# Death of Erich Hartmann



## GROCNROLL (May 4, 2005)

Hi all,

I'm wondering if anyone can tell me anything about the death of Erich Hartmann (cause of death, etc.). I know the date but I haven't been able to find out exactly what happened to him. Also, has his 2nd logbook ever been located?


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## DAVIDICUS (May 4, 2005)

Oh, Hartmann ... I thought you said Eric Cartman.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 4, 2005)

He died in 93' at the age of 71, cancer I believe.


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## CharlesBronson (May 4, 2005)

Is say that he adquired a lung decease in the 10 years of forced labor in Russia.


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## GT (May 5, 2005)

Cancelled.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 5, 2005)

Missing Log book?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (May 5, 2005)

FLYBOYJ said:


> He died in 93' at the age of 71, cancer I believe.



Erich Hartmann returned home in the autumn of 1955. He could do nothing but flying, though. That is why he accepted a suggestion from the German government to go to the USA and to train American and German pilots there. He retired in 1970, took a great interest in car racing and organized several piloting schools for young people. Erich Hartmann died in September of 1993 over pneumonia. 



FLYBOYJ said:


> Missing Log book?



He had two complete logbooks with all of his missions and kills. After he was captured the 1st one was recovered but the 2nd one is still missing today. More then likely some poor Russian burned it to make a fire. Its a shame because it would be great to read up on the last part of the war.


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## P38 Pilot (Jun 22, 2005)

Man! I hate what the Russians did too him! Not all of the Germans were Nazi Supporters!


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## P38 Pilot (Jun 22, 2005)

I still hate the russians!


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## GT (Jun 22, 2005)

Update.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 22, 2005)

and watch what you say there P-38 pilot, do you have any reason to hate the russians?? you can't say something like that lightly......


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## P38 Pilot (Jun 22, 2005)

Lancaster kicks ass, have u even read about some of the battles the russians had? The Russians did horrible things to German Women and children and Old men! The Russians have always been Barbaric when it came to war! Then the Russians caused the cold war, created the Berlin Wall and help create two wars that us Americans fought: Korea and Vietnam war!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 23, 2005)

The Russians did not create Vietnam. They had there fingers in it but they did not create it.


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 23, 2005)

It was more the whole communism thing than anything else.

P-38 Pilot, yes, the Russians did terrible things, but so did the Nazis. All countries commited atrocities.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 23, 2005)

P38 Pilot said:


> Lancaster kicks ass, have u even read about some of the battles the russians had? The Russians did horrible things to German Women and children and Old men! The Russians have always been Barbaric when it came to war! Then the Russians caused the cold war, created the Berlin Wall and help create two wars that us Americans fought: Korea and Vietnam war!!!!!!!!!!!!!



US involvement in Viet Nam was initiated by individuals to show the Communist world that at one point the US was willing to make a stand against Communist expansion in Southeast Asia. Those who lit the Viet Nam fuse were Kennedy era Democrats who were attempting to exploit an alleged Republican Party weakness in addressing the Communist expansion issue, one of President Kennedy's campaign issues during the 1960 election. Although well intentioned, the arena and rules of engagement were ill planned and ill executed by individuals who, while highly intelligent, had little or no concept of warfare or the arena the US were about to commit troops to. Civilians, not the military dictated the political and military doctrine and this played into the hands of the Communist who realized the US committed to military engagement on their terms, thus the beginning of the whole debacle!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 23, 2005)

Yeap exactly and not caused by the Russians.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 23, 2005)

Yep - there were plenty of other places and causes to chase. I always wondered what would of happened if the US would of confronted the Soviets during the Hungarian or Czech invasions? To me these were more noble and meaninful causes than Viet Nam. Would it have started WW3 or would of the Soviets capitulated right there? Food for thought!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 23, 2005)

I personally dont think WW3 would have started. I think it would have just been a really big showdown and in the end the Soviets may have pulled out. We will never know though.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 23, 2005)

I then to agree with that. I think the Soviets when confronted, seemed to back down, I think they realized their own liabilities and would not risk armed confrontation unless they were assured victory.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 23, 2005)

and the west is just as much at fault for the cold war, fact is, no one made a huge effort to stop it untill the 80s, as such both side carry some blame........


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 23, 2005)

the lancaster kicks ass said:


> and the west is just as much at fault for the cold war, fact is, no one made a huge effort to stop it untill the 80s, as such both side carry some blame........



Ya know Lanc, that is one of the most brilliant things I've read from you, and I'm not kidding! 8) 

Yes, it wasn't until the 1980s when the "Bear" was stared down and appeasement was ended that things changed. I think the leaders prior were either scared or worried about public opinion about confronting the Soviets!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 24, 2005)

I agree with you. Until the 80's it just seemed as a big showdown. Good Old Reagan with this "Tear Down this Wall" and we are not playing games anymore policy brought an end to the Cold War.

And as what you were saying as they seem to back down when confronted, I completely agree. I think they new that in all out war they would have to confront the US, Britain, Germany, France, Canada, Australia and well basically the whole free world and in the end the only they could hope for was a drawn out conflict. I truely think they too were afraid of the final outcome. No one wants Nuclear Winter.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 25, 2005)

we came damn close though.........


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 25, 2005)

Yes there was some very close moments.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 25, 2005)

Ive worked with some Russians before, and they all seem to look at u kinda funny....


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 25, 2005)

I have worked with Russian air crews when I was in Kosovo and they all seemed all right to me. The were actually kind of funny. There commander walked around the Pristina Airfield with a hat that was so huge. It was like he was using it to show how important he was. Everytime we stayed with them they tried to feed us on a liquid diet of Vodka!


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 25, 2005)

Maybe he was hiding the Vodka in the hat...


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 25, 2005)

I've worked with a few in CA when we put together a Mig-15 and a Mig-21. We would hire former Russian test pilots to do the first flight in these aircraft. They seemed pretty decent and were very funny.

I was at a party with one guy. "Yuri" lived in San Diego - that night he polished off a whole bottle of Absolute without batting an eye. He said he "Liked Finnish Vodka and women."


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 25, 2005)

I dated a Russian girl onse here in Ansbach, Germany. She was a cute petite small girl but here name did not match her body. Her name was "Olga". Anyhow things were great until she cheated on me with another soldier and got pregnant. So I dumped her. Anyhow she got what she deserved he packed up and left back for the States. He did not leave an address or phone number and now she is stuck with his kid. Shortly after this I started dating my now wife!


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 28, 2005)

Wow!


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## lesofprimus (Jun 28, 2005)

Maybe it was the Russian Sailors then...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 28, 2005)

Isn't that all sailors.....Les?

LOL just kidding.


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## lesofprimus (Jun 28, 2005)

> Isn't that all sailors.....Les?


Only the ones that wore Dungarees, Door-Gunner.... Hehe.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 28, 2005)

lesofprimus said:


> > Isn't that all sailors.....Les?
> 
> 
> Door-Gunner.... Hehe.



Alright now you are taking it too far.....You Swabie!!!!!  

LOL you gotta love the military rivalries!


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## GT (Oct 3, 2005)

Update.


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## syscom3 (Oct 3, 2005)

I have some neat prints of -109's that were autographed by him. A nice addition to my art collection.

When I was in Moscow, the city was loaded with pretty woman. I found it amusing that the blondes over there were all intelligent and educated. No blond jokes applied.

)


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## Erich (Oct 3, 2005)

Flyboy, going back to the other page. 

the viet nam stench was iniatiated by the idiot Harry Truman to come to the beleagured and stupid French who were getting butt swiped by the VC which they needed to be. because of our aid to the French and trying to close down Ho Chi Mingh with a bullet to the head our kind joker Kennedy and clan got us further into dog shit. My brother inlaw receiving his almost death wounds in 68, shrapnel still comes out of his body onto his bed every disqusting morning, and later myself active in that good for nothing conflict.....and thank goodness for those lovly guys to the vc's north, china coming to the norths aid. you could always tell a dead chinaman by his size. they were always physically taller that the vietnam's efforts.

sorry I am getting way to off topic


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 3, 2005)

Erich said:


> Flyboy, going back to the other page.
> 
> the viet nam stench was iniatiated by the idiot Harry Truman to come to the beleagured and stupid French who were getting butt swiped by the VC which they needed to be. because of our aid to the French and trying to close down Ho Chi Mingh with a bullet to the head our kind joker Kennedy and clan got us further into dog s**t. My brother inlaw receiving his almost death wounds in 68, shrapnel still comes out of his body onto his bed every disqusting morning, and later myself active in that good for nothing conflict.....and thank goodness for those lovly guys to the vc's north, china coming to the norths aid. you could always tell a dead chinaman by his size. they were always physically taller that the vietnam's efforts.
> 
> sorry I am getting way to off topic



YEP! My brother made it though 2 tours unscathed physically, my ex-brother in law got half his kidneys shot away....

My brother said the same thing about the Chinese, they were bigger than the average Vietnamese. He told me he heard a story of one being captured at Firebase Rodreguez (I guess it was close to the DMZ). A little indo-china payback, they cut his head off and placed it on a pole.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 4, 2005)

I agree Hartmann was a briliant fighter pilot. I am currently trying to obtain 2 pictures one of Hartmann and one of Galland and both are autographed. Will know in a couple of days if Im getting them.


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## P38 Pilot (Oct 4, 2005)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> I have worked with Russian air crews when I was in Kosovo and they all seemed all right to me. The were actually kind of funny. There commander walked around the Pristina Airfield with a hat that was so huge. It was like he was using it to show how important he was. Everytime we stayed with them they tried to feed us on a liquid diet of Vodka!


*

You know what i say about the Russians?

You can lead Ivan to water, but you can never get him to stop drinking his vodka! *


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## syscom3 (Oct 4, 2005)

P38 pilot, I dont think youve ever met any Russians in real life.


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## kiwimac (Oct 6, 2005)

I spent many happy hours with Russian friends, drinking Stolichnya and singing the songs of " Moist Mother Russia!"

Kiwimac


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## Nonskimmer (Oct 6, 2005)

"Moist" Mother Russia? 

I've met a few Russians. I even drank with some sailors on a couple of occasions. They were a little different than most of the guys I've met from the more western countries, but good fellas. Once you knew how to take them, there were really no problems. The officers and NCO's wore hats the size of dinner plates, but all in all they were alright guys.


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## plan_D (Oct 6, 2005)

The Russian Air Force officers have those big hats for landing their Hinds on.


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 6, 2005)

plan_D said:


> The Russian Air Force officers have those big hats for landing their Hinds on.



Or landing on their Hinds?!


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 9, 2005)

My first experience with Russians was back in 1988 when me and my family took the Troop Train from Frankfurt, Germany to East Berlin. I remember my father waking me up at like 3 in the morning while the Russian soldiers searched out train. It was crazy.

I dated a Russian girl once before I met my wife. I broke up with her cheated on me with another soldier an got pregnant and herpies! The fact that she got herpies from it made up for the fact that she cheated on me and I was no longer mad about it. I actually felt sorry for her because the soldier just packed up and left for the US without leaving an address or anything. I still see her everyonce in a while in town.


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## Nonskimmer (Oct 9, 2005)

And laugh your ass off? I would.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 9, 2005)

Yes I most certainly did. I am just glad she told me right after the fact so I did not have a chance of getting herpies. For all its worth though she was a very pretty girl.


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## lesofprimus (Oct 9, 2005)

Herpes, the gift that keeps on giving...


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 10, 2005)

Yeap


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## plan_D (Oct 10, 2005)

On a ...not so...random note, I work with a Russian from Siberia. He's f*ckin' weird to put it nicely.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Oct 11, 2005)

To be from Siberia you would have to.


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## WEISNER (Nov 14, 2005)

I live in a highly russian-eastern bloc area, I see them get off the boat, get on our welfare system, get their teeth fixed free, food stamps, the state pay's for an interperter for every medical visit, state payed tutor for the childeren, US government helps them open a business, HIGH Russian crime rate, they dont respect americans and are very rude. christ were do I stop. I say close the US borders to immigration....
and by the way DerAdlerIstGelandet I outbid you on the Hartmann photo, also was bidding on the Galland photo but gave up on it to outmax you on the Hartmann photo as I really wanted it.....is a nice photo, how was the galland 109 photo?
Kevin


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 14, 2005)

It was a very nice photo. Thanks alot by the way!  I wish I had not gone to the field and had internet access could have kept bidding.


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## GregP (Nov 19, 2005)

I have to jump in here.

Yes, the Russian committed attrocities. My bet is that if you had losy 20 million people to the Germans, you would, too if given the chance. If you say you wouldn't, then I can state with great accuracy that you have never been in combat.

The Germans committed attricities upon almost everyone, including Germans, Let's remember that 6 million Germans died in the concentration camps along with the Jews and other prisoners.

The Americanc committed attricities. So did the British.

The main difference is the number of people killed inappropriately. I;d say the germans have a lock on that one, followed by the Japanese. Then amybe the Russians, though their attrocities were against themselves to a greater degree than anyone else. Yes, they were brutal, but that stopped when the war stopped.

Was it justified? No. Should the purpetrators have had to pay? Yes. Did they? No.

There is no justice.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 19, 2005)

GregP said:


> I have to jump in here.
> 
> Yes, the Russian committed attrocities. My bet is that if you had losy 20 million people to the Germans, you would, too if given the chance. If you say you wouldn't, then I can state with great accuracy that you have never been in combat.
> 
> ...



I'd say you have to put it in perspective. The Germans and Japanese were blatant about the atrocities they committed based on what they felt about those they murdered. For the Russians, it was a matter of "payback" for those 20 million. Atrocities committed by the allies were indeed payback but did not have the initial blatancy as perpetuated by the Germans and Japanese. To say as a blanket statement that the perpetrators got away with murder is not true. Although you have Nuremberg as the centerpiece in dealing with the Germans, many Japanese were tried and executed for their crimes too.

My wife's grandfather was on MacArthur's Staff wand was taken prisoner by the Japanese and held for the duration of the war. In 1946 he testified against the CO and lead NCO at the last camp he was held at, both men were hung for their crimes.

Now were all perpetrators brought to justice? No, many got away with murder and that's where those who survived these atrocities should keep reminding the world about the darkest side of man ensuring these atrocities aren't committed again.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 20, 2005)

Agreed FBJ.


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## Cojimar 1945 (Jan 5, 2007)

The thing that seems unfair about the Soviets is that they got away with their villainous deeds without suffering the various humilitations inflicted on their fellow evil-doers the Japanese and Germans. Despite Soviet atrocities and expansionistic policies they were not defeated and occupied and were considered a great power following the war. The Soviets were not forced to constantly face their past crimes and retained some independence.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Jan 5, 2007)

Look at old Castro. Well, there is the problem in his abdomen.......


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## Chingachgook (Jan 5, 2007)

Did this thread just pop up from a year ago? Hummm

I think that harboring ill will toward ANYONE by association of their national origin is wrong. It just breeds hate.
You can not hold a young Russian, German etc. accountable for what their ancestors did. I know we all say that we would not do that, but somehow in some ways many people do anyway.
If people behave badly it is on their own account, not their parents - otherwise you leave them an excuse for their behavior.
I have family that were on all sides of WW2.
My mother is English, one of my grandmothers was Dutch Jew, one of my grandfathers was German, my wife is Russian/ Lithuanian and German, I share a recent common ancestor with Oberfeldwebel Otto Schultz (JG27). My father was USAF. My earliest ancestors in the Americas pushed the natives out of the Hudson River Valley. 
I know that I can not blame my mom for Bomber Harris.
Jeez, if I was accountable for my national origins I'd have to shoot myself!  
It would be hard for anyone to escape their genealogy.
The only thing that leaves me feeling embarrassed is that my last name is FRENCH! jk.


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## Guchi (Jan 5, 2007)

Chingachgook said:


> The only thing that leaves me feeling embarrassed is that my last name is FRENCH! jk.



Why? It (France) is the exact geographical centre of all the countries that you listed in your geanology!


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## Chingachgook (Jan 5, 2007)

Guchi said:


> Why? It (France) is the exact geographical centre of all the countries that you listed in your geanology!



You've found the root cause of all the trouble!


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