# Boeing B-17E Flying Fortress The Dreamboat nose



## johnbr (Jun 15, 2015)

Here is a b-17 i have not seen before.
During World War II, one of the constant tensions for combat air force leaders was quantity versus quality, usually played out in answering the question of “what modifications produced enough added value they were worth slowing the production line for?”

The usual answer was “very few,” so may air forces took a short cut and produced field modifications to improve the combat performance of front line aircraft. The most numerous and formal were the German Luftwaffe’s “Rüstsätz,” or field modification kits, to increase or vary the armament of its fighters.

The U.S. had a less formal system of modifications at forward field depots, notably “Pappy” Gunn’s armament modifications on A-20s and B-25s in the South Pacific, but the Army Air Force considered the most important field modifications were those on the 8th Air Force Bomber Command’s B-17 “Flying Fortresses” flying out of England.

Though the B-17 was one of the war’s outstanding bombers, when it began flying combat missions over Europe in late 1942, its first encounters with Luftwaffe fighters made it seem anything but a “flying fortress.”

The most common complaint was the limited, hand-held forward firing armament, which the German fighters exploited with head-on attacks. Other complaints were with tail heaviness, which made it tiring to fly in tight formation, poorly organized crew positions and a flawed oxygen supply system.

One of the 8th Air Force’s engineering officers, Maj. Robert J. Reed, was given the task of solving the problems, and in a few months he came up with a long list of suggested improvements for the B-17. The changes were beyond the capability of the U.S. depots in England to make, so the 8th Bomber Command gave Major Reed a B-17E and sent him back to Wright Field, Ohio, to make the modifications.

Major Reed’s changes were radical, especially in armament. He took the nose and tail power-operated turrets from a B-24 Liberator and mounted them on the B-17, where they provided much more firepower and better armor protection. The tail turret had a field of fire about six times greater than the original B-17 turret.

Since the nose was now taken up by the turret, the bombardier was moved to an under nose gondola, which provided such excellent visibility that he acted as the navigator too, reducing the number of crew members from 10 to nine.

The radio operator and his equipment were moved from the middle of the aircraft forward to a compartment next to the bombardier gondola, making it possible for them to communicate if the inter phone was shot out. More importantly, this moved the center of gravity forward and eliminated the tail heaviness. As an added benefit, this required a longer antenna wire, which provided a stronger signal.

The dorsal and ball turrets were replaced with lighter, roomier and better armored models, and the two waist gun positions were removed and replaced by a power boosted twin .50 machine gun mounted on top of the fuselage just above the old waist gun positions. It required only a single gunner, so the number of crew members was further reduced to eight.

The “barn door” type bomb bay doors were replaced with folding doors that extended only 8 inches into the slip stream. This cut drag during the bomb run and provided a tactical advantage, since the folding bomb bay doors were invisible from a distance. This meant that open bomb bay doors would not alert German fighters when the bomb run was beginning and the bombers could not maneuver. The oxygen system was redesigned so each crew member had double lines so if one was cut he would still receive a half supply.

The final results for the “Dreamboat,” as the project was nicknamed, were weight reduction of more than 1,000 pounds, the center of gravity moved forward to a nearly ideal point, all the manually operated machine guns were replaced with power operated weapons, and two crew members were eliminated. Speed and altitude performance remained the same because the drag of the bombardier’s “gondola” offset the reduced weight and improved the center of gravity.

When Major Reed brought the “Dreamboat” back to England in September 1943, it was well received. The formation flying characteristics were vastly improved, and the folding bomb bay doors and new oxygen system, seemingly minor points, were praised by the crews flying daily combat over Germany. The main complaint was the concentration of all the key crew members in the nose where they could be taken out with a single cannon shell.

Despite the improvements, incorporating the changes into the B-17 production line would have resulted in unacceptable delays for retooling and they were too extensive to be done in England, so Major Reed’s “Dreamboat” remained an object of curiosity in various depots for the rest of the war. The project was not, however, for naught. Many of Major Reed’s changes were incorporated in the new Boeing B-29 Superfortress and Convair B-32 Dominator, which were in their initial test stages and were to replace the B-17.

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## syscom3 (Jun 15, 2015)

I had never heard of this. Interesting!


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## T Bolt (Jun 15, 2015)

Very interesting. I had never heard of this one. I'd love to see more pictures of it. That top turret looks like the type used on the B-24 also


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## Capt. Vick (Jun 16, 2015)

I have been trying to get pictures of the top, rear gun installation for a while now. It seems curious to me that perhaps the most unique aspect of this test bird is the least photographed. I have not been able to find any close-up, detailed photos of that remote installation. Weird huh?


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## Gnomey (Jun 16, 2015)

Interesting shots! Thanks for sharing.


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## Valdez (Jun 16, 2015)



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## Snautzer01 (Jun 17, 2015)

and a B24 with B17 parts can be seen here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ai...ntaining-chin-turret-42540.html?highlight=b24


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## Wurger (Jun 17, 2015)




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## Wayne Little (Jun 17, 2015)

Very interesting!


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## johnbr (Sep 3, 2017)




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## Wurger (Sep 3, 2017)




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## Old Wizard (Sep 3, 2017)




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## johnbr (Sep 4, 2017)

I moved this to here. .


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## Wurger (Sep 4, 2017)




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## Robert Porter (Sep 4, 2017)

Very interesting, I had read something about this a long time ago but never saw a photo of it! Thanks for sharing.


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## Wayne Little (Sep 5, 2017)

Yep, interesting


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## T Bolt (Sep 5, 2017)

I came across this photo Not sure if it was part of the dreamboat project or the YB-40 project but I would guess the YB-40 or some later modification as the plexiglas nose looks like a later model than the B-17E without all the framing.

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## fubar57 (Sep 5, 2017)

Nice Glenn. A perfectly aimed shot with that set-up would have laid waste to anything immediately


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## fubar57 (Sep 5, 2017)

Found a bigger picture of that 6 gun turret, s/n 42-31435...





​....caption says "Delivered Cheyenne 31/10/43; Gt Falls 2/11/43; Kansas City 7/12/43; Eglin 17/12/43; Wright Fd 11/1/44 for a special six-gun nose to be fitted and fired by pilot; Kearney 14/1/44; Oklahoma City 26/1/44; Grenier 18/2/44; Assigned 544BS/384BG [SU-S] Grafton Underwood 2/3/44; [27m] mission to Orleans, France 6/6/44, with Rich Maggart, Co-pilot: George Seidlein, Navigator: Len Galloway, tog-Cecil Hamilton, Flight engineer/top turret gunner: Chas Gregory, Radio Operator: John Johnson, Ball turret gunner: Tom Philpott, Waist gunner: George Huff,Tail gunner: Andy Bellomo (9 Returned to Duty); flak damage KO’d three engines and made force landed at RAF Manston; Salvaged AFSC 7/7/44. WEST’S END.

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## Old Wizard (Sep 5, 2017)




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## fubar57 (Sep 5, 2017)

Here is a list of missions for the above aircraft, B-17G 42-31435 SU✪S, "WEST END", with many more photos

B-17G 42-31435

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## T Bolt (Sep 7, 2017)

Great research George


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## vikingBerserker (Sep 7, 2017)

Nice!


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## johnbr (Sep 16, 2017)



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## fubar57 (Sep 16, 2017)

beauty


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## Wurger (Sep 16, 2017)




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## Robert Porter (Sep 16, 2017)

Nice!


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## Old Wizard (Sep 17, 2017)




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## Gnomey (Sep 26, 2017)

Good shots!


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## tbottoms1512 (Oct 9, 2017)

Can't remember where I found it but this was said to be a sketch of the 'Dreamboat' nose art.


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## Capt. Vick (Oct 9, 2017)

What?


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## philmarchese (Oct 9, 2017)

johnbr said:


> View attachment 467597
> View attachment 467598


The AAF had a very formal process of control for aircraft modifcation and hadban Aircraft Modification Control Office. The B-24D1 nose turret modification is a very famous example. The B-25 overseas C1/D1 conversions were depot produced and lead to the NAA developed D2 and G-12 programs. The Middletown AAFAC program was another major progam. Several B-17 armament modification programs were conduct by UAL, Cheyenne. All were formal, approved programs. The P-51 tankage and fin strake programs are two more factory designed, approved programs.

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## johnbr (Jul 23, 2019)

axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?13581
Let's first compare this B-17E to the B-17E/L we have ingame: 

*B-17E/L B-17E "The Dreamboat"* 

2 x 1 7.62mm in the nose 1 x 2 12.7mm M2 in the nose  

1 x 2 12.7mm M2 on the top 2 x 2 12.7mm on the top 

1 x 1 12.7mm M2 on the top -  

1 x 2 12.7mm M2 on the bottom 1 x 2 12.7mm M2 on the bottom  

1 x 1 12.7mm M2 in the rear left waist - 

1 x 1 12.7mm M2 in the rear right waist -  

1 x 2 12.7mm M2 in the tail 1 x 2 12.7mm M2 in the tail 

*Total: 2 x 7.62mm* *Total: 10 x 12.7mm M2* 

* 9 x 12.7mm M2*
When Major Reed brought the “Dreamboat” back to England in September 1943, it was well received. The formation flying characteristics were vastly improved, and the folding bomb bay doors and new oxygen system, seemingly minor points, were praised by the crews flying daily combat over Germany. The main complaint was the concentration of all the key crew members in the nose where they could be taken out with a single cannon shell.
The project was not, however, for naught. Many of Major Reed’s changes were incorporated in the new Boeing B-29 Superfortress and Convair B-32 Dominator, which were in their initial test stages and were to replace the B-17.
Text from here - Reed’s “Dreamboat” - Kaiserslautern American




Despite the improvements, incorporating the changes into the B-17 production line would have resulted in unacceptable delays for retooling and they were too extensive to be done in England, so Major Reed’s “Dreamboat” remained an object of curiosity in various depots for the rest of the war.

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## Gnomey (Jul 24, 2019)

Good shots!


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