 14 x Inf Divs (5, 6, 8, 11, 12, 17, 24, 28, 34, 35, 52, 57, 78, 87, 267, 296, Pol (SS)) 1 x Air landing Division (22), 5 x Parachute Bns, 1 x Bicycle Bn, 2 x mot MG Bn, 3 x Hy AA Regt, 10 x engineer, 6 x Artillery Regt (Corps Artillery). On D-28 they hoped to have in place outside gibraltar an impressive Siege train, consisting of most of germany's heavy siege guns...about 6 x hy artillery regts. About half of these were railroad guns and would have required about three months to get into position due to the state of Spains railways. 

The LW committment was for one air fleet to be initially deployed. I forget which one, but not all these units are specialist anti-shipping units. Approximate committment levels were 

80 x Dp17z, 200 x He111, 180 Ju 87B, 280 Me 109, 120x Me 110, 3-400 Ju52s, 

Scenario 2....Spain as an axis nation 

In the event of Spain joining as an Axis Partner, German committment was far more restrained. Canaris's mission in June 1940, envisaged the committment of a single mtn div amounting to 15000 men. There was no heavy artillery committed, as the germans assumed the Spaniards would provide that. If so, there would have been a minimum three month delay between the Spaniards joining the Axis and and the commencement of an actual attack. In that time the Brits would have reinforced the garrsion even further. 

The British response

The British also had a number of contingency plans in the event of Spanish belligerency. If Spain were hostile, this would have meant a delayed involvement of at least three months. in that time the Brits planned or made contingency plans to occupy Spanish Morroco and the canary islands, to seize the approaches to Gibraltar. I am not exactly sure of the operational plans....but they involved committment by 4 x Inf Divs (1, 2 Can, 3, 43), 1 x Armoured Div (1), 2 x Hvy Tank Bdes (3, 5), 3 x Cprps Artillery Regt, 3 x Engineer Regts, 3 x Hvy Aa Bdes. The Brits planned to commit about 400 aircraft to the capture of morocco, including 140 Spits and a similar number of hurricanes.

The standing garrison in Gib consisted of 2 x Infantry Brigades (1Gib, 2 Gib) and over 300 gun emplacements. The approaches to Gibraltar were heavily mined, and aparently narrowed to less than 500 yards across. The approaches to Gib were flat and open, whilst the fortress rose uncharacteristically out of the sky. 

I have not found what the British response would have been if the germans had invaded Iberia. However it was expected that the Spaniards would have been jooined by the portuguese (since they had an alliance), and force levels similar to the above could be expected from the Brits. 

_General situation

"Following the fall of France to Germany in June 1940, Hermann Göring advised Adolf Hitler to occupy Spain and North Africa rather than invade Britain. As early as June 1940, before the armistice with France had been signed, General Heinz Guderian also argued for seizing Britain's strategically important naval base of Gibraltar. Guderian even urged Hitler to postpone the armistice so that he could rush on through Spain with two Panzer divisions, take Gibraltar, and then invade French North Africa. General Alfred Jodl, chief of Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (OKW) operations, presented Hitler with a formal plan to cut off Britain from its eastern empire by invading Spain, Gibraltar, North Africa, and the Suez Canal instead of invading the British Isles.

On 12 July 1940, the OKW set up a special group for the necessary planning. On 22 July, Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, the head of the Abwehr and an acknowledged expert on Spain, travelled with several other German officers to Madrid, Spain, where they held talks with General Francisco Franco and General Juan Vigón, his Minister of War. They then travelled on to Algeciras, where they stayed some days to reconnoiter the approaches to Gibraltar. They returned to Germany with the conclusion that Franco's regime was reluctant to enter the war. However, it has since become known that Canaris was disloyal to Hitler and actually encouraged Franco not to join the Axis, since an Allied victory was almost certain. Canaris' team did however determine that Gibraltar might be seized through an air-supported ground assault involving at least two infantry regiments, three engineer battalions, and 12 artillery regiments. The assessment team advised that without 15 in (380 mm) heavy assault cannon — which he knew were unavailable — Gibraltar could not be taken. When Canaris reported to Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel, he gave his personal opinion that even if Germany were able, with the cooperation of Spain, to seize Gibraltar, the British would land in Morocco and French West Africa.

On 18 July, Franco claimed Gibraltar. He did not expect the British to accede to the claim and made it to keep Germany from attempting to take it.

In August, Canaris met with Franco's brother-in-law, Ramón Serrano Súñer, who was about to become Spain's Foreign Minister. Canaris urged Súñer to do what he could to convince Franco to stay out of the war. Soon after, Franco dispatched Súñer to Berlin to get an idea of Hitler's attitude, since Canaris had assured him that Germany would not forcibly intervene in Spain. When Súñer met Hitler on September 16, Hitler did not press very hard for Spanish involvement in the war, perhaps because he planned to meet Franco himself very soon.

Canaris met with Franco around the same time and warned him that if Spain joined the Axis, the Spanish islands — even mainland Spain itself — would be at risk from British attack. Knowing that Franco feared a hostile German invasion of Spain if he refused to cooperate, Canaris informed him that Hitler had no such intention due to the planned invasion of Russia. Canaris also surprised Franco by admitting that he was convinced Germany could not win the war

German military leaders proceeded to prepare for a large-scale operation against Gibraltar. Codenamed Operation Felix, the plan called for two German army corps to enter Spain across the Pyrenees. One corps, under General Ludwig Kübler, was to cross Spain and assault Gibraltar, while the other, commanded by General Rudolf Schmidt, was to secure its flanks. Air support would need one fighter and two dive-bomber wings. Overall command of Felix was to be assigned to Field Marshal Walther von Reichenau. The plan also made provisions for occupying Spanish possessions in North Africa: Spanish Morocco, Río de Oro, and the Canary Islands, whose ports could then be used as bases for German U-boats.

On 12 November, Hitler issued Führer Directive No. 18, which stated that "political measures to induce the prompt entry of Spain into the war have been initiated" and that "The aim of German intervention in the Iberian Peninsula (code name Felix) will be to drive the English out of the Western Mediterranean." It also mentioned the potential invasion of Portugal if the British gained a foothold and requested that the occupation of Madeira and of the Azores be investigated.

On 5 December, Hitler met with the German High Command and decided to request permission from Franco for German troops to cross the Spanish border on 10 January 1941. It was planned that General Jodl would go to Spain to make preparations for the attack on Gibraltar as soon as Canaris had obtained Franco's agreement. Canaris accordingly met with Franco on 7 December and put to Franco the need for Spain's immediate entry into the war. Franco responded that Spain was simply not capable, due to shortages of food. He also expressed his fear that German seizure of Gibraltar would lead to the loss of the Canary Islands and Spain's other overseas possessions.

On receiving Canaris' report, Hitler decided that Operation Felix should be cancelled. 

In the opening weeks of 1941, unsuccessful efforts were made by both Berlin and Rome to encourage the Spanish government to change their stance. Franco answered negatively to another request from Hitler to join the war, received on 6 February, using as a pretext the precarious state of Spain's economy. Joachim von Ribbentrop, Germany's Foreign Minister, told Hitler that in his opinion Franco had no intention of ever joining the war.

In February 1941, the OKW advised the naval high command that Operation Felix was out of the question for the time being, since the troops earmarked for it would soon be needed elsewhere.

Felix-Heinrich

On Hitler's insistence, the OKW developed a revised plan for the capture of Gibraltar, which might be implemented once the German invasion of the Soviet Union had been completed. Codenamed Felix-Heinrich, the plan was submitted to General Franz Halder on 10 March 1941. It proposed that as soon as the invading forces in the Soviet Union reached a line between Kiev and Smolensk, hopefully by 15 July, units could then be withdrawn to prepare for the Gibraltar operation, which it was thought could begin on 15 October. Felix-Heinrich would broadly follow the original plan, with the same forces, but with new supporting units."_


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## Njaco (Jan 16, 2012)

This is from memory and may be faulty,
The Spanish 'Azul' unit served on the Eastern Front. Shortly after Kursk it was removed but many members remained in defiance of orders from Spain. I believe that JG 27 or JG 54 also had a Spanish unit - 15./JG27?


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## davebender (Jan 16, 2012)

Only a lunatic would purchase military alliance with Spain at that price and he would be deposed by military coup before the treaty is signed. So if Spain enters the war it won't happen that way.


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## parsifal (Jan 16, 2012)

you have just answered the question why hitler declined francos offer to join the Axis. franco's offer was designed specifically to be too high for germany to pay the price. economically it would have put a huge dent in the german economy. Politically it would have turned every neutral nation away from the germans, as they would have exposed the germans as completely untrustworthy. This would include those that actually joined the Axis detente (since they did not enter the war until the latter part of 1940, and then only with some arm twisting....in the case of finland, they did not join the axis until after June 1941).

The most likley scenario is that the Germans dont accept conditional surrender of the french and push onto Marseilles. This may have induced co-operation from the spanish without the economic cost, but still with the promise of the French African possessions. The French believed they could extrricate an additional 20 Divs from southern Francce, if an evacuation started aound June 14th....thats just prior to the fall of Paris. They had over 2000 airframes in reserve, 22 Divs already in French North Africa Corsica and West Afrfica. Their entire navy would of course go over to the allied side. In addition Portugal would almnost certainly either enter as an allied nation, or at the very least hand over the Azores (as they did historically, in 1944) for use by the allies. 

This scenario almost certainly would see the rapid defeat of the italians in Libya, and the occupation of Spanish Morocco, Spanish Sahara and the Canary Islands. It would probably see a massive siege, similar to that at Tobruk, lasting years I would think. Gibraltar was the most well stocked fortress in the British empire, so its ability to hold out would be considerable.

On the other hand, the Spanish ports of Cadiz and Corunna would have given some possibilities for U-Boats and Surface raiders. but with West Africa, the Azores and Canary Islands in Allied hands (oh, as well as the Portuguese island of Madeira), the Axis would still remain pretty much contained. 

Another possibility is that the germans simply invade Spain. This is what both Jodl and guderian wanted to do. Guderians plan was, frankly foolhardy and impractical. jodls plan, on which the eventual Felix plan was based, was a sound plan, but could not have been implemented until the end of the year and would have given the allies plenty of time to prepre and negotiate with the Spanish. It would have given the spaniards and the Portuguese time to consider their position and perhaps accept armamanets from the allies (of course joining the allies) 

What the germans wanted to avoid was another peninsular campaign with the gureillas and constant harassment....getting nowhere. Perhaps not on the scale of Nappy, but more akin to Yugolslavia. A nightmare, just the same.


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## davebender (Jan 16, 2012)

That's not going to happen as Germany had no desire to fight France (or Britain either for that matter).


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## parsifal (Jan 16, 2012)

davebender said:


> That's not going to happen as Germany had no desire to fight France (or Britain either for that matter).




I dont agree that germany did not want to fight the western allies. Germany thought that the British would make peace after the fall of France, but in 1939 had actually wanted war, one reason being to get revenge for versaille. He had hoped that after the fall of Poland, the western allies might acquiesce, but his overall goal was at some point to defeat the western allies militarily.

What peeved the germans and enraged Hitler was Britains failure to accept meekly a german fait accompli. Thats not avoiding war, thats wanting your opponent to accept a new status quo. Britain was never going to accept the status quo..

So if you had said "Hitler wanted to avoid war with Britian and france, at least trermporarily, whilst he busily went about enslaving or destroying the rest of Europe", then you are right, Hitler wanted to avoid war. If the allies resisted that modus operandi, then Hitler wanted to destroy one or both countries. And given that hitler knew the Allied position regarding German militarism...ie no more czechoslovakias.....Thats closer to the truth than trying to pass off Hitler as a man of peace with only warm fuzzy feelings or even indifference towards both Britain and France. 

Unconditional surrender was an option for the Germans, and was the method advocated by Guderian, to get to Spain.....his so-caled flying column. This was an impractical plan but Jodls was based on the same assumption, but with a pause after the collapse of france. So there were officers at least thinking along the lines of an unconditional surrender


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## The Basket (Jan 16, 2012)

Good stuff Parsifal...do you know anything about Spanish troops in USSR?

You say The Canary Islands would have been taken by the British....was this ever planned?

Did the Germans want Spain in the war just for Gib or for more symbolic reasons...


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## parsifal (Jan 16, 2012)

I do, but its at home and im not. Will post what I have later today (about 9 hours away).

The spanish Blue Division fought very well in the Novgorod region, but remember they were hand picked, the best that Spain could field.

(edit: had a chance to go home and look the British plan for the capture of the Canary Is.

The operation was called Operation Puma, and involved Commando units, Royal Marines regular Army Infantry. 

One of the commando units was No 4 Cdo. After returning from Norway, training started for Operation Puma, the occupation of the Canary Islands. The operation was planned following intelligence that Spain was going to join the war on the side of the Axis forces. It was initially scheduled for June 1 1941. The intention was to prevent Germany using the islands as a U-Boat base. The force assembled included five commando units, an army brigade, two Royal Marine brigades and supporting arms. Training for Operation Puma culminated in landing exercises in the Hebrides from the Landing Ship, Infantry HMS Royal Scotsman. The operation was renamed Operation Pilgrim and after a number of delays was put on hold by the Chiefs-of-Staff. 

The germans were also planning to capture the islands but their plans were stymied when they realized that whilst they could take the islands supply and reinforcement was going to be very difficult for tham


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## Freebird (Feb 16, 2013)

> This 'what if' is based on June 1940 and the retaking of Gibraltar.



Why would Hitler dicker around with Gibraltar/Spain etc in the summer of 1940 when he has the perfect chance to knock Britain out of the war?
Everyone expected Britain's neck to be "wrung like a chicken" and either be invaded or sue for peace. Why would Hitler take his boot off of Britain's neck?



davebender said:


> After Mers-el-Kebir it would take very little to get France to ally with Germany. So it's a package deal. When Spain joins the war France is pulled in also.



Not exactly...
There are a number of factors here. France is very concerned about her colonies, and is well aware that Spain Italy have eyes on them. What does France gain from a war?



davebender said:


> Britain wouldn't stand a chance in the Mediterranean and Germany is not going to miss an opportunity this good. There would be no Battle of Britain. Instead Germany, Italy and France will spend the fall of 1940 securing the entire Mediterranean coast (less Turkey). out of the Med.



Why wouldn't they stand a chance in the Med?

Germany, Italy (even with Spain France) are still unable to eject the British from Egypt.
Britain may well lose Gibraltar (and likely Malta) but will gain an advantage by seizing tha Canaries and Azores.
If Gibraltar falls there is limited benefit to passage through the straights as Germany has limited naval assets and the Regia Marina is hampered by the lack of fuel.




The Basket said:


> Any knowledge on the military of Spain duriing WW2?
> 
> Was it in any position to support Germany other than as a 'friendly' neutral?



Not really, the costs of both resources and manpower would be huge, compared to the gains



The Basket said:


> Good stuff Parsifal...do you know anything about Spanish troops in USSR?
> 
> You say The Canary Islands would have been taken by the British....was this ever planned?
> 
> Did the Germans want Spain in the war just for Gib or for more symbolic reasons...



The Canaries would be useful as well, but there was some serious disconnect between what was possible given the naval transport assets the Axis had



parsifal said:


> I do, but its at home and im not. Will post what I have later today (about 9 hours away).
> 
> The spanish Blue Division fought very well in the Novgorod region, but remember they were hand picked, the best that Spain could field.



The Blue Division also include some fanatical Facsists and political opponants of Franco, sending them to the Eastern front was a way to get rid of them



parsifal said:


> (edit: had a chance to go home and look the British plan for the capture of the Canary Is.
> 
> The operation was called Operation Puma, and involved Commando units, Royal Marines regular Army Infantry.
> 
> One of the commando units was No 4 Cdo. After returning from Norway, training started for Operation Puma, the occupation of the Canary Islands. The operation was planned following intelligence that Spain was going to join the war on the side of the Axis forces. It was initially scheduled for June 1 1941.



Actually much earlier than that, the British had plans for action against the canaries and Cape Verde (Operation Shrapnel Operation Alloy) from the summer of 1940. There were two RM brigades (101 102) available, with an addtional brigade (103) forming. Occupation of the Azores was also all but certain if the Germans moved into Spain or if Spain became a belligerant.
Operations against the islands off the African coast were so important that RM 102 brigade was held in readiness in Freetown during the summer of '40, ready to move out within 72 hours. This was despite the fact that the British were expect an invasion (Sealion)


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## davebender (Feb 16, 2013)

Whether France has anything to gain by fighting Britain doesn't matter. After Mers-el-Kebir France was at war with Britain and remained at war until Operation Torch finally finished Vichy France off.

This scenerio gives France a chance to strike back at their British tormentors. They might take it rather then just serving as a British punching bag.


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## parsifal (Feb 17, 2013)

There was never a declaration of war between Frnace and Britain, at least not until Lvals return to power in late 1941. It was often as much a case of the individual colonies making decisions about what sides they wanted to take. In the Pacific for example, the Vichy on New caledonia accepted joining the Allies without hardly a murmur of disquiet. Some time earlier the Japanese extorted basing rights and occupation of IndoChina, but the French never joine them as allies

In Europe and North Africa, the Central African colonies of France joined the British in their souther n arm of the general offensive against the italians. There were basing rights given (not taken) to the RAF when they set up the overlan air routes to Egypt. Thousands of Frenchmen joined the allied cause either as "Free Frenchmen" under De Gaulle, or as part of the Vichy forces. 

Even after the sad events of Merselkebir, there was a strong willingness to join the allies rather than join the germans . german behaviour in the occupation is largely the reason for that. Within hours of the landings in North Africa the local forces were changing sides to fight alongside the allies, initially to clear Tunisia but latyrer to liberate Corsica and take part in the liberation of Italy and France as well. During all these actions Vichy remained in existence. The occupation of southern france was tritely masqueraded by the germans as coming to an ally's aid. nobody believed that for a second, except maybe the closest collaborators like Petain and Laval. The French showed what they thought of German offers of protection by scuttling their fleet and joining either the resistance or fighting with the allies in their thousands. The experiences between the british and the French 1940-2 were very painful for both sides, but the aimosity generated paled compared to how the French thought about the germans. They hated the Germans because of what the germans had done to them, they were less angry with thye british, as event were to show.


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