# Stalingrad



## parsifal (Feb 2, 2013)

February 2013 marks the 70th anniversary of the surrender of Axis forces in the encircled city of Stalingrad. It was one of the most important land battles of the second world war, and probably more than any other single battle sealed the fate of the Nazi regime. 

It is a battle that even today has a measure of controversy. It was both a battle that helped preserve our democracy but at the same time ensured s decades long occupation of Eastern Europe and brutal suppression of human rights 


_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1AC4wm6SwM_

I think we should simply or at least acknowledge the terrible cost of that battle and is crucial important in shaping history.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Feb 2, 2013)

To the all the young men who left their souls on that battle field. 

This battle has a place in my heart, as my Grandfather who was a Major in the Wehrmacht participated in this battle. He took shrapnel to his face, and even in 1983 before his death, if he sneezed small particles of metal would still be found in the tissue.


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## Njaco (Feb 3, 2013)

from our "This Day in Europe" thread...



> February 3, 1943: The final assault at Stalingrad took place. The German perimeter had been reduced to a small area of the wrecked city around the Tractor Factory complex. The Soviets massed over 300 guns per kilometer of front and smashed the German positions under a massive barrage.
> 
> Later, 2 He 111s loaded with bomb canisters full of provisions flew over the city but found no signs of life and returned to base. The remnants of 6.Armee under General Strecker in the northern pocket ceased fighting and surrendered to the Red Army. The battle for Stalingrad was over and the Luftwaffe's attempt of an airlift for von Paulus' 6.Armee was a failure.
> 
> The battle of Stalingrad was the largest single battle in human history. It raged for 199 days. Of the more than 280,000 men surrounded at Stalingrad, 160,000 had been killed in action or died of starvation or exposure. 34,000 mostly wounded men had been evacuated. 90,000 German soldiers marched off into captivity. Most would die in the march from the city. Only 5000 of these men would see Germany again, the last returning 12 years later in 1955. Losses for the Luftwaffe from 24 Nov '42 to 31 Jan '43 amounted to 266 Ju 52s, 165 He 111s, 42 Ju 86s, 9 Fw 200s, 7 He 177s and one Ju 290 - a total of 490 aircraft, enough for a whole Fliegerkorps.





http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/day-war-europe-65-years-ago-6116-27.html


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## Vassili Zaitzev (Feb 3, 2013)

To those lost on both side. To the Soviets, whose sacrifice made victory possible. Thanks for the rememberance Parsifal.


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## parsifal (Feb 3, 2013)

My stepfather also fought at Stalingrad. He is still with us, 92 years young. He was wounded on the flanks of the city, just before the encirclement and was evacuated, having taken a dum dum in the arm. He was an MG gunner, and absolutely thought the MG 42 a marvellous weapon, which it is. Thought the MP 38 was rubbish....too many jams, too finely engineeered for its own good. Thought the PPSH was a stellar example of how to design and build weapons in wartime, and he should know, he was a toolmaker by trade. 

Didnt think much of either leader, and absolutely called a spade a spade when it came to holocaust. He said it was the worst kept secret in Germany, everybody knew what was going on. His parents tried to help as many Berlin Jews escape as was humanly possible. 

My father says these actions were unforgivable and ought never be forgotten. He emigrated in 1952 after the blockade, and now calls himself an Australian. At the end of the war, he did not surrender, just droopped his weapons, got out of uniform and walked from Vienna to Berlin (his home town).

He was decorated with the iron cross and a wound medal at Stalingrad. After the war he sold his medals to an American for food and cigarettes. He says he never regretted doing that for a minute. Medals for murder he called them....

One of the most honest and honourable Germans of his era. Apart from being my father, I respect him immensely for his honesty.

My wife is Russian. GHer Grandad was from Siberia, a cavalryman that fought at Moscow in 1941, to use his words, skewering Germans with his 5 foor shaslik (slang for his cavalry sword). I dont think he fought at stalingrad, but before he died he gave me a book in Russian on the war from a Soviet perspective. He too was a magnificent human being, though he could never forgive the germans (he never met my Dad, but knew about him). 

It was a terrible war, and a terrible battle. Was it worth it. Opinions will vary, but I think so


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## michaelmaltby (Feb 3, 2013)

Volgograd becomes Stalingrad again:

Stalingrad victory marked by dictator

MM


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## buffnut453 (Feb 3, 2013)

I cannot imagine the hell that was Stalingrad. It was as ugly and brutal a battle as any in human history, not least because of the appalling weather conditions in which the participants fought and died. After 70 years, we should remember all those honourable men who suffered in that frozen hell-hole and pray humankind has matured enough never to repeat the experience!


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## Njaco (Feb 3, 2013)

a few pics...


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## parsifal (Feb 4, 2013)

yeah, few pics is a good idea....


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## Njaco (Feb 4, 2013)

What a waste...............


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## michaelmaltby (Feb 5, 2013)

What a waste...............

Should'a isolated the city and bypassed it ... for oil .... IMHO

MM


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## DonL (Feb 5, 2013)

Stalingrad was out as a strategic goal (industry dead) since mid-end September 1942, the flank of the Heeregruppe A you could defend at the Don. Nobody was in need of Stalingrad from a military viewpoint.

It was only Hitler's child and as crazy as he was, he thought "I stand at the Wolga and nobody will retreat me here", this fool moustache.


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## michaelmaltby (Feb 5, 2013)

"It was only Hitler's child.."

That about nails it, DonL.


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## fastmongrel (Feb 6, 2013)

It was only Hitler's child and as crazy as he was, he thought "I stand at the Wolga and nobody will retreat me here", this fool moustache.

Charlie Chaplin impersonators dont make good strategists


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## parsifal (Feb 6, 2013)

Hitler was a major reason for the debacle, but there were miscalculations throughour the wehrmacht about the whole operation. At the very heart of it, in my opnion was an underestimatation of the Red army's improving efficiency. Judging the Red Army's performance against what had happened in 1941 and 1942 was a mistake.

Most Germans viewed their army as far superior to that of the Soviet Union. They viewed the defeat in front of Moscow as an anomaly, an exception to the rule.

In late 1942 the Red Army remained inferior to the wehrmacht. i think that is undeniable. However the margin of supeiority was closing.

Moreover the wehrmacht coompletely misread the reserves available to the Soviets. Many believed the Soviets were close to using up all their available replacements and reserves. in fact the Soviets were holding the Germans with a minum of forces and steadily training and building up an assault force of arounf 300 division, including some very effective tank and mechanized forces, and massive concentrations of artillery. The Germans, not just hitler, completely misunderstood what was changing and what was going to happen, until it was far too late to do anything about it. 

Hitler just added a whole dimension of irationality to what was already a faulty situation assessment. Regardless of what anyone would tell him about the situation, as seen by Halders assessment in September, Hitler would simply not listen or change course. this is one of the falouts of the previous year. In 1941, faced with a determined Soviet counteroffensive, Hitlers generals to a man had advocated wholesale withdrawal, because they believed the front was about to collapse. Hitler basically refused to accept their advice then, and from their the "stand fast" mentality began. hitler convinced himself that his will, his iron discipline had held the army together. Ergo, his generals were fools and cowards. That his ridiculous stand fast orders had actually caused great damage to the wehrmacht does not seem to have entered his conscousness.

In the wiinter of 1942-3, Hitler was confronted with the same scenario....a determined major assault by the Soviets. This time his major commanders were conspicuous in their lack of opposition to a stand fast order, at least initially. Later as the gravity of the situation unfolded they changed that stance, but it was too late by then. The wehrmacht seem to have failed to apreciate that the forces attacking them in 1942-3 were vaastly better trained equipped and led than those that had been desperately thrown at them in 1941. Moreover the satellite forces gurading the flanks of 6A were just not as capable as pure german forces. none of this was appreciated sufficiently to avoid the disaster.


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## DonL (Feb 6, 2013)

I disagree!

It was alone Hitlers idea to go south at summer 1942.

The Wehrmacht had lost the possibility to attack at 1942 at all three Heeresgruppen through the very hard battles at the Winter 1941/42.

The front Generals and the OKH also Generals like von Manstein and Guderian wanted an other battle at/to Moskau at 1942, because of all that reasons you named above in your statement. They knew or sensed about the Red Armý capacity and wanted again a decisive battle, where the Red Army was forced to fight with *all* it's troups and got not the possibility to built reserves.
Moskau was a goal were the Red Army was forced to *accept* the fight, also the supply lines (for the germans) were much better and more focused compare to the south.

As the summer 1942 had shown the Wehrmacht had still the ability and possibility to to a major attack/offensive at one Heeresgruppe.

*Only* Hitler didn't want again a battle to/at Moskau, because as you has correct stated he didn't got the "message", but I disagree that the important Generals didn't understand the capacitys of the Red Army too.

A major offensive at the Heeresgruppe Mitte at summer 1942 had forced the Red Army to fight for their living and the Red Army hadn't had the opportunity to built this massive reserves. 

To make this clear, I don't claim that such an offensive had changed the war, but it had forced the Red Army to accept the fight at other circumstances, the Wehrmacht would be in charge and would dictate when and where would be the fighting and the Wehrmacht perhaps could have played a last time it's superrioty.


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## stug3 (Feb 11, 2013)




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## Mobius (Feb 11, 2013)

In 1942 the Soviets launched four major offensives three of which resulted in huge losses. Only Uranus succeeded.


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## davebender (Feb 11, 2013)

> In 1942 the Soviets launched four major offensives three of which resulted in huge losses. Only Uranus succeeded.


A fact ignored in most popular histories of the war. Stalingrad was one slice of a much larger pie.


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## davebender (Feb 11, 2013)

*Soviet Grain Production.*
1940. 95.6 million tons.
1942. 26.7 million tons.

*Soviet Potatoe Production.*
1940. 76.1 million tons.
1942. 23.8 million tons.

*USA Lend-Lease food shipments.*
3,918 tons. June to Sept 1941.
305,037 tons. Oct 1941 to June 1942.
997,783 tons. July 1942 to June 1943.

I'm under the impression Soviet citizens didn't eat too well during the 1930s. What kept them alive during 1942 when they had only about a third as much food? Even with half the population in the German zone things must have been grim in Stalin's empire.


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## parsifal (Feb 11, 2013)

US farm produce was estimated to be equivalent to that needed to keep the entire Red army fed and clothed for a full two year period.

Very substantial aid, that allowed substantial diversion of manpower to the armed forces. 

The other major contributiuons of US military aid were in trasnport and rolling stock. The US provided more trucks to the Soviets in two years than the Germans produced in 6 years. Domestic Soviet production was also greater than German output of trucks. the other great assistance was in the rail transport area. Britain provided huge amounts of rolling stock, as did the US. The US also provided large numbers of advanced locomotives, that unlike the German types seemed able to cope with the harsh conditions. Soviet locomotives lacked many of the refinements found in German machines, but they were tough, and unlike the Germans machines, able to go from coaling point to coaling point without the need to install interim fuelling and watering stations within the network.

The British rolling stock came mostly from India, where it is thought such transfers of machinery contributed materially to the 1943 famine in Bengal (wheat sat on the docks and could not be transferred to the interior regions for lack of rail transport....it had been transferred to the Soviet Union). There was more rolling stock in India in1939 than the whole of England or Germany, though the individual cars tended to be of lighter lift capacity. The Russians I have read found this rolling stock very useful, being of similar standard to their own existing stock of freight cars. 

A very large contingent of US engineers assisted in the conversion of all this hardware. it was a massive boost to Soviet capability, and something the germans had absolutely no hope of matching. 

The majority of aid did come via the northern route. That route in fact was less important to the souther route through Iran and the Far eastern routes, wheree the Japanese refused to interdict the large numbers of reflagged US shipping t5ransporting goods to the ports of Vladivostock and Sovietskaya Gavan. 

Ive read somewhere that about 14% of Soviet AFVs were of Allied origins, and a significant number of these were British. apparently the Soviets were particaulelry happy with the Canadian built Valentines.


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## davebender (Feb 12, 2013)

That part I understand. Much of the U.S. food shipment consisted of preserved food such as Spam suitable for military field rations.

But what were Soviet civilians eating during 1942?


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## parsifal (Feb 12, 2013)

You do realize that something like 20% of the total Soviet population had been mobilized, and about 30% of the population was under occupation. That only leaves about 50% as many mouths to feed in 1942-3 as had been the case two years previously. Of that 30% under occupation some believe that as many as 20 million lost their lives mostly to german brutality....worked to death, starved to death, or just shot.

There are good reasons why even today there are people in the world that do not like Germans for what they did


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## stug3 (Feb 18, 2013)

Read Entire Speech: 
_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWueAam-w-c_


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## Njaco (Feb 18, 2013)

I found a few more pics of Stalingrad.....

.


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## Njaco (Feb 18, 2013)

and this is Mamayev Kurgan that saw some of the most brutal fighting. The original Mamayev Kurgan was a Tartar burial mound 102 metres high. The current formation is dominated by a memorial complex commemorating the Battle of Stalingrad. At the time of its installation in 1967 the statue named "The Motherland Calls" formed the largest free-standing sculpture in the world.

.


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## Mobius (Feb 18, 2013)

I bet that gets hit by lightning quite a lot.


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## parsifal (Feb 18, 2013)

Chris, in relation to your post 25, photo number 2, I have seen that photo in my my stepfathers collection. Hes not sure, but it might be the town of kalach,which is a town to the southwest of Stalingrad, about 50 miles distant. There wa fighting in Kalch on the way in, which if Im right this is s photo of, taken roughly August or September, and also as the Russians slammed shut the two arms of the encirclement.

What do your sources say?


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## Njaco (Feb 18, 2013)

Nothing actually. I pulled these pics from a Gaming forum where someone had a thread of WWII pics. Really cool thread as it has alot of pics I haven't seen before.

WW2 Photos


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## Messy1 (Feb 21, 2013)

Just finished reading Enemy At The Gates, about the battle, and the events that led up to it. Great book. I highly recommend it. The details and soldiers accounts of the fighting get pretty gory, and many times shocked me even knowing before hand that the conditions were below human.
Hitler had many high ranking military officers try to change his mind, but he would either berate them, or just flat out ignore them calling them cowards, or throw a tantrum until the officer agreed with him or kept quiet. Goering did nothing to help the situation by promising to fly in amounts of reinforcements that he never could hope to meet or sustain.


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## Poor Old Spike (Mar 4, 2013)

Njaco said:


> Nothing actually. I pulled these pics from a Gaming forum where someone had a thread of WWII pics. Really cool thread as it has alot of pics I haven't seen before.
> 
> WW2 Photos




I also posted a bunch of pics here at 'The Few Good Men' forum, scroll down to 'Military History Section' then choose WW2, then choose the nation, then choose its AFV's or Aircraft categories etc-
The Few Good Men

And here's my WW2 Aircraft galleries at the 'Mission 4 Today' forum-
http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewforum&f=92


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## Njaco (Mar 10, 2013)

Thanks alot Spike!! Great pics there!


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## stug3 (Aug 23, 2013)

Sunday, 23 August 1942 the first bombs fell on Stalingrad. The Luftwaffe began a systematic block by block destruction of the city that lasted for five days. The city was turned into a pile of rubble that provided cover for defending forces and made the Germans advance all the more difficult.






A Stuka over the burning city of Stalingrad.


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## razor1uk (Aug 23, 2013)

Njaco said:


> Nothing actually. I pulled these pics from a Gaming forum where someone had a thread of WWII pics. Really cool thread as it has alot of pics I haven't seen before.



Might that be of the Hearts of Iron brand of strategy game...? 
I have both 2 3 myself - 3 is really something, much harder and thought inducing gameplay - good for creating alternate what-if scenarios; if you massage the tech trees along the way.

Weather by design, stupidity, ego, or what ever else, the battle for Stalingrad was a meat grinder for all whom were tasked there, it immobilised the Germans mobility even more-so than the environmental conditions did, and it gave the Russians a patriotic southern anvil anchor.

In some sence, were it not for this ill-fated attempted 'siege', the war could have been fairly different in many other ways...


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## planb (Aug 23, 2013)

Njaco said:


> Nothing actually. I pulled these pics from a Gaming forum where someone had a thread of WWII pics. Really cool thread as it has alot of pics I haven't seen before.
> 
> WW2 Photos


 Thanks for sharing this post,but man I can only waste an hour at a time and I didn't even get half way through


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## parsifal (Aug 23, 2013)

razor1uk said:


> Might that be of the Hearts of Iron brand of strategy game...?
> I have both 2 3 myself - 3 is really something, much harder and thought inducing gameplay - good for creating alternate what-if scenarios; if you massage the tech trees along the way.
> 
> Weather by design, stupidity, ego, or what ever else, the battle for Stalingrad was a meat grinder for all whom were tasked there, it immobilised the Germans mobility even more-so than the environmental conditions did, and it gave the Russians a patriotic southern anvil anchor.
> ...




we will never actually know. germany's whole 1942 campaign was dodgy, given the manpower shortages.There have often been claims that the Germans should have renewed their attacks on moscow or even Leningrad, but I disagree. it would have been even worse for the Germans in that direction. in the Moscow MD alone according to Madej and nagorski, there were more than 300 Divs, dug in, of which more than 100 were combat ready and experienced. What these formations lacked in the early months of 1942, was sufficient transport and logistic support to be committed to an offensive battle, but in a defensive situation, they would have been very dangerous to the Germans. The Germans committed to a southern ofensive as much out of expediency as anything. This was where the Russians had done least well in the preceding winter counteroffensive, were not well dug in, and had suffered some serious losses at Kharkov and elsewhere. It was wherer the oil was as well, but this was never a priority for OKH. it was for hitler, but Germany was never going to secure much oil from the caucasus during wartime cnditions. 

The germans had suffered serious manpower losses that they had great dificulty in rreplacing. They were beginning to suffer serious tank shortages as well, though to be fair, the artillery ammunition famine was being overcome, finally, not least because large amounts of artillery had been lost over the winter. To kick start the summer offensive, the germans stripped out 2/3 of their front of both manpower and equipment most notably MT for the Infantry. At full dtrength, an Infantry div had 9 combat Infantray Bns, and around 900 trucks, along with about 6500 horses. After the winter and the reassignment of much manpower and equipment to bring AGS up to strength, the majority of Infantry were down to about 40% manpower strength (often reorganised on a 4 bn 2 reegt TOE, with reduced comany strengths for the Inf bns) , about 50-60% artillery strength, and about 20% MT, and around 2000 horses. This robbed about 60% of the german army of much offensive capability, though they remained quite potent defensively. And, on the eastern front, they remained at that level, or even worse as the war progressed.

in my olpinion, the germans desperately needed a rest after the winter 41-2. They needed to start thinking defensively, probably behind the rivers in Western Russia, whilst consentrating on building, or rebuilding their mobile counterattck forces. They never really adopted that strategy, with Hitler always wanting to either attack, and/or, forbidding much in the way of defensive prerations ( referring to the latter as "defeatist"). as always, the whole 1942 offensive was inadequalty resourced, and bore all the typical german hallmerks of opting for optunistic tarets, rather than thinking things through on what actually needed to be done. Stalingrad was one result of that approach,but if the german high command reamned true to form, and played out its typical unthinking opportunism,there would have been a stalingrad played out somewhere.


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## stug3 (Sep 18, 2013)

The corn silo or grain elevator in Stalingrad pictured after the fighting.


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## Mobius (Sep 18, 2013)

Here is a home for aerial photographs of Stalingrad.
Stalingrad Aerial Scans


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