# Israeli Avia S-199 vs. Egyptian AF Spitfire



## Hornet_Driver (Jun 9, 2007)

Does anybody have any information on the air war fought between the Israeli and the Egyptian AF in 1947? I remember seeing an artist's rendition of an Avia S-199 downing an Egyptian AF Spitfire, and to this day, I've kind of had that image stuck in the back of my head and wondered about what sort of pilots these guys were and the training they received and if there were any that really stood out.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 9, 2007)

This month's Flight Journal magazine has an article on Israeli Avias.


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## Negative Creep (Jun 10, 2007)

Seeing as the Israeli's used Spitfires as well, were there Spit vs Spit combats?


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## bigZ (Jun 19, 2007)

Yes their was a Spit on Spit encounter but I cant remmember who the combatants where at present.


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## bigZ (Jun 19, 2007)

Remmembered:-

Spitfires last saw major action during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, when, in a strange twist, Israeli Air Force Spitfires flown by formerly RAF pilots in the Second World War II such as Ezer Weizman engaged Egyptian Spitfires and Royal Air Force Spitfires


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## Bernhart (Jun 20, 2007)

also there were Isreali spits Mk ix's I believe that shot down 2 British Mk 22's and I believe Tempests? Have the story somewhere at home...
found this

order to further validate its warning, British presence in the air above the region was increased. At first a passive observer, the RAF based in Egypt started taking a more active role, intervening with IAF operations against the retreating Egyptian army. On the morning of January 7th 1949, a few hours before the ceasefire was due to come into effect, four RAF 208th Squadron Spitfire F.22s took off from Faid to observe Israeli operations in the Sinai. Once over Israeli forces, however, the four aircraft came under attack from Israeli anti aircraft fire. The formation's no. 2, Frank Close, took a direct hit to his engine and was forced to bail his stricken aircraft. Soon, two Israeli Spitfires of the 101st "First Fighter" Squadron, were also on the scene. The Israeli pilots, Chalmers Goodlin and John McElroy, volunteers from the US and Canada, spotted the Spitfires and engaged them. McElroy scored his first kill against a Spitfire flown by Ron Sayers, while Goodlin went after the RAF flight leader, Geoff Cooper, and shot him down after a short dogfight. McElroy, meanwhile, had spotted the fourth RAF Spitfire circling the wreckage of Close's aircraft. The last British Spitfire went down as well, its pilot, Tim McElhaw, bailing out before the aircraft hit the sand dunes of the Sinai. Ron Sayers was killed in the encounter, Close and McElhaw were captured by Israeli forces, while Cooper managed to evade capture and made it back to Egypt. The two captured pilots were released within a few days.




Although the IAF had gained overall air superiority in its encounters with the various Arab air forces, the prospect of facing the RAF was not one to be taken lightly and orders were issued to prevent a repeat of the combat with the British. These however, were soon ignored when four IAF Spitfires led by Ezer Weizman (former president of Israel) encoutered RAF Tempests looking for their four missing aircraft. In the ensueing dogfight, Bill Schroeder shot down an RAF Tempest, killing its pilot, David Tattersfield, while Weizman severely damaged another.
With the final result 5:0 in favor of Israel, a fierce British retaliation was expected. This failed to materialize however, apparently after the British government came under fire at home for intervening in Arab-Israeli affairs.


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## Haztoys (Jun 21, 2007)

I hear the S-199 was called the "mule" by those who did fly her ..

What sort of plane was it ...? ..Good ..Or ..???

Thanks David


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## bigZ (Jun 22, 2007)

Bad. The DB engines set aside for the S-199 where sabatoged forcing them to use the Jumo. Plane handled badly hence the name the "Mule".


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## Catch22 (Jun 22, 2007)

It was brutal. Like BigZ said, then engine was underpowered, wasn't balanced properly, and the propeller blades were too thick, so the pilots could (and did) shoot their own propellers off because the timing was off.


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## LaggyMcLagLag (Jun 30, 2007)

The spitfire was better than the original 109, ad since the Avia sucked big-time, I think the Egyptians had the better plane.
Once again a link to the almighty wikipedia.
Avia S-199 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Half of the article is about the isrealies flying it.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 30, 2007)

LaggyMcLagLag said:


> The spitfire was better than the original 109, ad since the Avia sucked big-time, I think the Egyptians had the better plane.
> Once again a link to the almighty wikipedia.
> Avia S-199 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Half of the article is about the isrealies flying it.



The original Bf 109 and Spitfire were actually quite equal.


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## LaggyMcLagLag (Jun 30, 2007)

Blast, I was wrong again. Oh well, eventually I'll learn better.


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## Aggie08 (Sep 11, 2007)

I never would have guessed Israelis and Brits duked it out. They're awfully lucky the Brits didn't retaliate.


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