# F-22 and F-35 outperformed by 4th gen fighters?



## ONE_HELLCAT (May 29, 2009)

So my friend sends me this video that talks about, in short, how bad the F-35 is in close quarters combat and how superior 4th gen Russian fighters are. The user in youtube is PowerRussia, so there's obviously a bias.

I'm wondering, what's your take on this? 

_View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N0iXFN37iU_

Personally, to say the F-35 is a terrible close quarters fighter makes sense. It seems kinda heavy in the VTOL configuration, and it does have smaller wings and lacks thrust vectoring.


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## comiso90 (May 29, 2009)

"close quarters"

doesnt mean what it used too.


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## Glider (May 29, 2009)

Does this fall into the same area as the Chinese claiming to have shot down an F22?


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## ONE_HELLCAT (May 29, 2009)

Glider said:


> Does this fall into the same area as the Chinese claiming to have shot down an F22?



I guess so, though I've honestly missed that story


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## drgondog (May 29, 2009)

ONE_HELLCAT said:


> So my friend sends me this video that talks about, in short, how bad the F-35 is in close quarters combat and how superior 4th gen Russian fighters are. The user in youtube is PowerRussia, so there's obviously a bias.
> 
> I'm wondering, what's your take on this?
> 
> ...




Until the 'adversary' force deploys stealth technology and/or defeats it - they can't kill what they can't see. Missle technology combined by radar capabilities sez that F-35 and F-22 have a distinct advantage well before the merge.

the capability of a 22/35 hitting his adversary 50-100 miles away at night (or day) while remaining unseen for example, makes it tough to contemplate why any 4th Gen Russian Fighter has an advantage.


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## FLYBOYJ (May 29, 2009)

As I said many times, I remember during the late 70s early 80s hearing people saying the same thing when the F-15 and F-16 came on scene.


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## vikingBerserker (May 29, 2009)

I agree with Drgondog on this one.

I watched a pretty cool show on TV about modern combat (Dogfights?), and it talked about using a B-1 as a missle carrier whose missles would be controlled by the F-22. Pretty sweet.


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## Colin1 (May 29, 2009)

drgondog said:


> Until the 'adversary' force deploys stealth technology and/or defeats it - they can't kill what they can't see. Missle technology combined by radar capabilities sez that F-35 and F-22 have a distinct advantage well before the merge.
> 
> the capability of a 22/35 hitting his adversary 50-100 miles away at night (or day) while remaining unseen for example, makes it tough to contemplate why any 4th Gen Russian Fighter has an advantage.


I'm not really up on the modern stuff
but that's pretty much what I was thinking


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## Matt308 (May 29, 2009)

It is well known that the F-35 is NOT an air superiority fighter. That was the F-22's job. But then again, it was not designed for that role. The F-35 is not a match for many existing airframes in a knife fight from a kinematic perspective.

But ability of the F-35 to avoid entering 'the merge' is exactly what it WAS designed for. F-35 has all aspect stealth, unlike F/A-18E/F or F-15 Silent Eagle. And it also has netcentric capability to exchange battlefield information with diverse assets that increase by magnitudes is effectiveness. Modern air-battles are not necessarily decided by single platform detection, targeting and destruction of enemy assets. USAF is still learning the capabilities of stealth, but to date they are NOT the missile platforms. Rather they are force multipliers that allow early detection and targeting that is passed on to existing weapons platforms, allowing them to remain stealthy. It is easy to remain in battle-think that a single platform is limited by the missiles that it can carry. This is foolish in modern planning. If used in an ideal sense, the F-35 or F-22 would never fire a shot.

This has been proven for the most part in exercises that are public domain. F-22s control the battlespace similar to AWACS. Link16/22 and newer waveforms allow for dynamic information display between targeters and shooters. F-15s/F-16s make the kills.

Thus, when you read about one-on-one engagements, they must assume that battlespace planning has utterly collapsed.


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## ONE_HELLCAT (May 29, 2009)

This is pretty much what I thought, but now I'm wondering, if they did get into visual range of each other, how would the F-35 perform?


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## Matt308 (May 29, 2009)

Against what? What weapons? What scenario?

And you realize that your question will only result in suppositions, right?


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## ONE_HELLCAT (May 30, 2009)

Well I meant in the scenario in the video. I know no one here would know for fact he outcome, but I'm still interested in it because the lot of you know aviation better than I do.


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## Raptorman (May 30, 2009)

Ok, let us take an "incident" into consideration. 2 F-22 vs 6 SU 35's. The F-22's have the 35's on their screens before the 35's can even see the 22's. The 22 pilots tells his computer to target the 35's. The lead 22 does this. It tells the second 22 which 35's it has targeted to that the second 22 targets different aircraft. So now we have 2 22's targeting 6 35's from 50 miles away and so far the 35 can't see the 22's. If/when the 22's fire, the 35's will have a moment to pick them up on radar. The chances are the 35's will pick up the missiles flying at them before they pick up the 22's. Since each 35 has a missile dedicated to it the 22's have only fired 6 missiles. By the time there are even in visual range the 35's will be trying to evade the missiles fired at them. But let them think they can do it, maybe it will slow down the development of new aircraft.


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## Glider (May 30, 2009)

Raptorman said:


> Ok, let us take an "incident" into consideration. 2 F-22 vs 6 SU 35's. The F-22's have the 35's on their screens before the 35's can even see the 22's. The 22 pilots tells his computer to target the 35's. The lead 22 does this. It tells the second 22 which 35's it has targeted to that the second 22 targets different aircraft. So now we have 2 22's targeting 6 35's from 50 miles away and so far the 35 can't see the 22's. If/when the 22's fire, the 35's will have a moment to pick them up on radar. The chances are the 35's will pick up the missiles flying at them before they pick up the 22's. Since each 35 has a missile dedicated to it the 22's have only fired 6 missiles. By the time there are even in visual range the 35's will be trying to evade the missiles fired at them. But let them think they can do it, maybe it will slow down the development of new aircraft.



6 dead SU35's


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## Matt308 (May 30, 2009)

Now do the same with one F-22 and 2-F-15s v 6-Su-35s. F-15s are outside of IR detection and are emitting no electromagnetic radiation (i.e. radar/comm). F-22 slides in first and detects -35s, while not being seen. Target information datalinked to f-15s for BVR engagement. Target updates to missiles made F-22 still undetected and F-15s BVR.

F-22 has engaged 6 Su-35s and not fired a shot.

Now what about F-22 AESA capability for not only detection, but spoofing and directed energy attacks. Things get real interesting then.


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## davebender (May 30, 2009)

There has been a considerable amount of air combat over the past 30 years involving F-14s, F-15s, F-16s and F-18s. The American made fighter aircraft kicked butt every time. I suspect that American made F-22s and F-35s are better still.


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## Matt308 (May 30, 2009)

It's what can't be written that makes for real intrigue. Wish I knew it all.


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## Lucky13 (May 31, 2009)

This is all about what if they met non stealth fighters.....what will happen when they meet a fighter that ARE stealth like themself, HOW do they perform then.....stealth isn't exactly something that you have monopoly on.
Are they as good as they say playing at level with another stealth fighter? The day will come when everybody or most, will have stealth fighters which will make IR and radar missiles useless.....and we're back to bullets and the old blues.


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## Matt308 (May 31, 2009)

Lucky that's like asking to compare airplanes that fly fast. What is meant by "stealth"? Right now, we can use your same terms in comparing the 5th generation F-22/-35 with say... a US F-18E/F (I say US because many of the FCS technology is not sold to foreign countries). Both airframes are technically "stealthy", but the F-18E/F is no match for the F-22. So what "stealthy" airplanes are you referring to? Or were you just posing a hypothetical?


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## Lucky13 (May 31, 2009)

Just a hypothetical one mate....


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## Burmese Bandit (Jun 1, 2009)

A very simple answer. If the Russians and the Chinese thought stealth and datasharing wasn't important, they would be ignoring reasearch and development in that area and frantically producing as many Sukhois as possible.

Whereas in real life, they are only producing just enough Sukhois to fill in the slots in their squardrons, and frantically researching stealth and data sharing.

Case closed.


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## Glider (Jun 1, 2009)

Burmese Bandit said:


> A very simple answer. If the Russians and the Chinese thought stealth and datasharing wasn't important, they would be ignoring reasearch and development in that area and frantically producing as many Sukhois as possible.
> 
> Whereas in real life, they are only producing just enough Sukhois to fill in the slots in their squardrons, and frantically researching stealth and data sharing.
> 
> Case closed.



Well put


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## mkloby (Jun 1, 2009)

Lucky13 said:


> This is all about what if they met non stealth fighters.....what will happen when they meet a fighter that ARE stealth like themself, HOW do they perform then.....stealth isn't exactly something that you have monopoly on.
> Are they as good as they say playing at level with another stealth fighter? The day will come when everybody or most, will have stealth fighters which will make IR and radar missiles useless.....and we're back to bullets and the old blues.



You have a point - but IR missiles "see" the infrared bands, so if they can acquire the heat source they will awlays be a threat. There is also new missile technology that is making its way on the scene as well.


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## Capt. Vick (Jun 1, 2009)

...where is Russia going to get the money to produce/buy all these 4th gen "wonder" fighters? From what I understand the economic crisis has hit them harder then us. 

Could be wrong though, as my wife likes to point out.


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## Matt308 (Jun 1, 2009)

PAK-FA is 20 years behind. Surely it will have some surprises, but still 20+yrs behind. Hells bells the F-22 is an early 1990s airplane!!!

Russia doesn't have the $$$. And as much as it might be counter-claimed, Russia is increasingly leery of sharing technology with the ChiComs, since everytime Russia gives them technology they steal it and then compete on the world market against the Russian defense economy for the very same market niche.

There is no comparable 5th generation fighter to the F-22/F-35. Now, nor planned.


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## Glider (Jun 2, 2009)

As long as the PAK-FA and Russia are dependent on stealing technology and/or copying other aircraft and technologies then they will always be at least 11/2 generations behind the USA and other western nations. Russia doesn't have the money or the people, China doesn't have the technology or people and they both have significant internal issues.

When the next Microsoft, Google, NASA type probe, Boeing or Aerospatiale Type Company, innovative microwave communication device or other new technology, comes from Russia or China, then and only then, will there be a cause for concern. I cannot see that happening as to develop an F22 type aircraft you need to blend a lot of technology with one aim. Having one piece of the puzzle is of little benefit.


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## uberninja (Jun 2, 2009)

drgondog said:


> Until the 'adversary' force deploys stealth technology and/or defeats it - they can't kill what they can't see. Missle technology combined by radar capabilities sez that F-35 and F-22 have a distinct advantage well before the merge.
> 
> the capability of a 22/35 hitting his adversary 50-100 miles away at night (or day) while remaining unseen for example, makes it tough to contemplate why any 4th Gen Russian Fighter has an advantage.



apart from where you have foolhardy pilots


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## FLYBOYJ (Jun 2, 2009)

uberninja said:


> apart from where you have foolhardy pilots



Please define


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## Stitch (Jun 2, 2009)

Matt308 said:


> There is no comparable 5th generation fighter to the F-22/F-35. Now, nor planned.



I'm sure there are some planned (India?), but they're a good 10-20 years out, minimum; there's nothing to compete with the F-22/35 now, or for the forseeable future.


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