# Which Fw-190 ace shot down most P-51 and Spitfire?



## Chiron (Apr 23, 2005)

Anyone know  

Is it Heinz Bar? (just guess)


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## Chiron (Apr 24, 2005)




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## Nonskimmer (Apr 24, 2005)

Give it time, friend. It's only been overnight. Somebody here will know.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Apr 24, 2005)

but just to clarify, do you want the man that shot down the most spits and P-51s combined, or the man that shot down the single most spits and the man that shot dowm the single most P-51s??


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## Chiron (Apr 24, 2005)

"but just to clarify, do you want the man that shot down the most spits and P-51s combined, or the man that shot down the single most spits and the man that shot dowm the single most P-51s??"

Actually, its great if you can find both  

I just curious that some top aces scored such high # aircrafts in the East, but relatively low in the west. I wonder if it had to do with German initial advantage in both aircraft and in tactic to thier Soviet counterparts.

For example, Erich Hartmann had 345 in the East, but only 7 in the West.
Gerhard Barkhorn got all his 301 in East, none in the West.
Günther Rallh had 271 in East, and only 4 in the West.
Otto Kittel——“the Annihilator of Shturmovik”, got all his kill in the East, 267


Erich Rudorffer had a more balance record: 60 in the West, 26 in the Africa, and 138 in East front. 


The reason I said Heinz Bar as the best Fw-190 pilot, because he had most balance record of top 10 pilots: 79 in the West, 96 in the East, and 46 in Africa

Heinz Bär also had 3rd highest P-51 shot record in Germany, toal 10 of them. Since he used jet plane later on and had a record of 16 from his jet, he probably got all his P-51 from his jet (does anyone know how many P-51 and Spitfire he shot using non-jet plane? how many P-51 he got from his Fw-190?


By the way, did Heinz Bar always use number 13 on his plane? whats the reason behind that? and how come I saw one of his Fw-190 had 23 instead?


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 24, 2005)

I am not sure about 190 pilots I know against the spitfire Obst. Josef "Pips" Priller killed 68 Spitfires, making him he highest Spitfire killer but how many were in 109's and how many were in 190's I do not know. He was flying 190A-2's already in 1942 with III./JG 26. This would mean atleast 26 of them were with a Fw-190 between the dates of 27 March 1942 and 13 May 1943. During that same time he shot down 2 P-47's, 2 P-51's and 1 P-38.

For the P-51's it is pretty much the same as I can say above. I do not know how many were in 109's and how many were in 190's. I believe all of these were 190's but not sure.

Hauptmann Wilhelm Steinmann shot down 11 P-51's between 21 Jan 1944 and 18 Mar. 1945. He also shot down 7 P-47's, 4 Spitfires, 1 Typhoon, and 1 Mosquito.


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## Chiron (Apr 25, 2005)

"Josef "Pips" Priller killed 68 Spitfires, making him he highest Spitfire killer"

Wa, thats impressive, but he didnt make it into the top 10 ace


Anyone knows more details about Heinz Bar?


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## Kongo Otto (Apr 25, 2005)

Top 5 Spitfire Killers:

Oberst Josef "Pips" Priller 68
Hauptmann Josef "Sepp" Wurmheller 56
Major Hans "Assi" Hahn 53
Oberstleutnant Egon Mayer 51
Generalleutnant Adolf "Dolfo" Galland 50


Top 5 P-51 Killers:
Major Wilhelm Steinmann 12
Oberfeldwebel Heinrich Bartels 11
Oberstleutnant Heinz Bär 10
Hauptmann Franz Schall 10
Oberleutnant Wilhelm Hofmann 10



Biografie from Heinz Bär

Heinz Bär was born on 25th March 1913 in Sommerfeld, a city near Leipzig.
He joined the Reichswehr in April 1934,he was transferred to the new Luftwaffe at own request in 1935.
He became a Pilot on twin engined Modells.
He started the war as the Pilot of the JU-86 from JG 51.
He never wanted to be a fighter Pilot,but as the Pilots of JG 51 saw what
a Genius he was,they talked so long to him until he changed to Bf-109s
He shot down his first enemy at the 25th September 1939,it was the second air victory of JG 51
He added many more shot downs to his list until he was shot down 30 miles behind Sovjet lines,at 31st August 1941.He fought his way back to the German Lines.

On 1000 Missions he shot down 221 Aircraft ,including 16 4-engined and 16 victories on Me-262.
He was shot down 18 times.

Knights Cross 2nd July 1941
Oak Leaves 14th August 1941
Swords 16th February 1942
German Cross in Gold 8th June 1942
Ehrenpokal der Luftwaffe 8th June 1942

He died in an civilian Aircraft accident during an air show
in Braunschweig-Waggum 28th April 1957


Greets from Germany
Kongo Otto


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## Chiron (Apr 25, 2005)

Thanks, Kongo Otto

By the way, do you know how many P-51 he got from his Fw-190?


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## blackeagle_I (Apr 25, 2005)

Most of the Priller's kills was in Bf109. I think the some other JG26 guys were FW190 ace who shot down most P-51 and Spiftire, such as Glunz. Hoffmann.


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## Erich (Apr 26, 2005)

I think that if you study hard and long enough that you will find Herr Steinemann at the top of the list from his JG 4 days flying the Bf 109G


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## Chiron (Apr 26, 2005)

Herr Steinemann?

hows his record compare with Heinz Bär?

By the way, I couldnt find his bio. through search engine..............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 26, 2005)

Chiron said:


> Wa, thats impressive, but he didnt make it into the top 10 ace



He still got 101 kills in 1307 sorties on the West Front before he was placed into the position of Inspekteur der Jagdflieger Ost for which he did not fly again during the war. Thats pretty impressive I think.




Chiron said:


> Herr Steinemann?
> 
> hows his record compare with Heinz Bär?
> 
> By the way, I couldnt find his bio. through search engine..............



Didn't look to hard!  Just kidding actually it is in quite a few websites and lists him as the highest P-51 ace. Actually if you had read the post I posted up there about Priller I listed Steinmann as the highest ace against P-51's  Sorry I am just giving you a friendly hard time. 8) 

*Wilhelm Steinmann *



> Wilhelm Steinmann was born on 15 January 1912 at Nürnberg. He joined the Luftwaffe in 1936 and trained as a bomber pilot. Steinmann served with 3./KG 53 from 1939 to 1941. He later served as Technischer Offizier with II./Fliegerkorps. He then underwent conversion training to become a fighter pilot. On 6 October 1942, Steinmann was posted to the Gruppenstab of I./JG 27 based on the Channel front. He was serving with 3./JG 27 when he recorded his first victory on 18 May 1943, a RAF Typhoon fighter-bomber shot down over the Channel. On 1 June, Steinmann claimed a RAF Spitfire shot down. However, he had made a mistake in identification and had shot down a Bf 109 G-6 flown by the Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 27, Hauptmann Erich Hohagen (56 victories, RK). Hohagen was forced to bail out of his Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 16 391) but had been wounded in the incident. Hauptmann Steinmann was exiled to Romania to the staff of Jagdfliegerführer Rumänien as punishment. Steinmann was transferred to I./JG 4, based in Romania, in mid-June 1943. He shot down two USAAF B-24 four-engine bombers during the American raid on the Ploesti oil refineries on 1 August. On 14 September 1943, Steinmann was appointed Staffelkapitän of 1./JG 4 based in Italy. Steinmann was appointed Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 4 on 23 January 1944. He claimed 15 victories in this theatre, mainly fighters. Steinmann relinquished command of I./JG 4 to Hauptmann Walter Hoeckner (68 victories, RK, killed in action 25 August 1944) on 14 February 1944. Steinmann was re-appointed Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 4 based in Germany on Reichsverteidigung duties on 26 August 1944, following the death of Hauptmann Walter Hoeckner. On 18 December, Steinmann succeeded in shooting down a RAF Mosquito twin-engine bomber for his 29th victory. In March 1945, Steinmann transferred to III./EJG 2 and underwent conversion training to the Me 262 jet fighter. He recorded four victories operating the Me 262, including two USAAF B-17 four-engine bombers. Major Steinmann was awarded the Ritterkreuz on 28 March. Steinmann served the last few weeks of the war with JV 44. He survived the war but died on 1 August 1966 at Ansbach.
> Wilhelm Steinmann was credited with 44 victories in 234 missions. He recorded four victories over the Eastern front. Of his 40 victories recorded over the Western front, six were four-engine bombers, at least seven P-47 fighters and at least 11 P-51 fighters.
> 
> Victories : 44
> ...


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## Erich (Apr 26, 2005)

the best book on the man and there really isn't one but at least some interesting pics and some operations is volume 1 Sturmjäger, covering the start of JG 4. In French and also written in Deutch by Belgian author Eric Mombeek ...........

E ~


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 26, 2005)

Will have to check it out.


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## Erich (Apr 26, 2005)

Walter Dahl from his JG 300 days has been considered strongly as the highesst scoring ace against US fighters but my personal beliefs is that JG 300 is one of the most vocal units about claims-overclaiming of many of the single engine fighters units in the Luftwaffe. Have friends that would stab me if they read this but I feel it is true and that Walter was full of crap.............


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 27, 2005)

Why do you belive that JG3000 was one of the worst ones when it came to overclaiming.


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## Erich (Apr 27, 2005)

Adler :

my case in point. the CO of JG 300 Walter Dahl himself. It actually started on the first gefechtsverband with it's sister Sturm unit IV.Sturm/JG 3 on 7-7-44 during the Blitzschlacht über Oschersleben. while it was thought that Dahl committed himslef to the air battle he commanded from the ground with clear communication to IV.Sturm/JG 3's Gruppenkommandeur Willi Moritz during the setting up and carrying out of the attack. when the Sturm Fw pilots of IV.Sturm/JG 3 Walter Dahl was there to greet and congratualte them...........this is all on film which I have. Walter then as he had th scores added up made sure that Jg 300 pilots had their own scores {his unit} improved reatly for the days operation. but this is not the only one. all through July and even through the rest of the summer and fall months. the terrible slaughter of the US 445th bg on 27 September 44 comes to mind when JG 300 claimed a wild figure, and in reality the SturmFw's of IV.Sturm/JG 3 attacked first and took out 18 of the 30 B-24's with no SturmFw's being shot down by return bomber fire......

My firm belief though is that JG 300 during it's nachtjagd Wilde Sau and Helle Nacht against the LSNF Mossies is very much legit in scoring...

E ♪


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 27, 2005)

Aha I see.


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## Erich (Apr 27, 2005)

it's always one side vs the other as to whom claimed more when the Luftwaffe unit(s) were in a unified state. Many times JG 3 and JG 300 flew together and when JG 4 developed it's SturmFw gruppe in septmeber 44 then there was another contender.

Am sure the JG 300 two volumes when publicized this spring/fall will be illuminating although I am not going to concede that all claims-kills were done by this Geschwader when flying with other units, i.e JG 3, JG 4 and late in the fall-winter when JG 301 when is in the area although JG 301 and 300 were the main stay of Reich Defence in the winter of 45 till war's end


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Apr 28, 2005)

Plus there was the whole competiton thing by different units. Rivalry makes for competetive nature and if used properly better and more cohesive units.


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## P38 Pilot (Jun 22, 2005)

Hmmm......


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 23, 2005)

Its true believe it or not. Competition can be good or bad. If used properly it can bring good results if used bad it can make for a lot of mistakes. I see it still a lot today between the different flights in our unit.


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## the lancaster kicks ass (Jun 23, 2005)

cometiton mostly in the form of sport is still a huge part of the military today.........


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## Erich (Jun 23, 2005)

side note on Steinemann: I do believe that all fighter kills were in the Bf 109


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 24, 2005)

As I said I coudl not confirm what was in a Bf-109 or a Fw-190 just who had the most kills.


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## ricardo (Jun 24, 2005)

There is no doubt that JOSEF "PIPS" PRILLER was the slaughter of the Spitfires (68) and WILHELM STEINMAN punished hard the P-51s (11).


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Jun 25, 2005)

Priller shot down 68 Spitfires, yes.


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## Killer clive (Nov 3, 2008)

In the air battles over North Africa one luftwaffe ace scored over 150 victories before he died bailing out of his Me-109 after it developed engine problems/fire. I am not totally sure of the spelling but Jochaim Mariselle would be pretty close. So since all of his victories would have been over pilots of the RAF or allies he must be the most successful fighter pilot against "Western" allies in WWII.


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## FLYBOYJ (Nov 3, 2008)

Killer clive said:


> In the air battles over North Africa one luftwaffe ace scored over 150 victories before he died bailing out of his Me-109 after it developed engine problems/fire. I am not totally sure of the spelling but Jochaim Mariselle would be pretty close. So since all of his victories would have been over pilots of the RAF or allies he must be the most successful fighter pilot against "Western" allies in WWII.


Count em up....

Hans-Joachim Marseille - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW Marseille flew a 109. This about Fw 190 drivers.


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## Njaco (Nov 3, 2008)

Marseilles, as Flyboy said flew the Bf 109. The Fw 190 I don't think even made it to the MTO until after his death in Sept 42.


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## DerAdlerIstGelandet (Nov 4, 2008)

Killer clive said:


> In the air battles over North Africa one luftwaffe ace scored over 150 victories before he died bailing out of his Me-109 after it developed engine problems/fire. I am not totally sure of the spelling but Jochaim Mariselle would be pretty close. So since all of his victories would have been over pilots of the RAF or allies he must be the most successful fighter pilot against "Western" allies in WWII.



One thing though, he did not fly the Fw 190.


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## onlyforbrian (Oct 15, 2019)

Here's an interesting act I just learned that I did not know. Americans counting their P51 scores are a bit skewed because they counted parked planes they took out in a strafing run as a "Kill". Germans would never think of doing such a thing.


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## FLYBOYJ (Oct 15, 2019)

onlyforbrian said:


> Here's an interesting act I just learned that I did not know. Americans counting their P51 scores are a bit skewed because they counted parked planes they took out in a strafing run as a "Kill". Germans would never think of doing such a thing.


FYI - this thread is 9 years old but that's ok. The Americans only scored parked aircraft as kills in Europe and were later broken out separately, this was well known for years. In the PTO this was not done. Yea, the Germans would never do such a thing but like the allies there were many discrepancies in their claims as well.

Reactions: Agree Agree:
2 | Like List reactions


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## Bernhart (Oct 15, 2019)

wonder how many of those spitfires were hurricanes?


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