# Bomber crash site, type unknown, help needed



## justmic (Jan 20, 2008)

Hi, 
I am from Austria and have discovered a crash site. 
Background:
We bought a little farm north of the Alps not far from the Danube last summer. It turned out that, sometime from 1944 to 1945, a bomber which was shot down by the st. Valentin flak, crashed in our and our neighbors forrest. The neighbors remembered the fact and told uns one day that the plane was shot down during a raid against either Linz, Steyr or Wels.
I dont have very much information yet about the exact date and time.

Today we decided to take a closer look and discovered very many parts. The best thing we found looks like it could be a windowframe. Other things we found include wires, a lot of aluminum and a few things which have readable numbers on them.
I need help identifiing what we found and maybe finding out what type of bomber it could have been. The neighbors remember their parenst speaking of a four engined aircraft (it came in from the south, chopped of the top of the neighbors pear tree hitting the roof antenna and then crashed in the trees beyond.) 
I have also been thinking about contacting someone about missing personel.
Nobody knows if there where any survivors after the crash, it seems that a few chutes had been seen, but that ist all. No information about how many.

Is anybody interested in helping to identify pieces? If so I will post pictures of all the parts we found. We have only just begun to dig.

Thanks,

Greetings from central Europe,

Michael


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## seesul (Jan 20, 2008)

Welcome Michael and enjoy the forum.
Post the pics please, these could help us to identify the type of the aircraft...


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## seesul (Jan 20, 2008)

...and the crash site closer location would be helpful...


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## Micdrow (Jan 20, 2008)

Hi Michael, welcome to the forum. Numbers, pictures and a more exact location would be very helpful in trying to identify the wreck. A metal detector may help also. 

From what I understand bigger parts of the aircraft can be up to and more then 6 feet into the ground due to the impact of the aircraft. 

Might be worth it to ask the neighbors if they remember if anybody came out and salvaged anything after the crash due to live ammo or bombs that could be in the area if it is a bomber.

Hope that helps!!!


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## justmic (Jan 20, 2008)

Hi,
thanks for the welcome.

I will try to post the pictures tomorow. 

Michael


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## justmic (Jan 20, 2008)

couldnt wait.... fotographed two parts.... more to come next few days..


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## justmic (Jan 20, 2008)

Well, that didnt work right... kinda big the pictures...what is the best size for jpegs?


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## lesofprimus (Jan 20, 2008)

800x600


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## lesofprimus (Jan 20, 2008)

And u really wanna take pics that have numbers/serials on them, as to help identify...


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 20, 2008)

Hard to say - it looks like a fuel filler neck.

Like Dan said, any part numbers or inspection stamps would help, espically if they are taken from airframe (aluminum) parts. Things like knobs, switches, and fluid fittings are standard parts and could go to any a number of aircraft.


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## syscom3 (Jan 20, 2008)

Do you have any clue on the exact date the plane was shotdown on?


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

One part (see picture), material aluminium length in centimeters, has a number on it.
No information on exact date of crash. Will be hard to find out but im on to it.
I will post all the other fotos tonight, there are very many interesting parts.


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

The part that Flyboy identified as a maybe fuel filler neck, I found six of those. No telling how many more there are. Of the crown nuts only one. If you look closer at the hugh pics you can see some stamps... mainly on the filler-thing.... the nut has a number on it. 
What kind of stamps are we looking for? And how should the numbers be?
Is there a code for different types of manufacturers like the Wehrmacht had?
byf..cra... and so on?
The neighbors only remember their parents speaking of a four engined aircraft crashing in daylight.... would that make it a usaaf aircraft versus british (night operations)?


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## seesul (Jan 21, 2008)

lesofprimus said:


> 800x600



...or 100 kB...


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## seesul (Jan 21, 2008)

Michael,

if that A/C went down in a day light and if it was a 4 engine bomber, an US A/C would be more logical, 15th USAF, B-24 or B-17. But it´s too soon for a decision...
Anyway, I´ve opened also a tread on another forum, where some of the members are also WW2 vets, some of them even flight engineers from B-17s and B-24s which have spare parts books in their heads, so I just wanted to increase your chance...8) 
So if you´re interested, resize your pictures that you wanna post yet to approx 100 kB and put them also here Request for help in identifying the A/C type


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## seesul (Jan 21, 2008)

FLYBOYJ said:


> Hard to say - it looks like a fuel filler neck.
> 
> Like Dan said, any part numbers or inspection stamps would help, espically if they are taken from airframe (aluminum) parts. Things like knobs, switches, and fluid fittings are standard parts and could go to any a number of aircraft.



Joe,

I like your siggy, *Czech* your six 
Could also be *Czech your sixpack*


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

Hi Roman,
thanks for the effort. I would like to post the pictures there, but the link won't work and my browser will not open the given adress.....

(I resized the pictures)


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## seesul (Jan 21, 2008)

justmic said:


> Hi Roman,
> thanks for the effort. I would like to post the pictures there, but the link won't work and my browser will not open the given adress.....
> 
> (I resized the pictures)



strange...anyway, go to 
The United States Army Air Forces in W.W.II, then
*The Forums* , then
Subforums- *Heavy and Very Hevy Bombers*
and the first thread is yours - *Request for help in idetifying A/C type*

and let me know if you got there...
If the link still doesn´t work, it is *armyairforces.com*


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## seesul (Jan 21, 2008)

OK Michael,

there´s a first answer at Request for help in identifying the A/C type
B-24 might be in the game...
Another pics would be great...
As I said, post them to mentioned forum as well so you´ll save my time spent by resizing your pics and putting there


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

I'll have to try from home this evening.... looks like the voestalpine doesn't allow the page to be opened, all I get is an Error 500 on The United States Army Air Forces in W.W.II

See you later....


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## seesul (Jan 21, 2008)

justmic said:


> I'll have to try from home this evening.... looks like the voestalpine doesn't allow the page to be opened, all I get is an Error 500 on The United States Army Air Forces in W.W.II
> 
> See you later....



Na ja, warum die Seite nicht angezeigt werden kann, weiss nur Gott 
Vielleicht am Server blockiert.
Back to English- I´m sure you´ll be able to get in on your home PC.


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 21, 2008)

seesul said:


> Joe,
> 
> I like your siggy, *Czech* your six
> Could also be *Czech your sixpack*


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

Ok, here are the new pictures of most of the parts we found....

@seesul, thanks for resizing the pictures, it works from the home pc....

Here's Part 3


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

Part 4


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

Part 5


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

part 5-2


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

Part 5-3


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

part 6


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

part 7-1 found in 30cm depth.... some kind of cloth, looks and feels a little like aramid or kevlar...very stiff


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

Part 7-2


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

Part 7-3


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

Part 7-4


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

Parts 8 to some


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

That was it till now, we have only just begun to search.... The site is 450 meters from our farmhouse....

I need a good metal detector (I bought mine for 45€ on ebay, bad stuff)... Any good ideas?

Next search will probably be this sunday...

Roman, will you post the pictures in the other website or should I (I haven't registered there yet, but that wouldn't be a problem)

Thanks
Michael


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 21, 2008)

Justmic - the oval part - does it appear to be an oval "rail" with rounded "nuts" riveted to it? 

The stiff "kevlar" type stuff may be fiberglass or even canvas.


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## Erich (Jan 21, 2008)

seriously this can be confirmed as shot down by Flak or heavy German a/c ? do we have a date and year yet for the downing ??

Gruß E ~


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

Flyboy,
thats exactly what it is like.... What do you think it could be? 

The stiff stuff is more like canvas with a thin coating on it...


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## justmic (Jan 21, 2008)

Erich,
no date or year yet...this will take a few weeks, we don't want to wake sleeping dogs here...
But it was definatly downed by the St. Valentin Flak...I will Post maps and area fotos tomorrow...


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## Erich (Jan 21, 2008)

I'll be waiting your findings, and the interest in the maps. I am assuming 8.8cm Flak ?


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 21, 2008)

justmic said:


> Flyboy,
> thats exactly what it is like.... What do you think it could be?
> 
> The stiff stuff is more like canvas with a thin coating on it...



I believe that oval piece is a fuel bay access on a B-24. PBYs had a similar part. It could be found on the B-24 lower wing. (see below)

The canvas could be insulation that was used around electrical load centers. I've been trying to find a photo of one on a B-24.


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## seesul (Jan 22, 2008)

justmic said:


> That was it till now, we have only just begun to search.... The site is 450 meters from our farmhouse....
> 
> I need a good metal detector (I bought mine for 45€ on ebay, bad stuff)... Any good ideas?
> 
> ...



Zum Befehl: pics resized and posted there.
Yes. Let the dogs sleep untill you dig it out all and then you tell us more about the crash site location...


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## justmic (Jan 22, 2008)

seesul said:


> Zum Befehl: pics resized and posted there.
> Yes. Let the dogs sleep untill you dig it out all and then you tell us more about the crash site location...



 

Thanx!!  

Will tell you all about the crash site, have to make a few fotos of the area first.... will probably have to wait till saturday (I leave in the dark and come home in the dark)

Maps will follow today

@erich: Yes it was 8.8 stationed in St. Valentin...
Furthermore the neighbor dug out some 2cm shells (around 20-30) a few years ago while digging a ditch... that was only about 600 Meters from the crash site.... They probably gave the B-?? the last hits.


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## justmic (Jan 22, 2008)

Here's a map of the crash site....


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## justmic (Jan 22, 2008)

Yep thats about it

The forrest is very steep and totaly viewable from the road above. 
Thats the stupid part about the site, almost everybody that saw us searching (about 10) stopped and wanted to know what we were doing, just out of curiosity. I said we were looking for the water pipeline leading to our house...
I doubt most believed us. 

There was another crash site where a twin engined aircraft was involved just north of us. There seems to be more information about that one. The aircraft came in low trailing smoke, dropped its ordnance (seemingly about 4-6 small bombs) in a row over fields and forrest, then crashed into the hill. That crash site was directly next to a farm about 1,5 klicks away from us. 
I don't know how much was salvaged there, but chances are most of the plane went into the ground (farm land).

Our crash site was filled with trees to the time, most of them over 100 year old beech and ash trees. I have absolutely no expierience with how a crash site in a forrest looks like. Most of the pieces we found are pretty torn up.

I still need ideas to a good metal detector...can anyone help?


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## seesul (Jan 22, 2008)

justmic said:


> Yep thats about it
> 
> The forrest is very steep and totaly viewable from the road above.
> Thats the stupid part about the site, almost everybody that saw us searching (about 10) stopped and wanted to know what we were doing, just out of curiosity. I said we were looking for the water pipeline leading to our house...
> ...



Friend of mine got White´s Prizm IV and is very satisfied with it White's Electronics - Prizm™ IV Metal Detector
There´s Fisher, Garret but it´s always a question of money.


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## seesul (Jan 22, 2008)

btw, one of your findigs has already been identified, see ArmyAirForces


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## justmic (Jan 22, 2008)

I have a date! I actually have two dates.... one of our unknown four engined aircraft and one of the other aircraft I described as having crashed north of us. This one seemed to be four engined too.

Our plane was shot down on the 25th of April 1945, 15 days before the war ended. It is written down in the history book of our village. It says, the plane had 9 crewman and they all jumped succesfully. The chutes landed near perg and mauthausen north of the Danube.

The second plane north of us (see a few replys back) crashed on the 24th of August 1944.... The flak tore the aircraft apart, the tail end hit the ground 1,5 klicks from us and the forward fuselage struck a farmhouse a few hundred yards away. All 10 crewman were killed, found and buried on the Haager cemetary.

I'd really like to know what type of plane it was and what name she had. Maybe someone even has photographs of her? Or both...

I will scan the pages tomorrow and page them here for reference. They are in German, although Roman and Erich doen't seem to have a problem with that.


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## seesul (Jan 23, 2008)

Hallo Michael,
go to MACR database The United States Army Air Forces in W.W.II , then MACR db and after putting your date you´ll find out how many and which type of the A/C were shot down.
Perhabs on April ´45 10 B-17´s and 10 B-24´s went down.
Print it out and you have something for the start. I´m sure Erich or someone else will help you yet.

Should you have some more pics, don´t hesitate to post them


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## justmic (Jan 23, 2008)

Good morning!

Thanks, will look in an hour or so. I'll put pictures up as soon as we find new parts and pieces.

Thanks to everyone for the help so far!

Michael


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## justmic (Jan 23, 2008)

Here's the reference dokument for the dates of the crashes..


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## seesul (Jan 23, 2008)

Michael,

do you know this book? It could help you:

Johann Ulrich
Der Luftkrieg über Österreich 1938-1945
Ziele in Österreich, Chronologischer Ablauf, Aktive und Passive Schutzmassnahmen, Auswirkungen, Statistiken, 68 Seiten.
Preis: EUR 7,90
erhältlich im Museumsshop (Heeresgeschichtliches Museum, Arsenal, A-1030 Wien) und im Buchhandel


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## justmic (Jan 23, 2008)

I will take a look at the book....thanx Roman  

I found something out on the net.... It looks like it could be our A/C...

B-24 Web Board

Its an old post from the year 2000 and very interesting because the fact that all crewmembers bailed out and were taken to Perg is the same as with our aircraft.

It seems that it was a brand new B-24 belonging to the 465 Gp, 782nd Sqdn

I already tried to contact the guy, will see if he's still kicking....

Michael


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## seesul (Jan 23, 2008)

justmic said:


> I will take a look at the book....thanx Roman
> 
> I found something out on the net.... It looks like it could be our A/C...
> 
> ...



Guess you got a chance.
2 B-24´s from 465 BG were shot down on that day. 44-49905 (MACR 13986) and 44-49914 (MACR 13987).
Hope Norman is still alive.
Did you send him an e-mail?


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## seesul (Jan 23, 2008)

The 465th BG historian is :
Gene Moxley
606 Lincoln Ct
Warrenton, Mo 63383-2819
Ph: 636-456-0921


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## seesul (Jan 23, 2008)

and something else:

*782nd Bomb Squadron Association*
Newsletter: "Flak Flimsy"
Dean Ottaway
16 Pine Street
Port Crane, N.Y. 13833
Phone: 607-648-5155
E-mail: *[email protected]*

source: Mission and History of the 15th AF-465th Bomb Gp (H) in Italy


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## seesul (Jan 23, 2008)

So, 44-49905 belonged to the 780thSqn, hit by flak and crashed near Pecs, Hungary, piloted by William G. Shreme. So this is not the plane you´re looking for.

The plane, what Norman spoke about, was B-24H ´Easy Maid´, 44-49914.
Check this Joseph Military
Ctrl+F will help you...
That could be your plane...


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## seesul (Jan 23, 2008)

Norman R. Stickney, before being shot down with ´Easy Maid´, which was brand new machine, also flew B-24H ´No Love No Nothin´, 42-52533

source: NO LOVE NO NOTHIN' (PIC 1)


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## seesul (Jan 23, 2008)

So, I got it,

here´s what Norman Stickney said about his mission:
_I served with Lt. Gemmato's crew on both NO LOVE NO NOTHIN' (42-52533) EASY MAID. EASY MAID was a new plane (1st mission) and we were shot down over Linz, Austria 25 Apr 45 (MACR 13967), on what I understand was the last mission of the war. I was one of the wounded and had a leg amputated in a German hospital. We also made a forced landing on the island of Vis in the Adriatic. Plane had so many shrapnel hits that it was beyond repair. Lt. Joe McGovern landed right after us. We also had to bail out over German territory in Yugoslavia and were picked up by Partisans. I had the occasion to meet Marshal Tito's chief of staff and was even asked to go on night patrols by the Partisans
_
Source:EASY MAID (V1) (PIC 3)

Norman is standing 2nd from left on the picture


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## seesul (Jan 23, 2008)

2 more pics of Easy Maid
I got a strong feeling the parts you have found and shown come from this machine.
Maybe I´m wrong, but it´s your turn now Michael...


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## justmic (Jan 23, 2008)

@ Roman: Good work!!! 

Really looks like it was the Easy Maid.

It seems there were 3 or 4 different Easy Maids attached to different units..

It's a little hard to differentiate between them.

I sent emails to all the people named above, maybe I'll get an answer soon. I'll will post anything new.

Any clue to the other plane?


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## justmic (Jan 23, 2008)

Oh, and I bought a Fisher F75 today....hope it's as good as they say....

Reactions: Bacon Bacon:
1 | Like List reactions


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## seesul (Jan 23, 2008)

justmic said:


> @ Roman: Good work!!!
> 
> Really looks like it was the Easy Maid.
> 
> ...



There were so many aircrafts flown in WW2 that was quite impossible to have other name for each machine. A lot of machines had the same name.
Anyway, you know the ser. Nr.,MACR, the crew so everything is clear. I only hope it is the machine you´re looking for, but I think so.
Hope someone will respond you soon. Also hope that Norman is still living!


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## seesul (Jan 23, 2008)

justmic said:


> Oh, and I bought a Fisher F75 today....hope it's as good as they say....



Congrats!
This one should be really good! Costs about 960 € here...
I´m sure you got a good helper.
Looking forward for the findings and their pics!


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## seesul (Jan 27, 2008)

Michael,

Norman *R*. Stickney is really your guy, see NO LOVE NO NOTHIN' (PIC 1)
Norman *V*. Stickney was a Mustang pilot serving with 51st FG, see In Memory of Norman V. Stickney


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## justmic (Jan 28, 2008)

Roman,

I have contact with Mr. Stickney and his flight engineer Mr. William Snow 
Both are alive and kicking! 
I wrote 22 emails to all kinds of email addresses I found on the web, yesterday Mr. William Snow answered:

"Dear Michael, My name is William Snow I was the flight engineer on the B-24 that was shot down on April 25th . Norman Stickney was the Co-Pilot. Norman asked me to contact you.....Norman forwarded your "E" Mail to me to see if I could work with you to identify the aircraft parts you have found. Yes, we were taken to Perg and put in the local jail. One of our crew members returned to Perg Austria with his wife sometime in the nineteen seventies and was greeted by the son of the policeman that had held us in the jail in 1945(small world).They spent two days together sight seeing and enjoying each other's company. Michael, if I had your phone number I would be able to help you identify the parts you have as of now..... My telephone number is ............. I hope we can solve this mystery, needless to say we are all very touched by your interest . Hope you get this ,Bill Snow"

I was very choked up after I read the mail... I still am absolutely stirred.  
Thanks to everybody who helped and was a part in this project. 

If you are interested I will continue to keep you updated on new events and post pics as soon as we go looking again.


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## wilbur1 (Jan 28, 2008)

Please do !! this has been a great story


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## FLYBOYJ (Jan 28, 2008)

Great stuff!


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## seesul (Jan 28, 2008)

justmic said:


> Roman,
> 
> I have contact with Mr. Stickney and his flight engineer Mr. William Snow
> Both are alive and kicking!
> ...



For sure Michael, keep us informed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know what you speak about as I know how much effort it cost me and my family to find out all the information about that guy in my siggy. Everything began with e-mails in 2004 and he visited me here in 2005 and 2007. We visited him in USA in 2006.
U N F O R G E T A B L E M O M E N T S!!!

Heartly congratulations from me! I wish some of the crew could visit you. It would got you in knees for sure....


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## Micdrow (Jan 28, 2008)

Awsome news, keep us informed


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## B-17engineer (Jan 28, 2008)

So i guess i missed it i was on vacation can someone summarize the plane and what it was hit by, good job guys 

Regards,
B-17enigneer


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## seesul (Jan 29, 2008)

B-17engineer said:


> So i guess i missed it i was on vacation can someone summarize the plane and what it was hit by, good job guys
> 
> Regards,
> B-17enigneer



there are 5 pages in this thread. Read them all from the page # 1 and you´ll have a picture.


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## seesul (Jul 24, 2008)

Hello Michael,

since a long period no news from you, could you keep us informed please?
I´m really curious!


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## ccheese (Jul 24, 2008)

Just discovered this thread..... quite moving ! I hope there is more to the story. 

Charles


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## seesul (Jul 25, 2008)

Yep, I sent a PM and e-mail to Micheal yesterday so let´s see if he will respond...
I hope so...


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## dar (Apr 20, 2018)

Hello,
I am new to the forum. My uncle's aircraft went down, 30 miles northeast of Salzburg on July 21, 1944. No survivors reported by the war department. No remains ever found. I have some more info if this is helpful.


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## pbehn (Apr 20, 2018)

dar said:


> Hello,
> I am new to the forum. My uncle's aircraft went down, 30 miles northeast of Salzburg on July 21, 1944. No survivors reported by the war department. No remains ever found. I have some more info if this is helpful.


I would suggest starting a thread, with as much information as you have, it is not clear from your post which service he fought for let alone aircraft type, squadron staffel etc.


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## tricci (Apr 26, 2018)

justmic said:


> Hi,
> I am from Austria and have discovered a crash site.
> Background:
> We bought a little farm north of the Alps not far from the Danube last summer. It turned out that, sometime from 1944 to 1945, a bomber which was shot down by the st. Valentin flak, crashed in our and our neighbors forrest. The neighbors remembered the fact and told uns one day that the plane was shot down during a raid against either Linz, Steyr or Wels.
> ...


HI Michael
I have been researching and digging in norden Italy and near the Alps north of Udine and Trento for sometime now. The aircrafts I am looking for that crashed in that area in and around a 200 km circle were mainly from the Foggia Airfields. I would be happy to see the pics of the crash site, along with a map of the area, the smaller details will deal after, I am not looking for scrap metal!, I am looking to close the loop and advice the families of the the aircraft crew of the findings,. I have USAF contact that help, once contacted and proof presented. Please write to me at [email protected], if you need more help. Thank you/Grazie


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