# All aircraft and stories



## Rell (Mar 12, 2004)

You all keep putting topics like what the best aircraft is, best aircraft for night raids, best bi plane, best looking plane, best plane to flying during early evening around 6ish etc  

But if someone was going to make a film about any aircraft during WW2 (could just be about one particular raid or jorney or man) what do you think would make the best film, bear in mind it has to be action packed, and have a good story etc

p.s I wonder which part of the Gladiators history Bronze Whaler will recommend


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## nutter (Mar 12, 2004)

well its got to be the battle of britain hasn't it
or a remake of the dambusters


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## jj1982 (Mar 12, 2004)

Some of you may have heard about a chap call Douglas Bader. He was born in 1910 in london. His father died from a shrapnel wound in 1922. Douglas joined the RAF in 1928 having won his cadetship. He reported to Cranwell in Sept '28 and underwent his flight training. His superious did not like his rebellious attitude and was warneed that the RAF would'nt go on understanding. His flying improved dramaticlly and came in second to being awared the sword of honour. 

After graduating in 1930, Bader was commisioned a piolet officer and was posted to 23 squadron at Kenly airfield (Just up the road from me actually) and was flying the gloster gamecock. The 23 squadron was latter eqquiped with the Bristol Bulldog Fighters where a stint of showing off with some aerobatics in a plane that he was inexpereinced in went horribly wrong. Bader flew too low in the bulldog, began a slow turn and clipped the ground with one of the wings. Baders right leg was was amputated above the knee and the left leg six inches below the knee. 

After a long recovery Bader was transferred to the RAF hospital in Uxbridge in 1932. He was the first person to require two artificial legs from the Dessoutter brothers who made two legs out of light metal alloys...much the same as aluminium.

Soon he was driving a car, andhis thoughts returned to flying. In April 1933 he was retired on grounds of ill health.

In september 1939 Bader again applied to the RAf for flight duties and was helped by an old friend. I havent his name. He passed a flying test at the RAF's CFS in Ipavon.

In nov '30, Bader flew solo in an Avro Tudor K. He doon moved up into the fairey battle, then to the spitfires and finally got a chance inside a hurricane. In feb 1940, Bader joined 19squadron at Duxford (Visited many times with old friend Bronze, actually where i remember all about his from). At age 29 he was appointed flight commander in 222 squadron. He carelessly took off with his section with the spitfires propeller set to coarse pitch and crashed. He bent his legs. He admitted his mistake and was not reprimanded. Bader trained his 222 flight piliots in his own style of fighting. In June 1940 the squadron was sent to dunkirk to cover the evac. He Got his first kill here, M ME -109. 

In June 1940, Bader was given command of 242 squadron, A candadian unit. The pilots were apprehensive about thier new legless leader, however Bader set out o prove them what he was made of and throughly impressed them by taking up a hurricane and displaying aerobatics for half an hour. (You would have thought he learnt his lesson first time round). The squadron was re-equipped with the necessaries to matain the planes they were flying. On August 30th, 242 squadron intercepted a group of 30 ferman bombers and fighters. Beteween them they claimed 11 kills, a respectful figure but bader said that if they had three or more squadrons attacking the huge german formation, all of the attackers would have been shot down. Thus, the "big Wing" concept was born.#

Bader led the wing into action for the first time on 7sept 1940 against a large german formation heading for london. However having scrambled too late, the wing was underneath the bombers and the figher escorts when they intersepted north of the Thames. All 242 and 310 could do was to attack as best they could whislt 19 squadron's spitfires held off the attacking Me-109's. The wing destroyed 11 aircraft with only two hurricanes shot down. 

The Polish 302 hurricane squadron and the Auxiliarry 601 spitfire squadron was later added to the wing. The tactic worked hen on sept 5th 1940 Baders Duxford wing helped to break up a massed luftwaffe attack on London.

When the BoB ended, Bader was awared the DFC and DSO for gallantry and leadership of the highest order and became commander of the duxford Wing, which was later credited with destroying 152 german aircraft with the loss of only 30 pilots.

In march 1941, Bader now a wing commander left 242 and took over Tangmree Wing, consisiting of three spitfire squadrons, 145, 610 and 616, plus a Beaufighter squadron. The wing developed the finger four formation which later became standard throughout the RAF and AAF. 

Whilst leading his wing over france on on August 9 1941, Bader suffered a mid air collison with a Me-109 and was captured by the germans. Hie spent most of the war in captivity including time and the castle Colditz for his escape efforts. Once released, he rushed to paris to demand a spitfire but permission was refused. His personal tally stood at 22.5 german aircraft!He returned to England and took command of of the essex secotr of 11th Group at North Weal. On September 15 he personally led the victory flypast of 300 RAF planes over london. 

After leaving the RAF in late Feb 1946 Bader flew all over the world, visiteing services hospital. He was knighed in 1976 for his service to amputees "So many of whom he had helped and inspired by his example and character." On september 5th 1982 Douglas Bader died of a heart ataack..He was 72 years old. 

"He became a legend at the first in the personification of RAF heroism during the Second World War"


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## jj1982 (Mar 12, 2004)

oops i forgot to mention that i think that the story of this incredibley, brave (stupid some may say!) man, his personal courage, gallentry and pure enthusiasm would make a great film. 
Just a quick word of thanks to my old friend Bronzewhaler who convinced me many years ago that although Duxford is some distance from home, it was worth a drive up there. Without his unrelenting earache i would never have got to learn about these amazing facts of such an incredible person. Also I have my grandfather to thank as he provided me with a lot of the dates i used...so blame him not me if you think the details are wrong.


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## jj1982 (Mar 12, 2004)

If there is anyone out there with stories of similar feats then please let me know as I am going to start a project about amazing pilots of the 2nd ww. They do not have to be aces but perhaps one who has shown tremendous courage in the face of adversity. let me know, message me or even just leave a reply..I will consider all materials, particulary interested though in any russian pilots. Will even consider yanks!!!!


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 12, 2004)

well, a remake of the damnbusters would be jolly spiffing 8) it cant be done by the americans though, or there will be F-16 jets instead of lancasters and there will be a big explosion in which some british people would be "accidently" killed 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 12, 2004)

Guy Penrose Gibson. he was the main man during the Dambusters raid. he showed amazing courage by escorting each plane on it's attack run to try and draw away the flack, it's debateable weather the raid would have been a sucess if he hadn't..............................


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 12, 2004)

hmmmmm......


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## Hot Space (Mar 12, 2004)

jj1982 said:


> Some of you may have heard about a chap call Douglas Bader. He was born in 1910 in london. His father died from a shrapnel wound in 1922. Douglas joined the RAF in 1928 having won his cadetship. He reported to Cranwell in Sept '28 and underwent his flight training. His superious did not like his rebellious attitude and was warneed that the RAF would'nt go on understanding. His flying improved dramaticlly and came in second to being awared the sword of honour.
> 
> After graduating in 1930, Bader was commisioned a piolet officer and was posted to 23 squadron at Kenly airfield (Just up the road from me actually) and was flying the gloster gamecock. The 23 squadron was latter eqquiped with the Bristol Bulldog Fighters where a stint of showing off with some aerobatics in a plane that he was inexpereinced in went horribly wrong. Bader flew too low in the bulldog, began a slow turn and clipped the ground with one of the wings. Baders right leg was was amputated above the knee and the left leg six inches below the knee.
> 
> ...



A boring fact here, but did you know that Douglas Bader could pull the tightest "G" of ANYONE ever who has flown a Plane  

Hot Space


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 13, 2004)

did you know that the design of the spitfire was so good that the fusilage and wings could take strain up to Mach 1.3 without breaking up....................


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## Hot Space (Mar 13, 2004)

Did you know that one went Mach 0.93 in a Dive once  

Hot Space


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 14, 2004)

Although it didn't happen during WW2 i think Alcock and Browns first non-stop transatlantic flight in 1919 would make a fantastic film! 

Although not everyone knows about it those guys went through hell to do it! they were absolute heroes!

Captain John Alcock and Lt Arthur Whitten Brown (Pilot and Navigator) took off from Newfoundland in the USA on the 14th June 1919 and landed (well, crashed) 16 hours later in Clifden in Ireland - they were the very first men to fly solo across the atlantic and they achived this amazing feat flying a Vickers Vimy twin engined bi-plane that was named after a famous battle during WW1. It was originally designed as a heavy bomber during WW1 (but arrived too late to see active service) the vimy itself is an amazing aircraft which was also used to fly from London to Australia in 1919 and then from London to Capetown (South Africa) in 1920.

Alcock and Brown experienced all sorts of problems during the flight - Atlantic weather is some of the worst you can see.

Their radio broke down shortly after takeoff, fog enveloped the men making visibility very poor Alcock later commented "We are tired of being alone in the fog and drizzle, sometimes discovering that we are flying upside down" On several occasions the fog would clear just enough for Alcock to spot that they were mere feet away from crashing into the sea. At one point Alcock lost control of the plane and it began to spin in the air. Emerging from the fog they found themselves dangerously close to the sea. However, through Alcock's expert flying, the plane began to regain its position and they climbed back up into the sky.
Brown only had a naval sextant to navigate with and this itself is nearly impossible without clear skies - when they finally found one clear patch of clear sky Brown used the star constalation 'Vega' and the moon to fix their position. 
At one point an exhaust flap panel came loose and the intense heat and flames from the port engines outlet began to melt the aircraft!

Once the pair finally sighted Ireland they came in to land at 8.40am in Clifden - they thought they had spotted a nice green field to set their plane down...they ignored the local people frantically waving their arms to warn the airmen of their mistake because Alcock and Brown simply assumed they were welcoming them..the 'field' was in fact a bog and the plane was damaged during the landing (as my signature picture clearly illustrates) upon arriving "safely" in Ireland the two exhausted and slightly bruised men were welcomed by the locals (soldiers, wireless operators and local residents) most of whom were wearing pyjamas! The Aviators were assisted from the remains of the Vimy and cpatain Alcock produced some letters he had been given back in the US to deliver once he reached Ireland - they were soaked with rainwater and he remarked Ironically "I'm the first transatlantic postman"

Their achivement was amazing (although most people who have no enthusiasm about aviation wouldn't know Alcock and Brown if they met them) and it will live on in history - not only was it a historical occasion but a great triumph of British aviation - a British Plane with a British Crew had done something no-one else had achived before - Alcock later remarked "Yesterday I was in America...I am the first man in Europe to say that"

The actual Vickers Vimy that flew the Atlantic ocean has been repaired and is on display at the Science museaum in London

The image below on my Signature is a picture of the crashed Vickers Vimy in Ireland and as you can see the two men were quite lucky to escape with their lives - when you consider the cockpit where they sat was situated right in the front nose of the plane


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Mar 14, 2004)

well the vimy was the first to fly from england to australia, which i think is more impressive than crossong the atlanctic


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 14, 2004)

I think that just highlights how much we take cross atlantic travel for granted - it was no easy feat - Australia may have taken longer but i'm sure the atlantic journey was more tretcharous - you have to appreciate that it was the first time anything like that had ever been done - non-one had ever thought it was possible - and if Alcock and Brown hadn't have done it - the trip to australia wouldn't have happened in 1920


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## Andrew (Mar 15, 2004)

A good story to tell in film form would be about Adrian Warburton, the famous Photo Reconnaissance Pilot, who flew one mission too many , while he was on sick leave , posted to a P38 Lightning Sqaudron as a liason officer.

Andrew


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 29, 2004)

Was that a joke? i wasn't sure cos if it was it went totally over my head


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## jj1982 (Mar 29, 2004)

Adrian Warburton was on leave when he flew over Germany and dissapeared on the 12 of April, 1944. I am unsure whether or not this mystery has been solved, so Andrew, Please enlighten us with a tad more details.


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 29, 2004)

jj1982 said:


> Adrian Warburton was on leave when he flew over Germany and dissapeared on the 12 of April, 1944. I am unsure whether or not this mystery has been solved, so Andrew, Please enlighten us with a tad more details.



Are you sure he was on leave? only i didn't think pilots 'on leave' were allowed to borrow military aircraft and fly over enemy territory sitting in it!


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## jj1982 (Mar 29, 2004)

He was meant to be on leave but for some bizzare reason he decided to fly out on a mission......I think.....I cant remember all details., obviously Andrew does however


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 29, 2004)

Yeah Andrew - please post more details -we're all facinated.........I think


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 29, 2004)

i would be fascinated but seen as im too lazy to see what im supposed to be fascinated about im not fascinated, therefore you have a fascination of my fascination that im not fascinated 8)


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## GermansRGeniuses (Mar 29, 2004)

!!!

Reichsmarschall Batista wants his posts back and wonders if Kiwimac is no longer Fuhrer....


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## bronzewhaler82 (Mar 31, 2004)

cheddar cheese said:


> i would be fascinated but seen as im too lazy to see what im supposed to be fascinated about im not fascinated, therefore you have a fascination of my fascination that im not fascinated 8)



Whoa...that gave me a headache


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## cheddar cheese (Mar 31, 2004)

ive thought up better, but thanks anyway 8)


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## kiwimac (Apr 4, 2004)

Do not worry your little head mein Reichfuhrer!

Kiwimac is STILL Fuhrer!

I have cunningly being laying low!

Now I think a GREAT idea for a film might be Rudel his AMAZING successes flying that wondermachine, the JU 87. Or perhaps Erich Hartmann, the highest scoring fighter-pilot of all time (so far!)

FVS Kiwimac


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## R Pope (Apr 4, 2004)

Hans Marseille would make a great movie, or Buzz (never Screwball) Beurling. Marmaduke Pattle too, or if you need a Yank, how about "Wheaties" Welch--Pearl Harbour right to the end , only to die in an F-100 test.


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 5, 2004)

> Now I think a GREAT idea for a film might be Rudel his AMAZING successes flying that wondermachine, the JU 87.



wouldnt be very long, 5 mins in to the film it would get either shot down or it would just fall apart and the film would be ended!


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 5, 2004)

kiwimac said:


> Now I think a GREAT idea for a film might be Rudel his AMAZING successes flying that wondermachine, the JU 87. Or perhaps Erich Hartmann, the highest scoring fighter-pilot of all time (so far!)



oh god will you give it a rest about that guy....its like you are married to him or something 

and the only reason the Ju87 was a 'Wondermachine' was because it was a wonder it ever managed to get into the air and fly a mission without being shot down..i bet this rudel fellow took off in his Ju87 and landed at a secret airfield a few miles outside of his base - got into a Ju88 with a crew and flew the mission then swapped back planes before he returned to base... 8)


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 5, 2004)

> i bet this rudel fellow took off in his Ju87 and landed at a secret airfield a few miles outside of his base - got into a Ju88 with a crew and flew the mission then swapped back planes before he returned to base...



      



> oh god will you give it a rest about that guy....its like you are married to him or something



dont give him ideas


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 6, 2004)

ewwww


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 6, 2004)

8)


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 6, 2004)

I must say though i think the story of the Swordfish attacking Taranto bay in Italy and sinking all those Italian warships would make a great film 8)


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 6, 2004)

probably would actually, yeah 8)


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## Andrew (Apr 7, 2004)

> Adrian Warburton was on leave when he flew over Germany and dissapeared on the 12 of April, 1944. I am unsure whether or not this mystery has been solved, so Andrew, Please enlighten us with a tad more details.



Adrian was posted to a USAF Photo Recon Sqaudron as a liaison officer , this as you can imagine is a noncom posting , he was on sick leave at the time but apparently insisted on being posted somewhere , he was then talked into going on a photo recon mission over Germany , where the aircraft he was flying got shot down and crashed and he died in the wrekage .

There was a programme on TV a couple of months ago which covered a part of his service in RAF , and this programme interviewd a couple of people who were trying to find out what happened to him . these 2 people evenually turned up at a Village in Germany, where there were eye witness reports of a P38 Lightening crashing into a field in flames , this apparently happend the day he disapeard , a certain area of the field was dug up and they came across the remains of a P38 and a human skeleton , the skeletal remains were dug up and were buried in a War Cemetry with full Millitary Honours and a Headstone with Adrian's Name was made .

There were apparently only 2 Photo Recon Missions that day by the USAF , and the other pilot returned safetly


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## bronzewhaler82 (Apr 7, 2004)

Oh god thats a bloody horrible story! that poor bastard probably died in flames in terrible agony on his own  - that would make a terrible film! (unless you like the depressing sort) hollywood would probably cheer it up a bit anyway and give it a nice happy ending...can't think of one off the top of my head


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 10, 2004)

they were flames of happyness....................


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 20, 2004)

i think a film about b-17 crew flying missions would be better that one about lancasters flying missions 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 20, 2004)

why might i ask, so you could see them get shot up to flames?


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## plan_D (Apr 21, 2004)

Well Memphis Belle was an ejoyable movie and the 'Mother and Country' going down plus the many others made the movie more entertaining, so, I suppose that would be the reason. 

Anyway, they had a movie based on Lancasters...'Dambusters' anybody? I liked that movie.


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## kiwimac (Apr 21, 2004)

Erich Hartmann for sure!

or perhaps Flt. Lieut. Trevor "Squiffy" Jones, the world famous sub-aquatic Lysander pilot!

FVS Kiwimac


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 21, 2004)

> Anyway, they had a movie based on Lancasters...'Dambusters' anybody? I liked that movie.



i like it, the effects are crap, but it's still one hell of a film, and it's one of the VERY few that are historically accurate........................


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## plan_D (Apr 22, 2004)

Well it is an old film. The effects on Memphis Belle are poor as well but that's an ok film.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 22, 2004)

i can't say i've ever seen it..............


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## plan_D (Apr 23, 2004)

It's nothing special, and the 109s on it seem to have had their guns moved from their nose to their wings.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 23, 2004)

it's the same on the front cover of the film BoB................


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## GermansRGeniuses (Apr 23, 2004)

Jv44 would be great as well, the desperation of that squadron and the talents of the pilots would add drama to a good (if made properly) action film. but concerning BoB the film and the real thing, in the film they use Spanish remakes of the Bf109 using existing airframes with new engines and same with the He111's, in that movie, they have (great engine indeed) merlins. what the "Bf109s" use is unknown to me however. but anyway, concerning the guns, early Emils DID HAVE wing guns. (Mg17s i believe) so that isnt too off but that should be changed in Memphis Belle! one more thing about the "109s" in BoB, if you look through the wallpaper section on this site as well as the color photo gallery, you will see a "Bf109" that look like it has an allison from a P-40 and also looks like a modified P-40 in general (i once showed crazy the pic but forget what it is called, but the wallpaper is simply titled "me109" if i remember correctly.


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## plan_D (Apr 24, 2004)

On the cover of BoB you can see the guns under it's wings but this happened anyway, sometimes carrying 20mm Cannons under wing as well. However you can see the guns on the nose, but not the 20mm in the spinner. 

On Memphis Belle the guns are nowhere to be found, even when firing, on the nose or in the spinner, it's an obvious mistake.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 24, 2004)

like i say, i've never seen the film, do you reccomend it?................


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## plan_D (Apr 25, 2004)

I suppose it's worthwhile to see once or twice, as I said it's an ok film.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 25, 2004)

bearing in mind I'm an avid lancaster fan...............


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 28, 2004)

the BoB film, would that be the one starring michael caine? if so then my history teacher le me borrow that, its quite a good film 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 28, 2004)

allot of english stereotypes though.....................


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## plan_D (Apr 29, 2004)

It's still good. 

Lanc does you being a Lancaster fan prevent you from looking into any other bomber? It's a good movie, it's more about the crew than the aircraft.


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## cheddar cheese (Apr 29, 2004)

> Lanc does you being a Lancaster fan prevent you from looking into any other bomber?



the only other bomber he shown interest in that i can remember is the halfix, other than that is lancaster all the way i think


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 29, 2004)

not true, i like many bombers, just not the B-17.................


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## cheddar cheese (May 1, 2004)

the b-17 was a fine plane 8)


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 2, 2004)

but it was nowhere near the best..................


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## Lightning Guy (May 2, 2004)

I've always thought some of the American bomber raids, like Schweinfurt or Ploesti would have made great movies. Hopefully they would be made more accurate than the movie Memphis Belle.

In the Pacific, Midway is a great film but I think a movie set around the huge air battles around the Marianas would have been pretty cool.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 2, 2004)

how do you think the americans would have carried out the dambusters raid, any thoughts are openly recieved................


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## Lightning Guy (May 3, 2004)

It's hard to say. We definitely didn't have the equipment at the time (we were still trying to knock out U-boat pins with 2000lb bombs!). But I don't think anyone in America had considered that kind of a strike before. I'm sure that if America decided to have gone through with it, something could have been worked up. A modified B-24 perhaps?


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## plan_D (May 4, 2004)

The B-24 would have been more ideal than the B-17.


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## Lightning Guy (May 4, 2004)

I agree. In general the B-24 was more versatile than the B-17. Plus you had a much larger bomb bay to toy around with.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 5, 2004)

i would have thought they would want to use a B-17??


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## plan_D (May 5, 2004)

Why would you want to use the B-17 for the task, the B-24 was better.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 8, 2004)

but why would the american use the B-24 when it would upset the public, we all know how much the americans hate to upset their public..........


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## plan_D (May 10, 2004)

How would it upset their public? And I don't think the American government really gives a rats ass about it's public, it'll do what it wants.


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## cheddar cheese (May 13, 2004)

i think the lanc was being sarky


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## Lightning Guy (May 13, 2004)

Either way. The B-24 was far more versatile than the B-17. Had America wanted to trying something like the Dambusters raid it would have been B-24s doing it.


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## plan_D (May 13, 2004)

I agree with Lightning Guy, where's this 'I never agree with you'?


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## Lightning Guy (May 13, 2004)

I didn't say never. But apparently we never will get this naval fighter thing worked out. That's mostly what I was refering to.


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## plan_D (May 14, 2004)

That's like the only one.


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## Lightning Guy (May 14, 2004)

Well there's the Mosquito v. P-38 one too.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 14, 2004)

what weapon would the americans use, they wouldn't have been able to come up with anything like the upkeep....................


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## cheddar cheese (May 14, 2004)

it was just an example lanc, and i think they would have used b-24's too


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## plan_D (May 14, 2004)

And the Mosquito v P-38 but that's more of personal taste than performance of plane. I think we have all agreed that the B-24 would have been used.


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## Lightning Guy (May 15, 2004)

I don't think you can honestly say the Americans would have never come up with anything that would have worked. We never considered a raid on the dams and if we had I am reasonably sure we could have made something work. If not, we could've just nuked em.


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## plan_D (May 15, 2004)

I don't think so, it took long enough and basically one man to give us the idea. We could have just nuked 'em, that's what I expect from an American.


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## Lightning Guy (May 15, 2004)

That was a (mostly) sarcastic comment and was intended to remind Lanc that America had some skill at weapons development. 

Part of the reason only one man came up with the idea was that only one man was looking for it. If America had had an interested in attacking the dams, an appropriate weapon would have been developed.


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## plan_D (May 15, 2004)

Yes, well they didn't and we did...


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 15, 2004)

> I don't think you can honestly say the Americans would have never come up with anything that would have worked.



i don't recall saying they wouldn't i just asked what they would use as they wouldn't have come up with anything like the upkeep................


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## Lightning Guy (May 15, 2004)

And that's what I was referring to. You can't honestly say what America would or wouldn't have come up with. Yes Barnes Wallis was one of the greatest designers of his era, but America had very good engineers too. I, personally, thing Wallis' biggest contribution was considering a raid on the dams. The rest was mostly a matter of physics.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 16, 2004)

ok then, just suppose they didn't come up with the upkeep, what would they use then..................


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## cheddar cheese (May 16, 2004)

macdonalds outlets in germany, make all the nazis fat and then us brits go in fit and healthy and polish em all off


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## Lightning Guy (May 17, 2004)

I don't know. They had a rocket carrying an 11.75in warhead that they attempted to use against Yamato. They may have tried something like that only 'supersized.'


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

C.C I think that America had than idea but someone messed up and let them escape in America. 
Supersized Lightning? Like everything in America. I doubt it would have worked anyway, the rocket I mean.


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## Lightning Guy (May 17, 2004)

I'm not claiming it would have worked either. Lanc asked what I thought they would have used and I was offering a possibility. And for the record, Upkeep was only effective against dams with a particular construction. It is possible that whatever America might have designed would have been effective against the others.


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

Britain might have invented everything, but it didn't. And America didn't invent the Upkeep, or anything better.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 17, 2004)

i think it's fair to say that we did have, and still have some of the most inventive inventors in the world..............


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## plan_D (May 17, 2004)

Most of the worlds modern inventions have come from Britain.


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## Lightning Guy (May 17, 2004)

I think you guys rival Hitler for concepts of national superiority . . . 

Back to the hypothetical question about an America raid on the dams. Towards the end of the war, America loaded B-17s with 20,000lbs of explosives and used them as remote control missiles (Operation Aphrodite). Something like that might have been used against the dams had America attempted the raid.


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## plan_D (May 18, 2004)

The Germans had proper remote controlled missiles. 

Excuse me, Britain has invented a lot of modern world technology, and most of the worlds military training and practices have come from Britain. We have reason to say what we do, the Americans however say they are the greatest without EVER recognising that most of their technology and military practice has come from either Britain or Germany. 

Hitler knew his country was superior, and I think the fact that Germany took on the World for 6 years, and created A LOT gave him the right to say it.


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## Lightning Guy (May 18, 2004)

I'm gonna just bit my tongue.


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## plan_D (May 19, 2004)

If only all of America could do that, eh?


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## Lightning Guy (May 19, 2004)

And perhaps all of Britain . . .


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 19, 2004)

no way, we deserve a title like that, unlike america


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## plan_D (May 20, 2004)

Yes, if you can't admit what Britain has done for the world, and mostly America maybe I should assume you are like 90% of the Americans, and I know you wouldn't want to be thought of the same as them. I know I wouldn't.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 22, 2004)

however i'll admit america has given us some good stuff aswell, but they can have mac donalds back, we don't want it..............


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## plan_D (May 25, 2004)

There's nothing wrong with McDonalds, as long as you don't eat it all the time. 

America has given the world a lot, the transistor was a huge jump in electronical technology. I can admit what other countries have given, even Germany which 90% of the world refuse to admit jumped this world ahead in technology, especially rocket wise.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 25, 2004)

most people still hate the germans, but i think they're pretty stupid unless they have a good reason, if you ask someone, most won't be able to give a answer, of they'll just say, "because of the war", thay need to learn to put it behind them, they don't even realise how much they owe to the conflict..................


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## Lightning Guy (May 25, 2004)

Because most people don't have a clear understanding of the condition of Germany during WWII. A lot of people (including people in the military) were staunch Anti-Nazi's they just kept their trap shut so they could survive. And many Germans were simply fighting to defend their home, either from Western bombing or from the rape and abuse the Soviets seemed to fond of.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 26, 2004)

i think people today are still under the influence of propergander....................


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## Lightning Guy (May 26, 2004)

What is propergander? It sounds like a male goose that knows how to behave himself.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (May 26, 2004)

sorry, i have apauling spelling................


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 5, 2004)




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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 8, 2004)

and i made a mistake in the post saying i made mistakes................


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 8, 2004)

yup, as demonstarted by your interpretation of "apalling" or is it 2 p's? im not quite sure


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 8, 2004)

> demonstarted



by the looks of things your spelling's hardly up to scratch either...........


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 9, 2004)

Back to something on topic. I heard tonight that P-47 pilot Robert Johnson once brought his plane back after taking more that 100 rounds of machine gun fire and 21 rounds of cannon fire. That's a pretty tough airplane.


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 9, 2004)

wow.....

and lanc, i do actually know how to spell demonstrated, it was a typo. there are differences between bad spelling and typos.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 9, 2004)

but can you prove it.................

and a B-17 made it back to base once with 800+ holes in it's fusilage, you can't say i always bash it........................


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 9, 2004)

but youre not praising it, just making a statement. you could say that it couldnt even destroy what was shooting at it until it had taken over 800 shots. but the b-17 was a very tough plane, you cant deny that.


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 10, 2004)

If I am thinking of the plane you are referring to, the ground crew counted 800 holes between the tail and the radio room (about half the planes length), got bored, and stopped counting. By the time it came into land it was only flying on one engine, 5 members of the crew had been wounded (all remained at their stations), and 13 or 14 German fighters had been shot down.


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 10, 2004)

wow, thats really pretty amazing


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## kiwimac (Jun 10, 2004)

Hey CC

How come my signature was edited and yours was not? Or is it a 'mod' thing?

Kiwimac


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 10, 2004)

i really dont have a clue, sorry mate, yours wasnt really big in the first place and its way too small now


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 11, 2004)

erich wouldn't think so...............


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 13, 2004)

That B-17 story is perhaps the most impressive I've heard of the war. The tail gunner to a round through the hip that ricocheted off his pelvis and back out. One waist gunner suffered a compound fracture to his forearm and the other took a cannon round clean through his belly. All three men stayed at their post and each knocked down a fighter AFTER being wounded. The waist gunner who had been hit by the cannon round later died in a hospital.


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## a finn (Jun 13, 2004)

Here's a funny story from Finland. Storyteller is "Illu" Juutilainen, plane of course Brewster B-239 : "It was also a "gentleman's traveling plane", for it had a roomy cockpit and room in the fuselage, as we used to say, for a poker gang. We unofficially transported mechanics, spare parts, oil canisters etc. in our Brewsters. Once, though two pilots went a little too far - a flight sergeant was flying, and in the fuselage was a second lieutenant, his friend, his dog and a lot of baggage. Upon landing the plane went off the runway and the suitcase came out. Both pilots were punished. Humorously, the lieutenant's sentence started with:"As the commander of the crew of a single-seat fighter.." "


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## cheddar cheese (Jun 13, 2004)




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## plan_D (Jun 13, 2004)

I've seen a picture of a Waist Gunner being hit by a 20mm round and surviving because of his Flak Jacket.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 13, 2004)

just one question regarding jackets (see, this is on topic), why were some jackets known as Mae Wests?? was it just rhyming slang??


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 13, 2004)

A Mae West was the inflatible life jacket. The real Mae West was an American star known for her breasts and, to the excitable young men involved in the war, and inflated life jacket gave the impression of two breasts and thus were nicknamed Mae Wests.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 14, 2004)

ah, so today they would be known as jordans??


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## Lightning Guy (Jun 14, 2004)

Well, on Mail Call on the History Channel (I don't know if you have that across the Pond) they said they might be known as Pam Andersons.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 15, 2004)

*non existant tounge out smily*


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