# Bombers to bomb NYC???



## krieghund (Dec 20, 2008)

I found this during my readings and was wondering if anyone could shead any light on this article?

It is from the Washington Post dated June 29, 1945.

Which base would this be and what type of aircraft were there and where were they taken to and examined?


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## evangilder (Dec 20, 2008)

It would have been a one way trip, from what I understand. There were a lot of wonder weapons that were on paper, or in progress when the war ended. It was the last desperate moves to try and delay the inevitable. 

I honestly don't think it would have changed much if they had even succeeded in bombing New York. Fighters and anti-aircraft would be put in the area and any war industries would be moved out of range. 

The ability to bomb New York would have not been a way to turn defeat into victory.


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## Burmese Bandit (Dec 20, 2008)

Unless they had the A-bomb. But they didn't.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 20, 2008)

The idea and plans were in place. Actually several plans were in place. If it would have been possible is up for debate though.

A good book to read on the topic is:

*LUFTWAFFE OVER AMERICA - The Secret Plans to Bomb the United States in World War II* by Manfred Griehl

ISBN: 1-85367-608-X


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## krieghund (Dec 20, 2008)

Yes I have that one plus *Target: America-Hitler's plans to attack the United States *plus *Messerschmitt Me 264 Amerika bomber *and others.

Still what base is the one mentioned and what are the aircraft?


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## Eurofighter (Dec 20, 2008)

While the Germans tried to bomb New York city, the Japanese on the other hand tried to bomb Oregon and California not with long range bombers but with so type of balloons packed with explosives. I read this some time ago and I do not have any further details but of one thing I'm sure, we were really lucky by having two vast oceans protecting us.


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## syscom3 (Dec 20, 2008)

I think we had an extensive discussion about the capabilities of the long range German bombers in one of the thread for "Best Bomber of WW2".


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## kool kitty89 (Dec 20, 2008)

Something Delcyros has brought up on the forum several times, most recently here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/av...tacks-if-ussr-had-been-defeated-14427-12.html

The most dangerous weapon the Germans had available (and possibly the most dangeous WMD available in quantity with any country in WWII) would be their stocks of refined botulinum toxin.

We had a similar discussion going here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/atomic-tipped-v1-v2-4623-2.html

Another ting brought up in this thread: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/av...tacks-if-ussr-had-been-defeated-14427-12.html was the relative effectiveness of the early Nuclear weapons available durring the war. (they were similart in yeild to tactical Nukes by modern or even mid-1950's standards) They woeked well aganst Japanese cities for largely the same reason as incendiary bombs. (light wooden structures)
Except very near to ground zero, any stone/brick structures would be relatively unharmed. Of course there's the fallout t wory about, but the level of destruction would be significantly less than with Japan. 


But on the topic of the "amerika bomber" this thread had some discussion on it: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/alternate-bomb-transporters-4636.html
And especially this one: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/wwii-misteries-what-happened-ju390-2579.html


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## TheMustangRider (Dec 22, 2008)

The whole idea of bombing America from Europe seems like a last desperate move for Nazi Germany but given the fact that Germany had very innovative designs; who knows what would had happen if the war would had continue for at least two more years.


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## Amsel (Dec 22, 2008)

No fuel, no ammo. The war was over because of it.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Dec 26, 2008)

Amerika Bomber in imagined horror of action


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 26, 2008)

It probably would not have looked much like that. They would not have been able to carry that many bombs and still have the range. Besides by that point the defensive fighters would have probably already been all over them.


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## Airframes (Dec 27, 2008)

I vaguely recall reading years ago, that the Norwegian airfield was Gardermoen. Perhaps JU88A1 (Guttorm), our Norwegian friend, can shed some light on this, as he is based there!


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## ScOoTeR1992 (Dec 28, 2008)

uhm correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they design the Arado Ar 234 to bomb the New York and other cities, I've read somewhere and trying to locate that place now where it said that but I have read it


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 28, 2008)

ScOoTeR1992 said:


> uhm correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they design the Arado Ar 234 to bomb the New York and other cities, I've read somewhere and trying to locate that place now where it said that but I have read it



Okay, I will correct you... 

Ask yourself how the Ar 234 (first jet powered bomber) was going to bomb New York with a range of 1,100 km (684 miles)? It did bomb other cities though, since you said it was designed to bomb New York and *other cities*.



Sorry I am just having a little fun with you. Seriously though, the Ar 234 was not designed to bomb the United States, its range was no where even close.


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## ScOoTeR1992 (Dec 28, 2008)

lol you dont have to be sorry DerAdler, guess I'm the one to apologize for stupid answer...but I was watching a show on History channel and it described some german bomber not the Amerika bomber that was going to get to New York


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 28, 2008)

ScOoTeR1992 said:


> lol you dont have to be sorry DerAdler, guess I'm the one to apologize for stupid answer...but I was watching a show on History channel and it described some german bomber not the Amerika bomber that was going to get to New York



Aircraft that were thought of for the job were:

Junkers Ju 390
Focke Wulf Fw 200
Blomm Voss Bv 222
Blomm Voss Bv 238
Messerschmitt Me 264

Out of these, I think the only realistic one would have been the Ju 390 or the Messerschmitt Me 264.


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## comiso90 (Dec 28, 2008)

Early in the war before the Allies owned the Atlantic, they could have used seaplanes that rendezvoused with U-Boat tankers for re-fueling...

The weather would have been tricky.. perhaps they could have tried a longer, southern route to avoid the North Atlantic.



Certainly the bomb payload would have tiny but can you imagine the resources that would have been dedicated to ensure that it wouldnt happen again? I bet Carriers earmarked for the Pacific would have been re-deployed to the Atlantic.

.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 28, 2008)

comiso90 said:


> Early in the war before the Allies owned the Atlantic, they could have used seaplanes that rendezvoused with U-Boat tankers for re-fueling...
> 
> The weather would have been tricky.. perhaps they could have tried a longer, southern route to avoid the North Atlantic.
> 
> ...



That was discussed in the book I mentioned above.


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## comiso90 (Dec 28, 2008)

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:


> That was discussed in the book I mentioned above.



They stole the idea from me!

8) 


Did they mention a Northern Route or a longer Southern Route? I think it would have made more sense to Bomb Miami then NYC... the ultimate result would be the same but the risks would have been fewer.

.
.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Dec 29, 2008)

comiso90 said:


> They stole the idea from me!
> 
> 8)
> 
> ...



I do not remember, I will have to go back and take a look at it.


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## Soundbreaker Welch? (Dec 30, 2008)

> Besides by that point the defensive fighters would have probably already been all over them.



I how top notch the fighters would have been to guard New York, seeing as everybody wasn't expecting an attack there. Would there have been P-51's
or just P-40's to shoot down the Amerika bomber?



Sadly, the US had F-16's nearby when the Terrorists attacked on 911, and we sure couldn't do much to stop them.


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## MAV_406 (Dec 30, 2008)

there was a show on T.V the other night about the Germans trying to bomb America. sadly i missed it and only saw a few seconds. interesting topic though.


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## fly boy (Jan 3, 2009)

think of a german style peacekeeper bomber minus the A-bomb


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## Kiwikid (Jan 10, 2009)

I interpret the article refers to either the He-177 or perhaps the French built He-277 with conventional engine layout. I doubt that many H-277 were ever completed, but may be wrong on that.

This airport was a top secret SS facility with 2000 metre runways, set behind a forest.

The New York mission was proposed for FW200 Condors of II/KG40 in 1942. The plan was for them to ditch afterwards. An interesting bunch of U-boats in port at Horten near Oslo were given top secret verbal orders on 30-31 March 1945. This group of six U-boats were Gruppe Seewolf. The Americans were very distressed by Gruppe seewulf and some of the U-boat skippers were actually interrogated about a raid on New York. 

The key phrase here is that they were held in reserve for an attack on New York. On the night of 27 April the Nazis were going door to door in Berlin telling trapped residents to hold out because the A-bomb would be used next morning. 

On the same date Hitler learned of betrayal by Himmler and issued orders for the arrest of Himmler, Feiglein and Kammler. Kammler was in charge of A-bomb production. 

In British internment at CSDIC camp 11, Dornberger revealed to General Bassenge that he and von Braun went to Lisbon in December 1944 for secret talks with officials from GEC (Gerard Swope Clark Haynes Minor)

It appears that this meeting was sanctioned by Kammler and may have involved the secret abandonment of Nazi Germany's A-bomb project. 

It may be that the preparations were laid for an attack on New York in a ruse to trick Hitler until it was too late. 

I assume these aircraft were dismantled and buried at Gardermoen airport. Has anybody ever thought to dig up this now abandoned airport to find the aircraft ?


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## krieghund (Mar 27, 2009)

UPDATE:: just met a friend who is a rep for Jeppesen who is from Norway and related to me father knows of this airfield and the bombers that there. they were he177s with extra fuselage fuel cells like the he274(STILL ONE WAY TRIP). the british army did not preserve any and rolled over all the aircraft with their armor in Norway.

NUTS!!!!


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## billswagger (Mar 27, 2009)

krieghund said:


> I found this during my readings and was wondering if anyone could shead any light on this article?
> 
> It is from the Washington Post dated June 29, 1945.
> 
> Which base would this be and what type of aircraft were there and where were they taken to and examined?



The idea of a transatlantic flight to bomb new york might have been in the works, but we never know if it was propaganda. There are many things that the press reported to keep America in the fight and the moral of the soldiers up. Even if it meant inflating statistics and embellishing the performance of certain aircraft.
Having several relatives who were in WW2, they all mention the use of this type of propaganda.


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## fly boy (Mar 27, 2009)

evangilder said:


> It would have been a one way trip, from what I understand. There were a lot of wonder weapons that were on paper, or in progress when the war ended. It was the last desperate moves to try and delay the inevitable.
> 
> I honestly don't think it would have changed much if they had even succeeded in bombing New York. Fighters and anti-aircraft would be put in the area and any war industries would be moved out of range.
> 
> The ability to bomb New York would have not been a way to turn defeat into victory.



i agree with that its about 4000-5000 miles to get there from berlin but oslo about3000-4000 still wound't make it.


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## krieghund (Mar 27, 2009)

Their only real possibility was the Ju390 or Me264 if Gen Wever hadn't been killed. I can prove both but the Me264 is easier for fuel but the Ju390 is faster to manufacture.

Question is would an attack had the same reaction the japanese had to the dolittle raid or would have it given us more resolve Could have been bad holding some fighter groups for home defense.


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## HealzDevo (May 23, 2009)

I think limited shock, but it would have been recovered from much faster, plus it doesn't really fix the main problem the Germans really had at that time. Ie. a lot of their weapons such as tanks and aircraft were really effective but just far too expensive to produce in effective enough numbers against the Allies... Therefore the end result would have been the same, Germany gets crushed maybe a fraction faster...


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## Propellorhead (Jun 25, 2010)

I first read of Gardermoen many years ago in a book by William Stevenson called the Bormann Brotherhood who said to the effect that the airfield was built by the SS in a forrest. Stevenson himself was a WW2 Royal navy aviator and naval intelligence officer. He was quite specific that the airfield was built and operated by the SS.

The illustration attached is a WW2 vintage illustration of the He-227 B-5. These aircraft were built by converting older He-177 A-0 airframes with new tails (resembling the Manchester's tail) with longer span wings sporting four engine nacelles. They were powered by the high altitude Jumo 213E engines used on Dora fighters. 







My first inclination like that of Juha would be perhaps these aircraft were the He-227 B-5 but these only had a range of 4,500 miles. Erhard Milch made a passing remark in his memoirs that there was a proposal to fly land planes for an attack on New York via a refuelling stop at Greenland. That still does not tally with the 7000 mile range mentioned by the NY Times article. 

The only aircraft however which might fit the 7000 mile range described in that NY Times article was perhaps the Horten Ho XVIII. The Argentines built a scaled down version of the Ho XVIII called the Naranjero. 






Is it possible that Hienkel was building the Horten Ho XVIII near Oslo? 

I am not at all certain that it was a Hienkel factory near Oslo which the RAF bombed, but I do recall reading online somewhere a claim that it was a factory building a Hienkel jet bomber. I am scratching my head now trying to recall where I first read that claim and from whom. 

I have read a claim that the Horten type Ho XVIII was developed at the Erzgebirge area which is known more for it's WW2 Radium / Uranium mines and the so called Nazi Bell device. There were three luftwaffe aircrfields within the area of the massive Erzgebirge underground complex. 

Relating this back to an earlier linked question of this thread about the aircraft factory bombed near Oslo by the RAF has anybody got any further clues what aircraft exactly might have been built near there?

Only the SS Kammler Fuhrrungstab had the freedom to build any projects like the Ho XVIII, prototype or otherwise later in the war. Why bomb an aircraft factory in Norway so late in the war? (late April 1944)

(Apologies, I followed a link from a related thread and answered it here.) 
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/messerschmitt-me-264-heinkel-he-277-a-7540-5.html


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## pinsog (Jun 27, 2010)

So we hammered Germany and Japan for YEARS, towards the end we had 1,000 bombers per raid, and the Germans are going to crush American resolve with 40 bombers carrying 4 500 pounders on a single raid? Ok. I say single raid, because the second raid would have been intercepted by a swarm of either P38's, P47's or something. This bomber did't even exist, but lets say we GAVE them a 200 bomber fleet of B36's, which didn't exist for several years, none of them had mechanical failures, or crashed on takeoff or landing. The first raid would have been a suprise, the second they would have been decimated by interceptors, possibly starting with planes based out of England(P47N's, longrange, good firepower), then carrier based F4U's, followed by landbased aircraft when they reached America, followed by carrier based F4U's, followed by England based fighters. Could even a B52 fly this mission without refueling???? Or, they fly over, drop 4 bombs each and then bailout and lose the entire raid, every raid???????? Brilliant strategy.


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## zoomar (Jun 30, 2010)

billswagger said:


> The idea of a transatlantic flight to bomb new york might have been in the works, but we never know if it was propaganda. There are many things that the press reported to keep America in the fight and the moral of the soldiers up. Even if it meant inflating statistics and embellishing the performance of certain aircraft.
> Having several relatives who were in WW2, they all mention the use of this type of propaganda.



That, and various sources of German mis-information as well. Personally, I take almost any reports of "last-ditch" or secret Nazi plans to bomb the US and other super-weapons in the works with more than a grain of salt. People love to read about such stuff and many will feed this hunger.


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