# Brewster Buffalo



## Snautzer01 (Sep 25, 2016)




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## Wurger (Sep 25, 2016)




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## Greg Boeser (Sep 25, 2016)

Here is an aircraft that demonstrates that its not the aircraft, but the pilot flying the aircraft. Highly trained and aggressive Finnish Air Force pilots racked up enormous kill claims flying against poorly trained Soviet pilots from 41-43, and was the most successful aircraft in the Finnish Air Force until the arrival of Bf 109s in mid '43.
In American and Commonwealth hands, poorly trained pilots hampered by bad leadership were completely outclassed by highly trained and aggressive Japanese pilots flying aircraft that were in many ways inferior to the Buffalo.

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## fubar57 (Sep 25, 2016)

Yep


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## Old Wizard (Sep 25, 2016)




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## LDSModeller (Sep 26, 2016)

Greg Boeser said:


> Here is an aircraft that demonstrates that its not the aircraft, but the pilot flying the aircraft. Highly trained and aggressive Finnish Air Force pilots racked up enormous kill claims flying against poorly trained Soviet pilots from 41-43, and was the most successful aircraft in the Finnish Air Force until the arrival of Bf 109s in mid '43.
> In American and Commonwealth hands, poorly trained pilots hampered by bad leadership were completely outclassed by highly trained and aggressive Japanese pilots flying aircraft that were in many ways inferior to the Buffalo.



Quite a number of Commonwealth Pilots (Aussie & Kiwi) made Ace or 3 or more kills, flying the Buffalo.
The likes of Geoff Fisken (Highest Scoring Commonwealth Pilot in the Pacific) developed tactics that beat the Japanese. To say that the all Commonwealth pilots were out classed is not true. The Commonwealth pilots proved just as aggresive in taking the fight to the Japanese. Two to one kill ratio to the Commonwealth and Dutch pilots says enough.
Poor early warning was a major factor, once the pilots were able to get in the air, more often than not the raiders had moved on. The .50 cal MG the Buffalo was armed with proved to be a major issue in working properly. 
The Dutch Buffalos with the higher powered engine could match the Japanese. Bad enginerring choices by Brewster in using 2nd hand engines proved to be a hampering, the pilots could do with out.
The other contributing factor was superior numbers won out in the end for the Japanese.
As for bad leadership, higher ranking maybe, 488 Squadron had 3 Battle of Britain veteran pilots who provided very good leadership, in taking the fight to the Japanese.

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## Greg Boeser (Sep 26, 2016)

Geoff Fisken was certainly an exceptional pilot, having well over 250 hours in the Buffalo before the Japanese attacked. When you quote kill ratios, are these based on claims or comparing actual losses?


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## nuuumannn (Sep 26, 2016)

Greg Boeser said:


> Commonwealth hands, poorly trained pilots hampered by bad leadership



Noooooo. See LSDModeller's post.


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## Greg Boeser (Sep 27, 2016)

I never said ALL Commonwealth pilots were poor. Most were inexperienced. Fisken was by his own admission one of the most experienced Buffalo pilots and did very well. The comparison I was trying to make was the relative quality of pilots flying the Buffalo. LLV 24 was the cream of the Finnish crop, stocked with highly trained veterans and aces of the Winter War. They viewed the F2A as the first choice of the aircraft they had available. Often flying outnumbered they lost very few aircraft against everything the Soviets had to throw at them, I-15s to Yaks. In the Far East, the Commonwealth pilots were mostly fresh out of flight school and most had little transition time in the Buffalo before being called on to defend the Realm. Maintenance was also an issue, the trouble with the guns was a major factor, but also engine problems abounded. This I hold against the leadership, who did more damage than the Japanese in some cases. The loss of 4 out of 6 pilots on 25 December over Rangoon must be laid at the feet of the commander, who after a full two weeks since the start of hostilities still had not installed the pilot armor in most of his planes.

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## nuuumannn (Sep 27, 2016)

> I never said ALL Commonwealth pilots were poor. Most were inexperienced. Fisken was by his own admission one of the most experienced Buffalo pilots and did very well.



Why were they poorly trained? Give evidence to say their training was poor? Inexperience doesn't equate to poor training - you're getting the two confused. Inadequate to deal with the threat maybe, but look at the circumstances; there were relatively experienced RAF pilots - some of whom were Battle of Britain aces (including 12 victory ace Wilf Clouston, a New Zealander) on the ground in Singapore and the British forces were utterly overwhelmed by the Japanese, was this because _their_ training was poor? Keep digging; you'll get to the bottom eventually.



Greg Boeser said:


> The loss of 4 out of 6 pilots on 25 December over Rangoon must be laid at the feet of the commander, who after a full two weeks since the start of hostilities still had not installed the pilot armor in most of his planes.



I think blaming the commanding officers for not fitting armour to the Buffalo for failure on one day's fighting is a little simplistic, don't you think? Even if armour plating had been fitted, the end result would have been the same - the fall of Singapore and did the Finns have the same issues of lack of armour plating? The British and Commonwealth forces could have had Spitfires and the end result would have been the same. The situation between the Finns and the RAF in Singapore were vastly different and the result was not because of 'poor' training, nor was it because of the incompetence of commanders on the ground.

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## GrauGeist (Sep 28, 2016)

Greg Boeser said:


> In American and Commonwealth hands, poorly trained pilots hampered by bad leadership were completely outclassed by highly trained and aggressive Japanese pilots flying aircraft that were in many ways inferior to the Buffalo.


I might step in here and make a comment regarding "poorly trained American pilots".
Both my Great Uncles were in the United States Army Air Corps and received the full measure of pilot training before the war. It was a time consuming and rigorous course that many candidates did not graduate. The Japanese school was no better than the American school, which was no better than the British school, which was no better than the German school. You can see how attrition lowered the quality of the Japanese and Luftwaffe pilots as the war drug on because the length of the pilot training was literally cut from months to weeks.

The fact of the matter is, the Japanese had been at war for years before the U.S. became involved and this must be taken into consideration when comparing Japanese versus U.S. performance in the early days.

Experience in the cockpit will take priority over the aircraft every time.

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## Snautzer01 (Sep 28, 2016)

The RAF and USAF were trained al be it with the antiquated tactics. You will (and they did) lose in the larger picture.

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## buffnut453 (Sep 28, 2016)

Many of the RAF pilots lacked adequate training as they were products of the rapidly-expanded EATS which pushed pilots through a much-shortened training programme. The training was pared down to bare minima compared to the pre-war training system.

In addition, many Buffalo pilots were inexperienced. Several had never flown an aircraft with an enclosed cockpit, flaps or retractable undercarriage until they did their "conversion course" on the 6 Wirraways of W Flt. Combat experience was even more sparsely spread. Across all 5 RAF Buffalo squadrons in the Far East, I count only 7 pilots that had combat experience in single-engine fighters prior to the Japanese attacks:

Sqn Ldr Howell (CO of 243 Sqn)
Sqn Ldr Harper (CO of 453 Sqn)
Sqn Ldr Clouston (CO of 488 Sqn)
Flt Lt MacKenzie, 488 Sqn
Flt Lt Pinckney, 67 Sqn
Flt Lt Vigors, 243 Sqn/453 Sqn
F/O Wigglesworth, 67 Sqn
Some 113 pilots flew Buffalos operationally during the fighting for Malaya and Singapore. That means only 6.2% of the pilots had _*any*_ operational fighter experience. I'd be interested to know whether any other similarly-sized group of RAF fighter squadrons in late-1941 had such a low level of combat experience.

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## GrauGeist (Sep 28, 2016)

Snautzer01 said:


> The RAF and USAF were trained al be it with the antiquated tactics. You will (and they did) lose in the larger picture.


And yet the Japanese were surprised at the fight that the US put up with their P-40s and P-36s during the Pearl Harbor attack.

The U.S. was not lacking in tactics, they had obervers (and volunteer pilots) involved in the Battle of Britain, the Spanish Civil War and overseas in Asia. They also had modern (for the day) advanced trainer aircraft like the Seversky AT-12, the North American AT-6/SNJ, SNJ-1 and similar types.

The limiting factor that put the US pilots (Army/Navy) at a huge disadvantage, was their experience.

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## Greg Boeser (Sep 29, 2016)

You are correct. I mischaracterized the pilots as poorly trained. Inexperienced is the word I should have used. As in no experience with aerial gunnery, combat flying, etc. Many pilots in the Phillipines had just graduated flight school and had almost no time in fighters at the outbreak of hostilities.
That the Japanese were surprised by the fight put up is a symptom of their own propaganda that all westerners were soft.


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## GrauGeist (Sep 29, 2016)

Perhaps one of the biggest problems the Allied pilots had, in dealing with the Japanese early on, is that they were trying to fight them with European tactics with aircraft that simply were not on a par with the Ki-43 and early A6M types and they faced a huge learning curve until newer, more agile types were introduced, that could counter the Japanese types' performance.

Until then, they learned to rely on their better armor and tactics like the "Thatch Weave" to survive.

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## Snautzer01 (Sep 29, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> And yet the Japanese were surprised at the fight that the US put up with their P-40s and P-36s during the Pearl Harbor attack.
> 
> .



The Japanese lost more planes in incidents in landing after attack 2 nd wave that they lost in combat. I do not think the very few they lost against fighters would have bothered them much.

There is a nice piece on the Pearl attack in this (see pic)

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## buffnut453 (Sep 29, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> Perhaps one of the biggest problems the Allied pilots had, in dealing with the Japanese early on, is that they were trying to fight them with European tactics with aircraft that simply were not on a par with the Ki-43 and early A6M types and they faced a huge learning curve until newer, more agile types were introduced, that could counter the Japanese types' performance.
> 
> Until then, they learned to rely on their better armor and tactics like the "Thatch Weave" to survive.



I think this is a bit of an oversimplification. For example, VMF-221 at Midway (just to bring it back to Buffalos) weren't using "European tactics", and I doubt greatly that the P-40s in the Philippines adopted anything other than USAAF doctrine and tactics. There isn't much evidence regarding the tactics used by RAF Buffalos, although Geoff Fisken did mention changing from turning tactics to boom-and-zoom (akin to the AVG) to improve odds of survival. There are well-known pre-conflict photos of a full squadron-sized Buffalo formation (243 Sqn were the protagonists) flying in nice tight vics. If that tactical formation was in use across all Buffalo squadrons, then that indicates some dated thinking about even the European tactical environment where, by late 1941, the 3-ship vic was being replaced by the battle pair and "finger four". Here's one of the well-known pics of the 243 Sqn formation showing clearly the vic tactical units:






The other tactical consideration that must be stated is the lack of flexibility displayed by Air HQ Far East (AHQFE) in Singapore when it came to planning and directing operations. There seems to have been a mantra that bombers were the only assets to be used for attack while fighters were solely for defence. Rather than tackling the IJAAF head-on in the air, it is my considered opinion that far greater damage could have been achieved if AHQFE had ordered Buffalo strafing missions against Japanese-occupied airfields in Thailand and, later, northern Malaya. Japanese airfield defences weren't great and a series of massed attacks, similar to the AVG raid on Chieng Mai, could have dealt a major blow to IJAAF operations and air dominance in Malaya. The Buffalo was a very capable strafing platform, as evidenced by Tsuji's account of the Malayan Campaign (although he misidentifies the strafing aircraft as Hurricanes).

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## Marcel (Sep 29, 2016)

Most forget when discussing the merits an faults of the buffalo, the tactical situation they were in. I speak for the NEI as I know that situation best. The NEI area is the same size as the whole of Europe and was defended by around 80 buffalo's, part of which was used to help the British defend Singapore. So the line was very thin. There was no early warning to speak off. In such a situation, the attacker based on carriers has an enormeous advantage. He can strike where he wants and at the height wants, always having the height advantage. Even a very good aircraft would struggle in that situation. Hurricanes in the far East almost had a worse record than the buffalo while they could hold their ground during the BoB. Dutch pilots were not badly trained not inexperienced, maybe the commonwealth were, I don't know. The comparison with Finland is not fair as it is a totally different situation. And the Japanese were a much more formidable enemy than the USSR at that time.

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## GrauGeist (Sep 29, 2016)

VMF-221 at Midway was no more experienced than the Army pilots at Pearl, and all pilots (Army/Navy/Marines) at that point in time had gone through pilot training stateside that was based on the tactics and techniques that were gleaned from the war (hands-on, direct observation, intelligence sharing) in Europe that was already underway.

While there was a rough idea of Japanese tactics and aircraft capabilities and weaknesses, it would be a hard learning curve for the Allied pilots in the PTO/CBI and this would be passed on to training units stateside who would then adapt the current training for the new trainees.


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## buffnut453 (Sep 29, 2016)

Just to get this back on track, here are a few more interesting Buffalo pics that came to light recently at the Australian War Memorial. They show a couple of 453 Sqn machines:






This is Buffalo W8210 'TD-Y' following a landing accident on 8 Oct 41.





This is a previously unseen pic of the famous line-up of 453 Sqn and 21 Sqn Buffalos at Sembawang on 19 Nov 41. Nearest aircraft is W8180 'TD-U'.

Hope these are of interest. The AWM reference numbers are at the bottom right corner of the image for those who wish to procure copies from the Museum.

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## GrauGeist (Sep 29, 2016)

One of my favorite photos of the F2A and perhaps one of the most unusual, is this F2A-1 of VF-3 at North Island NAS, California, 1940.

It's painted in an experimental camouflage, design 1. There is also a gun camera mounted to the starboard fuselage, just below the aerial mast.

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## fubar57 (Sep 29, 2016)

Love that one as well Dave. Mike Grant, I believe a member here, and decal maker residing in Alberta, built a model of that...

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## GrauGeist (Sep 29, 2016)

He did an excellent job with that pattern!


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## fubar57 (Sep 29, 2016)

I think it's 1/72 as well


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## Crimea_River (Sep 29, 2016)

Indeed it was. I talked to Mike about it when he brought it to the local show about 3 or 4 years ago. Mike specializes in the smaller scales and it's a very impressive build.


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## Capt. Vick (Sep 29, 2016)

Groovy man!

By the way I fired off an email to Jim Maas, the author of Squadron Signal's Buffalo In Action, asking him if he had any pictures of the supposed pressurized version one-off. Let's hope he responds. Been about eight years since we last talked. Honestly, not even sure if he's alive.


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## buffnut453 (Sep 29, 2016)

Oh, Jim's still well and truly with us. Of that I'm sure.


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## Greg Boeser (Sep 29, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> Perhaps one of the biggest problems the Allied pilots had, in dealing with the Japanese early on, is that they were trying to fight them with European tactics with aircraft that simply were not on a par with the Ki-43 and early A6M types and they faced a huge learning curve until newer, more agile types were introduced, that could counter the Japanese types' performance.
> 
> Until then, they learned to rely on their better armor and tactics like the "Thatch Weave" to survive.


I would hardly call the heavier, faster planes the Allies fielded as the war progressed as "more agile". I think Erik Schilling said it best, though I can no longer find his quote, that the problem that the Allies faced going in was they were trying to use their aircraft the wrong way. They were trying to use a rifle like a club against a guy armed with a sword. Once they started using their planes properly, things improved.



Marcel said:


> Most forget when discussing the merits an faults of the buffalo, the tactical situation they were in. I speak for the NEI as I know that situation best. The NEI area is the same size as the whole of Europe and was defended by around 80 buffalo's, part of which was used to help the British defend Singapore. So the line was very thin. There was no early warning to speak off. In such a situation, the attacker based on carriers has an enormeous advantage. He can strike where he wants and at the height wants, always having the height advantage. Even a very good aircraft would struggle in that situation. Hurricanes in the far East almost had a worse record than the buffalo while they could hold their ground during the BoB. Dutch pilots were not badly trained not inexperienced, maybe the commonwealth were, I don't know. The comparison with Finland is not fair as it is a totally different situation. And the Japanese were a much more formidable enemy than the USSR at that time.



My comparison with Finland is, if anything, a defense of the Buffalo. Though not a capable aircraft, the defeat in SEA was not due to the shortcomings of the aircraft.

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## GrauGeist (Sep 29, 2016)

Jim, you referring to the F2A-4 project?

The F2A-3 (BuNo 01516) used for the project:


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## Capt. Vick (Sep 30, 2016)

buffnut453 said:


> Oh, Jim's still well and truly with us. Of that I'm sure.



Hmmm... Are you, he?


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## MIflyer (Oct 1, 2016)

Key thing to remember is that the Finns had the earliest version of the F2A, originally issued to the USN, equipped with only two guns and no armor plate or armored windshield. The F2A had only a 30 ft wingspan - the same as my Ercoupe - and when the later models added 2 more guns, armor, and in the case of the Dutch, armored windshields as well, the added weight had a telling effect on the airplane, especially in the high density altitude situations of the Pacific. The RAF in the Pacific even took the four .50 cal guns out and replaced them with .303 guns in order to reduce the weight, although if a Dutch Buffalo was shot up they would sometimes take the armored windshield off and put it on one of theirs.
If not for some real RN command stupidity, we might think differently of the Buffalo today. When the Prince of Wales and the Repulse headed out to intercept the Japanese invasion force headed for Malaya, the commander, Vice-Admiral Phillip, asked for RAF fighter cover. They expected battle location was so far out at sea that the RAF had to say they could not help. The commander must have put fighter cover out of his mind, because he never asked for any after the ships missed intercepting the invasion force and headed back to Singapore. 
There were 4 squadrons of Buffalos in Malaya and the RAF allocated one squadron to give the ships fighter cover. But the commander of the force feared being DFed and held radio messages to a minimum even when he was well within range of the fighters. 
The Nell and Betty bombers that attacked the ships had no fighter escort. The IJN did not think they needed any given that there was no aircraft carrier with the two ships. The Buffalos were none too great airplanes but 13 of them arriving while the Nells and Bettys were setting up their attacks could have been a rude shock to the IJN. As it was, the RAF launched the Buffalos when they heard a message from Phillips that enemy aircraft had been sighted but they got there just as the Prince of Wales was going down. The poor old Buffalo could have been known as the fighter that saved those ships and savaged the Japanese bombers if someone had given it even half a chance. 
By the way, the first of the Eagle squadrons, 71, in Great Britain was equipped with the Buffalo, and the squadron commander ordered his pilots to land with the tail wheel unlocked, thereby ensuring a ground loop that would damage the airplane. After all the Buffalos were wrecked they were reequipped with Hurricanes.
And I would like to recommend an excellent book I just finished reading, "Bombers Versus Battleships."

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## Capt. Vick (Oct 1, 2016)

I put Jim Maas's answer in the dedicated thread for the XF2A-4.

"Brewster Buffalo XF2A-4"


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## Capt. Vick (Oct 1, 2016)

GrauGeist said:


> Jim, you referring to the F2A-4 project?
> 
> The F2A-3 (BuNo 01516) used for the project:
> View attachment 353791



Perhaps. I don't know much about it at all?


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## Lefa (Oct 1, 2016)

MIflyer said:


> Key thing to remember is that the Finns had the earliest version of the F2A, originally issued to the USN, equipped with only two guns and no armor plate or armored windshield. The F2A had only a 30 ft wingspan - the same as my Ercoupe - and when the later models added 2 more guns, armor, and in the case of the Dutch, armored windshields as well, the added weight had a telling effect on the airplane, especially in the high density altitude situations of the Pacific. The RAF in the Pacific even took the four .50 cal guns out and replaced them with .303 guns in order to reduce the weight, although if a Dutch Buffalo was shot up they would sometimes take the armored windshield off and put it on one of theirs.
> ."


Wrong, FA2 Finnish version was installed in Finland, four 12.7 mm machine guns, and armored seat. The plane was despite the almost 400 kg lighter than the F2A3 (empty weight). No bullet-proof windscreen or rubber-coated tanks.
File:Brewster Model 239 (BW-372) front.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

On the left is the seat armor, which has been broken bullet hit

More pic... The World's Best Photos of bw372 and finland - Flickr Hive Mind


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## Greg Boeser (Oct 1, 2016)

Yeah, my history seems a bit different than MIFlyer's. Also, the Dutch were the ones scrounging armo(u)red windscreens from RAF wrecks.
I will say it again, the Buffalo took it on the chin in SEA not because it was inferior to its opposition, one would be hard pressed to argue that a 330 mph fighter with armor and 4 x .50 caliber guns was inferior to the most numerous enemy fighter type, the sub 300 mph, fixed gear, twin rifle caliber armed Ki-27, that relied on the obsolete telescopic sight. But attitudes about it by the RAF command, especially those coming from BoB experience, coupled with low levels of training and experience in aircrew and maintenance, made it an easy scapegoat for the collapse in the East. Most people who flew the Buff and the Hurricane preferred the Buff.

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## fubar57 (Oct 2, 2016)

Greg Boeser said:


> ...... When you quote kill ratios, are these based on claims or comparing actual losses?



One of the numbers I have is 68 kills with 34 probable and the Dutch claimed 55 enemy aircraft destroyed. The Japanese claimed about 60 shot down and 40 destroyed on the ground of the RAF. The Dutch lost 30 in air combat and 15 on the ground. The Brewster RAF numbers come from the book "Buffaloes over Singapore", the Dutch/Japanese numbers come from "F2A Buffalo in action" and the Japanese/RAF numbers come from the web


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## Snautzer01 (Oct 2, 2016)




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## buffnut453 (Oct 2, 2016)

Greg Boeser said:


> Yeah, my history seems a bit different than MIFlyer's. Also, the Dutch were the ones scrounging armo(u)red windscreens from RAF wrecks.trtry
> I will say it again, the Buffalo took it on the chin in SEA not because it was inferior to its opposition, one would be hard pressed to argue that a 330 mph fighter with armor and 4 x .50 caliber guns was inferior to the most numerous enemy fighter type, the sub 300 mph, fixed gear, twin rifle caliber armed Ki-27, that relied on the obsolete telescopic sight. But attitudes about it by the RAF command, especially those coming from BoB experience, coupled with low levels of training and experience in aircrew and maintenance, made it an easy scapegoat for the collapse in the East. Most people who flew the Buff and the Hurricane preferred the Buff.



Excellent points. AHQFE wanted the Buffalo to be used primarily as a defensive asset but there was no organized ground control system, meaning the few available squadrons were used sub-optimally. Much effort was expended by 453 Sqn simply in ensuring a constant patrol over their own airfield because they didn't know if/when the Japanese would attack them. Keeping 2 aircraft in the air constantly over an airfield is a tremendous drain in resources that were already too few in number. 

The situation was made far worse by Japanese numerical superiority. Front-line strength of Buffalo squadrons was 90 airframes at the outbreak of the fighting but even if all units operated in squadron-sized formations, they would scarcely get 60 aircraft in the air. The IJAAF had 59 Ki-43s and some 114 Ki-27s at the outbreak of the conflict. 

Using the Ki-27s to defend shipping routes and forward airfields freed the two Ki-43 Sentai to conduct offensive counter air missions and, as the attacking force, had the freedom of deciding where and when to attack. By comparison, the RAF's Buffalos had to try and defend everywhere at once, including providing escort for resupply convoys coming into Singapore. With scarcely a full squadron complement in Malaya and no effective radar or ground control system, the odds were stacked against the smaller RAF force.

The biggest challenge the Japanese faced was lack of operational reserves - they had no ready mechanism to replace combat casualties. A more aggressive stance by AHQFE, employing Buffalos on airfield strafing missions, might have taken a greater toll of IJAAF air strength, and caused some real challenges for the invading forces and limiting their ability to achieve air superiority. Unfortunately, such thoughts never entered the minds of the AHQFE decision-makers and the rest is history. It's also highly questionable whether it would have made any difference in the long run. The overall mindset in Singapore was to defend until reinforcements arrived. The campaign might have been more costly for the Japanese but the ultimate result probably wouldn't have changed.


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## varsity07840 (Nov 14, 2016)

Greg Boeser said:


> Yeah, my history seems a bit different than MIFlyer's. Also, the Dutch were the ones scrounging armo(u)red windscreens from RAF wrecks.
> I will say it again, the Buffalo took it on the chin in SEA not because it was inferior to its opposition, one would be hard pressed to argue that a 330 mph fighter with armor and 4 x .50 caliber guns was inferior to the most numerous enemy fighter type, the sub 300 mph, fixed gear, twin rifle caliber armed Ki-27, that relied on the obsolete telescopic sight. But attitudes about it by the RAF command, especially those coming from BoB experience, coupled with low levels of training and experience in aircrew and maintenance, made it an easy scapegoat for the collapse in the East. Most people who flew the Buff and the Hurricane preferred the Buff.


RAF Buffalos were hard pressed to hit 310 MPH at their best altitude, which was pretty low. Four .50 cal. guns are worthless if they can't be brought to bear on a fast climbing tiny aircraft that could turn on a dime. The Ki-27 may have 
been slower than the Buffalo but it's acceration rate was much faster from crushing speed to combat speed thus negating the Buffalos slight max speed advantage which took all day to attain. As far as telescopic gunsights go, I don' t think the scores of Commonwealth and Dutch pilots shot down by JAAF fighters ( the early Ki-43 used the same sight)
were critical of their opponents lack of reflector sights.

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## buffnut453 (Nov 14, 2016)

varsity07840 said:


> RAF Buffalos were hard pressed to hit 310 MPH at their best altitude, which was pretty low. Four .50 cal. guns are worthless if they can't be brought to bear on a fast climbing tiny aircraft that could turn on a dime. The Ki-27 may have been slower than the Buffalo but it's acceration rate was much faster from crushing speed to combat speed thus negating the Buffalos slight max speed advantage which took all day to attain. As far as telescopic gunsights go, I don' t think the scores of Commonwealth and Dutch pilots shot down by JAAF fighters ( the early Ki-43 used the same sight) were critical of their opponents lack of reflector sights.



Sorry but I fail to grasp the point you're making. Top speed has nothing to do with the speed at which the maximum rate of climb is achieved. Also, acceleration will not negate a speed advantage, particularly in a 3-D combat where diving speed is used as a suitable tactic against a slower but more manoeuverable adversary. 

Read what Geoff Fisken had to say about the tactics employed, "The only thing to do was to get as much height as possible above any Japs before making an attack - preferably two or three thousand feet - when you could make the initial attack and have enough speed created in the dive to go around for a second go...This did not always work as the Jap planes outnumbered us by 10-20 to one but when it did we got victories. When it did not, we got out and lived for another go next day."

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## Greg Boeser (Nov 14, 2016)

Right. Too many people want to blame the aircraft, when the real disparity was training and experience. More than one veteran has said that had all the Allies been equipped with P-51s at the start of the "Great Pacific War", they still would have been defeated by the Japanese.
Reason - The pilots facing the Japanese in the first few months of the war were simply too inexperienced to use their planes to the best advantage. The Finns facing the Soviets found themselves on the other side of the coin. The Finns had excellent training, experience and maintenance, and faced inexperienced and poorly led opponents. By 1943, this edge had gone, the Brewsters were wearing out, and the Soviets were able to devote more and better aircraft and aircrew to what was for them a secondary front.

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## buffnut453 (Nov 15, 2016)

Training and experience were factors but so, too, were outright numbers, lack of early warning and poor tasking, none of which have anything to do with the qualities of the airframe involved. A Spitfire caught on the ground due to lack of warning of an incoming raid will burn just as easily as a Buffalo.

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## Greg Boeser (Nov 15, 2016)

buffnut453 said:


> Training and experience were factors but so, too, were outright numbers, lack of early warning and poor tasking, none of which have anything to do with the qualities of the airframe involved. A Spitfire caught on the ground due to lack of warning of an incoming raid will burn just as easily as a Buffalo.


I certainly can't argue with that.


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## varsity07840 (Nov 16, 2016)

buffnut453 said:


> Sorry but I fail to grasp the point you're making. Top speed has nothing to do with the speed at which the maximum rate of climb is achieved. Also, acceleration will not negate a speed advantage, particularly in a 3-D combat where diving speed is used as a suitable tactic against a slower but more manoeuverable adversary.
> 
> Read what Geoff Fisken had to say about the tactics employed, "The only thing to do was to get as much height as possible above any Japs before making an attack - preferably two or three thousand feet - when you could make the initial attack and have enough speed created in the dive to go around for a second go...This did not always work as the Jap planes outnumbered us by 10-20 to one but when it did we got victories. When it did not, we got out and lived for another go next day."



Read what Mr. Shores wrote in Bloody Shambles regarding performance of Allied fighters vs Japanese at the start of the war and why text book maximum speed of an aircraft is not always a game winner. The Buffalo took all day to accelerate to combat speed when bounced, which is normally what happened due to its poor rate of climb and service ceiling. The same can be said for P-39s in New Guinea in early 1942.

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## buffnut453 (Nov 17, 2016)

varsity07840 said:


> Read what Mr. Shores wrote in Bloody Shambles regarding performance of Allied fighters vs Japanese at the start of the war and why text book maximum speed of an aircraft is not always a game winner. The Buffalo took all day to accelerate to combat speed when bounced, which is normally what happened due to its poor rate of climb and service ceiling. The same can be said for P-39s in New Guinea in early 1942.



I never said anything about text book maximum speeds. Speed is just one of many variables that are constantly changing during air combat. Acceleration is another. Both are entirely dependent on power setting and aircraft attitude. The Buffalo actually accelerated very well in the dive which is why Geoff Fisken employed the tactics he described. The Buffalo's climb rate was poor, and its service ceiling less than stellar. However, those aren't the only reasons why the Buffalo often found itself at a tactical disadvantage. Again, per one of my earlier posts, lack of adequate early warning and a ground control system that was virtually non-existent were far more significant operational limitations than the Buffalo's flight performance during the Malayan Campaign.

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## Lefa (Dec 31, 2016)

Brewster F2A - Maailma Palaa
Some pictures...

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## Wurger (Dec 31, 2016)

Really great selection of pictures there. THX for posting.


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## Old Wizard (Dec 31, 2016)




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## Gnomey (Dec 31, 2016)

Good stuff!


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## Capt. Vick (Dec 31, 2016)

Great link, thank you.


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## vikingBerserker (Jan 2, 2017)

That is a great link, thanks!


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## Lefa (Jan 2, 2017)

Aces Wild: An American Testpilot in Wartime Europe by Winston, Robert A.: Holiday House, N.Y. Hardcover, 1st Edition - Kisselburg Military Books
Or
Aces wild, (Book, 1941) [WorldCat.org]

Or

Aces Wild

The test pilot Robert Winston, who test fly each Brewster in Trollhättan before they flying to Finland.
Also his training battle against the Fiat G50, and test flight P35 plane.
He is not very vivid writer, but a lot of interesting stuff.


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## Snautzer01 (Feb 15, 2017)

W8131 NX1478

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## vikingBerserker (Feb 15, 2017)

Nice!


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## Wurger (Feb 15, 2017)




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## Old Wizard (Feb 15, 2017)




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## Snautzer01 (Sep 27, 2019)

Foto Finnische Luftwaffe: Brewster Buffalo Jagdflugzeug | eBay

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## Wurger (Sep 27, 2019)




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## Lefa (Jan 29, 2020)

Press article in Finnish Iltalehti, google translation below.
Iltalehti shortcut Some photos also!

At the turn of October and November 1939, the Finnish Broadcasting Company announced: “Uolevi Alvesalo, Lieutenant of the Air Force, you have been born twin boys. Mom and boys are doing well. ”
Lieutenant Alvesalo had already been assigned to additional refresher exercises in October.
"The fact that our birth was announced on the Finnish Broadcasting Company must have been quite extraordinary," says Ilpo Alvesalo, another of Uolevi's and Lea Alvesalo's twin sons.
November 30, 1939 The Soviet Union invaded Finland and the Winter War began. The twin boys had to be baptized in candlelight when Helsinki was bombed.
During the Winter War, only a few reserve pilots entered the fronts because there were more pilots than scarce aircraft. When the Continuation War broke out, the Reserve Directors also got into action.
Fatal flight
On January 29, 1942, it was sunny, with frost minus 30 degrees.
At the Tiiksjärvi air base in Karelia, the squadron of 24 squadrons was on the narrow narrow berths. The pilots woke up in a bitter morning. The first wake-up flight attendant “Pappa” Turkka lit a fireplace and put a replacement coffee on the fire.
The silence of the morning was broken by the phone's hesitation, to which the flight attendant responded. The Air Force Headquarters had been given instructions and ordered a reconnaissance flight from Merimaasel to Petrozavodsk and Sekeh.
- Up the poppies! the flight attendant commented.
The Brewster fighters stood with the engines pre-heated between the big rigs. The sun was shining and the frosts glistened brightly. Noon fame reached Eka Magnusson led the fleet: five aircraft took off and went to make a reconnaissance mission in the Murmansk track. The planes were flew by Nissinen and Kinnunen, Sergeants Lampi and Lehto, and Lieutenant Alvesalo.
In severe freezing weather, pilots were ordered to test their fighter jets at the start of the flight. The frost could solidify the grease of the machine guns so that the guns were no longer working.
Next to Lieutenant Alvesalo was Sergeant Heimo Lampi. The men-driven fighter jets flew at a height of about 500 meters in a parade wedge. Soon, Alvesalo informed Lamm by radio that a small lake could be seen below where the Brewster rifles could be tested.
Alvesalo nodded to Lamme and steered his own plane down. The lieutenant pressed the trigger button on the machine guns, but only two of the four machine guns on the machine spit his crackling projectile onto the ice. Alvesalo immediately made new charging strokes and pressed the machine gun launch button again.
At that moment, he noticed that the tree tops were already up to the plane. The clear sky and the eye-facing sun had cleared the horizon from the pilot, and Alvesalo's plane collided with the icy lake.
"What's that man doing?"
Sergeant Lampi, who flown next to Alvesalo, described the events of January Thursday in his book The Last Downsides (WSOY 1967):
- The snow cover on the lake glows and glows stunningly as we approach it at 450 kilometers per hour. I squint my eyes and glance at Alvesalo, who is drooling on the left in the foreground. I see him playing in the cab in the front.
Lampi got to test his own machine guns, which are working properly. In his book, he describes the events as follows:
- The surface of the lake is approaching fast, but Alvesalo continues to plunge. What's that man doing? I still see him in the forefront position, and he doesn't seem to have any intention of rectifying the machine. At about five meters high, my pace plane was horizontal. At the same time, Alvesalo's plane hits the ice with tremendous force. A tall statue of snow throws up into the air and everywhere in front of me is flying pieces of a crushed machine. A depressing sight opens under me - the Brewster fighter jet in Alvesalo has been crushed completely. Its fragments are about three hundred meters apart. The smoky engine and the tail of the machine are the largest pieces left of the machine.

Parts of a Brewster fighter colliding with an icy lake spread about three hundred meters. The engine and tail of the machine are the biggest pieces left of it. Alvesalo's home album
Sergeant Lampi circled around the broken plane trying to find Alvesalo's body:
"It seems to me that he has broken down in the same way as his machine," Lampi writes.
It seems to me that he has broken down in the same way as his machine.
Searching in vain for his comrade's body, Lampi communicates via radio with Captain Ahola: "Alve's sleep, machine's sleep." That meant the destroyer was a scrap and Alvesalo was dead.
Lampi was ordered to continue his reconnaissance task. Later, the patrol would come down with a stick to retrieve the deceased.
Godfather and miracle cure
Sergeant Lampi mourned the death of his fellow pilot and the fact that Alvesalo's little twin boys were fatherless.
When the four pilots landed after completing their mission back to Lake Tiiksjärvi, they decided to co-opt the "Alve" twin boys into the squad's godson. The pilots promised to train both boys until the age of sixteen, and still clapped their hands on the seal.
But really, Alvesalo wasn't dead:
- Under Hangen was like beautiful organ music, the man himself later recalled his awakening after the collision.
He had been unconscious for about one and a half hours after the plane crashed inside a one meter thick hangar.
He had been unconscious for about one and a half hours after the plane crashed inside a one meter thick hangar.
The spirit of Alvesalo had been saved by the armored seat of the plane, for although Brewster had been almost completely fragmented, the pilot's armored seat had been thrown through the canopy into a snow project. Under the hanging, the seat had still slid tens of meters inside the snow, which prevented the pilot from seeing the air.
After reaching the lake from the organic cave, Alvesalo noted that his left ankle had been fractured. There were open sores on the head and bruises on the shoulders and stomach that had been made by the down belts.
At first, Alvesalo, in shock, remembered nothing of the whole accident, but thought that his enemy had shot down his plane on the Soviet side. Alvesalo started looking for skis to fly safely from the junk. Suddenly, he heard the sound of the airplane and hid under a piece detached from the airplane as he thought the enemy aircraft had come looking for him.
In fact, the fighter jets were 24 fighter planes from Finland, returning from their reconnaissance flight to the Muurmann track.
Some time later, two people appeared on the edge of the forest with them. The Finns had come to ski to retrieve Alvesalo's body.
It was quite a surprise when it came to light that the man was alive and not badly injured.
The lieutenant was transported through an ear to an ambulance to take him to Ontasenvaara Field Hospital. Information about Alvesalo's survival was sent to the Tiiksjärvi squadron from the hospital. The news was received with great joy in the pilots' barracks, and even more so when "Alve" returned some time later and returned to the crowd.
Alvesalo's spirit was saved by good fortune and the fighter's armored seat that protected the pilot. Alvesalo's home album
Run into the swamp
The first flight after the accident was mentally challenging, but soon the feelings of fear leveled off.
Alvesalo also got into action on the evening of June 8, 1942, when ten enemy fighters and seven bomber units approached the base of the Tiiksjärvi air fleet. The combat flight was supposed to get 10 Brewsters, but when one of the planes seemed to be left without a pilot, Alvesalo, who was on a rest flight, offered to join the enemy. He did not even change clothes, but was dressed only in nets and an old patrol uniform.
Twins, Ilpo (left) and Lassi Alvesalo with their mother Lea Alvesalo. Alvesalo's home album
Alvesalo dropped a Russian Hurricane before a machine gun jet pierced his machine's fuel tank. The lieutenant had to make a forced landing in the swamp, where the plane slid like a winged canoe. Flood flooded into the cockpit and the landing rush ended on a cuckoo bulge growing on the island.
Immediately after the forced landing, Alve left to sneak out of the mire. The Finnish front line was about 10 kilometers away, and in a vague tracksuit, being caught behind the lines could at worst end up being a spy shooter.
Fortunately, the lost pilot had reached the front line. When Alvesalo ended up near Rukavaara, he encountered a Finnish guard who was waiting to arrive.
Alvesalo was in luck this time too, as the adjacent front line stationed a company that had recently entered the front line, and inexperienced soldiers could have gunned down a strangely dressed passerby.
Despite the destruction of Lieutenant's aircraft, Sekehe's air battle was a success for the Finns, as by number the overwhelming enemy lost five Hurricanes, and there were no personal losses.
Joint meetings
Lieutenant Alvesalo's twin sons Ilpo and Lassi, who were taken as the godson of the Air Force 24, later trained as dentists and researchers. Ilpo is an adjunct professor of epidemiology at the University of Helsinki and emeritus professor of genetics at Lassi University of Oulu.
Ilpo Alvesalo is one of Uolevi Alvesalo's twin sons born on the eve of the Winter War. He was 80 years old with his brother last October. Piia Alvesalo
- Our father told us about these wartime events. He was very happy that these fellow pilots took us as godparents - my dad thought it was a great thing, says Ilpo Alvesalo.
During the war, two younger brothers, Tapio and Simo, were born to the Alvesalo family.
The pilots followed the education and success of the twin boys for a decade. The twins met them for the last time in the late 1980s.
- It was a really nice meeting. They were praised for taking us as godparents and for their homes.
- They were our spiritual godparents for the rest of their lives, Ilpo Alvesalo, who turns 80 in October, concludes.

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## Snautzer01 (Feb 11, 2020)

1941 Press Photo England's Royal Air Force in daily practice over Singapore. | eBay

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## fubar57 (Feb 12, 2020)

Rarely see a herd of Buffalo

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## buffnut453 (Feb 12, 2020)

Seen on ebay:


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## Wurger (Feb 12, 2020)




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## Snautzer01 (Mar 20, 2020)

USN Navy Brewster XF2A-2 Buffalo Fighter Monoplane Aircraft Airplane Photo #79 | eBay


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## Wurger (Mar 20, 2020)




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## Snautzer01 (May 9, 2020)

WW2 US/American Pictures/Photos - New Zealand Brewster Buffalo Aircraft/Plane | eBay

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## Wurger (May 9, 2020)




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## Snautzer01 (Jun 10, 2020)

2 WK Foto Finnland Flugzeug | eBay


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## Wayne Little (Jun 10, 2020)

Nice..!


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## vikingBerserker (Jun 10, 2020)

I agree!


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## Wurger (Jun 10, 2020)




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## Snautzer01 (Jun 23, 2020)

aircraft photo Brewster Buffalo - US Air Navy | eBay


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## Capt. Vick (Jun 23, 2020)

What is that? Belgian, British?


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## buffnut453 (Jun 23, 2020)

Capt. Vick said:


> What is that? Belgian, British?



Belgian. It has the cuffed propeller that was used on the F2A-2. British Buffalos had an uncuffed propeller.

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## Peter Gunn (Jun 23, 2020)

The cuffed prop looks better IMHO.


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## johnbr (Jun 28, 2020)

643 Test 126 - XF2A-2 Brewster Guns - NasaCRgis 
nasa xf2a Brewster gun test

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## johnbr (Jun 28, 2020)



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## Wurger (Jun 28, 2020)




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## SaparotRob (Jun 28, 2020)

Great pictures!

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## Capt. Vick (Jun 28, 2020)

Now find the pressurized Buffalo

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## Snautzer01 (Aug 28, 2020)

Snautzer01 said:


> aircraft photo Brewster Buffalo - US Air Navy | eBay
> 
> View attachment 585890


2.WK Foto Flugzeug Brewster Buffalo der Belgien 1940 Top !!! | eBay

NX568

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## Wurger (Aug 28, 2020)




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## MIflyer (Aug 28, 2020)

I believe this shot has been "colorized."

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## MIflyer (Aug 28, 2020)

I have a full size print of this. Squadron was selling them for a few bucks a while back.

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## Wurger (Aug 28, 2020)




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## vikingBerserker (Aug 28, 2020)

Dang, sorry I missed that. Cool pic!


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## MIflyer (Aug 28, 2020)

At only $2.00 or so each I should have bought more than one print. It is the cover painting for the Buffalo in Action book and I think one outfit used it as the box top art for a model kit. Assuming it is accurate that artwork shows the only combat the F2A was in with US pilots, and probably its only victory for the US. As we discussed a while back, the USAAF flew ex-Dutch Buffalo aircraft in Australia, but only as unarmed trainers.


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## Capt. Vick (Aug 28, 2020)

I had the worst interview of my life at Dayton T. Brown, the company formed by the designer of the Buffalo and I remember there being a large Brewster Buffalo painting in the lobby.


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## Greg Boeser (Aug 28, 2020)

VMF-221 encountered a Japanese flying boat reconnoitering Midway on March 10, 1942, shooting it down.

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## MIflyer (Aug 29, 2020)

Greg Boeser said:


> VMF-221 encountered a Japanese flying boat reconnoitering Midway on March 10, 1942, shooting it down.



One of the little known facts about Midway was that there were IJN aircraft flying out of Wake Island, including Betty bombers, that were in the battle, making life hell for the PBY crews.

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## SaparotRob (Aug 29, 2020)

Capt. Vick said:


> I had the worst interview of my life at Dayton T. Brown, the company formed by the designer of the Buffalo and I remember there being a large Brewster Buffalo painting in the lobby.


About 40 years ago I made a sales call at a company in Pennsylvania (I think). There was a big mural of a Buffalo on the wall.


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## Mad Dog (Aug 29, 2020)

Greg Boeser said:


> Here is an aircraft that demonstrates that its not the aircraft, but the pilot flying the aircraft. Highly trained and aggressive Finnish Air Force pilots racked up enormous kill claims flying against poorly trained Soviet pilots from 41-43, and was the most successful aircraft in the Finnish Air Force until the arrival of Bf 109s in mid '43.
> In American and Commonwealth hands, poorly trained pilots hampered by bad leadership were completely outclassed by highly trained and aggressive Japanese pilots flying aircraft that were in many ways inferior to the Buffalo.


The Finnish Buffalos flew against very poorly trained and poorly led Soviet pilots in flying coffins at low levels where the Buffalo performed best. As soon as the Soviets got decent fighters and some training, the Finns had to switch to Bf109Gs to avoid being massacred. 
The Commonwealth and American pilots had to try intercepting Japanese bombers and fighters at medium- and high-altitudes, where they had to use one hand to pump fuel continuously, otherwise the engine stopped! In no way at all did the Buffalo have any performance advantage over any Japanese opponent at the altitudes the Allies fought with Buffalos, not even the Nakajima Ki-27, and definitely not compared to their most common opponents, the Ki-43 and the Zero. The only good tactic the RAF Buffalo pilots had was to try and get a height advantage of 3000-odd feet and make a diving attack out of the sun, but because the Buffalo climbed so badly and the RAF had no early warning, the situation of diving on the Japanese rarely presented itself. By comparison, the Finns flew the majority of their combats below 10,000ft against fighters the Buffalo had a 30-50mph advantage over. Your comparison is simply ill-informed.


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## SaparotRob (Aug 29, 2020)

Did an American Buffalo actually down a Zero?


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## fubar57 (Aug 29, 2020)

"Brewster F2A Buffalo Aces of World War 2" mentions 2Lt. Charles M. Kunz, USMC with 2 kills. I'll read through it and see if I can find the types shot down


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## fubar57 (Aug 29, 2020)

The two shoot downs were Type 99 D3A Vals

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## Juha3 (Aug 29, 2020)

Mad Dog said:


> The Finnish Buffalos flew against very poorly trained and poorly led Soviet pilots in flying coffins at low levels where the Buffalo performed best. As soon as the Soviets got decent fighters and some training, the Finns had to switch to Bf109Gs to avoid being massacred.
> The Commonwealth and American pilots had to try intercepting Japanese bombers and fighters at medium- and high-altitudes, where they had to use one hand to pump fuel continuously, otherwise the engine stopped! In no way at all did the Buffalo have any performance advantage over any Japanese opponent at the altitudes the Allies fought with Buffalos, not even the Nakajima Ki-27, and definitely not compared to their most common opponents, the Ki-43 and the Zero. The only good tactic the RAF Buffalo pilots had was to try and get a height advantage of 3000-odd feet and make a diving attack out of the sun, but because the Buffalo climbed so badly and the RAF had no early warning, the situation of diving on the Japanese rarely presented itself. By comparison, the Finns flew the majority of their combats below 10,000ft against fighters the Buffalo had a 30-50mph advantage over. Your comparison is simply ill-informed.



Finns did not think that Soviet pilots of e.g. 7 IAP (Fighter Regiment) or 153 IAP were poorly trained. I-153 was 40 km/h slower than Brewster, but the max. speeds of I-16s were 36 km/h slower (Tip 10) or 5 km/h faster (Tip 24) than that of Brewster, but at lower altitudes Tip 24's superiority in the level speed was bigger, it was some 20 km/h faster. MiG-3s was significantly faster, some 60 km/h at sea level, 120 km/h faster at the FTH of Brewster (4750 m), after that clearly more so, being some 195 km/h faster at 8000 m.
Our most famous fighter sqn, HLeLv 24 used Brewsters up to spring 1944, but at least from late 1943 onwards had been in trouble with newest Soviet fighters, especially with La-5s. But when it got Bf 109Gs, it transferred its surviving Brewsters, very weary by then, to another fighter sqn, HLeLv 26, which had used Fiat G.50s previously. Our first unit to get Bf 109Gs had been HLeLv 34, which was formed especially to be the first 109 unit of the FiAF in spring 1943.

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## PFVA63 (Aug 29, 2020)

Hi,
Hopefully not getting too far off track but as noted by others it appears that the Finnish Airforce continued to use their B239s straight through to the end of the Continuation War with the Soviet Union (25 June 1941 – 19 September 1944 (3 years, 2 months, 3 weeks and 4 days)) [See Wikipedia].

As for the Bf109s, it is my understanding that they were not purchased until early 1943, with the first batch of 14 being delivered on March 14th of that year, and another 16 delivered on May 10th with that types first successful combat in the Finnish Airforce occurring on March 24th [see Link].

The link above notes some combined operations with both Finnish B239s and Bf109s such as an event on 21 May that appears to have included 11 Finnish Bf109s, 12 German flown Bf109s and 16 B239s. As such it does not appear that the Bf109 "replaced" the B239 in Finnish service but rather started to become their top fighter with others, including the B239, continuing to support them.

Specifically the link above also notes that during the Soviet's Summer offensive of 1944:

"During the Soviet offensive, which lasted 38 days, The Finnish Bf-109s and B-239s claimed 425 Soviet aircraft destroyed and another 78 damaged, while the Fw-190s of II/JG 54 led by Major Erich Rudorffer scored a further 126 victories."

Regards
Pat

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## Greg Boeser (Aug 29, 2020)

Mad Dog said:


> The Finnish Buffalos flew against very poorly trained and poorly led Soviet pilots in flying coffins at low levels where the Buffalo performed best. As soon as the Soviets got decent fighters and some training, the Finns had to switch to Bf109Gs to avoid being massacred.
> The Commonwealth and American pilots had to try intercepting Japanese bombers and fighters at medium- and high-altitudes, where they had to use one hand to pump fuel continuously, otherwise the engine stopped! In no way at all did the Buffalo have any performance advantage over any Japanese opponent at the altitudes the Allies fought with Buffalos, not even the Nakajima Ki-27, and definitely not compared to their most common opponents, the Ki-43 and the Zero. The only good tactic the RAF Buffalo pilots had was to try and get a height advantage of 3000-odd feet and make a diving attack out of the sun, but because the Buffalo climbed so badly and the RAF had no early warning, the situation of diving on the Japanese rarely presented itself. By comparison, the Finns flew the majority of their combats below 10,000ft against fighters the Buffalo had a 30-50mph advantage over. Your comparison is simply ill-informed.


You bring up a good point of the disadvantages faced by the Allied pilots flying Brewsters in the early Pacific War. The RAF machines were not well maintained, suffering all sorts of mechanical issues, from engine failure to gun failures. This I lay at the feet of the leadership. SEA was for the British a colonial backwater and suffered from all manner of shortages. This was made worse by the sad fact that it became the dumping ground for officers that were not up to snuff for the "real" war in Europe. When the Japanese attacked they simply could not shake off their peacetime mentality and respond effectively. Here I am talking about the high command as the squadrons were more than willing to fight, often being held back by staff officers who lacked initiative. This resulted in opportunities missed and aircraft lost on the ground due to failure to react in a timely fashion. Much of air fighting was at low to medium altitude. The lack of early warning certainly was a significant disadvantage for the RAF. But again, this is not the fault of the machine, but of the circumstances of its employment.
The most common fighter type encountered by RAF Buffalos was the Ki-27. Only two sentai of Japanese Army AF were equipped with Ki-43. Yes, the Zero was a formidable foe, better top speed, better acceleration, more maneuverable, and flown by the best pilots in the Pacific in 1941-1942. The RAF and Commonwealth pilots as well as the US Marine pilots simply lacked the training and experience in comparison.

The USMC F2As only encountered Japanese aircraft on two occasions. 10 March, 1942, when they successfully intercepted an IJN flying boat off of Midway at 7000 ft and shot it down.
On June 4, 1942 they intercepted the first wave of incoming aircraft of the Japanese Kido Butai, 36 level and dive bombers escorted by 36 Zeroes, which was flying at 11,000 ft. Their decision to ignore the escort and attack the bombers directly left them vulnerable to the Zeroes. The Marines at Midway benefitted from RADAR direction, allowing them to attack with a significant height advantage, but on 4 June they could not overcome the disadvantage of being outnumbered by the faster and heavily armed Zeroes.

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## Greg Boeser (Aug 29, 2020)

PFVA63, 
The Bf-109 didn't replace so much as supercede the B-239 as the premier Finnish fighter type.


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## Juha3 (Aug 29, 2020)

PFVA63 said:


> Hi,
> Hopefully not getting too far off track but as noted by others it appears that the Finnish Airforce continued to use their B239s straight through to the end of the Continuation War with the Soviet Union (25 June 1941 – 19 September 1944 (3 years, 2 months, 3 weeks and 4 days)) [See Wikipedia].
> 
> As for the Bf109s, it is my understanding that they were not purchased until early 1943, with the first batch of 14 being delivered on March 14th of that year, and another 16 delivered on May 10th with that types first successful combat in the Finnish Airforce occurring on March 24th [see Link].
> ...



Some small corrections, the Continuation War ended on 4 Sept 44
the first batch of 109Gs were 16 factory-new 109G-2s, the second 14 were second-hand but completely overhauled 109G-2s, some had been so badly damaged that they were in practice rebuilt planes. Later we got replacement G-2s for the lost ones via Luftpark Pori and still later more from Germany which were mostly sub-type G-6s for replacement of losses and re-equiptment for new units. Altogether we got 159 109Gs.

Finns used survived B239s also against Germans during the early part of the Lapland War in late 1944

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## Dana Bell (Aug 30, 2020)

The mixed USMC Buffalo/Wildcat force at Midway had the advantages of radar. When the approaching Japanese force was detected on radar, the marines had time to get to 14,000 feet, well above it. The Japanese didn't expect to be detected and stationed their A6Ms below the strike force - they expected this would allow them to intercept the Americans as Midway's defensive fighters tried to climb. Marine survivors thought their first "free pass" at the Japanese bombers "...was quite good." As they attempted a second pass at the bombers the Zeros were among them - the rest of the story is pretty well documented.

(From BuAer interview of LtCol Ira L. Kimes, USMC -- 31 Aug 1942. Original in US National Archives)

Cheers,



Dana

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## buffnut453 (Aug 30, 2020)

Mad Dog said:


> In no way at all did the Buffalo have any performance advantage over any Japanese opponent at the altitudes the Allies fought with Buffalos, not even the Nakajima Ki-27, and definitely not compared to their most common opponents, the Ki-43 and the Zero.



Contemporary reporting would suggest otherwise. The combat reports for 67 Sqn's engagements over Rangoon on 23 and 25 Dec 1941 have survived. On the former date, the Sqn was only faced with Ki-27s while on Christmas Day they faced a mix of Ki-43s and Ki-27s. The combat reports indicate the British and New Zealand pilots all perceived that the Buffalo had a speed performance advantage compared to both the Ki-27 and the Ki-43. 




Mad Dog said:


> The only good tactic the RAF Buffalo pilots had was to try and get a height advantage of 3000-odd feet and make a diving attack out of the sun, but because the Buffalo climbed so badly and the RAF had no early warning, the situation of diving on the Japanese rarely presented itself.



The lack of early warning was the primary problem. Even if the RAF had operated Spitfires in Singapore, they would still have struggled to intercept the Japanese formations. The arrival of Hurricanes in Singapore was hoped to provide a critical performance improvement compared to the Buffalo but it just didn't happen because the Hurricanes, even though faster and better-climbing than the Buffalo, still couldn't reach the Japanese bombers in time.

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## buffnut453 (Aug 30, 2020)

Dana Bell said:


> The mixed USMC Buffalo/Wildcat force at Midway had the advantages of radar. When the approaching Japanese force was detected on radar, the marines had time to get to 14,000 feet, well above it. The Japanese didn't expect to be detected and stationed their A6Ms below the strike force - they expected this would allow them to intercept the Americans as Midway's defensive fighters tried to climb. Marine survivors thought their first "free pass" at the Japanese bombers "...was quite good." As they attempted a second pass at the bombers the Zeros were among them - the rest of the story is pretty well documented.
> 
> (From BuAer interview of LtCol Ira L. Kimes, USMC -- 31 Aug 1942. Original in US National Archives)
> 
> ...



Hi Dana,

It didn't help that VMF-221 was still using Divisional tactics that had been superseded by the battle pair in much of the USN. Also, despite the early warning advantage that radar afforded, the VMF-221 was committed in a rather piecemeal fashion (in part due to the Divisional formations), allowing the escorting Zeros to defeat the defending fighters in detail. 

Cheers,
Mark

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## buffnut453 (Aug 30, 2020)

Greg Boeser said:


> You bring up a good point of the disadvantages faced by the Allied pilots flying Brewsters in the early Pacific War. The RAF machines were not well maintained, suffering all sorts of mechanical issues, from engine failure to gun failures. This I lay at the feet of the leadership. SEA was for the British a colonial backwater and suffered from all manner of shortages. This was made worse by the sad fact that it became the dumping ground for officers that were not up to snuff for the "real" war in Europe. When the Japanese attacked they simply could not shake off their peacetime mentality and respond effectively. Here I am talking about the high command as the squadrons were more than willing to fight, often being held back by staff officers who lacked initiative. This resulted in opportunities missed and aircraft lost on the ground due to failure to react in a timely fashion. Much of air fighting was at low to medium altitude. The lack of early warning certainly was a significant disadvantage for the RAF. But again, this is not the fault of the machine, but of the circumstances of its employment.



Agree entirely, although it should be borne in mind that very few RAF personnel in the Far East had any operational experience, to include the groundcrews. Of the 5 Buffalo squadrons, 67 and 243 were formed in Singapore with just a small cadre of combat-experienced pilots (typically no more than 2-3 per squadron). No.21 Sqn had been in Singapore for some time flying Wirraways but, again, no operational experience. Nos. 453 and 488 Sqns were Article XV units formed in Australia and New Zealand respectively, with mostly brand new pilots and locally-grown groundcrew. The challenges of operating under combat conditions should not be underestimated, particularly given the rudimentary nature of some of the forward airfields in northern Malaya. I would agree entirely, though, that AHQFE demonstrated a marked a lack of imagination and failed to mandate an adequate, operationally-relevant training syllabus in the period Apr-Nov 1941.




Greg Boeser said:


> The most common fighter type encountered by RAF Buffalos was the Ki-27. Only two sentai of Japanese Army AF were equipped with Ki-43. Yes, the Zero was a formidable foe, better top speed, better acceleration, more maneuverable, and flown by the best pilots in the Pacific in 1941-1942. The RAF and Commonwealth pilots as well as the US Marine pilots simply lacked the training and experience in comparison.



The Ki-43 was the principal fighter used during the Japanese offensive down Malaya. It was employed in "aerial extermination action" which we'd refer to in modern parlance as offensive counter-air (source: Yokoyama, Hisayuki (2004), ‘Air Operational Leadership on the Southern Front’ in Bond, Brian and Tachikawa, Kyoichi eds., _British and Japanese Military Leadership in the Far Eastern War 1941-1945_ (London and New York: Frank Cass)). The IJAAF tried to use the Ki-27s as escorts in Burma on 23 Dec 41 and the results were so bad that the 50th Sentai was immediately re-tasked to support the Burma front. For the most part, Ki-27s were primarily used to defend Japanese-occupied airfields. The Ki-43's role was to secure air superiority and it did the job very well, although the British didn't comprehend how badly the IJAAF was suffering from lack of spares and replacement airframes. 

"Only two sentai" of Ki-43s was still a force of 59 fighters. During the fighting for Malaya, the only Buffalo units were 21 Sqn and 453 Sqn which seldom could field a total of 12 operational aircraft (21 Sqn had abandoned 7 damaged airframes at Sungei Patani and 453 Sqn's hoped-for reinforcement resulted in the loss of 3 aircraft because the pilots lost their way and crash-landed, wrecking the aircraft. Three further Buffalos were lost trying to take off in the middle of a Japanese air attack on 13 Dec, again due to lack of early warning). Thus, even if we only count the 64th Sentai as operational over Malaya, we still have some 30 Ki-43s going up against less than 12 Buffalos during the majority of the campaign. 

At the point of engagement, the Buffalo was almost always seriously outnumbered and, due to lack of warning, at a tactical disadvantage. I also agree entirely that the Japanese fighter pilots, both IJAAF and IJN, were among the best fighter pilots, with training heavily influenced by operational lessons learned over China. The A6M was arguably the best fighter in the world in late-1941 and the Ki-43 wasn't too far behind it, not least because both were designed to operate with drop tanks, something that the Allies took years to implement on their fighters. Outnumbered and flown by inexperienced pilots against some of the best pilots and opposition fighters in the world, it's no wonder that the Buffalo performed poorly.

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## PFVA63 (Aug 30, 2020)

Greg Boeser said:


> PFVA63,
> The Bf-109 didn't replace so much as supercede the B-239 as the premier Finnish fighter type.



Hi,
Yes, that's more or less the point I was trying to make in the 3rd paragraph of my previous post where I noted that in March 1944;



PFVA63 said:


> "it does not appear that the Bf109 "replaced" the B239 in Finnish service but rather started to become their top fighter with others, including the B239, continuing to support them."
> ...



Specifically if you look at information regarding the Bf109 and B239 in Finnish service (including the link that I provided) you begin to see that although the Finns eventually operated 160 some odd Bf109s overall during the war, they definitely weren't available in large numbers initially and at times due to attrition and maintenance issues at times as few as 13 may have been operational in late 1944.

Additionally, you can see that although the Bf-109s were assigned to squadrons that were considered to be the top Finnish squadrons at the time you can see that the B239s were not withdrawn from service but rather transferred to other squadrons where they continued to operate through the Continuation War and into the Lappland War (as Juha has noted).

As such I'm not sure that comments like "The Finnish Buffalos flew against very poorly trained and poorly led Soviet pilots in flying coffins at low levels where the Buffalo performed best. As soon as the Soviets got decent fighters and some training, the Finns had to switch to Bf109Gs to avoid being massacred" are fully accurate.

The arrival of higher performance fighters like the Bf-109 was definitely needed and played a big part in helping Finland continue the ongoing war, but that does not mean that the B239s were then cast aside as being useless in the continuing defense of the country, much like probably in most any country where an air force begins to transition to newer airframes from older ones.

Pat

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## Snautzer01 (Sep 2, 2020)

2.WK Foto Flugzeug Buffalo mit Finland Wappen Top !!! | eBay


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## Wurger (Sep 2, 2020)




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## Gnomey (Sep 4, 2020)

Nice shots!


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## Snautzer01 (Sep 14, 2020)

S315 Finnisches Brewster Buffalo Jagdflugzeug Abschuss Bilanz USA Beute airplane | eBay


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## Wurger (Sep 14, 2020)




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## vikingBerserker (Sep 14, 2020)

That's an awesome pic!


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## Snautzer01 (Dec 16, 2020)

NEW 6 X 4 PHOTOGRAPH WW2 BREWSTER F2A BUFFALO 1 | eBay

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## Wurger (Dec 16, 2020)




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## fubar57 (Dec 16, 2020)

#13 was an aircraft Jimmy Thatch nosed over, he of the "Thatch Weave". Kind of a well known photo plastered all over the webs

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## Gnomey (Dec 18, 2020)

Good shots!


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## Snautzer01 (Mar 9, 2021)

WW2 Plane Photos | eBay

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## fubar57 (Mar 9, 2021)

See....this guy was thinking of future model builders and provided exact colours needed, "....dirty brown color..."

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## Wurger (Mar 9, 2021)

The dirty brown colour .... just something for the model I'm building.


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## fubar57 (Mar 9, 2021)

The little known RLM 61.¾

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## Wurger (Mar 9, 2021)

Actually the ¾ is the amount of mud in inches added to get the correct tinge

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## Crimea_River (Mar 9, 2021)

Ah, but which dirt?


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## Snautzer01 (Jul 8, 2021)

WW2 USN Brewster F2A Fighter Plane Official Photo | eBay


Condition is as seen in photos. One small puncture that is hardly noticeable in our opinion could also be repaired. Really great officially stamped image. Very nice addition to any collection. Don't miss out on this great piece.



www.ebay.com










Brewster Buffalo: in Dutch service







www.warbirdforum.com




The B-339D used by the KNIL was the same as the F2A-3 used by the US navy. Even in April 1942 Buffaloes were made in America with the orange triangles, but it was too late to deliver them. Out of 92 ordered planes likely only 50 had been delivered. At the start of the war there were 30 planes operational and short after that another 20 arrived in Dutch east Indies. These last were B-439's, but what is remarkable, the registration numbers existed out of four digits, like B-3113, B-3119, B-3122 etc. They did not fit in the normal registration-system of the KNIL. It is possible that the true strength of the KNIL had to be camouflaged by these high numbers.

More Dutch Buffalos Brewster Buffalo in Dutch Service - Destination's Journey
NX3418 B-3119

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## Wurger (Jul 8, 2021)




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## buffnut453 (Jul 8, 2021)

Snautzer01 said:


> WW2 USN Brewster F2A Fighter Plane Official Photo | eBay
> 
> 
> Condition is as seen in photos. One small puncture that is hardly noticeable in our opinion could also be repaired. Really great officially stamped image. Very nice addition to any collection. Don't miss out on this great piece.
> ...



Minor nit-noid but the B339D was equivalent to the F2A-2 not the F2A-3. The B439 had the longer nose of the F2A-3 but was otherwise similar to F2A-2.

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## R Leonard (Jul 8, 2021)

Here is a nice little shot. Comes from a set of prints produced by the Curtiss-Wright Propeller Division during the war years. 







Nice set if you can get your hands on it . . . obviously I have . . . think I'll trot over to the F5F thread and post the shot from this set over there..

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## Gnomey (Jul 20, 2021)




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## Snautzer01 (Aug 4, 2021)

WWII US Brewster Buffalo Grumman Wildcat Vought Kingfisher 1942 MAGAZINE PHOTO | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for WWII US Brewster Buffalo Grumman Wildcat Vought Kingfisher 1942 MAGAZINE PHOTO at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com

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## Wurger (Aug 4, 2021)




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## SaparotRob (Aug 4, 2021)

Snautzer01 said:


> WWII US Brewster Buffalo Grumman Wildcat Vought Kingfisher 1942 MAGAZINE PHOTO | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for WWII US Brewster Buffalo Grumman Wildcat Vought Kingfisher 1942 MAGAZINE PHOTO at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> ...


I enjoyed reading that little caption under the photo.


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## Capt. Vick (Aug 4, 2021)

Popular you say. 🤔

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## special ed (Aug 4, 2021)

With the Japanese.

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## vikingBerserker (Aug 4, 2021)

She was a portly one that's for sure.

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## Snautzer01 (Aug 4, 2021)

Capt. Vick said:


> Popular you say. 🤔


Yes before shots fired in anger. Like the pretty girl that leads you on, but tells you when the party is over she has a vd. Then things change a bit.

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## Capt. Vick (Aug 4, 2021)

Just a bit

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## jimmaas (Nov 1, 2021)

Snautzer01 said:


> what is remarkable, the registration numbers existed out of four digits, like B-3113, B-3119, B-3122 etc. They did not fit in the normal registration-system of the KNIL. It is possible that the true strength of the KNIL had to be camouflaged by these high numbers.


The registration numbers were correct. The ML-KNIL registration system had categories - the one for fighters was '3' - and the category number was preceded by a letter indicating the manufacturer. So the base code for Brewster Model 339 fighters was 'B3'. Following this was an individual aircraft number, within that type class. The Brewster 339's started with the number '95' (other fighters real or planned took up previous numbers) so the first example got coded 'B395'. The went on to 'B399' and then the next number was 'B3100' and so on. However, naturally, somebody at Brewster screwed up and painted on 'B400'. The use of '4' as a type number was supposed to be for recon types like the Fokker C.V. This mistake continued until about 'B422' when the purchasing authority caught it and corrected it to 'B3122', as well as on preceding mistakes, some of which had made it to the East Indies. You can spot these corrections in photos with a sort of smudged paint area under the registration number. The later Model 339-23's (I don't know where the Model 439 number comes from, but not from Brewster documents) has registration numbers with a hyphen, as 'B3-186', which made the system clearer.

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## Snautzer01 (Feb 7, 2022)

Photograph British Buffalo Fighter and US Dive Bomber | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Photograph British Buffalo Fighter and US Dive Bomber at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com





RAF AS430

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## Wurger (Feb 7, 2022)




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## Gnomey (Feb 8, 2022)

Nice shots!


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## fubar57 (Feb 9, 2022)

I've never seen that one before


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## GTX (Feb 10, 2022)

Naval Aircraft Factory SBN - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org

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## Snautzer01 (Apr 7, 2022)

Negative RO-B RO-E ,

I found RO-B is 67 SQN W8243 Mingaladon airbase near Rangoon

seller Bought from estate. Belonged to ace Chuck Older. Complete roll in canister. Most likely taken shortly after arrival in Burma





















ORIGINAL RARE WWII FLYING TIGERS AVG FILM NEGATIVE ROLL FROM ACE - AIRCRAFT ETC | eBay


Bought from estate. Belonged to ace Chuck O lder. Complete roll in canister. Excellent condition. Most likely taken shortly after arrival in Burma.



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## Wurger (Apr 7, 2022)




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## buffnut453 (Apr 7, 2022)

Snautzer01 said:


> Negative RO-B RO-E ,
> 
> I found RO-B is 67 SQN W8243 Mingaladon airbase near Rangoon
> 
> ...



Wow! Thanks for sharing those pics. I hadn't seen the image of RD-E before. I've been tracking the individual airframe histories for over 20 years now, to include efforts to tie squadron code letters to serial numbers. I'm working from memory but I'm pretty certain this is the first time I've seen a clear photo of RD-E clearly which appears to show the serial number W8250. Looks like another tie-up is completed.

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## Gnomey (Apr 17, 2022)

Good shots!


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## Snautzer01 (May 1, 2022)

Snautzer01 said:


> Photograph British Buffalo Fighter and US Dive Bomber | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Photograph British Buffalo Fighter and US Dive Bomber at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> ...


Another sighting of AS430














Collection of 5 Aircraft Valentines Postcards - Messerschmitt, Brewster Buffalo+ | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Collection of 5 Aircraft Valentines Postcards - Messerschmitt, Brewster Buffalo+ at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



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## Wurger (May 2, 2022)




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## Snautzer01 (Jun 13, 2022)

aircraft recognition card RAF/FAA WW2 Valentines/Aeroplane














Brewster Buffalo aircraft recognition card RAF/FAA WW2 Valentines/Aeroplane | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Brewster Buffalo aircraft recognition card RAF/FAA WW2 Valentines/Aeroplane at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



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## Wurger (Jun 13, 2022)




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## Snautzer01 (Jun 30, 2022)

Duke of Kent.














Photo - Buffalo Brewster / Duke of Kent


Large format b&w photograph, approximately 30 x 25.5cm. Shows high ranking officers and Prince George, the Duke Of Kent inspecting a Buffalo Brewster. The Duke, a keen pilot, was granted a commission in the Royal Air Force in 1937 as a group captain, was also made the Honorary Air Commodore of...




www.historicflyingclothing.com

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## Wurger (Jun 30, 2022)




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## nuuumannn (Jul 1, 2022)

Snautzer01 said:


> Another sighting of AS430



AS430 was the third Buffalo to arrive in the UK for testing with the A&AEE, the first being from Belgian supply, AS412 suffered engine failure, AS425 was found to have structural damage and so AS430 arrived in August 1940 before it collided with a Handley Page Hampden during an air to air photo sortie in October 1940. The pilot bailed out.

A performance report dated July 1941 came from information gleaned from all three aircraft, which stated that performance was not outstanding, although take-off run with flap was only 215 yds. Carbon monoxide levels in the cockpit were dangerously high and the fitting of fishtail exhausts didn't help, but improved flame dampening. It was easy to load the aircraft to an aft CG position, so recommendations were made for in service to prevent the CG from creeping too far aft through incorrect loading. Gunnery trials information appears to be scant, but firing appeared to be satisfactory, although rearming the wing guns was considered awkward and firing the fuselage guns at low altitude (not at high altitude?) caused oil to flow onto the windscreen.

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## Snautzer01 (Nov 2, 2022)

desert
























COLLECTION / JOB LOT OF WW2 RAF ROYAL AIR FORCE & OTHER PHOTOGRAPHS & POSTCARDS | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for COLLECTION / JOB LOT OF WW2 RAF ROYAL AIR FORCE & OTHER PHOTOGRAPHS & POSTCARDS at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



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## Wurger (Nov 2, 2022)




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