# The View



## billrunnels (Jan 5, 2018)

The view from the nose of a B-17 was breathtaking. We referred to it as the "Greenhouse". I remember the first time I sat in the bombardier's seat, it was a little challenging. When our position in the bomber stream was back a distance you could see formations ahead of you for miles. If contrails were in play, it was like driving on a highway. The first two bombs out of every lead aircraft were smoke markers. These alerted other bombardiers in the formation to the second they were to release their bombs. They also left a spiral trail toward the target helping the following aircraft to identify the target area. Our fighter escort were close at hand and often appeared to be having fun. The lead would snap roll and the other three would do the same. A somber moment took over when flak filled the view. All in all, the bombardier had the advantage of being first over the target and first back home. A lasting experience for one's memory bank.

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## fubar57 (Jan 6, 2018)




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## airminded88 (Jan 8, 2018)

Fascinating description to say the least Bill.
I was thinking about asking you about how it felt to be flying right behind that plexiglass nose on the B-17 but your narrative is spot on.
Unforgettable experience for sure.

How safe did you feel knowing you had the chin turret twin .50 cals at your disposal?
It's well documented that the guys before you had to endure FW-190 head on passes with a single .30 caliber machine gun inflicting demorilizing losses among the bombers

Cheers


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## Airframes (Jan 8, 2018)

It must have been a great view, especially in a huge, clear sky. Did you ever feel vulnerable Bill, perched up front, sort of 'out in the open' ?


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## billrunnels (Jan 8, 2018)

airminded88 said:


> Fascinating description to say the least Bill.
> I was thinking about asking you about how it felt to be flying right behind that plexiglass nose on the B-17 but your narrative is spot on.
> Unforgettable experience for sure.
> 
> ...


The twin .50's were a comfort factor. I don't remember being behind the plexiglass nose being concerning with the exception of one mission, the nose had several patches and that caught my attention,

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## billrunnels (Jan 8, 2018)

Airframes said:


> It must have been a great view, especially in a huge, clear sky. Did you ever feel vulnerable Bill, perched up front, sort of 'out in the open' ?


I don't think so any more than the other crew member positions. Once underway on a mission I really didn't have time to think about it.

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## Airframes (Jan 8, 2018)

Thanks Bill.


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## Gnomey (Jan 8, 2018)

Great stuff Bill!


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## Thorlifter (Jan 8, 2018)

Awesome stories and first hand accounts Bill. Thank you!

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## airminded88 (Jan 9, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> The twin .50's were a comfort factor. I don't remember being behind the plexiglass nose being concerning with the exception of one mission, the nose had several patches and that caught my attention,



Completely understandable Bill.
You give us an invaluable insight as to how it was to be up there.
Thank you!

Cheers

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## MIflyer (Jan 10, 2018)

A few years ago there was an article in the USAF Museum Newsletter by the lead bombardier for the 15th Air Force. There was one mission where the 15th and 8th hit the same city in Germany. He said that after he dropped the bombs they made a left turn to head back south to their base in Italy. As they turned he could see the 8th Air Force, to the West, fighting their way back home to England. And as they continued the turn he could see the 15th Air Force to the South, fighting its way to the target.

Imagine what that looked like!

After he war he met Germans who said that was the mission that convinced them the war was lost. To see that many heavy bombers, thousands of miles away from the factories where they were built, hitting a single city in Germany, made them realize just how much trouble they were in. 

Thanks, Bill!

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## billrunnels (Jan 10, 2018)

MIflyer said:


> A few years ago there was an article in the USAF Museum Newsletter by the lead bombardier for the 15th Air Force. There was one mission where the 15th and 8th hit the same city in Germany. He said that after he dropped the bombs they made a left turn to head back south to their base in Italy. As they turned he could see the 8th Air Force, to the West, fighting their way back home to England. And as they continued the turn he could see the 15th Air Force to the South, fighting its way to the target.
> 
> Imagine what that looked like!
> 
> ...


I was on that mission. Target an ordnance Depot at Bayreuth, Germany. The date April 5, 1945. The 8th was protected by 182 P-51's. There were a lot of aircraft over the target. Our squadron had to abort the initial drop due to B-24's from the 15th sliding under us in the drop zone. Made a 360 and dropped successfully on the second run. We were in the air 11:30 that day.

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## airminded88 (Jan 10, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> I was on that mission. Target an ordnance Depot at Bayreuth, Germany. The date April 5, 1945. The 8th was protected by 182 P-51's. There were a lot of aircraft over the target. Our squadron had to abort our initial drop due to B-24's from the 15th sliding under us in the drop zone. We made a 360 and dropped successfully on the second run. We were in the air 11:30 that day.



Amazing Bill, quite a experience that missions must have been.

If a 360 was to be made over the target, how many minutes did it usually take to the bombers to be on the bomb run again?

Cheers


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## billrunnels (Jan 10, 2018)

airminded88 said:


> Amazing Bill, quite a experience that missions must have been.
> 
> If a 360 was to be made over the target, how many minutes did it usually take to the bombers to be on the bomb run again?
> 
> Cheers


It took about an hour. Other aircraft from the 303rd showed 10:30 and we were 11 hrs 30 min.. Took time to return to the bomber stream for the second run.


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## Airframes (Jan 10, 2018)

That's a really exhausting length of time to be airborne, at that altitude, and alert all the time !


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## billrunnels (Jan 10, 2018)

Airframes said:


> That's a really exhausting length of time to be airborne, at that altitude, and alert all the time !


It was a long, long day. A few of our squadron aircraft had to refuel on the Continent to make it back home.


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## billrunnels (Jan 10, 2018)

Airframes said:


> That's a really exhausting length of time to be airborne, at that altitude, and alert all the time !


We exhausted our oxygen supply on the way back, while still over enemy territory, and had to drop down to a very low altitude to avoid radar etc.


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## Airframes (Jan 10, 2018)

Must have been a tense ride back Bill - thanks for sharing these memories.

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## billrunnels (Jan 10, 2018)

Airframes said:


> Must have been a tense ride back Bill - thanks for sharing these memories.


It was but the pilot of this lead crew was one of the best and that relieved some of the pressure.

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## Jimbob (Jan 11, 2018)

I have fired the flexible .50 cal. in the nose of a B-25 in flight at drums on the ground. How would ever hit an aircraft closing on you at high speed with the flexible gun is beyond me. A chin turret with 2 .50 cal guns would make me feel more comfortable. My hat is off too you and all the crews that endured those missions.


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## billrunnels (Jan 11, 2018)

Jimbob said:


> I have fired the flexible .50 cal. in the nose of a B-25 in flight at drums on the ground. How would ever hit an aircraft closing on you at high speed with the flexible gun is beyond me. A chin turret with 2 .50 cal guns would make me feel more comfortable. My hat is off too you and all the crews that endured those missions.


I am glad I never had to use the twin .50's in combat. They forgot to send me to Gunners School so I question that I would have been very effective. Like you, I had only fired them on range Stateside with a fair degree of success.


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## billrunnels (Jan 11, 2018)

Jimbob said:


> I have fired the flexible .50 cal. in the nose of a B-25 in flight at drums on the ground. How would ever hit an aircraft closing on you at high speed with the flexible gun is beyond me. A chin turret with 2 .50 cal guns would make me feel more comfortable. My hat is off too you and all the crews that endured those missions


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## airminded88 (Jan 12, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> It took about an hour. Other aircraft from the 303rd showed 10:30 and we were 11 hrs 30 min.. Took time to return to the bomber stream for the second run.



An additional hour over enemy territory must have been something that nobody was looking forward to.
The September 6th, 1943 mission over Stuttgart had similar conditions. The target was covered by clouds and a certain general bent on hitting the target directed the bomber stream to make one 360 after a failed attempt and then another one was made finally dropping the bomb load after three attempts.
Not all B-17s at the time were equipped with Tokyo tanks and many were lost when they ran out of fuel on the return leg of the mission.
A particularly difficult mission for the 8th right between the August 17th and October 14th debacles.
Thank you for sharing these great memories Bill!

Cheers

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## Tieleader (May 26, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> I was on that mission. Target an ordnance Depot at Bayreuth, Germany. The date April 5, 1945. The 8th was protected by 182 P-51's. There were a lot of aircraft over the target. Our squadron had to abort the initial drop due to B-24's from the 15th sliding under us in the drop zone. Made a 360 and dropped successfully on the second run. We were in the air 11:30 that day.


Were second or even third runs common? I can only imagine the german 88 gunners saying "Look! Another chance to shoot down more Americana terror bombers! " 
Also, and I probably should know this by now but don't, did the formation planes drop on the signal from the lead bomber only or did they make corrections of their own drops?


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## billrunnels (May 27, 2018)

Tieleader said:


> Were second or even third runs common? I can only imagine the german 88 gunners saying "Look! Another chance to shoot down more Americana terror bombers! "
> Also, and I probably should know this by now but don't, did the formation planes drop on the signal from the lead bomber only or did they make corrections of their own drops?


A second pass was the exception rather than the rule. Formation bombing on the squadron Lead was the most effective giving a smaller footprint on the target.

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## GrauGeist (May 27, 2018)

Bill, many thanks for sharing your experiences!

I have to ask, did you by any chance, encounter the Me262 jet during your later missions?


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## billrunnels (May 27, 2018)

GrauGeist said:


> Bill, many thanks for sharing your experiences!
> 
> I have to ask, did you by any chance, encounter the Me262 jet during your later missions?


No I did not but our Group did. I wasn't on the mission. I only saw two enemy aircraft in the air a ME-109 and an ME-210. The 109 flew along our flank for 15 minutes or so but the P-51 Escort kept him away.

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## mighty_8th (May 27, 2018)

billrunnels said:


> The view from the nose of a B-17 was breathtaking. We referred to it as the "Greenhouse". I remember the first time I sat in the bombardier's seat, it was a little challenging. When our position in the bomber stream was back a distance you could see formations ahead of you for miles. If contrails were in play, it was like driving on a highway. The first two bombs out of every lead aircraft were smoke markers. These alerted other bombardiers in the formation to the second they were to release their bombs. They also left a spiral trail toward the target helping the following aircraft to identify the target area. Our fighter escort were close at hand and often appeared to be having fun. The lead would snap roll and the other three would do the same. A somber moment took over when flak filled the view. All in all, the bombardier had the advantage of being first over the target and first back home. A lasting experience for one's memory bank.


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