# 9/11 Coincidences?



## Njaco (Jan 17, 2008)

I'm sure most are aware of the similarities betwenn Lincoln and Kennedy (Lincoln was shot in Ford's theatre and Kennedy was shot in a Lincoln made by Ford, etc.). Well, I got an email about 9/11 and....take it for what its worth. Some people have too much time spent figuring this stuff out - me included for reading it!  

1) New York City has 11 letters.

2) Afghanistan has 11 letters.

3) Ramsin Yuseb, the terrorist who threatened to destroy the Twin Towers in 1993, has 11 letters.

4) George W Bush has 11 letters.

This could be a mere coincidence, but this gets more interesting

1) New York is the 11th state

2) The first plane crashing against the Twin Towers was flight number 11

3) Flight 11 was carrying 92 passengers. 9 + 2 = 11

4) Flight 77, which also hit Twin Towers, was carrying 65 passengers. 6+5 = 11

5) The tragedy was on September 11, or 9/11, as it is now known. 9 + 1+ 1 =11

6) The date is equal to the US emergency services telephone number 911. 9 + 1 + 1 =11

Sheer coincidence? Read on and make up your own mind:

1) The total number of victims inside all the hi-jacked planes was 254. 2 + 5 + 4 = 11. 

2) September 11 is day number 254 of the calendar year. Again 2 + 5 + 4 = 11. 

3) The Madrid bombing took place on 3/11/2004. 3 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 4 = 11. 

4) The tragedy of Madrid happened 911 days after the Twin Towers incident. 

Now this is where things get totally eerie:

The most recognized symbol for the US after the Stars Stripes is the Eagle.

The following verse is taken from the Quran, the Islamic holy book:
"For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced: for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah and there was peace."

That verse is number 9.11 of the Quran.

Unconvinced about all of this still?

Try this and see how you feel afterwards, it made my hair stand on end: 
Open Microsoft Word and do the following:

1. Type Q33 NY in capital letters. This is the flight number of the first plane to hit one of the Twin Towers.

2. Highlight the Q33 NY. 

3. Change the font size to 48.

4. Change the actual font to the WINGDINGS. 

What do you think now?


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## plan_D (Jan 17, 2008)

Q33-NY was not the the flight number of the first plane; it was AA-077.


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## Njaco (Jan 17, 2008)

Oh, I believe you Plan. This was just some silly email. Actually had a chuckle.


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## plan_D (Jan 17, 2008)

Type Iraq War into Word and do the same, and then do it with NYPD.


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## Henk (Jan 17, 2008)

I do not want to sound like a idiot, but I do not believe the US government when they say it was terrorist who did the stuff at 9/11. Think about it. Usama bin Laden worked for the CIA and thus the US government, but now he is against the US?

The aircraft used did not have windows on them, the pentagon incident is bull and the fact that the war against Afghanistan and Iraq started after 9/11.

Well guys I never believe what a government tell me. They love to lie about everything and anything so have a look at the broader picture.


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## evangilder (Jan 17, 2008)

Pentagon incident is bull? How?


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## ToughOmbre (Jan 17, 2008)

Henk said:


> I do not want to sound like a idiot...



Then you should probably edit your post. You're reading (and believing) too many nut job websites.

TO


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## Negative Creep (Jan 17, 2008)

I can't see how any government would go to such lengths to kill its own citizens. Yes you could argue it will swing popular opinion in their favour, but it just seems too risky. Can you imagine what would happen if it turned out the government was involved? There would be a revolution and they'd be lucky not to be lynched. Besides


Urban Legends Reference Pages: Rumors of War


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## Njaco (Jan 17, 2008)

> The aircraft used did not have windows on them,



No windows??




> the fact that the war against Afghanistan and Iraq started after 9/11.



What fact? Those wars started BECAUSE of 9/11.

But I agree with you Henk. It wasn't planes but a water pistol from the Grassy Knoll.


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## Wurger (Jan 17, 2008)

Negative Creep said:


> I can't see how any government would go to such lengths to kill its own citizens.



What about Coventry during WW2?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2008)

Henk said:


> I do not want to sound like a idiot, but I do not believe the US government when they say it was terrorist who did the stuff at 9/11. Think about it. Usama bin Laden worked for the CIA and thus the US government, but now he is against the US?
> 
> The aircraft used did not have windows on them, the pentagon incident is bull and the fact that the war against Afghanistan and Iraq started after 9/11.
> 
> Well guys I never believe what a government tell me. They love to lie about everything and anything so have a look at the broader picture.




WTF???

Where do you come up with this ****?


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## Njaco (Jan 17, 2008)

Adler, I just googled for images of the 9/11 planes and you would not bellieve the cr*p sites on the net claiming conspiracy. Gets me angrier than I am about the Clintons!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2008)

Njaco said:


> Adler, I just googled for images of the 9/11 planes and you would not bellieve the cr*p sites on the net claiming conspiracy. Gets me angrier than I am about the Clintons!



Yes but the fact that people actually believe those things is what strikes me as absurd.

I mean are they naive, ignorant, or just plain unintelligent?


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## ToughOmbre (Jan 17, 2008)

Unfortunately a number of "Americans" (a small minority to be sure) believe in the "Inside Job" conspiracy theory about September 11th. It makes my blood boil. But there is ironclad proof that these idiotic theories are false.....

*Rosie O'Donnell *is a leading proponent of this disgraceful point of view.

Enough said  

TO


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 17, 2008)

Yeah but Rosie is stupid fat **** anyhow, so who cares.


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## Negative Creep (Jan 17, 2008)

Wurger said:


> What about Coventry during WW2?





Not quite sure I follow you, assuming you're talking about the German raids?


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## ToughOmbre (Jan 17, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Yeah but Rosie is stupid fat **** anyhow, so who cares.



Yes she is, so if she believes it, it's got to be false. And you're right, no one cares about that fat tub of Sh*t.

TO


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## comiso90 (Jan 17, 2008)

Henk said:


> The aircraft used did not have windows on them, the pentagon incident is bull and the fact that the war against Afghanistan and Iraq started after 9/11.
> 
> .



Believing it's a plot is actually a massive compliment... I dont believe our government is competent enough to pull of a hoax so massive in scope. 

And if the saw fit to try... They surely would not have overlooked putting windows on the aircraft flying over one of the worlds most populace cites..

If it was a plot.. why not do it at night to minimize risk of being discovered?

the notion is ridiculously funny...


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## Wurger (Jan 17, 2008)

Negative Creep said:


> Not quite sure I follow you, assuming you're talking about the German raids?




Yes I'm.


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## Njaco (Jan 17, 2008)

> Rosie O'Donnell is a leading proponent of this disgraceful point of view.



Just add it to the number of reasons why I hate the b*tch.

Everty time I read or hear cr*p like this I think theres way too many people with way too much time on their hands. Time to thin the herd?


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## Henk (Jan 18, 2008)

Now guys, look at it this way. You guys know what I think of finding sh*t out on the internet and that there are a lot of [email protected] out there, but this was not on the net. the Evidence is in the CCN Footage I have of 9/11 as everything happened.

The hole in the Pentagon is way to small for a airliner that size and jet fuel burns like hell, but why were there not the damage that jet fuel causes?

Now, to attack me about my opinion is not cool guys, come on. It is still bad what happened and the fact that so many people lost their lives for nothing.

I looked at the tapes I have, the pictures and everything, did you see any logo on the aircraft or any windows and the did you notice that the fuselage looks different from a real airliner?

Guys have a look, I do not like this conspiracy sh*t either, but have a look at everything and think about it.


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## lesofprimus (Jan 18, 2008)

Then post up ur evidence Henk, and let us see what ur referring to...


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## Njaco (Jan 18, 2008)

First, I looked at the pics that are posted ALL over the net and not one is a kodak moment. They're all grainy and hard to see. Feeds right into the conspiracy theorists. If it ain't obvious lets make up something like bulges, pods and windows.

Second I had 2 realtives at that time: One in the Pentagon and another one block away in NY. I can tell you nobody knew, no Jews left before evreybody else (another cr*p theory) and it was hell.

Its real easy to sit in an IkEA chair and speculate. Doesn't mean its true. Henk, nothing personal, but I can't grasp how you can even give a little credence to this. Its so much cr*p.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 18, 2008)

Henk said:


> Now guys, look at it this way. You guys know what I think of finding sh*t out on the internet and that there are a lot of [email protected] out there, but this was not on the net. the Evidence is in the CCN Footage I have of 9/11 as everything happened.



Please post your evidence then. If you are going to believe something then you need to back it up.



Henk said:


> The hole in the Pentagon is way to small for a airliner that size and jet fuel burns like hell, but why were there not the damage that jet fuel causes?



Are you sure the hole is too small? Have you actually seen a jet crash in person? How do you know how Jet Fuel Burns? It actually has a very high flash point.



Henk said:


> Now, to attack me about my opinion is not cool guys, come on. It is still bad what happened and the fact that so many people lost their lives for nothing.



No one is attacking you personally. We just want you to back up this very absurd claim. Because frankly I find it very wrong and that is to me not just an opinion but rather fact.



Henk said:


> I looked at the tapes I have, the pictures and everything, did you see any logo on the aircraft or any windows and the did you notice that the fuselage looks different from a real airliner?



A. How does the fuselage look different from a real airliner?

B. Show me that there were no windows on the plane.

C. No Logo? Those were all amateur shot videos of a plane miles away traveling a high speeds. 



Henk said:


> Guys have a look, I do not like this conspiracy sh*t either, but have a look at everything and think about it.



Show us the proof then?

You have to prove to us your point because this a thread full of people that know that it was a terrorist attack.


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## Marcel (Jan 18, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Are you sure the hole is too small? Have you actually seen a jet crash in person? How do you know how Jet Fuel Burns? It actually has a very high flash point.


Wel not the crash itself, but I saw the hole in an Amsterdam flat after an ELAL boeing 747 crashed there. Looked quite similar to the Pentagon, only the building was a little higher. The Pentagon looked very real to me, and I don't think it was a conspiracy, sorry Henk.


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## comiso90 (Jan 18, 2008)

Bigfoot shot JFK from the grassy knoll to cover up the moon landing hoax!

 
*
Debunking the 9/11 Myths:*

Debunking 911 Conspiracy Theories and Controlled Demolition Homepage
Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - Popular Mechanics
Journal Of Debunking  9/11 Conspiracy Theories


.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 18, 2008)

Marcel said:


> Wel not the crash itself, but I saw the hole in an Amsterdam flat after an ELAL boeing 747 crashed there. Looked quite similar to the Pentagon, only the building was a little higher. The Pentagon looked very real to me, and I don't think it was a conspiracy, sorry Henk.



Exactly...


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## comiso90 (Jan 18, 2008)

let me guess...

the cia planted these windows?

_While heading a Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) probe into the collapse of the towers, W. Gene Corley studied the airplane wreckage. A licensed structural engineer with Construction Technology Laboratories, a consulting firm based in Skokie, Ill., Corley and his team photographed aircraft debris on the roof of WTC 5, including a chunk of fuselage that clearly had passenger windows. "It's ... from the United Airlines plane that hit Tower 2," Corley states flatly. In reviewing crash footage taken by an ABC news crew, Corley was able to track the trajectory of the fragments he studied — including a section of the landing gear and part of an engine — as they tore through the South Tower, exited from the building's north side and fell from the sky. _

Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - Popular Mechanics


.


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## Henk (Jan 18, 2008)

Well Adler, Les everyone else, I do not have those pictures anymore, if you remember correctly I lost everything when my PC got trashed. I only have the pentagon video left. 

I have seen what jet fuel dose Adler, my dad worked at George airport and I saw the test they did there.

Now guys I wish I can prove it to you, but the thing is that it is my opinion and I did not want to try and convince anyone what I think or what I saw, I only said what I think of the whole thing.

No need to get so mad or go on about it, there are a lot of **** we do not know about that goes past us everyday.

So if I get my stuff some how if I am lucky I will share it with you with out any problems.

So you guys can say yes I do not have the proof and I am talking sh*t and what what, but that is what I believe.

lets just leave it at that and stop fighting over this.


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## Njaco (Jan 18, 2008)

Henk, its one thing to say the P-51 is better than the Bf 109. That is an opinion. But saying that 9/11 was a hoax perpetrated by the government is...well, I don't know. You have your opinions. Call me dense but this is the first time I've been made aware of this cr*p and it physically makes me sick.

People died.
Government workers died.
Rushing to get INTO the bldgs.

I really don't care about no windows and space pods but answer me this:

Why?

One good, solid,rational reason why the government, George or anybody in our government would want to do what you say.


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## Henk (Jan 18, 2008)

Like I said JUST LEAVE THE WHOLE F*CKING THING ALONE NOW AND JUST BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO IF YOU FEEL SICK OR THINK ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT I SAID JUST DROP IT AND CONTINUE WITH SOMETHING ELSE, BECAUSE WHAT EVER I SAY TO WHAT POINT WOULD IT BE?

So guys just leave it delete what I said or delete the whole f*cking thread I just do not care anymore to try and justify what I said, because you will still believe what you believe and this is only heading into one big fire storm that can just be avoided.


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## Njaco (Jan 18, 2008)

Wow, where did that come from? I thought I was pretty tame asking where you got your opinion from but ok. Thought we could discuss and maybe learn a few things.


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## ToughOmbre (Jan 18, 2008)

Njaco said:


> Wow, where did that come from? I thought I was pretty tame asking where you got your opinion from but ok. Thought we could discuss and maybe learn a few things.



We did learn a few things Chris. Mainly that Henk is visiting too many 9/11 conspiracy websites and has no clue as to what he is talking about. 

And one more thing.....

I am offended by anyone who states that the US government intentionally killed their own innocent citizens on September 11th.

Got that Henk   

TO


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 18, 2008)

comiso90 said:


> let me guess...
> 
> the cia planted these windows?
> 
> ...



Nope they cut those window pieces out after they found the wreckage....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 18, 2008)

Henk said:


> Like I said JUST LEAVE THE WHOLE F*CKING THING ALONE NOW AND JUST BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO IF YOU FEEL SICK OR THINK ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT I SAID JUST DROP IT AND CONTINUE WITH SOMETHING ELSE, BECAUSE WHAT EVER I SAY TO WHAT POINT WOULD IT BE?
> 
> So guys just leave it delete what I said or delete the whole f*cking thread I just do not care anymore to try and justify what I said, because you will still believe what you believe and this is only heading into one big fire storm that can just be avoided.



Henk chill out man!

You have to understand this subject is very sensitive for us Americans. Many people lost there lives that day and 9-11 is a day that will forever be a dark day in our history and ranks up there with Pearl Harbor. I am surprised you did not expect a response that you did. 

For the most part I think people have been very easy on you.


There is no "real" proof that proves what you are trying to say. They are 911 myths that are not true.


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## Njaco (Jan 18, 2008)

TO, I'm just a tad touchy with this subject. I well remember freaking out for about 24 hours until I knew my relatives were safe. Not just NY but DC also. It was crazy. Thats why I started the post cause I thought it was pretty nuts. Another reason why is I only found out about this conspiracy junk until now - tried to stay away, not great memories of that day.

Sorry Henk, it just cuts to the bone.


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## ToughOmbre (Jan 18, 2008)

Njaco said:


> TO, I'm just a tad touchy with this subject. I well remember freaking out for about 24 hours until I knew my relatives were safe. Not just NY but DC also. It was crazy. Thats why I started the post cause I thought it was pretty nuts. Another reason why is I only found out about this conspiracy junk until now - tried to stay away, not great memories of that day.
> 
> Sorry Henk, it just cuts to the bone.



Chris, Can't blame you for that. I was working in Newark that day on the eighth floor of Verizon HQ with a clear view across the meadowlands toward Manhattan from my office window. Saw the whole thing live from the second plane on. Chaos in Newark as well as everybody left work to race home. NJ Turnpike closed for security reasons past Newark Airport. Crazy day. 

What's sick are the hundreds of 9/11 conspiracy theory websites that have sprung up, and unbelievably, there are people who think they are true. 

Disgraceful  

TO


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## evangilder (Jan 18, 2008)

Henk, people have been very light on you, especially when you consider that this is a very touchy subject for us Americans. You can believe what you want to believe, but to make a statement with no way to back it up and then say "I don't want to talk about it" is cowardly.


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## comiso90 (Jan 18, 2008)

I posted some links that refute the conspiracy theories... I'd like to hear a counterpoint


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## Henk (Jan 18, 2008)

ToughOmbre said:


> We did learn a few things Chris. Mainly that Henk is visiting too many 9/11 conspiracy websites and has no clue as to what he is talking about.
> 
> And one more thing.....
> 
> ...



Listen do not start with your sh*t with me, to start and take me on personally is not a good idea, who do you think you are


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## ToughOmbre (Jan 18, 2008)

Henk said:


> Listen do not start with your sh*t with me, to start and take me on personally is not a good idea, who do you think you are



I think evangilder said it best in his previous post....

"You can believe what you want to believe, but to make a statement with no way to back it up and then say "I don't want to talk about it" is *cowardly*."

TO


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## Henk (Jan 18, 2008)

You see, how the hell can I "talk" to you if you just do not give a sh*t? So why waste my time to talk to a death person. I never tried to convince anyone, I only said I thought and I think.


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## Njaco (Jan 18, 2008)

Henk, don't want to start no war. I am curious and would like to give you another point of view.

I had a relative who worked as a paralegal in one of the buildings close to WTC. She was there and what she told me after I can not imagine going through.

Another relative worked in DC as a housing rep for officers and staff at the Pentagon and other installations near there. She lived only a few blocks away. She told me nobody knew what was coming and that it was pure chaos. Thats what I'm remembering now is she telling me nobody knew in the one place that could probably plan an action like this if it was true.

Personally my work allows my status as Essential Personnel and we were put on alert and then made ready to go to Ground Zero. I work with the police departments and rescue with dogs - body dogs - and we were going up if we got the ok. By then thousands of people were descending on NY to help and after several days we weren't needed. A couple police dogs I know did go with their handlers and one just recently died (the dog) and the vets say possible from the rescue effort.

I say all this because with all the people I was in contact with - first hand - from Pentagaon to Emergency Response, nobody knew. No warning, nothing. It this was planned, this big an operation, and nobody knew. I don't believe it was a conspiracy.

It doesn't make sense to me.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 19, 2008)

Henk said:


> Listen do not start with your sh*t with me, to start and take me on personally is not a good idea, who do you think you are



Henk calm the **** down right now!!!!

What the hell did you expect from people??? It is a very touchy subject among Americans and we have taken it very easy on you. No one has personally attacked you or anything.

You stated you thought it was done by the government. People have shown you facts that prove it is wrong. Rather than show them facts that might prove you are right (which I dont think you can) you get all pissy.

As Eric said, it is very cowardly of you...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 19, 2008)

Henk said:


> You see, how the hell can I "talk" to you if you just do not give a sh*t? So why waste my time to talk to a death person. I never tried to convince anyone, I only said I thought and I think.



Henk go back and read all the posts. Actually take the time to read them okay.

No one attacked you personally. You started a touchy subject, now dont walk away from it.


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## SeaSkua (Jan 19, 2008)

Wurger said:


> What about Coventry during WW2?



Are you saying the BOMBS were dropped by BRITISH planes????  
CHURCHILL agonized over the information but he decided that they could not evacuate COVENTRY without destroying the ability to use ENIGMA in the future.


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## Henk (Jan 19, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Henk go back and read all the posts. Actually take the time to read them okay.
> 
> No one attacked you personally. You started a touchy subject, now dont walk away from it.



Walk away? I told you I do not have my prove anymore so why still stay and explain. 

I am not a coward, I know when to fight a battle and when to just leave it be.

I do not want to f*ck up my whole experience with this forum just over this.

NOW leave it be and lets just carry on talking some other sh*t we love to do here.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 19, 2008)

Not to jump into the frey but I'm going to post some stuff from another site I subscribe to....

Conspiracy chasers would want the public to believe that flight 93 was shot down by F-16s. Here's some food for thought....

The F-16 is a multi role fighter used for air-to-air combat and ground support. Most bases that operate this aircraft train for the multi role mission and prepare for overseas deployment. 

The F-15 is the USAF primary air-to-air fighter and the backbone of air defense of the Continental US. During the cold war years, F-15s normally did the intercepting of snooping Russian aircraft. Their role is basically the same.

MY POINT - F-16s will normally not be on alert for interception or scramble!

911 Research does do a good point of showing this but fails to mention F-16s are normally not under the control of NORAD or on air defense alert, that job is for the F-15....

9-11 Research: Air Defense
Good job but some errors.

From the site - "At 10:01 AM the FAA ordered the 180th Fighter Wing out of Swanton, Ohio, to scramble F-16 fighters." The FAA has no authority to "order" fighters to scramble - that lies with the USAF (DUH!)

This unit was the only F-16 unit close enough to perform an intercept over Pennsylvania in the shown time frame although F-16s as far away as Andrews and Michigan were now being called. One controller from New Hampshire reports another F-16 was in the area as well. Flight 93 crashed at 10:06, that gave the fighters at from the 180th FW (the closest ones) 5 1/2 minutes to scramble, get to altitude, pick up the target and shoot down flight 93 like some alleged.

Let's see, the F-16s top speed is 1,321 mph. From the base to the crash point of flight 93 is 233 miles. That would of meant the aircraft had to take off and immediately go to full after-burner and reach the target in 5 minutes - If the F-16 went full afterburner climbed up to altitude and shoot down flight 93, it would of also meant that the aircraft was performing within the lower part of it's combat radius which is about 330 miles. That means the aircraft might would not make it back to Toledo.

The closest place to land would of been Pittsburgh, but no conspiracy chasers jump on this...

It would of also meant that if the intercept would of happened under the noses of Pittsburgh International Airport and other ATC Centers - if a shoot down would of occurred, someone would of heard it...

The final tally - every East Coast ATC center is attempting to talk to flight 93 - several F-15s and F-16 in the air. No one admits to a shoot down order although the first two F-15 pilots on scene were told that flight 93 was shot down (I even remember that being reported in the chaos and confusion of the day) and no ground crews who service these aircraft (who happen to be mainly non-career enlisted personnel) admit to any weapons being deployed after all of this. - THIS IS THE BIGGEST HOLE OF ALL WITH REGARDS TO FLIGHT 93! - Someone explain this to me!!!!!

4,000 Jews, 1 Lie

Tracking an Internet hoax.

By Bryan Curtis
Posted Friday, Oct. 5, 2001, at 8:30 PM ET 

[Addendum, Oct. 7, 4 p.m. ET: Osama Bin Laden essentially claimed credit for the Sept. 11 attacks in a statement recorded before Sunday's strikes on Afghanistan. "America was hit by God in one of its softest spots," he said. "If it continues with this policy [against Iraq and the PLO], the sons of Islam will not stop their struggle."]

It is an article of faith in many Muslim countries that Israel was behind the attack on the World Trade Center, with many citing as their evidence a "news report" that 4,000 Israelis called in sick from their jobs at the World Trade Center on Sept. 11. The allegation has now appeared on scores of Web sites and bulletin boards, has been reproduced in e-mails too numerous to count, and has run as fact in newspapers and news broadcasts in the Middle East. Where did this charge originate, and what path did it take around the world?

First, a question begs: Where did the precise figure of 4,000 Israelis come from? According to the Anti-Defamation League's Web site, on Sept. 11, the Israeli Embassy released a statement expressing concern about the 4,000 Israeli nationals living in New York City—few of whom actually worked in the World Trade Center. At press time, the embassy couldn't confirm this statement.

According to Nexis and the Google search engine, the first mention of Israeli involvement in the attacks came in a Sept. 17 report on Lebanon's Al-Manar Television. The Los Angeles Times reports that the terrorist group Hezbollah has free access to Al-Manar's airwaves, and the station's Web site claims that the station exists to "stage an effective psychological warfare with the Zionist enemy."

The next day at 6:26 a.m., the American Web site Information Times published an article headlined "4,000 Jews Did Not Go To Work At WTC On Sept. 11," and credited it to an "AL-MANAR Television Special Investigative Report." This was not the first time that Information Times had pointed the finger at Israel. The day after the attacks, it warned in an article that the "terrorist government of Israel … cannot be ruled out" as a suspect. Information Times purports to be edited by Syed Adeeb from the eighth floor of the National Press Club at 549 15th St. NW, Washington, DC, 20045. The Press Club says it has no such tenant and repeated messages sent to the e-mail address for Syed Abeed listed on the site bounce back as undeliverable. Directory assistance for Washington, D.C., has no listing for Information Times.

The "4,000 Jews" page is easily forwarded as e-mail, and this may explain the message's rapid dissemination.

The Information Times article makes three charges:

1) Citing the Jordanian newspaper Al-Watan, it alleges that "Israelis remained absent [on Sept. 11] based on hints from the Israeli General Security Apparatus, the Shabak." No media source except Al-Manar claims to have actually seen the editorial in Al-Watan, which the Jordanian Embassy's information bureau describes as an obscure newspaper with a low circulation. Al-Watan's source? Unnamed "Arab diplomatic sources." (A few newspapers called Al-Watan have Web sites—click here, here, and here to visit them—though none seem to be based in Jordan.)

2) Citing the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharonot, it alleges that Israeli secret police prevented Prime Minister Ariel Sharon from traveling to New York City on Sept. 11.

3) Citing the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, it alleges that the FBI arrested five Israelis who were caught filming the WTC's smoking rubble from their office building roof. (They were being held on the charge of "puzzling behavior.")

No other media outlet that can be searched through Nexis or Google has confirmed the Information Times claims about Sharon and the five Israelis.

Within days, the story appeared in newspapers around the world. A remarkably similar version appeared under the byline of Irina Malenko in Russia's Pravda on Sept. 21. Pravda removed the article from its Web site a few hours after posting, calling it a "great and foolish mistake," but it can still be accessed here. On Sept. 21, the Chicago Tribune reported that a Pakistani paper, which it did not name, had published a similar account. In his Sept. 23 Slate "Dispatch" from Islamabad, Peter Maass reported that a local pro-Taliban politician repeated the 4,000 Jews claim at an anti-U.S. rally. On Sept. 26, Pakistan's Business Recorder printed the story about 4,000 Jews in language almost identical to the original Al-Manar article as a letter to the editor under the name "Hakeem." The same day, the New York Times reported that the allegation had appeared in a newsletter published by an Islamic charity and in lesson plans prepared by Egyptian middle-school teachers. On Oct. 4, the Chicago Tribune spotted the allegation in a Saudi paper, which it did not name. In the Oct. 8 issue of Time, Tim McGirk reported from Pakistan that the story had swept through the country's mosques and Urdu newspapers.

On Sept. 28, USA Today repeated the claim in the context that "Muslims the world over" had tried to pin the attack on Israel. USA Today did not explain the origin of the charge. The Village Voice did the same on Oct. 2. The hoax-debunking site Snopes.com assailed the story, as well. With the Web as a weapon, a lie spreads quickly and easily. With the Web as a corrective tool, the same lie becomes much easier to bat away.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 19, 2008)

Pt 2

NOTE THE DATE OF THIS REPORT

Philippines: U.S. missed 9/11 clues years ago

Allegation follows congressional report faulting spy agencies

From Maria Ressa
CNN
Saturday, July 26, 2003 Posted: 5:14 PM EDT (2114 GMT)


MANILA, Philippines (CNN) – CNN has obtained documents showing a Philippine police report about the terrorist plot of September 11, 2001 that was given to the FBI in 1995 and the U.S. agency's summary document of the report, which left out any mention of the plot. 

Philippine authorities said the United States did not take their information seriously. The documents come on the heels of a congressional report that indicates the U.S. intelligence community missed several clues that could have added up to the terrorist plot before the attacks. (Full story) 

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of those attacks and the highest-ranking al Qaeda operative in custody, told his U.S. interrogators that planning for the attacks on New York and Washington began in 1994 in the Philippine capital. 

In the mid-1990s, Mohammed, who had become al Qaeda's third-highest-ranking leader by the time he was arrested in 2003, lived in an apartment in Manila. (Mohammed profile) 

Mohammed told his U.S. interrogators that he and his nephew, Ramzi Yousef -- who is serving a life sentence for his role in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing -- began plotting what would become the September 11 attacks seven years earlier. 

Test runs in the Philippines


In 1994, the two tested airport scurity -- Mohammed on a flight from Manila to Seoul, South Korea; Yousef on a flight from Hong Kong to Taipei, Taiwan. 

Mohammed told authorities that the two men converted 14 bottles of contact lens solution into bombs by replacing their contents with an inexpensive liquid explosive readily available in the Philippines. 

In place of a detonator, Mohammed said, he taped a metal bolt to the arch of his foot. He then wore jewelry and clothing with metal to confuse airport security. 

He said he and Yousef placed condoms in their bags to support their cover story that they were traveling to meet women. 

Later that same year, Yousef would plant and explode a bomb on a Philippine Airlines flight during another test run. He had boarded a jet in Manila under an assumed name, planted the device under a seat and left the aircraft during a layover. The bomb exploded during the next leg of the flight, killing one passenger and injuring 10 others, but the plane remained intact and made an emergency landing in Japan. 

The two were set to carry out a plot to bomb 11 U.S.-bound airliners over the Pacific in a 48 hour span -- attacks that the FBI estimates would have killed 4,000 people. 

Those attacks were prevented when an accidental fire in their safe house apartment led to their cell being broken up. 

Authorities searching Yousef's laptop computer found detailed plans to blow up the airliners -- including flight numbers and schedules, and bombmaking formulas. 

Mohammed was indicted in the United States in 1996 for his alleged involvement in that conspiracy. That indictment landed him on the FBI's list of 22 Most-Wanted Terrorists, issued in October 2001. 

Only one member of the cell was arrested in the raid: Abdul Hakim Murad, Yousef's classmate, who had trained as a commercial pilot at four aviation schools in the United States. 

Col. Rodolfo Mendoza, a counterterroism expert with the Philippines police, interrogated Murad and discovered what he believes is the blueprint for September 11. 

In addition, the plots uncovered in Manila included one to assassinate the U.S. president and plans to attack nuclear power plants. 

"They had a plan to crash the airplane -- the commercial jetliner -- into the specific target," Mendoza said. "They have done it after seven years. So I believe all these plans, old plans, are supposed to be executed." 

The 1995 report listed the World Trade Center and the Pentagon as targets. 

Philippine authorities say all the information they discovered was handed over to the FBI. 

Top al Qaeda figure

Mohammed told interrogators that the 1995 operation was his first for al Qaeda. 

Born in Kuwait in either March 1964 or April 1965, Mohammed's al Qaeda roots run deep and wide 

Through the years, he passed along the lessons he learned to agents he controlled, including so-called millennium bomber Ahmed Ressam and shoe bomber Richard Reid. 

Ressam, 34, has been convicted of conspiracy to detonate a suitcase bomb at Los Angeles International Airport on New Year's Eve of 1999. He is awaiting sentencing. Reid pleaded guilty to trying to blow up an airliner with explosives concealed in his shoes, and in February was sentenced to life in prison. 

The United States accuses Mohammed of being involved in planning large-scale al Qaeda operations, from the bombing of the USS Cole in a Yemeni harbor in 2000 to the bombing of the bar frequented by westerners in Bali, Indonesia, last year. 

Al Qaeda expert Rohan Gunaratna said Mohammed ordered the killing of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, who was kidnapped in Pakistan in 2002 while researching an article and later found dead. 

Al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah, who is in U.S. custody, has named Mohammed as a key financial figure in the September 11 attacks.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 19, 2008)

Pt3
The largest building to ever be destroyed by controlled demolition was the Hudson Building in Detroit, Michigan, on October 24, 1998. The building was 25 stories, over 450 feet. it took almost a ton of explosives and several weeks to accomplish this task...

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/content_pages/record.asp?recordid=53136

The same company who took out the Hudson Building also took out the Kingdome in Seattle. It took four months to do that one - Controlled Demolition Inc. (CDI) had Aman’s drilling subcontractor drill 5,905 holes for CDI’s explosive placements in the tension and compression rings, roof ribs, columns and support structure under the Kingdome. During loading operations, CDI laid 21.6 miles of detonating cord and placed more than 4,700 lb. of explosives in critical locations to control the fall of the structure and reduce vibration.

???????????????????

And even another large structure, the Sears merchandise Center in Philadelphia which was destroyed in 1994 REQUIRED OVER 12,000 POUNDS OF EXPLOSIVES!!

One could see the amount of work it takes to set up a building for controlled demolition. As stated previously, even if it was an inside job the resources to carry it out would of been enormous, let alone accomplishing it undetected. On any given day, some 50,000 people worked in the towers with another 200,000 passing through as visitors. The complex was so large that it had its own zip code: 10048.

Here's a picture of a wired building. Do you think this could of been hidden from 50,000 WTC tenant's?!?!?







It would of been impossible to accomplish this undetected. In addition it was documented by Filipino intelligence officials that a plot to hijack aircraft and fly them into buildings was floating around in the terrorist community since the mid-90's. I would agree to this whole thing being a conspiracy if these facts didn't exists, but they do....

At this point what should be looked at is the intelligence failures, the resources of those who attempt to carry attacks like this, and the most important, stopping those who perpetuate Muslim radicals (the ******* clerics) from attacking the US...


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## Njaco (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks, Flyboy


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## machine shop tom (Jan 20, 2008)

I got into in in another forum with a 9-11 conspiracy theorist. There is no reasoning with these fellows. They get their information from 9-11 conspiracy sites that conveniently leave out pertinent information and common sense. For every "truth" that this fellow posted, I was able to post a factual counter to almost every one. 

Of course, there are unanswered questions and gaps in the contradictions in the official record. BUT, in an event of the magnitude 9-11, there are bound to be controversies and finger-pointing.

The huge preponderance of factual evidence leads reasonable people to the obvious conclusion that 9-11 did indeed happen pretty much as we now understand that it did. 

One should also remember that the conspiracy business is very lucrative and those in it really don't have to prove anything to make a buck. Or a hundred thousand bucks.

tom


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## Konigstiger205 (Jan 20, 2008)

Going back to the coincides of 9/11...you know that movie 23....well we can now make the movie 11...


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 20, 2008)

machine shop tom said:


> One should also remember that the conspiracy business is very lucrative and those in it really don't have to prove anything to make a buck. Or a hundred thousand bucks.
> 
> tom



The pinheads that made "Loose Change" are on their 3rd revision. I think their latest trash admits that there was no controlled demolition at the WTC.

If I get a chance I'll find some debunking info at the Pentagon site including the identification of aircraft parts with the actual aircraft Illustrated Parts Manual (IPM).


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## lesofprimus (Jan 20, 2008)

Henk, u need to head to a different area of this board, cause ur presence here in this thread is not conducive to u staying a respected member here, opinion or not....

This pic alone should shut up most of this conversation:






Heres the plane....










Here it is just before the Trade Center...





Its the same fu*kin plane....

Maybe this is closer to the pic that these conspiracy freaks value......


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## Henk (Jan 20, 2008)

Les, did I have anything more to say or did I say anything more about this, I said I left it be, did you not read my posts?


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## plan_D (Jan 20, 2008)

Joe...if the USAF had the EE Lightning that theory of aircraft shooting down Flight 93 might be closer to the truth - they would have got there in time !


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 20, 2008)

plan_D said:


> Joe...if the USAF had the EE Lightning that theory of aircraft shooting down Flight 93 might be closer to the truth - they would have got there in time !


They would of gotten there in time....

But would they have had the fuel to get back!!!


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## plan_D (Jan 20, 2008)

They'd have had enough fuel to get back to the ground... but would end up in a few pieces, especially since it was 330 miles away !


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 20, 2008)

plan_D said:


> They'd have had enough fuel to get back to the ground... but would end up in a few pieces, especially since it was 330 miles away !





Here's some info from snoopes about the Pentagon...

Urban Legends Reference Pages: Rumors of War (Hunt the Boeing!)

Even these folks changed their tunes...

http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 20, 2008)

Pt2

_"Mr. Metcalf, 

I'd like to reply to your article on the Pentagon and aircraft debris, Warning - this won't be a short reply! Please visit this link for some explanations and photos I provided to threads at Free Republic which assist in answering some of the questions from the non-believers: http://www.fitzweb.com/military/pentagon/index.html My website posts primarily respond to people thinking the act was a truck bomb, not an aircraft. 

I'm Chief Master Sergeant John Monaccio, I'm the senior Air Force enlisted police officer for the Air Force. I was in the Pentagon on Sep 11th, in room 1B461, when we were attacked. I personally participated in rescue and recovery operations immediately after the attack, and for days afterwards, and have direct observations of many details not mentioned previously, and of what I claim in this e-mail. 

The French web site's questions have a validity due to the restrictions (my word) on news coverage and photos from the site - you don't get the entire picture from what's been released. I would suggest looking at the questions from a different angle to see why there was such a disparity in coverage from WTC and the Pentagon, thus leading to questions. 

From the beginning, WTC was an open book with continual coverage, the Pentagon was not. The Pentagon houses 25,000 people, most of whom work on classified information in the routines of their day. The attack blew unimaginable amounts of classified documents and other classified media into open areas. Security containers were dislodged, sensitive operations areas blown open, and classified computers and papers littered the site. The raging fires created drafts carrying classified papers into the air and distributing them everywhere on the grounds of the Pentagon . 

The corresponding law enforcement response brought in agents from every possible three letter abbreviated force, many who work undercover or covert operations. Protecting their identity is a concern so they can live to fight another battle another day. 

I suggest those are the reasons why access to photos, videos, etc., have been limited. For example, I was in room 1B461. The plane's inertia carried aircraft remains all the way through the building coming to rest on the outside walls of our offices. We discovered cockpit wreckage at our feet while attempting to rescue people from a Navy operations area. 

I worked with the FBI gathering evidence in an attempt to confirm the company the airliner was from so they could track it back to it's point of origin. While doing so, we found certain religious items from the hijackers. The evidence collection process was filmed by a civilian crew working for Arlington County. The crew filmed the evidence amongst reams of classified information at the scene. Similar problems with classified existed everywhere. Photographers had the same problems of any picture they took on scene. 

Now to the questions: 

1. The first satellite image shows the section of the building that was hit by the Boeing. In the image, the second ring of the building is also visible. It is clear that the aircraft only hit the first ring. The four interior rings remain intact. They were only fire-damaged after the initial explosion. 
How can a Boeing 757-200 weighing nearly 100 tons and traveling at a minimum speed of 250 miles an hour only have damaged the outside of the Pentagon? 
The answer is that the plane did damage the rest of the building, it just didn't cause it to collapse. The plane hit at a 45% angle to the face of the building. An impact hole was clearly made (reference the web site photos), and the aircraft and wreckage continued some 240' through the rings of the building coming to rest in A&E Drive. The engines were buried inside the building and they took many of the support columns out that resulted in the eventual collapse of the E-Ring (in conjunction with the fires). The entirety of the E, D, C rings were demolished as a result of the blast effect from the plane. Check this site from the project engineers for more information: DefenseLINK Briefing Slide: DoD News Briefing, Thursday, 07 Mar 2002 - 11:00 am Click on the various links for more photos and explanations. 

2. The next two photographs show the building just after the attack. The aircraft apparently only hit the ground floor. The four upper floors collapsed toward 10:10 am. The building is 78 feet high. 
How can a plane 44.7 feet high, over 155 feet long, with a wingspan of almost 125 feet and a cockpit almost 12 feet high, crash into just the ground floor of this building? 
You can see from the pictures I posted that the plane did just crash into the front of the building. There are corresponding holes in the building to meet the fuselage and a limited portion of the wings and tails section. The plane did not strike the ground first, it hit right below the second floor of the E-Ring. 


3. Look at the photograph of the lawn in front of the damaged building. 
Where is the debris? Any debris! Did it all disintegrate on contact? 
The debris is not visible in the pictures because of the sheer destructiveness of the impact against the scale and depth of field of the photos. Look at my posts and you'll see a level of detail that is much better. Critical to recall is the inertia of the mass that was the plane. Look closely at the released video and you'll see in the frames pieces of the airliner actually flying over the top of the Pentagon's E-Ring._


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 20, 2008)

Pt3

_4. There are photographs, which show representations of a Boeing 757-200 superimposed on the section of the building that was hit. 
What happened to the wings of the aircraft? Why isn't there any wing damage? 

There was wing damage, but remember the plane's wings are 1/8" aluminum against solid granite. The wings disintegrated and spewed small parts and pieces across some 800 feet by 300+ feet of area to the front of the building. If you look closely at the pictures I posted, you'll see an impact hole that basically accounts for the fuselage and to width of where the engines were on the wings. 

5. One journalist asked: "Is there anything left of the aircraft at all?" At a press conference the day after the tragedy, Arlington County Fire Chief Ed Plaugher said, "First of all, the question about the aircraft, there are some small pieces of aircraft visible from the interior during this fire-fighting operation. I'm talking about, but not large sections." 
The follow-up question asked, "In other words, there's no fuselage sections and that sort of thing?" Plaugher replied, "You know, I'd rather not comment on that. We have a lot of eyewitnesses that can give you better information about what actually happened with the aircraft as it approached. So we don't know. I don't know." 
Wait a minute! Time after time (Oklahoma City bombing, TWA Flight 800, Flight 93 et al.) we are told not to depend on eyewitnesses? 
When asked by a journalist: "Where is the jet fuel?" The chief responded, "We have what we believe is a puddle right there that the what we believe is to be the nose of the aircraft." 

These are red herrings taken from a news conference just a day after the event. The Chief was not well enough informed at that point to answer those questions. There was a debris field in the front of the E-Ring littered with small pieces of the plane. The fires were still raging 1600+ degrees in other areas of the building where the plane passed and fueled by material in the building. The aviation gas was vaporized on contact with the building when the wings were ruptured. The mass of the liquid was carried forward deep into the building to the point where it started fires 240 feet into the building and up to the 5th floor. There were no puddles of aviation gas because they were all burning. One look at the color of the smoke rising would tell anyone who's aware of aircraft fires all they need to know. 


Notwithstanding the collective myopia in not being able to see what we are being told, there are more questions. 
One pilot wrote, "I flew the Boeing 747 jumbo jet, but not this 757 from what I see (or don't see) looking at these pictures, it's hard to pick out aircraft parts: 
· · The wingtip alone would have sheared off and bounced back into the street, the two engines would have penetrated deeper into the wall and framing structure further than any other part making a definite hole. 
That's partially what happened. People are forgetting the aircraft was traveling at 350+ mph. When it rammed the solid granite, the mass carried it and the engines through the E-Ring, but the less sturdy parts of the aircraft were immediately reduced to scrap. 

· · The belly of the aircraft contains, fuel tanks, baggage, mailbags, and cargo; none of this type debris can be seen. 
Correct. That debris was carried forward into the building's other rings and offices. 

· Assuming 8,600 gallons of kerosene fuel at a specific gravity of approx 6.9 lbs/gal (temperature considered) weight of the fuel would be close to 60,000 lbs and would splatter everywhere. 
True, and it did just that. The initial fireball seen on the tape was not the entirety of the blast. Much of the fuel was carried forward and into the hallways, corridors, rings, and offices. The fuel ignited a split second later and vaporized many workers at their desks. The ferocity of the fires on the outside of the building were caused by the aviation fuel. 
· Where are the seats, those with passengers buckled in would be ripped out of the floor, for that matter, where are the passengers? 
The passengers were carried into the building with the aircraft. Some were blown out and carried over the top of the E-Ring, still strapped into their seats. I believe all the bodies from the Pentagon were recovered and identified, I think there were one or two passengers (and this was as of October) not yet identified. The well being of the families dictated all aspects of casualty recovery be strictly handled with the care of the deceased paramount. 

· I have never seen an aircraft accident where the aircraft evaporated upon impact, water, land or buildings. 
I'm sure in this pilots experience that's correct. I've been to many where what you think and what you see are different. An accident in AZ in the 80's had a KC-135 tanker being hit in the co-pilots seat by a small private plane. This Boeing 707 jet nose-dived and made a hole into the desert. The debris field was incredibly tiny. Correspondingly, an accident in 1999 with a much smaller F-16 was spread over tens of acres simply from the angle of impact - that accident also did not have too many large pieces. 
· If these pictures were taken within 3 days after 9-11, there would have been definite remains of parts. I don't see any. 
Refer to earlier comments. 
I don't know what else to say except that a lack of critical thinking has been applied by some of these folks, especially the tens of witnesses that saw the plane strike. 

My apologies for grammar, continuity, etc., I'm trying to do this quickly from work. I'd appreciate it if my words would stay between us. 

V/R 

Chief Monaccio 

CMSgt John Monaccio 
HQ USAF/XOFM" _

This site has some photos I never seen...

Pentagon debris - Debunk911myths


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jan 20, 2008)

Joe you can show proof to these people all day long and they will still not believe it. 

They are either unintelligent or they are sheep.


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## wilbur1 (Jan 20, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Joe you can show proof to these people all day long and they will still not believe it.
> 
> They are either unintelligent or they are sheep.



Unfortunatly so very true


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## ToughOmbre (Jan 20, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Joe you can show proof to these people all day long and they will still not believe it.
> 
> They are either unintelligent or they are sheep.



Proof, evidence, facts and truth are not what the conspiracy believers are about. 

Some of them may be kooks, but make no mistake, for most of them hating America/hating their own country is their one and only agenda. 

TO


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 20, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> Joe you can show proof to these people all day long and they will still not believe it.
> 
> They are either unintelligent or they are sheep.




It is funny though - a friend of my brother in law was totally behind the consparicy theory. After just discussing the WTC situation about wiring the building under the noses of over 100,000 people he changed his tune.

For 9-11 to happen the way the consparicy chasers say it would of taken at least 5 years and would of left several thousands witnesses to the event. 

It funny, the most vocal people who were front row and center of this controversy hardly say anything - NYC Police and Firemen. It there is any group who would speak up over any real cover up it would be them.


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## Njaco (Jan 20, 2008)

Joe, thats why I posted what I did. As close as I am to that community, there was nada about any conspiracy or that anyone knew.


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## machine shop tom (Jan 20, 2008)

FLYBOYJ said:


> ....
> It funny, the most vocal people who were front row and center of this controversy hardly say anything - NYC Police and Firemen. It there is any group who would speak up over any real cover up it would be them....



Of course, the conspiracy involves the intimidation and payoff of such people...... 

tom


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 20, 2008)

Here's another funny one....

I was on one site and this guy who claimed to be an ATP was giving his perspective of the whole thing based on his many years of flying corporate aircraft. He had a link to some site he was reporting. I don't remember his name but I looked him up on the FAA database for airmen and he wasn't listed. When I queried him on this he claimed he removed his name because "the government was watching him." When I told him that it could be a possible criminal offense for lying about an airman's certificate or rating he never showed up on the site anymore!


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## Njaco (Jan 20, 2008)

typical


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## razor1uk (Apr 2, 2012)

I suppose the great great grand children of your nation might learn more one way or another, in 100+ years when info becomes unclassified. 

I don't believe most of the possible conspiracitorial stuff around this truamatic event (as it was also for many other citizens of other nations whom also died during it), but I also don't think there has been the percieved expected level of transparency. 

I do think there's some things that seem so unexplainable that for want of any more solid info that seems to make more sence than conflicting and differing reports by media and officials, people will naturally naysay from which ever side(s) they view themselves upon to those things they feels fits closer to their percieved opinion. I am as guilty of this this, as anyone else is.

But I'd also say the vehmency of people (not meaing those here onsite percé I might add,) which say that others of the same nation, are traitors, commie/liberal-scum or un-patriotic etc, as many US media persons/outlets and other sites often seem to do and have done, just because they ask raise questions about/for knowledge the actions taken (or not-taken) for an humainly horrendously terrible and so unthinkable an event(s) be they right or wrong is wrong in itself too.

It can be hard for some to accept that a small group of people with seemingly poorly trained pilots and box cutters could do such, without some sort of governmental aid, or more like governmental ingnorance, as they assumed the almighty power of state with all its manpower and percieved oversight failed unfortunatly in a most spectacular way for them and their country.

Surely asking question, be they difficult or contensious, is the among one most patriotic things that a person could do to ensure their country government, agencies, politicians and the like act as it supposed/percieved to 'for the people', isn't it written in your Constitution that loyal citizens should and must do just that.
And if it turns out afterwards that the federal/state/official/publc servant/whomever else did act rightly, then all citizens can be safe that they did their duty as a citizen.
Wasn't that one of the biggest reasons why the US fought for its independance, to be allowed to vote and to ask such questions to ensure its transparency to all within it for the sake of its people. 

Please also because of this, do not think that I would wish ill on persons serving within military forces involved in operations foisted upon them, as some might choose to think of me, nor take that as a sign of evil or hatred against their government, nation or culture; if most went along with the spin/propaganda of government or not asking about any many things, you could end up with a despotic regime akin to Hitlers.

As for Coventry, Churchill and the War Cabinate (sounds like a cupboard painted in camo to me) decided to sacrifice it, to delude the Germans into thinking that we had not deciphered some of its codes (following the clandestine capturing of an intact enigma machine from a U-boat), so we could keep listening to them; otherwise they'd have changed there code indexes/machines, or invented better ones and possibly changed a load of tactical strategies as well...


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## Matt308 (Apr 2, 2012)

Two words... Occam's Razor.


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## oldcrowcv63 (Apr 2, 2012)

Without any reference to the validity or lack thereof of this thread topic nor to diminish its seriousness: Whenever you feel overwhelming anger at something (you consider) idiotic that someone has just posted: Please, for the benefit of yourself and all, recall and practice the following routine. It may help defuse an otherwise tense situation: 


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYoHNl5w7vM_


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## GrauGeist (Apr 2, 2012)

Perhaps the frustration of the helplessness of such a massive tragedy is inflamed when a ludicris, baseless conspiracy (or many) is rubbed all over the wounds.

My girlfriend is from Eastern Europe and they all believe that it was Israel that did it. I had to explain to her (and showed her authenticated sources) disputing that idiotic theory.

What gets me, though, is how seemingly intelligent humans can be spoon-fed such hopelessly inaccurate information, and actually accept it as gospel without even trying to look at factual information that clearly shows the contrary.

The 911 conspiracy addicts are about as hard-headed with thier beliefs as are the chem-trail worshippers, etc...and no matter how much hard evidence you show them proving those conspiracies wrong, you may as well be trying to teach a spider monkey how to change a lightbulb...it just aint gonna happen...


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## pbfoot (Apr 2, 2012)

I believe a lot of it has to do with irresposnable media there seems there is no checks and balances , it seems that rather then having quality news it has reverted to who has the news first and then running around with false assumptions.


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## oldcrowcv63 (Apr 2, 2012)

GG, my guess is we've all encountered the phenomena of people we know in denial of something they are predisposed to believe despite evidence to the contrary. I suspect many of us could, more or less, easily fall into the same evidently human trap. 

"That crazy thing *YOU* believe is total BS but *MY* sh*t is totally real man! The list is not only long it is apparently growing. 

UFOs
UFO Abduction
Big Foot
ZOG
Hollow Earthers
Extraterrestrial life 
aliens among us (Grays and the like)
Ancient civilizations with super technology
Multi-shooters in the Kennedy assassination
fraudulent Apollo Moon landings
Comet Elenin's alien spaceship
Global warming and CO2

These are just a few bones of modern contention (without even mentioning the _political hot buttons _of our time) whose advocates argue as ferevently as the opposition. Typically both sides claim support from _the facts._ I am not advocating any of these as either true or false. I'll keep my own counsel, unless you ask.

Of course what makes any item on a list such as this less provocative than the topic of this thread is 2,800+ casualties and any personal connection one may have had.

A personal example: decades ago, in student housing, an arab family lived a floor above us. A conflict between our wives erupted and I had occasion to speak with the husband to resolve the situation cordially. (the wives couldn't resolve it between themselves because his didn't speak english and mine was too pissed off to speak to anyone.) Classic. 
As our conversation became more cordial and expansive, he learned of my USN background and wanted to know if I had participated in the USN's bombing of Syrian and/or Egyptian units during the recently concluded 73 Arab-Israeli war. I informed him politely that no such missions were ever flown. It was my strong conviction that US military units remained on the sidelines. As you might guess, it got pretty interesting. He *knew* beyond a shadow of a doubt that american forces had aided those of Israel during the '73 war, else how could the arabs have been defeated? I think he also trusted that, because I had accepted his offer of a beverage that I would never lie to him. Any lie would have evidently violated a code of guest-ethics of which I was utterly ignorant. I hadn't lied. To the best of my knowledge no such missions were ever flown during any Arab Israeli confrontation. Might have it been flown? I don't know. It's fairly difficult today (unlike Doolittle's time?) to hide an aircraft carrier and its actions, let alone those of its crew, so I remain very skeptical. Why not more adament? Because I am a Vietnam era vet who discovered sometime early in my USN career that my government, unbeknownst to me or my colleagues, possessed an entire air force in action in South East Asia. I am not making any judgement about Air America or its actions, simply saying I didn't know about it and was surprised to learn of its existence until I suppose I needed to know. I would have thought, it's got to be pretty hard to hide an air force but apparently not nearly as difficult as I thought. I and my colleagues were simply *not in a position to know*.

Recently, my well-meaning niece sent me warning emails about the imminent demise of Earth and all its inhabitants due to an oncoming alien invasion masked by Comet Elenin (or something like that). I attempted to dispute her "facts" but, because of my own experience, I am not surprised that, whatever contradictory knowledge of the topic I may cite, she concludes I am simply "*not-in-a posiiton-to-know*." 

Somehow, the *suspension of critical faculties* has grown and spread until its a global phenoma. This behavior has probably always been there, rooted deep in human conciousness. The Engish poet, Coleridge coined the term "_*willing suspension of disbelief*_" for literary forms. I think this has become cross-culturally rooted in the modern everyday world for a variety of reasons. One prominent reason may be the speed with which modern global mass communication spreads knowledge and experience regardless of its accuracy. 

Here's an example of a contributory phenonmena, probably dear to all out hearts on this forum: For centuries, people KNEW humans couldn't fly. In fact everyone knew it except for a few idiots who didn't accept it. Turns out, the idiots were right and everyone else was wrong. I don't know that humanity yet understands the full consequences of that example of mass *cognitive dissonance* (or *disequilibrium*). If something of that magnitude could be false, what else could be true that was thought previously to be false: Going to the moon perhaps? Being able to talk to a person thousands of miles distant? Carrying a pocket sized phone with which you can actually see the person to whom you are talking? If all this magical stuff is true, then _*anything one can imagine is possible*_! People know this because all our societal institutions (media, education, Amercan Idol) keep telling us: _*anything one can dream can be true.*_ 

Overlain on this backdrop, we have the many, major psychological traumas of the last century including examples of betrayal by major trusted institutions and leaders. 

Finally there is the concept of _*relative truth*_. If one believes something is true then it must have some validity or else the believer is being disrespected. If everyone is truly equal than all their individual truths must be equal too. So a woman claiming to be controlled by the Gigantic Cosmic Mind as part of a diabolical US military plot gets national (international? the Canadians were evidently implicated) media coverage. Oh, you didn't hear about it? It was apparently hushed up by the US Army. Clearly.


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## Capt. Vick (Apr 2, 2012)

I find it interesting that people who believe in these conspiracies/weird happenings/strange beasts often site lack of evidence as proof of existence....


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## fubar57 (Apr 2, 2012)

Wouldn't put up with all this conspiracy crap back on my planet.

Geo


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## Capt. Vick (Apr 3, 2012)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## A4K (Apr 3, 2012)

My 20 Hungarian forint: 9/11 was not what it was made out to be at all.

The Pentagon certainly wasn't hit by an airliner atleast, and reinforced towers that size falling so fast (and perfectly!) without additional assisitance is highly suspect. 
Who had how much hand in each part I don't even want to speculate, but I don't buy it.

I sense rather a Titan afraid of losing it's grip on power, especially with the rise of the Arab and Chinese states, and Europe trying to strengthen itself.


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 3, 2012)

I knew 5 people who died at the WTC. Jayson Dahl was a friend of my father in law (pilot flight 93) I also know DOZENS of people involved in the salvage and clean-up. There is no doubt that there were Boeing aircraft salvaged at both crash sites. There were parts 100% identified by outside agencies to confirm and dispel any conspiracy theories. 

Just for the record, when I had about 300 hours flight time I went into a 737 full motion simulator and within 30 minutes I was taking off and landing the aircraft (not to practical test standards,but I was doing it). No doubt in my mind that someone with 20 or 30 hours could do the same and crash it into a building.

911 conspiracy theories are pure nonsense and are just s smokescreen to align ignorance with political and social biases, IMO.


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## oldcrowcv63 (Apr 3, 2012)

A4K said:


> My *20 Hungarian forint*: _9/11 was not what it was made out to be at all._
> 
> The Pentagon certainly wasn't hit by an airliner at least, and reinforced towers that size falling so fast (and perfectly!) without additional assisitance is highly suspect.
> Who had how much hand in each part I don't even want to speculate, but I don't buy it.
> ...



Forint = foreign intelligence? 20 Hungarian = is that 20 hungarians or a unit of the Hungarian mlitary?

Are you (or, in your mind, others) suggesting something else occurred other than what has been portrayed as: 

1. 20 Islamic terrorists hijaking 4 airliners with mass-destructive, suicidal intent? 
2. Two fuel filled airliners crashing into the WTC and bringing it down?
3. One fuel filled airliner crashing into the Pentagon making a substantial hole in the outer wall and wreaking mass destuction in the interior?
4. One slightly less than fuel filled airliner being hijaked and passangers rising against the captors to prevent the carrying out of any plan? 

Or are you perhaps agreeing with some or all of the above but harboring a suspician that the US government or some other non-islamist, non-arab agency was complicit in the events most of us witnessed on TV (either live or in rebroadcast) and many of us witnessed in person? 

If you feel the forum enviroment is too potentially hostile to say publically what you've come to believe, we can go to a private ms. 

Anyone who saw the towers fall is likely to have asked that question at some point. *How did they fall in the way they did*? That's an interesting and legitimate question without any suggestion of a motivating conspiracy. If you investigate and find an answer, great. Mystery solved and end of story. The next step, to assume the existence of a conspiracy, becomes far more difficult and burdensome to the claiment, persistence in the belief may indicate a totally unrelated need on their part to reject what evidence investigation has provided. 

If there is no satisfactory explanation, then conspiracy theories become fair game. I don't know how internationally widespread was the US post event analysis. There was a very significant and public effort made to understand what happened and it exists on the web to this day, I believe. For example:

NOVA: 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPqxJpykW00_

NOVA is typically regarded as a gold standard for accurate reporting of scientific based inquiry. 

A quick look at UTUBE shows many other pro and counter videos. I haven't gone through them all but I suspect many here have and can provide their own list of validating information. 

I can only point to the Pearl Harbor experience as an example of a similar national trauma with global implications and is still troubled by allegations of conspiracy. *Most *of these allegations have been addressed and satisfactory answers obtained. The general story: the Japanese military attacked the US without a violent provocation or forewarning on December 7, 1941 seems to stand up pretty well.

The problem I have with any givernment conspiracy theory is that it assumes a governmental competence that my experience says doesn't exist. It strikes me as far more likely that 20 dedicated terrorists could hatch this plot and be at least partially successful in its execution. 

Matt said it all for me: Occam's razor.

I don't often see my country as a *titan*. More often perhaps as a undisciplined child without a motivation to focus its energy, especially if it tried to pull off this act. Look at the state this country is in right now. It seems far removed from any claim to titanhood.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 3, 2012)

I also know someone who worked right near the Pentagon. He confirmed it for me that it was plane, as he was near it that day. So much for the theory that a plane did not hit the Pentagon...


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## A4K (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm very sorry for your friends Joe, and everyone else who suffered in this tragedy (because that is what it was), but I think that's exactly what we're talking about here - manipulation through emotional ties to victims, and the big built-in Americanism: Patriotism.
Think about it - would people have the same opinion of this if it had happened in Johannesburg, or Stockholm? - Most wouldn't have cared I dare say, there almost certainly would NOT have been a 'war against terrorism' over it.


There very likely was wreckage of atleast one aircraft at the WTC sites (the question remaining which, and why no wingtip vortices?), but I strongly doubt these were the single cause of the towers'collapse. If a reinforced granite structure is strong enough to reduced an aircraft's wing to scrap without leaving a hole, then it's not going to tumble down so fast and cleanly as these did.
- And no airliner parts to be found at the Pentagon site I'll bet - that little manoeuvre more likely took care of the paperwork.
Too many suspicious 'accidents' to eyewitnesses contradicting the 'official' explanation too (including one of the first firemen on the scene who reported finding a body in a cupboard near the basement)..etc, etc

Just too fishy the whole deal IMO.

(Clashed posts: 

'Crow: put it this way - more inclined to agree against than with the official reason, based on what I've read, BUT that's JUST MY OPINION. 
You can believe what you want, but I bet you neither of us know the truth.
As for the 'Foreign Intelligence' comment... this is not a personal bitch slap contest and there was no call for that.

Chris: I don't doubt you mate, but my opinion is based on what I've seen and read.
The footage available on the net dosen't show anything to confirm an aircraft hit (unless it was a missile as some people suggest), and the strange anomolies of the size of the hole, the shape, the way the section collapsed so clean and squarely, no burn marks or damage to adjacent objects,and the fact that the area hit had been 'under renovation, thus devoid of personnel' is are incredibly strange to say the least.


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## pbfoot (Apr 3, 2012)

Its good to know National Enquirer has a Hungarian version


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## michaelmaltby (Apr 3, 2012)

".... would people have the same opinion of this if it had happened in Johannesburg, or Stockholm? - Most wouldn't have cared I dare say, there almost certainly would NOT have been a 'war against terrorism' over it."

Johnannesburg and Stockholm are not the capital of CAPITALISM -- Wall Street, New York is. Where else could the terrorists be sure to kill Americans, Brits, Canadians, Israelis, etc. etc... ?

"... it's not going to tumble down so fast and cleanly as these did" To answer that .... *no architect will ever build skyscrapers like the WTT's again *- absolutely flawed design. The granite is mere veneer - and steel loses strength at the temperatures that jet fuel burns. No mystery to the pancake collapse.

Some people have either too much imagination or too much time.

MM


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## A4K (Apr 3, 2012)

michaelmaltby said:


> Some people have either too much imagination or too much time.
> 
> MM



No need to get personal mate. Don't you have different opinions in Canada?


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## pbfoot (Apr 3, 2012)

A4K said:


> No need to get personal mate. Don't you have different opinions in Canada?


Certainly do but evidence is evidence , videos are certainly a good way to start , as Oldcrow suggested watch the documentary he suggested I believe you'll find it enlightning . I just think its silly to think otherwise . How in hell would it be possible to keep such a thing under wraps I'm sure if there was a conspiracy it would be ne'er impossible to keep it under wraps particularly with the political enviroment in the States. If you are so inclined to believe otherwise I can introduce you to a guy that claims 3 people were shot as they attempted to blow up Peace Bridge on 9/11


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 3, 2012)

A4K said:


> Chris: I don't doubt you mate, but my opinion is based on what I've seen and read.
> The footage available on the net dosen't show anything to confirm an aircraft hit (unless it was a missile as some people suggest), and the strange anomolies of the size of the hole, the shape, the way the section collapsed so clean and squarely, no burn marks or damage to adjacent objects,and the fact that the area hit had been 'under renovation, thus devoid of personnel' is are incredibly strange to say the least.



I will believe someone who was there on the ground, before I believe hogwash written by someone who was not there.

Not trying to insult you, so please don't take it that way. I will however believe people that were there, and my heart, before I believe crap, and that is what I believe it is. Especially since those things contradict what people say that were there.


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## michaelmaltby (Apr 3, 2012)

"... No need to get personal mate"

If the shoe fits ....

MM


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 3, 2012)

Sorry A4K - if you actually saw both sites and the people who were there before and after the attacks there is more to enough evidence to support the reported events. I could go into everything to why the towers fell to the side of the holes at the pentagon and the whole thing is explainable. I even know one of the F-16 pilots who was in the air (without armament) who was accused of shooting down the aircraft at the pentagon.

Popular mechanics magazine did a great job debunking most of this nonsense.


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 3, 2012)

A4K said:


> Think about it - would people have the same opinion of this if it had happened in Johannesburg, or Stockholm?



Presented with the same evidence and what I know about commwercial airliners and their operations, the same opinion.


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## oldcrowcv63 (Apr 3, 2012)

A4K said:


> The big built-in Americanism: Patriotism. Think about it - would people have the same opinion of this if it had happened in Johannesburg, or Stockholm? - Most wouldn't have cared I dare say, _there almost certainly would NOT have been a 'war against terrorism_' over it.



What if South Africa or Sweden possessed the same capability? You may be right, but I have to wonder if any nation with the ability to strike back at Al Quaeda would not have done so. Power is both currupting and enabling. It seems to me that's a burden the US lives with but is rarely acknowledged.



A4K said:


> As for the 'Foreign Intelligence' comment... this is not a personal bitch slap contest and there was no call for that.



A4K, color me honestly confused and perhaps dim. I was simply trying to say "_I didn't understand your post._" I think on that account I remain a bit confused _and probably should have just said that outright._ *My bad.* The last thing I meant to suggest was any sort of _personal bitch slap _ My most sincere apologies for the miscommunication. the hope was to have an open dialogue without judgement where what we think we know can be compared to our sources. My hope was that opening the window will clarify and perhaps mitigate disharmony and misunderstanding. I am puzzled by the wide spread disbelief and the readiness to assume what to me at least appears to be an unlikely hypothesis and seek to understand it.


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## oldcrowcv63 (Apr 3, 2012)

Dim is the operative word or just plain ignorant. I was simply not aware of the _*hungarian denomination forint *_and couldn't figure out what you were trying to say.

I was trying to translate what I took to be a mysterious code, perhaps known to everyone on the forum. 

and I recalled *forint *being an occassional acronym for foreign intellgence. 

Never having heard of the Hungarian forint, I tried to make sense of it by postulating possible meanings. I did not mean any disrespect by the comments. Chalk it up it to my ignorance of foreign currency. (my overseas time was largely spent WestPac, except for brief deployments to Iceland, Great Britain, Azores, Spain and Crete). Besides here we say '2' cents '20' totally threw me. 

A4K, once again, I apologize, I honestly meant no disrespect to you.


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## A4K (Apr 4, 2012)

Ok, I won't comment further here. This is a very sensitive subject for many people worldwide, and I personally would have the [email protected] responsible strung up by the [email protected], whoever they are/were. 

No hard feelings to anyone, I always have and will continue to respect you guys and your opinions. I just refuse to accept the given notion till I've seen all the facts (especially coming from the smiling face of George Bush.) 
You will notice too I never said the US or Al Qaeda deinitely were or weren't responsible, only that there are still too many strange circumstances for this to be called a clean case. 
(The renewal of the Bush family war against Iraq and consequent US posession of the oil certainly did not help the cause either, and is the point at which people started to question the whole scenario.)


One thing MM: I believe you are right - though there are alot of foreigners in Stockholm and Johanesburg, this attack was significant because New York is the capital of capitalism. Not many people believed the 'war against terrorism' line.

(Thanks too Mal, and Joe, I would like to read that article if you have a copy?)


Evan


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## Readie (Apr 4, 2012)

For what its worth I don't buy the conspiracy theories about 9/11 or Lockerbie.
On 9/11 the British were shocked to our core, they said that everyone will remember where they where on that day.
We were outraged.. then we had the london bomb attacks...
Maybe America ,amidst all the carnage, also found out who her real friends are too.
Best wishes
John


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 4, 2012)

A4K said:


> (Thanks too Mal, and Joe, I would like to read that article if you have a copy?)
> 
> 
> Evan



9/11 Conspiracy Theories - Debunking the Myths - World Trade Center - Pentagon - Flight 93 - Popular Mechanics


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## oldcrowcv63 (Apr 4, 2012)

Thanks FJ, Great article... Aside from information that is downright false, one clue to the legitimacy of any claim to a conspiracy or event that stretches credulity? When it contains statements expressing either absolute (but unwarranted) certainty or an utterly unprovable inference. Sometimes found in unlikely combination:

examples from the PM article:

1. "_*Without a doubt, Flight 93 was shot down,*_" Clearly evidence of an open minded inquiry of the events.

2. The main body of the engine ... was found miles away from the main wreckage site _*with damage comparable to that which a heat-seeking missile would do to an airliner.*_" A dubious but authoritative statement evidently made by a person who has spent a lifetime studying heat seaking missile damage to airliners?? provable? I doubt it. key distractors: "_*comparable to*_" if its "*comparable to*," then obviously, it must be so.


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## A4K (Apr 4, 2012)

Thanks Joe!


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## woljags (Apr 4, 2012)

wow a very heated post and something that i hope never happens again in any country in the world,my wife Chris spent the day crying as the horrors unfolded,no matter who does it what to who, why can't we all learn to live in peace dispite our differences


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## michaelmaltby (Apr 7, 2012)

So tell me A4K - how was 9-11 *NOT *an unprovoked Declaration of War on the United States of America, Capitalism, the Free Market, Christianity and Jewry ...?

MM


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## FLYBOYJ (Apr 7, 2012)

This thread is gone...


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